From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "ROBIN E WALKER" 22-APR-1995 08:33:37.02 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Humour and the Catharsis of Fear Nothing so concentrates the mind as does fear. No greater antidote exist for fear than laughter. The Greeks of the Classical era were as addicted to their dramatic arts as we are to our varied media for entertainment. They agonized about the legitimacy of depicting horror, murder, rape, consumption of children in pies served to parents et. etc. In a much quoted passage Aristotle argues that it is necessary to experience the grief and pity evoked by tragedy in order to "purge" the mind of such emotions. I think he was wrong but only because he had no neurendocrinology or formal psychology to employ in his argument. I suspect the Greeks assumed that the mechanisism of purging horror was akin to that of purging desire. The act, so to speak, discharging the need.My view is that the fictitious experience of vile events is grossly overemphasized in our culture. It can be argued that the "rehearsal" of fear and anger in play or by fictive means is valuable, even adaptive, as a preparation for real emergencies. No rational individual could defend the torrent of pus that issues from the media is these terms. By the kindest of criteria we have an overload of digusting cruelty and terror. I do not believe that the Greeks has access to anything resembling the satellite coverage of today. Many of them may have gone to the theatre once a year. Once in the theatre the paying (ancient Greek) customer watched a cycle of three tragedies, the dramatic content of which has never been surpassed for its horror; including the worst efforts of modern film-makers. By custom the audience was not allowed to leave the auditorium until they had been regaled with a fourth and final play which was a wild, rude, scatological comedy. It was felt that laughter was necessary as an antidote. A antidote to what? The propensity to laugh until helpless and tearful and unable to draw breath is proportional to anxiety and fear. I remember an occasion when my cousin and I were feeding a very savage friesian bull. Our routine was to enter the loose box with a pitchfork and a border collie. One of us would stand guard against the bull which was rapidly eating its feed, the dog would eye the bull fearlessly, the other person would replenish a drinking trough with buckets of water. Suddenly a gust of wind slammed the yard door shut. The collie slipped out through the vertical bars and the bull began to eat even faster. The established pattern was that he would rush the door just as we escaped and made it secure. My cousin announced that he could not open the door. As the bull finished up his repast and turned towards us my cousin began to giggle helplessly. Somehow he opened the door and we fell out in paroxysms of hysterical laughter. The bull hit the door as we leaned against it shooting the bolts. Two periods in an I.C.U exposed me to the humour of nurses of very high calibre. I suppose that I subsumed my fear in the strategy of appeasement/deflection being unable to fight,freeze (with a purpose) or take flight. Instinctively we arrange ourselves so as to be agreable to nurses, if we are wise, and they respond spectacularly in my experience. The humour is their defence against the fearful stress of the day. The third environment in which I have encountered rich, earthy and boundless humour is the unit for the emotionally disturbed, abused and defiant children at which I have helped out as a volunteer for the last few years. This school is wholly staffed by women The fourth context for the employment of humour is the consultation in which the goal is that the owner of a disturbed pet comes to aknowledge their own responsibility for some if not all of the damage. This cannot be achieved by hectoring or censorious methods. As most of our damaging responses to pets (and children) are the result of fear of failure, fear of the aggression, fear of criticism, the conversion to laughter and tears is often quite swift and the relief is dramatic. Even as I write I can see quite clearly that the Problem arises when the antidote is applied without the fear being present! Presumably the questions to answer are:- 1. If you missed the three tragedies and only caught the flatulent, phallus waving, bawdy nonsense you might find it inapropriate. 2. If you are not in terror for your life but in for minor procedures humour could be unwelcome in the Hospital context. On reflection it would be like giving a powerful mood altering drug (such a Prozac) to a patient with no or very little true mood deviance. The result could be an imbalance in the opposite direction. I will concede, this early, that dispensing humour to an unsuspecting audience will predictably affront and delight according to the chance states of mind of the recipients. On reflection it would be like giving a powerful mood altering drug (such a Prozac) to a patient with no or very little true mood deviance. The result could be an imbalance in the opposite direction. MEDICINAL LAUGHTER *Important inclusion for Data Sheet* Indications. Laughter is the best Medicine. Contra-Indications. Diabetes - Insulin is strongly reccommended. Special Precautions. Careful assessment to confirm presence of anxiety requiring catharsis. Side Effects Hysteria, epiphora, apnoea and terminal affront. From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "ROBIN E WALKER" 22-APR-1995 08:34:08.00 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: The Heeb letters Comments please. Here is the entire correspondence that I have had with the vengeful Mz Heeb. In view of her rather nasty assertions I would be obliged if you would find time to read it. REPLY-TO: mheeb@darwin.bio.uci.edu Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 08:28:57 -0800 (PST) From: Michaela Heeb Hey there, I think that you are trying to locate the work by Insel, T. and possibly the work by De Vries, G. They have published much on the role of vasopressin's role in monogamous pair-bonding in voles. \o/ --/~\-- |0 0| / \ / \ mheeb@darwin.bio.uci.edu / \ Dept. of Psychobiology | | University of California \ / Irvine \ / | |________/ To: mheeb@darwin.bio.uci.edu Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 13:40:50 Subject: Re: Bonding From: robin@coape.win-uk.net (ROBIN E WALKER) REPLY-TO: robin@coape.win-uk.net Hello, Brilliant..I am in pursuit of the names. My Librarian will be pleased too..she did'nt like ..fetch me something about voles ..from somewhere..sometime last summer! Give my regards to Larry Cahill if you see him, Yours gratefully, Robin Walker Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 09:16:01 -0800 (PST) From: Michaela Heeb X-Sender: mheeb@mendel.bio.uci.edu REPLY-TO: mheeb@darwin.bio.uci.edu Winslow JT et al (Insel article) Nature, 1993 365(6446):545-8. Another researcher is Carter CS Physiology and Behavior, 1994 55(5):885-9 Scientific American, 1993 268(6):100-6 HOPE THESE HELP YOU. . .I DON'T DO RESEARCH ON MONOGAMY; BUT I AM VERY INTERESTED IN IT. . .I STUDY MALE SEX BEHAVIOR IN A LAB WHERE DE VRIES HAD BEEN A POST-DOC. . .THIS LED ME TO READ SOME LITERATURE ON MONOGAMY. . .VERY INTERESTING STUFF - WHAT WITH THIS VASOPRESSIN CONNECTION, AND ALL. I AM INTERESTED IN VASOPRESSIN'S ROLE IN CONTROLLING MALE SEXUAL BEHAVIOR AND AM LOOKING AT THIS FOR MY PHD. FROM WHERE DO YOU KNOW LARRY? THIS WAS QUITE A SURPRISE, HE HAS COME BACK TO IRVINE TO CONTINUE HIS POST-DOCTORAL EXPERIENCE!!! IN FACT HE IS WORKING ON A SIMILAR TECHNIQUE AS MYSELF AND APPEARS TO BE HAVING QUITE A BIT OF SUCCESS!!! WHERE ARE YOU STUDYING/WORKING??? \o/ --/~\-- |0 0| / \ / \ mheeb@darwin.bio.uci.edu / \ Dept. of Psychobiology | | University of California \ / Irvine \ / | |________/ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 19:42:45 Subject: Re: Bonding From: robin@coape.win-uk.net (ROBIN E WALKER) REPLY-TO: robin@coape.win-uk.net Dear Michaela, I am sailing under false flags here! I don't know Larry but I have corresponded with him on the topic of propranolol and "flash bulb memory". His note in Nature last November suddenly made sense of what I had been seeing in dogs with phobias being treated with a mixture of phenobarbitone and propranolol. Not only is there a brilliant response in terms of the phobia being controlled but the dogs seem to be able to learn not to afraid when the medication stops. I wrote to larry and his kind response earned him a deluge of questions from me! It is from observing these dogs and requiring their owners to keep diaries of their progress that I have picked up these "infatuated" individuals. I am a humble veterinary practitioner who asks a lot of questions in order to understand what I see. I seem to be getting a little ahead of the information readily available in the accessible literature. My profession has neglected the science of neurobiology and those of us with strong interests in dog and cat behaviour are hungry for scientific rationale for the things we do and see. Another area of great interest is that of using steroids to modify behaviour. As you know we have removed a lot of gonads to deal with problems. We also have used progesterones to modify male behaviour such as aggression and hypersexuality (?normal but a nuisance). Anomalous cases such as the young male labrador which was treated with Tardak (delmadinone) for "hypersexuality) and became less so motivated but quite aggressive to other dogs (!) raises questions. Currently I am exploring the literary evidence for the proposition that the delmadinone indeed adresses male receptors concerned with sexual behaviour but in addition its metabolites may be significant GABA agonists at the GABAbenzodiazepine receptor complex causing an anxiolytic effect. However, I wonder whether this dog was effectively tranquillised sufficiently to disinhibit a tendency to be aggressive to other dogs that was previously restrained by timidity or caution or a sense of self-harm. (I believe low dose alcohol and benzodiazepines can so disinhibit nursing mothers with fractious babies that they will batter them). Maleness in dogs seems to predispose them to epilepsy and I certainly see psychomotor or temporal lobe epilepsy in males. Again I am wondering if it is the GABA antagonist action of testosterone metabolites which is promoting seizure activity. Especially when arousal by the proximity of bitches in oestrus might be inducing pulsatile testosterone production. You see what larry had to endure! I guess that this may be of interest to you as you are working with male behaviour. Our problem in the field is to make rational diagnosis and apply medication effectivly and with a full prediction of likely anomalies for owners who are already in a state of emotional turmoil about the problem behaviour (and their own response). I fear that you have made the mistake of throwing titbits to a Labrador retriever. I will be forever at your door or bringing you things that you really dont want! Many thanks for the references. The librarians at the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons seem to have very limited database access. Robin Walker (B.Vet.Med MRCVS) REPLY-TO: mheeb@darwin.bio.uci.edu No you are not the only one who is/was offended - a couple of weeks back I posted a request that R. W. curtail his use of inappropriate language. . .this was met with a fair number of personal replies that congratulated me on my posting (indicative that many individuals have been repeatedly offended) and also by a handful of personal (and one to the BB) that my being offended was somehow childish? Amazing attitudes for scientists in the 1990s??? I do think it is important to remember that at this point it appears to be a single individual and I now simply delete his mail without regard to content - this may seem inappropriate to some of you; but a couple of personal messages from R. W. were even more offensive than what has appeared on the net and I have no desire to spend any