Subject: SV: Reindeer behaviour From: Randi Helene Tillung Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:09:43 +0100 To: 'applied-ethology network' , Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Thank you everyone for contributing! This means that if I am very hungry and need to catch a reindeer, I should approach it on it's right side with my lasso :) I can't say that I have seen this circling behaviour in sheep here in Norway. I should have noticed because I have been working quite a lot with sheep and sheepdogs. On the other hand, the Norwegian sheep are not famous for their anti-predatory behaviour. Quite the opposite I would say. Only recently is predation of sheep from large carnivores an issue, and breeding has probably focussed on the sheep being able to efficiently graze in the scarce mountain. Actually Norwegian sheep does not flock at all, but spread out. One ewe with it's lambs. Traditionally sheep are not herded or looked after much during the summer. They are gathered up in September. Is the circling behaviour maybe a variant or an elaboration of the flight behaviour described by Dr. Temple Grandin? Has anyone looked into the schooling of fish and anti-predatory behaviour? From fishing experience I know that the largest plaice are usually under the rest of the school, which means you should have a heavy weight on your line so that you do not catch a lot of small fish. For enjoyment when you have little else to do: http://www.fish-school.com/ Thank you, Randi Helene Tillung Subject: Re: SV: Reindeer behaviour From: Sabine Goubau Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:46:05 -0700 To: Randi Helene Tillung CC: 'applied-ethology network' , Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hello Randi, I am not sure how relevant this may be in relation to your questions, but here is a new slant to these issues. Christian Jacob has been studying what he calls "swarm intelligence". You may find some new ways of thinking about your observations in his work. Here is his website: http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~jacob/HomeCJ/Christian%27s%20Home%20Page/Home.html Take care, Sabine Sabine Goubau, PhD Bachelor of Health Sciences Program O'Brien Centre Faculty of Medicine University of Calgary Tel 403-210 8604 Fax 403-210 9747 E-mail sgoubau@ucalgary.ca Randi Helene Tillung wrote: > Thank you everyone for contributing! This means that if I am very hungry and > need to catch a reindeer, I should approach it on it's right side with my > lasso :) > > I can't say that I have seen this circling behaviour in sheep here in > Norway. I should have noticed because I have been working quite a lot with > sheep and sheepdogs. On the other hand, the Norwegian sheep are not famous > for their anti-predatory behaviour. Quite the opposite I would say. Only > recently is predation of sheep from large carnivores an issue, and breeding > has probably focussed on the sheep being able to efficiently graze in the > scarce mountain. > > Actually Norwegian sheep does not flock at all, but spread out. One ewe with > it's lambs. Traditionally sheep are not herded or looked after much during > the summer. They are gathered up in September. > > Is the circling behaviour maybe a variant or an elaboration of the flight > behaviour described by Dr. Temple Grandin? > > Has anyone looked into the schooling of fish and anti-predatory behaviour? > From fishing experience I know that the largest plaice are usually under the > rest of the school, which means you should have a heavy weight on your line > so that you do not catch a lot of small fish. > > For enjoyment when you have little else to do: http://www.fish-school.com/ > > > Thank you, > > > > Randi Helene Tillung > > > > Subject: Re: SV: Reindeer behaviour From: Sabine Goubau Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:46:05 -0700 To: Randi Helene Tillung CC: 'applied-ethology network' , Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hello Randi, I am not sure how relevant this may be in relation to your questions, but here is a new slant to these issues. Christian Jacob has been studying what he calls "swarm intelligence". You may find some new ways of thinking about your observations in his work. Here is his website: http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~jacob/HomeCJ/Christian%27s%20Home%20Page/Home.html Take care, Sabine Sabine Goubau, PhD Bachelor of Health Sciences Program O'Brien Centre Faculty of Medicine University of Calgary Tel 403-210 8604 Fax 403-210 9747 E-mail sgoubau@ucalgary.ca Randi Helene Tillung wrote: > Thank you everyone for contributing! This means that if I am very hungry and > need to catch a reindeer, I should approach it on it's right side with my > lasso :) > > I can't say that I have seen this circling behaviour in sheep here in > Norway. I should have noticed because I have been working quite a lot with > sheep and sheepdogs. On the other hand, the Norwegian sheep are not famous > for their anti-predatory behaviour. Quite the opposite I would say. Only > recently is predation of sheep from large carnivores an issue, and breeding > has probably focussed on the sheep being able to efficiently graze in the > scarce mountain. > > Actually Norwegian sheep does not flock at all, but spread out. One ewe with > it's lambs. Traditionally sheep are not herded or looked after much during > the summer. They are gathered up in September. > > Is the circling behaviour maybe a variant or an elaboration of the flight > behaviour described by Dr. Temple Grandin? > > Has anyone looked into the schooling of fish and anti-predatory behaviour? > From fishing experience I know that the largest plaice are usually under the > rest of the school, which means you should have a heavy weight on your line > so that you do not catch a lot of small fish. > > For enjoyment when you have little else to do: http://www.fish-school.com/ > > > Thank you, > > > > Randi Helene Tillung > > > > Subject: Re: Dairy Cow on YouTube From: joseph stookey Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:34:01 -0600 To: Cody Creelman , applied-ethology network , Ray Stricklin , "Haley, Derek" , Adele Buettner , AFAC Hi Cody, I am not sure if I ever thanked you for sending me the link to the video clip of the dairy cow nursing herself, but it does capture a "behaviour problem" that is not very commonly seen. I have to admit that the students have sent me some very interesting examples of animal behaviour that have been broadcasted on Youtube and other video sites. Dr. Derek Haley, just sent me a video clip of some ranchers dehorning a TX Longhorn cow. As interesting as the video may be, it is equally interesting to me that someone would publicly post such material and not have a concept or sense of how brutal it actually appears. I noticed another related clip of a calf being disbudded, which had apparently been injected with lidocaine to create a cornual nerve block, but obviously the block was not very effective. Again, it would not be my choice of clips to publicly broadcast, especially if the block was not effective. It is probably just a matter of time (if they do not already appear) that we will be able to view a video clip on any common routine management practice that occurs in our livestock and poultry industries. Anyway, I think the interesting thing about these video clips is that it brings real images of everyday livestock farming practices right into everyone's home. The concept that what we do on farms to animals is hidden from the public is certainly no longer true. I think the videos that are being posted are also an interesting reflection of what the public thinks is funny, entertaining or of interest to potential viewers and many times these videos show a certain level of ignorance by the film maker or poster of the material. For example, some of the clips are of animals engaged in stereotype behaviour - which the video operator or poster apparently thinks is funny, when in fact the animal is likely demonstrating that something in its environment, care, etc. is amiss for it to have developed a stereotypie of this nature. Ray Stricklin and I have remarked that there is likely a Ph.D. thesis or two and some scientific papers that could be written by simply studying the material that was being broadcasted on Youtube about animal behaviour. It may or may not provide any additional insight on animal behaviour or animal welfare, but these video broadcasts certainly provide a sociological perspective and insight into human behaviour about what some humans find entertaining, educational or interesting regarding animals and animal behaviour. Anyway, thanks for sending me the link to the video, it probably has some value in the classroom. Cheers, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Professor of Applied Ethology Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: Re: Dairy Cow on YouTube From: Kayce Cover Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:44:16 -0500 (EST) To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca, applied-ethology@usask.ca Would love to see the link! Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com Subject: Re: Dairy Cow on YouTube From: margorycohen@comcast.net Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:35:16 +0000 To: applied-ethology network Hi Joe - Always good to see you and yours today - spot on! I caught something on CNN the other day -- bears who wandered too close to a residential neighborhood and came across a giant trampoline and naturally climbed on it and the bounce looked like it was deadly. Not funny - and I love Anderson Cooper and look to his show for a lot of my news - but it was displayed as entertainment -- not this is what can happen when we encroach. best to you, -margory cohen Sonoma County, CA On weekends I see more cows and sheep than people - I think I'm living right. -------------- Original message -------------- From: joseph stookey > Anyway, I think the interesting thing about these video clips is that it > brings real images of everyday livestock farming practices right into > everyone's home. The concept that what we do on farms to animals is > hidden from the public is certainly no longer true. I think the videos > that are being posted are also an interesting reflection of what the > public thinks is funny, entertaining or of interest to potential viewers > and many times these videos show a certain level of ignorance by the > film maker or poster of the material. For example, some of the clips > are of animals engaged in stereotype behaviour - which the video > operator or poster apparently thinks is funny, when in fact the animal &g t; is likely demonstrating that something in its environment, care, etc. is > amiss for it to have developed a stereotypie of this nature. Ray > Stricklin and I have remarked that there is likely a Ph.D. thesis or two > and some scientific papers that could be written by simply studying the > material that was being broadcasted on Youtube about animal behaviour. > It may or may not provide any additional insight on animal behaviour or > animal welfare, but these video broadcasts certainly provide a > sociological perspective and insight into human behaviour about what > some humans find entertaining, educational or interesting regarding > animals and animal behaviour. > > Anyway, thanks for sending me the link to the video, it probably has > some value in the classroom. > > Cheers, > > Joe > > -- > Joseph M. Stookey > Professor of Applied Ethol ogy > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > University of Saskatchewan > 52 Campus Drive > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > Canada S7N 5B4 > > Tel 306-966-7154 > Fax 306-966-7159 > Subject: Study Programmes in ethology From: ismail thoya Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:12:19 -0800 (PST) To: Applied-ethology network I have a first degree in veterinary medicine(DVM) and am intending to do my masters degree in applied ethology. Am in need of advice concerning colleges offering masters level degree in the concerned subject. Please send me a list of the names of the colleges involved. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Subject: Re: Study Programmes in ethology From: Kathy Morgan Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:25:09 -0500 CC: Applied-ethology network ismail thoya wrote: > I have a first degree in veterinary medicine(DVM) and am intending to do my masters degree in applied ethology. > Am in need of advice concerning colleges offering masters level degree in the concerned subject. > Please send me a list of the names of the colleges involved. > Hi Ismail! The Animal Behavior Society in the U.S. has a listing of graduate programs in this area that you can access from their website: http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSEducation/programs-in-animal-behavior Best of luck to you! --Kathy Morgan Wheaton College Norton, MA 02766 kmorgan@wheatonma.edu Subject: Re: Study Programmes in ethology From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:55:29 -0700 To: Kathy Morgan CC: Applied-ethology network Hello, I'll introduce myself to the list. I am a Human Ethologist with a background in Zoology and Medicine. I am the moderator of the International Society for Human Ethology (ISHE) Yahoo group on Human Ethology. See http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ . I did go to veterinary school for two years before medical school and left veterinary school because in the early 1960s there was no support at all for my interest in animal behavior. At the time there was only one textbook on The Behavior of Domestic Animals by Hafez, which was published in 1962. I remember how I devoured every word in that book. Times have certainly changed. I eventually went into a very biologically oriented psychiatry residency and am now a retired, Board Certified Psychiatrist and a retired Clinical Professor of Psychiatry, with a strong interest in animal behavior as well. I am curious why it is better to get an "applied ethology" degree, rather than just studying ethology. The reason I ask is that I have a friend, who is a veterinarian. He has told me that he has some type of extra certification in animal behavior. Yet, when I talked to him, he knows very little about the basic principles of ethology. He said that what he learned was mainly practical ways of treating bad habits, etc. in animals. He was not aware of much of the classic literature on ethology from Lorenz, Tinbergen, etc. If I were to do it all over again and wanted to become a veterinary expert on behavior, I would pursue a regular ethology degree in the Zoology Department of a university which is strong in this area. Regards, Jay R. Feierman ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathy Morgan Cc: Applied-ethology network Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:25 AM Subject: Re: Study Programmes in ethology ismail thoya wrote: > I have a first degree in veterinary medicine(DVM) and am intending to do my masters degree in applied ethology. > Am in need of advice concerning colleges offering masters level degree in the concerned subject. > Please send me a list of the names of the colleges involved. > Hi Ismail! The Animal Behavior Society in the U.S. has a listing of graduate programs in this area that you can access from their website: http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSEducation/programs-in-animal-behavior Best of luck to you! --Kathy Morgan Wheaton College Norton, MA 02766 kmorgan@wheatonma.edu Subject: Helping Hands for the Handicapped From: Kayce Cover Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:29:38 -0500 (EST) To: sue.ketland@woodgreen.org.uk CC: Applied-ethology network Applied ethology in the news: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16692051/ A write up of early definitive history on my website: http://synalia.com/108/announcements/ Kayce Cover, MSEd, BS An Sci, CABC, IAABC Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com 757 588 5967 or 757 609 5066 Subject: RE: Study Programmes in ethology From: Kimberly Sheppard Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:38:44 +0000 To: "Jay R. Feierman" , Kathy Morgan CC: Applied-ethology network Hi Ismail, The University of Guelph offers graduate training in applied ethology/animal welfare. Graduate students have the option of completing a thesis-based M.Sc. or Ph.D; A course-based M.Sc. in animal welfare is being offered for the first time beginning in September of 2008. Students entering the program typically have a background in animal science, animal biology, zoology, psychology, or veterinary medicine. For more information on faculty, course offerings etc., please visit the University of Guelph's Campbell Centre for the Study of Animal Welfare Website: www.uoguelph.ca/csaw Best regards, Kimberly Sheppard Communications Coordinator, Campbell Centre for the Study of Animal Welfare, Dept. of Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario Canada N1G 2W1 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:55:29 -0700 From: jfeierman@comcast.net Subject: Re: Study Programmes in ethology To: kmorgan@wheatonma.edu CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hello, I'll introduce myself to the list. I am a Human Ethologist with a background in Zoology and Medicine. I am the moderator of the International Society for Human Ethology (ISHE) Yahoo group on Human Ethology. See http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ . I did go to veterinary school for two years before medical school and left veterinary school because in the early 1960s there was no support at all for my interest in animal behavior. At the time there was only one textbook on The Behavior of Domestic Animals by Hafez, which was published in 1962. I remember how I devoured every word in that book. Times have certainly changed. I eventually went into a very biologically oriented psychiatry residency and am now a retired, Board Certified Psychiatrist and a retired Clinical Professor of Psychiatry, with a strong interest in animal behavior as well. I am curious why it is better to get an "applied ethology" degree, rather than just studying ethology. The reason I ask is that I have a friend, who is a veterinarian. He has told me that he has some type of extra certification in animal behavior. Yet, when I talked to him, he knows very little about the basic principles of ethology. He said that what he learned was mainly practical ways of treating bad habits, etc. in animals. He was not aware of much of the classic literature on ethology from Lorenz, Tinbergen, etc. If I were to do it all over again and wanted to become a veterinary expert on behavior, I would pursue a regular ethology degree in the Zoology Department of a university which is strong in this area. Regards, Jay R. Feierman ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathy Morgan Cc: Applied-ethology network Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:25 AM Subject: Re: Study Programmes in ethology ismail thoya wrote: I have a first degree in veterinary medicine(DVM) and am intending to do my masters degree in applied ethology. Am in need of advice concerning colleges offering masters level degree in the concerned subject. Please send me a list of the names of the colleges involved. Hi Ismail! The Animal Behavior Society in the U.S. has a listing of graduate programs in this area that you can access from their website: http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSEducation/programs-in-animal-behavior Best of luck to you! --Kathy Morgan Wheaton College Norton, MA 02766 kmorgan@wheatonma.edu Subject: Cat behavior and red light From: "Martin, Francois" Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:24:09 -0800 To: applied-ethology network I am interested in cats' activity levels at night. I am planning on videotaping cats at night and using red light so we can see. Is anybody aware of studies that looked at if red light actually has an effect on cats? In other word, would the use of red light modifiy the cats' normal nocturnal behavior? Thanks Subject: Re: Cat behavior and red light From: Patricia Simonet Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:45:04 -0800 To: "Martin, Francois" CC: applied-ethology network Hello François, I was curious about my cats nocturnal adventures, so I purchased a video baby monitor. The camera allows one to see the images without lights. Many of the new video recording cameras also include a low light feature that allows recording without lights. Recently, I recorded a skunk who had dug into my cats' outside enclosure (my cats were in the enclosure at the time!). Again, I recorded at night without lights (while I herded the skunk out). My cats' strange behavior was intriguing. Instead of retreating into our house, they circled slowly around the enclosure (staying at opposite ends of the enclosure from the skunk). They were not stalking, nor behaving stressed. They appeared almost as if they had a morbid curiosity - like people looking at accidents at the side of the road. At any rate, instead of using red lights, look into the video cameras that require little or no light. Trisha Patricia Simonet Spokane WA On Jan 25, 2008, at 7:24 AM, Martin, Francois wrote: > I am interested in cats' activity levels at night. I am planning on videotaping cats at night and using red light so we can see. Is anybody aware of studies that looked at if red light actually has an effect on cats? In other word, would the use of red light modifiy the cats' normal nocturnal behavior? > > Thanks Subject: Re: Cat behavior and red light From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:12:32 +0000 To: "Martin, Francois" , applied-ethology network Martin, do you mean visible red light or infra-red light? In some ways it does not matter because I know of no studies looking at the effects of either for cats, but you are probably less likely to get behavioural effects if you use infra-red rather than visible red. Chris --On 25 January 2008 07:24 -0800 "Martin, Francois" wrote: > > > > > I am interested in cats' activity levels at night. I am planning on > videotaping cats at night and using red light so we can see. Is anybody > aware of studies that looked at if red light actually has an effect on > cats? In other word, would the use of red light modifiy the cats' normal > nocturnal behavior? > > Thanks ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: Cat behavior and red light From: catbehavior@cox.net Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 11:26:57 -0500 To: applied-ethology network , "Martin, Francois" I film cats in shelter kennels. While not completely dark, the lighting is poor, and black cats at the back of the kennel can be difficult to see. We use a Sony DVD Handycam (http://tinyurl.com/2np3ow). It's relatively inexpensive ($350 USD), and the video records straight to DVD, which is really nice. We have had great success with it. "Super NightShot® Plus Infrared System With Sony's Super NightShot Infrared System you can capture natural looking video, even when shooting in low light. Record subjects up to 20 feet away using the built-in infrared system, but without the overall monochrome color common with earlier low-light recording systems" Kitty ---- "Martin wrote: I am interested in cats' activity levels at night. I am planning on videotaping cats at night and using red light so we can see. Is anybody aware of studies that looked at if red light actually has an effect on cats? In other word, would the use of red light modifiy the cats' normal nocturnal behavior? Thanks Subject: Re: Cat behavior and red light From: Anna Olsson Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:35:26 +0000 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca, "Martin, Francois" I also like working with the NightShot function of Sony Handycams in situations where we can't use CCTV-cams and separate recorders. A separate infra-red light in the distant part of the area you want to film would probably get around the problem of IRlight of the camera not reaching so far. In our lab, we use one or two IR leds projecting towards the white ceiling, which gives good illumination with no reflexes. If you are working in areas with low light rather than no ligth (for instance outside in areas where streetlights would give some illumination), you may want to consider a camera that work with low light levels rather than one which is infra-red sensitive. But you need to try them under the conditions where they will work. Regards, Anna *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 25-01-2008 at 11:26 catbehavior@cox.net wrote: > >I film cats in shelter kennels. While not completely dark, the lighting > >is poor, and black cats at the back of the kennel can be difficult to see. > > We use a Sony DVD Handycam (http://tinyurl.com/2np3ow). It's relatively > >inexpensive ($350 USD), and the video records straight to DVD, which is > >really nice. We have had great success with it. > > > >"Super NightShot® Plus Infrared System > >With Sony's Super NightShot Infrared System you can capture natural > >looking video, even when shooting in low light. Record subjects up to 20 > >feet away using the built-in infrared system, but without the overall > >monochrome color common with earlier low-light recording systems" > > > >Kitty > > > >---- "Martin wrote: > >I am interested in cats' activity levels at night. I am planning on > >videotaping cats at night and using red light so we can see. Is anybody > >aware of studies that looked at if red light actually has an effect on > >cats? In other word, would the use of red light modifiy the cats' normal > >nocturnal behavior? > > > >Thanks Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Laboratory Animal Science group http://www.ibmc.up.pt http://ethos.no.sapo.pt Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 Subject: RE: Cat behavior and red light From: "Martin, Francois" Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:21:45 -0800 To: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" , applied-ethology network Thanks for pointing this out, Chris. I should have wrote "infra-red." From: CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] Sent: Fri 1/25/2008 8:12 AM To: Martin, Francois; applied-ethology network Subject: Re: Cat behavior and red light Martin, do you mean visible red light or infra-red light? In some ways it does not matter because I know of no studies looking at the effects of either for cats, but you are probably less likely to get behavioural effects if you use infra-red rather than visible red. Chris --On 25 January 2008 07:24 -0800 "Martin, Francois" wrote: > > > > > I am interested in cats' activity levels at night. I am planning on > videotaping cats at night and using red light so we can see. Is anybody > aware of studies that looked at if red light actually has an effect on > cats? In other word, would the use of red light modifiy the cats' normal > nocturnal behavior? > > Thanks ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 Subject: Re: Cat behavior and red light From: Janice Willard Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 11:06:23 -0800 To: applied-ethology network Hi Francois, I don't know if this is of any help, but Veterinary Behaviorist Sharon Crowell-Davis once pointed out to me something that should be obvious to me, but was not. She said that it is often said that cats can see in the dark. But this is not really correct--cats can see in dim light, not complete darkness. She said this in regards to a cat litter box problem where the cat was using the box in the day but not in the night. It turned out that adding a couple of small night lights along the pathway to the litterbox, which was in a basement and completely dark after night had fallen, solved the night-time failure to use the litter box problem. She told me that people often fail to realize that cats also need light to see--just not as much light as we do. So if you are using a highly sensitive filming technique (as some here have mentioned) and your observers are using some kind of night goggle that increases the illumination to the human eye from low level ambient lighting, you may not need to add any additional light at all, thus making the red light question a moot point. Alternatively, I have heard that there are now cameras available that the cats themselves could wear. Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS Moscow, ID, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin, Francois To: applied-ethology network Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 7:24 AM Subject: Cat behavior and red light I am interested in cats' activity levels at night. I am planning on videotaping cats at night and using red light so we can see. Is anybody aware of studies that looked at if red light actually has an effect on cats? In other word, would the use of red light modifiy the cats' normal nocturnal behavior? Thanks No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.10/1241 - Release Date: 1/24/2008 9:58 AM Subject: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: joseph stookey Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:57:00 -0600 To: applied-ethology network Hi Everyone, This year, as an assignment I had my students develop brochures on behaviour problems seen in captive or domestic animals. A sub part of the assignment was to critically review a brochure that was produced by another student. Several brochures were made on cribbing in horses and most of them mentioned the "fact" that there is no substantial evidence that cribbing is contagious or that horses that are stalled next to a cribber are more likely to develop the habit. One reviewer said, "I don't see why cribbing would be impossible to learn!" And she stated her obvious skepticism and remarked she would never take the chance and would not stall her horse next to a known cribber. I think the student raises an interesting point. Is there a definite answer to this question? Is it impossible for horses to learn how to crib from another horse or do we just not have any strong evidence that they do? Is there any recent evidence one way or the other on this topic? Cheers, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Professor of Applied Ethology Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:17:52 -0700 To: applied-ethology network "Cribbing" is a product of horse domestication where a horse can not graze much of the day and instead is feed at fixed intervals. Horses have a innate predisposition to chew, which is a structurally defined, mood dependent, coordinated motor pattern. They therefore tend to chew on anything chewable from wooden barn and corral structures to nearby tree trunks. When horses are in a large pasture with lots of grass, they don't crib. Also, horses do not have the capacity to learn by imitation. That capability is restricted to only a few taxa, such as primates, some sea mammals and some birds. Therefore, horses can not learn to crib by watching their stall mate crib. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "joseph stookey" To: "applied-ethology network" Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > Hi Everyone, > > This year, as an assignment I had my students develop brochures on behaviour problems seen in captive or domestic animals. A sub part of the assignment was to critically review a brochure that was produced by another student. Several brochures were made on cribbing in horses and most of them mentioned the "fact" that there is no substantial evidence that cribbing is contagious or that horses that are stalled next to a cribber are more likely to develop the habit. One reviewer said, "I don't see why cribbing would be impossible to learn!" And she stated her obvious skepticism and remarked she would never take the chance and would not stall her horse next to a known cribber. > > I think the student raises an interesting point. Is there a definite answer to this question? Is it impossible for horses to learn how to crib from another horse or do we just not have any strong evidence that they do? > > Is there any recent evidence one way or the other on this topic? > > Cheers, > > Joe > > -- > Joseph M. Stookey > Professor of Applied Ethology > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > University of Saskatchewan > 52 Campus Drive > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > Canada S7N 5B4 > > Tel 306-966-7154 > Fax 306-966-7159 > > Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Andy Beck Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:23:45 +1300 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Joe - If cribbing is a reaction by an individual organism to its environment, specifically environmental stress - which is most likely, then perhaps it could be viewed as similar to a facial tic in a person under stress. Other people in that same stressful environment don't 'catch' the tic, and there Are a variety of other possible reactions to the stress that they might adopt or develop - equally it's not impossible for another person in that same environment to develop a similar tic. Could you prove conclusively that the second had not copied the behaviour? Probably not - but I don't think we would usually make the assumption - whereas notions about 'cribbing' were mostly developed at a time when such things were considered 'vices' - rather than the stereotypies they actually are. An awful lot of people still keep horses in stables, and are not at all inclined to accept that it represents a hostile environment - so the mythology surrounding cribbing persists. For me the clue is in the reviewer being prepared to keep a horse in a stall when all logic should inform against such a practice - given the apparent inability to allow logic to inform why would it be assumed that her comments had any merit? My guess is that they don't and that there will never be any proof that the behaviour is contagious in any sense. Regards Andy Beck www.equine-behavior.com -----Original Message----- From: joseph stookey [mailto:joseph.stookey@usask.ca] Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 9:57 a.m. To: applied-ethology network Subject: Cribbing: Can it be learned? Hi Everyone, This year, as an assignment I had my students develop brochures on behaviour problems seen in captive or domestic animals. A sub part of the assignment was to critically review a brochure that was produced by another student. Several brochures were made on cribbing in horses and most of them mentioned the "fact" that there is no substantial evidence that cribbing is contagious or that horses that are stalled next to a cribber are more likely to develop the habit. One reviewer said, "I don't see why cribbing would be impossible to learn!" And she stated her obvious skepticism and remarked she would never take the chance and would not stall her horse next to a known cribber. I think the student raises an interesting point. Is there a definite answer to this question? Is it impossible for horses to learn how to crib from another horse or do we just not have any strong evidence that they do? Is there any recent evidence one way or the other on this topic? Cheers, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Professor of Applied Ethology Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: FW: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Andy Beck Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:35:19 +1300 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Very surprised to read that horses do not have the capacity to 'learn by imitation' (I assume this means to imitate what they see other horses doing?) - having watched them do precisely that on a number of occasions. I guess there must be a logical explanation for the belief - could I ask what it is? Regards Andy Beck -----Original Message----- From: Jay R. Feierman [mailto:jfeierman@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 11:18 a.m. To: applied-ethology network Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? "Cribbing" is a product of horse domestication where a horse can not graze much of the day and instead is feed at fixed intervals. Horses have a innate predisposition to chew, which is a structurally defined, mood dependent, coordinated motor pattern. They therefore tend to chew on anything chewable from wooden barn and corral structures to nearby tree trunks. When horses are in a large pasture with lots of grass, they don't crib. Also, horses do not have the capacity to learn by imitation. That capability is restricted to only a few taxa, such as primates, some sea mammals and some birds. Therefore, horses can not learn to crib by watching their stall mate crib. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "joseph stookey" To: "applied-ethology network" Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > Hi Everyone, > > > > This year, as an assignment I had my students develop brochures on > > behaviour problems seen in captive or domestic animals. A sub part of the > > assignment was to critically review a brochure that was produced by > > another student. Several brochures were made on cribbing in horses and > > most of them mentioned the "fact" that there is no substantial evidence > > that cribbing is contagious or that horses that are stalled next to a > > cribber are more likely to develop the habit. One reviewer said, "I don't > > see why cribbing would be impossible to learn!" And she stated her obvious > > skepticism and remarked she would never take the chance and would not > > stall her horse next to a known cribber. > > > > I think the student raises an interesting point. Is there a definite > > answer to this question? Is it impossible for horses to learn how to crib > > from another horse or do we just not have any strong evidence that they > > do? > > > > Is there any recent evidence one way or the other on this topic? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Joe > > > > -- > > Joseph M. Stookey > > Professor of Applied Ethology > > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences > > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > > University of Saskatchewan > > 52 Campus Drive > > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > > Canada S7N 5B4 > > > > Tel 306-966-7154 > > Fax 306-966-7159 > > > > Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Nancy Diehl Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:00:36 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I have not seen a lot of scientific papers out there on observational learning in horses. Below is one that is often cited showing that horses didn't learn any faster how to open a bin for a food reward when allowed to observe a demonstrator. Oh, also weaving horses stop weaving when they have mirrors, so watching themselves weave doesn't seem to increase or cause to continue that behavior. But of course, no evidence yet to confirm horses can learn by observation doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I am also in the camp that believes cribbing is not learned by watching others but rather a manifestation of in-common environmental factors. ************************** Effects of observational learning on acquisition of an operant response in horses A. C. Lindberg*, A. Kelland and C. J. Nicol Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, Bristol, BS40 5DU, UK Accepted 8 June 1998. Available online 30 November 1998. Abstract The effect of observational learning on the acquisition of an operant response was examined in eighteen riding horses and ponies. The test horses were randomly divided into three groups of six and individually exposed to one of three treatments. An additional horse was trained as a demonstrator, to perform the operant response. The observer horses watched either the demonstrator performing the bin-opening response (Group D+B); the demonstrator standing passively (Group D); or the operant bin in the absence of the demonstrator (Group B). Observers had access to and were free to interact with an identical bin during testing. Observers in Groups D+B and D were socially familiar with the demonstrator. Each test horse was tested once a day for 10 days. An ANOVA revealed no significant differences between treatment groups in the number of responses or the time taken to reach the learning criterion. However, there were highly significant differences between breed types, with non-warmbloods performing more bouts of opening the bin and feeding (p=0.02), feeding from the bin sooner (p=0.01) and reaching the criterion for learning sooner than warmbloods (p=0.05). There was also a significant negative linear relationship between horses' ages and time spent investigating the bin, with younger horses performing more investigative behaviour (y=-3.08x+106.86; p=0.02). Author Keywords: Horse; Observational learning; Stereotyped behaviour; Operant behaviour; Breed influence; Age influence *Corresponding author. Tel.: +44-117-928-9473; fax: +44-117-928-9368; e-mail: a.c.lindberg@bristol.ac.uk ************************************* Nancy Nancy Kate Diehl, MS, VMD The Charles Farm email nkdiehl@pa.net in beautiful Perry County, PA ! -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@xtra.co.nz] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 5:35 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: FW: Cribbing: Can it be learned? Very surprised to read that horses do not have the capacity to 'learn by imitation' (I assume this means to imitate what they see other horses doing?) - having watched them do precisely that on a number of occasions. I guess there must be a logical explanation for the belief - could I ask what it is? Regards Andy Beck -----Original Message----- From: Jay R. Feierman [mailto:jfeierman@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 11:18 a.m. To: applied-ethology network Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? "Cribbing" is a product of horse domestication where a horse can not graze much of the day and instead is feed at fixed intervals. Horses have a innate predisposition to chew, which is a structurally defined, mood dependent, coordinated motor pattern. They therefore tend to chew on anything chewable from wooden barn and corral structures to nearby tree trunks. When horses are in a large pasture with lots of grass, they don't crib. Also, horses do not have the capacity to learn by imitation. That capability is restricted to only a few taxa, such as primates, some sea mammals and some birds. Therefore, horses can not learn to crib by watching their stall mate crib. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "joseph stookey" To: "applied-ethology network" Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > Hi Everyone, > > > > This year, as an assignment I had my students develop brochures on > > behaviour problems seen in captive or domestic animals. A sub part of the > > assignment was to critically review a brochure that was produced by > > another student. Several brochures were made on cribbing in horses and > > most of them mentioned the "fact" that there is no substantial evidence > > that cribbing is contagious or that horses that are stalled next to a > > cribber are more likely to develop the habit. One reviewer said, "I don't > > see why cribbing would be impossible to learn!" And she stated her obvious > > skepticism and remarked she would never take the chance and would not > > stall her horse next to a known cribber. > > > > I think the student raises an interesting point. Is there a definite > > answer to this question? Is it impossible for horses to learn how to crib > > from another horse or do we just not have any strong evidence that they > > do? > > > > Is there any recent evidence one way or the other on this topic? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Joe > > > > -- > > Joseph M. Stookey > > Professor of Applied Ethology > > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences > > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > > University of Saskatchewan > > 52 Campus Drive > > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > > Canada S7N 5B4 > > > > Tel 306-966-7154 > > Fax 306-966-7159 > > > > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:09:57 -0700 To: applied-ethology network Hello Lore, If horses that have always been in pasture or wild horsed cribbed, that would be different than a horse who has previously spent time in a barn or corral without the opportunity to graze at will and picked up the habit. Once the habit is acquired, perhaps it is difficult to break, even when the horse is now in pasture. Is there any evidence that horses in the wild crib on tree trunks when there is plenty of grass to eat? If so, another hypothesis is that horses crib (chew on hard wood) to clean their teeth. Also, what about other ungulates besides horses. If cribbing is part of the normal behavioral repertoire of some horses, maybe it is also so for other ungulates. Another hypothesis is that there are nutrients in tree bark which could cause some horses to crib on tree trunks. All of this is just my speculation. Surely this topic has been studied. I'm just not aware of the current literature. Here's a link but I don't see any real answers. http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=g56h6SUMy0AC&oi=fnd&pg=PA99&dq=cribbing+horse&ots=uk1PchHb67&sig=0tp6KxSm7eiJEOoD9KdjwMwogPE . I note that in a Google Scholar search for "cribbing," almost all of the articles were on treatment and almost none on cause. Maybe the treatment would be more effective if more research into the cause were done. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Here's are some abstracts from Google Scholar: The Veterinary Record, Vol 148, Issue 19, 592-596 Copyright © 2001 by British Veterinary Association Study of the behaviour, digestive efficiency and gut transit times of crib-biting horses P. D. McGreevy BVSc, PhD, MRCVS1, A. J. F. Webster MA, VetMB, PhD, MRCVS1, and C. J. Nicol BA, PhD1 1 Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, Bristol BS18 7DU The spontaneous behaviour and the apparent digestibility of dry matter and fibre and transit times of digesta were compared in four normal horses and four crib-biters. A technique was developed for measuring total gut transit times (TGTT) by using single-stool analysis of the passage of radio-opaque polyethylene markers. Longer TGTT were recorded in the crib-biters than in the normal horses but the orocaecal transit times did not differ. The crib-biters rested less than the normal horses. ____________ Crib-Biting: Tethered Horses in the Palaeolithic? Paul G. Bahn World Archaeology, Vol. 12, No. 2, Early Man: Some Precise Moments in the Remote Past (Oct., 1980), pp. 212-217 Abstract Crib-biting is a common 'stable vice' among horses, which seems directly linked to boredom and prolonged inactive confinement. It wcars down the incisor teeth in a characteristic way. Some examples from one Middle and one Upper Palaeolithic site in France are presented in this preliminary paper, which reports on research that is still under way. As the practice is not thought to occur in animals at liberty, the presence of this tooth-wear in archaeological collections may constitute a reliable proof of tethering, and thus is of interest not only to the Palaeolithic but also to all later periods. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lore Haug" To: Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:27 PM Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > > When horses are in a large pasture with lots of grass, they don't crib. >>> > > I have seen horses on 24 hour pasture turnout develop a cribbing problem. In the one case that comes to mind, the cause was unknown (owner never worked it up) but I suspected a gut acidosis problem related to the horse's supplemental grain. (and btw, there were no other cribbing animals on the entire farm, so he did not learn it from anyone either.) > > > > Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC > South Texas Veterinary Behavior Services > 2627 Cordes Dr. > Sugar Land, TX 77479 > 281-980-3737 > 281-265-5584 fax > lihaug@aol.com > www.texasvetbehavior.com > APDT #692, NADOI #769, IAABC > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:22:35 -0700 To: cijohn Verizon CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Would that not be association learning and operant (conditioning) learning, rather than learning by observation or imitation? Species which can learn by observation or imitation, sometimes called "social learning," are capable of developing culture. I'm not aware that there are horse cultures where one barn field of horses has behaviors which are widespread and different from the behaviors of other horses in other barns or fields. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: cijohn Verizon To: Jay R. Feierman Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? I don’t know how folks here feel about the clicker training people, but Karen Pryor seems to think horses probably do learn by observation or imitation: More animals than you think can learn by observation IF there is a marker signal in use. An animal that has learned to "try to make you click" by its own behavior; and that then has a chance to see, but not participate in, some other species mate getting clicked for a new behavior...can often, given the opportunity, go out and exhibit the new behavior on the first try. The key element is the click in both cases. [You know what you clicked the first animal for, and you know the second animal has not been clicked for that behavior, and has never exhibited it in your presence.] Without the click, if you see two animals doing the same thing you might be seeing imitation and you might not, and it's very hard to be sure what's going on. I have reports from many horse trainers that in a barn full of clicker-wise horses, if you teach one horse in the barn aisle to do something new, to hold up a foot, say, the onlookers can and sometimes do offer you the same behavior when they get their turn to be clicked. Same with cats, and in my personal experience clicker-wise cats will sometimes try to do behaviors they saw dogs get clicked for. A lot of the bird clicker people are reporting this event too, unsurprisingly, since many of the smarter birds such as corvids and psitticines show a lot of capacity for mimicry, especially but not limited to acoustic behavior. I have recently written about this in an invited commentary on a paper on culture in marine mammals, for Brain and Behavior, a Cambridge University journal, and I will be glad to give the citation when I know what issue it will be in. http://www.clickertraining.com/node/230 On 1/25/08 5:17 PM, "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: > "Cribbing" is a product of horse domestication where a horse can not graze > much of the day and instead is feed at fixed intervals. Horses have a innate > predisposition to chew, which is a structurally defined, mood dependent, > coordinated motor pattern. They therefore tend to chew on anything chewable > from wooden barn and corral structures to nearby tree trunks. When horses > are in a large pasture with lots of grass, they don't crib. Also, horses do > not have the capacity to learn by imitation. That capability is restricted > to only a few taxa, such as primates, some sea mammals and some birds. > Therefore, horses can not learn to crib by watching their stall mate crib. > > Regards, > Jay R. Feierman > Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "joseph stookey" > To: "applied-ethology network" > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:57 PM > Subject: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> This year, as an assignment I had my students develop brochures on >> behaviour problems seen in captive or domestic animals. A sub part of the >> assignment was to critically review a brochure that was produced by >> another student. Several brochures were made on cribbing in horses and >> most of them mentioned the "fact" that there is no substantial evidence >> that cribbing is contagious or that horses that are stalled next to a >> cribber are more likely to develop the habit. One reviewer said, "I don't >> see why cribbing would be impossible to learn!" And she stated her obvious >> skepticism and remarked she would never take the chance and would not >> stall her horse next to a known cribber. >> >> I think the student raises an interesting point. Is there a definite >> answer to this question? Is it impossible for horses to learn how to crib >> from another horse or do we just not have any strong evidence that they >> do? >> >> Is there any recent evidence one way or the other on this topic? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Joseph M. Stookey >> Professor of Applied Ethology >> Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences >> Western College of Veterinary Medicine >> University of Saskatchewan >> 52 Campus Drive >> Saskatoon, Saskatchewan >> Canada S7N 5B4 >> >> Tel 306-966-7154 >> Fax 306-966-7159 >> >> > > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:31:26 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hello Andy, If horses could learn by observation or imitation, they would be able to develop local culture. I'm not aware of any group of horses which on their own developed widespread behavior that is not species typical. In contrast Japanese Macaques in some locations have learned to clean the sand off of sweat potatoes by washing them in water. Once the behavior was discovered by one Macaque, it quickly spread through the colony by observation. There are other examples of learning by observation in some bird taxa. I've observed it in crows where one crow figured out how to get seeds out of a finch feeder by flying up from the ground and banging it with its feet. The crows watching then did the same thing. However, learning by imitation or observation, often called "social learning" is rare among the animals of the world and is only present in a few taxa. For example, I'm not aware of any evidence that a dog can learn by imitation. By that I mean watch you or another dog do something and then copy what it just observed with no reinforcement involved. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Beck" To: Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:35 PM Subject: FW: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > Very surprised to read that horses do not have the capacity to 'learn by > imitation' (I assume this means to imitate what they see other horses > doing?) - having watched them do precisely that on a number of occasions. > > I guess there must be a logical explanation for the belief - could I ask > what it is? > > Regards > Andy Beck > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay R. Feierman [mailto:jfeierman@comcast.net] > Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 11:18 a.m. > To: applied-ethology network > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > "Cribbing" is a product of horse domestication where a horse can not graze > much of the day and instead is feed at fixed intervals. Horses have a innate > > predisposition to chew, which is a structurally defined, mood dependent, > coordinated motor pattern. They therefore tend to chew on anything chewable > from wooden barn and corral structures to nearby tree trunks. When horses > are in a large pasture with lots of grass, they don't crib. Also, horses do > not have the capacity to learn by imitation. That capability is restricted > to only a few taxa, such as primates, some sea mammals and some birds. > Therefore, horses can not learn to crib by watching their stall mate crib. > > Regards, > Jay R. Feierman > Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "joseph stookey" > To: "applied-ethology network" > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:57 PM > Subject: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> This year, as an assignment I had my students develop brochures on >> behaviour problems seen in captive or domestic animals. A sub part of the > >> assignment was to critically review a brochure that was produced by >> another student. Several brochures were made on cribbing in horses and >> most of them mentioned the "fact" that there is no substantial evidence >> that cribbing is contagious or that horses that are stalled next to a >> cribber are more likely to develop the habit. One reviewer said, "I don't > >> see why cribbing would be impossible to learn!" And she stated her obvious > >> skepticism and remarked she would never take the chance and would not >> stall her horse next to a known cribber. >> >> I think the student raises an interesting point. Is there a definite >> answer to this question? Is it impossible for horses to learn how to crib > >> from another horse or do we just not have any strong evidence that they >> do? >> >> Is there any recent evidence one way or the other on this topic? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Joseph M. Stookey >> Professor of Applied Ethology >> Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences >> Western College of Veterinary Medicine >> University of Saskatchewan >> 52 Campus Drive >> Saskatoon, Saskatchewan >> Canada S7N 5B4 >> >> Tel 306-966-7154 >> Fax 306-966-7159 >> >> > > > Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Andy Beck Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:42:40 +1300 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I think one of the problems with tests to assess observational learning in horses is that they very often ignore status. In common with people horses learn best from those they trust and respect - so choice of a higher status group member as the 'demonstrator' is likely to be more effective than if a lower status or unknown horse is used. Equally they seem to learn those things that have most 'equine-appeal' far better than manipulative tasks, that would perhaps be more appropriate to a manipulative species, such as a primate, or a Parrot, or a Rat - all of which manipulate items as a common element of their daily behaviour. For horses you achieve a far better result if the task is one more appropriate to their nature, perhaps to do with fast all-body movement. Take horses from an established social group - run the higher status member into a large round pen, with the rest of the group watching - put high status member through a set of simple tasks involving moving in either direction, and at differing speeds. Remove the first and then bring in the next two in the status order, who will grasp what is required far more rapidly, having watched the first with a great deal of interest - now remove those two and bring in another 3 or 4 - and by this stage very little is required in order to get the same results without the trial and error element present in first and second. So, are they 'great' observational learners - no, are they able to learn through observation - yes. Perhaps the degree to which they are able to learn by observation decreases with age, along with their curiosity, but in the foal social facilitation is essential in watching the mare and learning about grazing habits etc - so it seems highly unlikely that they are incapable - but not particularly proficient certainly. Regards Andy Beck www.equine-behavior.com -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Diehl [mailto:nkdiehl@pa.net] Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 12:01 p.m. To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? I have not seen a lot of scientific papers out there on observational learning in horses. Below is one that is often cited showing that horses didn't learn any faster how to open a bin for a food reward when allowed to observe a demonstrator. Oh, also weaving horses stop weaving when they have mirrors, so watching themselves weave doesn't seem to increase or cause to continue that behavior. But of course, no evidence yet to confirm horses can learn by observation doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I am also in the camp that believes cribbing is not learned by watching others but rather a manifestation of in-common environmental factors. ************************** Effects of observational learning on acquisition of an operant response in horses A. C. Lindberg*, A. Kelland and C. J. Nicol Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, Bristol, BS40 5DU, UK Accepted 8 June 1998. Available online 30 November 1998. Abstract The effect of observational learning on the acquisition of an operant response was examined in eighteen riding horses and ponies. The test horses were randomly divided into three groups of six and individually exposed to one of three treatments. An additional horse was trained as a demonstrator, to perform the operant response. The observer horses watched either the demonstrator performing the bin-opening response (Group D+B); the demonstrator standing passively (Group D); or the operant bin in the absence of the demonstrator (Group B). Observers had access to and were free to interact with an identical bin during testing. Observers in Groups D+B and D were socially familiar with the demonstrator. Each test horse was tested once a day for 10 days. An ANOVA revealed no significant differences between treatment groups in the number of responses or the time taken to reach the learning criterion. However, there were highly significant differences between breed types, with non-warmbloods performing more bouts of opening the bin and feeding (p=0.02), feeding from the bin sooner (p=0.01) and reaching the criterion for learning sooner than warmbloods (p=0.05). There was also a significant negative linear relationship between horses' ages and time spent investigating the bin, with younger horses performing more investigative behaviour (y=-3.08x+106.86; p=0.02). Author Keywords: Horse; Observational learning; Stereotyped behaviour; Operant behaviour; Breed influence; Age influence *Corresponding author. Tel.: +44-117-928-9473; fax: +44-117-928-9368; e-mail: a.c.lindberg@bristol.ac.uk ************************************* Nancy Nancy Kate Diehl, MS, VMD The Charles Farm email nkdiehl@pa.net in beautiful Perry County, PA ! -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@xtra.co.nz] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 5:35 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: FW: Cribbing: Can it be learned? Very surprised to read that horses do not have the capacity to 'learn by imitation' (I assume this means to imitate what they see other horses doing?) - having watched them do precisely that on a number of occasions. I guess there must be a logical explanation for the belief - could I ask what it is? Regards Andy Beck -----Original Message----- From: Jay R. Feierman [mailto:jfeierman@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 11:18 a.m. To: applied-ethology network Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? "Cribbing" is a product of horse domestication where a horse can not graze much of the day and instead is feed at fixed intervals. Horses have a innate predisposition to chew, which is a structurally defined, mood dependent, coordinated motor pattern. They therefore tend to chew on anything chewable from wooden barn and corral structures to nearby tree trunks. When horses are in a large pasture with lots of grass, they don't crib. Also, horses do not have the capacity to learn by imitation. That capability is restricted to only a few taxa, such as primates, some sea mammals and some birds. Therefore, horses can not learn to crib by watching their stall mate crib. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "joseph stookey" To: "applied-ethology network" Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > Hi Everyone, > > > > This year, as an assignment I had my students develop brochures on > > behaviour problems seen in captive or domestic animals. A sub part of the > > assignment was to critically review a brochure that was produced by > > another student. Several brochures were made on cribbing in horses and > > most of them mentioned the "fact" that there is no substantial evidence > > that cribbing is contagious or that horses that are stalled next to a > > cribber are more likely to develop the habit. One reviewer said, "I don't > > see why cribbing would be impossible to learn!" And she stated her obvious > > skepticism and remarked she would never take the chance and would not > > stall her horse next to a known cribber. > > > > I think the student raises an interesting point. Is there a definite > > answer to this question? Is it impossible for horses to learn how to crib > > from another horse or do we just not have any strong evidence that they > > do? > > > > Is there any recent evidence one way or the other on this topic? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Joe > > > > -- > > Joseph M. Stookey > > Professor of Applied Ethology > > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences > > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > > University of Saskatchewan > > 52 Campus Drive > > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > > Canada S7N 5B4 > > > > Tel 306-966-7154 > > Fax 306-966-7159 > > > > Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Andy Beck Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:01:49 +1300 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Jay – you’re using a comparison with manipulative species to measure yet again – which I don’t think is necessarily reasonable. Having maintained a research herd of horses for 16 years or so now, with social behaviour as the focus rather than the other areas of focus that are more usual in horse research, I believe that horses do indeed develop local culture – the memes of which have to do specifically with the environment, and successfully underwrite survival in that environment. Is it a complex culture in the way that groups of manipulative animals develop – no – but then we shouldn’t be looking for it in a species that is very poorly adapted to manipulate. There are several projects that have been established to reintroduce Equus Przewalski to the wild – and all have had generally very poor success. The animals reintroduced are generally from zoos or other captive programs – and if they have a culture it is of dependence on human assistance. The same has been found with predators – again species that are not well designed for manipulation. The survival rate is only about 30%, very often because fears (specifically of people) are not passed on, and the ability to hunt successfully, which many would, in the wild state, learn from watching adult strategies, is inadequate. These behaviors may not make up ‘culture’ as we think of it – but for a non-manipulative species perhaps we have to be a bit more flexible and allow that culture is going to have a different, or distinct, non-manipulative, character? Regards Andy Beck www.equine-behavior.com From: Jay R. Feierman [mailto:jfeierman@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 12:31 p.m. To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? Hello Andy, If horses could learn by observation or imitation, they would be able to develop local culture. I'm not aware of any group of horses which on their own developed widespread behavior that is not species typical. In contrast Japanese Macaques in some locations have learned to clean the sand off of sweat potatoes by washing them in water. Once the behavior was discovered by one Macaque, it quickly spread through the colony by observation. There are other examples of learning by observation in some bird taxa. I've observed it in crows where one crow figured out how to get seeds out of a finch feeder by flying up from the ground and banging it with its feet. The crows watching then did the same thing. However, learning by imitation or observation, often called "social learning" is rare among the animals of the world and is only present in a few taxa. For example, I'm not aware of any evidence that a dog can learn by imitation. By that I mean watch you or another dog do something and then copy what it just observed with no reinforcement involved. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Beck" To: Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:35 PM Subject: FW: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > Very surprised to read that horses do not have the capacity to 'learn by > imitation' (I assume this means to imitate what they see other horses > doing?) - having watched them do precisely that on a number of occasions. > > I guess there must be a logical explanation for the belief - could I ask > what it is? > > Regards > Andy Beck > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay R. Feierman [mailto:jfeierman@comcast.net] > Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 11:18 a.m. > To: applied-ethology network > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > "Cribbing" is a product of horse domestication where a horse can not graze > much of the day and instead is feed at fixed intervals. Horses have a innate > > predisposition to chew, which is a structurally defined, mood dependent, > coordinated motor pattern. They therefore tend to chew on anything chewable > from wooden barn and corral structures to nearby tree trunks. When horses > are in a large pasture with lots of grass, they don't crib. Also, horses do > not have the capacity to learn by imitation. That capability is restricted > to only a few taxa, such as primates, some sea mammals and some birds. > Therefore, horses can not learn to crib by watching their stall mate crib. > > Regards, > Jay R. Feierman > Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "joseph stookey" > To: "applied-ethology network" > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:57 PM > Subject: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> This year, as an assignment I had my students develop brochures on >> behaviour problems seen in captive or domestic animals. A sub part of the > >> assignment was to critically review a brochure that was produced by >> another student. Several brochures were made on cribbing in horses and >> most of them mentioned the "fact" that there is no substantial evidence >> that cribbing is contagious or that horses that are stalled next to a >> cribber are more likely to develop the habit. One reviewer said, "I don't > >> see why cribbing would be impossible to learn!" And she stated her obvious > >> skepticism and remarked she would never take the chance and would not >> stall her horse next to a known cribber. >> >> I think the student raises an interesting point. Is there a definite >> answer to this question? Is it impossible for horses to learn how to crib > >> from another horse or do we just not have any strong evidence that they >> do? >> >> Is there any recent evidence one way or the other on this topic? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Joseph M. Stookey >> Professor of Applied Ethology >> Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences >> Western College of Veterinary Medicine >> University of Saskatchewan >> 52 Campus Drive >> Saskatoon, Saskatchewan >> Canada S7N 5B4 >> >> Tel 306-966-7154 >> Fax 306-966-7159 >> >> > > > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:03:56 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Andy Beck: Take horses from an established social group - run the higher status member into a large round pen, with the rest of the group watching - put high status member through a set of simple tasks involving moving in either direction, and at differing speeds. Remove the first and then bring in the next two in the status order, who will grasp what is required far more rapidly, having watched the first with a great deal of interest - now remove those two and bring in another 3 or 4 - and by this stage very little is required in order to get the same results without the trial and error element present in first and second. So, are they 'great' observational learners - no, are they able to learn through observation - yes. Perhaps the degree to which they are able to learn by observation decreases with age, along with their curiosity, but in the foal social facilitation is essential in watching the mare and learning about grazing habits etc - so it seems highly unlikely that they are incapable - but not particularly proficient certainly. Jay R. Feierman: As far as I know no ungulate is capable of observational learning under natural conditions, otherwise you would find local ungulate cultures, which is not found. What you are describing above is the following behavior of horses. They are social ungulates and have an innate predisposition to follow other horses. The social status of the horse which is followed may be a significant variable. If one is riding a horse, who is with a group of say five other horses, all with riders, and the five horses suddenly move away, it take a fair amount of horsepersonship to keep the one horse from following. That is not imitation learning. That is simply following behavior. If one extends your argument to its extreme, then teleost (bony fish) who swim in large schools would also be imitation learners. They are not. In the few taxa which are capable of imitation learning, they have the capacity to generate behavior which is more flexible than the structurally defined, mood dependent, coordinated motor patterns which characterize the behavior of the non-imitation-learning vertebrate taxa. These more flexible behaviors can not be defined by their form or structure, only by their function. When taxa which are not capable of imitation learn something, they can only modify the timing and orientation of their structurally defined, mood dependent, coordinated motor patterns. For example they can learn which direction to walk, when to start walking, and how fast to walk. They can not modify the form of their behavior. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Nancy Diehl Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 19:10:53 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Andy and All, Andy, could you please define for me the scientific meaning of an individual one horse would "trust and respect" ? I guess I don't understand what that means. I guess a subordinate member of a group would "respect" a more dominant horse, particularly with regards to access to limiting resources, but does that equate to "trust"? How does one accurately define a human emotional state such as respect or trust in the context of an animal's behavior? Also, I would have to suggest that horses, though without opposable thumbs, are quite good at manipulation, both with limbs and nose. In addition, horses are highly motivated by food so if they were to learn a task, I think one with a food reward would be the thing to do. Of course, some believe that stereotypies are rewarding. Oh, one more thing I'd like to add. I have not really studied this area - that's my caveat - but I don't think social facilitation is equivalent to observational learning. My understanding is that the presence of other individuals may increase the likelihood of a behavior occurring is social facilitation. Presence doesn't necessarily mean demonstrator. Thanks, Nancy Nancy Kate Diehl, MS, VMD The Charles Farm email nkdiehl@pa.net in beautiful Perry County, PA ! -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@xtra.co.nz] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 6:43 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? I think one of the problems with tests to assess observational learning in horses is that they very often ignore status. In common with people horses learn best from those they trust and respect - so choice of a higher status group member as the 'demonstrator' is likely to be more effective than if a lower status or unknown horse is used. Equally they seem to learn those things that have most 'equine-appeal' far better than manipulative tasks, that would perhaps be more appropriate to a manipulative species, such as a primate, or a Parrot, or a Rat - all of which manipulate items as a common element of their daily behaviour. For horses you achieve a far better result if the task is one more appropriate to their nature, perhaps to do with fast all-body movement. Take horses from an established social group - run the higher status member into a large round pen, with the rest of the group watching - put high status member through a set of simple tasks involving moving in either direction, and at differing speeds. Remove the first and then bring in the next two in the status order, who will grasp what is required far more rapidly, having watched the first with a great deal of interest - now remove those two and bring in another 3 or 4 - and by this stage very little is required in order to get the same results without the trial and error element present in first and second. So, are they 'great' observational learners - no, are they able to learn through observation - yes. Perhaps the degree to which they are able to learn by observation decreases with age, along with their curiosity, but in the foal social facilitation is essential in watching the mare and learning about grazing habits etc - so it seems highly unlikely that they are incapable - but not particularly proficient certainly. Regards Andy Beck www.equine-behavior.com -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Diehl [mailto:nkdiehl@pa.net] Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 12:01 p.m. To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? I have not seen a lot of scientific papers out there on observational learning in horses. Below is one that is often cited showing that horses didn't learn any faster how to open a bin for a food reward when allowed to observe a demonstrator. Oh, also weaving horses stop weaving when they have mirrors, so watching themselves weave doesn't seem to increase or cause to continue that behavior. But of course, no evidence yet to confirm horses can learn by observation doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I am also in the camp that believes cribbing is not learned by watching others but rather a manifestation of in-common environmental factors. ************************** Effects of observational learning on acquisition of an operant response in horses A. C. Lindberg*, A. Kelland and C. J. Nicol Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, Bristol, BS40 5DU, UK Accepted 8 June 1998. Available online 30 November 1998. Abstract The effect of observational learning on the acquisition of an operant response was examined in eighteen riding horses and ponies. The test horses were randomly divided into three groups of six and individually exposed to one of three treatments. An additional horse was trained as a demonstrator, to perform the operant response. The observer horses watched either the demonstrator performing the bin-opening response (Group D+B); the demonstrator standing passively (Group D); or the operant bin in the absence of the demonstrator (Group B). Observers had access to and were free to interact with an identical bin during testing. Observers in Groups D+B and D were socially familiar with the demonstrator. Each test horse was tested once a day for 10 days. An ANOVA revealed no significant differences between treatment groups in the number of responses or the time taken to reach the learning criterion. However, there were highly significant differences between breed types, with non-warmbloods performing more bouts of opening the bin and feeding (p=0.02), feeding from the bin sooner (p=0.01) and reaching the criterion for learning sooner than warmbloods (p=0.05). There was also a significant negative linear relationship between horses' ages and time spent investigating the bin, with younger horses performing more investigative behaviour (y=-3.08x+106.86; p=0.02). Author Keywords: Horse; Observational learning; Stereotyped behaviour; Operant behaviour; Breed influence; Age influence *Corresponding author. Tel.: +44-117-928-9473; fax: +44-117-928-9368; e-mail: a.c.lindberg@bristol.ac.uk ************************************* Nancy Nancy Kate Diehl, MS, VMD The Charles Farm email nkdiehl@pa.net in beautiful Perry County, PA ! -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@xtra.co.nz] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 5:35 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: FW: Cribbing: Can it be learned? Very surprised to read that horses do not have the capacity to 'learn by imitation' (I assume this means to imitate what they see other horses doing?) - having watched them do precisely that on a number of occasions. I guess there must be a logical explanation for the belief - could I ask what it is? Regards Andy Beck -----Original Message----- From: Jay R. Feierman [mailto:jfeierman@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 11:18 a.m. To: applied-ethology network Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? "Cribbing" is a product of horse domestication where a horse can not graze much of the day and instead is feed at fixed intervals. Horses have a innate predisposition to chew, which is a structurally defined, mood dependent, coordinated motor pattern. They therefore tend to chew on anything chewable from wooden barn and corral structures to nearby tree trunks. When horses are in a large pasture with lots of grass, they don't crib. Also, horses do not have the capacity to learn by imitation. That capability is restricted to only a few taxa, such as primates, some sea mammals and some birds. Therefore, horses can not learn to crib by watching their stall mate crib. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "joseph stookey" To: "applied-ethology network" Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > Hi Everyone, > > > > This year, as an assignment I had my students develop brochures on > > behaviour problems seen in captive or domestic animals. A sub part of the > > assignment was to critically review a brochure that was produced by > > another student. Several brochures were made on cribbing in horses and > > most of them mentioned the "fact" that there is no substantial evidence > > that cribbing is contagious or that horses that are stalled next to a > > cribber are more likely to develop the habit. One reviewer said, "I don't > > see why cribbing would be impossible to learn!" And she stated her obvious > > skepticism and remarked she would never take the chance and would not > > stall her horse next to a known cribber. > > > > I think the student raises an interesting point. Is there a definite > > answer to this question? Is it impossible for horses to learn how to crib > > from another horse or do we just not have any strong evidence that they > > do? > > > > Is there any recent evidence one way or the other on this topic? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Joe > > > > -- > > Joseph M. Stookey > > Professor of Applied Ethology > > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences > > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > > University of Saskatchewan > > 52 Campus Drive > > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > > Canada S7N 5B4 > > > > Tel 306-966-7154 > > Fax 306-966-7159 > > > > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:37:35 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hello Andy, Culture just means "that which is transmitted across (and within) generations by social, observational/imitation learning," usually just called "social learning." The problem with ungulates and culture is that the only thing which could be transmitted across generations by ungulates is behavior which has been modified in timing and orientation by learning. Ungulates lack the rich repertoire of functionally defined behaviors which are seen in all primates (including humans) and which allow for cultural transmission of a local behavior which is not species-typical. I used to live on the Navajo Indian reservation in Fort Defiance, Arizona in the early 1970s. In those days there was a band of wild horses who used to roam through the town. One of the horses in the band learned how to open the gates that were on all of the houses. There was green grass inside the gates on the lawns, at least in the summer time. They were government houses with standard gates. The latch on the gate was the type that if one pushed it up, the gate opened. However, only one horse out of the band of about 8 horses knew how to do this. The behavior to open the latch was just the typical nuzzling behavior that horses to do one another, which is an upward motion of the head. The only thing different was that there was no "releasing stimulus" of something to be nuzzled, other than a metal gate. I knew which horse could open the gate. I would watch a group of horses go to the gate and wait for the one horse to open it. They obviously did not learn how to do this by observing him. I watched this behavior for almost two years and still only one horse knew how to open gates. The people in the town used to put locks on the gate so that this one horse would not open them. He would go from house to house "checking" the gates to see if anyone forgot to lock it. Maybe once a week he got lucky and one would then see 8 or so wild horses in someone's yard eating the lawn grass. There were about 30 such gated houses in the town. There are always problems of reintroducing captive animals to the wild. However, the problem is not a "culture of dependence." For there to be a culture of dependence then dependence would have to be transmitted across generations by social learning. There is not. They all just learn individually to be dependent on humans to provision them. There are certain wild animals who loose their fear of humans because of their long association with humans. Good examples are park pigeons and park squirrels. I don't know the mechanism of their tameness. It could be that after hundreds or thousands of generations there is no longer any selection pressure on them being wary of humans. It is also possible that for example a juvenile squirrel sees his or her mother coming close to a human and simply follows her. Upon finding no harm from the human, who is probably feeding it peanuts, the juvenile continues this behavior to get peanuts. This is not imitation learning. It is simply following behavior of a juvenile following his or her mother. That which can be manipulated is only one aspect of what potentially could be transmitted across (or within) generations by social learning. There are other opportunities for non-manipulating species, such as ungulates, to learn to modify the timing and orientation of their behavior by just observing. They don't do this. In contrast, primates are very good at this. I once had a 1:1 interaction with a male bonobo. I had a ball point pen in my shirt pocket. When I was sure he was watching me, I took it out and unscrewed it, put it back together, and put it back in my pocket. I then walked over closer to the male bonobo so that he could reach my pocket. He picked out the ball point pen from my pocket and immediately did just what I did and unscrewed it! He also gave me back the two pieces when he realized that they were not anything to eat when I held my hand out. He was a Zoo bonobo but I was allowed to interact with him in an area behind the public exhibit as I was with someone who was doing observational research on Zoo bonobos. Regards, Jay R Feierman Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology group, http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Andy Beck Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:53:37 +1300 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Umm - I think trust and respect are reasonable terms, and not so very difficult to understand when used in discussion. If scientific definitions are a requirement then I apologise for having strayed into an area better left to scientists only - and those with more time than I currently have. Quite happy to agree to differ and return to watching only. Regards Andy Beck -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Diehl [mailto:nkdiehl@pa.net] Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 1:11 p.m. To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? Andy and All, Andy, could you please define for me the scientific meaning of an individual one horse would "trust and respect" ? I guess I don't understand what that means. I guess a subordinate member of a group would "respect" a more dominant horse, particularly with regards to access to limiting resources, but does that equate to "trust"? How does one accurately define a human emotional state such as respect or trust in the context of an animal's behavior? Also, I would have to suggest that horses, though without opposable thumbs, are quite good at manipulation, both with limbs and nose. In addition, horses are highly motivated by food so if they were to learn a task, I think one with a food reward would be the thing to do. Of course, some believe that stereotypies are rewarding. Oh, one more thing I'd like to add. I have not really studied this area - that's my caveat - but I don't think social facilitation is equivalent to observational learning. My understanding is that the presence of other individuals may increase the likelihood of a behavior occurring is social facilitation. Presence doesn't necessarily mean demonstrator. Thanks, Nancy Nancy Kate Diehl, MS, VMD The Charles Farm email nkdiehl@pa.net in beautiful Perry County, PA ! -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@xtra.co.nz] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 6:43 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? I think one of the problems with tests to assess observational learning in horses is that they very often ignore status. In common with people horses learn best from those they trust and respect - so choice of a higher status group member as the 'demonstrator' is likely to be more effective than if a lower status or unknown horse is used. Equally they seem to learn those things that have most 'equine-appeal' far better than manipulative tasks, that would perhaps be more appropriate to a manipulative species, such as a primate, or a Parrot, or a Rat - all of which manipulate items as a common element of their daily behaviour. For horses you achieve a far better result if the task is one more appropriate to their nature, perhaps to do with fast all-body movement. Take horses from an established social group - run the higher status member into a large round pen, with the rest of the group watching - put high status member through a set of simple tasks involving moving in either direction, and at differing speeds. Remove the first and then bring in the next two in the status order, who will grasp what is required far more rapidly, having watched the first with a great deal of interest - now remove those two and bring in another 3 or 4 - and by this stage very little is required in order to get the same results without the trial and error element present in first and second. So, are they 'great' observational learners - no, are they able to learn through observation - yes. Perhaps the degree to which they are able to learn by observation decreases with age, along with their curiosity, but in the foal social facilitation is essential in watching the mare and learning about grazing habits etc - so it seems highly unlikely that they are incapable - but not particularly proficient certainly. Regards Andy Beck www.equine-behavior.com -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Diehl [mailto:nkdiehl@pa.net] Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 12:01 p.m. To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? I have not seen a lot of scientific papers out there on observational learning in horses. Below is one that is often cited showing that horses didn't learn any faster how to open a bin for a food reward when allowed to observe a demonstrator. Oh, also weaving horses stop weaving when they have mirrors, so watching themselves weave doesn't seem to increase or cause to continue that behavior. But of course, no evidence yet to confirm horses can learn by observation doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I am also in the camp that believes cribbing is not learned by watching others but rather a manifestation of in-common environmental factors. ************************** Effects of observational learning on acquisition of an operant response in horses A. C. Lindberg*, A. Kelland and C. J. Nicol Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, Bristol, BS40 5DU, UK Accepted 8 June 1998. Available online 30 November 1998. Abstract The effect of observational learning on the acquisition of an operant response was examined in eighteen riding horses and ponies. The test horses were randomly divided into three groups of six and individually exposed to one of three treatments. An additional horse was trained as a demonstrator, to perform the operant response. The observer horses watched either the demonstrator performing the bin-opening response (Group D+B); the demonstrator standing passively (Group D); or the operant bin in the absence of the demonstrator (Group B). Observers had access to and were free to interact with an identical bin during testing. Observers in Groups D+B and D were socially familiar with the demonstrator. Each test horse was tested once a day for 10 days. An ANOVA revealed no significant differences between treatment groups in the number of responses or the time taken to reach the learning criterion. However, there were highly significant differences between breed types, with non-warmbloods performing more bouts of opening the bin and feeding (p=0.02), feeding from the bin sooner (p=0.01) and reaching the criterion for learning sooner than warmbloods (p=0.05). There was also a significant negative linear relationship between horses' ages and time spent investigating the bin, with younger horses performing more investigative behaviour (y=-3.08x+106.86; p=0.02). Author Keywords: Horse; Observational learning; Stereotyped behaviour; Operant behaviour; Breed influence; Age influence *Corresponding author. Tel.: +44-117-928-9473; fax: +44-117-928-9368; e-mail: a.c.lindberg@bristol.ac.uk ************************************* Nancy Nancy Kate Diehl, MS, VMD The Charles Farm email nkdiehl@pa.net in beautiful Perry County, PA ! -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@xtra.co.nz] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 5:35 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: FW: Cribbing: Can it be learned? Very surprised to read that horses do not have the capacity to 'learn by imitation' (I assume this means to imitate what they see other horses doing?) - having watched them do precisely that on a number of occasions. I guess there must be a logical explanation for the belief - could I ask what it is? Regards Andy Beck -----Original Message----- From: Jay R. Feierman [mailto:jfeierman@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 11:18 a.m. To: applied-ethology network Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? "Cribbing" is a product of horse domestication where a horse can not graze much of the day and instead is feed at fixed intervals. Horses have a innate predisposition to chew, which is a structurally defined, mood dependent, coordinated motor pattern. They therefore tend to chew on anything chewable from wooden barn and corral structures to nearby tree trunks. When horses are in a large pasture with lots of grass, they don't crib. Also, horses do not have the capacity to learn by imitation. That capability is restricted to only a few taxa, such as primates, some sea mammals and some birds. Therefore, horses can not learn to crib by watching their stall mate crib. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "joseph stookey" To: "applied-ethology network" Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > Hi Everyone, > > > > This year, as an assignment I had my students develop brochures on > > behaviour problems seen in captive or domestic animals. A sub part of the > > assignment was to critically review a brochure that was produced by > > another student. Several brochures were made on cribbing in horses and > > most of them mentioned the "fact" that there is no substantial evidence > > that cribbing is contagious or that horses that are stalled next to a > > cribber are more likely to develop the habit. One reviewer said, "I don't > > see why cribbing would be impossible to learn!" And she stated her obvious > > skepticism and remarked she would never take the chance and would not > > stall her horse next to a known cribber. > > > > I think the student raises an interesting point. Is there a definite > > answer to this question? Is it impossible for horses to learn how to crib > > from another horse or do we just not have any strong evidence that they > > do? > > > > Is there any recent evidence one way or the other on this topic? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Joe > > > > -- > > Joseph M. Stookey > > Professor of Applied Ethology > > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences > > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > > University of Saskatchewan > > 52 Campus Drive > > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > > Canada S7N 5B4 > > > > Tel 306-966-7154 > > Fax 306-966-7159 > > > > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Sabine Goubau Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:05:07 -0700 To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hello Jay, Just out of curiosity. Did you hear about the sheep in Scotland who learned to roll over Texas gates? Where would that fit in your description of behaviors? I have no details of the story, it just made the news. Sabine Jay R. Feierman wrote: > Hello Andy, > > Culture just means "that which is transmitted across (and within) generations by social, observational/imitation learning," usually just called "social learning." The problem with ungulates and culture is that the only thing which could be transmitted across generations by ungulates is behavior which has been modified in timing and orientation by learning. Ungulates lack the rich repertoire of functionally defined behaviors which are seen in all primates (including humans) and which allow for cultural transmission of a local behavior which is not species-typical. > > I used to live on the Navajo Indian reservation in Fort Defiance, Arizona in the early 1970s. In those days there was a band of wild horses who used to roam through the town. One of the horses in the band learned how to open the gates that were on all of the houses. There was green grass inside the gates on the lawns, at least in the summer time. They were government houses with standard gates. The latch on the gate was the type that if one pushed it up, the gate opened. However, only one horse out of the band of about 8 horses knew how to do this. The behavior to open the latch was just the typical nuzzling behavior that horses to do one another, which is an upward motion of the head. The only thing different was that there was no "releasing stimulus" of something to be nuzzled, other than a metal gate. I knew which horse could open the gate. I would watch a group of horses go to the gate and wait for the one horse to open it. They obviously did not learn how to do this by observing him. I watched this behavior for almost two years and still only one horse knew how to open gates. The people in the town used to put locks on the gate so that this one horse would not open them. He would go from house to house "checking" the gates to see if anyone forgot to lock it. Maybe once a week he got lucky and one would then see 8 or so wild horses in someone's yard eating the lawn grass. There were about 30 such gated houses in the town. > > There are always problems of reintroducing captive animals to the wild. However, the problem is not a "culture of dependence." For there to be a culture of dependence then dependence would have to be transmitted across generations by social learning. There is not. They all just learn individually to be dependent on humans to provision them. > > There are certain wild animals who loose their fear of humans because of their long association with humans. Good examples are park pigeons and park squirrels. I don't know the mechanism of their tameness. It could be that after hundreds or thousands of generations there is no longer any selection pressure on them being wary of humans. It is also possible that for example a juvenile squirrel sees his or her mother coming close to a human and simply follows her. Upon finding no harm from the human, who is probably feeding it peanuts, the juvenile continues this behavior to get peanuts. This is not imitation learning. It is simply following behavior of a juvenile following his or her mother. > > That which can be manipulated is only one aspect of what potentially could be transmitted across (or within) generations by social learning. There are other opportunities for non-manipulating species, such as ungulates, to learn to modify the timing and orientation of their behavior by just observing. They don't do this. > > In contrast, primates are very good at this. I once had a 1:1 interaction with a male bonobo. I had a ball point pen in my shirt pocket. When I was sure he was watching me, I took it out and unscrewed it, put it back together, and put it back in my pocket. I then walked over closer to the male bonobo so that he could reach my pocket. He picked out the ball point pen from my pocket and immediately did just what I did and unscrewed it! He also gave me back the two pieces when he realized that they were not anything to eat when I held my hand out. He was a Zoo bonobo but I was allowed to interact with him in an area behind the public exhibit as I was with someone who was doing observational research on Zoo bonobos. > > Regards, > > Jay R Feierman > Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology group, http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:43:38 -0700 To: Sabine Goubau CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hello Sabine, I had not heard that. However, that could just be accidental association learning, like the horse who learned how to open a particular latch on a gate. I would bet that other sheep didn't do the same thing as the result of just watching the one sheep who did this. Again, I know of no evidence that any ungulate can learn by observation. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Sabine Goubau To: Jay R. Feierman Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 6:05 PM Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? Hello Jay, Just out of curiosity. Did you hear about the sheep in Scotland who learned to roll over Texas gates? Where would that fit in your description of behaviors? I have no details of the story, it just made the news. Sabine Jay R. Feierman wrote: > Hello Andy, > > Culture just means "that which is transmitted across (and within) generations by social, observational/imitation learning," usually just called "social learning." The problem with ungulates and culture is that the only thing which could be transmitted across generations by ungulates is behavior which has been modified in timing and orientation by learning. Ungulates lack the rich repertoire of functionally defined behaviors which are seen in all primates (including humans) and which allow for cultural transmission of a local behavior which is not species-typical. > > I used to live on the Navajo Indian reservation in Fort Defiance, Arizona in the early 1970s. In those days there was a band of wild horses who used to roam through the town. One of the horses in the band learned how to open the gates that were on all of the houses. There was green grass inside the gates on the lawns, at least in the summer time. They were government houses with standard gates. The latch on the gate was the type that if one pushed it up, the gate opened. However, only one horse out of the band of about 8 horses knew how to do this. The behavior to open the latch was just the typical nuzzling behavior that horses to do one another, which is an upward motion of the head. The only thing different was that there was no "releasing stimulus" of something to be nuzzled, other than a metal gate. I knew which horse could open the gate. I would watch a group of horses go to the gate and wait for the one horse to open it. They obviously did not learn how to do this by observing him. I watched this behavior for almost two years and still only one horse knew how to open gates. The people in the town used to put locks on the gate so that this one horse would not open them. He would go from house to house "checking" the gates to see if anyone forgot to lock it. Maybe once a week he got lucky and one would then see 8 or so wild horses in someone's yard eating the lawn grass. There were about 30 such gated houses in the town. > > There are always problems of reintroducing captive animals to the wild. However, the problem is not a "culture of dependence." For there to be a culture of dependence then dependence would have to be transmitted across generations by social learning. There is not. They all just learn individually to be dependent on humans to provision them. > > There are certain wild animals who loose their fear of humans because of their long association with humans. Good examples are park pigeons and park squirrels. I don't know the mechanism of their tameness. It could be that after hundreds or thousands of generations there is no longer any selection pressure on them being wary of humans. It is also possible that for example a juvenile squirrel sees his or her mother coming close to a human and simply follows her. Upon finding no harm from the human, who is probably feeding it peanuts, the juvenile continues this behavior to get peanuts. This is not imitation learning. It is simply following behavior of a juvenile following his or her mother. > > That which can be manipulated is only one aspect of what potentially could be transmitted across (or within) generations by social learning. There are other opportunities for non-manipulating species, such as ungulates, to learn to modify the timing and orientation of their behavior by just observing. They don't do this. > > In contrast, primates are very good at this. I once had a 1:1 interaction with a male bonobo. I had a ball point pen in my shirt pocket. When I was sure he was watching me, I took it out and unscrewed it, put it back together, and put it back in my pocket. I then walked over closer to the male bonobo so that he could reach my pocket. He picked out the ball point pen from my pocket and immediately did just what I did and unscrewed it! He also gave me back the two pieces when he realized that they were not anything to eat when I held my hand out. He was a Zoo bonobo but I was allowed to interact with him in an area behind the public exhibit as I was with someone who was doing observational research on Zoo bonobos. > > Regards, > > Jay R Feierman > Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology group, http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Tricia Breen Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:54:10 -0800 To: 'applied-ethology network' <<<>>> This is where the shortcomings of the academic world are evident. Canids are just one example of a species that learns through imitation. I suspect there are others, but just asking the real folk who observe animals every day doesn't seem to have value. Tricia Subject: Observational or Imitation Learning in Canids From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:08:05 -0700 To: 'applied-ethology network' Tricia, What is the evidence that Canids can learn by observation or imitation, which is sometimes called "social learning"? If you have evidence, I would very much like to know it. Besides humans, I know the behavior of the dog the best. I have never seen any evidence that any dog has been able to learn anything by observation or imitation. I've been observing dog behavior for the past 60 years. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tricia Breen" To: "'applied-ethology network'" Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 7:54 PM Subject: RE: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > > <<< not have the capacity to learn by imitation. That capability is restricted > to only a few taxa, such as primates, some sea mammals and some birds. > Therefore, horses can not learn to crib by watching their stall mate > crib.