From: IN%"hakosalo@hytti.uku.fi" 17-JAN-2005 07:28:17.00 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: introduction / becoming a Pet Behavioural Councellor Hello everyone! I'm a 23-year old Finnish student, studying Applied Biotechnology (Applied Zoology) at the University of Kuopio, Finland. I will graduate with a Master of Science in summer -05. I’ve been studying the behaviour and welfare of dairy cattle, and that's also the subject of my thesis. The reason I joined this group is that I'm planning to continue my studies abroad, but I really can't find adequate educational information. My goal is to become a pet behaviour counsellor/pet behavioural therapist, but I don't know what should I do to become one? I'm planning to continue my studies in UK, but educational information from other countries is also very welcome. So if you know what should I do to become a pet behaviour counsellor, please contact me. I'm very grateful for every piece of information you can give. Sincerely, Jenni Hakosalo hakosalo@hytti.uku.fi From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 18-JAN-2005 05:20:20.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: citation on animal ethics Dear all, One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard Rollin (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences of a limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering. Something like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no notion of that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole world is pain. Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this discussion and where to find it? Regards, Anna Olsson Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"fludzinski@thales.com" "Marek Fludzinski" 18-JAN-2005 07:27:49.83 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics And if someone recalls the reference please contact a medium and send a copy to Descartes! ::: -----Original Message----- ::: From: Anna Olsson [mailto:olsson@ibmc.up.pt] ::: Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 6:23 AM ::: To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca ::: Subject: citation on animal ethics ::: ::: ::: Dear all, ::: ::: One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is ::: Bernard Rollin (although I might be wrong here), has ::: discussed the consequences of a limited notion of the ::: future for animals' capacity for suffering. Something like ::: that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has ::: no notion of that pain may have an end and so while ::: feeling pain its whole world is pain. Can anyone on this ::: list help me with the original author of this discussion ::: and where to find it? ::: ::: Regards, ::: Anna Olsson ::: ::: Dr Anna Olsson ::: Researcher ::: Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics ::: ::: Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC ::: Rua Campo Alegre 823 ::: 4150-180 Porto ::: Phone +351 22 607 4900 ::: Fax +351 22 6099157 ::: ::: From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 18-JAN-2005 09:32:26.84 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Anna Olsson- Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience pain?- Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- And still further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when experiencing pain at any given level?- This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" and its implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way too far in the direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for instance, are we sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says who?- On what evidence?- -Stanley Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna Olsson" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM Subject: citation on animal ethics > Dear all, > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard Rollin (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences of a limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering. Something like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no notion of that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole world is pain. Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this discussion and where to find it? > > Regards, > Anna Olsson > > Dr Anna Olsson > Researcher > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > 4150-180 Porto > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > Fax +351 22 6099157 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 18-JAN-2005 09:43:58.59 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" CC: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Stan, I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. This is a computer simulated rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for teaching vet students about learning whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about such teaching. I have managed to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he must stop pressing on the food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this not mean he is predicting the consequences of his actions and therefore has at least 'a limited notion of the future'? Regards, Chris On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis wrote: > > Anna Olsson- > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience pain?- > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- And still > further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when experiencing > pain at any given level?- > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" and its > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way too far in the > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for instance, are we > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says who?- On what > evidence?- > > -Stanley Curtis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anna Olsson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > Dear all, > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard Rollin > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences of a > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering. Something > like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no notion of > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole world is pain. > Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this discussion > and where to find it? > > > > Regards, > > Anna Olsson > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > Researcher > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > 4150-180 Porto > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology, Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, BS40 5DU, U.K. Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 18-JAN-2005 09:54:25.86 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" CC: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Chris Sherwin- First, "Sniffy the virtual rat"is an intriguing exercise, but, of course, Sniffy isn't an animal- Sniffy is exactly what you programmed it to be, no more and no less- Second, I gathered that the notion of "a limited notion of the future" as presented by Anna Olsson emphasized the "limited" aspect of the situation and the implications thereof- Third, I don't undestand how an animal's being able to "predict the consequences of its actions" would be related consequentially (you said "therefore") with that animal's "limited notion of the future"- -Stanley Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Sherwin" To: "Stanley Curtis" Cc: "Anna Olsson" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:42 AM Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > Stan, > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. This is a computer simulated > rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for teaching vet students about learning > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about such teaching. I have managed > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he must stop pressing on the > food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this not mean he is predicting > the consequences of his actions and therefore has at least 'a limited notion of > the future'? > > Regards, > > Chris > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis wrote: > > > > > Anna Olsson- > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience pain?- > > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- And still > > further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when experiencing > > pain at any given level?- > > > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" and its > > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way too far in the > > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for instance, are we > > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says who?- On what > > evidence?- > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Anna Olsson" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard Rollin > > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences of a > > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering. Something > > like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no notion of > > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole world is pain. > > Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this discussion > > and where to find it? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > > Researcher > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > > 4150-180 Porto > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > > > > > ............................................................. > Dr C.M. Sherwin > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > University of Bristol, > Langford House, > Langford, > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 18-JAN-2005 10:02:57.77 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Dear Stanley and others, However provocative I may be at times, this time I was honestly only trying= to track down a discussion / quotation that I don't necessarily agree= with. But obviously I can't resist a response... I don't think you need to "think" about pain to suffer from it, if you= define "thinking" as something analogue to our verbal thinking "what a= terrible headache" or "I wonder if that stomach pain is something= serious". It's possible to conceive of consciousness at several levels: we= as adult verbal humans are able to feel what we feel and to reflect upon= it whereas nonverbal mammals and preverbal children may only be able to= feel, without reflecting upon it. Neurobiologist Antonio Damasio has= devoted an entire book to the subject (The feeling of what happens - Body,= emotion and the making of consciousness; highly recommendable), and my= quote from his book won't give justice to the topic but is highly= relevant: "in my proposal, extended consciousness rides on top of the foundational= core consciousness which we and other species have long had and continue= to have. --- When we think of the greatness of consciousness we have extended= consciousness in mind. When we slip and say that consciousness is a= distinctively human quality, we are thinking of extended consciousness at= its highest reaches, not of core consciousness, and we should be forgiven= for the arrogance: extended consciousness is indeed a prodigious function,= and, at its peak, it is uniquely human. ---- Extended consciousness is everything core consciousness is, only= bigger and better, and it does nothing but grow across evolution and= across a lifetime of experience in each individual. If core consciousness= allows you to know for a transient moment that it is you seeing a bird in= flight or that it is you having a sensation of pain, extended= consciousness places these same esperiences in a broader canvas and over a= longer period of time. Extended consciousness stil hinges on the same core= "you", but that "you" is now connected to the lived past and anticipated= future that are part of your autobiographical record. Rather than just= accessing the fact that you have pain, you can also survey the facts= concernining where the pain is (the elbow), what caused it (tennis), when= you last had it before (three years ago, or was it four?), who has also= had it recently (Aunt Maggie), the doctor she went to (Dr. May, or was it= Dr. Nichols?), the fact that you will not be able to play with Jack= tomorrow)" Damasio 2000 The feeling of what happens - Body, emotion and the making of= consciousness As for animals' notion of time, Marek Spinka did an interesting experiments= on sows at the University of Guelph, maybe Marek himself would like to= comment on it? I recently wrote something related about sceptical views on the subjective= experience of animals, which I paste below for those that have the= patience to read more. Regards, Anna There are those that defend that the subjective experiences of animals are= very different from humans, so different that any inferences from our= experience of what it is to be a human are invalid. Dutch psychologist Bob= Bermond (eg 2001) is one of the critics. A central part of his argument= uses the parallel with humans with lesions to the prefrontal cortex. One= of the consequences of such lesions is that patients although aware of the= nociception are not bothered by pain . What happens is, it seems, that the= emotional response to the pain disappears. Bermond therefore argues that,= since no other animals than the great apes have the prefrontal cortex= development that in humans is crucial for emotional pain reaction, most= animals are not able to suffer from pain. If Bermond is correct and only= humans and other great apes are able to experience pain as a negative= mental state, it is difficult to understand the evolutionary role of pain= in other vertebrates. In general, a character is preserved in evolution= only if it increases fitness of its possessor, that is if the individuals= showing this character leave more offspring than others. It is generally= assumed that the biological function of pain is to aid survival, through= promoting behaviours which are useful in situations where pain appear,= such as withdrawing from the pain-causing agent, protecting an injured= body part or resting when suffering from an infection. But in order to= have this function, pain must, it seems, produce an aversive emotive= experience, that the animal strives to avoid, and not only peripheral= nociception. If pain was nothing more than peripheral nociception to= non-primate animals, they would be expected to show a response similar to= that of humans with congenital pain indifference syndrome - but the= maladaptive and seriously self-injurious behaviour typical of such= patients is very different from how a normal animal reacts to noxious= stimuli. It appears the type of consciousness Bermond claims to be= necessary for emotional response to pain is one which enables an= individual to reflect on the awareness of the response of its body= (roughly comparable to what Antonio Damasio (2000) terms 'extended= consciousness' and indeed in accordance with Bermond attributes only to a= few animal species). But the emotional response to pain is in itself the= awareness of the body response. To have an emotional response, there is no= need to be able to reflect upon it - "the foundational core consciousness= which we and other species have long had and continue to have" (Damasio= 2000) is sufficient. Olsson, 2005, forthcoming in Breviarium de Sociedade Portuguesa de =C9tica= Ambiental *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 18-01-2005 at 9:32 Stanley Curtis wrote: >Anna Olsson- > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience pain?- >Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- And still >further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when experiencing >pain at any given level?- > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" and its >implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way too far in >the >direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for instance, are >we >sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says who?- On >what >evidence?- > > -Stanley Curtis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anna Olsson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > Dear all, > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard Rollin >(although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences of a >limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering.= Something >like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no notion= of >that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole world is >pain. >Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this= discussion >and where to find it? > > > > Regards, > > Anna Olsson > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > Researcher > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > 4150-180 Porto > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - >---- Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 18-JAN-2005 10:24:54.91 To: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" CC: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics There is a big, big difference between having an ability to "predict the future" and "knowing that one can 'predict' the future." There is no question that animals have the ability "to know certain things" - even 'predict' certain things about their future; and this in fact can be genetic in some instances such as those factors influenced by photoperiod, etc. But how much ability do they have "to know that they know?" We human animals "know that we know." And the really interesting question thus becomes, do other animals also have this ability (or how much ability do they have in the case of chimps at least). (Anna, I am fairly certain - but didn't take the time to re-check - that Rollin talked about the topic of having a concept of the future relative to pain in his book _Animal Consciousness, Animal Pain & Science_. However, this idea is not original to Rollin. I believe you can find that Michael Fox for example earlier discussed the idea that lacking a concept of the future could enhance fear, along with a majority of the other topics Rollin covers. In fact I expect if you trace back far enough, I think that you might even find that the early Greeks talked about this enigma. If I were to list a reference for purposes of sending the reader to the best current position on what it means to have a concept of the future relative to animals from among philosophers of mind today, I would use Daniel Dennett and probably cite _Consciousness Explained_ or _Kinds of Minds_. And would not trust my memory and would check of course to see exactly how he dealt with the question in each book.) Regards to all, Ray Stricklin University of Maryland -----Original Message----- From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:42 AM To: Stanley Curtis Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics Stan, I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. This is a computer simulated rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for teaching vet students about learning whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about such teaching. I have managed to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he must stop pressing on the food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this not mean he is predicting the consequences of his actions and therefore has at least 'a limited notion of the future'? Regards, Chris On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis wrote: > > Anna Olsson- > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience pain?- > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- And still > further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when experiencing > pain at any given level?- > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" and its > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way too far in the > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for instance, are we > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says who?- On what > evidence?- > > -Stanley Curtis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anna Olsson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > Dear all, > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard Rollin > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences of a > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering. Something > like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no notion of > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole world is pain. > Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this discussion > and where to find it? > > > > Regards, > > Anna Olsson > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > Researcher > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > 4150-180 Porto > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---- > > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology, Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, BS40 5DU, U.K. Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"pdezabu1@dancris.com" "pduezabou" 18-JAN-2005 10:25:31.79 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics First, Anna brings a serious question from the discussion of animal consciousness. I personally like to say that I came to philosophy late and reluctantly. The questions are framed in a particular way, and the burden of proof is also particular to that discipline. For me, it's largely about learning to wrap your brain around a subject from a unique, often speculative, direction. Try it. And, 'Ethics' as a discipline is still embedded in philosophy. There are many stakeholders. Get used to it. For Anna: I didn't find the discussion you seek in either Veterinary Medical Ethics or Farm Animal Welfare (both by Rollin). However, I found Dr. Rollin both helpful and curteous when I once spoke with him. Ask him. Bernard.Rollin@colostate.edu I did find a nice discussion in Degrazia, D. (1996). Taking animals seriously. Cambridge University Press. (starting at p. 167). Degrazia references a 1987 Presidential Address for the American Philosophical Association by Jonathan Bennett who argues that animals are rooted in the present and that behavior is the only evidence for deciding the issue. There's probably a lot of philosophical fall out from that. Good luck in finding your reference. Peggy Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick (Duezabou) BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals & Public Policy), ABD From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 18-JAN-2005 10:26:43.52 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Anna Olsson- I agree that an animal wouldn't have to "think" about pain to suffer from it- That isn't what I was referring to- What I was referring to was an animal's "thinking" about (or not "thinkng" about) any future consequences of a painful episode- I'm willing to stipulate that animals feel pain as a perceived aversive sensation- It's the trying to guage the level of suffering in terms of emotional distress they may be experiencing that gives me pause- I think that at this time we know absolutely nothing about animal suffering- We can speculate- We can surmise- We can analogize and anthropomorphize- But we can't know- I also think we know nothing about any futuristic "thinking" by any animal- I think, further, that unless and until we do understand these things based on scientific evidence, we ought not be basing husbandry systems and governmental and industrial regulations on our respective brainchildren in these regards- Finally, I think we ought to be spending more time and energy on trying to learn more about animals' cognitive processes (that's the way we're most likely to come to understand how an animals feels) and less on musing philosophically and building virtual "models" of things we don't know anything about- -Stanley Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna Olsson" To: "Stanley Curtis" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:04 AM Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics Dear Stanley and others, However provocative I may be at times, this time I was honestly only trying to track down a discussion / quotation that I don't necessarily agree with. But obviously I can't resist a response... I don't think you need to "think" about pain to suffer from it, if you define "thinking" as something analogue to our verbal thinking "what a terrible headache" or "I wonder if that stomach pain is something serious". It's possible to conceive of consciousness at several levels: we as adult verbal humans are able to feel what we feel and to reflect upon it whereas nonverbal mammals and preverbal children may only be able to feel, without reflecting upon it. Neurobiologist Antonio Damasio has devoted an entire book to the subject (The feeling of what happens - Body, emotion and the making of consciousness; highly recommendable), and my quote from his book won't give justice to the topic but is highly relevant: "in my proposal, extended consciousness rides on top of the foundational core consciousness which we and other species have long had and continue to have. --- When we think of the greatness of consciousness we have extended consciousness in mind. When we slip and say that consciousness is a distinctively human quality, we are thinking of extended consciousness at its highest reaches, not of core consciousness, and we should be forgiven for the arrogance: extended consciousness is indeed a prodigious function, and, at its peak, it is uniquely human. ---- Extended consciousness is everything core consciousness is, only bigger and better, and it does nothing but grow across evolution and across a lifetime of experience in each individual. If core consciousness allows you to know for a transient moment that it is you seeing a bird in flight or that it is you having a sensation of pain, extended consciousness places these same esperiences in a broader canvas and over a longer period of time. Extended consciousness stil hinges on the same core "you", but that "you" is now connected to the lived past and anticipated future that are part of your autobiographical record. Rather than just accessing the fact that you have pain, you can also survey the facts concernining where the pain is (the elbow), what caused it (tennis), when you last had it before (three years ago, or was it four?), who has also had it recently (Aunt Maggie), the doctor she went to (Dr. May, or was it Dr. Nichols?), the fact that you will not be able to play with Jack tomorrow)" Damasio 2000 The feeling of what happens - Body, emotion and the making of consciousness As for animals' notion of time, Marek Spinka did an interesting experiments on sows at the University of Guelph, maybe Marek himself would like to comment on it? I recently wrote something related about sceptical views on the subjective experience of animals, which I paste below for those that have the patience to read more. Regards, Anna There are those that defend that the subjective experiences of animals are very different from humans, so different that any inferences from our experience of what it is to be a human are invalid. Dutch psychologist Bob Bermond (eg 2001) is one of the critics. A central part of his argument uses the parallel with humans with lesions to the prefrontal cortex. One of the consequences of such lesions is that patients although aware of the nociception are not bothered by pain . What happens is, it seems, that the emotional response to the pain disappears. Bermond therefore argues that, since no other animals than the great apes have the prefrontal cortex development that in humans is crucial for emotional pain reaction, most animals are not able to suffer from pain. If Bermond is correct and only humans and other great apes are able to experience pain as a negative mental state, it is difficult to understand the evolutionary role of pain in other vertebrates. In general, a character is preserved in evolution only if it increases fitness of its possessor, that is if the individuals showing this character leave more offspring than others. It is generally assumed that the biological function of pain is to aid survival, through promoting behaviours which are useful in situations where pain appear, such as withdrawing from the pain-causing agent, protecting an injured body part or resting when suffering from an infection. But in order to have this function, pain must, it seems, produce an aversive emotive experience, that the animal strives to avoid, and not only peripheral nociception. If pain was nothing more than peripheral nociception to non-primate animals, they would be expected to show a response similar to that of humans with congenital pain indifference syndrome - but the maladaptive and seriously self-injurious behaviour typical of such patients is very different from how a normal animal reacts to noxious stimuli. It appears the type of consciousness Bermond claims to be necessary for emotional response to pain is one which enables an individual to reflect on the awareness of the response of its body (roughly comparable to what Antonio Damasio (2000) terms 'extended consciousness' and indeed in accordance with Bermond attributes only to a few animal species). But the emotional response to pain is in itself the awareness of the body response. To have an emotional response, there is no need to be able to reflect upon it - "the foundational core consciousness which we and other species have long had and continue to have" (Damasio 2000) is sufficient. Olsson, 2005, forthcoming in Breviarium de Sociedade Portuguesa de Ética Ambiental *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 18-01-2005 at 9:32 Stanley Curtis wrote: >Anna Olsson- > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience pain?