From: IN%"jcooper@lincoln.ac.uk" "Jonathan Cooper" 1-APR-2003 04:49:15.54 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"isaenet-l@usask.ca" "'isaenet-l@usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Job Oportunity Research Assistant - poultry behaviour (Maternity cover) Salary =A311,962 - =A316,520 per annum Ref: HLS1013 This research assistantship is available to work with Dr. Jonathan = Cooper at the Department of Biological Sciences, University of Lincoln, as part = of a DEFRA funded project on Modified Cages for Laying Hens. The project is collaborative with Roslin Institute, the University of Bristol, and = ADAS Gleadthorpe. There will be two main aspects to the work of the research assistant. Firstly, behavioural observations are to be made of hens housed under commercial conditions at Gleadthorpe in Nottinghamshire. This will = involve making both direct and video records of behaviour. Second, the = assistant will carry out experimental work at University of Lincoln's Riseholme = campus to investigate the stocking density preferences of laying hens. Again, direct and video recording will be used, to be followed by computer and statistical analysis. For this position the successful applicant will require post-graduate experience in the collection, analysis and presentation of behavioural = data, have a degree in animal or biological sciences and preferably a PhD in animal behaviour or related sciences. The position will be a fixed term contract for a period of the current post-holders maternity leave.=20 For further details and an application form, please request an = information pack by specifying job title, reference number HLS1013 and your return contact address to jobs@lincoln.ac.uk. Alternatively telephone 01522 886629, fax your request through on 01522 886771, or write to the Human Resources Department, Brayford Pool, Lincoln, LN6 7TS. Closing Date: 11 April 2003 Informal enquiries can also be directed to myself, but I will be at the = UFAW conference in Edinburgh until Monday 6th April. Dr Jonathan Cooper Animal Behaviour, Cognition and Welfare Research Group, Department of Biological Sciences University of Lincoln Riseholme Park Lincoln LN2 2LG 01522 895276 www.lincoln.ac.uk/lsa/staff/j-cooper.htm=20 From: IN%"info@rewardingdogs.com" "MG" 1-APR-2003 10:54:49.84 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: Preditor Control From recent discussion it seems there is a wealth of practical experience - John & Margory especially - in the care & training of sight hounds, long-dogs, lurchers and others with a strong instinctive chase instinct. As a behaviourist I am often asked to help owners who have taken on adult rescue dogs of this type. There are many such dogs taken in by rehoming centres or just dumped, usually because previous owners couldn't cope with their needs and didn't understand them (or indeed didn't understand dogs at all, which is an increasing problem). Do those of you who deal with these dogs have any wisdom to pass on about the "rehabilitation" of adult animals. Of course they are often in the wrong hands and the wrong enviroment when I see them, but the rescue people have difficulty in finding homes for them and, perhaps understandably, feel any loving home is better than the alternatives. So it is largely the art of the possible where the new owners love them dearly but don't know how to cope with their chase aggression etc. Sometimes I think euthanasia is preferable for these sensitive creatures rather than the dog being passed from home to home, becoming stressed out of its mind in the process. My approach is usually 2-fold. First, try to improve the relationship, to get mutual respect between dog & owner (dog being the junior partner). Second, to demonstrate the mechanics of teaching the dog not to chase (at least not to chase domestic animals) - often easier said than done. Any suggestions on exactly WHAT to do and details of HOW to do it would be very welcome. Mike Grantham From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 2-APR-2003 12:55:28.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Predator control margory cohen wrote: > John Burchard, Friday, March 28, 2003 2:02 PM, after margory's note about > training - > > > > > Well, no, there was little or no training involved. It was something the hounds > > did spontaneously. Because the cats were part of the family, they were > > accepted, while other non-tame cats were still regarded as prey. > > > > Such things depend on two abilities - the ability to classify things into > > categories, and the ability to generalize classes of things. I suspect the > > extent of those abilities in many species of animals is currently rather > > underestimated. > > margory here: > Hi John, > I think actually I meant the same as you are saying here. > Training often when I write to it is hardly literal and in that particular > instance not even personal. I understand "training" to mean some kind of organized program intended to bring about more or less specific and describable learning tasks. In that sense no training was involved, and not much learning either. It was more in the nature of the dog evaluating the sitation and making what it is difficult not to call an "informed decision" about how to respond. Here another anecdote, concerning my "Bear" whom you have met at Pescadero. We were hunting in Wyoming, several years ago, when he was challenged by a Pronghorn buck and lit out in pursuit (Pronghorn will often come right up to a hound and challenge it to chase them ... of course no hound can catch a healthy Pronghorn, it is a game for the Pronghorn though not necessarily for the hound). Anyway they disappeared over a distant ridge and my hound did not reappear. After a while I became concerned and we instituted a search action involving several groups of people, vehicles, CB radios, cell phones etc. Meanwhile, unbeknownst to me, Bear had hitched a ride with a passing motorist while on his way back to me (but still more than seven miles distant!). The lady took Bear home to her house in Casper, 100 miles away. In due course, by dint of a phone number on his identifying "blanket" and phone calls from Casper to New York State, some Internet communication, and further phone calls from California to Wyoming , I learned the whereabouts of my hound and went to collect him. By the time I arrived it was evening, and dark. The tableau which greeted my eyes, as I walked up the path and looked through the glass door, had Bear relaxing in the middle of the livingroom carpet, surrounded by three admiring cats, while the children of the house worked on their music lessons. Now Bear is a versatile and experienced hunter, but had never previously encountered a domestic cat. He obviously took them in stride as just part of the new domestic scenery. Both he and the cats were completely at ease when I walked in. The only stress in the situation was manifested by the family's Golden Retriever bitch, who was a bit miffed that the interloper was getting so much attention . John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 2-APR-2003 19:44:49.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology@Skyway.Usask.Ca" CC: Subj: Preditor Control Mike Granthan, Tuesday, 4.1.03: From recent discussion it seems there is a wealth of practical experience - John & Margory especially - in the care & training of sight hounds, long-dogs, lurchers and others with a strong instinctive chase instinct. As a behaviourist I am often asked to help owners who have taken on adult rescue dogs of this type. There are many such dogs taken in by rehoming centres or just dumped, usually because previous owners couldn't cope with their needs and didn't understand them (or indeed didn't understand dogs at all, which is an increasing problem). Do those of you who deal with these dogs have any wisdom to pass on about the "rehabilitation" of adult animals. // My approach is usually 2-fold. First, try to improve the relationship, to get mutual respect between dog & owner (dog being the junior partner). Second, to demonstrate the mechanics of teaching the dog not to chase (at least not to chase domestic animals) - often easier said than done. Any suggestions on exactly WHAT to do and details of HOW to do it would be very welcome. &&&&&&&&&& margory here: Hello. Will watch for John Burchard on this but offer some disjointed notes. (I think all of us even as we carry on as normal as possible, life now is hardly normal. Point of view on the war in Iraq notwithstanding, when I read today Arundhati Roy in The Guardian, the headline and opening sentence wrapped up for me much of what I've been thinking: ("Mesopotamia. Babylon. The Tigris and Euphrates. How many children, in how many classrooms, over how many centuries, have hang-glided through the past, transported on the wings of these words? .....") My 2 fold is a little different: I work on _trust_ and I work on recall. Depending on the breed of the sighthound you encounter, I have some starter suggestions: First and foremost, I think it's owner expectations that more than anything would require immediate instruction and perhaps revision, as you've suggested: These are dogs who are fast, agile, athletic and need good sound safe free running exercise. A tired hound is easy to teach, too. I don't think one trains out a desire to chase. One teaches to come when called, or to stop or change direction when so instructed, by command (word or name or even an "unt" sound). What is described in yours as "chase aggression," is to me not the kind of aggression I worry about and would honestly question an owner hard who so accuses the dog. -- These dogs run because they LOVE it. Sometimes when they do course another dog for instance, it's really honest dog play, so one really needs to education a new owner of what is play and what isn't. Depending on where you are, I bet would could find people involved with Deerhound rescue and/or lurcher rescue if those be the breeds you meet (tho I suspect not much in the way of Deerhound rescue) so at least more informed homes become known to you. If you meet retired racing greyhounds, 3 specific notes: a.. These dogs do not "sit" so well most times; not because they can't but it's not been part of their education, and also anatomically, the teaching has to take into account those thighs and backs. b.. These dogs do not automatically know how to manage stairs. c.. These dogs should be titered for ticks and lyme disease, at least in the States. Tone of voice is all important, owner showing respect without intimidation is important. I practice random recall for months with young pups and even did this with 2 males who came to me when they were 3 and 4. And always always no exception, it's a great thing, coming in on "Cally come." "Aurora now." Always great. If I plan to trim nails for instance, I go to them. "Cally come" is always terrific. Initially, suggest owner kneels down and says "Bowser come." Later, ok standing up, but hovering or leaning over -- I don't recommend. One wants a balanced relationship, I believe. Partners. (I once caught a runaway Border Collie this same way.) As to step-by-step -- I do guerilla training; am a member of a professional trainers organization as an Affiliate Member; I write and study and privately work with some owners but I do not make my money by dog training and whilst I'm happy to knock out some suggestions, I would rather introduce you to expert trainer I admire beyond many others who rehabilitiates all kinds of dogs and has available a week-by-week step-by-step training outline that I think is hard to beat. My general experience is that these dogs are quick to grasp when they've landed on an authentic gravy train. But that means an owner is really gonna put in the time to teach and expose and work with a second hand dog. I think the first step in this rehoming process falls on the owner, not the dog. As always, John Burchard will inspire me to think of more stuff. Thanks for yours. You made me remember hounds I know whose second chance was Gold. -margory cohen Scottish Deerhounds San Francisco, CA, US --Frank Sheardown has a good book on Longdogs I recommend. He writes to training in that book. From: IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk" "Francis Burton" 3-APR-2003 03:40:22.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Behaviourist (was Re: Preditor Control) At 17:43 02/04/03 -0800, margory cohen wrote: >instinct. As a behaviourist I am often asked to help owners who have taken One sees the word "behaviourist" used in a variety of contexts these days. I was wondering if the experts on this list would like to comment on what is considered correct usage. For example, is it limited to those who subscribe to the school of thought of "behaviorism" a la Watson and Skinner - considering learning to be no more than a simple set of stimulus-response actions without any "inner mental life", thought, or such things as desires and goals? Or does it encompass everyone whose business is (applied) behaviour? Francis From: IN%"mondelli@biol.unipr.it" "Francesca Mondelli" 3-APR-2003 08:20:57.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: How to colour dogs' poo Hi everybody. I was wondering if there's anybody who can give me some clues on how I can distinguish one dog's poo from another dog's. I think I can add something to one's food, but what? Thank you. Francesca -- ******************************************************************************* dott.ssa Francesca Mondelli Istituto di Psicologia - Facoltà di Medicina Università degli Studi di Milano Italy Tel. +39 0521 905671 Fax. +39 0521 905657 ******************************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ From: IN%"dmills@lincoln.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" 3-APR-2003 08:27:27.79 To: IN%"mondelli@biol.unipr.it" "'Francesca Mondelli'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: How to colour dogs' poo use shavings of non toxic coloured crayons Daniel Mills BVSc MRCVS Principal Lecturer in Behavioural Studies and Animal Welfare University of Lincoln Animal Behaviour, Cognition and Welfare Group Riseholme Park Lincoln LN2 2LG tel 44 (0)1522 895356 e-mail dmills@lincoln.ac.uk -----Original Message----- From: Francesca Mondelli [mailto:mondelli@biol.unipr.it] Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 3:20 PM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: How to colour dogs' poo Hi everybody. I was wondering if there's anybody who can give me some clues on how I = can=20 distinguish one dog's poo from another dog's. I think I can add = something to one's food, but what? Thank you. Francesca --=20 ************************************************************************= **** *** dott.ssa Francesca Mondelli Istituto di Psicologia - Facolt=E0 di Medicina Universit=E0 degli Studi di Milano Italy Tel. +39 0521 905671 Fax. +39 0521 905657 ************************************************************************= **** *** ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ From: IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com" 3-APR-2003 20:07:25.57 To: IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk" "Francis Burton", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Behaviourist Hi all, I think Francis has asked an interesting question and I, too, would be curious to hear what the bona fide behaviorists on the list have to say. Speaking of which, this seems an opportune time to ask a related question: at what point does one earn the right to call him or herself a "behaviorist"? I ask, because in my field (working with horses), it seems to have become trendy to wake up one morning and reinvent yourself as an "equine behaviorist" or "animal behaviorist" in the absence of any academic training whatsoever. One case in point is a guy I once ordered off my property after he got abusive with one of my horses; I was surfing the web not too long after that, and discovered that he had put up a webpage and was now calling himself an "animal behaviorist" and selling a home-made videotape of his version of roundpen training. This is a person with no education past highschool, and I'd be amazed if he had even a basic knowledge of psychology. It seems a bit fraudulent, or at the very least, misleading. Does anyone control the use of these labels? I am presently pursuing graduate study in animal behavior, and though I've been a horse trainer for over fifteen years, was a psych major as an undergrad, and have read extensively on the subject of equine behavior, I'd still feel very uncomfortable giving myself the label of "equine behaviorist" prior to completing the proper academic work. An increasing number of others, however, seem to have no such hesitation; I see ads for people I know personally--some of whom aren't even particularly competent trainers--who are now doing this. I also see the label tossed around pretty freely in magazines, as if all that is required is a one-time, passing interest in horses. Doesn't "animal behaviorist" indicate a certain preparatory background, like "veterinarian", or "doctor"? Thanks for any input. Amy Coffman Colbert, OK USA --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ From: IN%"hmcmurra@elp.rr.com" "heather mcmurray" 3-APR-2003 23:57:15.13 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com" CC: Subj: RE: Behaviourist Hi, there is now a certification process for animal behavioralists through the Animal Behavior Society, IN. It is pretty tough; yet it allows you to be certified as an animal behavioralist and have no/little training in taxonomy/evolution/classic-ethology. Or zoology. From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D.B. Cameron" 4-APR-2003 12:26:42.60 To: IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Behaviourist If one is speaking English, "ist", as defined by Websters New 20th Century Dictionary, is a noun suffix meaning one who practices, or is occupied with, or a believer in; as in evangelist, pianist, abolitionist, theorist. Thus a behaviorist is one who practices, is occupied with, or is a believer in behavior as an area of study or other concern. If one is speaking American Veterinary Medicine, a behaviorist is limited to a board certified (ACVB) person who practices animal behavior. DBC On Thu, 03 Apr 2003 20:07:13 +0000 (US/Central) acofmart@cherokeetel.com writes: > Hi all, > > I think Francis has asked an interesting question and I, too, > would be > curious to hear what the bona fide behaviorists on the list have to > say. > Speaking of which, this seems an opportune time to ask a related > question: > at what point does one earn the right to call him or herself > a "behaviorist"? > > I ask, because in my field (working with horses), it seems to have > > become trendy to wake up one morning and reinvent yourself as an > "equine > behaviorist" or "animal behaviorist" in the absence of any academic > > training whatsoever. One case in point is a guy I once ordered off > my > property after he got abusive with one of my horses; I was surfing > the web > not too long after that, and discovered that he had put up a webpage > and > was now calling himself an "animal behaviorist" and selling a > home-made > videotape of his version of roundpen training. This is a person with > no > education past highschool, and I'd be amazed if he had even a basic > > knowledge of psychology. It seems a bit fraudulent, or at the very > least, > misleading. > > Does anyone control the use of these labels? > > I am presently pursuing graduate study in animal behavior, and > though > I've been a horse trainer for over fifteen years, was a psych major > as an > undergrad, and have read extensively on the subject of equine > behavior, > I'd still feel very uncomfortable giving myself the label of "equine > > behaviorist" prior to completing the proper academic work. > > An increasing number of others, however, seem to have no such > hesitation; I see ads for people I know personally--some of whom > aren't > even particularly competent trainers--who are now doing this. I also > see > the label tossed around pretty freely in magazines, as if all that > is > required is a one-time, passing interest in horses. > > Doesn't "animal behaviorist" indicate a certain preparatory > background, > like "veterinarian", or "doctor"? > > Thanks for any input. > > Amy Coffman > Colbert, OK USA > > > > > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. > http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ > > > > ^ ^ D. B. Cameron, DVM Animal Behavior Clinic < \ / > 15353 N. Bloomfield Road Nevada City, CA 95959 ! ! 530.265.9341 .. Ships are safe in harbor . . . But that is not what ships are for. From: IN%"jon.watts@usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 4-APR-2003 13:20:48.36 To: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D.B. Cameron" CC: IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Behaviourist > If one is speaking American Veterinary Medicine, a behaviorist is limited > to a board certified (ACVB) person who practices animal behavior. > So how does one practice animal behaviour? By mooing perhaps... Jon From: IN%"Gerflannigan@aol.com" 4-APR-2003 13:38:14.79 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Behaviourist In a message dated 4/4/2003 12:00:16 AM Central Standard Time, hmcmurra@elp.rr.com writes: > Hi, there is now a certification process for animal behavioralists through > the Animal Behavior Society, IN. It is pretty tough; yet it allows you to > be certified as an animal behavioralist and have no/little training in > taxonomy/evolution/classic-ethology. Or zoology. I believe that you may be confused with your post. The Animal Behavior Society will certify Associate Applied Animal Behaviorists and Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists but only for academically trained individuals with the associate having a master's degree and the certified with either a Ph.D. or a veterinary degree. It also requires fairly stringent course requirements and clinical experience. If you want more information try: http://www.animalbehavior.org/Applied/Pamph3N-Jan2002.htm Gerry _________________________________________________________________ Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc Carolina Veterinary Specialists Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina 336-632-0605 (Voice) 336-632-0703 (Fax) gerflannigan@aol.com From: IN%"hmcmurra@elp.rr.com" "heather mcmurray" 4-APR-2003 16:01:22.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"Gerflannigan@aol.com" CC: Subj: RE: Behaviourist Hi, no I was not confused. The requirements include that the person have [x] number of hours in ethology *or* animal behavior courses and a biology *or* behavioral degree (ms or phd) . It does not require a background in evolutionary or taxonomic studies and zoology. A person studying to become a vet for instance, would take pre-med type classes: chemistry, math, anatomy, physiology, perhaps an ethology class, genetics, embryology and statistics. A person can go through a psychology advanced degree and never study zoology or learn taxonomy. The point I was trying to make is that the Animal behavior society certifies MS and PhD as "behavioralists" and does not require the same background for those folk as was required for classic ethologists. So, a lot of what the classic ethologists tried to accomplish with their work is getting lost in the translation. Konrad Lorenz's classic large table-top book about the greylag goose is out of print. Would it be out of print if we had more classically trained ethologists? "Certification does not constitute a guarantee that the applicant meets a specific standard of competence or possesses specific knowledge" (from the guidelines at the link you provided) - Heather ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Behaviourist > In a message dated 4/4/2003 12:00:16 AM Central Standard Time, > hmcmurra@elp.rr.com writes: > > > Hi, there is now a certification process for animal behavioralists through > > the Animal Behavior Society, IN. It is pretty tough; yet it allows you > to > > be certified as an animal behavioralist and have no/little training in > > taxonomy/evolution/classic-ethology. Or zoology. > > I believe that you may be confused with your post. The Animal Behavior > Society will certify Associate Applied Animal Behaviorists and Certified > Applied Animal Behaviorists but only for academically trained individuals > with the associate having a master's degree and the certified with either a > Ph.D. or a veterinary degree. It also requires fairly stringent course > requirements and clinical experience. If you want more information try: > > http://www.animalbehavior.org/Applied/Pamph3N-Jan2002.htm > > Gerry > > _________________________________________________________________ > Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc > Carolina Veterinary Specialists > Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina > 336-632-0605 (Voice) > 336-632-0703 (Fax) > gerflannigan@aol.com > From: IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu" "Friend, Theodore H." 4-APR-2003 16:54:48.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Behaviourist certification There is another certification program available that is through APRAS. A few years ago the ABS program was exploring the possibility of combining with ARPAS, but I have been out of the loop on that development. A Board certification is also available. The emphasis is toward applied ethology. You can check it out at:http://www.arpas.org/members/cert.html Ted Friend -----Original Message----- From: heather mcmurray [mailto:hmcmurra@elp.rr.com] Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 4:01 PM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca; Gerflannigan@aol.com Subject: Re: Behaviourist Hi, no I was not confused. The requirements include that the person have [x] number of hours in ethology *or* animal behavior courses and a biology *or* behavioral degree (ms or phd) . It does not require a background in evolutionary or taxonomic studies and zoology. A person studying to become a vet for instance, would take pre-med type classes: chemistry, math, anatomy, physiology, perhaps an ethology class, genetics, embryology and statistics. A person can go through a psychology advanced degree and never study zoology or learn taxonomy. The point I was trying to make is that the Animal behavior society certifies MS and PhD as "behavioralists" and does not require the same background for those folk as was required for classic ethologists. So, a lot of what the classic ethologists tried to accomplish with their work is getting lost in the translation. Konrad Lorenz's classic large table-top book about the greylag goose is out of print. Would it be out of print if we had more classically trained ethologists? "Certification does not constitute a guarantee that the applicant meets a specific standard of competence or possesses specific knowledge" (from the guidelines at the link you provided) - Heather ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Behaviourist > In a message dated 4/4/2003 12:00:16 AM Central Standard Time, > hmcmurra@elp.rr.com writes: > > > Hi, there is now a certification process for animal behavioralists through > > the Animal Behavior Society, IN. It is pretty tough; yet it allows you > to > > be certified as an animal behavioralist and have no/little training in > > taxonomy/evolution/classic-ethology. Or zoology. > > I believe that you may be confused with your post. The Animal Behavior > Society will certify Associate Applied Animal Behaviorists and Certified > Applied Animal Behaviorists but only for academically trained individuals > with the associate having a master's degree and the certified with either a > Ph.D. or a veterinary degree. It also requires fairly stringent course > requirements and clinical experience. If you want more information try: > > http://www.animalbehavior.org/Applied/Pamph3N-Jan2002.htm > > Gerry > > _________________________________________________________________ > Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc > Carolina Veterinary Specialists > Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina > 336-632-0605 (Voice) > 336-632-0703 (Fax) > gerflannigan@aol.com > From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D.B. Cameron" 4-APR-2003 18:11:06.82 To: IN%"Gerflannigan@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Behaviourist On Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:37:56 -0500 (EST) Gerflannigan@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 4/4/2003 12:00:16 AM Central Standard Time, > hmcmurra@elp.rr.com writes: > > > Hi, there is now a certification process for animal behavioralists > through > > the Animal Behavior Society, IN. > (snip) > I believe that you may be confused with your post. The Animal > Behavior > Society will certify Associate Applied Animal Behaviorists and > Certified > Applied Animal Behaviorists but only for academically trained > individuals > with the associate having a master's degree and the certified with > either a > Ph.D. or a veterinary degree. It also requires fairly stringent > course > requirements and clinical experience. > > Gerry > I well aware that the ABS is a fine, professional organization that certifies only qualified people, but I did not address the Animal Behavior Society's attitude about the word "behaviorist" as I do not know what their attitude is. I did report the American Veterinary Medicine attitude as I am 99% sure that what I said is correct. I was just reporting the facts as I understood them. If I am wrong about the veterinary world, I am sorry. DBC ^ ^ D. B. Cameron, DVM Animal Behavior Clinic < \ / > 15353 N. Bloomfield Road Nevada City, CA 95959 ! ! 530.265.9341 .. Ships are safe in harbor . . . But that is not what ships are for. From: IN%"mad@nofeardavis.org" "Maren Plagens" 4-APR-2003 19:09:13.64 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: late pregnacy spays I was wondering if anyone has done / seen any studies of even anticdotal evidence of negative mental or behavioral effects of a termination of a pregnacy (late term) I am specifically curious about cats and dogs but if there is any other animal this has been studied in I would be curious. Maren Plagens Friend, Theodore H. wrote: >There is another certification program available that is through APRAS. A few years ago the ABS program was exploring the possibility of combining with ARPAS, but I have been out of the loop on that development. A Board certification is also available. The emphasis is toward applied ethology. You can check it out at:http://www.arpas.org/members/cert.html > >Ted Friend > > >-----Original Message----- >From: heather mcmurray [mailto:hmcmurra@elp.rr.com] >Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 4:01 PM >To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca; Gerflannigan@aol.com >Subject: Re: Behaviourist > > >Hi, no I was not confused. The requirements include that the person have >[x] number of hours in ethology *or* animal behavior courses and a biology >*or* behavioral degree (ms or phd) . It does not require a background in >evolutionary or taxonomic studies and zoology. A person studying to >become a vet for instance, would take pre-med type classes: chemistry, math, >anatomy, physiology, perhaps an ethology class, genetics, embryology and >statistics. A person can go through a psychology advanced degree and never >study zoology or learn taxonomy. > >The point I was trying to make is that the Animal behavior society certifies >MS and PhD as "behavioralists" and does not require the same background for >those folk as was required for classic ethologists. So, a lot of what the >classic ethologists tried to accomplish with their work is getting lost in >the translation. Konrad Lorenz's classic large table-top book about the >greylag goose is out of print. Would it be out of print if we had more >classically trained ethologists? > >"Certification does not constitute a guarantee that the applicant meets a >specific standard of competence or possesses specific