From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 31-JUL-2004 12:52:04.22 To: IN%"jraustin@telusplanet.net", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"peter@optimal.org" Subj: RE: Acting on second triggering event. My second question has apparently caused confusion for several people so I will do my best to clarify it. I want to know if a dog or similarly intelligent creature can learn to ignore or follow a command based on its location in a sequence. That is can a dog who has been trained to roll-over, sit and shake, learn that when two commands are given in rapid succession he should only do the second command or only do the first. I am interested in this issue from the standpoint of how short-term memory works in animals at this cognitive level. Can they learn to ignore certain cues and pick up on others when in a different context the ignored cues would be followed and visa versa? Right now we are trying to determine the criteria by which a stimuli is worth storing in short-term (working) memory as opposed to simple sense memory which appears to store everything albeit quite briefly. My current working hypothesis is that working memory (in its simplest form) is different from sense memory in that it grabs stimuli that have been associated with reward and punishment in the past and it ignores unassociated neutral stimuli, while sense memory tends to store information based on its intensity and possibly other non-learned criteria. From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 31-JUL-2004 21:03:37.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: All quiet on the ethology front? I am concerned, the last e-mail I had from etholgy was one telling my my e-mail was generating spam. We've checked the computer, and found nothing of import but removed some dodgy files (I believe). So is this lest on meltdown? Have I been ejuected? Or are we just ebing quiet? Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour, Australia From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 1-AUG-2004 05:02:33.17 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: All quiet on the ethology front? ----- Original Message ----- > > So is this lest on meltdown? Have I been ejected? Or are we just ebing quiet? > > Hi Jenny, > I am still getting posts from it. The one you referred to was actually a virus I believe so I hope you didn't run the attachment. > > Regards John L. Thankyou John, No I had more sense than to open it -- wiped it as soon as possible but ran my virus checker and found we had something called 'BackDoor Agent 2'. The friend who helped us with it told us it was something fromn somebody trying to hack into our computer, and wouldn't have been passed on to anyone else. I hope all others on the list avoided 'catching' the virus. All the best, Jenny H From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" "John R. Lane" 1-AUG-2004 12:54:05.51 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: Canine Phscological Endocrinology Hello all, I need some recent data study references on this subject as related to canines please. I know that Dr K Overall from studies tells us that blood chemicals don't restore to baseline levels for up to 24 hours after a single arousal event. Recently at a seminar I heard it stated by the presenter that the mix of chemical cocktails we call adrenaline don't actually completely stop kicking in till 15 minutes after the trigger event. Further that it takes from two to six days for levels to return to baseline. I have some questions about the accuracy of this last timeline purely because it conflicts with my very limited knowledge in this area. Can anyone refer me to some recent reading and studies on this subject. On a related subject what do members think about the hypothesis that canines like humans can actually become "adrenaline junkies" and *purposefully* seek out their "fix"? Does any one know of any actual studies that show trends such as this? Regards John Lane K9 College New Zealand From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 1-AUG-2004 21:53:47.80 To: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" "John R. Lane" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" Subj: RE: Canine Phscological Endocrinology > =A0I know that Dr K Overall from studies tells us that blood chemicals=20= > don't restore to baseline=A0levels for up to 24 hours after a single=20= > arousal event. That would depend on which hormone/neurotransmitter we are talking=20 about... > =A0 > =A0Recently at a seminar I heard it stated by the presenter that the = mix=20 > of chemical cocktails we call adrenaline don't actually completely=20 > stop kicking in till 15 minutes after the trigger event. Further that=20= > it takes from two to six days for levels to return to baseline. I do behavioural endocrinology in wolves. First, "adrenaline" is not a=20= "cocktail" of chemicals, it is its own chemical, also called=20 epinephrine. Adrenaline is released very quickly (in seconds, even=20 milliseconds in the central nervous system, as a neurotransmitter)=20 after a trigger event. I think the stress hormones that was alluded to=20= must have been cortisol (a glucocorticoid, like corticosterone, the=20 equivalent hormone produced in rodents and birds), and even 15 minutes=20= is a long timeline in canids (or humans). 20 minutes is the timeline=20 found for cortisol metabolites to be found in urine. So the release is=20= actually within minutes of the stressor. Adrenaline and noradrenaline (the companion "quick-release" stress=20 hormone) actually get back very quickly to baseline levels unless there=20= is a pathology or psychopathology (e.g., anxiety disorders). > =A0On a related subject what do members think about the hypothesis = that=20 > canines like humans can actually become "adrenaline junkies" and=20 > *purposefully* seek out their "fix"? > =A0 > Does any one know of any actual studies that show trends such as this? This is actually controversial. Another catecholamine, dopamine, may be=20= responsible for that apparent "dependence" on "exciting" events. Check=20= the PsychInfo database for the literature and "sensation-seeking=20 behaviour" and "sensation-seeking personality" in humans. Often when=20 people talk about an adrenaline rush, they are actually talking about a=20= "noradrenaline" rush, as adrenaline tends to be released following=20 fearful events, and noradrenaline during "exciting, yet, scary" events=20= (e.g., jumping from a plane with a parachute; i.e., seeked events). I suggest the following books for general references in behavioural=20 endocrinology (the first one is the one I use for my course): Nelson, R. J. (2000). An Introduction to Behavioral Endocrinology, 2nd=20= Edition. Sunderland, Mass.: Sinauer. Becker, J.B., Breedlove, S.M., Crews, D. & McCarthy, M.M. (2002).=20 Behavioral Endocrinology, Second Edition. Cambridge: Massachusetts: MIT=20= Press. Brown, R.E. (1994). An Introduction to Neuroendocrinology. Cambridge:=20 Massachusetts: MIT Press. S. Gadbois --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Dalhousie University Behavioural endocrinology & animal behaviour. Behaviour of wolves, coyotes and red foxes. http://www.gadbois.org/ --- From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 2-AUG-2004 00:35:19.38 To: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Endocrinology Dear Simon, This is intriguing: >This is actually controversial. Another catecholamine, dopamine, may be responsible for that apparent "dependence" on "exciting" events. Check the PsychInfo >database for the literature and "sensation-seeking behaviour" and "sensation-seeking personality" in humans. Often when people talk about an adrenaline rush, >they are actually talking about a "noradrenaline" rush, as adrenaline tends to be released following fearful events, and noradrenaline during "exciting, yet, scary" >events (e.g., jumping from a plane with a parachute; i.e., seeked events). Relying solely on physiological measures of welfare has been criticized because of the difficulty in separating events that are arousing but that the individual finds positive from those that are equally arousing and aversive. Usually reference here is made to the glucocorticoids. What you write suggests that we'd have the key if we look at adrenaline/noradrenaline, doesn't it? Best wishes Anna Olsson From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 2-AUG-2004 07:46:29.52 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Endocrinology HI Anna, Referenc to glucocorticoids was made in the other paragraph I wrote, in=20= fact, those are the ones I studied. I actually think that catecholamines are absolutely not informative in=20= stress studies as there are no non-invasive ways to collect them fast=20 enough. THe issue of arousal is in fact central to the issue with=20 catecholamines, even with very well controlled experiments unless=20 someone pretends being able to read the mind of the animals studied.=20 Even glucocorticoids present much of that problem and more, considering=20= theories suggesting they are marker of recovery, not stress per se. I=20 am not sure how you got the idea I thought catecholamines were the=20 solution... S. Gadbois On 2-Aug-04, at 3:34 AM, Anna Olsson wrote: > Dear Simon, > =A0 > This is intriguing: > >This is actually controversial. Another catecholamine, dopamine, may=20= > be responsible for that apparent "dependence" on "exciting" events.=20 > Check the PsychInfo >database for the literature and=20 > "sensation-seeking behaviour" and "sensation-seeking personality" in=20= > humans. Often when people talk about an adrenaline rush, >they are=20 > actually talking about a "noradrenaline" rush, as adrenaline tends to=20= > be released following fearful events, and noradrenaline during=20 > "exciting, yet, scary" >events (e.g., jumping from a plane with a=20 > parachute; i.e., seeked events). > > Relying solely on physiological measures of welfare has been=20 > criticized because of the difficulty in separating events that are=20 > arousing but that the individual finds positive from those that are=20 > equally arousing and aversive. Usually reference here is made to the=20= > glucocorticoids. What you write suggests that we'd have the key if we=20= > look at adrenaline/noradrenaline, doesn't it? > =A0 > Best wishes > Anna Olsson > =A0 From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" "John R. Lane" 2-AUG-2004 17:12:35.60 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: Re endocrinology references Thank you Simon, for your reply, overview and the references you gave. I will follow them up. Although some of what you said in your overview is new to me, it in general terms agrees with the very limited trainer's view I had in the area. Hence my puzzlement and need to do more research before deciding whether I could definitely agree or disagree with what the presenter put forward. I will write more fully in a later post on this subject and the full gist of what was presented just to compare notes and get a response from you. I have looked up my lecture notes since my first e-mail just to make sure I had their ideas correct. I do in general but there are some specifics I didn't include. The presenter develops from the single trigger event into chronic stress indicators and the effects of this condition on the animal and maybe there is some confusion in the xtrapolation on one or other of our parts. The reason for the second question re "adrenaline addiction" is because I know that this is used as a general model by some trainers when treating canine agression. I have absolutely no doubt that their techniques work in some situations. I have successfully used them. But I do wonder about the accuracy of the reasons from an endrocinological perspective of how they are percieved to work. When I teach some one else to apply a technique I like to be as accurate as possible in my explanation of not only how to apply the technique but, if they are capable of understanding them and it would be useful to them, the reasons why and how it works also. Hence my query to members in this area. Regards John L. New Zealand From: IN%"marine.bedoucha@wanadoo.fr" "Marine C. Bedoucha" 3-AUG-2004 08:50:22.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: list guidelines Dear all, Could anyone forward me the guidelines to enter this discussion list? I have lost them and the links on the ISAE website aren't working. Thanks in advance, Marine Cassoret www.marinefishpage.fr.st/ From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 4-AUG-2004 19:24:18.68 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"tony@koehlerdogtraining.com" "Tony Ancheta" Subj: RE: Acting on second triggering event. Don't know if Tony Ancheta is still on this list so I'm copying him with yours -- but immediately comes to mind scent discrimination work by dogs who are given a command to 'find it' and the 'it' is a very specific scent (article) and they do indeed 'find it.' I can't imagine another practical application that is at the same time useful in the real world and a fair test? Perhaps Mr. Campbell has an example? -margory cohen San Francisco ----- Original Message ----- From: Michalchik@aol.com To: jraustin@telusplanet.net ; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Cc: peter@optimal.org Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Acting on second triggering event. My second question has apparently caused confusion for several people so I will do my best to clarify it. I want to know if a dog or similarly intelligent creature can learn to ignore or follow a command based on its location in a sequence. That is can a dog who has been trained to roll-over, sit and shake, learn that when two commands are given in rapid succession he should only do the second command or only do the first. I am interested in this issue from the standpoint of how short-term memory works in animals at this cognitive level. Can they learn to ignore certain cues and pick up on others when in a different context the ignored cues would be followed and visa versa? Right now we are trying to determine the criteria by which a stimuli is worth storing in short-term (working) memory as opposed to simple sense memory which appears to store everything albeit quite briefly. My current working hypothesis is that working memory (in its simplest form) is different from sense memory in that it grabs stimuli that have been associated with reward and punishment in the past and it ignores unassociated neutral stimuli, while sense memory tends to store information based on its intensity and possibly other non-learned criteria. From: IN%"Yvonne.vanhierden@wur.nl" "Hierden, Yvonne van" 6-AUG-2004 03:47:47.13 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: research outdoor poultry Hi, I am trying to make an inventory of all research-groups (currently) studying the effect of an outdoor area for poultry (laying hens, broilers, turkeys) on welfare, behaviour, health, environmental effects, etc.. The purpose is to try to start a framework of researchers (in Europe), to combine research activities, and to share knowledge. There don't seem to be very much groups working on these subjects? Does anyone know? kind regards, Yvonne Dr. ir. Yvonne van Hierden Animal Sciences Group, Wageningen UR Animal Resources Development PO Box 65 8200 AB Lelystad, The Netherlands phone +31 320 238 171 fax +31 320 238 094 Visiting adress: Edelhertweg 15, Lelystad e-mail yvonne.vanhierden@wur.nl internet www.asg.wur.nl From: IN%"jurskivan@hi.htnet.hr" "Marko Jirasek" 13-AUG-2004 06:48:07.