From: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?=" 1-DEC-2003 03:10:20.66 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"doggnponyshow@hotmail.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: problem behaviours in dogs Michalchik@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 11/30/2003 7:04:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, doggnponyshow@hotmail.com writes: Yep. Clomipramine in all but one case. That one the owner refuses to medicate. I cautioned that progress would be less, but she still chooses abstention. The others are progressing well. K You have to let her know that this is a medical problem, a malfunction in the brain that doesn't happen in dogs whose brain chemistry is normal. Depriving the dog of a medication that could help it be healthy is as misguided as refusing to treat a dog with an infection with penicillin because of the notion that a dogs immune system should be able to fight the infection off. Another analogy. If a dog is lame because of a broken leg you can try a purely behavioral approach and teach the dog to walk in spite of the broken leg, or you can get the leg set by the vet and then try and rehabilitate the dogs ability to walk. Either case may work to some degree, but the later will work faster, has a better chance of reaching a successful conclusion, and is far less cruel to the dog. This superstitious disdain of medication is something that I have seen hurt both humans and animals. Yes, medications sometimes do have undesirable side-effects and can cause worse problems than they cure, but these are the exceptions. Further, and more importantly, almost all side-effects are reversible, so if you don't like the side--effects just stop taking the medication or reduce the dose. The psychological trauma of the suffering associated with an untreated illness is far less reversible than the side-effects of the medication. If you wish to share this email with her. Please do so. Dear Michalchik, doggnponyshow and all, Could you enlighten us (perhaps we missed the pertinent message) about what particular medical problem / problem behaviour you are referring to? I'm struggling to think of a behavioural 'problem' that could be analogous to a broken limb in 'requiring' medical treatment ... but obviously without knowing the nature of the problem it's impossible to speculate. Best wishes, ....................................................................................................... Foundation of Applied and Knowledgeable Ethologists (Why spoil a good story with the facts?) --------------------------------- Download Yahoo! Messenger now for a chance to WIN Robbie Williams "Live At Knebworth DVD" From: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" "h.m." 1-DEC-2003 10:12:57.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: falconry Someone posted good accounts of what the relationship is like between falcon and handler (falcon expected handler to work harder ; ) ) and I was wondering if more stories could be posted or reference to books/articles about this. Thanks, h.mcmurray From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" 2-DEC-2003 06:50:19.88 To: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: falconry > Someone posted good accounts of what the relationship is like between > falcon and handler (falcon expected handler to work harder ; ) ) and I > was wondering if more stories could be posted or reference to > books/articles about this. > > Thanks, > h.mcmurray Hi Heather, I have recently had a chance to work with raptors and raptor trainers and found the relationship fairly typical of relationships in general. We used the same technique we use with everything else and had a bird who had been unresponsive to other attempts to train, coming over and targetting various body parts, and targetting for a duration - all in a single session (went from jesses to at large in an aviary, also). We also had a condor targetting with just tactile reinforcement, within a few minutes. All birds picked up discriminations very quickly. The tasks of falconry, while oriented toward hunting, should still be easy to communicate. The birds,new to me, came over to work and interact almost immediately (free within their aviaries) Best, Kayce Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com From: IN%"pajor@purdue.edu" "Pajor, Edmond A." 2-DEC-2003 11:43:11.93 To: IN%"ISAEnet-l@usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Job Announcement Just a reminder that applications are due before Dec. 15. Ed Animal Ethologist Position Announcement Department of Animal Sciences, Purdue University POSITION: Tenure-track faculty position in farm animal ethology. The appointment will include research (majority) and teaching. RESPONSIBILITIES: The successful applicant will establish a vigorous externally funded research program in animal ethology that is relevant to livestock and (or) poultry production. The faculty member will be a member of the Department's core program in animal well-being and will participate in teaching and advising of both undergraduate and graduate students. Collaboration is expected with scientists studying the genetic, physiological, or neuroendocrine aspects of livestock and (or) poultry behavior. Development of productive interdepartmental collaborations is also essential. Opportunities for interdisciplinary research exist with faculty in other departments and schools, the Center for Food Animal Productivity and Well-Being (http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/CAWB/), and the USDA-ARS Livestock Behavior Research Unit at Purdue University (http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/usda/). RANK AND SALARY: Assistant or Associate Professor (academic year appointment). Rank and salary are commensurate with qualifications. QUALIFICATIONS: Ph.D. in animal sciences, life sciences, or a related area. Postdoctoral experience and an understanding of livestock and (or) poultry production are preferred. Evidence of teaching success is important. The ability to work as part of a team and the ability to interact with students, government agencies, livestock industry, commodity groups, media and the general public are essential. Candidates with experience or the desire to develop international dimensions of the discipline are preferred. APPLICATIONS: Review of applications will begin December 15, 2003 and will continue until the position is filled. Candidates should submit a letter of application, statements describing their research and teaching interests, official transcripts, names of three individuals that can serve as references, and a detailed curriculum vita that includes education, experience, additional qualifications, and publications to: Alan L. Grant, Professor & Head Department of Animal Sciences Purdue University 915 W. State St. West Lafayette, IN 47907-2054 Phone: (765) 494-4808 Fax (765) 494-9346 Email: agrant@purdue.edu URL: http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/ Purdue University is an Equal Opportunity/Equal Access/Affirmative Action Employer Dr. Ed Pajor. Ph.D. Animal welfare and behavior Dept. of Animal Sciences Purdue University Poultry Science Building 125 S.Russell Street West Lafayette, IN 47904-2042 PH: 765-496-6665 Fax 765-494-9347 Email: pajor@purdue.edu From: IN%"billcamp@uci.net" "Bill Campbell" 3-DEC-2003 17:32:16.32 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: problem behaviours in dogs Clomipramine Help! I've searched and cannot find any objective evidence that describes an observable (as in an infection or broken leg) functional neuro-chemical CNS malfunction of serotonin and norepinephrine. Any citations would be appreciated. Bill Campbell BehavioRx Systems PO Box 1658 Grants Pass, OR 97528 in a message dated 11/30/2003 7:04:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, doggnponyshow@hotmail.com writes: Yep. Clomipramine in all but one case. That one the owner refuses to medicate. I cautioned that progress would be less, but she still chooses abstention. The others are progressing well. K You have to let her know that this is a medical problem, a malfunction in the brain that doesn't happen in dogs whose brain chemistry is normal. Depriving the dog of a medication that could help it be healthy is as misguided as refusing to treat a dog with an infection with penicillin because of the notion that a dogs immune system should be able to fight the infection off. Another analogy. If a dog is lame because of a broken leg you can try a purely behavioral approach and teach the dog to walk in spite of the broken leg, or you can get the leg set by the vet and then try and rehabilitate the dogs ability to walk. Either case may work to some degree, but the later will work faster, has a better chance of reaching a successful conclusion, and is far less cruel to the dog. This superstitious disdain of medication is something that I have seen hurt both humans and animals. Yes, medications sometimes do have undesirable side-effects and can cause worse problems than they cure, but these are the exceptions. Further, and more importantly, almost all side-effects are reversible, so if you don't like the side--effects just stop taking the medication or reduce the dose. The psychological trauma of the suffering associated with an untreated illness is far less reversible than the side-effects of the medication. If you wish to share this email with her. Please do so. From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 3-DEC-2003 18:36:26.50 To: IN%"billcamp@uci.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: problem behaviours in dogs Clomipramine You didn't try very hard: Neurobiology and clinical pharmacology of obsessive-compulsive disorder. Clin Neuropharmacol 2001 Jul-Aug;24(4):191-207 (ISSN: 0362-5664) Micallef J; Blin O Centre de Pharmacologie et d'Evaluations Therapeutiques and Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Universite de la Mediterranee, Developpement et Pathologie du Mouvement, Timone University Hospital, Marseille, France. Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) is a brain disorder with recognizable periods of onset, course, familial occurrence, epidemiology, phenomenology, and treatment response. Several manifestations of pathophysiology are beginning to be defined, although they may represent intermediate pathophysiology rather than primary etiology. Positron emission tomography studies have consistently identified hypermetabolism in the orbitofrontal cortex, caudate nucleus, and, sometimes, anterior cingulate cortex. Neuropsychologic testing frequently identifies abnormalities in visuospatial function. Abnormal levels of cerebrospinal fluid neurotransmitters and neuromodulators are identifiable in untreated patients with OCD and return toward normal levels after effective treatment. The most consistent pathophysiologic finding in OCD points toward an abnormality in serotonin neurotransmission. Therapeutic response to selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and the absence of improvement with norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors and dopamine antagonists argue strongly for a role of serotonin in the pathophysiology and treatment of OCD. Despite this clear indication from treatment trials, probes and manipulations of the serotonin system and its specific receptors have not provided a useful understanding of specific abnormalities. Clomipramine or potent selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors are the pharmacotherapy of choice for OCD, with a more limited role reserved for monoamine oxidase inhibitors. If one selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor is ineffective, others may be beneficial, in addition to the different proserotonergic and nonserotonergic augmentation strategies that could be useful in treatment of resistant OCD patients. Nondrug therapies are also important in OCD: behavioral therapy is frequently helpful and neurosurgery is sometimes helpful when other treatments fail. From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 3-DEC-2003 18:38:04.64 To: IN%"billcamp@uci.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: problem behaviours in dogs Clomipramine This search might be good for you. http://intapp.medscape.com/px/medlineapp/search?getcount=200&advanced=0&releva nce=100&wordvars=on&getchunk=20&relevance_sort=on&concept_mapping=on&ray=on&se archstring=neurotransmitter+obsessive+compulsive+clomipramine%0D%0A&searchlogi c=fuzzy&authors=&journals=&earliestseg=UM98993X%2C1998&latestseg=UMA3C01X%2C20 03&submit.x=9&submit.y=9 From: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz" 3-DEC-2003 18:49:22.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: problem behaviours in dogs Clomipramine You didn't try very hard: Such lovely manners - I thought 'put-downs' had been established as one of the reasons for people leaving the list - is this really necessary? Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 3-DEC-2003 19:05:10.55 To: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: problem behaviours in dogs Clomipramine In a message dated 12/3/2003 4:52:18 PM Pacific Standard Time,=20 wheep@igrin.co.nz writes: Such lovely manners =E2=80=93 I thought =E2=80=98put-downs=E2=80=99 had been= established as one of=20 the reasons for people leaving the list =E2=80=93 is this really necessary? All right, I apologize. It was unnecessary. From: IN%"topnotchdog@mindspring.com" "Barbara Shumannfang" 3-DEC-2003 19:39:43.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology'" CC: Subj: safaris Hello list members, Can anyone point me to a reference that helps a lay person understand the differences (or relationships) between safaris for hunting, photography, and research trips to learn more about African animals? Through the use of evidence I would like to be able to confirm or call into question the notion that hunting such animals is necessary for the survival of the species in question, the villagers who eat the killed animals, and to the benefit of researchers and conservationists who profit from the high fees paid per animal. A friend of mine was told that for many of the animals, the only reason they are still in existence is safaris and the high fees paid per animal killed. I am interested in alternative points of view to offer a grade school principal who sends his students to the house of someone who has filled it with heads of animals he has killed, including zebra, various antelope species, elephant, giraffe, and others. I was approached by a parent who objects to this "field trip" and wishes the school to consider alternative ways of teaching the children about the animals. The principal is very taken with the hunter's explanation, who emphasizes that the heads he displays are not trophies and that he has worked closely with some African governments for over 30 years to the benefit of the aforementioned parties. Many thanks, Barbara Shumannfang From: IN%"doggnponyshow@hotmail.com" "Kasie McGee" 3-DEC-2003 20:47:50.19 To: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk", IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: problem behaviours in dogs Sorry, everyone. I had replied privately to Michael regarding tail chasing, and what a serious, real problem it could be for stock dogs. His reply was regarding medicating the problem dogs. K >From: Laika the astronaut >To: Michalchik@aol.com, doggnponyshow@hotmail.com, >applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Re: problem behaviours in dogs >Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 09:09:29 +0000 (GMT) > >Michalchik@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 11/30/2003 7:04:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, >doggnponyshow@hotmail.com writes: >Yep. Clomipramine in all but one case. That one the owner refuses to >medicate. I cautioned that progress would be less, but she still chooses >abstention. The others are progressing well. > >K >You have to let her know that this is a medical problem, a malfunction in >the brain that doesn't happen in dogs whose brain chemistry is normal. >Depriving the dog of a medication that could help it be healthy is as >misguided as refusing to treat a dog with an infection with penicillin >because of the notion that a dogs immune system should be able to fight the >infection off. > >Another analogy. If a dog is lame because of a broken leg you can try a >purely behavioral approach and teach the dog to walk in spite of the broken >leg, or you can get the leg set by the vet and then try and rehabilitate >the dogs ability to walk. Either case may work to some degree, but the >later will work faster, has a better chance of reaching a successful >conclusion, and is far less cruel to the dog. > >This superstitious disdain of medication is something that I have seen hurt >both humans and animals. Yes, medications sometimes do have undesirable >side-effects and can cause worse problems than they cure, but these are the >exceptions. Further, and more importantly, almost all side-effects are >reversible, so if you don't like the side--effects just stop taking the >medication or reduce the dose. The psychological trauma of the suffering >associated with an untreated illness is far less reversible than the >side-effects of the medication. > >If you wish to share this email with her. Please do so. > > >Dear Michalchik, doggnponyshow and all, >Could you enlighten us (perhaps we missed the pertinent message) about what >particular medical problem / problem behaviour you are referring to? I'm >struggling to think of a behavioural 'problem' that could be analogous to a >broken limb in 'requiring' medical treatment ... but obviously without >knowing the nature of the problem it's impossible to speculate. > >Best wishes, > > > > > >....................................................................................................... >Foundation of Applied and Knowledgeable Ethologists >(Why spoil a good story with the facts?) > >--------------------------------- >Download Yahoo! Messenger now for a chance to WIN Robbie Williams "Live At >Knebworth DVD" _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads and busy signals? Get a high-speed Internet connection! Comparison-shop your local high-speed providers here. https://broadband.msn.com From: IN%"billcamp@uci.net" "Bill Campbell" 4-DEC-2003 12:52:11.31 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: problem behaviours in dogs Clomipramine Dear M, et.al., I've copied from the Micallef/Blin paper, then pasted here what, to my mind, is the operant statement from this study's conclusions relative to my original query. Several people have sent me further citations and I'll report any successes. Thanks to all, Bill Campbell BehavioRx Systems PO Box 1658 Grants Pass, OR 97528 (snip) "Despite this clear indication from treatment trials, probes and manipulations of the serotonin system and its specific receptors have not provided a useful understanding of specific abnormalities." (snip) Neurobiology and clinical pharmacology of obsessive-compulsive disorder. Clin Neuropharmacol 2001 Jul-Aug;24(4):191-207 (ISSN: 0362-5664) Micallef J; Blin O Centre de Pharmacologie et d'Evaluations Therapeutiques and Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Universite de la Mediterranee, Developpement et Pathologie du Mouvement, Timone University Hospital, Marseille, France. *Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) is a brain disorder with recognizable periods of onset, course, familial occurrence, epidemiology, phenomenology, and treatment response. Several manifestations of pathophysiology are beginning to be defined, although they may represent intermediate pathophysiology rather than primary etiology. Positron emission tomography studies have consistently identified hypermetabolism in the orbitofrontal cortex, caudate nucleus, and, sometimes, anterior cingulate cortex. Neuropsychologic testing frequently identifies abnormalities in visuospatial function. Abnormal levels of cerebrospinal fluid neurotransmitters and neuromodulators are identifiable in untreated patients with OCD and return toward normal levels after effective treatment. The most consistent pathophysiologic finding in OCD points toward an abnormality in serotonin neurotransmission. Therapeutic response to selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and the absence of improvement with norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors and dopamine antagonists argue strongly for a role of serotonin in the pathophysiology and treatment of OCD. *Despite this clear indication from treatment trials, probes and manipulations of the serotonin system and its specific receptors have not provided a useful understanding of specific abnormalities.* Clomipramine or potent selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors are the pharmacotherapy of choice for OCD, with a more limited role reserved for monoamine oxidase inhibitors. If one selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor is ineffective, others may be beneficial, in addition to the different proserotonergic and nonserotonergic augmentation strategies that could be useful in treatment of resistant OCD patients. Nondrug therapies are also important in OCD: behavioral therapy is frequently helpful and neurosurgery is sometimes helpful when other treatments fail." From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 4-DEC-2003 15:31:24.43 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: problem behaviours in dogs Dogs do chase their tails in play. They also chase and chew their tails when they have anal gland pain, or fleas, or various other forms of pain and irritation eg spinal pain, tail pain. But when they chase and chew their tails to the exclusion of eating playing walking or participating in life, then it is evidence of a psychiatric disorder such as a stereotypy or obsessive compulsive disorder. I have treated dogs successfully with this condition; but they are not all successful. It is a very serious condition. Clomiprimine or fluoxetine are the best drugs in my experience. Sometimes alprazolam needs to be added in conjunction in an extreme case. I saw a brindle Staffordshire terrier that had chewed its tail through. This dog required tail docking, high dose clomiprimine 6-12 months, decreased arousal, regular play and walks to give some routine and predictability, slow release food but only certain kinds because any frustration increased tail chasing behaviour. A head bucket was left on the dog whenever the owner could not be present to distract the dog from tail chasing if it began. The bucket was left on at night and while the owner was at work. The bucket was reduced in size very slowly. This is such an in depth topic whole books could be devoted to it but white male bull terriers are at risk, so it carries a genetic component. I have also recently treated a mostly white cattle dog cross with a similar problem but this dog chased and chewed his foreleg, following a traumatic incident where the dog was attacked by a Pomeranian while it was on lead so it was prevented from retaliating. This dogs foreleg was mauled b the smaller dog. He began attacking his foreleg as soon as he came home from the vets after having it sutured. The initial injury was mid shaft, not near a joint. The owner had extensive investigations for joint mice etc etc but it was all normal. She took some convincing that the dog had a psychiatric condition. As I said, books can be written on this topic. Jackie Perkins Veterinary Behavioural Consulting Australia -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 3:36 AM To: doggnponyshow@hotmail.com; michael.meredith@btconnect.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: problem behaviours in dogs Naive question. I s tail chasing really a behavior problem or just a form of play? If we had tails wouldn't our kids chase them? From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 4-DEC-2003 15:48:24.27 To: IN%"m.dierendonck@planet.nl", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation My work is original. I "made it up" from the three references supplied. Try this website for the Ladewig reference: http://www2.vet.upenn.edu/labs/equinebehavior/index.htm I think I found the Feh reference on the internet too, I shall attempt to find it again and supply the reference. It may be on the abovementioned website too. =20 Feh C. 2000 Relationships and Communication in Socially Natural Horse Herds University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Science Houpt k 1998 Domestic Animal Behaviour for Veterinarians and Animal Scientists Iowas State University Press=20 Ladewig J. 2001 Ontogeny: Preparing the Foal for its Adult Life The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University Copenhagen -----Original Message----- From: Machteld van Dierendonck [mailto:m.dierendonck@planet.nl]=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 7:16 AM To: 'Geiger' Subject: RE: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi Geiger, The list you mention is very similar to Daniel Mills book. However I an interested in the references you mention. I looked at every possible reference concerning the Feh article, but the reference it to uncomplete to find. Is it in a book? As far as I am aware, Claudia has never been working at Penn State. Also where had Jan (Ladewig) published this. Please sent me the complete references. Machteld =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Machteld van Dierendonck Equid ethologist Utrecht University =09 Faculty of Veterinary sciences=09 Dept. Animal & Society / Equine sciences=09 Ethology & Welfare group =09 Yalelaan 17=20 PO box 80168=09 3508 TD Utrecht =09 The Netherlands =09 Tel +31-30-253.2446 (Tuesdays) or 2615 (secretary) m.c.vandierendonck@vet.uu.nl=A0 -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]=20 Sent: zondag 23 november 2003 23:17 To: 'Gry L=F8berg'; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: RE: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi Gry, I have done the following research recently on the subject. It is referenced. Regards, Jackie Perkins Veterinary Behaviour Consulting, Australia The Developmental Periods of the Horse Described 1. Neonatal period lasts about 2 hours during which time the foal learns to stand, walk, actually find the udder, lye down, and follow the mare. 2. Sensory development period lasts for the next 2 weeks during which the foal stays close to the mare learning behaviour strategies from her and from its environment. Too little sensory exposure at this time can result in a diminished sensory capacity. Within the first day the foal masters locomotion, solitary play, grazing, grooming, urination, flehmen, and communication. 