From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 2-JUL-2005 20:29:44.02 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction shelley lower wrote: > > Hello all, > My name is Shelley and I am currently interested in > interacting in the most natural and stress free way > with laboratory animals, specifically chimpanzees and > monkeys. I am very interested in learning complex > postures and facial expressions so as to communicate > and understand these animals as much as possible. I am surely not the only one who thinks that in a laboratory setting monkeys and _a fortiori_ chimpanzees are inevitably going to be under considerable stress, and anyone trying to understand their behavior will have to feel the way through a considerable layer of behavioral "artifacts"??? I realize that's an "unhelpful" remark, but I would have thought that to understand the "vocabulary" of laboratory monkeys or chimps it would be very helpful to know as much as possible about their communicative behavior in a more natural setting. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" 2-JUL-2005 21:16:51.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction Hi Shelley, I have worked with primates in lab settings. I was the original trainer for the project that went on to become "Helping Hands for the Handicapped". More often now, I work with primates in zoo settings. However, I still know the whereabouts of two of the lab monkeys, and both seem to be well-adjusted and going strong. The elder is 29 years old. What John says may certainly be true. However, I can reccommend that you can interact with your laboratory primates in a very stress-free way (even if the environment is not stress free, and the primates themselves, or even you, are not stress free). That is to say, there is a system for communication with primates that will probably lower their stress levels rather than raising them in any significant way. This system is referred to as SATS. It is a system that allows you to develop concepts and vocabulary with animals very quickly. You can then demonstrate that you need them to understand, and even ask for their feedback and information. Animals can quickly learn the names of their cage features, caretakers, procedures, events, foods, toys and more. Once you are proficient at it, it takes less than five minutes to introduce the animals (any type) to the basics. Rather than try to mimic primate signals, it may be easier to simply agree between both parties (human primate and non-human primate) to have a new, common set of communicators, which can be definitely defined as the teaching progresses and the system unfolds. For example, usually the first two signals taught are the bridges, which tell the animal either that he has successfully met your request, or that he is making progress toward that. The third signal is the target, which shows the animal where he has to make contact in order to get bridged. From there, we often teach duration on the target, so that we can start to examine animals, perform husbandry procedures, and show them more information. Commonly we will teach several body parts, left, right, up, down and break, in a first session. We might also teach "go to" in the first session. A session will normally last no more than 20 minutes and is often just a few moments long. Second session, there might be a short review, and then more concepts and actions - for example, we might name other caretakers and individuals and have the animal go to those people, we might name various objects, and have the animal identify those for us (verifying that he understands their names). More work would be done on husbandry procedures and on the duration, as many necessary procedures, such as blood draws, may take up to a minute to perform. You can progress, in totally mutual and voluntary way, and with an investment of as little as 15 minutes a week, be able to collect blood in three weeks or less. We can also teach the animals to understand calmness, and to maintain calm in the face of challenge. This can be a really important life skill for anyone, and may give the animals important coping skills for the stress of confinement. In addition, the creation of the vocabulary and concepts seems to be very rewarding to the animals. They are almost always eager to come to a session. Directions for conditioning the bridges and target are located at: http://www.synalia.com/articles/bridges.html For more information, you can go to: http://www.synalia.com I am the founder of this system, and the information above is offered for free in order to help people such as yourself get started in improving conditions for their animals. Please let me know how you get on if you decide to try this for yourself. Best wishes, Kayce Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems (SATS) http://www.synalia.com 1719 Kingston Avenue, Suite D, Norfolk, VA 23505 > shelley lower wrote: >> >> Hello all, >> My name is Shelley and I am currently interested in >> interacting in the most natural and stress free way >> with laboratory animals, specifically chimpanzees and >> monkeys. I am very interested in learning complex >> postures and facial expressions so as to communicate >> and understand these animals as much as