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" CC: Subj: false pregnancy of a dog Hello All Just a quick question for possibly not so quick answer: When dealing with a false pregnancy of a very well socialized and trained bitch (Bullmastiff), is it necessary to ignore the behaviour or would it, under some circumstances, be more or less advisable/possible to try to ease her not very pronounced fears (but of course present) of alfa female with closer contact by that alfa female? And, how likely is (if I can put it this way) the dog to show any aggression because of the pain associated with her condition, and toward whom? There are two adults, a cat and a girl in the household. Thanks a bunch! Marko Jirasek www.turkishvan.cjb.net www.macja-posla.cjb.net From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" 13-AUG-2004 08:22:25.71 To: IN%"jurskivan@hi.htnet.hr" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: false pregnancy of a dog > When dealing with a false pregnancy of a very well socialized and > trained bitch (Bullmastiff), is it necessary to ignore the behaviour or > would it, under some circumstances, be more or less advisable/possible > to try to ease her not very pronounced fears (but of course present) of > alfa female with closer contact by that alfa female? Your animal may be experiencing hormonal changes that can contribute to her perceiving things differently and/or being more reactive. Simply increasing exposure to the alpha female may subject the other female to stress, may provoke aggression, etc. However, there are some efficient ways to teach your animals (they could all benefit from learning )to manage their emotions and cope with stress. Here is a link to some specific directions: http://www.synalia.com/animal_training_animal_emotion.htm > And, how likely is (if I can put it this way) the dog to show any > aggression because of the pain associated with her condition, and toward > whom? There are two adults, a cat and a girl in the household. In my experience, any aggression is more likely to be associated with hormones than pain, per se (during a pregnancy or false pregnancy). However, if there is pain related aggression, it is most likely to be directed toward the object perceived as causing the pain. More likely, the female may try to assert herself to establish a higher social position, or just be less tolerant in general. If I were seeing any tendancies toward aggressive or reactive behavior, I would definitely take measures to protect the well-being of the girl and cat. In the exercise described at the link above, you could do cycles using the alpha female, the girl and the cat as the distractions, one at a time. This allows the female being trained to understand how to relax when asked, even when challenged by the presence of "provocative" things, and it allows her to develop her ability to do this. It makes a big difference in a short amount of time. Best wishes, Kayce Kayce Cover MS, CABC (IAABC) Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 13-AUG-2004 08:51:18.83 To: IN%"jurskivan@hi.htnet.hr" "Marko Jirasek", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: false pregnancy of a dog One of my coytes went through this this year. Are you interested in some of my notes. There aren't many notes, but a few. Also some observations from Dr. Klinghammer. CeAnn --- Marko Jirasek wrote: > Hello All > > Just a quick question for possibly not so quick > answer: > When dealing with a false pregnancy of a very well > socialized and trained > bitch (Bullmastiff), is it necessary to ignore the > behaviour or would it, > under some circumstances, be more or less > advisable/possible to try to ease > her not very pronounced fears (but of course > present) of alfa female with > closer contact by that alfa female? > And, how likely is (if I can put it this way) the > dog to show any aggression > because of the pain associated with her condition, > and toward whom? There > are two adults, a cat and a girl in the household. > Thanks a bunch! > > Marko Jirasek > > > www.turkishvan.cjb.net > www.macja-posla.cjb.net > > > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From: IN%"jurskivan@hi.htnet.hr" "Marko Jirasek" 13-AUG-2004 15:15:27.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" CC: Subj: false pregnancy in a pack Hi All If I can bother you with another question, please let me know your knowledge about this: Is it true that false pregnancy has been observed in a wild pack when other females get false pregnancy to be able to assist alpha female in feeding puppies? I need either confirmation or rejection of this theory (and a possible further reading, please). Once again, I appreciate your replies. Marko Jirasek www.turkishvan.cjb.net www.macja-posla.cjb.net