From: IN%"fnmaf@aurora.alaska.edu" "Melissa A Fleming" 16-FEB-1998 00:38:19.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Toe cuttin On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, D.B. Cameron wrote: > > Just to quantify your questions: > Having practiced veterinary medicine for 35 years or so, > and having observed, as objectively as possible, thousands of > dogs, cats, and miscellaneous others with all manner of injuries > both accidental and purposeful (surgery), I can attest to the > following with, in my opinion, 100% certainty: > - All the animals that I have encountered do feel pain. > - The threshold of pain in these animals was invariably > higher than I have observed (and experienced) in humans. That is, > given a broken femur, a severe skin tear, a major abdominal > surgical procedure, etc., the animals that I have observed > were reliably less reactive to manipulation, more active in a > normal manner (walking, etc.), less distressingly vocal, less > shocky than a similarly injured human. > This phenomenon could be attributed to cognisence > (conscious realization of personal injury), and probably, to a > degree this is a factor, but I doubt that it is more than a > minor factor in external signs of discomfort. > An alternative hypothesis: A physiologist friend noted the remarkably speedy recovery of normal behavior in rats that had undergone surgery and suggested that it was not necessarily because the rats were not in as much physical pain as a human would be, but because rats and other species may be under stronger selection to not appear weakened, distressed or injured even when they are. Makes some sense - in many societies, humans get a lot of help and comfort from others when they are in pain (what about societies where "stoicism" is more valued?), and this isn't necessarily true in other species in which competitors and predators may be more likely to take advantage of an injured animal. If my physiologist friend is right, I suppose the mechanism could be less "cognisence"...but non-human animals are known to practice deception too. Melissa Melissa A. Fleming, Ph.D. Mammalogy, University of Alaska Museum 907 Yukon Drive Fairbanks, AK 99775 USA Phone: 907-474-7994 FAX: 907-474-5469 Email: fnmaf@aurora.alaska.edu From: IN%"imiuvezo@imiucca.csi.unimi.it" "Istituto di Zootecnica Veterinaria" 16-FEB-1998 04:10:22.73 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Regurgitation during weaning (male dogs) Dear list, Anybody have informations on regurgitation by the sire during weaning in dogs? The question is: breeders claim that is possible for male dogs of certain breeds to regurgitate for pups during weaning, the breed involved is the Saluki; Is it possible to find the same behaviour in other breeds? How can it be explained? Thank you in advance for the answer, Best Regards, Dr.Lucilla Gregoretti From: IN%"fentress@is.dal.ca" 16-FEB-1998 05:00:19.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"fnmaf@aurora.alaska.edu" "Melissa A Fleming" CC: Subj: RE: Toe cuttin I'll bet that cross-cultural studies of apparent perceptions of, and reactions to, pain would offer a lot of interesting information. It is also well known that within our culture(s) different people seem to have very different pain thresholds, etc. Part of this may be physical; part may be "psychological" (desire for sympathy, concern for appearing weak, etc.). I guess the bottom line in this discussion is that it is hard to ASSUME anything about awareness of discomfort. A side issue, of course, is that animals may suffer from discomforts via routes that we (people types) would not suspect. Better measures are needed, and these are hard to come by. A bit of compassion is not a bad idea either. Melissa's "alternative hypothesis" has merit. John Fentress An alternative hypothesis: > A physiologist friend noted the remarkably speedy recovery of normal > behavior in rats that had undergone surgery and suggested that it was not > necessarily because the rats were not in as much physical pain as a human > would be, but because rats and other species may be under stronger > selection to not appear weakened, distressed or injured even when they > are. > > Makes some sense - in many societies, humans get a lot of help and > comfort from others when they are in pain (what about societies where > "stoicism" is more valued?), and this isn't necessarily true in other > species in which competitors and predators may be more likely to take > advantage of an injured animal. If my physiologist friend is right, I > suppose the mechanism could be less "cognisence"...but non-human animals > are known to practice deception too. > > Melissa > > > Melissa A. Fleming, Ph.D. > Mammalogy, University of Alaska Museum > 907 Yukon Drive > Fairbanks, AK 99775 > USA > Phone: 907-474-7994 > FAX: 907-474-5469 > Email: fnmaf@aurora.alaska.edu From: IN%"lynfra@globalnet.co.uk" "Lynn Crook" 16-FEB-1998 05:17:03.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Toe cuttin > - All the animals that I have encountered do feel pain. > - The threshold of pain in these animals was invariably >higher than I have observed (and experienced) in humans. That is, >given a broken femur, a severe skin tear, a major abdominal >surgical procedure, etc., the animals that I have observed >were reliably less reactive to manipulation, more active in a >normal manner (walking, etc.), less distressingly vocal, less >shocky than a similarly injured human. Slightly off subject----but not too much!-----I have know many cases of children who have been neglected and have not reacted to hurt and pain in the same way as their peer group. If a child falls over it generally yells-----whether it is hurt or not, a child who has no expectation of sympathy can be quite badly grazed----and in one case had broken an arm----and will not react obviously to the pain. I have also seen a child lose a chunk of hair to another and she didn't cry out or expect a reaction from the adults around. Working on this as a basis maybe reaction to pain is a learnt behaviour---doesn't mean the pain is any different! I have a couple of my dogs who will come for sympathy if they collide and yelp---I have taught them to do this! The others don't bother! Pain is the same, reaction is different. lynn From: IN%"ialter@study.haifa.ac.il" "itay alter" 16-FEB-1998 05:42:01.78 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hello ... I'd like first to apologize for my poor english, that is english isn't a language I use much, so I don't control it very well... I also want to mention that I'm not a very knowledgable person so all that I say is from the view of the simple minded me. From reading all the e-mail in this list I think that it comes in the end to the very basic qoustion - what is the way you look upon things - If you are of the scientific view I belive that you won't be able to deny that doing experiments on humans is the best way to learn about humans. that is considering that from the view of the science there is no good or evil. But if you try to be considered "human" and be "ethical" you can't deny that the "human" way to do thing is to be concerned with other as much as you concerned with yourself, that is don't treat animals in a way you'ld never treat human. If we want to be truthful we must admit that we don't know anything for sure and a spacialy not what other feel (other humans or other anumals). All that was writen in this list, is after all, just assumptions that we have about animals and the deferencies betwen them and us. The past teaches us very well how science can change its view about things, to the very opposite extream. We must never be so proud to claim to know something to be an ultimate truth, for time can show us we are fools. I myself don't belive in "what is just to do" but only in what is as near as possible to the truth. I belive that the true reason to conduct "human" experiments on animals is that, what ever we allow ourself to do to other creatures would come to be, one day, something that someone will do to us, and when it'll happen we won't have any rightful argument to prevent it. I also think that humans must ask themself who gave them the right to become the planet managers, and by that to decide what is the best way of manage it. I don't think that all the research that is done is really needed, and the thing that really frightens me is the fact that humans seems to lack the ability to look to the far future when planning what to do. It seems to me that if humans would once stop their unending run (for what no one really knowes) and try to plan, considering how things will be effected by their dids in 100's or even 1000's years away, they'll be able to do more good to themself and to the other creatures on earth. well I hope I didn't over do it Itay the simple minded From: IN%"js7958@bristol.ac.uk" 16-FEB-1998 09:04:49.31 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dear All, I am a veterinary student at Bristol university, and am currently reseaching ethics and welfare issues concerned with the castration of lambs. If anyone could be of any help with information, views etc. concerning this issue, please e-mail me as soon as possible at the address below. Thankyou for your time, John Scotton. ---------------------- js7958@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"dka@utk.edu" "Debby Andreadis" 16-FEB-1998 09:10:34.67 To: IN%"shale@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The image of ethologists (re: toe cutting) I am not an ethologist, but I do have some experience with the reaction of small mammals to different marking techniques, and I just wanted to add a few comments. At 0:05 -0500 2/16/1998, shale@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu wrote: >On Feb 15, Alan Rivet wrote: >>The cortex is also in charge of memorisation. So, if >>those animals feel pain, they won't remember it once it's over. > >Depends on what you mean by "remember." I would think that pain stimulus >could alter behavior (and perhaps alter affect or emotion) long after the >stimulus had passed. This is not apparently the case with the animals I have marked by various means (toe clipping, coloration of skin or fur, ear tags). These included *Peromyscus* and other small rodents as well as *Blarina*. All animals, no matter how they were marked, were just as likely to return to the trap the next night and the next week (and the recapture rate is high). I also found no difference in the overall number of times caught with various techniques, or the amount of weight change. All of this suggests to me that the experience is not a greatly traumatic one. The current evidence (no decrease in longevity, no effect on growth rates) suggests that toe clipped rodents are not impaired in daily life. I can also attest to the fact that these animals protest more to the initial capture where they are taken in hand than they do to subsequent marking efforts. All this said, I still prefer not to use toe clipping when any other alternative is available, particularly in an arboreal species, because common sense tells me that it has to make things more difficult to not have all your toes, and because I have a very human negative reaction to mutilation of all kinds. Debby Andreadis dka@utk.edu From: IN%"revilla@cica.es" "REVILLA SANCHEZ" 16-FEB-1998 09:47:52.11 To: IN%"imiuvezo@imiucca.csi.unimi.it" "Istituto di Zootecnica Veterinaria" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Regurgitation during weaning (male dogs) Dear Lucilla, You probably have to think about dogs as domesticated wolves. In this way you can find 'helping behaviuor' in the wild animal, which includes bringing and regurgitating food by both dominant and subdominant males, aswell as giving protection against predators, grooming... These behaviours appear also in Ethiopian wolf (Canis simensis), which is closely related to wolves; but its rare in coyotes. Maybe there is a relation between how old is the dog breed (it means how close is still to wolves), and the probability of finding this behaviour. If you want any particular coment, or references, you can also write me directly. Eloy Revilla ESTACION BIOLOGICA DE DONANA, CSIC AVD. MARIA LUISA S/N PABELLON DEL PERU 41013 SEVILLA- SPAIN TELFN. --5-4232340 FAX. --5-4621125 revilla@cica.es On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Istituto di Zootecnica Veterinaria wrote: > Dear list, > > Anybody have informations on regurgitation by the sire during weaning in > dogs? The question is: breeders claim that is possible for male dogs of > certain breeds to regurgitate for pups during weaning, the breed involved > is the Saluki; Is it possible to find the same behaviour in other breeds? > How can it be explained? > Thank you in advance for the answer, > Best Regards, > Dr.Lucilla Gregoretti From: IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu" "Kale H. McE. Kevan" 16-FEB-1998 11:13:13.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: toe cuttin On Sun, 15 Feb 1998, Alain Rivet wrote: > perception. We are not even sure that 'dumb' animals (without cortex) even > feel pain at all. The cortex is also in charge of memorisation. So, if > those animals feel pain, they won't remember it once it's over. So you > can't compare pain felt by those animals with pain felt by humans (who > suffer from an hypertrophy of the cortex, compared to all the other > animals.) Toe-cutting could be no more stressful than being catched or > handled for 'cortex-free' animals. I have no doubt that they feel 'pain' in at least -some- sense. Even little single-celled beasties try to avoid harmful stimulus. I doubt that the 'pain' of protozoa resembles human pain in any way whatever. I personally suspect that the pain of small rodents is quite similar to our own, at least in terms of what it feels like, if not how the animal thinks about it. We are probably at an impasse on this issue: I can't think of any way to articulate at what point it is that pain begins to 'count' as painful. Why is it that it matters if the animal remembers it? Does that make it acceptable to torture humans as a fun hobby, providing you hire a hyponotist to repress their memories of the experience afterwards? Do you mean by this argument that remembered pain is continued pain, or that the memory of pain is in some way worse than pain itself? If there is pain from losing a toe I doubt it dissapears immediately; the wound probably hurts for several days before it's healed. Does this continued pain 'count' the same as remembered pain? Philosophically iffy, in my opinion. Of course, we use the 'he won't remember it' argument to justify/excuse human pain when circumsising male infants but consider injuring the genitals of adult humans to be a very mean thing to do indeed. So we're not just anthropocentrically justifying causing pain to animals. But I still don't get it. > Please! Let us stay serious...Again, the degree of conceptualization of a > human being when pain is inflicted unto him is millions of years away in > term of evolution from what the mouse or shrew is able to do. I'm perfectly serious. If people want to say it is okay to hurt a shrew because we don't know what it feels like to the shrew, I've got to point out that we don't know what it feels like to ANYONE or ANYTHING aside from ourselves as individuals. I'm not saying that shrews feel the same way humans do, I'm saying that 'it's okay because we don't know' is a bad argument. > We have to keep those kind of arguments very close to earth if we ever want > to be able to convince the public that what we do is serious and by doing > that, help the animals to get a better life. If we compare the mental > processes of mice and humans, we'll loose all credibility (and we already > sound way too much romantic for most people). Ethologists might, but I don't. As a philosopher I can go around making all sorts of ridiculous claims (you are just a brain in a vat, being manipulated by an evil demon; there is an ideal spiritual form of chair someplace in the heavens; etc) and I'd hopefully just get famous. The point of outrageous claims like the one about the Japanese neighbor is this: if you look at an argument that is clearly ridiculous but is structured in the same way as one that is not, you can see the flaws of the non-ridiculous argument without being distracted by its reasonable-sounding specifics. Entirely devoid of emnity, Kale. From: IN%"smillman@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Suzanne Millman" 16-FEB-1998 11:18:36.20 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: regurgitation and weaning In regard to regurgitation as a weaning strategy in domestic dogs you may want to check out the interesting work done by Kerstin Malm. Malm, K., 1995. Regurgitation in relation to weaning in the domestic dog: a questionnaire study. Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci., 43:111-122. Malm, K. & Jensen, P., 1993. Regurgitation as a weaning strategy- a selective review on an old subject in a new light. Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci., 36:47-64. She looked at regurgitation in relation to behaviour, as well as digestion. She found that 60% of 263 Swedish dog breeders responding to the study had observed regurgitation and that breed differences may exist, although these were not significant in their study. She discusses regurgitation as a process in the development of social behaviour. Hope this helps, Suzanne Millman PhD Candidate University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario, N1E 5X8 Canada From: IN%"rhb11@hermes.cam.ac.uk" 16-FEB-1998 11:20:16.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: toe-clipping Dear All, I have been silent during this huge volume of toe-clipping discussions but as I reach the end of the day here in the fenlands I feel the urge for utterance coming on. So Harold's contribution appears to be as follows: I used to work on live trapping rodents (Apodemus and Microtis mainly) using Longworth traps in various habitats over a number of years. I now work in Animal Welfare (I confess for a number more years!). I think the issue is two-fold: 1. We can not know whether rodents feel pain but we should assume they do (in case they do); 2. Since we do not need to toe-clip (or ear clip for that matter) let's make the decision to give it a miss. It's an ethical consideration (which I think does matter). For those ecologists who throw their hands in the air and say that it is very difficult to find good alternatives then, while I've not tried for some years, I am sure this is probably true. However, unless ecologists stop the practice, a suitable alaternative is unlikely to be invented. I am sure an alternaive which is cheap and reliable must be possible. Well, I managed to hold out for about 30 messages worth but there it is . . . Best wishes to all, Harry Dr R. H. Bradshaw, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge, Madingley Road, Cambridge CB3 OES, UK. 'On the importance of not being earnest' From: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" 16-FEB-1998 11:27:19.15 To: IN%"jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp" "Janice Willard" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: toe clipping and mobsters On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:46:12 +0900 (JST) Janice Willard wrote: > From: Janice Willard > Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:46:12 +0900 (JST) > Subject: toe clipping and mobsters > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > I > know that some people object to cutting tails from lambs. And certianly, it > does cause them pain. But when I have missed a lamb tail and that lamb grew > up, the tailed sheep is of a much greater risk for getting fly-strike--where > fly larva burrow into the moist wool under the tail and eventually into the > animal itself, sometimes killing it and certianly causing a great deal more > discomfort than the initial tail cutting did. And the sooner after birth > that I cut the tails, the less discomfort it seemed to cause. So if you look > at the single event in time, it looks like I am brutalizing little baby > lambs, when I am in fact saving them from eventual greater harm. By coincidence, while out walking yesterday, I saw some well-grown lambs on which the tails and area in the immediate vicinity had been shorn. The tails themselves were intact. I assume that this was an alternative method of preventing fly-strike - does anyone out there know if it works? Are sheep the only 'woolly' or long-haired animals at risk from fly-strike? How do wild ones cope without human interference? Just wondering.... Catriona > > > *************************************************************************** > Janice Willard, DVM MS > Machida-shi, Tokyo, Japan > Phone/FAX (81)427-29-4519 > jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp > > > > **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 **************************************************************************** From: IN%"markus.stauffacher@inw.agrl.ethz.ch" "Markus Stauffacher" 16-FEB-1998 11:42:24.56 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE & European Council Dear ISAE-members working with small laboratory animals (rodents & rabbits)! The last Multilateral Consultation, hold in Strasbourg on 27-30 May 1997, agreed that revision of Appendix A of the 'European Convention for the Protection of Vertebrate Animals Used for Experimental and Other Scientific Purposes (ETS 123, 1986)' should be on the agenda of the next Multilateral Consultation which could be held in 2000. It was agreed that several working groups of experts should be formed to elaborate proposals for modifications of Appendix A. I have been appointed by the ISAE to represent our association in the expert group on rodents and rabbits. The group is chaired by Prof. Axel Kornerup-Hansen (Denmark, FELASA), the other four members represent organizations of pharmaceutical industries (EFPIA), animal breeders (FELABA) , laboratory animal science (FVE) and animal welfare (EUROGROUP). In May 1993 an 'International Workshop on the Accommodation of Laboratory Animals in Accordance with Animal Welfare Requirements' was held in Berlin (organized by the German Ministry of of Food, Agriculture and Forestry). The results were published in late 1994 ("Berlin Report"). As chairman of the rabbit and member of the rodent section I had to realize that, as soon as we had to make decisions and conclusions, it was quite hard to separate animal welfare requirements from human economic interests, at least for many of the participants. The crucial parts of Appendix A are the various tables on species-specific recommendations (so far mostly linear weight-space correlations which, from an ethologist's point of view, are highly questionable). It is obvious that, besides well-sounding general statements, any law has to set minimum limitations. Thus, to ensure that the expert group will end with profound animal-related arguments it is most important that our impact is strong and well documented. I would be most grateful for any comments on the following questions: 1) What are your comments on the parts of the 'Resolutuion on the Accommodation and Care of Laboratory Animals' (adopted by the Mulitilateral Consultation on 30-05-97) relevant for rodents and rabbits (see below)? 2) Do you know published research relevant to these statements? 3) Do you know of ongoing research relevant to these statements? 4) What should be future high priority research areas relevant to these statements? 5) Which arguments would you add/omit? 6) What should be amended with respect to Appendix A (ETS 123, 1986)? Extracts of the 'Resolution on the Accommodation and Care of Laboratory Animals' (adopted by the Mulitilateral Consultation on 30-05-97): a) RODENTS a1) Rodents should be kept in cages rather than pens, guinea-pigs excepted. The cages should be made of easy to clean material and their design should allow proper inspection of the animals without unnecessarily disturbing them. a2) They should be provided with solid floors with bedding instead of grid floors, special circumstances excepted. a3) Gregarious species should be group-housed, as long as the groups are stable and harmonious, which can be achieved with difficulty in male rats and mice, and female hamsters. Where the experimental procedures or welfare requirements make it impossible, consideration should be given to accommodating conspecifics within sight, sound or smell of one another. a4) Encouragement should be given to break up the interior space of a cage by introducing objects such as plattforms, tubes, boxes, etc. and attempts should be made to provide environmental enrichment with objects to explore, carry or transform, unless negative effects are observed on welfare or on the intended scientific use. a5) High hygiene standards should be maintained. However, it may be advisable to maintain odour patterns left by the animals. a6) Special attention should be paid to ensuring that the lighting intensity particularly on the top row of cages is not too high. Maximum light intensity should not exceed 350 Lux measured 1 metre from the floor. Provision should be made for shaded areas within the cage to allow the animals to withdraw. b) RABBITS b1) Young and female rabbits should be housed in socially harmonious groups, unless the experimental procedure or welfare requirements make this impossible. b2) Wire floors without the provision of a solid resting area should not be used for rabbits. The materials, design and construction of sladded or perforated floors should provide surfaces which do not produce welfare problems. b3) Pens as well as cages should include environmental enrichment material, e.g. roughage, sticks, an area for withdrawal and nesting material. ISAE is the only organisation of scientists doing animal welfare related research which is represented in the expert group. Thus, your advise is most important. Thank you very much in advance. Markus Stauffacher _____________________________________ Dr. Markus Stauffacher Swiss Federal Institute of Technology ETH Institute of Animal Sciences INW Physiology & Animal Husbandry Schorenstrasse 16 / SLA B21 CH-8603 Schwerzenbach Phone: +41.1.825.73.51 Fax: +41.1.825.04.76 E-mail: markus.stauffacher@inw.agrl.ethz.ch ______________________________________ From: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" 16-FEB-1998 11:51:17.64 To: IN%"belllm@stripe.Colorado.EDU" "Lorraine Bell" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: toe amputation On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:15:12 -0700 (MST) Lorraine Bell wrote: > From: Lorraine Bell > Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:15:12 -0700 (MST) > Subject: RE: toe amputation > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > > If you believe that some level of pain or discomfort is acceptable how do > you determine the "cut-off" point? If you believe that no pain or > discomfort is acceptable, then is there some amount of "interference" that > is acceptable or are all studies other than strictly observational ones > unethical? > > Lorraine Bell Surely the "cut-off point" is that nothing should be cut off. Here in Exeter we use Lister Hooded rats in our lab studies, precisely because they can be identified by their markings. I realise that this is not an option in studies where all members of the subject species look similar, but couldn't other methods, such as electronic tagging or microchip implants, be used instead? Catriona > **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 **************************************************************************** From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 16-FEB-1998 12:16:11.08 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group" CC: Subj: Regurgitation in canids This is also well documented behaviour in Cape Hunting Dogs in the wild. Chris rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ ---------- > From: Istituto di Zootecnica Veterinaria > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Regurgitation during weaning (male dogs) > Date: 16 February 1998 11:30 > > Dear list, > > Anybody have informations on regurgitation by the sire during weaning in > dogs? The question is: breeders claim that is possible for male dogs of > certain breeds to regurgitate for pups during weaning, the breed involved > is the Saluki; Is it possible to find the same behaviour in other breeds? > How can it be explained? > Thank you in advance for the answer, > Best Regards, > Dr.Lucilla Gregoretti From: IN%"j.benge@herts.ac.uk" 16-FEB-1998 12:56:44.