From: IN%"csmith35@nycap.rr.com" "Cynthia Smith" 1-DEC-2002 14:52:15.40 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: swine handling Lately I have been viewing a number of swine handling videos. It is encouraging to see the emphasis on well built facilites that follow many of the design criteria that Dr. Temple Grandin has spoke about for years (good footing, good lighting, chutes with solid panels that prevent shadows, balking, etc.) It is also encouraging to see the emphasis on good stockperson/pig relationships with the emphasis on patient humane handling. However I can't help this nagging feeling that although we have made progress in our handling methods there must be a better way to move pigs from place to place. It seems we spend large amounts of energy driving pigs from behind with a board or our hands, or other driving tools. Has anyone experimented with using pigs trained as leader pigs? For example what if someone trained a pig to easily move from point A to point B in the swine unit. Could this pig then be used to lead other pigs from point A to point B? What if a pig was trained to target so it would move anywhere a target goes, down an alley, on a truck, or into a holding facility. Would it be practical to have this trained pig on the farm? Do pigs not follow each other all that well anyways? Of course if a trained leader pig were used across swine units I imagine the spread of disease would be a concern. Has anyone out there tried some different methods for moving pigs on a daily basis besides driving them from behind? Cynthia Smith, M.S. Technical Information Specialist USDA Animal Welfare Information Center From: IN%"pdic@btclick.com" "Pig Disease Information Centre UK" 1-DEC-2002 16:10:28.54 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: RE: swine handling Thanks Cynthia for these suggestions. The spread of disease would cartainly be a concern on medium-sized and larger pig farms. Separating buildings and batches of pigs is quite a major pathogen-control strategy. The most difficult task is loading into transport vehicles (usually done these days across a perimeter security fence). Having a lead pig which goes near or into a vehicle (that has been to other farms) and then returns on-farm would be unacceptable on most pig farms. However, there are situations, particularly on extensive farms (which in the United Kingdom, for example, are about 30% of our pig industry) where adult animals are moved around and the more experienced sows or boars can be useful group leaders. No doubt this could be exploited further along the lines you suggest. There is a substantial problem these days over minimising stress and time-consumption during routine procedures such as vaccinations and blodd-testing - both of which are increasingly done. There is also a move towards increased requirements to individually identify all pigs before they leave the farm**. Catching and marking them individually can again be quite a problem on outdoor systems. **Traceability of pigmeat (back to the farm of origin) is a requirement of many "quality assurance" schemes and will soon be compulsory throughout the European Union - other countries are also moving in this direction. We know that pigs are very trainable animals, as popularised in the films and books about "Babe... www.pighealth.com/MEDIA/P/BOOKS/BKDETAIL/SMITH.HTM Famous American pig trainer, Priscilla Valentine, has produced world-champion performing pigs, and has written the world's first book specifically devoted to training pigs.... See www.pighealth.com/training.htm Best Wishes Mike Meredith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cynthia Smith" To: Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 8:51 PM Subject: swine handling > Lately I have been viewing a number of swine handling videos. It is encouraging to see the emphasis on well built facilites that follow many of the design criteria that Dr. Temple Grandin has spoke about for years (good footing, good lighting, chutes with solid panels that prevent shadows, balking, etc.) It is also encouraging to see the emphasis on good stockperson/pig relationships with the emphasis on patient humane handling. However I can't help this nagging feeling that although we have made progress in our handling methods there must be a better way to move pigs from place to place. It seems we spend large amounts of energy driving pigs from behind with a board or our hands, or other driving tools. > > Has anyone experimented with using pigs trained as leader pigs? For example what if someone trained a pig to easily move from point A to point B in the swine unit. Could this pig then be used to lead other pigs from point A to point B? What if a pig was trained to target so it would move anywhere a target goes, down an alley, on a truck, or into a holding facility. Would it be practical to have this trained pig on the farm? Do pigs not follow each other all that well anyways? Of course if a trained leader pig were used across swine units I imagine the spread of disease would be a concern. Has anyone out there tried some different methods for moving pigs on a daily basis besides driving them from behind? > > Cynthia Smith, M.S. > Technical Information Specialist > USDA Animal Welfare Information Center From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" "kcover" 1-DEC-2002 17:46:16.33 To: IN%"csmith35@nycap.rr.com" "Cynthia Smith" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: swine handling Hi Cynthia, It is so easy to teach pigs to target, that even in a farm operation, it would be profitable to teach pigs to target, and to be guided to that target from a distance by sound cues (i.e. the sound of the cue to come to target) At the University of Maryland Swine Unit, in 1990, Tom Hartsock, Benny Erez, Karen Clingerman (previously of your office) and I trained two groups of pigs to stand freely for voluntary blood draw from the vena cava. (Once the bugs were worked out, the whole process took less than an hour per pig, and our biggest problem was that all the pigs wanted to be first! ). All the pigs moved easily with targetting, and they can easily learn to target to both a hand target and an extension of the hand, such as a pole or station marker. To teach the bridges and actual targetting, takes less than five minutes, and an entire group could be trained at once, using feeding time, or treats. The targetting skills could ease management of the pigs in a number of other ways, aiding movement on the farm, examination, and safe movement amidst the pigs, to name a few applications. Although the blood draws were totally voluntary, the rate of success in collecting blood was as high as when force was used, with none of the apparent stress, and greater ease of handling, fewer people required (1 versus 2-3), no snares or squeeze cages required, etc. Information on teaching the bridges appears at my website at: http://www.synalia.com/animal_training_bridges.htm Best wishes and hi to Mike, Tim and Deanna, if they are still around... Kayce Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com Cynthia Smith wrote:Has anyone experimented with using pigs trained as leader pigs? For example what if someone trained a pig to easily move from point A to point B in the swine unit. Could this pig then be used to lead other pigs from point A to point B? What if a pig was trained to target so it would move anywhere a target goes, down an alley, on a truck, or into a holding facility. Would it be practical to have this trained pig on the farm? Do pigs not follow each other all that well anyways? Of course if a trained leader pig were used across swine units I imagine the spread of disease would be a concern. Has anyone out there tried some different methods for moving pigs on a daily basis besides driving them from behind? > Cynthia Smith, M.S.Technical Information SpecialistUSDA Animal > Welfare Information Center From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" "kcover" 1-DEC-2002 17:54:05.63 To: IN%"pdic@btclick.com" "Pig Disease Information Centre UK" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" Subj: RE: swine handling Hi Mike, Using bridge and target training, it should be very easy to teach the pigs their own identity (as defined by you - name, number, whatever) and to sort themselves out. As I mentioned to Cynthia, when we did the blood sampling at U Maryland, the pigs were in a group and had to sort themselves out and come only when their name was called. This takes very little time and could be done incidentally during normal pig care operations. I wrote on pig training for the Pot-Bellied Pigs magazine in the early 90's, specifically on pig management, and some of those articles may be of interest to you. I organized them according to my priorities for managing the care of exotic animals (safety first, then health and husbandry training, then transport, then occupational therapy, then other behaviors). One thing we found very helpful in pig management was occupational therapy in the form of rooting boxes, an idea I introduced and developed through the magazine. I would love to hear if anyone in research or industry has tried such measures for enrichment? Best wishes, Kayce Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com Pig Disease Information Centre UK wrote: > Thanks Cynthia for these suggestions. > > The spread of disease would cartainly be a concern on medium-sized and > larger pig farms. Separating buildings and batches of pigs is quite a major > pathogen-control strategy. > > The most difficult task is loading into transport vehicles (usually done > these days across a perimeter security fence). > Having a lead pig which goes near or into a vehicle (that has been to other > farms) and then returns on-farm would be unacceptable on most pig farms. > > However, there are situations, particularly on extensive farms (which in the > United Kingdom, for example, are about 30% of our pig industry) where adult > animals are moved around and the more experienced sows or boars can be > useful group leaders. No doubt this could be exploited further along the > lines you suggest. > > There is a substantial problem these days over minimising stress and > time-consumption