Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: John Burchard Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:28:37 -0800 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , Sabine Goubau CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay R. Feierman wrote: > > A dog's world is a world of odors and smell, as smell is a much more > > important sense to a dog than it is to a human. When I take one of my > > dogs out at night for a walk, I notice that he constantly has his > > nose to the ground, as though he is constantly sniffing his way > > around our property. He is almost oblivious to the visual world at > > night. Typically, imitation learning means learning by visual > > observation. However, there is also imitation learning by auditory > > stimuli. I can speak Spanish in a conversational way but my > > vocabulary is poor and often my pronunciation is poor. When someone > > who is a native Spanish speaker talks to me in Spanish, they often > > repeat a word I just said in Spanish. When they do that, I then > > repeat the word back and smile to acknowledge their help in my > > learning pronunciation or sometimes grammar by imitation learning. > > > > I have noticed that when my grandchildren watch Animal Planet on TV > > that one of our dogs, who is on the bed with them, is totally > > oblivious to the various dogs that are on the screen. Occasionally, > > when one of the dogs on the TV barks, the dog will look up at the TV. > > I also noted that this same dog once reacted to the same way when in > > a movie, a young woman screamed. Yet, other than these sounds, the > > dog is oblivious to the visual aspects of what's on the TV. > > > > We also know that dogs are almost oblivious to their reflections in > > the mirror. The question is not if they recognize themselves, as the > > higher apes can do when looking in the mirror. They don't react to > > the dog image in the mirror at all, even if they were to perceive it > > as another dog. Yet, when I go to my daughter's house where she has > > two dogs, my dog gives me the 3rd degree in terms of a total smell > > evaluation when I return home from her house. There are very great differences among different dog types in the importance (or lack thereof) they attach to visual cues. While it is probably true that for dogs (like most non-primate mammals) olfaction is normally the most important sensory modality, there are dog breeds or types with excellent vision - for instance, those which hunt primarily by sight (the "sighthounds"). The Salukis with which I live, and with which I hunt regularly, are able to follow a fleeing hare through brush and other obstacles at speeds close to 40 mph. Olfaction plays little or no role in that pursuit, and hearing at best a secondary role, while the primary orientation is clearly visual. If they lose sight of their quarry, and cannot re-locate it quickly by sound or scent, they typically give up the pursuit. These dogs show a lively interest in TV or video, if it shows other dogs (especially in pursuit of prey or lures) or prey animals. At least some of them also react to their image in a mirror. The most typical response is to approach the mirror, and then try to look behind it (they do this with a TV set too, especially if dogs are in the picture). Salukis (some of them anyway, there are of course individual differences, perhaps especially in show stock no longer selected for hunting ability) seem to have excellent vision. They often detect and respond appropriately to the appearance of prey animals, at distances which force me to use binoculars to see what they are reacting to. It's not uncommon for them to identify apparently motionless quarry at distances of many hundreds of yards. In some of those cases we can, indeed, be sure they are not detecting movement of the quarry - namely, when it turns out to be a lifelike bronze statue! Wolves also have, AFAIK, excellent vision. Their social interactions involve, inter alia, an extensive, highly differentiated and subtle repertoire of visual signals. Their hunting behavior also involves, once the prey has been located, vision as a prominent if not the primary sensory modality. There are, of course, many dog breeds whose visual abilities are greatly inferior to those of sighthounds (or of wolves), and some whose reliance on olfaction is so extreme one might be forgiven for thinking they hardly use their eyes at all. Some of the hounds bred for scent trailing (and during their education actively discouraged from chasing by sight) are good examples of this other end of the scale. > > Therefore, based on the above, it would seem quite difficult to get a > > dog to modify his behavior through learning by just observing a > > human. To rule out that there were not other cues involved, I would > > want the learning to occur just by a video with no sound of a human > > doing something. My sense is that the dog would totally ignore the > > video like a dog ignores the TV. Yet, I am aware that a dog can pick > > up body language and pointing cues from a human. I suspect it does > > that by association learning but I don't know the literature on this. > > I'm sure it's been studied by the Budapest dog group. It matters greatly, also, just what behavior is being copied. For example, in social canids, social facilitation - including copying the behaviors of others - is very much a normal part of hunting and/or food-finding activities. It matters, also, whether the behavior being copied is already part of an animal's inventory, or is something new for that individual - and then, whether or not it is something novel, not part of any individual's normal repertoire. Consider the case of a litter of 9 Saluki puppies. When they were, I suppose, around five weeks old, we decided to teach them to "sit" for a small food reward. It took only a couple of minutes to teach one puppy to "sit." The others, observing their colleague getting food by the simple expedient of applying hindquarters to the substrate, immediately began "sitting holes in the floor" in the determined (and of course successful ) attempt to manipulate the behavior of their human owner (oops, I mean servant ) to their own advantage. A bit of reflection on what might have been going on there will, I think, reveal the dangers of overly simplistic thinking in interpreting such observations . > > If you are interested in the application of Ethology to human > > behavior, you could join the Human Ethology Yahoo group > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/, which is > > sponsored by the International Society for Human Ethology > > http://www.ishe.org/ or see their upcoming '08 conference web page > > http://www.ishe08.org/ . By joining this group I'm trying to get more > > cross talk between the two groups, as each has something to offer the > > other. Hm, would I be welcome there as well? John -- John E. Burchard, Ph.D. Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ Subject: Re: Reference From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:17:15 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sorry, recently I keep getting e mails sent to the forum from people that say "unsubscribe". Can someone kindly tell me what this is referencing? Regards G Butcher Subject: RE: Reference From: Andy Beck Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 10:32:51 +1300 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Umm – members often don’t remember the way to unsubscribe, so just post an ‘unsubscribe’ mail to the group instead of following the listserv format. It usually occurs as a result of too many e-mails over a short space of time, or ‘grandstanding’, or as a negative reaction to the discussion – either boredom or disagreement. But I don’t remember ever seeing so many unsubscriptions from the list over such a short period of time – and would guess there’s something to be learnt from this also. Does seem a pity when it happens. Regards Andy Beck From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com [mailto:LyndhurstPark@aol.com] Sent: Friday, 1 February 2008 10:17 a.m. To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: Re: Reference Sorry, recently I keep getting e mails sent to the forum from people that say "unsubscribe". Can someone kindly tell me what this is referencing? Regards G Butcher Subject: Re: Reference From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:39:52 -0500 (EST) To: wheep@xtra.co.nz, applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Andy, This is why I flagged up my query. I have been a member for 3 years and have never seen this before. Given that it seem to be some sort of simultaneous/triggered wave of unsubscribing, I thought I had missed the catalyst behind this sudden universal action? Can anyone give light on this? Regards G Butcher In a message dated 31/01/2008 21:34:49 GMT Standard Time, wheep@xtra.co.nz writes: Umm – members often don’t remember the way to unsubscribe, so just post an ‘unsubscribe’ mail to the group instead of following the listserv format. It usually occurs as a result of too many e-mails over a short space of time, or ‘grandstanding’, or as a negative reaction to the discussion – either boredom or disagreement. But I don’t remember ever seeing so many unsubscriptions from the list over such a short period of time – and would guess there’s something to be learnt from this also. Does seem a pity when it happens. Regards Andy Beck From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com [mailto:LyndhurstPark@aol.com] Sent: Friday, 1 February 2008 10:17 a.m. To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: Re: Reference Sorry, recently I keep getting e mails sent to the forum from people that say "unsubscribe". Can someone kindly tell me what this is referencing? Regards G Butcher Subject: List bolters From: Robert DeFranco Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:40:11 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I agree, Andy. The discourse has been quite interesting and certainly within the realm of scholarly dialogue. Not sure what people are expecting here but I and many of my colleagues will continue to participate, or simply lurk and learn. Robert DeFranco, M.S., (Ph.D. in progress), B.C.C.A.B. President American College of Applied Science 123 Dream Pond Road P.O. Box 825 Crescent City, FL 32112-0825 USA U.S. Phone: 800-403-DEGREE (3347), ext 709 Phone from outside of the U.S. 011-1-772-539-8005 Fax: 386-698-3756 Email: rdefranco@amcollege.com Web site: http://amcollege.com Virtual Campus: http://amcollege.net Realizing your dreams through higher education. NOTICE: This e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended only for use by the named addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof. From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@xtra.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:33 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Reference Umm – members often don’t remember the way to unsubscribe, so just post an ‘unsubscribe’ mail to the group instead of following the listserv format. It usually occurs as a result of too many e-mails over a short space of time, or ‘grandstanding’, or as a negative reaction to the discussion – either boredom or disagreement. But I don’t remember ever seeing so many unsubscriptions from the list over such a short period of time – and would guess there’s something to be learnt from this also. Does seem a pity when it happens. Regards Andy Beck From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com [mailto:LyndhurstPark@aol.com] Sent: Friday, 1 February 2008 10:17 a.m. To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: Re: Reference Sorry, recently I keep getting e mails sent to the forum from people that say "unsubscribe". Can someone kindly tell me what this is referencing? Regards G Butcher Subject: Re: fear and aggression From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:45:27 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Lore Haug: In a theoretical aspect, this all makes sense and I understand your viewpoint. However, in practicality, what are your thoughts on the situation where a dog is confronted with a potential adversary. The dog makes a risk assessment and recognizes that it is unable to win an encounter with individual B. However, the dog also does not (for many potential reasons) feel confident that showing submission or freezing will turn off the attack from the adversary. (Let's say escape is not an option due to environmental confines or because individual B has passed critical distance and dog A cannot safely escape without making itself susceptible to increased injury). So dog A has two options: 'submit" and potential be killed, or "fight back". If the dogs inclination is to escape or submit, then fear is the motivational mood. What then explains the aggression that actually occurs in dog A? Does the animal suddenly just become "angry"? Jay R. Feierman: I realize the problem. I am talking about what happens in wild animals in their natural environments. When one talks about domestic dog breeds, because of strong human selection for both structural and specific behavioral traits, some of the so called "instincts," which should under natural conditions prevent a domestic dog from attacking rather than being submissive when the adversary is overwhelmingly more powerful, can be weakened because of lack of selection pressure for such things. That is the case regarding lots of the behavior of domestic animals. We once had three male turkeys who we spared from Thanksgiving dinner one year and just let them hang around the barnyard and live until old age. In the summer time we would occasionally get a hail storm with little pea size pieces of ice falling from the sky. When this would occur, all the other barnyard animals (chickens, goats, sheep, ducks, geese, horses) would go under cover into the barn. However, all three of the turkeys would just stand in the middle of the barnyard and get pelted by hail stones for five minutes or so. I always presumed that this apparent stupidity was because they came from a long line of cage-reared birds who were only selected for their meat production and not for this type of common sense behavior. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: RE: List bolters From: Andy Beck Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 10:56:06 +1300 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca ……..sure – me too – delete key editing is a quick and easy alternative. Regards Andy Beck www.equine-behavior.com From: Robert DeFranco [mailto:rdefranco@amcollege.com] Sent: Friday, 1 February 2008 10:40 a.m. To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: List bolters I agree, Andy. The discourse has been quite interesting and certainly within the realm of scholarly dialogue. Not sure what people are expecting here but I and many of my colleagues will continue to participate, or simply lurk and learn. Robert DeFranco, M.S., (Ph.D. in progress), B.C.C.A.B. President American College of Applied Science 123 Dream Pond Road P.O. Box 825 Crescent City, FL 32112-0825 USA U.S. Phone: 800-403-DEGREE (3347), ext 709 Phone from outside of the U.S. 011-1-772-539-8005 Fax: 386-698-3756 Email: rdefranco@amcollege.com Web site: http://amcollege.com Virtual Campus: http://amcollege.net Realizing your dreams through higher education. NOTICE: This e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended only for use by the named addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof. From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@xtra.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:33 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Reference Umm – members often don’t remember the way to unsubscribe, so just post an ‘unsubscribe’ mail to the group instead of following the listserv format. It usually occurs as a result of too many e-mails over a short space of time, or ‘grandstanding’, or as a negative reaction to the discussion – either boredom or disagreement. But I don’t remember ever seeing so many unsubscriptions from the list over such a short period of time – and would guess there’s something to be learnt from this also. Does seem a pity when it happens. Regards Andy Beck From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com [mailto:LyndhurstPark@aol.com] Sent: Friday, 1 February 2008 10:17 a.m. To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: Re: Reference Sorry, recently I keep getting e mails sent to the forum from people that say "unsubscribe". Can someone kindly tell me what this is referencing? Regards G Butcher Subject: Observational Learning From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:08:54 -0700 To: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" , applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Chris Sherwin: I'm getting rather confused by what we animal behaviourists would consider to be observational learning and what you are arguing - could you please point me in the direction of the definition human ethologists would use. Jay R. Feierman: Yes, I'm confused as well. I realize that I was not being clear as to the distinction between social learning, observation learning and imitation learning. The Wikipedia piece I've pasted below was helpful to me in making this distinction. I was not making a distinction between observational learning and imitation learning. As a result, bees engage in observational learning. They are not engaging in imitation learning. Both are examples of social learning. I suspect it requires the ability to engage in imitation learning for a species to develop culture. What taxa can learn by observation as well as by imitation? The other issue is that if an individual is "programmed" genetically to react with a specific behavior in response to a particular "social releaser" coming from another individual, is that an example of observational learning? I don't think so because the behavior which is released is a structurally defined coordinated motor pattern. There was really nothing the individual learned. The structurally defined coordinated motor pattern was released upon exposure to a specific social releaser because the individual's ancestors who so responded left more descendents. When a male robin in a territory attacks another male robin or even a stick with red feathers on it that are in the male robin's territory, I doubt that people would consider this to be observational learning, even though the behavior of the territory holding robin was modified by seeing the intruding robin or the model of red feathers on a stick. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Observational learning From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search For other uses, see Social learning. Observational learning (also known as: vicarious learning or social learning or modeling) is learning that occurs as a function of observing, retaining and, in the case of imitation learning, replicating novel behavior executed by others. It is most associated with the work of psychologist Albert Bandura, who implemented some of the seminal studies in the area and initiated social learning theory. It involves the process of learning to copy or model the action of another through observing another doing it. Further research has been used to show a connection between observational learning and both classical and operant conditioning. [1] Many mistake observational learning with imitation. The two terms are different in the sense that observational learning leads to a change in behavior due to observing a model. This does not mean that the behavior exhibited by the model is duplicated. It could mean that the observer would do the opposite of the model behavior because he or she has learned the consequence of that particular behavior. Consider the case of learning what NOT to do. In such a case, there is observational learning without imitation. Although observational learning can take place at any stage in life, it is thought to be particularly important during childhood, particularly as authority becomes important. The best role models are those a year or two older for observational learning. Because of this, social learning theory has influenced debates on the effect of television violence and parental role models. Bandura's Bobo doll experiment is widely cited in psychology as a demonstration of observational learning and demonstrated that children are more likely to engage in violent play with a life size rebounding doll after watching an adult do the same. However, it may be that children will only reproduce a model's behavior if it has been reinforced. This may be the problem with television because it was found, by Otto Larson and his coworkers (1968), that 56% of the time children's television characters achieve their goals through violent acts. Observational learning allows for learning without any change in behavior and has therefore been used as an argument against strict behaviorism which argued that behavior change must occur for new behaviors to be acquired. Bandura noted that "social imitation may hasten or short-cut the acquisition of new behaviors without the necessity of reinforcing successive approximations as suggested by Skinner (1953)."[2] It is possible to treat observational learning as merely a variation of operant training. According to this view, first proposed by Neal Miller and John Dollard, the changes in an observer's behavior are due to the consequences of the observer's behavior, not those of the model. "[3]" As an interesting aside, there are a number of variables which have confounded the study of observational learning in animals. One of these is the Venus Effect in which animals are sexual stimulated by the model and this interferes with the ability to observe behavior thereby limiting the ability to make associations based on the behavior of the model. (See Warden and Jackson 1935) Subject: Unsubscribe requests From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:50:51 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I just realized that the reason there were a number of unsubscribe requests to the applied ethology list was because I sent copies to several of the postings to both the Yahoo Human Ethology group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ whose e-mail is human-ethology@yahoogroups.com as well as to the applied-ethology listserv. I think some people thought that they had become members of the human ethology group and sent an e-mail to unsubscribe. I got one specific e-mail to me as the moderator of this group asking me to take the person off the group. I wrote back and explained what happened and told them they were not a member of the group. I don't believe that I sent any posting to the applied ethology group that was not directly applicable to animal behavior. Sorry for any confusion or problem my duel postings caused. I was just trying to get some cross-disciplinary interaction between non-human and human ethologists interested in behavior, as I thought we could both learn from one another. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Subject: cats on doors and sheep on cars From: Kayce Cover Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:13:51 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Chris, You make a cogent point. I agree, that observational learning is instinctual, as is the impetus for all learning, probably. We can probably only enhance what instinct facilitates. I guess it depends on the definitions you accept. The sheep are certainly observing the first sheep and may or may not be imitating him. And, I believe your cat jumping on doors is instrumental learning, which is a subset of operant, which may be observational and is arguably imitational, as she is using her paw to open the door. The hierarchy of terminology makes it really difficult to keep track of terms here, especially when we are not all using the same dictionary. I don't know what Jay's dictionary is and will ask him next. Regards, Kayce Kayce Cover MSEd, BS An Sci, CABC IAABC Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com PO Box 8788, Norfolk, VA 23503-0788 001 757 588 5967 or 001 757 609 5066 > > Jenny, > > > > I have seen this behaviour many times with sheep. What usually seems > > to > > happen is that the first sheep sees something like a shadow on the > > ground > > and jumps over this. The following sheep also then jump at the same > > point. > > But, are they jumping because they see the same shadow, or are they > > jumping > > because they see the sheep in front of them jump? > > > > I am not sure why Jay uses the term 'instinctual' as an apparent > > reason for > > this NOT being observational learning. Isn't observational learning > > in > > humans 'instinctual'? > > > > Chris > > Subject: Re: Confirmation bias was: Observational Learning From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:32:35 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jenny, I think the main problem was not so much with my political brain, which I'm sure I have, but rather with my terminology. I was using "observational learning" synonymously with "imitation learning" and considering both to be synonyms under social learning. I just posted a Wikipedia article from which I learned some something information. With observational learning an animal could learn not to engage in a behavior by observing another animal. My understanding is that observational learning just means that the behavior of one animal is modified or influenced by the behavior of another animal. In contrast, imitation learning means that the behavior of one animal is copied exactly by another animal. Imitation learning is a prerequisite for the development of culture in which information can be transmitted across generations by imitation learning. My understanding is that observational learning is more widespread among animal taxa but that imitation learning is restricted to only a few taxa of primates, some sea mammals and some birds. That which is imitated can be either visual or auditory. Someone also mentioned elephants. I don't know about this. Within this terminology imitation learning is a type of observation learning and both imitation and observation learning would be examples of social learning. Learning is not my real area of expertise, so I'm open to learning. My question to this group is as follows: Given these definitions of both observational learning and imitation learning, what taxa engage in observational and imitation learning? There is then the issue of when the behavior of one animal acts as a "social releaser" (in an ethological sense) for a specific, coordinated motor pattern in another animal. Examples include lots of the courtship behaviors, dominance-submissive behaviors, etc. I presume that these sorts of instinctual behaviors which are released by behaviors in a conspecific are excluded from what is meant by social learning. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: peterhaskins To: ethology Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 12:31 AM Subject: Confirmation bias was: Observational Learning I wonder if this study (see URLs below) doesn't help explain why Jay insists that he's seen no evidence of observational learning in non-primate animals? Cheers, Jenny H http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=13&articleID=000CE155-1061-1493-906183414B7F0162 Scientific American Magazine - July, 2006 The Political Brain Excerpt " human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion ... draws all things else to support and agree with it. And though there be a greater number and weight of instances to be found on the other side, yet these it either neglects and despises ... in order that by this great and pernicious predetermination the authority of its former conclusions may remain inviolate. --Francis Bacon, Novum Organum, 1620 Pace Will Rogers, I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a libertarian. As a fiscal conservative and social liberal, I have found at least something to like about each Republican or Democrat I have met. I have close friends in both camps, in which I have observed the following: no matter the issue under discussion, both sides are equally convinced that the evidence overwhelmingly supports their position. This surety is called the confirmation bias, whereby we seek and find confirmatory evidence in support of already existing beliefs and ignore or reinterpret disconfirmatory evidence. or http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060131092225.htm Emory Study Lights Up The Political Brain ScienceDaily (Jan. 31, 2006) — When it comes to forming opinions and making judgments on hot political issues, partisans of both parties don't let facts get in the way of their decision-making, according to a new Emory University study. The research sheds light on why staunch Democrats and Republicans can hear the same information, but walk away with opposite conclusions. . . Subject: Re: Observational Learning From: peterhaskins Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:31:13 +1100 To: ethology CC: "Jay R. Feierman" From: Jay R. Feierman I believe that "observational" learning implies learning by observing visually. . . . A requirement for culture or cultural transmission is that the species has to have some type of capability for imitation/social learning so that what is learned can be transmitted across generations outside of DNA. Jay R. Feierman I believe that this is too narrow a definition of 'Observation' and does not gel with my understanding of the use of the term in science or psychology. In "The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology 3rd edition" I have these definitions: OBSERVATION 1. Most generally, and form of examination of events, behavious, phenomena, etc., 2. By extension, any individual datum, score, value, etc. that rtepersents an event, behaviour, phenomena. Not that on occasions 'observation' may be used in contrast to 'experiment'. This distinction marks the fact that many regard scientific work based on so-called OBSERVATIONAL METHODS as non-experimental. In thuis sense the distinction is justified, although on the other side of the coin lies the argument that such a differentiation is really unnecessary since an experimentis merely one way of making an observation. The terms need to be kept conceptually separate when one wishes to distinguish between research that is controlled by manipulation of independent variables and research that is carried ourt using NATURALISTIC OBSERVATION. 