From: IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 15-APR-2003 16:54:28.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology (E-mail)" CC: Subj: avoidance by cattle of contaminated pasture All I have a colleague who is seeking information/references on whether cattle avoid grazing pasture that has urine and faeces on it - particularly from other species, and she's mainly interested in the cattle-macropod interaction, but will be happy to get any information. She has been told by farmers that macropods make large areas of pasture un-grazable for cattle, but wonders where the evidence is. She cannot find out if this assertion is because of the presence of urine and faeces, or some other reason (jumping on the pasture and flattening it?). She has found a few papers on cattle and species other than macropods, but these papers appear not to give information on how and why areas are avoided (in fact there's even doubt about whether they are). She would be very grateful if anybody is able to help out. Many thanks. Carol "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated" Mahatma Gandhi Carol Petherick Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Dept Primary Industries Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences (Beef) PO Box 6014 Central Qld Mail Centre N Rockhampton Queensland 4702 Australia ph: +61 (0)7 4936 0331 fax: +61 (0)7 4936 0390 e-mail: carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. From: IN%"lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Lewis=20Kirkham?=" 16-APR-2003 01:42:10.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: A question. G'day everyone, I am a small animal veterinarian from Australia. Yesterday at one of the practices I work at (I was not working at the time thankfully) one of the vet nurses was severely savaged on the arm by a Great Dane. She was put into hospital etc.. This happened in the waiting room when she was just offering the dog a treat after patting it. The Great Dane had just had pups and despite the owners being told to leave the pups at home and bring the bitch on her own the owners still brought the pups along. To me this appears to be a case of maternal aggression. The owners claim that the dog has had no aggressive tendencies previously and just commenced with the birth of the pups. My veterinary colleague has previously examined the dog (before she was pregnant) and says that the owners did seem to hold the head of the dog rather firmly when he was examining it - possibly they know more than they are saying??? My question is should this dog be euthanased on the grounds of aggression? and attacking a person? My veterinary colleague (the one on duty that day) is of the opinion that she should be euthanased (after weaning the pups). I would think that it is difficult to say - she should at least be neutered in my opinion. I would be interested in any thoughts/comments. Thanks Regards Lewis Kirkham BVSc MRCVS Veterinarian PS the nurse is at home now and doing ok. http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz" 16-APR-2003 02:00:49.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A question. Great Dane bitches do seem to be prone to be aggressive while nursing pups - at least those that I have owned were - and visitors needed to be kept well away while the pups were young. My feeling is that the owners are responsible for putting the bitch in a situation so outside her reasonable comfort zone that she was caused to make a bad judgement. I'm not at all clear how natural justice is served in any sense by killing the bitch for the owners misjudgement. How about re-education of the owners? Regards Andy -----Original Message----- From: Lewis Kirkham [mailto:lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au] Sent: Wednesday, 16 April 2003 7:42 p.m. To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: A question. G'day everyone, I am a small animal veterinarian from Australia. Yesterday at one of the practices I work at (I was not working at the time thankfully) one of the vet nurses was severely savaged on the arm by a Great Dane. She was put into hospital etc.. This happened in the waiting room when she was just offering the dog a treat after patting it. The Great Dane had just had pups and despite the owners being told to leave the pups at home and bring the bitch on her own the owners still brought the pups along. To me this appears to be a case of maternal aggression. The owners claim that the dog has had no aggressive tendencies previously and just commenced with the birth of the pups. My veterinary colleague has previously examined the dog (before she was pregnant) and says that the owners did seem to hold the head of the dog rather firmly when he was examining it - possibly they know more than they are saying??? My question is should this dog be euthanased on the grounds of aggression? and attacking a person? My veterinary colleague (the one on duty that day) is of the opinion that she should be euthanased (after weaning the pups). I would think that it is difficult to say - she should at least be neutered in my opinion. I would be interested in any thoughts/comments. Thanks Regards Lewis Kirkham BVSc MRCVS Veterinarian PS the nurse is at home now and doing ok. http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen MRCVS" 16-APR-2003 05:40:07.55 To: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A question. May be related to effects of Prolactin, which can cause behavioural changes in pseudopregnant bitches too. Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Beck" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:00 AM Subject: RE: A question. > Great Dane bitches do seem to be prone to be aggressive while nursing pups - > at least those that I have owned were - and visitors needed to be kept well > away while the pups were young. My feeling is that the owners are > responsible for putting the bitch in a situation so outside her reasonable > comfort zone that she was caused to make a bad judgement. I'm not at all > clear how natural justice is served in any sense by killing the bitch for > the owners misjudgement. > How about re-education of the owners? > > Regards > Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lewis Kirkham [mailto:lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au] > Sent: Wednesday, 16 April 2003 7:42 p.m. > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: A question. > > > G'day everyone, > I am a small animal veterinarian from Australia. > Yesterday at one of the practices I work at (I was not > working at the time thankfully) one of the vet nurses > was severely savaged on the arm by a Great Dane. She > was put into hospital etc.. This happened in the > waiting room when she was just offering the dog a > treat after patting it. > The Great Dane had just had pups and despite the > owners being told to leave the pups at home and bring > the bitch on her own the owners still brought the pups > along. To me this appears to be a case of maternal > aggression. The owners claim that the dog has had no > aggressive tendencies previously and just commenced > with the birth of the pups. My veterinary colleague > has previously examined the dog (before she was > pregnant) and says that the owners did seem to hold > the head of the dog rather firmly when he was > examining it - possibly they know more than they are > saying??? > My question is should this dog be euthanased on the > grounds of aggression? and attacking a person? My > veterinary colleague (the one on duty that day) is of > the opinion that she should be euthanased (after > weaning the pups). I would think that it is difficult > to say - she should at least be neutered in my > opinion. > I would be interested in any thoughts/comments. > Thanks > Regards > Lewis Kirkham BVSc MRCVS > Veterinarian > PS the nurse is at home now and doing ok. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile > - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. > > From: IN%"JLGhmn8532@aol.com" 16-APR-2003 06:29:19.91 To: IN%"lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A question. There is no logical reason to put the dog down. Without actually being there, I can only say the bitch appears to be protecting her pups or at least her 'pack.' Don't you agree? Clearly though, it also appears that the owners aren't telling the whole story about the bitch's temperament. The vet needs to do some research and place responsibility on the owners for the dog's behavior. Although, the dog shows to be acting on her innate behavior. Again, I wholeheartedly disagree that the dog should be put down. After all, the vet should realize certain 'hazards' about the job. If necessary, muzzle the dog prior to any veterinary care procedures, and next time refuse to see the dog if the owners can't follow simple directions regarding leaving the pups at home. Jeff Gehman, BS, DDH Houston, TX From: IN%"canine.education@bigpond.com.au" "Canine Education and Behaviour Research" 16-APR-2003 07:07:40.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A question. Hi I can't quite understand why you would want to either Spey or put down a bitch when you (and I concur with your opinion) believe it to be maternal aggression. If the bitch has been to the clinic before and has shown no aggression on these visits (holding the head firmly won't prevent you from seeing and hearing aggressive intent) Hormones are the most likely reason. Surely education of the owners as suggested previously is the way to go. I cannot believe that such a natural function of protecting her pups could or indeed should result in the bitch's death. Re speying, that's a choice for the owners either act responsibly with the bitch when she is in whelp (as maternal aggression cannot be possibly considered to be a character flaw) or don't breed from her again. Regards Iain Macdonald "Canine Education and Behavioural Research" Sth Gippsland Hwy Lang Lang Victoria Australia 3984 Phone: (61) 3 59975575 Mobile: 0419205120 ICQ: 165558291 canine.education@bigpond.com.au rrenroc@bigpond.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lewis Kirkham" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 5:42 PM Subject: A question. > G'day everyone, > I am a small animal veterinarian from Australia. > Yesterday at one of the practices I work at (I was not > working at the time thankfully) one of the vet nurses > was severely savaged on the arm by a Great Dane. She > was put into hospital etc.. This happened in the > waiting room when she was just offering the dog a > treat after patting it. > The Great Dane had just had pups and despite the > owners being told to leave the pups at home and bring > the bitch on her own the owners still brought the pups > along. To me this appears to be a case of maternal > aggression. The owners claim that the dog has had no > aggressive tendencies previously and just commenced > with the birth of the pups. My veterinary colleague > has previously examined the dog (before she was > pregnant) and says that the owners did seem to hold > the head of the dog rather firmly when he was > examining it - possibly they know more than they are > saying??? > My question is should this dog be euthanased on the > grounds of aggression? and attacking a person? My > veterinary colleague (the one on duty that day) is of > the opinion that she should be euthanased (after > weaning the pups). I would think that it is difficult > to say - she should at least be neutered in my > opinion. > I would be interested in any thoughts/comments. > Thanks > Regards > Lewis Kirkham BVSc MRCVS > Veterinarian > PS the nurse is at home now and doing ok. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile > - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. > From: IN%"mad@nofeardavis.org" "Maren Plagens" 16-APR-2003 08:20:50.88 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: A question. I have been in dog training and behavior for quite some time. In my experience if a bitch is maternally aggressive, at least that severely, then she is aggressive. Now I am not advocating putting this dog down at all. I am recommending that the owners learn how to properly handle their dog! That they assume responsibility for her actions. Perhaps even work with a trainer that specializes in aggressive behavior. I would also like to point out that the worker did not get bit after or during handling of babies! She got bit after feeding a treat (a submissive gesture) probably with very submissive body language, that is the natural way we feed treats, then she patted her on the head, a very dominate move. Now I don't have all the details but my guess would be that she is a very dominant dog and that combined with raging hormones is enough to send anyone to the hospital that crossed her. I would also like to point out a little more about why I am making this guess. Holding the head a little tight during exams. That is likely to increase aggressive reactions given half a chance. She feels the owner’s insecurity but would attribute it to the vet’s office, or the vet, (depending of how she generalizes) not to herself. I imagine that she is extremely pampered and rarely has to do anything she doesn't want to. Increasing dominance over people. I know that I am making a lot of assumptions (something we should never do) and so I could be completely wrong if a few details were added or changed. I just cannot remember the number of times when working with aggressive puppies I would ask the owners of the puppy, "did you meet the mother, did she show signs of aggression?" the answer was always, "no, she was just a little gaurdy of her babies" or, "we did not meet her because the owner said she was too protective of her babies" Also in my experience if a dog is "possessive aggressive" of her puppies it is also likely that she will be possessive aggressive with the owner, which people like to call protective when it is in fact guarding, but keep in mind it is possession guarding not owner guarding. A significant distinction. The hormone change a bitch goes through undoubtedly changes her behavior but it does not alter who she is. I would watch carefully the behavior of those puppies if possible and report back how many have "behavior problems" in 10 weeks. Biting, growling, possession aggression etc. I do think that the bitch should be spayed. I would never recommend anyone get a puppy from a bitch that has displayed such aggression. In fact if someone asked me for advise on choosing a puppy I would steer him or her far away from any puppy that you couldn't handle in front of the mother! Whether you are a nature or nurture believer, those puppies have everything against them. Aggressive nature of the mother and nurture is worse because during their most impressionable time, she is at her absolute worst! I have met countless numbers of nursing females. I will admit never a Great Dane, but Rottweilers, American Saffordshire Terriers, Pit Bull Terriers, Doberman Pincers, Presa Canarios, all the way down to Chihuahuas. My favorite breeds are large working breeds, the ones "known" for aggressive behavior. And I could lay down with pups and cuddle with moms standing over me. Handle them, give shots, roll them over on their backs and stress them, making them cry out. I will hold by my opinion that nursing is not a good enough reason to justify aggression! Especially that severe! Maren Plagens Canine Education and Behaviour Research wrote: >Hi > >I can't quite understand why you would want to either Spey or put down a >bitch when you (and I concur with your opinion) believe it to be maternal >aggression. If the bitch has been to the clinic before and has shown no >aggression on these visits (holding the head firmly won't prevent you from >seeing and hearing aggressive intent) Hormones are the most likely reason. >Surely education of the owners as suggested previously is the way to go. I >cannot believe that such a natural function of protecting her pups could or >indeed should result in the bitch's death. Re speying, that's a choice for >the owners either act responsibly with the bitch when she is in whelp (as >maternal aggression cannot be possibly considered to be a character flaw) or >don't breed from her again. > >Regards > >Iain Macdonald >"Canine Education and Behavioural Research" >Sth Gippsland Hwy >Lang Lang Victoria Australia 3984 >Phone: (61) 3 59975575 >Mobile: 0419205120 >ICQ: 165558291 >canine.education@bigpond.com.au >rrenroc@bigpond.com.au >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Lewis Kirkham" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 5:42 PM >Subject: A question. > > > > >>G'day everyone, >>I am a small animal veterinarian from Australia. >>Yesterday at one of the practices I work at (I was not >>working at the time thankfully) one of the vet nurses >>was severely savaged on the arm by a Great Dane. She >>was put into hospital etc.. This happened in the >>waiting room when she was just offering the dog a >>treat after patting it. >>The Great Dane had just had pups and despite the >>owners being told to leave the pups at home and bring >>the bitch on her own the owners still brought the pups >>along. To me this appears to be a case of maternal >>aggression. The owners claim that the dog has had no >>aggressive tendencies previously and just commenced >>with the birth of the pups. My veterinary colleague >>has previously examined the dog (before she was >>pregnant) and says that the owners did seem to hold >>the head of the dog rather firmly when he was >>examining it - possibly they know more than they are >>saying??? >>My question is should this dog be euthanased on the >>grounds of aggression? and attacking a person? My >>veterinary colleague (the one on duty that day) is of >>the opinion that she should be euthanased (after >>weaning the pups). I would think that it is difficult >>to say - she should at least be neutered in my >>opinion. >>I would be interested in any thoughts/comments. >>Thanks >>Regards >>Lewis Kirkham BVSc MRCVS >>Veterinarian >>PS the nurse is at home now and doing ok. >> >>http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile >>- Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. >> >> >> > > > > From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 16-APR-2003 08:33:35.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fwd: avoidance by cattle of contaminated pasture This is a paragraph from a report I wrote a couple of years ago. It contains some information and sources on this question: "When grazing, cattle show evidence of being selective in their intake (Fraser, A.F. 1980). Their degree of selectivity can be high, showing a preference for plants of particular species and even of certain growth stages within the plant species. Herbage contaminated with feces is usually rejected. However, if the pasture is widely contaminated [e.g., by liquid manure spread on it], the grass finally is eaten despite its having been contaminated (Tribe, 1955, cited in Hafez and Bouissou 1975). Laws, et al. (1996) allowed steers a choice between a control sward (C) on which no liquid manure/slurry was spread, a sward on which liquid manure was injected (I) and a sward on which liquid manure was sprayed (S), and found that the steers spent more time examining and eating C, took a greater proportion of bites on C, and reduced the sward surface height more on C compared with S or I. Similarly, cattle avoid plants with hairy or coarse appearance (Fraser, A.F. 1980). When plants are scarce, they are less selective." http://www.mnplan.state.mn.us/eqb/geis/TWP_AnimalHealth.pdf Hope it is helpful -- maybe the references will lead you to other sources. Marlene Halverson From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 16-APR-2003 09:07:28.09 To: IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" CC: Subj: RE: avoidance by cattle of contaminated pasture HI Carol, It is a strange coincidence that your request should come at the exact time I was reading the latest BEEF magazine (April, 2003) and the article, "Beetle Mania"; a story all about dung beetles! Quoting the article, "When conditions are right, Walt Davis has seen dung beetles completely recycle manure in heavily stocked pastures in as few as 36 hr. after the cattle were moved. And it is no secret that most ruminants won't graze closely to their own specie's manure pat. The forage is palatable, but it avoided because of the dung pile." So Carol, according to the article it is "no secret" that ruminants avoid forage contaminated with manure. Is there a scientific paper reporting this? Perhaps some of the papers on bovine internal parasites and their cycles have the evidence you seek. It would make biological sense to avoid contaminated areas as a means of reducing parasite infection. More quotes from the BEEF article, "Truman Fincher, retired USDA entomologist now living in Arlington, GA directed the dung beetle research program at the USDA-ARS Food Animal Protection Research Laboratory at College Station, TX. His research was directed at importing and introducing dung beetle species form other continents - mainly Africa and Australia - that would complement and not compete with native populations". Carol, I thought you might appreciate the fact we have been importing your Australian dung beetles. Also, I am certain that Fincher has published articles on the dung beetle and perhaps he mentions the relationship between manure contaminated pastures and the reluctance of animals to graze close to manure pats. Hope this helps. Joe Stookey ======================== Joseph M. Stookey Dept. of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 From: IN%"canine.education@bigpond.com.au" "Canine Education and Behaviour Research" 16-APR-2003 15:53:29.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A question. In response to Marens post I cannot agree with you that the bitch is INAPPROPRIATELY aggressive in a general manner. Aggression was one of the many things that breed required when it was first designed. To my way of thinking the bitch has in this instance reacted appropriately if you consider her perception, she had only recently whelped then her and her puppies are bundled off to a vet surgery where there was no doubt other dogs, all sound really stressful to me. Re the nurse would have been in a submissive position to give the treat. I have a major problem with that one, most people actually assume a dominant position when feeding a dog a treat, they are usually directly front on to the dog, they usually bend over the top of the dog and the frequently have the arm holding the treat descending from above the dog. We have no information other than the nurse was bitten on the arm as to her position, considering the sheer size of a Dane I would assume, and its only an assumption, she was standing which is not likely to have been as suggested a submissive position. I am not in any way addressing the competency of the nurse, I don't know her or how she reacts around dogs, the above comments are a generalisation of how people at large approach a dog. You also mention that in your opinion the bitch is obviously dominant, is it not also possible that the bitch is fearful? One point I really want to make is dogs will be aggressive at times, what we actually need to be asking is if it was appropriate or not, a position which we must look at, as best as possible, from the dogs point of view. The paradox is that this is one of the very reasons we actually keep them and yet to mention that a dog reacted to a situation with aggression its very life is called into question unless such an action involves the protection of their handler (even then it can be touch and go). I still say the fault is with the owners, they failed to follow instructions given, they failed to effectively control their dog and more importantly failed to read their dogs intentions and as the dog does not have a history of aggressive behaviour I can't draw the conclusion that this situation is indicative of the dogs general behaviour. Re bitches which show maternal aggression passing on aggression per say, One of my Malinois bitches is aggressive when she has pups, her daughter recently had a litter and is the exact opposite, she appears to enjoy every one coming and looking at her pups. We as humans can and often do take liberties which we wouldn't with other species when it comes to the dog. With regards to what the pups are learning from their mother and during the time it is happening again we disagree, the above mentioned Malinois was particularly aggressive for the first two days and this lessened after that, pups only have two of their senses working at this stage, touch and smell, thus the learning of an aggressive response is highly unlikely unless it (the bitches response) continued post 3 weeks. This again is a factor we know nothing about with regards to this bitch. I can see we will have to agree to disagree on this one as apart from a single incident there has been no evidence provided that the dog is dominant or aggressive in its nature. But I do also add you may be correct if other evidence is supplied about the bitch in general which supports your position, information we simply don't have at present. Regards Iain Macdonald "Canine Education and Behavioural Research" Sth Gippsland Hwy Lang Lang Victoria Australia 3984 Phone: (61) 3 59975575 Mobile: 0419205120 ICQ: 165558291 canine.education@bigpond.com.au rrenroc@bigpond.com.au From: IN%"espinay@bigpond.com" "Tracy" 16-APR-2003 17:26:20.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A question. <> Lewis Kirkham BVSc MRCVS As well as addressing owner education, perhaps the issue of staff education should also be raised? I have no knowledge of this particular vet nurses experience with reading canine body language etc, but do feel that those required to work with dogs, particularly in stressful situations, should be given training in this area for their own benefit as well as the dogs. What was the dogs body language during this encounter? There are rarely not signs given before an 'attack'. Was she giving any body language 'warnings' that she was not happy with the nurse being so close to her pups before the incident that the nurse ignored/did not understand? Tracy Bassett Murrumbateman, Australia espinay@bigpond.com From: IN%"espinay@bigpond.com" "Tracy" 16-APR-2003 17:47:57.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A question. << She got bit after feeding a treat (a submissive gesture) probably with very submissive body language>> Maren Plagens I don't think I would always consider giving a treat a submissive gesture. A person with body and hand moving towards a dog (particularly if they are directly in front of them) could certainly be considered a threat in certain circumstances. Didn't the pat happen before the treat? A hypothetical: Person moves forward to pat the dog. Dog gives 'not happy' signals. Person moves back slighly (to the dog it seems the warning that they are uncomfortable with them being there has been noted) to retrieve a treat then advances again. Add to this the position of the pups in relation to the dog. Were they behind the dog so that the person was moving towards them as well? Tracy Bassett Espinay Pyrenean Mountain Dogs http://www.actcdc.org.au Murrumbateman, Australia espinay@bigpond.com From: IN%"lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Lewis=20Kirkham?=" 16-APR-2003 20:01:29.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology group" CC: Subj: Thank-you G'day everyone, Thanks for the quick response! I will attempt to clarify each email I receive regarding. Much appreciated. Regards Lewis Kirkham http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From: IN%"lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Lewis=20Kirkham?=" 16-APR-2003 20:14:22.23 To: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology group" CC: Subj: RE: A question. Dear Andy, I agree with re-education of owners etc.. I guess my real question is if this dog had attacked a person in the street and put them into hospital then most likely, in Australia, this dog would be euthanased by the council etc.. This would be regardless of the diagnosis of aggression as dominant/fearful/maternal etc.. I understand the risks an employee at a vets must undertake etc.. But, if this is a case of purely maternal aggression and given the human injuries does that effectively give this dog an 'excuse' for being aggressive?? What if this dog attacked a child while in the vet car park? I am a little confused. Does maternal aggression give a dog an excuse to attack a human? (I do understand that I have not fully researched the dog with a behavioural consultation and attained a proper diagnosis and I can only go on what the owners 'say' and that the dog has not been aggressive before). Regards Lewis --- Andy Beck wrote: > Great Dane bitches do seem to be prone to be > aggressive while nursing pups - > at least those that I have owned were - and visitors > needed to be kept well > away while the pups were young. My feeling is that > the owners are > responsible for putting the bitch in a situation so > outside her reasonable > comfort zone that she was caused to make a bad > judgement. I'm not at all > clear how natural justice is served in any sense by > killing the bitch for > the owners misjudgement. > How about re-education of the owners? > > Regards > Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lewis Kirkham > [mailto:lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au] > Sent: Wednesday, 16 April 2003 7:42 p.m. > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: A question. > > > G'day everyone, > I am a small animal veterinarian from Australia. > Yesterday at one of the practices I work at (I was > not > working at the time thankfully) one of the vet > nurses > was severely savaged on the arm by a Great Dane. She > was put into hospital etc.. This happened in the > waiting room when she was just offering the dog a > treat after patting it. > The Great Dane had just had pups and despite the > owners being told to leave the pups at home and > bring > the bitch on her own the owners still brought the > pups > along. To me this appears to be a case of maternal > aggression. The owners claim that the dog has had no > aggressive tendencies previously and just commenced > with the birth of the pups. My veterinary colleague > has previously examined the dog (before she was > pregnant) and says that the owners did seem to hold > the head of the dog rather firmly when he was > examining it - possibly they know more than they are > saying??? > My question is should this dog be euthanased on the > grounds of aggression? and attacking a person? My > veterinary colleague (the one on duty that day) is > of > the opinion that she should be euthanased (after > weaning the pups). I would think that it is > difficult > to say - she should at least be neutered in my > opinion. > I would be interested in any thoughts/comments. > Thanks > Regards > Lewis Kirkham BVSc MRCVS > Veterinarian > PS the nurse is at home now and doing ok. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile > - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra > or Vodafone mobile. > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From: IN%"lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Lewis=20Kirkham?=" 16-APR-2003 20:24:14.12 To: IN%"brander@dial.pipex.com" "Donna Brander", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology group" CC: Subj: RE: maternal aggression Dear Ms Brander, Thank you for your prompt reply and sound words of advice - much appreciated. I realise a behaviour consult is required but tensions between veterinarian and owners are a little 'tense' at the moment. If it is a diagnosis of maternal aggression does this give the dog a plausible excuse to be aggressive to humans? Do you think 'respect' for humans should over- ride this response to protect pups? I am sorry if I use incorrect or emotive terminology. Thanks again. Lewis Kirkham --- Donna Brander wrote: > Mr. Kirkham, > This letter was forwarded to me. I am the small > animal behaviourist at the University of Edinburgh. > Maternal aggression is a well known behaviour in > dogs. Even very friendly dogs can and do become > aggressive when they have puppies. I do not know if > this is all that is wrong with this dog as she may > have had aggressive tendencies prior to having the > puppies. > What this dog does need is a behaviour consultation > with a reputable behaviourist to assess exactly what > the problem is. It is probably a good idea to > neuter following the weaning of the puppies. If > this is maternal aggression, it is hormonally driven > and she may have problems around other times she is > in season. > Euthanising would not be a first line of response > because she was aggressive when she was with her > puppies. Have a good assessment of the bitch once > her puppies are weaned and gone. At the same time, > speak to the owners and see if you can find out if > this behaviour is unprecedented or does she have a > history of aggression towards people. > Hope this helps. > Donna Brander > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From: IN%"lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Lewis=20Kirkham?=" 16-APR-2003 20:31:25.20 To: IN%"hmcmurra@elp.rr.com" "heather mcmurray", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology group" CC: Subj: RE: A question. Dear Heather, Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your point. Washing hands between animals, muzzling every bitch with puppies at a vet surgery etc.. is sound advice. Where does that leave the person in the street or the vet car park? Especially as these owners did not follow our instructions of bringing the bitch in separately from the pups in the first place? Thanks again Lewis Kirkham --- heather mcmurray wrote: > let's see, a mother dog is in a strange place with > other animal scents, WITH > her puppies, and bites someone who approaches her- > close enough to touch her > head, and a vet wants to EUTHANIZE her??? > > Maybe the owner should be cited for not putting a > muzzle on her ( like the > owner of a great dane I met at my local vets -- it > was a soft, comfortable > thing that let the dog open its mouth but not bite) > when she would be > protective of puppies. > > But I don't think that she should be euthanized, or > even neutered. Muzzled > when pregnant or nursing maybe. > > Had the vet nurse washed her hands and arms after > handling the previous > case? When she got close to the Great Dane it is > very likely that the > mother dog smelled other animals very clearly from > the vet nurse. > > > H.mcmurray > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lewis Kirkham" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 1:42 AM > Subject: A question. > > > > G'day everyone, > > I am a small animal veterinarian from Australia. > > Yesterday at one of the practices I work at (I was > not > > working at the time thankfully) one of the vet > nurses > > was severely savaged on the arm by a Great Dane. > She > > was put into hospital etc.. This happened in the > > waiting room when she was just offering the dog a > > treat after patting it. > > The Great Dane had just had pups and despite the > > owners being told to leave the pups at home and > bring > > the bitch on her own the owners still brought the > pups > > along. To me this appears to be a case of maternal > > aggression. The owners claim that the dog has had > no > > aggressive tendencies previously and just > commenced > > with the birth of the pups. My veterinary > colleague > > has previously examined the dog (before she was > > pregnant) and says that the owners did seem to > hold > > the head of the dog rather firmly when he was > > examining it - possibly they know more than they > are > > saying??? > > My question is should this dog be euthanased on > the > > grounds of aggression? and attacking a person? My > > veterinary colleague (the one on duty that day) is > of > > the opinion that she should be euthanased (after > > weaning the pups). I would think that it is > difficult > > to say - she should at least be neutered in my > > opinion. > > I would be interested in any thoughts/comments. > > Thanks > > Regards > > Lewis Kirkham BVSc MRCVS > > Veterinarian > > PS the nurse is at home now and doing ok. > > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile > > - Check & compose your email via SMS on your > Telstra or Vodafone mobile. > > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From: IN%"canine.education@bigpond.com.au" "Canine Education and Behaviour Research" 16-APR-2003 21:18:42.25 To: IN%"lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au" "Lewis Kirkham" CC: IN%">" Subj: RE: A question. Hi Lewis But the bitch did not and thus far has not attacked a person in the street or the carpark. This opens the can of worms of do we destroy a dog based on potential for harm, in which case that's just about every dog in the world. This is the flawed logic being banning breeds and not simply punishing the deeds of individuals. Mate wouldn't the best solution be to wait until the pups are weaned and the bitch is not lactating and then test the bitch for aggressive responses to a variety of stimuli? Yes an incidence of maternal aggression would warrant such an investigation and thus I do applaud your concern. Subject to what state your in I'm quite prepared to do such testing at no cost if you desire. Regards Iain Macdonald "Canine Education and Behavioural Research" Sth Gippsland Hwy Lang Lang Victoria Australia 3984 Phone: (61) 3 59975575 Mobile: 0419205120 ICQ: 165558291 canine.education@bigpond.com.au rrenroc@bigpond.com.au From: IN%"espinay@bigpond.com" "Tracy" 16-APR-2003 21:48:05.56 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology group" CC: Subj: RE: maternal aggression << If it is a diagnosis of maternal aggression does this give the dog a plausible excuse to be aggressive to humans? Do you think 'respect' for humans should over-ride this response to protect pups?>> Lewis Kirkham I guess my response to this would be to post the question why should a dog respect humans? A dog, afterall isn't human and comes with its own separate set of values and behaviours. A lot of the dog problems in our modern society IMO come directly from the placement of unfair and unachievable expectations on dogs. We want them to react with benevolence no matter what the situation and then feel betrayed when dogs act like dogs. Take for example the case a few years ago of a pomeranian killing a 6 week old baby. A betrayal of the 'respect' it should give to humans, or a dog seeing a small squealing animal and acting on instinct? There are many other cases out there we could use as examples. For a dog protecting its pups (or itself) in a strange environment where it feels threatened and insecure and can not escape the situation (and where a strange person has perhaps not heeded more subtle warnings) would to me be a very natural response. It may not be accepted according to some human ideals, but it is the dog acting in a natural way to repel what it percieves as a threat. To be honest, even without the presence of pups in certain circumstances I could see why it would happen. There are no 'excuses' - rather reasons. I do know where you are coming from profession-wise. I run a grooming business where there is a constant need to get up close an personal with dogs who often don't want to and will tell you so. Being in a strange situation with a strange person trying to invade their space and not being able to retreat often leaves only one response. Without flight they are left with fight. Understanding what the dog is 'saying' (before it resorts to biting) and managing the risk by modifying our own behaviour (and using other tools such as a muzzle if necessary) goes a long way towards making things more safe and more comfortable for all parties. That said, one of the risks of the job when working up close and personal with dogs is that a bite may happen. The examination of current risk management protocols would be IMO more useful than blaming the dog for acting instinctually in a way 'not acceptable' to humans. JMHO Tracy Bassett Murrumbateman, Australia espinay@bigpond.com From: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz" 16-APR-2003 22:08:14.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A question. Hi Lewis - I think Iain has it covered - in my experience of Dane bitches the aggression level subsides somewhere around 6 weeks or so. Any expectation that respect for humans should outweigh defensive maternal instinct seems a long shot if the behavior is hormone driven. There are a large number of situations in which the owners of domestic animals must be responsible for doing the thinking given that the animal cannot reasonably be expected to have a reliable behavioral paradigm. If this was the first time the bitch had been moved with a litter of pups to a strange area filled with unfamiliar/potentially threatening stimuli then she had no option but to follow her instinct - if we killed everything that made a bad call on the basis of insufficient information in a novel setting my guess is that we could get very busy - and our teenagers would be in serious trouble! Ethically the responsibility must lie with the owners. I think Iain's offer to carry out an investigation cost free is pure magic. Regards Andy -----Original Message----- From: Canine Education and Behaviour Research [mailto:canine.education@bigpond.com.au] Sent: Thursday, 17 April 2003 3:22 p.m. To: Lewis Kirkham Cc: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: A question. Hi Lewis But the bitch did not and thus far has not attacked a person in the street or the carpark. This opens the can of worms of do we destroy a dog based on potential for harm, in which case that's just about every dog in the world. This is the flawed logic being banning breeds and not simply punishing the deeds of individuals. Mate wouldn't the best solution be to wait until the pups are weaned and the bitch is not lactating and then test the bitch for aggressive responses to a variety of stimuli? Yes an incidence of maternal aggression would warrant such an investigation and thus I do applaud your concern. Subject to what state your in I'm quite prepared to do such testing at no cost if you desire. Regards Iain Macdonald "Canine Education and Behavioural Research" Sth Gippsland Hwy Lang Lang Victoria Australia 3984 Phone: (61) 3 59975575 Mobile: 0419205120 ICQ: 165558291 canine.education@bigpond.com.au rrenroc@bigpond.com.au From: IN%"lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Lewis=20Kirkham?=" 16-APR-2003 22:47:57.93 To: IN%"JLGhmn8532@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology group" CC: Subj: RE: A question. Dear Jeff, Thanks for your comments. I agree she is just protecting her pups etc - maternal aggression. And the clinic has already refused to have the owners back - but this possibly just refers the dog to the vet down the road! Regards Lewis Kirkham --- JLGhmn8532@aol.com wrote: > There is no logical reason to put the dog down. > Without actually being > there, I can only say the bitch appears to be > protecting her pups or at least > her 'pack.' > > Don't you agree? > > Clearly though, it also appears that the owners > aren't telling the whole > story about the bitch's temperament. The vet needs > to do some research and > place responsibility on the owners for the dog's > behavior. Although, the dog > shows to be acting on her innate behavior. > > Again, I wholeheartedly disagree that the dog should > be put down. After all, > the vet should realize certain 'hazards' about the > job. If necessary, muzzle > the dog prior to any veterinary care procedures, and > next time refuse to see > the dog if the owners can't follow simple directions > regarding leaving the > pups at home. > > Jeff Gehman, BS, DDH > Houston, TX > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From: IN%"lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Lewis=20Kirkham?=" 16-APR-2003 23:03:55.18 To: IN%"canine.education@bigpond.com.au" "Canine Education and Behaviour Research", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology group" CC: Subj: RE: A question. Dear Iain, Thanks for your comments. A experienced vet is very well versed in assessing aggressive signs in dogs and had this been seen during a consultation it would have been noted on the history. I guess the point about the owners holding the head strongly is more that they may believe that the dog will behave in a particular way. It is interesting that you don't think maternal aggression is a character flaw. I am still learning but what distinguishes this aggression from territorial aggression, food aggression or even dominance aggression when it comes to character flaws? If protecting her pups is a 'natural function' affected by hormones then are other types of aggression also 'natural functions' because of the neurochemicals/hormones in a dogs brain? I am a little confused as to why one type of aggression is considered serious but another considered understandable? Thanks for taking the time to reply Regards Lewis Kirkham --- Canine Education and Behaviour Research wrote: > Hi > > I can't quite understand why you would want to > either Spey or put down a > bitch when you (and I concur with your opinion) > believe it to be maternal > aggression. If the bitch has been to the clinic > before and has shown no > aggression on these visits (holding the head firmly > won't prevent you from > seeing and hearing aggressive intent) Hormones are > the most likely reason. > Surely education of the owners as suggested > previously is the way to go. I > cannot believe that such a natural function of > protecting her pups could or > indeed should result in the bitch's death. Re > speying, that's a choice for > the owners either act responsibly with the bitch > when she is in whelp (as > maternal aggression cannot be possibly considered to > be a character flaw) or > don't breed from her again. > > Regards > > Iain Macdonald > "Canine Education and Behavioural Research" > Sth Gippsland Hwy > Lang Lang Victoria Australia 3984 > Phone: (61) 3 59975575 > Mobile: 0419205120 > ICQ: 165558291 > canine.education@bigpond.com.au > rrenroc@bigpond.com.au > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lewis Kirkham" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 5:42 PM > Subject: A question. > > > > G'day everyone, > > I am a small animal veterinarian from Australia. > > Yesterday at one of the practices I work at (I was > not > > working at the time thankfully) one of the vet > nurses > > was severely savaged on the arm by a Great Dane. > She > > was put into hospital etc.. This happened in the > > waiting room when she was just offering the dog a > > treat after patting it. > > The Great Dane had just had pups and despite the > > owners being told to leave the pups at home and > bring > > the bitch on her own the owners still brought the > pups > > along. To me this appears to be a case of maternal > > aggression. The owners claim that the dog has had > no > > aggressive tendencies previously and just > commenced > > with the birth of the pups. My veterinary > colleague > > has previously examined the dog (before she was > > pregnant) and says that the owners did seem to > hold > > the head of the dog rather firmly when he was > > examining it - possibly they know more than they > are > > saying??? > > My question is should this dog be euthanased on > the > > grounds of aggression? and attacking a person? My > > veterinary colleague (the one on duty that day) is > of > > the opinion that she should be euthanased (after > > weaning the pups). I would think that it is > difficult > > to say - she should at least be neutered in my > > opinion. > > I would be interested in any thoughts/comments. > > Thanks > > Regards > > Lewis Kirkham BVSc MRCVS > > Veterinarian > > PS the nurse is at home now and doing ok. > > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile > > - Check & compose your email via SMS on your > Telstra or Vodafone mobile. > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From: IN%"lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Lewis=20Kirkham?=" 16-APR-2003 23:23:44.58 To: IN%"mad@nofeardavis.org" "Maren Plagens", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology group" CC: Subj: RE: A question. Dear Maren, Thanks for your reply. I agree owner training is very important. As for submissive stances of people etc.. I would have thought maternal aggression would manifest regardless of any posture? Anything that comes between the bitch and her pups would provoke the aggression, I would have thought. She didn't actually handle the pups at all before being bitten. I don't know about the dogs history and behaviour with regards to pampering and dominance etc - sorry. It does seem that aggressive bitches may sometimes lead to a more aggressive puppy.(BSAVA Manual of Canine and Feline Behavioural Medicine, 2002). Thanks for your thoughts regards Lewis Kirkham --- Maren Plagens wrote: > I have been in dog training and behavior for quite > some time. In my > experience if a bitch is maternally aggressive, at > least that severely, > then she is aggressive. Now I am not advocating > putting this dog down at > all. I am recommending that the owners learn how to > properly handle > their dog! That they assume responsibility for her > actions. Perhaps even > work with a trainer that specializes in aggressive > behavior. > I would also like to point out that the worker did > not get bit after or > during handling of babies! She got bit after feeding > a treat (a > submissive gesture) probably with very submissive > body language, that is > the natural way we feed treats, then she patted her > on the head, a very > dominate move. Now I don't have all the details but > my guess would be > that she is a very dominant dog and that combined > with raging hormones > is enough to send anyone to the hospital that > crossed her. > I would also like to point out a little more about > why I am making this > guess. Holding the head a little tight during exams. > That is likely to > increase aggressive reactions given half a chance. > She feels the owner’s > insecurity but would attribute it to the vet’s > office, or the vet, > (depending of how she generalizes) not to herself. I > imagine that she is > extremely pampered and rarely has to do anything she > doesn't want to. > Increasing dominance over people. > I know that I am making a lot of assumptions > (something we should never > do) and so I could be completely wrong if a few > details were added or > changed. > > I just cannot remember the number of times when > working with aggressive > puppies I would ask the owners of the puppy, "did > you meet the mother, > did she show signs of aggression?" the answer was > always, "no, she was > just a little gaurdy of her babies" or, "we did not > meet her because the > owner said she was too protective of her babies" > Also in my experience if a dog is "possessive > aggressive" of her puppies > it is also likely that she will be possessive > aggressive with the owner, > which people like to call protective when it is in > fact guarding, but > keep in mind it is possession guarding not owner > guarding. A significant > distinction. > The hormone change a bitch goes through undoubtedly > changes her behavior > but it does not alter who she is. I would watch > carefully the behavior > of those puppies if possible and report back how > many have "behavior > problems" in 10 weeks. Biting, growling, possession > aggression etc. > I do think that the bitch should be spayed. I would > never recommend > anyone get a puppy from a bitch that has displayed > such aggression. In > fact if someone asked me for advise on choosing a > puppy I would steer > him or her far away from any puppy that you couldn't > handle in front of > the mother! > Whether you are a nature or nurture believer, those > puppies have > everything against them. Aggressive nature of the > mother and nurture is > worse because during their most impressionable time, > she is at her > absolute worst! > I have met countless numbers of nursing females. I > will admit never a > Great Dane, but Rottweilers, American Saffordshire > Terriers, Pit Bull > Terriers, Doberman Pincers, Presa Canarios, all the > way down to > Chihuahuas. My favorite breeds are large working > breeds, the ones > "known" for aggressive behavior. And I could lay > down with pups and > cuddle with moms standing over me. Handle them, give > shots, roll them > over on their backs and stress them, making them cry > out. > I will hold by my opinion that nursing is not a good > enough reason to > justify aggression! Especially that severe! > > Maren Plagens > > > Canine Education and Behaviour Research wrote: > > >Hi > > > >I can't quite understand why you would want to > either Spey or put down a > >bitch when you (and I concur with your opinion) > believe it to be maternal > >aggression. If the bitch has been to the clinic > before and has shown no > >aggression on these visits (holding the head firmly > won't prevent you from > >seeing and hearing aggressive intent) Hormones are > the most likely reason. > >Surely education of the owners as suggested > previously is the way to go. I > >cannot believe that such a natural function of > protecting her pups could or > >indeed should result in the bitch's death. Re > speying, that's a choice for > >the owners either act responsibly with the bitch > when she is in whelp (as > >maternal aggression cannot be possibly considered > to be a character flaw) or > >don't breed from her again. > > > >Regards > > > >Iain Macdonald > >"Canine Education and Behavioural Research" > >Sth Gippsland Hwy > >Lang Lang Victoria Australia 3984 > >Phone: (61) 3 59975575 > >Mobile: 0419205120 > >ICQ: 165558291 > >canine.education@bigpond.com.au > >rrenroc@bigpond.com.au > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Lewis Kirkham" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 5:42 PM > >Subject: A question. > > > > > > > > > >>G'day everyone, > >>I am a small animal veterinarian from Australia. > >>Yesterday at one of the practices I work at (I was > not > >>working at the time thankfully) one of the vet > nurses > >>was severely savaged on the arm by a Great Dane. > She > >>was put into hospital etc.. This happened in the > >>waiting room when she was just offering the dog a > >>treat after patting it. > >>The Great Dane had just had pups and despite the > >>owners being told to leave the pups at home and > bring > >>the bitch on her own the owners still brought the > pups > >>along. To me this appears to be a case of maternal > >>aggression. The owners claim that the dog has had > no > >>aggressive tendencies previously and just > commenced > >>with the birth of the pups. My veterinary > colleague > >>has previously examined the dog (before she was > >>pregnant) and says that the owners did seem to > hold > >>the head of the dog rather firmly when he was > >>examining it - possibly they know more than they > are > >>saying??? > >>My question is should this dog be euthanased on > the > >>grounds of aggression? and attacking a person? My > >>veterinary colleague (the one on duty that day) is > of > >>the opinion that she should be euthanased (after > >>weaning the pups). I would think that it is > difficult > >>to say - she should at least be neutered in my > >>opinion. > >>I would be interested in any thoughts/comments. > >>Thanks > >>Regards > >>Lewis Kirkham BVSc MRCVS > >>Veterinarian > >>PS the nurse is at home now and doing ok. > >> > === message truncated === http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From: IN%"canine.education@bigpond.com.au" "Canine Education and Behaviour Research" 16-APR-2003 23:54:27.34 To: IN%"lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au" "Lewis Kirkham" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: A question. Hi Lewis Re your question on why maternal aggression is not seen as a character flaw, I wouldn't consider any of the types of aggression you list to be character flaws provided the response is appropriate to the situation. I and many thousands like me want out dogs to display territorial aggression when someone attempts to enter my property, I have no quam with a dog displaying aggression when another dog try to take its food, and finally dominance aggression now that's one which will really stimulate a bit of discussion. True dominance aggression is in my opinion very rare, it has become a catch cry for any type of aggression and in many behaviourist circles even the term dominance is considered to be incorrect (can't say I personally hold to that one). In short if you have a dominance aggressive dog your the wrong owner for that dog, if this is correct then is it actually the dog which is at fault?? Let me be very plain, in my opinion and experience aggression is a natural and normal form of expression in all Mammals. In most cases such displays of aggression are ritualised (particularly in the dog) so we have usually ample warning of impending danger regardless of the cause and provided the display is heeded the animals reaction will not escalate. Now if you have a neurotic animal (or psychotic) you have a whole different ball game and then yes putting the animal down is entirely appropriate, especially if the owners are abdicating their responsibilities. But should the question not be moved from one of is aggression as an emotive response a capital offence to a more rational one of is the dogs reaction Normal, neurotic or psychotic. Regards Iain Macdonald "Canine Education and Behavioural Research" Sth Gippsland Hwy Lang Lang Victoria Australia 3984 Phone: (61) 3 59975575 Mobile: 0419205120 ICQ: 165558291 canine.education@bigpond.com.au rrenroc@bigpond.com.au From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen MRCVS" 17-APR-2003 01:38:23.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A question. Hi Lewis, it seems to me that there are three problems here: 1. Explanation of the current incident and what it means for the dog's 'character' 2. The predicted future risk the dog presents. 3. The relationship between the practice and the client. I would agree with the others that circumstances dictate what is 'normal' and whether it represents a defect in the animal's nature. A bitch that is loaded up with Prolacin, is in a stressful environment [not least because she has been taken from home to the clinic where there are unfamiliar or untrusted people] and has her puppies with her would seem to be under a lot of pressure to act in ways that were not familiar to the owner. I would not expect the owner to anticipate this level of risk. The vet, however, ought to have had a good idea that this was a potentially sensitive situation, regardless of the bitch's normal temperament. In the UK, any injuries to staff or clients while they are in the clinic would be the automatic responsibility of the practice. I have seen a number of cases in which Prolactin or FSH levels have had a very profound effect on the dog's behaviour, altering it way beyond 'normal' for that dog. So, I would not regard a dog with aggression in this situation as unusual, and I think Iain's offer of assessment is the sensible way forward. There are many issues here, including the dog's response to travel to the clinic and her previous reaction to being at the vet clinic. Lots of dogs are inhibited and non-aggressive at the clinic but that does not mean that they are in any way 'happy' to be there. unfortunately we rarely recognise this. Risk for the future is something we have been discussing for a while and this is a good example of the kind of situation in which an assessment scheme would be useful. The situation could have been worse had the dog attacked a child in the car park, but a proper understanding of the motivating factors in this case would be a good way to confirm or rule out this possibility. There is no immediate reason to assume that the dog would have attacked anyone in the car park. Aggression in one context and set of circumstances does not automatically transfer to others. If the dog's behaviour is hormonally related then neutering, treatment [if appropriate] with Cabergoline and behavioural assessment and therapy would be a good way to reduce risk. For the ime being the dog shoudl be muzzled while in a public place and the owners should excercise good control over her. Training the owners, and any others who come in contact with this dog, to recognise the more subtle signs of fear and anxiety would be important. The relationship between the practice and client is paramount, and the only way to sort this out is for the practice to recognise that what happened was very unfortunate, but part of the daily risk of working in a vet clinic. In the UK, the practice would have to accept reponsibility for what happened, even if the owners were doing something really stupid. The courts would say that we should have been in a position of sufficient knowldge and authority to be in control of what happened. If a behaviorual assessment is arranged for this dog then this would help to settole the situation and clear the tension between the practice and the client. IMHO this case has nothing at all to do with the bitch being 'dominant'!!! Jon From: IN%"mad@nofeardavis.org" "Maren Plagens" 17-APR-2003 05:36:36.13 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: A question. Iain, You do bring up many wonderful points. Especially about dominant gestures given while offering treats. Tracy also brings up the same good points. I guess I had in my mind several things, picturing what happened and I don't have the information supplied to allow some of the conclusions I made. So I do agree with most what Iain says. I wrote more on perceptions than facts. I was taught early in my career that aggression is wrong in any situation, aside from when a dog is appropriately trained for that purpose, for instance a police dog. I will admit there are times that I *wish* a dog would attack, an example being he is being abused. But when I make the statement that aggression is unacceptable I am assuming that the dog is in the average pet dog home. For instance my dogs are expected to not bite in any situation. Not if someone steps on his tail, not if someone kicks, not if I give a shot, not if my niece pokes him in the eye or takes his food. NEVER! But I am also know that my dogs do have a bite threshold, every dog does. Pain, fear, but it is my responsibility, not anyone else’s, to be aware of my dogs behavior and intervene and be in control in those situations. In the example of the dog that is maternally aggressive for a few days, or even the first couple of weeks, I agree learning is not an issue but I was referring to the aggression lasting the entire nursing period. Again where I was not clear of my meaning... I am also in animal shelter work and so have a very low tolerance for aggression. This is where I differ from most in my opinion from most that deal with dogs. As much as I love dogs and hate to ask them to abandon their nature (guarding, protecting themselves) in many situations that is exactly what I expect. Part of that is because I see too many people hurt, physically and mentally because of expectations for a dog. But the worst is what happens to the animal when it can not deal with those expectations. They are abandoned, abused, euthanized, left in the yard without human contact. I would rather we could educate EVERYONE and allow a dog to be a dog. But since that is not possible (I'm still trying) I expect the dogs I adopt out, or the dogs I train to live up to these expectations (at least after training is done) I understand that I am the Midwest (USA) and we have a long way to go to teach people how to be responsible but that is my main goal! Now to get off my soap box, and am glad to have some responses to my post. I love hearing from people and knowing that others pay more attention to what I am saying than I do sometimes. This list is an incredible resource! Maren Plagens Canine Education and Behaviour Research wrote: > In response to Marens post > > I cannot agree with you that the bitch is INAPPROPRIATELY aggressive in a > general manner. Aggression was one of the many things that breed required > when it was first designed. To my way of thinking the bitch has in this > instance reacted appropriately if you consider her perception, she had > only > recently whelped then her and her puppies are bundled off to a vet > surgery > where there was no doubt other dogs, all sound really stressful to me. > > Re the nurse would have been in a submissive position to give the > treat. I > have a major problem with that one, most people actually assume a > dominant > position when feeding a dog a treat, they are usually directly front > on to > the dog, they usually bend over the top of the dog and the frequently > have > the arm holding the treat descending from above the dog. We have no > information other than the nurse was bitten on the arm as to her > position, > considering the sheer size of a Dane I would assume, and its only an > assumption, she was standing which is not likely to have been as > suggested a > submissive position. I am not in any way addressing the competency of the > nurse, I don't know her or how she reacts around dogs, the above comments > are a generalisation of how people at large approach a dog. > > You also mention that in your opinion the bitch is obviously dominant, > is it > not also possible that the bitch is fearful? > > One point I really want to make is dogs will be aggressive at times, > what we > actually need to be asking is if it was appropriate or not, a position > which > we must look at, as best as possible, from the dogs point of view. The > paradox is that this is one of the very reasons we actually keep them and > yet to mention that a dog reacted to a situation with aggression its very > life is called into question unless such an action involves the > protection > of their handler (even then it can be touch and go). I still say the > fault > is with the owners, they failed to follow instructions given, they > failed to > effectively control their dog and more importantly failed to read > their dogs > intentions and as the dog does not have a history of aggressive > behaviour I > can't draw the conclusion that this situation is indicative of the dogs > general behaviour. > > Re bitches which show maternal aggression passing on aggression per > say, One > of my Malinois bitches is aggressive when she has pups, her daughter > recently had a litter and is the exact opposite, she appears to enjoy > every > one coming and looking at her pups. We as humans can and often do take > liberties which we wouldn't with other species when it comes to the dog. > With regards to what the pups are learning from their mother and > during the > time it is happening again we disagree, the above mentioned Malinois was > particularly aggressive for the first two days and this lessened after > that, > pups only have two of their senses working at this stage, touch and > smell, > thus the learning of an aggressive response is highly unlikely unless it > (the bitches response) continued post 3 weeks. This again is a factor we > know nothing about with regards to this bitch. > > I can see we will have to agree to disagree on this one as apart from a > single incident there has been no evidence provided that the dog is > dominant > or aggressive in its nature. But I do also add you may be correct if > other > evidence is supplied about the bitch in general which supports your > position, information we simply don't have at present. > > Regards > > Iain Macdonald > "Canine Education and Behavioural Research" > Sth Gippsland Hwy > Lang Lang Victoria Australia 3984 > Phone: (61) 3 59975575 > Mobile: 0419205120 > ICQ: 165558291 > canine.education@bigpond.com.au > rrenroc@bigpond.com.au > > > > From: IN%"sjackson@soton.ac.uk" 17-APR-2003 07:56:39.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: source location via olfaction Hi everyone, I am looking into source location using olfaction. Most of the papers I have come across are related to moths, lobsters and crabs. I was wondering if anyone can give me references relating to other animals. I am looking for as wide a range as possible to get a full cross section of the animal kingdom. Thanks Sara Jackson From: IN%"mappleby@hsus.org" "Michael Appleby" 17-APR-2003 08:06:54.18 To: IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: avoidance by cattle of contaminated pasture Carol Don Broom had a student looking at this when he was still at Reading. In relation to the question of whether TB can be transmitted between badgers and cattle, he was asking whether cows will avoid grass with badger urine or faeces on it. My memory is that of about 20 cows tested, 19 actively avoided the contaminated grass, but one actively favoured it. You can doubtless get more details from Don. Mike Michael C. Appleby (Dr) Vice-President Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture The Humane Society of the United States 2100 L Street, NW Washington, DC 20037, USA Switchboard 1 202 452 1100 Direct 1 301 258 3111 Fax 1 301 258 3081 Email mappleby@hsus.org -----Original Message----- From: Petherick, Carol [mailto:Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au] Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 6:54 PM To: Ethology (E-mail) Subject: avoidance by cattle of contaminated pasture All I have a colleague who is seeking information/references on whether cattle avoid grazing pasture that has urine and faeces on it - particularly from other species, and she's mainly interested in the cattle-macropod interaction, but will be happy to get any information. She has been told by farmers that macropods make large areas of pasture un-grazable for cattle, but wonders where the evidence is. She cannot find out if this assertion is because of the presence of urine and faeces, or some other reason (jumping on the pasture and flattening it?). She has found a few papers on cattle and species other than macropods, but these papers appear not to give information on how and why areas are avoided (in fact there's even doubt about whether they are). She would be very grateful if anybody is able to help out. Many thanks. Carol "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated" Mahatma Gandhi Carol Petherick Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Dept Primary Industries Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences (Beef) PO Box 6014 Central Qld Mail Centre N Rockhampton Queensland 4702 Australia ph: +61 (0)7 4936 0331 fax: +61 (0)7 4936 0390 e-mail: carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 17-APR-2003 08:26:49.46 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: avoidance by cattle of contaminated pasture I read in a book on human nutrition that dairy cattle will avoid grass that has been urinated on for quite awhile as the urine changes the pH of the grass. The cows' sense of smell tells them that nutrients will be locked up or that the grass itself will have a pH that interferes with calcium absorption. Perhaps the cow that sought out the grass with badger urine had a pH imbalance that would be corrected by those patches. Julie Alexander From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 17-APR-2003 11:23:44.79 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: types of aggression in dogs This link goes to an article on the use of Great Pyrenees against bears. Near the end of the article is a description of the temperament testing done by trainers of police dogs. They considered the dogs very unlikely to succeed. They were unable to test for different types of protective aggression in the LGD dogs compared to the traditional police service breeds they were used to. We think the experts are frequently wrong yet hold tightly to cherished paradigms. Temperament tests need to be adapted to the individual breeds. I heard from one breeder of sled dogs who reported a Rottweiler group failing sled dogs for refusing to walk over a collapsed lawn chair and not guarding the sled. Sled dogs should be wary of uncertain footing and were not selected to guard sleds. Apples and oranges. http://www.adbsys.no/nphk/1994_Pasvik_Forside.asp?Language=ENGLISH My husband and I have trained and bred Dobermans as family companions and protectors for 18 years. Due to the small gene pool and increasing health problems we started crossbreeding to get Doberman like dogs with better health. We are mavericks in many ways. For instance, too much reliance on 49 temperament testing of puppies. Our LGD's mature much later than our Dobermans or the Dobe hybrids. http://my.execpc.com/~crzy1ess/49daymyth.htm We disagree with many trainers about the meanings of some behaviors such as growling and raised hackles. We do not believe these are always signs of fear. They are signals, used frequently by adults to tell puppies to either go away or stop what they are doing. The adults are not fearful but annoyed. A soft growl or raised hackles when detecting an intruder will alert us or the other dogs to a potential threat but permit us all to listen when alarm barking would interfere with this. It also expends a lot more energy. A dog running at high speed towards an intruder with hackles raised, deep serious barks and a hard look is sending a strong go away signal plus alerting other social group members. Is this a sign of weakness or sensible behavior? We also raise our dogs in ways considered wrong by many experts. We raise them in groups after weaning and they are often at large with our adult dogs. This teaches them a lot about manners, respecting their elders including us and the playfighting and sometimes more serious squabbling teaches them how to use their bodies to fight in ways that helps when they do protection work. Many trainers/breeders separate the pups after weaning and don't let them play together with the idea that the pup must always win and to let them together weakens their potential as protection dogs. We find the opposite, that dogs raised in a mixed age and sex group learn how to stand up for themselves and dogs raised alone when permitted to play as adults can become avoidant when they find a dog who plays just as rough as they do. One bitch from a fine kennel raised alone intimidates a smaller bitch from the same kennel also raised alone when they play. The large bitch body slams the smaller one who soon decides this is not fun and avoids her. Both bitches became avoidant when playing with one of our males. He is very experienced in playing and courting our bitches. He came out and play bowed, both yipped and backed off. He had to roll on his back to entice them to come play. Our bitches when meeting a strange male who comes on too strong will snarl, bite him in the lip while glaring but will play bow in return to a male with social graces. I disagree with Maren's comments about dogs guarding owners as simply possession guarding. I would put it more in the category of defending members of a group considered 'family' by the dog. This is common in many species and considered part of survival traits, why in dogs is it labeled something else? A BBC article some time back described a boy in Africa who was lost and raised by monkeys. Several years later he was rescued whether he wanted to be or not. The monkeys tried to defend him from the humans who sought to catch him. Would this be considered simply possession guarding? Is a woman who defends her child simply guarding a possession? What of a man or woman who sees a stranger, adult or child, being assaulted and risks life and limb to help another? Is this acquisition of a possession? Or a species survival trait? Along the same vein, many protection dog trainers view a dog that is more assertive when the handler is being threatened than when the dog is threatened as weak, needing the support or presence of the handler. Again we disagree. In these days of law suits, a dog should only defend its handler or home and should back off otherwise. Many women and men will leave a threatening situation rather than fight--sensible--but will fight to the death to defend their child. Some of our dogs that are very protective of owners are not possessive of toys, bones, food or even the home when the owner is gone. The same dogs are well behaved in public, are handled without problem at the vet's and one is a mobility assistance dog. Bonding happens across species boundaries. Alerting and defending the group or offspring is a species survival behavior. Mares will stand over foals and keep inquisitive horses away. And also do the same for humans who fall down and a friend whose dog was injured was protected the same way by a mare. Triggered perhaps by the sight of a familiar being on the ground? Would the mare do the same for a stranger? What of the lioness who attempted to adopt several antelope babies and was very distressed when they died? Maternal bonding of another species or possessiveness? There is so much we don't know. Putting labels on behaviors is a handy shortcut to predicting behavior but also can interfere with deeper understanding. Julie Alexander http://talismandogs.homestead.com From: IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" "Donald Broom" 17-APR-2003 12:46:51.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cattle grazing/contamination Dear Carol et al Here are some references to work we did. I can supply reprints if you need them. Best wishes Don Broom 6. Pain, B.F. Leaver, J.D. and Broom, D.M. 1974 Effects of cow slurry on herbage production, intake by cattle and grazing behaviour. J.Br. Grassld. Soc., 29, 85-91. 9. Broom, D.M. Pain, B.F. and Leaver, J.D. 1975 The effects of slurry on the acceptability of swards to grazing cattle. J. agric. Sci., 85, 331-336. 13. Pain, B.F. and Broom, D.M. 1976 Spreading slurry and the acceptability of swards to cattle. Norgrass, 17, 21-23. 25. Pain, B.F. and Broom, D.M. 1978. The effects of injected and surface spread slurry on the intake and grazing behaviour of dairy cows. Anim Prod., 26, 75-83. 93. Benham, P.F.J. and Broom, D.M. 1989. Interactions between cattle and badgers at pasture with reference to bovine tuberculosis transmission. Br. vet. J., 145, 226-241. 121. Benham, P.F.J. and Broom, D.M. 1991. Responses of dairy cows to badger urine and faeces on pasture with reference to bovine tuberculosis transmission. Br. Vet. J., 147, 517-532. Also reviews in Broom, D.M. 1981. Biology of Behaviour. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 320pp. Fraser, A.F. and Broom, D.M. 1990. Farm Animal Behaviour and Welfare (pp.437). Wallingford : CAB International. -- Professor Donald M. Broom Colleen Macleod Professor of Animal Welfare President Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine St Catharine's College University of Cambridge Cambridge CB2 1RL CAMBRIDGE CB3 0ES U.K. U.K. Telephone 0044 (0)1223 337697 (0)1223 338344 Fax 0044 (0)1223 337610 e-mail (secretary) ga207@cam.ac.uk From: IN%"cchadwick@spca.bc.ca" "Christa Chadwick" 17-APR-2003 15:00:31.84 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction and Question Hello! I work for the BC SPCA, in the animal welfare department. I'm new to the list, and am looking forward to participating, and learning. To start off my participation in this list, I'm looking for some help from the experts out there...Here's the situation: The dog in question is a 4 yr. old, neutered male Rottweiler He was given to a woman, through a free-to-good home ad in the local newspaper. 24 hours after she took ownership, the new owner took the dog to the park with her 5 yr. old daughter. This woman had owned 3 Rottweilers previously, and all had lived to approx. 13 yrs. of age. While running with her mother, and with the dog on-leash, the 5 yr. old daughter fell down The dog jumped on the daughter, and started biting her legs while the girl remained on the ground. Mom was unable to remove the dog from her daughter's legs A bystander approached and helped Mom remove the dog from the girl The bystander called the police and the ambulance The police took the dog to the local SPCA Mom stated that she counted 10 bite marks to her daughter's legs (we have photographs of the bites - there are definitely numerous bites, including punctures, and heavy bruising) It is important to note that we have no previous history on this dog. We have attempted to contact the previous owner, but his phone number is no longer in service. We're wondering what would any of you would do with a case like this? Would this dog require life-long management or would a total 'recovery' be possible, after treatment? What kind of treatment would be suggested? Would drug therapy be involved? Do any of you have a sense of what the chances might be that this dog would 'fall back into' this type of aggression? What type of aggression would you classify this as? Thanks for any help you might be able to offer... Sincerely Christa Chadwick From: IN%"noofies@tir.com" "Nancy" 17-APR-2003 15:28:58.63 To: IN%"cchadwick@spca.bc.ca" "Christa Chadwick", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction and Question BlankI'm not an ethologist, I rescue dogs. What I would do with a case like this is drive him to McDonalds for a cheeseburger on the way to the vet's office to be euthanized. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: Christa Chadwick To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 4:56 PM Subject: Introduction and Question Hello! I work for the BC SPCA, in the animal welfare department. I'm new to the list, and am looking forward to participating, and learning. To start off my participation in this list, I'm looking for some help from the experts out there...Here's the situation: The dog in question is a 4 yr. old, neutered male Rottweiler He was given to a woman, through a free-to-good home ad in the local newspaper. 24 hours after she took ownership, the new owner took the dog to the park with her 5 yr. old daughter. This woman had owned 3 Rottweilers previously, and all had lived to approx. 13 yrs. of age. While running with her mother, and with the dog on-leash, the 5 yr. old daughter fell down The dog jumped on the daughter, and started biting her legs while the girl remained on the ground. Mom was unable to remove the dog from her daughter's legs A bystander approached and helped Mom remove the dog from the girl The bystander called the police and the ambulance The police took the dog to the local SPCA Mom stated that she counted 10 bite marks to her daughter's legs (we have photographs of the bites - there are definitely numerous bites, including punctures, and heavy bruising) It is important to note that we have no previous history on this dog. We have attempted to contact the previous owner, but his phone number is no longer in service. We're wondering what would any of you would do with a case like this? Would this dog require life-long management or would a total 'recovery' be possible, after treatment? What kind of treatment would be suggested? Would drug therapy be involved? Do any of you have a sense of what the chances might be that this dog would 'fall back into' this type of aggression? What type of aggression would you classify this as? Thanks for any help you might be able to offer... Sincerely Christa Chadwick From: IN%"coria75@neuroetologia.net" 17-APR-2003 16:06:01.12 To: IN%"cchadwick@spca.bc.ca" "Christa Chadwick", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction and Question Hi Christa: It seems to be a type of predatory aggression. I think this is the more difficult type of aggression to be solved, since the problem perhaps started since it was a puppy, with a lack of socialization with kids. unless given in adoption to somebody with no kids and capable to command it, I would suggest to put down this dog. Genaro Coria, MVZ M en Neuroetologia Center for Studies in Behavioral Neurobiology (CSBN)Department of Psychology Concordia University. Montreal, QC. Canada From: IN%"robin@coape.co.uk" 17-APR-2003 17:11:04.61 To: IN%"cchadwick@spca.bc.ca" "'Christa Chadwick'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction and Question What to do? This is indeed the question. I am intrigued by the mechanisms of the mishap. Falling down in a dog pen is a notorious trigger for a mass attack on a familiar handler or family member. If this was a predatory attack triggered by the startling/alarming/novel (for the dog) behaviour of the child it is nothing new. A question of some importance is "did the child cry out when she fell?". Cases reported in the British Press over the last 40 years are worth recalling. An elderly woman is Surrey was killed by her small pack of Golden Retrievers having emitted a loud sneeze. An eleven year-old girl on a walk with a friend of the same age was killed by the friend's family Rottweiler. Whilst out with the 2 dogs and her companion the girl squatted to urinate in the grass. One dog rushed up to investigate and jumped up to lick the girl's face. She shrieked as girls do. The dog instantly attacked and tore out her throat. Two teenage girls baby-minding in company with a Rotweiler bitch were suddenly attacked by the dog and fled into a bathroom. A male and a female police officer called to the scene became embroiled in a desperate battle with the dog which was throttled to death in by means of a baton "Spanish windlassed" through its collar. I wonder what the girls were doing and how much shrieking might have occurred before its continuance alerted the neighbours? What part might the "shriek" have in triggering the attack? What might be avoided in the future (if there is one) to avoid repetition? Risk assessment is the pressing need. (I would avoid "Prozak" as a quick fix) Robin -----Original Message----- From: Christa Chadwick [mailto:cchadwick@spca.bc.ca] Sent: 17 April 2003 21:57 To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Introduction and Question Hello! I work for the BC SPCA, in the animal welfare department. I'm new to the list, and am looking forward to participating, and learning. To start off my participation in this list, I'm looking for some help from the experts out there...Here's the situation: The dog in question is a 4 yr. old, neutered male Rottweiler He was given to a woman, through a free-to-good home ad in the local newspaper. 24 hours after she took ownership, the new owner took the dog to the park with her 5 yr. old daughter. This woman had owned 3 Rottweilers previously, and all had lived to approx. 13 yrs. of age. While running with her mother, and with the dog on-leash, the 5 yr. old daughter fell down The dog jumped on the daughter, and started biting her legs while the girl remained on the ground. Mom was unable to remove the dog from her daughter's legs A bystander approached and helped Mom remove the dog from the girl The bystander called the police and the ambulance The police took the dog to the local SPCA Mom stated that she counted 10 bite marks to her daughter's legs (we have photographs of the bites - there are definitely numerous bites, including punctures, and heavy bruising) It is important to note that we have no previous history on this dog. We have attempted to contact the previous owner, but his phone number is no longer in service. We're wondering what would any of you would do with a case like this? Would this dog require life-long management or would a total 'recovery' be possible, after treatment? What kind of treatment would be suggested? Would drug therapy be involved? Do any of you have a sense of what the chances might be that this dog would 'fall back into' this type of aggression? What type of aggression would you classify this as? Thanks for any help you might be able to offer... Sincerely Christa Chadwick From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 17-APR-2003 17:37:56.24 To: IN%"cchadwick@spca.bc.ca" "Christa Chadwick", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction and Question BlankSadly there are several humans at fault here and the dog will = probably pay with his life. Much less the physical and mental damage to = the child and the guilt of her mother.=20 First the breeder. The dog may be a genetically poor dog or a fine one = that was sold to an inappropriate home without appropriate support for = the owner including the option to return the dog if the owner is unable = to keep the dog for any reason. Second the person who gave away the dog = without giving appropriate details of the dog's history and who possibly = screwed up dog. And the mother who took a large powerful dog without = getting the history, thought that prior experience with dogs of the same = breed was sufficient to have her judge this dog's behavior and who took = it out with her daughter before giving the dog a chance to settle in and = for his behavior to be examined carefully. There could be several other owners along the line that were unable to = handle the dog and may have added to the dog's behavior. Prey drive is a likely cause of this biting but there could also be fear = or anger if this dog had been harassed by children in the past. There = may be a fine dog in there that time and training could turn into a = reliable companion. But why risk it and take the time and effort when = there are so many other dogs in rescue or puppies from reliable sources? = We have only once rescued an adult dog from an unknown source. He was = one of the most intelligent, fun and delightful dogs we've ever been = privilege to have. But he had no history of inappropriate aggression. = And we immediately took him to an experienced trainer for evaluation, = training and knew that if he didn't work out he might need to be = euthanized. We have several times done remedial work with dogs from = sources we knew, 3 were very hard dogs that I would classify as the = dominant aggressive type to use that much overused term. Those 3 = required special handling but were very predictable. Just as some horses = are too much horse for most riders, these 3 males were too much dog for = most owners. Finding appropriate owners for them was difficult. Of the = others none had problems with inappropriate or unpredictable aggression = and were retrained and rehomed successfully either with us permanently = or with others. This dog possibly could live on as a junk yard dog but that quality of = life is questionable. And there remains the chance that he could get out = and attack a child or small animal. One of the 3 very hard dogs I = referred to was a yard dog for an auto wrecking yard at night but lived = with the owners. Once while they were gone the lock was cut and from the = marks in the gravel the dog tussled with someone before they drove off. = The dog was loose and wandering the street while the owners were driving = up. Across the street a woman with pushing a stroller saw the dog who = trotted up to say hi--it wasn't his territory so he had no reason to be = aggressive. She sternly told him to go home. The owners were now close = enough to call him and he promptly ran to them. Even a junk yard dog can = be safe off with children. For the safety of all the humans and animals = this dog might come into contact with euthanizing him is sadly the most = responsible choice. There are too many safer dogs who need good owners. Julie Alexander ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Christa Chadwick=20 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca=20 Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 1:56 PM Subject: Introduction and Question Hello! I work for the BC SPCA, in the animal welfare department. I'm new to = the list, and am looking forward to participating, and learning. To start off my participation in this list, I'm looking for some help = from the experts out there...Here's the situation: The dog in question is a 4 yr. old, neutered male Rottweiler He was given to a woman, through a free-to-good home ad in the local = newspaper. 24 hours after she took ownership, the new owner took the dog to the = park with her 5 yr. old daughter. This woman had owned 3 Rottweilers = previously, and all had lived to approx. 13 yrs. of age. While running with her mother, and with the dog on-leash, the 5 yr. = old daughter fell down=20 The dog jumped on the daughter, and started biting her legs while the = girl remained on the ground. Mom was unable to remove the dog from her daughter's legs A bystander approached and helped Mom remove the dog from the girl The bystander called the police and the ambulance The police took the dog to the local SPCA Mom stated that she counted 10 bite marks to her daughter's legs (we = have photographs of the bites - there are definitely numerous bites, = including punctures, and heavy bruising) It is important to note that we have no previous history on this dog. = We have attempted to contact the previous owner, but his phone number is = no longer in service. We're wondering what would any of you would do with a case like this? = Would this dog require life-long management or would a total 'recovery' = be possible, after treatment? What kind of treatment would be suggested? Would drug therapy be = involved? Do any of you have a sense of what the chances might be that this dog = would 'fall back into' this type of aggression? What type of aggression = would you classify this as? Thanks for any help you might be able to offer... Sincerely Christa Chadwick From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" 17-APR-2003 19:07:33.88 To: IN%"robin@coape.co.uk" CC: IN%"cchadwick@spca.bc.ca" "'Christa Chadwick'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Introduction and Question Right on, Robin. I even wrote one of my infamous "ditties" about this in the early 70s. Not good poetry, but then the truth rarely is. Bill Campbell ODE ON "DON'T SCREAM!" Sad, but true, this awful fact, But sounds of screaming shrill Awaken basic canine drives, That tell some dogs to kill. -0- "R.E.Walker" wrote: > > What to do? This is indeed the question. I am intrigued by the mechanisms of > the mishap. > > Falling down in a dog pen is a notorious trigger for a mass attack on a > familiar handler or > family member. > > If this was a predatory attack triggered by the startling/alarming/novel > (for the dog) behaviour of > the child it is nothing new. A question of some importance is "did the child > cry out when she fell?". > > Cases reported in the British Press over the last 40 years are worth > recalling. > > An elderly woman is Surrey was killed by her small pack of Golden Retrievers > having > emitted a loud sneeze. > > An eleven year-old girl on a walk with a friend of the same age was killed > by the friend's > family Rottweiler. Whilst out with the 2 dogs and her companion the girl > squatted to urinate > in the grass. One dog rushed up to investigate and jumped up to lick the > girl's face. > She shrieked as girls do. The dog instantly attacked and tore out her > throat. > > Two teenage girls baby-minding in company with a Rotweiler bitch were > suddenly attacked > by the dog and fled into a bathroom. A male and a female police officer > called to the scene > became embroiled in a desperate battle with the dog which was throttled to > death in > by means of a baton "Spanish windlassed" through its collar. I wonder what > the girls were doing and how much > shrieking might have occurred before its continuance alerted the > neighbours? > > What part might the "shriek" have in triggering the attack? > > What might be avoided in the future (if there is one) to avoid repetition? > > Risk assessment is the pressing need. > > (I would avoid "Prozak" as a quick fix) > > Robin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christa Chadwick [mailto:cchadwick@spca.bc.ca] > Sent: 17 April 2003 21:57 > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Introduction and Question > > Hello! > I work for the BC SPCA, in the animal welfare department. I'm new to the > list, and am looking forward to participating, and learning. > > To start off my participation in this list, I'm looking for some help from > the experts out there...Here's the situation: > > The dog in question is a 4 yr. old, neutered male Rottweiler > He was given to a woman, through a free-to-good home ad in the local > newspaper. > 24 hours after she took ownership, the new owner took the dog to the park > with her 5 yr. old daughter. This woman had owned 3 Rottweilers previously, > and all had lived to approx. 13 yrs. of age. > > While running with her mother, and with the dog on-leash, the 5 yr. old > daughter fell down > The dog jumped on the daughter, and started biting her legs while the girl > remained on the ground. > Mom was unable to remove the dog from her daughter's legs > A bystander approached and helped Mom remove the dog from the girl > The bystander called the police and the ambulance > The police took the dog to the local SPCA > Mom stated that she counted 10 bite marks to her daughter's legs (we have > photographs of the bites - there are definitely numerous bites, including > punctures, and heavy bruising) > > It is important to note that we have no previous history on this dog. We > have attempted to contact the previous owner, but his phone number is no > longer in service. > > We're wondering what would any of you would do with a case like this? Would > this dog require life-long management or would a total 'recovery' be > possible, after treatment? > What kind of treatment would be suggested? Would drug therapy be involved? > Do any of you have a sense of what the chances might be that this dog would > 'fall back into' this type of aggression? What type of aggression would you > classify this as? > Thanks for any help you might be able to offer... > Sincerely > Christa Chadwick > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Name: winmail.dat > winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef > Encoding: BASE64 From: IN%"rudy.demeester@pi.be" "rudy de meester" 18-APR-2003 01:54:57.16 To: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "'Bill Campbell'", IN%"robin@coape.co.uk" CC: IN%"cchadwick@spca.bc.ca" "'Christa Chadwick'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Introduction and Question Hi everybody, I think this is a number one topic in dog agression and safety evaluation. Are there other objective data available on dog agression elicted by sounds made by children? Does the reaction of a dog on such a sound can be tested? I am not speeking about agression by a group of dogs, neighter of agression following chasing a running child, but purely about a screaming child being killed or severly hurt by a dog that never showed agressive behaviour before. Is there anyone who has detailed information on the behavioural sequences shown by this dog? Kind regards, Rudy De Meester -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Bill Campbell [mailto:billcamp@cdsnet.net] Verzonden: vrijdag 18 april 2003 3:05 Aan: robin@coape.co.uk CC: 'Christa Chadwick'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Onderwerp: Re: Introduction and Question Right on, Robin. I even wrote one of my infamous "ditties" about this in the early 70s. Not good poetry, but then the truth rarely is. Bill Campbell ODE ON "DON'T SCREAM!" Sad, but true, this awful fact, But sounds of screaming shrill Awaken basic canine drives, That tell some dogs to kill. -0- "R.E.Walker" wrote: > > What to do? This is indeed the question. I am intrigued by the > mechanisms of the mishap. > > Falling down in a dog pen is a notorious trigger for a mass attack on > a familiar handler or family member. > > If this was a predatory attack triggered by the > startling/alarming/novel (for the dog) behaviour of the child it is > nothing new. A question of some importance is "did the child cry out > when she fell?". > > Cases reported in the British Press over the last 40 years are worth > recalling. > > An elderly woman is Surrey was killed by her small pack of Golden > Retrievers having emitted a loud sneeze. > > An eleven year-old girl on a walk with a friend of the same age was > killed by the friend's family Rottweiler. Whilst out with the 2 dogs > and her companion the girl squatted to urinate > in the grass. One dog rushed up to investigate and jumped up to lick the > girl's face. > She shrieked as girls do. The dog instantly attacked and tore out her > throat. > > Two teenage girls baby-minding in company with a Rotweiler bitch were > suddenly attacked by the dog and fled into a bathroom. A male and a > female police officer called to the scene > became embroiled in a desperate battle with the dog which was throttled to > death in > by means of a baton "Spanish windlassed" through its collar. I wonder what > the girls were doing and how much > shrieking might have occurred before its continuance alerted the > neighbours? > > What part might the "shriek" have in triggering the attack? > > What might be avoided in the future (if there is one) to avoid > repetition? > > Risk assessment is the pressing need. > > (I would avoid "Prozak" as a quick fix) > > Robin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christa Chadwick [mailto:cchadwick@spca.bc.ca] > Sent: 17 April 2003 21:57 > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Introduction and Question > > Hello! > I work for the BC SPCA, in the animal welfare department. I'm new to > the list, and am looking forward to participating, and learning. > > To start off my participation in this list, I'm looking for some help > from the experts out there...Here's the situation: > > The dog in question is a 4 yr. old, neutered male Rottweiler He was > given to a woman, through a free-to-good home ad in the local > newspaper. 24 hours after she took ownership, the new owner took the > dog to the park with her 5 yr. old daughter. This woman had owned 3 > Rottweilers previously, and all had lived to approx. 13 yrs. of age. > > While running with her mother, and with the dog on-leash, the 5 yr. > old daughter fell down The dog jumped on the daughter, and started > biting her legs while the girl remained on the ground. > Mom was unable to remove the dog from her daughter's legs > A bystander approached and helped Mom remove the dog from the girl > The bystander called the police and the ambulance > The police took the dog to the local SPCA > Mom stated that she counted 10 bite marks to her daughter's legs (we have > photographs of the bites - there are definitely numerous bites, including > punctures, and heavy bruising) > > It is important to note that we have no previous history on this dog. > We have attempted to contact the previous owner, but his phone number > is no longer in service. > > We're wondering what would any of you would do with a case like this? > Would this dog require life-long management or would a total > 'recovery' be possible, after treatment? What kind of treatment would > be suggested? Would drug therapy be involved? Do any of you have a > sense of what the chances might be that this dog would 'fall back > into' this type of aggression? What type of aggression would you > classify this as? Thanks for any help you might be able to offer... > Sincerely > Christa Chadwick > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- > Name: winmail.dat > winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef > Encoding: BASE64 From: IN%"nina@hundifokus.no" "Nina, Hund i Fokus" 18-APR-2003 05:28:45.29 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: please support the norwegian dog-owners The Norwegian justice department released their new dog law proposition on the 28. of mars. It calls for the ban of the American Staffordshire Terrier and Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Plus the Justice Department can at any time ban any other dog breed that they choose. This means that the Presa Canario, Cane Corso, American Bulldog, Neopolitan Mastiff, Boer Boel, and the Bull Terrier, can be banned at a future date. The proposed dog law can be seen here in Norwegian at: http://www.odin.dep.no/jd/norsk/aktuelt/pressem/012101-070126/index-dok000-b -n-a.html Here are the emails to the committee members in Norway that can stop this legislation: Storberget, Knut. A knut.storberget@stortinget.no Helleland, Trond, leder H trond.helleland@stortinget.no Gjul, Gunn Karin, nestleder A gunn.gjul@stortinget.no Ellingsen, Jan Arild, sekretær FrP jan-arild.ellingsen@stortinget.no Dybevig, Carsten. H carsten.dybevig@stortinget.no Hofstad, Linda Cathrine. H linda.hofstad@stortinget.no Holstad, Einar. KrF einar.holstad@stortinget.no Kvakkestad, André. FrP andre.kvakkestad@stortinget.no Marthinsen, Finn Kristian. KrF finn-kristian.marthinsen@stortinget.no Rui, Anne Helen. A anne-helen.rui@stortinget.no Regards, Poul Poulsen Washington Animal Foundation European Legislation Department poul@waf-legislation.org www.waf-legislation.org From: IN%"nina@hundifokus.no" "Nina, Hund i Fokus" 18-APR-2003 05:28:47.11 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Plese sign this petition Hi all! Please sign the petition against banning breeds in Norway. 3 dog breeds are proposed illegal; American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier and Tjekkoslovakian Wolfdog. If we don't stop this law, more breeds are to be illegal in the years to come. Help us, support us! Forward this mail to your friends. Here is the petition against BSL in Norway. It is in English, so please sign and cross post. Thank you. http://www.petitiononline.com/nahfkamp/petition.html Poul Poulsen Washington Animal Foundation European Legislation Department poul@waf-legislation.org www.waf-legislation.org petition From: IN%"ceann-icrc@lycos.com" 18-APR-2003 06:42:57.72 To: IN%"rudy.demeester@pi.be" "rudy de meester" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Introduction and Question Hi Rudy, If you want to get in touch with Pat Goodman at Wolf Park, she can tell you some very interesting behaviors she has seen in the wolves over the last 30 years. Some of these sounds do elicit prey response.However, in my coyotes, these squeeks and squeals seem to turn off aggression between themselves. It is more of a rank order response. Like don't hurt me, I give up. The park number is 765-567-2265 CeAnn -- On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:54:23 rudy de meester wrote: >Hi everybody, > >I think this is a number one topic in dog agression and safety evaluation. >Are there other objective data available on dog agression elicted by sounds >made by children? Does the reaction of a dog on such a sound can be tested? >I am not speeking about agression by a group of dogs, neighter of agression >following chasing a running child, but purely about a screaming child being >killed or severly hurt by a dog that never showed agressive behaviour >before. Is there anyone who has detailed information on the behavioural >sequences shown by this dog? > >Kind regards, > >Rudy De Meester > >-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >Van: Bill Campbell [mailto:billcamp@cdsnet.net] >Verzonden: vrijdag 18 april 2003 3:05 >Aan: robin@coape.co.uk >CC: 'Christa Chadwick'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Onderwerp: Re: Introduction and Question > > >Right on, Robin. > >I even wrote one of my infamous "ditties" about this in the early 70s. Not >good poetry, but then the truth rarely is. > >Bill Campbell > >ODE ON "DON'T SCREAM!" > >Sad, but true, this awful fact, >But sounds of screaming shrill >Awaken basic canine drives, >That tell some dogs to kill. > >-0- > >"R.E.Walker" wrote: >> >> What to do? This is indeed the question. I am intrigued by the >> mechanisms of the mishap. >> >> Falling down in a dog pen is a notorious trigger for a mass attack on >> a familiar handler or family member. >> >> If this was a predatory attack triggered by the >> startling/alarming/novel (for the dog) behaviour of the child it is >> nothing new. A question of some importance is "did the child cry out >> when she fell?". >> >> Cases reported in the British Press over the last 40 years are worth >> recalling. >> >> An elderly woman is Surrey was killed by her small pack of Golden >> Retrievers having emitted a loud sneeze. >> >> An eleven year-old girl on a walk with a friend of the same age was >> killed by the friend's family Rottweiler. Whilst out with the 2 dogs >> and her companion the girl squatted to urinate >> in the grass. One dog rushed up to investigate and jumped up to lick the >> girl's face. >> She shrieked as girls do. The dog instantly attacked and tore out her >> throat. >> >> Two teenage girls baby-minding in company with a Rotweiler bitch were >> suddenly attacked by the dog and fled into a bathroom. A male and a >> female police officer called to the scene >> became embroiled in a desperate battle with the dog which was throttled to >> death in >> by means of a baton "Spanish windlassed" through its collar. I wonder what >> the girls were doing and how much >> shrieking might have occurred before its continuance alerted the >> neighbours? >> >> What part might the "shriek" have in triggering the attack? >> >> What might be avoided in the future (if there is one) to avoid >> repetition? >> >> Risk assessment is the pressing need. >> >> (I would avoid "Prozak" as a quick fix) >> >> Robin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Christa Chadwick [mailto:cchadwick@spca.bc.ca] >> Sent: 17 April 2003 21:57 >> To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca >> Subject: Introduction and Question >> >> Hello! >> I work for the BC SPCA, in the animal welfare department. I'm new to >> the list, and am looking forward to participating, and learning. >> >> To start off my participation in this list, I'm looking for some help >> from the experts out there...Here's the situation: >> >> The dog in question is a 4 yr. old, neutered male Rottweiler He was >> given to a woman, through a free-to-good home ad in the local >> newspaper. 24 hours after she took ownership, the new owner took the >> dog to the park with her 5 yr. old daughter. This woman had owned 3 >> Rottweilers previously, and all had lived to approx. 13 yrs. of age. >> >> While running with her mother, and with the dog on-leash, the 5 yr. >> old daughter fell down The dog jumped on the daughter, and started >> biting her legs while the girl remained on the ground. >> Mom was unable to remove the dog from her daughter's legs >> A bystander approached and helped Mom remove the dog from the girl >> The bystander called the police and the ambulance >> The police took the dog to the local SPCA >> Mom stated that she counted 10 bite marks to her daughter's legs (we have >> photographs of the bites - there are definitely numerous bites, including >> punctures, and heavy bruising) >> >> It is important to note that we have no previous history on this dog. >> We have attempted to contact the previous owner, but his phone number >> is no longer in service. >> >> We're wondering what would any of you would do with a case like this? >> Would this dog require life-long management or would a total >> 'recovery' be possible, after treatment? What kind of treatment would >> be suggested? Would drug therapy be involved? Do any of you have a >> sense of what the chances might be that this dog would 'fall back >> into' this type of aggression? What type of aggression would you >> classify this as? Thanks for any help you might be able to offer... >> Sincerely >> Christa Chadwick >> >> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--------- >> Name: winmail.dat >> winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef >> Encoding: BASE64 > > From: IN%"csmith35@nycap.rr.com" "Cynthia Smith" 18-APR-2003 07:30:02.51 To: IN%"aap28@cam.ac.uk" "hermes", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Animals in sports Hermes here are a few links that mention animal welfare issuses in equine sports that may be of interest. Freeman, D.A. (2000). Horse Welfare in North America http://www2.vet.upenn.edu/labs/equinebehavior/hvnwkshp/hv02/freeman.htm Houpt, K.A. and Crowell-Davis, S. (1997). Equine Production and Perfromance In:Animal Welfare Issues Compendium http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/97issues.htm#Issue6 As mentioned earlier it is complex issue and may vary from sport to sport, or from club to club, or from breed to breed. I know some clubs have statements on their entry forms that in effect state that riders will be asked to leave the show grounds if they demonstrate abusive behaviors (i,e, excessive use the whip), etc. towards their horse. I usually shy away (no pun intended) of speaking in generalities but in thirty years of riding horses, showing, visiting horse farms, etc. the area in which I've seen the greatest risk of abuse to horses is when a human loses their emotional control. For example, horse won't load after numerous tries, person strikes horse with whip repeatedly; horse won't stop jigging rider gets frustrated and yanks on bit; horse won't stand still for shoeing, vet check, etc. human loses it and yells and strikes horse. What is interesting to note is that in all the above cases directing the movement or lack of movement (i.e. stand still) of the horse is the source of frustration for the human. Is this not a problem with other animals in are care as well? For example pig goes the wrong direction down the alley; sow doesn't enter farrowing crate; pigs won't load in truck; dog won't heel, dog won't sit stay; steer won't move through chute; steer won't enter squeeze chute; steer won't load into truck; etc. and somewhere along the way a human gets frustrated and loses their self control. For horse enthusiasts in the last ten years or so there has been a mass marketing of tools and clincians one can choose from to perfect techniques to manage just such situations as above. However as far as physical harm to the horse the worst damage I've seen is what horse's have done to themselves. Primarily cuts, gashes, and other wounds from going through fences, or cutting themselves on other structures. Which of course leads us to proper management, types of fencing, grouping of horses, etc. All good topics and areas of research for this list! Cynthia Smith, M.S. Technical Information Specialist USDA/ARS/NAL/ Animal Welfare Information Center ----- Original Message ----- From: "hermes" To: Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:00 AM Subject: Animals in sports > I have been following your suggestions to have a look at certain URLs and > for my surprise I find nothing about the welfare of the animals used in > their sports. > > I understand that in the UK all these sports are self-regulated and there is > no external body to check on their welfare standards. > > I would like to put the ethics of this under discussion in this list > > > I am also updating my website with the links that have been suggested by you > relatively to this issue. > > > You can see it here: > > http://www.animal-info.net/animalwelfare/sports.html > > When I have more time I'll update it more. > If you have any other suggestion for links please feel free to add it on > the links database by clicking here: > > http://avcp.uktw.co.uk:4480/links/new.htm > > > Thanks > > Ana > From: IN%"Shetts@aol.com" 18-APR-2003 09:19:42.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A question. In a message dated 04/16/2003 10:11:14 PM Mountain Daylight Time, wheep@igrin.co.nz writes: > > this was the first time the bitch had been moved with a litter of pups to a > strange area filled with unfamiliar/potentially threatening stimuli then > she > had no option but to follow her instinct I've been out of town lecturing, but came home to a slew of posts regarding the Grt. Dane who had bitten. Because I have seen literally thousands of aggression cases, I would like to offer the following opinions: 1. the information provided - e.g. account of one bite - is insufficient to determine whether or not the dog is a "generalized" danger and should be euthanized. 2. I disagree with the point made above that the dog had no other choices. Of course she had other choices. She could have chosen to growl, show her teeth, or even deliver an inhibited bite. or even back away or allow the approach. Not all bitches with puppies bite people, even under stressful situations. This is something no one else seems to have commented on - it sounds as though she bit repeatedly and /or severely and did quite a bit of damage. That to me is of the most concern - she showed very little bite inhibition. She could have made her point "back away" with inflicting far less damage than she did. 3. there was no clear description of exactly where the puppies were - several feet away, in a box in front of the female, etc. Just because there were puppies present doesn't not automatically make this a case of maternal aggression. After all, the interaction with the vet tech. was directed toward the adult female, not the puppies. 4. Related to this, the female had allowed an initial approach - whether her body language was communicating, fear, threats, or anxiety or friendliness during that first approach is something we do not know. 5. I think it more likely that if this were a strict case of maternal aggression, she would have threatened or bitten in response to the initial approach. 6. I think it also possible that the female was reacting to the technician invading her personal space - hands reaching over a dog's head, direct eye contact, and a frontal approach are all typical of human greeting behaviors toward dogs that many, many dogs do not perceive as friendly. Treat giving is NOT a submissive gesture if they involve these aforementioned body postures. 7. Just because a dog's behavior is understandable does NOT make it acceptable. 8. I agree that technicians and other veterinary staff do not always receive the training they should regarding canine and feline communciation. We have a video on canine communication signals for this very purpose - there is an ordering link on my website, for ACT, Inc. (4act.com, `-800-357-3182) My business is involved right now as expert witness status in a case in which a veterinary staff person was bitten by a large dog and the question of how much training she received, and how much the owners disclosed about her previous behaivor, are both at issue. 9. The dog and owners should be referred immediately to an experienced animal behaviorist for help. Best, Suzanne Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D. Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist Animal Behavior Associates, Inc. Littleton, CO www.animalbehaviorassociates.com From: IN%"Shetts@aol.com" 18-APR-2003 09:32:41.28 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction and Question In a message dated 04/17/2003 3:15:31 PM Mountain Daylight Time, cchadwick@spca.bc.ca writes: > Mom stated that she counted 10 bite marks to her daughter's legs (we have > photographs of the bites - there are definitely numerous bites, including > punctures, and heavy bruising) > > It is important to note that we have no previous history on this dog. We > have attempted to contact the previous owner, but his phone number is no > longer in service. > If the SPCA now has this dog, in my opinion there is no way you can even consider putting this dog up for adoption. I just returned from conducting a 2 day workshop on evaluating dogs for an animal shelter in the midwest, and we discussed similar situations at length. Your liability if nothing else, precludes trying to place this dog in a home. Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D. Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist Animal Behavior Associates, Inc. Littleton, CO www.animalbehaviorassociates.com From: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz" 18-APR-2003 16:32:28.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A question. My suggestion was that the dog had no behavioral paradigm for that particular situation and therefore could only follow her instinct - I also made it clear that the dog's choice of response should be considered a bad call. To this extent I feel my comments are being taken out of context, although I accept that my precise wording should have been under tighter discipline. In the absence of a previously learnt pattern of behavior resulting from exposure to some similar situation is it not the case that the immediate mental reaction in a dog, or person or horse come to that, is to carry out a 'memory search' for the closest match - and that this process is carried out very rapidly and is essentially subconscious? Given the character and speed of this mental process, and perhaps also the filter of unusual hormone activity, should the dog not be forgiven for making bad call? I assume that the people involved in the situation all had plenty of time to apply a leisurely rational analysis prior to the event - this did not prevent them making multiple bad calls. Regards Andy -----Original Message----- From: Shetts@aol.com [mailto:Shetts@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, 19 April 2003 3:19 a.m. To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: A question. In a message dated 04/16/2003 10:11:14 PM Mountain Daylight Time, wheep@igrin.co.nz writes: this was the first time the bitch had been moved with a litter of pups to a strange area filled with unfamiliar/potentially threatening stimuli then she had no option but to follow her instinct I've been out of town lecturing, but came home to a slew of posts regarding the Grt. Dane who had bitten. Because I have seen literally thousands of aggression cases, I would like to offer the following opinions: 1. the information provided - e.g. account of one bite - is insufficient to determine whether or not the dog is a "generalized" danger and should be euthanized. 2. I disagree with the point made above that the dog had no other choices. Of course she had other choices. She could have chosen to growl, show her teeth, or even deliver an inhibited bite. or even back away or allow the approach. Not all bitches with puppies bite people, even under stressful situations. This is something no one else seems to have commented on - it sounds as though she bit repeatedly and /or severely and did quite a bit of damage. That to me is of the most concern - she showed very little bite inhibition. She could have made her point "back away" with inflicting far less damage than she did. 3. there was no clear description of exactly where the puppies were - several feet away, in a box in front of the female, etc. Just because there were puppies present doesn't not automatically make this a case of maternal aggression. After all, the interaction with the vet tech. was directed toward the adult female, not the puppies. 4. Related to this, the female had allowed an initial approach - whether her body language was communicating, fear, threats, or anxiety or friendliness during that first approach is something we do not know. 5. I think it more likely that if this were a strict case of maternal aggression, she would have threatened or bitten in response to the initial approach. 6. I think it also possible that the female was reacting to the technician invading her personal space - hands reaching over a dog's head, direct eye contact, and a frontal approach are all typical of human greeting behaviors toward dogs that many, many dogs do not perceive as friendly. Treat giving is NOT a submissive gesture if they involve these aforementioned body postures. 7. Just because a dog's behavior is understandable does NOT make it acceptable. 8. I agree that technicians and other veterinary staff do not always receive the training they should regarding canine and feline communciation. We have a video on canine communication signals for this very purpose - there is an ordering link on my website, for ACT, Inc. (4act.com, `-800-357-3182) My business is involved right now as expert witness status in a case in which a veterinary staff person was bitten by a large dog and the question of how much training she received, and how much the owners disclosed about her previous behaivor, are both at issue. 9. The dog and owners should be referred immediately to an experienced animal behaviorist for help. Best, Suzanne Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D. Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist Animal Behavior Associates, Inc. Littleton, CO www.animalbehaviorassociates.com From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen MRCVS" 19-APR-2003 01:28:32.13 To: IN%"rudy.demeester@pi.be" "rudy de meester", IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "'Bill Campbell'", IN%"robin@coape.co.uk" CC: IN%"cchadwick@spca.bc.ca" "'Christa Chadwick'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Introduction and Question What would be the effect of proper puppyhood habituation to child and other shrieking noises? Would this reduce risk perhaps? Testing would be good, but might be difficult because so many of terriers and other breeds show high levels of arousal with squeaky toys, and similar noises. Is this learned or innate? Are such toys safe or do they encourage a pattenr of behaviour that is dangerous? How do we differentiate those dogs who can discriminate between real noises emmanating from a live child from those coming out of a test dummy? It would be interesting to know what the Rottweiler's recent experience of children was, its reaction to children's noises and what kind of toys it interacted with. Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "rudy de meester" To: "'Bill Campbell'" ; Cc: "'Christa Chadwick'" ; Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 8:54 AM Subject: RE: Introduction and Question > Hi everybody, > > I think this is a number one topic in dog agression and safety evaluation. > Are there other objective data available on dog agression elicted by sounds > made by children? Does the reaction of a dog on such a sound can be tested? > I am not speeking about agression by a group of dogs, neighter of agression > following chasing a running child, but purely about a screaming child being > killed or severly hurt by a dog that never showed agressive behaviour > before. Is there anyone who has detailed information on the behavioural > sequences shown by this dog? > > Kind regards, > > Rudy De Meester > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Bill Campbell [mailto:billcamp@cdsnet.net] > Verzonden: vrijdag 18 april 2003 3:05 > Aan: robin@coape.co.uk > CC: 'Christa Chadwick'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Onderwerp: Re: Introduction and Question > > > Right on, Robin. > > I even wrote one of my infamous "ditties" about this in the early 70s. Not > good poetry, but then the truth rarely is. > > Bill Campbell > > ODE ON "DON'T SCREAM!" > > Sad, but true, this awful fact, > But sounds of screaming shrill > Awaken basic canine drives, > That tell some dogs to kill. > > -0- > > "R.E.Walker" wrote: > > > > What to do? This is indeed the question. I am intrigued by the > > mechanisms of the mishap. > > > > Falling down in a dog pen is a notorious trigger for a mass attack on > > a familiar handler or family member. > > > > If this was a predatory attack triggered by the > > startling/alarming/novel (for the dog) behaviour of the child it is > > nothing new. A question of some importance is "did the child cry out > > when she fell?". > > > > Cases reported in the British Press over the last 40 years are worth > > recalling. > > > > An elderly woman is Surrey was killed by her small pack of Golden > > Retrievers having emitted a loud sneeze. > > > > An eleven year-old girl on a walk with a friend of the same age was > > killed by the friend's family Rottweiler. Whilst out with the 2 dogs > > and her companion the girl squatted to urinate > > in the grass. One dog rushed up to investigate and jumped up to lick the > > girl's face. > > She shrieked as girls do. The dog instantly attacked and tore out her > > throat. > > > > Two teenage girls baby-minding in company with a Rotweiler bitch were > > suddenly attacked by the dog and fled into a bathroom. A male and a > > female police officer called to the scene > > became embroiled in a desperate battle with the dog which was throttled to > > death in > > by means of a baton "Spanish windlassed" through its collar. I wonder what > > the girls were doing and how much > > shrieking might have occurred before its continuance alerted the > > neighbours? > > > > What part might the "shriek" have in triggering the attack? > > > > What might be avoided in the future (if there is one) to avoid > > repetition? > > > > Risk assessment is the pressing need. > > > > (I would avoid "Prozak" as a quick fix) > > > > Robin > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Christa Chadwick [mailto:cchadwick@spca.bc.ca] > > Sent: 17 April 2003 21:57 > > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > Subject: Introduction and Question > > > > Hello! > > I work for the BC SPCA, in the animal welfare department. I'm new to > > the list, and am looking forward to participating, and learning. > > > > To start off my participation in this list, I'm looking for some help > > from the experts out there...Here's the situation: > > > > The dog in question is a 4 yr. old, neutered male Rottweiler He was > > given to a woman, through a free-to-good home ad in the local > > newspaper. 24 hours after she took ownership, the new owner took the > > dog to the park with her 5 yr. old daughter. This woman had owned 3 > > Rottweilers previously, and all had lived to approx. 13 yrs. of age. > > > > While running with her mother, and with the dog on-leash, the 5 yr. > > old daughter fell down The dog jumped on the daughter, and started > > biting her legs while the girl remained on the ground. > > Mom was unable to remove the dog from her daughter's legs > > A bystander approached and helped Mom remove the dog from the girl > > The bystander called the police and the ambulance > > The police took the dog to the local SPCA > > Mom stated that she counted 10 bite marks to her daughter's legs (we have > > photographs of the bites - there are definitely numerous bites, including > > punctures, and heavy bruising) > > > > It is important to note that we have no previous history on this dog. > > We have attempted to contact the previous owner, but his phone number > > is no longer in service. > > > > We're wondering what would any of you would do with a case like this? > > Would this dog require life-long management or would a total > > 'recovery' be possible, after treatment? What kind of treatment would > > be suggested? Would drug therapy be involved? Do any of you have a > > sense of what the chances might be that this dog would 'fall back > > into' this type of aggression? What type of aggression would you > > classify this as? Thanks for any help you might be able to offer... > > Sincerely > > Christa Chadwick > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > --------- > > Name: winmail.dat > > winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef > > Encoding: BASE64 > From: IN%"synalia@synalia.com" "kcover" 19-APR-2003 04:32:14.39 To: CC: IN%"cchadwick@spca.bc.ca" "'Christa Chadwick'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Introduction and Question Hi Christa and all, Short answer: Such a dog has a very high risk of "falling back" into opportunistic, uncontrolled aggression. I recommend euthanasia of this dog and would turn my attention to placing an easier and safer dog. I work a fair amount with aggressive and dangerous animals, and trainers of same, and this seems to be the consensus amongst many of the trainers I respect. I consider this dog an extreme risk. Long answer: I would not even attempt to rehabilitate such a dog with the view of placing it in a normal home. I would have the dog euthanized unless an extremely good trainer was willing to own the dog and manage it according to its high risk. There are too many deserving, easy to place dogs that just need a bit of help to waste resources. This dog will always be a liability unless expertly managed, and perhaps even then. As police handlers and professional trainers who work with aggressive dogs assert, once the animal gets a "blood bite", the dog never forgets its ascendency, and the payoffs for attacking. In protection training, the pay off for the dog is not food, or praise, it is the opportunity to bite, and any dog that will not come off the attack immediately on cue is not suitable even for protection work. I own a protection trained dog and work with many trainers of same, and uncontrolled aggression (dog won't respond to owner command)is considered a huge liability in a home companion animal. Further, aggression is so innately reinforcing that it can be extremely difficult to get a dog to stop trying to turn situations into chances to aggress. And, when they do, you see their eyes glaze over and they go into a dissociated hyperdrive kind of state, probably very adrenalized, where they are very insensitive to pain and are virtually impervious to intervention, even with strong electric collars. In other words, the only way to manage such dogs is to turn them away from ever starting into the slightest bit of aggression, and the reinforcing hormone cascade associated with aggression - and without really skillful management, they will be endlessly fighting to get the chance to express the aggression despite your best efforts. I recently spent two weeks setting up training programs for rehabilitating shelter/rescue animals, and worked with trainers who deal with these issues day in and day out and we all concurred. We all have personal experience managing such animals, and have owned many of similar danger level, simply because we felt they could be managed, but never without danger to a normal family - regardless of perfection of training performance, with the family, under our supervision. Because, if the dog ever started to regress, the manager has to be expert in handling the aggression without being killed in the process, and the dog could pick any time to test again. Second, my experience working around and training wolves, is that high pitched, squealing sounds are extremely evocative to the wolves. The National Zoo used to feed live chicks, and the peeps of the chicks being brought to the wolves would excite them no end, and elicit a particular sort of ranging and approach behavior consistent with predation. (When I trained sharks for an aquarium, the aquarists dove with the sharks routinely, and would watch for exactly this kind of purposeful, sharp ranging in the sharks as a primary signal of hunting, and hence, increased danger and time to get out of the water.) I believe that it can be very dangerous to squeal, shreak or scream. Thirdly, I am aware that many classify aggression into various categories. However, I work in resolving aggression in animals, and my experience indicates that a single corrective approach has been imminently successful with the preponderance of cases, regardless of originating history. This is a common subject of debate amongst professional trainers working with these issues, and many of us agree on this. Knowing the originating history may allow us to avoid future problems with other animals, or even allow prediction of when aggression is likely to erupt initially, but it is not useful to us in solving the problem with a given dog. In short, all aggression is DANGEROUS aggression. AND, (with all animals, not just dogs) the first sign of aggression must be addressed effectively (to immediately change the animal's intent to aggress). In other words, a growl, sidelong look, feint - all are considered intent to harm and handled accordingly. We do not wait for an actual attack-in-progress to decide the animal is being aggressive/requires correction. To do so can gravely endanger the trainer, as the animal is more adrenalized, less responsive, more impervious to pain or redirection - not to mention that the trainer has cut his safety margin in handling the problem (things happen so quickly that you may not be able to respond quickly enough to stay safe; it is safer to respond before the bite starts than to wait for a bite in progress). Having said this, I will also mention that the single effective approach includes many elements, and can be a very positive, calm, easy experience (not advocating that all dogs need to be shocked or jerked or medicated, for example). In my experience, the situation that you describe requires immediate removal of the dog to a safe management system, planning to euthanize. This is despite my personal success in retraining aggressive dogs and other animals, and having owned several myself which went on to work safely with children and animals. The normal homelife does not allow suitable and safe management of such an animal. Sincerely, Kayce Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com 757 588 5967 >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Christa Chadwick [mailto:cchadwick@spca.bc.ca] >>>Sent: 17 April 2003 21:57 >>>To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca >>>Subject: Introduction and Question >>> >>>Hello! >>>I work for the BC SPCA, in the animal welfare department. I'm new to >>>the list, and am looking forward to participating, and learning. >>> >>>To start off my participation in this list, I'm looking for some help >>>from the experts out there...Here's the situation: >>> >>>The dog in question is a 4 yr. old, neutered male Rottweiler He was >>>given to a woman, through a free-to-good home ad in the local >>>newspaper. 