From: IN%"sandra.tutsch@lfl.bayern.de" "Sandra Tutsch" 1-JUL-2003 01:27:47.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: the dog whisperer Hi all! I read in an scientific magacine (P.M. 7/2003) about "the dog whisperer" . Maybe quite interesting for the "dog s thunderstorm-phobia - discussion": http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com People bring their dogs with hyperactivity, anxiety neuroses or paranoia to "the dog whisperer" Cesar Millan. His method: group therapy. The sick dogs are put into Millans troop out of 25 dogs with Millan itself on top of the hierarchy. Each day starts with a four-hours-training (running, swimming, playing with a ball...), followed by a resting and feeding time. In the afternoon the dogs get some individual training, where their sensitive nose plays a big role. Millan also teaches the owners how to treat the dogs well - in the interest of the dog and not of the human. Sandra Tutsch From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 1-JUL-2003 04:05:55.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Phobias I wonder if some of the effects are the result of feedback between the state of mind of the dog and owner? I sometimes help my elderly neighbour when her cats need to see the vet & it's quite striking that her cats are much calmer when I hold them than if she tries and that this calming effect doesn't work on my own cats :( I'm fairly sure that I go through a similar, "there, there, nice vet isn't going to hurt you routine" for both sets, but I'm actually much more anxious when it's my own cats being examined. I wonder if some of the thunder-phobic dogs are not so much treating over-solicitous behaviour by their owners as a reward as picking up the owner's anxiety that the dog is distressed and becoming more fearful as a result? ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" 1-JUL-2003 05:06:13.56 To: CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: BBC NEWS Science-Nature Mice can 'foretell earthquakes' There are many anecdotal reports in the service dog user community of dogs alerting to impending earthquakes. The alerts are reported to be anxiety reactions like panting and pacing. We spend 24/7 with our dogs and are very tuned in to subtle behavior changes. These changes are the basis of "alerting" behavior (seizures, low blood sugar, panic attack, etc). Once we are able to identify the behavior and what it is predicting, we can "shape" the behavior into a reliable and socially acceptable alert through P+. Although theories abound about what the dog is detecting, to the best of my knowledge, there's been no conclusive research. Cissy (who is now wondering whether initial t-storm reactions can be shaped in the same way and thereby stop the progression to phobia) Julie Alexander wrote: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3030780.stm > From: IN%"mondelli@biol.unipr.it" "Francesca Mondelli" 1-JUL-2003 07:30:17.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cortisol in feces My collegues and I have been trying to analyse the cortisol levels in dogs' feces according to the method reported in many published studies. Our problem is the color of the samples, since the pigments and lipids seem to interfere with the final results. Can anyone give us any suggestion or explanation, or reference of some studies where we can find these information? Thank you. Francesca Mondelli ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 1-JUL-2003 11:15:22.16 To: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: BBC NEWS Science-Nature Mice can 'foretell earthquakes' In a message dated 7/1/2003 4:08:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, stammwood@rcn.com writes: > There are many anecdotal reports in the service dog user community of > dogs alerting to impending earthquakes. The alerts are reported to be > anxiety reactions like panting and pacing. > > I wonder what the evolutionary basis of this ability is. Does the dogs behavior in some way improve its ability to survive an earthquake (leaving the den?). Or is it a side effect of another innate ability. Do dogs have a magnetic direction sense like pigeons? Perhaps the disruption of this sense causes them disorientation and anxiety. I am not crazy about this idea because I doubt that the magnetic fluctuations are close to the magnitude of the earths natural magnetic field. From: IN%"robin@coape.co.uk" "Robin Walker" 1-JUL-2003 16:04:31.40 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: BBC NEWS Science-Nature Mice can 'foretell earthquakes' Indeed! The question must always be "what is the advantage of behaviour?" But of course we must remember that adaptability depends on being able to respond to new circumstances so that the door is open for adaptability. For example the phenomenon of "sensory specific satiety" may enable an individual to try novel food sources. The propensity to "alert" to novel circumstances is surely the springboard of opportunity to trial motor programs which may, by chance, be adaptive. Many such behaviours will come to no fruitful result in survival terms but without the mechanism of trial nothing will ever evolve! All these apparent responses to perturbations of environment are surely not more (or less) than adaptability in waiting! Whilst "harping" may I strum chords of approval of Desh's (D.M Campbell) masterly thoughts on sound phobia! Robin -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] Sent: 01 July 2003 18:15 To: stammwood@rcn.com Cc: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: BBC NEWS Science-Nature Mice can 'foretell earthquakes' In a message dated 7/1/2003 4:08:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, stammwood@rcn.com writes: There are many anecdotal reports in the service dog user community of dogs alerting to impending earthquakes. The alerts are reported to be anxiety reactions like panting and pacing. I wonder what the evolutionary basis of this ability is. Does the dogs behavior in some way improve its ability to survive an earthquake (leaving the den?). Or is it a side effect of another innate ability. Do dogs have a magnetic direction sense like pigeons? Perhaps the disruption of this sense causes them disorientation and anxiety. I am not crazy about this idea because I doubt that the magnetic fluctuations are close to the magnitude of the earths natural magnetic field. From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 1-JUL-2003 16:33:42.97 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: foretelling earthquakes Hello, I have mentioned this once before in connection with something that was said on this list serv, but maybe only to the original author and not the whole group. So, I will repeat the experience I had a few years ago when I was staying at a country house on a river in West Virginia. At a bend of the river, there was a mature tree growing out of the river bank with branches reaching over the river and the limbs were frequently used by kids to dive from. It had been a familiar fixture leaning out on the river bank since I had begun renting the farm house several years earlier. One evening as we sat on the porch of a neighboring