From: IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" "Donald Broom" 2-FEB-2005 11:36:36.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: awareness of the future? citation on animal ethics) Dear Anna et al I have just seen your question and the discussion by Stan, Chris, Carol et al so I don't have to refer you to Duncan and Petherick 1991. Here are a few thoughts. 1. An important means of regulating life in many animals is to use feedforward control. This implies some degree of prediction of the future. I have written about this in several places, see for example pages 25-27 and 55 of Broom, D.M. and Johnson, K.G. 1993. Stress and Animal Welfare. Dordrecht: Kluwer. 2. Some discussions of awareness and of intentionality are relevant. See, for example: Dennett D.C. 1987. The Intentional Stance.MIT Press and my discussion of these issues in Chapter 3 (especially pp.90-98 and 111-112) of Broom, D.M. 2003. The Evolution of Morality and Religion. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. 3. Amongst a lot of other examples, work on caching food is interesting, e.g. Emery and Clayton 2001, Nature 414, 443-446. 4. In relation to a point in the discussion, it may be that pain and other problems are worse in animals with less cognitive ability, (Broom, D.M. 2001. Evolution of pain. In Pain: its nature and management in man and animals, ed. Soulsby, Lord and Morton, D. Roy. Soc. Med. Int. Cong. Symp. Ser., 246, 17-25.). Best wishes Don -- Professor Donald M. Broom Colleen Macleod Professor of Animal Welfare President Department of Veterinary Medicine St Catharine's College University of Cambridge Cambridge CB2 1RL CAMBRIDGE CB3 0ES U.K. U.K. Telephone 0044 (0)1223 337697 (0)1223 338344 Fax 0044 (0)1223 337610 e-mail dmb16@cam.ac.uk From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 2-FEB-2005 15:45:28.94 To: IN%"dmills@lincoln.ac.uk" "'Daniel Mills'" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: High quality papers "lost" for political reasons: censorship Dear Daniel, It did go on the official form downloaded from your link. Do not now tell me it is too late when you lost it. It was submitted right away, as soon as you posted the invitation for papers. I was waiting for that invitation. If it is indeed lost, I suspect it was deliberate, given the manner in which I have been treated by certain people who I shall not name herein. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Mills [mailto:dmills@lincoln.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 7:59 PM To: Geiger Subject: RE: abstract attached for conferences in July Minnesota I'm very sorry, but if it did not come on the official form, it did not get into the system. Submissions had to be on the form with a cover sheet to be considered (i.e as an attachment). When I received an e-mail from you with the correct form of attachment I asssumed this was what you had been trying to send before. So in short, I'm afraid your submission has not been accepted. Daniel S. Mills BVSc PhD ILTM CBiol MIBiol MRCVS Professor & RCVS Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Behavioural Medicine Animal Behaviour, Cognition & Welfare Group University of Lincoln, Dept of Biological Sciences, Riseholme Park, Lincoln, U.K. LN2 2LG tel 44 (0)1522 895356 email dmills@lincoln.ac.uk web page: http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/dbs/staff/d-mills.htm _____ From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: 01 February 2005 21:15 To: 'Daniel Mills' Subject: RE: abstract attached for conferences in July Minnesota I submitted an abstract about yawning in around October, with my name on it as the presenting author. See copy of that abstract below. Information about two co-workers was also on the original submission (Jane Harper and Greg Geiger). You kept sending it back to me at the time. I think your original form was faulty or missing some information. You kept the final one I submitted. I sent it almost as soon as your call for papers hit the ISAE discussion list. Abstract TEXT>The hypothesis tested was that dogs can not be easily trained to yawn on command. This hypothesis was presented by Martin Seligman in 1970 (On The Generality of the Laws of Learning: 1970 Psychological Review vol 77, pp. 406-418) as a prime example of a psychological canine learning limitation. Learning limitations were hypothesised to occur because the dog's brain was said to be contra-prepared to easily learn certain psychological tasks. The theory of psychological preparedness formed to explain this "phenomena". This theory has been accepted for many years and appears in most major texts. Together with two co-workers, I set out in an attempt to train dogs to yawn on command, disproving the stated hypothesis, and questioning the validity of psychological preparedness theory. In total, we trained four dogs to yawn on command. They are each part of a close multi-dog family household receiving a very large amount of human contact. Breed and age varies. Dogs 1,2 and 4 are a part of my own household, and represent every dog in my household. Dog 3 is a part of a co-workers household, which has three dogs in total. The time taken to train each dog varied from minutes to days. Each dog was easily trained to yawn on command using a combination of traditional gentle training methods. A brief outline of each dog and the method used follows (in order of training): (1) "Dog1" a desexed male. Dog1 came to live with me in mid 2002 as a mature entire male exact age unknown. Dog1 had at least two previous homes and had aggression problems. He had mildly subluxating patellae and walked with straight hind legs dragging his hind nails. Dog1 received Rimadyl 50 mgs once daily long term. Dog1 had apparently not received even a basic education, and very slowly learned the house rules. Dog1 took over 3 months to train to sit reliably. A co-worker developed an especially close relationship with Dog1. In March 2003, we began teaching Dog1 to yawn on command by yawning at dog1 and making it a game. A hand signal was composed and introduced. The hand signal is a modification of the "speak" signal, with the thumb and forefinger touching. Within a few days Dog1 was yawning on cue. Dog1 died in July 2004. He was not given a post-mortem. The presumed cause of death was a bleeding hemangiosarcoma. (2) "Dog2" a four year old desexed female. Dog2 was purchased from a breeder at 8 weeks of age. Dog2 learned to yawn on cue by observing dog1 receive food rewards for the action, plus shaping and aproximation. (3) "Dog3" a four year old desexed male camp-dog/dingo. Dog3 took a few days to train to yawn on cue, and was trained independently of dogs 1, 2 and 4 by a co-worker in a separate household. (4) "Dog4" a 20 month old desexed male Dog. Dog4 came to my home in July 2004. His full history is known. Dog4 is very easy to train. Dog4 learned to yawn on cue within minutes. Dog4 can yawn the most repeatedly and reliably without fatiguing and with almost no approximating. All four dogs use the yawn in spontaneous attempts to solicit human food and attention. It has become a tool for communication. The co-worker and owner of dog3 noticed an improvement in inter-dog relationships within the household since yawn training. Dogs may have greater cognitive abilities than previously believed. A close rapport with humans may be required for humans to measure their true cognitive abilities. Home video footage will accompany the talk. J -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Mills [mailto:dmills@lincoln.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 7:13 PM To: Geiger Subject: RE: abstract attached for conferences in July Minnesota That might be because you have listed Ken Dagley as the contact presenting author on your abstract - see extract below from your cover sheet. We can only correspond with this address until authorised by the person to the contrary D Cover sheet for all submissions to the 5th International Meeting on Veterinary Behavioural Medicine. Please use one cover sheet for each submission. Please note: author name and address details should NOT be included in the accompanying abstract. References to institutions or other items which might lead to the identification of the authors may be anonymous, e.g. "subjects were recruited from the clinic of the first author" or "subjects were recruited from clinic X", may be appropriate. Name of presenting author (this need not be the same as the first author of the final work) Ken Dagley Postal address 136 Foggs Rd Mt Samson Qld 4520 Australia Electronic mail address ken.dagley@bigpond.com Co-workers involved in the work and addresses 1.Greg Geiger 2.Jackie Perkins 3. Linda Perkins Daniel S. Mills BVSc PhD ILTM CBiol MIBiol MRCVS Professor & RCVS Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Behavioural Medicine Animal Behaviour, Cognition & Welfare Group University of Lincoln, Dept of Biological Sciences, Riseholme Park, Lincoln, U.K. LN2 2LG tel 44 (0)1522 895356 email dmills@lincoln.ac.uk web page: http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/dbs/staff/d-mills.htm _____ From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: 21 October 2004 05:02 To: Danny Mills Subject: abstract attached for conferences in July Minnesota This e-mail is for the use of the intended recipient(s) only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose or distribute this e-mail without the author's prior permission. We have taken precautions to minimise the risk of transmitting software viruses, but we advise you to carry out your own virus checks on any attachment to this message. We cannot accept liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. From: IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 2-FEB-2005 16:16:12.55 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger", IN%"dmills@lincoln.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: High quality papers "lost" for political reasons: censorship Jackie Why are you sending this to the whole discussion list? I presume that you = are trying to make some kind of point (what, I'm not sure - and neither do = I care). This is debate between you and Daniel is not of interest to the l= ist, so please stop wasting our time with your petty political games. =20 Carol =20 Carol Petherick Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Department of Primary Industries & Fisheries =20 Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390 Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au =20 -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2005 7:45 AM To: 'Daniel Mills' Cc: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: High quality papers "lost" for political reasons: censorship =20 Dear Daniel, It did go on the official form downloaded from your link. Do n= ot now tell me it is too late when you lost it.=20 It was submitted right away, as soon as you posted the invitation for paper= s. I was waiting for that invitation. If it is indeed lost, I suspect it wa= s deliberate, given the manner in which I have been treated by certain peop= le who I shall not name herein. Jackie Perkins =20 -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Mills [mailto:dmills@lincoln.ac.uk]=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 7:59 PM To: Geiger Subject: RE: abstract attached for conferences in July Minnesota =20 I'm very sorry, but if it did not come on the official form, it did not get= into the system. Submissions had to be on the form with a cover sheet to b= e considered (i.e as an attachment). When I received an e-mail from you wit= h the correct form of attachment I asssumed this was what you had been tryi= ng to send before. So in short, I'm afraid your submission has not been acc= epted.=20 =20 Daniel S. Mills BVSc PhD ILTM CBiol MIBiol MRCVS=20 Professor & RCVS Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Behavioural Medicine Animal Behaviour, Cognition & Welfare Group=20 University of Lincoln,=20 Dept of Biological Sciences,=20 Riseholme Park,=20 Lincoln, U.K.=20 LN2 2LG=20 tel 44 (0)1522 895356=20 email dmills@lincoln.ac.uk=20 web page: http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/dbs/staff/d-mills.htm=20 =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]=20 Sent: 01 February 2005 21:15 To: 'Daniel Mills' Subject: RE: abstract attached for conferences in July Minnesota I submitted an abstract about yawning in around October, with my name on it= as the presenting author. See copy of that abstract below. Information abo= ut two co-workers was also on the original submission (Jane Harper and Greg= Geiger). You kept sending it back to me at the time. I think your original= form was faulty or missing some information. You kept the final one I subm= itted. I sent it almost as soon as your call for papers hit the ISAE discus= sion list. =20 Abstract TEXT>The hypothesis tested was that dogs can not be easily trained to yawn on command. This hypothesis was presented by Martin Seligman in 1970 (= On The Generality of the Laws of Learning: 1970 Psychological Review vol 77= , pp. 406-418) as a prime example of a psychological canine learning limita= tion. Learning limitations were hypothesised to occur because the dog's bra= in was said to be contra-prepared to easily learn certain psychological tas= ks. The theory of psychological preparedness formed to explain this "phenom= ena". This theory has been accepted for many years and appears in most majo= r texts. Together with two co-workers, I set out in an attempt to train dog= s to yawn on command, disproving the stated hypothesis, and questioning the= validity of psychological preparedness theory. In total, we trained four d= ogs to yawn on command. They are each part of a close multi-dog family hous= ehold receiving a very large amount of human contact. Breed and age varies.= Dogs 1,2 and 4 are a part of my own household, and represent every dog in = my household. Dog 3 is a part of a co-workers household, which has three do= gs in total. The time taken to train each dog varied from minutes to days. = Each dog was easily trained to yawn on command using a combination of tradi= tional gentle training methods. A brief outline of each dog and the method = used follows (in order of training): (1) "Dog1" a desexed male. Dog1 came to live with me in mid 2002 as a matur= e entire male exact age unknown. Dog1 had at least two previous homes and h= ad aggression problems. He had mildly subluxating patellae and walked with = straight hind legs dragging his hind nails. Dog1 received Rimadyl 50 mgs on= ce daily long term. Dog1 had apparently not received even a basic education= , and very slowly learned the house rules. Dog1 took over 3 months to train= to sit reliably. A co-worker developed an especially close relationship wi= th Dog1. In March 2003, we began teaching Dog1 to yawn on command by yawnin= g at dog1 and making it a game. A hand signal was composed and introduced.= The hand signal is a modification of the "speak" signal, with the thumb an= d forefinger touching. Within a few days Dog1 was yawning on cue. Dog1 died= in July 2004. He was not given a post-mortem. The presumed cause of death = was a bleeding hemangiosarcoma. (2) "Dog2" a four year old desexed female. Dog2 was purchased from a breede= r at 8 weeks of age. Dog2 learned to yawn on cue by observing dog1 receive = food rewards for the action, plus shaping and aproximation.=20 (3) "Dog3" a four year old desexed male camp-dog/dingo. Dog3 took a few day= s to train to yawn on cue, and was trained independently of dogs 1, 2 and 4= by a co-worker in a separate household.=20 (4) "Dog4" a 20 month old desexed male Dog. Dog4 came to my home in July 20= 04. His full history is known. Dog4 is very easy to train. Dog4 learned to = yawn on cue within minutes. Dog4 can yawn the most repeatedly and reliably = without fatiguing and with almost no approximating.=20 All four dogs use the yawn in spontaneous attempts to solicit human food an= d attention. It has become a tool for communication. The co-worker and owne= r of dog3 noticed an improvement in inter-dog relationships within the hous= ehold since yawn training. Dogs may have greater cognitive abilities than p= reviously believed. A close rapport with humans may be required for humans = to measure their true cognitive abilities. Home video footage will accompan= y the talk.=20 =20 J =20 -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Mills [mailto:dmills@lincoln.ac.uk]=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 7:13 PM To: Geiger Subject: RE: abstract attached for conferences in July Minnesota =20 That might be because you have listed Ken Dagley as the contact presenting = author on your abstract - see extract below from your cover sheet. We can o= nly correspond with this address until authorised by the person to the cont= rary D Cover sheet for all submissions to the 5th International Meeting on Veterin= ary Behavioural Medicine. =20 Please use one cover sheet for each submission.=20 =20 Please note: author name and address details should NOT be included in the = accompanying abstract. References to institutions or other items which migh= t lead to the identification of the authors may be anonymous, e.g. "subject= s were recruited from the clinic of the first author" or "subjects were rec= ruited from clinic X", may be appropriate. =20 Name of presenting author (this need not be the same as the first author of= the final work) Ken Dagley Postal address 136 Foggs Rd Mt Samson Qld 4520 Australia Electronic mail address=20 ken.dagley@bigpond.com =20 Co-workers involved in the work and addresses =20 1.Greg Geiger =20 2.Jackie Perkins =20 3. Linda Perkins =20 =20 =20 Daniel S. Mills BVSc PhD ILTM CBiol MIBiol MRCVS=20 Professor & RCVS Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Behavioural Medicine Animal Behaviour, Cognition & Welfare Group=20 University of Lincoln,=20 Dept of Biological Sciences,=20 Riseholme Park,=20 Lincoln, U.K.=20 LN2 2LG=20 tel 44 (0)1522 895356=20 email dmills@lincoln.ac.uk=20 web page: http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/dbs/staff/d-mills.htm=20 =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]=20 Sent: 21 October 2004 05:02 To: Danny Mills Subject: abstract attached for conferences in July Minnesota =20 =20 This e-mail is for the use of the intended recipient(s) only. If you have = received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and the= n delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disc= lose or distribute this e-mail without the author's prior permission. We h= ave taken precautions to minimise the risk of transmitting software viruses= , but we advise you to carry out your own virus checks on any attachment to= this message. We cannot accept liability for any loss or damage caused by= software viruses.=20 ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages=20 (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally=20 privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity=20 to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of=20 disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken=20 or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions=20 contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions=20 of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received=20 this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and=20 delete it from your computer system network.=20 From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 2-FEB-2005 21:27:27.41 To: IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au" "'Petherick, Carol'" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: High quality papers "lost" for political reasons: censorship Because the only way people get away with doing things like this is by keeping it quiet. If you do not approve of free speech, then you approve of the kind of behaviour I am complaining about. People can get away with just about anything so long as it is kept hush. This debate is not between Daniel and me; would you care if someone did this to you? I would, on principle. I hope you are not saying that it is my personal problem, and hush up. Frankly I am stunned that Daniel was involved in this. I have met him and did not expect him to do something like this. To suggest it was "lost" is insulting my intelligence. We (Daniel and I) corresponded on the finer points of my submission for a full week back in around October 2004 until he was satisfied with it. If it were sincerely "lost" then I would expect whoever "lost" it to make it right. That would be a demonstration of sincereity. To now just say "sorry" is just plain insulting. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Petherick, Carol [mailto:Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 8:13 AM To: Geiger; Daniel Mills Cc: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: High quality papers "lost" for political reasons: censorship Jackie Why are you sending this to the whole discussion list? I presume that you are trying to make some kind of point (what, I'm not sure - and neither do I care). This is debate between you and Daniel is not of interest to the list, so please stop wasting our time with your petty political games. Carol Carol Petherick Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Department of Primary Industries & Fisheries Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390 Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2005 7:45 AM To: 'Daniel Mills' Cc: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: High quality papers "lost" for political reasons: censorship Dear Daniel, It did go on the official form downloaded from your link. Do not now tell me it is too late when you lost it. It was submitted right away, as soon as you posted the invitation for papers. I was waiting for that invitation. If it is indeed lost, I suspect it was deliberate, given the manner in which I have been treated by certain people who I shall not name herein. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Mills [mailto:dmills@lincoln.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 7:59 PM To: Geiger Subject: RE: abstract attached for conferences in July Minnesota I'm very sorry, but if it did not come on the official form, it did not get into the system. Submissions had to be on the form with a cover sheet to be considered (i.e as an attachment). When I received an e-mail from you with the correct form of attachment I asssumed this was what you had been trying to send before. So in short, I'm afraid your submission has not been accepted. Daniel S. Mills BVSc PhD ILTM CBiol MIBiol MRCVS Professor & RCVS Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Behavioural Medicine Animal Behaviour, Cognition & Welfare Group University of Lincoln, Dept of Biological Sciences, Riseholme Park, Lincoln, U.K. LN2 2LG tel 44 (0)1522 895356 email dmills@lincoln.ac.uk web page: http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/dbs/staff/d-mills.htm _____ From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: 01 February 2005 21:15 To: 'Daniel Mills' Subject: RE: abstract attached for conferences in July Minnesota I submitted an abstract about yawning in around October, with my name on it as the presenting author. See copy of that abstract below. Information about two co-workers was also on the original submission (Jane Harper and Greg Geiger). You kept sending it back to me at the time. I think your original form was faulty or missing some information. You kept the final one I submitted. I sent it almost as soon as your call for papers hit the ISAE discussion list. Abstract TEXT>The hypothesis tested was that dogs can not be easily trained to yawn on command. This hypothesis was presented by Martin Seligman in 1970 (On The Generality of the Laws of Learning: 1970 Psychological Review vol 77, pp. 406-418) as a prime example of a psychological canine learning limitation. Learning limitations were hypothesised to occur because the dog's brain was said to be contra-prepared to easily learn certain psychological tasks. The theory of psychological preparedness formed to explain this "phenomena". This theory has been accepted for many years and appears in most major texts. Together with two co-workers, I set out in an attempt to train dogs to yawn on command, disproving the stated hypothesis, and questioning the validity of psychological preparedness theory. In total, we trained four dogs to yawn on command. They are each part of a close multi-dog family household receiving a very large amount of human contact. Breed and age varies. Dogs 1,2 and 4 are a part of my own household, and represent every dog in my household. Dog 3 is a part of a co-workers household, which has three dogs in total. The time taken to train each dog varied from minutes to days. Each dog was easily trained to yawn on command using a combination of traditional gentle training methods. A brief outline of each dog and the method used follows (in order of training): (1) "Dog1" a desexed male. Dog1 came to live with me in mid 2002 as a mature entire male exact age unknown. Dog1 had at least two previous homes and had aggression problems. He had mildly subluxating patellae and walked with straight hind legs dragging his hind nails. Dog1 received Rimadyl 50 mgs once daily long term. Dog1 had apparently not received even a basic education, and very slowly learned the house rules. Dog1 took over 3 months to train to sit reliably. A co-worker developed an especially close relationship with Dog1. In March 2003, we began teaching Dog1 to yawn on command by yawning at dog1 and making it a game. A hand signal was composed and introduced. The hand signal is a modification of the "speak" signal, with the thumb and forefinger touching. Within a few days Dog1 was yawning on cue. Dog1 died in July 2004. He was not given a post-mortem. The presumed cause of death was a bleeding hemangiosarcoma. (2) "Dog2" a four year old desexed female. Dog2 was purchased from a breeder at 8 weeks of age. Dog2 learned to yawn on cue by observing dog1 receive food rewards for the action, plus shaping and aproximation. (3) "Dog3" a four year old desexed male camp-dog/dingo. Dog3 took a few days to train to yawn on cue, and was trained independently of dogs 1, 2 and 4 by a co-worker in a separate household. (4) "Dog4" a 20 month old desexed male Dog. Dog4 came to my home in July 2004. His full history is known. Dog4 is very easy to train. Dog4 learned to yawn on cue within minutes. Dog4 can yawn the most repeatedly and reliably without fatiguing and with almost no approximating. All four dogs use the yawn in spontaneous attempts to solicit human food and attention. It has become a tool for communication. The co-worker and owner of dog3 noticed an improvement in inter-dog relationships within the household since yawn training. Dogs may have greater cognitive abilities than previously believed. A close rapport with humans may be required for humans to measure their true cognitive abilities. Home video footage will accompany the talk. J -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Mills [mailto:dmills@lincoln.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 7:13 PM To: Geiger Subject: RE: abstract attached for conferences in July Minnesota That might be because you have listed Ken Dagley as the contact presenting author on your abstract - see extract below from your cover sheet. We can only correspond with this address until authorised by the person to the contrary D Cover sheet for all submissions to the 5th International Meeting on Veterinary Behavioural Medicine. Please use one cover sheet for each submission. Please note: author name and address details should NOT be included in the accompanying abstract. References to institutions or other items which might lead to the identification of the authors may be anonymous, e.g. "subjects were recruited from the clinic of the first author" or "subjects were recruited from clinic X", may be appropriate. Name of presenting author (this need not be the same as the first author of the final work) Ken Dagley Postal address 136 Foggs Rd Mt Samson Qld 4520 Australia Electronic mail address ken.dagley@bigpond.com Co-workers involved in the work and addresses 1.Greg Geiger 2.Jackie Perkins 3. Linda Perkins Daniel S. Mills BVSc PhD ILTM CBiol MIBiol MRCVS Professor & RCVS Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Behavioural Medicine Animal Behaviour, Cognition & Welfare Group University of Lincoln, Dept of Biological Sciences, Riseholme Park, Lincoln, U.K. LN2 2LG tel 44 (0)1522 895356 email dmills@lincoln.ac.uk web page: http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/dbs/staff/d-mills.htm _____ From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: 21 October 2004 05:02 To: Danny Mills Subject: abstract attached for conferences in July Minnesota This e-mail is for the use of the intended recipient(s) only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose or distribute this e-mail without the author's prior permission. We have taken precautions to minimise the risk of transmitting software viruses, but we advise you to carry out your own virus checks on any attachment to this message. We cannot accept liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. From: IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk" "Francis Burton" 3-FEB-2005 02:55:44.61 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" Subj: RE: High quality papers "lost" for political reasons: censorship At 13:26 03/02/05 +1000, Geiger wrote: >>>>[whole bunch of unreadable and unnecessary html code deleted] >This debate is not between Daniel and me Then who is this debate between? All members of the applied-ethology list, or just some? What would you like me personally to do about it? Francis From: IN%"M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl" 3-FEB-2005 06:36:55.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs Dear people, It is known that sometimes male dogs become aggressive towards their female owner, when this owner gets pregnant. In the case I came across today, the 7 month pregnant female is greeted every morning by a growling dog, which also pees in the house right in front of her, hindleg lifted. The female has not much of a relationship with the dog and has a poor command over it. The command of the male is far better. What I do not know is, whether this aggressive behaviour stops when the baby is born, or that the aggressive behaviour towards the female tends to continue after birth. If anyone can help me out here, I would appreciate this very much. I am not aware of any literature reference, although I know of mentioning of such case on the net. regards, Matthijs Schilder From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 3-FEB-2005 07:38:28.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs > Matthijs Schilder Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 4:36 AM > > It is known that sometimes male dogs become aggressive towards their female > owner, when this owner gets pregnant. margory cohen: By whom? You wrote after that the woman does not have control over the dog. The man of the house does. Common sense insists on another interpretation of this, but since that's in short supply world-wide .... I would be obliged to see what passes for -science- on this. -margory cohen San Francisco From: IN%"ndiehl@psu.edu" "Nancy Diehl" 3-FEB-2005 07:44:52.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs oh come on ! I'm about to leave this list along with colleagues who've gone in the past. what brought on this current incivility?? Nancy Nancy Kate Diehl, MS, VMD The Pennsylvania State University Assistant Professor of Equine Science Department of Dairy and Animal Science 324 Henning Building University Park, PA 16802 phone: 814-863-9727 fax: 814-863-6042 email: ndiehl@psu.edu web: http://www.das.psu.edu -----Original Message----- From: margory cohen [mailto:margory@rcn.com] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 8:38 AM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs > Matthijs Schilder Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 4:36 AM > > It is known that sometimes male dogs become aggressive towards their female > owner, when this owner gets pregnant. margory cohen: By whom? You wrote after that the woman does not have control over the dog. The man of the house does. Common sense insists on another interpretation of this, but since that's in short supply world-wide .... I would be obliged to see what passes for -science- on this. -margory cohen San Francisco From: IN%"fludzinski@thales.com" "Marek Fludzinski" 3-FEB-2005 07:56:07.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs Someone thought it was April 1st instead of Feb 1st? ::: -----Original Message----- ::: From: Nancy Diehl [mailto:ndiehl@psu.edu] ::: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 8:45 AM ::: To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca ::: Subject: RE: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs ::: ::: ::: oh come on ! I'm about to leave this list along with ::: colleagues who've gone in the past. what brought on this ::: current incivility?? ::: ::: Nancy ::: ::: Nancy Kate Diehl, MS, VMD ::: The Pennsylvania State University ::: Assistant Professor of Equine Science ::: Department of Dairy and Animal Science ::: 324 Henning Building ::: University Park, PA 16802 ::: phone: 814-863-9727 ::: fax: 814-863-6042 ::: email: ndiehl@psu.edu ::: web: http://www.das.psu.edu ::: ::: ::: ::: -----Original Message----- ::: From: margory cohen [mailto:margory@rcn.com] ::: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 8:38 AM ::: To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca ::: Subject: Re: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs ::: ::: ::: > Matthijs Schilder ::: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 4:36 AM ::: ::: > ::: > It is known that sometimes male dogs become aggressive ::: towards their ::: female ::: > owner, when this owner gets pregnant. ::: ::: ::: margory cohen: ::: ::: By whom? ::: ::: You wrote after that the woman does not have control over ::: the dog. The man of the house does. Common sense insists ::: on another interpretation of this, but since that's in ::: short supply world-wide .... ::: ::: I would be obliged to see what passes for -science- on this. ::: ::: -margory cohen ::: San Francisco ::: ::: ::: ::: ::: From: IN%"marine.bedoucha@wanadoo.fr" "Marine C. Bedoucha" 3-FEB-2005 09:11:54.60 To: IN%"M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs Matthijs, I'd think that the behavior of the dog has to do with the relationship=20= it has with the woman and not with the fact that she is pregnant. Could the problem with the woman might rather be a status issue? Could her pregnancy have made her more fearful or nervous around the=20 dog, thus adding to the already existing problem between herself and=20 the dog? Has anything changed for the dog since the pregnancy? What about its=20 feeding habits, exercise, play, sleeping habits - has any of this been=20= changed since the woman is pregnant, that the dog could interpret as=20 challenging his status in the house? Is the dog suddenly denied=20 anything it took for granted before? While it is possible that dogs detect hormonal changes in pregnant=20 women, I have never heard of dogs becoming aggressive. Where did you=20 get this information? Is there any scientific study that proves this? I would think that males tend to stay away from / avoid conflict with=20 pregnant or lactating females, human or canine Marine Thursday 3 February 2005, =E0 07:36 AM, M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl a = =E9crit=20 : > Dear people, > > It is known that sometimes male dogs become aggressive towards their=20= > female > owner, when this owner gets pregnant. > In the case I came across today, the 7 month pregnant female is = greeted > every morning by a growling dog, which also pees in the house right in=20= > front > of her, hindleg lifted. The female has not much of a relationship=20 > with the > dog and has a poor command over it. The command of the male is far=20 > better. > What I do not know is, whether this aggressive behaviour stops when=20 > the baby > is born, or that the aggressive behaviour towards the female tends to > continue after birth. > If anyone can help me out here, I would appreciate this very much. I=20= > am not > aware of any literature reference, although I know of mentioning of=20 > such > case on the net. > > regards, > > Matthijs Schilder > > Marine Cassoret-Bedoucha www.marinefishpage.fr.st/ ><((((=BA> ><((((=BA> =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0 From: IN%"sharma@AESOP.Rutgers.edu" "Daniela Sharma, Ph.D." 3-FEB-2005 09:42:11.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs I agree with Marine on this =96 the previous relationship of the woma= n with=0D=0Athe dog and the possible changes in environment and their= relationship now=0D=0Athat she is pregnant confounds any assessment = we can hope to make regarding=0D=0Athe effect of pregnancy on dog agg= ression. The pregnant woman needs to=0D=0Aimprove her relationship w= ith the dog immediately. =0D=0A=0D=0A =0D=0A=0D=0AA quick search on= PubMed and I came up with nothing regarding aggression and=0D=0Apreg= nant humans, but I could have missed something. I am hoping that= =0D=0Asomeone will share some references.=0D=0A=0D=0A =0D=0A=0D=0A = =0D=0A=0D=0ADaniela Sharma=0D=0A=0D=0ARutgers University=0D=0A=0D= =0A =0D=0A=0D=0A =0D=0A=0D=0ADaniela Sharma, Ph.D.=0D=0A=0D=0AAssista= nt Director, Project/Program Management=0D=0A=0D=0ACook College/NJAES= =0D=0A=0D=0A88 Lipman Drive=0D=0A=0D=0ANew Brunswick, NJ 08901=0D= =0A=0D=0A732-932-1000x577=0D=0A=0D=0A732-932-4176 (FAX)=0D=0A=0D=0A = =0D=0A=0D=0A _____ =0D=0A=0D=0AFrom: Marine C. Bedoucha [mailto:mar= ine.bedoucha@wanadoo.fr] =0D=0ASent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:2= 3 AM=0D=0ATo: M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl=0D=0ACc: applied-ethology@sask= .usask.ca=0D=0ASubject: Re: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs=0D= =0A=0D=0A =0D=0A=0D=0AMatthijs,=0D=0A=0D=0AI'd think that the behavio= r of the dog has to do with the relationship it=0D=0Ahas with the wom= an and not with the fact that she is pregnant. =0D=0A=0D=0ACould the = problem with the woman might rather be a status issue?=0D=0A=0D=0ACou= ld her pregnancy have made her more fearful or nervous around the dog= ,=0D=0Athus adding to the already existing problem between herself an= d the dog? =0D=0A=0D=0AHas anything changed for the dog since the pre= gnancy? What about its feeding=0D=0Ahabits, exercise, play, sleeping = habits - has any of this been changed since=0D=0Athe woman is pregnan= t, that the dog could interpret as challenging his=0D=0Astatus in the= house? Is the dog suddenly denied anything it took for granted=0D= =0Abefore?=0D=0A=0D=0AWhile it is possible that dogs detect hormonal = changes in pregnant women, I=0D=0Ahave never heard of dogs becoming a= ggressive. Where did you get this=0D=0Ainformation? Is there any scie= ntific study that proves this?=0D=0A=0D=0AI would think that males te= nd to stay away from / avoid conflict with=0D=0Apregnant or lactating= females, human or canine =0D=0A=0D=0AMarine=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A= =0D=0AThursday 3 February 2005, =E0 07:36 AM, M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.n= l a =E9crit :=0D=0A=0D=0ADear people, =0D=0A=0D=0AIt is known that so= metimes male dogs become aggressive towards their female=0D=0Aowner, = when this owner gets pregnant.=0D=0AIn the case I came across today, = the 7 month pregnant female is greeted=0D=0Aevery morning by a growli= ng dog, which also pees in the house right in front=0D=0Aof her, hind= leg lifted. The female has not much of a relationship with the=0D= =0Adog and has a poor command over it. The command of the male is far= better.=0D=0AWhat I do not know is, whether this aggressive behaviou= r stops when the baby=0D=0Ais born, or that the aggressive behaviour = towards the female tends to=0D=0Acontinue after birth.=0D=0AIf anyone= can help me out here, I would appreciate this very much. I am not= =0D=0Aaware of any literature reference, although I know of mentionin= g of such=0D=0Acase on the net.=0D=0A=0D=0Aregards, =0D=0A=0D=0AMatth= ijs Schilder=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0AMarine Cassoret-Bedoucha=0D=0Awww= .marinefishpage.fr.st/=0D=0A><((((=BA> ><((((=BA> =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0= =B0=0D=0A=0D=0A= From: IN%"chris.redenbach@gmail.com" "Chris Redenbach" 3-FEB-2005 11:53:00.79 To: IN%"M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl" "M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs There are a couple of things that come to mind as possible triggers to the dog's threat behavior in these circumstances. First, there is a dramatically changing visual of the woman as her belly gets bigger. This would also tend to change her posture and who knows how an insecure dog may interpret all that. I don't think you mentioned the size of the dog but that could also alter how he sees the woman given her change. I would imagine that she is holding her shoulders a bit higher and walking more erect or even leaning back a bit because of the changes in weight and balance as she gets bigger. Suddenly she may be appearing threatening to the dog due to this more upright posture combined with a larger mass and profile. Isn't that how we make threats? She may also be reinforcing the dog by turning or some other action as a protective measure for the fetus when the dog growls. You must carefully look at all these body language possibilities. The dog should also be able to smell the hormonal change due to the pregnancy. I don't know anything about how the hormones change exactly in women, but in a discussion with my veterinarian over a bitch of mine who was experiencing a false pregnancy, her progesterone was quite high during that time. And I also don't know, but would imagine, that the dog can also smell the fetus and is confused by detecting another somebody whom he cannot see...so expectations of what is normal are not met, confusing him. The expectation might be, "if you smell two people, you should see two people." While the woman's relationship with the dog is obviously out of balance, and she is at some risk due to her condition, so before deciding how to handle the problem exactly, more info is needed about the rest of their relationship and history. But my guess is that the dog's motivations must be changed so that he a happier guy about the changes in his owner. He has to discover how the changes in her represent benefits for him. Let us know how it goes. Chris Redenbach The Balanced Dog On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 13:36:39 +0100, M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl wrote: > Dear people, > > It is known that sometimes male dogs become aggressive towards their female > owner, when this owner gets pregnant. > In the case I came across today, the 7 month pregnant female is greeted > every morning by a growling dog, which also pees in the house right in front > of her, hindleg lifted. The female has not much of a relationship with the > dog and has a poor command over it. The command of the male is far better. > What I do not know is, whether this aggressive behaviour stops when the baby > is born, or that the aggressive behaviour towards the female tends to > continue after birth. > If anyone can help me out here, I would appreciate this very much. I am not > aware of any literature reference, although I know of mentioning of such > case on the net. > > regards, > > Matthijs Schilder > From: IN%"GGolab@avma.org" "Dr. Gail Golab" 3-FEB-2005 18:13:40.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Nominations Open for AVMA Awards Good evening everyone (at least it's evening where I reside :-)): I'm always happy to let people know about opportunities for recognition in the field of human-animal interactions. In keeping with this, I wanted to be sure that the members of this list were aware that the American Veterinary Medical Association has opened its call for nominations for two awards: the Bustad Companion Animal Veterinarian of the Year Award and the Animal Welfare Award. Descriptions and a link to more information about each follow. Please don't hesitate to contact me off list if you have questions. Call for Nominations for the 2005 Bustad Companion Animal Veterinarian of the Year Award Developed to recognize the outstanding work of veterinarians in preserving and protecting human-animal relationships, the Bustad Companion Animal Veterinarian of the Year Award is co-sponsored by the AVMA, Delta Society, and Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc. Deadline for nominations is March 15, 2005. For more information visit: http://www.avma.org/awards/#bustad Call for Nominations for the 2005 AVMA Animal Welfare Award The Animal Welfare Award is given annually to an AVMA member who has advanced animal well-being, shown exemplary dedication to animal care, and contributed to the community and society. Deadline for nominations is March 15, 2005. For more information visit: http://www.avma.org/awards/#awa Regards, Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM Assistant Director, Professional and Public Affairs Communications Division American Veterinary Medical Association From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 3-FEB-2005 19:50:16.34 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: appreciating the human "glasses" we each necessarily look through in a personal and professional capacity Published in the December 2004 edition of the Australian Veterinary Journal: TWO SIDES TO THE BOND Dear editor, The "Pet-human" bond has been discussed with increasing frequency by members of our profession. While I am impressed by the demonstration of increasing awareness of this critical subject so central to treating companion animals, I am also struck by the almost complete absence amongst Veterinarians of qualifications on the human side of that equation. Not only is there an almost complete lack of qualifications in the social sciences amongst our profession, there seems to be a certain amount of contempt for the study of the social sciences. To gain expertise in the social sciences requires formal study, just like acquiring Veterinary expertise does. To presume to just "pick it up as one goes along" is not good enough for our precious clients, each with their unique pet-human bond, which many of my colleagues claim to treat while bereft of any credentials on the human side of the pet-human equation. Another important benefit reaped through study of the social sciences is tolerance and appreciation for colleagues with differing personality types and correspondingly differing professional styles. Sadly, such is lacking within our profession in my experience and underscores the urgent need for Veterinarians to undertake formal education in human psychology if our profession is to move forward with integrity. Veterinary education alone does NOT a therapist of the Pet-human bond make. Jackie Perkins From: IN%"jorighetti@optusnet.com.au" "Joanne Righetti" 3-FEB-2005 22:17:04.68 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"list@asc.asn.au" CC: Subj: writing about dogs Hi All, I am writing a booklet on dogs and have had several people edit it, all with different suggestions as to how I refer to dogs eg. he/she, it. For example I say "Give your dog more exercise. Take him or her to an off-leash area." I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't it matter? (a) he/she (b) he or she (c) he (d) she (e) he alternating with she (f) it (g) all of the above Love to hear your opinions! Joanne Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviourist Sydney From: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" 3-FEB-2005 22:38:44.16 To: IN%"jorighetti@optusnet.com.au" "Joanne Righetti" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"list@asc.asn.au" Subj: RE: writing about dogs I'm for s/he and him/her or her/him. cissy Joanne Righetti wrote: > Hi All, > > > > I am writing a booklet on dogs and have had several people edit it, all > with different suggestions as to how I refer to dogs eg. he/she, it. > > > > For example I say ?Give your dog more exercise. Take him or her to an > off-leash area?? > > > > I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various > references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a > particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't > it matter? > > > > (a) he/she > > (b) he or she > > (c) he > > (d) she > > (e) he alternating with she > > (f) it > > (g) all of the above > > > > Love to hear your opinions! > > > > Joanne > > > > > > > > Dr Joanne Righetti > > Animal Behaviourist > > Sydney From: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "Johanna =?UNKNOWN?Q?V=E4is=E4nen?=" 3-FEB-2005 22:50:47.16 To: IN%"jorighetti@optusnet.com.au" "Joanne Righetti", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"list@asc.asn.au" CC: Subj: RE: writing about dogs Hi, In Finland it's all the way it. We even use it for humans on a daily basis. But of a dog definitely IT. Using he/she sounds just fony! cheers Johanna At 05:16 2005-02-04, Joanne Righetti wrote: >Hi All, > >I am writing a booklet on dogs and have had several people edit it, all >with different suggestions as to how I refer to dogs eg. he/she, it. > >For example I say "Give your dog more exercise. Take him or her to an >off-leash area…" > >I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various >references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a >particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't it >matter? > >(a) he/she >(b) he or she >(c) he >(d) she >(e) he alternating with she >(f) it >(g) all of the above > >Love to hear your opinions! > >Joanne > > > >Dr Joanne Righetti >Animal Behaviourist >Sydney > > > > _______________________________________________________ Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Linköping SE-581 83 Linköping Sweden Phone: +44-13-281100 Mobile: +358-440-172428 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se ________________________________________________________ From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 3-FEB-2005 23:36:48.14 To: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Johanna_V=E4is=E4nen?=", IN%"jorighetti@optusnet.com.au" "Joanne Righetti", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"list@asc.asn.au" CC: Subj: RE: writing about dogs Amen, Johanna V- -Stanley Curtis ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Johanna V=E4is=E4nen=20 To: Joanne Righetti ; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca ; = list@asc.asn.au=20 Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:50 PM Subject: Re: writing about dogs Hi, In Finland it's all the way it. We even use it for humans on a daily = basis. But of a dog definitely IT. Using he/she sounds just fony! cheers Johanna At 05:16 2005-02-04, Joanne Righetti wrote: Hi All, =20 I am writing a booklet on dogs and have had several people edit = it, all with different suggestions as to how I refer to dogs eg. he/she, = it. =20 For example I say "Give your dog more exercise. Take him or her to = an off-leash area." =20 I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various = references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a = particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't = it matter? =20 (a) he/she (b) he or she (c) he (d) she (e) he alternating with she (f) it (g) all of the above =20 Love to hear your opinions! =20 Joanne =20 =20 =20 Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviourist Sydney =20 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________________ Johanna V=E4is=E4nen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Link=F6ping SE-581 83 Link=F6ping Sweden Phone: +44-13-281100 Mobile: +358-440-172428=20 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se=20 ________________________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" "John R. Lane" 4-FEB-2005 01:12:38.05 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: Re:writing about dogs Personally I prefer either or perhaps a mixture of both of the following. Regards John L. New Zealand. (a) he/she (b) he or she From: IN%"coape@nildram.co.uk" "Robin Walker" 4-FEB-2005 02:33:39.84 To: IN%"jorighetti@optusnet.com.au" "'Joanne Righetti'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"list@asc.asn.au" CC: Subj: RE: writing about dogs They are dogs! They do not deserve a lesser title. They have prefixes such as your-, my-, that-, our- In direct address they are called "Sir, Madam, gooboy, googeel and hooza? (as in hooza-googeel?) The ascending continuum of approbation runs "good, good-good, woozle, and absolute-woozle. They are NEVER called "it" and "bitch" is right out! A gay dog is of course quite PC these days. Really outstanding females are "great guys" or "cracking chaps" Robin (not a she) Walker -----Original Message----- From: Joanne Righetti [mailto:jorighetti@optusnet.com.au] Sent: 04 February 2005 04:16 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca; list@asc.asn.au Subject: writing about dogs Hi All, I am writing a booklet on dogs and have had several people edit it, all with different suggestions as to how I refer to dogs eg. he/she, it. For example I say "Give your dog more exercise. Take him or her to an off-leash area." I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't it matter? (a) he/she (b) he or she (c) he (d) she (e) he alternating with she (f) it (g) all of the above Love to hear your opinions! Joanne Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviourist Sydney From: IN%"D.Lee@mcri.ac.uk" "Diane Lee" 4-FEB-2005 03:33:22.11 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: writing about dogs My only pet hate in this area is when people say 'it' when referring to an animal they know. It makes the poor creature seem so object-like! In the UK and maybe in other countries, dogs are traditionally referred to in literature as 'he' and cats as 'she'. Not sure why, but there's been no major demos, so I guess it's accepted! Diane -----Original Message----- From: Joanne Righetti [mailto:jorighetti@optusnet.com.au] Sent: 04 February 2005 04:16 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca; list@asc.asn.au Subject: writing about dogs Hi All, I am writing a booklet on dogs and have had several people edit it, all with different suggestions as to how I refer to dogs eg. he/she, it. For example I say "Give your dog more exercise. Take him or her to an off-leash area." I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't it matter? (a) he/she (b) he or she (c) he (d) she (e) he alternating with she (f) it (g) all of the above Love to hear your opinions! Joanne Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviourist Sydney From: IN%"pumilla@onetel.com" "jonathan balcombe" 4-FEB-2005 05:14:22.73 To: IN%"D.Lee@mcri.ac.uk" "Diane Lee", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: writing about dogs I share some readers' distaste for applying objectifying language to individual animals. How unscientific it is to write: "A female cardinal returns to its nest," as a photo caption reads in a book on birds. I address this brand of linguistic myopia in a book I recently finished writing titled Pleasurable Kingdom: The Animal Nature of Feeling Good. Fortunately, times are changing, with "it" and "that" increasingly being replaced by "she/he" and "who". Jonathan Balcombe York, UK ----- Original Message ----- From: Diane Lee To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 9:32 AM Subject: RE: writing about dogs My only pet hate in this area is when people say 'it' when referring to an animal they know. It makes the poor creature seem so object-like! In the UK and maybe in other countries, dogs are traditionally referred to in literature as 'he' and cats as 'she'. Not sure why, but there's been no major demos, so I guess it's accepted! Diane -----Original Message----- From: Joanne Righetti [mailto:jorighetti@optusnet.com.au] Sent: 04 February 2005 04:16 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca; list@asc.asn.au Subject: writing about dogs Hi All, I am writing a booklet on dogs and have had several people edit it, all with different suggestions as to how I refer to dogs eg. he/she, it. For example I say "Give your dog more exercise. Take him or her to an off-leash area." I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't it matter? (a) he/she (b) he or she (c) he (d) she (e) he alternating with she (f) it (g) all of the above Love to hear your opinions! Joanne Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviourist Sydney From: IN%"jcmhellenthal@chello.nl" "=?iso-8859-1?B?Sm9z6SBIZWxsZW50aGFs?=" 4-FEB-2005 05:27:45.73 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: writing about dogs For practical reasons I would choose for either he or she. Pamela Reid (Excel-erated Learning) informs the reader that in her book she refers to the dog as a "he" and to the human as a "she". The only reason for that is because Pamela Reid is a 'she' and her dog is a he'. I would never refer to a dog as 'it'. Though this will not hurt the dog, it might hurt the feelings of the reader. José Hellenthal Animal Behaviourist Ermelo, the Netherlands www.kynosense.nl "The brighter you are, the more you have to learn." Don Herold "Scratch a dog and you'll find a permanent job." Franklin P. Jones -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 03/02/2005 From: IN%"tbar12@student.monash.edu" "Tamzin Barber" 4-FEB-2005 05:45:38.27 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: cat/owner behaviour research Hello list members,=0D =0D =0D I am a fourth year student completing my Post Graduate Diploma in=0D Psychology and am conducting research under the supervision of Dr=0D Pauleen Bennett, a lecturer in the Department of Psychology at=0D Monash University, Melbourne Australia. The aim of this research=0D is to gain a better understanding of cat behaviour as well as cat=0D owner=92s attitudes to cats in general. It is hoped that the=0D findings of this project will help with the management of=0D behaviour exhibited by domestic felines.=0D =0D =0D =0D Do you own a cat? Are you interested in contributing towards=0D greater understanding of the behaviour of cats and their=0D psychological well being? If you would like to participate in=0D this study (it takes about 10-15 minutes) you can complete the=0D questionnaire online at:=0D =0D =0D =0D http://www.med.monash.edu.au/psych/questionnaire/tbarber/=0D =0D =0D =0D Also if you would like to learn about the results which will be=0D available later this year, you can email a request to this email=0D address.=0D =0D =0D Thank you for your help!=0D =0D =0D =0D - Tamzin Barber From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" 4-FEB-2005 08:33:09.23 To: IN%"M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs Dear Matthijs, In my work, I treat this kind of thing like any other distraction. In other words, the dog has a way to behave, period. If he does not like the people around, it is irrelevant. He is still held accountable for his behavior. Whether the dog is reacting only to a hormonal change, causing him to interpret his owner as now being "strange", or any other temporary change due to the pregnancy, or even just taking advantage of her "weakened" condition, when he gets aroused, he "self-medicates" with various neurotransmitters, and may quickly develop a (perhaps subconscious) desire to recreate that internal environment. So, even after a change of other circumstances, he may still use her to "trigger" a neurotransmitter/neuropeptide cascade. This is likely to continue to Mescalate. And, once her "strangeness" has resolved (baby born) he is likely to continue to use her as an excuse to escalate. Even if she is different, that can be acknowledged,and labled and he can be given a firm set of guidelines for appropriate behavior toward her. While it might be best if she forms a better relationship with him on her own, he can be trained to act appropriately with her anyway, in the same way that my dogs respect my cats, who cannot necessarily hold their own, and my zoo animals respected children and other lay people. Best, Kayce Kayce Cover, Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com > Dear people, > > It is known that sometimes male dogs become aggressive towards their > female owner, when this owner gets pregnant. > In the case I came across today, the 7 month pregnant female is greeted > every morning by a growling dog, which also pees in the house right in > front of her, hindleg lifted. The female has not much of a > relationship with the dog and has a poor command over it. The command of > the male is far better. What I do not know is, whether this aggressive > behaviour stops when the baby is born, or that the aggressive behaviour > towards the female tends to continue after birth. > If anyone can help me out here, I would appreciate this very much. I am > not aware of any literature reference, although I know of mentioning of > such case on the net. > > regards, > > Matthijs Schilder Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com From: IN%"pdezabu1@dancris.com" "pduezabou" 4-FEB-2005 09:07:18.35 To: IN%"jorighetti@optusnet.com.au" "Joanne Righetti", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"list@asc.asn.au" CC: Subj: RE: writing about dogs No, I haven't seen any studies of pronouns referring to animals, but I've often thought there should be some. However, traditional English usage favors 'it'. (Remember, too, I'm American). Psychology, in referencing human participants (no longer subjects--not politically correct) has specific guidelines laid out in American Psychological Association Publication Manual (APA). Humans are 'he or she'. One trick around this is to use plurals such as 'they' and 'them'. There are other publication manuals, but this one is also used in my state university's School of Education which is part of its College of Arts and Sciences. Philosophy alternates 'he' with 'she' for humans, but I find this very disorienting. Neither does it seem to achieve a gender neutral text which I assume is the goal. I have done two empirical studies of owners and their puppies. I found it useful to have a system of 'he and she' for my human participants and 'it' and 'they' for my puppy subjects. It was functional to have a way to reference each population with greater specificity. Let me know if you write up something about pronoun usage in veterinary literature! Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick (Duezabou) BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals & Public Policy), ABD ----- Original Message ----- From: Joanne Righetti To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca ; list@asc.asn.au Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:16 PM Subject: writing about dogs Hi All, I am writing a booklet on dogs and have had several people edit it, all with different suggestions as to how I refer to dogs eg. he/she, it. For example I say "Give your dog more exercise. Take him or her to an off-leash area." I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't it matter? (a) he/she (b) he or she (c) he (d) she (e) he alternating with she (f) it (g) all of the above Love to hear your opinions! Joanne Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviourist Sydney From: IN%"GGolab@avma.org" "Dr. Gail Golab" 4-FEB-2005 09:18:10.97 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"list@asc.asn.au" CC: Subj: RE: writing about dogs Interesting question. Style for the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association is to use "it" and "they" when referring to animals if the subject matter is general. If the subject matter relates to gender-specific concerns (e.g., theriogenology topics), our convention has been to refer to "he" or "she." Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM Assistant Director, Professional and Public Affairs Communications Division American Veterinary Medical Association -----Original Message----- From: pduezabou [mailto:pdezabu1@dancris.com] Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 9:11 AM To: Joanne Righetti; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca; list@asc.asn.au Subject: Re: writing about dogs No, I haven't seen any studies of pronouns referring to animals, but I've often thought there should be some. However, traditional English usage favors 'it'. (Remember, too, I'm American). Psychology, in referencing human participants (no longer subjects--not politically correct) has specific guidelines laid out in American Psychological Association Publication Manual (APA). Humans are 'he or she'. One trick around this is to use plurals such as 'they' and 'them'. There are other publication manuals, but this one is also used in my state university's School of Education which is part of its College of Arts and Sciences. Philosophy alternates 'he' with 'she' for humans, but I find this very disorienting. Neither does it seem to achieve a gender neutral text which I assume is the goal. I have done two empirical studies of owners and their puppies. I found it useful to have a system of 'he and she' for my human participants and 'it' and 'they' for my puppy subjects. It was functional to have a way to reference each population with greater specificity. Let me know if you write up something about pronoun usage in veterinary literature! Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick (Duezabou) BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals & Public Policy), ABD ----- Original Message ----- From: Joanne Righetti To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca ; list@asc.asn.au Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:16 PM Subject: writing about dogs Hi All, I am writing a booklet on dogs and have had several people edit it, all with different suggestions as to how I refer to dogs eg. he/she, it. For example I say "Give your dog more exercise. Take him or her to an off-leash area..." I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't it matter? (a) he/she (b) he or she (c) he (d) she (e) he alternating with she (f) it (g) all of the above Love to hear your opinions! Joanne Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviourist Sydney From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 4-FEB-2005 09:43:54.41 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: re:writing about dogs In Portuguese there is a nice twist to the question of he/she (which in Portuguese would be ele/ela), applied by liberal/radical writers (when referring to humans): el@ , the 'at' symbol supposedly combining the 'e' and the 'a''. I'm afraid this is not of much help for writing in English, other than that it might serve as inspiration for somebody to come up with a corresponding solution that works in English. Regards, Anna Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 4-FEB-2005 10:49:22.42 To: IN%"pdezabu1@dancris.com" "pduezabou", IN%"jorighetti@optusnet.com.au" "Joanne Righetti", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"list@asc.asn.au" CC: Subj: RE: writing about dogs All- I don't know how it is nowadays, but it used to be (when we were in the midst of parenting) that in the US pediatrics literature for laypeople (e. g., Dr. Benjamin Spock's books), "she" referred to the mother, "he" to the baby (regardles of the baby's gender)- -SEC ----- Original Message ----- From: pduezabou To: Joanne Righetti ; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca ; list@asc.asn.au Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 9:11 AM Subject: Re: writing about dogs No, I haven't seen any studies of pronouns referring to animals, but I've often thought there should be some. However, traditional English usage favors 'it'. (Remember, too, I'm American). Psychology, in referencing human participants (no longer subjects--not politically correct) has specific guidelines laid out in American Psychological Association Publication Manual (APA). Humans are 'he or she'. One trick around this is to use plurals such as 'they' and 'them'. There are other publication manuals, but this one is also used in my state university's School of Education which is part of its College of Arts and Sciences. Philosophy alternates 'he' with 'she' for humans, but I find this very disorienting. Neither does it seem to achieve a gender neutral text which I assume is the goal. I have done two empirical studies of owners and their puppies. I found it useful to have a system of 'he and she' for my human participants and 'it' and 'they' for my puppy subjects. It was functional to have a way to reference each population with greater specificity. Let me know if you write up something about pronoun usage in veterinary literature! Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick (Duezabou) BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals & Public Policy), ABD ----- Original Message ----- From: Joanne Righetti To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca ; list@asc.asn.au Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:16 PM Subject: writing about dogs Hi All, I am writing a booklet on dogs and have had several people edit it, all with different suggestions as to how I refer to dogs eg. he/she, it. For example I say "Give your dog more exercise. Take him or her to an off-leash area." I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't it matter? (a) he/she (b) he or she (c) he (d) she (e) he alternating with she (f) it (g) all of the above Love to hear your opinions! Joanne Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviourist Sydney From: IN%"dorrit.ltd@gmx.de" "Dorit Albertsen" 4-FEB-2005 12:19:58.50 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: re:writing about dogs Any animal with an identity is always her or him. Isn't it?! From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 4-FEB-2005 12:52:16.64 To: IN%"jorighetti@optusnet.com.au" "Joanne Righetti", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"list@asc.asn.au" CC: Subj: RE: writing about dogs I typically delete without reading messages with "dog" in the title - and have done with most of the messages posted following the one below. But I did notice some of the responses dealing with he/she in terms of dogs. I would suggest that anyone writing a book about dogs might want to point out that a "dog" was originally, and maybe -at least technically - is still, a male! (see below) It is the common or public use of the word that has extended the term "dog" to now include both genders - similar to "cow" now being used by the public, and some popular press writers, to be inclusive of all sexes and age groups of cattle (bulls, steers, cows, heifers, calves, etc.) And my apologies if someone else has previously covered this same topic. Best regards to all. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------ From: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=dog Main Entry: DOG Pronunciation: 'dog, 'dag Function: noun Usage: often attributive Etymology: Middle English, from Old English docga 1 a : CANID; especially : a highly variable domestic mammal (Canis familiaris) closely related to the common wolf (Canis lupus) b : a male dog; also : a male usually carnivorous mammal 2 a : a worthless person b : FELLOW, CHAP ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------ -----Original Message----- From: Joanne Righetti [mailto:jorighetti@optusnet.com.au] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 11:16 PM To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca; list@asc.asn.au Subject: writing about dogs Hi All, I am writing a booklet on dogs and have had several people edit it, all with different suggestions as to how I refer to dogs eg. he/she, it. For example I say "Give your dog more exercise. Take him or her to an off-leash area." I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't it matter? (a) he/she (b) he or she (c) he (d) she (e) he alternating with she (f) it (g) all of the above Love to hear your opinions! Joanne Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviourist Sydney From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 4-FEB-2005 13:30:13.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: writing about dogs What a great question! Language usage indicates the conceptual framework around the things being named. The different examples we have been getting here probably reflect a changing viewpoint about animals, as well as the flexibility and evolution of language. For example, in Finland, both animals and people are referred to as "it," reflecting a simplifying mechanism in the language itself. But English, on the other hand, is a very large and complex language (perhaps more so than needed?) and reflects changing cultural values, and so we have seen a great deal of variety in the responses, reflecting that variety and plasticity of the language and the cultures that use it. Names say a lot. For example, in times or areas where there was a large infant mortality, it is a common practice to not name a new baby until it has made it through the first year or so--prior to that, the baby was just referred to as "the baby". This reflects a practical, if somber, solution to the emotional problem of attachment and intimacy to a family member who might not survive long. The example for Benjamin Spock's book reflects the cultural values of the time that he wrote it: practically all child care giving then was done by women, thus "she" for parent is used throughout (and I suspect that "he" was used for the child for both simplicity and perhaps also to reflect the relative status of child-bearing women, that being even lower than their child). However, in more modern child-rearing books, the sex of the care-giver is not assumed to be female and the male pronoun is also used and likewise all babies are not referred to as boys. I noticed an interesting linguistic thing when I lived in Japan. In the Japanese language and culture, it is not polite to refer to a person without using an honorific. The unisex Mr. or Mrs. equivalent is -San. So you refer to people as Ito-san, Aoki-san etc. Last name, plus -san. Babies and young children are all referred to as first name plus Chan, e.g.: Kyoko-Chan. As they get older, then only girls are called Chan and boys are called Kun: e.g. Masaki-Kun. Chan and Kun are used as honorifics until they enter adulthood. Pets also get an honorific. Cats and small dogs are referred to as though they were young children: for example, Kiki-Chan. I asked once why adult pets were still called by the child-like honorific and was told that this was because the pet was always needing to be cared for like a child and so was always considered a child in the family. However, big dogs were given no honorific at all. It would be serious bad manners to refer to a person without using an honorific, so when I asked about this, I was told that many people feared big dogs because of their perceived aggressiveness and so they were not given the same consideration as small dogs. The difference in honorifics was reflected in a difference in care and welfare--dogs with the -Chan honorific were quite pampered and well cared for, but large dogs frequently lived outdoors on short chains and if found running loose, were brutally killed with a minimum of waiting time at the pounds (There was no system of re-homing dogs from the pounds when I lived there a decade ago. Hopefully this is changing). So the way in which the dogs were referred to in the language was reflected in the care and consideration they received. I am also reminded of the great Dr. Seuss children's book "Horton Hears a Who" where Horton the elephant, discovers a civilization living on a dust mote and maintains "A person is a person no matter how small." Gosh, I read that to my children all the time and the dust-mote creatures were definitely "whos." I find it interesting that the grammar checker on my word processor on my computer will indicate a mistake if I refer to an animal as a "who." If I write "the horse who ran across the field," the "who" will be highlighted by the program as incorrect while "the horse that ran across the field" will be indicated as correct. When I first started writing for the public, I was very conscious of the need to be grammatically correct and so animals were "its" and "thats." Grammatical rules change as cultures evolve. And so too is my writing, because more recently I have started to ignore the grammar checker and make animals whos, hims, hers and thems. I am not absolute in my usage; it is evolving too. I don't think there is any absolute right or wrong with regard to this now. So too the English language is always evolving and with respect to pronouns and animals, it is very interesting to consider what is driving the change and what cultural changes that will then evoke. Thanks Joanne for a great question. Lastly, thanks Robin (not a girl) Walker for a great laugh when I read your post on this. It took me a while to figure out "hoozagoogeel." Those of you non-native English speakers might ask him for a translation, if this one is still puzzling you.... Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS Moscow, ID USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Stanley Curtis To: pduezabou ; Joanne Righetti ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; list@asc.asn.au Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 8:48 AM Subject: [Spam] Re: writing about dogs All- I don't know how it is nowadays, but it used to be (when we were in the midst of parenting) that in the US pediatrics literature for laypeople (e. g., Dr. Benjamin Spock's books), "she" referred to the mother, "he" to the baby (regardles of the baby's gender)- -SEC ----- Original Message ----- From: pduezabou To: Joanne Righetti ; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca ; list@asc.asn.au Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 9:11 AM Subject: Re: writing about dogs No, I haven't seen any studies of pronouns referring to animals, but I've often thought there should be some. However, traditional English usage favors 'it'. (Remember, too, I'm American). Psychology, in referencing human participants (no longer subjects--not politically correct) has specific guidelines laid out in American Psychological Association Publication Manual (APA). Humans are 'he or she'. One trick around this is to use plurals such as 'they' and 'them'. There are other publication manuals, but this one is also used in my state university's School of Education which is part of its College of Arts and Sciences. Philosophy alternates 'he' with 'she' for humans, but I find this very disorienting. Neither does it seem to achieve a gender neutral text which I assume is the goal. I have done two empirical studies of owners and their puppies. I found it useful to have a system of 'he and she' for my human participants and 'it' and 'they' for my puppy subjects. It was functional to have a way to reference each population with greater specificity. Let me know if you write up something about pronoun usage in veterinary literature! Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick (Duezabou) BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals & Public Policy), ABD ----- Original Message ----- From: Joanne Righetti To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca ; list@asc.asn.au Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:16 PM Subject: writing about dogs Hi All, I am writing a booklet on dogs and have had several people edit it, all with different suggestions as to how I refer to dogs eg. he/she, it. For example I say "Give your dog more exercise. Take him or her to an off-leash area." I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't it matter? (a) he/she (b) he or she (c) he (d) she (e) he alternating with she (f) it (g) all of the above Love to hear your opinions! Joanne Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviourist Sydney From: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "Johanna =?UNKNOWN?Q?V=E4is=E4nen?=" 4-FEB-2005 14:07:31.46 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash Dear all, I have to warn you all that I am not on a happy mood while witing this. So please, take that into an account before starting to hate me. You know guys, throung this list a way too many posts which do not have any relevance for applied ethology is being posted. The most annoyng of all are all the trash postings concerning dogs. Just like Ray, I have developed a habit to delete all messages with a dog in the title without even bothering to check if the post might tryly have some relevance. One might think now that I am not interested in dogs. Wrong. I am. I am a breeder, I have two bitches and one more coming very soon. I am a qualified trained (according to finnish standards) in agility and I have competed many years in obedience, agility and shows and coached other people in agility both in finland and sweden. And I find this dog stuff flooding through this list below all standards. It is not only dog messages which are many times pure trash. People also post other off topic entertainment on this list. Due to this, I delete automatically those messages which have a dodgy (not clearly formulated) title which does not presicely summarise the topic's relevance for applied ethology research. Consequently, I deleted the message that came through ISAE list two days ago and was titled rush work. Since I have had difficulties to find funding to travel to the conference in Japan I have not been visiting that website very often but relied ISAE list on deadlines etc. Well, that message I deleted without reading happened to be a reminder of the abstract deadline. And the deadline was today. If I had not deleted that message I would have had a whole two days to discuss with my boss and ask his opinnion about sending an abstract and had had plenty of time to possibly write and submit that abstract without any problems. From now on I would wish that everybody writing on this list would title his/her topic in a clear and prompt manner so that the title states what relevance the post has for applied ethology as a science and if none, please do not post al all. I mean that the world is full of chatrooms etc. which would suit much better for many of these discussions some people have posted here. I also think that most of the dog trash posted here has a very debilitating effect on the actual possibility of people to discuss and learn about the research work on dog ethology. Best wishes Johanna _______________________________________________________ Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Linköping SE-581 83 Linköping Sweden Phone: +44-13-281100 Mobile: +358-440-172428 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se ________________________________________________________ From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 4-FEB-2005 14:17:05.17 To: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Johanna_V=E4is=E4nen?=", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash Johanna V- In any pluralistic group of thinking people, what's trash and what's = golden is determined by the proverbial eye of the beholder- ({;-}) = I suppose there will be many topics in any free, general exchange such = as this that any one person will not find interesting or pertinent to = one's own life and career- Moreover, sometimes it is surprising the = special insight one gains from a bit of self-described "trash"- -Stanley Curtis ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Johanna V=E4is=E4nen=20 To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca=20 Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 2:07 PM Subject: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash Dear all, I have to warn you all that I am not on a happy mood while witing = this. So please, take that into an account before starting to hate me. You know guys, throung this list a way too many posts which do not = have any relevance for applied ethology is being posted. The most = annoyng of all are all the trash postings concerning dogs. Just like = Ray, I have developed a habit to delete all messages with a dog in the = title without even bothering to check if the post might tryly have some = relevance. One might think now that I am not interested in dogs. Wrong. = I am. I am a breeder, I have two bitches and one more coming very soon. = I am a qualified trained (according to finnish standards) in agility and = I have competed many years in obedience, agility and shows and coached = other people in agility both in finland and sweden. And I find this dog = stuff flooding through this list below all standards. It is not only dog = messages which are many times pure trash.=20 People also post other off topic entertainment on this list. Due to = this, I delete automatically those messages which have a dodgy (not = clearly formulated) title which does not presicely summarise the topic's = relevance for applied ethology research. Consequently, I deleted the = message that came through ISAE list two days ago and was titled rush = work. Since I have had difficulties to find funding to travel to the = conference in Japan I have not been visiting that website very often but = relied ISAE list on deadlines etc. Well, that message I deleted without = reading happened to be a reminder of the abstract deadline. And the = deadline was today. If I had not deleted that message I would have had a = whole two days to discuss with my boss and ask his opinnion about = sending an abstract and had had plenty of time to possibly write and = submit that abstract without any problems.=20 From now on I would wish that everybody writing on this list would = title his/her topic in a clear and prompt manner so that the title = states what relevance the post has for applied ethology as a science and = if none, please do not post al all. I mean that the world is full of = chatrooms etc. which would suit much better for many of these = discussions some people have posted here. I also think that most of the = dog trash posted here has a very debilitating effect on the actual = possibility of people to discuss and learn about the research work on = dog ethology.=20 Best wishes Johanna=20 _______________________________________________________ Johanna V=E4is=E4nen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Link=F6ping SE-581 83 Link=F6ping Sweden Phone: +44-13-281100 Mobile: +358-440-172428=20 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se=20 ________________________________________________________ From: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "Johanna =?UNKNOWN?Q?V=E4is=E4nen?=" 4-FEB-2005 14:36:34.03 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fwd: Re: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash >> Moreover, sometimes it is surprising the special insight one gains from >> a bit of self-described "trash"- > >That certainly is true considering one has time to consume for reading or >otherwise studying that self-described trash ;) >cheers, >johanna > >> >>-Stanley Curtis >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: Johanna Väisänen >>To: >>Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca >>Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 2:07 PM >>Subject: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash >>Dear all, >>I have to warn you all that I am not on a happy mood while witing this. >>So please, take that into an account before starting to hate me. >>You know guys, throung this list a way too many posts which do not have >>any relevance for applied ethology is being posted. The most annoyng of >>all are all the trash postings concerning dogs. Just like Ray, I have >>developed a habit to delete all messages with a dog in the title without >>even bothering to check if the post might tryly have some relevance. One >>might think now that I am not interested in dogs. Wrong. I am. I am a >>breeder, I have two bitches and one more coming very soon. I am a >>qualified trained (according to finnish standards) in agility and I have >>competed many years in obedience, agility and shows and coached other >>people in agility both in finland and sweden. And I find this dog stuff >>flooding through this list below all standards. It is not only dog >>messages which are many times pure trash. >>People also post other off topic entertainment on this list. Due to this, >>I delete automatically those messages which have a dodgy (not clearly >>formulated) title which does not presicely summarise the topic's >>relevance for applied ethology research. Consequently, I deleted the >>message that came through ISAE list two days ago and was titled rush >>work. Since I have had difficulties to find funding to travel to the >>conference in Japan I have not been visiting that website very often but >>relied ISAE list on deadlines etc. Well, that message I deleted without >>reading happened to be a reminder of the abstract deadline. And the >>deadline was today. If I had not deleted that message I would have had a >>whole two days to discuss with my boss and ask his opinnion about sending >>an abstract and had had plenty of time to possibly write and submit that >>abstract without any problems. >> From now on I would wish that everybody writing on this list would title >> his/her topic in a clear and prompt manner so that the title states what >> relevance the post has for applied ethology as a science and if none, >> please do not post al all. I mean that the world is full of chatrooms >> etc. which would suit much better for many of these discussions some >> people have posted here. I also think that most of the dog trash posted >> here has a very debilitating effect on the actual possibility of people >> to discuss and learn about the research work on dog ethology. >>Best wishes >>Johanna >>_______________________________________________________ >>Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology >>Department of Biology, IFM >>University of Linköping >>SE-581 83 Linköping >>Sweden >>Phone: +44-13-281100 >>Mobile: +358-440-172428 >> >>Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se >> >>________________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >>Block Spam Emails - Click here! >> _______________________________________________________ Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Linköping SE-581 83 Linköping Sweden Phone: +44-13-282611 Mobile: +358-440-172428 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se ________________________________________________________ From: IN%"coape@nildram.co.uk" "Robin Walker" 4-FEB-2005 14:44:24.12 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "'Stanley Curtis'", IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Johanna_V=E4is=E4nen'?=", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash Please don=92t jump Joanna =96 get a light box (no get six. Watch = =93Fargo=94 (the Cohen movie) and laugh at yourself. =20 Robin =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Johanna V=E4is=E4nen =20 To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca=20 Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 2:07 PM Subject: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash =20 Dear all, I have to warn you all that I am not on a happy mood while witing this. So please, take that into an account before starting to hate me. You know guys, throung this list a way too many posts which do not have any relevance for applied ethology is being posted. The most annoyng of all are all the trash postings concerning dogs. Just like Ray, I have developed a habit to delete all messages with a dog in the title without even bothering to check if the post might tryly have some relevance. One might think now that I am not interested in dogs. Wrong. I am. I am a breeder, I have two bitches and one more coming very soon. I am a qualified trained (according to finnish standards) in agility and I have competed many years in obedience, agility and shows and coached other people in agility both in finland and sweden. And I find this dog stuff flooding through this list below all standards. It is not only dog messages which are many times pure trash.=20 People also post other off topic entertainment on this list. Due to this, I delete automatically those messages which have a dodgy (not clearly formulated) title which does not presicely summarise the topic's relevance for applied ethology research. Consequently, I deleted the message that came through ISAE list two days ago and was titled rush work. Since I have had difficulties to find funding to travel to the conference in Japan I have not been visiting that website very often but relied ISAE list on deadlines etc. Well, that message I deleted without reading happened to be a reminder of the abstract deadline. And the deadline was today. If I had not deleted that message I would have had a whole two days to discuss with my boss and ask his opinnion about sending an abstract and had had plenty of time to possibly write and submit that abstract without any problems.=20 From now on I would wish that everybody writing on this list would title his/her topic in a clear and prompt manner so that the title states what relevance the post has for applied ethology as a science and if none, please do not post al all. I mean that the world is full of chatrooms etc. which would suit much better for many of these discussions some people have posted here. I also think that most of the dog trash posted here has a very debilitating effect on the actual possibility of people to discuss and learn about the research work on dog ethology.=20 Best wishes Johanna=20 _______________________________________________________ Johanna V=E4is=E4nen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Link=F6ping SE-581 83 Link=F6ping Sweden Phone: +44-13-281100 Mobile: +358-440-172428=20 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se =20 ________________________________________________________ =20 _____ =20 =20 Block Spam Emails - Click here! From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 4-FEB-2005 14:54:11.02 To: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Johanna_V=E4is=E4nen?=", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re:Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash Johanna, I am sorry that you considered my post about the attitudes people have = about animals and thus the welfare those animals receive and how this = relates to the language we use to refer to animals, to be spam and = therefore of no value. Topics frequently evolve on a discussion list, = as engaging people in interesting discussions is one of the primary = purposes, and so the subject line titles can sometimes not identify the = current concept in a thread, but rather where it started. If you simply = delete them without ever glancing at their content, you may miss a new = concept that has evolved of the first question. Language is frequently used to de-humanize other races and people = considered of lower value. I don't know examples of this in Swedish, = but in American English, such titles as savage, nigger, and spik have = been used to denote people not worthy of full legitimacy. Native Indian = peoples were frequently referred to as "its" during the grim time in our = history when genocide was being directed against them. Thus how language usage changes in how we refer to animals is of = interest to me. Maybe this is not strict Ethology in a biological = sense, but certainly does reflect our ability to conduct research and = educate the public about welfare issues. Language is the framework for = our concepts--a very human ethological thing, I would think. =20 I am sorry if you feel that considering how people conceptualize and = treat animals and the language that reflects that to be an = inconsequential issue. I do not and so I do think is a good thing that = there are more than one set of opinions on this list. My sympathies for you losing a valuable reminder about an abstract = deadline. That does sound frustrating. Janice=20 Janice Willard, DVM, MS Moscow, ID USA ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Johanna V=E4is=E4nen=20 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca=20 Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 12:07 PM Subject: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash Dear all, I have to warn you all that I am not on a happy mood while witing = this. So please, take that into an account before starting to hate me. You know guys, throung this list a way too many posts which do not = have any relevance for applied ethology is being posted. The most = annoyng of all are all the trash postings concerning dogs. Just like = Ray, I have developed a habit to delete all messages with a dog in the = title without even bothering to check if the post might tryly have some = relevance. One might think now that I am not interested in dogs. Wrong. = I am. I am a breeder, I have two bitches and one more coming very soon. = I am a qualified trained (according to finnish standards) in agility and = I have competed many years in obedience, agility and shows and coached = other people in agility both in finland and sweden. And I find this dog = stuff flooding through this list below all standards. It is not only dog = messages which are many times pure trash.=20 People also post other off topic entertainment on this list. Due to = this, I delete automatically those messages which have a dodgy (not = clearly formulated) title which does not presicely summarise the topic's = relevance for applied ethology research. Consequently, I deleted the = message that came through ISAE list two days ago and was titled rush = work. Since I have had difficulties to find funding to travel to the = conference in Japan I have not been visiting that website very often but = relied ISAE list on deadlines etc. Well, that message I deleted without = reading happened to be a reminder of the abstract deadline. And the = deadline was today. If I had not deleted that message I would have had a = whole two days to discuss with my boss and ask his opinnion about = sending an abstract and had had plenty of time to possibly write and = submit that abstract without any problems.=20 From now on I would wish that everybody writing on this list would = title his/her topic in a clear and prompt manner so that the title = states what relevance the post has for applied ethology as a science and = if none, please do not post al all. I mean that the world is full of = chatrooms etc. which would suit much better for many of these = discussions some people have posted here. I also think that most of the = dog trash posted here has a very debilitating effect on the actual = possibility of people to discuss and learn about the research work on = dog ethology.=20 Best wishes Johanna=20 _______________________________________________________ Johanna V=E4is=E4nen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Link=F6ping SE-581 83 Link=F6ping Sweden Phone: +44-13-281100 Mobile: +358-440-172428=20 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se=20 ________________________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005 From: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "Johanna =?UNKNOWN?Q?V=E4is=E4nen?=" 4-FEB-2005 15:04:58.14 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fwd: Re:Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash >Dear Janice, >Your post had nothing to do with my outburst. The miss of the abstract >deadline did. In my mail, I referred to many previous postings on this >list, not this particular one yesterday. Otherwise I had not participated >with my opinnion ;). From a finnish perspective I still prefer it! :) >I am sorry if you got a wrong impression! Apologies! > >And, Robin Walker, you can save us from your off the wall stupidities. I >think we have got enough of them in our mailboxes by now. > >Best wishes >Johanna > >At 21:53 2005-02-04, you wrote: >>Johanna, >>I am sorry that you considered my post about the attitudes people have >>about animals and thus the welfare those animals receive and how this >>relates to the language we use to refer to animals, to be spam and >>therefore of no value. Topics frequently evolve on a discussion list, as >>engaging people in interesting discussions is one of the primary >>purposes, and so the subject line titles can sometimes not identify the >>current concept in a thread, but rather where it started. If you simply >>delete them without ever glancing at their content, you may miss a new >>concept that has evolved of the first question. >> >>Language is frequently used to de-humanize other races and people >>considered of lower value. I don't know examples of this in Swedish, but >>in American English, such titles as savage, nigger, and spik have been >>used to denote people not worthy of full legitimacy. Native Indian >>peoples were frequently referred to as "its" during the grim time in our >>history when genocide was being directed against them. >> >>Thus how language usage changes in how we refer to animals is of interest >>to me. Maybe this is not strict Ethology in a biological sense, but >>certainly does reflect our ability to conduct research and educate the >>public about welfare issues. Language is the framework for our >>concepts--a very human ethological thing, I would think. >> >>I am sorry if you feel that considering how people conceptualize and >>treat animals and the language that reflects that to be an >>inconsequential issue. I do not and so I do think is a good thing that >>there are more than one set of opinions on this list. >> >>My sympathies for you losing a valuable reminder about an abstract >>deadline. That does sound frustrating. >> >>Janice >> >>Janice Willard, DVM, MS >>Moscow, ID USA >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: Johanna Väisänen >>To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >>Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 12:07 PM >>Subject: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash >>Dear all, >>I have to warn you all that I am not on a happy mood while witing this. >>So please, take that into an account before starting to hate me. >>You know guys, throung this list a way too many posts which do not have >>any relevance for applied ethology is being posted. The most annoyng of >>all are all the trash postings concerning dogs. Just like Ray, I have >>developed a habit to delete all messages with a dog in the title without >>even bothering to check if the post might tryly have some relevance. One >>might think now that I am not interested in dogs. Wrong. I am. I am a >>breeder, I have two bitches and one more coming very soon. I am a >>qualified trained (according to finnish standards) in agility and I have >>competed many years in obedience, agility and shows and coached other >>people in agility both in finland and sweden. And I find this dog stuff >>flooding through this list below all standards. It is not only dog >>messages which are many times pure trash. >> >>People also post other off topic entertainment on this list. Due to this, >>I delete automatically those messages which have a dodgy (not clearly >>formulated) title which does not presicely summarise the topic's >>relevance for applied ethology research. Consequently, I deleted the >>message that came through ISAE list two days ago and was titled rush >>work. Since I have had difficulties to find funding to travel to the >>conference in Japan I have not been visiting that website very often but >>relied ISAE list on deadlines etc. Well, that message I deleted without >>reading happened to be a reminder of the abstract deadline. And the >>deadline was today. If I had not deleted that message I would have had a >>whole two days to discuss with my boss and ask his opinnion about sending >>an abstract and had had plenty of time to possibly write and submit that >>abstract without any problems. >> From now on I would wish that everybody writing on this list would title >> his/her topic in a clear and prompt manner so that the title states what >> relevance the post has for applied ethology as a science and if none, >> please do not post al all. I mean that the world is full of chatrooms >> etc. which would suit much better for many of these discussions some >> people have posted here. I also think that most of the dog trash posted >> here has a very debilitating effect on the actual possibility of people >> to discuss and learn about the research work on dog ethology. >>Best wishes >>Johanna >>_______________________________________________________ >>Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology >>Department of Biology, IFM >>University of Linköping >>SE-581 83 Linköping >>Sweden >>Phone: +44-13-281100 >>Mobile: +358-440-172428 >> >>Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se >> >>________________________________________________________ >> >> >>---------- >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005 >> >>No virus found in this outgoing message. >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005 _______________________________________________________ Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Linköping SE-581 83 Linköping Sweden Phone: +44-13-282611 Mobile: +358-440-172428 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se ________________________________________________________ From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 4-FEB-2005 17:42:48.22 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: writing about dogs I don't suppose I can say "None of the above" ? :-( We really do need a non-gender specific third person singular for living things, don't we. I suppose I prefer 'he/she' or 'it' or alternating . Or 's/he' but then you still have to say him/her (or her/him :-) Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't it matter? (a) he/she (b) he or she (c) he (d) she (e) he alternating with she (f) it (g) all of the above Love to hear your opinions! Joanne From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 4-FEB-2005 20:09:10.85 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash From: Johanna V=E4is=E4nen=20 Consequently, I deleted the message that came through ISAE list two days = ago and was titled rush work. Since I have had difficulties to find = funding to travel to the conference in Japan I have not been visiting = that website very often but relied ISAE list on deadlines etc. Well, = that message I deleted without reading happened to be a reminder of the = abstract deadline. And the deadline was today. If I had not deleted that = message I would have had a whole two days to discuss with my boss and = ask his opinnion about sending an abstract and had had plenty of time to = possibly write and submit that abstract without any problems.=20 margory cohen: The forum is not responsible for your email mistake. We all set up our email systems with folders and filters and in any = forum in which any of us participate, one knows the styles and patterns = of the forum. You made a mistake and vent at the group. I think inappropriate vents and bad manners are worse 'spams' in the = degrees of rating such things. What is more concern to me however is a dangerous arrogance that can = slip in to a group dedicated to the study of behaviours. The = revelations are veritably at times shocking. -margory cohen San Francisco From: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "Johanna =?UNKNOWN?Q?V=E4is=E4nen?=" 4-FEB-2005 20:22:22.97 To: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash >The forum is not responsible for your email mistake. I did not claim that. But certainly I am, since I have been lazy enough myself to find out how to unsubscribe from this list. Could anybody tell me how to do that? When I first subscribed this list I made a mistake by thinking this was concentreated on applied ethology and that would be the only topic of disscussion. Well, as it turned out. I was very wrong. Johanna _______________________________________________________ Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Linköping SE-581 83 Linköping Sweden Phone: +44-13-282611 Mobile: +358-440-172428 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se ________________________________________________________ From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 4-FEB-2005 20:53:46.81 To: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Johanna_V=E4is=E4nen?=", IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash Johanna, I just happened to see that you were concerned about possibly missing the ISAE abstract deadline. Below I have clipped in a message that Sato sent out which I read to indicate that abstracts will be accepted until sometime next week - but the wording does exactly give a definite deadline. And Johanna, I know you are frustrated with the near senseless ramblings from some persons writing about trivial dog curiosities and who have no idea about the meaning of the tem ethology, but I hope you will hang in there. Your work is cutting edge and you are darn good at it. I hope you will submit the abstract and try to overlook the other nonsense. Hope to see you in Japan Ray --------------------------------------- On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 Shusuke SATO wrote : >Announcement from the Local Organizing Committee >39th International Congress of ISAE > >Deadline of Abstract Submission (4th February) is approaching. >Could you submit your abstract via the web-site (http://www.ics-inc.co.jp/isae2005/) as soon as possible, please ? >We are expecting all of you to come to and enjoy Japan. > >Online Abstract Submission System will work further a few days in the next week. >So it is possible for you to put submissin off several days. > >Thank you > >Shusuke SATO From: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" 4-FEB-2005 21:03:14.83 To: CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash I wonder if you're aware of just how much like a petulant child you are sounding. You can find the instructions for unsubbing at: http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/ One would think that a PhD student would be able to find this information themselves. Cissy Johanna Väisänen wrote: >> >> >> The forum is not responsible for your email mistake. > > > I did not claim that. But certainly I am, since I have been lazy enough > myself to find out how to unsubscribe from this list. > Could anybody tell me how to do that? When I first subscribed this list > I made a mistake by thinking this was concentreated on applied ethology > and that would be the only topic of disscussion. Well, as it turned out. > I was very wrong. From: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "Johanna =?UNKNOWN?Q?V=E4is=E4nen?=" 4-FEB-2005 21:25:48.24 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash >Hi, > >Thanks for this! I really hope I will get a second chance concerning the >deadline. >It looks like I have got the unsubscribing info now so it might be time to >say good bye to those list members who did not get mad at me because of my >mails. > >Best Wishes, >Johanna > >At 03:53 2005-02-05, you wrote: >>Johanna, >> >>I just happened to see that you were concerned about possibly missing the >>ISAE abstract deadline. Below I have clipped in a message that Sato sent >>out which I read to indicate that abstracts will be accepted until >>sometime next week - but the wording does exactly give a definite >>deadline. And Johanna, I know you are frustrated with the near senseless >>ramblings from some persons writing about trivial dog curiosities and who >>have no idea about the meaning of the tem ethology, but I hope you will >>hang in there. Your work is cutting edge and you are darn good at it. I >>hope you will submit the abstract and try to overlook the other nonsense. >> >>Hope to see you in Japan >> >>Ray >>--------------------------------------- >> >>On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 Shusuke SATO wrote : >> >Announcement from the Local Organizing Committee >> >39th International Congress of ISAE >> > >> >Deadline of Abstract Submission (4th February) is approaching. >> >Could you submit your abstract via the web-site >> (http://www.ics-inc.co.jp/isae2005/) as soon as possible, please ? >> >We are expecting all of you to come to and enjoy Japan. >> > >> >Online Abstract Submission System will work further a few days in the >> next week. >> >So it is possible for you to put submissin off several days. >> > >> >Thank you >> > >> >Shusuke SATO >> >> >>------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________________ Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Linköping SE-581 83 Linköping Sweden Phone: +44-13-282611 Mobile: +358-440-172428 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se ________________________________________________________ From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 4-FEB-2005 22:17:41.71 To: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Johanna_V=E4is=E4nen?=", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hey everybody, take a deep breath, please Hey everybody,.let's all take a deep breath. Johanna, I am sorry that I responded the way I did to your e-mail. I = was unnecessarily negative--I had just spent time that I should not have = wasted on, what I thought was an interesting thing to add to the = discussion, (including your comment about pronouns in the Finnish = language), and was surprised and hurt when you classified it as spam. = Please chalk this up to my having too much to do, not enough sleep and = my worries about my child who has been sick for the last 3 weeks and = does not appear to be improving. =20 We forget, sometimes that we are all real people here, all of us with = real lives, real problems and real feelings that can get hurt. A = community of scientists is still a community. I also think that Robin had a point when he mentioned needing light = therapy--I think all of us here in the northern hemisphere get short = tempered at the end of a long winter. At least I know that I do. =20 Johanna, you have much better things to do with your time right now than = worry about this list--you have an abstract to complete so that you can = present your research. The rest of us also have better things to do = with our time than jumping on you, when you were obviously frustrated = and distraught. We all have real problems and real feelings. And while many would feel that this list would be better if it returned = to the more intellectual discussions of earlier years, I think it would = even be better if we returned to the civility that used to be more = common on this list. And today, I have been just as guilty of = over-reacting and being impolite, for which I apologize to the list in = general and Johanna specifically. So let's all of us just chill out, okay? =20 Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS Moscow, ID USA =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Johanna V=E4is=E4nen=20 To: margory cohen ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca=20 Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 6:21 PM Subject: Re: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash =20 The forum is not responsible for your email mistake. I did not claim that. But certainly I am, since I have been lazy = enough myself to find out how to unsubscribe from this list.