From: IN%"arion@dialatlanta.com" 31-MAR-1997 16:48:45.04 To: IN%"CROWELL-DAVIS.S@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: KIDS TORTURING ANIMALS Greg, I heartily agree with Dr.Davis. Even I develop attachments to fish. I would like to follow up with an anecdote that explains why I thought of the live bearers. Long ago, when my former husband was trying to make it in the business world of NYC, he rented the only room he could afford in a rooming house for the elderly in New Jersey. This was a forlorn and dismal place wreaking of the smell of urine on the old carpets. The people were so sad and bored and little conversation occured. My husband, a joyful Brazilian who loved old people, decided to liven things up and make his hardship stay there a better experience for everyone. He commandeered two of our old fishtanks on a visit home and took them back to the old people's home. He filled them with live bearers and taught the old people how to care for them. He brought them things with which to decorate the tanks appropriately...and some of that ugly stuff too. The tanks were in the sitting room and everyone eventually got involved. Even the hard core loners couldn't resist when the babies were born. Many of these people were not capable of remembering if the fish had been fed and how much or how frequently. Fish died from water polluted with too much food for the filtration system. My husband would try to sneak in new fish so the tanks didn't look too sparce. The poeple loved him for caring about them. They had something interesting to watch, which was a catalyst for interest in one another, too. Conversations were not unlike the ones Dr. Davis described amongst the children. Personal note: I too created a pet cemetery when I was a child. I buried two turtles there. Then each day I would go out and wait for them to grow. After several days I complained to my parents that the turtles had been planted but weren't growing yet. It seemed to make so much sense at the time. Of course, then not only did my poor parents have to explain about death, but also about plants and animals. To my knowledge I am not related of Stephen King. Chris Redenbach Alliance Dog Training School, Inc. Lawrenceville, GA 30245 From: IN%"peter.penning@bbsrc.ac.uk" "Peter Penning" 1-APR-1997 03:06:43.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re Cow Grazing Behaviour We have a research program that considers some of the behaviours of grazing dairy cows and sheep. We have noticed sheep grazing along fence lines in the past. We had an area of land fenced to give experimental plots, removed the fences and then refenced the area with different plot sizes and fence lines. The sheep showed a strong preference to graze the old fence lines although the fences had been removed. I think that one of the reasons for grazing along the fence lines is that herbage may be cleaner here i.e. animals have to turn around to deposit faeces and urine up against the fences - if the fence is electrified then this is a dangerous operation! Peter Penning IGER North Wyke From: IN%"TAYLORA@EM.AGR.CA" "Allison Taylor" 1-APR-1997 11:09:19.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Self mutilation in rabits -Reply I have no direct experience, but wonder whether the animal is getting sufficient fibre in its diet .... most commercial rabbit pellets are prettly low in fibre ... there are new varieties that are specifically designed to be high fibre. Or you could offer (clean) straw free choice ... this would provide occupational opportunities, too .... Allison Taylor, PhD >>> 03/27/97 06:31pm >>> I have a companion rabit who started selfmutilating is digits. What can I do to stop this? I know that fluoxetine is very good to stop fether picking but can I use fluoxetine in rabits? Which dose? From: IN%"FLANNIGAN@admin3.usask.ca" 1-APR-1997 11:25:32.90 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: proceedings request Hello all: I'm trying to get a hold of the proceedings of the International congress of equine behaviour organized by the Swiss Eqine Vetrinary Association at Basel, Switzerland. I believe the meeting was last June. If the proceedings are not available, does anyone know if selected abstracts are published anywhere. Thanks Gerry Flannigan WCVM, University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan From: IN%"Johanl3@Transnet.co.za" "le_Roux Johan Datavia" 2-APR-1997 00:18:08.52 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" "'APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@SASK.USASK.CA'" CC: Subj: ARTICLE NEEDED Hi, I need the following article urgently but can not find it in South Africa (yet!) I have mailed the contributing editor of L.A. but have not received an answer. JM French Ectrodactyly and syndactyly in a common marmoset (Callithrix jacchus). LABORATORY ANIMALS 20(1): 49-50, 1986. It would be greatly appreciated if anybody out there can help me in obtaining this article. >Thank you in advance! > From: IN%"marithe@mandic.com.br" "maria thereza c g do amaral" 2-APR-1997 07:28:36.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Kids and animals I would like to know about books and periodics that comments about this: Kids , dogs or cats and their interaction . Thanks maria thereza cera galvao do amaral veterinarian ( medica veterinaria ) homeopatician ( homeopata ) marithe@mandic.com.br Sao Paulo - Brasil From: IN%"'Jason.A..Alley'@bubbs.biola.edu" 3-APR-1997 00:54:08.85 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hello Hello, I'd just like to take a brief moment to introduce myself, since I'm new to this list. My name is Jason Alley, and I am a Junior Biology Student at Biola University in La Mirada, California. I'm finishing up my undergraduate degree right now, and I'm currently looking into several Universities, trying to find the best Ph.D. program in Ethology. My goals are to obtain a Ph.D in Ethology and enter Behavioral research while teaching at a University. Eventually, I'd like to move out of teaching and deeper into the research field, ultimately opening up my own Biological Research Institution. I'm looking forward to learning from the discussions on this listserv. Pleased to meet you, Jason Alley From: IN%"SED1502@ed.sac.ac.uk" 3-APR-1997 04:01:38.26 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Tail docking & "The man in the pub" I was interested to read the recent "man in the pub" anecdote about maternal tail amputation. This phenomenon has been noted in sheep, and seems to occur when the ewe is over zealous about removing all traces of foetal fluids/membranes and bites off part of her lamb's tail in the process. At the moment I am looking at the behavioural responses of lambs to tail docking by the use of rubber rings, and I wondered if anyone can explain the following phenomenon: within a large group of lambs 15% did not show any behavioural response after application of rubber rings. However, when the ring was repositioned slightly further up the tail of these "non-responders", typical signs of restlessness/ head turning was elicited in the vast majority. We have done a small study to see if this was related to the position of the ring over bone versus over an intervertebral space, and it would appear not to make a difference as interpreted from the lambs' behaviour. Any ideas? I look forward to your suggestions, as I would like to have a further look at this. From: IN%"rdecter@msn.com" "Renee Decter" 3-APR-1997 04:48:55.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Humor in Domestic Dogs - As An Attachment I am resending my paper as an attachment. Some of you have e-mailed me that you received the first transmission okay, but most of you did not. Let me know if this works!! By the way ... instead of clicking "text," I clicked "attachment." Stay with me folks --- I'll get the hang of this eventually. (Doing the project was easier than trying to send this to all of you in a readable form!) (There's supposed to be an icon below which I guess you click to access. Let me know how this post works out for you.) 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M$P`!(!4`T. 1# ````# 66]R:SJ @$AO=6=H=&]N@$UI9F9L:6Z 0V]M<&%N>2[0!!4```L` M"0`!=A;R$AD``2 5`-!697)K97)K+(!'+H" ,3DY-RZ @$6$;6%I;"[,5V%L M:V5R+(!2+H" ,3DY-RZ @$6$;6%I;"[,U!HC`(8!$P`(`/0!+F@$`/4!! #U M`4,`] $N:!W>```C`-34&A\`AP%#``@`] $N: 0`]0$$`/4!$P#T`2YH'P#4 MX# ,`````-P%# #@X `,`````(0## #@5V5M96QS9F5L9&5R+(!&+H" ,3DY M,RZ @/((\E1H98!C;VYC97!T@&]F@&%N:6UA;(!B;W)E9&]M@&%N9(!I='. M ;VZ 88!R97-E87)C:(!PAAHC``$@%0#0S-,%# ```0`"``P`TT5.1$Y/5$53S-,%# ```0```@P` MT\S4&B,`A@$3``@`] $N: 0`]0$$`/4!0P#T`2YHWN(``",`U `````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` :```````````````````````````````````` ` end From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 3-APR-1997 08:46:04.87 To: IN%"SED1502@ed.sac.ac.uk", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Tail docking & "The man in the pub" >I was interested to read the recent "man in the pub" anecdote about >maternal tail amputation. This phenomenon has been noted in sheep, and >seems to occur when the ewe is over zealous about removing all traces of >foetal fluids/membranes and bites off part of her lamb's tail in the process. > >At the moment I am looking at the behavioural responses of lambs to tail >docking by the use of rubber rings, and I wondered if anyone can explain >the following phenomenon: within a large group of lambs 15% did not show >any behavioural response after application of rubber rings. However, when >the ring was repositioned slightly further up the tail of these >"non-responders", typical signs of restlessness/ head turning was elicited >in the vast majority. > My immediate thoughts in response to this interesting observation is that it resembles the kind of "pain" that seemed to trouble the Corgi and Old English Sheepdog pup which are docked as high as possible by some devotees of the practice. The simple thought is that the ischaemic mass is greater the higher the strangulation point. I wonder however if the inclusion of a greater amount of fat tissue is not highly relevant. Fat necrosis and inflammation are part of recognized (and very painful) dermatological syndromes ..such as Pansteatitis..... The deciding factor at the outset is presumably the speed and totality of ischaemia, Presumably absolute occlusion of blood and lymphatic vessels is easier to achieve in the thinner distal part of the tail. Certainly the surgically docked Corgi and OESD had no comparable signs of chronic pain comparable with the "banded" individuals and I will repeat the assertion of my breeders that the "topline" of the "cut" puppies of either breed was straighter than that of the docked puppies which appeared to have a curvature of the rump which I have always thought due to postural deformity at a time of explosive growth. Robin NB I met the author of the "pub" post at the Behaviour symposium in Birmingham yesterday and she was concerned that anyone might think the anecdote frivolous. It was offered sincerely at its face value. I do not support the practice of docking and my views on the matter of the matter are "historical" not prescriptive. From: IN%"Craig=Pizzuti%6600%ETS@pclan.ets.org" "craig pizzuti" 3-APR-1997 09:49:15.24 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Greetings... My name is Craig Pizzuti. I am a 27 year old Asst. Research Scientist at Educational Testing Service in Princeton, NJ but my first love is biology of all types and I have joined the listserv just to possibly learn new things and for good discussion. From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 3-APR-1997 09:52:17.85 To: IN%"SED1502@ed.sac.ac.uk" "Terence Cassidy" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Tail docking & "The man in the pub" On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Terence Cassidy wrote: > I was interested to read the recent "man in the pub" anecdote about > maternal tail amputation. This phenomenon has been noted in sheep, and > seems to occur when the ewe is over zealous about removing all traces of > foetal fluids/membranes and bites off part of her lamb's tail in the process. > > At the moment I am looking at the behavioural responses of lambs to tail > docking by the use of rubber rings, and I wondered if anyone can explain > the following phenomenon: within a large group of lambs 15% did not show > any behavioural response after application of rubber rings. However, when > the ring was repositioned slightly further up the tail of these > "non-responders", typical signs of restlessness/ head turning was elicited > in the vast majority. (stepping up onto my saop box) In several of the papers I have read on tail docking of lambs, comparing rubber rings to some other technique, I always get the distinct impression that the researchers have already decided before they begin the project which technique is least painful. You did not mention if you are making a comparison to other techniques and I am not saying you began with a bias, but it still is interesting to note in your study that the %15 (non-responders) were further manipulated to see if they would "respond". Did you reposition the rings on the other 85% to see if they would discontinue their "response"? In other words, have you considered the possibility that all lambs have the potential to be "non-responders" with this technique or are you only wondering why 15% of the lambs are not showing signs of discomfort following a procedures which you are certain causes discomfort? I think it was clever to reposition the rings on the non-responders, but it still strikes me that you did so because you believed they should have responded. Had you believed the rubber rings should not cause discomfort you would have repositioned the rings on the other 85%. I believe the research you are doing is extremely important. Whenever we have more than one technique available for use in completing a painful routine management procedure, I think we have an obligation to the animals and society to identify the least painful procedure and help the industry adopt that procedure. I also think as researchers we must be constantly on guard to avoid our preconceived biases when designing the experiment, conducting the experiment and when interpreting the results. Not only does that approach lead to good science, but good science helps lead to appropriate changes in the industry. Someday the results will be used to help convince producers (who also have a bias) to use a particular technique. For some producers (and scientists) no amount of data will be a substitute for a firmly held opinion (Jon Watts, 1994). Therefore it is imperative that the work is not open to criticism due to a biased design, interpretation of results, etc. > We have done a small study to see if this was related to the position of > the ring over bone versus over an intervertebral space, and it would appear > not to make a difference as interpreted from the lambs' behaviour. Any > ideas? Have you considered factors such as age of lamb, size of bone, diameter of tail, breed, sex, weight? I would imagine the size of the rubber ring is consistent, but the variation in lambs might influence the tension of the rings on the lambs. It sounds like you have stumbled onto the typical case whereby in trying to answer one question you have been lead to more questions! I love science! Good luck and keep me informed of your findings. Joe P.S. I have two different mail browsers and by chance I noticed that using the one browser I have no idea who you are, since you have not indicated your name within your message. My other mail reader lists your name in the header as Terence Cassidy . Just a reminder to all of us that it is useful to others if we attach our name and address to our messages, since not all mail readers identify the sender. ========================== Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"dacserm@biol.unipr.it" 3-APR-1997 11:23:28.