From: IN%"S.Gragert@t-online.de" 15-APR-1999 11:50:14.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: considerate driving and cost of time Dear all, would you be so kind as to check the following train of thought? In my work on pig transport I analysed six transports. I divided the way (60km) into about 50 subparts (from 300m to 3.2 km, leading from one easy to recognize point to the next) to find special bends or so easier. Between, say, point 13 and 14 a situation occurred, in which the pigs lost postural stability in transport no 1 and 5, in transports 2,3,4 and 6 nothing happened. Because of the different lenght of the subparts I always took the times in seconds needed to cover the distance between two points from one subpart and standardized it by taking the shortest time as 100 %. When e.g. the time needed between point 13 and 14 was 50 seconds in transport no 1 (and t1 was the fastest in this subpart) and 52 seconds in transports no 2, these values became 100% for t1 and 104% for t2. I took all the percent values from the different subparts and grouped those, that included cases in which loss of balance happened (A, n=52) and those in which nothing happened (B, n=116). (Parts of journey, in which stops at traffic lights and such occurred, were excluded.) Between A and B there was no difference! On the contrary, I got a goodness of fit value of 0.97 for the likeness. Can I conclude that considerate driving with respect to pig postural stability does not cost time? If not, please tell me, where is the worm in this apple? Thank you. Yours sincerely Stephanie Gragert ---------------------- Stephanie Gragert Kochstr. 59 04275 Leipzig Germany Tel/Fax 0049 341 3304368 S.Gragert@t-online.de From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 16-APR-1999 21:41:50.94 To: IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve" CC: Subj: Evening Seminars Seminars for a Midsummer's Eve "Darwinian Feelings and Values" Cape Cod Institute, July 19-23, 1999 Register: 708-430-2307 The regular classes offer 15 hours of continuing education credit for nearly any mental health practitioner and are over at 12:15 PM each day. = We will reconvene at 12:30 PM each afternoon for small group discussions = of the morning's talk. There will be special topic seminars Tues, Weds, & Thurs Evenings from 7 PM-10PM that provide more casual and wider ranging thought about evolutio= n and our personal quirks and aspirations. Wine and snacks will be availab= le at these sessions to be held at the speakers' lodging. Tues: Suzie Gardner and John Fentress. "Twins -- Differences and Identities" Suzie is an identical twin yet gives NO evidence of feeling determined, confined, or directed by her genes. Neither do any of the twins interviewed by Nancy Segal and discussed in her new book, "Entwined Lives= ." Yet, "genes" must be considered in our explanation for similarities in t= he developmental outcomes that we see for twins and perhaps for ourselves as= well. Suzie -- also the wife of Russell Gardner, Jr., MD -- has been coach, advocate, and inspiration for all of us and will make her presentation in= the company of John Fentress, Ph.D. John is past Chair of the Department= of Psychology and Neuroscience at Dalhousie University and will be freshl= y back from a sabbatical at the University of Oregon and a conference in Israel. John is a neurodevelopmentalist and will help all of us spin an explanatory net that cushions our hopes, experiences and data. Weds: John Fentress, Ph.D. and Jim Brody, Ph.D., "Selectionism: Who Actually Does the Picking?" "Selectionism" usually describes natural selection: traits vary, they compete, and are amplified or eliminated across generations. This view contrasts with that of blank slates and layers of chalk building our memories, talents, and our sense of Self. However, "nonshared environment" (NSE) has complicated our views of human= development and of selectionism. NSE consists roughly of events that are= available to both members of a pair of siblings but are NOT shared by the= m. For example, one of them has a younger brother, the other has an older brother. NSE gets more complex because parents are a part of NSE; they appear to treat each child in a distinctive manner that is elicited by th= e child. The child may draw behavior from his parent to meet his own needs= regardless of parental intent. We all accumulate things in a manner unique to us; twins research suggest= that our NSE is perhaps guided more by genetic factors than we previously= appreciated and are perhaps less of an outcome of parental lectures. If so, the ramifications are immense -- that therapy is less of a "teaching"= enterprise and more one of helping the client to discover new choices tha= t are consistent with his or her other characteristics. Selective perception, memory formation, and personal beliefs may intimately wed to NSE; life may be more of a cafeteria than an instructor and environment more of a smorgasbord than a task mistress. Thurs: John Price, M.D., and Jim Brody, Ph.D. "Thoughts about Hierarchy and Attachment" John Price is a continuing pioneer in considering hierarchic changes as a= n outcome of strategies for dominance and subordination, strategies that result in our feelings of elation and despondency. His models are coherent, self-contained, and generally persuasive. Hierarchy appears to prevent fights and encourages various forms of cooperation in different species. There is another aspect to hierarchy, however, that of information flow and decisions. A singleton adult or members of a couple are comparatively unrestrained in their freedom of movement and decisions they make. A threesome is more limited and a quartet can be mired in cement unless a hierarchy emerges. = There appears to be a delicate series of negotiations between recruiting allies in order to extend your personal range of talents and ensuring expedient decisions that pay off socially and economically. An array of clinical phenomena are consistent with this description of a qualitative shift in the speed and variability of decisions in relation to the size o= f a group of people and the dominance relations between them. Implications= for anxiety, depression, panic, and the personality disorders will be sketched. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values" John Price MD, Russ Gardner MD, John Fentress PhD, James Brody PhD 20th CAPE COD! Institute 7/19-23/1999 The course is a symbiosis of Price, Gardner, Fentress and memes assembled= from Darwin, Kauffman, Barkley, & Plomin, stirred but not shaken. 15 CME/CEU $455/$300 grad students & interns 610-948-5344 (info) 718-430-2307 (regist) www.cape.org/1999/price.html Paul MacLean Festschrift BOSTON! 7/16-17/99 23 speakers (approx) including Karl Pribram contact Russ Gardner, rgj999@yahoo.com for details From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 16-APR-1999 21:43:21.73 To: IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve" CC: IN%"geoffrey.miller@ucl.ac.uk" "Geoffrey Miller" Subj: Barkow and Miller in NYC Colleagues: The following notes are also posted at http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary. I hope that you find them helpful. Jim Brody =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Barkow and Miller in New York City, 4/14/99 James Brody, Ph.D. 4/16/99 The following is continuation of the series -- "Evolutionary Perspectives= on Human Reproductive Behavior" -- at the Hunter School of Social Work on= East 79th in Manhattan. The talks are summarized here and my remarks follow in a posting tomorrow. I'm grateful to Walter and Dori LeCroy, M.D., the CUNY Faculty Development Program, and the CUNY Ph.D. Programs i= n Psychology, Biology, and Anthropology both for their contributions that made the series possible and for making it open to the public at no charg= e. Jerome Barkow Ph.D.,* Professor of Anthropology, Dalhousie University. "Do Extraterrestrials Have Sex (and Intelligence)?" Barkow --- a science fiction fan -- spoke to an audience of 25-40 about h= is interests in alternative evolutionary routes to intelligence, operational= ly defined as "the capacity to get in touch with us." Sagan, Aczel, and Conway Morris --- among many others --- argue that life WILL exist elsewhere in the universe and will be a product of convergent evolution. = Gould is perhaps wrong one more time, that the "tape" has been played several times, can be played again, and will have similar outcomes. = Barkow mentioned wings (bats and birds) and eyes (mammals and octopi) as models of similar structures that resulted independently of each other; h= e praised "Crucible of Creation: The Burgess Shale and the Rise of Animals"= by Simon Conway Morris, 1998. Environments will shape the kinds of intelligence as it apparently did wi= th our own set of adaptations; thus an alien life form (ALF) will be intelligent but we don't know the details and whether that intelligence will be ethnocentric or xenophobic. However, we can be more sure that se= x is likely. He argued that (1) a relatively short generational life span is needed fo= r evolutionary change to have sufficient time to craft intelligence able to= communicate through great distances and (2) sexual selection is a magnifi= er --- through reciprocal positive feedback loops --- for small changes that= lead to intelligent behavior. Autopredation (killing one another) and co-predation (between 2 competing species) would have similar outcomes as= sexual selection. However, the absence of predation -- would make both xenophobia and ethnocentrism less likely. Such outcomes --- whether of autopredation, co-predation, or sexual selection --- appear to be independent of niche characteristics. Two sexes seems to be the average prediction, whether by Williams '75 or = in the recent collection on "Why Sex" published in "Science." The combinati= on of sex and sexual selection serve as a multiplier for intelligence to develop. Earthlings --- per Buss, '89 --- first prefer kindness and the= n like intelligence, perhaps as a route to parental investment in food, tools, and other resources. Social competition is presumed to be a factor in "Machiavellian intelligence" (Humphrey '76) as would be deceit and moralistic aggression= --- "I did for you and you didn't do for me, I'm punishing you." Bottom line: "We" are out there someplace and the issue is one of how similar will we be and when will we interact? Barkow noted that Search f= or Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) is expanding its technology to inclu= de scanning for laser messages, that radio waves might be so inefficient as = to be a transient phase of communication. Geoffrey Miller, Ph.D., University College, London. "Human Language and Intelligence as Sexually Selected Fitness Indicators"= Traditional evolution pictured our minds as specialized for tool making, hunting and rape. There was no female choice and no influence of female preferences on male characteristics. However, the choice of sexual partners is not random and fitness, rather than parental investment potential, is the guiding beacon for not only ladies' choices in mate selection but also in the construction of our culture and our moral trees. According to Miller's script, mutual mate choices led to art, music, language, and values. ADAPTATIONS --- are: 1) Easy and fun to learn 2) Hard for artificial intelligence programs to duplicate 3) Culturally universal 4) Historically universal 5) Occur in every normal individual ANY trait can be a factor in sexual selection. We recognize them by: 1) Excessive complexity (design features are inconsistent with a spandrel= ) 2) High relative cost 3) Questionable survival functions 4) Reliable indications of health and fitness 5) Whether males or females value the trait 6) Is it a factor in courtship? 7) Is it broadcast more by males than by females? 8) Does it bloom after puberty? Our minds and language meet these criteria and should be considered as probable outcomes of sexual selection. Examples of sexual dimorphism: 1) Males kill more than females and peak in their early 20s. 2) Male jazz production peaks at age 30 3) Male rock music production peaks at age 30 4) Male painters ditto (Females peak at the same age but have about 1/10th the volume of males) 5) Male authors peak at 40, females peak post-menopause. Richard Nisbett recently suggested to Miller that males "do more" than females; some 90% of the Guinness Record book contains male achievements,= as if there is some "adaptation for public display." DISPLAY: Fisher, 1915, Willliams '66, and Zahavi, '94 talk about the importance of= displays. A display is evidence that you are not sick, injured, or dead, cues that reflect liveliness and health are amplified. Sexual selection favors fitness displays. Fitness indicators MUST be costly or else they can be faked. COGNITION: Hard to develop it Expensive Easily disrupted by pathogens, depression, illness, and inbreeding. Health and fertility are merely the initial screen for mate choices. Words, for example, are another. Miller reported that about 1,000,000 words flow during the first 3 months of courtship. He endorsed the "Lens Model" wherein physical attractiveness (signal for health), intelligence (neurophysiological efficiency via vocabularly, information, and humor), status (provisioning via jobs, schooling), and personality (cooperation, kindness, adaptability) combine to give us an estimate of overall mate value. A PROBLEM for EP? Natural selection is thought (Barkow et al, Buss ) to produce adaptations= that are: 1) uniform across individual phenotypes 2) associated with genotypic uniformity 3) independent of niche conditions 4) inexpensive 5) modular However, sexual selection produces opposite traits that are: 1) Highly variable across individuals 2) More variable genotypically 3) Condition dependent 4) Of high cost 5) Overlap with other adaptations. EXAMPLES Vocabulary: 1) We have multiple words -- e.g., "blue" but we also have azure, teal, sapphire, aqua, cobalt 2) The average adult has 60K words; in contrast, primates get by with 5-2= 0 signals, birdw tihe about 1000, trained apes with about 200. 3) Humans learn 10-20 new words per day between 18 mos and 18 yrs and in one trial Zipf-Mandlebrot Law: most words aren't very useful; 60% of conversational= time is occupied by 100 words, 90% by 4000 words. A core of 850 words ha= ve been identified as useful for writing texts, 2000 words are common in pidgin. We have a 56K surplus of words! Using words a preliminary index of intelligence. A Gutmann series of words has been identified so that if you know the 15t= h word but not the 16th you will also know words 1-14 but not words 17-25. Our mental lexicon appears to be an adaptation, unique ot humans, evolved= (gossip, grooming, advertising, social tracking) and important in sexual selection. Intelligence: 1) Varies across a wide range 2) Vocabulary is strongly correlated with IQ 3) Intelligence is heritable --- 60% for vocab avg, .40 at age 11, .90 at= age 65 (Plomin) 4) Shared environment accounts for .20 at age 11, zero at age 60. 5) Valued for mate choice --- mating is assortative, not random.\ 6) Has a lower marginal cost for higher fitness individuals --- each new word is easier to acquire if you're smart. 7) Vocab is as a load of about .75 with "g" 8) Is sexually dimorphic --- females have a higher average vocab but male= s have greater variability. Male production vocab is higher than female; female receptive is higher than male. The suggestion is that more words imply higher vocab implies higher intelligence implies greater neurophysiological efficiency implies greate= r fitness. More about intelligence: "Gould was wrong" Our evolved architecture is not individually variable but intelligence is= . All test scores are positively inter correlated (rare in nature!) Indications that intelligence is involved in sexual selection: 1) It varies 2) It is sexually dimorphic 3) It is 80% heritable 4) It has a high cost in terms of the numbers of genes devoted to it and calories burned 5) It is a positive factor in mate selection (Kendrick data --- intelligence a larger factor as the anticipated length of a relationship increases) 6) It is correlated with overall fitness -- height, symmetry, attractiveness, status, health, and mating success in males. Next: Dennis Krebs (Evolution of moral dispositons in the human species) and David Haig (Genomic imprinting and the divided Self) are scheduled for Weds, May 5, 1999, 2:30 P.M. From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 17-APR-1999 07:06:16.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog Barking and Facility Design Please post any replies as this info would be of interest to anyone who deals with dogs. Reply to message from rayenna_rhys@flad.com of Thu, 15 Apr > >Hello, > >I am the reference librarian at Flad & Associates, an architectural firm >headquartered in Madison, Wisconsin, USA. We have been hired by a pet >food manufacturer (that houses and cares for a fairly large number of >cats and dogs) to help them in their strategic planning process. One of >their main concerns is trying to discover a way to minimize the barking >of their dogs (450 of them) since the noise level is not beneficial to >the dogs or humans. They have asked us to investigate what research may >exist on this subject, and while doing a literature search at one of our >university libraries, I "discovered" ISAE and then found this e-mail >network on ISAE's website. > >In general, I have not been successful in finding articles that discuss >how the design of animal housing might reduce the amount of barking. >Several articles mention things like acoustical tiles and sound proofing >walls to reduce noise (which we are fairly knowledgeable about anyway); >we are more curious as to whether there are things we might be able to >do that could actually reduce the amount of barking, not just mask it. >For example, if we designed the dog housing in a circular manner so that >all the dogs could see one another (obviously this would require more >than one circle considering the number of dogs), would the fact that >they could see each other reduce their barking? At the present time >they are housed in such a manner that when someone enters the room, the >first dogs see him but the dogs further back in the room do not. The >first dogs begin to bark and then all the rest join in, but they report >that the barking dies down when all the dogs finally realize who is in >the room. > >I also noticed that the vast majority of research being done on anything >relating to this subject appears to be taking place in Europe. I was >hoping some of you might be able to take a few minutes of your time and >let me know if you are aware of any research that would be helpful to >us, or any individual who would be knowledgeable on this subject. We do >have a fairly decent library that carries some foreign journals, but it >does not carry any proceedings of ISAE Congresses (nor of any of the >other associations that popped up during my literature search). So, if >you are aware of useful research papers, it would also be helpful if you >could provide a way to contact the author(s) as I may not be able to >obtain copies of the papers any other way. > >Thank you for your time. > >Rayenna Rhys >Reference Librarian >Flad & Associates >608-238-2661 phone >608-238-6727 fax >rayenna_rhys@flad.com e-mail > > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 18-APR-1999 12:13:40.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dog and cat question on drug used to euthanize Does anyone know what drug is used to euthanize cats and dogs? Cheers, Chantal :-) From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 18-APR-1999 12:39:58.03 To: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Dog and cat question on drug used to euthanize Chantal: I'm doing a lot work on that topic right now. Sodium pentobarital is the drug of choice of most shelters. It's important, however, that it be administered correctly (i.e., in the right location and in the correct dosage). And, it is important that the animal be handled gently and humanely during the administration (which, unfortuately, is not always the case). An older method (and one which I pray does not exist anyone, anywhere) is a high altitude decompression chamber into which the animals were herded into in groups, the door slammed shut, a "start" button pushed, and a inhumane death followed. Hope this helps. Elizabeth Chandler On Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:21:03 -0400 Chantal Gaboury wrote: > Does anyone know what drug is used to euthanize cats and dogs? > > Cheers, > Chantal :-) Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"avdbrande@student.ulg.ac.be" "Van den Brande Ann" 19-APR-1999 01:09:25.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ape consciousness Hello, Could anyone send me some information about ape consciousness ? Some time ago I saw on TV that it had been proven that chimps elder than 4 can recognise themselves in the mirror... Thanks Ann Van den Brande student,Liege,Belgium From: IN%"DottieDais@aol.com" 19-APR-1999 01:41:28.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Small animal euthanization I have an avid interest in small animals, in particular, rodents, and do some work at a local shelter in socializing and nursing small animals. The current method of euthanization in this shelter is to administer carbon dioxide into a sealed tank until death, which can take anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes. I find this method abhorrent and would like to see a quicker, more humane method. Does anyone have suggestions in this regard? Is the CO2 method as inhumane as I imagine? Thanks, Chris Hurley From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no" "Bjarne O. Braastad" 19-APR-1999 05:46:35.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE'99 congress: Accommodation Dear colleagues, and particularly those who intend to come to ISAE'99 in Lillehammer.=20 As you know, the deadline for reserving accommodation and having the lowest registration fee is 1st May. Fees increase by about 25 % after 1st May.=20 I have the impression that quite many persons intend to reserve an apartment for 3-6 persons for the accommodation. We only have 15 of these (and 10 motel rooms). A close inspection of the price list (Note: prices are per person per night, incl. breakfast) reveals that these apartments some minutes away are not much cheaper than rooms in the first class congress hotel, particularly if you share a room.