3. A casual informal commentary upon or interpretation of that which has been observed. LEARNING OBSERVATION(AL) A term coined by A Bandura to characterise the learning that takes place simply by having the learner observe someone else perform the to-be-acquired behaviour. The Onelook dictioay site comes up with these: Quick definitions (observation) # noun: the act of observing; taking a patient look # noun: the act of making and recording a measurement # noun: facts learned by observing (Example: "He reported his observations to the mayor") # noun: a remark expressing careful consideration # noun: the act of noticing or paying attention See http://www.onelook.com/?w=observation&ls=a for more complete definitions. Or some more site for definitions of "Observational Learning" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observational_learning Observational learning From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://www.funderstanding.com/observational_learning.cfm Excerpt: "Observational learning, also called social learning theory, occurs when an observer's behavior changes . . ." http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/soccog/soclrn.html Observational (Social) Learning: An Overview And excerpts from the AlleyDog Psychological Glossary: http://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.cfm?term=Observational%20Learning Observational Learning: The process of acquiring information by observing others. Learning to tie your shoe by observing another individual perform the task would be an example of observational learning. http://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.cfm?term=Observer%20Bias Observer Bias: Observer bias is quite similar to Demand Characteristics except that the bias is with the "observers" of the research (i.e., the research team) rather than the participants. In other words, observer bias occurs when the observers (or researcher team) know the goals of the study or the hypotheses and allow this knowledge to influence their observations during the study. For example, if an observer knows that the researcher hypothesized that females speak in more complex sentences, they may believe they hear females speaking that way during the study even if it's not really true. Generally in these reference there is no proviso that the observatiuon must be visual. A quck search of Google (because it's better referenced thatn my own files :-) brought up this article about "Observation" of bird song. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3793/is_200601/ai_n17186944 "The Singing Life of Birds" Also note than in none of these references could I find anyallusion to the necessity of Observational Learning resulting in a "Culture". However, if you want to specify 'culture' then there is clear evidence that observation does not have to be visual in the study of bird song. Many species of bird do show cultural differences in their song. See: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070709111421.htm More on: Birds, Mating and Breeding, Nature, Biology, Evolutionary Biology, Wild Animals Excerpt: "Evolutionary biologists have been puzzling over why bird songs of a single species can vary significantly from one population to the next, but Derryberry's work shows the songs changing with time as well. . . Bird song is something "cultural" that distinguishes bird populations; it is learned, it takes on regional variations and it changes with time." These others have passing relevance to the discussion too. http://www.world-science.net/othernews/061204_city-bird.htm City birds sing their own tune http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/050516_canary_songs.html Canaries Change Their Tune http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/041208_sparrow_songs.html Scientists Teach Sparrows to Sing Backward Cheers, Jenny H Coffs Australia Subject: Re: Confirmation Bias From: Tricia Breen Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:33:00 -0800 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca It certainly is evident that a lot of debate has taken place without making definitions clear. And bias is present in all of us, as it is in our experimental models, controls or no controls. It’s a human endeavor, so always flawed in conclusions. Tricia Subject: Jay re bees From: Kayce Cover Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:54:22 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca The bee is transmitting four or five dimensions of information, all of it variable. Receiving bees must respond variably according to the information transmitted (or their perception of it). The primary mode of reception is observational. It is more than a releasing signal. Complex information is received by observers, decoded and then used to map their own expeditions. Pollen collection is the riskiest job anyway and left to the most experienced bees. Regards, Kayce Kayce Cover MSEd, BS An Sci, CABC IAABC Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com PO Box 8788, Norfolk, VA 23503-0788 001 757 588 5967 or 001 757 609 5066 Jay: "Social > > learning implies ontogenetic learning where the content of what is > > learned is more variable than the orientation a bee needs to fly to find > > nectar bearing flowers. The bee which receives the information is obliged > > to follow the information embedded in the waggle dance. There is an > > innate behavior whose direction or orientation is released by the form of > > the waggle dance of the returning bee. If you want to call that social > > learning, it is a very fixed sort of social learning where there is no > > flexibility to that which is learned. And, the waggle dance is not > > copied, it just contains information which directs the bees at the hive > > in the correct direction. I don't see this as much different than when a > > ground squirrel gives a species-specific alarm call that a predator, such > > as a hawk, is seen. When the other squirrels hear the alarm call they > > automatically run into their burrows. Their behavior is not copying the > > behavior of the alarm sounding squirrel. Rather, the sound of the alarm > > call acted as a releasing stimulus for the run in your burrow behavior." Subject: crying foul - no Wikipedia citations! From: Kayce Cover Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:09:15 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Wikipedia is an anonymous, unrefereed, uncredentialled work that is not accepted as a reference citation . Not a good reference for technical terms. (even if it IS fun to read) Regards, Kayce Kayce Cover MSEd, BS An Sci, CABC IAABC Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com PO Box 8788, Norfolk, VA 23503-0788 001 757 588 5967 or 001 757 609 5066 Subject: Re: Observational Learning From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:17:00 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jenny H: Generally in these reference there is no provision that the observation must be visual. Jay R. Feierman: Some of this is just semantics. A science can limit a definition to a specific meaning. I would agree that imitation learning does not have to be visual, as it can be auditory, as when someone learns a local language or dialect. Many bird songs require listening to other birds of the same species sing their song to be acquired correctly. However, if a vocalization of an animal causes another animal to change the orientatation (direction) of their behavior, that is not imitation learning. If the only other choice is observation learning, it seems odd to say that the animal whose orientation (direction) of behavior was changed "observed" the sound. In the Miriam Webster Dictionary the definition of "observe" is as follows: transitive verb1: to conform one's action or practice to (as a law, rite, or condition) : comply with 2: to inspect or take note of as an augury, omen, or presage 3: to celebrate or solemnize (as a ceremony or festival) in a customary or accepted way 4 a: to watch carefully especially with attention to details or behavior for the purpose of arriving at a judgment b: to make a scientific observation on or of 5: to come to realize or know especially through consideration of noted facts 6: to utter as a remark intransitive verb1 a: to take notice b: to make observations : watch2: remark comment In 4 I see "to watch." I don't see anything specifically about hearing. However, some of the meanings of the word are general enough to encompass hearing, such as 5 to come to realize or know. Are you suggesting that observation learning should include that which is learned by hearing? I'm not disagreeing. I'm just not used to thinking of observation as anything other than visual. Again, learning by hearing easily fits into imitation learning. I note in one of your references http://www.funderstanding.com/observational_learning.cfm it says "Definition: Observational learning, also called social learning theory, occurs when an observer's behavior changes after viewing the behavior of a model. An observer's behavior can be affected by the positive or negative consequences--called vicarious reinforcement or vicarious punishment-- of a model's behavior." It does not say, "such as viewing the behavior of a model," which might imply that if one just heard a sound which influenced behavior that would be observational learning as well. In another one of your references http://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.cfm?term=Observational%20Learning it says, "Observational Learning: The process of acquiring information by observing others. Learning to tie your shoe by observing another individual perform the task would be an example of observational learning." The example they give is visual and no mention of anything auditory. You then say, "Generally in these reference there is no proviso that the observation must be visual." That's true but there are no examples I could find where someone gave an example of an auditory sound and used the term "observational learning." You then say, "Also note than in none of these references could I find any allusion to the necessity of Observational Learning resulting in a "Culture". I don't believe I said that. I think I said that imitation learning is prerequisite for culture. What is imitated could be either something perceived visually or through auditory means. I have now learned that not all observation learning is imitation learning. You then say, "However, if you want to specify 'culture' then there is clear evidence that observation does not have to be visual in the study of bird song. Many species of bird do show cultural differences in their song." Yes, I agree completely. However, I would say that in the species of birds in which an individual has to hear the species-typical song to sing it, this is an example of imitation learning. It seems stretched for me to call this "observation" learning. Given all of the above, there are times where the term "observation" is used in a general way to describe field studies where one is learning about a species' behavior. In science, including ethology, the first step is usually called observation and description or the descriptive stage. That would include all that could be learned about a species through the senses of the person who is the investigator. I suspect taking note of the sounds made by the species would be considered part of scientific observation. Again, maybe this is just semantics. I've never heard of a field study called "observation and listening." Anyway, thank you for your information, as I have learned a lot. Learning and is not one of my areas of expertise, which may be obvious. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Jay re bees From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:52:55 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Kayce Cover: The bee is transmitting four or five dimensions of information, all of it variable. Receiving bees must respond variably according to the information transmitted (or their perception of it). The primary mode of reception is observational. It is more than a releasing signal. Complex information is received by observers, decoded and then used to map their own expeditions. Pollen collection is the riskiest job anyway and left to the most experienced bees. Jay R. Feierman: First, I'm not an expert on bees but find the topic interesting. You say that the bees must respond variably according to the information transmitted. The waggle dance itself may be the social releasing stimulus for foraging behavior in the perceiving bee. The information embedded in the waggle dance modifies the perceiving bees' orientation (direction) and timing of flight. Animals can modify their coordinated motor patterns in orientation (direction) and timing by ontogenetically acquired information from their environment. It seems that for each variation in the waggle dance's orientation (direction) and timing, there is a fixed variation corresponding to it that will occur in the ensuing behavior of the perceiving bee. Subject: Re: Reference From: Audrey Schwartz Rivers Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:43:04 -0600 To: ethology network Alan wrote: > Umm – members often don’t remember the way to unsubscribe, so just post an ‘unsubscribe’ mail to the group instead of following the listserv format. It usually occurs as a result of too many e-mails over a short space of time, or ‘grandstanding’, or as a negative reaction to the discussion – either boredom or disagreement. But I don’t remember ever seeing so many unsubscriptions from the list over such a short period of time – and would guess there’s something to be learnt from this also. Does seem a pity when it happens. > > > Regards > Andy Beck Hmmmm -- or perhaps an example of "observational learning!" :-) Audrey Schwartz Rivers, MS Subject: Re: Jay re bees From: Kayce Cover Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:46:49 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Every morning, when working with animals, the curator or keeper leader briefs the keepers/trainers. If you can decode the briefing, you can predict the actions of the humans who were the intended recipients of the briefing. This does not mean that their actions are fixed patterns. Similarly, in bees, there is a study, which I can't find, on renegade bees that do not fly where told to fly. The curator may end the meeting with some set signal, like "Go forth and be great!" The recipients have learned that in that context, that phrase is a releasing signal. However, in a different context, that signal might have a different function. I find many of these things very plastic. Many people bump through life without great conscious discernment. If I ask someone how to get to their own house, they often can't tell me, although they get there on their own, easily. However, the next day, they will come prepared with step-by-step directions. By asking them a question, I brought them to conscious awareness. Many have alluded to this process, but with animals, here. Any living thing may do many complex things (like driving, or typing) without being consciously aware of it. This does not mean they are not capable of conscious thought/action. However, you might watch a person a long time before seeing them express any capacity beyond rote behavior. We know they have these capacities, nonetheless. Many of us who work with animals, rather than observe them without interaction, keep saying, with many different examples, that animals are capable of imitation, observation, and I will say now, conscious thought. (Forget about the "mirror" test, why does a dog come when you call his name if he does not have a sense of self?). Unfortunately, I am shirking my work and must leave this conversation for awhile. Regards, Kayce PS I put together a bunch of examples myself, but realized that it is getting bothersome to others, so will not post them here. If you would like to see them, send a private email and I'll send them along. > > Kayce Cover: The bee is transmitting four or five dimensions of > > information, all of it variable. Receiving bees must respond > > variably according to the information transmitted (or their > > perception of it). The primary mode of reception is observational. > > It is more than a releasing signal. Complex information is received > > by observers, decoded and then used to map their own expeditions. > > Pollen collection is the riskiest job anyway and left to the most > > experienced bees. > > > > Jay R. Feierman: First, I'm not an expert on bees but find the topic > > interesting. You say that the bees must respond variably according > > to the information transmitted. The waggle dance itself may be the > > social releasing stimulus for foraging behavior in the perceiving > > bee. The information embedded in the waggle dance modifies the > > perceiving bees' orientation (direction) and timing of flight. > > Animals can modify their coordinated motor patterns in orientation > > (direction) and timing by ontogenetically acquired information from > > their environment. It seems that for each variation in the waggle > > dance's orientation (direction) and timing, there is a fixed > > variation corresponding to it that will occur in the ensuing > > behavior of the perceiving bee. > > > > Regards, Kayce Kayce Cover MSEd, BS An Sci, CABC IAABC Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com PO Box 8788, Norfolk, VA 23503-0788 001 757 588 5967 or 001 757 609 5066 Subject: Re: Reference From: FraidyCat Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:50:15 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca << and would guess there’s something to be learnt from this also. Does seem a pity when it happens. >> I agree, Andy. I figured the same. Much of this topic is over my head; however, I take in as much as I can b/c I find it fascinating. Thanks for letting me partake. :) Subject: Joining applied ethology From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:23:43 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Can someone give the instructions for joining the applied-ethology list. A few people from the Human Ethology Yahoo group want to but don't know how to join. I've lost my instructions. Thanks, Jay R. Feierman Subject: RE: Joining applied ethology From: Tricia Breen Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:51:43 -0800 To: "'Jay R. Feierman'" , applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/ From: Jay R. Feierman [mailto:jfeierman@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:24 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Cc: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Subject: Joining applied ethology Can someone give the instructions for joining the applied-ethology list. A few people from the Human Ethology Yahoo group want to but don't know how to join. I've lost my instructions. Thanks, Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: Observational learning From: peterhaskins Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:34:23 +1100 To: ethology From: "Peter Kabai" > And we might add, that language learning in humans, song learning in birds and a whole spectrum of learning is possible not only because of the capacity (as space in the brain), but mainly because of systems specifically pre-wired (DNA) not only to store but to seek relevant information.> > Parents might feel they teach their children to speak. In fact, parents only teach words and not speech - the child in the sensitive period does anything to get the names of things.> > The same might apply to social learning. Social animals adapted to cope with ever changing problems might be pre-wired to watch others solving tasks. Except for mirror neurons not much is known about the mechanism.> > Regards, Peter Kabai I dunno, but this seems to be making problems where none exist. Sure a human is genetically programmed to *LEARN* language. But the language itself is learned -- there is research (involving children adopted at birth into a different language group than the natural mother's) that shows that considerable language learning takes place in the womb. There is also considerable research on the development of creoles. There is also research to show that humans seem to have a very strong genetically-controlled tendency to learn by observation. This doesn't negate the fact that the learning is still observational. Note observational learning can be learning what behaviours and situations to avoid every bit as much as learning to imitate. (See Bandura's works re Observational learning in Kindergarten children.) I would venture to suggest that most social animals are genetically programmed to learn by observation of their conspecifics. Much research that appears to show that dogs do not learn by observation is actually merely showing that dogs don't learn (terribly well) from observing human behaviour. but other research has shown that they adjust their behaviour in certain circumstance from watching another dog's behaviour in these circumstances. (I've got some of this on file, but no time to search for it. I'm off for several weeks shortly so if anyone wants to know my references ask, but it will probably be over a month before I will have the time and availability of computers to reply.) I would suspect that research to see if children can learn by observing dogs would show very limited observational learning. Jenny H Coffs Australia Subject: From Virginia Bowen: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: peterhaskins Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:44:48 +1100 To: ethology [note: I am Jenny, my husband is Peter :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Virginia Bowen" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:54 PM Subject: FW: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > Peter, below is my reply which I cannot seem to post to the list. I've had > that problem for a while now and cannot seem to figure out how to fix it. > > Could you please forward on to the list? I'd be most grateful. > > Thank you! > > Virginia > -----Original Message----- > From: Virginia Bowen [mailto:bowenconsulting@bowenconsulting.net] > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 2:14 AM > To: 'applied-ethology@usask.ca' > Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > My understanding is that horses picking up "stable vices" from each other is > a myth, and too often the reaction of humans is to further isolate their > horses, which will lead to more "vices" (which are really just attempts to > cope with their stressful environment). Cribbing, usually being considered > a stereotypy, is one behavior that should lead a person to look for problems > in the horse's welfare. > > I believe it's been proven that horses do NOT start cribbing due to seeing > another horse cribbing. In fact, often in situations set up to research > this, the original cribbing horse cribs less or stops due to the nearness of > conspecifics - which eases their stress. > > I also understand the act of cribbing releases endorphins, so if left to go > on for too long can become much like any addiction - and very hard to break. > > > I agree that it also has no relation to whether or not horses learn by > observation. > > Virginia > Brownwood, TX > > "Recognizing that animals have emotions is important because animal feelings > matter. Animals are sentient beings who experience the ups and downs of > daily life, and we must respect this when we interact with them. Animals > are not only the companions we live with, care for, and love, they are also > the billions of other domesticated animals who live in farms and in > slaughterhouses and provide us with food and clothing. > > ... and with this knowledge comes the enormous responsibility and obligation > to treat other beings with respect, appreciation, compassion, and love." > > Marc Bekoff, The Emotional Lives of Animals > > -----Original Message----- > From: peterhaskins [mailto:peterhaskins@bigpond.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 1:41 AM > To: ethology > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > I would think that horses cribbing must be analogous to people biting their > fingernails. > > Now we know (or it is accepted) that humans can learn through observation. > But I have yet to see ot hear of humans biting their fingernails because > they saw someone else doing it. > > Therefore my guess is that horses do not learn cribbing by observation, but > that this does nothing to prove that horses can or can't learn by > observation. > > Cheers, > > Jenny H > Coffs Australia > Subject: Re: more hard wiring From: peterhaskins Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:53:35 +1100 To: gene daniels CC: ethology Very Good! It probably describes many of us list frequenters :-[) Jenny. ----- Original Message ----- From: gene daniels http://news.yahoo.com/comics;_ylt=AkbSHEVmUgpkvVSNTstKWxIQ_b4F Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: peterhaskins Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 18:20:55 +1100 To: ethology Learen by association or by observation? I do think that you are splitting hairs here, which does nothing to further our understanding of the learning process. Jenny H If an animal hears a click and then sees food, even if the animal does not consume the food, why would that not be learning by association? The animal would previously have also learned by association that when one sees food, one is soon going to eat food. Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: peterhaskins Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 18:49:59 +1100 To: ethology Unfortunately I no longer live in sheep country so don't have any short-term likelihood of filming it. You could probably find similar behaviour if you watch a film/video of sheep going through a race. I would guess that it is a survival behaviour for an animal that moves in close flocks. Rather than heach sheep having to individuall notice the whatever, the sheep in the front notices it and takes evading action, the others simply follow. Much like drivers in heavy fast moving traffic -- if you see the driver in front suddenly swerve, you might just save yourself breaking an axle by going into the huge pot-hole the driver in front managed to see in time, if you unthinkingly swerve at th esame place. I don't think it would have anything to do with 'social release' as when the animals are simply grazing they ignore another animal jumping. Cheers, Jenny H Jay R Feierman: That's quite interesting. You should try to film this on video for demonstration. I suspect that jumping at a specific place is a "social releaser" for jumping behavior in the sheep. When each sheep gets to that place, it jumps. Subject: Re: Observational Learning From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:06:34 +0000 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" , applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Dear Jay, Thank you for clarifying this and your capitulation that bees do at least use 'observational' learning. I have never claimed that bees use imitation - this is a much more precise information transfer. If a demonstrator animal moves a lever to the left with its left paw and the observer then moves the lever to the left but with its right paw, this is not EXACTLY the same behaviour, therefore it is NOT imitation but it could be observational learning. I therefore do not agree that imitation learning is necessary for a culture to develop. The spread of potato washing by Japanese macaques was almost certainly observational learning, but unless each monkey washed the potatoes in EXACTLY the same way, this would not be imitation learning. I'm afraid I don't understand why any ethologist would suggest that observational learning was occurring in your robin example....it is simply territory defence. Chris --On 31 January 2008 15:08 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: > > Chris Sherwin: I'm getting rather confused by what we animal > behaviourists would consider to be observational learning and what you > are arguing - could you please point me in the direction of the > definition human ethologists would use. > > Jay R. Feierman: Yes, I'm confused as well. I realize that I was not > being clear as to the distinction between social learning, observation > learning and imitation learning. The Wikipedia piece I've pasted below > was helpful to me in making this distinction. I was not making a > distinction between observational learning and imitation learning. As a > result, bees engage in observational learning. They are not engaging in > imitation learning. Both are examples of social learning. I suspect it > requires the ability to engage in imitation learning for a species to > develop culture. What taxa can learn by observation as well as by > imitation? > > The other issue is that if an individual is "programmed" genetically to > react with a specific behavior in response to a particular "social > releaser" coming from another individual, is that an example of > observational learning? I don't think so because the behavior which is > released is a structurally defined coordinated motor pattern. There was > really nothing the individual learned. The structurally defined > coordinated motor pattern was released upon exposure to a specific social > releaser because the individual's ancestors who so responded left more > descendents. When a male robin in a territory attacks another male robin > or even a stick with red feathers on it that are in the male robin's > territory, I doubt that people would consider this to be observational > learning, even though the behavior of the territory holding robin was > modified by seeing the intruding robin or the model of red feathers on a > stick. > > To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > > Observational learning > > > > > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > > Jump to: navigation, search > For other uses, see Social learning. > > Observational learning (also known as: vicarious learning or social > learning or modeling) is learning that occurs as a function of observing, > retaining and, in the case of imitation learning, replicating novel > behavior executed by others. It is most associated with the work of > psychologist Albert Bandura, who implemented some of the seminal studies > in the area and initiated social learning theory. It involves the process > of learning to copy or model the action of another through observing > another doing it. Further research has been used to show a connection > between observational learning and both classical and operant > conditioning. [1] > > Many mistake observational learning with imitation. The two terms are > different in the sense that observational learning leads to a change in > behavior due to observing a model. This does not mean that the behavior > exhibited by the model is duplicated. It could mean that the observer > would do the opposite of the model behavior because he or she has learned > the consequence of that particular behavior. Consider the case of > learning what NOT to do. In such a case, there is observational learning > without imitation. > > Although observational learning can take place at any stage in life, it > is thought to be particularly important during childhood, particularly as > authority becomes important. The best role models are those a year or two > older for observational learning. Because of this, social learning theory > has influenced debates on the effect of television violence and parental > role models. Bandura's Bobo doll experiment is widely cited in psychology > as a demonstration of observational learning and demonstrated that > children are more likely to engage in violent play with a life size > rebounding doll after watching an adult do the same. However, it may be > that children will only reproduce a model's behavior if it has been > reinforced. This may be the problem with television because it was found, > by Otto Larson and his coworkers (1968), that 56% of the time children's > television characters achieve their goals through violent acts. > > Observational learning allows for learning without any change in behavior > and has therefore been used as an argument against strict behaviorism > which argued that behavior change must occur for new behaviors to be > acquired. Bandura noted that "social imitation may hasten or short-cut > the acquisition of new behaviors without the necessity of reinforcing > successive approximations as suggested by Skinner (1953)."