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Falcon use in airports Hello everybody. I've been asked to provide some information about the use of falcons to deter birds from landing close to flying fields or small airports and/or chasing them away. A search among my reprint collection gave poor results. Can anybody let me know some reference about. Thanks a lot. Davide Csermely -- _________________________________________________________________________ Davide Csermely Assoc.Prof. Vertebrate Zoology Dip. Biologia Evolutiva e Funzionale Intl. Phone: +39-521-905632 Universita` di Parma Intl. Fax : +39-521-905657 Viale delle Scienze Email: dacserm@biol.unipr.it 43100 Parma, Italy URL : http://www.biol.unipr.it _________________________________________________________________________ From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 3-APR-1997 16:18:11.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: "Re:Tail docking & the man in the pub" Whoops! I said ... "I do not support the practice of docking and my views on the matter of the matter are "historical" not prescriptive." Please insert PUPPIES. I do not support the "Maggot Liberation Front" ..in matters pertaining to sheep husbandry I defer to workers trying to prevent or clean up the problem. Robin From: IN%"amansour@play.psych.mun.ca" "Atef Mansour" 3-APR-1997 17:04:59.10 To: IN%"rdecter@msn.com" "Renee Decter" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Humor in Domestic Dogs - As An Attachment Dear Renee, I would like to let you know that your latest trial to send the paper as attatchment was a miss. I suggest for you that if you are using WordPerfect or MicrosoftWord in your original paper use the order "Save As" and save it under a new file name as ASCII text format. Then send the new file, (i.e. ASCII file) on the internet. This will keep it without change as most of North American machines can read it directly. With my best regards, Atef ------------------------------------------------ Dr. Atef A.H. Mansour 34 Newtown Rd., St. John's Nfld, Canada A1C 4E1 Tel.: (709) 722-5021 E-mail: amansour@play.psych.mun.ca ------------------------------------------------ From: IN%"amansour@play.psych.mun.ca" "Atef Mansour" 3-APR-1997 17:08:18.31 To: IN%"rdecter@msn.com" "Renee Decter" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Humor in Domestic Dogs - As An Attachment Dear Renee, I would like to let you know that your latest trial to send the paper as attatchment was a miss. I suggest for you that if you are using WordPerfect or MicrosoftWord in your original paper use the order "Save As" and save it under a new file name as ASCII text format. Then send the new file, (i.e. ASCII file) on the internet. This will keep it without change as most of North American machines can read it directly. With my best regards, Atef ------------------------------------------------ Dr. Atef A.H. Mansour 34 Newtown Rd., St. John's Nfld, Canada A1C 4E1 Tel.: (709) 722-5021 E-mail: amansour@play.psych.mun.ca ------------------------------------------------ From: IN%"D.Goodwin@soton.ac.uk" "debbie goodwin" 4-APR-1997 02:17:53.02 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Horse Conference in Mexico? I heard at a Conference this week that there's to be a wild equid conference in Mexico on the 16th and 17th September 1997. The person who told me had no further details, can anyone help with some further info about content and organisers contacts? Many thanks Debbie D.Goodwin PhD Anthrozoology Institute University of Southampton, UK From: IN%"n.ambrose@ualberta.ca" "Norine Ambrose" 4-APR-1997 14:47:56.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: cattle grazing use I am currently doing wildlife research around small sloughs/ponds ("prairie potholes") in cattle pastures in central Alberta and am trying to quantify the grazing and/or time spent by cattle in the area immediately surrounding (within 50m of the pond) these small sloughs (<3ha). I have stocking rates, but I have found this is not the best indicator of time and/or use the cattle make immediately around a pond (as they often have more that one to choose from in these pastures, may graze, drink, or just pass through). I have considered doing some form of hoof-board (like small mammal foot prints thru. powder), but just spread dirt or peat moss for x days and count prints. The problem is that in some areas, there is to much vegetation and the dirt would have to flatten the veg.; additionally, setting up a reasonable sampling regime (stratified? random? block by section of pond? avoid cow paths?) has infinite challenges. I am doing vegetation sampling, but want an independent measure of actual cattle in the pond perimeter. Observations and mapping of cattle proved ineffective last year, as cattle were seldom near the pond while we were present doing other sampling. Has anyone quantified cattle use/presence in this way (and in a relatively cheap/semi-low labour way) or are there any other suggestions on quanitifying it? Any comments would be much appreciated. Norine Ambrose M.Sc. student Dept. of Biological Sciences Univ. of Alberta Edmonton, Alberta T6G 2E9 492-1264 492-9234 (Fax) Norine Ambrose From: IN%"beaugrand.jacques@uqam.ca" "Beaugrand Jacques" 4-APR-1997 15:33:09.36 To: IN%"lpn-l@brownvm.brown.edu", IN%"ar-disc@anat.umsmed.edu", IN%"rat-talk@nic.surfnet.nl", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"vetmed-1@uga.cc.uga.edu", IN%"ETHOLOGY@SEARN.SUNET.SE", IN%"absnet-post@loris.cisab.indiana.edu", IN%"SOCIOBIO@SJUVM.STJO CC: Subj: (English) I would like to organize a symposium on the the state of Ethology as a= discipline: recent history & relationships with related sciences (psychology, behavioral= ecology, neurosciences, sociobiology, ...), current state (is it true that= it is dying ?) and possible future (including employment). I am looking for possible competent participants (which I might have= overlooked...). Your suggestions of potential contributors on this topic will be greatly= appreciated. (sorry for the multiple copies you might receive of the present message!) -- (french version): J'aimerais organiser un symposium sur l'=E9tat de l'ethologie comme= discipline: son histoire recente et ses relations avec les disciplines= voisines (psychologie, ecologie du comportement, sociobiologie, ...), sont= etat actuel (est-elle en voie de disparaitre?) et ses perspectives d'avenir= (y compris les possibilites d'emploi). Je suis =E0 la recherche de participants int=E9ressants que j'aurais pu= oublier... Toute suggestion a ce propos sera grandement appreciee. (desole pour les multiples copies que vous recevrez du present appel!) 0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0- Avec les salutations cordiales de /Kind regards from Jacques P. Beaugrand, professeur Unite d'Ethometrie, Dept Psychologie, Universite du Quebec a Montreal, BP 8888, Succ. Centre-Ville Montreal, Quebec, Canada H3C-3P8 -- 514-987-4801 (BV/Voix-ce/Bureau) Internet: beaugrand.jacques@uqam.ca=20 514-987-7953 (Fax) _\\|//_ 514-949-1257 (Mobile) ///|\\\ @ =A6 @ ----------------------oOO--(_)--OOo-----------------------------=20 =20 Visitez mon site Web/Visit my Home page: =20 http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r20370/ =20 =20 Site de la SQEBC: http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r20370/sqebc.htm =20 Site de l'AFEEE: http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r20370/afeee.htm =20 Site de la SQRP: http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r20370/sqrp.htm =20 =20 ---------------------oOOO------OOOo-----------------------------=20 =20 From: IN%"rnewberry@wsu.edu" 4-APR-1997 22:05:51.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: technical position available Technical Position Available __________________________________________________________ A technical position (2 years, half time) is available at the College of Veterinary Medicine, Washington State University in Pullman, Washington. The position will include behavioural observations of farm animals (primarily chickens), video analysis of behaviour, animal care, measuring morphological characteristics, evaluating clinical health, blood and tissue sampling, record keeping, running statistical analyses, preparing computer graphics and preparing written reports. QUALIFICATIONS: BSc in zoology / psychology / animal science or equivalent; university courses in animal behavior and statistics; experience working in a research setting; computing skills; good interpersonal communication skills; and a strong interest in assessing farm animal behavior and well-being. Knowledge of poultry behavior desirable. Preference is given to US residents. Please send your letter of application, CV, and names, phone/fax numbers / email addresses of three referees to: Dr. Ruth Newberry ___________________________________________________________________ Ruth C. Newberry, PhD Center for the Study of Animal Well-being Dept. of Animal Sciences & College of Veterinary Medicine Washington State University PO Box 646351 Pullman WA 99164-6351 USA Tel. 509-335-5059 Fax. 509-335-4246 Email. RNEWBERRY@WSU.EDU From: IN%"heyer92@injersey.com" "Robert Heyer" 6-APR-1997 12:04:07.49 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: new user Hello users, I would like to introduce myself to the network. My name is Dr. Robert Heyer, I am a zoologist and Biology teacher. I have recently opened a pet behavior counseling service in Red Bank, NJ. I look very foward to participating in the network. From: IN%"peter.penning@bbsrc.ac.uk" "Peter Penning" 7-APR-1997 04:45:21.73 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cattle Grazing Use The system we have used to identify areas grazed by sheep could be used. However, it is not cheap! We used GPS receivers fitted to the animals coupled to grazing behaviour recorders. Using differential correction we were able to estimate the position of the animals to within about 5m and were able to tell whether they were eating, ruminating or idling from recordings of their jaw movements. See papers by: Roberts et al. (1995) A low powered postprocessed DGPS system for logging locations of sheep on hill pastures. Navigation: Journal of the Institution of Navigation 42: 327-336. Rutter et al (1997) Use of GPS to identify the grazing areas of hill sheep. Computers and Electronics in Agriculture (Special Edition). In press. An alternative method might by to use the German Ethosys equipment. This equipment, I believe although I have not used it, uses a base station so that when animals come within a few meters of this station, data are downloaded automatically from behaviour equipment fitted to the animals. This might give an indication of the times when animals were near the ponds. Peter Penning IGER North Wyke From: IN%"jkincaid@oncomdis.on.ca" 7-APR-1997 11:47:39.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Review of Book and VetBase disk Hello All; Found these in the Animal Welfare Information Centre News Letter Winter 1996/1997 and thought others would be interested in them Book Review: AATA Manual for the Transport of Live Animals by Road The preface begins, "It is probable that every domesticated animal travels by road at least once in a lifetime. "This well-established fact makes the Animal Transportation Association (AATA) manual an important resource to gaining a better understanding of what is required to ensure the well-being of an animal being moved from one location to another. There is, unfortunately, a scarcity of books' texts, or guides that include practical and essential factors that contribute to a safe and humane journey for animals in transit by road. Such factors are important to ensuring that the animal arrives at its destination having experienced minimal stress and weight loss and its well-being has not been compromised during the journey. This AATA manual is a most significant contribution to ensuring that those in the animal transport industry have a practical source of information on not only the regulations but the how-to and reasons for providing conditions ensuring that animals arrive safely at their destinations. The manual contains information mainly related to road transportation of animals in the United Kingdom and European Community and there is no question that European shippers would be remiss and even delinquent in their responsibilities if they did not have this resource at their fingertips for daily use. It is also a good resource for everyone worldwide involved in transportation of animals. It is particularly valuable for North American and other shippers engaged in the transatlantic shipment of animals. The manual is a ready reference listing all air, sea, and road entry pomts in Europe. This AATA manual complements the IATA (International Air Transport Association) Live Animal Regulations (23d edition, effective October 1, 1996) because every animal that is transported by air has to be delivered and connected by road. It has own style and flavor, providing practical and often essential information necessary for responsible handling of animals during road transport. Most chapters have information giving mandatory requirements for those shipping animals by road anywhere in the world. The AATA manual contains many universally applicable. features such as vehicle requirements, ventilation, safety, animal weIfare and health, food and water as well as stocking and loading densities. These cover not only livestock but also pets, laboratorv species, and wild animals. Tim Harris and his associates are to be commended for putting this living document together. They intend to upgrade and ate it regularly to include all countries. Contributions to this process are solicited and will be carefully considered. Harry C. Rowsell, D.VM., Editor, AATA Newsletter VETBASE One of the more frequently asked questions at AWIC concerns drug dosages to be given to animals. Now there is a great resource available to help researchers and veterinarians answer these questions. Vetbase (ISBN 90-803346-2-6) is a database of veterinary dosages for non-antibiotic drugs. The database, compiled by J.D. Kuiper, D.V.M. and H.J. Kuiper, Ph.D. at Utrecht University, contains information on more than 800 drugs for use in over 100 animal species including all laboratory and farm animals, zoo animals, fish, amphibians, and reptiles. The database lists more than 10,000 with over 4500 of these for pain and anesthesia. Vetbase is easy to search using built-in search commands. The user picks the species of interest and can then search for information based on a specific drug (ketamine, ivermectin, etc.) or pharmaceutical class (anesthetics, analgesics, anthelmintics, etc and, if desired, route