Subject: Re: Relieving stress in companion animals From: ismail thoya Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:26:15 -0800 (PST) To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca CC: applied-ethology network Hi and a happynew year to everyone, I am not going to give an answer on the issue of wether any studies have been conducted concerning the efficacy of different treatment protocols for behaviour problems in companion animals. But you pointed out that a certain behaviour practitioner apparently 'resolves' 90% of behaviour disorders in dogs by advocating more feeding and less exercise.I consider this not healthy as well as a shotgun method cause what is most likely happening is that you are feeding the dog into placidity/docility. ismail, Dr. I. Thoya (bvm) Petsworld Vet Clinic, Mombasa,Kenya Moyne Drive,Nyali Tel: +254-11-474983 Mobile tel: +254 724 156 552 --- On Wed, 1/14/09, joseph stookey wrote: From: joseph stookey Subject: Relieving stress in companion animals To: "applied-ethology network" Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:27 AM HI Everyone, As an assignment each year, vet students in my behaviour section must write a response to a question they receive about an animal behavioural problem which is asked by another student in the class, such that all the students are responding to a unique question. You can imagine the diversity of species/topics,/questions that the students are randomly assigned. All the questions and responses are publicly shared with the class so that they can read about topics that are of particular interest to them. Anyway, a common question would be one that involves "compulsive behaviours" as seen in companion animals, often "brought on" by suspicion of "anxiety/stress". A common suggested treatment is to provide the pet with a "consistent routine" (especially feeding at the same time) and more exercise. Keep in mind that the students are simply repeating what they find in the literature. They also suggest, what I refer to as the shot-gun treatment approach, in that they make multiple suggestions (all of which they have read in the literature), perhaps reasoning that surely something will work! Being the skeptical scientist that I am, and admittedly having done zero clinical work with companion animals, I find it all rather suspicious in that I wonder if there is any hard evidence to show that some of the suggestions, say consistently feeding the pet at the same time each day, has any benefit what so ever? Consistent time of feeding certainly doesn't change the incidence of stereotypies in limit-fed gestating sows. At the end of the day, hunger or lack of reaching satiety has more to do with the development of stereotypies in our farm animals than most other factors. Several years ago a companion animal behaviourist privately wrote to tell me that he successfully "treats" nearly 90% of the behaviour problems he sees in dogs by prescribing the owner to feed them MORE food and to exercise them LESS. He believed that more exercise might be detrimental in that it only served to create a more athletic dog that craved more exercise (and theoretically more feed) and became more anxious, more hungry and in need of more attention. So my question is whether we know which approach (feeding more and exercising less vs feeding at the same time each day, more exercise, etc.) is better at treating some companion animal "problems"? Are there any scientific studies that have specifically looked at the impact of feeding levels (i.e. limit feeding vs ad libitum) on the impact of behavioural disorders in dogs? Are there any scientific studies that have specifically looked at the impact of exercise on the incidence of behavioural disorders in dogs? I am not trying to pop anyone's bubble of knowledge about what you "know" works when treating compulsive disorders in dogs, but I do find students providing me with long litanies of suggested treatments for any given problem and I can not help but wonder how many of the "treatments" have been tested independently of each other to see which ones really work and which ones we think work, but may not be having any influence. Thanks. Cheers, Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan 52 Campus Drive Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada S7N 5B4 Tel 306-966-7154 Fax 306-966-7159 Subject: RE: RE: RE: Fw: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous From: Randi Helene Tillung Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 00:46:13 +0100 To: 'Christina Lager' , 'ethology' , Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I was very happy to receive the full protocol from a vet in Denmark after following advice from Christina Lager (Thank you!). We have decided that we will follow the protocol for one of the cases (a dog has allegedly bitten a passer-by carrying a dog). (Denmark has a similar legislation to Norway). We will also reconstruct the situation when the dog apparently bit the passer-by. In the other case with the sighthound dogs, we have decided not to use the protocol, but just set up some normal greeting situations. This is because we think it is “overkill” to use a test for “dangerous dogs” when the dogs have never been involved in such a case. They are only really accused of being big… Now, if anyone have any further advise before Tuesday I will be glad to listen! Thank you, Randi Helene Tillung From: Christina Lager [mailto:clager@c.dk] Sent: 15. januar 2009 14:33 To: Matthews, Lindsay Cc: applied ethology Subject: Re: RE: RE: Fw: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous Hi Regarding the testing protocol.... I had my PC fried by ligthning so I had to dig around a bit to find something Thing is my memory isn't what it used to be (LoL, maybe it never was) - and it turns out that the protocol is not a strict series of tests - even though that was what I remembered. (insert apologetic blushing smiley here, please) DSKVE (the Danish society for clinical veterinary ethology) looked for a validated test back when the law about dogs was changed. (2003-2004, thereabouts), We looked at the test for aggression by W.J. Netto og D. Planta (published in Applied Animal Behavior Science in 1997). This test is for aggression generally, not directly about how dangerous the dog is to the public. And we looked at material by dr.Joel Dehasse, who has constructed a model for calculating the level of dangerousness in a dog. At the time the model was not yet validated scientifically. I don't know if this has happened since. We also looked at material supplied by dr. Rudy de Meester. Of course dog behaviour is complex and so is aggression. At the time there simply wasn't any objective standardized validated tests. I would be interested to know whether this has changed in the 5 years since? So, in the end, the conclusion was that the optimal solution was appointing 6 vets experienced in working with behavioural issues. And let the evaluation of the dangerousness of the dog rest on their experience. They use a protocol containing the following points. 1 - evaluating the tendency of the dog to show aggressive behaviour in a form that might be a risk or induce fear in the public. 2 - evaluation of the dog-owner interactions. And the owners ability to control the dog 3 - a clinical examination (to rule out physical changes that might be the root of any aggressive behavoiur) best regards Christina Lager DVM Sinding Denmark mvh Christina Lager Subject: Re: Relieving stress in companion animals From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 07:14:24 -0500 (EST) To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca, applied-ethology@usask.ca Hello, Apart from the possible sedentary effect over eating can produce, there have been several scientific studies relating diets to aggression. Some highlighted beneficial effect of low protein diets on behaviour in dogs, especially on aggression. For dogs with territorial aggression, a low-protein diet has been suggested as being helpful. It is known that some amino acid concentrations in the brain e.g. tryptophan can affect behaviour and cause aggression. Other scientific experiments place low cholesterol and fats as having a causative role A diet rich in antioxidants and other compounds found in fruits, vegetables and olive oil can reduce anxiety related behaviour. So an increase on a certain diet could have an influencing effect. By restraining the dog indoors could also take away the triggers invoking fear-avoidance. Many dogs that are not able to function using the social cues in their daily outdoor environment become explosive when they reach their 'low' threshold. From a biological point of view, both offensive and defensive aggression may be concurrent. A strong association exists between territorial aggression and fear, where fearful dogs are frequently nervous and reactive during territorial exchange. ....................and the list goes on. So, feeding and exercise is too vague a statement. You have to explore further the cause(s) in order to evaluate the worthiness of a 'blind' treatment. Regards Gordon Butcher Subject: RE: RE: RE: Fw: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous From: Rudy De Meester Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 13:17:15 +0100 To: 'Randi Helene Tillung' , 'Christina Lager' , 'ethology' , Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hello to all, The research we did on the MAG (or SAB) test from Doreen Planta, including the validation, is published in the Flemish Veterinary Magazine and in the Journal of Veterinary Behaviour.(October 2008) I am happy to give you the references. The article in the Flemish Veterinary Magazine can be downloaded as a free pdf from the site. Validity of the Socially Acceptable Behavior (SAB) test as a measure of aggression in dogs towards non-familiar humans (volume 76, issue 5, pp. 359-368) J. PLANTA, R. DE MEESTER www.vdt.ugent.be and there you can do a search on Planta as an author. If anyone of you is doing tests for evaluation, please feel free to sent me the protocol, I would be very happy. Rudy De Meester Van: Randi Helene Tillung [mailto:randihelene@tillung.no] Verzonden: zondag 18 januari 2009 0:46 Aan: 'Christina Lager'; 'ethology'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Onderwerp: RE: RE: RE: Fw: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous I was very happy to receive the full protocol from a vet in Denmark after following advice from Christina Lager (Thank you!). We have decided that we will follow the protocol for one of the cases (a dog has allegedly bitten a passer-by carrying a dog). (Denmark has a similar legislation to Norway). We will also reconstruct the situation when the dog apparently bit the passer-by. In the other case with the sighthound dogs, we have decided not to use the protocol, but just set up some normal greeting situations. This is because we think it is “overkill” to use a test for “dangerous dogs” when the dogs have never been involved in such a case. They are only really accused of being big… Now, if anyone have any further advise before Tuesday I will be glad to listen! Thank you, Randi Helene Tillung From: Christina Lager [mailto:clager@c.dk] Sent: 15. januar 2009 14:33 To: Matthews, Lindsay Cc: applied ethology Subject: Re: RE: RE: Fw: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous Hi Regarding the testing protocol.... I had my PC fried by ligthning so I had to dig around a bit to find something Thing is my memory isn't what it used to be (LoL, maybe it never was) - and it turns out that the protocol is not a strict series of tests - even though that was what I remembered. (insert apologetic blushing smiley here, please) DSKVE (the Danish society for clinical veterinary ethology) looked for a validated test back when the law about dogs was changed. (2003-2004, thereabouts), We looked at the test for aggression by W.J. Netto og D. Planta (published in Applied Animal Behavior Science in 1997). This test is for aggression generally, not directly about how dangerous the dog is to the public. And we looked at material by dr.Joel Dehasse, who has constructed a model for calculating the level of dangerousness in a dog. At the time the model was not yet validated scientifically. I don't know if this has happened since. We also looked at material supplied by dr. Rudy de Meester. Of course dog behaviour is complex and so is aggression. At the time there simply wasn't any objective standardized validated tests. I would be interested to know whether this has changed in the 5 years since? So, in the end, the conclusion was that the optimal solution was appointing 6 vets experienced in working with behavioural issues. And let the evaluation of the dangerousness of the dog rest on their experience. They use a protocol containing the following points. 1 - evaluating the tendency of the dog to show aggressive behaviour in a form that might be a risk or induce fear in the public. 2 - evaluation of the dog-owner interactions. And the owners ability to control the dog 3 - a clinical examination (to rule out physical changes that might be the root of any aggressive behavoiur) best regards Christina Lager DVM Sinding Denmark mvh Christina Lager Subject: RE: RE: RE: Fw: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous From: Rudy De Meester Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 13:17:15 +0100 To: 'Randi Helene Tillung' , 'Christina Lager' , 'ethology' , Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hello to all, The research we did on the MAG (or SAB) test from Doreen Planta, including the validation, is published in the Flemish Veterinary Magazine and in the Journal of Veterinary Behaviour.(October 2008) I am happy to give you the references. The article in the Flemish Veterinary Magazine can be downloaded as a free pdf from the site. Validity of the Socially Acceptable Behavior (SAB) test as a measure of aggression in dogs towards non-familiar humans (volume 76, issue 5, pp. 359-368) J. PLANTA, R. DE MEESTER www.vdt.ugent.be and there you can do a search on Planta as an author. If anyone of you is doing tests for evaluation, please feel free to sent me the protocol, I would be very happy. Rudy De Meester Van: Randi Helene Tillung [mailto:randihelene@tillung.no] Verzonden: zondag 18 januari 2009 0:46 Aan: 'Christina Lager'; 'ethology'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Onderwerp: RE: RE: RE: Fw: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous I was very happy to receive the full protocol from a vet in Denmark after following advice from Christina Lager (Thank you!). We have decided that we will follow the protocol for one of the cases (a dog has allegedly bitten a passer-by carrying a dog). (Denmark has a similar legislation to Norway). We will also reconstruct the situation when the dog apparently bit the passer-by. In the other case with the sighthound dogs, we have decided not to use the protocol, but just set up some normal greeting situations. This is because we think it is “overkill” to use a test for “dangerous dogs” when the dogs have never been involved in such a case. They are only really accused of being big… Now, if anyone have any further advise before Tuesday I will be glad to listen! Thank you, Randi Helene Tillung From: Christina Lager [mailto:clager@c.dk] Sent: 15. januar 2009 14:33 To: Matthews, Lindsay Cc: applied ethology Subject: Re: RE: RE: Fw: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous Hi Regarding the testing protocol.... I had my PC fried by ligthning so I had to dig around a bit to find something Thing is my memory isn't what it used to be (LoL, maybe it never was) - and it turns out that the protocol is not a strict series of tests - even though that was what I remembered. (insert apologetic blushing smiley here, please) DSKVE (the Danish society for clinical veterinary ethology) looked for a validated test back when the law about dogs was changed. (2003-2004, thereabouts), We looked at the test for aggression by W.J. Netto og D. Planta (published in Applied Animal Behavior Science in 1997). This test is for aggression generally, not directly about how dangerous the dog is to the public. And we looked at material by dr.Joel Dehasse, who has constructed a model for calculating the level of dangerousness in a dog. At the time the model was not yet validated scientifically. I don't know if this has happened since. We also looked at material supplied by dr. Rudy de Meester. Of course dog behaviour is complex and so is aggression. At the time there simply wasn't any objective standardized validated tests. I would be interested to know whether this has changed in the 5 years since? So, in the end, the conclusion was that the optimal solution was appointing 6 vets experienced in working with behavioural issues. And let the evaluation of the dangerousness of the dog rest on their experience. They use a protocol containing the following points. 1 - evaluating the tendency of the dog to show aggressive behaviour in a form that might be a risk or induce fear in the public. 2 - evaluation of the dog-owner interactions. And the owners ability to control the dog 3 - a clinical examination (to rule out physical changes that might be the root of any aggressive behavoiur) best regards Christina Lager DVM Sinding Denmark mvh Christina Lager Subject: Re: Relieving stress in companion animals- diet From: gflannigan@triad.rr.com Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:21:56 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I am only aware of two peer-reviewed scientific papers that discuss the effect of diet on aggression in dogs: 1. Effect of dietary protein content and tryptophan supplementation on dominance aggression, territorial aggression, and hyperactivity in dogs. DeNapoli JS, Dodman NH, Shuster L, Rand WM, Gross KL. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2000 Aug 15;217(4):504-8. Erratum in: J Am Vet Med Assoc 2000 Oct 1;217(7):1012. 2: Effect of dietary protein content on behavior in dogs. Dodman NH, Reisner I, Shuster L, Rand W, Luescher UA, Robinson I, Houpt KA. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1996 Feb 1;208(3):376-9. There was a time that I advised low protein diets supplemented with tryptophan for dogs with territorial aggression (I followed this tact for about 2 years). It has been shown in rats, that diets low in protein (<18%) and high in carbohydrates increase tryptophan absorption. However, when I read the canine articles closely, I wasn't convinced by the evidence and stopped (after I didn't see a clinical advantage). As far as a cholesterol and fats link to canine aggression, I am not aware of any scientific papers in dogs that have shown this to be true. If you have a reference, please post it. Thanks, Gerry ---- LyndhurstPark@aol.com wrote: > > > > Hello, > > Apart from the possible sedentary effect over eating can produce, there have > > been several scientific studies relating diets to aggression. Some > > highlighted beneficial effect of low protein diets on behaviour in dogs, especially on > > aggression. For dogs with territorial aggression, a low-protein diet has > > been suggested as being helpful. It is known that some amino acid concentrations > > in the brain e.g. tryptophan can affect behaviour and cause aggression. > > Other scientific experiments place low cholesterol and fats as having a causative > > role A diet rich in antioxidants and other compounds found in fruits, > > vegetables and olive oil can reduce anxiety related behaviour. So an increase on a > > certain diet could have an influencing effect. > > By restraining the dog indoors could also take away the triggers invoking > > fear-avoidance. Many dogs that are not able to function using the social cues > > in their daily outdoor environment become explosive when they reach their > > 'low' threshold. From a biological point of view, both offensive and defensive > > aggression may be concurrent. A strong association exists between > > territorial aggression and fear, where fearful dogs are frequently nervous and reactive > > during territorial exchange. > > ....................and the list goes on. So, feeding and exercise is too > > vague a statement. You have to explore further the cause(s) in order to evaluate > > the worthiness of a 'blind' treatment. > > Regards > > Gordon Butcher -- Gerrard Flannigan DVM MSc. DACVB gflannigan@triad.rr.com Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous From: cissy stamm Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:28:36 -0800 To: Rudy De Meester CC: 'Randi Helene Tillung' , 'Christina Lager' , 'ethology' , Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I found a description with video of the test on line at: http://www.magtest.nl/sab-test/intro.html cissy On Jan 18, 2009, at 4:17 AM, Rudy De Meester wrote: > Hello to all, > > The research we did on the MAG (or SAB) test from Doreen Planta, including the validation, is published in the Flemish Veterinary Magazine and in the Journal of Veterinary Behaviour.(October 2008) > I am happy to give you the references. > The article in the Flemish Veterinary Magazine can be downloaded as a free pdf from the site. > > Validity of the Socially Acceptable Behavior (SAB) test as a measure of aggression in dogs towards non-familiar humans > (volume 76, issue 5, pp. 359-368) J. PLANTA, R. DE MEESTER > > www.vdt.ugent.be > and there you can do a search on Planta as an author. > > If anyone of you is doing tests for evaluation, please feel free to sent me the protocol, I would be very happy. > > Rudy De Meester > > > > Van: Randi Helene Tillung [mailto:randihelene@tillung.no] > Verzonden: zondag 18 januari 2009 0:46 > Aan: 'Christina Lager'; 'ethology'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Onderwerp: RE: RE: RE: Fw: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous > > I was very happy to receive the full protocol from a vet in Denmark after following advice from Christina Lager (Thank you!). We have decided that we will follow the protocol for one of the cases (a dog has allegedly bitten a passer-by carrying a dog). (Denmark has a similar legislation to Norway). We will also reconstruct the situation when the dog apparently bit the passer-by. > > In the other case with the sighthound dogs, we have decided not to use the protocol, but just set up some normal greeting situations. This is because we think it is “overkill” to use a test for “dangerous dogs” when the dogs have never been involved in such a case. They are only really accused of being big… > > Now, if anyone have any further advise before Tuesday I will be glad to listen! > > Thank you, > > > Randi Helene Tillung > > >> Joe Hi Joe, What an interesting question!! I would seriously suggest that you join James O'Heare's list, and put the question there. DogBehaviorThinkTank-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Related link: http://www.JamesOHeare.com (Or at least, I hope you will because it should generate a fruitful discussion.) In the meantime, speaking as a Dog Trainer [Cert IV in Behavioural Dog Training (Delta CGC)] and one that prefers to work with "problem" dogs (I find that most "good" dogs are sadly lacking in character and joy) I would say that the question brings up so many more questions. You would need to know what conditions the dogs are living under that creates the stress, what breed the dog is, what food it is currently being fed, how much training the dog has, how much exercise the dog is getting, how often does the dog interact with the humans in the family, what other pets are in the family, what is the situation between the humans in the family -- and THAT is just for starters. Are there neighbourts who are annoying the dog? Are there activities that create unpleasant noises in the neighbourhood (high ptiched tool noises, airconditioning, etc)? As your students are vet students I would hope that they would all suggest first checking for veterinary conditions -- hip dysplasia, arthritis, digestive problems, and many more that I have heard about -- thyroid problems, etc. (I have personal experience with dogs whose behaviour problems were helped by antihistamines!!! The current one, her taking antihistamines stopped her sister of attacking her -- THAT I am curious about -- is it because she now behaves better (I see no difference, except for less vulval swelling and less scratching --and so doesn't invite the aggression or is it because she now smells 'normal'???) And THAT all seems to be a Wandering Jew (Tradescantia) problem :-( I would say that a dog that is underfed and overexercised probably would benefit from more food and less exercise. However, that is the way that most sheep dogs are kept in this country, and as far as I know they don't have anxiety problems. In my experience most pet dogs suffer stress because of boredom, lack of companionship and poor diet -- and are often over-fed. Sometimes there is domestic violence or other abuse involved and that can create stresses for the dog -- for example, I have heard of situation where the husband is abusing his wife by abusing her dog. Then unruly, rebellious teenagers in a home can create stress for everybody in the household, including of course the dog. I have never heard the suggestion to create a set feeding routine to solve anxiety problems. Maybe if there is tension within the human part of the family, creating set routines for the dog might help it. (My own personal take it to NOT be in too much of a routine because then, if for any reason you cannot feed according to the routine the dog WILL become stressed -- but if it knows that dinner comes somewhere between 5pm and 10pm, and if the people aren't home by 10 then I'll get an early breakfast, then any interruption to a routine should not upset the dog. I know that Turid Rugaas http://www.canis.no/rugaas/ is the chief proponent of "too much exercise stressing a dog" -- but I suspect that she is talking of the amount of exercise and 'training' that people highly involved in the various dog sports tend to give their dogs. Dogs DO need free time to hang out and be a dog. I worry about 'inside' dogs too -- I don't like to think of a dog only getting out for the proverbial US "potty break". But then, I see some 'back-yards'!!! Some seem to be nothing more than a concrete path to keep the garbage bin in :-( I hear on US list far too often of dogs that are crated inside the house all day when the owner is at work, and then is again crated when the owner goes to bed at night. That can't be healthy either physically OR psychologically for any intelligent animal. For a lot of dogs, their walk is a stressful time. They must walk at the owner's/handler's pace -- which is very uncomfortable for most dogs -- and must walk at heel beside the person, with no time to sniff and investigate. I would think that in general --after interviewing the dog's owners/carers and checking that there is not something major the problem-- suggesting more leisurely walks on a longer lead, or preferably off-lead, would help alleviate much canine stress. This "rambling' IS something that Turid recommends. I remind my clients that the dog's walk is for the dog's benefit, and it must be at the dog's pace giving the dog time to stop and "smell the roses" -- even if they come disguised as old chip packets and bird droppings :-) Sincerely, Jenny Haskins "Family Dog Training" Coffs Harbour NSW Australia Subject: Re: Relieving stress in companion animals- diet/placebo effect From: EJ Haskins Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:20:35 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > There was a time that I advised low protein diets supplemented with tryptophan for dogs with territorial aggression (I followed this tact for about 2 years). It has been shown in rats, that diets low in protein (<18%) and high in carbohydrates increase tryptophan absorption. However, when I read the canine articles closely, I wasn't convinced by the evidence and stopped (after I didn't see a clinical advantage).> > As far as a cholesterol and fats link to canine aggression, I am not aware of any scientific papers in dogs that have shown this to be true. If you have a reference, please post it. Thanks, > Gerry I DO think that for both Canine Aggression and Canine Anxiety, placebos can work excellently -- provided that the owner/handler believes in them :-) So if the owner truly believes that the low protein diet or elimination diet will work, chances are that it will, even if it actually has nothing to do with the problem Anything that will reduce anxiety in the human part of the team will ease the dog. (No primary references except for my own observation and experience, but plenty of secondary references -- Patricia McConnell, and Paul Owens I think of immediately. in his book "The Dog Whisperer: A Compassionate, Nonviolent Approach to Dog Training" Paul gives a chapter to an exercise he calls "Complete Breathing" to help calm the handlers. I have used this in my classes and found it amazing just how quickly the dogs settled while their owners had their eyes shut and were concentration on their breathing! This is how I suspect that giving the owners a fancy set ritual for feeding the dog might help calm the owners (in that they feel they are doing something positive/their best for the dog) and also have a straight placebo effect in that the owners truly believe it will work :-) Jenny H Coffs Australia Subject: Pressure measuring device (equine) / Positive reinforcement (equine) / Grooming terminology From: Jenni Hakosalo Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:13:39 +0200 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hello to everyone and greetings from snowy Finland! A few questions to start this great year 2009 with: 1. An interaction between horse and rider, "contact" etc -> Could someone please help me out here, as I'm trying to find commercially available device for measuring rain tension/bit pressure/leg pressure? Simple and non-recording systems are also wanted, since device will be used for educational purposes, not data collection. I'm not able to find the distributors of almost any device described in articles. 2. Positive reinforcement - Treat delivery for a ridden horse? Are there any convenient systems to deliver treats/tidbits as rewards directly to the mouth of a ridden horse (by the rider), while the horse is moving? There are some authors who have described systems for delivering e.g. sugar water through a small hose/pipe directly to horse's mouth and I'd love to know more. Have there been any problems while giving small portions of solid food or liquid to a performing/moving horse? And again: Are any of these device commercially available? (Since I'm totally lacking the expertice to build up my own!) 3. About grooming terminology: I'm wondering, if the term "xenogrooming" is something one could use when speaking about inter-species grooming behaviour? Meaning that "xenogrooming" would be separated from "allogrooming", as allogrooming now includes both inter- and intra-species grooming. This way the word itself would define weather grooming is directed to an individual of same species or not. I just came up with this thought when comparing this terminology with transplantantion terminology (auto-, allo-, xenotransplantation). All comments will be appreciated. Best wishes, Jenni -- Jenni Hakosalo MSc Vertepro Ltd PL 29 70201 Kuopio FIN +358 40 414 43 43 jenni@vertepro.fi www.vertepro.fi Subject: Re: Relieving stress in companion animals- diet From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:33:26 -0500 (EST) To: gflannigan@triad.rr.com CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hello Gerry, Other scientific dietary experiments Buydens-Branchey et al, (2000). Golomb et al (2000). Hennessay (2001). Freeman (2000). There are others if you would like me to dig them out. On the one hand we are attempting to provide possible deductions on the effectiveness of the sedentary effect as a direct result of inactivity, but then we have to consider the finding voiced by Rueter and Jacobs (1996), and others. Where rhythmic activities such as walking and running has effect on 5-HT levels in various parts of the forebrain giving a sense of well being and the ability to cope with stressful situation. By impeding daily exercise this could have a counter effect. So, again its impossible to proffer a theory without first discovering the causes underpinning the behaviour. Regards Gordon. In a message dated 18/01/2009 14:22:36 GMT Standard Time, gflannigan@triad.rr.com writes: I am only aware of two peer-reviewed scientific papers that discuss the effect of diet on aggression in dogs: 1. Effect of dietary protein content and tryptophan supplementation on dominance aggression, territorial aggression, and hyperactivity in dogs. DeNapoli JS, Dodman NH, Shuster L, Rand WM, Gross KL. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2000 Aug 15;217(4):504-8. Erratum in: J Am Vet Med Assoc 2000 Oct 1;217(7):1012. 2: Effect of dietary protein content on behavior in dogs. Dodman NH, Reisner I, Shuster L, Rand W, Luescher UA, Robinson I, Houpt KA. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1996 Feb 1;208(3):376-9. There was a time that I advised low protein diets supplemented with tryptophan for dogs with territorial aggression (I followed this tact for about 2 years). It has been shown in rats, that diets low in protein (<18%) and high in carbohydrates increase tryptophan absorption. However, when I read the canine articles closely, I wasn't convinced by the evidence and stopped (after I didn't see a clinical advantage). As far as a cholesterol and fats link to canine aggression, I am not aware of any scientific papers in dogs that have shown this to be true. If you have a reference, please post it. Thanks, Gerry ---- LyndhurstPark@aol.com wrote: > > Hello, > Apart from the possible sedentary effect over eating can produce, there have > been several scientific studies relating diets to aggression. Some > highlighted beneficial effect of low protein diets on behaviour in dogs, especially on > aggression. For dogs with territorial aggression, a low-protein diet has > been suggested as being helpful. It is known that some amino acid concentrations > in the brain e.g. tryptophan can affect behaviour and cause aggression. > Other scientific experiments place low cholesterol and fats as having a causative > role A diet rich in antioxidants and other compounds found in fruits, > vegetables and olive oil can reduce anxiety related behaviour. So an increase on a > certain diet could have an influencing effect. > By restraining the dog indoors could also take away the triggers invoking > fear-avoidance. Many dogs that are not able to function using the social cues > in their daily outdoor environment become explosive when they reach their > 'low' threshold. From a biological point of view, both offensive and defensive > aggression may be concurrent. A strong association exists between > territorial aggression and fear, where fearful dogs are frequently nervous and reactive > during territorial exchange. > ....................and the list goes on. So, feeding and exercise is too > vague a statement. You have to explore further the cause(s) in order to evaluate > the worthiness of a 'blind' treatment. > Regards > Gordon Butcher -- Gerrard Flannigan DVM MSc. DACVB gflannigan@triad.rr.com Subject: RE: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: Zen Trainer Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:35:15 -0600 To: Ethics List The law is probably a bit different everywhere. Here in TN I have testified for and against several dogs. I use a variety of tests or I guess I have taken a variety of tests and formed them into my own. This is uncharted legal territory here. When it comes to condo's and apartments they get to make their own rules. Most here take only small dogs. (25 lbs and under) Very few allow pit bulls. Having a CGC does seem to help when living in one of these types of communities. And the test itself is a good test of whether or not you would want a particular dog living next to you. The test is quite simple and available on line from the AKC as someone else mentioned. ~can your dog walk past people and ignore them. ~can your dog walk past other dogs and ignore them. ~can your dog walk through a crowd. ~can someone approach you and your dog ignore them. ~etc. There are diffferent temperament tests available for stray dogs or dangerous dogs (you can find those on line as well) but the CGC sounds like what you need. And also as someone mentioned the attorney needs to know the condo rules. They often have some very silly rules, like you can plant only certain color flowers, etc. I just had a client that was asked to leave because she has a pit bull. It's a year old and she has lived there for 2 years. Supposedly the lease says pit bulls aren't allowed. The first thing I had her do was check the lease. The pit bull part was a page that was added and did not have her signature. I don't think it will hold up in court. The doubtfulness of it's validity has bought her time to find another apartment. We have vague laws for service dogs here as well and some condo's can be very accomodating. I've had dogs that alert the owners to doorbells and the phone that were considered "service dogs" and allowed in condo's that did not allow dogs at all. As with any type of service dog though the dog has to be well behaved. I was on a plane once where a blind person and their dog were kicked off because the dog was unruly. (I mean wild!) That is not a violation of any ADA laws....dogs have to be well behaved in today's close society. Especially on planes and in condo's. My big pup get a bit of latitude in his squirrel chasing and barking only because we live on 2 fenced acres in a fairly secluded spot. Good luck! Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org. Now, if anyone have any further advise before Tuesday I will be glad to listen! Thank you, Randi Helene Tillung Subject: Relieving Stress in Companion Animals From: Zen Trainer Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:57:52 -0600 To: Ethics List LOL! I like the part about feeding dogs more and exercising them less. I had a client who was using that method to keep her dogs from jumping the fence. Fatten them up till they are too lethargic and/or physically able to jump it. I can't see how this would work for stress. You can lie still and be stressed out. Purdue did a study on OCD in dogs years back. It has a lot of good information. As far as studies go I think a lot of studies that were done on humans apply to animals as well. So I rely on several of these. ~Children feel more secure with a set routine. (Lunch is at noon, nap is right after.) ~Certain smells have a calming affect. (Lavendar, cedar, DAP, etc.) ~Certain herbs have calming affects. (Valerian root, Kava Kava, SAM E, etc.) ~Certain types of music have calming affects. (some classical and air pudding new age type stuff) ~Certain foods have calming affects. (anything with trytophan anything WITHOUT sugar) ~Certain drugs have calming affects. (Valium, buspar, amitryptoline, etc) ~Several types of touch can relieve stress (Chiropractic adjustments, massage, T Touch etc.) ~Certain environments can be calming. Sometimes I am just extrapolating the results of the study and sometimes I know that the study was done on animals first (as in drugs). And I always remember that every dog, cat, rat, child or adult is different. Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org Subject: Re: RE: RE: Fw: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous From: John Burchard Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:22 -0800 To: Applied Ethology list Randi Helene Tillung wrote: > I was very happy to receive the full protocol from a vet in Denmark > after following advice from Christina Lager (Thank you!). We have > decided that we will follow the protocol for one of the cases (a dog > has allegedly bitten a passer-by carrying a dog). (Denmark has a > similar legislation to Norway). We will also reconstruct the > situation when the dog apparently bit the passer-by. > > In the other case with the sighthound dogs, we have decided not to > use the protocol, but just set up some normal greeting situations. > This is because we think it is "overkill" to use a test for > "dangerous dogs" when the dogs have never been involved in such a > case. They are only really accused of being big. > > Now, if anyone have any further advise before Tuesday I will be glad > to listen! What kind of sighthounds are accused of being "big"??? Only Irish Wolfhounds (among the most amiable and good-natured of all dogs) or perhaps Deerhounds fit that description. Most other sighthounds are "tall" but not really "big" ... and as a rule sighthounds are mild-mannered and very UNaggressive. John -- John E. Burchard, Ph.D. Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: EJ Haskins Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:07:29 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca http://www.magtest.nl/sab-test/intro.html SAB-Test I opened this after I received the URL and watched in horrified fascination the videos of this test being administered. (They do take a while to download each one, but think that everybody here should watch them .) The whole thing looks farcical to me, and extraordinarily stressful to the dog being assessed. The so called CAT was a cartoon silhouette -- I would challenge the test makers/devisers to find ANY dog that would think the thing was a cat. As for being prodded by a huge heavy pole with a rubber glove on the end of it! Or having a doll poked in the dog's face. Honestly -- do the test users/devisers really think that dogs even SEE dolls as children???? (Do they really not realise that most dogs recognise by scent?? And react to child squeals? Or hurt a child trying to pinch their ice-cream?) I just cannot see such a test as this giving results with any corelation to how safe teh tested dogs are in public with people and other dogs. Sincerely, Jenny Haskins Coffs NSW Subject: RE: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: Whitebird Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:16:34 +1300 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hi Jenny, I totally agree. I also felt that by doing the test all on one day, stressors could accumulate until the poor dog exploded at this madness!!!!!! Cheers Diana From: EJ Haskins [mailto:ejhaskins@bigpond.com] Sent: 20 January 2009 19:07 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous http://www.magtest.nl/sab-test/intro.html SAB-Test I opened this after I received the URL and watched in horrified fascination the videos of this test being administered. (They do take a while to download each one, but think that everybody here should watch them .) The whole thing looks farcical to me, and extraordinarily stressful to the dog being assessed. The so called CAT was a cartoon silhouette -- I would challenge the test makers/devisers to find ANY dog that would think the thing was a cat. As for being prodded by a huge heavy pole with a rubber glove on the end of it! Or having a doll poked in the dog's face. Honestly -- do the test users/devisers really think that dogs even SEE dolls as children???? (Do they really not realise that most dogs recognise by scent?? And react to child squeals? Or hurt a child trying to pinch their ice-cream?) I just cannot see such a test as this giving results with any corelation to how safe teh tested dogs are in public with people and other dogs. Sincerely, Jenny Haskins Coffs NSW Subject: RE: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous From: Rudy De Meester Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:24:22 +0100 To: "'Matthews, Lindsay'" CC: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Dear Lindsay, I attached the pdf. of the first publication. I’m sorry, but it was not www.vdt.ugent.be but just http://vdt.ugent.be Rudy Van: Matthews, Lindsay [mailto:lindsay.matthews@agresearch.co.nz] Verzonden: dinsdag 20 januari 2009 0:36 Aan: Rudy De Meester Onderwerp: RE: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous Hi Rudy I couldn’t get through to this web site (www.vdt.ugent.be) …could you please send the pdf as an attachment for the article …(volume 76, issue 5, pp. 359-368) J. PLANTA, R. DE MEESTER Many thanks Lindsay Matthews From: cissy stamm [mailto:stammwood@rcn.com] Sent: Monday, 19 January 2009 7:29 a.m. To: Rudy De Meester Cc: 'Randi Helene Tillung'; 'Christina Lager'; 'ethology'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous I found a description with video of the test on line at: http://www.magtest.nl/sab-test/intro.html cissy On Jan 18, 2009, at 4:17 AM, Rudy De Meester wrote: Hello to all, The research we did on the MAG (or SAB) test from Doreen Planta, including the validation, is published in the Flemish Veterinary Magazine and in the Journal of Veterinary Behaviour.(October 2008) I am happy to give you the references. The article in the Flemish Veterinary Magazine can be downloaded as a free pdf from the site. Validity of the Socially Acceptable Behavior (SAB) test as a measure of aggression in dogs towards non-familiar humans (volume 76, issue 5, pp. 359-368) J. PLANTA, R. DE MEESTER www.vdt.ugent.be and there you can do a search on Planta as an author. If anyone of you is doing tests for evaluation, please feel free to sent me the protocol, I would be very happy. Rudy De Meester Van: Randi Helene Tillung [mailto:randihelene@tillung.no] Verzonden: zondag 18 januari 2009 0:46 Aan: 'Christina Lager'; 'ethology'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Onderwerp: RE: RE: RE: Fw: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous I was very happy to receive the full protocol from a vet in Denmark after following advice from Christina Lager (Thank you!). We have decided that we will follow the protocol for one of the cases (a dog has allegedly bitten a passer-by carrying a dog). (Denmark has a similar legislation to Norway). We will also reconstruct the situation when the dog apparently bit the passer-by. In the other case with the sighthound dogs, we have decided not to use the protocol, but just set up some normal greeting situations. This is because we think it is “overkill” to use a test for “dangerous dogs” when the dogs have never been involved in such a case. They are only really accused of being big… Now, if anyone have any further advise before Tuesday I will be glad to listen! Thank you, Randi Helene Tillung From: Christina Lager [mailto:clager@c.dk] Sent: 15. januar 2009 14:33 To: Matthews, Lindsay Cc: applied ethology Subject: Re: RE: RE: Fw: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are c onsi dere d frightening/dangerous Hi Regarding the testing protocol.... I had my PC fried by ligthning so I had to dig around a bit to find something Thing is my memory isn't what it used to be (LoL, maybe it never was) - and it turns out that the protocol is not a strict series of tests - even though that was what I remembered. (insert apologetic blushing smiley here, please) DSKVE (the Danish society for clinical veterinary ethology) looked for a validated test back when the law about dogs was changed. (2003-2004, thereabouts), We looked at the test for aggression by W.J. Netto og D. Planta (published in Applied Animal Behavior Science in 1997). This test is for aggression generally, not directly about how dangerous the dog is to the public. And we looked at material by dr.Joel Dehasse, who has constructed a model for calculating the level of dangerousness in a dog. At the time the model was not yet validated scientifically. I don't know if this has happened since. We also looked at material supplied by dr. Rudy de Meester. Of course dog behaviour is complex and so is aggression. At the time there simply wasn't any objective standardized validated tests. I would be interested to know whether this has changed in the 5 years since? So, in the end, the conclusion was that the optimal solution was appointing 6 vets experienced in working with behavioural issues. And let the evaluation of the dangerousness of the dog rest on their experience. They use a protocol containing the following points. 1 - evaluating the tendency of the dog to show aggressive behaviour in a form that might be a risk or induce fear in the public. 2 - evaluation of the dog-owner interactions. And the owners ability to control the dog 3 - a clinical examination (to rule out physical changes that might be the root of any aggressive behavoiur) best regards Christina Lager DVM Sinding Denmark mvh Christina Lager Attention: The information contained in this message and/or attachments from AgResearch Limited is intended only for the persons or entities to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipients is prohibited by AgResearch Limited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Subject: RE: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: Zen Trainer Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:40:17 -0600 To: Ethics List I did not see the video but I have seen some pretty silly temperament tests and I've seen some good ones poorly administered. However, I have always questioned a dogs scent ability. My old Chow used to bark at lion statues at the ends of people's driveways. My groomer had a life size cut out of John Wayne that drove several dogs into a fenzy. And I've seen a lot of dogs bark at their reflection in mirrors. I've worked with Beagles who couldn't find a piece of cheeseburger dropped in the grass right in fron of their noses. So, I don't know. If temperament testing is being done to decide life or death then I think it needs to be done a bit more fairly. Though I realize that many places testing don't have time. Our shelters here are so swamped with dogs that they have 3 days before they are killed. Some of them whether they pass the test or not. At one shelter we kill over 400 unwanted dogs per week. The cat thing is pretty silly but the doll is at least a first step. I would say eating the doll would be a bad indicator. (My test doll cries and has spent a lot of time in a crib with a real baby and usually wears a real, used wet diaper for the test.) I use a fake hand which I suppose the stick with a rubber glove simulates. I don't poke anyone with it but I have to say mine has bite marks and I'm glad it's a fake hand and not my hand. The original poster was looking for a test for the owner of pets. For that a CGC really is good enough for court and for a more complete test for an owner I would take the dog for a day or so. I can test it safely around cats and kids in a home setting. Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org The whole thing looks farcical to me, and extraordinarily stressful to the dog being assessed. The so called CAT was a cartoon silhouette -- I would challenge the test makers/devisers to find ANY dog that would think the thing was a cat. As for being prodded by a huge heavy pole with a rubber glove on the end of it! Or having a doll poked in the dog's face. Honestly -- do the test users/devisers really think that dogs even SEE dolls as children???? (Do they really not realise that most dogs recognise by scent?? And react to child squeals? Or hurt a child trying to pinch their ice-cream?) I just cannot see such a test as this giving results with any corelation to how safe teh tested dogs are in public with people and other dogs. Sincerely, Jenny Haskins Coffs NSW Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: John Burchard Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:46:15 -0800 To: Applied Ethology list Zen Trainer wrote: > I did not see the video but I have seen some pretty silly temperament > tests and I've seen some good ones poorly administered. > > However, I have always questioned a dogs scent ability. My old Chow > used to bark at lion statues at the ends of people's driveways. My > groomer had a life size cut out of John Wayne that drove several dogs > into a fenzy. And I've seen a lot of dogs bark at their reflection in > mirrors. I've worked with Beagles who couldn't find a piece of > cheeseburger dropped in the grass right in fron of their noses. So, I > don't know. > > If temperament testing is being done to decide life or death then I > think it needs to be done a bit more fairly. Though I realize that > many places testing don't have time. Our shelters here are so swamped > with dogs that they have 3 days before they are killed. Some of them > whether they pass the test or not. At one shelter we kill over 400 > unwanted dogs per week. > > The cat thing is pretty silly but the doll is at least a first step. > I would say eating the doll would be a bad indicator. (My test doll > cries and has spent a lot of time in a crib with a real baby and > usually wears a real, used wet diaper for the test.) > > I use a fake hand which I suppose the stick with a rubber glove > simulates. I don't poke anyone with it but I have to say mine has > bite marks and I'm glad it's a fake hand and not my hand. > > The original poster was looking for a test for the owner of pets. For > that a CGC really is good enough for court and for a more complete > test for an owner I would take the dog for a day or so. I can test it > safely around cats and kids in a home setting. Tracy B Ann I'm afraid I think these things are altogether too schematic and therefore fraught with possibilities, no probabilities, of error. For example, I have hunting dogs whose job is to catch small agile prey (hares). Most of them include cats in that category. Only cats they don't know, that is. Our own cats were always perfectly safe, in the house, outside the house or even on long walks in the desert, where they played "catch me" with the dogs. The same dogs were also perfectly safe with our various other pets (free flying parrots, among others) and with children of all sizes down to the smallest (both my sons grew up with them, from earliest infancy). Dogs can make much more differentiated discriminations than we commonly give them credit for. Our own cats were sacred, inviolate, indeed treated with great affection (leading to comical situations in which kittens, which one of the dogs had helped to rear along with their own mother, seemed at times to have a little confusion of identity ), while "stranger" cats were treated as prey. I don't think that sort of discrimination is even unusual - and I also don't see how you could evaluate it in an unfamiliar animal in an unfamiliar setting in the space of a few minutes or by some kind of standardized test. I'm afraid I have the impression that in most cases "temperament testing" is just being used as an excuse to kill dogs, mostly unnecessarily. John -- John E. Burchard, Ph.D. Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com Subject: RE: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: Randi Helene Tillung Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:55:05 +0100 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca, 'ethology' What alternatives are we left with apart from letting an experienced behaviourist evaluating the dogs? I am not trying to be cheeky, I really am interested in everyone's opinion about this. In the cases I took now it was the owners who wanted their dogs tested. In one of the instances the dog would not let us touch it on the head at the first greeting. Stiff body and deep growling. The test could not be followed through safely and had to be aborted. This is truly worrying behavior. And the owner has still not decided if she/he will pay for me writing a report. Kleenex works better for absorbing tears than the paper I will print the report on. Now, I am wondering if I will be called in as a witness by the police even if it was not they who ordered the test. That's an interesting situation... What I am worried about with testing is that dogs that are allegedly aggressive, cannot be tested towards children. So a dog can pass the test nicely and still be aggressive towards children. At least I would never bring an unfamiliar dog into my house with the children present. I would consider that foolish even with my eldest who are not at all interested in dogs and never would provoke them. She very seldom touches dogs and will stop or walk around them if they are in the way. (Result of a gene mutation??? :)) I remember a lecture with Rudy de Meester where he showed videos of a children's size doll being rolled towards or past dogs during testing. He found that some dogs could attack the doll. Now, will an interview with the owners and victims be enough if you do not have a possibility to test towards children? An vice versa, is it fair to the dog if has been thoroughly bullied by a child before it bit? That dog could have nicely passed a test with the childrens doll. Yours, Randi Helene Tillung Fjellanger Dog Training Academy -----Original Message----- From: John Burchard [mailto:saluqi@ix.netcom.com] Sent: 22. januar 2009 05:46 To: Applied Ethology list Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous Zen Trainer wrote: > > I did not see the video but I have seen some pretty silly temperament > > tests and I've seen some good ones poorly administered. > > > > However, I have always questioned a dogs scent ability. My old Chow > > used to bark at lion statues at the ends of people's driveways. My > > groomer had a life size cut out of John Wayne that drove several dogs > > into a fenzy. And I've seen a lot of dogs bark at their reflection in > > mirrors. I've worked with Beagles who couldn't find a piece of > > cheeseburger dropped in the grass right in fron of their noses. So, I > > don't know. > > > > If temperament testing is being done to decide life or death then I > > think it needs to be done a bit more fairly. Though I realize that > > many places testing don't have time. Our shelters here are so swamped > > with dogs that they have 3 days before they are killed. Some of them > > whether they pass the test or not. At one shelter we kill over 400 > > unwanted dogs per week. > > > > The cat thing is pretty silly but the doll is at least a first step. > > I would say eating the doll would be a bad indicator. (My test doll > > cries and has spent a lot of time in a crib with a real baby and > > usually wears a real, used wet diaper for the test.) > > > > I use a fake hand which I suppose the stick with a rubber glove > > simulates. I don't poke anyone with it but I have to say mine has > > bite marks and I'm glad it's a fake hand and not my hand. > > > > The original poster was looking for a test for the owner of pets. For > > that a CGC really is good enough for court and for a more complete > > test for an owner I would take the dog for a day or so. I can test it > > safely around cats and kids in a home setting. Tracy B Ann I'm afraid I think these things are altogether too schematic and therefore fraught with possibilities, no probabilities, of error. For example, I have hunting dogs whose job is to catch small agile prey (hares). Most of them include cats in that category. Only cats they don't know, that is. Our own cats were always perfectly safe, in the house, outside the house or even on long walks in the desert, where they played "catch me" with the dogs. The same dogs were also perfectly safe with our various other pets (free flying parrots, among others) and with children of all sizes down to the smallest (both my sons grew up with them, from earliest infancy). Dogs can make much more differentiated discriminations than we commonly give them credit for. Our own cats were sacred, inviolate, indeed treated with great affection (leading to comical situations in which kittens, which one of the dogs had helped to rear along with their own mother, seemed at times to have a little confusion of identity ), while "stranger" cats were treated as prey. I don't think that sort of discrimination is even unusual - and I also don't see how you could evaluate it in an unfamiliar animal in an unfamiliar setting in the space of a few minutes or by some kind of standardized test. I'm afraid I have the impression that in most cases "temperament testing" is just being used as an excuse to kill dogs, mostly unnecessarily. John -- John E. Burchard, Ph.D. Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: Sabine Goubau Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:52:00 -0700 To: Randi Helene Tillung CC: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca, 'ethology' Hi Randi, I think you are not finding nor receiving a clear answer, because there isn't one. Maybe you need to look at the problem from a different angle. When in doubt, in the courts, I am pretty sure that the dog will be the loser. I sat an a quasi judicial board and I know that people making the decisions want to play it safe, and when it comes to chose between the well being of a dog and that of people, they will feel compelled to play it safe in favor of the people. Thus if the other party has any facts that can cast doubts on the safety of these dogs, and you cannot show beyond doubt that the dogs are safe, then I think the dog owners should look for a solution out of court. It seems to me that the situation has already gone too far to save it and that the people should consider moving out with their dogs. Crossing hallways with people who are afraid of the dogs and even hate them, is not a good setup, even with good dogs. Furthermore, as one friend of mine who rescues pittbulls put it: "once people decide that a dog is dangerous, the dog is not even allowed to fart." Thus, even if going to court allows them to stay with the dogs and buys them time, I don't see that a good outcome is possible. Sabine Randi Helene Tillung wrote: > What alternatives are we left with apart from letting an experienced > behaviourist evaluating the dogs? I am not trying to be cheeky, I really am > interested in everyone's opinion about this. > > In the cases I took now it was the owners who wanted their dogs tested. In > one of the instances the dog would not let us touch it on the head at the > first greeting. Stiff body and deep growling. The test could not be followed > through safely and had to be aborted. This is truly worrying behavior. And > the owner has still not decided if she/he will pay for me writing a report. > Kleenex works better for absorbing tears than the paper I will print the > report on. Now, I am wondering if I will be called in as a witness by the > police even if it was not they who ordered the test. That's an interesting > situation... > > What I am worried about with testing is that dogs that are allegedly > aggressive, cannot be tested towards children. So a dog can pass the test > nicely and still be aggressive towards children. At least I would never > bring an unfamiliar dog into my house with the children present. I would > consider that foolish even with my eldest who are not at all interested in > dogs and never would provoke them. She very seldom touches dogs and will > stop or walk around them if they are in the way. (Result of a gene > mutation??? :)) > > I remember a lecture with Rudy de Meester where he showed videos of a > children's size doll being rolled towards or past dogs during testing. He > found that some dogs could attack the doll. > > Now, will an interview with the owners and victims be enough if you do not > have a possibility to test towards children? An vice versa, is it fair to > the dog if has been thoroughly bullied by a child before it bit? That dog > could have nicely passed a test with the childrens doll. > > Yours, > > > Randi Helene Tillung > Fjellanger Dog Training Academy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Burchard [mailto:saluqi@ix.netcom.com] Sent: 22. januar 2009 05:46 > To: Applied Ethology list > Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are > considered frightening/dangerous > > Zen Trainer wrote: > > >> I did not see the video but I have seen some pretty silly temperament >> tests and I've seen some good ones poorly administered. >> >> However, I have always questioned a dogs scent ability. My old Chow >> used to bark at lion statues at the ends of people's driveways. My >> groomer had a life size cut out of John Wayne that drove several dogs >> into a fenzy. And I've seen a lot of dogs bark at their reflection in >> mirrors. I've worked with Beagles who couldn't find a piece of >> cheeseburger dropped in the grass right in fron of their noses. So, I >> don't know. >> >> If temperament testing is being done to decide life or death then I >> think it needs to be done a bit more fairly. Though I realize that >> many places testing don't have time. Our shelters here are so swamped >> with dogs that they have 3 days before they are killed. Some of them >> whether they pass the test or not. At one shelter we kill over 400 >> unwanted dogs per week. >> >> The cat thing is pretty silly but the doll is at least a first step. >> I would say eating the doll would be a bad indicator. (My test doll >> cries and has spent a lot of time in a crib with a real baby and >> usually wears a real, used wet diaper for the test.) >> >> I use a fake hand which I suppose the stick with a rubber glove >> simulates. I don't poke anyone with it but I have to say mine has >> bite marks and I'm glad it's a fake hand and not my hand. >> >> The original poster was looking for a test for the owner of pets. For >> that a CGC really is good enough for court and for a more complete >> test for an owner I would take the dog for a day or so. I can test it >> safely around cats and kids in a home setting. Tracy B Ann >> > > I'm afraid I think these things are altogether too schematic and therefore fraught with possibilities, no probabilities, of error. > > For example, I have hunting dogs whose job is to catch small agile prey > (hares). Most of them include cats in that category. Only cats they don't know, that > is. Our own cats were always perfectly safe, in the house, outside the house or > even on long walks in the desert, where they played "catch me" with the dogs. > The same dogs were also perfectly safe with our various other pets (free flying parrots, among others) and with children of all sizes down to the smallest > (both my sons grew up with them, from earliest infancy). > > Dogs can make much more differentiated discriminations than we commonly give > > them credit for. Our own cats were sacred, inviolate, indeed treated with > great affection (leading to comical situations in which kittens, which one of the > dogs had helped to rear along with their own mother, seemed at times to have a > little confusion of identity ), while "stranger" cats were treated as prey. I > don't think that sort of discrimination is even unusual - and I also don't see how > you could evaluate it in an unfamiliar animal in an unfamiliar setting in the > space of a few minutes or by some kind of standardized test. > > I'm afraid I have the impression that in most cases "temperament testing" is > > just being used as an excuse to kill dogs, mostly unnecessarily. > > John > -- > John E. Burchard, Ph.D. > Tepe Gawra Salukis > saluqi@ix.netcom.com > http://saluqi.home.netcom.com > Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: Sabine Goubau Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:52:00 -0700 To: Randi Helene Tillung CC: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca, 'ethology' Hi Randi, I think you are not finding nor receiving a clear answer, because there isn't one. Maybe you need to look at the problem from a different angle. When in doubt, in the courts, I am pretty sure that the dog will be the loser. I sat an a quasi judicial board and I know that people making the decisions want to play it safe, and when it comes to chose between the well being of a dog and that of people, they will feel compelled to play it safe in favor of the people. Thus if the other party has any facts that can cast doubts on the safety of these dogs, and you cannot show beyond doubt that the dogs are safe, then I think the dog owners should look for a solution out of court. It seems to me that the situation has already gone too far to save it and that the people should consider moving out with their dogs. Crossing hallways with people who are afraid of the dogs and even hate them, is not a good setup, even with good dogs. Furthermore, as one friend of mine who rescues pittbulls put it: "once people decide that a dog is dangerous, the dog is not even allowed to fart." Thus, even if going to court allows them to stay with the dogs and buys them time, I don't see that a good outcome is possible. Sabine Randi Helene Tillung wrote: > What alternatives are we left with apart from letting an experienced > behaviourist evaluating the dogs? I am not trying to be cheeky, I really am > interested in everyone's opinion about this. > > In the cases I took now it was the owners who wanted their dogs tested. In > one of the instances the dog would not let us touch it on the head at the > first greeting. Stiff body and deep growling. The test could not be followed > through safely and had to be aborted. This is truly worrying behavior. And > the owner has still not decided if she/he will pay for me writing a report. > Kleenex works better for absorbing tears than the paper I will print the > report on. Now, I am wondering if I will be called in as a witness by the > police even if it was not they who ordered the test. That's an interesting > situation... > > What I am worried about with testing is that dogs that are allegedly > aggressive, cannot be tested towards children. So a dog can pass the test > nicely and still be aggressive towards children. At least I would never > bring an unfamiliar dog into my house with the children present. I would > consider that foolish even with my eldest who are not at all interested in > dogs and never would provoke them. She very seldom touches dogs and will > stop or walk around them if they are in the way. (Result of a gene > mutation??? :)) > > I remember a lecture with Rudy de Meester where he showed videos of a > children's size doll being rolled towards or past dogs during testing. He > found that some dogs could attack the doll. > > Now, will an interview with the owners and victims be enough if you do not > have a possibility to test towards children? An vice versa, is it fair to > the dog if has been thoroughly bullied by a child before it bit? That dog > could have nicely passed a test with the childrens doll. > > Yours, > > > Randi Helene Tillung > Fjellanger Dog Training Academy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Burchard [mailto:saluqi@ix.netcom.com] Sent: 22. januar 2009 05:46 > To: Applied Ethology list > Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are > considered frightening/dangerous > > Zen Trainer wrote: > > >> I did not see the video but I have seen some pretty silly temperament >> tests and I've seen some good ones poorly administered. >> >> However, I have always questioned a dogs scent ability. My old Chow >> used to bark at lion statues at the ends of people's driveways. My >> groomer had a life size cut out of John Wayne that drove several dogs >> into a fenzy. And I've seen a lot of dogs bark at their reflection in >> mirrors. I've worked with Beagles who couldn't find a piece of >> cheeseburger dropped in the grass right in fron of their noses. So, I >> don't know. >> >> If temperament testing is being done to decide life or death then I >> think it needs to be done a bit more fairly. Though I realize that >> many places testing don't have time. Our shelters here are so swamped >> with dogs that they have 3 days before they are killed. Some of them >> whether they pass the test or not. At one shelter we kill over 400 >> unwanted dogs per week. >> >> The cat thing is pretty silly but the doll is at least a first step. >> I would say eating the doll would be a bad indicator. (My test doll >> cries and has spent a lot of time in a crib with a real baby and >> usually wears a real, used wet diaper for the test.) >> >> I use a fake hand which I suppose the stick with a rubber glove >> simulates. I don't poke anyone with it but I have to say mine has >> bite marks and I'm glad it's a fake hand and not my hand. >> >> The original poster was looking for a test for the owner of pets. For >> that a CGC really is good enough for court and for a more complete >> test for an owner I would take the dog for a day or so. I can test it >> safely around cats and kids in a home setting. Tracy B Ann >> > > I'm afraid I think these things are altogether too schematic and therefore fraught with possibilities, no probabilities, of error. > > For example, I have hunting dogs whose job is to catch small agile prey > (hares). Most of them include cats in that category. Only cats they don't know, that > is. Our own cats were always perfectly safe, in the house, outside the house or > even on long walks in the desert, where they played "catch me" with the dogs. > The same dogs were also perfectly safe with our various other pets (free flying parrots, among others) and with children of all sizes down to the smallest > (both my sons grew up with them, from earliest infancy). > > Dogs can make much more differentiated discriminations than we commonly give > > them credit for. Our own cats were sacred, inviolate, indeed treated with > great affection (leading to comical situations in which kittens, which one of the > dogs had helped to rear along with their own mother, seemed at times to have a > little confusion of identity ), while "stranger" cats were treated as prey. I > don't think that sort of discrimination is even unusual - and I also don't see how > you could evaluate it in an unfamiliar animal in an unfamiliar setting in the > space of a few minutes or by some kind of standardized test. > > I'm afraid I have the impression that in most cases "temperament testing" is > > just being used as an excuse to kill dogs, mostly unnecessarily. > > John > -- > John E. Burchard, Ph.D. > Tepe Gawra Salukis > saluqi@ix.netcom.com > http://saluqi.home.netcom.com > Subject: RE: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: Zen Trainer Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 23:30:13 -0600 To: Ethics List > From: randihelene@tillung.no > > What alternatives are we left with apart from letting an experienced > behaviourist evaluating the dogs? I am not trying to be cheeky, I really am > interested in everyone's opinion about this. ******************************** T: I think Sabine is right here Randi. There is no one clear answer. Temperament tests are subjective, courts are busy and tend to side with humans. What can help is to establish a good relationship with court officers so that they trust your judgement. I also document everything I do quite thoroughly. So in court it is often an irate neighbor with kleenex vs me with an established reputation and a well organized folder. *********************************** R: > In the cases I took now it was the owners who wanted their dogs tested. In > one of the instances the dog would not let us touch it on the head at the > first greeting. Stiff body and deep growling. The test could not be followed > through safely and had to be aborted. This is truly worrying behavior. ************************************ T: I am probably missing something here. This isn't how I greet a dog and if a dog does have a problem with it's head being touched (not uncommon) that's easily worked with. *********************************** R: > the owner has still not decided if she/he will pay for me writing a report. *********************************** T: I think I may be missing something here as well. My fee is my fee. I get paid when I evaluate a dog for an owner. I do evaluations for the court for free - it's my pleasure. I like to advocate for animals. *********************************** R: > What I am worried about with testing is that dogs that are allegedly > aggressive, cannot be tested towards children. So a dog can pass the test > nicely and still be aggressive towards children. At least I would never > bring an unfamiliar dog into my house with the children present. *********************************** T: A good trainer or behaviorist familiar with testing should be able to show you how to do this safely for the dog and the child. ************************************ R: > Now, will an interview with the owners and victims be enough if you do not > have a possibility to test towards children? An vice versa, is it fair to > the dog if has been thoroughly bullied by a child before it bit? ************************************ T: Again, it's quite possible to safely test a dogs reaction to a child. I use more than one person (though I like things calm during a test). You can use a muzzle, 3 leashes, plexiglass, whatever it takes to keep the child and dog safe. The methods are endless. Is it fair for a child to bully a dog? No, of course not. But in todays world, a dog has to react to bullying without biting. That's an owners responsibility. You can either train a dog (using only positive techniques) to react well to almost all bullying or you can keep your dog out of situations where it will get bullied. A bit of both is probably the best. There are plenty of dogs who get beat, bullied and worse and don't bite. They should never have to put up with any of that but the world is run by humans. It is an owners job to keep their dog out of risky situations. This situation you describe (though I think I've missed a post or two) sounds like an owner problem. Much harder than a dog problem! ;-) Good luck! Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org Subject: Re: Relieving stress in companion animals From: Kayce Cover Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:48:02 -0500 (EST) To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Joe, From a practical perspective, I avoid feeding at a consistent time. I avoid creating ANY rigid expectation. I have heard about the idea of less exercise to lower a dog's demand for activity, and his excitement level. I don't find this matters. However, I don't allow a dog to exercise in, or rehearse, an aroused state of mind. I also see that many who work "dangerous" animals tend to keep them very well fed/fat. (I don't. I keep the animals I manage trim, in most cases.) These practices attempt to manage a critical situation (aggression/arousal) in a vague, diffuse way. An animal which is well fed/fat, may tend to stay calm, but there is no guarantee. Once he stars to arouse, I think this happened to Roy and Sigfried with the tiger. Arousal can start, and once it does, there are no safeties in place. However, if we teach the animals what arouses them and how to manage it, and set a goal of achieving and maintaining relaxation, then the animal can be constantly striving to avoid arousal and return to relaxation, even if he starts to slip at some point. The bulk of my work centers on the management of hyperarousals and sensitivities. I find the most effective (can work almost instantly, but may take a few days to see a dramatic difference) is to teach the animals to recognize and manage their own emotional states. We name the relaxed state "Easy" and he aroused state "Alert", rehearse both states, until the animal to access either, on cue. (We literally teach the animal to relax on cue, voluntarily, or arouse on cue, voluntarily.) Then we ask the animal to achieve and maintain relaxation, as we take him through cycles of increasingly intrusive/demanding challenges. We use bridges, Terminal and Intermediate, to support his successful self-management. We bypass drugs and anesthesias in many instances where many consider them essential. With fast results. Best of all, the dog is the one managing the situation, so generalization into new circumstances is fast and good. I have lots of video tape of this process, but not being in the research field... Maybe a scientist will become interested. I would love to see this process tested. Regards, Kayce Kayce Cover MSEd, BS An Sci, CABC IAABC Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com http://www.facebook.com/people/Syn-Alia-Sats/1179766268 PO Box 8788, Norfolk, VA 23503-0788 001 757 588 5967 SATS/Bridge and Target: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/bridgeandtarget2 Trainest (newbies): http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/trainest > > HI Everyone, > > > > As an assignment each year, vet students in my behaviour section must > > write a response to a question they receive about an animal > > behavioural > > problem which is asked by another student in the class, such that all > > the students are responding to a unique question. You can imagine the > > diversity of species/topics,/questions that the students are randomly > > assigned. All the questions and responses are publicly shared with > > the > > class so that they can read about topics that are of particular > > interest > > to them. Anyway, a common question would be one that involves > > "compulsive behaviours" as seen in companion animals, often "brought > > on" > > by suspicion of "anxiety/stress". A common suggested treatment is to > > provide the pet with a "consistent routine" (especially feeding at the > > same time) and more exercise. Keep in mind that the students are > > simply > > repeating what they find in the literature. They also suggest, what I > > refer to as the shot-gun treatment approach, in that they make > > multiple > > suggestions (all of which they have read in the literature), perhaps > > reasoning that surely something will work! Being the skeptical > > scientist that I am, and admittedly having done zero clinical work > > with > > companion animals, I find it all rather suspicious in that I wonder if > > there is any hard evidence to show that some of the suggestions, say > > consistently feeding the pet at the same time each day, has any > > benefit > > what so ever? Consistent time of feeding certainly doesn't change the > > incidence of stereotypies in limit-fed gestating sows. At the end of > > the day, hunger or lack of reaching satiety has more to do with the > > development of stereotypies in our farm animals than most other > > factors. > > > > Several years ago a companion animal behaviourist privately wrote to > > tell me that he successfully "treats" nearly 90% of the behaviour > > problems he sees in dogs by prescribing the owner to feed them MORE > > food > > and to exercise them LESS. He believed that more exercise might be > > detrimental in that it only served to create a more athletic dog that > > craved more exercise (and theoretically more feed) and became more > > anxious, more hungry and in need of more attention. > > > > So my question is whether we know which approach (feeding more and > > exercising less vs feeding at the same time each day, more exercise, > > etc.) is better at treating some companion animal "problems"? Are > > there any scientific studies that have specifically looked at the > > impact > > of feeding levels (i.e. limit feeding vs ad libitum) on the impact of > > behavioural disorders in dogs? Are there any scientific studies that > > have specifically looked at the impact of exercise on the incidence of > > behavioural disorders in dogs? > > > > I am not trying to pop anyone's bubble of knowledge about what you > > "know" works when treating compulsive disorders in dogs, but I do find > > students providing me with long litanies of suggested treatments for > > any > > given problem and I can not help but wonder how many of the > > "treatments" > > have been tested independently of each other to see which ones really > > work and which ones we think work, but may not be having any > > influence. > > Thanks. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Joe > > > > > > -- > > Joseph M. Stookey > > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences > > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > > University of Saskatchewan > > 52 Campus Drive > > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > > Canada S7N 5B4 > > > > Tel 306-966-7154 > > Fax 306-966-7159 > > Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: EJ Haskins Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:46:09 +1100 To: Randi Helene Tillung CC: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Some years ago now I attended a seminar given by Suzanne Hetts. During this seminar she showed a(n alarming) video of the assessment of a couple of Pit Bull Terriers accused of maiming a young girl. These dogs passed every assessment with flying colours -- they looked like charming, easy going pets. The accusers were adamant that these were the dogs involved in the attack, so finally a shelter worker agreed to go into a large crate, in the same run as the dogs were in, and pretend to be a little girl falling over -- both dogs delightedly attacked the outside of the crate -- big smiles on their faces and sometimes coming back to the camera (person, presumably) apparently for praise. Alarming because without this particular test the dogs would have been exonerated and passed as "safe". I would have accepted them like a shot as pets on the evidence of the tests they were put through before this final test. You might like to contact Suzanne Hetts. Her contact is here: http://www.animalbehaviorassociates.com/aboutus.htm I believe she has a discussion/information list. cheers, Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randi Helene Tillung" To: ; "'ethology'" Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:55 AM Subject: RE: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous > What alternatives are we left with apart from letting an experienced > behaviourist evaluating the dogs? I am not trying to be cheeky, I really am > interested in everyone's opinion about this. Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 04:01:29 -0800 (PST) To: EJ Haskins , applied-ethology@usask.ca I don't have any degrees or certificates. Just twenty two years of experience with captive coyotes and wolves. I am amazed that people are so surprised at the predator-prey behavior that exists in all dogs toward children. A small child who falls over or lays down on the floor and cries, that may also be.rolling around, kicking and throwing their arms, that child may be seen as wounded prey. What does a coyote, wolf, or fox do with wounded prey? They kill it! Doesn't this predator-prey response exist in all canids. Some, more than others? No dog is safe around children, under these circumstances. You never know when this response may be triggered or what may trigger it. That is why wolf hybrids are so extremly dangerous around children. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue --- On Thu, 1/29/09, EJ Haskins wrote: From: EJ Haskins Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous To: "Randi Helene Tillung" Cc: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 2:46 AM Some years ago now I attended a seminar given by Suzanne Hetts. During this seminar she showed a(n alarming) video of the assessment of a couple of Pit Bull Terriers accused of maiming a young girl. These dogs passed every assessment with flying colours -- they looked like charming, easy going pets. The accusers were adamant that these were the dogs involved in the attack, so finally a shelter worker agreed to go into a large crate, in the same run as the dogs were in, and pretend to be a little girl falling over -- both dogs delightedly attacked the outside of the crate -- big smiles on their faces and sometimes coming back to the camera (person, presumably) apparently for praise. Alarming because without this particular test the dogs would have been exonerated and passed as "safe". I would have accepted them like a shot as pets on the evidence of the tests they were put through before this final test. You might like to contact Suzanne Hetts. Her contact is here: http://www.animalbehaviorassociates.com/aboutus.htm I believe she has a discussion/information list. cheers, Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randi Helene Tillung" To: ; "'ethology'" Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:55 AM Subject: RE: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous > What alternatives are we left with apart from letting an experienced > behaviourist evaluating the dogs? I am not trying to be cheeky, I really am > interested in everyone's opinion about this. Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: Kayce Cover Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:16:25 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca While I don't think that dogs and children should be left unsupervised, dogs can certainly learn to withstand the temptation to attack fallen, running and screaming things, including children. But, they need a chance to learn these skills before being challenged without skills or guidance. I believe all dogs, not just 'high risk dogs' should be guided to acquire these skills. Regards, Kayce > > I don't have any degrees or certificates. Just twenty two years of > > experience with captive coyotes and wolves. I am amazed that people > > are so surprised at the predator-prey behavior that exists in all dogs > > toward children. A small child who falls over or lays down on the > > floor and cries, that may also be.rolling around, kicking and throwing > > their arms, that child may be seen as wounded prey. > > What does a coyote, wolf, or fox do with wounded prey? They kill it! > > Doesn't this predator-prey response exist in all canids. Some, more > > than others? No dog is safe around children, under these > > circumstances. You never know when this response may be triggered or > > what may trigger it. That is why wolf hybrids are so extremly > > dangerous around children. > > CeAnn Kayce Cover MSEd, BS An Sci, CABC IAABC Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com http://www.facebook.com/people/Syn-Alia-Sats/1179766268 PO Box 8788, Norfolk, VA 23503-0788 001 757 588 5967 SATS/Bridge and Target: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/bridgeandtarget2 Trainest (newbies): http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/trainest Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: Tricia Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 07:33:47 -0800 To: EJ Haskins , Randi Helene Tillung CC: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sometimes is it wise to go with the history and not rely solely on testing. If they had that history from the dogs, they had a responsibility to put other dogs out into the community, not these ones. Tricia Breen ----- Original Message ----- From: "EJ Haskins" To: "Randi Helene Tillung" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:46 PM Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous > Some years ago now I attended a seminar given by Suzanne Hetts. > > During this seminar she showed a(n alarming) video of the assessment of a couple of Pit Bull Terriers accused of maiming a young girl. > > These dogs passed every assessment with flying colours -- they looked like charming, easy going pets. > > The accusers were adamant that these were the dogs involved in the attack, so finally a shelter worker agreed to go into a large crate, in the same run as the dogs were in, and pretend to be a little girl falling over -- both dogs delightedly attacked the outside of the crate -- big smiles on their faces and sometimes coming back to the camera (person, presumably) apparently for praise. > > Alarming because without this particular test the dogs would have been exonerated and passed as "safe". I would have accepted them like a shot as pets on the evidence of the tests they were put through before this final test. > > You might like to contact Suzanne Hetts. > > Her contact is here: > http://www.animalbehaviorassociates.com/aboutus.htm > > I believe she has a discussion/information list. > > cheers, > > Jenny H > Coffs Australia > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randi Helene Tillung" > To: ; "'ethology'" > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:55 AM > Subject: RE: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous > > >> What alternatives are we left with apart from letting an experienced >> behaviourist evaluating the dogs? I am not trying to be cheeky, I really am >> interested in everyone's opinion about this. > Subject: dogs managing their own emotions From: Kayce Cover Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:47:07 -0500 (EST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Great point. This is exactly why the managemnt must be done by the animal. He KNOWS when he is feeling an urge, and, if motivated and skilled, can best manage the situation. This is a very important skill that all dogs that are really good at their jobs learn to do. They must split focus at all times. They have a job (e.g., protection), or a desire (e.g., want to grab prey), and they LOVE to get into those activities and surrender to the adrenaline/dopamine. But they can't. They must be ready to come off at the handler's cue, or alter their actions at the sight of a snake, or shut down entirely if to pursue is too risky..... so they can all do it, it's just a question of building their skills and motivation. And we have very good ways to do that. We do it all the time. And we do just about assume that everything is a trigger, and train for many specifically, but the animal with generalize to many more, without additional training. Once he internalizes this way of being, he does the work, and the trainer assists him - mostly by giving information and encouragement. ("kid coming, easy, gggggggg GOOD!" as the kid passes, for example.) Coyotes would be more difficult than dogs, but can probably do it as well, although many exotics have less ability to suppress spontaneous urges than domestics do - to whit, Sapolsky's descriptions of the limitations of baboon coalitions. Regards, Kayce > > Wouldn't you have to plan for every trigger and how is a normal > > person, in a home, with a dog, going to do that? Even with my > > observing coyotes 24 hrs a day, I constantly see new triggers that I > > have to watch for. I still miss some, even after all of these years. > > I learned this year, that even a change of medication can trigger a > > dominance interaction. > > Animals are so adept at testing for vulnerability. And recognizing > > that vulnerability. > > CeAnn > > Subject: Re: Validated method for temperatment testing of dogs that are considered frightening/dangerous From: John Burchard Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:41:48 -0800 To: Cecilia Lambert , EJ Haskins , applied-ethology@usask.ca Cecilia Lambert wrote: > I don't have any degrees or certificates. Just twenty two years of > experience with captive coyotes and wolves. I am amazed that people > are so surprised at the predator-prey behavior that exists in all > dogs toward children. A small child who falls over or lays down on > the floor and cries, that may also be.rolling around, kicking and > throwing their arms, that child may be seen as wounded prey. > What does a coyote, wolf, or fox do with wounded prey? They kill it! > Doesn't this predator-prey response exist in all canids. Some, more > than others? No dog is safe around children, under these > circumstances. You never know when this response may be triggered or > what may trigger it. That is why wolf hybrids are so extremly > dangerous around children. If I understand this correctly, you are saying that no dog is safe around children. My own experience, of more than 70 years, suggests that such is not the case. John -- John E. Burchard, Ph.D. Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: EJ Haskins Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:59:49 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca From: "Kayce Cover" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 2:47 AM > Great point. This is exactly why the managemnt must be done by the > animal. >> Wouldn't you have to plan for every trigger and how is a normal person, >> in a home, with a dog, going to do that? Even with my observing coyotes >> 24 hrs a day, I constantly see new triggers that I have to watch for. I >> still miss some, even after all of these years. >> I learned this year, that even a change of medication can trigger >> adominance interaction. >> Animals are so adept at testing for vulnerability. And recognizing that >> vulnerability. >> CeAnn We seem (on the open list) to have missed the original of this post. CeAnn, I have enormous respect for you and have enjoyed many (maybe all?) of your posts in the past, BUT We are talking here of domestic dogs -- NOT wolves, wolf hybrids, coyotes, coyote hybrids or other non-domesticated canids. Domestic dogs have been selected for thousands of years to fit in with ,and identify with, human society. We have, through selective breeding manipulated their predatory behaviour -- to make them not only useful to us, but SAFE. For instance, a Border Collie's predatory instinct is attenuated (is that the word I want?) at the chase and drive (which is why they are in so m uch trouble for tearing children's clothing, or nipping running children. Kelpies' predatory behaviour is attenuated even earlier in the predatory sequence -- which is why the barmy dogs will drop a ball at *ANYBODY'S* feet and then proceed to 'eye' it until it moves :-) (Sorry I have Kelpies -- lovely, but barmy :-) German Shepherds (despite what the current lot of breeders/show people say, were bred to live with sheep and *protect* them from wolves -- which is why German Shepherds tend to be highly dog aggressive, without good dog-dog socialisation. They tend to be non-aggressive to humans -- Von Stephanitz chose them as they were very sensitive to human interaction and could be reliably called OFF. It probably explains the dog aggression I have heard about recently re Maremmas and similar breeds. As regards other breeds Retrievers carry, Pointers point, Duck Tolling Retrievers swim, etc. With such dogs were are NOT fighting against inherent predatory behaviour to keep them safe around humans. Humans are their own pack -- not prey. Most of them need to be *taught* to attack humans, rather than the other way around. Terriers, I have more problem with. Their predatory drive is not attenuated -- they tend to have been selected for killing. Which is probably why most terriers kept as pets tend to be small. Few breeds are instinctively aggressive to humans. I understand that some of the breeds proscribed in Australia, were actually developed in the Americas for 'slave capture'. I have read of the use of dogs by Pizarro and Cortez to "subdue" the natives of the countries they invaded. Possibly these South American Breeds are descendants of these dogs? And IF so, and IF they are still being bred to attack humans, then they certainly are not dogs that should be being kept as pet dogs -- their retained instincts I could see as making them still extremely dangerous. BUT most pet dogs today are descended from dogs selected for thousands of years to be non-aggressive to humans. And therefore we are NOT fighting natural inclination. All we should need to do, as "domestic" dogs owners, is rear our pups within our human society, introducing them to humans of all ages when they are young. We shouldn't need to be too worried about 'predatory triggers', because most of our dogs will normally want to chase of carry the ball :-) Jenny H Coffs Australia Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: EJ Haskins Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 21:44:43 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >>I am amazed that people are so surprised at the predator-prey behavior that exists in all dogs toward children. A small child who falls over or lays down on the floor and cries, that may also be.rolling around, kicking and throwing their arms, that child may be seen as wounded prey. What does a coyote, wolf, or fox do with wounded prey? They kill it! Doesn't this predator-prey response exist in all canids. Some, more than others? No dog is safe around children, under these circumstances. >> I dunno. This attitude really worries me, It is people thinking that dogs are slavering wild beats of prey who will attack anything moving that is anathema to the dog owning/training fraternity (sorority?). It is this attitude that leads to increasing bans on dog ownership and restrictions on where dogs may be taken in public, These restrictions in turn lead to much poorer socialisation of pet dogs and thus actually increase the danger of dog attacks. As far as slavering wild beats who will see a child as prey: Coyotes, foxes, wolves maybe. Dingoes possibly but not necessarily. Domestic dogs are a highly social species that have evolved alongside modern humans. You could almost say that we have evolved together as commensal or symbiotic species. I can't think of any human society that has not possessed dogs (including the ancient Hebrews). See Jonica Newby "The Animal Attraction: Humans and their animals companions" previously published as "Pact for Survival" . To me a far better title. See also don Morris's appendix in Training and Working Dogs" Scott Lithgow. Or Michael Fox "Integrative development of Brain and behaviour in the Dog" 1971 which Morris uses as a reference. Don't forget The Domestic Dog: Its Evolution, Behaviour and Interactions with People (Paperback) by James Serpell (Editor) I have another book on the topic waiting to be read but can't find it :-( but there is a plethora of articles available on the topic in Google. I just searched -- dog human evolution -- and got 2,490,000 hits. including: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070302082518.htm http://seedmagazine.com/news/2006/07/the_humaninfluenced_evolution.php Another Google search for -- "domestic dog" selection predatory -- brought up 16.400 hits, including: http://www.veterinaria.uchile.cl/publicacion/congresoxi/prafesional/am/21.doc. "The Process of Domestication on the Cat and the Dog, with Regard to Companion Animal/Human Interrealation" Peter Neville http://www.nonlineardogs.com/100MostSillyPart1.html "Myths About the Dog's origin and Nature" Alexandra Semyonova http://www.responsibledog.net/evolution_domestication.html "The Evolution and Domestication of the Dog" Joyce D. Kesling Not to mention that you lucky-ducks in academia will be able to source the academic publications and original research re this topic. Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour NSW Australia Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 05:41:56 -0800 (PST) To: EJ Haskins , applied-ethology@usask.ca Talk about getting off topic. I certainly don't see coyotes and wolves as you see them. How did my short statement draw such ire from you? To ignore innate behaviors that might still exist in some dogs, if the right trigger is presented, seems to me to be very dangerous for children. I don't think you can test for those triggers with a doll or a fake hand. A dog chained in a yard can become very territorial and when that dog attacks a child who runs through the yard and falls in front of the dog and is then attacked, everyone says, "I don't know why that happened. He has never attacked anyone before." Territorial behavior is innate and just waiting to be triggered. It is people thinking that dogs are slavering wild beats of prey who will attack anything moving that is anathema to the dog owning/training fraternity (sorority?). It is this attitude that leads to increasing bans on dog ownership and restrictions on where dogs may be taken in public, These restrictions in turn lead to much poorer socialisation of pet dogs and thus actually increase the danger of dog attacks. As far as slavering wild beats who will see a child as prey: Coyotes, foxes, wolves maybe. Dingoes possibly but not necessarily. CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue --- On Fri, 1/30/09, EJ Haskins wrote: From: EJ Haskins Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 5:44 AM >>I am amazed that people are so surprised at the predator-prey behavior that exists in all dogs toward children. A small child who falls over or lays down on the floor and cries, that may also be.rolling around, kicking and throwing their arms, that child may be seen as wounded prey. What does a coyote, wolf, or fox do with wounded prey? They kill it! Doesn't this predator-prey response exist in all canids. Some, more than others? No dog is safe around children, under these circumstances. >> I dunno. This attitude really worries me, It is people thinking that dogs are slavering wild beats of prey who will attack anything moving that is anathema to the dog owning/training fraternity (sorority?). It is this attitude that leads to increasing bans on dog ownership and restrictions on where dogs may be taken in public, These restrictions in turn lead to much poorer socialisation of pet dogs and thus actually increase the danger of dog attacks. As far as slavering wild beats who will see a child as prey: Coyotes, foxes, wolves maybe. Dingoes possibly but not necessarily. Domestic dogs are a highly social species that have evolved alongside modern humans. You could almost say that we have evolved together as commensal or symbiotic species. I can't think of any human society that has not possessed dogs (including the ancient Hebrews). See Jonica Newby "The Animal Attraction: Humans and their animals companions" previously published as "Pact for Survival" . To me a far better title. See also don Morris's appendix in Training and Working Dogs" Scott Lithgow. Or Michael Fox "Integrative development of Brain and behaviour in the Dog" 1971 which Morris uses as a reference. Don't forget The Domestic Dog: Its Evolution, Behaviour and Interactions with People (Paperback) by James Serpell (Editor) I have another book on the topic waiting to be read but can't find it :-( but there is a plethora of articles available on the topic in Google. I just searched -- dog human evolution -- and got 2,490,000 hits. including: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070302082518.htm http://seedmagazine.com/news/2006/07/the_humaninfluenced_evolution.php Another Google search for -- "domestic dog" selection predatory -- brought up 16.400 hits, including: http://www.veterinaria.uchile.cl/publicacion/congresoxi/prafesional/am/21.doc. "The Process of Domestication on the Cat and the Dog, with Regard to Companion Animal/Human Interrealation" Peter Neville http://www.nonlineardogs.com/100MostSillyPart1.html "Myths About the Dog's origin and Nature" Alexandra Semyonova http://www.responsibledog.net/evolution_domestication.html "The Evolution and Domestication of the Dog" Joyce D. Kesling Not to mention that you lucky-ducks in academia will be able to source the academic publications and original research re this topic. Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour NSW Australia Subject: Dog bite stats From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 06:26:01 -0800 (PST) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Dog bite stats from Dr. Polsky's site. This is really scary. You get two coyote bites in California and the whole world goes crazy. banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com>View contact details To: "CeAnn Lambert" Dog Bite Statistics Complied by dog bite legal expert, Richard H. Polsky, Ph.D., CAAB richardhpolsky@mac.com In the last several years a surfeit of statistical informaton about dog bites have been generated by epidemiologists. This information has become widely disseminated on the internet, partially in an attempt to lessen the extent of the problem through education and increased public awareness about the circumstances and the kind of dogs known to be associated with attacks on people. Collecting dog bite statistics is certainly an important and valid area of public health inquiry: the frequency of dog bites is high and the emotional and physical damage inflicted onto a human, particularly a child, from an attack by a dog can be great. A better understanding of the epidemiology of dog bites thru description with statistics may help in the prevention of this widespread phenomenon. The information presented below has been gathered from numerous sources, many of which include news reports on the internet. The reader should assumed the information below is accurate, although no validation has been made by this author. Facts & Stats about Dog Bites & Dog Aggression There are approximately 4.5 million reported dog bites annually in the United States (nearly 2% of the American population). The majority of dog bites are never reported to local authorities. 40% of American dog owners acquired pets primarily for protection-including German shepherds, Rottweilers, mastiffs and Doberman pinschers. (Source: New York Times, 2/26/01) Nationwide, U.S. Postal Service carriers suffered 3,423 dog attacks and bites in 2003. According to the American Medical Association, dog bites are the second leading cause of childhood injury, surpassing playground accidents. Dog bites to people of the male gender are approximately two times greater than the incidence involving females. Dogs that are licensed with an identifiable owner are implicated in the vast majority of dog bites (compared with strays). Dogs not known to the victim account for approximately 10 - 20% of all reported dog bites. Dog between one and five years are involved in more dog bite incidences than dogs older than 6 years. Male dogs are more frequently involved when compared with female dogs. Mixed breeds and not pure bred dogs are the type of dog most often involved in inflicting bites to people. The pure-bred dogs most often involved are German shepherds and Chow chows. The list of breeds most involved in both bite injuries and fatalities changes from year to year and from one area of the country to another, depending on the popularity of the breed. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention document that a chained dog is 2.8 times more likely to bite than an unchained dog. Click here for a news story about a mauling of a 4 year old child by a chained pit bull Canines not spayed or neutered are three times more likely to bite than sterilized ones. Of the estimated 4.7 million people who were bitten by dogs in 1994, 800,000 sought medical care. Of these, 332,000 needed treatment in emergency rooms, and 6,000 were hospitalized. The average hospital stay for a dog-bite injury was 3.6 days. Emergency room costs for dog bite victims in the United States was about $102 million in 1994, and overall direct medical costs was about $165 million. The majority of dog bites to adult humans are inflicted to the lower extremities followed by bites to the upper extremities including the head, face and neck. For children, 77% of dog bite injuries are to facial areas. According to the Insurance Information Institute, dog bites accounted for about one-quarter of all claims on homeowner's insurance, costing more than $321 million in 2003. In 2002, the latest year for which numbers are available, the average claim for a dog bite was $16,600. Dog attacks account for one-third of all liability claims on homeowners' insurance policies. According to the Western Insurance Information Service, the insurance industry paid out more than $1 billion in dog-bite claims in 1998 alone. From 1979 to 1996, dog attacks resulted in more than 300 human dog bite related deaths in the United States. Most of the victims were children. Approximately 20 people die every year as a result of a dog attack in the United States. By far, the majority of the victims are children. In the two year period from 1997 to 1998, twenty-seven people died as a result of dog bite attacks (18 in 1997, and 9 in 1998). Annually in the United States there are approximately 20 human fatalities directly resulting from a dog attack; this number is miniscule compared with human fatalities caused by gunshot (approximately 12,000 annually), accidents (approximately 100,000 annually) or health related disease processes (click here for table) (Click here for commentary on this subject) The breeds most often involved in fatal attacks are Rottweilers and Pit bulls. In the United States, pit bulls make up one to three per cent of the overall dog population and cause more than 50 per cent of serious attacks. Of the 27 people who died as a result of dog bite attacks in 1997 and 1998, 67% involved unrestrained dogs on the owner's property; 19% involved unrestrained dogs off the owner's property; 11% involved restrained dogs on the owner's property; and 4% involved a restrained dog off the owner's property. Of the 27 people who died as a result of dog bite attacks during 1997 and 1998, 67% involved an attack by one dog; 19% involved an attack by two dogs; and 15% involved an attack by 3 or more dogs. From 1979 to 1998, at least 25 breeds of dogs have been involved in bite related deaths. Pit Bulls and Rottweilers were involved in more than 50 percent of these incidences. In a study reported by a retired professor from California State University at Chino, Robert Plum, it was found that one dog in 55 will bite someone seriously during the course of a year. With respect to breed differences in the tendency to inflict serious injury, Plumb estimates that when a pit bull bites a human, one in 16 (e.g. 1/16) will inflict serious injury; this contrasts with a ratio of 1/296 Dobermans, and 1/156 German shepherds. Dog Bite Statistics from: Texas, 1997, 1998; Australia (pdf file); The Netherlands (pdf file), New Zealand, State of Nevada (USA) (pdf file) CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: dogs and kids From: Barbara Shumannfang Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:33:46 -0500 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Hi all, It has been my experience that there are observable behaviors ('warning signs,' if you will) that a dog is likely to show aggression towards a child. There are different behaviors altogether that precede predatory behavior toward a child or an infant (exceptionally rare). I list these on my website for anyone interested, and discuss them in my prenatal classes for dog-owners. My position is that using sensible prevention/management strategies, teaching the dog to welcome typical child behaviors, and teaching the child how best to behave around dogs is an effective way to prevent dog bites (or worse) to children. I have heard people say that "it just came out of the blue"' or the dog had "never before been aggressive." In each of the instances I have heard this claim, the issue really was lack of awareness of precursor behaviors (or prevention and training strategies), or lack of adequate history taken regarding the incident (i.e. victim's family too traumatized to provide history, attorney not trained to ask the right questions). Barbara -- Barbara Shumannfang, CPDT Author of "Happy Kids, Happy Dogs" Top Notch Dog, LLC www.topnotchdog.com (919) 493-4560 Subject: dogs and kids From: lihaug@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:07:36 -0500 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca True predatory responses to children from dogs are relatively uncommon and IME they are always accompanied by a history of other predatory behaviors. Dogs that show predatory behavior toward animals do not in any automatically also similar behavior toward children. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 fax www.texasvetbehavior.com LIhaug@aol.com APDT #692, IAABC Which stars will make the biggest headlines in 2009? Get Hollywood news, celebrity photos and more with the PopEater Toolbar. Subject: Re: dogs and kids From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:59:27 -0500 (EST) To: LIHaug@aol.com, applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca True predatory responses to children from dogs are relatively uncommon and IME they are always accompanied by a history of other predatory behaviors. Dogs that show predatory behavior toward animals do not in any automatically also similar behavior toward children. I agree. In broad terms both affective aggression and predatory behaviour are control-related activities, but they are completely different in terms of functional purpose, evolutionary and neurobiological origins. Then we have the underlying emotional factors, e.g. irritability, frustration and fear. These mental and physiological states are under the influence of classical conditioning. Where wolves or feral dogs have autonomy of movement, the restrictive confinement of the domestic dog germinates increased aggression. Such artificial constraints inhibit the ability to move freely when threatened, where the dog may feel trapped, vulnerable, frustrated and agitated. This strained intimacy erodes the options normally employed by dogs in negotiating territorial intrusions, leaving them with little choice but defending what little territorial space that is left. Depending on the breed it is then stereotyped as ‘Predatory Aggression’ a terminology that is in itself controversial. Nobody can say that there is a real agonistic behaviour when a dog is performing a predatory motor pattern. Many frustrated dogs also seem to have a lower threshold for aggression, often jumping over fences or digging holes in attempts to initiate an attack. Regretfully, this has often been the result of attack on children. Children playing in view of a restrained or fenced dog are a source of canine agitation. These incidents are often aggravated when children taunt or tease the dog in close proximity of the barrier. In one study, pet-related mortalities showed that 28% of incidents resulted in children approaching a chained dog. A further 38% occurred by the dog escaping a fence or other form of barrier restraint. A strong association exists between territorial aggression and fear. Fearful dogs are frequently nervous and reactive during anticipated challenges. These dogs are probably more concerned about defending themselves rather than their territory, although more often the sequence starts with an invasion of territory, bringing into play the “critical distance”, so name by Heidiger. Gordon Butcher UK Subject: RE: dogs and kids From: Sue Bowers Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:20:12 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca With respect to dogs' dangerousness and breed statistics... The Delise book (Fatal Dog Attacks) may well be the best reference for anyone seriously interested in dog bite prevention. Unlike most writings, which sensationalize the "human interest" component, this one actually delves into the animal's environment and any mistakes made by owner and/or victim. It gives a very clear picture of what went wrong, and there is never any need to even bring breed into it. The behaviour of Canis lupis is essentially the same across the board, as far as reasons for biting are concerned. (fear, dominance, resource guarding, etc) Breakdowns by breed do not tell us much, except to point out the obvious: that some dogs are larger and stronger than others, and that undesirable people have breed preferences. :-/ I would argue that all dog bites are motivated by the same small pool of underlying reasons. As Barbara mentioned, in every dog bite case where the details are known, there were prior warning signs of the potential danger, and the bite could have been avoided. (Remember that even a nasty dog is not a bite risk when properly contained!) Most dog bite cases involved glaring errors on the part of the owners...things such as leaving an intact female pitbull nursing her pups, chained in an unfenced yard, where a neighbor boy who wandered by & attempted to pet her &/or the pups was subsequently disemboweled. (This one happened in a town near me. The child lived. The town subsequently banned pitbull terriers, while still allowing chained, intact dogs of other breeds to interact continuously with the public. Missing the point?) I won't argue that some dogs do far more damage than others, but I *will* argue that any member of Canis lupus (I can't speak for coyotes ) can be raised and kept safely. In the rare event of a physically (physiologically?) defective canid, euthanasia would be the only option...and that option should be the obvious choice long before a fatality occurs. We can try to make dogs idiot-proof, and move towards Sternberg's world of only "bland natured, under 35# dogs"...or we can keep a variety of full featured dogs, and raise the bar for the owners. I know which I would prefer. ~Sue! From: Barbara Shumannfang [mailto:barbara@topnotchdog.com] I have heard people say that "it just came out of the blue"' or the dog had "never before been aggressive." In each of the instances I have heard this claim, the issue really was lack of awareness of precursor behaviors (or prevention and training strategies), or lack of adequate history taken regarding the incident (i.e. victim's family too traumatized to provide history, attorney not trained to ask the right questions). Subject: Re: dogs and kids From: lihaug@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:40:07 -0500 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca but I *will* argue that any member of Canis lupus (I can't speak for coyotes ) can be raised and kept safely. In the rare event of a physically (physiologically?) defective canid, euthanasia would be the only option...and >> I have to debate on both of these points. given the complicated relationship between genetics and the environment, I think it is simplistic to say that ANY (and every?) dog can ge raised and kept safely. Maybe that depends on the definition of "kept" and "safely". Plenty of people "do everything right" when they raise their puppies and their dog still grows up to develop some type of problematic aggressive response. we don't live in a controlled lab setting, and we can't control everything our dogs are exposed to -- and therefore we can't control every reinforcement the dog gets. This puts *too* much of a burden on the owner. Additionally, there are plenty of dogs with "defective" physiologies that CAN be rehabilitaed enough that they can live relatively normal lives with the right supervision and training. Lore I. Haug, DVM, MS, DACVB, CPDT, CABC Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 2627 Cordes Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77479 281-980-3737 281-313-1849 fax www.texasvetbehavior.com LIhaug@aol.com APDT #692, IAABC Which stars will make the biggest headlines in 2009? Get Hollywood news, celebrity photos and more with the PopEater Toolbar. Subject: RE: dogs and kids From: Sue Bowers Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:51:55 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Arguably, if the dog still grows to be problematic, despite our best efforts, and we love him and want to keep him...then we erect a sturdy fence--possibly with a secondary perimeter fence--where he is kept when not under our direct control. ;-) Hence, he would be "kept safely" by my definition...although you are probably correct in that I made it somewhat simplistic for arguments' sake. ~Sue! From: lihaug@aol.com [mailto:lihaug@aol.com] I think it is simplistic to say that ANY (and every?) dog can ge raised and kept safely. Maybe that depends on the definition of "kept" and "safely". Plenty of people "do everything right" when they raise their puppies and their dog still grows up to develop some type of problematic aggressive response. we don't live in a controlled lab setting, and we can't control everything our dogs are exposed to -- and therefore we can't control every reinforcement the dog gets. This puts *too* much of a burden on the owner. Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: EJ Haskins Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 14:42:52 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Well, I suppose I am. I am saying that domestic dogs ARE different to wolves and coyotes. And I gave what I considered reasonable references. Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ; EJ Haskins Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 10:29 PM Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions Are you saying that the innate behaviors that are in the wild canids, do not exist in domestic dogs? I think that they do and it just needs the right trigger to bring them to the surface. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: EJ Haskins Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 14:51:11 +1100 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca I am sorry that you interpret my disagreeing with you as ire. Put it down as more like disappointment that someone who I thought was knowledgeable seems not to know very much about ordinary domestic dogs :-( Yes, certainly SOME dogs can have easily aroused prey behaviour to children. But that is no more a reason the be afraid of dogs and expect every dog to have such triggers, than it is to be afraid of every man sexually abusing his daughters. We cannot continue to operate as a functional society if we remain afraid of every possible scenario. Best to worry about the *probably* scenarios. Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: EJ Haskins ; applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 12:41 AM Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions Talk about getting off topic. I certainly don't see coyotes and wolves as you see them. How did my short statement draw such ire from you? Subject: Statistics From: EJ Haskins Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 16:05:02 +1100 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Remembering that there are Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics, the study of statistics compiled on certain things an be very interesting. Firstly, you must understand exactly WHAT was measured. For instance, if HALF the number of reported dog bites in any given time/area was caused by Egyptian Truffle Dogs, but then you discover that 80% percent of the dogs in that area at than time were Egyptian Truffle Dogs, you could probably assume that the breed is not particularly aggressive -- compared to whatever other breeds were present, that is. If you find that Peruvian Guinea Pig hounds, compared to any other breed, account for more bites that present at hospitals for treatment, then you might assume that these hounds are more dangerous than other breeds -- although it COULD be because there had just been a newspaper campaign trying to get Peruvian Guinea Pig Hounds banned, so people were more afraid of them and more likely to report a bite from one. Then you might need to reconsider. Or you might find that suddenly the Newspapers are full of alarming stories about Dog Attacks, and then realise that the big company ronEn was going broke and the directors were trying to do their best to distract the public's attention from them while they tried to get their finds out of the country and so were feeding alarmist but unrelated stories to the press (and we all know that never happens!!). Closer consideration might reveal that in fact the number of dog attacks during this period were actually lower than normal. I have been, idly collecting stories about accidental deaths caused by animals other than domestic dogs. Bees, wasps, cattle, horses and snakes feature largely. Then iatrogenic deaths of children in hospital take a large toll, as well. Not least because of the profligate use of paracetamol. Paracetamol administered by parents also features quite high in the statistics for child deaths or hospital admissions. MUCH higher than dog related injuries. I've just looked up some statistics on child deaths in Australia. (Googled -- statistics child death. I did NOT exclude anything. No looking specifically for anything -- not iatrogenic, animals, step parents, fluoridated water, etc -- either. Surprise, dogs didn't get a mention!! http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4398.0Main+Features11982%20to%201996?OpenDocument http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200111/s418456.htm http://www.aifs.gov.au/nch/pubs/sheets/rs4/rs4.html http://www.ocsc.vic.gov.au/downloads/vcdrc/ar_vcdrc_2002.pdf http://www.burnfoundation.org.au/Content_Common/pg-Statistics.seo http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24665711-952,00.html http://www.bananasinpyjamas.com/news/stories/2008/11/24/2427970.htm Excerpt "This morning's figures from the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics showed 29 women and children were murdered in domestic incidents between July last year and June this year, six above the average for the past 10 years." Nov 2008 and these one from the US.Still not a mention of dogs! http://www.childdeathreview.org/nationalchildmortalitydata.htm http://devbehavpeds.ouhsc.edu/assets/pdf/CPT/Investigation%20&%20Review%20of%20child%20deaths.pdf It seems like we should have our sights set on cars (and their drivers, naturally), parents and, in Australia, swimming pools. Maybe our kids would be safer if we filled in the pool and bought them a dog :-) Cheers, Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour Australia Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 03:18:19 -0500 (EST) To: ejhaskins@bigpond.com, applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Yes, certainly SOME dogs can have easily aroused prey behaviour to children. But that is no more a reason the be afraid of dogs and expect every dog to have such triggers, than it is to be afraid of every man sexually abusing his daughters. I think what is being left out here is the intrinsic influence of socialisation during the first 14 weeks of a domestic dog’s life and during the juvenile stages. In some cases you have to explore the family dynamics in relation to the dogs behaviour within that setting. You cannot even begin to label an aggressive attack without knowing a complete history of the dog. There are many contributory factors that underpin an attack on a child or adult. ‘Predatory attacks’ as a heading is just too vague. Yes, there seems to be some breeds more predisposed to these motor patterns being triggered by children i.e. the boarder collie etc, but even then it’s unwise to stereotype. In scientific terms ‘Predatory’ attacks is rarely used as a single definition when examining attacks on humans, as it’s so easy to make “assumptions”. Gordon Butcher UK Subject: wolves and coyotes and dogs, Oh My From: Sue Bowers Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 07:02:17 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca This topic brought up something I have wondered about in the past. Perhaps someone here could direct me... Is anyone aware of any studies in which a pack of domestic dogs was raised, from early puppyhood, in an outdoor enclosure...free-fed and accustomed to humans, but not broadly socialised, leash trained, or otherwise trained in obedience or manners? Preferably this would be "high end" domestic dogs, such as GSDs, border collies, Siberians, malamutes, Akitas...but any study would be of interest. Thanks, ~Sue! Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: Cecilia Lambert Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 04:34:09 -0800 (PST) To: EJ Haskins CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca I have never claimed to be a dog trainer. I am interested in innate behaviors in wild canids. I have four dogs. My dogs do not have to do tricks for their food, be aware of my every command or ever be afraid that I may punish them in any way. My dogs help to socialize coyotes. I am always surprised at how quick my dogs are to respond to the behavioral needs of coyote puppies. How quick they are to learn that coyote puppies need different responses than dog puppies. My dogs have never hurt a coyote puppy, yet there are times when there are fights as the coyotes puppies get to be five to six months old. However, those fights are ritualized just like a normal fight for coyotes. The dogs know how to give the correct signal to the coyote, to turn off the aggression, effectivlely saying. I won't hurt you, we don't have to continue this interaction. My dogs speak coyote. Did the dogs learn these innate signals over the years, or are these signals repressed in the dogs and only come to the forefront when triggered by the coyote pups? CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org Please visit our gift shop @ www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue --- On Fri, 1/30/09, EJ Haskins wrote: From: EJ Haskins Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 10:51 PM I am sorry that you interpret my disagreeing with you as ire. Put it down as more like disappointment that someone who I thought was knowledgeable seems not to know very much about ordinary domestic dogs :-( Yes, certainly SOME dogs can have easily aroused prey behaviour to children. But that is no more a reason the be afraid of dogs and expect every dog to have such triggers, than it is to be afraid of every man sexually abusing his daughters. We cannot continue to operate as a functional society if we remain afraid of every possible scenario. Best to worry about the *probably* scenarios. Jenny H Coffs Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: EJ Haskins ; applied-ethology@usask.ca Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 12:41 AM Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions Talk about getting off topic. I certainly don't see coyotes and wolves as you see them. How did my short statement draw such ire from you? Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 08:24:57 -0500 (EST) To: ceannicrc@yahoo.com, ejhaskins@bigpond.com CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi All Canids employ similar posturing as an important modulatory signals to postpone or break off agonistic conflict. I'm sure you have watched wolves/hybrids adopt the same interactive posturing as you would observe an any domestic litter. So, I would assume that your domestic dog has not learned to communicate in coyote as the 'language' is the same. Even Interspecies relationships are not uncommon, just recently there was an article where a rescued elephant developed a strong relationship with a terrier. There has been some trials of bringing up GSD pups and wolf cubs in the same litter and hand rearing. Interestingly enough both Canids presented the same behavioural traits until 16 weeks, then the differences began to appear. Regards Gordon Butcher UK Subject: RE: dogs managing their own emotions From: Sue Bowers Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 08:43:20 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca This is something I am interested in, as well...only from a slightly different perspective. I have done the opposite with my guys--taken animals of high wolf content and required that they learn self-control, offer requested behaviours in exchange for things they want, and in general display "manners" as expected of typical domestic dogs. This has resulted in near-wolves who have at least basic obedience skills, can be taken to the vet and examined without issue like dogs, and are completely trustworthy without any special "human behaviours" such as wearing the same clothing every day, not lying down in the enclosure, not eating food in front of them, and so on. I am fascinated by innate behaviours (i.e. "Square One", the starting point at birth), but also in the modification of these behaviours. The typical pattern for the raising of domestic dogs, as I see it, compensates for most innate behaviours and redirects them (or in some cases, represses them) in ways that suit our lifestyles. What little I have seen of domestic dogs--and also 'very nearly domestic dogs'--that were not given much direction in their upbringing, shows a lot of innate behaviour that is considered "expected" in wolves, and "not expected" in domestic dogs. The behaviour modification patterns used to "reprogram" domestic dogs, are also very effective in wolves (per my own direct experience, and that of others I have discussed it with)...once again, I have very little experience with coyotes, which are of course a different species from the other two. There are plenty of examples from the wolfX side of the fence...for instance, a friend is rehabbing an undersocialised low content animal; she has had him about 8 months and he is just now starting to give nose bumps. Her theory is that they should be left to their own devices, not asked for anything they don't want to offer, and if they eventually come around, terrific! Yet, I have taken in animals much more fearful than this one (and of significantly more wolf heritage), and in 6 months they are leashable, handleable, can be taken in the car to the park, and are ready for adoption to a home that understands shy dogs and will stay on a maintenance program. This is accomplished by *guiding* the animal into the behaviours you need, stretching their tolerance/expanding their limits, and rewarding lavishly. Your expectations are extremely relevant, w.r.t. your results. Another example: a current list member (I won't 'out' them but they can speak up if they choose!) has created some fairly high wolf content animals who have achieved off-leash obedience, film work, and general "pet-hood". This is partially good genetics ;) and partially *high expectations* and good dog handling skills on the part of the (carefully chosen) new owners. Certainly they have the "inappropriate innate behaviours" in their bloodline, but they do not express them... What I would like to see more info on (as per my earlier question about studies), is the behaviours present in mismanaged domestic dogs. Are dogs really bulletproof, and lacking primitive behaviours to a large extent? I truly doubt that...but am open to new data! I would argue that while "Square One" is different for different breeds/types, most innate behaviour is still present to some degree and to a large extent...you keep what you reward, and you extinguish what you discourage. I really do believe that we have that much 'power' so to speak, over genetics, if we educate ourselves and discover effective methods of behaviour modification. ~Sue! ________________________________ From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] Did the dogs learn these innate signals over the years, or are these signals repressed in the dogs and only come to the forefront when triggered by the coyote pups? Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:00:06 -0500 (EST) To: SBowers@rfmd.com, applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Sue, I may be able to help out here????????? Research has shown that 35% of a dog’s ultimate temperament is produced by genetic factors while environment contributes to the remaining 65%. A day year old medium sized dog has a brain volume of ten cubic centimetres, about the size of the end of your little finger. By the time a puppy is 8 weeks old, the brain has grown to sixty cubic centimetres. By the time it has reached 16 weeks it has grown to eighty cc and rapidly approaching its full size of 100 cc. At birth a large number of the brain cells (neurons) are not connected or wired together. What takes place during the first 16 weeks of life is the wiring pattern of the nerve cells. Some cells make connections immediately driven by internal biological factors. Other connections need external signals (outside of the brain). A puppy raised mainly in the dark will have a smaller brain than a normally raised puppy. The same goes for puppies raised in an impoverished environment. It will have the same cells, but many will not be wired together. All neurons have some common structural features that allow them to transmit and receive messages. The basic parts of neurons are the cell body, dendrites, axon, and axon terminal. The cell body and dendrites function as the “receptive” part of the cell. The axon and axon terminal are involved in transmission of messages to other cells. A single neuron can cell can receive messages from thousands of other neurons. Neuroscientist have discovered a great deal about how neurons communicate with one another and believe that the intricate communication among these cells is responsible for our thoughts, memories, emotions, and sensory perception. If many of the cells are not wired, then this inhibits the puppy’s ability to cope with environmentally driven stimuli. So, for Wolf cubs etc a certain amount of their behavioural trait will be hardwired (just as we see in the various domestic breeds), then its in the way we stimulate them during the first 4 months is what you are probably observing with these ‘trained’ wolves. Sue you once told me (when I communicated with you 4 years ago when I was a mature student) that once one of your wolves gets spooked they will all follow suite, and they will then not go into a submissive posture i.e. the down position. This is the hardwiring coming into play and this cannot be overridden. It can over time and breeding be massaged out as we have seen with the evolution of new domestic dog breeds. I hope this helps, Gordon UK Subject: Re: wolves and coyotes and dogs, Oh My From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:02:46 -0500 (EST) To: stammwood@rcn.com, SBowers@rfmd.com CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca In a message dated 31/01/2009 13:57:14 GMT Standard Time, stammwood@rcn.com writes: Sue, this is typical of the way that some people with livestock guardian dog breeds raise their dogs. Perhaps it might be worthwhile contacting Ray and Lorna Coppinger. Correct me if I'm wrong but does Ray Coppinger not believe that captive wolves cannot be trained to undertake dog-like obedience? Regards Gordon Butcher UK Subject: RE: dogs managing their own emotions From: Kayce Cover Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:09:27 -0500 (EST) To: Sue Bowers CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Sue, I largely agree, but think it's extremely important to prepare the animal for the things not yet experienced or triggered. This will help to safeguard everyone when the unexpected happens. For example, I teach "think!" Whenever we encounter anything new and upsetting, I say "Think! Easy!". This directs the animal to delay automatic responses and review his own mental/emotional state. While he does that, I'll feed him more information. "Kid coming, easy, may touch you, easy...." or whatever. In other words, success of animals living with people isn't just dependent of their cooperation, but also on their ability to internalize and project our rules, into new and challenging situations. Doing this requires advanced ability to manage their own emotions - not just a knowledge of expectations and a willingness to comply. Regards, Kayce Kayce Cover MSEd, BS An Sci, CABC IAABC Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com http://www.facebook.com/people/Syn-Alia-Sats/1179766268 PO Box 8788, Norfolk, VA 23503-0788 001 757 588 5967 SATS/Bridge and Target: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/bridgeandtarget2 Trainest (newbies): http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/trainest > > This is something I am interested in, as well...only from a slightly > > different perspective. I have done the opposite with my guys--taken > > animals of high wolf content and required that they learn > > self-control, offer requested behaviours in exchange for things they > > want, and in general display "manners" as expected of typical domestic > > dogs. This has resulted in near-wolves who have at least basic > > obedience skills, can be taken to the vet and examined without issue > > like dogs, and are completely trustworthy without any special "human > > behaviours" such as wearing the same clothing every day, not lying > > down in the enclosure, not eating food in front of them, and so on. > > I am fascinated by innate behaviours (i.e. "Square One", the starting > > point at birth), but also in the modification of these behaviours. > > ... Subject: Re: wolves and coyotes and dogs, Oh My From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:24:30 -0500 (EST) To: stammwood@rcn.com CC: SBowers@rfmd.com, applied-ethology@usask.ca He did undertake some interesting study by placing a boarder collie to be brought up amongst sheep from the early stages, and seemingly the collie lost its stalk-eye motor pattern? Since it was only a one off trail it cannot be taken as a accurate evaluation….but, still interesting. Regards Gordon Butcher UK Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: Kayce Cover Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:26:25 -0500 (EST) To: LyndhurstPark@aol.com CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Gordon, While your points below comprise a largely accepted, if simplified version of the view of many neurology types, it stresses a mechanistic approach - the machine controls the driver. In another perspective, the driver drives the machine, the need to make motions compels the neuronal connections. We don't just spontaneously learn more once we have mature neuronal connections. We make MORE neuronal connections as we work to memorize something. People who work their minds and memories more tend to better them. And, new connections and perhaps new cells, can form even into old age. One thing that's always fascinated me is how many people with severe brain damage retain the same ability to think, despite a lessened ability to manifest their thought externally. For example, someone might say brilliant things, but have no memory of them and may have to write his words down in order to know what he just said. Or, a person might know exactly what he intends to say, but be unable to form sentences correctly. My point is, that voluntary behavior, expressed, or unexpressed, begins with INTENT, conscious or unconscious. Even functions considered to be totally autonomic, like heart rate, can be affected or largely controlled be those who develop expertise in managing themselves - like yogis, for example, or seals. I'll agree that "hard-wiring" in behavior is a useful concept, and that wolves, for example, are generally less plastic in their behavior than dogs are. But, I suspect that almost any behavior can be overcome, whether it is hardwired or not - if the WOLF intends to manage himself. I have seen many instances where some "expert" has said what could or could not be done with an animal, only to look like an idiot when the next person got up and demonstrated with an animal exactly what the expert said could not be done. Regards, Kayce Kayce Cover MSEd, BS An Sci, CABC IAABC Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com http://www.facebook.com/people/Syn-Alia-Sats/1179766268 PO Box 8788, Norfolk, VA 23503-0788 001 757 588 5967 SATS/Bridge and Target: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/bridgeandtarget2 Trainest (newbies): http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/trainest > > > > Hi Sue, > > I may be able to help out here????????? Research has shown that 35% of > > a dog’ > > s ultimate temperament is produced by genetic factors while > > environment > > contributes to the remaining 65%. > > A day year old medium sized dog has a brain volume of ten cubic > > centimetres, > > about the size of the end of your little finger. By the time a puppy > > is 8 > > weeks old, the brain has grown to sixty cubic centimetres. By the > > time it has > > reached 16 weeks it has grown to eighty cc and rapidly approaching > > its full > > size of 100 cc. > > At birth a large number of the brain cells (neurons) are not connected > > or > > wired together. What takes place during the first 16 weeks of life is > > the wiring > > pattern of the nerve cells. Some cells make connections immediately > > driven > > by internal biological factors. Other connections need external > > signals > > (outside of the brain). A puppy raised mainly in the dark will have a > > smaller brain > > than a normally raised puppy. The same goes for puppies raised in an > > impoverished environment. It will have the same cells, but many will > > not be wired > > together. > > All neurons have some common structural features that allow them to > > transmit > > and receive messages. The basic parts of neurons are the cell body, > > dendrites, axon, and axon terminal. The cell body and dendrites > > function as the “ > > receptive” part of the cell. The axon and axon terminal are > > involved in > > transmission of messages to other cells. A single neuron can cell can > > receive messages > > from thousands of other neurons. > > Neuroscientist have discovered a great deal about how neurons > > communicate > > with one another and believe that the intricate communication among > > these cells > > is responsible for our thoughts, memories, emotions, and sensory > > perception. > > If many of the cells are not wired, then this inhibits the puppy’s > > ability > > to cope with environmentally driven stimuli. > > So, for Wolf cubs etc a certain amount of their behavioural trait will > > be > > hardwired (just as we see in the various domestic breeds), then its in > > the way > > we stimulate them during the first 4 months is what you are probably > > observing > > with these ‘trained’ wolves. Sue you once told me (when I > > communicated with > > you 4 years ago when I was a mature student) that once one of your > > wolves > > gets spooked they will all follow suite, and they will then not go > > into a > > submissive posture i.e. the down position. This is the hardwiring > > coming into play > > and this cannot be overridden. It can over time and breeding be > > massaged out > > as we have seen with the evolution of new domestic dog breeds. > > I hope this helps, > > GordonUK > > Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:40:44 -0500 (EST) To: kc@synalia.com CC: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi Kayce, I agree, I suppose I was attempting to keep it simple for the non (scientific)academic amongst us (and before I receive a flood of discordant e mails, I mean this in a congenial way with no arrogance attached). Domestication does seems to have alteration in behavioural thresholds that modulated aggression with domestic Canids entering conflict that would be otherwise avoided by Wolves etc. Regards Gordon Butcher UK Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions From: Kayce Cover Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:41:05 -0500 (EST) To: LyndhurstPark@aol.com CC: kc@synalia.com, applied-ethology@usask.ca Thanks Gordon. Agreed. Regards, Kayce > > Hi Kayce, > > > > I agree, I suppose I was attempting to keep it simple for the non > > (scientific)academic amongst us (and before I receive a flood of > > discordant e mails, I > > mean this in a congenial way with no arrogance attached). > > > > Domestication does seems to have alteration in behavioural thresholds > > that > > modulated aggression with domestic Canids entering conflict that > > would be > > otherwise avoided by Wolves etc. > > > > Regards > > > > Gordon Butcher > > UK > > Regards, Kayce Kayce Cover MSEd, BS An Sci, CABC IAABC Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com http://www.facebook.com/people/Syn-Alia-Sats/1179766268 PO Box 8788, Norfolk, VA 23503-0788 001 757 588 5967 SATS/Bridge and Target: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/bridgeandtarget2 Trainest (newbies): http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/trainest Subject: RE: dogs managing their own emotions From: Sue Bowers Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:41:05 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Thank you! :) Quite glad to see you jump in. Now, while I'll agree that the hard-wiring theoretically limits the range of responses, do you think that it ever really limits the animal in terms of *practical* behaviour? By this I mean: shouldn't any canid who develops a bond with their human, be able to accomplish pretty much anything within the normal range of dos and don'ts for a dog in our society, if given proper training? I am not talking about doing Schutzhund with a Siberian or SAR with a Lhasa , but do you think there is anything critical to life as companion animals, that the 16 week hardwiring would render unattainable? With a pure wolf or high content cross, I would say that if they have never trusted a human by that point, it is possible that they never will. Just about anything else, IMO, is trainable--if you have the skill set. But, what has been found to be the case with domestic dogs? ~Sue! From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com [mailto:LyndhurstPark@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 9:00 AM To: Sue Bowers; applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions Hi Sue, I may be able to help out here????????? Research has shown that 35% of a dog’s ultimate temperament is produced by genetic factors while environment contributes to the remaining 65%. A day year old medium sized dog has a brain volume of ten cubic centimetres, about the size of the end of your little finger. By the time a puppy is 8 weeks old, the brain has grown to sixty cubic centimetres. By the time it has reached 16 weeks it has grown to eighty cc and rapidly approaching its full size of 100 cc. At birth a large number of the brain cells (neurons) are not connected or wired together. What takes place during the first 16 weeks of life is the wiring pattern of the nerve cells. Some cells make connections immediately driven by internal biological factors. Other connections need external signals (outside of the brain). A puppy raised mainly in the dark will have a smaller brain than a normally raised puppy. The same goes for puppies raised in an impoverished environment. It will have the same cells, but many will not be wired together. All neurons have some common structural features that allow them to transmit and receive messages. The basic parts of neurons are the cell body, dendrites, axon, and axon terminal. The cell body and dendrites function as the “receptive” part of the cell. The axon and axon terminal are involved in transmission of messages to other cells. A single neuron can cell can receive messages from thousands of other neurons. Neuroscientist have discovered a great deal about how neurons communicate with one another and believe that the intricate communication among these cells is responsible for our thoughts, memories, emotions, and sensory perception. If many of the cells are not wired, then this inhibits the puppy’s ability to cope with environmentally driven stimuli. So, for Wolf cubs etc a certain amount of their behavioural trait will be hardwired (just as we see in the various domestic breeds), then its in the way we stimulate them during the first 4 months is what you are probably observing with these ‘trained’ wolves. Sue you once told me (when I communicated with you 4 years ago when I was a mature student) that once one of your wolves gets spooked they will all follow suite, and they will then not go into a submissive posture i.e. the down position. This is the hardwiring coming into play and this cannot be overridden. It can over time and breeding be massaged out as we have seen with the evolution of new domestic dog breeds. I hope this helps, Gordon UK Subject: RE: dogs managing their own emotions From: Ray Stricklin Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:44:52 -0500 To: LyndhurstPark@aol.com, SBowers@rfmd.com, applied-ethology@usask.ca Dear All, I generally stay away from the dog discussions - but I happened to note the first sentence of the message below. I think what was intended to be said was that the heritability estimate for temperament in dogs is 35%. A heritability estimate is a value relative to a group of animals; it is not a value that can be applied to a single individual. A heritability estimate is a measure of the total amount of variation in a trait that is due to genetic variation - in that group of animals. Heritability estimates are useful if one wishes to know how much change (progress) would be expected in an artificial selection program. The principal application of heritability estimates is in the breeding (selection) for more milk, eggs, rate of gain, etc. - but heritability estimates could also have application in breeding dogs for temperament. Bottom line is that heritability estimates are relative to a group and provide essentially no information regarding relative importance of nature vs. nurture for a given individual. Best regards to all, Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com [mailto:LyndhurstPark@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 9:00 AM To: SBowers@rfmd.com; applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: Re: dogs managing their own emotions Hi Sue, I may be able to help out here????????? Research has shown that 35% of a dog’s ultimate temperament is produced by genetic factors while environment contributes to the remaining 65%. A day year old medium sized dog has a brain volume of ten cubic centimetres, about the size of the end of your little finger. By the time a puppy is 8 weeks old, the brain has grown to sixty cubic centimetres. By the time it has reached 16 weeks it has grown to eighty cc and rapidly approaching its full size of 100 cc. At birth a large number of the brain cells (neurons) are not connected or wired together. What takes place during the first 16 weeks of life is the wiring pattern of the nerve cells. Some cells make connections immediately driven by internal biological factors. Other connections need external signals (outside of the brain). A puppy raised mainly in the dark will have a smaller brain than a normally raised puppy. The same goes for puppies raised in an impoverished environment. It will have the same cells, but many will not be wired together. All neurons have some common structural features that allow them to transmit and receive messages. The basic parts of neurons are the cell body, dendrites, axon, and axon terminal. The cell body and dendrites function as the “receptive” part of the cell. The axon and axon terminal are involved in transmission of messages to other cells. A single neuron can cell can receive messages from thousands of other neurons. Neuroscientist have discovered a great deal about how neurons communicate with one another and believe that the intricate communication among these cells is responsible for our thoughts, memories, emotions, and sensory perception. If many of the cells are not wired, then this inhibits the puppy’s ability to cope with environmentally driven stimuli. So, for Wolf cubs etc a certain amount of their behavioural trait will be hardwired (just as we see in the various domestic breeds), then its in the way we stimulate them during the first 4 months is what you are probably observing with these ‘trained’ wolves. Sue you once told me (when I communicated with you 4 years ago when I was a mature student) that once one of your wolves gets spooked they will all follow suite, and they will then not go into a submissive posture i.e. the down position. This is the hardwiring coming into play and this cannot be overridden. It can over time and breeding be massaged out as we have seen with the evolution of new domestic dog breeds. I hope this helps, Gordon UK Subject: RE: wolves and coyotes and dogs, Oh My From: Sue Bowers Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:51:25 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I don't know how much experience the Coppingers have in working with wolves, but I recall a story from their book 'Dogs' (at least I believe that was where I read it), in which they went to Wolf Park and went in with one of the packs. Dr. Klinghammer had advised him to just "treat them like they were dogs", so he thumped one heartily on the side and she went for him. I am quite sure he drew some conclusions from that! One needs to remember that a place like Wolf Park does NOT raise their animals to be companions/pets/dogs. They exist to study wolf behaviour, and such a thing would be counterproductive! Humans are *not* dominant to the Wolf Park wolves...they are trained and socialised, but the limits and agreements are quite different than you would have in a companion dog setting. Personally, I have found that although some folks these days are choosing to no longer "believe in" dominance theory, both dogs and wolves still believe in it and that makes the denial somewhat akin to "not believing in gravity". ;-) Wolves and wolfdogs certainly do expect you to act like a leader, in order to follow your lead...this does not in any way demand rough behaviour on the human's part(!) but you are expected to be clearly and firmly in charge...perhaps more so than with many other kinds of canine. Thank you for the suggestion though, Cissy, as Coppinger did a lot of work with large numbers of dogs--in various non-pet settings--and would probably be a good resource! ~Sue From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com [mailto:LyndhurstPark@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 9:03 AM To: stammwood@rcn.com; Sue Bowers Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: Re: wolves and coyotes and dogs, Oh My In a message dated 31/01/2009 13:57:14 GMT Standard Time, stammwood@rcn.com writes: Sue, this is typical of the way that some people with livestock guardian dog breeds raise their dogs. Perhaps it might be worthwhile contacting Ray and Lorna Coppinger. Correct me if I'm wrong but does Ray Coppinger not believe that captive wolves cannot be trained to undertake dog-like obedience? Regards Gordon Butcher UK