- >Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- And still >further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when experiencing >pain at any given level?- > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" and its >implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way too far in >the >direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for instance, are >we >sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says who?- On >what >evidence?- > > -Stanley Curtis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anna Olsson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > Dear all, > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard Rollin >(although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences of a >limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering. Something >like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no notion of >that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole world is >pain. >Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this discussion >and where to find it? > > > > Regards, > > Anna Olsson > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > Researcher > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > 4150-180 Porto > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >---- Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 18-JAN-2005 10:35:49.28 To: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin", IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" CC: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Ray and others- You'll have to pardon me in one major respect- I join many of you in enjoying thinking about and discussing matters such as the one Anna Olsson has just brought to the table- Intriguing stuff- For me the problem has to do with the glib transferrence of these unverified musings into action plans for industry and government- We do see this happening mroe and more frequently nowdays, and I think it is a dangerous matter- I think we ought to be basing our recommednations for husbandry systems and animal-care regulations on more than a consensus of thoughts that haven't been proved scientfiically- -Stanley Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Stricklin" To: ; "Stanley Curtis" Cc: "Anna Olsson" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:24 AM Subject: RE: citation on animal ethics > > There is a big, big difference between having an ability to "predict the > future" and "knowing that one can 'predict' the future." > > There is no question that animals have the ability "to know certain > things" - even 'predict' certain things about their future; and this in fact > can be genetic in some instances such as those factors influenced by > photoperiod, etc. But how much ability do they have "to know that they > know?" > > We human animals "know that we know." And the really interesting question > thus becomes, do other animals also have this ability (or how much ability > do they have in the case of chimps at least). > > (Anna, I am fairly certain - but didn't take the time to re-check - that > Rollin talked about the topic of having a concept of the future relative to > pain in his book _Animal Consciousness, Animal Pain & Science_. However, > this idea is not original to Rollin. I believe you can find that Michael Fox > for example earlier discussed the idea that lacking a concept of the future > could enhance fear, along with a majority of the other topics Rollin covers. > In fact I expect if you trace back far enough, I think that you might even > find that the early Greeks talked about this enigma. If I were to list a > reference for purposes of sending the reader to the best current position on > what it means to have a concept of the future relative to animals from among > philosophers of mind today, I would use Daniel Dennett and probably cite > _Consciousness Explained_ or _Kinds of Minds_. And would not trust my > memory and would check of course to see exactly how he dealt with the > question in each book.) > > Regards to all, > > Ray Stricklin > University of Maryland > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:42 AM > To: Stanley Curtis > Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > Stan, > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. This is a computer > simulated > rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for teaching vet students about > learning > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about such teaching. I have > managed > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he must stop pressing on > the > food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this not mean he is > predicting > the consequences of his actions and therefore has at least 'a limited notion > of > the future'? > > Regards, > > Chris > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis wrote: > > > > > Anna Olsson- > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience pain?- > > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- And still > > further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when experiencing > > pain at any given level?- > > > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" and its > > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way too far in > the > > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for instance, are > we > > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says who?- On > what > > evidence?- > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Anna Olsson" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard Rollin > > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences of a > > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering. > Something > > like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no notion > of > > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole world is > pain. > > Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this > discussion > > and where to find it? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > > Researcher > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > > 4150-180 Porto > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > ---- > > > > > > ............................................................. > Dr C.M. Sherwin > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > University of Bristol, > Langford House, > Langford, > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 18-JAN-2005 11:02:36.99 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" CC: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis", IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Dear Stan > First, "Sniffy the virtual rat"is an intriguing exercise, but, of course, > Sniffy isn't an animal- Sniffy is exactly what you programmed it to be, no > more and no less- Yes of course, but there are plenty of papers published which show that a wide range of animals do behave in this way. I appreciate the subtlety of your arguement. What is happening here is that an animal is learning to associate it's actions with future consequences. That is not the same as knowing that it can predict the future, but it does indicate that the animal has some 'notion' of what the future will/not bring for it if it behaves in a particular way. > > Second, I gathered that the notion of "a limited notion of the future" as > presented by Anna Olsson emphasized the "limited" aspect of the situation > and the implications thereof- Sorry I don't think I understand this....do you mean how far into the future an animal might be able to understand the consequences of its actions? > > Third, I don't undestand how an animal's being able to "predict the > consequences of its actions" would be related consequentially (you said > "therefore") with that animal's "limited notion of the future"- > Stan, I have just re-read your message and I am not entirely clear. Are you suggesting that animals have no notion of the future, limited notion, or great understanding of the future? Regards, Chris On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:42:03 +0000 Chris Sherwin wrote: > > Stan, > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. This is a computer simulated > rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for teaching vet students about learning > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about such teaching. I have managed > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he must stop pressing on the > food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this not mean he is predicting > the consequences of his actions and therefore has at least 'a limited notion of > the future'? > > Regards, > > Chris > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis wrote: > > > > > Anna Olsson- > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience pain?- > > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- And still > > further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when experiencing > > pain at any given level?- > > > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" and its > > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way too far in the > > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for instance, are we > > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says who?- On what > > evidence?- > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Anna Olsson" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard Rollin > > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences of a > > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering. Something > > like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no notion of > > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole world is pain. > > Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this discussion > > and where to find it? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > > Researcher > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > > 4150-180 Porto > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > > > > > ............................................................. > Dr C.M. Sherwin > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > University of Bristol, > Langford House, > Langford, > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology, Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, BS40 5DU, U.K. Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"rbogle@sonic.net" "Rick Bogle" 18-JAN-2005 11:08:35.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics "For me the problem has to do with the glib transferrence of these unverified musings into action plans for industry and government- We do see this happening mroe and more frequently nowdays, and I think it is a dangerous matter- I think we ought to be basing our recommednations for husbandry systems and animal-care regulations on more than a consensus of thoughts that haven't been proved scientfiically-" This seems a rather convienient view. Today, many husbandry systems seem to be based on a historical legacy of discounting or failing to consider notions about or concerns for even the possibility of animal consciousness. In this sense, while action plans for industry and government can be based on suggestive data regarding phenomena we cannot experience first hand, the status quo is based on tradition. The competeing arguments are really historical ignorance (some might say simple predjudice) vs science-based speculation and careful observation. Due to the ethical implications of some of the most reasonable and well-supported of the speculations, the precautionary principle suggests that we would proceed as if animal consciousness were verifiable, and modify our practices when proof suggests otherwise. (This, assuming that the others' suffering matters to us at all.) But this is opposite of the method suggested by the industry generally, which, I suspect, might never be open to changing their opinions regardless of any reasonable body of evidence. Rick Bogle Madison, Wisconsin > -----Original Message----- > From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:36 AM > To: Ray Stricklin; Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > Ray and others- > > You'll have to pardon me in one major respect- I join many of you in > enjoying thinking about and discussing matters such as the one Anna Olsson > has just brought to the table- Intriguing stuff- > > For me the problem has to do with the glib transferrence of these > unverified musings into action plans for industry and government- > We do see > this happening mroe and more frequently nowdays, and I think it is a > dangerous matter- I think we ought to be basing our recommednations for > husbandry systems and animal-care regulations on more than a consensus of > thoughts that haven't been proved scientfiically- > > -Stanley Curtis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Stricklin" > To: ; "Stanley Curtis" > Cc: "Anna Olsson" ; > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:24 AM > Subject: RE: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > There is a big, big difference between having an ability to > "predict the > > future" and "knowing that one can 'predict' the future." > > > > There is no question that animals have the ability "to know certain > > things" - even 'predict' certain things about their future; > and this in > fact > > can be genetic in some instances such as those factors influenced by > > photoperiod, etc. But how much ability do they have "to know > that they > > know?" > > > > We human animals "know that we know." And the really interesting > question > > thus becomes, do other animals also have this ability (or how much > ability > > do they have in the case of chimps at least). > > > > (Anna, I am fairly certain - but didn't take the time to > re-check - that > > Rollin talked about the topic of having a concept of the > future relative > to > > pain in his book _Animal Consciousness, Animal Pain & Science_. > However, > > this idea is not original to Rollin. I believe you can find > that Michael > Fox > > for example earlier discussed the idea that lacking a concept of the > future > > could enhance fear, along with a majority of the other topics Rollin > covers. > > In fact I expect if you trace back far enough, I think that you might > even > > find that the early Greeks talked about this enigma. If I > were to list > a > > reference for purposes of sending the reader to the best current > position on > > what it means to have a concept of the future relative to animals from > among > > philosophers of mind today, I would use Daniel Dennett and > probably cite > > _Consciousness Explained_ or _Kinds of Minds_. And would not trust my > > memory and would check of course to see exactly how he dealt with the > > question in each book.) > > > > Regards to all, > > > > Ray Stricklin > > University of Maryland > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:42 AM > > To: Stanley Curtis > > Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > Stan, > > > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. This is a > computer > > simulated > > rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for teaching vet students > about > > learning > > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about such teaching. I > have > > managed > > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he must > stop pressing > on > > the > > food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this not mean he is > > predicting > > the consequences of his actions and therefore has at least 'a limited > notion > > of > > the future'? > > > > Regards, > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis > wrote: > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson- > > > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience pain?- > > > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- > And still > > > further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when > experiencing > > > pain at any given level?- > > > > > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the > future" and its > > > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a > way too far > in > > the > > > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for > instance, > are > > we > > > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says who?- > On > > what > > > evidence?- > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Anna Olsson" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > > > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard > Rollin > > > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the > consequences of a > > > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering. > > Something > > > like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no > notion > > of > > > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its > whole world is > > pain. > > > Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this > > discussion > > > and where to find it? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > > > Researcher > > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > > > 4150-180 Porto > > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > University of Bristol, > > Langford House, > > Langford, > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > ---- > > From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 18-JAN-2005 11:09:48.14 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" CC: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin", IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Dear Stan, You are asking for 'knowledge' that is currently impossible for us to gain. Many people working in this area believe that non-human animals are sentient beings and should be treated accordingly. I think the 'knowledge' that you seek does not even exist for humans. I could be somewhat mischevious and ask you to prove to me that you suffer in a way which should stop me causing you various forms of harm, but, I choose to believe that a more ethically acceptable way of thinking is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (actually, my own thinking is that there is evidence but I accept your philosophical point of view that this is not 'Knowledge'). Regards, Chris On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:35:40 -0600 Stanley Curtis wrote: > > Ray and others- > > You'll have to pardon me in one major respect- I join many of you in > enjoying thinking about and discussing matters such as the one Anna Olsson > has just brought to the table- Intriguing stuff- > > For me the problem has to do with the glib transferrence of these > unverified musings into action plans for industry and government- We do see > this happening mroe and more frequently nowdays, and I think it is a > dangerous matter- I think we ought to be basing our recommednations for > husbandry systems and animal-care regulations on more than a consensus of > thoughts that haven't been proved scientfiically- > > -Stanley Curtis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Stricklin" > To: ; "Stanley Curtis" > Cc: "Anna Olsson" ; > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:24 AM > Subject: RE: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > There is a big, big difference between having an ability to "predict the > > future" and "knowing that one can 'predict' the future." > > > > There is no question that animals have the ability "to know certain > > things" - even 'predict' certain things about their future; and this in > fact > > can be genetic in some instances such as those factors influenced by > > photoperiod, etc. But how much ability do they have "to know that they > > know?" > > > > We human animals "know that we know." And the really interesting > question > > thus becomes, do other animals also have this ability (or how much > ability > > do they have in the case of chimps at least). > > > > (Anna, I am fairly certain - but didn't take the time to re-check - that > > Rollin talked about the topic of having a concept of the future relative > to > > pain in his book _Animal Consciousness, Animal Pain & Science_. > However, > > this idea is not original to Rollin. I believe you can find that Michael > Fox > > for example earlier discussed the idea that lacking a concept of the > future > > could enhance fear, along with a majority of the other topics Rollin > covers. > > In fact I expect if you trace back far enough, I think that you might > even > > find that the early Greeks talked about this enigma. If I were to list > a > > reference for purposes of sending the reader to the best current > position on > > what it means to have a concept of the future relative to animals from > among > > philosophers of mind today, I would use Daniel Dennett and probably cite > > _Consciousness Explained_ or _Kinds of Minds_. And would not trust my > > memory and would check of course to see exactly how he dealt with the > > question in each book.) > > > > Regards to all, > > > > Ray Stricklin > > University of Maryland > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:42 AM > > To: Stanley Curtis > > Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > Stan, > > > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. This is a > computer > > simulated > > rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for teaching vet students > about > > learning > > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about such teaching. I > have > > managed > > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he must stop pressing > on > > the > > food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this not mean he is > > predicting > > the consequences of his actions and therefore has at least 'a limited > notion > > of > > the future'? > > > > Regards, > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis > wrote: > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson- > > > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience pain?- > > > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- And still > > > further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when > experiencing > > > pain at any given level?- > > > > > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" and its > > > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way too far > in > > the > > > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for instance, > are > > we > > > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says who?- > On > > what > > > evidence?- > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Anna Olsson" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > > > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard > Rollin > > > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences of a > > > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering. > > Something > > > like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no > notion > > of > > > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole world is > > pain. > > > Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this > > discussion > > > and where to find it? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > > > Researcher > > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > > > 4150-180 Porto > > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > University of Bristol, > > Langford House, > > Langford, > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology, Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, BS40 5DU, U.K. Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 18-JAN-2005 11:28:23.18 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" CC: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin", IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Chris Sherwin- I simply think that, in the absecne of evidence, we shouldn't be acting as if there were evidence- Yes, I do believe that we need knowledge that "is currently impossible for us to gain" if we're going to base husbandry recommendations and regulations on the feelings axiom- I believe we need a new axiom as to what will much better serve as indicators of animal state of being- More soon- -Stanley Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Sherwin" To: "Stanley Curtis" Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ; "Anna Olsson" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:08 AM Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > Dear Stan, > > You are asking for 'knowledge' that is currently impossible for us to gain. Many > people working in this area believe that non-human animals are sentient beings and > should be treated accordingly. I think the 'knowledge' that you seek does not even > exist for humans. I could be somewhat mischevious and ask you to prove to me that > you suffer in a way which should stop me causing you various forms of harm, but, I > choose to believe that a more ethically acceptable way of thinking is that absence > of evidence is not evidence of absence (actually, my own thinking is that there is > evidence but I accept your philosophical point of view that this is not > 'Knowledge'). > > Regards, > > Chris > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:35:40 -0600 Stanley Curtis wrote: > > > > > Ray and others- > > > > You'll have to pardon me in one major respect- I join many of you in > > enjoying thinking about and discussing matters such as the one Anna Olsson > > has just brought to the table- Intriguing stuff- > > > > For me the problem has to do with the glib transferrence of these > > unverified musings into action plans for industry and government- We do see > > this happening mroe and more frequently nowdays, and I think it is a > > dangerous matter- I think we ought to be basing our recommednations for > > husbandry systems and animal-care regulations on more than a consensus of > > thoughts that haven't been proved scientfiically- > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ray Stricklin" > > To: ; "Stanley Curtis" > > Cc: "Anna Olsson" ; > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:24 AM > > Subject: RE: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > There is a big, big difference between having an ability to "predict the > > > future" and "knowing that one can 'predict' the future." > > > > > > There is no question that animals have the ability "to know certain > > > things" - even 'predict' certain things about their future; and this in > > fact > > > can be genetic in some instances such as those factors influenced by > > > photoperiod, etc. But how much ability do they have "to know that they > > > know?" > > > > > > We human animals "know that we know." And the really interesting > > question > > > thus becomes, do other animals also have this ability (or how much > > ability > > > do they have in the case of chimps at least). > > > > > > (Anna, I am fairly certain - but didn't take the time to re-check - that > > > Rollin talked about the topic of having a concept of the future relative > > to > > > pain in his book _Animal Consciousness, Animal Pain & Science_. > > However, > > > this idea is not original to Rollin. I believe you can find that Michael > > Fox > > > for example earlier discussed the idea that lacking a concept of the > > future > > > could enhance fear, along with a majority of the other topics Rollin > > covers. > > > In fact I expect if you trace back far enough, I think that you might > > even > > > find that the early Greeks talked about this enigma. If I were to list > > a > > > reference for purposes of sending the reader to the best current > > position on > > > what it means to have a concept of the future relative to animals from > > among > > > philosophers of mind today, I would use Daniel Dennett and probably cite > > > _Consciousness Explained_ or _Kinds of Minds_. And would not trust my > > > memory and would check of course to see exactly how he dealt with the > > > question in each book.) > > > > > > Regards to all, > > > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > University of Maryland > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:42 AM > > > To: Stanley Curtis > > > Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > Stan, > > > > > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. This is a > > computer > > > simulated > > > rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for teaching vet students > > about > > > learning > > > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about such teaching. I > > have > > > managed > > > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he must stop pressing > > on > > > the > > > food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this not mean he is > > > predicting > > > the consequences of his actions and therefore has at least 'a limited > > notion > > > of > > > the future'? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson- > > > > > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience pain?- > > > > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- And still > > > > further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when > > experiencing > > > > pain at any given level?- > > > > > > > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" and its > > > > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way too far > > in > > > the > > > > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for instance, > > are > > > we > > > > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says who?- > > On > > > what > > > > evidence?- > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Anna Olsson" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > > > > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard > > Rollin > > > > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences of a > > > > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering. > > > Something > > > > like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no > > notion > > > of > > > > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole world is > > > pain. > > > > Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this > > > discussion > > > > and where to find it? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > > > > Researcher > > > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > > > > 4150-180 Porto > > > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > University of Bristol, > > > Langford House, > > > Langford, > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > > > > > ............................................................. > Dr C.M. Sherwin > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > University of Bristol, > Langford House, > Langford, > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From: IN%"Wendy@southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk" "WendyHanson" 18-JAN-2005 12:07:53.33 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" CC: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin", IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics In my simple and humble view surely the fact that most higher mammals can associate current environmental stimuli with past feelings of pain or emotional trauma and take avoidance or defensive action is evidence that pain and emotional trauma cause suffering. Or am I missing the point? Going back to the original point by Anna I don't think animals have the cognitive ability to actively think about the future without an associative predictor of what is to come eg press the lever and a food pellet will follow. Wendy Wendy Hanson Dip. ACP{NOCN} Dip.Nutri.Med{RC} www.southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stanley Curtis" To: "Chris Sherwin" Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ; "Anna Olsson" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:28 PM Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > Chris Sherwin- > > I simply think that, in the absecne of evidence, we shouldn't be acting as > if there were evidence- Yes, I do believe that we need knowledge that "is > currently impossible for us to gain" if we're going to base husbandry > recommendations and regulations on the feelings axiom- I believe we need a > new axiom as to what will much better serve as indicators of animal state of > being- More soon- > > -Stanley Curtis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Sherwin" > To: "Stanley Curtis" > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ; > "Anna Olsson" ; > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:08 AM > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > Dear Stan, > > > > You are asking for 'knowledge' that is currently impossible for us to > gain. Many > > people working in this area believe that non-human animals are sentient > beings and > > should be treated accordingly. I think the 'knowledge' that you seek > does not even > > exist for humans. I could be somewhat mischevious and ask you to prove > to me that > > you suffer in a way which should stop me causing you various forms of > harm, but, I > > choose to believe that a more ethically acceptable way of thinking is > that absence > > of evidence is not evidence of absence (actually, my own thinking is > that there is > > evidence but I accept your philosophical point of view that this is not > > 'Knowledge'). > > > > Regards, > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:35:40 -0600 Stanley Curtis > wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray and others- > > > > > > You'll have to pardon me in one major respect- I join many of you > in > > > enjoying thinking about and discussing matters such as the one Anna > Olsson > > > has just brought to the table- Intriguing stuff- > > > > > > For me the problem has to do with the glib transferrence of these > > > unverified musings into action plans for industry and government- We > do see > > > this happening mroe and more frequently nowdays, and I think it is a > > > dangerous matter- I think we ought to be basing our recommednations > for > > > husbandry systems and animal-care regulations on more than a consensus > of > > > thoughts that haven't been proved scientfiically- > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Ray Stricklin" > > > To: ; "Stanley Curtis" > > > > Cc: "Anna Olsson" ; > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:24 AM > > > Subject: RE: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a big, big difference between having an ability to > "predict the > > > > future" and "knowing that one can 'predict' the future." > > > > > > > > There is no question that animals have the ability "to know > certain > > > > things" - even 'predict' certain things about their future; and > this in > > > fact > > > > can be genetic in some instances such as those factors influenced > by > > > > photoperiod, etc. But how much ability do they have "to know that > they > > > > know?" > > > > > > > > We human animals "know that we know." And the really interesting > > > question > > > > thus becomes, do other animals also have this ability (or how much > > > ability > > > > do they have in the case of chimps at least). > > > > > > > > (Anna, I am fairly certain - but didn't take the time to > re-check - that > > > > Rollin talked about the topic of having a concept of the future > relative > > > to > > > > pain in his book _Animal Consciousness, Animal Pain & Science_. > > > However, > > > > this idea is not original to Rollin. I believe you can find that > Michael > > > Fox > > > > for example earlier discussed the idea that lacking a concept of > the > > > future > > > > could enhance fear, along with a majority of the other topics > Rollin > > > covers. > > > > In fact I expect if you trace back far enough, I think that you > might > > > even > > > > find that the early Greeks talked about this enigma. If I were to > list > > > a > > > > reference for purposes of sending the reader to the best current > > > position on > > > > what it means to have a concept of the future relative to animals > from > > > among > > > > philosophers of mind today, I would use Daniel Dennett and > probably cite > > > > _Consciousness Explained_ or _Kinds of Minds_. And would not > trust my > > > > memory and would check of course to see exactly how he dealt with > the > > > > question in each book.) > > > > > > > > Regards to all, > > > > > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > University of Maryland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:42 AM > > > > To: Stanley Curtis > > > > Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stan, > > > > > > > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. This is a > > > computer > > > > simulated > > > > rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for teaching vet > students > > > about > > > > learning > > > > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about such teaching. > I > > > have > > > > managed > > > > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he must stop > pressing > > > on > > > > the > > > > food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this not mean he > is > > > > predicting > > > > the consequences of his actions and therefore has at least 'a > limited > > > notion > > > > of > > > > the future'? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson- > > > > > > > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience > pain?- > > > > > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- And > still > > > > > further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when > > > experiencing > > > > > pain at any given level?- > > > > > > > > > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" > and its > > > > > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way > too far > > > in > > > > the > > > > > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for > instance, > > > are > > > > we > > > > > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says > who?- > > > On > > > > what > > > > > evidence?- > > > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Anna Olsson" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > > > > > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard > > > Rollin > > > > > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences > of a > > > > > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for > suffering. > > > > Something > > > > > like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has > no > > > notion > > > > of > > > > > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole > world is > > > > pain. > > > > > Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this > > > > discussion > > > > > and where to find it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > > > > > Researcher > > > > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > > > > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > > > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > > > > > 4150-180 Porto > > > > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > > > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > > University of Bristol, > > > > Langford House, > > > > Langford, > > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > University of Bristol, > > Langford House, > > Langford, > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---- > > From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 18-JAN-2005 12:27:12.94 To: IN%"Wendy@southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk" "WendyHanson", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" CC: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin", IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Wendy Hanson and all- I think you're not missing the point- As I said earlier, I'm willing to stipulate that vertebrate animals feel pain and find it aversive- But how does that pain feel to the animal?- How much does the animal suffer?- I gree with those who say, as Chris Sherwin did, that nowadays we can't possibly answer that question- Again, I have fun as I fall asleep at night thinking philosophically about possibilites in these matters- But in my day job I'm coming to the discussion as an applied animal scientist, interested in applying science-informed knowledge to bettering the lives of the animals we keep- In so doing, we must draw lines, because some pain, some suffering is inevitable- Life is, after all, a struggle, no matter where or under what circumstacnes an animal may be living- But, in our production systems, just how much suffering is ethically permissible?- And how can we possibly hope to stay under that ethical threshold if we can't draw that line?- -Stanley Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "WendyHanson" To: "Stanley Curtis" ; "Chris Sherwin" Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ; "Anna Olsson" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > In my simple and humble view surely the fact that most higher mammals can > associate current environmental stimuli with past feelings of pain or > emotional trauma and take avoidance or defensive action is evidence that > pain and emotional trauma cause suffering. Or am I missing the point? > > Going back to the original point by Anna I don't think animals have the > cognitive ability to actively think about the future without an associative > predictor of what is to come eg press the lever and a food pellet will > follow. > > Wendy > > > > Wendy Hanson > Dip. ACP{NOCN} Dip.Nutri.Med{RC} > www.southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stanley Curtis" > To: "Chris Sherwin" > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ; "Anna > Olsson" ; > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:28 PM > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > Chris Sherwin- > > > > I simply think that, in the absecne of evidence, we shouldn't be acting > as > > if there were evidence- Yes, I do believe that we need knowledge that "is > > currently impossible for us to gain" if we're going to base husbandry > > recommendations and regulations on the feelings axiom- I believe we need > a > > new axiom as to what will much better serve as indicators of animal state > of > > being- More soon- > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chris Sherwin" > > To: "Stanley Curtis" > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ; > > "Anna Olsson" ; > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:08 AM > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Stan, > > > > > > You are asking for 'knowledge' that is currently impossible for us to > > gain. Many > > > people working in this area believe that non-human animals are > sentient > > beings and > > > should be treated accordingly. I think the 'knowledge' that you seek > > does not even > > > exist for humans. I could be somewhat mischevious and ask you to > prove > > to me that > > > you suffer in a way which should stop me causing you various forms of > > harm, but, I > > > choose to believe that a more ethically acceptable way of thinking is > > that absence > > > of evidence is not evidence of absence (actually, my own thinking is > > that there is > > > evidence but I accept your philosophical point of view that this is > not > > > 'Knowledge'). > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:35:40 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Ray and others- > > > > > > > > You'll have to pardon me in one major respect- I join many of you > > in > > > > enjoying thinking about and discussing matters such as the one Anna > > Olsson > > > > has just brought to the table- Intriguing stuff- > > > > > > > > For me the problem has to do with the glib transferrence of these > > > > unverified musings into action plans for industry and government- > We > > do see > > > > this happening mroe and more frequently nowdays, and I think it is a > > > > dangerous matter- I think we ought to be basing our recommednations > > for > > > > husbandry systems and animal-care regulations on more than a > consensus > > of > > > > thoughts that haven't been proved scientfiically- > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Ray Stricklin" > > > > To: ; "Stanley Curtis" > > > > > > Cc: "Anna Olsson" ; > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:24 AM > > > > Subject: RE: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a big, big difference between having an ability to > > "predict the > > > > > future" and "knowing that one can 'predict' the future." > > > > > > > > > > There is no question that animals have the ability "to know > > certain > > > > > things" - even 'predict' certain things about their future; and > > this in > > > > fact > > > > > can be genetic in some instances such as those factors > influenced > > by > > > > > photoperiod, etc. But how much ability do they have "to know > that > > they > > > > > know?" > > > > > > > > > > We human animals "know that we know." And the really interesting > > > > question > > > > > thus becomes, do other animals also have this ability (or how > much > > > > ability > > > > > do they have in the case of chimps at least). > > > > > > > > > > (Anna, I am fairly certain - but didn't take the time to > > re-check - that > > > > > Rollin talked about the topic of having a concept of the future > > relative > > > > to > > > > > pain in his book _Animal Consciousness, Animal Pain & Science_. > > > > However, > > > > > this idea is not original to Rollin. I believe you can find that > > Michael > > > > Fox > > > > > for example earlier discussed the idea that lacking a concept of > > the > > > > future > > > > > could enhance fear, along with a majority of the other topics > > Rollin > > > > covers. > > > > > In fact I expect if you trace back far enough, I think that you > > might > > > > even > > > > > find that the early Greeks talked about this enigma. If I were > to > > list > > > > a > > > > > reference for purposes of sending the reader to the best current > > > > position on > > > > > what it means to have a concept of the future relative to > animals > > from > > > > among > > > > > philosophers of mind today, I would use Daniel Dennett and > > probably cite > > > > > _Consciousness Explained_ or _Kinds of Minds_. And would not > > trust my > > > > > memory and would check of course to see exactly how he dealt > with > > the > > > > > question in each book.) > > > > > > > > > > Regards to all, > > > > > > > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > University of Maryland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:42 AM > > > > > To: Stanley Curtis > > > > > Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stan, > > > > > > > > > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. This is a > > > > computer > > > > > simulated > > > > > rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for teaching vet > > students > > > > about > > > > > learning > > > > > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about such > teaching. > > I > > > > have > > > > > managed > > > > > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he must stop > > pressing > > > > on > > > > > the > > > > > food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this not mean > he > > is > > > > > predicting > > > > > the consequences of his actions and therefore has at least 'a > > limited > > > > notion > > > > > of > > > > > the future'? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson- > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience > > pain?- > > > > > > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- > And > > still > > > > > > further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when > > > > experiencing > > > > > > pain at any given level?- > > > > > > > > > > > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" > > and its > > > > > > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way > > too far > > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for > > instance, > > > > are > > > > > we > > > > > > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says > > who?- > > > > On > > > > > what > > > > > > evidence?- > > > > > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Anna Olsson" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > > > > > > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is > Bernard > > > > Rollin > > > > > > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the > consequences > > of a > > > > > > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for > > suffering. > > > > > Something > > > > > > like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has > > no > > > > notion > > > > > of > > > > > > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole > > world is > > > > > pain. > > > > > > Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of > this > > > > > discussion > > > > > > and where to find it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > > > > > > Researcher > > > > > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > > > > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > > > > > > 4150-180 Porto > > > > > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > > > > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > -- > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > > > University of Bristol, > > > > > Langford House, > > > > > Langford, > > > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > University of Bristol, > > > Langford House, > > > Langford, > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > ---- > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From: IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 18-JAN-2005 16:37:23.49 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Anna I've not read all the discussion that's arisen from this request yet, but I think you may be referring to the Duncan and Petherick paper: Duncan, I. J. H. and J. C. Petherick (1991). "The implications of cognitive processes for animal welfare." Journal of Animal Science 69: 5017-5022. On page 5020 and 5021 we talk about an animal's possible inability to foresee and end to a state, such as pain, or to think about other things to distract it from the feeling of pain. I'll now look at the other e-mails! Regards Carol Carol Petherick Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Department of Primary Industries & Fisheries Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390 Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: Anna Olsson [mailto:olsson@ibmc.up.pt] Sent: Tuesday, 18 January 2005 9:23 PM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: citation on animal ethics Dear all, One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard Rollin (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences of a limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering. Something like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no notion of that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole world is pain. Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this discussion and where to find it? Regards, Anna Olsson Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. From: IN%"hilde@andenaes.com" "Hilde Com" 18-JAN-2005 16:52:59.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" CC: Subj: SV: citation on animal ethics Hi all, I understand pain as something that helps the animal, because pain has a function. What would be the point of feeling pain if the animal did not suffer when in pain? Only if the pain is experienced as something negative will it have an effect on the animal, so that the animal behaves in the best possible way. Best regards, Hilde -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: Stanley Curtis [mailto:] Sendt: 18. januar 2005 19:27 Til: WendyHanson; Chris Sherwin Kopi: Ray Stricklin; Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk; Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Emne: Re: citation on animal ethics Wendy Hanson and all- I think you're not missing the point- As I said earlier, I'm willing to stipulate that vertebrate animals feel pain and find it aversive- But how does that pain feel to the animal?- How much does the animal suffer?- I gree with those who say, as Chris Sherwin did, that nowadays we can't possibly answer that question- Again, I have fun as I fall asleep at night thinking philosophically about possibilites in these matters- But in my day job I'm coming to the discussion as an applied animal scientist, interested in applying science-informed knowledge to bettering the lives of the animals we keep- In so doing, we must draw lines, because some pain, some suffering is inevitable- Life is, after all, a struggle, no matter where or under what circumstacnes an animal may be living- But, in our production systems, just how much suffering is ethically permissible?- And how can we possibly hope to stay under that ethical threshold if we can't draw that line?