Anyway, I am offering the citations of my favorite 4 articles (sorry I don't have the equipment that would allow me to send the actual articles). I have found these articles very useful, in no small part because they provide an historical perspective and (I think) a reasonable hypothesis of why the creationist (and some others) are waging this fight. Knowing one's opponents' true motives is vital to being successful here. (Of course, for the members of the creationist group that are just plain stupid, there isn't much hope. Still, our arguments will be more effective I think if we can shape them to address the underlying fears.) Personally, I would prefer that scientists of all disciplines just take this fight over so I could stay home and read a good book. I detest public speaking, but I have done it for our children.
Salazar, David M. "Oppressed by Evolution." Discover, March 1998, pp. 78-83.
Moss, Robert. "The Problem With Evolution: Where Have We Gone Wrong?" The Scientist, October 13, 1997, p. 7.
Schmidt, Karen. "Creationists Evolve New Strategy." Science, July 26, 1996, pp. 420-422.
Singleton, Rivers Jr. "Creationists Versus Evolution: A Paradigm of Science and Society Interaction." Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, 30(3), Spring 1987, pp.324-344.
Cheers.
Rayenna Rhys
Reference Librarian
Flad & Associates
Madison, WI
--Boundary_(ID_jP8AO46uuHhE7C83Aa3Z/w)--
From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 18-AUG-1999 11:47:30.26
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group"
CC: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "wattsjon@duke.usask.ca", IN%"rayenna_rhys@flad.com" "'Rayenna Rhys'"
Subj: RE: Scopes Revisited
I remember skippering a yacht to Turkey with a retired
couple among the crew. They had been teachers in
Freetown, Sierra Leone most of their lives. They were
fundamentalist missionary types and it was startling
to discover (over a period of a month) the implacable
intolerance of such Christian folk.
The amount of anger and even fear they can evoke
relatively stable societies such as the good teaching
folk of scientific education mirrors much more serious
activities elsewhere in the world.
Violent civil disorder is currently raging in Indonesia, India
and China and Christian zealots are apparently at the heart
of the mischief.
My childhood perceptions of the Turks was coloured by
lurid accounts of Armenian massacre in 1895. My
grandparents played host to a survivor who had
found refuge in London, His body was apparently
a mess of sabre cuts. He would never sit in any room
with his back to the door.
I discovered recently that it was fundamentalist Christians
arriving amongst the peaceable Armenians and singing
"Onward Christian soldiers" that alarmed the Ottomans
into thinking a Balkan style revolution was upon them.
Bitterness, rumour and panic turned the populace
into crazed butchers.
I did not throw my missionaries overboard. I think I was
used to the rantings about Evolution that had to
be endured by a Sixth Form biology student
to gain admittance to the Methodist
Youth Club and its excellent facilities.
Robin
see The Lords of the Horizons - A History of the Ottoman
Empire by Jason Goodwin, Henry Holt. 1998
-----Original Message-----
From: Rayenna Rhys [SMTP:rayenna_rhys@flad.com]
Sent: 18 August 1999 14:06
To: wattsjon@duke.usask.ca
Cc: Applied Ethology Discussion Group
Subject: Scopes Revisited
As a parent with no scientific background, I can tell you I find
creationists and the power they have obtained disturbing and extremely
destructive. However, the Kansas ruling is not the first and hardly an
isolated incident. Over the years (that these battles have become
newsworthy so I began to pay attention to them), I have collected
articles to help prepare me for the fight. I would hope that more of
you than just Janice will become actively involved in this mess, but the
exhausting aspect of it is that the creationists don't go away after one
skirmish. We don't "win" after one favorable school board meeting--they
come back and come back and come back and come back. (I wonder
sometimes how they can possibly have so much time to spare.)
Anyway, I am offering the citations of my favorite 4 articles (sorry I
don't have the equipment that would allow me to send the actual
articles). I have found these articles very useful, in no small part
because they provide an historical perspective and (I think) a
reasonable hypothesis of why the creationist (and some others) are
waging this fight. Knowing one's opponents' true motives is vital to
being successful here. (Of course, for the members of the creationist
group that are just plain stupid, there isn't much hope. Still, our
arguments will be more effective I think if we can shape them to address
the underlying fears.) Personally, I would prefer that scientists of
all disciplines just take this fight over so I could stay home and read
a good book. I detest public speaking, but I have done it for our
children.
Salazar, David M. "Oppressed by Evolution." Discover, March 1998, pp.
78-83.
Moss, Robert. "The Problem With Evolution: Where Have We Gone Wrong?"
The Scientist, October 13, 1997, p. 7.
Schmidt, Karen. "Creationists Evolve New Strategy." Science, July 26,
1996, pp. 420-422.
Singleton, Rivers Jr. "Creationists Versus Evolution: A Paradigm of
Science and Society Interaction." Perspectives in Biology and Medicine,
30(3), Spring 1987, pp.324-344.
Cheers.
Rayenna Rhys
Reference Librarian
Flad & Associates
Madison, WI
<< File: ATT00000.htm >>
From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" "G. F. Barbato" 18-AUG-1999 14:02:56.47
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology Discussion Group'"
CC:
Subj: RE: Scopes Revisited
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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speaking of references:
one of the most disturbing articles i read was from this past sunday's
NYTimes, Week in Review section.
http://www.nytimes.com/library/review/081599evolution-creation-review.html
(available til saturday 8/21/99 on internet)
here is a columnist with the lead headline, who not only discounts evolution
as fact, but also question whether or not atoms are 'factual', since noone
can see them.
how sad to see the sorry state of scientific literacy in the US in print.
much like the wicked witch of the west, i find myself not believing in
Kansas ...
btw -- at the risk of dating myself (once again), my all-time favorite
creation discussion was published by Jack Hailman in 1982 (BioScience
32:129-130). In a reported encounter with a revivalist preacher, Jack had
the opportunity to ask the fateful question, 'Which one?' to the simple
statement 'I believe in the literal biblical account of creation.'
(admittedly paraphrased.... Jack is much more eloquent)
personally, i like the thought of riding the back of a turtle.... : )
later,
guy
-----Original Message-----
From: Rayenna Rhys [mailto:rayenna_rhys@flad.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 9:06 AM
To: wattsjon@duke.usask.ca
Cc: Applied Ethology Discussion Group
Subject: Scopes Revisited
As a parent with no scientific background, I can tell you I find
creationists and the power they have obtained disturbing and extremely
destructive. However, the Kansas ruling is not the first and hardly an
isolated incident. Over the years (that these battles have become
newsworthy so I began to pay attention to them), I have collected articles
to help prepare me for the fight. I would hope that more of you than just
Janice will become actively involved in this mess, but the exhausting aspect
of it is that the creationists don't go away after one skirmish. We don't
"win" after one favorable school board meeting--they come back and come back
and come back and come back. (I wonder sometimes how they can possibly have
so much time to spare.)