during routine procedures such as vaccinations and > blodd-testing - both of which are increasingly done. > There is also a move towards increased requirements to individually identify > all pigs before they leave the farm**. Catching and marking them > individually can again be quite a problem on outdoor systems. > > **Traceability of pigmeat (back to the farm of origin) is a requirement of > many "quality assurance" schemes and will soon be compulsory throughout the > European Union - other countries are also moving in this direction. > > We know that pigs are very trainable animals, as popularised in the films > and books about "Babe... > www.pighealth.com/MEDIA/P/BOOKS/BKDETAIL/SMITH.HTM > > Famous American pig trainer, Priscilla Valentine, has produced > world-champion performing pigs, and has written the world's first book > specifically devoted to training pigs.... > See www.pighealth.com/training.htm > > Best Wishes > Mike Meredith > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cynthia Smith" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 8:51 PM > Subject: swine handling > > > Lately I have been viewing a number of swine handling videos. It is > encouraging to see the emphasis on well built facilites that follow many of > the design criteria that Dr. Temple Grandin has spoke about for years (good > footing, good lighting, chutes with solid panels that prevent shadows, > balking, etc.) It is also encouraging to see the emphasis on good > stockperson/pig relationships with the emphasis on patient humane handling. > However I can't help this nagging feeling that although we have made > progress in our handling methods there must be a better way to move pigs > from place to place. It seems we spend large amounts of energy driving pigs > from behind with a board or our hands, or other driving tools. > > > > Has anyone experimented with using pigs trained as leader pigs? For > example what if someone trained a pig to easily move from point A to point B > in the swine unit. Could this pig then be used to lead other pigs from point > A to point B? What if a pig was trained to target so it would move anywhere > a target goes, down an alley, on a truck, or into a holding facility. Would > it be practical to have this trained pig on the farm? Do pigs not follow > each other all that well anyways? Of course if a trained leader pig were > used across swine units I imagine the spread of disease would be a concern. > Has anyone out there tried some different methods for moving pigs on a daily > basis besides driving them from behind? > > > > Cynthia Smith, M.S. > > Technical Information Specialist > > USDA Animal Welfare Information Center From: IN%"Candace.Croney@orst.edu" "Croney, Candace" 2-DEC-2002 12:14:34.45 To: IN%"csmith35@nycap.rr.com" "Cynthia Smith", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: swine handling Dear Cynthia, It's actually quite easy to train pigs to move themselves. In the cognition work done in our labs using typical farm species such as Yorkshires as well as micro pigs, all learned quite easily to move from point A to B without any handling aids--just voice commands. This was done simply by shaping the behavior in incremental steps. In fact we've had Yorkshires run through a race and load themselves on to a truck with nothing more than verbal encouragement. And yes, where the one goes the others generally will follow, particularly if they've been food rewarded at some point for moving down a learned path or following either a person or another pig. All this is facilitated by quiet surroundings, minimal noise and distractions, at least one familiar handler and well-designed facilities. Having said that I would be very careful about biosecurity issues across swine units. Candace Croney, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Animal Behavior/Bioethics Oregon State University Phone: (541) 737-1401 Email: candace.croney@orst.edu "I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do what I can." Edwin Hale > -----Original Message----- > From: Cynthia Smith [SMTP:csmith35@nycap.rr.com] > Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 12:52 PM > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: swine handling > > Lately I have been viewing a number of swine handling videos. It is encouraging to see the emphasis on well built facilites that follow many of the design criteria that Dr. Temple Grandin has spoke about for years (good footing, good lighting, chutes with solid panels that prevent shadows, balking, etc.) It is also encouraging to see the emphasis on good stockperson/pig relationships with the emphasis on patient humane handling. However I can't help this nagging feeling that although we have made progress in our handling methods there must be a better way to move pigs from place to place. It seems we spend large amounts of energy driving pigs from behind with a board or our hands, or other driving tools. > > Has anyone experimented with using pigs trained as leader pigs? For example what if someone trained a pig to easily move from point A to point B in the swine unit. Could this pig then be used to lead other pigs from point A to point B? What if a pig was trained to target so it would move anywhere a target goes, down an alley, on a truck, or into a holding facility. Would it be practical to have this trained pig on the farm? Do pigs not follow each other all that well anyways? Of course if a trained leader pig were used across swine units I imagine the spread of disease would be a concern. Has anyone out there tried some different methods for moving pigs on a daily basis besides driving them from behind? > > Cynthia Smith, M.S. > Technical Information Specialist > USDA Animal Welfare Information Center From: IN%"rnewberry@wsu.edu" "Ruth Newberry" 2-DEC-2002 23:37:51.16 To: IN%"Dognponyshow@msn.com" "'Dognponyshow MCGEE'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ISAE (E-mail)'" CC: Subj: RE: calf roping study Hi Kasie, I was interested by your question because I had heard similar claims. I asked a student in my animal welfare class, who is a Rodeo Queen, if she could find out more about this study. Here is what she found out from her contact, Linda Burdick, Executive Director, Friends of Rodeo ( http://FriendsofRodeo.com ). There was a study done on roping calves at Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo in the early 1980's. Apparently, "they took 90 calves and divided them into three groups -- the first group of 30 calves were roped every day, the second group were roped every other day, and the third group of 30 were not roped at all. At the end of the 30 days all the 90 calves were sent to slaughter and tested for all types of things pertaining to the three different groups."... According to Linda Burdick, the results showed "that the calves that were used for practice roping ended up being more muscled and in better shape than those that just stood around in the pens." Apparently, Jim Warren, 101 Livestock in Salinas, CA (831 area code) has details of the study. I am guessing that the study was not published but I haven't followed up on this. I'd be interested to hear what you find out. Regards, Ruth Newberry Associate Professor Center for the Study of Animal Well-being Washington State University Pullman WA 99164-6351 USA -----Original Message----- From: Dognponyshow MCGEE [mailto:Dognponyshow@msn.com] Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:55 AM To: Garner, Joseph P.; 'ISAE (E-mail)' Subject: Re: calf roping study I am trying to find a study or studies that were done on calves used for roping. The basic tenant was that if they were handled carefully there was no detriment to the later gain ratios in the feed lot compared to calves not used for roping. Anyone know who did that one? All the rodeo people assure me it was done, but I can't find hide nor hair of it...(pun intended, it IS Monday, after all...) Kasie McGee CSU Animal Science From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 3-DEC-2002 13:01:48.91 To: IN%"rnewberry@wsu.edu", IN%"Dognponyshow@msn.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"cathy@awionline.org", IN%"chris@awionline.org", IN%"viktorawi@siskiyou.net" Subj: RE: calf roping study Ruth, Kasie, others: I am somewhat troubled by the statements that "if they were handled carefully there was no detriment to the later gain ratios in the feed lot compared to calves not used for roping" and "that the calves that were used for practice roping ended up being more muscled and in better shape than those that just stood around in the pens." If the rodeo association is the source, I am assuming these statements are somehow going to be used to justify calf-roping from a welfare perspective so as to answer critics of the practice. Excuse me if I am wrong in this assumption. I hope it goes without saying that physical shape and "gain ratios in the feed lot" are not sufficient indicators that an animal has had an acceptable welfare. Calves given an equivalent amount of exercise on treadmills presumably would also be in better shape than calves that stand around in pens. So, presumably, would range calves be. Comparison to poor alternatives seems to me to be too frequently used to justify the alternative that experimenters (or the entities that fund experiments) believe a priori to be the preferable one. This also can happen because the experimenters have not thought deeply enough about what they are researching. Calves standing around in pens is that sort of poor alternative because it too promotes poor welfare. Another example is comparing sows snug in warm buildings in gestation crates with sows on free range in below zero weather freezing. Neither is an acceptable alternative, but pointing to an extreme of sows suffering in a wintry free range environment has been used to try to justify the use of gestation crates. A more acceptable alternative is sows kept indoors in groups with behaviorally appropriate space allotments and lots of fresh bedding, ad lib water, and individual feeding places. Against this more acceptable alternative, gestation crates come in looking unacceptable. Maybe, if a welfare comparison with respect to physical condition alone, recognizing that it is only one aspect of calf health and well-being, is being made, it would be better to compare muscle condition in calves that are being roped with muscle condition in calves that are not penned but allowed to range more freely. Which alternative is chosen for comparison by the researcher is a value judgment and an elucidation of what values or assumptions were implicit in the choice is an important part of the research report. However, even here, I think you will agree that muscle condition and lean growth rates alone are not sufficient indicators that calves in either treatment are experiencing good welfare. Marlene Halverson Hi Kasie, I was interested by your question because I had heard similar claims. I asked a student in my animal welfare class, who is a Rodeo Queen, if she could find out more about this study. Here is what she found out from her contact, Linda Burdick, Executive Director, Friends of Rodeo (http://FriendsofRodeo.com). There was a study done on roping calves at Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo in the early 1980's. Apparently, "they took 90 calves and divided them into three groups -- the first group of 30 calves were roped every day, the second group were roped every other day, and the third group of 30 were not roped at all. At the end of the 30 days all the 90 calves were sent to slaughter and tested for all types of things pertaining to the three different groups."... According to Linda Burdick, the results showed "that the calves that were used for practice roping ended up being more muscled and in better shape than those that just stood around in the pens." Apparently, Jim Warren, 101 Livestock in Salinas, CA (831 area code) has details of the study. I am guessing that the study was not published but I haven't followed up on this. I'd be interested to hear what you find out. Regards, Ruth Newberry Associate Professor Center for the Study of Animal Well-being Washington State University Pullman WA 99164-6351 USA > -----Original Message----- > From: Dognponyshow MCGEE [mailto:Dognponyshow@msn.com] > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:55 AM > To: Garner, Joseph P.; 'ISAE (E-mail)' > Subject: Re: calf roping study > > > I am trying to find a study or studies that were done on calves used for > roping. The basic tenant was that if they were handled carefully there was > no detriment to the later gain ratios in the feed lot compared to calves > not used for roping. Anyone know who did that one? All the rodeo people > assure me it was done, but I can't find hide nor hair of it...(pun > intended, it IS Monday, after all...) > > Kasie McGee > CSU Animal Science From: IN%"rnewberry@wsu.edu" "Ruth Newberry" 3-DEC-2002 20:57:38.70 To: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" "'Rexxie1@aol.com'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: calf roping study Hello Marlene and others, I agree with your assessment that comparisons and measures of interest for welfare assessment were not used in the vaguely-attributed study that the rodeo spokesperson alluded to. It seems unlikely that one would slaughter 90 calves from a calf roping study immediately after 30 days of roping (i.e. when still quite young) solely in order to measure "muscling" and "good shape", raising the question of when the animals were slaughtered. If not slaughtered until after fattening in a feedlot, then many intervening factors could affect the results. Indicators of bruising would be of particular interest and these data would clearly need to be collected at the time of the calf roping rather than many months later at the time of slaughter. In searching Agricola, CABI, PubMed and Science Direct, I have not been able to find any peer-reviewed published scientific studies assessing the impact of roping on calves used in rodeos or in rodeo practice sessions. Regards, Ruth Newberry From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 4-DEC-2002 09:32:17.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: rodeo research Dear All, In light of the recent discussion concerning the welfare of rodeo stock and the inability to locate any scientific studies supporting the sport, I thought I should pass on to you a relatively recent study that was found by one of my graduate students. The study contains key words that you might put into a search engine to locate a valid study on this topic, such as: RODEO, BEHAVIOR. Of course this study has nothing to do with the welfare of the calves, but the title is catchy! Perhaps now that this article has been brought to your attention it will be cited a few more times in the future and framed in the applied ethology literature! Cheers, Joe Stookey ===================================================================== TITLE: Buckle bunnies: groupies of the rodeo circuit AUTHORS: Gauthier, D.K. and Forsyth, C.J. SOURCE: DEVIANT BEHAVIOR REF INFO: 21 (4): 349-365 JUL-AUG 2000 Document type: Article Language: English Cited References: 14 Times Cited: 0 Abstract: This article is a descriptive analysis of female groupies who follow rodeo cowboys. Cowboys call these women "buckle bunnies." Data were obtained from interviews with rodeo cowboys, wives of rodeo cowboys, rodeo affiliates, and buckle bunnies. Data were also collected from observations of professional and amateur rodeos as well as the interactions between bunnies and cowboys at bars and hotels following the rodeo. Data were obtained from the Internet as well. This research focuses on several aspects of the buckle bunny role: where they meet cowboys, the types of interaction, and the rating system. Finally the authors frame the data within the sociological literature. Addresses: Gauthier DK, Univ Louisiana, Dept Sociol, POB 40198, Lafayette, LA 70504 USA Univ Louisiana, Dept Sociol, Lafayette, LA 70504 USA From: IN%"hubrecht@ufaw.org.uk" "Dr R HUBRECHT" 4-DEC-2002 10:03:53.66 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: PhD Studentship Pharmaceutical Housing and Husbandry Steering Committee PhD studentship for research into laboratory animal housing and husbandry UFAW formed The Pharmaceutical Housing and Husbandry Steering Committee, to advance relevant animal welfare research. The Committee, of industry and animal welfare organisations, is inviting applications for research based i= n the British Isles into any aspect of laboratory animal housing, husbandry and welfare, including effects on the quality of science. The cost of the project should be no more than =A323,000 p.a. for up to three years. Application will be by a two-stage process with project supervisors initially submitting a brief concept note by 24th January 2003. Please write for further information and for the Concept Note forms to UFAW= , The Old School, Brewhouse Hill, Wheathampstead, Herts AL4 8AN. Tel. 01582 831818. Fax 01582 831414. Universities Federation for Animal Welfare Registered Charity Number 207996 Science in the Service of Animal Welfare --=20 Best Wishes Robert Hubrecht Dr R Hubrecht Deputy Director UFAW Universities Federation for Animal Welfare The Old School Brewhouse Hill Wheathampstead Herts=20 AL4 8AN, UK Tel +44 (0) 1582 831818 Fax +44 (0) 1582 831414 Web site: www.ufaw.org.uk=20 From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 6-DEC-2002 17:39:11.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Dangerous dogs Iain MacDonald wrote: > Re the DMA it is actually only done on dogs over 12 months hence it is not > so much a predictive type test as an assessment of what you actually have. > In this regards it does allow for breeders to have an established bench > mark. > > I do also wholeheartedly agree with you that handler error/ownership style > etc has a huge impact on the dog and was not trying to understate that, > rather suggesting that if the KC were to implement something like the DMA as > a test of mentality it would be a proactive move on their behalf which would > clearly demonstrate to the public that they are taking all reasonable steps > to insure that all dogs who are bred from or compete are sound I agree that would be excellent "PR" for the KC, the ANKC or whatever registry body you wish to name. Whether it would accomplish the desired goal is, I think, another matter altogether. I do not in fact believe there is any such thing as an "idiot proof" animal - that is the price of dealing with the natural world and not with robots, though as a software developer of many years' experience I can assure you it's extraordinarily difficult to make even something as stupid and predictable as a computer program "idiot proof" - and I don't think it is wise to encourage the belief that such a thing is possible. I do have a copy of the detailed protocol for the DMA, though I must spend more time studying it than I have managed so far. I still think there will be many surprises when you go to translate those measures into the real world behavior of the animal. To avoid misunderstanding, let me say I quite agree that many breeders pay insufficient attention to temperament issues. That is one of rather many undesirable "side effects" of breeding primarily for "conformation" and - perhaps more to the point - for the objective of winning in the show ring. It is the single-minded pursuit of the "best" which is the real source of the problems. Quite apart from the extreme artificiality of the criteria by which "best" is decided, the compulsion to rank the animals 1, 2, 3 etc. produces a built-in and unavoidable tendency toward exaggeration, a tendency which results from some fairly basic laws of human perception and which is therefore extraordinarily difficult to avoid. The "best" is in effect the enemy of the excellent, never mind the good, with most unfortunate effects on the genetics of the population. John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 6-DEC-2002 17:40:19.