From: IN%"highamcj@acasun.eckerd.edu" "Chris J. Higham" 1-FEB-1998 20:13:19.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: William's Correction for G-test Hello everybody I have collected all the data I can for my senior thesis on deceptive communication and behavior in the stomatopod crustacean Neogonodactylus oerstedii. It's time for statistics!! Could anyone email me directions on how to perform William's Correction for G-tests. I can do the G-test, but what is William's Correction? My library does not have the "Sokal and Rolhf" book, so I am receiving it via inter-library loan. Unfortunately, it could be up to two weeks before I get the book. By then I have to have the statistical tests completed. I would greatly appreciate any help. Thank you, Chris Higham From: IN%"mb0u5038@liverpool.ac.uk" 2-FEB-1998 01:12:31.72 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: William's Correction for G-test Chris Higham I can possibly help you out with your statistical problems. First of all have have you looked at "yate's correction for continuity", recommended for small sample sizes? Secondly I can get a copy of using the Williams correction for a test of independance to you in 1 of 2 ways. 1) Can you accept the relavent pages from Biometry (sokal and Rohlf) if I scanned them for you? This way you get the equations and theory. You have to be able to accept either .jpg .gif .bmp via email though. 2) If this isnt possible, I can send you the theory behind the equation, this may not be so good, as my knowledge of stats isnt great. Here is the correction anyway in brief. (taken from "Sokal R R & Rohlf F J (1981) Biometry, The Maple-Vail Book Manufacturing Group, USA.) Williams' correction for a 2*2 table is: example A plant ecologist samples 100 tress of a rare spp from a 400 sq mile area. He records for each tree whether it is rooted in serpentine soils or not and whether its leaves are pubescent or smooth. SOIL PUBESCENT SMOOTH TOTALS serpentine 12 22 34 N/serpentine 16 50 66 Totals 28 72 100 = n Algebraic representation of this table is as follows: Sigma a b a+b c d c+d sigma a+c b+d a+b+c+d=n So you know the g-test, the correction is as follows: q = "1 + ([(n/a+b)+(n/c+d)-1]*[(n/a+c)+(n/b+d)-1] /6n)" I hope that makes sense, it is impossible to line it out in a true equation form. Here is how you use "q": If you use the example above in your G test, you should result in the answer of G = 1.33249 and q = 1.02281 thus G_adjusted = G/q = 1.33249/1.02281 = 1.30277 Compare G adj with critical value for chi squared for one degree of freedom. Since the obsereved G adj is much less than chi squred at 0.05[1] = 3.841, you accept the null hypothesis and that in this case leaf type is independat of the type of soil in which the tree is rooted. I hope that was of help. Geoffrey Lester Gibbs. The University of Liverpool, Port Erin Marine Biological Laboratories, Port Erin, Isle of Man, GB. ~Hottriangle@hotmail.com ~mb0u5038@liv.ac.uk ~http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2962 From: IN%"olsen@virgil.ruc.dk" "Lars M. Olsen" 2-FEB-1998 08:29:26.14 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology-L" CC: Subj: Fax numbers to Dr. Katherine A. Houpt (Cornell) and Prof. Paul Leyhausen (Germany) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_3ntIPkS/8DnCP0Gn4pSjxw) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone,=20 does anyone have the abovementioned fax numbers ?=20 Please reply to Ellen Moshenberg (Feline-L) ellen@bgumail.bgu.ac.il It is regarding the Israeli feral cat extermination programme and urgent = aswell. thanks in advance, Lars -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------- Lars M. Olsen Environmental Biology Dept. Roskilde University DK-4000 Denmark SET FELINE-L TOPICS=3D-CATCHAT -RESCUE -LEGIS -TEST +CATCARE +NEWSLETTER = +RAIN +HUGS +TAILS Http://virgil.ruc.dk/~olsen/ The Scratching Post Denmark -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_3ntIPkS/8DnCP0Gn4pSjxw) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi everyone,
 
       does anyone = have the=20 abovementioned fax numbers ?
Please reply = to Ellen=20 Moshenberg (Feline-L) ellen@bgumail.bgu.ac.il
It=20 is regarding the Israeli feral cat extermination programme and urgent=20 aswell. 
 
thanks in advance,
Lars
 
----------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------
Lars=20 M. Olsen
Environmental Biology Dept.    Roskilde=20 University     DK-4000 Denmark 
SET FELINE-L TOPICS=3D-CATCHAT = -RESCUE -LEGIS=20 -TEST +CATCARE +NEWSLETTER +RAIN +HUGS +TAILS
Http://virgil.ruc.dk/~olsen/&nb= sp;      =20 The Scratching Post =20 Denmark
--------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------- 
--Boundary_(ID_3ntIPkS/8DnCP0Gn4pSjxw)-- From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 2-FEB-1998 23:06:43.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ISAE" CC: Subj: Cattle sexual behaviour on rangelands Dear All A colleague has asked if I'd put out a request for information or references on studies on the sexual behaviour of cattle grazing large areas of land. Specifically he is after information on the territorial/ home-range aspects and how much bulls and cows move around to seek each other out. Can anybody help out? Thanks very much. Carol From: IN%"s.vdweghe@ktbl.de" "sabine van den weghe" 3-FEB-1998 04:16:39.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re:Fax numbers to ... and Prof. Leyhausen Dear Ellen, as far as I know there is only a post address available of Prof. Leyhausen, as follows: Prof. Dr. Paul Leyhausen Landseestr. 3a A-6020 INNSBRUCK Austria I hope it is still valid. One additional information: Prof. Leyhausen and Dr.M. Pfleiderer published a very interesting paper on: The "Passive Defence Sydrome" and the concept of animal well beeing (1995),pg. 75-84. In: Aktuelle Arbeiten zur artgem=E4=DFen Tierhaltung 1994 - text is german, table, figures and summary in english - which handles different expressive behaviour patterns of e.g. feeling safe in the lynx and African wild cat, illustrated through marvellous drawings. If you are interested in more information on this, please, let me know. Sabine ************************************************************* Sabine Van den Weghe Kuratorium f=FCr Technik und Bauwesen in der Landwirtschaft KTBL Committee for Agricultural Engineering and Farm Construction Bartningstr. 49 D-64289 Darmstadt Germany Tel.: +49-6151-7001 149 Fax: +49-6151-7001 123 email: s.vdweghe@ktbl.de *************************************************************** From: IN%"hpeet@worldonline.nl" "Herman Peet" 3-FEB-1998 11:03:11.56 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied ethology list'" CC: Subj: e-collars for dogs Dear list members, I would like to ask you a question which is not directly related to the = topic of this list. Nevertheless, I hope that this forum has access to = the facts I am looking for. If anyone is annoyed by this message, please = accept my apologies. For our Dutch SPCA I am currently preparing a note on the pro's and = con's of the various electronic collars for dogs. These collars are = marketed as "training aids" for remote training, and derivatives are = used in invisible fencing systems and anti-bark devices. The purpose of = the note I am preparing is to enable the organization to take a view = about the admissibility of these devices, based on facts which are both = of technical as well as ethological nature. Before I continue, please be = assured that I am definetely not an advocate of these devices. I do not = consider to use them as I am convinced there are always better = alternatives to modify a dog's behavior. However, there are people using = these systems, and I consider it my responsibility to supply our SPCA = with proper ammunition to effectively oppose the use of the high-tech = collars. It is obvious that these collars have short- and long lasting negative = effects on canine behavior, and I think I covered most of this ground in = my note. During research for background material I also found a = reference to physical damage which may be inflicted on the dog, i.e. = changes in the muscular system (especially of the heart), the brains and = blood vessels. My question is if this reference to adverse physical effects can be = substantiated somehow. Does anyone of you know where I can find further = information on this topic? Is this information accessible to the public = (preferably via the web someway)? Thanks for your attention, Met vriendelijke groet / With best regards, Herman Peet "Kwispel" dog training and behaviour counselling Hoofddorp, The Netherlands e-mail: hpeet@worldonline.nl www: http://home.worldonline.nl/~hpeet From: IN%"uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar" "Dr. Leopoldo Estol" 3-FEB-1998 17:53:53.11 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" CC: Subj: Information about AW in Spanish Dear pals I will start this year teaching the first university course about Animal Welfare in my country, Argentina. I have several books about this issue but all in English. I need information about Spanish editions of valuable (recommended) books about Animal Welfare issues (general topics, AW vs A Rights, A Rights, moral an ethical issues). I really appreciate any suggestion, please include information about editorial sources (Fax / email / URL). Thank you in advance Profesor Leopoldo Estol, Medico Veterinario, Diplomado en Salud Publica. Director, Carrera de Veterinaria, Universidad del Salvador. Campus " Nuestra Seniora del Pilar", C.C. 198, Pilar 1629, Provincia de Buenos Aires, ARGENTINA. Home phone (Internat. 00 54 1) 555 4580 / 552 1476 Office Fax. & Phone (Internat. 00 54 322) 31260 / 31261 / 31262 / 31263 / 90503 / 26053 / 26057 E-mail: uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar URL :http://salvador.edu.ar From: IN%"Toby.Knowles@bristol.ac.uk" "Toby Knowles" 4-FEB-1998 07:59:41.44 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Review of cattle transport I have been asked to write a review of the literature on the transportation of cattle by road. If anyone is working in the area and has recently published work which they think should be included in a review I would be most grateful for a copy. The sort of work which I am likely to have overlooked are very recent publications and work published as proceedings of meetings. Thank you all in advance, Toby ---------------------- Dr Toby Knowles School of Veterinary Science University of Bristol Langford, Bristol BS18 7DY UK Tel: (44) 0117 928 9214 Fax: (44) 0117 928 9324 Toby.Knowles@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"dmills@dmu.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" 4-FEB-1998 09:26:23.73 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Research vacancies in clinical ethology/ canine behaviour problems The following vacancies have been created within the Faculty of Applied Sciences at De Montfort University Lincoln, School of Agriculture & Horticulture. They represent an exciting opportunity to join a multi-disciplinary team concerned with the investigation of behaviour problems in domestic animals. This advertisement should also appear in next weeks New Scientist 1. Research assistant in Clinical ethology (Ref CE1/98) A research assistant is required for a project investigating emotional disturbances in dogs. Salary in the range £10,018-£13,101 for three years. It is anticipated that there will be the opportunity to register for a higher degree whilst working on this project. 2. Part-time Research Associate in Clinical Ethology (Ref CE2/98) Applications are invited from post-doctoral scientists to join a team investigating individual differences in learning by dogs. The position is initially available on a part-time basis for between 12 and 18 months. Salary will be in the range £14,648 -£16,971 pro rata Application details and further information may be obtained from The Personnel Dept, De Montfort University Lincoln, Chad Varah House, Lincoln, LN1 3BP U.K. Tel U.K. (0)1400 521536 E-Mail Enquiries will not be accepted. The University is an equal opportunities employer Closing date for the receipt of completed applications February 28 1998 PLEASE DO NOT CONTACT ME FOR DETAILS THANK YOU From: IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu" "Ted Friend" 4-FEB-1998 17:37:38.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Monty Roberts Here is an article some of you may find interesting - a different perspective on Monty Roberts. I don't recall seeing it on this net before or much discussion about Monty Roberts. Ted Friend San Francisco Examiner Article: January 11, 1997 BIOGRAPHY CALLED UNBRIDLED FICTION But horseman defends book that claims his father was a killer by Eric Brazil OF THE EXAMINER STAFF With the international success of "The Man Who Listens to Horses," his autobiography, Monty Roberts has become world's most famous horse trainer and the best-known writer reared in Salinas since John Steinbeck. If only he had not accused his father of child abuse, homicide, racism and cruelty to animals, Roberts' family and old friends say they would have shrugged off what they regard as his self-promoting, vainglorious resume inflation and watched his legend grow. Instead, angry and insulted, they are denouncing his book as a mean-spirited hit piece that gratuitously defames the reputation of a good man and fictionalizes pivotal moments of Roberts' early life for dramatic effect. Roberts, 62, has deciphered the body language of horses. He calls it Equus. Employing it, he has amazed skeptical audiences around the world. In 30 minutes, he has unbroken colts saddled, bridled and ridden, and spoiled or dangerous horses gentled and tractable. While some thoroughbred trainers scoff at Roberts' technique as a gimmick, Britain's Queen Elizabeth was so impressed at a 1989 command performance at Windsor Castle that Roberts' easy-does-it method is incorporated in all royal British equine training. Not since Alexander the Great tamed the wild stallion Bucephalus by turning his head away from the sun so that he was no longer frightened of his shadow has a horse trainer won such notoriety. Roberts has made "horse breaking" and "bronco busting" obsolete. "I've discovered that horses are trying to tell us that you haven't needed for 6,000 years to enslave us. You haven't needed to bash us into submission," he said in an interview at his Flag Is Up Farm in Solvang, Santa Barbara County, an elegant, 186-acre thoroughbred breeding, training and boarding operation. Effective communication makes horses docile, willing partners, he said. Roberts' book has been on the New York Times bestseller list for 21 weeks and is in its 17th printing, with more than 600,000 copies sold in the United States. First published in Britain, where it also was a bestseller, "The Man Who Listens to Horses" has been translated into French, German and Dutch. "His technique and his method stand on their own merits, and Monty should let it go at that," said his aunt Joyce Renebome of Galt, Sacramento County, who is just six months older than Roberts and had a sisterly relationship with him during their childhood. "Some of the things he says in his book are absolutely ludicrous." "This is killing me," said Roberts' brother, Larry, 61, of Ukiah. "It's killing our whole family. I can't understand why he had to write that stuff. It didn't happen, but how do you prove it didn't happen?" Roberts says he was motivated to study equine psychology and devise a benign method of starting horses in reaction to his father's brutality to horses and himself. Both claims are false, Roberts' critics assert. Worse, they say, is his charge that the elder Roberts beat a black soldier to death, with a horrified Monty looking on. And they contend that the dramatic 15-page opening section of his book, in which Roberts describes beginning to figure out horse language at age 13, alone in the Nevada desert, gathering mustangs for Salinas' big California Rodeo and watching a dun mare discipline an obstreperous colt, is sheer fiction. THE FAMILY HAS GONE BALLISTIC Roberts is a confident and competitive man who has had conspicuous success in a high-pressure business, buying, selling and training thoroughbreds. His horses have won more than 200 stakes races, including the Santa Anita Derby and the Arc d'Triomphe in Paris twice. As a younger man, he won multiple national championships riding some renowned cow horses - Johnny Tivio, Night Mist and Fiddle d'Or. He says the critics are uninformed and talking nonsense. "The family has gone ballistic, and they think they know exactly how I lived and that they know all about me," Roberts said. "What I put in the book can be argued about and can be twisted and tweaked, but the things about my family are so crystal clear in my mind that there's no chance I'm appreciably off." As for the Nevada wild horse episode, in which he portrays himself as the leader and instigator of the roundup, he conceded in an interview that he was just part of a team on which he was the only nonadult. "If I've made myself too much for the reader to bear as the center of all that, it's only because the author puts himself in the center," he said. Nevertheless, "it was the most pivotal experience of my life." His critics' distress over the book comes against a background of the high regard, bordering on reverence, in which his father, Marvin E. Roberts Sr., was held in Salinas. For almost 50 years, the elder Roberts, who died at age 77 in 1985, taught the sons and daughters of Salinas' elite - growers, shippers and professionals - how to ride horses. For generations of riders, Roberts and his wife, Marguerite, were great teachers who personified the spirit of the 87-year-old California Rodeo, then as now Salinas' signature event. The rodeo arena at the Monterey County Sheriff's Posse grounds is named for him. Between 1941 and 1947, the elder Roberts also was a Salinas police officer, attaining the rank of lieutenant. He was the friendly cop who advised elementary school traffic patrols around the city. The younger Roberts writes that he was hospitalized at age 7 after being beaten with a chain by his father for defying his brutal horse breaking instructions and demonstrating his gentle method of "joining up" with a green horse. "The beatings continued weekly for three more years before finally starting to taper off when I was ten," he writes in the book. "Only when I was fifteen did they cease altogether." In a 16-page, single-spaced letter to relatives, Roberts said the beatings were worse than described in the book. One beating, with a polo mallet, evidently fractured his spine in several places and destroyed an adrenal gland, he said. "I blame him for overt violence toward me - all out dangerous violence. I had dozens of bones broken before puberty," Roberts said during the Solvang interview. That violence provided impetus for developing his own method of starting horses. His mother knew of the beatings but told no one and instructed him to tell the doctors who treated him that he had been bucked off and dragged, Roberts said. NO SIGN OF ABUSE "There's no way in hell that happened," said Larry Roberts, a former professional rodeo rider, youth counselor, pilot and horse trainer. "We slept in the same room, and I think I would've known. My dad was never violent with horses or with us." Besides, he said, "my mother ruled the roost. She never would have stood for it." Salinas businesswoman Jackie Felman Daly boarded her horse at the Robertses' stables for several years and "was out there every morning at daybreak, and I would've been aware of what was going on if Monty was being beaten. I saw him all the time. Marvin never hurt Monty. What he's saying is just a farce. Most of that book is fiction." "Monty's a good hand with a horse, and he does a good job, and he Didn't need to do this," said his uncle Jim Martins of Salinas. "Monty felt he was so above everyone else, but the reason he got there was from his mom and dad. For him to degrade them like this is just not right," said Roberts' childhood friend Dick Gillott, a Constant visitor at the Robertses' stables and at their house during the wartime years. "I never saw him limping around or acting hurt. I would've remembered something like that." Roberts said that the phenomenon of fatherly violence directed at an elder son and the mother's complicity in keeping the abuse quiet was common and that he had been a victim of it. "I was too frightened to discuss this with anybody," he said. Renebome said, "I think Monty wanted to establish himself as an expert on child abuse as well as an expert in training animals, so he had to establish himself as an abused child." Roberts said that when the worst beatings occurred, during World War II, "my father had lost his livelihood and his place of business, and we were living in a little house in town. He had a lot of aspirations he wasn't able to fulfill, and he wanted me to do those things. I did become those things, but not exactly the way he wanted them done." In his book, Roberts describes in detail how he was commissioned in June 1948 by the late Dr. E.J. Leach, then-financial secretary of the California Rodeo Association, to go to Nevada and round up horses for the rodeo's wild horse race, the pivotal experience of his adolescence. The British edition of the book identifies his companions as brother Larry and friends Gillott and Tony Vargas. In the American edition, he switches to a Salinas man and wife, Ralph and Vivian Carter, now deceased. "We never went," Vargas said. "I don't know where he got this. I can't believe some of the stories he's told." Gillott said, "There's no validity in that all. Everybody would've known about that if I went there." Roberts said that "subsequent to the U.K. version, I was reminded by two different people that it was actually Ralph and Vivian. . . I just tried to set the record straight by putting the right people in the right trip." California Rodeo records contain no mention of a wild horse gathering trip by the Carters or Roberts in 1948. The rodeo was held June 17 to 21 that year, and the late Ki Silacci, arena director - not Leach - was in charge of the wild horse race. "Monty was an honor student at Sacred Heart. He would've been in school when they went to get the horses," Renebome said. Besides, "Marvin and Marguerite would never have let him go." THE WAY WRITERS DO IT Roberts responded that "all I've said is that Doc Leach put together a team (to gather wild horses), and I was part of it. "It was the most pivotal experience of my life, and I went to learn about communicating with horses," he said. "I'm not going to change anything. Maybe I wasn't really the center of this expedition, but that's the way writers do it." Roberts provided conclusive proof of his ability to "join up" with a wild horse in the wide open spaces last March in the Cuyama Valley. A British Broadcasting Corp. crew caught the whole adventure on film. "I did the same thing in 1952," he said. "It went exactly the way I said it would go, and everyone said it was impossible. Here I am at 62, doing it all over again." Roberts also said that he and brother Larry had broken dozens of the wild horses after the 1948 rodeo, which fetched a higher than usual price at the post-rodeo sale in the fall. Never happened, Larry Roberts said: "Monty shied away from anything with a tendency to buck him off." "The wild horse sale was always the Monday after the rodeo, not in the fall," said Irene Bramers McCallion, daughter of a former California Rodeo Association president. "To have bypassed the first part of the cruel stage of horse breaking is wonderful, but to most of us who know him, Monty has destroyed his credibility with this book." Perhaps no incident in Roberts' book upsets his family more than an event he claims to have witnessed one night in 1943 at the Golden Dragon, then generally regarded as trouble central in Salinas. According to Roberts, he watched, terrified, from inside a car as his father disarmed a knife-wielding black robber - Salinas had only a handful of black residents at that time - and then handcuffed the young man and proceeded to kick and beat him so badly that he died of his untreated injuries four days later. Larry Roberts, who said he was locked in the car with Monty at the time, told a different story. "A terrible fight was going on," he said. "My father stopped, and two guys had one guy down, and they were kicking him. He looked unconscious, bleeding from the mouth, hurt bad." The senior Roberts broke up the fight and had an ambulance called, he said. "I don't know how Monty converted this around to my dad beating this guy," he said. "All he did was roll him over and put something under his head." Monty Roberts said, "I know this happened. I was there. It was the most traumatic day of my life, and you don't forget that." Roberts said that a remark his father had made while acting as a bodyguard for then-heavyweight champion Joe Louis during a Salinas visit exemplified his racist attitude. Louis, he said, would sign autographs, then drop the paper onto the floor, so that autograph seekers had to pick them up. "The nigger in him had to come out, didn't it?" Marvin Roberts Sr. allegedly observed. Monty Roberts' letter to his family goes into great detail about his father's racism, a characterization the family insists is dead wrong, as evidenced by his lifelong friendships with many members of Salinas' small black community. Roberts' family and friends also scoff at his claims to have doubled or Elizabeth Taylor in the movie "National Velvet," as well as for other child stars while growing up as a precocious horseman. "Everything those kids (Monty and Larry) did was put into the paper (the Salinas Californian)," Renebome said. "Do you think that if Monty doubled for Elizabeth Taylor and been in "National Velvet' that Marguerite wouldn't have told them?" Roberts said he had worked on about 30 films, stunt riding for child stars in the early '40s, always with the second unit. "I saw a camera, but I hardly knew it was a movie," he said. "I remember my dad saying, "We're going to Mendocino County, and you're going to make the horse go over some jumps in a field.' We didn't know Elizabeth Taylor. Who had heard of her then? Nobody called the paper to say that Monty Roberts went to Mendocino County and jumped a horse over a fence." Elizabeth Taylor has always maintained that she did her own riding in "National Velvet," except for the actual steeplechase. Roberts probably has not heard the last of his hometown critics. Renebome has gathered several dozen testimonials for Marvin E. Roberts Sr. and is planning a memorial gathering for him March 1. Roberts said he was troubled by the hometown hostility his book had generated, but he said he was resigned to it and pointed to a precedent: "Salinas hated John Steinbeck," he said. From: IN%"D.Goodwin@soton.ac.uk" "debbie goodwin" 5-FEB-1998 05:29:00.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Postdoctoral Research Fellowship The Anthrozoology Institute at the University of Southampton (UK) is urgently seeking a Postdoctoral Research Fellow for a two-year project on the population dynamics of domestic cats, jointly supervised by Dr John Bradshaw (AzI Director) and Dr John Allen. The project aims to test the hypothesis that high levels of neutering among domestic cats enhance the reproductive success of feral and stray populations. Surveys will be taken of the numbers and health of kittens born in several areas which differ in the level of neutering, and the results will be used to construct a computer model to predict the effect of different levels of neutering on the population of unowned ("feral") cats under different estimates of migration rates, fecundity etc. Starting salary up to 16,927 pounds per year. To apply, send your CV (resume) to John Bradshaw by e-mail (jwsb@soton.ac.uk) or fax ((0)-1703-594269. AzI web site at http://www.soton.ac.uk/~azi/azi.htm ____________________________________________________________ From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 5-FEB-1998 13:43:23.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Matching Prey to Predator An current example of sentiment seeking proper combination with biology is (perhaps) the debate about hunting deer with hounds. Bateson has advanced a new pawn on the chess board of stale argument with his observations on damaging exertions by hunted deer. Proc R Soc Lond B Biol Sci 1997 Dec 22;264(1389):1707-1714 Physiological effects of hunting red deer. Bateson P, Bradshaw EL Sub-Department of Animal Behaviour, University of Cambridge, UK. [When red deer (Cervus elaphus) were hunted by humans with hounds the average distance travelled was at least 19 km......The effects on deer of long hunts were (i) depletion of carbohydrate resources for powering muscles, (ii) disruption of muscle tissue, and (iii) elevated secretion of beta-endorphin. High concentrations of cortisol, typically associated with extreme physiological and psychological stress, were found. ......the evidence suggests that red deer are not well-adapted by their evolutionary or individual history to cope with the level of activity imposed on them when hunted with hounds.] A public steeped in video footage of lazy lions breaking off their attacks when clearly fruitless, has been much taken with the idea that only cruel remorseless man would persevere for such a unconscionable time and distance in the pursuit. This view is unsettled by the videos of canids which have recently depicted African Wild Dogs running gnu for 70 kilometres and wolves harrying small bison herds for several days and nights. (whoops..could this be cruel?). But no!. The gnu regularly runs right across Africa and the bison would stampede up and down the prairie all the time. They are good at it. And the wild canids and horses and hounds presumably do not show damage after 19 kilometres. The key perhaps is in Prof. Bateson's phrase "not well adapted by their evolutionary history.." So just who was the deer's' natural predator? Could it have been Man afoot but armed with missile weapons? I f this was the case (is there a paleoanthropologist in the house?) then culling deer on foot with modern missiles is biologically correct by the common usage of many thousands of years of evolution. By the same token the well meaning introduction of the wolf into areas where its prey would be the red deer (the ambition of some in Scotland I believe) could be cruel! I have no position here and there is NO tone to this post. I think it illustrates that biology should inform sentiment. Professor Bateson's findings are under attack by fellow physiologists. This is a matter of biological exactitude. The setback to the sentimental view is matter of polemics among vested interests. I would appreciate positive correction of any misapprehensions I have ,prior to talking to the North Ledbury Hunt Supporters' club in two weeks. I am doing it as a favour to a friend and they know I am not in fact their supporter! The talk is about the urban fox as I know it and its impact on my cat patients. Someone is sure to raise general ethical issues and I will would like to be up to speed with all this. Let us have a discussion with some ethology in it. What? Robin From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 6-FEB-1998 03:54:25.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (Fwd) Matching Prey to Predator Robin et al. > [When red deer (Cervus elaphus) were hunted by humans with hounds the average distance travelled was at least 19 km......The effects on deer of long hunts were (i) depletion of carbohydrate resources for powering muscles, (ii) disruption of muscle tissue, and (iii) elevated secretion of beta-endorphin. High concentrations of cortisol, typically associated with extreme physiological and psychological stress, were found. ......the evidence suggests that red deer are not well-adapted by their evolutionary or individual history to cope with the level of activity imposed on them when hunted with hounds.] I was asked by the RSPCA to comment on the Bateson Report, having worked on both red deer and animal welfare. I found it convincing, in its combination of a considerable number of both physiological and behavioural measures. There were surprising elements, including the fact that the hunt took an average of 3h to cover 19km: I could do that myself at a stiff walk. But it seems that movement was episodic - a run of several kilometres at maximum speed, a pause during which recovery was incomplete or non-existent, followed by another run and so on. I would certainly find that exhausting myself. > The key perhaps is in Prof. Bateson's phrase "not well adapted by their evolutionary history.." So just who was the deer's' natural predator? Bateson argues - I'm sure correctly - that the main predator of deer was the wolf. He further argues that wolves do not pursue prey over many kilometres, but give up if they do not catch the prey quickly. I don't know whether that is true. Comments from wolf ethologists are needed here, rather than deer ethologists. Mike From: IN%"fentress@is.dal.ca" 6-FEB-1998 05:36:17.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" CC: Subj: RE: (Fwd) Matching Prey to Predator Interesting discussion on the deer. Perhaps Pat Bateson should be invited by someone to chat "on-line" (though he might prefer not to). I view his study as more like a detective story than "routine" science; i.e. 'a plausible case can be made that.........'. In animal welfare issues that can be an important stance. Much of the debate in such cases can depend upon our use of terms. For example, "pursuit" can refer to full fledged chases or the hunt that precedes these chases. Wolves often "trot" behind potential prey for hours, then sprint after a selected victim. In such cases its not a simple thing to document when the prey's stress begins. In any case the wolf's "sprint" can last quite a while (multiple minutes rather than seconds), and they do (sometimes) renew their sprints after resuming a period of trotting, etc. Wolf endurance is quite remarkable. They can pursue prey with a fast trot (but not full sprint) for hours. For those interested David Mech's group has written quite a bit on this, with popular articles in National Geographic, etc. Whatever wolves do, it is debatable whether we want to use them as a model for human ethics. (I doubt whether they would like to model themselves on us either!) Anyway, I am glad to see the issues - on all sides - raised. John Fentress John C. Fentress, Ph.D. Departments of Psychology & Neuroscience Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia CANADA B3H 4J1 lab: 902 494-3603 fax: 902 494-6585 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 6-FEB-1998 07:09:46.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: FW: (Fwd) Matching Prey to Predator Dear John, Excellent! Clearly the natural process is not replicated by the Hunt. The hounds by themselves without the powerful evoking stimuli of the cries, horns and general hullabaloo would probably run a bit, trot a bit, tree cats or hunt rabbits and the deer would watch and run within much more normal limits. Ethically Man perhaps ought to evolve beyond the hedonic activities of yore. The opportunities for entertainment in the modern world are more than adequate. The modelling of ethics seems fairly clear. I think the slaughterman should dispatch my lunch more swiftly than the lion or the wolf. My clients expect me to cull my pet population without first chasing them around the clinic for a spot of sport. Should be an agreeably noisy meeting. I promise not to pursue them further than the carpark! Robin -----Original Message----- From: John Fentress [SMTP:fentress@is.dal.ca] Sent: 06 February 1998 07:39 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca; Mike Appleby Subject: Re: (Fwd) Matching Prey to Predator Much of the debate in such cases can depend upon our use of terms. For example, "pursuit" can refer to full fledged chases or the hunt that precedes these chases. Wolves often "trot" behind potential prey for hours, then sprint after a selected victim. In such cases its not a simple thing to document when the prey's stress begins. In any case the wolf's "sprint" can last quite a while (multiple minutes rather than seconds), and they do (sometimes) renew their sprints after resuming a period of trotting, etc. Wolf endurance is quite remarkable. They can pursue prey with a fast trot (but not full sprint) for hours. For those interested David Mech's group has written quite a bit on this, with popular articles in National Geographic, etc. Anyway, I am glad to see the issues - on all sides - raised. John Fentress John C. Fentress, Ph.D. Departments of Psychology & Neuroscience Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia CANADA B3H 4J1 lab: 902 494-3603 fax: 902 494-6585 From: IN%"PLXCMLN@pln1.life.nottingham.ac.uk" "CHARLOTTE.M.L.NEVISON" 6-FEB-1998 07:11:38.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: (Fwd) Matching Prey to Predator Hi, Regarding the discussion on Pat Bateson's work; I was chatting to a journalist earlier on in the week and he said that in a recent (current?) issue of The Veterinary Record a joint letter had been published from Pat Bateson and a member of the pro-hunting lobby in which (in the opinion of the journalist) de-valued the work somewhat. Did any of the vets out there see this letter? I do not have immediate access to this journal to check out the substance of this comment, but it seems relevant to this discussion. If it is true, I would like to know why Pat Bateson felt it necessary to do this. I saw a good talk on the study at the Winter ASAB Meeting, and was impressed by the study and its results. Thanks for starting us off again Robin. If someone can fill in the information to my speculation I would be grateful. Apologies if any of this information turns out to be false, I am passing on someone elses opinion in the hope of gaining the info to make my own judgement. I shall also follow it up off-line. Regards, Charlotte. Charlotte M.L. Nevison Behaviour and Ecology Research Group, Dept. of Life Sciences, University Park, Nottingham, NG7 2RD. Tel: (0115) 9436882 From: IN%"rhb11@hermes.cam.ac.uk" 6-FEB-1998 07:49:57.17 To: IN%"PLXCMLN@pln1.life.nottingham.ac.uk" "CHARLOTTE.M.L.NEVISON" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: (Fwd) Vet Rec letter >Regarding the discussion on Pat Bateson's work; I was chatting to a >journalist earlier on in the week and he said that in a recent >(current?) issue of The Veterinary Record a joint letter had been published >from Pat Bateson and a member of the pro-hunting lobby in which (in the >opinion of the journalist) de-valued the work somewhat. > >Did any of the vets out there see this letter? Yes, the letter does exist. Veterinary Record 142 (4) p 95 [January 24 1998]. It is authored by Pat Bateson [Sub-Department of Animal Behaviour, Madingley, University of Cambridge] who, as we all know, wrote the report to the National Trust [and has published findings in the Proc. Roy. Soc. with Liz Bradshaw] and Doug Wise [Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, Madingley Road, University of Cambridge] who appears to remain to be convinced of all the findings reported. So it appears they've put their heads together to find a constructive way forward. As ever, Harry Bradshaw Dr R. H. Bradshaw, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge, Madingley Road, Cambridge CB3 OES, UK. From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 6-FEB-1998 08:02:35.27 To: IN%"PLXCMLN@pln1.life.nottingham.ac.uk" "CHARLOTTE.M.L.NEVISON" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: (Fwd) Matching Prey to Predator There was a letter from Professor Bateson in the Times today stating that he still believes that his evidence proves hunting with hounds causes more suffering than culling by marksmen. The argument seems mainly to be about what constitutes absolute proof. ---------------------------------------- My opinions are my own Rosemary Rodd 01223 335029 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 6-FEB-1998 08:38:26.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinary Record correspondence. Dear Charlotte, A dignified letter appears in the Veterinary Record on January 24, 1998 Vol 142, No 4 p 95 authored by both Patrick Bateson and Douglas Wise (the latter being opposed to aspects of the work in question).vide Wise D 1997, Hunting 5, 58 The letter outlines the need for further scholarly work on the issues of muscle and blood damage in severely stressed deer. The Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail took up the letter and have I think, tried to devalue the arguments of Bateson. Sadly the Mail has been piddled on by a patient and the Telegraph was retrieved by an embarrassed newsagent who replaced it with the Guardian. I will illegally e-mail you a copy of the Vet.Rec. Letter if you like! Robin. -----Original Message----- From: CHARLOTTE.M.L.NEVISON [SMTP:PLXCMLN@pln1.life.nottingham.ac.uk] Sent: 06 February 1998 13:05 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: (Fwd) Matching Prey to Predator Hi, Regarding the discussion on Pat Bateson's work; I was chatting to a journalist earlier on in the week and he said that in a recent (current?) issue of The Veterinary Record a joint letter had been published from Pat Bateson and a member of the pro-hunting lobby in which (in the opinion of the journalist) de-valued the work somewhat. Did any of the vets out there see this letter? I do not have immediate access to this journal to check out the substance of this comment, but it seems relevant to this discussion. If it is true, I would like to know why Pat Bateson felt it necessary to do this. I saw a good talk on the study at the Winter ASAB Meeting, and was impressed by the study and its results. Thanks for starting us off again Robin. If someone can fill in the information to my speculation I would be grateful. Apologies if any of this information turns out to be false, I am passing on someone elses opinion in the hope of gaining the info to make my own judgement. I shall also follow it up off-line. Regards, Charlotte. Charlotte M.L. Nevison Behaviour and Ecology Research Group, Dept. of Life Sciences, University Park, Nottingham, NG7 2RD. Tel: (0115) 9436882 From: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk" "Hans Erhard" 6-FEB-1998 10:45:52.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)", IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: Subj: RE: hunting Hi everyone, I don't feel very comfortable joining this debate about hunting, because I'm not sure I can contribute something that hasn' t been said before, but I'll do it anyway. One question I would like to ask is: Does it actually matter what wolves do to deer? I think that the argument "wolves chase deer" doesn't lead anywhere. Of course it's natural to chase deer. For wolves, that is. They also do it on their four feet, and eat the meat raw. How does that affect what we (humans) do? The question of what is "natural" and what isn't, is very difficult to answer even within a species, but can we answer it across species? And can we use it as a basis for moral decisions? I do not think so. The second question concerns the effect the recent findings had in the media. I only ever saw a video about a hunt, and it was rather obvious to me that the deer (or fox) did not have any fun during the hunt. But even without a video, wouldn't reason alone lead us to the conclusion that animals want to stay alive? And that as a consequence they must find being chased utterly unpleasant? Do we really need to take blood samples for that? Hans Erhard *************************************************** ____________________________________ Macaulay Land Use Research Institute Craigiebuckler Aberdeen AB15 8QH Tel.: 01224 - 318611 Fax.: 01224 - 311556 email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk From: IN%"christine.paproski@agric.gov.ab.ca" 6-FEB-1998 11:27:29.14 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction Hello! I am a recent University of Alberta Animal Science graduate. I am currently working with the government but hope to be starting an MSc in Animal Welfare soon. I also want to complete a PhD. I am enjoying being a part of this network; it is a great way to gain exposure to various issues and opinions. Christine Paproski From: IN%"jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" "JANICE SWANSON" 6-FEB-1998 11:31:11.