From: IN%"matchdog@wxs.nl" "Bianca Uittenbogaard" 16-APR-2000 05:40:43.30 To: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Aggression towards pups Hello Bill, You wrote: > I've had calls from breeders with this problem in the past. Many of the > bitches were on relatively high carbohydrate diets, which is how B.N. > Klosovski created problems experimentally in pre-whelped bitches. > Development of the Nervous System, and its Disturbance by Harmful > factors. > Macmillan, NY 1963 Interesting! Was the study from Klosovski meant to find out only what effect the diet of the bitch could have on the development of the pups? Or did this diet also influence the behaviour of the whelping bitches? And what do you think about my earlier posted question: Is it possible to train a dog to such a level that natural responses do not come naturally anymore? So far the interesting answers I have received point to several factors; hormonal and neuroendocrine influences pheromones diet: calcium-levels, vit. B deficiency, carbohydrates inexperience stress What I am still wondering about is the question about training. Is it possible to condition animals in such a way that they will no longer obey their natural instincts, or do you think that training has nothing to do with this? Bianca Bianca Uittenbogaard Matchdog@wxs.nl www.listen.to/click Success is a journey, not a destination > Bianca Uittenbogaard wrote: > > > > Hello Kathy and all, > > > > you wrote: > > >>There are potentially many reasons/causes and > > your theory of it being related to pressure training is certainly > > interesting, > > and not one I had considered. Would be an intersting area to study but how > > would > > we obtain meaningful data that might give some answers?. Is it more common > > after > > protracted labours or caesarean sections? Is it related to parity? or age? > > or > > breed?, dog "personality", environment or training?. I doubt it will be as > > simple as simply being related to oxytocin levels in isolation, though > > hormonal > > factors, pain and stress are likely to be important mediators.<< > > > > As I am a professional behaviour counsellor, people contact me in order to > > solve the problems they experience with their pets. Most of the time the > > troublesome behaviour is a natural behaviour that by it's frequency, > > intensity or duration poses a problem for the owner. I do see the need for > > study, but am going to rely on others to do their part in this, so that I > > can rely on their findings later on. My job is to solve the problems as good > > as I can. But this is an aside. What bothered me in this case was the fact > > that this quite original dog was not relying on it's natural instincts. The > > dog was very healthy, had an easy birth, and so far as I could see there was > > nothing physically wrong with her at all. Stress would certainly be a factor > > to repress the natural behaviour in my opinion, as well as a possible > > hormonal imbalance. But in this case the thing that got me wondering was the > > fact that this bitch was conditioned to respond to orders all the time. > > Could it be that because of that she would not rely on her instinct but wait > > for orders? Could it be that she panicked because her owner clearly did not > > know what to tell her and was in distress himself? The breed is high-strung, > > but normally very self-possessed. > > > > >>Likewise I suspect we do not know how these pups would go later in terms > > of > > developing problem behaviours. How would be double blind it to isolate the > > effects of post-birth maternal aggression from all other factors that might > > effect their subsequent behaviour?. What do others think?. As the aggression > > "resolved" by three weeks then perhaps it's effects will not have a long > > lasting > > influence - that would be my hypothesis. So much would depend on lots of > > other > > factors.<< > > > > It's the fact that it took three whole weeks that bothers me. I've been > > present at quite a few birthings from first time mothers. Some do appear to > > be upset, or clearly do not know how to go about things at first, but most > > of the time they settle to their motherhood in a couple of days. And this is > > really the first time that I witnessed a mother actually damaging healthy > > pups. When I visited the family later on, all pups were showing the need of > > having their mother around, the two male pups were constantly beleaguered by > > the others, so their penises could be used as a pacifier, while others > > twisted the bedding to suckle on that. The puppy with the damaged ear had to > > be stitched under anaesthetic. It almost died during that procedure. It > > needed five stitches in an ear as big as the nail of my index finger. When I > > visited on day two, mom - thanks to ignorance of the owners - had removed > > all stitches but one, so I taped the ear to the head as good as I could, the > > vet later checked the pup and approved of this. The puppy had trouble > > breathing and had no muscle tone, it would have died then, if I hadn't been > > around. I think these traumatic events must have some influence on the > > behaviour, sooner or later. > > > > >>Just a final comment about the head collar: she could certainly still have > > physically biten the pups with a gentle leader on: they are not muzzles. I > > think > > it was a good suggestion but from the point of view of calm, gentle control, > > not > > because it could stop her biting.<< > > > > The head halter was meant to provide gentle control, and give the bitch > > opportunity to wash her pups as well. As soon as she would start growling, > > the owner was instructed to get up and leave, taking the bitch away from the > > litter, without any negative comments. > > > > Thank you for your input. > > > > Bianca > > > > Bianca Uittenbogaard > > > > Matchdog@wxs.nl > > www.listen.to/click > > > > Success is a journey, not a destination From: IN%"celtoi@hotmail.com" "Wind Runner Chapman" 16-APR-2000 08:04:34.58 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Drooling cats Just a quick question. I lived in AZ. for a number of years. I had adopted a wonderful old tom cat I named Spleep. He had the habit of drooling if he was being petted. In addition to that, he would drool copious amounts if he were frightened. The other cats of my household began to drool also. I have one remaining cat from that time and she still drools. What is this all about? Semper Ubi Sububi. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler" 16-APR-2000 09:24:54.99 To: IN%"matchdog@wxs.nl" "Bianca Uittenbogaard" CC: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Aggression towards pups On Sun, 16 Apr 2000, Bianca Uittenbogaard wrote: > > What I am still wondering about is the question about training. Is it > possible to condition animals in such a way that they will no longer obey > their natural instincts, or do you think that training has nothing to do > with this? > > Bianca Trainers are often faced with the task of teaching a dog to respond differently than what instinct dictates. Take, for example, the having to teach a dog not to chase rabbits or deer. The instinct is to pursue the game on a hunt. The desire of the human owner is to either have a pet that does not chase period, or have a hunting dog who remains focused on a specific game. In either case we're asking the dog to not respond to a very strong stimulus to give chase. Your particular situation is admittedly different. I wonder, have all the attacks on the pups been in the presence of her trainer/owner? Does his presence make the dog more anxious? H.U.G. Your dog! Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) From: IN%"speedy@into.ch" 16-APR-2000 13:41:47.02 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Aggression towards pups Bianca Uittenbogaard wrote: ...So far the interesting answers I have received point to several factors; hormonal and neuroendocrine influences pheromones diet: calcium-levels, vit. B deficiency, carbohydrates inexperience stress What I am still wondering about is the question about training. Is it possible to condition animals in such a way that they will no longer obey their natural instincts, or do you think that training has nothing to do with this? Dear Bianca and others how about the phenomenon of psychological castration we may observe in wolf (and dog) packs? Here, the social pressure (stress) resulting from vigorous domination by the alpha- /breeding female usually prevents other adult female pack members from getting into breeding status or caring for their pups, respectively. The primary cause for this bitch's quite 'normal' behaviour (under such circumstances) then would be her low dominance status in the presence of the owner - probably a consequence of the way she was trained. Of course, psychological castration is related to several factors you mentioned above. Sonja -- ********************************************************** VERHALTENSTHERAPIEN FUER HUNDE Consultancy for Behavior Problems in Dogs Sonja Doll-Sonderegger MSc Zoologist/Ethologist Member VHVTS und V.I.E.T.A. Phone.: +41 / (0)79 / 222-2579 Fax: +41 / (0)86079 / 222-2579 E-mail: speedy@into.ch ********************************************************** From: IN%"matchdog@wxs.nl" "Bianca Uittenbogaard" 16-APR-2000 17:39:44.32 To: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler" CC: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Aggression towards pups Hello Jeanne, you wrote: > Trainers are often faced with the task of teaching a dog to respond > differently than what instinct dictates. Take, for example, the having to > teach a dog not to chase rabbits or deer. <>In either case we're asking the dog to not > respond to a very strong stimulus to give chase. > Your particular situation is admittedly different. Yes of course. You're quite right about that, but that wasn't really what I meant, as you already guessed. In your example, the dogs have to be trained to ignore certain stimuli. This dog was very "over-trained" but obviously not trained to ignore her motherly feelings. So my question really was, is it possible to eradicate certain natural behaviours by not allowing the dog to respond to any other stimuli than those given by the owner. Perhaps this dog was trained into co-dependence or whatever the scientific label would be, to such a level that it did not dare respond to instinct. The pups, this way becoming a source of frustration, presented an unwanted dilemma and therefore were attacked... I admit, I'm just taking an (educated?) guess here. > I wonder, have all the > attacks on the pups been in the presence of her trainer/owner? Does his > presence make the dog more anxious? As far as I know there were at least 6 attacks made, all with the owner present on the other side of the room, as well as his being close to the pups. Since the bitch was not allowed to feed by herself since day one, we got no further data on that. As soon as she realised how the Gentle Leader worked, her aggression became less. She would growl, but look at the owner a second later, because after a couple of times she knew growling would result in her being taken away from the pups. Another thing that came to mind is the fact that pets, as well as some zoo animals cannot relate to situations like this, because they lack experience, having missed out on the example of other animals in the same situation. Like some gorilla's who are in fact sometimes being trained for motherhood and how to care for their babies. Interesting stuff this... perhaps I should go back to school after all! :-) Bianca Bianca Uittenbogaard Matchdog@wxs.nl www.listen.to/click Success is a journey, not a destination From: IN%"matchdog@wxs.nl" "Bianca Uittenbogaard" 16-APR-2000 17:43:07.59 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Aggression towards pups Hello Sonja, You wrote: > how about the phenomenon of psychological castration we may observe in > wolf (and dog) packs? Here, the social pressure (stress) resulting from > vigorous domination by the alpha- /breeding female usually prevents > other adult female pack members from getting into breeding status or > caring for their pups, respectively. > The primary cause for this bitch's quite 'normal' behaviour (under such > circumstances) then would be her low dominance status in the presence of > the owner - probably a consequence of the way she was trained. > Of course, psychological castration is related to several factors you > mentioned above. I've thought about that, and have seen the opposite happen in households where dogs lower ranking in status were bred. Interesting enough, this point. What I've seen happen more than once on such an occasion was a temporary rise in status, as long as the pups were around. When there's more than one bitch with pups in the same household however, I've both seen and heard tell from others as well, that sometimes the more dominant bitch will try to steal the pups away from the other bitch. I do think the pups presented an unwanted dilemma, and were therefore the cause of stress in this bitch. Bianca Bianca Uittenbogaard Matchdog@wxs.nl www.listen.to/click Success is a journey, not a destination From: IN%"Herman@hpeet.demon.nl" "Herman Peet" 17-APR-2000 09:33:34.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Fw: Robin Walker Dear all, Angela asked me to pass the word, see attached message. Best regards, Herman Peet ----- Original Message ----- From: GUY STOCKDALE To: Herman Peet Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 3:34 PM Subject: Robin Walker Herman Seen Robin last week. He is doing so well! Took him out for lunch and it was almost as iff he'd never been ill! He has asked me to let the App. Eth. list that he is off line at the moment so has not forgotten them but he will write back as soon as he is back on line. But ......... I can't remember how to send a message to the forum! Could you please send an email to them to let them know. Many thanks Angela Stockdale The Dog Partnership Hoe Farm Wheddon Cross Minehead Somerset TA24 7EY From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" 17-APR-2000 12:23:46.97 To: IN%"matchdog@wxs.nl" "Bianca Uittenbogaard" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Aggression towards pups Hi Bianca, Klosovski claims to have induced pre-diabetes in the bitches, resulting in hyper-excitability of the bitch. He called them *nervous, agitated*. The pups were then killed at birth and their brains examined for formation and cell density. Compared to control animals, the whelps from high-carbohydrate (they were fed white bread) bitch's pups had significantly lower cell densities in most, if not all cerebral areas. I can't recall all the findings, but the negative bio-behavioral effects were clear. My studies at the time were targeted on the effects of high-carbohydrate diets on domestic dogs. Instinctive behavior can be suppressed, (I don't *think* it can be *erased*) which usually induces measurable behavioral and physiological stress. Empirical example: I am currently working on a case where prey-chasing (deer, etc.) has been squelched by use of an electric shock collar. While the dog does not now chase deer, etc., it has what the owner descibes as *fits* of chaotic aggressive behavior when it sees another dog while on leash wearing the shock collar. This client is *psychologcially blocking* any consideration that the *fits* are the result of suppression of prey chasing through electric shock to the throat. Not a happy case outlook. :-( Gotta run to work now. Bill Campbell BehavioRx Systems Bianca Uittenbogaard wrote: > > Hello Bill, > > You wrote: > > I've had calls from breeders with this problem in the past. Many of the > > bitches were on relatively high carbohydrate diets, which is how B.N. > > Klosovski created problems experimentally in pre-whelped bitches. > > Development of the Nervous System, and its Disturbance by Harmful > > factors. > > Macmillan, NY 1963 > > Interesting! Was the study from Klosovski meant to find out only what effect > the diet of the bitch could have on the development of the pups? Or did this > diet also influence the behaviour of the whelping bitches? And what do you > think about my earlier posted question: Is it possible to train a dog to > such a level that natural > responses do not come naturally anymore? > > So far the interesting answers I have received point to several factors; > hormonal and neuroendocrine influences > pheromones > diet: calcium-levels, vit. B deficiency, carbohydrates > inexperience > stress > > What I am still wondering about is the question about training. Is it > possible to condition animals in such a way that they will no longer obey > their natural instincts, or do you think that training has nothing to do > with this? > > Bianca > > Bianca Uittenbogaard > > Matchdog@wxs.nl > www.listen.to/click > > Success is a journey, not a destination > > > Bianca Uittenbogaard wrote: > > > > > > Hello Kathy and all, > > > > > > you wrote: > > > >>There are potentially many reasons/causes and > > > your theory of it being related to pressure training is certainly > > > interesting, > > > and not one I had considered. Would be an intersting area to study but > how > > > would > > > we obtain meaningful data that might give some answers?. Is it more > common > > > after > > > protracted labours or caesarean sections? Is it related to parity? or > age? > > > or > > > breed?, dog "personality", environment or training?. I doubt it will be > as > > > simple as simply being related to oxytocin levels in isolation, though > > > hormonal > > > factors, pain and stress are likely to be important mediators.<< > > > > > > As I am a professional behaviour counsellor, people contact me in order > to > > > solve the problems they experience with their pets. Most of the time the > > > troublesome behaviour is a natural behaviour that by it's frequency, > > > intensity or duration poses a problem for the owner. I do see the need > for > > > study, but am going to rely on others to do their part in this, so that > I > > > can rely on their findings later on. My job is to solve the problems as > good > > > as I can. But this is an aside. What bothered me in this case was the > fact > > > that this quite original dog was not relying on it's natural instincts. > The > > > dog was very healthy, had an easy birth, and so far as I could see there > was > > > nothing physically wrong with her at all. Stress would certainly be a > factor > > > to repress the natural behaviour in my opinion, as well as a possible > > > hormonal imbalance. But in this case the thing that got me wondering was > the > > > fact that this bitch was conditioned to respond to orders all the time. > > > Could it be that because of that she would not rely on her instinct but > wait > > > for orders? Could it be that she panicked because her owner clearly did > not > > > know what to tell her and was in distress himself? The breed is > high-strung, > > > but normally very self-possessed. > > > > > > >>Likewise I suspect we do not know how these pups would go later in > terms > > > of > > > developing problem behaviours. How would be double blind it to isolate > the > > > effects of post-birth maternal aggression from all other factors that > might > > > effect their subsequent behaviour?. What do others think?. As the > aggression > > > "resolved" by three weeks then perhaps it's effects will not have a long > > > lasting > > > influence - that would be my hypothesis. So much would depend on lots of > > > other > > > factors.