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: vets & animal welfare David Appleby wrote: > In answer to your question; I was questioning the mechanisms (internal) that > lead to the postures that have been interpreted as calming signals. > Hopefully subsequent e-mails in this thread have clarified various lines of > thought. Thanks, then I interpreted your question correctly, and we also seem to agree in wishing to question mechanisms. The proximate cause (physiological or neurophysiological) of a behavior item is not necessarily - or even usually - the same as its function. The function is, quite likely, the source of the selection pressures which shaped the mechanisms, but it's important not to confuse the evolutionary and the physiological causes. That is, of course, an old story in ethology! John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"Dognponyshow@msn.com" "Dognponyshow MCGEE" 8-DEC-2002 14:38:35.53 To: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com", IN%"rnewberry@wsu.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"cathy@awionline.org", IN%"chris@awionline.org", IN%"viktorawi@siskiyou.net" Subj: RE: calf roping study I am somewhat troubled by the statements that "if they were handled carefully there was no detriment to the later gain ratios in the feed lot compared to calves not used for roping" and "that the calves that were used for practice roping ended up being more muscled and in better shape than those that just stood around in the pens." If the rodeo association is the source, I am assuming these statements are somehow going to be used to justify calf-roping from a welfare perspective so as to answer critics of the practice. Excuse me if I am wrong in this assumption. I hope it goes without saying that physical shape and "gain ratios in the feed lot" are not sufficient indicators that an animal has had an acceptable welfare. Calves given an equivalent amount of exercise on treadmills presumably would also be in better shape than calves that stand around in pens. So, presumably, would range calves be. Comparison to poor alternatives seems to me to be too frequently used to justify the alternative that experimenters (or the entities that fund experiments) believe a priori to be the preferable one. This also can happen because the experimenters have not thought deeply enough about what they are researching. Calves standing around in pens is that sort of poor alternative because it too promotes poor welfare. Another example is comparing sows snug in warm buildings in gestation crates with sows on free range in below zero weather freezing. Neither is an acceptable alternative, but pointing to an extreme of sows suffering in a wintry free range environment has been used to try to justify the use of gestation crates. A more acceptable alternative is sows kept indoors in groups with behaviorally appropriate space allotments and lots of fresh bedding, ad lib water, and individual feeding places. Against this more acceptable alternative, gestation crates come in looking unacceptable. Maybe, if a welfare comparison with respect to physical condition alone, recognizing that it is only one aspect of calf health and well-being, is being made, it would be better to compare muscle condition in calves that are being roped with muscle condition in calves that are not penned but allowed to range more freely. Which alternative is chosen for comparison by the researcher is a value judgment and an elucidation of what values or assumptions were implicit in the choice is an important part of the research report. However, even here, I think you will agree that muscle condition and lean growth rates alone are not sufficient indicators that calves in either treatment are experiencing good welfare. Marlene Halverson Marlene, It is not that I totally disagree that calves would be much better off in a natural setting than penned and used for roping practice. Calf roping is a reality (for now?) that we can't simply wish away. With that in mind, what we DO have the power to change is how well the animals are treated in the practice ring and pens, until they are sent to either the range or to feedlots (again, not the ideal scenario, but a reality.). I also think that muscling isn't the best measure of the welfare of the animals. It is not surprising that the calves are in better shape than their peers who simply stood around in pens. I think cortisol testing before, during and after the calves use as practice animals, weighed against those of calves on pasture or range would be a better indicator of stress and therefore a better measure of their welfare. Food for thought.. Kasie From: IN%"M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl" "Matthijs Schilder" 9-DEC-2002 04:54:24.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: communication and displacement signals Hi there, I would like to add a few things to the ungoing discussion. 1) As to the communicative value of behaviours two lines of development can= =20 be differentiated: a) many displacement or other conflict behaviours=20 (conflict behaviours in the ethological sense) have been developped into=20 communicative acts: baring the teeth, for example, can be understood as an= =20 "intention movement" that has been ritualized (again in the ethological=20 sense of the word) into a communicative behaviour. Simultaneously, on the=20 receiver side, hard- and software must have developpend that makes it=20 possible to react appropriately (that is, to one's own evolutionary=20 advantage) to such a communication. The second trail is, that behaviours, that are not selected as=20 communicative acts, still may contain usefull information for a receiver.=20 For example, trembling or salivating which goes along with uncertainty and= =20 fear, could be picked up by a receiver, who then, through classical=20 conditioning, may learn its meaning. It is the receiver, who attributes a=20 meaning to a behaviour by a sender. In that way dogs could learn to extract= =20 information from dog or human behaviours not evoluated as communicative=20 acts, because certain behavioural manifestations come to predict certain=20 other relevant things (the outcome of a conflict for example) to a receiver. 2) in a species like a dog, that lives a group life when necessary and=20 possible, it is logically to expect pacifying behaviours. The reason is,=20 that when relationships in a group are very important, it is worth while to= =20 protect, maintain and restore them. (By the way, this is the basis for=20 "=FFealous" behaviour in many species!) A whole host of litterature has been generated in Primatology on the=20 existance and functioning of pacifying signals, which sometimes coincide=20 with submissive signals and sometimes not. Lip smacking, for example,=20 funcitons in Longtailed macaques as a pacifying signal, whereas baring the= =20 teeth signals fear and submission. Presenting may have both functions. I have the idea that in dogs pacifying signals and submissive ones largely= =20 are the same, although not completely Sometimes dogs approach the owner, show tongue flicking, seek physical=20 contact in a low posture before committing an act, that they expect to be=20 punished. Some dogs may become very submissive after having bitten somebody. Owners=20 then often speak form "guilty behaviour". In fact those dogs might expect=20 to be punished and act in a natural way to prevent or deminish punishment. greetings, Matthijs Schilder dr M.B.H. Schilder Utrecht University WCDM Yalelaan 17 3584CZ Utrecht, the Netherlands tel +31 30 2534784 fax +31 30 2539227 From: IN%"sandra.schoenreiter@luas.bayern.de" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nreiter_Sandra?=" 10-DEC-2002 05:49:39.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Influence of a bich on her puppies Hi to all, after a longer break I can take apart again at this forum. At the moment I am working on dogs. I have a literature in my mind, which describes the influence of the mother dog on her puppies, regarding the interaction with humans. Thanks sandra From: IN%"pabliss@jazzfree.com" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pablo_Hern=E1ndez?=" 10-DEC-2002 19:30:45.22 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: Territorial aggression Dear all, Apart from my introduction to you a few months ago, this is the first = time I write you. I need help. I've got a problem with a bitch (Boxer, two years old, not spayed) = showing a mild but very insidous problem of aggression towards strange = people on the street, probably caused by a poor socialization. I've = tried different techniques of desensitisation and counterconditioning = but all of them failed because of a very strong state of hypervigilance = (scanning). This attitude makes the animal very reactive to her = surroundings so, although we reward good behaviour when occurs, the = situation remains exactly the same as before the treatments because the = first part of the secuence of the problem doesn't vary. If the animal sees somebody far away from her, she fixes her attention = on her/him, resulting later, and only sometimes, in barking (bufff !!), = growling and raised hackles (more frequently at night). As she reacts so = soon when sees somebody at a very long distance, it's very difficult for = the owner to change her attitude, even rewarding for good behaviour when = occurs.=20 The last thing I've tried was to use paroxetin to reduce this attitude = but the results were not good. Have any of you any suggestion about this? Do you know any way to reduce = or eliminate this state of hypervigilance? Are there any medication = useful in these cases? Any comment will be very apreciated. Thanks to all. Best wishes, Pablo Hern=E1ndez Vet. Med. (Spain) From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" "kcover" 10-DEC-2002 22:04:13.54 To: IN%"pabliss@jazzfree.com" "Pablo =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hern=E1ndez?=" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" Subj: RE: Territorial aggression Hi Pablo, Your dog can probably be taught to relax her vigilence. The only situations that I have had problems with are those where the dogs are unpredictable. This does not seem to be the case with your dog. I teach a process which I call "Perception Modification". An explanation resides on http://www.synalia.com/animal_training_animal_emotion.htm, as do directions for conditioning the bridges (http://www.synalia.com/animal_training_bridges.htm) I have used this successfully with many dogs and many other types of animals including exotic animals. It is pretty fast, easy, stressless and takes no special equipment (but requires thoroughness.) You may want to change her perception of people on the street from one of showing threat to people to one where she automatically looks to you for guidance once she spots someone. You can teach her to touch your arm in a particular place when she sees someone, giving you a silent alert, and make it a game - the object of which can be to see if she can spot the people before you do. The trick is to do the Perception Modification, where you control the approach and retreat of the challenge, and if she starts to show the slightest reaction, the challenge retreats. She will probably quickly control her behavior in order to keep that interesting person coming nearer. (I believe dogs get into these hypervigilant, hyperreactive modes to self-medicate with adrenaline or other hormones, but I have no scientific basis to back that yet) Your dog can also be taught to relax on cue, which is very useful. If you do not want her to be on alert, it helps if you have taught her what the other options are and how to get to those altered states. Even if she is hypervigilent, she should drop her "guard" upon your release. This takes training. I have a protection trained Doberman who is outstanding in his takedown work, but you would never know it to see him at Thanksgiving dinner with 27 people he barely knew, and 9 other dogs (only knew one). If he alerts, I praise him and check out his concern. I then release his guard, and he returns to being a family dog. The trainers of this dog are Julie and Mark Alexander, of Talisman Dogs, and you might find it helpful to talk to them directly, as they are expert in training dogs bred for this task, under very rigorous conditions. Julie is also researching (informally) the effects of diet on dog aggression and activity level and may have helpful information for you there. Her email is: reddragn@bossig.com Best, Kayce Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com Pablo Hernández wrote: > Dear all, Apart from my introduction to you a few months ago, this is > the first time I write you. I need help. I've got a problem with a > bitch (Boxer, two years old, not spayed) showing a mild but very > insidous problem of aggression towards strange people on the street, > probably caused by a poor socialization. I've tried different > techniques of desensitisation and counterconditioning but all of them > failed because of a very strong state of hypervigilance (scanning). > This attitude makes the animal very reactive to her surroundings so, > although we reward good behaviour when occurs, the situation remains > exactly the same as before the treatments because the first part of > the secuence of the problem doesn't vary.If the animal sees somebody > far away from her, she fixes her attention on her/him, resulting > later, and only sometimes, in barking (bufff !!), growling and raised > hackles (more frequently at night). As she reacts so soon when sees > somebody at a very long distance, it's very difficult for the owner to > change her attitude, even rewarding for good behaviour when occurs.The > last thing I've tried was to use paroxetin to reduce this attitude but > the results were not good.Have any of you any suggestion about this? > Do you know any way to reduce or eliminate this state of > hypervigilance? Are there any medication useful in these cases?Any > comment will be very apreciated. Thanks to all. Best wishes, Pablo > HernándezVet. Med. (Spain) From: IN%"Shetts@aol.com" 11-DEC-2002 09:53:32.64 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Territorial aggression In a message dated 12/10/2002 6:35:17 PM Mountain Standard Time, pabliss@jazzfree.com writes: > . I've tried different techniques of desensitisation and counterconditioning > but all of them failed because of a very strong state of hypervigilance > (scanning). This attitude makes the animal very reactive to her > surroundings so, although we reward good behaviour when occurs, this is a good example of the discussion that was had not too long ago on this list regarding the difference between operant and classical conditioning and counter conditioning procedures. In a case like this, the operant approach that you've tried is unlikely to be successful for 2 reasons: 1. because good behavior doesn't occur often enough to be rewarded enough times to make a difference and 2. because the dog's emotional arousal is the root of the problem. That's why a classical conditionining approach combined with desensitization makes the most sense. When the dog first sees someone at a distance - that is the time to intervene by pairing this event with something wonderful for the dog , usually a totally irresistible tidbit (classical conditioning ala Pavlov), no matter what her behavior. This is most likely to be successful if a strict desensitization plan is also followed (e.g. not relying on spontaneously occuring events, but setting them up), so that the person at a distance does not come closer until after a number of pairings of distant person-treat the dog's emotional arousal has changed to a positive expectation. Contrary to popular belief, this is not rewarding 'bad behavior' but changing the dog's emotional arousal - which is why it is so important to understand the difference between classical and operant approaches, and how they affect behavior. If this dog is so anxious that there is no good behavioral starting point, short-term anti-anxiety medication may be helpful. Best, Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D. Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist Animal Behavior Associates, Inc. Littleton, CO www.animalbehaviorassociates.com From: IN%"rich@valutech.com" "Richard Cooper" 11-DEC-2002 10:52:39.32 To: IN%"kc@synalia.com" "'kcover'" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" Subj: RE: Territorial aggression Hi Kayce, I have a similar, but distinct, problem with my dog Brownie's territoriality. She's part Golden Retriever with a little German Shephard mixed in. She's an in-home dog, except when we take her for a walk on a leash, or let her use the fenced rear yard to do her business in. The problem is that we have a lot of horses and riders passing by our property, and there is a little male collie that lives in the area. Brownie loves to nuzzle the collie through our chain link fence, but she barks if the collie is too far away to nuzzle. When we walk Brownie for a couple miles in the park on weekends, she has a dramatic urge to go meet other dogs who are also (thank god) on leashes in the park. Brownie barks and pulls against the leash to go sniff them, but we've had bad experiences where she seems to be too aggressive and not very gentle with other dogs. Fortunately, she isn't quite so aggressive with horses. We've even had a few cases where she nuzzles horses through the chain link fence, but about 20% of the time, she even barks at them from a few inches away through the fence. The collie would very much like to be with Brownie, who is 7 years old, and has been fixed. So I think the collie is just naturally gentle and playful. The collie will let me pet him, and even comes into the garage when the door is left open. So my question is: should I encourage Brownie and the collie to get together so that some of Brownie's aggression can be reduced, or is there too much of a risk that Brownie will attack the (much smaller) collie? Brownie weighs about a hundred pounds, and the collie probably weighs about forty. What should I do to reduce Brownie's terrirorial aggression? Sincerely, Rich From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 11-DEC-2002 11:43:57.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: aggressive dogs Jon Bowen wrote: > I don't think that you should seek help from an internet list on dog > training or aggression. > To do so would be dangerous because it is impossible to assess a dog like > this over the internet. Quite correct. The first thing any of the professionals on that list will say is, arrange for a competent professional to meet the dog and observe it in its own environment. > I would also worry about the competence of anyone who would give advice on > an aggressive dog that has already bitten without seeing and assessing it. See above. None of the people on that list would give such advice without actually seeing, assessing and probably also handling the dog. Other that is than giving the advice "get the dog evaluated, hands-on, by a competent professional!" > It would be far better and safer to contact your veterinary surgeon and seek > an immediate referral to a qualified professional behaviourist with > experience in treating aggressive dogs. Not all veterinary surgeons are expert in such matters, and for that matter neither are all professional behaviorists. At least in the U.S., 'professional behaviorist' presupposes a particular approach to the problem, which may or may not be the best approach. There is a tremendous amount of ideology in such things. The list I mentioned is unlike most "dog training" etc. lists in being relatively free of such. It is not committed to any particular dogma in respect of training methods. What all of its guiding members have in common is vast experience in dealing with problems of aggression. > Your dog may also have some sort of medical problem and so he needs to be > thoroughly checked out before treatment. Again, something on which any competent professional will insist. The list I mentioned is inhabited mainly by professional trainers with special competence and experience in dealing with problems of aggression. John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" "kcover" 11-DEC-2002 12:39:23.28 To: IN%"rich@valutech.com" "Richard Cooper" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" Subj: RE: Territorial aggression Hi Richard, In my experience, one can follow the template for perception modification, using the collie as the "challenge" if the collie's owner is willing and has a half hour to spare. As Susanne Hetts comments, you need enough success to reward, and this is a great way to get it. Further, since you start with conditioning the animal to