24 hours after she took ownership, the new owner took the >>>dog to the park with her 5 yr. old daughter. This woman had owned 3 >>>Rottweilers previously, and all had lived to approx. 13 yrs. of age. >>> >>>While running with her mother, and with the dog on-leash, the 5 yr. >>>old daughter fell down The dog jumped on the daughter, and started >>>biting her legs while the girl remained on the ground. >>>Mom was unable to remove the dog from her daughter's legs >>>A bystander approached and helped Mom remove the dog from the girl >>>The bystander called the police and the ambulance >>>The police took the dog to the local SPCA >>>Mom stated that she counted 10 bite marks to her daughter's legs (we >>> > have > >>>photographs of the bites - there are definitely numerous bites, >>> > including > >>>punctures, and heavy bruising) >>> >>>It is important to note that we have no previous history on this dog. >>>We have attempted to contact the previous owner, but his phone number >>>is no longer in service. >>> >>>We're wondering what would any of you would do with a case like this? >>>Would this dog require life-long management or would a total >>>'recovery' be possible, after treatment? What kind of treatment would >>>be suggested? Would drug therapy be involved? Do any of you have a >>>sense of what the chances might be that this dog would 'fall back >>>into' this type of aggression? What type of aggression would you >>>classify this as? Thanks for any help you might be able to offer... >>>Sincerely >>>Christa Chadwick From: IN%"synalia@synalia.com" "kcover" 19-APR-2003 05:02:57.83 To: IN%"synalia@synalia.com" "kcover" CC: IN%"cchadwick@spca.bc.ca" "'Christa Chadwick'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: PS on dog aggression Hi Christa, I also meant to acknowledge that a careful introduction plan might prevent the onset of aggression, which, once incurred, can be very difficult to prevent from recurring. Particular care needs to be taken in transitioning dogs from "aggressive" breeds into homes with children. The first day home is probably too early to even introduce the dog to children in many cases, and particularly running or squealing children. Zoo animals are quarantined (including, kept to minimum change and adaptability demands) for at least 30 days. A dog that has changed homes twice in a short period of time is likely to have coping problems. Also, while I believe it is dangerous for children to squeal around dogs, it is pretty easy to decrease the risk by teaching the dog some easy skills in coping with squealing/screaming, and also such challenges as kids getting around it, getting into the dog's food, taking its toys, etc. Pretraining can prevent all kinds of tragedies. It is also pretty easy to teach the dog to find the children, which can make them an important asset to family safety. Best, Kayce Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com 757 588 5967 kcover wrote: > Hi Christa and all, > > Short answer: > Such a dog has a very high risk of "falling back" into opportunistic, > uncontrolled aggression. I recommend euthanasia of this dog and would > turn my attention to placing an easier and safer dog. I work a fair > amount with aggressive and dangerous animals, and trainers of same, and > this seems to be the consensus amongst many of the trainers I respect. I > consider this dog an extreme risk. From: IN%"ceann-icrc@lycos.com" 19-APR-2003 06:33:58.31 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen MRCVS", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction and Question Jon, Here is what happened at Wolf Park a few years ago. We had a wolf that loved children, He treated them as puppies. He was the only wolf that Pat let meet children. One year he saw three things happen within a short time and you could see his attitude change. 1. One time the vet. came and she had her baby with her. The baby was lying on the ground on a blanket while her mother was in the wolf pen. The baby started crying and moving her arms and legs around, the way babies do. The wolf went to the fence and looked, but didn't pay much attention. 2. A few weeks later, a visitor came with a young child who had Turetts syndrome. That really caught the wolfs attention. 3. A woman was there with a young child who started to act up by screaming and yelling and throwing herself on the ground. The wolf went into prey mode and headed toward the fence and child. This all took place within a very short time. (perhaps a month or month and a half) From that point on, the wolf always saw children as prey and was never allowed to meet a child again. I'm sure that Pat Goodman has this documented at the park. I may have forgotten some things. This was about 12 years ago. CeAnn -- On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 08:27:46 Jon Bowen MRCVS wrote: >What would be the effect of proper puppyhood habituation to child and other >shrieking noises? >Would this reduce risk perhaps? > >Testing would be good, but might be difficult because so many of terriers >and other breeds show high levels of arousal with squeaky toys, and similar >noises. >Is this learned or innate? Are such toys safe or do they encourage a pattenr >of behaviour that is dangerous? How do we differentiate those dogs who can >discriminate between real noises emmanating from a live child from those >coming out of a test dummy? > >It would be interesting to know what the Rottweiler's recent experience of >children was, its reaction to children's noises and what kind of toys it >interacted with. > >Jon > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "rudy de meester" >To: "'Bill Campbell'" ; >Cc: "'Christa Chadwick'" ; > >Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 8:54 AM >Subject: RE: Introduction and Question > > >> Hi everybody, >> >> I think this is a number one topic in dog agression and safety evaluation. >> Are there other objective data available on dog agression elicted by >sounds >> made by children? Does the reaction of a dog on such a sound can be >tested? >> I am not speeking about agression by a group of dogs, neighter of >agression >> following chasing a running child, but purely about a screaming child >being >> killed or severly hurt by a dog that never showed agressive behaviour >> before. Is there anyone who has detailed information on the behavioural >> sequences shown by this dog? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Rudy De Meester >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Bill Campbell [mailto:billcamp@cdsnet.net] >> Verzonden: vrijdag 18 april 2003 3:05 >> Aan: robin@coape.co.uk >> CC: 'Christa Chadwick'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >> Onderwerp: Re: Introduction and Question >> >> >> Right on, Robin. >> >> I even wrote one of my infamous "ditties" about this in the early 70s. Not >> good poetry, but then the truth rarely is. >> >> Bill Campbell >> >> ODE ON "DON'T SCREAM!" >> >> Sad, but true, this awful fact, >> But sounds of screaming shrill >> Awaken basic canine drives, >> That tell some dogs to kill. >> >> -0- >> >> "R.E.Walker" wrote: >> > >> > What to do? This is indeed the question. I am intrigued by the >> > mechanisms of the mishap. >> > >> > Falling down in a dog pen is a notorious trigger for a mass attack on >> > a familiar handler or family member. >> > >> > If this was a predatory attack triggered by the >> > startling/alarming/novel (for the dog) behaviour of the child it is >> > nothing new. A question of some importance is "did the child cry out >> > when she fell?". >> > >> > Cases reported in the British Press over the last 40 years are worth >> > recalling. >> > >> > An elderly woman is Surrey was killed by her small pack of Golden >> > Retrievers having emitted a loud sneeze. >> > >> > An eleven year-old girl on a walk with a friend of the same age was >> > killed by the friend's family Rottweiler. Whilst out with the 2 dogs >> > and her companion the girl squatted to urinate >> > in the grass. One dog rushed up to investigate and jumped up to lick the >> > girl's face. >> > She shrieked as girls do. The dog instantly attacked and tore out her >> > throat. >> > >> > Two teenage girls baby-minding in company with a Rotweiler bitch were >> > suddenly attacked by the dog and fled into a bathroom. A male and a >> > female police officer called to the scene >> > became embroiled in a desperate battle with the dog which was throttled >to >> > death in >> > by means of a baton "Spanish windlassed" through its collar. I wonder >what >> > the girls were doing and how much >> > shrieking might have occurred before its continuance alerted the >> > neighbours? >> > >> > What part might the "shriek" have in triggering the attack? >> > >> > What might be avoided in the future (if there is one) to avoid >> > repetition? >> > >> > Risk assessment is the pressing need. >> > >> > (I would avoid "Prozak" as a quick fix) >> > >> > Robin >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Christa Chadwick [mailto:cchadwick@spca.bc.ca] >> > Sent: 17 April 2003 21:57 >> > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca >> > Subject: Introduction and Question >> > >> > Hello! >> > I work for the BC SPCA, in the animal welfare department. I'm new to >> > the list, and am looking forward to participating, and learning. >> > >> > To start off my participation in this list, I'm looking for some help >> > from the experts out there...Here's the situation: >> > >> > The dog in question is a 4 yr. old, neutered male Rottweiler He was >> > given to a woman, through a free-to-good home ad in the local >> > newspaper. 24 hours after she took ownership, the new owner took the >> > dog to the park with her 5 yr. old daughter. This woman had owned 3 >> > Rottweilers previously, and all had lived to approx. 13 yrs. of age. >> > >> > While running with her mother, and with the dog on-leash, the 5 yr. >> > old daughter fell down The dog jumped on the daughter, and started >> > biting her legs while the girl remained on the ground. >> > Mom was unable to remove the dog from her daughter's legs >> > A bystander approached and helped Mom remove the dog from the girl >> > The bystander called the police and the ambulance >> > The police took the dog to the local SPCA >> > Mom stated that she counted 10 bite marks to her daughter's legs (we >have >> > photographs of the bites - there are definitely numerous bites, >including >> > punctures, and heavy bruising) >> > >> > It is important to note that we have no previous history on this dog. >> > We have attempted to contact the previous owner, but his phone number >> > is no longer in service. >> > >> > We're wondering what would any of you would do with a case like this? >> > Would this dog require life-long management or would a total >> > 'recovery' be possible, after treatment? What kind of treatment would >> > be suggested? Would drug therapy be involved? Do any of you have a >> > sense of what the chances might be that this dog would 'fall back >> > into' this type of aggression? What type of aggression would you >> > classify this as? Thanks for any help you might be able to offer... >> > Sincerely >> > Christa Chadwick >> > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- >> --------- >> > Name: winmail.dat >> > winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef >> > Encoding: BASE64 >> > > From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 19-APR-2003 11:12:29.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A question. margory cohen for a minute with something else on this: Whilst Ms. Hetts writes to have the owners see a behaviorist, and others write to theories of what kind of aggression, I have another suggestion that's really pretty basic. The vet asked the client not to bring the dam and the pups to the office. The client disregarded. Instead of a nurse stepping up to interact with the dogs, I think the real lesson is that next time, because there will be, there will be another client -- the client should be asked to step outside or put immediately into a room instead of being kept in the waiting room. Not only because of the dam, but the usual puppy crud or puppy vulnerability (Parvo and other stuff). Sure, staff instruction is required. Yes, the dog and the owners after the pups are weaned and the dam is back to her own self, should work with a trainer at basic levels again to restore order. But the fault here that I see is with the vet's office protocol falling down. I betcha if this were in the U.S., a lawyer would find that .... or an insurance company in reviewing the yearly renewal. I'm glad the nurse is ok. But I think the embarrassment to the office could be potentially worse than the dam's disposition. I live in San Francisco. So much of how I think or thought has been scewered by experience here. In the wake of a woman's death by dog, you can be sure that vet offices experienced fallout -- not only by owners surrendering dogs to kill instead of train, but also -- people wouldn't go into a waiting area if a big dog was in the room! My own vet, I have Deerhounds some may remember, invariably whenever we arrived, would arrange for us to be apart in an empty office until it was our turn -- not because mine are a concern -- but practically there's more room! And yes sometimes there are smaller dogs who are not well trained and are skittish around a tall dog; but more, it is a vet after all, so dogs, cats are there 'cause they don't feel well in the first place. I know some Great Danes who are as reliable as the day is long. I know some others who were reliable and then the owner came up with an excuse now they started to spark at mine. There is no substitute for basic training and I wouldn't be surprised in this instance the dam's been gettin away with stuff since she was carryin those pups.... -margory cohen San Francisco with Scottish Deerhound ----- Original Message ----- From: Shetts@aol.com To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 8:19 AM Subject: Re: A question. 9. The dog and owners should be referred immediately to an experienced animal behaviorist for help. From: IN%"mad@nofeardavis.org" "Maren Plagens" 19-APR-2003 12:57:24.65 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: cat aggression I have a Bernese Mountain Dog who has recently decided that cats are the *greatest* thing in the world! There are two events I believe working up to this. First, his introduction to kittens about 6-8 weeks old where he wanted to play with them as squeak toys and was not allowed to. This was about a 5-minute introduction and I am sure very confusing and frustrating to him. Second we had 4 cats staying with us as fosters for about 5 weeks. I am very allergic to cats and so they were confined to the basement so my dog had no real interaction except to stand at the door and stare at the crack at the bottom for hours, literally. If allowed he would stay there and stare. He was un-distractable and extremely intense and frustrated. When the cats were in the house he started looking obsessively under other chairs in the house, under the bed, everywhere and when not allowed to stare under the door. He would find some other object to fixate under, the couch or bed or something. The cats have since gone; it took about two weeks to convince him of that. For him to stop looking under the door and beds. He had been around cats before, at the vets for instance. He was mildly curious before but now he is intense as a pointer after a bird. He exercises huge amounts of control when I ask, but when faced with a cat he will sit, shake and whine with frustration. I am pretty sure of what he would do if he got hold of one, but that has never happened. Once since then he came face to face with a large tom and they both stood and stared at each other, neither willing to move. He is now intense about pictures, statues, anything that resembles a cat. He used to be this way with birds (after an incident where he was attacked by a parrot) but he has forgotten the obsession with birds and only has this intensity towards cats. My concern is not that he will kill a cat. He is never unsupervised in a situation where he would come on a cat. But he does have to see them regularly at the vet, at PetSmart, on the television. I would just like to alleviate his stress. He visibly suffers at the sight of cats when he can't get to them! Thanks for any insight! Maren Plagens From: IN%"slvnhld@ix.netcom.com" "OBi Fox" 20-APR-2003 17:59:44.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction and Question Would someone please provide the overall scientific/behavioral definition of aggression being used in these discussions? Specifically, I am looking for the research work establishing the link between "aggress" (latin, movement toward) and the cognitive state of "intent to harm". In other words, the data to support the common assertion that any "aggress" is necessarily a display of a conscious choice on the part of the animal under observation to act in a manner to inflict harm on another. Along those lines, what happenned to the concept of "diematic display" - defensive posturing frequently including the component of "aggress" - the functional purpose of which was to evoke/trigger an avoidance response in an adversary? Was this concept discarded or disproven in the 30 years since I was originally introduced to the principle of maternal aggress as an instinctive defensive response? OBi Fox From: IN%"JLGhmn8532@aol.com" 21-APR-2003 06:23:55.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction and Question I feel there is something that needs to be mentioned in all of this aggressiveness 'stuff': specifically, the squeaking and shrieking of children. What does a sqeaky toy do? ...It squeaks!!! What does the dog do with a squeaky toy? ...It bites the H*LL out of it!!! What do we do? ...We encourage the behavior!!! Some common sense might need to be applied here. If the Rott is not familiar with children, shame on the owner/handler. I do believe the dog should be euthanized simply because it doesn't seem to have been properly socialized if at all. But that was already addressed, I believe. Regardless, I agree with the majority of the respondents to this situation. The Rott was poorly socialized, it at all. Owner also contributed due to ignorance and/or inattention. Happy Training!! Jeff Gehman, BS, DDH Houston, TX From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 21-APR-2003 09:59:10.45 To: IN%"slvnhld@ix.netcom.com" "OBi Fox" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Introduction and Question The most common distinction in the litterature is between "reactive" or "hostile" or "annoyance-motivated" and "proactive" or "instrumental" or "incentive-motivated" aggression. This basic distinction was offered by Dodge & Coie (1987; they often get the credit for it), Hinde (1970) and Zillmann (1979) respectively. Unfortunately, "intent to harm" can be a component of both. My Latin dictionary (I had to do Latin...) defines "aggressio" as "lesser attack; action of setting about/undertaking (a task)"; I see no reference to "moving towards", but that could be shortcomings of the dictionary. As for squeaking: wolves squeak all the time (see publications by Coscia and Harrington from here). In fact, it is their most common greeting vocalization (quite high pitch). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Behavioural endocrinology and ethology. http://www.Gadbois.org/ On Sunday, April 20, 2003, at 09:57 PM, OBi Fox wrote: > Would someone please provide the overall scientific/behavioral > definition of > aggression being used in these discussions? > > Specifically, I am looking for > the research work establishing the link between "aggress" (latin, > movement > toward) and the cognitive state of "intent to harm". In other words, > the > data to support the common assertion that any "aggress" is necessarily > a > display of a conscious choice on the part of the animal under > observation to > act in a manner to inflict harm on another. > > Along those lines, what happenned to the concept of "diematic display" > - > defensive posturing frequently including the component of "aggress" - > the > functional purpose of which was to evoke/trigger an avoidance response > in an > adversary? Was this concept discarded or disproven in the 30 years > since I > was originally > introduced to the principle of maternal aggress as an instinctive > defensive > response? > > OBi Fox From: IN%"ceann-icrc@lycos.com" 21-APR-2003 10:50:19.35 To: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Introduction and Question In my 16 years of being around wolves, I have never heard one squeek while greeting me or each other Wolves greet face to face. There is always a licking of the corner s of the mouth. This greeting behavior probably comes from the food begging behavior of licking the corners of adults mouths to get them to regurgitate food for them when they are pups. It just seems to carry over to become part of the greeting behavior. Squeeking in wolves can also trigger aggression in another wolf. If a wolf at wolf Park is being used as a squeek toy by another wolf, Pat may decide to remove it from the pack. Squeeking in coyotes seems to turn off aggression in another coyote. I have also heard a coyote squeek if I have startled it in some way. CeAnn On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:58:36 Simon Gadbois wrote: >The most common distinction in the litterature is between "reactive" or >"hostile" or "annoyance-motivated" and "proactive" or "instrumental" or >"incentive-motivated" aggression. This basic distinction was offered by >Dodge & Coie (1987; they often get the credit for it), Hinde (1970) and >Zillmann (1979) respectively. Unfortunately, "intent to harm" can be a >component of both. >My Latin dictionary (I had to do Latin...) defines "aggressio" as >"lesser attack; action of setting about/undertaking (a task)"; I see no >reference to "moving towards", but that could be shortcomings of the >dictionary. >As for squeaking: wolves squeak all the time (see publications by >Coscia and Harrington from here). In fact, it is their most common >greeting vocalization (quite high pitch). > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. >Behavioural endocrinology and ethology. >http://www.Gadbois.org/ > > > >On Sunday, April 20, 2003, at 09:57 PM, OBi Fox wrote: > >> Would someone please provide the overall scientific/behavioral >> definition of >> aggression being used in these discussions? >> >> Specifically, I am looking for >> the research work establishing the link between "aggress" (latin, >> movement >> toward) and the cognitive state of "intent to harm". In other words, >> the >> data to support the common assertion that any "aggress" is necessarily >> a >> display of a conscious choice on the part of the animal under >> observation to >> act in a manner to inflict harm on another. >> >> Along those lines, what happenned to the concept of "diematic display" >> - >> defensive posturing frequently including the component of "aggress" - >> the >> functional purpose of which was to evoke/trigger an avoidance response >> in an >> adversary? Was this concept discarded or disproven in the 30 years >> since I >> was originally >> introduced to the principle of maternal aggress as an instinctive >> defensive >> response? >> >> OBi Fox From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 21-APR-2003 11:07:10.56 To: IN%"ceann-icrc@lycos.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Introduction and Question That is interesting. At the Canadian Centre for Wolf Research, squeaking was common and always in greeting situations. I heard it in other packs, including on a number of National Geographic and BBC sequences of social interactions. This suggests to me that we are not using the term "squeak" for the same vocalization. See the Coscia and Harrington papers where the ostensive definitions are given (http://www.gadbois.org/canireferences.html). A squeak is not a squeal... maybe that is the confusion. The mouth licking is a known greeting gesture, including in domestic dogs. What do you mean by "If a wolf at wolf Park is being used as a squeek toy by another wolf, Pat may decide to remove it from the pack."? A wolf used as a squeak toy by another wolf? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Behavioural endocrinology and ethology. http://www.Gadbois.org/ On Monday, April 21, 2003, at 01:49 PM, ceann lambert wrote: > In my 16 years of being around wolves, I have never heard one squeek > while greeting me or each other Wolves greet face to face. There is > always a licking of the corner s of the mouth. This greeting behavior > probably comes from the food begging behavior of licking the corners > of adults mouths to get them to regurgitate food for them when they > are pups. It just seems to carry over to become part of the greeting > behavior. Squeeking in wolves can also trigger aggression in another > wolf. If a wolf at wolf Park is being used as a squeek toy by another > wolf, Pat may decide to remove it from the pack. > Squeeking in coyotes seems to turn off aggression in another coyote. > I have also heard a coyote squeek if I have startled it in some way. > CeAnn > > On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:58:36 > Simon Gadbois wrote: >> The most common distinction in the litterature is between "reactive" >> or >> "hostile" or "annoyance-motivated" and "proactive" or "instrumental" >> or >> "incentive-motivated" aggression. This basic distinction was offered >> by >> Dodge & Coie (1987; they often get the credit for it), Hinde (1970) >> and >> Zillmann (1979) respectively. Unfortunately, "intent to harm" can be a >> component of both. >> My Latin dictionary (I had to do Latin...) defines "aggressio" as >> "lesser attack; action of setting about/undertaking (a task)"; I see >> no >> reference to "moving towards", but that could be shortcomings of the >> dictionary. >> As for squeaking: wolves squeak all the time (see publications by >> Coscia and Harrington from here). In fact, it is their most common >> greeting vocalization (quite high pitch). >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. >> Behavioural endocrinology and ethology. >> http://www.Gadbois.org/ >> >> >> >> On Sunday, April 20, 2003, at 09:57 PM, OBi Fox wrote: >> >>> Would someone please provide the overall scientific/behavioral >>> definition of >>> aggression being used in these discussions? >>> >>> Specifically, I am looking for >>> the research work establishing the link between "aggress" (latin, >>> movement >>> toward) and the cognitive state of "intent to harm". In other >>> words, >>> the >>> data to support the common assertion that any "aggress" is >>> necessarily >>> a >>> display of a conscious choice on the part of the animal under >>> observation to >>> act in a manner to inflict harm on another. >>> >>> Along those lines, what happenned to the concept of "diematic >>> display" >>> - >>> defensive posturing frequently including the component of "aggress" - >>> the >>> functional purpose of which was to evoke/trigger an avoidance >>> response >>> in an >>> adversary? Was this concept discarded or disproven in the 30 years >>> since I >>> was originally >>> introduced to the principle of maternal aggress as an instinctive >>> defensive >>> response? >>> >>> OBi Fox From: IN%"robin@coape.co.uk" 21-APR-2003 15:16:50.52 To: IN%"JLGhmn8532@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction and Question I do not think the matter can be 'dusted off' quite so glibly. The worst cases known to me have involved dogs that have lived for years with the victims and been absolutely 'socialized'. Two things should be considered here. 1.The attack may be triggered by a sound emitted by the 'prey' but being startled by the victim may suffice. 2. The attack may be prolonged whilst the 'victim screams' The predatory attack ceases when the prey is inert. Vectoring the attack to the source of the prey noise is adaptive. If you are the predator clamping the larynx in your jaws brings stillness and silence. That is how you know your attack sequence is accomplished. In my best documented and illustrated case the lady who died had lived with the Pit Bull for 8 years from its puppyhood and with numerous people and other dogs. The attack ceased when the victim's larynx was dropped 3 yards from the body. (famous anecdotes of predatory attack relate the escape of the victim due to being suddenly very still. Vide Livingston and the Lion and Legualt and the Polar Bear. Cue hoary joke .."I am not trying to outrun the bear I am try to outrun you ..yadder yadder Ho Ho). Robin E. Walker MRCVS -----Original Message----- From: JLGhmn8532@aol.com [mailto:JLGhmn8532@aol.com] Sent: 21 April 2003 13:24 To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: Introduction and Question I feel there is something that needs to be mentioned in all of this aggressiveness 'stuff': specifically, the squeaking and shrieking of children. What does a sqeaky toy do? ...It squeaks!!! What does the dog do with a squeaky toy? ...It bites the H*LL out of it!!! What do we do? ...We encourage the behavior!!! Some common sense might need to be applied here. If the Rott is not familiar with children, shame on the owner/handler. I do believe the dog should be euthanized simply because it doesn't seem to have been properly socialized if at all. But that was already addressed, I believe. Regardless, I agree with the majority of the respondents to this situation. The Rott was poorly socialized, it at all. Owner also contributed due to ignorance and/or inattention. Happy Training!! Jeff Gehman, BS, DDH Houston, TX From: IN%"robin@coape.co.uk" 21-APR-2003 15:31:47.75 To: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "'Simon Gadbois'", IN%"ceann-icrc@lycos.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Introduction and Question Of course from the "prey's" point of view a piercing shriek might be adaptive if it startles the ( tyro or trainee ) predator sufficiently to distract and facilitate escape. Robin -----Original Message----- From: Simon Gadbois [mailto:simon@gadbois.org] Sent: 21 April 2003 18:06 To: ceann-icrc@lycos.com Cc: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: Introduction and Question That is interesting. At the Canadian Centre for Wolf Research, squeaking was common and always in greeting situations. I heard it in other packs, including on a number of National Geographic and BBC sequences of social interactions. This suggests to me that we are not using the term "squeak" for the same vocalization. See the Coscia and Harrington papers where the ostensive definitions are given (http://www.gadbois.org/canireferences.html). A squeak is not a squeal... maybe that is the confusion. The mouth licking is a known greeting gesture, including in domestic dogs. What do you mean by "If a wolf at wolf Park is being used as a squeek toy by another wolf, Pat may decide to remove it from the pack."? A wolf used as a squeak toy by another wolf? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Behavioural endocrinology and ethology. http://www.Gadbois.org/ On Monday, April 21, 2003, at 01:49 PM, ceann lambert wrote: In my 16 years of being around wolves, I have never heard one squeek while greeting me or each other Wolves greet face to face. There is always a licking of the corner s of the mouth. This greeting behavior probably comes from the food begging behavior of licking the corners of adults mouths to get them to regurgitate food for them when they are pups. It just seems to carry over to become part of the greeting behavior. Squeeking in wolves can also trigger aggression in another wolf. If a wolf at wolf Park is being used as a squeek toy by another wolf, Pat may decide to remove it from the pack. Squeeking in coyotes seems to turn off aggression in another coyote. I have also heard a coyote squeek if I have startled it in some way. CeAnn On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:58:36 Simon Gadbois wrote: The most common distinction in the litterature is between "reactive" or "hostile" or "annoyance-motivated" and "proactive" or "instrumental" or "incentive-motivated" aggression. This basic distinction was offered by Dodge & Coie (1987; they often get the credit for it), Hinde (1970) and Zillmann (1979) respectively. Unfortunately, "intent to harm" can be a component of both. My Latin dictionary (I had to do Latin...) defines "aggressio" as "lesser attack; action of setting about/undertaking (a task)"; I see no reference to "moving towards", but that could be shortcomings of the dictionary. As for squeaking: wolves squeak all the time (see publications by Coscia and Harrington from here). In fact, it is their most common greeting vocalization (quite high pitch). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Behavioural endocrinology and ethology. http://www.Gadbois.org/ On Sunday, April 20, 2003, at 09:57 PM, OBi Fox wrote: Would someone please provide the overall scientific/behavioral definition of aggression being used in these discussions? Specifically, I am looking for the research work establishing the link between "aggress" (latin, movement toward) and the cognitive state of "intent to harm". In other words, the data to support the common assertion that any "aggress" is necessarily a display of a conscious choice on the part of the animal under observation to act in a manner to inflict harm on another. Along those lines, what happenned to the concept of "diematic display" - defensive posturing frequently including the component of "aggress" - the functional purpose of which was to evoke/trigger an avoidance response in an adversary? Was this concept discarded or disproven in the 30 years since I was originally introduced to the principle of maternal aggress as an instinctive defensive response? OBi Fox From: IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com" "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc." 21-APR-2003 19:01:26.80 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Baghdad's Zoo Animals Hello everyone, As you may already know, a deplorable animal welfare situation has developed at zoos in Baghdad as a result of the war. For more information about ways in which you may assist, please contact me privately. Thank you, Vivian Singer-Ferris info@kerwoodwolf.com From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 22-APR-2003 05:57:32.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology group" CC: Subj: RE: A question. Has anyone seriously tried to measure how much difference there is likely to be between an individual animal's normal behaviour (normal for that particular animal) and its behaviour while at a vet's surgery? I don't think aggression is the only problem - I have one cat who acts functionally blind and won't even stand up because she is so afraid (the vet's comment being that she felt pretty silly prescribing for an arthritic limp when she'd never seen any evidence that the patient could walk at all.) ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"gt7684b@prism.gatech.edu" "Charlotte G. Slater" 22-APR-2003 10:44:18.71 To: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: A question. Quoting "R. Rodd" : > Has anyone seriously tried to measure how much difference there is likely > to be between an individual animal's normal behaviour (normal for that > particular animal) and its behaviour while at a vet's surgery? I don't > think aggression is the only problem - I have one cat who acts > functionally blind and won't even stand up because she is so afraid (the > vet's comment being that she felt pretty silly prescribing for an > arthritic limp when she'd never seen any evidence that the patient could > walk at all.) R. Rodd (above) had an interesting point. I have a feral cat whom I raised from birth, and though he responds most favorably to me, he is by all intents and purposes feral. He will not tolerate being held, and all contact has to be on his terms. When at home, bathing requires sedation, so does nail clipping or any other first aid. He turns into a complete wildcat if anyone besides me tries to interact with him. But when I take this crazy cat to the vet, he becomes effectively tame and compliant. So tame, in fact, that the vet remarks on what a sweet cat I have! When we arrive home, he is back to his old self again. Although my story is anectdotal, I believe that discerning between the behavior at the vet clinic and at home would be a terrific study to conduct. -- ~Charlotte Greer Slater School of Psychology GEORGIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY The cat in my lap said: "si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes" From: IN%"cchadwick@spca.bc.ca" "Christa Chadwick" 22-APR-2003 10:46:28.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction and Question Everyone, Thank you all so much for your informative (and quick!) responses. Just to clarify - we don't have any information that says that the young girl made any noise while she was running, so the theories that the dog reacted, in a predatory fashion, to her shrieks, squeaks, screams, etc. cannot be proven. She did (obviously!) start to make noise once the dog was biting her legs, which certainly could have escalated the attack. From the well-written and well-thought-out responses I have received to this one post, I am looking forward to participating in this list. Thank you all again! Christa _____ Christa Chadwick, Companion Animal Management Instructor BC SPCA 1245 East 7th Avenue Vancouver, BC V5T 1R1 Fax. 604.709.6715 Mobile. 604.230.1611 www.spca.bc.ca cchadwick@spca.bc.ca BC Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals "Speaking For Animals" From: IN%"hmcmurra@elp.rr.com" "heather mcmurray" 22-APR-2003 14:16:59.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: horse teeth question Hi, what does it mean when a horse grinds its teeth when you are grooming it? A quiet grind, like a purr. Heather From: IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk" "Francis Burton" 22-APR-2003 14:54:14.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: horse teeth question At 14:16 22/04/03 -0600, heather mcmurray wrote: >Hi, what does it mean when a horse grinds its teeth when you are grooming it? >A quiet grind, like a purr. Heather In my experience, teeth grinding indicates irritation or pain. Is the horse generally relaxed? If so, it may just be a result of chewing movements. Does the horse only grind its teeth during grooming? Always? Francis From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 23-APR-2003 11:00:04.44 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: stuck dog Does anyone have information on 'stuck dogs', i.e.. dogs that get stuck on a point or staring at a toy that doesn't move? Julie Alexander From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 23-APR-2003 12:13:36.67 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dog behavior--guarding and excitement Bonding and guarding We have 2 - 16 month old Tibetan Mastiff/Anatolian cross bitches. They were raised near goats but not with them before coming here last July. Since then they have lived with several goats and are fine with them but didn't seem completely bonded. Yesterday, one doe dropped 2 kids. The female who is usually lower in status--gives up food or bones to the other, seems to be bonding more heavily to the doe and kids than the other. The 2 bitches have been good as yard guardians. Ariel, the lower status bitch, alarm barks a bit earlier and is more social with people. She also seems less resilient to stress. Scirroco lets Ariel bark first but gives the impression that she would do more if a human or critter would cross the fence. As they mature late, we are reserving judgement all around. Ariel is now acting quite nurturing to the doe and kids, licking and wagging her tail softly. When Scirroco tries to approach, Ariel very strongly tells her to back off, far more assertively than ever with food or a bone. It will be interesting to see how the 2 bitches change in the coming days and weeks as the other does drop kids. This again doesn't seem based in possession guarding but in familial type bonding. Last night we had coyotes singing near us and the dogs blew with an intensity they have not had before. Overexcitement and early experiences Our male Dobermans do not usually take part in puppy training other than to teach them not to jump on them or try to take food or bones. The bitches do quite a bit of behavior modifying when the pups get rowdy and puppy play turns into anger. But our male Beauceron does a share of puppy discipline and is also very nurturing and protective towards the puppies. He puts up with far more in play than our Dobe males do, permitting tail tugging and other liberties. He also will interfere with the puppy arguments. He will pick out the aggressor and bump him or her hard with his muzzle or snap while grumbling, then when the pup yipes, he backs off and glares. He will watch the offender for several minutes, continuing to glare and following the pup around to until he/she gives ground or drops into a sit or down and holds still. He's been excellent at preparing the pups for long sits and downs. If the pup starts to squirm or move, he'll grumble or approaches with another hold still! glare. When he thinks the pup has calmed down enough and shown proper respect, he either invites play, licks the face or ears or relaxes his posture, turns away and moves off. It's quite clear to the pups when they are released from the 'stay'. The discussion of prey drive, squeak toys and squealing or crying triggering unacceptable behavior seems part of a wider spread problem of dogs becoming overly excited. One co-owned bitch puppy is back here for a few days to calm her down. In hindsight, we regret letting this owner take the pup at 9 weeks. She has another dog, a livestock guardian who does the job of keeping coyotes away but is rather timid in other ways. This woman has also had a lot of experience with cattle/horse herding dogs along with years of working with livestock. She is generally animal savvy but this puppy is different enough from her previous dogs that she didn't calibrate the behaviors well. We thought she could keep the puppy more balanced than she did. The puppy loves human attention and is cute enough that she manipulates many people into fawning over her. Lots of butt wiggling, licking, fast panting, play bowing, and general excitement when people make eye contact, talk to her or pet her. The owner tends to talk to the pup in a high pitched voice with a very fast tempo, talking baby talk and petting the pup when she gets into this excited mode. The owner likes an animated animal and didn't see that she was creating over excitement. Anytime the pup showed soliciting behaviors, she was fawned on for at least a few moments even if the owner really needed to be doing other things. Recently the owner and her husband were upset because their oldest cat was dying. Their grieving meant they didn't have the time or energy to put into the pup as they had. She started to act up and chase the other cats which really upset the owners. The pup started to get that wide eyed, non stop panting with corners of the mouth pulled back, stiff legged pace behavior that to me says the dog is so excited its brain isn't working. The dog may be frustrated, a bit nervous or having fun but this state is dangerous to the animal. Like a child having so much fun, that s/he isn't being careful, this state can set up a dog for an accident or perhaps to bite. The dog isn't thinking, it's mindlessly rushing about and reacting automatically. It is overly confident, overly bold and utterly foolish. It thinks nothing bad can happen because it has been a hot house flower prevented from learning that reality can bite. The pups we raised seldom got into this state as we didn't reinforce excessively excited soliciting behaviors. The pups weren't petted or acknowledge unless standing quietly, sitting and making eye contact and the body motions were relaxed. Overly boisterous play was reprimanded either by us or most frequently by the adult dogs. This puppy came down to earth quite quickly simply by letting her play with the other pups who are here--getting tag teamed from several sides meant she had to pay attention. Also jumping on us was reprimanded and when she wiggled all around begging for attention we ignored her, no eye contact, no talking, no petting. She tried to steal an adult male's treat and he loudly snarled, snapped and pinned her down without hurting anything but her feelings. She rapidly learned to watch out for the big guys and that pestering us was useless. When she slowed down and was quiet, we made eye contact with a soft smile, quietly told her she was being a good quiet girl and gave her slow stroking pets and ear rubbing. Nothing energizing. She is now acting just as calmly as the rest of the pups. She did a nice training session with good heeling, sit and down stays with the distraction of other dogs working around her. When she goes back home, the owner and I are going to have a session about the owner's behavior, how to change her voice and bodylanguage and prevent the over excited state. The owner said she is more used to pumping up an animal's ego than toning it down. This pup didn't need pumping up; she needed to maintain calm behaviors. The pups we have here are confident, curious but not stupidly over bold, playful but not manic, careful but not inhibited. I spent a week in Seattle with one who was well behaved in a strange home, did fine with the other dogs she met and played with, was friendly with strangers but not overly solicitous. She is not used to cats but responded quickly when told to leave alone the ones we saw at a friend's home. She would play with the other dogs, or amuse herself with toys and nap at my feet. No chewing, pacing, whining, digging, excessive barking or signs of stress. She would walk up to ask for attention knowing she was likely to get it yet didn't try to demand it. The friends I visited all commented on how well behaved and mature she was for a six month old dog. We think it is far too common for many owners to inadvertently create overly excitable dogs. Too many squeak toys, too much fast paced play and games, not enough down time and rewarding of cute but inappropriate behavior. A 6 month old puppy can behave acceptably in public without acting like it grew up in a boot camp. We believe this is far better for the lifelong well being of the dog than overexcitement which primes the body to over react with excess adrenaline and other biochemicals. It's easier to create an adrenaline addict than it is to cure. An animal can learn to handle greater levels of excitement without going over the threshold into stupid mania. This requires learning how to split attention. Many humans have trouble with it. Driving in traffic when the roads are wet or icy requires split attention. Using a cell phone may split the attention too far and lead to an accident. Starting with early puppy play, dogs can learn to have fun, get excited and still pay attention to the owner and the environment. We do rough house and play tug of war with our dogs but keep the energy level down below a critical threshold. It's hard to describe. We learned most about it from observing when the bitches would step in and make the pups calm down. The play growls, barks and wrestling reaches a certain pitch and at least one pup is likely to turn play into a fight. There is also a change in muscle tension. Play fighting has a relaxed and loose appearance and when it starts to go near threshold, bodies tense up. When roughhousing with them if we keep our body tension loose and the speed below threshold we can teach them a lot of bite work for protection work later without a problem. If the puppy tries to increase either speed or tension and gets close to going over threshold we will freeze, say no and enforce it if necessary. Usually no and a stern look is enough. When the puppy or adult dog has relaxed enough, we can start again. The dogs learn to split their attention between what they want and what we permit. They can learn full mouth bites on bare arms or legs without leaving a mark. We've never needed to do muzzle work to keep a dog from being sleeve happy. We can do sleeve work with dogs in a playful fashion and when they are old enough, teach them to do sleeve work with serious hard bites. And because we have spent a lot of time keeping them below an overly excited threshold, getting control work is easy. We can bring them up to a high level of excitement and bring them back down. American culture seems to be seeking more and more excitement and adrenalizing behaviors. I think it is often getting passed on to our dogs without them being taught enough self control. How many dogs in shelters are there for overly excited behaviors? How many are there because they were boring, dull, too low keyed? How much chewing, barking, separation anxiety, fearfulness, bad manners and outright dangerous behavior is due to dogs being pumped up by owners who think they are making the puppy happy? How can pet owners be educated about what to do and not to do? From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 23-APR-2003 15:52:47.26 To: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Dog behavior--guarding and excitement At 11:14 AM 4/23/03 -0700, you wrote: >Bonding and guarding >We have 2 - 16 month old Tibetan Mastiff/Anatolian cross bitches. They >were raised near goats but not with them before coming here last July. >Since then they have lived with several goats and are fine with them but >didn't seem completely bonded. > >Yesterday, one doe dropped 2 kids. The female who is usually lower in >status--gives up food or bones to the other, seems to be bonding more >heavily to the doe and kids than the other. The 2 bitches have been >good as yard guardians. Ariel, the lower status bitch, alarm barks a >bit earlier and is more social with people. She also seems less >resilient to stress. Scirroco lets Ariel bark first but gives the >impression that she would do more if a human or critter would cross the >fence. As they mature late, we are reserving judgement all around. > >Ariel is now acting quite nurturing to the doe and kids, licking and >wagging her tail softly. When Scirroco tries to approach, Ariel very >strongly tells her to back off, far more assertively than ever with food >or a bone. It will be interesting to see how the 2 bitches change in the >coming days and weeks as the other does drop kids. This again doesn't >seem based in possession guarding but in familial type bonding. Last >night we had coyotes singing near us and the dogs blew with an intensity >they have not had before. > Hi Julie, There is an alternative explanation to what is going on here. Remember the predatory behavior chain: orient->stalk->chase-> grab bite-> crushing (killing) bite--> dissecting bite-->consume. According to Dr. Coppinger, we have bred dogs to favor or have limited expression of portions of this chain. Dissecting bite is the ability to tear into a carcass before consuming it. Dr. Coppinger found that while his border collies had this bite, his guardian dogs did not. So if he put a stillbirth calf in with the collies, they could consume it, but if he put a stillbirth calf in with his guardian dogs, they needed the carcass to be first opened with a knife before they would start consuming it. So an alternate explanation for your dog's behavior is that it is not bonded with the goats at all. She would prefer to eat them, but hasn't figured out how to yet. She is licking them because she can't yet figure out how to eat them and is guarding her potential dinner from the other dog. I could be wrong about this, but I have seen the gently wagging tail and licking before and I learned the hard way that it was *not* bonding, it was feeding behavior. In order to bond a livestock guardian dog with the animal it is to protect requires an extensive socialization with that species during the critical periods of socialization in order for the correct patterns of behavior to develop. Properly reared guardian pups live in the pens with the sheep 24-7 during these critical periods. So I suspect that your dogs are not and will never bond with goats. If they fail to kill and eat them it is because they don't have a strong, intact predatory sequence. If I were a betting person, I would say that it is just a matter of time before one of them figures some portion of it out. Personally and in totally unscientific empathy, I will say that I sure wouldn't want to be those goats right now..... Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS From: IN%"ceann-icrc@lycos.com" 23-APR-2003 17:19:58.09 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Dog behavior--guarding and excitement On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:52:44 Janice Willard wrote: .> >Hi Julie, > . > >In order to bond a livestock guardian dog with the animal it is to protect >requires an extensive socialization with that species during the critical >periods of socialization in order for the correct patterns of behavior to >develop. Properly reared guardian pups live in the pens with the sheep >24-7 during these critical periods. Also, livestock guarding dogs should not be sociaized to people at all. When Dr. Klinghammer was working with Ray on the livestock guarding dog project, we had Italian Marimmas (not sure of that spelling)at Wolf Park. We were not allowed to enteract with the dogs at all except for regular care like feeding. No petting and no talking to them. Their companions were the sheep. That was their job. I think their territorial behavior was the key to the guarding. CeAnn From: IN%"espinay@bigpond.com" "Tracy" 23-APR-2003 17:53:18.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog behavior--guarding and excitement <<> CeAnn I am sorry but this is a total fallacy and an aproach that has caused many problems. Working LGDs, while living with their stock need to be socialised to accept handling, vet management (and removal from the flock when necessary for such care, movement of the flock (or transfer to another flock), general care such as grooming and so forth. They should be easily caught and handled by those managing them. Many a working LGD has also taken on dual roles including that of showdog. A look at the list of past winners of the French (RACP) Pyrenean National (see pics at http://www.pyrenean-journal.com/Pyrenean_Journal.html for example turns up dogs that were simply pulled from their flocks and taken to the show. More info on the management of livestock guardians can be found here: www.lgd.org (note the article titled "first lambing and the young livestock guardian" in the Library section). Those wanting some interesting reading and an interesting look into the life/behaviour of working LGDs may want to read "The Daemon Sisters and other LGD happenings" By Robert Denlinger also on that webpage Tracy Bassett Espinay Pyrenean Mountain Dogs Murrumbateman, Australia espinay@bigpond.com From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 23-APR-2003 19:39:28.21 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog behavior--guarding and excitement Janice, That's the Coppinger's view point but quite a few ranchers and small farmers have contrary evidence. The link I posted before on the use of Great Pyrenees against bears showed that the dogs would defend livestock they had only brief exposure to and were not imprinted with. The Coppingers stated that LGD's didn't actively engage predators in a fight. Not so. Again the link on G. P.'s showed the dogs actively tag teamed the bears. One G.P. breeder spoke of 5 GP's that killed a European Brown Bear by tag teaming the bear while one went in for a killing bite on the spine. http://www.adbsys.no/nphk/1994_Pasvik_Forside.asp?Language=ENGLISH Our veterinarian saw 3 Akbash attack and tear a coyote into 3 pieces. He was quite impressed that they severed the spine and tore off a hind leg. The sheep rancher we got our Akbash bitch from has found dead coyotes. His earlier Anatolian male also adopted a neighbor's horse that was kept in a paddock about 100 yards from the sheep. The horse's owner went out to get the horse one day and was knocked over by the dog. The sheep were grazing several hundred yards away. I do not believe that LGD's are being purely territorial. If so, they would be useless when flocks migrate. As far as maternal or familial bonding, one of our retired vet's showed us pictures of his sister's Doberman bitch, spayed, never bred, who adopted an abandoned fawn. The doe had triplets and left the last one. The dog's owners were walking in the orchard and the bitch found the fawn, still wet and with placenta next to her. She started making chittering noises, cleaned the fawn, ate the placenta and from that moment the fawn was hers. She developed a small amount of milk, the fawn nursed off of her and they would nestle together by the fire. The fawn grew up and brought back her offspring to meet the dog and owners. 3 generations of Dobermans met her and her offspring with no dogs ever chasing or treating the deer like dinner. One woman in Alaska with bearded Tibetans, reports a similar change in her 7 dogs when she got sheep and goats. The youngest dogs were over a year and within a few days of the arrival of the livestock, significantly changed in tone when wolves were nearby. The only dog who didn't change was her oldest dog who is a couch potato. One of our Doberman/Akbash F1 males has acted quite submissively to our goats and shows strong evidence of bonding to them and he was over 3 years old when he first saw them. No evidence of treating them like dinner on the hoof. From a yahoo group on LGD's, there are similar reports that the imprinting window is more variable than the Coppingers describe. Dogs raises with one species will guard very different species--goats/ostriches. And also that some dogs make good LGD's and some littermates do not. Even when raised and imprinted the same way, some wash out. And some raised 'wrong' will activate the instincts when exposed to livestock. An important part does seem to be making sure that the dogs never get much opportunity to engage in chase behaviors while young. There also seems to be quite a bit of variance as to how much human socialization affects livestock guarding ability. One rancher with 2 Tibetans said one dog slept on the front porch and the other on the back porch and were very effective at keeping coyotes out of the barn and paddocks. We have had ranchers donate dead cattle and horses to us. And none of our dogs will touch the carcasses until we cut it open. That includes Dobermans, Beaucerons, LGD's and crosses. That part seems quite reliable. These dogs have been with our goats for almost a year and shown no sign of chasing or other prey drive behavior. They give way to the goats and will belly up if butted. The main difference now is a level of attentiveness. When the kids start to bleat for mom to feed them, they start to whine like a bitch whose puppies sound stressed. Sorry Janice, the experts don't always have enough experience to make the generalizations they do. Julie From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 23-APR-2003 19:39:28.48 To: IN%"katpad@katbox.fsnet.co.uk" "F J & K E O'Flynn", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: stuck dog Thanks Kate, I forgot where I heard about this and found the reference. Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: "F J & K E O'Flynn" To: "Julie Alexander" Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 1:47 PM Subject: Re: stuck dog > There is some interesting info in "Dogs" by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger on > Border Collie ''Eye-Stalk". > > Kindest regards, > > Kate O'Flynn, DipCABT From: IN%"lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Lewis=20Kirkham?=" 23-APR-2003 20:35:52.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology group" CC: Subj: Maternal aggression follow-up. G'day everyone, Just wanted to give a little more information I gained from the Great Dane biting the vet nurse. The owners say that the dog has only had aggression before when it had a previous litter. Unfortunately the owners did disobey instructions and brought the pups with the bitch. I am not sure if the nurse was aware of the previous aggression history but she says she tried not to block the bitches view of her pups. She says there were no warning signs of the impending bite. Health-wise; the nurse has since been re-admitted to hospital for the last week. She has had 2 operations and still needs some skin grafts. So things not going so well there unfortunately. The owners have offered to pay all bills and also will euthanase the dog if the nurse requests. My opinion (I think) is that the bitch should undergo a proper qualified behavioural consultation and if it is only maternal aggression then be neutered. If it has other forms of aggression as well then, euthanasia. This is my opinion and I guess it is up to the nurse in the end. I don't want to create an inflammatory and emotional debate but would be interested if anyone had further comments. Thanks again for your help. Regards Lewis Kirkham BVSc MRVCS http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 24-APR-2003 06:52:58.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology group" CC: Subj: RE: Maternal aggression follow-up. Lewis Kirkham: Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 7:35 PM > Health-wise; the nurse has since been re-admitted to > hospital for the last week. She has had 2 operations > and still needs some skin grafts. So things not going > so well there unfortunately. margory: This is bad all round; I'm sorry for the nurse's condition. It's too bad the owners didn't listen and the nurse stepped in the middle (not blocking the dam's vision I think is not a defense). Is anybody filing a lawsuit? Has there been press about this that has had an impact on business at the vet hospital? -margory cohen San Francisco From: IN%"da13y@hotmail.com" "daisy berthoud" 24-APR-2003 10:59:35.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dog ethogram dear all, i am also relatively new on here but have enjoyed the very informative discussions a lot. as backgrounds of participants vary greatly the numerous points of view and sources reflect this. my questions are the following: - does anyone know of the existance of a dog ethogram ? if yes, would it be possible to indicate the reference ? i would also be interested in wolf ethograms. - has anyone been involved in the validation of temperament assessments run in rescue centres ? usually the dogs are tested, a decision is made about the animals' future, but hardly ever anyone goes back to the new owners to see how well the testing predicted the dogs' actual behaviour. i hope that i am wrong and will find similar studies done in the past. the latter will be the subject of my third year research dissertation (BSc animal behaviour with minor in psychology). i am looking forward to your replies and thank you in advance. daisy berthoud anglia polytechnic university, u.k. _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From: IN%"ceann-icrc@lycos.com" 24-APR-2003 11:05:29.48 To: IN%"da13y@hotmail.com" "daisy berthoud", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dog ethogram Wolf Park has a wolf ethogram for sale. Their tele. number is 1-765-567-2265. CeAnn -- On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:59:17 daisy berthoud wrote: > > > >dear all, > >i am also relatively new on here but have enjoyed the very informative >discussions a lot. as backgrounds of participants vary greatly the numerous >points of view and sources reflect this. > >my questions are the following: > >- does anyone know of the existance of a dog ethogram ? if yes, would it be >possible to indicate the reference ? i would also be interested in wolf >ethograms. > >- has anyone been involved in the validation of temperament assessments run >in rescue centres ? usually the dogs are tested, a decision is made about >the animals' future, but hardly ever anyone goes back to the new owners to >see how well the testing predicted the dogs' actual behaviour. i hope that i >am wrong and will find similar studies done in the past. > >the latter will be the subject of my third year research dissertation (BSc >animal behaviour with minor in psychology). > >i am looking forward to your replies and thank you in advance. > > >daisy berthoud >anglia polytechnic university, u.k. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger >http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger > > From: IN%"lewiskirkham@yahoo.com.au" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Lewis=20Kirkham?=" 24-APR-2003 18:21:21.05 To: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology group" CC: Subj: RE: Maternal aggression follow-up. Dear Margory, I don't believe that this has affected business at the practice. As far as affecting the staff - very much so. I certainly think confidence in handling animals is reduced and all concerned are much more cautious. As far as lawsuits, I really don't know. I am going to see her in hospital today so might learn something new. Regards, Lewis --- margory cohen wrote: > Lewis Kirkham: > Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 7:35 PM > > > Health-wise; the nurse has since been re-admitted > to > > hospital for the last week. She has had 2 > operations > > and still needs some skin grafts. So things not > going > > so well there unfortunately. > > margory: > > This is bad all round; I'm sorry for the nurse's > condition. It's too bad the > owners didn't listen and the nurse stepped in the > middle (not blocking the > dam's vision I think is not a defense). > > Is anybody filing a lawsuit? > Has there been press about this that has had an > impact on business at the > vet hospital? > > -margory cohen > > San Francisco > > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 24-APR-2003 21:03:10.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology group" CC: Subj: RE: Maternal aggression follow-up. Lewis Kirkham: Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 5:21 PM > I don't believe that this has affected business at the > practice. As far as affecting the staff - very much > so. I certainly think confidence in handling animals > is reduced and all concerned are much more cautious. > As far as lawsuits, I really don't know. I am going to > see her in hospital today so might learn something > new. margory here: Dear Lewis, Thank you for yours. Thought about this today actually, with hope from a distance that reason and common sense will prevail, and that your town isn't as lawsuit-happy as some parts of the U.S. I also couldn't help wonder -- is the dam so special a specimen that breeding her really makes a contribution to the breed? That could be rhetorical, but it did occur to me. And this has nothing to do with what happens to be my own opposition to mandatory spay/neuter legislation; rather, I am devoted to truly the best in breeding. My day job this week has been busy in a way to limit on-line time, which may be good (certainly detractors and critics would be pleased), but it does give one a chance to remember what criteria used to be for who got bred. And when bites were justified, or not. And when people and creatures lived closer to the natural world and common sense really was. Good luck. Appreciate how you have initiated and read and written back in this discussion. -margory cohen Margory Cohen San Francisco, California From: IN%"hmcmurra@elp.rr.com" "heather mcmurray" 26-APR-2003 02:13:25.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: OT: prion disease can adapt to new species - slow and difficult to detect Hi, since many on this list work with animals used as feed/meat products, I thought this might be interesting - although about 1 1/2 yrs old.... Heather ---------------------------------------------- Wednesday, Oct. 17, 2001 Jeff Minerd (301) 402-1663 jminerd@niaid.nih.gov Study Examines How Prion Disease Adapts to New Species Although scientists believe that mad cow disease spread from cattle to people in a few instances in the United Kingdom, they know very little about how that happened. To better understand how diseases like mad cow jump and adapt to a new species, researchers at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) examined the process by which a disease called scrapie transfers from hamsters to mice. "We found that the adaption is a prolonged and subtle process, and the early stages of it are very difficult to detect," says Bruce Chesebro, M.D., senior study author and researcher at NIAID's Rocky Mountain Laboratories (RML) in Montana. The results of his team's work are reported in the current issue of the Journal of Virology. Scrapie and mad cow are examples of the rare, mysterious and fatal brain diseases known as transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs). Also known as prion diseases, they include chronic wasting disease in deer and elk and Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease in humans. The hallmark of TSE diseases is misshapen protein molecules that clump together and accumulate in brain tissue. Normal forms of these molecules, called prion protein, reside on the surface of brain cells, although no one knows their proper function. Abnormal prion proteins are the likely cause of the brain damage that occurs in TSE diseases. Scientists believe the misshapen prion proteins somehow induce normal prion proteins to form incorrectly. These abnormal molecules may spread the disease to new individuals. Alternatively, some scientists still believe that the disease may be initiated by a virus. Dr. Chesebro and his team first inoculated mice with a strain of hamster scrapie, then watched the mice closely over a period of years. This group of mice never became sick, but the scientists found that the hamster scrapie agent persisted in these mice for years at levels too low for standard lab tests to detect. The scientists detected the hamster scrapie agent by injecting brain extracts from the mice into hamsters and watching to see if the hamsters came down with scrapie. "All of the hamsters got scrapie, so we know that all of the mice were infected and carriers of the disease," says Richard Race, D.V.M., lead study author and RML researcher. "They didn't carry enough of the scrapie agent to show up in a lab test, but they did carry enough to re-infect the hamsters." "We can't be certain these results would apply to other forms of TSE disease and other species," Dr. Chesebro explains, "but this finding suggests that TSE diseases may be more widespread than we thought. So we need to be more vigilant in monitoring the spread of TSE diseases. In particular, we need more sensitive diagnostic tests." Researchers at RML and other institutions around the world are already working on such laboratory tests, he notes. The research also showed that, under the right conditions, scrapie gradually adapted to cause illness in mice over a period of one to two years. In the original group of infected mice, the scrapie agent never caused illness. But when the scientists transferred the agent from this original group of mice to additional groups, the disease grew stronger over time, making the newly infected mice sick. "The scrapie seemed to have learned how to deal with this new species, and it worked much better," says Dr. Race. "It replicated faster in additional rounds of mice and even became more lethal to them." Furthermore, scrapie adapted in different ways in individual mice: the incubation periods varied widely, and the disease affected different parts of the brain. "It was not always the same pattern of adaptation," Dr. Chesebro says. "As the disease spread, there was a fanning out of many possibilities." The researchers say their results might lead public health officials to reconsider the practice of giving animals feed made from the byproducts of other animals. Some evidence suggests that cattle in the United Kingdom contracted mad cow when they ate feed made from the bone meal of sheep infected with scrapie. Cows are no longer given such feed, but other farm animals are, the researchers say. "Because we have further confirmed that prion disease can adapt to new species, and because we've shown that process is slow and difficult to detect, it may be time to rethink this practice," says Dr. Race. ### Reference: R Race et al. Long-term subclinical carrier state precedes scrapie replication and adaptation in a resistant species: analogies to human BSE/vCJD. Journal of Virology 75(21):10073-89 (2001). From: IN%"hmcmurra@elp.rr.com" "heather mcmurray" 26-APR-2003 13:44:14.66 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: looking for an explanation Hi, a friend asked me to post this for possible explanation. She can't tell if one bunny wants to be friendly or not - "You'd think LB [Little Bunny] would avoid Jayne[a rabbit], especially since Jayne has knocked him sideways on three seperate occasions. But every day, afterLB goes and gets his head boxed and his nose nipped( he always starts it); he lays out beside Jayne at trhe cage wall;and leaves a nest a ND [Netherland dwarf rabbit] poops; grooms Jayne's face; flops against Jayne; and rolls whenever Jayne peed; you'd think they were the *best* of bunny friends...until, within the hour, somebun nips somebun's nose, and the whole cycle starts again. I can accept that my buns are just weird. I can accept that LB has waaaay more guts than sense.But if anybody's got a more scientific explaination ( for either of these!) I'd love to hear it! BTW: LB is (mostly) bonded with Zander, my meek little Dutch. They get playtime together, and get along just great. Nevertheless, LB still opts to spend at least half of his time getting smacked around by/sucking up to Jayne instead of playing w/ Xander." From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" 28-APR-2003 17:43:56.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: captive wolves - mortality data Dear all, I'd like to take advantage of all the *wolf people* on the list for some information. I'm looking for disease and mortality data on captive wolves who are fed raw animal carcasses (road-kill, etc) and the disease and mortality data, especially regarding cancer. Any help would be deeply appreciated. My searches thus far have turned up data on longevity rather than illnesses and causes of death. Kindest regards, Bill Campbell BehavioRx Systems PO Box 1658 Grants Pass, OR 97528 http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/ From: IN%"Lorenz.Gygax@fat.admin.ch" 29-APR-2003 03:54:43.44 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: New member of the list Dear applied ethologists, I have recently subscribed to the applied-ethology list and as is = custom would like to introduce myself quickly. I have just started to work as a postdoc at the Center for proper = housing of ruminants and pigs of the Swiss Veterinary Office. I am mainly involved = in the advising of PhD students but soon will start with some of my own projects. In these, I will be looking at gait related behaviour and = flooring in dairy cows and it is planed to look into cow social behaviour as an indicator of the quality of housing conditions. I have a basic training as an ethologist and did a master in = primatology (cognition), I did my PhD at an applied maths department, analysing = dolphin social structure, where I got a sound knowledge of statistics. I have = worked as a statistician in the pharmaceutical sector and during the last = year, I did a postdoc using individual based computer simulations to study behaviour. For more information you can also check out: http://www.proximate-biology.ch/lgygax/lgygax.html I am looking forward to interesting discussions on the list. Regards, Lorenz -=20 Lorenz Gygax Tel: +41 52 368 33 84 / lorenz.gygax@fat.admin.ch =20 Center for proper housing of ruminants and pigs Swiss Veterinary Office FAT, CH-8356 T=E4nikon / Switzerland Fax : +41 52 365 11 90 / Tel: +41 52 368 31 31 From: IN%"Amanda.Kobelt@nre.vic.gov.au" 29-APR-2003 19:28:45.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: abnormal behaviour in captive canids Hi all I am nearing the end of my PhD on the behaviour and welfare of dogs confined to suburban backyards in Australia. I am trying to complete an area of my literature review on abnormal behaviour in confined animals and was wondering if anyone had any information on abnormal behaviour (stereotypies etc) in confined/captive canids. Especially in large enclosures as opposed to small pens. Thanks Amanda Kobelt From: IN%"dognponyshow@msn.com" "Dognponyshow MCGEE" 30-APR-2003 09:52:23.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: messages I have received no messages from the list with the exception of a reply by Dr Appleby regarding cattle avoiding urine soaked grasses. I know there has been a thread about an aggressive mother dog that I really would have like to read. Please help me get back into getting all the postings! Kasie McGee From: IN%"deestanford@equinebehaviour.fsnet.co.uk" 30-APR-2003 10:27:53.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Equus Insights Symposium I thought some of you may be interested in this. Equus Insights Symposium 19th & 20th July 2003 The Unicorn Trust Gloucestershire, UK Equine Insights have organised a symposium with a vision of providing information into the ways in which the multi-facetted network of equine professionals can work together to support the horse on physical, mental & emotional levels By bringing like-minded people together, the symposium hopes to encourage the forging of strong links between professionals to promote integrated & holistic approaches, creating a better life for the horse. Delegates are invited to attend from equine behaviour and complementary therapy backgrounds or people who just believe in the importance of positive reinforcement and holistic well-being for horses. The symposium is limited to only 60 delegate places and will be supporting number of equine charities. The delegate fee is £100 inclusive of refreshments and lunch. For a full programme please e-mail your postal address to equineinsights@fsmail.net Regards Dee Stanford __________________________________________________________________________ Join Freeserve http://www.freeserve.com/time/ Winner of the 2003 Internet Service Providers' Association awards for Best Unmetered ISP and Best Consumer Application.