<< > > > > > > It's the fact that it took three whole weeks that bothers me. I've been > > > present at quite a few birthings from first time mothers. Some do appear > to > > > be upset, or clearly do not know how to go about things at first, but > most > > > of the time they settle to their motherhood in a couple of days. And > this is > > > really the first time that I witnessed a mother actually damaging > healthy > > > pups. When I visited the family later on, all pups were showing the need > of > > > having their mother around, the two male pups were constantly > beleaguered by > > > the others, so their penises could be used as a pacifier, while others > > > twisted the bedding to suckle on that. The puppy with the damaged ear > had to > > > be stitched under anaesthetic. It almost died during that procedure. It > > > needed five stitches in an ear as big as the nail of my index finger. > When I > > > visited on day two, mom - thanks to ignorance of the owners - had > removed > > > all stitches but one, so I taped the ear to the head as good as I could, > the > > > vet later checked the pup and approved of this. The puppy had trouble > > > breathing and had no muscle tone, it would have died then, if I hadn't > been > > > around. I think these traumatic events must have some influence on the > > > behaviour, sooner or later. > > > > > > >>Just a final comment about the head collar: she could certainly still > have > > > physically biten the pups with a gentle leader on: they are not muzzles. > I > > > think > > > it was a good suggestion but from the point of view of calm, gentle > control, > > > not > > > because it could stop her biting.<< > > > > > > The head halter was meant to provide gentle control, and give the bitch > > > opportunity to wash her pups as well. As soon as she would start > growling, > > > the owner was instructed to get up and leave, taking the bitch away from > the > > > litter, without any negative comments. > > > > > > Thank you for your input. > > > > > > Bianca > > > > > > Bianca Uittenbogaard > > > > > > Matchdog@wxs.nl > > > www.listen.to/click > > > > > > Success is a journey, not a destination From: IN%"matchdog@wxs.nl" "Bianca Uittenbogaard" 17-APR-2000 16:46:36.06 To: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Aggression towards pups Dear Bill, Thank you for taking the time to give a clear answer to my questions. Much appreciated! The bitch I was talking about was fed with a wellknown commercial brand of kibble, and the last couple of weeks in her pregnancy this diet was supplemented by giving puppyfood as well. The carbohydrate percentage would have been average. > Instinctive behavior can be suppressed, (I don't *think* it can be > *erased*) which usually induces measurable behavioral and physiological > stress. Now this is what I was hoping for! Because this answer confirms my suspicions. And your empirical example is clear as well. I recognise the owner in question.... wasn't that my client last week? (just kidding) Sometimes I wonder how we can keep up this work without becoming exasperated. That's why I always try to be a professionist... it's the successes that keep us fuelled. I wish you luck and lots of patience with your client! Bianca ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Campbell To: Bianca Uittenbogaard Cc: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Aggression towards pups > Hi Bianca, > > Klosovski claims to have induced pre-diabetes in the bitches, resulting > in hyper-excitability of the bitch. He called them *nervous, agitated*. > The pups were then killed at birth and their brains examined for > formation and cell density. Compared to control animals, the whelps from > high-carbohydrate (they were fed white bread) bitch's pups had > significantly lower cell densities in most, if not all cerebral areas. I > can't recall all the findings, but the negative bio-behavioral effects > were clear. My studies at the time were targeted on the effects of > high-carbohydrate diets on domestic dogs. > > Instinctive behavior can be suppressed, (I don't *think* it can be > *erased*) which usually induces measurable behavioral and physiological > stress. > > Empirical example: I am currently working on a case where prey-chasing > (deer, etc.) has been squelched by use of an electric shock collar. > While the dog does not now chase deer, etc., it has what the owner > descibes as *fits* of chaotic aggressive behavior when it sees another > dog while on leash wearing the shock collar. This client is > *psychologcially blocking* any consideration that the *fits* are the > result of suppression of prey chasing through electric shock to the > throat. Not a happy case outlook. :-( > > Gotta run to work now. > > Bill Campbell > BehavioRx Systems From: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com" 18-APR-2000 17:35:03.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: over riding natural instincts In a message dated 4/16/00 7:50:27 AM, matchdog@wxs.nl writes: << What I am still wondering about is the question about training. Is it possible to condition animals in such a way that they will no longer obey their natural instincts, or do you think that training has nothing to do with this? Bianca >> Dear Bianca: I have seen many a herding dog and hunting dog ruined by over training with harshness. I have had a case of dog that were so concerned about the owner that he behaved like every move he made may be corrected at any moment. Studies have shown that animals subjected to prolonged experimentally induced neurosis may show extreme signs of STRESS, and their behavior may become pathologically abnormal. They may show great anxiety, loss of appetite, and stereotyped behavior. Eventually they may develop physical symptoms, such as gastric ulcers. In a nut shell, from my experiences with people and dogs, I believe it is possible to condition animals in such a way that they will no longer obey their natural instincts. Especially if the animal is sensitive to harshness. George George Phillip Quinlan All About Dogs Behavior Center From: IN%"research@scz.org" "Emily Weiss" 18-APR-2000 18:33:45.87 To: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: over riding natural instincts See Breland and Breland (1961) The Misbehavior of Organisms. American Psychologist for a discussion on "instinctive drift" Emily Weiss Curator of Behavior and Research Sedgwick County Zoo (316) 942-2212 ex. 257 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 6:34 PM Subject: over riding natural instincts > In a message dated 4/16/00 7:50:27 AM, matchdog@wxs.nl writes: > > << What I am still wondering about is the question about training. Is it > > possible to condition animals in such a way that they will no longer obey > > their natural instincts, or do you think that training has nothing to do > > with this? > > > Bianca > > >> > > Dear Bianca: > > I have seen many a herding dog and hunting dog ruined by over training with > harshness. I have had a case of dog that were so concerned about the owner > that he behaved like every move he made may be corrected at any moment. > Studies have shown that animals subjected to prolonged experimentally induced > neurosis may show extreme signs of STRESS, and their behavior may become > pathologically abnormal. They may show great anxiety, loss of appetite, and > stereotyped behavior. Eventually they may develop physical symptoms, such as > gastric ulcers. > > In a nut shell, from my experiences with people and dogs, I believe it is > > possible to condition animals in such a way that they will no longer obey > > their natural instincts. Especially if the animal is sensitive to harshness. > > George > > George Phillip Quinlan > All About Dogs > Behavior Center > From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 18-APR-2000 19:04:11.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: over riding natural instincts Emily and others interested, The Breland & Breland article is available online at: http://www.yorku.ca/dept/psych/classics/Breland/misbehavior.htm Enjoy, Mark ----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- ----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- ----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- ----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- ----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- -----Original Message----- From: Emily Weiss [mailto:research@scz.