cabin overlooking the tree and river, the neighbor's dog -- a hunting spaniel -- began to bark at the tree in an agitated manner and carried on barking late into the evening before he got hoarse and had to be brought inside. The owner remarked on the dog's peculiar and unprecedented behavior. The next morning, the tree was in the river with its roots in the air, having fallen overnight. So, from this can one conclude that the dog could detect (by supersensitive hearing, perhaps?) vibrations reflecting stresses in the tree that we humans could not? Could animals that "foretell" earthquakes simply be hearing things or sensing vibrations that humans are not able to detect? To carry on a different thread, a few weeks ago there was a brief discussion of raccoons washing their food. Over the past few summers, we have befriended quite a few raccoons and their offspring by scattering catfood in the grass from the front porch (to keep them from eating the more expensive food we feed the cats on the porch--it doesn't always work out that way) and have had the opportunity to observe them quite closely while they are feeding and playing. We put out a child's wading pool filled with fresh water every night which they enjoy drinking from and splashing in. We have noticed that they seldom wash familiar objects (e.g., the cat food nuggets or the occasional grapes, which they eat directly from the ground by picking them up with their paws and putting them in their mouths) but will occasionally dip unfamiliar objects in the water and feel them. My feelings are that their actions are less about washing food than they are about using the water to check out the objects and familiarize themselves with novel objects by feeling them with their hands. Maybe the water makes their hands more sensitive to the objects. Marlene Halverson From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 1-JUL-2003 17:24:26.54 To: IN%"robin@coape.co.uk", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: BBC NEWS Science-Nature Mice can 'foretell earthquakes' Well, If I read your statement correctly you have fallen pray to the=20 teleological fallacy applied to evolution. Evolution cannot anticipate futur= e=20 innovations. Though it is clear that some evolutionary steps lead to further= =20 developments, the early steps are not selected for unless there is at least=20= a marginal=20 benefit to each intermediate stage.=20 The sexual reproduction might be an exception to this rule, but it is=20 exceptional in that it dramatically increases the rate of positive evolution= ary=20 innovation to a degree that no other trait we know does. In a message dated 7/1/2003 3:05:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,=20 robin@coape.co.uk writes: > Indeed! >=20 > =20 >=20 > The question must always be =E2=80=9Cwhat is the advantage of behaviour?= =E2=80=9D >=20 > =20 >=20 > But of course we must remember that adaptability depends on being able >=20 > To respond to new circumstances so that the door is open for adaptability= . >=20 > =20 >=20 > For example the phenomenon of =E2=80=9Csensory specific satiety=E2=80=9D m= ay enable >=20 > An individual to try novel food sources. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The propensity to =E2=80=9Calert=E2=80=9D to novel circumstances is surely= the springboard=20 >=20 > Of opportunity to trial motor programs which may, by chance, be adaptive. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Many such behaviours will come to no fruitful result in survival terms but= =20 > without >=20 > the mechanism of trial nothing will ever evolve! >=20 > =20 >=20 > All these apparent responses to perturbations of environment are surely no= t >=20 > more (or less) than adaptability in waiting! >=20 > =20 >=20 > Whilst =E2=80=9Charping=E2=80=9D may I strum chords of approval of Desh= =E2=80=99s (D.M Campbell)=20 >=20 > masterly thoughts on sound phobia! >=20 > =20 >=20 > Robin >=20 >=20 From: IN%"hmcmurra@elp.rr.com" "heather mcmurray" 2-JUL-2003 00:12:28.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Question from student Please correspond directly with: Laura Worster __> > My name is Laura Worster and I am going to be a senior in High School. I would like to study animal behavior, with a main focus on dogs and cats. I realize that the study of animal behavior has just started to open up during the years, and so it is a hard major to obtain. > > If you could give me any advice about colleges to look at, I would be very grateful. I am limited on tuition money (12,500 a yr.) and I only have an ACT score of 23, although I believe I could raise it. I could also take my first year or two in a less expensive college to save money. > > My love for animals has turned me towards a path and I would like to follow this path if it is possible. If you have any advice or ideas of colleges for me, please email me at raface@ameritech.net. > > > Thank you for taking the time to read this. Sincerely, > > > > Laura Worster From: IN%"robin@coape.co.uk" "Robin Walker" 2-JUL-2003 00:38:31.11 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: BBC NEWS Science-Nature Mice can 'foretell earthquakes' You have not read my statement correctly and I "pray" that you might! Let me try again. There is some agreement that the phenomenon of novelty ranks with signals of reward, signals of punishment, and innate fears in activating "behavioral inhibition". That is to say "we" (us dogs and humans) are organized emotionally to "stop, look and listen!" when our environment offers stimuli that "ain't right". We have species typical prompts for avoidance and species typical methods of implementing avoidance. In the extremis of fear certain canids will go to ground. Perhaps this is infantile behaviour. Perhaps the dog in extremis with the physiological chaos of hypovolaemic shock experiences primal fear and attempts to scrape a hole as it is dying. Panic stricken dogs will franticly dig at earth banks, bathroom mats and clothes-filled wardrobes. The sound stimulus being pervasive and unfocussed in its origin escape cannot be vectored to achieve relief. Hence dogs will fight to escape from the house and fight to regain entry or attempt to dig dens or escape back to the car. As Desh observes such dogs are primed for profound shaping by the antics of "significant others". It is possible that dogs are highly averse to standing on "wobbly" floors as indeed horses are averse to icy roads. A dog on a table that wobbles will freeze. Dogs trapped on slippery floors may actually "seize". So perhaps it is innate for the dog to react to peculiar vibrations which are too subtle for our senses? Please don't set me off! It goes via the Delphic Oracle (gas fueled Pythic piffle trips), fraudulent fund raising in Temples and Shrines, temporal lobe seizure (St Paul and Mohammed), and always end-runs with the hideous Pilgrim Fathers, the Daughters of the American Revolution and Enron! God help us all! Robin -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] Sent: 02 July 2003 00:24 To: robin@coape.co.uk; stammwood@rcn.com Cc: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: BBC NEWS Science-Nature Mice can 'foretell earthquakes' Well, If I read your statement correctly you have fallen pray to the teleological fallacy applied to evolution. Evolution cannot anticipate future innovations. Though it is clear that some evolutionary steps lead to further developments, the early steps are not selected for unless there is at least a marginal benefit to each intermediate stage. From: IN%"isae2004@isae2004.org" "ISAE 2004 Anna Valros" 2-JUL-2003 05:58:31.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"isae2004@isae2004.org" Subj: ISAE 2004 in Finland - 1st Announcement Dear list members, As many of us have just returned from the interesting and enjoyable ISAE 2003 -congress in Italy, it is now time to plan the future: The next ISAE -congress will be held in Helsinki, Finland, August 3-7 2004. The congress webpage and first announcement is now available at: www.isae2004.org I hope I will see all of you again next year, as well as heaps of new people! If you have any questions or comments, please contact me: isae2004@isae2004.org Please note that we are asking participants to suggest workshop topics - Send me a mail if you have a good idea! Best wishes, Anna Valros, PhD Congress secretary / ISAE 2004 Section for Animal Hygiene Department of Clinical Veterinary Sciences P.O. Box 57 00014 University of Helsinki Finland Phone: +358 9 19149508 Fax: +358 9 19149799 isae2004@isae2004.org From: IN%"kelly@jxie.com" "Kelly" 2-JUL-2003 07:29:00.56 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Special Cape Could Help Pets Through Storms (Article) Special Cape Could Help Pets Through Storms POSTED: 4:20 p.m. EDT July 1, 2003 UPDATED: 4:20 p.m. EDT July 1, 2003 It's thunderstorm season in much of the country, and that can mean frightened pets. An Ohio man may have found the solution. He created a special cape to help his dog overcome anxiety associated with a coming storm, and now, yes, he's selling the product online. Thomas Critzer's dog Cody would go a little wild when weather turned stormy. After a lot of research, the former electrical engineer and University of Cincinnati teacher created a cape for Cody. "The dogs were triggered by several things. One of which was the static charge in the air the same static charge which produces lightning," Critzer said. Critzer said the cape's aluminum threaded material on the underside discharges the dog's fur. Critzer said that static charge is what can cause some animals to go panic before a thunderstorm. Critzer has made and sold 60 capes with success. Beth Knisely and her dog Lacy is one success story. Knisely said Lacy would keep her up all night during storms, and tremble uncontrollably. "(At) 2:30 in the morning, Lacy woke me up panting and pacing and I put the coat on her, and she within two minutes time calmed down went down on the ground and no panting, no pacing, no trembling. It was a miracle," Knisely said. Even Critzer is surprised his invention works so well. He has made capes for Chihuahuas and even a horse. The Storm Defender costs from $55-$65 and all capes are custom-made. Critzer said it may take a few storms for the cape to work completely. Copyright 2003 by TheWBALChannel.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/2305834/detail.html From: IN%"lking@hsus.org" "Lesley King" 3-JUL-2003 10:51:23.08 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: 2003 HSUS Animals and Society Course Awards: Call for Nominations The Humane Society of the United States' 2003 Animals & Society Course Awards: Announcement of New Award and Call for Nominations The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) is pleased to announce the call for nominations for its awards for academic excellence in the design and instruction of Animals & Society (A&S) courses. These courses address issues such as the interaction between humans and animals, our obligations toward animals and perspectives on the status of animals. The awards are intended to help foster the availability of high quality curricula in a wide variety of relevant academic fields such as biology, law, environmental studies, philosophy, psychology, sociology and animal science. Since the awards program's inception, The HSUS has offered two awards for distinguished college-level courses: 1) for an established A&S course currently taught at an institution, and 2) for a new A&S course scheduled for instruction. We now call for nominations for these awards for 2003. Each offers a prize of $1,500, given to the institutional department in which the course is taught. The competition is open to courses run throughout North America. This year the HSUS will offer a further award for innovation in the study of animals and society. This award provides a prize of $500 and is offered for a short, novel or otherwise innovative course that achieves notable impact at a local or national level, by one or more of the following: 1) bringing the study of animals and society into new arenas, where these issues were not previously addressed 2) approaching the study of animals and society from a novel perspective, or using novel teaching methods 3) providing exposure to participants who would not otherwise address academic issues relating to animals and society 4) focusing the course toward participants whose learning experience will have a direct impact upon animals and/or animal protection. Nominees may apply for one or more of the awards. Award winners will be selected by an advisory panel. Nominations must include: * a letter of recommendation from the relevant department chairperson * a course outline or syllabus * a brief (one paragraph) description of how the award will be used * student evaluations for the previous two years the course was offered (for established courses only) * a cover letter from the instructor * a statement of the award(s) for which the course is requested to be considered Send nominations by September 1, 2003 to: HSUS Animals & Society Award, c/o Dr. Lesley King, Director for Education and Animal Welfare, Animal Research Issues, The HSUS, 2100 L Street, NW, Washington, DC 20037 (tel.: 301-258-3046, fax: 301-258-7760, e-mail: lking@hsus.org). No special forms are necessary. From: IN%"kersti@ava.com.au" "Kersti Seksel" 6-JUL-2003 07:08:44.98 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Reminder IVBM JUST A REMINDER! 