=20 Another factor of importance to us, is that if too few persons stay in the hotel, we have to pay more for the congress facilities. I would therefore strongly recommend that you reserve rooms in this hotel, which (as mentioned in the 1st and 2nd Announcements) has given us an extraordinary low price (even the small, local hotel here in =C5s would be more= expensive).=20 If you already has booked the apartment and want to change, an e-mail to the congress service will do, putting ISAE99 in the subject line (e-mail: lillarra@online.no). Updated information on the congress will be put on our web pages: http://org.nlh.no/isae99 Yours, Bjarne O. Braastad ******************************************************************* Dr. Bjarne O. Braastad, Assoc. Prof. of Ethology, Chairman of the Organising Committee 33rd International Congress of the ISAE (International Society for Applied Ethology), 17-21 August 1999, Lillehammer, Norway Address: Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: isae99@ihf.nlh.no or bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no=20 fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 internet: http://org.nlh.no/isae99 ********************************************************************* From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 19-APR-1999 06:06:04.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: [rosco@truckee.net: Re: [C.Moinard@bristol.ac.uk: Re: Labelling welfare foods]] Below is a message from my son who is a chef. Thought this might add a dimension to the "range" chicken discussion. If for any reason you wish to contact "Rosco" (my son, Ross) he is now sockeyeboy@yahoo.com. He is an itinerant chef who goes to Alaska and fishes in the summertime and to Truckee in the winter to ski. What a life!!! ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: rosco@truckee.net (RAC) To: aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (D.B. Cameron, DVM) Subject: Re: [C.Moinard@bristol.ac.uk: Re: Labelling welfare foods] Date: Sat, 17 Apr This is not a big surprise. Fortunately, according to my sources, there are a few companies out there that have scruples in the raising of "free range chicken". Unfortunately, they are available only to commercial, i.e. restaurant, accounts. Good for us, bad for you. I did a tasting a number of years back with one such company and there was a remarkable difference. Also, I read about a tasting of regular supermarket brands that was enlightening. Seems that there is quite a difference between these brands too. And the diffence in price is not the best indicator. As I recall, Purdue was low on the scale and one of the cheapies (Gold somethingorother) was the highest ranked. I did my own tasting and found this to be true, but my tasting was more subjective as I did not do a side-by-side. Texture was the biggest difference. Go figure. ********************************************************************* >> A chicken and an egg are lying in bed. >> The chicken is smoking cigarette with a satisfied >> smile on its face. >> The egg is frowning and looking a bit pissed off. >> The egg mutters to no one in particular, >> "Well, I guess we answered THAT question!" >> >> >> At 04:43 PM 4/11/99 -0400, you wrote: > ================= Begin forwarded message ================= > > From: C.Moinard@bristol.ac.uk (Christine Moinard) > To: aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (D.B. Cameron, DVM) > Subject: Re: Labelling welfare foods > Date: Mon, 22 Mar > > > > On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:33:03 -0500 (EST) "D.B. Cameron" > wrote: > > > I am not an expert on the subject, but I have heard from reasonably > > reliable sources that at least in some jurisdictions that "free range" when > > applied to chickens means only that the door to the 10,000 bird coop is open. > > In real life some of the chickens do go out sometimes, but certainly not all. > > I know not if this is true. Can anyone confirm or not. > > good morning > I have done a study on what is call in France Label rouge Chicken. > These birds are labelled free range which mean the following: > they are slaughter at the age of three months , > they spent the first half of their life exclusively inside and they > have access to an outdoor field for there second part of their life > only during day time. > by the end of their life, if the farm afford the bird a nice outdoor > cover you can expect to have more than 50% of the birds using the > outdoor field. (that is on a nice summer day of course). > if the field is barre and only afford grass, just few birds will use > the outdoor field. > so I do confirm what you have already heard, unfortunately the results > of my study have not been published, but if you want more details I can > pass them on to you > bye > christine > > ---------------------- > Christine Moinard > Div Animal Health and Husbandry > Langford > BS40 5DU, UK > tel: (0)117 928 9529 > c.moinard@bristol.ac.uk > > > > >-- > ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 > > RAC aka Rosco ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare ... Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this isn't true. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 19-APR-1999 06:29:04.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog and cat question on drug used to euthanize Reply to message from cgaboury@total.net of Sun, 18 Apr > >Does anyone know what drug is used to euthanize cats and dogs? > >Cheers, >Chantal :-) > Lots of stuff. The old tried-and-true is just plain pentobarbital; also the least expensive and the best, in my opinion. The newer, proprietary products are just a way for drug companies to scrounge another ripoff buck, IMO. -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar" "Carrera de Veterinaria-Universidad del Salvador-Argentina" 19-APR-1999 06:37:03.89 To: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" "D.B. Cameron, DVM" CC: IN%"cacgaboury@total.net", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethol Send to list" Subj: RE: Dog and cat question on drug used to euthanize Give a glance at the AVMA Panel on Euthanasia , JAVMA vol 202, no. 2, JAnuary 1993 Prof . Dr. Leopoldo Estol Director. Carrera Veterinaria Universidad del Salvador Campus Nuestra Sra. del Pilar 1629 C.C. 198 Pilar, Provincia de Buenos Aires ARGENTINA http://www.salvador.edu.ar/uaf3-2.htm ATTENTION : NEW PHONE NUMBERS Tel. & Fx. international +54 2 322 4 31260/63 ---------- > De: D.B. Cameron > A: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Asunto: Re: Dog and cat question on drug used to euthanize > Fecha: Lunes 19 de Abril de 1999 09:27 > > Reply to message from cgaboury@total.net of Sun, 18 Apr > > > >Does anyone know what drug is used to euthanize cats and dogs? > > > >Cheers, > >Chantal :-) > > > > > Lots of stuff. The old tried-and-true is just plain pentobarbital; > also the least expensive and the best, in my opinion. The newer, > proprietary products are just a way for drug companies to scrounge > another ripoff buck, IMO. > > > -- > ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar" "Carrera de Veterinaria-Universidad del Salvador-Argentina" 19-APR-1999 06:48:57.22 To: IN%"DottieDais@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Small animal euthanization The Report of the AVMA Panel on Euthanasia start in 1986 an is periodicaly update. The JAVMA vol 202, no. 2, January 1993, pg 236 descibes advantages, disadvantages and recommendations about the carbon dioxide. Is acceptable for euthanasia like the carbon monoxide. You need a control over the inflow to the chamber to an optimal rate to displace at least 20% of the chamber volume per minute. More rapid unconsciousness may be induced by prefilling the chamber to a CO2 concentration of 70% or more Prof . Dr. Leopoldo Estol Director. Carrera Veterinaria Universidad del Salvador Campus Nuestra Sra. del Pilar 1629 C.C. 198 Pilar, Provincia de Buenos Aires ARGENTINA http://www.salvador.edu.ar/uaf3-2.htm ATTENTION : NEW PHONE NUMBERS Tel. & Fx. international +54 2 322 4 31260/63 ---------- > De: DottieDais@aol.com > A: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Asunto: Small animal euthanization > Fecha: Lunes 19 de Abril de 1999 04:40 > > I have an avid interest in small animals, in particular, rodents, and do some > work at a local shelter in socializing and nursing small animals. The > current method of euthanization in this shelter is to administer carbon > dioxide into a sealed tank until death, which can take anywhere from 20 to 30 > minutes. I find this method abhorrent and would like to see a quicker, more > humane method. > > Does anyone have suggestions in this regard? Is the CO2 method as inhumane > as I imagine? > > Thanks, > > Chris Hurley From: IN%"coosacats@anniston.net" "Wanda Esponge" 19-APR-1999 06:58:57.80 To: IN%"DottieDais@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Small animal euthanization While I know very little about this, I did recently read a post on another list from a facility that raises research lab rats and mice, and they said that they put some type of sedative in the water bottles of the animals before euthanizing, so that they are asleep before going into the CO2 chamber, and die in their sleep. I don't know if this is possible in a research lab where the sedatives might affect test results. Wanda Esponge ---------- > From: DottieDais@aol.com > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Small animal euthanization > Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 2:40 AM > > I have an avid interest in small animals, in particular, rodents, and do some > work at a local shelter in socializing and nursing small animals. The > current method of euthanization in this shelter is to administer carbon > dioxide into a sealed tank until death, which can take anywhere from 20 to 30 > minutes. I find this method abhorrent and would like to see a quicker, more > humane method. > > Does anyone have suggestions in this regard? Is the CO2 method as inhumane > as I imagine? > > Thanks, > > Chris Hurley From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 19-APR-1999 08:01:06.58 To: IN%"DottieDais@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Small animal euthanization DottieDais@aol.com wrote: > > I have an avid interest in small animals, in particular, rodents, and do some > work at a local shelter in socializing and nursing small animals. The > current method of euthanization in this shelter is to administer carbon > dioxide into a sealed tank until death, which can take anywhere from 20 to 30 > minutes. I find this method abhorrent and would like to see a quicker, more > humane method. > > Does anyone have suggestions in this regard? Is the CO2 method as inhumane > as I imagine? > > Thanks, > > Chris Hurley I'm not sure how small the small animals are that you are talking about but the mice and rats which I have seen euthanised with CO2 die in a very short time < 2 min and are unconcious prior to this, about 30 seconds. I suggest that you check the container to see if it is in proper working order and that the CO2 is being administered properly. I agree, anything which takes 30 minutes to kill especially with respiratory distress should not be continued. If it is newborns which are being euthanised this way it may take much longer. I am not sure why but I assume it has something to do with the newborns respiratory system not being fully functional probably as a mechanism to prevent asphyxia during delayed birth. Nora -- Nora Lewis, Ph.D., D.V.M. Department of Animal Science, University of Manitoba, 12 Dafoe Rd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. R3T 2N2 phone: 204 474-9443 fax: 204 474-7628 email Nora_Lewis@UManitoba.Ca From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 19-APR-1999 09:03:21.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Small animal euthanization Hi Dottie! I have had experience with CO2 chambers for euthanasia of chickens and rodents. My experience has been: 1) Dark boxes are best (some CO2 boxes are transparent) because the animal is calmer. 2) Units must be warmed effeciently before use. If it is not a warm unit (by design or preparation), it is probably inhumane. 3) Chickens die in 1 to 3 minutes 4) Rodents die as quickly as chickens. It may be the younger the animal, the faster the process. We usually put the cage in the CO2 unit so the animal remains in a familiar environment. I have read that CO2 methods should not be used for cats and dogs or animals larger because the process is lengthy and, because of this, is inhumane. I don't have experience in this area. DebMcW > Date sent: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 03:40:03 -0400 (EDT) > From: DottieDais@aol.com > Subject: Small animal euthanization > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Send reply to: DottieDais@aol.com > I have an avid interest in small animals, in particular, rodents, and do some > work at a local shelter in socializing and nursing small animals. The > current method of euthanization in this shelter is to administer carbon > dioxide into a sealed tank until death, which can take anywhere from 20 to 30 > minutes. I find this method abhorrent and would like to see a quicker, more > humane method. > > Does anyone have suggestions in this regard? Is the CO2 method as inhumane > as I imagine? > > Thanks, > > Chris Hurley > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" 19-APR-1999 09:19:59.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: ape consciousness apes can recognize food at a much earlier age than 4 ... an infinitely more valuable task : ) G. F. Barbato http://gfb.cas.psu.edu http://genetics.cas.psu.edu > -----Original Message----- > From: Van den Brande Ann [mailto:avdbrande@student.ulg.ac.be] > Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 2:54 AM > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: ape consciousness > > > Hello, > Could anyone send me some information about ape consciousness ? > Some time ago I saw on TV that it had been proven that chimps > elder than 4 > can recognise themselves in the mirror... > > Thanks > Ann Van den Brande > student,Liege,Belgium > From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 19-APR-1999 10:24:48.92 To: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Dog and cat question on drug used to euthanize A working group of our Animal Welfare Council wrote a report for the Minister last year on the euthanasia of dogs and cats "in the field" (i.e. not as lab animals but in kennels or in case of need at home). The various techniques are classified into 3 categories: yes, with some conditions, never. The problem is that officially such reports are confidential and we are not supposed to make them public. However, any citizen is free to ask the Minister what the advice of the Council has been, and common sense tells that, if the text as such cannot be spread, nothing can stop a member to discuss the problem with colleagues without mentioning the opinion of others. As there seems to be quite a bit of interest, I suggest those who are interested to contact our secretary at the ministry and ask whether data, or which data, could be obtained. secretary's email: lieve.parent@cmlag.fgov.be Ministry of Agriculture DG5 - Veterinary Services - Dir.III Animal Welfare Council WTC3 - 5th floor - bur. 37 Simon Bolivarlaan 30 B-1000 Brussels fax: +32-2-2083612 28 Prof.Dr.F.O.OEdberg Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: +32-(0)9-2647849 From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 19-APR-1999 10:44:21.22 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (Fwd) Re: Dog Barking and Facility Design One emprically tested (can't remember true scientific observations) method is to care that all the animals are in constant contact with human activities, whatever the general design of the building. E.g. put big windows between the kennels and corridors, offices, logistic areas; there should be a regular traffic or presence so that the arrival of a person is not a particular event, especially connected with feeding or cleaning. Ask Waltham Master Foods for their design. If I'm not mistaken, Battersea (London) kennels for lost animals are using that principle. Prof.Dr.F.O.OEdberg Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: +32-(0)9-2647849 From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 19-APR-1999 11:39:42.13 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: animal cognition references Hi everyone, I am writing a paper for a cognitive psychology class and, because the book we used in the class had no information about animals, I decided to do the term paper on animal cognition. This is a quite big field and I am trying to narrow myself for the paper. I planned to mirror the information that was in the human cognitive psych book and try to evaluate research looking at memory, problem solving, attention, imagery etc. I have several good books that discuss a lot of theory, but I am particularly interested in some specific examples. If anyone has some references of papers that investigates this, I would love to see your favorite references on this subject. I am interested in experiments that support, as well as those that don't support, theories of animal cognition. Thanks, in advance, for your assistance. Janice Willard From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 19-APR-1999 11:55:21.76 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: animal cognition references I have a book that LOOKS like it's gonna be good--unfortunately, I've only read snippets so far. Animal Learning and Cognition. N.J.Mackintosh, ed.Sand Diego: Academic Press, 1994. oh, also Species of Mind by Marc Bekoff, which I have around here somewhere but can't locate at the moment in order to get the full ref. I'll be interested in what other people recommend! Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== If I look confused, it's because I'm thinking. --Samuel Goldwyn From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 19-APR-1999 12:26:43.31 To: IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve", IN%"hbes-l@lists.missouri.edu" "HBES L CC: IN%"rgj999@yahoo.com" "Russ Gardner, MD" Subj: Comments: Jerome Barkow in NYC Comments in regard to "Do Extraterrestrials Have Sex ..." 4/19/99 The following is also posted at http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary. 1) The "tape" certainly runs many times and at different speeds. The very large --- and getting larger --- distances between solar system and our present understandings of relativity means that physical contact will= require technology that allows multi-generational occupancy of spaceships= . = And would such a culture remain "true" to its social origins or like us, follow its genetic guides for setting and terminating goals? The virus people appear to have a more credible tale --- pick some viruses that are= hardy and scatter them to infect whatever favorable niches they discover.= = As Barkow commented, it may already have happened. He probably should be= recruited into our Paleo gang. 2) Barkow et al (1992) included the phrase "Generation of Culture" in the= ir book title but didn't say much about it inside of their book. This wonderful phrase anticipated more recent implications from the concept of= nonshared environment and the genetic filters that probably influence the= preferences that we have for the things we make and buy; however the explorations conducted within "The Adapted Mind" stay within traditional = EP notions of exactly that, "an adapted mind," a product from an array of niches, perhaps one niche to the adaptation. I hope that someone is developing "Volume II: The Generation of Culture." Geoff Miller is takin= g on this issue in a book that he's promised to all of us this spring. 3) Barkow's kissing off "the EEA": Perhaps one indirect result of Angier= 's spree is EP's becoming more specific about multiple EEAs. Buss (1999) an= d even the "Adapted Mind" acknowledge but don't reminisce very much about t= he memories that we stored in our genes and in our adaptations, memories far= more yellow than Pleistocene dust. The EEA is almost a Biblical notion,= that a magic interval occurred during geological time, an interval that w= as itself unique and gave us unique features. (Another problem with "EEA": Nancy Segal uses it to mean "equal environments assumption" in her book, "Entwined Lives." It is ironic that EEA of either definition means ever= less within behavior genetics or EP.) At this point we are all sufficiently wise to recognize the EEA as too limited and misleading and = to exile Eden from our conceptual armory. 4) There were 25 people in the audience when Barkow began his talk, anoth= er 15 drifted in before he finished but drifted back out before Miller was done. These numbers represent a substantial void after the peak of 150+ --- the majority of whom did not appear to be students --- who attended Hrdy's presentation shortly after the Times backed Angier's book in late February. It may be that "human evolution" has the same appeal as used fish wrap unless some livelier carnival shares the billing and we gain recognition from periodic blurts directed against us. The audience size = is particularly disappointing in contrast with the 2600 estimated by John Brockman's site to have been present for talks in Europe by Dawkins and Pinker. 