3. The socialization phase lasts from around 4 weeks to 4 months during which time the foal learns social play, mutual grooming, and appeasement of adult horses by mouth clapping.=20 4. Independence is learned from 4 months of age onwards. The foal acquires adult patterns of behaviour, spacial relationships, social interactions and maintenance behaviours.=20 5. Weaning occurs at around 7 months, initiated by the mother some 15 weeks prior to her next foal=92s birth. 6. Juvenile period sees a reduction in play behaviour. 2 and 3 year olds are more active than adults. 97% of colts and 81% of fillies leave their natal band. Colts join other males to form bachelor bands, they spend most of their time play fighting. At 5 years of age he is able to take over or gather his own herd.=20 Feh C. 2000 Relationships and Communication in Socially Natural Horse Herds University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Science Houpt k 1998 Domestic Animal Behaviour for Veterinarians and Animal Scientists Iowas State University Press=20 Ladewig J. 2001 Ontogeny: Preparing the Foal for its Adult Life The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University Copenhagen -----Original Message----- From: Gry L=F8berg [mailto:post@gry.no]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 6:14 PM To: apbc4_um@ftech.net; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi all We are in Norway making lots of new laws and regulations regarding animals. We have a new dog-law, a new animal welfare law, new regulations ragarding keeping dogs outside in pens, and about housing and management of horses. I am together with some partners kommenting on the regulations regrding horses, and need some help with information and references. One of the suggestion is saying: "Horses should have enough social experience with people early in life to prevent them from beeing frightend of people and their environment" We would like to be more specific here, I know they have an imprintingperiod, but do horses have a sensitive period for socialisation and habituation? I have not found anything about it in the litterature so far. If you do have any information about this I would be pleased if you could let med know. Gry L=F8berg =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DDeze = e-mail is door E-mail VirusScanner van Planet Internet gecontroleerd op virussen. Op http://www.planet.nl/evs staat een verwijzing naar de actuele lijst waar op wordt gecontroleerd. From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 5-DEC-2003 06:34:02.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology'" CC: Subj: RE: safaris "Barbara Shumannfang" Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 5:39 PM > Hello list members, > > Can anyone point me to a reference that helps a lay person understand > the differences (or relationships) between safaris for hunting, > photography, and research trips to learn more about African animals? margory cohen: Just cruising through posts a little - I recommend a book by Robin Page entitled _The Hunting Gene_ . Not safari specific, not African hunting specific but I think this an excellent beginning no matter where or who is hunting what. From time to time I've also found a range of sites on=line where conservation in Africa is the focus and no doubt some of those also will have resources, sources for your quest. -margory cohen San Francisco From: IN%"Eva.Sondergaard@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Eva_S=F8ndergaard?=" 5-DEC-2003 07:29:41.34 To: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"post@gry.no" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Gry_L=F8berg?=", IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" CC: Subj: SV: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Dear Gry (and Andy and "Geiger") I am in the Danish working group on legislations for keeping horses and = know the Norwegian suggestion as well. I think the research on imprinting in foals show contradictory results = and it is in my opinion definitely NOT clear that horses do have an = "imprinting period". I don't know of much work directly on a sensitive = period for socialisation and habitiation except from a french study by = Lansade et al. Lansade, L., Bertrand, M., Boivin, X., Bouissou, M-F. = 2003. Effect of handling during the neonatal period or at weaning on = manageability and reactivity of foals. Paper presented at the 54th = Annual Meeting of the European Association for Animal Production 31 = August - 3 September 2003, Rome, Italy. 8p. An abstract was also = published in the ISAE proceedings from 2001. This paper actually = concludes that handling at weaning is more effective than handling at = birth. Despite the inconclusive scientific results, I think, it is important to = handle foals and if you do it early (but not necessarily right after = birth) the job will be more easy. I don't think you on a scientific = basis can be more precise than mentioned in the regulations but you = could give some good advice on how to handle foals and what they need to = learn to fulfill the intentions of the regulations, and to avoid the = possible comlications mentioned by Andy Beck. I have just written an = article about it (in Danish) for a horse magasine and can sent you a = copy if you like. I don't agree with Andy that it may be good for the = horse to keep some fearfulness (except for the feral horses), especially = not in Scandinavian conditions where you often have to handle and deal = with horses where space is limited. Handling a fearful colt in a small = (indoor) area may be very dangerous and in my opinion this is not good = welfare.=20 The work mentioned by Jackie Perkins (Geiger)is not based on = experimental work (I am co-author on the paper by Jan Ladewig) but on = evidence from other mammals that such periods exist. I don't think it = proves that horses have a socialisation period for humans as the one in = dogs, and I think the work metioned above from Lansade et al., may = indicate that it is not time (age) but other factors that determine how = sensitive horses are to handling.=20 Regards Eva S=F8ndergaard Ph.d. in horse behaviour -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sendt: 13. november 2003 02:46 Til: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Emne: RE: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Gry L=F8berg wrote: "Horses should have enough social experience with people early in life = to prevent them from being frightened of people and their environment" Perhaps in some perfect situation this might be possible - but, even if = it were, would it necessarily be good welfare? Fear is an essential = survival trait - and in the case of the horse all environmental novelty is potentially threatening, and therefore a source of possible fear. = Without any novelty the environment is bland, predictable and likely to produce = some degree of sensory deprivation, and, it might reasonably be suggested, = poor welfare.=20 Equally would there not be a requirement for the people that provide the social experience to all behave in a way that is predictable and = constant (as far as the perception of horses is concerned) across a wide number = of people? Given that there is no real consensus in training or handling methods as yet how would it be possible to prevent such, generally, = negative elements as 'learned helplessness' or 'learned laziness' being built-in = to the paradigm of management? The mere fact of exposure to interaction = with people does not, by or in itself, guarantee a lack of fear - in fact = were the current trend in 'round-pen' use, or, equally, other methods = modelled on the concept of 'dominance' to continue (I have no knowledge of whether = this is done in Norway) then contact with people could easily produce fear = rather than prevent it. I think there may also be some, albeit anecdotal, evidence to support = the contention that nervousness, in some individuals, decreases with = maturity. If this were to be true then it might well be better to leave well alone until the horse has a more mature character before expecting social = contact. Are there no feral horses in Norway? For, if there are, how would such = an aim impact them?=20 If welfare legislation is to be drawn up would it not better be based on maximising provision of the 5 freedoms? Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz =20 -----Original Message----- From: Gry L=F8berg [mailto:post@gry.no]=20 Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 9:14 p.m. To: apbc4_um@ftech.net; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi all We are in Norway making lots of new laws and regulations regarding = animals. We have a new dog-law, a new animal welfare law, new regulations = regarding keeping dogs outside in pens, and about housing and management of = horses. I am together with some partners commenting on the regulations regarding horses, and need some help with information and references. One of the suggestion is saying: "Horses should have enough social experience with people early in life to prevent them from being = frightened of people and their environment" We would like to be more specific here, I know they have an imprinting period, but do horses have a sensitive period for = socialisation and habituation? I have not found anything about it in the literature so far. If you do have any information about this I would be pleased if you could let med know. Gry L=F8berg From: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz" 5-DEC-2003 08:00:30.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi Eva - I think you are misquoting me in this case. Read my posting = again and you will find that at no point did I state that it is good for the = horse to have some fear as you suggest - the point I was making had to do specifically with the environment - unless it is kept very bland it is simply not possible to prevent fear totally. Fear is a very natural and essential survival mechanism for the horse or any other animal, and therefore not something one either should, or could, eradicate.=20 As fear tends to block learning, quite apart from also being potentially dangerous to both horse and handler in any training environment, whether small or not, it would be very strange if, after more than thirty years working with horses, I were to suggest that horses should be kept = scared. Clearly you have misunderstood me.=20 I certainly am suggesting that environments that are so boring that they amount to sensory deprivation equate to poor welfare. This is very = different from suggesting that a horse be deliberately kept fearful - which would equate to psychological abuse. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz =20 -----Original Message----- From: Eva S=F8ndergaard [mailto:Eva.Sondergaard@agrsci.dk]=20 Sent: Saturday, 6 December 2003 2:29 a.m. To: wheep@igrin.co.nz; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca; Gry L=F8berg; = Geiger Subject: SV: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Dear Gry (and Andy and "Geiger") I am in the Danish working group on legislations for keeping horses and = know the Norwegian suggestion as well. I think the research on imprinting in foals show contradictory results = and it is in my opinion definitely NOT clear that horses do have an = "imprinting period". I don't know of much work directly on a sensitive period for socialisation and habitiation except from a french study by Lansade et = al. Lansade, L., Bertrand, M., Boivin, X., Bouissou, M-F. 2003. Effect of handling during the neonatal period or at weaning on manageability and reactivity of foals. Paper presented at the 54th Annual Meeting of the European Association for Animal Production 31 August - 3 September 2003, Rome, Italy. 8p. An abstract was also published in the ISAE proceedings = from 2001. This paper actually concludes that handling at weaning is more effective than handling at birth. Despite the inconclusive scientific results, I think, it is important to handle foals and if you do it early (but not necessarily right after = birth) the job will be more easy. I don't think you on a scientific basis can = be more precise than mentioned in the regulations but you could give some = good advice on how to handle foals and what they need to learn to fulfill the intentions of the regulations, and to avoid the possible comlications mentioned by Andy Beck. I have just written an article about it (in = Danish) for a horse magasine and can sent you a copy if you like. I don't agree = with Andy that it may be good for the horse to keep some fearfulness (except = for the feral horses), especially not in Scandinavian conditions where you = often have to handle and deal with horses where space is limited. Handling a fearful colt in a small (indoor) area may be very dangerous and in my opinion this is not good welfare.=20 The work mentioned by Jackie Perkins (Geiger)is not based on = experimental work (I am co-author on the paper by Jan Ladewig) but on evidence from = other mammals that such periods exist. I don't think it proves that horses = have a socialisation period for humans as the one in dogs, and I think the work metioned above from Lansade et al., may indicate that it is not time = (age) but other factors that determine how sensitive horses are to handling.=20 Regards Eva S=F8ndergaard Ph.d. in horse behaviour -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sendt: 13. november 2003 02:46 Til: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Emne: RE: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Gry L=F8berg wrote: "Horses should have enough social experience with people early in life = to prevent them from being frightened of people and their environment" Perhaps in some perfect situation this might be possible - but, even if = it were, would it necessarily be good welfare? Fear is an essential = survival trait - and in the case of the horse all environmental novelty is potentially threatening, and therefore a source of possible fear. = Without any novelty the environment is bland, predictable and likely to produce = some degree of sensory deprivation, and, it might reasonably be suggested, = poor welfare.=20 Equally would there not be a requirement for the people that provide the social experience to all behave in a way that is predictable and = constant (as far as the perception of horses is concerned) across a wide number = of people? Given that there is no real consensus in training or handling methods as yet how would it be possible to prevent such, generally, = negative elements as 'learned helplessness' or 'learned laziness' being built-in = to the paradigm of management? The mere fact of exposure to interaction = with people does not, by or in itself, guarantee a lack of fear - in fact = were the current trend in 'round-pen' use, or, equally, other methods = modelled on the concept of 'dominance' to continue (I have no knowledge of whether = this is done in Norway) then contact with people could easily produce fear = rather than prevent it. I think there may also be some, albeit anecdotal, evidence to support = the contention that nervousness, in some individuals, decreases with = maturity. If this were to be true then it might well be better to leave well alone until the horse has a more mature character before expecting social = contact. Are there no feral horses in Norway? For, if there are, how would such = an aim impact them?=20 If welfare legislation is to be drawn up would it not better be based on maximising provision of the 5 freedoms? Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz =20 -----Original Message----- From: Gry L=F8berg [mailto:post@gry.no]=20 Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 9:14 p.m. To: apbc4_um@ftech.net; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi all We are in Norway making lots of new laws and regulations regarding = animals. We have a new dog-law, a new animal welfare law, new regulations = regarding keeping dogs outside in pens, and about housing and management of = horses. I am together with some partners commenting on the regulations regarding horses, and need some help with information and references. One of the suggestion is saying: "Horses should have enough social experience with people early in life to prevent them from being = frightened of people and their environment" We would like to be more specific here, I know they have an imprinting period, but do horses have a sensitive period for = socialisation and habituation? I have not found anything about it in the literature so far. If you do have any information about this I would be pleased if you could let med know. Gry L=F8berg From: IN%"Eva.Sondergaard@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Eva_S=F8ndergaard?=" 5-DEC-2003 08:24:05.45 To: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: SV: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi Andy I am sorry if I misunderstood your first mail. This mail at least make = things clear and I agree on your points. Regards, Eva -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sendt: 5. december 2003 15:00 Til: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Emne: RE: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi Eva - I think you are misquoting me in this case. Read my posting = again and you will find that at no point did I state that it is good for the = horse to have some fear as you suggest - the point I was making had to do specifically with the environment - unless it is kept very bland it is simply not possible to prevent fear totally. Fear is a very natural and essential survival mechanism for the horse or any other animal, and therefore not something one either should, or could, eradicate.=20 As fear tends to block learning, quite apart from also being potentially dangerous to both horse and handler in any training environment, whether small or not, it would be very strange if, after more than thirty years working with horses, I were to suggest that horses should be kept = scared. Clearly you have misunderstood me.=20 I certainly am suggesting that environments that are so boring that they amount to sensory deprivation equate to poor welfare. This is very = different from suggesting that a horse be deliberately kept fearful - which would equate to psychological abuse. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz =20 -----Original Message----- From: Eva S=F8ndergaard [mailto:Eva.Sondergaard@agrsci.dk]=20 Sent: Saturday, 6 December 2003 2:29 a.m. To: wheep@igrin.co.nz; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca; Gry L=F8berg; = Geiger Subject: SV: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Dear Gry (and Andy and "Geiger") I am in the Danish working group on legislations for keeping horses and = know the Norwegian suggestion as well. I think the research on imprinting in foals show contradictory results = and it is in my opinion definitely NOT clear that horses do have an = "imprinting period". I don't know of much work directly on a sensitive period for socialisation and habitiation except from a french study by Lansade et = al. Lansade, L., Bertrand, M., Boivin, X., Bouissou, M-F. 2003. Effect of handling during the neonatal period or at weaning on manageability and reactivity of foals. Paper presented at the 54th Annual Meeting of the European Association for Animal Production 31 August - 3 September 2003, Rome, Italy. 8p. An abstract was also published in the ISAE proceedings = from 2001. This paper actually concludes that handling at weaning is more effective than handling at birth. Despite the inconclusive scientific results, I think, it is important to handle foals and if you do it early (but not necessarily right after = birth) the job will be more easy. I don't think you on a scientific basis can = be more precise than mentioned in the regulations but you could give some = good advice on how to handle foals and what they need to learn to fulfill the intentions of the regulations, and to avoid the possible comlications mentioned by Andy Beck. I have just written an article about it (in = Danish) for a horse magasine and can sent you a copy if you like. I don't agree = with Andy that it may be good for the horse to keep some fearfulness (except = for the feral horses), especially not in Scandinavian conditions where you = often have to handle and deal with horses where space is limited. Handling a fearful colt in a small (indoor) area may be very dangerous and in my opinion this is not good welfare.=20 The work mentioned by Jackie Perkins (Geiger)is not based on = experimental work (I am co-author on the paper by Jan Ladewig) but on evidence from = other mammals that such periods exist. I don't think it proves that horses = have a socialisation period for humans as the one in dogs, and I think the work metioned above from Lansade et al., may indicate that it is not time = (age) but other factors that determine how sensitive horses are to handling.=20 Regards Eva S=F8ndergaard Ph.d. in horse behaviour -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sendt: 13. november 2003 02:46 Til: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Emne: RE: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Gry L=F8berg wrote: "Horses should have enough social experience with people early in life = to prevent them from being frightened of people and their environment" Perhaps in some perfect situation this might be possible - but, even if = it were, would it necessarily be good welfare? Fear is an essential = survival trait - and in the case of the horse all environmental novelty is potentially threatening, and therefore a source of possible fear. = Without any novelty the environment is bland, predictable and likely to produce = some degree of sensory deprivation, and, it might reasonably be suggested, = poor welfare.=20 Equally would there not be a requirement for the people that provide the social experience to all behave in a way that is predictable and = constant (as far as the perception of horses is concerned) across a wide number = of people? Given that there is no real consensus in training or handling methods as yet how would it be possible to prevent such, generally, = negative elements as 'learned helplessness' or 'learned laziness' being built-in = to the paradigm of management? The mere fact of exposure to interaction = with people does not, by or in itself, guarantee a lack of fear - in fact = were the current trend in 'round-pen' use, or, equally, other methods = modelled on the concept of 'dominance' to continue (I have no knowledge of whether = this is done in Norway) then contact with people could easily produce fear = rather than prevent it. I think there may also be some, albeit anecdotal, evidence to support = the contention that nervousness, in some individuals, decreases with = maturity. If this were to be true then it might well be better to leave well alone until the horse has a more mature character before expecting social = contact. Are there no feral horses in Norway? For, if there are, how would such = an aim impact them?=20 If welfare legislation is to be drawn up would it not better be based on maximising provision of the 5 freedoms? Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz =20 -----Original Message----- From: Gry L=F8berg [mailto:post@gry.no]=20 Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 9:14 p.m. To: apbc4_um@ftech.net; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi all We are in Norway making lots of new laws and regulations regarding = animals. We have a new dog-law, a new animal welfare law, new regulations = regarding keeping dogs outside in pens, and about housing and management of = horses. I am together with some partners commenting on the regulations regarding horses, and need some help with information and references. One of the suggestion is saying: "Horses should have enough social experience with people early in life to prevent them from being = frightened of people and their environment" We would like to be more specific here, I know they have an imprinting period, but do horses have a sensitive period for = socialisation and habituation? I have not found anything about it in the literature so far. If you do have any information about this I would be pleased if you could let med know. Gry L=F8berg From: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz" 5-DEC-2003 08:32:48.56 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi Eva - no problem. But it also occurs that the wording "sensitive period for habituation and socialisation" is correct - whereas use of imprinting with reference to the interaction between people and foals is certainly not - although I am aware that a process, in my opinion misnamed, called "imprint training" has been popularised. There most certainly is a critical period in which foal and dam become 'imprinted' on each other - and if this is missed due to separation for some reason the mare will not accept the foal. There may also be ideal periods in which socialisation might ideally take place - whether with people, dogs, pigs or the opposite gender - but it is not imprinting. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz From: IN%"pabliss@jazzfree.com" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pablo_Hern=E1ndez?=" 6-DEC-2003 18:11:05.54 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: Selegiline in dogs Hello to everybody, I'm looking for references, clinical trials or any scientific = publication about the use of selegiline (L-deprenyl) in dogs to treat = emotional disorders, mainly separation anxiety. I've been searching = trough different data bases, etc., and I didn't find anything. Can you help me? Any information would very appreciated. Best regards, Pablo Hern=E1ndez (DVM)=20 From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 6-DEC-2003 20:17:32.16 To: IN%"pabliss@jazzfree.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Selegiline in dogs Selegiline could conceivably be used to treat depression, hyperactivity and perhaps OCD type disorders, but in humans at least it is not generally used for those purposes. It is only approved for treatment of parkinsonism in humans. This is a link for canine and Selegiline on MEDLINE. A quick scan of the articles by me seems to indicate that it has not been used for the treatment of emotional disorders but you can peruse this search. What disorders are you interesting in treating? There are probably safer and more effective treatments available. http://intapp.medscape.com/px/medlineapp/search?getcount=200&advanced=0&releva nce=100&wordvars=on&getchunk=20&relevance_sort=on&concept_mapping=on&ray=on&se archstring=canine+selegiline&searchlogic=fuzzy&authors=&journals=&earliestseg= UM98993X%2C1998&latestseg=UMA3C01X%2C2003&submit.x=7&submit.y=10 From: IN%"claude.beata@wanadoo.fr" "Claude Beata" 7-DEC-2003 11:42:31.70 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"pabliss@jazzfree.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Selegiline in dogs Selegiline has been licensed in Europe (under he name of Selgian) with emotional disorders as major target. I think you can easily get from Ceva Sante animale, the firm that has launched the product, a huge amount of documentation on selegiline and emotional disorders. I had the chance to be one of the investigator and since ten years we use that product in emotiona= l disorders mainly when dopaminergic signs (such as digestive signs, anticipation=8A) are prevalent. Hyperactivity when agitation is not too high is a very good target but also mood disorders and permanent anxiety. Acral lick dermatitis, stereotypies (such as tail chasing) are also classic targets. I hope that can help Claude Beata DVM Behaviorist Certified by French National Veterinary Schools University Diploma of Ethology Member of Avsab Board member of ESVCE and GECAF President of ZooPsy Www.zoopsy.com--=20 Le 7/12/03 3:17, =AB=A0Michalchik@aol.com=A0=BB a =E9crit=A0: > Selegiline could conceivably be used to treat depression, hyperactivity a= nd > perhaps OCD type disorders, but in humans at least it is not generally us= ed > for those purposes. It is only approved for treatment of parkinsonism in > humans. > =20 > This is a link for canine and Selegiline on MEDLINE. A quick scan of the > articles by me seems to indicate that it has not been used for the treatm= ent > of emotional disorders but you can peruse this search. What disorders are= you > interesting in treating? There are probably safer and more effective > treatments available. > =20 > http://intapp.medscape.com/px/medlineapp/search?getcount=3D200&advanced=3D0&r= eleva > nce=3D100&wordvars=3Don&getchunk=3D20&relevance_sort=3Don&concept_mapping=3Don&ray=3D= on&se > archstring=3Dcanine+selegiline&searchlogic=3Dfuzzy&authors=3D&journals=3D&earlies= tseg=3D > UM98993X%2C1998&latestseg=3DUMA3C01X%2C2003&submit.x=3D7&submit.y=3D10 > mp;relevance=3D100&wordvars=3Don&getchunk=3D20&relevance_sort=3Don&am= p;con > cept_mapping=3Don&ray=3Don&searchstring=3Dcanine+selegiline&searchl= ogic=3D > fuzzy&authors=3D&> From: IN%"Gerflannigan@aol.com" 7-DEC-2003 14:07:07.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Selegiline in dogs Dr. Beata: Are there any published scientific studies (in English?) of the use of fo the use of selegeline for behavioral disorders in dogs or cats(other than cognitive disfunction)? Thanks, Gerry ______________________________________________________________________ Gerrard Flannigan DVM MSc. DACVB Carolina Veterinary Spcialists Greensboro/Charlotte, NC From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 9-DEC-2003 17:22:57.72 To: IN%"pabliss@jazzfree.com" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Pablo_Hern=E1ndez'?=", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Selegiline in dogs Off the top of my head: The proceedings for the 4th International Veterinary Behaviour Conference held in August 2003 at Caloundra Australia made reference to the usefulness of selegiline over SSRIs and TCAs when treating dogs showing acute vegetative signs of anxiety eg freeze response, salivation, urination, defecation. I have been using it to treat a bearded collie with a bona fide squeeky toy phobia because the dog is young, physically healthy, and shows acute vegetative signs of anxiety when she hears squeaky toys being squeeked. She was going to dog agility, but would go into the tunnel and freeze when someone used their squeaky motivational toy. The owners were unable to get her out for some time. The case is too new to discuss outcomes yet.=20 Regards, Jackie Perkins Veterinary Behaviour Consulting Australia -----Original Message----- From: Pablo Hern=E1ndez [mailto:pabliss@jazzfree.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 10:10 AM To: Ethology Posting Subject: Selegiline in dogs Hello to everybody, =A0 I'm looking for references, clinical trials or any scientific publication about the use of selegiline (L-deprenyl) in dogs to treat emotional disorders, mainly separation anxiety. I've been searching trough different data bases, etc., and I didn't find anything. =A0 Can you help me? Any information would very appreciated. =A0 Best regards, =A0 Pablo Hern=E1ndez (DVM)=A0 From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 9-DEC-2003 17:37:13.75 To: IN%"Eva.Sondergaard@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Eva_S=F8ndergaard'?=", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi Eva, and please call me Jackie. Sorry for not including your name in the bibliography on that paper. I shall have to be more careful with my referencing! It was a nice paper. Thank you for contextualizing it. So the debate continues about equine developmental periods.=20 Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Eva S=F8ndergaard [mailto:Eva.Sondergaard@agrsci.dk]=20 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 11:29 PM To: wheep@igrin.co.nz; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca; Gry L=F8berg; Geiger Subject: SV: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Dear Gry (and Andy and "Geiger") I am in the Danish working group on legislations for keeping horses and know the Norwegian suggestion as well. I think the research on imprinting in foals show contradictory results and it is in my opinion definitely NOT clear that horses do have an "imprinting period". I don't know of much work directly on a sensitive period for socialisation and habitiation except from a french study by Lansade et al. Lansade, L., Bertrand, M., Boivin, X., Bouissou, M-F. 2003. Effect of handling during the neonatal period or at weaning on manageability and reactivity of foals. Paper presented at the 54th Annual Meeting of the European Association for Animal Production 31 August - 3 September 2003, Rome, Italy. 8p. An abstract was also published in the ISAE proceedings from 2001. This paper actually concludes that handling at weaning is more effective than handling at birth. Despite the inconclusive scientific results, I think, it is important to handle foals and if you do it early (but not necessarily right after birth) the job will be more easy. I don't think you on a scientific basis can be more precise than mentioned in the regulations but you could give some good advice on how to handle foals and what they need to learn to fulfill the intentions of the regulations, and to avoid the possible comlications mentioned by Andy Beck. I have just written an article about it (in Danish) for a horse magasine and can sent you a copy if you like. I don't agree with Andy that it may be good for the horse to keep some fearfulness (except for the feral horses), especially not in Scandinavian conditions where you often have to handle and deal with horses where space is limited. Handling a fearful colt in a small (indoor) area may be very dangerous and in my opinion this is not good welfare.=20 The work mentioned by Jackie Perkins (Geiger)is not based on experimental work (I am co-author on the paper by Jan Ladewig) but on evidence from other mammals that such periods exist. I don't think it proves that horses have a socialisation period for humans as the one in dogs, and I think the work metioned above from Lansade et al., may indicate that it is not time (age) but other factors that determine how sensitive horses are to handling.=20 Regards Eva S=F8ndergaard Ph.d. in horse behaviour -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sendt: 13. november 2003 02:46 Til: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Emne: RE: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Gry L=F8berg wrote: "Horses should have enough social experience with people early in life to prevent them from being frightened of people and their environment" Perhaps in some perfect situation this might be possible - but, even if it were, would it necessarily be good welfare? Fear is an essential survival trait - and in the case of the horse all environmental novelty is potentially threatening, and therefore a source of possible fear. Without any novelty the environment is bland, predictable and likely to produce some degree of sensory deprivation, and, it might reasonably be suggested, poor welfare.=20 Equally would there not be a requirement for the people that provide the social experience to all behave in a way that is predictable and constant (as far as the perception of horses is concerned) across a wide number of people? Given that there is no real consensus in training or handling methods as yet how would it be possible to prevent such, generally, negative elements as 'learned helplessness' or 'learned laziness' being built-in to the paradigm of management? The mere fact of exposure to interaction with people does not, by or in itself, guarantee a lack of fear - in fact were the current trend in 'round-pen' use, or, equally, other methods modelled on the concept of 'dominance' to continue (I have no knowledge of whether this is done in Norway) then contact with people could easily produce fear rather than prevent it. I think there may also be some, albeit anecdotal, evidence to support the contention that nervousness, in some individuals, decreases with maturity. If this were to be true then it might well be better to leave well alone until the horse has a more mature character before expecting social contact. Are there no feral horses in Norway? For, if there are, how would such an aim impact them?=20 If welfare legislation is to be drawn up would it not better be based on maximising provision of the 5 freedoms? Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz =20 -----Original Message----- From: Gry L=F8berg [mailto:post@gry.no]=20 Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 9:14 p.m. To: apbc4_um@ftech.net; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi all We are in Norway making lots of new laws and regulations regarding animals. We have a new dog-law, a new animal welfare law, new regulations regarding keeping dogs outside in pens, and about housing and management of horses. I am together with some partners commenting on the regulations regarding horses, and need some help with information and references. One of the suggestion is saying: "Horses should have enough social experience with people early in life to prevent them from being frightened of people and their environment" We would like to be more specific here, I know they have an imprinting period, but do horses have a sensitive period for socialisation and habituation? I have not found anything about it in the literature so far. If you do have any information about this I would be pleased if you could let med know. Gry L=F8berg From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 9-DEC-2003 17:45:12.47 To: IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com" "'Jo Angleberger'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: excerpted information re dugongs Go ahead. I would love to be instrumental in modifying this practice but, like you, do not know how. Perhaps some media exposure will create the motivation for research. I spoke again with this couple who work in the community. The numbers of dugongs killed is not insignificant. It could easily be a dozen per month. They say that in 1999 there were 16 dugongs laying dead on the beach (caught by natives for the researcher) for an American doing research into deep sea diving. The researcher only wanted their inner ears and could not obtain specimens from anywhere else because Australia is the only place where dugongs can be killed legally!!