From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 16-DEC-2004 13:34:43.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Info. needed I have heard that there is a man in Sweden doing DNA research in different breeds of dogs. He is also, researching DNA in coyotes. I would like to get in touch with him, but don't know his name. Anyone on this list know him? CeAnn ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From: IN%"sbremnerharrison@esrp.csustan.edu" "Sam Bremner-Harrison" 16-DEC-2004 14:05:06.46 To: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Info. needed Could you be a bit more specific into what type of DNA research he is doing e.g. systematics, population genetics, as this would help to narrow it down. best wishes, Sam Dr Samantha Bremner-Harrison Research Wildlife Biologist Endangered Species Recovery Program CSU Stanislaus P.O. Box 9622 Bakersfield CA 93389 Office: 661 835 7810 Cell: 661 549 8678 Email: sbremnerharrison@esrp.csustan.edu At 11:34 12/16/2004 -0800, Cecilia Lambert wrote: >I have heard that there is a man in Sweden doing DNA >research in different breeds of dogs. He is also, >researching DNA in coyotes. > >I would like to get in touch with him, but don't know >his name. Anyone on this list know him? >CeAnn > >===== >CeAnn Lambert >Indiana Coyote Rescue Center >www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. >http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 16-DEC-2004 14:18:36.00 To: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Info. needed Could it be: P. Savolainen? Savolainen, P., Zhang, Y., Luo, J., Lundeberg, J., & Leitner, T. (2002). Genetic evidence for an East Asian origin of domestic dogs. Science, 298, 1610-1613. Simon G. --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology / Neuroscience Dalhousie University Ethology, behavioural endocrinology & ecotoxicology. Behaviour of wolves, coyotes, red foxes, and teleost fish http://www.gadbois.org/ --- On 16-Dec-04, at 3:34 PM, Cecilia Lambert wrote: > I have heard that there is a man in Sweden doing DNA > research in different breeds of dogs. He is also, > researching DNA in coyotes. > > I would like to get in touch with him, but don't know > his name. Anyone on this list know him? > CeAnn > > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "Johanna =?UNKNOWN?Q?V=E4is=E4nen?=" 16-DEC-2004 15:53:54.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" Subj: RE: Info. needed Dear Cecilia, I know the guy. He is Peter Savolainen and his email is savo@biotech.kth.se Best Wishes, Johanna Väisänen _______________________________________________________ Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Linköping SE-581 83 Linköping Sweden Phone: +44-13-281243 Mobile: +358-440-172428 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se ________________________________________________________ From: IN%"jkoler@ccountry.com" "Janice Koler-Matznick" 16-DEC-2004 18:37:42.16 To: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" Subj: RE: Info. needed Hello. I did not know he was doing coyote but Dr. Peter Savolainen has done extensive mtDNA work on dogs, recently published in Science. His e-mail is: savo@biotech.kth.se I have assisted him in collecting samples from rare and aboriginal breeds for several years. Very nice person. Jan Janice Koler-Matznick, M.Sc., CPDT The Dog Advisor Behavior Service New Guinea Singing Dog Conservation Society IUCN Canid Specialist Group member Primitive and Aboriginal Dog Society 5265 Old Stage Road Central Point, OR 97502 USA Phone/Fax: 541-664-4023 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cecilia Lambert" To: <> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 11:34 AM Subject: Info. needed > I have heard that there is a man in Sweden doing DNA > research in different breeds of dogs. He is also, > researching DNA in coyotes. > > I would like to get in touch with him, but don't know > his name. Anyone on this list know him? > CeAnn > > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > > From: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "Johanna =?UNKNOWN?Q?V=E4is=E4nen?=" 16-DEC-2004 18:52:01.68 To: IN%"jkoler@ccountry.com" "Janice Koler-Matznick", IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" Subj: RE: Info. needed At 01:18 2004-12-17, Janice Koler-Matznick wrote: >Hello. I did not know he was doing coyote but Dr. Peter Savolainen has done >extensive mtDNA work on dogs, recently published in Science. His e-mail is: >savo@biotech.kth.se I have assisted him in collecting samples from rare and >aboriginal breeds for several years. Very nice person. Yes indeed! We are working under the same umbrella project on chicken genomics and I find him very professional and kind person! Johanna >Jan > >Janice Koler-Matznick, M.Sc., CPDT >The Dog Advisor Behavior Service >New Guinea Singing Dog Conservation Society >IUCN Canid Specialist Group member >Primitive and Aboriginal Dog Society >5265 Old Stage Road >Central Point, OR 97502 USA >Phone/Fax: 541-664-4023 >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Cecilia Lambert" >To: <> >Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 11:34 AM >Subject: Info. needed > > > > I have heard that there is a man in Sweden doing DNA > > research in different breeds of dogs. He is also, > > researching DNA in coyotes. > > > > I would like to get in touch with him, but don't know > > his name. Anyone on this list know him? > > CeAnn > > > > ===== > > CeAnn Lambert > > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > > > > _______________________________________________________ Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Linköping SE-581 83 Linköping Sweden Phone: +44-13-281243 Mobile: +358-440-172428 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se ________________________________________________________ From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 17-DEC-2004 02:26:59.41 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Canine Behaviour Type Index The world's first canine personality test is now available at www.petconnectgame.com From: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "Johanna =?UNKNOWN?Q?V=E4is=E4nen?=" 17-DEC-2004 02:49:22.49 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index But it costs! > >The world's first canine personality test is now available at >www.petconnectgame.com > _______________________________________________________ Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Linköping SE-581 83 Linköping Sweden Phone: +44-13-281243 Mobile: +358-440-172428 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se ________________________________________________________ From: IN%"dmills@lincoln.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" 17-DEC-2004 03:05:09.85 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index With the greatest respect, this is not "The world's first canine personality test " There are numerous tests which have been developed over the years on this. Daniel S. Mills BVSc PhD ILTM CBiol MIBiol MRCVS Professor & RCVS Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Behavioural Medicine Animal Behaviour, Cognition & Welfare Group University of Lincoln, Dept of Biological Sciences, Riseholme Park, Lincoln, U.K. LN2 2LG tel 44 (0)1522 895356 email dmills@lincoln.ac.uk web page: http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/dbs/staff/d-mills.htm _____ From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: 17 December 2004 08:26 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Canine Behaviour Type Index The world's first canine personality test is now available at www.petconnectgame.com From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 17-DEC-2004 03:19:43.74 To: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Johanna_V=E4is=E4nen'?=", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index I developed this expressly to help those people who phone me but can not afford to have me out to see their dog and write a tailor made plan for them. They can purchase professional advice "off the rack" for a tiny = cost, compared with what it cost to develop.=20 And it is the first of its type, inspired by the Myers Briggs = personality test for humans.=20 Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Johanna V=E4is=E4nen [mailto:johva@ifm.liu.se]=20 Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 6:47 PM To: Geiger Subject: Re: Canine Behaviour Type Index But it costs! At 09:26 2004-12-17, you wrote: =A0 =A0 The world=92s first canine personality test is now available at www.petconnectgame.com=20 =A0 _______________________________________________________ Johanna V=E4is=E4nen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Link=F6ping SE-581 83 Link=F6ping Sweden Phone: +44-13-281243 Mobile: +358-440-172428=20 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se=20 ________________________________________________________ From: IN%"clothier@telenet.net" "Suzanne Clothier" 17-DEC-2004 07:53:01.09 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index Interesting! What "research" on how many dogs (and of course their owners who are actually the ones reporting) defined these types? What is the reliability & predictability of these profiles? How was the reliability measured? And what behaviors were predictably associated with a given type? (For example, in a study of smokers vs. non-smokers, the M-B showed that some types were over-represented and some under-represented to a statistically significant degree, supporting the hypothesis that some personality traits played a key role in the decision to smoke or not.) What has been your follow-up with clients who used this test and the resultant profile to work with their dogs? Success rate? If this were reliable and predictable, it would be valuable to trainers, animal shelters, anyone attempting to assess a dog. However... How do you account for behavior as situational, and for behaviors which may never have been observed because the dog has never been in the situation that would prompt such behavior? Or, as is done with the Myers-Briggs detailed testing, how do you account for "splits" meaning, might score as one type or another but only weakly vs. having a very high score for that; for example, by M-B assessment, I'm an X, not an I or E but an X - almost no difference whatsoever in the score between the two traits for me. On the other hand, I'm much stronger in F than T, etc. Would not know that by taking the 70 question short form, but did learn that and more taking the complete test. Of course, with only 26 questions, you could not possibly illuminate such finer points, I suppose... Myers-Briggs has limitations, without question, not the least of which is the tendency for people to use any given personality type as an excuse for what they do or do not do, or for (often inaccurately!) judging others. I would have some concerns that in neatly pigeonholing a dog, owners may do the same for/with their dogs. Heck, they already do this in assigning useless labels such as "alpha" or "aggressive" or "hyper." More disturbing, I consider how notoriously inaccurate as observers dog owners can be - if this was self reporting by the dog, maybe it would be more accurate! :) The full M-B is far more extensive than 26 questions. I find it interesting that you feel a dog's behavior patterns can be accurately assessed with so few questions. Or, accurately assessed enough for owners to be given "off the rack" training advice? Finally, Jackie - I tried to order the test & handbook via your website so I could see this all for myself, but there was some server error, so couldn't - just FYI. Suzanne Clothier >I developed this expressly to help those people who phone me but can not >afford to have me out to see their dog and write a tailor made plan for >them. They can purchase professional advice "off the rack" for a tiny cost, >compared with what it cost to develop. >And it is the first of its type, inspired by the Myers Briggs personality >test for humans. >Jackie Perkins > >The world's first canine personality test is now available at >www.petconnectgame.com > From: IN%"pdezabu1@dancris.com" "pduezabou" 17-DEC-2004 09:22:18.19 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index How can I access bibliography of the research used to scale this test? I haven't worked in this area since about 1997 and would love to see where the literature has taken it. Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick (Duezabou) BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals & Public Policy), ABD From: IN%"fludzinski@thales.com" "Marek Fludzinski" 17-DEC-2004 11:03:00.43 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction of new list member Hello all. I recently joined the applied ethology discussion list and the welcome message encouraged me to introduce myself. My educational background is in physics (Ph.D. Theoretical Physics, Princeton) but in the past 15 years I have worked in finance. Am running a hedge fund I founded ten years ago. I split my time between New York City and a house in the country. A few years ago I started a family foundation that has contributed to a variety of 'animal-related' organizations such as Delta Society, Paws with a Cause, Canine Companions for Independence, etc. - many focusing on using dogs as either assistance dogs or therapy dogs. My interest in the human-animal bond is a deep one, something I am trying to understand - hence my interest in this list. I am a neophyte and eager to learn. I subscribe to the Journal of Animal Behaviour but find it a bit too specialized most of the time. On a personal note I have five children aged 6-18, three dogs (with plans for two more in the spring), three horses, two rabbits and a cat. I plan to acquire alpacas in the spring plus ...? I am also a budding science fiction writer and former hockey player (I notice the ".ca" in the list's address). I look forward to discussions on this list. Marek Fludzinski From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 17-DEC-2004 12:14:56.10 To: IN%"fludzinski@thales.com" "Marek Fludzinski", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction of new list member Hello, Marek My name is CeAnn and I run a small org. called Indiana Coyote Rescue Center. My interest is social behavior in wolves and coyotes. I don't have any formal education,but have worked with captive wolves and coyotes for almost twenty years. Welcome to the list. CeAnn --- Marek Fludzinski wrote: > Hello all. I recently joined the applied ethology > discussion list and > the welcome message encouraged me to introduce > myself. > > > > My educational background is in physics (Ph.D. > Theoretical Physics, > Princeton) but in the past 15 years I have worked in > finance. Am running > a hedge fund I founded ten years ago. I split my > time between New York > City and a house in the country. > > > > A few years ago I started a family foundation that > has contributed to a > variety of 'animal-related' organizations such as > Delta Society, Paws > with a Cause, Canine Companions for Independence, > etc. - many focusing > on using dogs as either assistance dogs or therapy > dogs. > > > > My interest in the human-animal bond is a deep one, > something I am > trying to understand - hence my interest in this > list. I am a neophyte > and eager to learn. I subscribe to the Journal of > Animal Behaviour but > find it a bit too specialized most of the time. > > > > On a personal note I have five children aged 6-18, > three dogs (with > plans for two more in the spring), three horses, two > rabbits and a cat. > I plan to acquire alpacas in the spring plus ...? I > am also a budding > science fiction writer and former hockey player (I > notice the ".ca" in > the list's address). > > > > I look forward to discussions on this list. > > > > Marek Fludzinski > > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 17-DEC-2004 16:57:28.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index Is this any more accurate or useful than thepersonality quizzes you come across in women's magazines? I would suspect not. All results of self administered quizzes are very dependent on how the responder views themselves. So this would be even more marked with dogs -- not only dog personality, but also owner personality. In addition to this, I have found that in my private consultingh with dogs with behaviour problems behaviours (which is, after all, how personalities are evaluated) are very flexible. Diet inteslt had an enormous bearing on a dog's behaviour. The environmenyt the dog is in also has an enormous bearing on its behaviour. I would think it is very very dangerous to base behavioural modification for problem dogs solely on such a questionaire. Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Geiger To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: Friday, 17 December 2004 7:26 PM Subject: Canine Behaviour Type Index The world's first canine personality test is now available at www.petconnectgame.com From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 17-DEC-2004 18:29:58.01 To: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index In a message dated 12/17/2004 3:00:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, jhaskins@tpg.com.au writes: Is this any more accurate or useful than thepersonality quizzes you come across in women's magazines? I may be wrong, but I assumed that this was posted for our amusement by Geiger. Did he actually expect us to take this seriously? From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 17-DEC-2004 18:40:34.73 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index In its current form, it is written for the general public. And yes, it = is very serious. If you do not intend to have an intelligent conversation, = then please refrain.=20 Jackie -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 10:26 AM To: jhaskins@tpg.com.au; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Canine Behaviour Type Index In a message dated 12/17/2004 3:00:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, jhaskins@tpg.com.au writes: Is this any more accurate or useful than thepersonality quizzes you come across in women's magazines? I may be wrong, but I assumed that this was posted=A0for our = amusement=A0by Geiger. Did he actually expect us to take this seriously? From: IN%"pdezabu1@dancris.com" "pduezabou" 18-DEC-2004 08:04:51.26 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index Thanks! I'll look forward to checking these references out. It never really fit with what I was doing, but--at the time--I was quite taken with this piece by human personality researchers: Cattell, R. B., & Korth, B. (1973). The isolation of temperament dimensions in dogs. Behavioral Biology, 9, 15-30. Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick (Duezabou) BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals & Public Policy), ABD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geiger" To: "'pduezabou'" ; "'Suzanne Clothier'" Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:51 PM Subject: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index > Thanks for your interest; I appreciate all the help I can get at this stage. > The "Gosling, Kwan, John, Oliver" is the most interesting reference. They > prefer using "The Big 5" personality dimensions used in human psychology, > though eliminate some of these. The literature seems to still be at the > level of debating if dogs rate as having personalities or not, I have > assumed they do. > Over a period of around 2 years, 3 of us have been working on this. Ken > Dagley has previously been involved with working with the Myers Briggs. We > chose canine personality dimensions that we thought had relevance to > managing dogs in a domestic setting. So far, 34 dogs have been typed for the > research. My goal is to type 50 dogs. The main correlation we were looking > for at this stage is that the owner was able to come up with the same type > that I privately did, from our questions. That makes me "dispensable" so > owners can take the test, come up with the profile I would have, and the > associated recommendations then apply. My management recommendations are not > new and come from current texts (in the bibliography) and current practice. > The relevant "warnings" are stated in the long profiles (called "Living with > your...type") such as that the test applies best to psychologically normal > mature dogs. The test may be taken by younger, abnormal dogs, but should be > repeated. > Obviously, more time, effort, research and number crunching is required. We > intend to employ a psychological statistician to help with this process and > have recorded the way each question fell for each research subject so each > question can be checked for validity etc. That way we can improve the > questions. There is much scope for ongoing research. I am interested in > typing the owners with the Myers Briggs, and their dogs with the CBTI. > I am more of a big picture person, so shall need to employ the skills of a > statistician perhaps to help with research design and analysis for this. It > is all limited by time and money of course. > My main concern is that the CBTI is very simple; but then again most dog > owners need things to be kept straight forward. > A paper has been offered to the 5th International Veterinary Behaviour > Conference being held in Minnesotta in July 2005. > Please keep the comments coming, I appreciate them, > Best regards, > Jackie Perkins > > Bibliography > > Dodman & Moon-Faneli 2004 Dominance Aggression www.petplace.netscape.com > article19243 > > Gosling, Kwan, John, Oliver 2003 A Dog's Got Personality: A Cross-Species > Comparative Approach to Personality Judgments in Dogs and Humans Journal of > Personality & Social Psychology. 2003 Dec Vol 85(6) 1161-1169 > > Kaminski, Call & Fisher 2004 Word Learning in a domestic Dog: Evidence for > "Fast Mapping" vol 304 Science > > Landsberg, Hunthausen, Ackerman 2003 Handbook of Behaviour Problems of the > Dog and Cat Saunders Philadelphia > > Lindsay 2000 Handbook of Applied Dog Behaviour and Training Iowa state press > Iowa > > Overall 1997 Clinical Behavioural Medicine for Small Animals Mosby Sydney > > Regan & Singer 1989 Animal Rights and Human Obligations 2nd edition Prentice > Hall New Jersey > > Weeks 2004 Dominance Aggression www.caninechronicle.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pduezabou [mailto:pdezabu1@dancris.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 1:25 AM > To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Canine Behaviour Type Index > > How can I access bibliography of the research used to scale this test? I > haven't worked in this area since about 1997 and would love to see where the > literature has taken it. > > Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick (Duezabou) > BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals & Public Policy), ABD From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" 18-DEC-2004 20:54:03.45 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: [Fwd: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index] Hello Jackie, We haven't spoken for a while. I am interested in your preposition that you can get enough information of any sort to give "off the rack" treatment of any sort without you having to do a full assessment. (whether this be in situ or in a clinic or both) Personally I would never give specific advice without a full assessment and especially not just purely on the assessment of the owner based on a few questions in a situation where I cannot see the person or see the interaction between them and the animal. We know owners assessments are often inaccurate for a number of subjective reasons. Some of which have been touched on by others here. This is why I while I might occasionally if I am very sure of things give some general advice over the phone and I will preface that with a caution but I would never give specific advice over the phone. And there you have much more control over the interview process than you will ever have in an internet situation. I have the same questions as Susane Clothier for the same reasons. Like her I would say if this can be shown to be accurate then it perhaps could have a lot of uses but....?? data please. Would you please give some response to these. If you don't want your work up for public critique then you have my e-mail address and privately will be fine. > > >I developed this expressly to help those people who phone me but can not > >afford to have me out to see their dog and write a tailor made plan for > >them. Your reasons for making this available I also find interesting. In my experience it is often these very people that haven't enough of a commitment to the animal to follow through with a plan. The "I can't afford it" syndrome is often (although not always but you can usually pick the genuine cases) the indicator of a lack of commitment to this animals welfare. A large part of the time they are looking for a cheap "quick fix/magic pill" without any or much effort, commitment or cost on their part. So expecting these people to follow through with a management system no matter how valid or otherwise without supervision would be I feel unrealistic and doomed to failure in most cases. Also how would you demonstrate the techniques you are perhaps advocating they use in these management plans without an interview. The difference as we all know between reading about a technique in literature, seeing it demonstrated and becoming proficient in it's practice is something else. Regards John L. New Zealand. P.S. A very enjoyable holiday season to all listers from us here. John L. From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 18-DEC-2004 22:40:33.73 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index Jackie, I went to the site. It is an advertisement to buy a product from which you will profit. It is kind of like spam. I find your sending me to such a site on a list like this to be distasteful. Sorry, Mark --- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk --- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx --- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm --- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu --- Home page: http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/mp --- Dog Training Site: http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 2:26 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Canine Behaviour Type Index The world's first canine personality test is now available at www.petconnectgame.com From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 20-DEC-2004 11:42:01.