18-20 August 2003 4th International Veterinary Behaviour Meeting Caloundra Queensland Australia Contact details: 02 6273 8855 Email avacos@ava.com.au Website: www.ava.com.au conferences Also includes the Australian College of Veterinary Scientists Behaviour Chapter meeting The conference registration, accomodation, and program information can all be found on the conference website at www.ava.com.au. Check on conferences to find the IVBM meeting. In addition to the program and conference details, preconference social activities have been planned. PRE-CONFERENCE ACTIVITIES Saturday 16 August Visit to the famous Eumundi Markets. Eumundi is a charming little town in the hinterland of the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. Its markets are a meeting place for locals and visitors from all over the world. Vendors include artisans with local craft and farmers with a variety of fresh produce. There is also a local brewery. See the driver on your Sunair coach during your transfer from the airport or visit the Sunair website www.sunair.com.au. Sunday 17 August Today we have arranged a whole day trip to see two of the Sunshine Coast's most famous landmarks - the Big Pineapple and Australia Zoo (home of the Crocodile Hunter, Steve Irwin). Your Sunair coach will collect you in the morning and head for the Big Pineapple. There you will be able to ride the cane train through a plantation of tropical and subtropical fruits, and visit the macadamia factory. Make sure you try one of the many tropical fruit parfaits! Take the opportunity to sample and purchase the many local products available for sale. Then it's back on the bus to arrive at Australia Zoo in time for the shows, including snake handling and the crocodile show. You will have ample time to visit all exhibits before the bus collects you for the return trip to Caloundra. The cost of this day trip (which includes admission to Australia Zoo) is Adults A$48 Children (up to 14 years) A$38 Please note that this trip will be conducted subject to a minimum number of 20 participants. For more information on the venues please visit their websites bigpineapple.com.au and crocodilehunter.com.au SO BOOK NOW AND COME AND ENJOY THE CONGRESS AND THE SUN! Hope to see you there! Dr Kersti Seksel BVSc (hons) MRCVS MA (hons) FACVSc (Animal Behaviour) Dipl ACVB Registered Specialist in Animal Behaviour 55 Ethel Street Seaforth NSW 2092 Australia Ph 612 9949 8511 Fax 612 9949 6364 From: IN%"sharmark@sover.net" "Sharon & Mark Wirant" 8-JUL-2003 08:55:39.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Recommended Statistics Program I am looking to purchase a quality statistics program for my graduate behavioral research. Our resident statistician uses Minitab, which I used in my stats class. Most of the biology professors use Excel. I was told by one biology professor that Minitab is a weak program for biological purposes. My advisor uses a very ancient biostat program (BDSP?). Any recommendations would be appreciated! Thanks! Sharon Wirant From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 8-JUL-2003 09:25:38.09 To: IN%"sharmark@sover.net" "Sharon & Mark Wirant" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Recommended Statistics Program My suggestion: never use EXCEL for statistics. It is completely flawed.=20= t-tests and ANOVA's are unreliable. I've learned this when teaching a=20 lab years ago. My students were using EXCEL, and were reporting strange=20= data, often completely in contradiction with mine. I was using=20 Statistica. I decided to re-run my analyses with SPSS, StatView, and R=20= and all agreed with me and disagreed with Excel. This, I believe, was documented in a number of articles on the web as=20 well as published articles. I do not remember the exact reason for the=20= errors, but it was scary to see how some analyses turned out=20 significant differences when they were clearly not with the other=20 packages (and vice versa). Depending on how sophisticated your analyses need to be, a relatively=20 low cost program is Prism by GraphPad (http://www.graphpad.com/). It=20 won't handle complex analyses like Statistica, SPSS, R, SYSTAT or SAS=20 can, but it will do whatever Excel is suppose to do. S. Gadbois ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Behavioural endocrinology and ethology. Canids: wolves, coyotes and red foxes. http://www.Gadbois.org/ On Tuesday, Jul 8, 2003, at 11:51 Canada/Atlantic, Sharon & Mark Wirant=20= wrote: > I am looking to purchase a quality statistics program for my graduate=20= > behavioral research. =A0Our resident statistician uses Minitab, which = I=20 > used in my stats class.=A0Most of the biology professors use Excel.=A0I=20= > was told by one biology professor that Minitab is a weak program for=20= > biological purposes.=A0My advisor uses a very ancient biostat program=20= > (BDSP?).=A0Any recommendations would be appreciated! From: IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk" "Francis Burton" 8-JUL-2003 09:36:29.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Recommended Statistics Program At 10:51 08/07/03 -0400, Sharon & Mark Wirant wrote: > name="City"/> name="place"/> 200 Clean Clean DocumentEmail 9.35 >pt 2 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 >st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable > {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband->size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in >5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso->pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} Hi Sharon, For simple statistics I recommend and use InStat from Graphpad, Inc. (http://www.graphpad.com/instat3/instat.htm) Your mention of Excel suggests perhaps that your needs are fairly modest, and InStat might well suffice. Incidentally, Excel has a bad reputation for accuracy and robustness. See http://www.amstat.org/chapters/Alaska/ExcelIssues.html for details. Minitab is popular for teaching statistical analysis with computers, probably because there are several books based on it. However, I found Release 10 rather cumbersome in daily use - more recent versions may be better. Francis From: IN%"laura@xul.com" "Laura Sanborn" 8-JUL-2003 09:50:12.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Recommended Statistics Program Thanks for the information Francis and Simon on the flaws in Excel's built in statistics functions. I wasn't aware of that. My needs for statistics are quite light, and I'm proficient in Excel, so it was a natural choice for me. Hmmm... >Incidentally, Excel has a bad reputation for accuracy and robustness. >See http://www.amstat.org/chapters/Alaska/ExcelIssues.html for details. Interesting. At the bottom of this webpage, it mentions "PopTools is a free add-in for EXCEL that is much superior to the standard data analysis package, especially for the statistically inclined." A download link is provided. So those of us who don't want to leave the comfort of Excel have an option to derive accurate statistics.... a free one at that. :-) Laura Sanborn From: IN%"jcooper@lincoln.ac.uk" "Jonathan Cooper" 8-JUL-2003 10:24:06.24 To: IN%"sharmark@sover.net" "'Sharon & Mark Wirant'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Recommended Statistics Program Depends on what tests you intend to carry out but Minitab is considerably more powerful than Microsoft(?) Excel for most statistics tests. Should also consider SPSS which many psychologists use as standard. I would be very worried about stats competence of anyone suggesting using excel over dedicated stats package. Jonathan -----Original Message----- From: Sharon & Mark Wirant [mailto:sharmark@sover.net] Sent: 08 July 2003 15:51 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Recommended Statistics Program I am looking to purchase a quality statistics program for my graduate behavioral research. Our resident statistician uses Minitab, which I used in my stats class. Most of the biology professors use Excel. I was told by one biology professor that Minitab is a weak program for biological purposes. My advisor uses a very ancient biostat program (BDSP?). Any recommendations would be appreciated! Thanks! Sharon Wirant From: IN%"jlanier@hsus.org" "Jennifer Lanier" 8-JUL-2003 12:31:25.69 To: IN%"sharmark@sover.net" "Sharon & Mark Wirant", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Recommended Statistics Program I used SAS, as this is what many at my university used. We never did much on Excel except import it into SAS as a data sheet. Some liked Minitab better but found that SAS was more widely used by the professors. I think it comes down to what you are comfortable with, what your statistics department can help you with (because you will most likely needed it regardless), and what you ultimately want to "crunch" into meaningful information. I'd suggest talking with the stats experts at your school, as well as looking in the referred journals that interest you and see what others in your field/area are using . Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture The Humane Society of the United States 2100 L. Street NW Washington, D.C. 20037 (301) 548 7787 (301) 258 3081 Fax jlanier@hsus.org -----Original Message----- From: Sharon & Mark Wirant [mailto:sharmark@sover.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 10:51 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Recommended Statistics Program I am looking to purchase a quality statistics program for my graduate behavioral research. Our resident statistician uses Minitab, which I used in my stats class. Most of the biology professors use Excel. I was told by one biology professor that Minitab is a weak program for biological purposes. My advisor uses a very ancient biostat program (BDSP?). Any recommendations would be appreciated! Thanks! Sharon Wirant From: IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk" "Francis Burton" 8-JUL-2003 13:38:22.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: OT: plain text posting Dear List Members, Could those who post using Outlook, or other programs that default to sending out email in html or other "rich" format, consider making plain text the default, please? That would allow people (like me) who have email clients that don't understand html to read messages much more easily. Otherwise we have to sift through masses of extraneous markup such as that quoted below. Thank you very much! Francis >"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =3D = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" >xmlns:w =3D = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1 =3D = "urn:schemas-microsoft->com:office:smarttags">Message= namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags">= >namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"> = 200 Clean >Clean DocumentEmail 9.35 pt 2 = >MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 st1\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#ieooui) }= @font-face { >font-family: Tunga; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in;= margin: 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in >1.0in; mso-header-margin: .5in;= mso-footer-margin: .5in; mso-paper-source: 0; } >P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:= 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi->font-family:= Tunga; mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan;= mso-fareast->font-family: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:= 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in >0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family:= Tunga; mso-style-parent: ""; mso->pagination: widow-orphan;= mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { > FONT-SIZE:= 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family:= >Tunga; mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan;= mso-fareast-font-family: >"Times New Roman" } A:link { COLOR: blue;= TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text->underline: single } SPAN.MsoHyperlink {= COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text->underline: single }= A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text->underline:= single } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION:= >underline; text-underline: single } SPAN.EmailStyle17 { COLOR:= windowtext; FONT->FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;= mso-style-type: personal-compose; mso-style->noshow: yes;= mso-ansi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt;= mso-ascii-font->family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial } DIV.Section1= { page: Section1 } /* >Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable= {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso->tstyle-rowband-size:0;= mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso->style-parent:"";= mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in;= > mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan;= font->size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} I used SAS,= as this is what=20 From: IN%"Urska.Kos@vf.uni-lj.si" "Kos Urska" 9-JUL-2003 04:01:07.03 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Urgent - cockfights and letting the cock with paraschute from 1000 m asl hight Dear members,=20 I would like to have your opinion on and if there is some scientific = literature of cock fights (how stresfull they are for animals, how much = a welfare is comprised during the fight or when breeding and training = for the fight). Another question is, does the cock that is packed in the = bag on the back of the person who jumps with parashute suffers and how = much? My opinion on the latter is that this isonly a short term suffering if = the cock is not used to be in the bag toghether with termal changes that = can compromise the health of the animal, but if it is only one occasion = it would not be a huge welfare problem for the cock (more of a problem = if it was slaughtered afterwards without stunning).... =20 Thanks for your comments... =20 Ur=B9ka=20 =20 mag. Ur=B9ka Kos, dr.vet.med.=20 Veterinary Faculty University of LJubljana=20 1115 Ljubljana=20 tel. 00 386 1 4779 142=20 fax. ++ 386 1 2832 243=20 e-mail: urska.kos@vf.uni-lj.si=20 =20 From: IN%"alex.freeman@bbc.co.uk" "Alex Freeman" 9-JUL-2003 04:29:55.95 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: BBC TV programme I am just starting work on a new BBC TV programme (called 'Test Your Pet' at the moment) in which I'm hoping we can introduce viewers to some real animal behaviour experiments, and also turn up some genuinely interesting results. In the programme we hope to design and demonstrate some simple tests that people can carry out at home with their domestic animals and ask them to e-mail us the results. For example, we might get people to test the left/right paw preferences of their pet, and then we can compare different breeds and species. In the studio we might then test the preferences of some champion sheepdogs or obediance dogs and compare the linkage of paw preference with language ability (as I believe has now been demonstrated in parrots). There are a lot of pets out there, and I hope that even if people do not always carry out their tests in conditions as controlled as we might like, the sheer volume of data might provide some interesting pointers for further research. We also need to design our tests and analysis to be as robust as possible. If anyone has any ideas for areas that we might consider investigating or ideas for actual tests that we could feature, then I would love to hear from you. Thanks very much indeed for your help. Alex ******************************************** Dr Alexandra Freeman Natural History Unit, BBC Broadcasting House, Whiteladies Road Bristol BS8 2LR Tel: 0117 974 6969 Fax: 0117 974 7732 ******************************************** BBCi at http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From: IN%"t.carter@apu.ac.uk" "Toby Carter" 9-JUL-2003 05:43:59.