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 7:34 PM To: GPQUINLAN@aol.com; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: over riding natural instincts See Breland and Breland (1961) The Misbehavior of Organisms. American Psychologist for a discussion on "instinctive drift" Emily Weiss Curator of Behavior and Research Sedgwick County Zoo (316) 942-2212 ex. 257 From: IN%"matchdog@wxs.nl" "Bianca Uittenbogaard" 19-APR-2000 02:50:50.30 To: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: over riding natural instincts Dear George, Thank you for your answer. It's good to find out that colleagues think I'm not altogether off the mark with my diagnosis, although the other answers I received were very useful indeed. Since I am "just" a behaviour counsellor, I am not into scientific research, even though I gladly use the findings of scientists in this field. One can never really learn enough. Bianca Bianca Uittenbogaard Matchdog@wxs.nl www.listen.to/click Success is a journey, not a destination ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: over riding natural instincts > In a message dated 4/16/00 7:50:27 AM, matchdog@wxs.nl writes: > > << What I am still wondering about is the question about training. Is it > > possible to condition animals in such a way that they will no longer obey > > their natural instincts, or do you think that training has nothing to do > > with this? > > > Bianca > > >> > > Dear Bianca: > > I have seen many a herding dog and hunting dog ruined by over training with > harshness. I have had a case of dog that were so concerned about the owner > that he behaved like every move he made may be corrected at any moment. > Studies have shown that animals subjected to prolonged experimentally induced > neurosis may show extreme signs of STRESS, and their behavior may become > pathologically abnormal. They may show great anxiety, loss of appetite, and > stereotyped behavior. Eventually they may develop physical symptoms, such as > gastric ulcers. > > In a nut shell, from my experiences with people and dogs, I believe it is > > possible to condition animals in such a way that they will no longer obey > > their natural instincts. Especially if the animal is sensitive to harshness. > > George > > George Phillip Quinlan > All About Dogs > Behavior Center From: IN%"rockydel@quiknet.com" "David C Anderson" 19-APR-2000 08:23:25.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Applied Animal Behaviour Science This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_n+AjGnpsiW2EW96xPsewDQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi! In looking for the current subscription rate for Applied Animal = Behaviour Science, I found out that "access to the full text of this = journal is _temporarily_ free. In the course of the next few months, = access will be limited to users that are affiliated to a library that = subscribes to the print edition of the journal." The web site is: www.elsevier.nl/locate/applanim With regards, David C Anderson Rockydell Resources 8732 Rock Springs Road Penryn, California 95663-9622 USA Tel: 916-6632-3294 Email: Rockydel@Quiknet.Com Publisher: Humans & Other Species The Revised Mini-Guide to Pet Loss http://bookzone.com/bookzone/indexed/10001366.html From: IN%"Christoph.Wenzel@tierhyg.vetmed.uni-muenchen.de" 19-APR-2000 08:33:47.65 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Unsubscribers!? Dear all, Did I miss something, or why so many people leave this forum? Last discussions were interesting, weren't they? Yours sincerely Christoph Wenzel, Dr. med. vet. http://www.vetmed.uni-muenchen.de/tierhyg From: IN%"chrisrutt@ntlworld.com" "chrisrutt" 19-APR-2000 12:30:58.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology List", IN%"Christoph.Wenzel@tierhyg.vetmed.uni-muenchen.de" CC: Subj: RE: Unsubscribers!? Very interesting indeed! In my case it is solely to re-subscribe from a new address ;) Best wishes Chris Lovebird Breeder chrisrutt@ntlworld.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: 19 April 2000 17:25 Subject: Unsubscribers!? > Dear all, > Did I miss something, or why so many people leave this forum? > Last discussions were interesting, weren't they? > Yours sincerely > Christoph Wenzel, Dr. med. vet. > http://www.vetmed.uni-muenchen.de/tierhyg From: IN%"hr.lg@mail.telepac.pt" "Humberto Rosa" 19-APR-2000 16:49:21.68 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: International Bioethics Institute Please distribute Call for applications Deadline: April 30, 2000. Announcing=20 International Bioethics Institute Curso Internacional de Bio=E9tica Lisbon, Portugal July 8-14, 2000 For Life Science Faculty Members Funda=E7=E3o Luso-Americana para o Desenvolvimento (FLAD) Luso-American Development Foundation FLAD's International Bioethics Institute (FIBI) is an innovative co-operation between the EU and the USA, aiming at helping life science faculty to guide their students in bioethics. FIBI will be held at = FLAD's headquarters in Lisbon, Portugal, and it consists of a series of one = week long faculty development summer workshops.Participants listen to = lectures from European and American experts, participate in sessions devoted to ethical theory, pedagogy, and policy, and write case studies for use in their biology, marine, agricultural, animal, or environmental science classes. The Institute emphasizes active learning skills, with the goal = of promoting the integration of ethics discussions into the life sciences curriculum. Particular attention is paid to ethical issues in the marine sciences. Also issues such as environmental ethics, intergenerational equality, genetic engineering, and animal welfare and rights. All participants receive lunches, books, case studies, exercises, and bibliographies. Participants from European countries other than Portugal receive 1000 Euro as travel and living expense allowance. Participants = from Portuguese Universities outside the area of Lisbon receive a 500 Euro = travel and living expense allowance. Participants from Portuguese Universities = in the area of Lisbon receive a 250 Euro travel and living expense = allowance. Participants from the US receive a travel stipend of $ 1950. Workshop conducted in English. Applicants must be tenured or = tenure-track life science faculty members. Applicants are favored who are interested = in integrating discussions of ethics into existing marine science courses; = and who apply with colleagues as a team from their institution. Funded by = FLAD, the U. S. National Science Foundation, the European Union DGXII, Iowa = State University Bioethics Program and Office of Biotechnology, and the = Foundation for Science and Technology, Ministry of Science and Technology, = Portugal. Hosts include the Centre of Environmental Biology and the Centre of Philosophy of the University of Lisbon. Deadline for applications: April 30, 2000. Late applications will be considered, if space is available. For more information and application form, go to: http://www.biotech.iastate.edu/Bioethics/Institute/Bioethicsinstintro.htm= l or to http://www.flad.pt/pt/bioethic.html Contact person: Humberto Rosa e-mail: hr.lg@mail.telepac.pt=20 phone: +351. 21 3923681 (home +351.21 4521061) fax +351.21 3968905 From: IN%"dennison@goes.com" "Dennison Family" 19-APR-2000 17:52:31.83 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: introduction My name is Pam Dennison and I train dogs for a living, using the the +R and -P quadrants of OC. I am always looking to broaden my horizons and learn new ways of training and new ways of looking at behaviors to better serve the people and dogs that cross my path. I am looking forward to what this list may have to offer. Pam Dennison Cody, Beau, Carrie Noel and Brandy (rest in peace little pumpkin heads) "If you don't have time to train your dog, get a stuffed animal" dennison@goes.com Positive Motivation Dog Training (New Jersey) http://www.tdog.com/positivedogs From: IN%"Bas.Rodenburg@Etho.VH.WAU.NL" 21-APR-2000 00:18:44.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: reference please Dear Chris, I think 'Measuring Behaviour' by Martin and Bateson is a very clear book on observation and analysis skills. kind regards, Bas Rodenburg Ir. Bas Rodenburg Ethology Group Department of Animal Sciences Wageningen University P.O. Box 338 6700 AH Wageningen The Netherlands Phone +31 317 483942 Fax +31 317 485006 E-mail bas.rodenburg@etho.vh.wag-ur.nl - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hello All, Can anyone recommend an effective text on learning observation skills? Thanks, Chris Redenbach - - - - - - - - - - - - End of Original Message - - - - - - - - - - - - From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 21-APR-2000 13:56:48.26 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: RE: Observational Methods & Skills Chris, you will find a list of key textbooks by going to this URL: http://www.pighealth.com/MEDIA/P/BOOKS/EPIDEMIOLOGY.HTM Best Wishes, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Redenbach To: Sent: Friday, April 21, 2000 Subject: reference please > Hello All, > Can anyone recommend an effective text on learning observation skills? > Thanks, > Chris Redenbach From: IN%"sn9@waikato.ac.nz" "SHINICHI,NAKAGAWA" 22-APR-2000 14:40:43.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Kin Recognition in Earthworms Hi, everybody. Does somebady know related articles on the subject of kin recognition in earthworms or related species (or invertabrates excluding bees and ants)? If you do, please help me. Thanks, Shinichi Nakagawa. From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 24-APR-2000 10:34:34.