- -Stanley Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "WendyHanson" To: "Stanley Curtis" ; "Chris Sherwin" Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ; "Anna Olsson" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > In my simple and humble view surely the fact that most higher mammals can > associate current environmental stimuli with past feelings of pain or > emotional trauma and take avoidance or defensive action is evidence that > pain and emotional trauma cause suffering. Or am I missing the point? > > Going back to the original point by Anna I don't think animals have the > cognitive ability to actively think about the future without an associative > predictor of what is to come eg press the lever and a food pellet will > follow. > > Wendy > > > > Wendy Hanson > Dip. ACP{NOCN} Dip.Nutri.Med{RC} > www.southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stanley Curtis" > To: "Chris Sherwin" > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ; "Anna > Olsson" ; > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:28 PM > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > Chris Sherwin- > > > > I simply think that, in the absecne of evidence, we shouldn't be acting > as > > if there were evidence- Yes, I do believe that we need knowledge that "is > > currently impossible for us to gain" if we're going to base husbandry > > recommendations and regulations on the feelings axiom- I believe we need > a > > new axiom as to what will much better serve as indicators of animal state > of > > being- More soon- > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chris Sherwin" > > To: "Stanley Curtis" > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ; > > "Anna Olsson" ; > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:08 AM > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Stan, > > > > > > You are asking for 'knowledge' that is currently impossible for us to > > gain. Many > > > people working in this area believe that non-human animals are > sentient > > beings and > > > should be treated accordingly. I think the 'knowledge' that you seek > > does not even > > > exist for humans. I could be somewhat mischevious and ask you to > prove > > to me that > > > you suffer in a way which should stop me causing you various forms of > > harm, but, I > > > choose to believe that a more ethically acceptable way of thinking is > > that absence > > > of evidence is not evidence of absence (actually, my own thinking is > > that there is > > > evidence but I accept your philosophical point of view that this is > not > > > 'Knowledge'). > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:35:40 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Ray and others- > > > > > > > > You'll have to pardon me in one major respect- I join many of you > > in > > > > enjoying thinking about and discussing matters such as the one Anna > > Olsson > > > > has just brought to the table- Intriguing stuff- > > > > > > > > For me the problem has to do with the glib transferrence of these > > > > unverified musings into action plans for industry and government- > We > > do see > > > > this happening mroe and more frequently nowdays, and I think it is a > > > > dangerous matter- I think we ought to be basing our recommednations > > for > > > > husbandry systems and animal-care regulations on more than a > consensus > > of > > > > thoughts that haven't been proved scientfiically- > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Ray Stricklin" > > > > To: ; "Stanley Curtis" > > > > > > Cc: "Anna Olsson" ; > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:24 AM > > > > Subject: RE: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a big, big difference between having an ability to > > "predict the > > > > > future" and "knowing that one can 'predict' the future." > > > > > > > > > > There is no question that animals have the ability "to know > > certain > > > > > things" - even 'predict' certain things about their future; and > > this in > > > > fact > > > > > can be genetic in some instances such as those factors > influenced > > by > > > > > photoperiod, etc. But how much ability do they have "to know > that > > they > > > > > know?" > > > > > > > > > > We human animals "know that we know." And the really interesting > > > > question > > > > > thus becomes, do other animals also have this ability (or how > much > > > > ability > > > > > do they have in the case of chimps at least). > > > > > > > > > > (Anna, I am fairly certain - but didn't take the time to > > re-check - that > > > > > Rollin talked about the topic of having a concept of the future > > relative > > > > to > > > > > pain in his book _Animal Consciousness, Animal Pain & Science_. > > > > However, > > > > > this idea is not original to Rollin. I believe you can find that > > Michael > > > > Fox > > > > > for example earlier discussed the idea that lacking a concept of > > the > > > > future > > > > > could enhance fear, along with a majority of the other topics > > Rollin > > > > covers. > > > > > In fact I expect if you trace back far enough, I think that you > > might > > > > even > > > > > find that the early Greeks talked about this enigma. If I were > to > > list > > > > a > > > > > reference for purposes of sending the reader to the best current > > > > position on > > > > > what it means to have a concept of the future relative to > animals > > from > > > > among > > > > > philosophers of mind today, I would use Daniel Dennett and > > probably cite > > > > > _Consciousness Explained_ or _Kinds of Minds_. And would not > > trust my > > > > > memory and would check of course to see exactly how he dealt > with > > the > > > > > question in each book.) > > > > > > > > > > Regards to all, > > > > > > > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > University of Maryland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:42 AM > > > > > To: Stanley Curtis > > > > > Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stan, > > > > > > > > > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. This is a > > > > computer > > > > > simulated > > > > > rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for teaching vet > > students > > > > about > > > > > learning > > > > > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about such > teaching. > > I > > > > have > > > > > managed > > > > > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he must stop > > pressing > > > > on > > > > > the > > > > > food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this not mean > he > > is > > > > > predicting > > > > > the consequences of his actions and therefore has at least 'a > > limited > > > > notion > > > > > of > > > > > the future'? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson- > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience > > pain?- > > > > > > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- > And > > still > > > > > > further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when > > > > experiencing > > > > > > pain at any given level?- > > > > > > > > > > > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" > > and its > > > > > > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way > > too far > > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for > > instance, > > > > are > > > > > we > > > > > > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says > > who?- > > > > On > > > > > what > > > > > > evidence?- > > > > > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Anna Olsson" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > > > > > > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is > Bernard > > > > Rollin > > > > > > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the > consequences > > of a > > > > > > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for > > suffering. > > > > > Something > > > > > > like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has > > no > > > > notion > > > > > of > > > > > > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole > > world is > > > > > pain. > > > > > > Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of > this > > > > > discussion > > > > > > and where to find it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > > > > > > Researcher > > > > > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > > > > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > > > > > > 4150-180 Porto > > > > > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > > > > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > -- > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > > > University of Bristol, > > > > > Langford House, > > > > > Langford, > > > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > University of Bristol, > > > Langford House, > > > Langford, > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > ---- > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 18-JAN-2005 17:02:19.04 To: IN%"hilde@andenaes.com" "Hilde Com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Hilde Com- Amen- -Stanley Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hilde Com" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 4:52 PM Subject: SV: citation on animal ethics > Hi all, > > I understand pain as something that helps the animal, because pain has a > function. What would be the point of feeling pain if the animal did not > suffer when in pain? Only if the pain is experienced as something negative > will it have an effect on the animal, so that the animal behaves in the best > possible way. > > Best regards, > > Hilde > > > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: Stanley Curtis [mailto:] > Sendt: 18. januar 2005 19:27 > Til: WendyHanson; Chris Sherwin > Kopi: Ray Stricklin; Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk; Anna Olsson; > applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Emne: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > Wendy Hanson and all- > > I think you're not missing the point- As I said earlier, I'm willing to > stipulate that vertebrate animals feel pain and find it aversive- But how > does that pain feel to the animal?- How much does the animal suffer?- I > gree with those who say, as Chris Sherwin did, that nowadays we can't > possibly answer that question- > > Again, I have fun as I fall asleep at night thinking philosophically about > possibilites in these matters- But in my day job I'm coming to the > discussion as an applied animal scientist, interested in applying > science-informed knowledge to bettering the lives of the animals we keep- > In so doing, we must draw lines, because some pain, some suffering is > inevitable- Life is, after all, a struggle, no matter where or under what > circumstacnes an animal may be living- But, in our production systems, just > how much suffering is ethically permissible?- And how can we possibly hope > to stay under that ethical threshold if we can't draw that line?- > > -Stanley Curtis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "WendyHanson" > To: "Stanley Curtis" ; "Chris Sherwin" > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ; > "Anna Olsson" ; > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:11 PM > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > In my simple and humble view surely the fact that most higher mammals > can > > associate current environmental stimuli with past feelings of pain or > > emotional trauma and take avoidance or defensive action is evidence > that > > pain and emotional trauma cause suffering. Or am I missing the point? > > > > Going back to the original point by Anna I don't think animals have the > > cognitive ability to actively think about the future without an > associative > > predictor of what is to come eg press the lever and a food pellet will > > follow. > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > Wendy Hanson > > Dip. ACP{NOCN} Dip.Nutri.Med{RC} > > www.southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Stanley Curtis" > > To: "Chris Sherwin" > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ; > "Anna > > Olsson" ; > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:28 PM > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris Sherwin- > > > > > > I simply think that, in the absecne of evidence, we shouldn't be > acting > > as > > > if there were evidence- Yes, I do believe that we need knowledge that > "is > > > currently impossible for us to gain" if we're going to base husbandry > > > recommendations and regulations on the feelings axiom- I believe we > need > > a > > > new axiom as to what will much better serve as indicators of animal > state > > of > > > being- More soon- > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Chris Sherwin" > > > To: "Stanley Curtis" > > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; > ; > > > "Anna Olsson" ; > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:08 AM > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Stan, > > > > > > > > You are asking for 'knowledge' that is currently impossible for us > to > > > gain. Many > > > > people working in this area believe that non-human animals are > > sentient > > > beings and > > > > should be treated accordingly. I think the 'knowledge' that you > seek > > > does not even > > > > exist for humans. I could be somewhat mischevious and ask you to > > prove > > > to me that > > > > you suffer in a way which should stop me causing you various forms > of > > > harm, but, I > > > > choose to believe that a more ethically acceptable way of thinking > is > > > that absence > > > > of evidence is not evidence of absence (actually, my own thinking > is > > > that there is > > > > evidence but I accept your philosophical point of view that this > is > > not > > > > 'Knowledge'). > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:35:40 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray and others- > > > > > > > > > > You'll have to pardon me in one major respect- I join many of > you > > > in > > > > > enjoying thinking about and discussing matters such as the one > Anna > > > Olsson > > > > > has just brought to the table- Intriguing stuff- > > > > > > > > > > For me the problem has to do with the glib transferrence of > these > > > > > unverified musings into action plans for industry and > government- > > We > > > do see > > > > > this happening mroe and more frequently nowdays, and I think it > is a > > > > > dangerous matter- I think we ought to be basing our > recommednations > > > for > > > > > husbandry systems and animal-care regulations on more than a > > consensus > > > of > > > > > thoughts that haven't been proved scientfiically- > > > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Ray Stricklin" > > > > > To: ; "Stanley Curtis" > > > > > > > > Cc: "Anna Olsson" ; > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:24 AM > > > > > Subject: RE: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a big, big difference between having an ability to > > > "predict the > > > > > > future" and "knowing that one can 'predict' the future." > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no question that animals have the ability "to know > > > certain > > > > > > things" - even 'predict' certain things about their future; > and > > > this in > > > > > fact > > > > > > can be genetic in some instances such as those factors > > influenced > > > by > > > > > > photoperiod, etc. But how much ability do they have "to > know > > that > > > they > > > > > > know?" > > > > > > > > > > > > We human animals "know that we know." And the really > interesting > > > > > question > > > > > > thus becomes, do other animals also have this ability (or > how > > much > > > > > ability > > > > > > do they have in the case of chimps at least). > > > > > > > > > > > > (Anna, I am fairly certain - but didn't take the time to > > > re-check - that > > > > > > Rollin talked about the topic of having a concept of the > future > > > relative > > > > > to > > > > > > pain in his book _Animal Consciousness, Animal Pain & > Science_. > > > > > However, > > > > > > this idea is not original to Rollin. I believe you can find > that > > > Michael > > > > > Fox > > > > > > for example earlier discussed the idea that lacking a > concept of > > > the > > > > > future > > > > > > could enhance fear, along with a majority of the other > topics > > > Rollin > > > > > covers. > > > > > > In fact I expect if you trace back far enough, I think that > you > > > might > > > > > even > > > > > > find that the early Greeks talked about this enigma. If I > were > > to > > > list > > > > > a > > > > > > reference for purposes of sending the reader to the best > current > > > > > position on > > > > > > what it means to have a concept of the future relative to > > animals > > > from > > > > > among > > > > > > philosophers of mind today, I would use Daniel Dennett and > > > probably cite > > > > > > _Consciousness Explained_ or _Kinds of Minds_. And would > not > > > trust my > > > > > > memory and would check of course to see exactly how he dealt > > with > > > the > > > > > > question in each book.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards to all, > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > University of Maryland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:42 AM > > > > > > To: Stanley Curtis > > > > > > Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > > > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stan, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. This > is a > > > > > computer > > > > > > simulated > > > > > > rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for teaching vet > > > students > > > > > about > > > > > > learning > > > > > > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about such > > teaching. > > > I > > > > > have > > > > > > managed > > > > > > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he must > stop > > > pressing > > > > > on > > > > > > the > > > > > > food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this not > mean > > he > > > is > > > > > > predicting > > > > > > the consequences of his actions and therefore has at least > 'a > > > limited > > > > > notion > > > > > > of > > > > > > the future'? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they > experience > > > pain?- > > > > > > > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- > > And > > > still > > > > > > > further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" > when > > > > > experiencing > > > > > > > pain at any given level?- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the > future" > > > and its > > > > > > > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a > way > > > too far > > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, > for > > > instance, > > > > > are > > > > > > we > > > > > > > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- > Says > > > who?- > > > > > On > > > > > > what > > > > > > > evidence?- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Anna Olsson" > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > > > > > > > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is > > Bernard > > > > > Rollin > > > > > > > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the > > consequences > > > of a > > > > > > > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for > > > suffering. > > > > > > Something > > > > > > > like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it > has > > > no > > > > > notion > > > > > > of > > > > > > > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its > whole > > > world is > > > > > > pain. > > > > > > > Can anyone on this list help me with the original author > of > > this > > > > > > discussion > > > > > > > and where to find it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > Researcher > > > > > > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > > > > > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > > > > > > > 4150-180 Porto > > > > > > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > > > > > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > > > > University of Bristol, > > > > > > Langford House, > > > > > > Langford, > > > > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > > University of Bristol, > > > > Langford House, > > > > Langford, > > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---- > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 18-JAN-2005 19:07:21.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: FW: citation on animal ethics -----Original Message----- From: Croney, Candace [mailto:candace.croney@oregonstate.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 7:40 PM To: ws31@umail.umd.edu Subject: FW: citation on animal ethics Ray, Could you forward this to the list? I can't for some reason. Candace Croney, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Animal Behavior/Bioethics Oregon State University Phone: (541) 737-1401 Email: candace.croney@orst.edu "That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!" --Calvin and Hobbes -----Original Message----- From: Croney, Candace Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 4:39 PM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: FW: citation on animal ethics From: Croney, Candace Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 4:31 PM To: Anna Olsson; Stanley Curtis; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: citation on animal ethics Anna, In addition to Ray Stricklin's comments, some of these ideas may also trace back to Peter Singer's replaceability argument where he links the notion of "unconscious animals" with no interests in their own future to suffering, harm and death. Candace Croney, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Animal Behavior/Bioethics Oregon State University Phone: (541) 737-1401 Email: candace.croney@orst.edu "That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!" --Calvin and Hobbes -----Original Message----- From: Anna Olsson [mailto:olsson@ibmc.up.pt] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 8:05 AM To: Stanley Curtis; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics Dear Stanley and others, However provocative I may be at times, this time I was honestly only trying to track down a discussion / quotation that I don't necessarily agree with. But obviously I can't resist a response... I don't think you need to "think" about pain to suffer from it, if you define "thinking" as something analogue to our verbal thinking "what a terrible headache" or "I wonder if that stomach pain is something serious". It's possible to conceive of consciousness at several levels: we as adult verbal humans are able to feel what we feel and to reflect upon it whereas nonverbal mammals and preverbal children may only be able to feel, without reflecting upon it. Neurobiologist Antonio Damasio has devoted an entire book to the subject (The feeling of what happens - Body, emotion and the making of consciousness; highly recommendable), and my quote from his book won't give justice to the topic but is highly relevant: "in my proposal, extended consciousness rides on top of the foundational core consciousness which we and other species have long had and continue to have. --- When we think of the greatness of consciousness we have extended consciousness in mind. When we slip and say that consciousness is a distinctively human quality, we are thinking of extended consciousness at its highest reaches, not of core consciousness, and we should be forgiven for the arrogance: extended consciousness is indeed a prodigious function, and, at its peak, it is uniquely human. ---- Extended consciousness is everything core consciousness is, only bigger and better, and it does nothing but grow across evolution and across a lifetime of experience in each individual. If core consciousness allows you to know for a transient moment that it is you seeing a bird in flight or that it is you having a sensation of pain, extended consciousness places these same esperiences in a broader canvas and over a longer period of time. Extended consciousness stil hinges on the same core "you", but that "you" is now connected to the lived past and anticipated future that are part of your autobiographical record. Rather than just accessing the fact that you have pain, you can also survey the facts concernining where the pain is (the elbow), what caused it (tennis), when you last had it before (three years ago, or was it four?), who has also had it recently (Aunt Maggie), the doctor she went to (Dr. May, or was it Dr. Nichols?), the fact that you will not be able to play with Jack tomorrow)" Damasio 2000 The feeling of what happens - Body, emotion and the making of consciousness As for animals' notion of time, Marek Spinka did an interesting experiments on sows at the University of Guelph, maybe Marek himself would like to comment on it? I recently wrote something related about sceptical views on the subjective experience of animals, which I paste below for those that have the patience to read more. Regards, Anna There are those that defend that the subjective experiences of animals are very different from humans, so different that any inferences from our experience of what it is to be a human are invalid. Dutch psychologist Bob Bermond (eg 2001) is one of the critics. A central part of his argument uses the parallel with humans with lesions to the prefrontal cortex. One of the consequences of such lesions is that patients although aware of the nociception are not bothered by pain . What happens is, it seems, that the emotional response to the pain disappears. Bermond therefore argues that, since no other animals than the great apes have the prefrontal cortex development that in humans is crucial for emotional pain reaction, most animals are not able to suffer from pain. If Bermond is correct and only humans and other great apes are able to experience pain as a negative mental state, it is difficult to understand the evolutionary role of pain in other vertebrates. In general, a character is preserved in evolution only if it increases fitness of its possessor, that is if the individuals showing this character leave more offspring than others. It is generally assumed that the biological function of pain is to aid survival, through promoting behaviours which are useful in situations where pain appear, such as withdrawing from the pain-causing agent, protecting an injured body part or resting when suffering from an infection. But in order to have this function, pain must, it seems, produce an aversive emotive experience, that the animal strives to avoid, and not only peripheral nociception. If pain was nothing more than peripheral nociception to non-primate animals, they would be expected to show a response similar to that of humans with congenital pain indifference syndrome - but the maladaptive and seriously self-injurious behaviour typical of such patients is very different from how a normal animal reacts to noxious stimuli. It appears the type of consciousness Bermond claims to be necessary for emotional response to pain is one which enables an individual to reflect on the awareness of the response of its body (roughly comparable to what Antonio Damasio (2000) terms 'extended consciousness' and indeed in accordance with Bermond attributes only to a few animal species). But the emotional response to pain is in itself the awareness of the body response. To have an emotional response, there is no need to be able to reflect upon it - "the foundational core consciousness which we and other species have long had and continue to have" (Damasio 2000) is sufficient. Olsson, 2005, forthcoming in Breviarium de Sociedade Portuguesa de Ética Ambiental *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 18-01-2005 at 9:32 Stanley Curtis wrote: >Anna Olsson- > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they experience pain?- >Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- And still >further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" when experiencing >pain at any given level?- > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" and its >implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way too far in >the >direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, for instance, are >we >sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- Says who?- On >what >evidence?- > > -Stanley Curtis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anna Olsson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > Dear all, > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is Bernard Rollin >(although I might be wrong here), has discussed the consequences of a >limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for suffering. Something >like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it has no notion of >that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its whole world is >pain. >Can anyone on this list help me with the original author of this discussion >and where to find it? > > > > Regards, > > Anna Olsson > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > Researcher > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > 4150-180 Porto > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >---- Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 18-JAN-2005 20:12:14.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the future" and its > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a way too far in the > direction of anthropomorphization- > > -Stanley Curtis I always have a great deal of trouble with this atitude of people dismissing much thought as 'anthropomorphising'. I suspect that this is because of the prevailing Judeo-Christianity or our society ("Man" and the animals over whom he has dominion -- rather than "man" as an animal.) It seems to me that if we can use other animals to test drugs, to develop learning theory, to study effects of social isolation, and such like then we are a priori we are acknowledging the similarities between other animals' and Homo sapiens' physiology, neurology, and behaviour. Similarly, although we acknowledge teh differences in behaviour, etc between different species we often assume great similarlities between more closely related species. (Hey we all know that Lions and Tigers hare different, but we also know they are more similarities bewtwwen the two than we would expect between lions and zebras. Though we might expect the zebra to have more similarities with horses or donkeys. As far as we know, few (or maybe no) other animals other than man have a sense of their own inevitable mortality. This seems to me to be an appropriate assumption 'at this stage'. But ti also seems to me to be a very appropriate assumption to make that animals experience fear, pain, love, etc every bit as much as Homo sapiens. Emotions do not need a verbal language. I suspect that the notion of the inevitability of death does need language -- and even then, having been young myself once, I know that our rational brain might tell us that old age and death is inevitable (provided death doesn't beat old age) but emotionally young people do not really understand it. And then of course many people never do learn to appreciated the inevitability of death, but sincerely believe in an 'after-life'. For all we know, other animals might also sincerely believe in an after-life. Jenny From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 20-JAN-2005 08:35:45.59 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Stanley, At the risk of seeming provocative, but with the best of intentions, can I ask why you draw the line at only vertebrates feeling pain? Is this based on 'science-informed knowledge'? Respectfully yours, Chris Sherwin On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:26:34 -0600 Stanley Curtis wrote: > > Wendy Hanson and all- > > I think you're not missing the point- As I said earlier, I'm willing to > stipulate that vertebrate animals feel pain and find it aversive- But how > does that pain feel to the animal?- How much does the animal suffer?- I > gree with those who say, as Chris Sherwin did, that nowadays we can't > possibly answer that question- > > Again, I have fun as I fall asleep at night thinking philosophically about > possibilites in these matters- But in my day job I'm coming to the > discussion as an applied animal scientist, interested in applying > science-informed knowledge to bettering the lives of the animals we keep- > In so doing, we must draw lines, because some pain, some suffering is > inevitable- Life is, after all, a struggle, no matter where or under what > circumstacnes an animal may be living- But, in our production systems, just > how much suffering is ethically permissible?- And how can we possibly hope > to stay under that ethical threshold if we can't draw that line?- > > -Stanley Curtis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "WendyHanson" > To: "Stanley Curtis" ; "Chris Sherwin" > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ; > "Anna Olsson" ; > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:11 PM > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > In my simple and humble view surely the fact that most higher mammals > can > > associate current environmental stimuli with past feelings of pain or > > emotional trauma and take avoidance or defensive action is evidence > that > > pain and emotional trauma cause suffering. Or am I missing the point? > > > > Going back to the original point by Anna I don't think animals have the > > cognitive ability to actively think about the future without an > associative > > predictor of what is to come eg press the lever and a food pellet will > > follow. > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > Wendy Hanson > > Dip. ACP{NOCN} Dip.Nutri.Med{RC} > > www.southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Stanley Curtis" > > To: "Chris Sherwin" > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ; > "Anna > > Olsson" ; > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:28 PM > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris Sherwin- > > > > > > I simply think that, in the absecne of evidence, we shouldn't be > acting > > as > > > if there were evidence- Yes, I do believe that we need knowledge that > "is > > > currently impossible for us to gain" if we're going to base husbandry > > > recommendations and regulations on the feelings axiom- I believe we > need > > a > > > new axiom as to what will much better serve as indicators of animal > state > > of > > > being- More soon- > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Chris Sherwin" > > > To: "Stanley Curtis" > > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; > ; > > > "Anna Olsson" ; > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:08 AM > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Stan, > > > > > > > > You are asking for 'knowledge' that is currently impossible for us > to > > > gain. Many > > > > people working in this area believe that non-human animals are > > sentient > > > beings and > > > > should be treated accordingly. I think the 'knowledge' that you > seek > > > does not even > > > > exist for humans. I could be somewhat mischevious and ask you to > > prove > > > to me that > > > > you suffer in a way which should stop me causing you various forms > of > > > harm, but, I > > > > choose to believe that a more ethically acceptable way of thinking > is > > > that absence > > > > of evidence is not evidence of absence (actually, my own thinking > is > > > that there is > > > > evidence but I accept your philosophical point of view that this > is > > not > > > > 'Knowledge'). > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:35:40 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray and others- > > > > > > > > > > You'll have to pardon me in one major respect- I join many of > you > > > in > > > > > enjoying thinking about and discussing matters such as the one > Anna > > > Olsson > > > > > has just brought to the table- Intriguing stuff- > > > > > > > > > > For me the problem has to do with the glib transferrence of > these > > > > > unverified musings into action plans for industry and > government- > > We > > > do see > > > > > this happening mroe and more frequently nowdays, and I think it > is a > > > > > dangerous matter- I think we ought to be basing our > recommednations > > > for > > > > > husbandry systems and animal-care regulations on more than a > > consensus > > > of > > > > > thoughts that haven't been proved scientfiically- > > > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Ray Stricklin" > > > > > To: ; "Stanley Curtis" > > > > > > > > Cc: "Anna Olsson" ; > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:24 AM > > > > > Subject: RE: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a big, big difference between having an ability to > > > "predict the > > > > > > future" and "knowing that one can 'predict' the future." > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no question that animals have the ability "to know > > > certain > > > > > > things" - even 'predict' certain things about their future; > and > > > this in > > > > > fact > > > > > > can be genetic in some instances such as those factors > > influenced > > > by > > > > > > photoperiod, etc. But how much ability do they have "to > know > > that > > > they > > > > > > know?" > > > > > > > > > > > > We human animals "know that we know." And the really > interesting > > > > > question > > > > > > thus becomes, do other animals also have this ability (or > how > > much > > > > > ability > > > > > > do they have in the case of chimps at least). > > > > > > > > > > > > (Anna, I am fairly certain - but didn't take the time to > > > re-check - that > > > > > > Rollin talked about the topic of having a concept of the > future > > > relative > > > > > to > > > > > > pain in his book _Animal Consciousness, Animal Pain & > Science_. > > > > > However, > > > > > > this idea is not original to Rollin. I believe you can find > that > > > Michael > > > > > Fox > > > > > > for example earlier discussed the idea that lacking a > concept of > > > the > > > > > future > > > > > > could enhance fear, along with a majority of the other > topics > > > Rollin > > > > > covers. > > > > > > In fact I expect if you trace back far enough, I think that > you > > > might > > > > > even > > > > > > find that the early Greeks talked about this enigma. If I > were > > to > > > list > > > > > a > > > > > > reference for purposes of sending the reader to the best > current > > > > > position on > > > > > > what it means to have a concept of the future relative to > > animals > > > from > > > > > among > > > > > > philosophers of mind today, I would use Daniel Dennett and > > > probably cite > > > > > > _Consciousness Explained_ or _Kinds of Minds_. And would > not > > > trust my > > > > > > memory and would check of course to see exactly how he dealt > > with > > > the > > > > > > question in each book.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards to all, > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > University of Maryland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:42 AM > > > > > > To: Stanley Curtis > > > > > > Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > > > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stan, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. This > is a > > > > > computer > > > > > > simulated > > > > > > rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for teaching vet > > > students > > > > > about > > > > > > learning > > > > > > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about such > > teaching. > > > I > > > > > have > > > > > > managed > > > > > > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he must > stop > > > pressing > > > > > on > > > > > > the > > > > > > food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this not > mean > > he > > > is > > > > > > predicting > > > > > > the consequences of his actions and therefore has at least > 'a > > > limited > > > > > notion > > > > > > of > > > > > > the future'? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they > experience > > > pain?- > > > > > > > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they experience?- > > And > > > still > > > > > > > further, have we any idea as to how much they "suffer" > when > > > > > experiencing > > > > > > > pain at any given level?- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of the > future" > > > and its > > > > > > > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply going a > way > > > too far > > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first place, > for > > > instance, > > > > > are > > > > > > we > > > > > > > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the future"?- > Says > > > who?- > > > > > On > > > > > > what > > > > > > > evidence?- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Anna Olsson" > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > > > > > > > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think it is > > Bernard > > > > > Rollin > > > > > > > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the > > consequences > > > of a > > > > > > > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity for > > > suffering. > > > > > > Something > > > > > > > like that if an individual has no notion of the future, it > has > > > no > > > > > notion > > > > > > of > > > > > > > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain its > whole > > > world is > > > > > > pain. > > > > > > > Can anyone on this list help me with the original author > of > > this > > > > > > discussion > > > > > > > and where to find it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > Researcher > > > > > > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > > > > > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > > > > > > > 4150-180 Porto > > > > > > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > > > > > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > > > > University of Bristol, > > > > > > Langford House, > > > > > > Langford, > > > > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > > University of Bristol, > > > > Langford House, > > > > Langford, > > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology, Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, BS40 5DU, U.K. Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"fludzinski@thales.com" "Marek Fludzinski" 20-JAN-2005 08:47:08.19 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Thank you all; I am finding this discussion of great interest. Has me thinking about pain/awareness/consciousness ... And I wonder if anyone has read The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes. Is consciousness necessary for forethought? ::: -----Original Message----- ::: From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk ::: [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] ::: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 9:34 AM ::: To: Stanley Curtis ::: Cc: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca ::: Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics ::: ::: ::: ::: Stanley, ::: ::: At the risk of seeming provocative, but with the best of ::: intentions, can I ask why ::: you draw the line at only vertebrates feeling pain? Is ::: this based on ::: 'science-informed knowledge'? ::: ::: Respectfully yours, ::: ::: Chris Sherwin ::: ::: ::: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:26:34 -0600 Stanley Curtis ::: wrote: ::: ::: > ::: > Wendy Hanson and all- ::: > ::: > I think you're not missing the point- As I said earlier, I'm ::: > willing to stipulate that vertebrate animals feel pain ::: and find it ::: > aversive- But how does that pain feel to the animal?- ::: How much does ::: > the animal suffer?- I gree with those who say, as Chris ::: Sherwin did, ::: > that nowadays we can't possibly answer that question- ::: > ::: > Again, I have fun as I fall asleep at night thinking ::: philosophically ::: > about possibilites in these matters- But in my day job ::: I'm coming to ::: > the discussion as an applied animal scientist, ::: interested in applying ::: > science-informed knowledge to bettering the lives of the ::: animals we ::: > keep- In so doing, we must draw lines, because some pain, some ::: > suffering is ::: > inevitable- Life is, after all, a struggle, no matter ::: where or under what ::: > circumstacnes an animal may be living- But, in our ::: production systems, just ::: > how much suffering is ethically permissible?- And how ::: can we possibly hope ::: > to stay under that ethical threshold if we can't draw that line?- ::: > ::: > -Stanley Curtis ::: > ::: > ::: > ----- Original Message ----- ::: > From: "WendyHanson" ::: > To: "Stanley Curtis" ; "Chris Sherwin" ::: > ::: > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ::: > ; "Anna Olsson" ::: ; ::: > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:11 PM ::: > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics ::: > ::: > ::: > > In my simple and humble view surely the fact that ::: most higher ::: > mammals can ::: > > associate current environmental stimuli with past ::: feelings of pain or ::: > > emotional trauma and take avoidance or defensive action is ::: > evidence that ::: > > pain and emotional trauma cause suffering. Or am I ::: missing the point? ::: > > ::: > > Going back to the original point by Anna I don't ::: think animals have the ::: > > cognitive ability to actively think about the future ::: without an ::: > associative ::: > > predictor of what is to come eg press the lever and ::: a food pellet will ::: > > follow. ::: > > ::: > > Wendy ::: > > ::: > > ::: > > ::: > > Wendy Hanson ::: > > Dip. ACP{NOCN} Dip.Nutri.Med{RC} ::: > > www.southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk ::: > > ::: > > ----- Original Message ----- ::: > > From: "Stanley Curtis" ::: > > To: "Chris Sherwin" ::: > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ::: > ; "Anna ::: > > Olsson" ; ::: > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:28 PM ::: > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics ::: > > ::: > > ::: > > > ::: > > > ::: > > > Chris Sherwin- ::: > > > ::: > > > I simply think that, in the absecne of evidence, ::: we shouldn't be ::: > acting ::: > > as ::: > > > if there were evidence- Yes, I do believe that we need ::: > knowledge that "is ::: > > > currently impossible for us to gain" if we're ::: going to base husbandry ::: > > > recommendations and regulations on the feelings axiom- I ::: > believe we need ::: > > a ::: > > > new axiom as to what will much better serve as ::: indicators of ::: > animal state ::: > > of ::: > > > being- More soon- ::: > > > ::: > > > -Stanley Curtis ::: > > > ::: > > > ::: > > > ----- Original Message ----- ::: > > > From: "Chris Sherwin" ::: > > > To: "Stanley Curtis" ::: > > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; ::: > ; ::: > > > "Anna Olsson" ; ::: ::: > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:08 AM ::: > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics ::: > > > ::: > > > ::: > > > > ::: > > > > ::: > > > > Dear Stan, ::: > > > > ::: > > > > You are asking for 'knowledge' that is ::: currently impossible for us ::: > to ::: > > > gain. Many ::: > > > > people working in this area believe that ::: non-human animals are ::: > > sentient ::: > > > beings and ::: > > > > should be treated accordingly. I think the ::: 'knowledge' that you ::: > seek ::: > > > does not even ::: > > > > exist for humans. I could be somewhat ::: mischevious and ask you to ::: > > prove ::: > > > to me that ::: > > > > you suffer in a way which should stop me ::: causing you various forms ::: > of ::: > > > harm, but, I ::: > > > > choose to believe that a more ethically ::: acceptable way of thinking ::: > is ::: > > > that absence ::: > > > > of evidence is not evidence of absence ::: (actually, my own thinking ::: > is ::: > > > that there is ::: > > > > evidence but I accept your philosophical point ::: of view that this ::: > is ::: > > not ::: > > > > 'Knowledge'). ::: > > > > ::: > > > > Regards, ::: > > > > ::: > > > > Chris ::: > > > > ::: > > > > ::: > > > > ::: > > > > ::: > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:35:40 -0600 Stanley Curtis ::: > ::: > > > wrote: ::: > > > > ::: > > > > > ::: > > > > > Ray and others- ::: > > > > > ::: > > > > > You'll have to pardon me in one major ::: respect- I join many of ::: > you ::: > > > in ::: > > > > > enjoying thinking about and discussing ::: matters such as the one ::: > Anna ::: > > > Olsson ::: > > > > > has just brought to the table- Intriguing stuff- ::: > > > > > ::: > > > > > For me the problem has to do with the glib ::: transferrence of ::: > these ::: > > > > > unverified musings into action plans for industry and ::: > government- ::: > > We ::: > > > do see ::: > > > > > this happening mroe and more frequently ::: nowdays, and I think it ::: > is a ::: > > > > > dangerous matter- I think we ought to be basing our ::: > recommednations ::: > > > for ::: > > > > > husbandry systems and animal-care ::: regulations on more than a ::: > > consensus ::: > > > of ::: > > > > > thoughts that haven't been proved scientfiically- ::: > > > > > ::: > > > > > -Stanley Curtis ::: > > > > > ::: > > > > > ::: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- ::: > > > > > From: "Ray Stricklin" ::: > > > > > To: ; "Stanley Curtis" ::: > > > ::: > > > > > Cc: "Anna Olsson" ; ::: > > > ::: > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:24 AM ::: > > > > > Subject: RE: citation on animal ethics ::: > > > > > ::: > > > > > ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > There is a big, big difference between ::: having an ability to ::: > > > "predict the ::: > > > > > > future" and "knowing that one can ::: 'predict' the future." ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > There is no question that animals have ::: the ability "to know ::: > > > certain ::: > > > > > > things" - even 'predict' certain things ::: about their future; ::: > and ::: > > > this in ::: > > > > > fact ::: > > > > > > can be genetic in some instances such as ::: those factors ::: > > influenced ::: > > > by ::: > > > > > > photoperiod, etc. But how much ability ::: do they have "to ::: > know ::: > > that ::: > > > they ::: > > > > > > know?" ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > We human animals "know that we know." ::: And the really ::: > interesting ::: > > > > > question ::: > > > > > > thus becomes, do other animals also have ::: this ability (or ::: > how ::: > > much ::: > > > > > ability ::: > > > > > > do they have in the case of chimps at least). ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > (Anna, I am fairly certain - but didn't ::: take the time to ::: > > > re-check - that ::: > > > > > > Rollin talked about the topic of having ::: a concept of the ::: > future ::: > > > relative ::: > > > > > to ::: > > > > > > pain in his book _Animal Consciousness, ::: Animal Pain & ::: > Science_. ::: > > > > > However, ::: > > > > > > this idea is not original to Rollin. I ::: believe you can find ::: > that ::: > > > Michael ::: > > > > > Fox ::: > > > > > > for example earlier discussed the idea ::: that lacking a ::: > concept of ::: > > > the ::: > > > > > future ::: > > > > > > could enhance fear, along with a ::: majority of the other ::: > topics ::: > > > Rollin ::: > > > > > covers. ::: > > > > > > In fact I expect if you trace back far ::: enough, I think that ::: > you ::: > > > might ::: > > > > > even ::: > > > > > > find that the early Greeks talked about ::: this enigma. If I ::: > were ::: > > to ::: > > > list ::: > > > > > a ::: > > > > > > reference for purposes of sending the ::: reader to the best ::: > current ::: > > > > > position on ::: > > > > > > what it means to have a concept of the ::: future relative to ::: > > animals ::: > > > from ::: > > > > > among ::: > > > > > > philosophers of mind today, I would use ::: Daniel Dennett and ::: > > > probably cite ::: > > > > > > _Consciousness Explained_ or _Kinds of ::: Minds_. And would ::: > not ::: > > > trust my ::: > > > > > > memory and would check of course to see ::: exactly how he dealt ::: > > with ::: > > > the ::: > > > > > > question in each book.) ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > Regards to all, ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > Ray Stricklin ::: > > > > > > University of Maryland ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- ::: > > > > > > From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk ::: > > > [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] ::: > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:42 AM ::: > > > > > > To: Stanley Curtis ::: > > > > > > Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca ::: > > > > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > Stan, ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the ::: virtual rat'. This ::: > is a ::: > > > > > computer ::: > > > > > > simulated ::: > > > > > > rat in a Skinner box which I will be ::: using for teaching vet ::: > > > students ::: > > > > > about ::: > > > > > > learning ::: > > > > > > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical ::: concerns about such ::: > > teaching. ::: > > > I ::: > > > > > have ::: > > > > > > managed ::: > > > > > > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light ::: goes on, he must ::: > stop ::: > > > pressing ::: > > > > > on ::: > > > > > > the ::: > > > > > > food bar or he will get an electric ::: shock. Does this not ::: > mean ::: > > he ::: > > > is ::: > > > > > > predicting ::: > > > > > > the consequences of his actions and ::: therefore has at least ::: > 'a ::: > > > limited ::: > > > > > notion ::: > > > > > > of ::: > > > > > > the future'? ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > Regards, ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > Chris ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis ::: > > > ::: > > > > > wrote: ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > Anna Olsson- ::: > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything ::: when they ::: > experience ::: > > > pain?- ::: > > > > > > > Moreover, have we any idea how much ::: pain they experience?- ::: > > And ::: > > > still ::: > > > > > > > further, have we any idea as to how ::: much they "suffer" ::: > when ::: > > > > > experiencing ::: > > > > > > > pain at any given level?- ::: > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > This musing about an animal's ::: "limited notion of the ::: > future" ::: > > > and its ::: > > > > > > > implciations by whomever seems to me ::: to be simply going a ::: > way ::: > > > too far ::: > > > > > in ::: > > > > > > the ::: > > > > > > > direction of anthropomorphization- In ::: the first place, ::: > for ::: > > > instance, ::: > > > > > are ::: > > > > > > we ::: > > > > > > > sure animals do have a "limited notion ::: of the future"?- ::: > Says ::: > > > who?- ::: > > > > > On ::: > > > > > > what ::: > > > > > > > evidence?- ::: > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis ::: > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- ::: > > > > > > > From: "Anna Olsson" ::: > > > > > > > To: ::: > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM ::: > > > > > > > Subject: citation on animal ethics ::: > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > > Dear all, ::: > > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > > One of the animal ethics ::: philosophers, I think it is ::: > > Bernard ::: > > > > > Rollin ::: > > > > > > > (although I might be wrong here), has ::: discussed the ::: > > consequences ::: > > > of a ::: > > > > > > > limited notion of the future for ::: animals' capacity for ::: > > > suffering. ::: > > > > > > Something ::: > > > > > > > like that if an individual has no ::: notion of the future, it ::: > has ::: > > > no ::: > > > > > notion ::: > > > > > > of ::: > > > > > > > that pain may have an end and so while ::: feeling pain its ::: > whole ::: > > > world is ::: > > > > > > pain. ::: > > > > > > > Can anyone on this list help me with ::: the original author ::: > of ::: > > this ::: > > > > > > discussion ::: > > > > > > > and where to find it? ::: > > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > > Regards, ::: > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson ::: > > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson ::: > > > > > > > > Researcher ::: > > > > > > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics ::: > > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell ::: Biology - IBMC ::: > > > > > > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 ::: > > > > > > > > 4150-180 Porto ::: > > > > > > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 ::: > > > > > > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 ::: > > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > ::: > > > ::: > > ::: > > ::: ----------------------------------------------------------- ::: --------- ::: > > ------ ::: > > > > > > -- ::: > > > > > > > ---- ::: > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > ::: > ............................................................. ::: > > > > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin ::: > > > > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour ::: and Welfare) ::: > > > > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, ::: > > > > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, ::: > > > > > > University of Bristol, ::: > > > > > > Langford House, ::: > > > > > > Langford, ::: > > > > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 ::: > > > > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 ::: > > > > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > > ::: > > > > > ::: > > > > > ::: > > > > ::: > > > ::: > > ::: > > ::: ----------------------------------------------------------- ::: --------- ::: > > ------ ::: > > > -- ::: > > > > > ---- ::: > > > > > ::: > > > > > ::: > > > > ::: > > > > ::: ............................................................. ::: > > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin ::: > > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) ::: > > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, ::: > > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, ::: > > > > University of Bristol, ::: > > > > Langford House, ::: > > > > Langford, ::: > > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. ::: > > > > ::: > > > > ::: > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 ::: > > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 ::: > > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk ::: > > > > ::: > > > ::: > > > ::: > > ::: > > ::: ----------------------------------------------------------- ::: --------- ::: > > ------ ::: > > -- ::: > > > ---- ::: > > > ::: > > > ::: > > ::: > > ::: > ::: > ::: > ::: ----------------------------------------------------------- ::: ----------- ::: > ------ ::: > ---- ::: > ::: > ::: ::: ............................................................. ::: Dr C.M. Sherwin ::: Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) ::: Centre for Behavioural Biology, ::: Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, ::: University of Bristol, ::: Langford House, ::: Langford, ::: BS40 5DU, U.K. ::: ::: ::: Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 ::: Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 ::: email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk ::: ::: From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 20-JAN-2005 09:06:25.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fw: citation on animal ethics ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stanley Curtis" To: "Chris Sherwin" Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:56 AM Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > Chris Sherwin- > > In answer to your question, I simply know so very little -- indeed almost > nothing beyond having dissected "Lumbricus terrestris" (no italics in my > e-mail program) in undergraduate zoology laboratory in 1961 -- about the > nervous system of invertebrates that I wanted to be clear that my reference > was to vertebrates only- Invertebrates may, too, be sentient, but I know > almost nothing about that possibility- > > By the way, have you read "To Know a Fly" by insect physiologist Vincent > Dethier- I think you would find that little book a fun, fast -- and > enlightening -- read- I've used it in courses and discussion groups for > decades, always to good reception- I recently found copies of it for sale > at , where I purchased one for my granddaughter for her 14th > birthday- > > I hope to soon be getting around to commenting on the three points you > raised in an e-note earlier this week- > > -Stan Curtis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Sherwin" > To: "Stanley Curtis" > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:31 AM > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > Stanley, > > > > At the risk of seeming provocative, but with the best of intentions, can > I ask why > > you draw the line at only vertebrates feeling pain? Is this based on > > 'science-informed knowledge'? > > > > Respectfully yours, > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:26:34 -0600 Stanley Curtis > wrote: > > > > > > > > Wendy Hanson and all- > > > > > > I think you're not missing the point- As I said earlier, I'm > willing to > > > stipulate that vertebrate animals feel pain and find it aversive- But > how > > > does that pain feel to the animal?- How much does the animal suffer?- > I > > > gree with those who say, as Chris Sherwin did, that nowadays we can't > > > possibly answer that question- > > > > > > Again, I have fun as I fall asleep at night thinking philosophically > about > > > possibilites in these matters- But in my day job I'm coming to the > > > discussion as an applied animal scientist, interested in applying > > > science-informed knowledge to bettering the lives of the animals we > keep- > > > In so doing, we must draw lines, because some pain, some suffering is > > > inevitable- Life is, after all, a struggle, no matter where or under > what > > > circumstacnes an animal may be living- But, in our production > systems, just > > > how much suffering is ethically permissible?- And how can we possibly > hope > > > to stay under that ethical threshold if we can't draw that line?- > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "WendyHanson" > > > To: "Stanley Curtis" ; "Chris Sherwin" > > > > > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; > ; > > > "Anna Olsson" ; > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:11 PM > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > In my simple and humble view surely the fact that most higher > mammals > > > can > > > > associate current environmental stimuli with past feelings of pain > or > > > > emotional trauma and take avoidance or defensive action is > evidence > > > that > > > > pain and emotional trauma cause suffering. Or am I missing the > point? > > > > > > > > Going back to the original point by Anna I don't think animals > have the > > > > cognitive ability to actively think about the future without an > > > associative > > > > predictor of what is to come eg press the lever and a food pellet > will > > > > follow. > > > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wendy Hanson > > > > Dip. ACP{NOCN} Dip.Nutri.Med{RC} > > > > www.southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Stanley Curtis" > > > > To: "Chris Sherwin" > > > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; > ; > > > "Anna > > > > Olsson" ; > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:28 PM > > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris Sherwin- > > > > > > > > > > I simply think that, in the absecne of evidence, we shouldn't > be > > > acting > > > > as > > > > > if there were evidence- Yes, I do believe that we need > knowledge that > > > "is > > > > > currently impossible for us to gain" if we're going to base > husbandry > > > > > recommendations and regulations on the feelings axiom- I > believe we > > > need > > > > a > > > > > new axiom as to what will much better serve as indicators of > animal > > > state > > > > of > > > > > being- More soon- > > > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Chris Sherwin" > > > > > To: "Stanley Curtis" > > > > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; > > > ; > > > > > "Anna Olsson" ; > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:08 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Stan, > > > > > > > > > > > > You are asking for 'knowledge' that is currently impossible > for us > > > to > > > > > gain. Many > > > > > > people working in this area believe that non-human animals > are > > > > sentient > > > > > beings and > > > > > > should be treated accordingly. I think the 'knowledge' that > you > > > seek > > > > > does not even > > > > > > exist for humans. I could be somewhat mischevious and ask > you to > > > > prove > > > > > to me that > > > > > > you suffer in a way which should stop me causing you various > forms > > > of > > > > > harm, but, I > > > > > > choose to believe that a more ethically acceptable way of > thinking > > > is > > > > > that absence > > > > > > of evidence is not evidence of absence (actually, my own > thinking > > > is > > > > > that there is > > > > > > evidence but I accept your philosophical point of view that > this > > > is > > > > not > > > > > > 'Knowledge'). > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:35:40 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray and others- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You'll have to pardon me in one major respect- I join > many of > > > you > > > > > in > > > > > > > enjoying thinking about and discussing matters such as the > one > > > Anna > > > > > Olsson > > > > > > > has just brought to the table- Intriguing stuff- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For me the problem has to do with the glib transferrence > of > > > these > > > > > > > unverified musings into action plans for industry and > > > government- > > > > We > > > > > do see > > > > > > > this happening mroe and more frequently nowdays, and I > think it > > > is a > > > > > > > dangerous matter- I think we ought to be basing our > > > recommednations > > > > > for > > > > > > > husbandry systems and animal-care regulations on more than > a > > > > consensus > > > > > of > > > > > > > thoughts that haven't been proved scientfiically- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Ray Stricklin" > > > > > > > To: ; "Stanley Curtis" > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: "Anna Olsson" ; > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:24 AM > > > > > > > Subject: RE: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a big, big difference between having an > ability to > > > > > "predict the > > > > > > > > future" and "knowing that one can 'predict' the > future." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no question that animals have the ability "to > know > > > > > certain > > > > > > > > things" - even 'predict' certain things about their > future; > > > and > > > > > this in > > > > > > > fact > > > > > > > > can be genetic in some instances such as those factors > > > > influenced > > > > > by > > > > > > > > photoperiod, etc. But how much ability do they have > "to > > > know > > > > that > > > > > they > > > > > > > > know?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We human animals "know that we know." And the really > > > interesting > > > > > > > question > > > > > > > > thus becomes, do other animals also have this ability > (or > > > how > > > > much > > > > > > > ability > > > > > > > > do they have in the case of chimps at least). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Anna, I am fairly certain - but didn't take the time > to > > > > > re-check - that > > > > > > > > Rollin talked about the topic of having a concept of > the > > > future > > > > > relative > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > pain in his book _Animal Consciousness, Animal Pain & > > > Science_. > > > > > > > However, > > > > > > > > this idea is not original to Rollin. I believe you can > find > > > that > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > Fox > > > > > > > > for example earlier discussed the idea that lacking a > > > concept of > > > > > the > > > > > > > future > > > > > > > > could enhance fear, along with a majority of the other > > > topics > > > > > Rollin > > > > > > > covers. > > > > > > > > In fact I expect if you trace back far enough, I think > that > > > you > > > > > might > > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > find that the early Greeks talked about this enigma. > If I > > > were > > > > to > > > > > list > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > reference for purposes of sending the reader to the > best > > > current > > > > > > > position on > > > > > > > > what it means to have a concept of the future relative > to > > > > animals > > > > > from > > > > > > > among > > > > > > > > philosophers of mind today, I would use Daniel Dennett > and > > > > > probably cite > > > > > > > > _Consciousness Explained_ or _Kinds of Minds_. And > would > > > not > > > > > trust my > > > > > > > > memory and would check of course to see exactly how he > dealt > > > > with > > > > > the > > > > > > > > question in each book.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards to all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > > > University of Maryland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:42 AM > > > > > > > > To: Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stan, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. > This > > > is a > > > > > > > computer > > > > > > > > simulated > > > > > > > > rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for > teaching vet > > > > > students > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > learning > > > > > > > > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about > such > > > > teaching. > > > > > I > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > managed > > > > > > > > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he > must > > > stop > > > > > pressing > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this > not > > > mean > > > > he > > > > > is > > > > > > > > predicting > > > > > > > > the consequences of his actions and therefore has at > least > > > 'a > > > > > limited > > > > > > > notion > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the future'? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they > > > experience > > > > > pain?- > > > > > > > > > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they > experience?- > > > > And > > > > > still > > > > > > > > > further, have we any idea as to how much they > "suffer" > > > when > > > > > > > experiencing > > > > > > > > > pain at any given level?- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of > the > > > future" > > > > > and its > > > > > > > > > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply > going a > > > way > > > > > too far > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first > place, > > > for > > > > > instance, > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the > future"?- > > > Says > > > > > who?- > > > > > > > On > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > evidence?- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Anna Olsson" > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > > > > > > > > > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think > it is > > > > Bernard > > > > > > > Rollin > > > > > > > > > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the > > > > consequences > > > > > of a > > > > > > > > > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity > for > > > > > suffering. > > > > > > > > Something > > > > > > > > > like that if an individual has no notion of the > future, it > > > has > > > > > no > > > > > > > notion > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain > its > > > whole > > > > > world is > > > > > > > > pain. > > > > > > > > > Can anyone on this list help me with the original > author > > > of > > > > this > > > > > > > > discussion > > > > > > > > > and where to find it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > > > Researcher > > > > > > > > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > > > > > > > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > > > > > > > > > 4150-180 Porto > > > > > > > > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > > > > > > > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > > > > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > > > > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > > > > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > > > > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > > > > > > University of Bristol, > > > > > > > > Langford House, > > > > > > > > Langford, > > > > > > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > > > > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > > > > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > -- > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > > > > University of Bristol, > > > > > > Langford House, > > > > > > Langford, > > > > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > University of Bristol, > > Langford House, > > Langford, > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 20-JAN-2005 09:17:44.02 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca", IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" CC: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" Subj: RE: citation on animal ethics Stanley, I know some of Dethier's work, although not this particular book. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. His work, along with other studies on operant and behavioural responses to noxious stimuli by bees, snails, cockroaches, etc. do make me wonder about the possibility of suffering in invertebrates. All the best, Chris On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:56:32 -0600 Stanley Curtis wrote: > > Chris Sherwin- > > In answer to your question, I simply know so very little -- indeed almost > nothing beyond having dissected "Lumbricus terrestris" (no italics in my > e-mail program) in undergraduate zoology laboratory in 1961 -- about the > nervous system of invertebrates that I wanted to be clear that my reference > was to vertebrates only- Invertebrates may, too, be sentient, but I know > almost nothing about that possibility- > > By the way, have you read "To Know a Fly" by insect physiologist Vincent > Dethier- I think you would find that little book a fun, fast -- and > enlightening -- read- I've used it in courses and discussion groups for > decades, always to good reception- I recently found copies of it for sale > at , where I purchased one for my granddaughter for her 14th > birthday- > > I hope to soon be getting around to commenting on the three points you > raised in an e-note earlier this week- > > -Stan Curtis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Sherwin" > To: "Stanley Curtis" > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:31 AM > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > Stanley, > > > > At the risk of seeming provocative, but with the best of intentions, can > I ask why > > you draw the line at only vertebrates feeling pain? Is this based on > > 'science-informed knowledge'? > > > > Respectfully yours, > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:26:34 -0600 Stanley Curtis > wrote: > > > > > > > > Wendy Hanson and all- > > > > > > I think you're not missing the point- As I said earlier, I'm > willing to > > > stipulate that vertebrate animals feel pain and find it aversive- But > how > > > does that pain feel to the animal?- How much does the animal suffer?- > I > > > gree with those who say, as Chris Sherwin did, that nowadays we can't > > > possibly answer that question- > > > > > > Again, I have fun as I fall asleep at night thinking philosophically > about > > > possibilites in these matters- But in my day job I'm coming to the > > > discussion as an applied animal scientist, interested in applying > > > science-informed knowledge to bettering the lives of the animals we > keep- > > > In so doing, we must draw lines, because some pain, some suffering is > > > inevitable- Life is, after all, a struggle, no matter where or under > what > > > circumstacnes an animal may be living- But, in our production > systems, just > > > how much suffering is ethically permissible?- And how can we possibly > hope > > > to stay under that ethical threshold if we can't draw that line?- > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "WendyHanson" > > > To: "Stanley Curtis" ; "Chris Sherwin" > > > > > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; > ; > > > "Anna Olsson" ; > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:11 PM > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > In my simple and humble view surely the fact that most higher > mammals > > > can > > > > associate current environmental stimuli with past feelings of pain > or > > > > emotional trauma and take avoidance or defensive action is > evidence > > > that > > > > pain and emotional trauma cause suffering. Or am I missing the > point? > > > > > > > > Going back to the original point by Anna I don't think animals > have the > > > > cognitive ability to actively think about the future without an > > > associative > > > > predictor of what is to come eg press the lever and a food pellet > will > > > > follow. > > > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wendy Hanson > > > > Dip. ACP{NOCN} Dip.Nutri.Med{RC} > > > > www.southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Stanley Curtis" > > > > To: "Chris Sherwin" > > > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; > ; > > > "Anna > > > > Olsson" ; > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:28 PM > > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris Sherwin- > > > > > > > > > > I simply think that, in the absecne of evidence, we shouldn't > be > > > acting > > > > as > > > > > if there were evidence- Yes, I do believe that we need > knowledge that > > > "is > > > > > currently impossible for us to gain" if we're going to base > husbandry > > > > > recommendations and regulations on the feelings axiom- I > believe we > > > need > > > > a > > > > > new axiom as to what will much better serve as indicators of > animal > > > state > > > > of > > > > > being- More soon- > > > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Chris Sherwin" > > > > > To: "Stanley Curtis" > > > > > Cc: "Ray Stricklin" ; > > > ; > > > > > "Anna Olsson" ; > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:08 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Stan, > > > > > > > > > > > > You are asking for 'knowledge' that is currently impossible > for us > > > to > > > > > gain. Many > > > > > > people working in this area believe that non-human animals > are > > > > sentient > > > > > beings and > > > > > > should be treated accordingly. I think the 'knowledge' that > you > > > seek > > > > > does not even > > > > > > exist for humans. I could be somewhat mischevious and ask > you to > > > > prove > > > > > to me that > > > > > > you suffer in a way which should stop me causing you various > forms > > > of > > > > > harm, but, I > > > > > > choose to believe that a more ethically acceptable way of > thinking > > > is > > > > > that absence > > > > > > of evidence is not evidence of absence (actually, my own > thinking > > > is > > > > > that there is > > > > > > evidence but I accept your philosophical point of view that > this > > > is > > > > not > > > > > > 'Knowledge'). > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:35:40 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray and others- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You'll have to pardon me in one major respect- I join > many of > > > you > > > > > in > > > > > > > enjoying thinking about and discussing matters such as the > one > > > Anna > > > > > Olsson > > > > > > > has just brought to the table- Intriguing stuff- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For me the problem has to do with the glib transferrence > of > > > these > > > > > > > unverified musings into action plans for industry and > > > government- > > > > We > > > > > do see > > > > > > > this happening mroe and more frequently nowdays, and I > think it > > > is a > > > > > > > dangerous matter- I think we ought to be basing our > > > recommednations > > > > > for > > > > > > > husbandry systems and animal-care regulations on more than > a > > > > consensus > > > > > of > > > > > > > thoughts that haven't been proved scientfiically- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Ray Stricklin" > > > > > > > To: ; "Stanley Curtis" > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: "Anna Olsson" ; > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:24 AM > > > > > > > Subject: RE: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a big, big difference between having an > ability to > > > > > "predict the > > > > > > > > future" and "knowing that one can 'predict' the > future." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no question that animals have the ability "to > know > > > > > certain > > > > > > > > things" - even 'predict' certain things about their > future; > > > and > > > > > this in > > > > > > > fact > > > > > > > > can be genetic in some instances such as those factors > > > > influenced > > > > > by > > > > > > > > photoperiod, etc. But how much ability do they have > "to > > > know > > > > that > > > > > they > > > > > > > > know?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We human animals "know that we know." And the really > > > interesting > > > > > > > question > > > > > > > > thus becomes, do other animals also have this ability > (or > > > how > > > > much > > > > > > > ability > > > > > > > > do they have in the case of chimps at least). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Anna, I am fairly certain - but didn't take the time > to > > > > > re-check - that > > > > > > > > Rollin talked about the topic of having a concept of > the > > > future > > > > > relative > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > pain in his book _Animal Consciousness, Animal Pain & > > > Science_. > > > > > > > However, > > > > > > > > this idea is not original to Rollin. I believe you can > find > > > that > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > Fox > > > > > > > > for example earlier discussed the idea that lacking a > > > concept of > > > > > the > > > > > > > future > > > > > > > > could enhance fear, along with a majority of the other > > > topics > > > > > Rollin > > > > > > > covers. > > > > > > > > In fact I expect if you trace back far enough, I think > that > > > you > > > > > might > > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > find that the early Greeks talked about this enigma. > If I > > > were > > > > to > > > > > list > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > reference for purposes of sending the reader to the > best > > > current > > > > > > > position on > > > > > > > > what it means to have a concept of the future relative > to > > > > animals > > > > > from > > > > > > > among > > > > > > > > philosophers of mind today, I would use Daniel Dennett > and > > > > > probably cite > > > > > > > > _Consciousness Explained_ or _Kinds of Minds_. And > would > > > not > > > > > trust my > > > > > > > > memory and would check of course to see exactly how he > dealt > > > > with > > > > > the > > > > > > > > question in each book.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards to all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > > > University of Maryland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:42 AM > > > > > > > > To: Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > Cc: Anna Olsson; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stan, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am currently working with 'Sniffy the virtual rat'. > This > > > is a > > > > > > > computer > > > > > > > > simulated > > > > > > > > rat in a Skinner box which I will be using for > teaching vet > > > > > students > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > learning > > > > > > > > whilst avoiding a lot of the ethical concerns about > such > > > > teaching. > > > > > I > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > managed > > > > > > > > to get Sniffy to learn that when a light goes on, he > must > > > stop > > > > > pressing > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > food bar or he will get an electric shock. Does this > not > > > mean > > > > he > > > > > is > > > > > > > > predicting > > > > > > > > the consequences of his actions and therefore has at > least > > > 'a > > > > > limited > > > > > > > notion > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the future'? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we sure animals "think" anything when they > > > experience > > > > > pain?- > > > > > > > > > Moreover, have we any idea how much pain they > experience?- > > > > And > > > > > still > > > > > > > > > further, have we any idea as to how much they > "suffer" > > > when > > > > > > > experiencing > > > > > > > > > pain at any given level?- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This musing about an animal's "limited notion of > the > > > future" > > > > > and its > > > > > > > > > implciations by whomever seems to me to be simply > going a > > > way > > > > > too far > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > direction of anthropomorphization- In the first > place, > > > for > > > > > instance, > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > sure animals do have a "limited notion of the > future"?- > > > Says > > > > > who?- > > > > > > > On > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > evidence?- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Stanley Curtis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Anna Olsson" > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM > > > > > > > > > Subject: citation on animal ethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the animal ethics philosophers, I think > it is > > > > Bernard > > > > > > > Rollin > > > > > > > > > (although I might be wrong here), has discussed the > > > > consequences > > > > > of a > > > > > > > > > limited notion of the future for animals' capacity > for > > > > > suffering. > > > > > > > > Something > > > > > > > > > like that if an individual has no notion of the > future, it > > > has > > > > > no > > > > > > > notion > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > that pain may have an end and so while feeling pain > its > > > whole > > > > > world is > > > > > > > > pain. > > > > > > > > > Can anyone on this list help me with the original > author > > > of > > > > this > > > > > > > > discussion > > > > > > > > > and where to find it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Anna Olsson > > > > > > > > > > Researcher > > > > > > > > > > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > > > > > > > > > > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > > > > > > > > > > 4150-180 Porto > > > > > > > > > > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > > > > > > > > > > Fax +351 22 6099157 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > > > > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > > > > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > > > > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > > > > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > > > > > > University of Bristol, > > > > > > > > Langford House, > > > > > > > > Langford, > > > > > > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > > > > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > > > > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > -- > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > > > > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > > > > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > > > > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > > > > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > > > > > University of Bristol, > > > > > > Langford House, > > > > > > Langford, > > > > > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > > > > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > > > > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > ............................................................. > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > Centre for Behavioural Biology, > > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, > > University of Bristol, > > Langford House, > > Langford, > > BS40 5DU, U.K. > > > > > > Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 > > Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 > > email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin Senior Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology, Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, BS40 5DU, U.K. Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com" "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc." 21-JAN-2005 10:10:29.90 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Suggestions please! Hi everyone, Some of you already know about what's happening here in Ontario i.e.: Bill 132, the proposed "pit bull ban." Because of Attorney General Michael Bryant's comments comparing pit bulls to "dangerous" wolves my wolf center has become actively involved in opposing the ban. Besides, I have one APBT and 2 "pit bull type" dogs of my own. Bill 132 has passed 2nd reading in the Legislative Assembly and is now in committee. I've been asked to present at committee hearings on Feb. 2. The presentation involves a short talk (10 minutes) and I can also submit endless materials. One of my submissions will be Dr. C.W. Meisterfeld's video depicting fighting pit bulls (rescued from a local animal shelter) that have been "reprogrammed" to interact safely with other dogs, children, strange animals etc. proving that aggession in pit bulls is a learned behavior, not a genetic component of the breed. I plan to focus my "speech" on the fact that pit bulls are a domestic animal, unlike wild species such as wolves and tigers. I will draw on my experiences at our wolf center and also with our Siberian tiger cubs (who are ambassadors for our new tiger foundation). Basically I want to focus on 2 very important points: 1. That pit bulls (genetically identical to all other dogs) are domestic and "tame. 2. Pit bulls cannot be compared to wild species of any type, even when considering socialized animals. If any of you have any suggestions as to points I could make, things I can add etc. I'd really appreciate your input! Thanks very much, Vivian Vivian Singer-Ferris Executive Director Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc. The Tiger Foundation From: IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com" "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc." 21-JAN-2005 10:19:56.96 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fw: Suggestions please! I meant constructive suggestions people! LOL Vivian ----- Original Message ----- From: E. Wayne Johnson To: Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc. Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:15 AM Subject: Re: Suggestions please! I suggest you stay at home and support the ban. At 10:10 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote: Hi everyone, Some of you already know about what's happening here in Ontario i.e.: Bill 132, the proposed "pit bull ban." Because of Attorney General Michael Bryant's comments comparing pit bulls to "dangerous" wolves my wolf center has become actively involved in opposing the ban. Besides, I have one APBT and 2 "pit bull type" dogs of my own. Bill 132 has passed 2nd reading in the Legislative Assembly and is now in committee. I've been asked to present at committee hearings on Feb. 2. The presentation involves a short talk (10 minutes) and I can also submit endless materials. One of my submissions will be Dr. C.W. Meisterfeld's video depicting fighting pit bulls (rescued from a local animal shelter) that have been "reprogrammed" to interact safely with other dogs, children, strange animals etc. proving that aggession in pit bulls is a learned behavior, not a genetic component of the breed. I plan to focus my "speech" on the fact that pit bulls are a domestic animal, unlike wild species such as wolves and tigers. I will draw on my experiences at our wolf center and also with our Siberian tiger cubs (who are ambassadors for our new tiger foundation). Basically I want to focus on 2 very important points: 1. That pit bulls (genetically identical to all other dogs) are domestic and "tame. 2. Pit bulls cannot be compared to wild species of any type, even when considering socialized animals. If any of you have any suggestions as to points I could make, things I can add etc. I'd really appreciate your input! Thanks very much, Vivian Vivian Singer-Ferris Executive Director Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc. The Tiger Foundation No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.13 - Release Date: 1/16/2005 E. Wayne Johnson DVM 302 Animal Sciences Laboratory 1207 West Gregory Drive Urbana, Illinois 61801 217 778 9961 mobile 217 367 8252 home 217 333 8286 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.13 - Release Date: 1/16/2005 From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" 21-JAN-2005 11:17:08.67 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Suggestions please! Stealth note from webmail at work. See AKC website, legislation info. www.akc.org. See especially Vicki Hearne's website - the essays are still up. wwww.thesavvydog.com I think also NAIA (National Animal Interest Alliance) will have info to this as well. -margory cohen San Francisco, CA, US From: IN%"pdezabu1@dancris.com" "pduezabou" 21-JAN-2005 11:51:51.27 To: IN%"margory@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Suggestions please! Take Margory's advise (she beat me to the punch). Both AKC and NAIA have good track records for defeating breed specific legislation. Find out what their arguments are. I think I would note, too, that looks do not always predict behavior. I've known Goldens and Rough Collies (Lassie, for goodness' sake!) that bit. It's phenotype vs. genotype. How can the law draw a line that will prove useful in preventing bites and fatalities? It wouldn't hurt to scout out who's promoting the legislation either (possibly insurance industry). Find out what your opponents argue and formulate thoughtful responses before they catch you off guard. Keep me posted! Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick (Duezabou) BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals & Public Policy), ABD From: IN%"jce.barber@gmail.com" "Joseph Barber" 21-JAN-2005 13:12:36.06 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: International Conference on Environmental Enrichment --Boundary_(ID_N8yAxW0v9gBrcVS7+69hdg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Please see the attached 'call for papers' for the 7th International Conference on Environmental Enrichment, being hosted by the Wildlife Conservation Society in New York City (31st July - 5th August 2005). The deadline for submissions is the 15th February. 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IFdvcmQgLSBDYWxsZm9ycGFwZXJzLmRvYycvPgo8L3JkZjpSREY+PD94cGFja2V0 IGVuZD0ncic/PgplbmRzdHJlYW0NZW5kb2JqDXhyZWYNMCA5IA0wMDAwMDAwMDAw IDY1NTM1IGYNCjAwMDAwODk3NDYgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDA4OTg5NiAwMDAwMCBu DQowMDAwMDkwMDU0IDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAwOTI1ODQgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDA5 MjYxNCAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMDkyNjU2IDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAwOTI3MjcgMDAw MDAgbg0KMDAwMDA5Mjk3NCAwMDAwMCBuDQp0cmFpbGVyDTw8DS9TaXplIDkNL0lE Wzw2MDg5MTUyM2VjYTA4ZWMxMTcwYmQzNTc4OWE3ZjdiOD48MjgxMmQ4ODliNTNh YzA1YzBhYjM2NTU1NGMwOTJmYjY+XQ0+Pg1zdGFydHhyZWYNMTczDSUlRU9GDQ== --Boundary_(ID_N8yAxW0v9gBrcVS7+69hdg)-- From: IN%"jlanier@hsus.org" "Jennifer Lanier" 21-JAN-2005 14:13:06.87 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"ISAEnet-l@usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE travel awards The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) recognizes the importance of graduate student research in improving the welfare of farm animals. Therefore, we wish to award one or more applicants financial assistance for attendance and presentation of their research at the 39th International Congress of the International Society for Applied Ethology, which will be held August 20-24, 2004 in Sagamihara, Japan. We regret that this year we are unable to provide funding to students studying outside of the USA or those who have previously received this award. We plan to provide partial or full funding for one or more graduate students from the United States of America to present their research at the Congress. Selection will be based on financial need and the potential impact of the students' research toward improving farm animal welfare. The HSUS Graduate Student Travel Awards were developed with the following objectives: * To raise the profile of farm animal welfare as a discipline in animal/veterinary science colleges. * To encourage students to investigate farm animal welfare issues. * To provide students with the opportunity to attend the ISAE meeting, where they will meet with, and learn from, others working in this discipline. * To draw attention to particular issues affecting farm animal welfare. * To provide additional opportunity for exciting and innovate welfare research to be presented to the scientific community. The following items are necessary for your application to be considered: 1. Your name, contact information, USA academic institution, level of study, and the name of your major advisor. 2. An abstract of your research, which you would present at the International Congress. Travel awards are contingent on the acceptance of your abstract by the ISAE committee. Application for this travel award does not suggest that ISAE has received or will accept your abstract. Please visit www.ics-inc.co.jp/isae2005/ for information on submitting abstracts to ISAE. 3. Status of your abstract acceptance by the ISAE committee (e.g. accepted, in review). 4. Itemized list of travel expenses in US currency. 5. Letter of recommendation from your major advisor indicating why you should be selected to receive this award. 6. A letter from you indicating your interest in animal welfare, relevance of your research to the advancement of animal welfare, financial need, and why it is important for you to attend this conference. Note: Please include your name on all pages and (or) attachments. Deadline: Completed applications must be received by 15 March 2005. Applications are accepted via e-mail. Please send the application to the following address. I look forward to hearing from you. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture The Humane Society of the United States 2100 L. Street NW Washington, D.C. 20037 (301) 548 7787 (301) 258 3081 Fax jlanier@hsus.org www.hsus.org From: IN%"rbogle@sonic.net" "Rick Bogle" 21-JAN-2005 14:36:44.83 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Suggestions please! http://www.dogbitelegalcenter.com/resources/dogbite_statistics.html There may be some statistics available to those who care to look suggesting that some breeds are involved in more biting reports and subsequent injury to the bite victims than other breeds. Maybe this has to do with they way the animals are raised, but maybe not. AKC and NAIA speak from the perspective that nearly all constraints on pet 'owners' and breeders must be fought against. No one seemed to notice or comment the earlier claim that pits are genetically identical to every other breed. Factually, no two poodles, no two dogs, no two mammals of any species are genetically identical except for some very rare clones. To the degree that genetics affects behavior, there is no reason at all to assume that members of various breeds of dogs will generally behave differently under similar conditions than members of another breed. [NAIA is a particularly interesting organization. It appears to be a coalition of commercial and hobby breeders, rodeo clowns, and vivisectors.] Rick Bogle Madison, Wisconsin > -----Original Message----- > From: pduezabou [mailto:pdezabu1@dancris.com] > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:55 AM > To: margory@rcn.com; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Suggestions please! > > > Take Margory's advise (she beat me to the punch). Both AKC and NAIA have > good track records for defeating breed specific legislation. Find out what > their arguments are. > > I think I would note, too, that looks do not always predict behavior. I've > known Goldens and Rough Collies (Lassie, for goodness' sake!) > that bit. It's > phenotype vs. genotype. How can the law draw a line that will prove useful > in preventing bites and fatalities? > > It wouldn't hurt to scout out who's promoting the legislation either > (possibly insurance industry). Find out what your opponents argue and > formulate thoughtful responses before they catch you off guard. > > Keep me posted! > Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick (Duezabou) > BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals & Public Policy), ABD > > From: IN%"datakoll@yahoo.com" "gene daniels" 21-JAN-2005 15:21:38.58 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: paranormal ethology Read ICJ 6 and prior ICJ journal entries at google groups sci.bio.ethology. ICJ posts will continue weekly. gene daniels --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 22-JAN-2005 19:28:19.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Suggestions please! ----- > No one seemed to notice or comment the earlier claim that pits are > genetically identical to every other breed. > > Factually, no two poodles, no two dogs, no two mammals of any species are > genetically identical except for some very rare clones. To the degree that > genetics affects behavior, there is no reason at all to assume that members > of various breeds of dogs will generally behave differently under similar > conditions than members of another breed. > Rick Bogle > Madison, Wisconsin Yes, I picked this too. I understand that Pit Bulls were developed as fighting dogs -- and therefore selected for a genetic tendency to either fight or to be strong fighters when aroused. But another thing that I wonder about -- the old folk wisdom of 'form follows function'. I know that with the Belyaev (sp?) Silver Fox experiments the appearance of the foxes changed dramatically with selection for temperament and 'handlability'. So would there be any behavioural component associated with the genes for the appearance of Pit Bull Terriers?? I also know that different breeds of horses and of cattle have very different reputations for temperament ease of handling. There is of course a genetically different appeareance to these different breeds. Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour, Australia From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 23-JAN-2005 09:00:27.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: New web site For those who may be interested. I have a new web site www.coyoterescue.org If you are an Ethologist and have worked with coyotes, I sure would welcome a contribution to the site. CeAnn ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From: IN%"jkoler@ccountry.com" "Janice Koler-Matznick" 23-JAN-2005 16:16:02.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: reference needed Hello. I am in need of an ASAP copy of Adam Miklosi's paper comparing wolves and dogs on the rope pull test. I believe it came put in 2003 or 2004. I have tried to contact him and the e-mail addresses I have are not working (bounce my message back). Does anyone have a pdf of this? I have only a popular summary from BBC and a senior student at the local university would like to replicate it with my Singers for her senior project. Thanks in advance.. Jan Janice Koler-Matznick, M.S., CPDT The Dog Advisor Behavior Service New Guinea Singing Dog Conservation Society IUCN Canid Specialist Group member Primitive and Aboriginal Dog Society 5265 Old Stage Road Central Point, OR 97502 USA Phone/Fax: 541-664-4023 From: IN%"dale_arey@tiscali.co.uk" "dale arey" 24-JAN-2005 09:32:44.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: US farm animal welfare legislation Dear All Does anyone know of a good website that summarises US farm animal welfare legislation? For example, are all farm animals in the US protected by a 'blanket' law that makes it an 'offence to cause livestock to suffer unnecessary pain or distress' as we have in the UK? Dale From: IN%"smillman@uoguelph.ca" "Suzanne Millman" 24-JAN-2005 12:05:48.98 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca", IN%"ISAEnet-l@usask.ca" "ISAEnet-l@usask.ca" CC: Subj: Request for manuscripts Dear all, The Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science (JAAWS) is a quarterly peer-reviewed journal that publishes articles and commentaries on methods of experimentation, husbandry and care that demonstrably enhance the welfare of nonhuman animals. As Section Editor for Farm Animals, I encourage you to consider our journal for publishing research relating to the welfare of farmed animals. In particular, I am exploring the feasibility of publishing a special edition of JAAWS focusing on livestock and poultry welfare. Two topics areas being considered include (1) Pain assessment and opportunities for pain management in large animal production, and (2) Effects of caretakers/stockpersons on animal welfare. JAAWS is abstracted or indexed in Index Medicus/Medline; CAB Abstracts; CAB Health; BIOSIS; PsychINFO/Psychological Abstracts; Wildlife Review Abstracts; EBSCOhost Products. A free sample of the journal may be viewed at http://www.erlbaum.com. I would be grateful for feedback to gauge the level of interest in these topics, as well as suggestions for future special editions of the journal. Kind regards, Suzanne Millman, PhD -- Suzanne Millman, BSc(Agr), PhD Asst. Professor, Applied Animal Behaviour & Welfare Dept. of Population Medicine, Ontario Veterinary College, University of Guelph, Guelph, ON, N1G 2W1, Canada Tel: (519) 824-4120, ext.53677 Dept. Fax: (519) 763-8621 Email: smillman@ovc.uoguelph.ca From: IN%"dogtrainer2@mac.com" 24-JAN-2005 15:57:18.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"jkoler@ccountry.com" "Janice Koler-Matznick" Subj: RE: reference needed Here's the reference that you are probably looking for: Miklosi A, Kubinyi E, Topal J, et al. (2003). A simple reason for a big dif= ference. Wolves do not look back at humans, but dogs do. Current Biology, 1= 3:763-766. You might also be interested in an informative dissertation written by Nanc= y Hiestand comparing dog and wolf problem-solving abilities. She performed = a series of rope pulling experiments with adult and juvenile wolves and com= pared their performance with that of adult dogs. Aside from being highly re= adable, what makes her work particularly valuable is a nice summary of the = scientific literature dealing with canine problem solving up to 1989. Hiestand, NL (1989). A comparison of problem-solving and spatial orientatio= n in the wolf (Canis lupus) and dog (Canis familiaris). PhD Dissertation, U= niversity of Connecticut, Storrs, CT. Here's a current article that the student might also find useful: Osthaus B,=A0 Lea SEG, and Slater AM (2005). Dogs (Canis lupus familiaris) = fail to show understanding of means-end connections in a string-pulling tas= k. Animal Cognition, 8:37-47. Steve Lindsay =20 On Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 05:16PM, Janice Koler-Matznick wrote: >Hello. I am in need of an ASAP copy of Adam Miklosi's paper comparing >wolves and dogs on the rope pull test. I believe it came put in 2003 or >2004. I have tried to contact him and the e-mail addresses I have are not >working (bounce my message back). Does anyone have a pdf of this? I have >only a popular summary from BBC and a senior student at the local universi= ty >would like to replicate it with my Singers for her senior project. Thanks >in advance.. > >Jan > >Janice Koler-Matznick, M.S., CPDT >The Dog Advisor Behavior Service >New Guinea Singing Dog Conservation Society >IUCN Canid Specialist Group member >Primitive and Aboriginal Dog Society >5265 Old Stage Road >Central Point, OR 97502 USA >Phone/Fax: 541-664-4023 > > > Steven R. Lindsay, MA Institute for Cynopraxic Studies PO Box # 91 Newtown Square, PA 19073 From: IN%"pdezabu1@dancris.com" "pduezabou" 24-JAN-2005 20:26:45.05 To: IN%"dale_arey@tiscali.co.uk" "dale arey", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: US farm animal welfare legislation Hi Dale, I'd start by checking out these sites: Animal Welfare Act (national legislation) http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/legislat/awa.htm Gary Francione's website (good links) http://www.animal-law.org/ National Animal Interest Alliance (coalition of user groups) http://www.naiaonline.org/ Humane Society of the United States http://www.hsus.org/ This one didn't load well tonight, but I think they have a page just for farm animals Individual states largely regulate animal welfare (under state anti-cruelty legislation) unless the animals enter interstate commerce or otherwise fall under the jurisdiction of the Animal Welfare Act. Good luck! Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick (Duezabou) BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals & Public Policy), ABD ----- Original Message ----- From: dale arey To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 8:38 AM Subject: US farm animal welfare legislation Dear All Does anyone know of a good website that summarises US farm animal welfare legislation? For example, are all farm animals in the US protected by a 'blanket' law that makes it an 'offence to cause livestock to suffer unnecessary pain or distress' as we have in the UK? Dale From: IN%"dale_arey@tiscali.co.uk" "dale arey" 25-JAN-2005 06:16:59.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: US farm animal welfare legislation Dear All Thank you for your help and suggestions. I have come across the 'Animal Welfare Act' in the US but it does not seem to cover farm animals. It reads: (g) The term "animal" means any live or dead dog, cat, monkey (nonhuman primate mammal), guinea pig, hamster, rabbit, or such other warm-blooded animal, as the Secretary may determine is being used, or is intended for use, for research, testing, experimentation, or exhibition purposes or as a pet; but such term excludes horses not used for research purposes and other farm animals, such as, but not limited to livestock or poultry, used or intended for use as food or fiber, or livestock or poultry used or intended for improving animal nutrition, breeding, management or production efficiency, or for improving the quality of food or fiber. Exemptions The AWA regulates the care and treatment of warmblooded animals, except those, such as farm animals, used for food, fiber, or other agricultural purposes. Therefore my question is still - is the welfare of farm animals not covered by federal law unless they are being transported out of a state? My next question would then be - does every state have its own law governing the welfare of farm animals and how widely do they differ? Thanks Dale From: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" 25-JAN-2005 06:39:11.21 To: IN%"dale_arey@tiscali.co.uk" "dale arey", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: US farm animal welfare legislation Out here in the fields we dont always discriminate clearly whether "Regulatory Creep" implies the continuing insidious encroachment of government in restricting the freedom of autonomous individuals, or if "Regulatory Creep" is that person who just showed up in your driveway in a smallish blue car. ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:23:19 +0000 >From: dale arey >Subject: Re: US farm animal welfare legislation >To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > Dear All > > Thank you for your help and suggestions. > > I have come across the 'Animal Welfare Act' in the > US but it does not seem to cover farm animals. It > reads: > > (g) The term "animal" means any live or dead dog, > cat, monkey (nonhuman primate mammal), guinea pig, > hamster, rabbit, or such other warm-blooded animal, > as the Secretary may determine is being used, or is > intended for use, for research, testing, > experimentation, or exhibition purposes or as a pet; > but such term excludes horses not used for research > purposes and other farm animals, such as, but not > limited to livestock or poultry, used or intended > for use as food or fiber, or livestock or poultry > used or intended for improving animal nutrition, > breeding, management or production efficiency, or > for improving the quality of food or fiber. > > Exemptions > > The AWA regulates the care and treatment of > warmblooded animals, except those, such as farm > animals, used for food, fiber, or other agricultural > purposes. > > Therefore my question is still - is the welfare of > farm animals not covered by federal law unless they > are being transported out of a state? My next > question would then be - does every state have its > own law governing the welfare of farm animals and > how widely do they differ? > > Thanks > > Dale > > > > From: IN%"Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk" "Moira Harris" 25-JAN-2005 07:16:18.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: US farm animal welfare legislation Dear E. Wayne, I'm not completely clear what you're saying (perhaps becaue I'm in an office rather than a field). Are you suggesting that legislation to protect the interests of animals represents "... the continuing insidious encroachment of government in restricting the freedom of autonomous individuals"? Best wishes, - Moira Harris --On 25 January 2005 06:39 -0600 "E. Wayne Johnson" wrote: > Out here in the fields > we dont always discriminate clearly whether > "Regulatory Creep" implies the > continuing insidious encroachment of government in > restricting the freedom of autonomous individuals, > > or if "Regulatory Creep" is that person > who just showed up in your driveway in a > smallish blue car. > > > ---- Original message ---- >> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:23:19 +0000 >> From: dale arey >> Subject: Re: US farm animal welfare legislation >> To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca >> >> Dear All >> >> Thank you for your help and suggestions. >> >> I have come across the 'Animal Welfare Act' in the >> US but it does not seem to cover farm animals. It >> reads: >> >> (g) The term "animal" means any live or dead dog, >> cat, monkey (nonhuman primate mammal), guinea pig, >> hamster, rabbit, or such other warm-blooded animal, >> as the Secretary may determine is being used, or is >> intended for use, for research, testing, >> experimentation, or exhibition purposes or as a pet; >> but such term excludes horses not used for research >> purposes and other farm animals, such as, but not >> limited to livestock or poultry, used or intended >> for use as food or fiber, or livestock or poultry >> used or intended for improving animal nutrition, >> breeding, management or production efficiency, or >> for improving the quality of food or fiber. >> >> Exemptions >> >> The AWA regulates the care and treatment of >> warmblooded animals, except those, such as farm >> animals, used for food, fiber, or other agricultural >> purposes. >> >> Therefore my question is still - is the welfare of >> farm animals not covered by federal law unless they >> are being transported out of a state? My next >> question would then be - does every state have its >> own law governing the welfare of farm animals and >> how widely do they differ? >> >> Thanks >> >> Dale >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------- Dr. Moira Harris Dept. Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol moira.harris@bristol.ac.uk 0117 928 9404 From: IN%"pdezabu1@dancris.com" "pduezabou" 25-JAN-2005 07:37:22.58 To: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu", IN%"dale_arey@tiscali.co.uk" "dale arey", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: US farm animal welfare legislation This one will make me grin all day :-) It really captures something about the American dream, and it explains--sort of--why I get those stupid little permits when I move livestock and continue to renew my kennel license (have to track down the person who shows up in smallish white pickup and looks the other way as neighbor's horses gallop across my driveway--it's open range). Anyway...forgot about the folks at Animal Welfare Institute http://www.awionline.org/ They have a publication that chronicles animal regulation in US. Dale has, indeed, asked pertinent questions: 'Therefore my question is still - is the welfare of farm animals not covered by federal law unless they are being transported out of a state? My next question would then be - does every state have its own law governing the welfare of farm animals and how widely do they differ?' I think the answers are, "Correct. Farm animal welfare is not covered by federal law except under specific instances," and "Yes. Each state has it's own anti cruelty law." (Those would be linked from the Rutgers Law Clinic site referenced previously.) Dale, please share your impressions as you compare state anti-cruelty laws. Really. Peggy ----- Original Message ----- From: "E. Wayne Johnson" To: "dale arey" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:39 AM Subject: Re: US farm animal welfare legislation > Out here in the fields > we dont always discriminate clearly whether > "Regulatory Creep" implies the > continuing insidious encroachment of government in > restricting the freedom of autonomous individuals, > > or if "Regulatory Creep" is that person > who just showed up in your driveway in a > smallish blue car. > > > ---- Original message ---- > >Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:23:19 +0000 > >From: dale arey > >Subject: Re: US farm animal welfare legislation > >To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > > > Dear All > > > > Thank you for your help and suggestions. > > > > I have come across the 'Animal Welfare Act' in the > > US but it does not seem to cover farm animals. It > > reads: > > > > (g) The term "animal" means any live or dead dog, > > cat, monkey (nonhuman primate mammal), guinea pig, > > hamster, rabbit, or such other warm-blooded animal, > > as the Secretary may determine is being used, or is > > intended for use, for research, testing, > > experimentation, or exhibition purposes or as a pet; > > but such term excludes horses not used for research > > purposes and other farm animals, such as, but not > > limited to livestock or poultry, used or intended > > for use as food or fiber, or livestock or poultry > > used or intended for improving animal nutrition, > > breeding, management or production efficiency, or > > for improving the quality of food or fiber. > > > > Exemptions > > > > The AWA regulates the care and treatment of > > warmblooded animals, except those, such as farm > > animals, used for food, fiber, or other agricultural > > purposes. > > > > Therefore my question is still - is the welfare of > > farm animals not covered by federal law unless they > > are being transported out of a state? My next > > question would then be - does every state have its > > own law governing the welfare of farm animals and > > how widely do they differ? > > > > Thanks > > > > Dale > > > > > > > > > > From: IN%"smillman@uoguelph.ca" "Suzanne Millman" 25-JAN-2005 07:50:10.57 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: welfare legislation Dear Dale and others, In 2000, I wrote a brief article on US vs. European legislation for farm animals for the Animal Welfare, Ethics and Law Veterinary Society newsletter. (AWSELVA is based in Bristol, UK and has a website for those interested). The article is a bit dated, but not too much has changed since that time. I cut-and-paste it below for those interested. Since I wrote it, the Florida ban on sow stalls was passed and there is currently a campaign to include poultry under the Humane Slaughter Act. For further information, The Humane Society of the US has excellent information on legislation in the US (www.hsus.org). I am no longer with the organization, but Dr. Mike Appleby is now in charge the farm animal section and will have more up to date information on these issues. Regards, Suzanne -- Suzanne Millman, BSc(Agr), PhD Asst. Professor, Applied Animal Behaviour & Welfare Dept. of Population Medicine, Ontario Veterinary College, University of Guelph, Guelph, ON, N1G 2W1, Canada Tel: (519) 824-4120, ext.53677 Dept. Fax: (519) 763-8621 Email: smillman@ovc.uoguelph.ca Legislation protecting farm animals in the United States Suzanne Millman Introduction In contrast to far reaching legislation regarding animal welfare in most European countries, protection for the well-being of livestock and poultry in the United States is woefully inadequate. In particular, there is no unique status provided for animals within U.S. law – nothing akin to the European recognition of animals as “sentient beings”. However, there are sound reasons to anticipate improvements in both regulation and enforcement of farm animal care. In this paper, I shall outline current federal and state legislation and its enforcement, as well as non-legislative activities that affect the husbandry of farmed animals in the United States. Existing and Proposed Legislation Both federal and state legislation affect livestock and poultry well-being. There are three federal laws that are relevant. The Twenty-Eight Hour Law was established in 1873, and requires that animals that have been transported across state lines for more than 28 hours be unloaded for a minimum of five hours of rest, watering and feeding. In contrast, current EU legislation requires similar resting, feeding and watering opportunities after only eight hours. The U.S. law appears to be intended for protection of animal owners, since there are provisions to extend duration of transportation to 36 hours upon request by the person owning or having custody of the animals. Although the Twenty-Eight Hour Law initially applied to transportation by rail carrier, the law was amended in 1994 to include transportation by trucks and other vessels. The law does not apply to transportation within a state, and whether the revised law applies to transportation of poultry has yet to be determined. The Humane Slaughter Act (HSA) was established in 1958, and requires that livestock be rendered unconscious in a humane manner prior to slaughter. The law applies only to federally inspected slaughter facilities, provides exemptions for ritual slaughter, and most significantly, does not apply to poultry. There are humane slaughter and transport laws in 27 states, similar to the federal regulations. The HSA was amended in 1978 to prohibit dragging of conscious, non-ambulatory animals or “downers”, and the Meat Inspection Act of 1978 gave inspectors power to stop a slaughter line immediately in response to violations of the HSA. However, enforcement continues to be a problem since a single inspector is responsible for food safety within the entire processing line and is not required to be present on the killing floor. Ever increasing line speeds raise the likelihood that improperly stunned animals proceed through the processing line, as documented vividly in the article “They Die Piece By Piece” appearing in the Washington Post on April 10, 2001. In response to public pressure, a Humane Slaughter Resolution was passed in 2002 which resulted in hiring of 17 veterinarians to address inadequacies in the enforcement of the Humane Slaughter Act. At the present time there is also pending federal legislation regarding the handling of animals that are unable to walk due to injury or illness. If passed, the Downed Animal Protection Act would prohibit transfer or sale of these animals. The final piece of federal legislation pertaining to animal care is the Animal Welfare Act, enacted in 1966, which protects the well-being of animals kept for research, education, and exhibition. However, the Act specifically excludes animals raised for food or fibre, and consequently does not affect practices on farm, during transport or at slaughter. In addition to federal legislation, state anti-cruelty laws prohibit animal abuse. These laws vary considerably between regions, with animal cruelty prosecuted as a felony in some states and as a misdemeanor in others. Furthermore, livestock and poultry are exempt from most anti-cruelty laws either directly or through exemptions for “normal industry practices” or similar wording. However, specific practices have been halted through anti-cruelty state legislation. For example, despite lack of federal legislation, cockfighting is prohibited in all but two states. Enforcement of state anti-cruelty laws falls upon state public prosecutors or privately funded SPCA Inspectors. Due to competing demands for prosecution of other crimes, investigations of cruelty cases tend to be initiated by public outcry following publicized exposes or actions by animal advocacy organizations. Even then, there may be obstacles to prosecution, for example when documentation of animal abuse has been obtained illegally. However, such video evidence was instrumental in the high profile prosecution of a former manager for Seaboard Farms Inc, Oklahoma in August, 2001. The employee was charged with felony animal cruelty following an undercover investigation by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals that revealed shockingly brutal fatal beatings of fattening pigs. Attempts have been made to prohibit particular husbandry practices through state legislation. In past years, California and Illinois introduced bills that would ban forced molting of laying hens by means of feed deprivation. Unfortunately neither bill passed; a similar bill was reintroduced in Illinois this year. New Jersey is currently debating a bill requiring that veal calves be provided with enough space to turn around, lie down and groom, and that they be fed a diet sufficient in iron and fibre. The Humane Society of the United States and Floridians for Humane Farms are pursuing a citizen led ballot initiative which, if successful, would see Floridians voting on whether gestating sows should be provided with sufficient space to turn around. Similarly, the state of Hawaii is debating whether to limit restrictive housing for sows. Legislation indirectly affecting farm animal husbandry There are several areas of legislation that indirectly impact on the treatment of farm animals. Concerns about antibiotic resistance have fueled scrutiny of antibiotic use on farms. Currently, the proposed Preservation of Antibiotics for Human Treatment Act of 2002 is being debated in Congress, which would ban non-therapeutic uses of medically important antibiotics in livestock and poultry production. Again, although the Act does not address animal welfare directly, if passed it is expected to impact on husbandry practices. Similarly, U.S. federal and state environmental laws target pollution from very large farms. The Environmental Protection Agency of the U.S. government has begun to cite swine and poultry companies for violations of the Clean Water Act, and more recently the Clean Air Act. Public pressure has led to moratoria on development of new large hog operations in North Carolina, Colorado, and within municipalities of several other states. Together with several non-governmental organizations, a team of lawyers led by Robert Kennedy Jr. launched a high profile campaign against industrial hog operations. Civil litigation suits have been brought forward against pork companies on charges including environmental contamination, worker violations, and racketeering. While these actions do not address animal welfare per se, animal protection organizations have been supportive because of an assumption that poor welfare is more likely on large industrial operations. Discussion It is striking that U.S. federal legislation affecting the treatment of farm animals focuses primarily on food safety rather than animal suffering. As noted, we are not at the stage where animals are likely to be granted special consideration as “sentient beings”. However, there are indications that animal welfare is receiving more attention. Notably, Senator Robert C. Byrd, Chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, made a impassioned and very personal speech in Senate about animal cruelty on July 9, 2001 in which he stated “On profit-driven factory farms, veal calves are confined to dark wooden crates so small that they are prevented from lying down or scratching themselves. These creatures feel; they know pain. They suffer pain just as we humans suffer pain.” He backed up his speech with action, by introducing the “Humane Slaughter Resolution”. The most significant differences between European and U.S. animal protection relate to the treatment of poultry. Housing of laying hens was one of the first issues to be addressed in Europe, with a Council Directive regulating minimum standards for hens in battery cages passed in 1986. Conversely, U.S. poultry are exempt from all federal animal protection legislation and most state anticruelty laws. Six states prohibit inhumane transportation of poultry within anticruelty laws, but address only the most extreme situations; Pennsylvania prohibits transporting more than 15 pounds of live birds, equivalent to four market weight broiler chickens, per cubic foot. Furthermore, since maximum fines range from $50 to $100, even if enforced these meager laws are unlikely to act as deterrents. Handling and disposal of spent laying hens pose serious animal welfare challenges due to lack of economic incentives, hen fragility, and lack of protective legislation. This is exacerbated by the fact that approximately 75% of U.S. laying hen flocks are kept for multiple laying cycles by means of “forced molting”, whereby feed is withdrawn for up to 14 days, or until birds lose 30% of their body weight. Animal protection laws are extremely difficult to institute in the U.S. since the agricultural community is extremely averse to regulation. Because of their non-status in legislation, poultry provide an interesting example of how reform is happening through non-governmental channels. United Egg Producers (UEP), an industry organization representing 80% of U.S. egg companies, commissioned an independent scientific study on poultry welfare from which UEP developed voluntary guidelines. These guidelines recommend (1) phasing in increased cage space requirements from the current industry average of 345 sq. cm to 432 sq. cm per hen over the next several years, (2) research into alternative strategies to induce molting, and (3) phasing out beak trimming through the development of non-feather pecking genetic strains. While these recommendations are limited by the small changes put forward, long phase in periods, and lack of enforcement, they represent a paradigm shift by the poultry industry. Animal welfare is now viewed as an issue requiring serious scientific scrutiny, and thoughtful discussions are emerging. Without question, the most significant improvements in animal welfare in the U.S. have resulted from recent actions by retailers. In 2000, McDonalds Corporation issued welfare standards to their egg suppliers requiring 465 sq. cm of cage space per hen, prohibiting forced molting by means of feed restriction, and phasing out beak trimming. This unprecedented action has produced a flurry of activity and discussion about farm animal welfare. Other retailers, restaurants and supermarkets quickly followed suit. One quick service restaurant, Chipotle Grill, sources all of its pork from a group of farmers who raise pigs on pasture or in deep bedded barns, and the restaurant chain is actively pursuing humanely raised poultry products. These non-legislative methods of animal protection are limited, since they only affect companies wishing to supply that market. However, a standard has been set to which other companies may be compared. Furthermore, some retailers have lobbied for better animal protection regulation. In June 2001, Burger King Corporation issued a scathing letter to Secretary of Agriculture Ann Veneman, that retailers were doing a better job of enforcing the Humane Slaughter Act than were the U.S. Department of Agriculture inspectors responsible for it. Conclusions There is insufficient legislation in the U.S. at the present time to safeguard the well-being of farm animals, particularly poultry. However, public awareness is increasing with respect to issues regarding farm animal welfare, coinciding with high profile campaigns targeting impacts of industrial animal operations on the environment, public health and rural communities. Although progress through legislation is both slow and difficult to achieve, retailers are initiating farm animal welfare advances in the U.S., by demanding rapid changes within animal industries and by putting pressure on government for enforcement. From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 25-JAN-2005 12:12:07.53 To: IN%"dale_arey@tiscali.co.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: US farm animal welfare legislation Dale, re your question: "Therefore my question is still - is the welfare of farm animals not covered by federal law unless they are being transported out of a state? My next question would then be - does every state have its own law governing the welfare of farm animals and how widely do they differ?" You are correct that the on-farm welfare of farmed animals is not included in Federal animal welfare legislation. Farm animals then generally come under the anti-cruelty legislation of each state. Anti-cruelty legislation is just that. It prohibits inflicting pain and suffering but does not imply that anyone is responsible for providing a satisfying life to the animal or stipulate practices that achieve better lives for animals. It is also important to note that almost all agriculturally-important states have passed legislation that excludes farm animals from protection under their anti-cruelty statutes. That is, practices that are considered inhumane to companion animals are not considered cruel when applied to farmed animals. So farmed animals are not covered by most (30 or more) state anti-cruelty laws. Attorney David Wolfson published a small treatise about this a few years ago -- it's called "Beyond the Law" and gives details of state anti-cruelty provisions pertaining (or not pertaining) to farmed animals. You can order a copy from Farm Sanctuary (_https://secure.vegsource.com/~farmsanc/item.cgi?rm=edit_item&item_id=602_ (https://secure.vegsource.com/~farmsanc/item.cgi?rm=edit_item&item_id=602) ) Marlene Halverson Animal Welfare Institute In a message dated 1/25/2005 7:39:43 AM Central Standard Time, pdezabu1@dancris.com writes: This one will make me grin all day :-) It really captures something about the American dream, and it explains--sort of--why I get those stupid little permits when I move livestock and continue to renew my kennel license (have to track down the person who shows up in smallish white pickup and looks the other way as neighbor's horses gallop across my driveway--it's open range). Anyway...forgot about the folks at Animal Welfare Institute http://www.awionline.org/ They have a publication that chronicles animal regulation in US. Dale has, indeed, asked pertinent questions: 'Therefore my question is still - is the welfare of farm animals not covered by federal law unless they are being transported out of a state? My next question would then be - does every state have its own law governing the welfare of farm animals and how widely do they differ?' I think the answers are, "Correct. Farm animal welfare is not covered by federal law except under specific instances," and "Yes. Each state has it's own anti cruelty law." (Those would be linked from the Rutgers Law Clinic site referenced previously.) Dale, please share your impressions as you compare state anti-cruelty laws. Really. Peggy ----- Original Message ----- From: "E. Wayne Johnson" To: "dale arey" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:39 AM Subject: Re: US farm animal welfare legislation > Out here in the fields > we dont always discriminate clearly whether > "Regulatory Creep" implies the > continuing insidious encroachment of government in > restricting the freedom of autonomous individuals, > > or if "Regulatory Creep" is that person > who just showed up in your driveway in a > smallish blue car. > > > ---- Original message ---- > >Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:23:19 +0000 > >From: dale arey > >Subject: Re: US farm animal welfare legislation > >To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > > > Dear All > > > > Thank you for your help and suggestions. > > > > I have come across the 'Animal Welfare Act' in the > > US but it does not seem to cover farm animals. It > > reads: > > > > (g) The term "animal" means any live or dead dog, > > cat, monkey (nonhuman primate mammal), guinea pig, > > hamster, rabbit, or such other warm-blooded animal, > > as the Secretary may determine is being used, or is > > intended for use, for research, testing, > > experimentation, or exhibition purposes or as a pet; > > but such term excludes horses not used for research > > purposes and other farm animals, such as, but not > > limited to livestock or poultry, used or intended > > for use as food or fiber, or livestock or poultry > > used or intended for improving animal nutrition, > > breeding, management or production efficiency, or > > for improving the quality of food or fiber. > > > > Exemptions > > > > The AWA regulates the care and treatment of > > warmblooded animals, except those, such as farm > > animals, used for food, fiber, or other agricultural > > purposes. > > > > Therefore my question is still - is the welfare of > > farm animals not covered by federal law unless they > > are being transported out of a state? My next > > question would then be - does every state have its > > own law governing the welfare of farm animals and > > how widely do they differ? > > > > Thanks > > > > Dale From: IN%"fludzinski@thales.com" "Marek Fludzinski" 28-JAN-2005 22:53:59.98 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: contact info steven lindsay if you get this please email me -- i'd like to comment on your books but have misplaced your last message so don't have your email fludzinski@thales.com Marek Fludzinski, Ph.D. Chief Executive Officer Thales Fund Management, LLC