From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 1-FEB-1999 20:03:32.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'", IN%"aisthor@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Aisthorpe, Robert", IN%"KellyAJ@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Andrew Kelly", IN%"BawdenD@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Bawden, Desiree", IN%"McDougG@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Greg CC: Subj: The truth about cats and dogs All This was forwarded to me and I appreciated the truth and humour - hope you do too! Carol Petherick > Subject: Dogs and cats > > Where the dog came from and why we have cats > > A newly discovered chapter in the Book of Genesis has provided the > answer > to "Where do pets come from?" > > Adam said, "Lord, when I was in the garden, you walked with me every > day. > Now I do not see you anymore. I am lonesome here & it is difficult for > me > to remember how much you love me." > > And God said, "No problem! I will create a companion for you that will > be > with you forever & who will be a reflection of my love for you, so that > you > will love me even when you cannot see me. Regardless of how selfish or > childish or unlovable you may be, this new companion will accept you as > you > are & will love you as I do, in spite of yourself." > > And God created a new animal to be a companion for Adam. And it was a > good > animal. And God was pleased. And the new animal was pleased to be with > Adam > & he wagged his tail. And Adam said, "Lord, I have already named all the > animals in the Kingdom & I cannot think of a name for this new animal." > > And God said, "No problem! Because I have created this new animal to be > a > reflection of my love for you, his name will be a reflection of my own > name, and you will call him DOG." > > And Dog lived with Adam & was a companion to him & loved him. And Adam > was > comforted. And God was pleased. And Dog was content & wagged his tail. > > After a while, it came to pass that Adam's guardian angel came to the > Lord > & said, "Lord, Adam has become filled with pride. He struts & preens > like a > peacock & he believes he is worthy of adoration. Dog has indeed taught > him > that he is loved, but perhaps too well." > > And the Lord said, "No problem! I will create for him a companion who > will > be with him forever & who will see him as he is. The companion will > remind > him of his limitations, so he will know that he is not always worthy of > adoration." > > And God created CAT to be a companion to Adam. And Cat would not obey > Adam. > And when Adam gazed into Cat's eyes, he was reminded that he was not the > supreme being. And Adam learned humility. > > And God was pleased. And Adam was greatly improved. And Dog was happy. > And > the cat didn't give a shit one way or the other. > > > > > From: IN%"haneyhj@sas.upenn.edu" 2-FEB-1999 00:01:54.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: student in need of help I'm a student at the University of Pennsylvania and am majoring in environmental studies and the philosophy of science. I'm hoping to go into conservation ethology. I haven't ever written to the list, but I've been reading for a while. But I need your help. I have to write a term paper for my environmental studies class and can choose any topic related to the environment. I really want to do a paper or some of the conservation ethology studies that have been done in the past and how they relate to the endangered environment, but I have two problems. I can't find enough info on any conservation ethology, either broad concepts or specific research that's been done. And I'm having difficulty deciding if I can tie this subject into environmental problems. Can anyone help in anyway or give some alternative subjects I could write about that include ethology? Thank you so much for the help and for allowing me to sit back and learn from you too. Sincerely, Heather Haney haneyhj@sas.upenn.edu From: IN%"J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" "Julie Durrell" 2-FEB-1999 04:18:43.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Ethology/welfare courses. Does anyone know if there are any 'correspondence' or 'open university' courses (open to people living in Britain or Ireland) at any level in ethology, applied ethology and/or welfare. Julie Durrell School of Psychology, Queen's University of Belfast From: IN%"Lena.Lidfors@hmh.slu.se" "Lena Lidfors" 2-FEB-1999 06:20:10.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Suckling Symposium Dear all, The Final Announcement and Registration Form for the International Symposium on Suckling have now been sent out. It will be held at Alfa Laval Agri just South of Stockholm in Sweden the 5-7 of May 1999. Plenary speakers will be: Olav Oftedal on the topic "Behavioural aspects of suckling" Kerstin Uvn=E4s-Moberg on the topic "Physiological aspects of suckling" Anne Marie de Passill=E9 on the topic "Suckling related problems" Carlos Galina and Christian Krohn on the topic "Consequences of different suckling systems" We now hope to get many interesting abstracts for the short presentations (15 minutes) and posters. Deadline for registration and submission of abstracts is February 22. Deadline for late registration is 22 March. To get more information go to the Symposium web site: http://www.slu.se/conference/suckling/ or e-mail to suckling@slu.se or Lena.Lidfors@hmh.slu.se Hope to meet many of you in May. Lena Lidfors +#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+# # Lena Lidfors Lena Lidfors + + FD Etologi PhD Ethology # # Inst. f=F6r Husdjurens Milj=F6 Dept. of Animal Environment and + + och H=E4lsa Health + + Box 234 P.O.B. 234 # # 532 23 SKARA S-532 23 SKARA SWEDEN + + Tel: 0511-67215 Tel: +46 511 67215 # # FAX: 0511-67204 FAX: +46 511 67204 + + Email:Lena.Lidfors@hmh.slu.se Email:Lena.Lidfors@hmh.slu.se # +#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+# From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 2-FEB-1999 09:18:55.72 To: IN%"mcburney@imap.pitt.edu" "Donald H. McBurney", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: IQ - branded on Message text written by "Donald H. McBurney" >It is my understanding that the Myers-Briggs is not considered a good te= st in the academic testing communtiy, in spite of its widespread use in busines= s and organizations. It has too few items for reliability, it is based on dubious (Jungian, if memory serves) theoretical underpinnings, and it results in all-or-none classification. Donald McBurney< Don (Donald), We know each other as tangents and I'm sorry there is not time or opportunity to change that condition. My "bent" is a fascination with "extended phenotypes." The domain of psychological testing -- Rorchach (sp? how embarrassing!) to WAIS to Myers-Briggs -- is one such. The discrepancy between academic criteria a= nd commercial could be described as the product of (1) a self-selection of particular minds into particular settings and a reinforcement and magnification of small original differences into larger gaps into several= cultures, (2) a reflection of our each seeking experiences and data most consistent with our particular adaptations. Some little kids like to fis= h, some do not. Some minds diddle with science, others with human applications -- perhaps both do it in some isolation from other nodes of human creativity. I left Pitt in 1969. Mostly great memories. Was somewhat distressed by the cancerous growth of the med center and displacement of the neighborhoods of my time. Wolfe was correct -- "can't go home again" = Perhaps because "home" itself kept on moving and transforming. Jim Brody PS: Jungian models (but probably not Jung himself) are finding some interest from we evolution types. EO Wilson shrewdly overlaps archetypes with releaser stimuli. Heuristic? Maybe. Could eventually tie lizard mechanisms and Hollywood's portrayals of both cartoons and people as well= as modern art and music. Fun stuff (and "fun" is perhaps what life is about)! http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary http://www.clinical-sociobiology.com Clinical Sociobiology (Part 3): Darwinian Feelings and Values John Price, Russ Gardner, John Fentress, James Brody 20th Cape Cod Institute July 19-23, 1999 http://www.cape.org/1999/ From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 2-FEB-1999 13:59:16.83 To: IN%"mcburney@imap.pitt.edu" "Donald H. McBurney" CC: IN%"fentress@is.dal.