5) Has anyone has viewed men and women as co-predators? Is there a "reciprocal positive feedback loop" --- apart from sexual selection --- that feeds into a "war between the sexes"? This possibility has to be raised because males and females do NOT go for the absolutely most kind, the most intelligent, the most muscular, or the most of anything. There are rumors that 10 I.Q. points separate members of average human couples and "similarity" is acknowledged as a primary variable in mate choice (Buss, 1994). There seems to be a phase transition that runs from indifference to attraction to suspicion. (Kauffman --- "At Home in the Universe" ---strikes again!) Unbridled sexual selection means that we ought to go for the max in order to salvo gametes towards the future; however, it may be that we "go for the most that we can get that is also not too different from us." It might be that we don't waste resources o= n the unobtainable or the unreliable for mates. It MIGHT also be that we don't want to be outmatched by a partner, that cunning bimbos don't pursu= e Einstein, the cheerleaders really don't care for geeks however kind, and that Brody would say "No" to Cindy Crawford. "Don't let the best of THEM= breed because THEY will get too far ahead"? doubt it ... small wonder th= at I love evolution --- it gives me more "stories" than I find in a naked city. 6) Speaking of Kauffman --- "At Home in the Universe" obscurely summarize= s decades of tedious computer simulations. One finding is that our having= 2 sexes instead of 1 or 3 is fairly predictable. Another is that cooperative networks are an expected outcome and occur within relatively short intervals and on nearly any scale of events. Barkow's conclusions= are "consilient" with Kauffman's models that account for genes, for Dr. Barkow, and for his conclusions. = Beating entropy means building alliances and hierarchies; it also means having rules for maintaining cooperation. Darwin, Huxley, and nearly eve= ry evolutionist since has focused on our nastiness and ignored the manifest cooperative, symbiotic relationships that glue nature together. Our morality is an expression of the same functional relationships that bind the cells of a tree into a common structure. = An earlier grasp of complexity theory --- said to have been described by Maynard Smith as "... fucking crap but fucking crap with some very good p= r" --- means that we could have saved a lot of ink and heat and public alienation for the last 150 years. Evolution might sometimes appear godless and mean; but the meanness is a misleading attribution that perha= ps springs from whatever assumptions that we have about the ultimate causes = or from our mechanisms for identifying niches that will treat us well. But,= that's another step in the generation of culture! 7) Simon Conway Morris, "Crucible of Creation" --- Amazon has it for $21= + shipping Jim Brody "Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values" John Price MD, Russ Gardner MD, John Fentress PhD, James Brody PhD 20th CAPE COD! Institute 7/19-23/1999 The course is a symbiosis of Price, Gardner, Fentress and memes assembled= from Darwin, Kauffman, Barkley, & Plomin, stirred but not shaken, by Jim Brody 15 CME/CEU $455/$300 grad students & interns 610-948-5344 (info) 718-430-2307 (regist) www.cape.org/1999/price.html Paul MacLean Festschrift BOSTON! 7/16-17/99 23 speakers (approx) including Karl Pribram contact Russ Gardner, rgj999@yahoo.com for details From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 19-APR-1999 12:28:30.18 To: IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"hbes-l@lists.missouri.edu" "HBES List Missouri", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwi CC: IN%"rgj999@yahoo.com" "Russ Gardner, MD" Subj: Geoffrey Miller in NYC: Comments Comments re Geoff Miller on Sexual Selection 4/19/99 The following is also posted at http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary. Miller impressed me that he deeply cares about evolution and getting thin= gs right. Also, his coherence is awesome and he has a manner that suggests,= "Here are the facts, live with them." --- one that I found refreshing but= that may not have soothed this particular audience. I'm the deviant one and thought he had not only great slides but also great insights about "g= " and about DNA. For example: "g doesn't care if you believe in it" in response to challenge from the audience; "'g' is the most substantiated fact in psychology." When asked about Plomin's identification of an "intelligence gene," "Psychology needs to learn what the letters 'DNA' mean and pretty quickly= " Attendance was down sharply from the Hrdy crowd; it could be that Hunter audiences choose speakers on the same basis that cops pick donut shops, spending time with people who agree with them. = I'm less timid about his work after this, our second meeting, and now mention a couple of issues so that he might help with them someday: 1) Given the substantial intercorrelation of fitness indicators --- intelligence, symmetry, liveliness, etc. --- I again suggest that we consider a sensory phenomenon (lateral inhibition) as a primary contribut= or to sexual selection. Sexual selection must rest on fairly simple neural mechanisms because many species with relatively simple neural systems sho= w the effects of "sexual selection" or "supernormal stimuli." Even creatur= es the size of a twig must be able to avoid mating with a twig or expecting = to eat or be eaten by one. A moving predator is more obvious than a sedenta= ry one, and a larger predator perhaps elicits more immediate reactions than = a smaller one does. Likewise for the things that attract us. Our eyes, ears, and skin all focus by cross talk between adjacent sensory= units so that a small difference in absolute sensory input is multiplied = in exactly the manner described by Barkow and by Miller in regard to sexual selection. Thus, our mechanisms for sexual selection could be fundamentally very uncomplicated and very old (350 million years?) and widely shared across species and across modules (Brody, HBES, 1998). We can probably also avoid talking about "handicaps" or interpret the hundre= ds of studies on this topic a bit differently. 2) Miller (and others!) don't consider phase transitions, that it is possible to have too much of a good thing. Homeostatic costs (Bateson an= d others) rein physiological traits and supply a selective pressure that should build more automatic, less expensive systems to meet niche demands= . = Much less is said about excesses of mental abilities. However, intelligence has its products of excess, sometimes labeled as "geeks," "Aspergers," and "bipolar disorder." "Mania" --- the elated, driven component of bipolar disorder --- is especially challenging becaus= e it is associated with grandiosity, selfishness, high energy level, high word flow, higher than average intelligence, lessened need for sleep, and= high reproductive success. (My active clients remark that they need to "get a load off in order to sleep at night!") All of these things sugges= t neurophysiological efficiency and high fitness. These traits are also associated with higher than average levels of anxiety (separation --- where's mom, where's my anchor?) when allies are missing or of questionab= le loyalty. Such people become our leaders, they also become our Hitlers an= d Maos if niche conditions are suitable. They are also more likely to comm= it suicide or bankrupt the rest of us and a large percentage of them do so. Again, we can be suspicious of "too much of a good thing" and relatively unelaborate sensory mechanisms could be the proximate mechanism --- that sexual selection picks incremental aberrations, that this year's monstrosity might be acceptable in a half dozen generations but not THIS round. Our social "common sense" follows similar progressions and may al= so imply sensory mechanisms that are shared by many other creatures. 3) A newspaper headline, "Woman stalker attacks Limerick police chief" --= - she's been after him for 3 years, otherwise I would have blamed the behavior of this 300# female on Angier's book. Women and men overlap substantially on nearly any trait; Guinness records may include more fema= le entries if they listed the top 15 competitors instead of just the first. The apparent problem of male excess could also be aggravated by receptor bias. The trite slogan is that "MEN keep track of these things" and the boring rebuttal is that we do it to impress women, not just other men. = However, a receptor bias for movement detection --- and our sensory apparatus responds most strongly to change, not to static conditions --- means that high dopamine-churning males are gonna' get noticed. It's not= that males "do more" than females but that males do more that we are wire= d to notice. (Nisbett was partially correct, but only partially.) Females are busy but less often noticed. "Female records" are set for buying self help books and many of them buy the books to fix children, marriages, or to abate their own depressions. Females not only get depressed more often than males but are especially apt to be distressed b= y illness, malformations, and social exclusion of their child. If we consider ourselves to have a brain that is usually in "go mode," then female inhibition, observing rules, considering options, and even changin= g their mind are the more interesting events. Females: 1) Teach, heal, console, help, and monitor everyone --- perhaps to avoid danger but also to regulate membership in long term groups. 2) Regulate male hierarchic standing (McGuire and Troisi, 1998) 3) Overlap males on nearly every trait imagined. 4) Have children --- every record for having babies is held by a female! = Females also hold records for taking children to doctors, paying off husband's bills, and dragging males to varied counselors because male restlessness gets males in trouble. 5) Are far less apt to get in trouble in school, an environment dominated= by female rules and demands for writing, sitting still, listening to direction, and following rules. These skills all reflect superior executive functions for the tasks that are required in school (see below,= "Barkley"). 6) Are perhaps "tuned" for one role in child rearing from menarche to menopause, a role that shifts the nature and influence of their political= alliances. Post menopausal women -- in benign environmental conditions -= -- not only write more books than they did when younger, they also travel, r= un for office, get divorced, arrange marriages, and fly. Pre menopausal women --- perhaps the same ones that Gangestad described as executing multiple mating strategies --- start to act like guys because females basically like and enjoy a lot of the same things the guys do. No surprise, we have largely the same genes so we are going to be alike. Invoking a "receptor bias" for sexual selection as well as for fitness detection could eliminate some of the difficulties that could be imagined= between "we are the same" and "we are different" outcomes from sexual and= natural selection. The sensory adaptation is for magnifying differences;= niche variability prevents our becoming all the same and could imply some= adaptive value to a higher mutation rate. Social preferences are part of= our --- and most other species --- niche variability. None of us, becaus= e of the nature of nurture, the nature of nonshared environments, will ever= have the same niche. It's intriguing, that our preoccupation with males and our preoccupation with "evil" could be evolutionary outcomes of receptor tuning --- that males are expendable, are the defenders against other males (and perhaps hunt for the same reasons that we kill other humans), and are the dangero= us ones to monitor. 4) Both Miller and Gangestad mentioned the problem of variability --- the= same one that troubled Darwinians before genes were discovered. First, traits don't blend and second, given constant niches, then we should all = be perfect for that niche in a few generations. However, male drosophila ha= ve been plugging away at this goal and still only 10% of the mate. (Imagine= a graduate student finding the loci that make nothing but perfect male fruitflies? That there is an equal probability of mating for all of them= ?) Mutations, pathogens, trauma are all possible contributors to variabilit= y. Miller alluded to a mutational load for all of us that must be greater th= an we earlier thought. We have had 5 decades of arguing --- because of genetic cross over --- that any important trait must be highly structured= and of low variability. However, Kauffman, 1993 (Origins of Order) mentioned the early returns from protein gel electrophoresis, data that revealed tremendous variability in proteins and in DNA sequences and that= we need to rethink "... the idea that organisms must be precise in order = to function at all ..." I've lately noticed the opposite view develop, that high mutational loads= are an adaptation! A sort of "nature's way" to be on guard against meteors, volcanoes, and hominids who burn forests. Two outcomes --- "Universal Human Nature" goes in the can and Diane Scarr is right that it= 's OK if we're all different and that "different" does not imply superiority= . = = If constant differences are a given in the Rule Book, and if males are th= e more variable part of our species, then females may be the conservators, the ones who judge which of us erratic males gets to share gametes for Round 2. Females, for whom we are so lively, are also the ones to keep = us --- genetically or when we're in classrooms -- from being too variable, t= oo lively, and too unstable. = Thus, women need to find not only the most lively, but also be on guard against too much fitness, fitness that is expensive, varied, attractive, persistent, and associated with high word flow and that can predict suicide, abuse, familial abandonment, and scattered kids from a series of= different mothers. (Likewise for the males who discover one of the many bipolar females!) 5) About word flow: Russ Barkley ("ADHD and the Nature of Self Control," Guilford, 1977) is persuasive (LOTS of data and references) that attentio= n deficit hyperactivity disorder is associated with impairments in planning= and sharing plans, word retrieval, sequencing ideas, maintaining mental agendas, and modulating emotionality so that it supports more delayed goals. (This list is sometimes summarized as our "executive functions.")= = Problem analysis and the synthesis of new response sequences --- all impairments seen with ADHD and sometimes correlated with impairments in frontal orbital areas. Approximately 3-5 times as many males than female= s achieve diagnostic criteria for ADHD. I think Miller would agree that the adaptation is NOT the number of words= uttered, ADHD children and adults are ordinarily talkative and get in trouble for so doing in the wrong contexts. They may be the ones who prattle with the 100-4000 basic words that fill most of our time. They also have difficulty with learning new words, retrieving them, putting th= em in proper sequence in presentations. Barkley suggests that the social advantage, especially in our modern culture, is that people who better access to a wider array of ideas are less impulsive, more thoughtful, better able to work for delayed outcomes= , and more apt to modify traditions in a constructive manner. If Barkley i= s on target, then females and males must separate out the lively, quick, neurally efficient but disconnected minds from those that are more consistent, calculating, and deliberative. I think that Geoff and Russ ought to share ideas very very soon and that sexual selection ratchets incrementally for good reasons, that most of us avoid either making or becoming the biggest handicap in town. Jim Brody "Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values" John Price MD, Russ Gardner MD, John Fentress PhD, James Brody PhD 20th CAPE COD! Institute 7/19-23/1999 The course is a symbiosis of Price, Gardner, Fentress and memes assembled= from Darwin, Kauffman, Barkley, & Plomin, stirred but not shaken, by Jim Brody 15 CME/CEU $455/$300 grad students & interns 610-948-5344 (info) 718-430-2307 (regist) www.cape.org/1999/price.html Paul MacLean Festschrift BOSTON! 7/16-17/99 23 speakers (approx) including Karl Pribram contact Russ Gardner, rgj999@yahoo.com for details From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 19-APR-1999 14:07:16.08 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: animal cognition references I found the _Species of Mind_ book. Species of Mind. Colin Allen and Marc Bekoff. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 1997. Ione ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Huh? -- me From: IN%"ragtuswa@eden.rutgers.edu" "Michael Toscano" 20-APR-1999 00:48:41.21 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: animal cognition references Janice, You might try contacting Rob Shumaker at the National Zoo who is working with cognition in orangutans. He gives quite an impressive demonstration. His e-mail is RSHUMAKE@VMS1.GMU.EDU. Good luck, mike toscano 732-448-0004 Janice Willard wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I am writing a paper for a cognitive psychology class and, because the book > we used in the class had no information about animals, I decided to do the > term paper on animal cognition. This is a quite big field and I am trying > to narrow myself for the paper. I planned to mirror the information that > was in the human cognitive psych book and try to evaluate research looking > at memory, problem solving, attention, imagery etc. I have several good > books that discuss a lot of theory, but I am particularly interested in > some specific examples. If anyone has some references of papers that > investigates this, I would love to see your favorite references on this > subject. I am interested in experiments that support, as well as those that > don't support, theories of animal cognition. > > Thanks, in advance, for your assistance. > > Janice Willard From: IN%"bjorn.forkman@zoologi.su.se" "forkman" 20-APR-1999 01:00:23.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: SV: animal cognition references Dear Janice, I can strongly recommend a new book by Sara Shettleworth "Cognition, = Evolution and Behaviour", Oxford University Press 1998. In contrast with most books on learning and cognition I think this one = really succeeds in putting cognition into a biological perspective. "Principles of animal cognition" (Roberts, McGraw Hill 1998) is also a = good book, though it deals more with just that, the principles, and has = less of the biological background. Best of luck, Bj=F6rn=20 *************************************************** Bj=F6rn Forkman Dep of Zoology, University of Stockholm 106 91 Stockholm, Sweden +46 (0)8 164048 From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 20-APR-1999 02:34:53.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: cognition references One of the most interesting and readable books I have found on aspects of animal cognition is - Byrne, R. (1995). The Thinking Ape: Evolutionary Origins of Intelligence. Oxford University Press, Oxford, UK ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"s.appleyard@ed.sac.ac.uk" "Steve Appleyard" 20-APR-1999 04:18:18.01 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: New(ish) topic: behaviour sequences 0100,0100,0100Dear all, I wonder if might stimulate another discussion? Hopefully, some of you won't delete this message straight away. It is quite long, I know, but maybe you could print it out for bedtime reading? ;-) I have been wondering for some while about the possible benefits of sequence analyses. In his book "Problems of Animal Behaviour", McFarland uses a robot analogy: "When operating in the environment for which it is designed, the robot can maximise efficiency by sequencing its behaviour in an optimal manner, within the limits set by the constraints inherent in the situation" (p. 139) McFarland was referring to a cleaning robot which had a number of different cleaning tasks to perform. Should it clean the windows first or hoover, and how long should it spend doing one task before switching to another, etc. Basically, what I want people to think about is: do genetically encoded algorythms exist which govern the sequencing of certain behaviours? and if so, what types of behaviour and at what level do the genes exert their control? For example, optimal foraging theory and patch theory springs to mind. These theories use cost-benefit analyses to answer questions such as, how long shall an animal keep searching for food in a given patch before giving up and looking for another patch. Obviously, animals which do this most efficiently will be favoured through evolution. How about vigilance behaviour? Evolutionary arms races between predator and prey predict successive adaptations for avoiding capture for the prey and stalking prey more efficiently for the predator. Obvious useful adaptations for the prey would be improved sensory accuity: big eyes (all the better to see you with), big ears (all the better to hear you with), etc. What about in situations when the prey animals senses don't pick up anything potentially dodgy? Should the prey animal eat all the time and not raise its head during this time, or should it raise its head just in case its ears are blocked with wax (or for whatever reason, it can't trust its senses). If so, is there an underlying rythm to the head lifts? (e.g. see Alados et al, 1996 - Anim. Behav., and recent discussions in the same journal on bird vigilance patterns). What about other strongly motivated behaviours? E.g. nest-building prior to farrowing in pigs. Do the sequences of: look for nest site, hollow out ground, look for nesting material, line nest with material, whilst being vigilant; follow underlying genetic algorythms dictating the optimal method favoured by evolution. Work in this department a couple of years ago found that certain behaviour sequences in sows farrowing in straw pens followed power law equations. Any comments? Cheers, Steve __________________________________________________ Steve Appleyard, Department of Behavioural Sciences, Division of Animal Biology, Scottish Agricultural College, West Mains Road, Edinburgh. EH9 3JG Tel. +44 131 535 3243 FAX: +44 131 535 3121 http://www.sac.ac.uk/ __________________________________________________ From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 20-APR-1999 14:01:56.22 To: IN%"skoyles@bigfoot.com" "Dr. John R. Skoyles" CC: IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"hbes-l@lists.missouri.edu" "HBES List Missouri", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET: Subj: RE: Geoffrey Miller John Skoyles, You're one of my heroes and you're throwing mud on another one! Oh gosh, what to do, what to do. I think it's possible to stick rigorously with natural selectionist model= s (with some strands from D'Arcy Thompson's offspring and obscurant Stu Kauffman) and fully account for Manhattan. Working on it! Done by July! Jim "Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values" John Price MD, Russ Gardner MD, John Fentress PhD, James Brody PhD 20th CAPE COD! Institute 7/19-23/1999 The course is a symbiosis of Price, Gardner, Fentress and memes assembled= from Darwin, Kauffman, Barkley, & Plomin, stirred but not shaken. 15 CME/CEU $455/$300 grad students & interns 610-948-5344 (info) 718-430-2307 (regist) www.cape.org/1999/price.html Paul MacLean Festschrift BOSTON! 7/16-17/99 23 speakers (approx) including Karl Pribram contact Russ Gardner, rgj999@yahoo.com for details From: IN%"jpgarner@ucdavis.edu" 21-APR-1999 02:22:23.76 To: IN%"s.appleyard@ed.sac.ac.uk" "'Steve Appleyard'" CC: Subj: RE: New(ish) topic: behaviour sequences
Hi=20 steve, could you forward this to the list, it keeps bouncing my = messages...=20 Thanks
 
There's quite a lot of literature out there on the sequencing = of=20 behaviour, but most of the work that springs to mind is mechanistic with = a=20 functional flavour (rather than functional with a mechanistic flavour, = as in=20 Steve's post). John Fentress has written huge amounts on the subject, = and at the=20 single cell level Wayne-Aldridge has performed some beautiful = experiments on the=20 syntax of rat grooming.
 
Cheers
 
Joe
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: Steve Appleyard=20 [mailto:s.appleyard@ed.sac.ac.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, = 1999 4:16=20 AM
To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: = New(ish)=20 topic: behaviour sequences

Dear=20 all,

I wonder if might stimulate another discussion? = Hopefully, some=20 of you won't delete this message straight away. It is quite long, I = know,=20 but maybe you could print it out for bedtime reading? ;-)

I = have been=20 wondering for some while about the possible benefits of sequence=20 analyses.

In his book "Problems of Animal = Behaviour",=20 McFarland uses a robot analogy:
"When operating in the=20 environment for which it is designed, the robot can maximise = efficiency by=20 sequencing its behaviour in an optimal manner, within the limits set = by the=20 constraints inherent in the situation" (p. = 139)

McFarland=20 was referring to a cleaning robot which had a number of different = cleaning=20 tasks to perform. Should it clean the windows first or hoover, and = how long=20 should it spend doing one task before switching to another, etc.=20

Basically, what I want people to think about is: do = genetically=20 encoded algorythms exist which govern the sequencing of certain = behaviours?=20 and if so, what types of behaviour and at what level do the genes = exert=20 their control?

For example, optimal foraging theory and = patch theory=20 springs to mind. These theories use cost-benefit analyses to answer=20 questions such as, how long shall an animal keep searching for food = in a=20 given patch before giving up and looking for another patch. = Obviously,=20 animals which do this most efficiently will be favoured through=20 evolution.

How about vigilance behaviour? Evolutionary arms = races=20 between predator and prey predict successive adaptations for = avoiding=20 capture for the prey and stalking prey more efficiently for the = predator.=20 Obvious useful adaptations for the prey would be improved sensory = accuity:=20 big eyes (all the better to see you with), big ears (all the better = to hear=20 you with), etc. What about in situations when the prey animals = senses don't=20 pick up anything potentially dodgy? Should the prey animal eat all = the time=20 and not raise its head during this time, or should it raise its head = just in=20 case its ears are blocked with wax (or for whatever reason, it can't = trust=20 its senses). If so, is there an underlying rythm to the head lifts? = (e.g.=20 see Alados et al, 1996 - Anim. Behav., and recent discussions in the = same=20 journal on bird vigilance patterns).

What about other = strongly=20 motivated behaviours? E.g. nest-building prior to farrowing in pigs. = Do the=20 sequences of: look for nest site, hollow out ground, look for = nesting=20 material, line nest with material, whilst being vigilant; follow = underlying=20 genetic algorythms dictating the optimal method favoured by = evolution. Work=20 in this department a couple of years ago found that certain = behaviour=20 sequences in sows farrowing in straw pens followed power law=20 equations.

Any = comments?

