From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 15-DEC-1999 14:33:26.71 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"Hans.P.Kjaestad@veths.no" CC: Subj: RE: Castration of piglets >>> 12/15/99 05:57AM >>> The unsuspecting viewers were, as usual, shocked to witness normal animal production practices. Hmmm. So what might that say about normal animal production practices? Paul=20 From: IN%"smillman@hsus.org" "Suzanne Millman" 15-DEC-1999 16:00:47.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: nose rings-ostriches and pigs. Hello all, I would be grateful for information about these two, perhaps related, = management practices. First, I recently had someone asking me for information about nose rings = used in the ostrich industry. I am assuming that the rings are placed = through the septum of the beak, similar to Nozbonz used in the broiler = breeder industry. I have never heard of these being used in ostriches, = and I am not clear what the purpose would be (restraint, perhaps?). If = anyone has experience with this practice I would be interested to hear = about it. I would be even more grateful for any research findings, but I = suspect there are few applied ethologists working with ostriches. I = would assume the welfare implications would be chronic pain, (similar to = the beak-trimming issues with chickens), and possibly effects on forgaing = and preening ability. I was also recently asked about effects of nasal rings applied to pigs = that are housed outdoors so as to prevent destruction of pastures. Are = there alternatives to this practice? Does anyone have experience with = "Humane Nose-rings" that are available. I remember that some work on this = was presented at ISAE-Prague by Ian Horrell, Phillippa A'Ness, and S. = Edwards, and that they found rooting to be a "behavioural need", relatively= unaffected by feed-restriction. I also believe that they found the pigs = to root in pasture, even if alternative rooting materials were available. = If any of these folks are still on applied-ethology I would be interested = to hear their thoughts, and any updates on that research. Cheers, Suzanne=20 Suzanne Millman, PhD, BSc (Agr) Director of Scientific Programs Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture Section Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) 2100 L Street NW Washington, DC, 20037 PHONE: 301-258-3114 FAX: 301-258-3078 EMAIL: smillman@hsus.org From: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed" 15-DEC-1999 16:04:51.48 To: IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: piglet castration I am interested in knowing why piglets are castrated routinely. Is it to make them more docile? Brenda Reed >From: Dale Arey >Reply-To: d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk >To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: piglet castration >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:40:05 +0000 > >Dear Hans >Piglet castration is very rare in the UK. The welfare codes recommend: >Castration {HYPERLINK \l "(4)"} is a mutilation and should be avoided >wherever possible. If it >cannot be avoided, it must be carried out in accordance with the law by a >veterinary surgeon or by a competent trained operator where a layman is >permitted to undertake the operation. > >Pigs are generally marketed at less than 100 kg and boar taint therefore >does not appear to be a problem. > >Dale > > >Dale Arey GIBiol PhD >SAC Animal Biology Division >Ferguson Building >Craibstone >Aberdeen AB21 9YA >UK >Tel: 01224 711058 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed" 15-DEC-1999 16:09:28.38 To: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A-E Hot Topic of C21 Hello, all, how do? I'd like to add the issue of genetic diversity in farm animals. Just as there is a movement to preserve the older varieties of fruit and vegetables that were developed by our ancestors and are now being allowed to disappear in the face of hybrid plants, there are attempts to preserve older farm animal breeds. It seems to me to be only wise to preserve what has been useful in the past. Brenda Reed >From: Mike Appleby >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Re: A-E Hot Topic of C21 >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:35:23 +0000 > >Jon et al > > > what will be the important A-E issues in the future? > >Here are two attempts at a response, both in a sense issues >arising from applied ethology rather AE as such; one relatively >specific and one extremely general. > >First, should we phase out certain categories of animals altogether, >or almost entirely? If we can manage without cows, or laboratory >mice, or pet alligators, or zoo elephants, should we stop keeping >them? This question is partly addressed to those, particularly >supporters of animal rights, who believe that what we do to such >animals - including killing them when they are no longer useful - is >unacceptable. And the question is loaded, because I believe the >answer is generally No: that while a cow's life is not as good as it >could be, it is still better for the cow to have lived than not. So I >think we should concentrate on giving animals better lives rather >than on stopping using them. Another version of the question, >then, is How do we develop a workable approach that takes into >account concerns about both animal rights and utilitarian >maximization of benefit (to both animals and humans)? And what >will that mean for animals? For example, should we move to >having fewer farm animals (and eating less meat) but keeping them >better? > >That leads on to the second issue: How do we integrate varied >concerns? The way we keep animals affects the environment, food >safety and quality, security of income for farmers (I really feel we >need to move towards a position where applied ethologists and >those concerned for animal welfare are fighting with farmers and >other 'animal users' rather than against them) and so on. How do >we sort out our priorities? I suppose this can be seen as The Big >Question: As we look forward over the next thousand years or so, >what should be our aims for the future of humanity? Or to focus it >a bit more, How do we begin to do applied ethology of humans? > >For those of you reading this early in the morning, I apologise. > >Happy Christmas, > >Mike > > > Here's one for all you Profs, students, researchers, vets, > > bunny-huggers etc. who think you can put a name to what's hot and > > what's not in applied ethology. > > > > I've seen a couple of tv specials on "the most influential people of > > the past millenium", or "the most significant events of the century". > > These are fun, but as we teeter on the edge of a new millenium (ok, so > > it doesn't actually start for another year;-) or maybe a global power > > outage, it seems like a good time to look forward as well as back. > > > > So my question is, what will be the important A-E issues in the > > future? Interpret the question any way you like; philosophically, > > technically, ethically. Think global, if you like. Or else on a more > > personal scale. What will be important to you, what would you like to > > see more of and why? > > > > Anyone want to comment on that? > > > > Cheers! > > > > Jon > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------- Jon Watts (___) ) > > ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ > > ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | > > ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | > > ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | > > ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| > > *& Saskatoon ------ || || > > %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || > > || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ > > wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------- > > > > > >Michael Appleby > >Dr M.C. Appleby >Director of Postgraduate Studies > in Agriculture & Resource Economics >Institute of Ecology and Resource Management >University of Edinburgh >West Mains Road >Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK >Tel. +44 131 535 4098 >Fax. +44 131 667 2601 >Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk > or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"rockydel@quiknet.com" "David C Anderson" 15-DEC-1999 16:27:45.28 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Quotation (Inquirer lost) Sometime ago, I think it was on this list, someone asked the source of the following quotation by M K Gandhi, "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." The Extended Circle : a Dictionary of Humane Thought, compiled by Jon Wynne-Tyson (Cardinal) lists this quotation as coming from The Moral Basis of Vegetarianism. If the person who asked the question could acknowledge this, I'd appreciate it. With regards, David David C Anderson Rockydell Resources 8732 Rock Springs Road Penryn, California 95663-9622 USA 916/663-3294 Publisher of Humans & Other Species Revised Mini-Resource on Pet Loss: http://bookzone.com/bookzone/indexed/10001366.html The Odes of Solomon in poetic paraphrase: http://bookzone.com./bookzone/indexed/10001430.html rockydel@quiknet.com From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 16-DEC-1999 21:41:36.11 To: IN%"Hans.P.Kjaestad@veths.no" "'Hans.P.Kjaestad@veths.no'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Castration of piglets Hans I'm not sure about Australia-wide, but certainly in Queensland = castration is not practiced. This was something the industry decided not to do - it = was not imposed upon them. They just wernt ahead and did it and the = consumers didn't know any difference. There are evidently no problems with boar taint, otherwise the industry would have quickly gone back to = castration. Carol Petherick > -----Original Message----- > From: Hans.P.Kjaestad@veths.no [SMTP:Hans.P.Kjaestad@veths.no] > Sent: Wednesday, 15 December 1999 20:58 > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Castration of piglets >=20 > Dear All, >=20 > A Norwegian TV station recently created a stir with a programme about > castration of piglets. The unsuspecting viewers were, as usual, = shocked to > witness normal animal production practices. >=20 > My question for you: What countries have forbidden this practice, and = what > has been the consumer response concerning meat quality (odour = problems)? >=20 > Hans Petter Kj=E6stad > The Norwegian School of Veterinary Science >=20 > hans.p.kjaestad@veths.no >=20 From: IN%"rsilva@cnpsa.embrapa.br" "Roberto Aguilar Machado Santos Silva" 17-DEC-1999 08:47:22.66 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Pig Behavior/Deep litter/Outdoor Dear Colleagues, I would like to receive suggestions for a study on behavior of pigs under deep litter keeping systems and sows under outdoor production.system . Sincerely, Roberto Aguilar M. S. Silva EMBRAPA/ Swine and Poultry National Research Center BR 153, km 110 Vila Tamandua, CEP:89700-000 Concordia, SC Brazil From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" 17-DEC-1999 12:12:32.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology (E-mail)" CC: IN%"chc9@psu.edu" "Carol Crouch (E-mail)", IN%"Feilong133@aol.com" "Jason Adler (E-mail)", IN%"jxf193@psu.edu" "Jhondra Funk-Keenan (E-mail)", IN%"mxb47@psu.edu" "Michelle Block (E-mail)" Subj: an annual tragedy all: i am disturbing the members of this list for what, i hope, will result in a concerted effort to stop the routine abuse of some of the gentler creatures on this earth. Each year these poor beasts are tethered, side by side, to a vehicle; and forced to drag an overwhelming number of large and heavy packages over incredibly large distances in an equally unreasonable short period of time. They are tagged with large bells to prevent their easy escape and driven by a rather obese gentleman cracking a whip and often seen carrying a dangerous-looking cane. Several years back they suffered the ultimate indignity of being given anthropomorphically stupid names and taunted in song. having labored for centuries in the dark of night, with no light to guide their dangerous journey, one poor creature was genetically engineered to provide a rhodamine-driven glow from his nasal cavity. Many kind children tried to feed these kindly animals on their journey with an occasional carrot, not realizing that only one carrot split among 9 animals only serves to increase the number and frequency of agonistic interactions. even worse, it makes them thirsty, when their only respite is during long, arduous trips over bodies of salt water. how long must these grand creatures suffer, only to serve the greed of humankind. we will no longer tolerate these uncivilized reindeer games. this year, santa, i'm watching you. : ) happy holidays, guy G. F. Barbato http://gfb.cas.psu.edu http://genetics.cas.psu.edu From: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed" 17-DEC-1999 14:14:16.37 To: IN%"smillman@hsus.org", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: nose rings-ostriches and pigs. Hello, Suzanne -- There are ostriches raised by farmers in my area and I have not seen one with a nose ring. The ostriches brought to be shown in a local petting zoo (of two day's duration) were friendly and allowed me, even though a stranger, to stroke them, feel for their wings in their feathers, and only gazed at me with disturbingly bright and clever eyes, as if they had judged me and found me wanting. I guess they will be mean if mistreated, like any other animal or person. Brenda Reed >From: Suzanne Millman >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: nose rings-ostriches and pigs. >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:00:36 -0500 > >Hello all, >I would be grateful for information about these two, perhaps related, >management practices. > >First, I recently had someone asking me for information about nose rings >used in the ostrich industry. I am assuming that the rings are placed >through the septum of the beak, similar to Nozbonz used in the broiler >breeder industry. I have never heard of these being used in ostriches, and >I am not clear what the purpose would be (restraint, perhaps?). If anyone >has experience with this practice I would be interested to hear about it. >I would be even more grateful for any research findings, but I suspect >there are few applied ethologists working with ostriches. I would assume >the welfare implications would be chronic pain, (similar to the >beak-trimming issues with chickens), and possibly effects on forgaing and >preening ability. > >I was also recently asked about effects of nasal rings applied to pigs that >are housed outdoors so as to prevent destruction of pastures. Are there >alternatives to this practice? Does anyone have experience with "Humane >Nose-rings" that are available. I remember that some work on this was >presented at ISAE-Prague by Ian Horrell, Phillippa A'Ness, and S. Edwards, >and that they found rooting to be a "behavioural need", relatively >unaffected by feed-restriction. I also believe that they found the pigs to >root in pasture, even if alternative rooting materials were available. If >any of these folks are still on applied-ethology I would be interested to >hear their thoughts, and any updates on that research. > >Cheers, >Suzanne > >Suzanne Millman, PhD, BSc (Agr) >Director of Scientific Programs >Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture Section >Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) >2100 L Street NW >Washington, DC, 20037 >PHONE: 301-258-3114 >FAX: 301-258-3078 >EMAIL: smillman@hsus.org > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"JNM@dmu.ac.uk" "Jeremy Marchant" 18-DEC-1999 06:08:25.35 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: AABS prices Dear All, Applied Animal Behaviour Science for ISAE Members. Elsevier will be taking over direct handling of all ISAE members = personal AABS subscriptions. This results is some changes in pricing for the = coming year.