Subject: indiana coyote rescue center news From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:47:22 -0800 (PST) To: Elise Able , Donna Ackerman , Ronald Ackerman , Jessica Addams , Darryl Addington , Dixie/Dennise Amazon , Walter Amos , Angel , Angie , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca, applied-ethology@usask.ca, Nancy Arterburn , Vanessa Austin , Steve Austin <6mil@sbcglobal.net>, Peggy Bachman , Leif Baierl , Brian Bailey , Heather Baker , banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com, Kaye Bauer , beatnikbanditle@aol.com, Nadia Beji , Marc Bekoff , Paul Bell , Paul Bell , Paul Bickford , big@cheqnet.net, Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological , Adam Blaszkiewicz , Erin Bonaventure , Jeremy Bonfiglio , Kimberly Booth , Jill Booth , Kimberly Booth , Virginia Bowen , Charity Boyd , Bill Bradley , Tom Brady , Jody Brink , nora brockhaus , Nicholas Brown , Shelly Brown , Nancy Brown , Boris Burgel , Season Butler , Matt C coyote news CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news From: Peggy Singletary Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:05:20 -0500 To: Cecilia Lambert , Elise Able , Donna Ackerman , Ronald Ackerman , Jessica Addams , Darryl Addington , Dixie/Dennise Amazon , Walter Amos , Angel , Angie , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca, applied-ethology@usask.ca, Nancy Arterburn , Vanessa Austin , Steve Austin <6mil@sbcglobal.net>, Peggy Bachman , Leif Baierl , Brian Bailey , Heather Baker , banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com, Kaye Bauer , beatnikbanditle@aol.com, Nadia Beji , Marc Bekoff , Paul Bell , Paul Bell , Paul Bickford , big@cheqnet.net, Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological , Adam Blaszkiewicz , Erin Bonaventure , Jeremy Bonfiglio , Kimberly Booth , Jill Booth , Kimberly Booth , Virginia Bowen , Charity Boyd , Bill Bradley , Tom Brady , Jody Brink , nora brockhaus , Nicholas Brown , Shelly Brown , Nancy Brown , Boris Burgel , Season Butler , Matt C Fair and balanced. Do you have photos of the reverse, showing coyotes killing dogs and attacking children? . http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/aurora.colorado.coyotes.2.562658.html http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/living/coyotes.htm Peggy Singletary ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: Elise Able ; Donna Ackerman ; Ronald Ackerman ; Jessica Addams ; Darryl Addington ; Dixie/Dennise Amazon ; Walter Amos ; Angel ; Angie ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; applied-ethology@usask.ca ; Nancy Arterburn ; Vanessa Austin ; Steve Austin ; Peggy Bachman ; Leif Baierl ; Brian Bailey ; Heather Baker ; banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com ; Kaye Bauer ; beatnikbanditle@aol.com ; Nadia Beji ; Marc Bekoff ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bickford ; big@cheqnet.net ; Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological ; Adam Blaszkiewicz ; Erin Bonaventure ; Jeremy Bonfiglio ; Kimberly Booth ; Jill Booth ; Kimberly Booth ; Virginia Bowen ; Charity Boyd ; Bill Bradley ; Tom Brady ; Jody Brink ; nora brockhaus ; Nicholas Brown ; Shelly Brown ; Nancy Brown ; Boris Burgel ; Season Butler ; Matt C Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:47 PM Subject: indiana coyote rescue center news coyote news CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news From: Peggy Singletary Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:05:20 -0500 To: Cecilia Lambert , Elise Able , Donna Ackerman , Ronald Ackerman , Jessica Addams , Darryl Addington , Dixie/Dennise Amazon , Walter Amos , Angel , Angie , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca, applied-ethology@usask.ca, Nancy Arterburn , Vanessa Austin , Steve Austin <6mil@sbcglobal.net>, Peggy Bachman , Leif Baierl , Brian Bailey , Heather Baker , banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com, Kaye Bauer , beatnikbanditle@aol.com, Nadia Beji , Marc Bekoff , Paul Bell , Paul Bell , Paul Bickford , big@cheqnet.net, Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological , Adam Blaszkiewicz , Erin Bonaventure , Jeremy Bonfiglio , Kimberly Booth , Jill Booth , Kimberly Booth , Virginia Bowen , Charity Boyd , Bill Bradley , Tom Brady , Jody Brink , nora brockhaus , Nicholas Brown , Shelly Brown , Nancy Brown , Boris Burgel , Season Butler , Matt C Fair and balanced. Do you have photos of the reverse, showing coyotes killing dogs and attacking children? . http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/aurora.colorado.coyotes.2.562658.html http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/living/coyotes.htm Peggy Singletary ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: Elise Able ; Donna Ackerman ; Ronald Ackerman ; Jessica Addams ; Darryl Addington ; Dixie/Dennise Amazon ; Walter Amos ; Angel ; Angie ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; applied-ethology@usask.ca ; Nancy Arterburn ; Vanessa Austin ; Steve Austin ; Peggy Bachman ; Leif Baierl ; Brian Bailey ; Heather Baker ; banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com ; Kaye Bauer ; beatnikbanditle@aol.com ; Nadia Beji ; Marc Bekoff ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bickford ; big@cheqnet.net ; Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological ; Adam Blaszkiewicz ; Erin Bonaventure ; Jeremy Bonfiglio ; Kimberly Booth ; Jill Booth ; Kimberly Booth ; Virginia Bowen ; Charity Boyd ; Bill Bradley ; Tom Brady ; Jody Brink ; nora brockhaus ; Nicholas Brown ; Shelly Brown ; Nancy Brown ; Boris Burgel ; Season Butler ; Matt C Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:47 PM Subject: indiana coyote rescue center news coyote news CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news From: Rexxie1@aol.com Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:59:43 -0500 (EST) To: ralei@sc.rr.com, ceannicrc@yahoo.com, foxladye@yahoo.com, meikela@earthlink.net, meikela@att.net, ginger@soappuppy.com, addingtonam@accs.net, dixie.amazon@gmail.com, amos@headgear.org, dufner@moonice.net, metono2002@yahoo.com, Maxtonstarr878@cs.com, kwla6mil@sbcglobal.net, 6mil@sbcglobal.net, bachmanpeggy@sbcglobal.net, lbbaierl@yahoo.com, winton11@bellsouth.net, horizon@ytci.com, banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com, Kaye9249@aol.com, BeatnikBanditLE@aol.com, ancientmysteries@gmail.com, marc.bekoff@colorado.edu, me@paulbell.org, paulbell1971@yahoo.co.uk, bickford@jimmy.harvard.edu, big@cheqnet.net, wbrown@blueridgebiological.com, adam_blaszkiewicz@yahoo.com, lakecountyanimalcontrol@hotmail.com, jbonfiglio@sbtinfo.com, kimberly.booth@cardinal.com, doveland@webtv.net, kimberly.booth@cardinalhealth.com, vbowen@bowenconsulting.net, ssss@southsidesodashopdiner.com, lakestclair48080@yahoo.com, duncan@wolfhusky.org, jodybrink@comcast.net, rescueintherough@hotmail.com, nicholasb@tesco.net, Lagunabeach2424@aol.com, wolfmommy@msn.com, buergel@hirnriss.in-berlin.de, seasoncm@hotmail.com, k8treed@yahoo.com, applied-ethology@usask.ca Peggy, The more authoritative site you provided (news stories contain opinions which may or may not be objective) seems to provide the balance without condoning the cruelty depicted in CeAnn's email (see yellow highlighted material below). Not surprisingly, humans appear to create many of the conflicts and, by becoming aware, so also could prevent them. Marlene Halverson * Coyotes occasionally kill domestic dogs (and foxes) that they consider territorial intruders. Coyotes are also very protective of their young and will attack dogs that get too close to their den and pups. Note: The list of killers of domestic cats and dogs includes other dogs and cats, vehicles, bears, cougars, bobcats, foxes, disease, and furious neighbors! * There were no documented coyote attacks on humans in Washington state until 2006. In April 2006, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife officers euthanized two coyotes in Bellevue (King County)after two young children were bitten while their parents were nearby. Coyotes had also scratched and snapped at two women and charged a man in the same area. These coyotes’ unusually aggressive behavior likely resulted from being fed by people. * From 1988 to 1997 in southern California, 53 coyote attacks on humans-- resulting in 21 injuries-- were documented by a University of California Wildlife Extension Specialist. A study of those incidents indicated that human behavior contributes to the problem. * Humans increase the liklihood of conflicts with coyotes by deliberately or inadvertently feeding the animals, whether by handouts or by providing access to food sources such as garbage, pet food or livestock carcasses. When people provide food, coyotes quickly lose their natural fear of humans and become increasingly aggressive. They also become dependent on the easy food source people provide . Once a coyote stops hunting on its own and loses its fear of people, it becomes dangerous and may attack without warning. * Prevention is the best tool for minimizing conflicts with coyotes and other wildlife. The site also lists a number of precautions and management procedures designed to enable the two species to live together in more mutually beneficial ways. http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/living/coyotes.htm In a message dated 12/5/2007 1:24:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, ralei@sc.rr.com writes: Fair and balanced. Do you have photos of the reverse, showing coyotes killing dogs and attacking children? . http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/aurora.colorado.coyotes.2.562658.html http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/living/coyotes.htm Peggy Singletary ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: Elise Able ; Donna Ackerman ; Ronald Ackerman ; Jessica Addams ; Darryl Addington ; Dixie/Dennise Amazon ; Walter Amos ; Angel ; Angie ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; applied-ethology@usask.ca ; Nancy Arterburn ; Vanessa Austin ; Steve Austin ; Peggy Bachman ; Leif Baierl ; Brian Bailey ; Heather Baker ; banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com ; Kaye Bauer ; beatnikbanditle@aol.com ; Nadia Beji ; Marc Bekoff ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bickford ; big@cheqnet.net ; Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological ; Adam Blaszkiewicz ; Erin Bonaventure ; Jeremy Bonfiglio ; Kimberly Booth ; Jill Booth ; Kimberly Booth ; Virginia Bowen ; Charity Boyd ; Bill Bradley ; Tom Brady ; Jody Brink ; nora brockhaus ; Nicholas Brown ; Shelly Brown ; Nancy Brown ; Boris Burgel ; Season Butler ; Matt C Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:47 PM Subject: indiana coyote rescue center news coyote news CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news From: Janice Willard Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:42:02 -0800 To: Peggy Singletary , Cecilia Lambert , Elise Able , Donna Ackerman , Ronald Ackerman , Jessica Addams , Darryl Addington , Dixie/Dennise Amazon , Walter Amos , Angel , Angie , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca, applied-ethology@usask.ca, Nancy Arterburn , Vanessa Austin , Steve Austin <6mil@sbcglobal.net>, Peggy Bachman , Leif Baierl , Brian Bailey , Heather Baker , banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com, Kaye Bauer , beatnikbanditle@aol.com, Nadia Beji , Marc Bekoff , Paul Bell , Paul Bell , Paul Bickford , big@cheqnet.net, Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological , Adam Blaszkiewicz , Erin Bonaventure , Jeremy Bonfiglio , Kimberly Booth , Jill Booth , Kimberly Booth , Virginia Bowen , Charity Boyd , Bill Bradley , Tom Brady , Jody Brink , nora brockhaus , Nicholas Brown , Shelly Brown , Nancy Brown , Boris Burgel , Season Butler , Matt C Hi Peggy, I live in Idaho and raise sheep, goats, chickens and geese. Over the years, I have had coyotes kill my sheep, goats, geese and my cats. I currently use llamas and electric fences to