Anyway, I am offering the citations of my favorite 4 articles (sorry I don't
have the equipment that would allow me to send the actual articles). I have
found these articles very useful, in no small part because they provide an
historical perspective and (I think) a reasonable hypothesis of why the
creationist (and some others) are waging this fight. Knowing one's
opponents' true motives is vital to being successful here. (Of course, for
the members of the creationist group that are just plain stupid, there isn't
much hope. Still, our arguments will be more effective I think if we can
shape them to address the underlying fears.) Personally, I would prefer
that scientists of all disciplines just take this fight over so I could stay
home and read a good book. I detest public speaking, but I have done it for
our children.
Salazar, David M. "Oppressed by Evolution." Discover, March 1998, pp. 78-83.
Moss, Robert. "The Problem With Evolution: Where Have We Gone Wrong?" The
Scientist, October 13, 1997, p. 7.
Schmidt, Karen. "Creationists Evolve New Strategy." Science, July 26, 1996,
pp. 420-422.
Singleton, Rivers Jr. "Creationists Versus Evolution: A Paradigm of Science
and Society Interaction." Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, 30(3),
Spring 1987, pp.324-344.
Cheers.
Rayenna Rhys
Reference Librarian
Flad & Associates
Madison, WI
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--Boundary_(ID_3HyHpy7EYHoayPOC4yJm1A)-- From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 18-AUG-1999 14:51:57.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Solar eclipse and animals: geese and ducks Reply to message from m.b.m.bracke@imag.dlo.nl of Mon, 16 Aug > >I was feeding a flock of geese and ducks during the event. The geese gave an >alarm call at the very moment of total darkness and swam in close formation >to the middle of the lake. The ducks stayed near the feeding site, but >stopped feeding despite increased feeding rate. As I expected, I observed >fear. > And how does one differentiate fear from startle or some other response that the geese did not tell us about? -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! -------------------------------------------- .. In vino veritas. In cervisio felicitas. From: IN%"deethom@erols.com" "Dee Thompson" 18-AUG-1999 19:09:29.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Scopes revisited >snipped... Clearly Truth isn't really the issue here...snip.. Actually truth as well as beauty seems to be in the eye of the beholder. Some years ago when I was active on a political front and watched the religious right very closly in my area. I remember a right to life rally in a huge jam packed church...identification was checked at the door and drivers licenses carefully compared against a list of some sort. Roe v. wade had stood the vote and the people were all charged up and nowhere to go...for the moment. The speakers were national figureheads and were instructing the members of the group in local politics. The movement took a change of direction to go underground...no more big national moves...the agenda was to claim the school boards across the country...the goal was start at the grade school level and create a new generation in the truth of god! The speakers advised the audience to be calm, quiet and methodical, but unwavering in thier persistence and the enemies of god would not notice until it was too late. It was time to go underground at start at the very bottom to build a new foundation. Roe v. wade would be defeated and creationism would be taught as the truth the bible, as god's word gives us....evolution would be shown to be the false theory and school prayer would be returned to the classroom...The plan was to start in the lowest grades where parents are the most accepting, and children most open to learning... remember the "give me your children" theme of another movement? The speakers swore that no one would even notice until it was already accomplished, stating the school boards got very little attention from the public...seems they were right. Anyone noticed the book banning in school libraries, going on in some regions over the last couple years? Maybe just one or two books at a time? ...snipped... children should be empowered to develop their own beliefs, in religion as well as in science, based on a balanced appraisal of evidence, tradition and the beliefs of others. They should not be expected to conform mindlessly to other people's prejudices....snip.. This is what the bible based thinkers feel they are doing...and they have not only passion, but a deep committment to god that drives them, whatever obstacles the secular world gives them to overcome. As Rayenna said, one small win is not victory. They will fight thier battle tirelessly, the fire of religious committment burns hot...if you haven't noticed it in your local political arena look again. It is a quiet movement until it gains a foothold and someone notices. This is one you should pay attention to at home, in your own neighborhood! Talk to your kids. It isn't just in Kansas! Dee From: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com" 20-AUG-1999 15:55:43.24 To: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" CC: Subj: for cat lovers I thought you all would like to see some observations of cats from the source. George For you cat lovers... =93Managing senior programmers is like herding cats."-- Dave Platt "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham "There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." --Unknown "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." -- Anonymous "Cats are smarter than dogs. You can't get eight cats to pull a sled through snow." -- Jeff Valdez "In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats." -- English proverb "As every cat owner knows, nobody owns a cat." -- Ellen Perry Berkeley "One cat just leads to another." -- Ernest Hemingway "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message and get back to you later." -- Mary Bly "Cats are rather delicate creatures and they are subject to a good many ailments, but I never heard of one who suffered from insomnia." -- Joseph Wood Krutch "People that hate cats will come back as mice in their next life." -- Faith Resnick "There are many intelligent species in the universe. They are all owned by cats." -- Anonymous "I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior." -- Hippolyte Taine "No heaven will not ever Heaven be; Unless my cats are there to welcome me."-- Unknown "There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats." -- Albert Schweitzer "The cat has too much spirit to have no heart." -- Ernest Menaul "Dogs believe they are human. Cats believe they are God." -- Unknown "Time spent with cats is never wasted." -- Colette "Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil, and cruel. True, and they have many other fine qualities as well." -- Missy Dizick "You will always be lucky if you know how to make friends with strange cats." -- Colonial American proverb "Cats seem to go on the principle that it never does any harm to ask for what you want." -- Joseph Wood Krutch =93I got rid of my husband. The cat was allergic." -- Unknown "My husband said it was him or the cat... I miss him sometimes." -- Unknown "Cats aren't clean, they're just covered with cat spit." -- Unknown From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 24-AUG-1999 11:58:17.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: [Fwd: Position Available] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Rc3+DczlH9nbjVw9/wr47A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The following job announcement was sent to me for posting on the network. If interested, please respond as directed. Cheers, Joseph M. Stookey --Boundary_(ID_Rc3+DczlH9nbjVw9/wr47A) Content-type: message/rfc822 Dear Dr Stookey, I am trying to place the ad below on the applied ethology network but am ge= tting strange error messages sent to me instead. could you please post the ad fo= r me, or at least tell me how to do so correctly myself? Many thanks for your help, Deborah Wells ************************************* Research Assistant (Ref: 99/F405C) School of Psychology Required as soon as possible for two years with the possibility of extensio= n for two further years to assist Professor Peter Hepper, the Head of School in t= he areas of animal welfare and animal behaviour. =20 Applicants must have an honours primary degree in psychology or closely rel= ated cognate area, a PhD or three years postgraduate experience/study in a relev= ant area and have presented work at scientific conferences. Experience of anim= al behaviour and animal welfare is required as are research skills in observat= ional techniques. A good grasp of statistical techniques and the use of SPSS and publication experience are desirable. Fieldwork is required as is occasio= nal weekend working. Other desirable criteria will be noted on the further particulars.=20 Informal enquiries may be made to Dr D Wells, tel. (01232) 274386/335446, e= -mail d.wells@qub.ac.uk Salary: =A316,655 - =A321,815 per annum, initial placing depending on age, experience and qualifications. Applicants, quoting the appropriate reference number may obtain further particulars from the Personnel Office, The Queen=B9s University of Belfast,= BT7 1NN, (01232) 273246/273044 or (01232) 273854 (answering machine) or FAX (01= 232) 324944, e-mail personnel@qub.ac.uk Closing date: 5.00 pm, 10th September 1999. =20 =20 Committed to an Equal Opportunities policy and selection on merit, the University welcomes applications from all sections of the community. --Boundary_(ID_Rc3+DczlH9nbjVw9/wr47A)-- From: IN%"JSWANSON@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" 24-AUG-1999 11:58:18.01 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Scopes Assist Dear Colleagues, I would like to make a request. If your newspaper carried an article about the Kansas Board of Education decision regarding evolution I would appreciate having a copy sent to me. I am especially interested in articles appearing in other countries. I am not concerned if they are not in English. A state legislator is preparing a resolution for our legislature concerning the decision and recommendations regarding the appointment structure of the school board. We would like to make sure that it is well demonstrated to the legislators that Kansas became world news and what the reactions were concerning this action. There are some people who are not convinced that this is anything other than a local control issue (namely the Chair of the Kansas Board of Education who voted for the measure). I hope you have saved the articles (if not dig back through those recycling piles!). I thank you in advance for your efforts. The sooner I receive them the better. Best, Janice Swanson Kansas State University Department of Animal Science and Industry 134C Weber Hall Manhattan, KS 66505-0201 Fax: 1-785-532-0759 phone: 1-785-532-1244 From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 24-AUG-1999 12:06:49.66 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Scopes Assist At 12:57 PM 08/24/1999 -0600, you wrote: >Dear Colleagues, > >I would like to make a request. If your newspaper carried an article >about the Kansas Board of Education decision regarding evolution I >would appreciate having a copy sent to me. I am especially >interested in articles appearing in other countries. I am not >concerned if they are not in English. A state legislator is >preparing a resolution for our legislature concerning the decision >and recommendations regarding the appointment structure of the school >board. We would like to make sure that it is well demonstrated to the >legislators that Kansas became world news and what the reactions were >concerning this action. There are some people who are not convinced >that this is anything other than a local control issue (namely the >Chair of the Kansas Board of Education who voted for the measure). I >hope you have saved the articles (if not dig back through those >recycling piles!). > >I thank you in advance for your efforts. The sooner I receive them >the better. > >Best, > >Janice Swanson Shall I try to find the one from the New York Times?? Not exactly world wide, but the news made it to NY. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"rwhite1@condor.depaul.edu" "Rebecca J White" 24-AUG-1999 13:18:41.65 To: IN%"jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" "JANICE SWANSON" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Scopes Assist Janice and other list members, Bruce Alberts, president of the National Academy of Sciences, and chair of the National Research Council, made a statement last week regarding the Kansas State Board of Education decision. His statement can be accessed from the National Academies' Top News page at: http://www.nationalacademies.org/topnews/ Under the title: Science Setback ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rebecca J. White Experimental Psychology Graduate Student DePaul University rwhite1@condor.depaul.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, JANICE SWANSON wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I would like to make a request. If your newspaper carried an article > about the Kansas Board of Education decision regarding evolution I > would appreciate having a copy sent to me. I am especially > interested in articles appearing in other countries. I am not > concerned if they are not in English. A state legislator is > preparing a resolution for our legislature concerning the decision > and recommendations regarding the appointment structure of the school > board. We would like to make sure that it is well demonstrated to the > legislators that Kansas became world news and what the reactions were > concerning this action. There are some people who are not convinced > that this is anything other than a local control issue (namely the > Chair of the Kansas Board of Education who voted for the measure). I > hope you have saved the articles (if not dig back through those > recycling piles!). > > I thank you in advance for your efforts. The sooner I receive them > the better. > > Best, > > Janice Swanson > > Kansas State University > Department of Animal Science and Industry > 134C Weber Hall > Manhattan, KS 66505-0201 > Fax: 1-785-532-0759 > phone: 1-785-532-1244 > From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 25-AUG-1999 06:57:39.96 To: IN%"JSWANSON@oz.oznet.ksu.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Scopes Assist At 12:57 PM 08/24/1999 -0600, JANICE SWANSON wrote: >Dear Colleagues, > >I would like to make a request. If your newspaper carried an article >about the Kansas Board of Education decision regarding evolution I >would appreciate having a copy sent to me. Go to: http://partners.nytimes.com/library/national/082599kan-evolution-edu.html?Re fId=OPjxYEutttn2FJKZ And let me know if you want the articles. I have today's NY Times and can snail mail it to you. If you tell me before Friday, that is. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 25-AUG-1999 07:01:10.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: slaughter of pregnant animals Dear All, I recently read a letter in a newspaper, the content of which I am hoping someone can confirm, refute or comment upon. The letter stated that each year, thousands of pregnant cattle (and presumably other species) are sent to slaughter houses. The reason I raise this issue is to determine whether any special attention is given to pregnant animals during pre-slaughter stunning. We have developed sophisticated methods to induce insensibility very quickly in animals about to be slaughtered, but I believe this depends on correct positioning of the electrodes or captive bolt. Because of this need for accurate placement, presumably these methods will have little effect on the sensibility of an unborn animal. Again presumably, the unborn animal will therefore die a longer death dependent on the failure of its mothers circulatory system after exsanguination (having her throat cut). Any comments? Regards, ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen?=" 25-AUG-1999 07:21:24.53 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "'chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: SV: slaughter of pregnant animals Dear Chris I am sorry to confirm your information. In the Veterinary Record (1995) 136: 162-165 there is an article by Singleton and Dobson reporting the results from a survey carried out at an abbatoir in south west England by sending a questionnaire to the farm of origin when cows were found to be pregnant when they were slaughtered. 23 percent of the cows slaughtered were found to be pregnant, and in 50 percent of the cases the farmer did not know that the cow was pregnant ! Of the pregnant cows slaughtered 27 percent were in their third trimester. The above article does not mention the issues raised in your posting, but they estimate the annual loss to the UK cattle industry due to these 'errors' at over 30 million pounds. Regards Birte ____________________________________________ Birte L Nielsen Senior Scientist Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences Research Centre Foulum PO Box 50 DK-8830 Tjele Phone: (0045) 8999 1373 Fax: (0045) 8999 1500 Email: birte.nielsen@agrsci.dk > From: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler" 25-AUG-1999 07:58:53.43 To: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen?=" CC: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "'chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: SV: slaughter of pregnant animals On Wed, 25 Aug 1999, [iso-8859-1] Birte Lindstr=F8m Nielsen wrote: > The above article does not mention the issues raised in your posting, but > they estimate the annual loss to the UK cattle industry due to these > 'errors' at over 30 million pounds. >=20 Sadly it is this financial statistic which is likely to garner support for measures to avoid the slaughter of pregnant animals rather than the impacts on the fetus for many people. Regulations imposed upon an industry against its will are often expensive to administer. Show someone how they can increase profits or otherwise financially benefit from some management change and that practice will become widely supported. Heck, here in the US our government slaughters wildlife all the time because, in spite of studies to indicate otherwise, some sectors believe it is good for their industry. At the other end of the spectrum eco-tourism has proven helpful in preserving habitat when it can be demonstrated that the indigenous species are more valuable as a living, free-ranging, tourist attraction than a retail item. Money is a powerful coneditioned reinforcer. Just look what people will do for it. Tie a practice to financial gain and more often than not it will be supported. H.U.G. Your dog! Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 25-AUG-1999 16:40:28.56 To: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=27Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen=27?=", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "'chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: slaughter of pregnant animals Chris We have the same issue here in Oz - not only animals being pregnant = when slaughtered but also giving birth during live export or in the feedlot (overseas and domestic). It is recognised as a problem (not = necessarily the welfare aspects!) and for that reason many producers spay female cattle = from which they have no intention of breeding (control of bulls is a real = problem in the extensive areas - even if you fence yours well that may not be = true for your neighbour and there are also a lot of 'mickey' (semi-feral) = bulls around). Spaying itself is a welfare issue as it is conducted with no anaesthetics/analgesics. There is a large amount of research going on = here into the control of female fertility using agonists etc. More producers are becoming skilled at pregnancy diagnosis (PD) and = really there is no excuse for slaughtering pregnant animals - all females = should be PDed before being sent to slaughter. Again this doesn't really address your concerns for the foetus. I'll = have a talk with some colleagues and see if they can shed some more light on = this. Carol Petherick > -----Original Message----- > From: Birte Lindstr=F8m Nielsen [SMTP:Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk] > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 11:28 PM > To: 'chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk'; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: SV: slaughter of pregnant animals >=20 > Dear Chris > I am sorry to confirm your information. > In the Veterinary Record (1995) 136: 162-165 there is an article by > Singleton and Dobson reporting the results from a survey carried out = at an > abbatoir in south west England by sending a questionnaire to the farm = of > origin when cows were found to be pregnant when they were = slaughtered. 23 > percent of the cows slaughtered were found to be pregnant, and in 50 > percent > of the cases the farmer did not know that the cow was pregnant ! Of = the > pregnant cows slaughtered 27 percent were in their third trimester. > The above article does not mention the issues raised in your posting, = but > they estimate the annual loss to the UK cattle industry due to these > 'errors' at over 30 million pounds. > =20 > Regards > Birte > ____________________________________________ > Birte L Nielsen > Senior Scientist > Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare > Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences > Research Centre Foulum > PO Box 50 > DK-8830 Tjele >=20 > Phone: (0045) 8999 1373 > Fax: (0045) 8999 1500 > Email: birte.nielsen@agrsci.dk >=20 > > =20 From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 25-AUG-1999 17:48:21.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'" CC: Subj: cattle aggression to an individual animal All By way of a change from the discussion about cat and dog "behavioural problems", I have a case study about a steer that I wonder if anybody can help with. A school teacher called me about a problem they were having with an individual from their small herd of Droughtmasters. The calves are weaned at about 8 months of age and the students handle the weaners and train them to be led (haltered etc as for show cattle). The current group that is being handled are about 12 months old (with about a 2 month variation). There are 3 heifers and 7 steers. Of the steers 3 were produced by artificial insemination; one from one sire and two from another sire. The remaining steers and heifers were sired by the bull in the herd. All are Droughtmaster (even those produced by AI). These 10 animals have always been together and there have never been any problems. However, in the last week or so one particular individual has started to be bullied by all other members of the group. At times 3 or 4 individuals will all 'attack' at the same time. The bullying consists of charging, butting, chasing etc. No mounting has been observed. All animals appear to be healthy and are growing/gaining weight as expected. The bullying appears to have resulted in the individual steer being forced through fences - or maybe he has jumped the fences to escape. For the last few mornings the steer has been found in with the breeder cows and there is no indication of him receiving any particular attention from the cows. The teacher said the steer appeared quite 'happy' there and they plan to leave him there, at least temporarily. The steer that is being targeted happens to be the 'superior' animal of the 10 in terms of his size (he is the largest), muscling, growth etc. He is also the animal that has a different sire to all the others (from AI). He is (and apparently always has been) a very quiet, docile animal and for that reason is favoured by the students. However, there is one other steer (one of those sired by the herd bull) that is also very quiet and highly favoured by the students too. Does anybody have any suggestions as to why this animal has suddenly started to be bullied? I toyed with the idea of a change in hormones and a resultant change in the odour of that animal. I did wonder if the animal had been castrated properly and if he's now beginning to produce some very male odours and behaviours! I also thought about recognition of kin (through pheromones). I also wondered how the behaviour of the students may have influenced what's going on. The teacher also suggested a "tall poppy" syndrome! But none of these theories fit all the facts - the main problem being why has this problem suddenly started? Sorry that this is so long, but I wanted to give you all the facts that I had. I'd be grateful to hear your ideas. Carol "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Mahatma Gandhi Carol Petherick Senior Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Queensland Beef Industry Institute Tropical Beef Centre PO Box 5545 Central Qld Mail Centre Rockhampton Qld 4702 Australia email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au tel: (0)7 4923 8200 fax: (0)7 4923 8222 From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 27-AUG-1999 09:35:31.19 To: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: SV: slaughter of pregnant animals At 08:58 AM 8/25/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) >Heck, here in the >US our government slaughters wildlife all the time because, in spite of >studies to indicate otherwise, some sectors believe it is good for their >industry. At the other end of the spectrum eco-tourism has proven helpful Do you have some specific examples in mind? Just curious. Thanks, Peggy Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) PO Box 844 Arlee MT 59821-0844 USA 406-726-3342 arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"H.A.M.Spoolder@pv.agro.nl" "Spoolder, H.A.M." 27-AUG-1999 10:10:02.71 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Tail postures Dear all, In many animals, tail postures and tail movements appear to have a clear signalling function towards other animals (and humans, I suppose!). I'm sure a lot has been written about the tailpostures of dogs and cats. However, I wonder how much is known about tail postures in livestock such as cows, pigs and sheep, and how much (if any) of that information has been related to the well being of these animals. I am particularly interested in the signalling function of pigs' tails, and have been assured by a collegue that there has been some work done on this subject. Unfortunately neither of us are able to find the publication that deals with it. Can anybody help? Regards, Hans Dr. H.A.M. Spoolder Research Institute for Pig Husbandry Lunerkampweg 7 Postbus 83 5240 AB Rosmalen The Netherlands tel. +31 73 528 65 55 fax. +31 73 521 82 14 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 27-AUG-1999 11:21:07.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Bovine Bullying Dear Carol and All, Those of us aching for relief from all that dog and cat stuff that causes so much horrid personal taxation really would like to hear about the theories regarding your battered bullock. Please don't keep it off the list. I would like it for my Bullying in all species file. Anyway cows are great. From 8 to 11 years of age I used to take my books into the cow yard and sit with Marta the Dairy shorthorn as a warm back rest (on clean straw). Rumination was the musical counter-point to much of my learning. Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"rayenna_rhys@flad.com" "Rayenna Rhys" 27-AUG-1999 14:28:44.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group" CC: Subj: Transgenic Cows/Waste Handling We need to find a consultant to design a waste handling system for a Pharming project in Virginia that will house transgenic cows. I have a number of calls out (telephone calls) around the country but haven't been getting anywhere. Any suggestions? Anyone used someone they would recommend? I am hopeful that someone here at the university (University of Wisconsin-Madison) will eventually get back to me, but we could use some names by Monday. Thanks. Rayenna Rhys Flad & Associates Madison, Wisconsin From: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler" 27-AUG-1999 15:57:19.00 To: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: SV: slaughter of pregnant animals On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, peggy shunick wrote: > >Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) > > >Heck, here in the > >US our government slaughters wildlife all the time because, in spite of > >studies to indicate otherwise, some sectors believe it is good for their > >industry. > > Do you have some specific examples in mind? Just curious. > > Thanks, Peggy > I'm thinking psecifically about the Animal Damage Control (ADC) program and studies published in the Journal of Wildlife Management, Boggess et al 42(2):362-372 and Robel et.al. 45(4):894-911 where the proportions of livestock losses attributed to dogs was greater than that attributable to coyotes. Livestock management practices had a greater impact on reducing losses than did coyote killing. I also remember reading a study, but don't have it in front of me at the moment, which found that coyote litters are larger and more coyotes breed when they are hunted indiscriminantly than when the selected depredating individuals are removed. There is now a movement among some in the Western sheep industry to produce "Predator Friendly" wool products. Instead of lethal control measures they are managing their livestock to reduce predation and utilizing non-lethal measures like guardian dogs, llamas, donkeys, lambing in supervised yards, and lighting areas at night. There are still plenty of folks who believe the only good coyote is a dead coyote. Someone made a good coyote out of one of our radio-collared animals just this last spring. And even though it is illegal to do so, and will attract more coyotes to his yard, he insisted that he had to "Hang the carcass on the fence to learn them varmints a thin' er two" The ADC or as it is now known, Wildlife Services, spends a lot of federal money flying around shooting coyotes on federal land at the behest of sheep and cattle ranchers. They used to do the same to wolves but they killed them all. H.U.G. Your dog! Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 27-AUG-1999 16:04:41.24 To: IN%"JSWANSON@oz.oznet.ksu.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Scopes Assist At 12:57 PM 08/24/1999 -0600, you wrote: >Dear Colleagues, > >I would like to make a request. If your newspaper carried an article >about the Kansas Board of Education decision regarding evolution I >would appreciate having a copy sent to me. Article off the internet: http://womenswire.com/buzz/e0816evolution.html?a24 This particular article suggests that you go into your attic, if you live in Kansas, and find your old science text books, because you will need the info when you get to college. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 29-AUG-1999 16:13:30.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"jbmiller50@aol.com", IN%"jbm403@aol.com", IN%"patmelese@aol.com", IN%"sims@upei.ca", IN%"mandjonze@aol.com", IN%"trigger6@gte.net", IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net", IN%"abrad93939@aol.com", IN%"hornplayer@mailexcite.co CC: Subj: Movin' on ANIMAL BEHAVIOR CLINIC 18250 Main Street D.B. Cameron, DVM Middleburg Heights, OH 216/826-0013 44130 Fax: 216/234-3407 ================================================================ August 29, 1999 Dear friends, neighbors, relatives, and colleagues, Due to Y2K problems with their software and not enough interest to generate some funds to fix it, the Cleveland Freenet is shutting down partly on September 1st and completely on September 30. This leaves me up a creek without an e-mail. So my new e-mail address will be: orion1432@juno.com. I will kind of miss the elite ".edu" at the end of my address but what the hell. Once I figure it out I will be able to receive graphic files. Please do not send me any viri. I am not enough of a techie to deal with it and I am not positive that my McAfee will do the job. See you soon on my new venue. DBC -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! -------------------------------------------- .. In vino veritas. In cervisio felicitas. From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 29-AUG-1999 16:30:48.87 To: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "'Jeanne Saddler'", IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: SV: slaughter of pregnant animals Dear Jeanne and others I recently read in the New Scientist that in areas where there are more coyotes there is also more birdlife. It appears that the coyotes prey on the smaller predators of birds - I think the article said feral cats, skunks, raccoons. Another good reason to have coyotes around? Here in Oz (not Kansas!) there are reports, which seem to be supported by observations, that poisoning/killing of dingos leads to more attacks on livestock. It appears that if resident dingos are killed then bands of young males dingos move into the area and there is more indiscriminate killing. Any evidence of this with coyotes? Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeanne Saddler [SMTP:myriad@ksu.edu] > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 1999 7:57 AM > To: peggy shunick > Cc: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: SV: slaughter of pregnant animals > > On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, peggy shunick wrote: > > > >Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) > > > > >Heck, here in the > > >US our government slaughters wildlife all the time because, in spite of > > >studies to indicate otherwise, some sectors believe it is good for > their > > >industry. > > > > Do you have some specific examples in mind? Just curious. > > > > Thanks, Peggy > > > I'm thinking psecifically about the Animal Damage Control (ADC) program > and studies published in the Journal of Wildlife Management, Boggess et > al 42(2):362-372 and Robel et.al. 45(4):894-911 where the proportions of > livestock losses attributed to dogs was greater than that attributable to > coyotes. Livestock management practices had a greater impact on reducing > losses than did coyote killing. > I also remember reading a study, but don't have it in front of me at the > moment, which found that coyote litters are larger and more coyotes breed > when they are hunted indiscriminantly than when the selected depredating > individuals are removed. There is now a movement among some in the Western > sheep industry to produce "Predator Friendly" wool products. Instead of > lethal control measures they are managing their livestock to reduce > predation and utilizing non-lethal measures like guardian dogs, llamas, > donkeys, lambing in supervised yards, and lighting areas at night. There > are still plenty of folks who believe the only good coyote is a dead > coyote. Someone made a good coyote out of one of our radio-collared > animals just this last spring. And even though it is illegal to do so, and > will attract more coyotes to his yard, he insisted that he had to "Hang > the carcass on the fence to learn them varmints a thin' er two" > The ADC or as it is now known, Wildlife Services, spends a lot of federal > money flying around shooting coyotes on federal land at the behest of > sheep and cattle ranchers. They used to do the same to wolves but they > killed them all. > > H.U.G. Your dog! > Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 29-AUG-1999 21:55:32.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'" CC: Subj: RE: cattle aggression to an individual animal Peggy I too look forward to others' speculation - had none yet, so maybe others are also 'stumped' by this. Yes, this group have always been together. From birth to weaning they were with their mothers, then after weaning (at about 8 months of age) were kept as a group. They are now about 12 months old and have not been moved to another paddock since weaning. Your comment about the change in temperature and the behaviour of your sheep was timely. Last night we had the first storm of the season (the end of winter and the start of the 'wet' season perhaps) rip through - high winds, lots of rain and the temperature dropped about 6-7C in a few minutes (from about 28C - yes, this is winter!!). It seemed to have a big effect on the cattle - the bulls (in a group in one paddock) started roaring and the cows (in another paddock some kms away) started 'fighting' - butting and charging each other. It's probably about 6 months since the last storm. Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: peggy shunick [SMTP:arl3342@montana.com] > Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 7:03 PM > To: Petherick, Carol (TBC) > Subject: Re: cattle aggression to an individual animal > > At 09:45 AM 8/26/1999 +1000, you wrote: > > >syndrome! But none of these theories fit all the facts - the main > problem > >being why has this problem suddenly started? > > In Montana, we just had our first cool days, so the boys (sheep) are > restless. But you're in a different hemisphere, hmmmmmm.... > > So, this group has always been together (with their moms?), but have they > moved into new quarters? > > Looking forward to others' speculations, > Peggy > > > > > > > > Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick > BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) > PO Box 844 > Arlee MT 59821-0844 > USA > > 406-726-3342 > arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" "W, Ray Stricklin" 30-AUG-1999 02:07:51.16 To: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler", IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: SV: slaughter of pregnant animals At 16:57 1999-08-27 -0500, Jeanne Saddler wrote: >On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, peggy shunick wrote: > >> >Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) >> >> >Heck, here in the >> >US our government slaughters wildlife all the time because, in spite of >> >studies to indicate otherwise, some sectors believe it is good for their >> >industry. >> >> Do you have some specific examples in mind? Just curious. >> >> Thanks, Peggy >> >I'm thinking secifically about the Animal Damage Control (ADC) program >and studies published in the Journal of Wildlife Management, Boggess et >al 42(2):362-372 and Robel et.al. 45(4):894-911 where the proportions of >livestock losses attributed to dogs was greater than that attributable to >coyotes. Livestock management practices had a greater impact on reducing >losses than did coyote killing. The above statement reminds me of when I was in the US Army. I was told then that more Americans died each year in automobile accidents than died in Vietnam. I found no solace in the argument. While this form of relativism is a very widely used technique by politicos of today (i.e., what I did was not nearly so bad as what someone else did!), I do not believe such arguments should be accepted in an academic discussion. Changing predator control methods may be justified, but relative damage ratio (dogs to coyotes) is not a valid basis for arguing against controlling coyotes. W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"Marianne.Bonde@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Marianne_Kj=E6r_Bonde?=" 30-AUG-1999 02:31:23.09 To: IN%"H.A.M.Spoolder@pv.agro.nl" "'Spoolder, H.A.M.'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: SV: Tail postures Dear Hans, Sorry, I don't have any info for you reg. livestock tail postures. = However, it is a very interesting question and I hope you will forward the = responses to the list. =20 Best regards, Marianne =20 > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: Spoolder, H.A.M. [SMTP:H.A.M.Spoolder@pv.agro.nl] > Sendt: 27. august 1999 15:22 > Til: 'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca' > Emne: Tail postures >=20 >=20 >=20 > Dear all, >=20 > In many animals, tail postures and tail movements appear to have a = clear > signalling function towards other animals (and humans, I suppose!). = I'm > sure > a lot has been written about the tailpostures of dogs and cats. = However, I > wonder how much is known about tail postures in livestock such as = cows, > pigs > and sheep, and how much (if any) of that information has been related = to > the > well being of these animals.=20 >=20 > I am particularly interested in the signalling function of pigs' = tails, > and > have been assured by a collegue that there has been some work done on = this > subject. Unfortunately neither of us are able to find the publication = that > deals with it.=20 >=20 > Can anybody help? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Hans >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Dr. H.A.M. Spoolder > Research Institute for Pig Husbandry > Lunerkampweg 7 > Postbus 83 > 5240 AB Rosmalen > The Netherlands=20 > tel. +31 73 528 65 55 > fax. +31 73 521 82 14 =20 >=20 [Marianne Kj=E6r Bonde] =20 > =20 From: IN%"marie.haskell@bbsrc.ac.uk" "marie.haskell" 30-AUG-1999 03:12:17.51 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"H.A.M.Spoolder@pv.agro.nl" CC: Subj: Tail postures Hans, I don't know if this counts as a study of tail posture as a signal, but we did study tail posture in relation to performance of racehorses. Tail posture prior to the race was scored on an increasing scale as being Relaxed, Stiff or Swished. Losers (i.e. horses who came in in the last few places in a race) were more likely to have higher scores. This, and other body posture scores, seemed to indicate a higher level of arousal or agitation. (Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci., (1997) v53, 231-248). Anecdotally, I have always wondered about the tail posture of pigs, and wondered whether it worked the same way: tail hanging straight down is an indicator of relaxedness, stiff of more agitation and straight up is alarm perhaps. It would be nice to look and find out! Hope this is of some use! Marie Marie Haskell Roslin Institute (Edinburgh) Roslin, Midlothian, U.K. From: IN%"BBEAVER@cvm.tamu.edu" "Bonnie Beaver" 30-AUG-1999 07:31:01.21 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Tail postures One very good reference on tail postures is the following: Kiley-Worthington, M.: The tail movements of ungulates, Canids and Felids = with particular reference to their causation and function as displays. = Behaviour LVI (1-2): 69-115, 1976. From: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com" 30-AUG-1999 14:27:33.97 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: from Kansas to Indiana Can anybody verify this? I just heard on the radio that legislators are proposing a ban on the teaching of evolution in Indiana schools! WIBC Indianapolis 1:00am 8-29-99 George Phillip Quinlan All About Dogs Behavior and Training Center Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 30-AUG-1999 16:08:29.13 To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" "'W, Ray Stricklin'", IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler", IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: SV: slaughter of pregnant animals All Back to the original issue of slaughter of pregnant cows - I've been unable to find any information on it here in Queensland, but am told that we could easily find out from an abattoir survey. I may conduct one. Re. what happens to the foetus, a cattle veterinarian informs me that the foetus has a high oxygen demand so that when the cow is bled-out/exsanguinated the foetus would die rapidly through oxygen starvation. I'm not sure if 'rapidly' means seconds or minutes. Carol Petherick > -----Original Message----- > From: W, Ray Stricklin [SMTP:ws31@umail.umd.edu] > Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 5:49 PM > To: Jeanne Saddler; peggy shunick > Cc: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: SV: slaughter of pregnant animals > > At 16:57 1999-08-27 -0500, Jeanne Saddler wrote: > >On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, peggy shunick wrote: > > > >> >Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) > >> > >> >Heck, here in the > >> >US our government slaughters wildlife all the time because, in spite > of > >> >studies to indicate otherwise, some sectors believe it is good for > their > >> >industry. > >> > >> Do you have some specific examples in mind? Just curious. > >> > >> Thanks, Peggy > >> > >I'm thinking secifically about the Animal Damage Control (ADC) program > >and studies published in the Journal of Wildlife Management, Boggess et > >al 42(2):362-372 and Robel et.al. 45(4):894-911 where the proportions of > >livestock losses attributed to dogs was greater than that attributable to > >coyotes. Livestock management practices had a greater impact on reducing > >losses than did coyote killing. > > The above statement reminds me of when I was in the US Army. I was told > then that more Americans died each year in automobile accidents than died > in Vietnam. I found no solace in the argument. While this form of > relativism is a very widely used technique by politicos of today (i.e., > what I did was not nearly so bad as what someone else did!), I do not > believe such arguments should be accepted in an academic discussion. > Changing predator control methods may be justified, but relative damage > ratio (dogs to coyotes) is not a valid basis for arguing against > controlling coyotes. > > > W. Ray Stricklin > University of Maryland From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 30-AUG-1999 16:16:01.65 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: Tail postures Hello Hans, You should find the following of interest: Kiley-Worthington M (1976). The tail movements of ungulates, canids, and felids with particular reference to their causation and function as displays. Behaviour, 56:69-115. Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services Philadelphia, PA Spoolder, H.A.M. wrote: > Dear all, > > In many animals, tail postures and tail movements appear to have a clear > signalling function towards other animals (and humans, I suppose!). I'm sure > a lot has been written about the tailpostures of dogs and cats. However, I > wonder how much is known about tail postures in livestock such as cows, pigs > and sheep, and how much (if any) of that information has been related to the > well being of these animals. > > I am particularly interested in the signalling function of pigs' tails, and > have been assured by a collegue that there has been some work done on this > subject. Unfortunately neither of us are able to find the publication that > deals with it. > > Can anybody help? > > Regards, > > Hans > > Dr. H.A.M. Spoolder > Research Institute for Pig Husbandry > Lunerkampweg 7 > Postbus 83 > 5240 AB Rosmalen > The Netherlands > tel. +31 73 528 65 55 > fax. +31 73 521 82 14 From: IN%"Libby20@aol.com" 31-AUG-1999 04:12:17.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: tail postures In the EU Scientific Veterinary Committee's report on pig welfare (1998, I think) it is stated (p59) that " ... it is known that pigs use their tails in communication and such usage would be considerably impaired by cutting off most of the tail." The statement is not supported by reference to any work, and I don't know which of the many authors wrote it, so I don't know if it is of any use to you! Libby Hunter From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 31-AUG-1999 11:36:03.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Tongue-tie in race horses! Dear All, Just when you think you have heard of nearly everything, something comes along that just blows your socks off! I must have been living in the dark ages because I have never heard of this before, but apparently this is a relatively common practice in the racing industry. Here in Saskatchewan we have a number of 2 year old race horses that are having their tongues tied prior to racing! The logic is as follows: Young horses at the race track are often exposed to new pathogens and as a result can suffer from what we would call colds or flu like viruses. As a result their throats and lymph nodes are inflamed and their breathing (during racing) can be impaired. To help "open up" the air way and allow the horse to breathe easier, during racing, the tongue is pulled forward and tied down (apparently with considerable force and tension to keep the tongue from blocking the throat). After the horse has finished the race the tongue is untied! Most older horses are over the problem and would not have their tongues tied. Supporters of this technique would say they can not afford for the 2 yr. old horse to miss this racing season and that they could not run some of them (over 20% of them) without having their tongues tied. Has anyone else ever heard of this? Am I explaining this correctly? I don't know about the rest of you, but I would put this in the category of barbaric, way beyond the normal witch craft commonly practiced in the industry. Is this common throughout the world of horse racing? Is this just Saskatchewan lunacy? Is this illegal anywhere? I would be very curious to hear your responses. Sincerely, Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 From: IN%"rnewberry@wsu.edu" "Ruth Newberry" 31-AUG-1999 13:22:55.