From: IN%"ISAE.MEMBERSHIP@afrc.ac.uk" "ISAEMSEC" 7-DEC-1994 09:17:36.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE Membership Information ____________________________________________________________ _ _ _ / /_ /_ / /_ / _ / / / /_ International Society for Applied Ethology ____________________________________________________________ The Society was formed in 1966 as the Society for Veterinary Ethology. It rapidly expanded to cover all applied aspects of Ethology and other Behavioural Sciences which are relevant to many human-animal interactions such as farming, wildlife management, the keeping of pets and the control of pests. It has also become increasingly international: it now has a federal structure with Regional Secretaries in several European countries, USA, Canada and Australasia. In 1991 the society was renamed the International Society for Applied Ethology. REDUCED JOURNAL SUBSCRIPTION & NEWSLETTER In a special arrangement with Elsevier Science Publishers BV ISAE Members can subscribe to the journal APPLIED ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR SCIENCE at a reduced subscription rate of 95.00 UK Pounds per year. This is approximetely one-sixth of the standard subscription charged to libraries. Members also receive a Newsletter twice a year. MEMBERSHIP Membership is open to people involved in the fields of agriculture, veterinary science, zoology and other animal sciences. The current annual membership subscription is 10.00 UK Pounds. This can be paid by personal cheque, standing order (from UK bank accounts only), bankers order, bank transfer or by Visa, Mastercard or Eurocard credit card. Further details can be obtained from the Membership Secreatary or will be sent out on confirmation of membership. A Membership Application form can be obtained from: Dr S. Mark Rutter, ISAE Membership Secretary Institute of Grassland and Environmental Research North Wyke, Okehampton, Devon EX20 2SB UK International Fax : +44 837 82139 UK Fax : 0837 82139 e-mail : isae.membership@bbsrc.ac.uk ============================================================================== From: IN%"ISAE.MEMBERSHIP@afrc.ac.uk" "ISAEMSEC" 8-DEC-1994 06:33:57.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Appl Anim Behav Sci Subs ____________________________________________________________ _ _ _ / /_ /_ / /_ / _ / / / /_ International Society for Applied Ethology ____________________________________________________________ APPLIED ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR SCIENCE SUBSCRIPTIONS Would all ISAE members wishing to renew their subscription to AABS please do so as soon as possible! ____________________________________________________________ In a special arrangement with Elsevier Science Publishers BV ISAE Members can subscribe to the journal APPLIED ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR SCIENCE at a reduced subscription rate of 95.00 UK Pounds per year. For further information about journal subscriptions and/or ISAE membership please contact: Dr S. Mark Rutter, ISAE/AABS Institute of Grassland and Environmental Research North Wyke, Okehampton, Devon EX20 2SB UK International Fax : +44 837 82139 UK Fax : 0837 82139 e-mail : isae.membership@bbsrc.ac.uk =============================================================================== From: IN%"rhb11@hermes.cambridge.ac.uk" "R.H. Bradshaw" 9-DEC-1994 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: fear Dear All, I have a colleague who is working on the genetic basis of fear in game birds. He is beginning to think about how best to assess fear. I wondered if anyone out there could provide: (1) Suggestions for behavioural measures of fear e.g. tonic immobility (2) the most recent opinion and references on the measurement of fear. Whether this sparks a network debate concerning the measurement of fear remains to be seen (hint). Thank you very much, And Happy Christmas to you all, Harry, (Dr Harry Bradshaw, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, Madingley Road, Cambridge CB3 OES.) ============================================================================= From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 15-DEC-1994 12:07:55.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: measuring fear > >Dear All, >Regarding the measurement of fear, I only know about rats. In their case, one >typically measures it by conditioned suppression. A cue is paired with shock >and the cue's subsequent capacity to inhibit an appetitive operant task is >later measured. See J.Gray "The Psychology of Fear and Stress" for example. >If further details wanted let me know. >Regards to all, >Fred (Toates) > > I fail to see how that protocol measures "fear". Clearly, the rat has learned a cue that warns of impending discomfort, but that hardly suggests that fear is associated. That is, cattle learn to avoid an electric fence, but I suspect that there is no fear involved; only a learned avoidance of discomfort; much as they learn to avoid thistles or a briar patch. On an anthropomorphic level, I learned to avoid gravel driveways in my bare feet, but I hardly fear them. D.B. Cameron, DVM -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) =============================================================================== From: IN%"Colleen.Garbe@med.umich.edu" "Coleen Garbe" 15-DEC-1994 13:13:18.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: measuring fear >Dear All, >Regarding the measurement of fear, I only know about rats. In their case, one >typically measures it by conditioned suppression. A cue is paired with shock >and the cue's subsequent capacity to inhibit an appetitive operant task is >later measured. See J.Gray "The Psychology of Fear and Stress" for example. >If further details wanted let me know. >Regards to all, >Fred (Toates) > > As an undergraduate I studied fear/anxiety in mice while working with Ernest Kemble. We used several paradigms to analyze fear-motivated behaviors. We looked at time spent investigating odor compartments (mice spent more time in maze arms containing conspecific odors than novel odors, and more time investigating unfamiliar conspecific odors than familiar dominant odors). We looked at risk assessment (flatback approach, freezing) and appetitive behaviors in animals exposed to novel or familiar odors (Cat fur, sheep wool, chocolate and citronella induced risk assessment- presumably fear motivated). Finally, we looked at the effects of novel odors on aggressive behavior of residents towards intruders (Resident males and lactating females exposed to novel odors showed more defensive postures, no difference in offensive attack). I can list references if anyone would like further information. In addition, I would suggest reviewing work by R. and D. C. Blanchard. They have used several other measures of fear in rats. Colleen Garbe Colleen.Garbe@med.umich.edu ============================================================================== From: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" 15-DEC-1994 13:32:11.61 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Suggestions for Applied Animal Behav. Sci. Hello