appreciate your signals, and to be able to access relaxation, you are setting her up for success. She will probably quickly learn to control her behavior in order to "earn" the approach of the collie she wants to play with (her barking is probably indicative here). She just needs a more successful ploy for getting attention. I am in the process of making a video illustrating this exact process. It shows a reactive dog being introduced to other dogs, through this cycles process, and then shows the two dogs working together, in close proximity on lead. Of course, now they interact in direct contact with no problems at all. I go through the same process in teaching my animals (and those of clients) to respect stock. I will be happy to notify when the video is available. Similarly, she can learn to interact more gently, with the support of intermediate and terminal bridging, and the naming and demonstration of appropriate and inappropriate behavior. If you remove her, quietly and without fuss, from the play whenever she body slams, she will generally learn not to do this. If you show her ahead of time what a body slam is, and name it, and then tell her "no body slam" and then show and name appropriate contact, you will get the change even faster. As always, initially, you will get faster results if you reinforcer the decision to be appropriate, rather than waiting for the whole appropriate interaction to transpire. If you see a look of assessment on your dog's face, it is a great time to say, "Brownie, easy! That is good, easy, xxxxxxxxxxxxx (as the challenge continues to approach) X (as the challenges recedes) xxxxx (as the recession continues) X once the challenge has passed. It is important not to end the behavior till the challenge is away (hence the cycle), because the dogs will try to get their bridges, and their adrenaline too, by lunging at the challenge as it moves away, if you end too soon. Make sure to rest between trials, so she can return to her baseline calm state. Please feel free to write if I have not been clear or complete enough here. Best, Kayce Richard Cooper wrote: > I have a similar, but distinct, problem with my dog Brownie's > territoriality. She's part Golden Retriever with a little > German Shephard mixed in. She's an in-home dog, except > when we take her for a walk on a leash, or let her use > the fenced rear yard to do her business in. From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 12-DEC-2002 15:31:21.53 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fw: Territorial aggression Hello Pablo, After Kayce's letter of recommendation, I hope I have some suggestions = that will help. I have had some good success using dietary changes and = nutritional supplements with breaking entrenched patterns of = overexcitement and aggression. They are useful to help keep the dog from = over reacting making training easier but are not meant as long term = crutches. Some of the dietary changes can be continued long term but the = supplements can be dropped when the dog's excitement cycle eases. I have = posts saved I will send you if you wish. As they are rather lengthy I = don't wish to clog peoples' email for those not interested. We've seen Kayce use her cycles to help animals develop self control = during any type of excited state. I do recommend trying her method. It is always wise to have an aggressive dog evaluated in person by an = experienced trainer. Are there any Schutzhund or trainers who specialize = in protection dogs available?=20 However, I have some questions and suggestions that should be safe to = try under controlled circumstances. I suspect that part of this is a = people problem not a dog problem. The dog may be more sensible in being = cautious around strangers than the owner. Especially at night with few = people around. We have seen quite a few dogs from protection breeds = whose owners try to completely eliminate natural watchdog instincts = rather than reward appropriate alerting by the dog, telling the dog what = is not appropriate and only correcting continued alerting after the dog = has been told this is not something to bark or growl at. Even then, = there are times the dog may detect a potential threat the owner does = not. A good handler who reads his/her dog well will learn to trust the = dog's judgement. But that is in the future for this dog and owner. Questions, Has the dog ever been exposed to human aggression such as a threat to = the owner, break in or seen heavy arguing or fighting elsewhere? How does the dog respond to strangers that are close by and either = neutral or friendly? Is there any direct attempt to lunge, snap or = snarl? How attentive is the dog to the owner while alerting? Will she respond = to changes in pace or direction on a loose leash? will she autosit = quickly? or follow other cues promptly? Is the owner timid? Or overreactive to the dog's response? A timid owner = often makes a protective dog more protective as s/he senses the owner is = unable to handle a threat. The person best qualified to handle a = protective dog is the one who needs it least. A confident aware owner = who understands humans can be dangerous and who can respond calmly to a = potential threat will help a dog relax as it knows the boss is working = on it too. If the owner tenses up when the dog alerts, this persuades the dog there = is a reason to be cautious. How does the owner respond? by chastising = the dog and trying to get the dog to ignore the person? And how quickly = does the owner notice the dog has detected someone? In a way, it sounds = as if the dog is trying to tell the owner hey! there's a potential = mugger over there boss! listen up will you! If the owner responds by = saying "hey shut up! it can't possibly be a mugger" the dog will-- = correctly in my opinion-- think the owner is a gullible victim and keep = intensifying the message hoping her owner will wise up. If the owner were to be attentive enough to notice very subtle signals = of alerting, quietly acknowledge and thank the dog for alerting, the dog = may think her owner finally grew a brain.=20 Personally when I am walking alone at night, I want a dog who is very = vigilant but controlled, calmly alert and who warns me at the greatest = possible distance. But who would only be aggressive if there is evidence = of immediate threat. Kayce saw Duncan's brother, Titan while we were traveling. Titan is very = vigilant. While we were taking him out for exercise in the dark, he = either heeled attentively or when permitted to wander on leash, he took = a point position ahead of us while still keeping the leash loose. He = scanned the parking lot and when people came in or out, intently = observed them. While we strolled side streets, he scanned the area and = occasionally indicated concern by slight changes. He might lower and = extend his head a bit, close his mouth, flick ears to catch sounds, = change pace or pause and look closely. When we did see someone, he would = perhaps pause, look at me to make sure I saw and continue on with us. = When we passed some pedestrians on the narrow sidewalk, I called him to = heel and stepped off to the street rather than have some stranger become = uncomfortable with a large dog passing closely. He remained attentive = and took a few looks over his shoulder after they passed and when they = seemed far enough away not to be able to sneak up on us without him = hearing them, he ignored them. If we had been around many people, he would have kept most attention on = those closest to us. If it had been daylight he would have been less = vigilant as body language would be easier to read.=20 His training has been to show by example that most people are nice but = there are some who are nasty. He was bred to know this and attempting to = inhibit it would frustrate him as well as increase his attempts to let = us know some folks are nasty. By acknowledging his alerts, communicating = what we want him to alert to and what we don't want to be alerted to, he = can do what he was bred to do calmly. When this dog was going through his early training, I took him to a = local feed store whose owner's children were well mannered and liked = animals. He was introduced to the children and I kept a sharp eye on = both the children and him. With the parents permission and observation, = I had the boys take some dog cookies and leave the room. First they came = in one at a time while I said Hey! It's Joe and look what he's got for = you while Joe walked up, stopped at the chair I wanted him to sit in and = I let Titan go up to accept the cookie. I called him to heel to repeat = this with John. We let the boys pet him for a minute and then did a = different cycle. I had the boys leave and wait for a signal. I moved the = chair farther away just in case, called the boys who came running in to = stop at the chair. I praised Titan for sitting quietly and let him go = get the cookie. We later had him sit while the boys ran in and out, = passed him stomping and yelling and at times, coming up with a cookie. While training Duncan, Kayce's dog, I was in an auto repair shop waiting = area with him. Duncan is a very social dog and had been very polite to = everyone. Suddenly he tensed and gave a low growl. When I looked around, = a neighbor was coming in apparently friendly and smiling. This was not = someone I knew socially but who has had several confrontations in the = area, been arrested for slashing tires and stealing firewood. Duncan did = nothing more than alert and growl softly. He remained quietly alert to = the man until he left. Had I not known this man's reputation but seen = Duncan's reaction I would have trusted his judgement and not reprimanded = him for the growl.