Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: EJ Haskins Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:50:04 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >> Now, while I'll agree that the hard-wiring theoretically limits the range of responses, do you think that it ever really limits the animal in terms of *practical* behaviour?>> Absolutely!!!''One thing which I thought we all knew is that domestication of animals, whatever else is selected for absolutely changes the animal's behaviour. That is WHY we domesticate species rather than simply farm wild animals. http://www.floridalupine.org/publications/PDF/trut-fox-study.pdf It is all explained with reference to the alterations in the neurochemistry they has been selected for. You will also find quite a discussion of this effect in Steven Lindsay's "Applied dog Behavior and Training" Vol 1. Not to mention other authorities on domestication of animals. As far as rearing domestic dogs in a situation free of human influence, yes it has been done. By Scott and Fuller (I believe) with Border Collies. I( saw a video of some of their results. The pups were seriously affected just as the monkey infants were seriously affected in the Harlow experiments. http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Harlow/love.htm However, they did NOT behave like wolves -- they were simply not able to be socialised to humans. (Somebody else here might have a better reference to these experiments and their results??) Michael W Fox also reared beagles, beagle/coyote crosses and coyotes to compare their development. He found that "coyote pups could kill weaner rats at 8 weeks of age. Beagle pups were unable to kill weaner rats. Coydogs were unable to kill at first trial, but retrials they progressed steadily through the sequence until killing and dissection occurred. This showed that the sequence was genetically truncated in the Beagle and it the coydog it was genetically retarded. Fox showed that the kill bite is performed by Beagle pups but that it is a very soft bite, not harming the rat." Don Morris, in "training and Working Dogs" by Scott Lithgow. reference Michael W Fox, "The Dog: Its Domestication and Behaviour" 1978. Interestingly Morris, still using the same reference has this to say: "In domestic breeds the predatory system has been modified in various ways according to human needs. Michael Fox (1978) proposed a model wherein domestic breeds have the same innate organisation of the sequence of predatory behaviours but differ in the emphasis placed of various behaviours in that sequence:- TRACKING, TRAILING -------------------> BLOODHOUNDS, GREYHOUNDS HERDING, DRIVING --------------------> SHEEP DOGS STALKING, POINTING ---------------------> SETTER, POINTER ATTACKING, KILLING -----------------------> BOARHOUND RETRIEVING ----------------------> RETRIEVERS in this figure the sequence of predatory behaviour comes down the page, while the horizontal lines mark points of the truncation of the sequence in the breeds shown. This sheep dogs may do tracking, trailing, herding and driving but, according to the model, would not perform actions past the point of truncation. (Actually, I have some reservation about the exact sequence shown although I agree that truncation of an innate sequence exists.)" I too, (Jenny) have reservations -- I think that some parts of the sequence may even be missed -- my Kelpies, great herders have never been at all interested in tracking!! :-) Cheers, Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Bowers To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 1:41 AM Subject: RE: dogs managing their own emotions Thank you! :) Quite glad to see you jump in. Now, while I'll agree that the hard-wiring theoretically limits the range of responses, do you think that it ever really limits the animal in terms of *practical* behaviour? By this I mean: shouldn't any canid who develops a bond with their human, be able to accomplish pretty much anything within the normal range of dos and don'ts for a dog in our society, if given proper training? I am not talking about doing Schutzhund with a Siberian or SAR with a Lhasa , but do you think there is anything critical to life as companion animals, that the 16 week hardwiring would render unattainable? With a pure wolf or high content cross, I would say that if they have never trusted a human by that point, it is possible that they never will. Just about anything else, IMO, is trainable--if you have the skill set. But, what has been found to be the case with domestic dogs? ~Sue! Subject: Re: wolves and coyotes and dogs, Oh My From: EJ Haskins Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:11:45 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Thankyou Simon!! :-) I am also concerned that some people are seriously misunderstanding "hierarchy" and interpret it as a linear, static phenomenon. Hierarchy originally referred to the order of heavenly beings (Judeo-Christian) With God/Yahweh at the top, followed by the archangels, then the angels right down to the myriad cherubim (I think) at the bottom. :-) Actually I personally prefer to see social relationships as more of a web (like a food web) . Cheers, Jenny H Alpha Bitch in the haskins pack :-) Coffs ----- Original Message ----- From: Simon Gadbois To: Sue Bowers ; ethology network Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:48 AM Subject: Re: wolves and coyotes and dogs, Oh My Rejecting dominance theory makes no scientific sense whatsoever: the word "dominance" or the expression "dominance hierarchy" is as good as others to explain the dynamic of a wolf pack, baboon troop, pod of dolphins, herd of elephants, etc. The problem was to rely too much on "aggression" (and "submission") to define a dominance hierarchy (or, o.k., let's call it "social hierarchy"; Gadbois 2007, International Ethological Conference, Halifax, Canada) and ignoring affiliative behaviours (e.g., play) and reproductive behaviours (e.g., courtship). Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: EJ Haskins Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:19:28 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Ant THAT depends very much on breed of domestic dog!! There's not much a poor Shar Pei can do to change its face -- or a Pug. And Staffies (English) seem to have one single expression regardless of what they are thinking. Which is what I think makes them dangerous :-( But I find German Shepherds have extraordinarily expressive faces -- and a wide range of different sounds. (I don't know how much compared to wolves, but definitely compared to most of the breeds is see in my classes.). > Lore I. Haug: . . Wolves have many more facial expressions than dogs for example > Simon Gadbois: I am not sure about the "many more facial expressions" but certainly more vocalizations (e.g., the squeak). There is indeed an "universal grammar" of canid language (vocal and body language), with more similarities than differences, including (speculatively) pheromones. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:36:18 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Yes. See an old but excellent book, re interspecies communication: "The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals" Charles Darwin. I don't think that it at all surprising that humans can read dog facial expressions and that dogs can read human facial expressions. nor that different species of canids can read each other's expressions. ESPECIALLY if the animals are reared together. My dogs can read my cats. My cats can read my dogs. The goat can read the dogs and me. Her face isn't very expressive so the dogs and I rely on other behaviours to understand the goat. The chooks (AKA chickens) are not to good at reading facial expressions though. They ARE good at understanding spoken language :-) You can't fool a chook by using pretty words :-) I don't think the mice and rats relied on facial expressions either :-) As a matter of fact I suspect that they couldn't even see them. Cheers, Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Zen Trainer To: Ethics List Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 4:02 PM Subject: Interspecies communication finally my dogs are fluent in cat, horse and turtle. Now, they grew up with cats and turtles. (Big sort of turtles that wander my land) My newest pup seemed fluent in horse the first time he met one. The horse put up with my pups crazy barking for a moment and then stamped his foot, huffed and puffed (snorted maybe) and my pup knew exactly what he meant and responded appropriately. I don't think dogs are related to cats, turtles or horses but they sure know how to communicate with them. Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 06:15:43 -0500 (EST) To: ejhaskins@bigpond.com, applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In a message dated 01/02/2009 10:20:21 GMT Standard Time, ejhaskins@bigpond.com writes: Ant THAT depends very much on breed of domestic dog!! There's not much a poor Shar Pei can do to change its face -- or a Pug. And Staffies (English) seem to have one single expression regardless of what they are thinking. Which is what I think makes them dangerous :-( But I find German Shepherds have extraordinarily expressive faces -- and a wide range of different sounds. (I don't know how much compared to wolves, but definitely compared to most of the breeds is see in my classes.). Canids communicate with more than just facial expressions, in fact it is mostly achieved by bodily posturing – especially if we are looking at conflict. There is a good book by Brenda Aloff ‘A photographic guide to Canine Body Language’. Gordon Butcher UK Subject: RE: dogs managing their own emotions From: Sue Bowers Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 06:55:06 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Actually, I was wondering what folks thought *within* a domestic species itself...in reference to what Gordon noted about the 16 week "cap" on wiring and early development. i.e. Do you think a skilled person can recover *any* dog to be a decent companion, with the right training, regardless of how they've developed in the first 16 weeks--if the animal can manage a bond with them? Or are domestic dogs likely to be "lost causes" if unhandled and understimulated for the first 4 months? The thing I'd always found most interesting about Belyaev's foxes was that the physical traits were linked to tameness. :-) But, that's a whole 'nother subject. I will look up the Border Collie study; thanks for the lead. :) ~Sue! From: EJ Haskins [mailto:ejhaskins@bigpond.com] >> Now, while I'll agree that the hard-wiring theoretically limits the range of responses, do you think that it ever really limits the animal in terms of *practical* behaviour?>> Absolutely!!!''One thing which I thought we all knew is that domestication of animals, whatever else is selected for absolutely changes the animal's behaviour. That is WHY we domesticate species rather than simply farm wild animals. Subject: RE: Object recognition in canines From: Sue Bowers Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 07:08:22 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I can't offer studies, but it might help to clarify whether the dogs are confused enough by the doll to consider it in the category of a small human...or whether the dogs have just developed a learned association between the doll and humans, in which the doll represents a human extension and they are required to treat it as such. My words are not spot-on this morning compared to what I am thinking (must be the lack of sleep ), but here are some related thoughts in case that sentence was clear as mud. Dogs can learn that an object (or even another pet) is "mine", and they can learn not to touch it, or how they are expected to react to it. In the case of dogs not biting a rubber temperament-testing arm, I would think that those dogs have learned that humans require them to not only abstain from biting humans, but also from biting humans' objects. Likewise, I had one female mutt here who, when enthusiastically feeding on a deer carcass, has no problem with me stepping in between and cutting pieces off while she's eating, but the time that I curiously poked the carcass with a stick to see what she would do, she nailed that stick remarkably quickly, and hard. ;-) Have you ever been in the room with a dead person? If humans can sense the difference between "alive" and "not alive", even at that level, then dogs certainly can, too...imo, they are much more attuned to sensing energy than we are. How, how much simpler is it to discriminate between "alive" and "not alive", when something is made of plastic? I believe that dogs can learn what a doll ~represents~, without having to be fooled into thinking that the doll is a live person...but doubt that any piece of plastic can ever be given the characteristics that would make any dog sincerely believe it is a real human child. That is one reason I am *not at all* a fan of Sue Sternberg, and others who oversimplify "temperament testing". ~Sue! From: EJ Haskins [mailto:ejhaskins@bigpond.com] I am wondering if there is any scientific evidence, as opposed to hearsay and opinion either for or against whether of not a canine animal would recognise a "DOLL" as a "human infant". And/or just how life-like would such a doll need to be to be recognised by a dog as a human infant?? Would the doll need to move like a human child? smell like a human child? sound like a human child? be the appropriate size to match its apparent (to the human observer) age. Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 07:22:29 -0500 (EST) To: ejhaskins@bigpond.com, Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hi Jenny, There are some scientific references to this topic - I’ll attempt to dig them out for you. On a similar track – with SAR training, FEMA train separate dogs that search for Cadavers or live casualties. I have asked why? Linda Buck won a Nobel Prize in 2000 for her discovery that the sense of smell in dogs is based on a combinatorial approach to recognizing and processing odours. Instead of dedicating an individual odour receptor to a specific odour, the olfactory system uses an "alphabet" of receptors to create a specific smell response within the neurons of the brain. Each receptor is used over and over again to define an odour, just like letters are used over and over again to define different words, As in language; the olfactory system appears to use combinations of receptors (words) to greatly reduce the number of actual receptor types (letters) required to convey a broad range of odours (vocabulary). The findings of Buck and her colleagues were the first confirmation that the nerves that constitute the mammalian olfactory system also use a combinatorial approach. As odours enter the nose and negotiate a hairpin-like turn at the top of the nasal cavity, they encounter the olfactory epithelium. The olfactory epithelium contains about five million olfactory neurons. Buck and her colleagues had previously discovered that each olfactory neuron expresses only one of roughly 1,000 types of olfactory receptors on its surface. 40,000 human cells are being shed each minute from the skin, respiratory and digestive tracts. These cells that are shed from the body carry along bacteria and a layer of body scents. Dogs smell this along with other bodily chemicals during training with human volunteers. So, when a SAR/police dog indicates on a cadaver much of these individual compounds are still giving off odour traces. These odours would trigger the memory of the individual corresponding receptors and indicate 'human'. Ok, a human that is dead i.e. no heart beat or breath sounds, etc. but a human nevertheless. We have no evidence to surmise that a dog has not the cognitive ability to link the two together? In cases when search dogs find their first cadaver they more often present a diversity of behaviours, it could be that they are, in addition, smelling new odours of decomposing compounds and are unsure of these new smells and what they represent. And when dogs come across situations that are new to them they all react differently depending on how they were introduced to novel stimuli during their habitual stage of the development, coupled with their relationship towards the handler. So, coming back to your doll scenario, the dog would easily distinguish that the item did not give of the compounds that indicated “human”. Regards Gordon Butcher UK In a message dated 01/02/2009 05:04:09 GMT Standard Time, ejhaskins@bigpond.com writes: Back to the start of the recent thread; I am wondering if there is any scientific evidence, as opposed to hearsay and opinion either for or against whether of not a canine animal would recognise a "DOLL" as a "human infant". And/or just how life-like would such a doll need to be to be recognised by a dog as a human infant?? Would the doll need to move like a human child? smell like a human child? sound like a human child? be the appropriate size to match its apparent (to the human observer) age. That is, should a doll that looks like a ten year old be the size of a real 10 year old child, or would a doll that is the size of a 9 month old baby but otherwise looks like a 10 year old be recognised by a dog as a human child?? And just to show my generosity, I am throwing out another interesting topic for a PhD!!! (I'd do it myself, if I had the courage ;-) And didn't still dream abour overdue assignments and exams, etc) I have been searching, with little success, for information regarding object recognition in Canines. Difficult because I do not have access to scholarly articles, and because I'm still not quite sure what key words to type into my searches. I began by looking up child development and yet couldn't find any article which gave the general ages when a human infant is able to recognise models and pictorial representations as the same as the 'real thing'. As in what age is it that a child recognises that a toy dog is a representative of a real dog. -- rather than merely responding to the word "dog". I am a volunteer presenter of the Delta SPOT programme in infants schools here (Safe Pets Out There -- teaching kids safety around domestic animals) and I have a suspicion that some of the kids haven't yet made the conceptual connection. While some have made it TOO strong and are afraid of our model Dalmatian that we take with us :-( Then I searched for --"object recognition" canine -- still without much joy. Now I KNOW I have read that dogs' main sense for recognition is smell and movement. But I can't even find THAT reference. Looking forward to all teh lovely information I will get, Cheers, Jenny H Coffs Austalia Subject: Re: From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 08:02:12 -0500 (EST) To: SBowers@rfmd.com, applied-ethology@usask.ca Do you mean that he placed the border collie *away from sheep*, or away from *dogs* during that time?? The pup was left with the sheep 24/7 with limited human contact and no other dog contact. I think Coppinger actually experimented with two collie pups? He presents the case that by housing the dogs during the critical socialisation period with the sheep you were imprinting them to traverse away from being herding dogs to livestock guarding. Instead of the dogs exhibiting eye-stalk motor patterns they began to display social dog submissive posturing i.e. lying on their backs when the ewes approached them. Coppinger begins to question whither breed related behaviour is infact genetic or epigenetic? Regards Gordon. Subject: Re: From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 05:12:12 -0800 (PST) To: SBowers@rfmd.com, applied-ethology@usask.ca, LyndhurstPark@aol.com I was at Wolf Park when Ray was doing his study with the Italian Marremas. (I never could spell that word). I remember that we were not allowed to interact with the dogs, except to feed. The dogs lived with the sheep from the time they were very young puppies. That was allmost thirty years ago and I have forgotten a lot about the dogs and the sheep. My job was wolf puppies and coyote puppies and their socialization. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue --- On Sun, 2/1/09, LyndhurstPark@aol.com wrote: From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Subject: Re: To: SBowers@rfmd.com, applied-ethology@usask.ca Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 8:02 AM Do you mean that he placed the border collie *away from sheep*, or away from *dogs* during that time?? The pup was left with the sheep 24/7 with limited human contact and no other dog contact. I think Coppinger actually experimented with two collie pups? He presents the case that by housing the dogs during the critical socialisation period with the sheep you were imprinting them to traverse away from being herding dogs to livestock guarding. Instead of the dogs exhibiting eye-stalk motor patterns they began to display social dog submissive posturing i.e. lying on their backs when the ewes approached them. Coppinger begins to question whither breed related behaviour is infact genetic or epigenetic? Regards Gordon. Subject: RE: dogs managing their own emotions From: Sue Bowers Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 08:42:58 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I am actually in the same boat as you, w.r.t. non-scientific reading and experience, and not having the official definition. I would be guilty of using a layman's definition, in that I mean the dog seeks contact and interaction with you, and is responsive to your actions. (perceived as a member of its social group, perhaps?) Maybe someone else can define this for us. ~Sue! ________________________________ From: cissy stamm [mailto:stammwood@rcn.com] Sue, could you explain how one would be able to identify bonding? It may well have an agreed upon meaning in behavioral/ethological/scientific communities, but I don't know exactly what it means or is. I've read a lot of non-scientific information on the human/animal bond, and I think I've experienced it as have the vast majority of folks who interact with animals in our culture. While I thinking about the very important question you posed I realized although I think I "know" when an animal is bonded to me, I realize I don't know *how* I know. Thanks. Cissy On Feb 1, 2009, at 3:55 AM, Sue Bowers wrote: Actually, I was wondering what folks thought *within* a domestic species itself...in reference to what Gordon noted about the 16 week "cap" on wiring and early development. i.e. Do you think a skilled person can recover *any* dog to be a decent companion, with the right training, regardless of how they've developed in the first 16 weeks--if the animal can manage a bond with them? Or are domestic dogs likely to be "lost causes" if unhandled and understimulated for the first 4 months? Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 08:42:34 -0700 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Jenny H: I don't think that it at all surprising that humans can read dog facial expressions and that dogs can read human facial expressions. nor that different species of canids can read each other's expressions. Jay R. Feierman: What is the evidence that "dogs can read human facial expressions"? For example, a dog's wagging tail is similar to a human smile. Humans have figured this out and don't look at a dog's face to know if the dog is happy, as the expressive behaviors that signal happiness (willingness to interact in a friendly way/appeasment, etc) in a dog is the wag of the tail, rather than turning up the corner of the dog's mouth and some contration of the muscles around the eyes. Dog's certainly can read human expressive behaviors, especially in the tone of voice and certain gross body postures. I am very skeptical that dogs can read human facial expressions or learn to do so on their own. So if you have some type of reference to data on this, I'd be very interested. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 08:51:13 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Cissy: Sue, could you explain how one would be able to identify bonding? Jay R. Feierman: For humans it is very easy to know subjectively when one is bonded to another human being. It is a feeling one has. In addition one does things for a person to whom one is bonded that one might not do for someone to whom one is not bonded. An example would be giving more than one expects back in return in a social exchange. Bonding occurs in many taxa. It is not limited to mammals, as one also sees it in certain taxa of birds. For an outside observer to determine that social bonding is a characteristic phenomenon of a species, the easiest way is preferential association, which includes preferential social exchange. In some non-human primates one sees preferential social grooming even between members of the same sex, so the motivation is not pair-bonding for reproduction. Perhaps there are other methods other than preferential association for determining bonding but that seems the most obvious and easiest to identify. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: Simon Gadbois Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 12:09:59 -0400 To: ethology network On 1-Feb-09, at 11:42 AM, Jay R. Feierman wrote: > Jay R. Feierman: What is the evidence that "dogs can read human facial expressions"? For example, a dog's wagging tail is similar to a human smile. Humans have figured this out and don't look at a dog's face to know if the dog is happy, as the expressive behaviors that signal happiness (willingness to interact in a friendly way/appeasment, etc) in a dog is the wag of the tail, rather than turning up the corner of the dog's mouth and some contration of the muscles around the eyes. Dog's certainly can read human expressive behaviors, especially in the tone of voice and certain gross body postures. I am very skeptical that dogs can read human facial expressions or learn to do so on their own. So if you have some type of reference to data on this, I'd be very interested. Simon Gadbois: This may be a reference to the recent yawning experiments (Joly-Mascheroni, Senju, Shepherd, (2008). Biology letters, 4, 446-448). I have a few students looking into this and related questions with three and two dimensional stimuli (human faces). There are indeed good reasons to second guess this ability. The ethological date would suggest that canids are great detectors and interpreters of body movements and prosody, but beyond that, it is unclear at best. Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: cissy stamm Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 08:28:28 -0800 To: Sue Bowers CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sue, could you explain how one would be able to identify bonding? It may well have an agreed upon meaning in behavioral/ethological/scientific communities, but I don't know exactly what it means or is. I've read a lot of non-scientific information on the human/animal bond, and I think I've experienced it as have the vast majority of folks who interact with animals in our culture. While I thinking about the very important question you posed I realized although I think I "know" when an animal is bonded to me, I realize I don't know *how* I know. Thanks. Cissy On Feb 1, 2009, at 3:55 AM, Sue Bowers wrote: > Actually, I was wondering what folks thought *within* a domestic species itself...in reference to what Gordon noted about the 16 week "cap" on wiring and early development. i.e. Do you think a skilled person can recover *any* dog to be a decent companion, with the right training, regardless of how they've developed in the first 16 weeks--if the animal can manage a bond with them? Or are domestic dogs likely to be "lost causes" if unhandled and understimulated for the first 4 months? > > The thing I'd always found most interesting about Belyaev's foxes was that the physical traits were linked to tameness. :-) But, that's a whole 'nother subject. > > I will look up the Border Collie study; thanks for the lead. :) > ~Sue! > > From: EJ Haskins [mailto:ejhaskins@bigpond.com] > >> Now, while I'll agree that the hard-wiring theoretically limits the range of responses, do you think that it ever really limits the animal in terms of *practical* behaviour?>> > > > Absolutely!!!''One thing which I thought we all knew is that domestication of animals, whatever else is selected for absolutely changes the animal's behaviour. That is WHY we domesticate species rather than simply farm wild animals. Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 09:38:36 -0700 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Jenny H: I am wondering if there is any scientific evidence, as opposed to hearsay and opinion either for or against whether of not a canine animal would recognise a "DOLL" as a "human infant". Jay R. Feierman: In order to be able to answer this question, a canine would have to behave in a unique way towards a human infant. Since that is not the case, the question can not be answered. How would you know that the canine "recognized" the doll as a human infant unless there were a human-infant specific behavior that a canine exhibits. Jenny H: And/or just how life-like would such a doll need to be to be recognised by a dog as a human infant?? Jay R. Feierman: That presumes that when canines interact with human infants that the features that the dog relates to are the same features that humans use when they recognize a human infant from any other small mammal. One can ask the same question in terms what features would have to be present on a doll for a human to recognize the doll as a doll of a human infant based on whether or not little girls picked up the doll and played with it like they play with dolls. Unless you can identify a similar doll-specific behavior in a canine as you can in a little girl, the question is unanswerable. Jenny H: Would the doll need to move like a human child? smell like a human child? sound like a human child? be the appropriate size to match its apparent (to the human observer) age. Jay R. Feierman: Again, even though you are asking the ethologically-appropriate questions in terms of "releasing stimuli," the question remains unanswerable. If you observe some dogs "playing" with small, furry stuffed animals (children's toys), they treat the small stuffed animals like their puppies, carrying them around, licking them, etc. I suspect that if a doll were just made of some type of smooth plastic, it would not be interacted with in the same way as a small, furry stuffed animal. Jenny H: That is, should a doll that looks like a ten year old be the size of a real 10 year old child, or would a doll that is the size of a 9 month old baby but otherwise looks like a 10 year old be recognized by a dog as a human child. Jay R. Feierman: Again, you would have to identify canine behavior specific to interacting with 10 year old child versus a 9 month old baby to answer this question. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Re: From: cissy stamm Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 09:03:39 -0800 To: Cecilia Lambert CC: SBowers@rfmd.com, applied-ethology@usask.ca, LyndhurstPark@aol.com I don't know whether or not Coppinger still recommends that lgds have minimal interaction with and not be allowed to bond (that word again!) to humans. I know that some lgd breeders and users recommend this although it is being widely questioned. There are those who breed and/or use lgds who do basic obedience and socialization with their lgds. Some take them from field to the show ring. One of the major issues with not allowing lgds to interact with people is that the dogs become impossible for any human to handle. You can imagine the kinds of problems this can cause, especially when it comes to basic grooming and health related problems. Historically these dogs were often just left to fend for themselves. But good, working lgds save farmers mega $ from predation loses (and timber theft) and are worth their weight in gold especially where there is heavy predation on expensive livestock. Not "maintaining" them is considered foolish by many lgd users - at a minimum the equivalent of just letting your farm equipment deteriorate because of lack of maintenance. And for those who care, using lgds means you rarely need to kill predators. Cissy On Feb 1, 2009, at 5:12 AM, Cecilia Lambert wrote: > I was at Wolf Park when Ray was doing his study with the Italian Marremas. (I never could spell that word). I remember that we were not allowed to interact with the dogs, except to feed. The dogs lived with the sheep from the time they were very young puppies. > That was allmost thirty years ago and I have forgotten a lot about the dogs and the sheep. My job was wolf puppies and coyote puppies and their socialization. > CeAnn > > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.coyoterescue.org > Please visit our gift shop @ > www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue > > > --- On Sun, 2/1/09, LyndhurstPark@aol.com wrote: > > From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com > Subject: Re: > To: SBowers@rfmd.com, applied-ethology@usask.ca > Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 8:02 AM > > Do you mean that he placed the border collie *away from sheep*, or away from *dogs* during that time?? > > The pup was left with the sheep 24/7 with limited human contact and no other dog contact. I think Coppinger actually experimented with two collie pups? He presents the case that by housing the dogs during the critical socialisation period with the sheep you were imprinting them to traverse away from being herding dogs to livestock guarding. Instead of the dogs exhibiting eye-stalk motor patterns they began to display social dog submissive posturing i.e. lying on their backs when the ewes approached them. > > Coppinger begins to question whither breed related behaviour is infact genetic or epigenetic? > > Regards > > Gordon. > Subject: Re: Study Finds Naming Cows Increases Milk Yield From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 10:35:09 -0700 To: cissy stamm , applied-ethology@usask.ca Cissy: Subject: Study Finds Naming Cows Increases Milk Yield. See http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/136995.php . Given our current discussions, any thoughts on this? Jay R. Feierman: The study says, "Almost half - 46 per cent - said the cows on their farm were called by name. Those that called their cows by name had a 258 litre higher milk yield than those who did not." Unless cows were randomly assigned to be named or not named, one can not determine cause and effect from a simple correlation. There may be lots of other variables involved. Also, one may tend to name an animal with whom one relates more. The naming may not be the important variable. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 09:54:34 -0800 (PST) To: cissy stamm CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca ...in reference to what Gordon noted about the 16 week "cap" on wiring and early development. i.e. Do you think a skilled person can recover *any* dog to be a decent companion, with the right training, regardless of how they've developed in the first 16 weeks--if the animal can manage a bond with them? Or are domestic dogs likely to be "lost causes" if unhandled and understimulated for the first 4 months? I can tell you that one of the volunteers adopted one of Ray's study dogs at Wolf Park. She eventually adopted it out to another home, because the dog did not bond with her as she was expecting. The way that I interpreted this was, the dog did not meet her needs, so she got rid of it. Which may have been better for the dog in the long run. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue --- On Sun, 2/1/09, cissy stamm wrote: From: cissy stamm Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions To: "Sue Bowers" Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 11:28 AM Sue, could you explain how one would be able to identify bonding? It may well have an agreed upon meaning in behavioral/ethological/scientific communities, but I don't know exactly what it means or is. I've read a lot of non-scientific information on the human/animal bond, and I think I've experienced it as have the vast majority of folks who interact with animals in our culture. While I thinking about the very important question you posed I realized although I think I "know" when an animal is bonded to me, I realize I don't know *how* I know. Thanks. Cissy On Feb 1, 2009, at 3:55 AM, Sue Bowers wrote: > Actually, I was wondering what folks thought *within* a domestic species itself...in reference to what Gordon noted about the 16 week "cap" on wiring and early development. i.e. Do you think a skilled person can recover *any* dog to be a decent companion, with the right training, regardless of how they've developed in the first 16 weeks--if the animal can manage a bond with them? Or are domestic dogs likely to be "lost causes" if unhandled and understimulated for the first 4 months? > > The thing I'd always found most interesting about Belyaev's foxes was that the physical traits were linked to tameness. :-) But, that's a whole 'nother subject. > > I will look up the Border Collie study; thanks for the lead. :) > ~Sue! > > From: EJ Haskins [mailto:ejhaskins@bigpond.com] > >> Now, while I'll agree that the hard-wiring theoretically limits the range of responses, do you think that it ever really limits the animal in terms of *practical* behaviour?>> > > > Absolutely!!!''One thing which I thought we all knew is that domestication of animals, whatever else is selected for absolutely changes the animal's behaviour. That is WHY we domesticate species rather than simply farm wild animals. Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 11:18:00 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CeAnn Lambert: ...in reference to what Gordon noted about the 16 week "cap" on wiring and early development. i.e. Do you think a skilled person can recover *any* dog to be a decent companion, with the right training, regardless of how they've developed in the first 16 weeks--if the animal can manage a bond with them? Or are domestic dogs likely to be "lost causes" if unhandled and understimulated for the first 4 months? Jay R. Feierman: We used to have a barn full of horses and "barn cats" that lived in the barn. They ate the mice that were attracted to the grain in the barn. When one of the female barn cats had kittens, we learned that if we did not handle the kittens within approximately the first four months, we could never pet them as adults, as they ran from us like any wild animal. However, if we only occasionally handled them as kittens, they would come to us as adults and allow us to pet them. It appears that there is a "critical period" or "sensitive period" within which a human can become a species to which the cats do not display avoidance behavior. Just like in avian imprinting, humans in general are the object, rather than any particular human. I am sure that one can "tame" an animal that has not had human contract within this early critical/sensitive period. Perhaps so, but there would be a lot of fear in the animal to be overcome. I think the situation may be similar to trying to "tame" and "break" (i.e., train) a horse that has had very little human contact prior to adulthood compared to training a horse that has grown up with lots of human interaction. The latter is very easy and the former is very difficult. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Yahoo group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 11:34:22 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jenny H [OLD]: Would the doll need to move like a human child? smell like a human child? sound like a human child? be the appropriate size to match its apparent (to the human observer) age. Jay R. Feierman [OLD]: Again, even though you are asking the ethologically-appropriate questions in terms of "releasing stimuli," the question remains unanswerable. If you observe some dogs "playing" with small, furry stuffed animals (children's toys), they treat the small stuffed animals like their puppies, carrying them around, licking them, etc. I suspect that if a doll were just made of some type of smooth plastic, it would not be interacted with in the same way as a small, furry stuffed anima. Sue Bowers: Ha! My beasts rend small, furry stuffed animals to bits within minutes. They do, however, treat real live puppies like precious gifts from the Canine Almighty. Jay R. Feierman: See my previous posting. With my n = 1 observation of my dog, size is the key variable. I have grandchildren frequently in our house who have small furry animals of varying sizes they play with. With the very small furry animals, our dog (a neutered, 30 pound, male poodle-mix about 3 year old) is very gentle with them, carrying them around and licking them constantly. With larger furry animal toys, perhaps the size of an adult rabbit, he opens them like prey and we find the cotton stuffing around the "carcas." From an ethological perspective a furry object is treated as a puppy if it is small and treated like a prey if it is larger. I'm also aware that canines can eat prey that are puppy size. Ordinarily, hormones in the mother is what causes her to treat small sized furry objects as puppies rather than prey. Perhaps the fact that our dog is a neutered male and well fed, he treats all small sized furry animals as puppies. He tends to gently chew on the ears of these puppy surrogates, if they are sticking out. I think the ears are a releasing stimulus for chewing, which is how the umbilical cord is chewed. He never chews the ears off. He also at tends to remove the eyes from the small furry animal toys. He bites on them until they come out. He does not eat the eyes, which are usuall made of plastic. We find them on the floor. I'm not sure what features of the eyes cause this behavior and what this behavior's adaptive value is with a more natural object than a stuffed furry animal toy. However, lots could be learned by studying how dogs play with such toys. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Study Finds Naming Cows Increases Milk Yield From: cissy stamm Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 11:47:29 -0800 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/136995.php given our current discussions, any thoughts on this? cissy Subject: RE: Interspecies communication From: Sue Bowers Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 15:10:23 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Actually, a wagging tail indicates excitement, not necessarily happiness or friendliness. Lots of people have been bitten by tail-wagging dogs. Whether dogs reading humans, humans reading dogs, or another species reading either...it does not matter if the actual behaviour/posture is the same across species, or not. With any species, we can learn what meaning each behaviour *represents*, and that's all that matters...I would assume it is the same for dogs. (Think of a culture where shaking the head from side to side means "Yes". ;-) ~S! From: Jay R. Feierman [mailto:jfeierman@comcast.net] Jay R. Feierman: What is the evidence that "dogs can read human facial expressions"? For example, a dog's wagging tail is similar to a human smile. Humans have figured this out and don't look at a dog's face to know if the dog is happy, as the expressive behaviors that signal happiness (willingness to interact in a friendly way/appeasment, etc) in a dog is the wag of the tail, rather than turning up the corner of the dog's mouth and some contration of the muscles around the eyes. Dog's certainly can read human expressive behaviors, especially in the tone of voice and certain gross body postures. I am very skeptical that dogs can read human facial expressions or learn to do so on their own. So if you have some type of reference to data on this, I'd be very interested. Subject: RE: Object recognition in canines From: Rudy De Meester Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:17:00 +0100 To: 'EJ Haskins' , Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I did a lot of testing with a doll and dogs. I think it very much depends on the dog. Some patients (dogs…) recognise me when I am on television, others don’t, some recognise their own mirror image, others don’t, some react on hardboard dogs or people, some on a dog on a poster….. it all depends on themselves. But what I know is that when they bite the doll, it is in the same way as they probably would bite a child. Rudy Van: EJ Haskins [mailto:ejhaskins@bigpond.com] Verzonden: zondag 1 februari 2009 6:03 Aan: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Onderwerp: Object recognition in canines Back to the start of the recent thread; I am wondering if there is any scientific evidence, as opposed to hearsay and opinion either for or against whether of not a canine animal would recognise a "DOLL" as a "human infant". And/or just how life-like would such a doll need to be to be recognised by a dog as a human infant?? Would the doll need to move like a human child? smell like a human child? sound like a human child? be the appropriate size to match its apparent (to the human observer) age. That is, should a doll that looks like a ten year old be the size of a real 10 year old child, or would a doll that is the size of a 9 month old baby but otherwise looks like a 10 year old be recognised by a dog as a human child?? And just to show my generosity, I am throwing out another interesting topic for a PhD!!! (I'd do it myself, if I had the courage ;-) And didn't still dream abour overdue assignments and exams, etc) I have been searching, with little success, for information regarding object recognition in Canines. Difficult because I do not have access to scholarly articles, and because I'm still not quite sure what key words to type into my searches. I began by looking up child development and yet couldn't find any article which gave the general ages when a human infant is able to recognise models and pictorial representations as the same as the 'real thing'. As in what age is it that a child recognises that a toy dog is a representative of a real dog. -- rather than merely responding to the word "dog". I am a volunteer presenter of the Delta SPOT programme in infants schools here (Safe Pets Out There -- teaching kids safety around domestic animals) and I have a suspicion that some of the kids haven't yet made the conceptual connection. While some have made it TOO strong and are afraid of our model Dalmatian that we take with us :-( Then I searched for --"object recognition" canine -- still without much joy. Now I KNOW I have read that dogs' main sense for recognition is smell and movement. But I can't even find THAT reference. Looking forward to all teh lovely information I will get, Cheers, Jenny H Coffs Austalia Subject: Re: emotional support From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 13:40:54 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Cissy Stamm: So this is an opportune time to ask the question I've struggled with. In the service dog world, there's been on ongoing discussion about the differences between an emotional support dog and a service dog. Jay R. Feierman: That's the first problem - emotional support and service are not two, mutually exclusive categories. Providing emotional support is a service. Ask any counselor who deals with human beings in crisis. Cissy Stamm: The implications are far reaching in terms of civil rights issues because of the language of legislation and/or implementing regulations. Jay R. Feierman: Then the lobbying efforts should be to make giving emotional support a service the same as doing something physical or mechanical. Cissy Stamm: I have not been able to find a cogent definition of "emotional support" or "emotional support animal". Jay R. Feierman: For a starter, an emotional support animal is one that satisfies the emotional needs of a human being through companionship, bonding, etc. If needed, you could say that an "emotional need" of a human being is a need which when satisfied, terminates any further appetitive searching behavior for more such interaction between a particular human and a particular companion dog. Cissy Stamm: In the service dog world the term appears to be a definition of exclusion - meaning an emotional support dog is not a service dog because_____________ (blank filled in depending on assertion). Jay R. Feierman: Again, the issue is political. You need to lobby to change the meaning of service to include emotional support. Cissy Stamm: And of course that equally muddies the waters with regard to defining a service dog. Jay R. Feierman: This reminds me of the distinction that is often made between medical/surgical care and psychiatric/psychological care. Through lobbying of politicians, psychiatric/psychological care in the United States is slowly being considered a part of medical care. This distinction is important in terms of benefits, coverage, co-pays, etc. Cissy Stamm: So that there's no misunderstanding going in, this question is being asked only in the context of those who qualify for civil rights coverage for accommodation under applicable laws/regs which include both physical and mental impairments. What is "emotional support"? Is there a working definition somewhere out there that I've been unable to find? Is there one that can be offered? Thanks. I appreciate anyone's thinking on this and apologize if this is an inappropriate question. Jay R. Feierman: Hopefully, my comments will be useful. I will also tell you an anecdote that may be interesting. I used to be the Psychiatric Medical Director of the Department of Corrections in the state where I live. The Department of Corrections used to have drug sniffing dogs that they would bring into the various prison buildings to sniff our hidden stashes of illegal drugs. In the mental health unit of the prison, these drug sniffing dogs were not allowed because the prisoners in the mental health unit had convinced the court that the drug dogs made them anxious and nervous. Instead, the prison contracted with a service to bring companion dogs in so that the mentally ill prisoners could pet them, etc. One of the prisoners in the mental health unit told me that he knew that these companion dogs were cross trained and would also make some type of signal when they smelled illegal drugs. That was not true. However, the point is that both types of dogs were "service dogs." To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 13:56:17 -0700 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Rudy De Meester: I did a lot of testing with a doll and dogs. I think it very much depends on the dog. Jay R. Feierman: Yes, and the doll. Rudy De Meester: Some patients (dogs…) recognise me when I am on television, others don’t. Jay R. Feierman: How do you know that a dog recognizes you when you are on television? I doubt very much they recognize you visually. They could recognize your voice. There obviously is no odor from the TV. Rudy De Meester: Some recognise their own mirror image, others don’t. Jay R. Feierman: By recognizing their own image, I presume you mean that they recognize that they are the image in the mirror. How do you know this? My understanding is that only the apes and human beings can recognize self in the mirror. This is based on the George Gallup red dot on the nose experiments. The higher apes and humans will try to rub a red dot off of their nose when they look in the mirror. Even the lower primates, such as old and new world monkeys do not try to rub a red dot off of their nose in the mirror. Dogs can at times react to an image of a dog in a mirror. Usually, dogs ignore mirrors. What evidence do you have that the dog image in the mirror that they react to is known to be self rather than just another dog? Rudy De Meester: Some react on hardboard dogs or people, some on a dog on a poster….. it all depends on themselves. Jay R. Feierman: How do you know that a dog reacts to a hardboard dog or a hardboard person as through the image were a dog or a person? Rudy De Meester: But what I know is that when they bite the doll, it is in the same way as they probably would bite a child. Jay R. Feierman: Dogs have many different bites from gentle playing bites to aggressive flesh tearing bites. At times dogs have played gently with children, including softly biting as they play. At other times dogs have engaged in flesh tearing bites on children. There are also two types of flesh tearing bites: predator bites and conspecific agonistic bites. If the dog does not treat either a doll or a small child as either a predator or a conspecific aggressor, it is unlikely that the bite would be flesh tearing. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: cissy stamm Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 13:02:04 -0800 To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hmmm. My ASD was 35 lbs at 8 weeks when he was removed from his littermates and I brought him home to an 8 y.o. 120 lb Caucasian Ovcharka bitch and a 10 lb cat. The only stuffed toy he didn't dismember, regardless of size, was something called a loofa: http://preview.tinyurl.com/aoqcm6 It was white and used as a training reward toy. When he had it, he carried it around gently and seemingly with pride and also poked at the drawer where it was kept . I sent it with him when he went for service dog training. They lost it. I got him a new one when he came back to me. He ignored it. Hmmm again. Is that affiliative behavior toward the original loofa? And of course there's always the variable that lgds lose most if not all of their prey drive as they mature. My CO had zero prey and little food drive at 18 mos when I got her. Now, I'm gonna pose a question to the list that I've struggled with for years and hope it's not inappropriate for discussion here. Cissy On Feb 1, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Jay R. Feierman wrote: > Jay R. Feierman [OLD]: Again, even though you are asking the ethologically-appropriate questions in terms of "releasing stimuli," the question remains unanswerable. If you observe some dogs "playing" with small, furry stuffed animals (children's toys), they treat the small stuffed animals like their puppies, carrying them around, licking them, etc. I suspect that if a doll were just made of some type of smooth plastic, it would not be interacted with in the same way as a small, furry stuffed animal. > > Cissy: A short anecdote. When my ASD was a pup, I took him into dog parks to play and exercise. He had a Jack Russell buddy about a year old with whom he played beautifully and always self-handicapped. The weather turned cold. The JRT came in dressed in a fluffy, fleece coat. My ASD charged over to him, picked him up and tossed him in the air the same way he did with his fleece toys. The JRT wasn't injured, took it in stride, and my ASD never did that again. The observing humans took much longer to bounce back. > > Jay R. Feierman: I'll give you a possibly interesting, n = 1 observation. Our dog treats small stuffed animals as puppies and carries them around and licks them. However, if he finds a stuffed animal that is larger-than-puppy sized, he treats it as prey and dismembers it. We find the "remains" with the stuffing pulled out. I think size is the crucial variable. > > To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 14:14:03 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sue Bowers: Actually, a wagging tail indicates excitement, not necessarily happiness or friendliness. Lots of people have been bitten by tail-wagging dogs. Jay R. Feierman: I am not saying that I don't think you are correct that a wagging tail indicates excitement, rather than just happiness or friendliness. But, how do you know this? What is the data that you interpret to mean this? When you say that lots of people have been bitten by tail-wagging dogs, do you mean flesh-tearing bites. And, was the tail wagging at the time of the flesh-tearing bite? The mood of a dog can change in a second from happiness/friendliness to aggression. The reason I am questioning what you are saying is that other than breathing rate and pupil dilation, human beings do not have a specific body language for general excitement. There are autonomic nervous systems responses that are general, such as increase in heart rate and blood pressure. The heart rate goes up with all types of excitement from aggression to sexual arousal. However, the human smile is not a general signal of excitement. It is specific in terms of meaning happiness/friendliness/willingness to peacefully associate. Expressive behaviors, such as the tail wagging or the human smile, are social signals. What value would it be to have a social signal for general excitement? A conspecific could not tell if the dog were going to sniff it or bite it or mate with it or chase it or try to kill it. Sue Bowers: Whether dogs reading humans, humans reading dogs, or another species reading either...it does not matter if the actual behaviour/posture is the same across species, or not. With any species, we can learn what meaning each behaviour *represents*, and that's all that matters...I would assume it is the same for dogs. Jay R. Feierman: Theoretically, that would be possible. However, we know that each species has species-typical perceptual proclivities and only pays attention to certain features of the environment under natural conditions. That does not mean that one can not train an animal to attend to a stimulus that it would ordinarily ignore, if the stimulus, such as a facial affect on the human, was associated with certain other behavior, such as feeding, mating, etc. Having had lots of domestic and companion animals, I am not convinced that any of them could read my facial affects. However, I never trained any of them to do this specifically. I know that my dog is very sensitive to the tone of my voice and my general posture. The old open-the-umbrella trick makes most dogs submissive. Sue Bowers: Think of a culture where shaking the head from side to side means "Yes". ;-) Jay R. Feierman: Out of curiosity, and being a human ethologist, do you know what culture this is? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: emotional support From: cissy stamm Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 13:21:46 -0800 To: Cecilia Lambert CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca So this is an opportune time to ask the question I've struggled with. In the service dog world, there's been on ongoing discussion about the differences between an emotional support dog and a service dog. The implications are far reaching in terms of civil rights issues because of the language of legislation and/or implementing regulations. I have not been able to find a cogent definition of "emotional support" or "emotional support animal". In the service dog world the term appears to be a definition of exclusion - meaning an emotional support dog is not a service dog because_____________ (blank filled in depending on assertion). And of course that equally muddies the waters with regard to defining a service dog. So that there's no misunderstanding going in, this question is being asked only in the context of those who qualify for civil rights coverage for accommodation under applicable laws/regs which include both physical and mental impairments. What is "emotional support"? Is there a working definition somewhere out there that I've been unable to find? Is there one that can be offered? Thanks. I appreciate anyone's thinking on this and apologize if this is an inappropriate question. Cissy On Feb 1, 2009, at 9:54 AM, Cecilia Lambert wrote: > ...in reference to what Gordon noted about the 16 week "cap" on wiring and early development. i.e. Do you think a skilled person can recover *any* dog to be a decent companion, with the right training, regardless of how they've developed in the first 16 weeks--if the animal can manage a bond with them? Or are domestic dogs likely to be "lost causes" if unhandled and understimulated for the first 4 months? > > I can tell you that one of the volunteers adopted one of Ray's study dogs at Wolf Park. She eventually adopted it out to another home, because the dog did not bond with her as she was expecting. The way that I interpreted this was, the dog did not meet her needs, so she got rid of it. Which may have been better for the dog in the long run. > CeAnn > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.coyoterescue.org > Please visit our gift shop @ > www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue > > > --- On Sun, 2/1/09, cissy stamm wrote: > > From: cissy stamm > Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions > To: "Sue Bowers" > Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca > Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 11:28 AM > > Sue, could you explain how one would be able to identify bonding? It may well have an agreed upon meaning in behavioral/ethological/scientific communities, but I don't know exactly what it means or is. I've read a lot of non-scientific information on the human/animal bond, and I think I've experienced it as have the vast majority of folks who interact with animals in our culture. While I thinking about the very important question you posed I realized although I think I "know" when an animal is bonded to me, I realize I don't know *how* I know. > > Thanks. > > Cissy > On Feb 1, 2009, at 3:55 AM, Sue Bowers wrote: > >> Actually, I was wondering what folks thought *within* a domestic species itself...in reference to what Gordon noted about the 16 week "cap" on wiring and early development. i.e. Do you think a skilled person can recover *any* dog to be a decent companion, with the right training, regardless of how they've developed in the first 16 weeks--if the animal can manage a bond with them? Or are domestic dogs likely to be "lost causes" if unhandled and understimulated for the first 4 months? >> >> The thing I'd always found most interesting about Belyaev's foxes was that the physical traits were linked to tameness. :-) But, that's a whole 'nother subject. >> >> I will look up the Border Collie study; thanks for the lead. :) >> ~Sue! >> >> From: EJ Haskins [mailto:ejhaskins@bigpond.com] >> >> Now, while I'll agree that the hard-wiring theoretically limits the range of responses, do you think that it ever really limits the animal in terms of *practical* behaviour?>> >> >> >> Absolutely!!!''One thing which I thought we all knew is that domestication of animals, whatever else is selected for absolutely changes the animal's behaviour. That is WHY we domesticate species rather than simply farm wild animals. > Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:10:22 -0500 (EST) To: rudydemeester@telenet.be, ejhaskins@bigpond.com, Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca some recognise their own mirror image Could you kindly produce some evidence of such a interesting statement. In all scientific literature I've read - this is not the case. Regards Gordon Butcher UK Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:39:23 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Of, course! As we humans do also!! but in domestic dogs, again their ability to communicate with body-language depends very much on breed. Ranging from the Malamute which looks continually challenging through to the cocker spaniel that looks continually depressed. And that is not even considering the poor docked, over-haired dogs like the Old English Sheepdog ;-( Which can actually be quite expresive if clipped :-) -- with tails they'd be even better ;-) Jenny H Australia Canids communicate with more than just facial expressions, in fact it is mostly achieved by bodily posturing – especially if we are looking at conflict. There is a good book by Brenda Aloff ‘A photographic guide to Canine Body Language’. Gordon Butcher UK Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:45:05 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I suspect that THAT very much depends on genetics too. I know that in humans the 'gene' for whether of not a person who was abused as a child will grow into an abuser themselves has now been identified. Jenny H Actually, I was wondering what folks thought *within* a domestic species itself...in reference to what Gordon noted about the 16 week "cap" on wiring and early development. i.e. Do you think a skilled person can recover *any* dog to be a decent companion, with the right training, regardless of how they've developed in the first 16 weeks--if the animal can manage a bond with them? Or are domestic dogs likely to be "lost causes" if unhandled and understimulated for the first 4 months? ~Sue! Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 15:57:24 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I don't know in that I am not knowledgeable about "body language" in coyotes. I don't think a wagging tail is universally a friendly appeasement signal in all canids as it is in the domestic dog. In cats a laterally moving crook tail can signal readiness to attack, according to Paul Leyhausen in Cat Behavior. Is there a book of the "body-language" of coyotes? Laying the ears flat back, at least on some other mammals, such as horses, is usually a signal of impending aggression. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: Jay R. Feierman Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication A coyote can stand tall, try to make and hold eye contact, lay ears back flat against it's head and wag it's tail. What is he telling me? CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Jay R. Feierman wrote: From: Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: Interspecies communication To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 4:14 PM Sue Bowers: Actually, a wagging tail indicates excitement, not necessarily happiness or friendliness. Lots of people have been bitten by tail-wagging dogs. Jay R. Feierman: I am not saying that I don't think you are correct that a wagging tail indicates excitement, rather than just happiness or friendliness. But, how do you know this? What is the data that you interpret to mean this? When you say that lots of people have been bitten by tail-wagging dogs, do you mean flesh-tearing bites. And, was the tail wagging at the time of the flesh-tearing bite? The mood of a dog can change in a second from happiness/friendliness to aggression. The reason I am questioning what you are saying is that other than breathing rate and pupil dilation, human beings do not have a specific body language for general excitement. There are autonomic nervous systems responses that are general, such as increase in heart rate and blood pressure. The heart rate goes up with all types of excitement from aggression to sexual arousal. However, the human smile is not a general signal of excitement. It is specific in terms of meaning happiness/friendliness/willingness to peacefully associate. Expressive behaviors, such as the tail wagging or the human smile, are social signals. What value would it be to have a social signal for general excitement? A conspecific could not tell if the dog were going to sniff it or bite it or mate with it or chase it or try to kill it. Sue Bowers: Whether dogs reading humans, humans reading dogs, or another species reading either...it does not matter if the actual behaviour/posture is the same across species, or not. With any species, we can learn what meaning each behaviour *represents*, and that's all that matters...I would assume it is the same for dogs. Jay R. Feierman: Theoretically, that would be possible. However, we know that each species has species-typical perceptual proclivities and only pays attention to certain features of the environment under natural conditions. That does not mean that one can not train an animal to attend to a stimulus that it would ordinarily ignore, if the stimulus, such as a facial affect on the human, was associated with certain other behavior, such as feeding, mating, etc. Having had lots of domestic and companion animals, I am not convinced that any of them could read my facial affects. However, I never trained any of them to do this specifically. I know that my dog is very sensitive to the tone of my voice and my general posture. The old open-the-umbrella trick makes most dogs submissive. Sue Bowers: Think of a culture where shaking the head from side to side means "Yes". ;-) Jay R. Feierman: Out of curiosity, and being a human ethologist, do you know what culture this is? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 10:03:19 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I'm with you there, Cissy. But thinking, we interpret it as 'bonding" when the dog looks to us for *leadership*, as opposed to merely the supplier of creature comforts :-) And also when the dog seeks out our company for more than access to creature comforts. (We even recognise that in other animals and children, and refer to it as "cupboard love".) How you'd define it in behavioural rterms I am less certain of :-( Cheers, Jenny H Sue, could you explain how one would be able to identify bonding? . . . I realized although I think I "know" when an animal is bonded to me, I realize I don't know *how* I know. Thanks. Cissy Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: Peter Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 10:15:12 +1100 To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca No. I have no reference. Just a life-time of living with multiple dogs :-) For instance, just yesterday, my Kelpie Scott was trying to inveigle me into play with him. I was reading, and mostly looked up at him as he approached me -- then it was "fluffy bone" (which by the way I'm absolutely sure he doesn't see as a real bone :-) was dropped into my lap. But then I caught him out of the corner of my eye, as I read, come around the corner, look at me, see that I was NOT looking at him, and her retired to under the table again to play with his 'bone; by himself'. I DO have references to birds being acutely aware of human gaze direction, if you are interested. Jenny H Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 2:42 AM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication Jenny H: I don't think that it at all surprising that humans can read dog facial expressions and that dogs can read human facial expressions. nor that different species of canids can read each other's expressions. Jay R. Feierman: What is the evidence that "dogs can read human facial expressions"? For example, a dog's wagging tail is similar to a human smile. Humans have figured this out and don't look at a dog's face to know if the dog is happy, as the expressive behaviors that signal happiness (willingness to interact in a friendly way/appeasment, etc) in a dog is the wag of the tail, rather than turning up the corner of the dog's mouth and some contration of the muscles around the eyes. Dog's certainly can read human expressive behaviors, especially in the tone of voice and certain gross body postures. I am very skeptical that dogs can read human facial expressions or learn to do so on their own. So if you have some type of reference to data on this, I'd be very interested. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 15:21:06 -0800 (PST) To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca There is not much out there. My two Bibles when I first developed my interest in coyotes were, Behavior of Wolves, Dogs and Related Canids by Michael W. Fox and Coyotes Biology, Behavior and Management edited by Marc Bekoff. I also leaned a lot about the social behavior of coyotes by reading God's Dog by Hope Ryden. Information about coyotes was very sparse in the 1980's. Then, six coyote puppies were born at Wolf Park and I lost my interest in wolves. Even after all of these years, I find myself returing to those books for answers to questions that may crop up. There are a lot of pictures in Micahel's book that show different body posturing. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Jay R. Feierman wrote: From: Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: Interspecies communication To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 5:57 PM I don't know in that I am not knowledgeable about "body language" in coyotes. I don't think a wagging tail is universally a friendly appeasement signal in all canids as it is in the domestic dog. In cats a laterally moving crook tail can signal readiness to attack, according to Paul Leyhausen in Cat Behavior. Is there a book of the "body-language" of coyotes? Laying the ears flat back, at least on some other mammals, such as horses, is usually a signal of impending aggression. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: Jay R. Feierman Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication A coyote can stand tall, try to make and hold eye contact, lay ears back flat against it's head and wag it's tail. What is he telling me? CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Jay R. Feierman wrote: From: Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: Interspecies communication To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 4:14 PM Sue Bowers: Actually, a wagging tail indicates excitement, not necessarily happiness or friendliness. Lots of people have been bitten by tail-wagging dogs. Jay R. Feierman: I am not saying that I don't think you are correct that a wagging tail indicates excitement, rather than just happiness or friendliness. But, how do you know this? What is the data that you interpret to mean this? When you say that lots of people have been bitten by tail-wagging dogs, do you mean flesh-tearing bites. And, was the tail wagging at the time of the flesh-tearing bite? The mood of a dog can change in a second from happiness/friendliness to aggression. The reason I am questioning what you are saying is that other than breathing rate and pupil dilation, human beings do not have a specific body language for general excitement. There are autonomic nervous systems responses that are general, such as increase in heart rate and blood pressure. The heart rate goes up with all types of excitement from aggression to sexual arousal. However, the human smile is not a general signal of excitement. It is specific in terms of meaning happiness/friendliness/willingness to peacefully associate. Expressive behaviors, such as the tail wagging or the human smile, are social signals. What value would it be to have a social signal for general excitement? A conspecific could not tell if the dog were going to sniff it or bite it or mate with it or chase it or try to kill it. Sue Bowers: Whether dogs reading humans, humans reading dogs, or another species reading either...it does not matter if the actual behaviour/posture is the same across species, or not. With any species, we can learn what meaning each behaviour *represents*, and that's all that matters...I would assume it is the same for dogs. Jay R. Feierman: Theoretically, that would be possible. However, we know that each species has species-typical perceptual proclivities and only pays attention to certain features of the environment under natural conditions. That does not mean that one can not train an animal to attend to a stimulus that it would ordinarily ignore, if the stimulus, such as a facial affect on the human, was associated with certain other behavior, such as feeding, mating, etc. Having had lots of domestic and companion animals, I am not convinced that any of them could read my facial affects. However, I never trained any of them to do this specifically. I know that my dog is very sensitive to the tone of my voice and my general posture. The old open-the-umbrella trick makes most dogs submissive. Sue Bowers: Think of a culture where shaking the head from side to side means "Yes". ;-) Jay R. Feierman: Out of curiosity, and being a human ethologist, do you know what culture this is? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Study Finds Naming Cows Increases Milk Yield From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 10:25:20 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Lovely. Thankyou. Yes, I would expect that too. Just as i think talking to your chooks (aka chickens) probably helps prevent 'putting them off the lay' when you interact with them. Cheers, Jenny H > http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/136995.php > > given our current discussions, any thoughts on this? > > cissy > Subject: Re: Study Finds Naming Cows Increases Milk Yield From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 10:31:06 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Also, one may tend to name an animal with whom one relates more. > Well, exactly!! But can one actually name an animal and then NOT relate to it? I know that in human societies names have been considered magical -- and i suspect that this is because they imply so MUCH more thaqn simple identification. (references if you want them -- not least among these references is teh Judeo belief that one must not know, let alone utter then name of God. Funny belief that one, I think). Jenny H Coffs Australia Jay R. Feierman: The study says, "Almost half - 46 per cent - said the cows on their farm were called by name. Those that called their cows by name had a 258 litre higher milk yield than those who did not." Unless cows were randomly assigned to be named or not named, one can not determine cause and effect from a simple correlation. There may be lots of other variables involved. Also, one may tend to name an animal with whom one relates more. The naming may not be the important variable. Subject: RE: Interspecies communication From: Johnny Angel CDBC Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 18:32:35 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca The only emotional condition in both canines and felines show in tail wagging is emotional conflict. This is also true of almost all back and forth movements in animal communication. When an animal is in conflict it is feeling pulled in to two different directions at the same time in that instant of time. It would like to move forward and at the same time retreat simultaneously or move to the left or move to the right. Each cancels each other out, the animal remains where it is but in a state of tension. The urge to remain is much more complex. Johnny Angel CDBC, PDT, PDBC I don't know in that I am not knowledgeable about "body language" in coyotes. I don't think a wagging tail is universally a friendly appeasement signal in all canids as it is in the domestic dog. In cats a laterally moving crook tail can signal readiness to attack, according to Paul Leyhausen in Cat Behavior. Is there a book of the "body-language" of coyotes? Laying the ears flat back, at least on some other mammals, such as horses, is usually a signal of impending aggression. Regards, Jay R. Feierman A coyote can stand tall, try to make and hold eye contact, lay ears back flat against it's head and wag it's tail. What is he telling me? CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Jay R. Feierman wrote: From: Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: Interspecies communication To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 4:14 PM Sue Bowers: Actually, a wagging tail indicates excitement, not necessarily happiness or friendliness. Lots of people have been bitten by tail-wagging dogs. Jay R. Feierman: I am not saying that I don't think you are correct that a wagging tail indicates excitement, rather than just happiness or friendliness. But, how do you know this? What is the data that you interpret to mean this? When you say that lots of people have been bitten by tail-wagging dogs, do you mean flesh-tearing bites. And, was the tail wagging at the time of the flesh-tearing bite? The mood of a dog can change in a second from happiness/friendliness to aggression. The reason I am questioning what you are saying is that other than breathing rate and pupil dilation, human beings do not have a specific body language for general excitement. There are autonomic nervous systems responses that are general, such as increase in heart rate and blood pressure. The heart rate goes up with all types of excitement from aggression to sexual arousal. However, the human smile is not a general signal of excitement. It is specific in terms of meaning happiness/friendliness/willingness to peacefully associate. Expressive behaviors, such as the tail wagging or the human smile, are social signals. What value would it be to have a social signal for general excitement? A conspecific could not tell if the dog were going to sniff it or bite it or mate with it or chase it or try to kill it. Sue Bowers: Whether dogs reading humans, humans reading dogs, or another species reading either...it does not matter if the actual behaviour/posture is the same across species, or not. With any species, we can learn what meaning each behaviour *represents*, and that's all that matters...I would assume it is the same for dogs. Jay R. Feierman: Theoretically, that would be possible. However, we know that each species has species-typical perceptual proclivities and only pays attention to certain features of the environment under natural conditions. That does not mean that one can not train an animal to attend to a stimulus that it would ordinarily ignore, if the stimulus, such as a facial affect on the human, was associated with certain other behavior, such as feeding, mating, etc. Having had lots of domestic and companion animals, I am not convinced that any of them could read my facial affects. However, I never trained any of them to do this specifically. I know that my dog is very sensitive to the tone of my voice and my general posture. The old open-the-umbrella trick makes most dogs submissive. Sue Bowers: Think of a culture where shaking the head from side to side means "Yes". ;-) Jay R. Feierman: Out of curiosity, and being a human ethologist, do you know what culture this is? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 10:35:37 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca And Grotty Scotty plays with his fluffy teddy bear exacrtly as though it were his own pup, Yet he hates small fluffy dogs :-( I suspect if he saw a real baby pup he would crawl under the table with his tail between his legs. Jenny H Ha! My beasts rend small, furry stuffed animals to bits within minutes. They do, however, treat real live puppies like precious gifts from the Canine Almighty. ~S! Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 10:46:13 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Some dogs are what is known as 'anyone's dogs'. These are the dogs that will happily go off with strangers. not what most people want in their pet dogs -- although they tend to like the behaviour in 'other' dogs ;-=) This is NOT considered good by old Bushies here who were very jealous of their dogs and wouldn't allow strangers to pat or fondle them. A wonderful book about an 'unbonded dog' is "Red Dog' by Louis de Bernieres. It is a true story of a Red Cloud Kelpie, who was beloved by the outback community of Western Australia and used to 'hitch hike' with truckies about that State. (And his original owner, who is apparently not known, was probably happy to be jack of him.) Cheers, Jenny H Australia I can tell you that one of the volunteers adopted one of Ray's study dogs at Wolf Park. She eventually adopted it out to another home, because the dog did not bond with her as she was expecting. The way that I interpreted this was, the dog did not meet her needs, so she got rid of it. Which may have been better for the dog in the long run. CeAnn Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: Chris Redenbach Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 19:11:01 -0500 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Here are some anecdotes to use for generating additional thoughts in terms of object recognition. They also have some bearing on "reading" the behaviors of other species. I will try to relate them accurately. Sorry this post is too long. I had a male Bouvier whose favorite hobby was chasing a flashlight beam. The flashlight I owned was a bright yellow rectangular shaped waterproof plastic thing with a rounded protrusion on the end where the bulb was housed. My dog, Copernicus, would seek out this flashlight in the house and bark until I played with it. He would also easily search for this favored toy if I said, "Find the light" He was also known to try to grab the flash units off cameras at dog shows. One day in a college classroom, I did an experiment just for the fun of it. I drew 4 outlines on the blackboard in 4 different colors (yellow, red, green, light blue) and in four different shapes (triangle, circle, square, rectangle). They were scaled to replicate the actual size of the flashlight. I made sure to draw the triangle in yellow so as to be able to distinguish any identification based upon color from one based on shape. When finished, I indicated the shapes on the board with a sweep of my hand to the dog and asked, "Find the light" and again ran my hand at a steady speed across the drawings. Copernicus oriented to the drawings and looked at each and sniffed at each, periodically pausing and looking quizzically at me, but quite willing to continue his investigation of the drawings as I urged him to Find the light. After checking each drawing twice, and the yellow triangle more than twice, he started poking his nose excitedly at the rectangular shaped drawing which happened to be red while at the same time bouncing his front feet up and down as if in anticipation of our usual game. I was full of questions about this but had no way to answer them. On another occasion, I took this same dog to a dog activity fun day which had lure coursing. The lure was a white, elongated plastic bag run on a cord in such a way that movement caused it to fill with air and give it the approximate shape and size of a large rabbit. Copernicus watched with excitement as other dogs chased the lure around the course. When we got to the starting point, I held him back until the signal came. He was highly motivated and bouncing vertically as I held him. When I was told to release him, he took off like a canon shot and managed to grab the lure just before the first turn and drag it back to me, all the while shaking it (it's not supposed to happen like that but he must have been faster out of the blocks than sight hounds apparently since no other dog that day caught the lure {or it could have been a lure operator anticipating a Bouvier to be slow). Copernicus was totally social with other dogs and totally accustomed to working amicably side by side with all sizes and shapes of dogs. At the group obedience class a few days after the lure coursing event, he grabbed and tried to kill a Norfolk terrier out of the blue (terrier wasn't even aware of C's presence and was only trotting along with his owner). We rescued the terrier who was badly wounded with one large crushing bite to the ribs resulting in several broken ribs and severe soft tissue damage. My dog was pretty unemotional until the terrier's owner attacked him. It was quite similar to my cat whom I watched catch a mouse in the leaves a few minutes ago...very quick and unemotional and a very quick 1 shake and kill. The poor little terrier recovered (the mouse got eaten). But Copernicus had somehow decided that small long bodied, short legged dogs were prey. He continued to attempt to capture any short long dog. But he remained totally social with similarly sized small dogs whose builds were more square and upright, like toy poodles or Welsh terriers. It took me many months of purchasing stuffed animals that were "varmint" shaped, tying them to strings so I could pull them around using pulleys, etc and teaching him that he was not to chase after any varmint shaped dogs. Having earlier read some classical ethology, I attempted to attribute all of this to the combination of some possible genetic recognition of varmint shaped animals (like weasels, rats, etc), the concept of stimulus summation regarding what kinds of things specifically triggered the behavior, and the over the top reinforcement provided by the lure coursing. Eventually we worked through the problem. (BTW this dog never showed interest in playing ball or frisbee, etc) In response to some of the other posts: I have seen many dogs who regard lifelike statues and even two dimensional life size cardboard cutouts with a mild startle, alert, investigate response (or bark frantically while backpedaling, or growl) which, I'm guessing, would be caused by the confusing combination of lifelike shapes, sizes, colors, etc with elements that don't fit at all (no animal odor, no movement, no heat, etc). Lucy had a son who was an avid TV fan. I placed him in a home with a large screen TV and it took him a long time to get over crotch sniffing the people on the screen. Many of my dogs have reacted with alert suspicion to posters of dogs who have big staring eyes. And I've seen many a dog sniff rears, ears and mouths of statue dogs and posture towards them and have a puzzled look before they marked the statue or turned away. One young dog refused to go into Petsmart one day because of the giant St Bernard statue used as a display. One of the dogs was highly disturbed when we passed the store front of a wig shop which had three shelves of disembodied heads displaying wigs, all at dog eye level. He would look and posture and sniff and turn away then look back really quickly as if he were concerned that one of those heads had moved. I also have a Bouvier, Lucy, who watches TV. She is very selective about her behavior towards what she sees. She rarely gets excited or barks at humans on TV unless they are engaged in violent acts. But with animals, she is quite vigilant and just watches if they behave calmly but gets very agitated and aggressive towards them when there is turmoil. So the other day she was watching the AQHA working cow horse championships and was quiet during the dressage part but was right in there leaping and barking while the horse was working the cow. She has also obeyed dog trainers on TV and then gotten quite frustrated when they gave food rewards to the dog on TV and not to her and she started nudging their hands on the screen. The only animal that I've seen her afraid of was some sort of pre-dinosaur large reptile. Now normally, she reacts to dinosaurs just like other animals but this particular animal caused her to slowly back away from the TV growling until she was sitting with her rump on the edge of the sofa. I was just wondering why she had that atypical reaction when the show's narrator announced that this primitive species had leg joints and support system that moved differently than later dinosaurs, which moved like contemporary quadrupeds. She is 15 now and sits closer the to TV than before, but her reactions are the same. When she is gone, I don't know who will defend our household against intruders entering through the magic portal on the wall. With pregnant owners of somewhat rowdy, predatory or even exceedingly curious dogs, I suggest they acquire one of the those life like baby dolls that make noises, move limbs, drink from bottles, urinate and whatever. and then borrow some lightly soiled baby clothes belonging to a live baby of a friend and get the dog accustomed to at least the size, shape, odors and the accompanying human behaviors of carrying and cuddling something like that in the arms and attending to it a great deal. I never assumed that the dog would think it real but when the real baby arrived the dog would simply be more accustomed to shapes, sizes and behaviors ....and that the owner would have pre-taught the dog some manners and calm around many of the stimuli as well as learning how to get a correct response from a dog while carrying a baby instead of a handful of treats. In any case, perhaps some ethologists would comment on classical concepts like stimulus summation and what contemporary concepts have superseded or qualified these classical ideas. This stuff is endlessly fascinating. Chris Redenbach CDBC Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:19:54 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca On the other hand my daughter's Min-foxie (not very much larger at all than a Chihuahua) became very maternal and defensive of my grandson's (ghastly, cartoon, talking) teddy bear that was about three times as big as the little dog, when she had a phantom pregnancy ;-) Maybe it was the (awful) big googly eyes??? I had a(n autistic) German Shepherd year ago who used to try to suckle chickens (baby chooks, fluffy little things). One of the funniest things I ever did see. My present Kelpie responded very badly to a life sized concrete statue of an Italian and his Lagotto (at a stopping place on the highway here called "New Italy") whereas my German Shepherds without exception have no more reacted to it than they would to a pile of concrete rubble. One of my German Shepherds, who failed as a Police Dog because he would NOT attack ("He only wants to love the villain up"), went bananas when he saw a much smaller than life-sized statue of a person (admittedly it was at the entrance to a shop smelling of incense). I personally don't think fluffiness comes into it. My friend's Cattle Dog dismembers ANYTHING dismemberable ranging from fluffy toys through tennis balls and rubber balls to wooden objects such as sticks. He's perfect well behaved with kids and with other dogs, which is rather unusual for a Cattle dog. But Blue is a very special and wonderful dog --even though he is NOT mine :-) He is fine with the family chooks (chickens and puts then away in their yard at night, and works their few steers for them with no problems. His only lapse from perfection that I know about was drowning a neighbours duck in their pond. Blue held it, with his paw under water :-( Oh, and he doesn't like strange men trying to pat him -- he does the typical Cattle dog behaviour -- he lets then into the yard, but then won't let them out again until the family give their OK. Cheers, Jenny H Australia From an ethological perspective a furry object is treated as a puppy if it is small and treated like a prey if it is larger. Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:27:29 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca rudy, do you think that was because the dog thought of the dolas a human child or simply a factor of the shape of the doll and the dog attacking a novel object??? Sincerly, Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Rudy De Meester To: 'EJ Haskins' ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:17 AM Subject: RE: Object recognition in canines I did a lot of testing with a doll and dogs. I think it very much depends on the dog. Some patients (dogs…) recognise me when I am on television, others don’t, some recognise their own mirror image, others don’t, some react on hardboard dogs or people, some on a dog on a poster….. it all depends on themselves. But what I know is that when they bite the doll, it is in the same way as they probably would bite a child. Rudy Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:44:24 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I don't think a wagging tail is a universal signal of appeasement or happiness in domestic dogd. It can vary with tail carriage and speed of wagging. It CAN signal an incipient attack! Ears back in dogs is an appeaemtn soignal -- it can preceed a defensive attack if the dog is cornered. But is is a frequent behaviour in bitches (I usen't to like bitches because they tended to put their ears back a lot.) But my present Kelpie male also often puts his ears back -- it usually means he is about to take off like the wind after a thrown ball :-) Look at his tail -- if it's low and waging furiously it's a ball he's waiting ofr, if it is tucked between his legs it means an appeasement gesture. On hte other hand my German Shepherd girls rarely put their ears back!! The variety in body language and facial expressions in domestic dogs is very much a function of our selection durinf domestication-- and the purpose for which different breeds were developed. Jenny H Coffs Australia I don't know in that I am not knowledgeable about "body language" in coyotes. I don't think a wagging tail is universally a friendly appeasement signal in all canids as it is in the domestic dog. In cats a laterally moving crook tail can signal readiness to attack, according to Paul Leyhausen in Cat Behavior. Is there a book of the "body-language" of coyotes? Laying the ears flat back, at least on some other mammals, such as horses, is usually a signal of impending aggression. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions PS From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:47:04 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Or in unrelated humans where we call them "fair weather friends" :-) Jenny H (We even recognise that in other animals and children, and refer to it as "cupboard love".) Subject: Re: Study Finds Naming Cows Increases Milk Yield PS From: Peter Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:52:26 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca OR relate to an animal and NOT name it??? Jenny H Well, exactly!! But can one actually name an animal and then NOT relate to it? Subject: Re: Study Finds Naming Cows Increases Milk Yield From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:59:29 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Yes. I suspect so :-) I'm sure Jonica Newby would agree, too ("The Animal attraction" also published as "Pact for Survival".) Cheers, Jenny H Is *not* relating to animals considered a form of attachment disorder? (she says only half joking). Cissy Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 12:27:07 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Thank Chris. Very interesting. It reminds me of some years ago when my vet had a life-sized poster of a Labrador facing the entry door. SOME dogs startled at it, before determining that it wasn't a real dog. But the majority ignored it!! My mad Kelpie ,of course, growled at it; my German Shepherds were totally uninterested in it. This whole subject makes it very hard, I feel, to determine if the "doll test" tests for reaction to human children or simply to novel objects. For example, do you think a dog brought up with dolls but not children might ignore the doll, but attack children? Or would introducing a dog to dolls make it better behaved around children? Or is any apparent similarity in their reactions to both dolls and children purely coincidental? Is a dog who knows to NOT play with dolls and tear them apart likely to generalise this to children?? I do remember a dreadful case here years and years ago where a Staffie that was used to running around and tearing up fluffy toys, grabbed the baby out of its carry-cot and ran around the back yard shaking it -- and killed it. Which is the main reason why I always recommend that people never let their dogs dismember children's toys. Actually being a pacifist, I don't like to see dogs killing anything -- except for knotted ropes :-) And then I recommend that people teach their dog that such a toy is the ONLY toy that dog may kill. My dogs must stick to the bones I give them. And I also ONLY use squeaky toys to teach a release -- in my experience if a dog plays with squeaky toys it is also happy to play with squeaky little animals. Now why doesn't the "temperament test" check the dog's behaviour to a crying doll????? Wouldn't THAT be a better test than the reaction to a stiff-legged doll bonked up and down in front of it, or waved on the end of a stick?? Just throw the "crying doll" down in front of the dog and see what happens. Not to mention using clock-work or battery operated dolls or fluffy toys. If life-sized dolls (and animated dolls and toys) weren't so fearfully expensive :-( I might try some investigations myself . Come on you Academics -- don't any of you have a student waiting for a good PhD topic -- WITH university funding :-) Cheers, Jenny H Coffs Australia (Not even a University town , though we DO have a purported Uni here -- a secondary and tertiary collage combined. No Post Grad courses. But BAs in Surfboard Making) From: "Chris Redenbach" > Copernicus oriented to the drawings and looked at each and sniffed at > each, periodically pausing and looking quizzically at me, but quite > willing to continue his investigation of the drawings as I urged him > to Find the light. After checking each drawing twice, and the yellow > triangle more than twice, he started poking his nose excitedly at the > rectangular shaped drawing which happened to be red while at the same > time bouncing his front feet up and down as if in anticipation of our > usual game. I was full of questions about this but had no way to > answer them. . . . Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 18:27:30 -0700 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Jenny: I don't think a wagging tail is a universal signal of appeasement or happiness in domestic dogs. Jay R. Feierman: Are you giving a personal opinion based on your own experience or are there actual data to support what you are saying? I'm not suggesting that you are wrong, only asking what is the source of what you are saying. That raises another question. What is the best source for the ethogram of the domestic dog? Is there a book or a good article on the various expressive behaviors (body language) in the domestic dog and what they mean? Jenny: It can vary with tail carriage and speed of wagging. It CAN signal an incipient attack! Jay R. Feierman: Again, are these your personal observations and opinions or are they the result of some type of systematic and published study? What you are saying goes against my own personal observations of dogs. The carriage of a dog's tail is a resting position. Even dogs, such as Lhasa Apsos, who usually carry their tail high, can wag their tail when are happy or when signaling friendliness. I am very dubious that lateral tail wagging at the frequency that usually signals happiness and willingness to interact in a friendly way would also signal an incipient attack. These are expressive behaviors. How could the same behavior be signaling opposite intentions? That does not mean that a dog can be wagging its tail one second and then the circumstance changes and suddenly it attacks a second or two later. I'm presuming that is not what you mean. Jenny: Ears back in dogs is an appeasement signal -- it can preceed a defensive attack if the dog is cornered. Jay R. Feierman: Hmm. The human smile is often called an appeasement signal, as it signals happiness and friendly willingness to interact. As such, it often disarms someone who may not be friendly. That's the origin of a "disarming smile." Smiling is seen more often in human females than in human males. It is also seen less often in high socially dominant people than in low socially dominant people. Many politicians smile a lot because it gets other people to like them more. The usual interpretation of an animal putting its ears back when agonism is imminent is so that the ears do not get bitten. Are you suggesting that when dogs show friendly appeasement, they put their ears back? Jenny: But it is a frequent behaviour in bitches (I usen't to like bitches because they tended to put their ears back a lot.) But my present Kelpie male also often puts his ears back -- it usually means he is about to take off like the wind after a thrown ball :-) Look at his tail -- if it's low and waging furiously it's a ball he's waiting ofr, if it is tucked between his legs it means an appeasement gesture. Jay R. Feierman: My observation of the tucked between the leg behavior of a dog's tail is that it is done when the dog is behaving submissively. Jenny: On the other hand my German Shepherd girls rarely put their ears back!! Jay R. Feierman: Okay. I do not know the meaning of a dog putting his or her ears back. Jenny: The variety in body language and facial expressions in domestic dogs is very much a function of our selection during domestication-- and the purpose for which different breeds were developed. Jay R. Feierman: Hmm. Are you suggesting that different breeds of dogs have different "body languages" with which they signal a specific mood (readiness to act)? In humans there are some species-universal body languages, such as the different facial affects (happy, sad, angry, disgust, surprise, fear, and neutral). These are species-universal in that all humans all over the world know what these various facial affects mean. In contrast there are also many non-verbal human gestures that mean different things in different societies. These are socially learned and are not species universal. Desmond Morris has a book on this called Gestures. However, one has to socially learn gestures. They are not acquired from birth through DNA. When you say that body language and facial expressions in domestic dogs is very much a function of our selection during domestication, are there different body languages that mean different things in different breeds of dogs? If so, that would be very interesting. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: Tricia Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:42:46 -0800 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca <<<>>> You can watch hours and hours of video or watch dogs in action to see that the tail wag can have multiple meanings. Ever see a dog doing tracking or looking for a downed bird? Ever see a dog's tail as it is about to aggress on another dog? Hours and hours of video and pictures can provide the information about the tail and its language. Brenda Aloff and others have books made up of just pictures. Many dog behavior people have whole libraries of dogs on video that they have worked with. Not in academia of course. In the real world though. Tricia Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: Simon Gadbois Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:54:13 -0400 To: Tricia , Applied Ethology List > Tricia: Hours and hours of video and pictures can provide the information about the tail and its language. Brenda Aloff and others have books made up of just pictures. Many dog behavior people have whole libraries of dogs on video that they have worked with. > > Not in academia of course. In the real world though. Simon Gadbois: Sure, in academia Tricia, what you described there is "classical" ethology. At the Canadian Centre for Wolf Research we had an amazing library of thousands of hours of tapes from 1973 to 2006, the whole life history of a pack (many generations), including in-den shots. That is precisely what ethologists do and work with. I don't understand your comment. Observational data is precisely what we work with. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: Tricia Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:57:52 -0800 To: Simon Gadbois CC: Applied Ethology List Yes. There is a bit of misunderstanding about what science encompasses these days. Many people want a repeatable lab setting before accepting observations. Tricia On Feb 1, 2009, at 5:54 PM, Simon Gadbois wrote: > > >> Tricia: Hours and hours of video and pictures can provide the information about the tail and its language. Brenda Aloff and others have books made up of just pictures. Many dog behavior people have whole libraries of dogs on video that they have worked with. >> >> Not in academia of course. In the real world though. > > > Simon Gadbois: Sure, in academia Tricia, what you described there is "classical" ethology. At the Canadian Centre for Wolf Research we had an amazing library of thousands of hours of tapes from 1973 to 2006, the whole life history of a pack (many generations), including in-den shots. That is precisely what ethologists do and work with. I don't understand your comment. Observational data is precisely what we work with. Subject: research and applied sciences From: "John R. Lane" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 19:03:39 -0800 (PST) To: Applied Ethology List --- On Mon, 2/2/09, Tricia wrote in part in part: Yes. There is a bit of misunderstanding about what science encompasses these days. Many people want a repeatable lab setting before accepting observations. JOHN L: Thank you for clarifying Tricia, I think there is often a basic misunderstanding of exactly what a repeatable lab setting is for. A repeatable lab setting is a set up for simplifying to the least variable conditions possible. This is so you can study one aspect under as near to absolutely controlled settings as possible. Nothing more. As an example from behavioral science perspective: While a research or experimental behaviour analyst does a large degree of their work in the laboratory an applied behavior analyst actually does almost all of of their work in, as you put, it the real world. Many of the hypotheses of an applied behavior analyst are developed, data collected, studied, peer reviewed in the real world. This is often with the help of the research scientist in the lab setting doing experiments to help validate. This type of cooperation between the research scientist in the laboratory and the applied scientist and/or the trainer in the field "real world" I believe exists across many fields of behavior science. As Simon said ethologists collect data in "the real world". Yet I know that a number of canine endocrinologists, a subject Simon also teaches, perform lab experiments in order to help validate Simons' hypothesis. There is cooperation and collaboration between the two branches of the discipline as there is in all branches of behavior science. I have really been enjoying this list since the latest round of discussions started. Simon and I were recently bemoaning the break up of the original of this list some years back between trainers and scientists and that we felt that both sides lost so much when it happened. Lets not have it happen again through misunderstandings that don't need to be. We both have so much to learn from and contribute to each other. Regards John L. Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication: Zoomorphia From: JVKohl Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:19:01 -0500 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Jay R. Feierman wrote: > **... we know that each species has species-typical perceptual proclivities and only pays attention to certain features of the environment under natural conditions. That does not mean that one can not train an animal to attend to a stimulus that it would ordinarily ignore, if the stimulus, such as a facial affect on the human, was associated with certain other behavior, such as feeding, mating, etc. Gibbons, D.L. (1989) Unusual case: Sex in the woods. /Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality,/ 23, 10(Oct), 63. Quote:s: "Cindy, who was menstruating... had gone alone to a portable commode hidden in a thicket to change her tampon, unaware that a young stag was nearby... Smelling her menstrual secretions, the deer became sexually aroused. He bounded through the trees and knocked Cindy to the ground. Then while prancing up and down with his forefoot on her shoulder, the sexually excited deer sprinkled her with semen." Chandora, D.B. (1989) Unusual case: Accidental zoomorphism. /Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality,/ 23, 4(Apr), 108. My notes: TWO YEAR OLD GIRL RAPED BY THE FAMILY'S PET DOG (A SCHNAUZER) RECTAL INTERCOURSE LASTING 10-15 MIN. ZOOMORPHISM: THE TENDENCY OF WILD OR DOMESTIC ANIMALS TO REACT TO OTHER SPECIES AS IF THEY WERE MEMBERS OF THEIR OWN SPECIES. MALE DOGS TEND TO HUNCH (SEXUALLY) ON THE LEG OR THE ARM OF THE OWNER DUE TO THEIR SENSE OF SMELL, ESPECIALLY DURING THE MENSTRUAL PERIOD. If Jay is correct in his assumptions about what *we* know, is someone training animals to "rape" women and children? I think not! These two reports suggest there are cross-species responses to olfactory/pheromonal input. If each species actually has species-typical perceptual proclivities and only pays attention to certain features of the environment under natural conditions, does having a member of another species in the woods or in the home mean their/our environment is unnatural? Jay R. Feierman added*:** *Having had lots of domestic and companion animals, I am not convinced that any of them could read my facial affects. However, I never trained any of them to do this specifically. I know that my dog is very sensitive to the tone of my voice and my general posture. I think that Jay's dog could be responding to changes in natural body odor that vary with tone of voice and general posture, or to odor associations with food rewards previously associated with tone of voice and general posture during animal training. Olfactory/pheromonal input and conditioning of the animals response to chemical cues may be an alternative approach to what Jay thinks we all know about species-typical perceptual proclivities. All species pay attention to olfactory/pheromonal input--typically, even when the input comes from other species. James V. Kohl Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:05:30 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sue, Thanks, I did not know that. I found a lot of articles about the Bulgarian "yes" and "no" body language on a Google search, which can be found here http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=bulgaria+head+yes+no&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=bulgaria+head+yes+no&fp=3WTwdsC3GPc. I had presumed wrongly that the "yes" and "no" head nods were culturally universal, as in all of my world travels I had not seen it to mean the opposite. Just for amusement I used to believe that another cultural universal was that women pee sitting or squatting down and men pee by standing up. However, when I was in Micronesia on one of the remote atolls and was with a group of men, they laughed at me when I first arrived there when they saw me peeing in the bushes standing up. They all motioned with to me with their hands to squat. I then noticed that this is what all the men did. Live and learn. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To Join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Bowers To: Jay R. Feierman Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 4:57 PM Subject: RE: Interspecies communication ;-) http://tinyurl.com/bqnqex From: Jay R. Feierman [mailto:jfeierman@comcast.net] Sue Bowers: Think of a culture where shaking the head from side to side means "Yes". ;-) Jay R. Feierman: Out of curiosity, and being a human ethologist, do you know what culture this is? Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:18:42 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Johnny, Are you sure that tail wagging in dogs is evidence of motivational conflict? Is that a theory? If so, what is the evidence supporting it? It is not as though the body of the dog is showing approach/avoidance behavior in which approach and avoidance coordinated motor patterns are rapidly alternated or are occurring simultaneously. My understanding of ethology is that when there is motivational conflict one often sees displacement behavior, which consists of bodily care, eating, or sleeping behavior. The rapidly alternated or simultaneous coordinated motor patterns of approach/avoidance are very dysfunctional. As a result, when they occur they have expressive rather than intentional functions. In human beings they are used by women in proceptive courtship displays. Coyness is the easiest seen example. Look at these video clips as examples: http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem13.swf and http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem15.swf and http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem17.swf and http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem28.swf and http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem3.swf . Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Johnny Angel CDBC To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 4:32 PM Subject: RE: Interspecies communication The only emotional condition in both canines and felines show in tail wagging is emotional conflict. This is also true of almost all back and forth movements in animal communication. When an animal is in conflict it is feeling pulled in to two different directions at the same time in that instant of time. It would like to move forward and at the same time retreat simultaneously or move to the left or move to the right. Each cancels each other out, the animal remains where it is but in a state of tension. The urge to remain is much more complex. Johnny Angel CDBC, PDT, PDBC I don't know in that I am not knowledgeable about "body language" in coyotes. I don't think a wagging tail is universally a friendly appeasement signal in all canids as it is in the domestic dog. In cats a laterally moving crook tail can signal readiness to attack, according to Paul Leyhausen in Cat Behavior. Is there a book of the "body-language" of coyotes? Laying the ears flat back, at least on some other mammals, such as horses, is usually a signal of impending aggression. Regards, Jay R. Feierman A coyote can stand tall, try to make and hold eye contact, lay ears back flat against it's head and wag it's tail. What is he telling me? CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Jay R. Feierman wrote: From: Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: Interspecies communication To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 4:14 PM Sue Bowers: Actually, a wagging tail indicates excitement, not necessarily happiness or friendliness. Lots of people have been bitten by tail-wagging dogs. Jay R. Feierman: I am not saying that I don't think you are correct that a wagging tail indicates excitement, rather than just happiness or friendliness. But, how do you know this? What is the data that you interpret to mean this? When you say that lots of people have been bitten by tail-wagging dogs, do you mean flesh-tearing bites. And, was the tail wagging at the time of the flesh-tearing bite? The mood of a dog can change in a second from happiness/friendliness to aggression. The reason I am questioning what you are saying is that other than breathing rate and pupil dilation, human beings do not have a specific body language for general excitement. There are autonomic nervous systems responses that are general, such as increase in heart rate and blood pressure. The heart rate goes up with all types of excitement from aggression to sexual arousal. However, the human smile is not a general signal of excitement. It is specific in terms of meaning happiness/friendliness/willingness to peacefully associate. Expressive behaviors, such as the tail wagging or the human smile, are social signals. What value would it be to have a social signal for general excitement? A conspecific could not tell if the dog were going to sniff it or bite it or mate with it or chase it or try to kill it. Sue Bowers: Whether dogs reading humans, humans reading dogs, or another species reading either...it does not matter if the actual behaviour/posture is the same across species, or not. With any species, we can learn what meaning each behaviour *represents*, and that's all that matters...I would assume it is the same for dogs. Jay R. Feierman: Theoretically, that would be possible. However, we know that each species has species-typical perceptual proclivities and only pays attention to certain features of the environment under natural conditions. That does not mean that one can not train an animal to attend to a stimulus that it would ordinarily ignore, if the stimulus, such as a facial affect on the human, was associated with certain other behavior, such as feeding, mating, etc. Having had lots of domestic and companion animals, I am not convinced that any of them could read my facial affects. However, I never trained any of them to do this specifically. I know that my dog is very sensitive to the tone of my voice and my general posture. The old open-the-umbrella trick makes most dogs submissive. Sue Bowers: Think of a culture where shaking the head from side to side means "Yes". ;-) Jay R. Feierman: Out of curiosity, and being a human ethologist, do you know what culture this is? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:34:42 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Thanks Cecilia. I just looked up The Behavior of Wolves, Dogs and Related Canids by Michael W. Fox. There are 7 used books for sale on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0898746868/ref=sr_1_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233548503&sr=1-1 but they are all about or slightly over $60.00 (USA), which is more than I should spend for such a book at this time. Do you know the date of this book? How good is it? I'd also appreciate Simon Gadbois's comments. Parenthetically, has anyone seen Paul Leyhausen's Cat Behavior: The Predatory and Social Behavior of Domestic and Wild Cats http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0824070178/ref=sr_1_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233548813&sr=1-1. That book, which is a real classic, goes for between $197.00 and $1,400.00 (USA) used on Amazon. In 1989 I did a sabbatical at the Max Planck Human Ethology Institute in Andech Germany. Paul Leyhausen was a guest there for about a week and lived in the same building I was living in. I had the opportunity to eat dinner with him a few times and have lots of interesting talks about cat behavior. That book is now several decades old but it is so full of very interesting and important information on the behavior of cats. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: Jay R. Feierman Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 4:21 PM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication There is not much out there. My two Bibles when I first developed my interest in coyotes were, Behavior of Wolves, Dogs and Related Canids by Michael W. Fox and Coyotes Biology, Behavior and Management edited by Marc Bekoff. I also leaned a lot about the social behavior of coyotes by reading God's Dog by Hope Ryden. Information about coyotes was very sparse in the 1980's. Then, six coyote puppies were born at Wolf Park and I lost my interest in wolves. Even after all of these years, I find myself returing to those books for answers to questions that may crop up. There are a lot of pictures in Micahel's book that show different body posturing. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: dragolin5@aol.com Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 00:39:11 -0500 To: LyndhurstPark@aol.com, Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I'd like to weigh in on this... Though by no means is this anecdote scientific, I am a dog lover and a dog owner. When my dog sees another dog, she shows her excitement or anxiety instantly by barking, having hair stand up, wagging her tail, or looking up to me for a cue. However, on the other hand... when she sees herself in a mirror, she goes up to it, perhaps sniffs it curiously (indicating that he has indeed noticed the image) but by no means shows excitement or anxiety to convey that she has just seen "another" dog. That leads ME to believe that she recognizes on some level that the reflection is her own (though I can tell she has no idea how it got there nor does stop to give it much inspection or thought.) I can only speak from my experience with a very smart, now 13-yr-old lab. -Jennifer Sloan Naturalist Educator Greenburgh Nature Center some recognise their own mirror image Could you kindly produce some evidence of such a interesting statement. In all scientific literature I've read - this is not the case. Regards Gordon Butcher UK -----Original Message----- From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com To: rudydemeester@telenet.be; ejhaskins@bigpond.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 5:10 pm Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines some recognise their own mirror image Could you kindly produce some evidence of such a interesting statement. In all scientific literature I've read - this is not the case. Regards Gordon Butcher UK Carnations mean admiration, Tulips mean love - what do Roses mean? Find out now! Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 01:51:49 -0500 (EST) To: tricia_b@comcast.net, simon.gadbois@gmail.com CC: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Many studies are now undertaken away from the sterile confinements of a lab and ethologist studying Canids certainly look more to observing in a natural habitat. Regards G Butcher In a message dated 02/02/2009 01:58:52 GMT Standard Time, tricia_b@comcast.net writes: Yes. There is a bit of misunderstanding about what science encompasses these days. Many people want a repeatable lab setting before accepting observations. Tricia Subject: RE: Object recognition in canines From: Rudy De Meester Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:43:04 +0100 To: dragolin5@aol.com, LyndhurstPark@aol.com, Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca This is exactly how I see it in practice. These dogs are aggressive to almost all other dogs, even siblings, and also on images of dogs, but when they pass a mirror, they just look at it and pass by after a little hesitation. I know this is not a proof that they are aware of themselves, but it is different from their reactions towards other dogs or images of them. It would be interesting to set up an experiment….. Van: dragolin5@aol.com [mailto:dragolin5@aol.com] Verzonden: maandag 2 februari 2009 6:39 Aan: LyndhurstPark@aol.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Onderwerp: Re: Object recognition in canines I'd like to weigh in on this... Though by no means is this anecdote scientific, I am a dog lover and a dog owner. When my dog sees another dog, she shows her excitement or anxiety instantly by barking, having hair stand up, wagging her tail, or looking up to me for a cue. However, on the other hand... when she sees herself in a mirror, she goes up to it, perhaps sniffs it curiously (indicating that he has indeed noticed the image) but by no means shows excitement or anxiety to convey that she has just seen "another" dog. That leads ME to believe that she recognizes on some level that the reflection is her own (though I can tell she has no idea how it got there nor does stop to give it much inspection or thought.) I can only speak from my experience with a very smart, now 13-yr-old lab. -Jennifer Sloan Naturalist Educator Greenburgh Nature Center some recognise their own mirror image Could you kindly produce some evidence of such a interesting statement. In all scientific literature I've read - this is not the case. Regards Gordon Butcher UK -----Original Message----- From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com To: rudydemeester@telenet.be; ejhaskins@bigpond.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 5:10 pm Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines some recognise their own mirror image Could you kindly produce some evidence of such a interesting statement. In all scientific literature I've read - this is not the case. Regards Gordon Butcher UK Carnations mean admiration, Tulips mean love - what do Roses mean? Find out now! Subject: Re: wolves and coyotes and dogs, Oh My From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:18:46 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Isn't the result of such rearing whqt we call "kennelosis"?? Cheers, Jenny H Is anyone aware of any studies in which a pack of domestic dogs was raised, from early puppyhood, in an outdoor enclosure...free-fed and accustomed to humans, but not broadly socialised, leash trained, or otherwise trained in obedience or manners? Preferably this would be "high end" domestic dogs, such as GSDs, border collies, Siberians, malamutes, Akitas...but any study would be of interest. Thanks, ~Sue! Subject: Re: Interspecies communication: Zoomorphia From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:49:59 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I suspect that stories such as these are pornographic urban myths. I am extremely disappointed to hear them related here. Sincerely, Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour Australia Subject: Exploratory behaviour From: juliajoe Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:53:18 -0200 To: applied-ethology Hi, Someone knows about researches in cat exploratory behaviour? Thank you Juliana - Brazil/2009 Subject: Re: Exploratory behaviour From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:08:09 -0700 To: applied-ethology See Paul Leyhausen's Cat Behavior at http://www.amazon.com/Cat-Behavior-Predatory-Domestic-ethology/dp/0824070178/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233586882&sr=1-1. Paul Leyhausen was a student of Konrad Lorenz. He spent a lifetime studying the comparative behavior of cats. This book is now 31 years old (published in 1978). However, as you can see by the few used copies that are for sale on Amazon, it is still a masterpiece of cat behavior. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: juliajoe To: applied-ethology Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 6:53 AM Subject: Exploratory behaviour Hi, Someone knows about researches in cat exploratory behaviour? Thank you Juliana - Brazil/2009 Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:29:15 -0700 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca When a dog reacts differently to an image of self in mirror then to a conspecific, there are at least two possible interpretations: (1) the dog recognizes the image as self and not being a narcissist, pays little attention to the image because it is self. (2) the image alone does not contain enough releasing stimuli to cause conspecific interactional behavior. The old ethological rule of heterogeneous summation probably is in effect here. The more contributing releasing stimuli associated with "dog" the more the response. Given the importance of olfaction and hearing in a dog's social behavior, it is much more likely that (2) is correct. Also, in order to determine that (1) is correct, a test would need to be devised similar to the Gallup red dot on the nose test used with primates. Until someone devised a test applicable to a dog, I don't know how one could conclude that (1) is correct and that (2) has been excluded. I also know from observing my dog's reaction to a dog on the TV, if there is just an image of a dog on TV with no sound, my dog ignores the TV. Occasionally, when a dog barks on TV, my dog will get alert and look at the TV. Often, my dog ignores barks heard on TV. However, that is no different from my dog at times ignoring barks from neighbor's dogs and at other times getting very excited and returning the barks. Does anyone know a good source for the meaning of different dog barks? There is one bark from the neighbor's dogs that I've come to be able to distinguish from other barks. It is made when there is someone walking down our country road. As the person walks by each property, the dog on the property barks. When my dog hears this bark, he runs out his doggie-door in our house and goes to our fence line and does his part by barking as the person passes our property. His bark is then picked up by the dog on the next property, who does the same type of bark when the person passes the next house. I presume this is some type of territorial intrusion bark. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Rudy De Meester To: dragolin5@aol.com ; LyndhurstPark@aol.com ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 12:43 AM Subject: RE: Object recognition in canines This is exactly how I see it in practice. These dogs are aggressive to almost all other dogs, even siblings, and also on images of dogs, but when they pass a mirror, they just look at it and pass by after a little hesitation. I know this is not a proof that they are aware of themselves, but it is different from their reactions towards other dogs or images of them. It would be interesting to set up an experiment….. Van: dragolin5@aol.com [mailto:dragolin5@aol.com] Verzonden: maandag 2 februari 2009 6:39 Aan: LyndhurstPark@aol.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Onderwerp: Re: Object recognition in canines I'd like to weigh in on this... Though by no means is this anecdote scientific, I am a dog lover and a dog owner. When my dog sees another dog, she shows her excitement or anxiety instantly by barking, having hair stand up, wagging her tail, or looking up to me for a cue. However, on the other hand... when she sees herself in a mirror, she goes up to it, perhaps sniffs it curiously (indicating that he has indeed noticed the image) but by no means shows excitement or anxiety to convey that she has just seen "another" dog. That leads ME to believe that she recognizes on some level that the reflection is her own (though I can tell she has no idea how it got there nor does stop to give it much inspection or thought.) I can only speak from my experience with a very smart, now 13-yr-old lab. -Jennifer Sloan Naturalist Educator Greenburgh Nature Center some recognise their own mirror image Could you kindly produce some evidence of such a interesting statement. In all scientific literature I've read - this is not the case. Regards Gordon Butcher UK -----Original Message----- From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com To: rudydemeester@telenet.be; ejhaskins@bigpond.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 5:10 pm Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines some recognise their own mirror image Could you kindly produce some evidence of such a interesting statement. In all scientific literature I've read - this is not the case. Regards Gordon Butcher UK Carnations mean admiration, Tulips mean love - what do Roses mean? Find out now! Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 07:42:44 -0800 (PST) To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca I have a source for coyote vocalizations. That is Bekoff's book. Some of the other wild canids are also listed. But, not much on dogs. Looks like the dogs don't have much to say. lol CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue --- On Mon, 2/2/09, Jay R. Feierman wrote: From: Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 10:29 AM When a dog reacts differently to an image of self in mirror then to a conspecific, there are at least two possible interpretations: (1) the dog recognizes the image as self and not being a narcissist, pays little attention to the image because it is self. (2) the image alone does not contain enough releasing stimuli to cause conspecific interactional behavior. The old ethological rule of heterogeneous summation probably is in effect here. The more contributing releasing stimuli associated with "dog" the more the response. Given the importance of olfaction and hearing in a dog's social behavior, it is much more likely that (2) is correct. Also, in order to determine that (1) is correct, a test would need to be devised similar to the Gallup red dot on the nose test used with primates. Until someone devised a test applicable to a dog, I don't know how one could conclude that (1) is correct and that (2) has been excluded. I also know from observing my dog's reaction to a dog on the TV, if there is just an image of a dog on TV with no sound, my dog ignores the TV. Occasionally, when a dog barks on TV, my dog will get alert and look at the TV. Often, my dog ignores barks heard on TV. However, that is no different from my dog at times ignoring barks from neighbor's dogs and at other times getting very excited and returning the barks. Does anyone know a good source for the meaning of different dog barks? There is one bark from the neighbor's dogs that I've come to be able to distinguish from other barks. It is made when there is someone walking down our country road. As the person walks by each property, the dog on the property barks. When my dog hears this bark, he runs out his doggie-door in our house and goes to our fence line and does his part by barking as the person passes our property. His bark is then picked up by the dog on the next property, who does the same type of bark when the person passes the next house. I presume this is some type of territorial intrusion bark. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Rudy De Meester To: dragolin5@aol.com ; LyndhurstPark@aol.com ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 12:43 AM Subject: RE: Object recognition in canines This is exactly how I see it in practice. These dogs are aggressive to almost all other dogs, even siblings, and also on images of dogs, but when they pass a mirror, they just look at it and pass by after a little hesitation. I know this is not a proof that they are aware of themselves, but it is different from their reactions towards other dogs or images of them. It would be interesting to set up an experiment….. Van: dragolin5@aol.com [mailto:dragolin5@aol.com] Verzonden: maandag 2 februari 2009 6:39 Aan: LyndhurstPark@aol.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Onderwerp: Re: Object recognition in canines I'd like to weigh in on this... Though by no means is this anecdote scientific, I am a dog lover and a dog owner. When my dog sees another dog, she shows her excitement or anxiety instantly by barking, having hair stand up, wagging her tail, or looking up to me for a cue. However, on the other hand... when she sees herself in a mirror, she goes up to it, perhaps sniffs it curiously (indicating that he has indeed noticed the image) but by no means shows excitement or anxiety to convey that she has just seen "another" dog. That leads ME to believe that she recognizes on some level that the reflection is her own (though I can tell she has no idea how it got there nor does stop to give it much inspection or thought.) I can only speak from my experience with a very smart, now 13-yr-old lab. -Jennifer Sloan Naturalist Educator Greenburgh Nature Center some recognise their own mirror image Could you kindly produce some evidence of such a interesting statement. In all scientific literature I've read - this is not the case. Regards Gordon Butcher UK -----Original Message----- From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com To: rudydemeester@telenet.be; ejhaskins@bigpond.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 5:10 pm Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines some recognise their own mirror image Could you kindly produce some evidence of such a interesting statement. In all scientific literature I've read - this is not the case. Regards Gordon Butcher UK Carnations mean admiration, Tulips mean love - what do Roses mean? Find out now! Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:48:05 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay R. Feierman: Humans have figured this out and don't look at a dog's face to know if the dog is happy, as the expressive behaviors that signal happiness (willingness to interact in a friendly way/appeasement, etc) in a dog is the wag of the tail, rather than turning up the corners of the mouth, etc., as in a human smile. Lore I. Haug: Actually, a dog's tail gives some of the most unreliable info in determining if the dog is "happy." If I want to try to decide if a dog might bite me, I always look at the dog's face. there is far more information being conveyed there. Jay R. Feierman [NEW]: When I look at the coyote facial expressions http://www.coyoterescue.org/facialexpressions.html, I see a number of them that signal neutral, alert, low intensity threat, small mouth threat face, aggressive threat face, defensive threat face, and submissive play face. It appears that the face of a coyote gives more information related to threat then to friendly appeasement, except perhaps for the submissive play face. So when one is looking for easily recognized "body language" expressive behavior in a domestic dog that is signaling appeasement and willingness to socially interact in a friendly and non-threatening way, do you believe the face gives more information than the tail? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:27:11 -0800 (PST) To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay I decided to type out the contents of Michael's book for you. 1 Evolution and classification of Canids 2 Comparative aspects of behaviour in canids 3 The behaviour and functions of submission 3 A pack of wolves 5 Social organization, sexual and filial bonds 6 Ecology: social economics and predation 7 Development of social relationships: wolf socialization 8 Wolves as parents 9 Interspecies relationships in Canids 10 The comparative ethology of the domesticated dog The book is 215 pages. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue --- On Mon, 2/2/09, Jay R. Feierman wrote: From: Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: Interspecies communication To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 10:48 AM Jay R. Feierman: Humans have figured this out and don't look at a dog's face to know if the dog is happy, as the expressive behaviors that signal happiness (willingness to interact in a friendly way/appeasement, etc) in a dog is the wag of the tail, rather than turning up the corners of the mouth, etc., as in a human smile. Lore I. Haug: Actually, a dog's tail gives some of the most unreliable info in determining if the dog is "happy." If I want to try to decide if a dog might bite me, I always look at the dog's face. there is far more information being conveyed there. Jay R. Feierman [NEW]: When I look at the coyote facial expressions http://www.coyoterescue.org/facialexpressions.html, I see a number of them that signal neutral, alert, low intensity threat, small mouth threat face, aggressive threat face, defensive threat face, and submissive play face. It appears that the face of a coyote gives more information related to threat then to friendly appeasement, except perhaps for the submissive play face. So when one is looking for easily recognized "body language" expressive behavior in a domestic dog that is signaling appeasement and willingness to socially interact in a friendly and non-threatening way, do you believe the face gives more information than the tail? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication: Zoomorphia From: JVKohl Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:35:02 -0500 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I have copies of the journal issues that contained these articles, and checked the snopes.com site (for you). I found validation of another "unusual case." All of the unusual cases, as I recall, were reported by physicians. The deer incident victim was supposedly treated in a nearby emergency room, and had evidence of hoof prints. snopes.com: Stapled Scrotum ••• A man staples his scrotum back together after slicing it open while mastubating with machine shop equipment. ...Example: [Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, 1991] UNUSUAL CASE Scrotum Self-Repair By William A. Morton, Jr, MD One morning I was called to... ...The above article did indeed appear in the July 1991 issue of Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, submitted by the physician who treated the victim. We... ...Sources: Morton, Jr., M.D., William A. "Scrotum Self-Repair." Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality. July 1991 (p. 15). Also told in: Petras, Kathryn and... Mon, 02 Feb 2009 12:41:06 GMT http://www.snopes.com/risque/penile/scrotum.asp I've forgotten details of the report on the schnauzer. I understand your suspicions, but I included the references when I related what you think are "pornographic urban myths." I am disappointed to read that you would so willingly dismiss published reports that seem relevant to this topic. Anthropomorphism is common; zoomorphism might deserve more consideration. This would allow for better comparisons among the likely stimuli to which we think other animals respond. See also (or not): Hediger, H (1965) Environmental factors influencing the reproduction of zoo animals. In: Beach, F.A. (ed) Sex and Behavior. (pages 319-354) John Wiley and Sons, Inc.: New York. My notes: A male otter treated one leg of his keeper as if it were a female otter. James V. Kohl EJ Haskins wrote: > > I suspect that stories such as these are pornographic urban myths. > > I am extremely disappointed to hear them related here. > > Sincerely, > Jenny Haskins > Coffs Harbour Australia > > Subject: Re: Exploratory behaviour From: Ravenroost Books Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:37:02 -0500 To: applied-ethology For those who like to hunt down reference books such as these, a few more available choices might be found via multi site searches such as located at www.bookfinder.com , www.addall.com and www.vialibri.net . N.B. there might be some overlap of listings. As a retired research scientist, long time pet owner (canine, feline, avian) and avid animal observer in general, I much appreciate the sharing of knowledge and perspectives by the folks on this list. Susan Pav Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: Chris Redenbach Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 12:38:49 -0500 To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Jay, I agree that it is really difficult to know what a dog thinks when it sees a mirror image of itself and have come to your same conclusions about the two choices. However I don't know that a red dot test would work as I don't think dogs are strongly motivated to self examine and self groom on a visual basis but rather an scent and tactile basis. Perhaps a test incorporating those elements could be devised. I thought it would be interesting to put a dog up on the bathroom sink counter in front of a mirror that only revealed my face and upper torso as well as the dog's image. The dog spent quite a lot of time looking back and forth from me to the mirror image and sniffing me and sniffing the mirror until it finally stopped looking. Of course, those were the facts. My interpretation was that the dog satisfied itself that the mirror image was unimportant to it. I have also, for fun, introduced two naive 9 month old litter sisters to a large mirror leaning against a wall to watch their reactions. The more stable of the two was quizzical but soon lost interest while the nervous sister barked and postured and reacted to the dogs in the image moving and appeared to be balanced between fight and flight. The stable sister reacted to none of this and was not for a moment tempted to copy her sister's behavior. For about two days, the nervous sister would startle and threaten each day as she came down the hall past the mirror until she started to ignore it. The mirror issue is so different with the dogs than the TV stuff. I once showed a movie of protection training on my wall back in the days of super 8 film and one of my dogs flew down the stairs, leapt up on the sofa and attacked the image on the wall. I then had a display of what I can only humorously and anthropomorphically call canine embarrassment. And Jay, my dogs who haven't yet developed a TV habit only attend to TV when the sound is on, but Lucy attends to it when it is muted. This AM she stood in rapt fascination as a horn bill retrieved a football on TV. There is a dvd on the subject of barking but I haven't viewed it. Author Turid Rugaas is quite popular in many dog training circles and has spent a great deal of time observing dog behavior. You can see a review at http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB989 Chris Redenbach CDBC On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Jay R. Feierman wrote: > > When a dog reacts differently to an image of self in mirror then to a > > conspecific, there are at least two possible interpretations: (1) the dog > > recognizes the image as self and not being a narcissist, pays little > > attention to the image because it is self. (2) the image alone does not > > contain enough releasing stimuli to cause conspecific interactional > > behavior. The old ethological rule of heterogeneous summation probably is in > > effect here. The more contributing releasing stimuli associated with "dog" > > the more the response. Given the importance of olfaction and hearing in a > > dog's social behavior, it is much more likely that (2) is correct. Also, in > > order to determine that (1) is correct, a test would need to be devised > > similar to the Gallup red dot on the nose test used with primates. Until > > someone devised a test applicable to a dog, I don't know how one could > > conclude that (1) is correct and that (2) has been excluded. > > > > I also know from observing my dog's reaction to a dog on the TV, if there is > > just an image of a dog on TV with no sound, my dog ignores the TV. > > Occasionally, when a dog barks on TV, my dog will get alert and look at the > > TV. Often, my dog ignores barks heard on TV. However, that is no different > > from my dog at times ignoring barks from neighbor's dogs and at other times > > getting very excited and returning the barks. > > > > Does anyone know a good source for the meaning of different dog barks? There > > is one bark from the neighbor's dogs that I've come to be able to > > distinguish from other barks. It is made when there is someone walking down > > our country road. As the person walks by each property, the dog on the > > property barks. When my dog hears this bark, he runs out his doggie-door in > > our house and goes to our fence line and does his part by barking as the > > person passes our property. His bark is then picked up by the dog on the > > next property, who does the same type of bark when the person passes the > > next house. I presume this is some type of territorial intrusion bark. > > > > Regards, > > Jay R. Feierman > > > > To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rudy De Meester > > To: dragolin5@aol.com ; LyndhurstPark@aol.com ; > > Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 12:43 AM > > Subject: RE: Object recognition in canines > > > > This is exactly how I see it in practice. These dogs are aggressive to > > almost all other dogs, even siblings, and also on images of dogs, but when > > they pass a mirror, they just look at it and pass by after a little > > hesitation. I know this is not a proof that they are aware of themselves, > > but it is different from their reactions towards other dogs or images of > > them. It would be interesting to set up an experiment….. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Van: dragolin5@aol.com [mailto:dragolin5@aol.com] > > Verzonden: maandag 2 februari 2009 6:39 > > Aan: LyndhurstPark@aol.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Onderwerp: Re: Object recognition in canines > > > > > > > > I'd like to weigh in on this... > > > > Though by no means is this anecdote scientific, I am a dog lover and a dog > > owner. When my dog sees another dog, she shows her excitement or anxiety > > instantly by barking, having hair stand up, wagging her tail, or looking up > > to me for a cue. However, on the other hand... when she sees herself in a > > mirror, she goes up to it, perhaps sniffs it curiously (indicating that he > > has indeed noticed the image) but by no means shows excitement or anxiety to > > convey that she has just seen "another" dog. That leads ME to believe that > > she recognizes on some level that the reflection is her own (though I can > > tell she has no idea how it got there nor does stop to give it much > > inspection or thought.) > > > > I can only speak from my experience with a very smart, now 13-yr-old lab. > > > > -Jennifer Sloan > > Naturalist Educator > > Greenburgh Nature Center > > > > some recognise their own mirror image > > > > Could you kindly produce some evidence of such a interesting statement. In > > all scientific literature I've read - this is not the case. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Gordon Butcher > > > > UK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com > > To: rudydemeester@telenet.be; ejhaskins@bigpond.com; > > Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 5:10 pm > > Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines > > > > > > > > > > > > some recognise their own mirror image > > > > Could you kindly produce some evidence of such a interesting statement. In > > all scientific literature I've read - this is not the case. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Gordon Butcher > > > > UK > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Carnations mean admiration, Tulips mean love - what do Roses mean? Find out > > now! Subject: Coyote bibliography -- was Re: Interspecies communication From: Margory Cohen Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:40:03 -0800 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca The Voice of the Coyote - J. Frank Dobie. Curtis Publishing Co., 1947, 1949; J. Frank Dobie, 1949. And therein, more references and experienced observation and study. -margory cohen Northern California ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: Jay R. Feierman Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 3:21 PM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication There is not much out there. My two Bibles when I first developed my interest in coyotes were, Behavior of Wolves, Dogs and Related Canids by Michael W. Fox and Coyotes Biology, Behavior and Management edited by Marc Bekoff. I also leaned a lot about the social behavior of coyotes by reading God's Dog by Hope Ryden. Information about coyotes was very sparse in the 1980's. Then, six coyote puppies were born at Wolf Park and I lost my interest in wolves. Even after all of these years, I find myself returing to those books for answers to questions that may crop up. There are a lot of pictures in Micahel's book that show different body posturing. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:50:14 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Chris Redenbach: Jay, I agree that it is really difficult to know what a dog thinks when it sees a mirror image of itself and have come to your same conclusions about the two choices. Jay R. Feierman: It is really difficult, if not impossible, to know what a dog "thinks" at any time. In terms of self-recognition, the methodological problem is not to know what the dog thinks. Rather, it is to figure out an experiment by which one can objectively determine that a dog recognizes self in the mirror. The great apes and humans are not the only species that can recognize a mirror image as a conspecific. That's rather widespread. To my knowledge they are the only species that can recognize the image as self, based on the George Gallup red-dot-on-the-nose experiments. For readers not familiar with this experiments, the great apes and a human child rubbed the red dot off when they looked in the mirror and saw a red dot on their nose. The lower primates (monkeys) did not try to rub the red dot off of their nose. All of these primates can see the color red. The ability to recognize an image of self in a mirror as a conspecific is seen as far back as teleost (bony) fish. There have been many experiments done on a variety of fish species in which one uses a mirror in the aquarium and observes the behavior of the fish towards the image. In many species, the fish will display aggressive attack behavior towards the mirror image of self only under certain circumstances. The comparative study of self-recognition is quite interesting. This capacity is often considered an element of higher consciousness. If consciousness is the awareness of one's awareness, then being aware that an image about which an individual is aware is an image of self is three levels deep - an awareness of an awareness of an awareness of self. There is a presumption (not based on much evidence) that all mammals are conscious but that below the mammals phylogenetically, the issue is awareness more than consciousness. Awareness can be defined as the capacity to modify one's behavior (~ movement) in response to an environmental element. It is extremely difficult to devise experiments to demonstrate simple consciousness - awareness of one's awareness across taxa. I'm curious what people on this group think about consciousness in non-human animals. The issue has come up in reference to humans on the human ethology group. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: Simon Gadbois Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 15:26:18 -0400 To: ethology network > Jay R. Feierman: It is really difficult, if not impossible, to know what a dog "thinks" at any time. In terms of self-recognition, the methodological problem is not to know what the dog thinks. Rather, it is to figure out an experiment by which one can objectively determine that a dog recognizes self in the mirror. The great apes and humans are not the only species that can recognize a mirror image as a conspecific. That's rather widespread. To my knowledge they are the only species that can recognize the image as self, based on the George Gallup red-dot-on-the-nose experiments. For readers not familiar with this experiments, the great apes and a human child rubbed the red dot off when they looked in the mirror and saw a red dot on their nose. The lower primates (monkeys) did not try to rub the red dot off of their nose. All of these primates can see the color red. Simon Gadbois: The experiment was actually, if my memory serves me well, a red dot on the forehead. The Gallo lab in Toulouse demonstrated this with Orcas and Dolphins in the mid-90's (Fabienne Delfour's Ph.D. thesis). An american lab did the same recently (and actually claims the "discovery"). Subject: Re: Feierman Tail Wagging From: Johnny Angel CDBC Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 16:29:57 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Are you sure that tail wagging in dogs is evidence of motivational conflict? I believe it is a sign of emotional conflict in the sense do I stay or do I go do. The dog is being driven in two directions at the same time. It wishes to retreat and advance at the same time. Since each cancels each other out it stays where it is at, however in a state of tension, in each dog in varying degrees. Is that a theory? Observation or Hypothesis would be a better description, Morris, Hediger and others have written on similar topics Morris to include other species in those cases it was neck twisting, tail flicking and a entire host of stylised visual signals in body language. It is not as though the body of the dog is showing approach/avoidance behaviour in which approach and avoidance coordinated motor patterns are rapidly alternated or are occurring simultaneously. Interesting that you should say this as this now gets into flight distance (flight zone) and I would offer these comments. I am only referring to Canis lupus familiaris. Dogs do not come ready made. Each is constructed with a different set of genes and different experiences. This formulation is interesting as they both have input to who the canine is at that point in time. In this scenario they both contribute to who the canine is. It is not just nature versus nurture. In actuality they both converse in the same language. The two in harmony shape the behavioural and mental effects in the canine's brain by shaping synaptic maps in the brain. I believe the information encoded and individual synaptic connections are the door to who the canine is. Having said this, one must look at the Neuro scheme of things in the domesticated canine. The proximal flight distance is approximately six feet in a normal canine in a wolf it is approximately twenty five feet. This has a huge impact from an ethological stand point. When one approaches a canine an image appears on the visual cortex it travels through the association areas checks in at the hippocampus for a memory neuron and on to the amygdala. If there is a memory neuron present I believe the behaviour is approach if the experience was positive in the past, if not it results in fight or flight. This occurs within 30ms before cognitive becomes available at approximately 100ms. There is some evidence that in certain circumstances this does not occur hence the system is short circuited visual cortex to amygdala(McConnell 2008). In the 33ms time frame it is a bimodal neuron function. It is not cognitive. You are probably wondering what is he on about? Tail wagging is not a good indication of the emotional state of a canine. I would agree with Dr. Haug that facial expression along with commissure (I am referring to the junction i.e.: upper and lower lips and upper and lower eyelids to be more revealing of a canines emotional state. My understanding of ethology is that when there is motivational conflict one often sees displacement behaviour, which consists of bodily care, eating, or sleeping behaviour. In this instance would you define motivational conflict vs. emotional conflict? The rapidly alternated or simultaneous coordinated motor patterns of approach/avoidance are very dysfunctional. How would you find them dysfunctional? In what sense? Johnny Angel CDBC, PDT, PDBC Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 15:13:19 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > Jay R. Feierman: It is really difficult, if not impossible, to know what a dog "thinks" at any time. In terms of self-recognition, the methodological problem is not to know what the dog thinks. Rather, it is to figure out an experiment by which one can objectively determine that a dog recognizes self in the mirror. The great apes and humans are not the only species that can recognize a mirror image as a conspecific. That's rather widespread. To my knowledge they are the only species that can recognize the image as self, based on the George Gallup red-dot-on-the-nose experiments. For readers not familiar with this experiments, the great apes and a human child rubbed the red dot off when they looked in the mirror and saw a red dot on their nose. The lower primates (monkeys) did not try to rub the red dot off of their nose. All of these primates can see the color red. Simon Gadbois: The experiment was actually, if my memory serves me well, a red dot on the forehead. The Gallo lab in Toulouse demonstrated this with Orcas and Dolphins in the mid-90's (Fabienne Delfour's Ph.D. thesis). An american lab did the same recently (and actually claims the "discovery"). Jay R. Feierman [NEW]: Was Fabienne Delfour's Ph.D. thesis ever published? How was the experiment done, as orcas and dolphins can not wipe a painted spot off. You may be correct re the forehead rather than the nose for the primates. It has been a long time since I saw that original article of Gallup. Is there evidence that orcas and dolphins have pod-specific sounds transmitted by social learning? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 16:32:17 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay R. Feierman: Re: signaling appeasement and willingness to socially interact in a friendly and non-threatening way, do you believe the face gives more information than the tail [in the domestic dog]? Lore I. Haug: Yes, the body and the face give much more information than the tail. Jay R. Feierman: My question only was between the face and tail. I agree that the body contains lots of expressive behavior information. How would one quantitate how much information is contained in a facial versus a tail expressive behavior? I wonder if the tail and the face do not give more information for specific moods? For example, submission is signaled by the tail carried low and tucked between the hind legs. What facial affect gives more unambiguous information than this regarding submission? In a breed such as Lhaso Apso, that routinely carry their tail high and arched over their back, the change to putting their tail between their hind legs is very striking. It is a very clear and unambiguous signal that is associated with a crouching of the rest of the body, which also has a characteristic make oneself lower-or-smaller-or-more-vulnerable posture. Lore I Haug: Perhaps some of this is a learned bias because there many dogs without tails or with tails that don't convey info (e.g. bostons). Jay R. Feierman: That's not the dog's fault! Lore I Haug: But in dogs with tails, sometimes we find that the tail is just not expressive enough and does not deviate between "mental states" enough to provide much useful information. Jay R. Feierman: Again, perhaps for some "mental states" (aka "moods"), such as aggression. But for other moods, such as friendly appeasement or submission, the tail seems to me to be a very good and unambiguous signal. However, given human selective breeding, it is difficult to know which of these expressive behaviors were not selectively bred for by humans, as one can breed for the threshold at which a particular expressive behavior is expressed. Why doesn't someone publish an ethogram of the expressive behaviors of the domestic dog, similar to the facial affect ethogram that was published on the coyote by Breedlove? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Feierman Tail Wagging From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 16:46:45 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay R. Feierman: Are you sure that tail wagging in dogs is evidence of motivational conflict? Johnny Angel: I believe it is a sign of emotional conflict in the sense do I stay or do I go do. The dog is being driven in two directions at the same time. It wishes to retreat and advance at the same time. Since each cancels each other out it stays where it is at, however in a state of tension, in each dog in varying degrees. Jay R. Feierman: Is that a theory? Johnny Angel: Observation or Hypothesis would be a better description, Morris, Hediger and others have written on similar topics Morris to include other species in those cases it was neck twisting, tail flicking and a entire host of stylised visual signals in body language. Jay R. Feierman: The problem I have with this proposed function for tail wagging in a domestic dog is that if the dog were in motivational conflict regarding approach/avoidance and if the dog did not do what most mammals do when they are in motivational conflict - eat, sleep, or self-care behavior - then one would expect either juxtaposed approach/avoidance behavior or rapidly alternated approach/avoidance behavior. Both approach and avoidance are intentional behaviors, in the ethological meaning of this term. In contrast, tail wagging is an expressive behavior, in the ethological meaning of the term. Therefore, an expressive behavior would not be a behavior that is signaling approach/avoidance intentions. Expressive behaviors only signal specific moods. There are also what are called "intention movements," as when a animal will paw the ground with the front extremity in a walking like movement, even though it is standing still, when it is obvious that the animal wants to walk forward but is being kept back, such as by a rider on a horse. However, one also sees humans show intentional behaviors when they are being held back by social convention, such as listening to someone boring talking to you at a party when both persons are standing. Given all of this, my opinion is that the emotional conflict theory of dog tail wagging is questionable. In another post you asked what is the difference between emotional conflict and motivational conflict. My answer would be not much. Traditionally, in ethology the term mood has meant "a specific internal readiness to act," taken from I. Eibl-Eibesfeldt's Ethology textbooks. So for example an animal would be in motivational conflict if had at the same time the mood to attack and the mood to be friendly. In rodents the usual displacement activity during motivational conflict is bodily care behavior - tail licking. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: FAP or MAP From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:14:00 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Is it the current trend in ethology to still use the term fixed action pattern or are folks using the term modal action pattern (I have heard both). Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: FAP or MAP From: "John R. Lane" Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 16:28:07 -0800 (PST) To: Applied Ethology List Hi Lori, Personally I prefer the term MAP. These patterns are not as fixed as we used to think. This is both from my own personal anecdotal experience and as a reference "Learning and Behavior" 6th edition 2008 revision by Paul Chance, P 12 -17,20,22,25 Regards John L. --- On Tue, 3/2/09, LIHaug@aol.com wrote: From: LIHaug@aol.com Subject: FAP or MAP To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Received: Tuesday, 3 February, 2009, 1:14 PM Is it the current trend in ethology to still use the term fixed action pattern or are folks using the term modal action pattern (I have heard both). Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr.. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look. Subject: Re: FAP or MAP From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:29:09 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca The terms fixed action pattern, coordinated motor pattern, and modal action pattern are all synonyms for the same type of behaviors that are definable by form and function in a natural environment and are species-universal in form. They are often released by specific sign stimuli (or social releaser if a part of a conspecific). Their threshold for execution is influenced by specific moods. These behaviors can be modified in timing, orientation, intensity, and function by learning. Their form is not modified very much or at all by learning except through ontogeny as the result of practice and brain maturation, as when a newborn walks compared to an adult walking. However, all three terms are hardly used anymore due to the waning influence of ethology in the bio-behavioral and neurosciences. That is especially true for human ethology. Perhaps less so for animal and applied animal ethology. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: LIHaug@aol.com To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:14 PM Subject: FAP or MAP Is it the current trend in ethology to still use the term fixed action pattern or are folks using the term modal action pattern (I have heard both). Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: FAP or MAP From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:40:25 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In a message dated 2/2/2009 6:36:50 PM Central Standard Time, jfeierman@comcast.net writes: all three terms are hardly used anymore due to the waning influence of ethology in the bio-behavioral and neurosciences>> If you WERE going to use one of them, which would be most appropriate for this day and age? Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: EJ Haskins Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 11:56:00 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca What a clever Lab :-) Jenny H (sorry, sorry.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Simon Gadbois Simon Gadbois: The experiment was actually, if my memory serves me well, a red dot on the forehead. The Gallo lab in Toulouse demonstrated this with Orcas and Dolphins in the mid-90's (Fabienne Delfour's Ph.D. thesis). An american lab did the same recently (and actually claims the "discovery"). Subject: Tail Wagging From: Zen Trainer Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:07:08 -0600 To: Ethics List From 16 years of training and boarding dogs my observation is: ~a wagging tail straight up in the air = aggression/dominance ~a wagging tail straight out (even with the body) = happy ~ a wagging tail down = fear, appeasement Now, some dogs wag their tails in circles. I laughingly classify that one as pure joy. These all come with other body languages and facial gestures as well but some are very subtle. When I am teaching utility workers and postal workers what to watch out for I try to make it simple and these tail positions are part of what I use. This is a great discussion - all aspects of it. They are why I joined this list in the first place years ago. Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org Subject: Re: FAP or MAP From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 18:11:33 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Lore, I tend not to use "fixed action pattern" because they are not so fixed, at least in terms of their timing, orientation, intensity, and function. I usually use coordinated motor pattern. However, over the past three years I have been developing a terminology for categorizing behavior of vertebrates. The two categories are as follows: Type I Behavior: definable by form and function in a natural environment and species-universal in form. Type II Behavior: describable by form and definable by function in a natural environment and not species-universal in form. The term "Type I Behavior" is synonymous with coordinated motor pattern. I find this classification useful, especially in dealing with behaviors that are not coordinated motor patterns. This is especially the case in trying to use ethology to understand human behavior. However, there are also non-human animal behaviors that are not Type I. They include the behaviors in some taxa of birds, some sea mammals, and some non-human primates. For example, when a parrot says words in a particular language, the behaviors of the tongue and larynx used to make the sounds are not Type I Behaviors (coordinated motor patterns). Same with the pod specific sounds in whales, which are sounds that are socially acquired in a specific pod and are not species-universal in form. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: LIHaug@aol.com To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:40 PM Subject: Re: FAP or MAP In a message dated 2/2/2009 6:36:50 PM Central Standard Time, jfeierman@comcast.net writes: all three terms are hardly used anymore due to the waning influence of ethology in the bio-behavioral and neurosciences>> If you WERE going to use one of them, which would be most appropriate for this day and age? Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:49:31 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hi Jay, I am not quite certain how to answer your questions. I thought I was talking to people here with a common background knowledge. Or are you treating my mails rather like a student's essay and asking for references, etc?? My understanding re dogs' tails is from years of reading anything I can on dog behaviour, a variety of different references, books, seminar presentations, Internet articles, etc, AND from personal observation over fifty years of dog ownership. As regards dogs' physically signalling capability, it is precisely that. We have interfered so much with domestic dogs' physical characteristics that some dogs are not capable of showing some physical signals, while others either through breeding of mutilation lack the necessary body parts. I suspect also (which in my language means I tend to agree with the sources that maintain this) that in domestic dogs much of the natural wolf physical signalling behaviours are missing or changed and then NEW domestic dog behavious have taken over. (See, if nothing else, Belyaev.) As far as "ethograms" are concerned that is not a term that means much to me -- though if I spend more time on lists such as this, it might become meaningful. If you mean a good reference as to normal domestic canine communication I cannot help you. My personal feeling is that it is best to consult multiple sources. I don't have Brenda Arloff's book, which many people quote as their source -- I've looked at it, but decided that for the little information that it had in it that I didn't have elsewhere it was too expensive for me. I have got Barbara Handelsman's book on order. I'm hoping it will be good (at least that the illustrations in it are better than what look like black and white newspaper reproductions). I believe that Scott and Fuller's book is still considered excellent, but again it is one outside my book-buying budget. Similarly with Abrantes, although many of my references quote his work as a reference. I do have whatever Abrantes I could get off the Internet. It is still Abrantes illustrations of dog body signals showing arousal and aggression that are reproduced/redrawn over and over again in many sources. (And I didn't go to his Seminar here as I took objection to something he said about rats -- I thought, if he's SO wrong about rats, why should I think of him as the absolute authority on dogs. Quite apart from the fact that this year I decided to spend by conference/seminar money on books. (Conferences etc are very expensive for me as they involve travel expenses and accommodation and animal care, etc, etc,) There IS a lot of information re Dog communication on the net. All you need to do is assess the authority/education/knowledge level of the author. Some is incredibly naive :-( (Like saying a wagging tail means the dog is friendly, raised hackles means the dog is going to attack, etc) I won't bother giving you a list of my books or saved articles. Many of the books are probably now out-of-print and if the articles are still findable on the Internet you can find them for yourself Dr P's site is probably as good a place to start as any: http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/dog.htm Unfortunately Pat Robards' "K9 events" site has closed due to her ill-health :-( Also try: http://www.AssociationofAnimalBehaviorProfessionals.com where you should find some excellent articles. Sincerely, Jenny H ----- Original Message ----- Jay R. Feierman: . . .Are you suggesting that when dogs show friendly appeasement, they put their ears back? Definitely!!!! Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 14:40:08 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I only opened the first one -- but it looked like awfully BAD acting to me :-( Jenny H ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman Coyness is the easiest seen example. Look at these video clips as examples: http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem13.swf and http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem15.swf and http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem17.swf and http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem28.swf and http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem3.swf . Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: cissy stamm Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:12:34 -0800 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Lore, I believe you edited part of Barbara Handelman's photo illustrated book on Canine Bahavior. Would that qualify as an ethogram of expressive behaviors? With regard to tail position, there are 19 photos illustrating and "reading" tail position. I'm quite familiar with this book because I know Barbara and my ASD, Wargas, is in several of the photos. Cissy On Feb 2, 2009, at 3:32 PM, Jay R. Feierman wrote: > Jay R. Feierman: Re: signaling appeasement and willingness to socially interact in a friendly and non-threatening way, do you believe the face gives more information than the tail [in the domestic dog]? > > Lore I. Haug: Yes, the body and the face give much more information than the tail. > > Jay R. Feierman: My question only was between the face and tail. I agree that the body contains lots of expressive behavior information. How would one quantitate how much information is contained in a facial versus a tail expressive behavior? I wonder if the tail and the face do not give more information for specific moods? For example, submission is signaled by the tail carried low and tucked between the hind legs. What facial affect gives more unambiguous information than this regarding submission? In a breed such as Lhaso Apso, that routinely carry their tail high and arched over their back, the change to putting their tail between their hind legs is very striking. It is a very clear and unambiguous signal that is associated with a crouching of the rest of the body, which also has a characteristic make oneself lower-or-smaller-or-more-vulnerable posture. > > Lore I Haug: Perhaps some of this is a learned bias because there many dogs without tails or with tails that don't convey info (e.g. bostons). > > Jay R. Feierman: That's not the dog's fault! > > Lore I Haug: But in dogs with tails, sometimes we find that the tail is just not expressive enough and does not deviate between "mental states" enough to provide much useful information. > > Jay R. Feierman: Again, perhaps for some "mental states" (aka "moods"), such as aggression. But for other moods, such as friendly appeasement or submission, the tail seems to me to be a very good and unambiguous signal. However, given human selective breeding, it is difficult to know which of these expressive behaviors were not selectively bred for by humans, as one can breed for the threshold at which a particular expressive behavior is expressed. Why doesn't someone publish an ethogram of the expressive behaviors of the domestic dog, similar to the facial affect ethogram that was published on the coyote by Breedlove? > > To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: EJ Haskins Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 15:26:10 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Or she might not have recognised what she saw in the mirror as a dog at all!! . . . When my dog sees another dog, she shows her excitement or anxiety instantly by barking, having hair stand up, wagging her tail, or looking up to me for a cue. However, on the other hand... when she sees herself in a mirror, she goes up to it, perhaps sniffs it curiously (indicating that he has indeed noticed the image) but by no means shows excitement or anxiety to convey that she has just seen "another" dog. That leads ME to believe that she recognizes on some level that the reflection is her own (though I can tell she has no idea how it got there nor does stop to give it much inspection or thought.) -Jennifer Sloan Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:02:14 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Maybe because you would have to do it for many different breeds of dogs??? Abrantes has published his wolf facial (and postural) illustrations than as near as dammit apply well to German Shepherds -- shorthaired German Shepherds that is. You would need different illustrations for Cocker Spaniels, and probably different ones again for American Cocker Spaniels, Bloodhounds (which also might suit coonhounds Barbara of the Symphony of Hounds are you out there?), Poodles with and without their faces clipped, Labradors, Greyhounds (whippets probably would be covered also buy this one :-), Old English Sheepdogs, Pugs, Pekes, Dogues de Bordeau, etc, etc, etc. Etcetera. Dogs with naturally droopy ears that have been clipped long as well as short!! Not to mention the poor little basenji with its always wrinkled brow, or the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel looking like those one-time fashionable pictures of children with huge eyes :-) So mostly we stick to generic dogs -- Abrantes Wolf Diagrams or a Labrador to take account of the shorter muzzle, heavier flews and drooped ears. Then for BODY language we would need even more -- tails up, tails down Chippendale legs, short legs, fluffy coats, wire coats, hairless, etc, etc. Honestly, Jay. I don't understand the point that you are trying to make!! There is really an awful lot out there on domestic dogs -- even if much of it hasn't get found its way into the ethology libraries. And now I can't find my Turid Rugaas "On Talking Terms" -- Did she include drawings?? I know there are some simple, good drawing in "How to Talk to Your Animals: Jean Craighead George. (German Shepherd type head) There is a diagram in Michael Fox's "Understanding Your Dog" but I have seen the same illustration in other, newer, books.There are illustrations in Budiansky's "The Truth About Dogs". and Stanley Coren's "How to Speak Dog." Jenny H ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:32 AM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication Why doesn't someone publish an ethogram of the expressive behaviors of the domestic dog, similar to the facial affect ethogram that was published on the coyote by Breedlove? Subject: Fwd: Re: Interspecies communication From: Christina Lager Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 08:31:47 +0100 To: applied ethology May I just intersect a thing here? Based on my personal experience, not scientific studies, ;o) I don't like talking about what a wagging tail signals in the broad terms used below. A tail wag isn't just a tail wag. there is a lot of information carried in the way the tail is held, while it is wagging, how fast is the wag? what does the rest of the body look like? No, it's not an appeasement signal when my dog wags her tail at the scent of a wounded duck. Or at the scent of fox. I can basically see what kind of game she has found just by how her body and tail is moving... All good doghandlers that I know can do that, so it's not like I'm trying to say that I am particularly good at reading my dog or anything like that ;o) On the other hand when she meets another dog, it's a whole different way of wagging. and that wag differs according to whether that dog is known or stranger, male or female, adult, puppy or adolescent. And whether she is in her own home or in the strangers or in a neutral area. Then there is all teh wags to humans - greetings according again to circumstances like when meeting another dog, there is the "oh boy, the green trousers"-wag, the "oh boy she brought out the clicker"-wag, the "oh boy feeding time"-wag, the "someone is shouting ad sounding angry"-wag, the "I want to lie on the couch and sleep with you"-wag etc etc. This is my longwinded way of saying "a wag isn't just a wag" you have to look how it is wagging and at the entire dog, and the situation it is in. best regards Christina Lager DVM (and owner of a bunch of chesapeakes (or is it the other way around?)) Denmark PS: apologies to Tricia for sending this only to her first, I hit the wrong button. ----- Original meddelelse ----- <<< Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:59:31 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca A Cattle dog of my acquaintance (he's actually a very good friend ;-) wags his tail in circles when he's "putting on the breaks." He looks a bit like a supersonic aircraft landing with its tail parachute. He has bad conformation (we think -- his X-rays show nothing but his rump is much higher than his shoulders) which gives him aches and pains, and he's not good at stopping :-) Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Zen Trainer Now, some dogs wag their tails in circles. I laughingly classify that one as pure joy. Tracy B Ann Subject: wagging and raised hackles in canines From: "John R. Lane" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 00:21:58 -0800 (PST) To: Applied Ethology List Hi all, I've largely kept out of this till now but I agree that a wagging tail isn't necessarily a sign of happiness or greeting. I cant remember the references from my library now but I would almost guarentee they are somewhere amongst Bruce Fogle, Micheal J Fox, Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, Susan Hetts and maybe Ray and Lorna Coppinger. From my own personal experience and from my memory of references I would trust a wagging tail and/or piloerection on their own are nothing more than an indicator that the canine is aroused. There are many other signals to observe in order to figure out what the arousal type/mood may be. The eyes are one. The mouth is another. The body stance is another. The way the tail is carried and/or moved is another. There is so many subtleties to canine mood/behavioral expression That it is far too complex a subject to be able to just pick one and say simplistically that this is always a sign of X mood. Many times you may need to be able read the whole dog and the environment to be able to interpret what is happening and what may happen next. Sometimes you will even need to know some of the behavioral history of the animal you are looking at. Every single animal we look at is always a study of one organism, its responses to its environment and the effects of the resultant feedback loop that is and has been in operation up till now. Regards John L. --- On Tue, 3/2/09, Christina Lager wrote in part: From: Christina Lager Subject: Fwd: Re: Interspecies communication To: "applied ethology" Received: Tuesday, 3 February, 2009, 8:31 PM May I just intersect a thing here? Based on my personal experience, not scientific studies, ;o) I don't like talking about what a wagging tail signals in the broad terms used below........................................ Make Yahoo!7 your homepage and win a trip to the Quiksilver Pro. Find out more. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication tails From: gene daniels Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 06:12:34 -0800 (PST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca, "Jay R. Feierman" I use the tail, ungulate, bird, dog when unavoidable... may work on G.Bears, will email. My friend Birdy #1 knew me for 9 years before looking directly at me down his beak. --- On Mon, 2/2/09, Jay R. Feierman wrote: From: Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: Interspecies communication To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 6:32 PM Jay R. Feierman: Re: signaling appeasement and willingness to socially interact in a friendly and non-threatening way, do you believe the face gives more information than the tail [in the domestic dog]? Lore I. Haug: Yes, the body and the face give much more information than the tail. Jay R. Feierman: My question only was between the face and tail. I agree that the body contains lots of expressive behavior information. How would one quantitate how much information is contained in a facial versus a tail expressive behavior? I wonder if the tail and the face do not give more information for specific moods? For example, submission is signaled by the tail carried low and tucked between the hind legs. What facial affect gives more unambiguous information than this regarding submission? In a breed such as Lhaso Apso, that routinely carry their tail high and arched over their back, the change to putting their tail between their hind legs is very striking. It is a very clear and unambiguous signal that is associated with a crouching of the rest of the body, which also has a characteristic make oneself lower-or-smaller-or-more-vulnerable posture. Lore I Haug: Perhaps some of this is a learned bias because there many dogs without tails or with tails that don't convey info (e.g. bostons). Jay R. Feierman: That's not the dog's fault! Lore I Haug: But in dogs with tails, sometimes we find that the tail is just not expressive enough and does not deviate between "mental states" enough to provide much useful information. Jay R. Feierman: Again, perhaps for some "mental states" (aka "moods"), such as aggression. But for other moods, such as friendly appeasement or submission, the tail seems to me to be a very good and unambiguous signal. However, given human selective breeding, it is difficult to know which of these expressive behaviors were not selectively bred for by humans, as one can breed for the threshold at which a particular expressive behavior is expressed. Why doesn't someone publish an ethogram of the expressive behaviors of the domestic dog, similar to the facial affect ethogram that was published on the coyote by Breedlove? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: tail-wagging responses From: Mad Eddie Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 08:22:14 -0600 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Small Study: “Asymmetric tail-wagging responses by dogs to different emotive stimuli,” Authors: Giorgio Vallortigara, a neuroscientist at the University of Trieste in Italy, and two veterinarians, Angelo Quaranta and Marcello Siniscalchi, at the University of Bari, also in Italy. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VRT-4N97NYR-9&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=17d200b5ad9f1b9f760f403712b2b829 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/24/science/24wag.html?_r=1&ref=science Just anecdotally~~~ but my dogs seem to have a right-tail-bias on coming home after a short absence. Sue Kozoyed Subject: Re: Interspecies communication tails From: gene daniels Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 06:29:13 -0800 (PST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca, "Jay R. Feierman" to be clear, bend over 45 degrees at waist, move arm past gluteus and wave lower arm. while there, try doin' the hawk: bend overplace both arms behind, think menacing thoughts say trench warfare. Clears area of song birds. But not dogs. --- On Tue, 2/3/09, gene daniels wrote: From: gene daniels Subject: Re: Interspecies communication tails To: applied-ethology@usask.ca, "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 9:12 AM I use the tail, ungulate, bird, dog when unavoidable... may work on G.Bears, will email. My friend Birdy #1 knew me for 9 years before looking directly at me down his beak. --- On Mon, 2/2/09, Jay R. Feierman wrote: From: Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: Interspecies communication To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 6:32 PM Jay R. Feierman: Re: signaling appeasement and willingness to socially interact in a friendly and non-threatening way, do you believe the face gives more information than the tail [in the domestic dog]? Lore I. Haug: Yes, the body and the face give much more information than the tail. Jay R. Feierman: My question only was between the face and tail. I agree that the body contains lots of expressive behavior information. How would one quantitate how much information is contained in a facial versus a tail expressive behavior? I wonder if the tail and the face do not give more information for specific moods? For example, submission is signaled by the tail carried low and tucked between the hind legs. What facial affect gives more unambiguous information than this regarding submission? In a breed such as Lhaso Apso, that routinely carry their tail high and arched over their back, the change to putting their tail between their hind legs is very striking. It is a very clear and unambiguous signal that is associated with a crouching of the rest of the body, which also has a characteristic make oneself lower-or-smaller-or-more-vulnerable posture. Lore I Haug: Perhaps some of this is a learned bias because there many dogs without tails or with tails that don't convey info (e.g. bostons). Jay R. Feierman: That's not the dog's fault! Lore I Haug: But in dogs with tails, sometimes we find that the tail is just not expressive enough and does not deviate between "mental states" enough to provide much useful information. Jay R. Feierman: Again, perhaps for some "mental states" (aka "moods"), such as aggression. But for other moods, such as friendly appeasement or submission, the tail seems to me to be a very good and unambiguous signal. However, given human selective breeding, it is difficult to know which of these expressive behaviors were not selectively bred for by humans, as one can breed for the threshold at which a particular expressive behavior is expressed. Why doesn't someone publish an ethogram of the expressive behaviors of the domestic dog, similar to the facial affect ethogram that was published on the coyote by Breedlove? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: wagging and raised hackles in canines From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 08:18:56 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca John R. Lane: From my own personal experience and from my memory of references I would trust a wagging tail and/or piloerection on their own are nothing more than an indicator that the canine is aroused. Jay R. Feierman: The general arousal mechanisms are mediated through the autonomic nervous system whereas the expressive behaviors (that are conspecific signals) are mediated through the "voluntary" nervous system. Typically, the general indicators of arousal increase heart rate, blood pressure, respiratory rate, and cause piloerection. Is there any evidence that the muscles that wag a dog's tail are innervated by the autonomic nervous system? I don't think so. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:23:19 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In a message dated 2/2/2009 7:22:24 PM Central Standard Time, stammwood@rcn.com writes: Would that qualify as an ethogram of expressive behaviors>> I would say it is probably the closest thing we have to a true ethogram for dogs. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: Barbara Shumannfang Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:32:26 -0500 To: LIHaug@aol.com CC: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I think I missed a post (I don't seem to get them all sometimes). Which is that you are discussing as being likely the closest thing to a dog ethogram? Thanks, Barbara LIHaug@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/2/2009 7:22:24 PM Central Standard Time, stammwood@rcn.com writes: > > Would that qualify as an ethogram of expressive behaviors>> > > > I would say it is probably the closest thing we have to a true ethogram for dogs. > > Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC > Texas Veterinary Behavior Services > 2627 Cordes Dr. > Sugar Land, TX 77479 > 281-980-3737 > 281-313-1849 (fax) > www.texasvetbehavior.com > APDT #692, IAABC > > Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. -- Barbara Shumannfang, CPDT Author of "Happy Kids, Happy Dogs" Top Notch Dog, LLC www.topnotchdog.com (919) 493-4560 Subject: Re: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 08:40:10 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Christina, What you say is very interesting. Why don't you video tape your dogs as they are moving their tails various ways in various situations and then see if you can systematize your observations into some type of format that would be scientifically valid. For example, you could edit the video clips and then have blind raters try to determine the type of tail movements. It may be that a bird dog is just "happy" when it picks up the scent of a wounded duck and that is not much difference from the tail wagging when the owner comes home, etc. Part of the methodological issue is how does one determine proximate function of any behavior - by its result or outcome. With expressive behaviors when the recipient of the signal is a human and not a conspecific, the answer becomes more difficult. To do the study well, one should videotape dog-dog interactions and see the result of a certain tail movement on the recipient of the signal (i.e. the other dog). Based on my knowledge of the expressive behaviors of humans, I believe it is possible that there are different types of tail "wagging" that are communicating different things. For example, think of the seven different human facial affects that signal happy, sad, fear, disgust, surprise, anger, and neutral. Many of these movements use different combinations of the same muscle contractions. These and all expressive behaviors are coordinated motor patterns that are species-universal. The human facial affect expressive behaviors have meanings that are also species-universal, based on the work of Paul Ekman. Tribal people all over the world give them the same meaning. The same sort of thing could be done with the various movements of the dog's tail. Some are very obvious, such as the tail between the legs, the upright tail and the tail wag. But, are there subtle variations on the wag? Given how cheap video cameras are and given the ease of doing such studies, I am rather amazed that they have not been done. Lots of potential catchy titles for the book - Tell Tale Tails or Tail Tales or Tall Tails are possibilities. : = ) Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Christina Lager To: applied ethology Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:31 AM Subject: Fwd: Re: Interspecies communication May I just intersect a thing here? Based on my personal experience, not scientific studies, ;o) I don't like talking about what a wagging tail signals in the broad terms used below. A tail wag isn't just a tail wag. there is a lot of information carried in the way the tail is held, while it is wagging, how fast is the wag? what does the rest of the body look like? No, it's not an appeasement signal when my dog wags her tail at the scent of a wounded duck. Or at the scent of fox. I can basically see what kind of game she has found just by how her body and tail is moving... All good doghandlers that I know can do that, so it's not like I'm trying to say that I am particularly good at reading my dog or anything like that ;o) On the other hand when she meets another dog, it's a whole different way of wagging. and that wag differs according to whether that dog is known or stranger, male or female, adult, puppy or adolescent. And whether she is in her own home or in the strangers or in a neutral area. Then there is all teh wags to humans - greetings according again to circumstances like when meeting another dog, there is the "oh boy, the green trousers"-wag, the "oh boy she brought out the clicker"-wag, the "oh boy feeding time"-wag, the "someone is shouting ad sounding angry"-wag, the "I want to lie on the couch and sleep with you"-wag etc etc. This is my longwinded way of saying "a wag isn't just a wag" you have to look how it is wagging and at the entire dog, and the situation it is in. best regards Christina Lager DVM (and owner of a bunch of chesapeakes (or is it the other way around?)) Denmark PS: apologies to Tricia for sending this only to her first, I hit the wrong button. ----- Original meddelelse ----- <<<> technically, *everything* is innervated by the autonomic nervous system. , when dog' get aroused, their tail wagging rate does increases. In fact, "predatory wags" are probably some of the most energetic wags seen in dogs. so there is some correlation. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 08:44:46 -0700 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Ed, Are you implying that different breeds of dogs have different "expressive behaviors"? I find that hard to believe. Rather, I suspect that different breeds have different thresholds for the release of the same expressive behaviors. Can you tell me a single expressive behavior (body-language communicative signal) that is present in one breed of dog and completely absent in other breeds? Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: EJ Haskins To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:02 AM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication Maybe because you would have to do it for many different breeds of dogs??? Abrantes has published his wolf facial (and postural) illustrations than as near as dammit apply well to German Shepherds -- shorthaired German Shepherds that is. You would need different illustrations for Cocker Spaniels, and probably different ones again for American Cocker Spaniels, Bloodhounds (which also might suit coonhounds Barbara of the Symphony of Hounds are you out there?), Poodles with and without their faces clipped, Labradors, Greyhounds (whippets probably would be covered also buy this one :-), Old English Sheepdogs, Pugs, Pekes, Dogues de Bordeau, etc, etc, etc. Etcetera. Dogs with naturally droopy ears that have been clipped long as well as short!! Not to mention the poor little basenji with its always wrinkled brow, or the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel looking like those one-time fashionable pictures of children with huge eyes :-) So mostly we stick to generic dogs -- Abrantes Wolf Diagrams or a Labrador to take account of the shorter muzzle, heavier flews and drooped ears. Then for BODY language we would need even more -- tails up, tails down Chippendale legs, short legs, fluffy coats, wire coats, hairless, etc, etc. Honestly, Jay. I don't understand the point that you are trying to make!! There is really an awful lot out there on domestic dogs -- even if much of it hasn't get found its way into the ethology libraries. And now I can't find my Turid Rugaas "On Talking Terms" -- Did she include drawings?? I know there are some simple, good drawing in "How to Talk to Your Animals: Jean Craighead George. (German Shepherd type head) There is a diagram in Michael Fox's "Understanding Your Dog" but I have seen the same illustration in other, newer, books.There are illustrations in Budiansky's "The Truth About Dogs". and Stanley Coren's "How to Speak Dog." Jenny H ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:32 AM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication Why doesn't someone publish an ethogram of the expressive behaviors of the domestic dog, similar to the facial affect ethogram that was published on the coyote by Breedlove? Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:48:29 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In a message dated 2/3/2009 9:46:12 AM Central Standard Time, jfeierman@comcast.net writes: Are you implying that different breeds of dogs have different "expressive behaviors"? I find that hard to believe.>> I agree. Different breeds have differnt thresholds, and different breeds have differing abilities to physically produce a particular signal. But its not like different dog breeds speak totally different languages. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 09:21:25 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay R. Feierman: So when one is looking for easily recognized "body language" expressive behavior in a domestic dog that is signaling appeasement and willingness to socially interact in a friendly and non-threatening way, do you believe the face gives more information than the tail? Jenny H.: Absolutely!! Look at the eyes (pupil size, clarity, movement of the eye-ball) and the commissure of the mouth. Jay R. Feierman [OLD]: Do you really think that looking at a dog's pupil size is a more "easily recognized body language expressive behavior" than looking at a wagging tail? Also, pupil size is mediated by the autonomic nervous system and is not an expressive behavior per se. It is just a general signal of arousal. In a human one can see dilated pupils in both fear and sexual arousal, which are very different emotional states. Jenny H: If the face is saying one thing and the tail another it is because you are misinterpretting the tail!! Jay R. Feierman: That is just arbitrary. How do you know you are correct? The real issue is how does one methodologically determine the function of an expressive behavior? The only way to do this is to see the result or outcome of the behavior in a conspecific, as the behavioral signal in the expressive behavior co-evolved with the response to the signal in the recipient. You would need to observe two dogs interacting and observe the response in one dog to another dog's expressive signaling behavior to determine the function of the expressive signaling behavior. Jenny H: As living with humans is a domestic dog's natural environment, studying wild/feral dogs tells us less about domestic dogs than actually looking at "owned" pets and working dogs. Jay R. Feierman: That brings up a very interesting question, given that dogs have been selectively bred by humans for thousands of years. Do the expressive behaviors of dogs cause changes in the behavior of other dogs or do they just cause changes in the humans who observe these behaviors? Since humans have selectively bred dogs, they could have bred expressive behaviors into them to which humans respond but which other dogs do not respond. I'm dubious that this is the case, however. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 09:28:26 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jenny, They are all "acting," as they come from cable TV mainly from Latin America. However, they illustrate in exaggerated form the juxtaposition of approach/avoidance or the rapid alternation of approach/avoidance, which are dedicated movements used in human female proceptive courtship behavior. You can see these behaviors in less exagerated forms in human courtship all over the world. They are species-universal coordinated motor patterns whose function is courtship in women. You should look at the next to the last one http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem28.swf as the most realistic example. I just posted these human ethology videos to illustrate the difference between these approach/avoidance behaviors and the lateral wagging of a dog's tail, which is not approach avoidance behavior. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: EJ Haskins To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:40 PM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication I only opened the first one -- but it looked like awfully BAD acting to me :-( Jenny H ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman Coyness is the easiest seen example. Look at these video clips as examples: http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem13.swf and http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem15.swf and http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem17.swf and http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem28.swf and http://www.rdos.net/flv/fem3.swf . Subject: Re: Tail Wagging From: doggiepause@comcast.net Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:40:16 +0000 (UTC) To: Zen Trainer CC: Ethics List These are basically my observations also, after 10 years of operating a dog daycare and introducing literally hundreds of dogs to each other. Yes, natural tail position should be considered, and lack of a tail makes things much more difficult. (Possibly for other dogs, as well as for humans.) Yes, there is much, and generally more accurate in the face, but it is harder to see -- especially for a novice observer. Type of ear can also present difficulties. Raised hackles signals arousal, but not necessarily aggressive intent. IMO one of the best initial observations one can make is suggested by Patricia McConnell: notice where the dog's weight is being carried. Forward or backward? It's really necessary to look at the whole dog to decide what is going on. Thank you for allowing me to participate in this fascinating discussion. Judy Gee Doggie Pause ltd. Englewood, CO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zen Trainer" To: "Ethics List" Sent: Monday, February 2, 2009 5:07:08 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Tail Wagging From 16 years of training and boarding dogs my observation is: ~a wagging tail straight up in the air = aggression/dominance ~a wagging tail straight out (even with the body) = happy ~ a wagging tail down = fear, appeasement Now, some dogs wag their tails in circles. I laughingly classify that one as pure joy. These all come with other body languages and facial gestures as well but some are very subtle. When I am teaching utility workers and postal workers what to watch out for I try to make it simple and these tail positions are part of what I use. This is a great discussion - all aspects of it. They are why I joined this list in the first place years ago. Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 09:43:53 -0700 To: EJ Haskins , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Jay R. Feierman: . . .Are you suggesting that when dogs show friendly appeasement, they put their ears back? Jenny: Definitely!!!! . . . I am not quite certain how to answer your questions. I thought I was talking to people here with a common background knowledge. Or are you treating my mails rather like a student's essay and asking for references, etc?? Jay R. Feierman: I doubt that we have common background knowledge. If you are interested, I'd be glad to tell you my background. However, having different backgrounds does not mean that we can not learn from one another. The fact that we have different backgrounds and different sources of knowledge is what allows us to learn from one another. I am asking a very simple question, which is what is the basis for saying that when dogs show friendly appeasement, they put their ears back? How was that determined? Is there any data or films that show or demonstrate this? I would think you need to show the effect of one dog putting its ear's back on the behavior of another dog to know the function of this expressive behavior. I do not know the answer or I would not be asking the question. My areas of expertise is human ethology but I do have some background with animal behavior. I'm not an expert on dog behavior. The reason I am asking the question is that in horses, when they put their ears back and pin them against their skull, they are usually going to do something aggressive, such as kick or bite. It is a threat expressive behavior. Since horses and dogs are both mammals, I find it interesting that if dogs put their ears back when they are showing friendly appeasement, the same movement would have opposite meaning in two taxa. That would be unusual. However, it is not impossible as the function of coordinated motor patterns can and do change through phylogeny. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:55:43 +0000 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , EJ Haskins , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca But can't even very closely related animals have different functions for the same behaviour? Isn't a human smiling at another human usually considered to be giving a friendly gesture, whereas amongst chimps and gorillas, a smile is considered to be a threat? Chris --On 03 February 2009 09:43 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: > > > Jay R. Feierman: . . .Are you suggesting that when dogs show friendly > appeasement, they put their ears back? > > Jenny: Definitely!!!! . . . I am not quite certain how to answer your > questions. I thought I was talking to people here with a common > background knowledge. Or are you treating my mails rather like a > student's essay and asking for references, etc?? > > Jay R. Feierman: I doubt that we have common background knowledge. If you > are interested, I'd be glad to tell you my background. However, having > different backgrounds does not mean that we can not learn from one > another. The fact that we have different backgrounds and different > sources of knowledge is what allows us to learn from one another. > > I am asking a very simple question, which is what is the basis for saying > that when dogs show friendly appeasement, they put their ears back? How > was that determined? Is there any data or films that show or demonstrate > this? I would think you need to show the effect of one dog putting its > ear's back on the behavior of another dog to know the function of this > expressive behavior. I do not know the answer or I would not be asking > the question. My areas of expertise is human ethology but I do have some > background with animal behavior. I'm not an expert on dog behavior. > > The reason I am asking the question is that in horses, when they put > their ears back and pin them against their skull, they are usually going > to do something aggressive, such as kick or bite. It is a threat > expressive behavior. Since horses and dogs are both mammals, I find it > interesting that if dogs put their ears back when they are showing > friendly appeasement, the same movement would have opposite meaning in > two taxa. That would be unusual. However, it is not impossible as the > function of coordinated motor patterns can and do change through > phylogeny. > > To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:02:13 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Chris Redenbach: As to consciousness, if memory serves (and it may not), altruism was once thought of as an indicator of consciousness. Dogs exhibit altruism. Jay R. Feierman: That is very interesting. I have not heard this before - that altruism may be an indicator of consciousness. I'm going to co-post my response to the Human Ethology Yahoo group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/, as I'm sure this will generate discussion there. I presume that by altruism you mean a behavior that has a benefit (in reproductive success) to one individual (the recipient) that has a cost (in reproductive success) to another individual (the actor) in which the two individuals are not kin. In the case of dog-human interaction, they are obviously not kin. However, many altruistic-like behaviors are exhibited between non-kin because the predisposition to execute them evolved in kin-based societies. That can include behavior across species, as in human-dog interactions. When behavior is extended to kin that is a cost to self, such behaviors evolve by kin selection. There are more of one's genes in one's kin then in one self. This is the mechanism for the evolution of such things as alarm calls that benefit one's relative but have a cost to the caller. How does one determine altruism in a domestic dog in which the human provisions and feeds the dog? At best it would be what Robert Trivers calls reciprocal altruism, which is a way of understanding how cooperative behavior could evolve within a species. Reciprocal altruism requires one to extend "credit" to another individual with the expectation that the favor will be returned, perhaps in value but not in kind, at some time in the future. It requires the capacity for commitment. A domestic dog will "go out of his or her way" to help a humans but the human is often the one that feeds the domestic dog. I'm not sure how altruism is an indicator of consciousness, except that perhaps one has to be conscious to have the capacity for commitment? One sees reciprocal altruism in many taxa - reciprocal grooming in primates. It can also be seen in two horses standing in a field in the summer time where they are standing in such a way that the tail of one horse swats the flies off of the tail of another horse. This type of cooperative behavior does not require commitment, however, as the two acts are occurring at the same time. My own impression is that all mammals are "conscious" but that reptiles, amphibians, and fish only have awareness. I suspect that birds are also conscious. I don't know exactly how to define consciousness to reflect this To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Canine Expressive Behaviors From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:12:05 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com I just bought this book on Amazon.com, Dog Language: An Encyclopedia of Canine Behavior by Roger Abrantes http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Language-Encyclopedia-Canine-Behavior/dp/0966048407/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233680583&sr=1-3. It is the sort of book I've been looking for on canine expressive behaviors. Has anyone read this book or does anyone have an opinion of it? At $13.57 new it is a book I can afford. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:48:36 -0700 To: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" , EJ Haskins , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Chris Sherman: But can't even very closely related animals have different functions for the same behaviour? Jay R. Feierman: Yes. This was discovered by Konrad Lorenz as a child when he observed waterfowl on the Danube River in front of his house in Altenberg, Austria. He then published it in German a very famous paper in the 1930s. The paper was republished in English by Harvard University Press in the early '70s. See http://www.amazon.com/Studies-Animal-Human-Behavior-Volumes/dp/B001NBN13S/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233683139&sr=1-2. Lorenz showed that the same coordinated motor pattern had different expressive, communicative functions in closely related species of water fowl. He determined the behavior's function by the result or outcome of the behavior on a conspecific. Chris Sherman: Isn't a human smiling at another human usually considered to be giving a friendly gesture, whereas amongst chimps and gorillas, a smile is considered to be a threat? Jay R. Feierman: I don't think so. See http://www.discoverchimpanzees.org/activities/ident-a-chimp-expressions.php. The closest to a human smile in a chimanzee is the so called "play face" of the chimpanzee in which the lower but not the upper teeth show. The play face is also seen in human children at times when they play but is a rare expressive behavior in human children. I don't think the chimpanzee has an equivalent expressive behvaior to the human smile. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 17:53:00 +0000 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" , EJ Haskins , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hmmm...I wonder why zoos often have notices up to say 'Please do not smile at the gorillas - they consider this to be a threat' Chris (Sherwin) --On 03 February 2009 10:48 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: > > Chris Sherman: But can't even very closely related animals have different > functions for the same behaviour? > > Jay R. Feierman: Yes. This was discovered by Konrad Lorenz as a child > when he observed waterfowl on the Danube River in front of his house in > Altenberg, Austria. He then published it in German a very famous paper in > the 1930s. The paper was republished in English by Harvard University > Press in the early '70s. See > http://www.amazon.com/Studies-Animal-Human-Behavior-Volumes/dp/B001NBN13S > /ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233683139&sr=1-2. Lorenz showed that the > same coordinated motor pattern had different expressive, communicative > functions in closely related species of water fowl. He determined the > behavior's function by the result or outcome of the behavior on a > conspecific. > > Chris Sherman: Isn't a human smiling at another human usually considered > to be giving a friendly gesture, whereas amongst chimps and gorillas, a > smile is considered to be a threat? > > Jay R. Feierman: I don't think so. See > http://www.discoverchimpanzees.org/activities/ident-a-chimp-expressions.p > hp. The closest to a human smile in a chimanzee is the so called "play > face" of the chimpanzee in which the lower but not the upper teeth show. > The play face is also seen in human children at times when they play but > is a rare expressive behavior in human children. I don't think the > chimpanzee has an equivalent expressive behvaior to the human smile. > > To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 17:56:59 +0000 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" , EJ Haskins , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Perhaps I need to be a little more specific here - it is generally thought to be the showing of teeth that is the threat. Therefore, the apparently same (or similar, because that is at the crux of this entire thread) behaviour (smiling vs teeth baring) can have different functions. --On 03 February 2009 10:48 -0700 "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: > > Chris Sherman: But can't even very closely related animals have different > functions for the same behaviour? > > Jay R. Feierman: Yes. This was discovered by Konrad Lorenz as a child > when he observed waterfowl on the Danube River in front of his house in > Altenberg, Austria. He then published it in German a very famous paper in > the 1930s. The paper was republished in English by Harvard University > Press in the early '70s. See > http://www.amazon.com/Studies-Animal-Human-Behavior-Volumes/dp/B001NBN13S > /ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233683139&sr=1-2. Lorenz showed that the > same coordinated motor pattern had different expressive, communicative > functions in closely related species of water fowl. He determined the > behavior's function by the result or outcome of the behavior on a > conspecific. > > Chris Sherman: Isn't a human smiling at another human usually considered > to be giving a friendly gesture, whereas amongst chimps and gorillas, a > smile is considered to be a threat? > > Jay R. Feierman: I don't think so. See > http://www.discoverchimpanzees.org/activities/ident-a-chimp-expressions.p > hp. The closest to a human smile in a chimanzee is the so called "play > face" of the chimpanzee in which the lower but not the upper teeth show. > The play face is also seen in human children at times when they play but > is a rare expressive behavior in human children. I don't think the > chimpanzee has an equivalent expressive behvaior to the human smile. > > To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: wagging and raised hackles in canines From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 11:19:06 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay R. Feierman: Is there any evidence that the muscles that wag a dog's tail are innervated by the autonomic nervous system? I don't think so. Lore Haug: Technically, *everything* is innervated by the autonomic nervous system. Jay R. Feierman: Everything? Are you including striated muscle? Lore Haug: When dog' get aroused, their tail wagging rate does increases. Jay R. Feierman: Yes, but that is not evidence that the rate of increase is caused by direct innervation of the autonomic nervous system to the striated muscles that move the tail. The blood vessels in the tail muscles may be innervated by the autonomic fibers but I don't think the actual muscle fibers in the tail are. Lore Haug: In fact, "predatory wags" are probably some of the most energetic wags seen in dogs. so there is some correlation. Jay R. Feierman: Maybe we are meaning something different by the term "innervated by the autonomic nervous system." My understanding is that the autonomic nervous system only innervates non-striated muscle, cardiac muscle and glands. All striated muscle is innervated by the "voluntary" nervous system. To my knowledge the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems do not innervate striated muscles directly. If a dog is in a specific mood that causes the tail to wag faster, the impulses to wag the tail faster would be coming through the "voluntary" nervous system. The mood that generates the tail wag probably originates in the hypothalamus and the expression of the mood may be a rapid frequency of the moving tail. By analogy the human smile has a certain natural duration. The duration of the human smile is not regulated by the autonomic nervous system. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Interspecies Communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 11:23:03 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay R. Feierman: Since humans have selectively bred dogs, they could have bred expressive behaviors into them to which humans respond but which other dogs do not respond. Lore Haug: There is one behavior that we see in dogs that is not observed in dog-dog dyads and that is the "smiling" behavior. While this is similar to a submissive grimace, the topography and frequency of the "smiling" behavior does differ when directed toward a human versus another dog. This behavior is not seen in all dogs but rather occurs more frequently in certain breeds and breed lines. Jay R. Feierman [NEW]: Although I am not an expert in dog ethology, I have never once in my life seen any expressive behavior on the face of a dog that I would call a "smile" in the sense that the term is used to describe a human expressive behavior in which the corners of the mouth are turned up symmetrically and there is a contraction around the eye muscles. One does not even see a smile-like behavior in our closest primate relative, the chimpanzee. Can you provide some evidence for what you are saying? If you can video-tape this behavior, you can post it to the group. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Canine Expressive Behaviors From: doggiepause@comcast.net Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 19:11:30 +0000 (UTC) To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Please let us know what you think when you read it. Hopefully, you can get a copy of the Aloff book to compare. And Sarah Kalnajs has a dvd that I use extensively in training new staff re canine body language. (I recognize that dogs in my daycare are not necessarily representative of dogs in overall.) Judy Gee Doggie Pause ltd. Englewood, CO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay R. Feierman" To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Cc: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 9:12:05 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Canine Expressive Behaviors I just bought this book on Amazon.com, Dog Language: An Encyclopedia of Canine Behavior by Roger Abrantes http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Language-Encyclopedia-Canine-Behavior/dp/0966048407/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233680583&sr=1-3. It is the sort of book I've been looking for on canine expressive behaviors. Has anyone read this book or does anyone have an opinion of it? At $13.57 new it is a book I can afford. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 12:28:19 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Chris Sherman: Isn't a human smiling at another human usually considered to be giving a friendly gesture, Cecilia Lambert: Not always. I can smile at a trapper or a person who uses dogs to kill coyotes, while knowing that what I have planned against them is nearing fruition. Jay R. Feierman: What you would be displaying to the trapper would be a false smile, also called pseudo-affectual intentional behavior. Such smiles usually just turn up the corner of the mouth but are not accompanied by a contraction of the periorbital muscles around the eyes. A true smile is called a Duchenne smile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smile. However, at a distance it is difficult to distinguish the true Duchenne smile from a false smile. Also, in a true Duchenne smile the two sides of the face go up symmetrically. In a false smile there is an asymmetry. One side usually goes up first. This can at times only be seen on slow motion frame by frame analysis. However, there is folk psychology that says, "Don't trust someone with a crooked smile." However, a trained actor can make him or herself give a true Duchenne smile on command through what is called Stanislavski method acting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_acting. Cecilia Lambert: A smile can be a way to hide true feelings. Jay R. Feierman: Yes, and such a smile can be a Duchenne, genuine smile, as the smile that is covering another mood (self-perceived as a true feeling) is produced semi-automatically out of awareness. This is one of the non-volitional mechanisms of deception in humans - mask the affect of one mood with the affect of another mood. Cecilia Lambert: A smile can be used to give an enemy a false sense of security. Jay R. Feierman: That is sometimes called a disarming smile. However, such as smile may be a genuine Duchenne smile. When one is walking down a dark alley and someone approaches you, if there is enough light, the best thing to do is to smile at the person as you pass one another, as that shows friendly appeasement behavior and indicates that you are not meaning to be aggressive. The smile is often accompanied by a friendly vocalization, such as "Hi." Yet, a criminal could easily smile to mislead you and as soon as you pass the criminal, he or she could turn back and attack you. I'm going to cc this to the human ethology Yahoo group, as it is more human than applied animal ethology. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:35:42 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In a message dated 2/3/2009 10:47:01 AM Central Standard Time, jfeierman@comcast.net writes: which is what is the basis for saying that when dogs show friendly appeasement, they put their ears back? How was that determined? Is there any data or films that show or demonstrate this? I >> Jay, there is a lot of data, photos, videos, etc to show this. Ears back is an accepted behavior in dogs associated with appeasement. Horses also roll their ears back in appeasement but the ears back associated with appeasement is different then the ears back associated with aggression. Sometimes it has to do with the degree to which the opening of the pinna rotates. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Canine Expressive Behaviors From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:42:09 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In a message dated 2/3/2009 11:12:42 AM Central Standard Time, jfeierman@comcast.net writes: looking for on canine expressive behaviors. Has anyone read this book or does anyone have an opinion of it? At $13.57 new it is a book I can afford. Regards, Jay R. Feierman>> Jay, I think (not to be self serving) you would find more accurate information in Barbara Handelman's Canine Behavior: A Photo Illustrated Guide. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:43:59 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In a message dated 2/3/2009 11:55:27 AM Central Standard Time, Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk writes: 'Please do not smile at the gorillas - they consider this to be a threat'>> It may also be that gorillas are particularly sensitive to eye contact and when folks smile at them, they tend to look at them at the same time! Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Interspecies Communication From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:49:16 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In a message dated 2/3/2009 12:23:52 PM Central Standard Time, jfeierman@comcast.net writes: expressive behavior on the face of a dog that I would call a "smile" in the sense that the term is used to describe a human expressive behavior in which the corners of the mouth are turned up symmetrically >> well, I never said it looked just like a human smile. :-) Merely that there is a behavior that dogs show that we commonly term "smiling" and it is uniquely directed toward humans. You might also look at Dr. Patricia McConnell's For the Love of the Dog. She does equate some dog expressions to a human smile her her book. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:55:19 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In a message dated 2/3/2009 1:29:11 PM Central Standard Time, jfeierman@comcast.net writes: However, there is folk psychology that says, "Don't trust someone with a crooked smile awww! I have a crooked smile! Does that mean I'm always faking it?? Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Canine Expressive Behaviors From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:23:55 -0700 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Lore, I looked at the book on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Canine-Behavior-Photo-Illustrated-Handbook/dp/0976511827/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233702827&sr=1-1 . It does look very good. You talked me into buying it, which I just did. If anyone on the applied ethology group is interested in human ethology, the best single book on the subject is I. Eibl-Eibesfeldt's Human Ethology. See http://www.amazon.com/Human-Ethology-Irenaus-Eibl-Eibesfeldt/dp/0202309703/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233703268&sr=1-1. Thanks. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: LIHaug@aol.com To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:42 PM Subject: Re: Canine Expressive Behaviors In a message dated 2/3/2009 11:12:42 AM Central Standard Time, jfeierman@comcast.net writes: looking for on canine expressive behaviors. Has anyone read this book or does anyone have an opinion of it? At $13.57 new it is a book I can afford. Regards, Jay R. Feierman>> Jay, I think (not to be self serving) you would find more accurate information in Barbara Handelman's Canine Behavior: A Photo Illustrated Guide. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: How do I get this listserv in daily digest form? From: Judie Gerber Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 15:35:42 -0800 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca How do I get this listserv in daily digest form instead of too many individual emails? Please help. Thank you. Dr. Judie Gerber Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:40:57 -0700 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Jay R. Feierman: What is the basis for saying that when dogs show friendly appeasement, they put their ears back? How was that determined? Is there any data or films that show or demonstrate this? Lore I. Haug: Jay, there is a lot of data, photos, videos, etc to show this. Ears back is an accepted behavior in dogs associated with appeasement. Horses also roll their ears back in appeasement but the ears back associated with appeasement is different then the ears back associated with aggression. Sometimes it has to do with the degree to which the opening of the pinna rotates. Jay R. Feierman: My real question is more methodological. How does one determine the function of any expressive behavior? My understanding is that one determines the function of an expressive behavior by the result or outcome of the behavior on a conspecific's behavior. Expressive behaviors co-evolve with the behavior in the conspecific who is the receiver of the expressive behavior as a signal. It would seem to me that to say with impunity that ears back is an accepted appeasement behavior in dogs (versus some other function), you would need to show that when one dog was threatening another dog, the dog who was being threatened put his or her ears back prior to assuming a full submissive posture and the dog being aggressive became less aggressive or turned friendly. Is that the case? If so, are there data that shows this? Perhaps just a small dog interacting with a much larger dog. One would predict that the smaller dog would show ears-back behavior, presuming the two dogs were strangers and were meeting on neutral territory. I am not denying that ears back is an appeasement display in a dog, as I'm not an expert in dog behavior. I'm just asking how a function of an expressive behavior is determined in a dog. I'm also aware that the same coordinated motor pattern behavior can have more than one function in a species. The human smile is a good example. It has a number of closely related functions: appeasement, friendly greeting, happy, "cover" another emotion, etc. One can determine these functions by the effect of a human smile on the individual human who is the recipient of the smile. If every time someone smiled at a person, the person who was the recipient of the smile, presuming they were larger, attacked them, the smile's function would be considered a threat display, rather than an appeasement display. However, most smiles are disarming and do just the opposite to the recipient of the smile. I am copying a number of these posts to the human ethology group because the same methodological problem is applicable when studying humans ethologically. Human ethologists are accused of studying humans "as though they didn't talk," so the methodological issues are quite similar across species. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: RE: Canine Expressive Behaviors From: Zen Trainer Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 17:55:45 -0600 To: jfeierman@comcast.net, Ethics List I just bought this book on Amazon.com, Dog Language: An Encyclopedia of Canine Behavior by Roger Abrantes http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Language-Encyclopedia-Canine-Behavior/dp/0966048407/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233680583&sr=1-3. It is the sort of book I've been looking for on canine expressive behaviors. Has anyone read this book or does anyone have an opinion of it? At $13.57 new it is a book I can afford. Regards, Jay R. Feierman I like it and refer to it often. It is a bit basic and left me screaming for more.... I like and respect Roger Abrantes also. Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org Subject: RE: Interspecies communication From: Zen Trainer Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:01:22 -0600 To: chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk, Ethics List From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk But can't even very closely related animals have different functions for the same behaviour? Isn't a human smiling at another human usually considered to be giving a friendly gesture, whereas amongst chimps and gorillas, a smile is considered to be a threat? Chris I totally agree. A dog turns sideways to send a signal that it wants to avoid conflict. A cat turns sideways to looks bigger and more threatening. A dog rolls over and shows it stomach in a clear message that it does not want to fight. A cat rolls over and shows it's stomach when it is getting ready to kick butt with those back legs. Yes, that is the correct scientific jargon. ;). Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org Subject: RE: Interspecies Communication From: Zen Trainer Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:16:50 -0600 To: jfeierman@comcast.net, Ethics List Jay R. Feierman [NEW]: Although I am not an expert in dog ethology, I have never once in my life seen any expressive behavior on the face of a dog that I would call a "smile" in the sense that the term is used to describe a human expressive behavior in which the corners of the mouth are turned up symmetrically and there is a contraction around the eye muscles. One does not even see a smile-like behavior in our closest primate relative, the chimpanzee. Can you provide some evidence for what you are saying? If you can video-tape this behavior, you can post it to the group. Jay, Google (I am using that word as a verb) "dogs" and "smiling". You'll find tons of stuff. I even remember a few fun tests to see if you could tell a snarling dog from a smiling dog. Dalmatians are a breed that smile. I lived with one whose smiles were few and far between. She was very affectionate but didn't smile a whole lot. Most people were thrilled and honored when they got one of her smiles. She loved my window cleaners and smiled at them every time they came. They were always terrified! Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org Subject: Re: Canine Expressive Behaviors From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 19:58:18 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In a message dated 2/3/2009 5:24:33 PM Central Standard Time, jfeierman@comcast.net writes: on the applied ethology group is interested in human ethology, the best single book on the subject is I. Eibl-Eibesfeldt's Human Ethology. See http://www.amazon.com/Human-Ethology-Irenaus-Eibl-Eibesfeldt/dp/0202309703/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233703268&sr=1-1. thanks, Jay! Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 19:59:28 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In a message dated 2/3/2009 5:41:31 PM Central Standard Time, jfeierman@comcast.net writes: ears back is an accepted appeasement behavior in dogs (versus some other function), you would need to show that when one dog was threatening another dog, the dog who was being threatened put his or her ears back prior to assuming a full submissive posture and the dog being aggressive became less aggressive or turned friendly. Is that the case? >> Yes, it is. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Interspecies Communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:22:37 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Jay R. Feierman: Although I am not an expert in dog ethology, I have never once in my life seen any expressive behavior on the face of a dog that I would call a "smile" in the sense that the term is used to describe a human expressive behavior in which the corners of the mouth are turned up symmetrically and there is a contraction around the eye muscles. One does not even see a smile-like behavior in our closest primate relative, the chimpanzee. Can you provide some evidence for what you are saying? If you can video-tape this behavior, you can post it to the group. Tracy B. Ann: Jay, Google (I am using that word as a verb) "dogs" and "smiling". You'll find tons of stuff. I even remember a few fun tests to see if you could tell a snarling dog from a smiling dog. Dalmatians are a breed that smile. I lived with one whose smiles were few and far between. She was very affectionate but didn't smile a whole lot. Most people were thrilled and honored when they got one of her smiles. She loved my window cleaners and smiled at them every time they came. They were always terrified! Jay R. Feierman: I put "smile dog" into Google images and got these videos: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt--KVJCVpPmac/my_dog_smiling_on_command/ and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6m_8ZFxtks and http://video.yahoo.com/network/100284668?v=799001 and http://greattube.net/video/114657/Dog-smile-funny.html and http://www.clipser.com/watch_video/302634 and http://crazymotion.net/smiling-dog/wSlGLnUhdS3MjAy.html. Except for the one of these videos of the Boston terrier, most almost look like flemen type behaviors that one sees in ungulates http://www.starsunmoon.com/images/River-flemen,crop.jpg. They also look somewhat like a silent bared teeth display in primates (an affinitive or friendly signal) or a fear grimace as seen in non-human primates http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2953602647_f6526eff2b.jpg?v=0. When baboons display their teeth with vocalization it looks like http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Hamadryas-Baboon-Male-Threat-Display-Baring-Teeth-Posters_i2634537_.htm. Is this appeasement? Doesn't look too friendly. There are really two issues when talking about smiling in dogs compared to smiling in humans: (1) Are the movements themselves the same as the movements that produce what we call a human smile? (2) Do the movements have the same function? Again, because this issue crosses over to human ethology, I am double posting it on both Yahoo groups. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:28:30 -0700 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com That's good, as that is the way to determine a behavior's proximate function as a conspecific signal. Are there actual videos or pictures where this is documented? I have ordered two different books now on dog ethology. Hopefully, I'll know more in a few weeks about the subject then I do now. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: LIHaug@aol.com To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 5:59 PM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication In a message dated 2/3/2009 5:41:31 PM Central Standard Time, jfeierman@comcast.net writes: If ears back is an accepted appeasement behavior in dogs (versus some other function), you would need to show that when one dog was threatening another dog, the dog who was being threatened put his or her ears back prior to assuming a full submissive posture and the dog being aggressive became less aggressive or turned friendly. Is that the case? >> Yes, it is. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 12:30:27 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Isn't this what we have been saying all along?? Jenny H ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman I believe it is possible that there are different types of tail "wagging" that are communicating different things. Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: wagging and raised hackles in canines From: EJ Haskins Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 12:31:50 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I suppose the question then is tail wagging under voluntary or involuntary control? I do know (or I have heard from a variety of sources that I trust :-) that one of the hardest things to teach canine actors is to NOT wag their tail when they are playing dead. Can we teach a dog to wag its tail in various ways on command (without invoking the emotional state, that is)? Jenny H ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Typically, the general indicators of arousal increase heart rate, blood pressure, respiratory rate, and cause piloerection. Is there any evidence that the muscles that wag a dog's tail are innervated by the autonomic nervous system? I don't think so. Subject: Re: wagging and raised hackles in canines From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:36:44 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Jenny, How does one determine what is "voluntary" versus "involuntary" in a dog once one gets beyond a simple reflex? When the nervous system is divided into the "voluntary" nervous system and the autonomic nervous system, the term "voluntary" is somewhat of a misnomer. There are lots of coordinated motor patterns that get released by specific sign stimuli that will occur unless there is some type of motivational conflict or some other more volitional basis for suppressing the behavior, such as having had the behavior punished in the past. Also, as one goes up the phylogenetic scale in vertebrates, there is more volitional control over coordinated motor patterns. Humans probably have the most volitional control. However, even in humans there are so called micro-expressions that give hints of the behavior that can sometimes be seen on frame by frame analysis of behavior. If a dog wags his or her tail when he or she sees his pr her owner, I don't think the question, "Is the tail wagging under voluntary or involuntary control?" is answerable. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: EJ Haskins To: Jay R. Feierman Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 6:27 PM Subject: Re: wagging and raised hackles in canines I suppose the question then is tail wagging under voluntary or involuntary control? I do know (or I have heard from a variety of sources that I trust :-) that one of the hardest things to teach canine actors is to NOT wag their tail when they are playing dead. Can we teach a dog to wag its tail in various ways on command (without invoking the emotional state, that is)? Jenny H ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Typically, the general indicators of arousal increase heart rate, blood pressure, respiratory rate, and cause piloerection. Is there any evidence that the muscles that wag a dog's tail are innervated by the autonomic nervous system? I don't think so. Subject: Re: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:43:30 -0700 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Jay R. Feierman: I believe it is possible that there are different types of tail "wagging" that are communicating different things. Jenny H.: Isn't this what we have been saying all along?? Jay R. Feierman [NEW]: Yes. However, one would need to video tape the different types of tail wagging and show the videos to multiple viewers (raters) to see if you can get an acceptable degree of inter-rater reliability for each category of wag. Once that is done, one would then need to determine the function of each of the different types of tail wagging by observing the result or outcome of the type of tail wagging on the behavior of a conspecific (another dog). Has this been done? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 14:29:15 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Horses, of course, are not a canid species at all. I have never known a dog to turn around and kick a person or other animal, either. Jenny ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman The reason I am asking the question is that in horses, when they put their ears back and pin them against their skull, they are usually going to do something aggressive, such as kick or bite. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 20:31:00 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Jay R. Feierman: Are you implying that different breeds of dogs have different "expressive behaviors"? I find that hard to believe. EJ Haskins: I would advise you to at least go to an All Breed Conformation show and SEE the different "expressive behaviours". I've done some Googling for you: http://www.mypets.net.au/flex/articles/247/pug.cfm pug http://www.mypets.net.au/flex/articles/244/pekingese.cfm Pekingese http://www.mypets.net.au/flex/articles/556/bloodhound.cfm bloodhound http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/bassethound.htm Bassett http://www.dogslife.com.au/breeds?cid=7745&pid=145542 miniature schnauzer http://www.pedigree.com.au/breeds/?b=143&p=O&pp= old English sheepdog http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&q=Skye+terrier&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title Skye Terrier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shar_Pei Shar Pei http://www.pedigree.com.au/breeds/?b=57&p=C&pp= Cocker Spaniel http://www.chienparadis.net/ Dogue de Bordeaux http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/staffordshirebullterrier.htm Staffordshire Bull Terrier How well do you think the generic canine facial expression chart would do for these breeds? (And the generic body postures) Jay R. Feierman: Different breeds of dogs have different static facial features due to selective breeding for these static facial features. Some of the static facial features give the anthropomorphic impression that the dog looks permanently happy or sad, etc. However, a true expressive behavior is the end result of a movement of muscles that produce a momentary signal based on some feature of the movement, often the peak of the muscular contraction. The expressive behavior then signals that the individual is in a specific mood. So, I would not say that the various breeds of dogs show different expressive behaviors in their face on a permanent basis. They just show anthropomorphic fixed expressions that do not correlate with the dog being in a specific mood. That being said, when humans are depressed for example, one can often see a sad affect on their face for a prolonged time. However, it is not the equivalent of a breed-specific facial feature, as the sad affect goes away when they are no longer depressed. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 20:40:22 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jenny, I am being sincere and honest in my questions. I am not an expert on dog behavior but I do know quite a bit about ethology for other species. I have always had a pet dog so it is not as though I am not familiar with dogs. I just am not knowledgeable about the ethology of dog behavior. Much of what I know about dogs is based on my own limited experiences interacting with them plus my general knowledge about ethology. I'm sorry if what I have posted is not helpful or useful. Regards, Jay R. Feierman ----- Original Message ----- From: EJ Haskins To: Jay R. Feierman Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication Honestly Jay. Are you as obtuse as you sound or do you think you are being funny or clever. Or have you never touched or lived with a dog?? Or what!! If you were my tutor I'd drop out of your course. If you were one of my dog training OR biloogy students, I'd chuck you out of my course. Much of what you seem to thinmk you are so clever for saying is a given. I am endeavouring to have a discusssion not to write a text book or a doctroal thesis on domestic dog behaviour. Good bye Jenny ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 3:21 AM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication Jay R. Feierman: So when one is looking for easily recognized "body language" expressive behavior in a domestic dog that is signaling appeasement and willingness to socially interact in a friendly and non-threatening way, do you believe the face gives more information than the tail? Jenny H.: Absolutely!! Look at the eyes (pupil size, clarity, movement of the eye-ball) and the commissure of the mouth. Jay R. Feierman [OLD]: Do you really think that looking at a dog's pupil size is a more "easily recognized body language expressive behavior" than looking at a wagging tail? Also, pupil size is mediated by the autonomic nervous system and is not an expressive behavior per se. It is just a general signal of arousal. In a human one can see dilated pupils in both fear and sexual arousal, which are very different emotional states. Jenny H: If the face is saying one thing and the tail another it is because you are misinterpretting the tail!! Jay R. Feierman: That is just arbitrary. How do you know you are correct? The real issue is how does one methodologically determine the function of an expressive behavior? The only way to do this is to see the result or outcome of the behavior in a conspecific, as the behavioral signal in the expressive behavior co-evolved with the response to the signal in the recipient. You would need to observe two dogs interacting and observe the response in one dog to another dog's expressive signaling behavior to determine the function of the expressive signaling behavior. Jenny H: As living with humans is a domestic dog's natural environment, studying wild/feral dogs tells us less about domestic dogs than actually looking at "owned" pets and working dogs. Jay R. Feierman: That brings up a very interesting question, given that dogs have been selectively bred by humans for thousands of years. Do the expressive behaviors of dogs cause changes in the behavior of other dogs or do they just cause changes in the humans who observe these behaviors? Since humans have selectively bred dogs, they could have bred expressive behaviors into them to which humans respond but which other dogs do not respond. I'm dubious that this is the case, however. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 14:48:28 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In which case they represent what the director/actor/acting school THINKS is courtship behaviour. If anybody behaved even like your "most realistic" example they would be seen by almost everybody as putting on a very unconvincing display. Acting and characters from books (which I have seen elsewhere used to "illustrate' certain things that the author is trying to say) do NOT constitute evidence of anything other that what the author/ actor/ user of the text video footage thinks is what happens. I do know , and I have no intention of looking up the reference -- anyone interested in it can Google for themselves -- that for most of human history depictions of horses galloping bore no resemblance to any position that a galloping horse ever took. It wasn't until time lapse photography was invented and used that people recognised this. I also know from my own experience of editing video footage, that "flirtatious behaviour' in human beings and what 'works in real life is very very fleeting - it can be one frame in a five minute sequence, and yet the observer of the complete sequence will interpret that behaviour as flirtation and no so interpret what looks to the unemotional eye as very similar behaviour. (No references and no access to editing equipment to be able to demonstrate what I mean.) A girl wobbling back and forth and looking up and down at her handbag, merely looks like a bad actor. In Australia she might be viewed as an easy lay :-( But you'd need to ask a man that! Sorry. Go out and get some "field" photographs/video and analyse them. Jenny H ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman Jenny, They are all "acting," as they come from cable TV mainly from Latin America. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 14:56:00 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" > But can't even very closely related animals have different functions for the same behaviour?> Isn't a human smiling at another human usually considered to be giving a friendly gesture, whereas amongst chimps and gorillas, a smile is considered to be a threat?> Chris Even within the same species, same race. I have known some people where a smile means they are about to do or say something cruel. :-( Personal experience. Though there is evidence 'out there. http://www.world-science.net/othernews/081107_bullies Jenny H Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 21:30:16 -0700 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Jenny H: Sorry. Go out and get some "field" photographs/video and analyse them. Jay R. Feierman: Such videos exist. They are not easily available to post on the internet. The video clips I showed came from 200 hours of cable TV viewing, mainly from Latin America, in which 12 minutes showed proceptive courtship behaviors in women. They are just illustrations. Proceptive courtship behaviors of women have been described along with their consequences in singles bars and university libraries. The more a woman does them, the more male attention she gets. The behaviors on the videos are the same behaviors that are described in Monica Moore's studies of women's courtship behaviors. Unfortunately, the link to this article no longer works but the reference is Monica M. Moore. Nonverbal Courtship Patterns in Women: Context and Consequences. Ethology and Sociobiology 6:237-248, 1985. Appreciate also that the only reason I linked to these videos on the applied ethology group is because someone suggested that a dog's tail wagging is approach/avoidance behavior showing motivational or emotional conflict. Whether these videos are actresses or were videotaped in singles bars with real people, they illustrate the principle of approach/avoidance behavior either done simultaneously or rapidly alternating as dedicated human female proceptive courtship behaviors. They are somewhat exaggerated by the actresses. However, they are exaggerating behaviors that are used in real human courtship. This is an area I've studied for many years and about which I do have expertise. I am confident in what I'm saying. Courtship behavior is one of the areas in human ethology about which much is known. ----- Original Message ----- From: EJ Haskins To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:48 PM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication In which case they represent what the director/actor/acting school THINKS is courtship behaviour. If anybody behaved even like your "most realistic" example they would be seen by almost everybody as putting on a very unconvincing display. Acting and characters from books (which I have seen elsewhere used to "illustrate' certain things that the author is trying to say) do NOT constitute evidence of anything other that what the author/ actor/ user of the text video footage thinks is what happens. I do know , and I have no intention of looking up the reference -- anyone interested in it can Google for themselves -- that for most of human history depictions of horses galloping bore no resemblance to any position that a galloping horse ever took. It wasn't until time lapse photography was invented and used that people recognised this. I also know from my own experience of editing video footage, that "flirtatious behaviour' in human beings and what 'works in real life is very very fleeting - it can be one frame in a five minute sequence, and yet the observer of the complete sequence will interpret that behaviour as flirtation and no so interpret what looks to the unemotional eye as very similar behaviour. (No references and no access to editing equipment to be able to demonstrate what I mean.) A girl wobbling back and forth and looking up and down at her handbag, merely looks like a bad actor. In Australia she might be viewed as an easy lay :-( But you'd need to ask a man that! Sorry. Go out and get some "field" photographs/video and analyse them. Jenny H ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman Jenny, They are all "acting," as they come from cable TV mainly from Latin America. Subject: Re: Interspecies Communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 16:15:00 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Not to mention that all human smiles arfe not symmetrical NOR tuened up at the corners. Mostly the corners of the mouth are pulled back -- many people are assymetricl and some people's lips open in a big rectangle to show all their tetth while others t3nd to smile with a closed mouth. Ranging from ( to ) to I to O to a rectangle which I can't find on terh keyboard with my email :-) Jenny H Coffs expressive behavior on the face of a dog that I would call a "smile" in the sense that the term is used to describe a human expressive behavior in which the corners of the mouth are turned up symmetrically >> well, I never said it looked just like a human smile. :-) Subject: Re: Interspecies Communication From: Christina Lager Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:07:01 +0100 To: "Jay R . Feierman" CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca, human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Hi Jay I live with five dogs that smile as an appeasement signal. There is only about 500 chesapeakes in Denmark so their owners more or less know each other - at least us breeders all know each other. ;o) And I can safely say that we see what must be a genetical component to the behaviour. Certain dogs smile a lot more than others, and they pass it on; and no, it's not something they learn from their mums, 'cause puppies after smiling males smile a lot, even though they never met their father. We (husband and I) bred a smiling dam to a smiling male (not because of the smile, that was incidental) and got a litter that are world champion smilers. We kept one of the puppies. (Anuke) - she smiled at me when she was 3 weeks old. Very cute .. and of course, as in all else, there are a learned segment to the behaviour, it's usually strongly reinforced by the reaction of the owners. Some dogs only smile at humans, others use it in interdog interactions too. But it's a lot more common to see the smile directed at a human than at another dog. Most chessies understand the smile as an appeasement signal in interdog interactions. But I have seen chessies smiling at other breeds, and be misunderstood. (The other dog started and/or became aggressive) My Anuke smiles so much that I, just for fun, captured it with clikertraining and put it on cue when she was about 5 years old. She will now still smile as an appeasement signal but she can also do it on cue. She will also smile if you smile at her. She mostly smiles at family or people she knows - rarely at strangers. I attached a - rather bad - picture of her smiling when she was about 8 months old. It's the best picture I have at this PC. no, I don't have it on video. I don't own a video cam. The smile is accompanied by a shaking of the head from side to side, and sometimes a bit up-down. The mouth is short and depending on the size of the lips more or less of the teeth is seen (my other bitch, Saga, has larger, lips and a more "hound-like" face, when she smiles you can hardly see the teeth). As the dog smile it sucks in breath in a short hiss. The smile can end in a sneeze, particularly if the dog smiles very intensely. Please notice the position of the ears - back and tucked in. (They can look almost like a little ladies hat - so we (thats us and our friends among the chessieowners in Denmark) call it "hat-ears" ;o) ) Also an appeasement /submissive signal. The tail will be low and wagging in a fast rythm, but in small movements. Often the entire body will be held low. Some dogs, Like Saga, will keep their heads in a lowered position as they smile and sort of turn is sideways - tilting it from side to side - Anuke tends to move her head up and down and is a movement looking like the start of a headshake. Individual differences... As for the tail... generally (for my breed): a tail held high and stiff, pointing upwards is a dog that is very sure of itself and is somewhat aroused - e.g. greeting a strange dog, scenting something - particularly scenting a predator. It might wag - intensity increases with increased arousal... Whether there is aggression or not is something you would have to look at the ears and face to see. This position of the tail is used by both parties in a male-female interaction with the female in heat. In that case their ears are held in a high, side-backwards position (we call that "courtship-ears") Tail in neutral, wagging slowly is an relaxed, secure-feeling, happy dog. Tail in low is also relaxed, if still: rather bored, completely relaxed, or if wagging then a bit unsecure. Tail tucked between legs is, as most know, a very insecure dog. the rythm of wagging still increases with the arousal of the dog. And of course there are all the in-between positions. If you are as interested in these things as your mails seem to indicate, then I think you would benefit from looking at some of the existing material on dog ethology. There is quite a lot outthere ;o) And a lot of what you are asking for is reasearch that has already been done - a good place to start would be these: Roger Abrantes' book (Dog Language: An Encyclopedia of Canine Behavior) - this one was originally published in 1987, and he has updated it ever since, so look for the newest edition ;o) Turid Rugaas ( On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals) a book with some simple clear drawings to illustrate appeasement signals in dogs. Barbara Handelman has also written a book: Canine Behavior: A Photo-Illustrated Handbook that I understand is very good source, I haven't received it yet ;o) And of course, you mention that you have a dog in your house. Learn from the master. Sit down and observe your dog.... I am eternally surprised at how people can live for years with a dog in the house and never really *look* at it... best regards Christina Lager DVM Sinding Denmark ----- Original meddelelse ----- Fra: Jay R. Feierman Til: applied-ethology@usask.ca Cc: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Dato: Ons, 04. feb 2009 02:22 Emne: Re: Interspecies Communication Jay R. Feierman: Although I am not an expert in dog ethology, I have never once in my life seen any expressive behavior on the face of a dog that I would call a "smile" in the sense that the term is used to describe a human expressive behavior in which the corners of the mouth are turned up symmetrically and there is a contraction around the eye muscles. One does not even see a smile-like behavior in our closest primate relative, the chimpanzee. Can you provide some evidence for what you are saying? If you can video-tape this behavior, you can post it to the group. Tracy B. Ann: Jay, Google (I am using that word as a verb) "dogs" and "smiling". You'll find tons of stuff. I even remember a few fun tests to see if you could tell a snarling dog from a smiling dog. Dalmatians are a breed that smile. I lived with one whose smiles were few and far between. She was very affectionate but didn't smile a whole lot. Most people were thrilled and honored when they got one of her smiles. She loved my window cleaners and smiled at them every time they came. They were always terrified! Jay R. Feierman: I put "smile dog" into Google images and got these videos: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt--KVJCVpPmac/my_dog_smiling_on_command/ and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6m_8ZFxtks and http://video.yahoo.com/network/100284668?v=799001 and http://greattube.net/video/114657/Dog-smile-funny.html and http://www.clipser.com/watch_video/302634 and http://crazymotion.net/smiling-dog/wSlGLnUhdS3MjAy.html. Except for the one of these videos of the Boston terrier, most almost look like flemen type behaviors that one sees in ungulates http://www.starsunmoon.com/images/River-flemen,crop.jpg. They also look somewhat like a silent bared teeth display in primates (an affinitive or friendly signal) or a fear grimace as seen in non-human primates http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2953602647_f6526eff2b.jpg?v=0. When baboons display their teeth with vocalization it looks like http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Hamadryas-Baboon-Male-Threat-Display-Baring-Teeth-Posters_i2634537_.htm. Is this appeasement? Doesn't look too friendly. There are really two issues when talking about smiling in dogs compared to smiling in humans: (1) Are the movements themselves the same as the movements that produce what we call a human smile? (2) Do the movements have the same function? Again, because this issue crosses over to human ethology, I am double posting it on both Yahoo groups. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ mvh Christina Lager Subject: Dog Smiles: was Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:36:38 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Jay, you are ABSOLUTELY right. These are not dog smiles -- they are what SOME people call dog smiles and teach their dogs to do on command. It is the "Dally Smile" which again is NOT a smile but a 'friendly submissive gesture. Dogs smile by stretching their lips/commisure back so their cheeks fold into deep "laugh lines". And the eyes sparkle --a really BIG smile, just as in humans, will crinkle up the eyes -- A REAL dog smile is a thing of beauty and a joy forever, and also a real delight. For some strange reason, many people do NOT recognise it (because they have been brought up on "Wolf Ethograms" maybe?) and they rend to be not photographed. why I don't know. Maybe most dogs are shy of the camera so relax into their gentle relaxed face/smile in front of the camera? Certainly you don't see smiles in 'Conformation" type dog portraits. Again, why I cannot understand. I don't have any photos of my own dog on this computer to show you a real smile, unfortunately. But look out for them. They do exist when dogs are happy and relaxed. A good time to see it is taking your dog for a run along the beach (NOT on lead -- let the dog experience the joy of wind in his ears .-) Is this copied from humans? I don't think so -- it seems just too, too natural. http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-song-of-the-ungirt-runners/ (This might encompass what brings a smile to a dog's face :-) Cheers, Jenny H Coffs Australia Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 5:59 PM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication In a message dated 2/3/2009 5:41:31 PM Central Standard Time, jfeierman@comcast.net writes: If ears back is an accepted appeasement behavior in dogs (versus some other function), you would need to show that when one dog was threatening another dog, the dog who was being threatened put his or her ears back prior to assuming a full submissive posture and the dog being aggressive became less aggressive or turned friendly. Is that the case? >> Yes, it is. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:46:13 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca OK. There's ANOTHER free suggestion for a PhD Thesis :-) Gee, I'm generous :-) (Smug smile with lips closed -- perfectly symmetrical as is common in mentally retarded people, (so I'm told which is one of the reason my mother had me assesssed for mental retardation when I was three) but in my case representing as inclination to be ambidextrous :-) Jenny H Coffs OZ (Hate the expression but SO much quicker to type :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman Jay R. Feierman [NEW]: Yes. However, one would need to video tape the different types of tail wagging and show the videos to multiple viewers (raters) to see if you can get an acceptable degree of inter-rater reliability for each category of wag. Once that is done, one would then need to determine the function of each of the different types of tail wagging by observing the result or outcome of the type of tail wagging on the behavior of a conspecific (another dog). Has this been done? Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:11:41 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sorry Folks, That was a piurely provcate email to Jay, and I never had any intention that it should appear on the open list. I might be odd, but there are things I will say privately to a person that i would NEVER say in public or behind their backs. Soncerely, Jenny H Oz Honestly Jay. Are you as obtuse as you sound or do you think you are being funny or clever.\ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:20:03 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Exactly! Do you think that different breeds of dogs cannot also me misled by these differences?? Jenny H Oz ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman Different breeds of dogs have different static facial features due to selective breeding for these static facial features. Subject: New question From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 03:54:13 -0800 (PST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Has anyone ever seen a flat affect in a mammal? CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Wild animal welfare From: "Camila M. N. Jobim" Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 04:06:21 -0800 (PST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi, I'm a brazilian student, and I'd like to know if someone have informations about wild animal welfare. I'll work in a recue program and my focus will be guarantee the welfare during the transportation and capture. If someone could help me with your own pratice or articles i'll be very grateful. Regards Camila Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10 - Celebridades - Música - Esportes Subject: RE: Dog Smiles From: Sue Bowers Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 08:24:00 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Enjoying some of the submissions on this topic. :) I hope that these attached .jpgs are not too graphics-intensive for anyone's internet connection (?) but wanted to see what sort of smile folks thought they were! I believe that a lot of times, people "see" smiles or other emotions in dogs because the facial expressions resemble our own, when we are feeling a certain way. I have also seen dogs "smile" when stressed, partly because they are panting &/or trying to appease... Now, in the attached pics (since I took them all, I feel qualified to comment on mood ), the canines were indeed happy...though I can't say whether they are intentionally smiling, or whether I simply combined the way their lips fall with the fact that I know they were in good spirits ;) and call that a smile. I think the difference is, as Jenny noted, in the eyes... ~Sue From: EJ Haskins [mailto:ejhaskins@bigpond.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 3:37 AM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Dog Smiles: was Interspecies communication Jay, you are ABSOLUTELY right. These are not dog smiles -- they are what SOME people call dog smiles and teach their dogs to do on command. It is the "Dally Smile" which again is NOT a smile but a 'friendly submissive gesture. Dogs smile by stretching their lips/commisure back so their cheeks fold into deep "laugh lines". And the eyes sparkle --a really BIG smile, just as in humans, will crinkle up the eyes -- A REAL dog smile is a thing of beauty and a joy forever, and also a real delight. For some strange reason, many people do NOT recognise it (because they have been brought up on "Wolf Ethograms" maybe?) and they rend to be not photographed. why I don't know. Maybe most dogs are shy of the camera so relax into their gentle relaxed face/smile in front of the camera? Certainly you don't see smiles in 'Conformation" type dog portraits. Again, why I cannot understand. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:02:45 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In a message dated 2/3/2009 11:10:33 PM Central Standard Time, ejhaskins@bigpond.com writes: In dogs, the brachycephalic breeds tend to naturally look their human's in the eye >> I assume this is based only on your personal opinion as I know of no data to suppor this, (nor has MY personal experience supported this contention.) Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Dog Smiles From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:14:03 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sue, these are what Patricia McConnell would call smiles and which would relate to "happiness". If it will come through, I have attached a photo of a "grinning" dog of the "genetic" type. This behavior is pretty much directed only at humans and usually in a greeting context. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: Simon Gadbois Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 11:18:16 -0400 To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca, human-ethology@yahoogroups.com On 3-Feb-09, at 1:02 PM, Jay R. Feierman wrote: > Chris Redenbach: As to consciousness, if memory serves (and it may not), altruism was once thought of as an indicator of consciousness. Dogs exhibit altruism. > > Jay R. Feierman: That is very interesting. I have not heard this before - that altruism may be an indicator of consciousness. I'm going to co-post my response to the Human Ethology Yahoo grouphttp://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/, as I'm sure this will generate discussion there. Simon Gadbois: Chris probably makes a distinction (conscious or not...) between "psychological altruism" (describing a "state of mind", i.e., requiring "Theory of Mind" and "sociobiological altruism", the mere "altruistic behaviour" without a reference to self-awareness ro cognitive control). I believe Sober and Wilson ("Onto Others") made a similar distinction? Subject: Re: Object recognition in canines From: Simon Gadbois Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 11:18:45 -0400 To: ethology network , human-ethology@yahoogroups.com On 3-Feb-09, at 1:02 PM, Jay R. Feierman wrote: > Chris Redenbach: As to consciousness, if memory serves (and it may not), altruism was once thought of as an indicator of consciousness. Dogs exhibit altruism. > > Jay R. Feierman: That is very interesting. I have not heard this before - that altruism may be an indicator of consciousness. I'm going to co-post my response to the Human Ethology Yahoo grouphttp://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/, as I'm sure this will generate discussion there. Simon Gadbois: Chris probably makes a distinction (conscious or not...) between "psychological altruism" (describing a "state of mind", i.e., requiring "Theory of Mind" and "sociobiological altruism", the mere "altruistic behaviour" without a reference to self-awareness ro cognitive control). I believe Sober and Wilson ("Onto Others") made a similar distinction? Subject: Re: Canine Expressive Behaviors From: Simon Gadbois Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 11:20:26 -0400 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , ethology network Simon Gadbois: It is a fine book. Not great at referencing modern sources, so the terminology may not be the most common (but that could be a translation issue; for example, for vocalizations, urination postures). On 3-Feb-09, at 1:12 PM, Jay R. Feierman wrote: > I just bought this book on Amazon.com, Dog Language: An Encyclopedia of Canine Behavior by Roger Abrantes http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Language-Encyclopedia-Canine-Behavior/dp/0966048407/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233680583&sr=1-3. It is the sort of book I've been looking for on canine expressive behaviors. Has anyone read this book or does anyone have an opinion of it? At $13.57 new it is a book I can afford. > > Regards, > Jay R. Feierman > > To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: John Burchard Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:23:12 -0800 To: EJ Haskins , Applied Ethology list Jenny Haskins wrote: > Terriers, I have more problem with. Their predatory drive is not > attenuated -- they tend to have been selected for killing. Which is > probably why most terriers kept as pets tend to be small. Not historically - terriers were working dogs, and had to be small to work underground, e.g. in a fox earth or badger sett. Many of the show versions are already too big, or too wide around the chest, to be able to do the work. Terriers as pets - or at least, primarily as pets, is a recent and IMHO not altogether wonderful development. Terriers are, emphatically, not lap dogs, and I can see no valid reason for trying to change them into lap dogs. There are plenty of real lap dogs out there to choose from. A similar dilemma - if that's the right word - faces many working breeds. People want to make them into something entirely different, something which has the appearance (and the cachet and the legends) of the working breed they originally were, but not the mental or even physiological makeup. The results are often problematic and, on relatively rare occasions, even dangerous. > Few breeds are instinctively aggressive to humans. I understand that > some of the breeds proscribed in Australia, were actually developed > in the Americas for 'slave capture'. I have read of the use of dogs > by Pizarro and Cortez to "subdue" the natives of the countries they > invaded. Possibly these South American Breeds are descendants of > these dogs? And IF so, and IF they are still being bred to attack > humans, then they certainly are not dogs that should be being kept as > pet dogs -- their retained instincts I could see as making them still > extremely dangerous. There is a lot of romantic bullshit circulating about some of those breeds - well, about most of the "bull breeds" for that matter. Pizarro and Cortez lived five hundred years ago. Any connection between war dogs of those days and any modern breed is certainly pretty tenuous. I'm not sure what breeds are proscribed in Australia, but the "fearsome" South Americans I'm familiar with (e.g. Dogo Argentino) were developed for hunting large fierce game. They are used as "catch dogs" for boar hunting in the U.S. The Bloodhound, most notorious for tracking fugitives (slave or otherwise), is not at all aggressive. The fugitive pursued by Bloodhounds has nothing to fear from the dogs - only from their handlers. The most fearsome of the South Americans is, I suppose, the Fila Brasileiro. Fugitive slave stories are part of the mystique of that breed, which by its appearance would seem to be derived from some of the Iberian guard dogs, themselves formidable enough. The Fila is said to be naturally suspicious of strangers, and very protective of its owners and their families. My own personal, very limited experience of them conforms to that expectation. Such dogs do have their legitimate uses - one sacrificed his own life to save the lives of a friend's family, when their home in a remote part of South America was invaded by armed bandidos - but owning one in a modern urban setting places a high burden of responsibility on the owner (a responsibility which is fully and carefully met by the friend in question). > BUT most pet dogs today are descended from dogs selected for > thousands of years to be non-aggressive to humans. And therefore we > are NOT fighting natural inclination. All we should need to do, as > "domestic" dogs owners, is rear our pups within our human society, > introducing them to humans of all ages when they are young. > > We shouldn't need to be too worried about 'predatory triggers', > because most of our dogs will normally want to chase of carry the > ball :-) I don't think it's quite that simple, but nearly . I have dogs with a very high "predatory drive" - they have been used historically for thousands of years, and are still used today, to pursue and capture swift-footed game such as hares or gazelles. My own are so used - they hunt regularly. They have - as I have reported before - no difficulty at all discriminating between things to be chased, and things not to be chased. It's generally not even necessary to teach them which is which - they figure that out themselves. Our own cats were sacred; other cats were chased (and killed if caught). Children - familiar or otherwise - are sacred (they love kids). Their original breeders were nomadic shepherds, who could not have tolerated dogs which bothered their children or their sheep or lambs (or goats or camels or even a pet rabbit). Salukis have privileged status in the Muslim world, at least among traditional tribesfolk - they are family members, not "dogs". Their behavior reflects that - one of the things I find interesting about them. Reverting to the terrier theme with which this post began: my dogs have been "selected for killing" probably as much as any terrier. They can and do easily kill prey animals larger than themselves. They are, however, also - by virtue of the same heritage which produced their remarkable hunting abilities - completely safe around children and most livestock, even without any training (though they might be dangerous to any human or animal who threatened those children ...). So it is not that simple after all. You have to know your animals. Theory doesn't hack it. FWIW I am a scientist, now a biologist but originally trained in mathematical physics. I have, I suppose, as much respect for theory as anyone. Perhaps the most important thing to know about any theory is where it will NOT take you . John -- John E. Burchard, Ph.D. Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: John Burchard Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:26:34 -0800 To: Cecilia Lambert , Applied Ethology list Cecilia Lambert wrote: > Talk about getting off topic. I certainly don't see coyotes and > wolves as you see them. How did my short statement draw such ire from > you? To ignore innate behaviors that might still exist in some dogs, > if the right trigger is presented, seems to me to be very dangerous > for children. I don't think you can test for those triggers with a > doll or a fake hand. Neither do I. Those tests are IMHO simply ridiculous. Some level of "innate predatory behavior" is present in all dogs, though in some cases it has been greatly modified (Jenny cited a couple of excellent examples). Most dogs also have excellent powers of discrimination and do not - in spite of the news media - go around indiscriminately attacking people. Many dogs are quite territorial and under certain circumstances that territoriality can result in attack on a human. As a rule it takes two to tango, however, and some degree of irresponsible or unwise behavior on the part of one or more of the humans (dog owner and/or victim) seems nearly always to be involved. IMHO Disney has much to answer for. As a child (now more than 70 years ago) I was taught never to approach strange dogs unless explicitly invited to do so by the owner. In those days - in prosperous Bostonian suburbia, not only in the rural South - most dogs ran free, and fenced yards were a rarity (their owners often considered antisocial). The parents of one of my school friends did have a fenced yard. They had a Chow Chow, considered somewhat aloof (and not much resembling today's version of that breed), and no child entered that yard except by invitation and under adult supervision. My family had Bull Terriers (who also did not greatly resemble today's version ), who ran loose like everyone else. They loved all children (though they weren't too fond of intruding dogs) and the only danger that ever arose from one of them was when Kippy ran through our yard carrying a large piece of timber, with which he could easily have inadvertently brained one of us. I vividly remember the excitement that created among parents and neighbors. I was four or five years old at the time. > A dog chained in a yard can become very territorial and when that dog > attacks a child who runs through the yard and falls in front of the > dog and is then attacked, everyone says, "I don't know why that > happened. He has never attacked anyone before." Territorial behavior > is innate and just waiting to be triggered. > > It is people thinking that dogs are slavering wild beats of prey who > will attack anything moving that is anathema to the dog > owning/training fraternity (sorority?). It is this attitude that > leads to increasing bans on dog ownership and restrictions on where > dogs may be taken in public, These restrictions in turn lead to much > poorer socialisation of pet dogs and thus actually increase the > danger of dog attacks. Yes. Even fenced yards can be a bit problematic - "fence fighting" is addictive, and often stokes aggression or even creates it where it would otherwise not be perceptible. > As far as slavering wild beats who will see a child as prey: > > Coyotes, foxes, wolves maybe. > > Dingoes possibly but not necessarily. Wild wolves, accustomed to humans but not socialized to them, may very well regard humans as prey. AFAIK children are regularly killed and eaten by wolves in India. Not long ago an adult human was killed and partially eaten by wolves in Canada. Those wolves were habituated to humans, and accustomed to scavenging garbage around a camp site. OTOH I had for two years a human-socialized wolf and an infant (my son) in the same house, with no problems whatsoever. John -- John E. Burchard, Ph.D. Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com Subject: Re: Dog Smiles From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 11:05:43 -0700 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Lore, If expressive behaviors are inter-individual signals, and if the behavior in the photo below that you call dog "smiling" is pretty much directed to humans and usually in a greeting context, how do you know the function of the behavior? By saying that it usually occurs in a greeting context, you are only saying what context it occurs in. By greeting context I presume you mean the context of two individuals meeting who had previously been apart. The context alone does not tell you the function of the behavior. For example, there are lots of human non-verbal behaviors that mainly (but not exclusively) occur in a greeting context. The wave and eyebrow flash are examples. Think of the difference in greeting a friend or a foe. The non-verbal behaviors would be different. If the behavior in a dog that you are calling "smiling" is really homologous in form and has the same function as human smiling, then one would not expect to see it only in greeting contexts. Humans smile at times other then when they are greeting someone who they have been apart from. I'm really just asking a methodological question. How does one determine the function of a particular behavior in a dog? I note that in the photo below the ears are also back. What does the tail do when one sees this dog "smile?" The other issue that primatologists use in categorizing expressive behaviors is if the behavior is accompanied by a vocalization. The open mouth, bared teeth display when "silent" in a baboon has a very a different function then when accompanied by some type of vocalization. When dogs "smile" as in the picture below, do they make a vocalization? If so, what is it? Also, the term "smile" can be described both by form and function. Even if the behavior has the same form as a human smile, one would then need to demonstrate that the function is the same as it is in humans. Why would such a behavior in a dog be usually directed to humans? I wonder if such behavior could not exist just because of selective positive reinforcement by humans, such as saying something positive every time one sees the behavior. One really needs to observe this behavior in the context of dog-dog dyads and see the effect of this behavior on the other dog to know its proximate function, at least between dogs. This behavior's function in relationship to humans may be for the human to say, "Good boy" in a happy pleasant tone. Until one knows the answers to some of these questions, it would seem prudent to call such behavior a "smile" in quotes. I hope I am not being too academic in my style and type of questions for this group. I am very interested in ethology but admit I am just learning about the ethology of dogs. I'm using the same tone and asking the same types of questions that are routinely asked on the human ethology group. I'm going to cc my response to the human ethology group, as the issue of "what is the function of this behavior" is also an issue in human ethology. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: LIHaug@aol.com To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:14 AM Subject: Re: Dog Smiles Sue, these are what Patricia McConnell would call smiles and which would relate to "happiness". If it will come through, I have attached a photo of a "grinning" dog of the "genetic" type. This behavior is pretty much directed only at humans and usually in a greeting context. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: The Biology of Cat Behavior From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 12:34:43 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com In going through my bookcase, I just found my lost copy of The Domestic Cat: The Biology of its Behaviour, edited by Dennis C. Turner and Patrick Bateson. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1988. This book is multi-authored by academic cat researchers, including a chapter by Paul Leyhausen. The book's back cover has an endorsement by Konrad Lorenz. If anyone is interested in a multi-authored academic type book on cat behavior that includes lots of data and references (my type of book), this book is recommended. The book is an outgrowth of a Symposium by the same name held at University of Zurich-Irchel in September, 1986. The book can be bought now on Amazon.com used for $7.02. Such a bargain given the used price for Leyhausen's original book on Cat Behavior. See http://www.amazon.com/Domestic-Cat-Biology-its-Behaviour/dp/0521636485/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233775365&sr=1-1. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 12:55:26 -0700 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Jay R. Feierman: Different breeds of dogs have different static facial features due to selective breeding for these static facial features. Jenny H.: Exactly! Do you think that different breeds of dogs cannot also be misled by these differences?? Jay R. Feierman: I don' t know. What is the evidence that dogs are misled by static facial features of certain breeds of dogs? Other variables - temperment, size, vocalization - would all need to be controlled for. I have said in another posting that in my limited personal experience, I do not think my own pet dogs have responded to my facial affects. They respond to the volume and pitch of my voice and to my general body posture and movements. I am determining if they respond by their expressive behavior. Is there any evidence that dogs respond appropriately to human facial affects alone? Again, all the other variables would have to be controlled for, as when a human has an angry facial affect, the human also tends to have a certain body posture and talk in a loud, low tone. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 13:07:58 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jay R. Feierman: Courtship behavior is one of the areas in human ethology about which much is known Jenny H: And yet you do not mention pheromones or neurochemicals. (References if you need them.) Jay R. Feierman: I know the literature on pheromones and human courtship behavior quite well, as the topic has been discussed almost daily on the Yahoo Human Ethology group for more than a year. Without going into the details on the applied ethology group, the role of pheromones in courtship and copulation is most evident in small-brained nocturnal rodents. The role of pheromones in courtship and mating appears to be much diminished in most birds and old world primates, including humans. It is possible to demonstrate some small preferences in the laboratory related to odors and pheromones, such as "what t-shirt smells the best?" However, the role that pheromones versus visual, auditory, and tactile senses play in humans is very much diminished in the natural environment. If you are interested, go to the human ethology home page and put "pheromone" into the search engine. There are 844 postings on human pheromones. One of the arguments given for the diminshed role of pheromones in human courtship and copulatory behavior is the comparison of human males to male dogs. If you take a cotton swab and rub it across the vulva of a female dog in estrus, the cotton swab will cause great excitement and approach behavior in any adult male dog, even one with no prior sexual experience. If you do the same thing with a human female, a cotton swab rubbed over her vulva at the time she is ovulating will be totally ignored by human males. That is just one example of the diminshed role of olfaction and pheromones in humans, compared to other mammals. Also, the number of olfactory receptor genes in humans are a fraction of what they are in noctural rodents. Most of the human olfactory genes are "turned off." There is lots of other evidence, which can be found on the human ethology search engine. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: RE: Interspecies communication From: Sue Bowers Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:17:02 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I think that we humans tend to get hung up on one or two specific details, over-analyze, and lose sight of the big picture. Canids do not appear to lose sight of the big picture. As far as humans go, dogs pick up on not only our posture and vocalisations, but also our pheromones, and our mood/emotions. Anyone who has been close with dogs knows that they can pick up on your mood, although of course HOW we 'know' this may be very unscientific! ;) Insensitive as humans are, even we can pick up on the mood of other humans at times. (Ever walked into a room with a "dark cloud" over it, because an argument had just taken place? You don't have to study the other humans' details to be aware of the "bad vibe"...again, getting into shaky ground here, and I don't claim to be able to explain it, other than perhaps pheromones again...(?) but I think most here have experienced it.) W.r.t. dogs being able to grasp the intentions of other dogs, I am sceptical that most breed-specific modifications have a huge impact. I have seen two nearly-pure wolves submit to a (long coated) Shih Tzu...also near-pures submit to a Cocker, and another who was submissive to the family chihuahua. There is an awful lot involved in the communications package and I don't think everything needs to be spot-on to prevent miscommunication. (I *do* think that things like the cut-and-shaped ears of the Doberman contribute to bad "first impressions"...not necessarily insurmountable, but it does bring up the question of how important "first impressions" are to dogs! ;-) ~Sue! Jay R. Feierman: What is the evidence that dogs are misled by static facial features of certain breeds of dogs? Other variables - temperment, size, vocalization - would all need to be controlled for. I have said in another posting that in my limited personal experience, I do not think my own pet dogs have responded to my facial affects. They respond to the volume and pitch of my voice and to my general body posture and movements. I am determining if they respond by their expressive behavior. Is there any evidence that dogs respond appropriately to human facial affects alone? Again, all the other variables would have to be controlled for, as when a human has an angry facial affect, the human also tends to have a certain body posture and talk in a loud, low tone. Subject: Re: trouble posting messages From: "John R. Lane" Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 13:23:44 -0800 (PST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca, cissy stamm Yes Cissy, I get the same at times. When I know I am using my correctly registered e-mail address for this group I usually just keep trying till the server accepts my posting. This usually only takes a couple of tries. A different problem I have is trying to unsubscribe with a previous address which I also still own but every thing addressed to it is forwarded to my current one so as a result I get two copies of everything.I have tried several times using the correct unsubscibe procedure but for some reaosn I am not getting unsubscribed at the original address. Regards John L. --- On Thu, 5/2/09, cissy stamm wrote: From: cissy stamm Subject: trouble posting messages To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Received: Thursday, 5 February, 2009, 12:54 PM I'm getting the following error msg for e-mail to the while e-mails to individuals appear to be going through. Can anyone help? The following message to was undeliverable. The reason for the problem: 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.1.1 : Recipient address rejected: User unknown in relay recipient table' Reporting-MTA: dns; smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net Final-Recipient: rfc822;Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure) Remote-MTA: dns; [128.233.208.59] Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.1.1 : Recipient address rejected: User unknown in relay recipient table' (delivery attempts: 0) Thanks. Cissy Make Yahoo!7 your homepage and win a trip to the Quiksilver Pro. Find out more. Subject: Re: trouble posting messages From: joseph stookey Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:27:13 -0600 To: cissy stamm CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Cissy, It was my understanding that only the administrators would see the error messages so I am hoping that is true. When I get a few I just figure it is because of my unique priveledges as one of the list administrators, but if everyone who sends a message to the list is getting them too, then we should see what can be done to limit that exposure. Is there anyone else out there who is receiving error messages after you send a message to the applied-ethology list server? Let me know so we can see how wide spread or limited this problem might be. Cheers, Joe P.S. I am enjoying the conversations on the network even though I don't have anything in particular to contribute, so continue the discussions and know that there are probably plenty of other people that find them useful even if they do not chime in. And of course there will always be a few who will wish the topic would change. :) -- Joseph M. Stookey Professor of Applied Ethology Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: Re: New question From: EJ Haskins Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:19:02 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hi CeAnn, Could you elucudate on what you are asking? Please. Jenny H OZ ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 10:54 PM Subject: New question Has anyone ever seen a flat affect in a mammal? CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Fw: Dog Smiles: was Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:21:03 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I hope you don't mind Catriona. I've forwarded this to the list. Jenny ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan, Catriona To: EJ Haskins Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 11:34 PM Subject: RE: Dog Smiles: was Interspecies communication Dear Jenny, Attached are a couple of photos of my dog smiling - they aren't brilliant because I was trialling a new camera and a fast-moving whippet tested it to its limits! I think they show the characteristics you mention though (for comparison, I've also included one of him in almost the same pose but not smiling, and the difference looks pretty clear to me). It's one of the reasons I love sighthounds - they clearly talke so much pleasure in their own athleticism :-) Best, Catriona Catriona Ryan University of Exeter School of Psychology Washington Singer laboratories, Exeter EX4 4QG UK Tel: +44 (0)1392 264620 Email: c.m.e.ryan@ex.ac.uk lurchers@blueyonder.co.uk THES UK University of the Year, 2007-8 A REAL dog smile is a thing of beauty and a joy forever, and also a real delight. I don't have any photos of my own dog on this computer to show you a real smile, unfortunately. But look out for them. They do exist when dogs are happy and relaxed. A good time to see it is taking your dog for a run along the beach (NOT on lead -- let the dog experience the joy of wind in his ears .-) Subject: trouble posting messages From: cissy stamm Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:54:51 -0800 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I'm getting the following error msg for e-mail to the while e-mails to individuals appear to be going through. Can anyone help? The following message to was undeliverable. The reason for the problem: 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.1.1 : Recipient address rejected: User unknown in relay recipient table' Reporting-MTA: dns; smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net Final-Recipient: rfc822;Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure) Remote-MTA: dns; [128.233.208.59] Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.1.1 : Recipient address rejected: User unknown in relay recipient table' (delivery attempts: 0) Thanks. Cissy Subject: Re: Dog Smiles From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:22:09 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Jay, I'll try to address your comments. I did in my initial post put "smiling" in quotes. We *assume* this is part of an appeasement greeting display because the "smile" is accompanied by other such signals: soft wagging tail, ears back, vcurled body, and often a snorting or "hissing" noise. I don't know if I can post it but I have a very good video of a dog "smiling" so you can see all the other signs as well as the dog's vocalization. As to the function, its an assumption. I have never seen a dog show what I call a true "smile" to another dog so I can't use dog-dog dyads to assess function. Given that dogs co-evolved with humans, I don't think its strange or unlikely that there might be some behaviors that dogs direct toward people that they don't toward other dogs. this behavior can certainly be shaped in increased by reinforcement, but in order for reinforcement to occur, the behavior has to be spontaneously expressed by the dog first. I own primarily Dobermans and "smiling" behavior is extremely common among this breed. The intensity (topography) of the behaivor varies a little from individual to individual, but it always occurs in the same basic contex (greeting and sometimes play). I do not consider this a pure submissive gesture as I have not seen this behavior in the context of discipline or punishment. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: LIHaug@aol.com Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:32:20 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca In a message dated 2/4/2009 5:30:28 PM Central Standard Time, ejhaskins@bigpond.com writes: was presented with the paper "The Visual Field of Dogs is Influenced by Skull Shape" by PD Mcgrevy, TC Grassi and AM Hartman.>> jenny, just because a dog's visual field is different based on the shape of its skull ( and I am familar with this) does not mean the dog WILL look at an owner's face. ALL dogs *can* look at their owner because all dogs can see in front of themselves. Whether the dog chooses to look at the owner is another thing entirely and has nothing to do with the breed. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Re: New question From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:34:49 -0800 (PST) To: Barbara CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Wow! I would really like to learn more. Where do I start. It sounds as if it would be like a baby who is left to cry in it's crib and it's needs aren't met to be kept dry, or fed or it's need for stimulation from the people who are supposed to care for it isn't given. Is that what you are talking about? CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue --- On Wed, 2/4/09, Barbara wrote: From: Barbara Subject: Re: New question To: "Cecilia Lambert" Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 8:09 PM Definately...occasionally understimulated (neglected) animals, animals struggling with health disorders, and animals who present with various degree of head trauma and fail to fully recover, and are fairly void of any semblance of normal expression. I have also seen it context specific in animals who are over-stimulated and over time, exhibit 'learned helplessness' and quit trying or even showing any feelings about the thing they find aversive. Barbara Ray -----Original Message----- >From: Cecilia Lambert >Sent: Feb 4, 2009 6:54 AM >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca >Subject: New question > >Has anyone ever seen a flat affect in a mammal? >CeAnn > > >CeAnn Lambert >Indiana Coyote Rescue Center >www.coyoterescue.org > >Please visit our gift shop @ >www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Book sources - Jay From: Zen Trainer Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:46:19 -0600 To: Ethics List http://www.bookcloseouts.com is an excellent source for books. Often for as low as $2 a piece. You never know what they might have. Still, though, there is no substitution for just sitting and watching dogs, imo. If you don't have ready access to multiple dogs you can sit at dog parks and take notes. I think it's more fun than the movies! Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org Subject: Affect From: cissy stamm Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:48:29 -0800 To: Applied-ethology@usask.ca > > > I'm thinking that means not projecting anything that would give an observer information about an internal state (thoughts/emotions/mood,etc). And I think I've seen it once. I had a Malinois service dog that I got a few months before 9/11. We live close to what was the WTC, and the wind carried particulate matter along with the smell into our neighborhood. We are also close to 2 hospitals that had hundreds of people waiting and looking for loved ones. Things were both highly emotionally charged coupled with the smell of burning bodies. Even I could smell the death in the air. > > Within 2 days, my dog's affect was gone. He was like a shell. Then he developed skin allergies 2 weeks later. Then escalating aggression toward moving objects. He was retired from service dog work at the first signs of aggression. He could not be rehabilitated and was diagnosed by a veterinary behaviorist with PTSD and medicated and put on a behavioral modification program. No progress. Although some of his affect returned,he was never normal. > > I eventually sent him back to his trainer - who had moved from the east coast to the west coast ) - to evaluate and see if he could be rehomed or should be euthanized. From the time he got off the plane, he was fine. Back to his old self. She kept him for 4 months then rehomed him to a trainer who had apprenticed with her and knew the dog. He has a happy life as an obedience dog. > > But I have to say I've never seen anything like that except in a dog that was in shock from injury or a heavily sedated dog. It was very disturbing. > > Cissy > On Feb 4, 2009, at 3:19 PM, EJ Haskins wrote: > >> Hi CeAnn, >> >> Could you elucudate on what you are asking? Please. >> >> Jenny H >> OZ >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Cecilia Lambert >> To: applied-ethology@usask.ca >> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 10:54 PM >> Subject: New question >> >> Has anyone ever seen a flat affect in a mammal? >> CeAnn >> >> CeAnn Lambert >> Indiana Coyote Rescue Center >> www.coyoterescue.org >> Please visit our gift shop @ >> www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue > Subject: Re: Canine Expressive Behaviors From: cissy stamm Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 22:01:33 -0800 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > I have. The photos are fabulous, the organization wonderful, the comments and comparisons very useful. It got rave reviews from very well-respected people. Although I know Barbara and photos of my service dog, Wargas, are in her book, the usual financial disclaimers apply. I've spent close to 15 years observing dogs. I am not a scientist or a professional trainer/behaviorist. I'm simply someone whose quality of life depends on a working dog. Barbara, who is a service dog user and dog trainer, has also put out some great videos on training one's own service dog and has some neat videos on youtube with her clicker training her new horse from a wheelchair. > > As a service dog user in a dense urban environment filled with ill-socialized dogs on flexis with clueless handlers, for me it's a survival guide. One of the things to remember for people who work with pet or service dogs is that with the dog on lead, we can't see our dogs' faces. With a large dog like mine, we can't always see the tail. The ability to "read" other dogs' body language and pick up the nuances of our own dogs' body language allows us to avoid many potential problems. It also provides us with crucial information about the environment, and that environment includes their handlers. > > Even if one has disagreement with the "read" of the body language, it's worth the price just for the photos. > > Cissy > > On Feb 3, 2009, at 1:42 PM, LIHaug@aol.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 2/3/2009 11:12:42 AM Central Standard Time, jfeierman@comcast.net writes: >> >> looking for on canine expressive behaviors. Has anyone read this book or does anyone have an opinion of it? At $13.57 new it is a book I can afford. >> >> Regards, >> Jay R. Feierman>> >> >> >> Jay, I think (not to be self serving) you would find more accurate information in Barbara Handelman's Canine Behavior: A Photo Illustrated Guide. >> >> Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC >> Texas Veterinary Behavior Services >> 2627 Cordes Dr. >> Sugar Land, TX 77479 >> 281-980-3737 >> 281-313-1849 (fax) >> www.texasvetbehavior.com >> APDT #692, IAABC >> >> Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. > Subject: My coyote project From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 06:44:17 -0800 (PST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I am getting things in place in IN to stop the killing of coyotes and foxes by dogs in running pens and in the wild. Coyote and foxes are even set upon by dogs while they are caught in leghold traps. Does anyone on this list want to be added to my Ban Live Bait Dog Training list? Does anyone want to be notified over the next year as to what is happening to our precious wildlife. I don't want to bother anyone who isn't interested. Whether, you are in IN or not, your input will be needed. We are not the only state that is trying to put a stop to this abusive activity. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: RE: Affect From: Zen Trainer Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 09:59:20 -0600 To: Ethics List I have seen what I think you are talking about in dogs that have been trained using harsh methods. I call it "shut down". I would imagine it's fairly common in captive animals. I am told that at a very young age while at a zoo I asked my parents where the animals had gone. They were right there but they were gone if you know what I mean. It's probably been observed and well documented in animals used in labs as well. I would check with some of Mark Beckoff's sources as well as Michael Fox and Jane Goodall. Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org Has anyone ever seen a flat affect in a mammal? CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:28:31 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Jenny H.: Where is the evidence (if any) that HUMANS respond to static facial expression? Jay R. Feierman: Well first, I said that in my own experience interacting with pet dogs, I never got the impression that they reacted to my facial affects. However, there is pleanty of evidence, based on a variety of different measures, that humans respond differently to static human facial expressions. There are many such postings on the human ethology group that are searchable on the home page. There are many studies using functional brain scaning that measures things like blood flow or glucose utilization in different parts of the human brain. The resolution can get down to as small as a few cubic millimeters of brain tissue. Humans respond differently to photographs of faces rightside up or upside down. They also respond differently (i.e., different parts of the brain "light up") to faces showing different affects - happy, sad, fear, disgust, suprise, anger, and neutral. And, most interestingly, children with Autistic Disorder or even Autism Spectrum Disorders respond differently to these photographs than neurotypical children. It would be possible to do similar types of testing with dogs to see if they can recognize human facial affects by trying to teach a dog to respond to a smiling face photograph of a human with a reward compared to a sad face photograph of a human. Has anyone ever done such studies? This is a rather standard experimental format to determine if a species can discriminate among stimuli. I'm curious what comments Glen Sizemore might have on the human ethology group, as he is our behaviorism expert. Can animals be trained to respond differently to different human facial affects on photographs? To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Dog Smiles From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:35:48 -0700 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Thank you Lore. That is very interesting. My desire to know more about the ethology of dog behavior is getting stronger by the day. Hopefully, over the next few months I will acquire more knowledge than I currently have. I'm looking forward to the two books on the subject arriving next week. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: LIHaug@aol.com To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 5:22 PM Subject: Re: Dog Smiles Jay, I'll try to address your comments. I did in my initial post put "smiling" in quotes. We *assume* this is part of an appeasement greeting display because the "smile" is accompanied by other such signals: soft wagging tail, ears back, vcurled body, and often a snorting or "hissing" noise. I don't know if I can post it but I have a very good video of a dog "smiling" so you can see all the other signs as well as the dog's vocalization. As to the function, its an assumption. I have never seen a dog show what I call a true "smile" to another dog so I can't use dog-dog dyads to assess function. Given that dogs co-evolved with humans, I don't think its strange or unlikely that there might be some behaviors that dogs direct toward people that they don't toward other dogs. this behavior can certainly be shaped in increased by reinforcement, but in order for reinforcement to occur, the behavior has to be spontaneously expressed by the dog first. I own primarily Dobermans and "smiling" behavior is extremely common among this breed. The intensity (topography) of the behaivor varies a little from individual to individual, but it always occurs in the same basic contex (greeting and sometimes play). I do not consider this a pure submissive gesture as I have not seen this behavior in the context of discipline or punishment. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. Subject: Self-directed aggression From: Kristina Gage Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:13:06 -0500 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca My advisor recently sent me the following video. I am curious how others interpret this behavior. This brings up the question of self-awareness in dogs, though I would certainly consider this abnormal behavior and not representative of the species as a whole. The video is off of youtube so I have no information about the dog other than what is seen on the footage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O15DXv3Vwg I'm very interested to hear your thoughts! Kristina N. Gage Subject: Re: Self-directed aggression From: kmorgan Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:39:25 -0500 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca This is pretty terrible to watch. It reminds me very much of an abnormal behavior in some captive primates called "floating limb." Same kind of thing. A limb will suddenly rise up seemingly of its own accord, and the animal will attack it as though it were not part of itself. We considered this to be among the more severe abnormal behaviors we encountered during my days at a major primate research center. Rather than laughing at the poor animal and putting it on you-tube, you'd think these folks would rush their dog to a vet with neurological expertise. --Kathy Morgan Wheaton College Norton, MA 02766 kmorgan@wheatonma.edu Kristina Gage wrote: > My advisor recently sent me the following video. I am curious how > others interpret this behavior. This brings up the question of > self-awareness in dogs, though I would certainly consider this > abnormal behavior and not representative of the species as a whole. > The video is off of youtube so I have no information about the dog > other than what is seen on the footage. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O15DXv3Vwg > > I'm very interested to hear your thoughts! > > Kristina N. Gage > Subject: Fw: wagging tails and piloerection From: "John R. Lane" Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 15:26:04 -0800 (PST) To: Applied Ethology List Hi Jay, I'll try to respond in detail to your comment about arousal not innervating the tail muscles later but for now If you can get access to a copy I'd like you to view a video from Peacable Paws http://www.peaceablepaws.com/ Entitled "Junis C.A.T. (Constructional Agression Treatment) procedure.. "CAT was devised and tested by Dr. Jesus Rosales-Ruiz, a behavior analyst and associate professor of behavior analysis at the University of North Texas, and Kellie Snider, a board-certified associate behavior analyst. Snider completed her MS in Behavior Analysis at UNT in 2007 with Dr. Rosales-Ruiz as her graduate research advisor and the CAT procedure as the topic of her thesis research. " This technique uses -R for agression treatment while attempting to keep the higly visible unwanted behaviour subthreshold. You need to see the full version not the edited one. This is an unedited videoing of training sessions over two days working with a 9yr old Pit bull mix. Because it is unedited it shows warts and all. It also doesn't attempt to make the procedure look easy. The camera is at all times on the first day focused on the subject dog. This allows us to see all the dogs' body language in detail and the text interspersed on it tells us when the bait dog approaches and when it is withdrawn so we can see what Junis' body language is in response to at all times. You don't need to watch the whole video if it doesn't interest you but I think you will gan a lot from many of the opening sequences. Regards John L. Make Yahoo!7 your homepage and win a trip to the Quiksilver Pro. Find out more. Subject: Re: Self-directed aggression From: EJ Haskins Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 11:08:08 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca From: "kmorgan" > This is pretty terrible to watch. It reminds me very much of an abnormal behavior in some captive primates called "floating limb." Same kind of thing. A limb will suddenly rise up seemingly of its own accord, and the animal will attack it as though it were not part of itself. We considered this to be among the more severe abnormal behaviors we encountered during my days at a major primate research center. > --Kathy Morgan I understand this this phenomenon is also seen in humans (primates, of course). I believe it is considred a type of catatonia? (Oliver Sacks??) Dr Strangelove (in Doctor Strangelove or How I Learend to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb) had this where his hand kept rising in the Nazi salute. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59YKlP--PhU&feature=related Cheers, Jenny H Coffs Australia Subject: Re: Self-directed aggression From: EJ Haskins Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 11:09:35 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Very sad. And not funny. I have discussed this before on other lists. The consensus is that teh dog has a serious neurological disorder and needs veterinary attention or possibly euthanasia before something worse happens. Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kristina Gage" To: Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 9:13 AM Subject: Self-directed aggression > My advisor recently sent me the following video. I am curious how > others interpret this behavior. This brings up the question of > self-awareness in dogs, though I would certainly consider this > abnormal behavior and not representative of the species as a whole. > The video is off of youtube so I have no information about the dog > other than what is seen on the footage. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O15DXv3Vwg > > I'm very interested to hear your thoughts! > > Kristina N. Gage > Subject: Re: Self-directed aggression From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:07:55 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Kristina, My first thought in seeing the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O15DXv3Vwg is that this might be some type of partial seizure, based on the movements in the hind left leg. It bothered me to hear people laughing in the background. If the movement in the left hind leg was not perceived as volitional by the dog, the dog may have attacked the moving left hind leg as being foreign to the dog. This may be especially true because the dog had a bone and may have been protecting it from an intruder, which is what the left hind leg may have seemed like. The dog could have a brain tumor or one of many types of idiopathic seizure disorders. This is just my guess, as I am not a veterinarian. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kristina Gage" To: Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Self-directed aggression > My advisor recently sent me the following video. I am curious how > others interpret this behavior. This brings up the question of > self-awareness in dogs, though I would certainly consider this > abnormal behavior and not representative of the species as a whole. > The video is off of youtube so I have no information about the dog > other than what is seen on the footage. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O15DXv3Vwg > > I'm very interested to hear your thoughts! > > Kristina N. Gage Subject: Re: wagging tails and piloerection From: "John R. Lane" Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 00:49:53 -0800 (PST) To: Applied Ethology List Hi Jay, I think we have our wires crossed. What I meant was that this DVD is available from them not that free access is on their website. Hopefully someone will have a copy somewhere in your vicinity that will be available for you to access. I am currently studying this DVD for use in a presentation I am doing for a group of trainers next weekend. I don't have time to edit bits and put them up here at this point but maybe we can arrange something privately after then if you haven't accessed a copy and are still interested. Regards John L. --- On Fri, 6/2/09, Jay R. Feierman wrote: From: Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: wagging tails and piloerection To: "John R. Lane" Received: Friday, 6 February, 2009, 1:57 PM ? Hello John, I don't see that video on the web page. Jay Make Yahoo!7 your homepage and win a trip to the Quiksilver Pro. Find out more. Make Yahoo!7 your homepage and win a trip to the Quiksilver Pro. Find out more. Subject: Re: Re: Interspecies communication From: gene daniels Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 06:19:10 -0800 (PST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca, "Jay R. Feierman" "Tribal people all over the world give them the same meaning" and why are birds 'peeping' asking for food, bronx cheering when food is delayed or forgotten - as when leaving Wal without it - ? But hand gestures ? not the same universality, to the 'chagrin' of many. --- On Tue, 2/3/09, Jay R. Feierman wrote: From: Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: Re: Interspecies communication To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 10:40 AM Christina, What you say is very interesting. Why don't you video tape your dogs as they are moving their tails various ways in various situations and then see if you can systematize your observations into some type of format that would be scientifically valid. For example, you could edit the video clips and then have blind raters try to determine the type of tail movements. It may be that a bird dog is just "happy" when it picks up the scent of a wounded duck and that is not much difference from the tail wagging when the owner comes home, etc. Part of the methodological issue is how does one determine proximate function of any behavior - by its result or outcome. With expressive behaviors when the recipient of the signal is a human and not a conspecific, the answer becomes more difficult. To do the study well, one should videotape dog-dog interactions and see the result of a certain tail movement on the recipient of the signal (i.e. the other dog). Based on my knowledge of the expressive behaviors of humans, I believe it is possible that there are different types of tail "wagging" that are communicating different things. For example, think of the seven different human facial affects that signal happy, sad, fear, disgust, surprise, anger, and neutral. Many of these movements use different combinations of the same muscle contractions. These and all expressive behaviors are coordinated motor patterns that are species-universal. The human facial affect expressive behaviors have meanings that are also species-universal, based on the work of Paul Ekman. Tribal people all over the world give them the same meaning. The same sort of thing could be done with the various movements of the dog's tail. Some are very obvious, such as the tail between the legs, the upright tail and the tail wag. But, are there subtle variations on the wag? Given how cheap video cameras are and given the ease of doing such studies, I am rather amazed that they have not been done. Lots of potential catchy titles for the book - Tell Tale Tails or Tail Tales or Tall Tails are possibilities. : = ) Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Christina Lager To: applied ethology Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:31 AM Subject: Fwd: Re: Interspecies communication May I just intersect a thing here? Based on my personal experience, not scientific studies, ;o) I don't like talking about what a wagging tail signals in the broad terms used below. A tail wag isn't just a tail wag. there is a lot of information carried in the way the tail is held, while it is wagging, how fast is the wag? what does the rest of the body look like? No, it's not an appeasement signal when my dog wags her tail at the scent of a wounded duck. Or at the scent of fox. I can basically see what kind of game she has found just by how her body and tail is moving... All good doghandlers that I know can do that, so it's not like I'm trying to say that I am particularly good at reading my dog or anything like that ;o) On the other hand when she meets another dog, it's a whole different way of wagging. and that wag differs according to whether that dog is known or stranger, male or female, adult, puppy or adolescent. And whether she is in her own home or in the strangers or in a neutral area. Then there is all teh wags to humans - greetings according again to circumstances like when meeting another dog, there is the "oh boy, the green trousers"-wag, the "oh boy she brought out the clicker"-wag, the "oh boy feeding time"-wag, the "someone is shouting ad sounding angry"-wag, the "I want to lie on the couch and sleep with you"-wag etc etc. This is my longwinded way of saying "a wag isn't just a wag" you have to look how it is wagging and at the entire dog, and the situation it is in. best regards Christina Lager DVM (and owner of a bunch of chesapeakes (or is it the other way around?)) Denmark PS: apologies to Tricia for sending this only to her first, I hit the wrong button. ----- Original meddelelse ----- <<< Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:25:19 -0600 To: applied-ethology network HI Everyone, The video of self directed aggression on YouTube, sent to us by Kristina Gage, is indeed troubling from the standpoint of the laughter coming from the people video taping the behaviour and their lack of appreciation that what they are seeing is not normal and something may be wrong. I've seen other video clips, sent to me by my students, of animals performing strange stereotypies or abnormal behaviours and all of the clips were recorded and sent to TV shows or posted on the Internet with the intent of being funny. I have seriously considered giving my students an assignment of finding such videos and having them write a brief, but educational comment, about the video, with the idea that we would post the "educational comments" below the video clip so that other viewers could be educated about what they were watching. When I bounced this idea off my son, he said, "First off you would be trying to educate some of the dumbest people on the planet, which is difficult to do and second you would only succeed in having some other joker write a follow up comment with disparaging and rude remarks, with the sole purpose of humiliating the students for being "know-it-alls", etc." To some extent I think my son is correct and the exercise I proposed would fall short of its goal of educating people who laugh at animals which engage in abnormal behaviours or behaviours they do not understand. However, I am toying with the idea of having my students create new/independent or stand alone "educational clips" that we could post on YouTube or similar Internet servers as a way to help educate the layman or interested people in the kinds of behaviour we can see, including normal and abnormal behaviours. For the abnormal behaviours the clips would include narratives on possible causes, preventions, solutions that may exist to treat them and/or advice to seek professional or veterinary assistance. I haven't launched this assignment on my students yet, but my hunch is that it may be a worthwhile exercise. I want to believe that if we (I use the term "we" to include all of you on this server) were to also use the Internet and YouTube to post educational video material then perhaps we may help educate the layman on behavioural topics and in the process help more animals that may need intervention. I would be grateful to receive some feedback on whether you think such an assignment would be of value for my students and the general public. And if we do this, should the video clips be posted on YouTube or just posted on our own web page? Thanks. Cheers, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: Re: [human-ethology] Fw: Dog Smiles From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 08:50:04 -0700 To: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com CC: Lore Haug , applied-ethology@usask.ca Hello Sonny, A (proximate) function of either a morphological structure or a structurally defined behavioral trait (coordinated motor pattern or reflex) can be defined as "the result or outcome of one structure interacting with another structure in space and over time where at least one of the two structures has to be a part of the behaving organism." In the case of the so called "smile" in a dog, one set of structures is on the dog's face. The other structure would be the visual system of the recipient of the signal, be it a human or another dog. To determine the function of the "smile," one would need to see the result or outcome of the dog's smile on the recipient of this signal, who is the receiver of the signal, be it another dog or a human. So, depending on the behavior (~ movement) of the recipient of the smile signal, one could determine the result or outcome of the dog's "smile," which would be its (proximate) function. In the case of the human smile, this is how we know its function as a signal of appeasement, friendliness, and willingness to interact. It causes the receiver of the visual signal of the smile to behave in a friendly manner towards the person who is smiling at them. It would be unusual that one gene is going to effect only one coordinated motor pattern, which is the characterization of the dog's smile. Genes more often effect the threshold at which coordinated motor patterns are expressed, which is why different breeds of dogs have different thresholds for release of different coordinated motor patterns. However, lets say that one did find a particular gene which when "knocked out," caused certain dogs who smile to stop smiling. How would this tell you the function of "smiling in dogs"? It wouldn't. One aspect of "smiling" in dogs that I find interesting is that it does not appear to be a species-universal behavior. When I said that I had never seen a dog "smile," that is correct. And, I've been around a fair number of dogs in my life. Also, if "smiling" is extremely common in Doberman's, what does that mean, other than the genes that lower the threshold for this behavior were selected for incidentally as Dobermans were bred for other characteristics. What were those other characteristics? Doubtful that Dobermans were bred for "smiling." Given all of the above, I am not convinced of the function of "smiling" in dogs. I have no problem with calling the behavior "smiling" as long as the quotes are used. It seems to be a friendly rather than a hostile signal. What would answer the question best would be to observe the effect of "smiling" on the behavior of another dog to which it is directed. If "smiling" is not directed to other dogs but only to humans and then only to some humans, this is very interesting. I'm surprised that someone has not studied "smiling" in dogs more extensively. It would be a good Ph.D. thesis in applied ethology. Regards, Jay R. Feierman ----- Original Message ----- From: Sonny Williams To: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:40 AM Subject: Re: [human-ethology] Fw: Dog Smiles Isn't a behavioral trait's function always going to be an assumption, as Dr. Haug noted, unless and until the gene or genes are found whose absence results in the trait's not being expressed? Sonny Williams www.clarencewilliams.net sonnyw@msn.com "Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition" - Adam Smith "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman To: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:32 AM Subject: [human-ethology] Fw: Dog Smiles I am forwarding this comment by a veterinary applied ethologist to the human ethology group regarding "smiling" in dogs. The issue is of interest in human ethology because it addresses inter-specific communication with humans and raises the issue of whether a "smile" in a dog is homologous in form to a human smile and if it has the same function and how does one determine the function of such a behavior in any species. Regards, Jay R. Feierman ----- Original Message ----- From: LIHaug@aol.com To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 5:22 PM Subject: Re: Dog Smiles Jay, I'll try to address your comments. I did in my initial post put "smiling" in quotes. We *assume* this is part of an appeasement greeting display because the "smile" is accompanied by other such signals: soft wagging tail, ears back, vcurled body, and often a snorting or "hissing" noise. I don't know if I can post it but I have a very good video of a dog "smiling" so you can see all the other signs as well as the dog's vocalization. As to the function, its an assumption. I have never seen a dog show what I call a true "smile" to another dog so I can't use dog-dog dyads to assess function. Given that dogs co-evolved with humans, I don't think its strange or unlikely that there might be some behaviors that dogs direct toward people that they don't toward other dogs. This behavior can certainly be shaped in increased by reinforcement, but in order for reinforcement to occur, the behavior has to be spontaneously expressed by the dog first. I own primarily Dobermans and "smiling" behavior is extremely common among this breed. The intensity (topography) of the behaivor varies a little from individual to individual, but it always occurs in the same basic contex (greeting and sometimes play). I do not consider this a pure submissive gesture as I have not seen this behavior in the context of discipline or punishment. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (2) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Members MARKETPLACE From kitchen basics to easy recipes - join the Group from Kraft Foods Yahoo! Groups Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity * 4 New Members Visit Your Group Sitebuilder Build a web site quickly & easily with Sitebuilder. Need traffic? Drive customers With search ads on Yahoo! Find helpful tips for Moderators on the Yahoo! Groups team blog. . __,_._,___ Subject: Black in Wolves and Coyotes in New World Came from Dogs From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:10:28 -0700 To: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/science/06wolves.html?_r=1 New World Wolves and Coyotes Owe Debt to Dogs Daniel Stahler/Associated Press Researchers have determined that black-coated wolves, like these in Yellowstone National Park, got their distinctive color from dogs. By MARK DERR Published: February 5, 2009 In a bit of genetic sleuthing, a team of researchers has determined that black wolves and coyotes in North America got their distinctive color from dogs that carried a gene mutation to the New World. Skip to next paragraph Related Web Link Molecular and Evolutionary History of Melanism in North American Gray Wolves (Science) RSS Feed * Get Science News From The New York Times » The finding presents a rare instance in which a genetic mutation from a domesticated animal has benefited wild animals by enriching their “genetic legacy,” the scientists write in Thursday’s Science Express, the online edition of the journal Science. Because black wolves are more common in forested areas than on the tundra, the researchers concluded that melanism — the pigmentation that resulted from the mutation — must give those animals an adaptive advantage. Although common in many species, melanism in dogs follows a unique genetic pathway, said Dr. Gregory S. Barsh, a professor of genetics and pediatrics at the Stanford University School of Medicine and the senior author of the paper. Last year, Dr. Barsh and his laboratory identified a gene mutation responsible for the protein beta-defensin 3, which regulates melanism in dogs. After finding that the same mutation was responsible for black wolves and black coyotes in North America, and for black wolves from the Italian Apennines where wolves have recently hybridized with free-ranging dogs, the researchers set out to discover where and when the mutation evolved. Comparing large sections of wolf, dog and coyote genomes, Dr. Barsh and his colleagues concluded that the mutation arose in dogs 12,779 to 121,182 years ago, with a preferred date of 46,886 years ago. Because the first domesticated dogs are estimated to date back just 15,000 to 40,000 years ago in East Asia, the researchers said that they could not determine with certainty whether the mutation arose first in wolves that predate that time, or in dogs at an early date in their domestication. Robert K. Wayne, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California, Los Angeles, who studies canine evolution and is a co-author on the Science paper, said in an interview that he believed the mutation occurred first in dogs. But even if it arose first in wolves, he said, it was passed on to dogs who brought it to the New World and then passed it to wolves and coyotes soon after their arrival. Dr. Wayne and his colleagues have dated the presence of dogs in Alaska to about 14,000 years ago and are now checking ancient dog remains from across the Americas for the mutation. The researchers concluded that the mutation is subject to positive selection, meaning that it serves some adaptive purpose. Cross-breeding produces offspring with one set of genes from each parent, in this case a dog and a wolf. If all subsequent breeding takes place among wolves, the dog genes eventually vanish, unless one or more of them helps the organism survive. Scientists have not yet identified the mutation’s purpose, but they suggested that its association with forested habitats meant the prevalence of melanism should increase as forests expand northward. In an interview, Dr. Barsh observed that beta-defensin is involved in providing immunity to viral and bacterial skin infections, which might be more common in forested, warmer environments. Marc Bekoff, a behavioral ethologist from the University of Colorado, who was not involved in the project, said more work was needed to show what adaptive advantage black coats might provide. But, Dr. Bekoff added, “This is an important paper that among other things should make us revisit and likely revise what we mean by a ‘pure’ species.” Next Article in Science (2 of 20) » A version of this article appeared in print on February 6, 2009, on page A13 of the New York edition. Subject: Re: Black in Wolves and Coyotes in New World Came from Dogs From: Simon Gadbois Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:18:30 -0400 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , human-ethology@yahoogroups.com, ethology network Quote from the article: > > Marc Bekoff, a behavioral ethologist from the University of Colorado, who was not involved in the project, said more work was needed to show what adaptive advantage black coats might provide. But, Dr. Bekoff added, “This is an important paper that among other things should make us revisit and likely revise what we mean by a ‘pure’ species.” Simon Gadbois: That is an interesting comment. That would be Ray Coppinger's thesis, career and main focus of the past 20 years... Related to this would be our "Eastern Canid" (our "coyotes" here in New England and the Canadian Maritime provinces) and the Ontario "wolves". Hybridization of Canis (dogs, wolves, coyotes and jackals) is nothing new and is considered by some a major conservation issue. Subject: "Fear Gimace" in a chimp From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:20:31 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com How is this behavior (not its function) different from the so called "smile" in a dog? Go to http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2953602647_f6526eff2b.jpg?v=0 Subject: Ritualized Aggression in Two Wolves (Dominance-Submissive Behavior) From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:26:51 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Go to http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=fear+grimace&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#q=wolf+behavior&hl=en&emb=0 Subject: Semi-Naturalistic Wolf Behavior From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:32:59 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Go to http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=fear+grimace&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#q=wolf+behavior&hl=en&emb=0 Subject: Re: [human-ethology] Fw: Dog Smiles From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 10:38:46 -0700 To: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Simon Gadbois: . . .the first step is actually to see if dogs can perceive and interpret human smiles. Jay R. Feierman: If one were trying to discover the function of "smiles" in dogs, one could easily figure this by seeing if one could selectively reward a dog when he or she responded to a human smile either on a human or on a picture of a human with a food reward. However, even a "good boy" said in a happy tone is a social reward for the dog. Even if one could train dogs to respond to a human smile versus a human frown with food rewards, that does not say that the dog responds to human smiles with appropriate non-food social behavior in a more natural context. A so called "smile" in dogs may have nothing to do with human smiles in terms of function. It may only have a structural resemblance. The rest may just be anthropomorphic wishful thinking. I don't hear anyone proposing that a dog smiles when a human smiles at the dog, like a human will smile back at you when you smile at a human. That is one of the reasons I am dubious that the "smile" has the same function in a dog that it does in a human. It is not evoked by a human smile. But again, I'd really like to see the effect of a smile on another dog to understand its function in the dog-dog world. Subject: Re: Animal Behaviour on YouTube From: Sabine Goubau Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 10:45:47 -0700 To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca CC: applied-ethology network Hello Joe, I asked my 22 yr old son what his thoughts were, as he is a heavy web user. Here is his take on it:. Joe's son is, unfortunately, right - attempts to educate by posting "comments" on videos typically fall on deaf ears, and when they do not, they fall on provocative ones who will, as stated, attempt to dismiss the comments posted in a completely unintelligible way. While you might assume that, given the amount of people who surf the internet, even if 99% ignore it, the 1% might be worth reaching out to - rising to the bait/debate from these ubiquitous "internet jokers" [known as "trolls"] can often do more harm than good. It's not a case of wanting to educate the dumbest people in the world, though - but wanting to educate people who are seeking only entertainment, and if you can't have it at the expense of some animal, they'll have it at the expense of someone posting "smart-ass" comments. The idea of commenting does have merit as an exercise for the students - making them think twice about said funny videos, but to expect to educate the viewers of the video in general is unrealistic. As for making your own videos; think of it this way - What do you and I use youtube for? To find comedian's skits, funny or in some cases cute videos, and the occasional music we don't have. Anything else needs to be of truly exceptional quality to get any sort of viewership. The last "Educational" clip I can recall watching was one of the computer-generated ambitious models of the inner life of a cell. -- Alexander Hynes joseph stookey wrote: > HI Everyone, > > The video of self directed aggression on YouTube, sent to us by Kristina Gage, is indeed troubling from the standpoint of the laughter coming from the people video taping the behaviour and their lack of appreciation that what they are seeing is not normal and something may be wrong. I've seen other video clips, sent to me by my students, of animals performing strange stereotypies or abnormal behaviours and all of the clips were recorded and sent to TV shows or posted on the Internet with the intent of being funny. I have seriously considered giving my students an assignment of finding such videos and having them write a brief, but educational comment, about the video, with the idea that we would post the "educational comments" below the video clip so that other viewers could be educated about what they were watching. When I bounced this idea off my son, he said, "First off you would be trying to educate some of the dumbest people on the planet, which is difficult to do and second you would only succeed in having some other joker write a follow up comment with disparaging and rude remarks, with the sole purpose of humiliating the students for being "know-it-alls", etc." To some extent I think my son is correct and the exercise I proposed would fall short of its goal of educating people who laugh at animals which engage in abnormal behaviours or behaviours they do not understand. However, I am toying with the idea of having my students create new/independent or stand alone "educational clips" that we could post on YouTube or similar Internet servers as a way to help educate the layman or interested people in the kinds of behaviour we can see, including normal and abnormal behaviours. For the abnormal behaviours the clips would include narratives on possible causes, preventions, solutions that may exist to treat them and/or advice to seek professional or veterinary assistance. > > I haven't launched this assignment on my students yet, but my hunch is that it may be a worthwhile exercise. I want to believe that if we (I use the term "we" to include all of you on this server) were to also use the Internet and YouTube to post educational video material then perhaps we may help educate the layman on behavioural topics and in the process help more animals that may need intervention. I would be grateful to receive some feedback on whether you think such an assignment would be of value for my students and the general public. And if we do this, should the video clips be posted on YouTube or just posted on our own web page? > Thanks. > > Cheers, > > Joe > Subject: Re: Animal Behaviour on YouTube From: joseph stookey Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:06:18 -0600 To: Sabine Goubau CC: applied-ethology network Alexander Hynes wrote: "As for making your own videos; think of it this way - What do you and I use youtube for? To find comedian's skits, funny or in some cases cute videos, and the occasional music we don't have. Anything else needs to be of truly exceptional quality to get any sort of viewership. The last "Educational" clip I can recall watching was one of the computer-generated ambitious models of the inner life of a cell." Hi Alexander, I think you are correct in that people searching for educational material on the web would not normally go to YouTube as their first place to "shop". So from that perspective it would be better if we simply posted video material on our web page, however, wouldn't the students' educational videos which we could post on YouTube also be linked as "related video" to some of the intended funny videos, if we used similar words in the title? What I am thinking is that even if people watched a "funny" video of a dog, say non-stop chasing its tail, and if we had a video on a similar topic then wouldn't our video also pop up as a related video? If "yes" then would not some people likely watch our video and gain some education even if it was their intention to find another funny video? I don't really know enough about how YouTube works, but I am thinking we could educate some viewers that way and it would be better than trying to add a comment about some other video. I am guessing that if we post all our videos from the same account, then once a person found one of our videos, they could find all of them if they were interested. Are these valid assumptions? Cheers, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Professor of Applied Ethology Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: Broadcasting animal behavior From: Sabine Goubau Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:43:31 -0700 To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca CC: applied-ethology network Hello Joe, I forwarded your question to Alexander since he is not on this list. Thinking further about your suggestion: I am closer to home than you could imagine (MSc UofS, PhD UofS and currently in Calgary). My career is evolving into journalism, but I have barely started my training, thus view my thoughts with caution. Key points are 1) identify your target audience -and target it- and 2) make it highly relevant for the viewer. Thus the related link video you suggest would have to achieve those two things right from the start. I am assuming you want to target people interested in dogs, and you will have to be very careful not to draw the attention of the trolls Alexander was mentioning (i.e. not sound educational, patronizing, critical of the popular video). Maybe the title could invite viewers to relate that behavior to their dog, or to evaluate how their dog is doing maybe by showing early warning signs of deviant behaviors or maybe better by showing cute views of contented dogs and subtle changes , but still cute, indicating discontent. All that video would do would be to link the viewer to your website, nothing more for fear of attracting the trolls. And as Alexander suggested, the images would have to be stunning, promising further beautiful and interesting images on your website. Look at it as courting! Next, your website would have to be uncluttered, pleasant, easy to navigate etc... many young people can do that. I will continue to think about this as I go through my training. Maybe I will ask you for an interview one day. Sabine joseph stookey wrote: > Alexander Hynes wrote: > "As for making your own videos; think of it this way - What do you and I use youtube for? To find comedian's skits, funny or in some cases cute videos, and the occasional music we don't have. Anything else needs to be of truly exceptional quality to get any sort of viewership. The last "Educational" clip I can recall watching was one of the computer-generated ambitious models of the inner life of a cell." > > Hi Alexander, > > I think you are correct in that people searching for educational material on the web would not normally go to YouTube as their first place to "shop". So from that perspective it would be better if we simply posted video material on our web page, however, wouldn't the students' educational videos which we could post on YouTube also be linked as "related video" to some of the intended funny videos, if we used similar words in the title? What I am thinking is that even if people watched a "funny" video of a dog, say non-stop chasing its tail, and if we had a video on a similar topic then wouldn't our video also pop up as a related video? If "yes" then would not some people likely watch our video and gain some education even if it was their intention to find another funny video? I don't really know enough about how YouTube works, but I am thinking we could educate some viewers that way and it would be better than trying to add a comment about some other video. I am guessing that if we post all our videos from the same account, then once a person found one of our videos, they could find all of them if they were interested. Are these valid assumptions? > > Cheers, > > Joe > Subject: Animal Behavior on You Tube From: Zen Trainer Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 18:49:18 -0600 To: Ethics List I think both ideas are good. I watch all kinds of stuff on You Tube. (Look For "Deaf Chinese Dancers", it's incredible) I like the idea of posting a comment explaining why the behavior is troublesome and not funny. You can do it without being condescending. I usually do it with humour. You can also do it with a bunch of initials after your name which tends to shut people up. Or you can use a sig line that says it all, like: "Heaven goes by favour. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." Mark Twain Or whatever fits you and the message you are posting. You may get blasted but it's just a bunch of idiots on the internet. You may also plant a seed in one person's mind. Make one person see their dogs behavior as abnormal. Make a few people stop and question the meaning of compassion. You could also be overwhelmed by support. You never know. I always have the sound off on my computer so I wouldn't notice laughter. Producing video's is a great idea also, imo. I am continually amazed by how many people (people who have had dogs all their life) don't understand basic dog behavior. From a students standpoint it would be nice for those who might not excell at writing but could produce a fantastic video clip. Seems win-win all around to me. Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" "If we knew what we were doing it wouldn't be called research". AE www.radiofreenashville.org Subject: Animal behavior on You Tube From: Zen Trainer Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 18:56:13 -0600 To: Ethics List Well, we're talking about You Tube, so I think You Tube would be your target audience. Good music helps. On my radio show when I do a piece on how to walk a dog I play things like "I Don't Want To Walk Around With You" by The Ramones, "Walk This Way" by Arrowsmith, "We Gonna Walk and Don't look Back" by Peter Tosh and Mick Jagger, etc. Your students will know this. Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org Subject: Re: New question From: EJ Haskins Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:13:17 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I understand that in humans with Clinical depression the facial expressions become "damped." I have read that counsellors can pick people who are about to commit suicide. Often their "other" behaviour becomes more normal, but their facial expressions become 'flat'. I presume that whatever imbalance that causes clinical depression in humans can also occur in other mammals. It should be far more noticeable in social species. Sincerely, Jenny H I know we are not supposed to extrapolate from humans to non-human animals because that is called "anthropomorphism" -- but we have no trouble extrapolating from non-human animals to humans. (Pavlov and Skinner being notable examples :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert Wow! I would really like to learn more. Where do I start. It sounds as if it would be like a baby who is left to cry in it's crib and it's needs aren't met to be kept dry, or fed or it's need for stimulation from the people who are supposed to care for it isn't given. Is that what you are talking about? CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center Subject: Fw: Canine Expressive Behaviors From: EJ Haskins Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:17:37 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: cissy stamm To: EJ Haskins Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:12 AM Subject: Re: Canine Expressive Behaviors I watch dogs all the time. I wish I was a decent photographer. I wish I could even figure out how to use one of the photo computer applications to sort through what I do have. But if I had any ability whatsoever, I'd be doing exactly what you're inspired to do. I had tried and failed to post about the face marking thing. Having had a Malinois with a totally black face, black chest and black eyes, I saw it in action. I've found that brachiocephalic dogs - especially those with black faces - also can be hard for other dogs to read. A lot of small dogs are now being walked on body harnesses which makes it even more difficult for other dogs to read body language. (I don't think this is true of the ones with front attachments like the "easy walk"). People tend to put upward pressure on the harness practically lifting their dog off the ground when they pass another dog. I would say that in NYC, loose lead walking is something one sees in maybe 1 our of 15 dogs, and it's not uncommon to see dogs with head collars on flexis. My ASD service dog, Wargas, is in a number of her photos. You can see him on pg 59 smiling happily in his "frog" pose after a good romp with Barb's service dog, Pan. Hope you have a good time with the book. I use it all the time. I think Barb has a blog discussing the book. I don't follow it so I don't know how good it is. Have you ever encountered any of the Maremma owners who use their dogs to guard flocks? And I think the gov't is also using them to guard a rare penguin population. There are a number of aussies on the flock guardian dog list I've been on for many years. Cissy On Feb 4, 2009, at 10:41 PM, EJ Haskins wrote: > I've just got my copy :-) > > Looks like a good book to amble through -- but my strongest feeling was "I must get out my camera and take many many more candid photos of my dogs!" And dogs in my classes :-) Instead of the posed ones that I seem to restrict myself to. > > Then I could compare what I felt/saw in their behaviours with what Barbara H describes. > > She does quite a good job of describing different types of dog's expressions -- and how they LOOK different. > It is DEFINITELY a vast improvement on the generic wolf/German Shepherd/Malamute face that you usually see. > She even has expressive bull-dogs :-) > > She also mentions something which has not yet been mentioned here -- and that is that the markings on the dog's face make their expressions more visible and more easily interpreted. Something which is known to handicap solid coloured dogs in real life. (Refs somewhere. Also an excellent video that I saw at someone's seminar. Would it have been Suzanne Hetts??) > > Cheers, > > Jenny H > Coffs Australia > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: cissy stamm > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 5:01 PM > Subject: Re: Canine Expressive Behaviors > >> >> I have. The photos are fabulous, the organization wonderful, the comments and comparisons very useful. It got rave reviews from very well-respected people. >> >> Cissy >> >> On Feb 3, 2009, at 1:42 PM, LIHaug@aol.com wrote: >>> Jay, I think (not to be self serving) you would find more accurate information in Barbara Handelman's Canine Behavior: A Photo Illustrated Guide. >>> Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:48:02 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca It would be. Because what is being tested in humans is their ability to recognise a photograph as a representation of the thing/person that was photographed. (On the other hand the men's pulse rates might go up, and they might have measurable changes in brain activity, but I don't think the men would ask the photo out, or even worry that the photo is going to see them at less than their best. They might though (who knows) react quite differently to a model standing as still as possible -- let's say she's an artists model. But you response bring this whole discussion back full circle. DO DOGS recognise photos/models/inanimate objects as representative of what we humans have made it to represent? Do dogs respond to animate smiles on their owners' faces? I can't answer for all dogs, but my dogs certainly do, and in general I would say the dog in my classes do too. Obviously these "expressions" are animate -- a frown or pout or a smile is a moving expression. (Ever noticed how YOU react to a "fixed" smile on a living person??) But most dogs that I know of (all dogs that I personally know of) fail to recognise a photo of a person as representing a person at all. I know OF a dog who was "taught" to distinguish between photos of dogs and photos of landscapes. I don't know, but I believe that because of dogs' vision, they recognise moving objects MUCH better than non-moving objects, and the type of movement is also a factor in their recognition. For example a plastic shopping bag is the object of choice for "lure coursing" with Jack Russells. Greyhounds race to catch two boards flapping together (the "hare"). I don't know of any statistical survey/research at all on how many dogs recognise pictures OR statues as the same as the living animals. I DO remember reading of research that was done with Police Dogs. They had the handlers all sit on the floor naked, then let in the dogs. The dogs apparently could not recognise their handlers. (That must have been I think in the 60s -- it was quoted in a German Shepherd how-to book to explain why we needed to allow our dogs into the house and get to know the whole family in different places with different clothes on or off .) I have known dogs who don't recognise their owners if they are wearing, eg, a hat. As I've said before, this would be VERY interesting. We might find breed differences, We might find dogs are better or worse at it that we suspect. Cheers, Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman . . . . Humans respond differently to photographs of faces rightside up or upside down. They also respond differently (i.e., different parts of the brain "light up") to faces showing different affects - happy, sad, fear, disgust, suprise, anger, and neutral. And, most interestingly, children with Autistic Disorder or even Autism Spectrum Disorders respond differently to these photographs than neurotypical children. It would be possible to do similar types of testing with dogs to see if they can recognize human facial affects by trying to teach a dog to respond to a smiling face photograph of a human with a reward compared to a sad face photograph of a human. Has anyone ever done such studies? This is a rather standard experimental format to determine if a species can discriminate among stimuli. Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: EJ Haskins Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:49:48 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca From: "The Visual Field of Dogs is Influenced by Skull Shape" by PD McGreevy, TC Grassi and AM Hartman. "Discussion . . . It is interesting to speculate why we have bred dogs with a short face and more frontally placed eyes? It is possible that having a short nose gives them a more human-like appearance but perhaps it also results in behaviour changes. For example it may be these breeds are less likely to act like running predators. Meanwhile their retinal ganglion cell distribution may facilitate their ability to focus on human faces and thus engage with their owners. It would be interesting to screen dogs of different skull shapes in terms of their behavioural responses to various visual stimuli. These findings suggest that we cannot expect dogs of disparate skull shapes to see the world in the same way as one another. Practitioners should be mindful of this phenomenon when using visual cues in training and behaviour modification." Note, this is the published paper that was provided at the conference. McGreevy's presentation went into more detail re brachycephalic breeds looking at TV, etc. Now I cannot find a reference re this phenomenon, but on dog trainer/owner lists that I am on, it is generally a question of "WHY do brachycephalic dogs tend to look so readily and closely into their owner's eye, while the longer muzzled dogs frequently are so unwilling to do this?" Your are right -- it might not be the skull shape and eye anatomy causing the phenomenon. It might be simply that the neurochemical balance that causes brachycephaly is also associated with less inherent understanding of dog social signals ("Looking directly into the eyes is rude!"). Certainly Border Collies especially and other herding dogs can also be instinctively very rude in canine terms, using the eye-stalk on other dogs. But the Brachycephalic "look" is different entirely to this. There are certain syndromes in humans that affect the person's social signalling. I KNOW that people with Asperger's are very, very reluctant to look someone in the eye. And it has been well documented. I believe (but don't know where I heard it, or got the idea) that people with Down's Syndrome are more inclined to look others in the face. So it makes perfect sense to me that there is very likely a genetically caused difference between different breeds (and individuals within breeds) that affects how willing/often they are to meet another individual by looking him/her in the face, Sincerely Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: LIHaug@aol.com To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: Interspecies communication In a message dated 2/4/2009 5:30:28 PM Central Standard Time, ejhaskins@bigpond.com writes: was presented with the paper "The Visual Field of Dogs is Influenced by Skull Shape" by PD Mcgrevy, TC Grassi and AM Hartman.>> jenny, just because a dog's visual field is different based on the shape of its skull ( and I am familar with this) does not mean the dog WILL look at an owner's face. ALL dogs *can* look at their owner because all dogs can see in front of themselves. Whether the dog chooses to look at the owner is another thing entirely and has nothing to do with the breed. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Subject: Re: Animal Behaviour on YouTube From: EJ Haskins Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 20:28:10 +1100 To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca CC: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "joseph stookey" > I have seriously considered giving my students an assignment of finding such videos and having them write a brief, but educational comment, about the video, with the idea that we would post the "educational comments" below the video clip so that other viewers could be educated about what they were watching. When I bounced this idea off my son, he said, "First off you would be trying to educate some of the dumbest people on the planet, which is difficult to do and second you would only succeed in having some other joker write a follow up comment with disparaging and rude remarks, with the sole purpose of humiliating the students for being "know-it-alls", etc." . . . > I haven't launched this assignment on my students yet, but my hunch is that it may be a worthwhile exercise. . . I would be grateful to receive some feedback on whether you think such an assignment would be of value for my students and the general public. And if we do this, should the video clips be posted on YouTube or just posted on our own web page? \> Joe Hi Joe, I think it would be a very worthwhile assignment for your students. But I tend to agree with your son about the "dumbest people on the planet". I mean (without casting any personal nasturtiums) even on academic lists and professional lists you can get people who are lore interested in scoring a point at your expense rather than respond to the gist of your post. I teach, as a voluntary presenter, the SPOT program in infant schools (4 to 7 year olds) here. (Safe Pets Out There). We are supposed to stick to out 'set' routine because the course is till being evaluated (for Government sponsorship). But I always introduce a discussion about Funniest Home Videos. I THINK it goes down well. The kids start by agreeing that it is "funny". Then, having already talked to then about canine body language, I ask then to consider what the dog in question was "saying". (eg "Put me down, I don't like you hold me like that!") It seems in some ways a better approach than our fluffy, half-life-sized Dally we use. I always suggest that next time they watch dogs on Funniest Home Video they try to work out what the dog is saying. In this way, I HOPE that the kids can help educate their parents -- we've had some feedback that this is actually happening. But I would not expect this approach to work on YouTube. They are yobboes out there :-( (and to keep an academic slant on the discussion there is lots of stuff about how reluctant people are to "go against the trend". So kids, and older , are afraid to say, "Oh I think that's awful," because their peers are laughing their heads off :-( I personally feel that an approach to infants (and probably primary) teachers would be a more fruitful enterprise. All the best, Jenny H Coffs Australia Subject: Re: [human-ethology] Fw: Dog Smiles From: EJ Haskins Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 20:54:41 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hi Jay, You don't think that you sure being too simplistic as regards the human smile? Humans being one of, if not the most, deceptive species of all. Babies soon learn that a smile gets them what they want!! The con artist smiles at his victim, as does the sadist. My Dad certainly smiled when he was about to be sarcastic and hurtful. I've known teachers smile as they caned kids. Coming from an Asperger's family I was terribly surprised when I discovered just how insincere most "friendly" social gestures are. I suppose because my Dad being Asperger's was NOT a good actor (although he made his living in his retirement as an actor) and so his smiles and laugh were always so blatantly false. Most humans have the (unfortunate) knack of sounding genuinely friendly as they sharpen the dagger to stab you in the back with Personally I would trust a dog's smile (either the big cheesy grin OR the "submissive grin" any day over a human smile. Dogs' body language is SO easy to interpret compared to human. Jenny H (Who was going to join the Paranoia Society but everybody refused to tell me where the meetings were held :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman In the case of the human smile, this is how we know its function as a signal of appeasement, friendliness, and willingness to interact. It causes the receiver of the visual signal of the smile to behave in a friendly manner towards the person who is smiling at them. __,_._,___ Subject: Re: "Fear Gimace" in a chimp From: EJ Haskins Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 20:58:37 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Look at the eyes. And also the stasnce of the body. No facial expression occurs in isolation of other body (and sound and chemical) cues. Jenny H ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Cc: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:20 AM Subject: "Fear Gimace" in a chimp How is this behavior (not its function) different from the so called "smile" in a dog? Go to http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2953602647_f6526eff2b.jpg?v=0 Subject: Re: [human-ethology] Fw: Dog Smiles From: EJ Haskins Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:04:50 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Oh, Sorry Jay. When I smile at my dogs they smile back :-) Cheers, Jenny H Who is blessed with smiley dogs :-) Maybe I've taught it. But I did a pretty good job of teaching my kids to smile, too :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman I don't hear anyone proposing that a dog smiles when a human smiles at the dog, like a human will smile back at you when you smile at a human. Subject: Chimp Happy Smiles From: EJ Haskins Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:53:13 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca For one of the loveliest smiles I've ever seen in my life time, go to: http://www.basesciences.com/articlelist.asp?vt=SubCategory&SCID=312&Page=9&Amazing-Facts Scroll down to the bottom on the page. Or see attached. Smiles, Jenny H Subject: Fake smiles human From: EJ Haskins Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 22:19:10 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I couldn't resist this one!! http://www.strangepolitics.com/content/item/107774.html or go to here http://www.designverb.com/2006/12/23/spot-the-fake-smile/ I got the quiz by clicking on "this test" (which is in blue) It is probably more "scientific" :-) Cheers, Jenny H Subject: Re: Interspecies communication From: lihaug@aol.com Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 09:04:59 -0500 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca DO DOGS recognise photos/models/inanimate objects as representative of what we humans have made it to represent?>> I don't have the answer to this but I have an interesting anecdote. The head drug dog trainer from the Texas DPS called me one time. He had a dog that was alerting poorly when the drugs were behind sheetrock -- they could not get the dog to dig, bite and scratch aggressively enough at the wall. He made a Xerox copy of the dog's towel (they use a rolled up towel as a reinforcer) and taped it to the wall. It fixed the problem. I was actually quite surpised as I would not have expected a dog to react to a *picture* of a towel. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 fax www.texasvetbehavior.com LIhaug@aol.com APDT #692, IAABC -----Original Message----- From: EJ Haskins To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 1:48 am Subject: Re: Interspecies communication It would be. Because what is being tested in humans is their ability to recognise a photograph as a representation of the thing/person that was photographed. (On the other hand the men's pulse rates might go up, and they might have measurable changes in brain activity, but I don't think the men would ask the photo out, or even worry that the photo is going to see them at less than their best. They might though (who knows) react quite differently to a model standing as still as possible -- let's say she's an artists model. But you response bring this whole discussion back full circle. DO DOGS recognise photos/models/inanimate objects as representative of what we humans have made it to represent? Do dogs respond to animate smiles on their owners' faces? I can't answer for all dogs, but my dogs certainly do, and in general I would say the dog in my classes do too. Obviously these "expressions" are animate -- a frown or pout or a smile is a moving expression. (Ever noticed how YOU react to a "fixed" smile on a living person??) But most dogs that I know of (all dogs that I personally know of) fail to recognise a photo of a person as representing a person at all. I know OF a dog who was "taught" to distinguish between photos of dogs and photos of landscapes. I don't know, but I believe that because of dogs' vision, they recognise moving objects MUCH better than non-moving objects, and the type of movement is also a factor in their recognition. For example a plastic shopping bag is the object of choice for "lure coursing" with Jack Russells. Greyhounds race to catch two boards flapping together (the "hare"). I don't know of any statistical survey/research at all on how many dogs recognise pictures OR statues as the same as the living animals. I DO remember reading of research that was done with Police Dogs. They had the handlers all sit on the floor naked, then let in the dogs. The dogs apparently could not recognise their handlers. (That must have been I think in the 60s -- it was quoted in a German Shepherd how-to book to explain why we needed to allow our dogs into the house and get to know the whole family in different places with different clothes on or off .) I have known dogs who don't recognise their owners if they are wearing, eg, a hat. As I've said before, this would be VERY interesting. We might find breed differences, We might find dogs are better or worse at it that we suspect. Cheers, Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman . . . . Humans respond differently to photographs of faces rightside up or upside down. They also respond differently (i.e., different parts of the brain "light up") to faces showing different affects - happy, sad, fear, disgust, suprise, anger, and neutral. And, most interestingly, children with Autistic Disorder or even Autism Spectrum Disorders respond differently to these photographs than neurotypical children. It would be possible to do similar types of testing with dogs to see if they can recognize human facial affects by trying to teach a dog to respond to a smiling face photograph of a human with a reward compared to a sad face photograph of a human. Has anyone ever done such studies? This is a rather standard experimental format to determine if a species can discriminate among stimuli. Carnations mean admiration, Tulips mean love - what do Roses mean? Find out now! Subject: Re: [human-ethology] Fw: Dog Smiles From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 08:41:53 -0700 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Can you post a video that demonstrates this? And, if your dogs "smile" back at you, do they also smile at other people who "smile" at them? One does not "teach" humans to smile, as children born deaf and blind smile within the first few weeks of life. There is film documentation of this done by Danny Freedman in the 1960s. Ethologically, a human smile can occur spontaneously in certain contexts and it is also "released" by another person's smile. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: EJ Haskins To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:04 AM Subject: Re: [human-ethology] Fw: Dog Smiles Oh, Sorry Jay. When I smile at my dogs they smile back :-) Cheers, Jenny H Who is blessed with smiley dogs :-) Maybe I've taught it. But I did a pretty good job of teaching my kids to smile, too :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman I don't hear anyone proposing that a dog smiles when a human smiles at the dog, like a human will smile back at you when you smile at a human. Subject: Re: Animal Behaviour on YouTube From: doggiepause@comcast.net Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 15:49:00 +0000 (UTC) To: joseph stookey CC: applied-ethology network YouTube has gotten to be such a huge part of our culture. I think you have a great idea here, one that could benefit many,many dogs -- and people. There were even people on the dog daycare chat group that thought that video was funny, and these are supposedly people who know something about dog behavior. I am continually amazed how little my clients (dog daycare), some of whom have had dogs all their lives, know about dog behavior. (And if you could also get across the idea that a wagging tail does not necessarily mean a friendly dog, you could potentially reduce the number of dog bites.) Judy Gee Doggie Pause ltd. Englewood, CO PS The writer should include as many credentials as possible. ----- Original Message ----- From: "joseph stookey" To: "applied-ethology network" Sent: Friday, February 6, 2009 7:25:19 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Animal Behaviour on YouTube HI Everyone, The video of self directed aggression on YouTube, sent to us by Kristina Gage, is indeed troubling from the standpoint of the laughter coming from the people video taping the behaviour and their lack of appreciation that what they are seeing is not normal and something may be wrong. I've seen other video clips, sent to me by my students, of animals performing strange stereotypies or abnormal behaviours and all of the clips were recorded and sent to TV shows or posted on the Internet with the intent of being funny. I have seriously considered giving my students an assignment of finding such videos and having them write a brief, but educational comment, about the video, with the idea that we would post the "educational comments" below the video clip so that other viewers could be educated about what they were watching. When I bounced this idea off my son, he said, "First off you would be trying to educate some of the dumbest people on the planet, which is difficult to do and second you would only succeed in having some other joker write a follow up comment with disparaging and rude remarks, with the sole purpose of humiliating the students for being "know-it-alls", etc." To some extent I think my son is correct and the exercise I proposed would fall short of its goal of educating people who laugh at animals which engage in abnormal behaviours or behaviours they do not understand. However, I am toying with the idea of having my students create new/independent or stand alone "educational clips" that we could post on YouTube or similar Internet servers as a way to help educate the layman or interested people in the kinds of behaviour we can see, including normal and abnormal behaviours. For the abnormal behaviours the clips would include narratives on possible causes, preventions, solutions that may exist to treat them and/or advice to seek professional or veterinary assistance. I haven't launched this assignment on my students yet, but my hunch is that it may be a worthwhile exercise. I want to believe that if we (I use the term "we" to include all of you on this server) were to also use the Internet and YouTube to post educational video material then perhaps we may help educate the layman on behavioural topics and in the process help more animals that may need intervention. I would be grateful to receive some feedback on whether you think such an assignment would be of value for my students and the general public. And if we do this, should the video clips be posted on YouTube or just posted on our own web page? Thanks. Cheers, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: Re: Animal Behaviour on YouTube From: doggiepause@comcast.net Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 15:54:36 +0000 (UTC) To: Sabine Goubau CC: applied-ethology network , joseph stookey Yes, but: If it is out there, and if it is credible and well-done, word will get around and people like me, vets, trainers, and other more sophisticated dog lovers will refer others to it. And some people, even if it is a low number will find it on their own and profit by it. Can it be set up so that comments are not allowed? Judy Gee Doggie Pause ltd. Englewood, CO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sabine Goubau" To: "joseph stookey" Cc: "applied-ethology network" Sent: Friday, February 6, 2009 9:45:47 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: Animal Behaviour on YouTube Hello Joe, I asked my 22 yr old son what his thoughts were, as he is a heavy web user. Here is his take on it:. Joe's son is, unfortunately, right - attempts to educate by posting "comments" on videos typically fall on deaf ears, and when they do not, they fall on provocative ones who will, as stated, attempt to dismiss the comments posted in a completely unintelligible way. While you might assume that, given the amount of people who surf the internet, even if 99% ignore it, the 1% might be worth reaching out to - rising to the bait/debate from these ubiquitous "internet jokers" [known as "trolls"] can often do more harm than good. It's not a case of wanting to educate the dumbest people in the world, though - but wanting to educate people who are seeking only entertainment, and if you can't have it at the expense of some animal, they'll have it at the expense of someone posting "smart-ass" comments. The idea of commenting does have merit as an exercise for the students - making them think twice about said funny videos, but to expect to educate the viewers of the video in general is unrealistic. As for making your own videos; think of it this way - What do you and I use youtube for? To find comedian's skits, funny or in some cases cute videos, and the occasional music we don't have. Anything else needs to be of truly exceptional quality to get any sort of viewership. The last "Educational" clip I can recall watching was one of the computer-generated ambitious models of the inner life of a cell. -- Alexander Hynes joseph stookey wrote: > HI Everyone, > > The video of self directed aggression on YouTube, sent to us by > Kristina Gage, is indeed troubling from the standpoint of the laughter > coming from the people video taping the behaviour and their lack of > appreciation that what they are seeing is not normal and something may > be wrong. I've seen other video clips, sent to me by my students, of > animals performing strange stereotypies or abnormal behaviours and all > of the clips were recorded and sent to TV shows or posted on the > Internet with the intent of being funny. I have seriously considered > giving my students an assignment of finding such videos and having > them write a brief, but educational comment, about the video, with the > idea that we would post the "educational comments" below the video > clip so that other viewers could be educated about what they were > watching. When I bounced this idea off my son, he said, "First off > you would be trying to educate some of the dumbest people on the > planet, which is difficult to do and second you would only succeed in > having some other joker write a follow up comment with disparaging and > rude remarks, with the sole purpose of humiliating the students for > being "know-it-alls", etc." To some extent I think my son is correct > and the exercise I proposed would fall short of its goal of educating > people who laugh at animals which engage in abnormal behaviours or > behaviours they do not understand. However, I am toying with the idea > of having my students create new/independent or stand alone > "educational clips" that we could post on YouTube or similar Internet > servers as a way to help educate the layman or interested people in > the kinds of behaviour we can see, including normal and abnormal > behaviours. For the abnormal behaviours the clips would include > narratives on possible causes, preventions, solutions that may exist > to treat them and/or advice to seek professional or veterinary > assistance. > > I haven't launched this assignment on my students yet, but my hunch is > that it may be a worthwhile exercise. I want to believe that if we (I > use the term "we" to include all of you on this server) were to also > use the Internet and YouTube to post educational video material then > perhaps we may help educate the layman on behavioural topics and in > the process help more animals that may need intervention. I would be > grateful to receive some feedback on whether you think such an > assignment would be of value for my students and the general public. > And if we do this, should the video clips be posted on YouTube or just > posted on our own web page? > Thanks. > > Cheers, > > Joe > Subject: Re: "Fear Gimace" in a chimp From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 08:55:27 -0700 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca CC: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com This http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2953602647_f6526eff2b.jpg?v=0 is a "fear grimace" in the chimp. The chimp is also engaging in make-oneself-lower-or-smaller-or-more-vulnerable (LSV) behavior, which is a submissive display. Note that the chimp's two arms and hands are on the ground and weight is on them. When a chimp is aggressive and threatening, it stands tall with its arms up. However, the function of a fear grimace has some common functional elements with the function of a human smile. The human smile is primarily an appeasement gesture. It reduces hostility and agonism in a conspecific and signals a willingness to interact peacefully. The fear grimace has a similar (but not the same) function in both chimps and humans. It shows there is no intent to attack aggressively. The human facial expression on the American politician, Nancy Peloci, in this link http://www.strangepolitics.com/content/item/107774.html is also a fear grimace. The main difference in a human smile and a fear grimace is that the smile can be displayed towards someone who is not at all being a threat or being aggressive. Yet, even in humans the lower the social status the more one smiles. Lower social status individuals tend to smile more at the higher status individuals then vice versa. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: EJ Haskins To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 2:58 AM Subject: Re: "Fear Gimace" in a chimp Look at the eyes. And also the stasnce of the body. No facial expression occurs in isolation of other body (and sound and chemical) cues. Jenny H ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Cc: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:20 AM Subject: "Fear Gimace" in a chimp How is this behavior (not its function) different from the so called "smile" in a dog? Go to http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2953602647_f6526eff2b.jpg?v=0 Subject: Visual Counting in Cats (They can count!) From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 09:05:04 -0700 To: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Quantity discrimination in felines: a preliminary investigation of the domestic cat ( Felis silvestris catus ) Journal Journal of Ethology Publisher Springer Japan ISSN 0289-0771 (Print) 1439-5444 (Online) Issue Volume 27, Number 2 / May, 2009 Category Short Communication DOI 10.1007/s10164-008-0121-0 Pages 289-293 Subject Collection Biomedical and Life Sciences SpringerLink Date Thursday, October 02, 2008 Add to marked items Add to shopping cart Add to saved items Permissions & Reprints Recommend this article PDF (209.4 KB)HTMLFree PreviewFree Preview Short Communication Quantity discrimination in felines: a preliminary investigation of the domestic cat (Felis silvestris catus) Paola Etel Pisa1 and Christian Agrillo2 Contact Information (1) Psychology Department, Goethe-Universität, Frankfurt am Main, Germany (2) Department of General Psychology, University of Padova, via Venezia 8, 35131 Padova, Italy Received: 21 July 2008 Accepted: 8 September 2008 Published online: 2 October 2008 Abstract A large body of studies has investigated the capacity of non-human primates, dogs, birds and lower vertebrates to estimate different quantities of objects or events. Little attention, however, has been devoted to felines, and no study has specifically concentrated on cats’ numerical cognition. The present study aims to investigate the capacity of domestic cats to distinguish between two and three dots in order to obtain food; results showed that cats can be trained to discriminate between the two quantities. Furthermore our research suggests that cats do not spontaneously use numerical information, but rather seem to make use of visual cues that co-vary with numerosity in order to solve the task. Keywords Cat - Numerical competence - Quantity discrimination - Counting - Animal cognition Contact Information Christian Agrillo Email: christian.agrillo@unipd.it Fulltext Preview (Small, Large, Larger, Largest) Image of the first page of the fulltext Subject: Allosuckling in a wild Lama From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 09:07:17 -0700 To: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca A case of allosuckling in wild guanacos ( Lama guanicoe ) Journal Journal of Ethology Publisher Springer Japan ISSN 0289-0771 (Print) 1439-5444 (Online) Issue Volume 27, Number 2 / May, 2009 Category Short Communication DOI 10.1007/s10164-008-0127-7 Pages 295-297 Subject Collection Biomedical and Life Sciences SpringerLink Date Sunday, November 09, 2008 Add to marked items Add to shopping cart Add to saved items Permissions & Reprints Recommend this article PDF (134.3 KB)HTMLFree PreviewFree Preview Short Communication A case of allosuckling in wild guanacos (Lama guanicoe) Beatriz Zapata1, 5 Contact Information, Gabriela Gaete1, Loreto A. Correa2, Benito A. González3 and Luis A. Ebensperger4 (1) Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, Facultad de Cs. Veterinarias y Pecuarias, Universidad de Chile, Santa Rosa 11735, Santiago, Chile (2) Instituto de Zoología, Universidad Austral de Chile, Campus Isla Teja, Isla Teja s/n casilla 567, Valdivia, Chile (3) Laboratorio de Ecología de Vida Silvestre, Facultad de Cs. Forestales, Universidad de Chile, Santa Rosa 11315, Santiago, Chile (4) Departamento de Ecología, Facultad de Ciencias Biológicas and Centro de Estudios Avanzados en Ecología y Biodiversidad, Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile, Santiago, Chile (5) Avenida Grecia 2541, depto. 435, Santiago, Chile Received: 28 December 2007 Accepted: 6 October 2008 Published online: 9 November 2008 Abstract Although allosuckling, the lactation of non-filial offspring, can be a costly behavior, it has been reported in several species across a wide range of mammalian orders. Monotocous species such as ungulates exhibit this behavior less frequently than polytocous species, and most cases have been reported among captive specimens. A case of allosuckling of a free-ranging guanaco (Lama guanicoe) calf is reported. Allosuckling observed in this species may represent opportunistic behavior by the calf, supporting the “milk theft” hypothesis. Keywords Allonursing - Allosuckling - Guanacos - Ungulates - Milk theft - Parental care Contact Information Beatriz Zapata Email: bzapata@uchile.cl Email: beatrizzapata@hotmail.com Fulltext Preview (Small, Large, Larger, Largest) Image of the first page of the fulltext Subject: What's the Point of Being Warm Blooded? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 09:11:28 -0700 To: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126942.000-whats-the-point-of-being-warmblooded.html What's the point of being warm-blooded? by Nick Lane IF YOU stopped eating today, you wouldn't survive more than two months. A crocodile, on the other hand, might live for a year or more. Why the difference? You waste most of the food you eat generating heat. The evolution of warm-bloodedness, or endothermy, is one of life's great mysteries. Sure, there are some advantages - staying active in the cold, keeping young cosy and warm, and avoiding having to go out into the open to soak up heat from the sun. The thing is, you could get much the same advantages by turning up the heat only when and where in the body it is needed, as many animals do. So why do most birds and mammals keep the furnaces burning 24/7? Staying warm - which for birds means 40 °C on average - comes at a price. Some warm-blooded animals have to eat as much in one day as similarly sized reptiles do in a month, a dangerous and time-consuming strategy. Biologists have long struggled to understand why we mammals and our feathery cousins are warm-blooded. The standard explanation is that it evolved in small carnivores to enable an active, predatory lifestyle. Last year, however, a radical new idea was put forward: warm blood evolved not in carnivores but in herbivores, as a way of balancing their nutrient requirements. Though it is early days, this idea could explain not only why we have such an apparently wasteful lifestyle, but also a long-standing question about the dinosaurs (see "Why did dinosaurs grow so big?"). © Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd Subject: Re: [human-ethology] Fw: Dog Smiles From: Margory Cohen Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 13:47:32 -0800 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Two bits from a side-lines person on this -- Anthropomorphising is all well and good but -- it's not the same - the 'smile' in the dog and the smile amongst people Stop the direct carry over - I think it confuses and misconstrues. See greyhounds' greeting one another some time. See that photo somebody sent -- not the dogs who look more like they're panting - but one photo had a mouth with lips pulled and teeth exposed -- not in a growl. Clearly a dog smile. Abrantes wrote to dogs not smiling at other dogs, and he and I actually corresponded about that because I have seen deerhounds greet other deerhounds with a 'smile' and we call it a smile but it's nothing like what we people think of as our grins. -margory cohen And mine is for this list only. I see some posts copied to this list and a human ethology list and I prefer that anything I write here not go to forums where I am not a participant and care not to join. Thank you. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:41 AM Subject: Re: [human-ethology] Fw: Dog Smiles Can you post a video that demonstrates this? And, if your dogs "smile" back at you, do they also smile at other people who "smile" at them? One does not "teach" humans to smile, as children born deaf and blind smile within the first few weeks of life. There is film documentation of this done by Danny Freedman in the 1960s. Ethologically, a human smile can occur spontaneously in certain contexts and it is also "released" by another person's smile. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: EJ Haskins To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:04 AM Subject: Re: [human-ethology] Fw: Dog Smiles Oh, Sorry Jay. When I smile at my dogs they smile back :-) Cheers, Jenny H Who is blessed with smiley dogs :-) Maybe I've taught it. But I did a pretty good job of teaching my kids to smile, too :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman I don't hear anyone proposing that a dog smiles when a human smiles at the dog, like a human will smile back at you when you smile at a human. Subject: Re: "Fear Gimace" in a chimp From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:39:19 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Jenny, I'm not exactly sure what "interpret" means. To identify a "smile" behavior in a dog, one would only need to observe the behavior of the face. You only need to look at a human face to say that the human is smiling. You would not need to look elsewhere on the human or the dog. First, however, you would need to establish acceptable inter-rater reliability, as some of the posted pictures of dogs "smiling" just looked like open mouth panting to me. Then, one would need to characterize the muscles that contract to make a "smile" in a dog, similar to the facial affect scoring system developed by Paul Ekman to distinguish human facial affects on the basis of which muscles contract. See http://www.face-and-emotion.com/dataface/facs/guide/FACSIV1.html. To try to determine the proximate function of the "smile" behavior in a dog (or any species), one first needs to determine if the behavior is an intra-specific expressive signal. One does that by observing the result or outcome of the behavior on a conspecific. If the "smile" behavior leads to a predictable behavior in a conspecific, that predictable behavior in the conspecific is used to determine the "smile's" proximate function. If the "smile" is not associated with a predictable response in a conspecific because it is an intentional rather than an expressive behavior (perhaps like the flemen), then another method of determining its function is the other concomitant behaviors that accompany the "smile." So if the ears are back and the tail is wagging, that is collateral information that the smile is probably a friendly, rather than an agonistic behavior. Another method to determine a behavior's proximate function is context analysis. What is going on functionally in the social world of dogs when dogs "smile"? I posted what I did below because it was part of a larger posting in which I was making a point - that the fear grimace in chimps is similar to the fear grimace in humans. They have form and functional similarity. The chimp's fear grimace is probably a homolog of the human fear grimace. That can not be said about a human smile and a dog's "smile." From my perspective the form of a dog's smile has not been formally characterized and the function of a dog's "smile" is unknown other than it is a friendly rather than an agnostic behavior. Both the form and function of the dog's smile should be the object of further study. Regards, Jay R. Feierman To join the Yahoo Human Ethology group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: EJ Haskins To: Jay R. Feierman Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 6:02 PM Subject: Re: "Fear Gimace" in a chimp I don't quite follow why you posted this. The fact remains that to correctly interpret a 'smile" in humans and chimps you must observe more than the mouth. I said it, and you said it with references. Jenny H ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Cc: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 2:55 AM Subject: Re: "Fear Gimace" in a chimp This http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2953602647_f6526eff2b.jpg?v=0 is a "fear grimace" in the chimp. . . The human facial expression on the American politician, Nancy Peloci, in this link http://www.strangepolitics.com/content/item/107774.html is also a fear grimace. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Subject: Delivery Notification: Delivery has been delayed From: Internet Mail Delivery Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 23:53:57 -0600 (CST) To: applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca This report relates to a message you sent with the following header fields: Message-id: Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:46:00 -0500 (EST) From: LIHaug@aol.com To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: dog smiling video Your message has been enqueued and undeliverable for 3 days to the following recipients: Recipient address: deh910@mail.usask.ca Reason: unable to deliver this message after 3 days Delivery attempt history for your mail: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 22:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Sat, 07 Feb 2009 14:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Sat, 07 Feb 2009 10:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Sat, 07 Feb 2009 06:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Sat, 07 Feb 2009 02:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Fri, 06 Feb 2009 22:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Fri, 06 Feb 2009 18:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Fri, 06 Feb 2009 10:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Fri, 06 Feb 2009 06:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Fri, 06 Feb 2009 02:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Thu, 05 Feb 2009 22:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:47:50 -0600 (CST) Over quota Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:47:48 -0600 (CST) Over quota Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:47:48 -0600 (CST) Over quota Thu, 05 Feb 2009 06:47:48 -0600 (CST) Over quota Thu, 05 Feb 2009 02:47:48 -0600 (CST) Over quota Wed, 04 Feb 2009 22:47:48 -0600 (CST) Over quota The mail system will continue to try to deliver your message for an additional 4 days. 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Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 (fax) www.texasvetbehavior.com APDT #692, IAABC Subject: Wolf In Dog's Clothing? Stanford Study Reveals Twist In Fur Color Evolution From: cissy stamm Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 08:41:42 -0800 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/138209.php Cissy Subject: Re: Wolf In Dog's Clothing? Odd Thoughts re species From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 11:16:07 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Wolf In Dog's Clothing? Stanford Study Reveals Twist In Fur Color Evolution > http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/138209.php Odd thoughts, which maybe do not belong here. (Sorry, if so.) I've been told that the "official" (ie Stanford) classification experts now classify 'Canis familiaris' as a subspecies of wolf "Canis lupus familiaris". (Which of course, if the hypothesis of the above research is true, should be acceptable.) But, then the definition of a species is a population that can interbreed and produce viable and fertile offspring. (Speaking in language for school kids.) Now we KNOW that Great Danes and Chihuahuas cannot naturally interbreed, and when they are interbred artificially (believe me it has been done -- years ago someone here was prosecuted for animal cruelty for try that and similar crosses) the offspring are so deformed that they do not survive. But there is a continuous chain of interbreedability (is that a word?) between Chihuahuas and Great Danes. (Chihuahua--Australian Terrier--Cocker Spaniel--Labrador--Great Dane) So, have we humans, in domesticating dogs and developing different breeds actually created a "cline" rather than a single species. Or, in other words, if we eliminated ALL dog breeds of the size intermediate between the toy breeds and the giant breeds, would we have in fact two different species??? (And then possibly, to continue my tortuous thinking) would the toys be able to interbreed with coyotes, and the giants with the wolves, but not vice versa?? Which would of course create a new cline; "toy dogs--coyotes--wolves--giant dogs".) Cheers, Jenny H Coffs Australia Subject: Re: Animal Behaviour on YouTube From: Olsson@ibmc.up.pt Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 09:46:06 +0000 To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca CC: applied-ethology network Dear Joe, Your question and suggestion are interesting and worth thinking about. I'm not sure it's such a hopeless idea to post something on You Tube. I searched for "animal behavior" and the first hit was a medley of funny animal behaviours, some which portray unfortunate sitcom situations animals get themselves into by accident, similar which animals get humans into, some unfortunate animals dressed up in human clothes or trained to do odd things, and the ones with animals which seem to have a problem. (The next hits were David Attenboroughs). A search for "Funny animal videos" resulted in a medley of animals doing perfectly normal although somewhat unusual things followed by an unlucky hamster dressed in a hat and placed on top of a toy cow. Why should we expect everyone else watching that video to be either stupid or have a sick sense of humour? I think one key issue is how the comment is made though. A question, opening for an alternative interpretation ("But have you thought of the possibility that...") rather than a moral lesson is more likely to go down well with the reader (and maybe less likely to be met with dismissive smartass comments, although I'm less sure about that). Best regards, Anna -----joseph stookey wrote: ----- To: Sabine Goubau From: joseph stookey Date: 02/06/2009 08:06PM cc: applied-ethology network Subject: Re: Animal Behaviour on YouTube Alexander Hynes wrote: "As for making your own videos; think of it this way - What do you and I use youtube for? To find comedian's skits, funny or in some cases cute videos, and the occasional music we don't have. Anything else needs to be of truly exceptional quality to get any sort of viewership. The last "Educational" clip I can recall watching was one of the computer-generated ambitious models of the inner life of a cell." Hi Alexander, I think you are correct in that people searching for educational material on the web would not normally go to YouTube as their first place to "shop". So from that perspective it would be better if we simply posted video material on our web page, however, wouldn't the students' educational videos which we could post on YouTube also be linked as "related video" to some of the intended funny videos, if we used similar words in the title? What I am thinking is that even if people watched a "funny" video of a dog, say non-stop chasing its tail, and if we had a video on a similar topic then wouldn't our video also pop up as a related video? If "yes" then would not some people likely watch our video and gain some education even if it was their intention to find another funny video? I don't really know enough about how YouTube works, but I am thinking we could educate some viewers that way and it would be better than trying to add a comment about some other video. I am guessing that if we post all our videos from the same account, then once a person found one of our videos, they could find all of them if they were interested. Are these valid assumptions? Cheers, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Professor of Applied Ethology Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: Wolf Behavior From: cissy stamm Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:17:02 -0800 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca http://www.wolf.org/wolves/news/iwmag/2008/winter/alphawolf.pdf Cissy Subject: new video posted showing horse sorting items by class... From: Kayce Cover Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:50:04 -0500 (EST) To: zoo-biology@yahoogroups.com, dogbehaviorscience@yahoogroups.com CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca At synalia.com, ... video of a horse making a series of discriminations as to whether items are foods or tools. She chooses 11 of 13 items correctly, corrects her two mistakes, and does this by toggling between a thumb and finger choice (thumb is assigned one meaning, finger another). Related video, an Irish Setter learning body parts, a cat learning to relax and go through an x-ray, a border collie learning simple behaviors which are put together into more complex behavior, a Gypsy pony learning a few words in real time at a public fair, (more)... I'll be presenting the technique supporting this at the IAABC conference, Sat April 25th, 2009, Houston, Texas, with a two-day seminar on details Mon/Tue April 27/28. The horse has a demonstrated understanding of hundreds of words. We do the same thing with dogs and other animals. Regards, Kayce Kayce Cover, MSEd, BS An Sci, CBAC, IAABC Syn Alia Training Systems http://synalia.com http://www.facebook.com/people/Syn-Alia-Sats/1179766268 SATS/Bridge and Target: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/bridgeandtarget2 Trainest (newbies): http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/trainest Subject: and now to something completely different... From: Christina Lager Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 12:44:44 +0100 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Dear list Does anyone have any good references to rabbit behaviour? I can find some articles on lab. rabbits, but I am looking for something on wild rabbits primarily and pet rabbits secondly. Anyone know of any good books, articles or webpages outthere? Something *not* called "my first pet rabbit, a young readers guide", please ;o) Best regards Christina Lager DVM Denmark Subject: Re: and now to something completely different... From: Sabine Goubau Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 13:19:47 -0700 To: Christina Lager CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Christina, I was unable to find any useful scientific papers on the behavior of wild and domesticated rabbits (for my personal pleasure, not my line of research), but I didn't look very hard either. I worked a little on a rabbit farm a long time ago and I own two pet rabbits. I ended up finding useful information on the House Rabbit Society site. They do answer e-mails eventually and can give you further leads. http://www.rabbit.org/ The social behavior of guinea pigs has been more studied it seems. I worked for a short time as an undergrad with a research group at the University of Bielefeld in Germany. Maybe someone there can give you leads on finding information on rabbit behavior. They were studying both, domesticated and wild guinea pigs. Good luck, Sabine On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 4:44 AM, Christina Lager wrote: Dear list Does anyone have any good references to rabbit behaviour? I can find some articles on lab. rabbits, but I am looking for something on wild rabbits primarily and pet rabbits secondly. Anyone know of any good books, articles or webpages outthere? Something *not* called "my first pet rabbit, a young readers guide", please ;o) Best regards Christina Lager DVM Denmark Subject: Re: and now to something completely different... From: EJ Haskins Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 10:06:20 +1100 To: Christina Lager CC: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hi Christina, I have found lots of URLs for you -- some research and others that may lead you closer to what you are looking for. These are all sites from Australia, where you must remember that most of our concern about rabbits here is how to eliminate them. Also their behaviour here might differ vastly from their behaviour in a cooler, wetter Europe. I do know that in north Western Australia they say that rabbits will not run wild -- the wet season is too hot for them to breed in and the 'Kimberly Kite' keeps their numbers in check. http://www.raptor.org.au/mmigrans.html When we lived in the Kimberlies we always saw them circling in large numbers over fires. (And , OT, an interesting story I just happened to find: http://www.publish.csiro.au/?act=view_file&file_id=MU9820053.pdf Probably the Wedge Tail Eagle also helps :-) http://www.australianfauna.com/wedgetailedeagle.php Anyway here're the rabbit URLs http://www.publish.csiro.au/paper/CWR9580007.htm Social behaviour of an experimental colony of wild rabbits, Oryctolagus cuniculus (L.) I. Establishment of the colony http://test.eprints.qut.edu.au/16437/ Does behavioural plasticity contribute to differences in population genetic structure in wild rabbit populations in arid and semi-arid Australia? http://www.publish.csiro.au/paper/CWR9640144.htm A comparison of behaviour, reproduction, and mortality of wild and domestic rabbits in confined population http://www.ddmrb.org.au/Files/rabbit_strategy.pdf PDF Qld Govt paper http://www.southwestnrm.org.au/publications/downloads/10_rabbits-press.pdf Information sheet http://www.feral.org.au/content/species/FAQrabbit.cfm Rabbit Information sheet Department of Primary Industries and Energy File Format: Microsoft Word Rabbits in small groups spend more time in vigilant behaviour than rabbits ...... The regional differences in rabbit behaviour, and therefore differences in ... http://www.daff.gov.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0014/91103/rabbit.doc - Similar pages by CK Williams - 1995 - Related articles http://search.informit.com.au/documentSummary;dn=236079153054559;res=IELENG Abstract: A research work on rabbits including the chinning behaviour of rabbits, which seemed to be marking their territory by rubbing against rocks and posts and other rabbits, is discussed. It is found that the secretions from the rabbit chin gland contain number of organic substances and there were some unexpected components. http://www.animalbehaviour.net/JudithKBlackshaw/Chapter9.htm Notes on some topics in applied animal behaviour THE BEHAVIOUR AND MANAGEMENT OF PEST SPECIES All the best, Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Lager" To: Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 10:44 PM Subject: and now to something completely different... > Dear list > Does anyone have any good references to rabbit behaviour? > I can find some articles on lab. rabbits, but I am looking for something on > wild rabbits primarily and pet rabbits secondly. > Anyone know of any good books, articles or webpages outthere? > Something *not* called "my first pet rabbit, a young readers guide", please > ;o) > Best regards > Christina Lager > DVM Denmark > > Subject: Rabbit Literature From: sabine.gebhardt@bvet.admin.ch Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:46:18 +0100 To: clager@c.dk CC: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hi Christina: Prof. D. von Holst, University of Bayreuth, has performed studies on Wild rabbits. About pet rabbits: Anne McBride, Why does my rabbit ..? Product Description Rabbits are popular domesticated pets, but many develop problems because of living conditions that do not allow them to follow their behavioral instincts. This guide to troubleshooting rabbit behavior clues owners in to the history of the domesticated rabbit and describes how rabbits live and breed. Common problems among rabbit owners are discussed, as are probable causes for irregular behavior, including instincts that make rabbits behave in certain ways. Both hutch and house rabbits, as well as troubles specific to each, are covered. About the Author Anne McBride is an animal behaviorist at the University of Southampton. She has done extensive research on rabbits and lives with bunnies in Southampton, England. Best wishes, Sabine Sabine Gebhardt Zentrum für tiergerechte Haltung, Geflügel und Kaninchen (ZTHZ) Centre for proper housing of poultry and rabbits (ZTHZ) Aussenstelle des Bundesamt für Veterinärwesen Federal veterinary office FVO Burgerweg 22, CH-3052 Zollikofen Switzerland Tel. +41 (0)31 915 3513, Fax +41 (0)31 915 3514 sabine.gebhardt@bvet.admin.ch http://www.bvet.admin.ch -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: EJ Haskins [mailto:ejhaskins@bigpond.com] Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. Februar 2009 00:06 An: Christina Lager Cc: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Betreff: Re: and now to something completely different... Hi Christina, I have found lots of URLs for you -- some research and others that may lead you closer to what you are looking for. These are all sites from Australia, where you must remember that most of our concern about rabbits here is how to eliminate them. Also their behaviour here might differ vastly from their behaviour in a cooler, wetter Europe. I do know that in north Western Australia they say that rabbits will not run wild -- the wet season is too hot for them to breed in and the 'Kimberly Kite' keeps their numbers in check. http://www.raptor.org.au/mmigrans.html When we lived in the Kimberlies we always saw them circling in large numbers over fires. (And , OT, an interesting story I just happened to find: http://www.publish.csiro.au/?act=view_file&file_id=MU9820053.pdf Probably the Wedge Tail Eagle also helps :-) http://www.australianfauna.com/wedgetailedeagle.php Anyway here're the rabbit URLs http://www.publish.csiro.au/paper/CWR9580007.htm Social behaviour of an experimental colony of wild rabbits, Oryctolagus cuniculus (L.) I. Establishment of the colony http://test.eprints.qut.edu.au/16437/ Does behavioural plasticity contribute to differences in population genetic structure in wild rabbit populations in arid and semi-arid Australia? http://www.publish.csiro.au/paper/CWR9640144.htm A comparison of behaviour, reproduction, and mortality of wild and domestic rabbits in confined population http://www.ddmrb.org.au/Files/rabbit_strategy.pdf PDF Qld Govt paper http://www.southwestnrm.org.au/publications/downloads/10_rabbits-press.pdf Information sheet http://www.feral.org.au/content/species/FAQrabbit.cfm Rabbit Information sheet Department of Primary Industries and Energy File Format: Microsoft Word Rabbits in small groups spend more time in vigilant behaviour than rabbits ...... The regional differences in rabbit behaviour, and therefore differences in ... http://www.daff.gov.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0014/91103/rabbit.doc - Similar pages by CK Williams - 1995 - Related articles http://search.informit.com.au/documentSummary;dn=236079153054559;res=IELENG Abstract: A research work on rabbits including the chinning behaviour of rabbits, which seemed to be marking their territory by rubbing against rocks and posts and other rabbits, is discussed. It is found that the secretions from the rabbit chin gland contain number of organic substances and there were some unexpected components. http://www.animalbehaviour.net/JudithKBlackshaw/Chapter9.htm Notes on some topics in applied animal behaviour THE BEHAVIOUR AND MANAGEMENT OF PEST SPECIES All the best, Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Lager" To: Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 10:44 PM Subject: and now to something completely different... > > Dear list > > Does anyone have any good references to rabbit behaviour? > > I can find some articles on lab. rabbits, but I am looking for something > > on > > wild rabbits primarily and pet rabbits secondly. > > Anyone know of any good books, articles or webpages outthere? > > Something *not* called "my first pet rabbit, a young readers guide", > > please > > ;o) > > Best regards > > Christina Lager > > DVM Denmark > > > > Subject: General Inquiry From: ismail thoya Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 13:34:30 -0800 (PST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi, I have a strong interest in the predator-prey relationship.I am seeking information on this subject.Anybody with information about it such as articles,websites,researchers dedicated to or currently doing research on this,schools or colleges known to be strong in this field, anything should please make it available. I know i may sound vague but am a novice enthusiast and looking for ways and means to carve out a career path in animal ethology based on this subject matter. cheers Dr.Ngoka BVM, MKVA. Mombasa,Kenya. Subject: text books From: Olsson@ibmc.up.pt Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:36:25 +0000 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Dear all, This is a question for those of you who are teaching (applied) ethology: Which textbook(s) do you use for which courses/degrees? Many thanks for your help! Anna Olsson Subject: Cats From: juliajoe Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:22:07 -0300 To: applied-ethology Hi everybody, Someone knows how I can buy rat and cat urine or body smell ? I Know that it sounds a little crazy but in scientific research who is normal ??? Juliana Clemente Machado - Brazil - 2009