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com" Subj: RE: IQ - branded on [Poor Old Jung...] Message text written by "Donald H. McBurney" >Jung was a Lamarckian.< Jung had a lot of baggage besides having once shaken hands with Fentress.= There's a current ad in Newsweek and other periodicals, showing a half stripped teenaged male, arms outcast, and eyes open so wide the whites ar= e visible completely around his iris. (Sony?) Anyhow, I suspect a lizard, bird, chimp would respond to this image as mu= ch as a human does. "That kid's weird" or the birds may try mating with him= . The phenomenon of biological motion (along with some of Wilson's remarks = in "Consilience") offer hints of a promising biogenetic foundation to our visual arts. I'm waiting for John Fentress to tell us that there's a 20= % redundancy principle in music. Back to lurking! Jim Brody From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 2-FEB-1999 15:29:01.02 To: IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"jbrody@mediaone.com" "Jim Brody", IN%"mattf+@pitt.edu" "Matt Fraser", IN%"claire.imber@bbc.co.uk" "Clair CC: Subj: Chimps and AIDS My earlier set of notes on the Living Links Symposium: Origins referred t= o coming announcements about AIDS. The news is out, however, Richard Wrangham made one point at the conference that is skipped in current medi= a. 1) Estimates are that all the remaining nonhuman primates (excluding Gree= n Bay fans) on earth would fit into 2 football stadiums. 2) The move by AIDS from chimps from people occurred because people hunt and eat chimps. 3) The practice continues in central Africa. Wrangham showed slides of chimp bodies -- sawed hands and feet and heads and racks of ribs on truck= beds, headed for restaurants where the meat sells for a premium over the price of beef. The virus may have jumped from simians to hungry and impovershed humans many times. However, it's spread to more affluent humans -- perhaps started in the late '40s and early '50s -- who travel roads and air lanes was perhaps the more deadly for many of us. Ironies. Jim Brody Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values John Price, Russ Gardner, John Fentress, James Brody 20th Cape Cod Institute July 19-23, 1999 15 CEUs www.cape.org/1999/ From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" 2-FEB-1999 16:25:44.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: The truth about cats and dogs subsequently............. man invented small kitchen appliances and gods true vision for cats was realized. guy (ok, ok, i know ............ but it was a joke............. ) > > Subject: Dogs and cats > > > > Where the dog came from and why we have cats > > > > A newly discovered chapter in the Book of Genesis has provided the > > answer > > to "Where do pets come from?" > > > > Adam said, "Lord, when I was in the garden, you walked with me every > > day. > > Now I do not see you anymore. I am lonesome here & it is > difficult for > > me > > to remember how much you love me." > > > > And God said, "No problem! I will create a companion for > you that will > > be > > with you forever & who will be a reflection of my love for > you, so that > > you > > will love me even when you cannot see me. Regardless of how > selfish or > > childish or unlovable you may be, this new companion will > accept you as > > you > > are & will love you as I do, in spite of yourself." > > > > And God created a new animal to be a companion for Adam. > And it was a > > good > > animal. And God was pleased. And the new animal was pleased > to be with > > Adam > > & he wagged his tail. And Adam said, "Lord, I have already > named all the > > animals in the Kingdom & I cannot think of a name for this > new animal." > > > > And God said, "No problem! Because I have created this new > animal to be > > a > > reflection of my love for you, his name will be a > reflection of my own > > name, and you will call him DOG." > > > > And Dog lived with Adam & was a companion to him & loved > him. And Adam > > was > > comforted. And God was pleased. And Dog was content & > wagged his tail. > > > > After a while, it came to pass that Adam's guardian angel > came to the > > Lord > > & said, "Lord, Adam has become filled with pride. He struts & preens > > like a > > peacock & he believes he is worthy of adoration. Dog has > indeed taught > > him > > that he is loved, but perhaps too well." > > > > And the Lord said, "No problem! I will create for him a > companion who > > will > > be with him forever & who will see him as he is. The companion will > > remind > > him of his limitations, so he will know that he is not > always worthy of > > adoration." > > > > And God created CAT to be a companion to Adam. And Cat > would not obey > > Adam. > > And when Adam gazed into Cat's eyes, he was reminded that > he was not the > > supreme being. And Adam learned humility. > > > > And God was pleased. And Adam was greatly improved. And Dog > was happy. > > And > > the cat didn't give a shit one way or the other. > > > > > > > > > > > From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 3-FEB-1999 07:47:50.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chimps and AIDS Hi James: With primates being so close to us on the evolutionary scale, it seems like eating primate meat is cannibalistic. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" "Chris Rutt" 4-FEB-1999 07:06:53.19 To: IN%"hnrutt@tcp.co.uk" "Prof Harvey N Rutt", IN%"bandr@globaldialog.com" "Royan Webb", IN%"richard@putmania.freeserve.co.uk" "Richard Putman", IN%"Burdmn@aol.com" "Gary Morgan", IN%"brian.miles@bigpond.com" "Brian Miles", IN%"oneqtcat@hotmail.com" CC: Subj: HAPPY99 trojan Thought you should see this... >I generally discourage virus/trojan warnings on this list, but a >new trojan has appeared on three lists that I'm on in the last few >days, so it's likely to appear here soon. > > >It poses no risk unless you run (execute) HAPPY99.EXE. If you receive >a message with this file attached, delete it. > > DO NOT RUN IT! > >Reading the message will not infect your system. > >There is a description at http://www.datafellows.com/v-descs/ska.htm > >In general, running any program you get as an attachment is a risk. >This includes using Word to read an attached Word document because >Word documents can contain macro viruses. > >HAPPY99 does no damage, but it will send exactly one message >containing HAPPY99.EXE to each address you send to after becoming >infected. It keeps a list of addresses it has sent itself to in >the file LISTE.SKA and will not send to an address in this list >a second time. > >If you think you may have become infected you can send a test message >to yourself. If you get a second message with HAPPY99 attached you >are infected. Disinfection is easy if you are comfortable with DOS. >If not, I expect there will be patches for many of the AV programs >to remove it bofore long. From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 4-FEB-1999 07:33:49.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chimps and AIDS Hi Jim ! Jim wrote: > > Part of Richard Wrangham's talk in Atlanta was a slide of a chimp caught > after killing and eating several local human kids. Cannibalism seems woven > into most our relatives. > > Jim Do chimps (or any primate) eat conspecifics? DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 4-FEB-1999 09:44:35.95 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Computer viruses Dear all, In case anyone is interested, I find the following site useful for obtaining informatin on viruses. It also allows you to look up a specific "virus" to see if it's listed as a myth, or not (it usually is). http://www.kumite.com/myths/ Chantal :-) From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 4-FEB-1999 10:41:01.