knowledge" (from the >guidelines at the link you provided) >- Heather > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 12:37 PM >Subject: Re: Behaviourist > > > > >>In a message dated 4/4/2003 12:00:16 AM Central Standard Time, >>hmcmurra@elp.rr.com writes: >> >> >> >>>Hi, there is now a certification process for animal behavioralists >>> >>> >through > > >>> the Animal Behavior Society, IN. It is pretty tough; yet it allows >>> >>> >you > > >>to >> >> >>> be certified as an animal behavioralist and have no/little training in >>> taxonomy/evolution/classic-ethology. Or zoology. >>> >>> >>I believe that you may be confused with your post. The Animal Behavior >>Society will certify Associate Applied Animal Behaviorists and Certified >>Applied Animal Behaviorists but only for academically trained individuals >>with the associate having a master's degree and the certified with either >> >> >a > > >>Ph.D. or a veterinary degree. It also requires fairly stringent course >>requirements and clinical experience. If you want more information try: >> >>http://www.animalbehavior.org/Applied/Pamph3N-Jan2002.htm >> >>Gerry >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc >>Carolina Veterinary Specialists >>Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina >>336-632-0605 (Voice) >>336-632-0703 (Fax) >>gerflannigan@aol.com From: IN%"jraustin@telusplanet.net" "Jackie Wepruk & Rick Austin" 5-APR-2003 09:19:56.82 To: IN%"mad@nofeardavis.org" "Maren Plagens", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: late pregnacy spays We had a mass rescue situation with Siberian Huskies year before last and took a female in to be spayed who was due to whelp in two weeks (from the vet's opinion of the pups development). She had no apparent negative mental or behavioural effects and we could not believe how she bounced out of the vet's office after the surgery. She looked and acted fantastically. We had our reasons for not letting her have the pups, so please, no judgments on what we did. Jackie Wepruk ----- Original Message ----- From: Maren Plagens Cc: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 5:17 PM Subject: late pregnacy spays > I was wondering if anyone has done / seen any studies of even anticdotal > evidence of negative mental or behavioral effects of a termination of a > pregnacy (late term) I am specifically curious about cats and dogs but > if there is any other animal this has been studied in I would be curious. > Maren Plagens From: IN%"hmcmurra@elp.rr.com" "heather mcmurray" 5-APR-2003 14:16:32.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: OT: TX legislation -- if you live near Austin TX Hi, TX HB433 has been resurrected as TXHB 2510 and critical action is needed 4/10 in Austin. This bill would make animal welfare action illegal. If you live close enough to Austin please email me. From: IN%"e.creighton@chester.ac.uk" "Emma Creighton" 7-APR-2003 05:55:36.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Clinically certified Animal Behaviourists Dear All, The problem of who is and who can claim the title of an animal behaviour cousellor has caused some concern in the UK for a while. ASAB has taken the lead (in collaboration with the Royal College of Vetinary Surgeons, the British Psychological Society and the International Society for Applied Ethology) in devising a certification process leading to certification as a clinical animal behaviourist (see http://www.societies.ncl.ac.uk/asab/accreditation/ Certification requires education to Honours Degree standard or higher in a biological or behavioural science, including appropriate elements of zoology, physiology, psychology, clinical techniques and research methods. Plus experiential requirements based on evidence of significant experience of working under the supervision of several CCABs in a clinical setting. At present the scheme does not cover horses, so Amy's concerns are yet to be tackled on this side of the Atlantic. Emma. Dr Emma Creighton Senior Lecturer in Animal Behaviour & Welfare Department of Biological Sciences Chester College Chester CH1 4BJ Tel: 01244 375 444 Fax: 01244 392 781 Email: E.Creighton@chester.ac.uk From: IN%"wickens@ufaw.org.uk" "Stephen Wickens" 7-APR-2003 07:36:59.40 To: IN%"e.creighton@chester.ac.uk" "Emma Creighton", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Clinically certified Animal Behaviourists Dear All. To correct the posting below, the new accreditation scheme just launched by the UK's Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour for certification as a clinical animal behaviourist does cover horses or any animal that is capable of being treated for a behaviour problem. The scheme seeks to recognise individuals possessing the skills, practical experience and success in dealing with problems in any species identified by the applicant. Further details of the scheme are to be found by visiting the ASAB website - www.asab.org. Stephen Wickens, PhD Development Officer Universities Federation for Animal Welfare (UFAW) The Old School, Brewhouse Hill, Wheathampstead, Herts AL4 8AN UK Tel/Fax: 01276 500880 UFAW Office Tel: 01582 831818 Fax: 01582 831414 Web: www.ufaw.org.uk UFAW - Science in the Service of Animal Welfare ---------- From: Emma Creighton To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Clinically certified Animal Behaviourists Date: 07 April 2003 12:54 Dear All, The problem of who is and who can claim the title of an animal behaviour cousellor has caused some concern in the UK for a while. ASAB has taken the lead (in collaboration with the Royal College of Vetinary Surgeons, the British Psychological Society and the International Society for Applied Ethology) in devising a certification process leading to certification as a clinical animal behaviourist (see http://www.societies.ncl.ac.uk/asab/accreditation/ Certification requires education to Honours Degree standard or higher in a biological or behavioural science, including appropriate elements of zoology, physiology, psychology, clinical techniques and research methods. Plus experiential requirements based on evidence of significant experience of working under the supervision of several CCABs in a clinical setting. At present the scheme does not cover horses, so Amy's concerns are yet to be tackled on this side of the Atlantic. Emma. Dr Emma Creighton Senior Lecturer in Animal Behaviour & Welfare Department of Biological Sciences Chester College Chester CH1 4BJ Tel: 01244 375 444 Fax: 01244 392 781 Email: E.Creighton@chester.ac.uk From: IN%"duz_16@yahoo.com" "Joseph Barber" 7-APR-2003 11:05:12.50 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Sound sensitivity - antelope Dear all, Does anyone have any information (or know someone who might) about the sound sensitity of antelope. I'm specifically interested in bongos (the animals, not the drums), but would be interested in all/any antelope species. The type of information I would be interested in would include how the hearing sensitity of antelope copmares to other species, and what range of frequencies they can hear. If anyone had any information about their vocalisations, that would also be great. On a related topic, has there been any welfare research on determining what are safe sound frequencies and intensities for animals, similar to the the work that has been done for humans. I know there has been some work done on ultrasound with rats in laboratories. Is there anything else? Many thanks for your help, Joseph --------------------------- Dr. Joseph Barber Research Associate University of Central Flordia __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 7-APR-2003 11:05:47.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: IN%"info@rewardingdogs.com" "MG" Subj: Sighthound rehabilitation Mike Grantham wrote: > From recent discussion it seems there is a wealth of practical experience - > John & Margory especially - in the care & training of sight hounds, long-dogs, > lurchers and others with a strong instinctive chase instinct. As a > behaviourist I am often asked to help owners who have taken on adult rescue > dogs of this type. There are many such dogs taken in by rehoming centres or > just dumped, usually because previous owners couldn't cope with their needs > and didn't understand them (or indeed didn't understand dogs at all, which is > an increasing problem). > > Do those of you who deal with these dogs have any wisdom to pass on about the > "rehabilitation" of adult animals. > > Of course they are often in the wrong hands and the wrong enviroment when I > see them, but the rescue people have difficulty in finding homes for them and, > perhaps understandably, feel any loving home is better than the > alternatives. So it is largely > the art of the possible where the new owners love them dearly but don't know > how to cope with their chase aggression etc. Sometimes I think euthanasia is > preferable for these sensitive creatures rather than the dog being passed from > home to home, becoming stressed out of its mind in the process. > > My approach is usually 2-fold. First, try to improve the relationship, to > get mutual respect between dog & owner (dog being the junior partner). > Second, to demonstrate the mechanics of teaching the dog not to chase (at > least not to chase domestic animals) - often easier said than done. > > Any suggestions on exactly WHAT to do and details of HOW to do it would be > very welcome. I will be happy to engage in substantial dialogue on this matter. I leave it up to you (and the other members of the applied ethology list) whether you wish to conduct it on the list or take it private. I will begin by asking for more particulars. Sighthounds come in a range of types and IMO need somewhat different treatment accordingly. So what is your rescue population, where are they coming from, what is their previous experience, etc. I take it you are located in the U.K. I must tell you that there are already several well organized sighthound rescue bodies in the U.K. and perhaps some of your problem animals would best be dealt with through the good offices of the appropriate breed organization. There is even a lurcher rescue group. I'll also throw out the idea that it is preferable to harness the chase instinct rather than try to train it out of the hound (the latter being in most cases impracticable). Lure coursing or amateur racing are the obvious possibilities, but not the only ones. Participating in a fulfilling activity often has an amazing beneficial effect on such a hound, and the exercise, etc., associated therewith is often also beneficial for the owners . I don't think "chase aggression" is appropriate terminology. Aggression and hunting are two quite different behavior suites (using the same end effector organs, of course, since dogs have a limited supply of those ). Most sighthounds are rather unaggressive but have a very strong instinctive desire to chase things. There is also a great deal of nonsense in the popular beliefs about sighthounds. Perhaps I could even write up something for distribution to new or uninformed sighthound owners? Mutual respect is the key, as you point out, and that begins with the owner understanding what he/she is dealing with. Most of the understanding has to come from the human side. The dog is what it is, and in general no good will come of trying to make it into something altogether different. Most sighthounds are rather adaptable and will become seriously stressed only if someone is trying to force them into an inappropriate mold ... John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"sarahlhellis@hotmail.com" "Sarah Ellis" 8-APR-2003 06:17:45.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: PhD funding in animal behaviour Dear All, I am looking for information on how a British student should go about obtaining funding for an animal behaviour PhD in The Netherlands. I have a possible supervisor in The Netherlands but have hit a bit of a rutt where to look for funding. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated Kind regards Sarah Ellis BSc (Joint Hons) _________________________________________________________________ Worried what your kids see online? Protect them better with MSN 8 http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=186&DI=1059 From: IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com" 8-APR-2003 10:32:26.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Behaviourist Hello, This just goes to show that you should not drop a question like this into the middle of a swarm of ethologists and then leave town for three days. I'm still trying to catch up. My thanks to all who wrote in to share their opinions on this topic-- especially to J. Engel for the lengthy discussion of the importance of not defining the term prematurely and therefore closing useful doors. I agree with your logic and am a big believer in having the toolbox as well- equipped as possible, though since I've moved toward using R+ much more for teaching (via clicker training), I've found that some of the tools in my box now have a thin layer of dust on them. But they're still there, and they show enough signs of past use to indicate that they've been given more than just a cursory trial. Some will never be used again, but some others might. That's all I have time for right now--thanks again for all your comments. Cheers, Amy Coffman --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ From: IN%"andreas.boldt@aen.unibe.ch" "Andreas Boldt" 9-APR-2003 07:34:08.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Colour vision in chamois Hello A student of me is currently preparing for a thesis about colour vision in Alpine chamois (Rupicapra rupicapra). The knowledge about this is rare, anectodal and often contradictory. Scientific studies or publications seem not to exist. If you ask for example a chamois hunter, he will be absolutely convinced that these animals are not capable of colour vision. But nobody ever really looked at it. We know that the chamois' eye is physiologically capable of perceiving colours. Now we want to know if they really distinguish colours on a behavioural level. We are interested in any information on this, from personal experience to literature citings. We are also interested in information on related animals, such as other Caprinae species or other northern/temperate ungulates. We are particularly interested in information on wild animals, but also in work on domestic sheep or goats, if it is relevant for wild animals. If you have any information on this, please contact me by the e-mail below. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Andreas Boldt Ethology & Nature Conservation Zoological Institute University of Bern Laenggassstr. 27 CH-3012 Bern Switzerland Phone ++41 (0)31 631 34 53 Fax ++41 (0)31 631 34 51 andreas.boldt@aen.unibe.ch +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 9-APR-2003 11:36:04.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology list", IN%"ISAEnet-l@usask.ca" CC: Subj: [Fwd: swine welfare research position] Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada have just opened a permanent full-time position for a researcher in the behaviour and welfare of swine, at the Lennoxville Research Centre. People interested in the post can find information about the position on the Canadian Federal Public Service website (http://emplois.gc.ca/jobs/p028305e.htm - English) or (http://emplois.gc.ca/jobs/p028305f.htm- French). Note that the position is rated as bilingual (French and English) non-imperative. This means that the applicants do not need to be bilingual at the time of application. However, if their application is successful they must be prepared to take second language training (at Government expenses) and attain a certain level of proficiency within a specified time. Applications will be screened initially so it is important to be explicit as to how the requirements for education and experience have been met. We would be grateful if you would bring this position to the attention of people that you feel may be interested. Jeff Rushen ********************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Researcher / Chercheur Animal Welfare / Bien-être animal Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada / Agriculture et agroalimentaire Canada POB / CP 90, 2000 Route 108 E, Lennoxville, Québec, CANADA J1M 1Z3 Telephone/Téléphone: 1-819-5659174 ext./ poste 206 Fax/ Télecopieur: 1-819-5645507 rushenj@agr.gc.ca ********************************************************** From: IN%"synalia@synalia.com" "kcover" 10-APR-2003 18:01:47.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: [Fwd: terminology definitions] Regards, all, I am looking for the seminal definitions for the terms reinforcer and punisher, as viewed from the operant conditioning perspective. I learned these definitions as follows: Reinforcer: increases the frequency of the behavior it immediately follows; Punisher: decreases the frequency of the behavior it immediately follows; Time relatedness is a critical element of these definitions. Currently, I repeatedly see definitions which leave out the time relatedness aspect of this term. I am trying to find the original definition and where the change in usage came in, if indeed that change is considered accepted. If any have references for the original definitions, and any evolution of the term, your guidance would be most appreciated. Best wishes, Kayce Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com 757 588 5967 From: IN%"lts3@psu.edu" "Linda Hapsmith" 10-APR-2003 18:06:02.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Animal Welfare in 4-H Dear List: I am currently working on a project for a graduate class in Agricultural and Extension Education concerning youth-animal issues in 4-H programs. Basically, I'm trying to discover what animal welfare and/or rights issues are being addressed in the 4-H livestock, horse and companion animal curriculum that is not strictly production-oriented. For example, I'm interested in discovering if loss and bereavement issues are addressed in the curriculum. How are these children emotionally prepared for the sale or slaughter of their animals in the livestock programs? Are humane rearing/training/handling issues addressed in any of the animal-related programs? I'm particularly interested in attachment/attitudinal dimensions of animal-youth interactions within the curriculum. I was also wondering if the American Humane Association, the ASPCA, the Humane Society of the United States, or other animal welfare/rights organizations has been involved in 4-H curriculum development or programs? Thanks in advance for your assistance. I'm having a tough time finding relevant information. (I'm secretly hoping this project may evolve into a PhD dissertation for my Rural Sociology degree). Sincerely, Linda Hapsmith Penn State University lts3@psu.edu From: IN%"JLGhmn8532@aol.com" 11-APR-2003 06:20:32.05 To: IN%"synalia@synalia.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: [Fwd: terminology definitions] I don't remember the source but I do know that the optimum time factor for a reinforcement or punishment is one-half second following the behavior you are trying to modify. However, as a young trainer, I was always encouraged to administer the reinforcement or punishment as soon as humanly possible after the target behavior appears. one-half second is not always possible due to circumstances. Jeff Gehman, BS, DDH Houston, TX From: IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk" "Francis Burton" 11-APR-2003 07:16:26.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: [Fwd: terminology definitions] At 08:20 11/04/03 -0400, JLGhmn8532@aol.com wrote: >I don't remember the source but I do know that the optimum time factor for a >reinforcement or punishment is one-half second following the behavior you are >trying to modify. Jeff, This statement is a surprise to me in that I thought that immediate (zero seconds) feedback would be the most effective, and that the effectiveness falls off rapidly with time - such that one second is usually far too late! Certainly this is the presumption behind my own attempts to train horses with R+ (e.g. clicker click), R- (e.g. dropping of rope tension) or P+ (e.g. letting biting horse run into elbow). It makes me wonder what mental or physiological processes give rise to the half-second delay, and how such a delay could strengthen the reinforcing/punishing effect. Francis From: IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com" 11-APR-2003 08:03:19.43 To: IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk" "Francis Burton", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: [Fwd: terminology definitions] Hi Jeff et al, It is my understanding that in practice (in addition to the definitions already given), reinforcements occur *during* a behavior and punishments occur *afterward* (hopefully, immediately if at all.) This is why, when training using R+, a bridge signal becomes necessary for optimum effectiveness, because it's often more difficult to deliver a reward during a given behavior than it is to simply remove an aversive. Re .5 sec delays--some animals are able to make sense of this when punishment is used (though it's an inelegant technique and usefulness is debatable), but when using reinforcements, a .5 delay can really decrease effectiveness. To use a common R- scenario as an example, this is how "heavy", "dead-mouthed", or "dead-sided" horses are created: the release comes a hair too late each time. For reinforcements to really work in an effective and humane manner, they (or a promissory bridge) need to occur *during* the targeted behavior. Amy Coffman > > >I don't remember the source but I do know that the optimum time factor for a reinforcement or punishment is one-half second following the behavior you are trying to modify. > > > This statement is a surprise to me in that I thought that immediate > (zero seconds) feedback would be the most effective, and that the > effectiveness falls off rapidly with time - such that one second is > usually far too late! > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 11-APR-2003 12:40:07.