Cheers,
Steve



___________________=
_______________________________
Steve Appleyard,
Department of Behavioural Sciences,
Division of Animal Biology,
Scottish Agricultural College,
West Mains Road,
Edinburgh.
EH9 3JG

Tel. +44 131 535 3243 =20
FAX: +44 131 535 3121

http://www.sac.ac.uk/
__________________________________________________
From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 21-APR-1999 09:25:06.42 To: IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve" CC: IN%"rgj999@yahoo.com" "Russ Gardner, MD" Subj: Peacocks and Displays I glanced at the cover to Zahavi & Zahavi and admired the "eye spots" (never having thought before now to label them in that way) on the peacoc= k tail. Many see that tail as a "cost" in regard to predators and metabolic requirements. However ... "Eye contact" can be attractive or menacing in humans and primates. = Increasing "envelope size" is also intimidating. = I wonder if "eye contact" has also been established as a component of a threat display in other species. If so, that large tail and all those eye= s may have some benefits for the male in regard to intimidating any of us w= ho would like to eat peacocks. = AND the mechanisms -- if they exist! -- might be common across a lot of branches of the phylogenetic tree. AND, how many other "male" exaggerations have gains for the male beyond those of impressing females? Anyone know of any data? Jim Brody From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 21-APR-1999 09:52:17.34 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_S CC: IN%"rgj999@yahoo.com" "Russ Gardner, MD" Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays I only know that I am reminded of similar spots on butterfly wings. Peggy At 11:12 AM 4/21/99 -0400, James F. Brody wrote: >I glanced at the cover to Zahavi & Zahavi and admired the "eye spots" >(never having thought before now to label them in that way) on the peacock > BIG SNIP < >AND, how many other "male" exaggerations have gains for the male beyond >those of impressing females? > >Anyone know of any data? > >Jim Brody > > Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) PO Box 844 Arlee MT 59821-0844 USA 406-726-3342 arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 21-APR-1999 09:53:35.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: behaviour sequences Hi all! In response to Steve Appleyard's request for discussion: 1) Re: genetically encoded algoythms for sequencing of behaviours. If flexibility in behaviour (physiology also?) is important for successful adaptations, then those species with the most behavioural flexibility would be most successful. If species with brain cortex, or the most cortex, are best able to be flexible then they may have the most successful adaptations. Genetically coded behaviour sequences, it seems, may MOST likely be found in the GREATER quantity in species without developed cortexes. These species would have the least flexibility in behavioural adaptations. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"JSWANSON@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" 21-APR-1999 10:06:47.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ethogram publisher I have been asked by Dr. I. Lehr Brisbin (ISAE member) to post this question to the applied ethology list. Please respond directly to Lehr at brisbin@srel.edu. Are there any publishing houses who are willing to publish a monograph or serial article that is a complete ethogram? Apparently Lehr has cataloged the behavior of feral dogs in New Guinea. He has written this up (about 80-90 pages) and would very much like to see this work peer reviewed and then published. The problem is that the manuscript is probably too small for a separate monograph but too large for a journal article. I recall years ago some journals would publish either in monograph form, or in their serials, catalogs of animal behavior. If anyone has experience or knowledge of publishers who would consider his work for publication please contact Dr. Brisbin. Thanks you. Janice Swanson From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 21-APR-1999 10:18:01.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays Hey Jim! Let's not forget cats and their use of eye contact!!!! A cat can challenge another with a wide-eyed stare and the "challengee" can decline the proposition by looking away. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" 21-APR-1999 12:08:24.52 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Behaviour sequences Re Steve Appleyard's contribution. I think that the area which you have written about in your contribution is very interesting and important. I wrote quite a lot about control of motor sequences and the use of sequence analysis in trying to understand motivation in chapters 3 and 4 of my 1981 book Biology of Behaviour (C.U.P.). Since then the level of sophistication of analytical tools available for investigating such topics has increased greatly. However, despite the great importance of motvation in relation to several questions in applied ethology, progress has been rather slow. To be more specific, questions which you raise about the organisation of nest-building and how it might be affected by stimuli and the availability of opportunities for carrying out actions are worth studying. So are questions about mechanisms for switching from one functional system to another, e.g. feeding to vigilance. Sometimes, however, research workers get carried away by the elegance of an analytical method and forget the original question. Motivation rules! Don Broom Professor D.M.Broom, Animal Welfare and Human-Animal Interactions Group, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge, Cambridge CB3 0ES, U.K. Telephone:44 (0)1223 337697.Fax:44 (0)1223 337610. From: IN%"S.Gragert@t-online.de" 21-APR-1999 12:12:33.08 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Kosovo refugees Dear All, thousands of people from kosova are desperately searching for their missing relatives. 400 000 advertisements can found under http://kosovo.suchanzeigen.de, where you can post your ads for free on the web.(German) Please report any such search possiblilities in other countries with lists of people who search for people and/or the possiblities to post ads. If you would like to post an ad on suchanzeigen.de and have problems with the German language, simply send me an e-mail and I will do it for you. Apologies for being thematically out of ethology, Yours sincerely Stephanie Gragert ----------------------- Stephanie Gragert Kochstr. 59 04275 Leipzig Germany Tel 0049 341 3304368 Fax 0049 40 3603253558 S.Gragert@t-online.de From: IN%"arkabc@arkanimals.com" "Ark Animals" 21-APR-1999 19:32:27.66 CC: Subj: information request off list I am currently searching for references in relation to aggression in domestic canines or felines toward pregnant women. I have anecdotal stories but need some concrete references. Any help would be appreciated. Please respond to me directly as I am currently not subscribed to the list. Best Regards, Diana Guerrero arkabc@arkanimals.com Diana Guerrero AATT Ark Animals PO Box 1154 Escondido, CA 92033 arkabc@arkanimals.com Appointments at 800.818.7387 24 Hour Information 760.599.3697 "We Take Over Where Noah Left Off!" From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 22-APR-1999 03:12:18.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Deborah McWilliams wrote: > Hey Jim! > Let's not forget cats and their use of eye contact!!!! A cat can > challenge another with a wide-eyed stare and the "challengee" can > decline the proposition by looking away. > > DebMcW > Although apparently cats can also interpret eye contact as a friendship sign - the Anthrozoology unit at Southampton published a paper recently which showed that cats were attracted to people who looked at them for longer periods of time. c.f. belladonna as a technological means of generating a "super" eye-contact signal in humans. How do humans & cats determine whether eye contact is a threat or a friendly signal? ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"c.moons@planetinternet.be" "c.moons" 22-APR-1999 04:08:11.28 To: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays "Although apparently cats can also interpret eye contact as a friendship sign - the Anthrozoology unit at Southampton published a paper recently which showed that cats were attracted to people who looked at them for longer periods of time. c.f. belladonna as a technological means of generating a "super" eye-contact signal in humans. How do humans & cats determine whether eye contact is a threat or a friendly signal?" Isn't it true that if cats narrow their eyes when looking at a human (or perhaps a conspecific animal) it's a sign of friendliness/trust? Just something I heard.... Christel ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 22-APR-1999 04:08:31.46 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve", IN%"rgj999@yahoo.com" "Russ Gardner, M Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays Hi James, > Many see that tail as a "cost" in regard to predators and metabolic > requirements. However ... > "Eye contact" can be attractive or menacing in humans and primates. > Increasing "envelope size" is also intimidating. > I wonder if "eye contact" has also been established as a component of a > threat display in other species. If so, that large tail and all those eyes > may have some benefits for the male in regard to intimidating any of us who > would like to eat peacocks. I am not aware on any data on threatening effect of eye spot, but I happen to have reviewed a paper hinting in the opposite direction. Tomonichi Kobayashi presented mynhas with photographs of displaying male peacocks. Mynhas consistently pecked first at the photo showing the "most beautiful" tail (i.e. more and more symmetrical eye spots) (Kobayashi, to be published in Ornis Svecica). This shows also that, as suggested by Jim, the mechanism by which eye spots work are common across different species. However, note that such mechanims go in the direction of _impressing_ individual of several species (female peacocks, mynhas, humans) rather than causing them to go away. This also means that it becomes unnecessary to postulate that eye spots signal male quality, since we can just assume that the females are more "impressed" by the better looking tails. One other problem with the hypothesis of a role of tailsin aggressive interactions is that they would also scare females, it seems to me. Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 22-APR-1999 05:20:37.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays and Eye contact At 10:11 AM 4/22/99 +0100, R. Rodd wrote: >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Deborah McWilliams wrote: > >> Hey Jim! >> Let's not forget cats and their use of eye contact!!!! A cat can >> challenge another with a wide-eyed stare and the "challengee" can >> decline the proposition by looking away. >> >> DebMcW >> >Although apparently cats can also interpret eye contact as a friendship >sign - the Anthrozoology unit at Southampton published a paper >recently which showed that cats were attracted to people who looked at >them for longer periods of time. c.f. belladonna as a technological means >of generating a "super" eye-contact signal in humans. How do humans & cats >determine whether eye contact is a threat or a friendly signal? > > ---------------------------------------- >Rosemary Rodd Probably the same way that dogs do, by the rest of the face, body, etc. In dogs, for example, excessive blinking is a calming signal. Ref: Turid Rugaas Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 22-APR-1999 06:15:24.78 To: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" CC: IN%"rgj999@yahoo.com" "Russ Gardner, MD", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.co Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays Message text written by Stefano Ghirlanda >This shows also that, as suggested by Jim, the mechanism by which eye spots work are common across different species. However, note that such mechanims go in the direction of _impressing_ individual of several species (female peacocks, mynhas, humans) rather than causing them to go away. This also means that it becomes unnecessary to postulate that eye spots signal male quality, since we can just assume that the females are more "impressed" by the better looking tails. One other problem with the hypothesis of a role of tailsin aggressive interactions is that they would also scare females, it seems to me.< Stefano, Eyes have frames; is there a comparison for the placement of the "iris" within each spot on a tail? Human eye contact invites martinis, steaks, and pillows or it warns of combat. "You've got that look in your eye" --= - ambiguous language that could apply to polar opposite behaviors. Showin= g the entire iris is perhaps more intimidating than showing parts of it? Scaring females --- male homo sapiens adolesencsis and those in their ear= ly 20s tell me that lady companions generate less gaff and are more loyal if= periodically the male lies, yells, takes their money, and acts like a generalized turd. These reports could be rationalizations; they are also= inconsistent with "kindness is #1" data from David Buss. However, talk a= nd action are sometimes inconsistent and I don't know if they guys are kinde= r than they report or if some kind of deception operated universally in the= Buss respondents. Thanks for the ideas ... too many possibilities for an early Thursday morning! Jim From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 22-APR-1999 06:15:56.86 To: IN%"c.moons@planetinternet.be" "c.moons", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays Message text written by "c.moons" >Isn't it true that if cats narrow their eyes when looking at a human (or= perhaps a conspecific animal) it's a sign of friendliness/trust? Just something I heard.... Christel< I think I remember from my youth similar phenomena with human females. Jim Brody From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 22-APR-1999 06:37:10.61 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays and Eye contact In a message dated 4/22/99 6:33:06 AM Central Daylight Time, bregman@interactive.net writes: << In dogs, for example, excessive blinking is a calming signal. >> This is very interesting. Is there a reference you can cite for this information? Thanks in advance. Debbie Horwitz, DVM, DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations St. Louis, Missouri From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 22-APR-1999 06:43:58.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays and Eye contact At 08:33 AM 4/22/99 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 4/22/99 6:33:06 AM Central Daylight Time, >bregman@interactive.net writes: > ><< In dogs, for example, excessive blinking is a calming signal. > >> >This is very interesting. Is there a reference you can cite for this >information? Thanks in advance. > >Debbie Horwitz, DVM, DACVB Yes. Ref: Turid Rugaas book called Calming Signal in Dogs. I thought that I had put it in the post. There are a number of calming signals, sniffing, lip licking, looking away. I must reread the book, it was very interesting and I've forgotten some stuff, and I just sent for the videos. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 22-APR-1999 08:33:21.75 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays and Eye contact Are these statements backed up with empirical testing, e.g. blinking at a dog results in a lowered heart rate, as measured by ECG or are they just Rugaas' personal opinions? How does Rugaas define "calming"? Sharon Crowell-Davis > Ref: Turid Rugaas book called Calming Signal in Dogs. > I thought that I had put it in the post. > > There are a number of calming signals, sniffing, lip licking, looking away. > > I must reread the book, it was very interesting and I've forgotten some > stuff, and I just sent for the videos. > > Vivian > > > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > interested in everything to do with science, > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net > ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 22-APR-1999 09:14:51.66 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: behaviour sequences Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > If flexibility in behaviour (physiology also?) is important for > successful adaptations, then those species with the most behavioural > flexibility would be most successful. I think we have to be a little careful with generalizations. In a changing environment, with few offspring and time for teaching flexibility may be an asset but in other circumstances it may not. Genetically encoded behaviour or stability of response is much faster on average than flexible choice behaviour, therefore there may be many advantages to relatively fixed behaviour patterns. (This may also be much too much of a generalization.) We should definetly keep in mind that the most successful species have little flexibility at least compared to the mammals and birds who so far are a flash in the pan in evolutionary terms. Nora -- Nora Lewis, Ph.D., D.V.M. Department of Animal Science, University of Manitoba, 12 Dafoe Rd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. R3T 2N2 phone: 204 474-9443 fax: 204 474-7628 email Nora_Lewis@UManitoba.Ca From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 22-APR-1999 10:16:43.61 To: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" CC: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays and Eye contact I'm not very interested in defending Rugaas' scheme and interpretation of "calming signals" in dogs (which I didn't find very impressive or convincing), but only to point out that calming, pacifying, or compromise signals (among other names given to these movements), are variations of cut-off signals--signals that have long been recognized by ethologists to play an important role in the modulation of social behavior The significance of cut-off signals has long been recognized by ethologists. The concept was first described by Chance (1962). In addition to some of the well-known social threat and appeasement displays exhibited by the dog, cut-off signals are social modulatory movements employed to postpone or break off agonistic conflict. These movements are often composed of escape intentions (turning the head-body to the side or closing/lowering the eyes) or displacement activities (yawning). The cut-off action has been referred to as a "compromise" movement by Tinbergen and defined by him as a "movement caused by ambivalent motivation ...between two conflicting movements" (1964:216). In the case of agonistic encounters, the cut-off is an expressive compromise between fighting and fleeing. One apparent function of the cut-off or compromise movement is to momentarily suspend sensory contact with the arousing stimulus; thereby, breaking off stimulation (threshold modulation) that might otherwise evoke an attack, while avoiding, on the other hand, a chase if the animal opted to run away. Besides producing pacifying effects on the animal exhibiting them, compromise signals appear to influence the opponent to reciprocate in kind, leading to a mutual compromise. Leyhausen (1973) had this pacifying function in mind when he wrote about these secondary effects of cut-off actions: "Such behavior, however, indicates that, on the one hand, an animal is not prepared to yield but also that, on the other, it is not for its part in an aggressive mood. Such a gesture of severing contact contains an offer of peace as well as a warning to the other not to push matters to the limit, and this is the effect it often produces, i.e., in many animals there are appropriate receptive IRMs [innate releasing mechanisms] (1973:304-305)." The compromise signal is not a submissive gesture, but an opportunity for the contestants to call a draw and "walk away" without loss or gain of status (i.e., saving face). Generally, the cut-off signal appears to have a mutually pacifying effect which curtails hostilities before they have a chance to escalate into more serious conflict. Cut-off signals do not necessarily carry status significance, they simply function to smooth over agonistic tensions through compromise. In effect, therefore, cut-off signals suggest (as pointed out by Tinbergen) a compromise between potential adversaries, in contrast to threat or appeasement. Consequently, there are at least three ways in which agonistic behavior is socially modulated: appeasement, compromise, and threat (ACT). References Chance MRA (1962) An interpretation of some agonistic postures: the role of “cut-off” acts and postures. Symposia of the Zoological Society of London, 8:71-89. Leyhausen P (1973). The biology of expression and impression. In BA Tonkin (Trans) Motivation of Human and Animal Behavior: A Ethological View. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Co. Tinbergen N (1964). The evolution of signaling devices. In W Etkin (Ed). Social Behavior and Organization Among Vertebrates. Chicago, IL: Univ of Chicago Press. Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services Philadelphia, PA Sharon Crowell-Davis wrote: > Are these statements backed up with empirical testing, e.g. blinking > at a dog results in a lowered heart rate, as measured by ECG or are > they just Rugaas' personal opinions? How does Rugaas define > "calming"? > > Sharon Crowell-Davis > > > Ref: Turid Rugaas book called Calming Signal in Dogs. > > I thought that I had put it in the post. > > > > There are a number of calming signals, sniffing, lip licking, looking away. > > > > I must reread the book, it was very interesting and I've forgotten some > > stuff, and I just sent for the videos. > > > > Vivian > > > > > > > > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > > interested in everything to do with science, > > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net > > > ********************************************** > Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD > Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists > College of Veterinary Medicine > University of Georgia > Athens, Georgia 30602 > scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu > > If a little knowledge is dangerous, > where is the man who has so much > as to be out of danger? > > T.H. Huxley > On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com" 22-APR-1999 10:35:25.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: calming signals In a message dated 4/22/99 7:46:38 AM, scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu writes: << Are these statements backed up with empirical testing, e.g. blinking at a dog results in a lowered heart rate, as measured by ECG or are they just Rugaas' personal opinions? How does Rugaas define "calming"? Sharon Crowell-Davis >> Hello, I believe it is referred to as cut off signals in wolf behavior studies. George Phillip Quinlan All About Dogs behavior & Training Center From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 22-APR-1999 10:40:05.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviour sequences Hi Nora!!! > > I think we have to be a little careful with generalizations. In a > changing environment, with few offspring and time for teaching > flexibility may be an asset but in other circumstances it may not. Genetics can be flexible also and there is probably a correlation with cortex convolutions (and amount)? If the genetics say, "If A, then B" and this is the total repertoire, the organism's ability to adapt to changing environments is very limited. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 22-APR-1999 10:45:22.28 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays Hi Rosemary! I would have to agree with Stefano - the meaning of eye signals (communication) probably differ intraspecific and contraspecific. My male cat, however, if I stare at him, will look away and do something like roll on his back. DebMcW > Date sent: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:11:11 +0100 (BST) > From: "R. Rodd" > Subject: Re: Peacocks and Displays > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > > Hey Jim! > > Let's not forget cats and their use of eye contact!!!! A cat can > > challenge another with a wide-eyed stare and the "challengee" can > > decline the proposition by looking away. > > > > DebMcW > > > Although apparently cats can also interpret eye contact as a friendship > sign - the Anthrozoology unit at Southampton published a paper > recently which showed that cats were attracted to people who looked at > them for longer periods of time. c.f. belladonna as a technological means > of generating a "super" eye-contact signal in humans. How do humans & cats > determine whether eye contact is a threat or a friendly signal? > > ---------------------------------------- > Rosemary Rodd > Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre > Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 22-APR-1999 11:09:31.52 To: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays and Eye contact At 10:31 AM 4/22/99 EST, Sharon Crowell-Davis wrote: >Are these statements backed up with empirical testing, e.g. blinking >at a dog results in a lowered heart rate, as measured by ECG or are >they just Rugaas' personal opinions? How does Rugaas define >"calming"? > >Sharon Crowell-Davis My understanding is that the dog is SENDING calming signals. And the other dog responds. Don't know about lowered heart rate, as this is a book designed for dog trainers. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 22-APR-1999 11:28:20.79 To: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays and Eye contact Hi Steve, I always appreciate reading your comments. I think that you brought up some very good points about the utility of the ethological approach of observing social behaviors. Empirical and observational research should go hand in hand (and I am always reminding myself that monitoring things like heart rate are still another form of observation, simply at a deeper physiological level). One of the things that your discussion brought to mind for me was that, while we have a good deal of research on agonistic and appeasement behavior, there is very little research, outside the primates, on reconciliation behavior, i.e. after an agonistic encounter has happened, the organisms still need to function as a social unit. So there is a social behavior of reconciliation. (I am thinking of the work here of Frans de Waal and others, and I apologize that I can't give specific references at the moment). I think that this is a very important issue to investigate for other species. There will always be conflict, but how do animals make up and continue to get along after that conflict? What are the mechanisms of reconciliation? I think that this is an essential question on many planes. For those involved in pet behavior counseling, we need to know how to reconcile after conflict within the inter-species family unit. And for those interested in sociobiology, isn't this the very heart of many human problems, the need to know how to reconcile after conflict? I am sorry if I am waxing philosophical here for a moment, but the news from around the world, from Kosovo and Colorado, has disturbed me greatly. How easily we start aggression and how little we know about how to go back to living with each other...... Janice At 12:13 PM 4/22/99 -0400, you wrote: >I'm not very interested in defending Rugaas' scheme and interpretation of >"calming signals" in dogs (which I didn't find very impressive or convincing), >but only to point out that calming, pacifying, or compromise signals (among >other >names given to these movements), are variations of cut-off signals--signals >that have long been recognized by ethologists to play an important role in >the modulation of social behavior > >The significance of cut-off signals has long been recognized by ethologists. >The concept was first described by Chance (1962). In addition to some of the >well-known social threat and appeasement displays exhibited by the dog, cut-off >signals are social modulatory movements employed to postpone or break off >agonistic conflict. These movements are often composed of escape intentions >(turning the head-body to the side or closing/lowering the eyes) or displacement > >activities (yawning). >(respectful snip) >Consequently, there are at least three ways in which agonistic behavior is >socially modulated: appeasement, compromise, and threat (ACT). > >Steve Lindsay >Canine Behavioral Services >Philadelphia, PA > > > >Sharon Crowell-Davis wrote: > >> Are these statements backed up with empirical testing, e.g. blinking >> at a dog results in a lowered heart rate, as measured by ECG or are >> they just Rugaas' personal opinions? How does Rugaas define >> "calming"? >> >> Sharon Crowell-Davis >> From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 22-APR-1999 11:54:45.58 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays and Eye contact The question was really, did Rugaas measure this effect, (again, whatever he means by "calming") or did he simply state his subjective interpretation? In the blinking example, did he videotape dogs blinking rapidly and get blink rate, then empirically measure some specific behavioral change that happened subsequently in the dog being blinked at, which he defined to be increasing calmness? (getting into the sequence analysis of another on-going discussion here) Did he use some other objective measure? Sharon Crowell-Davis > At 10:31 AM 4/22/99 EST, Sharon Crowell-Davis wrote: > >Are these statements backed up with empirical testing, e.g. blinking > >at a dog results in a lowered heart rate, as measured by ECG or are > >they just Rugaas' personal opinions? How does Rugaas define > >"calming"? > > > >Sharon Crowell-Davis > > My understanding is that the dog is SENDING calming signals. > And the other dog responds. > > Don't know about lowered heart rate, as this is a book designed for dog > trainers. > > Vivian > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > interested in everything to do with science, > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net > ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"Chaucer3@prodigy.net" "Shannon Hill" 22-APR-1999 11:56:58.65 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Discussion Group" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_OaPp3pFhPmwPd67/mXXSGg) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable >>>> AND, how many other "male" exaggerations have gains for the male beyond those of impressing females? Anyone know of any data?>>>>> Hi Jim, I just thought I'd throw this into the ring... Butterfly fish also have a false eye spot located just before their = caudal peduncle. The main theory I've heard for this trait remaining = extant is that the eye spot will confuse (rather than intimidate) the = predator, causing the predator to lunge for the tale. At this sudden = motion, the butterfly fish will dart, unharmed, in a 90 degree angle = away from the direction of the predator. To my knowledge, butterfly = fishes are not sexually dimorphic, so this answer only partly addresses = your question. Mail fiddler crabs have a hugely exaggerated cheliped used in mate = attraction. But this cheliped is also used in territorial disputes and = burrowing. The cost is that fiddler crabs are detritus feeders and = males can only use their smaller claw to pick organic matter from the = sediment (while females almost continuously use both). This can be a = major disadvantage, depending on the height and duration of the high = tides, as fiddler crabs only feed at low tide. =20 Proboscis monkeys have enlarged noses for mate attraction. Does anyone = know of any other functions an exaggerated proboscis might serve = (especially since proboscis monkeys have few predators other than man)? = I'm also curious about giantism occurring in only males (for example in = amphipods). This is usually a deep sea phenomenon, so I wonder what = purpose giantism in a lightless environment (except for bioluminescence) = would serve in only the males of a given species. Thanks, Shannon Hill Graduate Student East Tennessee State University --Boundary_(ID_OaPp3pFhPmwPd67/mXXSGg) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
>>>>
AND, how many = other=20 "male" exaggerations have gains for the male beyond
those = of=20 impressing females?

Anyone know of any=20 data?>>>>> 
 
Hi Jim,
 
I just thought I'd throw this into = the=20 ring...
 
Butterfly fish also have a false eye spot located = just before=20 their caudal peduncle.  The main theory I've heard for this trait = remaining=20 extant is that the eye spot will confuse (rather than intimidate) the = predator,=20 causing the predator to lunge for the tale.  At this sudden motion, = the=20 butterfly fish will dart, unharmed, in a 90 degree angle away from the = direction=20 of the predator.  To my knowledge, butterfly fishes are not = sexually=20 dimorphic, so this answer only partly addresses your = question.
 
Mail fiddler crabs have a hugely exaggerated = cheliped used in=20 mate attraction.  But this cheliped is also used in territorial = disputes=20 and burrowing.  The cost is that fiddler crabs are detritus feeders = and=20 males can only use their smaller claw to pick organic matter from the = sediment=20 (while females almost continuously use = both). =20 This can be a major disadvantage, depending on the height and duration = of the=20 high tides, as fiddler crabs only feed at low tide. 
 
Proboscis monkeys have = enlarged=20 noses for mate attraction.  Does anyone know of any other functions = an=20 exaggerated proboscis might serve (especially since proboscis monkeys = have few=20 predators other than man)?  I'm also curious about giantism = occurring in=20 only males (for example in amphipods).  This is usually a deep sea=20 phenomenon, so I wonder what purpose giantism in a lightless environment = (except=20 for bioluminescence) would serve in only the males of a given=20 species.
 
Thanks,
 
Shannon Hill
Graduate Student 
East Tennessee State=20 University 
--Boundary_(ID_OaPp3pFhPmwPd67/mXXSGg)-- From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" 22-APR-1999 12:22:29.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: New(ish) topic: behaviour sequences perhaps i missed the thrust of the the original question, as posed in the following paragraph, where steve wrote: >Basically, what I want people to think about is: do genetically encoded algorythms exist >which govern the sequencing of certain behaviours? and if so, what types of behaviour and >at what level do the genes exert their control? my initial reponse was to remember the ohsoelegant work of Rothenbuhler (1964, Animal Behaviour, 12:578-583 + the subsequent jones+rothenbuhler paper, same journal) regarding the genetics of nest cleaning in honey bees. god, i hate being the historian in the group... : ) btw -- according to my numerical reference classification system, the rothenbuhler papers were the 128th and 129th in my files.... in the 'olden' days, i could tell you the exact number and file drawer of any reference in my 'collection'. about 4 years ago we surpassed 2500 reprints and i couldn't pick a single reference out of the files! you might suspect a stroke, or, perhaps late onset insanity, but i suspect this event conformed to much early research in memory. a few years ago i reorganized my refs into sets of topical files, and i can now place any reference in a given file, but not the sequential number! i'll report what happens when the topical list exceeds 2500.. : ) if i don't succumb to the dread ref2k bug... cheers, g From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 22-APR-1999 14:17:10.32 To: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays and Eye contact At 01:39 PM 4/22/99 EST, Sharon Crowell-Davis wrote: >The question was really, did Rugaas measure this effect, (again, >whatever he means by "calming") or did he simply state his >subjective interpretation? In the blinking example, did >he videotape dogs blinking rapidly and get blink rate, then >empirically measure some specific behavioral change that happened >subsequently in the dog being blinked at, which he defined to be >increasing calmness? (getting into the sequence analysis of another >on-going discussion here) Did he use some other objective measure? > >Sharon Crowell-Davis Not in the book. However, I've tried some of her so called calming signals and I believe that I get calming behavior. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 23-APR-1999 16:40:59.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Anyone have John Webster's e-mail address? Dear All, Does anyone know of an e-mail address for John Webster in the Dept. of Veterinary Science, The University of Bristol? I wold like to contact him via e-mail and have not been able to find an address. Any help you could offer would be appreciated. Sincerely, Joe Stookey From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 23-APR-1999 17:09:38.50 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays Reply to message from c.moons@planetinternet.be of Thu, 22 Apr > > > >"Although apparently cats can also interpret eye contact as a friendship >sign - the Anthrozoology unit at Southampton published a paper >recently which showed that cats were attracted to people who looked at >them for longer periods of time. c.f. belladonna as a technological means >of generating a "super" eye-contact signal in humans. How do humans & cats >determine whether eye contact is a threat or a friendly signal?" Almost certainly by context and associated body language; e.g. If the lights are low, the music soft, and the touch is warm, a long strong gaze from widely dilated pupils sends quite a different message than a strong gaze from a large man who has just knocked your door down and who has an ax in his hand. > > >Isn't it true that if cats narrow their eyes when looking at a human (or >perhaps a conspecific animal) it's a sign of friendliness/trust? > In my experience this is quite reliably true. My son, a very skilled cat-person, tells a story where he was at a gathering where the host had a new cat. So just as an exercise all sat on the floor in a circle with the idea of determining who was the best at attracting this cat. The other guests all stared at the cat, leaned toward the cat, and made some sort of entreating vocalization. My son won the contest by slumping, lowering his lids to half mast, and looking just to the side of the new cat. Clearly, to the cat, he was the most cat-like and least threatening of the group, and, of course, the one to go to. >Just something I heard.... > >Christel > > >---------------------------------------- >Rosemary Rodd >Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre >Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 > > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 23-APR-1999 17:15:44.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays and Eye contact Reply to message from bregman@interactive.net of Thu, 22 Apr > >> ---------------------------------------- >>Rosemary Rodd > Probably the same way that dogs do, by the rest of the face, body, etc. > >In dogs, for example, excessive blinking is a calming signal. Calming? Or wimpy? In humans at least, blinking is well established as a submissive gesture; as in "Jeff blinked first." Thus, blinking might well be misinterpreted as calming only because the one who blinks ceases to be any threat. > >Ref: Turid Rugaas > >Vivian > > >Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > interested in everything to do with science, > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 23-APR-1999 19:36:26.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Anyone have John Webster's e-mail address? At 04:36 PM 4/23/99 -0600, you wrote: >Dear All, > >Does anyone know of an e-mail address for John Webster in the Dept. of >Veterinary Science, The University of Bristol? I wold like to contact him >via e-mail and have not been able to find an address. Any help you could >offer would be appreciated. > >Sincerely, > >Joe Stookey Have you tried searching the web the U of B, Dept of Vet Science?? If the school has a web site, they would have his email address. Or at least you could email the school and ask. Just a thought. I do not know John Webster, or the University of Bristol. Great Britian?? Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no" "Bjarne O. Braastad" 26-APR-1999 04:43:55.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE'99 Lillehammer - registration reminder Dear all, I would like to remind all participants at ISAE'99 that the deadline for the lowest registration fee is 1st May, and that all presenters of oral or poster contributions must register at least before 1st June (if not, their contribution will be deleted from the proceedings and oral ones will be replaced by another). Please don't forget to sign the form. It is OK to send bank transfer for several persons as a single payment.If so, please indicate this on the Registration Form and don't forget to instruct the bank to include the names of the persons with the payment. Some persons include the Registration Form with their revised abstract to me. Please indicate if this is only a copy and that the original was sent to TS Forum (address on back of the Registration Form). For information, see http://org.nlh.no/isae99. Yours, Bjarne O. Braastad ******************************************************************* Dr. Bjarne O. Braastad, Assoc. Prof. of Ethology, Chairman of the Organising Committee 33rd International Congress of the ISAE (International Society for Applied Ethology), 17-21 August 1999, Lillehammer, Norway Address: Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: isae99@ihf.nlh.no or bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 internet: http://org.nlh.no/isae99 ********************************************************************* From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 26-APR-1999 23:26:28.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays and Eye contact D.B. Cameron wrote: >In dogs, for example, excessive blinking is a calming signal. > Calming? Or wimpy? In humans at least, blinking is well established > as a submissive gesture; as in "Jeff blinked first." Thus, blinking > might well be misinterpreted as calming only because the one who blinks > ceases to be any threat. Excessive blinking (on my part) leads to copycat behavior in my dogs. Keep it up - and I typically get big yawns and even nodding off...("You are getting very, v-e-r-y s-l-e-e-p-y") Isn't mutual sleepiness the ulimate calming factor? Donna Reynolds From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 27-APR-1999 07:50:31.45 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays and Eye contact What an interesting thread of thought this has been. Thank you, Donna, for the latest post. I keep thinking about the versatility of behavior and wonder if, depending on context, it my serve different purposes. For example, steady eye contact from a herding dog is unsettling to livestock whereas broken eye contact leads to continued grazing--calm behavior. Last week a cat took two wethers from one of my corrals. It was shortly after dark, and the sheep had bedded down for the night. I'm imagining a scene dominated by panic. Might the predator's blinking arrest flight behavior for brief moments allowing a successful kill? Just thinking (and entering the barn very carefully this week). Peggy At 10:21 PM 4/26/99 -0700, Donna Reynolds wrote: > > >D.B. Cameron wrote: >>In dogs, for example, excessive blinking is a calming signal. > >> Calming? Or wimpy? In humans at least, blinking is well established >> as a submissive gesture; as in "Jeff blinked first." Thus, blinking >> might well be misinterpreted as calming only because the one who blinks >> ceases to be any threat. > >Excessive blinking (on my part) leads to copycat behavior in my dogs. >Keep it up - and I typically get big yawns and even nodding off...("You are >getting very, v-e-r-y s-l-e-e-p-y") >Isn't mutual sleepiness the ulimate calming factor? > >Donna Reynolds > > Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) PO Box 844 Arlee MT 59821-0844 USA 406-726-3342 arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 27-APR-1999 15:29:45.68 To: IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"guavaberry@earthlink.net" "Karen Ellis", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: IN%"rgj999@yahoo.com" "Russ Gardner, MD", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve" Subj: Columbine: Bloody Rocky Mountain Flower The following is posted at http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary. You are welcome to forward it; please do so in its entirety. Thank you. Jim Brody =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Columbine: Bloody Rocky Mountain Flower 4/27/99 James Brody Events such as last week's killings in a Colorado high school have happen= ed before and seem to be part of our nature, shared by other species; CNN la= st night showed pictures of our helicopters arriving at Aviano for raids in Kosovo while the electronic text at the bottom still gave news about Columbine. There is no difference. We are all potential killers but we vary in our targets, methods, and the circumstances that we do so. We ne= ed to identify, understand, and respect those circumstances while breaking apart their synchrony. My position is that there is no new mystery or action that led 2 adolescents to kill 12 peers and a teacher. I provide my own view of th= e "causes" that drew those same 2 adolescents into plans for killing 500 people and crashing a plane into NYC, a month after 4 of them in trench coats tried to purchase a machine gun. My thoughts are written from an evolutionary stance and will irritate some of you; however, I love humani= ty as well as nature and would be lacking in conscience to hide from debate = on these vital matters. BAND-AIDS Temporarily hire security officers and keep them in public schools of mor= e than 1000 students. Search lockers. Check students for weapons. Disper= se loiterers just as is done in shopping malls. Adopt school uniforms and dress policies. STEPS FOR THE LONGER TERM Disperse large public schools --- The private schools movement will be successful so long as each of them stays relatively small and excludes th= e nonresponders. Public schools and state institutions can do neither and= should be dispersed. Our sorry experience with large state institutions was that adding staff simply built niches for staff --- meetings, records= , notes, promotions and performance reviews --- but did NOT increase client/staff interaction whether you hired aides or psychologists. Clien= ts continued to bite, beat, and sometimes rape other clients. = I suggest that we LIMIT PUBLIC SCHOOL ENROLLMENT TO 300 STUDENTS at any o= ne site, have free choice enrollment at any school that has an opening, let each school have a program specialty, and duplicate programs that fill to= capacity. Incidentally, the ceiling of 300 is not arbitrary. There is reasonable evidence that our minds are evolved to handle about 150 active= social contacts and we organize our Rolodexes, hospital, and military structures in chunks that approximate that number. We should use it explicitly as a benchmark for our public schools just as parents instinctively do when choosing a private school. Interesting, that when= school is no longer "free," a different set of more relevant standards co= me to play and our current mess with public education becomes self-correctin= g! Alternative educational careers --- our "children" at age 13 are many way= s adult in regard to motor skills for hunting, killing, and caring for each= other. However, their social judgment may be limited until age 35! Wis= e cultures pull children into adult supervision and duties, with adult consequences, far sooner than we do. Adolescents need options and will create their own if we don't make space for them doing useful things that= are consistent with their talents. Generally, if people are in settings= that support their talents or are allowed to construct such settings, we care for them, improve them, and learn from them. Sitting at desks for 1= 2 years is NOT such a niche for many children and adolescents; making all o= f them do so is superstitious and costly. Parent Training --- Our public schools and churches are empty during summers and evenings; use them as sites to train parents in groups of 20,= offer a course for 5 evenings that correspond to the child's developmenta= l age. Cover child development, teaching, and discipline but reduce emphas= is on the traditional "feel good" homilies that don't equip parents to deal with the little raptors they sometimes hatch. For example, the "child's room" is really the "parents'" room and the child uses it until moving on= . = Responsibilities come before rewards. There are NO entitlements. Doing otherwise simply feeds grandiosity and not cooperation. Giving a 10 year= old choices in large decisions is lunatic; you are NOT "teaching him to reason" but encouraging him to argue. Being conciliatory with some children does not teach mercy but magnifies selfishness. = Church Synagogue --- parents should make 'em go! People that are spiritually driven will meet those needs on the internet even without a God, once they did it through religious fervor. While religious monopoli= es lead to wars, we don't have a religious monopoly but a patchwork of competing faiths. Bless diversity! Religion usually helps to stabilize things under these conditions. PRELUDES TO RAIDS 1) The chimp raid on Columbine High School was exactly that, a "chimp rai= d" as defined by Richard Wrangham in "Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of= Human Violence." Wrangham distinguishes raids from "battles": a raid is premeditated, conducted by a small group and against a specific target under surprise conditions and with little risk to the perpetrators. Rai= ds and not wars and battles, according to Wrangham, are the leading scenario= for chimps killing each other and for humans' killing other humans and ar= e a prominent feature of every human culture now and through recorded human= history. = A high school acquaintance had her throat slashed and her unborn child slain nearly 30 years ago as the outcome from a raid; I believe her destroyer wanted to kill all of us symbolically while making himself famous. Correspondingly, Wrangham has some slides of an ambushed male chimp whose larynx and testicles were ripped free and tossed aside. Huma= n males do similar things and so do human females but usually more symbolically than the males. "Oh, he's a loser, you don't want to be seen= with him." or "I kicked him in the balls." Girls giggle or tell stories and boys kick --- both of them act strategically and with loss to the target in regard to social standing and finding partners to have children= . = Thus, boys and girls deliver the same premeditated consequence but one se= x chooses fast, painful results and the other chooses more delayed techniqu= es that are accomplished with gossip and shunning. In either case, "I'm killing you AND I'm killing your baby." The strikes in Denver may have been not only towards classmates but also against the parents of those killed. 2) The traits that lead to killing are, in smaller intensities, major assets. Geoff Miller (1998, 1999) discusses "fitness" in terms of liveliness, higher intelligence and vocabulary, greater symmetry, and greater attractiveness to the opposite sex. These traits can appear ear= ly (sometimes by age 3) and are often seen in kids whose parents have a similar nature. They include unusually intense interest in building alliances, monitoring resources (knowing who can stay out late, who can u= se the phone or auto), commandeering resources (badgering mom or dad for use= of the telephone or the family auto), early (some of them by 3rd grade) sexual interest and activity, and lessened need for sleep. Children and adults with these traits are usually moving, whether in sports or hanging= on street corners. If they are talented in addition to being stubborn, w= e eventually call them boss, General, Prime Minister, President, or Wealthy= Parent. If their talents are inconsistent with their niche, then we call= them misfits, no good, or prisoner. The problem with "fitness" is that germs, genes, mom's womb, hormonal tuning, and accidents do not produce ideal outcomes. Thus, it is possibl= e to have great determination and Will to Power but be socially inept. (It= is also possible to have the determination and good word flow but be unusually vulnerable to seasonal changes or to social or economic reversals. We label such people as "manic" or "bipolar disorder." = Unfortunately for the social learning advocates and for most social interventions, UNDER AVERAGE CONDITIONS, the outcomes for such traits appear to be heavily biased by genetic foundations. Abusive kids have abusive parents even if they never saw each other and it has nothing to d= o with being bullied.) Dennis Cantwell and others noticed the relationship between language deficits and increased risk of antisocial behavior. Suppose you have a great lust for women and influence but miss the word flow and physical assets that make them accessible? Suppose that you have the word flow b= ut your ambition exceeds normal expectations to the degree that you are considered bizarre. Or suppose that you view yourself as so "special" th= at your outcomes do not come up to your expectations? We can label you "dysthymic" because you are miserable for years but we also need to consider you "manic" because of your grandiosity, that you are impervious= to consequences, that the world is unfair because it sees you as bizarre rather than gifted. Our society has affirmatively but unwittingly addressed this problem by creating large schools where 1000-3000 hominids of mating age are pooled into one building. The kinds of traits to the extremes that I describe a= re part of our make up but their intensity and their sensitivity of reaction= s are fortunately less common. Merging large groups of students make it possible for the less frequent varieties to find partners equally as intense, labile, moody, and potentially destructive. = "Friends" and alliances become possible and groups of the outliers hang i= n diners at night instead of doing homework. They put on combat uniforms o= f tattoos, pierced body parts, and postered shirts and jackets and flock in= groups, enjoying the anxious glances and extra space that they get from more conservative, older people. They also get into tribal ceremonies an= d tribal music that are their own and that affirm their preexisting scorn f= or our more average culture and about life and values. Marilyn Manson and h= is audience are coevolved products; each defines the other. Ironically, in the old days when there were fewer of us and now in many simpler cultures, the Littleton killers would have been slain by the socially dominant or would have been driven out to find a different place= . = Kids still run away from home even though we moderns oddly create the chance to leave town psychologically by making a large public school for 1500 mating, quarreling hominids. Any "misfit" can likely find someone w= ho matches him or her and can do so without jumping a freight or hiking over= a mountain pass. The new culture still has to travel through hostile territory --- defined by jocks, metal heads, or druggies --- but shorter distances in the school halls every day. 3) Along these lines, the two males in Littleton very likely qualified f= or a diagnosis of bipolar disorder, an exaggeration of the basic traits that= usually lead, in combination with special talents, to economic success. = However, the intense anger, terrorist strategies, and grandiose plans to high jack a plane and crash into New York were far beyond the average range. The attempt to wear trench coat uniforms while buying a machine g= un reveals the killers' grandiose outlooks. = Medication works --- lithium, depakote, tegretol, risperidone --- in some= amount for most of these cases and life is usually better, even from the standpoint of the person taking it. Unfortunately, the very traits --- racing thoughts, intense determination, lessened need for sleep, and a heightened sense of being immune from ordinary rules --- that make succes= s or violence more likely are nearly always associated with an almost religious opposition to admitting a flaw and taking medicine. If WE are = so RIGHT, then rules and constraints must be WRONG or UNFAIR. Generally wives, mothers, lawyers, accountants, and judges --- annoyed and exhauste= d with financial and behavioral excesses --- eventually trap grandiose bullies. Still, medication will be a tough sell even if the client is already abusive and violent and it will be tough to keep them taking it. 4) Large schools LOOK good! Administrators and parents like them because= we like all BIG NEW things and for the same reasons that a sea gull will try to hatch a grapefruit while ignoring her own eggs. We all go, probably because of the ways our eyes and minds are wired, for the newer,= the slightly larger, the more colorful whether in autos, homes, or school= buildings. The kids have green hair, the principal gets a larger office.= = The same mechanisms direct kids, politicians, and school boards. Natural history tells us about the homeostatic costs that place limits on= the size of giraffe necks and deer antlers. Homeostatic costs for human= excess eventually include our moral structures but we don't notice the erosion until long after it has happened. = "Nature" shapes nearly every creature in the virtues of reciprocity: "Be nice until your contact as been nasty twice. Then be nasty until they ar= e nice again." This strategy of "generous tit for tat" wins in computer games and appears in our rules for social exchanges. Our folk mores say,= "once is a mistake, twice is a fool." Or, "Three strikes and you're out.= " = HOWEVER THESE RULES WORK BEST WHEN THERE ARE RECURRING SOCIAL CONTACTS. = More intermittent contacts between people in larger groups make lying harder to detect and retribution harder to deliver. "Cheater tactics" become the winning style. That is, if you will see a person only once an= d your neighbors won't find out, then take the pigeon for all that she has.= = Phone bank workers and car salesmen often use this tactic. So do our lar= ge school organizations. Despite formal ideals, teachers also have a greater investment in their relationships with each other than with any average student. Teachers invest in the troublesome and the gifted but 85% of the students can be anonymous for 4 years, given over to their peers for direction, encouragement, and sanctions. From the teacher's standpoint, there is always one more student to help, coach, or scold so there is no point investing massively in any single average one before passing them on. There is a corresponding strategy on the part of students. Again, wild creatures in new settings with great resources adopt a "use it up fast" tactic. We did it when settling the west, we do it with the opening of a= new store or a sale. Likewise, children will often see parents as an infinite resource and parents will ratify that view. The absence of limi= ts and the absence of consequences exaggerate grandiosity and selfishness no= matter how mature the mind. = 5) Consequences are nearly always effective but must be applied skillfull= y. Our culture depends on certain basic cooperation --- of taking turns, standing in lines, and not shooting each other. I know individuals who fought, lied, and destroyed property when in elementary and high school. = They were heroes while in Special Forces or the SEALs. They were in trouble as soon as they returned to civilian life. The research is still out and may never be done. I suspect that the past= 2 decades of permissive parenting styles aggravate tendencies towards grandiosity, a sense of immunity to consequences. Time out works for nearly every kid and most adolescents. By whatever method, children must= know --- and by means other than lectures --- that their rights end at another's skin or property line. Moms should not rescue children from a competent teacher or vice principal or a teen from the police. Parents wh= o sanction underage drinking parties in their home should be fined and jailed. 6) Surfing the Net appears to give the same dopamine hits to some minds a= s would throwing a rock or pulling a trigger; certainly video games have be= en shown to do so. There are things to see, arguments and other contests to= win, conspiracies to build, and women to meet. For example, KYW recently= transmitted a factoid that the majority of college students use the net f= or information about weapons, pornography, and drugs. Things are not likely= to be different for the 13 year olds who, in the old days, formed their o= wn hierarchies and hunting groups. Odd or possibly inevitable, that a gift = of our electronics is a reinstatement of our evolutionary heritage. There's another aspect to the Net. People who routinely are up late may = be less stable, sometimes because they are a little manic and sometimes because they are sleep deprived. There is further research that isolatio= n is strongly associated with depression, anxiety, psychosis, and suicide. = No one has shown yet the effects of spending hours in an electronic world= associating with words but without human affect, and spending the most ti= me with displays of words that agree with your own thoughts. The outcome is= likely to be two skewed individuals that help each other to become crazie= r even if they are on opposite sides of the globe. But, there are no data.= I personally go to movies (comedies and love stories) and watch people in= malls in order to stabilize myself --- will the people around me understa= nd my thoughts and put them to work? A couple of hours of normal human contact seems to move my priorities back towards real events and not the electronic displays on home pages that compete with each other to punch every one of my evolved territorial, reproductive, or acquisitive buttons= . = I also go to bed at 11 PM! 7) Research on twins is strongly consistent with the idea that we build o= ur own niches according to our own preferences but mom's lectures are not ou= r compass. We appear to choose our friends, our music, and our outcomes fr= om moment to moment, like a marble dropping through a vertical maze, each tu= rn a momentary opportunity that "feels good" and reinforces our sense of fre= e will. A "free society" allows each of us to pursue our "nature" and none= of us want to give up that fun! However, we will sometimes have outcomes= that temporarily or permanently scare us and may even kill some of us if = we stand around and watch our peers do their natural thing. 8) Niches that support our success automatically raise our self esteem a= nd let us experience the stereophonic thrills of happiness and competence. = Success and competence usually lead naturally to confidence and friends. = = Multiple options need to exist for school and our assessments need to abandon the "we are all the same" myth; it hurts anyone who knows that he= is not the same but feels that he is the only one that is different. Pas= t lives and cultures let us migrate under such conditions and many of our kids still load their van and move the L.A. Trap the kid without outcom= es that are productive for his or her very specific needs --- each of us IS unique and pursues unique agendas --- and you will have trouble every tim= e! 9) Displays: Costumes, nose rings, colored hair are serious statements that repel people who, like me, are a bit timid or a bit older. The displays also attract others who have similar beliefs. All perfectly natural outcomes from perfectly natural strategies and executed by ducks = as well as little hominids. Likewise for music, slogans, language habits -= -- all ways to put up barriers, to recruit allies, and to inflate your self view. Take them seriously, they are not a passing fad and the attitudes and moods they signal may be lifetime characteristics even if the carrier= later appears to blend with everyone else. CONCLUSION There are currently too many of us and our lives too cluttered and our future resources --- food, and fuel --- too lean to let us to continue as= we are. Even now, we don't allow for a smooth egress of the nonconformists and the mad who would have migrated --- a.k.a., dropping school --- to different settings in the past. Our futures could be symbolized by Wrangham's picture of a shiny pearl chimpanzee testicle wit= h blue veins lying in African grass and by his photo of a throat torn open.= = Dispersal will cost some money but it could also maintain a peaceful diversity at no cost in educational quality. From: IN%"Kerstin.Malm@djsjh.slu.se" "Kerstin Malm" 28-APR-1999 01:05:47.67 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Presentation and question Hi everybody! I have earlier been a participant of this network, but it was 2-3 years ago. I finished my PhD in ethology some years ago, with the thesis "Behaviour of parents and offspring in two canids". My special interest is dog behaviour, especially behaviour problems. I’m also interested in discussions of welfare and ethics. I have a question at once this time. I’m looking for scientific literature on dogs’ reactions to loud noise, like shots and fire-works. I’m asked to write a report, where I will try to describe this reaction and explain if, why and how loud noise like these can be harmful to pet animals (especially dogs). I should also try to estimate the extent of this problem in Sweden today and relate it to a discussion of welfare. Therefore, I’m very happy for all suggestions about good articles on the subject or persons that I should contact with these questions. I would be grateful for any help! Kerstin Malm #+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+# Kerstin Malm PhD in Ethology Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences Animal Hospital i Skara P.O.Box 234 S-532 23 SKARA Sweden Telephone: +46-511-67181 Fax: +46-511-67134, 67191 E-mail: Kerstin.Malm@djsjh.slu.se +#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+# From: IN%"F.Toates@open.ac.uk" 28-APR-1999 04:22:59.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: the Denver shootings Dear All, First let me say how much I welcome James Brody's message. I think that it is vitally important that as ethologists and psychologists, we engage in current social problems. We must have something useful to say. I would remind people of the message of the great American psychologist B.F.Skinner, who saw the role of psychology as being the addressing of such social ills in terms of the nature of reinforcers that society offers. He has been much maligned and misinterpreted and, though I would not subscribe to all of the Skinnerian doctrine, I believe that on such things as the causes of violence he was absolutely right. Best wishes, Fred From: IN%"rayenna_rhys@flad.com" "Rayenna Rhys" 28-APR-1999 09:47:37.14 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group" CC: Subj: Columbine/Brody E-Mail --Boundary_(ID_BGiQy+uMs0oCuk/I5RnSaw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am the reference librarian who e-mailed in a while ago about dog barking (I am still working on it and will get back to everyone with "results" and a list of pubs a bit later), so I am not a scientist of any sort and am offering my comments as one of those infamous "lay people" who also happens to be a parent of two (one currently a teenager). I found Brody's e-mail thought provoking, with a number of good, concrete suggestions for things "we can do." Perhaps this sort of discussion and this kind of information is run-of-the-mill for the members of this group, but for us "lay people" it is original, unusual, and hope filled. We are inundated with talking heads who seem (to me at least) to know nothing, pontificating for endless hours about why some kids become "monsters," usually to no fruitful end. The reason I am e-mailing everyone is that having the ideas that Brody wrote about circulated, brought up, discussed among the general public would, I think, be vastly helpful. There is no one (that I can see) leading such discussions who has any sense about the causes of such behavior (unless it is just to assign it to Evil or the Devil or Bad Parenting--although no one seems able to say, specifically, what the parents did wrong). This just leads us all to wring our hands and feel at sixes and nines over what to do. I would like to timidly suggest (timidly in the hopes that no one bites my head off) that it is precisely people like the members of this discussion group (or at least some of you), who need to be speaking up and talking to the public. I can't imagine wanting to do this; the thought of trying to talk to people in the media and not having them mess up, misunderstand, misinterpret and/or reduce one's ideas to drivel is hard to imagine. Still, how about tackling it for the greater good? There's a lot at stake here. --Boundary_(ID_BGiQy+uMs0oCuk/I5RnSaw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am the reference librarian who e-mailed in a while ago about dog barking (I am still working on it and will get back to everyone with "results" and a list of pubs a bit later), so I am not a scientist of any sort and am offering my comments as one of those infamous "lay people" who also happens to be a parent of two (one currently a teenager).