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: How to unsubscribe Dear All, Just a reminder to graduating students, vacationers and those wanting to unsubscribe from the applied-ethology network. Do not send your request to the list server. To unsubscribe you must send your message to: applied-ethology-request@sask.usask.ca Notice the word "request" in the address? It is important to add the word "request" to any message with commands to subscribe or unsubscribe. In the body of the message, not the subject header, type the command: unsubscribe applied-ethology username@useraddress Where username@useraddress = your e-mail name and e-mail address. If you have any trouble unsubscribing from the list server please send an e-mail message to me requesting your removal from the network. Sincerely, Joe =============== Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada From: IN%"emilypk@bumail.bradley.edu" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 26-APR-2000 11:10:22.03 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: rat king Hi I have a slightly peculiar question. Does any-one know of specimens, photos or documented siting relating to either rat-kings (with their tails tied together) or king-rats (big white guys in the wild)... particularly anything presenting as non-fiction? I am told their is a rat king in a museum in Holland but haven't determined which one. (I already have the books by Hodgson, St. Mars and Hendrickson) Emily P-K From: IN%"celtoi@hotmail.com" "Wind Runner Chapman" 26-APR-2000 16:22:39.88 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Rat King http://www.diacenter.org/exhibs/fritsch/fritsch.html ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"chris.gotman@sympatico.ca" 26-APR-2000 19:16:03.36 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Squirrel king Several squirrel rehabilitators discussed finding litters of squirrels with their tails tied together with nesting material in 1997. At least one of these reported encountering this situation nearly every year. sincerely, Chris Gotman Quebec, Canada From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James Brody" 28-APR-2000 07:55:04.72 To: IN%"Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com" CC: Subj: Georgetown Family Systems (JBonner, Suomi) (long) THE RELATIONSHIP SYSTEM AND INDIVIDUAL VARIATION IN FUNCTIONING Informal Notes: Jim Brody Saturday: 4/15/00, 8 am, at the Reiss Science Center, Georgetown University, Washington, DC Kathleen Kerr had me from her opening remark "Evolution is a fact" and th= e next two days tested my new attraction to this group. There were 28 presentations and panels on the application of Bowen Family System Theory= , described and studied since the late '70s. The meetings, with 120 attending, were somewhat a family event in style as well as topics. = Michael Kerr had co-authored with Dr. Bowen and Bowen's daughter, Joanne,= was a gracious participant in the meeting. Many of the clinician speaker= s used BFST; these folks have not only a wide organization but apparently a= journal devoted to Systems Theory and are very much into cross species comparisons and are a natural match for Russ Gardner's group, the Society= for Across Species Comparisons and Psychopathology . = The following notes are given because of the broad nature of each presentation's title. The speakers haven't seen my scribbles and likely will not. My intent is that you can use my notes to decide whether to pursue a topic through email or other contacts with the respective speake= rs or through literature searches. (Email addresses are available for most = of the speakers via their respective university homepages.) John Bonner, PhD, Cellular Biology, Professor Emeritus, Princeton University = Variation in Evolution and Development. Natural selection depends on variability and that mutation rate itself can vary with environmental conditions. He also reminded us of canalization (Waddington, and perhaps= Sewall Wright in regard to adaptive landscapes) and modularity (so that a= mutation in the liver does not always spread to the rest of the body). H= e used examples of bacterial defenses against antibiotics and bird song to illustrate the effect of environment in activating different patterns of genes. Michael Kerr, MD, Georgetown Family Center, Washington, DC Individual Variation in a Sibling Group. Sketched interactions in his ow= n family that included a schizophrenic brother. An impaired point on a tri= ad stabilizes relations between a father and mother. This stability can prevent differentiation of the one child and allow greater autonomy for nonimpaired siblings. Mary Beth Saffo, PhD, Physiology & Marine Biology, Arizona State University Variation and Complexity in Symbiotic Associations. Thoughts on symbiosis= and definition of self and non self in sponges, coral,, lichens, anemones= , eels, and hermit crabs. Made distinctions between several types of symbiosis. Polly Caskie, PhD, Counseling Psychology, Health South Rehab Hospital, Tallahassee, FL Differentiation and the Brain. Outlined her comparisons of 2 young males= with traumatic head injuries. The male with stronger family ties had better outcomes despite having greater injury and lower initial ability. = The male with poorer outcomes made 2 suicidal attempts, his mother reacte= d with severe depression to his accident. Priscilla Friesen, MSW, Family Systems, GTown Family Center, Washington, = DC The Human Brain and Family. EEG biofeedback studies were conducted in whi= ch synchrony was increased between EEG frequencies and the segments of the brain responsible for their origin. Early anxiety can be a predictor for= more severe impact from head injury. Lunch: Videotape overview of (Murray) Bowen Theory Lynn Fairbanks, PhD, Primatology, University of CA, Los Angeles = Family Influences in the Development of Temperament in Vervet Monkeys: Genes, Mothers, and Social Status. High status mothers pushed child care= onto relatives; low rank mothers were less able to protect their child an= d had fewer resources to help with care. An "intruder challenge" elicited moderate investigations by children of high status mothers; children of l= ow status mothers reacted very recklessly or with avoidance. Heritability w= as 0.95 for impulsive responding and was inversely related to 5-HIAA levels = in CSF. Kathleen Kerr, MSN, MA, Family systems research, GTown Family Center, Washington, DC Variation in Lifetime Reproductive Success of Female Chimpanzees of Gombe= National Park. The Gombe chimps are not sustaining their population; hi= gh rank chimps are either poor or superior reproducers. Maternal rank had n= o relationship to the life span of the young. Patricia Comella, JD, Family theory, Georgetown Family Center, Washington= , DC Elements of Variation in the Concept of Leadership and Other Forms of Reciprocal Functioning. Self disclosure of her handling a new, authoritarian boss in a remote area and in a small group. (Probably woul= d be a good case study for John Price in regard to her finding a new territory --- moving upstairs, taking charge of tasks the new boss dislik= ed --- and slowly accepting her lower status while carefully avoided forming= any alliances with other staff that might threaten top management). She used BFST to guide her self. Consistent with MacLean, Price, and Sloman,= one part of her mind wanted to do the "lizard thing" and escalate, anothe= r wanted to escape. She very rationally mediated both needs for her and fo= r her husband. Jay Schulkin, PhD, Neuroendocrinology, NIH, Bethesda, MD Neurobehavioral and Endocrinology of Fear. Cortisol is associated with long term, destructive effects on bone density, immune system status, memory, and moods. Example: sexually abused women are more apt to have premature deliveries (Ties well to work by Bruce Ellis and others; also t= o preliminary findings from Emory that depressed mothers have elevated cortisol and so do their fetuses.) Daniel Papero, PhD, MSSW, Family systems, Georgetown Family Center The Multigenerational Family, Stress, and Individual Differences. = Consistent with BFST, family responses to challenge are transmitted cross= generationally. Anxious parental styles prevent mature, differentiated, cognitive styles from developing in children. Mark Flinn, PhD, Anthropology, University of Missouri at Columbia, MO Childhood Stress: A Twelve Year Study of Salivary Cortisol Levels, Family= Environments, and Health. Studied cortisol responses in Domenica children= in a small village. "The brain evolved as a social tool." Punishment, fights between parents elevated children's cortisol. Tantrums often did not. Maternal departure elevated cortisol for a prolonged interval. Ste= p children had higher cortisol levels. Comparisons now being made between parental cortisol levels and children's nursing style. Sunday, April 16, 2000, 8:30 am Margaret Donley, MSW, Family systems, Prairie Village, KS How Family Relationships Affect Functioning. Mary Main documented 10 yrs= ago that attachment styles are transmitted across generations in a family= . = Intensity of relationships is amplified by alcohol abuse. Parents who ar= e tense with each other tend to have children who show a lot of mutual tension. Having 2 tense parents is worse than having only 1 who is tense= . = Has an n =3D 125 families now. (again, a nice link to Bruce Ellis and Sapolsky? Unfortunately, had to rely on child memory as a measure of parental tension. Such memory has genetic loading in identical twins reared apart.) Barbara Smuts, PhD, Primatology, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI, = Triangles in Baboons. Great films of baboon interactions. Female groups= are stable and males move between them. Each female as several favorite males with whom to mate. Smuts distinguished protective, invasive, side taking, using a bond, distracting or defusing conflict, redirecting anger= , and inciting while defecting (push your partner into a fight and avoid it= yourself). She's also studied dolphins and is getting interested in wolves. Laurie Fiscella, PhD, Psychology, Child Guidance Clinic, Springfield, MA= The Regulatory Function of Interlocking Triangles. Ants, slime mold, dolphins, and baboons all use impaired individuals to stabilize the rest = of the group by using them for limited option, maintenance roles. (I'm not sure the extent to which she sees these tactics as a manipulation --- e.g= ., "Cripple somebody in order to tend the fungi" or a response to an existin= g need, "Chuck is crippled but he can still tend the fungi." The former option, in family systems, implies some degree of holding a child back in= order to meet the needs of an anxious parent. Don't like it, but in Huxley's words, the indecency of the proposition makes it more likely tru= e. Not sure how it squares with inclusive fitness.) Carol Berman, PhD, Primatology, State University of NY, Buffalo, NY Intergenerational Transmission of Kin Bias Among Free-Ranging Rhesus Monkeys (especially maternal kin). Rhesus have matrilineal groups, the males pass through ( like baboons and humans!). Degree of time with a relative was a linear function of the degree of relationship for each infant. The slope of the line varied, however, across individuals. = However, time with mother did not correlate with offspring's' kin bias (time spent within 2 meters). She suggested that independent learning is= a major component of kin bias. Robert Noone, PhD, Family systems, Wilmette, IL The Family as a Source of Nongenomic Heritable Variation. Parent child relationship a determinant of the degree of cognitive use by a mature offspring. Maternal phenotype varies the child's phenotype. 