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RSPCA Does anyone of you know whether Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals was the first animal protection association? If not, which one was first? Regards, Anna Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 20-DEC-2004 14:47:37.63 To: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "'Plonsky, Mark'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index "It is kind of like spam." =20 When Wayne Hunthausen made his recent publication known to this list, = did you make this comment to him? If you work in a university, the public pay you. You live in a world protected from economic reality. I am in private practice.=20 This site alone cost 10's of thousands of dollars. Think about the programming that went into it.=20 I am writing articles to go onto the site which will explain quite a lot = and be free. Give me time. I am also writing it up for journal publication = and presentation at a conference, which again you must pay for, but not me. = The CBTI is being put onto CD for wider use by professionals at the coal = face in behaviour next year. We must pay the programmer to do this, should we distribute those CDs free? It would be nice to live in a world where everything was free, including food and housing. I still have to pay for mine.=20 The CBTI Handbook is going to the national (Australian)state = (Queensland) and parliamentary (Queensalnd)libraries this month so is accessable = publicly from there. You will probably have to pay interlibrary fees unless you = live locally.=20 I figured people on this list appreciate receiving things first. Was I wrong? Dr Jackie Perkins BA (psych, ethics) BVSchons, reg. psych. Nurse, Beh. Med. Cert. Veterinary Behaviourist GOOD DOG AUSTRALIA www.good-dog.com.au -----Original Message----- From: Plonsky, Mark [mailto:mplonsky@uwsp.edu]=20 Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 2:40 PM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index Jackie, I went to the site. It is an advertisement to buy=A0a product from which = you will profit.=A0 It is kind of like spam.=A0 I find your sending me to = such a site on a list like this to be distasteful. Sorry, Mark=20 --- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk --- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx --- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm --- Stevens Point, WI 54481 =A0 =A0 mplonsky@uwsp.edu --- Home page:=A0 http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/mp --- Dog Training Site: =A0http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog=20 =A0 -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]=20 Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 2:26 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Canine Behaviour Type Index=A0 The world=92s first canine personality test is now available at www.petconnectgame.com=20 =A0 From: IN%"jorighetti@optusnet.com.au" "Joanne Righetti" 20-DEC-2004 16:20:52.66 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "'Anna Olsson'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: RSPCA Hi Anna, I had to research this once for an article I was writing. To the best of my knowledge - "The first anti-cruelty law, the Animal Protection Act, was introduced in 1822 in Britain and outlawed cruelty to cattle, sheep and horses. It was followed two years later by the establishment of the Society for the Protection of Animals, the first animal welfare organisation in the world. This society later gained the title Royal after approval from Queen Victoria. The concern about animals and their welfare spread quickly and establishments to home surrendered and seized animals, in particular dogs, were built. Battersea Dog's Home was one of the first of these, opening its temporary establishment in 1860 and quickly becoming a London institution. Cats were also homed here in 1883. Societies for the protection of animals were forming in the States too. The San Francisco SPCA began in 1868 and the Australian RSPCA was established in Melbourne in 1871." Hope this helps. Joanne Source Journal of Animal Welfare League, NSW, Australia Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviourist Sydney, Australia -----Original Message----- From: Anna Olsson [mailto:olsson@ibmc.up.pt] Sent: Tuesday, 21 December 2004 4:44 AM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: RSPCA Does anyone of you know whether Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals was the first animal protection association? If not, which one was first? Regards, Anna Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"rbogle@sonic.net" "Rick Bogle" 20-DEC-2004 18:31:57.66 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Distasteful spam When I actually ate the stuff, I never considered it distasteful. Here's something that I do find distasteful, if ironic: Someone posts a blurb that causes others to visit a website (germane to the list) that offers some services for sale. The web visitor claims, publicly, that they find the solicitation 'distasteful.' Upon a brief search, I discover that the distraught visitor with the high ideals is a member of his local university Animal Care and Use Committee. All well and good, but this sensitive soul's publication list is little more than a litany of the many ways that he has hurt rats during his career. It is distasteful to me that someone whose career is built on animals' learned helplessness, pain avoidance, and toxic substance injections is deemed an appropriate member of a committee intended to assure the humane use of animals. That really is distasteful. Rick Bogle Madison, WI > -----Original Message----- > From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] > Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 2:47 PM > To: 'Plonsky, Mark'; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index > > > "It is kind of like spam." > When Wayne Hunthausen made his recent publication known to this list, did > you make this comment to him? > If you work in a university, the public pay you. You live in a world > protected from economic reality. I am in private practice. > This site alone cost 10's of thousands of dollars. Think about the > programming that went into it. > I am writing articles to go onto the site which will explain > quite a lot and > be free. Give me time. I am also writing it up for journal publication and > presentation at a conference, which again you must pay for, but > not me. The > CBTI is being put onto CD for wider use by professionals at the > coal face in > behaviour next year. We must pay the programmer to do this, should we > distribute those CDs free? > It would be nice to live in a world where everything was free, including > food and housing. I still have to pay for mine. > The CBTI Handbook is going to the national (Australian)state (Queensland) > and parliamentary (Queensalnd)libraries this month so is > accessable publicly > from there. You will probably have to pay interlibrary fees > unless you live > locally. > I figured people on this list appreciate receiving things first. Was I > wrong? > > Dr Jackie Perkins > BA (psych, ethics) BVSchons, reg. psych. Nurse, Beh. Med. Cert. > Veterinary Behaviourist > GOOD DOG AUSTRALIA > www.good-dog.com.au > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Plonsky, Mark [mailto:mplonsky@uwsp.edu] > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 2:40 PM > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: RE: Canine Behaviour Type Index > > Jackie, > I went to the site. It is an advertisement to buy a product from which you > will profit.  It is kind of like spam.  I find your sending me to such a > site on a list like this to be distasteful. > Sorry, > Mark > --- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. > 715-346-3961 wk > --- Psychology Dept. > 715-346-2778 fx > --- University of Wisconsin > 715-344-0023 hm > --- Stevens Point, WI 54481     > mplonsky@uwsp.edu > --- Home page:  http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/mp > --- Dog Training Site:  http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog >   > -----Original Message----- > From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 2:26 AM > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Canine Behaviour Type Index  > > The world’s first canine personality test is now available at > www.petconnectgame.com >   > > > From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 20-DEC-2004 21:31:14.12 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: RSPCA Anna et al., While I was on sabbatical at the University of Illinois in 92-93, I did a bit of perusing through a few books on the library shelves. I recall that in "The Letters of Charles Darwin" (approximate title - I believe authored by Francis Darwin) that Darwin responded negatively to the request by one of the British anti-vivisection organizations of the time that he serve as their first chief officer. On this basis, I am not sure whether one of the antivivisection groups "officially" preceded the formation of the RSPCA or not - but they were close if not the first. Darwin wrote in his response about the necessity of animal research - and it is my impression that Darwin had a bit deeper understanding and appreciation of the importance of animal research to the contributions of knowledge than do individuals who submit to this listing and apparently seem to believe that animal learning research is nothing more than sadistic scientists getting their jollies off by torturing helpless rats. And the implication of this unnecessary and uncalled-for attack on a researcher seemed to include the ill-informed view that had there been no research then knowledge of such concepts as learned helplessness, etc. used in the wording of the attack would have somehow arisen spontaneously. It is ironic that the wording used in the sophomoric attack itself pointed out the importance and contributions made by researchers of animal learning. An interesting web site about some of the "myths of antivivisection" that includes a bit of history of the movement can be found at: http://www.simr.org.uk/pages/avmyths/index1.html Best regards and Merry Christmas to all, Ray Stricklin University of Maryland -----Original Message----- From: Anna Olsson [mailto:olsson@ibmc.up.pt] Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 12:44 PM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: RSPCA Does anyone of you know whether Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals was the first animal protection association? If not, which one was first? Regards, Anna Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 20-DEC-2004 21:50:25.33 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Distasteful spam Hi Rick, So you are a lurking, rabid, animal rights activist waiting to attack those who you think are evil. This list is getting better by the day. I find your attempt at an offensive response to be more noise on a list with a signal to noise ratio that is becoming so poor I wonder why I bother. As for my research and publication record, I sleep well at night. As just one example, my studies of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) in rats have played a role in the fact that alcoholic beverages in the USA now have a warning that discourages pregnant women from drinking. Thus, the minimal pain and suffering experienced by the rats in my studies has been of significant benefit to humankind. You may disagree with my views on these issues. In fact, I am sure you do. That is just too bad. I didn't subscribe to this list to debate animal rights. I am sure People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (http://www.peta.org) has pointers to some lists or forums for where you can engage in such debate. I subscribed to this list to discuss applications of the science of ethology, the branch of zoology that studies animal behavior with an emphasis