of administration. The information that is retrieved includes the drug name, dosage(s), route of administration, and literature references. System requirements are: Windows 3.1 or Windows 95, 15 Mb free space on the hard disk, and 500 K RAM available internalmemory. For more information or to order, contact Hajoka Informatie & Advies, Graafschap 7, 3524 TL Utrecht, The Netherlands or fax: +31 30 289 42 51 The cost is US $250. Take care and hope this helps somebody John From: IN%"dynavet@nat.fr" "Xavier Aubry" 9-APR-1997 09:39:26.63 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: International Behaviour Meeting - Milano, Italy, April 25th Dear colleagues, The first international italian behaviour meeting will be held in Milano on 25th April 1997. Subject is "behavioural disorders in dogs and cats". This meeting will include speakers from Italy, France, United Kingdom and Belgium. Speakers will lecture in their mother language, with a written translation in italian of their abstracts and slides. Those interested in participating to the seminar should contact the local organizer, Mr Rinaldo Zorzi, Monza, tel/fax +39 39 329 429=20 Looking forward to seeing you in Milano, Xavier Aubry, France dynavet@nat.fr Please find details herewith (in Italian). Please forward this message to your colleagues. To get further details in french or english, please contact me e-mail dynavet@nat.fr or fax +33 4 73 90 83 46. Advanced registration fee : LIT 90 000 (USD 54) On-the-spot fee : LIT 99 000 (USD 60) VENERDI 25 APRILE FIERA MILANO Sala Bizzozzero=20 Primo seminario internazionale in Italia sui problemi di comportamento negli Animali da compagnia UNA NUOVA SFIDA VETERINARIA : I PROBLEMI DEL COMPORTAMENTO PROGRAMMA 08:55 Ricevimento, iscrizione, caff=E8 09:20 Messaggio di benvenuto=20 Dr. Franco MONTI, Presidente SISCA (1) 09:30 I disturbi del comportamento negli animali domestic Prof. Marina VERGA, Univ. degli Studi, Milano, Consigliere SISCA (1) 10:15 Domande & Risposte 10:30 Terapie comportamentali e tecniche di modifica del comportamento: la situazione italiana =20 Dr. Pier Vittorio MOLINARIO, Etologo, L.P, Consigliere SISCA (1) 11:15 Domande & Risposte 11:30 Influenza dell'alimentazione nel comportamento canino Dr. Roger MUGFORD, The Animal Behaviour Center, Inghilterra Dr. Samantha LINLEY The Animal Behaviour Center, Inghilterra 12:00 Domande & Risposte 12:15 Pranzo a buffet 13:30 Trattamento della marchiatura con le urine nel Gatto - Importanza dei feromoni facciali Dr. Patrick PAGEAT, Ph=E9rosynth=E8se, Francia=20 13:45 Trattamento degli abbaiamenti territoriali eccessivi - Importanza dello stimolo distraente Dr. Xavier AUBRY, Dynavet, Francia=20 14:00 (Breve comunicazione in corso di selezione) 14:15 Domande & Risposte riguardo le tre comunicazioni precedenti 14:30 Semiologia e patologia del comportamento del cane : fondamenti= dell'esame comportamentale Dr. Patrick PAGEAT, Presidente GECAF (2), Francia=20 =09 15:15 Domande & Risposte 15:30 Coffee - break 16:00 Una entit=E0 patologica ricorrente nel cane: l'ansia da separazione Dr. Patrick PAGEAT, Presidente GECAF (2), Francia=20 16:45 Domande & Risposte 17:00 Turbe ansiose nel gatto Dr. Jo=EBl DEHASSE, Presidente GERC (3),= Belgio 17:45 Domande & Risposte 18:0O Dibattito sulla gestione del Comportamento. Veterinari, Allevatori, Educatori, e Proprietari : responsabilit=E0 professionali e principi deontologici Dr. i. : M. VERGA, P. V. MOLINARIO, P. PAGEAT, R. MUGFORD, S. LINLEY, J.DEHASSE, X.AUBRY - Moderatore : Dott.ssa M.L. QUATTRINA 18:30 Ringraziamenti e chiusura Col patrocinio delle seguenti istituzioni, associazioni ed organizzazioni : SCIVAC - SISCA - VIMAX=20 DYNAVET (F) - SANOFI Sant=E9 Nutrition Animale (F) MARKETING 200O (CH) (1) SISCA: Societ=E0 Italiana Scienze Comportamentali Applicate, Italia (2) CECAF: Groupe d'Etude en Comportement des Animaux Familiers, Francia (3) GERC : Groupe d'Etude et de Recherche en Comportement des Animaux de Compagnie, Belgio SCIVAC: Societ=E0 Culturale Italiana Veterinari per Animali da Compagnia INVITO Chiusura delle iscrizioni: 18 aprile 1997 Contributo di partecipazione: Lit 90.000 Numero di partecipanti: limitato a 220 Iscrizioni pcr telefono o fax a: Sig. Rinaldo ZORZI, tel/fax: 039 329 429 int. +39 39 329 429 Grazie alla generosita dei nostri sponsors, la tassa di iscrizione sar=E0 limitata a Lit. 90.000 per le iscrizioni non oltre il 18 aprile 1997. L'importo va versato entro tale data a : BANCO DESIO, via Rota, 20052 Monza C.ABI 03440 - CAB 20403 C/C 2559-00-9 intestato a Rinaldo ZORZI Rif: Convegno 25 aprile Limitatamente alla disponibilit=E0 dei posti, le iscrizioni ricevute dopo il 18.4.97 saranno aggravate di Lit. 9.000 Pagabili all'atto dell'iscrizione presso il seminario: FIERA MILANO - Sala Bizzozzero Entrata Porta Sei Febbraio 2 Accesso gratuito ai padiglioni di ZOOMARK Ci felicitiamo per la vostra partecipazione. From: IN%"mlamot@linkline.be" "Mik the small pet" 9-APR-1997 12:24:01.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: question Bonjour , Est-ce normal que un gors chien noir terre-neuve fonce toujours sur le grillage de son jardin alors que nous passons gentillemen ef fait peur a nos chien tellement peur que mes chiens deviennent presque fous ? merci mm mm i k k m m m m i k k m m m m i k k m m m m i k k m m m m i kk m m m i k k m m i k k m m i k k m m i k k \=/, | @___oo /\ /\ / (___,,,} ) /^\) ^\/ _) ) /^\/ _) ) _ / / _) /\ )/\/ || | )_) < > |(,,) )__) || / \)___)\ | \____( )___) )___ \______(_______;;; __;;; ULTHAR DRAGON : MIK THE SMALL PET http://www.mygale.org/09/mik/ From: IN%"rene.anzellotti@skynet.be" 9-APR-1997 23:29:09.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: chien-race-boxer-2 ans Docteur, mon chien est tr=E8s doux =E0 la maison,mais d=E8s qu'il est =E0 l'ext=E9rie= ur il est tr=E8s agressif avec les autres chiens,que faire? From: IN%"Petra.Mertens@lrz.uni-muenchen.de" 10-APR-1997 00:15:37.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: chien-race-boxer-2 ans Although we`re aware that behavioral problems exist in France / Fresh-speaking countries either, I feel it would be helpful to post these messages in English if one cares for replies from different countries. This language discussion has been "reurgitated" at different meetings previously. I get the impression that this sudden occurence of frensh postings is related to the conference in Birmingham last week?! Flooding the news goup with these behavioral questions en francais (oder zur Abwechselung mal auf Deutsch?) won`t help much. Obviously, no other country is attempting to force everyone to use another language - very few doubt that speaking English is the basis of exchanging ideas internationally. Personally, I think francais is a beautiful language, but simply not spoken frequently enough to be suitable. Petra ____________ Dr. P.A. Mertens Institute for Ethology and Animal Welfare Ludwig-Maximilians-University Schwere-Reitre-Str. 9 80797 Muenchen Germany petra.mertens@lrz.uni-muenchen.de From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 10-APR-1997 03:45:47.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Chauvinistic Solecisms I was at the Birmingham meeting and I noticed a certain "frisson". There was more than one reference to ideas or beliefs held in (I quote) "that part of Europe which speaks french". Ever one to daydream if the speaker drones or drears, I began to ruminate upon the possible location or borders of this "country". I deduced that it might be France, part of Belgium, Luxembourg and one corner of Switzerland? I found myself chosing a name.."Greater Francophonia!". I was then reminded of "Grosser Deutchland" and then of course the possible politics of such an entity..and then the thought of a President Le Pen (perhaps) and then memories of Degrelle.. abandoning the dark thread of chauvinism's history I tried to listen to the talk... That is when I began to think about Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (who as you all know) suppressed the pirate ports along the southern coasts of Asia Minor around 67 B.C His fleet rediscovered the little lost city of Soli. This was a Alexandrian greek colony which had been cut off for three centuries being inaccessible by land and too dangerous to approach by sea because of the piracy. Anyway, to get to the point, the inhabitants of Soli soke a very strange sort of "greek" which had evolved in isolation. Pompeys' sailors and marines just fell about laughing at the "solecisms" that these people uttered. Their grammar had become their own invention. And that was my feeling about some of the the Gallic contribution in Birmingham. One had to listen carefully. The science and the subject matter was quite excellent and recognizable as "Behaviour Stuff" but ...it had its own (isolationist) vocabulary of terms and descriptions....there needed to be a much better translation into English ...and I felt that there was an undercurrent of annoyance that this should be endured. When China decided (in 1982) that English was to be the official second language taught in schools ..globally it was "game set and match" for english. I was in Greece when it was announced,learning the language. I was having great difficulty getting greeks to talk greek to me..they were much more interested in practising their english. I kept at it and eventually taught modern greek for tourists at the local Technical College (for fun). I used to go sailing in Greek waters. In the tiniest taverns in the most secluded bays in the remotest islands ...they spoke English. On arriving in Turkey (Marmaris) in 1986 with a party delivering yachts for the tourist trade.I discovered a Turkish community with German as its second language. Hurrah! At last! A reason to learn German! (Sorry Petra!). I enrolled at the Technical College and terrorized the German teacher....two years later I arrived in Marmaris with another flotilla of spendid, beautiful BENETEAU (yes french) yachts (cheer up les gosses!). It was too late.. the entire commercial community had learned English! There is no Anglo-Saxophonic plot ...it has just happened ..and money is at the root of it. From: IN%"Anne.Olsen@SH.DK" "Anne N.W. Olsen" 10-APR-1997 05:40:20.37 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Calling USA!! - Somebody working with alternatively housed slaughter pigs? Dear everyone Are somebody in USA working with alternative systems for slaughter pigs? In Denmark most ecologically raised pigs live outside until they are about seven weeks old, but hereafter most of the piglets are moved to an indoor pen with access to an outdoor area with concrete floor. In order to enrich this environment, it is fixed by law that the pigs must have free access to roughage. However, no attempts are made in order to ensure the possibility for the pigs to find shade in the outdoor area. Soon, I'm going to start a project with the purpose of revealing the effects of free access to roughage and partly covered outdoor area on the social, heat regulating and explorative behaviour of slaughter pigs. IF YOU ARE WORKING WITH A CLOSELY RELATED SUBJECT, I SHOULD BE GLAD TO HEAR FROM YOU On 26-30 May, I going to participate in the Fifth International Livestock Environment Symposium in Minneapolis, Minnesota. If it will be possible for me to meet or visit somebody who is working with a related subject, I would be happy if it could be arranged in connection with this symposium! Yours Sincerely Anne Olsen Danish Institute of Agricultural Science Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Research Centre Bygholm DK-8700 Horsens Denmark Phone: +45 75 60 22 11 Fax: +45 75 62 48 80 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 10-APR-1997 07:27:01.73 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: la belle langue francaise pour ceux qui veulent discuter le comportement animal en francais, il y a "la_fee@uqam.ca" qui n'accepte que les messages en francais! (par consequent les ignorants sont exclus) Donc envoyez un message qui dit subscribe la_fee Nom Prenom a listproc@uqam.ca ou contactez Jacques Beaugrand a beaugrand.jacques@uqam.ca bonne chance! Jeff Rushen rushenj@em.agr.ca From: IN%"schilder@neuretp.biol.ruu.nl" 10-APR-1997 07:28:20.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"schilder@neuretp.biol.ruu.nl" Subj: RE: the limper and the gobbler >Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 13:14:13 -0400 >From: Sonia Schmerl >Reply-To: sschmerl@umich.edu >Subject: the limper and the gobbler >To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca >cc: schilder@neuretp.biol.ruu.nl > >>sonia wrote: >> >I think I remember reading a desription of an ape in captivity (I don't >remember the species or who the observer was) who was observed to >discover the location of some hidden food, and to avoid the cache until >other apes were otherwise occupied, whereupon he availed himself of the >hidden goodies unmolested. This was presented as an example of >"deception." What do you all think? > >Sonia Dear Sonia, In the example you describe above I recognize the behaviour of Nikkie, on= e of=20 our males at the Arnhem Zoo chimp colony. The example has been described by= my=20 former colleague Frans de Waal in one of his books. Indeed I feel that this= is=20 deception in the sense that Nikkie witheld information from rival chimps.