energy trying to filter out any information that may be of interest to me. I truly enjoy most of the posts to this BB and of the other science BBs that I subscribe to and I feel the use of my delete key to be far safer than someone moderating all of our messages because of a single individuals actions. To those who bashed my last message - please don't bother doing it again - it's hard enough being a scientist without having to also filter through this "stuff". Lets get back to science - the threads have been great lately!!!! Thank you Missy (a.k.a. Michaela) \o/ --/~\-- |0 0| / \ / \ mheeb@darwin.bio.uci.edu / \ Dept. of Psychobiology | | University of California \ / Irvine \ / | |________/ The following single communication is the letter of apology I sent to Michaela. It is also the "couple" of "even more offensive" communications that she claims to have received! There only being the one letter. I had no idea that Michaela was going to be quite so implacably affronted or I would not have inmagined that I could discuss posterior pituitry physiology on a point of genuine interest to me and the lady who experienced it. To: mheeb@sanger.bio.uci.edu Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:01:12 Subject: Re: Apology From: robin@coape.win-uk.net (ROBIN E WALKER) REPLY-TO: robin@coape.win-uk.net Private communication Dear Michaela, I have posted my apology on the net and I mean it. I would point out that the post you were affronted by was marked "private response" which means that I expected it NOT to be forwarded by the recipient! It also means that I thought it was only RECEIVED by the recipient. Harking back to an earlier correspondance on posterior pituitary hormones; a friend of mine who is a medical journalist rang me with the observation that she experiences profound depression in the first 30 seconds of suckling her 5 week old baby. I am intrigued by this. I wonder if you know why this might be? Could it be in any way related to the phenomenon known as "postcoital tristesse"? It is part of the mechanism which interferes with memory? Might a "flash bulb" memory have a counterpart in a "flash bulb" depression which blocks rather than enhances memory? Yours sincerely Robin Walker There it is. The entire correspondence. Judge for yourselves whether all this vitriol is necessary! From: IN%"ALund@ZI.KU.DK" "Lund, Anders {ZI}" 24-APR-1995 06:01:37.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ISAE-net" CC: Subj: RE: Original sender in MSmail Dear fellow subscribers! I you use the microsoft mail and you wish to know who sent the message and the note is not signed the following can be done: In the msmail.ini file (which is probably located in the windows directory) under the heading [microsoft mail] enter one line saying; stripgatewayheaders=0. This will give you several lines of the routes of the message and also the original sender. Yours Anders Lund From: IN%"libby@imsci.demon.co.uk" 24-APR-1995 07:26:28.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: iob dear all, as you may know, ISAE is affiliated to the IOB (Institute of Biology). There is a meeting of the affilated societies forum in London on Tuesday 9th May. This will be quite an important meeting, the idea being to set up "clusters" i.e. little sub-groups of societies with related interests. Unfortunately, I can't go - is there anyone out there who would like to represent the Society and go to this meeting? It should be possible to reimburse travel expenses out of regional funds (n.b. this offer does not apply to ISAE members in Saskatchewan). Please contact me asap if you are interested, via this network or tel. 01491 875553. libby hunter -- Dr Elizabeth Hunter From: IN%"NZPZR009@SIVM.SI.EDU" "Kathy Carlstead" 24-APR-1995 12:39:20.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dear All, I wish to add my voice to that of "Joy, Moira and Missy". As a long-time member of this network I have silently enjoyed many stimulating discussions of topics in applied ethology and benefitted from the frequent updates on ongoing research. I would like to continue participation, but when I am forced on a daily basis to wade through the piles of messages to remove those that are unprofessional, gender-insensitive, and down-right silly, I question whether being a part of this network is worth it. If this were "real life" instead of a computer network, I for one would not remain for long in a discussion group peppered with gender-derogatory "humor". Maybe everybody should try harder not to be so "funny". Kathy Carlstead National Zoological Park Smithsonian Institution Washington DC 20008 From: IN%"REPRO@nbc.upenn.edu" 24-APR-1995 13:16:01.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Three Sisters Thank you Joy, Moira, Missy, and Alice. Congratulations on your courage to speak out. I too have been offended and surprised by the Old Boys' stuff, but had resigned to ignoring it and hoping it would go away. Sue McDonnell, University of Pennsylvania From: IN%"sline@isnet.is.wfu.edu" "Scott Line" 24-APR-1995 16:08:17.67 To: IN%"NZPZR009@SIVM.SI.EDU" "Kathy Carlstead" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: censorship, netiquette, etc. On Mon, 24 Apr 1995, Kathy Carlstead wrote: > Dear All, > > I wish to add my voice to that of "Joy, Moira and Missy". I'm another mostly silent member of the list that's been moved to add to the debate on what constitutes proper virtual behavior. There seems to be a paucity of male voices objecting to slang that is demeaning to women, and I thought it was time to add one. I'm all in favor of humor (I particularly liked the recent discussion of Jeff Rushen's caffeine addiction) and maintaining a casual tone, but not when it causes offense to a significant portion of the list membership. If sloppy use of language causes people to stay silent, or quit the list in digust, then we are all worse off. On the other hand, I for one am not yet ready for a list moderator/censor. I think a little more reflection and sensitivity is in order on the part of everyone, and would go a long way toward maintaining a professional level of communication. Cheers, Scott Line, DVM, PhD sline@isnet.is.wfu.edu Dept of Comparative Medicine Bowman Gray School of Medicine Medical Center Blvd. Winston-Salem NC 27157-1040 From: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" 24-APR-1995 23:02:09.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Sexual Harassment and Censorship This message is addressed primarily to the male members of the network. I have two objectives in sending this messages: 1) to state strongly that recent messages that contain sexual inferences are totally inappropriate and 2) to encourage other male members to take an active role in showing their displeasure with those who abuse the network. References to women in terms of their sexual anatomy is an age-old form of censorship by males, even when cloaked in humor. This point was once strongly made to me by a female graduate student. She complained that in a seminar she and all other women present became socially (and professionally) isolated from the male- dominated main group when a slide of a semi-nude woman had been shown followed by so-called humorous comments from the males about the woman's breasts. This student considered it sexual harassment. My first reaction was that she was over-reacting. After some continued discussion with her, however, I realized that she was correct. The males in the group had in fact isolated and silenced the females. Similar references on the network are ultimately not meant to be funny as claimed by their senders. Instead, such references serve to continue to isolate females from the group. By silencing females, male dominance can be maintained. Moria Harris was correct in stating that certain exchanges on this network have been completely inappropriate. As for a solution to the problem that Moria identified, I believe that we males must speak out in opposition to the inappropriate actions of the offending males. Accordingly, I want it known that I strongly object to the recent male display of inappropriate references to female anatomy and other attempts to place women into a secondary role or different category on this network. Ethology is a discipline in which females have contributed as much, if not more, than males. As a teacher, I make this known to both my male and female students. Also, as a father, I intend to do as much as possible to bring about a society in which my daughter's role and position will _not_ be determined on the basis of her sex and _certainly not_ on the basis of her sexual anatomy. Thus, I acknowledge that my interests in this topic extend considerably beyond this network. There is one male on the network in particular against whom I believe we should take strong action. This person identifies himself as a British veterinarian. While he is not the only offender, he is the most blatant and has not been responsive to previous calls for moderation in his actions. I no longer believe his pleas of being misunderstood, claims of inadvertent responses to the network instead of privately, and excuses based on poor typing skills. As a solution to the problem, when I see his name on my computer screen, I intend to delete his messages without reading them. To make sure there are no doubts as to whom I am referring, I am sending him a personal message informing him that I consider his contribution to the network unprofessional and sexist and that in the future I will neither read nor respond to his messages. I do not wish to see the entire group become monitored because of the actions of a few individuals. Therefore, I would suggest that others join me in acting and speaking out against such behavior. I suggest that messages be addressed personally to any offender and that we not clog the network with this topic, important as it is. I ask others to join me in working to keep the network a professionally responsible vehicle for those who truly are interested in advancing the discipline of applied ethology. Sincerely, W. Ray Stricklin Associate Professor Department of Animal Sciences University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 USA Voice (301)-4051382 Fax (301)-314-9059 ws31@umail.umd.edu P.S. As was suggested previously by another "network policeman", I have waited and cooled for 48 hours after preparing the first draft of this message and hope that it is now worded appropriately. From: IN%"APN6JMF@SOUTH-01.NOVELL.LEEDS.ac.uk" "Mike Forbes" 25-APR-1995 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Moderation Even if moderation was desirable, it is quite impractical. What happens if the moderator is away for a few days? Can (s)he persuade a colleague to take on the onerous job? Do messages pile up until (s)he returns? No, let irresponsible messagers be ignored. It is obvious that many messages that appear are intended for individuals and get to the network by mistake. The onus is on all of us to make sure that only those messages intended for the whole group get broadcast. ------------------------------------------------ Professor Mike Forbes, Department of Animal Physiology and Nutrition, University of Leeds LS2 9JT, UK Email: j.m.forbes@leeds.ac.uk Phone: +44 (0113) 2333053 Fax: +44 (0113) 2333072 From: IN%"ALund@ZI.KU.DK" "Lund, Anders {ZI}" 25-APR-1995 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ISAE-net" CC: Subj: RE: Censorship Dear All! I think it was a little more than a year ago when some members of the network started to make many scenarios and scrips for plays with a more or less relevant content. At that time there were advocates of a censorship, because "other" people, i.e. non ethologists could read on the net and get a bad impression. I then suggested that in the interest of the free word that any censorship would be negative, it is better to suffer a few irrelevant comments and delete them yourself. I this case individuals has been offended by what has been called sexist remarks. Whereas I, personally, being a male of course, does not find