=20 This did happen with his grandsire. I needed to pick up my car from the = same auto repair shop after dark along a street with light traffic and = few pedestrians. A man came up behind me asking for directions. He = seemed a bit strange, perhaps drunk or medicated. Thor was controlled = but stared and tensed. As we walked off, the man was several feet behind = but mumbling loudly. Thor had hair raised, was up on his toes and every = few steps glanced behind us. I agreed with him and we stopped to let him = water a lamp post. As the man passed us, he told me 'your dog didn't = like me being behind you,' laughed and walked on still mumbling. We = followed at a distance and Thor continued on alert, hair up and up on = his toes. The man was still rather odd as he turned off several blocks = before the store he asked directions to. Thor kept looking and listening = until he was out of sight and earshot. He then relaxed, and walked = calmly but alertly to the shop where he sucked up to the people there. It's possible this bitch has the potential to be a very good protection = dog. Or she may be overly fearful. Either way, an evaluation by an = experienced trainer will help. Kayce's cycles are very good and should = be safe to do as no unpleasant consequences are used.=20 Julie Alexander ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Pablo Hern=E1ndez=20 To: Ethology Posting=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 5:30 PM Subject: Territorial aggression Dear all, Apart from my introduction to you a few months ago, this is the first = time I write you. I need help. I've got a problem with a bitch (Boxer, two years old, not spayed) = showing a mild but very insidous problem of aggression towards strange = people on the street, probably caused by a poor socialization. I've = tried different techniques of desensitisation and counterconditioning = but all of them failed because of a very strong state of hypervigilance = (scanning). This attitude makes the animal very reactive to her = surroundings so, although we reward good behaviour when occurs, the = situation remains exactly the same as before the treatments because the = first part of the secuence of the problem doesn't vary. If the animal sees somebody far away from her, she fixes her attention = on her/him, resulting later, and only sometimes, in barking (bufff !!), = growling and raised hackles (more frequently at night). As she reacts so = soon when sees somebody at a very long distance, it's very difficult for = the owner to change her attitude, even rewarding for good behaviour when = occurs.=20 The last thing I've tried was to use paroxetin to reduce this attitude = but the results were not good. Have any of you any suggestion about this? Do you know any way to reduce = or eliminate this state of hypervigilance? Are there any medication = useful in these cases? Any comment will be very apreciated. Thanks to all. Best wishes, Pablo Hern=E1ndez=20 Vet. Med. (Spain)= From: IN%"pabliss@jazzfree.com" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pablo_Hern=E1ndez?=" 12-DEC-2002 17:12:26.88 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: Territorial Aggression II Dear all, First of all, thank you very much to all for your comments and interest. There has been many suggestions but unfortunately I've already tried = many of them (don't know if properly). =20 As Israel asked me more information, I'll try to tell you what I know = about this animal and all the things we tried. Hope this data answer = other questions you asked (Rudy de Meester, JM Engel, etc) Signalment: "Randy", Boxer, not spayed female, born on 28/07/00 (28 = months old), 23kg (50,70 pounds). History: bought on a pet shop around two months old. Lives in a flat = with two adult people and two cats. Owner feeds her with Eukanuba large = breeds. At night she sleeps outside the bedroom (before my visit the = owner closed her bedroom's door everynight). Walks three times a day = (mean 20 minutes each). No known illnesses but has false pregnancys = after each heat. She started professional obbedience training at about = seven months of age finishing it at twelve moths old. Problem: the first time I saw this bitch was in february' 02 because of = a problem of destruction and innapropiated elimination in the house when = she was alone at home and at night while the owner was sleeping. This = problem was treated as separation anxiety and was completely resolved in = about two months. Then, in june' 02 the owner contacted me because she wanted to solve = another problem the bitch has been showing as she started to go outside = for walks (three months and a half old). Before that time, this problem = was not so important because she was very worried about destructions and = elimination at home. The owner describes the problem as barking (buff!!!) and growling to = strange people during walks, specially at nights. She thought there was = a problem of vision with her dog because of that. "Randy" doesn't have = prefferences for sex, age or height of strange people but it's more = ussual if they are gipsy people (not very appreciated here in Spain), = construction workers or drug-dependent people. No matter what distance = these people are from the dog (2 meters or 100), she focuses her = attention on them and then, only sometimes, she raise hackles over the = shoulders and rump. At this point, sometimes she starts barking = (bbuff!!, bbuff!!) and very low pitch, almost innaudible, growling and = sometimes do nothing. One thing I think is interesting is that Randy = reacts more when there are just a few people on the street or just a = person in the surroundings (the owner lives in a quite solitary place in = suburbs of Madrid) and behaves much better if me or somebody else walks = with her and the owner. She reacts the same way whether she is on a = leash or not (although when I first see the case the owner used to walk = Randy off leash), but if she is free she approach the stimulus (barking) = stopping a few meters away from it. If somebody is walking the other = side of a street and she "activates", she never has tried to cross the = street to reach him/her (it's like a barrier for her). It's worth to say = that this attitude it's the same with things she encounter during walks = that ussually are not there (a box, a container). In all cases Randy = shows an offensive posture with ears and tail high and looking directly = to the stimulus (not stare). But the funny thing is that if somebody she = barks or growl at reach her and touch her, she is very friendly with = them and never has tried to bite or has do it. At home, she barks as = people ring the bell but never has been otherwise aggressive with people = entering the property. With other bitches, Randy doesn't get on very well. She has trouble if = there are males and females together, fighting with them (females) and = showing dominance attitudes. This situation worsens if she is in heat. Regards other aspects she is very obbedient, responding pretty well to = commands. I tried to give recommendations to the owner to make her more = "dominant" over Randy but she was doing everything (makes sit to give = what she wants, feeds after her, always cross doors first, etc). = Nowadays (since a month or so) Randy is wearing a Gentle Leader on walks = but this doesn=B4t make her more relaxed. She doesn't pull forward but = always need to walk slightly before the owner (I think to take control = of people). So, with all this I diagnosed a problem of territorial aggression caused = by a lack of socialization that makes the animal insecure on how to = behave with strangers until she has close contact with them. I think = there is an effect in the part of the owner as she describe herself as = very attentive to her surroundings. Nevertheless I've been not able of = detecting any sign of tension on the leash when someone aproach her = neither evident sign of distress on her. Also she has a competitive = aggression towards other bitches that is not treated at the moment. =20 The first thing we tried to do to solve the problem was using a clicker = to conditioning the animal to food to use it as reward for good = behavior. I proposed the owner an algorithm where if they encounter = somebody on the street she just had to wait until the animal looks at = her. If she did it, then click. The next step was clicking if Randy = turns her body to her owner and the next one if she walked to her. = Problem was that after that point and even if she reached the owner and = sit by her side, she walked again towards people and hypervigilance was = not modified. The next thing was trying to expose Randy to a lot of people in a park = (a famous place in Madrid where people use to walk). We walked the dog = on leash there every other day during a couple of months (summer) for an = hour or so each day. During these sessions she behaved quite well only = reacting a few times even at night. She was rewarded with click for not = to look for more than a second to people, for looking at the owner = instead and for not to change her walk direction towards people = (aproximately 30-40 times each session). In general, for ignoring people = passing by her at different distances. But the owner were not absolutely = satisfied with this progress because at home she reacted a little more = than in the park. So, I choose to change the reward and started to use a = ball. The change was great and we got Randy not reacting almost never to = people even near home. But, finishing october '02 the owner phones me because Randy was = reacting again in the same way she did before. The owner took the dog = with her for hollidays and there she started to react to people at night = (the place was a thermal bath residency). Then, at home the problem has = gone on until now. So, it's seems Randy didn't learn nothing in the past = or there is something that makes this bitch not able of been relaxed or = insecure. Because of that I tried paroxetin and a r/d diet (Hill's) to reduce her = hypervigilance and treat what I think is the root of the problem, but = she has not change her attitude. Together with that I change the = approach to the problem and at the time we are using obbedience = training, making Randy to walk on "heel" position a large part of the = walk, correcting aggression with aid of Gentle Leader and rewarding for = not reacting to people or when stops aggression. Using all of this I = don't see improvement in Randy's behaviour and it's for that I'm decided = to look for help of you. Hope this very extense letter is interesting for somebody (Cindy = Schulze). Anyway, I'd like to ask Suzanne Hetts (I know you are a reputated = specialist