=20 Could anybody tell me how to do that? When I first subscribed this = list I made a mistake by thinking this was concentreated on applied = ethology and that would be the only topic of disscussion. Well, as it = turned out. I was very wrong. Johanna=20 _______________________________________________________ Johanna V=E4is=E4nen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Link=F6ping SE-581 83 Link=F6ping Sweden Phone: +44-13-282611 Mobile: +358-440-172428=20 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se=20 ________________________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005 From: IN%"D.Lee@mcri.ac.uk" "Diane Lee" 5-FEB-2005 05:48:14.09 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: What's trash? I for one think that the way we refer to animals that we interact with is VERY relevant to the field of applied ethology. Language is a poweful tool, is it not? I therefore did not consider any of the posts referring to the gender of dogs as trash *or* spam. I often find (and I know that this is not a universal trait) that those people who refer to animals as 'its' also treat their animals very differently to others - not necessarily badly, just different. For instance I have friends who use 'it' that do not credit animals with any great degree of intelligence. Nor do they believe them to show emotions. As a consequence they interact very differently with animals than I do. This I believe is a vital part of Applied Ethology. Just my humble opinion, but there you go. Oh and I thought Robin's posts were very amusing (and she's been listening in on me and my dog!). If only more people took life less seriously. One of my resolutions this year is to live life like I'm 10 again. So far, I'm having a ball :o) Diane -----Original Message----- From: Janice Willard [mailto:jwillard@turbonet.com] Sent: 05 February 2005 04:17 To: Johanna Väisänen; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Hey everybody, take a deep breath, please Hey everybody,.let's all take a deep breath. Johanna, I am sorry that I responded the way I did to your e-mail. I was unnecessarily negative--I had just spent time that I should not have wasted on, what I thought was an interesting thing to add to the discussion, (including your comment about pronouns in the Finnish language), and was surprised and hurt when you classified it as spam. Please chalk this up to my having too much to do, not enough sleep and my worries about my child who has been sick for the last 3 weeks and does not appear to be improving. We forget, sometimes that we are all real people here, all of us with real lives, real problems and real feelings that can get hurt. A community of scientists is still a community. I also think that Robin had a point when he mentioned needing light therapy--I think all of us here in the northern hemisphere get short tempered at the end of a long winter. At least I know that I do. Johanna, you have much better things to do with your time right now than worry about this list--you have an abstract to complete so that you can present your research. The rest of us also have better things to do with our time than jumping on you, when you were obviously frustrated and distraught. We all have real problems and real feelings. And while many would feel that this list would be better if it returned to the more intellectual discussions of earlier years, I think it would even be better if we returned to the civility that used to be more common on this list. And today, I have been just as guilty of over-reacting and being impolite, for which I apologize to the list in general and Johanna specifically. So let's all of us just chill out, okay? Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS Moscow, ID USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Johanna Väisänen To: margory cohen ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 6:21 PM Subject: Re: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash The forum is not responsible for your email mistake. I did not claim that. But certainly I am, since I have been lazy enough myself to find out how to unsubscribe from this list. Could anybody tell me how to do that? When I first subscribed this list I made a mistake by thinking this was concentreated on applied ethology and that would be the only topic of disscussion. Well, as it turned out. I was very wrong. Johanna _______________________________________________________ Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Linköping SE-581 83 Linköping Sweden Phone: +44-13-282611 Mobile: +358-440-172428 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se ________________________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005 From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 5-FEB-2005 06:39:17.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Need help from an Ethologist ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 5-FEB-2005 06:50:45.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Help from an ethologist, please For you who have shown interest is me and my coyotes. I have had a horrible event occur here. My beautiful Amber was shot in the eye. See my website www.coyoterescue.org My Amber does not like me, now. She is threatening me. I need to know how to get her past this, if ever. I have started by just sitting outside her pen for short times. I, of course am continuing to feed her, but she is growling at me when I do. I'm concerned that she may take the food as a reward for growling. Erich doesn't think so. I would like other feed back from ethologists who might know about coyote or wolf behavior. I am afraid that I have lost my loving, well socialized, coyote. To top it off, she is in estrus and is territorial from that. CeAnn ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From: IN%"Wendy@southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk" "WendyHanson" 5-FEB-2005 07:25:35.94 To: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Help from an ethologist, please I think it is unlikely that Amber will see the food as a reward for growling. More likely that through classical conditioning she will associate you with the food and that may help overcome her fears. Therefore I would throw food into her frequently whilst sitting there, avoiding eye contact. I don't see there is much else you can do apart from just sitting and doing nothing and hoping she will habituate. Wendy Wendy Hanson Dip. ACP{NOCN} Dip.Nutri.Med{RC} www.southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cecilia Lambert" To: Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 12:50 PM Subject: Help from an ethologist, please > For you who have shown interest is me and my coyotes. > I have had a horrible event occur here. > My beautiful Amber was shot in the eye. See my > website www.coyoterescue.org > My Amber does not like me, now. She is threatening > me. I need to know how to get her past this, if ever. > I have started by just sitting outside her pen for > short times. I, of course am continuing to feed her, > but she is growling at me when I do. I'm concerned > that she may take the food as a reward for growling. > Erich doesn't think so. I would like other feed back > from ethologists who might know about coyote or wolf > behavior. I am afraid that I have lost my loving, > well socialized, coyote. > To top it off, she is in estrus and is territorial > from that. > CeAnn > > > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.coyoterescue.org > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 5-FEB-2005 07:57:21.21 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Trash versus Ethology " I for one think that the way we refer to animals that we interact with is VERY relevant to the field of applied ethology. Language is a poweful tool, is it not? I therefore did not consider any of the posts referring to the gender of dogs as trash *or* spam. I often find (and I know that this is not a universal trait) that those people who refer to animals as 'its' also treat their animals very differently to others - not necessarily badly, just different. " ----------------------- Dear All, Regarding the above and related recent postings: Ethology is the study of behavior as an adaptive trait. This means that knowledge of evolutionary biology is first and foremost a requirement for one to understanding ethology. Applied ethology has to do with the application of ethologically-based knowledge to questions about animals that fall under the influence of humans is some significant way. Applied ethology is NOT a synonym for animal welfare. Yes, applied ethology deals with that part of animal welfare having to with behavior - but only that part that is of behavior. It is not the role of applied ethologists - or should not be their role - to be the standard bearers of science in the realm of animal welfare. Animal welfare should be of equal concern to all scientists who deal with animals regardless of whether their discipline is genetics, nutrition, physiology or whatever. It is a common and ultimately costly mistake for persons to come to believe that applied ethology equates to or is inclusive of all aspects of animal welfare. Yes, words are important - in each and every scientific discipline, words are important. But applied ethologist are often viewed by persons from other disciplines as being little or nothing more than manipulators of words. And at some point this discussion about gender does little or nothing more than to reinforce this bias. Does it really matter whether I say to my class, "The dog is a sentient being. It is capable of experiencing pain and suffering" as opposed to "The dog is a sentient being. He is capable of experiencing pain and suffering." Surely, we humans are capable of grasping the concept that is included equally in each statement. And I don't see anything wrong with saying, "I need to feed my dog. It is hungry." In fact I suppose that more than a few times in my lifetime I have said, "We need to feed the baby. It is hungry." The proposed attempts to bring forth changes in people's attitudes though use of "he" and "she" as opposed to "it" reminds me of the attempts by some to use language to manipulate public attitudes by using "harvesting" as opposed to "slaughter." Science should be careful with words, but science should also be careful not to use words specifically as a means to intentionally manipulate or change attitudes of the public - either in support of practices associated with use of animals or by those persons who advocate their protection. And the greatly overused English word "it" should be avoided because IT is an indefinite pronoun - not because IT is politically incorrect to use IT. Regards to all, Ray Stricklin From: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "Johanna =?UNKNOWN?Q?V=E4is=E4nen?=" 5-FEB-2005 09:26:33.13 To: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Trash versus Ethology Hi, Well, it looks like my unsubscription was not successfull since I am still getting these mails! I did not even manage to do that right...how poor performance from a PhD student....:( Well I hope Janice and Ray understand that I did not refer to Janece's mail as a spam. My frustrated mail just had a timing which happened to collide with Janece's mail, that's all. I want to refer to animals and most people as its, since in finnish language using the he/she (we actually have only one word for those = hän) souds like one wants to be more classy and sophisticated if using 'hän' of a person and if using that of an animal means that the person is either joking or has lost a couple of srews of ones head if talking about animals like that. It is not considered necessary to emphasize an animal in an overhuman way. This does not have absolutely anything to do with how we treat animals or people surrounding us. For instance, my little its, sleep in my bed every night :) Best Wishes Johanna At 14:57 2005-02-05, Ray Stricklin wrote: > " I for one think that the way we refer to animals that we interact with > is VERY relevant to the field of applied ethology. Language is a poweful > tool, is it not? I therefore did not consider any of the posts referring > to the gender of dogs as trash *or* spam. I often find (and I know that > this is not a universal trait) that those people who refer to animals as > 'its' also treat their animals very differently to others - not > necessarily badly, just different. " > >----------------------- >Dear All, > >Regarding the above and related recent postings: > >Ethology is the study of behavior as an adaptive trait. This means that >knowledge of evolutionary biology is first and foremost a requirement for >one to understanding ethology. > >Applied ethology has to do with the application of >ethologically-based knowledge to questions about animals that fall under >the influence of humans is some significant way. > >Applied ethology is NOT a synonym for animal welfare. Yes, applied >ethology deals with that part of animal welfare having to with behavior - >but only that part that is of behavior. It is not the role of applied >ethologists - or should not be their role - to be the standard bearers of >science in the realm of animal welfare. Animal welfare should be of equal >concern to all scientists who deal with animals regardless of whether >their discipline is genetics, nutrition, physiology or whatever. It is a >common and ultimately costly mistake for persons to come to believe that >applied ethology equates to or is inclusive of all aspects of animal welfare. > >Yes, words are important - in each and every scientific discipline, words >are important. But applied ethologist are often viewed by persons from >other disciplines as being little or nothing more than manipulators of >words. And at some point this discussion about gender does little or >nothing more than to reinforce this bias. > >Does it really matter whether I say to my class, "The dog is a sentient >being. It is capable of experiencing pain and suffering" as opposed to >"The dog is a sentient being. He is capable of experiencing pain and >suffering." Surely, we humans are capable of grasping the concept that is >included equally in each statement. And I don't see anything wrong with >saying, "I need to feed my dog. It is hungry." In fact I suppose that >more than a few times in my lifetime I have said, "We need to feed the >baby. It is hungry." > >The proposed attempts to bring forth changes in people's attitudes though >use of "he" and "she" as opposed to "it" reminds me of the attempts by >some to use language to manipulate public attitudes by using "harvesting" >as opposed to "slaughter." Science should be careful with words, but >science should also be careful not to use words specifically as a means to >intentionally manipulate or change attitudes of the public - either in >support of practices associated with use of animals or by those persons >who advocate their protection. And the greatly overused English word "it" >should be avoided because IT is an indefinite pronoun - not because IT is >politically incorrect to use IT. > >Regards to all, > >Ray Stricklin _______________________________________________________ Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Linköping SE-581 83 Linköping Sweden Phone: +44-13-282611 Mobile: +358-440-172428 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se ________________________________________________________ From: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "Johanna =?UNKNOWN?Q?V=E4is=E4nen?=" 5-FEB-2005 09:30:03.16 To: IN%"D.Lee@mcri.ac.uk" "Diane Lee", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: What's trash? Diane, I have not written anywhere that this particular topic was trash. Johanna At 12:47 2005-02-05, Diane Lee wrote: >I for one think that the way we refer to animals that we interact with is >VERY relevant to the field of applied ethology. Language is a poweful >tool, is it not? I therefore did not consider any of the posts referring >to the gender of dogs as trash *or* spam. I often find (and I know that >this is not a universal trait) that those people who refer to animals as >'its' also treat their animals very differently to others - not >necessarily badly, just different. > >For instance I have friends who use 'it' that do not credit animals with >any great degree of intelligence. Nor do they believe them to show >emotions. As a consequence they interact very differently with animals >than I do. This I believe is a vital part of Applied Ethology. Just my >humble opinion, but there you go. > >Oh and I thought Robin's posts were very amusing (and she's been listening >in on me and my dog!). If only more people took life less seriously. One >of my resolutions this year is to live life like I'm 10 again. So far, I'm >having a ball :o) > >Diane >-----Original Message----- >From: Janice Willard [mailto:jwillard@turbonet.com] >Sent: 05 February 2005 04:17 >To: Johanna Väisänen; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Hey everybody, take a deep breath, please > >Hey everybody,.let's all take a deep breath. > >Johanna, I am sorry that I responded the way I did to your e-mail. I was >unnecessarily negative--I had just spent time that I should not have >wasted on, what I thought was an interesting thing to add to the >discussion, (including your comment about pronouns in the Finnish >language), and was surprised and hurt when you classified it as >spam. Please chalk this up to my having too much to do, not enough sleep >and my worries about my child who has been sick for the last 3 weeks and >does not appear to be improving. > >We forget, sometimes that we are all real people here, all of us with real >lives, real problems and real feelings that can get hurt. A community of >scientists is still a community. > >I also think that Robin had a point when he mentioned needing light >therapy--I think all of us here in the northern hemisphere get short >tempered at the end of a long winter. At least I know that I do. > >Johanna, you have much better things to do with your time right now than >worry about this list--you have an abstract to complete so that you can >present your research. The rest of us also have better things to do with >our time than jumping on you, when you were obviously frustrated and >distraught. We all have real problems and real feelings. > >And while many would feel that this list would be better if it returned to >the more intellectual discussions of earlier years, I think it would even >be better if we returned to the civility that used to be more common on >this list. And today, I have been just as guilty of over-reacting and >being impolite, for which I apologize to the list in general and Johanna >specifically. > >So let's all of us just chill out, okay? > >Janice > >Janice Willard, DVM, MS >Moscow, ID USA > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Johanna Väisänen >To: margory cohen ; >Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 6:21 PM >Subject: Re: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash > >> >> >>The forum is not responsible for your email mistake. > >I did not claim that. But certainly I am, since I have been lazy enough >myself to find out how to unsubscribe from this list. >Could anybody tell me how to do that? When I first subscribed this list I >made a mistake by thinking this was concentreated on applied ethology and >that would be the only topic of disscussion. Well, as it turned out. I was >very wrong. > >Johanna >_______________________________________________________ >Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology >Department of Biology, IFM >University of Linköping >SE-581 83 Linköping >Sweden > >Phone: +44-13-282611 >Mobile: +358-440-172428 > >Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se > >________________________________________________________ > > >---------- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005 _______________________________________________________ Johanna Väisänen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Linköping SE-581 83 Linköping Sweden Phone: +44-13-282611 Mobile: +358-440-172428 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se ________________________________________________________ From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 5-FEB-2005 15:31:19.71 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "'Janice Willard'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Hey everybody, take a deep breath, please "I think all of us here in the northern hemisphere get short tempered at = the end of a long winter." And here in the subtropics at the end of a long hot humid sweltering summer...did you know that more murders and violent assaults occur here = in summer? Is that not in itself of ethological interest? Is the human = animal not worthy of study? Is ethology part of psychology or vice verce? Does = it matter? My 20 cents worth: The "it" "he" and "she" debate is an entirely valid = one. Language underpins the thoughts it is possible to have.=20 Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Janice Willard [mailto:jwillard@turbonet.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 2:17 PM To: Johanna V=E4is=E4nen; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Hey everybody, take a deep breath, please Hey everybody,.let's all take a deep breath. =A0 Johanna, I am sorry that I responded the way I did to your e-mail.=A0 I = was unnecessarily negative--I had just spent time that I should not have = wasted on, what I thought was an interesting thing to add to the discussion, (including your comment about pronouns in the Finnish language), and was surprised and hurt when you classified it as spam.=A0 Please = chalk=A0this up to my having too much to do, not enough sleep and my worries about my child = who has been sick for the last 3 weeks and does not appear to be = improving.=A0=20 =A0 We forget, sometimes that we are all real people here, all of us with = real lives, real problems=A0and real feelings that can=A0get hurt.=A0 =A0A = community of scientists is still a community. =A0 I also think that Robin had a point when he mentioned needing light therapy--I think all of us here in the northern hemisphere get short tempered at the end of a long winter. At least I know that I do.=A0=20 =A0 Johanna, you have much better things to do with your time right now than worry about this list--you have an abstract to complete so that you can present your research.=A0 The rest of us also have better things to do = with our time than jumping on you, when you were obviously frustrated and distraught.=A0=A0We all have real problems and real feelings. =A0 And while many would feel that this list would be better if it returned = to the more intellectual discussions of earlier years, I think it would = even be better if we returned to the civility that used to be more common on = this list.=A0 And today, I have been just as guilty of over-reacting and = being impolite, for which I apologize to the list in general and Johanna specifically. =A0 So let's all of us just chill out, okay?=A0=20 =A0 Janice =A0 Janice Willard, DVM, MS Moscow, ID USA =A0 =A0=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Johanna V=E4is=E4nen=20 To: margory cohen ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca=20 Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 6:21 PM Subject: Re: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash =A0 The forum is not responsible for your email mistake. I did not claim that. But certainly I am, since I have been lazy enough myself to find out how to unsubscribe from this list.=20 Could anybody tell me how to do that? When I first subscribed this list = I made a mistake by thinking this was concentreated on applied ethology = and that would be the only topic of disscussion. Well, as it turned out. I = was very wrong. Johanna=20 _______________________________________________________ Johanna V=E4is=E4nen, PhD student in Ethology Department of Biology, IFM University of Link=F6ping SE-581 83 Link=F6ping Sweden Phone: +44-13-282611 Mobile: +358-440-172428=20 Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se=20 ________________________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005 From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 5-FEB-2005 15:32:32.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs Kayce Cover: Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 6:29 AM > In my work, I treat this kind of thing like any other distraction. In > other words, the dog has a way to behave, period. If he does not like the > people around, it is irrelevant. He is still held accountable for his > behavior. > > Whether the dog is reacting only to a hormonal change, causing him to > interpret his owner as now being "strange", or any other temporary change > due to the pregnancy, or even just taking advantage of her "weakened" > condition, when he gets aroused, he "self-medicates" with various > neurotransmitters, and may quickly develop a (perhaps subconscious) desire > to recreate that internal environment. So, even after a change of other > circumstances, he may still use her to "trigger" a > neurotransmitter/neuropeptide cascade. This is likely to continue to > Mescalate. And, once her "strangeness" has resolved (baby born) he is > likely to continue to use her as an excuse to escalate. > > Even if she is different, that can be acknowledged,and labled and he can > be given a firm set of guidelines for appropriate behavior toward her. margory cohen: Kayce, always good to see you. I have to write with a caution to something in yours though. Excuses don't 'excuse' improper behaviour. The woman in the example for this topic -- it's only gonna get worse for her, I think, 'cause soon there will be a baby in the house. If the dog isn't trained now and the woman isn't taught and doesn't become effective in managing, controlling the dog, the dog is doomed. You know these scenarios. In San Francisco when a woman was killed in her hallway in an attack when the handler could not control the 2 dogs in her custody, the defendants floated the hormone theory for the attack. I doubt I need to say it but I will: this did not float very well in print or in court. And in Truth - it does not matter -- the dog is either trained or not and if not, the owner or handler still is responsible for the safety and welfare of the people and dog. I'm afraid this poor dog sounds doomed. Sad business. Now, you and I might have a terrific time talking about the why's and wherefore's -- but in real world scenarios -- it's a world for results and Poor Dog is indeed in the short end given what passes anymore for training. -margory cohen San Francisco From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 5-FEB-2005 17:20:26.23 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au", IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Language and thought In a message dated 2/5/2005 1:32:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, gooddog@dodo.com.au writes: My 20 cents worth: The "it" "he" and "she" debate is an entirely valid one. Language underpins the thoughts it is possible to have. Speaking just for myself. Whenever, someone talks about an animal, I envision an animal which to me is a living, vital thing with feelings, thoughts, perceptions and a rich internal milieu. The use of the pronoun has no effect on how much I personalize or anthropomorphize my thoughts about the creature. My thoughts are just as underpinned by my emotional association and visualizations as they are by language, probably more so. In fact the linguistically dominated areas of my and most peoples brains comprise a relatively small part of what is going on in there. OTOH I do find the continuous debate about the politically correct use of pronouns annoying, distracting and condescending. The only time I care about what pronoun is chosen is when the issue being discussed is gender specific. Though I may be projecting, I have always assumed that intelligent educated people generally have enough awareness to understand and consider the whole picture even if the pronoun is biased and misleading. IMHO you are just not very smart if you use literal language forms for reason rather than thinking in terms of the deep meaning behind the words. This is a topic that we are dealing a great deal with in the study of artificial intelligence. There have been researchers that have tried to build intellligences based of the rules, structures and content of language and they at best wound up with systems that have a very superficial and distorted reasoning processes, lacking common sense or any meaningful understanding. Language is largely a late evolutionary development primarily intended as a crude attempt at transferring thought between organisms, that rides on top of deep and profound mechanisms of thinking. To say that language is the fundament of thought essentially says that most animals hardly think at all. When a crow bends a wire into a hook to fish a treat out of a hole, does its "caws" allow it to reason through that problem? I think it is time that we judge a persons sexism or speciesism based on the assumptions they make and actions, rather than the accidents or expedients of their word choice. Michael Michalchik From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" 5-FEB-2005 17:59:33.78 To: IN%"margory@rcn.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs > Kayce Cover: > Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 6:29 AM > >> In my work, I treat this kind of thing like any other distraction. In >> other words, the dog has a way to behave, period. If he does not like >> the people around, it is irrelevant. He is still held accountable for >> his behavior. > > margory cohen: > > Kayce, always good to see you. > > I have to write with a caution to something in yours though. > > Excuses don't 'excuse' improper behaviour. > The woman in the example for this topic -- it's only gonna get worse for > her, I think, 'cause soon there will be a baby in the house. > If the dog isn't trained now and the woman isn't taught and doesn't > become effective in managing, controlling the dog, the dog is doomed. > You know these scenarios. > > In San Francisco when a woman was killed in her hallway in an attack > when the handler could not control the 2 dogs in her custody, the > defendants floated the hormone theory for the attack. I doubt I need to > say it but I will: this did not float very well in print or in court. > And in Truth - it does not matter -- the dog is either trained or not > and if not, the owner or handler still is responsible for the safety and > welfare of the people and dog. > > I'm afraid this poor dog sounds doomed. > Sad business. > > Now, you and I might have a terrific time talking about the why's and > wherefore's -- but in real world scenarios -- it's a world for results > and Poor Dog is indeed in the short end given what passes anymore for > training. -margory cohen > San Francisco Hi Margory, Good to see you also! I may not have been clear in my writing, but I was trying to say basically the same thing as you. No matter what might "excuse" his aggression, dog must behave or there can be tragic consequences. Thanks for keeping me on my toes! Best wishes, Kayce Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com From: IN%"mara@animalbehaviourconsulting.com.au" "Mara Roberts" 6-FEB-2005 00:20:14.63 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: writing about dogs Hi Joanne I use 's/he' in general reports but always use the specific gender when I am talking about a particular animal. With my dog owner hat on I hate 'it' because, to me, it deprives the dogs of their individuality and personalities and reduces them to nothing more than inanimate objects. Out of your list I would choose in order of preference a or b. Regards Mara Roberts Animal Behaviour Consulting ----- Original Message ----- From: Joanne Righetti To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; list@asc.asn.au Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 3:16 PM Subject: writing about dogs Hi All, I am writing a booklet on dogs and have had several people edit it, all with different suggestions as to how I refer to dogs eg. he/she, it. For example I say "Give your dog more exercise. Take him or her to an off-leash area." I wonder how readers and dog owners feel when they see the various references to gender. Has this ever been studied? Does anyone have a particular preference from the list below, other suggestions or doesn't it matter? (a) he/she (b) he or she (c) he (d) she (e) he alternating with she (f) it (g) all of the above Love to hear your opinions! Joanne Dr Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviourist Sydney From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 6-FEB-2005 02:55:22.26 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Language and thought You are entitled to your view but many scholars would disagree. We take = a lot for granted.=20 Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:19 AM To: gooddog@dodo.com.au; jwillard@turbonet.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Language and thought In a message dated 2/5/2005 1:32:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, gooddog@dodo.com.au writes: My 20 cents worth: The "it" "he" and "she" debate is an entirely valid = one. Language underpins the thoughts it is possible to have.=20 Speaking just for myself. Whenever, someone talks about an animal, I envision an animal which to me is a living, vital thing with feelings, thoughts, perceptions and a rich internal milieu. The use of the pronoun = has no effect on how much I personalize or anthropomorphize my thoughts = about the creature. My thoughts are just as underpinned by my emotional association and visualizations as they are by language, probably more = so. In fact the linguistically dominated=A0areas of my and most peoples brains comprise a relatively small part of what is going on in there. OTOH I do find the continuous debate about the politically correct use of pronouns annoying, distracting and condescending. The only time I care about what pronoun is chosen is when the issue being=A0discussed is gender = specific. Though I may be projecting, I have always assumed that intelligent = educated people generally have enough awareness to understand and consider the = whole picture even if the pronoun is biased and misleading. IMHO you are just = not very smart if you use literal language forms for reason rather than = thinking in terms of the deep meaning behind the words. This is a topic that we = are dealing a great deal with in the study of artificial intelligence. There have been researchers that have tried to build intellligences based of = the rules, structures and content=A0of language and they at best wound up = with systems that have a very superficial and distorted reasoning processes, lacking common sense or any=A0meaningful=A0understanding. Language is = largely a late evolutionary development primarily intended as a crude attempt at transferring thought between organisms, that rides on top of deep and profound mechanisms of thinking. To say that language is the fundament = of thought essentially says that most animals hardly think at all. When a = crow bends a wire into a hook to fish a treat out of a hole, does its "caws" allow it to reason through that problem? I think it is time that we = judge a persons sexism or speciesism based on the assumptions they make and = actions, rather than the accidents or expedients of their word choice. =A0 Michael Michalchik From: IN%"pdezabu1@dancris.com" "pduezabou" 6-FEB-2005 09:03:25.75 To: IN%"kc@synalia.com", IN%"margory@rcn.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: pregnant woman and aggressive (dogs) and language Thank you, Kaycee and Margory, for clarifying your discussion and for bringing it back to the pertinent subject of behavior. What dogs DO, how they act, is all we have for assessing a situation and attempting an intervention that leads to change in the status quo. I tried to have a similar discussion recently w/a dog owner whose large breed male had escaped its fenced yard and BIT a passing dog walking w/its owners. [Digression: the biter is a neutered male qualifying it for designation of 'it'. The gender of the bitten animal is unknown; therefore, it's an 'it', too.] I was trying to make a case for more vigilant management of all three canines in the home as well as putting a kennel under the deck for the one with UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR (thus providing a roof and keeping it away from the fenceline) while the couple is at work. OK, here's the part about language (It certainly got a reaction from this woman!) The legislature has already operationalized 'vicious dog'. Attacking and biting another animal puts this dog's continued existence on thin ice. Insurance companies define the same category by previous performance. Therefore, to show good faith with your neighbors and to avoid someone's labeling your dog 'vicious', please don't rely ONLY on changing the dog through more training. (It's two years old; it's been in training for two years.) If the dog does not control its own behavior within acceptable limits, your management must. The reaction? Excuses. Denial. Hostility. Language does matter, especially when it's codified, Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick (Duezabou) BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals & Public Policy), ABD From: IN%"cieracanineservices@shaw.ca" "Ciera Canine Services/C.LeBreton" 6-FEB-2005 14:21:01.37 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: New member Hello, My name is Christina Le Breton and I am new to these correspondences. I am a certified dog trainer and I have studied and completed psychology, behavior modification and violence and aggression as well as a few additional courses at Sault College in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario. I was hoping however that someone would be able to recommend to me more schooling and where to take it. My goal is to be a canine psychologist however I am having difficulties finding decent schools that offer animal behavior, psychology and ethology, etc. I hope to learn many things from this board, and I am hoping that someone can recommend to me an excellent school. Thanks everyone! Christina Le Breton Owner/Operator Ciera Canine Services From: IN%"wheep@slingshot.co.nz" "Andy Beck" 6-FEB-2005 14:51:30.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: New member I share the sense of exasperation - applied ethology used to be a great list for "applied ethology" - now it just seems to be steadily turning into a dog training list. Perhaps some migration to an overt dog training list might be in order? Or create a new one at yahoo groups? Otherwise this drift is surely going to destroy the usefulness of the list as it has been over past years - which would be a great shame. Another suggestion might be to preface all dog training postings with 'Re:dog training' - then those on the list not interested can set their mail preferences to block all messages with that in the subject line. Before anyone fires off - I like dogs - I have several and use them for work - but if I wanted to discuss their training and behavior as pets etc I would happily join an appropriate list. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland 0400 Aotearoa - New Zealand 64-9-4011944 http://www.barefootsaddles.co.nz http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.sports-horses.co.nz http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz -----Original Message----- From: Ciera Canine Services/C.LeBreton [mailto:cieracanineservices@shaw.ca] Sent: Monday, 7 February 2005 5:32 a.m. To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: New member Hello, My name is Christina Le Breton and I am new to these correspondences. I am a certified dog trainer and I have studied and completed psychology, behavior modification and violence and aggression as well as a few additional courses at Sault College in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario. I was hoping however that someone would be able to recommend to me more schooling and where to take it. My goal is to be a canine psychologist however I am having difficulties finding decent schools that offer animal behavior, psychology and ethology, etc. I hope to learn many things from this board, and I am hoping that someone can recommend to me an excellent school. Thanks everyone! Christina Le Breton Owner/Operator Ciera Canine Services From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 6-FEB-2005 15:28:13.80 To: IN%"wheep@slingshot.co.nz" "'Andy Beck'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: behaviour models Dogs are (arguably) one of the best behaviour models because they have = such late critical socialisation periods they virtually imprint onto humans = so you do not get as many interspecial communication difficulties. This is = one reason some of us are so taken by dogs. Dogs have a somewhat confused identity for it no doubt. I appreciate that some horses seem to do this = too, but horses are more difficult to study for practical reasons eg they do = not fit into the lounge room. Some of you may prefer the method of being an anonymous fly-on-the-wall and simply observing your subjects. Dogs probably do deserve their own ISAE-like society, but for now there = is just this one. =20 Jackie Perkins=20 -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@slingshot.co.nz]=20 Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 6:51 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: New member I share the sense of exasperation =96 applied ethology used to be a = great list for =93applied ethology=94 =96 now it just seems to be steadily turning = into a dog training list.=20 =A0 Perhaps some migration to an overt dog training list might be in = order?=A0Or create a new one at yahoo groups? Otherwise this drift is surely going = to destroy the usefulness of the list as it has been over past years =96 = which would be a great shame. =A0 Another suggestion might be to preface all dog training postings with =91Re:dog training=92 =96 then those on the list not interested can set = their mail preferences to block all messages with that in the subject line. =A0 Before anyone fires off =96 I like dogs =96 I have several and use them = for work - but if I wanted to discuss their training and behavior as pets etc I = would happily join an appropriate list. =A0 Regards Andy Beck =A0 White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland 0400 Aotearoa - New Zealand 64-9-4011944 http://www.barefootsaddles.co.nz http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.sports-horses.co.nz http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -----Original Message----- From: Ciera Canine Services/C.LeBreton = [mailto:cieracanineservices@shaw.ca]=20 Sent: Monday, 7 February 2005 5:32 a.m. To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: New member =A0 Hello, =A0 My name is Christina Le Breton and I am new to these correspondences.=A0 = I am a certified dog trainer and I have studied and completed psychology, behavior modification and violence and aggression as well as a few additional courses at Sault College in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario. =A0 I was hoping however that someone would be able to recommend to me more schooling and where to take it.=A0 My goal is to be a canine = psychologist however I am having difficulties finding decent schools that offer = animal behavior, psychology and ethology, etc. =A0 I hope to learn many things from this board, and I am hoping that = someone can recommend to me an excellent school. =A0 Thanks everyone! =A0 Christina Le Breton Owner/Operator Ciera Canine Services From: IN%"lucy@equinesynergy.freeserve.co.uk" "Lucy Gray" 6-FEB-2005 15:31:52.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Applied Ethology and everything else...off topic BTW! Just a quick comment as it seems now is a good time to air any grievances. I'm not an ethologist nor am I trainer of any distinction in fact I could best be described as Jo Bloggs with no real formal training of any kind. I simply have an interest in ethology, welfare and behaviour. I very rarely post for obvious reasons, but it seems to me the biggest waste of everyone's time on this list is all the posts complaining about all the posts that aren't about ethology. Of which I am now guilty of adding to...sorry... From my point of view, it's great to see people from other fields contributing to this list, maybe they are like myself, trying to learn a bit more about ethology from the experts. I agree that the list should stay 'on topic' but I'm not sure it's fair to 'bash' these people for contributing their thoughts to the discussions on here simply because they have a different base of knowledge to your own. Having wasted all of your time by going off topic myself, I'll apologise and go back to lurking. Lucy Gray. From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 6-FEB-2005 15:39:48.18 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Language and thought "To say that language is the fundament of thought..." I did not say this.=20 Animals think too.=20 Language is however a powerful influence on thought.=20 Eg Knowing that you are a "he", whenever an animal is termed a "he" I believe that triggers some kind of association somewhere in the human = brain of empathy or relatedness. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]=20 Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 6:55 PM To: Michalchik@aol.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: Language and thought You are entitled to your view but many scholars would disagree. We take = a lot for granted.=20 Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:19 AM To: gooddog@dodo.com.au; jwillard@turbonet.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Language and thought In a message dated 2/5/2005 1:32:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, gooddog@dodo.com.au writes: My 20 cents worth: The "it" "he" and "she" debate is an entirely valid = one. Language underpins the thoughts it is possible to have.=20 Speaking just for myself. Whenever, someone talks about an animal, I envision an animal which to me is a living, vital thing with feelings, thoughts, perceptions and a rich internal milieu. The use of the pronoun = has no effect on how much I personalize or anthropomorphize my thoughts = about the creature. My thoughts are just as underpinned by my emotional association and visualizations as they are by language, probably more = so. In fact the linguistically dominated=A0areas of my and most peoples brains comprise a relatively small part of what is going on in there. OTOH I do find the continuous debate about the politically correct use of pronouns annoying, distracting and condescending. The only time I care about what pronoun is chosen is when the issue being=A0discussed is gender = specific. Though I may be projecting, I have always assumed that intelligent = educated people generally have enough awareness to understand and consider the = whole picture even if the pronoun is biased and misleading. IMHO you are just = not very smart if you use literal language forms for reason rather than = thinking in terms of the deep meaning behind the words. This is a topic that we = are dealing a great deal with in the study of artificial intelligence. There have been researchers that have tried to build intellligences based of = the rules, structures and content=A0of language and they at best wound up = with systems that have a very superficial and distorted reasoning processes, lacking common sense or any=A0meaningful=A0understanding. Language is = largely a late evolutionary development primarily intended as a crude attempt at transferring thought between organisms, that rides on top of deep and profound mechanisms of thinking. To say that language is the fundament = of thought essentially says that most animals hardly think at all. When a = crow bends a wire into a hook to fish a treat out of a hole, does its "caws" allow it to reason through that problem? I think it is time that we = judge a persons sexism or speciesism based on the assumptions they make and = actions, rather than the accidents or expedients of their word choice. =A0 Michael Michalchik From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 6-FEB-2005 15:53:11.50 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Two sides to the bond The pregnant woman discussion typifies my comments below. Did anyone concern themselves with the immediate health of the woman and her unborn baby? It is not healthy for her to be exposed to a growling dog, even in the short term. I shall try to put that comment into terms some of you may find easier to understand, though I am sure that this crossed the minds of the mothers on this list. As an undergraduate Vet student, we learned that to use dogs on your dairy herd causes unacceptably high levels of spontaneous abortion (perhaps the word "miscarrigae" is reserved for women?). My professional advice to this woman would be to provide a safe environment for herself and her unborn baby immediately. The stress hormones induced in her in response to a threatening dog even just once per day must have consequences for the health of her baby, even if not immediate. Jackie Perkins BVSchons BA (psych, ethics) Registered Psychiatric Nurse, Behaviour Medicine Certified Veterinary Behaviourist Published in the December 2004 edition of the Australian Veterinary Journal: TWO SIDES TO THE BOND Dear editor, The "Pet-human" bond has been discussed with increasing frequency by members of our profession. While I am impressed by the demonstration of increasing awareness of this critical subject so central to treating companion animals, I am also struck by the almost complete absence amongst Veterinarians of qualifications on the human side of that equation. Not only is there an almost complete lack of qualifications in the social sciences amongst our profession, there seems to be a certain amount of contempt for the study of the social sciences. To gain expertise in the social sciences requires formal study, just like acquiring Veterinary expertise does. To presume to just "pick it up as one goes along" is not good enough for our precious clients, each with their unique pet-human bond, which many of my colleagues claim to treat while bereft of any credentials on the human side of the pet-human equation. Another important benefit reaped through study of the social sciences is tolerance and appreciation for colleagues with differing personality types and correspondingly differing professional styles. Sadly, such is lacking within our profession in my experience and underscores the urgent need for Veterinarians to undertake formal education in human psychology if our profession is to move forward with integrity. Veterinary education alone does NOT a therapist of the Pet-human bond make. Jackie Perkins From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 6-FEB-2005 16:00:53.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs On the other hand, having been pregnant four and a bit times, and having owned and trained dogs, and attending dog training classses while pregnant, I can tell you that I *never* found any aggression from dogs while pregnant. If anything, the reverse. Dogs, and even more so bitches, tend to find endlessly interesting. I suspect that the woman involved has become more afraid, and/or more aggressive towards the dog. Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kayce Cover" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, 6 February 2005 10:55 AM Subject: Re: pregnant woman and aggressive dogs > > Kayce Cover: > > Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 6:29 AM > > > >> In my work, I treat this kind of thing like any other distraction. In > >> other words, the dog has a way to behave, period. If he does not like > >> the people around, it is irrelevant. He is still held accountable for > >> his behavior. > > > > > margory cohen: > > > > Kayce, always good to see you. > > > > I have to write with a caution to something in yours though. > > > > Excuses don't 'excuse' improper behaviour. > > The woman in the example for this topic -- it's only gonna get worse for > > her, I think, 'cause soon there will be a baby in the house. > > If the dog isn't trained now and the woman isn't taught and doesn't > > become effective in managing, controlling the dog, the dog is doomed. > > You know these scenarios. > > > > In San Francisco when a woman was killed in her hallway in an attack > > when the handler could not control the 2 dogs in her custody, the > > defendants floated the hormone theory for the attack. I doubt I need to > > say it but I will: this did not float very well in print or in court. > > And in Truth - it does not matter -- the dog is either trained or not > > and if not, the owner or handler still is responsible for the safety and > > welfare of the people and dog. > > > > I'm afraid this poor dog sounds doomed. > > Sad business. > > > > Now, you and I might have a terrific time talking about the why's and > > wherefore's -- but in real world scenarios -- it's a world for results > > and Poor Dog is indeed in the short end given what passes anymore for > > training. -margory cohen > > San Francisco > > Hi Margory, > > Good to see you also! I may not have been clear in my writing, but I was > trying to say basically the same thing as you. No matter what might > "excuse" his aggression, dog must behave or there can be tragic > consequences. > > Thanks for keeping me on my toes! > > Best wishes, > Kayce > > Kayce Cover > Syn Alia Training Systems > http://www.synalia.com From: IN%"wheep@slingshot.co.nz" "Andy Beck" 6-FEB-2005 16:19:23.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Applied Ethology and everything else...off topic BTW! Not bashing - just politely suggesting that those of us who are "trying to learn a bit more about ethology" might be allowed to do so without being buried under dog training and behavior posts that are perhaps more suited to a canine list. Yahoo groups has 84 lists dedicated to dogs - covering all aspects of training and behavior - but there's only one applied ethology - and, at a guess, it might be for those interested in applied ethology? And still not bashing....... Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland 0400 Aotearoa - New Zealand 64-9-4011944 http://www.barefootsaddles.co.nz http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.sports-horses.co.nz http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz -----Original Message----- From: Lucy Gray [mailto:lucy@equinesynergy.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Monday, 7 February 2005 10:24 a.m. To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Applied Ethology and everything else...off topic BTW! Just a quick comment as it seems now is a good time to air any grievances. I'm not an ethologist nor am I trainer of any distinction in fact I could best be described as Jo Bloggs with no real formal training of any kind. I simply have an interest in ethology, welfare and behaviour. I very rarely post for obvious reasons, but it seems to me the biggest waste of everyone's time on this list is all the posts complaining about all the posts that aren't about ethology. Of which I am now guilty of adding to...sorry... From my point of view, it's great to see people from other fields contributing to this list, maybe they are like myself, trying to learn a bit more about ethology from the experts. I agree that the list should stay 'on topic' but I'm not sure it's fair to 'bash' these people for contributing their thoughts to the discussions on here simply because they have a different base of knowledge to your own. Having wasted all of your time by going off topic myself, I'll apologise and go back to lurking. Lucy Gray. From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 6-FEB-2005 19:12:41.86 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Language and thought In a message dated 2/6/2005 1:41:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, gooddog@dodo.com.au writes: "To say that language is the fundament of thought..." I did not say this. Animals think too. Language is however a powerful influence on thought. Eg Knowing that you are a "he", whenever an animal is termed a "he" I believe that triggers some kind of association somewhere in the human brain of empathy or relatedness. Jackie Perkins Well, the exact quote is, "Language underpins the thoughts it is possible to have." , which sounds to me that you are saying that thought can not exist outside the bounds set by language. But my goal here is not to trip you up, you were probably speaking incautiously or hyperbolically, something that I frequently find myself doing. Since language doesn't dictate thought, I consider it quite plausible that a person can say something different than what they are thinking. ;-) I actually agree with you that words do affect our associations and that word choice can reflect underlying biases, but I think that these truths have been used to rationalize a great deal of rhetorical bullying and ad hominem attacks. It is my impression that the majority of linguistic choice is just the habit of subculture that could be properly understood by people who are open to a positive interpretation of what is being said. Though there is some disagreement in this group about what constitutes animal welfare, I have not seen any sign from anyone that anybody here thinks that animals are unfeeling automata that should be treated as mere objects. In fact, i can think of one case of a person expressing something other than concern and affection for animals. In this context, harping on particular instances of word choice is really just bullying. It is importent to realize that even essentially good impulses, such as sensitivity to the use of derrogatory terms, is often coopted to create an insider, outsider mechanism of dominance. There are strident, self-serving fanatics, that thrive in the role of enforcers even in the most laudible causes. It is this sort of extremism that has alienated so much of the general population from the progressive movement, because people respond much more to the truth of the social dynamic rather than the strength of the logic of the cause. From: IN%"Wendy@southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk" "WendyHanson" 6-FEB-2005 19:13:34.56 To: IN%"lucy@equinesynergy.freeserve.co.uk" "Lucy Gray", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Applied Ethology and everything else...off topic BTW! Well said Lucy. I would just like to add that there are many ethologists studying dogs and the origins of their domestication [eg Coppinger] so why knock [and delete before reading] the posts concerning dogs, just because they have the word 'dogs' in the title. After all there may just be something worthwhile in them. Wendy Hanson Dip. ACP{NOCN} Dip.Nutri.Med{RC} www.southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Lucy Gray To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:24 PM Subject: Applied Ethology and everything else...off topic BTW! Just a quick comment as it seems now is a good time to air any grievances. I'm not an ethologist nor am I trainer of any distinction in fact I could best be described as Jo Bloggs with no real formal training of any kind. I simply have an interest in ethology, welfare and behaviour. I very rarely post for obvious reasons, but it seems to me the biggest waste of everyone's time on this list is all the posts complaining about all the posts that aren't about ethology. Of which I am now guilty of adding to...sorry... From my point of view, it's great to see people from other fields contributing to this list, maybe they are like myself, trying to learn a bit more about ethology from the experts. I agree that the list should stay 'on topic' but I'm not sure it's fair to 'bash' these people for contributing their thoughts to the discussions on here simply because they have a different base of knowledge to your own. Having wasted all of your time by going off topic myself, I'll apologise and go back to lurking. Lucy Gray. From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 6-FEB-2005 19:46:04.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: Doggy Subjects: reply to Andy Hi Andy, As a doggy person, as well as having an interest in 'ethology' (I've probably left my run for higher degrees too late), I can't say that I find doggy matters off topic. Lorenz himself wrote about dogs ("Man Meets Dog") We are not discussing training, nor telling cutesy stories. Being on (or having been on) a number of dog lists, I have not found one that is interested in intelligent discussion of dog behaviour. (If you know of one, please tell me and I'll happily give it a try :-) On top of that, this list has ben remarkably quiet of late, so I cannot see that doggy topics are 'clogging it up'. Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Andy Beck To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: Monday, 7 February 2005 9:18 AM Subject: RE: Applied Ethology and everything else...off topic BTW! Not bashing - just politely suggesting that those of us who are "trying to learn a bit more about ethology" might be allowed to do so without being buried under dog training and behavior posts that are perhaps more suited to a canine list. Yahoo groups has 84 lists dedicated to dogs - covering all aspects of training and behavior - but there's only one applied ethology - and, at a guess, it might be for those interested in applied ethology? And still not bashing....... Regards Andy Beck From: IN%"rbogle@sonic.net" "Rick Bogle" 6-FEB-2005 21:21:11.71 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviour models "Dogs are (arguably) one of the best behaviour models because they have such late critical socialisation periods they virtually imprint onto humans so you do not get as many interspecial communication difficulties." Best models of what? Best models of every other species' behavior? That seems improbable. The best models of human behavior? Hum... Rick Bogle Madison, Wisconsin > -----Original Message----- > From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] > Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 3:28 PM > To: 'Andy Beck'; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: behaviour models > > > Dogs are (arguably) one of the best behaviour models because they > have such > late critical socialisation periods they virtually imprint onto humans so > you do not get as many interspecial communication difficulties. > This is one > reason some of us are so taken by dogs. Dogs have a somewhat confused > identity for it no doubt. I appreciate that some horses seem to > do this too, > but horses are more difficult to study for practical reasons eg > they do not > fit into the lounge room. Some of you may prefer the method of being an > anonymous fly-on-the-wall and simply observing your subjects. > Dogs probably do deserve their own ISAE-like society, but for now there is > just this one. > Jackie Perkins > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@slingshot.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 6:51 AM > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: RE: New member > > I share the sense of exasperation – applied ethology used to be a > great list > for “applied ethology” – now it just seems to be steadily turning > into a dog > training list. >   > Perhaps some migration to an overt dog training list might be in order? Or > create a new one at yahoo groups? Otherwise this drift is surely going to > destroy the usefulness of the list as it has been over past years – which > would be a great shame. >   > Another suggestion might be to preface all dog training postings with > ‘Re:dog training’ – then those on the list not interested can set > their mail > preferences to block all messages with that in the subject line. >   > Before anyone fires off – I like dogs – I have several and use > them for work > - but if I wanted to discuss their training and behavior as pets > etc I would > happily join an appropriate list. >   > Regards > Andy Beck >   > White Horse Equine Ethology Project > 433 Wharepunga Rd > RD3 Kaikohe > Northland 0400 > Aotearoa - New Zealand > 64-9-4011944 > http://www.barefootsaddles.co.nz > http://www.equine-behavior.com > http://www.sports-horses.co.nz > http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz >   >   >   >   > -----Original Message----- > From: Ciera Canine Services/C.LeBreton [mailto:cieracanineservices@shaw.ca] Sent: Monday, 7 February 2005 5:32 a.m. To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: New member   Hello,   My name is Christina Le Breton and I am new to these correspondences.  I am a certified dog trainer and I have studied and completed psychology, behavior modification and violence and aggression as well as a few additional courses at Sault College in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario.   I was hoping however that someone would be able to recommend to me more schooling and where to take it.  My goal is to be a canine psychologist however I am having difficulties finding decent schools that offer animal behavior, psychology and ethology, etc.   I hope to learn many things from this board, and I am hoping that someone can recommend to me an excellent school.   Thanks everyone!   Christina Le Breton Owner/Operator Ciera Canine Services From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" 6-FEB-2005 22:03:35.38 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviour models so > you do not get as many interspecial communication difficulties. Pardon?? Jackie, In my opinion one of the biggest route causes of many of the problems I see in my work with canines and novice handlers is just exactly because of misunderstandings arising out of the interspecies communication (differences/difficulties/gap) between primates (us) and Canus Familiaris. (in the form of the domestic dog) Regards John L. New Zealand. From: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "Pat Robards" 6-FEB-2005 23:31:54.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Doggy Subjects: reply to Andy From: Jenny Haskins Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 12:49 PM Jenny Haskins wrote in part: Being on (or having been on) a number of dog lists, I have not found one that is interested in intelligent discussion of dog behaviour. (If you know of one, please tell me and I'll happily give it a try :-) Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia Hi Jenny, I agree with Andy, There are plenty of dog training lists, since you asked about dog training lists, there is mine and you are already a member. Jenny, you are quite welcome to contribute with an intelligent discussion on dog behaviour any time you like. I enjoy reading the ethology posts, I posted in about dog training a few times on the Yawning thread (I was asked to do so) therefore dog training was applicable then. I'm interested in ethology which is why I am here, I'd like to get away from dog training. Thank you Pat Robards NSW Australia http://www.k9events.com/ From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" 7-FEB-2005 02:35:02.35 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: RE: New member > Another suggestion might be to preface all dog training postings with > 'Re:dog training' - then those on the list not interested can set their mail > preferences to block all messages with that in the subject line. Hi Andy, As you are aware I am a trainer who is here to learn about the dog ethology in any way it relates to domestic dogs. These are a species in their own right. Their natural habitat is living with man. They therefore undergoing training the same way as wild animals undergo training in their natural groups. BUT I do agree that your suggestion is perhaps a good workable one for those with no interest in this species or their interaction with man. > - but if I wanted to discuss their training and behavior as pets etc I would > happily join an appropriate list. This is an appropriate list to discuss the ethology (behaviour) of the species Canis Familiarus (Domestic dog). REFERENCE: The domestic dog: It's evolution, behaviour and interections with people. Author James Serpell. The dog family or Canidae is a biologically cohesive group of carnivores That is divded into 38 species including the domestic dog................................ ......................................................... The dog Canis Familiaris is the only species that can be said to be fully domesticated....... END OF REFERENCE Yes I do know that this genus has been applied to other species of dog over the years but I think that in most instances this classification has been altered to include the subspecies name. It is now unless I am mistaken only used to refer to the domestic dog. Incidently the author quoted as a reference above actually quotes from a number of ethologists whose work is the study of the dog including the domestic species some of whom are list members. Regards John L. New Zealand. From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 7-FEB-2005 02:44:59.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: methodological question - science in general and behaviour studies in particular Dear All, I wonder if there's still anybody out there with energy for a discussion of a fundamental - philosophical methodological issue, that is relevant for applied ethology as it is relevant for many other disciplines with experimental work. Could anybody present a convincing argument for applying a factorial design with more than 2 or at a maximum 3 factors, rather than setting out to answer the question stepwise in several subsequent experiments? The background to my question is as follows: I recently started reading a number of papers from our neighbouring disciplines behavioural pharmacology and neuroendocrinology for a review, and it didn't take long before I started to come across things like 2x3x3x3 factorial designs. An example: you want to study the effect of housing condition on reaction to a psychoactive drug. You house animals of 2 sexes in 3 housing environments, give them 3 levels of drug concentration and test them at 3 time points after drug administration. I agree - this looks terrific at the design state. But then come analysis and interpretation... What happened to me when reading was: 1) I rapidly gave in on reading the results section and went straight to the discussion (where the authors present results WITH an interpretation), because I can't afford to spend 30-45 minutes per paper to try to sort out what the different interactions may mean 2) I started to ask myself the question I'm now asking the list - what's the point? Unless you're terribly lucky and deal with really large and consistent effects, aren't you bound to get a number of interactions that you will not really know how to interpret? Regards, Anna Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour & Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Faz +351 22 609 9157 From: IN%"Nabilbrandl@privat.dk" "Nabil Brandl" 7-FEB-2005 03:03:43.22 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: methodological question - science in general and behaviour studies in particular Dear Anna Olsson Try these links, you will find answers for your questions: http://host.uniroma3.it/progetti/kant/field/ceth.htm http://cogprints.org/160/00/199709005.html http://www.anapsid.org/ethology1b.html http://grimpeur.tamu.edu/~colin/Papers/asas.html http://grimpeur.tamu.edu/~colin/TCA/Ch/Intro/intro-final.pdf http://grimpeur.tamu.edu/~colin/SpeciesofMind/chapter1.html Best regards and keep in touch Nabil Brandl e-mail: NabilBrandl@tiscali.dk e-mail: nabilbrandl@privat.dk e-mail: nabilbrandl@orangenet.dk e-mail: nabilbrandl1@excite.com http://nabilnabil.homestead.com http://home20.inet.tele.dk/nabilbrandl/nabil.html Skype Me! ----- Original Message ----- From: Anna Olsson To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 9:44 AM Subject: methodological question - science in general and behaviour studies in particular Dear All, I wonder if there's still anybody out there with energy for a discussion of a fundamental - philosophical methodological issue, that is relevant for applied ethology as it is relevant for many other disciplines with experimental work. Could anybody present a convincing argument for applying a factorial design with more than 2 or at a maximum 3 factors, rather than setting out to answer the question stepwise in several subsequent experiments? The background to my question is as follows: I recently started reading a number of papers from our neighbouring disciplines behavioural pharmacology and neuroendocrinology for a review, and it didn't take long before I started to come across things like 2x3x3x3 factorial designs. An example: you want to study the effect of housing condition on reaction to a psychoactive drug. You house animals of 2 sexes in 3 housing environments, give them 3 levels of drug concentration and test them at 3 time points after drug administration. I agree - this looks terrific at the design state. But then come analysis and interpretation... What happened to me when reading was: 1) I rapidly gave in on reading the results section and went straight to the discussion (where the authors present results WITH an interpretation), because I can't afford to spend 30-45 minutes per paper to try to sort out what the different interactions may mean 2) I started to ask myself the question I'm now asking the list - what's the point? Unless you're terribly lucky and deal with really large and consistent effects, aren't you bound to get a number of interactions that you will not really know how to interpret? Regards, Anna Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour & Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Faz +351 22 609 9157 From: IN%"wheep@slingshot.co.nz" "Andy Beck" 7-FEB-2005 03:38:56.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: RE: New member When postings instruct on junior school level facts such as that the domestic dog is a species in its own right it is clearly time to leave before what was a great list becomes yet further devalued. Nor am I convinced that it is arguable that animals consciously cause training to occur in any way that is comparable with what humans do with dogs. I've very much enjoyed being a member over the last few years - but much less so as both the tenor and good manners of postings has decreased as the dog training fraternity have taken over - many thanks and best wishes to all whose posts have enlightened. And to the 'rancher' type whose recent display of ignorance of the meaning of 'vested interest' was only exceeded by her rudeness in a private mail to me - I suggest you think about getting some tertiary education rather than indulging in juvenile reactionary insults. Regards Andy Beck -----Original Message----- From: k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz [mailto:k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz] Sent: Monday, 7 February 2005 9:35 p.m. To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: RE: New member > Another suggestion might be to preface all dog training postings with > 'Re:dog training' - then those on the list not interested can set their mail > preferences to block all messages with that in the subject line. Hi Andy, As you are aware I am a trainer who is here to learn about the dog ethology in any way it relates to domestic dogs. These are a species in their own right. Their natural habitat is living with man. They therefore undergoing training the same way as wild animals undergo training in their natural groups. BUT I do agree that your suggestion is perhaps a good workable one for those with no interest in this species or their interaction with man. > - but if I wanted to discuss their training and behavior as pets etc I would > happily join an appropriate list. This is an appropriate list to discuss the ethology (behaviour) of the species Canis Familiarus (Domestic dog). REFERENCE: The domestic dog: It's evolution, behaviour and interections with people. Author James Serpell. The dog family or Canidae is a biologically cohesive group of carnivores That is divded into 38 species including the domestic dog................................ ......................................................... The dog Canis Familiaris is the only species that can be said to be fully domesticated....... END OF REFERENCE Yes I do know that this genus has been applied to other species of dog over the years but I think that in most instances this classification has been altered to include the subspecies name. It is now unless I am mistaken only used to refer to the domestic dog. Incidently the author quoted as a reference above actually quotes from a number of ethologists whose work is the study of the dog including the domestic species some of whom are list members. Regards John L. New Zealand. From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 7-FEB-2005 03:53:00.70 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: methodological question - science in general and behaviour studies in particular Anna- The reasons statisticians often recommend that factorial designs be used are: (1) They potentiate detection of interactions between/among independent variables, some of which interactions may be germane to the overall question(s) at hand- (2) Factorial designs tend to lend statistical power to analyses of variance- As for interpretation of results of such analyses, many scientists eventually worry about discussing and drawing conclusions from two-way--or at most three-way--interactions only- Third- and higher-order interactions usually are difficult to interpret unless there is an a priori hypothetical reason for thinking that there may be such interaction- Often the sums of squares due to those higher-order interactions are simply lumped together with some error term or another, but a statistical consultant should advise as to whether this is cricket in a specific case- -Stanley Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: Anna Olsson To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 2:44 AM Subject: methodological question - science in general and behaviour studies in particular Dear All, I wonder if there's still anybody out there with energy for a discussion of a fundamental - philosophical methodological issue, that is relevant for applied ethology as it is relevant for many other disciplines with experimental work. Could anybody present a convincing argument for applying a factorial design with more than 2 or at a maximum 3 factors, rather than setting out to answer the question stepwise in several subsequent experiments? The background to my question is as follows: I recently started reading a number of papers from our neighbouring disciplines behavioural pharmacology and neuroendocrinology for a review, and it didn't take long before I started to come across things like 2x3x3x3 factorial designs. An example: you want to study the effect of housing condition on reaction to a psychoactive drug. You house animals of 2 sexes in 3 housing environments, give them 3 levels of drug concentration and test them at 3 time points after drug administration. I agree - this looks terrific at the design state. But then come analysis and interpretation... What happened to me when reading was: 1) I rapidly gave in on reading the results section and went straight to the discussion (where the authors present results WITH an interpretation), because I can't afford to spend 30-45 minutes per paper to try to sort out what the different interactions may mean 2) I started to ask myself the question I'm now asking the list - what's the point? Unless you're terribly lucky and deal with really large and consistent effects, aren't you bound to get a number of interactions that you will not really know how to interpret? Regards, Anna Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour & Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Faz +351 22 609 9157 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 7-FEB-2005 03:59:26.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: the value of this list Dear all, I probably shouldn't spend my time on this but I can't help feeling so much for this list that I rush to defend it. Before further perpetuating this discussion on what should and should not be discussed here, please stop for a moment and think about the following: 1. When this list started more than ten years ago, there were marvellous discussions on all sorts of issues with great relevance for applied ethology, discussions that were so much the better because there were so many active and knowledgeable researchers subscribing and participating. 2. For each discussion that went astray into silly arrogant exchanges of accusations a number of those very valuable members unsubscribed. I'm afraid that 1) is less true today than in 1993 when I joined the list (although it might be that I'm more critical now), but I'm absolutely sure that 2) holds just as true today. And each of you - professor, dog trainer, high school student, policy-maker, journalist, PhD student, whatever - can help to maintain this list a useful list by keeping discussions at a level that make people stay on the list!! We had the dog training discussion (should it be on this list or somewhere else) in August 2003 and the consensus was (correct me if I'm wrong) that dog ethology had a place on the list and that those not interested could delete messages with dog in the heading. Could we not stick to that decision? Regards, Anna Olsson From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 7-FEB-2005 07:27:32.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Applied Ethology It's been very telling actually. I too am a long-time subscriber, somewhere between 5-7 years? It is not the topic of Dog that has led to people signing out; it's the course discussions have taken, a rudeness, which to me at my seat at the table, reflects from the same philosophy(ies) that get some of the animals in trouble. Theories are madly defended because publications defend jobs and positions. Some publications in recent years have to come under fire too from more quarters than just the participants of this list. Too much information is available anymore for some myths to be given a free ride. It's not a dog problem, this dissent. -margory cohen San Francisco (I invariably don't think much of the dog problem is a dog problem, but then people who know me know that.) From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 7-FEB-2005 07:36:55.21 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Language and thought Dear All, For those of you on this list who do not publish in scientific journals, many behaviour journals actively discourage use of 'he' and 'she'. Whether you agree with this or not, that is the phraseology that scientists are trained not to use. I totally agree with Michael's previous posting that this does not mean we automatically de-value the animal by the use of these terms. The original posting on this subject was in regards to a leaflet about dogs. Presumably, this is a list member developing a pamphlet to advertise a service they offer. This is not scientific writing, but serves another purpose and therefore has different aims. I suspect I too would use 'he' or 'she' if writing such a pamplet. Chris On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 18:19:06 -0500 (EST) Michalchik@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/5/2005 1:32:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, > gooddog@dodo.com.au writes: > > My 20 cents worth: The "it" "he" and "she" debate is an entirely valid one. > Language underpins the thoughts it is possible to have. > > > Speaking just for myself. Whenever, someone talks about an animal, I > envision an animal which to me is a living, vital thing with feelings, thoughts, > perceptions and a rich internal milieu. The use of the pronoun has no effect on > how much I personalize or anthropomorphize my thoughts about the creature. My > thoughts are just as underpinned by my emotional association and > visualizations as they are by language, probably more so. In fact the > linguistically > dominated areas of my and most peoples brains comprise a relatively small part > of what is going on in there. OTOH I do find the continuous debate about the > politically correct use of pronouns annoying, distracting and condescending. > The only time I care about what pronoun is chosen is when the issue being > discussed is gender specific. Though I may be projecting, I have always assumed > that intelligent educated people generally have enough awareness to understand > and consider the whole picture even if the pronoun is biased and misleading. > IMHO you are just not very smart if you use literal language forms for > reason rather than thinking in terms of the deep meaning behind the words. This is > > a topic that we are dealing a great deal with in the study of artificial > intelligence. There have been researchers that have tried to build > intellligences based of the rules, structures and content of language and they at > best > wound up with systems that have a very superficial and distorted reasoning > processes, lacking common sense or any meaningful understanding. Language is > largely a late evolutionary development primarily intended as a crude attempt at > transferring thought between organisms, that rides on top of deep and profound > mechanisms of thinking. To say that language is the fundament of thought > essentially says that most animals hardly think at all. When a crow bends a wire > into a hook to fish a treat out of a hole, does its "caws" allow it to > reason through that problem? I think it is time that we judge a persons sexism or > speciesism based on the assumptions they make and actions, rather than the > accidents or expedients of their word choice. > > Michael Michalchik ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology, Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, BS40 5DU, U.K. Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"rattitude@angelfire.com" 7-FEB-2005 07:44:12.25 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu", IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: methodological question - science in general and behaviour studies in particular Hi Although I tend to prefer simple designs for the sake of clarity I do see many advantages to factorial methods and would add the following to the essential ones already identified by Stanley Curtis below. * Reducing animal numbers as separate tests require the use of multple control groups and each subject is an exemplar or only one factor (vs. potentially a number of overlapping factors) * Increasing external validity by showing the main effects are robust over other factors that should not effect them (gender, strain, housing etc). Main effects that are small and 'fragile' should not necessarily be pursued if more promising possibilities exist. * Pragmatically speaking I like to include a factor of known effect on the dependent variable even if it is not a novel issue. This helps reassure me that negative findings in other areas are valid (i.e. animals are reactive, tests are detecting changes therefore vartiable just not doing anything). When there are multiple positive effects it helps me 'scale' them by severity. (Sure they want it, but how much? etc) In terms of addressing interactions per. se. -- I feel there is a need for much more use of factorial desgins that address environment/genetic interactions which are poorly understood by each of these disciplines. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > (1) They potentiate detection of interactions between/among independent >variables, some of which interactions may be germane to the overall >question(s) at hand- > > (2) Factorial designs tend to lend statistical power to analyses of >variance- >> > -Stanley Curtis From: IN%"Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk" "Moira Harris" 7-FEB-2005 08:26:05.34 To: IN%"johva@ifm.liu.se" "Johanna =?UNKNOWN?Q?V=E4is=E4nen?=", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Spams concerning dogs & other off topic trash Dear Johanna, A small but important point which I apologise if somebody has already made=20 (my Inbox is very full and, like you, I sometimes resort to deleting=20 messages unread if I don't anticipate they will be of interest). The=20 message about the abstract deadline for the ISAE Congress in Japan came=20 through the ISAEnet-L I think, not the applied-ethology list. ISAEnet-L is = a message list for official ISAE use only and restricted to ISAE members,=20 and is generally of very low volume. The applied-ethology list is not=20 affiliated with ISAE. I agree that the title "Rush Work" was not=20 particularly informative. Perhaps in future a brief scan for the origin of = the message as well as its title would save from discarding things you=20 wanted to read? Best wishes, - Moira Harris ISAE Membership Secretary --On 04 February 2005 21:07 +0100 "Johanna = =3D?UNKNOWN?Q?V=3DE4is=3DE4nen?=3D"=20 wrote: > Dear all, > > I have to warn you all that I am not on a happy mood while witing this. > So please, take that into an account before starting to hate me. > > You know guys, throung this list a way too many posts which do not have > any relevance for applied ethology is being posted. The most annoyng of > all are all the trash postings concerning dogs. Just like Ray, I have > developed a habit to delete all messages with a dog in the title without > even bothering to check if the post might tryly have some relevance. One > might think now that I am not interested in dogs. Wrong. I am. I am a > breeder, I have two bitches and one more coming very soon. I am a > qualified trained (according to finnish standards) in agility and I have > competed many years in obedience, agility and shows and coached other > people in agility both in finland and sweden. And I find this dog stuff > flooding through this list below all standards. It is not only dog > messages which are many times pure trash. > > People also post other off topic entertainment on this list. Due to this, > I delete automatically those messages which have a dodgy (not clearly > formulated) title which does not presicely summarise the topic's > relevance for applied ethology research. Consequently, I deleted the > message that came through ISAE list two days ago and was titled rush > work. Since I have had difficulties to find funding to travel to the > conference in Japan I have not been visiting that website very often but > relied ISAE list on deadlines etc. Well, that message I deleted without > reading happened to be a reminder of the abstract deadline. And the > deadline was today. If I had not deleted that message I would have had a > whole two days to discuss with my boss and ask his opinnion about sending > an abstract and had had plenty of time to possibly write and submit that > abstract without any problems. > > From now on I would wish that everybody writing on this list would title > his/her topic in a clear and prompt manner so that the title states what > relevance the post has for applied ethology as a science and if none, > please do not post al all. I mean that the world is full of chatrooms > etc. which would suit much better for many of these discussions some > people have posted here. I also think that most of the dog trash posted > here has a very debilitating effect on the actual possibility of people > to discuss and learn about the research work on dog ethology. > > Best wishes > Johanna > _______________________________________________________ > Johanna V=E4is=E4nen, PhD student in Ethology > Department of Biology, IFM > University of Link=F6ping > SE-581 83 Link=F6ping > Sweden > > Phone: +44-13-281100 > Mobile: +358-440-172428 > > Email:johanna.vaisanen@ifm.liu.se > ________________________________________________________ > ------------------------------------- Dr. Moira Harris Dept. Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol moira.harris@bristol.ac.uk 0117 928 9404 From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 7-FEB-2005 10:26:27.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dog list "Dogs probably do deserve their own ISAE-like society, but for now there is just this one. Jackie Perkins " Jackie, Why is there only this one? I mean is it just because a number of people devoted to dog training (as opposed to dog/coyote/wolf behavior) have commandeered this list (which was begun for entirely different purposes) and gotten used to it? It seems to me it is not so very hard to set up a list of your own using yahoo, if you and enough other dog training people wanted to do so. People do it all the time. It just takes one person with initiative. Marlene Halverson From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 7-FEB-2005 10:54:57.25 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: stop complaining and start some new discussion! start some other discussions! are you all waiting for someone else to say something interesting? Here's a topic. What basic principles of animal behavior and management can be learned from keeping tropical fresh or saltwater fish? What are species specific needs for water quality? pH, salinity, type of salts, temperature, current, dissolved oxygen? Tank design, is the tank large enough for the fish and with what ratios of height, depth, length and type of swimming permitted? How will a species change in health or behavior if not given optimal environmental conditions? How is this similar to housing poultry, cattle, horses, wolves or coyotes and what effect will this have on egg, meat, milk production or behavior? How about communal tank design and stocking? What species can be put together even if predator and prey if conditions are correct? How can population density with least conflict be managed with environmental factors such as rock, logs, coral formations, plants to provide hiding places or visual barriers? How does population density affect breeding behavior? How much do the same types of factors apply to managing domestic or non-domestic animals in captivity? Clare Lewandowski From: IN%"pdezabu1@dancris.com" "pduezabou" 7-FEB-2005 10:55:51.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Just a thought I have been known to subscribe to some lists that are way out of my comfort level. Why would I do this (i.e., read oddly worded, strangely argued posts from strangers who adhere to beliefs that do not coincide with mine)? I I do this because I believe it will help me talk with a target audience. I want to know, for example, how dog or sheep or coyote owners (just to name a few favorites) interpret the findings I might bring from a truly exciting academic paper. It's about application. If ethologists want dog trainers--an intermediate population that often communicates academic work to the general dog-owning public--to 'get it right', perhaps they can hone their skills on an e-list by risking conversations with those dog trainers. Uh-oh, I may have just started to argue once more that words/language matter(s). Darn. Is that off topic? Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick (Duezabou) BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals & Public Policy), ABD From: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" 7-FEB-2005 11:03:55.88 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: the value of this list I'm on a number of discussion lists, and this is by far the most contentious. I've been on this list maybe 3 years, and, as a non-scientist outsider, my observation is consistent with Anna's comment #2. This list has opened up areas of exploration for me that I probably wouldn't have elsewhere encountered, and I really appreciate it. But if having an interest isn't sufficient, and plain, old non-ethologist folks like us aren't welcome, perhaps this list shouldn't be open to the public. I had assumed that since it is, part of its mission/goal/whatever, is to invite us in to become educated. I have become hesitant to ask questions or post at all because I never know what will spark the hostility, but the mere mention of DOGS is sure to do it. Could you guys just - like - get a grip (Americanese) and come to some agreement on what you want this on-line community to be? Cissy Anna Olsson wrote: > Dear all, > > > > I probably shouldn't spend my time on this but I can't help feeling so > much for this list that I rush to defend it. Before further perpetuating > this discussion on what should and should not be discussed here, please > stop for a moment and think about the following: > > > > 1. When this list started more than ten years ago, there were marvellous > discussions on all sorts of issues with great relevance for applied > ethology, discussions that were so much the better because there were so > many active and knowledgeable researchers subscribing and participating. > > 2. For each discussion that went astray into silly arrogant exchanges of > accusations a number of those very valuable members unsubscribed. > > > > I'm afraid that 1) is less true today than in 1993 when I joined the > list (although it might be that I'm more critical now), but I'm > absolutely sure that 2) holds just as true today. And each of you - > professor, dog trainer, high school student, policy-maker, journalist, > PhD student, whatever - can help to maintain this list a useful list by > keeping discussions at a level that make people stay on the list!! > > > > We had the dog training discussion (should it be on this list or > somewhere else) in August 2003 and the consensus was (correct me if I'm > wrong) that dog ethology had a place on the list and that those not > interested could delete messages with dog in the heading. Could we not > stick to that decision? > > > > Regards, > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > > From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 7-FEB-2005 11:51:42.45 To: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Behavioural ecotoxicology Hi Clare, I am going to reinforce the suggestion of new topics... I am not answering your questions directly, but since you mentioned fish... I recently (just over a year ago) started doing work with fish (I know, far from the wolves, still involved with that research though...). I developed a strong interest in the past few years in the field of behavioural ecotoxicology. Basically, the study of environmental neurotoxins and endocrine disruptors on behaviour (in my case, faithful to ethology, focussing on natural action sequences). A common model in ecotoxicology of the estuarine/salt marshes environment is the mummichog (Fundulus heteroclitus), yet, almost nothing is known of its behaviour. Mummichogs are simply quite amazing as they are the only fish species living in the Sydney Tar Ponds (likely the most polluted site in Canada, I would venture to suggest in North America). We are interested in the neurotransmitter systems and behaviours that are affected by the plethora of pollutants found in the Tar Ponds. Since mummichogs are common preys of many shore birds, mink and otters, the impact of the neurotoxins may be quite substantial on local wildlife. They are so hardy (closer to your questions) that they survived an emergency tank transfer at home: A tank cracked and started leaking quickly. In a panic, I transferred the 10 or so mummichogs without paying attention to the fact that I was transferring them from a cold, salt water tank to a warm (10 degrees celsius warmer), fresh water tank... all in a few seconds. They all survived... Anybody working with fish know that few species would tolerate this kind of treatment. --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology / Neuroscience Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada Ethology, ethoendocrinology & ethotoxicology. Behaviour of wild canids and estuarine fish http://www.gadbois.org/ --- On 7-Feb-05, at 12:54 PM, Clare Lewandowski wrote: > start some other discussions! are you all waiting for someone else to > say > something interesting? > Here's a topic. > What basic principles of animal behavior and management can be learned > from > keeping tropical fresh or saltwater fish? > What are species specific needs for water quality? pH, salinity, type > of > salts, temperature, current, dissolved oxygen? > Tank design, is the tank large enough for the fish and with what > ratios of > height, depth, length and type of swimming permitted? How will a > species > change in health or behavior if not given optimal environmental > conditions? > How is this similar to housing poultry, cattle, horses, wolves or > coyotes > and what effect will this have on egg, meat, milk production or > behavior? > How about communal tank design and stocking? What species can be put > together even if predator and prey if conditions are correct? How can > population density with least conflict be managed with environmental > factors > such as rock, logs, coral formations, plants to provide hiding places > or > visual barriers? How does population density affect breeding behavior? > How > much do the same types of factors apply to managing domestic or > non-domestic > animals in captivity? > Clare Lewandowski > From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 7-FEB-2005 12:21:36.34 To: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Behavioural ecotoxicology Hi Simon, Thanks for the info! I hope my question will stimulate more questions. Mummichogs do sound amazing and your work will be interesting. I hope you'll post results of the chemical effects on behavior here. Ah just found a web reference that they are in the killifish family. Some of these can also take some extremes. Desert pupfish I think can also tolerate similar extremes of temperatures and salinity. Scientific American quite some years ago had a fascinating article on them. I would not be surprised if you find many similarities between fish territorial/social behaviors and wolves. Are you studying any cichlids? A pair of kribensis when breeding and raising young are not only beautiful but fascinating to watch. When we had pairs spawn and the fry being escorted around for food, the females show a bright pink belly spot. The fry feed and move in an area near her as long as she shows that color. Should she leave to feed, she fades out and the male will show a bright spot, not quite the same color but the fry then move with him. They are quite strong in defense of the fry, should another fish come near, the parents will both drive the intruder away. When they dash off and the pink spot gets far enough away, the fry sink to the bottom and hold quite still. Discus fish produce a skin excretion that their fry feed on. It would be interesting to know what that excretion is made of. Not something we ever found information on. Please keep us posted on your fish work. regard Clare ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Gadbois" To: "Clare Lewandowski" Cc: Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 9:50 AM Subject: Behavioural ecotoxicology > Hi Clare, > I am going to reinforce the suggestion of new topics... I am not answering > your questions directly, but since you mentioned fish... > I recently (just over a year ago) started doing work with fish (I know, > far from the wolves, still involved with that research though...). I > developed a strong interest in the past few years in the field of > behavioural ecotoxicology. Basically, the study of environmental > neurotoxins and endocrine disruptors on behaviour (in my case, faithful to > ethology, focussing on natural action sequences). A common model in > ecotoxicology of the estuarine/salt marshes environment is the mummichog > (Fundulus heteroclitus), yet, almost nothing is known of its behaviour. > Mummichogs are simply quite amazing as they are the only fish species > living in the Sydney Tar Ponds (likely the most polluted site in Canada, I > would venture to suggest in North America). We are interested in the > neurotransmitter systems and behaviours that are affected by the plethora > of pollutants found in the Tar Ponds. Since mummichogs are common preys of > many shore birds, mink and otters, the impact of the neurotoxins may be > quite substantial on local wildlife. > They are so hardy (closer to your questions) that they survived an > emergency tank transfer at home: A tank cracked and started leaking > quickly. In a panic, I transferred the 10 or so mummichogs without paying > attention to the fact that I was transferring them from a cold, salt water > tank to a warm (10 degrees celsius warmer), fresh water tank... all in a > few seconds. They all survived... Anybody working with fish know that few > species would tolerate this kind of treatment. > > --- > Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Psychology / Neuroscience > Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada > Ethology, ethoendocrinology & ethotoxicology. > Behaviour of wild canids and estuarine fish > http://www.gadbois.org/ > --- > > On 7-Feb-05, at 12:54 PM, Clare Lewandowski wrote: > >> start some other discussions! are you all waiting for someone else to say >> something interesting? >> Here's a topic. >> What basic principles of animal behavior and management can be learned >> from >> keeping tropical fresh or saltwater fish? >> What are species specific needs for water quality? pH, salinity, type of >> salts, temperature, current, dissolved oxygen? >> Tank design, is the tank large enough for the fish and with what ratios >> of >> height, depth, length and type of swimming permitted? How will a species >> change in health or behavior if not given optimal environmental >> conditions? >> How is this similar to housing poultry, cattle, horses, wolves or coyotes >> and what effect will this have on egg, meat, milk production or behavior? >> How about communal tank design and stocking? What species can be put >> together even if predator and prey if conditions are correct? How can >> population density with least conflict be managed with environmental >> factors >> such as rock, logs, coral formations, plants to provide hiding places or >> visual barriers? How does population density affect breeding behavior? >> How >> much do the same types of factors apply to managing domestic or >> non-domestic >> animals in captivity? >> Clare Lewandowski >> > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 > > From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 7-FEB-2005 13:04:52.13 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: RE: Behavioural ecotoxicology No, I have never worked with cichlids, or never kept them. I am interested in our local (Nova Scotia) pipefish though (Syngnathus), being a monogamous species with heavy paternal investment/care (also my interest in wild canids). They seem to inhabit the same brackish water environments as the mummichogs (via seining). Pupfish seem to be fun to study. Another group, the Gnathonemus genus (elephant nose fish) seem to be also quite socially sophisticated, engaging in play behaviour for instance (like the pupfish, from what I understand). I have been trying to get some Gnathonemus petersii here for over a year... No one in Canada can find one... trouble in that part of Africa seem to be a factor for the importation of the species. Wal Mart used to have them! Last time I called Wal Mart (in desperation... a rather unusual way to acquire research subjects) I mentioned that the elephant nose fish was a weakly electric fish... they transferred my call to the electronics department! So yes indeed, fish are much more interesting than I ever expected. I have to admit that despite the fact that all three Nobel Prize laureates for ethology (Lorenz [cichlids], Tinbergen [sticklebacks] and von Frisch [minnows]) had worked with fish, I never really included fish behaviour in my lectures except for the inescapable three-spined stickleback. But for 8 years I did manage to teach extensively on mating systems and social systems without ever mentioning a single fish species. Bad, bad me! --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology / Neuroscience Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada Ethology, ethoendocrinology & ethotoxicology. Behaviour of wild canids and estuarine fish http://www.gadbois.org/ --- On 7-Feb-05, at 2:21 PM, Clare Lewandowski wrote: > Hi Simon, > Thanks for the info! I hope my question will stimulate more questions. > Mummichogs do sound amazing and your work will be interesting. I hope > you'll post results of the chemical effects on behavior here. Ah just > found a web reference that they are in the killifish family. Some of > these can also take some extremes. > Desert pupfish I think can also tolerate similar extremes of > temperatures and salinity. Scientific American quite some years ago > had a fascinating article on them. > I would not be surprised if you find many similarities between fish > territorial/social behaviors and wolves. Are you studying any > cichlids? A pair of kribensis when breeding and raising young are not > only beautiful but fascinating to watch. When we had pairs spawn and > the fry being escorted around for food, the females show a bright pink > belly spot. The fry feed and move in an area near her as long as she > shows that color. Should she leave to feed, she fades out and the male > will show a bright spot, not quite the same color but the fry then > move with him. They are quite strong in defense of the fry, should > another fish come near, the parents will both drive the intruder away. > When they dash off and the pink spot gets far enough away, the fry > sink to the bottom and hold quite still. > Discus fish produce a skin excretion that their fry feed on. It would > be interesting to know what that excretion is made of. Not something > we ever found information on. > Please keep us posted on your fish work. > regard > Clare > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Gadbois" > To: "Clare Lewandowski" > Cc: > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 9:50 AM > Subject: Behavioural ecotoxicology > > >> Hi Clare, >> I am going to reinforce the suggestion of new topics... I am not >> answering your questions directly, but since you mentioned fish... >> I recently (just over a year ago) started doing work with fish (I >> know, far from the wolves, still involved with that research >> though...). I developed a strong interest in the past few years in >> the field of behavioural ecotoxicology. Basically, the study of >> environmental neurotoxins and endocrine disruptors on behaviour (in >> my case, faithful to ethology, focussing on natural action >> sequences). A common model in ecotoxicology of the estuarine/salt >> marshes environment is the mummichog (Fundulus heteroclitus), yet, >> almost nothing is known of its behaviour. Mummichogs are simply quite >> amazing as they are the only fish species living in the Sydney Tar >> Ponds (likely the most polluted site in Canada, I would venture to >> suggest in North America). We are interested in the neurotransmitter >> systems and behaviours that are affected by the plethora of >> pollutants found in the Tar Ponds. Since mummichogs are common preys >> of many shore birds, mink and otters, the impact of the neurotoxins >> may be quite substantial on local wildlife. >> They are so hardy (closer to your questions) that they survived an >> emergency tank transfer at home: A tank cracked and started leaking >> quickly. In a panic, I transferred the 10 or so mummichogs without >> paying attention to the fact that I was transferring them from a >> cold, salt water tank to a warm (10 degrees celsius warmer), fresh >> water tank... all in a few seconds. They all survived... Anybody >> working with fish know that few species would tolerate this kind of >> treatment. >> >> --- >> Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Psychology / Neuroscience >> Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada >> Ethology, ethoendocrinology & ethotoxicology. >> Behaviour of wild canids and estuarine fish >> http://www.gadbois.org/ >> --- >> >> On 7-Feb-05, at 12:54 PM, Clare Lewandowski wrote: >> >>> start some other discussions! are you all waiting for someone else >>> to say >>> something interesting? >>> Here's a topic. >>> What basic principles of animal behavior and management can be >>> learned from >>> keeping tropical fresh or saltwater fish? >>> What are species specific needs for water quality? pH, salinity, >>> type of >>> salts, temperature, current, dissolved oxygen? >>> Tank design, is the tank large enough for the fish and with what >>> ratios of >>> height, depth, length and type of swimming permitted? How will a >>> species >>> change in health or behavior if not given optimal environmental >>> conditions? >>> How is this similar to housing poultry, cattle, horses, wolves or >>> coyotes >>> and what effect will this have on egg, meat, milk production or >>> behavior? >>> How about communal tank design and stocking? What species can be put >>> together even if predator and prey if conditions are correct? How can >>> population density with least conflict be managed with environmental >>> factors >>> such as rock, logs, coral formations, plants to provide hiding >>> places or >>> visual barriers? How does population density affect breeding >>> behavior? How >>> much do the same types of factors apply to managing domestic or >>> non-domestic >>> animals in captivity? >>> Clare Lewandowski >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 >> > > From: IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 7-FEB-2005 16:16:31.58 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: methodological question - science in general and behaviour studies in particular Hi Anna As I understand it (and I'm making no claim to be a biometrician!) the main reason for factorial designs rather than a series of experiments is to eliminate confounding factors eg a series of experiments will be confounded with effects of time (and all that may involve eg differences in environmental conditions) and sometimes different animals involved - so if you were to test males with your drug in one experiment and then some weeks later, test females - you cannot be absolutely certain that the difference (if any!) is due to gender, or the fact that you did the work at different times. Also, if you test your drug with both males and females in housing condition 1 at the same time, then you cannot be sure that there is no carry-over effect of housing condition1 when you later come to test those same animals in housing condition 2. So, you may choose to use different animals to test housing condition 2 - and run into the problem of not knowing if the effect is due to housing or the group of animals. Interactions are an issue with factorial design, but you have to look at what makes sense biologically. Also, you may decide that you will only explore 2 or 3-way interactions and ignore more than that - after all what would a 4 or 5-way interaction mean biologically. Carol Carol Petherick Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Department of Primary Industries & Fisheries Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390 Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: Anna Olsson [mailto:olsson@ibmc.up.pt] Sent: Monday, 7 February 2005 6:44 PM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: methodological question - science in general and behaviour studies in particular Dear All, I wonder if there's still anybody out there with energy for a discussion of a fundamental - philosophical methodological issue, that is relevant for applied ethology as it is relevant for many other disciplines with experimental work. Could anybody present a convincing argument for applying a factorial design with more than 2 or at a maximum 3 factors, rather than setting out to answer the question stepwise in several subsequent experiments? The background to my question is as follows: I recently started reading a number of papers from our neighbouring disciplines behavioural pharmacology and neuroendocrinology for a review, and it didn't take long before I started to come across things like 2x3x3x3 factorial designs. An example: you want to study the effect of housing condition on reaction to a psychoactive drug. You house animals of 2 sexes in 3 housing environments, give them 3 levels of drug concentration and test them at 3 time points after drug administration. I agree - this looks terrific at the design state. But then come analysis and interpretation... What happened to me when reading was: 1) I rapidly gave in on reading the results section and went straight to the discussion (where the authors present results WITH an interpretation), because I can't afford to spend 30-45 minutes per paper to try to sort out what the different interactions may mean 2) I started to ask myself the question I'm now asking the list - what's the point? Unless you're terribly lucky and deal with really large and consistent effects, aren't you bound to get a number of interactions that you will not really know how to interpret? Regards, Anna Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour & Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Faz +351 22 609 9157 ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. --Boundary_(ID_kB536W2a2DdmDwUc/M0LrA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hi Anna

As I understand it (and I’m making no claim to be a biometrician!) the main reason for factorial designs rather than a series of experiments is to eliminate confounding factors eg a series of experiments will be confounded with effects of time (and all that may involve eg differences in environmental conditions) and sometimes different animals involved – so if you were to test males with your drug in one experiment and then some weeks later, test females – you cannot be absolutely certain that the difference (if any!) is due to gender, or the fact that you did the work at different times.  Also, if you test your drug with both males and females in housing condition 1 at the same time, then you cannot be sure that there is no carry-over effect of housing condition1 when you later come to test those same animals in housing condition 2.  So, you may choose to use different animals to test housing condition 2 – and run into the problem of not knowing if the effect is due to housing or the group of animals.

 

Interactions are an issue with factorial design, but you have to look at what makes sense biologically.  Also, you may decide that you will only explore 2 or 3-way interactions and ignore more than that – after all what would a 4 or 5-way interaction mean biologically.

 

Carol

 

Carol Petherick

Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)

Department of Primary Industries & Fisheries

 

Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390

Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Anna Olsson [mailto:olsson@ibmc.up.pt]
Sent: Monday, 7 February 2005 6:44 PM
To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: methodological question - science in general and behaviour studies in particular

 

Dear All,

 

I wonder if there's still anybody out there with energy for a discussion of a fundamental - philosophical methodological issue, that is relevant for applied ethology as it is relevant for many other disciplines with experimental work.

 

Could anybody present a convincing argument for applying a factorial design with more than 2 or at a maximum 3 factors, rather than setting out to answer the question stepwise in several subsequent experiments?

The background to my question is as follows:

I recently started reading a number of papers from our neighbouring disciplines behavioural pharmacology and neuroendocrinology for a review, and it didn't take long before I started to come across things like 2x3x3x3 factorial designs. An example: you want to study the effect of housing condition on reaction to a psychoactive drug. You house animals of 2 sexes in 3 housing environments, give them 3 levels of drug concentration and test them at 3 time points after drug administration. I agree - this looks terrific at the design state. But then come analysis and interpretation... What happened to me when reading was:

1) I rapidly gave in on reading the results section and went straight to the discussion (where the authors present results WITH an interpretation), because I can't afford to spend 30-45 minutes per paper to try to sort out what the different interactions may mean

2) I started to ask myself the question I'm now asking the list - what's the point? Unless you're terribly lucky and deal with really large and consistent effects, aren't you bound to get a number of interactions that you will not really know how to interpret?