them more than silly I strongly hold the position that out of respect for the persons or persons' feelings that have been hurt that such remarks should be called back and apologised for, no comments added. You may well call this self censorship, and it is, but there is absolutely no problem with that as long as we are talking about having a civil communication and no scientific principles are involved. Please, Robin since you seem to be the culprit this time, could I suggest your humorous vein take some other direction? If people get hurt by your funny remarks, I would think they do not serve their purpose. Yours Anders Lund From: IN%"F.Toates@open.ac.uk" "F.Toates (Fred Toates)" 25-APR-1995 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: purpose and stimulus-response Dear All, Standing by the side-lines and reading the interesting exchanges, I am now tempted to add a few thoughts. On the question of purpose, I cannot see how a living behavioural system could work without goal-directed behaviour. I don't really understand McFarland's alternative notions (Cf. Jeff Rushen's communication). If anyone can explain them to me, I would be grateful. I understand that some systems might be goal-achieving without being goal-directed. For example, as I understand it, the immune system follows this principle. When a cell of the immune system contacts its 'target' then its goal has been achieved. The cell might even have a representation (immune memory) of its target. However, it is not in any sense (as far as I know) guided and steered by disparity between its representation and the target tissue. The body fluid systems permit such goal-achieving to happen without there being goal-direction. However, I believe that behavioural systems could not work along similar lines. There is nothing analogous to the body fluids to restrain the course of action of the system. There is nothing like the multiplicity of immune cells that allow the immune system to achieve a goal. What steers the animal towards the goal if not a representation of that goal. One cannot rely upon an optimal series of stimulus-response connections since these would need to change with such circumstances as muscle fatigue, wind speed, tilting of a maze by the experimenter. The computation needed to make this work would be formidable indeed and would, by comparison, make the goal-directed alternative system seem a trivial engineering feat. I believe that at the top level of a hierarchy of behavioural control there are abstract cognitions, goals and lower levels become more like stimulus-response processes. I agree with Jon Cooper when he suggests that "A stimulus-response model of the control of behaviour can be used to explain the performance of stereotypies..". I believe that with repetition of a certain behaviour, the sensitivity of low level circuits increases and cognitions come to play less of a role in the control of behaviour. I also agree with something that Georgia Mason wrote some time ago that ultimately stereotypies can even become autonomous of stimulus control. I have produced a few papers outlining these ideas and I would be happy to send copies to any interested network reader. I shall also publish a book later this year which will outline these ideas in greater detail. Having said all that about goals and cognition I do have a soft spot for what I believe I saw one day from Per Jensen (either that or I imagined I saw it. Either way I want to make my point). I think they were behaviourist sentiments of Per or if they were not really behaviourist then I share what I think is his scepticism for much of the cognitive enterprise. Permit me to digress onto my favourite theme, cognitive psychology, for a moment. I am at heart an unreconstructed Skinnerian who wears cognitive clothes in order to earn my salary. I do not believe that the cognitive revolution/obsession has been an unmitigated good for either psychology nor ethology. For every person in psychology playing with Skinner boxes I imagine there are about a hundred playing with AI/computers/cognition. In my view the end-product has not justified the effort. The cognitive revolution has caused us to look for ever more esoteric problems while we shun the behaviourist solutions, while the garbage continues to pile up on the streets and crime soars. Whether this ramblings of a fair-weather Skinnerian are relevant to applied ethology I do not know. Regards, Fred From: IN%"ir10000@hermes.cam.ac.uk" "I. Rochlitz" 25-APR-1995 06:27:46.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: censorship I would like to add my voice to those from across the Atlantic, regarding the depths to which the network has sunk. I am new to applied ethology, and have enjoyed and benefitted from the discussions on the network, and also made useful contacts. However in recent weeks, due to the increasingly reprehensible messages from a number of 'members', a distinct feeling of unease coupled with a definite sense of exclusion, has crept in. I don't think having a moderator is the solution, nor is a responsive delete key (although it helps). Let's aim to restore the applied-ethology network to its previous standard, and then aim even higher. Thank you, and have a nice day :-) Irene Rochlitz MRCVS Dept of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, Univ of Cambridge, U.K. From: IN%"IDUNCAN@APS.UoGuelph.CA" 25-APR-1995 07:11:16.34 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Censorship Dear All, I am surprised that more readers of this network are not doing their own censorship. Three or four messages from Robin Walker were enough to convince me that I didn't want to read any more of that despicable rubbish. I now delete those messages without reading and suspect that others do the same. Moira et al. should take heart that many males may be supporting them with the ultimate sanction - one press of the delete key. Yours, Ian Duncan From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 25-APR-1995 09:55:23.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology Network'" CC: Subj: Offensive Language Dear Moira et.al: I want you to know that I routinely delete any message on the network that contains offensive language. As soon as I see Walker's name, its gone! Ed Price University of California, Davis From: IN%"louzhen@herald.usask.ca" "Dr. Zhensheng Lou" 25-APR-1995 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Censorship? To be in short, my voice is: 1. Censorship is even worse than some occasional net abuse; 2. As a free net, abuse in various forms is a common phenominon. The wise solution to this is to do as what Ian Duncan is doing: take a second to delete the measage instead of spending hours to talk about it; 3. People have different personality, or are using different words. It will be quite boring of this world that everyone looks like an identical peas in a pod. If someone is considered as a `regular' offender, he/she is regarded by the community as a `statistically bad guy'. Does this punishment fits the `crime'? If he/she is not so `regularly' or even just careless, would you forgive and then ignore him/her? Z. Lou From: IN%"di-bushong@tamu.edu" 25-APR-1995 10:58:11.97 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: re:sexual harassment and censorship Thank you Dr. Strickland for your intelligent remarks concerning the recent "humorous" behavior occurring on this network. Your comments about such behavior being a form of censorship and isolation hit the mark exactly. That you are able to publicly share your depth of understanding of this behavior with others of your own gender and are not afraid of retaliatory censorship yourself gives me hope that such "humorless" behavior will in the future be something discussed only amongst historians of human ethology. I also congratulate those women who have spoken out against this type of behavior. In the past, women have endured in silence or even nervously laughed along during episodes of this type of censorship, in some cases believing that to speak up would alienate them from the group--usually predominately male. Such behavior on the part of women often gave the impression that they were not offended or even that they were partaking in the "humor". I have been around quite a few years in the Agricultural field and admit that I have in the past perhaps given male colleagues the idea that such "humor" is acceptable by my desire to "fit in". Age sometimes brings with it less fear of censorship and often the self- confidence to call a joke a joke and sexual censorship what it is. Male colleagues often tell me that they don't know where the boundaries are anymore. "So when is it humor and when is it sexual harrassment?? How are we to know?" they sometimes ask. My answer is: You must know your audience. From my observations of comedians, I would say that a truly good comedian--one who makes the most people laugh most of the time-- gauges his/her audience as (s)he performs and changes humor tactics as the situation requires. I believe it is propably impossible for any would-be comedian to gauge the applied-ethology network's audience accurately; I would suggest that the subscribers to this network come from backgrounds and interests too varied. However, we all seem to be interested in the subject of ethology (hence our subscribing to this network). A good comedian would surely know that ethology might be the best topic in which to find the brand of humor that would make the majority of this audience smile or chuckle. Just my thoughts on what seems to be the behavior currently being discussed (I guess we can dissect human behavior as well as animal behavior). Diana Bushong Texas A&M University Applied Ethology email address: di-bushong@tamu.edu From: IN%"wattsjon@herald.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 25-APR-1995 12:39:04.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Censorship I haven't read anything on this list yet that would justify censorship. However, I have read things that I wished people hadn't written. Stephen Easley's poetry falls into this category. Graduates of the Al Bundy school of political correctness may not take this issue very seriously. But, in a public forum at least, they ought to show some respect for those that do. I can't believe that Easley didn't anticipate that someone would be angered by his message. So was that his objective? Maybe, maybe not, but either way he would have done better to have kept it to himself, or as a private joke with his mates in the pub rather than than making an uncomfortable and entirely unnecessary situation worse. Jon Watts wattsjon@duke.usask.ca From: IN%"ABECK@vm.cc.purdue.edu" "ALAN M. BECK" 25-APR-1995 13:00:10.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dignified networking I have participated on the network to seek opinions and insights, and learn some about new areas of study. I am embarrassed that I have not added my voice to those addressing the issue of censorship of the network and rude messages. I agree that censorship may not be appropriate, though some reminders of guidelines may be necessary. I am embarrassed that I did not address the crude and sexist remarks, for I fear my silence may have indicated agreement. The real reason is that I unconsiously started to ignore them. When the messages become silly I just briefly scanning them and when they became stupid, I stopped reading them all together, hence did not appreciate their bigotry--and I am sorry. The wide condemnation of those stupid and insensitive messages is encouraging, and hopefully, instructive. PURDUE School of Veterinary Medicine phone 317/494-0854 UNIVERSITY West Lafayette, IN 47907-1243 fax 317/494-9830 From: IN%"DEPASSILLEAM@EM.AGR.CA" "Anne Marie De Passille" 25-APR-1995 14:41:30.54 To: IN%"IDUNCAN@APS.UoGuelph.CA", IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Censorship -REPONSE Dear all, I was glad to read Ian. I have been making good use of the delete key. It saves time and cortisol. Anne Marie de Passille From: IN%"RWOLFE@uga.cc.uga.edu" "randy" 25-APR-1995 14:56:51.59 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction Hi, I have been "eavesdropping" on the network for about a month and was just about to unsubscribe due to the content of some of the contributions. The comments made by William Stricklin, Ian Duncan, and others regarding inappropriate, no... offensive, contributions made me reconsider. I feel that some of the discussions are thought provoking and most are stimulating. With that said, I guess I should introduce myself. I am in the Biopsychology graduate program at the University of Georgia. My primary interest is in feral cats. I am, at present, collecting data on a group which has a core area around a dairy farm. Additionally, I am a research assistant in a study on "enrichment" of laboratory animals. I am also taking coursework and participating in clinics for animals with behavior problems as part of the requirements for certification as an Applied Animal Behaviorist. From: IN%"mrenner@wcupa.edu" "Renner, Michael" 25-APR-1995 15:25:15.90 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology List'" CC: Subj: Humor Just as Diana Bushong has suggested that good comedians "recalibrate" their approach as they get feedback from the audience, folks in net discussion groups can learn to infer how others respond to their posts. Something that strikes many as funny often generates replies, attempts at one-upping, and other forms of follow-up. Something that was intended as funny that draws only electronic silence probably wasn't perceived as clever, and may have offended. Some messages, on the other hand, are SO far beyond the pale that I'll suggest the following innovation in software design: The next round of e-mail software should automatically report back what percentage of one's posts are (a) deleted without being read at all, and (b) read, but responded to with a new "Shun this individual" button (that I'm suggesting be added). With these handy tools, the net participant could get some of the feedback we lose without body language, social reinforcement, and public stonings. It's still a new communication medium, and it will probably take awhile to develop workable conventions. Of course, there's no stopping the truly insensitive. Unless we bring back public stonings . . . ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Michael J. Renner Department of Psychology West Chester University West Chester, PA 19383 Voice: 610-436-2925 Fax: 610-436-3150 Internet: MRenner@Wcupa.Edu From: IN%"ujhhtpo@ucl.ac.uk" "ujhhtpo" 26-APR-1995 05:26:19.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Marine mammals and noise Dear All We are very interested in obtaining information on the effects of noise disturbance on pinnipeds, cetaceans and farmed fish. Any help would be appreciated. References, anecdotes and experience all welcome. If using e-mail, please reply to the personal e-mail address given below so as to avoid burdening other members of the group. Robert Hubrecht/ Vicky Taylor trevor.poole@ucl.ac.uk U U FFFFF A W W UFAW U U F A A W W 8 Hamilton Close U U FFFFF AAAAAA W W W South Mimms U U F A A W W W W Potters Bar UUUU F A A W W Herts, U.K. UFAW is a scientific and technical charity dedicated to improving Animal Welfare. Tel. +44 (0)1707 658202 Fax. +44 (0)1707 649279 _____________________________________________________________________ From: IN%"rhb11@hermes.cam.ac.uk" "R.H. Bradshaw" 26-APR-1995 05:55:07.36 To: IN%"ir10000@hermes.cam.ac.uk" "I. Rochlitz" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: censorship I have been away from the net for a while and mostly silently listen. I have been through a series of messages regarding moderation and wish to comment. Those people who persist in lowering the generally useful academic exchange on this network must know that their comments are offensive. Their behaviour must be stated as wholely unacceptable. I find it very sad that the network is even having this discussion. One solution may be as follows: if a person or number of people are repeatedly offensive then they should, if possible, be expelled from the network. This could be done at the place where the network is run (if technology allows). We could decide what is deamed offensive (if it is not already obvious to the few) by having someone asking the question and having members e-mail that person direct. If say X (a certain percentage of the net) agree that this person id repeatedly offending then they are warned and subsequently removed. This will not PREVENT offence but will allow some sanction over those who do not cease their remarks. What do you think? Let's get back to the study of applied ethology. I notice my own behaviour has been effected by the sinking of the net work to offensive and sexist remarks as I am tending to delete alot of messages and never used to. None of us wish to leave the net or view it as a 'waist of time' so let's have a 'shape up or ship out' policy and get ourselves cleaned up. If this has already been suggested then I apologise but I haven't read all my recent messages. Wishing you all many fruitful discussions; Harry Bradshaw Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge. From: IN%"Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se" 26-APR-1995 08:55:38.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Gender and ethology Hi again, I'm not going to add on to all comments regarding netiquette, most of the things having been said lately are wise and agreeable (except for the plea for central censorhip, which is obviously not a well-considered suggestion). However, another issue comes into my mind when reading the debate: When I came in to this business of Applied Ethology about 17 years ago (my God, I'm getting old!!!), ethology students were generally males. In my university course, 3 out of 25 (I think) students were females. When I came to the vet faculty, I found that about 80% of the students were males. In the eighties, things reversed completely. Today, about 80% of the vet students are females, and in the pure ethology courses, both in zoology and animal science, the bias is even stronger. I have not had a male final year student for years. This winter, our ethology research group in Skara consisted of two men (me and one more) and ten women (including guest researchers). Is this development a global phenomenon? Why is it so? (Please don't give me all that stuff about females being more 'soft' and 'protective' and therefore having more animal interest - if so, that was also true in the seventies.) Is it a problem? (I'm not sure, but I suspect that mixed-sex environments will be more creative and interesting). To follow up - where do all the women go? In Sweden, there is a clear male bias the higher you get on the academic ladder. On internet, males obviously dominate. Is it just a question of time? Since I have observed this change-over in the last decade or so, maybe the women will catch up on the top positions within few years? However, I must admit, I have not observed any female bias on the conferences I have attended the last few years. Could be interesting to hear some experiences from other countries. Per ******************************************************************* Per Jensen Professor of Ethology __/\______________9 Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences,\ o I Department of Animal Hygiene, \- I Section of Ethology \_______________I SKARA, SWEDEN /\ /\ E-mail: Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se / \ / \ ******************************************************************* From: IN%"LPINHEIRO@APS.UoGuelph.CA" 26-APR-1995 09:13:23.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: censorship About the following comment: > One solution may be as follows: if a person or number of people are > repeatedly offensive then they should, if possible, be expelled from the > network. This could be done at the place where the network is run (if > technology allows). We could decide what is deamed offensive (if it is > not already obvious to the few) by having someone asking the question and > having members e-mail that person direct. If say X (a certain percentage > of the net) agree that this person id repeatedly offending then they are > warned and subsequently removed. This will not PREVENT offence but will > allow some sanction over those who do not cease their remarks. > > What do you think? I don't want to be impolite with anybody, but I don't agree with the above idea. I think I would NEVER belong to a list that adopt this procedure. This is more than censorship, this is a dictatorship of "political correctness" (who defines that?). As Dr Stricklin said, I also have daughters and I don't want them to live in a world where they would be discriminated because their sexes. But I also don't want them to live in a world of censorship, or in a "police state". > > Let's get back to the study of applied ethology. I notice my own That is a GREAT suggestion. As for myself, I don't intend to proceed with the debate generated by few offensive msgs. Lets use our time better. Best Regards, L. Carlos Pinheiro Machado Luiz Carlos Pinheiro Machado Filho Univ. Federal de Santa Catarina University of Guelph CCA - Dep. de Zootecnia Dep. of Animal & Poultry Sci. Florianopolis, S.C. - BRASIL Guelph, ONT - CANADA Bolsista CNPq - Brasil Sponsored by CNPq - Brazil From: IN%"zucker@beta.loyno.edu" "Evan Zucker" 26-APR-1995 09:57:00.23 To: IN%"Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se" "Per Jensen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Gender and ethology Not a direct answer to your questions, but perhaps a place to start is with a paper by Fedigan about women in primatology. Fedigan, L. M. (1994) Science and the successful female: Why there are so many women primatologists. AMERICAN ANTHROPOLOGIST, 96: 529-540. E. Zucker Dept. of Psychology Loyola University New Orleans, LA 70118 USA zucker@beta.loyno.edu From: IN%"harrism@sask.usask.ca" 26-APR-1995 11:55:42.90 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "etho-list" CC: IN%"harrism@sask.usask.ca" "u -- harrism" Subj: "Censorship" (list moderation) and Per's comment Dear all, First, thank you all for taking the time to send your comments about sexism, censorship and all the rest. I am incredibly encouraged that so many people have expressed their obviously genuine distaste at these right-off messages, and offered their ideas about how to prevent them. Also, I do realize this discussion is dragging on a bit, and is not strictly ethology-related. Can I correct one small misunderstanding? I originally proposed the idea of list moderation, not because I necessarily am in favour of it, but to see what everyone else thought. Apparently most people would not go for the idea of list moderation at this time, and that's OK. With reference to Per's comments about gender and science, I think what he has observed is part of a larger phenomenon within science, and other disciplines. Women are over-represented in the lower echelons (students, graduate students), but under-represented in faculty and more senior research positions. Why? Two possible reasons, the first is Per's own: that women have come into our discipline in greater numbers only relatively recently, and it will take some time for them to move to senior positions. However, there is certainly another force operating, that of women's place in society... despite our recent advances in gender equality, the home situations of many or most women still remain quite traditional - ie mothers are the primary caregivers for most children. Thus, the career progression for women scientists is often disrupted or even terminated because of their family committments. Certainly, having one or more small children doesn't make it easier to finish a graduate degree! On the other hand, male scientists (and teachers, and lawyers, and doctors) traditionally had the support of a home-making spouse, able to re-locate with her husband's various career moves. This situation has changed somewhat in