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chimps and AIDS -Reply What's the problem with cannibalism? Many cultures have practiced it. Since humans seem incapable of getting out of the habit of killing each other for no good reason, they may as well make use of a good source of protein, especially in places where protein is hard to come by. Paul >>> Deborah McWilliams 02/03/99 07:44am >>> Hi James: With primates being so close to us on the evolutionary scale, it seems like eating primate meat is cannibalistic. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 4-FEB-1999 10:43:37.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chimps and AIDS -Reply Hi Paul: Without a discussion on ethics/morals/philosophy, I'd say a convincing argument is disease transmission. DebMcW > Date sent: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 11:37:48 -0500 > From: Paul Carella > Subject: Re: Chimps and AIDS -Reply > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > What's the problem with cannibalism? Many cultures have practiced it. > Since humans seem incapable of getting out of the habit of killing each > other for no good reason, they may as well make use of a good source > of protein, especially in places where protein is hard to come by. > > Paul > > >>> Deborah McWilliams 02/03/99 > 07:44am >>> > Hi James: > With primates being so close to us on the evolutionary scale, > it seems like eating primate meat is cannibalistic. > > DebMcW > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 5-FEB-1999 15:13:52.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chimps and AIDS -Reply -Reply Deborah, Why is disease transmission more of a problem for eating human meat than for eating meat from animals raised for food or from wildlife taken by hunters? When you made your original comment about cannibalism it was moral/ethical in nature because "cannibalism" doesn"t have a great deal of ecological significance. I believe it is common in many "lower" species. One of the reasons most bird and mammal carnivores do not eat members of their own species is because they are not physically capable of preying on them. Also, if they are of the opposite sex, they are more interested using them to pass on their genes than as a food source. I hope no one misinterprets my comments to think that I am advocating human cannibalism. I am not. Paul >>> Deborah McWilliams 02/04/99 10:42am >>> Hi Paul: Without a discussion on ethics/morals/philosophy, I'd say a convincing argument is disease transmission. DebMcW > Date sent: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 11:37:48 -0500 > From: Paul Carella > Subject: Re: Chimps and AIDS -Reply > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > What's the problem with cannibalism? Many cultures have practiced it. > Since humans seem incapable of getting out of the habit of killing each > other for no good reason, they may as well make use of a good source > of protein, especially in places where protein is hard to come by. > > Paul > > >>> Deborah McWilliams 02/03/99 > 07:44am >>> > Hi James: > With primates being so close to us on the evolutionary scale, > it seems like eating primate meat is cannibalistic. > > DebMcW > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 5-FEB-1999 15:55:02.56 To: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chimps and AIDS -Reply -Reply On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Paul Carella wrote: > Deborah, > Why is disease transmission more of a problem for eating human meat > than for eating meat from animals raised for food or from wildlife taken > by hunters? People are vulnerable to >all< human diseases (obviously). They are only vulnerable to >some< (i.e. zoonotic) animal diseases. You have to weigh the advantage of eating proteins very similar to those that your own body is made of against the risk that any pathogens or parasites hiding there are well adapted to thrive in just such a body. Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 6-FEB-1999 08:46:19.02 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chimps and AIDS -Reply -Reply Hi Paul!! You asked: > Deborah, > Why is disease transmission more of a problem for eating human meat > than for eating meat from animals raised for food or from wildlife taken > by hunters? 1) No legal governance on conditions for raising human meat 2) No inspection processes on human meat Eating meat from wildlife is a risk because of the two above reasons. Many parts of "exotics" (does this include human meat?) are also eaten raw (blood drunk fresh from the living animal, monkey brains sucked up raw with a straw) which further increases the health risks of ingesting the meat. When you made your original comment about cannibalism it > was moral/ethical in nature because "cannibalism" doesn"t have a great > deal of ecological significance. Your interpretation. One of the reasons most bird and mammal carnivores do not> eat members of their own species is because they are not physically > capable of preying on them. Also, if they are of the opposite sex, they > are more interested using them to pass on their genes than as a food > source. Good points (but not applicable to humans?). > I hope no one misinterprets my comments to think that I am advocating > human cannibalism. I am not. Me thinks you protest too much!!!! (Just teasing). DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 6-FEB-1999 09:23:21.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chimps and AIDS -Reply -Reply Hi Anna! Anna wrote: > > I doubt these factor have had much influence put on an evolutionary > time-scale, though! (In many parts of the world the control of human and > other meat still do not differ in that it is all non-existing) I guess that would depend on the indice. For example, how much do we know about the incidence of and the consequence of eating human and wild meats? We tend to know of reportable incidences which most likely come from parts of the world where it is practiced the least. On an evolutionary time scale? A little beyond the reference frame for my comments. However, I would suspect those individuals most "lucky" or best able to survive the risk exposure would be the survivors (as is the case in most things). DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 6-FEB-1999 09:52:36.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: help on references Hi to everyone, I am writing an extensive review on generalisation and peak-shift. I am a little short of papers about generalisation along size dimensions... can anyone help me? The list of the papers that I have already is at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se/stefano/sizelist.html Thanks a lot for your time. I will be happy to send a copy of the paper to anyone interested. Sincerely, Stefano Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"chaucer3@prodigy.net" "Shannon Hill" 6-FEB-1999 15:32:21.59 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Discussion Group" CC: Subj: Identifying fish This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_YWcwBfeSEMLdZlQIeenXMw) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I am performing an experiment on aggression levels of pink convicts = (Cichlasoma nigrofasciatum). It would be really helpful to be able to = identify individuals within the tank. Do any of you know of a way to = tag or mark the fish? I'd prefer not to pierce their caudal fin with a = tag if it can be avoided. I am hoping that there is some sort of paint = that I can dot them with. Thanks for your help! Shannon Hill East Tennessee State University Johnson City, TN. --Boundary_(ID_YWcwBfeSEMLdZlQIeenXMw) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,
 
I am performing an = experiment on=20 aggression levels of pink convicts (Cichlasoma  = nigrofasciatum).  It=20 would be really helpful to be able to identify individuals within the=20 tank.  Do any of you know of a way to tag or mark the fish?  = I'd=20 prefer not to pierce their caudal fin with a tag if it can be = avoided.  I=20 am hoping that there is some sort of paint that I can dot them=20 with.
 
Thanks for your help!
 
Shannon Hill
 
East Tennessee State University 
Johnson City, TN. 