= =20 He seems to have learned that going to the hidden food in the wrong moment= may=20 lead to some unpleasant consequences, including the loss of the food. Anoth= er=20 explanation could be that he had insight in what would occur if he went to = the=20 hidden food staight away. This explanation, that would hint at higher order= =20 intentionality, would mean that he had insight in how the others would rea= ct,=20 perhaps even think. Neither explanation can be disregarded. To be honest, I forgot how Frans d= e=20 Waal explained this example. From: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 10-APR-1997 07:50:06.42 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: the limper and the gobbler Dear Jon et al. > I think I'm noticing a tendency for things we formerly assumed to require > "high" cognitive abilities to turn out to be possible without such > abilities, for people to anthropomorphise over the skills required to > achieve a certain goal and for apparently complicated behaviour patterns > to arise from fairly simple rules. This theme seems to crop up everywhere > these days, from fractal geometry to computer-simulated neuroethology to > animal "language" studies. > > Seems that a salvo from Lloyd Morgan's Canon might be in order, to reduce > the complexity to a more meaningful collection of rubble. > > Of course in some cases invoking a "higher" cognitive faculty might be the > more parsimonious explanation. What seems to get overlooked however is > that the cognitive representations of animals are as likely to be utterly > alien to us as they are to be recognisable. It might be that we can only > interpret a certain action in human terms as deception, or > misrepresentation. Its significance to the animal might be completely > different. Perhaps some animals might not partition external reality and > internal processing as separate entities in the way that we tend to do > (unless we are "sick"). It only looks to us as if the animal is exploiting > an internal mental state to influence the outside world because we > interpret these as different. > > My contention is not that animals don't have minds, but rather that their > minds may be more different from ours than we are capable of imagining. Wittgenstein said 'If a lion could talk, we would not understand him [sic]'. This has started a train of thought related to what I heard Mary Midgley say at the Edinburgh Science Festival a couple of weeks ago. She decried the recent tendency to separate the concepts of mind and body (in humans) - as in discussions of whether there is such a thing as 'free will'. Previously, 'I did it of my own free will' simply meant 'I wasn't forced to do it by anyone or anything else'. Her point was that OF COURSE mind and body are inter-related. We could extend Midgley's point to say that we can not separate the mind and body of an animal: we have to find (indeed, we do find) ways of dealing with animals that do not involve complete understanding of how their minds work. I doubt even Skinner kicked his dog: he used normal 'rules of thumb' in interacting with other people and, presumably, with animals. Dennett would say that these rules include the 'intentional stance'. The ways in which we treat animals are probably affected by some estimate of their cognition (although it is not obvious HOW this should affect treatment) and other factors such as their relevance to us (cf. Midgley again). Rollin comments that society is shifting in this respect - away from the 'kindness/cruelty ethic' towards something more related to animal rights. On the old theme of 'I told you so' this brings me back to the 'holistic' view of animal welfare I was suggesting some months ago. Analysis of the different ways of viewing animal welfare is very interesting (David Fraser does this well in a forthcoming article in Animal Welfare: he suggests there are three views, emphasising functioning, feelings and natural living), but we could (and perhaps do) make more progress with an integrated view (while remembering, as David points out, that no 'scientific definition' will free us from the involvement of value judgements). Mind you, my poster on this at the Guelph conference went down like a lead balloon, so perhaps we're not ready for a consensus yet... Mike mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk From: IN%"sgadbois@is2.dal.ca" "Simon Gadbois" 10-APR-1997 08:04:35.28 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chauvinistic Solecisms >I was at the Birmingham meeting and I noticed a certain "frisson". >There was more than one reference to ideas or beliefs held in (I >quote) "that part of Europe which speaks french". Ever one to >daydream if the speaker drones or drears, I began to ruminate upon >the possible location or borders of this "country". I deduced that >it might be France, part of Belgium, Luxembourg and one corner of >Switzerland? I found myself chosing a name.."Greater >Francophonia!". I was then reminded of "Grosser Deutchland" and >then of course the possible politics of such an entity..and then >the thought of a President Le Pen (perhaps) and then memories of >Degrelle.. abandoning the dark thread of chauvinism's history I >tried to listen to the talk... > >That is when I began to think about Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (who as >you all know) suppressed the pirate ports along the southern coasts >of Asia Minor around 67 B.C > >His fleet rediscovered the little lost city of Soli. This was a >Alexandrian greek colony which had been cut off for three centuries >being inaccessible by land and too dangerous to approach by sea >because of the piracy. Anyway, to get to the point, the >inhabitants of Soli soke a very strange sort of "greek" which had >evolved in isolation. Pompeys' sailors and marines just fell about >laughing at the "solecisms" that these people uttered. Their >grammar had become their own invention. > >And that was my feeling about some of the the Gallic contribution in >Birmingham. One had to listen carefully. The science and the subject >matter was quite excellent and recognizable as "Behaviour Stuff" but >...it had its own (isolationist) vocabulary of terms and >descriptions....there needed to be a much better translation into >English ...and I felt that there was an undercurrent of annoyance >that this should be endured. > >When China decided (in 1982) that English was to be the official >second language taught in schools ..globally it was "game set and >match" for english. I was in Greece when it was announced,learning >the language. I was having great difficulty getting greeks to talk >greek to me..they were much more interested in practising their >english. I kept at it and eventually taught modern greek for >tourists at the local Technical College (for fun). I used to go >sailing in Greek waters. In the tiniest taverns in the most >secluded bays in the remotest islands ...they spoke English. > >On arriving in Turkey (Marmaris) in 1986 with a party delivering >yachts for the tourist trade.I discovered a Turkish community with >German as its second language. Hurrah! At last! A reason to learn >German! (Sorry Petra!). I enrolled at the Technical College and >terrorized the German teacher....two years later I arrived in >Marmaris with another flotilla of spendid, beautiful BENETEAU (yes >french) yachts (cheer up les gosses!). > >It was too late.. the entire commercial community had learned >English! > >There is no Anglo-Saxophonic plot ...it has just happened ..and >money is at the root of it. I am very interested by what you are saying, as a francophone, as a non-european, as a french canadian. I have a few comments, not an attack, just thoughts, observations. I don't want to start a political debate, being seen as pro-this or pro-that... etc. A few observations: Anglo-saxon behavioral science (dominant, no doubt) is seen by francophones as very... "anglo-saxon". Anglo-saxons (anglo-canadians, americans, british, etc) see French behavioral science as very "gallicist". This is the point where culture influences science and scientific thinking, where "ideas" are not just scientific but also artistic ideas...cultural ideas. Other country have a very distinctive flavor to their scientific approaches of the behavioral sciences: Eastern european countries for instance, especially in animal psychology. All this I think is great and fascinating. What is disturbing is: (1) to begin to consider one approach as THE STANDARD, (2) fight the idea that, for now, english is the lingua franca of science (francophones will have to accept this). BUT, national "flavors" and styles can still be preserved and hopefully they will be. Adjusting the vocabulary may not be that easy, different concepts can emerge, interesting perspectives or angles developed because of different scientific traditions. When I think of French behavioral science, I think of a few "characteristics" such as "not crazy about Darminism (very critical about it)", "Piagetian" (animal psychology), more "philosophical" and psychoanalytic (human behavior), etc. These are labels, crude generalizations. Some of these present or past trends are "traditional", others are "reactionary". It is possible that francophones are not totally comfortable about the "fall" of their cultural empire, that this transpires in their scientific endeavours. Sad, really. This could be a strenght: being different and sharing these differences with others...in the lingua franca of science but the "others" would have to be open. "Greater Francophonia" (Walker, 1997) also includes... well, parts of Africa, Asia and North America... including Quebec. In Quebec (an other observation) you find a very interesting blend of anglo-saxon and gallicist behavioral science. A "juste milieu", critical of both sides. It gave birth to a strong piagetian animal psychology (Mathieu, Dore, etc) for example and very eclectic developmental psychology (Piaget's influence again). But you can often feel another "malaise", an even more developed sense of "a terminology of ours". At the CIFCA conference in Quebec city last summer (Conference Internationale Francophone sur le Comportement Animal or "International French Conference on Animal Behavior", my translation), I was amazed to see the French exasperated with the Quebecois' obsession (their perception) of a "proper french terminology". Quebecois were often more french than the French... (this is often observed in Quebec about cultural matters and even language use: the French have far more "anglicisms" than the Quebecois, ironically). MY POINT IS THIS: you can't separate the way science is done and thought of in a country from the cultural (good) and often political (bad) background of that country... especially if that country, nation or cultural entity (e.g. "francophonie") feels threatened because of increasing demographic disadvantage, domination of american culture and economics, etc. There is a line between being proud of a linguistic and cultural vitality and becoming racist/chauvinist (and automatically associated with LePenn...). The problem is that it is a fine line that too many are crossing. Empires are ephemeral. The Golden Years (centuries...) of France and French are over. Before it, the scientific world was speaking and writing Latin, after, it wrote Russian and English, and then English. With an increasing number of people having english as a second language but a rapidly shrinking number of people having english as a first language, it would be silly to think that the supremacy of english is forever: we should all remember this and be happy that we can all communicate in one language BUT keep our rich approaches, perspectives and distinctions in the way we do science and think of science. The language of science is a medium, the language of culture is an identity. Sad if some francophones mix the two issues, sad if some of the non-francophones don't see the interest. Simon Gadbois Department of Psychology Life Sciences Centre Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada, B3H 4J1 sgadbois@is2.dal.ca 902-494-3603 (Fentress's lab) 902-494-3370 (Moger's lab) 902-494-6585 (fax) Behavioral (social) endocrinology of the wolf (aggression and social stress, urinary cortisol). Temperament in animals. Sequential and temporal analysis of behavior. From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 10-APR-1997 08:45:25.73 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chauvinistic Solecisms -REPONSE Simon Gadbois wrote: >>> Anglo-saxons (anglo-canadians, americans, british, etc) see French behavioral science as very "gallicist".>>> Given that people of Japanese, Jewish, Mexican, Chinese, Indian, native Indian, Cuban, African, Jamaican, Haitian, Vietnamese, Polish, Hungarian, Swedish etc. etc. origin probably now together make up a majority of the American and "anglo-Canadian" populations, classifying them as "anglo-saxon" seems rather gallicist! I think part of the french-speakers' problem is that they still equate the use of the english language with anglo-saxon. It is the language of international conferences because it is likely to be the only language that someone from Costa Rica and someone from Korea will have in common. Cultural shadings to ethology certainly are fascinating, but I am not sure they are a GOOD THING. If the study of animal behaviour (as opposed to the study of human behaviour) wants to be scientific, it probably should rid itself of any terms that are not perfectly translatable into different languages (je pense). I am not aware that there is a "french nuclear physics" (as oppoosed to french nuclear physicists) Jeff Rushen rushenj@em.agr.ca From: IN%"sgadbois@is2.dal.ca" "Simon Gadbois" 10-APR-1997 09:26:34.11 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chauvinistic Solecisms -CLARIFICATION >Simon Gadbois wrote: >>>> Anglo-saxons (anglo-canadians, americans, british, etc) see >French behavioral science as very "gallicist".>>> > >Given that people of Japanese, Jewish, Mexican, Chinese, Indian, native >Indian, Cuban, African, Jamaican, Haitian, Vietnamese, Polish, Hungarian, >Swedish etc. etc. origin probably now together make up a majority of the >American and "anglo-Canadian" populations, classifying them as >"anglo-saxon" seems rather gallicist! I am sorry, I realize I should have used the word "anglophones" (does it really exist in english?) since I meant "linguistic community" and not referring to any "ethnic" (specifically anglo saxon or other) group. By linguistic community I mean "people communicating in english". So I agree with you that my choice of word was not right. I think part of the french-speakers' >problem is that they still equate the use of the english language with >anglo-saxon. It is the language of international conferences because it is >likely to be the only language that someone from Costa Rica and >someone from Korea will have in common. That was actually part of my point (politics in science). I agree again. My posting clearly stated that I agree 100% with english being the lingua franca of science. Again: I am not provoquing, but I am suggesting tolerance. Tolerance for different (cultural, national) perspectives and tolerance for the acceptance of english as the medium of science. Cultural shadings to ethology >certainly are fascinating, but I am not sure they are a GOOD THING. If the >study of animal behaviour (as opposed to the study of human behaviour) >wants to be scientific, it probably should rid itself of any terms that are >not perfectly translatable into different languages (je pense). I am not >aware that there is a "french nuclear physics" (as oppoosed to french >nuclear physicists) You may be right about this, although the problem of translation with social and behavioral sciences is very real. It is often difficult to translate studies on social behavior in wolves (my work), because of subtleties in concepts and different "connotations". Physics, molecular biology, etc. still use less abstracts terms. In ethology, I am not sure if I could translate easily the concept of "bout" (segment peut-etre...) and anyway, confusion among ethologists on the definition of bout is obvious (temporal definition for some, cluster of identical behaviors for others, etc.). If these problems appear WITHIN a language there are very likely to appear BETWEEN languages. Simon Gadbois Department of Psychology Life Sciences Centre Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada, B3H 4J1 sgadbois@is2.dal.ca 902-494-3603 (Fentress's lab) 902-494-3370 (Moger's lab) 902-494-6585 (fax) Behavioral (social) endocrinology of the wolf (aggression and social stress, urinary cortisol). Temperament in animals. Sequential and temporal analysis of behavior. From: IN%"pherosynthese@wanadoo.fr" 10-APR-1997 10:19:24.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: french ethology What a fuss about a poor Flemish Belgian man who roughly tried to ask his french-speaking colleagues for information ! Few people may object that English is the more convenient scientific language, but it should be remembered that some people can't express themselves in a sufficiently understandable English. And maybe this guy expected an answer from a French-speaking colleague, for cultural and practical reasons. Is it a reason to sentence him to banishment ? Anyhow, this tiny event will have raised interesting discussions ! From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 10-APR-1997 11:03:42.