recent years, but not as much as many people might think. - Moira Harris From: IN%"JSWANSON@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" "JANICE SWANSON" 26-APR-1995 14:35:19.26 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"harrism@sask.usask.ca" "u -- harrism" Subj: RE: Re: "Censorship" (list moderation) and Per's comment I agree with Moira's assessment of why women are not well represented at the top. I have observed that family has a significant impact on advancement. We have worked diligently at KSU to attract women into high positions. I have personally been on two search committees where we have selected women of outstanding credentials, and have very nearly gotten them on board, when the husband's career becomes a significant problem. In both instances the women chose to stay in their current job. Tenure clocks for women may differ from men due to maternity leave or family care. Some Universities are instituting policies to allow the clock to stop and restart. This has been met with criticisms from males who feel that this is unfair. So what's the option -- if you want to move up do not have children. There are women who are taking this option because they see no other alternative for advancement. There are many who choose to have children and are frustrated for being penalized for a biological function. This is not a phenonmenon that is exclusive to Universities. Female executives are hard to get and sometimes hard to keep. The business world is exploring many options for diversifying their work force gender wise. Some have gone to providing employment for spouses or giving compensation for lost income for a specified period of time. The bottom line is that women have gained access but many of the bugs ( and traditions) have yet to be worked out of the system. Janice Swanson From: IN%"CROWELL-DAVIS.S@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 26-APR-1995 15:21:12.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Per's and Moira's comments Moira Harris commented- With reference to Per's comments about gender and science, I think what he has observed is part of a larger phenomenon within science, and other disciplines. Women are over-represented in the lower echelons (students, graduate students), but under-represented in faculty and more senior research positions. Why? Two possible reasons, the first is Per's own: that women have come into our discipline in greater numbers only relatively recently, and it will take some time for them to move to senior positions. However, there is certainly another force operating, that of women's place in society... despite our recent advances in gender equality, the home situations of many or most women still remain quite traditional - ie mothers are the primary caregivers for most children. Thus, the career progression for women scientists is often disrupted or even terminated because of their family committments. Certainly, having one or more small children doesn't make it easier to finish a graduate degree! On the other hand, male scientists (and teachers, and lawyers, and doctors) traditionally had the support of a home-making spouse, able to re-locate with her husband's various career moves. This situation has changed somewhat in recent years, but not as much as many people might think. - Moira Harris There is a third force operating, which is the age-old discrimination on the basis of gender, in spite of equivalent (or better) qualifications and abilities. It may be illegal (at least in many countries), illogical and unethical, but it still happens. -Sharon Crowell-Davis crowell-davis.s@calc.vet.uga.edu From: IN%"lhenley@sunmuw1.muw.edu" "Lani Lyman-Henley" 26-APR-1995 19:50:19.80 To: IN%"Joy_A_MENCH@umail.umd.edu" "jm59" CC: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Breasts I just wanted to toss in my $.02 worth- I am a female (last I checked at least) and have not been perturbed in the least by the latest flashes of typos, etc. Frankly, I thought some of it pretty funny. Just so you don't think *all* women are bothered by it, let alone "defecting" from the list. And by all means, let's not start approaching censorship. The delete key works wonders for personal editorial commentary. Lani Lyman-Henley lhenley@sunmuw1.muw.edu Division of Science & Math Mississippi University for Women (and smart men, too!) Columbus, MS 39701 ------------------------------------------------------------------ "Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake." -Napoleon From: IN%"ELISA@tphys.nov.uni-bayreuth.de" "Elisabeth Petzold-Dorn" To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: re:Jan,Per and Sharon Dear all, 1) as a mother of two little children I do it like Jan and press the delete key for unqualified discussion, because I have not enough time for such a humor... 2) I think in Germany is the same proportion of males and females in the science like in Sweden. The problem is, that females are very interested in complex subjects and want to have an overview about scientifical themes "per se" and study biology,e.g. But mostly they fail to accept the politics in the scientifical reality, because they dont't have the same feeling of hierarchy-thinking like males. If they have a family they want to "connect" their different interests, and don`t favour some of it. But this is a bad start for a carrier, because there is no motivation for the "one great aim"! 3)Female academics often become mother later than others( I am such a case), because they finish first their studies. But in our German (?) society there is no need for an "elderly" person with children in the world of labour and we must persue science as a hobby. No good chance for a scientific carrier! Best regards Elisabeth Caution: Who wants to answer in a slanderous way, will be deleted, see no.1! From: IN%"pdkaio@pobox.ruu.nl" 27-APR-1995 04:01:20.04 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Stereotypies in mice Dear all, Perhaps I missed a part of the stereotypies discussion (I have a trigger happy delete finger too), but I am still looking for an answer to this question. It regards the use of lab mice. If stereotypies are a form of (succesful?) coping, should we prefer using stereotype-prone mice, or not? Considering that other mice suffer from the same problems, like the mine horses. Do other mice suffer invisibly? I have looked into the problem of whisker trimming, epecially in A2G mice. This behaviour seems to be a coping strategy to me. A2G mice are most likely predisposed on a genetic base. I came to the conclusion that we should use stereotype-prone mice as a tool, to test husbandry systems and try to improve them. But meanwhile... For our side-kick (?) discussion on women in science, I would like to give you some food for thought. My wife was laid back last year from a post-doc position because of her pregnancy; this was done by her WOMAN boss, who was PREGNANT herself at that time! She gained legal satisfaction, but no job. How do WE cope? I guess I can suggest her to bite my whiskers. See if that helps. Frank van den Broek * Department of Laboratory Animal Science * * Utrecht University * * PO. Box 80.166, 3508 TD Utrecht ( ) ( ) * * The Netherlands 0 0 * * phone: ++ 31 30 532033 = o = * * fax: ++ 31 30 537997 * * Replacement, Reduction and Refinement of Animal Experiments * From: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" 27-APR-1995 09:43:53.59 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Deviant views on t.ts/b.ms, censorship, and this list Applied-ethology's first public stoning of a contributor, and the subsequent orgy of self-reflection, appears to have passed its crescendo and moved onto more interesting topics, so I may as well add my deviant bit before it's too late. I find it troublesome when people fall over themselves to agree with each other, so I am going off for a stroll out near this sign here which says "Danger. Thin ice. Angels won't tread here." As we stand round contemplating the battered, bleeding (and apparently silenced) corpse of the "vet from the UK", let us ask ourselves: "did we overreact"? A number of contributors have suggested that we are not big enough to deal ourselves with inappropriate messages via the good old "delete" but that some action should be taken to stop us from ever seeing such messages. "Moderation" is one solution. This word evokes the word "censorship", but moderated lists are common and function quite well, as long as people realize that is what they are. I am going to put in a vote for *eventual* moderation. I was very enthusiastic about this list when it was set up, and on some days I still am. But increasingly I ask myself if it is really working, or whether it should be replaced by something more organized. Since I have spent some effort herding this list along, I feel I have some claim on your time to express my mental ramblings on the future of our electronic communication. Maintaining a list costs the list owner time and the use of computer resources. The list owner has a perfect right to moderate a list if they so wish. We are all busy people with clogged email boxes, and the sheer volume of mail is the main factor which drives people to leave a list. It is clear that many people on this list, like me, are busily thumping away on the delete button, which throws into question the value of our discussions. One function of this list is to help circulate ISAE material and we certainly don't want ISAE people to leave. At various times we have considered a separate, closed, and moderated list to serve this purpose, so that people can drop off applied-ethology if they can't handle the traffic. So far, no-one has felt this is necessary, but the day is obviously coming. In such a case, we would need to find a moderator (not easy), make them accountable, and equip them with some simple rules. Since we deal with political matters we want to make sure that discussion of vegetarianism, or research showing that pre- slaughter stress improves meat quality, aren't "moderated". It might also help to have a publicly accessible garbage bin so that people can access the refused messages if they desire. If we want to keep an open-access list, we could consider switching to a USENET discussion group which people can access when they wish. Alternatively we could use the WWW for posting ISAE material, and organized discussion, and let this list sink or swim. For moderation, we would need to agree on the rules first. What rules should be followed in selecting individual contributions? I suggest three. Messages should be refused if they are irrelevant, take up too much space and consist of personal attacks on other contributors. Possible "offensiveness" except in the form of personal attacks should not be a criterion. How would such rules have functioned in the last incident? I took out all the messages from my electronic garbage bin where I had thrown them unread, uncrumpled them, and read. Saying that inappropriate messages should be controlled sounds nice, but we don't all agree on what is appropriate. Here, for example, is my deviant view. The first message from the person in question would have been squelched since it was an inappropriate personal attack. The "tits and bums" message would have got through since it was a valid, but curiously phrased, attempt to explain a fairly obvious behavioural phenomenon, which occurs in farm animals and so is of relevance to applied-ethology. A moderator may have suggested some rewording. It didn't interest me personally so I chucked it into the rubbish bin. Gary Greenberg's message seems to me a totally innocent attempt to deal with this topic, and was in the human ethology tradition of Lorenz and Eibl-Eibesfelt. It got me thinking about the matter. It would have got through. The "message to Per", I also found offensive but I assumed that it was a personal reply and had been misdirected to the net. Into the rubbish bin. Moira Harris' "Boys Games" message would have been squelched since it was an inappropriate personal attack on a contributor (particularly Gary Greenberg), which, I am afraid, I found offensive (sorry Moira). Public attacks against a contributor that address the person rather than the intellectual content of the messages should be avoided. Also squelched: various discussions of typo's, examples of male gallantry in riding out to protect the women, confessions of guilt etc, on the grounds of "interesting but irrelevant". The prejudices women or anyone else experience are obviously of relevance in as much as they impact applied ethology. So, anyone going to vote for me as moderator? But the list is not moderated, and I doubt that it will be in the immediate future. Moderation kills off the sense of spontaneous discussion which can be essential in stimulating ideas. But if we opt for free-access, then we need ensure that it really is free- access. What alarms me are the suggestions that we should organize ourselves into self-appointed, armed citizen-vigilante groups, diligently scouring the net for offensive content, springing into postures of outrage, thunderously denouncing the senders and demanding they be withdrawn from the list. I thoroughly agree with the sentiments expressed by Ray and Scott (and I was there with you congratulating them for their well-aimed rocks, but in private). And I think it most appropriate that Joy Mench and others remind us what might offend. But at this point I must register my objection to the idea that people on this list have a right to try to stop other people posting a message simply because they (or a third person) find it offensive in some way. Free-access lists like this one certainly give the impression of sinking into the mire, which is why I think they eventually will end. But at the moment I am picking up enough useful information, and my crap-filter can handle the occasional dumb or offensive message. The waves of public criticism that often follow such messages, and the attempts at self-defense that they inevitably provoke, are what tax my "delete" finger, and my patience with most of the lists that I am still on. And if we reach the point where no-one is willing to open their mouths because of flying rocks then we may as well close up shop. We have managed without public stonings before. Should we moderate or have more? Jeff Rushen From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "ROBIN E WALKER" 27-APR-1995 09:57:32.28 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dear Some of You... Dear Some of You, "Thank you for your posts. Some have been, magisterial, kindly, perceptive, impressively reproving and even appreciative of the serious thoughts I have offered. There are clearly, fine intellects on this net whom I would not wish to offend and their advice is valued. The rest of you should delete NOW! Those of you who switch off before reading will have to ask others if you have been insulted. That moment when the puppy first attacks the hoover nozzle in a fearful/aggressive way is the instant when a majority of us succumb to the awful temptation to make a pass at the pup's tail with the feared nozzle. Behaviourally speaking it is a sin. When I discovered by chance that great, grown up biologists can be sent shrieking up onto their chairs clutching the petticoats of outrage, by the smallest mice words in the language; and that shining, knightly, Sir Poodle-Fakers would come pricking forth to defend the soppy demoiselles, I succumbed. I should not have. The battle I engage in is behavioural therapy. I listened in on you to discover insight and ammunition for understanding the war raging on the living room floor among parents, children and pets. I have read much humbug, soft science tricked out with brave statistical banners trying to look hard (mathematical peer pressure?), and come to the conclusion that mountains of ramstergig corpses have poor epitaphs in some doctorates. On the question of language I confess to a compulsive punning disorder. The pun, double entendre or spoonerism streaks backstage of my mind like Lady Macbeth in her nightie. I ignore them in my daily legitimate work. I am not obsessed with body parts. The distribution of adipose tissue in the human being is farcical and ludicrous. My woefully "substephenjaygouldian" and highly dispensible contribution to Upper Paleolithic studies on the subject of Femorogluteal Adiposity and its Adaptive Semiology was a dig at the ridiculous empoyment of human form in the sale of automobiles, so called art works and the torrent of pus that is currently soiling our cinemas. And some twaddle about Cause and Function. As to the snapping shut of little rat trap minds..sobeit. I won't prise against the springs of bigotry for the few stale scraps of cheese therein. ARE YOU READY? When the music stops..up on your chairs! My final observation is that unless you are going to remain indoors for safety, with all those declawed cats, you will need to develop a more balanced view of what constitutes misogyny, sexism and obscene language. If you do not, you will be regularly stretchered home in a swoon, from the shopping mall, the cinema, the naughty kids playground, the nice kids playground and in particular from any context where the help of behaviourists is urgently needed. Yours sincerely, Robin Walker From: IN%"lhenley@sunmuw1.muw.edu" "Lani Lyman-Henley" 27-APR-1995 To: IN%"aday@biology.bu.edu" "Cheryl Aday" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: sociobiology of gender & careers Meanwhile, I know of several academic couples who share time with small children, and with academics it is feasible. One spouse cares for baby on his/her low-campus day and switches with the partner for the others. One couple would switch at lunchtime, just before or after breast-feeding time. But should a woman decide her children are a higher priority than job advancement, *that* shouldn't be held against her either, as seems to be the case lately. Personally, I have yet to find whether I can even *have* children, so I don't know yet what I may do in this situation. I'll let y'all know if & when I find out. The current plan is for my husband to take a great deal of active involvement in child care (he is a psychologist, I am an ethologist in a biology department). Currently, the only thing interfering with my advancement is myself! *grin* Lani Lyman-Henley lhenley@sunmuw1.muw.edu Division of Science & Math Mississippi University for Women (and smart men, too!) Columbus, MS 39701 ------------------------------------------------------------------ "Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake." -Napoleon From: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" 27-APR-1995 18:21:38.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Successfully applied Ethology Dear Applied Ethologists: Last week in Indianapolis the "Animal Behavior and the Design of Livestock and Poultry Systems International Conference" met and was generally viewed as having been a successful event. There was a question, however, that arose within an informally organized discussion session that generated considerable dialogue but no real resolution. The question has to do with: "Name a production practice or facility design feature that arose directly from research results from applied ethology and give the reference." I have some ideas about how to answer this question for it is not the first time that I have been confronted with the issue. And there were several ideas presented at the meeting. I must admit, however, that I don't feel that I have an answer that is completely convincing to those who continue to doubt the value of applying the science of ethology to practices associated with the care and housing of animals. I would be interested in hearing how others answer this question. W. Ray Stricklin Department of Animal Sciences University of Maryland ws31@umail.umd.edu From: IN%"JSWANSON@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" "JANICE SWANSON" 28-APR-1995 07:22:19.87 To: IN%"lhenley@sunmuw1.muw.edu" "Lani Lyman-Henley" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: sociobiology of gender & careers Dear Lani, I do have a child and have managed to do quite well with my career. I can attribute that to a cooperative spouse and to employers who have been progressive enough to see that it has been beneficial to them to accomodate. The process is not without its bumps and bruises and headaches. Everbody gives something up. Unfortunately I have met persons who feel nothing should change otherwise they are being short-sheeted. This is a rather unrealistic expectation. Sounds as if you and your husband have taken the time to hash some of this out. Good idea. If you can and want to have a child I hope you do -- its well worth the effort. I hope your employer will be a forward thinking as mine have been. Janice Swanson From: IN%"Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se" 28-APR-1995 07:29:13.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Successfully applied Ethology Dear Ray and others, The question you pose is valid. One of the best examples I suppose is the Stolba family pen system. I would probably answer with two good examples from Sweden. First we have the so called "Vastgota-model" for group housing of lactating sows and piglets. In the best version, sows are kept in groups of 8-16 sows in large, straw-equipped pens (about 6-7 sqm/sow) from about one week before farrowing to weaning at five-six weeks. At farrowing, simple erectable farrowing pens are mounted along the walls and the sows can voluntarily enter at time of farrowing. About ten days pp the pens are dismounted, allowing the piglets to leave and interact with other piglets. The sows have continuously access to pens and the area outside. This system (or variations on the theme) is very common in Sweden today. Second example is loose housing of dairy cows with calves. The cows are kept loose in large, uninsulated, straw-equipped sheds. They are allowed to calve free in this area and to take care of their calves for some time after calving (a week or two). This system exists on only a few places. There's only one problem: these systems were developed by the farmers themselves and not as a result of an academic research project. However, the pioneers claim that they were inspired to try this from the research at our department on the natural behaviour of calves and pigs in semi-natural conditions. So, in some sense, applied ethology research has contributed to these systems. However, there is a another point to Ray's comment. What is the purpose of 'applied ethology'? I suppose developing new systems is one goal for some people, but not for me. I think applied ethology, as any normal science, should provide information and theories. For that reason, and for avoiding misconceptions regarding the nature of my own work, I sometimes prefer to talk about APPLICABLE ETHOLOGY. Development of systems is to some extent counter-intellectual. I have seen on more than occasion how people turn into inventors in its worst sense. From a critical scientist, prepared to change their minds if data show that they need, they turn into narrow-minded defenders of a particular system. "This is MY baby, if you tell me something is wrong with it, I will defend it with my life!". Even if I agree that now and then it's nice if something practical useful comes out of our science, I definitely think that this is not the yard-stick to measure its success with. We hould be judged mainly by means of the scientific achievements, generation of theories, etc. I'm not sure we will do so much better on that arena, but anyhow. Per PS NO moderation, please ******************************************************************* Per Jensen Professor of Ethology __/\______________9 Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences,\ o I Department of Animal Hygiene, \- I Section of Ethology \_______________I SKARA, SWEDEN /\ /\ E-mail: Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se / \ / \ ******************************************************************* From: IN%"rhb11@hermes.cam.ac.uk" "R.H. Bradshaw" 28-APR-1995 08:28:45.