From:	IN%"olokbo@yahoo.com"  "lieve Bijnens" 17-AUG-2001 02:19:40.69
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	wood shavings as bedding for horses

Hi everyone!
We are looking for information regarding the
prevalence of the use of wood shavings (as opposed to
straw) as a bedding material for horses in different
countries (Europe mainly, but others are welcome!).
Has anyone any suggestions?
Thank you very much in advance!
Lieve Meers and Simona Normando

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From:	IN%"DMills@dmu.ac.uk"  "Daniel Mills" 17-AUG-2001 02:26:21.70
To:	IN%"olokbo@yahoo.com"  "'lieve Bijnens'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: wood shavings as bedding for horses

See 
Harris 1999,  Equine Vet J. Supplement 29 46-54. REview of equine stable
management and feeding practices  in the UK concentrating on the last decade
of the 20th century 
or
Mills et al 2000, Animal Science 70: 95-106. Thoroughbred bedding
preferences, associated behaviour differencfes and their implictaions for
equine welfare.

Daniel Mills BVSc MRCVS
Principal Lecturer in Behavioural Studies & Animal Welfare
Animal Behaviour, Welfare and Cognition Group
De Montfort University Lincoln
Caythorpe Campus
Caythorpe
Lincs
NG32 3EP
UK
Tel 44(0)1400 275629
e-mail dmills@dmu.ac.uk
web-page http://www.dmu.ac.uk/ln/Agriculture/staffcvs/DanielS.Mills.htm


-----Original Message-----
From: lieve Bijnens [mailto:olokbo@yahoo.com]
Sent: 17 August 2001 09:19
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: wood shavings as bedding for horses


Hi everyone!
We are looking for information regarding the
prevalence of the use of wood shavings (as opposed to
straw) as a bedding material for horses in different
countries (Europe mainly, but others are welcome!).
Has anyone any suggestions?
Thank you very much in advance!
Lieve Meers and Simona Normando

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

From:	IN%"kelly_moyes@hotmail.com"  "Kelly Moyes" 21-AUG-2001 04:59:58.70
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Voluntary work

I have just graduated from the University of Reading with a 1st (hons) in 
Zoology.

I am now taking a year out and am trying to get as much field experience as 
possible.  I am interested in any large mammals and am willing to travel 
anywhere for as long as I am needed.  I am very dedicated when involved in 
field projects and feel I would be a valuable member of a research group.  I 
am willing to work alone or in a team and in a wide range of conditions.

I have had some experience in field work - such as with my dissertation and 
the varied field courses I took part in.  I have also helped with a study of 
bottle nosed dolphin behaviour in Scotland which I found to be very 
rewarding.

If anyone has any suggestions as to where I could apply to for field 
experience, I would be very grateful.

Thank you

Kelly Moyes

kelly_moyes@hotmail.com

31 Eastwood Road
Sittingbourne
Kent
ENGLAND
RG6 1DL

+44 (0)7930 627 277

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


From:	IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net"  "Bill Campbell" 21-AUG-2001 12:25:26.48
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	ISAE 2001 Meeting papers/abstracts

Greeting from Oregon,

Does anyone have a source for obtaining copies of some of the 
landmark presentations at the UC Davis ISAE conference?

Thanks, with high hopes,

Bill Campbell
P.O. Box 1658
Grants Pass, OR 97528
http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior
tel 541-476-5775
fax 541-476-5523

From:	IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 21-AUG-2001 18:56:24.26
To:	IN%"ISAEnet-l@usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Foal imprinting: Why should it work?

Dear All,

Bill Campbell just sent a message to the group asking about copies of
the ISAE abstracts presented at the ISAE meetings in Davis and I could
not help but think of all the conversations I wanted to have and all the
questions that I wish I would have asked at the meeting.

For example, I noticed two papers this year that dealt with the question
of whether foals would benefit or change their behaviour towards people
at a later date if exposed, handled or "imprinted" onto people shortly
after birth (Oral paper by Sondergaard and Jago; Poster paper by
Williams, Friend, Toscano, Sisto and Nevill).  The horse industry is
quite high on the idea and I see and read all kinds of information by
horse people proclaiming the advantage of handling foals shortly after
birth.  In our area, the first thing horse people ask other horse owners
(when a proud owner boasts about a prized mare having foaled) is, "Did
you imprint the new foal and handle the foal shortly after birth?"  The
horse people here ask each other this question as if you would be a fool
NOT to IMPRINT the foal!  However, I am now aware of at least 3
scientific attempts to look at this question (I heard another student
project presented at a Cornell, NY meeting several years ago) and so far
none of them have shown conclusive evidence that there is any real
advantage gained from handling newborn foals.

My comment/question/point is this: Surely imprinting in the classical
Lorenzian style works, but handling a foal for a few hours shortly after
birth seems to me to be very far removed from the classical imprinting
work.  Chicks, ducklings and goslings that imprint onto people do so in
the absence of their own mother.  Is there any evidence or work that
shows chicks, ducklings or goslings will imprint onto their mother AND a
human?  As a young boy we separated many young ducklings from their
mothers to prevent them from being eaten on our lake by snapping turtles
and predators and all of the ducklings would imprint onto us after being
removed from their mother shortly after hatching.  They did this with
very short exposures to us during feeding and watering, but I never saw
ducklings or chicks imprint onto their mother AND us!  Isn't the absence
of the mother a key ingredient in making the whole imprinting phenomenon
work between newly hatched poultry and people?  What evolutionary
advantage would there be for a neonate to imprint onto its mother and
any other creature that happened by during the first few days after
birth?  I suspect that young animals gain some information as they grow,
about the creatures that also occupy their world, but that is not the
same as imprinting.  Perhaps foals would form very strong attachments to
humans in the absence of the mare, but personally I would not expect a
couple hours of handling after birth or for the first couple of days to
have any impact on the foal's response to humans 6 months later, if the
foal was reared by its own mother during the first 6 months of its
life.  I am all in favor of taming and offering continuous positive
human exposure to young animals (and the sooner one starts the process -
probably the better the end results), but we are experiencing a whole
culture of dreamers within the horse industry who believe that a few
hours of intensive handling of foals shortly after birth has major
payoffs down the road.  Not only has the science been unable to show any
major advantage by handling foals for a few brief hours shortly after
birth, but the whole idea of foal imprinting, to me, seems a bit off the
mark.  Doesn't it?

I am not trying to be critical of scientists investigating this area.
On the contrary, I think science is the best way to show the horse
industry (or skeptics like me) that it does or does not work.  But I am
being critical of horse people who automatically assume it should work
(with just a few hours of exposure after birth) and proclaim that it
does work simply because we know that newborn poultry imprint onto
people shortly after birth during a critical period of time.  Meanwhile
they ignore the fact that young poultry imprint onto people in the
absence of a real mother!

Anyway, I found the entire ISAE conference exceptionally stimulating and
I think it would be great if we had a few more conversations on the net
about some of the papers.  I don't know why we have to wait 12 months in
between meetings to hear each others' thoughts!  I am not interested in
critically roasting other scientists, but to me it would be worthwhile
to further discuss some of the topics raised at the conference.

Any other comments about foal imprinting and why I might be off the
mark, or any other comments about topics presented at the meeting?

Sincerely,

Joe

--
Joseph M. Stookey
Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences
Western College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Saskatchewan
52 Campus Dr.
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
S7N 5B4  Canada



From:	IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au"  "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 21-AUG-2001 19:19:40.13
To:	IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca"  "'joseph.stookey@usask.ca'", IN%"ISAEnet-l@usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Foal imprinting: Why should it work?

Hi Joe
Really would have like to have been at ISAE, but .... maybe next year!?

Just a quick response to your thoughts.  I think this is about the tendency
to use "fashionable" terms/words without really understanding them.  What
these horse owners are describing is not imprinting (filial attachments and
preferences as a result of exposure to and some predisposition for
particular classes of stimuli) in the correct, technical sense of the word.
I believe they are talking about a 'socialisation' process - essentially
getting the foal accustomed to the presence of and handling by humans in the
presence of the dam - a situation that's less likely to induce fear than if
the dam was absent.

I believe that dogs are given the same treatment - young puppies are handled
etc in the presence of the bitch (but, isn't there also talk of
'critical/sensitive periods' for this socialisation to take place in dogs?).
I'm told that if pups don't get this then they are very fearful of humans -
but presumably this can be overcome with appropriate handling/training in
time.  I know there are people out there who know MUCH more about this than
I do!

I look forward to some stimulating discussion.

Carol

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Joseph Stookey [SMTP:joseph.stookey@usask.ca]
> Sent:	Wednesday, 22 August 2001 11:56
> To:	ISAEnet-l@usask.ca; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Subject:	Foal imprinting: Why should it work?
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> Bill Campbell just sent a message to the group asking about copies of
> the ISAE abstracts presented at the ISAE meetings in Davis and I could
> not help but think of all the conversations I wanted to have and all the
> questions that I wish I would have asked at the meeting.
> 
> For example, I noticed two papers this year that dealt with the question
> of whether foals would benefit or change their behaviour towards people
> at a later date if exposed, handled or "imprinted" onto people shortly
> after birth (Oral paper by Sondergaard and Jago; Poster paper by
> Williams, Friend, Toscano, Sisto and Nevill).  The horse industry is
> quite high on the idea and I see and read all kinds of information by
> horse people proclaiming the advantage of handling foals shortly after
> birth.  In our area, the first thing horse people ask other horse owners
> (when a proud owner boasts about a prized mare having foaled) is, "Did
> you imprint the new foal and handle the foal shortly after birth?"  The
> horse people here ask each other this question as if you would be a fool
> NOT to IMPRINT the foal!  However, I am now aware of at least 3
> scientific attempts to look at this question (I heard another student
> project presented at a Cornell, NY meeting several years ago) and so far
> none of them have shown conclusive evidence that there is any real
> advantage gained from handling newborn foals.
> 
> My comment/question/point is this: Surely imprinting in the classical
> Lorenzian style works, but handling a foal for a few hours shortly after
> birth seems to me to be very far removed from the classical imprinting
> work.  Chicks, ducklings and goslings that imprint onto people do so in
> the absence of their own mother.  Is there any evidence or work that
> shows chicks, ducklings or goslings will imprint onto their mother AND a
> human?  As a young boy we separated many young ducklings from their
> mothers to prevent them from being eaten on our lake by snapping turtles
> and predators and all of the ducklings would imprint onto us after being
> removed from their mother shortly after hatching.  They did this with
> very short exposures to us during feeding and watering, but I never saw
> ducklings or chicks imprint onto their mother AND us!  Isn't the absence
> of the mother a key ingredient in making the whole imprinting phenomenon
> work between newly hatched poultry and people?  What evolutionary
> advantage would there be for a neonate to imprint onto its mother and
> any other creature that happened by during the first few days after
> birth?  I suspect that young animals gain some information as they grow,
> about the creatures that also occupy their world, but that is not the
> same as imprinting.  Perhaps foals would form very strong attachments to
> humans in the absence of the mare, but personally I would not expect a
> couple hours of handling after birth or for the first couple of days to
> have any impact on the foal's response to humans 6 months later, if the
> foal was reared by its own mother during the first 6 months of its
> life.  I am all in favor of taming and offering continuous positive
> human exposure to young animals (and the sooner one starts the process -
> probably the better the end results), but we are experiencing a whole
> culture of dreamers within the horse industry who believe that a few
> hours of intensive handling of foals shortly after birth has major
> payoffs down the road.  Not only has the science been unable to show any
> major advantage by handling foals for a few brief hours shortly after
> birth, but the whole idea of foal imprinting, to me, seems a bit off the
> mark.  Doesn't it?
> 
> I am not trying to be critical of scientists investigating this area.
> On the contrary, I think science is the best way to show the horse
> industry (or skeptics like me) that it does or does not work.  But I am
> being critical of horse people who automatically assume it should work
> (with just a few hours of exposure after birth) and proclaim that it
> does work simply because we know that newborn poultry imprint onto
> people shortly after birth during a critical period of time.  Meanwhile
> they ignore the fact that young poultry imprint onto people in the
> absence of a real mother!
> 
> Anyway, I found the entire ISAE conference exceptionally stimulating and
> I think it would be great if we had a few more conversations on the net
> about some of the papers.  I don't know why we have to wait 12 months in
> between meetings to hear each others' thoughts!  I am not interested in
> critically roasting other scientists, but to me it would be worthwhile
> to further discuss some of the topics raised at the conference.
> 
> Any other comments about foal imprinting and why I might be off the
> mark, or any other comments about topics presented at the meeting?
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Joe
> 
> --
> Joseph M. Stookey
> Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences
> Western College of Veterinary Medicine
> University of Saskatchewan
> 52 Campus Dr.
> Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
> S7N 5B4  Canada
> 
> 
********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
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From:	IN%"whfeep@ihug.co.nz"  "Andy Beck" 21-AUG-2001 23:40:28.43
To:	IN%"ISAEnet-l@usask.ca"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au"  "Petherick, Carol (TBC)", IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Foal imprinting: Why should it work?

Kia ora from Aotearoa everyone,

I have been intending to get around to introducing myself and the White
Horse Farm Equine Ethology Project for a short while now, and this topic
seems a good place to start!

Yes, this whole question of foal imprinting is a good one, is it not?  And I
think we might reasonably conclude that it is symptomatic of the whole 'new
age' aproach to the horse.

If I am correct, and I believe I am, the notion was first introduced by Dr R
Miller, and I think it is possible that some part of the reason for such
rapid acceptance of this new idea stems from the fact that Dr Miller is a
vet and therefore confers a degree of scientific credibility on the idea. I
did in fact attend the lecture that Dr Miller gave on the subject when he
was here in NZ a few years ago. I must admit to having taken away the
feeling that it had been a bit long on the"selfpublicist" element, and short
on substance - but, nothing loath, I began to explore his technique,
(instructional video in hand - figuratively speaking) - during the next
foaling season.

Foaling takes place here out in the open and within the harem group to which
the mare is affiliated. Unlike many other accounts of foaling in herds,
mares here do not go off alone but foal within the group and take full
advantage of the herd support system. Foaling mares are watched over by
sentinels - the number appearing to differ with the status of the mare.
These would be younger mares without suckling foals at foot, maiden fillies,
either their own progeny from previous years or progeny of close companions,
and more rarely, but still on occasion, colts. These 'sentinels' do not
interfere and are not allowed contact with the new foal - not even older
siblings, but seem most intent on 'running interference' to prevent any
unwarranted interuptions or threats. People who are not well known to the
group are kept outside the protective circle. It is not unusual for the
resident harem stallion to take an interest either, and to object quite
firmly if the mare becomes even slightly agitated.

It is vital that the foal imprints on the mare quickly so that it learns to
follow only her - and no other! No other mare will feed the foal, and so a
mistake here could mean death by starvation/exhaustion.
Should a foal make the mistake of straying close to another mare it will be
rejected quite forcefully so that it is in no doubt that this will not be
tolerated.  The degree of aggression shown is in fact quite uncommon, and
therefore remarkable given that the foal is relatively so small, and I
believe shows the depth of 'importance' attached.

I am on sufficiently good terms with, and accepted by, most mares, so that I
am generally allowed through the cordon to inspect the foal. Brief and very
gentle handling will also be allowed by some mares, but body language
strongly suggests that this is bad protocol on my part, and taken as an
imposition to perhaps be tolerated but certainly not welcomed. So whatever
the foal may or may not think, the dam seems clearly unimpressed. If I were
actually successful (despite the fact that essential maternal signal stimuli
are missing from the top of my legs!) and the foal took to following me,
equally with its mother, the outcome would be awful. I cannot see any
scientific, or even anecdotal, evidence to suggest that it is within the
species spectrum of behavioural strategy to share imprinting - but every
logical reason to suggest that it would be maladaptive.

It has been suggested by some, and I would concur, that Dr Miller's methods,
far from being imprinting, actually more closely resemble the creation of
'learned helplessness'.  If this is the case then we should be very careful
as there is likely to be a distinct downside. Most, if not all, of the
research on this phenomenon has been carried out on people, but if we were
to assume, even for the sake of arguement, that the effects are likely to be
similar then there is a probability of creating learning problems later on,
and perhaps horses that tend toward inaction in the face of danger/threat.

Finally I settled on a method, that appeares to work consistently, whereby I
would wait for the mare to allow the foal 'out' into herd society in
general. This is easily judged by her acceptance of other herd members
coming into actual contact with the foal. At this point I too can begin to
socialise, and instead of an atmosphere of tension, my doing so can be
reinforced and supported by 'mum's' relaxed body language. It does also
occasionally happen that an older sibling will approach me with the foal in
tow, giving an appearance of facilitating social contact.

There are many reasons why the idea of handling new-born foals has become
fashionable, but perhaps most of these have to do with elements of human
psychology such as control and power and, of course, they are charming,
velvety little creatures that can easily evoke maternal instincts. Great
touchy-feely new-age fluff !  Rather than owners learning equine etiquette
and disciplining themselves to looking on from a distance but only touching
or handling at need, this 'imprinting' notion allows extremes of
interference, as if we were children who required justification for doing as
we wanted. Would vets like it if all horses exhibited 'learned helplessness'
and so were not unruly when being examined or treated? No doubt. But
veterinary convenience does not create any scientific basis for imprinting.