[2] > > It is possible to treat observational learning as merely a variation of > operant training. According to this view, first proposed by Neal Miller > and John Dollard, the changes in an observer's behavior are due to the > consequences of the observer's behavior, not those of the model. "[3]" > > As an interesting aside, there are a number of variables which have > confounded the study of observational learning in animals. One of these > is the Venus Effect in which animals are sexual stimulated by the model > and this interferes with the ability to observe behavior thereby limiting > the ability to make associations based on the behavior of the model. (See > Warden and Jackson 1935) ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: Jay re bees From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:16:28 +0000 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay, If a chimpanzee or human was to point behind a rock and an observing chimp or human moved to that rock and found food hidden behind it, would you say that this is a 'social releasing stimulus' or observational learning? How do you decide which is which? Chris --On 31 January 2008 18:52 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: > > > Kayce Cover: The bee is transmitting four or five dimensions of > information, all of it variable. Receiving bees must respond variably > according to the information transmitted (or their perception of it). The > primary mode of reception is observational. It is more than a releasing > signal. Complex information is received by observers, decoded and then > used to map their own expeditions. Pollen collection is the riskiest job > anyway and left to the most experienced bees. > > Jay R. Feierman: First, I'm not an expert on bees but find the topic > interesting. You say that the bees must respond variably according to the > information transmitted. The waggle dance itself may be the social > releasing stimulus for foraging behavior in the perceiving bee. The > information embedded in the waggle dance modifies the perceiving bees' > orientation (direction) and timing of flight. Animals can modify their > coordinated motor patterns in orientation (direction) and timing by > ontogenetically acquired information from their environment. It seems > that for each variation in the waggle dance's orientation (direction) and > timing, there is a fixed variation corresponding to it that will occur in > the ensuing behavior of the perceiving bee. > > > > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: How do you unsubscribe from the applied ethology list? From: Michalchik@aol.com Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 07:47:14 -0500 (EST) To: peterhaskins@bigpond.com, applied-ethology@usask.ca Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. Subject: Re: Joining applied ethology From: joseph stookey Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 09:08:29 -0600 To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca, human-ethology@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the applied-ethology network you must send a command message to: applied-ethology-request@usask.ca In the body of the message on the first line (not the subject header) you must type the command: subscribe, the name of the list server and your e-mail address. The command is not case sensitive and as an example, for myself I would type the command as follows: subscribe applied-ethology joseph.stookey@usask.ca To unsubscribe you would send another message to: applied-ethology-request@usask.ca In the body of the message on the first line (not the subject header) you must type a command to unsubscribe, the list server and your e-mail address. For example for myself I would type the command as follows: unsubscribe applied-ethology joseph.stookey@usask.ca If you are having trouble you can always send a message to me and I can subscribe or unsubscribe your name. cheers, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Professor of Applied Ethology Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: Development of behaviour From: ismail thoya Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 07:19:38 -0800 (PST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca If Darwins theory of evolution stands true then a really interesting phenomenon has taken place over the millions of years there has been life on earth.Cause for certain the behaviours we term instinctive and observed in the current animal populations must have developed with time.The interesting question is how? Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Subject: Re: Jay re bees From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 08:20:37 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Chris Sherwin: If a chimpanzee or human was to point behind a rock and an observing chimp or human moved to that rock and found food hidden behind it, would you say that this is a 'social releasing stimulus' or observational learning? How do you decide which is which? Jay R. Feierman: That's an interesting question. I'm not sure of the answer but here are some thought on the subject. At least in humans there is a coordinated motor pattern to fix one's gaze where another individual is gazing and pointing. It is actually difficult not to do this. If you are with someone and they look someplace with their eyes and point there, it is almost irresistible not to look. If the gazing and pointing is accompanied by some sort of distress call or a scream and accompanied by a facial affect of fear, it is almost impossible not to look where the other person is pointing and gazing. Obviously, in our evolutionary history, individuals who did not look where someone else was gazing, pointing, screaming with a fearful look on their face did not live long or have many offspring. I believe but am not sure that the same phenomenon occurs in chimpanzees. I'm sure that's known. I just am not familiar enough with the literature. We know that humans point all the time to get humans to look where we are pointing. There is probably a transition from voluntary looking to looking as the result of a coordinated motor pattern released by the combination of releasing stimuli in the point, gaze, vocalization, and fearful affect on the face. If a human just points at something without looking and with no vocalization and with a neutral affect on their face, the only reason to look would be curiosity. There would not be a compulsion to look. The humans expressive behavior (affect) may contain the essential releasing stimulus which turns voluntary looking to an almost involuntary coordinated motor pattern. In this way, it is something like the waggle dance of the bees because the direction of where to look is encoded in the behavior of the person pointing. I believe that dogs can be trained to look where their handler points with his or her hand. However, is that not trained behavior? There have also been a number of recent articles, which have been posted to the Yahoo human ethology group, that some species of monkeys are able to pick up gaze cues in human eyes. See below. I'm going to cc this to the Yahoo Human Ethology group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ because there is joint interest in this question. Animal Behaviour Article in Press, Corrected Proof Gaze following in monkeys is modulated by observed facial expressions Brigitte M.A. Goossens*, Corresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author, Marusha Dekleva*, Simon M. Reader*, Elisabeth H.M. Sterck*, ? and Johan J. Bolhuis* ?Ethology Research, Biomedical Primate Research Center, Rijswijk, The Netherlands *Behavioural Biology and Helmholtz Institute, Utrecht University, The Netherlands Received 7 July 2007; revised 1 September 2007; accepted 25 October 2007. MS. number: 9444. Available online 7 January 2008. Gaze following and the ability to understand that another individual sees something different from oneself are widely considered important components of animal social cognition. Recent studies suggest that gaze following is taxonomically widespread, yet for many species there is no evidence that gaze following is employed in a flexible manner and is more than a simple so-called ?orienting reflex?. Here, we measured the effect of social facial expressions, mimicking responses to social events, on gaze following in longtailed macaques, Macaca fascicularis, using a human demonstrator. Gaze-shifts accompanied by a socially meaningful facial expression (the Bare Teeth display) elicited stronger gaze-following responses than neutral gaze-shifts. Subjects also ?check-looked?, that is, looked back and forth between the experimenter's face and their gaze direction, which has been proposed to indicate that a subject understands that another individual is looking at a specific stimulus. Monkeys' gaze following is thus modulated by the facial emotional expressions of the demonstrator, providing evidence that their gaze following is more flexible than was previously thought. This modulation may be due to a specific arousal- or attention-based mechanism or may be based on the subject understanding that the demonstrator is attending to something the subject cannot see. Keywords: check-look; facial expressions; gaze following; longtailed macaques; Macaca fascicularis; social cognition Corresponding Author Contact InformationCorrespondence: Brigitte M. A. Goossens, Behavioural Biology, Utrecht University, P.O. Box 80.086, 3508 TB Utrecht, The Netherlands. Subject: Re: Development of behaviour From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:24:01 +0000 To: ismail thoya , applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Ismail ...genetic drift, spontaneous mutation...exactly the same way that changes in morphology, physiology, etc. occur. (except in cases where we have artificially selected animals for particular behavioural characteristics) Chris --On 01 February 2008 07:19 -0800 ismail thoya wrote: > > If Darwins theory of evolution stands true then a really interesting > phenomenon has taken place over the millions of years there has been life > on earth.Cause for certain the behaviours we term instinctive and > observed in the current animal populations must have developed with > time.The interesting question is how? > > > > __________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: Observational Learning From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 08:30:00 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Chris Sherwin: I'm afraid I don't understand why any ethologist would suggest that observational learning was occurring in your robin example....it is simply territory defense. Jay R. Feierman: I agree. I only used it as an example of behavior of one individual (intruding robin) that "released" behavior in another robin (territory holding robin) that should not be considered observational learning, as the behavior is an instinctive coordinated motor pattern released by the color red on an individual or even a red painted model of a certain size within a male robin's territory. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Observational Learning From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:34:58 +0000 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com However, territory defence by birds can be considerably more complex than that. Some birds will modify the intensity of their defence songs according to who the intruder is and where the intrusion occurs. If the intruder is a neighbour in a usual place on the territory boundary, the defender sings far less vigorously (presumably to conserve energy and time) than if the intruder is unfamiliar , or in an unexpected place. A little more sophisticated than simply singing at a painted model.... --On 01 February 2008 08:30 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: > > Chris Sherwin: I'm afraid I don't understand why any ethologist would > suggest that observational learning was occurring in your robin > example....it is simply territory defense. > > Jay R. Feierman: I agree. I only used it as an example of behavior of one > individual (intruding robin) that "released" behavior in another robin > (territory holding robin) that should not be considered observational > learning, as the behavior is an instinctive coordinated motor pattern > released by the color red on an individual or even a red painted model of > a certain size within a male robin's territory. > > To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: Jay re bees From: cijohn Verizon Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 10:35:44 -0500 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com I’m sorry if I’m posting this to too many lists --- I’m interested in this statement: At least in humans there is a coordinated motor pattern to fix one's gaze where another individual is gazing and pointing. It is actually difficult not to do this. If you are with someone and they look someplace with their eyes and point there, it is almost irresistible not to look Do we know whether autistic children are specifically missing this motor pattern? Or do they perhaps have the motor pattern but find it uncomfortable to use? Thanks. Catherine J On 2/1/08 10:20 AM, "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: Chris Sherwin: If a chimpanzee or human was to point behind a rock and an observing chimp or human moved to that rock and found food hidden behind it, would you say that this is a 'social releasing stimulus' or observational learning? How do you decide which is which? Jay R. Feierman: That's an interesting question. I'm not sure of the answer but here are some thought on the subject. At least in humans there is a coordinated motor pattern to fix one's gaze where another individual is gazing and pointing. It is actually difficult not to do this. If you are with someone and they look someplace with their eyes and point there, it is almost irresistible not to look. If the gazing and pointing is accompanied by some sort of distress call or a scream and accompanied by a facial affect of fear, it is almost impossible not to look where the other person is pointing and gazing. Obviously, in our evolutionary history, individuals who did not look where someone else was gazing, pointing, screaming with a fearful look on their face did not live long or have many offspring. I believe but am not sure that the same phenomenon occurs in chimpanzees. I'm sure that's known. I just am not familiar enough with the literature. We know that humans point all the time to get humans to look where we are pointing. There is probably a transition from voluntary looking to looking as the result of a coordinated motor pattern released by the combination of releasing stimuli in the point, gaze, vocalization, and fearful affect on the face. If a human just points at something without looking and with no vocalization and with a neutral affect on their face, the only reason to look would be curiosity. There would not be a compulsion to look. The humans expressive behavior (affect) may contain the essential releasing stimulus which turns voluntary looking to an almost involuntary coordinated motor pattern. In this way, it is something like the waggle dance of the bees because the direction of where to look is encoded in the behavior of the person pointing. I believe that dogs can be trained to look where their handler points with his or her hand. However, is that not trained behavior? There have also been a number of recent articles, which have been posted to the Yahoo human ethology group, that some species of monkeys are able to pick up gaze cues in human eyes. See below. I'm going to cc this to the Yahoo Human Ethology group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ because there is joint interest in this question. Animal Behaviour Article in Press, Corrected Proof Gaze following in monkeys is modulated by observed facial expressions Brigitte M.A. Goossens* , , , Marusha Dekleva* , Simon M. Reader* , Elisabeth H.M. Sterck* , ? and Johan J. Bolhuis* ?Ethology Research, Biomedical Primate Research Center, Rijswijk, The Netherlands *Behavioural Biology and Helmholtz Institute, Utrecht University, The Netherlands Received 7 July 2007; revised 1 September 2007; accepted 25 October 2007. MS. number: 9444. Available online 7 January 2008. Gaze following and the ability to understand that another individual sees something different from oneself are widely considered important components of animal social cognition. Recent studies suggest that gaze following is taxonomically widespread, yet for many species there is no evidence that gaze following is employed in a flexible manner and is more than a simple so-called ?orienting reflex?. Here, we measured the effect of social facial expressions, mimicking responses to social events, on gaze following in longtailed macaques, Macaca fascicularis, using a human demonstrator. Gaze-shifts accompanied by a socially meaningful facial expression (the Bare Teeth display) elicited stronger gaze-following responses than neutral gaze-shifts. Subjects also ?check-looked?, that is, looked back and forth between the experimenter's face and their gaze direction, which has been proposed to indicate that a subject understands that another individual is looking at a specific stimulus. Monkeys' gaze following is thus modulated by the facial emotional expressions of the demonstrator, providing evidence that their gaze following is more flexible than was previously thought. This modulation may be due to a specific arousal- or attention-based mechanism or may be based on the subject understanding that the demonstrator is attending to something the subject cannot see. Keywords: check-look; facial expressions; gaze following; longtailed macaques; Macaca fascicularis; social cognition Correspondence: Brigitte M. A. Goossens, Behavioural Biology, Utrecht University, P.O. Box 80.086, 3508 TB Utrecht, The Netherlands. Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 08:42:04 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Jenny H: I don't think it would have anything to do with 'social release' as when the animals [sheep] are simply grazing they ignore another animal jumping. Jay R. Feierman: Coordinated motor patterns are structurally definable and mood dependent, which means that being in a specific mood lowers the threshold for their execution. Therefore, when sheep are grazing they may be in the wrong mood to jump in a follow-the-leader manner. However, when they are running together, that may put them in the mood to do this. For a video demonstratin of this phenomenon see http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=432374478355098712&q=%22sheep+jumping%22&total=22&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7 To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Jumping when it counts in sheep From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 08:47:35 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Here is a video of a number of sheep all coming out of a barn where there appears to be a real little ledge over which they all have to jump. It is easy to see that when in a flock running, an individual in the middle of the flock can not see what needs to be jumped over. It therefore makes sense to just jump where others jump. That explains the "adaptiveness" or survival value of the behavior even when for whatever reason a single sheep in a flock jumps perhaps in response to a shadow on the ground and then they all do the same thing even when there is nothing to really jump over. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-64808171314968584&q=%22sheep+jumping%22&total=22&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4 Subject: Re: Jumping when it counts in sheep From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:56:46 +0000 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Jay, I don't think you should so easily dismiss that the sheep in the middle of the flock could not see the ledge...they were not tightly packed, and the sheep's eye is rather different to ours in that the orientation of the pupil means it has greater acuity for objects on the ground (useful for grazing) and better distinction for darker shades (shadows perhaps). It might also be worth thinking this could be an anti-predator behaviour. Many prey animals 'pronk', i.e. springing into the air. It is thought this is done to show a predator how strong and virile the individual is and therefore the predator should choose to chase someone else. These sheep were emerging into an area of humans (predators) and so might have been responding to the same stimulus, i.e. a potential predator. Chris --On 01 February 2008 08:47 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: > > Here is a video of a number of sheep all coming out of a barn where there > appears to be a real little ledge over which they all have to jump. It is > easy to see that when in a flock running, an individual in the middle of > the flock can not see what needs to be jumped over. It therefore makes > sense to just jump where others jump. That explains the "adaptiveness" or > survival value of the behavior even when for whatever reason a single > sheep in a flock jumps perhaps in response to a shadow on the ground and > then they all do the same thing even when there is nothing to really jump > over. > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-64808171314968584&q=%22sheep+jum > ping%22&total=22&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4 ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: aggression and fear From: "Hendriksen, H." Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 18:15:02 +0100 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay R. Feierman: That's interesting. I'm not familiar with this literature. I suspect it depends a lot on what the stressor is, as a particular animal in a species might find one thing stressful and not another, which another individual in the same species then finds stressful. By analogy some humans find talking in front of large groups stressful and some don't. Other humans find being high off the ground stressful and others don't. Maybe the issue is how an individual reacts in whatever circumstance makes the individual feel stressed. That would apply across species. Erik Hendriksen: The coping style of an animal is not depending on the stressor. Animals with different coping styles react with a differently even when stress parameters (hart rate, corticosteroids, CRF, norepinefrin) are changed in comparable way’s. However it has been reported that a certain coping style goes with a typical different endocrinological response. So when a number of animals (lets say rats) from a population are presented with a stressful challenge (lets say a metal shock-probe in there cage) one can make a distinction in the way they react. Some will actively burry the thing other will sit stil in the corner en avoid it all together. This has nothing to doe with their pain threshold or sensitivity but is characteristic for the strategy the animal will follow in stressful situations. Jay R. Feierman: Considering hawks proactive and doves reactive is interesting, given that hawks are predators and doves are prey. Given that humans are omnivores, perhaps that is why some of us are more hawk-like and others of us are more dove-like. Erik Hendriksen: I must apologize for expressing myself not clear. The hawks en doves are not real hawks and doves. Is an metaphor used to describe individuals of the same species with a different coping style. Hawks are proactive, bur not very flexible Doves are reactive but more flexible. the success of the hawk or dive type animal in a population is depending on the environment. Erik Hendriksen: Now I'm really curious: Do you think fear can elicit aggression (in non-human animals)? Jay R. Feierman: In the way I conceptualize things being in a fearful mood would inhibit aggressive behaviors and would lower the threshold for the escape, freeze, or submissive behaviors. When an individual (any species) is confronted with a potential adversary, there is a quick assessment of the adversary's aggressive capabilities. If the assessment is that one is stronger or more capable of winning an agonistic encounter with an adversary, one would not be in a fearful mood. Prior to the assessment, one could be in some sort of a mixed mood with two moods (anger and fear) rapidly alternating. I don't think fear per se lowers the threshold for aggressive behavior in any vertebrate. Erik Hendriksen: I thank you for your clear explanation. I must admit not agreeing with you on this but I can see your point in the paradox between fear and aggression. However, I do think fear can lower the threshold for aggressive behavior. When animals are confronted with an overwhelming threat ( by predator or conspecific) their options to survive might be to fly or if that is not possible fight (aggression) a way out before being killed or seriously injured. This does not mean the animal was not fearful. It will fly after this aggressive encounter. You suggested the option of showing submissive behaviour, This is not an option in case of a predator or in case there is no “trustworthy” social bond between the animals. when a new dog is placed in a existing group of African wild dog in most causes the new dog will be attacked and killed. Submission in that case will not save the new (alien) animal. Jay R. Feierman: I enjoy our dialog, as we both have different data bases from which we draw knowledge. As moderator of the Yahoo Human Ethology group, I'm trying to get more cross dialog between non-human animal ethologists, applied ethologists, and human ethologists. Erik Hendriksen: I thank you very much for the stimulating exchange of thoughts. Science will benefit probably the most if we dare to cross the lines of different disciplines. -------------------------------------------------------------- H. Hendriksen Tel: +31 (0)30 2537382 e-mail: H.hendriksen@.uu.nl Psychopharmacology Department Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences University of Utrecht F.A.C. Wentgebouw Sorbonnelaan 16 3584 CA Utrecht The Netherlands ------------------------------------------------------------- Hondenschool ABOVO Utrecht Subject: Observational Learning / following behavior (horses) From: cynthia smith Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 13:05:17 -0500 To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca, "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" , applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Joe and all, Interesting in the earlier post about the wild horses that crossed into town only one ever learned how to open the gate to eat grass even though the rest of the herd could observe this horse in action for a long period of time I know that I trail ride from time to time and invariably if there is a wooden bridge or water crossing or something that the lead horse balks at we all stand around and watch (including the horses) and take turns at the obstacle until one of us has luck at getting across it. Once the first horse crosses the obstacle the rest of our trail riding gang (usually about 5 riders and horses) usually follows quietly without a problem. I am working with a horse now in an indoor arena that is very good about walking over poles, walking on plastic tarps, etc. If I have a friend come out with a young horse that is balking and nervous at the poles and tarps I just say "watch us go through first and then follow behind us." Of course the handler of the young horse has to stay calm and patient but the young horse will usually catch on pretty fast with a "helper" horse to buddy up with. Your good horse trainers have for years used the steady eddy horse (usually older) to pony the young horses with on trail. So in response to your comments Joe certainly horses are excellent at following one another and they usually engage in observing one another before they follow. Sounds like some good studies need to be designed to look at the myriad of variables that can be present when horses are learning (presence of another horse, age and dominance status of that horse, age of horse being tested, dominance status of the horse, temperaments of the horses in the study, breed differences, etc.) If a handler/rider/trainer is involved in the study then a whole new set of variables may be present.. (the handler's temperament....some handlers are calm, patient, some are fearful, aggressive, male or female, physical size, age, past horse handling experience, etc. Environmental variables on test day might need to be considered as well (temperature, wind, rain, snow..). Anyone that has trained a sensitive breed like the thoroughbreds knows that some horses respond differently from one day to the next just based on the human's mood or a windy versus a calm test day! Cynthia Smith, M.S. Applied Ethology Technical Information Specialist USDA/Animal Welfare Information Center www.nal.usda.gov/awic Tel 306-966-7154 > > Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: Re: aggression and fear From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:28:51 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay R. Feierman: In the way I conceptualize things, being in a fearful mood would inhibit aggressive behaviors and would lower the threshold for the escape, freeze, or submissive behaviors. When an individual (any species) is confronted with a potential adversary, there is a quick assessment of the adversary's aggressive capabilities. If the assessment is that one is stronger or more capable of winning an agonistic encounter with an adversary, one would not be in a fearful mood. Prior to the assessment, one could be in some sort of a mixed mood with two moods (anger and fear) rapidly alternating. I don't think fear per se lowers the threshold for aggressive behavior in any vertebrate. Erik Hendriksen: I thank you for your clear explanation. I must admit not agreeing with you on this but I can see your point in the paradox between fear and aggression. However, I do think fear can lower the threshold for aggressive behavior. When animals are confronted with an overwhelming threat ( by predator or conspecific) their options to survive might be to fly or if that is not possible fight (aggression) a way out before being killed or seriously injured. This does not mean the animal was not fearful. It will fly after this aggressive encounter. You suggested the option of showing submissive behaviour, This is not an option in case of a predator or in case there is no “trustworthy” social bond between the animals. when a new dog is placed in a existing group of African wild dog in most causes the new dog will be attacked and killed. Submission in that case will not save the new (alien) animal. Jay R. Feierman: I agree with you. I had not considered a prey species being attacked by a predator. I presume that most species only behave submissively when they are confronted with aggression by an overwhelmingly powerful conspecific where escape is not possible. If a human were being attacked by a grizzly bear, I don't think a human would behave submissively, hoping that the submissive behavior would inhibit aggression in the bear. Therefore, my remarks about the relationship between fear and aggression would only apply to conspecific interactions. It is therefore possible that when individuals interact with dogs, which are of course a different species, that one can see so called fear-aggression. However, it is also very obvious that when a human owner is angry at his or her pet dog, the dog behaves submissively. Even when a human owner spanks a dog (apart from whether such behavior is ever warranted), the dog still behaves submissively. That being said, there are vast differences in the response of dogs of different breeds in terms of them responding with submission or aggression to agonism from a human. I've had three Lhasa Apso dogs and have never seen any of them actually behave submissively when scolded. My current one, who is 16 years old, just growls and shows his canines at me when I scold him for something. I've been told that I'm his human rather than he's my dog. I also wonder about the motivation or mood of a predator when it attacks a prey species. Is that aggression or anger or something else? I suspect it is something else? What is it? Could the motivation or mood just be hunger? I then think of a human hunter sitting near a deer trail with a high powered rifle with a telescopic sight. Most likely the hunter is in a neutral mood. When the hunter sees a deer, the hunter does not feel angry at all. The hunter may feel some excitement and then very methodologically picks up the rifle, puts the cross hairs on the deer and pulls the trigger. Of course the modern hunter is not hungry when he is doing this, as might a lion be on the east African plains when it runs after and then pounces on an ungulate. I've watched that scenario unfold a few times and was not impressed that the behavior of the lion looked like aggression, as when two males of a carnivorous species fight with one another. Maybe it is just that the ungulate does not fight back when caught? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Jay re bees From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:42:48 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Catherine, I am not an expert on human autism. However, Leif Ekblad from Sweden on the Human Ethology list is. Autistic children often do not naturally point in trying to get a non-autistic person to look at something. However, they can be taught to point. There is both human and monkey data which says that the facial affect while both pointing and gazing influences whether someone looks at what someone else gazes or points to. Autistic children have problems decoding facial affects, as they seem to lack a template for facial affects. If you are a member of the Human Ethology Group and post the question there, I'm sure that Leif will answer it. See http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ . I've been trying to interest human ethologists in human autism. Niko Tinbergen, an animal ethologist, was interested in it and studied autistic children ethologically. He thought that their primary motivation was fear. His 1973 Nobel address was partly on autism. I'm working on the idea that the genetic determinant of autism is the genetic determinant to be solitary, rather than social. I have not followed that idea to its conclusion or written it up yet. Regards, Jay R. Feierman ----- Original Message ----- From: cijohn Verizon To: Jay R. Feierman ; applied-ethology@usask.ca Cc: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:35 AM Subject: Re: Jay re bees I’m sorry if I’m posting this to too many lists --- I’m interested in this statement: At least in humans there is a coordinated motor pattern to fix one's gaze where another individual is gazing and pointing. It is actually difficult not to do this. If you are with someone and they look someplace with their eyes and point there, it is almost irresistible not to look Do we know whether autistic children are specifically missing this motor pattern? Or do they perhaps have the motor pattern but find it uncomfortable to use? Thanks. Catherine J On 2/1/08 10:20 AM, "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: Chris Sherwin: If a chimpanzee or human was to point behind a rock and an observing chimp or human moved to that rock and found food hidden behind it, would you say that this is a 'social releasing stimulus' or observational learning? How do you decide which is which? Jay R. Feierman: That's an interesting question. I'm not sure of the answer but here are some thought on the subject. At least in humans there is a coordinated motor pattern to fix one's gaze where another individual is gazing and pointing. It is actually difficult not to do this. If you are with someone and they look someplace with their eyes and point there, it is almost irresistible not to look. If the gazing and pointing is accompanied by some sort of distress call or a scream and accompanied by a facial affect of fear, it is almost impossible not to look where the other person is pointing and gazing. Obviously, in our evolutionary history, individuals who did not look where someone else was gazing, pointing, screaming with a fearful look on their face did not live long or have many offspring. I believe but am not sure that the same phenomenon occurs in chimpanzees. I'm sure that's known. I just am not familiar enough with the literature. We know that humans point all the time to get humans to look where we are pointing. There is probably a transition from voluntary looking to looking as the result of a coordinated motor pattern released by the combination of releasing stimuli in the point, gaze, vocalization, and fearful affect on the face. If a human just points at something without looking and with no vocalization and with a neutral affect on their face, the only reason to look would be curiosity. There would not be a compulsion to look. The humans expressive behavior (affect) may contain the essential releasing stimulus which turns voluntary looking to an almost involuntary coordinated motor pattern. In this way, it is something like the waggle dance of the bees because the direction of where to look is encoded in the behavior of the person pointing. I believe that dogs can be trained to look where their handler points with his or her hand. However, is that not trained behavior? There have also been a number of recent articles, which have been posted to the Yahoo human ethology group, that some species of monkeys are able to pick up gaze cues in human eyes. See below. I'm going to cc this to the Yahoo Human Ethology group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ because there is joint interest in this question. Animal Behaviour Article in Press, Corrected Proof Gaze following in monkeys is modulated by observed facial expressions Brigitte M.A. Goossens* , , , Marusha Dekleva* , Simon M. Reader* , Elisabeth H.M. Sterck* , ? and Johan J. Bolhuis* ?Ethology Research, Biomedical Primate Research Center, Rijswijk, The Netherlands *Behavioural Biology and Helmholtz Institute, Utrecht University, The Netherlands Received 7 July 2007; revised 1 September 2007; accepted 25 October 2007. MS. number: 9444. Available online 7 January 2008. Gaze following and the ability to understand that another individual sees something different from oneself are widely considered important components of animal social cognition. Recent studies suggest that gaze following is taxonomically widespread, yet for many species there is no evidence that gaze following is employed in a flexible manner and is more than a simple so-called ?orienting reflex?. Here, we measured the effect of social facial expressions, mimicking responses to social events, on gaze following in longtailed macaques, Macaca fascicularis, using a human demonstrator. Gaze-shifts accompanied by a socially meaningful facial expression (the Bare Teeth display) elicited stronger gaze-following responses than neutral gaze-shifts. Subjects also ?check-looked?, that is, looked back and forth between the experimenter's face and their gaze direction, which has been proposed to indicate that a subject understands that another individual is looking at a specific stimulus. Monkeys' gaze following is thus modulated by the facial emotional expressions of the demonstrator, providing evidence that their gaze following is more flexible than was previously thought. This modulation may be due to a specific arousal- or attention-based mechanism or may be based on the subject understanding that the demonstrator is attending to something the subject cannot see. Keywords: check-look; facial expressions; gaze following; longtailed macaques; Macaca fascicularis; social cognition Correspondence: Brigitte M. A. Goossens, Behavioural Biology, Utrecht University, P.O. Box 80.086, 3508 TB Utrecht, The Netherlands. Subject: Re: Observational Learning From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:57:26 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Chris Sherwin: However, territory defence by birds can be considerably more complex than that. Some birds will modify the intensity of their defence songs in according to who the intruder is and where the intrusion occurs. If the intruder is a neighbour in a usual place on the territory boundary, the defender sings far less vigorously (presumably to conserve energy and time) than if the intruder is unfamiliar , or in an unexpected place. A little more sophisticated than simply singing at a painted model.... Jay R. Feierman: My understanding is that a male robin in a territory will attack another male robin who comes into his territory. There have been ethological experiments in which the male robin will also attack a stick upon which a number of red painted feathers have been attached has also been attacked when it was brought into a male robin's territory. I was not talking about singing at a painted model. I tried to find a video of this male robin attack something red behavior in his territory on the web but could not. The closest I found is a male robin attacking a "loon suncatcher," whatever that means. See http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8465646756274013902&q=robin+attack+territory&total=3&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 . It appears to be a piece of colored glass with a loon image on it. I can't see if there is any red in the glass. The male robin appears to be attacking the loon picture in the glass. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 12:06:24 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca John, Very interesting and informative posting re differences in various dog breeds re their various senses. Thanks. Yes, you are very welcome at the Human Ethology Yahoo group. The group is very multi-disciplinary. Just go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ . Regards, Jay R Feierman ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Burchard" To: "Jay R. Feierman" ; "Sabine Goubau" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:28 AM Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > Jay R. Feierman wrote: > >> A dog's world is a world of odors and smell, as smell is a much more >> important sense to a dog than it is to a human. When I take one of my >> dogs out at night for a walk, I notice that he constantly has his >> nose to the ground, as though he is constantly sniffing his way >> around our property. He is almost oblivious to the visual world at >> night. Typically, imitation learning means learning by visual >> observation. However, there is also imitation learning by auditory >> stimuli. I can speak Spanish in a conversational way but my >> vocabulary is poor and often my pronunciation is poor. When someone >> who is a native Spanish speaker talks to me in Spanish, they often >> repeat a word I just said in Spanish. When they do that, I then >> repeat the word back and smile to acknowledge their help in my >> learning pronunciation or sometimes grammar by imitation learning. >> >> I have noticed that when my grandchildren watch Animal Planet on TV >> that one of our dogs, who is on the bed with them, is totally >> oblivious to the various dogs that are on the screen. Occasionally, >> when one of the dogs on the TV barks, the dog will look up at the TV. >> I also noted that this same dog once reacted to the same way when in >> a movie, a young woman screamed. Yet, other than these sounds, the >> dog is oblivious to the visual aspects of what's on the TV. >> >> We also know that dogs are almost oblivious to their reflections in >> the mirror. The question is not if they recognize themselves, as the >> higher apes can do when looking in the mirror. They don't react to >> the dog image in the mirror at all, even if they were to perceive it >> as another dog. Yet, when I go to my daughter's house where she has >> two dogs, my dog gives me the 3rd degree in terms of a total smell >> evaluation when I return home from her house. > > There are very great differences among different dog types in the importance (or > lack thereof) they attach to visual cues. While it is probably true that for > dogs (like most non-primate mammals) olfaction is normally the most important > sensory modality, there are dog breeds or types with excellent vision - for > instance, those which hunt primarily by sight (the "sighthounds"). The Salukis > with which I live, and with which I hunt regularly, are able to follow a fleeing > hare through brush and other obstacles at speeds close to 40 mph. Olfaction > plays little or no role in that pursuit, and hearing at best a secondary role, > while the primary orientation is clearly visual. If they lose sight of their > quarry, and cannot re-locate it quickly by sound or scent, they typically give > up the pursuit. > > These dogs show a lively interest in TV or video, if it shows other dogs > (especially in pursuit of prey or lures) or prey animals. At least some of them > also react to their image in a mirror. The most typical response is to approach > the mirror, and then try to look behind it (they do this with a TV set too, > especially if dogs are in the picture). > > Salukis (some of them anyway, there are of course individual differences, > perhaps especially in show stock no longer selected for hunting ability) seem to > have excellent vision. They often detect and respond appropriately to the > appearance of prey animals, at distances which force me to use binoculars to see > what they are reacting to. It's not uncommon for them to identify apparently > motionless quarry at distances of many hundreds of yards. In some of those > cases we can, indeed, be sure they are not detecting movement of the quarry - > namely, when it turns out to be a lifelike bronze statue! > > Wolves also have, AFAIK, excellent vision. Their social interactions involve, > inter alia, an extensive, highly differentiated and subtle repertoire of visual > signals. Their hunting behavior also involves, once the prey has been located, > vision as a prominent if not the primary sensory modality. > > There are, of course, many dog breeds whose visual abilities are greatly > inferior to those of sighthounds (or of wolves), and some whose reliance on > olfaction is so extreme one might be forgiven for thinking they hardly use their > eyes at all. Some of the hounds bred for scent trailing (and during their > education actively discouraged from chasing by sight) are good examples of this > other end of the scale. > >> Therefore, based on the above, it would seem quite difficult to get a >> dog to modify his behavior through learning by just observing a >> human. To rule out that there were not other cues involved, I would >> want the learning to occur just by a video with no sound of a human >> doing something. My sense is that the dog would totally ignore the >> video like a dog ignores the TV. Yet, I am aware that a dog can pick >> up body language and pointing cues from a human. I suspect it does >> that by association learning but I don't know the literature on this. >> I'm sure it's been studied by the Budapest dog group. > > It matters greatly, also, just what behavior is being copied. For example, > in social canids, social facilitation - including copying the behaviors of > others - is very much a normal part of hunting and/or food-finding activities. > It matters, also, whether the behavior being copied is already part of an > animal's inventory, or is something new for that individual - and then, whether > or not it is something novel, not part of any individual's normal repertoire. > > Consider the case of a litter of 9 Saluki puppies. When they were, I suppose, > around five weeks old, we decided to teach them to "sit" for a small food > reward. It took only a couple of minutes to teach one puppy to "sit." The > others, observing their colleague getting food by the simple expedient of > applying hindquarters to the substrate, immediately began "sitting holes in the > floor" in the determined (and of course successful ) attempt to manipulate > the behavior of their human owner (oops, I mean servant ) to their own > advantage. > > A bit of reflection on what might have been going on there will, I think, reveal > the dangers of overly simplistic thinking in interpreting such observations . > >> If you are interested in the application of Ethology to human >> behavior, you could join the Human Ethology Yahoo group >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/, which is >> sponsored by the International Society for Human Ethology >> http://www.ishe.org/ or see their upcoming '08 conference web page >> http://www.ishe08.org/ . By joining this group I'm trying to get more >> cross talk between the two groups, as each has something to offer the >> other. > > Hm, would I be welcome there as well? > > John > -- > John E. Burchard, Ph.D. > Tepe Gawra Salukis > saluqi@ix.netcom.com > http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ > > Subject: re: pointing behavior From: Audrey Schwartz Rivers Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 13:40:05 -0600 To: ethology network Check out this research (posted previously): http://etologia.aitia.ai/main.php?folderID=945 They have done considerable research on gaze and pointing gesture in relation to dogs, humans, wolves and felines. In addition, they have references to other research regarding gaze and pointing gesture research with primates -- human and nonhuman. Audrey Schwartz Rivers, MS Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: peterhaskins Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 09:09:14 +1100 To: ethology >> Jay R. Feierman: Coordinated motor patterns are structurally definable and mood dependent, which means that being in a specific mood lowers the threshold for their execution. Therefore, when sheep are grazing they may be in the wrong mood to jump in a follow-the-leader manner. However, when they are running together, that may put them in the mood to do this. For a video demonstratin of this phenomenon see http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=432374478355098712&q=%22sheep+jumping%22&total=22&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7 Interesting video, but it doesn't look to me to be the same behaviour I was describing. In the video it seems to ressemble stotting in antelope. But what I have seen is one particular sheep jumping to avoid something . Whateverit was avoiding might be no longer present but the sheep directly behind will jump at the same place. If you watch them for a while, as theline of sheep progresses, while the jump stays at the same place, it will become lower until after some time it fades altogether. If they are jumping a log or a boulder of course the jump continues. As I said, I suspect it is because it is wisest fro sheep moving in a pack to 'follow the leader'. And this behaviour is reflected in our idiom where somebody who does something simply because someone else did it is to to be behaving like a sheep. Cheers Jenny H Subject: Re: Jay re bees From: Simon Gadbois Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 20:46:16 -0400 To: cijohn Verizon CC: "Jay R. Feierman" , applied-ethology@usask.ca, human-ethology@yahoogroups.com On 1-Feb-08, at 11:35 AM, cijohn Verizon wrote: > I’m sorry if I’m posting this to too many lists --- I’m interested in this statement: > > At least in humans there is a coordinated motor pattern to fix one's gaze where another individual is gazing and pointing. It is actually difficult not to do this. If you are with someone and they look someplace with their eyes and point there, it is almost irresistible not to look Interesting, but I am not sure this is "Universal". When Povinelli came to Dal 10 years ago or so we discussed this issue in a cultural context. As a French canadian, I tend to "gesticulate" more than my 99.9% Anglo-Saxon audience (students, colleagues, etc.). I tend to point away and look away when I talk/teach. They will look away when I point away, even if I am not looking in that direction, and even people that have known me for 15 + years. Interestingly, the same behaviour does NOT have the same effect with a Francophone audience, and, I would assume, any "latin" people (Italian, Spanish, etc.). Cross-cultural psychologists on this list? Simon Gadbois ~~~~~~ Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Department of Psychology / Neuroscience Institute / Neuroscience Program Life Sciences Centre 1355 Oxford Street Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia B3H 4J1, Canada Canid ethology & fish neuroethology http://web.mac.com/ysg/ ~~~~~~ Subject: Re: Development of behaviour From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 19:54:54 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca (1) Ismail Thoya: If Darwins theory of evolution stands true then a really interesting phenomenon has taken place over the millions of years there has been life on earth.Cause for certain the behaviours we term instinctive and observed in the current animal populations must have developed with time.The interesting question is how? (2) Chris Sherwin: ...genetic drift, spontaneous mutation...exactly the same way that changes in morphology, physiology, etc. occur. (except in cases where we have artificially selected animals for particular behavioural characteristics). (3) Jay R. Feierman: Chris, is there a reason why you didn't mention "natural selection" above or is that just presumed. One of Lorenz's major contributions was to show that structurally defined coordinated motor patterns evolve and are subject to evolution by natural selection the same as structural organs. Such behaviors also have a phylogeny the same as structural morphological features. Subject: Re: Observational learning From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 09:43:21 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay R. Feierman: Yes, in the first statement ("but is for lack of a better term "instinctive," having been learned by their ancestors") I am referring to genetically transmitted information. Jenny H: "having been learned by their ancestors reeks of Lysenkoism and is not at all a good way to describe genetically controlled behaviour. Jay R. Feierman: If you read early Konrad Lorenz on this topic you will see that he used this metaphor in terms of the acquisition of instinctual behaviors which were mood dependent, structurally defined, coordinated motor patterns. These coordinated behaviors are heritable and are subject to natural selection the same as fixed, anatomical features. As a result, ancestral individuals who engaged in these coordinated behaviors appropriately and by doing so increased their reproductive success, left more ancestors than individuals who did not. A somewhat cute and shorthand way of conceptualizing this is to say that an individual learns the behavior from the individual's ancestors, or by the "innate school marm." For example a cat does not need to learn how to catch a mouse, as every cat is born with that knowledge. A dog by contrast is not born with this knowledge. The knowledge of how to catch a mouse was perfected by the cat's ancestors in that cats who did it better left more ancestors. This is in the "observational learning" thread but really has nothing to do with observational learning. Subject: Thank you From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 09:37:47 -0800 (PST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca To all of you who responded to my email about the live bait dog training issue in Indiana, I want to thank you. The Natural Resources Commission says this is now a world wide issue. I believe that is because of the people on this list. The Natural Resource Commission will be taking live comments at their meeting in May at one of the state parks in Northern Indiana. I will be there to speak. Our next step will be to try banning this bloodsport for the full year. The rule now, will just cover the off season for hunting and trapping. We still have a fight ahead. Thank you so much. I am told they even got one comment in french. They are having to hire an interpreter so that it can be counted. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Zen Trainer Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 12:21:51 -0600 To: Ethics List I think the last sentence sums it up. You have to be careful with generalizations. My experience with dogs and mirrors is that most of them are startled by their reflections, react fearfully or aggressively to the "strange" dog in the mirror. This always puzzled me. Surely they can smell there is no dog present? My dogs like animal TV shows, my kittens like all TV and sit raptly for long periods of time watching. Their eyes follow the movement and sometimes their paws. (Thank goodness I don't have one of those flimsy plasma TV's!) I had a clients dog once would would watch this decorating show, Trading Spaces. There was a part of the show where they sped up the action to show what had taken place over the weekend and my clients dog would race around and around the table during this portion of the show. I've trained a couple of thousand dogs over the years and am continually amazed by how many can't find the piece of cheeseburger on the ground in front of their nose. I've boarded hundreds of dogs and find it very interesting that most will run to the door if a doorbell rings on TV. Even the dogs who have never had a doorbell at their house. I use observational learning in a variety of ways with good results. Dogs that are afraid of a certain subset of people I will expose to that group of people as they play with dogs, while the dog I am working with watches from a distance. I do the same with dogs that are fearful of dogs or who don't know how to play. I let them observe. The results are really amazing. I believe they are masters at observing people as well. My own pup was being trained as a service dog to catch me when I fall. I nixed that when I had his hips and shoulders tested and found he could likely develop problems later in life. I don't want to put any extra weight on his joints. For several months it seemed like whenever I fell he was right there - almost as if he were tripping me. It took me two months to figure out that he was getting a visual cue that I was going off balance and was running up beside me to assist. I now use that as a signal to quickly balance myself and I haven't fallen in a long time. The two things that struck me about that were how closely he observed me and how dense I am. I expect a dog to learn a behavior after I have shown it only a couple of times (and they usually do.) It took my pup two months to get across to me what he was trying to tell me. Makes me wonder who really does have the big brain! Winking smiley emoticon Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org > Jay writes: We also know that dogs are almost oblivious to their reflections in > the mirror. The question is not if they recognize themselves, as the > higher apes can do when looking in the mirror. They don't react to > the dog image in the mirror at all, even if they were to perceive it > as another dog. John: These dogs show a lively interest in TV or video, if it shows other dogs (especially in pursuit of prey or lures) or prey animals. At least some of them also react to their image in a mirror. The most typical response is to approach the mirror, and then try to look behind it (they do this with a TV set too, especially if dogs are in the picture). John: There are, of course, many dog breeds whose visual abilities are greatly inferior to those of sighthounds (or of wolves), and some whose reliance on olfaction is so extreme one might be forgiven for thinking they hardly use their eyes at all. Some of the hounds bred for scent trailing (and during their education actively discouraged from chasing by sight) are good examples of this other end of the scale. Jay: > Therefore, based on the above, it would seem quite difficult to get a > dog to modify his behavior through learning by just observing a > human. To rule out that there were not other cues involved, I would > want the learning to occur just by a video with no sound of a human > doing something. My sense is that the dog would totally ignore the > video like a dog ignores the TV. Yet, I am aware that a dog can pick > up body language and pointing cues from a human. I suspect it does > that by association learning but I don't know the literature on this. > I'm sure it's been studied by the Budapest dog group. It matters greatly, also, just what behavior is being copied. For example, in social canids, social facilitation - including copying the behaviors of others - is very much a normal part of hunting and/or food-finding activities. It matters, also, whether the behavior being copied is already part of an animal's inventory, or is something new for that individual - and then, whether or not it is something novel, not part of any individual's normal repertoire. A bit of reflection on what might have been going on there will, I think, reveal the dangers of overly simplistic thinking in interpreting such observations . Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 12:27:18 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Zen Trainer: I've boarded hundreds of dogs and find it very interesting that most will run to the door if a doorbell rings on TV. Even the dogs who have never had a doorbell at their house. Jay R. Feierman: I can not believe that a dog who has never heard a real door bell ring and associated the sound with someone real coming to the door of the house in which the dog lives could learn that from TV so that when a doorbell rang on TV, the dog would run to the front door of the house in which it lives. We have a door with a doorbell and another door with no doorbell for which people need to knock. If one of our dogs even hears knocking on TV, like someone banging something, he will run to the front door and bark the same way as if he hears a doorbell on TV. So I know that dogs who have heard real doorbells and knocking associated with real people at the door will respond to these sounds on TV. Subject: RE: dog in mirrors From: Audrey Schwartz Rivers Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:49:01 -0600 To: ethology network Here's how my dogs react to their reflection in the mirror (or a display window for that matter). First, they bark at it -- I would ass-u-me it is because they see a "strange" dog in the mirror. Next, they stop barking, stare at the reflection in the mirror/window. They then walk away. Next time they pass the mirror or the window, they look at the reflection and do not bark at it. I also saw a stray dog (fairly young) go toward its image in a mirror, sniff at it, then totally ignore it. Because I have no clue what the dog is thinking (nor even what s/he is actually seeing), my anthropomorphic explanation is that the dog(s) quickly learn that the reflection in the mirror is something they need not worry about. Whether they understand it is really their own image, a "virtual" dog or something else, I don't think any of us can say for sure. Also, I do wonder if the mirror test is always a conclusive determination of awareness in all cases and with all species. Audrey Schwartz Rivers, MS Subject: Re: Thank you From: cissy stamm Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:02:01 -0800 To: Cecilia Lambert CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Please not that under the American with Disabilities Act, the NRC should be making the meeting both wheelchair accessible and accessible to people with hearing and vision impairments. Thanks, CeAnn. We've found that this is often overlooked and as a result we are excluded from participation. Cissy On Feb 2, 2008, at 9:37 AM, Cecilia Lambert wrote: > To all of you who responded to my email about the live bait dog training issue in Indiana, I want to thank you. The Natural Resources Commission says this is now a world wide issue. I believe that is because of the people on this list. > The Natural Resource Commission will be taking live comments at their meeting in May at one of the state parks in Northern Indiana. I will be there to speak. > Our next step will be to try banning this bloodsport for the full year. The rule now, will just cover the off season for hunting and trapping. We still have a fight ahead. > Thank you so much. I am told they even got one comment in french. They are having to hire an interpreter so that it can be counted. > CeAnn > > > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.coyoterescue.org > Please visit our gift shop @ > www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Re: dog in mirrors From: doggiepause@comcast.net Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 22:15:40 +0000 To: Sabine Goubau , Audrey Schwartz Rivers CC: ethology network I'm just a lurker, as I don't have the credentials the rest of you have, but I can't resist this. My dog daycare had a large mirror on one wall of the playroom. New dogs would *sometimes* catch their reflection in it and react. (Stop & stare, sniff, etc.) After that first time, they paid no attention As far as I could tell, they did not react to the reflections of the other dogs, but this might just have been that the others weren't as close to the mirror, weren't facing it head-on, or ???? We did have one standard poodle who put her paws up on her relfection and appeared to be boxing with it -- poodle play-style -- for a couple of seconds. Judy Gee -------------- Original message -------------- From: Sabine Goubau > My Shetland sheepdog sees something in the mirror and sniffs cautiously > to identify it. > A Havanese I fostered for a few months, barked at the image or movement > in the mirror and would observe it for long periods of time. > My boxer looked at me in the eyes via the mirror the first time we were > both facing a mirror. I could not tell a difference from the eye contact > we make when we are face to face. My impression is that she recognized > me. She looked astonished and turned around to make eye contact with me > (I was obviously behind her, facing the mirror). Then she went back and > forth between my face in the mirror and my face behind her looking > deeply puzzled. I could always make eye contact and hold h er gaze as > well via the mirror and when we were face to face, but she lost interest > faster. > A friend of mine claims that her two French bulldogs recognize her in > the mirror , but her two mastiffs don't. I have no details about their > behaviour in those situations. > > Sabine > > Audrey Schwartz Rivers wrote: > > > Here's how my dogs react to their reflection in the mirror (or a > > display window for that matter). > > > > First, they bark at it -- I would ass-u-me it is because they see a > > "strange" dog in the mirror. > > > > Next, they stop barking, stare at the reflection in the mirror/window. > > > > They then walk away. > > > > Next time they pass the mirror or the window, they look at the > > reflection and do not bark at it. > > > > I also saw a stray dog (f airly young) go toward its image in a > > mirror, sniff at it, then totally ignore it. > > > > Because I have no clue what the dog is thinking (nor even what s/he > > is actually seeing), my anthropomorphic explanation is that the dog > > (s) quickly learn that the reflection in the mirror is something they > > need not worry about. Whether they understand it is really their own > > image, a "virtual" dog or something else, I don't think any of us can > > say for sure. Also, I do wonder if the mirror test is always a > > conclusive determination of awareness in all cases and with all species. > > > > Audrey Schwartz Rivers, MS > > > > Subject: Re: dog in mirrors From: Audrey Schwartz Rivers Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 17:30:26 -0600 To: doggiepause@comcast.net CC: Sabine Goubau , ethology network Judy -- Welcome from lurking. Never feel you are any less knowledgeable than any other person on this site. Those of us who live, love and work with dogs (and other animals) have a wealth of knowledge equal to any ethologist in the laboratory (or field). After all, the plural of anecdote is data! As David Mamet once said -- "The poker player learns that sometimes both science and common sense are wrong; that the bumblebee can fly; that, perhaps, one should never trust an expert; that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of by those with an academic bent." Audrey Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Virginia Bowen Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:37:14 -0600 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca [Virginia Bowen] Jay said: I used to live on the Navajo Indian reservation in Fort Defiance, Arizona in the early 1970s. In those days there was a band of wild horses who used to roam through the town. One of the horses in the band learned how to open the gates that were on all of the houses. There was green grass inside the gates on the lawns, at least in the summer time. They were government houses with standard gates. The latch on the gate was the type that if one pushed it up, the gate opened. However, only one horse out of the band of about 8 horses knew how to do this. The behavior to open the latch was just the typical nuzzling behavior that horses to do one another, which is an upward motion of the head. The only thing different was that there was no "releasing stimulus" of something to be nuzzled, other than a metal gate. I knew which horse could open the gate. I would watch a group of horses go to the gate and wait for the one horse to open it. They obviously did not learn how to do this by observing him. I watched this behavior for almost two years and still only one horse knew how to open gates. The people in the town used to put locks on the gate so that this one horse would not open them. He would go from house to house "checking" the gates to see if anyone forgot to lock it. Maybe once a week he got lucky and one would then see 8 or so wild horses in someone's yard eating the lawn grass. There were about 30 such gated houses in the town. [Virginia Bowen] I have personal knowledge of transmission of the ability to open gates among my donkey herd. One donkey, who has since died, came into the herd already well-practiced at manipulating gates. At first she used it to play jokes on her herd mates, closing them in a stall and leaving them there – with the other thinking she was trapped. BUT, after a few times of this, I *saw* our little brown mini carefully watch Nutmeg as she manipulated the gate, and Chloe now opens any gate she chooses (that does not have a locking mechanism on it). Further, our other mini has also learned to open the gates, from watching Chloe do it. I’m just starting to catch up on all of this discussion, but it seems to me that Andy had a valid point in the description of what defines “culture.” Whenever I have introduced a new donkey, horse, or mule to a new group, there is the expected species-typical hierarchical type activity, but if you watch closely there are also changes in the group behaviors…such as the gate opening of our donkey herd by introducing Nutmeg. Games that they play, toys they play with, etc. seem to change when there is a new member – especially if that member is the leader. Our donkeys’ herd “culture” (if you will allow me for a moment) changed dramatically when we brought home our second mammoth, Edie. Edie quite clearly looked at Nutmeg, Chloe, and Vickie and demanded to be integrated right away, at which point she marched straight to the best stall in the barn (free access) where she stayed that night. She made clear in a few moments she intended to be the new herd matriarch. Edie brought with her a seriousness that had been lacking in the herd before her arrival, and the “mood” or “culture” of the herd changed to one where herd hierarchies were taken more seriously than previously. I had almost written something there about delaying gratification – not to stray off the topic too much, but my husband and I have observed Edie with her cookies in her morning oats appearing to do just that. She loves a certain kind of cookie, and I would think that if her favourite cookie was in the dish, then she’d eat them all first. But she doesn’t. She finds them all, pushes them to one side and has one every now and then, always saving one for last. If there are other kinds of cookies in the dish, she will eat them all first before eating her oats. It’s only with this one cookie that she will push all the other donkeys out of the way for that she does this “saving” behaviour. Further, she seems to know how many of that kind of cookie she has left at any moment, and if one of the other donkeys comes round trying to steal her food, she’ll quickly grab up her cookie(s) before abandoning her dish. Virginia Brownwood, TX Subject: BOOKING INQUIRY From: Hanks Payne Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 08:52:37 -0800 (PST) To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hi, I will like to book reservation for 8 people that will be coming for vacation in your area on the 10th March to 20th March 2008. If you have vacancy for the specified period, give me the total cost for the whole period of 4 single or double rooms for 10 nights for 8 guest. Also, confirm if you will accept major credit card for your payment. Thank you and looking forward to hearing from soon. Kind Regards, Dr. Hanks Payne 12 Murrayfield Avenue Edinburgh EH12 6 AY, Scotland +447024062538 Fax: +44-7005-806-775 Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Subject: Visual Observation and brain patterns From: peterhaskins Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 12:45:12 +1100 To: ethology I've just come across this article which is appropriate to the Observational Learning discussion. Cheers, Jenny H http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/08/030814071840.htm Excerpt: ScienceDaily (Aug. 14, 2003) — New findings from a Queen's behavioural expert in eye/hand movement provide the first direct evidence that our brain patterns are similar whether we are actually doing something or simply watching someone else do it . . . "These results indicate that eye movements while observing an action task are linked with parts of the neural processes for planning and controlling manual action," says Dr. Flanagan. "This may provide insights into how we learn to perform tasks by watching." Measuring eye movements in people while they observe skilled tasks will help us assess whether the subjects are learning the task, by determining whether their eye movements match those of the skilled performer, he adds. Subject: Re: Observational learning From: peterhaskins Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 14:13:34 +1100 To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: ethology I'm sorry, I think you missed my point! Regardless of whether Lorenz used this language, I do not think it is "somewhat cute". It is incorrect and misleading. It is not a metaphor. There is no excuse for not using correct scientific explanations. Having been a Biology Teacher I can assure you that I had to frequently overcome firmly entrenched misconceptions in the students due to the use of such 'shorthand expressions'. You say "The knowledge of how to catch a mouse was perfected by the cat's ancestors in that cats who did it better left more ancestors." This again is quite incorrect. The cat's ancestors merely caught mice and survived. Those that caught mice more efficiently reared more offspring. No 'knowledge" was involved. Certainly a mother cat seems to teach her off-spring to hunt, and a mother who is a better hunter could possibly teach her kittens better techniques. But we don't know that as far as I know. Cross-fostering of kittens with good hunters as parents with those from poor hunters might enlighten us as to how much 'teaching' is necessary for a kitten to learn hunting techniques. If you observe a mother cat with her kittens she seems to do little more than bring live prey to the kittens to practise on. The other but similarly incorrect and lamentable expression to describe Evolution of certain characteristics is to say something along the lines of "Plants grow taller because they want to reach the light.," and similar rubbish. It more correct and certainly more informative to simply say, "Such and such a behaviour evolved within then species because it lead to increased reproductive success, or for younger of less educated people to say "Such and such a behaviour is common in that species because the individuals that behaved this way survived to produce off-spring like themselves." Or "Plants that grow taller than those around them get more light and so produce more seeds." Using the language that is relevant to the audience. And certainly cutesy and incorrect fictionalisation of the evolution of behavioural patterns is, regardless of it's incorrectness, not at all suitable to this list ----- Original Message ----- Jenny H: "having been learned by their ancestors reeks of Lysenkoism and is not at all a good way to describe genetically controlled behaviour. Jay R. Feierman: If you read early Konrad Lorenz on this topic you will see that he used this metaphor in terms of the acquisition of instinctual behaviors which were mood dependent, structurally defined, coordinated motor patterns. These coordinated behaviors are heritable and are subject to natural selection the same as fixed, anatomical features. As a result, ancestral individuals who engaged in these coordinated behaviors appropriately and by doing so increased their reproductive success, left more ancestors than individuals who did not. A somewhat cute and shorthand way of conceptualizing this is to say that an individual learns the behavior from the individual's ancestors, or by the "innate school marm." For example a cat does not need to learn how to catch a mouse, as every cat is born with that knowledge. A dog by contrast is not born with this knowledge. The knowledge of how to catch a mouse was perfected by the cat's ancestors in that cats who did it better left more ancestors. This is in the "observational learning" thread but really has nothing to do with observational learning. Subject: Re: Development of behaviour From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 11:06:51 +0000 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay, Apologies....natural selection was indeed just presumed to be an influence. Chris --On 01 February 2008 19:54 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: > > > (1) Ismail Thoya: If Darwins theory of evolution stands true then a > really interesting phenomenon has taken place over the millions of years > there has been life on earth.Cause for certain the behaviours we term > instinctive and observed in the current animal populations must have > developed with time.The interesting question is how? > > (2) Chris Sherwin: ...genetic drift, spontaneous mutation...exactly the > same way that changes in morphology, physiology, etc. occur. (except in > cases where we have artificially selected animals for particular > behavioural characteristics). > > (3) Jay R. Feierman: Chris, is there a reason why you didn't mention > "natural selection" above or is that just presumed. One of Lorenz's major > contributions was to show that structurally defined coordinated motor > patterns evolve and are subject to evolution by natural selection the > same as structural organs. Such behaviors also have a phylogeny the same > as structural morphological features. > > > > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: Observational learning From: Peter Kabai Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:39:09 +0100 To: peterhaskins CC: "Jay R. Feierman" , ethology Dear peterhaskins, let me respond to the use of language (it is fun for me, as English is not my first language). 1) "Plants grow taller because they want to reach the light.," if rubbish, it is so, because plants do not have will. However, if you replace "want" to "choose", or "decide", you are talking behavior ecology and that is science :-) . 2) "Plants that grow taller than those around them get more light and so produce more seeds." is long and complicated and I am afraid incorrect. You explain a phenomenon by an untested mechanism: a single directional selection for hight in plants. So I think "plants may decide to grow taller to get more light" is OK to say if the parties know that "decision" in behav. ecol. as in decision theory is not a cognitive process. Similarly, if we knew that cats do not learn anything about killing mice, we do not need recite the Sixth Edition, because we do not know the precise evolutionary mechanisms. However, cats might need to learn a lot about killing rodents: when and where, and the precise technique specific to the rodent species and circumstances. How much of this information is gathered by observation in that species we do not know. We know a little about the mechanism (mirror neuron system, systems for comparing motor programs of actions following the action as in song learning) and in the future comparison of such systems among species will be possible and may be useful. We know a bit more about observation learning at the level of behaviour. I guess in species in which individuals monitor each other and perform intentional movements when watching others a stronger predisposition for observational learning will be found (dogs versus cats). It is difficulty to demonstrate observation learning, partly because real learning is complex with many processes. Then to simplify the complex process we come up with extremely artificial paradigms incomprehensible for the animals. Some of these, however, may be quite useful if they capitalize imprinting-like, vital for survival kind of learning processes. For example, Rose showed that one day old chicks avoid a bitter tasting bead if they saw a companion pecking at it (resulting in a disgust response). http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0003347298909010 Although the taste aversion paradigm in the lab is artificial (metal bead, bad tasting chemicals, chicks in pairs etc.) learning about nutritious or aversive seeds in nature is vital for the chick who has to learn to feed itself in 3 days. Perhaps this is why even such a controlled artificial situation still can provoke the natural response and learning. These are interesting times, science is struggling to demonstrate what most dog and cat loving people have known for long: the difference among us is mostly quantitative. Best wishes, Peter On 04/02/2008, peterhaskins wrote: > > > > > > I'm sorry, I think you missed my point! > > > > Regardless of whether Lorenz used this language, I do not think it is > > "somewhat cute". It is incorrect and misleading. It is not a metaphor. > > > > There is no excuse for not using correct scientific explanations. > > > > Having been a Biology Teacher I can assure you that I had to frequently > > overcome firmly entrenched misconceptions in the students due to the use of > > such 'shorthand expressions'. > > > > > > You say > > "The knowledge of how to catch a mouse was perfected by the cat's ancestors > > in that cats who did it better left more ancestors." > > This again is quite incorrect. The cat's ancestors merely caught mice and > > survived. Those that caught mice more efficiently reared more offspring. > > No 'knowledge" was involved. Certainly a mother cat seems to teach her > > off-spring to hunt, and a mother who is a better hunter could possibly teach > > her kittens better techniques. But we don't know that as far as I know. > > Cross-fostering of kittens with good hunters as parents with those from poor > > hunters might enlighten us as to how much 'teaching' is necessary for a > > kitten to learn hunting techniques. If you observe a mother cat with her > > kittens she seems to do little more than bring live prey to the kittens to > > practise on. > > > > > > The other but similarly incorrect and lamentable expression to describe > > Evolution of certain characteristics is to say something along the lines of > > "Plants grow taller because they want to reach the light.," and similar > > rubbish. > > > > It more correct and certainly more informative to simply say, "Such and such > > a behaviour evolved within then species because it lead to increased > > reproductive success, or for younger of less educated people to say "Such > > and such a behaviour is common in that species because the individuals that > > behaved this way survived to produce off-spring like themselves." Or > > "Plants that grow taller than those around them get more light and so > > produce more seeds." > > > > Using the language that is relevant to the audience. And certainly cutesy > > and incorrect fictionalisation of the evolution of behavioural patterns is, > > regardless of it's incorrectness, not at all suitable to this list > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > Jenny H: "having been learned by their ancestors reeks of Lysenkoism and is > > not at all a good way to describe genetically controlled behaviour. > > > > Jay R. Feierman: If you read early Konrad Lorenz on this topic you will see > > that he used this metaphor in terms of the acquisition of instinctual > > behaviors which were mood dependent, structurally defined, coordinated motor > > patterns. These coordinated behaviors are heritable and are subject to > > natural selection the same as fixed, anatomical features. As a result, > > ancestral individuals who engaged in these coordinated behaviors > > appropriately and by doing so increased their reproductive success, left > > more ancestors than individuals who did not. A somewhat cute and shorthand > > way of conceptualizing this is to say that an individual learns the behavior > > from the individual's ancestors, or by the "innate school marm." For example > > a cat does not need to learn how to catch a mouse, as every cat is born with > > that knowledge. A dog by contrast is not born with this knowledge. The > > knowledge of how to catch a mouse was perfected by the cat's ancestors in > > that cats who did it better left more ancestors. This is in the > > "observational learning" thread but really has nothing to do with > > observational learning. > > > > > > -- Peter Kabai, PhD Associate Professor Dept Ecology, Szent Istvan University http://www.behav.org Subject: Re: Observational learning From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:26:43 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Peter Haskins: Regardless of whether Lorenz used this language, I do not think it is "somewhat cute". It is incorrect and misleading. It is not a metaphor. You [Jay R. Feierman] say "The knowledge of how to catch a mouse was perfected by the cat's ancestors in that cats who did it better left more ancestors." This again is quite incorrect. Jay R. Feierman: The "innate school marm" metaphor is fixed in the history of Ethology, as there was much discussion using this phrase in the 1950s between Lorenz and his critics. It depends on what is meant by "knowledge." Perhaps "instructions" is a better term. Metaphors can occasionally be helpful as long as they are not used as propositions for arguments and one then reasons using the metaphor. I did not do this with the "innate school marm" metaphor which is part of the history of Ethology. See the following, which comes from http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:XzmbgmalQeMJ:nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1973/lorenz-autobio.html+%22innate+school+marm%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us A major advance in ethological theory was triggered in 1953 by a violent critique by Daniel D. Lehrmann who impugned the validity of the ethological concept of the innate. As Tinbergen described it, the community of ethologists was humming like a disturbed bee-hive. At a discussion arranged by Professor Grassé in Paris, I said that Lehrmann, in trying to avoid the assumption of innate knowledge, was inadvertently postulating the existence of an "innate school-marm". This was meant at a reduction to the absurd and shows my own error: it took me years to realize that this error was identical with that committed by Lehrmann and consisted in conceiving of the "innate" and of the "learned" as of disjunctive contradictory concepts. I came to realize that, of course, the problem why learning produces adaptive behaviour, rests exclusively with the "innate school-marm", in other words with the phylogenetically programmed teaching mechanism. Lehrmann came to realize the same and on this realisation we became friends. In 1961 I published a paper "Phylogenetische Anpassung und adaptive Modifikation des Verhaltens", which I later expanded into a book called "Evolution and Modification of Behaviour" (Harvard University Press, 1961). Peter Haskins: The cat's ancestors merely caught mice and survived. Those that caught mice more efficiently reared more offspring. No 'knowledge" was involved. Jay R. Feierman: Again, it depends on what is meant by "knowledge." When I use the term "knowledge" I mean that the instructions for how to catch a mouse does not have to be learned de novo by every kitten, as kittens are born with perceptual and behavioral predispositions which make mouse catching learning second nature to them. A kitten is born with the proclivity to attend to, stalk and pounce on anything small moving away from it, especially when it makes crinkling sorts of sounds. One can demonstrate this with a month old kitten by putting a crumpled up piece of paper on a string and moving it away from the kitten. The kitten pounces on it and then does a few other coordinated motor patterns that would be associated with prey capture. An adult can "teach itself" to catch mice even if it had no contact with a mouse catching mother from which it was born and who raised it in a mouse rich environment. Peter Haskins: Certainly a mother cat seems to teach her off-spring to hunt, and a mother who is a better hunter could possibly teach her kittens better techniques. Jay R Feierman: A cat does not have to learn to hunt and catch mice form its mother. See Paul Leyhausen's masterpiece on this subject at http://www.amazon.com/Cat-Behavior-Predatory-Domestic-ethology/dp/0824070178/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202155851&sr=1-4 . The "innate school marm," a term which you don't like, can teach any cat how to hunt very easily. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Observational learning From: peterhaskins Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 12:06:37 +1100 To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: ethology >> Jay R. Feierman: . . . It depends on what is meant by "knowledge." Perhaps "instructions" is a better term. Metaphors can occasionally be helpful as long as they are not used as propositions for arguments and one then reasons using the metaphor. >> I have never encountered the word "knowledge" used in the contex that you use it, not with that meaning. Knowledge is not instructions, though you can have a knowledge of the instructions about something. To "Know" is defined in my English Dictionary as "To be informed of". Knowledge is defined as "enlightenment, learning". It is also defined as "pracrtical skill" though in usage it is restricted to a learned skill. Since Lorenz wrote in German I would suspect that IF in translations of his work the term 'knowledge' was used to describe innate behaviours, it was a mistranslation and "skill" would have been a better translation. (I say this because in the translations of his work that I have read, I have not encountered the term "knowledge" in the context you describe it. Mataphors MIGHT be alright so long as they are not misleading. I do think, seriously, that in the US you have enough ptroblems with the resistance to accepting the fact of evolution of life, that this 'metaphor' is extremely regrettable. It will fuel misunderstanding. And just while I have the Dictionary here, "Observe" is defined (in part) as "to direct watchful and critical attention to, with a view to ascertaining, a fact." "Observable" as "perceptible" or as a noun "something that can be observed by the senses." Observation "The act of recognising and noting phenomena as they occur in nature." And it sorigin is from the Latin "ob -- towards" and "servare -- to keep". In other words while 'observe' is commonly applied to 'seeing' is is not restrictred to this. Considering that dogs have a much better sense of smell than of sight, then a dog learning through the sense of smell could properly be describes as "observational learning". However, to avoid confusion it might be better to describe such learning as "perceptional learning"? Jenny H Coffs Australia Subject: Re: Observational learning From: peterhaskins Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 14:55:14 +1100 To: ethology ----- Original Message ----- > let me respond to the use of language (it is fun for me, as English is > not my first language). > > 1) "Plants grow taller because they want to reach the light.," if rubbish, it is so, because plants do not have will. However, if you replace "want" to "choose", or "decide", you are talking behavior ecology and that is science :-).> > 2) "Plants that grow taller than those around them get more light and so produce more seeds." is long and complicated and I am afraid incorrect. You explain a phenomenon by an untested mechanism: a single directional selection for hight in plants. So I think "plants may decide to grow taller to get more light" is OK to say if the parties know that "decision" in behav. ecol. as in decision theory is not a cognitive process. > Best wishes, Peter I think the problem here might be the age and sophistication of the students we have/had. You are (I presume) talking to tertiary-educated people. I am talking of primary and secondary school students. They DO absolutely take you literally. If you have not had this problem with your students, then thank a secondary school teacher for not confusing them. For starters I think replacing 'want' with 'choose' or 'decide' is every bit as incorrect and unscientific. There is no choice or decision involved in plants or animals or in the lesser Kingdoms. Future generations are descendants of the individuals that lived long enough to reproduce themselves. This is what "natural selection" is all about. The effect of the environment (both organic and physical) on survival and reproductive fitness. Behavioural ecology notwithstanding, we were (I thought) talking about innate behaviour patterns. Sure, in humans, and some other social species, (acquired) knowledge CAN be passed down to future generations. Isn't this what we call culture? Though it might be disputable though to say that we choose to behave according to our culture -- we are after all genetically programmed to learn such things. There is probably little if any "free-choice" involved. Sorry if my earlier statement was over-simplistic and thus incorrect (or would you say more "not the whole story"?)-- but I still maintain that as a general guide to evolution of anything, including behaviour, it is far less misleading than to imply any choice, decision or want. Thank for the URL. Interesting, though not surprising to me as I have reared chicks from the egg. Cheers, Jenny H Subject: FW: Observational learning From: Andy Beck Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 17:27:17 +1300 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca "........Though it might be disputable though to say that we choose to behave according to our culture -- we are after all genetically programmed to learn such things. There is probably little if any "free-choice" involved." Surely this is a question of education and age? Perhaps when a child is young it is unable to rationally appraise the culture it 'absorbs' - but as it becomes older and better educated its ability to judge, and either accept or dismiss, the memes of the culture to which it is exposed increases. If this is not true how does any person choose to make alterations? Regards Andy Beck -----Original Message----- From: peterhaskins [mailto:peterhaskins@bigpond.com] Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2008 4:55 p.m. To: ethology Subject: Re: Observational learning ----- Original Message ----- > let me respond to the use of language (it is fun for me, as English is > > not my first language). > > > > 1) "Plants grow taller because they want to reach the light.," if rubbish, > > it is so, because plants do not have will. However, if you replace "want" > > to "choose", or "decide", you are talking behavior ecology and that is > > science :-).> > > 2) "Plants that grow taller than those around them get more light and so > > produce more seeds." is long and complicated and I am afraid incorrect. > > You explain a phenomenon by an untested mechanism: a single directional > > selection for hight in plants. So I think "plants may decide to grow > > taller to get more light" is OK to say if the parties know that "decision" > > in behav. ecol. as in decision theory is not a cognitive process. > > Best wishes, Peter I think the problem here might be the age and sophistication of the students we have/had. You are (I presume) talking to tertiary-educated people. I am talking of primary and secondary school students. They DO absolutely take you literally. If you have not had this problem with your students, then thank a secondary school teacher for not confusing them. For starters I think replacing 'want' with 'choose' or 'decide' is every bit as incorrect and unscientific. There is no choice or decision involved in plants or animals or in the lesser Kingdoms. Future generations are descendants of the individuals that lived long enough to reproduce themselves. This is what "natural selection" is all about. The effect of the environment (both organic and physical) on survival and reproductive fitness. Behavioural ecology notwithstanding, we were (I thought) talking about innate behaviour patterns. Sure, in humans, and some other social species, (acquired) knowledge CAN be passed down to future generations. Isn't this what we call culture? Though it might be disputable though to say that we choose to behave according to our culture -- we are after all genetically programmed to learn such things. There is probably little if any "free-choice" involved. Sorry if my earlier statement was over-simplistic and thus incorrect (or would you say more "not the whole story"?)-- but I still maintain that as a general guide to evolution of anything, including behaviour, it is far less misleading than to imply any choice, decision or want. Thank for the URL. Interesting, though not surprising to me as I have reared chicks from the egg. Cheers, Jenny H Subject: Re: Observational learning From: peterhaskins Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:12:48 +1100 To: wheep@xtra.co.nz CC: ethology From: "Andy Beck" > Surely this is a question of education and age? Perhaps when a child is > young it is unable to rationally appraise the culture it 'absorbs' - but as > it becomes older and better educated its ability to judge, and either accept > or dismiss, the memes of the culture to which it is exposed increases. If > this is not true how does any person choose to make alterations? > Andy Beck Yes, young children take their cultural medium as the norm -- the right thing, or "this is the way it is." It is usually in adolescence that individuals question their own culture. Some go to extremes like going to India and joining an Ashram (which they may or may not grow out of) but mostly any changes are very small compared to the cultural component of their life. And this flexibility art adolescence is probably also a survival mechanism that has been selected for so that the immature individuals more away from the parents. I also know that marrying into a different culture can expose great differences in what we have thought of as innate values. It is hard enough marrying into a different social class or branch of the same religion. We grow up taking so many things as 'normal' and then realise with shock that others don't share this view at all. Of course such things change over time -- and that can be a shock to us oldies. "My Husband and I" still rely on visiting children and grandchildren to cope with technology for us :-) I think (talking from experience again) we get more stodgy and set in our ways as we age and tend to revert to our childhood values. (Wasn't this what Alvin Tofler's "Future Shock" was about? I never read it, though at one stage it was a 'set text :-( Cheers, Jenny H Subject: Re: Observational learning From: Peter Kabai Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:41:45 +0100 To: peterhaskins CC: ethology Jenny, discussion on the possibility of observation learning in horses, dogs has been going on for a week now, and you are not surprised that one-day old chicks do learn by observation. I am surprised. :-) Students come with all sorts of ideas and my task, I believe, is to be a coach to train them in a special frame of thinking. Yes, we can start with plants growing higher getting more light, producing more seeds but even a six year old kid would see this cannot work because plants do not grow up to the Moon. So there are many factors affecting the success of plants and if you consider the most important factors you pretty soon get to strategies, decisions etc. and at the end kids will have a pretty good insight into evolutionary theory. It is also fun. And good science. http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/10/6/666 The argument "such and such a behaviour evolved within then species because it lead to increased reproductive success" does not explain much and is simply a statement that "I firmly believe in the power of natural/sexual selection". However, we still do not know how powerful selection has been in evolution compared to drift. And selection itself is a complicated, interesting story, again permitting the coexistence of different strategies. It is an important message to little kids because it confirms that is OK to be tall or short, muscular or skinny. Why am I getting bald? Here is what I think :-) http://www.behav.org/kabai/abstracts/kabai_alopaecia.pdf What you say about this is really not correct (not the whole story :-): "The effect of the environment (both organic and physical) on survival and reproductive fitness. Behavioural ecology notwithstanding, we were (I thought) talking about innate behaviour patterns." Behavioural ecology tries to explain how animals optimize their behaviour to given factors, and when you include other individuals as factors you think about behaviour as decisons, strategies as in game theory. I cannot explain the evolution of our enormous brain capacity by adaptation to organic and physical environment. If you can get a popular version of Barry Sinervo's work with lizards that would be very educational to 6 year old kids. http://www.behav.org/IEC/default.php?proc=search&search=a_num&id=565 Kids can play stone-paper-scissor game, so do lizards. It is fun! Cheers, Peter On 05/02/2008, peterhaskins wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > let me respond to the use of language (it is > > fun for me, as English is >> > > not my first language). >> > > >> > > 1) "Plants grow taller because they want to reach the light.," if rubbish, >> > > it is so, because plants do not have will. However, if you replace "want" >> > > to "choose", or "decide", you are talking behavior ecology and that is >> > > science :-).> >> > > 2) "Plants that grow taller than those around them get more light and so >> > > produce more seeds." is long and complicated and I am afraid incorrect. >> > > You explain a phenomenon by an untested mechanism: a single directional >> > > selection for hight in plants. So I think "plants may decide to grow >> > > taller to get more light" is OK to say if the parties know that "decision" >> > > in behav. ecol. as in decision theory is not a cognitive process. >> > > Best wishes, Peter > > > > > > I think the problem here might be the age and sophistication of the students > > we have/had. > > You are (I presume) talking to tertiary-educated people. I am talking of > > primary and secondary school students. They DO absolutely take you > > literally. If you have not had this problem with your students, then thank > > a secondary school teacher for not confusing them. > > > > For starters I think replacing 'want' with 'choose' or 'decide' is every bit > > as incorrect and unscientific. There is no choice or decision involved in > > plants or animals or in the lesser Kingdoms. Future generations are > > descendants of the individuals that lived long enough to reproduce > > themselves. > > This is what "natural selection" is all about. The effect of the > > environment (both organic and physical) on survival and reproductive > > fitness. > > > > Behavioural ecology notwithstanding, we were (I thought) talking about > > innate behaviour patterns. > > > > Sure, in humans, and some other social species, (acquired) knowledge CAN be > > passed down to future generations. Isn't this what we call culture? > > Though it might be disputable though to say that we choose to behave > > according to our culture -- we are after all genetically programmed to learn > > such things. There is probably little if any "free-choice" involved. > > > > Sorry if my earlier statement was over-simplistic and thus incorrect (or > > would you say more "not the whole story"?)-- but I still maintain that as a > > general guide to evolution of anything, including behaviour, it is far less > > misleading than to imply any choice, decision or want. > > > > > > Thank for the URL. Interesting, though not surprising to me as I have > > reared chicks from the egg. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Jenny H > > > > -- Peter Kabai, PhD Associate Professor Dept Ecology, Szent Istvan University http://www.behav.org Subject: [Fwd: Farm animal enrichment] From: joseph stookey Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 09:22:50 -0600 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca, john.mcglone@ttu.edu HI Everyone, John McGlone is seeking some pictures on farm animal enrichment devices - and is "asking people if they would be willing to share pictures of effective and not-so effective enrichment devices and procedures". If you have any would please send them to him directly at: john.mcglone@ttu.edu Thanks, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Professor of Applied Ethology Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: Farm animal enrichment From: "Mcglone, John" Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 09:12:44 -0600 To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca Joe, I am speaking at a USA meeting of animal care people in March on Enrichment of Ag Animals. Could you please send a request to the ISAE/Applied Ethology list-serv asking people if they would be willing to share pictures of effective and not-so effective enrichment devices and procedures? Of course, I will give them full credit. International pictures would be great, too. I would like to examples on a web page after the talk so everyone can benefit. I get this request from time to time. Enrichment is encouraged in our teaching and research guides, but what are effective tools to use? In case people might be interested in going, the meeting is found at: http://www.primr.org/Conferences.aspx?id=2919 Thanks very much. John John J. McGlone, PhD Professor and Institutional Official Animal and Food Sciences Animal Care Services Texas Tech University Lubbock, TX 79409-2141 USA john.mcglone@ttu.edu 806-742-2805, ext. 246 Subject: Re: Observational Learning From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 18:26:51 +0000 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay, I can't but help wonder what is the motivation behind discussing a highly simplistic anomalous response as if this is representative of all, or a large, number of animals. After all, my mum once started asking directions from a cardboard cut-out petrol pump attendant!!!....but I would not suggest that this is the way in which humans carry out their normal means of communication. When we see such anomalous behaviours in animals, such as the robin attacking red painted feathers (or birds trying to hatch oversize eggs, animals getting addicted to drugs, drinking saccharine, etc), it is usually because the experimenter has interfered with the rules-of-thumb of the behaviour and presented a stimulus for which the animal has not evolved/learnt an appropriate response. Chris --On 01 February 2008 11:57 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: > > Chris Sherwin: However, territory defence by birds can be considerably > more complex than that. Some birds will modify the intensity of their > defence songs in according to who the intruder is and where the intrusion > occurs. If the intruder is a neighbour in a usual place on the territory > boundary, the defender sings far less vigorously (presumably to conserve > energy and time) than if the intruder is unfamiliar , or in an unexpected > place. A little more sophisticated than simply singing at a painted > model.... > > Jay R. Feierman: My understanding is that a male robin in a territory > will attack another male robin who comes into his territory. There have > been ethological experiments in which the male robin will also attack a > stick upon which a number of red painted feathers have been attached has > also been attacked when it was brought into a male robin's territory. I > was not talking about singing at a painted model. I tried to find a video > of this male robin attack something red behavior in his territory on the > web but could not. The closest I found is a male robin attacking a "loon > suncatcher," whatever that means. See > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8465646756274013902&q=robin+attac > k+territory&total=3&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 . It > appears to be a piece of colored glass with a loon image on it. I can't > see if there is any red in the glass. The male robin appears to be > attacking the loon picture in the glass. > > To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > > > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: Observational Learning From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 11:41:32 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hello Chris, Regarding your comments below, the red painted feathers on a stick are just a model which a male robin in a territory will attack. The model represents enough features of a real male robin to show what the actual releasing stimulus is. That is a classic method of ethological research. Tinbergen's early work on the herring gull chicks who pecked at red spots on little wooden bills he made were just to show that the red dot on the bill of the mother herring gull was what the baby bird was really attending to and what caused it to open its mouth. They did not peck if he painted the dots blue. Same with the classic Tinbergen experiments on the 3-spined stickleback where he showed that a little piece of cigar shaped wood with a red underside would cause a male 3-spined stickleback to attack it if it was brought into the male's territory. Models in ethology are essential to be able to figure out what feature of a stimulus is actually attended to by an individual and cause the individual to act with a specific structurally defined, mood dependent, coordinated motor pattern. Good models are not out of the ordinary. They are in fact abstractions of the ordinary. Regards, Jay R Feierman ----- Original Message ----- From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" To: "Jay R. Feierman" ; Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 11:26 AM Subject: Re: Observational Learning > Jay, > I can't but help wonder what is the motivation behind discussing a highly simplistic anomalous response as if this is representative of all, or a large, number of animals. After all, my mum once started asking directions from a cardboard cut-out petrol pump attendant!!!....but I would not suggest that this is the way in which humans carry out their normal means of communication. > > When we see such anomalous behaviours in animals, such as the robin attacking red painted feathers (or birds trying to hatch oversize eggs, animals getting addicted to drugs, drinking saccharine, etc), it is usually because the experimenter has interfered with the rules-of-thumb of the behaviour and presented a stimulus for which the animal has not evolved/learnt an appropriate response. > > Chris > > --On 01 February 2008 11:57 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: > >> >> Chris Sherwin: However, territory defence by birds can be considerably >> more complex than that. Some birds will modify the intensity of their >> defence songs in according to who the intruder is and where the intrusion >> occurs. If the intruder is a neighbour in a usual place on the territory >> boundary, the defender sings far less vigorously (presumably to conserve >> energy and time) than if the intruder is unfamiliar , or in an unexpected >> place. A little more sophisticated than simply singing at a painted >> model.... >> >> Jay R. Feierman: My understanding is that a male robin in a territory >> will attack another male robin who comes into his territory. There have >> been ethological experiments in which the male robin will also attack a >> stick upon which a number of red painted feathers have been attached has >> also been attacked when it was brought into a male robin's territory. I >> was not talking about singing at a painted model. I tried to find a video >> of this male robin attack something red behavior in his territory on the >> web but could not. The closest I found is a male robin attacking a "loon >> suncatcher," whatever that means. See >> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8465646756274013902&q=robin+attac >> k+territory&total=3&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 . It >> appears to be a piece of colored glass with a loon image on it. I can't >> see if there is any red in the glass. The male robin appears to be >> attacking the loon picture in the glass. >> >> To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ >> >> >> >> > > > > ---------------------- > Chris Sherwin > Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare > Division Clinical Veterinary Science > University of Bristol > Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > Phone 0117 928 9486 > Subject: Re: Observational Learning From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 19:05:34 +0000 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Jay, Yes, I understand perfectly what you are trying to comminicate. However, I provided an example where the defensive behaviour of another avian species is considerably more complex. My example shows complex learning and variable, context-specific responses. I do not wish to be patronising to other members of this list, but having been on it for over a decade, I am well aware many of them might not be familiar with avian behaviour. I would hate them to have the take-home message that territory defence in all birds is dependent on a bunch of painted feathers. Chris --On 05 February 2008 11:41 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: > Hello Chris, > > Regarding your comments below, the red painted feathers on a stick are > just a model which a male robin in a territory will attack. The model > represents enough features of a real male robin to show what the actual > releasing stimulus is. That is a classic method of ethological research. > Tinbergen's early work on the herring gull chicks who pecked at red spots > on little wooden bills he made were just to show that the red dot on the > bill of the mother herring gull was what the baby bird was really > attending to and what caused it to open its mouth. They did not peck if > he painted the dots blue. Same with the classic Tinbergen experiments on > the 3-spined stickleback where he showed that a little piece of cigar > shaped wood with a red underside would cause a male 3-spined stickleback > to attack it if it was brought into the male's territory. Models in > ethology are essential to be able to figure out what feature of a > stimulus is actually attended to by an individual and cause the > individual to act with a specific structurally defined, mood dependent, > coordinated motor pattern. Good models are not out of the ordinary. They > are in fact abstractions of the ordinary. > > Regards, > Jay R Feierman > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and > Husbandry" > To: "Jay R. Feierman" ; > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 11:26 AM > Subject: Re: Observational Learning > > >> Jay, >> I can't but help wonder what is the motivation behind discussing a >> highly simplistic anomalous response as if this is representative of >> all, or a large, number of animals. After all, my mum once started >> asking directions from a cardboard cut-out petrol pump >> attendant!!!....but I would not suggest that this is the way in which >> humans carry out their normal means of communication. >> >> When we see such anomalous behaviours in animals, such as the robin >> attacking red painted feathers (or birds trying to hatch oversize eggs, >> animals getting addicted to drugs, drinking saccharine, etc), it is >> usually because the experimenter has interfered with the rules-of-thumb >> of the behaviour and presented a stimulus for which the animal has not >> evolved/learnt an appropriate response. >> >> Chris >> >> --On 01 February 2008 11:57 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Chris Sherwin: However, territory defence by birds can be considerably >>> more complex than that. Some birds will modify the intensity of their >>> defence songs in according to who the intruder is and where the >>> intrusion occurs. If the intruder is a neighbour in a usual place on >>> the territory boundary, the defender sings far less vigorously >>> (presumably to conserve energy and time) than if the intruder is >>> unfamiliar , or in an unexpected place. A little more sophisticated >>> than simply singing at a painted model.... >>> >>> Jay R. Feierman: My understanding is that a male robin in a territory >>> will attack another male robin who comes into his territory. There have >>> been ethological experiments in which the male robin will also attack a >>> stick upon which a number of red painted feathers have been attached has >>> also been attacked when it was brought into a male robin's territory. I >>> was not talking about singing at a painted model. I tried to find a >>> video of this male robin attack something red behavior in his territory >>> on the web but could not. The closest I found is a male robin attacking >>> a "loon suncatcher," whatever that means. See >>> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8465646756274013902&q=robin+att >>> ac k+territory&total=3&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 . It >>> appears to be a piece of colored glass with a loon image on it. I can't >>> see if there is any red in the glass. The male robin appears to be >>> attacking the loon picture in the glass. >>> >>> To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to >>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> Chris Sherwin >> Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare >> Division Clinical Veterinary Science >> University of Bristol >> Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk >> Phone 0117 928 9486 >> > > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: imprinting in foals From: Cheryl Kolus Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:47:48 -0700 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hello all. In light of the recent discussions, thought some of you might be interested in this. Cheryl K. Colorado, USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=11259&WT.mc_id=news Hands Off: New Research on Impact of Human Intervention on Foal Behavior by: Christa Lesté-Lasserre February 02 2008, Article # 11259 Human interaction with foals at a critical early developmental age appears to be a stressor, whereas positive human interaction with the dam creates a strong model for the observing foal, according to a series of ongoing research projects at the University of Rennes in northwestern France. The team's new findings are raising questions about the 15-year-old desensitization technique of imprinting and the common practice of guided suckling, according to Séverine Henry, PhD, professor of animal behavior at the university and co-author of the studies. Imprinting involves human handling of newborn foals in the first hour after birth. In guided suckling, foals are hand-led to their dam's teats within that same hour. Since 2004, the team of behavioral biologists has been leading comparative studies that focus on the short- and long-term consequences of various human intervention practices in the immediate postnatal period on foal behavior. "Our most recent study has focused entirely on imprinting techniques, and what we found was that it really wasn't very effective," Henry said. The results, parts of which were published in Developmental Psychobiology and the Journal of Comparative Psychology, reveal that foals handled by humans during the first hours following birth remained closer to their dams and appeared to be more cautious about approaching humans at several weeks and months of age than foals in a control group that had not been handled. Human-handled foals were also less social with other foals and less likely to explore their surroundings or separate from their mothers, even at six months of age, Henry said. By contrast, foals that had not been handled directly, but had witnessed gentle human handling of their dams, were more likely to trust humans, the studies showed. "What we have discovered is that everything that the foals experience very, very young is something that is then fixed into their memory over the long term," Henry said. "It's evident that we're dealing with a period which is very important for their (behavioral) development." Henry explained that because horses show affection differently from humans and other domestic animals, using less physical interaction, the early human contact is unnatural and could be perceived as negative. "It seems that the best way to establish confidence with a new foal is through good contact with its mother," said Henry. "Clearly, to create a positive horse-human relationship, it's not a good idea to intervene in the natural progression of postnatal events, nor in the early mare/foal relationship." The team plans to continue following the 16 study and control foals to further investigate the effects of early human handling over the long term. Subject: Fw: Observational learning From: peterhaskins Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:07:12 +1100 To: ethology ----- Original Message ----- From: "peterhaskins" To: "Peter Kabai" Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: Re: Observational learning >> So there are many factors affecting the success of plants and if you consider the most important factors you pretty soon get to strategies, decisions etc. and at the end kids will have a pretty good insight into evolutionary theory.> > Ah! But! There are NO strategies and NO decisions. There are no biological possibilities that I can see that any individual can choose what nature gives it. An animal behaves in a certain way because the DNA it has inherited from its ancestors affects its behaviour. Animals do not choose, they behave as they are programmed to behave. The question of 'free-will' where an individual does have a choice about what it does is severely challenged by identical twin studies. With my own family (children, nieces, nephews, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, parent and grandparents, as well as from observation of dogs and chickens that I have bred I remain truly amazed at just how much behaviour is hereditary. Does one of my bitches appear from around the front of the house instead of coming straight back like the other dogs when she's called, feigning innocence of fence running ,because she chooses to? Probably not, because her father did that too, and he died when she was only a few weeks old. (With children the examples are even more astounding.) Even with Observational Learning, the ability to learn from observation is wired into the genes. No choice at all, just the luck of the draw. Does a peacock choose to have long tail feathers or is he just lucky? Does a baby human girl choose to be born blonde because 'gentlemen prefer blondes'? Did the Australian aborigines choose to have dark skin, or did the fair-skinned people die early from sun cancers and such like? (Just as we blonde blue-eyed Caucasian Australians are doing today!) Does a Bernese Mountain dog choose to have perfectly symmetrical markings because it chose them, it is he just lucky? Certainly if he has unsymmetrical marking he would not have been used as stud dog. Did my Nephew choose to be Autistic or is he just plain unlucky? I would say that if anyone believes that there are any strategies or decisions (or wants) involved in evolution then they do NOT have a firm grasp of evolutionary theory OR of genetics. (Or biology in general, for that matter. Or probability theory.) A good read on evolution in action is : "The Beak of the Finch: Evolution in Real Time" Jonathan Weiner, 1995 Or try "Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History" for a palaentological perspective. (And talking of which I have no belief at all in "intelligent design" -- this belongs with mythology, not science.) Sincerely, Jenny H PS Another pet hate of mine is the American expression "to go extinct". (Active voice) Those silly, willful species that chose to go extinct! Far, far better the English (which is unfortunately disappearing) "to BECOME extinct". (Passive voice) I'm sure that there was no intent at all on the organisms parts. Subject: Re: Fw: Observational learning From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 13:00:15 +0000 To: peterhaskins , ethology Jenny, Do you really believe that animals '...do not choose'? This is totally against many of the modern principles used to investigate animal behaviour such as motivation theory, preference tests, decision making, and individual strategies. Are you suggesting that animals are all automatons and are totally devoid of the ability to make conscious decisions? Chris --On 06 February 2008 19:07 +1100 peterhaskins wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "peterhaskins" > > To: "Peter Kabai" > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 7:01 PM > Subject: Re: Observational learning > > >>> So there are many factors affecting the success of plants and if you >>> consider the most important factors you pretty soon get to strategies, >>> decisions etc. and at the end kids will have a pretty good insight into >>> evolutionary theory.> >> > Ah! But! > > There are NO strategies and NO decisions. There are no biological > possibilities that I can see that any individual can choose what nature > gives it. > > An animal behaves in a certain way because the DNA it has inherited from > its ancestors affects its behaviour. > Animals do not choose, they behave as they are programmed to behave. > The question of 'free-will' where an individual does have a choice about > what it does is severely challenged by identical twin studies. > > With my own family (children, nieces, nephews, sisters, brothers, > aunts, uncles, parent and grandparents, as well as from observation of > dogs and chickens that I have bred I remain truly amazed at just how > much behaviour is hereditary. Does one of my bitches appear from around > the front of the house instead of coming straight back like the other > dogs when she's called, feigning innocence of fence running ,because she > chooses to? Probably not, because her father did that too, and he died > when she was only a few weeks old. (With children the examples are even > more astounding.) > > Even with Observational Learning, the ability to learn from observation > is wired into the genes. No choice at all, just the luck of the draw. > Does a peacock choose to have long tail feathers or is he just lucky? > Does a baby human girl choose to be born blonde because 'gentlemen prefer > blondes'? > Did the Australian aborigines choose to have dark skin, or did the > fair-skinned people die early from sun cancers and such like? (Just as > we blonde blue-eyed Caucasian Australians are doing today!) > Does a Bernese Mountain dog choose to have perfectly symmetrical markings > because it chose them, it is he just lucky? Certainly if he has > unsymmetrical marking he would not have been used as stud dog. > Did my Nephew choose to be Autistic or is he just plain unlucky? > > I would say that if anyone believes that there are any strategies or > decisions (or wants) involved in evolution then they do NOT have a firm > grasp of evolutionary theory OR of genetics. (Or biology in general, > for that matter. Or probability theory.) A good read on evolution in > action is : > "The Beak of the Finch: Evolution in Real Time" Jonathan Weiner, 1995 > Or try > "Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History" for a > palaentological perspective. > > (And talking of which I have no belief at all in "intelligent design" -- > this belongs with mythology, not science.) > > Sincerely, > > Jenny H > > PS Another pet hate of mine is the American expression "to go extinct". > (Active voice) Those silly, willful species that chose to go extinct! > > Far, far better the English (which is unfortunately disappearing) "to > BECOME extinct". (Passive voice) I'm sure that there was no intent at all > on the organisms parts. > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: Fw: Observational learning From: Peter Kabai Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 14:23:30 +0100 To: peterhaskins CC: ethology Dear Jenny, at the level of mechanism you are more or less right (not the full story :-) . At other levels - function, evolution - mechanism is considered as constraint and has not much explanatory value. So this is just another way (level) to look at things. Basically in game theory models you analyse strategies to define Evolutionary Stable Strategies, in optimalization models optimal decisions are studied. You can choose to incorporate basic population genetics into such models or decide not to. You can set a strategy so that it would be determined completely by genes, or be independent of genes. In this line of research we are interested in the evolution of strategies rather than in the genes which may enable them to be expressed. Regarding observational learning the notion "the ability to learn from observation is wired into the genes" has not much predictive value. Wired into the genes of every species? Wired for any task? If so, why is it so difficult to demonstrate in most species? From an other viewpoint you can think about tasks an abstract bird should solve to survive and reproduce and think about ways (strategies) to solve them. Edible or harmful, predator or neutral, conspecific or not? Discrimination between those is vital. How should our bird solve such tasks? Observational learning (observing parents, or any individual?), imitation, social facilitation etc down to pre-wired information. Now you change the ecological - social circumstances and test what strategy works best to each task. Extremes are easy: species living in wide areas and not specializing to a single food type are better off if learn they about food, even if it is risky and costly. However, as a one day old quail chick would be happy to be pre-wired to avoid red objects? Most red insects are harmful, however, red fruits are palatable. There is a trade-off here. So here we are discussing strategies (ways to get information about food) for solving a task. You can also think about the cost and benefit for a chick to peck at a red insect. Here you analyse decisions. These are important consideration when we build predictive models for the evolution of behaviour. Consciousness, free will are not considered. If "There are NO strategies and NO decisions" there is no Evolutionary Stable Strategy, Optimal Decision, Evolutionary Innovation.... And still at another level no Cognitive Ethology, Evolutionary Psychology etc. Best wishes, Peter On 06/02/2008, peterhaskins wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "peterhaskins" > > To: "Peter Kabai" > > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 7:01 PM > > Subject: Re: Observational learning > > > > >>> > >> So there are many factors affecting the success of plants and if you >>> > >> consider the most important factors you pretty soon get to strategies, >>> > >> decisions etc. and at the end kids will have a pretty good insight into >>> > >> evolutionary theory.> >> > > > > Ah! But! > > > > There are NO strategies and NO decisions. There are no biological > > possibilities that I can see that any individual can choose what nature > > gives it. > > > > An animal behaves in a certain way because the DNA it has inherited from > > its ancestors affects its behaviour. > > Animals do not choose, they behave as they are programmed to behave. The > > question of 'free-will' where an individual does have a choice about what > > it does is severely challenged by identical twin studies. > > > > With my own family (children, nieces, nephews, sisters, brothers, aunts, > > uncles, parent and grandparents, as well as from observation of dogs and > > chickens that I have bred I remain truly amazed at just how much behaviour > > is hereditary. Does one of my bitches appear from around the front of the > > house instead of coming straight back like the other dogs when she's called, > > feigning innocence of fence running ,because she chooses to? Probably not, > > because her father did that too, and he died when she was only a few weeks > > old. (With children the examples are even more astounding.) > > > > Even with Observational Learning, the ability to learn from observation is > > wired into the genes. No choice at all, just the luck of the draw. > > Does a peacock choose to have long tail feathers or is he just lucky? > > Does a baby human girl choose to be born blonde because 'gentlemen prefer > > blondes'? > > Did the Australian aborigines choose to have dark skin, or did the > > fair-skinned people die early from sun cancers and such like? (Just as we > > blonde blue-eyed Caucasian Australians are doing today!) > > Does a Bernese Mountain dog choose to have perfectly symmetrical markings > > because it chose them, it is he just lucky? Certainly if he has > > unsymmetrical marking he would not have been used as stud dog. > > Did my Nephew choose to be Autistic or is he just plain unlucky? > > > > I would say that if anyone believes that there are any strategies or > > decisions (or wants) involved in evolution then they do NOT have a firm > > grasp of evolutionary theory OR of genetics. (Or biology in general, for > > that matter. Or probability theory.) A good read on evolution in action is > > : > > "The Beak of the Finch: Evolution in Real Time" Jonathan Weiner, 1995 > > Or try > > "Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History" for a > > palaentological perspective. > > > > (And talking of which I have no belief at all in "intelligent design" -- > > this belongs with mythology, not science.) > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Jenny H > > > > PS Another pet hate of mine is the American expression "to go extinct". > > (Active voice) Those silly, willful species that chose to go extinct! > > > > Far, far better the English (which is unfortunately disappearing) "to BECOME > > extinct". (Passive voice) I'm sure that there was no intent at all on the > > organisms parts. > > > > -- Peter Kabai, PhD Associate Professor Dept Ecology, Szent Istvan University http://www.behav.org Subject: Re: Fw: Observational learning From: peterhaskins Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:44:40 +1100 To: ethology > Do you really believe that animals '...do not choose'? This is totally against many of the modern principles used to investigate animal behaviour such as motivation theory, preference tests, decision making, and individual strategies. Are you suggesting that animals are all automatons and are totally devoid of the ability to make conscious decisions? > Chris > Basically in game theory models you analyse strategies to define Evolutionary Stable Strategies, in optimalization models optimal decisions are studied. You can choose to incorporate basic population genetics into such models or decide not to. You can set a strategy so that it would be determined completely by genes, or be independent of genes. In this line of research we are interested in the evolution of strategies rather than in the genes which may enable them to be expressed. >Peter I think that there is a lot of confusion between us. We seem to have a different understanding of the meaning of key words in our arguments. "Strategy" to me means a conscious decision to behave in a certain way. In my English Dictionary (Chambers) 'strategy' is defined as 'artifice or finesse.' To me the use of such terms is committing the sin of anthropomorphising 'nature'. If we are not supposed to 'anthropomorphise animals and describe their behaviour in such terms, then surely it is a greater sin to anthropomorphise nature where whatever happens is under no controls except of natural laws (of chemistry, physics) so that a species has no more intent of 'strategy' towards survival than a leaf has to be blown into a bus shelter. Individual animals (though ,I don't believe, plants) certainly can have strategies but, except for the propensity to make such decisions, these strategies cannot become part of the DNA of their species. As far as an individual animal's 'choice' goes, that ventures into the realms of philosophy and religion. I might choose to have a coffee this morning, I might choose to not watch a certain TV show, but identical twin studies have shown remarkable similarities with regard to job 'choice', partner 'choice', favourite foods, which finger they suck as babies, whether or not they bite their nails, and much, much more regardless of whether they were reared together or never knew each other from birth. Then it has now been found that whether or not a person becomes abusive from being abused as a child, is genetically controlled. So those who choose to not abuse their own children or spouses after an abusive childhood are merely lucky that they did not inherit the genes to give them this tendency :-( It makes you wonder really whether we really do have any choice at all in what we do on the macro scale. To me, the importance of 'free choice" is that I have freedom to follow my own innate inclinations rather than being forced by some outside agency to go against my (probably innate, ie genetic) inclination. Maybe it is the Asperger's aspect of me (DNA, no choice involved :-) but I do strongly feel that the incorrect use of terms which imply (to the non-cognoscenti) intention on the part of evolution to be extremely regrettable. Those of you who work in the Ivory Towers of Academia might not be affected by it, but I can assure you all that in the general society the majority of non-scientifically educated people take such talk literally. No wonder there ar still so many people insisting on 'intelligent design' -- after all that is what 'want', 'strategy', and 'choice' imply. It is merely usage of the terms to which I object, and I am surprised that my objection has given rise to such an argument. I will be away for a fortnight or more so will not be able to continue this discussion -- probably a good thing, let it die a natural death :-) Cheers, Jenny H Whose strength of feeling re this use of terminology is probably coloured by the fact that she was an 'unwanted daughter' and told throughout her childhood that it was all her fault as she "chose to be a girl instead of a boy" :-( Subject: Re: Observational learning From: Simon Gadbois Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:29:36 -0400 To: ethology On 6-Feb-08, at 6:44 PM, peterhaskins wrote: > We seem to have a different understanding of the meaning of key words in our arguments. > "Strategy" to me means a conscious decision to behave in a certain way. In my English Dictionary (Chambers) 'strategy' is defined as 'artifice or finesse.' > To me the use of such terms is committing the sin of anthropomorphising 'nature'. The term "Strategies" as used by behavioural ecologists does not have this anthropomorphizing connotation at all. Animal ethologists are actually interested in the tactics, i.e., the means to the strategies. > If we are not supposed to 'anthropomorphise animals and describe their behaviour in such terms, then surely it is a greater sin to anthropomorphise nature where whatever happens is under no controls except of natural laws (of chemistry, physics) so that a species has no more intent of 'strategy' towards survival than a leaf has to be blown into a bus shelter. Let's not create a hurricane in a glass of water. Again, the term used by behavioural ecologists does not all suggest individual cognitive processing or decision-making. It is a the species level that those strategies are expressed. It is not, in behavioural ecology, a cognitive term. > Individual animals (though ,I don't believe, plants) certainly can have strategies but, except for the propensity to make such decisions, these strategies cannot become part of the DNA of their species. Not the way you seem to define strategy, no. But the dominance hierarchy of wolves is certainly not all acquired behaviour. There is a predisposition to aggregate in semi-permanent groups of genetically related individuals with a set of social rules. For a human spin on this, I suggest Ray Jackendoff's "Patterns in the Mind: Language and Human Nature" The neuropsychologist Michael Gazzaniga has similar ideas. > As far as an individual animal's 'choice' goes, that ventures into the realms of philosophy and religion. > I might choose to have a coffee this morning, I might choose to not watch a certain TV show, but identical twin studies have shown remarkable similarities with regard to job 'choice', partner 'choice', favourite foods, which finger they suck as babies, whether or not they bite their nails, and much, much more regardless of whether they were reared together or never knew each other from birth. It is clear now that you guys are arguing at a completely different level. You are not working with the same concept. > Maybe it is the Asperger's aspect of me (DNA, no choice involved :-) but I do strongly feel that the incorrect use of terms which imply (to the non-cognoscenti) intention on the part of evolution to be extremely regrettable. O.k., maybe. But ethology, behavioural ecology, psychology, etc, all have their lingo. When I was a biology/psychology student, the first time I heard the term "strategy" in a behavioural ecology class, I was thinking in cognitive psychology terms, a field with a more intuitive definition of "strategy". But when I talk about stress, it does mean the same thing to me, from a behavioural endocrinology perspective, than it does for an engineer (engineering interestingly, where the term came from). Simon Gadbois ~~~~~~ Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Department of Psychology / Neuroscience Institute / Neuroscience Program Life Sciences Centre 1355 Oxford Street Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia B3H 4J1, Canada Canid ethology & fish neuroethology http://web.mac.com/ysg/ ~~~~~~ Subject: Methods: group sizes and interactions From: sabine.gebhardt@bvet.admin.ch Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:34:09 +0100 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: sylvia.graf@bvet.admin.ch Dear all: Something else besides learning: We have a problem with the analyses of agonistic interactions in groups of rabbits. Rabbits were kept in groups of 5, 6, or 7 individuals and the number of agonistic interactions were counted under different treatments. How can we adjust for group size? We don't assume a linear relationship between group size and number of agonistic interactions. To make things worse group sizes were not constant since some animals died during the experiment. In the beginning we had groups of 7 or 6 and in some groups 1 or 2 animals died. In a repeated analysis different group sizes would apply to different times of measurement. Has anyone dealt with similar problems? Any idea what we should do? Cheers, Sabine Gebhardt Zentrum für tiergerechte Haltung, Geflügel und Kaninchen (ZTHZ) Centre for proper housing of poultry and rabbits (ZTHZ) Aussenstelle des Bundesamt für Veterinärwesen Federal veterinary office FVO Burgerweg 22, CH-3052 Zollikofen Switzerland Tel. +41 (0)31 915 3513, Fax +41 (0)31 915 3514 sabine.gebhardt@bvet.admin.ch http://www.bvet.admin.ch Subject: human-dog and dog ethology url From: Edward Korber Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:09:02 -0500 To: ethology CC: Edward Korber Jay Feierman was kind enough to share this url on another list: A Bibliography of human-dog and dog ethology from Department of Ethology, Eötvös University and Comparative Ethology Research Group, HAS, Budapest, Hungary. All of the references are in English and some are downloadable. Go to http://etologia.aitia.ai/main.php?folderID=945 . Subject: cat research on use of covered litter boxes From: catbehavior@cox.net Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:05:19 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I am seeking research studies that have examined litter box preference based on box type. Specifically as it relates to the use of covered verses open litter boxes. I know the reasons why a cat would choose the open versions, I just can't seem to find any scientific studies that have examined this. I have found several that have looked at substrate preference, patterns of use, and and other related issues such as location. However, if anyone can direct me to studies examining box type preference, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Kitty Subject: child-dog studies From: "longd@siu.edu" Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:55:16 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Does anyone know of an applied study regarding teaching or assessing how children care for and interact with their OWN pet dogs? I am aware of anecdotal accounts in the literature however they all deal with a specially selected shelter dog or certified therapy dog. Dana Long Southern IL University Behavior Analysis and Rehabilitation Subject: Mimetic desire From: joseph stookey Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:38:46 -0600 To: applied-ethology network Hi Everyone, Below is a question by brother recently sent me. He works with aspects of "Peace" among nations and peoples and this topic came up. Would anyone care to respond in regards to whether this theory relates to animal behaviour? Any examples? Have you ever heard of "mimetic desire" (as expounded by Rene Girard and Gil Baile)? In light of such theories as Baile's "Violence Unveiled", I was wondering if animals portray anything like this "mimetic desire" and "envy" to get something the others have, simply because the other has it! Something like a child suddenly wanting the toy that was of no interest until the other began to play with it! Cheers, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Professor of Applied Ethology Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: Re: Mimetic desire From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:57:26 -0700 To: applied-ethology network Hello Joe, I can give an example of something which may be similar, although I question if the term "mimetic desire" is the best way to characterize it. I have two dogs. One is 2 years old and the other is 16 years old. The 2 year old is socially dominant to the 16 year old. They are both neutered males. They are quite competitive with one another for my attention. If the 2 year old dog is just lying down and the 16 year old dog comes over to me for me to pat him, the younger dog immediately will get up and come over to me and insert himself between the older dog and me and try to get me to pet him. I see myself as a resource and the two dogs compete over me. However, I was of no real interest to the younger dog at the moment until the older dog came over to me. I suspect that much of what is called "mimetic desire" is similar in other circumstances as well. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: joseph stookey To: applied-ethology network Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:38 AM Subject: Mimetic desire Hi Everyone, Below is a question by brother recently sent me. He works with aspects of "Peace" among nations and peoples and this topic came up. Would anyone care to respond in regards to whether this theory relates to animal behaviour? Any examples? Have you ever heard of "mimetic desire" (as expounded by Rene Girard and Gil Baile)? In light of such theories as Baile's "Violence Unveiled", I was wondering if animals portray anything like this "mimetic desire" and "envy" to get something the others have, simply because the other has it! Something like a child suddenly wanting the toy that was of no interest until the other began to play with it! Cheers, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Professor of Applied Ethology Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: RE: Mimetic desire From: Sue Bowers Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:04:35 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I can only speak anecdotally of course, but we see this regularly with our canines. My lazy old male Solo will let his food sit around all day, until I get home and let another dog in--then he runs over and lays on the bowl eating, and makes over it like it's the tastiest thing on earth. My little female Nali will get in a funk and ignore food (and I mean, GOOD food, like steak or cooked chicken) until I pick it up & pretend *I* am eating it; then she'll finally eat. When we go to my dad's, I pretty much have to "pretend' to eat each piece in order to feed her! Lutro will come in and pick up his favourite toy, which has been of zero interest to everyone else...and soon, Solo is either trying to dominate him into giving it up, or will wait until Lutro walks away for a second and then take it for himself. If Lutro hadn't picked it up first, he would *never* bother with that toy. Or any other toy, he is not much for toys. Everyone but Shasta could care less about those pork hide rolls, but if Shasta's got one, EVERYONE wants one. Lutro will find a hiding place for his, Nali will eat it just because Shasta is eating his, and Solo will just lay on his for hours, until he is the ONLY one with a roll, and even then he won't eat it--he just doesn't want anyone else to get it. Ono or Lutro will pick up a scrap of deerhide out in the yard, shake it at the others (nyah nyah), and run off with it...and then everybody gets involved, trying to get it away from the initiator. It's one of the little games they make up. Same goes for a bone or toy that someone dug up--suddenly it's the new, hot thing to have. Whoever's got it will make a big show of having it, will lay on it awhile while everyone else circles enviously, will eventually *hide* it...and often, some wiseguy will wait until the one who hid it walks away or is distracted, and then run over and dig it up for himself. I'm sure I could think of more examples. ;) It's as though the food or object has no *inherent* value, but rather has value because *others* have placed that upon it. (No wonder we call them "the Kids"...or "the brats", lol.) ~Sue! From: joseph stookey [mailto:joseph.stookey@usask.ca] Have you ever heard of "mimetic desire" (as expounded by Rene Girard and Gil Baile)? In light of such theories as Baile's "Violence Unveiled", I was wondering if animals portray anything like this "mimetic desire" and "envy" to get something the others have, simply because the other has it! Something like a child suddenly wanting the toy that was of no interest until the other began to play with it! Cheers, Joe Subject: Re: Mimetic desire From: Anna Olsson Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 18:07:54 +0000 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca The situation Jay describes below is one I've observed several times with companion animals (cats and also horses). As I'm not the same systematic data collector when I interact with companion animals as when I observe experimental animals, I've never been quite sure that I'm not overinterpreting events which may accidentally occur, though. Regards, Anna *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 12-02-2008 at 10:57 Jay R. Feierman wrote: > >Hello Joe, > > > >I can give an example of something which may be similar, although I > >question if the term "mimetic desire" is the best way to characterize it. > >I have two dogs. One is 2 years old and the other is 16 years old. The 2 > >year old is socially dominant to the 16 year old. They are both neutered > >males. They are quite competitive with one another for my attention. If > >the 2 year old dog is just lying down and the 16 year old dog comes over > >to me for me to pat him, the younger dog immediately will get up and come > >over to me and insert himself between the older dog and me and try to get > >me to pet him. I see myself as a resource and the two dogs compete over > >me. However, I was of no real interest to the younger dog at the moment > >until the older dog came over to me. I suspect that much of what is called > >"mimetic desire" is similar in other circumstances as well. > > > >Regards, > >Jay R. Feierman > >Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group > >http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: joseph stookey > > To: applied-ethology network > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:38 AM > > Subject: Mimetic desire > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Below is a question by brother recently sent me. He works with aspects > >of "Peace" among nations and peoples and this topic came up. Would anyone > >care to respond in regards to whether this theory relates to animal > >behaviour? Any examples? > > > > Have you ever heard of "mimetic desire" (as expounded by Rene Girard and > >Gil Baile)? In light of such theories as Baile's "Violence Unveiled", I > >was wondering if animals portray anything like this "mimetic desire" and > >"envy" to get something the others have, simply because the other has it! > >Something like a child suddenly wanting the toy that was of no interest > >until the other began to play with it! > > > > Cheers, > > > > Joe > > > >-- > >Joseph M. Stookey > >Professor of Applied Ethology > >Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences > >Western College of Veterinary Medicine > >University of Saskatchewan > >52 Campus Drive > >Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > >Canada S7N 5B4 > > > >Tel 306-966-7154 > >Fax 306-966-7159 Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Laboratory Animal Science group http://www.ibmc.up.pt http://ethos.no.sapo.pt Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 Subject: RE: Mimetic desire From: fraidycat@bellsouth.net Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 18:47:25 +0000 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sue and Jay just described our gang. We have four cats. It's not much different. Maybe it's the Scottish Fold breed, I don't know. If one sees another has something, they want it, but they weren't interested before that point. If one isn't interested in food, I pretend to eat it and then they're interested. If one is getting love and brushing, the other sticks their nose in the way. I have to mention that when I was volunteering at a local tiger/big cat preserve, it was also similar between those animals. Makes me wonder sometimes just how far removed we are from them. Kids, brats....it's all relative. LOL Judi Subject: Re: Mimetic desire From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:25:06 +0000 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , applied-ethology network Maybe I do not fully understand the term 'mimetic desire', but I do not understand why Jay's example and others are not what we usually refer to in applied animal ethology as 'social facilitation'. --On 12 February 2008 10:57 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: > > Hello Joe, > > I can give an example of something which may be similar, although I > question if the term "mimetic desire" is the best way to characterize it. > I have two dogs. One is 2 years old and the other is 16 years old. The 2 > year old is socially dominant to the 16 year old. They are both neutered > males. They are quite competitive with one another for my attention. If > the 2 year old dog is just lying down and the 16 year old dog comes over > to me for me to pat him, the younger dog immediately will get up and come > over to me and insert himself between the older dog and me and try to get > me to pet him. I see myself as a resource and the two dogs compete over > me. However, I was of no real interest to the younger dog at the moment > until the older dog came over to me. I suspect that much of what is > called "mimetic desire" is similar in other circumstances as well. > > Regards, > Jay R. Feierman > Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: joseph stookey > To: applied-ethology network > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:38 AM > Subject: Mimetic desire > > Hi Everyone, > > Below is a question by brother recently sent me. He works with aspects > of "Peace" among nations and peoples and this topic came up. Would > anyone care to respond in regards to whether this theory relates to > animal behaviour? Any examples? > > Have you ever heard of "mimetic desire" (as expounded by Rene Girard and > Gil Baile)? In light of such theories as Baile's "Violence Unveiled", I > was wondering if animals portray anything like this "mimetic desire" and > "envy" to get something the others have, simply because the other has it! > Something like a child suddenly wanting the toy that was of no interest > until the other began to play with it! > > Cheers, > > Joe > > -- > Joseph M. Stookey > Professor of Applied Ethology > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > University of Saskatchewan > 52 Campus Drive > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > Canada S7N 5B4 > > Tel 306-966-7154 > Fax 306-966-7159 > > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: Mimetic desire From: gflannigan@triad.rr.com Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:10:52 -0500 To: applied-ethology network Mimetic desire may we be synonymous with social facilitation. Mimetic means copying or imitating another's behavior so the two could be the same. However, I see it as a subset of social facilitation. I took a slightly different interpretation from Joe's description. Joe said that mimetic desire was wanting something because another showed interest in it (ie. taking the item?). For me, social facilitation is a much broader term. For instance, a member of the group eats his own food because others are eating ( ie. not taking the food that the social member is eating). Gerry ---- "CM Sherwin wrote: > > Maybe I do not fully understand the term 'mimetic desire', but I do not > > understand why Jay's example and others are not what we usually refer to in > > applied animal ethology as 'social facilitation'. > > > > > > --On 12 February 2008 10:57 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" > > wrote: > > >> > > >> > > Hello Joe, >> > > >> > > I can give an example of something which may be similar, although I >> > > question if the term "mimetic desire" is the best way to characterize it. >> > > I have two dogs. One is 2 years old and the other is 16 years old. The 2 >> > > year old is socially dominant to the 16 year old. They are both neutered >> > > males. They are quite competitive with one another for my attention. If >> > > the 2 year old dog is just lying down and the 16 year old dog comes over >> > > to me for me to pat him, the younger dog immediately will get up and come >> > > over to me and insert himself between the older dog and me and try to get >> > > me to pet him. I see myself as a resource and the two dogs compete over >> > > me. However, I was of no real interest to the younger dog at the moment >> > > until the older dog came over to me. I suspect that much of what is >> > > called "mimetic desire" is similar in other circumstances as well. >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > Jay R. Feierman >> > > Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group >> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ >> > > >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: joseph stookey >> > > To: applied-ethology network >> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:38 AM >> > > Subject: Mimetic desire >> > > >> > > Hi Everyone, >> > > >> > > Below is a question by brother recently sent me. He works with aspects >> > > of "Peace" among nations and peoples and this topic came up. Would >> > > anyone care to respond in regards to whether this theory relates to >> > > animal behaviour? Any examples? >> > > >> > > Have you ever heard of "mimetic desire" (as expounded by Rene Girard and >> > > Gil Baile)? In light of such theories as Baile's "Violence Unveiled", I >> > > was wondering if animals portray anything like this "mimetic desire" and >> > > "envy" to get something the others have, simply because the other has it! >> > > Something like a child suddenly wanting the toy that was of no interest >> > > until the other began to play with it! >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > >> > > Joe >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Joseph M. Stookey >> > > Professor of Applied Ethology >> > > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences >> > > Western College of Veterinary Medicine >> > > University of Saskatchewan >> > > 52 Campus Drive >> > > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan >> > > Canada S7N 5B4 >> > > >> > > Tel 306-966-7154 >> > > Fax 306-966-7159 >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > Chris Sherwin > > Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare > > Division Clinical Veterinary Science > > University of Bristol > > Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > Phone 0117 928 9486 -- Gerrard Flannigan DVM MSc. DACVB gflannigan@triad.rr.com Subject: Re: Mimetic desire From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:15:22 +0000 To: gflannigan@triad.rr.com, applied-ethology network Hi Gerry, Precisely that. I looked up 'mimetic desire' on Wikepedia and the desire for an 'object' seems instrumental to its definition, but is 'food' or 'being petted' an 'object'. Having said this, looking up 'social facilitation' on Wikepedia sent me into a total head-spin about how this relates to its traditional use in animal ethology! --On 13 February 2008 08:10 -0500 gflannigan@triad.rr.com wrote: > Mimetic desire may we be synonymous with social facilitation. Mimetic > means copying or imitating another's behavior so the two could be the > same. However, I see it as a subset of social facilitation. I took a > slightly different interpretation from Joe's description. Joe said that > mimetic desire was wanting something because another showed interest in > it (ie. taking the item?). For me, social facilitation is a much broader > term. For instance, a member of the group eats his own food because > others are eating ( ie. not taking the food that the social member is > eating). Gerry > > ---- "CM Sherwin wrote: >> Maybe I do not fully understand the term 'mimetic desire', but I do not >> understand why Jay's example and others are not what we usually refer to >> in applied animal ethology as 'social facilitation'. >> >> >> --On 12 February 2008 10:57 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" >> wrote: >> >> > >> > Hello Joe, >> > >> > I can give an example of something which may be similar, although I >> > question if the term "mimetic desire" is the best way to characterize >> > it. I have two dogs. One is 2 years old and the other is 16 years old. >> > The 2 year old is socially dominant to the 16 year old. They are both >> > neutered males. They are quite competitive with one another for my >> > attention. If the 2 year old dog is just lying down and the 16 year >> > old dog comes over to me for me to pat him, the younger dog >> > immediately will get up and come over to me and insert himself between >> > the older dog and me and try to get me to pet him. I see myself as a >> > resource and the two dogs compete over me. However, I was of no real >> > interest to the younger dog at the moment until the older dog came >> > over to me. I suspect that much of what is called "mimetic desire" is >> > similar in other circumstances as well. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Jay R. Feierman >> > Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group >> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: joseph stookey >> > To: applied-ethology network >> > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:38 AM >> > Subject: Mimetic desire >> > >> > Hi Everyone, >> > >> > Below is a question by brother recently sent me. He works with aspects >> > of "Peace" among nations and peoples and this topic came up. Would >> > anyone care to respond in regards to whether this theory relates to >> > animal behaviour? Any examples? >> > >> > Have you ever heard of "mimetic desire" (as expounded by Rene Girard >> > and Gil Baile)? In light of such theories as Baile's "Violence >> > Unveiled", I was wondering if animals portray anything like this >> > "mimetic desire" and "envy" to get something the others have, simply >> > because the other has it! Something like a child suddenly wanting the >> > toy that was of no interest until the other began to play with it! >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > Joe >> > >> > -- >> > Joseph M. Stookey >> > Professor of Applied Ethology >> > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences >> > Western College of Veterinary Medicine >> > University of Saskatchewan >> > 52 Campus Drive >> > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan >> > Canada S7N 5B4 >> > >> > Tel 306-966-7154 >> > Fax 306-966-7159 >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> Chris Sherwin >> Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare >> Division Clinical Veterinary Science >> University of Bristol >> Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk >> Phone 0117 928 9486 > > -- > Gerrard Flannigan DVM MSc. DACVB > gflannigan@triad.rr.com ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: Mimetic desire From: gflannigan@triad.rr.com Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:37:54 -0500 To: applied-ethology network Hi Chris: one definition of mimetic desire equated wanting a woman with an object because another had her. In that sense, food or "being petted" could be an "object". For a social animal, social attention is a valued resource. On Wikepedia, social facilitation sounded like the adult human version of teenage "peer pressure". Gerry ---- "CM Sherwin wrote: > > Hi Gerry, > > Precisely that. I looked up 'mimetic desire' on Wikepedia and the desire > > for an 'object' seems instrumental to its definition, but is 'food' or > > 'being petted' an 'object'. Having said this, looking up 'social > > facilitation' on Wikepedia sent me into a total head-spin about how this > > relates to its traditional use in animal ethology! > > > > -- Gerrard Flannigan DVM MSc. DACVB gflannigan@triad.rr.com Subject: Re: Mimetic desire From: joseph stookey Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:40:21 -0600 To: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" CC: "Jay R. Feierman" , applied-ethology network Hi Everyone, I think the question regarding "mimetic desire" is a little more complicated than the examples I have seen so far. Mimetic behaviour is one thing, but the concept of "desire" would have more of a cognitive aspect to it. At least in people we would think mimetic desire is driven by envy or jealousy in the sense that having what the other person has, somehow would elevate your status in the eyes of others. So not only would you have some perception that the other party holding the "object" is better off than you, but you would also have the sense that if you had control of the object then you would "look" better to others - having some sense of their state of mind and knowledge of what they must be thinking. That scenario has much higher cognitive processing than simply placing yourself (if you are a pet) into a better position to get petted when the master is giving out pats on the head. So if we say certain criteria must be met before we call it mimetic desire, what would the criteria be and could animals meet the conditions? That is my question. Thank you for considering it. Cheers, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: Re: Mimetic desire From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:51:52 +0000 To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca, "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" CC: "Jay R. Feierman" , applied-ethology network Joe, I might be committing career suicide here!!, but I recollect a story about a matriarchal chimp who carried a can around with her (possibly also containing a stone). The other chimps would try to steal this off her. Eventually, the hierarchy changed, her daughter became the matriarch and immediately started to carry the can around. If this story is not true and a figment of my imagination, I apologise in advance! Chris --On 13 February 2008 08:40 -0600 joseph stookey wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I think the question regarding "mimetic desire" is a little more > complicated than the examples I have seen so far. Mimetic behaviour is > one thing, but the concept of "desire" would have more of a cognitive > aspect to it. At least in people we would think mimetic desire is driven > by envy or jealousy in the sense that having what the other person has, > somehow would elevate your status in the eyes of others. So not only > would you have some perception that the other party holding the "object" > is better off than you, but you would also have the sense that if you had > control of the object then you would "look" better to others - having > some sense of their state of mind and knowledge of what they must be > thinking. That scenario has much higher cognitive processing than simply > placing yourself (if you are a pet) into a better position to get petted > when the master is giving out pats on the head. > > So if we say certain criteria must be met before we call it mimetic > desire, what would the criteria be and could animals meet the conditions? > That is my question. Thank you for considering it. > > Cheers, > > Joe > > > > > -- > Joseph M. Stookey > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > University of Saskatchewan > 52 Campus Drive > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > Canada S7N 5B4 > > Tel 306-966-7154 > Fax 306-966-7159 > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: Mimetic desire From: doggiepause@comcast.net Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:54:25 +0000 To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca, applied-ethology network CC: joseph stookey In my dog daycare, a dog will sometimes pick up a previously-ignored toy Kong only to have a second dog try to take it away. Often they will play with it together. If the second dog succeeds in taking it away, sometimes he will continue to play with the toy, (Tease the first dog with it: "chase me!" "play tug with me") Sometimes he will take it off to the side to chew on it. Sometimes, he will just drop it and walk away. Maybe he actually wants the toy for himself. Maybe he wants to play with the first dog. Maybe he just doesn't want the first dog to have it. (But I doubt it.) Judy Gee Doggie Pause ltd. -------------- Original message -------------- From: joseph stookey Hi Everyone, Below is a question by brother recently sent me. He works with aspects of "Peace" among nations and peoples and this topic came up. Would anyone care to respond in regards to whether this theory relates to animal behaviour? Any examples? Subject: Re: Mimetic desire From: joseph stookey Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:15:16 -0600 To: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" CC: "Jay R. Feierman" , applied-ethology network HI Chris, Well, if your story of the matriarchal chimp carrying around the can and stone which was then passed down to the next heir to the "throne", is indeed true, then that might come close to meeting the criteria of mimetic desire, IF the can was valued by all the troop and IF the new heir "felt" some pride or smugness for gaining possession of the can and believed other troop members were jealous. That of course is the problem with most of these exercises - we never really know what they are thinking. If dogs steal toys from other dogs (even toys that were previously ignored), I am not sure that fits the category of "I know what you must be thinking", which to me would seem essential for the toy stealing to be an example of "mimetic desire". I should just go back to reviewing papers - this is giving me a headache. Cheers, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: Puppy behavioural tests : Recommendations? From: Jenni Hakosalo Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:31:19 +0200 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Dear all, Could someone here recommend a good and humane puppy behaviour test when selecting pet dogs or "matching" puppies and owners? I'm aware of the reliability problems when it comes to puppy testing and also the great amount of different tests available - these are my reasons to ask further advice from you. I'd like to here comments/notices from those who are more familiar with the subject and especially with the practical part of puppy testing. All comments will be greatly appreciated! Sincerely, Jenni ---------------------------------------------- Jenni Hakosalo M.Sc. Vertepro Oy (Ltd.) Finland jenni@vertepro.fi www.vertepro.fi Subject: Re:Re: Mimetic desire From: John Lane Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:41:07 +1300 To: Applied Ethology List JOE SAID: I should just go back to reviewing papers - this is giving me a headache Don’t you dare Joe. . This and the previous discussion are the best two discussions I have seen on this list for a long while. While many of us may not be proactively inputting I am sure there are many like me that are reviewing, stretching our ideas and learning from it. Regards John L. New Zealand Subject: Regional ISAE Conference, 2nd announcement From: Peter Kabai Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:35:09 +0100 To: ethology Dear Colleagues! I would like to remind you about the approaching deadlines for the JOINT EAST AND WEST CENTRAL EUROPE ISAE REGIONAL MEETING which will be held May 15-17 2008 in Bratislava, Slovakia. "New approaches in the study of animal behaviour and welfare" is the joining thread of four plenary lectures: - Alain Boissy (INRA - Centre de Theix, France): "Emotions and cognition: a behavioural approach to assess the affective world of animals" - Per Jensen (Linköping university, Sweden): "The behaviour genomics of domestication in chickens" - Peter Kabai (Szent Istvan University, Hungary): "Stereotypies about stereotypies" - Michael C. Appleby (The World Society for the Protection of Animals, UK): "International changes in farm animal welfare: applying applied ethology worldwide" Along with high scientific quality, our regional meetings have usually very friendly atmosphere. The meeting is open to both members and non-members of the ISAE and in particular young researchers and students are invited to present and discuss their results. Bratislava,the capital of Slovakia, is easily accessible and worth visiting. More information on conference website http://www.csets.sk/isae/ISAEBratislava/index.html The deadline for abstract submission and registration is March 17 (registration deadline for passive attendance is April 25, 2008), formular you can find on http://www.csets.sk/isae/ISAEBratislava/registration.html We are looking forward to see you in Bratislava! Boris Bilcik reg. secretary ------------------------------------------------------------------ Boris Bilc(ík Institute of Animal Biochemistry and Genetics Slovak Academy of Sciences Moyzesova 61 900 28 Ivanka pri Dunaji Slovakia phone: +421 2 4594 3232 fax: +421 2 4594 3932 e-mail: bbilcik@gmail.com -- forwarded by Peter Kabai, PhD Associate Professor Dept Ecology, Szent Istvan University http://www.behav.org Subject: Re: dog in mirrors From: Sabine Goubau Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:10:20 -0700 To: Audrey Schwartz Rivers CC: ethology network My Shetland sheepdog sees something in the mirror and sniffs cautiously to identify it. A Havanese I fostered for a few months, barked at the image or movement in the mirror and would observe it for long periods of time. My boxer looked at me in the eyes via the mirror the first time we were both facing a mirror. I could not tell a difference from the eye contact we make when we are face to face. My impression is that she recognized me. She looked astonished and turned around to make eye contact with me (I was obviously behind her, facing the mirror). Then she went back and forth between my face in the mirror and my face behind her looking deeply puzzled. I could always make eye contact and hold her gaze as well via the mirror and when we were face to face, but she lost interest faster. A friend of mine claims that her two French bulldogs recognize her in the mirror , but her two mastiffs don't. I have no details about their behaviour in those situations. Sabine Audrey Schwartz Rivers wrote: > Here's how my dogs react to their reflection in the mirror (or a display window for that matter). > > First, they bark at it -- I would ass-u-me it is because they see a "strange" dog in the mirror. > > Next, they stop barking, stare at the reflection in the mirror/window. > > They then walk away. > > Next time they pass the mirror or the window, they look at the reflection and do not bark at it. > > I also saw a stray dog (fairly young) go toward its image in a mirror, sniff at it, then totally ignore it. > > Because I have no clue what the dog is thinking (nor even what s/he is actually seeing), my anthropomorphic explanation is that the dog (s) quickly learn that the reflection in the mirror is something they need not worry about. Whether they understand it is really their own image, a "virtual" dog or something else, I don't think any of us can say for sure. Also, I do wonder if the mirror test is always a conclusive determination of awareness in all cases and with all species. > > Audrey Schwartz Rivers, MS > > Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? 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