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: french ethology -REPONSE >>> 10/04/ 12h33 >>> What a fuss about a poor Flemish Belgian man who roughly tried to ask his french-speaking colleagues for information ! (snip) Anyhow, this tiny event will have raised interesting discussions !>>> It shows what degree of emotions can be associated with this issue! I just received a message claiming that I was racist because I drew peoples attention to the french-language animal behaviour list (!?!) Anyway, it is an important and current issue. Although the choice of english as the international language for science is the least exclusive choice (in that it is probably the language that the fewest number of scientists can't speak), it is certainly true that it reduces the partcipation of scientists whose mother tongue is not english. At the last ISAE council meeting we discussed the possibility of translating ISAE membership information into different languages, which might be possible, but I don't really see what we can do for the conferences. One suggestion was that we ensure that some "translators" are available at each session to translate questions and answers, at least. Personally I don't see any problem in people sending messages to applied-ethology in different languages, as long a the sender realizes that many people won't understand. I already delete unread so many messages that come my way that adding a few more won't hurt. The danger is that encouraging the use of other languages in the ISAE ( or in science in general) although well-intentioned, and having some positive effects, risks fragmenting the filed. Incidently, what happened at Birmingham to trigger all of this off? Jeff Rushen From: IN%"sgadbois@is2.dal.ca" "Simon Gadbois" 10-APR-1997 11:52:33.06 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: french ethology -REPONSE >>>> 10/04/ 12h33 >>> >What a fuss about a poor Flemish Belgian man who roughly tried to ask >his french-speaking colleagues for information ! (snip) >Anyhow, this tiny event will have raised interesting discussions !>>> > >It shows what degree of emotions can be associated with this issue! I >just received a message claiming that I was racist because I drew >peoples attention to the french-language animal behaviour list (!?!) I hope you are not referring to my comment because I was not suggesting this at all !!! I just got an e-mail from a francophone colleague that suggested I should "calm down"; I want to make sure that the tone of my messages are not interpreted as aggressive or provocative, on the contrary, if they are read carefully, I think they suggest openess (to all) WITHOUT accusations of racism or else (or at least they were meant that way). I should have kept my thoughts for myself obviously, since it is escalating to accusations or perception of accusations. My initial intention was to point-out, following Dr. Walker's message, the importance of cultural factors, no more, no less. "Amicalement", Simon Gadbois From: IN%"heather@jukebox.demon.co.uk" "heather j. cole" 10-APR-1997 13:59:40.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ethology mailing list" CC: Subj: veggie dogs i am seeking information about vegetarianism for dogs: the nutritional quality of commercial food (e.g. "happy dog") and how to make it taste better (gravies), making your own veggie dog food, and ideas for food treats for training? references for books and papers on this matter would also be most appreciated. cheers! heather j. cole From: IN%"d163570@er.uqam.ca" "CLOUTIER SYLVIE" 10-APR-1997 15:29:39.41 To: IN%"Petra.Mertens@lrz.uni-muenchen.de" "Dr. Petra A. Mertens" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: chien-race-boxer-2 ans Although I agree that english is a more international language you should not condemn that particular message written in french on the ISAE discussion group. May be that person did not know that french is not used by most of the people on the discussion group. Or may be it does not speak english! One message written in french out of a thousand is not a crime! Please this is a scientific discussion group not a political one. Sylvie Dr. Sylvie Cloutier Departement de Psychologie Universite du Quebec a Montreal C.P. 8888, succ. Centre-Ville Montreal QC H3C 3P8 Canada email: D163570@er.uqam.ca On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Dr. Petra A. Mertens wrote: > Although we`re aware that behavioral problems exist in France / > Fresh-speaking countries either, I feel it would be helpful to post > these messages in English if one cares for replies from different > countries. > This language discussion has been "reurgitated" at different meetings > previously. I get the impression that this sudden occurence of frensh > postings is related to the conference in Birmingham last week?! > Flooding the news goup with these behavioral questions en francais > (oder zur Abwechselung mal auf Deutsch?) won`t help much. > Obviously, no other country is attempting to force everyone to use > another language - very few doubt that speaking English is the basis > of exchanging ideas internationally. > Personally, I think francais is a beautiful language, but simply not > spoken frequently enough to be suitable. > > Petra > ____________ > Dr. P.A. Mertens > Institute for Ethology and Animal Welfare > Ludwig-Maximilians-University > Schwere-Reitre-Str. 9 > 80797 Muenchen > Germany > petra.mertens@lrz.uni-muenchen.de From: IN%"d163570@er.uqam.ca" "CLOUTIER SYLVIE" 10-APR-1997 15:32:46.64 To: IN%"Petra.Mertens@lrz.uni-muenchen.de" "Dr. Petra A. Mertens" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: chien-race-boxer-2 ans Although I agree that english is a more international language you should not condemn that particular message written in french on the ISAE discussion group. May be that person did not know that french is not used by most of the people on the discussion group. Or may be it does not speak english! One message written in french out of a thousand is not a crime! Please this is a scientific discussion group not a political one. Sylvie Dr. Sylvie Cloutier Departement de Psychologie Universite du Quebec a Montreal C.P. 8888, succ. Centre-Ville Montreal QC H3C 3P8 Canada email: D163570@er.uqam.ca On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Dr. Petra A. Mertens wrote: > Although we`re aware that behavioral problems exist in France / > Fresh-speaking countries either, I feel it would be helpful to post > these messages in English if one cares for replies from different > countries. > This language discussion has been "reurgitated" at different meetings > previously. I get the impression that this sudden occurence of frensh > postings is related to the conference in Birmingham last week?! > Flooding the news goup with these behavioral questions en francais > (oder zur Abwechselung mal auf Deutsch?) won`t help much. > Obviously, no other country is attempting to force everyone to use > another language - very few doubt that speaking English is the basis > of exchanging ideas internationally. > Personally, I think francais is a beautiful language, but simply not > spoken frequently enough to be suitable. > > Petra > ____________ > Dr. P.A. Mertens > Institute for Ethology and Animal Welfare > Ludwig-Maximilians-University > Schwere-Reitre-Str. 9 > 80797 Muenchen > Germany > petra.mertens@lrz.uni-muenchen.de From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 10-APR-1997 17:02:27.97 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: animals I want to discuss domestic animal behaviour and related issues. Anyone know of a suitable list? Jon;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"lou@sask.usask.ca" "Jason" 10-APR-1997 22:52:16.56 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" CC: IN%"LOU@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: animals On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Jon Watts wrote: > I want to discuss domestic animal behaviour and related issues. > > Anyone know of a suitable list? The similarity of the human behaviour to the animal behaviour might be a topic that will help us understand more about both animal and people. It may take some prouds off the human beings that was obtained during the 'civilization' process, and make them feel closer to the other species. Zhensheng Lou From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 11-APR-1997 01:41:07.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: The Tethering of Species The Proceedings of the C.A.B.T.S.G./E.S.V.C.E. International Veterinary Behaviour Meeting are published by UFAW ISBN0900767 97 9 I think this is a very good record of what was very good two day meeting. A good buy ..as they say. On page 237 there is a brief communication entitled Close Tethering for Bonding, Houstraining, Quieting, and Correcting Dogs. The author is Rolan Tripp, 15340 Pastrana Drive, La Mirada, california USA 90638. I mention this because I would like some opinions from the variety of 'species' experts on this list on the most effective way of Restraining individual species. This may strike you as blindingly obvious but there seems to be a particular method of restraint which successful for a given species. I think it is matter worthy of more than cursory analysis. Elephants, draught oxen, horses, pigs, dogs, hawks (plese fill in gaps) have all been successfully 'tethered' as a part of the domestication process. Tethered in a way that produces a state which although we may call it resignation; acquiescence; acceptance; is really a way of inducing 'learned helplessness' . A fairly rapid way of inducing it..a method that produces the least protracted struggling. The method of brreaking oxen to the plough described by the Romans (vide Columella De Re Rustica) involved lashing the ox to a beam by the horns until it gave up struggling. As I unserstand it the Yoke became a clear signal of 'helplessness'. Since it is followed by predicable periods of 'outspanning! and freedom to graze, ruminate etc. the ox aquiesces to a life of disciplined labour and signalled leisure. (Don't we all!) The dog does indeed seem to respond to tethering rather better than caging. it is possible to condition the dog to accept 'deferred gratification' if it is given an unequivocally clear signal of 'time out' and an equally clear signal of 'release' the process is obviously one of Pavlovian conditioning. The process of enduring the 'helplessess' is presumably related to the coping mechanisms for isolation and any similar form of distress. If the training is constructed with short periods followed by rewards the dog is rapidly inducted into calm acceptance. The semiology is CRUCIAL. There must be an evoking stimulus (I prefer |Isaac Marks use friendly terminology. (Fears, Phobias and Rituals OUP 1987 p 253-54.). OK. Some people will will fly straight up into the trees of moral outrage and clatter like guinea fowl. But if you are adressing, for example, a huge Wolf hound cross that has trashed the house for 9 months, taking cupboards off the walls at human head height, this is the only method that is likely to succeed. So how do we 'break' oxen to the plough these days? Is there a 'Moonty Roberts' who has studied the natural Gnu and does it with shoulder shrugs? What works with raptors? Why are bulls holdable by the nose? Is the hidleg of the elephant the only option or is it singularly effective in that species? Robin *********************************************************************** Robin E. Walker, B.Vet.Med, M.R.C.V.S. 78, Bromyard Rd. Worcester. WR2 5DA Tel. (0)1905 421296 Fax. 1905 422287 'A great cause of the night is lack of the sun' Wm. Shakespear From: IN%"pherosynthese@wanadoo.fr" 11-APR-1997 03:33:57.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: re-french ethology An unwanted behaviour of my computer prevented me from reading your (direct) replies to my remark entitled 'french ethology'. Could you please send them again to me ? Yann Tessier From: IN%"SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk" "Nigel Goodwin" 11-APR-1997 05:20:06.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: veggie dogs/cats > i am seeking information about vegetarianism for dogs: the nutritional > quality of commercial food (e.g. "happy dog") and how to make it taste > better (gravies), making your own veggie dog food, and ideas for food > treats for training? references for books and papers on this matter > would also be most appreciated. cheers! This doesn't directly answer the question, but I do recall a televised experiment someone carried out a few years ago comparing cats' preference for meat- or vegetable-based pet food. A large bowl of each was placed on the floor in front of six cats, and all the cats went straight for the meat, completely ignoring the veggie option. I think the conclusion is pretty obvious! From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 11-APR-1997 06:15:25.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: the limper and the gobbler In a message dated 97-04-10 10:12:37 EDT, you write: >>I think I remember reading a desription of an ape in captivity (I don't >>remember the species or who the observer was) who was observed to >>discover the location of some hidden food, and to avoid the cache until >>other apes were otherwise occupied, whereupon he availed himself of the >>hidden goodies unmolested. This was presented as an example of >>"deception." What do you all think? >> I think it's food refusal in the presence of someone who would, take the food away from you if he were present. The finder of the food has learned that he can only enjoy it for himself if nobody else wants it. So he approaches it only when the others are engaged in some other activity. I don't see this a deception. I can offer an example that approaches deception, even though I don't think it is. I have a little dog who will steal food if I leave it within her reach. If she finds the dogs' water bowl empty, she licks it, growls at it, and rattles her tags against the sides of the bowl. This is my cue to get up and fill the water bowl. She has learned that this behavior will make me do this. AND, through my own carelessness, she has learned that I sometimes leave food within reach when she gives me the cue to fill the water bowl. She has now learned to give the water-bowl cue whenever I'm eating, even when the water bowl is full of water. While I try to remember to put anything I'm eating out of reach before checking the water bowl, I forget just often enough to offer a wonderful random reinforcement schedule. Is this conscious deception? I don't think so. I think it's just a combination of reinforcements that has worked for her. Cheers, Margie From: IN%"D.Goodwin@soton.ac.uk" "debbie goodwin" 11-APR-1997 07:17:51.27 To: IN%"SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk" "Nigel Goodwin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: veggie dogs/cats On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:18:52 +0000 (GMT0BST) Nigel Goodwin wrote: > This doesn't directly answer the question, but I do recall a > televised experiment someone carried out a few years ago comparing > cats' preference for meat- or vegetable-based pet food. A large bowl > of each was placed on the floor in front of six cats, and all the cats > went straight for the meat, completely ignoring the veggie option. > > I think the conclusion is pretty obvious! Well that's hardly suprising really. Cats are obligate carnivores, highly specialised meat eaters, with adaptations in their teeth, guts and physiology which mean that they must consume animal derived foodstuffs. See "Food selection by the domestic cat, an obligate carnivore" Bradshaw, Goodwin, Legrand-Defretin and Nott. (1996) Comp Biochem Physiol. 