I found Brody's e-mail thought provoking, with a number of good, concrete suggestions for things "we can do."  Perhaps this sort of discussion and this kind of information is run-of-the-mill for the members of this group, but for us "lay people" it is original, unusual, and hope filled.  We are inundated with talking heads who seem (to me at least) to know nothing, pontificating for endless hours about why some kids become "monsters," usually to no fruitful end.

The reason I am e-mailing everyone is that having the ideas that Brody wrote about circulated, brought up, discussed among the general public would, I think, be vastly helpful.  There is no one (that I can see) leading such discussions who has any sense about the causes of such behavior (unless it is  just to assign it to Evil or the Devil or Bad Parenting--although no one seems able to say, specifically, what the parents did wrong).  This just leads us all to wring our hands and feel at sixes and nines over what to do.  I would like to timidly suggest (timidly in the hopes that no one bites my head off) that it is precisely people like the members of this discussion group (or at least some of you), who need to be speaking up and talking to the public.  I can't imagine wanting to do this; the thought of trying to talk to people in the media and not having them mess up, misunderstand, misinterpret and/or reduce one's ideas to drivel is hard to imagine.  Still, how about tackling it for the greater good?  There's a lot at stake here.
 
  --Boundary_(ID_BGiQy+uMs0oCuk/I5RnSaw)-- From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 28-APR-1999 11:17:21.37 To: IN%"rayenna_rhys@flad.com" "Rayenna Rhys" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group" Subj: Columbine/Brody E-Mail Rayenna, Thanks for the encouragement. I omitted AE from some further thoughts. = Now attached and again, thanks for your kind words. Jim Brody =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Ghost busters (also posted at http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary) James Brody April 28, 1999 This IS about evolution. Pennhurst was a residential facility for 1500 mentally retarded adults, operated by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania when I landed a job there in= 1973. She was also an old whore with bad breath who charged a lot of money. The residents were beaten by other residents ad sometimes by staf= f. Staff often sat and gossiped instead of knowing where clients were or what they were doing. = There was a decade of trying to clean her up during the next decade of litigation. Federal surveyors stimulated the growth of the records syste= m from single empty manila folders to twin binders on each client. Uniform= s vanished, the Nursing Department noisily sank, lots of professionals came= aboard, buildings were renovated and abuse continued even while homeostat= ic costs went up. The diseased madam was retired in about 1986 after the clients had been dispersed to small (n =3D 4-8 per house) community facilities, workshops = grew for more meaningful daily activity and some of the grand promises about "habilitation" quietly vanished. Pennhurst "made it" to the United States Supreme Court; the Commonwealth defended the case only to the extent needed to avoid personal damage assessments against staff and against itself. Pennhurst was costing too much and closure was cheaper and more humane. Homeostatic costs won. The suits were started by litigious, angry parents and eventually merged into a class action; the parents wanted better outcomes for their childre= n and the formal complaints included violations of the Due Process and Equa= l Protection Clauses of United States Constitution. = 1) Each resident was at Pennhurst involuntarily, despite the paperwork, because Pennhurst was their only available placement. = 2) They were also at significant risk during their stay. 3) There was no compensatory, individualized, habilitative program in exchange for the client's loss of freedom and exposure to risk. Ancillary issues were: 1) The increased documentation as demanded by Federal Long Term Care Surveyors demonstrated client needs and also demonstrated that Pennhurst wasn't meeting them. (Achievement scores anyone?) The habilitative programs were paper shams, and inevitably would be, in a congregate setting. 2) Increased staff ratios had no effect on client care or progress and it= was apparent that large group placements are inherently ineffective. These are still civil rights violations, prosecutable by the United Stat= es Department of Justice. Further, civil rights violations have NO immunity= from personal damages and NO statute of limitations. There are ghosts in this note and you should know them. = -- People used to die at Pennhurst where the empty buildings and tunnels still draw rats and rumored drug addicts and souvenir hunters. -- My former boss, James C. Hirst, Ph.D., was Chief Psychologist and a ke= y instigator of the suit and spent several years in administrative coventry= for whatever his complex motives. He also committed suicide in a bout of= depression after Pennhurst closed. = -- There are the ghosts of children killed at Columbine. -- Finally, there are the future ghosts of living children, ghosts of the= adults that might have been had their niches offered different choices fo= r growth. The issues for public education are identical to those of Pennhurst. The= y involve the lack of protection from harm, involuntary commitment to 4 years' of irrelevant activity for many, and the lack of a free, appropria= te public education --- a right thought to have been guaranteed by Public La= w 94-142, itself a phoenix from Pennhurst and the Consent Agreement between= the Pennsylvania Association for Retarded Citizens and the Commonwealth, signed decades before. = School officials will sometimes blame 94-142 --- the very law they often violate --- and their inability to expel disruptive students for the harm= done to other students. However, it appears: -- Schools try primarily to expel students who are disruptive to teachers= and disruptions to other students are tolerated. (It was that way at Pennhurst.) = -- They will point to the expensive chem lab or computer support but neglect the absence and impossibility of social education in the halls or= the mismatch between niche and aptitudes that exists for many students. = (The workshop at Pennhurst WAS pretty good.) = -- After all, the top 5% of students do pretty well, why close the place?= (And the ghosts? What of them?) -- "We have so much expertise in this one place that amateurs could never= match." (A 10 yo can work the internet! The community alternatives to Pennhurst were staffed by a large element of college students who worked for lots less money and followed their instincts but did a better job. = -- "We LOVE teaching." (Every Pennhurst staff member had a similar nurturance in their first weeks of employment but immediately discovered their true choice --- take the money and give up their ideals to work in = an impossible situation or leave. Many left; many stayed because they were paid more than they could earn elsewhere.) -- The "union" will raise hell. (It did.) Somebody drop the dime. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values" John Price MD, Russ Gardner MD, John Fentress PhD, James Brody PhD 20th CAPE COD! Institute 7/19-23/1999 The course is a symbiosis of Price, Gardner, Fentress and memes assembled= from Darwin, Kauffman, Barkley, & Plomin, stirred but not shaken. 15 CME/CEU $455/$300 grad students & interns 610-948-5344 (info) 718-430-2307 (regist) www.cape.org/1999/price.html Paul MacLean Festschrift BOSTON! 7/16-17/99 23 speakers (approx) including Karl Pribram contact Russ Gardner, rgj999@yahoo.com for details From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 28-APR-1999 11:22:54.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Jim Brody's Rocky Mountain Fever in Trenchcoats Hi Jim! I just finished revelling in your dissertation. Great delivery on some poignant and relevant points. Specifically, I would like to support your ideas on parenting and society. Neither of these issues are inseparable from the other or from factors like spirituality. I think it is important to NOT forget that we have many large institutions (academic or otherwise) that are not killing fields. We have many people in all age groups who are not killers. We live with others who care, are gracious and are generous without force. I see this as a point to which we have evolved and will continue to evolve. A couple of hundred years ago, killing conspecifics was something necessary to survive. Now, it is horrific, illegal and immoral. We have a long way to go. Few see, as you do, the irony in permitting killing by bombs from a plane but not from a shotgun while wearing a trenchcoat. Yet, we also have police forces who are subjected to examination if they fire their weapon. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 28-APR-1999 11:41:14.14 To: IN%"F.Toates@open.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: the Denver shootings At 11:17 AM 4/28/99 +0100, you wrote: >Dear All, > >First let me say how much I welcome James Brody's message. I think that it >is vitally important that as ethologists and psychologists, we engage in >current social problems. We must have something useful to say. > >I would remind people of the message of the great American psychologist >B.F.Skinner, who saw the role of psychology as being the addressing of such >social ills in terms of the nature of reinforcers that society offers. He >has been much maligned and misinterpreted and, though I would not subscribe >to all of the Skinnerian doctrine, I believe that on such things as the >causes of violence he was absolutely right. > >Best wishes, > >Fred This brings up something that I would also add to Jim's excellent analysis and that is the role of learning violence, or rather, the desensitization to our normal brakes to violence. I do not have references for this, but I heard that during WWII, there was a problem in the military with getting soldiers to fire weapons on each other. It seems that normal human socialization makes it very hard for us to kill someone, even when we run our own risk of being killed. So the military found a solution to their problem of reluctant killers. They changed the targets they used to train infantry from bulls eyes to a silhouette of a human being. And in effect, trained, through successive approximation, soldiers to kill other humans. What concerns me is the rise in the use of violent video games. If I were writing a science fiction story 30 years ago and I wanted to describe a scenario of how to create a race of perfect warriors, I would probably describe a training program where the children of this warrior race would practice daily on emotionally intense, simulated killing scenarios. This would improve their eye-hand coordination and desensitize them to killing. Only, this isn't science fiction and we sell these killer-training devices to children as entertainment. Does anyone besides me see something wrong with this picture from a learning and behavior standpoint? We have had large schools for some time; we have always had social outcasts. And here in the American West, we have always had guns (although not to the degree of availability of today-- although, when I was growing up in a small western town, I remember there being hunting rifles in pretty much everyone's home.) And bad parenting has been around for some time as well. But the misfits didn't pick up those guns and go on a killing spree. It took the advent of killer-training video games to bring about that level of desensitization and training. On the day of the school shooting at Springfield Oregon, my sister who lives in the same town, went to a local skating rink with her children. She looked over at the video arcade and saw a man putting a quarter in a violent video game and putting the gun control into the hands of a 5 year old boy. She was so overwhelmed with horror at the similarity to what had just happened, that she went over and unplugged the machine. So while I agree with Jim that violence is part and parcel of our genetics as humans, I would be very interested in looking at the interaction between the genetic precursors and the specific training that violent video games are providing. Janice From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 28-APR-1999 11:53:06.43 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: the Denver shootings On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Janice Willard wrote: >What concerns me is the rise in the use of violent video games. If I were >writing a science fiction story 30 years ago and I wanted to describe a >scenario of how to create a race of perfect warriors, I would probably >describe a training program where the children of this warrior race would >practice daily on emotionally intense, simulated killing scenarios. This >would improve their eye-hand coordination and desensitize them to killing. >Only, this isn't science fiction and we sell these killer-training devices >to children as entertainment. Does anyone besides me see something wrong >with this picture from a learning and behavior standpoint? Janice-- Since you've spent time in Japan, perhaps you could help me with a related question I have. Someone on the news mentioned that Japan has a very violent popular culture (you only have to look at a little anime or a coupla print comics to know that's true), but very little actual violence. So why should a violent pop culture lead to actual violence here but not Japan? I think the real difference is that in Japan, cultural indoctrination stresses the group, while we stress the individual. Thus, Japanese youth have built-in controls against harming the group despite their exposure to violence, while we individualists see only our own pain and desire to lash out. Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Huh? -- me From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 28-APR-1999 12:32:02.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Columbine/Brody E-Mail Hey again Jim! Re: Pennhurst - much of what you say is applicable to intensive animal operations. For example, a new employee with swine handles the animals gently, is agahst at some of the conditions and petitions for changes. Six months to a year down the road, (s)he is throwing piglets 3 metres or more into pens. Many theories suggest "joining the crowd" is a social and psychological defense mechanism for survival. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"GFlannigan@infonet.tufts.edu" 28-APR-1999 12:41:49.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: the Denver shootings Dear ALL: I don't often put in my two cents but have a few comments as a Canadian living in the US of A. I have noted very little difference between Canadians and Americans. Our children exposed to the same influences. Canadians watch a large amount of American TV, media etc. Canadian youth play the same video games with the same intensity (in fact I grew up with some very violent cartoons and a love for violent movies without turning into a serial killer), and teenagers appear lost everywhere The only differences I have seen are that our hate groups (we do have them) aren't quite as visible and we can't get semi-automatic guns(or pistols)as easily. Living in the east, west and centre of Canada, we have a slightly different attitude on guns. Many young children are exposed to hunting and the adults love to fire rifles (especially in western Canada but also elsewhere). BUT THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN IN CANADA (at least not that I am aware of). My question is: What is the difference? Is it just the access to guns and a slightly different attitude toward guns? I don't have a clue. All I know is that the people in both countries don't appear that different to me. Gerry ______________________________________________ Gerry Flannigan BSc. DVM Behaviour Resident Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine North Grafton, MA From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 28-APR-1999 15:33:20.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Columbine: Bloody Rocky Mountain Flower Dear List: I've sat uncomfortably many times at this monitor - reading from this ethology list various descriptions of animal management practices that I would define as less than humane: Chickens housed tightly in small cages unable to stand much less perch; pigs tossed about on transport to slaughter, crushed, panicked and suffocating; goats frightened and stressed until they collapse. All this discussed with enough scientific antiseptic to keep emotions cooled and data flow moving. What is it in us that allows us to shut off the emotions and continue our poking and prodding while collecting the all-important data? What is it that allows us to wave off information of agri-business cruelties while purchasing our favorite slab of flesh for the weekend BBQ? I would like to submit my belief that the capability we have to remove ourselves to the suffering of other sentient beings - even if they are "merely animals" - is the exact same one used by the Denver boys to destroy their classmates and themselves. The question I ask of this tragedy is: What part of ME is dead to the sanctity of life? There was a song very popular with youth a few years back with the words "The Killer in you is the Killer in me." I believe there is much wisdom in that young artist's (Smashing Pumpkins) words. While we poke and prod at the societal ills that may or may not have caused the killings in Denver (or Kosovo, or on the streets, or in our labs and slaughter houses)...I would hope that we also keep the discussion "at home" within the scientists' private world of giving life and taking life. I can only think that to begin to understand the motivations of others we have to first recognize similar inkings within ourselves. Respectfully, Donna Reynolds From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 28-APR-1999 15:50:34.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: the Denver shootings In a message dated 4/28/99 12:58:12 PM Central Daylight Time, jwillard@turbonet.com writes: << So while I agree with Jim that violence is part and parcel of our genetics as humans, I would be very interested in looking at the interaction between the genetic precursors and the specific training that violent video games are providing. >> I have often wondered about video games and violence and as a mother of 3 children (2 boys and a girl) who play video games, some violent, some not I think I can safely say (I hope) that my children would not use guns in that manner. They are now 14, 18 and 20 years old. We have always made it clear in our household that violence against other humans was abhorrent. Yes, there are wars and sometimes they need to be fought but one should always remember the cost of human life in these encounters. This is something we taught our children from an early age-hurting other humans is BAD! As was hurting animals by the way. I feel that my moral teachings far outweigh what they may see on video game screens and that as a parent I must make sure my children understand how to deal with conflict, alienation, peer pressure and ridicule and to know what is morally acceptable in dealing with those situations. I realize that parents can try to do all those things and still have children go astray but just banning violent video games is not the answer. Debbie Horwitz, DVM, DACVB From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 28-APR-1999 17:15:22.40 To: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: the Denver shootings At 01:50 PM 4/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >Janice-- > >Since you've spent time in Japan, perhaps you could help me with a related >question I have. Someone on the news mentioned that Japan has a very >violent popular culture (you only have to look at a little anime or a >coupla print comics to know that's true), but very little actual violence. >So why should a violent pop culture lead to actual violence here but not >Japan? I think the real difference is that in Japan, cultural >indoctrination stresses the group, while we stress the individual. Thus, >Japanese youth have built-in controls against harming the group despite >their exposure to violence, while we individualists see only our own pain >and desire to lash out. > > Ione Pretty much everything you have said is true, according to my observations while I was there. The print comics sold to adolescent boys has both violence and enough sexual content to make me blush. One difference could be the social training. When I come to child care here in the States to pick up my kids, the teachers will tell my kids to pick up the toys that they were playing with. A child is responsible to pick up only the toys they played with. However, when I was in Japan and went to pick up the kids from the Yochien, all of the kids put away all of the toys, whether they had played with that toy or not. So group cooperation is certainly more stressed. However I think that there are other issues. Social outcasts are also an issue in Japan, as they have a severe problem with widespread bullying. And there is a problem with suicides because of bullying. Probably a lot more children die this way than have been killed in school violence here. However, suicides are rarely reported. I saw the aftermath of a train suicide in my neighborhood and it was never mentioned on the news. I saw several instances of bullying in public that made me cringe, but no Japanese adult observing made the slightest attempt to stop it. Adolescents in Japan have very little free time. They are in school 6 days a week and often go to cram schools after school. I would not classify them as well-adjusted, from what I observed. However, while I was there, there were several instances of school knifings. And the recurrent pattern was that it was an adolescent boy who had been repeatedly bullied. There were 3 or 4 of these last Spring, with several deaths. I think much of the same kind of violence is brewing in Japan. But an out-of-control adolescent in Japan would only be able to kill or injure a few people with a knife before being stopped. This doesn't make the news the way the gun violence does. The big difference, I think, is that the Japanese do not use guns. They don't allow private gun ownership like the U.S. does. I think this is the main reason for their lower crime statistics. An out-of-control adolescent here can do a lot more damage. This is a little off topic for animal behavior, for which I apologize. Janice >-- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- >-- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- > ================================================== > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html > The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html > for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate > ================================================== > Huh? -- me > > From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 28-APR-1999 18:25:11.40 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: the Denver shootings On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Janice Willard wrote: >Social outcasts are also an issue in Japan, as they have a severe problem >with widespread bullying. And there is a problem with suicides because of >bullying. Probably a lot more children die this way than have been killed >in school violence here. However, suicides are rarely reported. [....] > >However, while I was there, there were several instances of school >knifings. And the recurrent pattern was that it was an adolescent boy who >had been repeatedly bullied. [....] >The big difference, I think, is that the Japanese do not use guns. They >don't allow private gun ownership like the U.S. does. I think this is the >main reason for their lower crime statistics. An out-of-control adolescent >here can do a lot more damage. So we have 1. acceptance of bullying (the bullied Japanese is supposed to accept the bullying, but the American is supposed to fight back); and 2. absence of guns. Nothing about the supposedly evil video games. Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Huh? -- me From: IN%"jpgarner@ucdavis.edu" 28-APR-1999 19:10:54.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Enough already This thready has been really winding me up. Sure, applied ethology can include the application of ethology to contemporary society (and it's really interesting to do so), but why do we need to abandon our critical faculties in the process. Ione makes a very good point, but there's a far more obvious statistic. Britain hosts a population of around 60 million, many of which play video games for hours on end, though very very very few own guns, and most that do are not allowed to keep them in their homes. Yet of those 60 million, only around 350 are murdered each year (With or without guns). Our police do not need to routinely carry guns, and people do not routinely get shot (by each other or the police). hmmm..... Or to put it into a more scientific perspective.... treatment A: guns plus video games treatment B: video games but no guns (albeit n of 2) Way more murders in treatment A than B..... so let's blame the video games! It couldn't have anything to do with guns, or maybe different associated social attitudes..... (now there's an idea, perhaps if we change the social attitudes, then we'll begin to have less people who feel the need to own guns and use them on each other....) nah too difficult, lets blame the video games.... Or think back to the seventies when the most violent video game was pacman..... people still got murdered then.... serial killers still killed people then.... Nuff said. Joe. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ione Smith [mailto:ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 5:24 PM > To: Janice Willard > Cc: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: the Denver shootings > > > On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Janice Willard wrote: > > >Social outcasts are also an issue in Japan, as they have a > severe problem > >with widespread bullying. And there is a problem with > suicides because of > >bullying. Probably a lot more children die this way than > have been killed > >in school violence here. However, suicides are rarely reported. > > [....] > > > >However, while I was there, there were several instances of school > >knifings. And the recurrent pattern was that it was an > adolescent boy who > >had been repeatedly bullied. > > [....] > >The big difference, I think, is that the Japanese do not use > guns. They > >don't allow private gun ownership like the U.S. does. I > think this is the > >main reason for their lower crime statistics. An > out-of-control adolescent > >here can do a lot more damage. > > So we have 1. acceptance of bullying (the bullied Japanese is > supposed to > accept the bullying, but the American is supposed to fight back); and > 2. absence of guns. Nothing about the supposedly evil video games. > > Ione > > -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- > -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- > ================================================== > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html > The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html > for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate > ================================================== > Huh? -- me > From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 28-APR-1999 22:43:50.87 To: IN%"jpgarner@ucdavis.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Enough already I apologize for getting the discussion so far off line. Jim presented a number of factors he believed to be associated with violent outbursts such as what was seen in Colorado. I added an additional one that I felt could be included in the analysis of factors, that of the learning aspects of violent video games. I still think that the availability and culture associated with guns in the U.S. is the biggest problem (I felt a lot safer in Tokyo than I do here). And Deborah also gave some excellent points about teaching values. I never meant to suggest that video games are *the* reason, only an additional thing to be considered (i.e., could there be some aspect of learning going on in susceptible children?) I didn't intend to give the impression that this was the only factor to consider. Nothing is that simple. Janice From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 29-APR-1999 06:32:51.04 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Jim Brody's Rocky Mountain Fever in Trenchcoats Message text written by Deborah McWilliams >I think it is important to NOT forget that we have many large = institutions (academic or otherwise) that are not killing fields.< Thanks Deb! Large institutions, like large cities, offer choices that can be reached without migration (transferring out). Most of us make our own list of 15= 0, it doesn't have to be structured for us. High schools have an issue of involuntary placement --- geography determines your site and the law demands you be there until 18. While you can find friends within a group of 3000, you will also find a l= ot of enemies and without protective cover. In a group of 3000 students, the effective alliances are between 13 yos a= nd not between 13 yos and adults. If we are to have larger (more than 300) schools, let's make them optiona= l and let's make them and their staffs compete on the basis of excellence a= nd safety! Jim From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 29-APR-1999 06:52:23.02 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"76517.2532@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Columbine/Brody E-Mail Message text written by Deborah McWilliams >Re: Pennhurst - much of what you say is applicable to intensive = animal operations.< I'm not surprised. Probability of reinforcement or "tit for tat" or long term survival --- w= e invest in things that are going to be around, whether land, friends, customers, or our children. Jim Brody From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 29-APR-1999 07:02:21.79 To: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" "INTERNET:DebHdvm@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" Subj: RE: the Denver shootings Message text written by INTERNET:DebHdvm@aol.com >I realize that parents can try to do all those things and still = have children go astray but just banning violent video games is not the = answer.< Hi! Remember the vervet studies --- that little guys are not initially afraid= of snakes until they see a film of another vervet reacting to a snake. Our evolved systems readily pick up some signals faster than others. One= exposure is enough. Polymorphic gene expression (and maybe early rearing) makes some of us mo= re labile than others, more easily primed. Just some ideas! Jim From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 29-APR-1999 07:02:41.50 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Jim Brody's Rocky Mountain Fever in Trenchcoats Hey Jim! Question: > In a group of 3000 students, the effective alliances are between 13 yos and > not between 13 yos and adults. > > If we are to have larger (more than 300) schools, let's make them optional > and let's make them and their staffs compete on the basis of excellence and > safety! Who do you think would congregate where? DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 29-APR-1999 07:32:23.46 To: IN%"jpgarner@ucdavis.edu" "INTERNET:jpgarner@ucdavis.edu" CC: IN%"76517.2532@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Enough already Message text written by INTERNET:jpgarner@ucdavis.edu >Nuff said. Joe.< Not enough said. 1) The kids in Littleton violated lots of existing gun laws. 2) States having a permit to carry law also have a 30% less crime rate. 3) Females carrying a gun have 3.4x better outcomes than do unarmed women= . 