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: electronic tagging Dear colleagues Whilst we are on the subject of toe-clipping etc, I am looking for a means of marking water voles (Arvicola terrestris) for a capture-mark-recapture study. At the moment I will probably use ear tags, however I have been informed that they can easily be lost. Dye, and other methods, including toe-clipping have been used by other researchers in the past, but are usually unsatisfactory. If anyone has a contact address for a supplier of microchip implants I would be very keen to look into this method of marking my study animals. Many thanks Jon Benge Landscape & Ecology Research Group University of Hertfordshire Bayfordbury Field station Lower Hatfield Rd Hertford Herts, UK, SG13 8LD Tel +44 1707 285562 Fax +44 1992 503498 Email j.benge@herts.ac.uk From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 16-FEB-1998 13:32:05.52 To: IN%"j.benge@herts.ac.uk" "Jon Benge" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: electronic tagging Jon Benge wrote: > > Dear colleagues > > Whilst we are on the subject of toe-clipping etc, I am looking for a means > of marking water voles (Arvicola terrestris) for a capture-mark-recapture > study. At the moment I will probably use ear tags, however I have been > informed that they can easily be lost. Dye, and other methods, including > toe-clipping have been used by other researchers in the past, but are > usually unsatisfactory. If anyone has a contact address for a supplier of > microchip implants I would be very keen to look into this method of marking > my study animals. > > Many thanks > Jon Benge > > Landscape & Ecology Research Group > University of Hertfordshire > Bayfordbury Field station > Lower Hatfield Rd > Hertford > Herts, UK, SG13 8LD > Tel +44 1707 285562 > Fax +44 1992 503498 > Email j.benge@herts.ac.uk Jon, Avid Canada makes microchips which can be used for this purpose. We have a researcher who is currently testing these for use on small rodents in our (Canada) harsh climate. If they work well I anticipate that the Animal Care Committee (backed by this research) will insist on their use over more invasive methods such as toe clipping. I contacted Doreen Fisher at Avid Canada (address below). At the time they were giving away a reader with the purchase of chips but were nice enough to donate chips and a reader to help this research along. Her address is as follows: Doreen Fisher Avid Canada Suite 204, 619 - 11 Ave. S.E. Calgary, AB, T2G 0Y8 phone (403) 264-6300 fax (403) 263-2055 Nora Lewis From: IN%"motelgrill@hotmail.com" "Sergio Gouveia" 16-FEB-1998 13:44:22.94 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Freshman presentation My name is Sérgio Gouveia, from Lisbon, Portugal, I'm 21 and I am a student in Instituto Superior de Ciencias Sociais e Políticas. I'm very pleased to join you, but i'm sure that i've got much more to learn than to tell you. As i've been working for a study in Political Science about Nationalism, i had to read some essays on ethology and i've became fascinated about the subject. I hope you can forgive me for entering in your group with little to give but my willness to learn is great. My big question is about territory and territorial fighting as i apply territory in my study as a major cause for objective nationalism. Anything i could help you here in Portugal, specially in my university, i would be honored to. We have here a big antropology comunity, tough in ethology there are very few. Please forgive my terrible english. Greetings Sérgio Gouveia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"masuma@lucent.com" 16-FEB-1998 14:03:14.81 To: IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu" "Kale H. McE. Kevan" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: toe cuttin I'll be brave and venture a comment here. I'm not an ethologist and don't have any formal background in this either. I'm a true layperson with a strong interest in this subject, and I prefer to remain on the sidelines reading only. However, I am confused at the direction of this discussion. It seems to me the discussion is spinning around the word "pain" without a definition for that word. Pain, you would probably agree, is different in different people, let alone different species. The question (as I'm interpreting the discussion) isn't whether non-humans indeed feel pain or not, but how much. It seems ridiculous to wonder that, since we can't even figure out "how much" pain is felt by different people provided the same stimulus, how can we venture a guess about other species? If the definition can be normalized (in the mathematical sense) to say, pain is something undesirable and instinct (of every specie) says to avoid it, then the "level of pain" gets taken out of the question. Then one can say, every specie (including the protozoa as pointed out by someone) will feel that unpleasant sensation and try to avoid it. Wouldn't this be the most analytical and "scientific" way of looking at it? Then the only question remaining is a moral and ethical one - how much of that undesirable stimulus is okay to instigate and how much is too much. It is an unanswerable question since empathy (I'm learning from these discussions) cannot or should not exist in a scientific discussion, or a "scientist" is branded anthropomorphic (which seems to be a bad thing?). And it cannot since no human has been able to communicate with other species at this level. I obviously have my own opinions about this, which are totally unscientific, anthropomorphic and emotional, and I'll keep them to myself. (I'm not an ethologist! So I can say.:-) But I do wonder what is wrong in erring on the side of safety and being a little anthropomorphic. Wouldn't that be better than erring on the side of thinking other species don't feel pain? History has shown plenty of examples of certain cultures treating other cultures (all human) as "animals" and believing they don't feel pain, or they will forget or what not. In retrospect those actions were vile and disgusting. What if we could learn that lesson and extend it to all species not just humans. Why must we believe that if we cannot understand it then it must not exist? And one more comment...when I'm skiing and my fingers are frozen, I feel some unpleasant sensation. I don't necessarily interpret it as pain, or great pain, because I'm having fun. If I felt the same pain while I'm sitting on the couch and watching TV, I'd probably be very concerned and label it very differently. I have the (dis)advantage of having multiple brain cells to associate my surroundings with the sensation and make some decisions about what to label it. If I had only one brain cell, or significantly less than an average human's, (with less nerve endings at my fingertips and whatever else has been discussed here) I would interpret that sensation in only one way - unpleasant. Period. So my question is, if I had only one brain cell and could interpret something only one way, wouldn't those sesations (i.e. pain) be all the more acute - and acute at the same level of unpleasantness everytime (since I cannot rationalize the sensation like a human)? With that logic, wouldn't animals feel more "pain" than humans? Their tolerance of it can be much more than humans - but that's more evolution than biological, isn't it? Cave people, I expect, could tolerate a lot more unpleasantness than I can (and I could walk barefoot on pebbles when I was a child!). Hope I'm not missing the boat by a mile here. -- Masuma Barrett Email: masuma@lucent.com Lucent Technologies Voice: (303) 538-1228 11900 N. Pecos, Denver CO 80234 Fax: (303) 538-3907 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 16-FEB-1998 14:31:14.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Toe cuttin The phenomenon of animals disguising illness or injury is well known for species that live in groups and tend to mob and kill the lame and the halt among them. This includes most prey birds, some monkeys, and probably others. To my knowledge this is not a species behavior associated with predators. More specifically, this is not a behavior associated with dogs or cats. Reply to message from fnmaf@aurora.alaska.edu of Mon, 16 Feb > > > >On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, D.B. Cameron wrote: > >> >> Just to quantify your questions: >> Having practiced veterinary medicine for 35 years or so, >> and having observed, as objectively as possible, thousands of >> dogs, cats, and miscellaneous others with all manner of injuries >> both accidental and purposeful (surgery), I can attest to the >> following with, in my opinion, 100% certainty: >> - All the animals that I have encountered do feel pain. >> - The threshold of pain in these animals was invariably >> higher than I have observed (and experienced) in humans. That is, >> given a broken femur, a severe skin tear, a major abdominal >> surgical procedure, etc., the animals that I have observed >> were reliably less reactive to manipulation, more active in a >> normal manner (walking, etc.), less distressingly vocal, less >> shocky than a similarly injured human. >> This phenomenon could be attributed to cognisence >> (conscious realization of personal injury), and probably, to a >> degree this is a factor, but I doubt that it is more than a >> minor factor in external signs of discomfort. >> > >An alternative hypothesis: >A physiologist friend noted the remarkably speedy recovery of normal >behavior in rats that had undergone surgery and suggested that it was not >necessarily because the rats were not in as much physical pain as a human >would be, but because rats and other species may be under stronger >selection to not appear weakened, distressed or injured even when they >are. > >Makes some sense - in many societies, humans get a lot of help and >comfort from others when they are in pain (what about societies where >"stoicism" is more valued?), and this isn't necessarily true in other >species in which competitors and predators may be more likely to take >advantage of an injured animal. If my physiologist friend is right, I >suppose the mechanism could be less "cognisence"...but non-human animals >are known to practice deception too. > >Melissa > > >Melissa A. Fleming, Ph.D. >Mammalogy, University of Alaska Museum >907 Yukon Drive >Fairbanks, AK 99775 >USA >Phone: 907-474-7994 >FAX: 907-474-5469 >Email: fnmaf@aurora.alaska.edu > > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 16-FEB-1998 14:43:41.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Regurgitation during weaning (male dogs) I cannot personally verivy this behavior, but it is relatively easy to explain: - Dogs (Canis lupus, familiaris) are direct descendents of wolves (Canis lupus). As such they inherit most of their genetically based behavior from this social species. Part of that social behavior is for all (male as well as female) members of the pack to feed the young of the pack. Thus when a young pup approaches any adult pack member and gives the,"Please regurgitate some food for me," signal (licking the adult's corner of the lip) the adult reflexly regurgitates. P.S. I am not much of a speller, so please allow some slack when a word does not come out as the dictionary suggests. One of my favorite quotes is from Thomas Jefferson: "I have nothing but contempt for a man who can spell a word only one way!" Reply to message from imiuvezo@imiucca.csi.unimi.it of Mon, 16 Feb > >Dear list, > >Anybody have informations on regurgitation by the sire during weaning in >dogs? The question is: breeders claim that is possible for male dogs of >certain breeds to regurgitate for pups during weaning, the breed involved >is the Saluki; Is it possible to find the same behaviour in other breeds? >How can it be explained? >Thank you in advance for the answer, >Best Regards, >Dr.Lucilla Gregoretti > > > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at" 16-FEB-1998 14:46:31.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"E.RAEZ@CGNET.COM" "Raez, Ernesto Francisco" Subj: (fwd) Natural science and ethics >Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:33:48 -0800 >Reply-To: "Raez, Ernesto Francisco" >Sender: "Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news" > >From: "Raez, Ernesto Francisco" >Subject: Natural science and ethics >To: ECOLOG-L@UMDD.UMD.EDU > >Greetings. When we natural scientists are confronted with ethical >issues, it happens exactly what is happening now in this list on the >issue of digit amputation of small mammals and amphibians. There is a >lot of horrified people (those not involved or experienced in the >specific business), there are those in favor of the practice upon the >base of the lack of something better (usually the practitioners), there >are those in favor of cost/benefit and other "objective" approaches (the >stereotypical cold-minded scientist), and a fair amount of people who >make use of the anthropomorphic fallacy either in favor or against the >practice. > >What this shows is simply that we natural scientists as a group are >rather confused when it comes to ethical issues. Why? Because we are not >explicitly trained in ethics. This is probably the single most important >shortcoming of education in the natural sciences. Increasingly, though, >we are coming to realize that science, just as any other human activity, >must explicitly FOLLOW ethical principles. I am not saying that there is >only one ethical system. What I am saying is that ethics comes first, >and then comes science. Thus, for instance, if we as a society agree >that animals must not be subject to painful treatments for the sake of >knowledge, then it DOES NOT MATTER what is the importance of our >research, we will not consider subjecting animals to damaging >practices, period. No cost/benefit analysis needed here, since the >decision is taken in a completely different domain. That is the domain >of ethics, and it recognizes the fact that we are SOCIAL beings with >CONSCIENCE and EMOTIONS, and it recognizes the fact that our conscience, >our emotions and our social interactions often DO PROVIDE the best >indicator to guide our behavior. > >In other words, those horrified people are the ones who got it right. In >the ethical system that I follow, causing pain and permanent damage to >an animal that is the subject of research is wrong (and I suspect that >is bad science too). I am sure that if we all agreed on the moral rule, >we would soon invent a reliable method to permanently mark small mammals >and amphibians without amputation. Claiming that "there is nothing else >available" only demonstrates intellectual laziness. Are you telling me >that if all those years of "toe-clipping" had been also used to think >hard on an alternative method, we would have been unable to find it? Are >we so technologically weak? Are small-mammal and amphibian scientists so >dumb? I doubt it. > >Advocating for "objective" analysis misplaces the problem in the wrong >domain. The suggested rule is: first you decide what you will not do, >based upon ethics, then you go and do your science. Ethics, a social >construct, changes with society. And science (another social construct) >has influenced ethics quite a lot. But those who think that, for >instance, we should not discriminate upon the base of sex BECAUSE >science has demonstrated that men and women are equally smart (or >stupid), got it all wrong. We must not discriminate based upon sex >because we do not want our children to learn to mistreat another human >being, because we decided that all human beings must be equal in rights, >because we believe that non-discrimination is a keystone condition for >achieving a happier society, etc. It does not matter if men or women are >more intelligent (I vote for women, though). We already decided that ANY >differences in intelligence that could be found are NON SIGNIFICANT in >ethical terms and for all practical purposes. It is not science but the >accumulated experience of our culture what leads to this conclusion. >Science may help us to improve our ethical system, because it helps us >to understand our world. That does not mean that morality should be >based upon science. Those who jump to that conclusion simply learned >their logic all wrong. > >Hopefully, the day will come when explicit training in ethical thinking >becomes a common practice in our schools and universities. Hopefully >then natural scientists will stop taking their scientific texts as a >replacement for the Bible. Cordially, > >ERNESTO F. RAEZ-LUNA >CIAT - Centro Internacional de Agricultura Tropical >A.A. 6713, Cali, COLOMBIA > >Tel.: (572) 4450000 >Fax: (572) 4450073 >E-mail: e.raez@cgnet.com > From: IN%"shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at" 16-FEB-1998 14:46:40.99 To: IN%"ECOLOG-L@UMDD.UMD.EDU" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"E.RAEZ@CGNET.COM" "Raez, Ernesto Francisco" Subj: RE: Natural science and ethics Dear Dr. Raez, As a reader of several newsgroups / lists, I have forwarded your message, regarding toe-clipping to the Applied Ethology List, where this discussion is on. IT is *NOT* on Ecolog-L! For everybody, who wants to join the discussion: ============================================== This is how to join the discussion list: To subscribe do the following: _____________________________________________ To: applied-ethology-request@sask.usask.ca From: *YOUR NAME and EMAIL* Subject: ---------------------------------------------- SUBSCRIBE applied-ethology *YOUR NAME* (this is in message body) _____________________________________________ To send to the list, you have to *subscribe* first, then send to: ============================================================================ =========== All I am doing, is passing on messages because I feel that it is an important topic to discuss... Werner From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 16-FEB-1998 14:48:59.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Toe cuttin Of course, there are always individual variations. I was reporting on thousands of observations. Reply to message from lynfra@globalnet.co.uk of Mon, 16 Feb > > >> - All the animals that I have encountered do feel pain. >> - The threshold of pain in these animals was invariably >>higher than I have observed (and experienced) in humans. That is, >>given a broken femur, a severe skin tear, a major abdominal >>surgical procedure, etc., the animals that I have observed >>were reliably less reactive to manipulation, more active in a >>normal manner (walking, etc.), less distressingly vocal, less >>shocky than a similarly injured human. > > Slightly off subject----but not too much!-----I have know many cases of >children who have been neglected and have not reacted to hurt and pain in >the same way as their peer group. > > If a child falls over it generally yells-----whether it is hurt or not, a >child who has no expectation of sympathy can be quite badly grazed----and in >one case had broken an arm----and will not react obviously to the pain. I >have also seen a child lose a chunk of hair to another and she didn't cry >out or expect a reaction from the adults around. > > Working on this as a basis maybe reaction to pain is a learnt >behaviour---doesn't mean the pain is any different! > > I have a couple of my dogs who will come for sympathy if they collide and >yelp---I have taught them to do this! The others don't bother! Pain is the >same, reaction is different. > > lynn -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 16-FEB-1998 15:20:08.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: electronic tagging While we are dancing on the pinhead of, "Where do we draw the line", Please share your materials and methods of just exactly how you determined in this tiny species that injecting a microchip under the dermis is personally (for the "small rodent") less objectionable than a toe-clip. Reply to message from Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca of Mon, 16 Feb > >Jon Benge wrote: >> >> Dear colleagues >> >> Whilst we are on the subject of toe-clipping etc, I am looking for a means >> of marking water voles (Arvicola terrestris) for a capture-mark-recapture >> study. At the moment I will probably use ear tags, however I have been >> informed that they can easily be lost. Dye, and other methods, including >> toe-clipping have been used by other researchers in the past, but are >> usually unsatisfactory. If anyone has a contact address for a supplier of >> microchip implants I would be very keen to look into this method of marking >> my study animals. >> >> Many thanks >> Jon Benge >> >> Landscape & Ecology Research Group >> University of Hertfordshire >> Bayfordbury Field station >> Lower Hatfield Rd >> Hertford >> Herts, UK, SG13 8LD >> Tel +44 1707 285562 >> Fax +44 1992 503498 >> Email j.benge@herts.ac.uk > >Jon, > >Avid Canada makes microchips which can be used for this purpose. We have >a researcher who is currently testing these for use on small rodents in >our (Canada) harsh climate. If they work well I anticipate that the >Animal Care Committee (backed by this research) will insist on their use >over more invasive methods such as toe clipping. > >I contacted Doreen Fisher at Avid Canada (address below). At the time >they were giving away a reader with the purchase of chips but were nice >enough to donate chips and a reader to help this research along. > >Her address is as follows: >Doreen Fisher >Avid Canada >Suite 204, 619 - 11 Ave. S.E. >Calgary, AB, T2G 0Y8 >phone (403) 264-6300 >fax (403) 263-2055 > >Nora Lewis > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at" 16-FEB-1998 15:37:22.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Chopin ! I believe that it was / is very important to discuss this topic. Hitherto we have heard many opinions, .... pros and contras ... All of them: IMPORTANT! * - It would be necessary to hear *official* statements / guidelines about the use / legislation /acceptability of the method from different organizations / countries. ======================================================================= Dr. Werner Haberl Hamburgerstr. 11, A-1050 Vienna, Austria Email: shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at URL: http://members.vienna.at/shrew (The Shrew (ist's) Site) ======================================================================= From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 16-FEB-1998 16:59:44.82 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Regurgitation during weaning (male dogs) At 11:30 AM 2/16/98 +0000, you wrote: >Dear list, > >Anybody have informations on regurgitation by the sire during weaning in >dogs? The question is: breeders claim that is possible for male dogs of >certain breeds to regurgitate for pups during weaning, the breed involved >is the Saluki; Is it possible to find the same behaviour in other breeds? >How can it be explained? >Thank you in advance for the answer, >Best Regards, >Dr.Lucilla Gregoretti > >Kerstin Malm wrote a doctoral thesis at the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences , Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, in Skara, Sweden, on regurgitation in dogs. I can't read the thesis, it is in Swedish, but in the English summary it is reported that 65% of breeders observed regurgitation at least once in their dogs. Genetic and environmental variables appear to influence incidence of regurgitation. Regurgitation was observed from mother, father, elder sister/brother, aunt/uncle, and unrelated individuals. No further details are given in the summary, and my Swedish doesn't even go far enough to guess the information given in the tables. It does make sense that a pack supports the alpha female in raising her puppies, because this increases inclusive fitness of the pack members. The behavior would be particularly adaptive in the father of the pups, since he propagates his genes that way and increases his fitness. Andrew Luescher > > From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 16-FEB-1998 17:09:10.16 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The image of ethologists (re: toe cutting) Debbie Andreadis Just one comment. The fact that animals go back to the traps does not indicate that they don't find toe cutting aversive. Toe cutting comes much too late after the fact of being caught. Punishment (i.e. any aversive consequence of a behavior that reduces reoccurrence of that behavior) is only effective if it follows the behavior immediately, i.e. within .5 seconds or so (with very few specific exceptions such as taste aversion). Therefore animals cannot learn not to enter the trap again by the probably unpleasant experience of toe cutting, which I assume occurs quite some time after the trapping. Andrew Luescher At 10:06 AM 2/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >I am not an ethologist, but I do have some experience with the reaction of >small mammals to different marking techniques, and I just wanted to add a >few comments. > >At 0:05 -0500 2/16/1998, shale@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu wrote: >>On Feb 15, Alan Rivet wrote: >>>The cortex is also in charge of memorisation. So, if >>>those animals feel pain, they won't remember it once it's over. >> >>Depends on what you mean by "remember." I would think that pain stimulus >>could alter behavior (and perhaps alter affect or emotion) long after the >>stimulus had passed. > >This is not apparently the case with the animals I have marked by various >means >(toe clipping, coloration of skin or fur, ear tags). These included >*Peromyscus* and other small rodents as well as *Blarina*. All animals, no >matter how they were >marked, were just as likely to return to the trap the next night and the >next week >(and the recapture rate is high). I also found no difference in the overall >number of >times caught with various techniques, or the amount of weight change. All >of this suggests to me that the experience is not a greatly traumatic one. >The current evidence (no decrease in longevity, no effect on growth rates) >suggests that toe clipped rodents >are not impaired in daily life. I can also attest to the fact that these >animals protest >more to the initial capture where they are taken in hand than they do to >subsequent marking efforts. All this said, I still prefer not to use toe >clipping when any other alternative is available, particularly in an >arboreal species, because common sense >tells me that it has to make things more difficult to not have all your >toes, and >because I have a very human negative reaction to mutilation of all kinds. > >Debby Andreadis >dka@utk.edu From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 16-FEB-1998 18:04:02.38 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: toe cuttin Alain Rivet I was glad to see that you got lots of good answers to you contribution. I am actually just involved in teaching a graduate course on anthropomorphism, and will duplicate some of the discussion for my students. Just one comment to memory. As far as I know, if a planaria is learned a simple task (as to avoid something) and you cut it to pieces (I don't want to start a discussion on cutting up planarias, though) each part grows into a planaria that "remembers" the task. If this is so, it's hardly a function of a cortex... Andrew Luescher At 11:11 PM 2/15/98 -0500, you wrote: > >>On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Curt Walker wrote: >> >>> We don't and can't know what it feels like to a mouse or vole which has= a >>> toe or 2 chopped off. Their brains aren't even as big as the tip of my >>> pinky, and are perfectly smooth, so lil surface area. =20 >> >>As I understand it, the part of the brain that registers pain is a >>'primitive' part which we humans share with dumb things like fishes and >>amphibians. Folds on the cortex (? outer part of the brain) don't have >>anything to do with it.