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Ratite Conference Call for papers: IMPROVING OUR UNDERSTANDING OF RATITES IN A FARMING ENVIRONMENT. AN INTERNATIONAL SCIENTIFIC CONFERENCE AT NEEDHAM HALL, UNIVERSITY OF MANCHESTER, ENGLAND, UK. 27th - 29th MARCH 1996. Papers will cover all aspects of the biology of ostriches, emus and rheas with emphasis on improving our scintific understanding of farming of these birds around the world. - Reproductive Biology and Incubaton - Nutrition - Anatomy - Behaviour - Physiology, biochemistry and genetics - Diseases and other veterinary aspects - Husbandry and production Keynote speakers will be invited to present talks on areas of particular interest. Inaddition, time will be allocated to papers from other researchers and limited space for posters will be available. Parties interested in giving a presentation at this conference are requested to submit a full descriptional abstract of a maximum of 600 words by 31st August 1995. All papers and posters presented at the meeting will be selected on scientific merit and the final programme will be published in Novemebr 1995. Full papers from invited lecturers and abstracts from other papers and posters presented at the conference will be included in a written proceedings availabel at the meeting. The conference is to be held in Manchester, England which has an International Airport and is well served by fast rail links to London and by an extensive road network. The conference will be residential and costs cover all accommodation and meals. Costs: Registration = 60.00 pounds sterling; Residential costs = 150.00 CORPORATE SPONSORSHIP IS WELCOMED. Further details on about the conference, booking forms and how to submit abstracts are available from: Dr Charles Deeming, Hangland Farm Ostriches Ltd, Upper Wardington, Banbury, Oxfordshire OX17 1SU, UK Fax: +44 - 1295 - 710628. PLEASE DIRECT ALL REQUESTS TO THE ADDRESS ABOVE AND NOT TO THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS. Thank you, Harry Bradshaw, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, Cambridge. From: IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu" 28-APR-1995 09:08:59.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: childcare and career A report published in the NY Times last October suggested that the husbands of spouses who worked, and who consequently took a greater role in childcare, were significantly less successful professionally than colleagues whose wives stayed at home with the kids. A further spanner in the sociobiological cost-benefit works! James Serpell PS: This has nothing to do with applied ethology. PPS: DOWN with moderation and censorship!! From: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" 28-APR-1995 09:55:33.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Successfully applied Ethology William R Stricklin wrote: "Name a production practice or facility design feature that arose directly from research results from applied ethology and give the reference." I wonder if the discontinued use of the electro-immobilizer for restraint in cattle and sheep (generally speaking) is the direct result of research by Rushen (1986a, b), Grandin et al (1985, 1986) and still others. It is not a production practice that "arose" in the sense that Ray was asking, but future use may have been prevented. If this is true, it says something about the contributions that come from applied ethology research. I believe that applied-ethology may have an impact upon the present day routine practices that may one day be discontinued. The allowing or disallowing of tail-docking of dairy cattle, for example, may depend upon the research conducted by Lindsay Matthews and his coworkers. I am just guessing here, but are not some of the changes in primate housing, housing of laboratory species, and the modern zoo environments the result of applied ethological research? Ray, I don't know about Maryland, but every producer group I speak to believes everything I tell them. It is just a matter of time, before the entire population of producers in the Western Provinces in Canada will have implemented changes based on applied-ethology research (some of the research may even have been yours! :) Bottom line, I am too young, naive, and optimistic to believe that there are not some producers who are interested in my work and advice, plus the work and advice of my colleagues. Your question smacks of pessimism, and I may be forced to delete your future messages if you don't start having a little faith in your field! :) Joe Stookey stookey@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"IDUNCAN@APS.UoGuelph.CA" 28-APR-1995 10:12:50.17 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Successfully applied ethology Dear All, I would think that the outstanding example of the successful application of ethological principles is the work of Temple Grandin. Her designs for handling facilities, crushes, chutes, slaughter houses, etc., etc. are all based on knowledge of behaviour and how the animal reacts to various stimuli. Another example might be the research done by a grad student of mine, Bruce Greenlees. The Jamesway Incubator Company commissioned Bruce and me to investigate the effects of natural incubation sounds on the hatching process. We recorded all the sounds (mechanical as well as vocal) made by incubating domestic hens from day 15 of incubation through to the early post-hatch period. The later part of this period also contained sounds from the developing embryos (mechanical and vocal). All the sounds were analyzed spectrographically, classified and made into 5 tapes which were then played back into an artificial incubator at specific times. This resulted in a significant synchronization of hatching and a strong suggestion of improved hatchability. The Jamesway Company have taken out world-wide patents on this process (which has delayed publication of results somewhat). A better synchronized hatch is beneficial in that it makes the decision on when to "pull" the hatch (i.e. take the chicks out the incubator) much easier - even without improved hatchability. Jamesway plan on including sound generating equipment (probably a CD!) in their next generation of incubators. Greenlees, B. 1993. Effects of enriching the acoustic environment during incubation on hatching and post-hatch chick responses. Unpublished MSc Thesis, University of Guelph. Yours, Ian Duncan From: IN%"shale@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu" "Steven L Hale" 28-APR-1995 10:30:44.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sexist language & censorship The following excerpt from Toni Morrison's Nobel Prize acceptance speech points out how sexist language is itself a form of censorship: Oppressive language does more than represent violence; it is violence; does more than represent the limits of knowledge; it limits knowledge. Whether it is obscuring state language or the faux language of mindless media; whether it is the proud but calcified language of the academy or the commodity-driven language of science; whether it is the malign language of law-without-ethics, or language designed for the estrangement of minorities, hiding its racist plunder in its literary cheek--it must be rejected, altered, and exposed. It is the language that drinks blood, laps vulnerabilities, tucks its fascist boots under crinolines of respectability and patriotism as it moves relentlessly toward the bottom line and the bottomed-out mind. Sexist language, racist language, theistic language--all are typical of the policing languages of mastery, and cannot, do not, permit new knowledge or encourage the mutual exchange of ideas. --Steven Hale From: IN%"csmith@nalusda.gov" "Cynthia Smith" 28-APR-1995 10:41:18.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Robotic Sheep Shearer p> > > Several weeks ago I saw an interesting segment on the Discovery Channel > on how some large sheep operations in Australia were testing the use of a > Robotic shearer. The sheep entered the area to be sheared via a chute and > it looked like they were lifted to a shearing table very smoothly by a > conveyor belt that reminded me of something Temple Grandin would design. > > Once the sheep was in position it was electrically immobilized and the > robot went to work shearing. I would be interested in hearing from those > who know more about this process and how the electrical immobilization > compares to conventional shearing restraint techniques. Is electrical > immobilization more stressful. Do the sheep remember getting "zapped?" > > > Cindy Smith > USDA, National Agricultural Library > Animal Welfare Information Center > Beltsville, MD > From: IN%"harrism@sask.usask.ca" 28-APR-1995 11:00:34.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "etho-list" CC: IN%"harrism@sask.usask.ca" "u -- harrism" Subj: Jeff, I disagree I read Jeff Rushen's message about list moderation criteria with interest. As the perpetrator of a couple of personal attacks, I have to agree in retrospect that criticizing the person posting rather than his/her ideas is somewhat pointless. However, I can't agree to Jeff's list of possible reasons to refuse a message .... many or most list moderators will refuse messages which contain sexist, racist or homophobic comments, or ask them to be reworded so as not to be offensive. This seems to me perfectly reasonable and desirable. Thus, t and b messages would have to go into the rubbish bin. The concept of a publicly-accessable trash can for refused messages is an interesting one ... could be good entertainment for readers with too much spare time, perhaps? BTW, I volunteer to moderate this list! (now you're all scared, aren't you) ..... :) - Moira Harris From: IN%"CROWELL-DAVIS.S@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 28-APR-1995 12:14:18.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: childcare and career James Serpell reported A report published in the NY Times last October suggested that the husbands of spouses who worked, and who consequently took a greater role in childcare, were significantly less successful professionally than colleagues whose wives stayed at home with the kids. A further spanner in the sociobiological cost-benefit works! James Serpell Don't believe everything you read in the New York Times. A few years ago I was misquoted (on an applied behavior issue) so that the meaning of what I said was totally changed. Sharon Crowell-Davis From: IN%"kmcn@flyball.demon.co.uk" "KevinMcNicholas" 28-APR-1995 14:53:38.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hello Hello I subscribed to the Applied Ethology List a few weeks ago, and have been watching from the sidelines, I feel that I should introduce myself. I am interested in Pet Animal Behaviour, I am at present studying part time on the Pet Behavior Counselling course at of the Southampton University. I am looking forward to more stimulating discussions on this list. Kevin Mc Nicholas . , |\_/| .-------------------------------------------. | @ @ Woof! Woof! | Kevin Mc Nicholas | | --<> _ | 50 Tudor Road Barnet, Herts | | ___/\------__ // | England United Kingdom | | ` | Telephone (44) 0181 449 7539 | ____|_ ___| | | Email kmcn@flyball.demon.co.uk | /_/_____/_____/_______| `-------------------------------------------' From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" 28-APR-1995 15:14:29.