From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 16-AUG-2005 09:35:57.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "List Applied Ethology" CC: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" Subj: RE: Anecdote about mirror encounter Hi all, Let's face it, "consciousness" is fascinating, but studying it, in =20 animals or humans, is a challenge. The Gallup studies were innovative =20= (the rouge test with apes), but did not convince everybody. Griffin's =20= ethological perspective (mainly a cognitive one) was an interesting =20 approach, yet, demonstrating cognitive abilities does not mean that =20 consciousness is demonstrated (unless we all believe that bees are =20 conscious, self-aware, etc.). Although I am told by Griffin's =20 students (e.g., Ristau) that he was aware of that important =20 distinction, the long expos=E9s on animal cognitive abilities is =20 obscuring the issue, cognition is not consciousness (unless we get =20 into metacognitive processes, etc.). Not that I don't like a challenge, but I am one of those animal =20 behaviour researchers that won't touch this issue with a 10 feet =20 pole. I find the neurological/neuropsychological (with humans) =20 perspective fascinating though (e.g., Ramachandran, Phantoms in the =20 Brain) and I think that studying humans that have lost some aspect of =20= "self-awareness", consciousness, social interest (from brain damage =20 patients to autism) may lead the way to understand consciousness. Regards, S. Gadbois On 15-Aug-05, at 7:01 PM, Michalchik@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/15/2005 1:00:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, =20 > clare@amerion.com writes: > Dolphins see themselves reflected in the surface of water as a =20 > matter of course. A mirror at the surface might not draw much =20 > attention at all > Actually dolphins would never see themselves reflected on the =20 > surface of the water since water creates no reflections in its =20 > transition to air until a critical angle is reached. Since this is =20 > a relatively steep angle, no part of the observing dolphins body =20 > would be reflected in the image. Go into a pool and look straight =20 > up. All you will see is sky. That sky will be a circular window =20 > about 60 degrees in diameter. Outside that window other object far =20 > away from you will be reflected. > > Anyway, dolphins primary sense is not vision it is sonar. Sonar =20 > reflections can be generated on any smooth flat hard surface. =20 > Distorted reflection probably occur relative frequently in nature. =20 > Good quality ones probably only occur on manmade objects. From: IN%"LyndhurstPark@aol.com" 16-AUG-2005 10:23:49.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Anecdote about mirror encounter Hi, Since were discussing the ethology minefield of "consciousness" in animals - I am assuming it's mainly in respect to cognitive ability? Has anyone out there got any theories on canines having levels of consciousness/cognitive ability, and examples on how it can be measured? Regards Gordon Butcher _lyndhurstpark@aol.com_ (mailto:lyndhurstpark@aol.com) From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 16-AUG-2005 10:51:29.44 To: IN%"LyndhurstPark@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Anecdote about mirror encounter Hi, There is a rich literature in animal cognition, including very good =20 work in canines by Frank, the "Canadian group" (Dor=E9, Fiset) and the =20= "Hungarian group" (Gasci, Miklosi, etc) that I am actually going to =20 meet for the first next week in Budapest (International Ethology =20 Conference). Consciousness in canines: rarely addressed directly, as far as I know. For the cognitive aspect, textbooks by Roitblat (An Introduction to =20 comparative cognition; 1987) and Roberts (Principles of Animal =20 Cognition; 1998) are the classics in the area. Roberts does have a =20 section of the last chapter (on primates) on theory of mind, but =20 Roitblat stays clear of that topic. Roberts is careful not to confuse and confound cognition with =20 consciousness (in fact, psychology trained animal behaviour =20 researchers never make that mistake). S. Gadbois On 16-Aug-05, at 1:23 PM, LyndhurstPark@aol.com wrote: > Hi, > > Since were discussing the ethology minefield of "consciousness" in =20 > animals - I am assuming it's mainly in respect to cognitive =20 > ability? Has anyone out there got any theories on canines having =20 > levels of consciousness/cognitive ability, and examples on how it =20 > can be measured? > > Regards > > Gordon Butcher > lyndhurstpark@aol.com From: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" 17-AUG-2005 03:41:35.14 To: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Anecdote about mirror encounter Dear All, I would agree with Simon's apparent support not to confound consciousness=20 with cognitive capacity. Some humans might lack cognitive capacity through = injury or other causes, but they might still be conscious. Of course,=20 argument by analogy indicates we should afford the same argument to=20 non-human animals. Chris --On 16 August 2005 13:51 -0300 Simon Gadbois wrote: > Hi, > There is a rich literature in animal cognition, including very good work > in canines by Frank, the "Canadian group" (Dor=E9, Fiset) and the > "Hungarian group" (Gasci, Miklosi, etc) that I am actually going to meet > for the first next week in Budapest (International Ethology Conference). > Consciousness in canines: rarely addressed directly, as far as I know. > For the cognitive aspect, textbooks by Roitblat (An Introduction to > comparative cognition; 1987) and Roberts (Principles of Animal Cognition; > 1998) are the classics in the area. Roberts does have a section of the > last chapter (on primates) on theory of mind, but Roitblat stays clear of > that topic. > Roberts is careful not to confuse and confound cognition with > consciousness (in fact, psychology trained animal behaviour researchers > never make that mistake). > > > S. Gadbois > > > > > > On 16-Aug-05, at 1:23 PM, LyndhurstPark@aol.com wrote: > > > Hi, > =A0 > Since were discussing the=A0ethology minefield of "consciousness" in > animals - I am assuming it's mainly in respect to cognitive ability? Has > anyone out there got any=A0theories on canines having levels of > consciousness/cognitive ability, and examples on how it can be measured? > =A0 > Regards > =A0 > Gordon Butcher > lyndhurstpark@aol.com > > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 From: IN%"jorighetti@optusnet.com.au" "Joanne Righetti" 17-AUG-2005 15:43:45.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: pets and personality Hi, I have been asked by a magazine writer for facts/references to do with people's personality and their choice of pet. I was able to give her a few dog and cat references but she wants some bird, small mammal, fish, reptile ones - basically what sort of people choose these pets. You can either reply to me or to her direct - MKnopman@hearst.com. Joanne Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviourist Tel (02) 9416 9800 0414 561 699 www.petproblemsolved.com.au