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: LECTURERSHIPS IN ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR/ANIMAL WELFARE/ECOLOGY ANGLIA POLYTECHNIC UNIVERSITY Based at Cambridge LECTURERSHIPS IN ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR/ANIMAL WELFARE/ECOLOGY REF: CAB =A322,191 -=A327,669 p.a. Required to support the Department of Life Science's highly successful=20 established degree pathways including Animal Behaviour and Ecology and=20 Conservation as well as new programmes in Animal Welfare and Marine=20 Biology. The ability and enthusiasm to support potential future=20 developments in areas such as Veterinary Nursing Science is advantageous. Preferably you should have an agricultural, biological, psychological or=20 veterinary background with expertise in one or more of the following areas: -Animal psychology -Animal physiology, nutrition and health -Design of captive environments and role-of animals in society -Marine and general ecology, You must hold a first degree in a relevant area and suitable postgraduate=20 experience, preferably to PhD level, and be actively involved in scholarly= =20 activity in your area of expertise. Applications for fractional posts to complement outside consultancy or=20 veterinary practice are welcome. Appointment at Senior Lecturer level may=20 be made to appropriately qualified candidates. You will also have the=20 opportunity to become an active member of the School of Applied Sciences=20 Environmental Research Centre (www.apu.ac.uk/envsci) Further details can be obtained by following the link from our website:=20 www.apu.ac.uk/lifesci Details and application forms from the Human Resources Department, Anglia=20 Polytechnic University, East Road, Cambridge, CB1 1PT. Tel +44 (0)1223=20 363271 ext. 2459 (24 hours) email: jobs@apu.ac.uk or visit online at=20 www.apu.ac.uk/hr/jobs Closing date: 25 July 2003 It is hoped that interviews will take place on 12 August 2003 APU is committed to being an equal opportunities employer. From: IN%"aimmp@yahoo.com" "T Barber" 9-JUL-2003 06:27:56.12 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: cat behavioural problems and treatment Hello I am undertaking some research in the correlation between domestic cat behavioural problems and ownership style, and would like to get in contact with Dennis C Turner as well as any other people you know of that may be doing research in this area. I appreciate any help you can give me. Kind regards Tamzin Barber PH +44 (0)787 9466492 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From: IN%"da13y@hotmail.com" "daisy berthoud" 9-JUL-2003 07:02:34.96 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: post adoption questionnaire about dogs dear all, i am in the process of finnishing off a questionnaire that i will be sending out to 200 dog owners, who have adopted a dog from a local shelter in england. all these dogs have been temperament tested before being given into adoption and my questionnaire layout is very close to the check sheet shelter staff uses when testing the dog's temperament. i thought while i am sending out a questionnaire is might as well ask some more questions that might be of interest. because i am sure i am not thinking about many interesting things and am too focused on the test, i thought i would ask all of you. is there anything that might be interesting. maybe something about how much the dog's temperament/behaviour has changed over the last six months, how fast it has adapted into daily routines and much more. i would be happy to get some new input into my study. thank you in advance for your help, regards, daisy berthoud _________________________________________________________________ Sign-up for a FREE BT Broadband connection today! http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband From: IN%"da13y@hotmail.com" "daisy berthoud" 9-JUL-2003 07:03:31.31 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: post adoption questionnaire about dogs, addition ps: i am at anglia polytechnic university in cambridge and this will be my third year dissertation. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of 56k? Get a FREE BT Broadband connection http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband From: IN%"hmcmurra@elp.rr.com" "heather mcmurray" 9-JUL-2003 14:31:04.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"Urska.Kos@vf.uni-lj.si" "Kos Urska" CC: Subj: RE: Urgent - cockfights and letting the cock with paraschute from 1000 m asl hight Sporo=E8iloUmmm, if somestrapped me to a parachute and jumped out of a = plane, I would die of fear. You are talking about a domestic animal = not used to flying; and exposing it to the rapid changing of the = horizon-line and streaming visual imput of falling -- not to mention = being strapped (helpless)-- and the inner ear effects of altitude = loss/falling. I think anyone who does that is cruel, frankly. H. McMurray ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kos Urska=20 To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 4:14 AM Subject: Urgent - cockfights and letting the cock with paraschute from = 1000 m asl hight Dear members,=20 I would like to have your opinion on and if there is some scientific = literature of cock fights (how stresfull they are for animals, how much = a welfare is comprised during the fight or when breeding and training = for the fight). Another question is, does the cock that is packed in the = bag on the back of the person who jumps with parashute suffers and how = much? My opinion on the latter is that this isonly a short term suffering if = the cock is not used to be in the bag toghether with termal changes that = can compromise the health of the animal, but if it is only one occasion = it would not be a huge welfare problem for the cock (more of a problem = if it was slaughtered afterwards without stunning).... Thanks for your comments... Ur=B9ka=20 mag. Ur=B9ka Kos, dr.vet.med.=20 Veterinary Faculty University of LJubljana=20 1115 Ljubljana=20 tel. 00 386 1 4779 142=20 fax. ++ 386 1 2832 243=20 e-mail: urska.kos@vf.uni-lj.si=20 From: IN%"cgoldsch@uoguelph.ca" "Carol Goldschmidt" 10-JUL-2003 07:21:16.