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology list" CC: Subj: Evolution of associative behavoiurs? Dear All, Jeff Gehman from Houston, TX wrote: > > I don't remember the source but I do know that the optimum time factor > for a reinforcement or punishment is one-half second following the > behavior you are trying to modify. However, as a young trainer, I was > always encouraged to administer the reinforcement or punishment as > soon as humanly possible after the target behavior appears. one-half > second is not always possible due to circumstances. I believe the operative words in Jeff's message are "optimum time factor", in that if the reward or punishment follows immediately after the behaviour the chance of making the association is "optimum" or better than if the reward/punishment is delayed. It does not mean that associations will ONLY be made if rewards/punishments occur immediately after the behaviour. We should all remember that there are multiple examples of animals learning to associate their behaviour with consequences that occur much later than one half second. The most obvious example would be food aversions. Animals and people can learn to associate something they ate as being harmful hours after ingesting a bad food source. So even though malaise is not immediate, it can leave a potent lesson. On the other extreme there are examples of animals that receive immediate and powerful punishments (i.e. porcupine quills) and never seem to catch on; some dogs become repeat "offenders". So the whole business of training animals by offering immediate rewards, I am certain, speeds up the process of making the associations between the desired behaviour and the reward, but I hope people are not suggesting that the consequences of a behaviour have to be immediate for the animal to learn to make the association. Evolution would favor individuals that could make longer and longer associations between their behaviour and the "pay off". Animals stalk, hunt, build nests, hide, seek shelter, choose mates, migrate, mark territories, etc. etc. and they make all kinds of "decisions" and associations between their behaviour and the successful end results that can come much later. Obviously the association between a behavoiur and the consequence does not always have to occur on a cognitive sense, as in some of the examples I cited, but I think it is reasonable to assume that animals clearly have the ability to make associations between their behaviour and consequences that occur much much later on a time scale than simple seconds. In research on female mate choice there are examples of females avoiding to mate with certain males a second time if the first mating resulted in less than optimum progeny success. Now that is a delayed and long lasting association! Anyway, animals can and do make associations between their behaviour and the consequences, with much longer time delays than half a second. We use to have a dog that would bark just once to let her come back in the house, something she trained us to do, and we NEVER EVER opened the door within a half second of her bark. I am guessing that lots of times she waited several minutes! Also as a Golden Retriever we always thought her barking, to be let back in, was interesting since she never barked at any other time for any other reason. So she clearly had to associate her first "desperate bark" and our eventual coming to the door as a cause and affect. Also in regards to training, I have always been amazed at the relative ease that dogs can learn "tricks" without any formal training. I know of several cases of dogs performing outlandish acts because their owner laughed at them the first time they saw the dog perform the act. One of my graduate students had a dog that would grab the bottom of the garage door as it was opening and ride it all the way to the top before letting go and dropping to the floor. The dog simply learned the trick because she laughed at him the first time he grabbed the moving door. How long would it take via clicker training to get your dog to do that? I had a dog that would jump head first into a snow bank, pouncing on imaginary mice because I laughed at her the first time she pounced and came out with a snow dusted face. After that she seemed to think it was her job to jump head first into snow banks and she would always turn to see if I was laughing. Both cases represent a single act followed by human laughter and the dog was "trained". It seems to me that laughter for some dogs is an extremely potent reward. Someone should devise an experiment to see if laughter is more effective, faster and longer lasting as a training aid compared to clicker training! I can almost see the results now, "Laughter delivered within 0.34 to 2.68 seconds after a desired behavioural speeds up the training process and is more effective than clicker training"! Just think of the implications! Not only would the dog have to make the association between laughter and the desired behaviour (which I am convinced they can do), but it would also force us to consider the cognitive faculties of the dog such that our laughter could become their reward. Cheers, Joe Stookey =============================== Joseph M. Stookey Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada From: IN%"Shetts@aol.com" 11-APR-2003 20:12:00.01 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Behaviourist (was Re: Preditor Control) I've been out of town and now catching up and thought I should respond to=20 some of the posts regarding certification and use of the term 'behaviorist"=20 -- In a message dated 04/03/2003 3:45:10 AM Mountain Daylight Time,=20 F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk writes: > One sees the word "behaviourist" used in a variety of contexts > these days. I was wondering if the experts on this list would > like to comment on what is considered correct usage. > <> <<"behavioralists" and does not require the same background for those folk as was required for classic ethologists>> The ABS certification program does indeed allow people to meet the criteria=20 for certification by having a degree in a "behavioral science", not just=20 zoology or ethology. The distinctions between ethologists and animal=20 psychologists, or comparative psychologists, have become more blurred over=20 the years for many reasons, - just one example that many ethologists conduct= =20 research in the lab, and many psychologists do field work. As a close to hom= e=20 example, by husband Dan Estep is trained as a comparative psychologist, but=20 has done more field work than I have, and my degree in zoology, but my=20 dissertation researchwas done in the lab.=20 I think it is true that there are fewer basic ethology courses being taught=20 in colleges and universities The ABS certification program recognizes that individuals can be trained as=20 behaviorists by more than one route - just look at the membership of the=20 society itself. =20 Interestingly, although I have been involved with the world of dog training= =20 since the mid 1970's I never heard dog trainers begin to refer to themselves= =20 as 'behaviorists' until the academic crowd entered the scene. I appreciate=20 Amy's interpretation of when she feels comfortable using the term, and agree= =20 with her sentiments and standardds. However, no one controls who can use th= e=20 term professionally and who cannot. P.S. to Ted Friend - the ABS decided to retain their certification program=20 which is probably why you haven't heard more about linking their program to=20 yours. Best Suzanne Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D. Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist Animal Behavior Associates, Inc. Littleton, CO www.animalbehaviorassociates.com From: IN%"synalia@synalia.com" "kcover" 12-APR-2003 22:01:17.43 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology list" Subj: RE: Evolution of associative behavoiurs? Hi Joe, I really enjoyed this post. You bring up many great points and have made me see that my purposes, for which I apply terminology, are fairly specialized and set, and may be very different than those of ethologists. I do not generally need to consider the broad aspects of how an animal processes reinforcers. I do often need to keep close track of what happens within the training session or performance (not necessarily shows, but performance of behaviors on cue). I follow an animal's progress in mastering behaviors which I am teaching him, and his reliability in performing those behaviors when asked. For these purposes, the reinforcers I consider are provided/managed by me, and are closely linked in time to the behaviors being tracked. Other reinforcers may exist, but are probably not observed by me (outside the training sessions), or are can't be controlled anyway (for example, during breeding season, there are some serious reinforcers which I cannot control, but they are a given and are not analyzed in reference to the training). The broad definition of reinforcers/reinforcement, is virtually useless to my work. I need the time relatedness to make the term useful. Do we need another term, which conveys this specific use of reinforcer? I rather hope not... This thread is being pursued on another list, and I saw that in general, the trainers all demanded the time relatedness aspect of the definition, while the clinicians (behavior analysts) and researchers were ready to allow a broader, looser definition. Emily Patterson-Kane sent a wonderful link to a review (the author of which I cannot identify, even after writing Dr. Lesley Rogers, his mentor, so if any one knows this author, I would appreciate being able to credit him/her): http://www.gday-mate.com/brainreward/ I also agree about laughter and animals. When I trained dolphins, it took them about 1.2 microseconds to hijack my audience, if I lagged a bit mentally, (and sometimes not even that! ). They were often happy to give up my fish in return for the approval and laughter of the audience. However, if we