=20 > >In fact, I think it does. Some neurophysiologists in here could correct me >if I'm wrong but from what I recall, the cortex is responsible for >perception. We are not even sure that 'dumb' animals (without cortex) even >feel pain at all. The cortex is also in charge of memorisation. So, if >those animals feel pain, they won't remember it once it's over. So you >can't compare pain felt by those animals with pain felt by humans (who >suffer from an hypertrophy of the cortex, compared to all the other >animals.) Toe-cutting could be no more stressful than being catched or >handled for 'cortex-free' animals. > > >>strikes me as irresponsible. Following this logic it would be acceptable >>for me to cut the toes off my Japanese neighbor because he cannot tell me >>in a language that I understand that it is painful to him, aside from >>struggling, fighting and making a horrid noise. I imagine a mouse does >>these things as well. Taking it further, it would even be acceptable for >>me to cut -your- toes off, since I do not know how pain feels to you. It's >>possible that you enjoy it emmensely but have been conditioned by your >>psychiatrist (in an attept to cure you of your twisted masochistic >>tendancies) to react as if it is unpleasant in the extreme. > >Please! Let us stay serious...Again, the degree of conceptualization of a >human being when pain is inflicted unto him is millions of years away in >term of evolution from what the mouse or shrew is able to do.=20 > >We have to keep those kind of arguments very close to earth if we ever want >to be able to convince the public that what we do is serious and by doing >that, help the animals to get a better life. If we compare the mental >processes of mice and humans, we'll loose all credibility (and we already >sound way too much romantic for most people). > >Alain Rivet >Universit=E9 Laval > > From: IN%"csunsay@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu" "Ceyhun Sunsay" 16-FEB-1998 19:55:39.29 To: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: toe cuttin Andrew Luescher, Absolutely. I'm not an expert in this issue. Memory of bological events such as pain, may not require cortex. Who knows may not require a neuron. Memory of cognitive events such as episodes, may require a cortex. Ceyhun =20 On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Andrew Luescher wrote: > Alain Rivet >=20 > I was glad to see that you got lots of good answers to you contribution. = I > am actually just involved in teaching a graduate course on > anthropomorphism, and will duplicate some of the discussion for my studen= ts. >=20 > Just one comment to memory. As far as I know, if a planaria is learned a > simple task (as to avoid something) and you cut it to pieces (I don't wan= t > to start a discussion on cutting up planarias, though) each part grows in= to > a planaria that "remembers" the task. If this is so, it's hardly a functi= on > of a cortex... >=20 > Andrew Luescher >=20 >=20 >=20 > At 11:11 PM 2/15/98 -0500, you wrote: > > > >>On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Curt Walker wrote: > >> > >>> We don't and can't know what it feels like to a mouse or vole which h= as a > >>> toe or 2 chopped off. Their brains aren't even as big as the tip of = my > >>> pinky, and are perfectly smooth, so lil surface area. =20 > >> > >>As I understand it, the part of the brain that registers pain is a > >>'primitive' part which we humans share with dumb things like fishes and > >>amphibians. Folds on the cortex (? outer part of the brain) don't have > >>anything to do with it.=20 > > > >In fact, I think it does. Some neurophysiologists in here could correct = me > >if I'm wrong but from what I recall, the cortex is responsible for > >perception. We are not even sure that 'dumb' animals (without cortex) ev= en > >feel pain at all. The cortex is also in charge of memorisation. So, if > >those animals feel pain, they won't remember it once it's over. So you > >can't compare pain felt by those animals with pain felt by humans (who > >suffer from an hypertrophy of the cortex, compared to all the other > >animals.) Toe-cutting could be no more stressful than being catched or > >handled for 'cortex-free' animals. > > > > > >>strikes me as irresponsible. Following this logic it would be acceptabl= e > >>for me to cut the toes off my Japanese neighbor because he cannot tell = me > >>in a language that I understand that it is painful to him, aside from > >>struggling, fighting and making a horrid noise. I imagine a mouse does > >>these things as well. Taking it further, it would even be acceptable fo= r > >>me to cut -your- toes off, since I do not know how pain feels to you. I= t's > >>possible that you enjoy it emmensely but have been conditioned by your > >>psychiatrist (in an attept to cure you of your twisted masochistic > >>tendancies) to react as if it is unpleasant in the extreme. > > > >Please! Let us stay serious...Again, the degree of conceptualization of = a > >human being when pain is inflicted unto him is millions of years away in > >term of evolution from what the mouse or shrew is able to do.=20 > > > >We have to keep those kind of arguments very close to earth if we ever w= ant > >to be able to convince the public that what we do is serious and by doin= g > >that, help the animals to get a better life. If we compare the mental > >processes of mice and humans, we'll loose all credibility (and we alread= y > >sound way too much romantic for most people). > > > >Alain Rivet > >Universit=E9 Laval From: IN%"kjohnson@manawatu.gen.nz" "Ken Johnson" 16-FEB-1998 20:51:08.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Pain Masuma Barrett's concern about pain is understandable, but a few thoughts about how we humans behave when faced with pain may reveal different ways of interpreting its significance for biology and animal welfare. The circulated message says "Pain is something undesirable and instinct (of every specie) says to avoid it...." But is that true ? The question is almost answered later in the same message where it says "when I'm skiing and my fingers are frozen, I feel some unpleasant sensation. I don't necessarily interpret it as pain, or great pain, because I'm having fun. If I felt the same pain while I'm sitting on the couch and watching TV, I'd probably be very concerned". Isn't it true that people frequently (I mean at least daily) choose to accept pain rather than avoid it ? Some people choose to play games like football that bruise muscles and break teeth. Some voluntarily trek to the South Pole in excruciating conditions. Others stay in the garden when it is uncomfortably hot or cold because they want to see the flowers later on. Some simply choose to go for a walk despite their arthritis. Maybe a more convincing explanation than saying pain is to be avoided is to note that we frequently 'trade-off' particular pains for rewards of other types that we judge to be preferable. We may stay in near-freezing cold to chat to our best friend, but will excuse ourselves and move to shelter if talking to someone who is boring. Other animals follow similar strategies. Rats will go out to forage in extremes of heat or cold, presumably because the food reward is greater than the thermal discomfort. During the mating season rams pursue ewes, foregoing much foraging time, losing weight, and being driven to vigorous panting by overheating, all in order to achieve their reproductive goals. The pain/discomfort for them, as apparently for us, depends on what is at stake. So when you "wonder what is wrong in erring on the side of safety and being a little anthropomorphic" ? Nothing - we and they respond in the same way. What remains controversial is where to draw the line describing the balance point. But remember, the balance point is probably not "zero pain". How much or little pain we 'trade-off' depends on what we are doing and why - walking barefoot across hot, rough ground to save a life or have a swim ? The trade-off can be used to improve welfare in practice. Moderate pain may become acceptable to children if they're given a word of reassurance after having fallen and skinned their knees. Pain/discomfort for a sheep may be rendered tolerable by a feed of lucerne if a farmer has just disrupted its life by shearing it. Finally about the "(dis)advantage of having multiple brain cells to associate my surroundings with the sensation and make some decisions about [whether] to label" an experience as painful or not. I'm sure a little reading (try some standard animal behaviour text) would convince you that simple animals have surprising abilities to remember, and to integrate multiple inputs. Of course it's true some animals don't - but then some of us humans don't do it so well in those directions either. Ken Johnson **************************************************************** Dr Ken Johnson, Veterinary & Biomedical Sciences, Murdoch University. W.A. 6150 On Study Leave during Feb, March and April 1998 at: Institute of Food, Nutrition and Human Health, Massey University, Private Bag 11222, Palmerston North. N.Z. Ph: +64 (6) 356 9099 Ext.7362; Fax: TBA E-mail kjohnson@central.murdoch.edu.au OR kjohnson@numbat.murdoch.edu.au OR the address at the head of this message - up until 20th April 1998 ****************************************************************** From: IN%"jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp" "Janice Willard" 16-FEB-1998 23:11:11.46 To: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: toe clipping and lambs tails >> I >> know that some people object to cutting tails from lambs. And certianly, it >> does cause them pain. But when I have missed a lamb tail and that lamb grew >> up, the tailed sheep is of a much greater risk for getting fly-strike--where >> fly larva burrow into the moist wool under the tail and eventually into the >> animal itself, sometimes killing it and certianly causing a great deal more >> discomfort than the initial tail cutting did. And the sooner after birth >> that I cut the tails, the less discomfort it seemed to cause. So if you look >> at the single event in time, it looks like I am brutalizing little baby >> lambs, when I am in fact saving them from eventual greater harm. > >By coincidence, while out walking yesterday, I saw some well-grown lambs on which the tails and area in the >immediate vicinity had been shorn. The tails themselves were intact. I assume that this was an alternative method >of preventing fly-strike - does anyone out there know if it works? > Are sheep the only 'woolly' or long-haired animals at risk from fly-strike? How do wild ones cope >without human interference? >Just wondering.... >Catriona Catriona, To answer a few of your questions to the best of my knowledge--I believe that fly strike is also found in wild animals and I have seen pictures of it in abused dogs which were living in filthy conditions. Flys are opertunists, so any injury or illness (like diarrhea) which causes damp, soiled fur when it is warm enough for flys to be around are conditions for fly strike. Wild animals "cope" by either recovering or dying. Domestic sheep are at particular risk because they have been so genetically altered. The wool is actually undercoat hair which, unlike most other animals, does not shed. (Sheep only have guard hair on their face and legs--other places it is a fault because interferes with the quality of the wool). The wild precurser of the domestic sheep had a small tail, like that of a deer or Rocky Mountain Big Horn Sheep. It is my understanding that early sheep breeders bred domestic sheep to have longer tails as a location for fat storage. Sheep in dry mountainous areas would rarely have problems with fly strike. So it is the genetic alterations placed thousands of years ago by humans which leads to this predisposition. Shaving the tail area is one way to avoid fly strike, however, because of the time of year, the sheep you saw yesterday were probably sheared in preparation for lambing. Cleaning up the tail area allows for less mess during lambing and allows the shepherd to better gauge when a ewe is close to parturition. This is often done by good managers even with sheep with docked tails. Shaving the tail area to avoid fly strike would also be a good preventative, but it puts you back into an ethical question again. It is labor intensive and involves restraining and shearing the sheep more often than they would ordinarily get sheared. Sheep do not use their tails like horses and cows do to swat at annoying flys in the summer. The tails don't in fact do anything for them and there would be a problem with complience in asking a shepherd to do this in every sheep every summer. Another method would be to just keep a close eye on the sheep and treat any which are developing fly strike. This would involve catching the sheep, trimming off the wet, infested wool and spraying the area with an insecticide -- generally an organophosphate. Again, here, one would have to rely on the quality of the animal's caretaker to observe and treat this before it gets bad (and the animal would already have suffered some discomfort by this time because it is the way the ewe is twitching and jumping in the field which would alert the shepherd that she is infested). So sheep have been genetically altered from the wild type and these alterations make them more suceptible to a particular disease condition. I have heard of attempts (in South Dakota, I think?) to breed the sheep back to having a short tail like their precursor, but this was not sucessful, to my knowledge. That being the case, one has to weigh the alternatives of suceptability to this condition with a tail that does not seem to contribute to the animal, against the short term discomfort of cutting off the tail. Because I am not a good manager and was always going to school and/or working at the same time that I had sheep, I opted to cut the tails and be done with it. I felt that this was better than the possibility that I might be busy and would miss a case of fly strike before it got bad. There are many methods of tail removal and I opted for cutting at 2-3 days of age because it was my observation that this seemed to cause the least bleeding and discomfort. I would still get a case of fly strike every several years, once and a while in a sheep with a docked tail which had suffered from diarrhea or a sheep whose tail got missed because I was too busy at lambing. But these were my choices as to what was best for the animals based on my observations and level of management. I would not ask another shepherd to make the same choices, as their experience might be different. *************************************************************************** Janice Willard, DVM MS Tokyo 194, Machida-shi Higashi Tamagawa Gakuen 1-33-66 Japan Phone/FAX (81)427-29-4519 Message FAX (81)427-21-2850 jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp From: IN%"aae763@agora.ulaval.ca" "Alain Rivet" 16-FEB-1998 23:19:38.60 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Long answer Hello everyone.=20 God, I've never had so much mails in only a day. ;-) Ok, before I'm tagged as the facsist-who-likes-to-torture-animals on this list, I would like to clarify my thoughts. Andrew Luescher wrote: >Just one comment to memory. As far as I know, if a planaria is learned a >simple task (as to avoid something) and you cut it to pieces (I don't want >to start a discussion on cutting up planarias, though) each part grows into >a planaria that "remembers" the task. If this is so, it's hardly a function >of a cortex... And shale@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu wrote: >While the romantic tendency to project one's own=20 >feelings onto nature is certainly not scientific, neither is the a priori= =20 >denial of shared feelings between human and nonhuman animals. Absolutely. But will we stop doing all research on planarias or even bacteria (who have been reported to flee from unfavorable environments) because some automatic reaction could be described as 'fleeing from pain'? I think there is a difference between a reflex and pain and its anticipation. Awareness is the issue here. I don't know about mice and small mammals and I don't like the idea of tagging them by cutting their toes. I know I would have a hard time doing it myself (Yes, I do get pretty anthropomorphic sometimes). What I know is that you can't compare the anguish caused by traumatic experiences in animals (especially the ones with brains much less developped than ours) vs humans. And I know I would just laugh if someone came and said: 'Hey, bacteria feel pain. THey tried to avoid an area where salinity was too high for their survival. We should stop the experiment, they have a notion of life and death'. In very simple animals, reactions to pain stimuli is not awareness, it's programming (salinity too high, wag that flagella the other way..).=20 Kale wrote: >Why is it that it matters if the animal remembers it? Does that make it >acceptable to torture humans as a fun hobby, providing you hire a >hyponotist to repress their memories of the experience afterwards? Do you >mean by this argument that remembered pain is continued pain, or that the >memory of pain is in some way worse than pain itself?=20 'My heart fears suffering' said the young man to the alchemist, a night they were staring at the moonless sky. 'Tell your heart that fear is worse than pain itself...' Coelho, The alchemist (sorry, it fitted too well...) >If there is pain >from losing a toe I doubt it dissapears immediately; the wound probably >hurts for several days before it's healed. Does this continued pain >'count' the same as remembered pain?=20 It does. But I assume that the scientists performing toe cutting do it carefully and try to take measures to make it as brief and 'clean' as possible.=20 It's not exactly the rememberance that is important but the degree of conceptualization of what is happening to them that is. Let me give you an example... The Bembex is a small wasp that takes extremly good care of its larvae. For days, they dig the earth to build a nest, lay the egg and bring several flies (one at a time so it takes many trips) to the nest to feed the larvae once it is hatched, always remembering exactly where is the nest that is dug (digged?) in sand. One could say that it is an example of maternal caring and that we should be careful not to squash wasps because they can feel love for their youngs. But this, of course, would be a mistake. Just remove the door closing the nest when the mother leaves to get some flies and upon her return, she will abandon her young. She can see it, squirming inches from her face...She may even inspect the nest, walking on the flies and larvae without discrimination but without the door, she will never take care of it again. She is not a loving mother. She's a machine, programmed to recognize some landmarks identifying her nest and then, to bury through the door to leave her burden. If the program is bugged (if the door is not there), she reboots. She dig another nest, lay another egg and begins the procees again. In simple animals, pain is not what we feel when we hit a toe on the corner of some furniture. It is a program, a code (hey move your leg, it's being squashed...) I know I wouldn't stop from typing too hard if you put some sensor under the keys my computer if it was programmed to say ouch! everytime I went beyond a certain point. You also wrote: >I'm perfectly serious. If people want to say it is okay to hurt a shrew >because we don't know what it feels like to the shrew, I've got to point >out that we don't know what it feels like to ANYONE or ANYTHING aside from >ourselves as individuals. I'm not saying that shrews feel the same way >humans do, I'm saying that 'it's okay because we don't know' is a bad >argument.=20 We couldn't agree more and I hope it's not what I said.What I am saying is that it MIGHT be ok, if it served some purpose, IF the shrew itself didn't know what happens, if it didnt feel pain but followed a program. >Ethologists might, but I don't. As a philosopher I can go around making >all sorts of ridiculous claims (you are just a brain in a vat, being >manipulated by an evil demon; there is an ideal spiritual form of chair >someplace in the heavens; etc) and I'd hopefully just get famous.=20 Lucky you. But what I hope is that when an ethologist asserts something like 'Don't use that kind of pens, they put your animals in distress', he'll be listened because he has scientific proof of what he is asserting and not looked at with stares that say: Yeah right! that's the guy who thinks bacteria feel pain.' You finally said: >Entirely devoid of emnity The same here. I hope it didn't sound otherwise. I do get carried away sometimes... ;-) Well, that's it folks.=20 Alain Rivet Universit=E9 Laval From: IN%"Nabil.Brandl@SH.DK" "Nabil Brandl" 17-FEB-1998 01:23:29.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Tail cutting of milking cow Is it ok that milk producers cutting the tail of milking cows when they are young? It seems to be accepted in Minnesota state and some veterenians are satisfied. Nabil Brandl The Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Research Center Foulum P.O. Box 50 8830 Tjele, Denmark HomePage: http://www.sh.dk/~nabil e-mail: Nabil.Brandl@sh.dk > From: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM. Sherwin" 17-FEB-1998 04:00:54.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: tails/fly-strike/mulesing Dear All, The presence of a long tail is only half the story with respect to causes of fly-strike in sheep. In comparitively recent times of domestication, it was thought that more wrinkles in the skin of sheep would lead to a larger surface area of skin and therefore greater yields of wool. So, sheep were bred to be more wrinkly, especially around the hind-quarters of the animals. Unfortunately, these wrinkles are highly efficient harbours of moisture and so attract flies as suitable sites in which to lay their eggs. This leads to fly-strike. A common method (or at least it used to be a common method) of attempting to avoid fly-strike is to remove the skin around the rump and backs of the legs of the sheep (mulesing). Sometimes the tail is also removed in the same operation (radical mulesing). The scarified tissue has less wrinkles and is therefore less prone to fly-strike. Chris Sherwin University of Bristol From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" 17-FEB-1998 05:25:11.08 To: IN%"Nabil.Brandl@SH.DK" "Nabil Brandl" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" Subj: RE: Tail cutting of milking cow On Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:26:34 +0100 Nabil Brandl wrote: > From: Nabil Brandl > Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:26:34 +0100 > Subject: Tail cutting of milking cow > To: "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" > > Is it ok that milk producers cutting the tail of milking cows when they > are young? > It seems to be accepted in Minnesota state and some veterenians are > satisfied. > > Nabil Brandl > The Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences > Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare > Research Center Foulum > P.O. Box 50 8830 Tjele, Denmark > HomePage: http://www.sh.dk/~nabil > e-mail: Nabil.Brandl@sh.dk > > > **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 I have just read about tail cutting in cattle & sheep. Both of these practises, if one is interested in the animals wellbeing I would suggest are unacceptable. If you start cutting things off the animal, where do you stop ? and why not just have your protein in a bottle? Cattles tails are there for keeping away flies, but also for communication, just as in dogs and convey various messages to others concerning the general emotional state of the communicator, and possible specific messages. Do sheep have to have their tails cut off to prevent fly strike? For the last 25 years we have been keeping sheep without detailing them. We have had some fly strike, but not more than any other farm I would suggest. The point is that ones management must be deceint and one must, at dangerous times of the year, keep a careful eye on the sheep. The practies in Australia of " muelsing", mentioned by Chris, is I would suggest quite unacceptable. The reason it is done ( and we have no figures at the moment, at least I have not been able to get them, of the number of animals that die as a result) is because the farmers cant be bothered to keep a good eye on their sheep, and treat them if they get strike. The arugment against this is how can possible keep an eye over the thousands of acres and square miles her farms? The retort to this is if he cant farm the large acres appropriately without causing distress to his animals, then he should not be doing it, perhaps he had better give up and go and drive a train! But not a sheep train, another particularly outrageous practise in Australia for getting the sheep to ports to export live to Arabic countries so that they can be killed on arrival in a Muslim way which often does not allow for prestunning. Perhaps it is time these sorts of practise were seriously examined, and tail cutting in the European sheep. Marthe Kiley-Worthington. **************************************************************************** From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" 17-FEB-1998 05:30:08.48 To: IN%"kjohnson@manawatu.gen.nz" "Ken Johnson" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Pain **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 **************************************************************************** Kens points are well taken. Pain, may be voluntarily entered into as it were if the trade offs are good in one way or another. Of course the same applies to psychological distress, without distress how would we or other animals be able to appreciate pleasure? The problem is how much is too much. A life without any stress is achievable by being drugged or asleep the whole time, but not something that we consider desirable for either us or animals, or do we? From: IN%"SUAHLSTR@vetmed.helsinki.fi" "Ahlstrom Susanna" 17-FEB-1998 05:40:14.