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hello! As requested in the welcome message on subscribing, just a short note to introduce myself. I am a pet behaviour counsellor, Member of the APBC and the visiting Pet Behaviour Counsellor at Cambridge University Veterinary School. I realise from the last mailing that I received(some of which Dr Johnson would have been proud of, or stretched by) that I am joining at a time of debate about openess. I am sure that I can benefit from this forum and that my involvement in a related field will enable me to contribute something constructive sooner or later. David Appleby -------------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk -------------------------------------------- From: IN%"LPINHEIRO@APS.UoGuelph.CA" 28-APR-1995 17:48:42.53 To: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Successfully applied Ethology Dear all: Thanks for introducing a different and also interesting topic. It may "unite" the list again :). About your question, I am sure there are many people better prepared than me in this list to answer. But anyway I would like to express my opinion "without any moderation": > Dear Applied Ethologists: > > Last week in Indianapolis the "Animal Behavior and the Design > of Livestock and Poultry Systems International Conference" met and > was generally viewed as having been a successful event. There was > a question, however, that arose within an informally organized > discussion session that generated considerable dialogue but no real > resolution. The question has to do with: > > "Name a production practice or facility design feature > that arose directly from research results from applied > ethology and give the reference." This question, or this kind of question is more common among those that don't believe in applied ethology as a science, or at least as an "useful science". But it is a very good challenge as well. I agree with Per, that a science does not have to have a direct application. Besides, a paper to be accepted by Jeff, :) have to have so many stats, and be so much precise and objective, that we hardly can deal with a "system" in ONE paper. Seeing the question from another prism, we could ask: "Is there ANY husbandry technique or facility design feature that arose WITHOUT some behavioral _knowledge_?" And I think the answer is NO. Even though any that eventually came out without a behavioral knowledge, would be rapidly changed or fixed up BECAUSE of behavioral problems. Like the capivara drinker. A pigs' drinker didn't work for capivaras in Brazil. The capivaras have a very sensitive nose, and VERY applied behavioral research was needed to improve that. Another example would be domestication. Would it be possible without some early behavioral knowledge? As for "papers", they are very recent, and all the livestock production, when started, were not based exactly in "scientific knowledge" as we understand today. About production technique or facility design from applied ethology research, I would say the system to restraint and handle cattle that we teach and use in our University in Brazil, including the design, is based in ethology research, as those from Grandin, but also others, regarding the type of vision of the animal. The materials used are based on what kind of sound bothers the animal, e.g. we avoid metals (we have plenty of wood, without needing to destroy the Amazon forest). The floor is based in the shape of the hoof, and in the tendency of the animal to join legs when walking in a corridor with a convex surface. The design of the "bath" against ticks is also very much based in the behaviour of the animals. And there are many others examples, like from the early work from Bouissou regarding dominance in cattle when eating, we advise to distribute e.g. silage on pasture just below the fence, to "line up" the animals and decrease competition. A drinker on pasture should have a round shape. We observed a group of 600 steers in four 5 ha paddocks, either with a round drinker or a square shape drinker. Both had the same perimeter exposed to the animals. We found less number of agonistic interactions in the round one, and in this type of drinker the steers drunk 36 l/day in average, comparing with 24-26 l/day in the squared one. Further we designed a round drinker with a shape of a tire, empty in the middle. This was the most economical one, and saved about 50 thousands US$ to build about 100 drinkers in an "intensively on pasture" system for two 1000 ha farm (about 5000 heads each). Those are few examples I remember now. Those are management technique, or facilities design BASED on scientific research and knowledge in applied ethology. For the reference, any good textbook on Ethology of Farm Animals provide the information necessary to develop those systems or facilties. Also, of course, we have to consider other things as well: economy, nutrition, health, etc. There are many other examples coming from papers, I don't know if I should be "piling" those. However, I would like to mention just one very interesting: "Space Requirements of Barrows and Gilts Penned Together from 54 to 113 Kilograms" the author is: NRC-89 Committee on Confinement Management of Swine. J. Anim. Sci. 1993 71:1088-1091. Although the paper focuses basically in weight gain, feed conversion, the "principle behind" that is a beahvioural one. Perhaps very shortly, as we have now "nutritional requirements", we would have "behavioural requirements" (?). Among the members of the committee, is (I believe is him) the president of our Society, H. Gonyou. Can we be better represented? :) :). > > I have some ideas about how to answer this question for it is > not the first time that I have been confronted with the issue. And > there were several ideas presented at the meeting. I must admit, > however, that I don't feel that I have an answer that is completely > convincing to those who continue to doubt the value of applying the > science of ethology to practices associated with the care and > housing of animals. Also, I think that the "Code of Practice" for farm animals are very much based in ethology research, as well as some legislation in Europe (as the veal calves ban in UK). > > I would be interested in hearing how others answer this > question. > > > W. Ray Stricklin > Department of Animal Sciences > University of Maryland > > ws31@umail.umd.edu > Sorry for any mystake with the english. Sorry for the long, not moderated, msg. :) Best regards, L. Carlos Pinheiro Machado Luiz Carlos Pinheiro Machado Filho Univ. Federal de Santa Catarina University of Guelph CCA - Dep. de Zootecnia Dep. of Animal & Poultry Sci. Florianopolis, S.C. - BRASIL Guelph, ONT - CANADA Bolsista CNPq - Brasil Sponsored by CNPq - Brazil From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 30-APR-1995 09:50:11.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Three Sisters > >This is why we need a list moderator. I think "Joy, Moira, and >Missy" are right on and I am very tired of this whole "discussion". >Alice Crook --- >- - - - Forwarded Message Follows - - - - - - - > > >Date sent: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 21:25:02 -0600 (MDT) >From: Stephen Easley >Subject: Three Sisters >Forwarded to: ACROOK@acad1.cs.upei.ca >To: Applied Ethology List > > >Three Sisters of Saskatoon > >Three sisters, Joy, Moira, and Missy >As language police got quite pissy >Perhaps they're delirious >To pen screed so serious >On matters not weighty, just prissy. > > >Have a humor-filled day. :-) > >Stephen Easley >New Mexico State University >seasley@nmsu.edu > > > On the contrary, please do not censor ("moderate") this forum. I find this thread to be a rather fascinating example of ethology in action. -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 30-APR-1995 10:15:28.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Sexual Harassment and Censorship > > > This message is addressed primarily to the male members of the >network. I have two objectives in sending this messages: 1) to >state strongly that recent messages that contain sexual inferences >are totally inappropriate and 2) to encourage other male members to >take an active role in showing their displeasure with those who >abuse the network. > > References to women in terms of their sexual anatomy is an >age-old form of censorship by males, even when cloaked in humor. >This point was once strongly made to me by a female graduate >student. She complained that in a seminar she and all other women >present became socially (and professionally) isolated from the male- >dominated main group when a slide of a semi-nude woman had been >shown followed by so-called humorous comments from the males about >the woman's breasts. This student considered it sexual harassment. >My first reaction was that she was over-reacting. After some >continued discussion with her, however, I realized that she was >correct. The males in the group had in fact isolated and silenced >the females. Similar references on the network are ultimately not >meant to be funny as claimed by their senders. Instead, such >references serve to continue to isolate females from the group. By >silencing females, male dominance can be maintained. > > Moria Harris was correct in stating that certain exchanges on >this network have been completely inappropriate. As for a solution >to the problem that Moria identified, I believe that we males must >speak out in opposition to the inappropriate actions of the >offending males. Accordingly, I want it known that I strongly >object to the recent male display of inappropriate references to >female anatomy and other attempts to place women into a secondary >role or different category on this network. > > Ethology is a discipline in which females have contributed as >much, if not more, than males. As a teacher, I make this known to >both my male and female students. Also, as a father, I intend to do >as much as possible to bring about a society in which my daughter's >role and position will _not_ be determined on the basis of her sex >and _certainly not_ on the basis of her sexual anatomy. Thus, I >acknowledge that my interests in this topic extend considerably beyond >this network. > > There is one male on the network in particular against whom I >believe we should take strong action. This person identifies >himself as a British veterinarian. While he is not the only >offender, he is the most blatant and has not been responsive to >previous calls for moderation in his actions. I no longer believe >his pleas of being misunderstood, claims of inadvertent responses to >the network instead of privately, and excuses based on poor typing >skills. As a solution to the problem, when I see his name on my >computer screen, I intend to delete his messages without reading >them. To make sure there are no doubts as to whom I am referring, >I am sending him a personal message informing him that I consider >his contribution to the network unprofessional and sexist and that >in the future I will neither read nor respond to his messages. > > I do not wish to see the entire group become monitored because >of the actions of a few individuals. Therefore, I would suggest >that others join me in acting and speaking out against such >behavior. I suggest that messages be addressed personally to any >offender and that we not clog the network with this topic, important >as it is. I ask others to join me in working to keep the network a >professionally responsible vehicle for those who truly are >interested in advancing the discipline of applied ethology. > >Sincerely, > >W. Ray Stricklin >Associate Professor > >Department of Animal Sciences >University of Maryland >College Park, MD 20742 USA Having previously established my credentials for this discussion by being among those who objected to the unnamed British vet who brought female anatomy into the discussion, and doing my very best to remain professionally objective, allow me to offer an observation about the above post: It seems to me that the whole gist of the statement is to maintain the male domination syndrome. That is, the basic suggestion seems to be that we males should be chivalrous and allow the ladies to join the group just to prove what really fine fellows we are. Further, we should not allow them the honor of being individually socially and/or professionally certifiable because they (as a group) are not strong enough to stand such scrutiny. In essence, we are in control, but we are benign leaders and we invite them in, not on their own merits, but on the basis of gender only. Is that the message you wish us to receive? -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM)