From: IN%"d.lee@mcri.ac.uk" "Diane Lee" 16-FEB-2004 09:57:51.48 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone I also reply as a dog owner as opposed to a qualified ethologist and speak from experience of having a 'separation anxiety' dog (English Springer Spaniel). Our dog was a rescue and at first could not be left for even a few seconds - the shredding capabilites of a springer would do a foxhound proud! As time went on and his trust in us grew we found that we have been able to leave him for considerable amounts of time alone, particularly in cars - possibly due to the extra mental stimulation from watching passers by, we don't know. I do know he's less happy in the Land Rover - a defender model with no windows in the back. He remains unpredictable if left alone at home, but does have a dog run for the warmer months when it isn't pleasant for him to go to work with my partner. From what I know of greyhounds, they sleep a lot and despite their bursts of energy, require less exercise and are more sedentary. I would put this breed more in the category of dogs able to be left alone than any other. I'm not saying that this is ideal, but given the lives of many other less fortunate dogs, they'd have a good life!! Regardless, it's nice to know there are people who care. Diane From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 17-FEB-2004 02:05:18.41 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone It is my impression that separation anxiety exists in various degrees, graduating to a most severe form by 4-7 years old by which time they are literally signing the fence in blood and self destructing when left alone. Any dog with a disposition towards anxiety is at greater risk of developing it eg Staffies (of which I have two). Greyhounds I do not specially know about but I would wonder what sort of a life they have had previously. If it is a socially deprived life being kenneled and treated as a running machine then perhaps they will be disposed to anxiety, and hence separation anxiety. In my opinion it is OK to leave a dog alone for longer periods than 4 hrs, but not at the expense of an overall good amount of exercise, training and interaction. To prevent separation anxiety; It seems effective to delay feeding the main meal till just prior to leaving the house, so the dog becomes conditioned to look forward to your leaving. Also of course arrival and departure routines should be low key. Does providing another dog reduce separation anxiety? That depends on many factors eg does the SA dog like the other dog, can it transfer affections onto it, is it socialised to like other dogs as well as people? I generally warn clients that providing another dog is around 50% effective in reducing separation anxiety. It is a low percentage procedure, so if another dog is being considered, it should be trialed strictly "on loan". Medication does more than simply suppress anxiety!!!!!! Most times it is essential to treat and reverse permanent brain changes in stress circuitry. It is also needed for humane reasons ie highly anxious people will tell you it feels like they are literally going to die. Imagine feeling like that! Best regards, Jackie Perkins Veterinary Behaviour Consulting Australia -----Original Message----- From: Gerflannigan@aol.com [mailto:Gerflannigan@aol.com] Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 2:47 PM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Dogs home alone There is a wide range the clinical manifestations of dogs who have separation anxiety. One group of dogs show the signs within the first 1 to 1.5 hours of the day and appear calm for the rest of the day. I surmise that this is what the author was referring to and not that the dogs should be left indefinitely. Some dogs with separation anxiety show signs of distress for the entire day while others only show signs in anticipation of their owners return (perhaps an hour pre-arrival). I would remind that the student paper was written in 1997. If you are limiting your adopters to those that do not leave their dogs alone for longer than 4 hours, I personally believe that you are limiting your pool of homes needlessly. Many adult dogs are left alone for 8 or more hours without causing any problems. Gerry _________________________________________________________________ Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc., Diplomate ACVB (behavior) Carolina Veterinary Specialists Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina 336-632-0605 (Voice) 336-632-0703 (Fax) gerflannigan@aol.com From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 17-FEB-2004 05:48:40.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone --- ceann lambert wrote: > I dog sit with a Greyhound that suffers from > separation anxiety. When Tidal comes to my house, > he also comes with the five dogs from his own home > that he lives with. That does not seem to help him > at all. > There are times while Tidal is here that he and his > companions have to be shut in one of my bedrooms, > because of the coyote that I have in the house. He > is OK with this arrangement for about three hrs. > I do have to sleep with him at night. Although, I > know this is very difficult for him, I still do not > reward the inappropriate behavior of scratching at > the door to get out of the bedroom. I have worked > with him for short periods, by sitting outside of > the door and as soon as the scratching stops, I > immediatly open the door to let him out of the room. > He has learned to stand quietly at the door. > However, that is the only behavior that I have been > able to exstinguish. The crying and howling and > chewing still goes on. > When he is here, which is usually for about three > days, I try to plan my days so that I can spend as > much time with he and the other dogs as possible. > I usually just end up lying on the bed and reading. > Yes, I know that I am still rewarding some of his > behaviors, but my compassion for him wins out every > time. I have at least saved my bedroom door. > CeAnn > -- > > --------- Original Message --------- > > . > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow > Pages > http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From: IN%"vbowen@bowenconsulting.net" "Virginia Bowen" 17-FEB-2004 10:10:56.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone Jackie reminded me here of one point I would make, too. I know of people who are home all day, working from home, but whose dogs are banished to the backyard the entire day, with little or no interaction even after the work day. I would think it's better to consider quality of interaction as well as quantity in selecting a home. And I think 4 hours max separation time may well be preventing dogs from being placed in very good homes, in addition to the possibility of placement in less suitable homes like the ones mentioned above. Also, as one of those people who has had anxiety disorders which is well-controlled by medication, I can confirm Jackie's commentary on that! :-) Virginia Bowen Murrieta, CA "My treasures do not clink together nor glitter. They gleam in the sun and bray in the night." > -----Original Message----- > > In my opinion it is OK to leave a dog alone for longer > periods than 4 hrs, but not at the expense of an overall good > amount of exercise, training and interaction. To prevent > separation anxiety; It seems effective to delay feeding the > main meal till just prior to leaving the house, so the dog > becomes conditioned to look forward to your leaving. Also of > course arrival and departure routines should be low key. ........... > Medication does more than simply suppress anxiety!!!!!! Most > times it is essential to treat and reverse permanent brain > changes in stress circuitry. It is also needed for humane > reasons ie highly anxious people will tell you it feels like > they are literally going to die. Imagine feeling like that! > Best regards, Jackie Perkins Veterinary Behaviour Consulting Australia > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc., Diplomate ACVB (behavior) > Carolina Veterinary Specialists > Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina > 336-632-0605 (Voice) > 336-632-0703 (Fax) > gerflannigan@aol.com > > > > From: IN%"applied.ethology@katiestuff.com" "Katie Lukas" 17-FEB-2004 15:44:22.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone Everyone here has made excellent points. The dog I was mentioning in my previous email, Sophie, was a Weimaraner (as is my current puppy, for whom I am doing everything possible to teach her that being alone isn't particularly awful, after mine and Sophie's horrible puppyhood - happily, while she follows me around when I'm home, she is clearly not particularly anxious when I am gone), which appears to be especially predisposed to separation anxiety. Many of the greyhounds I've known have also had issues with anxiety, so they may well be a breed with a particular tendency towards SA. I think the problem with using a set number of hours (or whatever) as a criterion is that it's somewhat arbitrary and not necessarily related to any other criteria. That said, it is also probably an indicator for a more general set of criteria which presents positively. Frankly, I think your organization is likely better off by creating an adoption application that definitively questions the *actual* criteria you're probably looking for: if the family has enough time for the dog in general; if the family is willing to work to overcome any behavioral problems; if the family has experience in coping with dogs that may not have had an ideal life; if the family understands the responsibility involved in caring for a dog. Personally, I view medication as a bridging strategy more than a lifelong tool except in the most severe of cases. With clients, I advise medication for a month or two while we do the work necessary to help the dog become desensitized to the state of being alone, and even then only in fairly severe cases. The books Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson and I'll Be Home Soon: How to Prevent and Treat Separation Anxiety by Patricia McConnell, PhD., have both been invaluable to both myself and my clients in understanding, coping with, and treating separation anxiety. Symptom variation is also a wisely-brought-up point. Most, though not all, dogs with all but mild separation anxiety tend to present the resultant behaviors immediately after being left alone, with a few that present prior to departure due to anticipatory anxiety. It seems probable to me that the degree of severity of the SA could be correlated with the duration of the distress behaviors after owner departure: I have seen dogs that settle down after an hour or so, and I have seen dogs (Sophie included) who kept up the distress behaviors for the entire duration of separation. Given the variation on both the dogs' and people's parts, it would seem to me that the four-hour rule is more arbitrary than would do either dogs or families justice; the dogs in your care that have severe issues would likely be better off in a family that can spend a lot of time with them, but dogs that are less prone to the problem or present less severe symptoms could probably be safely and happily placed in a caring family that works full-time. This seems especially true, again, IMHO, since separation anxiety is, in my experience, relatively easy for an experienced person to diagnose and ascertain the severity thereof. Katie At 8:10 AM -0800 2/17/04, Virginia Bowen wrote: >Jackie reminded me here of one point I would make, too. I know of >people who are home all day, working from home, but whose dogs are >banished to the backyard the entire day, with little or no interaction >even after the work day. > >I would think it's better to consider quality of interaction as well as >quantity in selecting a home. And I think 4 hours max separation time >may well be preventing dogs from being placed in very good homes, in >addition to the possibility of placement in less suitable homes like the >ones mentioned above. > >Also, as one of those people who has had anxiety disorders which is >well-controlled by medication, I can confirm Jackie's commentary on >that! :-) > >Virginia Bowen >Murrieta, CA > >"My treasures do not clink together nor glitter. They gleam in the sun >and bray in the night." > > >> -----Original Message----- >> >> In my opinion it is OK to leave a dog alone for longer >> periods than 4 hrs, but not at the expense of an overall good >> amount of exercise, training and interaction. To prevent >> separation anxiety; It seems effective to delay feeding the >> main meal till just prior to leaving the house, so the dog >> becomes conditioned to look forward to your leaving. Also of >> course arrival and departure routines should be low key. >........... > >> Medication does more than simply suppress anxiety!!!!!! Most >> times it is essential to treat and reverse permanent brain >> changes in stress circuitry. It is also needed for humane >> reasons ie highly anxious people will tell you it feels like >> they are literally going to die. Imagine feeling like that! >> Best regards, Jackie Perkins Veterinary Behaviour Consulting Australia >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc., Diplomate ACVB (behavior) >> Carolina Veterinary Specialists >> Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina >> 336-632-0605 (Voice) >> 336-632-0703 (Fax) >> gerflannigan@aol.com >> >> >> >> -- ------------- Katie Lukas Dog Trainer & Behavioralist http://www.katiek9.com katie@katiek9.com From: IN%"rachele.fuzzati@epfl.ch" "Rachele Fuzzati" 18-FEB-2004 04:20:31.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone Hi! I speak as a dog owner and trainer, not as an ethologist. I had loads of SA problems with my dog Cleo, that I found abandoned on a bridge (somebody tried to drown her) when she was still a puppy. The choice was between putting her in a rescued dog home (where she would have probably stayed forever) or keeping her with us, even though we didn't have any previous experience with dogs and, due to a difficult family situation, we were away for most of the day. We decided to give it a try and we kept her. The first five months were a nightmare. When we were leaving, we used to close her in the bathroom, trying to leave her as little as possible to distroy. She made holes in the door (chewing and scratching) and jumped regularly in the bath tub and in the sink leaving paw prints everywhere. Then I started taking her to an agility-dog school where, just by means of toys and rewards, she could get rid of extra energy and at the same time learn discipline. Also, I got benefits from it because they taught me how to behave with the dog and how to build a good and trustful relationship. Little by little, Cleo gained self confidence, she became more obedient, she became more attached to me but in a "healthier" way (I'm the "leader" and whatever I do or say is for the good of the "pack") and eventually she understood that having me leaving for some time was not the end of the world because I was for sure going to come back. Now I'm pleased to say that she's a very happy dog who has never given us problems any more and, even if I try not to do so, she can easiliy stay alone for six-eight hours. With this I would like to say that, in the case of the racing greyhounds, the amount of time one leaves the dog alone should not be the only decision parameter. I think what should count most is if the family has already experience in dog raising and/or training and the will of going through problems and work hard, expecially at the beginning, for the sake of the dog. As far as I understood, for racing greyhouds the choice is between finding a family for the dog or put it to sleep. I think in such cases somebody who has good will (and skills) should be given the possibility to try, even though he/she is away eight hours per day. There will always be time later to put the dog down if the solution doesn't work and there is really no way out... I hope my story will help. Rachele Katie Lukas wrote: > Everyone here has made excellent points. The dog I was mentioning in > my previous email, Sophie, was a Weimaraner (as is my current puppy, > for whom I am doing everything possible to teach her that being alone > isn't particularly awful, after mine and Sophie's horrible puppyhood - > happily, while she follows me around when I'm home, she is clearly not > particularly anxious when I am gone), which appears to be especially > predisposed to separation anxiety. Many of the greyhounds I've known > have also had issues with anxiety, so they may well be a breed with a > particular tendency towards SA. > > I think the problem with using a set number of hours (or whatever) as > a criterion is that it's somewhat arbitrary and not necessarily > related to any other criteria. That said, it is also probably an > indicator for a more general set of criteria which presents > positively. Frankly, I think your organization is likely better off > by creating an adoption application that definitively questions the > *actual* criteria you're probably looking for: if the family has > enough time for the dog in general; if the family is willing to work > to overcome any behavioral problems; if the family has experience in > coping with dogs that may not have had an ideal life; if the family > understands the responsibility involved in caring for a dog. > > Personally, I view medication as a bridging strategy more than a > lifelong tool except in the most severe of cases. With clients, I > advise medication for a month or two while we do the work necessary to > help the dog become desensitized to the state of being alone, and even > then only in fairly severe cases. The books Culture Clash by Jean > Donaldson and I'll Be Home Soon: How to Prevent and Treat Separation > Anxiety by Patricia McConnell, PhD., have both been invaluable to both > myself and my clients in understanding, coping with, and treating > separation anxiety. > > Symptom variation is also a wisely-brought-up point. Most, though not > all, dogs with all but mild separation anxiety tend to present the > resultant behaviors immediately after being left alone, with a few > that present prior to departure due to anticipatory anxiety. It seems > probable to me that the degree of severity of the SA could be > correlated with the duration of the distress behaviors after owner > departure: I have seen dogs that settle down after an hour or so, and > I have seen dogs (Sophie included) who kept up the distress behaviors > for the entire duration of separation. > > Given the variation on both the dogs' and people's parts, it would > seem to me that the four-hour rule is more arbitrary than would do > either dogs or families justice; the dogs in your care that have > severe issues would likely be better off in a family that can spend a > lot of time with them, but dogs that are less prone to the problem or > present less severe symptoms could probably be safely and happily > placed in a caring family that works full-time. This seems especially > true, again, IMHO, since separation anxiety is, in my experience, > relatively easy for an experienced person to diagnose and ascertain > the severity thereof. > > Katie > > At 8:10 AM -0800 2/17/04, Virginia Bowen wrote: > >> Jackie reminded me here of one point I would make, too. I know of >> people who are home all day, working from home, but whose dogs are >> banished to the backyard the entire day, with little or no interaction >> even after the work day. >> >> I would think it's better to consider quality of interaction as well as >> quantity in selecting a home. And I think 4 hours max separation time >> may well be preventing dogs from being placed in very good homes, in >> addition to the possibility of placement in less suitable homes like the >> ones mentioned above. >> >> Also, as one of those people who has had anxiety disorders which is >> well-controlled by medication, I can confirm Jackie's commentary on >> that! :-) >> >> Virginia Bowen >> Murrieta, CA >> >> "My treasures do not clink together nor glitter. They gleam in the sun >> and bray in the night." >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> In my opinion it is OK to leave a dog alone for longer >>> periods than 4 hrs, but not at the expense of an overall good >>> amount of exercise, training and interaction. To prevent >>> separation anxiety; It seems effective to delay feeding the >>> main meal till just prior to leaving the house, so the dog >>> becomes conditioned to look forward to your leaving. Also of >>> course arrival and departure routines should be low key. >> >> ........... >> >>> Medication does more than simply suppress anxiety!!!!!! Most >>> times it is essential to treat and reverse permanent brain >>> changes in stress circuitry. It is also needed for humane >>> reasons ie highly anxious people will tell you it feels like >>> they are literally going to die. Imagine feeling like that! >>> Best regards, Jackie Perkins Veterinary Behaviour Consulting Australia >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc., Diplomate ACVB (behavior) >>> Carolina Veterinary Specialists >>> Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina >>> 336-632-0605 (Voice) >>> 336-632-0703 (Fax) >>> gerflannigan@aol.com >>> >>> >>> >>> > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rachele Fuzzati Research Assistant Programming Methods Laboratory (LAMP2), Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Lausanne, Switzerland rachele.fuzzati@epfl.ch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: IN%"n.robertson@openerg.com" "Nigel Robertson" 19-FEB-2004 13:06:53.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dogs home alone Hi everyone, Thanks for all the replies, it's been a real help. It seems it's pretty much unanimous 'informed opinion' that 1/2 day is too short as a rigid criterion given what's at stake. As usual there seems to be no research data to give a definite answer, for me the outstanding question is how much does anxiety build over the time between 4 and 8 or 9 hours, and how can you predict which dogs will be OK. However our group has already had a discussion around your comments and revised our policy to be more flexible. To start with we're going to try the most calm and confident dogs, not too young, in some good quality homes for 8 hours. Thanks again, terrific to feel all of you out there helping! Nigel From: IN%"ckolus@larimer.org" "Cheryl Kolus" 19-FEB-2004 13:27:49.01 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone Hi there. I'm new to this group and have no formal education (but lots of interest) in animal behavior. I've been volunteering in a local shelter in the behavior dept. and read a lot of books on the subject, but that's about it for right now. Anyway, I was just going to suggest to Nigel that maybe he and his group could conduct their own informal research on the adopted greyhounds - keeping detailed records of the dogs' behaviors and personality traits prior to adoption (plus any background info you have on them) and then following up with detailed surveys to the adopters during the course of, say, a year after adoption. Assuming you have the time and manpower to do so. And then, of course, sharing your results with us! Cheryl Fort Collins, Colorado >>> Nigel Robertson 02/19/04 12:06PM >>> Hi everyone, Thanks for all the replies, it's been a real help. It seems it's pretty much unanimous 'informed opinion' that 1/2 day is too short as a rigid criterion given what's at stake. As usual there seems to be no research data to give a definite answer, for me the outstanding question is how much does anxiety build over the time between 4 and 8 or 9 hours, and how can you predict which dogs will be OK. However our group has already had a discussion around your comments and revised our policy to be more flexible. To start with we're going to try the most calm and confident dogs, not too young, in some good quality homes for 8 hours. Thanks again, terrific to feel all of you out there helping! Nigel From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 19-FEB-2004 13:44:42.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: animal transportation and accidents Two rather different accidents brought to my attention during the last 6 = months have made me concerned about how authorities and transporters are = prepared to deal with traffic accidents involving animals. The first = case, an accident with a lorry loaded with slaughter pigs on the way to = the abattoir in Portugal, was reported to me by friends who had seen it = on television and were very upset by the sight of badly injured pigs and = the apparent lack (or delay) of any organised action to euthanise the = animals. In the second case, in the beginning of this week two ships = collided off the Swedish coast. After rescuing the human passengers, one = of the ship was towed to the nearest seaport still with a lorry with 7 = horses on board. As it happened, 4 of these belonged to one of the = members of the national showjumping team, so their fate received a lot = of media attention. While the human passengers were rescued off the ship = right away, it took more than 24 hours before they got the horses out. = Which make me realise that had the accident been worse than it was, the = horses had gone down with the ship. I realise it is probably more = difficult to rescue horses than people in this situation. I also realise = and don't question the priority humans give to humans in any of these = cases. But I would like to know if any of you know about "catastrophy = measures" in any place that do take animals into account. Best wishes Anna Olsson Anna Olsson Postdoctoral research fellow Animal Behaviour & Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Faz +351 22 609 9157 From: IN%"Gerflannigan@aol.com" 19-FEB-2004 13:48:22.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone In a message dated 2/19/2004 1:08:41 PM Central Standard Time,=20 n.robertson@openerg.com writes: > As usual there seems to be no research > data to give a definite answer, for me the outstanding question is how mu= ch > does anxiety build over the time between 4 and 8 or 9 hours, and how can=20 you > predict which dogs will be OK.=20 Actually, there is a large amount of research on separation anxiety. You=20 might try: Behaviour patterns and time course of activity in dogs with separation=20 problems=20 J=F8rgen Damkjer Lunda, * and Mads Chr. J=F8rgensen Applied Animal Behaviour Science=20 Volume 63, Issue 3 , 23 April 1999, Pages 219-236=20 which watched the videotapes of 20 dogs with separation anxiety. Not a grea= t=20 sample size but a start. Gerry _________________________________________________________________ Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc., DACVB Carolina Veterinary Specialists Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina 336-632-0605 (Voice) 336-632-0703 (Fax) gerflannigan@aol.com From: IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com" 19-FEB-2004 14:35:15.36 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: RE: animal transportation and accidents Hi Anna Here in the U.K. we have similar transport disasters from time to time and the emergency services (police, fire and rescue) commonly call on local private veterinarians for help, who may or may not be suitably and quickly equipped and available. Local officers of animal charities, such as the RSPCA, may also be called on, with again the same limitations. Sometimes the people involved have some useful personal experience to draw on, but on the whole there is a lack of training of emergency personnel and veterinary graduates for this type of situation. An article I wrote on the U.S. national arrangements for livestock disasters may be of some interest: www.aasv.org/news/story.php?id=596 Michael Meredith www.sunflower-health.com From: IN%"n.robertson@openerg.com" "Nigel Robertson" 19-FEB-2004 17:32:04.99 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone Hi Cheryl Thanks, well, I have that in mind as a last resort! However I wouldn't want to slave away then find someone else had already done it!! I have a couple of time-lapse video recorders so if we end up still uncertain I might try those. However I'm a lot more confident after all the feedback I've been getting here. Nigel Nottingham England -----Original Message----- From: Cheryl Kolus [mailto:ckolus@larimer.org] Sent: 19 February 2004 19:27 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Dogs home alone Hi there. I'm new to this group and have no formal education (but lots of interest) in animal behavior. I've been volunteering in a local shelter in the behavior dept. and read a lot of books on the subject, but that's about it for right now. Anyway, I was just going to suggest to Nigel that maybe he and his group could conduct their own informal research on the adopted greyhounds - keeping detailed records of the dogs' behaviors and personality traits prior to adoption (plus any background info you have on them) and then following up with detailed surveys to the adopters during the course of, say, a year after adoption. Assuming you have the time and manpower to do so. And then, of course, sharing your results with us! Cheryl Fort Collins, Colorado >>> Nigel Robertson 02/19/04 12:06PM >>> Hi everyone, Thanks for all the replies, it's been a real help. It seems it's pretty much unanimous 'informed opinion' that 1/2 day is too short as a rigid criterion given what's at stake. As usual there seems to be no research data to give a definite answer, for me the outstanding question is how much does anxiety build over the time between 4 and 8 or 9 hours, and how can you predict which dogs will be OK. However our group has already had a discussion around your comments and revised our policy to be more flexible. To start with we're going to try the most calm and confident dogs, not too young, in some good quality homes for 8 hours. Thanks again, terrific to feel all of you out there helping! Nigel From: IN%"mara@animalbehaviourconsulting.com.au" "Mara Roberts" 19-FEB-2004 18:23:59.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fw: Dogs home alone ----- Original Message ----- From: Mara Roberts To: Nigel Robertson Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 7:46 AM Subject: Re: Dogs home alone Hi Nigel Just a quick comment. Typically, separation anxiety related behaviours occur with 5-30 minutes of the owner's departure. Many dogs exhibit anxious behaviour by picking up on departure cues before departure actually occurs. (Horwitz DF. In Horwitz D, Mills D & Heath S eds. BSAVA Manual of Canine and Feline Behavioural Medicine:2002; Gloucester;BSAVA, pp154-163). Good luck Mara Roberts Ba. App. Psych. ----- Original Message ----- From: Nigel Robertson To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 6:06 AM Subject: Dogs home alone Hi everyone, Thanks for all the replies, it's been a real help. It seems it's pretty much unanimous 'informed opinion' that 1/2 day is too short as a rigid criterion given what's at stake. As usual there seems to be no research data to give a definite answer, for me the outstanding question is how much does anxiety build over the time between 4 and 8 or 9 hours, and how can you predict which dogs will be OK. However our group has already had a discussion around your comments and revised our policy to be more flexible. To start with we're going to try the most calm and confident dogs, not too young, in some good quality homes for 8 hours. Thanks again, terrific to feel all of you out there helping! Nigel From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 21-FEB-2004 03:04:21.08 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone Nigel Robertson wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I'm a volunteer with a charity which finds homes for Greyhounds as pets when > they finish racing, in England. (You're probably aware that thousands of > Greyhounds are put to sleep every year when they retire.) > > I run our website (www.rgtnottingham.org.uk) and in researching a page on > separation anxiety I found your excellent page > http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/behaviourproblems/anxiety.html. > I was struck by the advice that " Once the dog can be left alone for 1.5 > hours, it can usually be left all day". Currently we only accept homes that > will limit the time they are left home alone to 1/2 day, this means we are > losing some homes of course, where both partners work full time. > > Could I ask for comments or more information about this? Every home refused > is a dog put to sleep so we're very keen to be doing the right thing. Greyhound puppies (up to 2 or 3 years old, sometimes) are hell on wheels, full of energy, and can be incredibly "creative" if left alone. Adults are much quieter. Retired ex-racers are usually pretty mellow. Greyhounds need, or at least benefit from, bouts of intense exercise (racing or coursing), but the rest of the time they are laid back and content to relax. I don't know about British practice but in this country (USA) most retired Greyhounds come from a kennel situation where they are not used to continuous human contact or attention. They are however accustomed to living in groups. I think the corollary is they won't much mind being left alone so long as other dogs are about. I am anyway reluctant to place a sighthound (even a Saluki puppy) in a household with no other sighthounds, unless the prospective owners are already experienced sighthound folks. You might want to consider placing your ex-racers two at a time! . Any sighthound is easier to live with if it has an outlet for its natural instincts, especially the instinct to chase things. Provided it is physically sound (many ex-racers retire because of racing injuries which may not be obvious to a non-racing-specialist veterinarian) any Greyhound will benefit both physically and mentally from activities such as lure coursing, if available. I know some very experienced Greyhound re-homing people in this country. If you would like to communicate with them directly, I would be happy to provide contacts via private E-mail. They are not behavioral science professionals and AFAIK none of them are subscribers to this list. They do however collectively have vast experience in re-homing retired racing Greyhounds. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"glynnis@starband.net" "glynnis" 21-FEB-2004 03:19:22.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: Research on Time for Placing Puppies in Homes A national dog breed group is currently discussing changes in its breeder's code of ethics, including a requirement that puppies not be placed in homes prior to 12 weeks of age. The current code is that placements occur at not less than 8 weeks. The debate appears to be centered on opinions of breeders rather than any actual research on this topic. Can anyone point me to research that would indicate what the ideal time would be to release puppies (as pets rather than show prospects or working dogs) to new homes? The only reference I've been able to find is the book "The New Knowledge of Dog Behavior (1963)" by Clarence Pfaffenberger, who later went on to found Guide Dogs for the Blind. Thanks in advance for any help. Glynnis Jones Northern California From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 21-FEB-2004 05:29:44.20 To: IN%"glynnis@starband.net" "glynnis", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: RE: Research on Time for Placing Puppies in Homes Dear Glynnis, My MSc dissertation was on this subject. There are the references for two related papers. Appleby, D. L., Bradshaw J.W.S., Casey R.A.(2002) Relationship between aggressive and avoidance behaviour by dogs and their experience in the first six months of life, Veterinary Record, 150, 434-438. Pluijmakers J., Appleby D. L. and Bradshaw J.W.S. (2003) Sensitive Periods in the Development of Behavioural Organization in the Dog and the Role of Emotional Homeostasis, Proceedings of the 4th International Veterinary Behavioural Meeting, No: 32, 18th-20th August 2003, Caloundra, Australia, 119-126 I hope this helps Best wishes, David ---------------------------------------- Name: David Appleby MSc CCAB Address: The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper Street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB. England. Phone: +44(0)1386 750615 Fax: +44(0)1386 750743 E-mail: appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: glynnis [mailto:glynnis@starband.net] Sent: 21 February 2004 09:22 To: Applied Ethology List Subject: Research on Time for Placing Puppies in Homes A national dog breed group is currently discussing changes in its breeder's code of ethics, including a requirement that puppies not be placed in homes prior to 12 weeks of age. The current code is that placements occur at not less than 8 weeks. The debate appears to be centered on opinions of breeders rather than any actual research on this topic. Can anyone point me to research that would indicate what the ideal time would be to release puppies (as pets rather than show prospects or working dogs) to new homes? The only reference I've been able to find is the book "The New Knowledge of Dog Behavior (1963)" by Clarence Pfaffenberger, who later went on to found Guide Dogs for the Blind. Thanks in advance for any help. Glynnis Jones Northern California From: IN%"derek.haley@usask.ca" 21-FEB-2004 09:52:04.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: animal transportation and accidents Hello Anna, << I would like to know if any of you know about "catastrophy measures" in any place that do take animals into account. >> In 1998 the Alberta Farm Animal Care Association (AFAC) here in Canada contracted the development of Livestock Emergency Response Course. Accidents during transportation make-up a majority of the content, although I believe the course also helps people put together general disaster response plans. By request, the course is often given to livestock transport companies and to local fire departments and police services, who are called in those kinds of situations. Two issues discussed are humane euthanasia and the interior design and layout of the livestock transports. With the latter subject, whether a transport liner rolls over on one side versus the other, will completely change how you try to get the animals out. You can find more information here: http://www.afac.ab.ca/courses/LERC/htm The person who developed this course and who delivers it is Jennifer Woods and her e-mail address is listed at the URL above. Derek Ponoka, Alberta, Canada From: IN%"n.robertson@openerg.com" "Nigel Robertson" 22-FEB-2004 04:14:50.64 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone I didn't mean to sound as though we lack experience. A trip around Greyhound websites shows how expert opinion is often confidently held but pretty variable! I just want to get as close as I can to an "informed basis" for our policy on how long dogs can be left alone, bearing in mind that although it's quite easy to define an ideal home, what we unfortunately have to do is define the line beyond which it's better to have a dog put to sleep. I think the ideal home thing is a tempting trap for all rehomers, because we all want the best for the dogs we know. For example, for us it wouldn't do to accept only homes which already have a sighthound, there are at least 10,000 Greyhounds a year needing homes in the UK and so to save them we need to spread Greyhounds into about 2% of dog-owning households. This means deliberately aiming to convert people from buying a large breed puppy like a Labrador from a puppy farm to adopting a retired Greyhound. From all the replies that have come in (thanks everyone!) it does seem that 4 hours was too limiting as a strict criterion, and we're going to try longer periods. There are reasons for and against Greyhounds being especially prone to separation anxiety, but individual dogs are so different you can't turn that into policy. Homing dogs in pairs is great if there's a first dog already settled and at least one of them has a confident personality. But in the past we've had some *complete* nightmares with two dogs going into a new home together - they're twice as likely to get started, keep going twice as long, and do four times the damage!! The RSPCA (the major animal and rehoming charity in the UK) is against people who work all day keeping dogs, and we're fairly sure that even with training quite a large proportion of Greyhounds will be, at least, lonely and anxious being left for 8 hours, so we're going to try to pick the most calm and confident dogs, around 4-6 years old, with the most committed homes, emphasise the training, and keep a close eye on them. If we're not sure we may install some video monitoring. Our training document (given to intending adopters) resulting from this consultation is www.rgtnottingham.org.uk/owners/sa.htm. If anyone has any suggestions to improve it further that would be great, also of course if you want to copy it you're welcome. If you copy it then improve it please keep me in touch. Thanks again everyone. Nigel Nottingham Retired Greyhound Trust UK -----Original Message----- From: John Burchard [mailto:saluqi@ix.netcom.com] Sent: 21 February 2004 00:36 To: Applied ethology list Subject: Re: Dogs home alone Nigel Robertson wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I'm a volunteer with a charity which finds homes for Greyhounds as pets when > they finish racing, in England. (You're probably aware that thousands of > Greyhounds are put to sleep every year when they retire.) > > I run our website (www.rgtnottingham.org.uk) and in researching a page on > separation anxiety I found your excellent page > http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/behaviourproblems/anxiety. html. > I was struck by the advice that " Once the dog can be left alone for 1.5 > hours, it can usually be left all day". Currently we only accept homes that > will limit the time they are left home alone to 1/2 day, this means we are > losing some homes of course, where both partners work full time. > > Could I ask for comments or more information about this? Every home refused > is a dog put to sleep so we're very keen to be doing the right thing. Greyhound puppies (up to 2 or 3 years old, sometimes) are hell on wheels, full of energy, and can be incredibly "creative" if left alone. Adults are much quieter. Retired ex-racers are usually pretty mellow. Greyhounds need, or at least benefit from, bouts of intense exercise (racing or coursing), but the rest of the time they are laid back and content to relax. I don't know about British practice but in this country (USA) most retired Greyhounds come from a kennel situation where they are not used to continuous human contact or attention. They are however accustomed to living in groups. I think the corollary is they won't much mind being left alone so long as other dogs are about. I am anyway reluctant to place a sighthound (even a Saluki puppy) in a household with no other sighthounds, unless the prospective owners are already experienced sighthound folks. You might want to consider placing your ex-racers two at a time! . Any sighthound is easier to live with if it has an outlet for its natural instincts, especially the instinct to chase things. Provided it is physically sound (many ex-racers retire because of racing injuries which may not be obvious to a non-racing-specialist veterinarian) any Greyhound will benefit both physically and mentally from activities such as lure coursing, if available. I know some very experienced Greyhound re-homing people in this country. If you would like to communicate with them directly, I would be happy to provide contacts via private E-mail. They are not behavioral science professionals and AFAIK none of them are subscribers to this list. They do however collectively have vast experience in re-homing retired racing Greyhounds. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"derek.haley@usask.ca" 22-FEB-2004 12:48:46.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fwd: Horsebox loading problem - intermittentent Dear All, I received the message below via the Applied Ethology Home Page and thought maybe one of you could help. Please be sure to send replies to . Derek ----- Forwarded message from gail burfitt ----- Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:57:29 +0000 From: gail burfitt Reply-To: gail burfitt Subject: Horsebox loading problem - intermittentent To: derek.haley@usask.ca Dear Derek I live in the UK, and own two horses, an American Quarterhorse, and a 17.2hh X Dutchwarmblood/Clydesdale. We have had a horse box especially made for the big chap, which is as low as can be, very light and airy. On occasions he will load OK, and on others he will just plant himself at the bottom of the ramp and will not budge, not for anything. We have tried everything, food, brooms, water, chastising, encouraging, etc, he gets a particular look on his face and will not budge, however, it seems, once the attention has gone from him then he will go up> I am at my wits end, as yesterday we got stranded and it took us 5 hours to eventually get him on. I would be grateful for any advice. Thanking you in advance. Gail Burfitt From: IN%"n.robertson@openerg.com" "Nigel Robertson" 22-FEB-2004 19:01:24.09 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology", IN%"zentrainer@hotmail.com" "Zen Trainer" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone Hi Tracy Stopping racing is not a goal of the Retired Greyhound Trust, which is part of the UK industry in fact. There are other rescues which are anti-racing. Within our branch there is a range of opinion from anti- to pro- racing, we settle for saving as many as we can and trying to change the culture of the industry so that they're recognised as a pet breed and it becomes unacceptable to just put them to sleep. If you are trying to stop racing then I personally am all for you, but in this particular role I have to coexist with trainers and racing owners in order to achieve the more modest target I've set myself. Sadly there are trainers who if they think you're anti-racing will put a dog down rather than let you home it for nothing. Part of my personal rationale is that if we reach a critical mass of say 50% of dogs homed it will become unacceptable to put the other 50% to sleep, and that will reinforce the anti-racing arguments about life after racing, and about quality of life while racing, and about pups destroyed in breeding. Alabamba (I think it was) recently came close to having Greyhounds classed as farm stock so that they could be killed by anyone not a vet, so there's a big image battle to win. Regards Nigel -----Original Message----- From: Zen Trainer [mailto:zentrainer@hotmail.com] Sent: 22 February 2004 18:21 To: Nigel Robertson Subject: Re: Dogs home alone Nigel, I have been curious about this for some time. In what way do you feel Greyhound Rescue helps to stop the racing industry? Or is that a goal of greyhound rescuers at all? Thanks! Tracy B Ann Companion Animal Support Services Nashville, TN www.casstrainer.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Nigel Robertson Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 5:17 AM To: Applied-ethology Subject: RE: Dogs home alone I didn't mean to sound as though we lack experience. A trip around Greyhound websites shows how expert opinion is often confidently held but pretty variable! I just want to get as close as I can to an "informed basis" for our policy on how long dogs can be left alone, bearing in mind that although it's quite easy to define an ideal home, what we unfortunately have to do is define the line beyond which it's better to have a dog put to sleep. I think the ideal home thing is a tempting trap for all rehomers, because we all want the best for the dogs we know. For example, for us it wouldn't do to accept only homes which already have a sighthound, there are at least 10,000 Greyhounds a year needing homes in the UK and so to save them we need to spread Greyhounds into about 2% of dog-owning households. This means deliberately aiming to convert people from buying a large breed puppy like a Labrador from a puppy farm to adopting a retired Greyhound. From all the replies that have come in (thanks everyone!) it does seem that 4 hours was too limiting as a strict criterion, and we're going to try longer periods. There are reasons for and against Greyhounds being especially prone to separation anxiety, but individual dogs are so different you can't turn that into policy. Homing dogs in pairs is great if there's a first dog already settled and at least one of them has a confident personality. But in the past we've had some *complete* nightmares with two dogs going into a new home together - they're twice as likely to get started, keep going twice as long, and do four times the damage!! The RSPCA (the major animal and rehoming charity in the UK) is against people who work all day keeping dogs, and we're fairly sure that even with training quite a large proportion of Greyhounds will be, at least, lonely and anxious being left for 8 hours, so we're going to try to pick the most calm and confident dogs, around 4-6 years old, with the most committed homes, emphasise the training, and keep a close eye on them. If we're not sure we may install some video monitoring. Our training document (given to intending adopters) resulting from this consultation is www.rgtnottingham.org.uk/owners/sa.htm. If anyone has any suggestions to improve it further that would be great, also of course if you want to copy it you're welcome. If you copy it then improve it please keep me in touch. Thanks again everyone. Nigel Nottingham Retired Greyhound Trust UK -----Original Message----- From: John Burchard [mailto:saluqi@ix.netcom.com] Sent: 21 February 2004 00:36 To: Applied ethology list Subject: Re: Dogs home alone Nigel Robertson wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I'm a volunteer with a charity which finds homes for Greyhounds as pets when > they finish racing, in England. (You're probably aware that thousands of > Greyhounds are put to sleep every year when they retire.) > > I run our website (www.rgtnottingham.org.uk) and in researching a page on > separation anxiety I found your excellent page > http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/behaviourproblems/anxiety. html. > I was struck by the advice that " Once the dog can be left alone for 1.5 > hours, it can usually be left all day". Currently we only accept homes that > will limit the time they are left home alone to 1/2 day, this means we are > losing some homes of course, where both partners work full time. > > Could I ask for comments or more information about this? Every home refused > is a dog put to sleep so we're very keen to be doing the right thing. Greyhound puppies (up to 2 or 3 years old, sometimes) are hell on wheels, full of energy, and can be incredibly "creative" if left alone. Adults are much quieter. Retired ex-racers are usually pretty mellow. Greyhounds need, or at least benefit from, bouts of intense exercise (racing or coursing), but the rest of the time they are laid back and content to relax. I don't know about British practice but in this country (USA) most retired Greyhounds come from a kennel situation where they are not used to continuous human contact or attention. They are however accustomed to living in groups. I think the corollary is they won't much mind being left alone so long as other dogs are about. I am anyway reluctant to place a sighthound (even a Saluki puppy) in a household with no other sighthounds, unless the prospective owners are already experienced sighthound folks. You might want to consider placing your ex-racers two at a time! . Any sighthound is easier to live with if it has an outlet for its natural instincts, especially the instinct to chase things. Provided it is physically sound (many ex-racers retire because of racing injuries which may not be obvious to a non-racing-specialist veterinarian) any Greyhound will benefit both physically and mentally from activities such as lure coursing, if available. I know some very experienced Greyhound re-homing people in this country. If you would like to communicate with them directly, I would be happy to provide contacts via private E-mail. They are not behavioral science professionals and AFAIK none of them are subscribers to this list. They do however collectively have vast experience in re-homing retired racing Greyhounds. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From: IN%"Stefan.Gunnarsson@hmh.slu.se" "Stefan Gunnarsson" 23-FEB-2004 01:23:50.93 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: 9th Crane Seminar in Skara, Sweden 2004, registration Hello, I just want to remind you about The 9th Crane Seminar: The concept of health. -An analysis of its application to humans and animals. 1-5 April 2004, Skara, Sweden Main lecturers: Bill Fulford, UK David Fraser, Canada Thomas Blaha, Germany Please click the home page of the Seminar for registration http://www.hmh.slu.se/crane/crane.htm Yours sincerely, Stefan Gunnarsson Animal Environment and Health (Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences) SKARA From: IN%"Gerflannigan@aol.com" 23-FEB-2004 07:57:00.53 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Research on Time for Placing Puppies in Homes The 12 week recommendation most likely comes out of James Serpell's book: The Domestic Dog: its evolution, behavior... which relays a study by Slabbert and Risa (J. South African Veterinary Association 64:4-8, 1993). The authors separated puppies from the mother at 6 weeks and compared to those separated at 12 weeks. Gerry _________________________________________________________________ Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc., DACVB Carolina Veterinary Specialists Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina 336-632-0605 (Voice) 336-632-0703 (Fax) gerflannigan@aol.com From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 23-FEB-2004 10:09:00.57 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Research on Time for Placing Puppies in Homes Slabbert and Rasa (1993) concluded that separation from the dam at six weeks does not improve socialisation with humans, when compared to identical exposure to humans but remaining with the dam until 12 weeks. However socialisation was specific to the handlers involved in the research. The purpose of removing puppies from the dam as early as possible is to ensure the maximum opportunity for exposure to a broad range of novel stimuli. The researchers did not test this since both groups of puppies were housed and tested in identical circumstances until 12 weeks. They were able to conclude that there was a greater risk to health and of mortality in the group separated from the dam at six weeks. This has been shown in other experiments and may be associated with inadequate parasympathetic arousal (Fox 1978). Slabbert and Rasa did not consider the possibility that for the rehomed puppy significant periods of exposure to human owners may be sufficient substitute for ongoing maternal presence. This was not tested for in the 2 hour x day exposure the puppies were provided within their experimental design. FOX, M. (1978) The Dog; Its Domestication and Behaviour. Garland, S. & P.M. Press, New York SLABBERT, J. M., & RASA, O. A. E. (1993) The effect of early separation from the mother on pups in bonding to humans and pup health. Journal of the South African Veterinary Association 64, No 1, 4-8 Best wishes, David ---------------------------------------- Name: David Appleby MSc CCAB Address: The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper Street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB. England. Phone: +44(0)1386 750615 Fax: +44(0)1386 750743 E-mail: appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Gerflannigan@aol.com [mailto:Gerflannigan@aol.com] Sent: 23 February 2004 13:57 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Research on Time for Placing Puppies in Homes The 12 week recommendation most likely comes out of James Serpell's book: The Domestic Dog: its evolution, behavior... which relays a study by Slabbert and Risa (J. South African Veterinary Association 64:4-8, 1993). The authors separated puppies from the mother at 6 weeks and compared to those separated at 12 weeks. Gerry _________________________________________________________________ Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc., DACVB Carolina Veterinary Specialists Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina 336-632-0605 (Voice) 336-632-0703 (Fax) gerflannigan@aol.com From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 25-FEB-2004 00:51:09.12 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone A thought comes to mind about selectively sending retired greyhounds out = to homes where there people work full-time; If you hand-pick dogs which you deem to be confident, you are biasing your plan and your results may not = be trustworthy. For example, some dogs with separation anxiety are lovely = with people, even confident. If these were selected to go to these homes on trial, you may be setting them up to fail. To give the new screening procedure a fair trial, in my opinion you would be better off to = randomly send dogs to these working families rather than risk biasing the = outcomes.=20 Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Nigel Robertson [mailto:n.robertson@openerg.com]=20 Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 11:00 AM To: Applied-ethology; Zen Trainer Subject: RE: Dogs home alone Hi Tracy =A0 Stopping racing is not=A0a goal of the Retired Greyhound Trust, which is = part of the UK industry in fact.=A0 There are other rescues which are = anti-racing.=A0 Within our branch there is a range of opinion from anti- to pro- racing, = we settle for saving as many as we can and trying to change the culture of = the industry so that they're recognised as a pet breed and it becomes unacceptable to just put them to sleep.=A0=20 =A0 If you are trying to stop racing then I personally am all for you, but = in this particular role I have to coexist with trainers and racing owners = in order to achieve the more modest target I've set myself.=A0 Sadly there = are trainers who if they think you're anti-racing will put a dog down rather than let you home it for nothing.=A0 =A0 Part of my personal=A0rationale is that if we reach a critical mass of = say 50% of dogs homed it will become unacceptable to put the other 50% to sleep, = and that will reinforce the anti-racing arguments about life after racing, = and about quality of life while racing, and about pups destroyed in = breeding.=A0 Alabamba (I think it was) recently came close to having Greyhounds = classed as farm stock so that they could be killed by anyone not a vet, so = there's a big image battle to win. =A0 Regards Nigel =A0 =A0 -----Original Message----- From: Zen Trainer [mailto:zentrainer@hotmail.com] Sent: 22 February 2004 18:21 To: Nigel Robertson Subject: Re: Dogs home alone Nigel, =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have been curious about=A0this for some time. In = what way do you feel Greyhound Rescue helps to stop the racing industry? Or is that a = goal of greyhound rescuers at all? Thanks! Tracy B Ann Companion Animal Support Services Nashville, TN www.casstrainer.com=A0 =A0 ----- Original Message ----- From: Nigel Robertson Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 5:17 AM To: Applied-ethology Subject: RE: Dogs home alone =A0 I didn't mean to sound as though we lack experience.=A0 A trip around Greyhound websites shows how expert opinion is often confidently held = but pretty variable!=A0 I just want to get as close as I can to an "informed basis" for our policy on how long dogs can be left alone, bearing in = mind that although it's quite easy to define an ideal home, what we = unfortunately have to do is define the line beyond which it's better to have a dog put = to sleep.=A0 I think the ideal home thing is a tempting trap for all = rehomers, because we all want the best for the dogs we know. For example, for us it wouldn't do to accept only homes which already = have a sighthound, there are at least 10,000 Greyhounds a year needing homes in = the UK and so to save them we need to spread Greyhounds into about 2% of dog-owning households. This means deliberately aiming to convert people = from buying a large breed puppy like a Labrador from a puppy farm to adopting = a retired Greyhound. From all the replies that have come in (thanks everyone!) it does seem = that 4 hours was too limiting as a strict criterion, and we're going to try longer periods.=A0 There are reasons for and against Greyhounds being especially prone to separation anxiety, but individual dogs are so = different you can't turn that into policy.=A0 Homing dogs in pairs is great if = there's a first dog already settled and at least one of them has a confident personality.=A0 But in the past we've had some *complete* nightmares = with two dogs going into a new home together - they're twice as likely to get started, keep going twice as long, and do four times the damage!! The RSPCA (the major animal and rehoming charity in the UK) is against people who work all day keeping dogs, and we're fairly sure that even = with training quite a large proportion of Greyhounds will be, at least, = lonely and anxious being left for 8 hours, so we're going to try to pick the = most calm and confident dogs, around 4-6 years old, with the most committed homes, emphasise the training, and keep a close eye on them.=A0 If we're = not sure we may install some video monitoring. Our training document (given to intending adopters) resulting from this consultation is www.rgtnottingham.org.uk/owners/sa.htm.=A0 If anyone has = any suggestions to improve it further that would be great, also of course if = you want to copy it you're welcome.=A0 If you copy it then improve it please = keep me in touch. Thanks again everyone. Nigel Nottingham Retired Greyhound Trust UK -----Original Message----- From: John Burchard [mailto:saluqi@ix.netcom.com] Sent: 21 February 2004 00:36 To: Applied ethology list Subject: Re: Dogs home alone Nigel Robertson wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I'm a volunteer with a charity which finds homes for Greyhounds as = pets when > they finish racing, in England.=A0 (You're probably aware that = thousands of > Greyhounds are put to sleep every year when they retire.) > > I run our website (www.rgtnottingham.org.uk) and in researching a page = on > separation anxiety I found your excellent page > http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/behaviourproblems/anxie= ty. html. > I was struck by the advice that " Once the dog can be left alone for = 1.5 > hours, it can usually be left all day".=A0 Currently we only accept = homes that > will limit the time they are left home alone to 1/2 day, this means we = are > losing some homes of course, where both partners work full time. > > Could I ask for comments or more information about this?=A0 Every home refused > is a dog put to sleep so we're very keen to be doing the right thing. Greyhound puppies (up to 2 or 3 years old, sometimes) are hell on = wheels, full of energy, and can be incredibly "creative" if left alone.=A0 Adults are = much quieter.=A0 Retired ex-racers are usually pretty mellow.=A0 Greyhounds = need, or at least benefit from, bouts of intense exercise (racing or coursing), but = the rest of the time they are laid back and content to relax. I don't know about British practice but in this country (USA) most = retired Greyhounds come from a kennel situation where they are not used to continuous human contact or attention.=A0 They are however accustomed to living in groups.=A0 I think the corollary is they won't much mind being left alone so long as other dogs are about.=A0 I am anyway reluctant to place a sighthound (even a = Saluki puppy) in a household with no other sighthounds, unless the prospective owners are already experienced sighthound folks.=A0 You might want to consider placing your ex-racers two at a time! . Any sighthound is easier to live with if it has an outlet for its = natural instincts, especially the instinct to chase things.=A0 Provided it is physically sound (many ex-racers retire because of racing injuries which may not be obvious to a non-racing-specialist veterinarian) any Greyhound will benefit both physically and mentally from activities such as lure coursing, if = available. I know some very experienced Greyhound re-homing people in this = country.=A0 If you would like to communicate with them directly, I would be happy to = provide contacts via private E-mail.=A0 They are not behavioral science = professionals and AFAIK none of them are subscribers to this list.=A0 They do however collectively have vast experience in re-homing retired racing Greyhounds. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : = http://explorer.msn.com From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 27-FEB-2004 00:36:23.57 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone I honestly do not think you can predict which ones are prone to SA. I = think a random approach is best. Just try to match people/families with dogs = where they like each other ie the dogs like the people and vice verce. Breed = may be the best predictor of SA where Staffies, Boxers are overrepresented = (what other breeds everyone?). Breed predisposition is irrelevant in your case because they are all greyhounds, that is unless greyhounds are a = susceptible breed. If I had to guess, I would say that any kennel raised dog would = be rather good at being without people for long periods of time. A = conspecific (a doggy friend) may be the best predictor of quality of life for = home-alone dogs. Kennel raised dogs usually like other dogs, that is if they have = been well socialised to other dogs which most have.=20 A na=EFve question: do greyhounds have to wear a muzzle whenever in = public? Do they pose any additional risk (ie over that of any other dog) to small = pets, like cats, small dogs etc? Ps you need to manually add "applied ethology discussion list" in the address, to send out a general message. Regards, Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Nigel Robertson [mailto:n.robertson@openerg.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 7:47 AM To: Geiger Subject: RE: Dogs home alone Hi Jackie That's a very interesting thought. My starting point was that we know = that some substantial proportion of dogs won't be OK left for 8 hours, and so = I wasn't really seeing it as a pure experiment. I suppose it depends how = well we think we can predict for individual dogs at the moment. If we can't predict very well then we should experiment properly as you say - a = random sample, videoing and pulling dogs out of their new homes as soon as we = see that the formal training hasn't been enough. If we can predict to some extent then we can make a start and refine our knowledge as we gain experience. That's OK as long as we don't start off excluding dogs who would in fact be OK (because we would never find out). Can I ask everyone for views and suggestions about how to identify dogs suitable for being home alone for 8 hours? We just get to know them in kennels (in pairs, not crated) and on walks on a lead. Thanks. Nigel Robertson Retired Greyhound Trust Nottingham England -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: 25 February 2004 06:50 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: Dogs home alone A thought comes to mind about selectively sending retired greyhounds out = to homes where there people work full-time; If you hand-pick dogs which you deem to be confident, you are biasing your plan and your results may not = be trustworthy. For example, some dogs with separation anxiety are lovely = with people, even confident. If these were selected to go to these homes on trial, you may be setting them up to fail. To give the new screening procedure a fair trial, in my opinion you would be better off to = randomly send dogs to these working families rather than risk biasing the = outcomes. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Nigel Robertson [mailto:n.robertson@openerg.com] Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 11:00 AM To: Applied-ethology; Zen Trainer Subject: RE: Dogs home alone Hi Tracy =A0 Stopping racing is not=A0a goal of the Retired Greyhound Trust, which is = part of the UK industry in fact.=A0 There are other rescues which are = anti-racing.=A0 Within our branch there is a range of opinion from anti- to pro- racing, = we settle for saving as many as we can and trying to change the culture of = the industry so that they're recognised as a pet breed and it becomes unacceptable to just put them to sleep.=A0 =A0 If you are trying to stop racing then I personally am all for you, but = in this particular role I have to coexist with trainers and racing owners = in order to achieve the more modest target I've set myself.=A0 Sadly there = are trainers who if they think you're anti-racing will put a dog down rather than let you home it for nothing.=A0 =A0 Part of my personal=A0rationale is that if we reach a critical mass of = say 50% of dogs homed it will become unacceptable to put the other 50% to sleep, = and that will reinforce the anti-racing arguments about life after racing, = and about quality of life while racing, and about pups destroyed in = breeding.=A0 Alabamba (I think it was) recently came close to having Greyhounds = classed as farm stock so that they could be killed by anyone not a vet, so = there's a big image battle to win. =A0 Regards Nigel =A0 =A0 -----Original Message----- From: Zen Trainer [mailto:zentrainer@hotmail.com] Sent: 22 February 2004 18:21 To: Nigel Robertson Subject: Re: Dogs home alone Nigel, =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have been curious about=A0this for some time. In = what way do you feel Greyhound Rescue helps to stop the racing industry? Or is that a = goal of greyhound rescuers at all? Thanks! Tracy B Ann Companion Animal Support Services Nashville, TN www.casstrainer.com=A0 =A0 ----- Original Message ----- From: Nigel Robertson Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 5:17 AM To: Applied-ethology Subject: RE: Dogs home alone =A0 I didn't mean to sound as though we lack experience.=A0 A trip around Greyhound websites shows how expert opinion is often confidently held = but pretty variable!=A0 I just want to get as close as I can to an "informed basis" for our policy on how long dogs can be left alone, bearing in = mind that although it's quite easy to define an ideal home, what we = unfortunately have to do is define the line beyond which it's better to have a dog put = to sleep.=A0 I think the ideal home thing is a tempting trap for all = rehomers, because we all want the best for the dogs we know. For example, for us it wouldn't do to accept only homes which already = have a sighthound, there are at least 10,000 Greyhounds a year needing homes in = the UK and so to save them we need to spread Greyhounds into about 2% of dog-owning households. This means deliberately aiming to convert people = from buying a large breed puppy like a Labrador from a puppy farm to adopting = a retired Greyhound. >From all the replies that have come in (thanks everyone!) it does seem = that 4 hours was too limiting as a strict criterion, and we're going to try longer periods.=A0 There are reasons for and against Greyhounds being especially prone to separation anxiety, but individual dogs are so = different you can't turn that into policy.=A0 Homing dogs in pairs is great if = there's a first dog already settled and at least one of them has a confident personality.=A0 But in the past we've had some *complete* nightmares = with two dogs going into a new home together - they're twice as likely to get started, keep going twice as long, and do four times the damage!! The RSPCA (the major animal and rehoming charity in the UK) is against people who work all day keeping dogs, and we're fairly sure that even = with training quite a large proportion of Greyhounds will be, at least, = lonely and anxious being left for 8 hours, so we're going to try to pick the = most calm and confident dogs, around 4-6 years old, with the most committed homes, emphasise the training, and keep a close eye on them.=A0 If we're = not sure we may install some video monitoring. Our training document (given to intending adopters) resulting from this consultation is www.rgtnottingham.org.uk/owners/sa.htm.=A0 If anyone has = any suggestions to improve it further that would be great, also of course if = you want to copy it you're welcome.=A0 If you copy it then improve it please = keep me in touch. Thanks again everyone. Nigel Nottingham Retired Greyhound Trust UK -----Original Message----- From: John Burchard [mailto:saluqi@ix.netcom.com] Sent: 21 February 2004 00:36 To: Applied ethology list Subject: Re: Dogs home alone Nigel Robertson wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I'm a volunteer with a charity which finds homes for Greyhounds as = pets when > they finish racing, in England.=A0 (You're probably aware that = thousands of > Greyhounds are put to sleep every year when they retire.) > > I run our website (www.rgtnottingham.org.uk) and in researching a page = on > separation anxiety I found your excellent page > http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/behaviourproblems/anxie= ty. html. > I was struck by the advice that " Once the dog can be left alone for = 1.5 > hours, it can usually be left all day".=A0 Currently we only accept = homes that > will limit the time they are left home alone to 1/2 day, this means we = are > losing some homes of course, where both partners work full time. > > Could I ask for comments or more information about this?=A0 Every home refused > is a dog put to sleep so we're very keen to be doing the right thing. Greyhound puppies (up to 2 or 3 years old, sometimes) are hell on = wheels, full of energy, and can be incredibly "creative" if left alone.=A0 Adults are = much quieter.=A0 Retired ex-racers are usually pretty mellow.=A0 Greyhounds = need, or at least benefit from, bouts of intense exercise (racing or coursing), but = the rest of the time they are laid back and content to relax. I don't know about British practice but in this country (USA) most = retired Greyhounds come from a kennel situation where they are not used to continuous human contact or attention.=A0 They are however accustomed to living in groups.=A0 I think the corollary is they won't much mind being left alone so long as other dogs are about.=A0 I am anyway reluctant to place a sighthound (even a = Saluki puppy) in a household with no other sighthounds, unless the prospective owners are already experienced sighthound folks.=A0 You might want to consider placing your ex-racers two at a time! . Any sighthound is easier to live with if it has an outlet for its = natural instincts, especially the instinct to chase things.=A0 Provided it is physically sound (many ex-racers retire because of racing injuries which may not be obvious to a non-racing-specialist veterinarian) any Greyhound will benefit both physically and mentally from activities such as lure coursing, if = available. I know some very experienced Greyhound re-homing people in this = country.=A0 If you would like to communicate with them directly, I would be happy to = provide contacts via private E-mail.=A0 They are not behavioral science = professionals and AFAIK none of them are subscribers to this list.=A0 They do however collectively have vast experience in re-homing retired racing Greyhounds. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : = http://explorer.msn.com From: IN%"applied.ethology@katiestuff.com" "Katie Lukas" 27-FEB-2004 12:08:54.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone I'm not sure I can wholly agree with the fact that you can't predict SA. While I think the prediction part of that is true, I do think that it's not difficult to recognize the symptoms of SA pretty rapidly unless they are truly very minimal. I definitely think that the breed component is true, and I have found that, in my experience, breeds that have been selected specifically for human companionship, regardless of other traits, tend to score higher on the SA charts. Weims, for example (being my breed, I know more about them, especially since my first girl [as I mentioned] had absolutely terrible, very severe SA) were bred to hunt, of course, but they were also bred to live in the home with the family. Weims, as well as a number of other breeds including hunting and sporting breeds, often do not do well at all if forced to live away from people. Of course, the upside of all of that is that they are also incredibly affectionate and often very loyal and loving. My puppy clearly has the "never met a man I didn't like" attitude. To add to the above and the below, however, there is something I think very worth mentioning: that there are steps a family can take, especially at the point of bringing a new dog into a new home, that can dramatically decrease the likelihood and the severity of any potential separation anxiety. Personally speaking, I would advise new doggy parents to take these steps regardless of whether or not the dog seemed to present anxiety: new situations and new people can give rise or show new or hidden anxieties. It seems to me that if you can try to decrease the potential for anxiety, that is more important than any case study or test results in terms of these dogs. As for greyhounds - I personally can't claim to be an expert, but I can say that most of the rehomed greyhounds I have met (which is all of the greyhounds I have met) have been sweet and not much given to chasing prey, albeit often anxious and fearful. I have yet to see one that had to wear a muzzle in any situation. Katie >I honestly do not think you can predict which ones are prone to SA. I think >a random approach is best. Just try to match people/families with dogs wher= e >they like each other ie the dogs like the people and vice verce. Breed may >be the best predictor of SA where Staffies, Boxers are overrepresented (wha= t >other breeds everyone?). Breed predisposition is irrelevant in your case >because they are all greyhounds, that is unless greyhounds are a susceptibl= e >breed. If I had to guess, I would say that any kennel raised dog would be >rather good at being without people for long periods of time. A conspecific >(a doggy friend) may be the best predictor of quality of life for home-alon= e >dogs. Kennel raised dogs usually like other dogs, that is if they have been >well socialised to other dogs which most have. >A na=EFve question: do greyhounds have to wear a muzzle whenever in public?= Do >they pose any additional risk (ie over that of any other dog) to small pets= , >like cats, small dogs etc? >Ps you need to manually add "applied ethology discussion list" in the >address, to send out a general message. >Regards, Jackie Perkins > >-----Original Message----- >From: Nigel Robertson [mailto:n.robertson@openerg.com] >Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 7:47 AM >To: Geiger >Subject: RE: Dogs home alone > >Hi Jackie > >That's a very interesting thought. My starting point was that we know that >some substantial proportion of dogs won't be OK left for 8 hours, and so I >wasn't really seeing it as a pure experiment. I suppose it depends how wel= l >we think we can predict for individual dogs at the moment. If we can't >predict very well then we should experiment properly as you say - a random >sample, videoing and pulling dogs out of their new homes as soon as we see >that the formal training hasn't been enough. If we can predict to some >extent then we can make a start and refine our knowledge as we gain >experience. That's OK as long as we don't start off excluding dogs who >would in fact be OK (because we would never find out). > >Can I ask everyone for views and suggestions about how to identify dogs >suitable for being home alone for 8 hours? We just get to know them in >kennels (in pairs, not crated) and on walks on a lead. > >Thanks. >Nigel Robertson >Retired Greyhound Trust >Nottingham >England > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] >Sent: 25 February 2004 06:50 >To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: RE: Dogs home alone > > >A thought comes to mind about selectively sending retired greyhounds out to >homes where there people work full-time; If you hand-pick dogs which you >deem to be confident, you are biasing your plan and your results may not be >trustworthy. For example, some dogs with separation anxiety are lovely with >people, even confident. If these were selected to go to these homes on >trial, you may be setting them up to fail. To give the new screening >procedure a fair trial, in my opinion you would be better off to randomly >send dogs to these working families rather than risk biasing the outcomes. >Jackie Perkins > >-----Original Message----- >From: Nigel Robertson [mailto:n.robertson@openerg.com] >Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 11:00 AM >To: Applied-ethology; Zen Trainer >Subject: RE: Dogs home alone > >Hi Tracy > >Stopping racing is not a goal of the Retired Greyhound Trust, which is part >of the UK industry in fact. There are other rescues which are anti-racing.= >Within our branch there is a range of opinion from anti- to pro- racing, we >settle for saving as many as we can and trying to change the culture of the >industry so that they're recognised as a pet breed and it becomes >unacceptable to just put them to sleep. > >If you are trying to stop racing then I personally am all for you, but in >this particular role I have to coexist with trainers and racing owners in >order to achieve the more modest target I've set myself. Sadly there are >trainers who if they think you're anti-racing will put a dog down rather >than let you home it for nothing. > >Part of my personal rationale is that if we reach a critical mass of say 50= % >of dogs homed it will become unacceptable to put the other 50% to sleep, an= d >that will reinforce the anti-racing arguments about life after racing, and >about quality of life while racing, and about pups destroyed in breeding. >Alabamba (I think it was) recently came close to having Greyhounds classed >as farm stock so that they could be killed by anyone not a vet, so there's = a >big image battle to win. > >Regards >Nigel > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Zen Trainer [mailto:zentrainer@hotmail.com] >Sent: 22 February 2004 18:21 >To: Nigel Robertson >Subject: Re: Dogs home alone >Nigel, > I have been curious about this for some time. In what way do you >feel Greyhound Rescue helps to stop the racing industry? Or is that a goal >of greyhound rescuers at all? >Thanks! >Tracy B Ann >Companion Animal Support Services >Nashville, TN >www.casstrainer.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Nigel Robertson >Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 5:17 AM >To: Applied-ethology >Subject: RE: Dogs home alone > >I didn't mean to sound as though we lack experience. A trip around >Greyhound websites shows how expert opinion is often confidently held but >pretty variable! I just want to get as close as I can to an "informed >basis" for our policy on how long dogs can be left alone, bearing in mind >that although it's quite easy to define an ideal home, what we unfortunatel= y >have to do is define the line beyond which it's better to have a dog put to >sleep. I think the ideal home thing is a tempting trap for all rehomers, >because we all want the best for the dogs we know. > >For example, for us it wouldn't do to accept only homes which already have = a >sighthound, there are at least 10,000 Greyhounds a year needing homes in th= e >UK and so to save them we need to spread Greyhounds into about 2% of >dog-owning households. This means deliberately aiming to convert people fro= m >buying a large breed puppy like a Labrador from a puppy farm to adopting a >retired Greyhound. > >>From all the replies that have come in (thanks everyone!) it does seem tha= t >4 hours was too limiting as a strict criterion, and we're going to try >longer periods. There are reasons for and against Greyhounds being >especially prone to separation anxiety, but individual dogs are so differen= t >you can't turn that into policy. Homing dogs in pairs is great if there's = a >first dog already settled and at least one of them has a confident >personality. But in the past we've had some *complete* nightmares with two >dogs going into a new home together - they're twice as likely to get >started, keep going twice as long, and do four times the damage!! > >The RSPCA (the major animal and rehoming charity in the UK) is against >people who work all day keeping dogs, and we're fairly sure that even with >training quite a large proportion of Greyhounds will be, at least, lonely >and anxious being left for 8 hours, so we're going to try to pick the most >calm and confident dogs, around 4-6 years old, with the most committed >homes, emphasise the training, and keep a close eye on them. If we're not >sure we may install some video monitoring. > >Our training document (given to intending adopters) resulting from this >consultation is www.rgtnottingham.org.uk/owners/sa.htm. If anyone has any >suggestions to improve it further that would be great, also of course if yo= u >want to copy it you're welcome. If you copy it then improve it please keep >me in touch. > >Thanks again everyone. > >Nigel >Nottingham Retired Greyhound Trust >UK > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: John Burchard [mailto:saluqi@ix.netcom.com] >Sent: 21 February 2004 00:36 >To: Applied ethology list >Subject: Re: Dogs home alone > > >Nigel Robertson wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I'm a volunteer with a charity which finds homes for Greyhounds as pets >when >> they finish racing, in England. (You're probably aware that thousands o= f >> Greyhounds are put to sleep every year when they retire.) >> >> I run our website (www.rgtnottingham.org.uk) and in researching a page o= n >> separation anxiety I found your excellent page >> >http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/behaviourproblems/anxiety= =2E >html. >> I was struck by the advice that " Once the dog can be left alone for 1.5 >> hours, it can usually be left all day". Currently we only accept homes >that >> will limit the time they are left home alone to 1/2 day, this means we a= re >> losing some homes of course, where both partners work full time. >> >> Could I ask for comments or more information about this? Every home >refused >> is a dog put to sleep so we're very keen to be doing the right thing. > >Greyhound puppies (up to 2 or 3 years old, sometimes) are hell on wheels, >full >of energy, and can be incredibly "creative" if left alone. Adults are much >quieter. Retired ex-racers are usually pretty mellow. Greyhounds need, or >at >least benefit from, bouts of intense exercise (racing or coursing), but the >rest >of the time they are laid back and content to relax. > >I don't know about British practice but in this country (USA) most retired >Greyhounds come from a kennel situation where they are not used to >continuous >human contact or attention. They are however accustomed to living in >groups. I >think the corollary is they won't much mind being left alone so long as >other >dogs are about. I am anyway reluctant to place a sighthound (even a Saluki >puppy) in a household with no other sighthounds, unless the prospective >owners >are already experienced sighthound folks. You might want to consider >placing >your ex-racers two at a time! . > >Any sighthound is easier to live with if it has an outlet for its natural >instincts, especially the instinct to chase things. Provided it is >physically >sound (many ex-racers retire because of racing injuries which may not be >obvious >to a non-racing-specialist veterinarian) any Greyhound will benefit both >physically and mentally from activities such as lure coursing, if available= =2E > >I know some very experienced Greyhound re-homing people in this country. I= f >you >would like to communicate with them directly, I would be happy to provide >contacts via private E-mail. They are not behavioral science professionals >and >AFAIK none of them are subscribers to this list. They do however >collectively >have vast experience in re-homing retired racing Greyhounds. > >John >-- >Dr. John Burchard >Tepe Gawra Salukis >http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ >saluqi@ix.netcom.com > > > > > >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com -- ------------- Katie Lukas Dog Trainer & Behavioralist http://www.katiek9.com katie@katiek9.com From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 28-FEB-2004 13:54:12.27 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone Any dog which is harming itself is going to have SA as opposed to = boredom. A video of the dog's behaviour in human absence will clearly display the demeanor of the dog ie whether it is bored or anxious. Dogs with SA are often very relaxed happy dogs around people. You would never guess!! Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 9:33 PM To: Geiger Subject: RE: Dogs home alone Hi Jackie, My question would be: How would you get a diagnosis of SA as opposed to boredom? I dog sit two greyhounds and one has been diagnosed with SA. I would like to do some observations. Maybe, Tidal doesn't have SA. CeAnn --- Geiger wrote: > I honestly do not think you can predict which ones > are prone to SA. I think > a random approach is best. Just try to match > people/families with dogs where > they like each other ie the dogs like the people and > vice verce. Breed may > be the best predictor of SA where Staffies, Boxers > are overrepresented (what > other breeds everyone?). Breed predisposition is > irrelevant in your case > because they are all greyhounds, that is unless > greyhounds are a susceptible > breed. If I had to guess, I would say that any > kennel raised dog would be > rather good at being without people for long periods > of time. A conspecific > (a doggy friend) may be the best predictor of > quality of life for home-alone > dogs. Kennel raised dogs usually like other dogs, > that is if they have been > well socialised to other dogs which most have.=20 > A na=EFve question: do greyhounds have to wear a > muzzle whenever in public? Do > they pose any additional risk (ie over that of any > other dog) to small pets, > like cats, small dogs etc? > Ps you need to manually add "applied ethology > discussion list" in the > address, to send out a general message. > Regards, Jackie Perkins >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Nigel Robertson > [mailto:n.robertson@openerg.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 7:47 AM > To: Geiger > Subject: RE: Dogs home alone >=20 > Hi Jackie >=20 > That's a very interesting thought. My starting > point was that we know that > some substantial proportion of dogs won't be OK left > for 8 hours, and so I > wasn't really seeing it as a pure experiment. I > suppose it depends how well > we think we can predict for individual dogs at the > moment. If we can't > predict very well then we should experiment properly > as you say - a random > sample, videoing and pulling dogs out of their new > homes as soon as we see > that the formal training hasn't been enough. If we > can predict to some > extent then we can make a start and refine our > knowledge as we gain > experience. That's OK as long as we don't start off > excluding dogs who > would in fact be OK (because we would never find > out). >=20 > Can I ask everyone for views and suggestions about > how to identify dogs > suitable for being home alone for 8 hours? We just > get to know them in > kennels (in pairs, not crated) and on walks on a > lead. >=20 > Thanks. > Nigel Robertson > Retired Greyhound Trust > Nottingham > England >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] > Sent: 25 February 2004 06:50 > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: RE: Dogs home alone >=20 >=20 > A thought comes to mind about selectively sending > retired greyhounds out to > homes where there people work full-time; If you > hand-pick dogs which you > deem to be confident, you are biasing your plan and > your results may not be > trustworthy. For example, some dogs with separation > anxiety are lovely with > people, even confident. If these were selected to go > to these homes on > trial, you may be setting them up to fail. To give > the new screening > procedure a fair trial, in my opinion you would be > better off to randomly > send dogs to these working families rather than risk > biasing the outcomes. > Jackie Perkins >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Nigel Robertson > [mailto:n.robertson@openerg.com] > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 11:00 AM > To: Applied-ethology; Zen Trainer > Subject: RE: Dogs home alone >=20 > Hi Tracy > =A0 > Stopping racing is not=A0a goal of the Retired > Greyhound Trust, which is part > of the UK industry in fact.=A0 There are other rescues > which are anti-racing.=A0 > Within our branch there is a range of opinion from > anti- to pro- racing, we > settle for saving as many as we can and trying to > change the culture of the > industry so that they're recognised as a pet breed > and it becomes > unacceptable to just put them to sleep.=A0 > =A0 > If you are trying to stop racing then I personally > am all for you, but in > this particular role I have to coexist with trainers > and racing owners in > order to achieve the more modest target I've set > myself.=A0 Sadly there are > trainers who if they think you're anti-racing will > put a dog down rather > than let you home it for nothing.=A0 > =A0 > Part of my personal=A0rationale is that if we reach a > critical mass of say 50% > of dogs homed it will become unacceptable to put the > other 50% to sleep, and > that will reinforce the anti-racing arguments about > life after racing, and > about quality of life while racing, and about pups > destroyed in breeding.=A0 > Alabamba (I think it was) recently came close to > having Greyhounds classed > as farm stock so that they could be killed by anyone > not a vet, so there's a > big image battle to win. > =A0 > Regards > Nigel > =A0 > =A0 > -----Original Message----- > From: Zen Trainer [mailto:zentrainer@hotmail.com] > Sent: 22 February 2004 18:21 > To: Nigel Robertson > Subject: Re: Dogs home alone > Nigel, > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have been curious about=A0this for some > time. In what way do you > feel Greyhound Rescue helps to stop the racing > industry? Or is that a goal > of greyhound rescuers at all? > Thanks! > Tracy B Ann > Companion Animal Support Services > Nashville, TN > www.casstrainer.com=A0 > =A0 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Nigel Robertson > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 5:17 AM > To: Applied-ethology > Subject: RE: Dogs home alone > =A0 > I didn't mean to sound as though we lack > experience.=A0 A trip around > Greyhound websites shows how expert opinion is often > confidently held but > pretty variable!=A0 I just want to get as close as I > can to an "informed > basis" for our policy on how long dogs can be left > alone, bearing in mind > that although it's quite easy to define an ideal > home, what we unfortunately > have to do is define the line beyond which it's > better to have a dog put to > sleep.=A0 I think the ideal home thing is a tempting > trap for all rehomers, > because we all want the best for the dogs we know. >=20 > For example, for us it wouldn't do to accept only > homes which already have a > sighthound, there are at least 10,000 Greyhounds a > year needing homes in the > UK and so to save them we need to spread Greyhounds > into about 2% of > dog-owning households. This means deliberately > aiming to convert people from > buying a large breed puppy like a Labrador from a > puppy farm to adopting a > retired Greyhound. >=20 >=20 =3D=3D=3D message truncated =3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From: IN%"Gerflannigan@aol.com" 28-FEB-2004 15:23:30.75 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone In a message dated 2/27/2004 12:39:12 AM Central Standard Time, gooddog@dodo.com.au writes: > I honestly do not think you can predict which ones are prone to SA. I think > a random approach is best. Just try to match people/families with dogs where > they like each other ie the dogs like the people and vice verce. Breed may > be the best predictor of SA where Staffies, Boxers are overrepresented (what > other breeds everyone?). When large numbers of dogs who present for separation anxiety are looked at closely, there is no breed predisposition. The breeds coincide with AKC statistics. Studies to date, have looked at dogs who present for the problem and back tract to look for common features (a retrospective study). The question always arises whether the features were present prior to the clinical syndrome or as consequence of the condition. Ideally, recognizing dogs with potential risk factors and then following them to see what percentage go on to develop the disorder is the only way to really know for sure (a prospective study). Unfortunately that hasn't been done for separation anxiety mostly because you would need to follow a large number of dogs to make the results statistically viable and no one is going to pay for the study. Some thoughts, Gerry _________________________________________________________________ Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc., DACVB Carolina Veterinary Specialists Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina 336-632-0605 (Voice) 336-632-0703 (Fax) gerflannigan@aol.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 28-FEB-2004 23:51:59.13 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs home alone Jackie Perkins wrote: > I honestly do not think you can predict which ones are prone to SA. I think > a random approach is best. Just try to match people/families with dogs where > they like each other ie the dogs like the people and vice verce. Breed may > be the best predictor of SA where Staffies, Boxers are overrepresented (what > other breeds everyone?). Breed predisposition is irrelevant in your case > because they are all greyhounds, that is unless greyhounds are a susceptible > breed. If I had to guess, I would say that any kennel raised dog would be > rather good at being without people for long periods of time. A conspecific > (a doggy friend) may be the best predictor of quality of life for home-alone > dogs. Kennel raised dogs usually like other dogs, that is if they have been > well socialised to other dogs which most have. > A naïve question: do greyhounds have to wear a muzzle whenever in public? Do > they pose any additional risk (ie over that of any other dog) to small pets, > like cats, small dogs etc? Greyhounds wear muzzles when "turned out" in racing kennels because there are usually a bunch of them and if they do gang up on one weaker animal it can be killed too quickly for anyone to intervene. That is not a problem in a "pet" situation or even in contexts such as a coursing meet where many Greyhounds (and sometimes other sighthound breeds) come together. I handle Greyhounds in the field, and at home when their owner is away, on a regular basis. They are never muzzled. Six or eight or ten together, or with a similar number of Salukis, no problem. Greyhounds *are* sighthounds and have a powerful urge to chase smaller, fleeing animals. They are often dangerous to housecats. Some can learn to live at peace with cats in the home, others I think perhaps cannot. Unfamiliar cats, in the yard, and running away, are very likely to be killed. As one of our Greyhound adoption people puts it to adopters, "all dogs chase cats, and Greyhounds catch them." A rule of thumb is, don't let your cats out in the yard with your Greyhounds, even if they get along inside the house. Greyhounds are also, however, usually very mellow and good-natured and I have not encountered a problem getting along with other dogs. The idea of sighthounds as ungovernable predators does not jibe with my experience. I have had a house full of Salukis, along with an adult Arabian wolf, a rescue Shih Tzu, half a dozen cats, a free flying Greater Sulfur Crested Cockatoo, and several free flying Indian Ringneck Parakeets (they were breeding in a small cage in our living room). Not to mention several falcons on perches in the back yard. Everybody got along just fine, without a lot of special training or special precautions, outside as well as inside the house. The wolf, to be sure, had grown up under those conditions ... I did have to keep the parakeets from visiting the falcons, who would be happy to eat them . Those Salukis were regularly used to course live game. They were all experienced hunters (and the wolf participated with them in hunting, though she couldn't run as fast or as far as they could). That did not make them more "dangerous" around the house, but if anything the opposite: since they had plenty of opportunity to hunt, they weren't much tempted to chase other, inappropriate kinds of "quarry" ... > Ps you need to manually add "applied ethology discussion list" in the > address, to send out a general message. That is because the default for this list is to reply to the individual poster of a message, rather than to the list. The reason for that setting was explained a while back and can presumably be found in the list archives. If you make an entry in your address book for "Applied ethology discussion list" you probably have to type only "app" to bring up the correct address . Unless that is you have a lot of other "applied" things in your address book, or "Appleby, Michael" in that form . Then you would have to type "Appli" ... John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com