=20 Please keep in touch. Best regards, Jackie Perkins Veterinary behaviour Consulting=20 Australia -----Original Message----- From: Jo Angleberger [mailto:warblerneck@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 5:49 AM To: gooddog@dodo.com.au Subject: RE: excerpted information re dugongs Thanks for the enlightening personal insight, Jackie. I listen, at an addiction rate, to radio news, especially NPR. They make a=20 regular appeal to listeners for news ideas, and one of my newsworthy items=20 even made it on the air. I want very much to write them to investigate the=20 endangerment of the dugong, and would include your note below, and recent=20 ones if I still have them. Would this be okay with you? Jo You wrote: My information comes from a couple who live and work in aboriginal communities. They are eye witnesses to everyday practices. They claim the dugongs are dragged inshore and if still alive they are clubbed to death. They may not be killed in great numbers, but it is a symbolic problem, and surely even small numbers of animals make a difference when they are endangered. It is indeed a complex ethical problem. Most are. That is why detailed research, including from humanities qualified experts, is sorely needed whenever dealing with entrenched traditions. Vets have technical expertise but not humanitie. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Jo Angleberger [mailto:warblerneck@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 7:40 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: excerpted information re dugongs =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DAfter getting information on apparently reliable = websites, (BELOW) the question again for me is do we want to sacrifice yet another culture thousands of years old or risk the life of the dugong species. Happy mediums are difficult, but the only worthwhile goal IMO. I couldn't find out how Austrailian aborigines are *supposed* to hunt dugongs now, but no doubt the old methods are still used by those who don't care. Are the dugongs clubbed to death? Read nothing about that, only about harpooning with subsequent drowning. More info welcomed to my email address, thanks. What are people like us supposed to do about cultural practices in Australia? If I were an anthropologist, I might try to get assigned there a few years. But I'm an ordinary aging American with no direct sirenian experience. BUT, I AM a member of an applied ethology group---wouldn't it be great if we could act as a group and apply our collective minds to addressing this and other problems with letters, phone calls, interviews, lobbying? Jo >From website http://www.hollyandjeremy.com/wildlife/esReports/report19.html-- governments will outlaw hunting of endangered species, but in this case, the hunting of dugongs are a part of Aboriginal traditions and rituals. The Australian government, not wanting to interfere with the Aboriginal culture, has not banned the hunting of this species, but has placed rules and regulations about how they can hunt them and where. Traditionally, dugongs were harpooned from canoes with a barbed harpoon attached to a rope and the dugong was held by its tail in the water until it drowned. Today, the Aborigines use more humane methods of capturing these mammals and are only allowed to hunt them in areas where the government has concluded that the population is in no danger of becoming endangered or extinct. Most of the following is from a governmental website, for much more info relevant to recent email, see http://www.gbrmpa.gov.au/corp_site/key_issues/conservation/threatened_sp ecies/threats.html Maximum longevity (most die at a younger age) ~70 years Pre-reproductive period (females) 6-17 years Pre-reproductive period (males) 4-16 years Gestation period 13-15 months Litter size 1 Lactation length 14-18 months Calving interval 3-7 years Max possible rate of increase (e.g. low natural mortality & no human-induced mortality) ~ 5% per year Estimated natural mortality rate ~ 5% per year Aerial surveys commissioned by the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority covered 39 000 square kilometres of the inshore waters of the southern World Heritage Area in 1986=9687, 1992, 1994 and 1999. Between 1986 and 1994, they detected a significant population decline from an estimated 3480 (+/- 460) to an estimated 1680 (+/- 240) within eight years. Whilst the results of the 1999 surveys showed that numbers in the southern Area were back at 1986-87 levels (3993 =B1 644), an analysis of dugongs caught unintentionally in shark nets at bathing beaches has confirmed that the dugong population in urban areas of the Queensland coast with nets is 3% of that in 1962. This was when the Queensland Shark Control Program commenced. Experts consider that the decline in dugong numbers is due to unsustainable mortality from human-related causes such as habitat loss or degradation, commercial mesh nets (fish nets), shark nets set for bather protection, indigenous hunting, boat strikes, defence activities and illegal take. The largest and most important remaining concentrations of dugongs in the southern part of the World Heritage Area are in the Shoalwater Bay, Cardwell/Hinchinbrook, and Cleveland to Upstart Bay areas. The dugong population in the southern Great Barrier Reef can only cope with a human-caused mortality of less than 1=962% each year. This means that = if there are 200 dugongs in a bay, the population can only cope with the loss of two to four dugongs per year from all human causes (i.e. fishing, boat strikes and indigenous hunting). The activities associated with the hunting of dugong and turtle and preparing the meat has great significance and is an expression of the continuance of long cultural traditions. Great importance is placed on the social sharing of the meat with members of the family. Turtle shell is important to many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, as historically it was often fashioned into combs and fishhooks. In remote coastal areas, dugongs and green turtles have a higher social value because they provide food to communities where a nourishing diet is essential but often expensive to attain. In addition, these marine food resources strengthen Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture and demonstrate connection with traditional and sea country. The activity of hunting dugongs and turtles is restricted to Aboriginal peoples and Torres Strait Islanders. Zoning plans for the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park require that a permit be obtained for traditional hunting. Consistent with the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority's policy not to issue permits for hunting dugongs in the southern Great Barrier Reef, some Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities have made voluntary formal and informal decisions not to hunt, as a contribution to addressing the decline in dugong numbers in the southern Great Barrier Reef. >From website http://www.hollyandjeremy.com/wildlife/esReports/report19.html-- governments will outlaw hunting of endangered species, but in this case, the hunting of dugongs are a part of Aboriginal traditions and rituals. The Australian government, not wanting to interfere with the Aboriginal culture, has not banned the hunting of this species, but has placed rules and regulations about how they can hunt them and where. Traditionally, dugongs were harpooned from canoes with a barbed harpoon attached to a rope and the dugong was held by its tail in the water until it drowned. Today, the Aborigines use more humane methods of capturing these mammals and are only allowed to hunt them in areas where the government has concluded that the population is in no danger of becoming endangered or extinct. The activity of hunting dugongs and turtles is restricted to Aboriginal peoples and Torres Strait Islanders. Zoning plans for the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park require that a permit be obtained for traditional hunting. Consistent with the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority's policy not to issue permits for hunting dugongs in the southern Great Barrier Reef, some Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities have made voluntary formal and informal decisions not to hunt, as a contribution to addressing the decline in dugong numbers in the southern Great Barrier Reef. _________________________________________________________________ Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=3Dfeatures/es _________________________________________________________________ Need a shot of Hank Williams or Patsy Cline? The classic country stars are=20 always singing on MSN Radio Plus. Try one month free! =20 http://join.msn.com/?page=3Doffers/premiumradio From: IN%"pabliss@jazzfree.com" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pablo_Hern=E1ndez?=" 9-DEC-2003 17:59:09.93 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: Fw: Selegiline in dogs Thank you all for your answers, Dear Dr. Beata, Thanks for your information, I asked Ceva (Spain) and I'm waiting for an answer from them. Dear Dr. Perkins, Do you know how I could get a copy of those proccedings? Such a reference sounds very interesting. I used selegiline in three cases where urination, defecation and destructive chewing at home (specially when dog was alone) was the main complaint. It was very useful and those three dogs improved significantly (much more than with clomipramine). I have to give a talk, here in Spain, and I need references about this topic to support use of selegiline. Thanks again, Pablo Hernández (DVM) P.S. The link about canine and selegiline (see below) doesn't work (at least for me) http://intapp.medscape.com/px/medlineapp/search?getcount=200&advanced=0&rele vance=100&wordvars=on&getchunk=20&relevance_sort=on&concept_mapping=on&ray=o n&searchstring=canine+selegiline&searchlogic=fuzzy&authors=&journals=&earlie stseg=UM98993X%2C1998&latestseg=UMA3C01X%2C2003&submit.x=7&submit.y=10 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geiger" > To: "'Pablo Hernández'" ; > > Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:22 AM > Subject: RE: Selegiline in dogs > > > Off the top of my head: The proceedings for the 4th International > Veterinary Behaviour Conference held in August 2003 at Caloundra > Australia made reference to the usefulness of selegiline over SSRIs and > TCAs when treating dogs showing acute vegetative signs of anxiety eg > freeze response, salivation, urination, defecation. I have been using it > to treat a bearded collie with a bona fide squeeky toy phobia because > the dog is young, physically healthy, and shows acute vegetative signs > of anxiety when she hears squeaky toys being squeeked. She was going to > dog agility, but would go into the tunnel and freeze when someone used > their squeaky motivational toy. The owners were unable to get her out > for some time. The case is too new to discuss outcomes yet. > Regards, Jackie Perkins > Veterinary Behaviour Consulting > Australia > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pablo Hernández [mailto:pabliss@jazzfree.com] > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 10:10 AM > To: Ethology Posting > Subject: Selegiline in dogs > > Hello to everybody, > > I'm looking for references, clinical trials or any scientific > publication about the use of selegiline (L-deprenyl) in dogs to treat > emotional disorders, mainly separation anxiety. I've been searching > trough different data bases, etc., and I didn't find anything. > > Can you help me? Any information would very appreciated. > > Best regards, > > Pablo Hernández (DVM) > > > > From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 9-DEC-2003 18:34:11.91 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: some more incorrect fun Subject: FW: answering machine messages!!!!! > >Subject: FW: our new phone answering technique > >Importance: High > > > > > >Answering machine At A Mental Health Clinic: > > > >"Hello, and welcome to the mental health hotline." > > > >If you are obsessive-compulsive, press 1 repeatedly. > > > >If you are codependent, please ask someone to press 2 for you. If you > >have multiple personalities, press 3, 4, 5, and 6. > > > >If you are paranoid, we know who you are and what you want. Stay on > >the line so we can trace your call. > > > >If you are delusional, press 7 and your call will be transferred to > >the mother ship. > > > >If you are schizophrenic, listen carefully and a small voice will > >tell you > >which number to press. > > > >If you are a manic-depressive, it doesn't matter which number you > >press, no > >one will answer. > > > >If you are dyslexic, press 9696969696969696. > > > >If you have a nervous disorder, please fidget with the pound key > >until a representative comes on the line. > > > >If you have amnesia, press 8 and state your name, address, telephone > >number, date of birth, social security number, and your mother's > >maiden name. > > > >If you have post-traumatic stress disorder, > >s-l-o-w-l-yc-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y press 0 0 0. > > > >If you have bi-polar disorder, please leave a message after the beep > >or before the beep or after the beep. Please wait for the beep. > > > >If you have short-term memory loss, press 9. If you have short-term memory > >loss, press 9. > > > >If you have short-term memory loss, press 9. > > > >If you have short-term memory loss, press 9. > > > >If you have low self-esteem, please hang up. All operators are too > >busy to > >talk to you." > >If you are blonde don't press any buttons, you'll just screw it up. From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 9-DEC-2003 19:12:39.53 To: IN%"pabliss@jazzfree.com" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Pablo_Hern=E1ndez'?=", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Selegiline in dogs Dear Pablo, it is on p 241 of the proceedings in an article : Canine Sound Phobias-A Review of Treatment Approaches 2003 S.E. Heath & J.E. Bowen.=20 The relevant paragraph reads: "Choices (of drug) will depend on the primary presenting signs in the individual cases but in general terms those dogs showing inhibited behavioural responses, such as shaking, dribbling and social withdrawal, will benefit from therapy with a mono-amine oxidase B inhibitor such as selegiline, while those individuals which exhibit panic and bolt for home or dive under the bed are more likely to require medication with one of the SSRIs such as sertraline. " The editors are: Kersti Seksel, Gaille Perry, Danny Mills, Diane Frank, Ellen Lindel, Paul Mcgreevy, Patrick Pageat. Many of them are on this discussion list. =20 Hope this helps, Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Pablo Hern=E1ndez [mailto:pabliss@jazzfree.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 9:58 AM To: Ethology Posting Subject: Fw: Selegiline in dogs Thank you all for your answers, Dear Dr. Beata, Thanks for your information, I asked Ceva (Spain) and I'm waiting for an answer from them. Dear Dr. Perkins, Do you know how I could get a copy of those proccedings? Such a reference sounds very interesting. I used selegiline in three cases where urination, defecation and destructive chewing at home (specially when dog was alone) was the main complaint. It was very useful and those three dogs improved significantly (much more than with clomipramine). I have to give a talk, here in Spain, and I need references about this topic to support use of selegiline. Thanks again, Pablo Hern=E1ndez (DVM) P.S. The link about canine and selegiline (see below) doesn't work (at least for me) http://intapp.medscape.com/px/medlineapp/search?getcount=3D200&advanced=3D= 0& rele vance=3D100&wordvars=3Don&getchunk=3D20&relevance_sort=3Don&concept_mappi= ng=3Don&r ay=3Do n&searchstring=3Dcanine+selegiline&searchlogic=3Dfuzzy&authors=3D&journal= s=3D&ea rlie = stseg=3DUM98993X%2C1998&latestseg=3DUMA3C01X%2C2003&submit.x=3D7&submit.y= =3D10 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geiger" > To: "'Pablo Hern=E1ndez'" ; > > Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:22 AM > Subject: RE: Selegiline in dogs > > > Off the top of my head: The proceedings for the 4th International > Veterinary Behaviour Conference held in August 2003 at Caloundra > Australia made reference to the usefulness of selegiline over SSRIs and > TCAs when treating dogs showing acute vegetative signs of anxiety eg > freeze response, salivation, urination, defecation. I have been using it > to treat a bearded collie with a bona fide squeeky toy phobia because > the dog is young, physically healthy, and shows acute vegetative signs > of anxiety when she hears squeaky toys being squeeked. She was going to > dog agility, but would go into the tunnel and freeze when someone used > their squeaky motivational toy. The owners were unable to get her out > for some time. The case is too new to discuss outcomes yet. > Regards, Jackie Perkins > Veterinary Behaviour Consulting > Australia > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pablo Hern=E1ndez [mailto:pabliss@jazzfree.com] > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 10:10 AM > To: Ethology Posting > Subject: Selegiline in dogs > > Hello to everybody, > > I'm looking for references, clinical trials or any scientific > publication about the use of selegiline (L-deprenyl) in dogs to treat > emotional disorders, mainly separation anxiety. I've been searching > trough different data bases, etc., and I didn't find anything. > > Can you help me? Any information would very appreciated. > > Best regards, > > Pablo Hern=E1ndez (DVM) From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 9-DEC-2003 21:09:14.65 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au", IN%"pabliss@jazzfree.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Selegiline in dogs In a message dated 12/9/2003 5:15:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, gooddog@dodo.com.au writes: The relevant paragraph reads: "Choices (of drug) will depend on the primary presenting signs in the individual cases but in general terms those dogs showing inhibited behavioural responses, such as shaking, dribbling and social withdrawal, will benefit from therapy with a mono-amine oxidase B inhibitor such as selegiline, Boy, it sounds like I might benefit from selegiline ;-) From: IN%"Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac.be" "Marc Vandenheede" 11-DEC-2003 04:06:16.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Applied-ethology and the ISAE Dear all, As member of the Welfare Council in Belgium, I am searching for any= information about immunocastration in male pigs, a method which seems to be= more and more considered as an credible alternative to surgical castration.= I am particularly interested in some practical feedback from the australian= experience. Thank you in advance! Sincerely yours,
ffff,0000,0000Marc Vandenheede Universit=E9 de Li=E8ge Facult=E9 de M=E9decine V=E9t=E9rinaire D=E9partement des Productions Animales (Ethologie appliqu=E9e aux animaux domestiques) Bd de Colonster, B=E2t. B43 4000 Li=E8ge Belgium t=E9l.: 32/(0)4/366.41.48 GSM: 32/(0)474/74.84.08 fax.: 32/(0)4/366.41.22 0000,0000,ffffemail: Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac.be
From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 11-DEC-2003 09:08:22.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Pain in Calves Just got the following question - and would appreciate any info... "Can you point me to some good recent resources regarding the measurement of pain in calves? I am looking to determine if measuring the frequency of recumbency, eating, tail shaking and ear flicking, plus rumen sounds, in a calf would be a sufficient measure for lack of pain. Calves will be observed for one minute (2,4,6,12,24 and 48 hours post procedure) to record the frequency of these behaviors." W.R. Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" "h.m." 11-DEC-2003 12:47:20.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Pain in Calves I can't point the person to good recent resources but wanted to caution that calves are prey animals just like rabbits, and rabbits are known to hide pain symptoms so well that many Veterinarians still don't prescribe pain medicines for rabbits, when they are in pain and could use the analgesic. In rabbits you look for teeth grinding (also used as a "purr" when happy, this teeth grinding is a different type of grinding), inactivity, sometimes (not always) appetitite. My one rabbit had a hind paw smashed when only months old. He has chronic pain now. You can't tell he is in pain unless you notice that he tries (when resting) to take weight off that paw; and he bites you if you try to touch it. If you give him pain medicine he gets much "happier". But it is very difficult to use animal behaviors visible to humans to detect pain in rabbits because they have evolved to HIDE these symptoms. Heather -----Original Message----- From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:08 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Pain in Calves Just got the following question - and would appreciate any info... "Can you point me to some good recent resources regarding the measurement of pain in calves? I am looking to determine if measuring the frequency of recumbency, eating, tail shaking and ear flicking, plus rumen sounds, in a calf would be a sufficient measure for lack of pain. Calves will be observed for one minute (2,4,6,12,24 and 48 hours post procedure) to record the frequency of these behaviors." W.R. Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com" 11-DEC-2003 12:54:52.15 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: Salivary flow rate during Stress Salivary cortisol concentration has often been used as a parameter of stress and welfare - usually with the tacit assumption that salivation itself is unaffected by stress. However, we know that salivary cortisol fluctuates quite widely and many of us believe that, although enticing simple to measure, it is probably a poor indicator of sub-acute or chronic stress, or of "welfare". However, we know that "dry mouth" is a feature often associated in humans with acute adrenocortical activation. Today I was listening to scientists on the radio who were comparing introvert and extrovert personality types in humans and the common differences in their preferred lifestyle. They stated that under basal levels of stimulation, introverts have a higher natural level of CNS arousal - a higher level of activity in the reticular formation in the brain, than extroverts have. Their next statement answered a long-standing puzzle that I have had - why do I produce more saliva when under sub-acute stress - i.e. anxious situations that last for days? The expert psychologists said that introverts produce more saliva than extroverts under conditions of fairly low stimulation because the reticular activating system also affects the flow rate of saliva. I would be interested to hear people's views on this phenomenon, and on the general topic of "hyper-arousal". It seems to me that "hyper-arousal" has become a huge problem in our fast-changing, highly technological and increasingly rule-bound, society. I first became aware of this growing problem of "overstimulation/hyper-arousal" when my children were young and were irritable and tense after playing computer games. Now I notice it on myself if I spend too long (which I usually do!) working with computers. We are also experiencing an epidemic of "Hyperactivity Attention-Deficit Disorder" (HAAD or HADD) in kids these days which seems to involve the "hyper-arousal" phenomenon. Michael Meredith www.sunflower-health.com From: IN%"richardbeaudet@hotmail.com" "Richard Beaudet" 11-DEC-2003 13:18:50.88 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: White Tail deer I'm interested to find some good references on the white tail deers. If you can give me some suggestions on articles or research, it will be gratly appreciated. Thank you in advance, Richard Beaudet _________________________________________________________________ MSN Search, le moteur de recherche qui pense comme vous ! http://fr.ca.search.msn.com/ From: IN%"slvnhld@ix.netcom.com" "OBi Fox" 11-DEC-2003 14:32:20.59 To: IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: RE: Salivary flow rate during Stress the following may be of interest: (PRWEB) December 9 2003--Animal findings now show that Ritalin permanently adversely alters the brain function of rats as they grow older, leading to increased depressive behavior and alterations of behavior. The study appears in the Dec. 15, 2003 issue of Biological Psychiatry. OBi Fox ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Ethology Posting" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: Salivary flow rate during Stress > Salivary cortisol concentration has often been used as a parameter of stress > and welfare - usually with the tacit assumption that salivation itself is > unaffected by stress. > > However, we know that salivary cortisol fluctuates quite widely and many of > us believe that, although enticing simple to measure, it is probably a poor > indicator of sub-acute or chronic stress, or of "welfare". > > However, we know that "dry mouth" is a feature often associated in humans > with acute