From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" "W. Ray Stricklin" 16-AUG-2002 04:53:40.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied" CC: Subj: [Fwd: Re: enculturation] Message was intended for the group and I am forwarding accordingly. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: enculturation Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:55:23 -0500 From: Patricia Mcconnell To: "W. Ray Stricklin" References: <412D098B2703D311AD74005004774DCF0165CE22@asmail.ucdavis.edu><3D5B9693.39692903@umail.umd.edu> Oh dear, I'm leaving town in a half hour and have no business taking time now to answer this (seems many of us are in a similar boat!), but I couldn't resist jumping into this interesting and important discussion. (Pay no attention to the line in the left, the paragraph below is from me as well) >Most importantly, I want to say that Ray's comments about the strong >bias "against" (excuse my being simplistic to save time) domestic >animals are extremely important to biologists interested in >behavior. This bias, I would argue, has inhibited a tremendous >amount of potentially valuable research. Just one of hundreds of >possible examples: There is great interest in the causal factors >relating to social behavior, and here we have a species - the >domestic dog - that has a variety of genetic backgrounds, and a vast >range of social living conditions (village dog). Given the >facultative nature of sociality in many species (coyotes for >example), and given the interesting discussion that the Coppingers >have facilitated about the social behavior of dogs vs. wolves --- >surely there's a gold mine for researchers here. Yes, of course the >interaction of dogs with humans makes things a bit more complicated, >but that is no reason not to do research on them. That's the same >excuse medical researchers used to use when doing drug tests only on >men, because women's cycles added confounding factors. That logic >hasn't worn well over time, and neither should the same one made in >relation to domestic animals. There are a myriad of other examples of how little we actually know about domestic animal behavior, and how that lack has theory and application have suffered. Ken Yasakawa tells me there are over 1,000 published studies on the calls of Redwinged Blackbirds. How many are there on dog barks? How much research has there been on tail movement in the domestic dog (for ex: what internal state or behavior does "circle wag" correlate with? any research?). For my own Ph.D., I used humans communicating acoustically to working domestic animals as a model to test a hypothesis about the function of acoustic communication in mammals, and although it was just one study, I think most people agree such a perspective was a useful addition to our science. Gotta run, but thank you all for this interesting and important discussion. I'll check in again when I return on the 20th. Trisha > > Regarding the subject of brain size in wild and domestic animals, Coppinger >> and Coppinger (2001) in their recent book entitled "The Dog" summarize work >> done on head size and shape and brain size in domestic dogs, wolves, coyotes >> and jackals. All of these species have the same head and brain dimensions >> when they are born and they tend to have the same growth trajectories until >> they are 10 or 12 weeks old. After that time, wolves grow bigger heads and >> brains than dogs of equal size. If a 45 kilogram dog is compared with a 45 >> kg wolf, the dog's head is about 20% smaller. If skull sizes are matched >> (big dog and normal size wolf), the dog's brain is about 10% smaller. >> > > >My interests draw me to this discussion but rationally I know that I >should limit my time! I will try to make some brief comments - >primarily through questions - which I hope appropriate and constructive. > >1) I have not read Coppinger's recent book. However, I had him visit >Maryland about 8 to 10 years ago and from what I could understand of his >ideas, he argued that canines (dogs, wolves, coyotes, etc.) were >basically one gene pool! I could not get him to say that the wolf was >the ancestor to the dog. If the wolf is not the ancestor, then why >should one compare their brain sizes at maturity when attempting to draw >up general rules about the influence of domestication? And maybe most >important, does a difference in brain size between between the dog and >wolf provide evidence of a decrease due to domestication _or_ is it >evidence that the wolf is not the true (or sole) ancestor of the >domestic dog? And maybe the recent Coppinger book answers these >questions... > > >2) Both Darwin and Lorenz, of whom I have great admiration for their >overall contributions, had a contemptuous view of domestication. They >both saw the domestic animal as a lessor being compared to their wild >counterpart - and I believe both Darwin and Lorenz were wrong in holding >this value judgment regarding domestication. I further believe that >their ideas - and writings - have canalized the study of biology into >investigations that continue to seek evidence in support of their >biases. If scientists for many years falsely reported differences in >brain size for humans, why can this not also be true for animals? (Not >that Gould did not make his share of mistakes, but I do agree with him - >in _The Mismeasure of Man_ - for pointing out that scientists can too >frequently wrongly find results to support their existing biases.) As >asked earlier in this discussion, has brain size actually decreased or >has only body size increased due to domestication? And again, have the >reports about body to brain ratio taken into account changes in body >mass that are associated with changes in body fat content? Age? >Nutrition? And the many other factors that influence body size? I >remain skeptical that domestication - itself, whatever that is - has >reduced brain size in animals. If domestication - in the genetic sense >- has reduced the brain and/or intelligence, then I ask again why has >this not occurred in humans (an idea which, to my regret, Lorenz seems >to have given at least some indirect support when discussing >domestication in general - even in his last book _Civilized Man's Eight >Deadly Sins_)? > >3) And if brain size has decreased through domestication, I would argue >that it is important that we know that this has in fact occurred. >Additionally, I would say that it is even more important that we know >_why_ this has occurred. Have we humans selected against cognitive >ability because less brain capacity results in animals that are more >tractable? I doubt this, in part, because the majority of domestic >animals lived outside and independent of close confinement until quite >recently. Cognitive ability relative to predator aversion, >thermoregulation - even learning associated with factors such as food >location - was and is quite important for survival of cattle, sheep, >horses, etc. living under conditions experienced even today. So I see >no ready explanation as to why humans would have preferred "less >intelligent" animals. In fact it seems that one could build an argument >(which I think is related to how Mike started this discussion) that >humans may have preferred the "more intelligent" animals - when one >views intelligence relative to that of humans. (But one has to >acknowledge that there does exist behavior in domestic animals that >seems counterintuitive to this position such as sheep showing little or >no aversion to attacks by canines, broilers not engaging in >thermoregulatory behavior during heat stress, etc. But I still believe >that these may lie in the realm of exceptions and not the rule; that >these are not examples for a general rule of consequences that always >result from domestication.) > >4) And finally, after not having succeeded in writing a short message, >let me say that I am not contending that the brain has not changed in >relation to domestication. Rather, I am saying that I believe that >historically there has been a bias in biology contending that >domestication has genetically changed animals to a state of less mental >capacity - and that scientists have primarily approached the topic by >looking for support of this position including the somewhat recent brain >size reports. And again, I would contend that there is a need for more >investigation of the topic of brain size to body size for all domestic >animal species that is carefully designed to take into account the many >factors that can influence each. (And also for studies that are related >to domestic animal cognitive ability itself which is independent of >brain size as has been noted.) > > >And Mike when I read through what I have written, I find sentences with >3-4 or more negatives! But I hope that their meaning is clear for I will >not take the time to change them. > > >Regards to all, > >Ray Stricklin -- *********************************** Patricia B. McConnell, Ph.D. Ass't Adjunct Professor, Dept. of Zoology, UW-Madison Birge Hall, Madison, Wisconsin 53706 Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist Dog's Best Friend, Ltd. P.O. Box 447 Black Earth, Wisconsin 53515 608 767-2435 FAX 608 767-3726 (Send mail or calls here, not to UW) ************************************ From: IN%"simon@gadbois.com" "simon gadbois" 16-AUG-2002 11:39:51.88 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: enculturation > So I think that the size differences (at least for canids) is real, > but I > question what this really means with regards to cognition? Just > looking at > gross growth patterns really doesn't tell us very much about what the > brain > is actually doing. The information we really need is where in the > brain is > this growth occurring; is it an overall size increase or differences in > specific brain regions? The size differences could be due to a greater > development of the areas of the brain involved in sensory motor patterns > and not have much to do with areas that cognition occurs. For example, > rats utilize their olfactory sense a great deal and if one looks at > their > brains, a lot of neuronal tissue is devoted to the olfactory bulbs. > Does > this mean that a rat is more capable of complex thought than a similar > sized rodent species that does not have the olfactory bulb developed to > the > same degree? So looking at overall size or mass may not really be > telling > us all we really want to know. > I agree with this statement completely. From a neuroscience AND psychological perspective, I would emphasize that size does not matter. I think we should rather focus on how efficient the brain of dogs is versus the brain of wolves. If any structural differences are found, I would think they reside in the neural networks and pathways. As pointed out by Calvin and Deacon, when language is considered, the human brain is showing, especially for writing and reading, signs that is it only starting to get organized for these new (relatively and evolutionarily speaking) functions. How the brain of the dog "re-organized" is, in my opinion, more relevant than wondering about the significance of the size of the brain. As pointed out by Janice, the next step is to determine how this re-organization changed awareness, cognitions, emotions, motivations, etc. the same way the reproductive system was changed (e.g., 2 annual oestri in most breeds). Early, unplanned, unconscious, selective breeding likely focused on "wolves" that were fairly responsive to the human environment and perspicacious of human intentions, emotions, etc. There is little doubt in my mind that such a breeding focus can impact the behaviour of future generations. ~~~~~ Simon Gadbois Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada Behavioural endocrinology and canine ethology. http://www.Gadbois.org/ ~~~~~~ Simon Gadbois www.gadbois.org From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" 18-AUG-2002 14:24:59.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: phone clev worm message Just a worning: I received Sunday AM Pac. Time. USA a post from applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca an email saying I could forever be free from the dreaded klev worm if I'd download and run an anti virus program attached. However, it instructs the receiver to ignore their anti-virus warnings. I opened this message in my internet provider's mail box and phoned them about it. They advised I delete it, since they had never heard of such a program. It was apparently sent to the list from Bill Campbell From: IN%"bcsmith@capital.net" 19-AUG-2002 06:34:51.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: animal brains and technology I am going to jump in here with the talk about brain size, development, etc. and add a twist. Years ago after working in Applied Ethology with swine and other farm animals I had the experience of working at a medical center with a group of neuroscientists researching the gustatory pathways in the rat brain. The techniques of surgically lesioning, implanting electrodes, locating loci, electrically stimulating loci, fixing tissue, sectioning, staining, immunohistochemical tracing, mapping, etc. is some of the toughest, tedious, and challenging lab work I have experienced. All the time I worked in the lab couldn't help but reflect on large farm animals. I kept wondering what information would be revealed if we had this same in depth work on the brain. (I know for poultry we do have a good base of neuro work.) I also kept thinking that technology would someday give us a less invasive way to study the brain and over time practical field tools. I imagine there are not that many folks that have access to expensive medical imaging tools. Perhaps some of you that work with vet schools. I think we have a case where our questions, hypotheses, about our large animal subjects are not yet matched by affordable practical technologies for testing. Of course I may be totally wrong. I'm hoping times have changed. Do we have anyone conducting brain research on large animals on the list that would like to comment? Are there tools out there that one can take out to pastures, barns, etc. to study brain activity in live animals without surgically implanting electrodes? Cynthia Smith, M.S. Technical Information Specialist USDA/ARS/NAL Animal Welfare Information Center http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic From: IN%"J.G.van_Dijk.neur@lumc.nl" "Dijk, J.G. van (NEUR)" 19-AUG-2002 09:59:33.85 To: IN%"bcsmith@capital.net" "'bcsmith@capital.net'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: animal brains and technology As a clinical neurophysiologist I might be able to answer this in part. About the only thing concerning brain function that you can measure easily outside a lab is the EEG. There is routine equipment to measure 24 hour EEG in people, so I suppose that technically the same thing could be measured in animals. The problem is that the link between EEG and function in terms of intelligence or brain development is very weak, so you would probably not be able to do anything really useful with it. As for brain structure, echo techniques might give you a measurement of inner skull width, but I doubt that this would be more helpful than using calipers etc. on the outside of the skull. The equipment is at least not extremely bulky and can be moved. Hope this helps (probably not a lot) Gert van Dijk clinical neurophysiologist Leiden University Medical Centre The Netherlands -----Original Message----- From: Cynthia Smith [mailto:bcsmith@capital.net] Sent: maandag 19 augustus 2002 14:33 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: animal brains and technology I am going to jump in here with the talk about brain size, development, etc. and add a twist. Years ago after working in Applied Ethology with swine and other farm animals I had the experience of working at a medical center with a group of neuroscientists researching the gustatory pathways in the rat brain. The techniques of surgically lesioning, implanting electrodes, locating loci, electrically stimulating loci, fixing tissue, sectioning, staining, immunohistochemical tracing, mapping, etc. is some of the toughest, tedious, and challenging lab work I have experienced. All the time I worked in the lab couldn't help but reflect on large farm animals. I kept wondering what information would be revealed if we had this same in depth work on the brain. (I know for poultry we do have a good base of neuro work.) I also kept thinking that technology would someday give us a less invasive way to study the brain and over time practical field tools. I imagine there are not that many folks that have access to expensive medical imaging tools. Perhaps some of you that work with vet schools. I think we have a case where our questions, hypotheses, about our large animal subjects are not yet matched by affordable practical technologies for testing. Of course I may be totally wrong. I'm hoping times have changed. Do we have anyone conducting brain research on large animals on the list that would like to comment? Are there tools out there that one can take out to pastures, barns, etc. to study brain activity in live animals without surgically implanting electrodes? Cynthia Smith, M.S. Technical Information Specialist USDA/ARS/NAL Animal Welfare Information Center http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic From: IN%"Jon.Day@adas.co.uk" "Jon Day" 19-AUG-2002 10:04:27.97 To: IN%"ISAEnet-l@usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Vacancy: ADAS Pig Research Unit, UK. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_3cYOooP5sa/qOZZW8HoqDQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT ADAS Pig Research Unit, King's Lynn, Norfolk, UK SCIENTIFIC OFFICER - PIGS Applications are invited for the post of ADAS Scientific Officer within the ADAS Pig Research Unit at Terrington. The ADAS Pig Research Unit has a 240 sow herd on which a wide range of experiments are carried out to defined high quality standards. Current research areas include pig welfare, environmental issues and nutrition. Duties will involve working with pigs and will include the setting up of and performance of experiments, collecting and recording data and the handling and use of equipment. Work is carried out in accordance with standard operating procedures, for which training will be provided. The successful candidate will work as a member of a team, but will be expected to work unsupervised at times and to use their initiative. Minimum qualification level is 4 GCSEs at pass level or above, including Mathematics and a Science. Candidates should be able to demonstrate a knowledge and experience of pig production or have experience in animal production research work. A knowledge of Microsoft Excel would be an advantage. The starting salary, dependent on qualifications and experience, will be in the range of £10,300-£13,000 pa. The appointment offers a holiday entitlement of 25 days per year and the option to join a company pension scheme after one year. Please contact Roberta Doughty for further details and an application form. Telephone 01553 828621, ADAS Terrington, Terrington St. Clement, King's Lynn, Norfolk, PE34 4PW. The closing date for completed applications is Friday 6 September 2002 ADAS is an equal opportunities employer. Kind regards, Jon. _________________________________________ Dr. Jon E. L. Day ADAS Terrington Terrington St. Clement King's Lynn Norfolk PE34 4PW UNITED KINGDOM TEL: +44(0)1553 825891 (Direct) TEL: +44(0)1553 828621 (Secretary) MOBILE: 07774 602876 E-MAIL: Jon.Day@ADAS.co.uk ******************************************************************************* The information transmitted is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by parties other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Opinions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of ADAS are neither given nor endorsed by it. For more information on ADAS, visit our website at http://www.adas.co.uk. ******************************************************************************* --Boundary_(ID_3cYOooP5sa/qOZZW8HoqDQ) Content-type: application/msword; name="SCIENTIFIC OFFICER job advert.doc" Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64 Content-disposition: attachment; filename="SCIENTIFIC OFFICER job advert.doc" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAA IwAAAAAAAAAAEAAAJQAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAACIAAAD///////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// AQD+/wMKAAD/////BgkCAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARhgAAABNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCBE b2N1bWVudAAKAAAATVNXb3JkRG9jABAAAABXb3JkLkRvY3VtZW50LjgA9DmycQAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= --Boundary_(ID_3cYOooP5sa/qOZZW8HoqDQ)-- From: IN%"M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl" "Matthijs Schilder" 20-AUG-2002 02:38:14.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: enculturation Dear Ed and all, The dog is a very interesting case to study cognition, just because THE dog does not exist. The should be a large difference in problem solving capabilities between dogs bred to work under command (like the german shepherd) or dog that were bred to work independently orm human influence (terrier types, for instance). These differences also may express themselves in related fields. One example to illustrate this difference is the fact that many a small terrier type will take on a far larger dog. Obviously, the procedures that serve to assess the fighting ability of an opponent, that should be at work in any dog, seem to work differently in terriers. An extreme example I watched was a 12 weeks old Yorkshire terrier pup attacking an adult Bouvier des Flandres. Such an assessment procedure is a cognitive process, I assume, in which all kinds of information regarding own and others' capabilities and also of nterests to be gained or lost should be weighed. I would therefore not be surprised when certain breeds may be just as good or even better than wolves, whereas other breeds (those, excelling in obedience training) will probably be worse. regards, Matthijs Schilder dr M.B.H. Schilder Utrecht University WCDM Yalelaan 17 3584CZ Utrecht, the Netherlands tel +31 30 2534784 fax +31 30 2539227 From: IN%"laura.hanninen@helsinki.fi" "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Laura_H=E4nninen?=" 20-AUG-2002 03:10:30.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"EEG@mappi.helsinki.fi", IN%"and@mappi.helsinki.fi", IN%"farm@mappi.helsinki.fi", IN%"animals@mappi.helsinki.fi" Subj: As Gert van Dijk allready pointed out, the EEG can be registered also from farm animals. During past 2 years non-invasive methods have been developed for registering the EEG from calves (by us) and sheeps (by a colleague M. Cockram from Britain). But the methods are still quite rough and not applicable for very detailed neurological studies. Best wishes Laura Hänninen XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Laura Hänninen, DVM Researcher, PhD-student tel. +358-9-191 49 514/mobile +358-400-903 120/fax. +358-9-191 49 670 Animal Hygiene/Dept. of Clinical Veterinary Science/Faculty of Veterinary Medicine/P.O.Box 57/00014 Helsinki University XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX From: IN%"laura.hanninen@helsinki.fi" "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Laura_H=E4nninen?=" 20-AUG-2002 03:12:53.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: EEG and farm animals As Gert van Dijk already pointed out, the EEG can be registered also from farm animals. During the past 2 years non-invasive methods have been developed for registering the EEG from calves (by us) and sheeps (by a colleague M. Cockram from Britain). But the methods are still quite rough and not applicable for very detailed neurological studies. Best wishes Laura Hänninen XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Laura.Hanninen@helsinki.fi Laura Hänninen, DVM Researcher, PhD-student tel. +358-9-191 49 514/mobile +358-400-903 120/fax. +358-9-191 49 670 Animal Hygiene/Dept. of Clinical Veterinary Science/Faculty of Veterinary Medicine/P.O.Box 57/00014 Helsinki University XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX From: IN%"h.toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" "Helen toner" 23-AUG-2002 08:10:36.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dear all, I have a friend who is looking for information on possible causes of maternal aggression in horses, particularly that involving the death of offspring. If any of you have any information or references it would be much appreciated. Thankyou Helen ---------------------- Helen toner From: IN%"J.G.van_Dijk.neur@lumc.nl" "Dijk, J.G. van (NEUR)" 23-AUG-2002 09:22:39.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: emotional fainting in animals Dear all, (I have asked this once before, but perhaps there are new members present now) I am a neurologist and interested in biological links with medicine. One of my interests is fainting (syncope), particularly the vasovagal, emotional type. As about one of every three people has fainted, you may recognize this: a relatively mild pain or fear stimulus triggers a reflex, causing blood pressure to drop and heart rate to fall. In other words, the circulation is shut down, and unconsciousness is the result. From a neurological perspective, a large part of the human physiology seems designed to keep the brain going at almost any cost, so this is a weird reflex indeed, without survival value (or at least I think this to be extremely unlikely - people can hurt falling, and can undertake no action whatsoever-). Note: This is NOT tonic immobility (TI), Todstellreflex or 'playing possum'. In TI, the brain keeps on working, and the circulation is not shut down. I wondered whether this is a purely human feature, and could not find anything to sugegst emotional fainting in animals. I asked the primatologist Frans de Waal, who replied that he had never seen it or heard of it in chimpanzees. If no-one, in the myriad of hours that people have spent with animals, has ever seen any animal fainting due to slight pain or fear, than this suggests that it is a purely human phenomemon (and before you say that it is due up upright stance, it is not: emotional fainting can occur, rarely, in people who are lying down). If it does only occur in man, than self-consciousness may have something to do with it. What other animal submits voluntarily to being stuck with a needle, or suppresses a lively reaction (jumping, shouting) when faced with fear. Perhaps we would not faint if we reacted more like chimpanzees? Anyway, al this 'neurosophy' is worthless if emotional fainting DOES occur in animals... Does anyone know? PS wouldn't it be ironic if one of the few things that make us human would be fainting? Gert van Dijk Professor of clinical neurophysiology Leiden University Medical Centre Leiden, The Netherlands From: IN%"Ulrika.Lindstrom@dv.sjv.se" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ulrika_Lindstr=F6m?=" 26-AUG-2002 03:22:52.