>>>> > > > This is where the shortcomings of the academic world are evident. Canids are > just one example of a species that learns through imitation. I suspect there > are others, but just asking the real folk who observe animals every day > doesn't seem to have value. > > Tricia > > > > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Sabine Goubau Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:21:57 -0700 To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Jay, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3938591.stm I found the news link. There is little information, but it looks real. I am very curious to know what might be going on there. Sabine Jay R. Feierman wrote: > Hello Sabine, > > I had not heard that. However, that could just be accidental association learning, like the horse who learned how to open a particular latch on a gate. I would bet that other sheep didn't do the same thing as the result of just watching the one sheep who did this. Again, I know of no evidence that any ungulate can learn by observation. > > Regards, > Jay R. Feierman > Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sabine Goubau > To: Jay R. Feierman > Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 6:05 PM > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > Hello Jay, > > Just out of curiosity. Did you hear about the sheep in Scotland who learned to roll over Texas gates? Where would that fit in your description of behaviors? I have no details of the story, it just made the news. > > Sabine > > Jay R. Feierman wrote: >> Hello Andy, >> >> Culture just means "that which is transmitted across (and within) generations by social, observational/imitation learning," usually just called "social learning." The problem with ungulates and culture is that the only thing which could be transmitted across generations by ungulates is behavior which has been modified in timing and orientation by learning. Ungulates lack the rich repertoire of functionally defined behaviors which are seen in all primates (including humans) and which allow for cultural transmission of a local behavior which is not species-typical. >> >> I used to live on the Navajo Indian reservation in Fort Defiance, Arizona in the early 1970s. In those days there was a band of wild horses who used to roam through the town. One of the horses in the band learned how to open the gates that were on all of the houses. There was green grass inside the gates on the lawns, at least in the summer time. They were government houses with standard gates. The latch on the gate was the type that if one pushed it up, the gate opened. However, only one horse out of the band of about 8 horses knew how to do this. The behavior to open the latch was just the typical nuzzling behavior that horses to do one another, which is an upward motion of the head. The only thing different was that there was no "releasing stimulus" of something to be nuzzled, other than a metal gate. I knew which horse could open the gate. I would watch a group of horses go to the gate and wait for the one horse to open it. They obviously did not learn how to do this by observing him. I watched this behavior for almost two years and still only one horse knew how to open gates. The people in the town used to put locks on the gate so that this one horse would not open them. He would go from house to house "checking" the gates to see if anyone forgot to lock it. Maybe once a week he got lucky and one would then see 8 or so wild horses in someone's yard eating the lawn grass. There were about 30 such gated houses in the town. >> >> There are always problems of reintroducing captive animals to the wild. However, the problem is not a "culture of dependence." For there to be a culture of dependence then dependence would have to be transmitted across generations by social learning. There is not. They all just learn individually to be dependent on humans to provision them. >> >> There are certain wild animals who loose their fear of humans because of their long association with humans. Good examples are park pigeons and park squirrels. I don't know the mechanism of their tameness. It could be that after hundreds or thousands of generations there is no longer any selection pressure on them being wary of humans. It is also possible that for example a juvenile squirrel sees his or her mother coming close to a human and simply follows her. Upon finding no harm from the human, who is probably feeding it peanuts, the juvenile continues this behavior to get peanuts. This is not imitation learning. It is simply following behavior of a juvenile following his or her mother. >> >> That which can be manipulated is only one aspect of what potentially could be transmitted across (or within) generations by social learning. There are other opportunities for non-manipulating species, such as ungulates, to learn to modify the timing and orientation of their behavior by just observing. They don't do this. >> >> In contrast, primates are very good at this. I once had a 1:1 interaction with a male bonobo. I had a ball point pen in my shirt pocket. When I was sure he was watching me, I took it out and unscrewed it, put it back together, and put it back in my pocket. I then walked over closer to the male bonobo so that he could reach my pocket. He picked out the ball point pen from my pocket and immediately did just what I did and unscrewed it! He also gave me back the two pieces when he realized that they were not anything to eat when I held my hand out. He was a Zoo bonobo but I was allowed to interact with him in an area behind the public exhibit as I was with someone who was doing observational research on Zoo bonobos. >> >> Regards, >> >> Jay R Feierman >> Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology group, http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > Subject: Re: Observational or Imitation Learning in Canids From: Audrey Schwartz Rivers Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 00:09:25 -0600 To: applied-ethology network Jay wrote: > What is the evidence that Canids can learn by observation or imitation, which is sometimes called "social learning"? If you have evidence, I would very much like to know it. Besides humans, I know the behavior of the dog the best. I have never seen any evidence that any dog has been able to learn anything by observation or imitation. I've been observing dog behavior for the past 60 years. > > Regards, > Jay R. Feierman > Moderator > Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Jay -- The Dept. of Ethology at Eötvös Loránd University in Hungary have done consider published research on canine social learning, imitation/observational learning (interspecies as well as cospecifics) and human-canine cultural development. They also are sponsoring a Canine Science Forum this summer that I'm sure will offer many presentations in this area. Below is their URL as well as a listing of just a few of their publications, many available on-line. http://etologia.aitia.ai/main.php?folderID=945 And...from personal experience with my own dogs and my own research studies -- I can tell you that dogs do learn by observation and imitation, instances that were not associative or reinforced. Audrey Schwartz Rivers, MS The Department of Ethology, the Eötvös Loránd University, Research Examples: Range, F. Viranyi, Z, Huber, L. 2007. Selective Imitation in Domestic Dogs. Current Biology, Volume 17, Issue 10, Pages 868-872. Miklósi, Á., Soproni, K. 2006. A comparative analysis of the animals' understanding of the human pointing gesture. Animal Cognition, 9, 81-94. (pdf) Topál, J., Byrne, R.W., Miklósi, Á., Csányi, V. 2006. Reproducing human actions and action sequences: "Do as I Do!" in a dog. Animal Cognition, 9, 355-367. (pdf) Pongrácz, P. Miklósi, Á., Vida, V. Csányi, V. 2005. The pet dogs ability for learning from a human demonstrator in a detour task is independent from the breed and age. Applied Animal Behaviour Science 90:309-323 (pdf) Byrne, R.W., Barnard, P.J., Davidson, I., Janik, V.M., McGrew, M.C., Miklósi, Á., Wiessner, P. 2004. Understanding culture across species. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 8. 341-346.(pdf) 7.992 Miklósi, Á., Soproni, K. 2004. A comparative analysis of the animals' understanding of the human pointing gesture. Animal Cognition (pdf) 1.732 Miklósi, Á., Topál, J., Csányi, V. 2004. Comparative social cognition: What can dogs teach us? Animal Behaviour 67, 995-1004. (pdf) 2.092 Pongrácz, P., Miklósi, Á.,Timár-Geng K., Csányi V. 2004. Verbal attention getting as a key factors in social learning between dog (Canis familiaris) and human. Journal of Comparative Psychology, 118, 375-383.31. (pdf) 1.33 Kubinyi, E., Miklósi, Á., Topál, J., Csányi, V. 2003. Social anticipation in dogs: a new form of social influence. Animal Cognition, 6, 57-64. (pdf) 1.732 Kubinyi, E., Topal, J. Miklosi, A. and Csanyi, V. (2003) Dogs (Canis familiaris) learn from their owners via observation in a manipulation task. J.Compar. Psych. 117(2), 156-165 (pdf) 1.28 Pongrácz, P., Miklósi, A., Dóka, A., Csányi, V. 2003. Successful application of video-projected human images for signaling to dogs. Ethology, 109, 809-821. (pdf) Pongrácz, P., Miklósi, Á., Kubinyi, E., Topál, J., Csányi, V. 2003. Interaction between individual experience and social learning in dogs. Animal Behaviour, 65, 595-603. (pdf) 2.557 Pongrácz, P., Miklósi, Á., Timár-Geng, K., Csányi, V. 2003. Preference for copying unambiguous demonstrations in dogs. J of Comp. Psychol. 117, 337-343 (pdf) 1.28 Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Peter Kabai Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:41:09 +0100 To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca CC: applied-ethology network Dear Joe, My undergad students stepped into this problem during a survey. There are hints that sterotipic horses might have some influence on neighbours, but it is impossible to tell the mechanism on basis of an epidemiological study. I gave some possible explanations in the paper Nagy K, Schrott A, Kabai P. (2007) Possible influence of neighbours on stereotypic behaviour in horses. which can be downloaded from here: http://www.behav.org/kabai/abstracts/default.htm Best wishes, Peter Kabai On 25/01/2008, joseph stookey wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > > > This year, as an assignment I had my students develop brochures on > > behaviour problems seen in captive or domestic animals. A sub part of > > the assignment was to critically review a brochure that was produced by > > another student. Several brochures were made on cribbing in horses and > > most of them mentioned the "fact" that there is no substantial evidence > > that cribbing is contagious or that horses that are stalled next to a > > cribber are more likely to develop the habit. One reviewer said, "I > > don't see why cribbing would be impossible to learn!" And she stated her > > obvious skepticism and remarked she would never take the chance and > > would not stall her horse next to a known cribber. > > > > I think the student raises an interesting point. Is there a definite > > answer to this question? Is it impossible for horses to learn how to > > crib from another horse or do we just not have any strong evidence that > > they do? > > > > Is there any recent evidence one way or the other on this topic? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Joe > > > > -- > > Joseph M. Stookey > > Professor of Applied Ethology > > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences > > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > > University of Saskatchewan > > 52 Campus Drive > > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > > Canada S7N 5B4 > > > > Tel 306-966-7154 > > Fax 306-966-7159 > > > > -- Peter Kabai, PhD Associate Professor Dept Ecology, Szent Istvan University http://www.behav.org Subject: Imitation-Observation Learning in Dogs From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 07:49:07 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Audrey, In the abstract below, which I took from the publication list you provided, how can one rule out that the dog was not following a fresh olfactory cue rather than a visual cue? If the dog followed a fresh olfactory cue to the correct door, this would not be imitation learning. Or, why is this not simple delayed following behavior? Lastly, in this case the dog is acquiring a cue from humans as to which door to go through. Is there evidence that under natural conditions dogs learn behavior by observation from other dogs that is not just following olfactory cues or following behavior? Can you point out some specific references in the list regarding observational/imitation learning in dogs in a natural environment where the dog acquires a behavior from another dog by visual observation only and other variables have been controlled? I want to be convinced that dogs can learn by visual observation. One other problem is that the dog's world is primarily a world of olfaction and vision plays a much smaller role in the world of a dog compared to the world of a human. In the abstract below how can you rule out that the dog just touched the handle that had the fresh human scent on it? That could be controlled for by having the human have rubber gloves on when the human touched the handle. Regards, Jay R Feierman Moderator Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ I'll make the actual abstract larger to be easier to read. Subject: Re: Imitation-Observation Learning in Dogs From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 07:53:36 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I see that the clips from the PDF files did not come through on this posting. Sorry. Jay R. Feierman ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay R. Feierman To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 7:49 AM Subject: Imitation-Observation Learning in Dogs Audrey, In the abstract below, which I took from the publication list you provided, how can one rule out that the dog was not following a fresh olfactory cue rather than a visual cue? If the dog followed a fresh olfactory cue to the correct door, this would not be imitation learning. Or, why is this not simple delayed following behavior? Lastly, in this case the dog is acquiring a cue from humans as to which door to go through. Is there evidence that under natural conditions dogs learn behavior by observation from other dogs that is not just following olfactory cues or following behavior? Can you point out some specific references in the list regarding observational/imitation learning in dogs in a natural environment where the dog acquires a behavior from another dog by visual observation only and other variables have been controlled? I want to be convinced that dogs can learn by visual observation. One other problem is that the dog's world is primarily a world of olfaction and vision plays a much smaller role in the world of a dog compared to the world of a human. In the abstract below how can you rule out that the dog just touched the handle that had the fresh human scent on it? That could be controlled for by having the human have rubber gloves on when the human touched the handle. Regards, Jay R Feierman Moderator Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ I'll make the actual abstract larger to be easier to read. Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 08:01:04 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca That is very interesting. The question is whether they all learned it independently or if they learned it by observation? Once one sheep got to the other side, others would be motivated to follow. If this behavior is not widespread among sheep but just peculiar to sheep in a particular area, it would be evidence of a local cultural behavior. If sheep in other locations do not do this, it would be interesting to put a sheep from another location in with the sheep who do this and see if the behavior is acquired. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Sabine Goubau To: Jay R. Feierman Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 9:21 PM Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? Hi Jay, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3938591.stm I found the news link. There is little information, but it looks real. I am very curious to know what might be going on there. Sabine Jay R. Feierman wrote: > Hello Sabine, > > I had not heard that. However, that could just be accidental association learning, like the horse who learned how to open a particular latch on a gate. I would bet that other sheep didn't do the same thing as the result of just watching the one sheep who did this. Again, I know of no evidence that any ungulate can learn by observation. > > Regards, > Jay R. Feierman > Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sabine Goubau > To: Jay R. Feierman > Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 6:05 PM > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > Hello Jay, > > Just out of curiosity. Did you hear about the sheep in Scotland who learned to roll over Texas gates? Where would that fit in your description of behaviors? I have no details of the story, it just made the news. > > Sabine > > Jay R. Feierman wrote: >> Hello Andy, >> >> Culture just means "that which is transmitted across (and within) generations by social, observational/imitation learning," usually just called "social learning." The problem with ungulates and culture is that the only thing which could be transmitted across generations by ungulates is behavior which has been modified in timing and orientation by learning. Ungulates lack the rich repertoire of functionally defined behaviors which are seen in all primates (including humans) and which allow for cultural transmission of a local behavior which is not species-typical. >> >> I used to live on the Navajo Indian reservation in Fort Defiance, Arizona in the early 1970s. In those days there was a band of wild horses who used to roam through the town. One of the horses in the band learned how to open the gates that were on all of the houses. There was green grass inside the gates on the lawns, at least in the summer time. They were government houses with standard gates. The latch on the gate was the type that if one pushed it up, the gate opened. However, only one horse out of the band of about 8 horses knew how to do this. The behavior to open the latch was just the typical nuzzling behavior that horses to do one another, which is an upward motion of the head. The only thing different was that there was no "releasing stimulus" of something to be nuzzled, other than a metal gate. I knew which horse could open the gate. I would watch a group of horses go to the gate and wait for the one horse to open it. They obviously did not learn how to do this by observing him. I watched this behavior for almost two years and still only one horse knew how to open gates. The people in the town used to put locks on the gate so that this one horse would not open them. He would go from house to house "checking" the gates to see if anyone forgot to lock it. Maybe once a week he got lucky and one would then see 8 or so wild horses in someone's yard eating the lawn grass. There were about 30 such gated houses in the town. >> >> There are always problems of reintroducing captive animals to the wild. However, the problem is not a "culture of dependence." For there to be a culture of dependence then dependence would have to be transmitted across generations by social learning. There is not. They all just learn individually to be dependent on humans to provision them. >> >> There are certain wild animals who loose their fear of humans because of their long association with humans. Good examples are park pigeons and park squirrels. I don't know the mechanism of their tameness. It could be that after hundreds or thousands of generations there is no longer any selection pressure on them being wary of humans. It is also possible that for example a juvenile squirrel sees his or her mother coming close to a human and simply follows her. Upon finding no harm from the human, who is probably feeding it peanuts, the juvenile continues this behavior to get peanuts. This is not imitation learning. It is simply following behavior of a juvenile following his or her mother. >> >> That which can be manipulated is only one aspect of what potentially could be transmitted across (or within) generations by social learning. There are other opportunities for non-manipulating species, such as ungulates, to learn to modify the timing and orientation of their behavior by just observing. They don't do this. >> >> In contrast, primates are very good at this. I once had a 1:1 interaction with a male bonobo. I had a ball point pen in my shirt pocket. When I was sure he was watching me, I took it out and unscrewed it, put it back together, and put it back in my pocket. I then walked over closer to the male bonobo so that he could reach my pocket. He picked out the ball point pen from my pocket and immediately did just what I did and unscrewed it! He also gave me back the two pieces when he realized that they were not anything to eat when I held my hand out. He was a Zoo bonobo but I was allowed to interact with him in an area behind the public exhibit as I was with someone who was doing observational research on Zoo bonobos. >> >> Regards, >> >> Jay R Feierman >> Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology group, http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Kayce Cover Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:55:55 -0500 (EST) To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca At the University of Maryland, I taught one sheep not to run over me, and the rest immediately respected my space. Just from observing me and the original sheep. Horses learn by observation all the time, so do dogs. We incorporate it into training sessions. At Wood Green Animal Shelters, we are finding that the sheep are learning faster than the dogs and horses. We know because we assign groups tasks to teach and the sheep people are at odd ends first. Consistently. Surprised all of us. May be task related. Maybe due to Kendell's work and the "morphogenetic field" Rupert talks about! ;> Cows also learn by observation and I think they do have culture. So do elephants and they certainly learn things by observation - like, to take an internationally discussed problem, they get through 5-wire electric fences and raze crops. There is interesting video. The fact that we both observe animals a lot and you don't think that animals have culture and that they learn by imitation or observation, and I think it goes without saying that they do, makes me wonder if the way we interface with animals makes the difference. Feral children are reported to be very rigid in their behavior and do not easily accept language, social norms of humans, etc. We already know that the ability to learn, and to think, is all at least partially a learned skill. By the way, I cannot believe you gave a Bonobo a pen, you an observer and all. That could have been quite harmful. Was that condoned by the people who gave you access? Regards, Kayce Kayce Cover MSEd, BS An Sci, CABC IAABC Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com PO Box 8788, Norfolk, VA 23503-0788 001 757 588 5967 or 001 757 609 5066 > > That is very interesting. The question is whether they all learned it > > independently or if they learned it by observation? Once one sheep got > > to the other side, others would be motivated to follow. If this > > behavior is not widespread among sheep but just peculiar to sheep in a > > particular area, it would be evidence of a local cultural behavior. If > > sheep in other locations do not do this, it would be interesting to > > put a sheep from another location in with the sheep who do this and > > see if the behavior is acquired. > > > > Regards, > > Jay R. Feierman Subject: Re: Observational or Imitation Learning in Canids From: Mike Wood Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:11:19 +0200 To: 'applied-ethology network' Jay Two references that you may find useful: http://tinyurl.com/29s39w http://tinyurl.com/24l7b6 Best - Mike On 25 Jan 2008 at 20:08, Jay R. Feierman wrote: > > Tricia, > > > > What is the evidence that Canids can learn by observation or > > imitation, which is sometimes called "social learning"? If you have > > evidence, I would very much like to know it. Besides humans, I know > > the behavior of the dog the best. I have never seen any evidence that > > any dog has been able to learn anything by observation or imitation. > > I've been observing dog behavior for the past 60 years. > > > > Regards, > > Jay R. Feierman > > Moderator > > Yahoo Human Ethology Group > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:18:39 -0700 To: kc@synalia.com CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Kayce Cover: Cows also learn by observation and I think they do have culture. Jay R. Feierman: Can you give some examples of cows learning by observation. Are you referring to observing other cows or observing humans? Also, what is the evidence that cows have culture, which to me means that the information on how to execute a behavior is passed across generations by imitation learning. You have to exclude simple following behavior for which calves are well adapted to follow the adult cows. When one travels around the world to different humans cultures there are vast differences in lots of the behaviors which are culturally acquired. Having seen cows in pastures and barns in many different places I can't say that I've seen local differences in their behavior. What do you mean by a cow culture? Cayce Cover: Cannot believe you gave a Bonobo a pen, you an observer and all. That could have been quite harmful. Was that condoned by the people who gave you access? Jay R. Feierman: I did not "give the bonobo my pen." I initially took it out of my pocket to write and it didn't write, so I unscrewed it to see if the ink was out. However, I noticed that the bonobo was watching me when I did this. I then put it back in my pocket. The bonobo observed me. When I got closer to him, he quickly grabbed it out of my pocket, took it into his enclosure and unscrewed it in two pieces. Then, when I held my hand out, he gave me back the two pieces. I was interacting with him by being in close proximity to him through his pen where there were bars between us. However, the bars were spaced widely enough that he could easily put his hands through. Before he took the pen he had extended his hand through the bars to touch my hand, which I let him do, as I was told that he would not bite if he did by the person who studies them. It was a very interesting experience to hold hands with him. He was very gentle in terms of how he held my hand and it felt very much like holding a human's hand. To join the Yahoo Human Ethology Group, go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: Re: Observational or Imitation Learning in Canids From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:39:43 -0700 To: 'applied-ethology network' Mike, Thanks for the links. Why is the first abstract below not an example of association learning rather than observational learning? When the pups, who were their mothers through 3 months, "observed" their mothers locating and retrieving a sachet of odor-producing narcotics between ages 6 and 12 weeks of age, were they not also learning the odor of the narcotics? It would be a familiar smell to them. The abstract says, "without further reinforcement during the interim period." I'm not sure what type of reiforcement they refer to. However, if the pups were fed at some time after they smelled the narcotics odor, would they have not just learned to associate the narcotics smell with the food, even if the time between the odor and the food was not immediate, as it would be if one were training narcotic dogs? I would like to be convinced that dogs can learn by visual observation, so I'm raising the doubting questions. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ doi:10.1016/S0168-1591(96)01163-X Copyright © 1997 Published by Elsevier Science B.V. Observational learning of an acquired maternal behaviour pattern by working dog pups: an alternative training method? J. M. Slabberta and O. Anne E. Rasab, , a Mammal Research Institute, University of Pretoria, Pretoria 0002, Republic of South Africa b Abt. Ethologie, Zoologisches Institut, University of Bonn, Kirschallee 1, 53115, Bonn, Germany Available online 10 December 1997. Abstract German shepherd pups from untrained bitches and bitches trained in the location of narcotics were either separated from their mothers at 6 weeks (standard raised) or at 3 months of age (extended maternal care). Pups with extended maternal care which were allowed to observe their trained mothers locating and retrieving a sachet of odour-producing narcotic between the ages of 6 and 12 weeks performed the same task significantly better than non-exposed pups when tested at the age of 6 months, without further reinforcement during the interim period. This difference in performance was independent of the duration of maternal care or maternal origin of the pups and was attributed to differences in early experience acquired through observational learning. ____________ I'll post the second abstract below to which I'll comment upon. If the same ribbon was used, the cue may have been odor. If the ribbon was different, this would be evidence of imitation learning by visual observation from a dog to a dog. I presume that they controlled for this and did not use the same ribbon. I don't have access to anything but the abstract. Developmental Psychobiology Volume 10, Issue 3 , Pages 267 - 271 Published Online: 13 Oct 2004 Copyright © 1977 John Wiley & Sons, Inc. Abstract A split-litter technique was used to test observational learning in 4 litters of Miniature Dachshund puppies, 21, 28, 38, and 60 days old at the beginning of the experiment. In one side of a duplicate cage, one puppy of a litter, the demonstrator, learned to pull in a food cart on a runner by means of a ribbon, while another puppy, the observer, watched from an adjacent compartment, separated by a wire screen. Observational learning was demonstrated by the saving in time for the 1st trial when the observer was given the same problem to solve. Maturation, particularly the development of visual function and motor coordination, set a lower age limit for the emergence of observational learning. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Received: 5 March 1976; Revised: 25 June 1976 Digital Object Identifier (DOI) 10.1002/dev.420100310 About DOI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Wood" To: "'applied-ethology network'" Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 9:11 AM Subject: Re: Observational or Imitation Learning in Canids > Jay > > Two references that you may find useful: > > http://tinyurl.com/29s39w > > http://tinyurl.com/24l7b6 > > Best - Mike > > > > On 25 Jan 2008 at 20:08, Jay R. Feierman wrote: > >> Tricia, >> >> What is the evidence that Canids can learn by observation or >> imitation, which is sometimes called "social learning"? If you have >> evidence, I would very much like to know it. Besides humans, I know >> the behavior of the dog the best. I have never seen any evidence > that >> any dog has been able to learn anything by observation or > imitation. >> I've been observing dog behavior for the past 60 years. >> >> Regards, >> Jay R. Feierman >> Moderator >> Yahoo Human Ethology Group >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:44:56 -0700 To: cijohn Verizon CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hello Catherine, Have not read either Pryor's book or McGreevy's book. I am very skeptical about a cat learning by observation of a dog being trained. When you say that you think McGreevy says that horses don't learn by observation, what is the title of that book? Is McGreevy an expert on horse behavior? Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: cijohn Verizon To: Jay R. Feierman Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 9:31 AM Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? On 1/25/08 6:22 PM, "Jay R. Feierman" wrote: Would that not be association learning and operant (conditioning) learning, rather than learning by observation or imitation? Species which can learn by observation or imitation, sometimes called "social learning," are capable of developing culture. I'm not aware that there are horse cultures where one barn field of horses has behaviors which are widespread and different from the behaviors of other horses in other barns or fields. Hi Jay! You know....I’m just getting back into behaviorism after a fairly long stretch away. Oops — I’ve got 3 kids lobbying me --- will be back in a bit. Have you read Pryor’s Don’t Shoot the Dog? It’s amazing. Briliant. If you haven’t, I’ll find her cat story and post --- I’ll be interested to see what you think. In that story the cat does a pretty amazing feat of observational learning.....but the cat does this by watching the dog being trained. Btw, as I thought about McGreevy’s book, I’m fairly sure he says horses haven’t been seen to show observational learning....(haven’t dug the book out because I’m in the midst of a long writing project & I have book stacks everywhere). Catherine Johnson Subject: Observational or Imitation Learning in Canids - a new case of Clever Hans From: "Osthaus, Britta" Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:56:40 +0000 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca In my experience there is no proof that dogs can learn solely by observation/imitation. The results of the detour tasks for example are not conclusive and can be explained by stimulus or location enhancement. A colleague of mine at Exeter University studied intra-species imitation in dogs (and in some other mammal species) and found no evidence of it. Dogs are easily trained and very skilled observers of humans. In my opinion they can fool the inclined observer into believing that they show 'do-as-I-do' behaviour. A clear case of Clever Hans, as many people would love to believe in higher cognitive abilities in dogs than they actually possess. The research results are often confounded by the fact that the subjects are owned by the researcher, or at least very well known by them, and that the experimenter wants them to succeed. I do not doubt their social skills, but on the cognitive front they are not as skilled as some researchers would like us to believe. Britta **************************** Dr Britta Osthaus Psychology Christ Church University Canterbury CT1 1QU UK Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: Sabine Goubau Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:55:49 -0700 To: "Jay R. Feierman" CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Jay, It is unfortunate that nobody investigated this. Regardless of the outcome of the inverstigation, this would have been interesting. I notice that in this ongoing discussion the difference between you and Britta and maybe others is that you make a more precise discrimination between various types of behaviors that may all appear as imitation to the layman (me). I learned a fair amount from your questions and comments, this was interesting. Thank you. I am left with a nagging question: you mentioned that dogs will not use their sight as much as other species in which imitation in the stricter sense that you defined is evaluated. Then how do you think this type of imitation behavior should be assessed in dogs? What is the underlying common principle (something other than sight the use of sight only)? Sabine Jay R. Feierman wrote: > That is very interesting. The question is whether they all learned it independently or if they learned it by observation? Once one sheep got to the other side, others would be motivated to follow. If this behavior is not widespread among sheep but just peculiar to sheep in a particular area, it would be evidence of a local cultural behavior. If sheep in other locations do not do this, it would be interesting to put a sheep from another location in with the sheep who do this and see if the behavior is acquired. > > Regards, > Jay R. Feierman > Moderator > Yahoo Human Ethology Group > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sabine Goubau > To: Jay R. Feierman > Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 9:21 PM > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > Hi Jay, > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3938591.stm > I found the news link. There is little information, but it looks real. I am very curious to know what might be going on there. > > Sabine > > Jay R. Feierman wrote: >> Hello Sabine, >> >> I had not heard that. However, that could just be accidental association learning, like the horse who learned how to open a particular latch on a gate. I would bet that other sheep didn't do the same thing as the result of just watching the one sheep who did this. Again, I know of no evidence that any ungulate can learn by observation. >> >> Regards, >> Jay R. Feierman >> Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Sabine Goubau >> To: Jay R. Feierman >> Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 6:05 PM >> Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? >> >> Hello Jay, >> >> Just out of curiosity. Did you hear about the sheep in Scotland who learned to roll over Texas gates? Where would that fit in your description of behaviors? I have no details of the story, it just made the news. >> >> Sabine >> >> Jay R. Feierman wrote: >>> Hello Andy, >>> >>> Culture just means "that which is transmitted across (and within) generations by social, observational/imitation learning," usually just called "social learning." The problem with ungulates and culture is that the only thing which could be transmitted across generations by ungulates is behavior which has been modified in timing and orientation by learning. Ungulates lack the rich repertoire of functionally defined behaviors which are seen in all primates (including humans) and which allow for cultural transmission of a local behavior which is not species-typical. >>> >>> I used to live on the Navajo Indian reservation in Fort Defiance, Arizona in the early 1970s. In those days there was a band of wild horses who used to roam through the town. One of the horses in the band learned how to open the gates that were on all of the houses. There was green grass inside the gates on the lawns, at least in the summer time. They were government houses with standard gates. The latch on the gate was the type that if one pushed it up, the gate opened. However, only one horse out of the band of about 8 horses knew how to do this. The behavior to open the latch was just the typical nuzzling behavior that horses to do one another, which is an upward motion of the head. The only thing different was that there was no "releasing stimulus" of something to be nuzzled, other than a metal gate. I knew which horse could open the gate. I would watch a group of horses go to the gate and wait for the one horse to open it. They obviously did not learn how to do this by observing him. I watched this behavior for almost two years and still only one horse knew how to open gates. The people in the town used to put locks on the gate so that this one horse would not open them. He would go from house to house "checking" the gates to see if anyone forgot to lock it. Maybe once a week he got lucky and one would then see 8 or so wild horses in someone's yard eating the lawn grass. There were about 30 such gated houses in the town. >>> >>> There are always problems of reintroducing captive animals to the wild. However, the problem is not a "culture of dependence." For there to be a culture of dependence then dependence would have to be transmitted across generations by social learning. There is not. They all just learn individually to be dependent on humans to provision them. >>> >>> There are certain wild animals who loose their fear of humans because of their long association with humans. Good examples are park pigeons and park squirrels. I don't know the mechanism of their tameness. It could be that after hundreds or thousands of generations there is no longer any selection pressure on them being wary of humans. It is also possible that for example a juvenile squirrel sees his or her mother coming close to a human and simply follows her. Upon finding no harm from the human, who is probably feeding it peanuts, the juvenile continues this behavior to get peanuts. This is not imitation learning. It is simply following behavior of a juvenile following his or her mother. >>> >>> That which can be manipulated is only one aspect of what potentially could be transmitted across (or within) generations by social learning. There are other opportunities for non-manipulating species, such as ungulates, to learn to modify the timing and orientation of their behavior by just observing. They don't do this. >>> >>> In contrast, primates are very good at this. I once had a 1:1 interaction with a male bonobo. I had a ball point pen in my shirt pocket. When I was sure he was watching me, I took it out and unscrewed it, put it back together, and put it back in my pocket. I then walked over closer to the male bonobo so that he could reach my pocket. He picked out the ball point pen from my pocket and immediately did just what I did and unscrewed it! He also gave me back the two pieces when he realized that they were not anything to eat when I held my hand out. He was a Zoo bonobo but I was allowed to interact with him in an area behind the public exhibit as I was with someone who was doing observational research on Zoo bonobos. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jay R Feierman >>> Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology group, http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ >> Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 14:18:52 -0700 To: Sabine Goubau CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hello Sabine, A dog's world is a world of odors and smell, as smell is a much more important sense to a dog than it is to a human. When I take one of my dogs out at night for a walk, I notice that he constantly has his nose to the ground, as though he is constantly sniffing his way around our property. He is almost oblivious to the visual world at night. Typically, imitation learning means learning by visual observation. However, there is also imitation learning by auditory stimuli. I can speak Spanish in a conversational way but my vocabulary is poor and often my pronunciation is poor. When someone who is a native Spanish speaker talks to me in Spanish, they often repeat a word I just said in Spanish. When they do that, I then repeat the word back and smile to acknowledge their help in my learning pronunciation or sometimes grammar by imitation learning. I have noticed that when my grandchildren watch Animal Planet on TV that one of our dogs, who is on the bed with them, is totally oblivious to the various dogs that are on the screen. Occasionally, when one of the dogs on the TV barks, the dog will look up at the TV. I also noted that this same dog once reacted to the same way when in a movie, a young woman screamed. Yet, other than these sounds, the dog is oblivious to the visual aspects of what's on the TV. We also know that dogs are almost oblivious to their reflections in the mirror. The question is not if they recognize themselves, as the higher apes can do when looking in the mirror. They don't react to the dog image in the mirror at all, even if they were to perceive it as another dog. Yet, when I go to my daughter's house where she has two dogs, my dog gives me the 3rd degree in terms of a total smell evaluation when I return home from her house. Therefore, based on the above, it would seem quite difficult to get a dog to modify his behavior through learning by just observing a human. To rule out that there were not other cues involved, I would want the learning to occur just by a video with no sound of a human doing something. My sense is that the dog would totally ignore the video like a dog ignores the TV. Yet, I am aware that a dog can pick up body language and pointing cues from a human. I suspect it does that by association learning but I don't know the literature on this. I'm sure it's been studied by the Budapest dog group. If you are interested in the application of Ethology to human behavior, you could join the Human Ethology Yahoo group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/, which is sponsored by the International Society for Human Ethology http://www.ishe.org/ or see their upcoming '08 conference web page http://www.ishe08.org/ . By joining this group I'm trying to get more cross talk between the two groups, as each has something to offer the other. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator Yahoo Human Ethology Group ----- Original Message ----- From: Sabine Goubau To: Jay R. Feierman Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 1:55 PM Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? Hi Jay, It is unfortunate that nobody investigated this. Regardless of the outcome of the inverstigation, this would have been interesting. I notice that in this ongoing discussion the difference between you and Britta and maybe others is that you make a more precise discrimination between various types of behaviors that may all appear as imitation to the layman (me). I learned a fair amount from your questions and comments, this was interesting. Thank you. I am left with a nagging question: you mentioned that dogs will not use their sight as much as other species in which imitation in the stricter sense that you defined is evaluated. Then how do you think this type of imitation behavior should be assessed in dogs? What is the underlying common principle (something other than sight the use of sight only)? Sabine Jay R. Feierman wrote: > That is very interesting. The question is whether they all learned it independently or if they learned it by observation? Once one sheep got to the other side, others would be motivated to follow. If this behavior is not widespread among sheep but just peculiar to sheep in a particular area, it would be evidence of a local cultural behavior. If sheep in other locations do not do this, it would be interesting to put a sheep from another location in with the sheep who do this and see if the behavior is acquired. > > Regards, > Jay R. Feierman > Moderator > Yahoo Human Ethology Group > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sabine Goubau > To: Jay R. Feierman > Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 9:21 PM > Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? > > Hi Jay, > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3938591.stm > I found the news link. There is little information, but it looks real. I am very curious to know what might be going on there. > > Sabine > > Jay R. Feierman wrote: >> Hello Sabine, >> >> I had not heard that. However, that could just be accidental association learning, like the horse who learned how to open a particular latch on a gate. I would bet that other sheep didn't do the same thing as the result of just watching the one sheep who did this. Again, I know of no evidence that any ungulate can learn by observation. >> >> Regards, >> Jay R. Feierman >> Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Sabine Goubau >> To: Jay R. Feierman >> Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 6:05 PM >> Subject: Re: Cribbing: Can it be learned? >> >> Hello Jay, >> >> Just out of curiosity. Did you hear about the sheep in Scotland who learned to roll over Texas gates? Where would that fit in your description of behaviors? I have no details of the story, it just made the news. >> >> Sabine >> >> Jay R. Feierman wrote: >>> Hello Andy, >>> >>> Culture just means "that which is transmitted across (and within) generations by social, observational/imitation learning," usually just called "social learning." The problem with ungulates and culture is that the only thing which could be transmitted across generations by ungulates is behavior which has been modified in timing and orientation by learning. Ungulates lack the rich repertoire of functionally defined behaviors which are seen in all primates (including humans) and which allow for cultural transmission of a local behavior which is not species-typical. >>> >>> I used to live on the Navajo Indian reservation in Fort Defiance, Arizona in the early 1970s. In those days there was a band of wild horses who used to roam through the town. One of the horses in the band learned how to open the gates that were on all of the houses. There was green grass inside the gates on the lawns, at least in the summer time. They were government houses with standard gates. The latch on the gate was the type that if one pushed it up, the gate opened. However, only one horse out of the band of about 8 horses knew how to do this. The behavior to open the latch was just the typical nuzzling behavior that horses to do one another, which is an upward motion of the head. The only thing different was that there was no "releasing stimulus" of something to be nuzzled, other than a metal gate. I knew which horse could open the gate. I would watch a group of horses go to the gate and wait for the one horse to open it. They obviously did not learn how to do this by observing him. I watched this behavior for almost two years and still only one horse knew how to open gates. The people in the town used to put locks on the gate so that this one horse would not open them. He would go from house to house "checking" the gates to see if anyone forgot to lock it. Maybe once a week he got lucky and one would then see 8 or so wild horses in someone's yard eating the lawn grass. There were about 30 such gated houses in the town. >>> >>> There are always problems of reintroducing captive animals to the wild. However, the problem is not a "culture of dependence." For there to be a culture of dependence then dependence would have to be transmitted across generations by social learning. There is not. They all just learn individually to be dependent on humans to provision them. >>> >>> There are certain wild animals who loose their fear of humans because of their long association with humans. Good examples are park pigeons and park squirrels. I don't know the mechanism of their tameness. It could be that after hundreds or thousands of generations there is no longer any selection pressure on them being wary of humans. It is also possible that for example a juvenile squirrel sees his or her mother coming close to a human and simply follows her. Upon finding no harm from the human, who is probably feeding it peanuts, the juvenile continues this behavior to get peanuts. This is not imitation learning. It is simply following behavior of a juvenile following his or her mother. >>> >>> That which can be manipulated is only one aspect of what potentially could be transmitted across (or within) generations by social learning. There are other opportunities for non-manipulating species, such as ungulates, to learn to modify the timing and orientation of their behavior by just observing. They don't do this. >>> >>> In contrast, primates are very good at this. I once had a 1:1 interaction with a male bonobo. I had a ball point pen in my shirt pocket. When I was sure he was watching me, I took it out and unscrewed it, put it back together, and put it back in my pocket. I then walked over closer to the male bonobo so that he could reach my pocket. He picked out the ball point pen from my pocket and immediately did just what I did and unscrewed it! He also gave me back the two pieces when he realized that they were not anything to eat when I held my hand out. He was a Zoo bonobo but I was allowed to interact with him in an area behind the public exhibit as I was with someone who was doing observational research on Zoo bonobos. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jay R Feierman >>> Moderator, Yahoo Human Ethology group, http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ Subject: observational learning From: Andy Beck Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:40:56 +1300 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Have been watching with interest – particularly as I’m often in the position of defending science, and I think these exchanges shed some light on why a lot of lay-people sometimes find academic scientists (those that teach rather than qualified scientists working out in the community) difficult. Ask for supporting evidence of why these animals are unable to learn by observation and you seem to just get the stance repeated in a slightly different fashion – rather than reasons why such animals would be unable to do so by virtue of a difference in the structure of the brain or something like that. Or you get those cute little bits of rhetoric, such as the pretence that unless something is given a scientific definition it can’t be understood. After a while you have to wonder to what extent this actually differs from the personal myth of the non-scientist? Perhaps when you’ve been teaching for some time and have repeatedly taken a particular stance it becomes difficult to make room for other possibilities. Surely in ethology, an inexact science at best, since we rely so much on observation, things are rarely so very clear cut that you can say that multiple species have zero capacity for a certain behaviour? Just because they do not utilise a capacity in the same degree as we do does not exclude their having a rudimentary ability. 20 years ago most people refused to accept that any species other than us had a culture – even a very basic one – that has now changed. Sure you can selectively redefine terms any number of times to exclude characteristics in other species – but at some stage that just becomes speciesism. If scientific consensus was so wrong that for years it was baldly stated that neurogenesis did not occur what other stances might also be wrong? It was only Liz Gould’s willingness to explore the conditions under which neurogenesis had not been found that allowed her to vary those conditions so that it could. Can the academic scientists that deny observational learning be absolutely certain they are not phrasing their questions in such a way as to ensure they will not see it? I think Kayce put forward a valid point, and that, given her specialist field, her opinion cannot easily be dismissed. Regards Andy Beck www.equine-behavior.com Subject: re: Observational Learning From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:16:11 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hello Andy, Your points are well taken. I am not questioning if observational learning occurs or doesn't occur in ungulates or canids based on any theoretical reason. I have just not seen any evidence for it either in my own observations, which are naturalistic and limited, or in my reading. In order to conclude for example that a dog can learn something by pure visual observation in which the behavior is not operantly rewarded during the learning period and where the presence of non-visual cues have been eliminated, one has to have a very carefully constructed experiment. One factor that has to be very carefully controlled for is olfaction and subtle auditory cues. A human can watch a video of someone doing something, such as unlocking a combination on a safe, and then copy the behavior that is on the video and open the safe. I do not believe it is possible for a dog to do anything like this. It would not be so difficult to set up such an experiment for a dog. Have a video screen in a place where it is easily visible to a dog. Have there be a problem that the dog needs to solve which can not be solved by the knowledge the dog currently has. Such a problem could be to get food, which is only released if one presses five levers in a certain sequence. Have the solution to the problem be on the video. For example, lets say that there are five levers to press and that each lever has a different geometrical design on it. Let's say that to get a reward, the dog has to press the levers in the order of 3,1,5. One can have a video of a dog, who was trained by a human to do this, pressing levers 3,1,5 in that order and getting a reward. I don't believe in a million years of watching such a video that the second dog would learn that sequence to get a food reward. That's the kind of evidence I would have to see to convince me that a dog can learn by pure visual observation. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator Human Ethology Yahoo Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Andy Beck To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 2:40 PM Subject: observational learning Have been watching with interest – particularly as I’m often in the position of defending science, and I think these exchanges shed some light on why a lot of lay-people sometimes find academic scientists (those that teach rather than qualified scientists working out in the community) difficult. Ask for supporting evidence of why these animals are unable to learn by observation and you seem to just get the stance repeated in a slightly different fashion – rather than reasons why such animals would be unable to do so by virtue of a difference in the structure of the brain or something like that. Or you get those cute little bits of rhetoric, such as the pretence that unless something is given a scientific definition it can’t be understood. After a while you have to wonder to what extent this actually differs from the personal myth of the non-scientist? Perhaps when you’ve been teaching for some time and have repeatedly taken a particular stance it becomes difficult to make room for other possibilities. Surely in ethology, an inexact science at best, since we rely so much on observation, things are rarely so very clear cut that you can say that multiple species have zero capacity for a certain behaviour? Just because they do not utilise a capacity in the same degree as we do does not exclude their having a rudimentary ability. 20 years ago most people refused to accept that any species other than us had a culture – even a very basic one – that has now changed. Sure you can selectively redefine terms any number of times to exclude characteristics in other species – but at some stage that just becomes speciesism. If scientific consensus was so wrong that for years it was baldly stated that neurogenesis did not occur what other stances might also be wrong? It was only Liz Gould’s willingness to explore the conditions under which neurogenesis had not been found that allowed her to vary those conditions so that it could. Can the academic scientists that deny observational learning be absolutely certain they are not phrasing their questions in such a way as to ensure they will not see it? I think Kayce put forward a valid point, and that, given her specialist field, her opinion cannot easily be dismissed. Regards Andy Beck www.equine-behavior.com Subject: re: observational learning From: Audrey Schwartz Rivers Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:58:50 -0600 To: applied-ethology network Jay wrote: > We also know that dogs are almost oblivious to their reflections in the mirror. The question is not if they recognize themselves, as the higher apes can do when looking in the mirror. They don't react to the dog image in the mirror at all, even if they were to perceive it as another dog. Yet, when I go to my daughter's house where she has two dogs, my dog gives me the 3rd degree in terms of a total smell evaluation when I return home from her house. > > > Therefore, based on the above, it would seem quite difficult to get a dog to modify his behavior through learning by just observing a human. To rule out that there were not other cues involved, Jay, I have written a paper about dog-human communication and am writing another based on a qualitative research study of original canine-human communication. The articles offer several points related to the difference uses of smell when interacting with humans versus dogs. In addition, several of the articles cited state that dogs do modify communicative behavior when interacting with humans than they do with dogs. These paper should be out in the APDT "Chronicle of the Dog" this summer and fall. When published, I could send you a copy. Audrey Schwartz Rivers, MS Subject: RE: Observational Learning From: Tricia Breen Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:51:34 -0800 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca <<<>>>> If a human who has lost their eyesight listens to a safe being opened and then successfully imitates the sequence to open the safe, is that observational learning? Or is the scent used to imitate the task the primary defining criteria, i.e. sight? Tricia Subject: Re: Observational Learning From: "Jay R. Feierman" Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 07:08:55 -0700 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hello Tricia, I believe that "observational" learning implies learning by observing visually. The term "imitation" learning can also include learning by auditory hearing, as when a child learns a language by hearing it. The term "social" learning is broader and covers both that which is learned by seeing and that which is learned by hearing. There may also be tactile learning, as when a blind person learns to do something by putting their hands on someone else's hands as it is done and then copies the hand movements. With olfaction I can't see how one can learn by any type of imitation. Rather, smell learning is usually association learning as when an animal gets to associate a smell with a certain reward. Social learning, at least in humans, can also be passive as well as active. In active social learning someone is teaching. In the passive type of social learning, one just learns by imitation but the person being imitated is not actively teaching. A requirement for culture or cultural transmission is that the species has to have some type of capability for imitation/social learning so that what is learned can be transmitted across generations outside of DNA. There are documented examples of such transmission of information across generations by imitation/social learning in a number of primates, some sea mammals and some birds in their natural habitats. At the International Ethological Conference in Halifax in June there was a Plenary address by Hal Whitehead on whale sounds that were pod specific and which were transmitted across generations by imitation/social learning. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Tricia Breen To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 7:51 PM Subject: RE: Observational Learning <<<>>>> If a human who has lost their eyesight listens to a safe being opened and then successfully imitates the sequence to open the safe, is that observational learning? Or is the scent used to imitate the task the primary defining criteria, i.e. sight? Tricia Subject: RE: Observational Learning From: Tricia Breen Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 06:52:50 -0800 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca So it seems that these words have been used somewhat interchangeably in this discussion, which can lead to misinterpretation. Or perhaps it morphed from social learning to observational learning, two different animals (or one being a subset of the other). Tricia (and pardon my misspelling of sense in the earlier post) From: Jay R. Feierman [mailto:jfeierman@comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 6:09 AM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: Re: Observational Learning Hello Tricia, I believe that "observational" learning implies learning by observing visually. The term "imitation" learning can also include learning by auditory hearing, as when a child learns a language by hearing it. The term "social" learning is broader and covers both that which is learned by seeing and that which is learned by hearing. There may also be tactile learning, as when a blind person learns to do something by putting their hands on someone else's hands as it is done and then copies the hand movements. With olfaction I can't see how one can learn by any type of imitation. Rather, smell learning is usually association learning as when an animal gets to associate a smell with a certain reward. Social learning, at least in humans, can also be passive as well as active. In active social learning someone is teaching. In the passive type of social learning, one just learns by imitation but the person being imitated is not actively teaching. A requirement for culture or cultural transmission is that the species has to have some type of capability for imitation/social learning so that what is learned can be transmitted across generations outside of DNA. There are documented examples of such transmission of information across generations by imitation/social learning in a number of primates, some sea mammals and some birds in their natural habitats. At the International Ethological Conference in Halifax in June there was a Plenary address by Hal Whitehead on whale sounds that were pod specific and which were transmitted across generations by imitation/social learning. Regards, Jay R. Feierman Moderator Yahoo Human Ethology Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Tricia Breen To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 7:51 PM Subject: RE: Observational Learning <<<>>>> If a human who has lost their eyesight listens to a safe being opened and then successfully imitates the sequence to open the safe, is that observational learning? Or is the scent used to imitate the task the primary defining criteria, i.e. sight? Tricia Subject: Re: Observational learning From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:35:52 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Where does many cases of learned behaviour originate from if not from observational learning? If we take the dam’s influence over her pups in the early stages of their development. Pups can learn that feelings of dependence fear or perceived weakness can be, at least temporarily, addressed by reacting aggressively by copying the behaviours of the dam. A pup, which has seen the dam consistently drive humans away with an aggressive display, is far more likely to adopt such behaviours than a pup that has had a highly sociable dam. Or the aggressive behaviours observed in young dogs as a result of a high level of reactivity to fear. Does the submissive pup not learn initially through watching a social superior, in most cases a more dominant pup, that aggression can successfully bring about relief from negative emotions? Regards Gordon Butcher Subject: Re: Observational learning From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:45:11 -0800 (PST) To: LyndhurstPark@aol.com, applied-ethology@usask.ca All I can tell you is that I can get in a coyote puppy that doesn't have it's eyes open and even tho it imprints on humans, it still has all of the coyote behaviors without having to learn them from another coyote. CeAnn LyndhurstPark@aol.com wrote: Where does many cases of learned behaviour originate from if not from observational learning? If we take the dam’s influence over her pups in the early stages of their development. Pups can learn that feelings of dependence fear or perceived weakness can be, at least temporarily, addressed by reacting aggressively by copying the behaviours of the dam. A pup, which has seen the dam consistently drive humans away with an aggressive display, is far more likely to adopt such behaviours than a pup that has had a highly sociable dam. Or the aggressive behaviours observed in young dogs as a result of a high level of reactivity to fear. Does the submissive pup not learn initially through watching a social superior, in most cases a more dominant pup, that aggression can successfully bring about relief from negative emotions? Regards Gordon Butcher CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Re: Observational learning From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:50:53 -0500 (EST) To: ceannicrc@yahoo.com, applied-ethology@usask.ca Coyotes are not domestic canines - their hardwiring is different. Regards Gordon In a message dated 27/01/2008 18:47:30 GMT Standard Time, ceannicrc@yahoo.com writes: All I can tell you is that I can get in a coyote puppy that doesn't have it's eyes open and even tho it imprints on humans, it still has all of the coyote behaviors without having to learn them from another coyote. CeAnn LyndhurstPark@aol.com wrote: Where does many cases of learned behaviour originate from if not from observational learning? If we take the dam’s influence over her pups in the early stages of their development. Pups can learn that feelings of dependence fear or perceived weakness can be, at least temporarily, addressed by reacting aggressively by copying the behaviours of the dam. A pup, which has seen the dam consistently drive humans away with an aggressive display, is far more likely to adopt such behaviours than a pup that has had a highly sociable dam. Or the aggressive behaviours observed in young dogs as a result of a high level of reactivity to fear. Does the submissive pup not learn initially through watching a social superior, in most cases a more dominant pup, that aggression can successfully bring about relief from negative emotions? Regards Gordon Butcher CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue