From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 15-APR-1997 15:43:48.20 To: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: odd dog?? >Dear Robin > >> The dog had a violent bout of diarrhoea and at the same time >> developed anal furunculosis. I began to exhibit very frequent >> defaecation postures (making as if to pass a stool but not >> straining strenously). > >How did your family and neighbours respond to this? > >Mike > I am not sure I should stoop to anwer this...but I suppose I must try and scoop up my typoos. Robin From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" 15-APR-1997 21:12:21.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: E-mail Dr.K.L.Overall Thank you to all who provided Karen's e-mail - especially Gerry, Bonnie and James. From: IN%"pkabai@ns.univet.hu" "Kabai Peter" 16-APR-1997 02:16:43.38 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ultrasound repellent? Dear Colleagues, I would like be grateful for any information on the adversive or repellent effects of sound/ultrasound on animals. I remember that back in the 70's there were high hopes to use sound as a harmless repellent. I wonder how much has surived of those early experiments. Thanks, Peter Kabai Ctr for Zoology Univ. Veterinary Science Budapest, Hungary From: IN%"dacserm@biol.unipr.it" 16-APR-1997 03:08:27.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: ultrasound repellent? At 10:35 16/04/97, applied-ethology-error@skyway.usask.ca wrote: > >Dear Colleagues, >I would like be grateful for any information on the adversive >or repellent effects of sound/ultrasound on animals. I remember >that back in the 70's there were high hopes to use sound as a >harmless repellent. I wonder how much has surived of those early >experiments. > >Thanks, >Peter Kabai >Ctr for Zoology >Univ. Veterinary Science >Budapest, Hungary > Dear Peter, Ultrasound devices were publicized in recent years in many Countries to repel rodents from buildings and even moles from gardens. Many people bought them but their efficacy was never ascertained scientifically. Regards, Davide Csermely -- _________________________________________________________________________ Davide Csermely Assoc.Prof. Vertebrate Zoology Dip. Biologia Evolutiva e Funzionale Intl. Phone: +39-521-905632 Universita` di Parma Intl. Fax : +39-521-905657 Viale delle Scienze Email: dacserm@biol.unipr.it 43100 Parma, Italy URL : http://www.biol.unipr.it _________________________________________________________________________ From: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 16-APR-1997 03:25:44.84 To: IN%"dacserm@biol.unipr.it" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: ultrasound repellent? > Ultrasound devices were publicized in recent years in many Countries to > repel rodents from buildings and even moles from gardens. Many people bought > them but their efficacy was never ascertained scientifically. There was a nice paper in Animal Welfare 1994 3, 3 showing the complete ineffectiveness of ultrasound mole scarers. Far from being repelled, the moles were more-or-less banging their noses on the device. Mike From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 16-APR-1997 07:29:41.54 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Is dog ethology scientific?.....WOOFF! Bjarne Braastad: >>> I would certainly not vote for Jeff as list moderator >>>> Oh Bjarne, pleeeeease!!! >>>Applied ethology also includes studies on pet behaviour and behaviour problems, and several issues are quite similar for pet and farm species (e.g. aggression, fear, stereotypies etc. and their causes). But I agree that this is not a list which should be open to any pet owner or dog breeder. Without some scientific background>>>> This prompts me to pose the question that I have been wondering about for some time: is dog ethology scientific? Most of the (few) mails on dogs that I have read seem to consider a dog's behaviour to result from a series of rewards and punishments, and that behaviour can be explained (and changed) through knowledge of the history of reinforcement. This reminds me of the behaviourist view that was dominant 20-50 years ago, but which has been largely superseded. It is clear that reinforcment plays a far more limited role in the organization of behaviour than was once thought, and that biological constraints on behaviour and the role of various stimuli eliciting behaviour are far more important than once thought. Are dog ethologists keeping track of changes in fundamental ethology? I doubt that many people would propose a purely reinforcement account of pig stereotypies etc, which appear to result more from some inflexibility in feeding motivational systems. Yet reinforcement accounts of dog stereotypies seem quite common. Are these "explanations" of dog behaviour problems ever checked out scientifically? Just because a clinician is able to solve a problem as a result of interpreting a behaviour in a certain way, does not mean that that interpretation is correct. It is an n=1 and alternative explanations are rarely eliminated. I realize that it may be more difficult to do scientific experiments on dogs than on farm animals. But "horse ethology" seems to have progressed quite markedly as a result of small scale experiments combined with larger epidemiological studies (e.g. Paul McGeevy's studies on stereotypies on horses). Can dog ethology do the same (or has it?). Some of the other accounts of dog behaviour seem to be verging on a quasi-freudian approach, which I imagine is totally devoid of any scientific background. Part of the reason the ISAE consciously decided to encourage greater contact with people working on pet behaviour was to encourage a more scientific approach, and for both farm animal ethology and pet animal ethology to benefit from an exchange of techniques, information etc. So far I have seen little in the mails I have read about dogs and cats to give me much encouragement. For this reason I must answer the question I posed (is dog ethology scientific) with a clear and unequivocal "WOOF!" (or am I being prejudiced?) Jeff Rushen rushenj@em.agr.ca From: IN%"k.plaxton@elsevier.nl" "Ken Plaxton" 16-APR-1997 08:18:15.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Applied Animal Behaviour Science Dear Subscriber My apologies for the slight hiccup in the delivery of the Table of = Contents information to the list. Vol. 50/3-4 (December 1996) contained = the Cumulative Author and Subject Indexes for Vols. 26-50. =20 The Table of Contents of Vol. 51/1-2 and 51/3-4 follow herewith. Regards. Ken Plaxton ******************************** Animal/Veterinary Sciences Section Elsevier Science B.V. P.O. Box 181 1000 AD Amsterdam The Netherlands Tel: 31 20 485 3332 Fax: 31 20 485 3325 E-mail: k.plaxton=40elsevier.nl ******************************** =20 Applied Animal Behaviour Science Vol. 51, No. 1-2 CONTENTS = January 1997 Winter range use by cattle of different ages in southwestern Montana J.M. Beaver and B.E. Olson (Bozeman, MT, USA)...........................= .......1 The effects of social exchange between two groups of lactating primiparous heifers on milk production, dominance order, =20 behavior and adrenocortical response=09 N. Hasegawa (Miyazaki, Japan), A. Nishiwaki, K. Sugawara and=20 I. Ito (Miyagiken, Japan)...............................................= ..........................15 Estrous expression in dairy cows and heifers (Bos taurus) following repeated PGF2*injection and choice of selecting a mounting partner=09 F. Castellanos, C.S. Galina (Mexico City, Mexico), J.A. Orihuela =20 (Cuernavaca Mor, Mexico), R. Navarro-Fierro and R. Mondrag=F3n=20 (Mexico City, Mexio)....................................................= .........................29=09 Individual differences in the behaviour of sows at the nest-site and=20 the crushing of piglets=09 B. Wechsler (Hinterkappelen, Switzerland) and D. Hegglin (Z=FCrich,=20 Switzerland)............................................................= ..............................39 The pre-farrowing behaviour of sows with operant access to space=20 for locomotion=09 M.J. Haskell, G.D. Hutson, L.G. Dickenson and S. Palmer (Parkville, Australia)..............................................................= .................................51 Use of cues by grazing animals to locate food patches: an example=20 with sheep=20 G.R. Edwards, J.A. Newman (Oxford, UK), A.J. Parsons=20 (Okehampton, UK) and J.R. Krebs (Oxford, UK)............................= .......59 Exposure to a recently mated male increases ram sexual performance D. Maina and L.S. Katz (New Brunswick, NJ, USA) ........................= ....69 Relationships among variables indexing selective grazing behavior of goats=09 D. Ganskopp (Burns, OR, USA), R. Cruz (Corvallis, OR, USA) and=20 B. Fajemisin (Zaria, Nigeria)...........................................= .......................75 Prior handling does not significantly reduce the stress response to pre-slaughter handling in broiler chickens=09 G. Kannan and J.A. Mench (College Park, MD, USA)........................= ....87 Physiological measurements after ovariohysterectomy in dogs:=20 what=27s normal?=09 B.D. Hansen, E.M. Hardie and G.S. Carroll (Raleigh, NC, USA)...........1= 01 Behavior after ovariohysterectomy in the dog: what=27s normal? E.M. Hardie, B.D. Hansen and G.S. Carroll (Raleigh, NC, USA)...........1= 11 The effect of road-type and distance transported on behaviour, physiology and carcass quality of farmed red deer (Cervus elaphus)=09 J.G. Jago, R.G. Harcourt and L.R. Matthews (Hamilton, New Zealand)................................................................= ..............................129 Effects of yarding and handling procedures on stress responses=20 of red deer stags (Cervus elaphus)=09 J.F. Carragher, J.R. Ingram and L.R. Matthews (Hamilton, New Zealand)................................................................= ..............................143 Effects of gender and group size on the time*activity budgets of=20 adult breeding ostriches (Struthio camelus) in a farming environment=09 D.E.F. McKeegan (Banbury, UK) and D.C. Deeming (Manchester, UK)........................................................= ........................159 Guide for Authors..........................................................= ....................183 =20 Applied Animal Behaviour Science Vol. 51, No. 3-4 CONTENTS = February 1997 Special Issue: From Behavioural Research to Sex Ratio Manipulation Guest Editors: G Hosey (Bolton Institute, Bolton, UK) and A R Glatston (Royal Rotterdam Zoological & Botanical Gardens, Rotterdam, The Netherlands= ) Behavioural research in zoos: academic perspectives=09 G.R. Hosey (Bolton, UK)..................................................= .....................199 Sex ratio research in zoos and its implications for captive management=09 A.R. Glatston (Rotterdam, Netherlands)...................................= ............209 Possible factors influencing vertebrate sex ratios: an introductory overview=09 I.C.W. Hardy (Leiden, Netherlands)......................................= ...............217 Further evaluation of the developmental asynchrony hypothesis of=20 sex ratio variation=09 S. Krackow (Dummerstorf-Rostock, Germany)...............................= ...243 Environmental sex determination in reptiles=09 C. Ciofi (London, UK) and I.R. Swingland (Canterbury, UK)...............= 251 Social status and physical condition of mother and sex ratio of=20 offspring in cervids=09 I.Kojola (Taivalkoski, Finland).........................................= ......................267 Manipulation of sex ratio at birth and maternal investment in female mouse lemurs (Microcebus murinus, Primates)=09 M. Perret and S. Colas (Brunoy, France).................................= ...........275 Social rank and birth sex ratios in rhesus monkeys (Macaca mulatta)=09 C. Nevison (Cambridge, UK)..............................................= ..................285 The socio-ecology of sex ratio variation in primates: evolutionary deduction and empirical evidence=09 J.A.R.A.M. van Hooff (Utrecht, The Netherlands)........................= ......293 Skewed offspring sex ratios and sex composition of twin litters in Serengeti spotted hyaenas (Crocuta crocuta) are a consequence=20 of siblicide=09 H. Hofer and M.L. East (Post Starnberg, Germany).......................= ....307 General Discussions........................................................= .................317 Conclusion.................................................................= ..........................323 List of Participants.......................................................= ......................327 From: IN%"arowan@OPAL.TUFTS.EDU" 16-APR-1997 08:50:56.27 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: ultrasound repellent? Return-path: Received: from sask.usask.ca by sask.usask.ca (PMDF V5.1-5 #15020) id <01IHRMWZ1M9U91X30I@sask.usask.ca> (original mail from arowan@OPAL.TUFTS.EDU); Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:50:52 CST Received: from opal.tufts.edu (SYSTEM@[130.64.63.3]) by sask.usask.ca (PMDF V5.1-5 #15020) with ESMTP id <01IHRMWXOT388WYPLW@sask.usask.ca> for applied-ethology-frwd; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:50:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from [130.64.249.27] ("port 61953"@st1289.infonet.tufts.edu) by OPAL.TUFTS.EDU (PMDF V5.1-7 #15531) with SMTP id <01IHRR3LNHKQ001GGD@OPAL.TUFTS.EDU> for Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:50:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:02:40 -0500 From: arowan@OPAL.TUFTS.EDU (Andrew Rowan) Subject: Re: ultrasound repellent? To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Errors-to: applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca Resent-message-id: <01IHRMWZ34WK91X30I@sask.usask.ca> Message-id: X-VMS-To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Dear Colleagues, >I would like be grateful for any information on the adversive >or repellent effects of sound/ultrasound on animals. I remember >that back in the 70's there were high hopes to use sound as a >harmless repellent. Guy Hodge of the Humane Society of the U.S. looked into the scientific evidence for ultrasound devices about ten years ago. Many of the targetted species did not detect the ultrasound frequency in the first place and some that did would be scared off for a day or so but rapidly habituated. Everything I have seen indicates they are totally ineffective (like the electronic bug zappers that people put out in their backyards to kill mosquitos - they kill a lot of beneficial insects that are attracted to light but have absolutely no effect on mosquitos, unless one accidentally flies into it). Yet, many reputable companies (like Brookstone in the USA) continue to promote and sell them with all sorts of exaggerated claims. Andrew Rowan Andrew N Rowan Director Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy School of Veterinary Medicine 200 Westboro Rd N. Grafton, MA 01536 Phone: (508) 839 7991; Fax: (508) 839 2953 Email: arowan@opal.tufts.edu From: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" 16-APR-1997 10:26:41.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Questions?? Dear All; A question that deserves frequent revisitation is: WHAT IS APPLIED ETHOLOGY? There are some persons (maybe the older/retired grey beards) who contend that the term "applied ethology" is an oxymoron - a contention that I do not believe to be supportable. There are also persons who view the term "applied ethology" to be more restrictive than "applied behavior" - and I agree with this position. I also believe that persons in the profession of Applied Ethology are not rigid enough in their use of the term "ethology" and as a consequence, we continue to struggle in our search for a common and recognized identity. (The term "veterinary" originally refered to "beasts of burden." Yet, today no person would refer tdo themselves as a veterinarian on the basis of owning a horse - or becausethey have a degree in horse behavior for that matter. Similarly, I would hope that some day the term "Applied Ethologist" will have meaning as to professional standing in a scientific discipline.) I believe that Jeff has raised some valid points, but I don't believe that the lack of scientific rigor in the use of the term ethology is "species specific" (from the researcher viewpoint - dog, horse, or whatever). I remember a student paper (in the Vet School at Saskatchewan) entitled "The Ethology of a Dog"; implying that "ethology" is nothing more than a fancy synonym for "behavior" and I see this mistake still being made today. Also, far too often persons use "applied ethology" when they mean "animal welfare", causing even greater confusion. I support the view that there be continued efforts to ensure that the Applied Ethology Discussion Group keep focused on "applied ethology." I don't have a specific idea as to how this should be done - but the suggestion that there be a group limited to ISAE membership seems to me like something that deserves more consideration. Another possibility might be that those persons interested primarily in Dog Behavior start another group, but continue to contribute to the Applied Ethology Group when discussing general principles of ethology based on dog behavior. To summarize, I agree with Jeff that this Discussion Group has deviated from what I thought was the original goal. I suggest that time be given to discussing the Group's future at the upcoming ISAE meeting (and possibly at the regional meetings as well). I believe that the discussion period should have as its foundation (but not necessarily specifically address) the question, "What is Applied Ethology?" Ray Stricklin Department of Animal and Avian Sciences University of Maryland From: IN%"FLANNIGAN@admin3.usask.ca" 16-APR-1997 10:40:11.27 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Rushen's Soapbox? Dear All (including Dr. Rushen) There have been few things that I have commented on while on this network. I believe Dr. Rushen's earlier comments about thinking about what we write and perhaps giving it a day to mull over. i would like Dr. Rushen to take his own advice. The field of small animal clinical behaviour is a new and developing area that is undergoing developments. There are many scientific article concerning the clinical aspects of small animal behaviour medicine. We do not discount normal behaviour or expect all problem behaviours to disapear because of conditioning. Behaviour modification is only one part of attacking a problem behaviour. Yes, small animal behaviour is an applied field within ethology that has science as its roots. Yes clinical behaviourist have tried to fix problems without a scientific basis but does mean that it should be on this forum. Yes I was insulted by Dr. Rushen's comments concerning WooF behaviour and No, I do not believe this network requires a moderator. Other wise Dr. Rushen's predjudiced comments would not be allowed a to be aired. That would bother me more than anything. Now I can get off my soapbox! Gerry Flannigan Department of herd medicine and Theriogenology (Yes I do real ethology stuff) Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Sk From: IN%"arion@dialatlanta.com" 16-APR-1997 13:31:40.14 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Direction needed There is a goat breeder who keeps well over 1,000 goats and has 1 guardian dog for approx every 200 goats. These dogs are of different breeds and live and function together. There are 7 siblings of 6 mos age and the rest are adults. The goats, accompanied by the guardian dogs and a professional shepherd with kelpies, will be moving to an unfenced 12,000 acre summer range soon. The observations that the breeder has made of the interaction of the dogs with the goats, the coyotes and with each other (such a large number of dogs) are very interesting. She has done no training or intervention with the guardian dogs and they appear to function in a kind of division of labor when dealing with coyotes. Some unusual incidents have stimulated her to learn more about the behavior and management of this group, particularly with the growing siblings. She will consider allowing ethological observation by someone knowledgeable about guardian dog behavior at the summer range in order to learn to better manage the dogs and goats in the future and contribute to the general knowledge. (The added interest will be how the shepherd's kelpies will be treated by these coyote battling dogs.) She doesn't know how to contact anyone who may be interested in this. I told her that I would post to this list. What with Jeff's post this morning, the timing is interesting. Does anyone out there know who she may contact? Chris Redenbach From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 16-APR-1997 13:36:01.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Questions?? -REPONSE Ray Stricklin: >>> 16/04/ 12h25 >>> There are also persons who view the term "applied ethology" to be more restrictive than "applied behavior" - and I agree with this position. I also believe that persons in the profession of Applied Ethology are not rigid enough in their use of the term "ethology" (snip) implying that "ethology" is nothing more than a fancy synonym for "behavior" and I see this mistake still being made today. >>> The term "ethology" is sometimes used to designate specific fields in the study of animal behaviour. Personally, however, I prefer to use it as a general term meaning "the scientific study of non-human animal behaviour". I would be interested in knowing the arguements against this broad usage. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 16-APR-1997 14:26:56.17 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: What is all the fuss about? I don't see why we can't have a discussion group where several threads, involving the people interested in those areas go on simultaneously. I reckon clinical small animal behaviour discussions fall legitimately under "applied ethology". I wouldn't want to get too bogged down in defining ethology and requiring that all topics discussed had to meet exclusive criteria. I think that would be really CRAP! I wouldn't want to get too exclusive about who can participate either. Then again restricting it to ISAE members would shut me out. Maybe some would think that a good thing! (actually I'm planning to apply any day now). On the other hand I personally prefer discussions which address issues relating to animals or particular species in general, how we can study behaviour scientifically and technically, problems under domestication and/or captivity etc. I'm not so much interested in the behavioural defects or inconveniences of a particular person's dog, cat or iguana. But who am I to say that these discussions have no value. Clearly they are of great interest to those that regularly get involved in them. I find I can skip over them pretty quickly if they don't look interesting. I wouldn't want to see the people with primarily companion animal interests banished from the list. Not least because the same people frequently contribute very thoughtfully to the discussions I am more interested in. Fortunately there are, as far as I know, no plans to marginalise anybody, or to moderate discussions or restrict their scope. Occasionally the poop does hit the fan and people will end up (probably inadvertently) saying something controversial or thoughtless or somehow upsetting to someone else. C'est la vie. (oops sorry. I meant "that's life". I think these kind of events are rare and, to an extent, self-limiting. They usually snuff themselves out due to lack of interest before long. (Just like some of the threads I've tried to raise!). There are a lot of people on the list who rarely or never post messages. I'd like some of them to quit being coy and join in some of the discussions. I'll finish this bit of self-indulgent rambling by offering two antidotes to discussions that don't interest YOU. The passive solution is to ignore it and leave those involved to enjoy it in peace. The alternative is to post something that does interest you and see if anyone else wants to kick it around a bit. Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"jamench@ucdavis.edu" "Joy A. Mench" 16-APR-1997 14:49:21.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology'" CC: Subj: Shedding light on the list Dear all, Given the discussion that is going on about the postings on applied ethology, it seemed timely to pass this bit of humor on. Joy Mench Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1,331: 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we are all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversey. 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physics.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 16-APR-1997 14:50:39.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Reminder: How to subscribe and unsubscribe In order to SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE from the Applied-ethology network you MUST send your request to: applied-ethology-REQUEST@sask.usask.ca (NOTE the word REQUEST in the address) on the first line of your message (NOT the subject header) you must type: unsubscribe applied-ethology your e-mail address (for example to unsubscribe I would type: unsubscribe applied-ethology joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca Please do NOT send your request to the entire network. If you are having trouble send a message directly to me at: joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca WARNING! Anyone ignoring this procedure within 48 hrs of receiving this message will be sent a copy of the Good Times Virus, plus a collection of messages by Jeff Rushen complaining about too many dog messages! Joe List (manager?, owner? certainly not the moderator?) ======================= Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" 16-APR-1997 16:11:20.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Professional Applied Ethology Dear All, There is a very good reason for being concerned about the definition of Applied Ethology - if one considers Applied Ethology to be their profession. Ethology is not simply the "scientific study of animal behavior" as suggested by Jeff Rushen. There are many physiologists (especially in the U.S.) who study animal behavior but are _not_ ethologists. These persons are most certainly scientists and they study animal behavior - but again they are not ethologists, applied or otherwise. The scientific approach used by these persons is primarily to view behavior as a dependent variable (the product of an endocrine change or whatever). These persons are traditional reductionists - with the view that everything can be explained using only energy and matter, and they have made near incredible breakthroughs in areas such as molecular genetics. They have not (and I believe will not) offered so much to understanding the aspects of behavior important to Applied Ethologists. Ethology in its foundation took a position that was current with Darwin but at the same time was contrary to contemporary studies of behavior. Ethology (and related disciplines) was founded on the view that the animal, including its behavior, is a product of its evolutionary history _and_ its developmental experiences. Lorenz et al. strongly advocated the position that to understand the behavior an animal one must attempt to understand how natural selection has molded the species and then to view the impact of experience on this construct. This is not a reductionistic approach to science - rather it is an argument for _synthesis_ as the scientific methodological approach. (This term appears in the title of several modern writings including the title of E.O. Wilson's _Sociobiolgy: The New Synthesis_). In the welfare portion of modern discipline of applied ethology, the argument that "welfare is a subjective mental state" is in fact an acknowledgement that traditional reductionism leaves one short of an adequate explanation of this phenomenon we refer to as welfare. Welfare, by this definition, is a lot to do with the _mind_ and the mind is a product of information - both DNA and processed information obtained through sensory input, and a synthesis approach to understanding the _mind_ is of much greater use to applied ethologists than is a reductionistic approach (which is not to say that a reductionist approach is not important). I do not agree that Applied Ethology is simply the scientific study of animal behavior. This definition is much too broad. Among the researchers in animal and veterinary science/medicine, who is not interested in animal behavior? Nutritionists conduct studies on intake behavior, reproductive physiologists study sexual behavior, etc. And while these studies of animal behavior are important, they are not ethological in nature - at least they typically are not so. Ethology in its foundation offered a rather specific alternative approach to understanding behavior. I would agree that the boundaries of modern ethology have expanded to include portions of other disciplines. But I still believe the term ethology has meaning beyond "the scientific study of animal behavior." Also, I do agree that Applied Ethology should be limited to the study of animals. Ten years or so ago, there was a group who met jointly with the Animal Behavior Society under a title that was something to the effect The Society for the Study of Applied Ethology - and their subjects were human! I would suggest that to be an Applied Ethologist one should first be an Ethologist. Further, having knowledge of an animal's behavior does not make one an Applied Ethologist. I have met cowboys who have remarkable knowledge of range cattle behavior - but they are not ethologists. I would consider it a mistake to not attempt to learn as much as possible from these persons. However, I would also consider it a mistake to employ these persons in professional positions that are described under the title of Applied Ethology. If there is an International Society of Applied Ethologists, there should be a professional group Applied Ethologists. I believe that one important aspect of a professional group is defining its discipline (and re-addressing this definition on a frequent basis). Ray Stricklin Department of Animal and Avian Sciences University of Maryland From: IN%"harrism@sask.usask.ca" 16-APR-1997 19:40:53.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "etho-list" CC: IN%"HARRISM@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Dogs; cats; list moderation Dear all, I have to say I'm very surprised by the sentiments I've been hearing on the list -- about discriminating against those who wish to discuss the behaviour of particular species (companion animals) and consider using list moderation as a way to do it. This is to me certainly an example of speciesism (unjustified discrimination against one species). Why discriminate against people who wish to discuss dog behaviour? Could the farm animal types perhaps have become a little annoyed because the companion types have been rather prolific recently, in contrast the relative quietness of the farm types? And as for list moderation, there are lots of reasons to do it -- and lots of reasons not to (in fact, I think I was the one who first suggested we might become a moderated list, and offered to moderate it, a couple of years ago -- to universal cries of "censorship"). However, one use I do not see for list moderation is discrimination based on people's species of interest. And incidentally, to answer Ray Stricklin, I see no reason at all why applied ethology should not include human behaviour. Are we not just another kind of animal, after all? As for legislating quality of content, would the people who suggested this perhaps think that this should be done based on academic qualifications of the poster? Ph.D. OK, but no B.Sc.s here?? Should I Unsubscribe now??! Puzzled on the Prairies, a.k.a. - Moira Harris From: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" 16-APR-1997 21:10:30.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: correction In a previous message,I intended to state, "I do _not_ agree that ethology should be limited to animals." Ray Stricklin From: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" 16-APR-1997 22:25:03.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: inequalities in academe Dear All, The academic world is not and should not be an egalitarian society. Education is a process of discrimation! Not discrimation against persons - but rather discrimation against ignorance. A Ph.D. degree is not and should not be the equal of B.Sc. These are statements having to do with professional standards. These statements have nothing whatsoever to do with how persons should be treated individually. I don't agree that a Ph.D. should be given even preferential treatment in parking locations on campuses. However, when hiring a person for a professional position, a Ph.D. must have more value than a B.Sc. The standard for granting a Ph.D. should be that the person at the time of their dissertation defense is the most knowledgeable person in the world on the topic covered in their dissertation title. If this standard is met on occasion, then one should expect that on average a Ph.D. will, in fact, have a more informed postion than a B.Sc. on the Ph.D.'s topic of expertise. Francis Crick said that his success was due to his choice to associate only with persons smarter than himself and that he did not waste time reading material that did not advance his knowledge. (He went on to say please don't write me personal letters.) Maybe only a Nobel laureate could get away with such arrogance. But he does raise a good point. How much time should one have to spend sorting through messages that do not advance one's knowledge? Could a moderator, editor, species-specific list, or whatever serve to make the system more efficient? And maybe save 300-400 persons a few minutes each day? Could a moderator catch mistakes of the type I recently made and save the group from having to read unnecessary challenges, followed by corrections? Ray Stricklin, B.S., etc. Department of Animal and Avian Sciences University of Maryland From: IN%"Johanl3@Transnet.co.za" "le_Roux Johan Datavia" 17-APR-1997 00:00:58.03 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-Ethology@SASK.USASK.ca'" CC: Subj: What is all the fuss about? Jon wrote: >I wouldn't want to get too bogged down in defining ethology and requiring that all topics discussed had to meet exclusive criteria. I think that would be really CRAP! I wouldn't want to get too exclusive about who can participate either. Then again restricting it to ISAE members would shut me out. Maybe some would think that a good thing! (actually I'm planning to apply any day now).> < < That would effectively cut me out as well! Although I do not participate actively (I am not a professional Ethologist and try to keep the discussions that way) I can read every piece and form my own opinions. Thanks for allowing guys like me to at least listen(?) to the discussions. I keep a lot of animals and this list really mean a lot to me. Johan le Roux From: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" 17-APR-1997 02:48:27.95 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" Subj: RE: Questions?? -REPONSE Jeff Rushen wrote: > The term "ethology" is sometimes used to designate specific fields in the > study of animal behaviour. Personally, however, I prefer to use it as a > general term meaning "the scientific study of non-human animal > behaviour". I would be interested in knowing the arguements against this > broad usage. Dr Boris Cyrulnik, a French psychiatrist, is doing human ethology (human etho-psyciatric approach). For example he has described the child gesture "pointer du doigt" ("finger pointing", a development state when a child is able to dissociate the pointing with a finger toward an object and a gaze toward his/her mother - this gesture precedes speaking). So I would not concur with Jeff's definition in the "non-human animal" part. Ethology is more description (morphobiological study of behavior) than modelisation. Eibl Eibesfeld described a neuro-ethology, an eco-ethology. He includes the human being in his study. Ethology is inter- and trans-disciplinary. In French, his book was titled: "Ethologie, biologie du comportement" = "Ethology, biology of behaviour" (1967 for the German edition). So I would prefer the following general definition: "the scientific study of the biology of behaviour" (but this is implying the objective observation and description methodology, that is the strong point of ethology. Dr Joel Dehasse (dvm) - Brussels - jdehasse@arcadis.be http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/ From: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" 17-APR-1997 02:48:44.05 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" Subj: RE: Is dog ethology scientific?.....WOOFF! Jeff Rushen wrote: > ... is dog ethology scientific? > Most of the (few) mails on dogs that I have read seem to consider a > dog's behaviour to result from a series of rewards and punishments, and > that behaviour can be explained (and changed) through knowledge of > the history of reinforcement. This reminds me of the behaviourist view > that was dominant 20-50 years ago, but which has been largely > superseded. It is clear that reinforcment plays a far more limited role in > the organization of behaviour than was once thought, and that biological > constraints on behaviour and the role of various stimuli eliciting behaviour > are far more important than once thought. Are dog ethologists keeping > track of changes in fundamental ethology? Sure they do. Not everybody who is active in the dog behaviour field is a behaviourist. The French approach is broader, using the unique observation methodology of ethology, bringing in information from psycho-physiology, psycho-pharmacology, neuro-physiology, psychology, system analysis, ... > I doubt that many people would propose a purely reinforcement account > of pig stereotypies etc, which appear to result more from some > inflexibility in feeding motivational systems. Yet reinforcement accounts > of dog stereotypies seem quite common. There are several explanations on the development of stereotypies (not only stereotyped behaviours) in dogs. Reinforcement has little to do with that. This is a degradation in the behavioural sequence with disappearance of the satiety phase, on the basis, probably, of displacement activities. A neurotransmission model with dopamine insufficiency has been proposed by Patrick Pageat (Pathologie du comportement du chien, Point Vétérinaire, Alfort, France, 1995) and the use of selegiline (an activator of the dopamine neurotransmission) is very effective. This is just an hypothesis. But it is functionnal. > Are these "explanations" of dog behaviour problems ever checked out > scientifically? Just because a clinician is able to solve a problem as a > result of interpreting a behaviour in a certain way, does not mean that > that interpretation is correct. It is an n=1 and alternative explanations are > rarely eliminated. When you are solving hundreds or thousands of cases with a model/hypothesis/theory, and have statistical analysis correlating it, I think you do a scientific job (see Pageat's book based on more than 9000 clinical cases). > Some of the other accounts of dog behaviour seem to be verging on a > quasi-freudian approach, which I imagine is totally devoid of any > scientific background. I have to agree with you. Dr Joel Dehasse (dvm) - Brussels - jdehasse@arcadis.be http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/ From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 17-APR-1997 08:29:26.50 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Questions?? -REPONSE > On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Jeff Rushen wrote: > > The term "ethology" is sometimes used to designate specific fields in the > > study of animal behaviour. Personally, however, I prefer to use it as a > > general term meaning "the scientific study of non-human animal > > behaviour". I would be interested in knowing the arguements against this > > broad usage. > > > > Jeff Rushen > > > Jeff, > Maybe that's the meaning it received gradually amongst a wider public. > However: > -non-human: one of the main differences between psychology (I should > differentiate between many subdivisions here, but it would bring us too > far) and ehtology was that the latter observes ALL species, from the > unicellular to man, with the evolution theory as a background; > -study of "behaviour": there were big fights between the early ethologists > and e.g. the behaviourists. The advantage of ethology is that it is > non-reductionistic. It's in fact an interdisciplinary science in itself by > not excluding any level in the structure of the organism in order to > explain behaviour. What made it hence specific is that it considers each > species with its own specificity, and not e.g. as a "model", or a "more > simple structure" in order to distillate general laws of learning. > In fact I rather like the definition of ""biological" study of behaviour", > because it includes exactly the integration of many aspects from > phylogeny, > through epigeny till learning in ontogenetic processes. If we say only > "study of behaviour", it means we also could include neurophysiology, > neurobiochemistry, the strict S-R theory of early behaviourists, etc. > In any case, one should not be dogmatic. Science develops and strict > definitions can sometimes hamper progress. > Whatdoyouthink? > Frank From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 17-APR-1997 08:36:29.46 To: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" "ws31" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: inequalities in academe No Ph.D. ....... No Comment. Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, ws31 wrote: > Dear All, > > The academic world is not and should not be an egalitarian society. > Education is a process of discrimation! Not discrimation against persons - > but rather discrimation against ignorance. A Ph.D. degree is not and should not > be the equal of B.Sc. These are statements having to do with professional > standards. These statements have nothing whatsoever to do with how persons > should be treated individually. I don't agree that a Ph.D. should be given > even preferential treatment in parking locations on campuses. However, when > hiring a person for a professional position, a Ph.D. must have more value than > a B.Sc. > > The standard for granting a Ph.D. should be that the person at the time of > their dissertation defense is the most knowledgeable person in the world on > the topic covered in their dissertation title. If this standard is met on > occasion, then one should expect that on average a Ph.D. will, in fact, have > a more informed postion than a B.Sc. on the Ph.D.'s topic of expertise. > > Francis Crick said that his success was due to his choice to associate only > with persons smarter than himself and that he did not waste time reading > material that did not advance his knowledge. (He went on to say please don't > write me personal letters.) Maybe only a Nobel laureate could get away with > such arrogance. But he does raise a good point. How much time should one > have to spend sorting through messages that do not advance one's knowledge? > Could a moderator, editor, species-specific list, or whatever serve to make the > system more efficient? And maybe save 300-400 persons a few minutes each > day? Could a moderator catch mistakes of the type I recently made and save > the group from having to read unnecessary challenges, followed by > corrections? > > Ray Stricklin, B.S., etc. > Department of Animal and Avian Sciences > University of Maryland From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 17-APR-1997 08:42:13.99 To: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" "ws31" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: inequalities in academe No Ph.D. ....... No Comment. Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, ws31 wrote: > Dear All, > > The academic world is not and should not be an egalitarian society. > Education is a process of discrimation! Not discrimation against persons - > but rather discrimation against ignorance. A Ph.D. degree is not and should not > be the equal of B.Sc. These are statements having to do with professional > standards. These statements have nothing whatsoever to do with how persons > should be treated individually. I don't agree that a Ph.D. should be given > even preferential treatment in parking locations on campuses. However, when > hiring a person for a professional position, a Ph.D. must have more value than > a B.Sc. > > The standard for granting a Ph.D. should be that the person at the time of > their dissertation defense is the most knowledgeable person in the world on > the topic covered in their dissertation title. If this standard is met on > occasion, then one should expect that on average a Ph.D. will, in fact, have > a more informed postion than a B.Sc. on the Ph.D.'s topic of expertise. > > Francis Crick said that his success was due to his choice to associate only > with persons smarter than himself and that he did not waste time reading > material that did not advance his knowledge. (He went on to say please don't > write me personal letters.) Maybe only a Nobel laureate could get away with > such arrogance. But he does raise a good point. How much time should one > have to spend sorting through messages that do not advance one's knowledge? > Could a moderator, editor, species-specific list, or whatever serve to make the > system more efficient? And maybe save 300-400 persons a few minutes each > day? Could a moderator catch mistakes of the type I recently made and save > the group from having to read unnecessary challenges, followed by > corrections? > > Ray Stricklin, B.S., etc. > Department of Animal and Avian Sciences > University of Maryland From: IN%"AHUMPHR@uoft02.utoledo.edu" 17-APR-1997 09:11:14.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: limiting the list I am an undergraduate student, who rarely posts to the list. The reason I do not post to the list is I am not a qualified ethologist and don't want to interfere with professional discussions. However, it is my intention to go on to graduate school and obtain a doctoral degree in Ethology. Eaves dropping on lists such as this one gives me interesting information and perspective. I can only hope that membership to the list is not limited to ISAE members alone, because it would hurt people like myself who enjoy hearing the discussions presented by the professionals. Thank you for your consideration. Abigail Humphreys Ahumphr@uoft02.utoledo.edu University of Toledo, Ohio From: IN%"sgadbois@is2.dal.ca" "Simon Gadbois" 17-APR-1997 09:33:34.01 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts", IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" "ws31" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: inequalities in academe At 11:27 AM -0300 17/4/1997, Jon Watts wrote: >No Ph.D. ....... No Comment. > >Jon Same here... Ph.D. soon but not yet and a little comment: Imagine the time some of you would have saved if non Ph.D. BSc's and MSc's are banned from this list! The Ethology listserv lets us participate and I think we can contribute as much as we learn from getting involved. Another "political" comment: hierarchies in universities seems to be much more important in Europe (I noticed in France and Belgium anyway), but I don't think that North Americans share this view... I hope not anyway. Simon Gadbois Department of Psychology-Neuroscience Life Sciences Centre Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada, B3H 4J1 sgadbois@is2.dal.ca 902-494-3603 (Fentress's lab) 902-494-3370 (Moger's lab) 902-494-6585 (fax) Behavioral (social) endocrinology of the wolf (aggression and social stress, urinary cortisol). Temperament in animals. Sequential and temporal analysis of behavior. From: IN%"cbrandau@knox.mindspring.com" "Claire Brandau" 17-APR-1997 09:34:33.65 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Newby Hello to all. Quick introduction as I am on my way to class (as usual). My name is Claire M. Brandau and I'm a Senior in Wildlife and Fisheries Science at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville. I'm also one of those rare (and perhaps crazy) people going on to postgraduate education. That is, if I can find someone to take me! Anyway, I have joined this group as ethology is a major interest. I have worked in a zoo setting for many moons, and have worked around wild (and sometimes scary) populations in Yellowstone National Park. So, hello! Hope to hear from everyone soon! Especially if you are a prof and want a new student! (nudge nudge, wink wink, knowwhaddahmean?) Claire M. Brandau From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 17-APR-1997 09:52:14.94 To: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: (M.Sc.) - Definitions A useful working definition of psychology would be that it is the study of the behaviour of two closely related species. Rats and psychology students. You may notice that I exhibited my academic status in the subject line of this message. If we all followed this example, we could judge the value of everybody's contributions to the list without actually having to read them. Jon;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 17-APR-1997 09:52:19.84 To: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: (M.Sc.) - Definitions A useful working definition of psychology would be that it is the study of the behaviour of two closely related species. Rats and psychology students. You may notice that I exhibited my academic status in the subject line of this message. If we all followed this example, we could judge the value of everybody's contributions to the list without actually having to read them. Jon;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 17-APR-1997 10:01:46.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"HARRISM@sask.usask.ca" Subj: I.D.E.S?-WOOF contd. Moira Harris: >>>This is to me certainly an example of speciesism (unjustified discrimination against one species). Why discriminate against people who wish to discuss dog behaviour? >>> It is not speciesism, in the sense of an unjustified discrimination against one species of animal. Instead, it is a justified discrimination against one species of canine clinical veterinary behaviourist (CCVB): those who claim to base their treatment on scientific principles but don't. From the mails I have received, it is clear that some CCVB's do follow good scientific standards, where it is possible in the circumstances. All power to them. Science-based messages from such people will always be welcome (as if I had any say in the matter!). >>>Could the farm animal types perhaps have become a little annoyed because the companion types have been rather prolific recently, in contrast the relative quietness of the farm types?>>> It is more the case that ethologists working on farm animals have made a strong effort over the last few decades to increase the scientific rigour of their research, with some success. Obviously, some CCVB's are doing the same. It is a worry that the appearance of psuedo-scientific messages about dog's (or horse) behaviour on this list, will give the whole field of applied-ethology a bad name. Providing interpretations of pet behaviour problems which are based on scientific principles is not enough to make the treatment of those problems "scientific". As a minimum, we would need to know that 1. some attempt has been made to understand the underlying cause of the problem and to treat the cause (e.g. as opposed to just assuming that stereotypies are due to wrong reinforcement and using shock collars to stop it) 2. some attempt is made to check that the treatment really did work, over a reasonable time (as a question: how thoroughly is this done? From studies of different brands of human psychotherapy, it seems that the clinicians themselves often have little real idea of how effective the treatment was). 3. some measures are made to ensure that the treatment was more effective than no treatment. 4. an attempt is made to isolate the element or combination of elements involved in the treatment process that is the "active ingredient". Jeff Rushen rushenj@em.agr.ca From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 17-APR-1997 10:04:46.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"HARRISM@sask.usask.ca" Subj: I.D.E.S?-WOOF contd. Moira Harris: >>>This is to me certainly an example of speciesism (unjustified discrimination against one species). Why discriminate against people who wish to discuss dog behaviour? >>> It is not speciesism, in the sense of an unjustified discrimination against one species of animal. Instead, it is a justified discrimination against one species of canine clinical veterinary behaviourist (CCVB): those who claim to base their treatment on scientific principles but don't. From the mails I have received, it is clear that some CCVB's do follow good scientific standards, where it is possible in the circumstances. All power to them. Science-based messages from such people will always be welcome (as if I had any say in the matter!). >>>Could the farm animal types perhaps have become a little annoyed because the companion types have been rather prolific recently, in contrast the relative quietness of the farm types?>>> It is more the case that ethologists working on farm animals have made a strong effort over the last few decades to increase the scientific rigour of their research, with some success. Obviously, some CCVB's are doing the same. It is a worry that the appearance of psuedo-scientific messages about dog's (or horse) behaviour on this list, will give the whole field of applied-ethology a bad name. Providing interpretations of pet behaviour problems which are based on scientific principles is not enough to make the treatment of those problems "scientific". As a minimum, we would need to know that 1. some attempt has been made to understand the underlying cause of the problem and to treat the cause (e.g. as opposed to just assuming that stereotypies are due to wrong reinforcement and using shock collars to stop it) 2. some attempt is made to check that the treatment really did work, over a reasonable time (as a question: how thoroughly is this done? From studies of different brands of human psychotherapy, it seems that the clinicians themselves often have little real idea of how effective the treatment was). 3. some measures are made to ensure that the treatment was more effective than no treatment. 4. an attempt is made to isolate the element or combination of elements involved in the treatment process that is the "active ingredient". Jeff Rushen rushenj@em.agr.ca From: IN%"sgadbois@is2.dal.ca" "Simon Gadbois" 17-APR-1997 10:07:42.37 To: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Questions?? -REPONSE At 11:22 AM -0300 17/4/1997, Frank Odberg wrote: >> >> On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Jeff Rushen wrote: >> > The term "ethology" is sometimes used to designate specific fields in the >> > study of animal behaviour. Personally, however, I prefer to use it as a >> > general term meaning "the scientific study of non-human animal >> > behaviour". I would be interested in knowing the arguements against this >> > broad usage. >> > >> > Jeff Rushen >> > >> Jeff, >> Maybe that's the meaning it received gradually amongst a wider public. >> However: >> -non-human: one of the main differences between psychology (I should >> differentiate between many subdivisions here, but it would bring us too >> far) and ehtology was that the latter observes ALL species, from the >> unicellular to man, with the evolution theory as a background; >> -study of "behaviour": there were big fights between the early ethologists >> and e.g. the behaviourists. The advantage of ethology is that it is >> non-reductionistic. It's in fact an interdisciplinary science in itself by >> not excluding any level in the structure of the organism in order to >> explain behaviour. What made it hence specific is that it considers each >> species with its own specificity, and not e.g. as a "model", or a "more >> simple structure" in order to distillate general laws of learning. >> In fact I rather like the definition of ""biological" study of behaviour", >> because it includes exactly the integration of many aspects from >> phylogeny, >> through epigeny till learning in ontogenetic processes. If we say only >> "study of behaviour", it means we also could include neurophysiology, >> neurobiochemistry, the strict S-R theory of early behaviourists, etc. >> In any case, one should not be dogmatic. Science develops and strict >> definitions can sometimes hamper progress. >> Whatdoyouthink? >> Frank Quick comment from a Ph.D. student (if that counts): Human ethology is an important area of research as well as animal psychology... (actually, historically, much older field than ethology). My point: some of these distinctions really don't exist anymore with behavioral ecologists working with animal psychologists in foraging theories for example. Another interesting observation (I think): an important percentage of wolf specialists are actually in psychology departments: Harrington, Fentress, Frank, McLeod, and more, although some of them are ethologists or zoologists. Here at Dalhousie and in many more North American universities departments of Psychology and Biology are "one" mainly because of animal behavior and the neurosciences. I often find that the split is more between ethology/psychology and behavioral ecology/sociobiology mainly because of different interests (regarding proximate and ultimate causations or consequences). I like to believe that there is one "(animal) behavioral science" with many approaches and perspectives... but I come from hybrid academic programs (which is, by the way, very common in North America: students doing double majors Biology-Psychology). As for the distinction between applied and fundamental... it's a dangerous one if taken too strictly: the two areas could begin to ignore each other. Just an opinion. Simon Gadbois Department of Psychology-Neuroscience Life Sciences Centre Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada, B3H 4J1 sgadbois@is2.dal.ca 902-494-3603 (Fentress's lab) 902-494-3370 (Moger's lab) 902-494-6585 (fax) Behavioral (social) endocrinology of the wolf (aggression and social stress, urinary cortisol). Temperament in animals. Sequential and temporal analysis of behavior. From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 17-APR-1997 10:14:58.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Good News!- NOT the virus (sent by a Ph. D) There is widespread panic that non-ISAE members might be driven from this list. Don't worry! There is a way. For a mere 10 pounds stirling, and the support of one ISAE member, you too can join. Contact the membership secretary: DR. Mark Rutter (Ph. D), Institute of Grasslands and Environmental Research, North Wyke, Okehampton, Devon, UK EX20 2SB. (isae.membership@bbsrc.ac.uk). For North Americans without a Ph. D., contacting the regional membership secretary may be cognitively less taxing: JANICE SWANSON, jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu in the US. Leah Braithwaite Leah.Braithwaite@space.gc.ca in Canada. Ph. D. not necessary, providing you can handle feelings of inferiority. The ISAE is a non-speciesist organization: even dogs can join. Benefits: reduced subscription rates to Applied Animal Behaviour Science and to ISAE congresses. Relax, secure in the knowledge that prejudiced bigots with Ph. D.'s will never be able to stop you receiving all those "unsubscribe" mesages from A-E. From: IN%"sgadbois@is2.dal.ca" "Simon Gadbois" 17-APR-1997 10:30:58.81 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts", IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: (M.Sc.) - Definitions At 11:48 AM -0300 17/4/1997, Jon Watts wrote: >A useful working definition of psychology would be that it is the study of >the behaviour of two closely related species. Rats and psychology >students. Not of modern animal psychology! Considering the number of comparative psychologists working with primates, dolphins, insects, etc. You have to go beyond Psychology 1000!!! Simon Gadbois Department of Psychology-Neuroscience Life Sciences Centre Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada, B3H 4J1 sgadbois@is2.dal.ca 902-494-3603 (Fentress's lab) 902-494-3370 (Moger's lab) 902-494-6585 (fax) Behavioral (social) endocrinology of the wolf (aggression and social stress, urinary cortisol). Temperament in animals. Sequential and temporal analysis of behavior. From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 17-APR-1997 10:32:52.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: Good News!- NOT the virus (sent by a Ph. D) >-----Original Message----- >From: Jeff Rushen [SMTP:rushenj@EM.AGR.CA] >Sent: Thursday, April 17, 1997 11:25 AM >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Good News!- NOT the virus (sent by a Ph. D) > >>There is widespread panic that non-ISAE members might be driven from >>this list. Don't worry! There is a way. For a mere 10 pounds stirling, and >>the support of one ISAE member, you too can join. Contact the >>membership secretary: DR. Mark Rutter (Ph. D), >>Institute of Grasslands and Environmental Research, North Wyke, >>Okehampton, Devon, UK EX20 2SB. (isae.membership@bbsrc.ac.uk). > >If non-ISAE members are driven from the list, then I guess I will leave. > >I was actually considering becoming an ISAE member, however, if this is the >way ISAE members attempt to recruit non-members, then I will have no part of >such an organization. > >By the way, I am a Ph.D. (experimental biopsychology). > >----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- >----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- >----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- >----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- >----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- > >Dog Training Site >----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm ----- From: IN%"sgadbois@is2.dal.ca" "Simon Gadbois" 17-APR-1997 10:38:56.50 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts", IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: (M.Sc.) - Definitions At 11:48 AM -0300 17/4/1997, Jon Watts wrote: >A useful working definition of psychology would be that it is the study of >the behaviour of two closely related species. Rats and psychology >students. Not of modern animal psychology! Considering the number of comparative psychologists working with primates, dolphins, insects, etc. You have to go beyond Psychology 1000!!! Simon Gadbois Department of Psychology-Neuroscience Life Sciences Centre Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada, B3H 4J1 sgadbois@is2.dal.ca 902-494-3603 (Fentress's lab) 902-494-3370 (Moger's lab) 902-494-6585 (fax) Behavioral (social) endocrinology of the wolf (aggression and social stress, urinary cortisol). Temperament in animals. Sequential and temporal analysis of behavior. From: IN%"arion@dialatlanta.com" 17-APR-1997 10:49:49.52 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Good News!- NOT the virus (sent by a Ph. D) Jeff Rushen wrote: > > There is widespread panic that non-ISAE members might be driven from > this list. Don't worry! There is a way. For a mere 10 pounds stirling, and > the support of one ISAE member, you too can join. Contact the > membership secretary: DR. Mark Rutter (Ph. D), > Institute of Grasslands and Environmental Research, North Wyke, > Okehampton, Devon, UK EX20 2SB. (isae.membership@bbsrc.ac.uk). > > For North Americans without a Ph. D., contacting the regional > membership secretary may be cognitively less taxing: JANICE > SWANSON, jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu in the US. Leah Braithwaite > Leah.Braithwaite@space.gc.ca in Canada. > > Ph. D. not necessary, providing you can handle feelings of inferiority. > The ISAE is a non-speciesist organization: even dogs can join. > > Benefits: reduced subscription rates to Applied Animal Behaviour > Science and to ISAE congresses. Relax, secure in the knowledge that > prejudiced bigots with Ph. D.'s will never be able to stop you receiving all > those "unsubscribe" mesages from A-E. Just when I had decided that this was an academic springtime ritualistic display of weapons and was waiting to see what happens next...(if female ethologists are prefered with or without potentially dangerous degrees, for example), along comes the news that it's really a clever ISAE membership drive? This is so very entertaining, although not, the use of time the voice over my shoulder says, what I should be doing right now. I don't have a PhD, how could my time be valuable? I must see a therapist about this voice! Chris Redenbach UtD (an advanced interdisciplinary honorary degree meaning "used to discrimination") From: IN%"ir10000@hermes.cam.ac.uk" 17-APR-1997 11:01:25.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: PhD Here's a working definition of Phd: "Papa has dough" :) From: IN%"jikish@ucdavis.edu" "Jocelyn Kish" 17-APR-1997 11:12:15.35 To: IN%"ir10000@hermes.cam.ac.uk" "Irene Rochlitz" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: PhD > Here's a working definition of Phd: "Papa has dough" > :) or... Piled Higher and Deeper.... :) From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 17-APR-1997 11:13:20.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE supplementary information Oh, and I forgot to add, as a requirement to join the ISAE, at least a minimal sense of humour is required. (I guess that knocks out a lot of people on this list). Jeff From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 17-APR-1997 11:14:22.36 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" Subj: List moderation/limited subscriptions Dear All, Just so we don't waste anymore time discussing the pros and cons of having the Applied-ethology network become a moderated list, I would like to point out a few very important points. 1) I am not going to moderate this list. 2) No one, except W Epp and myself, has the necessary "system privileges" needed to "intercept" messages before they are posted. 3) W Epp is not going to moderate this list either. A few reasons why this network will not become moderated or have restricted membership in the near (and probably the distant) future: 1) Everyday W Epp has to wade through numerous "error" messages because the Applied-ethology listserver is unable to deliver the message to a subscriber. Such things as inactive computer accounts, systems down, inappropriate subscriber address, etc., etc. are just a few of many ways to generate an error message. If we moderated the list I can just imagine (in addition to all the error messages) we would receive 30-40 copies of some messages because someone sat wondering why their message was not immediately returned to them through the Applied-ethology network. Thinking they must have done something wrong they would continue to send the message again and again. We don't need more problems than we already have with this system. In addtion, just how many times a day would the moderator have to read the messages and then post the "filtered" messages to satisfy the group? Once a day, twice a day or more? I already think that logging onto this network once a day is too much somedays. I don't even want to think about such a task. I love using the delete key. Why would I want to read every message, screen them, and then post them just to satisfy some and disappoint others? 2) This is a discussion list, not a scientific journal. If you want to read statements, comments, theories or facts that have been screened for appropriateness, accuracy, membership, speling mistaakes and non-inflammatory effects then go to your library and check out the peer reviewed journals that address your topic of choice. 3) I personnally enjoy the breadth of comments, breadth of backgrounds, breadth of knowledge, breadth of behavioural interests, etc. that are visible on this network. I think the idea of limiting subscriptions to ISAE members is a big mistake and something I will not support. I can not think of anything more devastating then to be told, "You are not welcome to participate in discussions, you cannot ask the experts questions, nor read the thoughts of the experts in the field of your interest". I would like to believe that future graduate students, future ethologists, and the future Niko Tinbergens or E. O. Wilsons are lurking on this network. Does this mean that I am not disappointed by some of the comments or questions? Sure, occassionally I think someone should have gone to the library before they posed their question, but I also appreciate that occassionally it is "intelligent" to ask the expert for a good place to start? The amount of time it requires the expert to provide simple direction on a topic so familiar to them is often trivial to the time it would take a novice to discover or locate information that would place them at the "beginning" of the question. Do you not ask a local resident for advice on a good location to eat when you arrive in a new town? How would you feel if everytime they told you, "Look in the Yellow Pages in the telephone book;all the eating locations are listed"? What instructor has not provided students with a reference list or provided a list of "suggested readings"? If you think a question is below your level of sophistication then don't respond, use your delete key and quit complaining! Do I think there is too much discussion or comments by novices compared to scientific dialogue? Sometimes. But I also think that anyone complaining about the lack of discussions, on topic they are interested in discussing, is more to blame than the individuals who have seized the opportunity to speak (or write messages) during the scientific voids or pauses. Finally, it is fairly easy to set up a listserver (with the help of the computer experts at your institution) and have a discussion list that has all the restrictions on it that you feel are necessary. If my comments seem unjustified compared to the little amount of messages on this topic, you have to realize that I have received many personal messages concerning this issue. I hope you understand my point of view. Joe P.S. Did you ever notice how dogs don't seem to distinguish between the scientists and the non-scientists in the room? They are fairly good at picking out the veterinarian though! This observation was intended to offend everyone on the list! :) Let's talk about applied ethology! ================== Joseph M. Stookey (Applied Ethologist, Ph.D.) Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"jikish@ucdavis.edu" "Jocelyn Kish" 17-APR-1997 11:24:39.27 To: IN%"ir10000@hermes.cam.ac.uk" "Irene Rochlitz" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: PhD > Here's a working definition of Phd: "Papa has dough" > :) or... Piled Higher and Deeper.... :) From: IN%"arion@dialatlanta.com" 17-APR-1997 11:33:41.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Department of Tasteless Humour I have just been contacted by the Department of Tasteless Humour that my post was politically insensitive and possibly demeaning to everyone vaguely resembling ethologists, women, dogs, PhD's, non-PhD's, membership chairpersons, lurkers, flamers, therapists and species who depend upon the successful outcome of power rituals. The Department has demanded a formal apology, and threatened that without one, my fate could worse than that of Jeff Rushen, whose punishment will be a puppy. So, I'm sorry! A conditioned reinforcer made me do it. Chris (Christy) Redenbach From: IN%"sgadbois@is2.dal.ca" "Simon Gadbois" 17-APR-1997 12:01:55.85 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: (M.Sc.) - Definitions At 2:39 PM -0300 17/4/1997, Jon Watts wrote: >On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Simon Gadbois wrote: > >> At 11:48 AM -0300 17/4/1997, Jon Watts wrote: >> >A useful working definition of psychology would be that it is the study of >> >the behaviour of two closely related species. Rats and psychology >> >students. >> >> Not of modern animal psychology! Considering the number of comparative >> psychologists working with primates, dolphins, insects, etc. You have to >> go beyond Psychology 1000!!! >> > >Sorry Simon, > >Message wasn't intended to be derogatory to psychologists. As a matter of >fact I graduated with a B.Sc. in psychology in 1992 and spent a lot of my >undergrad time working on sheep and pig behaviour projects! I then moved >to an anthropology department and did my M.Sc. research on handedness in >marmosets and tamarins. Neat!!! I love them! I read quite a lot of stuff on these guys because they are monogamous (like wolves) and Snowdon (was he your supervisor?) and his group (French, Abbott, etc.) did beautiful work on social stress and reproductive status with these monkeys. I know little about the work on handedness with them... although I did some of that stuff with... humans! >I meant to >reiterate an apocryphal joke about psychology, not to demonstrate >ignorance over it's scope. I understand. Because I have half of my backgroung in animal psychology I felt a bit protective I guess... I apologize for my comment then. >P.S.. Now I'm studying vocal communication in cattle. I suppose you could >call this "applied cognitive psycho-bio-ethology". Personally I think all >the talk of definitions of different fields is a bit pointless since >animal behaviour seems to demand a multidisciplinary approach and multiple >levels of explanation. You're totally rigth! From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 17-APR-1997 13:12:08.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: I.D.E.S?-WOOF contd. (Sorry if this gets posted twice. The first time I sent it, it seems to have bounced. I assume that Joe S. was trying to moderate me (OK: Joke! Joke!- The rest is deadly serious) Moira Harris: >>>This is to me certainly an example of speciesism (unjustified discrimination against one species). Why discriminate against people who wish to discuss dog behaviour? >>> It is not speciesism, in the sense of an unjustified discrimination against one species of animal. Instead, it is a justified discrimination against one species of canine clinical veterinary behaviourist (CCVB): those who claim to base their treatment on scientific principles but don't. From the mails I have received, it is clear that some CCVB's do follow good scientific standards, where it is possible in the circumstances. All power to them. Science-based messages from such people will always be welcome (as if I had any say in the matter!). >>>Could the farm animal types perhaps have become a little annoyed because the companion types have been rather prolific recently, in contrast the relative quietness of the farm types?>>> It is more the case that ethologists working on farm animals have made a strong effort over the last few decades to increase the scientific rigour of their research, with some success. Obviously, some CCVB's are doing the same. It is a worry that the appearance of psuedo-scientific messages about dog's (or horse) behaviour on this list, will give the whole field of applied-ethology a bad name. Providing interpretations of pet behaviour problems which are based on scientific principles is not enough to make the treatment of those problems "scientific". As a minimum, we would need to know that 1. some attempt has been made to understand the underlying cause of the problem and to treat the cause (e.g. as opposed to just assuming that stereotypies are due to wrong reinforcement and using shock collars to stop it) 2. some attempt is made to check that the treatment really did work, over a reasonable time (as a question: how thoroughly is this done? From studies of different brands of human psychotherapy, it seems that the clinicians themselves often have little real idea of how effective the treatment was). 3. some measures are made to ensure that the treatment was more effective than no treatment. 4. an attempt is made to isolate the element or combination of elements involved in the treatment process that is the "active ingredient". Jeff Rushen rushenj@em.agr.ca From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 17-APR-1997 16:45:59.72 To: IN%"jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" "JANICE SWANSON" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Registration info: NA ISAE meeting North American Regions Meeting ISAE June 7, 1997 Pavilion Sevigny Dairy Swine Research Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Lennoxville, Quebec Dear Canadian and U.S. ISAE members, The 1997 Canada-US regions will meet this year in Lennoxville, Quebec at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada's Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre (walking distance from Bishop's University). This year's meeting will be held in close conjunction with the Farm Animal Welfare in Canada: New Technologies, Research and World Trade workshop on June 6, at Bishop's University. Information on registration for that meeting will be mailed separately and reguires separate registration. Our regions meeting will include a poster session, oral presentations and a business meeting. Lunch and break refreshments will be included in your registration fee of $30.00 ($25.00 USD). The following outlines a tentative meeting schedule: Pavilion Sevigny, Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre 9:00 Welcome 9:15-10:30 Free papers 10:30-10:45 coffee break 10:45-12:00 Free papers 12:00-1:30 Lunch 1:30-3:00 Poster session (refreshments) 3:00-5:00 Business meeting 6:00 Social (on your own) I hope you will consider submitting an abstrat for the meeting. The abstracts should be sent to Joe Stookey by Friday April 18. Abstracts sent beyond deadline will be considered if time permits. Your abstract may be e-mailed to Joe at:joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca. Accomodations may be secured at the following: Campus: Universite Bishop's Route 108 Est Lennoxiville, Quebec J1M 1Z7 (819) 822-9651 Single occupancy = $19.00 ou/or $25.00 double occupany = $33.00 ou/or $35.00 Off Campus: Hotel Le President 3535 King Ouest Sherbrooke, Quebec, J1L 1P8 (819) 563-2941 1-800-363-2941 Single occupancy: $50.00 Double occupancy: $55.00 This reflects rates provided for the Farm Animal Welfare in Canada meeting on the 6th and you must state the name of that meeting to receive the above rates. To obtain these rates you must make your reservation before May 1st. Lennoxville(Sherbrooke) is located 150 km east of Montreal airport (Dorval). You may travel by public transportation by taking the airport shuttle to Montreal bus terminal and then the bus to Sherbrooke. For more information consult the shuttle/bus schedule at the Montreal bus terminal (514) 842-2281. Rental cars may be obtained through standard means. If attending the June 6th meeting a negotiated rate has been made with DISCOUNT rental cars (514) 631-8443 or 1-800-263-2355. Parking is free of charge at Bishop's University. If you reguire local information you may contact Jeff Rushen at: (819) 565-9174 phone/ 564-5507 fax/ rushenj@em.agr.ca. You may obtain information on the Farm Animal Welfare in Canada meeting from the world wide web by:http://res.agr.ca/lennox/welfe.html (english) or substitute /welff.html is the url for the french version. Please fill out the bottom registration form and return to your U.S. or Canada regional ISAE secretary. U.S. members may pay in U.S. dollars. Registration deadline is May 23. _____________________________________________________________________ North American Regions Meeting ISAE June 7, 1997 Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Lennoxville, Quebec REGISTRATION Name: Title: Organization: Address: Phone: e-mail: Fax: Will you be registering for the Farm Animal Welfare in Canada meeting? Yes: No: ISAE registration fee: $ 30.00 ($25.00 U.S.) Please e-mail, fax or post this form to: U.S. ISAE members: Please make your check out to LMIC and send to: Janice Swanson Department of Animal Science and Industry 134C Weber Hall Kansas State University Manhattan, KS 66506-0201 jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu phone: 913-532-1244, fax 913-532-7059 Canadian members: Leah Braithewaite Space Life Sciences PO Box 7275 Ottawa ON K1L 8E3 leah.braithwaite@space.gc.ca (613) 990-1586 phone (613) 952-0970 fax Please register by May 23, 1997. From: IN%"Marjac1@aol.com" 17-APR-1997 17:24:10.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Regarding the Complaints & Animal Cognition Dear mailing list, This is my first time sending mail to the whole list, so please forgive me if i breach any conduct rules, although so far i have not been aware of any. I am offended that this list might be limited to strictly members of ISAE. I have been interested in animal behavior and ethology (forgive me if i am unclear on the precise definitions) for my entire life, and on finding this mailing list i was delighted to finally be let in on the 'professional' world and what real people are doing with the subject i believe that i am interested in. Is not the point of the internet to spread new ideas? As long as the mailings on this list are not highly offensive, what is the big deal if people with questions concerning their pets are so graciously permitted to ask? Why not simply reply to only those people if the rest of the list is not interested? Is censorship really necessary? It would be a shame to have to stoop to such measures. OK, that was just to let off steam. i was really wondering what, if any, studies there are on animal behavior in the wild and/or studies of animal cognition and consciousness. does any one know of particularly good programs in the USA or other countries that relate to these studies? i am looking for good college programs in these areas. any information would be of help, and you could reply to me at Marjac1@aol.com don't forget the number, it's important. although i am not presently an ethologist, i think i would like to be one, and for myself and others like me, these types of mailing lists are useful. I personally feel it would be a shame to be so elitist as to shut out non-professionals with an interest in these fields. Thanks for your time, Jackie Martin Student New York, USA ps - I just wanted to add that one of the things i think is great about this mailing list are all the different nationalities which subscribe to it. It is always interesting to hear what different people are studying, and what other countries are involved with. Also, although i do not presently have a great interest in pet or farm animal studies, hearing about the intricasies in these subjects has certainly been enlightening for me. From: IN%"harrism@sask.usask.ca" 17-APR-1997 22:41:24.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "etho-list" CC: IN%"HARRISM@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Qualificationism On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, ws31 wrote: > Dear All, > > The academic world is not and should not be an egalitarian society. > Education is a process of discrimation! Not discrimation against persons - > but rather discrimation against ignorance. A Ph.D. degree is not and should not > be the equal of B.Sc. These are statements having to do with professional Dear All, Since I'm not the kind of person who generally favours the subtle approach, I have to follow up the kind comments of Jon Watts, Simon Gadbois, Chris Redenbach et al with an electronic slap on the face for Dr. Stricklin. Ray, did you actually stop and read what you had written before sending it? May I call you Ray, or would that be inappropriate, given our relative statuses? A discrimination against ignorance? Do I need to say more? Perhaps so, yes, in case I am misinterpreted. Don't take me wrong, I do have a sense of humour Dr. Rushen, and if Dr. Stricklin was making a joke I apologize, for I didn't 'get it'. Are persons without a phd really considered ignorant in Maryland? M. Harris B.Sc (psychology), M.Sc. From: IN%"CYSSEL@medic.up.ac.za" "Caren Yssel" 18-APR-1997 01:18:01.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction of myself Hi there I was introduced to this e-mail network by a friend forwarding me some of the articles on dog-behaviour. Actually, I work with the species, Homo sapiens (also a domestic animal, as far as I could gather).I work in a Infertility and Erectile disfunction Clinic, which requires good knowledge of; and skill in; human ethology. My great love is for our two, one- year old German Shepard Dogs, Nala and Zazu. By observing them, and reading articles on doggie- ethology, I realized, there is much to be learnt from animal behaviour, regarding human behaviour and psycology. I'm looking forward to being part of this e-mail network. Caren Yssel. PS:If anyone needs info on two young dogs' behaviour (and antics), I have heaps to share. Dr.Caren Yssel (MBChB) Dept.of Urology Andrology Unit Univ.of Pretoria POBox 667 Pretoria South-Africa Tel:012-354-2377 Fax:012-329-5152 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 18-APR-1997 02:20:43.15 To: IN%"CYSSEL@medic.up.ac.za" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Introduction of myself >Hi there > >I was introduced to this e-mail network by a friend forwarding me >some of the articles on dog-behaviour. > >Actually, I work with the species, Homo sapiens (also a domestic >animal, as far as I could gather).I work in a Infertility and >Erectile disfunction Clinic, which requires good knowledge of; and >skill in; human ethology. > >My great love is for our two, one- year old German Shepard Dogs, >Nala and Zazu. By observing them, and reading articles on doggie- >ethology, I realized, there is much to be learnt from animal >behaviour, regarding human behaviour and psycology. > >I'm looking forward to being part of this e-mail network. > >Caren Yssel. > >PS:If anyone needs info on two young dogs' behaviour (and antics), I >have heaps to share. Welcome Caren, A timely intromission if I may say so! Just to bring you up to speed we are engaged in the detumescence of priapegoism ... I was about to try a philosophical fisherman's squeeze here but I will step aside for an expert. I like the definition of a doctor of Philosophy as someone who knows the most about the subject in question at the moment the ink dries on the Thesis. I also like the definition of a Professional man as being able (in the event of being the only one left and bereft of books) to sit in the buff with blank paper and pen and refound his profession with its craft and science ready to grow again. That is the difference twixt me and my techs (they do not have a terminal) but Hell! I drink coffee with them!! some of my best friends etc. etc. These definitions might have held water up to about 1950. The great Druidical tradition of learning everything by heart (a thirty year undergrad course ... writing nothing down.. Julius Caesar marvelled at their learning.. and killed them as fast as he could catch them) has gone. Nowadays people get Phds for studies on how a cat bats a ball of wool with its right paw instead of its left. I was educated in the great traditions of Classical scholarship and the little I have published had to get past Professors in the direct tradition of Mommsen and the German school where you would shoot yourself if you messed up a citation. Now? sheesh..the best tended lawns of scientific reporting fertilised with scrupulous searches, laid out and drained with the most advanced statistical methodology come covered with great cow pats of conjecture!!! get out of here ..the lot of you.. I tell you what it is ..its the 'Winter Blahs'..the seasonally sad psyches of you far Northerners react to Spring like reptiles react to defrosting ..Angry contortions and thrashings... Come south in the winter for God's sake.......... Robin :-) > >Dr.Caren Yssel (MBChB) >Dept.of Urology >Andrology Unit >Univ.of Pretoria >POBox 667 Pretoria South-Africa >Tel:012-354-2377 >Fax:012-329-5152 From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 18-APR-1997 04:23:36.66 To: IN%"sgadbois@is2.dal.ca" "Simon Gadbois" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" Subj: RE: Questions?? -REPONSE Petit "captatio benevolentia" avant de commencer: Bien qu'ayant ete eduque en francais, en anglais et en flamand, je vous ecris en anglais, l'esperanto scientifique. Ainsi tout le monde me comprendra. J'ai ainsi exprime le droit a la difference (et sa richesse) tout en evoquant le bon sens... (ceci suite a la petite prise de bec recente sur le net) (PS: Mon systeme ne possede pas d'accents/tilde/umlaut/cedille...) My comments are inserted. All the best, Prof.Dr. Frank O. Odberg University of Ghent Dpt. of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke Belgium tel: +32-(0)9-2521941 fax: 5304 On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Simon Gadbois wrote: > At 11:22 AM -0300 17/4/1997, Frank Odberg wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Jeff Rushen wrote: > >> > The term "ethology" is sometimes used to designate specific fields in the > >> > study of animal behaviour. Personally, however, I prefer to use it as a > >> > general term meaning "the scientific study of non-human animal > >> > behaviour". I would be interested in knowing the arguements against this > >> > broad usage. > >> > > >> > Jeff Rushen > >> > > >> Jeff, > >> Maybe that's the meaning it received gradually amongst a wider public. > >> However: > >> -non-human: one of the main differences between psychology (I should > >> differentiate between many subdivisions here, but it would bring us too > >> far) and ehtology was that the latter observes ALL species, from the > >> unicellular to man, with the evolution theory as a background; > >> -study of "behaviour": there were big fights between the early ethologists > >> and e.g. the behaviourists. The advantage of ethology is that it is > >> non-reductionistic. It's in fact an interdisciplinary science in itself by > >> not excluding any level in the structure of the organism in order to > >> explain behaviour. What made it hence specific is that it considers each > >> species with its own specificity, and not e.g. as a "model", or a "more > >> simple structure" in order to distillate general laws of learning. > >> In fact I rather like the definition of ""biological" study of behaviour", > >> because it includes exactly the integration of many aspects from > >> phylogeny, > >> through epigeny till learning in ontogenetic processes. If we say only > >> "study of behaviour", it means we also could include neurophysiology, > >> neurobiochemistry, the strict S-R theory of early behaviourists, etc. > >> In any case, one should not be dogmatic. Science develops and strict > >> definitions can sometimes hamper progress. > >> Whatdoyouthink? > >> Frank > > Quick comment from a Ph.D. student (if that counts): > Human ethology is an important area of research as well as animal > psychology... (actually, historically, much older field than ethology). Yes. Ethology probably developed to some extent as a reaction to the limitations of "animal psychology" from the old days (e.g. Buytendijk), i.e. a lack of insight of the species as zoological phenomenon. Later behaviourists who developed "comparative psychology" were also handicapped that way (e.g. Bitterman's comparative learning reminds us the problems encountered by psychologists endeavouring to develop "culture-free tests"). On the other hand, ethology should not claim to be the first to observe behaviour as objectively as possible: SOME pre-war psychologists (such as the child psychologist Gesell) have put accurate observation before speculation. (Maybe the fact I put "some" in capitals is due to my personal very negative experiences when I read psychology here in Ghent in the 60-ties in a scientifically outdated faculty. Even in the early 80-ties biological-minded courses were suppressed because "Man is not an animal, Sir"). > My point: some of these distinctions really don't exist anymore with Yes, and it's a positive development. However, I am wondering how it went. My European experience made me believe the old behaviourist - ethology opposition had waned into a fertile convergence. When in 88 I was invited to join a NATO workshop intended to bring both schools together I initially was rather sceptic about its necessity. Then I discovered that people like e.g. Galef or the Blanchard apparently do not represent the majority in the US and that further endeavours are necessary. What's your experience? > behavioral ecologists working with animal psychologists in foraging > theories for example. Another interesting observation (I think): an > important percentage of wolf specialists are actually in psychology > departments: Harrington, Fentress, Frank, McLeod, and more, although > some of them are ethologists or zoologists. Here at Dalhousie and in > many more North American universities departments of Psychology and > Biology are "one" mainly because of animal behavior and the neurosciences. > I often find that the split is more between ethology/psychology and > behavioral ecology/sociobiology mainly because of different interests > (regarding proximate and ultimate causations or consequences). > I like to believe that there is one "(animal) behavioral science" with many > approaches and perspectives... but I come from hybrid academic programs > (which is, by the way, very common in North America: students doing double > majors Biology-Psychology). That's interesting to hear as in Europe academical barriers are still very strong. It's a positive step in principle as it encourages interdisciplinarity. I'm just wondering how to combine a serious basic training (see further remarks about fundamental sciences) with interdisciplinarity at the undergraduate level, considering the limited time. I've heard that the Linkoping experience in Sweden (structuring a university around problems and not faculties) was not a success as graduates knew about a lot, but nothing well enough (if this information is true). In fact it's a matter of examining each course and its size. It would be interesting societies such as ASAB, ABS, ISAE would create a committee in order to examine to what extent one could coordinate a curriculum focussing on behaviour but without loss of essential basic training in e.g. biology, psychology, agricultural sciences, veterinary sciences, medicine. In many countries specialization in (animal) behaviour is only possible at the postgraduate level. > As for the distinction between applied and fundamental... it's a > dangerous one if taken too strictly: the two areas could begin to > ignore each other. > Just an opinion. I share it wholeheartedly. We experienced that danger with the development of the study of farm animals and of "welfare". That's what Jeff Rushen was hinting at recently. Improving the scientific level was a slow process. Decent training in fundamental behavioural sciences before going into "applied" is of paramount importance, otherwise one plays the apprentice sorcerer. I'm afraid that's what happening to SOME extent with behavioural therapy in companion animals nowadays, which explains the irritation of some people when reading some messages...(how often did I use "some"?) > > Simon Gadbois > Department of Psychology-Neuroscience > Life Sciences Centre > Dalhousie University > Halifax, Nova Scotia > Canada, B3H 4J1 > > sgadbois@is2.dal.ca > 902-494-3603 (Fentress's lab) > 902-494-3370 (Moger's lab) > 902-494-6585 (fax) > > Behavioral (social) endocrinology of the wolf > (aggression and social stress, urinary cortisol). > Temperament in animals. > Sequential and temporal analysis of behavior. From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 18-APR-1997 05:27:20.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: List moderation/limited subscriptions I'm a dog trainer. I don't have a Ph.D. I can train dogs better than most Ph.D's. I enjoy reading about ethology and behavior and the applications of knowledge of either or both. And I have to confess to a particular love of notes on ungulant management. I also enjoy notes on swine management, but that's probably because I think "Babe" is one of the best movies in the world. And actually, some of the fish notes were pretty cool. I don't post much (except when somebody posts something REALLY stupid about dog training), and I hope I'll be allowed to lurk longer and write when I think some canine person might benefit from hearing from another dog trainer. Let's get real here, how long does anybody think some pet dog or cat owner is going to subscribe to a list that has all those notes on ungulant and swine behavior? I feel that the pet problem is self-correcting and doesn't need much intervention. And I'm especially fond of the department of tasteless humor. Cheers, Margie And keep those swine and fish notes coming. And the tasteless humor, too. From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 18-APR-1997 06:00:02.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: stray voltage and dairy cows I have been contacted about doing research on stray voltage in dairy cows. I am particularly interested in the behavioural effects. I know a lot has been written about this, and I want to avoid simply repeating what has already been done to death. I am doing the usual library searches, web searches and I am ploughing through dairy-l archives. However, I would be very interested in knowing about - any recent or unpublished studies, or research in progress -studies done outside the US. (Most of what I found has been done in the US, and I am curious if stray voltage is an issue elsewhere) -any opinions of experts (i.e. people who know what they are talking about) in the field (in the unlikely event that there are any still left on this list) as to what new angles of research need to be covered. I would be very grateful for any responses that directly address the content of this message. These should be sent to me directly to avoid provoking the list. Public or private pronouncements about being offended by this message, claims that it is sexist, racist, speciesist, nationalist, languageist, or insensitive to the special needs of dogs or people without Ph. D's, or is influenced by the weather, that it might influence decisions to join scientific societies, or should be moderated, should be sent to the appropriate place i.e. not.interested@blackhole.nowhere or applied-ethology Jeff Rushen rushenj@em.agr.ca Research Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Fax: 1-819-5645507 From: IN%"Wilsson@aol.com" 18-APR-1997 06:41:00.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: I.D.E.S?-WOOF contd. I think Jeff is right and I do agree although I am an ethologist who have been working professionally with dogs for almoust 20 years (at the Swedish dog Training Centre). One of the most interesting fields in dog behaviour is learning and behavioural modification. Except for the papers dealing with behavioural problems there is very little science in the field of dog training and learning in dogs. The official training (claiming they are based on science) methods are mainly adapted from the behaviourism. The consequence is that behaviour mainly is consideraed from the stimulus/response situation, whithout considering the state of motivation. I would say that most professional dog trainers do not train strictly according to the standard behaviouristic procedure. The training methods used for dogs are partially adapted according to what common dog pet owners would like to use and also to which type of method they can manage. I know that there are professional dog trainer that has come much further within the field of dog training than behavioural science at least if you consider the result. I think there is a lot of work in the field of dog behaviour from an ethological point of view and I think we should talk more about how this can be done than if it should be done. Erik Wilsson From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 18-APR-1997 06:58:23.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: NSIAE abstracts It is our plan to publish the abstracts for the North American Isae meeting (along with the proceedings of the Welfare Symposium) on the web. Therefore, electronic versions of abstracts will be particularly appreciated (and if you want to submit one extra version in html, feel free). I had considered sending them over applied-ethology, but I would hate to interrupt this intellectually fascinating debate about Ph. D.s The web pages for the symposium can be found at http://res.agr.ca/lennox/welfe.html (or http://res.agr.ca/lennox/welff.html for the French version). At present there is little there except for basic information, although you can find a map of how to get to Lennoxville. [Since this message is appearing on applied-ethology, I must point out that the choice of English and French for the symposium reflects government policy and should not be interpreted as suggesting that other language groups are inferior. The symposium deals only with farm animals, but this should not be interpreted as suggesting that other species are less deserving of our concern- although dogs will not be allowed in the auditorium. Some of the speakers do not have PH. D's, and Non-ISAE members are welcome. I apologize if this message insults, undeservedly] Jeff Rushen rushenj@em.agr.ca From: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" 18-APR-1997 07:26:08.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Education Moria, I stand firmly behind what I said about a Ph.D. and education. What I said was not an insult to you as a graduate student (nor do I believe to anyone else for that matter). To Moria and others, do you really believe your Ph.D. degree should be given the same value as that of B.Sc. when you later apply for a faculty or other position? Do the taxpayers-members of the public actually wish to have an educational system that produces a Ph.D. with NO more expertise than a B.Sc.? I said, "Education is a process of discrimination against IGNORANCE." I further said that, "It is NOT a process of discimination against PEOPLE." Education MUST be a process of dicrimination against ignorance. Otherwise, no progress can be made. Education MUST NOT give equal status to all ideas. There is a big difference between discrimination against (bad) ideas and discrimination against people. My profession, as an educator, PRACTICES the first, while I ABHOR the other. (I strongly believe that all persons should have access to education - which is a completely different issue.) I did not say that a university should be based on a PEOPLE-SOCIAL hierarchy. In fact I stated the opposite. I said that NOT EVEN the parking locations on a campus should be based on or related to degree (and by extension, any other rank order system). Today, it may be politically correct to allow everyone to have their own opinion. But this does not mean that all opinions are of equal merit. Earlier this week I heard a portion of a debate on National Public Radio between a creationist-scientist and an evoluntionary biologist. The former stated that Jesus was the greatest scientist that ever lived. This is utter non-sense; it is IGNORANCE. I happen to strongly agree with the simple statement, "God is love" - but it is not based on _science_. One did not set up the null hypothesis, "God is not love" and then collect data that allowed rejection of the null statement. Regardless of how perfect or how important one considers the life of Jesus to be, it was not in any way _science_. (And I don't want to create any argument on any of these issues. I simply use this example to show how absurd this notion of giving equal status to all ideas can become.) The Applied Ethology list should not equal standing to all ideas. A good search engine will pull up the archives from the Univ of Sasktachewan server. Because this information is labeled under the title of Applied Ethology, the persons whose profession is Applied Ethology are influenced by what is written within these files. To Moria and all aspiring Applied Ethologists, I do not think that you should be thrawted from expressing your ideas on the Applied-Ethology server (or elsewhere for that matter). I do, however, feel that unless you, your colleagues, and your mentors work to establish some professional standards, then your future and the future of Applied Ethology is at some risk. Ray Stricklin Department of Animal and Avian Sciences University of Maryland From: IN%"arowan@OPAL.TUFTS.EDU" 18-APR-1997 09:02:04.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: List Discussion Joy left one person off her list so the true total of how many internet subscribers it takes to change a light bulb is 1,332. The extra posting comes from myself and it consists of my stating that the most intelligent comment to date on list discussion is Joy's posting! Andrew Rowan Andrew N Rowan Director Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy School of Veterinary Medicine 200 Westboro Rd N. Grafton, MA 01536 Phone: (508) 839 7991; Fax: (508) 839 2953 Email: arowan@opal.tufts.edu From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 18-APR-1997 10:58:18.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: stray voltage- clarification Sorry, I should have been clearer. By stray voltage I mean the voltage differences that can occur between objects such as drinkers, metal bars in stalls etc. that can give animals small electric shocks. In the States, at least, there have been some big court cases from farmers suing power companies, claiming that their cows weren't producing milk, chickens were dying etc, from stray voltage. I wasn't referring to electromagentic fields from overhead power lines, but thanks for the information anyway. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 18-APR-1997 12:33:45.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: stray voltage and tail swishing One of the responses I received to my enquiry about stray voltage in cows mentioned a behaviour he termed "whole tail reflexive tail switching". Apparently, this is often claimed by farmers as a behavioural indicator of stray voltage. The behaviour (all the cows in the herd swishing their tails at the same time) is often preceeded by a bellow by the cow. The question is: does this behaviour indicate stray voltage or does it occur under other circumstances? Does anyone know anything about this? Jeff Rushen rushenj@em.agr.ca From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 19-APR-1997 07:06:27.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Ethology and History -Part I In discussing the aims and objectives of ethology I would venture to say that the subject has some status in assisting the process of historical analysis. I know that classical language is bent to the purposes of modern life and in special subjects comes to have new meanings. I would hold Ethology to have much of its original greek meaning. Please excuse me for stating that ethos was the greek word for character or disposition in many different contexts. For example the characteristic spirit or disposition or genius of a people, community, institution or system. It follows that ethology is the science of character, or of the formation of character either national or individual. And character is of course the peculiar distinctive qualities or traits of something. On the basis of what he wrote and believed Publius Vegetius Renatus the author of the Mulomedicina was close to being an Ethologist. He certainly could be a little 'testy' at the intrusion of those he considered ignorant referring to some veterinarii as "imperitia veterinariorum" .[ouch it's like being called a canine veterinary behaviorist] and he certainly thought little of those who used old wives' spells "praecanationes anicularum". Interestingly he was much more polite than his Greek sources, who wrote and spoke very bad Latin because they were annoyed at having to speak it (latin being the lingua franca of the empire) and who referred to the unqualified as "minus intelligentes" and "idiotae et minus scientes". Against this however we must consider that he said:- "Tame animals are kept in stalls or pastures. Untamed animals are reared and kept in wide forest or mountain pastures. Therefore it is the proper thing daily or at lest very frequently, to study the habits of domestic animals, for disease problems reveal themselves to accurate observers (diligentibus)." He also says "Primum nullius rei scientia vilis est" or " absolutely no subject is unworthy of study". Most pertinently he says:-"the greatest benefit to the domestic animal is the the love and diligence of the owners, managers and carers" So on balance I think that he would speak against exclusivity of people or matters were he party to contemporary debate. Robin Walker From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 19-APR-1997 07:23:30.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: stray voltage and tail swishing In a message dated 97-04-18 15:18:14 EDT, you write: >One of the responses I received to my enquiry about stray voltage in >cows mentioned a behaviour he termed "whole tail reflexive tail >switching". Apparently, this is often claimed by farmers as a behavioural >indicator of stray voltage. The behaviour (all the cows in the herd >swishing their tails at the same time) is often preceeded by a bellow by >the cow. If you want to be REALLY scientific, you could render the whole herd deaf and then find out if they're swishing in response to the bellow or the stray voltage. Hey, you could even get a grant to produce a strain of genetically deaf cows and turn them out to pasture and see what happens. There's definitely a career in this if you can get the funding. This is cool, Margie From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 19-APR-1997 11:07:23.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Ethology and History - Part II Dear Avian Ethologists, Come overfly (with me) a historical problem. In his highly regarded history of the Peloponnesian Wars Thucydides described the great Plague of Athens. This has been regularly dredged over by medical historians seeking a match for the meticulously described symptoms. Bubonic plague, typhus, measles, Llassa fever and many more contagious diseases have been canvassed as candidates for the effective destruction of Athenian imperialism. None of the attempts to match the human symptoms are exact overlays and all the accounts ignore the effects of the catastrophy on animals. From Thucydides, the Peloponnesian War, Book II, 47-52 (Penguin Edition trans. Rex Warner, pp 152-156 50 Words indeed fail one when on tries to give a general picture of this disease; and as for the sufferings of individuals, they seemed almost beyond the capacity of human nature to endure. Here in particualr is a point where this plague showed itself to be something quite different from ordinary diseases: though there were many dead bodies lying about unburied, the birds and animals that eat human flesh either did not come near them or, if they did taste the flesh,died of it afterwards. Evidence for this may be found in the fact that there was a complete disappearance of all birds birds of prey; they were not to be seen either round the bodies or anywhere else. But dogs being domestic animals, provided the best opportunity of observing this effect of the plague. I have always felt that this calls for serious consideration of a toxin as a cause. It is the disappearance of birds from the locality that is interesting. My thoughts as a "non-avian ethologist" are as follows:- J.Pollard, Birds in greek Life and Myth, pp. 39-40, says that the big red kite (milvus milvus) was commonly seen in summer scavenging about the cities and villages of ancient Greece. though its presence was welcomed as a sign of spring and men turned somersaults in its honour, its bold thieving habits were proverbial. Sophocles described it 'screaming as it swept p the flesh', for it was in constant attendance at sacrifices. this audacious bird would have been a familiar sight around the temples and along the wharves of Athens. It is no longer to be found in Attica but perhaps its habits may be reconstructed. I beleive that the kite (red and black0 are migratory and that in Greek times the likely wintering area would be African. Aristotle reports that the kites 'hid in the pines in winter' his science for this was that in spring they were seen to come flying out of the woods. ( he would get short shrift on applied-ethology these days). I understnd the kite favours pine wooded river-valleys as a habitat. Kites are said to pair for life and about March court elaborately and then build a nest of earth and sticks close to the main trunk of a tall, slender oak or pine. from this we may infer that the pine woods of the upper Kephissos and Acharnai, north of Athens, may have sheltered the Attican kite. (and presumable the story about the kites hiding would come from seeing these nests.) the two or three eggs are laid in mid-April and incubated by the female for about a month while being fed by the male. he continues to do this for some time after the eggs have hatched and then joins the female in foraging for the fledglings until they are two months old. the food of the kite includes any dead animal flesh, small mammals, reptiles, young or injured birds. having found food the kite flies off to find a perch on which to consume it. Now let us consider for a moment a toxin. The "plague" struck Athens around mid-May. If matters reached serious proportions within a few weeks the kites wold have been at risk while feeding their fledglings. The young would have died in the nest. the adults would have fallen to earth some distance from the scavenging site. Presumably a chain of scavenging birds kite, crows and ravens etc would have accumulated and passed on the toxin until virtual erradication occurred. The city was afflicted for 4 years. What can we postulate from the territoriality and migratory habits of the likely species that might give credence to Thucydides astonishment at the absence of such birds? The human symptoms were exactly those of the acute and chronic forms of arsenical poisoning. Abundant oportunities for accidents of substitution existed in greek commerce and husbandry. Attempt to preserve wine with sulphur and sea salt could have provided such windows for the accidental use of arsenical sulphides (much used as paint) but readily mistaken for sulpide and, when roasted, for common salt. This type of event is recorded in the forensic literature. I have calculated from the extensive forensic literature that an average 2 kg human liver post arsenical death could contain enough toxin to kill several small birds or a dog or two! . I would deeply appreciate some keen 'bird brains' pecking over my ideas. I apologise for the length. This sort of thing should and probably will reside on a home page eventually (with maps and pictures!!!) Yours sincerely, Robin Walker Profuse thanks for help will follow on its receipt! Avian and Toxocologically inclined co-authors are welcomed to assist in forcing this down the beaks of classicists. A Field trip to Lemnos in search of arsenical deposits,(and modern wines) a possibliity! From: IN%"rdecter@msn.com" "Renee Decter" 20-APR-1997 13:33:03.08 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE Membership for Dogs Jeff Rushen wrote: Oh, and I forgot to add, as a requirement to join the ISAE, at least a minimal sense of humour is required. (I guess that knocks out a lot of people on this list). Then I guess my dog Sandy can join (see my paper, Humor in Domestic Dogs on Mark Plonsky's web site as posted to the group earlier this month). I'm not degreed as yet, but can I piggy-back in on Sandy's membership? He does consider me a member of the pack. I'm enjoying reading the discussion on this issue ... but, maybe we should get back to animals???? Renee Decter From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 20-APR-1997 15:35:46.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE lists, journals etc. Since we are on the topic of email lists etc., there are some issues, related to the possible ISAE journal, that need some pondering before Prague. I suggest we investigate setting up a list purely for ISAE members that would be used only for sending out the ISAE newsletter, conference calls and information, ISAE abstracts etc. This would be controlled by John Eddison, who would be the only person able to put information on it. Of course we could still send out some of this information on applied-ethology if we wished, but people could then unsubscribe from applied-ethology, if they wished, but still be able to get ISAE information in an electronic form. Do we have the resources to do it? Any volunteers? An alternative would be to put all of this ISAE information on the ISAE web pages, so people could check it out as they wished. The problems then are knowing when new information has been added, and the number of people who don't have access to the web (are there any?). I raise this issue because there seem to be a number of ISAE people who have dropped off A-E because of the traffic, which worries me a little, especially since ISAE conference organizing is increasingly relying on A-E. I have no idea if this is widespread or worth worrying about. I see no point in having an ISAE-only version of applied-ethology as Bjarne suggested. I think we would only end up with two weaker versions of the same disorganized, but very entertaining and charming list. However, there may be a way of satisfying people who want a more scientific discussion list, while leaving applied-ethology alone. One of the publishers that we have contacted about an ISAE journal mentioned that the electronic version of the journal could be linked with a mailing list. This list would be used by subscribers of the journal who wished to circulate comments or criticisms of papers that had been published (sort of like a letter-to-the-editor or ongoing commentary section). The authors could respond etc. I think electronic publishing could be used in this way to make scientific publication much more organic. People reading an article would be able to see what (continuing) criticisms had been made of it etc. Maybe the authors could even publish later editions of the paper, reanalysing data or altering conclusions in response to criticisms, etc. It could be interesting and it would be much easier to see what progress was being made. I could discuss this with the potential publishers if you (yes, you!) are interested enough. The publishers mentioned using applied-ethology for this, but this doesn't seem to be an option. They weren't very keen on the idea of administering this list themselves, but if it dealt only with articles that had appeared on the journal, and was low traffic, maybe they could be convinced. It might be easiest to put all of this on the web pages of the journal, rather than dumping it in your email box, but then, how do we notify people that something has been added? About *the journal*: I have contacted the two most likely publishers (CABI and Elsevier) who will be sending a detailed offer for us to vote on at Prague. I have been contacted by a number of other publishers, who seem very interested in such a journal. The fact that others seem enthusiastic about it makes me think that we really should take care not to miss an opportunity. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"dmills@dmu.ac.uk" "dmills" 21-APR-1997 06:55:49.14 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: clinical ethology questionnaires. The recent international meeting in veterinary behavioural medicine held in Birmingham earlier this month highlighted the problems facing clinical ethology. Some of which have been raised recently on this net. One of the most obvious needs is for a standardisation of data gathering and with this in mind we have a small amount of funding towards trying to obtain a consensus of opinion. The aim of the project which is a joint initiative with Karen Overall at the University of Pennsylvania, is to produce a global interview questionnaire. Not all of the questionnaire will be relevant to every case but it at least standardfises the information that we are obtaining. Once formulated the questionnaire will be freely available to all. At this stage I would like to ask anyone out there using behaviour history forms to send me or Karen a copy of it, so we can encompass all relevant information whatever the cultural background. These will of course be treated in confidence if required. It is to be hoped that this may help in the drive towards recognised scientific standards within the field of clinical ethology. They do not need to be in English if you are unable to translate them. Thanking you all for your assistance in this work Daniel Mills De Montfort University Lincoln School of Agriculture and Horticulture Caythorpe Court Caythorpe Lincs NG32 3EP UK Fax 01400 273708 or email dmills@dmu.ac.uk From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl" 22-APR-1997 03:52:53.50 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: ISAE lists, journals etc. **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 **************************************************************************** Dear Jeff In reply to your queries concerning the email applied ethology & the proposed journal. The problem with the email you have outlined & there is so much on it, it is tempting just to leave it. The point of a journal is that there will be some editorial & therefore more thoughtful pieces submitted & published. However if it is going to be of interest to people like me with a serious concern not only with scienfitic dogma but with the wider issues implicit in Applied ethology, then it is crucial that a multi-disciplinary editorial board is chosen who will entertain the publication of any well thought out piece. If tjhis is not the case, then I cannot see there is a need for another journal which will just give more space for papers of very little interest however 'good' the measurements. The animal science journals, animal production, and the elsevier applied animal behaviour journal already do this. I would back a multi-disciplinary well edited journal publishing things that are not otherwise easy to confront for the normal 'scientific' readership & an open web where there may remain much banter, and junk for some, but gives everyone a chance to chatter. After all if it is boring, no one has to read it.... just delate. I have been surprised at the support on the email ( from my short and very half heareted experience with it )that has been shown for what are often considered' unscientific nonsense'. Can it be that applied ethology is growing up & away from as Rollin puts it , we do not have to test that branding hurts animals! Marthe Kiley-Worthington. From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl" 22-APR-1997 04:03:59.40 To: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" "ws31" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Education On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:25 -0400 (EDT) ws31 wrote: > From: ws31 > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:25 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Education > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Moria, I stand firmly behind what I said about a Ph.D. and education. > What I said was not an insult to you as a graduate student (nor do I believe > to anyone else for that matter). To Moria and others, do you really believe > your Ph.D. degree should be given the same value as that of B.Sc. > when you later apply for a faculty or other position? Do the > taxpayers-members of the public actually wish to have an educational system > that produces a Ph.D. with NO more expertise than a B.Sc.? > > I said, "Education is a process of discrimination against IGNORANCE." I > further said that, "It is NOT a process of discimination against PEOPLE." > > Education MUST be a process of dicrimination against ignorance. Otherwise, > no progress can be made. Education MUST NOT give equal status to all > ideas. > > There is a big difference between discrimination against (bad) ideas and > discrimination against people. My profession, as an educator, PRACTICES the > first, while I ABHOR the other. (I strongly believe that all persons > should have access to education - which is a completely different issue.) > > I did not say that a university should be based on a PEOPLE-SOCIAL hierarchy. > In fact I stated the opposite. I said that NOT EVEN the parking locations on > a campus should be based on or related to degree (and by extension, any other > rank order system). > > Today, it may be politically correct to allow everyone to have their own > opinion. But this does not mean that all opinions are of equal merit. > Earlier this week I heard a portion of a debate on National Public Radio > between a creationist-scientist and an evoluntionary biologist. The former > stated that Jesus was the greatest scientist that ever lived. This is utter > non-sense; it is IGNORANCE. I happen to strongly agree with the simple > statement, "God is love" - but it is not based on _science_. One did not set > up the null hypothesis, "God is not love" and then collect data that allowed > rejection of the null statement. Regardless of how perfect or how important > one considers the life of Jesus to be, it was not in any way _science_. (And > I don't want to create any argument on any of these issues. I simply use > this example to show how absurd this notion of giving equal status to all > ideas can become.) > > The Applied Ethology list should not equal standing to all ideas. A good > search engine will pull up the archives from the Univ of Sasktachewan > server. Because this information is labeled under the title of Applied > Ethology, the persons whose profession is Applied Ethology are influenced by > what is written within these files. > > To Moria and all aspiring Applied Ethologists, I do not think that you > should be thrawted from expressing your ideas on the Applied-Ethology server > (or elsewhere for that matter). I do, however, feel that unless you, your > colleagues, and your mentors work to establish some professional standards, > then your future and the future of Applied Ethology is at some risk. > > > Ray Stricklin > Department of Animal and Avian Sciences > University of Maryland **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 **************************************************************************** If Christ was not a scientist, then is Dr Strickling God I ask myself? Perhaps he could start thinking about what is science, what is knoweldge what is love and why cannot it not be scientific? Come on Dr Strickland, stop laying down the law with God on your side.... education is about debate, thought, and developing opinions, not dogma surely. From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl" 22-APR-1997 05:20:38.31 To: IN%"arkabc@arkanimals.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Ark Animal Tracks has moved, seeks contributors..... **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 **************************************************************************** I am interested in joining your group and contributing, but I am vague about what it is centrally concerned with. I am an ethologists busy working on cognition with wild and domestic animals and in particular animal educational psychology, in process of programme with elephatns and rhinos at the moment and also work alot in zoos & farms. Please send more details. Dr.Marthe Kiley-Worthington From: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" 22-APR-1997 05:44:40.26 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: me and god Dear All, I didn't realize before that God was on my side - but it looks like I can use all the help available in trying to make what I would think to be a simple point, which I will say again: ALL IDEAS ARE NOT EQUAL! EDUCATION IS NOT AN EGALITRIAN PROCESS! The earth is flat. All science was developed in Egypt and then stolen by the Europeans. Animal sarifice appeases the moon-goddess responsible for fertility. Creation of all life occurred in one 24-hour period. The thoughts of animals can be determined through telepathy. I am quite willing to stand in opposition to those persons who believe our educational system should NOT discriminate against these ideas. When I took took my one course in Philosophy of Science, _one_ of the definitions of Science (and please note that I emphasize that it is only one of many) was as follows: "The consensus position among the knowledgeable persons of a given subject area." I see no reason for altering this definition. I also point out that science and education are not necessarily the same thing. Science must always be open to new ideas. Education is in fact at some level dogma and cannot be open to all positions. A front page article in the Washington Post this morning (April 22) read in part: WHOSE SHADE OF GREEN? Critics Find Environmental Bias in Schools. The problem, as some Texas officials described it, was the "unbalanced" view children in public schools were getting about pollution. So two weeks ago, the government got a little help from the experts: the biggest polluters in the state. At a seminar for educators, leading oil and chemical corporations were invited to offer advice on teaching children about the environment... One brochure, produced by Exxon, touted the advantages of gasoline power over electric vehicles. ... Critics of environmental education say children are being "scared green" by textbooks and a mass media that serve up a steady diet of gloomy, politically slanted messages about the planet's future. ... Both sides agree the criticism has begun to have an effect: One state- Arizona - has abolished mandatory environmental study in public schools... I am still quite willing to stand and say that "Education is a process that discriminates against ignorance (and also misinformation as noted above)." Does one really wish to believe the contrary? Should "education" be a process that does _not_ discriminate against (but rather tolerates, accepts, or endorses) ignorance? Ignorance by definition means "being uneducated, uninformed, or unaware and lacking knowledge" - all of which I oppose and believe should be conquered, not through oppression but rather by education - education that discriminates against ideas that lack standing (among some knowledgeable group, usually identified as scientists). Now that God is willing to join in and help me on this matter, I believe that I will move on to some other topic. Ray Stricklin Department of Animal and Avian Sciences University of Maryland From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl" 22-APR-1997 06:21:16.12 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: The Tethering of Species **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 **************************************************************************** I was interested in your questions concerning tethering. It is I surpose a form of learnt helplessness as you describe it, but it can and is useful and is used almost throughout animal treaching.... if anyone has examples of where an animal has never been restricted but taught, I would be interested. Because it is common does not of course mean it is acceptable. But on the other hand when one starts to examine the practises that might be used without the animal learning to be tethered, there are often greater problems for the individuals ( as well as the humans). Monty Roberts by the way does not work with completely wild horses, they have been lead and tethered in one way or anopther before he starts. Wild animals can be approached and approach humans if body langauge is used approprately, but at some point there will usually be a need for some form of tethering if the animal is going to be used or perform things with humans. One of the positive points of tethering is that the animal soon learns that the tether is a secure place and that any conflicts he may have as a result of his other experiences and contacts with other species, will not continue within his tether area. It is therefore extreemely important to ensure that the tether area is always free of problems, form the animals point of view. This means that the tether can be used to reduce stresses and conflict when the animals is having to become accustomed to different and new situations, leading a naive dog through traffic for example rather than having him loose. There is no need for the animals to have to fight the tether and for it to develop into a learnt helplessness situation however. If it is introduced quietly and with aproapriate movementts from the humans and positive reinforcement, the animal does not need to fight it, wheather it is a buffalo or an oxen being taught to work in draught, an elephant to pull a cart, a horse to pull a plough or carry a rider or any other species. It is a question of how it is done, not wheather it is done, and indeed there is often higher levels of distress shown by animals that are confined in cages or loose boxes etc than those that are tethered ( see my book Animals in Circuses & Zoos, 1990, Little Eco-Farms Publishing, Basildon, also). and occassional publication from Eco Research Centre, Throwleigh, Okehampton Devon). However prolonged tethering is unacceptable to the animal, and it is a question of how much is too much. Circus elepants have not to be off the tehr for 12 hrrs a day, and we have been working with orphaned african elephants and having the quite unrestricted (no fences ) all the time except for at night). So there remain a host of questions, but the important thing is that tethering must improve the overall quality of life for the tethered not just be used as a human convenience. Dr. Marthe Kiley-Worthington studying animal eduacational psychology. . From: IN%"cbrandau@knox.mindspring.com" "Claire Brandau" 22-APR-1997 08:02:55.08 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Education At 11:05 AM 4/22/97 +0100, you wrote: >If Christ was not a scientist, then is Dr Strickling God I ask myself? Perhaps he could start thinking about what is science, what is >knoweldge what is love and why cannot it not be scientific? Come on Dr Strickland, stop laying down the law with God on your side.... >education is about debate, thought, and developing opinions, not dogma surely. I happen to believe that Christ was a great teacher and a prophet. The key word here is BELEIVE. I just don't understand the argument above. Christ a scientist? No. Christ taught his followers about accepting love and whatnot on faith. Science is based on empiricism. Empiricism by definition is the very opposite of faith. Dr. Strickland is not claiming to "lay down the law" or that "God is on (his) side." I think he's merely pointing out that education is going down the toilet. How this became a spiritual issue I have no clue. There's no denying that higher education is going down the toilet. From my experience in the university setting, I believe it to be true (of course keep in mind this is only my opinion based on my BELIEF and therefore by definition is not empirical fact!). From: IN%"cbrandau@knox.mindspring.com" "Claire Brandau" 22-APR-1997 08:26:27.14 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: me and god At 07:42 AM 4/22/97 -0400, you wrote: > > ALL IDEAS ARE NOT EQUAL! EDUCATION IS NOT AN EGALITRIAN PROCESS! Unless of course you can REEEEELLY throw a football. > >The earth is flat. >All science was developed in Egypt and then stolen by the Europeans. >Animal sarifice appeases the moon-goddess responsible for fertility. DOES IT? Hey, maybe THAT'S my problem! I'll get right on it!!! >Creation of all life occurred in one 24-hour period. >The thoughts of animals can be determined through telepathy. I just spoke with my Fluffy (my boa), and he disagrees with the Creation part. He's quick to remind you that it is also possible to fortell the future by examining the spleen of a bird! > ... Critics of environmental education say children are being "scared >green" by textbooks and a mass media that serve up a steady diet of gloomy, >politically slanted messages about the planet's future. > ... Both sides agree the criticism has begun to have an effect: One state- >Arizona - has abolished mandatory environmental study in public schools... Another scary example for you. This one closer to home. This happened at the University of Tn. One of our forestry professors included in his reading packet a presentation given at the Conference of the Society of American Foresters held within the last year. The subject? How environmentalism was responsible for destroying the family values of the country, and that environmentalists were all going to pay on judgement day. The fact that this person gave this presentation is not the point. The fact that we were given this to read AND BE TESTED ON AS FACT is what gave me the problem. >Should "education" be a process >that does _not_ discriminate against (but rather tolerates, accepts, or >endorses) ignorance? Ignorance by definition means "being uneducated, >uninformed, or unaware and lacking knowledge" - all of which I oppose and >believe should be conquered, not through oppression but rather by education - >education that discriminates against ideas that lack standing (among some >knowledgeable group, usually identified as scientists). Unfortunately this is happening already. Has been for some time. It's called "don't worry about the test scores. I'll grade on a curve." I heard a disturbing report on All Things Considered the other day. They were talking about the rising cost of education. Many of the public institutions that raise tuition do so not only because of budget cuts, but also because of image. There is a widespread notion that if a college is not expensive, than it must not be good. It must not be "elite" enough for their kid. So prices are bumped up for the image. It's the old Levi vs Wrangler argument. They are still jeans, but Levi is cooler because it's more expensive. What it boils down to is this. Anyone with the money can get a college education, regardless of their ability to actually ACHIEVE one. Remember when it was an achievement to get a degree? Now it's an expectation. And what about President Clinton's ideas on a higher education. He said in a recent speech that he was going to make it his goal to see that every 8 year old could read. Excellent idea. Every 8th grader will have computer access. Also an excellent idea. And every American will earn a bachelor's degree....Whoa! In essence it is his goal to make an undergrad degree as meaningless as a high school GED in the real world. Gee, thanks. Claire M. Brandau Univ. of TN Knoxville Dpt of Wildlife and Fisheries Science Lowly undergrad in search of a good masters program From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 22-APR-1997 08:55:40.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Education >..education is going down the toilet. How this became a spiritual >issue I have no clue. There's no denying that higher education is >going down the toilet. The Dumping of Education? What will be the outflow of all this? From: IN%"Mette.Giersing@lmv.slu.se" "Mette Giersing" 22-APR-1997 09:07:09.26 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Welcome to APPLIED-ETHOLOGY Is there any chance of this list getting back to its basic purpose? Just a reminder of the original message, which you have probably deleted long ago: > >You are now subscribed to APPLIED-ETHOLOGY. > >This e-mail network was set up for the exchange of information, discussions, >announcements, news items, etc. that are of interest to people working and >studying in the field of applied animal ethology. This network was the >initiative of members from the ISAE (International Society for Applied >Ethologist) with the help of computer systems experts from the University of >Saskatchewan. Non-ISAE members, with an interest in applied animal ethology, >are welcome to participate. > >REMOVAL FROM NETWORK: >If at anytime you wish to be removed from the network, send message to: > > applied-ethology-request@sask.usask.ca > >Within the text of your message (NOT at the subject header) you must type the >command: > > UNSUBSCRIBE applied-ethology > >RECEIVING AND SENDING MESSAGES: >ALL messages which you receive from Applied-ethology will come to you, listing >the originator of the message on the "From:" line in your header. The "To:" >line in your header will indicate that the message was sent to the Applied- >ethology network and it has been forwarded to all subscribers. If you wish to >REPLY to a message (using your REPLY function) your message will be SENT to the >originator and NOT the entire network. > >Therefore, each time you wish to send a message to the entire network you >MUST address each message to: > > Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > >Any difficulties you may have in sending messages can usually be answered by >your local computer support staff. Any additional questions about this network, >which are not intended to be read by the entire network, should be sent to: > stookey@sask.usask.ca > >When using this network we ask that you please refrain from the use of >profanity and avoid comments which could be interpreted as a personal attack on >someone with an opposing viewpoint. Disagreements should be stated in a >manner fitting an open forum or public debate. > >We ask that you take the time to introduce yourself to the network at your >earliest convenience and briefly state your interest. > >We welcome you to the Applied-ethology network and ask you to participate, >contribute and enjoy! > >Joseph M. Stookey >stookey@sask.usask.ca > > Mette.Giersing@lmv.slu.se Mette Giersing Linder Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences Dept. of Food Science P.O.Box 7051 S-750 07 Uppsala Tel. +46 18 671226 Fax +46 18 672995 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 22-APR-1997 09:14:55.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: me and god -and telepathic dogs >>> ws31 22/04/ 07h42 >>> Dear All, I didn't realize before that God was on my side >>> well He may not be entirely..... >>>The thoughts of animals can be determined through telepathy. I am quite willing to stand in opposition to those persons who believe our educational system should NOT discriminate against these ideas.>>> I agree with discriminating in favour of an idea for which there is a lot of evidence, and against an opposing idea, where the evidence is against it. But things aren't usually that simple. In fact, I don't believe there is much evidence against animal telepathy ( I would be surprised if many people have looked at it). There doesn't seem to be evidence in favour of it, but is this fair if no one has actually done any research on it? The reason why most scientists reject animal telepathy is because studies on human telepathy have failed to come up with anything substantial. But more importantly, because it is difficult to imagine a mechanism for animal telepathy that would not conflict with what we know about physics, biology etc. It is reasonable to discriminate in favour of "an established body of knowledge" against a conflicting idea for which there is no evidence. But often we discriminate against such ideas even when there is evidence in their favour. For example, when continental drift was proposed, there was actually some evidence for it. However, the vast majority of scientists rejected it because it appeared to conflict with the established body of knowledge about geo-thermal dynamics. If I know the story correctly, there were also not many attempts to come up with better explanations of the evidence. It was just ignored. (am I right?). Unfortunately, it turned out that continental drift was correct, and the established body of knowledge was wrong. I am all in favour of an educational system that says " as yet there is no evidence for animal telepathy and it appears to conflict with what we know about physics and biology etc.". But I am not in favour of an educational system which says "animal telepathy does not exist because there is a consensus among scientsists that it does not exist". Very often when we are discriminating against an opinion, we are discriminating in favour of established, consistent theories, and against evidence (even if apparently reliable) that just doesn't fit in. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl" 22-APR-1997 09:20:16.22 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: evolution of visual and auditory signals **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 **************************************************************************** My D.Phil thesis University of Sussex 1969 was on the evolution of auditory and visula signals in higher mammals, ungulates, canids and felids. You might find this useful. Sorry I have lost the address of the particular correspondant who asked. Also fllowed up by a couple of papers in Behaviour on the origin and evolution of vocalisations & tail movements, I also covered ear movements, facial expressions, postures etc. I dont think there has been anything to supplant my general conclusions yet, but I may be wrong. Dr.Marthe Kiley-Worthington From: IN%"cbrandau@knox.mindspring.com" "Claire Brandau" 22-APR-1997 09:54:33.47 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Welcome to APPLIED-ETHOLOGY At 05:05 PM 4/22/97 +0200, you wrote: >Is there any chance of this list getting back to its basic purpose? > >Just a reminder of the original message, which you have probably deleted >long ago: > >> >>You are now subscribed to APPLIED-ETHOLOGY. Actually, those were my first posts to the group. Sorry if it gave you a problem. I was replying to the only dialogue I have received since joining this newsgroup. I haven't heard any discourse on ethology thus far, and didn't want to be accused of lurking. Besides, the comments interested me. Sorry for the inconvenience. Claire From: IN%"Susanne.Waiblinger@vu-wien.ac.at" "Susanne Waiblinger" 22-APR-1997 10:16:11.36 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: new member Hello all, I=92m a new member of the applied ethology discussion group. I=92m veterinarian, did a project on human-animal relationship on farms with loose housing of horned dairy cows and now I started to work at the Institute for Animal Husbandry and Animal Welfare of the University of Ve-terinary Medicine in Vienna. The main fields of interest and work are human-animal relationship and welfare indicators especially of cattle. Looking forward for interesting discussions Susanne Waiblinger =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Veterinaermedizinische Universitaet Wien Institut f=FCr Tierhaltung und Tierschutz Josef Baumann Gasse 1 A-1210 Wien Tel.:0043/1/25077 4905 Fax: 0043/1/25077 4990 email: Susanne.Waiblinger@vu-wien.ac.at =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From: IN%"cbrandau@knox.mindspring.com" "Claire Brandau" 22-APR-1997 10:25:20.72 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: interesting situation We have a rather interesting situation here at the Knoxville Zoo. We have just removed a ten month old African lion cub (male) from quarantine, and he is now on exhibit. We also have two females of the same age. They are still in quarantine, but will soon join the young male. None of these animals are represented in the SSP program yet, so this is exciting for us to say the least. Anyway, what really interests me is their differing backgrounds, and how that may affect their initial interactions. Aslan, the male, was (unfortunately) raised as a pet from birth. He is essentially a big housecat. The staff at the zoo will treat him as a wild animal from this point on. The females came from a facility in South Africa. Although they were raised in captivity they were kept in huge holding pens where human contact was kept minimal. For all intents and purposes their behavior is that of wild-caught animals. I have two questions. Any big cat folks out there, please feel free to e-mail me privately. I'm searching for some good background articles and books and whatever concerning the differences in wild and captive felid behavior. Or similarities, for that matter. I'm also asking for opinions, at the risk of sounding anthropomorphic. If a wild animal is raised as a pet for its entire upbringing, is it ethical to deny it the human contact it has grown accustomed to? Is it ethical to continue to encourage the behavior with continued human contact? I ask this as we have experienced both extremes at KZG. Claire M. Brandau University of TN Knoxville Dpt of Wildlife and Fisheries Science From: IN%"cbrandau@knox.mindspring.com" "Claire Brandau" 22-APR-1997 10:44:53.67 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re:me and God > > ALL IDEAS ARE NOT EQUAL! EDUCATION IS NOT AN EGALITRIAN PROCESS! Unless of course you can REEEEELLY throw a football. > >The earth is flat. >All science was developed in Egypt and then stolen by the Europeans. >Animal sarifice appeases the moon-goddess responsible for fertility. DOES IT? Hey, maybe THAT'S my problem! I'll get right on it!!! >Creation of all life occurred in one 24-hour period. >The thoughts of animals can be determined through telepathy. I just spoke with my Fluffy (my boa), and he disagrees with the Creation part. He's quick to remind you that it is also possible to fortell the future by examining the spleen of a bird! > ... Critics of environmental education say children are being "scared >green" by textbooks and a mass media that serve up a steady diet of gloomy, >politically slanted messages about the planet's future. > ... Both sides agree the criticism has begun to have an effect: One state- >Arizona - has abolished mandatory environmental study in public schools... Another scary example for you. This one closer to home. This happened at the University of Tn. One of our forestry professors included in his reading packet a presentation given at the Conference of the Society of American Foresters held within the last year. The subject? How environmentalism was responsible for destroying the family values of the country, and that environmentalists were all going to pay on judgement day. The fact that this person gave this presentation is not the point. The fact that we were given this to read AND BE TESTED ON AS FACT is what gave me the problem. >Should "education" be a process >that does _not_ discriminate against (but rather tolerates, accepts, or >endorses) ignorance? Ignorance by definition means "being uneducated, >uninformed, or unaware and lacking knowledge" - all of which I oppose and >believe should be conquered, not through oppression but rather by education - >education that discriminates against ideas that lack standing (among some >knowledgeable group, usually identified as scientists). Unfortunately this is happening already. Has been for some time. It's called "don't worry about the test scores. I'll grade on a curve." I heard a disturbing report on All Things Considered the other day. They were talking about the rising cost of education. Many of the public institutions that raise tuition do so not only because of budget cuts, but also because of image. There is a widespread notion that if a college is not expensive, than it must not be good. It must not be "elite" enough for their kid. So prices are bumped up for the image. It's the old Levi vs Wrangler argument. They are still jeans, but Levi is cooler because it's more expensive. What it boils down to is this. Anyone with the money can get a college education, regardless of their ability to actually ACHIEVE one. Remember when it was an achievement to get a degree? Now it's an expectation. And what about President Clinton's ideas on a higher education. He said in a recent speech that he was going to make it his goal to see that every 8 year old could read. Excellent idea. Every 8th grader will have computer access. Also an excellent idea. And every American will earn a bachelor's degree....Whoa! In essence it is his goal to make an undergrad degree as meaningless as a high school GED in the real world. Gee, thanks. Claire M. Brandau Univ. of TN Knoxville Dpt of Wildlife and Fisheries Science Lowly undergrad in search of a good masters program From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 22-APR-1997 11:46:59.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Telepathic Animals Anyone interested in telepathic communication with animals should really check out: http://www.CyberArk.com/animal/telepath.htm The Truth is out there........ Jon;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"arion@dialatlanta.com" 22-APR-1997 21:50:49.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Education i have always thought it arrogant and illogical to posit a god and then suggest that he might do something according to human prescription, since a priori, the ethology of god is unknowable in any of the customary ways our science and logic prove things but not to worry since we can make our puppet god do what we choose since his definition is his creation and we are the creators well except that in a monotheistic system the concept of definition and the concept of god are mutually incompatible (you really ought to ban rogue philosophers from the list) to me education is the process of instilling in the student the way to formulate questions and the means to research for the answers on the other hand, there is training, which is something different. it is directing the actions towards a specific outcome in the process of training one may limit exposure to extraneous or distracting stimuli in order not to confuse the student, but in the process of education one learns to recognize the role of each stimulus as it comes along so a person who is an educator needn't fear for the quality of his students' work if he has well taught them the ways to guide critical and creative thought and the mechanisms to achieve a goal in fact, fear in education has caused great difficulties all throughout human history the bigger problem in education is not inferior subject matter, but inferior educators so back to the original idea that the cowboy may know the behavior of range cattle, but isn't an ethologist, i might only answer that if you want the cowboy to speak he must be where he can hear your question... ...which if anyone except Jeff talked about cattle here... Chris, taught by Jesuits to be obnoxius but not a PhD From: IN%"Anna.Olsson@sjv.se" "Anna Olsson" 23-APR-1997 01:04:32.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: new member -Svar Dear Susanne, I read your introduction on the network and found that you have worked with horned cattle in loose-housing systems. Several of my colleagues at the Swedish Board of Agriculture have been working with the item, since the praxis of de-horning cattle has been a matter of discussion here. If you have any printed work on the subject, we would be happy to share it (German is no problem!). Yours sincerely, Anna Olsson animal housing & welfare - organic animal husbandry Swedish Board of Agriculture Division for Animal Production and Management S-551 82 Jonkoping Sweden e-mail Anna.Olsson@sjv.se tel +46-36-155000 fax +46-36-308182 "Industrialization has transformed an agriculture created for the purpose of converting solar energy into human-useful form, into an agriculture that uses more nonrenewable energy from fossils than it captures as solar energy from the sun. But what is perhaps more important is that these industrial systems degrade their human resource base. Large specialized factory farms transform independent decision makers into people who know how to follow instructions or directions but not necessarily know how to think or make decisions." John Ikerd University of Minnesota From: IN%"pkabai@ns.univet.hu" "Kabai Peter" 23-APR-1997 02:53:27.01 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Deer Biology Congress, 98 Dear Colleagues, here is the second circular about the 98 DBC. Please, do not respond to this e-mail address, but use the ones indicated in the circular. Best regards, Peter Kabai ************************************************************* 4th INTERNATIONAL DEER BIOLOGY CONGRESS ************************************************************* Preliminary e-mail circular This announcement will be followed by a printed circular. Should you need a printed circular, please, let us know your postal address by writing to zomborszky@deer98.kaposvar.pate.hu or post at : Laszlo Sugar, 4th IDBC, 8360 Keszthely, Deak F.16, Hungary ************************************************************* On behalf of the Scientific Steering Committee and the PANNON University of Agriculture Faculty of Animal Science, Kaposvar you are cordially invited to attend the 4th International Deer Biology Congress June 30 - July 4, 1998 in Kaposvar, Hungary. SCIENTIFIC PROGRAM The objective of the meeting is to bring together experts in various branches of the biology and management of natural, farmed and zoo-kept deer populations. The contributions will be grouped into four main topics. 1) ECOLOGICALLY SOUND MANAGEMENT (ecology, management and conservation of deer) program organiser: Dr. Sandor Csanyi, e-mail: csanyi@deer98.kaposvar.pate.hu 2) GENETICS AND REPRODUCTION (genetic structure of populations/herds, identification and conservation of species/subspecies, biology of reproduction, optimal production on farms, biotechnological methods) program organiser: Dr. Peter Kabai, e-mail: kabai@deer98.kaposvar.pate.hu 3)FEEDING STRATEGIES AND NUTRITION (habitat use, diet, nutritional needs of zoo and farmed deer) program organiser: Dr. Laszlo Szemethy, e-mail: szemethy@deer98.kaposvar.pate.hu 4) HEALTH, DISEASE AND WELFARE (condition, stress, parasites and diseases of natural and farmed deer, diagnostics and hygiene) program organiser: Dr. Zoltan Zomborszky, e-mail: zomborszky@deer98.kaposvar.pate.hu Each topic has one day to explore its subject, starting with an introductory lecture, and followed by plenary lecture(s), oral presentations and posters, workshop(s) and exhibitions. The introductory lectures will discuss the terminology and methods of the main topics, so that basic information will be given for those working outside of the specific area. The plenary lecture(s) will review the latest developments in the field. Oral presentations and posters will discuss original results. The subject of the workshops will be suggested by the participants. The exhibition area will present products manufactured by various companies. LANGUAGE: the official language of the Congress will be English. ACCOMMODATION AND TRAVEL TIPS as well as information on registration will be given later. The organisers will do as much as they can to keep costs down, to provide financial support, reduced registration fees and affordable accommodation for students and for participants from the countries in a state of transition or development. DEADLINES: September 15, 1997. - pre-registration, suggestions for workshop topics January 15, 1998. - registration, abstract together with transfer of registration fee (25% reduction) May 15, 1998. - registration, transfer of registration fee (10% reduction) June 30, 1998. - registration on site (full registration fee) The scientific program of the Congress will be organised by the Scientific Steering Committee: Ken Drew, Chairman, Mosgiel, NZ Robert D. Brown Nagle Hill, TX, USA Hugh W. Reid Edinburgh, UK Jerry C. Haigh Saskatoon, Canada Nicholas J.C. Tyler Tromso, Norway Antoine J. Sempere Villiers-enBois, France Olga B. Pereladova Moscow, Russia Laszlo Sugar Keszthely, Hungary Members of the Local Organising Committee are responsible for the various aspects of the Congress: Laszlo Sugar (sugar@deer98.kaposvar.pate.hu) Chairman Sandor Csanyi (csanyi@deer98.kaposvar.pate.hu) Organiser of topic: Ecologically Sound Management Peter Kabai (kabai@deer98.kaposvar.pate.hu) Organiser of topic: Genetics and Reproduction Laszlo Szemethy (szemethy@deer98.kaposvar.pate.hu) Organiser of topic: Feeding Strategies and Nutrition Zoltan Zomborszky (zomborszky@deer98kaposvar.pate.hu) Secretary and organiser of topic: Health, Disease and Welfare Peter Horn Rector of the PANNON University, local host Gyorgy Kovach responsible for publications Istvan Heltay (heltay@deer98.kaposvar.pate.hu) responsible for exhibition and sponsors Please, send your questions, comments and pre-registration form to zomborszky@deer98.kaposvar.pate.hu, or post it to Dr. Laszlo Sugar, 4th IDBC, 8360 Keszthely, Deak F. 16, Hungary Do not hesitate to contact the local organisers directly to discuss the scientific programme. Please return the preliminary registration form by September 15, 1997. If you reply by e-mail, please cut out all text above this form before sending it back, to reduce the load on our computer. /*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/ ******************************************************* PRELIMINARY REGISTRATION FORM 4TH INTERNATIONAL DEER BIOLOGY CONGRESS ******************************************************* (01) Last (family) name: (02) First (given) name: (03) Middle name initial: (04) Title and position (Dr., Ph.D. student etc.): (05) Sex (male or female): (06) Affiliation: (07) Street address: (08) City/town: (09) Country (and state): (10) Postal code: (11) Telephone: (12) e-mail: I intend to submit (13) an oral presentation: yes - no (14) a poster presentation: yes - no My presentation is relevant to the following Congress topic: (15) Ecologically Sound Management: yes - no (16) Genetics and Reproduction: yes - no (17) Feeding Strategies and Nutrition: yes - no (18) Health, Disease and Welfare: yes - no None of the above. I propose to organise a topic on (19): I would like to organise a workshop on (20): Please keep me informed on the Congress (21) at this postal/e-mail address: */*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/ From: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net" 23-APR-1997 21:25:03.96 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: interesting situation Clare Brandau wrote > > I'm also asking for opinions, at the risk of sounding anthropomorphic. If a > wild animal is raised as a pet for its entire upbringing, is it ethical to > deny it the human contact it has grown accustomed to? Is it ethical to > continue to encourage the behavior with continued human contact? I ask this > as we have experienced both extremes at KZG. > > Claire M. Brandau > University of TN Knoxville > Dpt of Wildlife and Fisheries Science I am new to this mailing list and basically here as a observer. I am not an ethologist or anyother type of scientist. I have not introduced my self before for those reasons. I live on a farm in West Michigan where we have two African Elephants, male and female. 14 and 15 years old. I have been living with elephants now for 9 years and my husband, W.C. Walters has been working with elephants and other exotics ever for over 25 years. Together we have a lot of experience to draw our opinions from regarding the behavior of certain types of animals through observation, training and handling. Regarding the lions. If the male in question is only 10 months old he has not spent a large amount of time in the direct company of humans and he is still young with room to adjust. If this animal had been years older then perhaps he should not be cut off from human contact without a transitional period but cats in our experience quickly adjust to changes that give them the freedom to follow their instincts. The safest choice for cats appears to be the one made by the zoo: treating them as wild caught. This is safest for the zookeepers and for the cat particularly as he reaches maturity. I wil add that if the cat had been trained and raised by a professional cat trainer then perhaps human interaction could continue but if he was raised in someones home or by someone unfamiliar with cats then it cold be extremely dangerous, as many of you know to work with an animal that may not have had any structured training or guidelines. Now, if the animals in question had been elephants and in particular an elephant that had been working closely with people in a hands on, free contact situation then our opinion based on years of experience is that a transitional period of adjustment should be included in the transition to protected or no contact. Elephants are very intelligent and it has been observed by many members off the Elephant Managers Association and by various zoos that the elephant reacts as if it is being punished by isolation away from the people and or trainers that is has worked closely with. At the risk of my sounding athrophomorphic, which I don't mind, elephants in certain situations bond with humans and appear to consider those humans as members of their herds. If an elephant were introduced to a new group like the lions that elephant may shy from the new members because they are not part of her herd and adjustments and new bonds would have to be made. I would also like to add a quote I admire about education regarding the other thread being discussed on this list about God, education etc..just as food for thought, nothing scientific. "The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teachers demonstrates. The great teacher inspires." Dr. William Arthur Ward Thanks, Sincerely, Sheree Walters -- Ivory Haven - Laura The Elephant's House on The Web: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248 "By sharing a vision... perhaps others may expand their horizons as well through the energy that most personal journeys create." S. Walters From: IN%"agnethe-iren.sandem@nlhstud.nlh.no" "Agnethe-Iren Sandem" 24-APR-1997 05:27:38.49 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hello! I am a MSc student in ethology at the Agricultural University of Norway. As a part of my study I have just started a project in wich I want to survey the meaning of having a cat as a companion in Norway with a questionnaire. Respecting this project I am interested in ideas and thoughts of subjects wich is important in human-cat interactions. agnethe-iren.sandem@student.nlh.no From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 24-APR-1997 05:31:32.64 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: me and god -and telepathic dogs I agree with Jeff's views about "telepathy" and would like to add the following. I think the scientific attitude is neither to a priori deny it's existence nor to consider it be an established fact, but to take the following approach. One cannot but see that each year thousands of cases are reported in humans and animals (mostly companion -). In itself it does not carry any scientific value as each case can be due to deception, interpretation, selective memory, subliminal perception, etc. It is hence worth while to take an experimental approach, without endeavouring to demonstrate the existence or its inexistence (which does not exclude of course the classical null hypothesis in the statistical procedure). So one should stimulate accurate observations and experiments as much as possible in the "natural setting" to begin with (a bit like the old Tinbergen field work). If more precise factors appear one can then move to the laboratory. The problem is that quite a lot of people who are "experimenting" are already convinced in advance about the answer. They are "believers" or "non-believers" who want to demonstrate their view, which can interfere with the set-up of the experiments (scientists can be cheated by agile magicians, hence the importance of advice from such people) or with the interpretation of the results. An example. Some weeks ago Rupert Sheldrake came to give us an interesting conference on the subject in animals. I deem it very positive he carried out the following observations on dogs who react by e.g. go and sit in front of the window at the moment their master decides to return home. The set-up excluded perception of a familiar car. During hours before that decision the dog's frequency of sitting before the window was recorded. His data show that that frequency suddenly rises substantially when the owner DECIDES to leave. He presented us similar data obtained with the same dog by a member from a British "sceptic" group (as I am here in Belgium). That was a N=1 observation. He is increasing the group under supervision from colleagues from Madingley. Three reactions: Technical: That's the way forward, but it should be repeated on many different times of the day, extra control for cheating trough e.g. physical signals given to the already conditioned dog, etc. Secondly, it's only the first step which should show there is indeed an unusual phenomenon (and no illusion), which tells nothing on "how" it happens. Thirdly, Let's imagine theretically an experimentally "clean" test with similar results. I now come to the main point made above: the interpretation. The difference between the author and myself (and I presume many other colleagues) was that he would draw a "positive" conclusion, i.e. telepathy has been demonstrated, while I could only say scientifically in a "negative" way that it has been demonstrated that selective memory has been excluded (e.g. forgetting that the dog sits regularly in front of the window) and probably information from some sensory channels (such as hearing or vision), and no more. So I think it's worth while to experiment on that subject and I don't like the a priori aggressive attitude towards it, but on the other hand on should not abandon one ounce of one's critical sense and scientific honesty towards the public. Therefore I am enclined to consider it to be a lack of rigid ethical principles for a scientist to publish vulgarisation literature in which the amount of "strange cases" is being used as an argument that "telepathy might exist" without any further warning. I suspect this could be written because it sells well as people would LIKE their pet to possess such capacities. Intellectual honesty compells us to say scientifically speaking nothing has been demonstrated. The fact I consider such experiments to be interesting could be used to accuse me of accepting the idea that telepathy might exist, which would put me into the category of people I just have been criticising. My answer is that it is fundamentally different to try to demonstrate an undefined concept such as "telepathy" on the one hand, and to investigate how it is possible that such unusual behaviour occurs, whatever the mechanism (maybe it's an unsuspected extremely refined use of a known sense, which in itself would be a very interesting finding). The core problem is the lack of definition of concepts (as usual...). OK. Those were some cogitations to change my mind while eating a sandwich for lunch. Can anybody find loopholes besides some salad dressing stains?) Prof.Dr. Frank O. Odberg University of Ghent Dpt. of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke Belgium tel: +32-(0)9-2521941 fax: 5304 From: IN%"Eva.Sondergaard@SH.DK" "Eva Sondergaard" 24-APR-1997 07:37:19.53 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Adfaerd'" CC: Subj: New member This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_[ID_NeROYEylep9vaNBCadP5eQ] Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello all. My name is Eva Soendergaard and I am working at the Danish Institute=20 of Agricultural Science in Foulum, Denmark. I have got a M.Sc. in=20 animal science but ethology is a new subject to me. I am preparing for=20 a project on the effects of handling and housing on young horses=20 learning ability and handling. The project will be my Ph.D. project=20 too. I am very interested in learning more about tests for learning=20 ability and handling in horses. Looking forward to getting more information Eva S=F8ndergaard Danish Institute of Animal Science Dep. of Breeding and Genetics P.O.Box 39 DK-8830 Tjele Ph. +45 89 99 13 41 Fax. +45 89 99 13 00 E-mail es@sh.dk --Boundary_[ID_NeROYEylep9vaNBCadP5eQ] Content-type: application/ms-tnef Content-transfer-encoding: base64 eJ8+IjgMAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQWAAwAOAAAAzQcEABgADgAyADYABABqAQEggAMADgAAAM0HBAAY AA4AMgA3AAQAawEBCYABACEAAABBNUE3MDhEMDNEQkNEMDExQUZCNjAwODA1RkNDNjM4MgA3BwEN gAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBIABAAsAAABOZXcgbWVtYmVyAMIDAQOQBgBQBQAAGQAAAAMAJgAAAAAAAwA2 AAAAAAADAAYQl+Qj7gMABxAMAgAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASEVMTE9BTExNWU5BTUVJU0VWQVNPRU5E RVJHQUFSREFORElBTVdPUktJTkdBVFRIRURBTklTSElOU1RJVFVURU9GQUdSSUNVTFRVUkFMU0NJ RU5DRUlORk9VTFVNLERFTk1BUgAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAAgEJEAEAAAB6AgAAdgIAAMMD AABMWkZ15vsk8P8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V07jIGAAbDAoMyA8YHEwKD9jMP fxCEfQqACM8J2QKABwqBDbELYG5nMTAzDw3wCwoS8gHQIEhlbCUWECAHQGwuCoVNeSggbmEHgCAE ACBFNHZhBgBvCfAEgWdhJwsRGiAcACBJGiBtIGp3BbBrC4BnGiAFQHTaaBtARABwBABoHNAAgCB0 aXR1dBtAb2ZDE3AJwGljdWwe4HLLB0AGAGMIkG5jG0EDoOZGCGAKQG0sHhAJ8ADALR1QLhzREcB2 G0Bnb/MFQBuwTS4gMCHQILEeMa8AwAMgBPAgVGIe8CASALpoFgFnGvAbYRuwbgfR8HN1YmoFkB3B GhAHgPsh0h0BcBaACrEdcgIQBcD7G7Am4G8l0wIgHdMNwSXh7wQgHzERwBwAbB1zHLEkoO51AJAd gShheQhgHYEkoHMR4QQgbGUKwAMAHYJivwMQHtAa8CoTKZUh0FQd8V8n5gPwGfAkMBtAbRrwULho LkQh0CfmJiBvJnX9IjByJPECMASQB5AfAByA/yCxK9cEYBaALFEIYB3BMVF/BCAngivfLOogoitk GmZMtzAgHWMngXccYiYhZxIA/x7AMkYLgCeBAMAewAIgCo9jC5EUIjE3IDllG5Nc+CdmOBwHOWUe Lx8yI2RfIDU8picAIdAfMUIJ0WRdKdZHCfASAB+QczllUAAuTy5Cb3ggM8I5PKZLLTg4GHAtsA8l 0DPAQXYvQCArNDUgIDg5IDlEwDEziCA0MTllRmF4RF1yMAp2RS0AwAMRB5BAsT1QLmRrOWUVoQBJ IAAAHgBwAAEAAAALAAAATmV3IG1lbWJlcgAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbxQrrupnNfAxryCEdCbRwCg JDb6GgAAQAA5ANAh5yWuULwBAwDxPwkEAAACAUcAAQAAAC0AAABjPURLO2E9IDtwPUZvdWx1bTts PVNITlQxLTk3MDQyNDEyNTA1NFotNTY4NAAAAAACAfk/AQAAAFAAAAAAAAAA3KdAyMBCEBq0uQgA Ky/hggEAAAAAAAAAL089Rk9VTFVNL09VPVNILkRLL0NOPVJFQ0lQSUVOVFMvQ049RVZBLlNPTkRF UkdBQVJEAB4A+D8BAAAAEAAAAEV2YSBTb25kZXJnYWFyZAACAfs/AQAAAFAAAAAAAAAA3KdAyMBC EBq0uQgAKy/hggEAAAAAAAAAL089Rk9VTFVNL09VPVNILkRLL0NOPVJFQ0lQSUVOVFMvQ049RVZB LlNPTkRFUkdBQVJEAB4A+j8BAAAAEAAAAEV2YSBTb25kZXJnYWFyZABAAAcwMGJd6a1QvAFAAAgw 4GMQJq5QvAEDAA00/T8AAAIBFDQBAAAAEAAAAFSUocApfxAbpYcIACsqJRceAD0AAQAAAAEAAAAA AAAACwApAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAIBfwABAAAAOwAAADxjPURLJWE9XyVwPUZvdWx1bSVsPVNITlQx LTk3MDQyNDEyNTA1NFotNTY4NEBzaG50MS5zaC5kaz4AAIhl --Boundary_[ID_NeROYEylep9vaNBCadP5eQ]-- From: IN%"bmduys@bio.vu.nl" 24-APR-1997 07:48:34.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Apogonidae I am a biology student of the Free University Amsterdam and I am looking for information about the perch Pterapogon kauderni or other members of Apogonidae. I am doing research on the behavior of this animal. This research is part of my education (animal behavior course). I can't give you more details about the research because we just started it in the Zoo of Amsterdam. I thank you in advance. Bianca Duijs From: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" 24-APR-1997 08:58:54.96 To: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Re: me and god -and telepathic dogs Dear All, With a correlational statistic at the 5% level of probability, one will get a significant relationship between two variables (x=time of human departure for home and y=anticipation-like behavior of dog) one out of 20 times due to chance alone. Additionally, two individuals that are in some manner socially bonded should be expected to show some continuing synchrony of their behavior during short periods of separation. Two animals (human or otherwise) that live together a significant portion of each week; have coordinated times to eat, sleep, and exercise; are both witnesses to family ups-and-downs, mood shifts; and are subjected to the same allergens, viruses, etc. It would be expected that they show more than random degrees of synchronization of behavioral patterns when not together during the daylight period for a few hours. Also, the factors that cause a human to depart for home early on some days could well be the same factors that disrupt a dog's circadian pattern. Weather (possibly barometric changes), onset of a cold due to a virus, too much pollen, family difficulties, a beautiful day after several dreary days are all factors that could cause a human to consider departing early for home - and it would seem reasonable that a closely bonded dog's behavior could be similarly affected by these same variables. Telepathy (as already pointed out by Jeff, Frank, etc.) is far short of any foundation. Therefore, while it may be a valid topic of discussion within science, I see no reason to formally include it in text-books or other formal educational activities that are not research in nature. Ray Stricklin Department of Animal and Avian Sciences University of Maryland From: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" 24-APR-1997 14:05:48.13 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"cbrandau@knox.mindspring.com" "Claire Brandau" Subj: RE: interesting situation Claire Brandau wrote: > Anyway, what really interests me is their differing backgrounds, and how > that may affect their initial interactions. Aslan, the male, was > (unfortunately) raised as a pet from birth. He is essentially a big > housecat. The staff at the zoo will treat him as a wild animal from this > point on. The females came from a facility in South Africa. Although they > were raised in captivity they were kept in huge holding pens where human > contact was kept minimal. For all intents and purposes their behavior is > that of wild-caught animals. ... > I'm also asking for opinions, at the risk of sounding anthropomorphic. If a > wild animal is raised as a pet for its entire upbringing, is it ethical to > deny it the human contact it has grown accustomed to? Is it ethical to > continue to encourage the behavior with continued human contact? I ask this > as we have experienced both extremes at KZG. What is the duration of the socialisation period in lions? (There has to be a socialisation period!) In dogs and cats, you have a desocialisation period at puberty, there may be the same thing in lions. Then lions are one of the only felines to be social animals. But to be social, they need to be raised in groups. What will happen to a lion raised with people without other lions? Will he identify other lions as ... lions? I have three related questions: 1. How will all these lions from different socialisation backgrounds behave together? 