on the technique of naturalistic observation. I have enjoyed this list for many years. My impression was that it is essentially an academic list that welcomes scientists, practitioners in the field, and the lay public. This is the reason that I found Jackie's spam distasteful. I guess I have been spoiled by academic lists in the USA where such spam is strongly discouraged by the administrators (as John B. described in a previous message). Such administrators would likely have deleted your message attacking me as well. Happy Holidays (if it is your time to celebrate them), Mark --- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk --- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx --- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm --- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu --- Home Page: http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/mp --- Dog Training Site: http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 20-DEC-2004 23:12:56.22 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Animal personalities Most canine behaviour practitioners do not ascribe the complexity to dogs to justify a personality, though I believe it is justifiable. I am sure a personality index could be created for many species of mammal. To study a species closely requires them to be a part of the family. You need to love animals enough to keep a couple in the lounge room. Or go live with them in their "lounge room" as other researchers have done. It is very gainful to closely scrutinize the behaviour of your chosen species. I have only recently noticed that my German Shepherd dips his nose slightly to me as I approach, which I would interpret as a deferential gesture (I have not noticed the Staffies do this). My German Shepherd also raises his hind leg exposing his inguinal region as the equivalent of rolling over for a tummy tickle, apparently because his body shape makes it difficult to roll onto his back. My Staffy rolls onto her back for a tummy tickle, because she is barrel shaped and it is easy. My staffy also points with her nose and gestures with her head to what it is she wants eg near the box containing dried treats; near her end of the couch when she wants up. Staffies are not bred to point. It is incredible what you can see if you watch closely. Humans are not particularly good at behaviourally observing other species. I find I have to work at it. Have a Verry Purry Xmas, And may your New Year be filled with walks! Jackie Perkins Ps I shall be away from Xmas eve through till around 07/01/05 From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 21-DEC-2004 04:58:53.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: RSPCA There was a short-lived animal-protection society in Liverpool which just beat the London SPCA to it. The RSPCA was founded in 1824 as the plain Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, so preceded the later anti-vivisection socities by some considerable time. ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 22-DEC-2004 03:53:31.98 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: RSPCA The full name of the Liverpool society was the "Society for the Suppression and Prevention of Wanton Cruelty to Animals" which doesn't exactly come trippingly off the tongue and perhaps explains why plain "SPCA" had superior survival value long-term. The SSPWCA was founded on 22nd October 1809. Source: Valiant Crusade - The History of the RSPCA, by Arthur W. Moss, published by Cassell in 1961. Moss seems to think the Liverpool society eventually morphed into a "sister" SPCA and then into the Liverpool branch of the RSPCA. ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"Canidresearch@aol.com" 22-DEC-2004 10:33:04.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: recent paper re big cats and space Recently there was an article published that found a correlation between decreased space and stereotypic behavior in some megavertibrates housed in zoos - does anyone happen to have that reference? Emily Weiss, Ph.D., CAAB EWC 2672 SW Indianola Benton, KS, 67017 (316) 778-1991 www.emilyweiss.com Providing Positive Humane Solutions From: IN%"wickens@ufaw.org.uk" 22-DEC-2004 11:14:06.36 To: IN%"Canidresearch@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: recent paper re big cats and space I think the reference you are referring to is: Clubb R and Mason GJ 2003. Captivity effects on wide-ranging carnivores. Nature 425: 473-74 This paper emerged out of Ros Clubb's work at Oxford for her PhD on 'The role of foraging niche, rearing conditions and current husbandry on the development of stereotypies in carnivores'. Regards Steve Stephen Wickens, PhD Development Officer Universities Federation for Animal Welfare The Old School, Brewhouse Hill, Wheathampstead, Herts AL4 8AN, UK Email: wickens@ufaw.org.uk Direct tel/fax: +(0)1276 500880 Office: +(0)1582 831818 (tel), 831414 (fax) UK Registered Charity Number: 207996 Science in the service of animal welfare -----Original Message----- From: Canidresearch@aol.com [mailto:Canidresearch@aol.com] Sent: 22 December 2004 16:30 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: recent paper re big cats and space Recently there was an article published that found a correlation between decreased space and stereotypic behavior in some megavertibrates housed in zoos - does anyone happen to have that reference? Emily Weiss, Ph.D., CAAB EWC 2672 SW Indianola Benton, KS, 67017 (316) 778-1991 www.emilyweiss.com Providing Positive Humane Solutions From: IN%"sbremnerharrison@esrp.csustan.edu" 26-DEC-2004 10:16:58.85 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Animal personalities Hi All, There is some excellent literature out there by Joan Stevenson-Hinde, Samuel Gosling, and a whole host of other people about ways of assessing personalities in animals. In particular, a lot of research has been done in zoo's over recent years (e.g. papers by Kathy Carlstead). I also think that a lot of the shy-bold research could be applied to more domestic animals, it would be interesting to apply some of the shy-bold tests that have been developed over recent years to dogs, then develop training programmes more tailored to personality types. Hope you all had a merry christmas and happy new year, Samantha -------------------------------- Dr Samantha Bremner-Harrison Research Wildlife Biologist Endangered Species Recovery Program Bakersfield CA 93389 Office: (661) 853 7810 Cell: (661) 549 8678 > Most canine behaviour practitioners do not ascribe the complexity to dogs > to > justify a personality, though I believe it is justifiable. I am sure a > personality index could be created for many species of mammal. To study a > species closely requires them to be a part of the family. You need to love > animals enough to keep a couple in the lounge room. Or go live with them > in > their "lounge room" as other researchers have done. > It is very gainful to closely scrutinize the behaviour of your chosen > species. I have only recently noticed that my German Shepherd dips his > nose > slightly to me as I approach, which I would interpret as a deferential > gesture (I have not noticed the Staffies do this). My German Shepherd also > raises his hind leg exposing his inguinal region as the equivalent of > rolling over for a tummy tickle, apparently because his body shape makes > it > difficult to roll onto his back. My Staffy rolls onto her back for a tummy > tickle, because she is barrel shaped and it is easy. > My staffy also points with her nose and gestures with her head to what it > is > she wants eg near the box containing dried treats; near her end of the > couch > when she wants up. Staffies are not bred to point. > It is incredible what you can see if you watch closely. Humans are not > particularly good at behaviourally observing other species. I find I have > to > work at it. > Have a Verry Purry Xmas, > And may your New Year be filled with walks! > Jackie Perkins > Ps I shall be away from Xmas eve through till around 07/01/05 > > > > > From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 26-DEC-2004 11:04:09.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: RE: Animal personalities Hi, On the Primate side, there is also quite a lot: Plutchik wrote, if I remember well, the EPI or Emotions Profile Index (Primate form). Don't forget Wilson and Coleman (the bold/shy fish literature). Also, everybody seems to forget Pavlov's original work. Pavlov was the first to describe 4 temperament types in dogs based on how easily they were to condition (by the way, for psychologists, psychobiologists, etc., Personality= temperament + character; temperament being the biological, genetically-based dimension of "personality"). The same taxonomy has been used for humans for centuries (the sanguine, choleric, melancholic and phlegmatic types of Hippocrates and Galen) and is found in modern incarnations (psychobiological theories) of human personality: Eysenck, Strelau, Kagan (for children) and many more. Simon Gadbois --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology / Neuroscience Dalhousie University Ethology, behavioural endocrinology & ecotoxicology. Behaviour of wolves, coyotes, red foxes, and teleost fish http://www.gadbois.org/ --- On 26-Dec-04, at 12:04 PM, Sam Bremner-Harrison wrote: > Hi All, > > There is some excellent literature out there by Joan Stevenson-Hinde, > Samuel Gosling, and a whole host of other people about ways of > assessing > personalities in animals. In particular, a lot of research has been > done > in zoo's over recent years (e.g. papers by Kathy Carlstead). I also > think > that a lot of the shy-bold research could be applied to more domestic > animals, it would be interesting to apply some of the shy-bold tests > that > have been developed over recent years to dogs, then develop training > programmes more tailored to personality types. > > Hope you all had a merry christmas and happy new year, > Samantha > > -------------------------------- > Dr Samantha Bremner-Harrison > Research Wildlife Biologist > Endangered Species Recovery Program > Bakersfield > CA 93389 > > Office: (661) 853 7810 > Cell: (661) 549 8678 > > > > > >> Most canine behaviour practitioners do not ascribe the complexity to >> dogs >> to >> justify a personality, though I believe it is justifiable. I am sure a >> personality index could be created for many species of mammal. To >> study a >> species closely requires them to be a part of the family. You need to >> love >> animals enough to keep a couple in the lounge room. Or go live with >> them >> in >> their "lounge room" as other researchers have done. >> It is very gainful to closely scrutinize the behaviour of your chosen >> species. I have only recently noticed that my German Shepherd dips his >> nose >> slightly to me as I approach, which I would interpret as a deferential >> gesture (I have not noticed the Staffies do this). My German Shepherd >> also >> raises his hind leg exposing his inguinal region as the equivalent of >> rolling over for a tummy tickle, apparently because his body shape >> makes >> it >> difficult to roll onto his back. My Staffy rolls onto her back for a >> tummy >> tickle, because she is barrel shaped and it is easy. >> My staffy also points with her nose and gestures with her head to >> what it >> is >> she wants eg near the box containing dried treats; near her end of the >> couch >> when she wants up. Staffies are not bred to point. >> It is incredible what you can see if you watch closely. Humans are not >> particularly good at behaviourally observing other species. I find I >> have >> to >> work at it. >> Have a Verry Purry Xmas, >> And may your New Year be filled with walks! >> Jackie Perkins >> Ps I shall be away from Xmas eve through till around 07/01/05 >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 29-DEC-2004 14:41:00.43 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? I thought I had read that horses and cattle kill or seriously injure more humans each year than dogs do but a quick websearch didn't turn up any good data. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where to find such statistics? regards Clare -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 29-DEC-2004 15:46:46.67 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? Thanks Suzanne! Yes, the recreational injuries are different. I am thinking of injuries from management and would like to compare them to dog ownership/management statistics. I suspect that although dogs are so highly integrated into day to day life and most owners spend far more time around them that ag workers are far more likely to be injured or killed by horses, cattle or hogs. I'll check the links. Thank you! Clare ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Clothier" To: "Clare Lewandowski" Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:26 PM Subject: Re: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? > You're probably going to have to separate recreational (usually > equestrian) from occupational related injuries. A sportsrider injury > isn't going to be classifed the same way a bull mauling a farmer will be. > The stats will probably be available in two different ways as a result as > well, I'm guessing. Ag data may or may not include recreational riders. > > Quick look came up with these - maybe they're helpful? > > http://www.acahs.med.usyd.edu.au/nfidc/publications.htm (requires > subscription but has plenty of resources) > > http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/pdf/rhsag.pdf > http://www.acahs.med.usyd.edu.au/nfidc/publications.htm > http://farmsafety.ucdavis.edu/UC-AboutUs.htm > > http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=248536 list of links that > might be helpful, though all equestrian > > Would be interesting to see what results you eventually find. > > best, > Suzanne Clothier -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 From: IN%"clothier@telenet.net" "Suzanne Clothier" 29-DEC-2004 15:52:20.18 To: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? Found this, which might help. As someone who lives with horses, bulls &=20 dogs, it surely was interesting. Suzanne Clothier Animal Related Workplace Fatalities 1 A total of 144 animal-related fatalities in the workplace were identified=20 from the U.S.Census for Fatal Occupational Injuries 1992-1994 database. 15%= =20 of the cases were related to transportation. Most of the 122=20 nontransportation-related fatalities occurred in farm workers. Study=20 findings included: =95 Most nontransportation animal-related fatalities were due to cattle.=20 Fifty-four of the 68 (78%) cattle-associated fatalities occurred in=20 farm-related occupations. Most deaths were due to attack or mauling,=20 ramming, goring, trampling, and pinning the victim against an object. It=20 was noted that while bulls account for only 2% of the cattle population in= =20 the U.S., they accounted for more than half of the fatalities. =95 Horses were the next animal most commonly associated with workplace=20 fatalities. Twenty-seven (63%) of the 43 horse-related fatalities occurred= =20 in farm related occupations. Almost half of the deaths were due to=20 intracranial trauma. =95 A farm animal caused one of the 13 other animal-related fatalities. A=20 charging hog knocked a gate onto the victim causing a fatal injury. Austin CC. Non-venomous animal-related fatalities in the United States workplace,=20 1992-1994. J Agromedicine 1998; 5(1):5-16. At 12:39 PM 12/29/2004 -0800, Clare Lewandowski wrote: >I thought I had read that horses and cattle kill or seriously injure more= =20 >humans each year than dogs do but a quick websearch didn't turn up any=20 >good data. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where to find such=20 >statistics? >regards >Clare > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 > From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 29-DEC-2004 16:48:45.32 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"clothier@telenet.net" "Suzanne Clothier" CC: Subj: RE: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? Ah! I think this is the information I had read earlier! Many thanks! I was talking to a friend who works at a horse and cattle breeding facility yesterday. While the stallions and bulls she works with doing AI collection are all basically well mannered, no one there ever for a moment relaxes vigilance around them. They are not to be treated like mares or geldings, cows or steers. And even those are treated with care as they can kill you by accident just as a truck without the parking brake set can roll and crush you. It would seem that by comparison dog ownership, grooming, vet care or training is much less likely to kill someone. Even with all the ignorant or unsuitable dog owners, dog fatalities were I think about 12 per year on average over 30 odd years? If the purpose of BSL or other animal control legislation is to protect human lives, perhaps horses and cattle should be banned. tongue in cheek grin! regards, Clare ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Clothier" To: "Clare Lewandowski" ; Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:47 PM Subject: Re: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? Found this, which might help. As someone who lives with horses, bulls & dogs, it surely was interesting. Suzanne Clothier Animal Related Workplace Fatalities 1 A total of 144 animal-related fatalities in the workplace were identified from the U.S.Census for Fatal Occupational Injuries 1992-1994 database. 15% of the cases were related to transportation. Most of the 122 nontransportation-related fatalities occurred in farm workers. Study findings included: . Most nontransportation animal-related fatalities were due to cattle. Fifty-four of the 68 (78%) cattle-associated fatalities occurred in farm-related occupations. Most deaths were due to attack or mauling, ramming, goring, trampling, and pinning the victim against an object. It was noted that while bulls account for only 2% of the cattle population in the U.S., they accounted for more than half of the fatalities. . Horses were the next animal most commonly associated with workplace fatalities. Twenty-seven (63%) of the 43 horse-related fatalities occurred in farm related occupations. Almost half of the deaths were due to intracranial trauma. . A farm animal caused one of the 13 other animal-related fatalities. A charging hog knocked a gate onto the victim causing a fatal injury. Austin CC. Non-venomous animal-related fatalities in the United States workplace, 1992-1994. J Agromedicine 1998; 5(1):5-16. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 29-DEC-2004 17:40:03.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? I have heard that step-fatherscause more deaths and hospitalised (hospitalisable??) injuries that dogs and other animals combined (don't remember where or where the stats can be found). But I always think of this when people talk of BSL and extra restrictions on the freedom of dogs. Ban all stepfathers I say!! Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clare Lewandowski" To: ; "Suzanne Clothier" Sent: Thursday, 30 December 2004 9:48 AM Subject: Re: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? > Ah! I think this is the information I had read earlier! Many thanks! > I was talking to a friend who works at a horse and cattle breeding facility > yesterday. While the stallions and bulls she works with doing AI collection > are all basically well mannered, no one there ever for a moment relaxes > vigilance around them. They are not to be treated like mares or geldings, > cows or steers. And even those are treated with care as they can kill you by > accident just as a truck without the parking brake set can roll and crush > you. > It would seem that by comparison dog ownership, grooming, vet care or > training is much less likely to kill someone. Even with all the ignorant or > unsuitable dog owners, dog fatalities were I think about 12 per year on > average over 30 odd years? > If the purpose of BSL or other animal control legislation is to protect > human lives, perhaps horses and cattle should be banned. tongue in cheek > grin! > regards, Clare > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Suzanne Clothier" > To: "Clare Lewandowski" ; > > Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:47 PM > Subject: Re: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? > > > Found this, which might help. As someone who lives with horses, bulls & > dogs, it surely was interesting. > > Suzanne Clothier > > Animal Related > Workplace Fatalities > 1 > A total of 144 animal-related fatalities in the workplace were identified > from the U.S.Census for Fatal Occupational Injuries 1992-1994 database. 15% > of the cases were related to transportation. Most of the 122 > nontransportation-related fatalities occurred in farm workers. Study > findings included: > . Most nontransportation animal-related fatalities were due to cattle. > Fifty-four of the 68 (78%) cattle-associated fatalities occurred in > farm-related occupations. Most deaths were due to attack or mauling, > ramming, goring, trampling, and pinning the victim against an object. It > was noted that while bulls account for only 2% of the cattle population in > the U.S., they accounted for more than half of the fatalities. > . Horses were the next animal most commonly associated with workplace > fatalities. Twenty-seven (63%) of the 43 horse-related fatalities occurred > in farm related occupations. Almost half of the deaths were due to > intracranial trauma. > . A farm animal caused one of the 13 other animal-related fatalities. A > charging hog knocked a gate onto the victim causing a fatal injury. > Austin > CC. > Non-venomous animal-related fatalities in the United States workplace, > 1992-1994. J Agromedicine 1998; 5(1):5-16. > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 > > From: IN%"wheep@slingshot.co.nz" "Andy Beck" 29-DEC-2004 18:02:44.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? "While the stallions and bulls she works with doing AI collection are all basically well mannered, no one there ever for a moment relaxes vigilance around them. They are not to be treated like mares or geldings, cows or steers." Given ethical management that allows for support of natural behaviours stallions are entirely safe to work around. However - keep stallions under conditions of solitary confinement and total social deprivation (a punishment normally reserved for our very worst and most dangerous criminals) it is hardly surprising that they become psychologically ill, develop impulse control difficulties and are therefore, at times, dangerous. These fatalities should rightfully be regarded as being induced by the barbarous treatment of those who place commercial gain above consideration of ethical treatment - are, in other words, self-inflicted. Just as driving a vehicle after tampering with the brakes would be. To then start comparing data with dogs - that are well-adapted to live in human groups, and the the majority of which are allowed to socialise with both human surrogate pack members and other dogs - is meaningless, redundant and - without any intent to insult - ignorant. Having worked on a daily basis, mostly single-handed, with numbers of stallions I can honestly say they are more predictable and reliable than geldings - and over a period of 15 years I have only received one bite - and that the result of my own rudeness. You will pardon me - but I think the false bad-press that stallions receive, and the perpetuation of the myth that stallions are homicidal maniacs forms a part of the 'self-fulfilling prophesy' that sees these animals consigned to such sterile environments - and needs challenging wherever and whenever. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland 0400 Aotearoa - New Zealand 64-9-4011944 http://www.barefootsaddles.co.nz http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.sports-horses.co.nz http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz -----Original Message----- From: Clare Lewandowski [mailto:clare@amerion.com] Sent: Thursday, 30 December 2004 11:48 a.m. To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca; Suzanne Clothier Subject: Re: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? Ah! I think this is the information I had read earlier! Many thanks! I was talking to a friend who works at a horse and cattle breeding facility yesterday. While the stallions and bulls she works with doing AI collection are all basically well mannered, no one there ever for a moment relaxes vigilance around them. They are not to be treated like mares or geldings, cows or steers. And even those are treated with care as they can kill you by accident just as a truck without the parking brake set can roll and crush you. It would seem that by comparison dog ownership, grooming, vet care or training is much less likely to kill someone. Even with all the ignorant or unsuitable dog owners, dog fatalities were I think about 12 per year on average over 30 odd years? If the purpose of BSL or other animal control legislation is to protect human lives, perhaps horses and cattle should be banned. tongue in cheek grin! regards, Clare ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Clothier" To: "Clare Lewandowski" ; Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:47 PM Subject: Re: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? Found this, which might help. As someone who lives with horses, bulls & dogs, it surely was interesting. Suzanne Clothier Animal Related Workplace Fatalities 1 A total of 144 animal-related fatalities in the workplace were identified from the U.S.Census for Fatal Occupational Injuries 1992-1994 database. 