=20 The nominal price for all members =3D 180 dutch guilders =3D =A351.70 = or $83.50 on today's exchange rates (these are variable). However, some countries = have taxes imposed on this. These are listed below. If your country is not listed, presume that there is no additional price to pay and expect to = pay the equivalent of 180 dutch guliders in your own currency. VAT CHARGES Country VAT Total price payable Austria 10% =3D 1236.30 Schillings Belgium 6% =3D 3492.70 francs Denmark 25% =3D 759.4 Kroner France/Monaco 5.5% =3D 565.30 francs Germany 7% =3D 170.90 marks Greece 4% =3D 28035 drachma Ireland 21% =3D 77.80 punts Italy 4% =3D 164480 lira Netherlands 6% =3D 190.8 guilders Portugal/Madeira 5% =3D 17194 escudos Spain 4% =3D 14134 pesetas Sweden 25% =3D 877.8 kronas USA - Colorado and Washington DC states State tax Current subscribers will be contacted direct by Elsevier for renewal purposes. Those wishing to start new subscriptions will first have to contact me, giving their contact address, which will be passed onto Elsevier, once we have verified that you are a current ISAE member. Best wishes, Jeremy ---------------------------------------------------- Dr. Jeremy Marchant, ISAE Treasurer, School of Agriculture, De Montfort University, Caythorpe, Grantham, Lincs., NG32 3 EP, UK. +44 1400 275682 jnm@dmu.ac.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 20-DEC-1999 06:23:15.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: Gandhi 1959? Dear All There are some jobs that, once you start them, you think 'Why didn't I do this long ago?' There are others that make you wish you'd put it off for longer, maybe for good. I dropped in to the University Library this morning to track down Gandhi's quotation (The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated), which others have reported comes from something called The Moral Basis of Vegetarianism. Two hours later, I can report that he wrote nothing with that title. However, a bibliography on animal rights by Magel, lists such a book, dated 1959. It is not in our university library, so I can't give a page reference. As Gandhi died in 1948 I guess that it is a collection of his comments on vegetarianism. These were many: there are entries on the subject in most of the 98 volumes of his collected works. I checked many of them, but could not find the quote (and I also checked index entries for morality, progress, greatness, nations, vivisection etc). I can tell you, though, that the phrase - 'the moral basis of vegetarianism' - comes from a 1931 lecture to the London Vegetarian Society. So the best I can offer as a reference for the quotation is: Gandhi, MK 1959 The Moral Basis of Vegetarianism. Navajivan Publishing House, Ahmedabad. Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies in Agriculture & Resource Economics Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh West Mains Road Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" 20-DEC-1999 06:53:48.66 To: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca", IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" Subj: RE: Gandhi 1959? | Dear All | | There are some jobs that, once you start them, you think 'Why | didn't I do this long ago?' There are others that make you wish | you'd put it off for longer, maybe for good. | | I dropped in to the University Library this morning to track down | Gandhi's quotation (The greatness of a nation and its moral | progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated), which | others have reported comes from something called The Moral | Basis of Vegetarianism. Two hours later, I can report that he wrote | nothing with that title. However, a bibliography on animal rights by | Magel, lists such a book, dated 1959. It is not in our university | library, so I can't give a page reference. As Gandhi died in 1948 I | guess that it is a collection of his comments on vegetarianism. | These were many: there are entries on the subject in most of the | 98 volumes of his collected works. I checked many of them, but | could not find the quote (and I also checked index entries for | morality, progress, greatness, nations, vivisection etc). I can tell | you, though, that the phrase - 'the moral basis of vegetarianism' - | comes from a 1931 lecture to the London Vegetarian Society. | | So the best I can offer as a reference for the quotation is: | Gandhi, MK 1959 The Moral Basis of Vegetarianism. Navajivan | Publishing House, Ahmedabad. | | Mike | | | Michael Appleby | | Dr M.C. Appleby | Director of Postgraduate Studies | in Agriculture & Resource Economics | Institute of Ecology and Resource Management | University of Edinburgh | West Mains Road | Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK | Tel. +44 131 535 4098 | Fax. +44 131 667 2601 | Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk | or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk Very good that somebody checks such quotations. Thank you Dr. Appleby! But I am not quite clear about the situation now. Are the following statements true? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- A bibliography on animal rights by Magel, lists a book, dated 1959, with the title "The Moral Basis of Vegetarianism". This book was written by Gandhi. The book was published by the Navajivan Publishing House, Ahmedabad. There was a lecture given in 1931 to the London Vegetarian Society where the phrase - 'the moral basis of vegetarianism' was used. This lecture was given by Gandhi. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- If all this is correct, can anybody confirm that the famous quotation is really in that book? (Sorry if this was confirmed earlier and I missed it.) Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--¬_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 3011 (3006) ¬ ¬ ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 21-DEC-1999 08:47:25.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Gandhi 1959? Hans et al. > But I am not quite clear about the situation now. Are the following > statements true? > --- A bibliography on animal rights by Magel, lists a book, dated > 1959, with the title "The Moral Basis of Vegetarianism". True > This book was written by Gandhi. Not true. He had been dead for 11 years. It must be a collection of his writings by someone else. But as it is listed as Gandhi 1959 the editor was obviously self-effacing, and so it is correct to cite it as if Gandhi had written it. > The book was published by the Navajivan Publishing House, Ahmedabad. True > There was a lecture given in 1931 to the London Vegetarian Society > where the phrase - 'the moral basis of vegetarianism' was used. > This lecture was given by Gandhi. True > If all this is correct, can anybody confirm that the famous quotation > is really in that book? I believe so, but we don't have a page reference nor the original source. David Anderson has offered to do some more checking, so more information may be forthcoming. Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies in Agriculture & Resource Economics Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh West Mains Road Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James Brody" 21-DEC-1999 10:14:21.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Robin Walker Hello all: I may have missed earlier announcements; if so, I apologize for this duplication. Rob Walker, whom I met first on this list, had a stroke 6 weeks ago and i= s hospitalized. My information is that he is now blind but his wife takes i= n mail --- but not his email --- daily and reads it to him. His address is: Robin E. Walker, B. Vet. Med., M.R.C.V.S. 78 Bromyard Rd Worcester WR2 5DA, = UK He's taught with me at Cape Cod 2 summers ago; his political and social comments have brightened many moments for me and perhaps for many of you.= Please drop him a card or note! Many thanks. Jim Brody Clinical Sociobiology http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary From: IN%"Francien.deJonge@Users.ECO.WAU.NL" 21-DEC-1999 10:14:23.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: AABS prices Dear Jeremy, I would be interested in a subscription to AABS, cheers and a happy new millennium, Francien de Jonge department of organic agriculture and society Haarweg 333 6709RZ Wageningen The Netherlands tel: 0031(0)317484448 fax: 0031(0)317484995 e-mail: francien.deJonge@users.eco.wau.nl From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 21-DEC-1999 10:45:40.