on behavior and I've read some of your papers in different = publications) if you still think there were not enough situations where = Randy behaved properly or if there is any mistake doing = counterconditioning. Do you believe main problem is emotional arousal? = Am I wrong using paroxetin to reduce it? I know it's quite difficult to = make a good idea of this case if you don't see it, but any suggestion = would very useful for me. To all of you, thanks very much for your advice and I'll try to put in = practice the most suitable ones for Randy and her owner. Best wishes, Pablo Hern=E1ndez Vet. Med. (Spain) From: IN%"pdic@btclick.com" "Pig Disease Information Centre UK" 12-DEC-2002 17:58:19.66 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: RE: Territorial Aggression - recalcitrant case Hi Pablo Thank-you for this interesting case history - so carefully described. What occurs to me on reading it is that I wonder if at least part of the problem is with the owner rather than the dog, what first made me suspicious was.. >>> ...growling to strange people during walks, specially at nights. She thought there was a problem of vision with her dog because of that. "Randy" doesn't have prefferences for sex, age or height of strange people but it's more ussual if they are gipsy people (not very appreciated here in Spain), construction workers or drug-dependent people. >>> sounds like the dog may be "tuning in" to the owner's own anxieties. If the dog's behaviour is a symptomatic behavioral expression of the "vibes" (subtle cues) it is picking up from the owner then we would expect resistance to remedial measures and relapses, which is what you have seen. The dog may be expressing anxiety symptoms on behalf of the owner, and one way of viewing symptoms is to see them as a "call for help" kind of expression of an underlying problem i.e. the dog may be an antenna for a problem that primarily lies with the owner. If this is true, only limied and unsatisfactory results will be obtained form seeing the problem as belonging to the dog. Does this make any sense? Regards MIke Meredith www.stress-counselling.co.uk ----- Or iginal Message ----- From: "Pablo Hernández" To: "Ethology Posting" Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:06 PM Subject: Territorial Aggression II Dear all, First of all, thank you very much to all for your comments and interest. There has been many suggestions but unfortunately I've already tried many of them (don't know if properly). As Israel asked me more information, I'll try to tell you what I know about this animal and all the things we tried. Hope this data answer other questions you asked (Rudy de Meester, JM Engel, etc) Signalment: "Randy", Boxer, not spayed female, born on 28/07/00 (28 months old), 23kg (50,70 pounds). History: bought on a pet shop around two months old. Lives in a flat with two adult people and two cats. Owner feeds her with Eukanuba large breeds. At night she sleeps outside the bedroom (before my visit the owner closed her bedroom's door everynight). Walks three times a day (mean 20 minutes each). No known illnesses but has false pregnancys after each heat. She started professional obbedience training at about seven months of age finishing it at twelve moths old. Problem: the first time I saw this bitch was in february' 02 because of a problem of destruction and innapropiated elimination in the house when she was alone at home and at night while the owner was sleeping. This problem was treated as separation anxiety and was completely resolved in about two months. Then, in june' 02 the owner contacted me because she wanted to solve another problem the bitch has been showing as she started to go outside for walks (three months and a half old). Before that time, this problem was not so important because she was very worried about destructions and elimination at home. The owner describes the problem as barking (buff!!!) and growling to strange people during walks, specially at nights. She thought there was a problem of vision with her dog because of that. "Randy" doesn't have prefferences for sex, age or height of strange people but it's more ussual if they are gipsy people (not very appreciated here in Spain), construction workers or drug-dependent people. No matter what distance these people are from the dog (2 meters or 100), she focuses her attention on them and then, only sometimes, she raise hackles over the shoulders and rump. At this point, sometimes she starts barking (bbuff!!, bbuff!!) and very low pitch, almost innaudible, growling and sometimes do nothing. One thing I think is interesting is that Randy reacts more when there are just a few people on the street or just a person in the surroundings (the owner lives in a quite solitary place in suburbs of Madrid) and behaves much better if me or somebody else walks with her and the owner. She reacts the same way whether she is on a leash or not (although when I first see the case the owner used to walk Randy off leash), but if she is free she approach the stimulus (barking) stopping a few meters away from it. If somebody is walking the other side of a street and she "activates", she never has tried to cross the street to reach him/her (it's like a barrier for her). It's worth to say that this attitude it's the same with things she encounter during walks that ussually are not there (a box, a container). In all cases Randy shows an offensive posture with ears and tail high and looking directly to the stimulus (not stare). But the funny thing is that if somebody she barks or growl at reach her and touch her, she is very friendly with them and never has tried to bite or has do it. At home, she barks as people ring the bell but never has been otherwise aggressive with people entering the property. With other bitches, Randy doesn't get on very well. She has trouble if there are males and females together, fighting with them (females) and showing dominance attitudes. This situation worsens if she is in heat. Regards other aspects she is very obbedient, responding pretty well to commands. I tried to give recommendations to the owner to make her more "dominant" over Randy but she was doing everything (makes sit to give what she wants, feeds after her, always cross doors first, etc). Nowadays (since a month or so) Randy is wearing a Gentle Leader on walks but this doesn´t make her more relaxed. She doesn't pull forward but always need to walk slightly before the owner (I think to take control of people). So, with all this I diagnosed a problem of territorial aggression caused by a lack of socialization that makes the animal insecure on how to behave with strangers until she has close contact with them. I think there is an effect in the part of the owner as she describe herself as very attentive to her surroundings. Nevertheless I've been not able of detecting any sign of tension on the leash when someone aproach her neither evident sign of distress on her. Also she has a competitive aggression towards other bitches that is not treated at the moment. The first thing we tried to do to solve the problem was using a clicker to conditioning the animal to food to use it as reward for good behavior. I proposed the owner an algorithm where if they encounter somebody on the street she just had to wait until the animal looks at her. If she did it, then click. The next step was clicking if Randy turns her body to her owner and the next one if she walked to her. Problem was that after that point and even if she reached the owner and sit by her side, she walked again towards people and hypervigilance was not modified. The next thing was trying to expose Randy to a lot of people in a park (a famous place in Madrid where people use to walk). We walked the dog on leash there every other day during a couple of months (summer) for an hour or so each day. During these sessions she behaved quite well only reacting a few times even at night. She was rewarded with click for not to look for more than a second to people, for looking at the owner instead and for not to change her walk direction towards people (aproximately 30-40 times each session). In general, for ignoring people passing by her at different distances. But the owner were not absolutely satisfied with this progress because at home she reacted a little more than in the park. So, I choose to change the reward and started to use a ball. The change was great and we got Randy not reacting almost never to people even near home. But, finishing october '02 the owner phones me because Randy was reacting again in the same way she did before. The owner took the dog with her for hollidays and there she started to react to people at night (the place was a thermal bath residency). Then, at home the problem has gone on until now. So, it's seems Randy didn't learn nothing in the past or there is something that makes this bitch not able of been relaxed or insecure. Because of that I tried paroxetin and a r/d diet (Hill's) to reduce her hypervigilance and treat what I think is the root of the problem, but she has not change her attitude. Together with that I change the approach to the problem and at the time we are using obbedience training, making Randy to walk on "heel" position a large part of the walk, correcting aggression with aid of Gentle Leader and rewarding for not reacting to people or when stops aggression. Using all of this I don't see improvement in Randy's behaviour and it's for that I'm decided to look for help of you. Hope this very extense letter is interesting for somebody (Cindy Schulze). Anyway, I'd like to ask Suzanne Hetts (I know you are a reputated specialist on behavior and I've read some of your papers in different publications) if you still think there were not enough situations where Randy behaved properly or if there is any mistake doing counterconditioning. Do you believe main problem is emotional arousal? Am I wrong using paroxetin to reduce it? I know it's quite difficult to make a good idea of this case if you don't see it, but any suggestion would very useful for me. To all of you, thanks very much for your advice and I'll try to put in practice the most suitable ones for Randy and her owner. Best wishes, Pablo Hernández Vet. Med. (Spain)