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: SV: emotional fainting in animals I've heard about several cases of horses "falling down" when their = saddle girths has been tightened. I don't know if this has anything to = do with fainting, if it is a voluntary behaviour or not. I've never got = an explanation to this behavior and never seen it myself. A friend claims claims her Icelandic mare fainted under stress during = several occations during the years she owned her. One day she found the = horse dead at pasture, maybe there was something wrong with her which = was the cause of the behavior. Ulrika Lindstr=F6m Large and small animal veterinarian, Vaderstad, sweden -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Dijk, J.G. van (NEUR) [mailto:J.G.van_Dijk.neur@lumc.nl] Skickat: den 23 augusti 2002 17:22 Till: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca =C4mne: emotional fainting in animals Dear all, (I have asked this once before, but perhaps there are new members = present now) I am a neurologist and interested in biological links with medicine. One = of my interests is fainting (syncope), particularly the vasovagal, = emotional type. As about one of every three people has fainted, you may recognize this: a relatively mild pain or fear stimulus triggers a reflex, causing blood pressure to drop and heart rate to fall. In other words, the circulation is shut down, and unconsciousness is the result. From a neurological perspective, a large part of the human physiology seems designed to keep the brain going at almost any cost, so this is a weird reflex indeed, without survival value (or at least I think this to be extremely unlikely - people can hurt falling, and can undertake no = action whatsoever-). Note: This is NOT tonic immobility (TI), Todstellreflex or 'playing = possum'. In TI, the brain keeps on working, and the circulation is not shut down. I wondered whether this is a purely human feature, and could not find anything to sugegst emotional fainting in animals. I asked the = primatologist Frans de Waal, who replied that he had never seen it or heard of it in chimpanzees. If no-one, in the myriad of hours that people have spent = with animals, has ever seen any animal fainting due to slight pain or fear, = than this suggests that it is a purely human phenomemon (and before you say = that it is due up upright stance, it is not: emotional fainting can occur, rarely, in people who are lying down). If it does only occur in man, than self-consciousness may have something = to do with it. What other animal submits voluntarily to being stuck with a needle, or suppresses a lively reaction (jumping, shouting) when faced = with fear. Perhaps we would not faint if we reacted more like chimpanzees? =20 Anyway, al this 'neurosophy' is worthless if emotional fainting DOES = occur in animals... Does anyone know? PS wouldn't it be ironic if one of the few things that make us human = would be fainting? Gert van Dijk Professor of clinical neurophysiology Leiden University Medical Centre Leiden, The Netherlands =20 From: IN%"mappleby@hsus.org" "Michael Appleby" 26-AUG-2002 09:51:40.14 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: emotional fainting in animals Dear Gert van Dijk There is a line of goats that 'faints' frequently. They are well known to those who know about goats - but not to me - and have been selected and kept specifically for this capacity: I suppose people find it amusing. The basis and ethics of this were discussed on this forum some years ago so you may be able to find that discussion in the archive. I was at an agricultural fair last week and there were a couple of these goats there. The notice said something to the effect that 'They don't really faint: they have a genetic defect'. I don't know what that means. It is not apparent to me how they could appear to faint without 'really' fainting. The intention of the notice seemed to be to apologise, but if it is a genetic defect that has been maintained by deliberate selection that's not much of an apology. Mike Michael C. Appleby (Dr) Vice-President Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture The Humane Society of the United States 2100 L Street, NW Washington, DC 20037, USA Switchboard 1 202 452 1100 Direct 1 301 258 3111 Fax 1 301 258 3081 Email mappleby@hsus.org -----Original Message----- From: Dijk, J.G. van (NEUR) [mailto:J.G.van_Dijk.neur@lumc.nl] Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 11:22 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: emotional fainting in animals Dear all, (I have asked this once before, but perhaps there are new members present now) I am a neurologist and interested in biological links with medicine. One of my interests is fainting (syncope), particularly the vasovagal, emotional type. As about one of every three people has fainted, you may recognize this: a relatively mild pain or fear stimulus triggers a reflex, causing blood pressure to drop and heart rate to fall. In other words, the circulation is shut down, and unconsciousness is the result. From a neurological perspective, a large part of the human physiology seems designed to keep the brain going at almost any cost, so this is a weird reflex indeed, without survival value (or at least I think this to be extremely unlikely - people can hurt falling, and can undertake no action whatsoever-). Note: This is NOT tonic immobility (TI), Todstellreflex or 'playing possum'. In TI, the brain keeps on working, and the circulation is not shut down. I wondered whether this is a purely human feature, and could not find anything to sugegst emotional fainting in animals. I asked the primatologist Frans de Waal, who replied that he had never seen it or heard of it in chimpanzees. If no-one, in the myriad of hours that people have spent with animals, has ever seen any animal fainting due to slight pain or fear, than this suggests that it is a purely human phenomemon (and before you say that it is due up upright stance, it is not: emotional fainting can occur, rarely, in people who are lying down). If it does only occur in man, than self-consciousness may have something to do with it. What other animal submits voluntarily to being stuck with a needle, or suppresses a lively reaction (jumping, shouting) when faced with fear. Perhaps we would not faint if we reacted more like chimpanzees? Anyway, al this 'neurosophy' is worthless if emotional fainting DOES occur in animals... Does anyone know? PS wouldn't it be ironic if one of the few things that make us human would be fainting? Gert van Dijk Professor of clinical neurophysiology Leiden University Medical Centre Leiden, The Netherlands From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" "Steven Lindsay" 26-AUG-2002 13:34:32.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: emotional fainting in animals Hello, The =B3fainting=B2 exhibited by these goats is apparently caused by hereditary myotonia. When aroused by certain enviormental stimuli or locomotor efforts the heart rate of affected goats races as the musculature becomes rigid, whereupon the goat may fall down or, if in a stable upright posture, stand =B3rigid as though carved from wood=B2 (Lush, 1930:245), thus the nickname =B3Tennessee Wooden-Leg=B2. Myotonic episodes last for 10 to 20 seconds (Gipson, 1996). The affected goats do not lose consciousness. A comparabl= e condition in humans is Thomsen=B9s disease. In addition to startle, even the effort to jump over a stick or other minor environmental disturbances may trigger myotonic rigidity in these goats. The episodic myotonia of such goats does not seem comparable to human fainting--see Lush (1930). Steve Lindsay Ref's Gipson, T.A. 1996. Genetic resources for meat goat production. Proceedings Southeast Regional Meat Production Symposium. Feb. 24, 1996, Tallahassee, F= L http://www.vsu.edu/ext/smallruminantprogram/meatgoat/publications/tag6.html Lush, J.L. 1930. "Nervous" goats. J. Hered. 21:242-247. on 8/26/02 11:51 AM, Michael Appleby at mappleby@hsus.org wrote: > Dear Gert van Dijk >=20 > There is a line of goats that 'faints' frequently. They are well known to > those who know about goats - but not to me - and have been selected and k= ept > specifically for this capacity: I suppose people find it amusing. The bas= is > and ethics of this were discussed on this forum some years ago so you may= be > able to find that discussion in the archive. >=20 > I was at an agricultural fair last week and there were a couple of these = goats > there. The notice said something to the effect that 'They don't really fa= int: > they have a genetic defect'. I don't know what that means. It is not appa= rent > to me how they could appear to faint without 'really' fainting. The inten= tion > of the notice seemed to be to apologise, but if it is a genetic defect th= at > has been maintained by deliberate selection that's not much of an apology= . >=20 > Mike >=20 > Michael C. Appleby (Dr) > Vice-President > Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture > The Humane Society of the United States > 2100 L Street, NW Washington, DC 20037, USA > Switchboard 1 202 452 1100 > Direct 1 301 258 3111 > Fax 1 301 258 3081 > Email mappleby@hsus.org >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dijk, J.G. van (NEUR) [mailto:J.G.van_Dijk.neur@lumc.nl] > Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 11:22 AM > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: emotional fainting in animals >=20 >=20 > Dear all, >=20 > (I have asked this once before, but perhaps there are new members present > now) >=20 > I am a neurologist and interested in biological links with medicine. One = of my > interests is fainting (syncope), particularly the vasovagal, emotional ty= pe. > As about one of every three people has fainted, you may recognize > this: a relatively mild pain or fear stimulus triggers a reflex, causing = blood > pressure to drop and heart rate to fall. In other words, the circulation = is > shut down, and unconsciousness is the result. From a neurological perspec= tive, > a large part of the human physiology seems designed to keep the brain goi= ng at > almost any cost, so this is a weird reflex indeed, without survival value= (or > at least I think this to be extremely unlikely - people can hurt falling,= and > can undertake no action whatsoever-). >=20 > Note: This is NOT tonic immobility (TI), Todstellreflex or 'playing possu= m'. > In TI, the brain keeps on working, and the circulation is not shut down. >=20 > I wondered whether this is a purely human feature, and could not find any= thing > to sugegst emotional fainting in animals. I asked the primatologist Frans= de > Waal, who replied that he had never seen it or heard of it in chimpanzees= . If > no-one, in the myriad of hours that people have spent with animals, has e= ver > seen any animal fainting due to slight pain or fear, than this suggests t= hat > it is a purely human phenomemon (and before you say that it is due up upr= ight > stance, it is not: emotional fainting can occur, rarely, in people who ar= e > lying down). >=20 > If it does only occur in man, than self-consciousness may have something = to do > with it. What other animal submits voluntarily to being stuck with a need= le, > or suppresses a lively reaction (jumping, shouting) when faced with fear. > Perhaps we would not faint if we reacted more like chimpanzees? >=20 > Anyway, al this 'neurosophy' is worthless if emotional fainting DOES occu= r in > animals... >=20 > Does anyone know? >=20 > PS wouldn't it be ironic if one of the few things that make us human woul= d be > fainting? >=20 >=20 >=20 > Gert van Dijk > Professor of clinical neurophysiology > Leiden University Medical Centre > Leiden, The Netherlands >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 26-AUG-2002 15:25:25.18 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: fainting goats http://www.webworksltd.com/webpub/goats/faintinggoat.html This article describes the difference between fainting goats and a true faint as well as the reason people continue to breed them--the muscle lock up creates an isometric tension that builds muscle yielding about 40% meat increase. Horses falling down when their girths are tightened sound like a horse that is deliberately dropping as a way of outwitting a human. A fairly common horse trait. Very dangerous while riding. The Icelandic mare sounds more like a faint or physical problem. Could this fainting be due to the change in primate posture when humans started to stand erect but did not develop similar compensating traits that giraffes have to handle changes in blood pressure? Or could fainting be a compensation for surges in blood pressure related to adrenaline surges? The knock out affect of a blow to the neck according to our karate instructor is due to the sudden surge of blood pressure when striking the carotid artery. The body tries to compensate by dropping the blood pressure drastically. A properly done sleeper hold does the same and can take effect within a heartbeat or so. If the hold is not applied with speed and precision to the right point on the neck, it takes much longer to disable as the blood supply is reduced to the brain. 2 separate modes of knockout. Julie Alexander From: IN%"ndiehl@psu.edu" "Nancy Diehl" 26-AUG-2002 16:46:08.55 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: fainting The horse collapsing at girth tightening is quite possibly narcolepsy. One of the more commonly reported (and I have observed one myself) elicitors of a narcoleptic episode is tightening the girth. Now from what I have been reading and hearing, I think we are starting to more carefully define narcolepsy and some of the collapsing or falling horses are perhaps not true narcoleptics. By the way, narcolepsy is quite common in miniature horse foals and they appear to usually outgrow it in a few weeks or within a few months. When those little guys have an episode they are absolutely flacid and unstirrable for a minute or two - quite scarey if you are not prepared for it. Nancy Diehl MS, VMD Assistant Professor of Equine Science Department of Dairy and Animal Science Penn State University From: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz" "Andy Beck" 26-AUG-2002 17:34:34.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: fainting goats > Julie Alexander > Horses falling down when their girths are tightened sound like a horse > that > is deliberately dropping as a way of outwitting a human. A fairly common > horse trait. Very dangerous while riding. I agree with Julie's comments here, having worked with a horse that had developed this strategy as part of a general work intolerance, and would drop either when the girth was tightened or while under rider and saddle - there was no apparent loss of consciousness. I was also contacted over an older mare falling down while resting. This was happening only at or around onset of oestrus and seemed to me to suggest a blood pressure problem might be the cause. Sadly there were no funds available to search for a definitive answer. Regards to all Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project Northland Aotearoa - N.Z. http://www.equine-behavior.com From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" 26-AUG-2002 17:51:34.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: emotional fainting in animals Dear Friends, I've seen (once) and heard of psychomotor seizures in pet dogs. Triggers for this have been social actions around the animal, such as the family undertaking musical endeavors invloving a piano, violin and and one person (the owner) singing classical opera I once saw a video (too many years ago to recal by whom) in which the condition/subject was narcolepsy. The living subjects were several dogs and humans. A Google Advanced Search turns up findings on the gentic link in dogs and interesting comparisons to the human condition. Search words in the MUST CONTAIN copy line: narcolepsy dog no quotes around it. It's fascinating to study and seems to answer many questions I've read on this list. Bill Campbell BehavioRx Systems billcamp@cdsnet.net Dear all, (I have asked this once before, but perhaps there are new members present now) I am a neurologist and interested in biological links with medicine. One of my interests is fainting (syncope), particularly the vasovagal, emotional type. As about one of every three people has fainted, you may recognize this: a relatively mild pain or fear stimulus triggers a reflex, causing blood pressure to drop and heart rate to fall. In other words, the circulation is shut down, and unconsciousness is the result. From a neurological perspective, a large part of the human physiology seems designed to keep the brain going at almost any cost, so this is a weird reflex indeed, without survival value (or at least I think this to be extremely unlikely - people can hurt falling, and can undertake no action whatsoever-). Note: This is NOT tonic immobility (TI), Todstellreflex or 'playing possum'. In TI, the brain keeps on working, and the circulation is not shut down. I wondered whether this is a purely human feature, and could not find anything to sugegst emotional fainting in animals. I asked the primatologist Frans de Waal, who replied that he had never seen it or heard of it in chimpanzees. If no-one, in the myriad of hours that people have spent with animals, has ever seen any animal fainting due to slight pain or fear, than this suggests that it is a purely human phenomemon (and before you say that it is due up upright stance, it is not: emotional fainting can occur, rarely, in people who are lying down). If it does only occur in man, than self-consciousness may have something to do with it. What other animal submits voluntarily to being stuck with a needle, or suppresses a lively reaction (jumping, shouting) when faced with fear. Perhaps we would not faint if we reacted more like chimpanzees? Anyway, al this 'neurosophy' is worthless if emotional fainting DOES occur in animals... Does anyone know? PS wouldn't it be ironic if one of the few things that make us human would be fainting? Gert van Dijk Professor of clinical neurophysiology Leiden University Medical Centre Leiden, The Netherlands From: IN%"J.G.van_Dijk.neur@lumc.nl" "Dijk, J.G. van (NEUR)" 27-AUG-2002 00:54:36.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: emotional fainting in animals Dear all, Thanks for the answers I received so far. It is very informative for a physician like me, who works with only one species. Many disorders may resemble fainting but aren't. Narcolepsy was mentioned. Attacks of cataplexy may resemble fainting, as these attacks are emotionally triggered (quite often laughter) and the subject may slump to the floor. However, there is no loss of consciousness, although this can only be established later, when it turns out the patient has a full recollection of the attack (we study human narcolepsy in Leiden and work together with Stanford, where canine narcolepsy is studied). Likewise, fainting goats indeed do not faint at all; it's just a misnomer. Partial attacks of epilepsy are also quite different, and are very rarely triggered by emotions. Complex seizures as described may indeed be triggered by reading, mathematics or music, and this is the first time I've heard of something like that in an animal. Finally, I had not idea that horses could be so capricious. But still no true emotional fainiting in animals... Gert van Dijk Professor of clinical neurophysiology Leiden University Medical Centre Leiden, The Netherlands From: IN%"Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de" "Andreas Briese" 27-AUG-2002 02:45:35.34 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dog and dangerous dog regulations To all, last two years we had have many discussion on dog regulations especcially on banning several dog races (AmStaff, Bullterrier, Dogue bordeaux, Mastino. dogo argentino, Pitbul (I know they are'nt a registered race) and= some others). They are called to be fighting dogs and to be dangerous to people. We actually have some ban on breeding and husbandry - 16 differrent regulations in 16 federal states. To keep it short: irrational = and hard to accept. Nowadays the waves begin to smoothen and it's time to think about an bette= r policy in future. To begin with we would like to get some overview on how other countries de= al with this issue. And we're about to start a review and investigation on do= g and dangerous dog regulations in the US, France, Italy and Spain. But any information on the actual dog regulations would be helpful. May I ask you to give me some hints? USA 1. Do you know any summarizing articles about dog regulations in the US? 2. My impression is, that no nationwide US regulation or law exists on dog= husbandry and especcially on dangerous dog handling. Is this right? Are al= l legislations lokal or can some state-regulations be find (California, New = York ....)? 3. Do you know any URL or register where dog regulations are linked or listed to begin with? FRANCE, ITALY, SPAIN Can anybody give us a hint, where to find the legislation in force on dog breeding and dog keeping. Is any information availlable on the Internet? Thank you very much. Andreas +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese Tier=E4rztliche Hochschule Hannover Institut f=FCr Tierhygiene, Tierschutz und Nutztierethologie B=FCnteweg 17 p | School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover D- 30559 Hannover | Institute of Animal Hygiene, Animal Welfare and Beha= viour of Farm Animals Tel.: (+49) 511 953-8837 Fax.: (+49) 511 953-8588 E-Mail: andreas_briese@animcare-sci.de (PLEASE use this one if sending attachments= !) andreas.briese@tiho-hannover.de andreas.briese@ml.niedersachsen.de +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: IN%"cnevison@myerscough.ac.uk" "Nevison, Charlotte" 27-AUG-2002 03:01:52.09 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Change of address Dear all, I have moved from the University of Liverpool to take up a lecturing and research position at Myerscough College, University of Central Lancashire. My new contact details are listed below. Best wishes to you all. Charlie. **************************************************** Dr Charlotte M. Nevison Lecturer in Animal Welfare Studies Department of Animal Studies Myerscough College Bilsborrow Lancashire PR3 ORY email: cnevison@myerscough.ac.uk Tel: 01995 642222 Fax: 01995 642333 Myerscough College is part of the University of Central Lancashire ***************************************************** Standard Disclaimer:This message is confidential. You should not copy it or disclose its contents excepting cases where you may have to pass it within your organisation to someone better equipped to deal with the content. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Myerscough College does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions presented are only those of the author and not those of Myerscough College. If this email has come to you in error please delete it and any attachments. Please note that Myerscough College may intercept incoming and outgoing e-mail communications. From: IN%"BBEAVER@cvm.tamu.edu" "Bonnie Beaver" 27-AUG-2002 07:18:22.25 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dog and dangerous dog regulations Andreas and others, Each state, county, and/or city has its own laws regarding dog bites so there is quite a variety of laws to choose from in the United States. You are certainly correct that specific breed regulations are not the answer. For a more global approach, I would refer you to the article "A community approach to dog bite prevention" which was published in the June 1, 2001 edition of the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association (Vol. 218, No. 11). Included within the article as appendices is a model dog and cat control ordinance and model legislation for the identification and regulation of "dangerous" dogs. This document was put to gether by a task force that included experts from the fields of human medicine, including pediatrics and emergency medicine, the insurance industry, animal control, CDC, law, veterinary medicine, and animal behavior. This report has been well received in a number of countries besides the US, and it has been presented at international, as well as national, meetings. Bonnie Bonnie V. Beaver, BS, DVM, MS, DACVB Department of Small Animal Medicine and Surgery Texas A&M University 4474 TAMU College Station, TX 77843-4474 phone: 979-845-2351 fax: 979-845-6978 e-mail: bbeaver@cvm.tamu.edu >>> Andreas Briese 08/27/02 04:45AM >>> To all, last two years we had have many discussion on dog regulations especcially on banning several dog races (AmStaff, Bullterrier, Dogue bordeaux, Mastino. dogo argentino, Pitbul (I know they are'nt a registered race) and some others). They are called to be fighting dogs and to be dangerous to people. We actually have some ban on breeding and husbandry - 16 differrent regulations in 16 federal states. To keep it short: irrational and hard to accept. Nowadays the waves begin to smoothen and it's time to think about an better policy in future. To begin with we would like to get some overview on how other countries deal with this issue. And we're about to start a review and investigation on dog and dangerous dog regulations in the US, France, Italy and Spain. But any information on the actual dog regulations would be helpful. May I ask you to give me some hints? USA 1. Do you know any summarizing articles about dog regulations in the US? 2. My impression is, that no nationwide US regulation or law exists on dog husbandry and especcially on dangerous dog handling. Is this right? Are all legislations lokal or can some state-regulations be find (California, New York ....)? 3. Do you know any URL or register where dog regulations are linked or listed to begin with? FRANCE, ITALY, SPAIN Can anybody give us a hint, where to find the legislation in force on dog breeding and dog keeping. Is any information availlable on the Internet? Thank you very much. Andreas +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese Tierärztliche Hochschule Hannover Institut für Tierhygiene, Tierschutz und Nutztierethologie Bünteweg 17 p | School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover D- 30559 Hannover | Institute of Animal Hygiene, Animal Welfare and Behaviour of Farm Animals Tel.: (+49) 511 953-8837 Fax.: (+49) 511 953-8588 E-Mail: andreas_briese@animcare-sci.de (PLEASE use this one if sending attachments!) andreas.briese@tiho-hannover.de andreas.briese@ml.niedersachsen.de +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 27-AUG-2002 08:31:39.83 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: horses that lie down We heard of 2 interesting methods to deal with horses that lie down. One was a trainer who smoked cigars and strategically dropped the lit cigar where the horse would lie on it. The other had the trainer sitting on the horse's neck so it couldn't stand up. It wasn't nearly so much fun to lie down when someone took away the option of getting back up. Each method was supposed to work rather quickly. Julie Alexander From: IN%"claire.diederich@fundp.ac.be" "Claire Diederich" 27-AUG-2002 08:36:41.76 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dog and dangerous dog regulations Dear Andreas, Here is the Belgian position about dangerous dogs. In order to obtain more details or information, please contact Dr Vet Rudy De Meester, Department of the Minister of Public Health : RudyDeMeester@pandora.be In 2000, Belgium adopted a global and reasoned approach of the problem of canine aggression (after a one-day symposium, 6 working groups were set up to analyse the situation and to make proposals after one year working, regarding breeding, canine education, treatment of behavioural problems, public safety, public health and shelters). I was president of the 2 first of them. Thus you can see that the problem of canine aggression has not been solved in banning several dog races but the Minister wanted that the solution came from experts and actors of the dog sector themselves. Result was a list of practical propositions that are now discussed at a governmental level. Hope this help. Sincerely yours, Claire Diederich From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 27-AUG-2002 09:29:04.73 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sleeper hold One article written by someone who claimed to be a Dim Mak--death touch--expert, mentioned the dangers of messing with what he called the carotid sinus. One man frequently demonstrated on volunteers how a light tap on the carotid sinus would cause someone to collapse. He was supposed to have 100% effectiveness. There could be an element of belief on the part of the volunteers. But years later, at least one person died of a ruptured artery. The author believed the method weakened the artery wall and said the only time it should be practiced was on animals due for slaughter. The sleeper hold is often taught to Law enforcement personnel but is not always effective. Usually improper technique is claimed. Interesting that is probable that it just won't work on everyone. Some years ago, we heard about police brutality and that officers were under utilizing the sleeper hold. It is not an easy technique to apply on someone who is fighting back. Add in that it can cause damage and I can imagine lawsuits claiming the officers seriously injured someone. A double bind, criticized for not using it but potential legal problems if they do. It is usually done from the rear with the forearm on the side of the neck. By applying a fast squeeze inward at the right angle it is supposed to cut off the carotid artery. We have not seen this technique done to collapse. Our instructor applied it to both of us with just enough pressure for us to get the idea. He has enough control to give a light pulse that was very disorienting. It did not feel like the light headedness of suddenly standing. It was very disagreeable and felt like it would have dropped us quickly if applied full force. In practice on each other we have found how different it feels with the right spot and a fast pulse and a slow pressure or off the mark. It is still disorienting but it takes much longer. Once we had the feel of the position and how to direct the pressure, we only practice this with a very light touch. We will be extra careful in the future. I doubt that karate experts have better techniques in applying strikes or holds but in hard practice or in a real fight, they can apply much more force syncope experts probably would want to. Julie Alexander From: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz" "Andy Beck" 27-AUG-2002 16:34:21.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: horses that lie down > a trainer who smoked cigars and strategically dropped the lit cigar where > the horse would lie on it. The other had the trainer sitting on the > horse's > neck so it couldn't stand up. It wasn't nearly so much fun to lie down > when > someone took away the option of getting back up. Each method was supposed > to > work rather quickly. The ethics of causing burns to horses seems very dubious indeed, as does the logic. It would surely be better to investigate the causes of work intolerance and such a drastic lack of motivation rather than treating a symptom. In horses, as with most animals, extinguishing one symptom but leaving the cause intact merely provokes the birth of another - perhaps more dangerous symptom. One case of 'lying down' that came to my attention was the result of pretty excessive rider weight - nothing that would be 'cured' by burns or such. Another very typical cause of intolerance is 'hard hands' causing horses to go 'head high', with poor nuchal ligament support for the back - and so back ache after exercise. Very often it is not the horse that needs the remedial training but the rider - cigar anyone? Regards to all Andy Beck W.H.E.E.P. Aotearoa http://www.equine-behavior.com From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 27-AUG-2002 18:27:25.71 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fw: horses that lie down The ethics of such a method would depend on a number of things. What else had been tried before, how rank was the horse, was it aggressive, was it a situation that needed to be dealt with very quickly such as a horse that got loose on range land and needed to be led or ridden out immediately and no one around to help. No, such a method is not going to fix the underlying problem and other more serious behaviors may pop out like rearing, biting or striking. But I can imagine a horse had been reschooled and that this was a leftover habit it tried out once in a while to see if it worked with a new rider. We saw a trainer we considered very humane work with a very rank gelding. The horse was quiet the first few days he came into her stable but soon started being very aggressive. Attempting to double barrel kick when anyone came into the stall, bite, rear and strike, bite at the riders feet in the stirrup, serious bucking, rearing and trying to scrape off the rider. The trainer had not seen any sign of drugging. She thought he may have been bled, the new owner was not experienced and did not have a vet check or take along someone more savvy. Pasture care did not alter his behavior. He was damn dangerous. He had made some good progress but was unpredictable in his bouts of aggression and fits of temper under saddle. She put my husband on him as he was tall and heavy enough with fast reflexes so that when he tried to rear, Mark could throw his weight forward, turn his head and short circuit the rear or buck. After at least 2 months training, 5 days a week he reared and struck out at the trainer as she went to feed him. At that point she chose to throw him and hold his head down. Using a running w and driving him so he went to his knees, done slowly with care in an arena with deep sand, she then pushed him over and quietly sat on his neck. No strong emotions, no whipping, yelling, anger, just took away his choices and his control. He was talked to and stroked while held down. After 10 minutes or so when he was released he was a changed horse. No, his spirit was not broken, he simply found out he wasn't the toughest dude in town. His attempts to bite and kicked stopped dead cold. He tried to buck or rear once or twice more and stopped. His owner finally was able to ride him and was given a trophy by the barn staff when she took him to a show and came in fifth in western pleasure with him. The owner had not wanted to give up on the horse. After managing to show him, she decided it was time to find a horse she liked better. He was resold to a man who was told of his background, and given 30 days to bring him back. He called the trainer later and said the horse was fine with him. A horse this rank who persisted in such a dangerous habit could easily be on its way to the canner. If no other way was found to break the habit, I would consider letting it learn that lying down hurts and that it can stay comfortable by staying upright more humane than turning it into dog food. I don't see that this is a great deal different than electric fencing. My reflexes are fast enough to jerk away when a friend dropped a lit cigarette on my hand without being burned. I doubt the horse has slower reflexes than I do. If it was stupid enough to try it more than twice, it probably should be dog food. I do not ever think that a punisher or aversive should be stronger than necessary. +R, -R, -P are all preferable when they work as they so often do. But I do think that powerful +P that may save a life is preferred to killing an animal or endangering human or animal life. Julie Alexander ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Beck" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 3:33 PM Subject: RE: horses that lie down > > > a trainer who smoked cigars and strategically dropped the lit cigar > where > > the horse would lie on it. The other had the trainer sitting on the > > horse's > > neck so it couldn't stand up. It wasn't nearly so much fun to lie down > > when > > someone took away the option of getting back up. Each method was > supposed > > to > > work rather quickly. > > The ethics of causing burns to horses seems very dubious indeed, as does > the logic. It would surely be better to investigate the causes of work > intolerance and such a drastic lack of motivation rather than treating a > symptom. In horses, as with most animals, extinguishing one symptom but > leaving the cause intact merely provokes the birth of another - perhaps > more dangerous symptom. > > One case of 'lying down' that came to my attention was the result of > pretty excessive rider weight - nothing that would be 'cured' by burns > or such. Another very typical cause of intolerance is 'hard hands' > causing horses to go 'head high', with poor nuchal ligament support for > the back - and so back ache after exercise. > > Very often it is not the horse that needs the remedial training but the > rider - cigar anyone? > > Regards to all > Andy Beck > W.H.E.E.P. > Aotearoa > http://www.equine-behavior.com > > From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 28-AUG-2002 07:26:57.53 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dog and dangerous dog regulations Andreas Briese, Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 2:45 AM > >...... We actually have some ban on breeding and husbandry - 16 > differrent regulations in 16 federal states. To keep it short: irrational and hard > to accept. > > Nowadays the waves begin to smoothen and it's time to think about an better > policy in future. margory cohen replied: Andreas, hello -- Here's another thought: www.akc.org --American Kennel Club. Even the AKC, it took 10 years, but even the AKC has come out with a statement against breed specific legislation. It doesn't work. It isn't the breeds. Some hotbeds as it were for this in the US are in Maryland presently and Ohio. Those states would not be models;-). I think what Andy Beck applies: "Very often it is not the horse that needs the remedial training but the rider ..." -margory cohen Scottish Deerhounds San Francisco. CA. US. From: IN%"JLGhmn8532@aol.com" 29-AUG-2002 06:26:12.94 To: IN%"margory@dnai.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dog and dangerous dog regulations When someone asks me if pitbulls, for example, are bad dogs, I reply with, "It isn't necessarily the dog that is bad but its environment". My experience with training bomb dogs and local neighborhood dogs convince me of this. From: IN%"canine.education@bigpond.com.au" "Canine Education and Behaviour Research" 29-AUG-2002 07:00:53.02 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dangerous dogs I have followed this thread with a great deal of interest, whilst the points raised are very valid the fact still remains that until such time as the pedigree dog world places equal emphasis on temperament/personality/character as they do on morphology there will be a bias toward producing dogs which conform to a physical standard regardless of how sound their mind is. If the governing bodies were serious about improving the public perception of dogs in general and pedigree dogs particularly they would implement mandatory testing prior to any dog being accepted into the breeding/competing registry. This would eliminate a great deal of dogs which have genetic traits which cause so much concern with the general public and show a commitment on behalf of the breeders to be making a serious effort to the undertaking of eliminating dangerous behavioural traits from their breeds. BUT such a move would be highly unpopular with many (read very vocal) members of such bodies and as a result is highly unlikely to actually eventuate. In my opinion the Swedish DMA test comes the closest to any current testing program to facilitate a benchmark of acceptable temperament/personality/character which still allows for required/desired breed characteristics and could be applied to virtually any breed of dog currently recognised. As this test is widely available the question which is begging to be asked is why it has not been implemented along with a puppy register where to achieve acceptance into the general registry (allowing a dog to be bred with and also to compete) a successful pass under such a test needs to be achieved. Until such time as the dog world accepts responsibility for its own direction dog owners will remain at the mercy of knee jerk reactions from those empowered to make laws Iain Macdonald "Canine Education and Behavioural Research" "Renroc" Sth Gippsland Hwy Lang Lang Victoria Australia 3984 61 (0) 3 59975575 canine.education@bigpond.com.au rrenroc@bigpond.com.au From: IN%"msuthers@vt.edu" "H. Marie Suthers-McCabe, D.V.M." 30-AUG-2002 11:21:17.26 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: introducing pets to kids Hello, I have been asked to put together a talk for the lay public on introducing pets to new babies. Any ideas/ references out there? Thank you, Dr. Marie Suthers-McCabe * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * H. Marie Suthers-McCabe, D.V.M. Associate Professor Extension Specialist Human-Companion Animal Interaction Director, Center for Animal Human Relationships Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine Duck Pond Drive Mail Code 0442 Blacksburg, Virginia 24061 (540) 231-7133 Fax (540) 231-1698 E-mail msuthers@vt.edu From: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com" 30-AUG-2002 11:39:03.16 To: IN%"msuthers@vt.edu", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: introducing pets to kids In a message dated 8/30/02 1:25:03 PM, msuthers@vt.edu writes: << Hello, I have been asked to put together a talk for the lay public on introducing pets to new babies. Any ideas/ references out there? Thank you, Dr. Marie Suthers-McCabe >> There is a nice little book that does a good job of this available called: Your Dog and Your baby, A Practical Guide By Silivia Hartmann-Kent. Published by Howlyn Moon Press ISBN # 1-888994-13-4 Best Regards George Phillip Quinlan All About Dogs Behavior Center Cat Mousam Rd Kennebunk Me 04043 207.985.6700 From: IN%"noofies@tir.com" 30-AUG-2002 15:12:48.29 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: introducing pets to kids Great little book: Childproofing Your Dog: A Complete Guide to Preparing Your Dog for the Children in Your Life by Brian Kilcommons, Sarah Wilson Also, There's A Baby in the House: Preparing your Dog for the Arrival of your Child by Michael Wombacher Nancy and all the critters at Miss Noofies' Charm School and Home for Wayward Doggies On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:33:24 -0700 "H. Marie Suthers-McCabe, D.V.M." wrote: > Hello, I have been asked to put together a talk > for the lay public on > introducing pets to new babies. Any ideas/ > references out there? > Thank you, > Dr. Marie Suthers-McCabe > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > H. Marie Suthers-McCabe, D.V.M. > Associate Professor > Extension Specialist Human-Companion Animal > Interaction > Director, Center for Animal Human Relationships > Virginia-Maryland Regional College of > Veterinary Medicine > Duck Pond Drive > Mail Code 0442 > Blacksburg, Virginia 24061 > (540) 231-7133 > Fax (540) 231-1698 > E-mail msuthers@vt.edu > > From: IN%"rudy.demeester@pi.be" "rudy de meester" 31-AUG-2002 01:39:21.13 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: cats and homing instincts Hello everybody. I am urgently searching for information on the "homing instinct" of cats. Could anybody give some more profound information or tell me where to look for it? Are there scientifically validated tests done or is it just a collection of stories and theories? Have a nice weekend, Rudy De Meester From: IN%"jcrenner@psych.purdue.edu" "Jennifer C. Renner" 31-AUG-2002 16:12:21.46 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: aggressive dogs Hello everyone. I've been a passive member of the listserve for about a year now and have noted some interesting postings regarding dogs and behavioral problems. I have a question of my own regarding aggression and am wondering if anyone might be able to help. I am a PhD student of animal learning and behavior and study numerical competence in pigeons. Despite this training, I have a rather embarassing problem with one of my own pets. He's a 2 1/2 year old German Spitz (also known as American Eskimo in the US) that I acquired as a part of an adoption just over a year ago. He's a wonderful dog, however, he's terribly aggressive toward strangers and individuals that he's met for the first time. I've been told that they're known to be an aggressive breed, however, it seems that his behavior is out of control. He's attempted to bite me, for example, when someone (e.g., delivery person, friend, etc.) calls by my home, often not letting me past him to get through the door. I've tried positive reinforcement, a shock coller and even just leaving the room, ignoring his behavior, however, nothing seems to have worked. Is anyone aware of any literature or training techniques that I might attempt to apply in order to curb his aggression? Is there a chance he might "grow out of it," or should I be concerned about the problem becoming worse? Jennifer C. Renner, M.A. Department of Psychological Sciences Purdue University West Lafayette, IN 47907