Warmest regards to all
Andy Beck

White Horse Farm Equine Ethology Project
Otaua
Northland
New Zealand/Aotearoa
http://www.equine-behavior.com
equine-research@equine-behavior.com
I am also moderator of the Equine-Behavior group at Yahoo groups, and take
this opportunity to cordially invite anyone specifically interested in horse
behavior to join.  e mail to: Equine-Behavior-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



From:	IN%"chrisrutt@ntlworld.com"  "chrisrutt" 22-AUG-2001 02:32:31.51
To:	IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au"  "Petherick, Carol (TBC)"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	Foal imprinting/socialization

I feel sure that Carol has the right of it here and "imprinting" has been
improperly used in place of "socialisation" in this "work" with foals.

My field is Agapornis parrots, which can be imprinted in the Lorenzian
sense, by hand feeding from day one, or socialised in the context used by
Carol by regular handling while being raised under parental care. However,
in this case even what appears to be Lorenzian "imprinting" can be
overridden in the imprinted adult by both reduced contact with the
"adoptive" parent, or by extended contact with its conspecifics.

Regarding "sensitive periods" for socialisation, there is frequent reference
to a window of opportunity (4-7 weeks) in literature on cats, which is born
out by my personal experience. In the Lovebirds there is a critical age
(about 21 days from hatch) after which the chick will refuse to learn to
feed voluntarily from a source other than the parent species.

R. Chris Rutt

chris@lovebirdsUK.org
www.lovebirdsUK.org

----- Original Message -----
From: "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" <PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au>
To: <joseph.stookey@usask.ca>; <ISAEnet-l@usask.ca>;
<applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca>
Sent: 22 August 2001 02:19
Subject: RE: Foal imprinting: Why should it work?


> Hi Joe
> Really would have like to have been at ISAE, but .... maybe next year!?
>
> Just a quick response to your thoughts.  I think this is about the
tendency
> to use "fashionable" terms/words without really understanding them.  What
> these horse owners are describing is not imprinting (filial attachments
and
> preferences as a result of exposure to and some predisposition for
> particular classes of stimuli) in the correct, technical sense of the
word.
> I believe they are talking about a 'socialisation' process - essentially
> getting the foal accustomed to the presence of and handling by humans in
the
> presence of the dam - a situation that's less likely to induce fear than
if
> the dam was absent.
>
> I believe that dogs are given the same treatment - young puppies are
handled
> etc in the presence of the bitch (but, isn't there also talk of
> 'critical/sensitive periods' for this socialisation to take place in
dogs?).
> I'm told that if pups don't get this then they are very fearful of
humans -
> but presumably this can be overcome with appropriate handling/training in
> time.  I know there are people out there who know MUCH more about this
than
> I do!
>
> I look forward to some stimulating discussion.
>
> Carol
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joseph Stookey [SMTP:joseph.stookey@usask.ca]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2001 11:56
> > To: ISAEnet-l@usask.ca; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> > Subject: Foal imprinting: Why should it work?
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > Bill Campbell just sent a message to the group asking about copies of
> > the ISAE abstracts presented at the ISAE meetings in Davis and I could
> > not help but think of all the conversations I wanted to have and all the
> > questions that I wish I would have asked at the meeting.
> >
> > For example, I noticed two papers this year that dealt with the question
> > of whether foals would benefit or change their behaviour towards people
> > at a later date if exposed, handled or "imprinted" onto people shortly
> > after birth (Oral paper by Sondergaard and Jago; Poster paper by
> > Williams, Friend, Toscano, Sisto and Nevill).  The horse industry is
> > quite high on the idea and I see and read all kinds of information by
> > horse people proclaiming the advantage of handling foals shortly after
> > birth.  In our area, the first thing horse people ask other horse owners
> > (when a proud owner boasts about a prized mare having foaled) is, "Did
> > you imprint the new foal and handle the foal shortly after birth?"  The
> > horse people here ask each other this question as if you would be a fool
> > NOT to IMPRINT the foal!  However, I am now aware of at least 3
> > scientific attempts to look at this question (I heard another student
> > project presented at a Cornell, NY meeting several years ago) and so far
> > none of them have shown conclusive evidence that there is any real
> > advantage gained from handling newborn foals.
> >
> > My comment/question/point is this: Surely imprinting in the classical
> > Lorenzian style works, but handling a foal for a few hours shortly after
> > birth seems to me to be very far removed from the classical imprinting
> > work.  Chicks, ducklings and goslings that imprint onto people do so in
> > the absence of their own mother.  Is there any evidence or work that
> > shows chicks, ducklings or goslings will imprint onto their mother AND a
> > human?  As a young boy we separated many young ducklings from their
> > mothers to prevent them from being eaten on our lake by snapping turtles
> > and predators and all of the ducklings would imprint onto us after being
> > removed from their mother shortly after hatching.  They did this with
> > very short exposures to us during feeding and watering, but I never saw
> > ducklings or chicks imprint onto their mother AND us!  Isn't the absence
> > of the mother a key ingredient in making the whole imprinting phenomenon
> > work between newly hatched poultry and people?  What evolutionary
> > advantage would there be for a neonate to imprint onto its mother and
> > any other creature that happened by during the first few days after
> > birth?  I suspect that young animals gain some information as they grow,
> > about the creatures that also occupy their world, but that is not the
> > same as imprinting.  Perhaps foals would form very strong attachments to
> > humans in the absence of the mare, but personally I would not expect a
> > couple hours of handling after birth or for the first couple of days to
> > have any impact on the foal's response to humans 6 months later, if the
> > foal was reared by its own mother during the first 6 months of its
> > life.  I am all in favor of taming and offering continuous positive
> > human exposure to young animals (and the sooner one starts the process -
> > probably the better the end results), but we are experiencing a whole
> > culture of dreamers within the horse industry who believe that a few
> > hours of intensive handling of foals shortly after birth has major
> > payoffs down the road.  Not only has the science been unable to show any
> > major advantage by handling foals for a few brief hours shortly after
> > birth, but the whole idea of foal imprinting, to me, seems a bit off the
> > mark.  Doesn't it?
> >
> > I am not trying to be critical of scientists investigating this area.
> > On the contrary, I think science is the best way to show the horse
> > industry (or skeptics like me) that it does or does not work.  But I am
> > being critical of horse people who automatically assume it should work
> > (with just a few hours of exposure after birth) and proclaim that it
> > does work simply because we know that newborn poultry imprint onto
> > people shortly after birth during a critical period of time.  Meanwhile
> > they ignore the fact that young poultry imprint onto people in the
> > absence of a real mother!
> >
> > Anyway, I found the entire ISAE conference exceptionally stimulating and
> > I think it would be great if we had a few more conversations on the net
> > about some of the papers.  I don't know why we have to wait 12 months in
> > between meetings to hear each others' thoughts!  I am not interested in
> > critically roasting other scientists, but to me it would be worthwhile
> > to further discuss some of the topics raised at the conference.
> >
> > Any other comments about foal imprinting and why I might be off the
> > mark, or any other comments about topics presented at the meeting?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Joe




From:	IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk"  "Chris Sherwin" 22-AUG-2001 02:57:34.86
To:	IN%"whfeep@ihug.co.nz"  "Andy Beck"
CC:	IN%"ISAEnet-l@usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au"  "Petherick, Carol (TBC)", IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Foal imprinting: Why should it work?

Dear Andy and others,

I believe Jo Stookey is totally correct to suggest the term 'imprinting' is 
inappropriate in this context, and it is enlightening to hear of Andy Beck's 
experience and arguement to support this.  But, Andy, I am really unsure about 
how wise it is to then use another term from learning theory, i.e. learned 
helplessness, to describe this form of socialisation.

The phenomenon of learned helplessness has a great history.  Whilst I agree this 
horse/human socialisation might share some of the characteristics of learned 
helplessnes, one only has to look at the operational definition to realise that 
an animal in learned helplessness has entered into a much more passive state 
that I imagine these horses to be in. Eisenstein et al. (1997) stated the major 
criteria of learned helplessness are: (1) following inescapable shock training, 
the animals often become passive and still when confronted with an escapable 
shock; (2) failure to escape shock when it is possible to do this following 
non-escapable shock; (3) reversion to non-escape behaviour even after successful 
escape. 

Are horses socialised in the 'imprinting' method extremely passive, are they 
always easily caught, do they never learn new methods of escaping being caught?

Just thoughts...

Chris



.............................................................
Dr C.M. Sherwin
UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
Centre for Behavioural Biology,
Department of Clinical Veterinary Science,
University of Bristol,
Langford House,
Langford,
BS40 5DU, U.K.


Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486   
Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582
email:  Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk


From:	IN%"elly-hiby@angelfire.com" 22-AUG-2001 03:25:55.37
To:	IN%"ISAEnet-l@usask.ca", IN%"whfeep@ihug.co.nz"  "Andy Beck"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au"  "Petherick, Carol (TBC)", IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Foal imprinting: Why should it work?