15% of the cases were related to transportation. Most of the 122 nontransportation-related fatalities occurred in farm workers. Study findings included: . Most nontransportation animal-related fatalities were due to cattle. Fifty-four of the 68 (78%) cattle-associated fatalities occurred in farm-related occupations. Most deaths were due to attack or mauling, ramming, goring, trampling, and pinning the victim against an object. It was noted that while bulls account for only 2% of the cattle population in the U.S., they accounted for more than half of the fatalities. . Horses were the next animal most commonly associated with workplace fatalities. Twenty-seven (63%) of the 43 horse-related fatalities occurred in farm related occupations. Almost half of the deaths were due to intracranial trauma. . A farm animal caused one of the 13 other animal-related fatalities. A charging hog knocked a gate onto the victim causing a fatal injury. Austin CC. Non-venomous animal-related fatalities in the United States workplace, 1992-1994. J Agromedicine 1998; 5(1):5-16. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 From: IN%"clothier@telenet.net" "Suzanne Clothier" 29-DEC-2004 18:45:19.11 To: IN%"wheep@slingshot.co.nz" "Andy Beck", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? >Given ethical management that allows for support of natural behaviours >stallions are entirely safe to work around. However - keep stallions under >conditions of solitary confinement and total social deprivation (a >punishment normally reserved for our very worst and most dangerous >criminals) it is hardly surprising that they become psychologically ill, >develop impulse control difficulties and are therefore, at times, dangerous. As are many species (regardless of their sex). However, as someone who has dealt with stallions (usually singlehandedly) and bulls, as well as cows, steers, mares & geldings of all ages, I think the comment that was made that vigilance is never relaxed does not mean that the stallions are "homicidal maniacs." They simply remain what they are: brilliant, fast, confident, and with a view of the world that is not always the view of the humans around them, even humane, thoughtful, aware humans who DO keep them under a management system that supports natural behaviors. A stallion or bull sees the world through an amazing mindset which I very much appreciate, though I also take care to be vigilant and respectful and aware, as I am with *ANY* animal. Few things I've experienced with animals will cultivate as much respect & vigilance as watching a bull casually toss an 800 pound bale of hay as if it were a pillow, or pick up an entire round pen and move it 15-20 feet when he was frustrated by our slow moving cattle sorting procedure. In both situations, the bull was very careful not to aim his actions towards us; we nonetheless remained duly impressed by what power and speed he had available at all times, ready in an instant. >These fatalities should rightfully be regarded as being induced by the >barbarous treatment of those who place commercial gain above consideration >of ethical treatment - are, in other words, self-inflicted. This is simply ludicrous. You have no idea what the details of those fatalities are - animals and people both make mistakes, get scared, do the wrong thing, and when the size differential is as considerable as it can be with large livestock, the punier human usually loses. Not because the animal intended to kill anyone, but because the "natural" behaviors which might be ritualized and non-damaging if directed at another animal of their species may prove fatal to a human. For example, in one report I looked at from the U of MN, the animal related fatalities from 1993-2002 included 5 deaths caused by horses - ages of the humans involved: 4, 5, 7, 10 and 76. Even the best horse in the world, if startled or kicking at a pesky fly, can kill a child if all are aligned in a tragic way in that moment. And if a management system that provides for and supports natural behaviors would solve all problems, that would be grand. I agree that a natural management helps prevent many if not most problems. But even under the best management, animals remain individuals who respond to their world on an individual, not statistical, basis. One bull we had was treated with nothing but kindness, lived a stress free life out in the pasture with cows and calves and plenty of freedom & space - in short, a management system that results in calm, happy cattle who are pleasant to work around. This bull, however, for reasons that we will never understand, demolished a sturdy gate, destroyed an entire chicken house (which we're quite sure hadn't aggravated him as it was always just sitting there when we looked at it; who knows what it did at night or when we weren't looking), and then gored one of my horses who thankfully survived. All on a quiet, sunny day where nothing had happened except the usual feeding/watering chores. We'll never know what set him off. But we still had him slaughtered the next morning. Interestingly, we also eventually culled his dam and his son for dangerous behavior. I think the leap from Claire's interesting query to a (wildly biased, unfounded) judgement that livestock fatalities are "self-inflicted" is hardly based on any facts, and seems quite unwarranted. It also appears to be an underlying premise that animals are perfect, and only humans can cause problems. But as Dr. Temple Grandin's work with cattle reveals, there is a wide range in temperaments (for lack of a better word) that results in animals responding differently to their world. And cutting edge work like Belgian veterinary behaviorist Dr. Rudy de Meester's MRI scans of dog brains reveal that far from being perfect, many animals (just like humans) come into the world with dysfunction (structural, biochemical, both, as well as that which is induced by humans & management systems, of course) that can create serious problems, regardless of how carefully, naturally, respectfully or lovingly that animal is handled. I understand your concerns that people often force animals into unnatural situations that then create some abnormal behaviors; hard pressed to see where that was even a component of Claire's question. >To then start comparing data with dogs ...snip... is meaningless, redundant >and - without any intent to insult - ignorant. Hey - don't beat around the bush - tell us what you really think! :) Good heavens... No one's jumped on the "homicidal" stallion bandwagon here, and I doubt, given the list's purpose - applied ethology - that anyone would be that careless in trying to understand any animal's behavior. What I interpreted Claire's question to mean was not a direct comparison, as I'm quite sure she's well aware that horses & cattle are not dogs; rather, just another way of looking at how we interact with animals and sometimes do so with injuries and fatalities. If you ask me, these numbers speak rather highly of the considerable restraint both livestock and dogs demonstrate in the face of human stupidity and ignorance. just my opinion, Suzanne Clothier From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 29-DEC-2004 18:58:29.73 To: IN%"wheep@slingshot.co.nz" "Andy Beck", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? At no point have I indicated that stallions are maniacs. I've ridden stallions that have had sensible handling, are exercised sufficiently, have turn out time in paddocks and were very well mannered. Ridden both in the arena and on extended cross country rides. And both those stallions when around a mare that was just starting to get fragrant, continued to be well mannered and responsive. But there was an indefinable extra charge to riding them. There was quite quickly a lot more horse under me than there had before the mare appeared. Had I attempted to ride either of these horses before I reached the level of proficiency the trainer deemed sufficient when I was permitted to work them, I would probably have been endangering myself and all other humans and horses around. This facility is extremely well managed with stallions having legally required fencing around good sized paddocks, are worked under saddle and on the ground both in the arena and on cattle. They are not confined to closed stalls and sensory or socially deprived. This is a working horse breeding facility, not a conformation only show barn. I've seen photos of the stallions at the Spanish Riding School of Vienna with stalls open and the stallions free to come and go. But is this the norm? Do you recommend that most horse owners keep geldings instead of stallions? Do you think most owners of geldings are capable of safely keeping stallions? Do you think fencing laws and insurances requirements are going to be modified so that stallions become as common as geldings? The reality is that the hormones do affect the reactivity of males. Notice I said reactivity, not aggression. I've seen male dogs that were very easily became over excited with daily events like feeding time, play and going for a walk, calm down significantly after being castrated. The situation and management were exactly the same, the hormones were different. How many zoos attempt to keep a bull elephant? and when is the bull most difficult to handle? when in musth. Your misinterpretation of my remarks indicates your own ignorance of the current N. American BSL problems. Sensationalist media stories distort events and prompt reactions from the public and government that are based on emotion, not on fact. The facts are for what ever reason is that for what ever reason horses and cattle kill more humans than dogs do. I do understand how normal management can trigger stallions to become dangerous. And also understand that those same horses become safer when gelded. I have a gelding that had been used for breeding by a very careful breeder. He was gelded because when he was turned out with the mares, he tried to breed a mare not in season and was injured by her. He was then turned out with the cattle and entertained himself by running the cattle around which took off market weight. Gelding him stopped both behaviors. He could be turned out with either herd. Andy, get real. Your work is showing that horses can be handled differently. And many/most? owners will not be able to duplicate the situation. It will not be practical. Both from logistics and skill. The natural horsemanship methods can work elegantly. If the trainer has the basic experience in horse behavior to do so safely. Quite a few people have been hurt attempting to use them without sufficient coaching. It is not the fault of the method but that novices are trying it without knowing how apply it correctly. Those who can not duplicate your work MUST do what is necessary for safety. regards, Clare. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Beck" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:02 PM Subject: RE: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? > "While the stallions and bulls she works with doing AI collection > are all basically well mannered, no one there ever for a moment relaxes > vigilance around them. They are not to be treated like mares or geldings, > cows or steers." > > Given ethical management that allows for support of natural behaviours > stallions are entirely safe to work around. However - keep stallions under > conditions of solitary confinement and total social deprivation (a > punishment normally reserved for our very worst and most dangerous > criminals) it is hardly surprising that they become psychologically ill, > develop impulse control difficulties and are therefore, at times, > dangerous. > > > These fatalities should rightfully be regarded as being induced by the > barbarous treatment of those who place commercial gain above consideration > of ethical treatment - are, in other words, self-inflicted. Just as > driving > a vehicle after tampering with the brakes would be. > > To then start comparing data with dogs - that are well-adapted to live in > human groups, and the the majority of which are allowed to socialise with > both human surrogate pack members and other dogs - is meaningless, > redundant > and - without any intent to insult - ignorant. > > Having worked on a daily basis, mostly single-handed, with numbers of > stallions I can honestly say they are more predictable and reliable than > geldings - and over a period of 15 years I have only received one bite - > and > that the result of my own rudeness. > > You will pardon me - but I think the false bad-press that stallions > receive, > and the perpetuation of the myth that stallions are homicidal maniacs > forms > a part of the 'self-fulfilling prophesy' that sees these animals consigned > to such sterile environments - and needs challenging wherever and > whenever. > > Regards > Andy Beck > > White