Everybody, as many of you know, through a special arrangement with the publishers, Elsevier, the International Society for Applied Ethology (ISAE) is responsible for editing one special issue a year of the journal Applied Animal Behaviour Science. The first such issue is currently under production, and plans for the second issue are being finalized. I am taking this opportunity to ask you all for suggestions for the third such issue (to be prepared during 1995-1996 and published 1997). If you have any ideas please send them to me, preferably with a list of possible authors. I would like to discuss all possibilities at the next summer meeting of the ISAE in August 1996. One thought that occurred to me was an update of the Brambell report. This was published more or less thirty years ago (1965) and played a major part in initiating research into the welfare of farm animals. Occassionally I have heard depressing comments to the effect that we have in fact progressed little beyond that time. Perhaps we do need an in-depth review of progress since then. Another possibility might be the applied ethology of laboratory animals. Thoughts? Suggestions? Comments? Jeff Rushen ISAE Editor rushenj@ncccot.agr.ca fax:1-819-5645507 ============================================================================= From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 15-DEC-1994 14:33:29.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: measuring fear Seems to me that all of the described protocols can just as easily measure caution, prudence, curiosity, or perhaps a variety of other reactions. Could we please have a definition of fear, so that we all are discussing the same thing. > >>Dear All, >>Regarding the measurement of fear, I only know about rats. In their case, one >>typically measures it by conditioned suppression. A cue is paired with shock >>and the cue's subsequent capacity to inhibit an appetitive operant task is >>later measured. See J.Gray "The Psychology of Fear and Stress" for example. >>If further details wanted let me know. >>Regards to all, >>Fred (Toates) >> >> >As an undergraduate I studied fear/anxiety in mice while working with >Ernest Kemble. We used several paradigms to analyze fear-motivated >behaviors. We looked at time spent investigating odor compartments >(mice spent more time in maze arms containing conspecific odors than >novel odors, and more time investigating unfamiliar conspecific odors >than familiar dominant odors). We looked at risk assessment >(flatback approach, freezing) and appetitive behaviors in animals >exposed to novel or familiar odors (Cat fur, sheep wool, chocolate >and citronella induced risk assessment- presumably fear motivated). >Finally, we looked at the effects of novel odors on aggressive >behavior of residents towards intruders (Resident males and lactating >females exposed to >novel odors showed more defensive postures, no difference in >offensive attack). I can list references if anyone would like >further information. In addition, I would suggest reviewing work by >R. and D. C. Blanchard. They have used several other measures of >fear in rats. > >Colleen Garbe >Colleen.Garbe@med.umich.edu > > -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) =============================================================================== From: IN%"F.Toates@open.ac.uk" "F.Toates (Fred Toates)" 16-DEC-1994 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: fear Dear all, If an animal can take preemptive action in response to a cue predicting shock then indeed there is evidence that the fear associated with the cue diminishes (such effects are well described in the psychology literature and do indeed fit common intuition). If it cannot and the shock is unavoidable, I would suppose that it is useful to say it is in a state of fear as indicated by a suppression of appetitive activity. One cannot open the beast up and see something that is an unambiguous measure of fear. Fear is something one infers from behavioural measures, autonomic indices and a certain amount of empathy. Regards, Fred (Toates) ============================================================================== From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 18-DEC-1994 10:25:41.28 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: fear So that we can all have some objective understanding of the present subject, I offer two definitions of fear. First a general one from Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary, Second Edition: FEAR: A feeling of anxiety and agitation caused by the presence ' of danger, evil, pain, etc.; timidity; dread; terror; fright; apprehension. The second is from a reference more specific to our animal oriented group: The Veterinarian's Encyclopedia of Animal Behavior by Bonnie V. Beaver, BS, DVM, Diplomate ACVB. 1994. FEAR: Fear is a feeling of apprehension resulting from the nearness of some situation or object. When the degree of fear is excessive, the feeling is called phobia. (This is followed by a series of subheads from Fear Biting to Fear of Thunder.) Since both of these definitions are founded on a "feeling", admittedly we are likely to have difficulty with agreeing on a behavior that evidences such a feeling. Even so, I suggest that the animal that "takes preemptive action in response to a cue predicting shock" cannot reliably be said to be feeling fear. Avoiding discomfort is just not necessarily associated, in any way, with fear. Animals, from worms to men, avoid discomforts, large and small, every day in all kinds of ways, without the slightest bit of fear involved. I offered some illustrations (avoiding briar patches, etc.) of this point in a previous post; I'll offer one more here. The natural cues of thunder, lightening, and high wind gusts quite usually stimulate nearly all individuals of all kinds of species to take preemptive action to avoid the storm. Yet we know quite well that only a very few actually fear the storm. Most just want to avoid the discomfort of the driving, cold rain. In fact, a few clearly enjoy the storm ambience once they are away from its unpleasant effects. Also, in a sort of reverse perspective, any competant trainer can train most higher animals to take a preemptive avoidence type response to a given cue, useing positive reinforcement as the primary reinforcer. The net is that apparently we are left with inferences and empathy, if we are to accept the previous posting (below). I suggest that if significant decisions are to be made on that basis, they are guaranteed to be flawed. I doubt that my empathy is the same from one week to the next, and certainly my empathy is guaranteed to be different from yours. Is there a better, objective way to determine the presence of fear? Can it be quantified? Are scientists willing to deal with fear like the law deals with pornography; something akin to, "I cannot tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it,"? > >Dear all, > >If an animal can take preemptive action in response to a cue predicting shock >then indeed there is evidence that the fear associated with the cue diminishes >(such effects are well described in the psychology literature and do indeed fit >common intuition). If it cannot and the shock is unavoidable, I would suppose >that it is useful to say it is in a state of fear as indicated by a suppression >of appetitive activity. One cannot open the beast up and see something that is >an unambiguous measure of fear. Fear is something one infers from behavioural >measures, autonomic indices and a certain amount of empathy. >Regards, >Fred (Toates) > > -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) ============================================================================== From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 18-DEC-1994 10:49:42.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Rats and Ferrets I cannot offer a referenced answer to your question, but the answer is probably of little practical concern. The reason I say this is because individuals quite normally habituate to an initially perceived stress if the stress has no unpleasant consequences. To illustrate, individuals of most species typically are concerned with loud noises (guns, thunder, etc.), but if the noise is not associated with some significant discomfort, the normal individual soon tunes out the noise as just "part of life". Thus, even if you are absolutely correct with your gut feelings (I hope you don't do brain surgery on that basis), your charges quite normally adjust to the danger cue (the odor) because it is not followed up with an actual unpleasant event. > > I have been lurking on the list for a while now and have very much > enjoyed the discussions. > > I am a laboratory animal veterinarian working for a large > pharmaceutical company with a diversified animal facility. I have > a great interest in animal behavior and am a strong proponent of > animal welfare. For those reasons, I subscribe to this list and > also often get into trouble with my employer (animal welfare > concerns do not increase profits). > > I am currently having a "discussion" with my boss about laboratory > rats and ferrets. I think that ferrets are natural predators of > rats and so rats will get scared when they smell ferrets. I say > that when we have both rats and ferrets in our animal facility we > should strive to keep them far apart to avoid all the physiological > changes associated with fear in the rats. My boss says that > laboratory rats have led such protected lives for so many > generations that they won't recognize ferrets as predators and > won't undergo any physiologic changes. > > Can anyone provide any references on any experiments performed with > laboratory rats and natural predators, or any similar information > that could help to settle this? > > As it stands now, I am being looked upon as making a fuss over a > non-issue. However, I really do believe, though based only on gut > feelings, that the smell of ferrets, dogs, etc. is frightening to > rats and mice. I am looking to you folks as the experts for the > answers. This is a real-life applied ethology situation! Can > anyone help? > > > Marilyn Chimes, DVM > Abbott Laboratories > chimes.marilyn@igate.abbott.com > > > > -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) ============================================================================== From: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.edinburgh.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 19-DEC-1994 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: fear Dear All This week's Nature (15th December, volume 372 p 669) has a report on a woman with damaged amygdala who can't recognise fear (or other negative emotions, although less emphasis is placed on this) on other people's faces. She has no problem with positive emotions, so let's hope she has a happy Christmas too! Mike ============================================================================== From: IN%"mrenner@wcupa.edu" "Renner, Michael" 19-DEC-1994 06:40:11.14 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology List'" CC: Subj: RE: Rats and Ferrets The rats will probably behaviorally habituation, but I wouldn't rule out an ongoing stress without some clear evidence. You'd think, for a company doing for-profit work on physiology, that they'd want to be sure they were dealing with normal animals and not some odd, sympathetically overloaded types? Regarding predation, I don't know about ferrets directly, but their close cousin the polecat most definitely IS a rat predator. There have even been studies the effect of the presence of a polecat on rat behavior (and mortality) that may be useful to you. Check the paper by Roeder, Chetcuti, & Will (1980) - Biology of Behavior, vol. 2?, p361 ff. It's about differential survival under predation in rats, depending on their previous experience histories, but has background information and references that may be helpful. Finally, check the fine print in the animal care regulations. I know that different species can't be housed together, and the definition of "together" depends partly on shared air supply. At the very least, you should insist -- in the absence of evidence that there are NO negative effects of the ferrets on the rats -- that the ferrets be "downstream" or "downwind" from the rats (in terms of air handling). Good luck. Michael Renner MRenner@Wcupa.Edu ---------- From: applied-ethology-error To: applied-ethology Subject: Rats and Ferrets Date: Friday, December 16, 1994 1:20PM I have been lurking on the list for a while now and have very much enjoyed the discussions. I am a laboratory animal veterinarian working for a large pharmaceutical company with a diversified animal facility. I have a great interest in animal behavior and am a strong proponent of animal welfare. For those reasons, I subscribe to this list and also often get into trouble with my employer (animal welfare concerns do not increase profits). I am currently having a "discussion" with my boss about laboratory rats and ferrets. I think that ferrets are natural predators of rats and so rats will get scared when they smell ferrets. I say that when we have both rats and ferrets in our animal facility we should strive to keep them far apart to avoid all the physiological changes associated with fear in the rats. My boss says that laboratory rats have led such protected lives for so many generations that they won't recognize ferrets as predators and won't undergo any physiologic changes. Can anyone provide any references on any experiments performed with laboratory rats and natural predators, or any similar information that could help to settle this? As it stands now, I am being looked upon as making a fuss over a non-issue. However, I really do believe, though based only on gut feelings, that the smell of ferrets, dogs, etc. is frightening to rats and mice. I am looking to you folks as the experts for the answers. This is a real-life applied ethology situation! Can anyone help? Marilyn Chimes, DVM Abbott Laboratories chimes.marilyn@igate.abbott.com ============================================================================== From: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" 19-DEC-1994 09:26:15.39 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: How broad is the ISAE? Hello All, The International Society for Applied Ethology began life as a British society principally studying farm animals. Since then, particularly recently, the ISAE has tried to become more international and has tried to encourage closer links with other areas of applied ethology, such as those concerning pets, lab and zoo animals. The following (rough) breakdown of abstracts submitted for the next congress in the UK gives one measure of the success of these efforts. A few points emerge. 1. The ISAE is still obsessed with the British pig. 2. The UK continues to dominate in terms of papers submitted, but the fact that the conference is in the UK accounts for some of this. 3. The USA still has very little involvement (2%) with most of the North American contributions coming from Canada. 4. Continuing healthy contributions from Benelux and Scanadanavia, although Sweden is dropping (2%). 5. Japan making the biggest Asian showing ever! 6. Still little involvement from France. 7. Farm animals still continue to dominate heavily, although there is a welcome increase in the papers dealing with companion animals (i.e. `pets' as they used to be called). 8. There is still minimal input concerning lab. or zoo animals. Personally, I think this is the biggest weakness. Geographical entity % of papers ____________________________________________________ UK 47 Benelux 9 Scandanavia 9 North America 9 Japan 7 Germany, Switzerland, Austria 6 Eastern Europe 5 Italy 3 Down under (Australia, NZ) 3 France 2 ____________________________________________________ Animal type % of papers Farm animals 76 Pigs 27 Cattle 23 Poultry 19 Sheep 6 Goats 1 Companion animals 11 Fur animals 5 Lab animals 5 Horses 2 Zoo animals 1 ============================================================================ From: IN%"Michael_HUTCHINS@umail.umd.edu" 19-DEC-1994 10:41:23.50 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: How broad is the ISAE? Thanks for the information regarding participation in the Society for Applied Ethology. I was interested to see that you considered participation by zoo biologists important. I am a behavioral ecologist by training and have done a great deal of research on the application of animal behavior to wildlife conservation, both in the wild and in captivity. As Director of Conservation and Science for the American Zoo and Aquarium Association (AZA), I oversee the cooperative conservation and scientific activities of nearly 170 zoological institutions in the United States and Canda. The AZA has over 100 committees working on conservation and scientific issues. A Behavior and Husbandy Scientific Advisory Group was formed in 1993 to address issues in applied ethology. The chairs are Dr. Jill Mellen, Coordinator of Research and Conservation, Metro Washington Park Zoo, Portland, OR and Dr. Kathy Carlstead, Behaviorist, National Zoological Park, Washington, DC. I am sure that the group would be interested in some sort of liaison with the Society. Have you ever considered forming a zoo interest group? There is a great need for the application of behavioral research to zoo animal management and reintroduction techniques. There is also a need to explore the interface between animal behavior and wildlife conservation in general. Michael Hutchins, Ph.D. AZA Director, Conservation and Science mh173@umail.umd.edu ============================================================================== From: IN%"lhenley@sunmuw1.muw.edu" "Lani Lyman-Henley" 19-DEC-1994 To: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.edinburgh.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: fear Just a note on the current "fear debate"- I personally agree with the posting that fear, being an emotion, will be extremelely difficult (if possible) to quantify, and that avoidance does not necessarily indicate fear. (I avoid country music, but that doesn't mean I fear it :> ). On top of that, people often ask if the mice and rats I feed to snakes are "frightened" when I put them in the tank....Indeed their behavior is apprehensive, as it is in any new environment, but since they will walk up and sniff the snake's nose, walk on it, and even curl up and sleep next to a snake on the heat pad, I don't believe that there is any strong innate "fear" here. If the snake strikes and misses, of course the mouse's behavior changes and I may be willing to accept a label of fear. *********************************************************************** Lani Lyman-Henley, PhD email: lhenley@sunmuw1.muw.edu Division of Science & Math phone: (601) 329-7381 (office) Mississippi University for Women P.O.Box W 100 Columbus, MS 39701 FAX: (601) 329-7238 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "More than iron, more than lead, more than gold I need electricity. I need it more than I need lamb or pork or lettuce or cucumber. I need it for my dreams." -poetry by Ractor ********************************************************************** From: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" 19-DEC-1994 13:43:09.39 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: fear The extent that measures of aversion can be used to indicate fear depends on how much the animal is prepared to pay to avoid the treament. Simply avoiding country music does not necessarily indicate a "fear" of country music. However, if someone was willing to go hungry for a week in order not to hear country music then we could conclude that the person found country music highly aversive. Furthermore, if the person was presented with a signal (or conditioned stimulus) indicating that country music was about to be played (and that this could not be avoided) then I suggest that the person would show many of the behavioural and physiological responses associated with fear. Jeff Rushen ============================================================================== From: IN%"lhenley@sunmuw1.muw.edu" "Lani Lyman-Henley" 19-DEC-1994 To: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" CC: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: fear Exactly my point. Since eating liver makes me naseous, I would exhibit such behavior as many are attributing to fear....but I *still* don't fear it!! Lani Lyman-Henley ============================================================================== From: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" 19-DEC-1994 15:52:11.13 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"lhenley@sunmuw1.muw.edu" Subj: fear, country music and liver >Exactly my point. Since eating liver makes me naseous, I would exhibit >such behavior as many are attributing to fear....but I *still* don't fear >it!! >Lani Lyman-Henley But if you thought that you were about to be forcefed liver wouldn't you be frightened? Jeff Rushen ============================================================================== From: IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu" 19-DEC-1994 16:31:55.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: fear of bears On the subject of fear, I would like someone to tell me why my 21 month-old son persists in replaying a particular scene on the video of The Incredible Journey in which the aged bull-terrier, Bodger, is attacked by an enraged she-bear. The scene frightens the stuffing out of the poor little chap, but he keeps coming back for more. Now the orthodox view is that fear is a highly aversive emotion which helps to condition one to avoid the fear evoking situation or stimulus quickly. One trial learning and all that stuff. So why should anyone or anything seek out stimuli which they know will result in loss of bowel control, etc? Is there an 'appetite' for fear arousing things? Do animals other than humans display it? The only example that comes to me is mobbing behaviour in birds but some of you may have further ideas...I hope. James Serpell ============================================================================= From: IN%"P_ALBERS@NICI.KUN.NL" "PAUL C.H. ALBERS" 20-DEC-1994 04:20:30.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: fear >From: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" 20-DEC-1994 09:09:03.65 >To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" >Subj: fear > >The extent that measures of aversion can be used to >indicate fear depends on how much the animal is prepared >to pay to avoid the treament. Simply avoiding country music >does not necessarily indicate a "fear" of country music. However, >if someone was willing to go hungry for a week in order not to hear >country music then we could conclude that the person found >country music highly aversive. Furthermore, if the person was >presented with a signal (or conditioned stimulus) indicating that country >music was about to be played (and that this could not be avoided) then I >suggest that the person would show many of the behavioural and >physiological responses associated with fear. > >Jeff Rushen Dear all, wouldn't someone agree with me that 'fear' is a solely human invention? We speak of fear when we show or try to suppress the behavioural and physiological responses associated with flight. Is not the word 'fear' redundant when describing these responses? I think the kind of responses decide whether we "empathically" call something 'fear'. If the person was presented with a signal (or conditioned stimulus) indicating that country music was about to be played (and that this could not be avoided) and in reaction to that he would have Dolly Parton, John Denver and the entire Jack Daniels Band killed I think very little people would automatically conclude that this person 'fears' country music. The word 'fear' only mistifies what we are trying to achieve: describing which stimuli to which extent make animals want to flee. Describing it in such terms would make the word 'fear' unnessescary. Paul Albers Dep. of Comparative and Physiological Psychology University of Nijmegen, the Netherlands ============================================================================= From: IN%"mrenner@wcupa.edu" "Renner, Michael" 20-DEC-1994 04:20:47.34 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology List'" CC: Subj: FW: fear of bears Somehow, the opponent-process theory of motivation seems relevant here. The situation is analogous to the "why do skydivers keep jumping" studies that formed the backbone of Solomon, et al.'s argument. You tolerate -- even initiate -- the scary situation because the good feeling that comes when it's over is more reinforcing than the situation itself is scary. ---------- From: applied-ethology-error To: applied-ethology Subject: fear of bears Date: Monday, December 19, 1994 4:27PM On the subject of fear, I would like someone to tell me why my 21 month-old son persists in replaying a particular scene on the video of The Incredible Journey in which the aged bull-terrier, Bodger, is attacked by an enraged she-bear. The scene frightens the stuffing out of the poor little chap, but he keeps coming back for more. Now the orthodox view is that fear is a highly aversive emotion which helps to condition one to avoid the fear evoking situation or stimulus quickly. One trial learning and all that stuff. So why should anyone or anything seek out stimuli which they know will result in loss of bowel control, etc? Is there an 'appetite' for fear arousing things? Do animals other than humans display it? The only example that comes to me is mobbing behaviour in birds but some of you may have further ideas...I hope. James Serpell ============================================================================== From: IN%"D.B.MORTON@BHAM.ac.uk" 20-DEC-1994 04:44:11.84 To: IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: anxiety and fear James, So far as I'm aware no-one has quoted the definition of fear by the AVMA (JAVMA 1987, vol.191, pp1187) which incorporates one of your points - prior exposure. "Anxiety and fear may have the same evolutionary benefit as pain. Anxiety is activated by novel stimuli to increase the state of the animal's awareness. When placed in an unfamiliar environment, a rat initially will become motionless before cautiously beginning to explore its new surroundings. Anxiety can be defined as an emotional state involving increased arousal and alertness prompted by an unknown danger that may be present in the immediate environment. Fear can be defined similarly, except that fear would refer to an experienced or known danger in the immediate environment. Thus, anxiety appears to be a generalised, unfocused response to the unknown, and fear is a focused response to a known object or previous experience. A dog may tremble in a veterinarian's examination room during the first visit because of anxiety about what will happen. On the second visit, the dog may whine or try to escape from fear of a remembered event." Thats one veterinary version anyway. David Prof.David.B.Morton | Janet: D.B.Morton@uk.ac.bham Biomedical Science and Ethics | Internet: D.B.Morton@bham.ac.uk The Medical School | University of Birmingham | Birmingham | Tel: +44 - (0)121 414 3616 B15 2TT, UK Fax: +44 - (0)121 414 6979 =============================================================================== From: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" 20-DEC-1994 08:11:13.67 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: fear and bears From James Serpell: >On the subject of fear, I would like someone to tell me why my 21 >month-old son persists in replaying a particular scene on the >video of The Incredible Journey in which the aged bull-terrier, >Bodger, is attacked by an enraged she-bear. The scene frightens >the stuffing out of the poor little chap, but he keeps coming > >back for more. I havent seen this film but I imagine that poor old Bodger survives and limps away gallantly, licking his wounds. Consequently the fear producing situation is resolved and I imagine it is the relief that keeps your son hooked. If the she-bear had ripped Bodger into shreds (as any self-respecting bear probably would) I doubt that he would be so enthralled. >Now the orthodox view is that fear is a highly aversive emotion >which helps to condition one to avoid the fear evoking situation >or stimulus quickly. One trial learning and all that stuff. So >why should anyone or anything seek out stimuli which they know >will result in loss of bowel control, etc? Is there an 'appetite' >for fear arousing things? Bjorn Forkman has suggested that animals will work for food even if free food is available because they also get information about other food sources. Perhaps this is also explains the attraction of fearful events. They can be informative about potential sources of danger and informative about how to avoid them. Roller coasters are terrifying but people regularly survive so they give some sense (false) of mastery. If roller coasters hurled people to their deaths with a perceivable probability, I would imagine that people would stop riding on them. Jeff Rushen ============================================================================= From: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.edinburgh.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 20-DEC-1994 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: motivation Dear All Just in case no-one else replies to Paul Albers, I shall. No, we can not just list the stimuli and the responses and dispense with the intervening variable of motivation - in this case fear. Humans do not work like that and neither do animals, as the meeting in London earlier this month began at last to emphasise after too many years of this sort of behaviourism. Mike Appleby ============================================================================== From: IN%"lwilliam@jaguar1.usouthal.edu" "Lawrence E. Williams" 20-DEC-1994 To: IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu" "James A. Serpell" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: fear of bears If you stop and think, about 90 to 100% of the entertainment business is based on the physiological rush that humans get in the controlled expression of fear. Roller coaster rides, scarey movies, and playing in organized sports all ellicite that same feeling. Your message started me thinking about animal play. If it can be correlated with human play, could animal play be related to this physiological rush? Has anyone done heart rate etc measurements during play? If there is a relationship and since, in humans at least, the rush can be very rewarding, could we use the opportunity to play to modify the behavior of animals? I don't know of any research that has looked directly at this question, can anyone help? Larry .-----------------------------------------------------------------------. | Lawrence Williams, PhD lwilliam@jaguar1.usouthal.edu | | Primate Research Laboratory voice: (205) 460-7825 | | University of South Alabama fax: (205) 460-6286 | | Mobile, AL 36688-0001 | '-----------------------------------------------------------------------' From: IN%"mrenner@wcupa.edu" "Renner, Michael" 20-DEC-1994 09:25:35.74 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology List'" CC: Subj: fear and the rush (was ". . . bears") Notice that I did not say "fear OF Rush . . ." This is a wonderful thread! Now it's got me thinking about a similar concept, related to my own work in curiosity. Rather than requiring a major sympathetic NS rush, all that's really required for this explanation to work is some reinforcing modulation of arousal level. This would let us view many conditions, such as mild fear, exploration, investigation, exercise, etc. all being ways to regulate some optimal arousal level. Hmmm. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Michael J. Renner Department of Psychology West Chester University West Chester, PA 19383 Voice: 610-436-2925 Fax: 610-436-3150 Internet: MRenner@Wcupa.Edu ---------- From: applied-ethology-error To: James A. Serpell Cc: Applied Ethology Subject: Re: fear of bears Date: Tuesday, December 20, 1994 8:58AM If you stop and think, about 90 to 100% of the entertainment business is based on the physiological rush that humans get in the controlled expression of fear. Roller coaster rides, scarey movies, and playing in organized sports all ellicite that same feeling. Your message started me thinking about animal play. If it can be correlated with human play, could animal play be related to this physiological rush? Has anyone done heart rate etc measurements during play? If there is a relationship and since, in humans at least, the rush can be very rewarding, could we use the opportunity to play to modify the behavior of animals? I don't know of any research that has looked directly at this question, can anyone help? Larry .-----------------------------------------------------------------------. | Lawrence Williams, PhD lwilliam@jaguar1.usouthal.edu | | Primate Research Laboratory voice: (205) 460-7825 | | University of South Alabama fax: (205) 460-6286 | | Mobile, AL 36688-0001 | '-----------------------------------------------------------------------' From: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" 20-DEC-1994 09:51:49.55 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: fear and rushing bears Many of the hormonal changes that occur during fearful situations e.g. release of ACTH, corticosteroids, adrenalin have been shown to substantially improve learning ability. Therefore being frightened or aroused may be highly effective means of learning about the situation. Participating in frightening situations (where the chance of actually dying is acceptably small) could be beneficial to animals in teaching them in advance how to deal with dangerous events. Jeff Rushen =============================================================================== From: IN%"D.B.MORTON@BHAM.ac.uk" 20-DEC-1994 10:29:41.85 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: anxiety and fear To James Serpell James, So far as I'm aware no-one has quoted the definition of fear by the AVMA (JAVMA 1987, vol.191, pp1187) which incorporates one of your points - prior exposure. "Anxiety and fear may have the same evolutionary benefit as pain. Anxiety is activated by novel stimuli to increase the state of the animal's awareness. When placed in an unfamiliar environment, a rat initially will become motionless before cautiously beginning to explore its new surroundings. Anxiety can be defined as an emotional state involving increased arousal and alertness prompted by an unknown danger that may be present in the immediate environment. Fear can be defined similarly, except that fear would refer to an experienced or known danger in the immediate environment. Thus, anxiety appears to be a generalised, unfocused response to the unknown, and fear is a focused response to a known object or previous experience. A dog may tremble in a veterinarian's examination room during the first visit because of anxiety about what will happen. On the second visit, the dog may whine or try to escape from fear of a remembered event." That's one veterinary version anyway. David M Prof.David.B.Morton | Janet: D.B.Morton@uk.ac.bham Biomedical Science and Ethics | Internet: D.B.Morton@bham.ac.uk The Medical School | University of Birmingham | Birmingham | Tel: +44 - (0)121 414 3616 B15 2TT, UK Fax: +44 - (0)121 414 6979 =============================================================================== From: IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu" 20-DEC-1994 10:51:40.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: fear of Russian bears I think I agree with everyone except Paul Albers and Lani Lyman-Henley. However, some of you are explaining things in terms of immediate causation while others are seeking functional explanations. On careful reflection, I am sure the Mendl-Rushen functional idea is correct: that the putative 'appetite' for fearful situations serves as a way of learning about potentially dangerous situations. A test of the hypothesis would be if this behavior occurs only in situations, like our living room, where the actual risks of bear attack are very low. Hence also birds mobbing owls, heiffers chasing dogs, etc. Also, one would expect this sort of behavior to tail off in older, more experienced individuals (I am sure this is true, but I don't know what the animal evidence would be). On the assumption that the organism would need some sort positive inducement to seek out alarming or frightening stimuli, I am also sure that the Solomon-Renner idea of a reinforcing rush, buzz, kick, etc., is also part of the equation. All of this raises interesting questions about where on the aroused-alarmed-frightened-terrified continuum a stimulus or situation switches from being attractive to aversive, and how this may vary according to age, species, experience and context. I am enjoying this. James Serpell ============================================================================= From: IN%"IDUNCAN@APS.UoGuelph.CA" 20-DEC-1994 11:16:11.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fear Dear all, It seems that some people on the applied ethology network are discovering fear for the first time. There is plenty of information out there on fear - some of it quite old. I suggest starting with :- Gray, J., 1971. The Psychology of Fear and Stress. Weidenfeld & Nicolson, London. This covers the fundamentals. Murphy, L.B., 1978. The practical problems of recognizing and measuring fear and exploration behaviour in the domestic fowl. Anim. Behav., 26: 422-431. This covers more applied aspects (and also covers exploration - which is beginning to creep into the present discussion). Mike Appleby comments that fear may be considered as an intervening variable. In fact, one can go further and state that fear may be considered as a hypothetical construct, which term is more committed to the real properties of the systems involved and goes beyond the simple description implied by "intervening variable". In this case, the systems involved are the brain and neuroendocrine system. It seems to me that the concept of fear has beeen extremely useful in the past 20 years. By "useful" I mean that when it is invoked in a model of behaviour, it increases predictive power. In the same way, surely everyone would agree that the concepts of hunger and thirst are useful? On the other hand, I think that the concept of "boredom" is much less useful simply because it has not been properly axiomatized. That these concepts are useful, seems to me to be without doubt. Whether or not any of these states are experienced consciously by animals is another question. I believe that the weight of evidence strongly supports the position that the vertebrates and higher invertebrates do experience them consciously. For an eloquent review of this topic see Marian Dawkins' 1993 book "Through Our Eyes Only". With regard to Harry Bradshaw's original questions, I suggest he contact :- 1. Bryan Jones, Roslin Institute, Edinburgh for a list of the indicators of fear in birds. 2. Jean-Michel Faure in Nouzilly, France (faure@tours.inra.fr) who has been involved in genetic selection for and against fear in game birds (pheasants and, I think, quail) for many years. Yours, Ian Duncan ============================================================================= From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@nlh10.nlh.no" 22-DEC-1994 05:02:15.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Fear - book by Gray Ian Duncan recommended this book: >Gray, J., 1971. The Psychology of Fear and Stress. Weidenfeld & > Nicolson, London. >This covers the fundamentals. This book has come in a 2nd edition published in 1987 by Cambridge University Press, in the series Problems in Behavioural Science, no. 5. Bjarne Bjarne O. Braastad Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway Phone: +47 64947980 Fax: +47 64947960 E-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no ============================================================================== From: IN%"mrenner@wcupa.edu" "Renner, Michael" 22-DEC-1994 06:49:55.13 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology List'" CC: Subj: FW: fear and rushing bears There was a wonderful article in "Scientific American" a few years ago by Mortimer Mishkin and one or two colleagues on just this topic. Likewise, James McGaugh has done some interesting work on related brain mechanisms. It seems as though arousal (sympathetic NS activation, with involvment of the amygdala) "marks" an event as important enough to remember, and this triggers OTHER brain events that consolidate the memory into long term storage. (That explains the perplexing series of results from the 1970's that adrenalectomy impaired memory, and certain hormone analogues that DON'T cross the blood-brain-barrier, when given peripherally could still affect memory.) Fun stuff. ---------- From: applied-ethology-error To: APPLIED-ETHOLOGY Subject: fear and rushing bears Date: Tuesday, December 20, 1994 10:38AM Many of the hormonal changes that occur during fearful situations e.g. release of ACTH, corticosteroids, adrenalin have been shown to substantially improve learning ability. Therefore being frightened or aroused may be highly effective means of learning about the situation. Participating in frightening situations (where the chance of actually dying is acceptably small) could be beneficial to animals in teaching them in advance how to deal with dangerous events. Jeff Rushen ============================================================================== From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 23-DEC-1994 15:42:19.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: fear >indicate fear depends on how much the animal is prepared >to pay to avoid the treament. Simply avoiding country music >does not necessarily indicate a "fear" of country music. However, >if someone was willing to go hungry for a week in order not to hear >country music then we could conclude that the person found >country music highly aversive. Furthermore, if the person was >presented with a signal (or conditioned stimulus) indicating that country >music was about to be played (and that this could not be avoided) then I >suggest that the person would show many of the behavioural and >physiological responses associated with fear. > >Jeff Rushen > > Yes you would be able to say that, from a very subjective perspective. And that being the case the country music phobe might well be able to correct you by reporting that there was no fear involved; just a severe revulsion. That is, what an empathetic observer diagnosis from external observations and tests, is not necessarily what the subject is experiencing internally. Even in human psychology where we can speak to the subject, the most that external observers are willing to say is: - The subject is aroused minimally or highly. - The reaction is positive (attraction) or negative (escape). If humans observing humans cannot objectively and reliably recognize and document fear (and other emotions), how can we animal observers claim to do so? -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) ============================================================================= From: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" 28-DEC-1994 14:10:54.04 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Bears fear country music >the country music phobe might well be able to correct you by >reporting that there was no fear involved; just a severe >revulsion. That is, what an empathetic observer diagnosis from >external observations and tests, is not necessarily what the >subject is experiencing internally. But who is right- the external observer or the person describing the experience? Suppose James Serpell saw his son watching his bear video, with his head under the pillow, shaking, sweating and whimpering, and he asked him `are you afraid?`. If his son, perhaps wanting to emulate his macho father, said with a shaking voice `no, I'm bored`, would James necessarily believe him? A verbal report is only one piece of evidence we use to infer the mental state of someone, and we dont always give it the highest weighting. > Even in human psychology where we can speak to the subject, >the most that external observers are willing to say is: > - The subject is aroused minimally or highly. > - The reaction is positive (attraction) or negative (escape). > If humans observing humans cannot objectively and reliably >recognize and document fear (and other emotions), how can we >animal observers claim to do so? > > >-- > DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) I dont disagree. I think all we can do, with some precision, is indicate whether the experience is aversive or attractive and roughly the magnitude of the aversion. We can give some guess as to whether the aversion involves fear, revulsion etc. But that is not important. In assessing animal welfare, all we need to know is whether an experience is aversive or not. Jeff Rushen =============================================================================== From: IN%"lhenley@sunmuw1.muw.edu" "Lani Lyman-Henley" 28-DEC-1994 To: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" CC: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Bears fear country music I've been gone a few days, I see the thread is still going (and that my snide remark about country music has made some sort of impact *grin*). Yes, all the great discussion condensed- I think we can only safely measure observable behavior and whether the stimulus seems then to be aversive or attractive, but we can't assume we know the emotional motivation behind it. First, we can't ask the animal. Second, we can't always believe what we are told if we *can* ask. And on the flip side, not all avoidance behavior is going to be due to fear (or vice versa). And you may not always see behavior indicative of "fear"- I for instance am phobic of falling, and going down escalators terrifies me- yet in a crowd, I challenge you to find other shoppers noticing my slight pause at the top of the escalator as being anything more than possibly caution of catching my heels.... Lani (always good for another anecdote to complicate the discussion!) Lyman-Henley ============================================================================== From: IN%"gboggs@atqm.advtech.uswest.com" "George Boggs" 28-DEC-1994 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: bears, country music, etc. Subject: Time: 13:53 OFFICE MEMO bears, country music, etc. Date: 12/28/94 I haven't introduced myself yet to the participants; I've just been lurking around surreptitiously reading the exchanges. I'm a psychologist (psychophysics and animal learning), and I just couldn't restrain myself when country music was being batted about. My personal observation is that black bears frequent the property my house sits on, and there is often loud country music playing on the stereo (until my spouse gets home, at least). Therefore, bears *must* like country music - Colorado bears, at least. To the remaining points: > Yes, all the great discussion condensed- I think we can only safely > measure observable behavior and whether the stimulus seems then to be > aversive or attractive [...] But we need to be sure that what we define as the stimulus is what the organism is responding to. For example, a bear might find poor quality sound reproduction aversive, regardless of the musical genre. Or, a given bear might find Dolly Parton aversive and Merle Haggard more to taste. It would be easy to mistakenly infer a fear of country music, when the true fear is of blonde wigs that has generalized to all Parton artifacts. > but we can't assume we know the emotional > motivation behind it. True. > First, we can't ask the animal. Second, we can't > always believe what we are told if we *can* ask. And, sometimes, the act of asking (or observing) modifies the state of the animal. > And on the flip side, > not all avoidance behavior is going to be due to fear (or vice versa). True. Avoidance behavior may be due to annoyance, etc. As for the vice versa, fear biting comes to mind. > And you may not always see behavior indicative of "fear" [...] Depends on your operational definition of fear and whether it falls within the scope and resolution of your observational situation or apparatus. Country music forever!! George Boggs, Ph.D. ============================================================================= From: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" 29-DEC-1994 16:02:50.04 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: fear and hormones From: OTTGW::IN%"mrenner@wcupa.edu" "Renner, Michael" 22- Subj: FW: fear and rushing bears >It seems as though arousal (sympathetic NS activation, with >involvment of the amygdala) "marks" an event as important enough >to remember, and this triggers OTHER brain events that >consolidate the memory into long term storage. Interesting. But the situation is complicated. Stressful events often lead to increased opioid activity as well as increased symapthetic NS activity. As far as I know, opioids tend to have amnesic effects. I wonder if novel stressful events tend to produce more sympathetic NS activity and less opioid responses than familiar stressful events. People often take mesures of sympathetic NS activity as a measure of `fear'. Many of the situations that lead to increased sympathetic activity are novel, and people therefore conclude that novel situations are frightening. However, perhaps the increased symapthetic activity in response to novelty doesnt reflect fear at all, but instead shows how much an animal's learning mechanisms are being activated (?). Jeff Rushen