Dear Joe, Andy and all,

I agree whole heartedly with your call for more scientific research into the subject of 'foal imprinting'.  It may seem a dubious practice, especially when introduced to the concept by Dr. Miller, who has a rather invasive and long-winded approach to the process.
However, in addition to this I think it is important to clarify exactly what people are trying to achieve by this practice as I think Dr. Miller's use of the phrase 'imprinting' has muddied the subject somewhat.  From what I can gather the aim of this process is to 'desensitise' the horse to the sensation and experience of being handled by a human, and not to replace or equal the dam i.e. not to imprint the foal on you in the true scientific sense of the word.  
I think maybe the reason for the process becoming known as imprinting has to with the rational behind attempting to achieve this goal at birth.  As we all know, at birth the foal's brain is at a particular stage of development as too lend itself nicely to the formation of long term memories - hence the phenomenon of imprinting.  I think the idea behind Dr. Miller's approach is to make use of this stage and try to achieve the formation of long term memories in the foal for positive human contact.
My own take on this subject, having spent time training horses at a farm where a modified version of this technique was used, is that the method of 'imprinting' as described by Dr. Miller is unnecessarily invasive and may even in some cases damage the true process of imprinting taking place between mother and foal.  However, I also believe that there may be fruitful endeavour in investigating the effect of sympathetic and positive handling of foals at birth.  At the farm where I had experience of the technique the method was simply gentle and calm handling of the foal for no more than 20 minutes.  Ensuring that key areas (ears, poll, feet, saddle and girth areas) were touched until there was no aversive reaction from the foal.  They also allowed for foal-mother contact during the process.  In my experience, the youngsters that had been brought up in this way were far calmer and more confident in the presence of a human and had far less aversive reactions to being handled or saddled and bridled for the first
In my opinion this is an intriguing and thought provoking subject, and I hope very much that it will receive more attention from the scientific community.  Especially as the literature is awash with anecdotal reports and only a painfully small amount of real rigorous scientific investigation.  Thank to Joe and Andy for brining this subject to the discussion table.

My kindest regards to all

Elly Hiby

---
Anthrozoology Institute
University of Southampton
SO16 7PX

Tel (023)80594254
Mobile 07818 098131


On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:26:38  
 Andy Beck wrote:
>Kia ora from Aotearoa everyone,
>
>I have been intending to get around to introducing myself and the White
>Horse Farm Equine Ethology Project for a short while now, and this topic
>seems a good place to start!
>
>Yes, this whole question of foal imprinting is a good one, is it not?  And I
>think we might reasonably conclude that it is symptomatic of the whole 'new
>age' aproach to the horse.
>
>If I am correct, and I believe I am, the notion was first introduced by Dr R
>Miller, and I think it is possible that some part of the reason for such
>rapid acceptance of this new idea stems from the fact that Dr Miller is a
>vet and therefore confers a degree of scientific credibility on the idea. I
>did in fact attend the lecture that Dr Miller gave on the subject when he
>was here in NZ a few years ago. I must admit to having taken away the
>feeling that it had been a bit long on the"selfpublicist" element, and short
>on substance - but, nothing loath, I began to explore his technique,
>(instructional video in hand - figuratively speaking) - during the next
>foaling season.
>
>Foaling takes place here out in the open and within the harem group to which
>the mare is affiliated. Unlike many other accounts of foaling in herds,
>mares here do not go off alone but foal within the group and take full
>advantage of the herd support system. Foaling mares are watched over by
>sentinels - the number appearing to differ with the status of the mare.
>These would be younger mares without suckling foals at foot, maiden fillies,
>either their own progeny from previous years or progeny of close companions,
>and more rarely, but still on occasion, colts. These 'sentinels' do not
>interfere and are not allowed contact with the new foal - not even older
>siblings, but seem most intent on 'running interference' to prevent any
>unwarranted interuptions or threats. People who are not well known to the
>group are kept outside the protective circle. It is not unusual for the
>resident harem stallion to take an interest either, and to object quite
>firmly if the mare becomes even slightly agitated.
>
>It is vital that the foal imprints on the mare quickly so that it learns to
>follow only her - and no other! No other mare will feed the foal, and so a
>mistake here could mean death by starvation/exhaustion.
>Should a foal make the mistake of straying close to another mare it will be
>rejected quite forcefully so that it is in no doubt that this will not be
>tolerated.  The degree of aggression shown is in fact quite uncommon, and
>therefore remarkable given that the foal is relatively so small, and I
>believe shows the depth of 'importance' attached.
>
>I am on sufficiently good terms with, and accepted by, most mares, so that I
>am generally allowed through the cordon to inspect the foal. Brief and very
>gentle handling will also be allowed by some mares, but body language
>strongly suggests that this is bad protocol on my part, and taken as an
>imposition to perhaps be tolerated but certainly not welcomed. So whatever
>the foal may or may not think, the dam seems clearly unimpressed. If I were
>actually successful (despite the fact that essential maternal signal stimuli
>are missing from the top of my legs!) and the foal took to following me,
>equally with its mother, the outcome would be awful. I cannot see any
>scientific, or even anecdotal, evidence to suggest that it is within the
>species spectrum of behavioural strategy to share imprinting - but every
>logical reason to suggest that it would be maladaptive.
>
>It has been suggested by some, and I would concur, that Dr Miller's methods,
>far from being imprinting, actually more closely resemble the creation of
>'learned helplessness'.  If this is the case then we should be very careful
>as there is likely to be a distinct downside. Most, if not all, of the
>research on this phenomenon has been carried out on people, but if we were
>to assume, even for the sake of arguement, that the effects are likely to be
>similar then there is a probability of creating learning problems later on,
>and perhaps horses that tend toward inaction in the face of danger/threat.
>
>Finally I settled on a method, that appeares to work consistently, whereby I
>would wait for the mare to allow the foal 'out' into herd society in
>general. This is easily judged by her acceptance of other herd members
>coming into actual contact with the foal. At this point I too can begin to
>socialise, and instead of an atmosphere of tension, my doing so can be
>reinforced and supported by 'mum's' relaxed body language. It does also
>occasionally happen that an older sibling will approach me with the foal in
>tow, giving an appearance of facilitating social contact.
>
>There are many reasons why the idea of handling new-born foals has become
>fashionable, but perhaps most of these have to do with elements of human
>psychology such as control and power and, of course, they are charming,
>velvety little creatures that can easily evoke maternal instincts. Great
>touchy-feely new-age fluff !  Rather than owners learning equine etiquette
>and disciplining themselves to looking on from a distance but only touching
>or handling at need, this 'imprinting' notion allows extremes of
>interference, as if we were children who required justification for doing as
>we wanted. Would vets like it if all horses exhibited 'learned helplessness'
>and so were not unruly when being examined or treated? No doubt. But
>veterinary convenience does not create any scientific basis for imprinting.
>
>Warmest regards to all
>Andy Beck
>
>White Horse Farm Equine Ethology Project
>Otaua
>Northland
>New Zealand/Aotearoa
>http://www.equine-behavior.com
>equine-research@equine-behavior.com
>I am also moderator of the Equine-Behavior group at Yahoo groups, and take
>this opportunity to cordially invite anyone specifically interested in horse
>behavior to join.  e mail to: Equine-Behavior-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>


Get 250 color business cards for FREE!
http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/

From:	IN%"whfeep@ihug.co.nz"  "Andy Beck" 22-AUG-2001 05:30:55.35
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk"
Subj:	More on 'not imprinting'

Hi again everyone

I quite agree that there is an intent to desensitise, and that my concern
that there may be an element of 'learned helplessness' is perhaps not
scientifically justified - although Dr Millers video certainly does show
foals being treated to inescapable and very intrusive handling, and does
seem to result in a far greater degree of passivity than I think is at all
normal in my experience of foals. It may simply be that the degree of
inescapable manipulation is directly related to the degree of learned
helplessness exhibited. I seem to recall that one of the features of several
studies on learned helplessness, and I am working from memory here as it has
been some time since I researched the issue in depth, is that the effects
are not predictable but are dependent on a number of variables. We might
suggest, with some safety, that less reactive 'cold-bloods' would show a
marked difference in response from say AngloArabians.
If a method does not produce reasonably predictable results then it lacks
reliability for trainers who may well have only superficial understanding of
learning psychology.(to say nothing of having dollar conscious owners to
please)

Elly Hiby mentions ongoing good treatment and I completely agree. My trials
strongly suggest that it is this that is most likely to produce ease of
training later on, that early handling does not by itself produce this
result, and indeed that it does not seem to make much difference whether or
not it is done. Having established a record of kind and predictable
treatment the young horse is much more willing to trust a handler during new
and novel experiences.

I do also have a suggestion with regard to how young horses can be raised to
be a delight to work with, and one that I believe has a far greater impact
than any brief handling technique during the first few days. We expect - as
a result of extensive research - that a dysfunctional family setting during
the formative years of human youth is likely to produce an individual with
poor social and educational skills. I can see no compelling reason why we
should not fairly expect the same in young horses. Raising young horses in
social groups that allow good expression of natural behaviours does, in my
experience, produce a more balanced individual than solitary confinement and
sensory deprivation in stables could be expected to, no matter how many
desensitisation techniques are used.

warm regards
Andy.
White Horse Farm.