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Pet Behaviour 2000 Pet Behaviour 2000: The Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors are delighted to announce a series of seminars aimed at all those interested in pet behaviour. The events will take place in eight different areas of the UK and will cover topical and important subjects, many highlighted as being of special interest by previous APBC Symposium delegates. Go to: http://www.apbc.org.uk/summ.htm for details. Best wishes David Appleby dip CABC Practice representative for APBC ---------------------------------------- Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors PO BOX 46 Worcester WR8 9YS England Phone and fax:+44(0)1386 751151 E-mail:apbc@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.apbc.org.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"carla.cruz@mail.telepac.pt" "Carla Cruz" 21-DEC-1999 12:11:08.72 To: IN%"ETHOLOGY@SEGATE.SUNET.SE" "ETHOLOGY", IN%"animal-behaviour@mailbase.ac.uk" "ANIMAL-BEHAVIOUR", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Defining sampling duration Hi everyone in our team we have been analysing livestock guarding dog behaviour using, among other methods, instantaneous sampling. We have been doing the sampling for the duration of the grazing day. We feel, however, that this may be an excessive effort, and are considering decreasing the sampling time. We have data for the entire duration of the day, as well for each individual hour. Is there a way to compare them to find out which is the minimum amount of time required to sample without sacrificing the data collected, i.e. the minimum amount of time in which the data collected will not be significantly different from the data colected during the entire day? Thank you. Carla Cruz carla.cruz@mail.telepac.pt AOLIM: CarlaMCruz ICQ: 50099143 From: IN%"hanno.wuerbel@inw.agrl.ethz.ch" "Hanno Wuerbel" 21-DEC-1999 12:47:07.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: urgent request Message from ISAE West Central Europe: I was unable to contact the following persons using the e-mail adresses= indicated below. If you find yourself on the list or know the correct= e-mail address of anyone on the list, could you please get in contact with= me as soon as possible! Many thanks - Hanno W=FCrbel. Cornelia Exner: u8421ab@sunmail.liz.muenchen.de Martina Gerken: m.gerken@gwdg.de Hans Haussmann: haussmann@uni-hohenheim.de Petra Mertens: petra.mertens@erz.uni-muenchen.de Ch. Meyer: cmeyer5@uni.molgen.gwdg.de H-H. Sambraus: tizu@tz.agrar.tu-muenchen.de Gunther Marx: marx@mogli.ktf.fal.de Dirk Lebelt: dirk.lebelt@lrz.uni-muenchen.de ____________________________ Dr. Hanno Wuerbel Institute of Animal Sciences Physiology and Husbandry ETH Zurich Schorenstrasse 16/SLA B14 8603 Schwerzenbach phone: ++41.1.825.74.79 fax: ++41.1.825.04.76 hanno.wuerbel@inw.agrl.ethz.ch From: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed" 21-DEC-1999 17:24:59.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: How to enrich a pet cat's life -- good book Hello all -- This notice is for the researcher who was trying to tackle fabric sucking in a cat through enrichment of the animal's environment. I am reading "Felinestein: 100 Activities to Measure and Enhance your Cat's Intelligence" by Suzanne Delzio and Cindy Ribarich, D.V.M. Despite the stupid title, it has turned out to be a well reasoned and detailed book on how cats think and what they want in their home environment. I suppose the idea of a pun on "Einstein" was some marketing employee's brain storm. Too bad. The book was published by HarperPerennial, a division of HarperCollins/Publisher in New York, New York, U.S.A. I hope this helps. Sincerely, Brenda Reed ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"Herman@hpeet.demon.nl" "Herman Peet" 23-DEC-1999 04:50:43.71 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James Brody", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Robin Walker Hello All, Please forgive me, but I have to respond to this message, although it may be off topic for the list.... I learned from people who visited Robin in the hospital that he had a heart attack some weeks ago. There was no stroke, and he is definitely not blind. I think one should be aware that although Robin is making a slow recovery, he is not entirely out of the woods yet. It is such early days but fingers crossed and he will continue to improve. Best regards, Herman Peet ----- Original Message ----- From: James Brody To: Applied Ethology Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 1:11 PM Subject: Robin Walker Hello all: I may have missed earlier announcements; if so, I apologize for this duplication. Rob Walker, whom I met first on this list, had a stroke 6 weeks ago and is hospitalized. My information is that he is now blind but his wife takes in mail --- but not his email --- daily and reads it to him. His address is: Robin E. Walker, B. Vet. Med., M.R.C.V.S. 78 Bromyard Rd Worcester WR2 5DA, UK He's taught with me at Cape Cod 2 summers ago; his political and social comments have brightened many moments for me and perhaps for many of you. Please drop him a card or note! Many thanks. Jim Brody Clinical Sociobiology http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James Brody" 23-DEC-1999 07:10:12.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Robin Walker: Apology n a message dated 12/23/99 5:52:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, = Herman@hpeet.demon.nl writes: << Please forgive me, but I have to respond to this message, although it may = be off topic for the list.... = I learned from people who visited Robin in the hospital that he had a heart attack some weeks ago. There was no stroke, and he is definitely not blind. = >> This is wonderful news! I apologize to anyone whom I alarmed with early or incomplete information= . Jim Brody From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 24-DEC-1999 05:17:11.35 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: job announcement A position of "assistant" will be available from March 1 2000 on at the University of Ghent, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Breeding and Ethology, for the section "ethology". Profile Candidates should have one of the following degrees: Veterinarian, Bio-engineer in Agriculture, Zoologist, Psychologist, Medical doctor. They should have no Ph.D. yet. (i.e. Ph.D.'s cannot apply) I need somebody who is as quickly as possible operational. A person with knowledge and experience (such as B.Sc. thesis, M.Sc. thesis, training sessions, research, having chosen an ethological option during undergraduate studies, etc.) in ethology and in the observation of animals will have an advantage. Although ethological training is the predominant criterium, in case of equal merit, priority will be given to a veterinarian (advantage in case of prescriptions for behavioural clinical cases). As teaching and service to the community is included in the job, the knowledge of Dutch is required and will be an advantage in the selection. However, non-Dutch speaking persons with a good curriculum, who are prepared to learn quickly that language (the university runs a language lab), should not refrain from competing. Function 1. Scientific research on the behaviour of domestic, laboratory or zoo animals, with the aim of obtaining a Ph.D. degree. 2. Assistance with teaching of ethology and animal welfare in the department. 3. Assistance with community service (e.g. advice to ministries, consultations about behavioural problems in companion animals and horses in cooperation with the clinical departments). Duration and career possibilities 2 years, 3 times renewable. This means that if the person gives satisfaction, this job lasts for 6 years. One is expected to obtain a Ph.D. during that period. In that case, there are good chances to obtain the status of "doctor-assistant" (still a contract of AAP, "Assistant Academical Staff"). Depending from the ZAP ("Independent Academical Staff", in fact the "professors" with tenure) staff situation at given periods and the financial means of the university at that moment, a doctor-assistant can eventually obtain a fixed tenure as professor if her/his curriculum is satisfactory. Start salary is about 50-55.000 Belgian Franc/month. Procedure Candidates should send by registered mail their curriculum vitae with a copy of the degree(s) obtained and a list of their results per academical year, to the Personeelsdienst Universiteit Gent Sint-Pietersnieuwstraat 25 B-9000 Gent (Belgium) before January 10 2000! (1) This is an unfortunate period as many people will be away with holidays. I will only call now and then at the lab (where my emailbox is) between Xmas and New Year and hence will not be able to take phone calls. Those who wish to obtain further scientific informations should rather try to contact me through email or fax (cf. infra). (1) As an error has been detected in the announcement in the Official Journal of the Belgian State, it is likely that the corrected version which will be published early January will also contain an extension of the deadline. However, in the meanwhile, play it safe and react before 10/1. Prof.Dr.F.O.OEdberg Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: +32-(0)9-2647849 From: IN%"jjvandenbrink@hotmail.com" "jacqueline vandenbrink" 24-DEC-1999 10:00:57.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Pinheiro Machado Filho, Luiz Carlos please reply I think Luiz is member of this list...if not, could someone forward this to him. This was a message posted on Dairy L. There were several replies, however they were all to support removing the placenta before consumption. I know Luiz did some research to support placentophagia in dairy cattle at Guelph in 1996-97. I could read his thesis, but for this purpose a paragraph or two would suffice. A journal reference would be great as well. Thanks, Jackie VandenBrink jjvandenbrink@hotmail.com Reply-To: "Dairy Discussion List." To: DAIRY-L@UMDD.UMD.EDU Save Address Subject: vet: AFTERBIRTH Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 07:40:55 -0500 From: "Joel Stam" I've often wondered if there has ever been a study on the cow that eats afterbirth. I try to remove it as soon as it's let go,simply because that's the accepted norm, but often the cow has already eaten it. Over time I've done a little mental notetaking and have found that the one's that consumed the placenta were no worse off at all. This makes me wonder if there is a vital nutrient that we are not aware of and are denying them. Also it seems to be an inborn instinct which may suggest that it does have a place in the transition stage. Any studies done? Experiences? Opinions? Thanks, Joel R. Stam Herd Health Manager Cedarmere Farm Ltd. Chilliwack,British Columbia : joelstam@dowco.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 24-DEC-1999 10:13:20.37 To: IN%"jjvandenbrink@hotmail.com" "jacqueline vandenbrink", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Pinheiro Machado Filho, Luiz Carlos please reply At 11:00 AM 12/24/1999 -0500, jacqueline vandenbrink wrote: >I think Luiz is member of this list...if not, could someone forward this to >him. > >This was a message posted on Dairy L. There were several replies, however >they were all to support removing the placenta before consumption. I know >Luiz did some research to support placentophagia in dairy cattle at Guelph >in 1996-97. I could read his thesis, but for this purpose a paragraph or >two would suffice. A journal reference would be great as well. > >Thanks, >Jackie VandenBrink >jjvandenbrink@hotmail.com I know that in horses --- race horses, anyway --- the mare is not permitted to eat the placenta so that it can be checked to make sure that no part of it remains in the mare. I know that dogs always are permitted to eat it, the idea is that the bitch knows what she is doing by eating it. I should imagine that the eating is prompted more by an unwillingness to leave something that a predator could trace the young by, than by anything good in the placenta. Probably the same reason that the bitch eats the feces of the young. I know nothing of cows. This never stops me from commenting. (grin) Happy Winter Solstice, and the religious holiday of your choice, should you so choose. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, and animals, especially behavior --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 26-DEC-1999 12:50:44.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Riders attacked by dog pack I received a distressing message this morning. I have appended the substance of it below. I have some ideas, but this is a knowledgeable group, so I thought I would seek your advice as well. Thanks in advance, Mark ----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- ----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- ----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- ----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- ----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- Dog Training Site - http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm > Happy holiday greetings from . . . Turkey. > > . . . I own a 4 year-old Thoroughbred > stallion. I ride him almost every day and when the > weather is warm, I ride on a huge piece of land . . . > The farm is where a lot of people drop off unwanted dogs. > As I ride, I often see poodles or other pedigree dogs who > seem to have been abandoned. In addition to these > abandonees, there are old timers who have bred together > so that the population of dogs has grown up to 10 or more. > I have often seen these dogs in a distance but they have > rarely bothered me except to run towards me from far away > and bark. However, yesterday morning at 7:45 after leaving > the riding club which borders on the farm, my horse and I > were at a relaxed walk enjoying the morning silence when > from behind us came a pack of 5 dogs barking at us. The > largest one, the leader, appeared to be a rather old Kangal > that I have seen in the distance many times. The others > were medium sized and small and of indistinct breeding. In > the past, if dogs aggressively approached me and my horse I > would face them and shout which usually discouraged them > from coming closer. If they persisted in their behavior I > would charge them with my horse and they would run away. > None of these tactics worked with this group of 5 dogs. I > chose the leader to address and charge and he would keep his > eyes on me barking and turning in a circle while the other > smaller dogs would bark behind us. As time passed I noticed > that the smaller dogs were darting in closer and closer for > a nip at my horse's back legs and that's when I thought I > could outrun them. However, no matter how fast or where I > went, they chased us. I finally decided to turn around and > gallop back to the club. They never gave up their chase > and after I reached the club, they even flopped down on the > lawn to take a rest. I was amazed at the attack and warned > people to be careful when going hacking. However, not 2 > hours after I returned another rider was attacked and his > horse was severely bitten in the hock and pastern. That > rider said that this time there were 8 dogs that surprised > and surrounded him and if some people from the running path > had not come over, he surely would have fallen and perhaps > have been bitten too. > > Because I love all animals, even this pack of dogs, I am > interested in getting advice about what needs to be done > about this problem that seems to be increasing day by day. > Do we have to destroy these dogs? > Is there any way of deterring this behavior? > Did I do the right thing when I met them? From: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler" 26-DEC-1999 16:51:19.22 To: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Riders attacked by dog pack Option 1 Live trap, remove to shelters, identify those who are re-homeable, put down those too feral to re-hab. Option 2 Allow dogs to continue to run loose in the area. Have more horses attacked. Wait for a rider to be seriously injured or possibly killed before pursuing option 1. Meanwhile realize that this pack of canids is infinately more dangerous than running a pack of wolves on the farm. They have lost their fear of humans. I've had the unique opportunity to see what a dog can do to human flesh while working military working dogs. This a *serious* situation. As a Wildlife Biologist I have some concerns for the wildlife in this area as well. I've been working with dogs for 25+ years and can say that a pack of dogs is only as nice as the meanest dog in the pack. Though I am not a hunter, nor am I in favor of shooting of animals I know of no other way out of full-blown pack attack unless you are able to out-run or out-climb them. Last year we had a child killed by a pack of rottweilers in Milford Ks. just up the road from us. I have never viewed packs of dogs lightly. Immediate action is required where they occur. Were it me and my horse I'd be rattling some cages at the police department. Untill the dogs are removed I wouldn't be riding in the area. H.U.G. Your dog! Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 26-DEC-1999 17:35:45.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Riders attacked by dog pack ----- Original Message ----- From: Plonsky, Mark Sent: Sunday, December 26, 1999 10:50 AM > I received a distressing message this morning. I have appended the > substance of it below. /// > > Happy holiday greetings from . . . Turkey. > > > > . . . I own a 4 year-old Thoroughbred > > stallion. I ride him almost every day and when the > > weather is warm, I ride on a huge piece of land . . . > > The farm is where a lot of people drop off unwanted dogs. // > > Because I love all animals, even this pack of dogs, I am > > interested in getting advice about what needs to be done > > about this problem that seems to be increasing day by day. > > Do we have to destroy these dogs? > > Is there any way of deterring this behavior? > > Did I do the right thing when I met them? hello. i may be missing something but where is the owner of the land where the dogs live? seems to me their fencing needs some reinforcing, unless the riders are actually on not just adjacent to the dogs' farm. i don't ride but encounter from time to time riders at the beach where my hounds run; when i see horses, i hook up my hounds so they don't chase or risk a kick in the head. i can't believe that a rider on horseback charging at chasing dogs is the best option however. i should think the rider would have more control or management of his mount than that. margory From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 26-DEC-1999 19:23:02.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" CC: Subj: Wild dogs and horses First I got permission from Mark to repost. Then I told the lists I posted it to that I would be sending all responses to the A E list. Herewith an answer: >Hi Vivian and Merry Belated Christmas. >Have dealt with feral dogs around the farm while growing up. Usually shot >them as that is how it was done. However, My dad had great success using >light charges of dynamite commonly known as M80's. He would light and toss >them towards the leader and rarely had to repeat it. The dogs in your post >have lost their fear of man and that's serious stuff. They could also be >starving and the will cause even the shyest to become overly brave. Perhaps >the poster could arrange keeping a supply of food far away from the riding >club, so the dogs would have less need to hunt. That's risky as their fear of >man will be lessened and that makes survival less likely. Just a few quick >thoughts, gotta go. >George Cockrell Vivian Vivian Bregman & the Border Collies in Wayne, NJ Kelev Canine College, Inc. NADOI # 860 & APDT #1220P Founding Member International Association of Canine Professionals IACP info: http://www.dogpro.org * mailto:vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 27-DEC-1999 03:26:42.60 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'", IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" CC: Subj: RE: Riders attacked by dog pack Hi Mark I was involved in a similar case a couple of years ago. A number of abandoned/neglected domestic dogs formed a pack in a nearby sugar cane plantation and began attacking riders on horse back. As far as I can remember no actual damage was suffered by horse or rider although the stories were truly embelished. I suspect the dogs were hunting for food as they had first systematically depleted the area of small game. The local SPCA was called in but was unsuccessful in trapping or baiting the dogs so unfortunately due to rider pressure the poor dogs were shot 'humanely' I wonder. Hope this helps Glynne Andersson ---------- > From: Plonsky, Mark > To: Applied Ethology > Subject: Riders attacked by dog pack > Date: Sunday, December 26, 1999 8:50 PM > > I received a distressing message this morning. I have appended the > substance of it below. > > I have some ideas, but this is a knowledgeable group, so I thought I would > seek your advice as well. > > Thanks in advance, > Mark > > ----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- > ----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- > ----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- > ----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- > ----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- > Dog Training Site - http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm > > > > Happy holiday greetings from . . . Turkey. > > > > . . . I own a 4 year-old Thoroughbred > > stallion. I ride him almost every day and when the > > weather is warm, I ride on a huge piece of land . . . > > The farm is where a lot of people drop off unwanted dogs. > > As I ride, I often see poodles or other pedigree dogs who > > seem to have been abandoned. In addition to these > > abandonees, there are old timers who have bred together > > so that the population of dogs has grown up to 10 or more. > > I have often seen these dogs in a distance but they have > > rarely bothered me except to run towards me from far away > > and bark. However, yesterday morning at 7:45 after leaving > > the riding club which borders on the farm, my horse and I > > were at a relaxed walk enjoying the morning silence when > > from behind us came a pack of 5 dogs barking at us. The > > largest one, the leader, appeared to be a rather old Kangal > > that I have seen in the distance many times. The others > > were medium sized and small and of indistinct breeding. In > > the past, if dogs aggressively approached me and my horse I > > would face them and shout which usually discouraged them > > from coming closer. If they persisted in their behavior I > > would charge them with my horse and they would run away. > > None of these tactics worked with this group of 5 dogs. I > > chose the leader to address and charge and he would keep his > > eyes on me barking and turning in a circle while the other > > smaller dogs would bark behind us. As time passed I noticed > > that the smaller dogs were darting in closer and closer for > > a nip at my horse's back legs and that's when I thought I > > could outrun them. However, no matter how fast or where I > > went, they chased us. I finally decided to turn around and > > gallop back to the club. They never gave up their chase > > and after I reached the club, they even flopped down on the > > lawn to take a rest. I was amazed at the attack and warned > > people to be careful when going hacking. However, not 2 > > hours after I returned another rider was attacked and his > > horse was severely bitten in the hock and pastern. That > > rider said that this time there were 8 dogs that surprised > > and surrounded him and if some people from the running path > > had not come over, he surely would have fallen and perhaps > > have been bitten too. > > > > Because I love all animals, even this pack of dogs, I am > > interested in getting advice about what needs to be done > > about this problem that seems to be increasing day by day. > > Do we have to destroy these dogs? > > Is there any way of deterring this behavior? > > Did I do the right thing when I met them? From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 27-DEC-1999 09:16:56.03 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Riders attacked by dog pack Hi all, In the original post, the person said that another rider had been attacked by a pack of 8 dogs and that some runners had come by and "saved" him. What I am wondering about is that if the dogs are hungry, why are they only attacking people on horseback and why were these people able to come and "scare the dogs off" from attacking the man on horseback? Regards, Chantal Gaboury From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 27-DEC-1999 22:17:53.74 To: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Riders attacked by dog pack At 12:50 PM 12/26/99 -0600, you wrote: >I received a distressing message this morning. I have appended the >substance of it below. > >I have some ideas, but this is a knowledgeable group, so I thought I would >seek your advice as well. > >Thanks in advance, >Mark Hi Mark, Thanks for sharing this question. It is a potentially explosive situation and I hope that cooler heads will prevail, for the good of all (including the dogs). I have often heard the old country adage that "a dog pack is more dangerous than a wolf pack because it has lost its fear of humans". I think that one of the things that many of us on this list, especially those who work in the field of applied animal behavior, have to contend with is old country adages which are believed as though they are the gospel truth. I don't know if there is data to back up this aphorism or not. There are people and domestic livestock injured and killed by packs of dogs (including the 3 attack-trained Rottweilers who killed a boy in Kansas) and these always make our blood run cold. But there is an animal welfare issue here as well concerning these deserted dogs. I wonder about their condition is and how they are surviving. It should be noted that they are reportedly only chasing horses under saddle, not people per se. The second horse and rider reportedly assaulted by them was saved by a group of runners. While this is still a dangerous situation, with horses being injured and the potential for human injury from falling off a frightened horse, it doesn't sound like they are going after people as the Rottweilers in the Kansas case did. I would suggest that you start by making up a rule out list and try to identify more than one potential cause for these dogs' behavior. Here's a few things that I thought about while reading the description; I expect others can add to this list as well. Predatory behavior: Several things in the description don't fit this. For example, the dogs were barking at the horse and rider. Wolves, at any rate, are silent when they are hunting, does anyone know about dogs? Also, the dogs flopped down on the lawn at the riding club after chasing the rider, not a very predatory-like behavior. One question to ask would be whether these dogs are chasing horses when they are not being ridden? If they are exhibiting hunting behavior, what other animals in the area are they going after? If there are 10 deserted dogs on this farm, what are they eating? And if they have been here for more than a decade, why are they just becoming a problem now? Territorial behavior: When I was a kid living in Southern Idaho, I used to ride my horse out along the country roads (the only place we had to ride). I would ride around a section (a four mile square) and there was a cattle ranch that I always hated passing. There were 5 Queensland Blue Heelers at that ranch, used for working the cattle. They weren't confined and would lie around in the barnyard area, which lay next to the road. They apparently included the road in their territory and acted just like the dogs in your story. They would run out, surround me and the horse, nip at its heels (same as how they drive cattle). I would try various methods to dissuade them, charging them with the horse, circling to keep them away from her heels and running. Running was generally the best tactic for this particular group of dogs as they would stop chasing as soon as we got beyond the cattle pens. This apparently defined their boundary limits. Eventually my tactic became to sneak up until I got almost into their range, then urge my horse into a gallop so we were already going pretty fast when we came up to their range and blast on through until we were beyond their boundary. Since we had a head start, they rarely caught up to us this way. (Interestingly as I think about it now, with my teenager reasoning, I never just went up to the farm house and asked them to control their dogs so that they weren't a danger to me and my horse. If I had told my mother of my difficulties, she no doubt would have called them and done just that...). The difference between these dogs and the ones at the farm in my youth is that the farm dogs had a small, constrained territory that they defended. Once I was beyond it, I was out of trouble. Play behavior: Bark, nip, something runs, they chase. This is frequently seen with dogs when they kill livestock (fun for the dogs, not at all fun for the sheep). I have had both dogs and coyotes kill my sheep. The coyotes take only one animal at a time and consume what they kill. The dogs injure many at a time. One also needs to remember back to the work of Scott and Fuller that group chasing behavior emerges very early in puppy behavior. Something to support this interpretation was that the rider's behavior played right into this, first by chasing the dogs and then turning and running. If the dogs are exhibiting play chase behavior, then the rider's reaction, by first chasing them and then running would have encouraged them. A running animal is a pretty strong stimulus to chase for a dog. I am surprised that they are not also chasing human runners. I hope others will add to this list, however, from what I have here, my first idea is that this is territorial and play behavior, not predatory behavior and it is directed at horses being ridden. Without further information, my current recommendations would be: Short term solutions: 1) Identify these dogs' perceived territory and stay out of it. 2) Don't ride alone. With two horses, you can protect each other's horse's hindquarters. 3) If you encounter these dogs while riding, do not present a stimulus to chase. Don't chase them or let them chase your horse. This is only teaching them to run after horses. 4) Make the game (nipping horses then chasing them) less attractive. The firecracker idea given earlier might do the trick, but would not be my first choice if I am on a horse, unless I had a really mellow or well-trained horse. In fact, many of the things I can think of to scare off the dogs would have the unfortunate effect of being pretty disturbing to the horse as well. If the horse spooks, not only might the rider fall off, but the horse startling would be a chase stimulus for the dogs. Personally, I would try a large water squirter like a big water gun. Or since I am horseback, I might strap a one gallon garden sprayer filled with water to the saddle (like those used for garden pesticides). Once pressurized, you can squirt a lot of water quite a distance. You will need to condition the horses to this as well lest they spook at first squirt. You might also try mace or pepper spray in the dog's faces, if you can get canisters that spray a distance (these are available in the US for personal defense, but may not be legal in some other countries), although I don't know how the horses will react to this. Again, if riders are in pairs, you can more easily target the dogs biting the hind legs of the horses. 5) Enlist the aid of someone who owns a large, cantankerous mule. (Okay, this one is a bit of a joke--but in my area, there are mules kept for packing. They don't put up with any nonsense and they are mighty accurate kickers. Dogs rarely mess with them more than once ;-) ). 6) In my part of the country, where guns are common and patience and civilized behavior is not, it would not be long before any dogs threatening horses and riders like this would simply be shot. I am not advocating this as a solution, merely indicating that this is a likely outcome. Long term solution: As mentioned earlier, enlist a local animal welfare organization to help catch and re home (if possible) the dogs. Do this routinely so that the population on this farm doesn't build up. In addition, start a local campaign decrying the practice of dumping unwanted animals into the countryside. This is a continual problem, but there can be some benefits gained from public education. Please keep us posted with developments. I apologize for the length of this post; I got carried away with possibilities. Janice Willard MS, DVM Moscow, Idaho > >----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- >----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- >----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- >----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- >----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- >Dog Training Site - http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm > From: IN%"FourPawsTB@aol.com" 27-DEC-1999 22:57:34.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Riders attacked by dog pack In a message dated 12/27/99 11:30:17 PM, Janice Willard MS, DVM writes: >I have often heard the old country adage that "a dog pack is more dangerous >than a wolf pack because it has lost its fear of humans". I think that >one >of the things that many of us on this list, especially those who work in >the field of applied animal behavior, have to contend with is old country >adages which are believed as though they are the gospel truth. I don't >know if there is data to back up this aphorism or not. At Wolf Park in Battleground, Indiana, Dr. Erich Klinghammer has wolves who have "lost" there fear of humans through an extensive early socialization process. The down side of course is that many wolves direct wolflike behavior to the human caretakers. But as all workers are well trained and oriented to the program and its safety regulations, there have not been any serious problems. During the weekly wolf/bison interactions, the first stages of predation (stalk and chase) occur frequently. As the herd is healthy and in a large enclosure, predation goes no farther. The wolves are silent during the whole encounter, with the exception of an occasional hip if a wolf get too close to a bison. I guess the question would be do dogs vocalize during predation? I tend to agree that territorial/play behavior is what seems to be occurring. But as Erich has taught me, play is often rehearsal for predation. Extreme caution is advised! Just my views. Ken McCort Four Paws Animal Behavior Services Doylestown, OH USA From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 28-DEC-1999 01:06:03.63 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Riders attacked by dog pack Janice Willard wrote: I hope others will add to this list, however, from what I have here, my > first idea is that this is territorial and play behavior, not predatory > behavior and it is directed at horses being ridden. I have to agree with Janice on the motivations of the dogs' chasing behavior. My own experience with encountering dog packs has been in the urban setting where strays band together in run-down neighborhoods. These dogs seem to gain confidence as their numbers increase and also seem to delight in their chasing. Lots of bravado, lots of barking and tail wagging and 'one upping' among the dogs usually comes along with the chase. It is customary to pick up a big stick...or even to pretend to pick one up...in order to get the dogs to scatter. Perhaps the Turkish dogs (from the original post) feel chasing a skittish horse is a lot more fun than risking the stone throwing wrath of a walking human. Either way the dumped dogs are, as Janice pointed out, a sad welfare concern that is all too common in both urban and rural settings. The public concern for rabies alone should be enough of a reason to get the dogs trapped and evaluated. I doubt public education efforts will be enough to prevent other irresponsible owners from sending their dogs to the street (or the 'farm')...But that's a whole other issue, isn't it? Donna Reynolds Walking softly and carrying a big stick From: IN%"maslow@spin.net.au" "A. Eenink & K.M. Cornack" 28-DEC-1999 04:29:12.93 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dog pen design Hi everyone I am a veterinary ethologist who works for the RSPCA in Brisbane, Australia: a city of about 1 million persons. AT the refuge we are designing a new facilty and I wondered if anyone had any experience with designing dog pens in a refuge situation?. Local council bylaws stipulate the facility must be fully enclosed, i.e. not open air. We have a sub-tropical climate. I am interested in things about cage design relevant to social contact, air flow, noise, temperature, disease control etc. Some of the animals may be retained for weeks so the design would need to be appropriate for longer term accomodation as well. Any ideas or suggestions about source material would be greatly appreciated. Thanks and regards Kathy Cornack From: IN%"deethom@erols.com" "Dee Thompson" 28-DEC-1999 13:27:32.54 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Wild dogs and horses A pack of dogs can be a very dangerous animal group. It may be hunting for food, but they also pack and attack for the thrill of the hunt. Back in the 70's there was a pack of dogs that was attacking other animals and finally a child right in the ultra swank suburbs of Wash,DC in Bethesda, Md. These were dogs that went home and got well fed as family pets during at least part of the day but formed an entirely differenty entity when they were let out to roam and formed this pack. There were warnings about this pack for almost two weeks, but they seemed to disappear when animal control came around. The "pet" owners raised quite a cry of disbelief when these dogs were finally captured, but with a slashed up child as thier last prey, there was no denying thier danger. All were good pets at home and even had thier shots! Shame on the owners for letting them roam, but a strong caution to those of us that like to think our loving mutt could never become a danger...and it isn't always about food. Dee From: IN%"gretchen@stoddard.net" "Gretchen Stoddard" 29-DEC-1999 21:07:50.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: publishing coyote work Hi! My name is Gretchen Stoddard and Im a senior in highschool that has been doing a project on coyotes/wolves in an independent research course for 3 years. I recently finished my experiment and paper which i entered in the Intel competition. The next step in my course is to get my work published in scientific journals. Does anyone have any idea where I might start this search? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. --Gretchen-- From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 2-JAN-2000 01:02:49.66 To: IN%"deethom@erols.com" "Dee Thompson", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: Wild dogs and horses You say the dogs were well fed at home. Sometimes we humans assume things and then form opinions based on our values. I would be most interested to know what these dogs were being fed and whether they ate the food given to them. ---------- > From: Dee Thompson > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Wild dogs and horses > Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 9:29 PM > > > A pack of dogs can be a very dangerous animal group. It may be hunting for > food, but they also pack and attack for the thrill of the hunt. > Back in the 70's there was a pack of dogs that was attacking other animals > and finally a child right in the ultra swank suburbs of Wash,DC in > Bethesda, Md. These were dogs that went home and got well fed as family > pets during at least part of the day but formed an entirely differenty > entity when they were let out to roam and formed this pack. There were > warnings about this pack for almost two weeks, but they seemed to disappear > when animal control came around. The "pet" owners raised quite a cry of > disbelief when these dogs were finally captured, but with a slashed up > child as thier last prey, there was no denying thier danger. All were good > pets at home and even had thier shots! > > Shame on the owners for letting them roam, but a strong caution to those of > us that like to think our loving mutt could never become a danger...and it > isn't always about food. > Dee