30 yrs of clinical observation indicates anxious mothers produce anxious children; however, little formal research in humans. Stress to rodent or monkey mothers (pre or post natal) leads to persistent changes in adults. = Specific sources of stress have varied outcomes as function of "seeing it= as manageable." Stress impact abated by cognitive style? Stephen Suomi, PhD, National Institutes of Child & Individual Developmen= t How Gene-Environment Interactions Shape Individual Development Trajectori= es in Rhesus Monkeys. Rhesus matrilines commonly span 3 generations, birth draws the matriline closer. Male offspring are evicted into all male gan= gs where 50% of them die. High impulsiveness predicts earlier eviction by females (and nearly 100% mortality in a year), more aggression, and more injury. Impulsive males will attempt and fail to make, 5 meter leaps through branches. (Human impulsiveness --- arsonists and Marines discharged for aggression --- is correlated with low 5HIAA levels in CSF.= ) = Shows in rhesus play fights, leads to social isolation. Also evident in poor orienting responses at 1 mo. of age; correlated with low 5 HIAA at 1= 4 days & at 5 mos age. Lowest 5 HIAA correlated with highest glucose metabolism, esp. in amygdala & orbital frontal areas. Low 5 HIAA also predicts high alcohol intake in rhesus and avoidance by prospective mates= . = 5 HIAA w high heritability. Genes continue in troop through females who remain but who are incompetent socially and who bond poorly with their subsequent offspring. Early separation from mother and rearing with peers leads to: - clinging to peers but in state of prolonged fear - clumsy play - higher cortisol reactivity - later explosive aggression - lower 5 HIAA - higher ETOH intake. 5 HT transporter gene (5HTTLPR) has several forms. Short and long forms have different outcomes as a function of rearing by peers or by mothers. Concludes "genome" is just a blue print, will not replace understanding o= f social variables. Social variables allow nongenetic transmission of heritable traits??? Lunch: Applying Systems Thinking to Human Behavior, Michael Kerr, MD Cynthia Larkby, PhD, Postdoctoral Fellow, Epidemiology, University of Pittsburgh Maternal Effects on Growth and Cognition. Multi generational families a larger organism. Individual behavior a function of the emotionality in th= e larger system. If system in flux, then individual more vulnerable to anxiety, poor differentiation of self, and poor cognitive use. Larkby found maternal depression and hostility the key variable for predicting lessened growth between 18-72 mos although the children were the same siz= e at birth (n =3D 607). (My recall is the effect washed out after 72 mos.)= = Offspring of nondepressed mothers had IQ =3D 94, 91 if mom both depressed= and hostile. Bruce Cushing, Ph.D., Behavioral ecology, University of Maryland, College= Park, MD Role of Developmental Exposure to Hormones in Individual Differences in Behavior. Genetically identical rodents have variable behaviors. XY gen= es produce phenotypic female if she's insensitive to androgens (androgen insensitivity syndrome). Cushing studied effects of oxytocin & arginine vasopressin (differ by amino acid substitutions in 2 positions). Have effects on aggression learning, memory, maternal behavior, sexual behavio= r, and pair bonding. Early OT exposure leads to weight gain, changes in pai= n thresholds and hormone levels. Early OT in prairie voles leads to enhanc= ed estrus in adults; early AVP leads to more aggressive behavior. Early exposures produce enduring changes. OT leads to protein changes in PVN, amygdala, midline thalamus, SCN, OVLT, Hippocampus, and cortex. Victoria Harrison, MA, Family systems, Houston, TX Differential Reproduction and Differentiation of Self. Her grandmother studied quilt patterns while making them, Harrison remarked that same ability is useful in her studies of phenotype across generations. = Immigrants had few generations but a large family; modern families have more generations of smaller size. Lack of ovulation correlates with fami= ly separation and with greater EMG tension, contact within the family correlates with ovulation for 2 generations. In one case, visits from mother-in-law delayed the wife's ovulation; visit from the wife's sister made it occur earlier. Tapes and Selected References: Tapes available from Georgetown Family Center, $20 each, or $125 for set = of 8; video @ $60 or $375. General Texts on Bowen Theory: Clinical Applications of Bowen Family Systems Theory (Haworth Marriage an= d the Family) by Peter Titelman(Editor). Paperback (September 1998) Amazon= price:$49.95 = Family Evaluation : An Approach Based on Bowen Theory by Michael E. Kerr,= Murray Bowen (Contributor). Hardcover (October 1988) Amazon Price:$35.00 Family Therapy in Clinical Practice by Murray Bowen. Hardcover (February 1985) Amazon Price:$45.50, Paperback (April 1995) Bowen Family Theory and Its Uses by Margaret Hall. Hardcover (August 1979= ) Publisher Out Of Stock Papero, D. 1990. Bowen Family Systems Theory. Boston: Allyn & Bacon. Selected References (only the most recent is given for each speaker): = Berman, C & Kapsalis, E. 1999. Development of kin bias among rhesus monkeys: Maternal transmission or individual learning? Animal Behavior, 5= 3: 405-421. = Bonner, J 1996. Sixty years of biology: Essays on evolution and development. Princeton University Press. Caskie, P. 1999. Bowen theory and health care cost in the United States. = Family Systems. 5:1, 7-18. Comella, P. 1997. Naturally constrained social systems. Family Systems. 4:1, 19-33. Cushing, B & Carter, C. 2000. Peripheral pulses of oxytocin increase partner preferences in female, but not male, prairie voles. Hormones and= Behavior, 37:49-56. Donley, M. 1993. Attachment and the emotional unit. Family Process. 32:2-20. Fairbanks, L. 1996. Individual differences in maternal style: Causes and consequences for mothers and offspring. Advances in the Study of behavio= r, 25: 579-611. Flinn, M. 1999. Family, environment, stress, and health during childhood.= = In: Hormones, Health, and Behavior. C Panter-Brick & Worthman, (Eds.), 105-138. Cambridge Univ. Press. Harrison, v. 1997. Patterns of ovulation, reactivity, and family emotiona= l process. Integrative Neurobiology of Affiliation: Annals of New York Academy of Sciences. Vol 807: 522-524. Kerr, K, 1999. The projection process in health care systems. Family Systems. 5:1, 71-80. Noone, R. 1995. The family unit and the transmission of individual variation in adaptiveness. Family Systems. 2:2, 116-137. Saffo, M. 1992. Coming to terms with a field: Words and concepts in symbiosis. Symbiosis, 14:17-31. Schulkin J, Gold, P., McEwen, B. 1998. Induction of corticotropin releasi= ng hormone gene expression by glucocorticoids: Implications for understandin= g the states of fear, and anxiety, and allostatic load. = Psychoneuroendocrinology, 23: 219-243. Smuts, B 1985. Sex and friendship in baboons. Hawthorne, NY: Aldine de Gruyter. Suomi, S. 1999. Attachment in rhesus monkeys. In J. Cassidy & P Shaver (Eds.) Handbook of attachment: Theory, research and clinical applications= . = NY: Guilford, 181-197. WHY WE'D BETTER LOVE OUR MOTHERS James Brody Forgive me; the following is a bit of a salad. Kauffman & 3. = BFST is consistent with Stu Kauffman's analyses of decision networks (Kauffman, 1995). That is, dyads are less stable than triads and a netwo= rk with 3 or more interconnections between units can take millennia to reach= a decision. It doesn't matter, in theory, whether we are talking about networks of genes, transistors, people, or neurons. Thus, nursing spaces= children. (Talk to any mother with 3 children who are close in age in regard to her being trapped!) We walk a line between stability and instability, using genes, family, peers, and culture as stabilizers in th= e face of environmental and biological chaos. Murray Bowen's observations about "triangles" in human relationships are no surprise and we certainly= can expect similar phenomena in other species, that a singleton is the mo= st variable in outcome, pairs are more predictable, threesomes don't change very much at all, and quartets or more can be very boring. Kids drive parents The conference emphasized the impact of parents on children. Anxious, tense parental relationships result in anxious, tense children. Such mak= es intuitive sense but has been challenged somewhat by Judith Rich Harris (1998) and David Cohen (1999). That is, resilient children can emerge fr= om chaotic families and chaotic children, even when reared by stable familie= s, often remain chaotic. These observations shouldn't trouble anyone; after= all, the conference theme was about variations in individual functioning.