Horse Equine Ethology Project > 433 Wharepunga Rd > RD3 Kaikohe > Northland 0400 > Aotearoa - New Zealand > 64-9-4011944 > http://www.barefootsaddles.co.nz > http://www.equine-behavior.com > http://www.sports-horses.co.nz > http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Clare Lewandowski [mailto:clare@amerion.com] > Sent: Thursday, 30 December 2004 11:48 a.m. > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca; Suzanne Clothier > Subject: Re: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? > > Ah! I think this is the information I had read earlier! Many thanks! > I was talking to a friend who works at a horse and cattle breeding > facility > yesterday. While the stallions and bulls she works with doing AI > collection > are all basically well mannered, no one there ever for a moment relaxes > vigilance around them. They are not to be treated like mares or geldings, > cows or steers. And even those are treated with care as they can kill you > by > > accident just as a truck without the parking brake set can roll and crush > you. > It would seem that by comparison dog ownership, grooming, vet care or > training is much less likely to kill someone. Even with all the ignorant > or > unsuitable dog owners, dog fatalities were I think about 12 per year on > average over 30 odd years? > If the purpose of BSL or other animal control legislation is to protect > human lives, perhaps horses and cattle should be banned. tongue in cheek > grin! > regards, Clare > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Suzanne Clothier" > To: "Clare Lewandowski" ; > > Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:47 PM > Subject: Re: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? > > > Found this, which might help. As someone who lives with horses, bulls & > dogs, it surely was interesting. > > Suzanne Clothier > > Animal Related > Workplace Fatalities > 1 > A total of 144 animal-related fatalities in the workplace were identified > from the U.S.Census for Fatal Occupational Injuries 1992-1994 database. > 15% > of the cases were related to transportation. Most of the 122 > nontransportation-related fatalities occurred in farm workers. Study > findings included: > . Most nontransportation animal-related fatalities were due to cattle. > Fifty-four of the 68 (78%) cattle-associated fatalities occurred in > farm-related occupations. Most deaths were due to attack or mauling, > ramming, goring, trampling, and pinning the victim against an object. It > was noted that while bulls account for only 2% of the cattle population in > the U.S., they accounted for more than half of the fatalities. > . Horses were the next animal most commonly associated with workplace > fatalities. Twenty-seven (63%) of the 43 horse-related fatalities occurred > in farm related occupations. Almost half of the deaths were due to > intracranial trauma. > . A farm animal caused one of the 13 other animal-related fatalities. A > charging hog knocked a gate onto the victim causing a fatal injury. > Austin > CC. > Non-venomous animal-related fatalities in the United States workplace, > 1992-1994. J Agromedicine 1998; 5(1):5-16. > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 From: IN%"wheep@slingshot.co.nz" "Andy Beck" 29-DEC-2004 19:09:57.28 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? Please read again - I did not mention "livestock", and specifically did not address bull behaviour (my limited experience of which is that they are dangerously unpredictable - perhaps due to my lack of knowledge) - my reply was solely to do with stallions within the context of stud operations - as per the quote. So to accuse me of making generalised comments regarding livestock is inaccurate. It was also my understanding that recreational injuries resulting from use of horses were excluded - hence the kicks you mention did not result from management. Nor did I suggest that animals are perfect. If you wish to attack what I did say please do feel free - however, an emotional and less than polite attack on what I did not say - nor imply - is entirely unjustified - opinionative or not. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland 0400 Aotearoa - New Zealand 64-9-4011944 http://www.barefootsaddles.co.nz http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.sports-horses.co.nz http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Clothier [mailto:clothier@telenet.net] Sent: Thursday, 30 December 2004 1:45 p.m. To: Andy Beck; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? >Given ethical management that allows for support of natural behaviours >stallions are entirely safe to work around. However - keep stallions under >conditions of solitary confinement and total social deprivation (a >punishment normally reserved for our very worst and most dangerous >criminals) it is hardly surprising that they become psychologically ill, >develop impulse control difficulties and are therefore, at times, dangerous. As are many species (regardless of their sex). However, as someone who has dealt with stallions (usually singlehandedly) and bulls, as well as cows, steers, mares & geldings of all ages, I think the comment that was made that vigilance is never relaxed does not mean that the stallions are "homicidal maniacs." They simply remain what they are: brilliant, fast, confident, and with a view of the world that is not always the view of the humans around them, even humane, thoughtful, aware humans who DO keep them under a management system that supports natural behaviors. A stallion or bull sees the world through an amazing mindset which I very much appreciate, though I also take care to be vigilant and respectful and aware, as I am with *ANY* animal. Few things I've experienced with animals will cultivate as much respect & vigilance as watching a bull casually toss an 800 pound bale of hay as if it were a pillow, or pick up an entire round pen and move it 15-20 feet when he was frustrated by our slow moving cattle sorting procedure. In both situations, the bull was very careful not to aim his actions towards us; we nonetheless remained duly impressed by what power and speed he had available at all times, ready in an instant. >These fatalities should rightfully be regarded as being induced by the >barbarous treatment of those who place commercial gain above consideration >of ethical treatment - are, in other words, self-inflicted. This is simply ludicrous. You have no idea what the details of those fatalities are - animals and people both make mistakes, get scared, do the wrong thing, and when the size differential is as considerable as it can be with large livestock, the punier human usually loses. Not because the animal intended to kill anyone, but because the "natural" behaviors which might be ritualized and non-damaging if directed at another animal of their species may prove fatal to a human. For example, in one report I looked at from the U of MN, the animal related fatalities from 1993-2002 included 5 deaths caused by horses - ages of the humans involved: 4, 5, 7, 10 and 76. Even the best horse in the world, if startled or kicking at a pesky fly, can kill a child if all are aligned in a tragic way in that moment. And if a management system that provides for and supports natural behaviors would solve all problems, that would be grand. I agree that a natural management helps prevent many if not most problems. But even under the best management, animals remain individuals who respond to their world on an individual, not statistical, basis. One bull we had was treated with nothing but kindness, lived a stress free life out in the pasture with cows and calves and plenty of freedom & space - in short, a management system that results in calm, happy cattle who are pleasant to work around. This bull, however, for reasons that we will never understand, demolished a sturdy gate, destroyed an entire chicken house (which we're quite sure hadn't aggravated him as it was always just sitting there when we looked at it; who knows what it did at night or when we weren't looking), and then gored one of my horses who thankfully survived. All on a quiet, sunny day where nothing had happened except the usual feeding/watering chores. We'll never know what set him off. But we still had him slaughtered the next morning. Interestingly, we also eventually culled his dam and his son for dangerous behavior. I think the leap from Claire's interesting query to a (wildly biased, unfounded) judgement that livestock fatalities are "self-inflicted" is hardly based on any facts, and seems quite unwarranted. It also appears to be an underlying premise that animals are perfect, and only humans can cause problems. But as Dr. Temple Grandin's work with cattle reveals, there is a wide range in temperaments (for lack of a better word) that results in animals responding differently to their world. And cutting edge work like Belgian veterinary behaviorist Dr. Rudy de Meester's MRI scans of dog brains reveal that far from being perfect, many animals (just like humans) come into the world with dysfunction (structural, biochemical, both, as well as that which is induced by humans & management systems, of course) that can create serious problems, regardless of how carefully, naturally, respectfully or lovingly that animal is handled. I understand your concerns that people often force animals into unnatural situations that then create some abnormal behaviors; hard pressed to see where that was even a component of Claire's question. >To then start comparing data with dogs ...snip... is meaningless, redundant >and - without any intent to insult - ignorant. Hey - don't beat around the bush - tell us what you really think! :) Good heavens... No one's jumped on the "homicidal" stallion bandwagon here, and I doubt, given the list's purpose - applied ethology - that anyone would be that careless in trying to understand any animal's behavior. What I interpreted Claire's question to mean was not a direct comparison, as I'm quite sure she's well aware that horses & cattle are not dogs; rather, just another way of looking at how we interact with animals and sometimes do so with injuries and fatalities. If you ask me, these numbers speak rather highly of the considerable restraint both livestock and dogs demonstrate in the face of human stupidity and ignorance. just my opinion, Suzanne Clothier From: IN%"wheep@slingshot.co.nz" "Andy Beck" 29-DEC-2004 22:30:51.66 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: FW: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? "This facility is extremely well managed with stallions having legally required fencing around good sized paddocks, are worked under saddle and on the ground both in the arena and on cattle. They are not confined to closed stalls and sensory or socially deprived. This is a working horse breeding facility, not a conformation only show barn." So are you saying that the stallions are kept together in social groups - either with other colts/stallions or with mares? If so it would be the first one I've heard of - and I would very happily apologise for my error. But if, as is standard practice, the stallions are kept alone then I would disagree that the facility is well managed - in an ethical sense. If Stallions kept alone are not socially deprived I would be interested to know the basis for such a contention. I made no reference to the use of stallions for riding - nor do I recommend that anyone keeps any horse for any purpose - gelding, mare or stallion. Nor am I concerned with N. American BSL problems, insurers, or why you choose to castrate. Nor are any of these side issues particularly relevant to the specific theme on which I was commenting. Equally I neither practice, nor subscribe to, what is euphemistically termed Natural Horsemanship - which I personally think has such a poor logical foundation that it is a seriously flawed and virtually useless concept. As I replied previously my comments were specific to the keeping of stallions at stud. I am totally happy for you to address or attack those comments in context - and equally happy to discuss further. Attacking what I did not say, or what you assume I was saying on the basis of something you erroneously believe me to be or to represent is another issue entirely. When attacked in this manner I often wonder what it is that provokes such a reactionary emotional response - and sometimes it seems that the basis might just be that old favourite - vested interest in defence of management traditions whose purpose is maximisation of profit and whose ethics are dubious - rather than an honest openness to how things could be better done. The horse 'industry' is full of such self-serving BS (not to be confused with BSL) - as it is with operators willing to argue that their methods are essential to safety. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland 0400 Aotearoa - New Zealand 64-9-4011944 http://www.barefootsaddles.co.nz http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.sports-horses.co.nz http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz I've seen photos of the stallions at the Spanish Riding School of Vienna with stalls open and the stallions free to come and go. But is this the norm? Do you recommend that most horse owners keep geldings instead of stallions? Do you think most owners of geldings are capable of safely keeping stallions? Do you think fencing laws and insurances requirements are going to be modified so that stallions become as common as geldings? The reality is that the hormones do affect the reactivity of males. Notice I said reactivity, not aggression. I've seen male dogs that were very easily became over excited with daily events like feeding time, play and going for a walk, calm down significantly after being castrated. The situation and management were exactly the same, the hormones were different. How many zoos attempt to keep a bull elephant? and when is the bull most difficult to handle? when in musth. Your misinterpretation of my remarks indicates your own ignorance of the current N. American BSL problems. Sensationalist media stories distort events and prompt reactions from the public and government that are based on emotion, not on fact. The facts are for what ever reason is that for what ever reason horses and cattle kill more humans than dogs do. I do understand how normal management can trigger stallions to become dangerous. And also understand that those same horses become safer when gelded. I have a gelding that had been used for breeding by a very careful breeder. He was gelded because when he was turned out with the mares, he tried to breed a mare not in season and was injured by her. He was then turned out with the cattle and entertained himself by running the cattle around which took off market weight. Gelding him stopped both behaviors. He could be turned out with either herd. Andy, get real. Your work is showing that horses can be handled differently. And many/most? owners will not be able to duplicate the situation. It will not be practical. Both from logistics and skill. The natural horsemanship methods can work elegantly. If the trainer has the basic experience in horse behavior to do so safely. Quite a few people have been hurt attempting to use them without sufficient coaching. It is not the fault of the method but that novices are trying it without knowing how apply it correctly. Those who can not duplicate your work MUST do what is necessary for safety. regards, Clare. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Beck" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:02 PM Subject: RE: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? > "While the stallions and bulls she works with doing AI collection > are all basically well mannered, no one there ever for a moment relaxes > vigilance around them. They are not to be treated like mares or geldings, > cows or steers." > > Given ethical management that allows for support of natural behaviours > stallions are entirely safe to work around. However - keep stallions under > conditions of solitary confinement and total social deprivation (a > punishment normally reserved for our very worst and most dangerous > criminals) it is hardly surprising that they become psychologically ill, > develop impulse control difficulties and are therefore, at times, > dangerous. > > > These fatalities should rightfully be regarded as being induced by the > barbarous treatment of those who place commercial gain above consideration > of ethical treatment - are, in other words, self-inflicted. Just as > driving > a vehicle after tampering with the brakes would be. > > To then start comparing data with dogs - that are well-adapted to live in > human groups, and the the majority of which are allowed to socialise with > both human surrogate pack members and other dogs - is meaningless, > redundant > and - without any intent to insult - ignorant. > > Having worked on a daily basis, mostly single-handed, with numbers of > stallions I can honestly say they are more predictable and reliable than > geldings - and over a period of 15 years I have only received one bite - > and > that the result of my own rudeness. > > You will pardon me - but I think the false bad-press that stallions > receive, > and the perpetuation of the myth that stallions are homicidal maniacs > forms > a part of the 'self-fulfilling prophesy' that sees these animals consigned > to such sterile environments - and needs challenging wherever and > whenever. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Clare Lewandowski [mailto:clare@amerion.com] > Sent: Thursday, 30 December 2004 11:48 a.m. > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca; Suzanne Clothier > Subject: Re: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? > > Ah! I think this is the information I had read earlier! Many thanks! > I was talking to a friend who works at a horse and cattle breeding > facility > yesterday. While the stallions and bulls she works with doing AI > collection > are all basically well mannered, no one there ever for a moment relaxes > vigilance around them. They are not to be treated like mares or geldings, > cows or steers. And even those are treated with care as they can kill you > by > > accident just as a truck without the parking brake set can roll and crush > you. > It would seem that by comparison dog ownership, grooming, vet care or > training is much less likely to kill someone. Even with all the ignorant > or > unsuitable dog owners, dog fatalities were I think about 12 per year on > average over 30 odd years? > If the purpose of BSL or other animal control legislation is to protect > human lives, perhaps horses and cattle should be banned. tongue in cheek > grin! > regards, Clare > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Suzanne Clothier" > To: "Clare Lewandowski" ; > > Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:47 PM > Subject: Re: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? > > > Found this, which might help. As someone who lives with horses, bulls & > dogs, it surely was interesting. > > Suzanne Clothier > > Animal Related > Workplace Fatalities > 1 > A total of 144 animal-related fatalities in the workplace were identified > from the U.S.Census for Fatal Occupational Injuries 1992-1994 database. > 15% > of the cases were related to transportation. Most of the 122 > nontransportation-related fatalities occurred in farm workers. Study > findings included: > . Most nontransportation animal-related fatalities were due to cattle. > Fifty-four of the 68 (78%) cattle-associated fatalities occurred in > farm-related occupations. Most deaths were due to attack or mauling, > ramming, goring, trampling, and pinning the victim against an object. It > was noted that while bulls account for only 2% of the cattle population in > the U.S., they accounted for more than half of the fatalities. > . Horses were the next animal most commonly associated with workplace > fatalities. Twenty-seven (63%) of the 43 horse-related fatalities occurred > in farm related occupations. Almost half of the deaths were due to > intracranial trauma. > . A farm animal caused one of the 13 other animal-related fatalities. A > charging hog knocked a gate onto the victim causing a fatal injury. > Austin > CC. > Non-venomous animal-related fatalities in the United States workplace, > 1992-1994. J Agromedicine 1998; 5(1):5-16. > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 From: IN%"jcmhellenthal@chello.nl" "=?iso-8859-1?B?Sm9z6SBIZWxsZW50aGFs?=" 30-DEC-2004 02:38:10.06 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: =?iso-8859-1?B?SW50cm9kdWN0aW9uIEpvc+kgSGVsbGVudGhhbA==?= I subscribed to this list recently and therefore I would like to introduce myself. My name is José Hellenthal (female, 44 years old), I live in the Netherlands and I am a certified dog behaviourist in the Netherlands. I have just started a course in Applied Animal Behaviour at Southampton University (UK). The reason for taking this course is to further educate myself in this fascinating subject. I hope to learn as much as possible from the discussions on this list. regards, José Hellenthal Ermelo, the Netherlands -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 28-12-2004 From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 30-DEC-2004 10:06:49.81 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? An interesting bit of human-animal trivia ... According to stats that Ron Kilgour used some 15 or so years ago (and possibly are included in his book), sheep are by far responsible for the greatest number of animal-related farm injuries to humans in New Zealand. And the number one injury is to the back - due to improper lifting of the animal. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland -----Original Message----- From: Clare Lewandowski [mailto:clare@amerion.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 3:39 PM To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: human injuries/deaths from livestock stats? I thought I had read that horses and cattle kill or seriously injure more humans each year than dogs do but a quick websearch didn't turn up any good data. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where to find such statistics? regards Clare -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 From: IN%"jkoler@ccountry.com" "Janice Koler-Matznick" 31-DEC-2004 13:41:04.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: singleton pups Hi. I have lost the message in the maw of this machine, but I think it was on this list that someone was talking about how they used props/stuffed toys to help singleton pups learn "dog" behaviors. I too had to raise several singeton pups and so wrote a book a few years ago on hand raising puppes. It included a chapter on props and illustrations of how to use them (kinda hokey but best I could manage ), so the average dog owner could at least get some idea that something has to be done...Also recommended if at all possible to foster a singleton pup on another bitch. TFH never promoted the book, which I think should be on the shelf next to the Esbilac and Just Born. I donated several copies to our local library so the public in need of advice could find it. The Guide to Handraising Puppies Janice Koler-Matznick (the book does not have a date!! but it was published about 1998 or so...) TFH Publications 64pp. This is just FYI and NOT a promo for my book as I get no royalties . Jan Janice Koler-Matznick, M.S., CPDT The Dog Advisor Behavior Service From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 31-DEC-2004 20:43:32.43 To: IN%"jkoler@ccountry.com" "Janice Koler-Matznick", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: RE: singleton pups Janice- We should not feel abused or irritated when an author calls attention to her publication- There are so many out there, that it is virtually impossible to keep up with the list- It is especially good when an author has been abused by a publisher by incompetent marketing of a book, which has become an all-too-frequent, shameful situation- If a publisher does not intend to promote a title, it is unethical for it to take on a title- Authors should not sign a contract with a publisher without having an actionable clause in it requiring a publisher to either promote to some certain standard or relinquish rights to publish a work and return them to the author- -Stanley Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janice Koler-Matznick" To: "Applied Ethology List" Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 1:23 PM Subject: singleton pups > Hi. I have lost the message in the maw of this machine, but I think it was > on this list that someone was talking about how they used props/stuffed toys > to help singleton pups learn "dog" behaviors. I too had to raise several > singeton pups and so wrote a book a few years ago on hand raising puppes. > It included a chapter on props and illustrations of how to use them (kinda > hokey but best I could manage ), so the average dog owner could at least > get some idea that something has to be done...Also recommended if at all > possible to foster a singleton pup on another bitch. TFH never promoted the > book, which I think should be on the shelf next to the Esbilac and Just > Born. I donated several copies to our local library so the public in need > of advice could find it. > > The Guide to Handraising Puppies > Janice Koler-Matznick > (the book does not have a date!! but it was published about 1998 or so...) > TFH Publications > 64pp. > > This is just FYI and NOT a promo for my book as I get no royalties . > > Jan > > Janice Koler-Matznick, M.S., CPDT > The Dog Advisor Behavior Service > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----