From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 17-AUG-1998 07:02:05.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ref's for torfi HI all! Please bear with me - I have a message for someone and I mislaid their personal E-mail: Torfi: Here are the ref's - if this is not sufficient, please let me know. Deb 1) "How to manage the management factor: assessing animal welfare at the farm level"; Sandoe, Munksgaard, Badsgard and Jensen. 2) "Farming systems research as a tool to support livestock policy analysis: a case study conducted in Guinea-Bissau"; Goncalves 3) "The idea of ethical accounting for a livestock farm"; Jensen and Sorensen 4) "On-farm experiments as a research method in animal welfare and health"; Sorensen and Hindhede 5) "Discrimination of people by dairy cows based on handling"; Munksgaard, De Passille, Rushen, Thodberg, Jensen 6) "Production environment as a component in a welfare assessment system in dairy cattle herds"; Johannesson, Sorensen and Munksgaard 7) "Pilot farms: an initiative to utilise new livestock farming systems in an upland region of NW Italy (Piedmont Alta Langa)"; Bianchi, Battaglini, Fortina, Galfione Ciao - Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"simon@simons0.demon.co.uk" "Simon Sharp," 17-AUG-1998 13:30:20.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Vacancy @ Hearing Dogs for Deaf People (UK) [ Section: 1/1 File: jobadd~1.doc UUencoded by: Turnpike Version 3.04 ] begin 644 jobadd~1.doc MT,\1X*&Q&N$`````````````````````/@`#`/[_"0`&```````````````! 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M`````P```&X````#````=`(```,``````````````/[_```$``(````````` M``````````````$````"U`````@```"```P`````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` =```````````````````````````````````````` ` end sum -r/size 57449/68457 section (from "begin" to "end") sum -r/size 35442/49664 entire input file From: IN%"Edelsome@aol.com" 18-AUG-1998 11:59:17.20 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Assistance Thank you for your prompt response to my subscription request. I am interested in entering the field of ethology and am seeking information from those currently in the field. This is a dramatic career change for me and I am seeking information on the best way to begin and become involved. Of course, formal education will be a course of action, but I would also like to hear of volunteer opportunities and involvements. Thank you in advance for your assistance. From: IN%"Claire.Diederich@fundp.ac.be" "Claire Diederich" 19-AUG-1998 01:18:39.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Gaits of dogs: Thanks I wish to thank all the people who helped my search on dog's gaits (by the way, is it gait or step or trace? English is not my first language). Here below follows the summary of the responses I received: BOOKS: - The Dog in Action McDowell Lyon - Howell Book House Inc., NY. ISBN n=B0 0876054688 - The Dynamics of Canine Gait: a study of motion Hollenbeck Leon, Akron, NY: Hollenbeck, 1971. - How Mammals Run Gambaryan P.P., John Wiley and Son, NY, 1974. - Animals in Motion Eadweard Muybridge, published about 100 years ago. - The New Dogsteps Rachel Page Elliot, Howell Book House Inc., NY, ISBN n=B0 0876055218. =46irst Ed. ISBN n=B0 0876055196. - Jumping from A to Z Chris Zink and J. Daniels, 1996. Item # DTA 125. - Dog Locomotion and Gait Analysis. Curtis M. Brown, 1986, Hoflin Publishing Ltd (or is it Wheat Ridge ?), Colorado. - Peak performance C. Zink, 1997. Item # DTB 276. - K-9 (or Canine ?) structure and terminology Gilbert E.M., NY: Howell Book House, 1995. VIDEOS from the American Kennel Club: - Elliot, R.P.: Dogsteps: a study of canine structure and movement. Raleigh, NC AKC, 1988 - Gait ... observing dogs in motion. NY AKC, 1986 (?). $35 n=B01352 Claire DIEDERICH Dept Vet Med University of Namur, Belgium From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 19-AUG-1998 08:23:05.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: The Waltham/Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors - Autumn Symposium This information is also available at: http://www.apbc.org.uk/SYMP98.HTM The Waltham/Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors =20 Autumn Symposium =20 =20 A Closer Look at Ethology (Including half day workshops on cats, rabbits & horses) Saturday 31st October 1998 Royal Agricultural College, Cirencester =20 The 1998 Autumn Symposium takes on a new format. In order that delegates can gain more in-depth knowledge of behaviour we are pleased to present this day of seminars and workshops for those interested in cat, horse and rabbit behaviour. The day will start for all delegates with three formal presentations that will study behaviour from the perspective of these three very different species. The first speaker Dr John Bradshaw from the Anthrozoology Institute, Southampton University, will look at the evolutionary constraints on species specific behaviour in the cat, looking at how the distinct behaviour of this fascinating species has evolved and why. After coffee, Cecelia Lindberg, from Bristol University, will continue with a look at the evolution of equine behaviour and to conclude the morning session APBC member Emma Magnus will discuss the implications and benefits of working with natural behaviours, and will be using the rabbit as her example. After a buffet lunch the delegates will divide into three workshop groups for the afternoon sessions. Workshop 1: Understanding and reducing stress in cats - a practical approach Presented by Sarah Heath BVSc MRCVS and Sandra McCune VN BA(Mod) PhD This workshop will deal with the basic question of what is stress and what causes it? By successfully reading feline body language and accurately using a recognised stress score delegates will learn how to recognise stress in cats. The latter part of the afternoon will concentrate on the practical approach to reducing feline stress and teach delegates some useful tips for advising clients on how to enrich their pet's environment. Workshop 2: The Natural Horse Presented by Nell Davidson B.Sc (Hons) and Natalie Warren B.Sc PhD This workshop will look at modifying the stable to fit the natural behaviour of the horse. How to recognise the major behavioural requirements in the horse, how to open up the lines of communication, and learn the foreign language. It will also include a critique of current behavioural modifiers and environmental enrichment methods. Workshop 3: "Benjamin Bunny or Roger Rabbit? Rabbit behaviour problems - prevention and modification." Presented by Anne McBride B.Sc., Ph.D., Cert. Cons., F.R.S.A. and Christine Huggett B.Sc.(Hons) Ph.D. The workshop will consider the natural behaviour of the rabbit and how this is related to their environment and physiology. The effect of domestication on rabbit behaviour will be investigated, and typical body languages (ethograms) presented. Case histories will be given, along with discussion of preventative measures and behaviour modification programmes. =20 Programme 09.30 - 10.00 Registration=20 10.00 - 10.05 Welcome=20 David Appleby Dip CABC=20 10.05 - 10.50 Evolutionary constraints on species specific behaviour in the cat John Bradshaw PhD 10.50 - 11.20 Coffee 11.20 - 12.05 Problem Horses? Problem Owners? Understanding equine behavioural strategies Cecelia Lindberg BA, MA, PhD=20 12.05 - 12.50 Behaviour modification - working with natural behaviours Emma Magnus BSc(Hons) MSc 12.50 - 14.00 Buffet lunch 14.00 - 15.15 Workshops 1: Understanding and reducing stress in cats - a practical approach Sarah Heath BVSc MRCVS and Sandra McCune VN BA(Mod) PhD 2: The Natural Horse Nell Davidson BSc (Hons) and Natalie Warren PhD 3: "Benjamin Bunny or Roger Rabbit? Rabbit behaviour problems - prevention and modification." Anne McBride B.Sc., Ph.D., Cert. Cons., F.R.S.A. and Christine Huggett B.Sc.(Hons) Ph.D. 15.15 - 15.45 Coffee 15.45 - 16.30 Workshops as above 16.30 Depart =20 The Venue The seminar & workshops are being held at the Royal Agricultural college, Cirencester. A map will be sent with your booking confirmation. The Royal Agricultural College is easily accessible by road and rail. Arriving by car, Cirencester lies between the A40 (45 mins to Oxford), the M5 (90 mins to Birmingham) and the M4 (90 mins to London). The college is signposted from the outskirts of Cirencester. National Express operate a coach service every 2 hours between Cirencester and Victoria Coach Station. By train Kemble is the local station, on the mainline between Swindon (for London connections) and Cheltenham (for Birmingham and Bristol).=20 Our thanks to - Once again, the APBC would like to thank the event sponsors, the Waltham Centre for Pet Nutrition. For over 30 years Waltham, the worlds leading authority on pet care and nutrition, has been studying the nutritional science of their pet foods and behavioural aspects of feeding and also the relationship that people enjoy with their pets. Such wide ranging studies provide the science behind so many well known pet food brands such as Whiskas and Pedigree Chum. =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Symposium - Booking Form Also available at: http://www.apbc.org.uk/booking.htm The Waltham/Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors =20 Autumn Symposium 1998 =20 =20 Please print and send by snail mail=20 One form (or photocopy) per delegate Name: Address: =20 =20 Postcode: Tel. No:=20 Occupation:=20 Special dietary needs: Workshop choice In order that delegates can get the most from the workshops, they will be limited 50 at each, and will be strictly on a first come first served basis, so please book early to ensure your place. All of the workshops will run concurrently so you will not be able to attend more than one. Please indicate your preference below: Please mark box 1 =3D 1st choice, 2 =3D 2nd choice, 3 =3D 3rd choice I would like to attend: Workshop 1 Cats =20 =20 Workshop 2 Horses =20 =20 Workshop 3 Rabbits =20 =20 Please enclose a cheque/PO for =A335.00 payable to APBC Symposium.=20 Booking form/payment should be sent to: APBC Symposium,=20 PO Box 46 Worcester=20 WR8 9YS =20 =20 Speak to you soon. David=20 ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"dagai@netvision.net.il" "Yuval Dagai" 19-AUG-1998 16:56:07.90 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: The Spectator Effect Hello to all, My name is Yuval I'm an M.Sc. student and my research is on the aggression between fledglings of the Arabian Babbler (A social bird that lives in the hot deserts of Israel). I am looking for information on the effect of spectator/s present during an aggressive event on the behavior of the participants. I would be most thankful for any of you who can help! Thanks, Yuval dagai@netvision.net.il From: IN%"c.moons@planetinternet.be" "c.moons" 19-AUG-1998 22:32:47.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethologie Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: przewalski horses Dit is een meerdelig bericht in MIME-indeling. --Boundary_(ID_kSFBH9r1fqkb5MKtU1JK0A) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone, It is my turn to thank all who helped me get information about = Przewalski horses. Serious progress has been made since then ! You will not see an "unsubscribe" message from me anytime soon... Sincerely, Christel Moons --Boundary_(ID_kSFBH9r1fqkb5MKtU1JK0A) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hello everyone,
 
It is my turn to thank all who = helped me get=20 information about Przewalski horses. Serious progress has been made = since then=20 !
You will not see an = "unsubscribe"=20 message from me anytime soon...
 
Sincerely,
Christel = Moons
--Boundary_(ID_kSFBH9r1fqkb5MKtU1JK0A)-- From: IN%"agnethe-iren.sandem@nlh10.nlh.no" "Agnethe-Iren Sandem" 20-AUG-1998 06:01:37.43 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: New member Hello! My name is Agnethe-Ir=E9n Sandem and I have just started to work as a PhD-student in applied ethology at the Agricultural University of Norway, dep.of animal husbandry. The main subject of my work is welfare in cattle, and at the end of my study I hope to present a concrete list of usable indicators of welfare in cattle. I also have a great interest in cats, and I have just finished a master's thesis with the title "The social bond between man and cat" where dr. Braastad was my advisor. =20 Sincerely, Agnethe From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "Margaret (Peggy) Shunick" 20-AUG-1998 08:17:57.37 To: IN%"dagai@netvision.net.il" "Yuval Dagai", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The Spectator Effect This is perhaps a little off topic, but... There's an interesting social psych experiment (Zajonc et al, 1969) in which cockroaches ran in plexiglass mazes. When they had an audience of other cockroaches (and the maze was complex), they ran significantly faster! This study was used to demonstrate social facilitation in a class I took from Mark Schaller. My notes tell me one consequence of arousal is that [organisms are] more likely to do what comes naturally, AND that "arousal enhances the dominant response". Best wishes with your current project. Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick, BA, BA, MS (Animals and Public Policy) 1022 Grizzly Mountain Road Somewhere near Joe's SmokeRing, Evaro, MT 59808-9791 (406) 726-3342 e-mail: arl3342@montana.com ---------- > Hello to all, > > My name is Yuval I'm an M.Sc. student and my research is on the > aggression between fledglings of the Arabian Babbler (A social bird that > lives in the hot deserts of Israel). > I am looking for information on the effect of spectator/s present during > an aggressive event on the behavior of the participants. > I would be most thankful for any of you who can help! > Thanks, > Yuval > dagai@netvision.net.il > From: IN%"dagai@netvision.net.il" "Yuval Dagai" 20-AUG-1998 18:00:04.93 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The Spectator Effect Margaret Hi, Thanks for the reply. I know nothing about the social life of the cockroaches I guess it is unlike the Babblers or any other social species. Babblers have a very similar social life like primates, wolves or even humans. They live in small groups which most of them are families and the minority are coalitions they are territorial and have a linear hierarchy which the fledglings form when they are very young using aggression. I noticed that whenever there is another fledgling present as a spectator during an interaction by 2 other fledglings the level of aggression is higher than without a spectator. I'm looking for more information about this kind of observation in research work done with other social animals. Until now I found only work been done on humans in psychological research. If you have noticed any research on the subject please reply. Thanks again, Yuval Margaret (Peggy) Shunick wrote: > This is perhaps a little off topic, but... > > There's an interesting social psych experiment (Zajonc et al, 1969) in > which cockroaches ran in plexiglass mazes. When they had an audience of > other cockroaches (and the maze was complex), they ran significantly > faster! This study was used to demonstrate social facilitation in a class I > took from Mark Schaller. > > My notes tell me one consequence of arousal is that [organisms are] more > likely to do what comes naturally, AND that "arousal enhances the dominant > response". > > Best wishes with your current project. > Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick, BA, BA, MS (Animals and Public Policy) > 1022 Grizzly Mountain Road > Somewhere near Joe's SmokeRing, Evaro, MT 59808-9791 > (406) 726-3342 > e-mail: arl3342@montana.com > > ---------- > > Hello to all, > > > > My name is Yuval I'm an M.Sc. student and my research is on the > > aggression between fledglings of the Arabian Babbler (A social bird that > > lives in the hot deserts of Israel). > > I am looking for information on the effect of spectator/s present during > > an aggressive event on the behavior of the participants. > > I would be most thankful for any of you who can help! > > Thanks, > > Yuval > > dagai@netvision.net.il From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 20-AUG-1998 19:50:04.56 To: IN%"dagai@netvision.net.il" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: The Spectator Effect <> When multiple dogs live in a home, owners often report that once two dogs have begun to fight, that others will join in. This is not exactly the same as what you requested, but perhaps there maybe information in the canid literature. Dr. Debra Horwitz Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists St. Louis, MO From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 20-AUG-1998 20:42:36.52 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: The DSM and Evolutionary Psychology: Seminar Notes EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY AND THE CLASSIFICATION OF MENTAL DISORDERS Wednesday, July 22, 1998. = Dylan Evans, M.A., Ph. D. Candidate Center for the Philosophy of Natural and Social Sciences London School of Economics London, U. K., WC2A 2AE Notes by Jim Brody, 8/20/98. This was the 2nd in a series of 3 seminars= =2E = Notes for the 3rd, "Complexity Theory: Getting the Client to 'Maybe'" wil= l be circulated in about a week. Notes for all 3 seminars can also be foun= d at www.behavior.net/mhn/bolforum/message/27, about 3/4 down the page. The DSM seminar ran from 7-10 PM, accompanied by spaghetti and Chianti at= Mitchell's Bistro on Cape Cod. 18 attended. The seminar was a supplemental offering to "Healing the Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution," part of the 19th Cape Cod Institute. Evans distinguished 3 kinds of disorders and postulated the existence of = a 4th. 1) Defective modules e.g.: the Theory of Mind Module (ToMM) is defective = in autism (Simon Baron-Cohen) such that an autistic person cannot imagine th= e viewpoint of another person or even that the other person has a viewpoint= =2E = (Also, a psychological adaptation for child care, reciprocity, kin recognition, mate selection, or any number of others is somehow impaired = by developmental trauma such as pathogens or by developmental stress (or by genetic variance unless you believe in a "Universal Human Nature").) 2) Environmental mismatch e.g.: Depression, according to the social competition hypothesis of depression. (Also, changes in status or the death of a loved one are examples of this problem. EM probably occurs ve= ry often whenever people take on goals or tasks for which they have little aptitude or tolerance. An impulsive person who also has some difficultie= s with a bias in his systems for regulating appetite will have a difficult time in our culture.) 3) Protected polymorphisms. E.g., psychopathy, according to James Blair'= s model of "the psychopath as hawk." ( "Polymorphism" applies to two or mo= re forms of a gene occurring in a population at levels greater than expected= on the basis of mutation. Approximately synonymous with "allele." Eye color is a polymorphism; speculation is that schizophrenia may be one. = "Protected" means that the less frequent form of a gene will increase in frequency over generations until it reaches a competitive equilibrium wit= h its other form. For example, "hawk" social strategy is most effective when the rest of the population is not expecting it. Hawk tactics have a= competitive advantage until they increase to the point that compensatory,= protective shifts occur in non-hawks. 4) Adaptations. E.g., postnatal depression is an uncomfortable feeling fo= r the mother but may have survival for her or for her newborn. Increased body temperature is often treated even though it often has protective functions. Nesse and Williams (1994, Why We Get Sick) lists many example= s that may belong in this category. = Dylan raised several questions: 1) What's wrong with the DSM? 2) Can evolutionary psychology correct these faults? 3) Think of a disorder ... into which of the 3 categories does it go? 4) Are there disorders beyond the 3 types mentioned? 5) Are these distinctions useful? = Evans noted that he was more appreciative of the DSM after he had spent some time with it than he had been at the start of his research. = Discussion 1) The DSM represents "research compilations" ... alternative models will= have to account for the same data now summarized by the DSM. 2) The current DSM is functionally identical to an insect collector's display case. Judgments are made about the similarity and differences th= at are seen in complaints from or about different people. Clusters of complaints array into "disorders," arranged by intuitive schemes that involve variations of intensity, eliciting conditions, familial incidence= , and behavior sequences. These arrays are often intuitive and certainly reflect the psychological adaptations and favorite preoccupations of the classifiers. For example, our primate heritage gave us marvelous avoidance systems but we, in our diagnostic searches, may detect more fea= r and danger than is actually present and may react more strongly to such distress in our clients than would be true for a non-primate observer. 3) Medications (particularly the SSRIs) jump existing classificatory schemes. Psychiatry moves, thus, into a phase of classifying disorders b= y their response to a medication or class of medications. For example, the= term, "Serotonergic Spectrum Disorder" has appeared lately. This may be = an advance; it is also analogous to the situation that occurs when a basebal= l is no longer classed as a spherical object or as a tool for use in a particular social arena but is included with other objects on which one uses a bat. 4) There is discord between #2 and #3. For example, serotonin has at least 15 different receptors identified and is involved in temperature regulation, digestion, eating, sleep, sex, and self esteem. Are all of these to be considered part of a "serotonergic spectrum disorder"? A client taking an SSRI "feels better" but may also be less attentive to their family. Current practice is to inquire about mood but not about a= ll the ancillary activities that are also tied to SSRIs. = Stimulants help concentration in normal people and those with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. The stimulants -- by an overwhelming ma= ss of indirect (but little direct!) evidence -- exert the same effect on mania. Stimulants are thought to increase dopamine turnover; mania is thought to be characterized by an excess of dopamine availability. How c= an the stimulants sometimes reduce a manic pattern? Are ADHD and mania the= same thing? They are probably different things but our "adaptations" are= more sensitive to activity level than they are to impaired executive functions or to grandiosity. 5) Evolutionary information may highlight behavioral effects of medications, effects that are now unsuspected. Increasing serotonin availability raises self esteem, it also increases impulsiveness and can sometimes aggravate grandiosity. Rejection sensitivity may be excessive = at work but a highly useful tool when ensuring that the children behave in public. Evolutionary theory and cross-species comparisons should give some information about the rank ordering of shifts in various behaviors a= s a function of the dose and type of SSRI. 6) Mania, ADHD, depression, and other disorders have "global" characterization. There is no attention given to the interaction betwee= n the severity of a disorder and the environment in which the client is located. For example, some children who have limited sustained attention= in class have excellent sustained attention when caring for younger children. There may be a wealth of undiscovered interactions between psychopathology and social context, interactions that are now unsuspected= because of the "complaint" model of making a diagnosis. 7) "Psychological Adaptations" promise a modular approach to client diagnosis, one that incorporates client assets and their complaints into= a treatment approach, and views complaints as a product of both the client'= s particular set of mental adaptations as well as his/her setting. = An "Adaptations" approach has a greater promise of theoretical and applie= d links to proximal sciences such as biology, anthropology, and psychology.= = It also promises great power for understanding individual development; however, it must gain more systematic empirical support for its content before either promise is kept. One contribution of an evolutionary model is that of recognizing patholog= y as sometimes being an adaptive response -- or an exaggeration of one -- that is in a nonsupportive niche. Assessment of the client's other talents as well as his environment become more important steps in forming= treatment alliances and supplying temporally durable assistance. 8) There are barriers to changing anything. The current DSM represents = a substantial financial and administrative apparatus, a growth that arose from research investment and funding (health insurance) needs. Those nee= ds continue and should be respected, apart from considerations of client services. There is an army of professions and professionals whose livelihood and (more importantly) prestige depend on the current system. = An alternative system might well have to be developed outside of established psychiatry. Alternate contributions were touched lightly: Familial traits are probably important beyond that of finding comparable diagnoses for different members within a family tree. Identical mannerisms and habits have been noted often for twins reared apart. It's= unlikely that special genetic laws restrict these phenomena to twins. = Thus, interview parents & grandparents of details of behavior, not just their mental health diagnoses or temperaments. Executive Functions ... their contributions to pathology and for prognosi= s are probably unappreciated, regardless of syndrome. Intact EFs should predict better treatment compliance, higher levels of insight, less impulsive behavior, greater success by the client in solving their own problems, and greater aptitude for inhibiting or magnifying affective response. Complexity models of psychopathology (discussed further Thurs. night "Getting the Client to 'Maybe'") draw upon an analysis of the client's social, financial, and environmental setting to discover factors that stabilize or destabilize him or her. It is suggested that rapid changes = in behavior represent developmental immaturity, trauma, or genetic impairmen= t in the specific behaviors that exhibit rapid changes of intensity, direction, or duration. From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "Margaret (Peggy) Shunick" 21-AUG-1998 10:20:40.50 To: IN%"dagai@netvision.net.il" "Yuval Dagai", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The Spectator Effect Hello again. > other social animals. Until now I found only work been done on humans in > psychological research. If you have noticed any research on the subject please > reply. ...guess I forgot to mention that the cockroach study comes from human research. You should find other studies in human psychology under "social facilitation". It sounds to me as if you might be describing phenomena that are written about in human sociology. If that is the case, I foresee your needing a really strong argument to justify extending findings based on human models to your avian subject population. These are the kind of challenges that really make you work hard. Expect tough questions from your advisor! Regards, Peggy (Margaret) From: IN%"kats@missingpet.org" "Kat Albrecht" 23-AUG-1998 18:10:25.