4) Switzerland and Israel require military training and the maintenance o= f a weapon in households. The list can go on. Blame the tool. Nope. Won't work. Never has. We find tools --- lots = of different ones --- to some very nasty primate urges. The kids were even= going to hijack a plane to crash into NYC. Can't even blame the antidepressant in this case but the people who possibly used it badly. Jim Brody From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 29-APR-1999 08:37:45.16 To: IN%"hbes-l@lists.missouri.edu" "HBES List Missouri", IN%"palanth-l-req-s6d57@egroups.com" "Paleoanthro (Jacobs)", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Wal CC: Subj: Paul D. MacLean Festschrift Late news about the Festschrift: There is SOME possibility that Dr. MacLean will attend in person. Praeger Greenwood has committed to publishing a 2 volume set on this conference because of the scientific merit of the presentations. JB =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D PAUL D. MACLEAN FESTSCHRIFT Boston Back Bay Hilton, July 16 & 17, 1999 Sponsored by the ASCAP Society* This special meeting will honor Dr. MacLean because his work has been an important conceptual platform upon which the Society's efforts have been based. Russell Gardner, Jr., M.D., FAPA, FACP, former Harry K. Davis Professor at the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston and Gera= ld A. Cory, Ph.D., Director of the Center for Behavior Ecology in San Jose, = CA are the organizers. Objectives: Meeting attendees will, as a result of this symposium, be abl= e to: Outline the relevance of MacLean's research and data for psychiatry, chil= d psychiatry, human politics, ethology, and the functions of attention and emotions Assess MacLean's theory with respect to its philosophical underpinnings, issues of reification, and unfolding information from molecular biology a= nd the genome project. Note the arguments of certain critical reviews of MacLean along with data= showing that they are suspect, and Furnish information on how this perspective augments our understanding of= affective disorders, violence, and hyperactivity syndromes. Tentative Speakers are: CUM Smith, Gerald A Cory, Vassilis Koliatsos, Seymour Itzkoff, Ernest Barratt, Daniel Levine, Allan Mirsky, Neil Greenberg, Glenn Weisfeld, Jam= es C. Harris, Annaliese Pontius, Daniel Matthews, John S. Price, Hagop Akiskol, Leon Sloman, Daniel R. Wilson, James Brody, Alan Swann, Roger Masters, Kent Bailey, Russell Gardner Jr., and Karl Pribram. The winner of the Aaron T. Beck Award will also make a presentation. (Th= is award includes $1000 is given jointly by the ASCAP Society and the Foundation for Cognitive Therapy and Research for the best essay bearing = on the aims of the Society.) *ASCAP means Across-Species Comparisons and Psychopathology (not the Association for Composers and Performers), although subscribers are hardl= y against music, but rather are very interested in it and the many other communications of both humans and non-human animals. For evolutionary psychiatrists, psychologists and others interested in our evolved natures= and establishing a physiological basis for our understanding of the human= mind, its origins, and its quirks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- --------------------------------- REGISTRATION: $75 is enclosed as ____ Check, ______ Money Order, ___ Credit Card Charge= Checks or money orders are payable to The University of Texas Medical Branch If you prefer to use a credit card, please complete the following: I authorize The University of Texas Medical Branch to charge to my (mark one) ___MasterCard, ___ Visa, ___ Discover, ___ American Express The following amount: ____________Card number:______________________ Card expiration date: _____________ Signature: ________________________ Name: _______________________ Address:___________________________ (print, please!) = = Telephone ( )_____________ = ___________________________ email ________________________ HOTEL RESERVATIONS: = Please make your own reservations as needed at the Boston Back Bay Hilton= , 40 Dalton Street, Boston, 02115, 800-874-0663, or 617-236-1100. Special rates have been arranged for "The ASCAP Group" -- $185/night for single o= r double plux tax. Please make your reservations for the nights of July 15= & 16 (for the meetings Friday, July 16 & Saturday, July 17) as quickly as possible, latest June 15. After this date, the group rate will be provide= d only on a room-available basis. Make sure that you identify your group affiliation as ASCAP when you make your reservation. Group rates may hol= d for July 17 should you desire to stay. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- --- For more information or for a sample copy of the Society Newsletter, without obligation, contact: = Russell Gardner, Jr., M.D. Secretary Treasurer The ASCAP Society, = 921 Blume Drive Galveston, Texas 77554 rgj999@yahoo.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- -- The Festschrift occurs the weekend before the 20th Cape Cod Institute, = Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values July 19-23, 1999 John Price, M.D., Russell Gardner, M.D., John Fentress, Ph.D., James Brod= y, Ph.D. http://www.cape.org/1999 jbrody@compuserve.com and http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary Come to the Festschrift and then out to the Cape! From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 29-APR-1999 09:09:26.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Jim Brody's Rocky Mountain Fever in Trenchcoats Jim: When I ran a treatment and assessment centre, we could reliably predict who would "run" with whom based on the profile we received before receiving the child. It always meant trouble and intervention on our part. DebMcW > Date sent: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:15:50 -0400 > From: "James F. Brody" > Subject: Re: Jim Brody's Rocky Mountain Fever in Trenchcoats > To: Deborah McWilliams > Message text written by Deborah McWilliams > >Who do you think would congregate where?< > > Possibilities: > -- geographic > -- where my friends are > -- cool programs. > > Address imbalances on basis of performance and conduct as is done now in > the private schools. > > Maybe? > > Jim > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"hanebaum@cadvision.com" "Udo Hanebaum" 29-APR-1999 09:58:12.37 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: Another controversial topic Hi everybody I was made aware of this website through another list. On this webpage the owner suggests the use of shelter animals as food for the poor. Although he approaches the topic from a religious view and I take issue with his opinion that animal welfare is against gods will, the basic message, using all animals as food does make sense on a logical level. I do however have emotional/cultural problems with anybody even looking that way at my dog. What are your thoughts? Take a look at this: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/1727/ Udo Calgary, AB From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 29-APR-1999 10:52:10.76 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"jpgarner@ucdavis.edu" "INTERNET:jpgarner@ucdavis.edu", IN%"76517.2532@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Enough already On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, James F. Brody wrote: >2) States having a permit to carry law also have a 30% less crime rate. >3) Females carrying a gun have 3.4x better outcomes than do unarmed women. References please. Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Huh? -- me From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 29-APR-1999 12:10:28.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Columbine: Bloody Rocky Mountain Flower Emily G Patterson-Kane wrote: > But as scientists our contribution is not empathy, as much as it is >analysis. This is the skill we are qualified to contribute and it would be > >counter-productive to do otherwise. Also - it is easy to confuse > >objectively with heartlessness, but not normally what is occurring in this > >list, I think? I appreciate your comments and your candidness, Emily. One thing I find fascinating with those who do possess the ability (the necessity) to turn off the emotions at will in order to do the work that needs to be done. (In my corner, it is to euthanize animals that are to be food or severely injured). Once home, (or away form the euth tank) they can be "turned back on" and affection can be lavished on pets, etc. This ability is something most of the public may have a hard time understanding - but because it is possible - doesn't that make it easier to step into the minds of people like the Denver killers (or in my neighborhood, the drive-by shooters) and "know" them? If we know how to 'turn it off and on' - can we use this knowledge in any way to influence those with destructive tendencies who have a hard time 'turning it on'? And a comment on the confusion between objectivity and heartlessness...In our culture objectivity (detachment) is highly prized among young people who may confuse it for independence. What is a tool for science becomes a poor excuse for others to use inappropriately within society (apathy, lack of willingness to get involved, etc.). Can compassion ever grow out of detachment? If so, how? I poke at objectivity not to insult scientists (although I realize I may have done this nonetheless) - but because I believe those who are skilled at working within a detached perspective are halfway to understanding a crucial part of the mystery here. Regards, Donna Reynolds From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 29-APR-1999 12:55:46.04 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Columbine: Bloody Rocky Mountain Flower On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Donna Reynolds wrote: >I appreciate your comments and your candidness, Emily. >One thing I find fascinating with those who do possess the ability (the >necessity) to turn off the emotions at will in order to do the work that needs >to be done. (In my corner, it is to euthanize animals that are to be food or >severely injured). I find it both offensive and harmful to say that scientists "turn off" their emotions in order to do "the work that needs to be done". Doing scientific research, or euthanizing animals, is NOT a matter of turning off one's emotions. It *should* be a matter of accepting those emotions while being guided by one's rational mind. If you've got to completely disregard your emotions in order to do your work, you need to change jobs. Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Huh? -- me From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 29-APR-1999 15:22:51.87 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"76517.2532@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Jim Brody's Rocky Mountain Fever in Trenchcoats Message text written by Deborah McWilliams > When I ran a treatment and assessment centre, we could reliably = predict who would "run" with whom based on the profile we received = before receiving the child. It always meant trouble and = intervention on our part. < No great surprise. Sam Goldstein said a couple years ago that oppositional defiant disorder can almost be diagnosed on the basis of a parent interview. Bipolar/oppositionality are average traits multiplied a good bit. Feuds, spite, people not speaking to each other --- all territorial, migratory things. Jim Brody From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 29-APR-1999 15:50:42.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Columbine: Bloody Rocky Mountain Flower Ione Smith wrote: I find it both offensive and harmful to say that scientists "turn off" > their emotions in order to do "the work that needs to be done". Doing > scientific research, or euthanizing animals, is NOT a matter of turning > off one's emotions. It *should* be a matter of accepting those emotions > while being guided by one's rational mind. If you've got to completely > disregard your emotions in order to do your work, you need to change jobs. Maybe you misunderstand my line of thinking, Ione. Setting emotions aside (turning them off) *during the act* of euthanasia does not, I believe, have to necessitate denying them altogether. I have seen a euthanasia (cervical dislocation) botched by a weeping handler. Not to criticize this caring person, but her grief did cause the animal to suffer. Others I know who do the bulk of the euthanasia's may appear to be somewhat cold and clinical during the process (these are wild animals - who do not need or want our human comforting as a pet would) - but I've found them blubbering like babies after the act. This is what I mean by "turning it off" in order to do the work that needs to be done...then back on again later. I am curious... Do you allow yourself to fully feel the sadness or grief during a euthanasia? Does it affect your performance of the technique? What if you need to perform dozens in a week's time? How do you protect yourself from emotional burn-out? I recognize part of your work is concerned with welfare issues (which are always going to be affected by how much we allow ourselves to feel) and appreciate your red flagging this particular topic. It IS important to discuss. Regards, Donna Reynolds From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 29-APR-1999 16:18:52.73 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: the Denver shootings Reply to message from jwillard@turbonet.com of Wed, 28 Apr > >This brings up something that I would also add to Jim's excellent analysis >and that is the role of learning violence, or rather, the desensitization >to our normal brakes to violence. > >I do not have references for this, but I heard that during WWII, there was >a problem in the military with getting soldiers to fire weapons on each >other. It seems that normal human socialization makes it very hard for us >to kill someone, even when we run our own risk of being killed. So the >military found a solution to their problem of reluctant killers. They >changed the targets they used to train infantry from bulls eyes to a >silhouette of a human being. And in effect, trained, through successive >approximation, soldiers to kill other humans. > The military still believes in this scheme. I have read two places since the slaughter that a retired military officer reported that the Marines condition their soldiers to kill by having them play DOOM, an extremely violent and very popular home PC game that is literally nothing but the player killing dozens if not hundreds of enemies. >What concerns me is the rise in the use of violent video games. If I were >writing a science fiction story 30 years ago and I wanted to describe a >scenario of how to create a race of perfect warriors, I would probably >describe a training program where the children of this warrior race would >practice daily on emotionally intense, simulated killing scenarios. This >would improve their eye-hand coordination and desensitize them to killing. >Only, this isn't science fiction and we sell these killer-training devices >to children as entertainment. Does anyone besides me see something wrong >with this picture from a learning and behavior standpoint? > Nothing except you left out the movies, TV shows, and audio media items that glorify anarchy and violence. Seems odd that our society has rather strict bans on any depiction of two people making love, but almost no prevention of gratuitous mugging, maiming, and killing. >We have had large schools for some time; we have always had social >outcasts. And here in the American West, we have always had guns (although >not to the degree of availability of today-- although, when I was growing >up in a small western town, I remember there being hunting rifles in pretty >much everyone's home.) And bad parenting has been around for some time as >well. But the misfits didn't pick up those guns and go on a killing spree. > It took the advent of killer-training video games to bring about that >level of desensitization and training. I would wager that each and every one of those gun totin' children in your youth was taught how to deal with a gun and what a gun was for. I was taught, and I taught my kids the same, that you never point a gun, TOY or real, at anything you do not intend to shoot. To this day I cannot point even a bent stick at a human. My sons report the same feeling. Guns are tools as are hammers and automobiles. We members of society do both good and terrible things with all of the above. We used to have bad parenting and good schools. Now we have bad parenting and bad schools. My teaching friends and relatives, of whom I have many, relate myriad horror stories of bad parents who support their monster children and worse administrators who knuckle to these few dregs of our society. The logical extension of this behavior by school administrators is developing anarchy. IMO, there are objective rights and wrongs and rights and responsibilities. We cannot change parents but we can change schools. Most seem to agree that adolescence is a process of testing the limits. Clearly, establishing and defending clear limits is our (including our schools) responsibility to our children. CHDR (Catch him/her doing it right) is a vital part of this process, at least as important as CHDW. > >On the day of the school shooting at Springfield Oregon, my sister who >lives in the same town, went to a local skating rink with her children. >She looked over at the video arcade and saw a man putting a quarter in a >violent video game and putting the gun control into the hands of a 5 year >old boy. She was so overwhelmed with horror at the similarity to what had >just happened, that she went over and unplugged the machine. > >So while I agree with Jim that violence is part and parcel of our genetics >as humans, I would be very interested in looking at the interaction between >the genetic precursors and the specific training that violent video games >are providing. > > >Janice > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"mshea@ansc.purdue.edu" "Marg Shea-Moore" 29-APR-1999 16:20:15.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Listserve" CC: Subj: job opening This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_fIPgWdhWrOcn5XkjGTuMcA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This posting is to announce an opening for a full-time scientist position in the Agriculture Research Service of USDA at West Lafayette, IN. We are searching for an Ethologist to work specifically with Swine. For more details, please look at the website: www.ars.usda.gov/afm/hrd/resjobs/D9W-9188.HTM If you are having difficulty accessing the website, please follow steps listed below. 1. http://www.ars.usda.gov/ 2. Opportunities 3. Employment Opportunities 4. Research Scientist Vacancies Once you have the vacancies listed, select RES ANIMAL SCIENTIST ANN#: ARS-D9W-9188 If you have any difficulties accessing this information please call Cheryl Brown (765-494-9726) or Margaret Shea-Moore (765-494-6358). --Boundary_(ID_fIPgWdhWrOcn5XkjGTuMcA) Content-type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-description: Card for Margaret Shea-Moore Content-disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit begin: vcard fn: Margaret Shea-Moore n: Shea-Moore;Margaret org: Livestock Behavior Research Unit, USDA-ARS adr: Purdue University;;Poultry Bldg.;West Lafayette ;IN;47906;USA email;internet: mshea@ansc.purdue.edu title: Research Leader, Ethologist tel;work: 765-494-6358 tel;fax: 765-496-1993 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --Boundary_(ID_fIPgWdhWrOcn5XkjGTuMcA)-- From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 29-APR-1999 17:16:21.58 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Columbine: Bloody Rocky Mountain Flower On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Donna Reynolds wrote: >I have seen a euthanasia (cervical dislocation) botched by a weeping handler. Not >to criticize this caring person, but her grief did cause the animal to suffer. Here, I think we're suffering from a difference in terminology. I don't think the handler's *grief* caused the animal to suffer; I think the handler's *reaction* to her grief caused the problem. I would not want the handler to feel less grief before, during, or after the euthanasia--therefore, I wouldn't want her to "turn off" her emotions. I would simply like her to learn better control over her bodily reaction to the emotion. I think that pretty much answers the rest of your questions; however, I'd like to also note that those who suffer from burn-out are those who either *have* "turned off" their emotions, or who have lost the ability to deal with them. Dealing with emotions is essential--trying to turn em off is pretty deadly, IMHO. (And just as an aside, when I was in school I helped a resident euthanize a wonderful dog who suffered from a terminal neoplasia. I cried the whole time--not because the euth was unnecessary, but because I was so sorry that such a wonderful dog had to die. The poor resident (male) was so embarrassed by my emotion that he would never let me help him with another euth. On the other hand, when I was in practice clients would uniformly tell me how much they appreciated the fact that I shared their emotions when I euthed their pets.) Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Huh? -- me From: IN%"noritatu@hotmail.com" "nora peskin" 29-APR-1999 18:10:54.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: pseudomona aeruginosa in a vagina infection Can anybody help me here? My dog (female, 4 years old, emptied, no breed) has a pseudomona aeruginosa infection in her vagina. I took her to the vet because she was expelling some transparent fluid from her vagina. They made an analisis and it came out it was this bacteria. The vet used the antibiotic "enrofloxacine" by injections for almost a week, but the infection was still there. So, 10 days ago he changed to "baytril" and it doesn´t seem to be working either. The vet wants to go on with this antibiotic for at least 7 more days. My questions are : - how long can you subministrate an antibiotic to a dog ? Is it OK to continue for so long (10 or more days) even when no response is observed? - Have you ever heard of pseudomona a. in a vagina infection ? If you have, is it dangerous, could it have complications ? - Which antibiotic do you recommend to treat my dog ? As she is empty, she doesn´t have reproductive organs, the only thing she might have had was a "piometra of the uterus", I mean of the piece of uterus left when dogs are emptied. I´m looking forward to hearing from you, thankyou in advance. Nora Peskin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"V.W.Koch@usda.gov" "V W Koch" 29-APR-1999 18:12:10.54 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Peacocks and Displays I apologize for rehashing an old topic (I've been gone for awhile), but I couldn't resist responding to Dr. Cameron's post regarding the cat contest, described as follows: >My son, a very skilled cat-person, tells a story where >he was at a gathering where the host had a >new cat. So just as an exercise all sat on the floor in a circle >with the idea of determining who was the best at attracting this cat. >The other guests all stared at the cat, leaned toward the cat, and made >some sort of entreating vocalization. My son won the contest by slumping, >lowering his lids to half mast, and looking just to the side of the new cat. >Clearly, to the cat, he was the most cat-like and least threatening of >the group, and, of course, the one to go to. "Everybody knows" that cats always go to the people that hate cats instead of to the people that love them. Maybe this is the mechanism.... Wendy Koch v.w.koch@USDA.GOV From: IN%"noritatu@hotmail.com" "nora peskin" 29-APR-1999 18:13:16.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: pseudomona aeruginosa in a dog infection Can anybody help me here? My dog (female, 4 years old, emptied, no breed) has a pseudomona aeruginosa infection in her vagina. I took her to the vet because she was expelling some transparent fluid from her vagina. They made an analisis and it came out it was this bacteria. The vet used the antibiotic "enrofloxacine" by injections for almost a week, but the infection was still there. So, 10 days ago he changed to "baytril" and it doesn´t seem to be working either. The vet wants to go on with this antibiotic for at least 7 more days. My questions are : - how long can you subministrate an antibiotic to a dog ? Is it OK to continue for so long (10 or more days) even when no response is observed? - Have you ever heard of pseudomona a. in a vagina infection ? If you have, is it dangerous, could it have complications ? - Which antibiotic do you recommend to treat my dog ? As she is empty, she doesn´t have reproductive organs, the only thing she might have had was a "piometra of the uterus", I mean of the piece of uterus left when dogs are emptied. I´m looking forward to hearing from you, thankyou in advance. Nora Peskin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 29-APR-1999 19:08:33.77 To: IN%"noritatu@hotmail.com" "nora peskin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: pseudomona aeruginosa in a dog infection On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, nora peskin wrote: >The vet used the antibiotic "enrofloxacine" by injections for almost a >week, but the infection was still there. So, 10 days ago he changed to >"baytril" and it doesn=B4t seem to be working either. errrr..... enrofloxacin and Baytril are the same drug. Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html=20 for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D =20 Huh? -- me From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 30-APR-1999 01:30:07.99 To: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Columbine: Bloody Rocky Mountain Flower Ione Smith wrote: > Here, I think we're suffering from a difference in terminology. I don't > think the handler's *grief* caused the animal to suffer; I think the > handler's *reaction* to her grief caused the problem. Yes, a clearer way to look at what happened. > I'd > like to also note that those who suffer from burn-out are those who either > *have* "turned off" their emotions, or who have lost the ability to deal > with them. Dealing with emotions is essential--trying to turn em off is > pretty deadly, IMHO. Owning your emotions IS essential - being very present with a death is a gift to both you and the being who is dying. But to be 100% emotionally present for every single death if one is performing a large number (killing large numbers of animals for food, or a busy season at the wildlife hospital where 60% do not survive) - this seems too hard a task for the human psyche to endure. (I shake my head) - I would like to know other's opinions on this. > On the other hand, when I was in practice clients would uniformly > tell me how much they appreciated the fact that I shared their emotions > when I euthed their pets.) Then you are definitely the person I will call on when it's time for my beloved animal friend to go !! Donna Reynolds From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 30-APR-1999 06:55:01.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Mobbing and Murder Some very interesting and important observations have been made on what is without dispute an ethological topic. I would like to comment on what I call "exclusive bullying". (The hazing, teasing and ribbing that leads to acceptance in a group and the huge relief and pleasure of membership | call inclusive bullying.) It does not matter who you are or whence you come if you are "exclusively bullied". You can be blessed with every imaginable advantage of birth, genetics, intelligence or qualification and still be destroyed by relentless, inescapable criticism and contempt. If you are endowed with defects of any kind be they mental or physical or deficiencies of self-esteem your destruction will probably be quicker. Shortly after the horrific massacre of primary school children and their teacher in Dunblane, Scotland, television ran a program about the killer. He was portrayed as a rather worrying oddball with a penchant for organising activities of the Scouting variety with children without the authorisation or blessing of any authority. In one film clip he was shown being pursued by mothers along a street in Dunblane. An unedifying spectacle of vicious "fish-wifely" behaviour by the women. I t is clear that this man was virtually imprisoned in his home with his problems and brooded upon his treatment by the local people. He was also a member of a gun club. He took dreadful revenge upon the mothers of Dunblane and then killed himself. I am convinced that the "mobbing" by unbridled, vindictive women (however righteous they may have deemed their actions) had a crucial impact on the explosive actions of the wretch. I am similarly concerned by the frequent murderous outcome of conflict between neighbours whose protracted mutual bullying and brooding leads to loss of control and abandonment of moral considerations. As to Janice and Jim's observations on training soldiers to kill, there is more to the matter than the design of targets. I cannot find a history of conflict that does not reveal the necessity of portraying the enemy as inferior or unspeakable. He must be despised as a "slope", "slant", "dago" "wog" "taig" "fuzzy-wuzzy" and accused of bayoneting babies, genital mutilation and more, before the "Generals" can be sure that their men will hate or abhor enough to kill. Daily I am confronted by the cold, reptilian gaze of Serbian Information Officers who deny the atrocities. Daily I am invited to regard the rank and file of the Serbian military and police as worthy of immediate death. But I sat on a hillside in Cyprus and watched "our" Turkish Paramilitary Police seriously damaging a Cypriot village on the pretext off searching it and very roughly handling the villagers. I was struck by the irony of dressing them in black and tan uniforms. (For information the Black and Tans were "our" paramilitaries in the atrocious oppression of the Irish in the 1920's We were indoctrinated to regard Johnny Turk as an excellent fellow who thrashed us soundly at Gallipoli but had huge regard for his noble foe! The Cypriotes were Balkan degenerates who had no right to the island. But we had seen the slaughtered, unarmed lady from the Volunteer Service who has shot to death delivering cakes and comics to the British Troops. I do believe that it is Governments, Politicians and Powerbrokers who put men and women onto the streets to fight in terror of their lives and the label is irrelevant be it "terrorist" "freedom-fighter" or "security personnel". In fear and loathing men and women break the rules and conventions and descend to the blind ferocity of surviving. I do not see how those in Power can retreat behind the conventions and decencies of the rules of engagement and leave the blame with desperate combatants. The Weisenthals pursue the functionaries to the end of Time. The Leaders tend to escape. The handful of revenge killings in Nuremberg and Tokyo did not meet the measure of the guilty. Beyond this we all have responsibility as parents, employers, teachers and passers-by to temper our aggression and despite against others. We must all consider the limits of others' resilience and strength. We should all be guardians of the sanity of others. Robin NB. The expression of rage, terror and revenge is informed and directed by the culture. Those who cleaned up after the massacre of Captain Fetterman and his command were greatly distressed by the artistic distribution of soldiers' bodyparts about the rocks and bushes of the sight. The Sioux (who regarded themselves as "proper human beings" were inspired by their culture. Our contemporary killers draw their inspiration from our culture and its Multimedia outputs. (I do not approve of the torrent of pus that emerges from Film and TV but I feel sure that it does not affect the amount of deviation from decency and pity but rather its form.) Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 30-APR-1999 07:30:30.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Columbine: Bloody Rocky Mountain Flower Hey Donna!! > One thing I find fascinating with those who do possess the ability (the > necessity) to turn off the emotions at will in order to do the work that needs > to be done. (In my corner, it is to euthanize animals that are to be food or > severely injured). > Once home, (or away form the euth tank) they can be "turned back on" and > affection can be lavished on pets, etc. I have found that those with animals at home are best able to cope with animal euthanasia's as part of their job description. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 30-APR-1999 07:43:37.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Mobbing and Murder Good to hear from you Robin! Watch the terminology, will ya? As a turtle lover (emotionally, only) I have to object to the use of reptilian in this instance. ;) DebMcW > Daily I am confronted by the cold, reptilian > gaze of Serbian Information Officers who > deny the atrocities. Daily I am invited dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7