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: black spray for pigs Dear All, we are going to record behaviour of sows at night using surveillance cameras and infrared light. We are going to mark pigs individually with sprayed patterns. Yesterday I learnt in practice that black colour seems to be the only one which can be seen clearly on videoscreen when recording in darkness using IR light. Our sows are in groups of twelve and spraying is rather practical method to mark them. There are black crayons available in Finland, but black sprays I have not been able to get anywkere. Crayons are difficult because you have to get proper contact with a pig in order to make clear patterns and we will have to remark them during observations. We are able to get all the technical equipment, but now this black spray is missing. I am really grateful for ideas and suggestions. Sincerely, Susanna Susanna Ahlstrom, DVM, MSc Section of Animal Hygiene Faculty of Veterinary Medicine P.O.Box 57 00014 University of Helsinki Finland tel. + 358 (0)9 708 49571 mobile + 358 (0)50 544 8081 email susanna.ahlstrom@helsinki.fi From: IN%"dorothy.mckeegan@bbsrc.ac.uk" "dorothy.mckeegan" 17-FEB-1998 05:51:22.48 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Pica in birds Dear list Does anyone have any information on the ingestion of non-nutritive material in birds (not including grit consumption)? All I have found so far is some information on parrots and ostriches. Thanking you in advance Dorothy McKeegan dorothy.mckeegan@bbsrc.ac.uk Environment and Welfare Division Roslin Institute Roslin Midlothian EH25 9PS From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" 17-FEB-1998 05:52:34.87 To: IN%"js7958@bristol.ac.uk" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: your mail On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:47:34 +0000 (GMT) JC Scotton, D100 wrote: > From: JC Scotton, D100 > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:47:34 +0000 (GMT) > Subject: > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Dear All, > I am a veterinary student at Bristol university, and am > currently reseaching ethics and welfare issues concerned with the > castration of lambs. If anyone could be of any help with information, > views etc. concerning this issue, please e-mail me as soon as possible > at the address below. > Thankyou for your time, > John Scotton. > > ---------------------- > js7958@bristol.ac.uk **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 About 25 years ago I argued that castration of sheep was unnecessary for various reasons, and for the last so many years we on our experiemental farm have been raising all male lambs uncastrated and they go off either as fat lamb or are kept as rams. The Organic market now and previously the ordinary market have never objected to ram lambs, and there is an added advantage in growth, around 17% I seem to remember was the figure usually quoted. The only problem comes if the lambs to not grow well and are not up to weight but over around 6 months old particularly in the autumn when they will begin trying to cover the ewes. If seperated then, they gain weight OK but rather slowly as they spend more time fighting etc rather than just growing. However early quck growing ram lambs work well. Of course, as I mentioned we do not cut the tails off either! Marthe K-W **************************************************************************** From: IN%"SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk" "Nigel Goodwin" 17-FEB-1998 07:10:00.73 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Trap addiction (re: toe cutting) Andrew Luescher wrote: > The fact that animals go back to the traps does not > indicate that they don't find toe cutting aversive. Toe cutting comes much > too late after the fact of being caught. Debby Andreadis wrote: > >All animals, no matter how they were > >marked, were just as likely to return to the trap the next night and the > >next week (and the recapture rate is high). I've heard of mark-release-recapture experiments being ruined through the phenomenon of trap addiction: an animal may return to the trap with a higher than random probability, because it knows it will get a meal, a safe bed for the night, and will be freed the next day. Tying this in with Andrew's comment suggests that a species with less reasoning power than ourselves may not make the connection between the benefits of entering the trap, and the unpleasant consequences afterwards - especially since the animal presumably doesn't get a toe chopped off *every* time it's caught! I'm not making any comment for or against toe cutting - I just wanted to reinforce Andrew's warning not to jump to the wrong conclusions. And I hope I attributed both of those quotes to the right people: if not then I would also warn against these confusing "cascade" discussions! Nigel From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 17-FEB-1998 07:30:41.54 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: toe cuttin Alain Rivet I don't quite see where you draw the line. Creatures as simple as Aplysia can learn to show a withdrawl reaction to a conditioned stimulus that was paired earlier with a pain sensation. Seems to me that is remembering an, event, without a brain being involved. Andrew At 08:55 PM 2/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >Andrew Luescher, >Absolutely. I'm not an expert in this issue. Memory of bological events >such as pain, may not require cortex. Who knows may not require a neuron. >Memory of cognitive events such as episodes, may require a cortex. >Ceyhun =20 > >On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Andrew Luescher wrote: > >> Alain Rivet >>=20 >> I was glad to see that you got lots of good answers to you contribution.= I >> am actually just involved in teaching a graduate course on >> anthropomorphism, and will duplicate some of the discussion for my students. >>=20 >> Just one comment to memory. As far as I know, if a planaria is learned a >> simple task (as to avoid something) and you cut it to pieces (I don't= want >> to start a discussion on cutting up planarias, though) each part grows= into >> a planaria that "remembers" the task. If this is so, it's hardly a= function >> of a cortex... >>=20 >> Andrew Luescher >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> At 11:11 PM 2/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >> > >> >>On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Curt Walker wrote: >> >> >> >>> We don't and can't know what it feels like to a mouse or vole which has a >> >>> toe or 2 chopped off. Their brains aren't even as big as the tip of= my >> >>> pinky, and are perfectly smooth, so lil surface area. =20 >> >> >> >>As I understand it, the part of the brain that registers pain is a >> >>'primitive' part which we humans share with dumb things like fishes and >> >>amphibians. Folds on the cortex (? outer part of the brain) don't have >> >>anything to do with it.=20 >> > >> >In fact, I think it does. Some neurophysiologists in here could correct= me >> >if I'm wrong but from what I recall, the cortex is responsible for >> >perception. We are not even sure that 'dumb' animals (without cortex)= even >> >feel pain at all. The cortex is also in charge of memorisation. So, if >> >those animals feel pain, they won't remember it once it's over. So you >> >can't compare pain felt by those animals with pain felt by humans (who >> >suffer from an hypertrophy of the cortex, compared to all the other >> >animals.) Toe-cutting could be no more stressful than being catched or >> >handled for 'cortex-free' animals. >> > >> > >> >>strikes me as irresponsible. Following this logic it would be= acceptable >> >>for me to cut the toes off my Japanese neighbor because he cannot tell= me >> >>in a language that I understand that it is painful to him, aside from >> >>struggling, fighting and making a horrid noise. I imagine a mouse does >> >>these things as well. Taking it further, it would even be acceptable= for >> >>me to cut -your- toes off, since I do not know how pain feels to you. It's >> >>possible that you enjoy it emmensely but have been conditioned by your >> >>psychiatrist (in an attept to cure you of your twisted masochistic >> >>tendancies) to react as if it is unpleasant in the extreme. >> > >> >Please! Let us stay serious...Again, the degree of conceptualization of= a >> >human being when pain is inflicted unto him is millions of years away in >> >term of evolution from what the mouse or shrew is able to do.=20 >> > >> >We have to keep those kind of arguments very close to earth if we ever want >> >to be able to convince the public that what we do is serious and by= doing >> >that, help the animals to get a better life. If we compare the mental >> >processes of mice and humans, we'll loose all credibility (and we= already >> >sound way too much romantic for most people). >> > >> >Alain Rivet >> >Universit=E9 Laval >> > >> > >>=20 >>=20 > > > From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 17-FEB-1998 08:17:07.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at" CC: Subj: Chopin ! -REPONSE >>> The Shrew Site 16/02/ 16h37 >>> I believe that it was / is very important to discuss this topic. Hitherto we have heard many opinions, .... pros and contras ... All of them: IMPORTANT! * - It would be necessary to hear *official* statements / guidelines about the use / legislation /acceptability of the method from different organizations / countries.>>>>> I quote: "The Canadian Council on Animal Care (CCAC) opposes the use of toe clipping as a method of identification for the short-term learning experience of field studies. Where it is necessary to provide permanent individual identification between litter members of new born rodents, toe clipping may be necessary. If, for any reason, this procedure has to be undertaken on other than neonatal animals, either a local or a general anesthetic should be administered." (CCAC 1993). Not very elegant english, but I guess they mean that it is justified only if it is necessary to identify individuals over a long period of time. As in the US, the CCAC requires that experimenters always consider alternatives to any painful procedure and to give some reasons why alternatives were not used. Jeff Rushen ======================================================================= Dr. Werner Haberl Hamburgerstr. 11, A-1050 Vienna, Austria Email: shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at URL: http://members.vienna.at/shrew (The Shrew (ist's) Site) ======================================================================= From: IN%"kah3@cornell.edu" "Katherine A. Houpt" 17-FEB-1998 09:51:51.90 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Her papers are published in Applied Animal Behavior Science 36:47 and 43:111 One need not read Swedish.At 06:00 AM 2/17/98 -0800, you wrote: >At 11:30 AM 2/16/98 +0000, you wrote: >>Dear list, >> >>Anybody have informations on regurgitation by the sire during weaning in >>dogs? The question is: breeders claim that is possible for male dogs of >>certain breeds to regurgitate for pups during weaning, the breed involved >>is the Saluki; Is it possible to find the same behaviour in other breeds? >>How can it be explained? >>Thank you in advance for the answer, >>Best Regards, >>Dr.Lucilla Gregoretti >> >>Kerstin Malm wrote a doctoral thesis at the Swedish University of >Agricultural Sciences , Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, in Skara, Sweden, >on regurgitation in dogs. I can't read the thesis, it is in Swedish, but in >the English summary it is reported that 65% of breeders observed >regurgitation at least once in their dogs. Genetic and environmental >variables appear to influence incidence of regurgitation. Regurgitation was >observed from mother, father, elder sister/brother, aunt/uncle, and >unrelated individuals. No further details are given in the summary, and my >Swedish doesn't even go far enough to guess the information given in the >tables. > >It does make sense that a pack supports the alpha female in raising her >puppies, because this increases inclusive fitness of the pack members. The >behavior would be particularly adaptive in the father of the pups, since he >propagates his genes that way and increases his fitness. > >Andrew Luescher From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 17-FEB-1998 10:30:02.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Regurgitation during weaning (male dogs) No, I have not personally observed this behavior. However, I have seen videos of wolves, the originators of dog behavior, doing exactly this behavior; both males and females. Reply to message from imiuvezo@imiucca.csi.unimi.it of Tue, 17 Feb > >At 15.43 16 / 02 / 98 -0500, you wrote: >> >> I cannot personally verivy this behavior, but it is >>relatively easy to explain: >> - Dogs (Canis lupus, familiaris) are direct descendents of >>wolves (Canis lupus). As such they inherit most of their genetically >>based behavior from this social species. Part of that social >>behavior is for all (male as well as female) members of the pack >>to feed the young of the pack. Thus when a young pup approaches >>any adult pack member and gives the,"Please regurgitate some food >>for me," signal (licking the adult's corner of the lip) the >>adult reflexly regurgitates. >> >Thank you very much for the information, have you ever seen this behaviour >in your practice? >Best REgards >Lucilla > >>P.S. I am not much of a speller, so please allow some slack when >>a word does not come out as the dictionary suggests. One of my >>favorite quotes is from Thomas Jefferson: "I have nothing but >>contempt for a man who can spell a word only one way!" >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Reply to message from imiuvezo@imiucca.csi.unimi.it of Mon, 16 Feb >>> >>>Dear list, >>> >>>Anybody have informations on regurgitation by the sire during weaning in >>>dogs? The question is: breeders claim that is possible for male dogs of >>>certain breeds to regurgitate for pups during weaning, the breed involved >>>is the Saluki; Is it possible to find the same behaviour in other breeds? >>>How can it be explained? >>>Thank you in advance for the answer, >>>Best Regards, >>>Dr.Lucilla Gregoretti >>> >> >>-- >> ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) >> < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 >> ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 >> .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"walker@cc.dixie.edu" "Curt Walker" 17-FEB-1998 10:42:33.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Kale wrote, As I understand it, the part of the brain that registers pain is a 'primitive' part which we humans share with dumb things like fishes and amphibians. Folds on the cortex (? outer part of the brain) don't have anything to do with it. You do not understand it correctly. Humans have an enormous surface area on each cerebral cortex devoted solely to the sense of touch on the fingers. Mice have a very tiny corresponding area. It is true that the "pain centers" are limbic, but exactly what that means is not clearly known; one thing that seems certain to me is that the millions of human limbic neurons could give a much stronger "impression" of a painful stimulus than the few in a mouse limbic system. Has anyone tried nitrogen-branding as a means of marking small rodents? Supposedly this is painless because the nerve endings are frozen before they can register the sensation. It is permanent and would leave marks that would probably be easier to read than clipped toes, and would not hinder the animal in digging or climbing as clipped toes might. Expense might be a problem? I've done this to hundreds of infant mice, I believe they all lived, but all squirmed and squeaked at the time, did not seem to enjoy it, ended up with large red welts for a while at the spot of branding. The point is, how can we compare the distress caused by this to that of an adult mouse getting freeze-branded or toe-clipped? The only thing that seems clear is that the infant has a more poorly-developed CNS, thus may feel less pain. And those who feel that wiping out a whole species is much worse than causing pain to a few individuals have my vote: most animal rights arguments seem misplaced, and efforts could be much more meaningful if directed toward saving species, not individual cute fuzzy mammals. Curt Walker, PhD Dixie College St. George, UT From: IN%"lynfra@globalnet.co.uk" "Lynn Crook" 17-FEB-1998 13:33:19.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Clickers/Dolphins/Electric shocks??? Hi, My name is Hannah, I am Lynn's daughter. I am studying Psychology as an 'A' level subject, and if anyone can please help me, I have a few queries. Firstly, I would like to go on to study Ethology at degree level, I live in England so if anyone has any info on courses, could they please tell me about it. (My lecturers seem to only be able to see as far as the closest University!!) Secondly, at the moment my psychology group are being taught by a student lecturer, and he doesn't seem very clear on things. We were talking today about Behaviourism and esspecially Operant Conditioning. He told us that dolphins were trained by rewards of fish when they did something right. When I mentioned Clickers or similar he seemed unwilling to explain and said that yes, clickers were also used, but that was all he said. He then went on to say that electric shocks were used to get the more timid dolphins to perform. I would be very interested if someone could tell me more about this as I have heard that dolphins cannot be persuaded in this way. I would be very grateful if someone could shed some light on this subject as it is of great interest to me. I enjoy working with animals and would find and info on this subject useful. Thanks. Hannah. From: IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu" "Kale H. McE. Kevan" 17-FEB-1998 15:05:30.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Long answer On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Alain Rivet wrote: > Ok, before I'm tagged as the facsist-who-likes-to-torture-animals on this > list, I would like to clarify my thoughts. :) I'd never say such a thing; that would be 'argument against the person' and very bad form. I don't imagine Alain Rivet or anyone else on this list is keen on torturing animals. Besides, I don't really think toe-cutting is all that horrible anyway. Keeping rats and mice in cages and breeding them to be hairless strikes me as a greater evil than chopping off a toe or two but leaving them otherwise relatively unmolested. > I think there is a difference between a reflex and pain and its > anticipation. Awareness is the issue here. Once again, we are circling around the question of what constitutes 'real' pain. Nobody's made any clear statement about what sort of awareness is required to make distinguish 'reflex' and 'pain.' > What I know is that you can't compare the > anguish caused by traumatic experiences in animals (especially the ones > with brains much less developped than ours) vs humans. My view is that you -can- make that comparison, and you'd better make it. Your own experience of pain is the only mirror you have to hold animal pain up to. The image you get will certainly be distorted, but it's likely better and more accurate than nothing at all. > And I know I would > just laugh if someone came and said: 'Hey, bacteria feel pain. THey tried > to avoid an area where salinity was too high for their survival. We should > stop the experiment, they have a notion of life and death'. Yike! A notion of life and death is important here? Is that what you mean by 'awareness?' > 'My heart fears suffering' said the young man to the alchemist, a night > they were staring at the moonless sky. > > 'Tell your heart that fear is worse than pain itself...' > > Coelho, The alchemist > (sorry, it fitted too well...) Pretty, but I don't think it's true. Well, the second line is. Extended fear is worse than pain. But suffering is not reducable to pain. We can suffer without experiencing physical pain. And pain, unaccompanied by suffering, is actually rather worthwhile. Not 'pleasant,' but satisfying in a way. By suffering I mean frustration (the sort that extended fear can cause, or the sort that results from simply not being able to do what ones nature dictates one wants to do) - hence my earlier statement about caged rats and mice. If they are unable to build nests, mate, run about, whatever, then they suffer without physical pain. I am absoultely sure that the toe-clipped rodent feels pain, but I don't think it suffers much. A human being would feel violated at having a toe cut off, and that anguish qualifies as suffering. I don't think rodents have the same sort of idea of their body as property that humans have, or that they can feel that their rights have been violated. (I should now jump all over myself because I have no way of -knowing- that they don't.) > It's not exactly the rememberance that is important but the degree of > conceptualization of what is happening to them that is. Let me give you an > example... > > The Bembex is a small wasp that takes extremly good care of its larvae... I don't think this story necessarily means what you say it means. I don't believe that wasps feel love, but your evidence does not prove that they do not. It is entirely possible that the Bembex -does- feel 'love' for its young. It's just not capable of recognising them without the door. Consider: About four months ago my cat left home and did not return. I loved the animal and searched for it dilligently. However, since the cat is entirely black and lacking in distinguishing marks I am unable to determine at a distance which or if any of the black cats I have seen in the area are mine. As time went by the problem becomes worse, since I imagine the cat has lost considerable weight if it has not died. I must catch all black cats that I see, and look for the five white hairs on its left shoulder that would positively identify it as my cat. If some meddling scientists came and removed those five white hairs there is a good chance I would decide that the cat I had just caught was not my cat but another which resembled it, and I would release the animal. The scientists might conclude that I do not love my cat, but they would be wrong. > But what I hope is that when an ethologist asserts something > like 'Don't use that kind of pens, they put your animals in distress', > he'll be listened because he has scientific proof of what he is asserting > and not looked at with stares that say: Yeah right! that's the guy who > thinks bacteria feel pain.' What I hope is that when a gang of angry animal-rights activists come on an ethologist and question the ethics of her research methods she will be able to respond in a way that makes them say, 'She's thought about this, she is trying her best to do what's right,' rather than, 'Yeah, right! that's the heartless animal-torturing fiend who believes that fuzzy bunnies don't feel pain even though they scream.' > The same here. I hope it didn't sound otherwise. I do get carried away > sometimes... ;-) No worries. This is fun for me. K. From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 17-FEB-1998 16:58:52.45 To: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Pain room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour (Marthe Kiley-Worthington) wrote: > Pain, may be voluntarily entered into as it were if the trade offs are good in one way > or another. An odd thought has occurred to me. As most of you know, studies have been performed to investigate various elements of the captive environment which a research animal will work to obtain or avoid, thus obtaining a rough measure of their "desirableness" or "undesirableness" to that animal. Perhaps someone could design such a study in order to examine how "undesirable" toe clipping really is. Perhaps far-fetched, but it's a thought. -- Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- -- phone (423) 974-5839 -- FAX (423) 974-5640 -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Reality is whatever refuses to go away when I stop believing in it. -- Philip K. Dick From: IN%"fmartin@vetmed.wsu.edu" "Francois Martin" 17-FEB-1998 18:38:02.02 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Training program in Animal Assisted Therapy Besides Delta Society in Washington State (USA) and = Zooth=E9rapieQu=E9bec in Qu=E9bec (Canada) does someone know a place (university, college, = private organization) where one can take a course in Animal Assisted Therapy? Thank you Francois Martin, Ph.D. Assistant-Director People-Pet Partnership College of Veterinary Medicine Washington State University PO Box 647010 Pullman WA 99164-7010 Phone 509 335-4569 Fax 509 335-6094 @mail fmartin@vetmed.wsu.edu From: IN%"Toby.Knowles@bristol.ac.uk" "Toby Knowles" 18-FEB-1998 02:52:28.96 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Tail Docking Lambs On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:47:34 +0000 (GMT) JC Scotton, D100 wrote: > From: JC Scotton, D100 > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:47:34 +0000 (GMT) > Subject: > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Dear All, > I am a veterinary student at Bristol university, and am > currently reseaching ethics and welfare issues concerned with the > castration of lambs. If anyone could be of any help with information, > views etc. concerning this issue, please e-mail me as soon as possible > at the address below. > Thankyou for your time, John Scotton. Nigel French and Kenton Morgan, once of Bristol and now at Liverpool have published some work fairly recently in this area. I've included the some references and the abstract from the most relevant publication. Toby. LAMB TAIL DOCKING - A CONTROLLED FIELD-STUDY OF THE EFFECTS OF TAIL AMPUTATION ON HEALTH AND PRODUCTIVITY FRENCH NP, WALL R, MORGAN KL VETERINARY RECORD, 1994, Vol.134, No.18, pp.463-467 A detailed study of the effects of tail docking on lamb health and productivity was prompted by current concern about the welfare aspects of lamb tail amputation. Using a controlled field trial, comparing over 3000 docked and undocked lambs on seven farms, the effects of tail docking on mortality, blowfly strike and production variables were examined. The incidence of blowfly strike was stronglyand consistently higher in undocked than docked lambs (rate ratio 6.03, 95 per cent confidence interval (CI) 2.99 to 12.19 for male lambs and 4.25, 95 per cent CI 2.25 to 8.01 for female lambs). The incidence of faecal soiling of the breech was slightly higher in undocked lambs and was identified as an important independent risk factor for blowfly strike. Both the mortality and production parameters were similar for docked and undocked lambs. It was concluded that tail docking protected against blowfly strike, with little evidence of any detrimental effect on lamb mortality and production. A CASE-CONTROL STUDY OF BLOWFLY STRIKE IN LAMBS AU: FRENCH NP, PARKIN TD, MORGAN KL VETERINARY RECORD, 1996, Vol.139, No.16, pp.384-388 ROLE OF NEONATAL AND MATERNAL RISK-FACTORS IN THE FECAL SOILING OF LAMBS FRENCH NP, MORGAN KL VETERINARY RECORD, 1996, Vol.139, No.19, pp.460-465 ---------------------- Dr Toby Knowles School of Veterinary Science University of Bristol Langford, Bristol BS18 7DY UK Tel: (44) 0117 928 9214 Fax: (44) 0117 928 9324 Toby.Knowles@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk" 18-FEB-1998 05:30:14.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Castration in lambs Dear JC Scotton, Toby Knowles and other Could anybody with information about castration in lambs - how widespread, welfare and production implications etc. please post it to applied ethology network as I would also be interested to hear current thinking/research. Dale Dale Arey GIBiol PhD SAC Animal Biology Division Ferguson Building Craibstone Aberdeen AB21 9YA UK Tel: 01224 711058 From: IN%"Lise.Dybkjaer@SH.DK" "Lise Dybkjaer" 18-FEB-1998 05:34:26.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Group housing of lactating sows Dear collegues. I have just returned from a 6 month maternity leave and faced the fact that I have an approaching deadline on a report on multi-suckling (ms) systems for sows. In order to get some updated informations I would like very much to get in touch with those of you working with such systems: how common are ms systems in your country ? will they be more common in the future ? what are the recent experiences with the systems ? what are the main problems ? do you (or somebody you know of) do research in ms systems or any aspect related to ms systems ? are there any new publications from 1996 until today that I should know of ? Thanking you in advance Lise Dybkjaer Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Research Centre Bygholm P.O. Box 536 DK-8700 Horsens Denmark Phone: +45 75 60 22 11 Fax: +45 75 62 48 80 E-mail: LD5@sh.dk From: IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk" 18-FEB-1998 05:57:31.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Group housing of lactating sows Dear Lise Multi-suckling systems are vey uncommon in the UK, some farmers have expressed an interest and some have set them up on a trial basis. There are I believe two or three producers down in England who are running the system commercially. As far as research is concerned, we have recently completed a programme which does'nt look set to continue for the present - see: Arey and Sancha 1996 AABS 50:135-145 Arey 1997 EAAP Abstracts pp.153 Wattanakul et al 1997 Anim Sci 64:339-349 Wattanakul et al 1997 AABS 55:21-35 Best wishes Dale > Dear collegues. > > I have just returned from a 6 month maternity leave and faced the fact > that I have an approaching deadline on a report on multi-suckling (ms) > systems for sows. > > In order to get some updated informations I would like very much to get > in touch with those of you working with such systems: how common are ms > systems in your country ? will they be more common in the future ? what > are the recent experiences with the systems ? what are the main problems > ? do you (or somebody you know of) do research in ms systems or any > aspect related to ms systems ? are there any new publications from 1996 > until today that I should know of ? > > Thanking you in advance > > Lise Dybkjaer > Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences > Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare > Research Centre Bygholm > P.O. Box 536 > DK-8700 Horsens > Denmark > > Phone: +45 75 60 22 11 > Fax: +45 75 62 48 80 > E-mail: LD5@sh.dk Dale Arey GIBiol PhD SAC Animal Biology Division Ferguson Building Craibstone Aberdeen AB21 9YA UK Tel: 01224 711058 From: IN%"skolb@treko.net.au" "Steve Kolb" 18-FEB-1998 06:53:22.59 To: IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk" "'d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: Castration in lambs Ok..... well here in Australia millions of lambs (I mean millions) are both castrated and mulesed every year. Lambs seem to be less affected by mulesing, but there is no doubt that castration with rubber rings leaves them in some pain. The alternative, ie. flystrike, is a pretty gruesome option. The farmers argue that human babies are circumcised with no anesthetic soooo... It seems the lambs take about a couple of days to recover from the ordeal. Some farms here run 15000 sheep, so it would be hard to manage these if they were not mulesed for flystrike control. The old fashion method of castration was a bottle of whiskey and good teeth.. its pretty gruesome to watch... I tell you.... Steve Kolb On 18 February, 1998 7:30 PM, Dale Arey [SMTP:d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk] wrote: > Dear JC Scotton, Toby Knowles and other > > Could anybody with information about castration in lambs - how > widespread, welfare and production implications etc. please post it > to applied ethology network as I would also be interested to hear > current thinking/research. > > Dale > > > Dale Arey GIBiol PhD > SAC Animal Biology Division > Ferguson Building > Craibstone > Aberdeen AB21 9YA > UK > Tel: 01224 711058 > From: IN%"haleyd@EM.AGR.CA" "DEREK HALEY" 18-FEB-1998 10:24:12.22 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: A question about image analysis software. Dear All, I would like to hear from people who have used image analysis software (e.g. Mocha, SigmaScan Pro, Optimas) in the study of animal behaviour. We are investigating such software for possible use in our lab and would appreciate comments on the various uses of an image analysis package for ethological research. If you can help, please send a message to . Derek Haley From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 18-FEB-1998 10:27:22.49 To: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Pain -REPONSE >>> Ione Smith 18/02/ 07h04 >>> An odd thought has occurred to me. As most of you know, studies have been performed to investigate various elements of the captive environment which a research animal will work to obtain or avoid, thus obtaining a rough measure of their "desirableness" or "undesirableness" to that animal. Perhaps someone could design such a study in order to examine how "undesirable" toe clipping really is. Perhaps far-fetched, but it's a thought.>>> It could be done. Train a rat to press a lever to obtain food. After it has learned this you cut off one of its toes everytime it presses the lever (or a variant of this). If toe cutting is aversive it should learn to stop responding before you have cut off the tenth toe. You could see whether the short term pain of having a toe cut off is more aversive say than having a electronic implant implanted. You could also compare different methods of toe cutting e.g. using a pair of scissors or a scalpel etc. Good luck with the animal care committee. This wouldn't address the issue of whether there is any chronic pain or whether this chronic pain is worse for the animal's overall welfare than being banded and getting trapped by the band (which is probably the more serious issue). You would need to be able to sure that the information obtained is sufficiently important to justify the toe clipping. Jeff Rushen -- Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- -- phone (423) 974-5839 -- FAX (423) 974-5640 -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Reality is whatever refuses to go away when I stop believing in it. -- Philip K. Dick From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 18-FEB-1998 13:58:40.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Clickers/Dolphins/Electric shocks??? I seriously doubt that anyone is training cetaceans with punishment; certainly not shy individuals to make them perform. Such input would have just the opposite effect. But do not take my word for it. Go to a major expert in the field: Ted Turner, Curator of Training for Sea World, Ohio. His e-mail address is: xyxz82a@prodigy.com Reply to message from lynfra@globalnet.co.uk of Tue, 17 Feb > >Hi, >My name is Hannah, I am Lynn's daughter. I am studying Psychology as an 'A' >level subject, and if anyone can please help me, I have a few queries. >Firstly, I would like to go on to study Ethology at degree level, I live in >England so if anyone has any info on courses, could they please tell me >about it. (My lecturers seem to only be able to see as far as the closest >University!!) > >Secondly, at the moment my psychology group are being taught by a student >lecturer, and he doesn't seem very clear on things. We were talking today >about Behaviourism and esspecially Operant Conditioning. He told us that >dolphins were trained by rewards of fish when they did something right. When >I mentioned Clickers or similar he seemed unwilling to explain and said that >yes, clickers were also used, but that was all he said. He then went on to >say that electric shocks were used to get the more timid dolphins to >perform. I would be very interested if someone could tell me more about this >as I have heard that dolphins cannot be persuaded in this way. > >I would be very grateful if someone could shed some light on this subject as >it is of great interest to me. I enjoy working with animals and would find >and info on this subject useful. Thanks. > >Hannah. > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 18-FEB-1998 17:38:03.50 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Pain -REPONSE Jeff Rushen wrote: > > It could be done. Train a rat to press a lever to obtain food. After it has > learned this you cut off one of its toes everytime it presses the lever (or > a variant of this). If toe cutting is aversive it should learn to stop > responding before you have cut off the tenth toe. You could see > whether the short term pain of having a toe cut off is more aversive say > than having a electronic implant implanted. You could also compare > different methods of toe cutting e.g. using a pair of scissors or a scalpel > etc. Good luck with the animal care committee. And actually, you wouldn't even have to clip the toe. Find out how hard an animal will work to avoid a tight toe pinch (or how large a reward would be necessary for the animal to *allow* the tight toe pinch), and surely you could extrapolate. Obviously an actual clip would be *more* adversive...but if the mere pinch is seriously adversive that would still be a good argument for discontinuing clips. I think you could get that by an IACUC, especially if you emphasized all the animals currently having their toes cut off. -- Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- -- phone (423) 974-5839 -- FAX (423) 974-5640 -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Reality is whatever refuses to go away when I stop believing in it. -- Philip K. Dick From: IN%"HUTSONG@hari.agvic.gov.au" "Geoffrey Hutson" 19-FEB-1998 00:18:23.52 To: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM. Sherwin", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The rabbit and the pig On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:45:14 +0000 (GMT) Chris Sherwin wrote: > > The article Moira Harris was seeking information on (i.e. the use of > rabbits to calm gilts/sows) can be found in Pig International, November > 1997, vol 27, No. 11, page 22. > Readers may be interested to know that rabbits and pigs have been cohabiting for some 10 years now. The original article was in Misset International Pigs, volume 4(1) January/February 1988, page 5. Geoffrey Hutson From: IN%"Nabil.Brandl@SH.DK" "Nabil Brandl" 19-FEB-1998 01:18:22.32 To: IN%"haleyd@EM.AGR.CA" "'DEREK HALEY'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: SV: A question about image analysis software. Dear Derek I used the package Image Pro Demo version. This package is very useful and easy to opereate. You don'nt have to be a computer expert to operate it. This package can compute distance between animal, measuring the body dimension of animal; manually or automatic. I designed a semiller program as Image pro. You can download it from my web-site. Just take a look to: http://www.sh.dk/~nabil under item pc program for motion and manual program. This program had been used in Research Center Foulum to determine the distance travel for pigs and worked as planned. The results were published at International Livestock Symposium, Minnesota (1997). I think the package, which you mentioned is the same as Image Pro. Good luck with applied image analysis Nabil Brandl The Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Research Center Foulum P.O. Box 50 8830 Tjele, Denmark HomePage: http://www.sh.dk/~nabil e-mail: Nabil.Brandl@sh.dk >-----Oprindelig meddelelse----- >Fra: DEREK HALEY [SMTP:haleyd@EM.AGR.CA] >Sendt: 18. februar 1998 13:05 >Til: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Emne: A question about image analysis software. > >Dear All, > >I would like to hear from people who have used image analysis software >(e.g. Mocha, SigmaScan Pro, Optimas) in the study of animal behaviour. >We are investigating such software for possible use in our lab and would >appreciate comments on the various uses of an image analysis package >for ethological research. > >If you can help, please send a message to . > > >Derek Haley From: IN%"kasia@bison.zbs.bialowieza.pl" "Katarzyna Daleszczyk" 19-FEB-1998 01:25:38.78 To: IN%"Toby.Knowles@bristol.ac.uk" "Toby Knowles" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Tail Docking Lambs On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Toby Knowles wrote: > On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:47:34 +0000 (GMT) JC Scotton, D100 > wrote: > > Dear All, > > I am a veterinary student at Bristol university, and am > > currently reseaching ethics and welfare issues concerned > with the > castration of lambs. If anyone could be of any > help with information, > views etc. concerning this issue, > please e-mail me as soon as possible > at the address > below. > Thankyou for your time, > John Scotton. > > Nigel French and Kenton Morgan, once of Bristol and now at > Liverpool have published some work fairly recently in this > area. I've included the some references and the abstract > from the most relevant publication. > > Toby. > > > LAMB TAIL DOCKING - A CONTROLLED FIELD-STUDY OF THE EFFECTS > OF TAIL AMPUTATION ON HEALTH AND PRODUCTIVITY FRENCH NP, Hello, I am little confused with the terminology used - castration means cutting off genitals, not tails! So castration and docking isn't the same thing at all! Katarzyna ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Katarzyna Daleszczyk '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' Mammal Research Institute phone: (48) 835 12278 Polish Academy of Sciences fax: (48) 835 12289 17-230 Bialowieza, Poland e-mail: kasia@bison.zbs.bialowieza.pl ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' From: IN%"Per.Jensen@hmh.slu.se" "Per Jensen" 19-FEB-1998 02:28:06.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Regurgitation in dogs For those interested in regurgitation as a weaning behaviour in dogs (males and females), here are some references from our group: Malm, K., 1995. Regurgitation in relation to weaning in the domestic dog: A questionnaire study. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 43: 111-122. Malm, K. and Jensen, P., 1992. Regurgitation as a weaning strategy- a selective review on an old subject in a new light. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 36: 47-64. Malm, K. and Jensen, P., 1996. Weaning in dogs: Within- and between-litter variation in milk and solid food intake. Appl Anim Behav Sci, 49: 223-235. Best wishes, Per Jensen *********************************************************** PER JENSEN, Professor of Ethology Swedish University of Agricultural Scinces Department of Animal Environment and Health Section of Ethology POB 234, SE-532 23 SKARA, Sweden Tel +46 511 67219 Fax +46 511 67204 E-mail Per.Jensen@hmh.slu.se *********************************************************** From: IN%"Per.Jensen@hmh.slu.se" "Per Jensen" 19-FEB-1998 05:09:03.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Jungle fowl Hello, We are interested in obtaining jungle fowl for a research program on domestication effects on behaviour. I would be most happy for any information about possible sources of reliable animals. It is important that we get the right subspecies, which seems to be Gallus gallus gallus. I would therefore also greatly appreciate any advice about characters that can be used to distinguish the different subspecies of fowl. Best wishes, Per Jensen *********************************************************** PER JENSEN, Professor of Ethology Swedish University of Agricultural Scinces Department of Animal Environment and Health Section of Ethology POB 234, SE-532 23 SKARA, Sweden Tel +46 511 67219 Fax +46 511 67204 E-mail Per.Jensen@hmh.slu.se *********************************************************** From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 19-FEB-1998 08:14:10.84 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" CC: Subj: Academic Credit: "Healing the Moral Animal" 7/20-24/98 2/17/98 Re: Academic Credit for Healing the Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution Graduate students and medical residents can have tremendous energy and determination; they can be the most commited to ideas and to making some kind of mark, to search unusual literatures and resources that support their own obsessions about biology and life. Thomas Kuhn observed that "paradigm shifts" in the sciences often come from younger workers or from= people relatively new to the particular discipline. Dawkins and others would describe such an audience as an unequaled opportunity for symbiosis= and reproduction. All of us look for those minds, the future Wallers, Walkers, and Blooms, the next Dawkins, Sagan, Williams, Buss, Cosmides, o= r Huxley. We encourage faculty to identify such students at the graduate, residency= , and postdoctoral levels and encourage participation in HTMA this summer. = = Given the nature of the class and its instructors, YOU MAY WANT TO ENCOURAGE THEIR SEEKING FORMAL ACADEMIC CREDIT FROM YOUR INSTITUTION. = They will likely need your help in this process. A summary of the course content follows. Please make the introductions= =2E Thank you ... James Brody, Ph.D. ---------------------------- Course details: "HEALING THE MORAL ANIMAL: LESSONS FROM EVOLUTION" Part of the 19th Cape Cod Institute, Sponsored by Albert Einstein Medica= l College, Bronx, NY Speakers: Robert Wright John Pearce, M.D. Russ Gardner, Jr., M.D. James Brody, Ph. D. When: July 20-24, 1998 (M-F), = Where: Eastham, MA, USA (at the "elbow" on Cape Cod) Cost: $435 ($285 for medical residents and graduate students) CE Hours: 15 hours Time: 9 AM-12:15 PM with extended sessions until 1:30 PM on M & T. (Pearc= e & Wright. Others with Pearce, Gardner, and Brody to be announced 6/98 depending on audience.) CE credentials: Einstein Medical College (EMC) is accredited by the Accreditation Council for Continuing Medical Education to sponsor continuing medical education for physicians. A maximum of 15 hrs of Category 1 credit for the AMA Physician's Recognition Award. EMC is authorized to offer CE credit to nurses. This program offers 18 contact hrs. Einstein Medical College is approved by Amer. Psychological. Assn. to off= er CE to psychologists. Application has been made to Calif. Psych. Assn. to offer 15 hrs credit in accordance with mandatory (MCEP) requirements. The APA sponsor maintains program responsibility. Application has been made for 15 Category I NASW CEUs EMC is recognized by the Nat'l Board for Certified Counselors to offer CE= credit for National Certified Counselors. We adhere to NBCC Guidelines Application has been made to the Massachusetts Assn. for Marriage & Famil= y Therapy, Inc. Continuing Education Program to offer 15 contact hrs. -------------------- MONDAY (Pearce with Brody/Gardner) = Evolutionary theory and our mental health care (Brody), Natural selection= and human capacities, Our presumed original environments, Physical and psychological adaptations for survival, Mismatch of our evolved traits wi= th themselves and with our culture, Evolutionary theory & treatment. TUESDAY (Wright) Moral impulses as biological adaptations, Deception and self-deception, Biology and social status, The Darwinian Analysis of moral issues and public policy, Can what's natural be pathological? Inner city violence, Child abuse, Serotonin and aggression, Is knowing thy (Darwinian) self therapeutic? Biology and Buddhism. WEDNESDAY (Gardner) Mood Disorders, an Expression of Evolved Psychological Features. Anxiety= , Depression, Mania, OCD, Sociophysiology & evolution: Considerations f= or treatment THURSDAY (Brody with Gardner/Peace) Behavioral Genetics. Psychological Adaptations and Familial Action Patterns, Psychological Adaptations, the Behavioral Family History, Uses = of the Psychological Adaptations and Familial models. = FRIDAY (Brody with Gardner/Pearce) = Spouses and Lovers. Differences in male and female reproductive interest= s, Strategies for deceit and cooperation, Children and altruism/competition,= Interventions. --------------------------------- To register, please call, mail or fax! Fax # (718) 430-8782 Phone registration: (718) 430-2307. Or print and complete the form below. --------------------------------- Registration for: HEALING THE MORAL ANIMAL: Lessons from Evolution Name:___________________________Degree_________ Address:_________________________________ City:_____________State & Zip:______________ Fax:_____________Email:___________________ Home phone ( )__________________________ Bus. Phone:( )___________________________ Discipline: ______________________________ Previously Attended Cape Cod Seminar? _______ Special Instructional Needs?_________________ Visa/MC#:________________________________ Signature:________________________________ Exp. date:________________________________ Fax # (718) 430-8782 Check attached: _____________ Please make check payable to Montefiore-Cape Cod . = Mail to Cape Cod Institute * Albert Einstein College of Medicine 1308 Belfer Bldg. * Bronx * NY 10461 Web Page: http://www.cape.org/1998/ We can mail you a complete brochure and more information about our other programs at your request. ------------ Robert Wright is the author of "The Moral Animal: Evolutionary Psychology and Everyday Life," named by the "New York Times Book Review" = as one of the best 12 books of the year in 1994. His other publications= include articles for "The Atlantic Monthly," "The New Yorker," "Time," "T= he New Republic," and "Slate." His writings on science, technology, and philosophy for "The Sciences" magazine won the National Magazine Award fo= r Essay and Criticism. His first book, "Three Scientists and Their Gods,"= was a finalist for a National Book Critics Circle Award. He is a contributing editor of "The New Republic." John K. Pearce, M.D., practices psychiatry in Cambridge, MA, and several clinics on Cape Cod and is medical director of the Island Counseling Center on Martha's Vineyard. He is past secretary of the American Family Therapy Association, a charter member of the Human Behavi= or and Evolution Society, and a past president of the International Association for the Study of Comparative Psychopathology. He is coedito= r of "Family Therapy: Combining Psychodynamics and Family Systems Approaches," and "Ethnicity and Family Therapy" and is co-author of "Exil= es in Eden: Psychotherapy from an Evolutionary Perspective." Russell M. Gardner, M.D., is the Harry Davis Endowed Professor of= = Psychiatry at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. He belongs to a dozen professional societies, has more than 30 papers 50 presentations, 12 invited book chapters, and 90 essays on evolutionary psychiatry and sociophysiology. He is working on a book manuscript, = "Sociophysiology: Evolution, Behavior, and Psychiatry." He views "sociophysiology" as the foundation science for psychiatry and has been active in the Human Behavior and Evolution Society as well as the ASCAP Society (Across Species Comparisons and Psychopathology), stemmed from Th= e ASCAP Newsletter (a monthly publication in 10 volumes). He has written o= n mania, depression, paranoia, and evolution among other topics. James Brody, Ph. D., is in private practice and has two dozen papers and presentations. He developed "Clinical Sociobiology: Taking Charge of Our Genes" this past summer. He has posted 200+ essays on Evolutionary Psychology, part of Behavior OnLine, at www.behavior.net/mhn/bolforum/message/27 and is developing his 1st book. , 610-948-5344 From: IN%"s.vdweghe@ktbl.de" "sabine van den weghe" 19-FEB-1998 12:33:33.50 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re:group housing of sows Dear Lise, At the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, Dept. of Animal Hygiene, a number of studies has been carried out by Margret W=FClbers-Mindermann (1992): Characteristics of cross suckling piglets reared in a group housing system. Specialarbete 13. S. Braun (1995): Individual variation in behaviour and growth of piglets in a combined system of individual and loose housing in sows. Report 36. A new report is forthcoming by Margret W=FClbers-Mindermann. You will get more information directly from Margret who is still at the Department under: Margret.Wulbers-Mindermann@hmh.slu.se. There is a number of investigations out of which the most recent and comprehensive one is: Burgwal-Konertz B. van de (1996): Das Saug- und S=E4ugeverhalten bei der Gruppenhaltung abferkelnder und ferkelf=FChrender Sauen und ihren W=FCrfen unter besonderer Ber=FCcksichtigung des Fremdsaugens. Dissertation Universit=E4t Hohenheim, 1996, 285 p. Stuttgart : Verlag Grauer, 1996. - ISBN 3-86186-162-3 The study was carried out at ID-DLO in the Netherlands. And what about experiences: since there are quiete a number of different systems available, you will find as many different statements. KTBL in Germany has published a book in 1996 in german language, among others with very interesting descriptive chapters about different multisuckling systems : Title: Gruppenhaltung von Sauen - Cancen rechnergest=FCtzter Verfahren. KTBL Schrift 372, 30 DM. Furthermore in 1996 KTBL has invited entries for a so called model project with the title 'housing system for sows with exercise for the sows'. Farms were invited to participate and will be observed over a two years period through smal scale scientific studies. There were rather few farms which answered on the advertisement. A committee selected 5 farms out of 24. I may give a short report of what we know so far: 1. there are very few farms which apply multisuckling systems - I would guess no more than 50 in Germany. 2. I would not expect ms become more important or spread in the future, which is e.g. due to - a common weaning age between 3 to 4 weeks ( day 24 - 28) - no well working examples so far in Germany (perhaps because behavioural mechanisms are not very much considered) 3. recent experiences with the system of farrowing pens in half-circle-design (Van Putten 1991, Van de Burgwal 1993 etc.) - one of the model project farms - revealed that the first two weeks work without problems. When the 6 sows and piglets are grouped in a large open pen at 10 - 14 days p.p. it does not work as well anymore. Nursings are not sychronised and vary in number and duration between sows. Cross-suckling occurs to more than 50 % of piglets. The results of the model project will be available in 1999. My conclusion: Multisuckling systems work only with skillful stockmen who has both, knowledge and the aibility to observe sows and piglets in order to recognize problems and their causes. Different systems reveal different results and are often designed for certain conditions. For example - The Stolba Family pen system is working well on small scale farms but is no solution for farms of larger scale and limited labour sources. - A combination of individual farrowing and subsequent grouping to a multisuckling system - which is a quiete common version in Sweden - doesn't make sense if weaning age is less than 4 - 5 weeks. - The swedish Thorstensson System works well but requires large amounts of straw and labour . Don't you think it is better to install a comfortable farrowing pen with exercise for the sow and wean piglets with 4 weeks instead of having lots if troubles in a group housing pen for piglets and sows which is e.g. expressed by high incidences of cross suckling or by the sows lying on their bellies most of the time and prohibit piglets massaging or nibbling at the udder? - I am curious. Best wishes, Sabine Sabine Van den Weghe Kuratorium f=FCr Technik und Bauwesen in der Landwirtschaft KTBL Bartningstr. 46 D - 64289 Darmstadt Tel. 06151-7001-149 Fax. 06151-7001-123 email: s.vdweghe@ktbl.de From: IN%"kvlasman@uoguelph.ca" "Kara Vlasman" 19-FEB-1998 12:57:04.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Sin Nombre Virus (a hantavirus) --Boundary_(ID_NFlnXuI0Wz5wo2vpaQyuvA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Greetings all! I am looking for studies investigating various ecological aspects of deer mouse (P. maniculatus) populations (or other host species of a hantavirus) that are seropositive for a hantavirus. I have found many epidemiological studies of various host species with a particular hantavirus, however, I have not found any studies that look specifically at antibody prevalence between various habitat types, differences in home ranges, or studies that manipulate population densities to determine if the virus actually exhibits density-dependence or the like. The epidemiological studies I have come across often look at the age distribution of seropositive population via weights of individuals but are relatively void of investigations into other potentially important ecological factors. Have any experimental/manipulative field studies of the sort I am looking for been conducted? Any direction to sources that could help me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Kara Vlasman Department of Zoology kvlasman@uoguelph.ca --Boundary_(ID_NFlnXuI0Wz5wo2vpaQyuvA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Greetings all!

I am looking for studies investigating various ecological aspects of deer mouse (P. maniculatus) populations (or other host species of a hantavirus) that are seropositive for a hantavirus.  I have found many epidemiological studies of various host species with a particular hantavirus, however, I have not found any studies that look specifically at antibody prevalence between various habitat types, differences in home ranges, or studies that manipulate population densities to determine if the virus actually exhibits density-dependence or the like.  The epidemiological studies I have come across often look at the age distribution of seropositive population via weights of individuals but are relatively void of investigations into other potentially important ecological factors.  Have any experimental/manipulative field studies of the sort I am looking for been conducted?
Any direction to sources that could help me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Kara Vlasman
Department of Zoology
kvlasman@uoguelph.ca --Boundary_(ID_NFlnXuI0Wz5wo2vpaQyuvA)-- From: IN%"kvlasman@uoguelph.ca" "Kara Vlasman" 19-FEB-1998 13:09:09.29 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology lst serve" CC: Subj: Sin Nombre Virus (hantavirus) Greetings all! I am looking for studies investigating various ecological aspects of deer mouse (P. maniculatus) populations (or other host species of a hantavirus) that are seropositive for a hantavirus. I have found many epidemiological studies of various host species with a particular hantavirus, however, I have not found any studies that look specifically at antibody prevalence between various habitat types, differences in home ranges, or studies that manipulate population densities to determine if the virus actually exhibits density-dependence or the like. The epidemiological studies I have come across often look at the age distribution of seropositive population via weights of individuals but are relatively void of investigations into other potentially important ecological factors. Have any experimental/manipulative field studies of the sort I am looking for been conducted? Any direction to sources that could help me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Kara Vlasman Department of Zoology kvlasman@uoguelph.ca ps. I apologize if this message was sent twice From: IN%"bradycol@pilot.msu.edu" "Colleen Brady" 19-FEB-1998 15:07:50.08 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Mating choice Hello everyone, I am looking for information on mating choice in horses, and wondered if anyone had any leads. I have found lots of information in other species, but very little in horses. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you. Colleen Brady Phone (517) 353-7289 Department of Animal Science Fax (517) 432-0147 1238 Anthony Hall Michigan State University E. Lansing, MI 48824 From: IN%"lu.do@home.diva.nl" "Lucas Noldus " 19-FEB-1998 15:38:21.89 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A question about image analysis software > I would like to hear from people who have used image analysis > software (e.g. Mocha, SigmaScan Pro, Optimas) in the study of > animal behaviour. We are investigating such software for possible > use in our lab and would appreciate comments on the various uses of > an image analysis package for ethological research. Derek, Image analysis software packages roughly fall apart in two categories: - programs for the analysis of single (static) video images, such as those produced by a still video camera. The programs you mention fall in this category. Another popular program (which we use ourselves, but not for strictly ethological work) is Image-Pro Plus by Media Cybernetics. - programs for the analysis of continuous series of video images, i.e. dynamic image analysis. Those programs are typically used for video tracking: they extract a number of specific features from each digitized frame and store those data in a time series. This allows you to track movements, body postures, distances between animals, interactions, etc. An example of such a program is EthoVision. I hope this info is of some use. If you need more specific help or information about a particular program, you can perhaps tell us what application you have in mind, so that we can provide some more practical hints. Regards, Lucas Noldus ___________________ Dr. L.P.J.J. Noldus Managing Director Noldus Information Technology b.v. Costerweg 5 P.O. Box 268 6700 AG Wageningen The Netherlands Phone: +31-317-497677 Fax: +31-317-424496 E-mail: L.Noldus@noldus.nl Web: http://www.noldus.com Join Noldus Forum, the discussion list for users of Noldus products. To subscribe, send a message to listserver@noldus.nl with the contents: SUBSCRIBE NOLDUS-FORUM EXIT Sign up for Measuring Behavior '98, the 2nd International Conference on Methods and Techniques in Behavioral Research. See http://www.noldus.com/events/mb98/mb98.htm for details. From: IN%"ctb1@psu.edu" "C. Thomas Blair" 19-FEB-1998 16:01:34.39 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: AnthroZoology Institute To All: Is there anyone on the list who has attended, is currently attending, or plans to attend the Diploma in Companion Animal Counselling/MSc. Programme offered by the Anthrozoology Institute in Southhampton, U.K.? I just received an information packet from them which was very helpful in all the official info that I need, but I was hoping to get some inside info and maybe some general impressions of the programme. If the above situation applies to anyone, I'd really appreciate a response. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------- C. Thomas Blair, Jr. Executive Director's Office Computer & Information Systems The Pennsylvania State University Email: ctb1@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/ctb1 ------------------------------------------------- "No tame animal has lost less of its native dignity or maintained more of its ancient reserve [than the cat]... " --William Conway ------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 19-FEB-1998 17:03:25.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology-error" CC: Subj: RE: Mating choice Dear Colleen: I would be interested in the responses that you get if they come in to you personally. Thanks. Ed Price UC Davis eoprice@ucdavis.edu ---------- >From: applied-ethology-error >To: Applied-ethology >Subject: Mating choice >Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 4:07PM > >Hello everyone, > >I am looking for information on mating choice in horses, and wondered if >anyone had any leads. I have found lots of information in other species, >but very little in horses. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you. > > >Colleen Brady Phone (517) 353-7289 >Department of Animal Science Fax (517) 432-0147 >1238 Anthony Hall >Michigan State University >E. Lansing, MI 48824 > From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 20-FEB-1998 04:15:00.45 To: IN%"bradycol@pilot.msu.edu" "Colleen Brady" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Mating choice Do you mean in free-living populations or breeding problems (e.g. stallions refusing to cover some mares)? Prof.Dr. Frank O. Odberg University of Ghent Dpt. of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke Belgium tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: 7849 On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Colleen Brady wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I am looking for information on mating choice in horses, and wondered if > anyone had any leads. I have found lots of information in other species, > but very little in horses. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you. > > > Colleen Brady Phone (517) 353-7289 > Department of Animal Science Fax (517) 432-0147 > 1238 Anthony Hall > Michigan State University > E. Lansing, MI 48824 > From: IN%"pdkaio@pobox.ruu.nl" "Pascalle van Loo" 20-FEB-1998 04:58:48.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: urine corticosterone in mice Dear all, I am a PhD student working on the improvement of housing for laboratory mice. In our experiments, we regularly collect urine from mice for corticosterone measurement, by putting the mice individually in small perspex boxes until they urinate (max. 50 minutes). We collect the urine with a siringe. This is usually no problem in female and subadult male mice as they form nice pools of urine. Adult male mice however have the habit to urinate while walking and smear the urine with their testes all over the place. It is very difficult to collect enough urine when this happens. As my main interested is home cage behaviour, I do not want to stress the animals too much so I am looking for another not too stressful way of collecting urine from the adult males. Is there anyone who has experience with this, or has a luminous idea that I did not think of before? E.g. is it possible to let the animals urinate on filter paper and use some kind of extraction method for measuring corticosterone? I hope someone can help me. Greetings from Pascalle van Loo ****************************************** * Department of Laboratory Animal Science* * PO Box 80.166 * * 3508 TD Utrecht * * The Netherlands * * * * tel: **31302532033 * * fax: **31302537997 * ****************************************** From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 20-FEB-1998 13:50:39.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Horse mating: historical note. The bucolic Latin for stallion groom is "origa". I have suggested elsewhere that the derivation from "auriga" or charioteer is not quite correct. "Auriga" also means "steersman" and I suspect that the ribald Roman rustics gave the groom his title by virtue of his manual interventions in the act of mating seeing some resemblance to wrestling with a steering oar. Columella in De Re Rustica describes horse mating and the use of a stallion of "inferior breeding" to tease the mare. A literature has been spawned from the dysfunctional intrusions of man and his money in the natural act of mating that raises my eye brows as it lowers the horses' ears! I too would be interested to hear of horse mating under free range conditions. Is the natural horse herd followed by a small tail of crippled stallions? Are mares savaged regularly when they have room to manoeuvre and the stallion has the leisure to interpret the semiology of the moment? A discussion about the collision of commercial interest and natural practice could enliven the welfare debate? Robin Walker From: IN%"Emily.Patterson-Kane@vuw.ac.nz" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 20-FEB-1998 17:21:50.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: mixed monkeys Hi Here is something I would appreciate some input on. I have an opportunity to study a zoo enclosure (moated island) containing both spider and capuchin monkeys. It had been hoped that they would not be 'territorial' with each other, but they are. I am designing a study to quantify the (currently very changable) territoriality, and to try and get some idea of how the two species relate to each other. I would be very grateful for any hints as to where to find the following sorts of information. 1)Known cases, or studies, of mixed species monkeys enclosures else-where. 2)Field info about normal ethograms for these species, and ideally something on how they might be expected to interact (even anecdotal would be a start). 3)Suggestions about ways to approach this project. 4)If any-one out there has experience observing monkeys they might let me know about their experiences. I had in mind beginning with simply sampling the populations positions throughout the day, and making detailed notes of any inter-species interaction. Then moving into detailed observations of individual's behaviour (once I am able to easily recognise individuals). All this will be rendered more fun by the fact that only part of the enclosure can be seen from any particular vantage point). As an aside, does any-one have an opinion about the cognitive abilities of Gibbons? Are they more 'stupid' (ouch, trying, probably unwisely, to avoid a debate about the meaning of 'intellegence') than chimps and gorilla's... or just less co-operative? Thanks for any input EG Patterson-Kane From: IN%"Lemonnier.Emmanuel@wanadoo.fr" 21-FEB-1998 17:18:40.87 To: IN%"Emily.Patterson-Kane@vuw.ac.nz" "Emily Patterson-Kane", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: mixed monkeys Hello Emilly, Here is my reply : >Hi > >Here is something I would appreciate some input on. > >I have an opportunity to study a zoo enclosure (moated island) containing >both spider and capuchin monkeys. It had been hoped that they would not be >'territorial' with each other, but they are. I am designing a study to >quantify the (currently very changable) territoriality, and to try and get >some idea of how the two species relate to each other. I would be very >grateful for any hints as to where to find the following sorts of information. > >1)Known cases, or studies, of mixed species monkeys enclosures else-where. They have been several case of mixed species exhibit with Primates, you should look in the International Zoo Yearbook for reference. >2)Field info about normal ethograms for these species, and ideally something >on how they might be expected to interact (even anecdotal would be a start). I know the case of a zoo that kept a group of Black spider monkey with capuchin for almost ten years with almost no problem. The capuchin were using the lower level of the island, they were not so much interaction. And suddenly after ten years a newly introduced spider monkeys started to play with the capuchin chasing them ! Then a fight occured between the Spider monkey and Capuchin and they had to be separated. I personnaly think that mixed species exhibit with Primate is feasible but t doesn't work with all species, it also depends on the previous history of the individual and very important the size and design of the exhibit (way to hide from each other). >3)Suggestions about ways to approach this project. Scan sampling can be a good method for a start but it depend also on the size of both group, it can be hard if you have many ibndividuals. >4)If any-one out there has experience observing monkeys they might let me >know about their experiences. > They are several papers on this subject in review such as Zoo Biology, International Zoo Yearbook, the Iternational Primate Society could probably provide you some reference and information as well. >I had in mind beginning with simply sampling the populations positions >throughout the day, and making detailed notes of any inter-species >interaction. Then moving into detailed observations of individual's >behaviour (once I am able to easily recognise individuals). All this will >be rendered more fun by the fact that only part of the enclosure can be seen >from any particular vantage point). > >As an aside, does any-one have an opinion about the cognitive abilities of >Gibbons? Are they more 'stupid' (ouch, trying, probably unwisely, to avoid >a debate about the meaning of 'intellegence') than chimps and gorilla's... >or just less co-operative? > I don't think gibbons are more stupid ! They are different ! It's a monogamous specie they haven't been studied as much as the other Apes probably because of their lifestyle living high in the trees, they are difficult to observe. There is a good book called the lesser Ape, that was published in the early 80's after a congress oabout Hylobatidae. May be you can get it form a natural history bookstore. >Thanks for any input > >EG Patterson-Kane > Good Luck Emmanuel Lemonnier Zoo Manager Domaine Animalier de Pescheray 72370 LE BREIL SUR MERIZE FRANCE Lemonnier.Emmanuel@wanadoo.fr From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 21-FEB-1998 23:32:11.22 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" CC: Subj: Talk about grandparents Hello all, I'm interested in the two following quotations from a listserve conversation a month ago ... "Declining fertility is essentially a reflection of how we see ourselves. People in traditional societies literally believe that they live on in their children and grandchildren. They are not being metaphorical or poetic when they talk this way about their families. = "In Western societies, we believe that life begins at birth and ends at death. From time to time we still experience feelings that tell = us this is not true, but these feelings receive no support from the ambient ideological and cultural environment. If anything we disparage them as relics of a bygone age." (Frost, 1998) "OK, except that the traditional belief is alive and well among many grandparents in modern societies." (Caton, 1998) Personal anecdotes or references are very very welcome. = Jim Brody From: IN%"jbk5@sh.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F8rgen_Kjaer?=" 23-FEB-1998 05:14:22.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Emu behaviour in captivity - references wanted Hello everyone, We are planning to study the effect of group size (no. of breeding pairs) and stocking density on behaviour and reproduction of breeding emus (Dromaius novaehollandiae) kept in commercial emu-farms. The 'normal' managemental procedure of keeping breeding stock in single pairs seems to shift to keeping larger groups, presumably to keep costs down. But what are the effects of this on behaviour and welfare of the emus?=20 Litterature on emus in captivity seems very sparse. Do you have references, experience etc. I will be very happy to hear from you. Thanks in advance. J=F8rgen Kj=E6r Joergen Kjaer Research Scientist Danish Institue of Agricultural Sciences Research Centre Foulum P.O.Box 50 DK-8830 Tjele Denmark Phone +45 89991324 Fax +45 89991500 e-mail j.kjaer@sh.dk http://www.foulum.min.dk From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 23-FEB-1998 05:55:25.66 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Talk about grandparents Dear Jim et al. > "Declining fertility is essentially a reflection of how we see > ourselves. People in traditional societies literally believe that they > live on in their children and grandchildren. They are not being > metaphorical or poetic when they talk this way about their families. > "In Western societies, we believe that life begins at birth and > ends at death. From time to time we still experience feelings that tell us > this is not true, but these feelings receive no support from the ambient > ideological and cultural environment. If anything we disparage them as > relics of a bygone age." (Frost, 1998) > "OK, except that the traditional belief is alive and well among > many grandparents in modern societies." (Caton, 1998) There was an article along similar lines in the Guardian newspaper some time ago. This - and other cumulative factors - prompted me to write an article for the popular magazine Philosophy Now (1997, issue 18, 19-21) called Darwin was my Grandmother. The most relevant section follows. If you would like to see the whole article (which also explains my choice of title) get back to me. Mike A recent article in the Guardian described how 'the trend for women to have children later in life, or not at all, is leaving a lot of would-be grandparents feeling cheated'. The title was typical of the Guardian: 'Delusions of Grandma'. Weak pun aside, the title reflected the main theme that the desire to be a grandparent is largely arbitrary, even contradictory: parents encourage a daughter to have a career but then want her to interrupt or terminate that career to have children. The only explanations offered in the article were from a psychiatrist who suggested that desire to be a grandparent is linked to fear of death or the need for a sense of identity. What was remarkable was that there was no reference to a basic product of natural selection: the instinct for behaviour associated with procreation. Natural selection has produced an urge for reproductive behaviour in all animals, because any animals which did not have it would have left no descendants - and in many species that behaviour includes the interest in youngsters which is integral to parental care. It seems reasonable that in humans, with more understanding than other animals of the world in which we live, this interest should for most individuals extend to a concern that our children have offspring in turn. The only hint of this in the article was in the discussion of fear of death: 'Grandchildren enable you to believe that after you are dead there is something that goes on that bears your memory.' However, the relationship of this idea to genetic descent was apparently not recognised by either the psychiatrist or the author of the article, because the passage continued: 'There is a sense of defeating time because you are recapturing earlier phases of your life ... through identifying with your grandchildren.' The idea that desire to be a grandparent has been produced by natural selection is arguable. To prove it we would have to show that there has been genetic variation in this trait and that those having the desire left more descendants than those without. Some sociologists and anthropologists are very sceptical of such proposals from the developing field of evolutionary psychology, considering them speculative and unprovable. However, this still seems an angle which cries out to be discussed. From an evolutionary perspective other explanations such as sense of identity must be secondary to the production of descendants, which is certainly not arbitrary. From: IN%"olsen@virgil.ruc.dk" "Lars M. Olsen" 23-FEB-1998 08:45:00.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology-L" CC: Subj: Feral pigeon control in urban environments Dear all, A friend in South Africa involved with pigeon control is working to find a more humane solution to pigeon-related damage than poisoning and shooting. If any of you reading this, are working on this aswell, Mandy et. al. = would be glad to hear from you. sincerely Lars M. Olsen -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Mandy Crerar Til: olsen@virgil.ruc.dk Dato: 22. februar 1998 21:08 Emne: HELP NEEDED WITH HUMAN SOLUTION TO FERAL PIGEON PROBLEM >We need to make contact with someone who has developed a humane way of >controlling feral pigeons on buildings in cities. They are a = tremendous >problem in all major cities of the world, including Durban, and I am = sure >that someone, somewhere, must have developed a humane way of preventing >them from despoiling and destroying buildings. >Currently, the pigeons are shot or poisoned. Also there is a sticky >substance that certain companies use that prevents the birds from = landing >on ledges etc.but this method has limitations and is expensive. >If you can put us in touch with anyone who may have a humane solution = to >this problem, we would be most grateful. The pigeons would also be = more >than grateful! >Sincerely >MANDY From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" "G. F. Barbato" 23-FEB-1998 09:28:12.15 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"olsen@virgil.ruc.dk" "Lars M. Olsen" CC: Subj: RE: Feral pigeon control in urban environments i believe that in Roanoke VA they've been using Red Hawks (nesting in the tall buildings) with some success... though perhaps if someone is from VaTech, they can comment more completely... btw -- i'm not entirely convinced that it is more humane to use predators than to 'shoot' them ourselves?? at least in the latter case we're willing to make a decistion and take responsibility for our actions, while in the former we can blame nature (or nurture....) : ) gfb > -----Original Message----- > From: Lars M. Olsen [mailto:olsen@virgil.ruc.dk] > Sent: Monday, February 23, 1998 9:44 AM > To: Applied Ethology-L > Subject: Feral pigeon control in urban environments > > > Dear all, > > A friend in South Africa involved with pigeon control is working to > find a more humane solution to pigeon-related damage than > poisoning and shooting. > > If any of you reading this, are working on this aswell, Mandy et. al. > > would be glad to hear from you. > > sincerely > Lars M. Olsen From: IN%"heltonws@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU" 23-FEB-1998 12:42:10.97 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dog behavior research Hello All, I was wandering if anyone has knowledge of the personality testing of dogs, especially trait dominance. If there is anyone interested in the behavior of dogs (feral or domestic), I would like to hear from you. Thanks, Deak Helton University of Cincinnati Department of Psychology From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 23-FEB-1998 13:40:43.11 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog behavior research Hi Deak, I am sure you will hear from many on the list interested in dog behavior. I maintain a website dealing with dog training and behavior at http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm There is a section devoted specifically to testing and selection at: http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/lib2.htm#test there is also some additional info on this subject scattered throughout the site. Take care, Mark > ----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- > ----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- > ----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- > ----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- > ----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- > On Monday, February 23, 1998 12:40 PM, [SMTP:heltonws@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU] wrote: > Hello All, > I was wandering if anyone has knowledge of the personality testing > of dogs, especially trait dominance. If there is anyone interested in the > behavior of dogs (feral or domestic), I would like to hear from you. > Thanks, > Deak Helton > University of Cincinnati > Department of Psychology From: IN%"steven@texas.net" "Steven Nicely" 23-FEB-1998 15:15:41.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "animal behavior" CC: Subj: Side Sucking I have a young Mal dogs about 1 1/2 to 2 years old. It sucks its side. This behavior is mostly noticed when we put it in a crate for transporting. When in the crate it will usually take a ball or other object if available and hold it instead of sucking its side. This dog in training rejects the ball or kong as +reinforcement, and works for food. I would like to break the sucking behavior but am at lost as how. It seems based on the dog's behavior this is the result of a form of insecurity. If anyone could offer suggestion to eliminate this behavior they would be greatly appreciated. Steve Nicely From: IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be" "E JORIS" 24-FEB-1998 04:25:34.15 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: transport of cats ands dogs by plain. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_H9o8uDWPuHbwXOYLE9qjdQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, =20 Many thanks for those who advised me the best way to transport animals, = in particular by plane. (IN SHORT: BEST NO TRANQUILIZER BUT KEEP THEM = WARM). My three cats and the dog arrived 10 days ago from Entebbe in = Brussels. Shaken but not in a panic. It is a bit of a shock to be taken = out of a real rain forrest and dumped in a very quite residential area = of Antwerp. They are out and about now and happy. I must say that because I did not sent them, they were not put in their = cage by an upset boss, full of pity, but by someone less emotionally = involved and I also wonder if that made not a big difference. Eva Joris, eduard.joris@planetinternet.be =20 --Boundary_(ID_H9o8uDWPuHbwXOYLE9qjdQ) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Dear All,
 
Many thanks for those who advised me = the best=20 way to transport animals, in particular by plane. (IN SHORT: BEST NO = TRANQUILIZER BUT KEEP THEM WARM). My three cats = and the dog=20 arrived 10 days ago from Entebbe in Brussels. Shaken but not in a panic. = It is a=20 bit of a shock to be taken out of a real rain forrest and dumped in a = very quite=20 residential area of Antwerp. They are out and about now and = happy.
I must say that because I did not sent them, they were not put = in their=20 cage by an upset boss, full of pity, but by someone less emotionally = involved=20 and I also wonder if that made not a big difference.
 
Eva Joris,
eduard.joris@planetinterne= t.be
 
--Boundary_(ID_H9o8uDWPuHbwXOYLE9qjdQ)-- From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" 24-FEB-1998 05:10:44.17 To: IN%"steven@texas.net" "Steven Nicely" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "animal behavior" Subj: RE: Side Sucking On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:13:47 -0600 Steven Nicely wrote: > From: Steven Nicely > Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:13:47 -0600 > Subject: Side Sucking > To: animal behavior > > I have a young Mal dogs about 1 1/2 to 2 years old. It sucks its side. This > behavior is mostly noticed when we put it in a crate for transporting. When > in the crate it will usually take a ball or other object if available and > hold it instead of sucking its side. This dog in training rejects the ball > or kong as +reinforcement, and works for food. > > I would like to break the sucking behavior but am at lost as how. It seems > based on the dog's behavior this is the result of a form of insecurity. If > anyone could offer suggestion to eliminate this behavior they would be > greatly appreciated. > > Steve Nicely > **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 The answer to the questionaires question is in the first sentance. If it ( the writer) thought a little it might be able to solve the dogs problems as he, the dog, has clearly a major insecurity problems with it. (the writer). Marthe Kiley-Worthington M. **************************************************************************** From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" 24-FEB-1998 05:29:06.09 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Horse mating: historical note. On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:46:30 +0000 Robin Walker wrote: > From: Robin Walker > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:46:30 +0000 > Subject: Horse mating: historical note. > To: "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" > > > The bucolic Latin for stallion groom is "origa". I have suggested elsewhere > that the derivation from "auriga" or charioteer is not quite correct. > "Auriga" also means "steersman" and I suspect that the ribald Roman rustics > gave the groom his title by virtue of his manual interventions in the > act of mating seeing some resemblance to wrestling with a steering > oar. > > Columella in De Re Rustica describes horse mating and the use of > a stallion of "inferior breeding" to tease the mare. A literature has been > spawned from the dysfunctional intrusions of man and his money in the > natural act of mating that raises my eye brows as it lowers the horses' > ears! > > I too would be interested to hear of horse mating under free range conditions. > > Is the natural horse herd followed by a small tail of crippled stallions? Are > mares savaged regularly when they have room to manoeuvre and the > stallion has the leisure to interpret the semiology of the moment? > > A discussion about the collision of commercial interest and natural practice > could enliven the welfare debate? > > Robin Walker **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 There is much information on natural mating of horses in many of the studies of feral horses ( see my book behaviour of horse J.A.Allen 1987, and reprinted 1997, for chapter on this) We have been running our stallions ( thoroughbred and arab ) with mares for the last 20 years and studying behaviour of both . One of the interesting things is that we have foals throughout the year and 95% fertility, in fact the problems is to stop breeding, not with crippled rapist stallions hobbling around! One of the seriously important concerns with equine welfare is the normal breeding practises which are equivalent to rape for the mares, ( we have measured heart rates and behaviour indicative of high levels of distress during and after the normal in hand processes). The animal liberation people need to get onto this issue. All the arguments are in my new book Equine Welfare, J.A.Allen 1997 if anyone is interested. Marthe Kiley-Worthington **************************************************************************** From: IN%"prato@imiucca.csi.unimi.it" 24-FEB-1998 05:39:18.10 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dog behavior research Hello all, I am a new italian member of the list, I am interested too in dog behavior and personality assesment tests; in particular I would like to know more about the relationships between owner behavior an personality and dog behavior and personality. I would like to be in touch with others interested in this aspect and to have information and references on this topic. Thanks, Emanuela Prato Previde Emanuela Prato Previde Assistant Professor Istituto di Psicologia Facolta' di Medicina e Chirurgia Universita' di Milano Via T. Pini, 1 20134 Milano Voice: (39)(2) 21210.201 Fax: (39)(2) 2641.3376 Email: prato@imiucca.csi.unimi.it From: IN%"prato@imiucca.csi.unimi.it" 24-FEB-1998 06:03:55.80 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: AnthroZoology Institute To all, I am also interested in the Diploma in Companion Animal Counselling/MSc.by the Anthrozoology Institute in Southhampton, U.K.. But also I would appreciate information on other similar courses in Europe. Thanks, Emanuela Prato Previde Emanuela Prato Previde Assistant Professor Istituto di Psicologia Facolta' di Medicina e Chirurgia Universita' di Milano Via T. Pini, 1 20134 Milano Voice: (39)(2) 21210.201 Fax: (39)(2) 2641.3376 Email: prato@imiucca.csi.unimi.it From: IN%"prato@imiucca.csi.unimi.it" 24-FEB-1998 09:10:21.96 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dog behavior research Hello all, I am a new italian member of the list, I am interested too in dog behavior and personality assesment tests; in particular I would like to know more about the relationships between owner behavior an personality and dog behavior and personality. I would like to be in touch with others interested in this aspect and to have information and references on this topic. Thanks, Emanuela Prato Previde Emanuela Prato Previde Assistant Professor Istituto di Psicologia Facolta' di Medicina e Chirurgia Universita' di Milano Via T. Pini, 1 20134 Milano Voice: (39)(2) 21210.201 Fax: (39)(2) 2641.3376 Email: prato@imiucca.csi.unimi.it From: IN%"prato@imiucca.csi.unimi.it" 24-FEB-1998 09:13:12.29 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: AnthroZoology Institute To all, I am also interested in the Diploma in Companion Animal Counselling/MSc.by the Anthrozoology Institute in Southhampton, U.K.. But also I would appreciate information on other similar courses in Europe. Thanks, Emanuela Prato Previde Emanuela Prato Previde Assistant Professor Istituto di Psicologia Facolta' di Medicina e Chirurgia Universita' di Milano Via T. Pini, 1 20134 Milano Voice: (39)(2) 21210.201 Fax: (39)(2) 2641.3376 Email: prato@imiucca.csi.unimi.it From: IN%"prato@imiucca.csi.unimi.it" 24-FEB-1998 10:33:32.97 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Presentation Hello to All, My name is Emanuela Prato Previde, I am a new memer of this list. I am a biologist with a Ph.D in Psychobiology (Biology of behaviour) I am Assistant Professor at the Institute of Psychology of the Medical Faculty of the University of Milan (Italy). I am part of a small "comparative psychology and ethology group", working on rodents (hamsters) and monkeys (pigtailed macaques). My main research intetrests concern learning (specially social learning), communication and cognition. Emanuela Prato Previde Emanuela Prato Previde Assistant Professor Istituto di Psicologia Facolta' di Medicina e Chirurgia Universita' di Milano Via T. Pini, 1 20134 Milano Voice: (39)(2) 21210.201 Fax: (39)(2) 2641.3376 Email: prato@imiucca.csi.unimi.it From: IN%"lynfra@globalnet.co.uk" "Lynn Crook" 24-FEB-1998 13:02:56.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: THANK YOU Hello, Its Hannah again, I am just writing to say a VERY big thank you to all the people who replied to my questions, they were all helpful, Especially the ones about university courses. I am hoping to get into the Animal science course at De Montfort University in lincoln. Anyway, I will sign off now, but I may come back again to find out some more info. Once again, THANKS!!! Bye bye Hannah From: IN%"pearso21@pilot.msu.edu" "Stacy Ann Pearson" 24-FEB-1998 14:07:10.90 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: stereotypies in sheep I am a new subscriber, and am a student at Michigan State University, majoring in Animal Science. I am interested to know if anyone has any information on stereotypic behavior in sheep. I have found little information on the topic, and would appreciate any input. Thanks, Stacy Pearson e-mail pearso21@pilot.msu.edu From: IN%"righetti@ozemail.com.au" "righetti" 24-FEB-1998 16:29:25.76 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_S9QQXcRupP59wuKExVlrbA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I am new to the list. My name is Joanne Righetti and I am in Sydney, = Australia. My interests are in animal behaviour and human-animal interactions, in = particular those with pets. I have a degree in zoology, a PhD in animal = behaviour and a diploma in counselling. At present, I work as an animal behaviour consultant, helping people = with their pet's behavioural problems and educating and informing pet = owners. I would be interested in hearing from anyone involved in companion = animal research, especially in socialisation of cats and also research = on their hunting behaviour. In Australia, cats are not well regarded due to their preying on the = native Australian wildlife. Australia has a unique fauna which must be = protected but pets are an important source of companionship for many = people. It is often difficult to reach a balance. I hope that education = on responsible ownership is the way to go. I would also be interested in hearing from people who work with local = councils or government in the area of domestic animal behaviour. I look forward to many interesting discussions. Regards Joanne From Dr Joanne Righetti righetti@ozemail.com.au --Boundary_(ID_S9QQXcRupP59wuKExVlrbA) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
I am new to the list. My name is = Joanne Righetti=20 and I am in Sydney, Australia.
 
My interests are in animal behaviour = and=20 human-animal interactions, in particular those with pets. I have a = degree in=20 zoology, a PhD in animal behaviour and a diploma in = counselling.
 
At present, I work as an animal = behaviour=20 consultant, helping people with their pet's behavioural problems and = educating=20 and informing pet owners.
 
I would be interested in hearing = from anyone=20 involved in companion animal research, especially in socialisation of = cats and=20 also research on their hunting behaviour.
 
In Australia, cats are not well = regarded due to=20 their preying on the native Australian wildlife. Australia has a unique = fauna=20 which must be protected but pets are an important source of = companionship for=20 many people. It is often difficult to reach a balance. I hope that = education on=20 responsible ownership is the way to go.
 
I would also be interested in = hearing from=20 people who work with local councils or government in the area of = domestic animal=20 behaviour.
 
I look forward to many interesting=20 discussions.
 
Regards
Joanne
 
 
From Dr Joanne Righetti
righetti@ozemail.com.au
 
--Boundary_(ID_S9QQXcRupP59wuKExVlrbA)-- From: IN%"boris@lds.co.uk" "Yvonne Miles" 24-FEB-1998 16:30:48.69 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dogs This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Ajf851pe4675UO72zvBiHw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi ! Just a small introduction first, I am a graduate student, B.Sc. Hons in Biology, from Southampton University. I would like some help if possible..... Is there anyone who could provide me with some references on emotional disturbances in pet dogs. Thanking you in anticipation. Yvonne Miles --Boundary_(ID_Ajf851pe4675UO72zvBiHw) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi !
Just a small introduction = first, I am a graduate student, B.Sc. Hons in Biology, from Southampton = University.
I would like some help if possible.....  
Is = there anyone who could provide me with some references on emotional = disturbances in pet dogs.
Thanking you in anticipation.
Yvonne = Miles

--Boundary_(ID_Ajf851pe4675UO72zvBiHw)-- From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 24-FEB-1998 17:58:56.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "animal behavior" CC: Subj: RE: Side Sucking Concerning the side-sucking problem in Steve's young Malinois, On 2/23/98, Steven Nicely [SMTP:steven@texas.net] wrote: > I have a young Mal dogs about 1 1/2 to 2 years old. It sucks its side. This behavior is mostly noticed when we put it in a crate for transporting. When in the crate it will usually take a ball or other object if available and hold it instead of sucking its side. This dog in training rejects the ball or kong as +reinforcement, and works for food. > > I would like to break the sucking behavior but am at lost as how. It seems based on the dog's behavior this is the result of a form of insecurity. If anyone could offer suggestion to eliminate this behavior they would be greatly appreciated. On 2/24/98 5:10 AM, Marthe Kiley-Worthington [SMTP:M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk] wrote: >The answer to the questionaires question is in the first sentance. If it ( the writer) thought a little it might be able to solve the dogs problems as he, the dog, has clearly a major insecurity problems with it. (the writer). I think Marthe's "diagnosis" of the problem is a premature. I don't think we have enough info to say that the problem is due to a poor relationship with the dog. The fact that the problem is specific to the crate could argue against this as well. I lean more towards explanations such as boredom, anxiety, lack of activity and/or a genetic predisposition toward such obsessive behavior. In any event, for some treatment ideas, see the pointers to articles dealing with obsessive types of behaviors in dogs at my website at: http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/lib-prob.htm#oth or some of the articles listed on the applied ethology behavior problems page at: http://duke.usask.ca/~stookey/contents.html Take care, Dr. P Dog Training Site - http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm From: IN%"jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp" "Janice Willard" 25-FEB-1998 01:01:13.75 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Side Sucking I agree with Dr. Plonsky that it is premature to diagnose this dog's "problem" based on the little information available here (although we always want to try). I would like to suggest that *first* the dog be taken to a veterinarian to rule out any medical circumstances which may be causing or contributing to this dog's reaction to stress. (All of which shows how true the adage "when you are a hammer, all problems look like a nail"). I am uncomfortable with the statement: > I would like to break the sucking behavior but am at lost as how. Maybe I am just splitting semantic hairs, but what exactly do you want to "break"? If, for example (bearing in mind that many possible diagnoses should be considered at this point) your dog is doing this behavior as a last resort way of coping with almost overwelming distress, then what would it do to him if you try to "break him of it?" In other words, if you are more interested in "helping your dog" to overcome a problem, then you may want to reconsider the implications of your stated objectives. And you need to shift your focus from the behavior itself to the causes of that behavior. Where are you located in Texas? There is a good veterinary behaviorist at the veterinary college at Texas A and M. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress. At 05:58 PM 2/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >Concerning the side-sucking problem in Steve's young Malinois, > >On 2/23/98, Steven Nicely [SMTP:steven@texas.net] wrote: >> I have a young Mal dogs about 1 1/2 to 2 years old. It sucks its side. >This behavior is mostly noticed when we put it in a crate for transporting. >When in the crate it will usually take a ball or other object if available >and hold it instead of sucking its side. This dog in training rejects the >ball or kong as +reinforcement, and works for food. >> >> I would like to break the sucking behavior but am at lost as how. It seems >based on the dog's behavior this is the result of a form of insecurity. If >anyone could offer suggestion to eliminate this behavior they would be >greatly appreciated. > >On 2/24/98 5:10 AM, Marthe Kiley-Worthington >[SMTP:M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk] wrote: >>The answer to the questionaires question is in the first sentance. If it ( >the writer) thought a little it might be able to solve the dogs problems as >he, the dog, has clearly a major insecurity problems with it. (the writer). > >I think Marthe's "diagnosis" of the problem is a premature. I don't think >we have enough info to say that the problem is due to a poor relationship >with the dog. The fact that the problem is specific to the crate could >argue against this as well. I lean more towards explanations such as >boredom, anxiety, lack of activity and/or a genetic predisposition toward >such obsessive behavior. > >In any event, for some treatment ideas, see the pointers to articles dealing >with obsessive types of behaviors in dogs at my website at: > http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/lib-prob.htm#oth >or some of the articles listed on the applied ethology behavior problems >page at: > http://duke.usask.ca/~stookey/contents.html > >Take care, >Dr. P >Dog Training Site - http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm > > > *************************************************************************** Janice Willard, DVM MS Tokyo 194, Machida-shi Higashi Tamagawa Gakuen 1-33-66 Japan Phone/FAX (81)427-29-4519 Message FAX (81)427-21-2850 jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp From: IN%"info@avensa.net" 25-FEB-1998 03:08:20.43 To: IN%"yourcomputer@home.com" CC: Subj: $ No1 Biz running on 2 years!! Expanding Your Income Generating Portfolio Has Just become Easier.... 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In USA / Canada 800-811-2141 Code # 46707 Gets You Involved Information by fax on demand is also available This company has been in business for 2 years. For more info please visit http://www.concepts2001.com/F5000.html ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// If you wish to be "Removed" from any future mailings, please reply with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you from our future mailings. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 25-FEB-1998 03:50:05.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: Sidesuckers > think Marthe's "diagnosis" of the problem is a premature. I don't think >we have enough info to say that the problem is due to a poor relationship >with the dog. I think in fairness to Marthe the dog wandered into a cavalry skirmish. I had just playfully pointed my sabre at the "equine date rapers" and "drug forced ejaculators" and was wheeling my thoughts into line when Marthe rode them down like a brigade of Polish Lancers! So I sounded "Water Horses" and withdrew. I think The Doberman presents as a "flank sucker" from time to time. The German Shepherd police "cadet" under pressure from a hard trainer and the training timetable, sometimes begins to "flank swoop". The head swings round to the flank rhythmically and repeatedly with the nose stopping just short of the skin usually. This I am sure is a response to the pressure of the moment. By the by if anyone is interested in the replies I have received about Heat and Horses in History and stuff, I will send them out. Robin From: IN%"BBEAVER@CVM.TAMU.EDU" "Bonnie Beaver" 25-FEB-1998 08:11:32.65 To: IN%"teedyvan@aol.com", IN%"huttonn@ccmail.orst.edu", IN%"74232.1150@compuserve.com", IN%"74232.251@compuserve.com", IN%"74253.1236@compuserve.com", IN%"grayburn@inficad.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"grand018@tc.umn.edu", IN%"barteje@ve CC: Subj: Fwd: GCFL: Sayings Dear friends, I just had to forward the attached to those with my warped sense of humor I have. Some of these are priceless. Enjoy, BB Received: from droopy.adtran.com ([206.26.160.250]) by CVM.TAMU.EDU; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:16:59 -0600 Received: (from slist@localhost) by droopy.adtran.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24238; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:20:34 -0600 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:15:02 -0600 Message-Id: <199802250215.UAA19469@droopy.adtran.com> Subject: GCFL: Sayings X-Mailing-List: formail -q- -D 8192 msgid.cache Precedence: list From: GCFL To: Members of GCFL X-Loop: gcfl@usa.net Better to be occasionally cheated than perpetually suspicious. In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life. IT GOES ON. Accept than some days you're the pigeon, and some days you're the statue. There are two things to aim at in life: first to get what you want and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. There is no right way to do the wrong thing. The best vitamin for making friends: B1. Knowledge is like a garden; if it is not cultivated, it cannot be harvested. Needing a man is like needing a parachute. If he isn't there the first time you need him, chances are you won't be needing him again. If you can't be the tablecloth, don't be the dishrag. I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem. Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and I thought to myself, "Where the heck is the ceiling?!" I love deadlines. I especially like the whooshing sound they make as they go flying by. Am I getting smart with you? ....How would you know? I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves. I'm not just a gardener, I'm a Plant Manager. My Reality Check bounced. On the keyboard of life, always keep one finger on the escape key. You're slower than a herd of turtles stampeding through peanut butter. I don't suffer from stress. I'm a carrier. I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous. There are two rules for ultimate success in life: (1) Never tell everything you know. I'd explain it to you, but your brain would explode. Tell me what you need, and I'll tell you how to get along without it. Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. Someday we'll look back on all this and plow into a parked car. We having nothing to fear but fear itself. That, and maybe getting mugged by someone wearing a "No Fear" T-shirt. --Lev L. Spiro There's no real need to do housework -- after four years it doesn't get any worse. Everybody is somebody else's weirdo. --Dykstra O give me a home, Where the buffalo roam, Where the deer and the antelope play, Where seldom is heard A discouraging word, 'Cause what can an antelope say? There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved through a suitable application of high explosives. You'll never be the man your mother was! Drive defensively. Buy a tank. Don't hate yourself in the morning -- sleep till noon. The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues. --Elizabeth Taylor Benson, you are so free of the ravages of intelligence. --Time Bandits Good news is just life's way of keeping you off balance. Carelessly planned projects take three times longer to complete than expected. Carefully planned projects take four times longer to complete than expected, mostly because the planners expect their planning to reduce the time it takes. Don't cook tonight -- starve a rat today! Grelb's Reminder: Eighty percent of all people consider themselves to be above average drivers. God did not create the world in 7 days; he messed around for 6 days and then pulled an all-nighter. Thanx to Jerard Muszik & Keith Sullivan. -=+=- The Good, Clean Funnies List: Good, clean funnies five times a week, for free! To subscribe or unsubscribe send email with "add" or "remove" in the subject line (without the quotes) to "gcfl-request@usa.net". Send submissions and comments to "gcfl@usa.net". Or go to the web page: http://www.angelfire.com/al/GCFL A cheerful heart is good medicine... Prov 17:22a (NIV) From: IN%"steven@texas.net" "Steven Nicely" 25-FEB-1998 10:58:09.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "animal behavior" CC: Subj: Sidesucking Thanks Thank each and everyone of you for taking time to add valuable input to this problem. I agree with one post about heavy handed. It is not uncommon for us to receive dogs with signs of what I feel are the results of excessive punishment. I needed more input as to the different causes this behavior as I want to try my behavior modification skill to eliminate this behavior. I have only seen it no more than 3-4 times out of the 1300+ dogs I have seen or work with over the years. I should have researched the causes of this behavior, but time constraints did not allow it. Thanks again. Steve Nicely From: IN%"RebecaAuge@aol.com" 25-FEB-1998 14:00:50.09 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Domestication of animals Does anyone have a best estimate time table for the domestication of various animals species by homo sapiens? I'm interested in estimates for the dog, cat, horse, cow, pig, chicken, duck, and any other species one might have estimates on from the historical record, writings, art, fossils, etc. I'm an experimental and clinical psychologist with interests in basic and applied ethology in Oakland, CA. TIA Rebecca Auge, Ph.D. From: IN%"nick.green@bbc.co.uk" 25-FEB-1998 15:34:48.76 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: animals and emotions I know this is a bit of soft science, but is anybody out there working on, or is interested in, the emotional lives of animals? Regards, Nick Green nick.green@bbc.co.uk From: IN%"bhayes@dsu.deltast.edu" "William A. Hayes" 25-FEB-1998 15:46:07.76 To: IN%"nick.green@bbc.co.uk" "Nick Green-SCIENCE" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology'" Subj: RE: animals and emotions At one level or another, I believe most of us are. Which animals are you interested in and what particular emotional aspects of their lives? I work primarily with aggression and courtship related behavior in lower verts and inverts... that's fairly emotional :) At this moment in my office I have several male pygmy crayfish attempting to mate with females which are already ovigerous (carrying eggs beneath their abdomens). Perhaps frustration is also an emotion in some animals :) On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Nick Green-SCIENCE wrote: > > I know this is a bit of soft science, but is anybody out there working > on, or is interested in, the emotional lives of animals? > > Regards, Nick Green > nick.green@bbc.co.uk > > Best wishes, Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William A. Hayes, II, Ph.D. | If you follow your bliss, you put yourself Professor of Biology | on a kind of a track that has been there P.O.Box 3234 | the whole while, waiting for you, and the Delta State University | life you ought to be living is the one you Cleveland, MS 38733 | are living. --- Joseph Campbell ph: 601-846-4247 \ _____ ____ fax: 601-846-4016 | \_____ _____/ \ email: bhayes@dsu.deltast.edu | __ \^^/ __ | | ////)\(0= =0)/(\\\\ // ^\| / ^^ \ |/^ \\ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Website - http://okra.deltast.edu/~bhayes/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"sisyphus@spec.net" 25-FEB-1998 17:50:24.15 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Specificaly canine? I have recently joined the discussion group, and have been reading with interest. I am an MD working with an animal behaviorist on a home study course in dog training and behavior. I was wondering if anyone could recommend a concise reference specifically introducing canine ethology. Thanks. Debra Leisman From: IN%"jamench@ucdavis.edu" "Joy A. Mench" 25-FEB-1998 17:53:13.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "appl-ethol" CC: Subj: Conference annoucement BIOLOGY OF ANIMAL STRESS: IMPLICATIONS FOR ANIMAL WELL-BEING A conference on the biology of animal stress and the implications for animal well-being will be held at the University of California, Davis, on August 16-19, 1998. Presentations will cover four general areas: biology of the stress response, impact of long-term stress on animals, cognitive and developmental aspects of animal stress, and methods for alleviating animal stress. The goal of the conference is to facilitate the exchange of ideas and research data among individuals working with laboratory animals, farm animals, and zoo animals. The primary focus will be on behavioral and environmental stressors and their relationship to well-being. Speakers will address this topic from the perspectives of basic stress research, human biomedical research, animal welfare research, and applied behavior research. Each session will be followed by workshops. A poster presentation of ongoing research will be a part of the program, and submission of relevant posters is invited. More information about speakers and conference registration can be found on the conference web site (www.aes.ucdavis.edu/AnStress.html) which will be updated regularly. Information can also be obtained by phone (530-752-5597; speak with Susan Kancir), e-mail (AnStress@agdean.ucdavis.edu), or by mail (Center for Animal Welfare, Center for Special Programs, Meyer Hall, University of California, One Shields Avenue, Davis, CA 95616). From: IN%"kitana@c-zone.net" "Kitana" 25-FEB-1998 18:14:04.87 To: IN%"nick.green@bbc.co.uk" "'Nick Green-SCIENCE'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology'" CC: Subj: Greets Hello My name Is lyssa and I'm new to the list. And of course and have a huge = Interest In animals. My Main Interest Is In larger cats (Tigars, = Cheetas, ect.) And also In Dolphins. I'm 20 and i'm looking for a feild = to specialize In. I would Like to work eventually In a Zoo. But for the = mean time I would like to do some learning. I'm currently Getting ready = to go work as a volunteer at The Marine Mammal Center In San Fransico, = As for now an ankle Injury has prevented me from driving or going to = work. So I'm looking forward to all topics. As for right now I'am = raising a Cockatoo Umbrella & a Military Macaw If anyone has any = questions I'd be happy to answer them. -Lyssa -----Original Message----- From: Nick Green-SCIENCE [SMTP:nick.green@bbc.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 1:34 PM To: 'Applied Ethology' Subject: animals and emotions I know this is a bit of soft science, but is anybody out there working = on, or is interested in, the emotional lives of animals? Regards, Nick Green nick.green@bbc.co.uk =20 From: IN%"csunsay@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu" "Ceyhun Sunsay" 25-FEB-1998 20:46:28.41 To: IN%"kitana@c-zone.net" "Kitana" CC: IN%"nick.green@bbc.co.uk" "'Nick Green-SCIENCE'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology'" Subj: RE: Greets Hi Lyssa, I can recommend you Behavioral Ecology. It's about prey-predator relationships; foraging behaviors of animals in nature. It also includes nest making behavior and migration of birds. Behavior of animals in nature. I believe you will enjoy it. There are some books about Behavioral Ecology. I don't remember their names right now.The most fundamental one is "Behavioral Ecology" Authors are Krebs and Davis. The date is 1985(I'm not sure). Good luck! Ceyhun On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Kitana wrote: > Hello > My name Is lyssa and I'm new to the list. And of course and have a huge Interest In animals. My Main Interest Is In larger cats (Tigars, Cheetas, ect.) And also In Dolphins. I'm 20 and i'm looking for a feild to specialize In. I would Like to work eventually In a Zoo. But for the mean time I would like to do some learning. I'm currently Getting ready to go work as a volunteer at The Marine Mammal Center In San Fransico, As for now an ankle Injury has prevented me from driving or going to work. So I'm looking forward to all topics. As for right now I'am raising a Cockatoo Umbrella & a Military Macaw If anyone has any questions I'd be happy to answer them. > > -Lyssa > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nick Green-SCIENCE [SMTP:nick.green@bbc.co.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 1:34 PM > To: 'Applied Ethology' > Subject: animals and emotions > > > I know this is a bit of soft science, but is anybody out there working > on, or is interested in, the emotional lives of animals? > > Regards, Nick Green > nick.green@bbc.co.uk From: IN%"uetake@cryo.affrc.go.jp" "K. Uetake" 26-FEB-1998 06:20:49.90 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Symposium announcement "Farm Animal Behaviour Science and Animal Husbandry in Asia" An international symposium on farm animal behaviour science and animal husbandry in Asia will be held as a satellite workshop of the 8th WCAP at Seoul National University, Korea, on the 1st July 1998. The symposium is organized by the Japanese Organizing Committee on Farm Animal Behaviour and the ISAE Orient Region. For further information, please contact the Workshop Secretariat, Dr. Takeshi Yasue, Faculty of Agriculture, Ibaraki University, Ibaraki 300-0393, Japan. Tel: +81 298 88 8576; Fax: +81 298 88 8525; Email: tyasue@ami.ipc.ibaraki.ac.jp Those interested in participating and who are planning to present a paper in the WCAP are recommended to contact the Workshop Secretariat as quickly as possible. The early registration to the Workshop makes it possible that their presentations in the WCAP do not fall on the same time with the symposium. From: IN%"BARWIG@novell.vuzv.cz" 26-FEB-1998 06:40:52.70 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hello all, I am new to the list and I just wanted to introduce myself briefly. I am working in the deer ethology group in the Czech Republic and my main interest is the vocal communication in deer. If anybody knows of any articles concerning this subject I would be very happy to hear from you. Thanks, Jasmin Barwig From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" "G. F. Barbato" 26-FEB-1998 09:00:21.16 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"RebecaAuge@aol.com" CC: Subj: RE: Domestication of animals rebecca, at the risk of answering before Ed Price .... whose recent paper in Temple Grandin's book is a definite MUST READ.... there is an excellent 'old' book (though still newer than me....) by Zeuner (A History of Domesticated Animals, 1963) relating quite a bit of archaeological evidence regarding most domestic animal species. in general the dog (please --- no more dog discussions) is considered to be the 1st domesticated animal species with dates ranging from 15,000 to +100,000 years ago (so much for molecular genetics...) best guess looks to be in the 20K range (though this is definitely older than me). there are some wonderful 'just so' stories of why the dog was domesticated. the most rational (to me) is the 'wet nurse' hypothesis, which should please the dairy-folk no end (cow as bigdog) reindeer and goats were probably next. though they are pretty boring and predated Santa. cattle, buffalo, pigs and sheep (of contemporary species) were next...during the pre-agricultural phase of human existence Sheep probably come in pretty close to the dear old chicken (though more recent estimates of the chicken ca. 5-8Kyears are prevalent in the literature). the chicken being the most interesting, of course, as the only animal to have been domesticated due to its magical properties (if I called and Apollo came -- i would be worth keeping around, not to mention given tenure). cats, on the other hand, have never been domesticated. although they are responsible for the invention of most small kitchen appliances.......... : ) i would also recommend Hafez's 'old' book, The Behavior of Domestic Animals, juliet clutton-brock's younger book 'history of domestic animals', Darwin -- not the evolution book, Shale, etc. there were some marvelous articles in the 70's on the genetics of the domestication process by Belyaev (silver foxes) and Boice (rats), though i'm a fan of Richter's older studies, et al.... well, thats about the first 2 1/2 weeks of my animal genetics course. one of these days i'll have to write my own chapter. hope that gives you a start. regards, guy > -----Original Message----- > From: RebecaAuge@aol.com [mailto:RebecaAuge@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 3:00 PM > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Domestication of animals > > > Does anyone have a best estimate time table for the domestication of > various animals species by homo sapiens? > > I'm interested in estimates for the dog, cat, horse, cow, pig, chicken, > duck, and any other species one might have estimates on from the > historical record, writings, art, fossils, etc. > > I'm an experimental and clinical psychologist with interests in basic and > applied ethology in Oakland, CA. > > TIA > > Rebecca Auge, Ph.D. > From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 26-FEB-1998 10:22:36.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology-error", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"RebecaAuge@aol.com" "RebecaAuge" CC: Subj: RE: Domestication of animals Dear Guy: Thank you for answering Rebecca's question about the time-table (history) of domestication. The references you cited are the ones I would have recommended. I wish I could sit in on your course. Ed Price eoprice@ucdavis.edu ---------- >From: applied-ethology-error >To: Applied Ethology; RebecaAuge >Subject: RE: Domestication of animals >Date: Thursday, February 26, 1998 10:05AM > >rebecca, >at the risk of answering before Ed Price .... whose recent paper in Temple >Grandin's book is a definite MUST READ.... > >there is an excellent 'old' book (though still newer than me....) by Zeuner >(A History of Domesticated Animals, 1963) relating quite a bit of >archaeological evidence regarding most domestic animal species. > >in general the dog (please --- no more dog discussions) is considered to be >the 1st domesticated animal species with dates ranging from 15,000 to >+100,000 years ago (so much for molecular genetics...) best guess looks to >be in the 20K range (though this is definitely older than me). there are >some wonderful 'just so' stories of why the dog was domesticated. the most >rational (to me) is the 'wet nurse' hypothesis, which should please the >dairy-folk no end (cow as bigdog) > >reindeer and goats were probably next. though they are pretty boring and >predated Santa. > >cattle, buffalo, pigs and sheep (of contemporary species) were next...during >the pre-agricultural phase of human existence > >Sheep probably come in pretty close to the dear old chicken (though more >recent estimates of the chicken ca. 5-8Kyears are prevalent in the >literature). the chicken being the most interesting, of course, as the only >animal to have been domesticated due to its magical properties (if I called >and Apollo came -- i would be worth keeping around, not to mention given >tenure). > >cats, on the other hand, have never been domesticated. although they are >responsible for the invention of most small kitchen appliances.......... : ) > >i would also recommend Hafez's 'old' book, The Behavior of Domestic Animals, >juliet clutton-brock's younger book 'history of domestic animals', Darwin -- >not the evolution book, Shale, etc. >there were some marvelous articles in the 70's on the genetics of the >domestication process by Belyaev (silver foxes) and Boice (rats), though i'm >a fan of Richter's older studies, et al.... > >well, thats about the first 2 1/2 weeks of my animal genetics course. >one of these days i'll have to write my own chapter. > >hope that gives you a start. >regards, >guy > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RebecaAuge@aol.com [mailto:RebecaAuge@aol.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 3:00 PM >> To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca >> Subject: Domestication of animals >> >> >> Does anyone have a best estimate time table for the domestication of >> various animals species by homo sapiens? >> >> I'm interested in estimates for the dog, cat, horse, cow, pig, chicken, >> duck, and any other species one might have estimates on from the >> historical record, writings, art, fossils, etc. >> >> I'm an experimental and clinical psychologist with interests in basic and >> applied ethology in Oakland, CA. >> >> TIA >> >> Rebecca Auge, Ph.D. >> > > From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 26-FEB-1998 10:22:52.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology-error", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"RebecaAuge@aol.com" "RebecaAuge" CC: Subj: RE: Domestication of animals Dear Guy: Thank you for answering Rebecca's question about the time-table (history) of domestication. The references you cited are the ones I would have recommended. I wish I could sit in on your course. Ed Price eoprice@ucdavis.edu ---------- >From: applied-ethology-error >To: Applied Ethology; RebecaAuge >Subject: RE: Domestication of animals >Date: Thursday, February 26, 1998 10:05AM > >rebecca, >at the risk of answering before Ed Price .... whose recent paper in Temple >Grandin's book is a definite MUST READ.... > >there is an excellent 'old' book (though still newer than me....) by Zeuner >(A History of Domesticated Animals, 1963) relating quite a bit of >archaeological evidence regarding most domestic animal species. > >in general the dog (please --- no more dog discussions) is considered to be >the 1st domesticated animal species with dates ranging from 15,000 to >+100,000 years ago (so much for molecular genetics...) best guess looks to >be in the 20K range (though this is definitely older than me). there are >some wonderful 'just so' stories of why the dog was domesticated. the most >rational (to me) is the 'wet nurse' hypothesis, which should please the >dairy-folk no end (cow as bigdog) > >reindeer and goats were probably next. though they are pretty boring and >predated Santa. > >cattle, buffalo, pigs and sheep (of contemporary species) were next...during >the pre-agricultural phase of human existence > >Sheep probably come in pretty close to the dear old chicken (though more >recent estimates of the chicken ca. 5-8Kyears are prevalent in the >literature). the chicken being the most interesting, of course, as the only >animal to have been domesticated due to its magical properties (if I called >and Apollo came -- i would be worth keeping around, not to mention given >tenure). > >cats, on the other hand, have never been domesticated. although they are >responsible for the invention of most small kitchen appliances.......... : ) > >i would also recommend Hafez's 'old' book, The Behavior of Domestic Animals, >juliet clutton-brock's younger book 'history of domestic animals', Darwin -- >not the evolution book, Shale, etc. >there were some marvelous articles in the 70's on the genetics of the >domestication process by Belyaev (silver foxes) and Boice (rats), though i'm >a fan of Richter's older studies, et al.... > >well, thats about the first 2 1/2 weeks of my animal genetics course. >one of these days i'll have to write my own chapter. > >hope that gives you a start. >regards, >guy > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RebecaAuge@aol.com [mailto:RebecaAuge@aol.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 3:00 PM >> To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca >> Subject: Domestication of animals >> >> >> Does anyone have a best estimate time table for the domestication of >> various animals species by homo sapiens? >> >> I'm interested in estimates for the dog, cat, horse, cow, pig, chicken, >> duck, and any other species one might have estimates on from the >> historical record, writings, art, fossils, etc. >> >> I'm an experimental and clinical psychologist with interests in basic and >> applied ethology in Oakland, CA. >> >> TIA >> >> Rebecca Auge, Ph.D. From: IN%"prato@imiucca.csi.unimi.it" 26-FEB-1998 11:03:47.63 To: IN%"nick.green@bbc.co.uk" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology'" Subj: RE: animals and emotions on Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:33:59 +0000 you wrote >I know this is a bit of soft science, but is anybody out there working >on, or is interested in, the emotional lives of animals? ******************************************************************************* At one level or another, I believe most of us are I do not think that working on animal emotions is to be considered soft science: the problem, in my opinion, is that it is, for several reasons, a difficult topic for scientists. The concept of emotion is a complex one and may be considered in different species and from very different perspectives. There is some literature concerning the broad field of animal emotions: it depends on which animals you are interested in and on what particular emotional aspects. Did you read the book by Darwin "The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals " (1872)? If you didn't I reccomend you this book as a fundamental one: most of the work carried out on both humans and animals do refer in a way or another to his work. Hoping this is of help Regards Emanuela Prato Previde Emanuela Prato Previde Assistant Professor Istituto di Psicologia Facolta' di Medicina e Chirurgia Universita' di Milano Via T. Pini, 1 20134 Milano Voice: (39)(2) 21210.201 Fax: (39)(2) 2641.3376 Email: prato@imiucca.csi.unimi.it From: IN%"bitterm@hotmail.com" "Bill Jones" 26-FEB-1998 11:44:49.63 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: animals and emotions The best way to deal with the animal emotion is not to do too much scientifically about it, unless you have much time and a plenty of resources for you to spare on the fancy. We have not yet had a ladder to step on to reach that height, given the today's neuro-physilogical study level. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"stiefevl@plu.edu" "Vernon Stiefel" 26-FEB-1998 14:20:42.28 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Capture-Mark-Recapture I recently decided to subscribe to this listing because of the discussion on toe clipping of rodents for capture-mark-recapture experiments. I teach a field methods course and am planning on doing a C-M-R experiment with a rodent population but do not want to clip the toes of the individuals we initially capture. Does anybody know of a reliable marking system that doesn't involve removing the appendages of the animal? Thank you for your time, Vern Stiefel -- a j D X g k j S v G Vernon Stiefel Department of Biology Pacific Lutheran University Tacoma, Washington 94447-0003 (253) 535-8002 stiefevl@plu.edu a j D X g k j S v G From: IN%"suemcd@vet.upenn.edu" "Sue McDonnell" 26-FEB-1998 14:53:43.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Draft Horses Dear Group, Can anyone direct me to studies or references comparing normal and abnormal behavior of draft (heavy) horses, ponies, and light horses. For example, I hear anecdotes about draft horses being more apt to "play in their water bucket," or more or less apt to develop "bad habis" than light horses or ponies. Perhaps Dr. Andrew Fraser is on this list, any ideas or quotable wisdom? Sue Sue M. McDonnell, PhD Equine Behavior Lab at New Bolton Center University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine 382 West Street Road Kennett Square, PA 19348 610-444-5800 X2221 Fax 610-444-0829 suemcd@vet.upenn.edu From: IN%"rman@cmn.net" 26-FEB-1998 20:40:00.55 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Long overdue Introduction Salutations fellow list members. I've decided to join the list of people de-lurking and I must say it long over due as I've been haunting the disscussion threads for six months now. I've been owned by various companion animals since the age of five when a beautiful callico graced the family with the arrival of her kittens. I've worked to raise and train dogs, pigs, horses, sheep , chickens, rabbits and cattle for show, food production, research and pure joy. My family at one time raised a variety of pheseant and jungle fowl, including some San Diego Zoo stock. I have recently finished undergraduate studies. My degrees include a Bachlor of Art in English and a Bachlor of Science in Biology. Currently, I have finished a sabatical from acadamia. Refreshed and once again excited about resaerch, I am in the process of selecting a graduate school. My desire is to work for and with scientists who are open to inderdiciplaniary study. My eventual goal is to help put the science in science writing. I'd like to work to support struggling researchers by reporting on their finds, bringing grant money pouring-in (ok so I'm young and still idealistic:)). Don't mistake my interest in writing about science for a disinterest in becoming Phd in Ethology or a related field. I think to write about a particular area, one should become an expert. I've worked closely with animals, studied them informally and feel confident that this is the field for me. I would love to compare notes with other students looking for Graduate schools. I would also welcome advice from all you experts lucky enough to work in the animal sciences. If anyone is interested in a hard working graduate student, I would be happy to learn about your program, intitution's application process, and send a resume. I'm willing to travel and the type of animal studied is not as important to me as who guides that study. **************************************************************************** ************************************************************************* -Sasha Nelson, BS, BA (Saddly in need of e-mail with spell check tonight :)) http://www.suite101.com study abroad contributing editor rman@cmn.net -I know only too well that many of my fellow-men are also naturalists and treasure-hunters at heart, and often feel the urge to break out for a while and live a little closer to Nature. Preface to .Curious Naturalists by Niko Tinbergen -No one who has lived with animals would deny their capacity to feel. from .When Elephants Weep. by masson and McCarthy -Studing and quantifing animal feelings is another matter entirely! From: IN%"sbcom@wainfleet.ids.on.ca" 27-FEB-1998 00:07:12.40 To: IN%"WantFree@software4.you.ca" CC: Subj: suggestion Visit http:www.sface.com for free software Sara James From: IN%"quinlan@bendnet.com" "George Quinlan" 27-FEB-1998 01:06:10.26 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: allelomimetic behavior Good day all; Can anybody direct me to any papers, books, articles or research concerning allelomimetic behavior? I have been searching without much luck. The only pieces I have found so far are from John Paul Scott and Roger Abrantes. Anything about this topic would be greatly appreciated, my research is at a halt. George Phillip Quinlan All About Dogs Behavior and Training Center quinlan@bendnet.com From: IN%"pdkaio@pobox.ruu.nl" "Pascalle van Loo" 27-FEB-1998 02:35:06.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: urine collection methods-THANK YOU Dear all, I would like to thank all people who have responded to my request for urine collection in mice. Although I had already tried several of your ideas without success before, there certainly were some useful tips that I will try. Greetings from Pascalle van Loo ****************************************** * Department of Laboratory Animal Science* * PO Box 80.166 * * 3508 TD Utrecht * * The Netherlands * * * * tel: **31302532033 * * fax: **31302537997 * ****************************************** From: IN%"imiuvezo@imiucca.csi.unimi.it" "Istituto di Zootecnica Veterinaria" 27-FEB-1998 04:32:20.65 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Thanks Dear List, Thank you to all who have sent me informations on regurgitation during weaning. Really very useful! Best Regards. Cilla From: IN%"mrpounds@ucdavis.edu" "Mary Pounds" 27-FEB-1998 09:17:10.54 To: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" "G. F. Barbato" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"RebecaAuge@aol.com" Subj: RE: Domestication of animals Hi all, Please don't forget those other domestic animals: llamas and alpacas ~6,000 years ago camels, elephants, reindeer ??? all very important in the lives and cultures of their people! Sue Pounds, DVM From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" "G. F. Barbato" 27-FEB-1998 12:00:28.71 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"mrpounds@ucdavis.edu" "Mary Pounds" CC: Subj: RE: Domestication of animals lest we forget........... the almost-national-bird-of-the-US ---> the turkey. about 1K years ago, and the only animal domesticated in the North/Central America (discounting catfish, maybe, and a few of my favorite bivalves in california over the next few years) nor forget the Guinea Pig --- same time frame --- only from SAmerica and quite tasty (IMO) though all things considered, as of 1992 there were ca. 17x10^9 chickens, 2x10^9 sheep and goats, 1x10^9cattle, but only 3x10^8 buffaloes,horses,camels,lamas and reindeer in the world. hence my focus. come to think of it..... there were only ca. 5x10^9 people around in 1992. its a good thing that animal rights doesn't include the right to vote... : ) later guy > -----Original Message----- > From: Mary Pounds [mailto:mrpounds@ucdavis.edu] > Sent: Friday, February 27, 1998 10:17 AM > To: G. F. Barbato > Cc: Applied Ethology; RebecaAuge@aol.com > Subject: RE: Domestication of animals > > Hi all, > > Please don't forget those other domestic animals: > llamas and alpacas ~6,000 years ago > camels, elephants, reindeer ??? > > all very important in the lives and cultures of their people! > > Sue Pounds, DVM From: IN%"radfordg@silyn.net" "Michael and Gabrielle Radford" 27-FEB-1998 13:04:14.57 To: IN%"stiefevl@plu.edu" "Vernon Stiefel", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Capture-Mark-Recapture microchipping? -----Original Message----- From: Vernon Stiefel To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Date: Thursday, February 26, 1998 9:33 PM Subject: Capture-Mark-Recapture >I recently decided to subscribe to this listing because of the >discussion on toe clipping of rodents for capture-mark-recapture >experiments. I teach a field methods course and am planning on doing a >C-M-R experiment with a rodent population but do not want to clip the >toes of the individuals we initially capture. Does anybody know of a >reliable marking system that doesn't involve removing the appendages of >the animal? > > Thank you for your time, > > Vern Stiefel >-- >a j D X g k j S v G >Vernon Stiefel >Department of Biology >Pacific Lutheran University >Tacoma, Washington >94447-0003 >(253) 535-8002 >stiefevl@plu.edu >a j D X g k j S v G > > From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" 27-FEB-1998 14:08:13.68 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: allelomimetic behavior George Quinlan wrote- element. Hence, it doesn't fit into an operant conditioning paradigm? Further, it's difficult to quantify. :-) Bill Campbell From: IN%"stiefevl@plu.edu" "Vernon Stiefel" 28-FEB-1998 00:47:11.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: CMR studies Thanks to everyone who responded to my inquiry about alternatives to toe clipping as a means of marking rodents for Capture-Mark -Recapture studies. Given the short duration of our study, I will probably try to remove a small patch of fur from the rodents we capture initially. Vern Stiefel -- a j D X g k j S v G Vernon Stiefel Department of Biology Pacific Lutheran University Tacoma, Washington 94447-0003 (253) 535-8002 stiefevl@plu.edu a j D X g k j S v G From: IN%"ilyanna@siu.buap.mx" "RODRIGUEZ BERMAN ILYANNA" 28-FEB-1998 17:09:10.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: GIRAFFE Someone know about giraffe behavior in zoo, please recommend me a good bock, or a good magazine where I can find something interesting. From: IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu" "Kale H. McE. Kevan" 1-MAR-1998 01:02:28.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: domestication What does it mean to be dometicated? I'm not trying to be silly, just contemplating. I suspect that cats weren't something human beings tried to domesticate, cats just found a viable niche in dwelling close to humans, the same way norway rats and house mice did. Is there a distinction of intention in the term? Do norway rats and house mice exist apart from human civilization?