adrenocortical activation. > > Today I was listening to scientists on the radio who were comparing > introvert and extrovert personality types in humans and the common > differences in their preferred lifestyle. > > They stated that under basal levels of stimulation, introverts have a higher > natural level of CNS arousal - a higher level of activity in the reticular > formation in the brain, than extroverts have. > > Their next statement answered a long-standing puzzle that I have had - why > do I produce more saliva when under sub-acute stress - i.e. anxious > situations that last for days? The expert psychologists said that introverts > produce more saliva than extroverts under conditions of fairly low > stimulation because the reticular activating system also affects the flow > rate of saliva. > > I would be interested to hear people's views on this phenomenon, and on the > general topic of "hyper-arousal". It seems to me that "hyper-arousal" has > become a huge problem in our fast-changing, highly technological and > increasingly rule-bound, society. > > I first became aware of this growing problem of > "overstimulation/hyper-arousal" when my children were young and were > irritable and tense after playing computer games. Now I notice it on myself > if I spend too long (which I usually do!) working with computers. We are > also experiencing an epidemic of "Hyperactivity Attention-Deficit Disorder" > (HAAD or HADD) in kids these days which seems to involve the "hyper-arousal" > phenomenon. > > Michael Meredith > www.sunflower-health.com > > From: IN%"Kenneth.Rutherford@bbsrc.ac.uk" "kenneth rutherford (RI)" 12-DEC-2003 03:04:41.48 To: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "'Ray Stricklin '", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca '" CC: Subj: RE: Pain in Calves Dear all, Joyce Kent and Vince Molony at the Vet School here in Edinburgh have recently put together an excellent website on animal pain assessment which may be of interest. www.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalpain/ It contains references and some information regarding their work on castration pain in calves. Personally speaking I would be worried about a pain assessment study involving observations of behaviour that only lasted one minute. Even if a quick pain assessment protocol is the ultimate aim it is still necessary to start with more rigorous observations (for example, see the work of Roughan and Flecknell on postoperative pain assessment in rats: Roughan, J.V., Flecknell, P.A. 2003. Evaluation of a short duration behaviour-based post-operative pain scoring system in rats. EUROPEAN JOURNAL OF PAIN, 7 (5): 397-406). Kenny -----Original Message----- From: Ray Stricklin To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: 11/12/03 15:08 Subject: Pain in Calves Just got the following question - and would appreciate any info... "Can you point me to some good recent resources regarding the measurement of pain in calves? I am looking to determine if measuring the frequency of recumbency, eating, tail shaking and ear flicking, plus rumen sounds, in a calf would be a sufficient measure for lack of pain. Calves will be observed for one minute (2,4,6,12,24 and 48 hours post procedure) to record the frequency of these behaviors." W.R. Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"A.S.Chamove@massey.ac.nz" "Arnold Chamove" 12-DEC-2003 04:19:50.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" Subj: Pain The animal pain website has just been launched and can be found at www.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalpain/ . >"Can you point me to some good recent resources regarding the measurement of >pain in calves? I am looking to determine if measuring the frequency of >recumbency, eating, tail shaking and ear flicking, plus rumen sounds, in a >calf would be a sufficient measure for lack of pain. Calves will be >observed for one minute (2,4,6,12,24 and 48 hours post procedure) to record >the frequency of these behaviors." From: IN%"csmith35@nycap.rr.com" "Cynthia Smith" 12-DEC-2003 06:37:57.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Pain in Calves Ray, This was just posted on the Comparative Medicine Listserv. It doesn't answer this persons question perfectly but it sure is a nice chapter on pain in livestock in general and it does discuss castration and dehorning. Cynthia Smith, USDA/ARS/ NAL/ Animal Welfare Information Center Lisle W. George Pain Control in Food Animals (Last Updated: 9-Oct-2003 ) Department of Medicine and Epidemiology, University of California, Davis, CA, USA. In: Recent Advances in Anesthetic Management of Large Domestic Animals, Steffey E.P. (Ed.) International Veterinary Information Service, Ithaca NY (www.ivis.org), 2003; A0615.1103 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Stricklin" To: Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:08 AM Subject: Pain in Calves > Just got the following question - and would appreciate any info... > > > "Can you point me to some good recent resources regarding the measurement of > pain in calves? I am looking to determine if measuring the frequency of > recumbency, eating, tail shaking and ear flicking, plus rumen sounds, in a > calf would be a sufficient measure for lack of pain. Calves will be > observed for one minute (2,4,6,12,24 and 48 hours post procedure) to record > the frequency of these behaviors." > > > > W.R. Stricklin > University of Maryland From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 12-DEC-2003 07:56:16.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" CC: Subj: RE: Pain in Calves Dear All, Below is reference to the facial expression of animals experiencing pain - and a call for someone to attempt to quantify this phenomenon. I agree. Lorenz, Marian Stamp Dawkins, and a number of other persons have discussed the importance of observing facial changes in order to better understand the subjective state the animal is experiencing. Such research would obviously be considerably more professionally challenging - and risky - than would be using the traditional physiological approach to "measuring pain." However, I would argue that the importance of quantifiable information about facial expression (plus the other body cues) is so great that attempting to attain this measure of pain is worth the risk and investment. There is a very interesting proposed methodology below that would attempt to quantify the latency in the time taken for the animal in pain to focus on a novel stimuli compared to a control. And maybe some of the newer technologies might prove of benefit in this research. For example the AI techniques used in human facial recognition might be adapted to understanding the changes in subjective state of an animal (even though the work I have seen on this technique to date indicates that it is still some time off from being applicable). W.R. Stricklin University of Maryland -----Original Message----- From: Janice Willard [mailto:jwillard@turbonet.com] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 12:53 PM To: Ray Stricklin Subject: Re: Pain in Calves Hi Ray, I'm going to answer this off list because there is nothing scientific in what I have to say. I haven't worked with calves in a long time but do raise goats and sheep and I think their responses to pain are fairly similar. So if I go out into the barn and look over my kids and lambs and a red flag comes up in my mind that there is a problem, it is probably because of some postural things more than anything. An animal in pain will be lying down or standing rather hunched but holding its body very stiffly. A group of animals can be standing or a group lying and you can pick the one with a problem out immediately because of the stiff rigidity and posture. The chin will be pulled back and the ears sometimes turned back or drooping slightly. It is as though, because it will hurt to move, the animal tenses it's body against any inadvertent movement. It will also be more reluctant to move if carefully approached. There is an expression of pain on the face, I really do wish someone would quantify it because it seems very obvious to me when I look at the animal. The face is held tense, like the rest of the body. The eyes are open, but the awareness is not about its surroundings but rather inwardly focused. You can see this if you quietly approach the animal--they are slower to be aware of your presence. Their eyes are open but they are not registering what is in front of them. I believe, although I can't prove it, that their attention is on the pain and what hurts--inwardly rather than outwardly focused. When they do become aware of you, you can see a dramatic shift in their awareness. They orient to you, ears come forward, eyes widen and the rigid immobility ceases as they prepare for escape movements. So if I were quantifying pain, I would identify how much time an undisturbed animal stayed in the "pain posture"- then I would measure response to novel stimuli (i.e. play a novel sound at low decibel while the animal is awake but in pain posture and gradually increase the volume of the intermittent signal until the animal orients and pays attention to it). I think it would also be interesting to measure how much time an animal who is in pain sleeps versus a control animal--my feeling is that the animal in pain will be awake but not alert for longer periods of time, while an animal not in pain will spend more time either alert or fully asleep (I have no data on this, this is just my impression from observation--would make a nice study though and easy to do with video monitoring). So if you measure for response to novel stimuli, a control animal (not in pain) will respond more quickly unless it is asleep, in which case, if it is completely asleep, it will not be very responsive at all. But if awake, the animal not in pain will notice novel stimuli quickly, while an animal in pain will stay for longer periods of time in state of being awake but unaware. An animal in pain will grind its teeth--that is only seen while the animal is in the pain posture and undisturbed. Once you have made an animal aware of your presence, I don't believe measurements of pain will be very accurate (except perhaps locomotor disturbances like limping). There is a high evolutionary benefit to being able to mask pain during arousal. I would think that reliable signs of pain can only be measured in an animal that is not in any way threatened. Anyway, I hope these observations are of benefit. Ray, if you think this is worth sharing with the list, you are welcome to post my comments--otherwise use them as you see fit. Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Stricklin" To: Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 7:08 AM Subject: Pain in Calves > Just got the following question - and would appreciate any info... > > > "Can you point me to some good recent resources regarding the measurement of > pain in calves? I am looking to determine if measuring the frequency of > recumbency, eating, tail shaking and ear flicking, plus rumen sounds, in a > calf would be a sufficient measure for lack of pain. Calves will be > observed for one minute (2,4,6,12,24 and 48 hours post procedure) to record > the frequency of these behaviors." > > > > W.R. Stricklin > University of Maryland > From: IN%"V.Sandilands@au.sac.ac.uk" 15-DEC-2003 03:11:16.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Primate Society meeting Please send all queries/replies to Vicky Melfi, address given in attachment. Thanks Dr. Victoria Sandilands Avian Science Research Centre/Animal Nutrition & Health Animal Health Group Scottish Agricultural College Ayr, KA6 5HW, UK tel +44 (0)1292 525421 fax +44 (0)1292 525098 http://www.sac.ac.uk/animal/External/ABDWeb/Avian/Default.htm The information in this e.mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this e.mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. When addressed to our clients, any opinions or advice contained in this e.mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in the governing client engagement letter. From: IN%"Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac.be" "Marc Vandenheede" 15-DEC-2003 11:29:21.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: immunocastration Dear all, As member of the Welfare Council in Belgium, I am searching for any= information about immunocastration in male pigs, a method which seems to be= more and more considered as an credible alternative to surgical castration.= I am particularly interested in some practical feedback from the australian= experience. Thank you in advance! Sincerely yours,
ffff,0000,0000Marc Vandenheede University of Li=E8ge Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Production (Applied Ethology) Bd de Colonster, B=E2t. B43 4000 Li=E8ge Belgium t=E9l.: 32/(0)4/366.41.48 GSM: 32/(0)474/74.84.08 fax.: 32/(0)4/366.41.22 0000,0000,ffffemail: Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac.be