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Through a plexiglass darkly Dear Colleagues, I have a practical question: Does anyone know of an easy method to darken the material known variously as Perspex / Plexiglass / Acrylic sheet? We have been making some "hides" and incorporating Plexiglass windows (I have found that Grad Students are not to be trusted with breakable materials like glass!). There are now lots of kits available with sheets of film for darkening car windows - there is even a choice of percentage of light and heat transmission! However, in the instructions for these kits, there is a clear warning NOT TO BE USED ON PLEXIGLASS. (Much to the chagrin of a Scotsman, this warning is NOT on the packaging - so only becomes known when the kit is bought and opened!). Apparently the adhesive on the film causes acrylic to become cloudy. So... any suggestions for darkening Plexiglass would be gratefully received. Yours, Ian D. -- Ian J.H. Duncan, Professor of Applied Ethology, Chair in Animal Welfare, Department of Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada Telephone: (519) 824 4120 ext 53652 FAX: (519) 836 9873 E-mail iduncan@uoguelph.ca From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 10-JUL-2003 07:42:27.12 To: IN%"cgoldsch@uoguelph.ca" "Carol Goldschmidt" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Through a plexiglass darkly Ian, Dark acrylic is available off the shelves - although I suspect you already know this and you are simply trying to find an inexpensive way of converting the windows that you have installed. One advantage of the material that we have used is that it is relatively transparent to IR, so it is possible to film animals (e.g. in shelters made of the acrylic) even when we can't see them. Hope you find a solution. Chris On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:20:58 -0400 Carol Goldschmidt wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I have a practical question: Does anyone know of an easy method to > darken the material known variously as Perspex / Plexiglass / Acrylic > sheet? We have been making some "hides" and incorporating Plexiglass > windows (I have found that Grad Students are not to be trusted with > breakable materials like glass!). There are now lots of kits available > with sheets of film for darkening car windows - there is even a choice > of percentage of light and heat transmission! However, in the > instructions for these kits, there is a clear warning NOT TO BE USED ON > PLEXIGLASS. (Much to the chagrin of a Scotsman, this warning is NOT on > the packaging - so only becomes known when the kit is bought and > opened!). Apparently the adhesive on the film causes acrylic to become > cloudy. So... any suggestions for darkening Plexiglass would be > gratefully received. > > Yours, > > Ian D. > -- > Ian J.H. Duncan, > Professor of Applied Ethology, > Chair in Animal Welfare, > Department of Animal and Poultry Science, > University of Guelph, > Guelph, > Ontario N1G 2W1, > Canada > > Telephone: (519) 824 4120 ext 53652 > FAX: (519) 836 9873 > E-mail iduncan@uoguelph.ca > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology, Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, BS40 5DU, U.K. Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 10-JUL-2003 08:09:03.66 To: IN%"cgoldsch@uoguelph.ca" "Carol Goldschmidt", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Through a plexiglass darkly I don't know if it is ok to use on Plexiglas but I think it is ok for plastic/acrylic aquariums. There is a product to decorate the back or sides of tanks that is a liquid brushed on and when dry produces a crystal type pattern. It comes in different colors, some may be translucent or opaque. Julie Alexander ----- Original Message ----- From: Carol Goldschmidt To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:20 AM Subject: Through a plexiglass darkly Dear Colleagues, I have a practical question: Does anyone know of an easy method to darken the material known variously as Perspex / Plexiglass / Acrylic sheet? We have been making some "hides" and incorporating Plexiglass windows (I have found that Grad Students are not to be trusted with breakable materials like glass!). There are now lots of kits available with sheets of film for darkening car windows - there is even a choice of percentage of light and heat transmission! However, in the instructions for these kits, there is a clear warning NOT TO BE USED ON PLEXIGLASS. (Much to the chagrin of a Scotsman, this warning is NOT on the packaging - so only becomes known when the kit is bought and opened!). Apparently the adhesive on the film causes acrylic to become cloudy. So... any suggestions for darkening Plexiglass would be gratefully received. Yours, Ian D. -- Ian J.H. Duncan, Professor of Applied Ethology, Chair in Animal Welfare, Department of Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada Telephone: (519) 824 4120 ext 53652 FAX: (519) 836 9873 E-mail iduncan@uoguelph.ca From: IN%"csermely@biol.unipr.it" "Davide Csermely" 10-JUL-2003 10:08:49.62 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Through a plexiglass darkly >I have a practical question: Does anyone know of an easy method to >darken the material known variously as Perspex / Plexiglass / Acrylic >sheet? We have been making some "hides" and incorporating Plexiglass >windows (I have found that Grad Students are not to be trusted with >breakable materials like glass!). There are now lots of kits available >with sheets of film for darkening car windows - there is even a choice >of percentage of light and heat transmission! However, in the >instructions for these kits, there is a clear warning NOT TO BE USED ON >PLEXIGLASS. (Much to the chagrin of a Scotsman, this warning is NOT on >the packaging - so only becomes known when the kit is bought and >opened!). Apparently the adhesive on the film causes acrylic to become >cloudy. So... any suggestions for darkening Plexiglass would be >gratefully received. > >Yours, > >Ian D. >-- >Ian J.H. Duncan, >Professor of Applied Ethology, >Chair in Animal Welfare, >Department of Animal and Poultry Science, >University of Guelph, >Guelph, >Ontario N1G 2W1, >Canada > >Telephone: (519) 824 4120 ext 53652 >FAX: (519) 836 9873 >E-mail iduncan@uoguelph.ca Dear Ian, I used a darkening film, which also creates a one-way visibility. It is not adhesive, but is applied using the adhesive effect of wetting the surface to be covered and pressing the film on the window with a spatula. Its removal is therefore very simple, because there are no adhesive substances. Best wishes, Davide PLEASE NOTE MY NEW ADDRESS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Museo di Storia Naturale, Universita` di Parma, Via Farini 90, 43100 Parma, Italy Tel: (+39)052 123 6465 Fax: (+39)052 153 3673 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 10-JUL-2003 10:46:19.05 To: IN%"cgoldsch@uoguelph.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Through a plexiglass darkly This question is best directed to the sci.chem newsgroup. I would think that you would more want something partly mirrored rather than darkened. From: IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk" "Francis Burton" 10-JUL-2003 11:34:16.