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Tongue-tie in race horses! This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_GmiE02i9axOy8J9MKyvW4A) Content-type: text/plain Hello Joe and others, According to one of my veterinary colleagues, tongue tying is most commonly used to control a problem known as "dorsal displacement of the soft palate". A couple of web sites describing this condition are listed below. http://www.iaep.com/pages/bulletins/racehorsecare.html http://www.vet.cornell.edu/weas/cd1.html Regards, Ruth Newberry Center for the Study of Animal Well-being Washington State University PO Box 646520 Pullman WA 99164-6520 USA Tel. 509-335-2957 or 509-335-5059 Fax 509-335-4650 Email rnewberry@wsu.edu > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr. Joseph M. Stookey [SMTP:joseph.stookey@usask.ca] > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 10:42 AM > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Tongue-tie in race horses! > > Dear All, > > Just when you think you have heard of nearly everything, something comes > along that just blows your socks off! I must have been living in the > dark ages because I have never heard of this before, but apparently this > is a relatively common practice in the racing industry. Here in > Saskatchewan we have a number of 2 year old race horses that are having > their tongues tied prior to racing! > > The logic is as follows: Young horses at the race track are often > exposed to new pathogens and as a result can suffer from what we would > call colds or flu like viruses. As a result their throats and lymph > nodes are inflamed and their breathing (during racing) can be impaired. > To help "open up" the air way and allow the horse to breathe easier, > during racing, the tongue is pulled forward and tied down (apparently > with considerable force and tension to keep the tongue from blocking the > throat). After the horse has finished the race the tongue is untied! > Most older horses are over the problem and would not have their tongues > tied. Supporters of this technique would say they can not afford for > the 2 yr. old horse to miss this racing season and that they could not > run some of them (over 20% of them) without having their tongues tied. > > Has anyone else ever heard of this? Am I explaining this correctly? > > I don't know about the rest of you, but I would put this in the category > of barbaric, way beyond the normal witch craft commonly practiced in the > industry. Is this common throughout the world of horse racing? Is this > just Saskatchewan lunacy? Is this illegal anywhere? I would be very > curious to hear your responses. > > Sincerely, > > > Joseph M. Stookey > Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > University of Saskatchewan > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > S7N 5B4 --Boundary_(ID_GmiE02i9axOy8J9MKyvW4A) Content-type: text/html Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable-----Original Message-----As a parent with no scientific background, I can tell you I find creationists and the power they have obtained disturbing and extremely destructive. However, the Kansas ruling is not the first and hardly an isolated incident. Over the years (that these battles have become newsworthy so I began to pay attention to them), I have collected articles to help prepare me for the fight. I would hope that more of you than just Janice will become actively involved in this mess, but the exhausting aspect of it is that the creationists don't go away after one skirmish. We don't "win" after one favorable school board meeting--they come back and come back and come back and come back. (I wonder sometimes how they can possibly have so much time to spare.)
From: Rayenna Rhys [mailto:rayenna_rhys@flad.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 9:06 AM
To: wattsjon@duke.usask.ca
Cc: Applied Ethology Discussion Group
Subject: Scopes RevisitedAnyway, I am offering the citations of my favorite 4 articles (sorry I don't have the equipment that would allow me to send the actual articles). I have found these articles very useful, in no small part because they provide an historical perspective and (I think) a reasonable hypothesis of why the creationist (and some others) are waging this fight. Knowing one's opponents' true motives is vital to being successful here. (Of course, for the members of the creationist group that are just plain stupid, there isn't much hope. Still, our arguments will be more effective I think if we can shape them to address the underlying fears.) Personally, I would prefer that scientists of all disciplines just take this fight over so I could stay home and read a good book. I detest public speaking, but I have done it for our children.
Salazar, David M. "Oppressed by Evolution." Discover, March 1998, pp. 78-83.
Moss, Robert. "The Problem With Evolution: Where Have We Gone Wrong?" The Scientist, October 13, 1997, p. 7.
Schmidt, Karen. "Creationists Evolve New Strategy." Science, July 26, 1996, pp. 420-422.
Singleton, Rivers Jr. "Creationists Versus Evolution: A Paradigm of Science and Society Interaction." Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, 30(3), Spring 1987, pp.324-344.
Cheers.
Rayenna Rhys
Reference Librarian
Flad & Associates
Madison, WI
Hello Joe and = others,
According to one of = my veterinary colleagues, tongue tying is most commonly used to = control a problem known as = "dorsal displacement of the soft palate". A couple of = web sites describing this condition are listed below.
http://www.iaep.com/pages/bulletins/racehorsecare.html=
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/weas/cd1.html
Regards,
Ruth Newberry
Center for the Study of Animal =
Well-being
Washington State University
PO Box 646520
Pullman WA 99164-6520
USA
Tel. 509-335-2957 or =
509-335-5059
Fax 509-335-4650
Email rnewberry@wsu.edu
-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Joseph M. Stookey =
[SMTP:joseph.stookey@usask.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 10:42 AM
To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: =
Tongue-tie in race horses!
Dear All,
Just when you think you have heard of =
nearly everything, something comes
along that just blows your socks =
off! I must have been living in the
dark ages because I have never heard =
of this before, but apparently this
is a relatively common practice in =
the racing industry. Here in
Saskatchewan we have a number of 2 =
year old race horses that are having
their tongues tied prior to =
racing!
The logic is as follows: Young =
horses at the race track are often
exposed to new pathogens and as a =
result can suffer from what we would
call colds or flu like viruses. =
As a result their throats and lymph
nodes are inflamed and their =
breathing (during racing) can be impaired.
To help "open up" the air =
way and allow the horse to breathe easier,
during racing, the tongue is pulled =
forward and tied down (apparently
with considerable force and tension =
to keep the tongue from blocking the
throat). After the horse has =
finished the race the tongue is untied!
Most older horses are over the =
problem and would not have their tongues
tied. Supporters of this =
technique would say they can not afford for
the 2 yr. old horse to miss this =
racing season and that they could not
run some of them (over 20% of them) =
without having their tongues tied.
Has anyone else ever heard of = this? Am I explaining this correctly?
I don't know about the rest of you, =
but I would put this in the category
of barbaric, way beyond the normal =
witch craft commonly practiced in the
industry. Is this common =
throughout the world of horse racing? Is this
just Saskatchewan lunacy? Is =
this illegal anywhere? I would be very
curious to hear your =
responses.
Sincerely,
Joseph M. Stookey
Department of Herd Medicine and =
Theriogenology
Western College of Veterinary =
Medicine
University of Saskatchewan
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
S7N 5B4