got "playing" together, they would lighten up on me and be really a lot of fun and wonderful to work with. If I tried to be authoritarian, they were horrible to work with. Often, I had to compete with the dolphins for the audience loyalty - enlisting the help of the audience in managing or training (new behaviors) the dolphins, by giving or withholding their applause and laughter - according to the performance of the dolphins. This was really effective and a lot of fun for everyone, it appeared. Also, many of the animals with which I have worked are horrific practical jokers - everything from squirting water, to pushing you into the water, to hiding things, to catching flippers on hoops and moaning like they are "stuck", to bringing everything but what you ask for (like ignoring keys lying on the pool bottom and bringing specks of leaves), to bringing you ridiculous tools (one dog, asked to bring another dog's food bowl, brought a teaspoon, head down and waving and tail wagging back and forth, but tentatively. When I saw the spoon, I burst out laughing and told him that was a great bowl - so great, that I would give the other dog his bowl and he could have that one. Instantly he was crestfallen! However, I prepared him a special dinner and fed it to him teaspoon by teaspoon, which he thought was great. Humor must not go unrewarded (although he never did this again, so it was probably not effectively reinforced! ) Now, I try to make as many things as possible into games and cannot exclude the use of humor if I try. However, some people do not appreciate the wisdom of the dolphins. In an interview for one job, the interviewer asked if I considered my sense of humor my most serious professional liability! She was serious! I apparently was not. I would love to see the matter researched further. Best, Kayce Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com 757 588 5967 Joseph M. Stookey wrote: ... the chance of making the association is "optimum" or > better than if the reward/punishment is delayed. It does not mean that > associations will ONLY be made if rewards/punishments occur immediately > after the behaviour. We should all remember that there are multiple > examples of animals learning to associate their behaviour with > consequences that occur much later than one half second. The most > obvious example would be food aversions. Animals and people can learn > to associate something they ate as being harmful hours after ingesting a > bad food source. So even though malaise is not immediate, it can leave > a potent lesson. On the other extreme there are examples of animals > that receive immediate and powerful punishments (i.e. porcupine quills) > and never seem to catch on; some dogs become repeat "offenders". So the > whole business of training animals by offering immediate rewards, I am > certain, speeds up the process of making the associations between the > desired behaviour and the reward, but I hope people are not suggesting > that the consequences of a behaviour have to be immediate for the animal > to learn to make the association. >... I know > of several cases of dogs performing outlandish acts because their owner > laughed at them the first time they saw the dog perform the act. One of > my graduate students had a dog that would grab the bottom of the garage > door as it was opening and ride it all the way to the top before letting > go and dropping to the floor. The dog simply learned the trick because > she laughed at him the first time he grabbed the moving door. How long > would it take via clicker training to get your dog to do that? I had a > dog that would jump head first into a snow bank, pouncing on imaginary > mice because I laughed at her the first time she pounced and came out > with a snow dusted face. After that she seemed to think it was her job > to jump head first into snow banks and she would always turn to see if I > was laughing. Both cases represent a single act followed by human > laughter and the dog was "trained". It seems to me that laughter for > some dogs is an extremely potent reward. Someone should devise an > experiment to see if laughter is more effective, faster and longer > lasting as a training aid compared to clicker training! I can almost > see the results now, "Laughter delivered within 0.34 to 2.68 seconds > after a desired behavioural speeds up the training process and is more > effective than clicker training"! Just think of the implications! Not > only would the dog have to make the association between laughter and the > desired behaviour (which I am convinced they can do), but it would also > force us to consider the cognitive faculties of the dog such that our > laughter could become their reward. From: IN%"hmcmurra@elp.rr.com" "heather mcmurray" 12-APR-2003 22:53:19.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"synalia@synalia.com" "kcover" CC: Subj: RE: Evolution of associative behavoiurs? House (companion) rabbits also are great practical jokers. "When Elwood wants attention, and I'm in the kitchen, he is liable to get into his litter box and dig the contents, pooties and all, through his hind legs. He knows this is a bad thing to do, but he does it only if we're not watching or playing with him. He then scrambles under the safety of the kitchen table to watch his slave sweep up the mess. He never does this with my husband. Elwood also likes to take food from our mouths. He's very bold (and spoiled) and will take anything sweet -- Pop Tarts, dry breakfast cereal -- then run as fast as he can with it. He knows that he might get only a bite that way, but he must figure that a bite is better than nothing. He takes a running leap, then lands a lap and grabs whatever is near our faces. The funniest moment came when my husband was sitting with a bowl of milk and cereal and Elwood soared into it, to land in it with all four feet. Last week he landed in a plate of pancakes. He hopped away and rolled on his side in ecstasy, licking the syrup off his front paws. We also have an "attack" game. We dig with our fingers in Elwood's carpet runway in the living room. This is greeted by binkies and headshakes, and then by a "charge," complete with flattened ears, and angry-sounding honks if we keep it up. He never is fearful. It is clear that he recognizes this as play. He will participate for only a few seconds, and then always runs to his circular soft bed -- his "safe you-can't-touch-me" spot. He usually gets a nose-rubbing after that. Sometimes he just curls up in the bed and rolls in delight after our attack game. I don't know if this will assist John in understanding our little furry balls of comic relief, Heather. I hope so, because I know that Elwood is laughing at me half the time! Linda, Elwood's mom" and this story: "Oh, now you've invoked Mary Kay's message and made me remember my beloved bridge bunny Moe, the little snot! :-) He was a real character and taught me that rabbits actually LIKED to be chased at times. Here's how he'd play it: 1) Walk over to the coffer table and pull down any piece of paper you find on it and start chewing. 2) Keep your eyes on the human slave. 3) If the slave doesn't respond (you're chewing some "junk mail" item), drop the paper immediately. 4) Pull another piece of paper off the coffee table and chew it. 5) Keep your eyes on the human slave. 6) If the slave gets up and comes toward you, saying "No Moey, Drop that!" (you're chewing this month's telephone bill), then run away quickly, but MAKE SURE YOU KEEP THAT PAPER TIGHTLY HELD IN BETEEN YOUR LIPS as you run or the slave will not take up the chase. 7) Lead the slave through the house (kitchen, diningroom, livingroom, kitchen, etc.) for 3 or 4 laps. 8) Turn around and drop the important papers on the floor. This signifies the game is over. 9) As a final gestue of defiance, when the slave reaches down to pick up the paper, make sure you have judged the distance properly so that, when he then reaches out to you, you are exactly 2 inches beyond his reach. We'd play that game a couple times a month. " > Also, many of the animals with which I have worked are horrific > practical jokers - everything from squirting water, to pushing you into > the water, to hiding things, to catching flippers on hoops and moaning > like they are "stuck", to bringing everything but what you ask for (like > ignoring keys lying on the pool bottom and bringing specks of leaves), > to bringing you ridiculous tools From: IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk" "Francis Burton" 13-APR-2003 08:12:40.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Evolution of associative behavoiurs? At 12:43 11/04/03 -0600, joseph.stookey@usask.ca wrote: >I believe the operative words in Jeff's message are "optimum time >factor", in that if the reward or punishment follows immediately after >the behaviour the chance of making the association is "optimum" or >better than if the reward/punishment is delayed. It does not mean that >associations will ONLY be made if rewards/punishments occur immediately >after the behaviour. Joe - I too found your post enjoyable and thought-provoking. Here are some thoughts that arose as a result. When I wrote, in the context of horse training, "the effectiveness falls off rapidly with time - such that one second is usually far too late", I didn't mean to give the impression that learning cannot take place at all after one second - just that delaying it that long really does seem to make a difference. But I do wonder how much variation there is between species in the decline in efficacy with time. In the case of horses, with whom I have had by far the most experience compared to other animals, this fall-off is pretty rapid. My impression (based on day-to-day experience rather than any kind of rigorous quantification) is that the efficacy roughly halves every one second elapsed - for a typical horse in a typical working environment. If there are a lot of distractions, or if the horse is switching rapidly between actions, the confounding effect of inadvertently rewarding or punishing an action subsequent to the desired one becomes more important. Also, it seems intuitively obvious that horses learn more easily things which have biological relevance to them. Another point to consider is that the action or behaviour being rewarded or punished is often not a discrete event. Instead it may be an ongoing action which is interrupted/terminated by the delivery of the reward or punishment. In this case, the distinction between "during" and "after" is blurred. Amy Coffman drew attention to the criticality of delay in negative reinforcement scenarios. She is dead right about a "hair" making the difference between lightness and heaviness (a sign of someone who is good with horses). Here the release is timed in relation to the =start= of the desired behaviour (or the end of the absence of the desired behaviour if you want to look at it that way!). It's a bit more subtle than that because in striving to optimize the timing of the release, one may end up giving the release just =before= the action has been started - part of what I think has been called "finding the try". So is the =thought= being rewarded as well (or instead)? Conditioned food aversion: this has been shown to work for horses too in some rather horrible experiments. See: uvalde.tamu.edu/rangel/apr01/ralphs.pdf jrm.library.arizona.edu/data/1992/451/9ralp.pdf Finally, though I often laugh in the presence of horses -- they are such delightful creatures -- I haven't noticed any particular rewarding or discouraging effects, other than causing them to look at me as if I were mad. :-) Francis From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" 13-APR-2003 12:13:10.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Speaking of associative learning Dare one suggest altruism? Bill Campbell Pet Behavior Resources http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior Joe: Thanks for starting this. :-) Bill Elephant Unlatches Gate To Save Antelopes 4-12-3 EMPANGENI, South Africa (AFP) - The matriarch of a herd of elephants in South Africa opened a gate with her trunk to free antelopes being held at a camp in the east of the country. Lawrence Anthony told the SAPA news agency Tuesday that a private game capture company had rounded up the antelopes at their camp near Empangeni to relocate them for a breeding programme. The team were settling in for the night when the herd of 11 elephants approached, he said. "The herd circled the enclosure while the capture team watched warily, thinking the herd were after lucerne (alfalfa) being used to feed the antelope," he said. The herd's matriarch, named Nana, approached the enclosure gates and began tampering with the metal latches holding the gates closed. She carefully undid all the latches with her trunk, swung the gate open and stood back with her herd. "At this stage the onlookers realised this was not a mission for free food, but actually a rescue," Anthony said. The herd watched the antelope leave the camp before they walked off into the night. Ecologist Brendon Whittington-Jones said: "Elephants are naturally inquisitive -- but this behaviour is certainly most unusual and cannot be explained in scientific terms." From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 13-APR-2003 13:33:36.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Evolution of associative behavoiurs? Joseph Stookey: Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 11:43 AM > Anyway, animals can and do make associations between their behaviour and > the consequences, with much longer time delays than half a second. // >.....It seems to me that laughter for > some dogs is an extremely potent reward. Someone should devise an > experiment to see if laughter is more effective, faster and longer > lasting as a training aid compared to clicker training! I can almost > see the results now, "Laughter delivered within 0.34 to 2.68 seconds > after a desired behavioural speeds up the training process and is more > effective than clicker training"! Just think of the implications! Not > only would the dog have to make the association between laughter and the > desired behaviour (which I am convinced they can do), but it would also > force us to consider the cognitive faculties of the dog such that our > laughter could become their reward. margory wrote in: Yours is for me this past week the consolation for being on-line in discussions about Dog. (Some times I truly despair.) In terms of consequences, applaud and welcome yours. Interested in research that further attests to this, but say also that I know long-time dog trainers who have been saying this all along. Unfortunately, in some of the current environment, some of that gets distorted and slandered but the Truth of it can't be stifled. As to humour -- Aye! -- Karen Blixen, writing as Isak Dinensen, has written of her Deerhound Pania's sense of humour when it came to a particular tree where once was threat of lion cat and how the dog clearly was "laughing" at Miss Blixen's reaction to her (the dog's) teasing response around the tree. No lions here, but I know myself after years of living with my own deerhounds first hand the jokes they've played on me. "Associative behaviours." I thank you for that phrase, but even more, the heart behind it. -margory cohen San Francisco From: IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk" "Francis Burton" 13-APR-2003 14:04:39.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Evolution of associative behavoiurs? [I suspect I may have sent reply to wrong address - apologies if this post turns up twice.] At 12:43 11/04/03 -0600, joseph.stookey@usask.ca wrote: >I believe the operative words in Jeff's message are "optimum time >factor", in that if the reward or punishment follows immediately after >the behaviour the chance of making the association is "optimum" or >better than if the reward/punishment is delayed. It does not mean that >associations will ONLY be made if rewards/punishments occur immediately >after the behaviour. Joe - I too found your post enjoyable and thought-provoking. Here are some thoughts that arose as a result. When I wrote, in the context of horse training, "the effectiveness falls off rapidly with time - such that one second is usually far too late", I didn't mean to give the impression that learning cannot take place at all after one second - just that leaving it so long really does seem to make a difference. But I do wonder how much variation there is between species in the decline in efficacy with time. In the case of horses, with whom I have had by far the most experience compared to other animals, this fall-off is pretty rapid. My impression (based on day-to-day experience and not any kind of rigorous quantification) is that the efficacy roughly halves every one second elapsed - for a typical horse in a typical working environment. If there are a lot of distractions, or if the horse is switching rapidly between actions, the confounding effect of inadvertently rewarding or punishing an action subsequent to the desired one becomes more important. Also, it seems intuitively obvious that horses learn more easily things which have biological relevance to them. Another point to consider is that the action or behaviour being rewarded or punished is often not a discrete event. Instead it may be an ongoing action which is interrupted/terminated by the delivery of the reward or punishment. In this case, the distinction between "during" and "after" is blurred. Amy Coffman drew attention to the criticality of delay in negative reinforcement scenarios. She is dead right about a "hair" making the difference between lightness and heaviness (a sign of someone who is good with horses). Here the release is timed in relation to the =start= of the desired behaviour (or the end of the absence of the desired behaviour if you want to look at it that way!). It's a bit more subtle than that because in striving to optimize the timing of the release, one may end up giving the release just =before= the action has been started - part of what I think has been called "finding the try". So is the =thought= being rewarded as well (or instead)? Conditioned food aversion: this has been shown to work for horses too in some rather horrible experiments. See: uvalde.tamu.edu/rangel/apr01/ralphs.pdf jrm.library.arizona.edu/data/1992/451/9ralp.pdf Finally, though I often laugh in the presence of horses -- they are such delightful creatures -- I haven't noticed any particular rewarding or discouraging effects, other than causing them to look at me as if I were mad. :-) Francis From: IN%"hmcmurra@elp.rr.com" "heather mcmurray" 13-APR-2003 21:18:20.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" CC: Subj: RE: Speaking of associative learning rabbits setting other rabbits free... "When Godiva and Spaatze were only bunnies, poor little things that they were, they each lives in adjoining dog cages.....the kind with the slide out plastic bottoms. Spaatze was already spayed, but I hadn't gotten Divers fixed yet so I tried to keep the two apart cause Divers was just a little tooooooo much interested in the fact that Spaatze was a girl.... After the two of them shared the entire bunny room for a ccouple of weeks, he began figuring out how to slide the door on his cage up and thus, undo the latch on it. This would give him the ability to get out and let himself loung in front of Spaatze's cage. I could deal with this, but when he figured out how to also free his friend Spaatze, I stepped in! Invested in a couple of caribeeners for the latches on their cages and man if you don't think that big chocolate rabbit didn't try his darnedest to figure out how to escape. He was one pretty put out bunny for a good week." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Campbell" To: "applied-ethology" Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 12:10 PM Subject: Speaking of associative learning > Dare one suggest altruism? > > Bill Campbell > Pet Behavior Resources > http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior > > Joe: Thanks for starting this. :-) > > Bill > > Elephant Unlatches Gate To Save Antelopes > > 4-12-3 > > EMPANGENI, South Africa (AFP) - The matriarch of a herd of elephants in > South Africa opened a gate with her trunk to free antelopes being held > at a camp in the east of the country. > > Lawrence Anthony told the SAPA news agency Tuesday that a private game > capture company had rounded up the antelopes at their camp near > Empangeni to relocate them for a breeding programme. > > The team were settling in for the night when the herd of 11 elephants > approached, he said. > > "The herd circled the enclosure while the capture team watched warily, > thinking the herd were after lucerne (alfalfa) being used to feed the > antelope," he said. > > The herd's matriarch, named Nana, approached the enclosure gates and > began tampering with the metal latches holding the gates closed. > > She carefully undid all the latches with her trunk, swung the gate open > and stood back with her herd. > > "At this stage the onlookers realised this was not a mission for free > food, but actually a rescue," Anthony said. > > The herd watched the antelope leave the camp before they walked off into > the night. > > Ecologist Brendon Whittington-Jones said: "Elephants are naturally > inquisitive -- but this behaviour is certainly most unusual and cannot > be explained in scientific terms." > >