2. Different backgrounds create different rituals. Aslan, the "domesticated" lion will loose all rituals of communication with people; normally that may cause anxiety or depression. I'm curious of what ethological observations you are going to be able to do with him. 3. There must be some mutual (face?) rubbing (allomarking) between lions of the same group. This mutual rubbing is producing social/gregarious pheromones (in cats, as showed by dr Pageat in Brussels and Birmingham meetings). I would like to know if lions do that, and if your group of lions will do it, in which time, and if this behaviour is reducing their anxiety level. About your "ethical" question, I think losing all human contact will be disturbing (than unethical). It's like putting Aslan in a high-security low-contact jail (this is anthropomorphism, I know, but it is just for the sake of the metaphor). Dr Joel Dehasse (dvm) - Brussels - jdehasse@arcadis.be http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/ From: IN%"cbrandau@knox.mindspring.com" "Claire Brandau" 24-APR-1997 14:26:36.96 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: interesting situation At 01:31 PM 4/24/97 +0200, you wrote: >What is the duration of the socialisation period in lions? (There has to >be a socialisation period!) No clue. I've not worked with lions myself, or any large felids. I understand with domestic cats it is something like 7 weeks. Am I correct? Anyone? >Then lions are one of the only felines to be social animals. But to be >social, they need to be raised in groups. What will happen to a lion >raised with people without other lions? Will he identify other lions as >... lions? I'm not sure, but I have a cheetah story to relate to that. We had a male cheetah that was raised by humans as a pet. He never discovered he was a cheetah, and never recognized other cheetahs. He was a housecat (in behavior) until the day he died. We had another cheetah raised under the same circumstances whose sole purpose in life was to attack a human being (much more "normal," I wonder?). >I have three related questions: >1. How will all these lions from different socialisation backgrounds >behave together? >2. Different backgrounds create different rituals. Aslan, the >"domesticated" lion will loose all rituals of communication with people; >normally that may cause anxiety or depression. I'm curious of what >ethological observations you are going to be able to do with him. The zoo has given me permission to observe as often and as long as I would like. Unfortunately I'm a babe in the woods where lions are concerned. I'm taking suggestions.... >3. There must be some mutual (face?) rubbing (allomarking) between lions >of the same group. This mutual rubbing is producing social/gregarious >pheromones (in cats, as showed by dr Pageat in Brussels and Birmingham >meetings). I would like to know if lions do that, and if your group of >lions will do it, in which time, and if this behaviour is reducing their >anxiety level. Right now the "girls" are still in quarantine...would you like me to run an introduction observation for you? I'd be happy to. >About your "ethical" question, I think losing all human contact will be >disturbing (than unethical). It's like putting Aslan in a high-security >low-contact jail (this is anthropomorphism, I know, but it is just for >the sake of the metaphor). I've leaned towards that theory as well. After seeing Skeeter (the cheetah who was a kitty) and his reactions at being cut off from contact, I began to feel a little sorry for him. It was pathetic. Feel free to e-mail me privately if you wish. I check my mail often. Claire M. Brandau University of Tennessee, Knoxville Lowly undergrad in search of a masters program From: IN%"coyote@goldrush.com" "connie" 24-APR-1997 23:46:55.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: MOUNTAIN LION ATTACKS IN CALIFORNIA GREETINGS: I AM DOING RESEARCH ON LION ATTACKS IN CALIFORNIA. I AM INVESTIGATING CAUSES AND PROVOCATION. HABITAT ISLANDS, STRESS, HABITAT FRAGMENTATION, DISEASE, PREY SIGNALS AND BEHAVIOR ETC. IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE DOING SIMILAR RESEARCH? THANKS. From: IN%"N.A.GEVERINK@id.dlo.nl" 25-APR-1997 01:32:29.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: ISAE 97 Registration Form - Czech Crowns > From: IN%"applied-ethology-error@skyway.usask.ca" 28-FEB-1997 15:12 > To: IN%"applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" > CC: > Subj: ISAE 97 Registration Form - Czech Crowns > > > /------------------------------------------------\ > | |* > | II SSSS AAAA EEEE 9999 7777 |* > | II S S A A E 9 9 7 |* > | II S A A E 9 9 7 |* > | II SSSS AAAA EEE 9999 7 |* > | II S A A E 9 7 |* > | II S S A A E 9 7 |* > | II SSSS A A EEEE 9999 7 |* > | |* > \------------------------------------------------/* > ************************************************* > > > > > ///// 31th International Congress of the ISAE ///// > //////////// Prague, 13-16 August 1997 ///////////// > > > > /----------------------------------------\ > > R E G I S T R A T I O N F O R M > (for payment in Czech Crowns) > > \----------------------------------------/ > > Note: if you wish to pay in US dollars (which is more > expensive), please use the other Registration Form > > Please read the 'Second Announcement' before completing > this form > > > HOW TO REPLY > ============ > > OPTION 1 - BY E-MAIL > Please tick the appropriate options in brackets like > this > [x] > and fill in the number on the lines underscored by > quotation marks like this > CZK 3000 > """""""" > and send the completed form included in the body of > your message back by e-mail, using the Reply function, > to spinka@novell.vuzv.cz. Do NOT send the form as an > attached or enclosed file. > Hint: Switch to typeover mode before filling in the > form > > > OPTION 2 - BY MAIL OR FAX > Print this form, fill in the hardcopy and send to > ISAE97 > c/o Marek Spinka > Research Institute of Animal Production > CZ-104 00 Prague - Uhrineves > Czech Republic > fax +420 2 6771 0779. > (+42 2 6771 0779 before March 1, 1997) > > > > > DELEGATE > ======== > > [X] Member [ ] Non-member [ ] Full-time student > (Students: please send a written confirmation of > your student status from your host institution) > > Title: Drs. > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > First name: Nicoline > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > Surname: Geverink > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > Gender: Male [ ] Female [X] > > Vegetarian meals: Yes [ ] No [X] > > Mailing address: ID-DLO, P.O. Box 65 > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > 8200 AB Lelystad, The Netherlands > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > E-mail address: n.a.geverink@id.dlo.nl > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > Tel: +31 320 238194 > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > Fax: +31 320 238050 > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > > ACCOMPANYING PERSON(S) > ====================== > > Name(s): Age Veg. meals > (if under 16) Yes/No > > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""" """""""" > > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""" """""""" > > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""" """""""" > > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""" """""""" > > > > A) REGISTRATION FEES > ----------------- > > Before After No. > April 30 April 30 persons Sum > > Member: CZK 3000 CZK 3500 x 1 = CZK 3000 > """""" """""" > Non-member: CZK 3500 CZK 4000 x = CZK > """""" """""" > Student: CZK 1800 CZK 2300 x = CZK > """""" """""" > Accompanying person(s) > (> 16 years): CZK 500 CZK 700 x = CZK > """""" """""" > Second paper by the same author or poster presented in > absentia: > CZK 500 x = CZK > """""" """""" > > ITEM A) TOTAL CZK 3000 > """""" > > > > B) AIRPORT -> CONGRESS SITE BUS > ---------------------------- > Bus from Airport to Czech Agricultural University > on Tuesday August 12 at hour > [ ] 12:00 [ ] 13:00 [ ] 14:00 [ ] 15:00 [ ] 16:00 > [ ] 17:00 [ ] 18:00 [ ] 19:00 [ ] 20:00 [ ] 21:00 > [ ] 22:00 > If there is not enough interest for the bus at your > preferred hour, > do you wish to take the bus leaving an hour later? > Yes [ ] No [ ] > No. > person Sum > > CZK 100 x = CZK > """""" """""" > > ITEM B) TOTAL CZK > """""" > > > > C) ACCOMMODATION > ------------- > OPTION 1 > Single rooms. Two rooms share a shower and a WC. Each > room has a refrigerator. Includes breakfast. > No. > persons Sum > > Aug 12 CZK 650 x 1 = CZK 650 > """""" """"""" > > Aug 13 CZK 650 x 1 = CZK 650 > """""" """"""" > > Aug 14 CZK 650 x 1 = CZK 650 > """""" """"""" > > Aug 15 CZK 650 x 1 = CZK 650 > """""" """"""" > > Aug 16 CZK 650 x 1 = CZK 650 > """""" """"""" > > Aug 17 CZK 650 x 1 = CZK 650 > """""" """"""" > > > OPTION 2 > Double rooms. Two rooms share a shower, WC and > refrigerator. Price is per person and night. > Includes breakfast. > If you wish to share the room with another person > attending the congress, please write his/her name: > > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > No. > persons Sum > > Aug 12 CZK 520 x = CZK > """""" """"""" > > Aug 13 CZK 520 x = CZK > """""" """"""" > > Aug 14 CZK 520 x = CZK > """""" """"""" > > Aug 15 CZK 520 x = CZK > """""" """"""" > > Aug 16 CZK 520 x = CZK > """""" """"""" > > Aug 17 CZK 520 x = CZK > """""" """"""" > > > > > ITEM C) TOTAL CZK > """""""" > > > > D) MEALS > ----- > > No. > persons > > Dinner Aug 12 CZK 170 x 1 = CZK 170 > """""" """"""" > > Lunch Aug 13 CZK 170 x 1 = CZK 170 > """""" """"""" > > Dinner Aug 13 CZK 170 x 1 = CZK 170 > """""" """"""" > > Lunch Aug 15 CZK 170 x 1 = CZK 170 > """""" """"""" > > Lunch Aug 16 CZK 170 x 1 = CZK 170 > """""" """"""" > > ITEM D) TOTAL CZK 850 > """"""" > > > > E) SOCIAL EVENTS > ------------- > > Aug 14 OPTION 1 > Excursion to Dvur Kralove Safari Zoo and Kuks Baroque > Castle. > Aug 14 11:00-22:00. Includes packed lunch and dinner > No. persons > CZK 1100 x 1 = CZK 1100 > """""" """"""" > > Aug 14 OPTION 2 > Excursion to Kutna Hora medieval town and Zehusice > "white coloured" red deer park. Aug 14 11:00-22:00. > Includes packed lunch and barbecue. > No. persons > CZK 1200 x = CZK > """""" """"""" > > Aug 14 OPTION 3 > A visit to a typical agricultural cooperative enterprise > and a private dairy farm. Includes lunch in a country > restaurant and barbecue in Zehusice Deer Park together > with Option 2. > No. persons > CZK 1100 x = CZK > """""" """"""" > > Congress banquet in and medieval cellar at the Prague > Castle. Includes folk band & dancing. Aug 15 19:00-24:00. > No. persons > CZK 900 x 1 = CZK 900 > """""" """"""" > Aug 16 OPTION 1 > Visit to the Prague Zoo. Aug 16 16:00-18:00. > No. persons > CZK 180 x 1 = CZK 180 > """""" """"""" > > Aug 16 OPTION 2 > A coach & walk tour through historical Prague. Aug 16 > 16:00-18:00. > No. persons > CZK 350 x = CZK > """""" """"""" > > Evening boat cruise on the Vltava river. Includes > dinner. Aug 16 20:00-22:00. > No. persons > CZK 540 x 1 = CZK 540 > """""" """"""" > > Sunday trip to Cesky Krumlov historical town & South > Bohemia Nature Reserve. Aug 17 7:30-22:00. > Includes lunch and dinner. > > No. persons > CZK 1100 x 1 = CZK 1100 > """""" """"""" > > ITEM E) TOTAL CZK > """"""" > > > GRAND TOTAL ITEMS A) to E) CZK 11.570,- > ========================== """""""""" > Please double check your totals and keep a photocopy > for your records. > > > > > PAYMENT > ======= > > [X] I enclose a Checque, EuroCheque or Bankers Draft in > Czech Crowns payable to "VYZKUMNY USTAV ZIVOCISNE VYROBY" > > (Note: "Vyzkumny ustav zivocisne vyroby" means > Research Institute of Animal Production in Czech) > > > > Please charge my [ ] Visa [ ] Eurocard [ ] JCB > [ ] Mastercard [ ] Dinners Club > [ ] American Express > Card Number > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > Expiry Date > """"""""""""" > Name of Card Holder > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > For payment with credit card additional 4.5% of your > Grand Total will be charged. > > If paying by an American Express Card, please write your > billing address: > > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > Marek Spinka > Group of Ethology > Research Institute of Animal Production > CZ - 104 00 Prague - Uhrineves > Czechia > > phone: +420 2 67 71 07 13 > fax: +420 2 67 71 07 79 > > !!!!! Starting with March 1, 1997, the international phone & fax > !!!!! prefix for the Czech Republic changed from +42 to > !!!!! + 420 !!!!!!!!! > > > ************************************************** > * Please note that I have a new e-mail address * > * * > * SPINKA@NOVELL.VUZV.CZ * > ************************************************** > From: IN%"VANDENBOS@rullf2.LeidenUniv.nl" "Ruud van den Bos" 25-APR-1997 03:58:34.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Wageningen conference Perspectives on Animal Consciousness Wageningen International Conference Centre Wageningen, the Netherlands 3rd-4th July 1997 ORGANIZERS:dr. Ruud van den Bos (RUL) dr. Soemini Kasanmoentalib (VU) drs. ir. Susanne Lijmbach (LUW) drs. Marcel Dol (RUL) IN COOPERATION WITH:KNAW Onderzoekschool Ethiek (Netherlands School for Research in Practical Philosophy); SPONSORED BY:NWO Stichting voor Filosofie en Theologie; Anti-Vivisectie Stichting (AVS); Programme: 3rd July Morning Opening address: G. Den Hartogh (UvA; director of the Netherlands School for Research in Practical Philosophy) Animal Consciousness & Philosophy (chair: D. Kornet, University of Leiden, Leiden, the Netherlands) C. Allen (College Station, TX, USA); S. Lijmbach (Wageningen); W. van der Steen (Amsterdam); J. Vorstenbosch (Utrecht) Afternoon Animal Consciousness & Ethics (chair: Tj. de Cock Buning, University of Leiden, Leiden, the Netherlands) D. Macer (Tsukuba City, Japan); H. Verhoog (Leiden); E. Rivas (Nijmegen); P. Cohn (Abington, PA, USA) Evening Special Programme: P. Carruthers (Sheffield, UK); R. Heeger (Utrecht); M. Bracke (Wageningen) 4th July Morning Animal Consciousness & Science (chair: B. Spruijt, University of Utrecht, Utrecht, the Netherlands) M. Bekoff (Boulder, CO, USA); B. Bermond (Amsterdam); R. van den Bos (Leiden); J. Fentress (Halifax, NS, Canada) Afternoon Parallel Workshops: Workshop 1:Biological Foundation of Ethics (Tj. De Cock Buning, University of Leiden, Leiden, the Netherlands) Workshop 2:Research Methods in Animal Welfare (F. de Jonge, Wageningen Agricultural University, Wageningen, the Netherlands) Workshop 3:Animal Welfare, Politics & Legislation (J. Staman, Ministry of Agriculture, The Hague, the Netherlands) Special Closing Lecture:J. van Hooff (Utrecht) ________________________________________________________________ Conference fee: f200,-- (Dutch guilders) (includes: coffee & tea during breaks; lunches; evening drinks on 3rd July; abstracts) Payable through account. nr.:ABN: 53.95.09.426 to LUW, sector L&S, project Animal Ethics (nr.059918) Conference site: WICC-IAC Lawickse Allee 11 6701 AN Wageningen tel:0317 - 490133 fax:0317 - 426243 (Map will be sent after we have received your registration form) People who wish to stay in Wageningen overnight should contact: VVV (Tourist information) Wageningen: tel: 0317 - 410777 fax: 0317 - 423186 Name:_____________________________________________ Address:_____________________________________________ _____________________________________________ _____________________________________________ _____________________________________________ Tel: _____________________________________________ Fax:_____________________________________________ E-mail:_____________________________________________ For those who wish to attend a workshop please indicate your choice below (first, second): Workshop 1 (Tj. de Cock Buning): _______ Workshop 2 (F. de Jonge): _______ Workshop 3 (J. Staman):_______ This form should be sent to (by e-mail or 'snail' mail): Organisation Conference 'Perspectives on Animal Consciousness' Ruud van den Bos PhD Institute of Evolutionary and Ecological Sciences Section Theoretical Biology University of Leiden P.O. Box 9516 2300 RA Leiden the Netherlands tel:071 - 527 4921 fax:071 - 527 4900 e-mail: VANDENBOS@rullf2.medfac.leidenuniv.nl From: IN%"schilder@neuretp.biol.ruu.nl" 25-APR-1997 05:49:36.43 To: IN%"rdecter@msn.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: humour in dogs dear mr Dexter.=20 I read your website on humour in dogs with interest and I provided my boss,= =20 prof. van Hooff with a copy. He asked me to react to your question regardin= g=20 whether dogs couild have a sense of humour.=20 First, Dogs do have a play-face: a relaxed open mouth face, in which the te= eth=20 are covered, Moreover, the ears are pricked upwards, but with the openings= =20 sidewards. Secondly, dogs perform the play-bow. Both signs signal that what= is=20 to follow is not serious. In that sense dogs are humorous. On the other han= d, I=20 do not agree with your suggestion to regard humour and play as synonymous,= =20 because then the specific meaning of the word humour gets lost. I would say= that=20 dogs play, but that the question whether or not they possess a sense of hum= our=20 cannot be resolved so easily. The same goes even the case in apes! prof. Van Hooff and I one did an experiment with our chimpanzees at Arnhem = Zoo:=20 I had hidden myself for the chimps and then I put up a chimp mask. Subseque= ntly=20 I showed only my masked head and shoulders to the chimps, which lead to an= =20 enormeous outbreak of exitement. Several stones and branches were thrown in= my=20 direction. After a few minutes, I stood up, showed my full length and put o= ff=20 the mask. The chimps then saw me, a familiar face. This brougth about laug= hing=20 in the oldest of the chimps, Mama, but not in other chimps. Did she underst= ood=20 that she had been fooled by my mask? Did she appreciate that joke? Did th= e=20 other chimps not understand the situation or did they not like the joke? Normally, chimps show laughing when playing, when the situation is not "ser= ious" The fact that Mama had laughed therefore seems to suggest that she had=20 understood that the situation she had witnessed was not serious. In this c= ase =20 the idea that chimps may have a sense of humour, comparable to ours, could = be a=20 reasonable hypothesis. =20 This experiment however, seems to be a step further that looking at a playi= ng=20 dog. I would not exclude that dogs experience play as funny, but I cannot prove = it.=20 Certainky, they seem to get positive feelings out of play, otherwise, they = would=20 not show appetitive behaviour. Further, I would like to remaind you that play also has a serious component= : in=20 monkeys as well as in dogs play is also being used as a risk-less method of= =20 testing strength and of changing the dominance-relationship. Therefore,=20 sometimes one may observe that dogs, that did not play beforehand, start=20 playing. This may be accompanied by identical postures (i.e. a sign of an=20 uncertain dominance relationship). Such play also may soon escalate into re= al=20 fighting. Playfighting is nothing else that a very calm fight. The play-face of the dog is not identical to the dog's smiling: smiling is= a=20 mix of aggressive and submissive/fearful behaviours. It occurs mostly after= the=20 dog has not seen his master (or another human being) for some time. Sometim= es=20 the dog is frighthened by another subject or event, and then smiles at the = boss. Often, smiles can be induced by frighthening the dog and subsequently, let= de=20 owner approach the dog. The communication by the dog represents its mixed=20 motivational state: fear, aggression plus a tendency to apprach and affilia= te. Dogs only very rarely smile to one another; almost all smiles are directed= =20 towards humans. Finally, I would like to draw your attention to an article on the use of th= e=20 play bow by Marc Bekoff (1995) in Behaviour:132:419-429 title: Play signal= s as=20 punctuation: the structure of social play in canids. Yours sincerely,=20 dr Matthijs Schilder Ethology and socio-ecology, Utrecht University PO BOX 80.085 3508 TB UTRECHT THE HETHERLANDS From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 26-APR-1997 21:01:57.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Hello! Reply to message from agnethe-iren.sandem@nlhstud.nlh.no of Thu, 24 Apr > >I am a MSc student in ethology at the Agricultural University of Norway. As >a part of my study I have just started a project in wich I want to survey >the meaning of having a cat as a companion in Norway with a questionnaire. > Respecting this project I am interested in ideas and thoughts of >subjects wich is important in human-cat interactions. > > agnethe-iren.sandem@student.nlh.no > > > Apropos cat/human companionship: I received a get-well card from a friend today that gave me a solid chuckle. And since effective humor must have a bit of truth in it, I offer this for your consideration: FRONT OF CARD: GRAPHIC: Seated cat staring casually at the viewer. TEXT: Cats know exactly how we feel. INSIDE OF CARD: TEXT: They don't give a damn, but they know. Okey, but I liked it. ~~~ -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) Animal Behavior Clinic Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 216/826-0013 Fax: 234-3407 From: IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk" 28-APR-1997 08:02:16.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Violet Beattie's email address? Does anyone know Violet Beattie's email address. Thanks Dale Dale Arey Animal and Feed Technology SAC Craibstone Estate Bucksburn Aberdeen, AB21 9YA UK AB21 9YA Tel: 01224 711058 From: IN%"d8olsen@sisko.sbcc.cc.ca.us" 28-APR-1997 20:19:03.03 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: intro My name is Nedda Olsen. I am a 27 year old student in California. I am very interested in animal behavior and am excited to share any of my thoughts and to ask questions with people who are interested in the same. From: IN%"sgurcan@veterinary.ankara.edu.tr" "Safa Gurcan" 29-APR-1997 03:39:51.53 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Animal breeding discussion group Hi, I am a statistician ad working in a Biometry department and interesting animal breeding. I am desperately seeking animal breeding discussion group address. Where can i find these discussion group. Thanx for advices. Safa Gurcan gurcan@veterinary.ankara.edu.tr ------ Safa GURCaN gurcan@veterinary.ankara.edu.tr I love Ankara-Istanbul-Antalya ------ From: IN%"gfb1@email.psu.edu" "G. F. Barbato" 29-APR-1997 11:02:46.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: animal breeders this msg was returned w/ an 'address unknown' error... so i'm posting to the group regards... g >At 12:30 PM 4/29/97 +0300, you wrote: >>Hi, >>I am a statistician ad working in a Biometry department and interesting >>animal breeding. I am desperately seeking animal breeding discussion group >>address. >>Where can i find these discussion group. >> >>Thanx for advices. >> >>Safa Gurcan >>gurcan@veterinary.ankara.edu.tr > >right here.... > >http://chuck.agsci.colostate.edu/intro.html > >see you on the web >regards, >guy > G. F. Barbato Phone: (814)-865-4481 Graduate Program in Genetics FAX: (814)-865-5691 Dept. Poultry Science Lab: (814)-865-3189 Penn State University Email: gfb1@psu.edu University Park, PA 16802 http://ps235.cas.psu.edu/ From: IN%"SMILLMAN@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Suzanne Millman" 29-APR-1997 11:48:00.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: animal breeding group Hi there. While I can't imagine why someone would prefer animal breeding to animal behaviour (!!) I think I can help you find what you are looking for. Luckily I share my office with an animal breeder and she recommends the following group... Animal Genetics Discussion Group (ADGD) The address is... breeders@chuck.AgSci.ColoState.EDU Cheers, Suzanne Millman PhD Student Dept. of Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, Ont. Canada Date sent: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:30:03 +0300 From: Safa Gurcan Subject: Animal breeding discussion group To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hi, I am a statistician ad working in a Biometry department and interesting animal breeding. I am desperately seeking animal breeding discussion group address. Where can i find these discussion group. Thanx for advices. Safa Gurcan gurcan@veterinary.ankara.edu.tr ------ Safa GURCaN gurcan@veterinary.ankara.edu.tr I love Ankara-Istanbul-Antalya ------ From: IN%"Per.Jensen@hmh.slu.se" "Per Jensen" 30-APR-1997 07:51:32.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Ed Price's email Is there anyone around who has a working email address to Ed Price? I would be grateful if you would help me with this. Cheers, Per Jensen *********************************************************** PER JENSEN, Professor of Ethology Swedish University of Agricultural Scinces Department of Animal Environment and Health Section of Ethology POB 234, SE-532 23 SKARA, Sweden Tel +46 511 67219 Fax +46 511 67204 E-mail Per.Jensen@hmh.slu.se ***********************************************************