protect the goats and sheep (although not fool-proof because I have one of my favorite doe goats now recovering in my barn from a coyote attack that left her with bites and a broken leg). One might consider me to have a pretty good case for wanting coyotes controlled. That said, I find *no* reason, *none* whatsoever, for coyotes to be used as live bait to be torn apart by packs of dogs for entertainment or "sport.". This is neither humane for the wild animals or the dogs. In my opinion, just because an animal is considered vermin (i.e. an animal species with a high survival potential that interferes with the best interests of people) in no way justifies killing them in an unnecessarily frightening and painful way. Even if you take the ethical arguments aside, using wild animals for live bait is not an effective control method for problem populations and it has the very real risk of transmitting diseases between wild life populations and domestic animals. You simply can't use the need to control specific problem animals or problem populations as a justification for this practice. (If lethal control is needed, it can be done quickly and efficiently by a skilled marksman). In the examples you cited (coyotes killing dogs in a urban area and coyotes attacking children), you will notice that the human population generated the problem by leaving food out or even, in the case of the people that were bitten, directly feeding the coyotes! (It never ceases to amaze me what appalling stupid things people will do). Killing other animals is what predators do for a living. However, in the more than two decades that I have been raising sheep and goats, I have never seen a coyote kill in a manner that was more savage or cruel than what was needed to get the job done. Sadly, I can not say the same thing for my fellow humans. Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS ----- Original Message ----- From: Peggy Singletary To: Cecilia Lambert ; Elise Able ; Donna Ackerman ; Ronald Ackerman ; Jessica Addams ; Darryl Addington ; Dixie/Dennise Amazon ; Walter Amos ; Angel ; Angie ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; applied-ethology@usask.ca ; Nancy Arterburn ; Vanessa Austin ; Steve Austin ; Peggy Bachman ; Leif Baierl ; Brian Bailey ; Heather Baker ; banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com ; Kaye Bauer ; beatnikbanditle@aol.com ; Nadia Beji ; Marc Bekoff ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bickford ; big@cheqnet.net ; Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological ; Adam Blaszkiewicz ; Erin Bonaventure ; Jeremy Bonfiglio ; Kimberly Booth ; Jill Booth ; Kimberly Booth ; Virginia Bowen ; Charity Boyd ; Bill Bradley ; Tom Brady ; Jody Brink ; nora brockhaus ; Nicholas Brown ; Shelly Brown ; Nancy Brown ; Boris Burgel ; Season Butler ; Matt C Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:05 AM Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news Fair and balanced. Do you have photos of the reverse, showing coyotes killing dogs and attacking children? . http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/aurora.colorado.coyotes.2.562658.html http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/living/coyotes.htm Peggy Singletary ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: Elise Able ; Donna Ackerman ; Ronald Ackerman ; Jessica Addams ; Darryl Addington ; Dixie/Dennise Amazon ; Walter Amos ; Angel ; Angie ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; applied-ethology@usask.ca ; Nancy Arterburn ; Vanessa Austin ; Steve Austin ; Peggy Bachman ; Leif Baierl ; Brian Bailey ; Heather Baker ; banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com ; Kaye Bauer ; beatnikbanditle@aol.com ; Nadia Beji ; Marc Bekoff ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bickford ; big@cheqnet.net ; Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological ; Adam Blaszkiewicz ; Erin Bonaventure ; Jeremy Bonfiglio ; Kimberly Booth ; Jill Booth ; Kimberly Booth ; Virginia Bowen ; Charity Boyd ; Bill Bradley ; Tom Brady ; Jody Brink ; nora brockhaus ; Nicholas Brown ; Shelly Brown ; Nancy Brown ; Boris Burgel ; Season Butler ; Matt C Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:47 PM Subject: indiana coyote rescue center news coyote news CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.14/1172 - Release Date: 12/5/2007 8:41 AM Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news From: Janice Willard Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:42:02 -0800 To: Peggy Singletary , Cecilia Lambert , Elise Able , Donna Ackerman , Ronald Ackerman , Jessica Addams , Darryl Addington , Dixie/Dennise Amazon , Walter Amos , Angel , Angie , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca, applied-ethology@usask.ca, Nancy Arterburn , Vanessa Austin , Steve Austin <6mil@sbcglobal.net>, Peggy Bachman , Leif Baierl , Brian Bailey , Heather Baker , banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com, Kaye Bauer , beatnikbanditle@aol.com, Nadia Beji , Marc Bekoff , Paul Bell , Paul Bell , Paul Bickford , big@cheqnet.net, Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological , Adam Blaszkiewicz , Erin Bonaventure , Jeremy Bonfiglio , Kimberly Booth , Jill Booth , Kimberly Booth , Virginia Bowen , Charity Boyd , Bill Bradley , Tom Brady , Jody Brink , nora brockhaus , Nicholas Brown , Shelly Brown , Nancy Brown , Boris Burgel , Season Butler , Matt C Hi Peggy, I live in Idaho and raise sheep, goats, chickens and geese. Over the years, I have had coyotes kill my sheep, goats, geese and my cats. I currently use llamas and electric fences to protect the goats and sheep (although not fool-proof because I have one of my favorite doe goats now recovering in my barn from a coyote attack that left her with bites and a broken leg). One might consider me to have a pretty good case for wanting coyotes controlled. That said, I find *no* reason, *none* whatsoever, for coyotes to be used as live bait to be torn apart by packs of dogs for entertainment or "sport.". This is neither humane for the wild animals or the dogs. In my opinion, just because an animal is considered vermin (i.e. an animal species with a high survival potential that interferes with the best interests of people) in no way justifies killing them in an unnecessarily frightening and painful way. Even if you take the ethical arguments aside, using wild animals for live bait is not an effective control method for problem populations and it has the very real risk of transmitting diseases between wild life populations and domestic animals. You simply can't use the need to control specific problem animals or problem populations as a justification for this practice. (If lethal control is needed, it can be done quickly and efficiently by a skilled marksman). In the examples you cited (coyotes killing dogs in a urban area and coyotes attacking children), you will notice that the human population generated the problem by leaving food out or even, in the case of the people that were bitten, directly feeding the coyotes! (It never ceases to amaze me what appalling stupid things people will do). Killing other animals is what predators do for a living. However, in the more than two decades that I have been raising sheep and goats, I have never seen a coyote kill in a manner that was more savage or cruel than what was needed to get the job done. Sadly, I can not say the same thing for my fellow humans. Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS ----- Original Message ----- From: Peggy Singletary To: Cecilia Lambert ; Elise Able ; Donna Ackerman ; Ronald Ackerman ; Jessica Addams ; Darryl Addington ; Dixie/Dennise Amazon ; Walter Amos ; Angel ; Angie ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; applied-ethology@usask.ca ; Nancy Arterburn ; Vanessa Austin ; Steve Austin ; Peggy Bachman ; Leif Baierl ; Brian Bailey ; Heather Baker ; banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com ; Kaye Bauer ; beatnikbanditle@aol.com ; Nadia Beji ; Marc Bekoff ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bickford ; big@cheqnet.net ; Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological ; Adam Blaszkiewicz ; Erin Bonaventure ; Jeremy Bonfiglio ; Kimberly Booth ; Jill Booth ; Kimberly Booth ; Virginia Bowen ; Charity Boyd ; Bill Bradley ; Tom Brady ; Jody Brink ; nora brockhaus ; Nicholas Brown ; Shelly Brown ; Nancy Brown ; Boris Burgel ; Season Butler ; Matt C Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:05 AM Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news Fair and balanced. Do you have photos of the reverse, showing coyotes killing dogs and attacking children? . http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/aurora.colorado.coyotes.2.562658.html http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/living/coyotes.htm Peggy Singletary ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: Elise Able ; Donna Ackerman ; Ronald Ackerman ; Jessica Addams ; Darryl Addington ; Dixie/Dennise Amazon ; Walter Amos ; Angel ; Angie ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; applied-ethology@usask.ca ; Nancy Arterburn ; Vanessa Austin ; Steve Austin ; Peggy Bachman ; Leif Baierl ; Brian Bailey ; Heather Baker ; banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com ; Kaye Bauer ; beatnikbanditle@aol.com ; Nadia Beji ; Marc Bekoff ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bickford ; big@cheqnet.net ; Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological ; Adam Blaszkiewicz ; Erin Bonaventure ; Jeremy Bonfiglio ; Kimberly Booth ; Jill Booth ; Kimberly Booth ; Virginia Bowen ; Charity Boyd ; Bill Bradley ; Tom Brady ; Jody Brink ; nora brockhaus ; Nicholas Brown ; Shelly Brown ; Nancy Brown ; Boris Burgel ; Season Butler ; Matt C Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:47 PM Subject: indiana coyote rescue center news coyote news CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.14/1172 - Release Date: 12/5/2007 8:41 AM Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news From: Emily Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:58:56 -0600 To: Janice Willard CC: Peggy Singletary , Cecilia Lambert , Elise Able , Donna Ackerman , Ronald Ackerman , Jessica Addams , Darryl Addington , Dixie/Dennise Amazon , Walter Amos , Angel , Angie , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca, applied-ethology@usask.ca, Nancy Arterburn , Vanessa Austin , Steve Austin <6mil@sbcglobal.net>, Peggy Bachman , Leif Baierl , Brian Bailey , Heather Baker , banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com, Kaye Bauer , beatnikbanditle@aol.com, Nadia Beji , Marc Bekoff , Paul Bell , Paul Bell , Paul Bickford , big@cheqnet.net, Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological , Adam Blaszkiewicz , Erin Bonaventure , Jeremy Bonfiglio , Kimberly Booth , Jill Booth , Kimberly Booth , Virginia Bowen , Charity Boyd , Bill Bradley , Tom Brady , Jody Brink , nora brockhaus , Nicholas Brown , Shelly Brown , Nancy Brown , Boris Burgel , Season Butler , Matt C Please don't include me in any further replies: rattitude@gmail.com On 05/12/2007, Janice Willard wrote: > > > > Hi Peggy, > > > > I live in Idaho and raise sheep, goats, chickens and geese. Over the years, > > I have had coyotes kill my sheep, goats, geese and my cats. I currently use > > llamas and electric fences to protect the goats and sheep (although not > > fool-proof because I have one of my favorite doe goats now recovering in my > > barn from a coyote attack that left her with bites and a broken leg). One > > might consider me to have a pretty good case for wanting coyotes controlled. > > That said, I find *no* reason, *none* whatsoever, for coyotes to be used as > > live bait to be torn apart by packs of dogs for entertainment or "sport.". > > This is neither humane for the wild animals or the dogs. In my opinion, > > just because an animal is considered vermin (i.e. an animal species with a > > high survival potential that interferes with the best interests of people) > > in no way justifies killing them in an unnecessarily frightening and painful > > way. > > > > Even if you take the ethical arguments aside, using wild animals for live > > bait is not an effective control method for problem populations and it has > > the very real risk of transmitting diseases between wild life populations > > and domestic animals. You simply can't use the need to control specific > > problem animals or problem populations as a justification for this practice. > > (If lethal control is needed, it can be done quickly and efficiently by a > > skilled marksman). > > > > In the examples you cited (coyotes killing dogs in a urban area and coyotes > > attacking children), you will notice that the human population generated the > > problem by leaving food out or even, in the case of the people that were > > bitten, directly feeding the coyotes! (It never ceases to amaze me what > > appalling stupid things people will do). > > > > Killing other animals is what predators do for a living. However, in the > > more than two decades that I have been raising sheep and goats, I have never > > seen a coyote kill in a manner that was more savage or cruel than what was > > needed to get the job done. Sadly, I can not say the same thing for my > > fellow humans. > > > > Janice > > > > Janice Willard, DVM, MS > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Peggy Singletary > > To: Cecilia Lambert ; Elise Able ; Donna Ackerman ; Ronald Ackerman ; > > Jessica Addams ; Darryl Addington ; Dixie/Dennise Amazon ; Walter Amos ; > > Angel ; Angie ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; applied-ethology@usask.ca ; > > Nancy Arterburn ; Vanessa Austin ; Steve Austin ; Peggy Bachman ; Leif > > Baierl ; Brian Bailey ; Heather Baker ; > > banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com ; Kaye Bauer ; > > beatnikbanditle@aol.com ; Nadia Beji ; Marc Bekoff ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bell ; > > Paul Bickford ; big@cheqnet.net ; Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological ; Adam > > Blaszkiewicz ; Erin Bonaventure ; Jeremy Bonfiglio ; Kimberly Booth ; Jill > > Booth ; Kimberly Booth ; Virginia Bowen ; Charity Boyd ; Bill Bradley ; Tom > > Brady ; Jody Brink ; nora brockhaus ; Nicholas Brown ; Shelly Brown ; Nancy > > Brown ; Boris Burgel ; Season Butler ; Matt C > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:05 AM > > Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news > > > > > > Fair and balanced. Do you have photos of the reverse, showing coyotes > > killing dogs and attacking children? > > . > > http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/aurora.colorado.coyotes.2.562658.html > > > > http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/living/coyotes.htm > > > > Peggy Singletary > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Cecilia Lambert > > To: Elise Able ; Donna Ackerman ; Ronald Ackerman ; Jessica Addams ; Darryl > > Addington ; Dixie/Dennise Amazon ; Walter Amos ; Angel ; Angie ; > > applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; applied-ethology@usask.ca ; Nancy Arterburn > > ; Vanessa Austin ; Steve Austin ; Peggy Bachman ; Leif Baierl ; Brian Bailey > > ; Heather Baker ; banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com ; Kaye > > Bauer ; beatnikbanditle@aol.com ; Nadia Beji ; Marc Bekoff ; Paul Bell ; > > Paul Bell ; Paul Bickford ; big@cheqnet.net ; Will Brown / Blue Ridge > > Biological ; Adam Blaszkiewicz ; Erin Bonaventure ; Jeremy Bonfiglio ; > > Kimberly Booth ; Jill Booth ; Kimberly Booth ; Virginia Bowen ; Charity Boyd > > ; Bill Bradley ; Tom Brady ; Jody Brink ; nora brockhaus ; Nicholas Brown ; > > Shelly Brown ; Nancy Brown ; Boris Burgel ; Season Butler ; Matt C > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:47 PM > > Subject: indiana coyote rescue center news > > > > coyote news > > > > CeAnn Lambert > > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > > www.coyoterescue.org > > Please visit our gift shop @ > > www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.14/1172 - Release Date: 12/5/2007 > > 8:41 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news From: Emily Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:58:56 -0600 To: Janice Willard CC: Peggy Singletary , Cecilia Lambert , Elise Able , Donna Ackerman , Ronald Ackerman , Jessica Addams , Darryl Addington , Dixie/Dennise Amazon , Walter Amos , Angel , Angie , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca, applied-ethology@usask.ca, Nancy Arterburn , Vanessa Austin , Steve Austin <6mil@sbcglobal.net>, Peggy Bachman , Leif Baierl , Brian Bailey , Heather Baker , banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com, Kaye Bauer , beatnikbanditle@aol.com, Nadia Beji , Marc Bekoff , Paul Bell , Paul Bell , Paul Bickford , big@cheqnet.net, Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological , Adam Blaszkiewicz , Erin Bonaventure , Jeremy Bonfiglio , Kimberly Booth , Jill Booth , Kimberly Booth , Virginia Bowen , Charity Boyd , Bill Bradley , Tom Brady , Jody Brink , nora brockhaus , Nicholas Brown , Shelly Brown , Nancy Brown , Boris Burgel , Season Butler , Matt C Please don't include me in any further replies: rattitude@gmail.com On 05/12/2007, Janice Willard wrote: > > > > Hi Peggy, > > > > I live in Idaho and raise sheep, goats, chickens and geese. Over the years, > > I have had coyotes kill my sheep, goats, geese and my cats. I currently use > > llamas and electric fences to protect the goats and sheep (although not > > fool-proof because I have one of my favorite doe goats now recovering in my > > barn from a coyote attack that left her with bites and a broken leg). One > > might consider me to have a pretty good case for wanting coyotes controlled. > > That said, I find *no* reason, *none* whatsoever, for coyotes to be used as > > live bait to be torn apart by packs of dogs for entertainment or "sport.". > > This is neither humane for the wild animals or the dogs. In my opinion, > > just because an animal is considered vermin (i.e. an animal species with a > > high survival potential that interferes with the best interests of people) > > in no way justifies killing them in an unnecessarily frightening and painful > > way. > > > > Even if you take the ethical arguments aside, using wild animals for live > > bait is not an effective control method for problem populations and it has > > the very real risk of transmitting diseases between wild life populations > > and domestic animals. You simply can't use the need to control specific > > problem animals or problem populations as a justification for this practice. > > (If lethal control is needed, it can be done quickly and efficiently by a > > skilled marksman). > > > > In the examples you cited (coyotes killing dogs in a urban area and coyotes > > attacking children), you will notice that the human population generated the > > problem by leaving food out or even, in the case of the people that were > > bitten, directly feeding the coyotes! (It never ceases to amaze me what > > appalling stupid things people will do). > > > > Killing other animals is what predators do for a living. However, in the > > more than two decades that I have been raising sheep and goats, I have never > > seen a coyote kill in a manner that was more savage or cruel than what was > > needed to get the job done. Sadly, I can not say the same thing for my > > fellow humans. > > > > Janice > > > > Janice Willard, DVM, MS > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Peggy Singletary > > To: Cecilia Lambert ; Elise Able ; Donna Ackerman ; Ronald Ackerman ; > > Jessica Addams ; Darryl Addington ; Dixie/Dennise Amazon ; Walter Amos ; > > Angel ; Angie ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; applied-ethology@usask.ca ; > > Nancy Arterburn ; Vanessa Austin ; Steve Austin ; Peggy Bachman ; Leif > > Baierl ; Brian Bailey ; Heather Baker ; > > banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com ; Kaye Bauer ; > > beatnikbanditle@aol.com ; Nadia Beji ; Marc Bekoff ; Paul Bell ; Paul Bell ; > > Paul Bickford ; big@cheqnet.net ; Will Brown / Blue Ridge Biological ; Adam > > Blaszkiewicz ; Erin Bonaventure ; Jeremy Bonfiglio ; Kimberly Booth ; Jill > > Booth ; Kimberly Booth ; Virginia Bowen ; Charity Boyd ; Bill Bradley ; Tom > > Brady ; Jody Brink ; nora brockhaus ; Nicholas Brown ; Shelly Brown ; Nancy > > Brown ; Boris Burgel ; Season Butler ; Matt C > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:05 AM > > Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news > > > > > > Fair and balanced. Do you have photos of the reverse, showing coyotes > > killing dogs and attacking children? > > . > > http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/aurora.colorado.coyotes.2.562658.html > > > > http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/living/coyotes.htm > > > > Peggy Singletary > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Cecilia Lambert > > To: Elise Able ; Donna Ackerman ; Ronald Ackerman ; Jessica Addams ; Darryl > > Addington ; Dixie/Dennise Amazon ; Walter Amos ; Angel ; Angie ; > > applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; applied-ethology@usask.ca ; Nancy Arterburn > > ; Vanessa Austin ; Steve Austin ; Peggy Bachman ; Leif Baierl ; Brian Bailey > > ; Heather Baker ; banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com ; Kaye > > Bauer ; beatnikbanditle@aol.com ; Nadia Beji ; Marc Bekoff ; Paul Bell ; > > Paul Bell ; Paul Bickford ; big@cheqnet.net ; Will Brown / Blue Ridge > > Biological ; Adam Blaszkiewicz ; Erin Bonaventure ; Jeremy Bonfiglio ; > > Kimberly Booth ; Jill Booth ; Kimberly Booth ; Virginia Bowen ; Charity Boyd > > ; Bill Bradley ; Tom Brady ; Jody Brink ; nora brockhaus ; Nicholas Brown ; > > Shelly Brown ; Nancy Brown ; Boris Burgel ; Season Butler ; Matt C > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:47 PM > > Subject: indiana coyote rescue center news > > > > coyote news > > > > CeAnn Lambert > > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > > www.coyoterescue.org > > Please visit our gift shop @ > > www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.14/1172 - Release Date: 12/5/2007 > > 8:41 AM > > > > > > Subject: storm phobia in dogs From: Joanne Righetti Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:14:46 +1100 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca, 'applied-ethology' Hi, Does anyone have any ideas of the incidence of storm phobias in dogs? It seems to be a relatively common phobia (especially this week in Sydney!) and I just wondered if it’s incidence has been reported anywhere. Thanks, Joanne Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviour Consultant (02) 9416 9800 0414 561 699 www.petproblemsolved.com.au Subject: New to group; need help! From: fraidycat@bellsouth.net Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:02:41 +0000 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I'm new to this group, and I thank you for allowing me to join. I am not a student, but have been attempting to learn as much about feline behavior as possible due to some issues w/ one of my cats. I have four, and up until I added the fourth cat there were not visible problems. The third cat (first two are brother/sister) has a history or urinary calculi; however, it usually resolved/passed on its own....up until the fourth cat was added. It then became a problem and he blocked and was catheterized numerous times. After five catheterizations in just under one year, we elected to have the perineal urethrostomy performed. This was not a great choice, but he's a great cat and I can't put him down. Now he's having other issues, partly from the fourth cat, who he doesn't like but tolerates, and mostly from some neighborhood cats who are allowed to roam free. He has now begun spraying/urinating by the refrigerator, which is in the sam e area as their water & food bowls -- a 9' x 9' nook off of our kitchen. He mostly stands to spray, but I believe he may also be partly squatting at times b/c he tries to cover it up when he's done. I've added a litter box there, but he still marks/urinates there...just moved to in front of the fridge. I've cleaned w/ enzyme cleaner, followed by vinegar & water, tried to shoo the outside cats away, called animal control, sprayed peppermint spray, Boundary spray, etc., etc., etc. I have tried EVERY thing I know of. The vet suggestted amitriptyline, but we've used it before and I don't like what it does to him. Fluoxetine is what he suggests now. I'm holding off b/c I currently have him on l-theanine (Suntheanine brand). It takes 4-6 weeks for effects and it's only been one, so..... He's a great cat, and I can't see putting him to sleep b/c neighbors won't keep their cats inside. It's also not fair to keep him from enjoying the screened porches we have, but I have to in order to keep him from seeing them. Rehoming him is not an option as it will only add to his stress and not solve the problem. I realize these are many solutions people choose, but they are not viable options for us. Might someone be able to help me and my boy? I'm at my wit's end, but I cannot give up. He's worth every effort I can make. I am sincerely grateful for any advice, direction, etc. Thank you in advance, Judi & Fibber, the nearly-famous, beloved Scottish Fold Subject: Re: storm phobia in dogs From: Kari Wallentine Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:46:31 -0600 To: Joanne Righetti CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca, 'applied-ethology' Hi Joanne, I'm doing my Masters research on canine thunderstorm phobia and thought I'd share what I've found. One source (Shull-Selcer and Stagg, 1991) found that 87% of 30 phobic dogs at two university veterinary teaching hospitals were afraid of thunder. However, although many dogs fearful of storms are presented to veterinarians and behaviorists, there is not much data on the incidence of it, making it difficult to estimate the prevalence within the general canine population (Voith and Borchelt, 1985; Overall et al, 2001; Overall, 2002; Shull-Selcer and Stagg, 1991). References: Overall K.L. 2002. Noise Phobias in dogs. Pages 164-172 in BSAVA Manual of Canine and Feline Behavioural Medicine. Horwitz D. F., D. S. Mills, and S. Heath, eds. British Small Animal Veterinary Association, Gloucester, England. Overall K.L., A.E. Dunham, and D. Frank. 2001. Frequency of nonspecific clinical signs in dogs with separation anxiety, thunderstorm phobia, and noise phobia, alone or in combination. J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc. 219(4):467-473. Shull-Selcer E.A., and W. Stagg. 1991. Advances in the Understanding and Treatment of Noise Phobias. Vet. Clin. North Am. (Sm. Anim. Pract.) 21(2):353-367. Voith V.L., and P.L. Borchelt. 1985. Fears and Phobias in Companion Animals. Compend. Cont. Ed. 7(3):209-218. Although not much, I hope this information is helpful to you. Best regards, Kari Wallentine, DVM Manhattan, KS Joanne Righetti wrote: > > Hi, > > Does anyone have any ideas of the incidence of storm phobias in dogs? It seems to be a relatively common phobia (especially this week in Sydney!) and I just wondered if it’s incidence has been reported anywhere. > > Thanks, > > Joanne > > Dr Joanne Righetti > > Animal Behaviour Consultant > > (02) 9416 9800 > > 0414 561 699 > > www.petproblemsolved.com.au > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kari D. Wallentine, D.V.M. Assistant Instructor Animal Sciences & Industry Kansas State University Subject: Searching for a postdoctoral position in animal behavior or animal welfare From: Xiuxiang Meng Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:39:03 +0800 (CST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca, applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Dear all I am writing to you to ask for the possibility to work in your group as a postdoc. This letter probably takes you by surprise, and I thank you for taking the time to read it. My name is Xiuxiang Meng. I am searching for a postdoctoral position in animal behaviour or animal welfare to start in 2008. I have obtained Ph.D in Animal Behavior from the Institute of Zoology, Chinese Academy of Sciences (Beijing China) in 2003. I finished the postdoctoral research this year at the School of Life Science, East China Normal University (Shanghai, China). I have been working in the area of behavioral ecology of captive and wild animals for a long time (from 1996). I studied the effects of housing and management on behavior of captive musk deer, and such topics as the stereotypic, behavioral diversity and redundancy, the behavioral and hormonal welfare assessing, and the reproduction performance of captive musk deer, panda, primates, moreover, I studied the chirp communication of cricket, and the population ecology and habitat selection of wild golden monkey, panda, wild boar and alpine musk deer. If there is potential postdoc position in your lab, I would like to join your group as a postdoc. I will appreciate very much if you could offer me the opportunity. If there isn’t postdoc position in your group, please kindly recommend me to your friends who could offer me such a position potentially. Enclosed please find my CV, selected published papers, which shows information on my educational & research experience as well as personal data. If you require any further information, please feel free to contact me. Your favorable consideration and recommendation will be highly appreciated. Thank you for your consideration and recommendation. Sincerely yours, Xiuxiang Meng College of Life and Environmental Sciences Central University of Nationalities 27#, ZhongGuanCun NaDaJie, 100081 Beijing, P. R. China E-mail: mengxiuxiang2006@hotmail.com Tel: +86-135-0134-7837; +86-10-6893-8163 Webpage: http://cles.cun.edu.cn/ReadNews.asp?NewsID=2516 Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news From: peterhaskins Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:49:25 +1100 To: ethology I'm sorry Peggy, I find that attitude particularly offensive. Two wrongs do not make a right. Even if you DO consider killing native animals a good thing or a necessary thing, there are much simpler, kinder and more effective ways than making blood sports out of it. Dare I say it? In the civilised world, such things are not tolerated. Even Great Britain has banned Fox hunting with hounds. You might find some of the information in these articles interesting. http://www.hsus.org/hsus_field/first_strike_the_connection_between_animal_cruelty_and_human_violence/animal_cruelty_and_family_violence_making_the_connection/animal_crueltydomestic_violence_fact_sheet.html or http://tinyurl.com/ctlad http://www.all-creatures.org/sof/psycruelty.html http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/188677.pdf Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Peggy Singletary Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:05 AM Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news Fair and balanced. Do you have photos of the reverse, showing coyotes killing dogs and attacking children? . http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/aurora.colorado.coyotes.2.562658.html http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/living/coyotes.htm Peggy Singletary Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news From: Kayce Cover Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:41:57 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Very informative articles, Peggy. Thanks for sending them. I was reading that coyotes are in all continental US states except Deleware now. Regards, Kayce > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Peggy Singletary > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:05 AM > > Subject: Re: indiana coyote rescue center news > > > > > > Fair and balanced. Do you have photos of the reverse, showing > > coyotes killing dogs and attacking children? > > . > > http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/aurora.colorado.coyotes.2.562658.html > > > > http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/living/coyotes.htm > > > > Peggy Singletary > > Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com Subject: Dog running pens From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 04:59:51 -0800 (PST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I was really surprised to find that dog trainers on this list would seem to approve of coyotes being released into a confined area to be chased and torn apart by dogs. The dogs that are used also do not have a good life. The techniques used to turn them into killer dogs are brutal. If a dog does not become a good killer, they are often killed, turned loose, or taken to shelters where they may be adopted to unsuspecting people. These dogs are horribly abused. They have many behaviour problems. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Re: Dog running pens From: Zen Trainer Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:38:27 -0600 To: Cecilia Lambert CC: Ethics List I have not been following this thread Cecilia, but 15 years ago when I became a dog trainer I was quite stunned to realize that most dog trainers were not dog (or animal) advocates. They were just trainers. They trained dogs to do whatever people thought they needed to do and used whatever means necessary. Hog /dog fighting has been in the news here recently and it didn't even occur to me that when we outlaw that, they'll move onto something else. It's really not good for hogs, dogs, coyotes or people. There is legislation to get dog fighting put under the RICO act. (If I am spelling that right - it's organized crime that involves more than one crime - fighting, gambling, drugs, etc) Hopefully that will include fighting animals of all kinds. I do think dog training is moving in a kinder, gentler, more thoughtful, direction but it's going a bit slowly for me Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 6:59 AM Subject: Dog running pens I was really surprised to find that dog trainers on this list would seem to approve of coyotes being released into a confined area to be chased and torn apart by dogs. The dogs that are used also do not have a good life. The techniques used to turn them into killer dogs are brutal. If a dog does not become a good killer, they are often killed, turned loose, or taken to shelters where they may be adopted to unsuspecting people. These dogs are horribly abused. They have many behaviour problems. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Re: Dog running pens From: John Burchard Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:29:38 -0800 To: Applied Ethology list Cecilia Lambert wrote: > > I was really surprised to find that dog trainers on this list would > > seem to approve of coyotes being released into a confined area to > > be chased and torn apart by dogs. The dogs that are used also do not > > have a good life. The techniques used to turn them into killer dogs > > are brutal. If a dog does not become a good killer, they are often > > killed, turned loose, or taken to shelters where they may be adopted > > to unsuspecting people. These dogs are horribly abused. They have > > many behaviour problems. I have stayed out of this until now, but must say I am rather surprised that *anyone* considers it useful for coyotes "to be released into a confined area to be chased and torn apart by dogs." If the objective is to train dogs to hunt coyotes, such procedure would seem a) unnecessary and b) probably counterproductive. Is this, in fact, something commonplace, or is it an aberration? I know a good many coyote hunters, who run down coyotes with sighthounds, and have never encountered such a practice. Coyotes are intensely hated by farmers and ranchers throughout the West, and their depredations tend to be greatly exaggerated and mythologized. Examination of the annually published USDA "depredation" statistics will give you an idea ... John -- John E. Burchard, Ph.D. Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/