 

Regards,

Anna

 

Dr Anna Olsson
Researcher
Animal Behaviour & Welfare - Bioethics

 

Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology
Rua Campo Alegre 823
4150-180 Porto, Portugal
Phone +351 22 607 4900
Faz +351 22 609 9157

********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages 
(which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally 
privileged.  It is intended only for the use of the person or entity 
to which it is addressed.  If you are not the addressee any form of 
disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken 
or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised.  Opinions 
contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions 
of the Queensland Government and its authorities.  If you received 
this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and 
delete it from your computer system network.
--Boundary_(ID_kB536W2a2DdmDwUc/M0LrA)-- From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 7-FEB-2005 17:05:44.54 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Behavioural ecotoxicology I believe there is a relative of the elephant nose fish, similar in overall shape but without the 'nose'. And also had the weak electrical field. It's been close to 20 years since we had our fresh and saltwater tanks but I think at that time they were called baby whales for a common name. The movie Gremlins II with an electric gremlin in the phone line comes to mind with your Wal-Mart story. Have you tried finding out if they've been bred by fish fanciers yet? If so, perhaps some breeder would donate and ship to you for bragging rights. Knife fishes were also considered some of the most advanced as far as brain/spinal cord size to body weight and quite interesting. Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Gadbois" To: "Applied Ethology List" Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:04 AM Subject: Re: Behavioural ecotoxicology > > No, I have never worked with cichlids, or never kept them. I am interested > in our local (Nova Scotia) pipefish though (Syngnathus), being a > monogamous species with heavy paternal investment/care (also my interest > in wild canids). They seem to inhabit the same brackish water environments > as the mummichogs (via seining). > Pupfish seem to be fun to study. Another group, the Gnathonemus genus > (elephant nose fish) seem to be also quite socially sophisticated, > engaging in play behaviour for instance (like the pupfish, from what I > understand). > I have been trying to get some Gnathonemus petersii here for over a > year... No one in Canada can find one... trouble in that part of Africa > seem to be a factor for the importation of the species. Wal Mart used to > have them! Last time I called Wal Mart (in desperation... a rather > unusual way to acquire research subjects) I mentioned that the elephant > nose fish was a weakly electric fish... they transferred my call to the > electronics department! > So yes indeed, fish are much more interesting than I ever expected. I have > to admit that despite the fact that all three Nobel Prize laureates for > ethology (Lorenz [cichlids], Tinbergen [sticklebacks] and von Frisch > [minnows]) had worked with fish, I never really included fish behaviour in > my lectures except for the inescapable three-spined stickleback. But for 8 > years I did manage to teach extensively on mating systems and social > systems without ever mentioning a single fish species. Bad, bad me! > > > --- > Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Psychology / Neuroscience > Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada > Ethology, ethoendocrinology & ethotoxicology. > Behaviour of wild canids and estuarine fish > http://www.gadbois.org/ > --- > > > On 7-Feb-05, at 2:21 PM, Clare Lewandowski wrote: > >> Hi Simon, >> Thanks for the info! I hope my question will stimulate more questions. >> Mummichogs do sound amazing and your work will be interesting. I hope >> you'll post results of the chemical effects on behavior here. Ah just >> found a web reference that they are in the killifish family. Some of >> these can also take some extremes. >> Desert pupfish I think can also tolerate similar extremes of temperatures >> and salinity. Scientific American quite some years ago had a fascinating >> article on them. >> I would not be surprised if you find many similarities between fish >> territorial/social behaviors and wolves. Are you studying any cichlids? A >> pair of kribensis when breeding and raising young are not only beautiful >> but fascinating to watch. When we had pairs spawn and the fry being >> escorted around for food, the females show a bright pink belly spot. The >> fry feed and move in an area near her as long as she shows that color. >> Should she leave to feed, she fades out and the male will show a bright >> spot, not quite the same color but the fry then move with him. They are >> quite strong in defense of the fry, should another fish come near, the >> parents will both drive the intruder away. When they dash off and the >> pink spot gets far enough away, the fry sink to the bottom and hold quite >> still. >> Discus fish produce a skin excretion that their fry feed on. It would be >> interesting to know what that excretion is made of. Not something we ever >> found information on. >> Please keep us posted on your fish work. >> regard >> Clare >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Gadbois" >> To: "Clare Lewandowski" >> Cc: >> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 9:50 AM >> Subject: Behavioural ecotoxicology >> >> >>> Hi Clare, >>> I am going to reinforce the suggestion of new topics... I am not >>> answering your questions directly, but since you mentioned fish... >>> I recently (just over a year ago) started doing work with fish (I know, >>> far from the wolves, still involved with that research though...). I >>> developed a strong interest in the past few years in the field of >>> behavioural ecotoxicology. Basically, the study of environmental >>> neurotoxins and endocrine disruptors on behaviour (in my case, faithful >>> to ethology, focussing on natural action sequences). A common model in >>> ecotoxicology of the estuarine/salt marshes environment is the mummichog >>> (Fundulus heteroclitus), yet, almost nothing is known of its behaviour. >>> Mummichogs are simply quite amazing as they are the only fish species >>> living in the Sydney Tar Ponds (likely the most polluted site in Canada, >>> I would venture to suggest in North America). We are interested in the >>> neurotransmitter systems and behaviours that are affected by the >>> plethora of pollutants found in the Tar Ponds. Since mummichogs are >>> common preys of many shore birds, mink and otters, the impact of the >>> neurotoxins may be quite substantial on local wildlife. >>> They are so hardy (closer to your questions) that they survived an >>> emergency tank transfer at home: A tank cracked and started leaking >>> quickly. In a panic, I transferred the 10 or so mummichogs without >>> paying attention to the fact that I was transferring them from a cold, >>> salt water tank to a warm (10 degrees celsius warmer), fresh water >>> tank... all in a few seconds. They all survived... Anybody working >>> with fish know that few species would tolerate this kind of treatment. >>> >>> --- >>> Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Psychology / Neuroscience >>> Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada >>> Ethology, ethoendocrinology & ethotoxicology. >>> Behaviour of wild canids and estuarine fish >>> http://www.gadbois.org/ >>> --- >>> >>> On 7-Feb-05, at 12:54 PM, Clare Lewandowski wrote: >>> >>>> start some other discussions! are you all waiting for someone else to >>>> say >>>> something interesting? >>>> Here's a topic. >>>> What basic principles of animal behavior and management can be learned >>>> from >>>> keeping tropical fresh or saltwater fish? >>>> What are species specific needs for water quality? pH, salinity, type >>>> of >>>> salts, temperature, current, dissolved oxygen? >>>> Tank design, is the tank large enough for the fish and with what ratios >>>> of >>>> height, depth, length and type of swimming permitted? How will a >>>> species >>>> change in health or behavior if not given optimal environmental >>>> conditions? >>>> How is this similar to housing poultry, cattle, horses, wolves or >>>> coyotes >>>> and what effect will this have on egg, meat, milk production or >>>> behavior? >>>> How about communal tank design and stocking? What species can be put >>>> together even if predator and prey if conditions are correct? How can >>>> population density with least conflict be managed with environmental >>>> factors >>>> such as rock, logs, coral formations, plants to provide hiding places >>>> or >>>> visual barriers? How does population density affect breeding behavior? >>>> How >>>> much do the same types of factors apply to managing domestic or >>>> non-domestic >>>> animals in captivity? >>>> Clare Lewandowski >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 >>> >> >> > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 > > From: IN%"honeyq@ksu.edu" "Kari Wallentine" 7-FEB-2005 19:48:13.37 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology listserv" CC: IN%"bsandman@oznet.ksu.edu" "Benjamin Sandmann" Subj: Preference testing references? I am posting this request for a colleague of mine, Ben Sandmann. Can anyone point Ben in the direction of animal behavior preference testing references? He has found articles pertaining to testing for food preferences, but not specifically relating to behavioral preferences. If you have any questions, please email Ben directly at bsandman@oznet.ksu.edu. I will forward listserv replies to Ben, but feel free to email him directly as well. Thanks! Kari Wallentine, DVM Kansas State University From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 7-FEB-2005 20:43:12.39 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Language and thought In a message dated 2/7/2005 2:21:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, gooddog@dodo.com.au writes: Do you think people can yawn voluntarily? Do you think dogs or people can sneeze voluntarily? I think these behaviors are on the borderline of voluntary and involuntary behavior. We can voluntarily go through most of the motions involved with these activities, but to trigger the reflex itself I have to psyche myself up for the activity and for me this only works for yawning. I suspect that you are tapping into systems other than the regular cortical motor systems. I also suspect that for skilled actors and actresses, they are in voluntary control of these activities the same ways they can cry on demand. Still, I consider these people exceptional and probably very well practiced. I think it is pretty unreasonable to ask an average dog to do this. Interestingly, I read book on ethology claimed the golden hamsters could not be trained to groom on demand for a food reward. I suspect that for hamsters at least, grooming is an activity that is largely stereotyped reflexive and engrossing. If you'll forgive an extreme example that I hope nobody ever tries. Imagine, you smack a dog. Most of the time it may yelp and sometimes it may not. You can try and reward the not yelping behavior by giving it a treat. I would guess that dogs would be very bad at learning not to yelp for three reasons. First, the behavior is largely automatic and reflexive though obviously dogs can yelp voluntarily in other circumstances. Second, and more important is that the experience is probably very overwhelming to the dog. Even if it appreciates the treat, I suspect that the dog is still reeling from the sensations of the event and is only dimly or peripherally aware at all of the fact that they yelped. Finally, The motivational structure of the dog is almost certainly focused on avoiding getting hit. It has competing interests that interfere with its ability to attend to the task we want it to learn. I suspect that reasons like these are why dogs find it difficult to learn to yawn on command and hamsters don't learn to groom for a treat. One last thing to consider. What is voluntary and what is not voluntary is very heavily affected by what mechanisms of awareness are available to the organism about the activity. There is virtually no physiological process that cannot be brought under a degree of voluntary control using biofeedback and the proper incentives. Control of brainwave spectrum, gastrointestinal tone, BP and heart rate, and secretion have all been modified using biofeedback in both humans and animals. Confusing this situation even further, young animals learn these activities much more rapidly and there is a lot of individual variability. I think that the whole notion of voluntary and involuntary may be reaching the end of its definitional utility. Michael Michalchik Neuroscientist, adaptiveai.com From: IN%"pajor@purdue.edu" "Pajor, Edmond A." 7-FEB-2005 22:15:06.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: emily patterson kane I am trying to make contact with Emily Patterson Kane. If anyone has an email that works please let me know. No need to send it to the list just email pajor@purdue.edu thanks Ed Pajor From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" "John R. Lane" 8-FEB-2005 01:16:42.60 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: voluntary and involuntary behaviours: Micheal and Jackie Hello Michael, I know your addressed your post to Jackie but I'd like to throw some more examples in the mix for discussion if I may.. While I have previously disagreed with Jackie on some aspects of her case I do believe that it may indeed be possible to seperate the motor movements in some cases from the reflex that causes them. The following link is to a TV display of a bird show. If you are interested in seeing how a bird can be taught to yawn on cue have a look. The behaviour isn't actually till late in the clip so you might have to wade though a lot of unrelated stuff first. The link is: http://tinyurl.com/62mlz Looking at this there is at the end of the cued behaviour a little involuntary shake off bit that makes it seem to me that this is a real yawn rather than just a similated motor movement one. Perhaps those list members who have much more experience with birds than me might be able to analyse this and comment. My second example for consideration is that I have recently taught an animal to do a playbow for demonstration purposes by the expedient method of naming, bridging/reinforcing and thus capturing out only the first part of a natural stretch routine and putting this on cue as a "bow". To an uncritical audience it looks like the animal is actually doing a "playbow" but it is actually just going through the first part of it's natural stretching routine. I'm not going to bore or offend the list by trying to include it here but I will tape and supply you with video if you have an interest Micheal. I am putting this example up to show that in my experience behaviours (as in the motor movements anyway) can indeed be seperated from the reflex that naturally causes them. The animal in question doesn't do enough playbows naturally to make capturing the real thing a possibility so I used part of another behaviour which it does do regularly a section of which looks very much like the playbow. The animal in question very quickly figured out what I was reinforcing and began to perform it on cue. This I believe shows that it is not beyond the realms of possibility to seperate out the motor movements of any reflex action and put it on cue. Comments? John L. New Zealand. From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" 8-FEB-2005 01:16:43.02 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: the value of this list > We had the dog training discussion (should it be on this list or somewhere else) in August 2003 and the consensus was (correct me if I'm wrong) that dog ethology had a place on the list and that those not interested could delete messages with dog in the heading. Could we not stick to that decision? Thank you Anna, While I wasn't here at the earlier times mentioned I certainly agree in general with all your points and I shall in future unless I feel that a post of mine about training addresses more general scientific principles than just being specific to dog training be putting the word "dog" somewhere in the subject line so those with no interest can delete automatically as they see fit. Regards John L. New Zealand. From: IN%"coape@nildram.co.uk" "Robin Walker" 8-FEB-2005 04:36:31.10 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Language and thought Keep tracking Michael - I think you have crossed the scent trail you are seeking. Go back and cast around again. The core mechanisms that are overlooked - again and again - are the reward floods that come with relief. When heavily signaled punishments or anticipated rewards, cease or fail to arrive, the process of addiction is in train. The dog is uniquely susceptible to this. So are we. The awful addictive process of subjection to religious discipline, military bullying, wife beating and yes, dog punishing by obsessive control freaks, can enslave individuals of many species to self rewarding patterns of behaviour. Perhaps the most dreadful example is the anorexic child in the vile grip of starvation induced endorphin addiction. When folk are not kicking dogs the are slapping girls about the head yelling "eat you silly bitch!" Ray tried to draw attention to this when he mentioned "Stock Holm Syndrome" during one of our traditional "dog fights" on this list. No body listened. Look at nuns cringing along corridor walls, listen to clerics (Christian and Muslim) frothing from their pulpits. No - never mind them - go and look are the graphs of running speeds in the mazes. See the fall in graph as the rewards of relief or escape begin to skew the plots. I was enthralled by all this when the house fire of my stroke crashed the rafters of my mind. Please stop squabbling. There is so much to discover. Robin Walker (a male veterinarian) Lynthorpe Behaviour Referrals -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] Sent: 08 February 2005 02:02 To: gooddog@dodo.com.au; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Language and thought In a message dated 2/7/2005 2:21:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, gooddog@dodo.com.au writes: Do you think people can yawn voluntarily? Do you think dogs or people can sneeze voluntarily? I think these behaviors are on the borderline of voluntary and involuntary behavior. We can voluntarily go through most of the motions involved with these activities, but to trigger the reflex itself I have to psyche myself up for the activity and for me this only works for yawning. I suspect that you are tapping into systems other than the regular cortical motor systems. I also suspect that for skilled actors and actresses, they are in voluntary control of these activities the same ways they can cry on demand. Still, I consider these people exceptional and probably very well practiced. I think it is pretty unreasonable to ask an average dog to do this. Interestingly, I read book on ethology claimed the golden hamsters could not be trained to groom on demand for a food reward. I suspect that for hamsters at least, grooming is an activity that is largely stereotyped reflexive and engrossing. If you'll forgive an extreme example that I hope nobody ever tries. Imagine, you smack a dog. Most of the time it may yelp and sometimes it may not. You can try and reward the not yelping behavior by giving it a treat. I would guess that dogs would be very bad at learning not to yelp for three reasons. First, the behavior is largely automatic and reflexive though obviously dogs can yelp voluntarily in other circumstances. Second, and more important is that the experience is probably very overwhelming to the dog. Even if it appreciates the treat, I suspect that the dog is still reeling from the sensations of the event and is only dimly or peripherally aware at all of the fact that they yelped. Finally, The motivational structure of the dog is almost certainly focused on avoiding getting hit. It has competing interests that interfere with its ability to attend to the task we want it to learn. I suspect that reasons like these are why dogs find it difficult to learn to yawn on command and hamsters don't learn to groom for a treat. One last thing to consider. What is voluntary and what is not voluntary is very heavily affected by what mechanisms of awareness are available to the organism about the activity. There is virtually no physiological process that cannot be brought under a degree of voluntary control using biofeedback and the proper incentives. Control of brainwave spectrum, gastrointestinal tone, BP and heart rate, and secretion have all been modified using biofeedback in both humans and animals. Confusing this situation even further, young animals learn these activities much more rapidly and there is a lot of individual variability. I think that the whole notion of voluntary and involuntary may be reaching the end of its definitional utility. Michael Michalchik Neuroscientist, adaptiveai.com From: IN%"Nabilbrandl@privat.dk" "Nabil Brandl" 8-FEB-2005 04:36:31.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "a-ethology" CC: Subj: Aggressive behaviour within ethologists Dear Ethologists I observed on this list aggressive behaviour from some ethologists, who are angry toward some mails. Aggressive behaviour is the opposit of logical behaviour. If you donot like any mails, you just press on DELETE key. Do not make the bad e-mails as big problem. Aggressive behaviour stimulate fighting behaviour amoung pigs, when they meet a strange pig in the pig sti. Best regards Nabil Brandl e-mail: NabilBrandl@tiscali.dk e-mail: nabilbrandl@privat.dk e-mail: nabilbrandl@orangenet.dk e-mail: nabilbrandl1@excite.com http://nabilnabil.homestead.com http://home20.inet.tele.dk/nabilbrandl/nabil.html Skype Me! From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 8-FEB-2005 05:55:55.63 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Language and thought I believe Ray quoted this 'dog trainer's' article http://www.flyingdogpress.com/hostage.html And a respected 'dog' expert Steven Lindsay thoroughly described safety signal reward pathways and its influence on behavior in his books. Human risk taking behavior, self rewarding behavior, also has this reward pathway. Funny how the very critics of those discussing those lowly dog topics will quote or learn from some of those they are complaining about. Clare ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Walker To: Michalchik@aol.com ; gooddog@dodo.com.au ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:58 PM Subject: RE: Language and thought Keep tracking Michael - I think you have crossed the scent trail you are seeking. Go back and cast around again. The core mechanisms that are overlooked - again and again - are the reward floods that come with relief. When heavily signaled punishments or anticipated rewards, cease or fail to arrive, the process of addiction is in train. The dog is uniquely susceptible to this. So are we. The awful addictive process of subjection to religious discipline, military bullying, wife beating and yes, dog punishing by obsessive control freaks, can enslave individuals of many species to self rewarding patterns of behaviour. Perhaps the most dreadful example is the anorexic child in the vile grip of starvation induced endorphin addiction. When folk are not kicking dogs the are slapping girls about the head yelling "eat you silly bitch!" Ray tried to draw attention to this when he mentioned "Stock Holm Syndrome" during one of our traditional "dog fights" on this list. No body listened. Look at nuns cringing along corridor walls, listen to clerics (Christian and Muslim) frothing from their pulpits. No - never mind them - go and look are the graphs of running speeds in the mazes. See the fall in graph as the rewards of relief or escape begin to skew the plots. I was enthralled by all this when the house fire of my stroke crashed the rafters of my mind. Please stop squabbling. There is so much to discover. Robin Walker (a male veterinarian) Lynthorpe Behaviour Referrals -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] Sent: 08 February 2005 02:02 To: gooddog@dodo.com.au; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Language and thought In a message dated 2/7/2005 2:21:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, gooddog@dodo.com.au writes: Do you think people can yawn voluntarily? Do you think dogs or people can sneeze voluntarily? I think these behaviors are on the borderline of voluntary and involuntary behavior. We can voluntarily go through most of the motions involved with these activities, but to trigger the reflex itself I have to psyche myself up for the activity and for me this only works for yawning. I suspect that you are tapping into systems other than the regular cortical motor systems. I also suspect that for skilled actors and actresses, they are in voluntary control of these activities the same ways they can cry on demand. Still, I consider these people exceptional and probably very well practiced. I think it is pretty unreasonable to ask an average dog to do this. Interestingly, I read book on ethology claimed the golden hamsters could not be trained to groom on demand for a food reward. I suspect that for hamsters at least, grooming is an activity that is largely stereotyped reflexive and engrossing. If you'll forgive an extreme example that I hope nobody ever tries. Imagine, you smack a dog. Most of the time it may yelp and sometimes it may not. You can try and reward the not yelping behavior by giving it a treat. I would guess that dogs would be very bad at learning not to yelp for three reasons. First, the behavior is largely automatic and reflexive though obviously dogs can yelp voluntarily in other circumstances. Second, and more important is that the experience is probably very overwhelming to the dog. Even if it appreciates the treat, I suspect that the dog is still reeling from the sensations of the event and is only dimly or peripherally aware at all of the fact that they yelped. Finally, The motivational structure of the dog is almost certainly focused on avoiding getting hit. It has competing interests that interfere with its ability to attend to the task we want it to learn. I suspect that reasons like these are why dogs find it difficult to learn to yawn on command and hamsters don't learn to groom for a treat. One last thing to consider. What is voluntary and what is not voluntary is very heavily affected by what mechanisms of awareness are available to the organism about the activity. There is virtually no physiological process that cannot be brought under a degree of voluntary control using biofeedback and the proper incentives. Control of brainwave spectrum, gastrointestinal tone, BP and heart rate, and secretion have all been modified using biofeedback in both humans and animals. Confusing this situation even further, young animals learn these activities much more rapidly and there is a lot of individual variability. I think that the whole notion of voluntary and involuntary may be reaching the end of its definitional utility. Michael Michalchik Neuroscientist, adaptiveai.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 8-FEB-2005 10:36:56.81 To: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" "John R. Lane" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" Subj: RE: voluntary and involuntary behaviours: Micheal and Jackie If I may say one thing about this post... I think both of you confuse=20= "reflex" and FAP (fixed action pattern; or whatever you want to call=20 it, MAP, NAS, etc...). A play bow is much more complex (in the=20 ethological and neuroethological perspective) than a reflex. Shepherd=20 (1994) in his Neurobiology textbook has the best explanation of the=20 distinction between the two. If Barlow was here, he would likely argue=20= that the play bow is a MAP (modal action pattern) has it has some=20 flexibility as how "modulated" in time and space it can be, and,=20 arguably, from John's post, can be triggered via learning. The boundary=20= between FAP and MAP is subtle and unclear, and, as many argue, may not=20= even be necessary. In fact, Shepherd gives quite a "modern" definition=20= of the ethologist's FAP. Simon --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology / Neuroscience Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada Ethology, ethoendocrinology & ethotoxicology. Behaviour of wild canids and estuarine fish http://www.gadbois.org/ --- On 8-Feb-05, at 2:32 AM, John R. Lane wrote: > Hello Michael, > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I know your = addressed your post to Jackie but I'd=20 > like to throw some more examples in the mix for discussion if I may.. > =A0 > While I have previously disagreed with Jackie on some aspects of her=20= > case I do believe that=A0it may indeed be possible to seperate the = motor=20 > movements=A0in some cases from the reflex that causes them. > =A0 > The following link is to a TV display of a bird show. If you are=20 > interested in seeing how a bird can be taught to yawn on cue have a=20 > look. The behaviour isn't actually till late in the clip so you might=20= > have to wade though a lot of unrelated stuff first. > =A0 > The link is: http://tinyurl.com/62mlz=A0 > =A0 > =A0Looking at this there is at the end of the cued behaviour a little=20= > involuntary shake off bit that makes it seem to me that this is a real=20= > yawn rather than just a similated motor movement one. > Perhaps those list members who have much more experience with birds=20 > than me might be able to analyse this and comment. > =A0 > =A0My second example for consideration is that I have recently taught = an=20 > animal to do a playbow=A0 for demonstration purposes by the expedient=20= > method of naming, bridging/reinforcing and thus capturing=A0out only=20= > the=A0first part of a natural stretch=A0routine and putting this on = cue as=20 > a "bow". > =A0 > =A0To an uncritical audience it looks like the animal is actually = doing=20 > a "playbow" but it is actually just going through the first part of=20 > it's natural stretching routine. > =A0 > I'm not going to bore or offend the list by trying to include it here=20= > but I will tape and supply you with video if you have an interest=20 > Micheal. > =A0 > =A0 I am putting this example up=A0to show that in my experience=20 > behaviours (as in the motor movements anyway)=A0can indeed be = seperated=20 > from the reflex that naturally causes them. > =A0 > =A0 The animal in question doesn't do enough=A0 playbows naturally to = make=20 > capturing the real thing a possibility so I used part of another=20 > behaviour which it does do regularly a section of which=A0looks very=20= > much like the playbow. > =A0 > =A0The animal in question very quickly figured out what I was=20 > reinforcing and began to perform it on cue. This I believe shows that=20= > it is not beyond the realms of possibility to seperate out the motor=20= > movements of any reflex action and put it on cue. > =A0 > Comments? > =A0 > John L. > New Zealand. From: IN%"mappleby@hsus.org" "Michael Appleby" 8-FEB-2005 10:37:29.79 To: IN%"honeyq@ksu.edu" "Kari Wallentine", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology listserv" CC: IN%"bsandman@oznet.ksu.edu" "Benjamin Sandmann" Subj: RE: Preference testing references? Dear Kari and Ben I recommend Chapter 11 on Preference and Motivation Testing by D. Fraser and L.R. Matthews in Appleby, M.C. & Hughes, B.O. (Eds) 1997. Animal Welfare. CAB International, Oxfordshire. There will have been other, useful references since, but that would be a good start. If you can't get hold of it, I could email you a preprint. Mike Michael C. Appleby (Dr) Vice-President Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture The Humane Society of the United States 2100 L Street, NW Washington, DC 20037, USA Switchboard 1 202 452 1100 Direct 1 301 258 3111 Fax 1 301 258 3081 Email mappleby@hsus.org -----Original Message----- From: Kari Wallentine [mailto:honeyq@ksu.edu] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 7:46 PM To: Applied-ethology listserv Cc: Benjamin Sandmann Subject: Preference testing references? I am posting this request for a colleague of mine, Ben Sandmann. Can anyone point Ben in the direction of animal behavior preference testing references? He has found articles pertaining to testing for food preferences, but not specifically relating to behavioral preferences. If you have any questions, please email Ben directly at bsandman@oznet.ksu.edu. I will forward listserv replies to Ben, but feel free to email him directly as well. Thanks! Kari Wallentine, DVM Kansas State University From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" 8-FEB-2005 11:16:36.80 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Reflex V MAP or FAP If Barlow was here, he would likely argue > that the play bow is a MAP (modal action pattern) has it has some > flexibility as how "modulated" in time and space it can be, and, > arguably, from John's post, can be triggered via learning. The boundary > between FAP and MAP is subtle and unclear, and, as many argue, may not > even be necessary. In fact, Shepherd gives quite a "modern" definition > of the ethologist's FAP. Thank you Simon for your clarification. Would you be so kind as to give me references to find the works mentioned please? John L. New Zealand From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 8-FEB-2005 11:31:14.34 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: RE: Reflex V MAP or FAP Sure: Shepherd, Gordon (1994). Neurobiology. Oxford University Press. [it is possible there is newer edition. I used this book in the past for a behavioural neuroscience course, it is excellent coverage of neurobiology with a real concern for comparative neuroethology] Barlow, G. W. (1977). Modal action patterns. In "How Animals Communicate", T.A. Sebeok (ed.). Indiana University Press. [after the many papers on FAP's in the 40's, 50's and 60's, some ethologists and neuroethologists became uneasy with the "rigidity" suggested by the early literature on FAP's, Barlow, Schleidt and a few others wrote a number of reviews and criticisms of the concept but none really stuck. Barlow's concept is, at least in his probabilistic description of MAP, an interesting insight into what future ethologists , e.g., Fentress, Berridge, would simply describe as "natural action sequences", a term more neutral, not committing anything in terms of the rigidity, predictability, length of the sequences]. --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology / Neuroscience Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada Ethology, ethoendocrinology & ethotoxicology. Behaviour of wild canids and estuarine fish http://www.gadbois.org/ --- On 8-Feb-05, at 1:16 PM, k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz wrote: > If Barlow was here, he would likely argue >> that the play bow is a MAP (modal action pattern) has it has some >> flexibility as how "modulated" in time and space it can be, and, >> arguably, from John's post, can be triggered via learning. The >> boundary >> between FAP and MAP is subtle and unclear, and, as many argue, may not >> even be necessary. In fact, Shepherd gives quite a "modern" definition >> of the ethologist's FAP. > > > Thank you Simon for your clarification. Would you be so kind as to > give me references to find the works mentioned please? > > John L. > New Zealand > > > From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 8-FEB-2005 15:14:18.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: Dog Training and Canine Ethology Yes, there are any amount of dog TRAINING lists. But not as far as a know a list devoted to 'canine ethology'. And of course, if you are interested in canine ethology, the ethology of other species is also interesting. Jenny Haskins BSc, DipEd, Grad Dip App Sc Coffs Harbour, Australia Jackie, Why is there only this one? I mean is it just because a number of people devoted to dog training (as opposed to dog/coyote/wolf behavior) have commandeered this list (which was begun for entirely different purposes) and gotten used to it? It seems to me it is not so very hard to set up a list of your own using yahoo, if you and enough other dog training people wanted to do so. People do it all the time. It just takes one person with initiative. Marlene Halverson From: IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 8-FEB-2005 15:53:40.03 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology (E-mail)" Subj: RE: methodological question - science in general and behaviour studies in particular Anna I think it comes back to how you view a population sample eg when I conduct a factorial design experiment with my cattle, I select the experimental animals from a larger group and they are, thus, a sample of that population and the treatments are applied to those animals. If, however, I was to do a series of experiments then I may select my first experimental animals from one group, and at a later time select my next sample of experimental animals from a different group. These cattle all come from the same breeding herd (say) and are genetically very similar, but there could have been environmental influences or GxE effects that make the 2 groups different. A way around this could be to select your animals for both experiments at the same time from the one larger population, but the issue then is that if you apply treatments to them at different times they will be different ages, may have had some additional experiences etc. Yes, resources are certainly an issue! I envy people who work with animals with short lifespans, that breed quickly and have multiple offspring and are small and relatively cheap! It costs me tens of thousands of $$ to get enough cattle and follow them through just from weaning to slaughter, without breeding them and working with their offspring!! Carol Carol Petherick Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Department of Primary Industries & Fisheries Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390 Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: Anna Olsson [mailto:olsson@ibmc.up.pt] Sent: Tuesday, 8 February 2005 8:47 PM To: Petherick, Carol Subject: Re: methodological question - science in general and behaviour studies in particular Hi Carol, Thanks for responding to my question. There's one point I don't get maybe I'm misunderstanding you?: On the other hand, having been pregnant four and a bit times, and having > owned and trained dogs, and attending dog training classses while pregnant, > I can tell you that I *never* found any aggression from dogs while pregnant. > If anything, the reverse. Dogs, and even more so bitches, tend to find > endlessly interesting. > > I suspect that the woman involved has become more afraid, and/or more > aggressive towards the dog. That sounds about right. From the scanty information provided, it sounds as if the woman were already afraid of the dog, or at least uneasy with it, before the pregnancy. In this case referral to specialists who deal with the manifestations and management of canine aggression might be the most appropriate course. I can provide such a referral (I am not a dog trainer, but know some people who are ). I can, furthermore, provide it without the condescension which has been all too apparent in some of the comments to this list. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" "John R. Lane" 8-FEB-2005 22:25:39.99 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: can we please now just get on with it? Hi all, As a dog trainer I have to say that Anna outlined the consensus and resulting compromise that was worked out before many of us arrived very well. Because it was before many of us arrived a large number of us were perhaps not aware of it or the procedure worked out to resolve conflicts in this area. It isn't publicised in any joining file etc. However now I am I think it is a good working compromise. I don't feel any longer that I have to battle anyone for my place on this list. I can just ignore those who chose to react adversely to my presence. I would like to ask both sides of this debate to please review Anna's post and then perhaps we can all adopt the conflict resolution solution contained in it and then move on to what we all originally came here for. To learn and discuss the ethology of our personal chosen species with all that entails without all the destructive side issues. Regards John L. New Zealand. From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" "John R. Lane" 9-FEB-2005 03:49:15.76 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: dog: reinforcements of M.A.P.s Hi Judy, Yes it was a dog. You were indeed lucky to have your animal do enough "playbows" naturally to be able reinforce the sequence often enough.. Mine didn't so I had to find some other way of geting the behaviour in the time I wanted for the demo. If she had then it certainly could have been done your way. I think there may be one important difference in the way we achieved this behaviour however. A "proper" playbow is a concious soliciting action on the part of the dog in response to an external stimuli. This I think means a very high level of awareness of it's actions. A stretch on the other hand (I think but I stand to be corrected if wrong) is not a concious action in response to an external stimuli. It is a response to an internal stimuli. It may as Simon pointed out be an M.A.P. (I haven't yet had a chance to read up your reference Simon but thank you) rather than a true reflex action but I think the level of awareness of its actions because of this would be much lower. I also managed to isolate only part of the M.A.P. and reproduce only this not the complete sequence of the stretching routine. To draw a parrarel with another action. I think it is generally accepted that a dog cannot when it shakes to dry its fur only shake one part of its body for example just it's neck or back or whatever. It must continue the shake action till it has completely shaken its whole body. What I achieved I think is the equivelant of getting the dog to learn to conciously shake only it's neck. It is the same (at least with this dog). When it stretches on arising it always stretches in a full F.A.P. It first stretches back and down in the front. A part of this produces the position for the stylized playbow I captured. Then it stretches forward and lowers its rump before moving off. Actually if it doesn't do this procedure because it has been woken from a deep sleep and asked to do something it often looks a physical wreck for its first few movements. So in effect I think I have actually interrupted a Fixed Action Pattern capturing only a small part of it for the animal to reproduce rather than just getting the animal to repeat the full behaviour as you have done. Thoughts? From: IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" "Donald Broom" 9-FEB-2005 12:37:36.75 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Action patterns Action Patterns Further to the information from Simon Gadbois, I wrote a 20 page review of the subject of action patterns, referring to detailed behaviour analysis and brain studies, in Chapter 3 of my book "Biology of Behaviour" (Broom D.M. 1981, Cambridge University Press). I think that few people talk about "fixed" or "modal" nowadays but the idea of action patterns is useful. "Fixed" could be taken to mean entirely genetically determined and no behaviour is. It could also mean never varying and only the very briefest sequences are. Modal is a better description but does not add much so it is best to use neither of these words in my view. Don Broom From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 9-FEB-2005 16:04:22.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: Domesticated Foxes URL Does this count as ethology? http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050207/full/050207-3.html Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour, Australia From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 9-FEB-2005 17:09:11.95 To: IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" "Donald Broom" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Action patterns Hi Don, I agree with your comment on the terms FAP and MAP, John Fentress and myself always write about "natural action sequences", leaving plenty of room for any type of action sequences independently of length, internal control, external factors, etc. By avoiding even the use of the term "pattern", it may be going too far in describing stochastically insignificant sequences (i.e., low predictability/close to random), but it keeps the mind open in the continuum between completely deterministic sequences and completely random ones. My experience with food caching sequences in wild canids is that you travel across that continuum in surprising ways... (e.g., Fentress and Gadbois, 2001). SG --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology / Neuroscience Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada Ethology, ethoendocrinology & ethotoxicology. Behaviour of wild canids and estuarine fish http://www.gadbois.org/ --- On 9-Feb-05, at 2:42 PM, Donald Broom wrote: > Action Patterns > > Further to the information from Simon Gadbois, I wrote a 20 page > review of the subject of action patterns, referring to detailed > behaviour analysis and brain studies, in Chapter 3 of my book "Biology > of Behaviour" (Broom D.M. 1981, Cambridge University Press). I think > that few people talk about "fixed" or "modal" nowadays but the idea of > action patterns is useful. "Fixed" could be taken to mean entirely > genetically determined and no behaviour is. It could also mean never > varying and only the very briefest sequences are. Modal is a better > description but does not add much so it is best to use neither of > these words in my view. > > Don Broom > > From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 9-FEB-2005 17:09:17.98 To: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" Subj: RE: Domesticated Foxes URL Sure! It is actually based on Belyaev's seminal work on artificially=20 selected docility in farm foxes. Fascinating work! --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology / Neuroscience Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada Ethology, ethoendocrinology & ethotoxicology. Behaviour of wild canids and estuarine fish http://www.gadbois.org/ --- On 9-Feb-05, at 6:08 PM, Jenny Haskins wrote: > Does this count as ethology? > =A0 > http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050207/full/050207-3.html > =A0 > Jenny Haskins > Coffs Harbour, Australia From: IN%"chris.redenbach@gmail.com" "Chris Redenbach" 9-FEB-2005 18:30:42.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Domesticated Foxes URL Simon and others, What factors may most likely be at play in this experiment with docile vs wild foxes? I don't know lots about fox behavior nor how they interact with each other in a captive population that has been bred in captivity for a long time. Perhaps even the ones not selected for docility towards humans are more social with each other than a wild population might be. So do they all tend to engage in orienting toward something (sight, noise, odor) that another is orienting towards? Do you suppose the docile foxes are simply more relaxed and therefore free to observe what the human is orienting towards (the cached food)? Whereas the wilder foxes are more concerned with their own orientation towards the only potential threat (the human) in a room where there may be no place to hide. So they would be reluctant to stop observing the human for his next potential move long enough to observe or respond to the human's orienting gaze? To say this has to do with cleverness or social intelligence seems quite an unjustifiable leap even for those of us who enjoy seeing as much intelligence in animals as possible. But I guess one would have to know if foxes observe the gaze of other non rival foxes to orient towards something else and to know how foxes in avoidance normally act...presumably they would want to observe that which they fear as long as they cannot get away from it. And how did they eliminate the possiblility that the foxes could smell the food and only the more docile ones felt relaxed enough to pay attention to it? What else might be going on here? What other things did they do that we perhaps weren't told about in this article? Chris Redenbach On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:08:04 -0400, Simon Gadbois wrote: > Sure! It is actually based on Belyaev's seminal work on artificially > selected docility in farm foxes. Fascinating work! > > --- > Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Psychology / Neuroscience > Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada > Ethology, ethoendocrinology & ethotoxicology. > Behaviour of wild canids and estuarine fish > http://www.gadbois.org/ > --- > > On 9-Feb-05, at 6:08 PM, Jenny Haskins wrote: > > > Does this count as ethology? > > > > http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050207/full/050207-3.html > > > > Jenny Haskins > > Coffs Harbour, Australia > > From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 10-FEB-2005 04:59:38.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: book request Dear all, I'm looking for 1) a second-hand bookstore in the UK which specializes in life sciences / natural history and ships internationally 2) a copy of Peter Crowcroft's book Mice all over With the hope that this somewhat unusual information request does not disturb any sensitive souls... Anna Olsson Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 10-FEB-2005 05:08:27.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: removing individuals from a stable group Dear all, When animals are regrouped in a way that means that previously unfamiliar individuals are housed together, we expect an initial increase in aggression until the hierarchy has established, and there are many studies showing that this actually happens. I'm interested in a somewhat different situation, when individuals are removed from a group without new individuals being added. Even though there is no confrontation of unfamiliar individuals, the previous hierarchy will be disturbed and it seems to me that a new one will have to be established. Does anybody knew of scientific studies of this phenomenon in any species? I'm only aware of a Sapolsky study with baboons, where the dominant male was removed and aggression escalated between the remaining males. Regards, Anna Olsson Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"lboyle@MOOREPARK.TEAGASC.IE" "Laura Boyle" 10-FEB-2005 06:08:30.08 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: removing individuals from a stable group Hi Anna, We've just completed a study that looked at the effect of slaughtering the two heaviest pigs in mixed and single sex groups one to two weeks prior to the others. We're just analysing the results but it looks like the disruption in the dominance hierarchy stimulated aggression in the groups of male pigs. The females, on the other hand, appeared to benefit from the reduction in group size. They had lower skin lesion scores at slaughter than groups of females that were not reduced. Another study that removed some individuals from groups of pigs was presented by Rydhmer et al. at the EAAP in Slovenia last year. Best regards, Laura On 10 Feb 2005 at 11:11, Anna Olsson wrote: Dear all, When animals are regrouped in a way that means that previously unfamiliar individuals are housed together, we expect an initial increase in aggression until the hierarchy has established, and there are many studies showing that this actually happens. I'm interested in a somewhat different situation, when individuals are removed from a group without new individuals being added. Even though there is no confrontation of unfamiliar individuals, the previous hierarchy will be disturbed and it seems to me that a new one will have to be established. Does anybody knew of scientific studies of this phenomenon in any species? I'm only aware of a Sapolsky study with baboons, where the dominant male was removed and aggression escalated between the remaining males. Regards, Anna Olsson Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 Laura Boyle Ph.D., Teagasc, Moorepark Research Centre, Fermoy, Co. Cork, IRELAND. Telephone: +353-25-42389 Fax : +353-25-42340 From: IN%"santa@kersur.net" "Gwenyth Santagate" 10-FEB-2005 06:38:29.20 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Equine Farewells? Hi all. I have a question. I'd like to know if anyone has observed the following behavior in horses when a stable-mate is "passing" ... ?? I just had to have my 40+ year old mini-donk Jenny put down. She became cast in the paddock in snow and never fully recovered over a 2 week period of time with diligent attention and care. As I was in the stall with my vet tranq-ing her for euthanasia, each one of my horses came up to the gate, hung his/her head over and down, then proceeded to lick his/her lips until the entire muzzle was white froth. Then, that one would leave and the other would come up. This behavior was repeated for all 5 of the horses who were in nose-touching reach of the Jenny when she was here. Even down to my 20 month old Filly. She did the same thing. All for the same time. The rest of the day they hung in one group, not even grazing, and the entire farm was very subdued in atmosphere. All of the 17 Equine here were subdued and quiet even though some of them never "met" the donk. The Jenny's paddock-mate, another mini gelding, WAILED as her body was removed later on in the day and at that time, all the horses turned to her and lowered their heads with soft mumblings. No one freaked out. Just quietly standing with their heads down. Even the TB who was VERY attached to the donk. My take on this is that they were each saying "Goodbye" in a display of the highest respect - lowered head and licking lips. Anyone else ever observe this type of thing with horses? *S* --Gwen "The wonderful part of life is that there is meaning on every level, and there are points of growth and fulfillment on every level." Gwenyth Browning Jones Santagate, NHP, NHCP, PPT PENZANCE www.thepenzancehorse.com www.barefoottrim.com http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/natural_horsemanship From: IN%"M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl" 10-FEB-2005 07:34:10.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: pregnant woman and aggresive dog #2 dear Chris and other respondents to my first mail on the above subject. Thanks for all the responses and the valuable ideas. A second case of a dog changing its behaviour when its female owner was preagant, has come to my attention today which clarifies a lot of things. This second case is a female veterinarian, who now has two children and who owns a very difficult, intact and dominant German Shepherd male. The vet is an experienced dog woman, who owned and still owns several dogs, some of which were abandoned by their owners due to behavioural difficulties. This Shepherd has bitten several children as wel as adults, but behaves well at home, unless friends of the two children are visiting. Then, aggressive behaviour is likely to occur and the dog is put in a bench to prevent damage. The vet and her husband have a good command over this dog, although both have constantly to put effort in it. The dog was in the family before the vet got her two children. During the second half of both pregnancies, she noticed that this dog became disobedient and unruly when on and off leash while walking the dog. In the house, there was not an increase of problems. She had to put considerably more effort into getting this dog obedient again when walking this dog. Aggression towards the owners did not occur, however. Some months after birth of both babies this effect weaned off. The interesting point is that the same behavioural changes were observed when this woman had the flue or felt otherwise ill. This has occurred on several occasions adn control was regained by demanding extra obedience excersises . So the most likely interpretation seems to be that this very dominant and aggressive dog responded when noticing a "weakness" in the behaviour of the owner. This makes a hormonal cause (the dog noticing a hormonal change in the owner) unlikely. This also suggests that pregnancy is not a special type of cause, but simply one of the instances where a female owner seems to be appreciated as " weaker" by her dog. Such cases are therefore also not limited to woman. I am sure readers will know of examples where a man became ill or crippled and lost control over his dog, permanently or temporalily. I know of several of these cases in my case load. Answering a question by Chris, I wish to make clear what I mean by a " dominant type dog". I have written about concepts of dominance on several occasions, in this list and in scientific papers. (see for example Schilder, 1988 on zebras, van Dierendonck et al on horses (1995). A dominance relationship is best seen as a result of an assessment procedure, during which two beings asses their asymmetry in resource holding potential. Aggressive behaviour is not a part of this assessment procedure per se, but may be included if assessment " at first sight' fails. Then an aggressive contest may arise, which may lead to a defeat for one of the contestants. If this looser recognizes its loss, then a dominance relationship is settled. If, however, the looser refuses to accept its loss, then the conflict remains unsettled, a dominance relationship uncertain, and future conflicts highly likely. In the case of human-dog relationships, it seems that most dogs accept human dominance,most likely because we, as humans, behave ourselves while moving aroud in a high posture. Dogs seem to recognize this and act accordingly . This posturing is the dog's main metacommunicative sign of dominance, as has been has been shown by van Hooff en Wensing for wolves, and by Netto and van de Borg (unfortunately unpublised) for dogs. Conflicts which involve dogs are more likely, when they perceive this asymmetry in their relationship with a certain human as deminishing or small. Their assessment may be influenced by behaviours which the dog interprets as signs of weakness. Signs of weakness could be: lying down, walking slowly, reacting less quickly or decesively, walking in an abnormal, crippled way etc. A dominant type of dog, in my view, is a dog, that during conflicts walks around in a high posture, and succeeds in winning asessments or other conflicts with several or even many contestants. Even if one punishes such a dog, it may give in for a few months or so but then may try again to retake what was lost. These dogs may react within minutes, hours or some days when signs of weakness are perceived. Experience suggests that this type of dogs is relatively rare. Other, less dominant types of dogs, may give in after just one loss. One of the other dogs of the female veterinarian mentioned above was just such a case: after one attempt to bite her this dog was severely punished by her and after that no problems ever occurred again. All this does not exclude that more lenient and submissive dogs may win control and get a higher position in a rank order. I recall a very submissive dog which was owned by an even more lenient and friendly owner. This dog was almost " forced" to take command and in doing so bit its owner seriously on several occations. Such a dog, even if it had a reached a dominant status in that particular relationship, is likely to revert to a submissive status when confronted with a more dominant person. However, the danger is that such a dog has learned to use aggressive means to get its way. Even fear biters may win a certain degree of control in this way and finally may reach a dominant status within a relationship with a person. But I would not call these a domminant type of dog. Thanks for the attention, Matthijs Schilder From: IN%"tuuli.kontio@pp.inet.fi" "Tuuli-Susanna Kontio" 10-FEB-2005 08:19:58.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Unsubscribe Sorry, just can't help asking: Can't you people really read/fallow the _very_ simple instructions on the USASK website? To unsubscribe : 1) Send an e-mail message to APPLIED-ETHOLOGY-REQUEST@SASK.USASK.CA 2) In the body of the message (not in the subject line) type : UNSUBSCRIBE APPLIED-ETHOLOGY your email address (Example: UNSUBSCRIBE APPLIED-ETHOLOGY ethologist@university.com) Cheers, Tuuli ----- Original Message ----- From: "John-Robert Acton, www.greenblue.tk" To: Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 3:38 PM Subject: Unsubscribe > I'd really like to unsubscribe still! From: IN%"sbremnerharrison@esrp.csustan.edu" "Sam Bremner-Harrison" 10-FEB-2005 11:09:30.85 To: IN%"chris.redenbach@gmail.com" "Chris Redenbach", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Domesticated Foxes URL I haven't had a chance to read the actual publication yet, just the nature article and abstract so wouldn't like to comment too much on the conclusions until I do so. However, in studies I've done of shyness/boldness in both wild and captive swift fox, captive foxes were far more relaxed in the presence of a human than wild foxes. I'd imagine that in an 'open field test' such as this simulates, the captive foxes would be more inclined to move around within the environment and investigate food hiding places than the wild individuals, although I'd expect variation within each group. When placing novel stimuli in both captive swift and island foxes enclosures, I've observed foxes that could not see the stimulus from their original position often re-orient themselves to look in the same direction as a conspecific who can see the stimulus, so it may well be that domesticated silver foxes are taking these cues from humans. I'm looking forward to reading the whole article, should be really interesting. best wishes, Sam Dr Samantha Bremner-Harrison Research Wildlife Biologist Endangered Species Recovery Program CSU Stanislaus P.O. Box 9622 Bakersfield CA 93389 Office: 661 835 7810 Cell: 661 549 8678 Email: sbremnerharrison@esrp.csustan.edu http://esrp.csustan.edu/csus/ At 19:30 2/9/2005 -0500, Chris Redenbach wrote: >Simon and others, > >What factors may most likely be at play in this experiment with docile >vs wild foxes? I don't know lots about fox behavior nor how they >interact with each other in a captive population that has been bred in >captivity for a long time. Perhaps even the ones not selected for >docility towards humans are more social with each other than a wild >population might be. So do they all tend to engage in orienting toward >something (sight, noise, odor) that another is orienting towards? > >Do you suppose the docile foxes are simply more relaxed and therefore >free to observe what the human is orienting towards (the cached >food)? Whereas the wilder foxes are more concerned with their own >orientation towards the only potential threat (the human) in a room >where there may be no place to hide. So they would be reluctant to >stop observing the human for his next potential move long enough to >observe or respond to the human's orienting gaze? > >To say this has to do with cleverness or social intelligence seems >quite an unjustifiable leap even for those of us who enjoy seeing as >much intelligence in animals as possible. But I guess one would have >to know if foxes observe the gaze of other non rival foxes to orient >towards something else and to know how foxes in avoidance normally >act...presumably they would want to observe that which they fear as >long as they cannot get away from it. > >And how did they eliminate the possiblility that the foxes could smell >the food and only the more docile ones felt relaxed enough to pay >attention to it? > >What else might be going on here? What other things did they do that >we perhaps weren't told about in this article? > >Chris Redenbach > >On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:08:04 -0400, Simon Gadbois wrote: > > Sure! It is actually based on Belyaev's seminal work on artificially > > selected docility in farm foxes. Fascinating work! > > > > --- > > Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Psychology / Neuroscience > > Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada > > Ethology, ethoendocrinology & ethotoxicology. > > Behaviour of wild canids and estuarine fish > > http://www.gadbois.org/ > > --- > > > > On 9-Feb-05, at 6:08 PM, Jenny Haskins wrote: > > > > > Does this count as ethology? > > > > > > http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050207/full/050207-3.html > > > > > > Jenny Haskins > > > Coffs Harbour, Australia From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 10-FEB-2005 13:44:38.71 To: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois", IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" "Donald Broom" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Action patterns (This discussion group has had a very bad history of not being able to distinguish professional adversarial differences from personal insults - and has not always practiced the first while avoiding the latter. Thus, I want to make it very clear - and specifically clear to those on the list who in fact are not professionals and thus maybe are not accustomed to adversarial discourse - that my comments below are not intended to be personal in any way. Nor are my comments intended to show disrespect for other professionals who hold views different from own. My challenge is to the ideas; not to the persons as individuals who present the ideas. WRS) Below, by using the term "natural" is there not an implication that there are "unnatural" action sequences? And what would an "unnatural action sequence" involve? (And of course, I expect that "natural" in this instance is intended to imply "of the animal; i.e., gene influenced" - but I think the term as used is nevertheless confusing at best.) And if "natural action sequences" in fact include everything from deterministic to random acts, then does the phrase "natural action sequence" have any meaning beyond simply saying "a behavior sequence of any sort?" And is there ever an end to the number of possible proposed new terms of this type that can be set forth if workers continue to attempt to wordsmith into existence a scientific discipline? W.R. Stricklin University of Maryland -----Original Message----- From: Simon Gadbois [mailto:simon@gadbois.org] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:08 PM To: Donald Broom Cc: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: Action patterns Hi Don, I agree with your comment on the terms FAP and MAP, John Fentress and myself always write about "natural action sequences", leaving plenty of room for any type of action sequences independently of length, internal control, external factors, etc. By avoiding even the use of the term "pattern", it may be going too far in describing stochastically insignificant sequences (i.e., low predictability/close to random), but it keeps the mind open in the continuum between completely deterministic sequences and completely random ones. My experience with food caching sequences in wild canids is that you travel across that continuum in surprising ways... (e.g., Fentress and Gadbois, 2001). SG --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology / Neuroscience Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada Ethology, ethoendocrinology & ethotoxicology. Behaviour of wild canids and estuarine fish http://www.gadbois.org/ --- On 9-Feb-05, at 2:42 PM, Donald Broom wrote: > Action Patterns > > Further to the information from Simon Gadbois, I wrote a 20 page > review of the subject of action patterns, referring to detailed > behaviour analysis and brain studies, in Chapter 3 of my book "Biology > of Behaviour" (Broom D.M. 1981, Cambridge University Press). I think > that few people talk about "fixed" or "modal" nowadays but the idea of > action patterns is useful. "Fixed" could be taken to mean entirely > genetically determined and no behaviour is. It could also mean never > varying and only the very briefest sequences are. Modal is a better > description but does not add much so it is best to use neither of > these words in my view. > > Don Broom > > From: IN%"Eva.Sondergaard@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Eva_S=F8ndergaard?=" 11-FEB-2005 07:49:06.17 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: SV: removing individuals from a stable group Hi Anna While you are waiting for the scientific documentation I can give you a = recent anecdotal one concerning horses. My 27 year old mare was removed = from her group where she had been the dominant mare for 20+ years, = although the other group members ofcourse haven't been the same during = all that time. After some aggressive interactions going on for some = weeks a new and completely different hierarchy has been established. The = group now consists of 4 adult warmblood mares, 1 pony mare and some = youngsters. The pony mare has always been in the bottom of the hierarchy = (above the youngsters though) and still is but the relationship between = the warmblood mares has changed, so that the mare that was previously = no. 2 now is no. 4, the mare that was previously no. 3 is now no. 1 but = very tolerant of the other mare so that the no. 4 mare is allowed to = feed next to her but not next to the mares that are now no. 2 and 3. It = has been very interesting to follow the change in relationship between = the mares and also to see that there is something more to the = relationships than simply hierarchy namely tolerance of other = individuals. When you get the more scientific informations I hope they will go the = list too. Regards Eva S=F8ndergaard Eva S=F8ndergaard Forsker/Research scientist Afd. for Husdyrsundhed, Velf=E6rd og Ern=E6ring/Dep. of Animal Health, = Welfare and Nutrition Forskningscenter Foulum/Research Centre Foulum 8830 Tjele, Denmark Tlf./ph. +45 89 99 13 19 -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Anna Olsson [mailto:olsson@ibmc.up.pt] Sendt: 10. februar 2005 12:11 Til: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Emne: removing individuals from a stable group Dear all, When animals are regrouped in a way that means that previously = unfamiliar individuals are housed together, we expect an initial = increase in aggression until the hierarchy has established, and there = are many studies showing that this actually happens. I'm interested in a = somewhat different situation, when individuals are removed from a group = without new individuals being added. Even though there is no = confrontation of unfamiliar individuals, the previous hierarchy will be = disturbed and it seems to me that a new one will have to be established. = Does anybody knew of scientific studies of this phenomenon in any = species? I'm only aware of a Sapolsky study with baboons, where the = dominant male was removed and aggression escalated between the remaining = males. Regards, Anna Olsson Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 11-FEB-2005 08:46:57.43 To: IN%"Candace.Croney@orst.edu" "Candace Croney", IN%"twidowsk@uoguelph.ca" "Tina Widowski", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jake DeDecker To: bpetersn@uiuc.edu ; bcorrigan@vitaplus.com ; daniel.hamilton@worldnet.att.net ; branavar@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu ; eocastan@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu ; James@lysine.com ; mkocher02@yahoo.com ; ritter@uiuc.edu ; securtis@uiuc.edu ; hollisg@uiuc.edu Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: Fwd: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? Greetings, I receive several animal care and husbandry newsletters each week and usually they are full of stuff that would be boring to the average person. Typically they contain articles about market trends, nutrition, and how to properly brush your dog or pet your cat. They do contain a lot of information about animal pain and suffering, mostly to fuel or distinguish PETA fires. One story stuck out in this weeks Drovers Report about whether or not a worm feels pain when placed on a hook or a lobster or crab feels pain when thrown into a pot of boiling water. This is something I have always thought about. I assumed they did, but dismissed it as an act of good for the betterment of God's children. Well I was wrong! If you are interested, read the article below. Nick Norwegians study pain and distress of invertebrates A scientific study funded by the Norwegian government has determined that worms squirming on a fishhook feel no pain. Nor do lobsters and crabs cooked in boiling water. The government called for the study on pain, discomfort and stress in invertebrates to help in the planned revision of Norway's animal-protection law. Professor Wenche Farstad said most invertebrates, including lobsters and crabs boiled alive, do not feel pain because, unlike mammals, they do not have a big brain to read the signals. Norway might have considered banning the use of live worms as fish bait if the study had found that they felt pain. Farstad said, "It only seems to be only reflex curling when put on the hook. They might sense something, but it is not painful and does not compromise their well-being." Nick Wherley Instructional Materials Specialist Animal Sciences Information Technology and Communication Services University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (217) 244-5170 Fax (217) 333-0005 www.PublicationsPlus.uiuc.edu Jacob M. DeDecker Graduate Research Assistant Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois 1207 West Gregory Dr. Urbana, IL. 61801 (217) 244-3147 From: IN%"sbc@kvl.dk" "Stine B Christiansen" 11-FEB-2005 09:23:53.22 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Svar: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? Just FYI if someone are interested in more info or to qualify the = potential debate over this: The conclusion is made by a panel on the basis of a literature study = (similar concept as EFSA). The conclusion is drawn with caution, mentioning= the lack of knowledge and need for research. The opion of the panel and the report can both be found at: www.vkm.no=20 Stine >>> Stanley Curtis 11-02-05 15:46:47 >>> ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jake DeDecker=20 To: bpetersn@uiuc.edu ; bcorrigan@vitaplus.com ; daniel.hamilton@worldnet= .att.net ; branavar@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu ; eocastan@uiuc.edu ; = m-ellis7@uiuc.edu ; James@lysine.com ; mkocher02@yahoo.com ; ritter@uiuc.ed= u ; securtis@uiuc.edu ; hollisg@uiuc.edu=20 Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: Fwd: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? Greetings, I receive several animal care and husbandry newsletters each week and = usually they are full of stuff that would be boring to the average person. = Typically they contain articles about market trends, nutrition, and how = to properly brush your dog or pet your cat. They do contain a lot of = information about animal pain and suffering, mostly to fuel or distinguish = PETA fires. One story stuck out in this weeks Drovers Report about = whether or not a worm feels pain when placed on a hook or a lobster or = crab feels pain when thrown into a pot of boiling water. This is = something I have always thought about. I assumed they did, but dismissed = it as an act of good for the betterment of God's children. Well I was = wrong! If you are interested, read the article below. =20 Nick Norwegians study pain and distress of invertebrates A scientific study funded by the Norwegian government has determined = that worms squirming on a fishhook feel no pain. Nor do lobsters and crabs = cooked in boiling water. The government called for the study on pain, = discomfort and stress in invertebrates to help in the planned revision of = Norway's animal-protection law. Professor Wenche Farstad said most = invertebrates, including lobsters and crabs boiled alive, do not feel pain = because, unlike mammals, they do not have a big brain to read the signals. = Norway might have considered banning the use of live worms as fish bait if = the study had found that they felt pain. Farstad said, "It only seems to = be only reflex curling when put on the hook. They might sense something, = but it is not painful and does not compromise their well-being." =20 =20 Nick Wherley Instructional Materials Specialist Animal Sciences Information Technology and Communication Services University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (217) 244-5170 Fax (217) 333-0005 www.PublicationsPlus.uiuc.edu=20 Jacob M. DeDecker Graduate Research Assistant Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois 1207 West Gregory Dr.=20 Urbana, IL. 61801 (217) 244-3147 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- =20 Stine B. Christiansen cand.med.vet. (DVM), MSc, PhD-stud. Det Dyreetiske R=E5d/The Danish Animal Ethics Council Center for Bioetik og Risikovurdering/Centre for Bioethics and Risk = Assessment Den Kgl. Veterin=E6r- og Landboh=F8jskole/The Royal Veterinary and = Agricultural University Bioetik/Bioethics Gr=F8nneg=E5rdsvej 8 1870 Frederiksberg C Copenhagen Denmark tlf./ph.: +45 3528 3075 fax: +45 3528 3022 e-mail: sbc@kvl.dk=20 From: IN%"cindysharkbait@yahoo.com" "cindy schulze" 11-FEB-2005 09:29:33.48 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? Professor Farstad has offered no empirical evidence to support his theory that invertebrates cannot process pain. I am suprised that the gov't accepted his mere opinion in such an important decision making process. Millions of animals are used as research tools each year, mainly because of the Descartian theory of noiceception. We disagree with his theory, yet we still practice painfull experiments on animals since we find it infeasible to move in another direction. We must insist on empirical support, especially when sentient creatures are involved. Stanley Curtis wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jake DeDecker To: bpetersn@uiuc.edu ; bcorrigan@vitaplus.com ; daniel.hamilton@worldnet.att.net ; branavar@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu ; eocastan@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu ; James@lysine.com ; mkocher02@yahoo.com ; ritter@uiuc.edu ; securtis@uiuc.edu ; hollisg@uiuc.edu Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: Fwd: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? Greetings, I receive several animal care and husbandry newsletters each week and usually they are full of stuff that would be boring to the average person. Typically they contain articles about market trends, nutrition, and how to properly brush your dog or pet your cat. They do contain a lot of information about animal pain and suffering, mostly to fuel or distinguish PETA fires. One story stuck out in this weeks Drovers Report about whether or not a worm feels pain when placed on a hook or a lobster or crab feels pain when thrown into a pot of boiling water. This is something I have always thought about. I assumed they did, but dismissed it as an act of good for the betterment of God's children. Well I was wrong! If you are interested, read the article below. Nick Norwegians study pain and distress of invertebrates A scientific study funded by the Norwegian government has determined that worms squirming on a fishhook feel no pain. Nor do lobsters and crabs cooked in boiling water. The government called for the study on pain, discomfort and stress in invertebrates to help in the planned revision of Norway’s animal-protection law. Professor Wenche Farstad said most invertebrates, including lobsters and crabs boiled alive, do not feel pain because, unlike mammals, they do not have a big brain to read the signals. Norway might have considered banning the use of live worms as fish bait if the study had found that they felt pain. Farstad said, “It only seems to be only reflex curling when put on the hook. They might sense something, but it is not painful and does not compromise their well-being.” Nick Wherley Instructional Materials Specialist Animal Sciences Information Technology and Communication Services University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (217) 244-5170 Fax (217) 333-0005 www.PublicationsPlus.uiuc.edu Jacob M. DeDecker Graduate Research Assistant Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois 1207 West Gregory Dr. Urbana, IL. 61801 (217) 244-3147 --------------------------------- Cindy SchulzeClick on the "Feed an Animal in Need" button at http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ and give food to an animal living in a shelter or sanctuary -- at no cost to you. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 11-FEB-2005 10:11:31.68 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" "Joseph Stookey", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? Joe- I agree with your assessmentm and have neither changed my stripes nor lost my ability to distinguish manna from malarkey- I simply sent the snippet around as a for-your-information piece and to find out if anyone out there was up and at 'em this morning!- Thankfully, I needn't have wondered- ({;-}) -Stan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Stookey" To: "Stanley Curtis" Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? > Okay Stan, I'll bite on your "hook". How do we know a boiling lobster > doesn't feel pain? How do we know? You should recognize the question; > it is one that you always use. Just because some Norwegian scientists > says so, should we believe that a lobster boiled alive doesn't feel > pain? That is not a very convincing argument. When applied ethologists > say animals feel pain, you scoff that it is mostly rhetoric by a bunch > of bleeding heart opinionated unscientific linguistic gymnast bending > the evidence to suit their view. Well, the newspaper clip you sent had > not one shred of scientific evidence that lobsters do not feel pain when > boiled alive - it was simply a comment (an opinion?) launched by one > scientist with the microphone and without any supporting evidence. > > Bring some more evidence and then we should have this discussion again. > I really laughed at the last line in the article, "They might sense > something, but it is not painful and does not compromise their > well-being." What part of being boiled alive or stuck on a hook does > not compromise their well-being? I am not going to lose any sleep about > what a worm feels on a hook, but to string such a group of words > together in the same sentence is coming very close to Bill Clinton's > laughable explanation of not having sex with Monica L. It is just > priceless. > > Take care, > > Joe > > -- > Joseph M. Stookey > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > 52 Campus Drive > University of Saskatchewan > Saskatoon, SK > S7N 5B4 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From: IN%"pumilla@onetel.com" "jonathan balcombe" 11-FEB-2005 10:26:24.56 To: IN%"sbc@kvl.dk" "Stine B Christiansen", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? I share another contributor's concern about taking these conclusions = face-value, and recommend the following paper for in informed and often = surprising exploration of the question of sentience in invertebrates = (admittedly a catch-all term spanning an enormous diversity of = life-forms): Sherwin CM. 2001. Can invertebrates suffer? Or, how robust is = argument-by-analogy? Animal Welfare 10: S103-118.=20 Jonathan Balcombe, Ph.D.=20 Research Consultant=20 Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine=20 20 Nunthorpe Road=20 York YO23 1BG=20 UK=20 (01904) 610 398=20 international: + 44 1904 610 398 pumilla@onetel.com =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Stine B Christiansen" To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 3:23 PM Subject: Svar: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? Just FYI if someone are interested in more info or to qualify the = potential debate over this: The conclusion is made by a panel on the basis of a literature study = (similar concept as EFSA). The conclusion is drawn with caution, = mentioning the lack of knowledge and need for research. The opion of the panel and the report can both be found at: www.vkm.no=20 Stine >>> Stanley Curtis 11-02-05 15:46:47 >>> ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jake DeDecker=20 To: bpetersn@uiuc.edu ; bcorrigan@vitaplus.com ; = daniel.hamilton@worldnet.att.net ; branavar@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu = ; eocastan@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu ; James@lysine.com ; = mkocher02@yahoo.com ; ritter@uiuc.edu ; securtis@uiuc.edu ; = hollisg@uiuc.edu=20 Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: Fwd: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? Greetings, I receive several animal care and husbandry newsletters each week = and usually they are full of stuff that would be boring to the average = person. Typically they contain articles about market trends, nutrition, = and how to properly brush your dog or pet your cat. They do contain a = lot of information about animal pain and suffering, mostly to fuel or = distinguish PETA fires. One story stuck out in this weeks Drovers = Report about whether or not a worm feels pain when placed on a hook or a = lobster or crab feels pain when thrown into a pot of boiling water. = This is something I have always thought about. I assumed they did, but = dismissed it as an act of good for the betterment of God's children. = Well I was wrong! If you are interested, read the article below. =20 Nick Norwegians study pain and distress of invertebrates A scientific study funded by the Norwegian government has determined = that worms squirming on a fishhook feel no pain. Nor do lobsters and = crabs cooked in boiling water. The government called for the study on = pain, discomfort and stress in invertebrates to help in the planned = revision of Norway's animal-protection law. Professor Wenche Farstad = said most invertebrates, including lobsters and crabs boiled alive, do = not feel pain because, unlike mammals, they do not have a big brain to = read the signals. Norway might have considered banning the use of live = worms as fish bait if the study had found that they felt pain. Farstad = said, "It only seems to be only reflex curling when put on the hook. = They might sense something, but it is not painful and does not = compromise their well-being." =20 =20 Nick Wherley Instructional Materials Specialist Animal Sciences Information Technology and Communication Services University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (217) 244-5170 Fax (217) 333-0005 www.PublicationsPlus.uiuc.edu=20 Jacob M. DeDecker Graduate Research Assistant Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois 1207 West Gregory Dr.=20 Urbana, IL. 61801 (217) 244-3147 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 Stine B. Christiansen cand.med.vet. (DVM), MSc, PhD-stud. Det Dyreetiske R=E5d/The Danish Animal Ethics Council Center for Bioetik og Risikovurdering/Centre for Bioethics and Risk = Assessment Den Kgl. Veterin=E6r- og Landboh=F8jskole/The Royal Veterinary and = Agricultural University Bioetik/Bioethics Gr=F8nneg=E5rdsvej 8 1870 Frederiksberg C Copenhagen Denmark tlf./ph.: +45 3528 3075 fax: +45 3528 3022 e-mail: sbc@kvl.dk=20 From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 11-FEB-2005 10:32:43.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: another word question with ethological relevance This morning, I came across a paper that describes the gender effect on social effects on stress in rats. I was somewhat surprised, as I thought that 'gender' was an umbrella term for 'biological' and 'cultural' aspects of being a man or a woman. Is not this mix of biological and cultural (notoriously difficult to dissociate) something we would expect being a distinctly human phenomenon? Usually we don't discuss any other effects than biological in non-primates, and those biological effects, I thought, would becovered by the word "sex". Please note that this is not an argument for calling animals 'it' or that humans are superior! But it is an issue on which your comments are welcome. Regards, Anna Olsson Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"smillman@uoguelph.ca" "Suzanne Millman" 11-FEB-2005 15:11:04.99 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: another word question with ethological relevance Definition according to Miriam-Websters Gender: 2. Sex, the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex I guess the "or" means that behavioural differences are sufficient reason to use this term. Cheers, Suzanne -- Suzanne Millman, BSc(Agr), PhD Asst. Professor, Applied Animal Behaviour & Welfare Dept. of Population Medicine, Ontario Veterinary College, University of Guelph, Guelph, ON, N1G 2W1, Canada Tel: (519) 824-4120, ext.53677 Dept. Fax: (519) 763-8621 Email: smillman@ovc.uoguelph.ca Quoting Anna Olsson : > This morning, I came across a paper that describes the gender effect on > social effects on stress in rats. I was somewhat surprised, as I thought that > 'gender' was an umbrella term for 'biological' and 'cultural' aspects of > being a man or a woman. Is not this mix of biological and cultural > (notoriously difficult to dissociate) something we would expect being a > distinctly human phenomenon? Usually we don't discuss any other effects than > biological in non-primates, and those biological effects, I thought, would > becovered by the word "sex". > > Please note that this is not an argument for calling animals 'it' or that > humans are superior! But it is an issue on which your comments are welcome. > > Regards, > Anna Olsson > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > Researcher > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > 4150-180 Porto > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > Fax +351 22 6099157 > From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@umb.no" 11-FEB-2005 15:28:37.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"Ingfrid.Slaatto.Naess@fhi.no" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ingfrid_Slaatto_N=E6ss?=", IN%"wenche.farstad@veths.no" "Wenche Farstad" Subj: SV: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? - please stop discussing this before you learn more about what it is Dear all, The Norwegian "study" behind this e-mail discussion was in fact made under my guidance. It was not a study or research work, but a short literature review made as a basis for a scientific opinion from The Panel of Animal Health and Welfare of the Norwegian Scientific Committee for Food Safety, of which I am a member and prof. Wenche Farstad (female) is the chairperson. The "article" quoted by Nick must have been originating from a Norwegian newspaper and does not precisely inform about the conclusions. This panel was asked by The Norwegian Food Safety Authority (NFSA) to produce an opinion on the ability of various groups of invertebrates to sense and to perceive discomfort, pain and stress when these organisms are exposed to human handling. (As already pointed out by Stine Christensen, this organisation is similar to that of EFSA (European Food Safety Authority, and its scientific panel, and mainly produces risk assessments related to health and welfare.) The reason was ongoing work on a new Norwegian Animal Welfare Act (the former act is from 1974), and the law committee will consider including new species into the act. At present the Norwegian law includes all vertebrates (including fish) and decapodes (crab, lobster etc.) of the crustaceans. To produce the report that was to be rather short and made within six weeks (and limited to 100 working hours) we cooperated with a well-known Norwegian professor of invertebrate zoology (Lauritz S. Sømme). The literature review included of course the article by Chris Sherwin mentioned by Jonathan Balcombe. To your information, the main conclusions drawn by the panel on basis of this report is presented here: "The Panel on Animal Health and Welfare is of the opinion that conclusions regarding this question must be drawn quite cautiously. Research on sentience and nociception in invertebrates is virtually non-existent. Conclusions relevant for animal welfare in invertebrates must therefore be based on the more general scientific knowledge gained from mammalian research and adapted to existing knowledge on the structure and function of the nervous system of animals belonging to major groups of invertebrates. According to the literature reviewed in the Scientific Report, most invertebrates are probably unable to feel pain. However, the significance of the presence of opioids in the circulation of some invertebrate species is not known, and these substances might be involved in pain perception and relief much in the same manner as in vertebrate species. The ability of invertebrates to experience discomfort and stress is more related to the unsolved question of to what extent they are provided with emotional and higher cognitive abilities like consciousness and awareness. The comparatively advanced brain of octopuses warrants further research on the extent of their cognitive abilities. As long as the questions of sentience and pain remain uncertain, concern should at least be given to the more advanced species of invertebrates during handling and captivity. Cephalopods, in particular the eight-armed species (Octopus sp), and social insects, such as honeybees (Apis mellifera), may be particularly vulnerable. Definite answers to pain, discomfort and stress in invertebrates are impossible to provide until more research has been carried out." No conclusions on which species to include in the new law was to be made by the scientific panel. This is NFSA's job. The report points to the interesting question whether other animals than the presently included decapodes should be considered. Social insects and octopuses have a much more complex central nervous system than e.g. the lobster. To be included in a law, it must be thought that a species possesses sentience or awareness, not mere reflexive reactions to nociception which can be handled in local ganglia. This will also depend on which definition of animal welfare we use. In Norway, we use an adapted version of Broom's definition, emphasizing that welfare is about an individual's subjective experience of its mental and physical state as regards its attempts to cope with its environment. If an animal suffers subjectively, its welfare is compromised. If the animal is physically affected adversely without experiencing this in line with the sentience concept, its welfare may not be compromised but it may still be unethical to treat the animal in this way. So, ethics may go longer than welfare in some cases. The complete scientific report behind the opinion can be found here: http://www.vkm.no/eway/library/openForm.aspx?param1=15839¶m5=read It does not claim to be exhaustive, but a quick input to the Norwegian debate about the questions put forward - and, as mentioned before, focuses on the need for more knowledge in this area. So, now you are free to continue discussions on this topic! Best regards, Bjarne ********************************************************** Bjarne O. Braastad (Dr.Philos.) Professor of Ethology Dept. of Animal and Aquacultural Sciences, Norwegian University of Life Sciences, P.O. Box 5003, NO-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: bjarne.braastad@umb.no fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 cell phone: +47 419 086 93 http://www.umb.no/iha ********************************************************** -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: jonathan balcombe [mailto:pumilla@onetel.com] Sendt: 11. februar 2005 17:25 Til: Stine B Christiansen; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Emne: Re: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? I share another contributor's concern about taking these conclusions face-value, and recommend the following paper for in informed and often surprising exploration of the question of sentience in invertebrates (admittedly a catch-all term spanning an enormous diversity of life-forms): Sherwin CM. 2001. Can invertebrates suffer? Or, how robust is argument-by-analogy? Animal Welfare 10: S103-118. Jonathan Balcombe, Ph.D. Research Consultant Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine 20 Nunthorpe Road York YO23 1BG UK (01904) 610 398 international: + 44 1904 610 398 pumilla@onetel.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stine B Christiansen" To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 3:23 PM Subject: Svar: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? Just FYI if someone are interested in more info or to qualify the potential debate over this: The conclusion is made by a panel on the basis of a literature study (similar concept as EFSA). The conclusion is drawn with caution, mentioning the lack of knowledge and need for research. The opion of the panel and the report can both be found at: www.vkm.no Stine >>> Stanley Curtis 11-02-05 15:46:47 >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jake DeDecker To: bpetersn@uiuc.edu ; bcorrigan@vitaplus.com ; daniel.hamilton@worldnet.att.net ; branavar@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu ; eocastan@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu ; James@lysine.com ; mkocher02@yahoo.com ; ritter@uiuc.edu ; securtis@uiuc.edu ; hollisg@uiuc.edu Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: Fwd: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? Greetings, I receive several animal care and husbandry newsletters each week and usually they are full of stuff that would be boring to the average person. Typically they contain articles about market trends, nutrition, and how to properly brush your dog or pet your cat. They do contain a lot of information about animal pain and suffering, mostly to fuel or distinguish PETA fires. One story stuck out in this weeks Drovers Report about whether or not a worm feels pain when placed on a hook or a lobster or crab feels pain when thrown into a pot of boiling water. This is something I have always thought about. I assumed they did, but dismissed it as an act of good for the betterment of God's children. Well I was wrong! If you are interested, read the article below. Nick Norwegians study pain and distress of invertebrates A scientific study funded by the Norwegian government has determined that worms squirming on a fishhook feel no pain. Nor do lobsters and crabs cooked in boiling water. The government called for the study on pain, discomfort and stress in invertebrates to help in the planned revision of Norway's animal-protection law. Professor Wenche Farstad said most invertebrates, including lobsters and crabs boiled alive, do not feel pain because, unlike mammals, they do not have a big brain to read the signals. Norway might have considered banning the use of live worms as fish bait if the study had found that they felt pain. Farstad said, "It only seems to be only reflex curling when put on the hook. They might sense something, but it is not painful and does not compromise their well-being." Nick Wherley Instructional Materials Specialist Animal Sciences Information Technology and Communication Services University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (217) 244-5170 Fax (217) 333-0005 www.PublicationsPlus.uiuc.edu Jacob M. DeDecker Graduate Research Assistant Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois 1207 West Gregory Dr. Urbana, IL. 61801 (217) 244-3147 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Stine B. Christiansen cand.med.vet. (DVM), MSc, PhD-stud. Det Dyreetiske Råd/The Danish Animal Ethics Council Center for Bioetik og Risikovurdering/Centre for Bioethics and Risk Assessment Den Kgl. Veterinær- og Landbohøjskole/The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University Bioetik/Bioethics Grønnegårdsvej 8 1870 Frederiksberg C Copenhagen Denmark tlf./ph.: +45 3528 3075 fax: +45 3528 3022 e-mail: sbc@kvl.dk From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 12-FEB-2005 09:07:35.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Behavioural ecotoxicology Clare Lewandowski wrote: > I believe there is a relative of the elephant nose fish, similar in overall > shape but without the 'nose'. And also had the weak electrical field. It's > been close to 20 years since we had our fresh and saltwater tanks but I > think at that time they were called baby whales for a common name. The movie > Gremlins II with an electric gremlin in the phone line comes to mind with > your Wal-Mart story. > Have you tried finding out if they've been bred by fish fanciers yet? If so, > perhaps some breeder would donate and ship to you for bragging rights. > Knife fishes were also considered some of the most advanced as far as > brain/spinal cord size to body weight and quite interesting. Many different fish groups (and the Platypus) are able to detect weak electric fields, and use that ability to find their food. The ability to *generate* an electrical field, and detect alterations in it caused by nearby objects, has evolved independently in several different fish lineages. Only those fishes able to generate their own electric fields are properly called "electric fishes." The most important electric-fish evolutionary radiations are those of the Mormyriformes in Africa, and of the Gymnotiformes in tropical America. The electric discharges of these fishes, generated in "electric organs" made up of modified muscle cells (in most cases), are used for orientation, for detection of prey, for social communication, and in a few species as weapons. The Mormyriformes include the family Mormyridae, to which Gnathonemus belongs, and the monotypic family Gymnarchidae with a single species, Gymnarchus niloticus. All these fishes are "weakly electric" and use their electrical discharges both for electrolocation, to find their way about in darkness and/or in very murky water, and for social communication. The Mormyridae are a species-rich group. A recent discovery has been "species flocks" of closely related forms, almost indistinguishable morphologically but quite distinct in their electrical behavior. Perhaps one could call them "electrospecies" . Gnathonemus petersii has not, so far as I could discover by a somewhat cursory search, as yet been bred in captivity, and its reproductive behavior seems to be unknown. Several other species of Mormyridae have, however, recently been bred, permitting study in their larvae of the electric and electroreceptive organs, which are different from those of the adults. Gymnarchus is inconveniently large for the aquarium hobby, but its reproductive behavior is well documented. It builds a large floating nest of vegetation, guarded by the male. The Gymnotiformes include several families of "knife fishes" of the American tropics. The most notorious is the "electric eel" (Electrophorus electricus) - one of the few electric fishes which produces a discharge strong enough to stun prey or give a severe shock to humans who inadvertently come in contact with it. Such "strongly electric" fishes - which also include the electric rays or "numbfish" of marine environments, and the electric catfish of African fresh waters - use their electric organs as weapons, both in self defense and for the capture of prey. A good deal of research has been conducted into the "electro-ethology" of certain gymnotids. A Google search on "electric fishes" will find lots of interesting information, as well as the Web sites of several contemporary researchers investigating the behavior, neurobiology, taxonomy etc. of these fishes. I encountered many Mormyrids while diving at night in certain African rivers, where I was observing Cichlid behavior in the wild. It would have been fascinating to study them too ... but you can't do everything, and anyway the electronic technology which today enables recording and analysis of their electrical signals (and playing back the signals to observe their responses) was then in its infancy ... John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 14-FEB-2005 05:19:03.96 To: IN%"bjarne.braastad@umb.no" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"Ingfrid.Slaatto.Naess@fhi.no" "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ingfrid_Slaatto_N=E6ss?=", IN%"wenche.farstad@veths.no" "Wenche Farstad" Subj: RE: SV: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? - please stop discussing this before you learn more about what it is Dear Bjarne, Our University Ethics Committee is currently debating the issue of=20 ethical research on invertebrates and I have been asked to submit recent wo= rk in=20 this area. Do I have your permission to show the e-mail you sent to this= =20 discussion group to our Ethics Committee? Best wishes, Chris On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:28:01 +0100 "Bjarne O. Braastad" wrote: > Dear all, >=20 > The Norwegian "study" behind this e-mail discussion was in fact made unde= r > my guidance. It was not a study or research work, but a short literature > review made as a basis for a scientific opinion from > The Panel of Animal Health and Welfare of the Norwegian Scientific Commit= tee > for Food Safety, of which I am a member and prof. Wenche Farstad (female)= is > the chairperson. The "article" quoted by Nick must have been originating > from a Norwegian newspaper and does not precisely inform about the > conclusions. This panel was asked by The Norwegian Food Safety Authority > (NFSA) to produce an opinion on the ability of various groups of > invertebrates to sense and to perceive discomfort, pain and stress when > these organisms are exposed to human handling. (As already pointed out by > Stine Christensen, this organisation is similar to that of EFSA (European > Food Safety Authority, and its scientific panel, and mainly produces risk > assessments related to health and welfare.) The reason was ongoing work o= n a > new Norwegian Animal Welfare Act (the former act is from 1974), and the l= aw > committee will consider including new species into the act. At present th= e > Norwegian law includes all vertebrates (including fish) and decapodes (cr= ab, > lobster etc.) of the crustaceans. >=20 >=20 >=20 > To produce the report that was to be rather short and made within six wee= ks > (and limited to 100 working hours) we cooperated with a well-known Norweg= ian > professor of invertebrate zoology (Lauritz S. S=F8mme). The literature re= view > included of course the article by Chris Sherwin mentioned by Jonathan > Balcombe. To your information, the main conclusions drawn by the panel on > basis of this report is presented here: >=20 >=20 >=20 > "The Panel on Animal Health and Welfare is of the opinion that > conclusions regarding this question must be drawn quite cautiously. Resea= rch > on sentience and nociception in invertebrates is virtually non-existent. > Conclusions relevant for animal welfare in invertebrates must therefore b= e > based on the more general scientific knowledge gained from mammalian > research and adapted to existing knowledge on the structure and function = of > the nervous system of animals belonging to major groups of invertebrates. > According to the literature reviewed in the Scientific Report, most > invertebrates are probably unable to feel pain. However, the significance= of > the presence of opioids in the circulation of some invertebrate species i= s > not known, and these substances might be involved in pain perception and > relief much in the same manner as in vertebrate species. >=20 > The ability of invertebrates to experience discomfort and stress is > more related to the unsolved question of to what extent they are provided > with emotional and higher cognitive abilities like consciousness and > awareness. The comparatively advanced brain of octopuses warrants further > research on the extent of their cognitive abilities. As long as the > questions of sentience and pain remain uncertain, concern should at least= be > given to the more advanced species of invertebrates during handling and > captivity. Cephalopods, in particular the eight-armed species (Octopus sp= ), > and social insects, such as honeybees (Apis mellifera), may be particular= ly > vulnerable. Definite answers to pain, discomfort and stress in invertebra= tes > are impossible to provide until more research has been carried out." >=20 >=20 >=20 > No conclusions on which species to include in the new law was to be made = by > the scientific panel. This is NFSA's job. The report points to the > interesting question whether other animals than the presently included > decapodes should be considered. Social insects and octopuses have a much > more complex central nervous system than e.g. the lobster. To be included= in > a law, it must be thought that a species possesses sentience or awareness= , > not mere reflexive reactions to nociception which can be handled in local > ganglia. This will also depend on which definition of animal welfare we u= se. > In Norway, we use an adapted version of Broom's definition, emphasizing t= hat > welfare is about an individual's subjective experience of its mental and > physical state as regards its attempts to cope with its environment. If a= n > animal suffers subjectively, its welfare is compromised. If the animal is > physically affected adversely without experiencing this in line with the > sentience concept, its welfare may not be compromised but it may still be > unethical to treat the animal in this way. So, ethics may go longer than > welfare in some cases. >=20 >=20 >=20 > The complete scientific report behind the opinion can be found here: > http://www.vkm.no/eway/library/openForm.aspx?param1=3D15839¶m5=3Dread >=20 > It does not claim to be exhaustive, but a quick input to the Norwegian > debate about the questions put forward - and, as mentioned before, focuse= s > on the need for more knowledge in this area. >=20 >=20 >=20 > So, now you are free to continue discussions on this topic! >=20 >=20 >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > Bjarne >=20 >=20 > ********************************************************** > Bjarne O. Braastad (Dr.Philos.) > Professor of Ethology > Dept. of Animal and Aquacultural Sciences, > Norwegian University of Life Sciences, > P.O. Box 5003, > NO-1432 Aas, Norway > e-mail: bjarne.braastad@umb.no > fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 > cell phone: +47 419 086 93 > http://www.umb.no/iha > ********************************************************** >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: jonathan balcombe [mailto:pumilla@onetel.com] > Sendt: 11. februar 2005 17:25 > Til: Stine B Christiansen; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Emne: Re: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? >=20 >=20 > I share another contributor's concern about taking these conclusions > face-value, and recommend the following paper for in informed and often > surprising exploration of the question of sentience in invertebrates > (admittedly a catch-all term spanning an enormous diversity of life-forms= ): >=20 > Sherwin CM. 2001. Can invertebrates suffer? Or, how robust is > argument-by-analogy? Animal Welfare 10: S103-118. >=20 > Jonathan Balcombe, Ph.D. > Research Consultant > Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine >=20 > 20 Nunthorpe Road > York YO23 1BG > UK > (01904) 610 398 > international: + 44 1904 610 398 > pumilla@onetel.com >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stine B Christiansen" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 3:23 PM > Subject: Svar: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? >=20 >=20 > Just FYI if someone are interested in more info or to qualify the > potential debate over this: >=20 > The conclusion is made by a panel on the basis of a literature study > (similar concept as EFSA). The conclusion is drawn with caution, mentioni= ng > the lack of knowledge and need for research. >=20 > The opion of the panel and the report can both be found at: > www.vkm.no >=20 > Stine >=20 > >>> Stanley Curtis 11-02-05 15:46:47 >>> >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jake DeDecker > To: bpetersn@uiuc.edu ; bcorrigan@vitaplus.com ; > daniel.hamilton@worldnet.att.net ; branavar@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu = ; > eocastan@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu ; James@lysine.com ; > mkocher02@yahoo.com ; ritter@uiuc.edu ; securtis@uiuc.edu ; hollisg@uiuc.= edu > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:34 AM > Subject: Fwd: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Greetings, >=20 > I receive several animal care and husbandry newsletters each week a= nd > usually they are full of stuff that would be boring to the average person= . > Typically they contain articles about market trends, nutrition, and how t= o > properly brush your dog or pet your cat. They do contain a lot of > information about animal pain and suffering, mostly to fuel or distinguis= h > PETA fires. One story stuck out in this weeks Drovers Report about wheth= er > or not a worm feels pain when placed on a hook or a lobster or crab feels > pain when thrown into a pot of boiling water. This is something I have > always thought about. I assumed they did, but dismissed it as an act of > good for the betterment of God's children. Well I was wrong! If you are > interested, read the article below. >=20 > Nick >=20 >=20 > Norwegians study pain and distress of invertebrates > A scientific study funded by the Norwegian government has determine= d > that worms squirming on a fishhook feel no pain. Nor do lobsters and crab= s > cooked in boiling water. The government called for the study on pain, > discomfort and stress in invertebrates to help in the planned revision of > Norway's animal-protection law. Professor Wenche Farstad said most > invertebrates, including lobsters and crabs boiled alive, do not feel pai= n > because, unlike mammals, they do not have a big brain to read the signals= . > Norway might have considered banning the use of live worms as fish bait i= f > the study had found that they felt pain. Farstad said, "It only seems to = be > only reflex curling when put on the hook. They might sense something, but= it > is not painful and does not compromise their well-being." >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Nick Wherley > Instructional Materials Specialist > Animal Sciences > Information Technology and Communication Services > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > (217) 244-5170 > Fax (217) 333-0005 > www.PublicationsPlus.uiuc.edu > Jacob M. DeDecker > Graduate Research Assistant > Department of Animal Sciences > University of Illinois > 1207 West Gregory Dr. > Urbana, IL. 61801 > (217) 244-3147 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > ------ >=20 >=20 > Stine B. Christiansen > cand.med.vet. (DVM), MSc, PhD-stud. >=20 > Det Dyreetiske R=E5d/The Danish Animal Ethics Council > Center for Bioetik og Risikovurdering/Centre for Bioethics and Risk > Assessment >=20 > Den Kgl. Veterin=E6r- og Landboh=F8jskole/The Royal Veterinary and > Agricultural University > Bioetik/Bioethics > Gr=F8nneg=E5rdsvej 8 > 1870 Frederiksberg C > Copenhagen > Denmark >=20 > tlf./ph.: +45 3528 3075 > fax: +45 3528 3022 > e-mail: sbc@kvl.dk >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology, Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, BS40 5DU, U.K. Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 =20 Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" 14-FEB-2005 10:16:28.96 To: IN%"pumilla@onetel.com" "jonathan balcombe", IN%"sbc@kvl.dk" "Stine B Christiansen", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? Dear Jonathan and others, I was asked a while ago to conduct a literature search of articles=20 published since I wrote the review in 2001. I have summarised these below. A paper published last year describes the responses of cockroaches to a hot = plate and the effects of morphine on their behaviour (Gritsai et al. 2004). = Injections of morphine increased the amount of time that the cockroaches=20 would spend on the hot plate - exactly as we would expect from an analgesic = effect in vertebrates. This paper cites several others indicating that=20 morphine has an apparent analgesic effect in a wide range of invertebrates. = There is a similar paper using the same technique on crickets (Zabala and=20 Gomez 1991). Injections of water had no effect on the time that the=20 crickets spent on the hot plate, whereas injections of morphine increased=20 the time crickets spent on there. This was reversed (blocked) by naloxone=20 - again, exactly the response we would expect from vertebrates. In=20 addition, suppression of the morphine injections on the 5th day produced a=20 hyper-response, which the authors interpreted as showing addiction. Dyakonova (2001) has written a review on the role of opioid peptides in=20 behaviour of invertebrates. Data are presented indicating that opioids=20 give an apparent analgesic effect in leeches, molluscs, crabs and insects.=20 In many of these, naloxone reversed this analgesic effect - exactly as we=20 would predict for vertebrates. Griffen & Speck (2004) use new knowledge on the highly complex behaviour=20 and communication of bees to argue that these invertebrates and others have = a degree of consciousness. I have also found two papers examining the effects of morphine on the=20 behaviour of crabs when they are struck between the eye-stalks (Lozda et=20 al. 1988; Bergamo et al,1992). Injection of morphine produces a=20 dose-dependent decrease in the crabs' defensive response to this stimulus. Stefano et al. (2002) wrote a review that showed the stress=20 neuroendocrinology of vertebrates and invertebrates can be remarkably=20 similar. Woolf at al. (1991) also wrote about similarities between vertebrates and=20 invertebrates based on nociceptive sensitization. References Bergamo, P., Maldonado, H., Miralto, A. (1992). Opiate effect on the=20 threat display in the crab carcinus-mediterraneus. PHARMACOLOGY=20 BIOCHEMISTRY AND BEHAVIOR 42 (2): 323-326 Dyakonova, V.E. (2001). Role of opioid peptides in behavior of=20 invertebrates. JOURNAL OF EVOLUTIONARY BIOCHEMISTRY AND PHYSIOLOGY 37 (4): = 335-347 Griffin, D.R. & Speck, G.B. (2004). New evidence of animal consciousness. = ANIMAL COGNITION 7 (1): 5-18 Gritsai, O.B., Dubynin, V.A., Pilipenko, V.E., Petrov, O.P. (2004).=20 Effects of peptide and non-peptide opioids on protective reaction of the=20 cockroach Periplaneta americana in the "hot camera". JOURNAL OF=20 EVOLUTIONARY BIOCHEMISTRY AND PHYSIOLOGY 40 (2): 153-160 Lozda, M., Romanao, A. and Maldonado, H. (1988) Effect of morphine and=20 naloxone on a defensive response of the crab, chasmagnathus-granulatus.=20 PHARMACOLOGY BIOCHEMISTRY AND BEHAVIOR. 30 (3): 635-640 Stefano, G.B., Cadet P, Zhu, W., Rialas, C.M., Mantione, K., Benz, D.,=20 Fuentes, R., Casares, F., Fricchione, G.L., Fulop, Z., Slingsby, B. (2002). = The blueprint for stress can be found in invertebrates NEUROENDOCRINOLOGY=20 LETTERS. 23 (2): 85-93 Woolf, C.J. and Walters E.T. (1991) Common patterns of plasticity=20 contributing to nociceptive sensitization in mammals and Aplysia. TRENDS=20 IN NEUROSCIENCES 14 (2): 74-78 Abstract: (Woolf et al 1991) In contrast to innocuous stimuli, which only have transient effects when=20 applied to the body surface, noxious stimuli generate persistent changes in = the nervous system. This nociceptive memory manifests itself most=20 prominently as a post-injury sensitization where, after tissue damage, the=20 avoidance reaction and pain that result from subsequent stimuli are=20 exaggerated and prolonged and can be initiated by low intensity stimuli.=20 Similarities between nociceptive sensitization in mammals (including=20 humans) and the mollusc Aplysia californica suggest that fundamental=20 mechanisms contributing to injury-induced behavioral modifications might be = widespread in the animal kingdom. Zabala, N.A. and GomezM.A. (1991). Morphine analgesia, tolerance and=20 addiction in the Cricket. Pharmacol, Biochem, Behav. 40: 887-891 --On 11 February 2005 16:25 +0000 jonathan balcombe =20 wrote: > > I share another contributor's concern about taking these conclusions > face-value, and recommend the following paper for in informed and often > surprising exploration of the question of sentience in invertebrates > (admittedly a catch-all term spanning an enormous diversity of > life-forms): > Sherwin CM. 2001. Can invertebrates suffer? Or, how robust is > argument-by-analogy? Animal Welfare 10: S103-118. > Jonathan Balcombe, Ph.D. > Research Consultant > Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine > > 20 Nunthorpe Road > York YO23 1BG > UK > (01904) 610 398 > international: + 44 1904 610 398 > pumilla@onetel.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stine B Christiansen" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 3:23 PM > Subject: Svar: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? > > Just FYI if someone are interested in more info or to qualify the > potential debate over this: > > The conclusion is made by a panel on the basis of a literature study > (similar concept as EFSA). The conclusion is drawn with caution, > mentioning the lack of knowledge and need for research. > > The opion of the panel and the report can both be found at: > www.vkm.no > > Stine > >>>> Stanley Curtis 11-02-05 15:46:47 >>> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jake DeDecker > To: bpetersn@uiuc.edu ; bcorrigan@vitaplus.com ; > daniel.hamilton@worldnet.att.net ; branavar@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu > ; eocastan@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu ; James@lysine.com ; > mkocher02@yahoo.com ; ritter@uiuc.edu ; securtis@uiuc.edu ; > hollisg@uiuc.edu Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:34 AM > Subject: Fwd: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? > > > > > Greetings, > > I receive several animal care and husbandry newsletters each week and > usually they are full of stuff that would be boring to the average > person. Typically they contain articles about market trends, nutrition, > and how to properly brush your dog or pet your cat. They do contain a > lot of information about animal pain and suffering, mostly to fuel or > distinguish PETA fires. One story stuck out in this weeks Drovers Report > about whether or not a worm feels pain when placed on a hook or a lobster > or crab feels pain when thrown into a pot of boiling water. This is > something I have always thought about. I assumed they did, but dismissed > it as an act of good for the betterment of God's children. Well I was > wrong! If you are interested, read the article below. > > Nick > > > Norwegians study pain and distress of invertebrates > A scientific study funded by the Norwegian government has determined > that worms squirming on a fishhook feel no pain. Nor do lobsters and > crabs cooked in boiling water. The government called for the study on > pain, discomfort and stress in invertebrates to help in the planned > revision of Norway's animal-protection law. Professor Wenche Farstad said > most invertebrates, including lobsters and crabs boiled alive, do not > feel pain because, unlike mammals, they do not have a big brain to read > the signals. Norway might have considered banning the use of live worms > as fish bait if the study had found that they felt pain. Farstad said, > "It only seems to be only reflex curling when put on the hook. They might > sense something, but it is not painful and does not compromise their > well-being." > > > > Nick Wherley > Instructional Materials Specialist > Animal Sciences > Information Technology and Communication Services > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > (217) 244-5170 > Fax (217) 333-0005 > www.PublicationsPlus.uiuc.edu > Jacob M. DeDecker > Graduate Research Assistant > Department of Animal Sciences > University of Illinois > 1207 West Gregory Dr. > Urbana, IL. 61801 > (217) 244-3147 > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > > Stine B. Christiansen > cand.med.vet. (DVM), MSc, PhD-stud. > > Det Dyreetiske R=E5d/The Danish Animal Ethics Council > Center for Bioetik og Risikovurdering/Centre for Bioethics and Risk > Assessment > > Den Kgl. Veterin=E6r- og Landboh=F8jskole/The Royal Veterinary and > Agricultural University Bioetik/Bioethics > Gr=F8nneg=E5rdsvej 8 > 1870 Frederiksberg C > Copenhagen > Denmark > > tlf./ph.: +45 3528 3075 > fax: +45 3528 3022 > e-mail: sbc@kvl.dk > > > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 From: IN%"Canidresearch@aol.com" 15-FEB-2005 11:12:48.45 To: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? - a breath of fresh air... Whenever I am ready to unsubscribe to this list - some very interesting and=20 vitally important piece of information comes across my inbox. Chris - thank= =20 you so much for these references - very important group of information for=20 animal welfare.=20 Emily Weiss, Ph.D., CAAB=20 In a message dated 2/14/2005 10:18:59 AM Central Standard Time,=20 Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk writes: > Dear Jonathan and others, >=20 > I was asked a while ago to conduct a literature search of articles=20 > published since I wrote the review in 2001. I have summarised these below= . >=20 >=20 > A paper published last year describes the responses of cockroaches to a ho= t=20 > plate and the effects of morphine on their behaviour (Gritsai et al. 2004)= .=20 > Injections of morphine increased the amount of time that the cockroaches=20 > would spend on the hot plate - exactly as we would expect from an analgesi= c=20 > effect in vertebrates. This paper cites several others indicating that=20 > morphine has an apparent analgesic effect in a wide range of invertebrates= .=20 > There is a similar paper using the same technique on crickets (Zabala and=20 > Gomez 1991). Injections of water had no effect on the time that the=20 > crickets spent on the hot plate, whereas injections of morphine increased=20 > the time crickets spent on there. This was reversed (blocked) by naloxone= =20 > - again, exactly the response we would expect from vertebrates. In=20 > addition, suppression of the morphine injections on the 5th day produced a= =20 > hyper-response, which the authors interpreted as showing addiction. >=20 > Dyakonova (2001) has written a review on the role of opioid peptides in=20 > behaviour of invertebrates. Data are presented indicating that opioids=20 > give an apparent analgesic effect in leeches, molluscs, crabs and insects.= =20 > In many of these, naloxone reversed this analgesic effect - exactly as we=20 > would predict for vertebrates. >=20 > Griffen &Speck (2004) use new knowledge on the highly complex behaviour=20 > and communication of bees to argue that these invertebrates and others hav= e=20 > a degree of consciousness. >=20 > I have also found two papers examining the effects of morphine on the=20 > behaviour of crabs when they are struck between the eye-stalks (Lozda et=20 > al. 1988; Bergamo et al,1992). Injection of morphine produces a=20 > dose-dependent decrease in the crabs' defensive response to this stimulus. >=20 > Stefano et al. (2002) wrote a review that showed the stress=20 > neuroendocrinology of vertebrates and invertebrates can be remarkably=20 > similar. >=20 > Woolf at al. (1991) also wrote about similarities between vertebrates and=20 > invertebrates based on nociceptive sensitization. >=20 >=20 > References >=20 > Bergamo, P., Maldonado, H., Miralto, A. (1992). Opiate effect on the=20 > threat display in the crab carcinus-mediterraneus. PHARMACOLOGY=20 > BIOCHEMISTRY AND BEHAVIOR 42 (2): 323-326 >=20 > Dyakonova, V.E. (2001). Role of opioid peptides in behavior of=20 > invertebrates. JOURNAL OF EVOLUTIONARY BIOCHEMISTRY AND PHYSIOLOGY 37 (4)= :=20 > 335-347 >=20 > Griffin, D.R. & Speck, G.B. (2004). New evidence of animal consciousness.= =20 > ANIMAL COGNITION 7 (1): 5-18 >=20 > Gritsai, O.B., Dubynin, V.A., Pilipenko, V.E., Petrov, O.P. (2004).=20 > Effects of peptide and non-peptide opioids on protective reaction of the=20 > cockroach Periplaneta americana in the "hot camera". JOURNAL OF=20 > EVOLUTIONARY BIOCHEMISTRY AND PHYSIOLOGY 40 (2): 153-160 >=20 > Lozda, M., Romanao, A. and Maldonado, H. (1988) Effect of morphine and=20 > naloxone on a defensive response of the crab, chasmagnathus-granulatus.=20 > PHARMACOLOGY BIOCHEMISTRY AND BEHAVIOR. 30 (3): 635-640 >=20 > Stefano, G.B., Cadet P, Zhu, W., Rialas, C.M., Mantione, K., Benz, D.,=20 > Fuentes, R., Casares, F., Fricchione, G.L., Fulop, Z., Slingsby, B. (2002)= .=20 > The blueprint for stress can be found in invertebrates NEUROENDOCRINOLOGY=20 > LETTERS. 23 (2): 85-93 >=20 > Woolf, C.J. and Walters E.T. (1991) Common patterns of plasticity=20 > contributing to nociceptive sensitization in mammals and Aplysia. TRENDS=20 > IN NEUROSCIENCES 14 (2): 74-78 >=20 > Abstract: (Woolf et al 1991) > In contrast to innocuous stimuli, which only have transient effects when=20 > applied to the body surface, noxious stimuli generate persistent changes i= n=20 > the nervous system. This nociceptive memory manifests itself most=20 > prominently as a post-injury sensitization where, after tissue damage, the= =20 > avoidance reaction and pain that result from subsequent stimuli are=20 > exaggerated and prolonged and can be initiated by low intensity stimuli.=20 > Similarities between nociceptive sensitization in mammals (including=20 > humans) and the mollusc Aplysia californica suggest that fundamental=20 > mechanisms contributing to injury-induced behavioral modifications might b= e=20 > widespread in the animal kingdom. >=20 >=20 > Zabala, N.A. and GomezM.A. (1991). Morphine analgesia, tolerance and=20 > addiction in the Cricket. Pharmacol, Biochem, Behav. 40: 887-891 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --On 11 February 2005 16:25 +0000 jonathan balcombe =20 > wrote: >=20 > > > >I share another contributor's concern about taking these conclusions > >face-value, and recommend the following paper for in informed and often > >surprising exploration of the question of sentience in invertebrates > >(admittedly a catch-all term spanning an enormous diversity of > >life-forms): > >Sherwin CM. 2001. Can invertebrates suffer? Or, how robust is > >argument-by-analogy? Animal Welfare 10: S103-118. > >Jonathan Balcombe, Ph.D. > >Research Consultant > >Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine > > > >20 Nunthorpe Road > >York YO23 1BG > >UK > >(01904) 610 398 > >international: + 44 1904 610 398 > >pumilla@onetel.com > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Stine B Christiansen" > >To: > >Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 3:23 PM > >Subject: Svar: Fw: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? > > > >Just FYI if someone are interested in more info or to qualify the > >potential debate over this: > > > >The conclusion is made by a panel on the basis of a literature study > >(similar concept as EFSA). The conclusion is drawn with caution, > >mentioning the lack of knowledge and need for research. > > > >The opion of the panel and the report can both be found at: > >www.vkm.no > > > >Stine > > > >>>>Stanley Curtis 11-02-05 15:46:47 >>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jake DeDecker > > To: bpetersn@uiuc.edu ; bcorrigan@vitaplus.com ; > >daniel.hamilton@worldnet.att.net ; branavar@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu > >; eocastan@uiuc.edu ; m-ellis7@uiuc.edu ; James@lysine.com ; > >mkocher02@yahoo.com ; ritter@uiuc.edu ; securtis@uiuc.edu ; > >hollisg@uiuc.edu Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:34 AM > > Subject: Fwd: Worm on a Hook or Boiling live Lobsters? > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > I receive several animal care and husbandry newsletters each week and > >usually they are full of stuff that would be boring to the average > >person. Typically they contain articles about market trends, nutrition, > >and how to properly brush your dog or pet your cat. They do contain a > >lot of information about animal pain and suffering, mostly to fuel or > >distinguish PETA fires. One story stuck out in this weeks Drovers Report > >about whether or not a worm feels pain when placed on a hook or a lobster > >or crab feels pain when thrown into a pot of boiling water. This is > >something I have always thought about. I assumed they did, but dismissed > >it as an act of good for the betterment of God's children. Well I was > >wrong! If you are interested, read the article below. > > > > Nick > > > > > > Norwegians study pain and distress of invertebrates > > A scientific study funded by the Norwegian government has determined > >that worms squirming on a fishhook feel no pain. Nor do lobsters and > >crabs cooked in boiling water. The government called for the study on > >pain, discomfort and stress in invertebrates to help in the planned > >revision of Norway's animal-protection law. Professor Wenche Farstad said > >most invertebrates, including lobsters and crabs boiled alive, do not > >feel pain because, unlike mammals, they do not have a big brain to read > >the signals. Norway might have considered banning the use of live worms > >as fish bait if the study had found that they felt pain. Farstad said, > >"It only seems to be only reflex curling when put on the hook. They might > >sense something, but it is not painful and does not compromise their > >well-being." > > > > > > > > Nick Wherley > > Instructional Materials Specialist > > Animal Sciences > > Information Technology and Communication Services > > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > > (217) 244-5170 > > Fax (217) 333-0005 > > www.PublicationsPlus.uiuc.edu > > Jacob M. DeDecker > > Graduate Research Assistant > > Department of Animal Sciences > > University of Illinois > > 1207 West Gregory Dr. > > Urbana, IL. 61801 > > (217) 244-3147 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >------- > > > >Stine B. Christiansen > >cand.med.vet. (DVM), MSc, PhD-stud. > > > >Det Dyreetiske R=E5d/The Danish Animal Ethics Council > >Center for Bioetik og Risikovurdering/Centre for Bioethics and Risk > >Assessment > > > >Den Kgl. Veterin=E6r- og Landboh=F8jskole/The Royal Veterinary and > >Agricultural University Bioetik/Bioethics > >Gr=F8nneg=E5rdsvej 8 > >1870 Frederiksberg C > >Copenhagen > >Denmark > > > >tlf./ph.: +45 3528 3075 > >fax: +45 3528 3022 > >e-mail: sbc@kvl.dk > > > > > > >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > Chris Sherwin > Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare > Division Clinical Veterinary Science > University of Bristol > Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > Phone 0117 928 9486 >=20 Emily Weiss, Ph.D., CAAB EWC 2672 SW Indianola Benton, KS, 67017 (316) 778-1991 www.emilyweiss.com Providing Positive Humane Solutions=20