--Boundary_(ID_YWcwBfeSEMLdZlQIeenXMw)-- From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" 7-FEB-1999 15:08:38.59 To: IN%"Herman@hpeet.demon.nl" "Herman Peet", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied ethology list'" CC: IN%"ClickTeach@onelist.com" "'ClickTeach@onelist.com'" Subj: RE: request for aggression training > Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 2:12 PM, Herman Peet wrote: > Via my website I received a request for help for someone with an agressive > dog. > > I would like to refer these people to a canine behaviourist, however, they > happen to be US citizens living in the United Arab Emirates. That is way > beyond my network of trainers and behaviourists. > > Does anyone of you know someone I can refer to in that region? hello, not in that region but on-line there is an aggression list which is good. i think the subscribe address is: Majordomo@esosoft.COM message line blank then "subscribe name" w/o quotes. margory From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" 7-FEB-1999 15:33:22.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sorry - editing aggression list post > Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 2:12 PM, Herman Peet wrote: > Via my website I received a request for help for someone with an agressive dog. > > I would like to refer these people to a canine behaviourist, however, they happen to be US citizens living in the United Arab Emirates. That is way > beyond my network of trainers and behaviourists. > > Does anyone of you know someone I can refer to in that region? hello, - forgot to enter name of list!! (time to go walk my dogs i think...:-)). i think the subscribe address is: Majordomo@esosoft.COM message line blank then "subscribe ab person's name" w/o quotes. margory From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN & MICKEY BREGMAN" 7-FEB-1999 19:12:21.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sorry - editing aggression list post At 01:20 PM 2/7/99 -0800, margory cohen wrote: >> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 2:12 PM, Herman Peet wrote: > >> Via my website I received a request for help for someone with an >agressive dog. >> >> I would like to refer these people to a canine behaviourist, however, >they happen to be US citizens living in the United Arab Emirates. That is >way >> beyond my network of trainers and behaviourists. >> >> Does anyone of you know someone I can refer to in that region? > >hello, - forgot to enter name of list!! (time to go walk my dogs i >think...:-)). > >i think the subscribe address is: >Majordomo@esosoft.COM >message line blank >then "subscribe ab person's name" w/o quotes. > >margory Correct info on the agression list: This message sent by: Joel Walton AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIORS The Aggressive Behavior List (AB-L) is hosted by Joel Walton and is for pet dog trainers and pet dog owners to talk to one another about aggressive behavior in dogs. The list will be limited to unwanted aggressive behavior directed towards humans or dogs by canines. To: majordomo@esosoft.com Subject: subscribe AB Hope this helps. I'm on another one of his lists. Vivian " No piece of equipment is idiot proof and anything can be misused." Vivian Bregman and the Border Collies in NJ Kelev Canine College, Inc.* *NADOI # 860 & APDT #1220P * bregman@interactive.net *Showing since 1963, Teaching since 1965 From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 8-FEB-1999 13:22:04.29 To: IN%"phausman@digizen.net" "Patti Hausman", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Computer viruses Colleagues, =46rom my offspring. Jim Brody =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Beware Of The Following Viruses: > .......Ellen Degeneres virus........Your IBM suddenly claims it's a MAC= . > .......Monica Lewinsky virus........Sucks all the memory out of your > computer. > .......Titanic virus................Makes your whole computer go down. > .......Disney virus.................Everything in the computer goes Goo= fy. > .......Mike Tyson virus.............Quits after one byte. > .......Prozac virus.................Screws up your RAM but your process= or > doesn't care. > .......Lorena Bobbit virus..........Turns your hard disk into a 3.5 inc= h > floppy. > .......Woody Allen virus............By-passes the motherboard and turns= on > daughter card. > .......Joey Buttafuoco virus........Only attacks minor files. > .......Spice Girl virus.............Has no real function, but makes a > pretty desktop. > .......Ronald Reagan virus..........Saves your data, but forgets where = it > is stored. > .......Dr. Kevorkian virus..........Searches your hard drive for old fi= les > and deletes them. > .......Oprah Winfrey virus........Your 200MB hard drive suddenly shrink= s > to 80MB, and then slowly expands to 300MB. > .......AT&T virus.........Every 3 minutes it tells you what great servi= ce > you are getting. > .......MCI virus.......Every 3 minutes it reminds you that you're payin= g > too much for the AT&T virus. > .......Arnold Schwarzenegger virus..........Terminates and stays > resident... It'll be back. > .......Viagra virus........Expands your hard drive while putting too mu= ch > pressure on your zip drive. > .......Then there is the Clinton PC........It has a six inch hard drive= > and no memory. > = From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 8-FEB-1999 21:35:17.40 To: IN%"herwin@gmu.edu" "Harry Erwin", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" Subj: RE: Sociobiology/EP Change Message text written by Harry Erwin >> I just found a picture in Ed Wilson's bio of him, Eibl-Eibesfeldt, Dawkins, > G Williams, and Hamilton at the 1st HBES meeting. The caption read, > "Founders of sociobiology ..." although the word was originally suggest= ed > by a student of Wilson's, Stuart Altmann. > > Do you (or anyone else on the list) have further background? Also abou= t > reasons for the change (beyond the heat faced by Wilson as described in= > "The Naturalist")? > > Jim Brody I don't know about the nature of the change, but I remember the heat. = I was doing work in evolutionary game theory in the mid-80's, = studying risk-taking behavior in situations involving conflicts = between groups, and found myself attacked for doing immoral research = by senior people in anthropology. EOW was supportive. The word from = friends in anthropology was that quite a few junior people had their = careers ruined by similar attacks. Apparently suggesting that human = behavior had a genetic component was profoundly upsetting to most = anthropologists from a traditional background. Also, anything = involving human behavior during group conflict was a red flag in = those days, given the bad experiences with military-funded research = during the Viet-Nam era. --- Harry Erwin, Internet: herwin@gmu.edu, Web Page: http://mason.gmu.edu/~herwin Senior Software Analyst, PhD candidate modeling how bats echolocate = and lecturer in data structures and advanced C++. = < =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Thanks Harry. I'm not surprised, that mass human action can be relentless whether from the left or the right. I think I've worked through genes and environment for me personally but expect to get roasted when I attempt to share the ideas. I'm also a bit = of a coward, waiting for someone else to stand up and get applause instead o= f rocks. Isn't happening yet. And I'm kind of afraid of the circumstances= under which it would. Jim Brody http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary http://www.clinical-sociobiology.com From: IN%"V.W.Koch@usda.gov" "V W Koch" 9-FEB-1999 12:05:41.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: pack behaviour I am forwarding this message because John could not send it himself. If someone can help him with his communication problem, I'm sure he'd appreciate it. Thanks. Wendy Koch v.w.koch@usda.gov ---------------------- Forwarded by V W Koch/CA/APHIS/USDA on 02/09/99 09:56 AM --------------------------- jkincaid@kawartha.com on 01/30/99 10:47:44 AM To: V W Koch@aphisnotes@gw cc: Subject: Re: pack behaviour Hello Wendy; For one reason or another my mail is rejected at applied-ethology. I would like to relate two, albeit anecdotal, accounts of wolf pack behaviour toward injured pack mates. that I had the opportunity to witness. This was with a Native Canadian of First Nations descent who had lived in close proximity to wolves all his life. In the first instance the injured wolf was with the juveniles ,who were in a rendevous area, while the rest of the adults were out hunting. When the hunters returned the lame adult got it's share of food along with the pups. In the second case(different pack) very soon after the adult was injured it was killed by pack members. I asked this gentlman about the difference and his reply has stuck with me all these years later. Never assume a wolf is a wolf is a wolf or a pack is a pack is a pack. Different wolves have different personalities which in turn affect the workings of the pack. I think it is fair to extrapolate that to domestic dogs as they are close kin. What do you think? also if you could tell me how to go about sending my messages to the group I would be greatful. John From: IN%"V.W.Koch@usda.gov" "V W Koch" 9-FEB-1999 15:42:28.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chimps and AIDS Jim wrote: > > Part of Richard Wrangham's talk in Atlanta was a slide of a chimp caught > after killing and eating several local human kids. Cannibalism seems woven > into most our relatives. DebMcW wrote: > Do chimps (or any primate) eat conspecifics? (Underlining is mine.) You mean besides humans? :) Wendy Koch v.w.koch@usda.gov From: IN%"chris.gotman@sympatico.ca" 9-FEB-1999 22:21:28.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: new boy has a chance to perpetuate his genes Dear Dr. Cameron, There is no implied link between a knowledge of biology and the act of contributing to the gene pool. This lion has not worked out the cost and benefits of infanticide. Since the infanticide of a previous lion's cubs is a strategy that is tolerated by the females and increases the new lion's genetic contribution to the gene pool, the lions that kill all existing cubs upon taking over a pride out-breed lions that wait for those cubs to disperse upon maturity. As for "perpetuating his genes", I do not find this statement to be imprecise. It reminds us of the end game, the underlying mechanism of natural selection: that of preserving the transmission of DNA down through the ages. Organisms come and go, but life goes on and on and on. Look not at the lion but at the genes and how they affect the lion's behavior. sincerely, Chris Gotman Quebec, Canada From: IN%"SJOKELA@vetmed.helsinki.fi" "Jokela Saija" 10-FEB-1999 02:58:29.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction. Hello. My name is Saija Jokela, I'm a first year vet student at Helsinki university, Finland. I'm most of all interested in the domestic animal behavior, obviously, but anything living, breathing and behaving is of interest to me.I hope I have now introduced myself properly and without too many spelling mistakes.I'm sure that reading your opinions will be most useful to me in trying to understand our companions with varying numbers of feet. The mail about lions and cubs and high school students confused me.Was there somethig I did'nt quite get? Surely nobody thinks that male lions would rationally kill cubs, reasoning that this will help their own genetical survival? Their not knowing the reason does'nt mean that there woud not be one, does it. From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 10-FEB-1999 07:52:24.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: fine young cannibals Hi Wendy! > DebMcW wrote: > > > Do chimps (or any primate) eat conspecifics? > Wendy Koch (of USDA) wrote: > (Underlining is mine.) > You mean besides humans? > :) Good point. The more detailed question is "Do any primates eat conspecifics in conditions other than those considered abherrent?" (For example, even many New Guinea human tribes eat conspecifics not as a regular meat source but in symbolic ritual). Wendy - any USDA plans for legislating use of human meat use? DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 10-FEB-1999 08:14:20.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: hoods for pigs Dear All: I have a request from one of the Graduate Students at the University of Manitoba. She is trying to utilize a hood to protect the externalized portion of an indwelling catheter. If anyone has any information on hood designs for pigs or problems which you have run into with hoods on any animals it would be greatly appreciated. Her own message follows. Replies can be sent directly to the lab. as stated in the message below or to me. Thank you for your help, Nora Swine Hoods? Anyone with knowledge of or experience with temporary hoods or harnesses for "protecting" indwelling vein catheters in adult pigs? We would appreciate any information that would help us in developing a "humane" method to maintain these catheters in place. Please contact: M.L. Connor Department of Animal Science University of Manitoba Winnipeg, MB R3T 2N2 Ph: 204/474-9219 Fax: 204/474-7628 E-mail: mconnor@cc.umanitoba.ca -- Nora Lewis, Ph.D., D.V.M. Department of Animal Science, University of Manitoba, 12 Dafoe Rd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. R3T 2N2 phone: 204 474-9443 fax: 204 474-7628 email Nora_Lewis@UManitoba.Ca From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 10-FEB-1999 08:42:53.83 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: fine young cannibals Message text written by Deborah McWilliams >Wendy - any USDA plans for legislating use of human meat use? DebMcW < The USDA already regulates the use of meat by humans, the more interestin= g question is the regulation of using human meat. = Especially pertinent to religious celebrations wherein bread and wine are= transubstantiated into human meat and blood. Is it cannibalism if you believe you're eating human flesh? The converse? Also, will have to stop chewing my cuticles. Confusing hominid customs! Jim Brody From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 10-FEB-1999 09:07:47.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: fine young cannibals Hello James! > >Wendy - any USDA plans for legislating use of human meat use? > > DebMcW < James wrote: > > The USDA already regulates the use of meat by humans, the more interesting > question is the regulation of using human meat. Yes - "Use of human meat use". Redundant. > Especially pertinent to religious celebrations wherein bread and wine are > transubstantiated into human meat and blood. Is it cannibalism if you > believe you're eating human flesh? The converse? > Also, will have to stop chewing my cuticles. Confusing hominid customs! > Mmmmm. Must we also have a discussion about human juveniles ingesting nasal discharges and fecal ingestion by human infants? dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 10-FEB-1999 09:22:54.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: post-doc position Two Year Appointment in Pig Behaviour and Welfare Our Laboratory is happy to announce a position for a Post-doc or Research Associate in swine behaviour. Currently this is a two year position but we hope to extend this. The position is currently funded by both a government and industry grant which we feel has good prospects for extension. We are studying the transportation of early weaned piglets with emphasis on duration of transport and temperature variables. The project will involve blood sampling and analysis, video taping behaviour and statistical analysis. The successful applicant should have a Ph.D. or equivalent in animal behaviour, experience working with swine and enthusiasm for working independently on organising and implementing a quality research program. To apply please contact Nora Lewis at the University of Manitoba. Nora Lewis, Ph.D., D.V.M. Department of Animal Science, University of Manitoba, 12 Dafoe Rd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. R3T 2N2 phone: 204 474-9443 fax: 204 474-7628 email Nora_Lewis@UManitoba.Ca From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 10-FEB-1999 09:50:09.54 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: fine young cannibals Deb-- I remember Jane Goodall talking about a cannibalistic chimp or two, I think. If I remember correctly, a female taught her offspring to be cannibals. Ione ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis From: IN%"prato@imiucca.csi.unimi.it" "Emanuela Prato Previde" 10-FEB-1999 09:59:31.69 To: IN%"Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se" "Anna Olsson" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Applied" Subj: learning theory Dear Anna, besides Mackintosh 1974 "Learning theory" I would suggest you: "Contemporary animal learning theory", Anthony Dikinson 1980; Another good book I use for teaching is: "Learning: behavior and cognition" second edition, David A. Lieberman, 1993, Brooks/Cole Publishing Company. I hope this helps you, Regards, Emanuela Prato Previde From: IN%"bhayes@dsu.deltast.edu" "Bill Hayes" 10-FEB-1999 10:12:08.03 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: fine young cannibals We should also consider... we are constantly sloughing off cells which line our mouths and digestive tracts. These cells then travel to the gut to be digested and reused. Autocannibalism! Just thought I'd make everyone's day for them :-) James F. Brody wrote: > > Message text written by Deborah McWilliams > >Wendy - any USDA plans for legislating use of human meat use? > > DebMcW < > > The USDA already regulates the use of meat by humans, the more interesting > question is the regulation of using human meat. > > Especially pertinent to religious celebrations wherein bread and wine are > transubstantiated into human meat and blood. Is it cannibalism if you > believe you're eating human flesh? The converse? > > Also, will have to stop chewing my cuticles. > > Confusing hominid customs! > > Jim Brody -- Best wishes, Bill _________________________________________ William A. Hayes II, Ph.D. Dept. of Biology Delta State University Cleveland MS 38733 bhayes@dsu.deltast.edu http://www.geocities.com/~doc_hayes/ "Man is the only animal that blushes... or needs to..." - Mark Twain- From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 10-FEB-1999 10:14:42.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: fine young cannibals Hi Janice! Janice said: > Jane Goodall describes chimp cannabilism in her book. A pair of > females took the young of several mothers, over a period of time, > killed and consumed them. So apparently this crops up in our > relatives too. > > Janice Swanson Did she explain the conditions? For example, were there food shortages? DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 10-FEB-1999 10:16:08.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: fine young cannibals Hi Ione! Ione said: > Deb-- > > I remember Jane Goodall talking about a cannibalistic chimp or two, I > think. If I remember correctly, a female taught her offspring to be > cannibals. > > Ione Could you define "taught"? The distinction I am looking for is "a learned behaviour vs innate"?. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"V.W.Koch@usda.gov" "V W Koch" 10-FEB-1999 10:19:59.56 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: new boy has a chance to perpetuate his genes There is a chicken-vs-egg type of comment I remind myself of from time to time in order to stay humble. I don't remember where I heard or read it, but I think it's pertinent to this discussion. The comment is: We are only our genes' way of reproducing themselves. Wendy v.w.koch@usda.gov From: IN%"donlay@iastate.edu" "Donald C Lay Jr." 10-FEB-1999 10:41:21.02 To: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith", IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: fine young cannibals In our behavior seminar yesterday, I just finished presenting the paper by J. Goodall from 1977. It is titled "Infant killing and cannibalism in free-living chimpanzees" (our theme is intraspecies killing this semester!). Ione, I believe this is the paper to which you refer. It was a mother and daughter that killed and ate infants from females in the same community. I was interested in finding out if this behavior continued and if it was continued by their subsequent offspring. Does anybody know of a follow up to these chimps? Their names were Passion and Pom, and actually Prof was involved too. Don At 10:44 AM 2/10/99 -0500, Ione Smith wrote: >Deb-- > >I remember Jane Goodall talking about a cannibalistic chimp or two, I >think. If I remember correctly, a female taught her offspring to be >cannibals. > >Ione > > ================================================== > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html > The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html > for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate > ================================================== > Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis > > Dr. Donald C. Lay Jr. Applied Ethologist Iowa State University 2356 Kildee Hall Ames, IA 50011 donlay@iastate.edu 515-294-2088 From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 10-FEB-1999 10:43:03.27 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: fine young cannibals On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Deborah McWilliams wrote: > Could you define "taught"? The distinction I am looking for is "a >learned behaviour vs innate"?. Sorry, I don't remember the details. I think you're best bet would be to look up Goodall's books. Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 10-FEB-1999 10:45:23.56 To: IN%"donlay@iastate.edu" "Donald C Lay Jr." CC: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: fine young cannibals Thanks Don! Them's the chimps I remembered. I bet there's further info in her books, but I don't remember any details. Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis From: IN%"JSWANSON@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" 10-FEB-1999 11:09:06.84 To: IN%"donlay@iastate.edu" "Donald C Lay Jr." CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: fine young cannibals In Goodall's book she indicted this happened only over a period of four years years then it stopped. Date sent: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:23:56 -0600 From: "Donald C Lay Jr." Subject: Re: fine young cannibals To: Ione Smith , Deborah McWilliams Copies to: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > In our behavior seminar yesterday, I just finished presenting the paper by > J. Goodall from 1977. It is titled "Infant killing and cannibalism in > free-living chimpanzees" (our theme is intraspecies killing this > semester!). Ione, I believe this is the paper to which you refer. It was > a mother and daughter that killed and ate infants from females in the same > community. > > I was interested in finding out if this behavior continued and if it was > continued by their subsequent offspring. Does anybody know of a follow up > to these chimps? Their names were Passion and Pom, and actually Prof was > involved too. > > Don > > At 10:44 AM 2/10/99 -0500, Ione Smith wrote: > >Deb-- > > > >I remember Jane Goodall talking about a cannibalistic chimp or two, I > >think. If I remember correctly, a female taught her offspring to be > >cannibals. > > > >Ione > > > > ================================================== > > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html > > The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics > > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html > > for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate > > ================================================== > > Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis > > > > > > > > > Dr. Donald C. Lay Jr. > Applied Ethologist > Iowa State University > 2356 Kildee Hall > Ames, IA 50011 > donlay@iastate.edu > 515-294-2088 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 10-FEB-1999 12:26:32.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"V.W.Koch@usda.gov" CC: Subj: RE: new boy has a chance to perpetuate his genes To some extent this is the whole basis of sociobiology, but my guess is that you probably read it in "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins Jeff Rushen >>> V W Koch 02/10 11:08 am >>> There is a chicken-vs-egg type of comment I remind myself of from time to time in order to stay humble. I don't remember where I heard or read it, but I think it's pertinent to this discussion. The comment is: We are only our genes' way of reproducing themselves. Wendy v.w.koch@usda.gov From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN & MICKEY BREGMAN" 10-FEB-1999 19:45:26.34 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Applied" CC: Subj: RE: fine young cannibals At 10:08 AM 2/10/99 -0600, you wrote: >We should also consider... we are constantly sloughing off cells which >line our mouths and digestive tracts. These cells then travel to the gut >to be digested and reused. Autocannibalism! Just thought I'd make >everyone's day for them :-) >> >Wendy - any USDA plans for legislating use of human meat use? >> >> DebMcW < >> >> The USDA already regulates the use of meat by humans, the more interesting >> question is the regulation of using human meat. >> >> Especially pertinent to religious celebrations wherein bread and wine are >> transubstantiated into human meat and blood. Is it cannibalism if you >> believe you're eating human flesh? The converse? >> >> Also, will have to stop chewing my cuticles. >> >> Confusing hominid customs! >Mmmmm. Must we also have a discussion about human juveniles > >ingesting nasal discharges and fecal ingestion by human infants? I want to thank everybody on this list who is, albeit unwillingly and unconsciously, helping me to stay on my diet. Vivian dog trainer " No piece of equipment is idiot proof to the right idiot and anything can be misused." Vivian Bregman and the Border Collies in NJ Kelev Canine College, Inc.* *NADOI # 860 & APDT #1220P * bregman@interactive.net *Showing since 1963, Teaching since 1965 From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN & MICKEY BREGMAN" 10-FEB-1999 19:45:51.29 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Applied" CC: Subj: RE: fine young cannibals At 11:01 AM 2/10/99 -0600, you wrote: >In Goodall's book she indicted this happened only over a period of >four years years then it stopped. Was it related to the food supply?? Vivian dog trainer, but interested in everything. Vivian Bregman & the Border Collies in Northern NJ "CIVILIZE YOUR DOG!" NADOI # 860 & APDT #1220P ** Showing since 1963, Teaching since 1965 mailto:bregman@interactive.net From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 11-FEB-1999 04:57:50.13 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Group Posting", IN%"mconnor@cc.umanitoba.ca" CC: Subj: RE: hoods for pigs > Anyone with knowledge of or experience with temporary hoods or >harnesses for "protecting" indwelling vein catheters in adult pigs? We >would appreciate any information that would help us in developing a >"humane" method to maintain these catheters in place. Many years ago I did a lot of work evaluating different anaesthetics for pigs. It was a "cross-over" design in which each animal was tested with one anaesthetic per week for four weeks. We inserted both arterial and venous indwelling catheters into each pig and flushed them twice daily with heparin saline to maintain patency. Most of the pigs were adult Gottingen miniature pigs, but some commercial Large White (Yorkshire) pigs were also used. The pigs were loose housed, so protecting the catheters gave us many headaches for a while, until we came up with a very reliable system: a) Pigs were kept in individual pens to avoid pen-mates interfering with catheters. b) Catheters were run subcutaneously to the back of the neck ("withers" area) c) The pigs were fitted with (stitched into) a jacket of denim material. The jacket had one broad band passing in front of the shoulders and a second band passing under the brisket, just behind the forelegs. d) For access to the catheters, the jackets had a flap (on the pig's back) with velcro fastener. e) The jackets were fitted for an "accomodation" period of one week prior to implanting the catheters. The jackets worked amazingly well! Good Luck Mike Meredith *=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*+=*+=* Michael Meredith, M.A., B.Sc., B.Vet.Med., Ph.D., MRCVS Pig Disease Information Centre Ltd. 4, New Close Farm Business Park Bar Road, Lolworth, Cambs., CB3 8DS, U.K. M.D.'s Electronic mail: meredith@farmline.com Company Email: pdic@btinternet.com Members of AHIS (Animal Health Information Specialists) UK & Ireland *=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=* From: IN%"gonyou@sask.usask.ca" 11-FEB-1999 09:41:18.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: POsition Announcement I have a position available in my lab for a research assistant to be involved in the overall research program of the group. A Ph.D. would be preferred, although an M.S. with additional experience would be considered. Rather than working on a specific project as a post-doc often does, the intent is for the individual to be involved in the entire program. I have funding for three years. The official announcement reads as follows: RESEARCH ASSISTANT IN APPLIED ETHOLOGY Applications are invited for the position of Research Assistant in Applied Ethology at the Prairie Swine Centre, a non-profit corporation located near Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. Active in research, education and technology transfer, the Centre operates one of Canada's largest swine production research facilities and will soon embark on construction of a new 600 sow research unit. The ethology research program is part of a broader research program that also includes engineering and nutrition. The successful candidate will assist with the development and implementation of the ethology research program. This may include, but not necessarily be limited to, recruitment of extramural funding, development and implementation of experiment protocols, summarising and interpretation of data and preparation of final reports and related publications. Applicants should have a Ph.D. in applied ethology or elated discipline and be able to provide evidence of their ability to plan and carry out experiments with pigs. A strong background in statistics and in compurters (word processing, spreadsheets, graphics packages) are essential. The successful candidate will have strong organisational and interpersonal skills and be able to excel in a team-oriented workplace environment. Preference will be given to those with experience in the swine industry. Salary will be commensurate with training and experience. Interested applicants are invited to submit curriculum vitae, relevant reprints and three letters of reference to Dr. Harold Gonyou, Prairie Swine Centre Inc., P.O. Box 21057, 2105-8th Street East, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, CANADA S7H 5N9 [Phone (306) 373-9922; FAX (306) 955-2510; e-mail gonyou@sask.usask.ca]. If you e-mail me I can send you a more complete job description and answer any questions you might have. Harold Gonyou gonyou@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"AShaad@aol.com" 12-FEB-1999 20:41:01.57 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cats, sex and gravity In response to Dr. Cameron's comment on how the animals know about genes when students don't. I am glad I am not the only one who has wondered how animals grasped the concept between genes, sex and perpetuating themselves. How did this concept get started? P.s. since we are discussing theories, I have one on a different aspect of behavior - One of my cats (not the light loving one) loves to knock things over and watch them fall. Any one with cats must know how this is. My theory is that cats are checking to make gravity is still in effect - they are sure one day it won't be there and they want to be the first to know. Any thoughts on this? Amanda P.s my little study with the cat and lights has failed miserably - they knocked the light stand over and ate the seedlings :( From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN & MICKEY BREGMAN" 14-FEB-1999 13:21:06.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Controlled by my genes At 06:23 AM 2/15/99 +1300, you wrote: >I always thought it was the genes that had the power and determination, >intent, whatever, to perpetuate themselves - the "boy" is merely a tool >that they use in all this, and then only to perpetuate the ones that >create "human-ness". > >Gwyneth Verkerk BVSc DPhil I always figured, when I first heard about this, that I was only a pawn in the "hands" of my genes. It made me pick my mate --- some one who is strong enough financially to support my children and he picked me because I was young enough and with hips wide enough to bear him many children. Of course, our genes didn't know that we were not fertile together and had to adopt children, but then again, what do genes know. Vivian dog trainer interested in everything.....especially Biology Vivian Bregman mailto:bregman@interactive.net From: IN%"S.Gragert@t-online.de" 14-FEB-1999 15:28:27.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: animals centre of gravity? Dear All, would you be so kind to tell me the exact location of the centre of gravity especially of pigs but also of cattle, horses, sheep and chickens, and, if available, distances between animal forefeet when standing. In addition I would like to do some calculation on how much the centre of gravity of a fully loaded pig transporter can be moved when all animals are moved to one side during cornering. When slaughter pigs are carried at a loading density of 0.5 mē per pig, how much of this area does an individual animal fill seen from above? In case transport death occurs in pigs, when does it happen? In ten short time (90 min) commercial transports there was only one transport in which all pigs survived, but I was only once able to time the death of a pig and that one died about 25 minutes after start. However one of the drivers told me that pigs that die always die at the beginning of the journey. What do you know or think? Best wishes Stephanie Gragert P.S. NONSCIENTIFIC REQUEST: Could somebody please send me a recipe for muffins? ------------------------------------- Stephanie Gragert Kochstr. 59 04275 Leipzig Tel/Fax 0049 341 3304368 S.Gragert@t-online.de From: IN%"Mike@m-tay.demon.co.uk" "--Mike Taylor --" 14-FEB-1999 16:37:05.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hypericum Perforatum ( St Johns Wort ) Dear All, There has been some publicity here recently about the use of a herbal remedy, Hypericum Perforatum, St Johns Wort as an anti depressant in humans, usually instead of Prozac. There is apparently a considerable body of evidence to suggest that it does work and produces far fewer side effects. Does anyone know if this remedy is safe to use in dogs? If so has anyone any experience of its use for behaviour problems in dogs? In essence I am wondering if it can be used as a replacement for fluoxetine. Thanks in anticipation -- --Mike Taylor -- From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 14-FEB-1999 18:49:29.11 To: IN%"Mike@m-tay.demon.co.uk" "--Mike Taylor --", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: Subj: Hypericum Perforatum ( St Johns Wort ) Message text written by --Mike Taylor -- >In essence I am wondering if it can be used as a replacement for fluoxetine.< It seems to do wonderful things for mildly depressed, mildly anxious peop= le who need an "edge" taken off. It is reported to affect GABA, MAO, 5HT an= d NE mechanisms but not in identifiable ways. I have seen it appear to aggravate some "manic" traits in predisposed people. SJW is serious stuff and might be considered for individuals who respond well to the lower dose ranges of the SSRIs or who have concurrent anxiety= , irritability, and labile mood shifts that mildly tax them and everyone around them. People are a bit odd in preferring a weed that, if presented in a combination form of Valium, Prozac, Parnate, and Paxil, would never pass FDA scrutiny. Perhaps due to relative cost, having it on a medical reco= rd that you were "treated for" depression, or having to admit to a physician= that you're something of a pain for everyone else and it's not THEIR faul= t. I have NO information about species variability and will be interested to= see others respond. Jim Brody From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN & MICKEY BREGMAN" 14-FEB-1999 20:00:27.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: animals centre of gravity? At 10:24 PM 2/14/99 -0500, Stephanie Gragert wrote: >Dear All, >In case transport death occurs in pigs, when does it happen? In ten >short time (90 min) commercial transports there was only one transport >in which all pigs survived, but I was only once able to time the death >of a pig and that one died about 25 minutes after start. However one of >the drivers told me that pigs that die always die at the beginning of >the journey. >What do you know or think? I know nothing about this except that I wonder how does the driver mentioned know that they always die at the beginning of the journey. Does he check them every half hour?? Unlikely I think. Vivian dog trainer interested in everything biological " No piece of equipment is idiot proof to the right idiot and anything can be misused." Vivian Bregman and the Border Collies in NJ Kelev Canine College, Inc.* *NADOI # 860 & APDT #1220P * bregman@interactive.net *Showing since 1963, Teaching since 1965 From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 15-FEB-1999 04:02:47.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Controlled by my genes Dear All > I always figured, when I first heard about this, that I was only a pawn in > the "hands" of my genes. I'm just reading Robert Wright's The Moral Animal - an account of evolutionary psychology by someone who I think is more of a journalist than a scientist - and finding it similarly, depressingly deterministic. It seems extraordinary that people concerned about animal welfare have spent so much time and effort arguing that animals are not just machines, only to have others assume unthinkingly that all animals including humans are effectively machines, operated wholly by their genes. I keep pinned to my board a quotation I saw on this network, from someone called Hebb: 'Behavior is controlled 100% by genetics and 100% by the environment.' The influences of the environment are immensely complex, and in at least the case of humans they include self-reflection and conscious decision making. I find evolutionary psychology fascinating, and its proponents certainly do not deny the existence of the human mind or its involvement in human behaviour, nor do they see the mind as mechanistically produced by genes. Mike Appleby Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies in Agriculture & Resource Economics Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh West Mains Road Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"slinedvm@mindspring.com" "Scott Line, DVM, PhD" 15-FEB-1999 08:39:33.97 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Hypericum Perforatum ( St Johns Wort ) >Message text written by --Mike Taylor -- >>In essence I >>am wondering if it can be used as a replacement for fluoxetine.< > >I have NO information about species variability and will be interested to >see others respond. > >Jim Brody There is very little concrete information on effects of fluoxetine itself on the behavior of dogs. Aside from a number of case reports, I'm aware of only one publication of a clinical trial (a 4-week study showing that Prozac decreased some aspects of dominant aggressive behavior; Dodman et al, J Amer Vet Med Assoc 209:1585-1587, 1996). While one could speculate that St. John's Wort may work by a similar mechanism and thus have similar effects in dogs, to date there are no scientific studies of its use. I would be concerned that herbal preparations may not have the same degree of consistent potency that would be found in a pharmaceutical drug. Side effects, although not a frequent problem in my experience, can occur with use of fluoxetine in dogs and can potentially be serious problems. Given the nature of plant-based preparations (more variability and a larger number of ingredients), I would speculate that the potential for side effects with St. John's Wort could be even higher. While St. John's Wort may be less expensive and it may be attractive to some people because it's more "natural", no one to my knowledge has demonstrated that it's safe and effective for use in dogs in the situations where fluoxetine may be indicated. I'd be very interested to learn more, if there is more information out there. Scott Line, DVM, PhD slinedvm@mindspring.com Diplomate, Amer. College Veterinary Behaviorists Animal Behavior Consultations phone (336) 593-9662 fax (336) 593-9762 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 15-FEB-1999 09:12:55.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: animals centre of gravity? Hi Stephanie!! > When slaughter pigs are carried at a loading density of 0.5 m per pig, > how much of this area does an individual animal fill seen from above? Seriously, I suggest taking a trip with a load with you in the back with them (providing for your safety, of course). Take a video camera with you. For example, if you had a "perch" up in the truck rafters (safety belted in, of course) where you had a "bird's eye view" and could record with the video. It would answer a lot of questions and create a lot more questions. Bring kleenex. In case transport death occurs in pigs, when does it happen? In ten > short time (90 min) commercial transports there was only one transport > in which all pigs survived, but I was only once able to time the death > of a pig and that one died about 25 minutes after start. However one of > the drivers told me that pigs that die always die at the beginning of > the journey. 1) At the beginning of one trip I made with a driver, the driver made a quick stop at a red light (I was in the truck cab with the driver). Every pig in the back slid forward with a whoomph! (nontechnical term) into the front of the transport. They were still in a pile when we got to the stockyards. 2) Fasting animals before transport may make them more susceptible to stress-related injuries and death. 3) Crated animals are usually taken from the crate and forced onto the transport. These girls often have difficulty walking - let alone maintaining their centre of gravity. Things to think about on planning your study. > > P.S. NONSCIENTIFIC REQUEST: > Could somebody please send me a recipe for muffins? What kind of muffins? DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN & MICKEY BREGMAN" 15-FEB-1999 09:17:50.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: animals centre of gravity? At 10:10 AM 2/15/99 -0400, Deborah McWilliams wrote: >Hi Stephanie!! > > >> When slaughter pigs are carried at a loading density of 0.5 m per pig, >> how much of this area does an individual animal fill seen from above? > > > Seriously, I suggest taking a trip with a load with you in the >back with them (providing for your safety, of course). Take a video >camera with you. For example, if you had a "perch" up in the truck >rafters (safety belted in, of course) where you had a "bird's eye >view" and could record with the video. It would answer a lot of >questions and create a lot more questions. Bring kleenex. You could set up the cameras and not have to be there to fall off your perch. Vivian dog trainer " No piece of equipment is idiot proof to the right idiot and anything can be misused." Vivian Bregman and the Border Collies in NJ Kelev Canine College, Inc.* *NADOI # 860 & APDT #1220P * bregman@interactive.net *Showing since 1963, Teaching since 1965