114a (3) 205-209 The dog, on the other hand is much more of a generalist, able to supplement a meat diet with fruits, berries, vegetables, etc. Cheers Debbie Goodwin (there seem to be lots of Goodwins about today!) D.Goodwin@soton.ac.uk From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 11-APR-1997 07:22:57.77 To: IN%"ash@iinet.net.au", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: how to leave group? -REPONSE you send a message saying unsubscribe applied-ethology your email address to applied-ethology-request@sask.usask.ca >>> 10/04/ 22h51 >>> I too REALLY need to know how to do this....I'm sorry! I have attempted to it several times and have been unable to successfully. Please forward me any information....Thank you!!! On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Ashley Read wrote: > I know these messages are annoying so my appologies, but how do I > unsubscribe to this group? From: IN%"H.J.Warburton@bristol.ac.uk" 11-APR-1997 07:25:35.91 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: veggie carnivores >>This doesn't directly answer the question, but I do recall a >>televised experiment someone carried out a few years ago comparing >>cats' preference for meat- or vegetable-based pet food. A large bowl >>of each was placed on the floor in front of six cats, and all the cats >>went straight for the meat, completely ignoring the veggie option. >>I think the conclusion is pretty obvious! What can you conclude from that? What about the previous experience of the cats? The way you have explained it, this experiment gives us relatively little information. Why do people want to give dogs/cats veggie food? Is it meant as a special diet for animals who cannot eat meat for health reasons? Or is it an owner's whim? If it is, they should think carefully about the ethics of keeping a carnivore at all. yours sincerely Harriet Warburton Bristol. From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 11-APR-1997 07:26:32.38 To: IN%"ash@iinet.net.au", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: how to leave group? -REPONSE you send a message saying unsubscribe applied-ethology your email address to applied-ethology-request@sask.usask.ca >>> 10/04/ 22h51 >>> I too REALLY need to know how to do this....I'm sorry! I have attempted to it several times and have been unable to successfully. Please forward me any information....Thank you!!! On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Ashley Read wrote: > I know these messages are annoying so my appologies, but how do I > unsubscribe to this group? From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 11-APR-1997 08:18:24.01 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: animals -reply and meanderings Jon Watts asks >>> 10/04/ 19h04 >>> I want to discuss domestic animal behaviour and related issues. Anyone know of a suitable list? Jon;-)>>> If I recall correctly there used to be a list called applied-ethology, which had some useful discussion about what is welfare, how you measure stress etc. There were occassional "unsubscribe" messages, and personal attacks, but they were in the minority. There were only about 200 people on the list, if I remember, as opposed to the 600 or so on this list. Maybe 600 people is too many. Maybe we should think about what we want from this list. Should we (can we?) restrict entrance only to approved people? There was also some discussion about whether messages should be "moderated" i.e. read by someone who decides whether or not to send them to the list. Some people called this censorship, but there are lists like this and they seem to work well. I have seen several messages sent to Joe Stookey recently suggesting, with various degrees of heat, that this list should be moderated. Maybe it should be. It is not clear if we have the resources. Who could we trust to do it? I would volunteer, providing I can ban all messages about dogs, cats, horses, and messages in swahili etc. Who would vote for me? A lot of people seem to be complaining recently, but I am not sure that things are so bad that we need do something drastic. I have seen much worse things happening on other lists. Some simple steps can be taken i.e. NEVER publically criticize a message sent to the net: this is guaranteed to provoke instant heated, predictable (and boring) reaction. Take your time: messages don't need to be sent instantly. 24 hours later, maybe it wont seem necessary. One worry is that people will start leaving just because they can't handle the crap. This net is useful for conducting ISAE business and saves us some money on postage (the ISAE contributes financially to its upkeep) so it is a worry if too many people leave. Joes response to criticism is that we get so much crap coming up because people who have something interesting to say don't say it. So other stuff rushes in to fill the vacuum. But then people with interesting things to say are often too busy to spend a lot of time sending email messages. Maybe email discussion groups don't work. Jeff Rushen rushenj@em.agr.ca From: IN%"arowan@OPAL.TUFTS.EDU" 11-APR-1997 09:16:55.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: working lists I find the applied ethology list much more cordial and pertinent (and just about right in terms of amount of activity) than several other lists I have been on. It seems to me to be working well although those who use email packages that either do not provide subject of message titles or allow them to delete messages without scrolling through everything might have reason to complain. The way email communication packages are developing, I assume nearly everyone will soon be able to delete anything that continues a discussion that is not of interest to them without wasting time on it. I certainly delete lots of messages unread (sorry about that!). I have been tempted to respond to several items but already spend too much time on email while my snailmail builds up into ever higher piles on my desk. Andrew Rowan Andrew N Rowan Director Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy School of Veterinary Medicine 200 Westboro Rd N. Grafton, MA 01536 Phone: (508) 839 7991; Fax: (508) 839 2953 Email: arowan@opal.tufts.edu From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 11-APR-1997 11:46:44.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Tethering-MAX The Destroyer Dear All ( or those interested in psychology applied to a dog with a problem related to its ethology..if you are not..well ..off with your 'prouds' say I) I have been gently chided for being a urban tetherist! I am not I am not! Tethering is a tool along with hooding and hobbling etc. Here is the exemplar in the Dog. MAX The destroyer. I don't recommend just tethering dogs. What I do do is use a tether teach the dog the significance of a signal. You will recall the Karen Pryor story about the barking dog and the towel on the door. Remember the dog got to work out that barking did not get it back into the house..it was the disappearence of the towel from the back door that signalled 'time to come in'. A good yarn!..as we say. It has the slight drawback that dogs can enjoy barking in the sme way as chewing. It is a pleaurable activity. (After all we sing do we not?). I am just succeeding with a dog that has barked non-stop day and night, whilst walking, socializing, eating and even occasionally whilst sleeping for...wait for it......two years!!!!! It has wrecked its lungs! I am wating for some video of the greatly improved dog and then I am going to work up a computer based module with text, stills, diagrams and video short clips.. The point is the dog was 'addicted' to the barking ...which is what I think stereotypies are about. So..signalled time out for a barking problem may not be the best way. But signalling of enforced time out for something the dog is unable to do...can be a winner. Max. Max is the wolfhound cross that I spoke of. He was a rescued dog. He was hysterically bonded to the new owners and 'jealous' in that if they touched or sat together he would rush up and scream at them. He spent 9 months tearing down their house. Mostly the kitchen,,taking the wall cupboards down. the full height refrigerator door off its hinges (twice) etc. etc. He had loads of advice from the rescue Society. You know the stuff...cool the bond, go out when the dog is not looking. Re-enter the house through the sewer stealthily..(I jest) Give lots of plastic bottles to play with..yadder.. yadder.. yadder.. The point is you cannot cool a bond with a dog that can rush up and touch you! That is a score! A goal! Max was big enough to grab up a family member and carry them into his basket if he wished. So..I came on the scene..with these wonderful people..almost anyone else (as an owner) would have sent the dog back or had it killed. Enmotional toughening. I decided that we had to teach Max to exist without contact with the owners and their one son (11 yrs) for periods of clearly signalled time. They took a two week vacation at home. We cleared a corner of the kitchen covered an area with marine grade water proof scratch resistant plyboard. A stout wall bolt and strong chain and a wide strong collar. A flag was chosen..a white plastic one. Max was then placed on the lead after the flag was raised on the door jamb on a hook. The family then busied themselves about the room, in and out the door for a few minutes. They did not look at Max no matter what he did. Then they went over to the flag took it down put it away and then and ONLY then turned and 'rediscovered' Max. At the end of the first week they made their first mistake in discovering Max but leaving the flag up instead of removing it. He looked at them walked over to the door reached up and took down the bag! I threatened to shoot them if they did it again. With a month they were able to leave Max in the kitchen (for the 3 hour periods that were the maximum they were all as a family likely to be out) not on the tether. From then to this day Max is found sitting by (not on) the chain when they return home. He has the run of the house if he wishes. He waits there, however, until they until they say hullo before he greets them. The flag was dispensed with in August 1995. The treatment began in February 95. They took it very slowly. Learning to cope with isolation and deferred gratification after being 'spoilt' is tough. But the suffering intensifies the reward and the regimen itself becomes addictive. Old school boys will still skirt the Head's lawn. Nuns will walk close to corridor walls long after leaving the Order. Old soldiers will be very distressed if you hide their shoe polish. Robin From: IN%"lynnfrances@msn.com" "lynn crook" 11-APR-1997 15:12:17.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: odd dog?? I went to see a G.S.D. today, it has several problems, all of them solveable with time and patience, which I believe the owners have.----------However it was displaying an odd behavior (at least I haven't seen anything like it before!!) In order to try to break the dog of the habit of hanging on to its lead whilst they struggled to walk it,they had put a muzzle on it a few times. It became very distressed by this and they stopped about a month ago. When the dog is walked now, if it starts to pull,the owner stops, the dog goes round in circles with its lead in its mouth tugging at it, and then acts as if it is trying to rid itself of the muzzle--------it doesn't just paw at its face, it is frantic, it's mouth is wide open and his paws are rigid across it's nose-----it could almost be having a fit. Could this happen because the dog was so traumatised when it had the muzzle on? It is a "highly strung" type of animal and it is also quick to learn. Thanks, Lynn From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 11-APR-1997 15:33:41.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" Subj: North American ISAE abstracts The due date is fast approaching (next friday, April 18th) for abstracts intended for presentation at the North American ISAE meeting in Lennoxville, Quebec on June 7th, 1997. Remember this meeting is in conjunction with the Farm Animal Welfare Conference: New Technologies, Research and World Trade in Canada, plus the expert committee meeting on Farm Animal Welfare and Behaviour. Abstracts for oral or poster presentations at the ISAE meeting can be submitted by e-mail, surface mail or FAX directly to me at: Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada Tel: (306) 966-7154 FAX: (306) 966-7159 e-mail: joseph.stooke@sask.usask.ca Abstracts should be limited to one page in length and must include Title, Author(s) and Affiliation. Scientific abstracts should contain clearly stated objectives, experimental methods, condensed results and a clearly stated conclusion. Abstracts dealing with issues, concepts or theories should contain the objective of the paper or the main message to be delivered. Supportive information should be given as an indication of the importance or scope of the topic. Possible implications or recommendations should be included. Please indicate on the top of the page your preference for oral or poster presentation. Your regional ISAE secretary will have more details of the meetings and registration material. Dr. Janice Swanson is the US secretary (jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu) and Dr. Leah Braithwaite is the Canadian secretary (leah.braithwaite@space.gc.ca). I am looking forward to your participation. Joe From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 11-APR-1997 16:47:39.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: animals -reply and meanderings In a message dated 97-04-11 12:33:25 EDT, you write: >I want to discuss domestic animal behaviour and related issues. > >Anyone know of a suitable list? This seems like a pretty good one. What aspects of domestic animal behavior would you like to discuss? Cheers, Margie From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 11-APR-1997 17:13:27.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: veggie dogs/cats In a message dated 97-04-11 09:59:29 EDT, you write: >The dog, on the other hand is much more of a generalist, able to supplement a > >meat diet with fruits, berries, vegetables, etc. > > "Generalist" is an elegant and polite way to describe an animal who regards the droppings of other animals as great delicacies. (Dogs enjoy cat food both before and after the cat has eaten it.) Noneless, the short intestine of the dog is better adapted for meat protein than plant protein. Dr. David Kronfeld, who wrote an excellent series of nutritional articles for the AKC Gazette many years ago wrote that "Nobody ever saw a dog chase a corn field." Cheers, Margie From: IN%"arkabc@arkanimals.com" 11-APR-1997 19:57:52.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Ark Animal Tracks has moved, seeks contributors..... ARK ANIMAL TRACKS, The electronic magazine dedicated to captive wildife behavior, training, and conservation related issues, has moved to a new domain. The new address and email are: http://www.arkanimals.com arkabc@arkanimals.com In addition to the regular series on "Unusual Animal Careers," New articles appear regularly. Contributions are welcomed, however, no unsolicited work is accepted. Please query the editor first at arkabc@arkanimals.com. Average article word count is 1500 words. Diana Guerrero From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 13-APR-1997 01:56:57.30 To: IN%"lynnfrances@msn.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: odd dog?? >I went to see a G.S.D. today, it has several problems, all of them solveable >with time and patience, which I believe the owners have.----------However it >was displaying an odd behavior (at least I haven't seen anything like it >before!!) In order to try to break the dog of the habit of hanging on to its >lead whilst they struggled to walk it,they had put a muzzle on it a few times. >It became very distressed by this and they stopped about a month ago. When the >dog is walked now, if it starts to pull,the owner stops, the dog goes round in >circles with its lead in its mouth tugging at it, and then acts as if it is >trying to rid itself of the muzzle--------it doesn't just paw at its face, it >is frantic, it's mouth is wide open and his paws are rigid across it's >nose-----it could almost be having a fit. Could this happen because the dog >was so traumatised when it had the muzzle on? It is a "highly strung" type of >animal and it is also quick to learn. >Thanks, Lynn > Interesting...toying with the proposition that it is possible to traumatize the psyche of a dog leads me to consider the notion that a form of 'post traumatic stress disorder' can afflict an animal. Being a dog this is likely to be expressed by canine species typical somatic and visceral responses. after all the human experience of PTSD is not just a disagreable memory surfacing; it is the full blown autonomic/emotional rerun of the traumatizing event. To throw a little light towards (if not on) the matter I can offer a case of a similar German Shepherd Dog in training for police work with a very 'stress inducing handler' The dog had a violent bout of diarrhoea and at the same time developed anal furunculosis. I began to exhibit very frequent defaecation postures (making as if to pass a stool but not straining strenously). The behaviour was such as would bear the description of a stereotypy. the dog was calm, oblivious to its surroundings and the presence of humans and could not be distracted or deterred from the routine, which it also performed whilst alone. I performed successful surgery on the furunculosis which was not very extensive. The diarrhoea had been swiftly controlled at the outset. the behaviour continued unabated. I referred the dog to Briston University Veterinary school where a very full investigation of the dog's rectum, anus and the operation site by radiography and endoscopy etc etc.was conducted. Nothing was found nor was there revealed any sensitivity to touch or discomfort detected at any of numerous examinations and observations of this dog. The constant stooping to stool went on unabated for several weeks. Medications with analgesics, tricyclics (amytriptiline), phenobarbitone, beta-blockers were tried and had no influence that could be detected. (this was 1992). The dog was deemed unserviceable by the constabulary and they could not contemplate rehoming, so they requested its euthanazia.which I performed. It is my retrospective opinion that this was a stereotypic disorder which had its genesis in the period of acuted discomfort of diarrhoea and anal furunculosis. There was absolutely no sign of pain or a response appropriate to a focus of pain. Just as your dog has absolutely no muzzle on but persists in trying to remove it with behaviour more appropriate to fearful distress than discomfort. Robin Remove the triggers or cues that elicit this behavior. Try a harness with different type of lead ( a different feel in the mouth). work on stopping the mouthing by teaching the dog that touching the lead terminates the walk, closes doors, leads to 'time out'. try to desensitize the dog to the memory of the muzzle by the wearing of a soft headcollar indoors or at feeding times. Remember the addictive nature of this type of behaviour and the resistance to extinction of the powerful evoking stimuli. Train the owners to expect a long period of patient effort. From: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" 13-APR-1997 13:19:49.78 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"lynnfrances@msn.com" "lynn crook" Subj: RE: odd dog?? Maybe a ritual. lynn crook wrote: > I went to see a G.S.D. today, ... However it > was displaying an odd behavior (at least I haven't seen anything like it > before!!) In order to try to break the dog of the habit of hanging on to its > lead whilst they struggled to walk it,they had put a muzzle on it a few times. > It became very distressed by this and they stopped about a month ago. When the > dog is walked now, if it starts to pull,the owner stops, the dog goes round in > circles with its lead in its mouth tugging at it, and then acts as if it is > trying to rid itself of the muzzle--------it doesn't just paw at its face, it > is frantic, it's mouth is wide open and his paws are rigid across it's > nose-----it could almost be having a fit. Could this happen because the dog > was so traumatised when it had the muzzle on? It is a "highly strung" type of > animal and it is also quick to learn. > Thanks, Lynn To help you we have to know the whole behavioral sequence. As you know communication is a reciprocal thing. So both the dog and the owner are involved. If the reaction of the owner is to give the dog attention (I think this may be the case), think of a RITUAL. A ritual is a behavioral sequence that has been modified to become a communication sequence. It has the whole sequence of a behavior: appetitive (search for attention), consumatory (with high intensity, repetitive patters that may lead to stereotypic behavior) and satiety (quieting down). How do you change a ritual? Extinction! Just do not reward it. The ritual will increase for a few days then disappear. Try to change rituals. I am not saying that this odd behavior is a ritual. I propose that as a possibility. Maybe this dog is showing something else, I don't know. Another question is: why is this dog struggling on the leash? Is this dog anxious? Is this dog kind of challenging its owners? Dr Joel Dehasse (dvm) - Brussels - jdehasse@arcadis.be http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/ From: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 14-APR-1997 02:22:33.72 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: odd dog?? Dear Robin > The dog had a violent bout of diarrhoea and at the same time > developed anal furunculosis. I began to exhibit very frequent > defaecation postures (making as if to pass a stool but not > straining strenously). How did your family and neighbours respond to this? Mike From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 14-APR-1997 06:32:39.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: North American ISAE abstracts -REPONSE Joe, has the ISAE information been sent out yet? I haven't received it. Jeff >>> 11/04/ 17h33 >>> The due date is fast approaching (next friday, April 18th) for abstracts intended for presentation at the North American ISAE meeting in Lennoxville, Quebec on June 7th, 1997. Remember this meeting is in conjunction with the Farm Animal Welfare Conference: New Technologies, Research and World Trade in Canada, plus the expert committee meeting on Farm Animal Welfare and Behaviour. Abstracts for oral or poster presentations at the ISAE meeting can be submitted by e-mail, surface mail or FAX directly to me at: Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada Tel: (306) 966-7154 FAX: (306) 966-7159 e-mail: joseph.stooke@sask.usask.ca Abstracts should be limited to one page in length and must include Title, Author(s) and Affiliation. Scientific abstracts should contain clearly stated objectives, experimental methods, condensed results and a clearly stated conclusion. Abstracts dealing with issues, concepts or theories should contain the objective of the paper or the main message to be delivered. Supportive information should be given as an indication of the importance or scope of the topic. Possible implications or recommendations should be included. Please indicate on the top of the page your preference for oral or poster presentation. Your regional ISAE secretary will have more details of the meetings and registration material. Dr. Janice Swanson is the US secretary (jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu) and Dr. Leah Braithwaite is the Canadian secretary (leah.braithwaite@space.gc.ca). I am looking forward to your participation. Joe From: IN%"bruno.graf@inw.agrl.ethz.ch" "Bruno Graf" 14-APR-1997 07:07:40.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Int. Congress on Appl. Ethol. in Freiburg/Germany GERMAN VETERINARY SOCIETY - SECTION OF APPLIED ETHOLOGY, 29th INTERNATIONAL CONGRESS ON APPLIED ETHOLOGY 1997, FREIBURG/GERMANY, 4 - 6 DECEMBER 1997. The programme of the 1997 meeting will include sessions on the following topics: 1) EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN and STATISTICAL ANALYSIS in APPLIED ETHOLOGY RESEARCH (contributions should focus on the experimental design and the statistical procedures chosen in a given behavioural study). 2) PREFERENCE TESTS - MEASURING MOTIVATION (contributions should be based on a relevant study and address one of the following questions: What kind of information may be gained by preference tests in farm and companion animals? How can motivation be measured and evaluated?) 3) FREE PAPERS (preferred are studies on behaviour and housing of farm and companion animals, transport and slaughter, prenatal and perinatal effects on behaviour, environmental enrichment, behaviour and genetics, or housing/handling of wild and semi-feral domesticated animals). Topics 1 and 2 will be introduced by an invited key lecture. "Free papers" may be arranged to further topics by the congress committee depending on the abstracts submitted. There will be a brief meeting of the ISAE-Regional-Group West Central Europe on December 4th. CALL FOR PAPERS: Abstracts in German or English must include topic, title, author(s) and affiliation, and should contain sufficient information on objectives, methods, sample size, results, conclusions and implications of the study. DEADLINE for the submission of abstracts for oral presentations (15 min presentation and 15 min discussion, posters are not accepted) is 30 JUNE 1997. Abstracts (one page, no figures/tables/references) should be sent in 4 copies to: Prof. Dr. K. Zeeb Deutsche Vet.-Med. Gesellschaft Am Moosweiher 2 D- 79108 Freiburg Germany The congress committee (D. Buchenauer/Hannover, B. Graf/Zuerich, H.H. Sambraus/Weihenstephan, K. Zeeb/Freiburg) will select approx. 25 contributions based on the information provided in the abstracts. Studies that have already been published will not be considered. Authors will be informed about acceptance or rejection of their offers in September 1997, along with a provisional programme and information about registration. The congress fee will be approx. DM 100. Following the congress, all accepted contributions will be published (approx. 10 printed pages for each paper, in German or English) in a conference report by KTBL/DVG, Darmstadt, Germany. For further information please contact Prof. Dr. K. Zeeb (Phone:++49-761-43643, FAX:++49-761-4760728). Bruno Graf From: IN%"arion@dialatlanta.com" 14-APR-1997 07:27:29.78 To: IN%"lynnfrances@msn.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: [Fwd: Re: odd dog??] Message-ID: <3351545D.34DE@dialatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:47:09 -0400 From: Chris Redenbach Reply-To: arion@dialatlanta.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: robin@coape.win-uk.net Subject: Re: odd dog?? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit lynn crook wrote: > > I went to see a G.S.D. today, it has several problems, all of them solveable > with time and patience, which I believe the owners have.----------However it > was displaying an odd behavior (at least I haven't seen anything like it > before!!) In order to try to break the dog of the habit of hanging on to its > lead whilst they struggled to walk it,they had put a muzzle on it a few times. > It became very distressed by this and they stopped about a month ago. When the > dog is walked now, if it starts to pull,the owner stops, the dog goes round in > circles with its lead in its mouth tugging at it, and then acts as if it is > trying to rid itself of the muzzle--------it doesn't just paw at its face, it > is frantic, it's mouth is wide open and his paws are rigid across it's > nose-----it could almost be having a fit. Could this happen because the dog > was so traumatised when it had the muzzle on? It is a "highly strung" type of > animal and it is also quick to learn. > Thanks, Lynn Hi Lynn, I've spent quite a bit of time here as a kind of training exercise for myself. But you have given so few details about this dog that the one I have ended advising you about is an imaginary one. I hope that it is related to the real one who are working with. Anyway I had fun doing this...practice writing and all. If you think any of the ideas mesh with your style fo work and you want to discuss some options, feel welcome to email me. I have seen many many dogs who take the leash in their mouth to walk the owners. I have also seen many dogs who get frantic when restrained and thwarted. This reminds me of the kind of overreaction that I have seen many dogs do in different ways as a response to training that involves alot of restraint and overloaded emotional reactions on the part of the owner. Some will dive and roll over and over, others will rear up and freeze with feet over the leash, others will alternate between diving and freezing. Some dogs just seem to need a very careful introduction to leash work and other forms of restraint in order not to have these sorts of hysterical reactions that are much easier to reinforce inadvertently than not to reinforce and figure out an alternative approach to control. It appears to be a kind of introverted social control concern combined with an extreme sensitivity to and fear of restraint that escalates into a sort of phobia. I would guess that this dog hates physical restraint and has learned some sequence of behavioral interaction with the owner which is a control drama that at some point cues the dog to go into this behavior. Initially, since the dog chose this particular behavior of pulling on the leash, i would guess that the dog wants to control the behavior of the owners, dislikes restraint on the neck, and likes to play tug and probably retrieve games. Tugging on the leash probably initially was a low level protest behavior and simultaneous attempt to change the subject to a playful way to control. The top of the muzzle is a spot behaviorally significant to the dog...see muzzle bites as disciplinary and control demonstrations by higher ranking individuals. Having coached competitors in a sport requiring an exercise of heel off leash with a muzzle on, I am familiar with many of the mistakes that trainers make which create major muzzle resistance. A big problem with this is that the owners almost always end up changing the subject matter of the training session from heeling to fighting over the muzzle. That gives the dog control of the direction of the session so the subject matter becomes resistance with an increase in emotional content and no obvious winner. If they would just use a more progressive and food rewarded system of training the dog to wear the muzzle, they wouldn't have to retrain their mistakes so much. The dog has chosen an issue to make the owners deal with...I'm not saying intentionally and with forethought...it no doubt just happened that this superb drama has caused the owners to allow the dog to frame the subject matter to be dealt with. Whether the dog gets mentally weird as a result of this behavior is a byproduct of what brought it to be. . You and the owners must reframe this situation so that you can make the dog deal with issues of your choice instead of its choice. If the dog likes to walk with something in its mouth to pull on, then this can be used as a reward later. In the interim I would recommend that they use a long line, so that they can give slack each time there is pulling, and that will give them time to do something to interrupt the dog's thought pattern. The other reason that a long line may help is that it will allow dog and ownre not to be inside each other's personal space. Anyway, when the dog pulls, the owner gives slack, and then distracts. In such instances i have done quite strange things like blow a loud whistle, scream and run, sit on ground and have temper tantrum...wild silly things that are utterly unexpected by the dog. That of course couldn't go on more than a couple of days while the conditioning is taking place for the other steps. But this starts to interrupt that sequence of behaviors leading to the cue to go into this bizarre behavior. you may have to reward the alternative behavior that the dog chooses for awhile. For the foundation conditioning: I would try to work indoors using a food lure to teach the dog to walk at heel position with no leash and then with the leash dragging on the ground, and then with the leash held in the right hand out of sight of the dog, but without using the leash or applying even the slightest tension which would make the dog even lean in the opposite direction preparing for the pulling. All it has to do at first is walk two steps and sit for reward....not passing the owners leg with its chest (that part is important). The food can be really yummy. Teach dog to sit at the side for food (classical conditioning with lure), then teach heel command and all the dog has to do is virtually take two steps with the food literally in its face, held in left hand by owner, as owner stops the food is slightly raised, thus causing the dog's nose to raise and he sits, without command to sit, the praise accompanying the food is Good heel. The number of steps between sits can be gradually increased. Any turns must be to the left so as to define the dog's space. The goal of this part of the training is to clearly teach the dog the task of heeling with an automatic sit and teach the dog that this can be a low stress, no tension activity, and to weaken the symbolic meaning of the appearance of the leash (by taking away its role as a major player in the scenario and replacing the oral orientation with food). At the same time, the positioning of the dog and the left turns start to stealthily teach the dog not to lead, but to follow. The food held in the left hand fo the owner conditions the owner not to pull back on the lead. At the same time teach the dog a sit from motion command...make it a game with food as a reward...again..indoors. So the dog sits, reward, good sit, release "free", dog jumps around, get attention with food, "sit", reward good sit, free and make the length of the sit whatever it takes for the dog to think about the intentionality of the sit for food. Gradually make the sit longer prior to the release, but vary the time so that you are always in control of the rythymn of the game. The goal is that the dog sits quickly and happily and expects to open its mouth for a reward. Next, the dog must be taught ideally to play a short retrieve followed by a short tug o war with a rope bone toy or a length of heavy thick rope. Important in this is that the owner pull long enough to really have participated in the game, and then the dog is taught to sit and give on command, using either food or another toy to cause the release of the toy. The dog will already be accustoemd to a sudden sit for a treat and opening the mouth (although one can't count on the mouth opening during a tug game). It is of extreme importance that the owner not continue to resist the dog's continued pulls on the toy by pulling back. You may have to have another person help in the beginning by distracting the dog with an offering of a major treat for the sit, give command while the owner may have to reach under the dog's chin and grasp the collar with palm facing upward, then exert a calm pull in the direction up and forward into the owner's belly so to speak. Everything the owner does after calling an end to the tug must be very calm (not with indecisiveness, but with a complete absence of excitement or frustration.) Now once all this has been accomplished, you can add the tug game as a reward for sitting at heel while walking and then control the game. Then the owner will be able to reward not pulling and not biting the leash with a game of tug that satisfies the dog's urge to dispute control in a harmless way and additionally reinforces proper behaviro on the leash. Dealing directly with the targeted problem is probably a bottomless pit of complications. Chris Redenbach Alliance Dog Training School Lawrenceville, GA, USA From: IN%"rdecter@msn.com" "Renee Decter" 14-APR-1997 18:05:17.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Humor in Domestic Dogs on the Internet Hi folks, Well, my paper "Humor in Domestic Dogs" is on the Internet, which is probably the easiest way for all of you to gain access to it, if you already haven't through my postings to the group. (It's easily copied to your word processing program ... it was created in WordPerfect (Corel) 7, in Windows 95. However, I copied it to two different word processing programs (in Windows95), and it transferred over quite well.) The web site address is: http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/rdecter.htm Mark Plonsky was kind enough to add it to his site (complete with end notes). Also, check out his home page (just leave off the dog/rdecter.htm). That will get you into any of his four sites. They're really quite informative and well-done. Thanks to all of you, again, for your patience and in "bear"ing with me on getting this project to you, and thanks for all your mail and comments. Many of you have been so frustrated in getting a readable form of it, as have I, that you may have lost your "sense of humor." I hope not. Just remember the paper was done for a sociology seminar, "The Sociology of Humor" and was done with a serious, and yet light-heartened, point of view. Regards to all of you, Renee Decter P.S. If I have mis-quoted anyone's anecdotes/comments to me when I wrote the paper, I send my apologies. From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" 15-APR-1997 06:47:49.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: E-mail Karen Overall Please can someone provide an e-mail address for K.L.Overall, University of Pennsylvania, USA. Thank you. From: IN%"pkabai@ns.univet.hu" "Kabai Peter" 15-APR-1997 07:37:58.54 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ultrasound cat repellent? Dear Ethologists, I would like to learn about harmless methods to repell domestic cats by sound, ultrasound. Thanks, Peter Kabai From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@nlh10.nlh.no" "Bjarne O. Braastad" 15-APR-1997 08:08:17.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: anim.reply ..... future of the list At 10:27 11.04.1997 -0400, Jeff Rushen wrote this about the possibility of having this list moderated: ...... >There was also some discussion about whether messages should be >"moderated" i.e. read by someone who decides whether or not to send >them to the list. Some people called this censorship, but there are lists like >this and they seem to work well. I have seen several messages sent to >Joe Stookey recently suggesting, with various degrees of heat, that this >list should be moderated. Maybe it should be. It is not clear if we have the >resources. Who could we trust to do it? I would volunteer, providing I >can ban all messages about dogs, cats, horses, and messages in >swahili etc. Who would vote for me? ....... One possibility is to restrict list subscription to members of ISAE. Although the quality of contributions could not be guaranteed, it would tend to keep the discussion on matters of interest to ISAE members. It might also stimulate more scientists to join ISAE. Has anyone any idea of what fraction of list subscribers are also ISAE members? I would certainly not vote for Jeff as list moderator if he bans contributions on dogs and cats. Applied ethology also includes studies on pet behaviour and behaviour problems, and several issues are quite similar for pet and farm species (e.g. aggression, fear, stereotypies etc. and their causes). But I agree that this is not a list which should be open to any pet owner or dog breeder. Without some scientific background there is a great risk that these people would not be able to judge the quality of various contributions, resulting in a biased view of what are the facts in pet ethology. Bjarne Braastad Bjarne O. Braastad Dr.Philos., Associate Professor of Ethology Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 http://wwwnlh.nlh.no/Institutt/IHF/Presside/bobu.htm From: IN%"Anna.Olsson@sjv.se" "Anna Olsson" 15-APR-1997 09:47:09.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: animals -reply and meanderings -Svar >>> Jeff Rushen 1997-04-11 16.23 >>> Should we (can we?) restrict entrance only to approved people? No, certainly not! Also those not (yet) being experts on the subject should be allowed to read and learn. And ask and discuss, as long as it makes sense: see below. Joe Stookey recently suggesting, with various degrees of heat, that this list should be moderated. Maybe it should be. It is not clear if we have the resources. Who could we trust to do it? I would volunteer, providing I can ban all messages about dogs, cats, horses, and messages in swahili etc. Who would vote for me? Maybe a moderator should be of value, at least for limiting the subjects of the list. But a moderator has to be very very careful in his work! I think we ought to be happy that you volunteer, because I doubt if there will be more volunteers!! The task is diffucult. A lot of people seem to be complaining recently, but I am not sure that things are so bad that we need do something drastic. I have seen much worse things happening on other lists. Some simple steps can be taken i.e. NEVER publically criticize a message sent to the net: this is guaranteed to provoke instant heated, predictable (and boring) reaction. Take your time: messages don't need to be sent instantly. 24 hours later, maybe it wont seem necessary. I agree Joes response to criticism is that we get so much crap coming up because people who have something interesting to say don't say it. So other stuff rushes in to fill the vacuum. But then people with interesting things to say are often too busy to spend a lot of time sending email messages. Maybe email discussion groups don't work. I'm afraid there is some truth in this. But this discussion group worked excellently during 1995 (except for the incident of Robin Walker getting so engaged in sarcastic and witty writing that he seemed to forget the subject) and relatively OK last year. Also this year there has been some interesting discussions, although things have tilted too much towards dog training. And you yourself could be seen as a person who has something interesting to say and says it - why do the others keep quiet? What about if we all made an effort again - if we really want a list, that is. Anna Olsson animal housing & welfare - organic animal husbandry Swedish Board of Agriculture Division for Animal Production and Management S-551 82 Jonkoping Sweden e-mail Anna.Olsson@sjv.se tel +46-36-155000 fax +46-36-308182 "Industrialization has transformed an agriculture created for the purpose of converting solar energy into human-useful form, into an agriculture that uses more nonrenewable energy from fossils than it captures as solar energy from the sun. But what is perhaps more important is that these industrial systems degrade their human resource base. Large specialized factory farms transform independent decision makers into people who know how to follow instructions or directions but not necessarily know how to think or make decisions." John Ikerd University of Minnesota From: IN%"dmills@dmu.ac.uk" "dmills" 15-APR-1997 10:56:20.31 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Senior research fellows / lectureships with a primary research focus positions available. Continuing our development within the field of animal science, especially applied ethology and equine science, De Montfort University is now seeking to make a number of appointments at the above grade. Permanent and fixed term appointments are available in a wide variety of disciplines relevant to the University and School of Agriculture and Horticulture. Salaries are negotiable and dependent on experience but many posts will also be available to recent post - doctoral candidates. If you are interested in applying for a position within the agricultural and biological sciences, please contact The Personnel Department via the details below quoting Post Ref A1. We currently offer an undergraduate programme which involves a synthesis in applied ethology and comparative psychology with the potential to specialise in aspects of problem behaviour management or animal management design. We are looking to expand our research base and have a wide range of animal facilities for enthusiastic candidates. These include a small animal unit, two stable yards ( one dedicated to research purposes) indoor and outdoor pig uints, poultry, deer, game, dairy and a few sheep. We are also interested investigating a wide range of aspects relating to human animal interactions. One of the beauties of this place is that there is a lot of freedom for staff to expand freely within their chosen speciality. If you are interested in learning more at an informal level about the place( I have no say in these appointments which are determined by the Vice Chancellor) then feel free to email me on dmills@dmu.ac.uk. The closing date for applications is May 23 1997. Tel UK (0)116 2506168 or write to the Personnel Dept De Montfort University The Gateway Leicester LE1 9BH Please remember to quote the reference A1. De Montfort University is an equal opportunities employer