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fox Scat? Hello, I'm looking for someone knowledgable about red fox behavior and someone who can look at 5 peices of suspected fox scat to see if they can be identified as such. This is in regards to a missing cat investigation being conducted by the National Center for Missing Pets (NCMP) for a missing cat named Buster. Buster had been missing for 10 days when the NCMP responded Saturday with an investigator and search dog. The search dog was unable to pick up a scent trail thus a systematic area search of the neighborhood was performed. Buster lived in a residential area located 1 block from the beach (Pacific Ocean, Santa Cruz, California) and 1/2 mile from a state park where coyotes, deer, fox and other wildlife reside. Buster's primary territory range was an occasional visit to the alley behind the owners home, 5 houses to the west, 3 houses to the east and two houses across the street. During our sweep of the territory (which included the search dog checking under and in objects/heavy brush to check for either a live trapped cat or a deceased cat), we came across some startling evidence. We learned that 4 cats are missing in the neighborhood, including one from two houses down. We also found that the alley behind the owners home consists of tall grass, heavy brush and over grown hiding areas. Our search dog, who usually flushes feral cats or locates skunks, possums, bunnies and mice did not locate ANY living creature in the alley in a 2 block stretch! This was quite unusual for this terrain which should have been critter laden. What our dog did continue to find was at least 30 small piles of scat that appeared cat like because they were small, were not buried but where scattered around within a 4 house radius, were cylinder like but doubled over, tapered on the ends (not segmented like dogs), contained fur & berry seeds, and most had almost a sweet smell to them (hey...I love my job!!!). The scat did not have a corn base or the typical dog or cat poop smell. We also noted that unlike the suspected coyote kills that we have worked, where several tufts of cat fur are left behind, there were NO traces of Busters fur left behind. Because of the small scat with seeds in it, the abscene of small critters but presence of unburied small piles of scat in the alley and the abscene of cat fur of four missing cats, we began to think fox, rather than coyote. During one of our final interviews with a neighbor, we learned that one week prior to Buster's disappearance, a neighbor saw a red fox trotting along the road at 6:00a.m., just eight houses away from where Buster lived. My questions are these: 1. How far does a red fox typically range from it's den to obtain food? 2. Does it make sense that a red fox would take a cat into the den to consume it rather than eat it where it grabbed it? 3. Would and COULD a red fox snatch and carry a 13 pound cat? 4. Do you think UPS would mind me shipping fox poop?? (couldn't be any worse than some of the junk mail we get!!!) What we might try to do is attempt to find the den..but I need to talk to rangers about that. We want to see if we can find discarded cat collars, bones, fur or anything that would give closurer to the people who are missing their beloved pets. At the same time, we do not want to do anything that would disrupt or endanger the fox...so more than likely, we won't be hunting for a den. Thanks for any input/suggestions. Kat & Dogs Kathy "Kat" Albrecht Executive Director National Center For Missing Pets *Exciting Search & Rescue Stories *Tips on Finding Lost Pets *Forensic Applications To Missing Pet Investigations *Pet Search & Rescue *If You Own A Pet, Come Visit Us! http://www.missingpet.org From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 24-AUG-1998 04:36:27.69 To: IN%"kats@missingpet.org" "'Kat Albrecht'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Fox Scat? I wrote to the group about the changing fox on 30th July. Here is a letter exchanged 'off net' ensuing from that discussion It has been observed that when foxes eat cats at the scene of the 'crime' there is a tendency to leave the gall bladder and the claws! I had a client here in Worcester who had a relative in Birmngham who found around 8 cat collars in a den under an garden shed. Re: The Changing Fox and Mad Llamas I understand that cougars have begun to eat the occasional jogger in the U.S.A. It seems to me that it is another instance of a creature losing the innate/learned (big question about which or how much of each) fear of Man and/or his activities. The suspension of hunting (cougar) or the avoidance of hunting and hostile response from dog and gun guarded homesteads (fox) by living in town seems to reduce the fight flight distance. In addition people think it is spiffing to feed the foxes on their lawns. Foxes seem adept at encroaching on buildings and sheds in quite close proximity to humans and living almost as commensals. This is fine until the animal is alarmed whilst well within a suitable fight/flight distance and resorts to defensive aggression to escape. I understand that handreared llamas can be extremely violent and have earned the soubriquet of 'mad'. Whilst discussing the problems of alarm in giraffes with the directrice of Dortmund Zoo in 1996 I asked about the llamas and she said it was due to failure of the flight/fight distance phenomenon. She did not enlarge on the matter at the time and I certainly would like to hear more. I must say I do think that harrying wildlife with hounds rather than killing them would be a way of restoring a healthy fear of Man and a way of keeping wildlife from becoming demonised. I have told my clients that throwing a can of pebbles at the foxes would be kinder that feeding them! I am only half jesting when I give this unacceptable advice to normal folk! I think the hunting fraternity should seriously consider combining drag and harrying activity as an alternative to slaughter. With due Railway liaison and safety organisation some beagling along railway embankments could inculcate dog and man fear in the urban population. This could be reduced by universal adoption of the wheely bin instead of the Mediaeval nonsense of putting food out in flimsy plastic bags on the pavements. There were very few foxes in the country in the '50s when I hunted to hounds. All scrap food was fed to domestic dogs and cats or the traditional bacon pig in the garden pen. I think we were more protective of small stock but then there were more people on the farmsteads in those days. I have sadly but confidently predicted the snatching of a new-born baby which will result in a horrendous outcry. One piece of humbug is the notion that baiting with Rabies vaccine would fail because the dominant foxes would get all the bait. The least fearful would get the bait and they are the most likely to get into bite distance. Anyway I doubt that any urban fox resolutely ignores garbage food and keeps to the naturalistic diet. So that's my opinion at present. The fox enthusiasts will still have difficulty with accepting the dangers. Robin E. Walker -----Original Message----- From: Kat Albrecht [SMTP:kats@missingpet.org] Sent: 24 August 1998 01:10 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Fox Scat? Hello, I'm looking for someone knowledgable about red fox behavior and someone who can look at 5 peices of suspected fox scat to see if they can be identified as such. This is in regards to a missing cat investigation being conducted by the National Center for Missing Pets (NCMP) for a missing cat named Buster. Buster had been missing for 10 days when the NCMP responded Saturday with an investigator and search dog. The search dog was unable to pick up a scent trail thus a systematic area search of the neighborhood was performed. Buster lived in a residential area located 1 block from the beach (Pacific Ocean, Santa Cruz, California) and 1/2 mile from a state park where coyotes, deer, fox and other wildlife reside. Buster's primary territory range was an occasional visit to the alley behind the owners home, 5 houses to the west, 3 houses to the east and two houses across the street. During our sweep of the territory (which included the search dog checking under and in objects/heavy brush to check for either a live trapped cat or a deceased cat), we came across some startling evidence. We learned that 4 cats are missing in the neighborhood, including one from two houses down. We also found that the alley behind the owners home consists of tall grass, heavy brush and over grown hiding areas. Our search dog, who usually flushes feral cats or locates skunks, possums, bunnies and mice did not locate ANY living creature in the alley in a 2 block stretch! This was quite unusual for this terrain which should have been critter laden. What our dog did continue to find was at least 30 small piles of scat that appeared cat like because they were small, were not buried but where scattered around within a 4 house radius, were cylinder like but doubled over, tapered on the ends (not segmented like dogs), contained fur & berry seeds, and most had almost a sweet smell to them (hey...I love my job!!!). The scat did not have a corn base or the typical dog or cat poop smell. We also noted that unlike the suspected coyote kills that we have worked, where several tufts of cat fur are left behind, there were NO traces of Busters fur left behind. Because of the small scat with seeds in it, the abscene of small critters but presence of unburied small piles of scat in the alley and the abscene of cat fur of four missing cats, we began to think fox, rather than coyote. During one of our final interviews with a neighbor, we learned that one week prior to Buster's disappearance, a neighbor saw a red fox trotting along the road at 6:00a.m., just eight houses away from where Buster lived. My questions are these: 1. How far does a red fox typically range from it's den to obtain food? 2. Does it make sense that a red fox would take a cat into the den to consume it rather than eat it where it grabbed it? 3. Would and COULD a red fox snatch and carry a 13 pound cat? 4. Do you think UPS would mind me shipping fox poop?? (couldn't be any worse than some of the junk mail we get!!!) What we might try to do is attempt to find the den..but I need to talk to rangers about that. We want to see if we can find discarded cat collars, bones, fur or anything that would give closurer to the people who are missing their beloved pets. At the same time, we do not want to do anything that would disrupt or endanger the fox...so more than likely, we won't be hunting for a den. Thanks for any input/suggestions. Kat & Dogs Kathy "Kat" Albrecht Executive Director National Center For Missing Pets *Exciting Search & Rescue Stories *Tips on Finding Lost Pets *Forensic Applications To Missing Pet Investigations *Pet Search & Rescue *If You Own A Pet, Come Visit Us! http://www.missingpet.org From: IN%"bitte.cederlund@nvb.slu.se" 24-AUG-1998 08:04:05.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dog eating grass and rubbing against "nasty" smelling objects Dear all, Could someone please tell me about the most current knowledge concerning the biological reasons: 1. why domestic dogs and wolves are ingesting grass? 2. " " " " " " " " rolling in half-rotten carcasses, feces, rutting pits of moose or any other substrate with a strong odour. I would be very grateful for references and for your opinion about these phenomenon. The reason for my inquiries is that I am going to write some scientific/popular articles about common behaviour patterns of dog. Feel free to send answers to my personal e-mail address. Sincerely Bitte Cederlund Bitte Cederlund Grimso Wildlife Research Station S-730 91 Riddarhyttan SWEDEN e-mail:bitte.cederlund@nvb.slu.se fax:+46-581 697310 From: IN%"joseph.garner@new.oxford.ac.uk" "Joseph Garner" 24-AUG-1998 10:19:01.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Virus alert Dear all, got this today from a reliable source, not obviously a hoax, so I thought I'd pass it on. cheers Joe >Return-path: >Envelope-to: newc0052@sable.ox.ac.uk >Delivery-date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:56:45 +0100 >X-Sender: irh@genotype.zoo.ox.ac.uk >Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:55:54 +0100 >To: zoology-l@maillist.ox.ac.uk >From: Ian Hackford >Subject: Virus alert >Sender: owner-zoology-l@maillist.ox.ac.uk >Reply-To: Ian Hackford > >Dear all > >I received this information today, the source is reliable. Please beware. > >>>>This message applies only to PCs. >>>> >>>>This is a new twist. Someone is sending out a very desirable screen-saver >>>>the Budweiser Frogs. But if you download it, you will lose everything!!! >>>>Your hard drive will crash!!! >>>> >>>>DON'T DOWNLOAD THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!! IT JUST WENT INTO CIRCULATION >>>>YESTERDAY, AS FAR AS WE KNOW.... BE CAREFUL. >>>> >>>>PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE... BELOW IS WHAT THE >>>>SCREENSAVER OFFER WOULD LOOK LIKE! >>>> >>>>File: BUDSAVER.EXE (24643 bytes) >>>>DL Time (28800 bps): < 1 minute >>>> >>>>If you download, some idiot from the internet will get your screen name and >>>>password! Please send this to any names you can think of and remember never >>>>download BUDDYLST.ZIP >>>> >>>>This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people know about it. >>>>This information was announced from Microsoft. >................................ >Ian Hackford >Laboratory Manager >Wellcome Trust Centre for the Epidemiology of Infectious Disease, >Department of Zoology, >University of Oxford, >South Parks Road, >Oxford. >OX1 3PS > >Tel 44 (0) 1865 281 249 >Fax 44 (0) 1865 281 245 --------------------------------- Joseph Garner, Animal Behaviour Research Group, Zoology Dept. Oxford University, South Parks Road, OX1 3PS Tel: (0)1865 271214 Page: 01523 169589 Fax: (0)1865 310447 From: IN%"aae763@agora.ulaval.ca" "Alain Rivet" 24-AUG-1998 11:03:36.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Virus Message en plusieurs parties et au format MIME. --Boundary_(ID_PAXq3Ftt3F83WCGrm3rH7A) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, got this today from a reliable source, not obviously a hoax, so = I thought I'd pass it on. cheers Joe Hello everyone.. I've heard of a multi-platform java-based virus who could tear your bios = to shred (and thus disabling totally your comp) at a computer congress = amd this information came from a spokesman of Norton (makers of a famous = anti-virus software... No, I'm not on their paylist... ;-) ). I don't = know if it's budweiser but I would advise anyone downloading things from = the internet to get a good anti-virus and to update the dat files = often... Good luck Alain Rivet Conseiller Informatique Coop=E9rative de L'Universit=E9 Laval Comptoir des Arts email: aae763@agora.ulaval.ca --Boundary_(ID_PAXq3Ftt3F83WCGrm3rH7A) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,
        got this = today from=20 a reliable source, not obviously a hoax, so I
thought I'd pass it=20 on.