From:	IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com"  "Amy Coffman" 22-AUG-2001 06:10:34.43
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Foal imprinting: Why should it work?

Hi Joe et al,

  I attended ISAE for the first time this year, and did see the poster you
mentioned but did not attend the talk. The questions you raise cut right to
the heart of the matter, IMO.  I have handled horses professionally as a
breeder and trainer for over a dozen years now, and the growing popularity
of imprinting has concerned me.  It has become almost a "politically
correct" way of handling newborns, despite the fact that---to my
knowledge---scientific support for its efficacy in this application is
sketchy and anecdotal at best.

    A number of years ago when Miller's imprinting book was getting a lot of
press, I kept being asked by customers if my foals were imprinted. They
hadn't been, but they were all friendly and would approach people in the
pasture, which invariably made the people say "oh, you must have imprinted
him!"   When I would say No, I hadn't, the people would sometimes comment
that I was really lucky to have such friendly foals, as if they couldn't
have developed that way through handling unless it was via imprinting.

   This brings up another aspect which falls more in a philosophical realm,
but is equally disturbing to me: the "why" of subjecting a neonate to this
stressful and often very invasive procedure.  People who are fans of foal
imprinting will tell you that it makes them "easier to handle" when they are
older. My question would be, Why are you having such trouble handling them?
If a person has problems with youngsters, year after year, the problem is
with the handler or his techniques, not the animal. I feel very
uncomfortable with an approach that seeks to "rewire" an animal on a very
basic level, in order to compensate for what is actually the handler's
deficit.

   As to the learned helplessness comments--yes, I would tend to agree.  I
did "imprint" one of my own foals during the height of the imprinting
fanfare, after lengthy study of Miller's book and video (I had already read
Lorenz and didn't see a great deal of similarity). In short, the experience
was extremely upsetting for both me and the foal, a large, vigorous filly
that I had to struggle to keep down.  I had a feeling throughout that what I
was doing was simply *wrong* in a vaguely moral/ethical way. At the end of
the requisite repetitions of stimuli, the filly did indeed seem to have
reached a learned helplessness state and made no further attempts to rise.
(Believe me, I am very big on keeping my breeding herd in a natural
environment, so I felt like I had committed a crime by this time.) After
some time, I finally had to lift this filly to a standing position and help
her find the teat, something I've never had to do with any other foal.  As
she matured, she was not quite as friendly or sociable as my normal,
untouched little guys in the pasture.  I felt sure at the time that what I
was witnessing was much more closer to a learned helplessness phenomenon
than any sort of "imprinting" on me. Miller is very keen on using dominance
and threat to create submissive horses---this just seems to me to be that
same ideology in a slightly different form. The borrowed term "imprinting"
gives it an air of scientific credibility---and perhaps mystery---that may
have contributed to its acceptance (without scrutiny) by the masses.

   An interesting aside, a very fine, tactful horseman named Mark Rashid is
a friend of mine. He conducts clinics and now works with hundreds of horses
a year.  Mark has gotten to where he can frequently recognize within a
minute an adult horse who was "imprinted" at birth, but not for positive
reasons.
He told me that he'd found these horses to be somewhat dull and
unresponsive, and that they often ended up requiring more overt stimuli
before they would respond to anything. Mark is an extremely subtle,
considerate horseman who takes pride in keeping his cues to a minimum, and
he was clearly troubled by this trend, feeling that it robbed the horse of
the very responsiveness that would allow its future training to progress in
the most humane manner.

   I've got to run now, but hope to find more discussion on this when I
return!

  Amy Coffman
Painted Moon Ranch
Colbert, OK USA




From:	IN%"celtoi@hotmail.com"  "Wind Runner Chapman" 22-AUG-2001 07:17:18.45
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Foal imprinting: Why should it work?

I have found that foals do not imprint. However, something is happening when 
classic imprinting methods are used. The horses that I have trained that 
were "imprinted" on humans tended to MUCH less respectful of humans than 
their counter parts that were handled just enough to keep them "gentle." I 
know due to the current fashion of the equine industry that my views may be 
scoffed at, but until I have funding for a legitimate study, there will be 
no numbers.
Simper ubi sububi   :~)


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


From:	IN%"ErikaP@humanesociety.mb.ca"  "Erika Pfeiffer" 22-AUG-2001 07:53:55.99
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "'applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca'"
CC:	
Subj:	horse body language vs. imprinting

I've been listening in on the discussion of "imprinting" foals.
It would seem to me that if more of the lay people who raise and train
horses would learn more about how to read their horses' body language there
would be less need to "imprint" (as they call it) as soon as the baby hits
the ground. The people I used to deal with when I was in mixed practice were
very busy with births and often interfered and did more harm than good in
order to "get the foal used to people". As Monty Roberts "work" has reaches
more of these lay people, some are now understanding the importance of
listening to what the horse's body language is saying in order to facilitate
training later in life. I think that the appeal is greater in touching the
new foal and feeling as if they had something to do with it (it is their
baby too) rather than the obtaining the patience to watch and understand how
horses naturally and normally do this on their own. Unfortunately, much of
the behaviour work is not accessible to them but speakers like Dr. Miller
and Mr. Roberts are.


Erika M Pfeiffer MSc, DVM
Director of Animal Health
Winnipeg Humane Society
(204) 982-3553
www.humanesociety.mb.ca


From:	IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu"  "Garner, Joseph P." 22-AUG-2001 10:37:37.33
To:	IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net"  "'Bill Campbell'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: ISAE 2001 Meeting papers/abstracts

The entire proceedings can be accessed by conference attendees in electronic
format by visiting the website, otherwise please contact sue heekin at the
conference e-mail address to order printed copies.

cheers

Joe

__________________________

Dr. Joseph Garner,
University of California,
Department of Animal Science,
One Shields Avenue,
Davis,
CA 95616
USA

Phone: (530) 752 1253
Fax: (530) 752 0175


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Campbell [mailto:billcamp@cdsnet.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 11:22 AM
> To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
> Subject: ISAE 2001 Meeting papers/abstracts
> 
> 
> Greeting from Oregon,
> 
> Does anyone have a source for obtaining copies of some of the 
> landmark presentations at the UC Davis ISAE conference?
> 
> Thanks, with high hopes,
> 
> Bill Campbell
> P.O. Box 1658
> Grants Pass, OR 97528
> http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior
> tel 541-476-5775
> fax 541-476-5523
> 

From:	IN%"Houx.Vinke@wxs.nl"  "Houx" 22-AUG-2001 11:57:23.73
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Foal imprinting; What is "socialisation"?

Dear all,

The implication Joe Stookey's question  to the nature of  "foal imprinting"
is a very important one. I agree with him and the other responders that the
term "imprinting" (filial nor sexual) by definition does not explain the
phenomenon of habituation of companion animals to human interaction, which
is generally captured by the term "socialising". But then, how can we
explain "socialisation"? Is there a generally accepted definition, and what
are the proximate and ultimate explanations?

A quick scan of literature showed that there is quite some variation in the
use of "socialisation". It seems to me that the term is used in at least
three different contexts: (1) as synonym for (filial) imprinting, (2) to
describe the development of intraspecific social behaviour, especially to
particular individuals (esp. in primatology), (3) to describe the
development of social behaviour towards humans (esp. in dogs). Probably (2)
and (3) are related for domesticated animals (see Scott & Fuller, 1965: Dog
Behavior; The Genetic Basis).

I am relatively new in the field of applied animal behaviour, but I have
some experience in the field of vocal learning in songbirds. The
song-learning process shows many interesting similarities to imprinting
(some crude "innate" template of stimuli to learn and a critical period,
see the special volume of the Netherlands Journal of Zoology, vol.43(2),
1993) Depending on the species of songbird, the song-learning process seems
to be more or less fixed (see Snowdon & Hausberger, 1997: Social Influences
on Vocal Development). A recent topic is that some bird species not only
have to learn what to sing, but they also have to learn the appropriate
context to sing in. Those birds seem to have a period in which they have to
learn "social rules" (see the recent studies of West & King on cowbirds and
starlings). Similarly, in social mammals like guinea pigs learning of
social rules at adolescent age seems to be essential for adequate social
behaviour in later life (see studies from the group of Sachser). As there
are many reports of a "critical period" for socialisation, one wonders to
what extent this phenomenon is causally related to imprinting and vocal
learning.

In order to understand the process of "socialisation" more fully (and also
because of the practical relevance) I am very interested in information on
the following subjects:
- To what extent is "socialisation" related to imprinting? Is it an
alternative to imprinting for altricial and social species? Is
socialisation specific to particular species?
- Can "socialisation" be explained by a simple habituation-learning?
- To what extent is it important to learn social behaviour or social
rules? Is this related to the formation of social bonds (other than
kinship- or sexual-bonds; e.g. coalitions)?
- But above all, is there a clear and unified definition or description of
"socialisation"? Is such definition specific to some species (as may be the
case in dogs), or are we dealing with a more diffuse concept, consisting of
a combination of different (species specific) processes?


With friendly regards,
Bart Houx


	Dr. B. B. Houx
	Ethology and Animal Welfare
	Utrecht University
	Yalelaan 17 
	NL - 3584 CL Utrecht 
	The Netherlands

	Tel. + 31 (0)30 2534868
	Fax + 31 (0)30 2539227 
	B.B.Houx@las.vet.uu.nl 
	http://www.icwd.nl/ 

From:	IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu"  "Garner, Joseph P." 22-AUG-2001 11:58:57.07
To:	IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net"  "'Bill Campbell'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "'applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca'"
CC:	
Subj:	Correction: RE: ISAE 2001 Meeting papers/abstracts

ooopsie, I've been away for a few days. Apparrently we are not selling
printed copies of the proceedings at this time. electronic copies are
available, but only to participants.

sorry for the confusion

cheers

Joe

__________________________

Dr. Joseph Garner,
University of California,
Department of Animal Science,
One Shields Avenue,
Davis,
CA 95616
USA

Phone: (530) 752 1253
Fax: (530) 752 0175


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Campbell [mailto:billcamp@cdsnet.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 11:22 AM
> To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
> Subject: ISAE 2001 Meeting papers/abstracts
> 
> 
> Greeting from Oregon,
> 
> Does anyone have a source for obtaining copies of some of the 
> landmark presentations at the UC Davis ISAE conference?
> 
> Thanks, with high hopes,
> 
> Bill Campbell
> P.O. Box 1658
> Grants Pass, OR 97528
> http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior
> tel 541-476-5775
> fax 541-476-5523
> 

From:	IN%"whfeep@ihug.co.nz"  "Andy Beck" 23-AUG-2001 02:53:49.45
To:	IN%"Houx.Vinke@wxs.nl"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	Socialisation

Dear Houx

I share your view on the question of socialisation in that it is far =
from clear exactly what is meant by the term.  I think use of the term =
'imprinting' in connection with interaction between foals, whether =
newborn or otherwise, and humans, except in the specific case of a mare =
having died during foaling resulting in a human having to undertake the =
role of surrogate mother, is quite wrong, and equally the suggestion =
that forced contact should be termed socialisation. My mail to the group =
set out my reasons in full.

I would like to attempt to share some opinions, for whatever they may be =
worth, on the questions you put forward, strictly within my own =
specialisation of Equine Ethology.

You mention one of the variable definitions of 'socialisation' as, and I =
quote: "to describe the development of intraspecific social =
behaviour....."  I think this is probably the best unqualified usage. =
Perhaps any other use should be qualified in a case-specific manner?

In the case of my work with horses I would apply the term to the process =
an individual may experience, at any point during its life, which allows =
it to function normally in a 'natural' social group of members of the =
same species.  My use of 'may' is predicated by the fact that many, if =
not most, domestic horses are raised in environments where the =
opportunity to develop successful social paradigms is missing. It is =
quite a common to find horses that are able to perform happily at home =
but when put in the company of other, albeit strange, horses are said to =
'spin out' by which is meant suffer a nervous episode. You mentioned =
primates, and I think you will find that experiments carried out on =
chimpanzees, where newborns were removed from their mothers and raised =
in isolation, showed that when these individuals were put in with other =
chimpanzees they lacked the social skills required to socialise and were =
extremely stressed by the experience. It would seem that this is common =
to most mammal species.=20

I have had to 'socialise' dysfunctional horses here on various =
occasions, and have done so by careful introduction of the newcomer to =
small social groups. It takes a great deal of time - usually in excess =
of a year and even then, in the case of adults, has not been completely =
successful. Many mares or fillies are raised without ever having seen a =
male horse of any kind and, when these are put to stud for the first =
time, are very nervous and uncertain. In the horse racing industry this =
will often result in tranquillisers or restraints being used in order to =
protect both stallion and mare from injury. The same is true of colts or =
stallions raised away from female horses, and in fact goes further in =
that a natural element of colt play in 'bachelor' groups is that, by =
practicing rearing, they become more adept at mounting and are better =
able to properly align themselves when later addressing mares during =
service. In comparison, both colts and fillies born and raised in =
'natural' harem groups exhibit none of these problems. I can only =
conclude that it is a social environment, the design parameters of which =
allow for the expression of naturally occurring behaviours that provides =
opportunities to develop a successful social paradigm - or to become =
socialised.

I have been working for some time on the proposition that horses possess =
culture and that, in common with ourselves, this varies from population =
to population. Environment would seem to have the greatest impact, and I =
would consider 'management' (human manipulation) as an element. It is =
culture within a population that facilitates the passing on, from one =
generation to the next, of skills and learned behaviours - however =
simple or complex they may be - that enable them to function =
successfully within a unique environment,  i.e. the expression of =
culture as an evolutionary survival trait.

We would expect a child that had been raised in isolation from other =
people to be without culture and to have problems communicating or =
relating socially to other people  (studies of 'wolf' or feral children =
confirm this). It is my suggestion that a horse, or chimpanzee, that has =
been raised in this way should be expected to lack culture in the same =
way.  If my hypothesis is sound, then socialisation would, I think, =
rightly be considered a component of culture, and case sensitive from =
one culture to another

What do you think?=20

regards

Andy Beck
White Horse Farm Equine Ethology Project
Northland
New Zealand

From:	IN%"Lesley.King@linacre.oxford.ac.uk"  "Lesley Anne King" 23-AUG-2001 13:39:04.66
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'"
CC:	
Subj:	vacuum, redirected, adjunctive, displacement?

In a situation where an animal is frustrated from achieving the end result
of a goal-directed behaviour, such as a chicken that does not receive food
following pecking and foraging, some strange behaviours may appear. These
may be the same behaviour directed at an inappropriate target or a
qualitatively different version of the behaviour, or a behaviour that seems
to have no relation to the original behaviour. My question is: when is a
behaviour redirected, vacuum, adjunctive or a displacement? What are the
subtle (or not so subtle) differences between each type of behavior? Or do
they describe the same thing? Are these terms of any use? I ask as trawling
literature I find almost interchangeable definitions! Your thoughts and
argument would be most welcome.
Lesley 

From:	IN%"varlyakov@ram-trakia.org"  "Ivan Varlyakov" 25-AUG-2001 04:18:10.03
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Hi

Hi,

Dear friends,

It's great pleasure for me to be back in our Network after 3 year absent.

My new position in Regional Association of Municipalities gives me limited
possibilities to investigate behaviour of animals and big chance to
investigate human behaviour - of mayors and municipality staff. In the same
time I have my seminars and lectures with the students in the Trakia
University and I'm happy in sphere of Animal Welfare and improving of new
legislation according with the association of our country to EC.

I'll be happy to hear for old friends from Harper Adams College, Kiel
University, Foulum Research Institute, Godollo Exp. Farm etc.

Best regards,

Ivan Varlyakov

Stara Zagora, Bulgaria

varlyakov@ram-trakia.org or ivarlyakov@yahoo.com


From:	IN%"christine.moinard@bbsrc.ac.uk"  "christine moinard (RI)" 28-AUG-2001 08:50:17.41
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	post-doc position

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--Boundary_(ID_lNTc+9FI+snxQbdvC17hTQ)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

the following position is now being advertised

------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-

ROSLIN INSTITUTE (EDINBURGH)


POSTDOCTORAL RESEARCH OPPORTUNITY IN POULTRY BEHAVIOUR

The expression of undesirable behaviours can seriously damage poultry
welfare and productivity. A postdoctoral researcher is required to work =
with
Dr Bryan Jones and his team on genetic and environmental factors =
influencing
selected behaviour patterns in chickens and quail. Traits of interest
include sociality, feather pecking, fear, and stress-susceptibility.
Environmental studies will focus on the effects of environmental =
enrichment,
housing systems, lighting, and olfactory stimulation. Candidates must =
have
substantial postdoctoral experience of research in animal behaviour, a
background in life sciences or psychology, a good knowledge of =
statistics,
the ability to multi-task, and a willingness to travel.=20

The post is for 4 years and salary will be in the range =A319,500 to =
=A323,000
p.a., commensurate with experience.

Please send expressions of interest to: Bryan.Jones@bbsrc.ac.uk

Closing date for completed applications is Monday 8th October 2001


--Boundary_(ID_lNTc+9FI+snxQbdvC17hTQ)
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From:	IN%"rudy.demeester@pi.be"  "de meester rudy" 29-AUG-2001 01:03:42.64
To:	IN%"dmills@dmu.ac.be"  "'dmills@dmu.ac.be'", IN%"doreen.planta@wxs.nl"  "'doreen.planta@wxs.nl'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "'applied-ethology'"
CC:	
Subj:	FW:

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van:	de meester rudy [SMTP:rudy.demeester@pi.be]
Verzonden:	zondag 5 augustus 2001 16:58
Aan:	'claude.beata@wanadoo.fr'; 'dmills@dmu.ac.be'
CC:	'MagaliHay@gstress.u-bordeaux2.fr'; 'doreen.planta@wxs.nl'
Onderwerp:	


Hi to all,

For a lecture in oktober for FECAVA I am urgently seeking for information 
on the new evolution in the approach in your country. Any political or 
 professional evolution, statements of important persons or organisations, 
everything that can be interesting to comment for an international audience 
of vets is more than wellcome. I'll make a report for this group also.

Thanks a lot,

Rudy De Meester


dr. Rudy De Meester dvm


From:	IN%"rudy.demeester@pi.be"  "de meester rudy" 29-AUG-2001 04:16:36.36
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "'applied-ethology'"
CC:	
Subj:	addendum to my former message

Sorry... 
I see I forgot to mention the subject! 
I am looking for information on dog agression and the way your government is handling it. 

Thanks a lot in advance
and kind regards

dr. Rudy De Meester dvm


From:	IN%"mjturgeon@cdpqinc.qc.ca"  "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Marie-Jos=E9e_Turgeon?=" 29-AUG-2001 07:14:36.48
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)"
CC:	
Subj:	government

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hi everyone!

I am actually working on a project to do a "world wide" evaluation of
legislation and on farm practices that promote the welfare in the field
of pig production. We are just beginning our search. Ren=E9e Bergeron
(Laval University in Qu=E9bec) is in charge. Lyne L=E9tourneau from =
Laval
and Suzanne Robert from Agriculture Canada in Lennoxville are also
working with us. While searching the ressources on the web I found that
the Canadian Federation of Humane Societies web site ( www.cfhs.ca
<http://www.cfhs.ca> ) contains a lot of information on laws (and the
new Bill C15) and everything regarding welfare issues. You will find a
lot of interesting links also and the way to look into all the provinces
of Canada for particular laws.=20

I wish you good search!

Marie :)

Marie-Jos=E9e Turgeon, agr
Charg=E9e de projet
Centre de d=E9veloppement du porc du Qu=E9bec
2795, boul. Laurier, bureau 340
Sainte-Foy (Qu=E9bec) Canada G1V 4M7
T=E9l=E9phone 418-650-2440
T=E9l=E9copieur 418-650-1626
mjturgeon@cdpqinc.qc.ca=20


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ryone!</SPAN></P>=0D=0A<P><SPAN class=3D373455812-29082001>I am actua=
lly working on a project to do a =0D=0A"world wide" evaluation of leg=
islation and on farm practices that promote the =0D=0Awelfare in the =
field of pig production. We are just beginning our search. Ren=E9e =
=0D=0ABergeron (Laval University in Qu=E9bec) is in charge. Lyne L=
=E9tourneau from =0D=0ALaval&nbsp; and Suzanne Robert from Agricultur=
e Canada in Lennoxville are also =0D=0Aworking with us. While searchi=
ng=20
the ressources on the web I found that the =0D=0ACanadian Federation =
of Humane Societies web site (<A =0D=0Ahref=3D"http://www.cfhs.ca">ww=
w.cfhs.ca</A>) contains a lot of information on laws =0D=0A(and the n=
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 provinces of =0D=0ACanada for particular laws. </SPAN></P>=0D=0A<P><=
SPAN class=3D373455812-29082001>I wish you good search!</SPAN></P>=
=0D=0A<P><SPAN class=3D373455812-29082001>Marie :)</SPAN></P>=0D=0A<P=
>
<SPAN class=3D373455812-29082001></SPAN><FONT size=3D2>Marie-Jos=E9e =
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--Boundary_(ID_PZJTJIusQ86/aqMZ7RVLmg)--

From:	IN%"Meredith@Farmline.Com"  "Michael Meredith" 29-AUG-2001 08:14:04.28
To:	IN%"mjturgeon@cdpqinc.qc.ca"  "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Marie-Jos=E9e_Turgeon?=", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: government legislation - pig production

Hi Marie-Josée,

Increasingly pigmeat quality assurance (QA) schemes play a part in welfare
regulation, for UK information see...
http://www.pighealth.com/News99/MLC.HTM

We have a webpage on UK legislation at:
http://www.pighealth.com/News99/WELFUK.HTM

For some discussion of the interaction of pressure groups on legislation
see...
http://www.pighealth.com/welfare.htm

Dr. Mike Appleby's book gives lots of background to legislation, details at:
http://www.pighealth.com/MEDIA/P/BOOKS/BEHAVBKS.HTM


Good Luck!
Mike Meredith

----- Original Message -----
From: Marie-Josée Turgeon <mjturgeon@cdpqinc.qc.ca>
To: Applied Ethology Network (E-mail) <c>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 2:17 PM
Subject: government
Hi everyone!
I am actually working on a project to do a "world wide" evaluation of
legislation and on farm practices that promote the welfare in the field
of pig production. We are just beginning our search. Renée Bergeron
(Laval University in Québec) is in charge. Lyne Létourneau from Laval
and Suzanne Robert from Agriculture Canada in Lennoxville are also
working with us. While searching the ressources on the web I found that
the Canadian Federation of Humane Societies web site ( www.cfhs.ca
<http://www.cfhs.ca> ) contains a lot of information on laws (and the
new Bill C15) and everything regarding welfare issues. You will find a
lot of interesting links also and the way to look into all the provinces
of Canada for particular laws.

I wish you good search!

Marie :)

Marie-Josée Turgeon, agr
Chargée de projet
Centre de développement du porc du Québec
2795, boul. Laurier, bureau 340
Sainte-Foy (Québec) Canada G1V 4M7
Téléphone 418-650-2440
Télécopieur 418-650-1626
mjturgeon@cdpqinc.qc.ca




From:	IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu"  "Ted Friend" 29-AUG-2001 08:55:27.60
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Training Guidelines - help

Folks,

I am involved in helping draft some proposed guidelines for the training of
performing animals.  This may eventually evolve into Codes of Practice for
circuses in North America..  

If anyone out there has been involved in a similar endeavor for any
species, or is aware of some similar type of statement regarding the use of
positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, punishment, etc., in any
type of training context, please contact me.  Dog or horse trainer
organizations, for example, may have some type of a policy statement that
could be very helpful.

Thanks for your help.

Ted Friend





============================================================================
====

Ted H. Friend, Ph.D., PAS, Dpl. ACAABS
Professor, Applied Ethology
Department of Animal Science
Texas A&M University
College Station, TX, USA  77843-2471
Phone: (979) 845-5265
Fax: (979) 845-5292
Email: t-friend@tamu.edu
============================================================================
====

From:	IN%"mjwylie@facstaff.wisc.edu"  "M.J. Wylie" 29-AUG-2001 09:54:55.14
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Training Guidelines Request

In response to Ted Friend:

There several sources that I can think of that you may wish to explore.  I 
think it's a matter of looking at what's out there and deciding what's 
applicable to your situation.  So here's a list of where I'd look (off the 
top of my head....please contact me if you want more information about any 
and I can track it down......):

1.  Last year the American Humane Association sent out a draft for review 
of "Humane Dog Training Standards".  Constance Howard was the person 
collecting comments (303/792-9900).

2. The Association of Pet Dog Trainers has worked on guidelines.  I believe 
that Steve Lindsay had involvement with that specific committee at one 
point.  I have an older draft version.  (Ian Dunbar was the founder of APDT).

3.  The North American Dog Obedience Instructors have guidelines and this 
(NADOI) is one of the older organizations.

4.  Many service dog organizations have written guidelines.  Delta Society 
would be a place to check out.

5.  The Animal Trainers Forum (a Specific Interest Group of the Association 
for Behavior Analysis) does not have any published guidelines that I am 
aware of.......but many of those members may be able to help you locate 
what you need.
(Karen Pryor was instrumental in getting the Animal Trainers Forum 
established).

6.  There are several "zoo" associations......I can get you a list of the 
people that I would check with for suggested places to look.

7.  Marian and Bob Bailey are pioneers in training of "show" animals using 
operant conditioning.  They currently offer "chicken training" workshops to 
help people learn the mechanic skills needed.  http://www.hsnp.com/behavior/
They also spent many years training OTHERS how to train animals and 
maintain those behaviors while "on the road".

8.  There are some horse training policy statements by various 
organizations.....but the majority that come to mind right off are 
extremely breed and/or performance specific.

9.  I vaguely remember, I *think*, some kind of general guidelines re: 
training (brief) from AVMA?  and maybe AAEP?

10.  In the past two years, there have been several books published which 
discuss dog training and behavior.  Sections of these writings may help you 
in your endeavor!!  And of course, those books are at home and I'm in my 
office!!  So if you want my "list".....let me know and I'll try to pull one 
together!!

11.  At the University of Wisconsin, I am involved with a "hands-on" 
portion of the Humane Officer Training course offered by the Wisconsin 
Department of Agriculture, Trade, and Consumer Protection.  I organize the 
horse, beef cattle, and dairy cattle sessions.  The Missouri Law 
Enforcement Training Institute organizes the majority of the course 
content.  This group also trains humane officers in many other 
states.  Mike Gillingham is the person I have contact with in Missouri.  He 
may know of some guidelines that assist Humane Officers in determining if a 
particular training "method" or the specific "use" of a method warrants 
further investigation or not.  Just another angle to explore!!

I'm sure that as soons as I hit the "send" button......many more possible 
options to explore will pop into my head!!
*******************************
M.J. Wylie, Ph.D.
Extension Horse Specialist
Professional Animal Scientist, ARPAS
286 Animal Science Building
1675 Observatory Drive
Department of Animal Sciences
University of Wisconsin
Madison, WI  53706
Voice - 608/263-4303;  FAX - 608/262-5157
mj.wylie@ces.uwex.edu
http://www.uwex.edu/ces/animalscience/horses/


From:	IN%"Shetts@aol.com" 29-AUG-2001 15:00:59.77
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Training Guidelines Request

In a message dated 08/29/2001 9:55:29 AM Mountain Daylight Time, 
mjwylie@facstaff.wisc.edu writes:


> .  Last year the American Humane Association sent out a draft for review 
> of "Humane Dog Training Standards".  Constance Howard was the person 
> collecting comments (303/792-9900).
> 
> 2. The Association of Pet Dog Trainers has worked on guidelines.  I believe 
> that Steve Lindsay had involvement with that specific committee at one 
> point.  I have an older draft version.  (Ian Dunbar was the founder of 
> APDT).
> 
> 3.  The North American Dog Obedience Instructors have guidelines and this 
> (NADOI) is one of the older organizations.
> 
> 4.  Many service dog organizations have written guidelines.  Delta Society 
> would be a place to check out.
> 
> 
I posted a reply to Ted privately - but will post to the list as there is 
some confusion here.
Three years ago, Delta Society contracted with AHA to produce a document on 
humane dog training.  I've been the scientific director for that project.  To 
make a long story short, 2 documents will be released in the next few weeks.  
One from Delta Society, titled Professional Standards for Dog Trainers: 
Effective, Humane Principles, and one from AHA directed toward the general 
public which will have a title similar to Guidelines for Humane Dog Training.
Representatives from both NADOI (National Association of Dog Obedience 
INstructors, NOT North Amer. Dog ----- which is no longer in existence) and 
APDT as well as many other organziations participated in this project.
APDT has their own code of ethics separate from the project, and I think 
NADOI does too - you can check out their respective websites at apdt. com and 
NADOI.org.
Delta's document can soon be ordered from their website 
(www.deltasociety.org), and probably AHA's can as well, although I am not 
sure about that.
Both publications will be presented at upcoming conferences - AHA's national 
conference in  D.C. and the IAHAIO in Rio in Sept.  - I'll be co-presenting 
at the latter wiht Linda Hines from Delta and Dr. Lynn Anderson from AHA.
In fact, one of the reasons Delta funded this project was because in 
developing their SDES program to train service dog trainers, they made a 
commitment that only humane methods would be used, and found that there were 
no existing guidelines defining humane training.
Suzanne


Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D.
Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Animal Behavior Associates, Inc.
Littleton, CO
www.animalbehaviorassociates.com

From:	IN%"jburch@virtu.sar.usf.edu"  "Julia Burch (NC)" 29-AUG-2001 16:12:33.40
To:	IN%"Meredith@Farmline.Com"  "Michael Meredith"
CC:	IN%"mjturgeon@cdpqinc.qc.ca"  "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Marie-Jos=E9e_Turgeon?=", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: government legislation - pig production

You might want to=20

On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Michael Meredith wrote:

> Hi Marie-Jos=E9e,
>=20
> Increasingly pigmeat quality assurance (QA) schemes play a part in welfar=
e
> regulation, for UK information see...
> http://www.pighealth.com/News99/MLC.HTM
>=20
> We have a webpage on UK legislation at:
> http://www.pighealth.com/News99/WELFUK.HTM
>=20
> For some discussion of the interaction of pressure groups on legislation
> see...
> http://www.pighealth.com/welfare.htm
>=20
> Dr. Mike Appleby's book gives lots of background to legislation, details =
at:
> http://www.pighealth.com/MEDIA/P/BOOKS/BEHAVBKS.HTM
>=20
>=20
> Good Luck!
> Mike Meredith
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marie-Jos=E9e Turgeon <mjturgeon@cdpqinc.qc.ca>
> To: Applied Ethology Network (E-mail) <c>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 2:17 PM
> Subject: government
> Hi everyone!
> I am actually working on a project to do a "world wide" evaluation of
> legislation and on farm practices that promote the welfare in the field
> of pig production. We are just beginning our search. Ren=E9e Bergeron
> (Laval University in Qu=E9bec) is in charge. Lyne L=E9tourneau from Laval
> and Suzanne Robert from Agriculture Canada in Lennoxville are also
> working with us. While searching the ressources on the web I found that
> the Canadian Federation of Humane Societies web site ( www.cfhs.ca
> <http://www.cfhs.ca> ) contains a lot of information on laws (and the
> new Bill C15) and everything regarding welfare issues. You will find a
> lot of interesting links also and the way to look into all the provinces
> of Canada for particular laws.
>=20
> I wish you good search!
>=20
> Marie :)
>=20
> Marie-Jos=E9e Turgeon, agr
> Charg=E9e de projet
> Centre de d=E9veloppement du porc du Qu=E9bec
> 2795, boul. Laurier, bureau 340
> Sainte-Foy (Qu=E9bec) Canada G1V 4M7
> T=E9l=E9phone 418-650-2440
> T=E9l=E9copieur 418-650-1626
> mjturgeon@cdpqinc.qc.ca
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


From:	IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au"  "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 30-AUG-2001 16:36:36.72
To:	IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu"  "'Ted Friend'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Training Guidelines - help

Ted
The Qld Dept Primary Industries has published a Code of Practice for the
welfare of animals in circuses.  Did I send a copy to you previously?  If
not I'll arrange to have one mailed to you.  Personally I'm not sure the
statements on negative and positive reinforcement are technically correct,
but the Code was written as a 'users' guide', not for the scientific
fraternity.  Get back to me if you want a copy.
Carol
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ted Friend [SMTP:t-friend@tamu.edu]
> Sent:	Thursday, 30 August 2001 0:55
> To:	applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Subject:	Training Guidelines - help
> 
> Folks,
> 
> I am involved in helping draft some proposed guidelines for the training
> of
> performing animals.  This may eventually evolve into Codes of Practice for
> circuses in North America..  
> 
> If anyone out there has been involved in a similar endeavor for any
> species, or is aware of some similar type of statement regarding the use
> of
> positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, punishment, etc., in any
> type of training context, please contact me.  Dog or horse trainer
> organizations, for example, may have some type of a policy statement that
> could be very helpful.
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> Ted Friend
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ==========================================================================
> ==
> ====
> 
> Ted H. Friend, Ph.D., PAS, Dpl. ACAABS
> Professor, Applied Ethology
> Department of Animal Science
> Texas A&M University
> College Station, TX, USA  77843-2471
> Phone: (979) 845-5265
> Fax: (979) 845-5292
> Email: t-friend@tamu.edu
> ==========================================================================
> ==
> ====
> 
********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
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(which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally 
privileged.  It is intended only for the use of the person or entity 
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or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised.  Opinions 
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this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and 
delete it from your computer system network.


From:	IN%"csimpson@vt.edu"  "csimpson" 31-AUG-2001 05:12:40.46
To:	IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	introduction

Hello,  As a brief introduction, my name is Cheryl Simpson-Freeman and I'm a 
freshman veterinary student at the Virginia Maryland Regional College.  We 
were asked to join this list as part of an ethology class.  My main interests 
are small animals and horses but I would like to experience working with zoo 
animals at some point in my training. This is a second career for me. 


From:	IN%"Juan.Pratdesaba@aventis.com" 31-AUG-2001 12:09:41.34
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	introduction

Hello everyone:
	My name is Juan Jos=E9 Pratdesaba, I am a bioligist and my interests
are placed specially in wild animals behavior, such as mammals and =
insects,
of course i'm interested in dogs and cats behavior. I work in the
pharmaceutical ambience, specially in vaccines area, so if there's =
anything
i can do for anyone, I'll be in touch.
Best regards,
Juan Jos=E9