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: hunting I think Hans makes an interesting observation. In the U.S. the use of dogs for hunting deer and bears has drawn attention and legislative actions. The public rhetoric is focused on the strategies used to hunt and the impression that the hunted are at a distinct disadvantage - - two different species of predators that can combine different talents to achieve an unfair advantage. People (animal protectionists and concerned public) regard this as unnatural versus the wolf pack scenario or even the one man one gun. You are really examining the hunting behavior/strategies of humans and the ethics surrounding the conduct of what the public defines as a fair hunt (this assumes that hunting conducted by humans is considered acceptable). Janice Swanson > Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 16:47:59 +0000 > From: Hans Erhard > Subject: Re: hunting > To: "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" , > Robin Walker > Organization: mluri > Priority: normal > Hi everyone, > I don't feel very comfortable joining this debate about hunting, > because I'm not sure I can contribute something that hasn' t been > said before, but I'll do it anyway. > > One question I would like to ask is: > Does it actually matter what wolves do to deer? I think that the > argument "wolves chase deer" doesn't lead anywhere. Of course > it's natural to chase deer. For wolves, that is. They also do > it on their four feet, and eat the meat raw. How does that > affect what we (humans) do? The question of what is "natural" and > what isn't, is very difficult to answer even within a species, but > can we answer it across species? And can we use it as a basis for > moral decisions? I do not think so. > > The second question concerns the effect the recent findings had in > the media. I only ever saw a video about a hunt, and it was rather > obvious to me that the deer (or fox) did not have any fun during the > hunt. But even without a video, wouldn't reason alone lead us to > the conclusion that animals want to stay alive? And that as a > consequence they must find being chased utterly unpleasant? > Do we really need to take blood samples for that? > > Hans Erhard > > *************************************************** > ____________________________________ > Macaulay Land Use Research Institute > Craigiebuckler > Aberdeen AB15 8QH > Tel.: 01224 - 318611 > Fax.: 01224 - 311556 > email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk > From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 7-FEB-1998 11:58:30.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology Network'" CC: Subj: Address - Ed Pajor Anybody have Ed Pajor's address. Ed, are you there? I sent something to Ottawa and it was returned. Thanks. Ed Price eoprice@ucdavis.edu From: IN%"Dickomeit@stud.vetmed.uni-muenchen.de" 9-FEB-1998 06:52:57.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction Howzit! I am presently studying veterinary science (4th year) at the Ludwig Maximillian University Munich-Germany. I am very much interested in hearing about new and differnt opinions on the subject of applied ethology, especially problems and ideas concerning the field of vet. med.. Glad to be with you. Mark Dickomeit From: IN%"Horst@stud.vetmed.uni-muenchen.de" 9-FEB-1998 06:53:58.73 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hallo Hallo everybody, My name is Christoph von Horst and I am studying veterinary medicine in the 7 th Semester at the Ludwig Maximilian University Munich / Germany. I am very much interested in all subjects concerning ethology, especially as far as veterinary problems are involved. Looking forward to having discussions with you. Christoph von Horst From: IN%"J.Eddison@plymouth.ac.uk" "J Eddison" 9-FEB-1998 09:29:54.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE Newsletter To all ISAE Members, The Spring issue of the ISAE Newsletter is due to be published in March. The deadline for copy to reach me is the end of February. For those of you who are not ISAE members, you could receive a copy of the Newsletter by joining the society (membership secretary: Mark Rutter at: isae.membership@bbsrc.ac.uk). I am happy to receive letters (on paper, in envelopes with attached postage stamp), faxes and email (with or without attachments in Word or WordPerfect). Fax: +44 (0)1626325605 email: jeddison@plymouth.ac.uk Thanks in advance, John Eddison ISAE Communications Officer & Newsletter Editor From: IN%"nick.green@bbc.co.uk" 9-FEB-1998 13:40:54.08 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: BBC TV Series I am just wondering whether anyone can help me. I am trying to do a bit of virtual natural history speculation for a TV series on Dinosaurs and I wonder if anyone has any thoughts about a particular problem I have at the moment. I am trying to figure out what would happen to a group of the same species of predatory animals in a certain situation. We are trying to find predict what sort of behaviour they would undergo if conditions were getting more extreme, and they started gathering around a drying waterhole / river. I am trying to find a model where the animals would start functioning as a group to get at prey that under normal circumstances they would not try for (the prey being too big). Not that they would coordinate necessarily, but perhaps they would use group power to benefit all. Does a system like this exist in the vertebrate world today? I would really appreciate any help with this. Apologies for the bizarre nature of this! Regards, Nick Green. nick.green@bbc.co.uk From: IN%"csunsay@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu" "Ceyhun Sunsay" 9-FEB-1998 17:14:27.31 To: IN%"nick.green@bbc.co.uk" "Nick Green-SCIENCE" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology'" Subj: RE: BBC TV Series Maybe optimal foraging theory can help of you. The model predicts that animals use their resources economically. They optimize their behaviors to get food. Optimization is a popular theory both for foraging behavior and prey-predator relationship. If you can search some keywords about behavioral ecology, ethology you can get more information more than I can supply. These keywords are: behavioral ecology,optimization, optimal foraging. There are some books about this issue. I can provide their names if you want. Good luck! On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Nick Green-SCIENCE wrote: > > I am just wondering whether anyone can help me. I am trying to do a bit > of virtual natural history speculation for a TV series on Dinosaurs and I > wonder if anyone has any thoughts about a particular problem I have at > the moment. I am trying to figure out what would happen to a group of the > same species of predatory animals in a certain situation. We are trying > to find predict what sort of behaviour they would undergo if conditions > were getting more extreme, and they started gathering around a drying > waterhole / river. I am trying to find a model where the animals would > start functioning as a group to get at prey that under normal > circumstances they would not try for (the prey being too big). Not that > they would coordinate necessarily, but perhaps they would use group power > to benefit all. Does a system like this exist in the vertebrate world > today? > > I would really appreciate any help with this. Apologies for the bizarre > nature of this! > > Regards, Nick Green. > nick.green@bbc.co.uk > > From: IN%"yu104724@yorku.ca" "Benoit Victor Tardif" 9-FEB-1998 18:41:05.67 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: The evolution of amimal behavior Hello members, Presently I am taking a course called "The evolution of animal behavior", a course that is both a Natural Science course; as well as a crosslisted Psychology course. I was performing a netsearch and came accross this excellent program, and wish to "bug" some of you with some questions if you have the time to answer them. The first is a quote, which I'm sure some of you will find fascinating: "the chicken is merly the egg's way of creating another egg". Does anyone have any thoughts on this.. if yes, let me hear them.. Now, that was just for fun.. But, on a serious note, I'm having trouble with some of my research and seeing that some of you are "experts", I would be more then interested to hear any kind of reply that you may be able to share. I have a few questions that I hope some of you will take the time to answer and I appreciate any of your answers imensily. 1) Give two reasons why it is difficult to study the evolutionary history of behavior (about animals). Given these difficulties, explain what is and why researchers use the comparative approach. 2) How does "adaptiveness" contribute to a species survival. What are the disadvantages of "maladaptive" behavior. Why does maladaptive behavior occur? And how does maladaptive behavior make sense given evolutionary theories? I thank you for your time to anyone who takes the time to answer my questions. And hope to hear from many other questions in the near future sent to me. Happy studies.. Benoit From: IN%"j.durrell@qub.ac.uk" 10-FEB-1998 06:00:35.79 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Bedding for sows Does anyone out there know of any work carried out with pigs involving providing mats as an alternative to bare concrete or substrate bedding? I'm particularly interested in work involving sows, especially group housed pregnant sows. Thanks. Julie Durrell (PhD Student) School of Psychology, Queen's University of Belfast & A.R.I.N.I., Hillsborough, Co. Down. From: IN%"marcvdh@stat.fmv.ulg.ac.be" "Marc Vandenheede" 10-FEB-1998 07:57:01.86 To: IN%"filip.mulkens@agr.kuleuven.ac.be", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"schwartzkopf@sask.usask.ca", IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: new email Please note my new email: marcvdh@stat.fmv.ulg.ac.be Thank you Marc Vandenheede Universite de Liege Faculte de Medecine Veterinaire Bd de Colonster, Bat. B43 4000 Liege Belgium Tel: 32/(0)4/366.41.48 Fax: 32/(0)4/366.41.22 From: IN%"theix.inst-elevage@wanadoo.fr" "Institut de l'Elevage - Antenne de Theix" 10-FEB-1998 09:29:47.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Need some information on transport. I am looking for some references, reords about losses (%, ..) in beef cattle due to the stress of transport. Thanks for answering From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" 10-FEB-1998 09:44:17.92 To: IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu" "Ted Friend" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Monty Roberts On Wed, 04 Feb 1998 17:39:22 -0600 Ted Friend wrote: > From: Ted Friend > Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 17:39:22 -0600 > Subject: Monty Roberts > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Here is an article some of you may find interesting - a different > perspective on Monty Roberts. I don't recall seeing it on this net before > or much discussion about Monty Roberts. > > Ted Friend > > > > San Francisco Examiner Article: January 11, 1997 > > BIOGRAPHY CALLED UNBRIDLED FICTION > But horseman defends book that claims his father was a killer > > by Eric Brazil OF THE EXAMINER STAFF > > With the international success of "The Man Who Listens to Horses," > his autobiography, Monty Roberts has become world's most famous > horse trainer and the best-known writer reared in Salinas since John > Steinbeck. > > If only he had not accused his father of child abuse, homicide, > racism and cruelty to animals, Roberts' family and old friends say > they would have shrugged off what they regard as his self-promoting, > vainglorious resume inflation and watched his legend grow. > > Instead, angry and insulted, they are denouncing his book as a > mean-spirited hit piece that gratuitously defames the reputation of > a good man and fictionalizes pivotal moments of Roberts' early life > for dramatic effect. > > Roberts, 62, has deciphered the body language of horses. He calls > it Equus. Employing it, he has amazed skeptical audiences around the > world. In 30 minutes, he has unbroken colts saddled, bridled and > ridden, and spoiled or dangerous horses gentled and tractable. > > While some thoroughbred trainers scoff at Roberts' technique as a > gimmick, Britain's Queen Elizabeth was so impressed at a 1989 command > performance at Windsor Castle that Roberts' easy-does-it method is > incorporated in all royal British equine training. > > Not since Alexander the Great tamed the wild stallion Bucephalus by > turning his head away from the sun so that he was no longer > frightened of his shadow has a horse trainer won such notoriety. > > Roberts has made "horse breaking" and "bronco busting" obsolete. > "I've discovered that horses are trying to tell us that you haven't > needed for 6,000 years to enslave us. You haven't needed to bash us > into submission," he said in an interview at his Flag Is Up Farm in > Solvang, Santa Barbara County, an elegant, 186-acre thoroughbred > breeding, training and boarding operation. Effective communication > makes horses docile, willing partners, he said. > > Roberts' book has been on the New York Times bestseller list for 21 > weeks and is in its 17th printing, with more than 600,000 copies sold > in the United States. First published in Britain, where it also was a > bestseller, "The Man Who Listens to Horses" has been translated into > French, German and Dutch. > > "His technique and his method stand on their own merits, and Monty > should let it go at that," said his aunt Joyce Renebome of Galt, > Sacramento County, who is just six months older than Roberts and had > a sisterly relationship with him during their childhood. "Some of the > things he says in his book are absolutely ludicrous." > > "This is killing me," said Roberts' brother, Larry, 61, of Ukiah. > "It's killing our whole family. I can't understand why he had to > write that stuff. It didn't happen, but how do you prove it didn't > happen?" > > Roberts says he was motivated to study equine psychology and devise > a benign method of starting horses in reaction to his father's > brutality to horses and himself. Both claims are false, Roberts' > critics assert. > > Worse, they say, is his charge that the elder Roberts beat a black > soldier to death, with a horrified Monty looking on. > > And they contend that the dramatic 15-page opening section of his > book, in which Roberts describes beginning to figure out horse > language at age 13, alone in the Nevada desert, gathering mustangs > for Salinas' big California Rodeo and watching a dun mare discipline > an obstreperous colt, is sheer fiction. > > THE FAMILY HAS GONE BALLISTIC > > Roberts is a confident and competitive man who has had conspicuous > success in a high-pressure business, buying, selling and training > thoroughbreds. His horses have won more than 200 stakes races, > including the Santa Anita Derby and the Arc d'Triomphe in Paris > twice. > > As a younger man, he won multiple national championships riding some > renowned cow horses - Johnny Tivio, Night Mist and Fiddle d'Or. He > says the critics are uninformed and talking nonsense. > > "The family has gone ballistic, and they think they know exactly how > I lived and that they know all about me," Roberts said. > > "What I put in the book can be argued about and can be twisted and > tweaked, but the things about my family are so crystal clear in my > mind that there's no chance I'm appreciably off." > > As for the Nevada wild horse episode, in which he portrays himself > as the leader and instigator of the roundup, he conceded in an > interview that he was just part of a team on which he was the only > nonadult. "If I've made myself too much for the reader to bear as the > center of all that, it's only because the author puts himself in the > center," he said. Nevertheless, "it was the most pivotal experience > of my life." > > His critics' distress over the book comes against a background of > the high regard, bordering on reverence, in which his father, Marvin > E. Roberts Sr., was held in Salinas. > > For almost 50 years, the elder Roberts, who died at age 77 in 1985, > taught the sons and daughters of Salinas' elite - growers, shippers > and professionals - how to ride horses. For generations of riders, > Roberts and his wife, Marguerite, were great teachers who personified > the spirit of the 87-year-old California Rodeo, then as now Salinas' > signature event. The rodeo arena at the Monterey County Sheriff's > Posse grounds is named for him. > > Between 1941 and 1947, the elder Roberts also was a Salinas police > officer, attaining the rank of lieutenant. He was the friendly cop > who advised elementary school traffic patrols around the city. > > The younger Roberts writes that he was hospitalized at age 7 after > being beaten with a chain by his father for defying his brutal horse > breaking instructions and demonstrating his gentle method of "joining > up" with a green horse. > > "The beatings continued weekly for three more years before finally > starting to taper off when I was ten," he writes in the book. "Only > when I was fifteen did they cease altogether." > > In a 16-page, single-spaced letter to relatives, Roberts said the > beatings were worse than described in the book. One beating, with a > polo mallet, evidently fractured his spine in several places and > destroyed an adrenal gland, he said. > > "I blame him for overt violence toward me - all out dangerous > violence. I had dozens of bones broken before puberty," Roberts said > during the Solvang interview. That violence provided impetus for > developing his own method of starting horses. His mother knew of the > beatings but told no one and instructed him to tell the doctors who > treated him that he had been bucked off and dragged, Roberts said. > > NO SIGN OF ABUSE > > "There's no way in hell that happened," said Larry Roberts, a former > professional rodeo rider, youth counselor, pilot and horse trainer. > "We slept in the same room, and I think I would've known. My dad was > never violent with horses or with us." Besides, he said, "my mother > ruled the roost. She never would have stood for it." > > Salinas businesswoman Jackie Felman Daly boarded her horse at the > Robertses' stables for several years and "was out there every morning > at daybreak, and I would've been aware of what was going on if Monty > was being beaten. I saw him all the time. Marvin never hurt Monty. > What he's saying is just a farce. Most of that book is fiction." > > "Monty's a good hand with a horse, and he does a good job, and he > Didn't need to do this," said his uncle Jim Martins of Salinas. > "Monty felt he was so above everyone else, but the reason he got > there was from his mom and dad. For him to degrade them like this is > just not right," said Roberts' childhood friend Dick Gillott, a > Constant visitor at the Robertses' stables and at their house during > the wartime years. "I never saw him limping around or acting hurt. I > would've remembered something like that." > > Roberts said that the phenomenon of fatherly violence directed at an > elder son and the mother's complicity in keeping the abuse quiet was > common and that he had been a victim of it. "I was too frightened to > discuss this with anybody," he said. > > Renebome said, "I think Monty wanted to establish himself as an > expert on child abuse as well as an expert in training animals, so > he had to establish himself as an abused child." > > Roberts said that when the worst beatings occurred, during World > War II, "my father had lost his livelihood and his place of business, > and we were living in a little house in town. He had a lot of > aspirations he wasn't able to fulfill, and he wanted me to do those > things. I did become those things, but not exactly the way he wanted > them done." > > In his book, Roberts describes in detail how he was commissioned in > June 1948 by the late Dr. E.J. Leach, then-financial secretary of > the California Rodeo Association, to go to Nevada and round up horses > for the rodeo's wild horse race, the pivotal experience of his > adolescence. > > The British edition of the book identifies his companions as brother > Larry and friends Gillott and Tony Vargas. In the American edition, > he switches to a Salinas man and wife, Ralph and Vivian Carter, now > deceased. > > "We never went," Vargas said. "I don't know where he got this. I > can't believe some of the stories he's told." > > Gillott said, "There's no validity in that all. Everybody would've > known about that if I went there." > > Roberts said that "subsequent to the U.K. version, I was reminded > by two different people that it was actually Ralph and Vivian. . . I > just tried to set the record straight by putting the right people in > the right trip." > > California Rodeo records contain no mention of a wild horse gathering > trip by the Carters or Roberts in 1948. The rodeo was held June 17 to > 21 that year, and the late Ki Silacci, arena director - not Leach - > was in charge of the wild horse race. > > "Monty was an honor student at Sacred Heart. He would've been in > school when they went to get the horses," Renebome said. Besides, > "Marvin and Marguerite would never have let him go." > > THE WAY WRITERS DO IT > > Roberts responded that "all I've said is that Doc Leach put together > a team (to gather wild horses), and I was part of it. "It was the > most pivotal experience of my life, and I went to learn about > communicating with horses," he said. "I'm not going to change > anything. Maybe I wasn't really the center of this expedition, but > that's the way writers do it." > > Roberts provided conclusive proof of his ability to "join up" with a > wild horse in the wide open spaces last March in the Cuyama Valley. A > British Broadcasting Corp. crew caught the whole adventure on film. > > "I did the same thing in 1952," he said. "It went exactly the way I > said it would go, and everyone said it was impossible. Here I am at > 62, doing it all over again." > > Roberts also said that he and brother Larry had broken dozens of the > wild horses after the 1948 rodeo, which fetched a higher than usual > price at the post-rodeo sale in the fall. > > Never happened, Larry Roberts said: "Monty shied away from anything > with a tendency to buck him off." > > "The wild horse sale was always the Monday after the rodeo, not in > the fall," said Irene Bramers McCallion, daughter of a former > California Rodeo Association president. "To have bypassed the first > part of the cruel stage of horse breaking is wonderful, but to most > of us who know him, Monty has destroyed his credibility with this > book." > > Perhaps no incident in Roberts' book upsets his family more than an > event he claims to have witnessed one night in 1943 at the Golden > Dragon, then generally regarded as trouble central in Salinas. > > According to Roberts, he watched, terrified, from inside a car as his > father disarmed a knife-wielding black robber - Salinas had only a > handful of black residents at that time - and then handcuffed the > young man and proceeded to kick and beat him so badly that he > died of his untreated injuries four days later. > > Larry Roberts, who said he was locked in the car with Monty at the > time, told a different story. > > "A terrible fight was going on," he said. "My father stopped, and two > guys had one guy down, and they were kicking him. He looked > unconscious, bleeding from the mouth, hurt bad." The senior Roberts > broke up the fight and had an ambulance called, he said. "I don't > know how Monty converted this around to my dad beating this guy," > he said. "All he did was roll him over and put something under his > head." > > Monty Roberts said, "I know this happened. I was there. It was the > most traumatic day of my life, and you don't forget that." > > Roberts said that a remark his father had made while acting as a > bodyguard for then-heavyweight champion Joe Louis during a Salinas > visit exemplified his racist attitude. > > Louis, he said, would sign autographs, then drop the paper onto the > floor, so that autograph seekers had to pick them up. "The nigger in > him had to come out, didn't it?" Marvin Roberts Sr. allegedly > observed. > > Monty Roberts' letter to his family goes into great detail about his > father's racism, a characterization the family insists is dead wrong, > as evidenced by his lifelong friendships with many members of > Salinas' small black community. > > Roberts' family and friends also scoff at his claims to have doubled > or Elizabeth Taylor in the movie "National Velvet," as well as for > other child stars while growing up as a precocious horseman. > > "Everything those kids (Monty and Larry) did was put into the paper > (the Salinas Californian)," Renebome said. "Do you think that if > Monty doubled for Elizabeth Taylor and been in "National Velvet' > that Marguerite wouldn't have told them?" > > Roberts said he had worked on about 30 films, stunt riding for child > stars in the early '40s, always with the second unit. > > "I saw a camera, but I hardly knew it was a movie," he said. "I > remember my dad saying, "We're going to Mendocino County, and you're > going to make the horse go over some jumps in a field.' We didn't > know Elizabeth Taylor. Who had heard of her then? Nobody called the > paper to say that Monty Roberts went to Mendocino County and jumped a > horse over a fence." > > Elizabeth Taylor has always maintained that she did her own riding in > "National Velvet," except for the actual steeplechase. > > Roberts probably has not heard the last of his hometown critics. > Renebome has gathered several dozen testimonials for Marvin E. > Roberts Sr. and is planning a memorial gathering for him March 1. > > Roberts said he was troubled by the hometown hostility his book had > generated, but he said he was resigned to it and pointed to a > precedent: "Salinas hated John Steinbeck," he said. **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 Dear Ted, Yes thanks for the information on articles about Monty Roberts. I think he is not perhaps in the same class as Steinbeck ( whom he apparently compares himself with!), in terms of his contribution to homo sapiens, but he is a very good performer in public and he does have very good PR! Trouble with his family is another side one did not know about and perhap,s as far as his horse training is concerned, is not very relevant. As I am and have been in the same fiedl as Monty since before he became so famou:, that of improving horse education, I think a little clarity is in order, particularly on a group net such as this where I find eulogies out of place. In the first place unlike the European school of equitation which has been going for a good 2000 years ( Xenaphone published in 350BC and was talking about the importance of understanding rather than dominating horses) the US Rodeo school has had a very different approach based it seems largely on Male cahuvenistic and overcoming nature ..... dominate it by fair means or foul. There may be various reasons for this, but it is not surprising that coming from this school of riding which Monty does, and demonstrating a more cooperative approach, he is seen by the US west originally as a great innovator. However, let us get the record straight, the great masters of equititation through europe : Decapentry, Fillis, Pojansky and most liberty horse trainers for the last 200 years and many many more have all used the same type of approach as Monty Roberts uses, although they have not had such good PR and may not have been such good performers in front of audiences ( eg: Wright from Australia, Perelli, Gentilli, Rees, and even myself) . Many of them as well as many others in the last few decades have developed a great deal more sophisticated communication systems than Monty demonstrates. I particularly feel for Lucy Rees who 10 years before Monty Roberts was heard of did a TV film in which she bet a cowboy she could train a wild mustang quicker than him and he would be more reliable thereafter. The film showed the 2 mustangs teaching: one being typically trained by the cowboy throwing things over it, tying it up and generally terrifying it, the other Lucy sitting reading a book until the mustang came to her. The last sequence was Lucy riding the mustang in a head collar up a river bed in the sunset quitely singing, while the cowboy had given up due to various excuses! Lucy's approach is one that has been used for many years by the majority of horse teachers in Britain anyway, although not thoroughbred trainers, but she did not have the same PR and was not invited to see the queen! The TV film where Monty chased a wild mustang to ride is particularly surprising. This horse was chased for, they say 100 miles ( I am sure it was not this long because it is unlikely that he would have been fit enough to travel this far, either Monty or the horse!) before the horse was finally, in an exhausted state away from his home ground and other horses backed and lead off by one of the other riders. Now what is special about that, it seems it is certainly worth a little welfare consideration. Is there anyone who considers themselves to be remotely a horse teacher who would not be able to do this I wonder ??? This may have been all for the TV but to quote it in his own defense is a little outrageous. Monty has done a great job in putting some rather well known ideas across to the general public, but even the horse owning public are surely not so humble as to consider that all is new, or even very much of it is at all new. What I do find not acceptable is when he give advise on horse behaviour problems without trying to find out the cause and consequently helping the owner not have the problem again, but rather just fixing the horse while he is there, and being applauded, this I dont think will do I recently was asked to teach at the" Monty Roberts course" at an agricultural college here in UK, and found some of the practical teaching going on there extraordinary, and certainly not geared to relaxing and cooperating with the horses. It may be that Monty, if he had been there, would have disapproved too, or may be not. There is no doubt that his success has had an effect on some people teaching their horses and may have helped their horses, and we must applaud this, but little is either novel or by any means as developed as it could be, and his advise on behavioural problems is not geared generally to the long term improvement of the horses or reducing the occurance of the problems in the future. Marthe Kiley-Worthington. ************************************** From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 10-FEB-1998 10:34:32.91 To: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Monty Roberts Thanks Marthe for those wise comments. Now, I wanted to make a print-out of Marthe's message but one line out of two is left out. Can some e-mail specialist out there explain me why and what I should do? Maybe an incompatibility between different systems? Thank you! Prof.Dr. Frank O. Odberg University of Ghent Dpt. of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke Belgium tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: 7849 From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 10-FEB-1998 18:24:22.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ISAE" CC: Subj: Cattle sexual behaviour This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_A59j1pS4xLLPo21vF//rwQ) Content-type: text/plain Hi All, When I asked for information on this topic several people contacted me to ask me to tell them what I found out and suggested I should let all on the network know. Ed Price was able to provide me with some information (see attachment) but it looks as if there's not much information out there. If anybody does have more information on the sexual behaviour of bovids in rangeland situations, please contact me. Many thanks Carol <> --Boundary_(ID_A59j1pS4xLLPo21vF//rwQ) Content-type: application/msword; name="CATTLSEX.DOC" Content-disposition: attachment; filename="CATTLSEX.DOC" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAA EAAAAgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////9 ////CQAAAP7///8EAAAABQAAAAYAAAAHAAAACAAAAAoAAAD+////CwAAAP7///8NAAAADgAAAA8A AAAQAAAAEQAAABIAAAATAAAAFAAAABUAAAD+//////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////1IA bwBvAHQAIABFAG4AdAByAHkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAWAAUA//////////8DAAAAAAkCAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAED0Bpd5Nr0B AwAAAIAOAAAAAAAAAQBDAG8AbQBwAE8AYgBqAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABIAAgH///////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAbgAAAAAAAABXAG8AcgBkAEQAbwBjAHUAbQBlAG4AdAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGgACAf////8EAAAA/////wAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwAAABSEwAAAAAAAE8AYgBqAGUAYwB0AFAAbwBv AGwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWAAEBAQAAAAIA AAD/////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADA/JKWeTa9AcD8kpZ5Nr0BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAA AP7///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////LgAAAC8AAAAwAAAAMQAAADIAAAAzAAAANAAAADUAAAA2AAAANwAAADgAAAA5AAAA/v// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8BAP7/ AwoAAP////8ACQIAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGHAAAAE1pY3Jvc29mdCBXb3JkIDYuMCBEb2N1bWVudAAK AAAATVNXb3JkRG9jABAAAABXb3JkLkRvY3VtZW50LjYA9DmycQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAABwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcH BwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcH BwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcH BwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHGAAA gAAAAAAwAAAAJQAAAAsAAAAHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHBwcHB0RlYXIgQ2Fyb2w6ICAgSSBhbSBu b3QgYXdhcmUgb2YgdmVyeSBtdWNoIG9uIHRoaXMgc3ViamVjdCBpbiB0aGUgbGl0ZXJhdHVyZS4N IEl0IGlzIGtub3duIHRoYXQgYnVsbHMgYXJlIGF0dHJhY3RlZCB0byBzZXh1YWxseSBhY3RpdmUg Z3JvdXBzIG9mIGZlbWFsZXMNZnJvbSBhIGRpc3RhbmNlLiAgSSBzdXNwZWN0IGRpc3RhbmNlIHdp bGwgdmFyeSBkZXBlbmRpbmcgb24gdG9wb2dyYXBoaWNhbA1mZWF0dXJlcyBhbmQgZGVuc2l0eSBv ZiB2ZWdldGF0aW9uLiAgQ293cyB3aWxsIHNlZWsgb3V0IGJ1bGxzIGJ1dCBub3QgdG8gdGhlDXNh bWUgZGVncmVlIGFzIGV3ZXMgc2VlayBvdXQgcmFtcy4NDUkgcmVjb21tZW5kIHRocmVlIHBhcGVy czoNDUJsb2NrZXksIE0uQS4gZGUgQi4gMTk3OS4gIE9ic2VydmF0aW9ucyBvbiBncm91cCBtYXRp bmcgb2YgYnVsbHMgYXQgcGFzdHVyZS4NIEFwcGwuIEFuaW0uIEV0aG9sLiA1OjE1LQ0NS2lsZ291 ciwgUi4gYW5kIEQuTi4gQ2FtcGluLiAxOTczLiAgVGhlIGJlaGF2aW91ciBvZiBlbnRpcmUgYnVs bHMgb2YNZGlmZmVyZW50IGFnZXMgYXQgcGFzdHVyZS4gIFByb2MuIE5ldyBaZWFsYW5kIFNvYy4g QW5pbS4gUHJvZC4gMzM6MTI1LQ0NS2lsZ291ciwgUi4gZXQgYWwuIDE5NzcuICBPYnNlcnZhdGlv bnMgb24gdGhlIGJlaGF2aW91ciBhbmQgZmFjdG9ycw1pbmZsdWVuY2luZyB0aGUgc2V4dWFsbHkt YWN0aXZlIGdyb3VwIGluIGNhdHRsZS4gIFByb2MuIE5ldyBaZWFsYW5kIFNvYy4NQW5pbS4gUHJv ZC4gMzc6IDEyOC0NDVNjaGxvZXRoLCBWLlIuLCAxOTYxLiAgRGFzIFNvemlhbGxlYmVuIGRlcyBD YW1hcmd1ZS1SaW5kZXMuICBRdWFsaXRhdGl2ZSB1bmQNcXVhbnRpdGF0aXZlIFVudGVyc3VjaHVu Z2VuIHViZXIgZGllIHNvemlhbGVuIEJlemllaHVuZ2VuIC0gaW5zYmVzb25kZXJlIGRpZQ1zb3pp YWxlIFJhbmdvcmRudW5nIC0gZGVzIGhhbGJ3aWxkZW4gZnJhbnpvc2lzY2hlbiBLYW1wZnJpbmRl cy4gIFplaXQuDVRpZXJwc3ljaG9sLiwgMTg6IDU0Ny02MjcuDQ1IaW5jaCwgRy5OLiwgQy5KLiBU aHdhaXRlcywgSi5KLiBMeW5jaCBhbmQgQS5KLiBQZWFyc29uLiAxOTgyLiAgU3BhdGlhbA1yZWxh dGlvbnNoaXBzIHdpdGhpbiBhIGhlcmQgb2YgeW91bmcgc3RlcmlsZSBidWxscyBhbmQgc3RlZXJz LiAgQXBwbC4gQW5pbS4NQmVoYXYuIFNjaS4gODoyNy0NDUhpbmNoLCBHLk4uLCBKLkouIEx5bmNo IGFuZCBDLkouIFRod2FpdGVzLiAxOTgyLTgzLiBQYXR0ZXJucyBhbmQgZnJlcXVlbmN5DW9mIHNv Y2lhbCBpbnRlcmFjdGlvbnMgaW4geW91bmcgZ3JhemluZyBidWxscyBhbmQgc3RlZXJzLiAgQXBw bC4gQW5pbS4NQmVoYXYuIFNjaS4gOTogMTUtDQ1TYW1icmF1cywgSC5ILiAxOTY4LiAgRGFzIHNl eHVhbHZlcmhhbHRlbiBkZXMgcmluZGVzIGJlaSBmcmVpZXINaGVyZGVuaGFsdHVuZy4gIChUaGUg c2V4dWFsIGJlaGF2aW9yIG9mIGZyZWUtcmFuZ2luZyBjYXR0bGUuKSAgUHJvYy4gNnRoDUNvbmcu IEludGVybi4gUmVwcm9kLiBBbmltLiBJbnNlbS4gQXJ0aWYuLCBQYXJpcyAyOjE2NjctMTY3MC4N DU1hdHRuZXIsIFAuRS4sIEouTS4gR2VvcmdlIGFuZCBBLlcuSC4gQnJhZGVuIDE5NzQuICBIZXJk IG1hdGluZyBhY3Rpdml0eSBpbg1jYXR0bGUuICBKLiBSZXByb2QuIEZlcnQuIFByb2MuIEF1c3Ry YWwuIFNvYy4gUmVwcm9kLiBCaW9sLiAzNjogNDU0LTQ1NS4NDVNhbWJyYXVzLCBILkguIDE5NzEu ICBEYXMgU2V4dWFsIHZlcmhhbHRlbiBkZXMgSGF1c3JpbmRlcyBTcGV6aWVsbCBkZXMNU3RpZXJl cy4gKFRoZSBTZXh1YWwgQmVoYXZpb3Igb2YgRG9tZXN0aWMgQ2F0dGxlIHdpdGggUGFydGljdWxh ciBFbXBoYXNpcyBvbg10aGUgTWFsZS4pICBWZXJsYXkgUGF1bCBQYXJleSwgQmVybGluIHBwLjEt NTYuDQ0PAKSDLqXIQaagBaegBasJAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD+/wAAA18AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAA4IWf 8vlPaBCrkQgAKyez2TAAAADwAgAADgAAAAcAAACYAAAAAgAAANwAAAAEAAAAQAEAAAgAAABkAQAA DAAAAIgBAAALAAAArAEAAA0AAADQAQAADwAAAPQBAAAQAAAAGAIAAAoAAAA8AgAAEgAAAGACAAAO AAAAhAIAAAkAAACoAgAAEwAAAMwCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAFAFMAdQBtAG0A YQByAHkASQBuAGYAbwByAG0AYQB0AGkAbwBuAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKAAC AP///////////////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAC0AAAAgAwAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA////////////////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///////////////wAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHgAA ACgAAABDOlxNU09GRklDRVxXSU5XT1JEXFRFTVBMQVRFXE5PUk1BTC5ET1QAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAeAAAATQAAAERlYXIgQ2Fyb2w6ICAgSSBhbSBub3QgYXdhcmUgb2YgdmVyeSBtdWNo IG9uIHRoaXMgc3ViamVjdCBpbiB0aGUgbGl0ZXJhdHVyZS4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHgAAAAgA AABIb2xyb3lkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHgAAAAgAAABIb2xyb3lkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAAABkKcXVNr0BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAAADApFmLt94B AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAAABkKcXVNr0BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAAABGwyMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHgAA ABMAAABNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCA2LjAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHgAAAAIAAAAxAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADcpWUAM8AJCAAAAABl AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwAAcgoAAFITAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAcgcAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAGwAAAAAEAAAbAAAAGwQAAAAAAAAbBAAAAAAAABsEAAAAAAA AGwQAAAAAAAAgwoAABQAAACCEAAAAAAAAIIQAAAAAAAAghAAAAAAAACCEAAAAAAAAIIQAAAAAAAA ghAAAAoAAACMEAAACgAAAIIQAAAAAAAAXxIAADEAAACWEAAAAAAAAJYQAAAAAAAAlhAAAAAAAACW EAAAAAAAAJYQAAAAAAAAlhAAAAAAAACWEAAAAAAAAJYQAAAAAAAAwhAAAAIAAADEEAAAAAAAAMQQ AAAAAAAAxBAAACkAAADtEAAAqgAAAJcRAACqAAAAQRIAAB4AAACQEgAAVAAAAOQSAABuAAAAXxIA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAbBAAAAAAAACWEAAAAAAAAAAABgAHAAEAAQCWEAAAAAAAAJYQ AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJYQAAAAAAAAlhAAAAAAAABfEgAAAAAAAJYQAAAAAAAAbBAA AAAAAABsEAAAAAAAAJYQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJYQAAAAAAAAlhAAAAAAAACWEAAA AAAAAJYQAAAAAAAAlhAAAAAAAABsEAAAAAAAAJYQAAAAAAAAbBAAAAAAAACWEAAAAAAAAMIQAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGwQAAAIAAAAdBAAAA4AAABsEAAAAAAAAGwQAAAAAAAAbBAAAAAA AABsEAAAAAAAAJYQAAAAAAAAwhAAAAAAAACWEAAALAAAAJYQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABEZWFyIENhcm9sOiAgIEkgYW0gbm90IGF3YXJlIG9mIHZlcnkgbXVjaCBv biB0aGlzIHN1YmplY3QgaW4gdGhlIGxpdGVyYXR1cmUuDSBJdCBpcyBrbm93biB0aGF0IGJ1bGxz IGFyZSBhdHRyYWN0ZWQgdG8gc2V4dWFsbHkgYWN0aXZlIGdyb3VwcyBvZiBmZW1hbGVzDWZyb20g YSBkaXN0YW5jZS4gIEkgc3VzcGVjdCBkaXN0YW5jZSB3aWxsIHZhcnkgZGVwZW5kaW5nIG9uIHRv cG9ncmFwaGljYWwNZmVhdHVyZXMgYW5kIGRlbnNpdHkgb2YgdmVnZXRhdGlvbi4gIENvd3Mgd2ls bCBzZWVrIG91dCBidWxscyBidXQgbm90IHRvIHRoZQ1zYW1lIGRlZ3JlZSBhcyBld2VzIHNlZWsg b3V0IHJhbXMuDQ1JIHJlY29tbWVuZCB0aHJlZSBwYXBlcnM6DQ1CbG9ja2V5LCBNLkEuIGRlIEIu IDE5NzkuICBPYnNlcnZhdGlvbnMgb24gZ3JvdXAgbWF0aW5nIG9mIGJ1bGxzIGF0IHBhc3R1cmUu DSBBcHBsLiBBbmltLiBFdGhvbC4gNToxNS0NDUtpbGdvdXIsIFIuIGFuZCBELk4uIENhbXBpbi4g MTk3My4gIFRoZSBiZWhhdmlvdXIgb2YgZW50aXJlIGJ1bGxzIG9mDWRpZmZlcmVudCBhZ2VzIGF0 IHBhc3R1cmUuICBQcm9jLiBOZXcgWmVhbGFuZCBTb2MuIEFuaW0uIFByb2QuIDMzOjEyNS0NDUtp bGdvdXIsIFIuIGV0IGFsLiAxOTc3LiAgT2JzZXJ2YXRpb25zIG9uIHRoZSBiZWhhdmlvdXIgYW5k IGZhY3RvcnMNaW5mbHVlbmNpbmcgdGhlIHNleHVhbGx5LWFjdGl2ZSBncm91cCBpbiBjYXR0bGUu ICBQcm9jLiBOZXcgWmVhbGFuZCBTb2MuDUFuaW0uIFByb2QuIDM3OiAxMjgtDQ1TY2hsb2V0aCwg Vi5SLiwgMTk2MS4gIERhcyBTb3ppYWxsZWJlbiBkZXMgQ2FtYXJndWUtUmluZGVzLiAgUXVhbGl0 YXRpdmUgdW5kDXF1YW50aXRhdGl2ZSBVbnRlcnN1Y2h1bmdlbiB1YmVyIGRpZSBzb3ppYWxlbiBC ZXppZWh1bmdlbiAtIGluc2Jlc29uZGVyZSBkaWUNc296aWFsZSBSYW5nb3JkbnVuZyAtIGRlcyBo YWxid2lsZGVuIGZyYW56b3Npc2NoZW4gS2FtcGZyaW5kZXMuICBaZWl0Lg1UaWVycHN5Y2hvbC4s IDE4OiA1NDctNjI3Lg0NSGluY2gsIEcuTi4sIEMuSi4gVGh3YWl0ZXMsIEouSi4gTHluY2ggYW5k IEEuSi4gUGVhcnNvbi4gMTk4Mi4gIFNwYXRpYWwNcmVsYXRpb25zaGlwcyB3aXRoaW4gYSBoZXJk IG9mIHlvdW5nIHN0ZXJpbGUgYnVsbHMgYW5kIHN0ZWVycy4gIEFwcGwuIEFuaW0uDUJlaGF2LiBT Y2kuIDg6MjctDQ1IaW5jaCwgRy5OLiwgSi5KLiBMeW5jaCBhbmQgQy5KLiBUaHdhaXRlcy4gMTk4 Mi04My4gUGF0dGVybnMgYW5kIGZyZXF1ZW5jeQ1vZiBzb2NpYWwgaW50ZXJhY3Rpb25zIGluIHlv dW5nIGdyYXppbmcgYnVsbHMgYW5kIHN0ZWVycy4gIEFwcGwuIEFuaW0uDUJlaGF2LiBTY2kuIDk6 IDE1LQ0NU2FtYnJhdXMsIEguSC4gMTk2OC4gIERhcyBzZXh1YWx2ZXJoYWx0ZW4gZGVzIHJpbmRl cyBiZWkgZnJlaWVyDWhlcmRlbmhhbHR1bmcuICAoVGhlIHNleHVhbCBiZWhhdmlvciBvZiBmcmVl LXJhbmdpbmcgY2F0dGxlLikgIFByb2MuIDZ0aA1Db25nLiBJbnRlcm4uIFJlcHJvZC4gQW5pbS4g SW5zZW0uIEFydGlmLiwgUGFyaXMgMjoxNjY3LTE2NzAuDQ1NYXR0bmVyLCBQLkUuLCBKLk0uIEdl b3JnZSBhbmQgQS5XLkguIEJyYWRlbiAxOTc0LiAgSGVyZCBtYXRpbmcgYWN0aXZpdHkgaW4NY2F0 dGxlLiAgSi4gUmVwcm9kLiBGZXJ0LiBQcm9jLiBBdXN0cmFsLiBTb2MuIFJlcHJvZC4gQmlvbC4g MzY6IDQ1NC00NTUuDQ1TYW1icmF1cywgSC5ILiAxOTcxLiAgRGFzIFNleHVhbCB2ZXJoYWx0ZW4g ZGVzIEhhdXNyaW5kZXMgU3BlemllbGwgZGVzDVN0aWVyZXMuIChUaGUgU2V4dWFsIEJlaGF2aW9y IG9mIERvbWVzdGljIENhdHRsZSB3aXRoIFBhcnRpY3VsYXIgRW1waGFzaXMgb24NdGhlIE1hbGUu KSAgVmVybGF5IFBhdWwgUGFyZXksIEJlcmxpbiBwcC4xLTU2Lg0NDwCkgy6lyEGmoAWnoAWrCQAA AAAAmgcAAAcAcgoAAAAA/////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwAAcgoAAJcKAAAA/gAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnUBAgADAABNAwAAmAMAAOIDAAAvBAAA UgQAAFMEAABtBAAAbgQAALsEAADVBAAA1gQAABsFAABiBQAAYwUAAKcFAADwBQAABQYAAAYGAABT BgAAoAYAAOcGAAACBwAAAwcAAEsHAACXBwAAqQcAAKoHAAD1BwAAPAgAAE8IAABQCAAAkAgAANkI AAAXCQAAGAkAAGQJAACtCQAArgkAAPUJAABCCgAAcQoAAHIKAAD+AAFFIxsB/gABRSMbAf4AAUUj GwH+AAFFIxsB/gABRSMbAf4AAUUjGwH+AAFFIxsB/gABRSMbAf4AAUUjGwH+AAFFIxsB/gABRSMb Af4AAUUjGwH+AAFFIxsB/gABRSMbAf4AAUUjGwH+AAFFIxsB/gABRSMbAf4AAUUjGwH+AAFFIxsB /gABRSMbAf4AAUUjGwH+AAFFIxsB/gABRSMbAf4AAUUjGwH+AAFFIxsB/gABRSMbAf4AAUUjGwH+ AAFFIxsB/gABRSMbAf4AAUUjGwH+AAFFIxsB/gABRSMbAf4AAUUjGwH+AAFFIxsB/gABRSMbAf4A AUUjGwH+AAFFIxsB/gABRSMbAf4AAUUjGwH+AAFFIxsB/gABRSMbAf4AAUUjGwEAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAqDgAPAAgAAQBLAA8AAAAAABwAAEDx /wIAHAAGTm9ybWFsAAIAAAAGAGEJDGMYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACIAQUDy/6EAIgAWRGVm YXVsdCBQYXJhZ3JhcGggRm9udAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAEIP//AQAAAAAAmgcAAAAAAAAAAAADAACX CgAABgAAAwAAcgoAAAcALAAHSG9scm95ZCFDOlxNU09GRklDRVxKT1VSTkFMU1xDQVRUTFNFWC5E T0P/QElCTSA0MDc2IEV4ZWNKZXQgSUkgUHJpbnRlcgBMUFQxOgBJSjQwNzYASUJNIDQwNzYgRXhl Y0pldCBJSSBQcmludGVyAAAAAAAKA3E4RABlAAMHAAABAAkAAAAAAAAAAQABAPz/AAABAAAAAAAA AJQKDwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACQAAAAAAAAgAP9//wACAAAAAQABAAAAAAABAQIEBAcBAAAA4qSXvABJQk0gNDA3NiBFeGVj SmV0IElJIFByaW50ZXIAAAAAAAoDcThEAGUAAwcAAAEACQAAAAAAAAABAAEA/P8AAAEAAAAAAAAA lAoPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAJAAAAAAAACAA/3//AAIAAAABAAEAAAAAAAEBAgQEBwEAAADipJe8AAOAAQBxBwAAcQcAAAsA AIAAAHEHAAAAAAAAcQcAADEAFRaQAQAAVGltZXMgTmV3IFJvbWFuAAwWkAECAFN5bWJvbAALJpAB AABBcmlhbAAiAAQAAQiMGAAA0AIAAGgBAAAAAI5aImaOWiJmAAAAAAEAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAABACDEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJANuAAAATERlYXIgQ2Fyb2w6ICAgSSBh bSBub3QgYXdhcmUgb2YgdmVyeSBtdWNoIG9uIHRoaXMgc3ViamVjdCBpbiB0aGUgbGl0ZXJhdHVy ZS4AAAAHSG9scm95ZAdIb2xyb3lkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA== --Boundary_(ID_A59j1pS4xLLPo21vF//rwQ)-- From: IN%"mayersm@numbat.murdoch.edu.au" 10-FEB-1998 19:11:16.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: pig girls Hi my name is Michelle and Iam doing honours at Murdoch University Western Australia. Carmel (cooperc@numbat.murdoch.edu.au) is my faithful side kick. Together we are looking at adapting a swedish pig housing system to Australia's conditions. We have been trying to find information on piglet aggression, cross-suckling, indicators of stress/welfare in livestock and the effect of human interactions on the welfare of livestock. If anybody knows of any good sources of information related to these topics could you please let us know. Thankyou, love shell and carmel p.s looking forward to discussing similar topics in the future Dr Ken Johnson, Division of Veterinary and Biomedical Sciences, Murdoch University. W.A. 6150 AUSTRALIA Phone: +61 (8) 9360 2257 Fax: +61 (8) 9310 4144 From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 11-FEB-1998 02:13:54.52 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: printout Monty Several of you have been so kind as to re-send me the message and it worked all right. Many thanks! Prof.Dr. Frank O. Odberg University of Ghent Dpt. of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke Belgium tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: 7849 From: IN%"s.vdweghe@ktbl.de" "sabine van den weghe" 11-FEB-1998 02:28:16.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cattle sexual behaviour Dear Carol, it might be of some help to contact Prof. Sambraus from Munich University who carried out a number of studies in the 60th and 70th looking in particular at bulls sexual behaviour - most is published in german language. Since I dont know his email, his postal address may do it: Prof. Dr. Hans Hinrich Sambraus TH Muenich Lehrgebiet f=FCr Tierhaltung D- 85350 Freising-Weihenstephan Best wishes Sabine From: IN%"theix.inst-elevage@wanadoo.fr" "Institut de l'Elevage - Antenne de Theix" 11-FEB-1998 04:39:21.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Need information on transport mortality of cattle Sorry that my message yesterday was not clear enough. I am looking for some information about mortality in beef cattle during transport (during the transport itself and the days that follow) Thanks From: IN%"harrism@sask.usask.ca" "Moira Harris" 11-FEB-1998 12:45:30.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Looking for journal article Dear all, Does anybody out there have access to an article published in Pig International, November 1997, Vol. 27, No. 11? I don't know the title or page numbers, but it is about putting a rabbit in the farrowing crate with the sow, in order to calm the sow. If so, would some kind person be willing to fax (if it is a short article) or snail mail me a copy? Our library does not carry Pig International, and I will incur the wrath and ridicule of the inter-library loans people if I put in a request without title or page numbers! Thanks, - Moira Harris harrism@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 12-FEB-1998 05:57:11.29 To: IN%"harrism@sask.usask.ca" "Moira Harris" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Looking for journal article It's a very short note with a picture of a rabbit in a barren 3/4-slatted farrowing pen on p.22: "A furry friend at farrowing Do not be surprised to find a rabbit in the farrowing pen at some Italian herds. It is there to reduce piglet losses! The idea was seen first in the Netherlands and has since been tried in Italy with some success. Especially with gilts, the companionship of the rabbit has been found to have a calming effect. as the gilt becomes accustomed to the movement of a small animal near her while she waits to farrow, she is thought to be less likely to savage her own piglets when they are born." There is indeed some logic in this trick. I'm just wondering whether for the rabbit's welfare one shouldn't add some bedding. On the picture the rabbit is on the small 1/4 flat surface. Maybe it's also better to use always the same rabbit(s) which then get to know their job? Just a question: has this been sponsored by Playboy? I can't see well on the picture whether the rabbit has a bow-tie. In French a sex joke is called "une histoire cochonne" (= a sow's joke)... Hope this is of some use to you. Frank Oedberg Prof.Dr. Frank O. Odberg University of Ghent Dpt. of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke Belgium tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: 7849 On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Moira Harris wrote: > Dear all, > Does anybody out there have access to an article published in Pig > International, November 1997, Vol. 27, No. 11? I don't know the title or > page numbers, but it is about putting a rabbit in the farrowing crate with > the sow, in order to calm the sow. If so, would some kind person be willing > to fax (if it is a short article) or snail mail me a copy? Our library does > not carry Pig International, and I will incur the wrath and ridicule of the > inter-library loans people if I put in a request without title or page numbers! > > Thanks, > - Moira Harris > harrism@sask.usask.ca > > From: IN%"v8350@bealenet.com" 12-FEB-1998 09:40:30.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Chopin ? I have a question concerning the 'March of Technology'. As a wildlife rehabilitator, I was a bit shocked to read of the practice of chopping off toes as an identification method for small mammals and amphibians in capture-release trapping surveys; usually refered to as "toe-clipping". Perhaps this is no longer the current practice? (Or legal?) What are the current methods in use to mark and identify small mammals/amphibians in studies? Do international guidelines on acceptable methods exist? Does the "humaneness" of methodology impact qualifying for funding? So where is the current state of the art? Oops - lotsa questions! Mary Mary Smith v8350@bealenet.com Woodford, Va. U.S.A. WRL, RAWRN state lic. squirrels since '78 ______________________________ From: IN%"pkabai@ns.univet.hu" "Kabai Peter" 13-FEB-1998 03:11:00.14 To: IN%"v8350@bealenet.com" "v8350@bealenet.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chopin ? On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, v8350@bealenet.com wrote: > As a wildlife rehabilitator, I was a bit shocked to read of the > practice of chopping off toes as an identification method for small > mammals and amphibians in capture-release trapping surveys; usually > refered to as "toe-clipping". > > Perhaps this is no longer the current practice? (Or legal?) > > Mary Dear Mary, A handbook, Research and Management Techiques for Wildlife and Habitats, ISBN 0-935868-81-x, new edition published in 1996, discusses marking methods in a special chapters. According to this chapter toe clipping is still widely used to individually mark small mammals and amphibians. There are, however, a variety of other techniques also described in this chapter. Toe clipping is considered a fast, easy and permanent way of marking, with very few recorded harm to the animals. Seems that this method is still legal in the US. Best wishes, Peter _________________________________________________ from: Peter Kabai (pkabai@ns.univet.hu) Behavioural Biology Research Group Institute for Zoology, University of Veterinary Science H-1400 Budapest, POB 2, HUNGARY www.univet.hu ************************************************* From: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM. Sherwin" 13-FEB-1998 03:40:20.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: toe amputation Dear All, I am currently a member of the BVAAWF/FRAME/RSPCA/UFAW joint working group on refinement in rodent husbandry. This report is now in its last draft, and in the section on 'Identification', it is recommended 'Toe amputation should NEVER be used'. It is also worth considering that some journals, e.g. Animal Behaviour, would consider this an ethically questionable method of identification and might refuse publication of articles on these grounds (though I am not representing the ASSAB Ethics Committee). It is also worth considering how our use of language, i.e. 'toe-clipping' perpetuates the notion this is an innocuous practise, rather like the phrases 'beak-clipping' and 'beak-trimming', when in reality it is likely they are very painful procedures, at least in the short-term. Are we refusing to accept this and being self-protectionist by recoiling at using the word 'amputation'? Regards Chris Sherwin University of Bristol From: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM. Sherwin" 13-FEB-1998 03:49:06.14 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: rabbits/pigs/journal article Dear All, The article Moira Harris was seeking information on (i.e. the use of rabbits to calm gilts/sows) can be found in Pig International, November 1997, vol 27, No. 11, page 22. I was rather pleased to see the idea of interspecies companionship in practice (I believe rabbits are also used with horses), but has anyone considered the welfare of the small, furry companion? The rabbit in the picture cited above looks terrified! Regards, Chris Sherwin From: IN%"v8350@bealenet.com" 13-FEB-1998 08:22:10.36 To: IN%"pkabai@ns.univet.hu" "Kabai Peter" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chopin ? >There are, however, a variety of other techniques also described in this chapter. Toe clipping is considered a fast, easy and permanent way of marking, with very few recorded harm to the animals. Seems that this method is still legal in the US.< Dear Peter, Reading between your lines a bit, it sounds as though alternatives to the "clip" method have been found satisfactory in some, (much?) of the world. Strange that the US., fairly bristling with technology and humane ideals, does not mandate less invasive methods. Best, Mary From: IN%"Terimath@aol.com" 13-FEB-1998 09:39:48.24 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re:Brief intro./ Chopin? Hello everyone, Athough I am not a professional, I subscribed to the list because I have a great interest in the ethical treatment of animals. I am a mother, kindergarten teacher's assistant and part-time student. Please forgive my inexperience with discussion lists. I am taking an online English class and we will be writing essays on bioethical issues for internet publication by the end of the semester. In my research of "animal rights", I've learned some very shocking things are happening to our animals. The very idea of chopping off toes for a survey is appalling! If there are less invasive methods of tagging an animal, then the U.S. is uduly abusing the animals. It must be painful, wouldn't it feel so to us? I do agree that we use certain language to downplay the effects of what would be considered cruel. I am surprised there aren't better terms commonly used, such as for the "declawing" of cats! Thank you, Teresa Mathena From: IN%"jamench@ucdavis.edu" "Joy A. Mench" 13-FEB-1998 10:41:56.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "appl-ethol" CC: Subj: FW: toe amputation Chris and other commentators: I am curious about what methods your committee would recommend in the case of large-scale, long-term field studies. We have struggled with this question several times on our animal care committee. For very small mammals (or amphibians), tags are unworkable because of size. For some species, bands are actually quite dangerous, and can lead to injury. If the study is long-term, things like dye marks also will not work because they fade, fur is lost, etc. Transponders, of course, are always a possibility. However, if the investigator is doing a large scale study, for example looking at population trends and habitat use over a large area (which can be very important work if you are trying to figure out factors affecting population trends in threatened species,for example), then transponders are prohibitively expensive. And are we jumping the gun and assuming a practice has negative welfare implications accross all species without supporting evidence? After all, Mike Gentle found that toe-clipping of broiler breeders apparently does not cause long-term pain (although of course one also needs to assess impacts on things like longevity and reproductive success in wild animals). Thoughts? Joy Mench jamench@ucdavis.edu ---------- From: applied-ethology-error To: applied-ethology Subject: toe amputation Date: Friday, February 13, 1998 9:36AM Dear All, I am currently a member of the BVAAWF/FRAME/RSPCA/UFAW joint working group on refinement in rodent husbandry. This report is now in its last draft, and in the section on 'Identification', it is recommended 'Toe amputation should NEVER be used'. It is also worth considering that some journals, e.g. Animal Behaviour, would consider this an ethically questionable method of identification and might refuse publication of articles on these grounds (though I am not representing the ASSAB Ethics Committee). It is also worth considering how our use of language, i.e. 'toe-clipping' perpetuates the notion this is an innocuous practise, rather like the phrases 'beak-clipping' and 'beak-trimming', when in reality it is likely they are very painful procedures, at least in the short-term. Are we refusing to accept this and being self-protectionist by recoiling at using the word 'amputation'? Regards Chris Sherwin University of Bristol From: IN%"jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" "JANICE SWANSON" 13-FEB-1998 10:48:43.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chopin ? Regarding the comments below on toe clipping and acceptability in the U.S. Although there has not been a federal legislative mandate specifically prohibiting toe clipping I do know at the funding and institutional levels it is discouraged and many times research protocols are not approved. The animal care committees (mandated by federal law) that are in place in U.S. research and teaching institutions have specific marching orders regarding the implementation and use of valid alternatives for painful procedures. Researchers that propose the use of a painful procedure must adequately justify its use over the alternatives. Based on these marching orders, my committee has not approved toe clipping in nearly all of the proposals where it has been advocated for identification because alternatives are available. I have a wildlife biologist who is now successfuly microchipping mice. So specific toe clipping law-- no, instead a law that requires that alternatives be sought and implemented for painful procedures, like toe clipping. Frankly I grow tired of the assumption that because no specific law exists in the U.S. that we are an archaic pack of nimrods. This message is coming from a very tired animal care and use committee chairperson and hopefully speaks for the countless others sitting on animal care and use committees across the U.S. Janice Swanson > Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:30:10 -0800 > From: "v8350@bealenet.com" > Subject: Re: Chopin ? > To: Kabai Peter > Cc: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Reply-to: v8350@bealenet.com > >There are, however, a variety of other techniques also described > in this chapter. Toe clipping is considered a fast, easy and permanent > way of marking, with very few recorded harm to the animals. Seems > that this method is still legal in the US.< > > Dear Peter, > Reading between your lines a bit, it sounds as though alternatives to > the "clip" method have been found satisfactory in some, (much?) of the > world. > > Strange that the US., fairly bristling with technology and humane > ideals, does not mandate less invasive methods. > > Best, > Mary > From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 13-FEB-1998 11:37:34.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: The Origins of Valentine's Day Since the timing is appropriate and the content involves animals and behavior, I thought the group might appreciate the following: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >The True Origins of Valentine's Day Revealed >by Bronson Majors > >In the past decade or so, Christian fundamentalists have been waging a >campaign to eliminate Halloween from the American holiday calendar because >of its ties to pagan beliefs and witchcraft. Thank God they haven't found >out about the origins of Valentine's Day, or all hell would break loose. > >According to Sarah Dening in her book, The Mythology of Sex, Valentine's >Day can be traced back to the Lupercalian festivals in classical Rome. >Those festivities were held each year in the Lupercal grotto, where the >wolf-bitch Lupa was believed to have suckled Romulus and Remus, mythical >founders of Rome. > >During the Lupercaliae--actually purification ceremonies for the Roman new >year in February-- goats (a fertility symbol) were sacrificed and young men >smeared with their blood. The priests then donned the raw goat hides and, >using strips of the skin, slapped the hands of any woman >present who wished to conceive, in order to increase her chances. >After the men and women exchanged clothing, each man would then pick a slip >of paper with the name of a woman written on it and they'd proceed to have >sex. A general orgy ensued. > >After Rome was Christianized, the Church attempted to stamp out the >Lupercalian festivals altogether, but the tradition was so strong it had to >resort to compromises. It came up with a mythical martyr, St. Valentine, >to bless the day. And the slips of paper? They evolved into >today's Valentine's cards. Fortunately the goat rituals haven't >survived--though we do wonder sometimes what Southern Baptists do when no >one's looking. > >Incidentally, the month of February itself is named after Juno Februata, >the Roman goddess of the fever of love. Lordy, Miss Mabel, bring me my >smelling salts! > >So if you were wondering what the Southern Baptists will be boycotting >next, wonder no more: Wal-Mart, Walgreen's, K-Mart, Kroger, Hallmark >Cards, and just about any other store in America that dares to celebrate >that most pagan of all holidays: Valentines Day. > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" "JANICE SWANSON" 13-FEB-1998 11:57:28.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Nimrod Jeff Rushen asked what a nimrod was. In common usage most folks use the term to describe a stupid very narrow-minded person. However, Nimrod is really a sportsman or hunter (Oxford American). [So Jeff, our former Vice President Spiro Agnew who used the term to describe our press was probably referring to the later definition and not the common use.] Janice From: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM. Sherwin" 13-FEB-1998 12:04:38.20 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: toe amputation Dear Joy and others, Joy asks what alternatives would I suggest. Is refusal to permit the study an option? Is this not possibly a case of scientists doing something because they can, rather than because they should? As with most considerations on the ethics of animal use, one really needs to understand the potential benefits of the study; I am afraid I do not feel adequately qualified or informed as to what the field study would achieve to decide whether the study should be conducted. However, would a study examining the daily movements of rare Mountain gorillas be approved if the only method of identification was to partially remove their fingers? I suspect not, despite the probability that after a period of time the gorillas would probably show little sign of pain or distress. Why then should this be allowed for another mammal species simply because it is smaller? Could not the onus be placed on the experimenters to prove this is not chronically painful to the animals? Regarding sensitivity and pain experienced by animals after amputation. Joy is correct in stating that amputation does not necessarily cause long-term pain. It is a while since I have looked at MikeUs work on toe-clipping, but I seem to remember that this practice led to the development of neuromas. His other findings on beak-trimming are of interest (e.g. Turkeys, 43(2) 23-26, 1995). These results indicate that beak-trimming does not cause long-term pain, however, it is not quite this simple. Beak-trimming at 6-21 days does not appear to result in chronic pain, but, trimming at 5 weeks of age can result in the development of neuromas and behavioural evidence of chronic pain. So, based on this evidence, in the field-trial Joy mentions, the animals would have to be toe-clipped at an early age to avoid chronic suffering. Regards, Chris Sherwin From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 13-FEB-1998 12:52:23.62 To: IN%"jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" "JANICE SWANSON" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Nimrod JANICE SWANSON wrote: > > Jeff Rushen asked what a nimrod was. In common usage most folks > use the term to describe a stupid very narrow-minded person. > However, Nimrod is really a sportsman or hunter (Oxford American). > [So Jeff, our former Vice President Spiro Agnew who used the term to > describe our press was probably referring to the later definition and > not the common use.] > > Janice I can't resist jumping in here. I recently took part in a discussion about Bible passages which relate to the treatment of animals, and came across this while looking for relevant quotes: "There are four hunters mentioned in the Bible: three in Genesis and one in Revelation. The first hunter is named Nimrod in Genesis 10:8-9. He is the son of Cush and founder of the Babylonian Empire, the empire that opposes God throughout Scripture and is destroyed in the Book of Revelation. In Micah 5:6, God's enemies are said to dwell in the land of Nimrod. Many highly reputable evangelical scholars such as Barnhouse, Pink and Scofield regard Nimrod as a prototype of the anti-Christ." So both connotations of the word "nimrod" probably arose from the same biblical figure. -- Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- -- phone (423) 974-5839 -- FAX (423) 974-5640 -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Reality is whatever refuses to go away when I stop believing in it. -- Philip K. Dick From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 13-FEB-1998 13:04:51.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: FW: toe amputation Get serious people. At the risk of being branded insensitive, I offer some observations: Perspective seems lacking in this and similar discussions. That is, presumably animal studies have been subjected in advance to some kind of risk/benefit calculation: Is this project in the long-term interest of the individual or the species involved. If so, what is the acceptable level of risk (or discomfort) to be allowed in order to gain the planned benefits. More specifically and subjectively, were an individual vole to be captured by a fox and then escape with the sacrifice of a single digit, he would find that to be the luckiest day of his life. So if a researcher were to do the same thing in the name of benefitting the vole species, it would seem not to be a real problem. Certainly, the risk/benefit ratio must be calculated. Again, specifically and subjectively, an individual equine might think differently about the loss of a single digit. More generally, in my five-plus decades it has been my experience that there are exceedingly few absolutes in this world. Certainly, pain and discomfort are not. This is not meant to be a vote for pain and discomfort; just a suggestion that the perspective of a risk/benefit calculation has much to offer to those who would serve any segment of society. Reply to message from jamench@ucdavis.edu of Fri, 13 Feb > > >Chris and other commentators: > >I am curious about what methods your committee would recommend in the case >of large-scale, long-term field studies. We have struggled with this >question several times on our animal care committee. For very small mammals >(or amphibians), tags are unworkable because of size. For some species, >bands are actually quite dangerous, and can lead to injury. If the study is >long-term, things like dye marks also will not work because they fade, fur >is lost, etc. Transponders, of course, are always a possibility. However, >if the investigator is doing a large scale study, for example looking at >population trends and habitat use over a large area (which can be very >important work if you are trying to figure out factors affecting population >trends in threatened species,for example), then transponders are >prohibitively expensive. And are we jumping the gun and assuming a practice >has negative welfare implications accross all species without supporting >evidence? After all, Mike Gentle found that toe-clipping of broiler >breeders apparently does not cause long-term pain (although of course one >also needs to assess impacts on things like longevity and reproductive >success in wild animals). Thoughts? > >Joy Mench >jamench@ucdavis.edu > ---------- >From: applied-ethology-error >To: applied-ethology >Subject: toe amputation >Date: Friday, February 13, 1998 9:36AM > >Dear All, >I am currently a member of the BVAAWF/FRAME/RSPCA/UFAW joint working group >on refinement in rodent husbandry. This report is now in its last draft, >and in the section on 'Identification', it is recommended 'Toe amputation >should NEVER be used'. It is also worth considering that some journals, >e.g. Animal Behaviour, would consider this an ethically questionable >method of identification and might refuse publication of articles on these >grounds (though I am not representing the ASSAB Ethics Committee). It is >also worth considering how our use of language, i.e. 'toe-clipping' >perpetuates the notion this is an innocuous practise, rather like the >phrases 'beak-clipping' and 'beak-trimming', when in reality it is likely >they are very painful procedures, at least in the short-term. Are we >refusing to accept this and being self-protectionist by recoiling at >using the word 'amputation'? > >Regards > >Chris Sherwin >University of Bristol > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 13-FEB-1998 13:06:55.12 To: IN%"v8350@bealenet.com", IN%"pkabai@ns.univet.hu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: US vs Europe >>> "v8350@bealenet.com" 13/02/ 12h30 >>> > Strange that the US., fairly bristling with technology and humane ideals, does not mandate less invasive methods.>>> Some of their humane ideals involve not lumbering up their citizens with restrictive legislation unless it is necessary, and unless other approaches cannot be used. Differences between Europe and the US in attitudes to animal welfare are interesting. Many Europeans assume that, because there are more laws on animal welfare in Europe, then animal welfare must be better. Is it? The attitude of many people on this side of the water (at least in Agriculture) is that European laws on animal welfare are simply based on emotions, hysteria or represent disguised protectionism. Laws on animal welfare are an effective way of getting rid of procedures that people find objectionable. Do they improve animal welfare? Frankly, many of the laws are difficult to defend on scientific grounds. Sure there are more animal welfare reguilations in Europe. Are the animals, on the whole, better off? Jeff Rushen From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 13-FEB-1998 13:15:02.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Nimrod Actually, Spero used the word Nabob (a rich Indian (from India) magistrate, or a self-important small-time bureaucrat), as in, "Nattering, nabobs, of negativism". Reply to message from jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu of Fri, 13 Feb > >Jeff Rushen asked what a nimrod was. In common usage most folks >use the term to describe a stupid very narrow-minded person. >However, Nimrod is really a sportsman or hunter (Oxford American). >[So Jeff, our former Vice President Spiro Agnew who used the term to >describe our press was probably referring to the later definition and >not the common use.] > >Janice > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 13-FEB-1998 13:29:07.58 To: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: toe amputation -REPONSE >>> "CM. Sherwin" 13/02/ 12h58 >>> However, would a study examining the daily movements of rare Mountain gorillas be approved if the only method of identification was to partially remove their fingers? I suspect not, >>> I am not so sure. It might be justified to cut fingers off the wild animals if this was the only way of ensuring that wild gorrillas weren't being taken for medical research or as pets etc.. I believe the horns of rhinos and the tusks of elephants in some parks in Africa are chopped off to make them less attractive to poachers. >>>Why then should this be allowed for another mammal species simply because it is smaller? >>> This is not really a fair comparison. The smallness of the rodents makes it more difficult to identify them. >>> Could not the onus be placed on the experimenters to prove this is not chronically painful to the animals?>>> I have trouble imagining that total or partial digitectomy (if you need a euphemism) wouldn't be painful. But even if it was chronically painful, if it was the only way of tracking individuals (assuming for the sake of arguement) and if this tracking was thought necessary to maintain a threatened population, wouldn't saving the population justify us causing chronic pain to some individuals? Is it worse than tail docking dogs, pigs, cattle, tooth clipping piglets or even using ear tags for cattle and pigs? Jeff Rushen From: IN%"jennifer.williams@attws.com" "Williams, Jennifer" 13-FEB-1998 13:33:02.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'", IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" "'aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu'" CC: Subj: RE: FW: toe amputation Hmmmm......Lets get serious then. Using your analogy, we could cut off your finger if it benefited the human race. Who really is benefitting from these studies? Knowledge should not have to come from inflicting pain and/or discomfort on the species one is studying. Sincerely, Jennifer Williams >---------- >From: aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu[SMTP:aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu] >Sent: Friday, February 13, 1998 11:04 AM >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Re: FW: toe amputation > > > Get serious people. At the risk of being branded insensitive, >I offer some observations: > Perspective seems lacking in this and similar discussions. >That is, presumably animal studies have been subjected in advance >to some kind of risk/benefit calculation: Is this project in the >long-term interest of the individual or the species involved. If so, >what is the acceptable level of risk (or discomfort) to be allowed >in order to gain the planned benefits. > More specifically and subjectively, were an individual >vole to be captured by a fox and then escape with the sacrifice of >a single digit, he would find that to be the luckiest day of his >life. So if a researcher were to do the same thing in the name of >benefitting the vole species, it would seem not to be a real problem. > Certainly, the risk/benefit ratio must be calculated. Again, >specifically and subjectively, an individual equine might think >differently about the loss of a single digit. > More generally, in my five-plus decades it has been my >experience that there are exceedingly few absolutes in this world. >Certainly, pain and discomfort are not. This is not meant to be >a vote for pain and discomfort; just a suggestion that the >perspective of a risk/benefit calculation has much to offer to >those who would serve any segment of society. > > > > > > > >Reply to message from jamench@ucdavis.edu of Fri, 13 Feb >> >> >>Chris and other commentators: >> >>I am curious about what methods your committee would recommend in the case >>of large-scale, long-term field studies. We have struggled with this >>question several times on our animal care committee. For very small mammals >>(or amphibians), tags are unworkable because of size. For some species, >>bands are actually quite dangerous, and can lead to injury. If the study is >>long-term, things like dye marks also will not work because they fade, fur >>is lost, etc. Transponders, of course, are always a possibility. However, >>if the investigator is doing a large scale study, for example looking at >>population trends and habitat use over a large area (which can be very >>important work if you are trying to figure out factors affecting population >>trends in threatened species,for example), then transponders are >>prohibitively expensive. And are we jumping the gun and assuming a practice >>has negative welfare implications accross all species without supporting >>evidence? After all, Mike Gentle found that toe-clipping of broiler >>breeders apparently does not cause long-term pain (although of course one >>also needs to assess impacts on things like longevity and reproductive >>success in wild animals). Thoughts? >> >>Joy Mench >>jamench@ucdavis.edu >> ---------- >>From: applied-ethology-error >>To: applied-ethology >>Subject: toe amputation >>Date: Friday, February 13, 1998 9:36AM >> >>Dear All, >>I am currently a member of the BVAAWF/FRAME/RSPCA/UFAW joint working group >>on refinement in rodent husbandry. This report is now in its last draft, >>and in the section on 'Identification', it is recommended 'Toe amputation >>should NEVER be used'. It is also worth considering that some journals, >>e.g. Animal Behaviour, would consider this an ethically questionable >>method of identification and might refuse publication of articles on these >>grounds (though I am not representing the ASSAB Ethics Committee). It is >>also worth considering how our use of language, i.e. 'toe-clipping' >>perpetuates the notion this is an innocuous practise, rather like the >>phrases 'beak-clipping' and 'beak-trimming', when in reality it is likely >>they are very painful procedures, at least in the short-term. Are we >>refusing to accept this and being self-protectionist by recoiling at >>using the word 'amputation'? >> >>Regards >> >>Chris Sherwin >>University of Bristol >> >> > >-- > ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 > From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 13-FEB-1998 13:52:23.28 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Appl-Ethol Net Dear All, Just wanted to say that I thought the recent messages on hunting deer using dogs was as excellent exchange. I have copied and made a handout of the messages for an exercise in my Animal Welfare class this semester. Granted the general controversy may not be settled, but the discussion was indeed a good example of how concepts from _ethology_ can be _applied_ to a welfare issue, not simply an exchange about an animal welfare topic. My thanks to the contributors, and my regards to all. Ray Stricklin ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin ws31@umail.umd.edu From: IN%"jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" "JANICE SWANSON" 13-FEB-1998 13:54:06.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Nimrod Damn you're right! It was Nabobs! I told you I was tired. Now do I need to rephrase my original statement to nabob rather than nimrod? But nimrod is more fitting so strike the reference to Spiro from the books but keep nimrod in the original statement. Gosh you are smart Dr. Cameron how do you manage on a Friday afternoon? Nimrods aside. Mench, Cameron and Rushen all make very good points. There are viewpoints within the U.S. that would like to see us take a heavy legislative route to tackle every issue regarding the welfare of animals. My observations over the years has led me to believe that laws are only as good as the people you convince to follow them and the budgets you provide agencies to enforce them. Also, the struggle of special interest groups in attaining political clout often clouds the objectives of improving animal welfare. There have been a number of animal welfare bills in this country that had good intentions but reflected silly logic in their written content. Janice Swanson > Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:14:36 -0500 (EST) > From: aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (D.B. Cameron) > Subject: Re: Nimrod > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Reply-to: aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (D.B. Cameron, DVM) > > Actually, Spero used the word Nabob (a rich Indian (from > India) magistrate, or a self-important small-time bureaucrat), > as in, "Nattering, nabobs, of negativism". > > > > > > > Reply to message from jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu of Fri, 13 Feb > > > >Jeff Rushen asked what a nimrod was. In common usage most folks > >use the term to describe a stupid very narrow-minded person. > >However, Nimrod is really a sportsman or hunter (Oxford American). > >[So Jeff, our former Vice President Spiro Agnew who used the term to > >describe our press was probably referring to the later definition and > >not the common use.] > > > >Janice > > > > > > -- > ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 > From: IN%"walker@cc.dixie.edu" "Curt Walker" 13-FEB-1998 14:03:22.01 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: toe cuttin Hey ethologists, This thread on toe clipping is interesting, here's my 2 cents: We don't and can't know what it feels like to a mouse or vole which has a toe or 2 chopped off. Their brains aren't even as big as the tip of my pinky, and are perfectly smooth, so lil surface area. No one knows how such a brain registers pain, all we can do is observe their reactions to "painful" stimuli. Presumably a mouse would work to prevent pain (ie, swim away from a hot platform), but we really have little idea what it FEELS like to them. Therefore, there are 2 schools of thought: 1. We don't know what it feels like, so don't worry about it, assume their little brains have very simple pain representations. 2. We don't know what it feels like, so assume it is just as painful as it is to human toes, so never harm any other creature with anything that might cause pain. In reality, we need perspective, as previously suggested. Animals will suffer every day, regardless of what humans do (ask the Thomson's gazelle how it feels to be suffocated by a cheetah). We should work to minimize the suffering which is probably caused by humans doing research, especially when the research is marginally beneficial to humans and/or the study species. But if it seems clear that a cure for cancer can be found if 140 baboons suffer and die from cancer in the next year, let's start collecting baboons! Curt Walker, PhD Dixie College St. George, UT From: IN%"jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" "JANICE SWANSON" 13-FEB-1998 14:15:16.66 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Perspective I am glad I 'm not you Curt. I can hardly wait to see the replies....Are there any ethicists out there?? From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 13-FEB-1998 14:46:59.09 To: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Nimrod & Pussyfooters I believe Spiro's greatest contribution to noteable-quoteable, redundant rhetoric was when he called the Press, "Pusillanimous pussyfooters." Oh, for the good-ole days in America when one could tell what a politician meant from what he said! Ray Stricklin On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:14:36 -0500 (EST) "D.B. Cameron" wrote: > > Actually, Spero used the word Nabob (a rich Indian (from > India) magistrate, or a self-important small-time bureaucrat), > as in, "Nattering, nabobs, of negativism". > > > > > > > Reply to message from jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu of Fri, 13 Feb > > > >Jeff Rushen asked what a nimrod was. In common usage most folks > >use the term to describe a stupid very narrow-minded person. > >However, Nimrod is really a sportsman or hunter (Oxford American). > >[So Jeff, our former Vice President Spiro Agnew who used the term to > >describe our press was probably referring to the later definition and > >not the common use.] > > > >Janice > > > > > > -- > ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin ws31@umail.umd.edu From: IN%"shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at" 13-FEB-1998 16:46:24.50 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: ality: "clip art" Janice Swanson wrote: > I have a wildlife biologist who is now successfully microchipping mice... ______________________________________________________________________ GOOD, but: A Provocative Question & Reality Talks: Does anybody have a rough estimate as to what percentage of small mammal trapping studies (live-trapping, because snap-trapping is another "hat") in a given period of time (eg. the last 30 years) are *NOT* based on the "toe-clipping" method? In my bibliographical compilation, I think that I have covered most existing references to small mammal trapping studies and it is almost complete regarding the studies on shrews (which certainly are among the most difficult species to mark because of their size and their small ears). I cannot give an exact figure now, but I suppose that about 90 percent of the CMR studies involve toe-clipping. (Usually mentioned in a very short and "small-fonted" sentence somewhere in the "Material & Methods" section, without comment.) I don't think that is worth the effort to really check whether the percentage is 90% or 70%. But if anybody insists on this, I will take the time to do so. (Of course this count only includes published papers. Theses, dissertations, unpublished reports etc. are not included. And as to my knowledge, anybody intending to use "Microchip-Implants" a.k.a. PIT-tags or INDEXEL etc. will have a hard time getting financial support for this). - The way I see it is that Animal Welfare in small mammal studies is simply a matter of providing financial background to give the respective researcher a possibility to use the appropriate methods. The methods are at hand. This is where "perspective" should start... Werner ======================================================================= Dr. Werner Haberl Editor, SHREW TALK (http://members.vienna.at/shrew/shrewtalk.html) Hamburgerstr. 11, A-1050 Vienna, Austria Email: shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at URL: http://members.vienna.at/shrew (The Shrew (ist's) Site) The Shrew Bibliography (> 6000 references) (also available on CD ROM) ======================================================================= From: IN%"belllm@stripe.Colorado.EDU" "Lorraine Bell" 13-FEB-1998 17:15:30.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: toe amputation On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Williams, Jennifer wrote: > from these studies? Knowledge should not have to come from inflicting > pain and/or discomfort on the species one is studying. Did you mean to say "long-term" pain and/or discomfort here? Otherwise you are saying that studies which involve trapping/darting/ or otherwise handling animals should not be conducted since these procedures clearly cause some level of pain and/or distress in the animal. If you believe that some level of pain or discomfort is acceptable how do you determine the "cut-off" point? If you believe that no pain or discomfort is acceptable, then is there some amount of "interference" that is acceptable or are all studies other than strictly observational ones unethical? Lorraine Bell From: IN%"jamench@ucdavis.edu" "Joy A. Mench" 13-FEB-1998 17:45:26.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology'" CC: Subj: RE: toe amputation ---------- >>Chris Sherwin wrote: > >Joy asks what alternatives would I suggest. Is refusal to permit the >study an option? Is this not possibly a case of scientists doing >something because they can, rather than because they should? As with most >considerations on the ethics of animal use, one really needs to understand >the potential benefits of the study; In fact, that was one of the points I was trying to make. Prohibiting this procedure entirely without considering the benefits seems premature to me, particularly considering how little is known about the pain (and effects on survival and reproduction) associated with the procedure in every species. If a demonstrable animal welfare benefit could result (e.g understanding patterns of habitat use in threatened species that would improve their survival), this should be considered. > > However, would a study examining >the daily movements of rare Mountain gorillas be approved if the only >method of identification was to partially remove their fingers? I suspect >not, despite the probability that after a period of time the gorillas >would probably show little sign of pain or distress. Why then should this >be allowed for another mammal species simply because it is smaller? Gorillas and other primate species use their hands extensively to manipulate their enviroment. This is not true for many small mammals and amphibians. As a corrolary, it might also be true that digits evolved for manipulation are more highly sensitive and ennervated (?I don't know anything about pain physiology, so this is pure speculation on my part, just designed to stir up the troops). Surely these differences would be another factor to consider when weighing the costs and benefits (our preferences and fellow-feelings for charismatic megavertebrates aside). > >Regarding sensitivity and pain experienced by animals after amputation. >Joy is correct in stating that amputation does not necessarily cause >long-term pain. It is a while since I have looked at MikeUs work on >toe-clipping, but I seem to remember that this practice led to the >development of neuromas. Mike Gentle (Res. Vet Sci 45:374-376) found that healing and neural regeneration were very rapid in de-toed chicks. He did find some small simple neuromas, but suggested that they were of the type that (in humans) were mechanically sensitive but "rarely a problem" (whatever that means). He did also find suggestive evidence that the amputation itself would likely be unpleasant if performed without anesthesia. This would certainly be an argument for providing anesthesia and analgesia, but is not a strong argument for prohibiting the procedure entirely. I hope that no one interprets this to think that I am a fan of toe-clipping!! Our animal care and use committee has put enormous amounts of time into investigating and implementing alternatives to this procedure. If anyone has recommendations for alternatives to the situations I described before, under circumstances where the committee has judged the research to be sound and of benefit, I would be grateful to hear about them. Joy Mench From: IN%"csunsay@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu" "Ceyhun Sunsay" 13-FEB-1998 17:46:37.36 To: IN%"belllm@stripe.Colorado.EDU" "Lorraine Bell" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: toe amputation We use rats as subjects. Sometimes we make surgery. Even though if we don't, we sacrifice them eventually. I think there is nothing wrong with this. Yes, we give them pain but eventually they save our own lifes. They saved people more than 911 did. At UPenn researchers are carrying an experiment. Participants-humans- are given a drug and they get nausea for 30 min. Some people are concerned about handling rats since they feel stress. This is I think ridicilous. On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Lorraine Bell wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Williams, Jennifer wrote: > > > from these studies? Knowledge should not have to come from inflicting > > pain and/or discomfort on the species one is studying. > > Did you mean to say "long-term" pain and/or discomfort here? Otherwise > you are saying that studies which involve trapping/darting/ or otherwise > handling animals should not be conducted since these procedures clearly > cause some level of pain and/or distress in the animal. > > If you believe that some level of pain or discomfort is acceptable how do > you determine the "cut-off" point? If you believe that no pain or > discomfort is acceptable, then is there some amount of "interference" that > is acceptable or are all studies other than strictly observational ones > unethical? > > Lorraine Bell > > > From: IN%"terryg@tamu.edu" "Terry Gruber" 13-FEB-1998 17:50:44.14 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Conference at Texas A&M Women in Science and Engineering (WISE) at Texas A&M holds a yearly conference with speakers usually being scientists or engineers who pass on important career advice. For example, last year Dr. Carolyn Hunsaker talked about the importance of joining and being active in professional societies. Following is a small blurb about this year's conference and where to look on the web for more information. If you're in the area, please join us. This is to announce the upcoming annual WISE conference that will take place on 21 February 1998 at the MSC on the campus of Texas A&M University. This year's conference is entitled "Designing Your Career" and will feature speakers from around the country, and topics such as organiztional skills for the absent minded professor, getting in the back door when the front door is closed, scoping strategies for high pressure careers, learning/defining professional behavior, and smart moves for ensuring success. The full details for the conference may be found on our website at http://www-ocean.tamu.edu/~wise/ There is also a printable registration form on the website. We have a grand program developed again this year and think you wil enjoy the insight and information provided by the speakers. Also, on Friday evening, for the pre-conference reception, we will be entertained by The Physics Chanteuse -- this promises to be a singing, dancing, laughing extravaganza all set to a science theme! In addition, this year we will have representatives from various companies present to interact with the participants. Companies who have confirmed are GTE, Schlumberger, Texas Instruments, Bayer and DuPont. Others are pending. These representatives will have booths set up and will be accepting resumes. Hope you can join us!! Feel free to contact me if you have questions or concerns. Nancy Magnussen, PhD Director, Learning Resources Center Director, Women in Science and Engineering Safety Coordinator Dean's Office, College of Science Texas A&M University College Station, Texas 77843-3257 409-845-5587 FAX 409-845-6077 nancy@isc.tamu.edu From: IN%"shale@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu" 13-FEB-1998 20:10:09.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"shale@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Toe cuttin In-reply-to: <1.5.4.32.19980213201216.0070c698@cc.dixie.edu> Curt wrote: > . . . Therefore, there are 2 schools of thought: 1. We don't know what > it feels like, so don't worry about it, assume their little brains have very > simple pain representations. > 2. We don't know what it feels like, so assume it is just as painful as it > is to human toes, so never harm any other creature with anything that might > cause pain. It's logically possible that non-human animals feel more pain than human animals (insofar as pain is quantifiable), and of course the conditions under which the pain is felt can alter the degree of painfulness. Given the difficulty of measuring pain and the limited ability of humans to empathize with non-human sentient beings (whether the limitation is a choice or an inherent flaw in human cognition), it seems better to err on the side of minimizing pain to others. "Better" may seem vague, but given recent studies suggesting that altruism promotes survival, minimizing suffering (and of course needless slaughter) may in the long run be the most pragmatic, as well as the kindest, path. > But if it seems clear that a cure for cancer can be found if 140 baboons > suffer and die from cancer in the next year, let's start collecting baboons! At the risk of sounding mystical, I'm not sure the universe is set up so that infecting baboons with cancer brings about more good than evil. A researcher arguing that causing pain to one animal will reduce pain in another animal is a little like a habitual smoker rationalizing his addiction by claiming that smoking keeps him from overeating. Incidentally, the white researchers in the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male argued that withholding treatment from the 400 men in their study would benefit blacks in general. (It didn't.) --Steven Hale From: IN%"chris.gotman@sympatico.ca" 13-FEB-1998 20:48:22.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: toe clipping -- medium long reply Greetings. In this discussion of marking small vertebrates through toe clippings, I've yet to see a viable alternative. (a) Subcutaneous transponders. If these are the same size as we've used on our captive snakes (roughly 5 mm in length) then these are huge in relation to the size of a small vertebrate. It would require longer and perhaps more painfull manipulations to inject relative to an amputation. Then there is the irritation to the animal. The transponder forms a distinct bump. In one case with our snakes, I noticed just such a bump, and suspected it to be an abcess or a cyst until I realized it was a transponder. On a whitetail deer I had nurtured and released I once found a large raised wart -- a month later she had amputated it on her own. This suggest to me the possibility that small vertebrates may attempt to remove their transponder, which implies long term irritation to the animal, both mental and physical. And then there is the cost of the transponders. I doubt small vertebrate researchers are inondated with grants. (b) Ear Tagging. Again a large invasive foreign body. Tags on our ungulates are frequently lost, either through chewing by conspecifics or snagging on fences, feed troughs, etc. Snagging often results in a torn ear. Even the tag isn't yanked off, snagging will cause physical trauma such as bruising and small tears. I personaly never hope to wear an earring. Ear tags can and do cause discomfort to some individuals. One of our does, now that she is burdened with an ear tag, habitually lowers that ear. The tag's point of entry into the ear easily accumulates dirt, which can lead to infection. Small vertebrates generally live in habitat that requires them to squeeze through small cracks, holes and such the like. I would suspect this would increase the likelihood that they would snag their tag. (c) Banding? I didn't notice mention of this option. Non-invasive, but with the same snag potential as an ear tag. Could be lethal if snagged animal can't break free. (d) Collar? Same considerations as (c). (e) Dyeing, bleaching, shaving. Very temporary. (f) Toe clipping. Loss of a few digits would probably be a lot less traumatizing than to find oneself with a foreign body grafted to some part of one's anatomy. As one person pointed out, small vertebrates generally do not rely on independant finger movements to manipulate objects. Thus a paw with one less digit is just as efficient as the original item. Many rodents and amphibians have evolved members graced with fewer than the ancestral five digits. The stub resulting from an amputaion is recessed behind the remaining digits, and is thus unlikely to have healing delayed by repeated physical trauma. With an amputation, there is no annoying foreign object to chew, pull or shake. In school, where I helped in a capture-recapture study involving woodland jumping mice (Napaeozapus insignis), it was suggested to me that digit amputation occurs naturally in wild populations of mice. (g) Ear punctures. Same considerations as (f). (h) Tattoos. This may be feasable, if the tattooing device is reliable, can make sufficiently small and destinguishable tattoos, and if there is an adequate unfurred area on the test subject for the tattoo. Might be too delicate an operation. I feel that toe clipping is the most practical, the most reliable, the least expensive, and the least traumatising to the test subject of all the options discussed (or not discussed) so far. sincerely, Chris Gotman Quebec, Canada Granby zoo. From: IN%"v8350@bealenet.com" 13-FEB-1998 20:50:02.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: [Fwd: Chopin] Dear Mary, Your message to the applied ethology list has been passed to me by a staff member at the Open University, UK. I really can't comment on the practice of toe removal in small mammals as I have no knowledge of this technique in that group. I would have thought that it causes considerably more discomfort, loss of mobility etc. to mammals than it does in amphibians. With regards to amphibians, the technique is indeed sometimes used and can represent an effective (though temporary) marking technique. Be assured that ethical amphibian researchers ARE concerned about the effects that this has on their study subjects and there has in the past been heated debate about its effects on (for example) survival and reproductive success. The general feeling these days seems to be that there are now several (better) techniques for amphibian marking (such as the photography of individual patternation, electronic tagging etc.) which are considered much more ethical and are indeed potentially much more effective over a longer period. Long-term studies on amphibian populations in which individual animals can be identified can be vital for conservation programs. So, although the technique was once very widely used, the movement is away from it and, although there is no experimental evidence that it does affect survival etc., the practice is (in many countries, such as the UK) strictly regulated and carried out only under licence by responsible researchers who have hopefully provided a valid rationale for its use. "Humaneness" of the techniques to be employed in a study do indeed frequently impact on whether funding is given to a particular research program. Personally, although I might consider the toe-clipping of (for example) toads if this was the best way of assessing (eg.) the reasons for the decline of a rare species, I could not envisage any circumstances where I would be happy carrying out this procedure on a mammal. Finally, amphibians which have been toe-clipped do regrow their lost toes (regrowth can be considerable over one annual cycle) and in this relatively long-lived group (eg. many amphibians live 12 years or even much longer) there is no lasting harm. I hope this has helped to answer some of your questions. Please forward it to the list if you like and if I can be of further assistance drop me an e-mail. Regards, John Wilkinson, International Coordinator - Declining Amphibian populations Task Force. From: IN%"jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp" "Janice Willard" 13-FEB-1998 21:44:51.73 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: toe clipping and mobsters I can't resist joining this discussion with the observation that humans do engage in voluntary, self-inflicted, toe-clipping. The Yakuza of Japan, the Japanese organized crime underground, will frequently cut off a finger to "show resolve or self-chastisement for a failed assignment." I have seen them here in Japan, and while there is a Yakuza house in my neighborhood, I will admit, that even in the interests of science, I am not inclined to approach them to ask them about long-term discomfort..... I do think that Curt and others have made some very valid points that to compare a human reaction to the loss of a finger to that of another species is not entirely valid. Certianly it would hurt us--but we evolved to use our fingers to a large degree and there is a great deal of efferent and afferent nervous involvement. And cost benefit ratios are also needed. I know that some people object to cutting tails from lambs. And certianly, it does cause them pain. But when I have missed a lamb tail and that lamb grew up, the tailed sheep is of a much greater risk for getting fly-strike--where fly larva burrow into the moist wool under the tail and eventually into the animal itself, sometimes killing it and certianly causing a great deal more discomfort than the initial tail cutting did. And the sooner after birth that I cut the tails, the less discomfort it seemed to cause. So if you look at the single event in time, it looks like I am brutalizing little baby lambs, when I am in fact saving them from eventual greater harm. This is why, I think, Janice Swanson has some very important comments for me. She said: >My observations over the years has led me to >believe that laws are only as good as the people you convince to >follow them and the budgets you provide agencies to enforce them. This is absolutely true. Here in Japan, there are laws governing animal welfare--and pretty good laws, too, if they were followed. However, the laws have no teeth. In otherwords, they say what an animal care-taker "should" do with regards to animal care but make no allowance for inspection, confiscation or penalty if they are not followed (there are groups in Japan working to change this at this time). >Also, the struggle of special interest groups in attaining political >clout often clouds the objectives of improving animal welfare. There >have been a number of animal welfare bills in this country that had >good intentions but reflected silly logic in their written content. > "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." (sorry, I forgot the author) Not only that, I don't think that we can pass laws that cover everything, because our understanding is always changing. We shouldn't just respond to the emotional ("it would hurt me if someone cut off my finger", which is a valid observation, but not really the question. The question is, how much does it hurt the shrew?) or the absolutely rational and we will always be walking a tightrope of opinion and scientific knowledge. Therefore, the best we can hope for is to develop a *Process* of evaluating animal welfare and scientific merit because the "process" (like animal care committees) can respond to a changing knowledge base, and laws can not. *************************************************************************** Janice Willard, DVM MS Machida-shi, Tokyo, Japan Phone/FAX (81)427-29-4519 jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp From: IN%"v8350@bealenet.com" 13-FEB-1998 22:18:19.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: [Fwd: toe-clipping] Return-path: Received: from mhub2.tc.umn.edu (mhub2.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.52]) by bge.bealenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA23929 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:17:13 -0500 Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub2.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 13 Feb 98 17:17:09 -0600 Received: from localhost by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 13 Feb 98 17:17:09 -0600 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:17:09 -0600 (CST) From: Kristin M Kramer Subject: toe-clipping To: v8350@bealenet.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi - I wanted to respond to your question about toe-clipping small mammals. I am on a mammal listserve group and someone forwarded your message to our list. I would have tried to post it on your listserve (applied ecology) but apparently the info we got on sending it there isn't correct. Feel free to forward my comments to your listserve if you wish. I worked as a field assistant on a population study of meadow voles. We routinely toe-clipped as a means of identification of individual animals. In my opinion - toe-clipping did not seem to be as stressful to the vole as it might be to you or I. That is just my impression - I have no data to back that up. I am basing that on the typical reaction of the voles to toe-clipping which was the same squeal they let out when being handled at all. We frequently retrapped animals that had been toe-clipped and I never saw any indication of infection - past or present. Toe-clipping is falling out of favor and ear tags are being used more often. And yes - funding and publication of research both depend upon humane treatment of animals. All procedures have to be passed through an Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee. Grants (NIH etc) require this as do universities. I do not like ear tags for the reason that some small mammals live and move through the litter layer on the ground and it seems likely to me that ear tags will get ripped out by vegetation. In that case - no recapture data for that animal since you would no longer be able to i.d. it. This means that not only have you put it through pain (similar to that of toe-clipping) in the process of tagging the animal - but that there is nothing to be gained from it in terms of data. My opinion is that if you are going to put an animal through stress or pain that at least it helps you learn something about its ecology. If ear tags rip out - you have put the animal through pain of piercing and pain of ripping it out - for nothing. I had a captive colony of rodents for some time that were ear tagged. They were maintained in standard rat cages with sawdust bedding. I had to retag a lot of them because their tags ripped out. How I do not know - perhaps they were bored and messed with the tags enough. I never saw any of them rip out but they did routinely. If that happens in cages with nothing but sawdust bedding - I am sure it happens frequently to mice in the field. Just my opinion (and not those of U of MN!).... Kristin Kramer Dept. of Ecology, Evolution, and Behavior University of Minnesota St. Paul, MN 55108 From: IN%"fnmaf@aurora.alaska.edu" "Melissa A Fleming" 13-FEB-1998 22:36:41.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: toe clipping -- semi-long defense of First, I'd like to thank Chris Gottman for an educated reply to this issue. Second, I'd like to suggest that none of us knows how the animal "feels" about transponders vs. eartags vs. toeclipping, but it is important to understand that mice are unlikely to feel like salmon are, salmon are unlikely to feel like pigeons are, and pigeons are unlikely to feel like us about it. That is not to say that mice, salmon, and pigeons don't have feelings or feel pain as intensely as we do, but rather that their feelings are not "like" our feelings, nor will they necessarily feel pain as intense as we do under a particular circumstance (or vise versa!). All we, who are stuck with human feelings, have to go on is our intuition about what other species feel or find important, and given that intuition is a product of experience (about what we feel and with the behavior etc. of particular species), we are all going to have different opinions on the topic. I'm willing to contend that other animals probably feel physical pain very much as we do, to the extent that they have similar nervous and sensory systems - which applies to small animals. They probably experience similar "feelings" too, to the extent that having the ability to be annoyed or comfortable is adaptive in an evolutionary sense (i.e., feeling "annoyed" is a good proximate stimulus for prompting an animal to avoid a debilitating situation - as in persistently attempting to remove parasites). This also applies to small mammals. But I would also argue that toe-clipping is a very minor injury and annoyance in the grand scheme of what a wild animal - particularly a small mammal - has to contend with in nature - disease, starvation, predation, competition, exposure. Having live-trapped a number of small mammals for a variety of reasons over the years, I can say that even the healthiest of them showed indications of one or more of the above (scars, sores, ticks, viruses). And as Chris suggested, a vole missing a toe would probably simply be "ecstatic" that he/she escaped. Chris already made a number of points that I could, especially regarding the hypothetical cost/benefit equations of brief restraint & toe-clipping vs. other methods that may involve prolonged handling (psychological pain?) and greater long-term risks (external markers that snag on undergrowth and/or make the animal more obvious to its predators). But my primary point in writing was to defend my profession. The vast majority of field biologists DO care about animal suffering and know quite a bit about how much is human-induced vs. "naturally" induced. And we do not go around "mutilating" animals because it is a convenient way to conduct research for the sole purpose of satisfying our egos or curiousity. A number of laymen who voice concerns about biologists' activities seem to have this strange idea, and I don't understand where they get it. More often than not, field research involving toe-clipping does benefit the animals - for example, but documenting population fluctuations or dispersal patterns that are important considerations in determining overall environmental health of an area or conservation plans for the small mammals and other species. This is the way we get information to determine policies regarding impacts of natural resource extraction, pollution, global warming, wilderness & conservation reserve planning. The marking methods chosen for a study are the ones that work best on a particular animal and answer the questions - markers that don't wear off/fall off and that don't lead directly or indirectly to the mortality of the marked animal (which would be just as bad for the study as the marker falling off!). Different marking methods are appropriate for different animals, different studies - and sometimes toe-clipping still seems to be the method that will accomplish the study goals the best and hinder the animal the least. Ideally, we don't want marking methods that make the animal uncomfortable any more than "you" do because an uncomfortable animal isn't going to behave normally. For reasons Chris mentioned, toe-clipping small rodents, at least, does not seem to annoy/hinder/harm them as much as other existing methods do. Thanks for reading a long reply, Melissa Melissa A. Fleming, Ph.D. Mammalogy, University of Alaska Museum 907 Yukon Drive Fairbanks, AK 99775 USA Phone: 907-474-7994 FAX: 907-474-5469 Email: fnmaf@aurora.alaska.edu From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 14-FEB-1998 11:39:34.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors annual review of cases Dear all, The Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors annual review of cases for 1997 is now available on the web. Go to: http://webzone1.co.uk/www/apbc/report97.htm#TOP Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://webzone1.co.uk/www/apbc/pbc.htm ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"darvfh@ULETH.CA" 14-FEB-1998 16:24:20.38 To: IN%"fnmaf@aurora.alaska.edu" "Melissa A Fleming" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: toe clipping -- animal rights I think the greatest priority concerning other organisms should be one of conservation. If our methods necessarily entail suffering, then so be it. It is not the suffering inflicted on other animals by researchers that concerns me. I have faith(i do mean faith) in the scientific community. What really bothers me is the impact on the planet as a whole humans are having. How many species have we driven into extinction already? I could ask more questions of this sort but you know what i'm referring to. My question is that given the influence we have on the planet and on the organisms we share it with and our cognitive ability to coordinate our behavior(this may be a false assumption), do we not have a responsibility to fulfill? Even if we did not inherit the earth by the work some great design, shouldn't we act as though we did? I think we should scrap the idea of animal rights and talk about human responsibility. Don't get me wrong, i think suffering is an important issue but there are other things going on in the world. Animals have to be alive in order to suffer and the way i see it many of them, including a great number of our own species is in jeopardy. As David Suzuki puts it there are three fundamental requirements to life - land, air, and water. And we take them all for granted and thus contaminate them thus putting insurmountable pressures on all life. It is my impression that everyone who will read this letter knows this and realizes the urgency with which these matters should be addressed. But are significant measures being taken? Are we with the knowledge of the repercussions of our actions honoring our responsibility? Am I deluded or is my distress warranted? From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 14-FEB-1998 17:32:31.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Toe cuttin Just to quantify your questions: Having practiced veterinary medicine for 35 years or so, and having observed, as objectively as possible, thousands of dogs, cats, and miscellaneous others with all manner of injuries both accidental and purposeful (surgery), I can attest to the following with, in my opinion, 100% certainty: - All the animals that I have encountered do feel pain. - The threshold of pain in these animals was invariably higher than I have observed (and experienced) in humans. That is, given a broken femur, a severe skin tear, a major abdominal surgical procedure, etc., the animals that I have observed were reliably less reactive to manipulation, more active in a normal manner (walking, etc.), less distressingly vocal, less shocky than a similarly injured human. This phenomenon could be attributed to cognisence (conscious realization of personal injury), and probably, to a degree this is a factor, but I doubt that it is more than a minor factor in external signs of discomfort. Reply to message from shale@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu of Fri, 13 Feb > >In-reply-to: <1.5.4.32.19980213201216.0070c698@cc.dixie.edu> > > >Curt wrote: > >> . . . Therefore, there are 2 schools of thought: 1. We don't know what >> it feels like, so don't worry about it, assume their little brains have very >> simple pain representations. >> 2. We don't know what it feels like, so assume it is just as painful as it >> is to human toes, so never harm any other creature with anything that might >> cause pain. > >It's logically possible that non-human animals feel more pain than human >animals (insofar as pain is quantifiable), and of course the conditions >under which the pain is felt can alter the degree of painfulness. Given >the difficulty of measuring pain and the limited ability of humans to >empathize with non-human sentient beings (whether the limitation is a >choice or an inherent flaw in human cognition), it seems better to err on >the side of minimizing pain to others. "Better" may seem vague, but >given recent studies suggesting that altruism promotes survival, >minimizing suffering (and of course needless slaughter) may in the long >run be the most pragmatic, as well as the kindest, path. > > >> But if it seems clear that a cure for cancer can be found if 140 baboons >> suffer and die from cancer in the next year, let's start collecting baboons! > >At the risk of sounding mystical, I'm not sure the universe is set up so >that infecting baboons with cancer brings about more good than evil. A >researcher arguing that causing pain to one animal will reduce pain in >another animal is a little like a habitual smoker rationalizing his >addiction by claiming that smoking keeps him from overeating. > >Incidentally, the white researchers in the Tuskegee Study of Untreated >Syphilis in the Negro Male argued that withholding treatment from >the 400 men in their study would benefit blacks in general. (It didn't.) > >--Steven Hale > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"skolb@treko.net.au" "Steve Kolb" 14-FEB-1998 22:19:58.53 To: IN%"darvfh@uleth.ca" "'darvfh@uleth.ca'" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" Subj: RE: toe clipping -- animal rights On 15 February, 1998 6:24 AM, Fred Darveau [SMTP:darvfh@uleth.ca] wrote: >> What really bothers me is the impact on the planet as a whole humans are > having. How many species have we driven into extinction already? I could ask > more questions of this sort but you know what i'm referring to. My question > is that given the influence we have on the planet and on the organisms we > share it with and our cognitive ability to coordinate our behavior(this may be > a false assumption), do we not have a responsibility to fulfill? Even if we > did not inherit the earth by the work some great design, shouldn't we act as > though we did? I think we should scrap the idea of animal rights and talk > about human responsibility. > Don't get me wrong, i think suffering is an important issue but there are > other things going on in the world. Animals have to be alive in order to > suffer and the way i see it many of them, including a great number of our own > species is in jeopardy. As David Suzuki puts it there are three fundamental > requirements to life - land, air, and water. And we take them all for granted > and thus contaminate them thus putting insurmountable pressures on all life. > It is my impression that everyone who will read this letter knows this and > realizes the urgency with which these matters should be addressed. But are > significant measures being taken? Are we with the knowledge of the > repercussions of our actions honoring our responsibility? > Am I deluded or is my distress warranted? Your distress is warranted, but sadly I think too many people are egocentric, uneducated or too tied up with religious dogma to care. The few who do clearly see whats happening are overwhelmed by those who don't. So its a really sad story. The pope still preaches against contraception, even though its obvious that many more species will perish so that we can support the projected 10 billion people, when the planet is overloaded with 6 billion. As the smartest of the species, we should be able to use our intellect to create a happy little planet for all involved. But sadly, the instinctive primate in us will see to it that most will only be concerned with their own short term self interest until the proverbial "s.....t" hits the fan and its too late to turn back the clock. Steve Kolb From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 14-FEB-1998 23:46:54.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Boys, Girls and What We Call Them Hello all. Time for another riot by introducing people stuff. Bill Spriggs has a thoughtful breakdown of the diagnostics tree on the basis of gender differences in varied "disorders." His work is at http://www.evoyage.com/genderdifferences.htm. Anyone reading this (or writing it!) at this time of the evening is apt t= o be manic (sleep disturbance, very bright, territorial, and high verbal output). Bill wants your kind of talent and experience to look at his stuff and comment. I personally have an abiding faith in clinical sociobiology. The rules about starlings apply to all of us; thus, your insights will be valued by= both of us. Many thanks, Jim Brody From: IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu" "Kale H. McE. Kevan" 15-FEB-1998 16:12:56.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: toe cuttin All right, I shall stop lurking. I am about to complete my undergraduate work in philosophy this term. I'm interested in theories of cognition in both humans and non-human animals, hence my interest in this list, but I've got a reasonably good background in ethics (or so I like to think). Philosophers in general tend to be argumentative to the point of rudeness, please don't take it personally. On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Curt Walker wrote: > We don't and can't know what it feels like to a mouse or vole which has a > toe or 2 chopped off. Their brains aren't even as big as the tip of my > pinky, and are perfectly smooth, so lil surface area. As I understand it, the part of the brain that registers pain is a 'primitive' part which we humans share with dumb things like fishes and amphibians. Folds on the cortex (? outer part of the brain) don't have anything to do with it. School of thought 1: > 1. We don't know what > it feels like, so don't worry about it, assume their little brains have very > simple pain representations. strikes me as irresponsible. Following this logic it would be acceptable for me to cut the toes off my Japanese neighbor because he cannot tell me in a language that I understand that it is painful to him, aside from struggling, fighting and making a horrid noise. I imagine a mouse does these things as well. Taking it further, it would even be acceptable for me to cut -your- toes off, since I do not know how pain feels to you. It's possible that you enjoy it emmensely but have been conditioned by your psychiatrist (in an attept to cure you of your twisted masochistic tendancies) to react as if it is unpleasant in the extreme. > But if it seems clear that a cure for cancer can be found if 140 baboons > suffer and die from cancer in the next year, let's start collecting baboons! 'Greater good' isn't an entirely appropriate justification either. If we were to take a number of human infants, raise them in an environment deviod of the influences of human culture and toss them as young children on a deserted island a la 'Lord of the Flies' to see what sort of people they grew up to be, it would shed a great light onto the question of human nature. Enormous advances in the fields of Anthropology and Sociology could be made. That data might allow us to end crime and other social problems that cause the rest of humanity great suffering. This experiment would be unethical, despite the good that would likely result. This is because we consider human beings to be free agents, autonomous. As such they have rights, and in western thought the rights of the individual hold a greater weight than the good of the group. Rights are, of course, limited for the good of the group (I might autonomously decide to start sniping at people from my bedroom window, but I don't have the right to do so) and may also be forfited as a punishment (if I do start sniping at people I'll go to prison) but we try to be fair about such stuff - all humans supposedly have the same rights. I'd be violating the rights of my group of hypothetical children, as well as causing them harm, and this is wrong. Animals, on the other hand, are not considered to be free agents. They don't have rights. (I'm not saying that they shouldn't, just that we haven't given them any.) At most, we have responsiblities towards them. We may cull deer from an overpopulated area for the good of the group, and we don't have to worry about the rights of the individual deer who is unlucky enough to get killed. Okay. Having considered all this I still can't say if toe-clipping is right or wrong. So far as I know, nobody has made a comprehensive list of just what responsibilities human beings have towards other animals. If you think your responsibilities include not causing individual animals pain, I suggest you become a vegetarian and not mark small animals by means of toe-clipping. If you consider your responsibility to be towards animals as species rather than individuals, toe-clipping is a morally neutral or possibly good act. Has anyone tried nitrogen-branding as a means of marking small rodents? Supposedly this is painless because the nerve endings are frozen before they can register the sensation. It is permanent and would leave marks that would probably be easier to read than clipped toes, and would not hinder the animal in digging or climbing as clipped toes might. Expense might be a problem? K. From: IN%"aae763@agora.ulaval.ca" "Alain Rivet" 15-FEB-1998 18:30:27.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Mystical rambling... >At the risk of sounding mystical, I'm not sure the universe is set up so=20 >that infecting baboons with cancer brings about more good than evil. ???? I don't think the universe is set up in any way towards good or evil. Those are arbitrary concepts. Questions like: "Is it good or evil to kill someone" will never be answered scientifically and is simply not the issue. I am not saying that scientists should not be concerned about moral issues...In fact, nothing scares me most than an amoral scientist and I don't think science is viable unless set between moral boundaries. But, as a scientist, I can't answer questions concerning good or evil and I'm sure that as far as the universe is concerned, we could blow up the whole planet and it wouldn't care a bit.=20 As a society, we have determined that research on animal was acceptable if it helped us to solve problems that we considered greater. (Even this is questionable and subject to interpretations. Who agrees with the fact that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a good thing since it helped to save many more lives than the ones those bombing took?) This might (and must, in my (arbitrary) opinion) be questionned and reevaluated as we discover more about animal cognition but as far as I know, baboons do not feel the same level of distress when infected with cancer than a human does so I think it makes research on cancer with animals ethically acceptable if done properly. The only thing we can do as scientists is to help set those moral boundaries restricting our researches with all the objectivity= possible. Sorry if it was too far from the original subject. I tried to remain as concise as I could ;-) Alain Rivet Universit=E9 Laval From: IN%"fentress@is.dal.ca" 15-FEB-1998 18:53:43.26 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"aae763@agora.ulaval.ca" "Alain Rivet" CC: Subj: Science and ethics touch, but are not clones I think that Alain hit an important nail on the head. As scientists we need to be concerned with (and live by) moral/ethical standards, but our field in itself has nothing directly to say. Its rather like neurobiological models of consciousness (cf. Crick, Churchland). Mechanisms that constrain, alter, and even dictate (allow) consciousness can surely be found, but the basic phenomenology remains elusive. A rose smells like a rose smells like a rose. Science can help us make INFORMED moral judgements, but can't, in the final analysis FORM those judgements. We get in trouble (logical oxymorons, or at least morons) when we tangle these domains. Its not that science is irrelevant. Its relevant within an ethical context that has other essential foundations. We might, someday, even be able to say something about the how and why people form these ethical guidelines, but that in itself will not allow us to judge them - any more than we can say that ice is better or worse than boiling water. John Fentress nothing scares me{more} than an amoral scientist and I > don't think science is viable unless set between moral boundaries. But, as > a scientist, I can't answer questions concerning good or evil and I'm sure > that as far as the universe is concerned, we could blow up the whole planet > and it wouldn't care a bit. John C. Fentress, Ph.D. Departments of Psychology & Neuroscience Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia CANADA B3H 4J1 lab: 902 494-3603 fax: 902 494-6585 From: IN%"aae763@agora.ulaval.ca" "Alain Rivet" 15-FEB-1998 22:08:28.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: toe cuttin >On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Curt Walker wrote: > >> We don't and can't know what it feels like to a mouse or vole which has a >> toe or 2 chopped off. Their brains aren't even as big as the tip of my >> pinky, and are perfectly smooth, so lil surface area. =20 > >As I understand it, the part of the brain that registers pain is a >'primitive' part which we humans share with dumb things like fishes and >amphibians. Folds on the cortex (? outer part of the brain) don't have >anything to do with it.=20 In fact, I think it does. Some neurophysiologists in here could correct me if I'm wrong but from what I recall, the cortex is responsible for perception. We are not even sure that 'dumb' animals (without cortex) even feel pain at all. The cortex is also in charge of memorisation. So, if those animals feel pain, they won't remember it once it's over. So you can't compare pain felt by those animals with pain felt by humans (who suffer from an hypertrophy of the cortex, compared to all the other animals.) Toe-cutting could be no more stressful than being catched or handled for 'cortex-free' animals. >strikes me as irresponsible. Following this logic it would be acceptable >for me to cut the toes off my Japanese neighbor because he cannot tell me >in a language that I understand that it is painful to him, aside from >struggling, fighting and making a horrid noise. I imagine a mouse does >these things as well. Taking it further, it would even be acceptable for >me to cut -your- toes off, since I do not know how pain feels to you. It's >possible that you enjoy it emmensely but have been conditioned by your >psychiatrist (in an attept to cure you of your twisted masochistic >tendancies) to react as if it is unpleasant in the extreme. Please! Let us stay serious...Again, the degree of conceptualization of a human being when pain is inflicted unto him is millions of years away in term of evolution from what the mouse or shrew is able to do.=20 We have to keep those kind of arguments very close to earth if we ever want to be able to convince the public that what we do is serious and by doing that, help the animals to get a better life. If we compare the mental processes of mice and humans, we'll loose all credibility (and we already sound way too much romantic for most people). Alain Rivet Universit=E9 Laval From: IN%"shale@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu" 15-FEB-1998 23:01:39.02 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: The image of ethologists (re: toe cutting) On Feb 15, Alan Rivet wrote: >The cortex is also in charge of memorisation. So, if >those animals feel pain, they won't remember it once it's over. Depends on what you mean by "remember." I would think that pain stimulus could alter behavior (and perhaps alter affect or emotion) long after the stimulus had passed. ... >We have to keep those kind of arguments very close to earth if we ever want >to be able to convince the public that what we do is serious and by doing >that, help the animals to get a better life. If we compare the mental >processes of mice and humans, we'll loose all credibility (and we already >sound way too much romantic for most people). I'm not an ethologist, but I have a tremendous respect for the work of many ethologists, based on what I've read on this list. I would think that nowadays the educated public is seeking to understand the similarities between mice and humans, hence the popularity of Jeffrey Masson's When Elephants Weep. While the romantic tendency to project one's own feelings onto nature is certainly not scientific, neither is the a priori denial of shared feelings between human and nonhuman animals. From: IN%"fnmaf@aurora.alaska.edu" "Melissa A Fleming" 15-FEB-1998 23:28:44.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Toe cuttin On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, D.B. Cameron wrote: > > Just to quantify your questions: > Having practiced veterinary medicine for 35 years or so, > and having observed, as objectively as possible, thousands of > dogs, cats, and miscellaneous others with all manner of injuries > both accidental and purposeful (surgery), I can attest to the > following with, in my opinion, 100% certainty: > - All the animals that I have encountered do feel pain. > - The threshold of pain in these animals was invariably > higher than I have observed (and experienced) in humans. That is, > given a broken femur, a severe skin tear, a major abdominal > surgical procedure, etc., the animals that I have observed > were reliably less reactive to manipulation, more active in a > normal manner (walking, etc.), less distressingly vocal, less > shocky than a similarly injured human. > This phenomenon could be attributed to cognisence > (conscious realization of personal injury), and probably, to a > degree this is a factor, but I doubt that it is more than a > minor factor in external signs of discomfort. > An alternative hypothesis: A physiologist friend noted the remarkably speedy recovery of normal behavior in rats that had undergone surgery and suggested that it was not necessarily because the rats were not in as much physical pain as a human would be, but because rats and other species may be under stronger selection to not appear weakened, distressed or injured even when they are. Makes some sense - in many societies, humans get a lot of help and comfort from others when they are in pain (what about societies where "stoicism" is more valued?), and this isn't necessarily true in other species in which competitors and predators may be more likely to take advantage of an injured animal. If my physiologist friend is right, I suppose the mechanism could be less "cognisence"...but non-human animals are known to practice deception too. Melissa Melissa A. Fleming, Ph.D. Mammalogy, University of Alaska Museum 907 Yukon Drive Fairbanks, AK 99775 USA Phone: 907-474-7994 FAX: 907-474-5469 Email: fnmaf@aurora.alaska.edu