cheers

       =20 Joe 
 
Hello = everyone..
 
I've heard of a multi-platform = java-based virus who=20 could tear your bios to shred (and thus disabling totally your comp) at = a=20 computer congress amd this information came from a spokesman of Norton = (makers=20 of a famous anti-virus software... No, I'm not on their paylist... ;-) = ). I=20 don't know if it's budweiser but I would advise anyone downloading = things from=20 the internet to get a good anti-virus and to update the dat files=20 often...
 
Good luck
 
Alain = Rivet
Conseiller=20 Informatique
Coopérative de L'Université = Laval
Comptoir des=20 Arts
email: aae763@agora.ulaval.ca<= /DIV> --Boundary_(ID_PAXq3Ftt3F83WCGrm3rH7A)-- From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 24-AUG-1998 11:53:37.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fwd: FW: VIRUS ALERT! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_mD7H0cb9LGC86TqNJOqz1g) Content-id: <0_903981172@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I have a friend who is a computer programmer at General Mills. The following is a section of a memo written by their computer security department concerning virus hoaxes. Note that the Budweiser Frog screensaver file is one of those identified as hoaxes on the list below. I have permission to reproduce this info. << Virus Hoaxes > Several memos are currently going around. Although there are > thousands of viruses discovered each year, there are still some that > only exist in the imaginations of the public and the press. This is a > comprehensive list of VIRUSES THAT DO NOT EXIST (hoaxes), despite > rumor of their creation and distribution. The ones in red are virus > hoaxes that I have seen memo's on in the last few months including the > Bud Frogs Screen Saver . > > *A.I.D.S. Virus Hoax > *AOL4Free Hoax > *Baby New Year Hoax > *Bud Frogs Screen Saver > *BUDDYLST.ZIP Email Hoax > *Deeyenda Hoax > *Ghost.exe Hoax > *Good Times Hoax > *Irina Hoax > *Join The Crew hoax > *A Moment Of Silence Hoax > *Penpal Hoax > *Returned or Unable to Deliver Hoax > *Valentine's Greetings Hoax > *WIN A HOLIDAY Email Hoax > > The Internet is constantly being flooded with information about > computer viruses and Trojans. However, interspersed among real virus > notices are computer virus hoaxes. While these hoaxes do not infect > systems, they are still time consuming and costly to handle. At > General Mills, I find myself spending much more time de-bunking hoaxes > on a daily bases than handling real virus incidents. The above list > shows a number of the hoax warnings that are found on the Internet > today. > > Users are requested to please not spread warnings about viruses > and Trojans. If you receive an warning, don't pass it to all your > friends, pass it to the Computer Security Department Virus Control > person Gary Lokken, to validate first. Validated warnings from the > incident response teams and antivirus vendors have valid return > addresses and are usually PGP signed with the organization's key, but > this alone does not guarantee the warning to be real. Kathy Hughes --Boundary_(ID_mD7H0cb9LGC86TqNJOqz1g) Content-id: <0_903981172@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Kathy, this came from the security crew here a General Mills in Minnesota so hope this will help out........... Shawn > =09Virus Hoaxes > =09Several memos are currently going around. Although there are > thousands of viruses discovered each year, there are still some that > only exist in the imaginations of the public and the press. This is a > comprehensive list of VIRUSES THAT DO NOT EXIST (hoaxes), despite > rumor of their creation and distribution. The ones in red are virus > hoaxes that I have seen memo's on in the last few months including the > Bud Frogs Screen Saver . > > =09*A.I.D.S. Virus Hoax > =09*AOL4Free Hoax =09 > =09*Baby New Year Hoax > =09*Bud Frogs Screen Saver > =09*BUDDYLST.ZIP Email Hoax > =09*Deeyenda Hoax > =09*Ghost.exe Hoax > =09*Good Times Hoax > =09*Irina Hoax > =09*Join The Crew hoax > =09*A Moment Of Silence Hoax > =09*Penpal Hoax > =09*Returned or Unable to Deliver Hoax > =09*Valentine's Greetings Hoax > =09*WIN A HOLIDAY Email Hoax > > =09The Internet is constantly being flooded with information about > computer viruses and Trojans. However, interspersed among real virus > notices are computer virus hoaxes. While these hoaxes do not infect > systems, they are still time consuming and costly to handle. At > General Mills, I find myself spending much more time de-bunking hoaxes > on a daily bases than handling real virus incidents. The above list > shows a number of the hoax warnings that are found on the Internet > today. > > =09Users are requested to please not spread warnings about viruses > and Trojans. If you receive an warning, don't pass it to all your > friends, pass it to the Computer Security Department Virus Control > person Gary Lokken, to validate first. Validated warnings from the > incident response teams and antivirus vendors have valid return > addresses and are usually PGP signed with the organization's key, but > this alone does not guarantee the warning to be real. > > =09Please ignore any messages regarding these supposed "viruses" > and do not pass on any messages about them. Passing on messages about > these hoaxes only serves to further propagate them. > > DO NOT PASS WARNINGS AROUND, WE HAVE VIRUS CONTROL SOFTWARE ON OUR > PC'S AND DO NOT HAVE TO BE OVER CONCERNED ABOUT NEW OR EXISTING > VIRUSES. There are over 150 new viruses identified every month by our > virus control software vender, Network Associates (formally McAfee). > Our vendor guarantees 48 hour fixes for new virus, but the closest > we've ever been to a new virus was four (4) months. > > I appreciate the fact that if your concerned about a virus > notification memo, that you contact me, it could be real, but let me > forward it if it's a risk to General Mills. Don't get fooled by these > e-mails, just ignore them or ask me to verify them if you feel it's > important for you to have an answer. > > > -----Original Message----- > From:=09Shawn Ryan-MicroAge > Sent:=09Friday, August 14, 1998 7:29 AM > To:=09Lynn Simpson-MicroAge > Cc:=09Al Krocak-MicroAge; Paul Caspers-MicroAge; Gary Lokken > Subject:=09Fwd:VIRUS ALERT! > > Anyone hear anything on this? > > Shawn > > > In a press conference early Friday, America Online and CompuServe, > President Steve Case made an announcement about a NEW, very serious > computer virus. "This is a new twist. Someone is sending out a very > desirable screensaver, the Budweiser Frogs" said Case. "But if you > download it, you will lose everything! Your hard drive WILL crash, and > > your computer will be useless. DON'T DOWNLOAD THIS UNDER ANY > CIRCUMSTANCES! It just went into circulation recently, as far as > we know. PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE." > AGAIN, DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANYTHING THAT LOOKS LIKE THE FOLLOWING... > > > > >> > File: BUDSAVER.EXE (24643 bytes) --Boundary_(ID_mD7H0cb9LGC86TqNJOqz1g)-- From: IN%"s352761@student.uq.edu.au" "Tarnya" 24-AUG-1998 19:47:00.53 To: IN%"kats@missingpet.org" "Kat Albrecht" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Fox Scat? Hello Kat, I don't know if this will be of any help to you but............. The other day some friends of mine and myself were out bird watching. On our return to the car (traversing through some thick Lantana in a Eucalypt forest), we came across a scat of some description. We found it on top of a log. It certainly didn't look like the scat of any native Australian animal we had ever seen (and it matches your description of the scat you found - was greenish in colour), and after some deliberation, decided it was from a fox. It contained berries and a whole and intact foot of a water bird (probably a Darter - it would have been easy prey for a fox as it sat and dried its wings). Being the inquisitive students that we are, we took the scat to one of our lecturers - mainly to find out what the bird was. During our discussion about the fox and the bird he made mention of the fact that the fox would have caught the bird and taken it somewhere else to eat it. The Darter is quite a large bird, so perhaps your fox has killed the cat and taken it somewhere else (maybe it's den), as they are apparently quite shy animals and feel vulnerable while feeding outdoors. I was also told of another story where the release of Bilby's in western Queensland was trialed. The Bilby's were fenced in, yet they kept disappearing. It was found that a fox had come in and taken them. Their bones were found in the den. I have also seen some programs on feral animals in Australia (of which the fox is one), and have seen a fox grab an animal and run off with it to some other place (assumably its den). I hope this has helped in some way. Tarnya Kat Albrecht wrote: > Hello, > I'm looking for someone knowledgable about red fox behavior > and > someone who can look at 5 peices of suspected fox scat to see if they > can be > identified as such. This is in regards to a missing cat investigation > being > conducted by the National Center for Missing Pets (NCMP) for a missing > cat > named Buster. > Buster had been missing for 10 days when the NCMP responded > Saturday > with an investigator and search dog. The search dog was unable to > pick up a > scent trail thus a systematic area search of the neighborhood was > performed. > Buster lived in a residential area located 1 block from the beach > (Pacific > Ocean, Santa Cruz, California) and 1/2 mile from a state park where > coyotes, > deer, fox and other wildlife reside. Buster's primary territory range > was > an occasional visit to the alley behind the owners home, 5 houses to > the > west, 3 houses to the east and two houses across the street. > During our sweep of the territory (which included the search > dog > checking under and in objects/heavy brush to check for either a live > trapped > cat or a deceased cat), we came across some startling evidence. We > learned > that 4 cats are missing in the neighborhood, including one from two > houses > down. We also found that the alley behind the owners home consists of > tall > grass, heavy brush and over grown hiding areas. Our search dog, who > usually > flushes feral cats or locates skunks, possums, bunnies and mice did > not > locate ANY living creature in the alley in a 2 block stretch! This > was > quite unusual for this terrain which should have been critter laden. > What > our dog did continue to find was at least 30 small piles of scat that > appeared cat like because they were small, were not buried but where > scattered around within a 4 house radius, were cylinder like but > doubled > over, tapered on the ends (not segmented like dogs), contained fur & > berry > seeds, and most had almost a sweet smell to them (hey...I love my > job!!!). > The scat did not have a corn base or the typical dog or cat poop > smell. We > also noted that unlike the suspected coyote kills that we have worked, > where > several tufts of cat fur are left behind, there were NO traces of > Busters > fur left behind. > Because of the small scat with seeds in it, the abscene of > small > critters but presence of unburied small piles of scat in the alley and > the > abscene of cat fur of four missing cats, we began to think fox, rather > than > coyote. During one of our final interviews with a neighbor, we > learned that > one week prior to Buster's disappearance, a neighbor saw a red fox > trotting > along the road at 6:00a.m., just eight houses away from where Buster > lived. > My questions are these: > 1. How far does a red fox typically range from it's den to > obtain food? > 2. Does it make sense that a red fox would take a cat into > the den to > consume it rather than eat it where it grabbed it? > 3. Would and COULD a red fox snatch and carry a 13 pound cat? > > 4. Do you think UPS would mind me shipping fox poop?? > (couldn't be any > worse than some of the junk mail we get!!!) > > What we might try to do is attempt to find the den..but I need to talk > to > rangers about that. We want to see if we can find discarded cat > collars, > bones, fur or anything that would give closurer to the people who are > missing their beloved pets. At the same time, we do not want to do > anything > that would disrupt or endanger the fox...so more than likely, we won't > be > hunting for a den. Thanks for any input/suggestions. > > Kat & Dogs > > Kathy "Kat" Albrecht > Executive Director > National Center For Missing Pets > *Exciting Search & Rescue Stories *Tips on Finding Lost Pets *Forensic > > Applications To Missing Pet Investigations *Pet Search & Rescue *If > You Own > A Pet, Come Visit Us! > http://www.missingpet.org From: IN%"s352761@student.uq.edu.au" "Tarnya" 24-AUG-1998 19:52:18.47 To: IN%"kats@missingpet.org" "Kat Albrecht" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Fox Scat? Hello Kat, I don't know if this will be of any help to you but............. The other day some friends of mine and myself were out bird watching. On our return to the car (traversing through some thick Lantana in a Eucalypt forest), we came across a scat of some description. We found it on top of a log. It certainly didn't look like the scat of any native Australian animal we had ever seen, and after some deliberation, decided it was from a fox. It contained berries and a whole and intact foot of a water bird (probably a Darter - it would have been easy prey for a fox as it sat and dried its wings). Being the inquisitive students that we are, we took the scat to one of our lecturers - mainly to find out what the bird was. During our discussion about the fox and the bird he made mention of the fact that the fox would have caught the bird and taken it somewhere else to eat it. The Darter is quite a large bird, so perhaps your fox has killed the cat and taken it somewhere else (maybe it's den). I have also seen some programes on feral animals in Australia (of which the fox is one), and have seen a fox grab an animal and run off with it to some other place. I hope this has helped in some way. Tarnya Kat Albrecht wrote: > Hello, > I'm looking for someone knowledgable about red fox behavior > and > someone who can look at 5 peices of suspected fox scat to see if they > can be > identified as such. This is in regards to a missing cat investigation > being > conducted by the National Center for Missing Pets (NCMP) for a missing > cat > named Buster. > Buster had been missing for 10 days when the NCMP responded > Saturday > with an investigator and search dog. The search dog was unable to > pick up a > scent trail thus a systematic area search of the neighborhood was > performed. > Buster lived in a residential area located 1 block from the beach > (Pacific > Ocean, Santa Cruz, California) and 1/2 mile from a state park where > coyotes, > deer, fox and other wildlife reside. Buster's primary territory range > was > an occasional visit to the alley behind the owners home, 5 houses to > the > west, 3 houses to the east and two houses across the street. > During our sweep of the territory (which included the search > dog > checking under and in objects/heavy brush to check for either a live > trapped > cat or a deceased cat), we came across some startling evidence. We > learned > that 4 cats are missing in the neighborhood, including one from two > houses > down. We also found that the alley behind the owners home consists of > tall > grass, heavy brush and over grown hiding areas. Our search dog, who > usually > flushes feral cats or locates skunks, possums, bunnies and mice did > not > locate ANY living creature in the alley in a 2 block stretch! This > was > quite unusual for this terrain which should have been critter laden. > What > our dog did continue to find was at least 30 small piles of scat that > appeared cat like because they were small, were not buried but where > scattered around within a 4 house radius, were cylinder like but > doubled > over, tapered on the ends (not segmented like dogs), contained fur & > berry > seeds, and most had almost a sweet smell to them (hey...I love my > job!!!). > The scat did not have a corn base or the typical dog or cat poop > smell. We > also noted that unlike the suspected coyote kills that we have worked, > where > several tufts of cat fur are left behind, there were NO traces of > Busters > fur left behind. > Because of the small scat with seeds in it, the abscene of > small > critters but presence of unburied small piles of scat in the alley and > the > abscene of cat fur of four missing cats, we began to think fox, rather > than > coyote. During one of our final interviews with a neighbor, we > learned that > one week prior to Buster's disappearance, a neighbor saw a red fox > trotting > along the road at 6:00a.m., just eight houses away from where Buster > lived. > My questions are these: > 1. How far does a red fox typically range from it's den to > obtain food? > 2. Does it make sense that a red fox would take a cat into > the den to > consume it rather than eat it where it grabbed it? > 3. Would and COULD a red fox snatch and carry a 13 pound cat? > > 4. Do you think UPS would mind me shipping fox poop?? > (couldn't be any > worse than some of the junk mail we get!!!) > > What we might try to do is attempt to find the den..but I need to talk > to > rangers about that. We want to see if we can find discarded cat > collars, > bones, fur or anything that would give closurer to the people who are > missing their beloved pets. At the same time, we do not want to do > anything > that would disrupt or endanger the fox...so more than likely, we won't > be > hunting for a den. Thanks for any input/suggestions. > > Kat & Dogs > > Kathy "Kat" Albrecht > Executive Director > National Center For Missing Pets > *Exciting Search & Rescue Stories *Tips on Finding Lost Pets *Forensic > > Applications To Missing Pet Investigations *Pet Search & Rescue *If > You Own > A Pet, Come Visit Us! > http://www.missingpet.org From: IN%"rudy.demeester@ping.be" "De Meester" 25-AUG-1998 09:35:08.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: red fox scats Rudy De Meester dr. med. vet. sint anna 100 9220 Hamme Belgium rudy.demeester@ping.be Is there anyone that knows if ( and if yes, why ) a fox eats only the head of the ducks he can catch? If this is not typical for the fox, what( or who) else could it have done? Is it true that foxes never chase in 50 m around their dens? Why does a fox kills all the chickens and eats only one ot two of them? Thanks a lot. From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 25-AUG-1998 10:09:29.45 To: IN%"rudy.demeester@ping.be" "De Meester" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Carnivorous sheep and deer Rudy et al. > Is there anyone that knows if ( and if yes, why ) a fox eats only the head > of the ducks he can catch? > If this is not typical for the fox, what( or who) else could it have done? I've no idea whether this applies in your case, but there have been cases of both sheep (on North Ronaldsay, Orkney) and red deer (on the Isle of Rum, Hebrides) killing sea birds and eating either only the head, or the head and the limb joints, presumably for the large quantities of minerals there. So perhaps your predator could be one of a number of species. > Why does a fox kills all the chickens and eats only one ot two of them? A very vulnerable bird - such as a slow moving chicken - is a powerful stimulus to a fox. It must have been rare in evolutionary history to encounter LOTS of such vulnerable prey (although there are recorded cases of mass killing in the wild), so it would generally make sense for a predator to kill as many prey as possible as quickly as possible. The chicken coop is as unnatural an environment for a fox as it is for a chicken. So why WOULDN'T it kill them all? Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 25-AUG-1998 13:28:26.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: red fox scats >Why does a fox kills all the chickens and eats only one ot two of them? > >Thanks a lot. > > I read a report fairly recently (can not remember where) that stated that in cats the hunger center and the predatory center are quite separate in the brain. Also, that at least subjectively, the observer decided that the act of killing is a pleasurable thing in cats. If that is the case in this predator, it would not seem unreasonable that killing chickens is a fun thing for another predator: foxes, weasels, etc. -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"Jon_Day@adas.co.uk" 26-AUG-1998 05:38:08.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Position announcement This mail message, and any attachments, has been checked for Viruses by ADAS before dispatch to the Internet. Form: Memo Text: (28 lines follow) SENIOR SCIENTIFIC OFFICER - PIGS ADAS Terrington, a leading centre for pig research, is seeking to appoint a= =0D Senior Scientific Officer. ADAS Terrington is located near King=92s Lynn in Norfolk and has a 300 sow = =0D unit with excellent research facilities. Applicants should preferably have a degree and at least 2 years experience = =0D in pig welfare research. The successful candidate will act as experiment = =0D leader in the research programme, under the direction of the Research =0D Scientists. Duties will include supervising scientific staff, drafting =0D protocols, setting up and performing experiments, collating and analysing = =0D behaviour and performance data and drafting reports. Good communication skills are vital and a current driving licence is =0D necessary. =20 Salary will depend on experience and qualifications. The appointment will = =0D be on permanent terms.=20 For an application form, please contact Mrs Sarah Eastwood, ADAS Terrington= , =0D Terrington St Clement, King=92s Lynn, PE34 4PW, Tel: 01553 828621, Fax: 015= 53 =0D 827229, E-mail: Sarah_Eastwood@adas.co.uk =20 Closing Date for Completed Applications: 11 September 1998 ADAS is an equal opportunities employer. Use Proportional Font: true From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 26-AUG-1998 10:10:22.66 To: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"rudy.demeester@ping.be" "De Meester", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Carnivorous sheep and deer On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Mike Appleby wrote: > > Why does a fox kills all the chickens and eats only one ot two of them? > > A very vulnerable bird - such as a slow moving chicken - is a > powerful stimulus to a fox. It must have been rare in evolutionary > history to encounter LOTS of such vulnerable prey (although there are > recorded cases of mass killing in the wild), so it would generally > make sense for a predator to kill as many prey as possible as quickly > as possible. The chicken coop is as unnatural an environment for a > fox as it is for a chicken. So why WOULDN'T it kill them all? > > Mike As Mike says, apparently there are places where LOTS of vulnerable prey are available to foxes, during certain years in certain locations. When given the opportunity foxes do continue to kill natural prey beyond their apparent hunger threshold. For a good example (and great picture of this event) check out the August 1990 issue of Natural History. " The booming squirrel population is something of a living larder for the park's large predators: golden eagles, wolves, wolverines, lynxes, and even grizzlies savor the plump rodents. Midday on July, the photographer (Rick McIntyre) spotted this red fox (with the dark markings common in Alaska) taking a shortcut along a gravel road and carrying three full-grown ground squirrels. The sight of a fourth, conspicuous against the roadbed and far from safety of a burrow, was irresistible. The hunter dropped the load, deftly pounced and dealt a swift bite to a new victim, and resolutely crammed all four carcasses into its mouth. When last seen, the fox had ducked into the brush and was heading for its den and its own summer's flush - a litter of ravenous kits. It is a great picture and one I stumbled across a couple of days ago while looking for another article. It never ceases to amaze me how a topic in one place (like the applied-ethology) surfaces somewhere else when I least expect it! Take care, Joe =========================== Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada From: IN%"arkabc@arkanimals.com" 26-AUG-1998 11:23:48.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: favorite resources I am interested in putting together a top ten list of behavior books.I am curious as to what books or articles list members recommend on behavior. (ie., your favorites) I am currently not subscribed on the list, please email me directly at arkabc@arkanimals.com with any suggestions. I am looking for general topic books, but if you have favorites related to specific species, please feel free to submit them. I'll gladly post the results on the list. Thanks in advance, Diana Guerrero http://www.arkanimals.com From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 26-AUG-1998 16:36:13.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: red fox scats Reply to message from aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu of Tue, 25 Aug > >>Why does a fox kills all the chickens and eats only one ot two of them? > > I read a report fairly recently (can not remember where) that >stated that in cats the hunger center and the predatory center >are quite separate in the brain. Also, that at least subjectively, >the observer decided that the act of killing is a pleasurable >thing in cats. If that is the case in this predator, it would >not seem unreasonable that killing chickens is a fun thing for >another predator: foxes, weasels, etc. > It bugged me that I could not remember the reference to the above information, so I spent some time and found it: It was a Friskies report of a lecture that Peter Neville presented to the World Small Animal Veterinary Congress; October 1995, Yokohama, Japan. -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 26-AUG-1998 17:34:00.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Red Fox Scats De Meester wrote: > Is there anyone that knows if ( and if yes, why ) a fox eats only the head > of the ducks he can catch? > If this is not typical for the fox, what( or who) else could it have done? Hello All: Raptors (among other animals) commonly eat the head first from their prey. In captivity, a well-fed raptor may at times choose to eat only the heads. (This may be an individual choice, as some raptors refuse heads altogether). The fatty tissue of the brain is thought to offer a beneficial dietary supplement. The way I've observed them 'savor' this meal indicates to me that this is quite the tasty morsel. (Many human cultures, as well, enjoy animal brains as a delicacy). This behavior may be seen in animals that are, otherwise, fat and happy. A very hungry animal usually rips open the carcass to get to the internal organs first, then moves to the muscle and fatty tissues, bones, etc. > Why does a fox kills all the chickens and eats only one ot two of them? The way I understand this behavior, wild canids who attack in a 'frenzy' may be responding to the 'unnatural' signals of the domestic prey animals. Barry Lopez in "Of Wolves and Men" offers: "The conversation of death falters noticeably with domestic stock. They have had the conversation of death bred out of them: they do not know how to encounter wolves. A horse, for example - a large animal as capable as a moose of cracking a wolf's ribs or splitting its head open with a kick-will usually panic and run... "(This) apparent compulsion is perhaps not so much slaughter as a failure on the part of the sheep to communicate anything at all - resistance, mutual respect, appropriateness - to the wolf. The wolf has initiated a sacred ritual and met with ignorance." It is interesting to see the predator/prey relationship as a two-way street - or, a dance, if you will. Just musing, Donna Reynolds Lindsay Wildlife Museum, Walnut Creek, CA From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 27-AUG-1998 03:22:48.79 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: The Jackal Hope the following is a suitable subject for this list. I seem to have drawn a blank at the local library and University and wondered if someone out there could please supply answers to the following: 1. Does the Jackal ( canis aureus) have 74 chromosomes or 78? 2. Can it (canis aureus) interbreed with canis familiaris and/or canis lupis lupis? 3. If so are the offspring fertile or infertile? I would really appreciate some help. Thank you in anticipation Glynne k9acad@iafrica.com From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 27-AUG-1998 08:27:52.29 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Wildlifers' Scat Dear All, The statement below attributed to Barry Lopez in "Of Wolves and Men" is a good example of what I consider to be the ignorance about and lack of respect for domestic animals by too many persons who credited as being knowledgeable about animal biology. > "The > conversation of death falters noticeably with domestic stock. They > have had the conversation of death bred out of them: they do not know > how to encounter wolves. ... "(This) apparent > compulsion (of the wolf) is perhaps not so much slaughter as a > failure on the part > of the sheep to communicate anything at all - resistance, mutual > respect, appropriateness - to the wolf. The wolf has initiated a > sacred ritual and met with ignorance." > There are numerous likely contributing environmental factors to the behavior of domestic animals when confronting predators that should be discussed long before one starts speculating about the "genetic-based stupidity" of domestic animals. And this is not to mention that it is common in some species for both wild and domestic animals to use tonic immobility for predator aversion. Are the wild sheep that use a tonic immobility strategy simply stupid? I don't think so. These sheep are products of an adaptive strategy. Natural selection has resulted in a genetic system that "knows" that it is sometimes a better strategy to be immobile when confronting a predator than it is to run. For a given individual this strategy may fail - and it is much more likely to fail if the _situation_ (all environmental factors - including the early development of the prey) are artificially contrived or influenced by humans. Additionally, for anyone who can readily dismiss domestic animals as having had "the conversation of death bred out of them," I point out that according to Lorenz and many other persons, _humans are domestic animals_. I doubt very much that one can demonstrate that modern humans have lost their concept of death as a consequence of their domestication. And I see no reason to believe that other domestic animals differ from humans in this regard. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "Margaret (Peggy) Shunick" 27-AUG-1998 09:22:09.85 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Red Fox Scats > Hello All: > It is interesting to see the predator/prey relationship as a two-way > street - or, a dance, if you will. Folks are encouraged to be wallflowers at their nearest wooly dancehall before making judgments about the mental state of sheep. That dancehall would be any Border Collie trial. "Classic" predator/prey stuff going on constantly. Just remember the dog/handler team is TWO predators working cooperatively. Last weekend here in Montana, we worked 6 corgi's, 1 aussie, a sheltie, and dear ol' Ty my Border. The most priceless look of the day was near the end of the five hours it took to complete this marathon. Tyler was acting as "back up" for a corgi that was still trying to dredge up some genetic memories from its past: They (Ty) had just grouped five lambs when the corgi decided running into the midst of the lambs would be a good thing. Of course, lambs scattered in all directions. Ty dropped back to gain control ONE MORE TIME and shot me the most DISGUSTED look. 'Ya had to be there to appreciate it!!!! Peggy in Montana....with the range maggots (or insert your own bad stereotype; suggest alluding to either Freemen or Unibomber or Rimini)" From: IN%"dmills@dmu.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" 27-AUG-1998 10:39:50.01 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Vacancy in equine science A vacancy has arisen within the School of Agriculture at De Montfort University Lincoln for a veterinary surgeon or animal health scientist with research experience or aspirations in one of the following fields: equine behaviour, reproduction, nutrition or biomechanics. Duties will include both undergraduate teaching and research. Further details are available from: The Personnel Dept De Montfort University Chad Varah House Wordsworth Street Lincoln LN1 3BP Closing date for applications September 11 1998 From: IN%"galindof@servidor.unam.mx" 27-AUG-1998 15:27:31.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: cortisol-primates Hi ! Does anybody know which is the major route of cortisol excretion in primates ? Or which percentage is eliminated through faeces ? Bye for now Francisco From: IN%"kats@missingpet.org" "Kat Albrecht" 27-AUG-1998 21:34:04.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Red Fox Scats (Last Call..) I never got a response to my request for someone to examine scat. Does anyone know of a scatologist who can look at five peices of dried scat?? Any recommendations on where I might find someone qualified to do this would be appreciated (i.e. yellow pages under poop-ologist??). An interesting update on our suspected coyote kill (of missing cat Cleo) from June. A forensic hair examiner was able to determine that the animal hair found at the kill site was in fact cat hair. However, they were unable to make a conclusive statement that it was Cleo's hair. We are now seeking a DNA specialist in an attempt to match DNA from the killed cat's hair with Cleo's bedding hair. The owner would like to whether or not Cleo was killed. (Will be away from e-mail until Monday). Kat & Dogs Kathy "Kat" Albrecht Executive Director National Center For Missing Pets *Exciting Search & Rescue Stories *Tips on Finding Lost Pets *Forensic Applications To Missing Pet Investigations *Pet Search & Rescue *If You Own A Pet, Come Visit Us! http://www.missingpet.org From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 27-AUG-1998 23:41:45.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Red Fox Scat Hello All- W. Ray Stricklin wrote: > > The statement below attributed to Barry Lopez in "Of Wolves and Men" > is a good example of what I consider to be the ignorance about and > lack of respect for domestic animals by too many persons who credited > as being knowledgeable about animal biology. Yowsa! Me thinks the gentleman doth protest too much ;O) Barry Lopez is a well-researched author who makes no claims of being a biologist. He does, however, offer some thought-provoking perspectives on the matter of surplus killing of wolves in his book based on his months of interviews with field biologists, wolf researchers, hunters, indigenous people and the like. I find his angle on the issue fascinating and posted it on the list as a departure point for discussion. (Things have been pretty quiet around here!) > There are numerous likely contributing environmental factors to the > behavior of domestic animals when confronting predators that should > be discussed long before one starts speculating about the > "genetic-based stupidity" of domestic animals. Then please, share these perspectives with us. This is indeed the right place to do just that. > And this is not to mention that it is common in some species for both > wild and domestic animals to use tonic immobility for predator > aversion. Are the wild sheep that use a tonic immobility strategy > simply stupid? I don't think so. These sheep are products of an > adaptive strategy. Natural selection has resulted in a genetic > system that "knows" that it is sometimes a better strategy to be > immobile when confronting a predator than it is to run. For a given > individual this strategy may fail - and it is much more likely to > fail if the _situation_ (all environmental factors - including the > early development of the prey) are artificially contrived or > influenced by humans. Wild sheep are surely better adapted to surviving a predator's attacks than are domestic sheep. I believe Lopez's view was that a domestic sheep's 'proper' lack of reponse signals to the wolf that it is somehow in poor health and 'willing' to die. This information may trigger an attack on the part of the wolf, and, an entire flock of sheep "in poor health" may inspire the frenzied surplus killing that occurs. I am no expert on wolf behavior, and I'm sure others on this list have much more to offer on this subject..... The point I find so fascinating is the concept of prey animals playing an equally important role in the predator/prey relationship. Beyond physical adaptations and circumstances, prey animals (of wolves and maybe other canids, at least) may be communicating subtle signals that encourage/discourage an attack. Through the exaggerated example of a wolf killing numerous domestic animals for no logical reason that we can detect (besides to label them 'greedy' or 'evil"), we may have unwittingly uncovered a behavior that, in its natural place, offers us a version of the predator/prey relationship that is quite thought-provoking. > Additionally, for anyone who can readily dismiss domestic animals as > having had "the conversation of death bred out of them," I point out > that according to Lorenz and many other persons, _humans are domestic > animals_. I doubt very much that one can demonstrate that modern > humans have lost their concept of death as a consequence of their > domestication. (Hmmmm...in my urban neighborhood young gunshot victims suffer the consequences of a total lack of a concept of death in this culture everyday. But to bring this human behavior into the mix can only muddy the conversation......Can we stick to the critters?) Regards, Donna Reynolds Lindsay Wildlife Museum Walnut Creek, CA From: IN%"pbmcconn@facstaff.wisc.edu" 28-AUG-1998 08:05:57.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: domestic animals Kudos to Ray Stricklin for his reminder that ignorant and unconstructive comments continue to be made about domestic animals. My two cents worth come from both an ethological and applied perspective --- in addition to my academic background I raise sheep and border collies. When you train young inexperienced dog to herd sheep, you get a very good sense of what sheep do when they perceive that they are in danger. I have seen many young Border collies get run off a pasture by indignant sheep, have seen a few get slammed into a fence or cement wall before the human could get there to protect them, would never go into the pasture where my ram is without a dog, and was almost killed or severely by a ewe myself: a Scottish blackface had just lambed, I entered to move a feed pan and she began to ram at me, trapping me between her, her very impressive horns and bony forehead and the cement wall of barn. At first I was irritated, after dodging right and left and not being able to escape I became downright mad, and after several more minutes I became terrified that I was about to die a stupid death --- my legs were giving out and I was unable to move fast enough to get away from her. Injured, shaky legged and now in terror, I simply continued trying my ineffectual escape manuevers (I had no access to any hard object with which to protect myself) until Cool Hand Luke, my adult male Border collie jumped a 5 foot stall wall, lept between me and her and held her off til I could crawl out. He lost two teeth from biting at her bony forehead when she came forward, but otherwise escaped injury. I would love to tell you that Luke intentionally saved my life, and indeed, he well might have. If any dog would do that, it would be Luke. Luke however, also adores being in the middle of things, and occassionally takes a "make my day" approach to working tough sheep, so needless to say, I can make no attribution about his motivations. My story rather, is to support Ray's reminder that those of us who work with domestic animals simply laugh when we read a line like Lopez's, or the philospher Callicott, who says that "domestic animals are no more real animals than are furry tables and chairs". I wish I could introduce them both to Colleen, the Scottish Blackface, who would be happy to instruct them in the reality of "domestication". One last note: it was an excellent lecture from Ray at ABS a few years back that stimulated me to think: "good grief,'domestication' is used by scientists and the public alike in such a sloppy way that I'm not sure we even have a reasonable biologically valid definition". (Yes, I am aware of the published definitions, but how many "domestic animals" really fit it?) Any thoughts? Trisha *********************************** Patricia B. McConnell, Ph.D. Ass't Adjunct Professor, Dept. of Zoology, UW-Madison Birge Hall, Madison, Wisconsin 53706 Applied Ethologist, Dog's Best Friend, Ltd. P.O. Box 447 Black Earth, Wisconsin 53515 608 767-2435 FAX 608 767-3726 (Send mail or calls here, not to UW) ************************************ From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 28-AUG-1998 08:15:42.34 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "'James F. Brody'", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: The DSM and Evolutionary Psychology: Seminar Notes Brody annotates Evans thus:- 4) There is discord between #2 and #3. For example, serotonin has at least 15 different receptors identified and is involved in temperature regulation, digestion, eating, sleep, sex, and self esteem. Are all of these to be considered part of a "serotonergic spectrum disorder"? A client taking an SSRI "feels better" but may also be less attentive to their family. Current practice is to inquire about mood but not about all the ancillary activities that are also tied to SSRIs. I think that taking neurophysiology off the two dimensional page can be misleading. The brain has evolved the precise abilities to use single transmitter chemicals for many purposes without creating interference. Life would be impossible it systems such as vision or balance were grossly affected by large amounts of shared transmitter or modulator chemical being produced in adjacent brain areas. Many systems are necessarily subservient to emotional activity. Respiratory and cardiac functions are notable examples. It is the very detachability of mood or emotion from the routine of homeostatic regulation that makes pharmacological definition possible. A quotation which I think helps is reproduced from Rolls, A Theory of Emotion, Cognition and Emotion, 1990, 4, p 166. ... (Many brain systems use lateral inhibition in order to maintain sensitivity to contrast constant, but this is not possible in the emotion system in which absolute levels of reinforcer must be reflected over moderately long time spans). The difficulty of maintaining a constant absolute level of firing in neurones such as these may contribute to "spontaneous mood swings, depression which occurs without a clear external cause, and the multiplicity of hormonal and transmitter systems which seem to be involved in the control of mood...... Secondly Quite so. Is this not predictable and consistent? An SSRI may make a person "better" in the sense of experiencing greater "resting contentment" or "a sense of getting a result or reward from life". Can we not allow that a person who is more self contented may be less in need of feedback from trading contact with others? Might it be the case that the idealised examples of maternal and social "groomers and carers" are to some extent the more needy individuals? (With some difficulties in adjusting to the loss or escape of their care objects !). Such a fuss is made about the individual who is so self fulfilled and hence preoccupied as to appear chilly and ungiving to the emotional craver. Since the latter writes the noisiest books and creates the greatest outcry (s)he tends to demonise folk who might simply be envied as rather complete. We always seem to want it both ways. Robin (Your average overneeder) -----Original Message----- From: James F. Brody [SMTP:JBrody@compuserve.com] Sent: 21 August 1998 03:26 To: HBES List Serve; Paleopsych; Applied Ethology Subject: The DSM and Evolutionary Psychology: Seminar Notes EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY AND THE CLASSIFICATION OF MENTAL DISORDERS Wednesday, July 22, 1998. Dylan Evans, M.A., Ph. D. Candidate Center for the Philosophy of Natural and Social Sciences London School of Economics London, U. K., WC2A 2AE Notes by Jim Brody, 8/20/98. This was the 2nd in a series of 3 seminars. Notes for the 3rd, "Complexity Theory: Getting the Client to 'Maybe'" will be circulated in about a week. Notes for all 3 seminars can also be found at www.behavior.net/mhn/bolforum/message/27, about 3/4 down the page. The DSM seminar ran from 7-10 PM, accompanied by spaghetti and Chianti at Mitchell's Bistro on Cape Cod. 18 attended. The seminar was a supplemental offering to "Healing the Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution," part of the 19th Cape Cod Institute. Evans distinguished 3 kinds of disorders and postulated the existence of a 4th. 1) Defective modules e.g.: the Theory of Mind Module (ToMM) is defective in autism (Simon Baron-Cohen) such that an autistic person cannot imagine the viewpoint of another person or even that the other person has a viewpoint. (Also, a psychological adaptation for child care, reciprocity, kin recognition, mate selection, or any number of others is somehow impaired by developmental trauma such as pathogens or by developmental stress (or by genetic variance unless you believe in a "Universal Human Nature").) 2) Environmental mismatch e.g.: Depression, according to the social competition hypothesis of depression. (Also, changes in status or the death of a loved one are examples of this problem. EM probably occurs very often whenever people take on goals or tasks for which they have little aptitude or tolerance. An impulsive person who also has some difficulties with a bias in his systems for regulating appetite will have a difficult time in our culture.) 3) Protected polymorphisms. E.g., psychopathy, according to James Blair's model of "the psychopath as hawk." ( "Polymorphism" applies to two or more forms of a gene occurring in a population at levels greater than expected on the basis of mutation. Approximately synonymous with "allele." Eye color is a polymorphism; speculation is that schizophrenia may be one. "Protected" means that the less frequent form of a gene will increase in frequency over generations until it reaches a competitive equilibrium with its other form. For example, "hawk" social strategy is most effective when the rest of the population is not expecting it. Hawk tactics have a competitive advantage until they increase to the point that compensatory, protective shifts occur in non-hawks. 4) Adaptations. E.g., postnatal depression is an uncomfortable feeling for the mother but may have survival for her or for her newborn. Increased body temperature is often treated even though it often has protective functions. Nesse and Williams (1994, Why We Get Sick) lists many examples that may belong in this category. Dylan raised several questions: 1) What's wrong with the DSM? 2) Can evolutionary psychology correct these faults? 3) Think of a disorder ... into which of the 3 categories does it go? 4) Are there disorders beyond the 3 types mentioned? 5) Are these distinctions useful? Evans noted that he was more appreciative of the DSM after he had spent some time with it than he had been at the start of his research. Discussion 1) The DSM represents "research compilations" ... alternative models will have to account for the same data now summarized by the DSM. 2) The current DSM is functionally identical to an insect collector's display case. Judgments are made about the similarity and differences that are seen in complaints from or about different people. Clusters of complaints array into "disorders," arranged by intuitive schemes that involve variations of intensity, eliciting conditions, familial incidence, and behavior sequences. These arrays are often intuitive and certainly reflect the psychological adaptations and favorite preoccupations of the classifiers. For example, our primate heritage gave us marvelous avoidance systems but we, in our diagnostic searches, may detect more fear and danger than is actually present and may react more strongly to such distress in our clients than would be true for a non-primate observer. 3) Medications (particularly the SSRIs) jump existing classificatory schemes. Psychiatry moves, thus, into a phase of classifying disorders by their response to a medication or class of medications. For example, the term, "Serotonergic Spectrum Disorder" has appeared lately. This may be an advance; it is also analogous to the situation that occurs when a baseball is no longer classed as a spherical object or as a tool for use in a particular social arena but is included with other objects on which one uses a bat. 4) There is discord between #2 and #3. For example, serotonin has at least 15 different receptors identified and is involved in temperature regulation, digestion, eating, sleep, sex, and self esteem. Are all of these to be considered part of a "serotonergic spectrum disorder"? A client taking an SSRI "feels better" but may also be less attentive to their family. Current practice is to inquire about mood but not about all the ancillary activities that are also tied to SSRIs. Stimulants help concentration in normal people and those with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. The stimulants -- by an overwhelming mass of indirect (but little direct!) evidence -- exert the same effect on mania. Stimulants are thought to increase dopamine turnover; mania is thought to be characterized by an excess of dopamine availability. How can the stimulants sometimes reduce a manic pattern? Are ADHD and mania the same thing? They are probably different things but our "adaptations" are more sensitive to activity level than they are to impaired executive functions or to grandiosity. 5) Evolutionary information may highlight behavioral effects of medications, effects that are now unsuspected. Increasing serotonin availability raises self esteem, it also increases impulsiveness and can sometimes aggravate grandiosity. Rejection sensitivity may be excessive at work but a highly useful tool when ensuring that the children behave in public. Evolutionary theory and cross-species comparisons should give some information about the rank ordering of shifts in various behaviors as a function of the dose and type of SSRI. 6) Mania, ADHD, depression, and other disorders have "global" characterization. There is no attention given to the interaction between the severity of a disorder and the environment in which the client is located. For example, some children who have limited sustained attention in class have excellent sustained attention when caring for younger children. There may be a wealth of undiscovered interactions between psychopathology and social context, interactions that are now unsuspected because of the "complaint" model of making a diagnosis. 7) "Psychological Adaptations" promise a modular approach to client diagnosis, one that incorporates client assets and their complaints into a treatment approach, and views complaints as a product of both the client's particular set of mental adaptations as well as his/her setting. An "Adaptations" approach has a greater promise of theoretical and applied links to proximal sciences such as biology, anthropology, and psychology. It also promises great power for understanding individual development; however, it must gain more systematic empirical support for its content before either promise is kept. One contribution of an evolutionary model is that of recognizing pathology as sometimes being an adaptive response -- or an exaggeration of one -- that is in a nonsupportive niche. Assessment of the client's other talents as well as his environment become more important steps in forming treatment alliances and supplying temporally durable assistance. 8) There are barriers to changing anything. The current DSM represents a substantial financial and administrative apparatus, a growth that arose from research investment and funding (health insurance) needs. Those needs continue and should be respected, apart from considerations of client services. There is an army of professions and professionals whose livelihood and (more importantly) prestige depend on the current system. An alternative system might well have to be developed outside of established psychiatry. Alternate contributions were touched lightly: Familial traits are probably important beyond that of finding comparable diagnoses for different members within a family tree. Identical mannerisms and habits have been noted often for twins reared apart. It's unlikely that special genetic laws restrict these phenomena to twins. Thus, interview parents & grandparents of details of behavior, not just their mental health diagnoses or temperaments. Executive Functions ... their contributions to pathology and for prognosis are probably unappreciated, regardless of syndrome. Intact EFs should predict better treatment compliance, higher levels of insight, less impulsive behavior, greater success by the client in solving their own problems, and greater aptitude for inhibiting or magnifying affective response. Complexity models of psychopathology (discussed further Thurs. night "Getting the Client to 'Maybe'") draw upon an analysis of the client's social, financial, and environmental setting to discover factors that stabilize or destabilize him or her. It is suggested that rapid changes in behavior represent developmental immaturity, trauma, or genetic impairment in the specific behaviors that exhibit rapid changes of intensity, direction, or duration. From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 28-AUG-1998 08:43:44.02 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Red Fox Scat On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:02:27 Donna Reynolds of the Lindsay Wildlife Museum wrote: > > Yowsa! Me thinks the gentleman doth protest too much ;O) I think that you will find that there is a strong body of support among persons on this discussion group for what I said in my last message. I also think the majority of Applied Ethologists for too many years have heard all they wish to hear about the "ignorance of sheep" and other such statements directed toward domestic animals. The Applied Ethology Discussion Group is not a good place to post such statements. Comments that demean domestic animals are highly insulting to a number of members of this group. My original posting about your comments did not mention your name or your posting (only your citation of Lopez's writings). I attempted to avoid directing my comments to you personally. > Barry Lopez is a well-researched author who makes no claims of being a > biologist. If he makes no claim to being _informed_ about biology, then why has he written about wolves, horses, sheep, predation, genetic bases of behavior, etc? And if Lopez is only a writer and not a biologist and was being cited by you simply because of his contribution to prose and literature, then the incorrect biological statements he made should have been identified by the person making the original posting. > > There are numerous likely contributing environmental factors ... > Then please, share these perspectives with us. This is indeed the > right place to do just that. This is indeed _not_ the place to attempt to teach a course on Behavior. If you wish to enroll in my class, you will have to pay tuition the same as other students. Otherwise, there are numerous books written on the topic - by persons whose education is in biology. > Wild sheep are surely better adapted to surviving a predator's attacks > than are domestic sheep. So what!? "Domesticated humans" are less able to survive an attack by a predator than was early Homo sapien. Men are better able to survive an attack than are women. Aboriginal humans are better able to survive than are urban humans. Etc. Etc. But so what? Are those individuals who are less able to survive an attack by a predator more "ignorant"? Is one group of greater "value" than the other because it is more likely to survive an attack by a predator? The statement by Lopez that sheep were "ignorant" relative to the "sacred" dance of death performed by the wolf was highly value laden. He was demeaning sheep and raising wolves to the level of having almost some godlike status as an animal. I think that you will find that on this Discussion Group there are many subscribers who are scientists and whose research animals are chickens, pigs, cattle, sheep, horses, etc. Generally, these researchers do not appreciate having their research subjects identified as being "ignorant." And if domestic animals lack an appreciation for life as was implied by Lopez (and apparently you as well), then the whole topic of Animal Welfare becomes redundant - because domestic animals in their ignorance "don't care" what happens to them! And I most certainly do not think that this is the case. > > (Hmmmm...in my urban neighborhood young gunshot victims suffer the > consequences of a total lack of a concept of death in this culture > everyday. The above statement reminds me very much of General Westmoreland's highly inflammatory statement(made in the 1960's during the Vietnam War) that Vietnamese people do not value life as much as do Americans. Is the above statement meant to imply that there has been genetic selection for "lack of appreciation of life" among the urban-dwellers or some other group of Americans? I don't think so and I absolutely and most vigorously would disagree with any statement implying that "urban people" are somehow genetically different in their concept of death. The fact that there are higher rates of homicide under different environmental circumstances among humans only makes _my_ point; domestic animals differ from wild animals in behavior more as a consequence of environment and relatively not so much as a consequence of genetics. > But to bring this human behavior into the mix can only muddy the > conversation......Can we stick to the critters?) Why should non-human animals be called critters? Is it to create a category that excludes humans? I usually hear the slang term "critters" more as a reference to wild animals. Are domestic animals also critters? If only wild animals are "critters," then discussion of "critters" is of only limited importance to this group. If your interests only include wildlife, then you should in fact exclude humans - for we humans are domestic animals. And, we are not "critters." But in discussions of science, I generally would never separate humans out of the general category of animals. We are are mammals - and to be specific, domestic mammals. And my interests are primarily about domestic animals. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 28-AUG-1998 10:54:13.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Acclimatisation of Horses: The Parthian Disaster. Dear All (especially those interested in Horses) Back in January I wrote a synopsis of a historical paper on the possible link between the defeat of Crassus and Roman Army and the performance of Gallic horses in Mesopotamia. I had a most helpful response which I will repeat here. I also scoured my horse library for details of historical "horse watering" habits which may be of interest. Dr Ian Christison wrote:- Some background: - Many years ago I knew lots about cattle adaptation to heat - I have studied cold effects on cattle and horses - Nadia Cymbaluk and I have reviewed temperature effects on equine nutrition (Vet Clin N Amer: Equine Practice 6:355) - Neither of us has studied adaptation to high temperature by horses, nor read anything relevant before this reply - We came independently to the following main conclusions and fleshed them out with discussion ONE Water QUANTITY is more important than acclimatization. A horse at light work requires 3-4 liters of water per kilogram of feed. Intense work requires 4.5-5 L/kg. At 38 C (100 F) 8 L/kg may be needed. Therefore the daily water requirement may be increased three- to four-fold. Under conditions of intense temperature and exercise, access to unlimited water might be necessary several (many?) times per day to maintain thermostability. TWO Acclimatization is mostly achieved in 10-20 days in cattle, rats and man. The horses brought from France in winter would have been constantly adapting en route to increasing temperatures. If they had a week in Mesopotamia they should have been thermally adapted if water was readily available. However, prolonged periods of 95 F would be fine, but well above 100 F only for brief exposure (I guess). THREE Adaptation for athletic performance is also necessary. Depending on how hurriedly the horses were brought from France they may have arrived fit to walk but not to perform at high intensity--neither fast and furious nor long and hard. Athletic adaptation would take several/many weeks. Good cardiovascular fitness would be very helpful for thermal adaptation. Sudden demands for strenuous output might be a killer for unfit animals already barely coping with thermal stress (especially during battle when access to water would be limited). The Olympic horses went to Athens in a high level of athletic capability (presumably) and received lots of care such as topical water and mist sprays FOUR Dietary salt may have been inadequate because of the sweat loss despite improved salt retention by the acclimatized sweat tubules. I hope that these comments are of interest. Good fortune with your project, Iain Christison ******************* Dr. Iain Christison Animal and Poultry Science University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon S7N 5B5, Canada iain.christison@usask.ca My Reply Watering Horses: Historical Practices Very many thanks for you excellent reply. What you say accords with the Army's view during the Mesopotamian campaigns in 1917 against the Turks. Water is the key. The temperatures around Carrhae (Harran) could have been well in excess of 100 and the retreating oxen and remounts of the Saka had already visited the tiny Belissus stream. But I can now write a balanced account which will be new to Classicists. Columella writes ... we conduct the herd at suitable times to their stable, to their watering-place and to exercise... The Roman preoccupation with keeping the hooves dry by boarding the floors or carefully cleaning the ground and laying chaff over it would have deterred them from watering in the stables. Columella VI xxx 1-4 I have the British Army animal Husbandry manuals of 1908 and 1933 the ration is 5 to 15 gallons per day (an average 8) according to work and heat. (not weight) The periods of watering seem to be the standard twice daily in the cool and not working but with the expectation that grazing is allowed. In work especially when weather is warm, four times daily should be the rule. (the bet is hedged with the remark that three times a day is a average number. The text goes on to say ... "Horses should not be watered for at least an hour after feeding, but they may be allowed to drink freely whilst at work, even though sweating. If brought in hot they may be watered immediately but should be kept moving until cooled down. The idea that horses should not be allowed to drink very cold water is a fallacy. The cab-horse drank ice-cold water in the winter, after working hard, and stood still in the streets without ill effects. Animal Management, 1933, H.M.S.O (3 shillings and 6 pence) Interestingly the Manual of Horsemastership, Equitation and Animal Transport 1937, H.M.S.O (2s 6p) page 2 had increased the rate ".. 5 to 15 gallons a day, and , under normal conditions, should be watered FOUR times a day. In hot weather horses should be watered MORE often. ....on the march every opportunity should be taken to water horses especially on hot days. (my capitals). The trend is upward ! Captain Horace Hayes, Training and Horse Management in India, Thacker, Spink & Co Calcutta. says (p. 66) In the stable, I think the best system is to allow a constant supply of water: a practice which is not only beneficial to "washy" horses that scour easily, to roarers and to broken-winded animals, but is particularly well calculated to prevent and to cure the pernicious habits of crib-biting and wind sucking. My beloved but crumbling copy of The Horse by William Youatt, 1848, London, "If the horse were watered three times a day, and especially in summer, he would often be saved from the sad torture of thirst, and from many a disease. ...there is a prejudice in the minds of many persons against the horse being fairly supplied with water. ....It is a fact unsuspected by those who have not carefully observed the horse, that if he has frequent access to water he will not drink so much in the course of the day, as another will do, who, to cool his parched mouth, swallows s fast as he can, and knows not when to stop. p 472." And finally General Fitzwygram Horses and Stables 1901 p 31 (Longmans, Green & Co.) It has been generally noticed in camps that horses standing in the open air, though well fed on dry food, never drink more than twice and often only once in the day. But in stables it is certain that horses drink readily and are refreshed by being watered at least or four times a day. It is not very difficult to conceive that the difference between the close warm atmosphere of a stable and the cool refreshing air of heaven may sufficiently account for this. Though, for the reasons given above, it is not at all necessary, yet there is no objection to horses having water constantly before them,- provided the water in the trough is wholly drained off and supplied afresh at each stable hour. He sort of embraces the whole gamut ? Robin Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"dancun@hotmail.com" "Daniel Cunningham" 28-AUG-1998 17:14:30.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: hold on a second It seems that the domestic animal discussion is starting to turn a bit adversarial, but I would like to place a couple of comments in the fray. I think everyone would agree that certain behavior patterns diminish or even disappear after long periods of domestication, specifically when heavy selection by humans is consistent and based upon few characteristics. At the same time, other patterns may arise or become exaggerated. Another interesting component of domestication is that it leads to the retention of juvenile characteristics (neoteny). This seems to be a generally accepted notion with a great deal of supporting evidence, and I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject. However, we do not need statements that open the Pandora's box of genetic versus environmental influences upon observed behavior. There is a difference between domesticated, if truly domesticated and not merely tamed, animals and their wild ancestors. Hence the distinction. And although the clearest examples of such differences are based on morphology, the changes in the genetics of the organisms as a result of artificial selection are clearly not exclusive of behavior. On the other hand, domesticated animals are not helpless, and they should not be presented in such a light. The differences between closely related wild animals and domesticated counterparts with respect to survival abilities (foraging, avoidance of predation) are fairly specific to the "species" involved, and general statements concerning the survival abilities of domestic animals versus wild ones are rather simplistic. Now, to put a specific case in the fray, I would like to request information on feral dogs. WHat kind of survival rates do these organisms have with respect to, say, coyotes? Unless I am wrong, aren't feral dog populations quite large in some areas? Don't they take sheep and other livestock? Aren't wolves and coyotes and foxes blamed, at least occasionally, for attacks which may have been perpetrated by feral dogs? These questions are asked in the hopes of developing a more specific discussion. Otherwise, we will probably end up with some sort of veiled name calling. Let's talk turkey people! (No pun intended) Dan Cunningham P.S. - I am new to this group. Greatings to all. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 28-AUG-1998 17:54:54.90 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Red Fox Scat Hello Folks - (this is my response to Rays' response to my musings and is a littler longer than I'd hoped - just to warn you) W. Ray Stricklin wrote: >(snip) I also think the majority of Applied Ethologists for > too many years have heard all they wish to hear about the "ignorance > of sheep" and other such statements directed toward domestic animals. By steering this discussion into grievances of what the masses are or are not saying about domestic animals, we have begun to drop the ball on the original issue at hand.....That original question being: What intiates the surplus attacks of canids on the domestics? And, could these killings be encouraged/discouraged by signals given off by the prey animal? "Ignorance of sheep" may or may not have been the best words for Lopez to choose in explaining his theory, and listers are certainly in their right to point out any troubles with this wording. However, I will maintain that the viewpoint of prey animals somehow offering 'signals' to their predators remains a fascinating idea worth giving some thought. > The Applied Ethology Discussion Group is not a good place to post > such statements. Comments that demean domestic animals are highly > insulting to a number of members of this group. Humble apologies if any sheep or their advocates suffered from the posted words of Lopez. However, I believe it is dangerous business to censor interesting ideas for fear of ruffling feathers. Instead, this forum should continue to operate as a place of exchange for ideas, in hopes all users can reflect on the opinions offered and make up their own minds. I believe that is why this place is described as a 'discussion list'. By the very nature of this medium, the wheel is likely to be reinvented occassionally as time goes on. Topics are bound to repeat themselves, and disagreements are very likely to occur, and therein lies the luxury of the 'delete button'. > > If he makes no claim to being _informed_ about biology, then why has > he written about wolves, horses, sheep, predation, genetic bases of > behavior, etc? And if Lopez is only a writer and not a biologist and > was being cited by you simply because of his contribution to prose > and literature, then the incorrect biological statements he made > should have been identified by the person making the original posting. Sorry, not sure which biological statements from the posting can at this time be proven to be 'incorrect'. I believe the jury is still out as to why surplus killing occurs. Until we know the definitive 'answer', Lopez and others have every right to offer their own perspectives. Indeed, Lopez himself points out the fact that the opinions of indigenous peoples on wild animal behavior have up until only recently been disregarded because of their lack of proper 'schooling.' Finally, we are recognizing the benefits of a keen sense of observation. Valuable information that can offer us new pieces to the puzzles we try to solve will always be available from many different sources, including the poets, the philosophers, and even the fools. (This is now getting into the repeated conversation of 'who gets to be called an expert') > > This is indeed _not_ the place to attempt to teach a course on > Behavior. If you wish to enroll in my class, you will have to pay > tuition the same as other students. Otherwise, there are numerous > books written on the topic - by persons whose education is in biology. Thankfully my ethology work is now applied (through the care and behavoral enrichment of non-releasable raptors and the rehab and release of owls), yet I continue to enjoy learning through forums such as this, and find discussions such as these incredibly valuable. My interest in hearing your opinions was not a request for instruction, but a curious attempt to understand your point of view on surplus killing. A continuation of the discussion, if you will. > > And if domestic animals lack an appreciation for life as was implied > by Lopez (and apparently you as well), then the whole topic of Animal > Welfare becomes redundant - because domestic animals in their > ignorance "don't care" what happens to them! And I most certainly do > not think that this is the case. I do not believe this interpretation and its implications is an accurate assumption on your part. I cannot speak for Lopez, but for myself, I believe domestic animals to be every bit as sentient as the wild and would never consider them disinterested in their own survival. domestic animals differ from wild > animals in behavior more as a consequence of environment and > relatively not so much as a consequence of genetics. That is an interesting perspective that I will have to think about (although at this time do not happen to agree with). > Why should non-human animals be called critters? Is it to create a > category that excludes humans? I usually hear the slang term > "critters" more as a reference to wild animals. 'Critters', to me, is an affectionate term for non-human animals, wild or domestic. An attempt at keeping the discussion on a friendly, conversational tone. Whew! - That all said, I am now more curious than ever to research the whys of surplus killings and examine Lopez's ideas of prey involvement in predator's activities. (In the meantime - it's time to phone my favorite wolf researcher!) Best Regards, Donna Reynolds Lindsay Wildlife Museum Walnut Creek, CA From: IN%"Brian@music-weaver.demon.co.uk" "Brian Robinson" 30-AUG-1998 11:21:06.85 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: The DSM and Evolutionary Psychology: Seminar Notes In message <199808202226_MC2-56C5-79C2@compuserve.com>, James F. Brody writes >EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY AND THE CLASSIFICATION OF MENTAL DISORDERS >Wednesday, July 22, 1998. > >Dylan Evans, M.A., Ph. D. Candidate >Center for the Philosophy of Natural and Social Sciences >London School of Economics >London, U. K., WC2A 2AE > >Notes by Jim Brody, 8/20/98. This was the 2nd in a series of 3 seminars. >Notes for the 3rd, "Complexity Theory: Getting the Client to 'Maybe'" will >be circulated in about a week. RE: Reference above to 3rd seminar on Complexity Theory Please forgive me if - as is almost certainly the case - you all know the site from which I have taken what follows. Hooper Virtual Paleontological Museum (HVPM) http://hannover.park.org/Canada/Museum/lobby.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ COMPLEXITY SCIENCE & BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A new science has emerged in recent years in an attempt to explain the inner "workings" of complex systems.The science of complexity has been applied to various fields of science, economics, and politics to name a few, and is concerned with the fundamental logical properties of the behaviour of non linear and network feedback systems. The problems behind the 'central evolutionary and transformational processes' through which organizations renew themselves have traditionally been addressed by two well established perspectives: (1) strategic choice- a transformational process in which organizations adapt to environmental changes by restructuring themselves in an intentional, rational manner and (2) ecology- an evolutionary process of competitive selection in which whole populations of organisms adapt to environmental change, given that individual organizational adaptation is blocked by institutional inertia and resource specificity. Signifigant differences in terms of predicted outcome notwithstanding, both clearly make the same assumptions about system dynamics: successful systems (i.e. whole biological populations) are driven by negative feedback processes toward predictable states of adaptation to the environment. Thus, one could assume that success "dynamics " have a tendency to acheive equilibrium and therefore stability, regularity, and predictability. These two assumptions , having originated in Newtonian physics and Darwinian evolution are now being challenged at the fundamental level by recent developments in physics, biology and mathematics. These developments in the 'science of complexity' are concerned with the dynamical properties of non linear and network feedback systems. Traditionally, systems have been grouped into one of three categories based on their behaviour. These system categories are: ordered, chaotic and complex. Recent research in evolutionary processes has shown evidence for a system that lies at the edge between chaos and order. This edge of chaos is the focus point for complexity science ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Charles Darwin Darwin's theory of evolution, by means of natural selection, has dominated the way biologists have thought of biological evolution, for the past century. Only in the past decade or two have scientists began to question natural selection as the only factor involved in evolution. Evidence from the science of complexity has shown that evolutionary processes may be a product of complex syematics. Complexity introduction continued Complexity index These studies in complexity science have concluded that in order to produce creative, innovative, continually changeable behaviour (i.e. organismal evolutionary behaviour) systems must operate far from equilibrium where they are driven by negative and positive feedback to paradoxical states of stability and unstability, predictability and unpredictability. The transformational process is one of internal, spontaneous self organization amongst the the agents of a system, provoked by instability and potentially leading to emergent order. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ALTERNATIVE VIEWPOINTS TO SYSTEMIC CHOICE AND ECOLOGY Several viewpoints have been proposed about system dynamics that differ from those above. Contradiction, paradox & non equilibrium: When paradox becomes the central focus, organizations are viewed as non equilibrium systems with dynamics that are essentially disordered, developing through political processes in a dialectical manner, displaying one crisis afer another. Spontaneous self organization & creative destruction: In this view, organizations are assumed to be systems, "parts" of larger environmental systems. They evolve through a process of creative destruction and spontaneous self organization. These evolving systems are so complex that agents within them cannot intend their long term futures. These futures emerge unpredictably from the interactions between agents in conditions of non equilibrium and disorder. Irregularity and disorder as a systemic property: Irregularity and disorder may occur due to the nature of the system, i.e. indviduals within the system are allowed to disrupt the institution. This circular feedback nature of choice, action, and outcome can lead to complex connection between cause and effect. Positive feedback: Systems dynamicists have demonstrated that non linear and positive feedback loops are fundamental properties of organizational life and that behavioural patterns can emerge without being intended and in fact often emerge contrary to intention, producing unexpected and counter intuitive outcomes. Bounded instability (deterministic laws) Complexity index COMPLEXITY AS SEEN IN EVOLUTION ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The two main areas that define evolution are extinction and speciation. A central theme of non linear evolutionary theories which contrasts catastrophic theories of extinction and speciation is that ecosystems are deterministic, due to feedback that arises from ecological cross linking. Critical systems which are highly organized (i.e. deterministic) owe their "criticality" to complex, generally non linear interactions between variables. An often used metaphor to desrcribe self-organized criticality was coined by physicist Per Bak. He asked one to consider a tabletop onto which sand is droppped at a uniform rate. As sand piles up, it begins to slide off the edges of the table . The system eventually reaches a steady rate at which the mean rate of dropping sand onto the pile equals the mean rate at which sand falls off the edges. At this stage, the slopes from the peak to edges of the table, are near the critical resting angle for the sand. Bak asks "if one adds a single grain of sand to the pile, at a random location thereby creating an avalanche, what will the distribution of avalanche sizes be?". He finds a characteristic power law distribution (a typical complexity signature) relating the frequencies & sizes of avalanches with many small ones and few large ones. He argues that this distribution is characteristic of a wide range of phenomenon, including, earthquakes. HOW DOES THIS SANDPILE METAPHOR , REPRESENTING SELF - ORGANIZED CRITICALITY, RELATE TO EXTINCTION AND SPECIATION EVENTS, & THUS BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION ??? CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT !!! Complexity index ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SOME FINAL THOUGHTS ON COMPLEXITY: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The underlying point to be extrapolated from this data is that are ample cues indicating complex behaviour in biological evolutionary processes, but not clear-cut proof. In the words of Stuart Kauffman, a leading expert and researcher of complexity science: "much of the order seen in organisms is precisely the spontaneous order in the systems of which we are composed . Such order has beauty and elegance, casting an image of permanence and underlying law over biology. Evolution is not just chance caught on the wing. It is not just a tinkering of the ad hoc, of bricolage, of contraption. It is emergent order harnessed and honed by selection. Complexity index ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ END QUOTE FROM WEBSITE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Best wishes Brian -- Brian Robinson Milton Keynes England From: IN%"steppe@ou.edu" "Steppe" 31-AUG-1998 00:32:05.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "animal behavior" CC: Subj: research project Hi all, I'm interested in doing a research project on horses for an undergraduate lab course in Animal Behavior. I have access to a barn with about twenty horses and several pastures and stalls. I'd greatly welcome any suggestions for research topics. The data would have to be collected within about six weeks, and I'm fairly limited in how much I can manipulate their environment (i.e. can't do anything that would risk the health of any of the horses). I've noticed that horses need to be exposed to a new stimulus from both "sides" before they no longer spook at it. For instance, when I led a three month old foal around a jump he took a while to accept it and walk calmly, but when I turned him around and walked him in circles around the jump in the opposite direction, he was nervous all over again. Anybody know if this behavior might be similar to birds who store nuts in the cavities of tree branches, and must observe the food's location with both eyes to accurately relocate it? (experiment showed that if you allow a bird with one eye covered to hide a nut, and some time later return the bird to that location with the opposite eye covered, the bird cannot find the nut) Anyhow, I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions, either on this research topic or any others that might occur to anyone. ---steppe From: IN%"Valentina.Ferrante@unimi.it" "Valentina Ferrante" 31-AUG-1998 01:28:38.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: rabbit's corticosterone Dear all, I'm an Italian researcher in applaied ethology and at this moment my interest is on welfare of rabbit and pultry at different cage density or at different number of animals per cage. One of the variables I would like to test is corticosterone levels as an indicator of cronic stress. I would like to know if it is possible to have a kit to test this hormon or if there is in Europe a laboratory who test it. Thank you in advance for any information Best regards Valentina Ferrante _______________________________________________________________ Valentina Ferrante Istituto di Zootecnica Facolt=E0 di Medicina Veterinaria Via Celoria, 10 20133 Milano tel 0039-2-2369433 fax 0039-2-70602227 ________________________________________________________________ From: IN%"golden@cia.com.au" "Golden" 31-AUG-1998 01:51:26.12 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: Fw: wolves & sheep This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_mDGOgZN/I+uH76s7Xa7lgg) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello all,=20 I am new to the list & a humble behaviour based dog trainer = but felt obliged to opine on a favorite subject - sheep. =20 I observed the behaviour of some old fashioned semi = domesticated, & therefore, I suppose, *wildish* sheep while strolling = round castles in the UK last year, trying to imagine a time when = chivalry existed. Anyway, these animals possessed suprisingly low = threshold startle responses, or alternatively, huge critical distances & = strong escape responses. If confronted, they were happy to take me on, = so I only did it once.=20 =20 At home I have a sheep dog & sheep & am currently consumed = by ovine behaviour. As a Jillaroo I was less than impressed by ovine = logic. As a dogtrainer I'm reliably informed by sheep farmers from = Victoria, Australia to Snowdonia in Wales they're mighty intelligent & I = should respect 'em. So I'm on a quest, the holy grail being to know = sufficient about ovine behaviour to win every sheep dog trial in town. = But I digress... =20 The *wild* animals observed were the "Porsches" of the ovine = world; sleek lines, low slung, light weight, handled well, 0 - 100 in = 2.3 secs. The animals my dog & I see, ie the domesticated version, = whatever breed that might be, are more akin to the family station wagon = - room for the kids & shopping in the back, flat spot in the = accelerator, brakes aren't bad & but not serviced all that often. =20 What I'm trying to say is I believe we've bred these animals = a) for bodies that maximise wool and/ or meat outputs at the cost of = speed, manouverability & reactivity & b) (more importantly when it comes = to wolves) to be worked by dogs, perferably dog, since it's cheaper, & = man, both of which would be hard pushed to keep up with the wild version = in it's own terrain. I wouldn't want to face one in a yard for that = matter. In addition, we start working our domestic ovines early in their = lives to habituate them to the presence & behaviours of the trusty sheep = dog, ie, don't butt my prize mutt, move quietly away from it & take the = path of least resistance. Well, that's what we do in Australia, where a = good working sheep dog is worth a Kings ransom & any animal that = threatens said sheep dog won't make it to breeding age, at least intact. = =20 Any self respecting wolf confronted with such a slow moving = & comparitively non reactive lamb chop may find itself possesed of = sufficient excess energy & fully charged prey drive, to spend as long as = it takes expending the excesses bringing down as many of the beggars as = it can get it's jaws around. In more natural circumstances our wolf = would probably have only the one opportunity to procure dinner & have to = work hard for a successful outcome, resulting in something approaching = exhaustion I would think. =20 Domestic sheep on the other hand, aren't so much ignorant of = impending injury or death, I believe, as exercising fully the repertoire = of behaviours our breeding practises, physical & temperament = modification & training with dogs have endowed them with. None of which = equips them to deal with a wild predator or even a small pack of pets = out on overnight killing spree. =20 At least that's what I think when I watch my wethers = undertake their full behavioural repertoire - including body slams that = would leave me coughing & my sheepdog petrified for all time - when = pursued by my 17 Ib whippet, eyes glazed, in full prey drive who will = not, but for a command from me (amazingly) leave them be despite the = pain they inflict upon him. =20 Cheers, Anita Goulding Sydney Australia > The statement below attributed to Barry Lopez in "Of = Wolves and Men" > is a good example of what I consider to be the ignorance = about and > lack of respect for domestic animals by too many persons = who credited > as being knowledgeable about animal biology. --Boundary_(ID_mDGOgZN/I+uH76s7Xa7lgg) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,
I am new to the list & a humble = behaviour=20 based dog trainer but felt obliged to opine on a favorite = subject -=20 sheep.
 