= = Harris attributes the outcomes to peer groups; Cohen (and I) tend to smel= l a gene or three. Probably the BFST group would agree and differences between us are a function of individual preferences. My clinical work in a rural area brings me parents, especially mothers, w= ho want their child fixed. Some fathers seem physically unable to put their= 4 yo daughter in time out if she sobs, mothers charge into predator packs -= -- school boards and instructional support teams --- when defending their so= n; mothers also build large nets of gossip about doctors and chase some of them for long distances. Research is supportive of my observations. = Chess and Thomas identified "difficult children" who drove off mothers; mothers attempted to soothe their child and then passed into grieving. Although this page of Darwin's Ledger can be interpreted in several directions, I suspect that all of us --- robins, chimps, and cosmopolites= --- usually work for our kids, that we are invaded by a raptor who uses u= s in the same manner that a placenta uses a mother. (See David Haig, 1993, for a detailed portrait of how mothers are invaded.) Modular and Domain General BFST postulates a seesaw to lie beneath anxiety and cognition. Anxiety between parents keeps the child from becoming independent, thoughtful, an= d analytic. Again, makes sense. However, I know adults who are impulsive but who sit blissfully for 4 hours, tagging plant bulbs and dropping them= individually into paper bags. I also know rushed people who settle when caring for small children and adolescents who do likewise when caring for= small children. Evolutionary psychologists have suggested strongly that we are not "domai= n general" thinkers, that thought solves specific problems of survival and does so quickly and without much variation between individuals. Yes, the= re appears to be an evolved common sense. "Sense" because it works and "common" because we nearly all share it. (Modularity has surprises. For= example, there are two studies, separated by a decade, that normal males cannot identify the face of an upset female! Females do quite well, regardless of the emotion or gender of the target. Males working for females --- bosses or teachers? --- may be at a significant disadvantage.= = Some of us may eventually rally under the ADA!) It could be that parental tension will impair some domains --- those tied= to social interactions? --- but not others. We may also find, as appears= true for ADHD, that complex social and self monitoring can be impaired while limbic and paleocerebellar routines for courtship, mating, dominanc= e, territorality, submission, and about 25 other things will be intact and relatively specific even if not always targeted well. Thus, stress, victory, or finding a warm buddy on our mattress elicits specific cognitive processes related to escape, swaggering, or scratching= our cat. (On the other hand, a cheating wife, depressed mother, poisonin= g, or being immobilized are a few of many experiences that trigger complex, enduring sequences of avoidance, rejection, and escape behaviors that can= sometimes be global.) A gene for memory? Some of the BFST studies depend on memories of family tension; there is, however, some indications from twins research that such memories have a significant genetic loading. That is, identical twins reared apart will have similar memories of their adoptive families, even when there were differences in the actual families taht reared them. Segal (1999), Plomi= n, et al., (1997), and Plomin (1994) mention some of these studies. Could i= t be that "difficult" children are more apt to have "difficult" parents but= also selectively to retain more "difficult" memories regardless of parent= al characteristics? Divergent careers for impulsive kids: Stephen Suomi Suomi's ruddy face is a magnificent study and I wanted to get several photos but rules are rules and I wasn't allowed. Maybe another time. = More seriously, Suomi indicated that impulsive rhesus guys make great lea= ps (more than 5 meters) but miss and fall; they also get into repeated fight= s with larger males and die within a year after being prematurely evicted b= y their mothers. In contrast, he also said at another time in Segerstrale = & Molnar (1997, p. 143), that "... high-reactive infants reared by unusuall= y nurturant attachment figures are remarkably precocious socially and typically rise to the top of their group's dominance hierarchy. The contrast in outcomes for these two groups of impulsive rhesus guys --= - what are the variables that sort them? How do rhesus mothers and aunts decide where to make their investments? The difference is important. Ma= ry Gates could the the reason that Bill is not in jail (Bill was always identified as "that kid in the corner of the class, swinging his legs constantly" and spent time in private schools for "challenging" young men= ) and there appear to be others of us --- construction superintendents, military commanders, politicians, Ellen DeGeneris --- who might fit the "impulsive" model, at least in regard to activity level and taking risks.= = Would the same reactive male do better as the first born or as a singleto= n? Or as the first born? Or to a high ranking mother, as was the case for Bill? Second, it's tempting to see "impulsive" rhesus males as damaged because they become social isolates and die within a year of exclusion. Another view might be considered, that increased behavior variability pays off in= difficult niche conditions. Just as mutation rate varies in bacteria and= drosophila in stressful conditions (heat, starvation, toxins), so might social "mutation." Although the reactive ones are "throw aways" in stabl= e circumstances, some of them might have a different outcome when niches change. I'm NOT suggesting some type of evolutionary "plan" but one possible outcome from a statistical game wherein scattering bets results = in some of them winning. The bias in nature is such that one winning bet, unlike Resorts or Vegas, usually predicts another winning bet and some fe= w of us who make 5 meter jumps do land on a firm branch. "Damaged" in one= circumstance become "selective advantage" in another. References: Cohen, D. (1999) Stranger in the Nest: Do Parents Really Shape their Child's Personality, Intelligence, or Character? NY: Wiley. Haig, D. (1993) Genetic conflicts in human pregnancy. Quarterly Review of= Biology, 68(4), 495-532. Harris, J. (1998) The Nurture Assumption: Why Children Turn Out the Way They Do. NY: Free Press. Kauffman, S. (1995) At Home in the Universe. NY: Oxford Plomin, R. (1994) Genetics and Experience: The Interplay between Nature a= nd Nurture. Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage. = Plomin, R., DeFries J, McClearn G, & Rutter M. (1997) Behavioral Genetics= (3rd ed.) NY: Freeman. Segal, N. (1999) Entwined Lives: Twins and What They Tell Us About Human Behavior. NY: Dutton. Suomi, S. (1997) Nonverbal communication in nonhuman primates: Implicatio= ns fo r the emergence of culture. In Segerstrale, U. & Molnar, P. (Eds.) = Nonverbal Communication: Where Nature Meets Culture. Mahway, NJ: Erlbaum.= pp. 131-150. Jim Brody Clinical Sociobiology http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary From: IN%"kblock+@pitt.edu" "Karen Block" 28-APR-2000 13:47:40.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Equine scramble Hello all. Can anyone tell me why apparently equines do not have the concept of "going around". Four out of five equines are in the barn and the fifth wants in. the barn and fencing are built such that this fifth equine, in order to get in the barn, must turn away from the barn, go about thirty feet to a gate, go through the gate, proceed along the same fencline (now travelling on the otherside of it) straight back to the barn where he or she will be let directly into the barn. all equines are thoroughly familiar with this situation, having lived in it for three years. every equine does the same thing when tested: digs in next to the barn and will not budge away from it voluntarily under any conditions even when the other four equines are getting their grain. the fifth equine could have, but did not, decide to "go around " through the gate. Another situation happens when the herd goes out to pasture and a gate through which they must pass is part way open and wedged into the ground. Often, one of the equines will get caught between the fence and the gate and then they cannot go with the rest of the herd. Instead of cognizing, "Aha, I must "go around"" (the gate to get through the fence opening) ,they invariably will keep the travelling herd in view, and run back and forth in their little enclosure, caught there and getting anxious. They either finally figure it out (a delayed cognition), or as luck would have it, their body orientation changes to allow the recognition of a way out. and offthey go to join the herd. So, my question is, do we have here examples of the herd instinct at work and is this the reason equines fail to show the rudimentary concept of "going around"? what sort of situation , naturalistic of course, would allow for a test of the concept of "going around?" Thanking you all in advance. KB KBlock+@pitt.edu Karen K. Block Dept of Psychology in Education 5A16 Forbes Quadrangle Pittsburgh, PA 15260 Eating Well is the Best Revenge----Marion Buros From: IN%"celtoi@hotmail.com" "Wind Runner Chapman" 28-APR-2000 15:00:55.28 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Equine scramble I have seen the behavior often. I have aslo seen the same horses in the same locality walk around. The times when they did not go around were feeding times. I guess that a concept of competion for food, at that point was stronger than thier ability to think. However, this gives me some wonderful ideas for experiments! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"jeanpascal.guery@free.fr" "Jean-Pascal Guery" 28-APR-2000 20:10:07.78 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Pain in piglets (again) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_PhhVfR6nZf36QEJ0//qdOg) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, I wish to thank again every one who give me answer about tail docking = in piglets. The questions I gave few weeks ago were for a friend of = mine. She now works at ITP (french pig technic institute) and you can = join her by mailing her at gaelle_bataille@yahoo.fr . Regards from Paris. jeanpascal.guery@free.fr http://www-comp.univ-paris13.fr --Boundary_(ID_PhhVfR6nZf36QEJ0//qdOg) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,
I wish to thank again every one who give me = answer=20 about tail docking  in piglets. The questions I gave few weeks ago = were for=20 a friend of mine. She now works at ITP (french pig technic institute) = and you=20 can join her by mailing her at gaelle_bataille@yahoo.fr=20 .
Regards from Paris.
jeanpascal.guery@free.fr
= http://www-comp.univ-paris13.fr<= /A>
 
--Boundary_(ID_PhhVfR6nZf36QEJ0//qdOg)-- From: IN%"SKEHansen@aol.com" 29-APR-2000 09:01:32.76 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: HRV Dissertation Dear all, my dissertation is available now as a download on this website: http://sundoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/diss-online/00/00H318/Index.htm Titel: "Kurz- und langfristige Aenderungen von Herzschlagvariabilitaet und Herzschlagfrequenz als Reaktion auf Veraenderungen in der sozialen Umwelt (Gruppierung und Grooming-Simulation) von Hausschweinen". "Short and long term changes in heart rate variability and heart rate in response to changes in the social environment (grouping and grooming-simulation) of domestic pigs". Language: german (with an english summary) If you have further questions to this work, please contact me via E-mail or snail-mail: Sven.Hansen@bigfoot.de or Dr. Sven Hansen Schorlemerallee 3 D-14195 Berlin Germany Best wishes, Sven P.S. I'm looking for a post-doc-position From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 1-MAY-2000 06:41:20.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Equine scramble I think we are in the domain of "raccoons and coins; monkey puzzles and dogs faced with problems rewards in mazes. Work by folk such as the Breland(s), Harlow or Chapuis (et al.) on "detour" problems in particular is relevant to this discussion. Our late colleage John Fisher entertained us with his demonstrations with dogs and transparent barriers. John's was interested in the changes in a dog's behaviour when it "learned" to solve the maze. It seemed that learning to succeed in a task relieved frustration and resuled in a "happier" dog. The science (such as it is) is to be found in the literature mentioned above. "...Before each trial, the dogs were given walks along both paths to familiarize them with the distances involved. When the barrier was opaque, the dogs had a significant preference for the shorter route, but when the barrier was made of open mesh, so that the food was visible, the preference for the shorter toute fell to chance. It was as if the dogs became so excited at the prospect of receiging food that they could not resist the urge to take the "direct" path, even though the familiarization walks had shown them that it took longer. The sight of food maye elicit an intense motivational state what overpowers more "rational" considerations." As goes the dog and horse so goes the human. The horror of the piled bodies in the fire escape, the musketeers dropping their balls and firing their ramrods, and all the myriad mishaps of emotion clouding intellect, should recall us to humility! I think my staff are due tor a "fire drill"! (References available.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Karen Block To: Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 8:47 PM Subject: Equine scramble > Hello all. > Can anyone tell me why apparently equines do not have the concept of "going > around". Four out of five equines are in the barn and the fifth wants in. > the barn and fencing are built such that this fifth equine, in order to get > in the barn, must turn away from the barn, go about thirty feet to a gate, > go through the gate, proceed along the same fencline (now travelling on the > otherside of it) straight back to the barn where he or she will be let > directly into the barn. all equines are thoroughly familiar with this > situation, having lived in it for three years. every equine does the same > thing when tested: digs in next to the barn and will not budge away from > it voluntarily under any conditions even when the other four equines are > getting their grain. the fifth equine could have, but did not, decide to > "go around " through the gate. > Another situation happens when the herd goes out to pasture and a gate > through which they must pass is part way open and wedged into the ground. > Often, one of the equines will get caught between the fence and the gate > and then they cannot go with the rest of the herd. Instead of cognizing, > "Aha, I must "go around"" (the gate to get through the fence opening) ,they > invariably will keep the travelling herd in view, and run back and forth in > their little enclosure, caught there and getting anxious. They either > finally figure it out (a delayed cognition), or as luck would have it, > their body orientation changes to allow the recognition of a way out. and > offthey go to join the herd. > So, my question is, do we have here examples of the herd instinct at work > and is this the reason equines fail to show the rudimentary concept of > "going around"? what sort of situation , naturalistic of course, would > allow for a test of the concept of "going around?" Thanking you all in > advance. KB > > KBlock+@pitt.edu > > Karen K. Block > Dept of Psychology in Education > 5A16 Forbes Quadrangle > Pittsburgh, PA 15260 > > Eating Well is the Best Revenge----Marion Buros > From: IN%"emilypk@bumail.bradley.edu" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 1-MAY-2000 08:27:54.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Equine scramble (drifting off topic) > Our late colleage John Fisher entertained us with his > demonstrations with dogs and transparent barriers. John's > was interested in the changes in a dog's behaviour when it "learned" to > solvethe maze. It seemed that learning to succeed in a task relieved > frustration > andresuled in a "happier" dog. One of Skinner's favorite points was that 'successful completion' in any task was the real reinforcer. It was the basis of his 'programmed instruction' which avoided punishment and 'motivational' features which would distract from learning by achievement - i.e. we enjoy the things we can do, as much as we do the things we enjoy... > The science (such as it is) is to be found in the literature mentioned > above. > > "...Before each trial, the dogs were given walks along both paths to > familiarize them with the distances involved. When the barrier was opaque, > thedogs had a significant preference for the shorter route, but when the > barrier wasmade of open mesh, so that the food was visible, the preference > for the > shortertoute fell to chance. It was as if the dogs became so excited at > the > prospect ofreceiging food that they could not resist the urge to take the > "direct" > path, even thoughthe familiarization walks had shown them that it took > longer. The sight of > food maye elicit an intense motivational state what overpowers more > "rational"considerations." Ditto in the self-control literature.... Making the impulsive short term choice visible increases the chance it will be chosen. (demonstrated with pigeons choosing a bit of food now over a lot later, if they could see the immediate reward through a transparent wall they chose it more often, in Mazur, 2000) If the walls were made transparent only where they showed the longer-successful path should increase the selection of the self-controlled choice. > As goes the dog and horse so goes the human. The horror of the piled > bodies > inthe fire escape, the musketeers dropping their balls and firing their > ramrods, and all the myriadmishaps of emotion clouding intellect, should > recall us to humility! > This same emotional response is generally adaptive, i.e. sories of people lifting heavy girders off trapped people etc... just designed for any environment with less in the way of enclosed spaces? As for going around - it may be herding/flocking but I think its probably more to do with the sophisticated thinking necessary to go away from something in order to get to it. Given the option my rats always preferred jumping over the maze walls to going around them - forthright little beasties... I see a similar phenomenon in busy airports. Some larger individuals just force their way to the front rather than cueing up behind the wiggly tapes like a good little citizens - their strategy is usually rather effective (but highly annoying to me) E