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Through a plexiglass darkly At 09:20 10/07/03 -0400, Carol Goldschmidt wrote: >I have a practical question: Does anyone know of an easy method to >darken the material known variously as Perspex / Plexiglass / Acrylic >sheet? Carol - If you don't mind the plexiglass and darkening sheet not being bonded together tightly, how about the kind of coloured "celluloid" (actually polycarbonate) film that is used in theatre lighting? Several companies make this stuff, which is water and heat resistant. The one I know about, because I have a booklet of their test filters, is Rosco (a Canadian company), see: http://www.rosco-ca.com/products/filters/index.cfm?fuseaction=Roscolux Francis From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 11-JUL-2003 20:40:14.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Urgent - cockfights and letting the cock with paraschute from 1000m asl hight Heather MacMurray wrote: > Ummm, if somestrapped me to a parachute and jumped out of a plane, I would die of fear. You are talking about a domestic > animal not used to flying; and exposing it to the rapid changing of the horizon-line and streaming visual imput of falling -- not to > mention being strapped (helpless)-- and the inner ear effects of altitude loss/falling. > > I think anyone who does that is cruel, frankly. Yet another HTML-formatted post I had to cut and paste to reply to. I will endorse the request that list mail be posted in plain text only. Many lists will not even allow non-text postings. ************** You would die of fear, but you are not a bird. Birds fly; apes including man break bones, or worse, if they fall. Fear of falling makes perfect sense for a tree-climbing mammal (or its no longer tree-climbing descendants ) but not so much for a bird, even a domestic one whose flight ability is more or less impaired by e.g. large size (the bird doesn't know that). I'm not quite sure why anyone would jump from an airplane with a bird in their backpack (at least that was what I understood) but in that case there is presumably no visual input. Birds have, however, very good inertial sensors. My own experience in transporting falcons (hooded and otherwise) by aircraft might be relevant (I think whether the bird is "domestic" or not is probably irrelevant, but previous experience might indeed play a role in the subjective experience as it certainly does in the response, see below). Raptors transported by air are often blindfolded (hooded) and almost always enclosed in a crate or box of some kind. If the box is properly designed that works well enough, in the sense that the bird arrives at the other end undamaged and also apparently unaffected psychologically. It also prevents, however, anyone from observing the bird's reactions during the flight. Feather damage is infrequent but not impossible, even in the best designed box. I have preferred, whenever possible (probably not these days on airliners), to transport falcons sitting on my gloved fist, where I could intervene to prevent damage if the bird became excited. During a number of years in which I was actively involved both in raptor rehabilitation and in falconry, I had occasion to transport a fair number of falcons in that way, both on commercial airline flights and in various private aircraft. I have travelled, via commercial airliner, with as many as four falcons on my arm at one time. It is, when permitted, the best and gentlest way to move a falcon any greater distance. What I observed was, first, that the birds even when blindfolded are undoubtedly aware they are airborne. A common reaction, as soon as the aircraft leaves the ground, is to spread the wings and flap them. If the birds are tame it is usually possible to calm them by touching them (don't ask me to explain why a trained falcon finds that reassuring, that would take us far afield ). They continue to respond, however, to each change of direction or attitude of the aircraft. It is very clear they are acutely aware of their position and movements in space. If you have a nervous bird which will not settle, it often helps to remove the hood, either momentarily or altogether depending on the bird's response. The bird looks around, finds itself surrounded by people behaving apparently normally, and its alarm subsides. Some will travel better hooded, becoming alarmed if they can see the surroundings; others travel better unhooded, and some of them apparently enjoy peering out the window, especially in a small plane which of course offers better visibility than an airliner. As one might perhaps expect, the birds quickly become accustomed to travelling by air and reactions such as those I just described are practically confined to "first time fliers." After a couple of trips they become positively blasé about the whole business ... even when transported in the rough and noisy cargo hold of a C-130 military transport. The same was true of my hounds which accompanied me on many of those trips. Both they and the falcons logged a lot of "frequent flier miles" and took the whole thing very much in stride. I never tried parachute jumping with a falcon, but of course in daily life they are quite accustomed to falling at much higher speeds than achieved by any parachute! As for "not used to flying" - well, even chickens do fly, though perhaps not very well, and gamecocks probably fly better than most domestic poultry, being not so very different in size and structure from their wild ancestors. At any rate, as birds, they are certain equipped with the appropriate sensors and neural mechanisms for dealing with the experience of flight. A bird's response to being dropped is not the "clutch reflex" typical of humans and at least many other mammals, but instead to spread the wings and flap (as noted above for airborne, blindfolded falcons). I don't know what one can say about the subjective experience. Bird brains are wired so differently from mammalian ones that I think here we are practically limited to speculation, and to (IMO questionable) inferences from analogous behavior if present. I have spent a good deal of my life in rather intimate association with various bird species (including corvids and psittacines as well as raptors) and been the recipient of a lot of bird social behavior directed toward myself, not all of it the result of imprinting. I would not wish to pretend I know much about what any of those birds experienced subjectively ... even the very social corvids and psittacines whose behavior often seems so very "human-like" and with whom one can have long lasting, undoubtedly profound and also undoubtedly emotional relationships - by which I mean, profound and emotional from the bird's point of view as well as one's own. John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 14-JUL-2003 02:23:49.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology", IN%"LAREF@yahoogroups.com" "LAREF" CC: Subj: marking small rodents for video recording Dear all, We plan to video-record groups (3-5 animals) of laboratory mice (black!) and would like to be able to identify the individual animals from the video recordings. If any of you have done this with mice or other small rodents, I'd be grateful to hear of your experiences. Best wishes Anna Olsson Anna Olsson Postdoctoral research fellow Animal Behaviour & Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Faz +351 22 609 9157