I observed the behaviour of some old = fashioned=20 semi domesticated, & therefore, I suppose, *wildish* = sheep while=20 strolling round castles in the UK last year, trying to = imagine a=20 time when chivalry existed. Anyway, these animals possessed=20 suprisingly low threshold startle responses, or = alternatively, huge=20 critical distances & strong escape responses. If = confronted,=20 they were happy to take me on, so I only did it=20 once. 
 
At home I have a sheep dog & sheep = & am=20 currently consumed by ovine behaviour. As a Jillaroo I was = less than=20 impressed by ovine logic. As a dogtrainer I'm reliably = informed by=20 sheep farmers from Victoria, Australia to Snowdonia in Wales = they're=20 mighty intelligent & I should respect 'em. So I'm on a = quest,=20 the holy grail being to know sufficient about ovine = behaviour to win=20 every sheep dog trial in town. But I digress...
 
The *wild* animals observed were the=20 "Porsches" of the ovine world; sleek lines, low = slung,=20 light weight, handled well, 0 - 100 in 2.3 secs. The animals = my dog=20 & I see, ie the domesticated version, whatever breed = that might=20 be, are more akin to the family station wagon - room for the = kids=20 & shopping in the back, flat spot in the accelerator, = brakes=20 aren't bad & but not serviced all that = often.
 
What I'm trying to say is I believe = we've bred=20 these animals  a) for bodies that maximise wool and/ or = meat=20 outputs at the cost of speed, manouverability & = reactivity &=20 b) (more importantly when it comes to wolves) to be worked = by dogs,=20 perferably dog, since it's cheaper, & man, both of which = would=20 be hard pushed to keep up with the wild version in it's own = terrain.=20 I wouldn't want to face one in a yard for that matter. In = addition,=20 we start working our domestic ovines early in their lives to = habituate them to the presence & behaviours of the = trusty sheep=20 dog, ie, don't butt my prize mutt, move quietly away from it = &=20 take the path of least resistance. Well, that's  what = we do in=20 Australia, where a good working sheep dog is worth a Kings = ransom=20 & any animal that threatens said sheep dog won't make it = to=20 breeding age, at least intact.
 
Any self respecting wolf confronted with = such a=20 slow moving & comparitively non reactive lamb chop may = find=20 itself possesed of sufficient excess energy & fully = charged prey=20 drive, to spend as long as it takes expending the excesses = bringing=20 down as many of the beggars as it can get it's jaws around. = In more=20 natural circumstances our wolf would probably have only the = one=20 opportunity to procure dinner & have to work hard for a=20 successful outcome, resulting in something approaching = exhaustion I=20 would think.
 
Domestic sheep on the other hand, aren't = so much=20 ignorant of impending injury or death, I believe, as = exercising=20 fully the repertoire of behaviours our breeding practises, = physical=20 & temperament modification & training with dogs have = endowed=20 them with. None of which equips them to deal with a wild = predator or=20 even a small pack of pets out on overnight killing=20 spree.
 
At least that's what I think when I = watch my=20 wethers undertake their full behavioural repertoire - = including body=20 slams that would leave me coughing & my sheepdog = petrified for=20 all time -  when pursued by my 17 Ib whippet, eyes = glazed, in=20 full prey drive who will not, but for a command from me = (amazingly)=20 leave them be despite the pain they inflict upon = him.
 
Cheers,
Anita Goulding
Sydney Australia
> The statement below attributed to Barry Lopez in = "Of=20 Wolves and Men"
> is a good example of what I = consider to=20 be the ignorance about and
> lack of respect for = domestic=20 animals by too many persons who credited
> as being=20 knowledgeable about animal=20 biology.
--Boundary_(ID_mDGOgZN/I+uH76s7Xa7lgg)-- From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 31-AUG-1998 06:41:01.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Daniel's posting In keeping with a suggestion by Donna to discuss things as a group and sharing ideas, (rather than chatting on a one-to-one always), I'd like to respond to a few of the points made by Daniel Cunningham! Dan: > retention of juvenile characteristics (neoteny). This seems to be a > generally accepted notion with a great deal of supporting evidence, and > I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject. Many animals in their natural habitats become fully independent only when mom walks away (sometimes despite their efforts to look for her or call to her). Mom usually does this when her offspring can support themselves. When we keep animals in captivity (domesticated or otherwise), we become the "mom constant" and there is no need for independent adulthood. > genetic versus environmental influences upon observed behavior. There > is a difference between domesticated, if truly domesticated and not > merely tamed, animals and their wild ancestors. Dan, can you give us definitions for domesticated, wild and tame? Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 --IAA28137.904567021/wright.aps.uoguelph.ca-- dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 31-AUG-1998 07:09:48.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: may I point out Hopefully, to add a bit of humour to the discussions: I think we have an excellent demonstration of a domesticated animals (Ray) ability to - well, think of the description of the sheep attack on its owner. Yes, not all domesticated animals lose some fundamental behavioural responses. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"jvthungen@central.inta.gov.ar" "Julieta Von Thungen" 31-AUG-1998 08:00:04.66 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Welcome to APPLIED-ETHOLOGY Hello everybody: As this is my first intervention in this media, I would like to present myself. Just at the moment when you are in the middle of this domestication discussion. I am working with guanacos in semicaptivity (Lama guanicoe). We have hand raised a group of wild guanacos from different wild origins and now we have set them back as a family. So we are doing some observations and so on. Julieta von Th=FCngen INTA Bariloche cc 277 8400 Bariloche Rio Negro Argentina correo electr=F3nico: jvthungen@central.inta.gov.ar Fax:0944 24991 From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 31-AUG-1998 09:01:20.30 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Dr. B. Malcom Willis Can anyone please supply an e-mail address for Dr. B.Malcom Willis, last known address : Department of Animal Breeding and Genetics, Faculty of Agriculture, University upon Thyne. UK. Thank you in anticipation. Glynne Anderson k9acad@iafrica.com From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 31-AUG-1998 09:48:59.79 To: IN%"dancun@hotmail.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: hold on a second -REPONSE >>> Daniel Cunningham 28/08/ 19h14 >>>It seems that the domestic animal discussion is starting to turn a bit adversarial, >>> which makes it interesting >>>I think everyone would agree that certain behavior patterns diminish or even disappear after long periods of domestication,>>> Certainly some behaviour patterns may become more difficult to elicit, but I am not certain if there are any cases where behaviour patterns have actually disappeared. I am told that white leghorn chickens don't become broody. Is this true? Even where there are obvious differences between domestic animals and wild ancestors, it is difficult to separate out the effects of changed developmental environment from genetic changes. >>>Another interesting component of domestication is that it leads to the retention of juvenile characteristics (neoteny). This seems to be a generally accepted notion with a great deal of supporting evidence,>>> I had understood that neoteny may explain some characteristics of domestic dogs but that there is little or no evidence for neoteny in other domestic animals. Perhaps even the reverse. Most farm animals reach sexual maturity considerably earlier than wild species. Does anybody know if this is true for domestic dogs? Jeff Rushen From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "Margaret (Peggy) Shunick" 31-AUG-1998 10:24:31.14 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen", IN%"dancun@hotmail.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: hold on a second -REPONSE Hi Jeff, My own thinking regarding this subject has been heavily influenced by these references: Coppinger, R. P., & Smith, C. K. (1983). The domestication of evolution. Environmental Conservation 10(4), 283-292. Coppinger, R. P., & Smith, C. K. (1989). A model for understanding the evolution of mammalian behavior. In H. Genoways (Ed.) Current Mammalogy. NY: Plenum. [note: A "dense read" but worth it!] > characteristics of domestic dogs but that there is little or no > evidence for neoteny in other domestic animals. Perhaps > even the reverse. Most farm animals reach sexual maturity > considerably earlier than wild species. Does anybody know > if this is true for domestic dogs? > > Jeff Rushen Enjoy! Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick, BA, BA, MS (Animals and Public Policy) 1022 Grizzly Mountain Road Somewhere near Joe's SmokeRing, Evaro, MT 59808-9791 (406) 726-3342 e-mail: arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 31-AUG-1998 12:36:50.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: hold on a second -REPONSE Dear Jeff: > where behaviour patterns have actually disappeared. I am > told that white leghorn chickens don't become broody. Is this > true? I just finished an intensive study of laying behaviour in white leghorn chickens. While some did not show broody behaviour, many hens did show broody behaviour and appeared stressed when unable to do so. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 31-AUG-1998 12:48:24.81 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"dancun@hotmail.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: hold on a second -REPONSE On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:32:55 -0400 Jeff Rushen wrote: > >>>Another interesting component of domestication is that it > leads to the retention of juvenile characteristics (neoteny). > This seems to be a generally accepted notion with a great > deal of supporting evidence,>>> > > I had understood that neoteny may explain some > characteristics of domestic dogs but that there is little or no > evidence for neoteny in other domestic animals. Perhaps > even the reverse. Most farm animals reach sexual maturity > considerably earlier than wild species. Neoteny is not necessarily related to the actual age for the expression of a trait. The definition of neoteny typically has to do with the "process whereby some few traits of a given kind of organism have their ontogenic development slowed down relative to the rest of the organism during the evolution of the lineage." (Salthe, 1972; Evolutionary Biology.) Thus, actual age of puberty is not necessarily an indicator of neoteny. Traits such as extended growth (typically an infantile or juvenile trait) that through artificial selection have been extended into latter stages of development for many food animals may, however, be examples of neoteny. Regarding behavioral neoteny, in Geist's work (Mountain Sheep; A Study in Behavior and Evolution, 1971) is presented some of the only data that I am aware regarding the extension of juvenile sexual behavior into adult stages. And Geist's work does not involve domestic sheep. Rather, his work shows that as wild sheep spread around the world from Southern Asia, they gradually became more neotenized. Giest gives considerable emphasis to horn size. He writes: "Larger horns are due to longer or more intense growth. Growth, however, is typical of juveniles... Larger horn size can hence be achieved by making the rams more "juvenile" or neotenic, that is, by intensifying or enlarging the physiological mechanisms which keep the animal young." Regarding behavioral neoteny, Geist writes: "Rams from the more advanced races in evolution (Geist's phrase for those greater separated in time and distance from the original source of sheep) should be the more neotenic and should hence be more like lambs or juveniles in their behavior than adult rams of more primitive races... If the neoteny hypothesis is valid the following should be found: since it was shown that as they mature (Rocky Mountain rams compared to more primitive) rams 1) display their horns more frequently, 2) kick subordinate more frequently with their front leg, 3) use fewer butts and 4) fewer mounts against subordinates, 5) act more "bravely" by approaching equal-size opponents more frequently in horn display." Geist presents tabular data on these traits and states, "These predictions are fulfilled." I think that it is quite possible that there are numerous examples of neotenized behavioral traits in domestic animals other than dogs. As only one example, what Geist says about wild sheep, I think may also be true for domestic sheep. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" 31-AUG-1998 19:08:32.15 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: hold on a second -REPONSE Jeff said: >I had understood that neoteny may explain some >characteristics of domestic dogs but that there is little or no >evidence for neoteny in other domestic animals. Perhaps >even the reverse. Most farm animals reach sexual maturity >considerably earlier than wild species. Does anybody know >if this is true for domestic dogs? > >Jeff Rushen Jeff, et. al., The following comments relate only to canine social behavioral maturation, not to species or breed stereotypic behavior, as might be attributed to the low threshholds for chasing in herding breeds. When neotony is used to describe _behavioral-maturational_ characteristics, I think we can carry to term to extremes. We deal constantly with adult (sexually and physically mature, usually over 6-9 months of age) problem [and non-problem] dogs who display behavior more typical of 5-12 week old puppies. However, when we influence owners to help these dogs to _grow up_, by giving their dogs competent leadership and by filling the dogs' needs to _function_ cohesively within the human group, the dogs emotional(and hence, behavioral) maturation toward adult levels progresses with remarkable speed. In other words, when it comes to canis familiaris, the gentic capacity to mature behaviorally is extant, but open to environmental influences. I still like Hebb's comment that (roughly) behavior is determined 100 percent by genetics and 100 percent by the environment. Bill Campbell From: IN%"KAKerby@aol.com" 31-AUG-1998 20:55:05.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Various observations OK, some interesting discussion threads going on here and I'd like to put in my two cents' worth: Re. neoteny: In my workings with zoo animals, which as I understand the term would not be considered domesticated, I've noticed some rather interesting examples of physical maturation combined with behavioral neoteny. One would think that as the body matured, the mind would as well, but that is not always the case. I suspect that part of it is based on the previously expressed idea that human involvement as caretakers may remove the forced independence that these animals would experience in the wild, and perhaps even promote a long- term need for parental-type care. Another part may be a certain extent of 'behavioral plasticity' which allows these animals to 'take advantage' of a supportive environment. It would often be in an individual's best interest to capitalize on any caretaker, thus avoiding having to provide for themselves, whether in captivity or in the wild. There are many examples of mother-infant bonds in wild groups of social animals, where the youngster was not driven off by the mother for whatever reason, and continued nursing far beyond species norms, even as the youngster began foraging for him/herself. Perhaps it's a combination of 'breeding adulthood out of them', as well as them making the best of the environment that they're in. Re. canid killing sprees: I'd be interested to know if this behavioral pattern extends to other groups. I suspect that if we looked, we'd find examples of this in felines, mustelidae and marine mammals, to name a few. Re. domestic vs. wild intelligence: I have done some of my work with domesticated animals, and I certainly don't think of them as any less intelligent than their wild counterparts. I'd suggest that their intelligence has been 'pointed' in different directions. A wild group of horses can be stopped dead in their tracks by a wire fence, and it may never occur to them to look for a gate. That same group of horses, however, knows how to hide in the hollows during a snowstorm to avoid the wet and cold. Their domestic counterparts could open a 'locked' gate in 30 seconds flat, yet will stand out in the rain and snow, shivering. Neither is less intelligent than the other; they've just been exposed to environments that demanded different things. Re the predator/prey dance: As a student of self-defense, on of the first things I was taught was how to not look like a victim. Very subtle body language cues can make the difference between being hassled or being left alone, or a situation being resolved peacefully or escalated to extreme violence. And this is in human beings, whose conscious awareness of body language could be described as somewhat lacking. If we look, then, to animals for whom body language is their main vehicle for conveying messages and intent, I would be extremely surprised to find that such cues aren't involved. And as I said above, it may be that the domesticated animals have turned their gray matter towards issues that are more common in their immediate environment, such as how to turn that feed trough over, instead of how to avoid looking like lunch. And one final note on who is training whom: my cats have just announced that it is, in fact, dinner time. I look forward to seeing continued discussion on all these fronts. Take care all.