possible. > > I am surely not the only one who thinks that in a laboratory setting > monkeys and > _a fortiori_ chimpanzees are inevitably going to be under considerable > stress, > and anyone trying to understand their behavior will have to feel the way > through > a considerable layer of behavioral "artifacts"??? > > I realize that's an "unhelpful" remark, but I would have thought that to > understand the "vocabulary" of laboratory monkeys or chimps it would be > very > helpful to know as much as possible about their communicative behavior in > a more > natural setting. > > John > -- > Dr. John Burchard > Tepe Gawra Salukis > http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ > saluqi@ix.netcom.com > Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com From: IN%"Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk" "Moira Harris" 3-JUL-2005 12:10:02.59 To: IN%"kc@synalia.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction Dear Kayce, This sounds fantastic! Have you written it up for publication? If so, I'd be glad of the references. In the meantime, could you answer a few questions? For example, there are many definitions of 'stress'. Which did you use? How did you measure animals' stress, before and after instigating this communication system to lower stress levels? Did you observe behaviour, measure physiological levels of 'stress' hormones, eg glucocorticoids, or some other measure? By how much did stress decrease? Was this consistent across individuals of both sexes and different ages? How long were these effects sustained? Maintaining calm in the face of challenge sounds a little similar to learned helplessness. Could you explain how the two differ? Best wishes, - Moira --On 02 July 2005 23:15 -0400 Kayce Cover wrote: > Hi Shelley, > > I have worked with primates in lab settings. I was the original trainer > for the project that went on to become "Helping Hands for the > Handicapped". More often now, I work with primates in zoo settings. > However, I still know the whereabouts of two of the lab monkeys, and both > seem to be well-adjusted and going strong. The elder is 29 years old. > > What John says may certainly be true. However, I can reccommend that you > can interact with your laboratory primates in a very stress-free way (even > if the environment is not stress free, and the primates themselves, or > even you, are not stress free). That is to say, there is a system for > communication with primates that will probably lower their stress levels > rather than raising them in any significant way. > > This system is referred to as SATS. It is a system that allows you to > develop concepts and vocabulary with animals very quickly. You can then > demonstrate that you need them to understand, and even ask for their > feedback and information. Animals can quickly learn the names of their > cage features, caretakers, procedures, events, foods, toys and more. Once > you are proficient at it, it takes less than five minutes to introduce the > animals (any type) to the basics. Rather than try to mimic primate > signals, it may be easier to simply agree between both parties (human > primate and non-human primate) to have a new, common set of communicators, > which can be definitely defined as the teaching progresses and the system > unfolds. > > For example, usually the first two signals taught are the bridges, which > tell the animal either that he has successfully met your request, or that > he is making progress toward that. The third signal is the target, which > shows the animal where he has to make contact in order to get bridged. > From there, we often teach duration on the target, so that we can start to > examine animals, perform husbandry procedures, and show them more > information. Commonly we will teach several body parts, left, right, up, > down and break, in a first session. We might also teach "go to" in the > first session. A session will normally last no more than 20 minutes and > is often just a few moments long. > > Second session, there might be a short review, and then more concepts and > actions - for example, we might name other caretakers and individuals and > have the animal go to those people, we might name various objects, and > have the animal identify those for us (verifying that he understands their > names). More work would be done on husbandry procedures and on the > duration, as many necessary procedures, such as blood draws, may take up > to a minute to perform. > > You can progress, in totally mutual and voluntary way, and with an > investment of as little as 15 minutes a week, be able to collect blood in > three weeks or less. > > We can also teach the animals to understand calmness, and to maintain calm > in the face of challenge. This can be a really important life skill for > anyone, and may give the animals important coping skills for the stress of > confinement. In addition, the creation of the vocabulary and concepts > seems to be very rewarding to the animals. They are almost always eager > to come to a session. > > Directions for conditioning the bridges and target are located at: > http://www.synalia.com/articles/bridges.html > > For more information, you can go to: http://www.synalia.com > > I am the founder of this system, and the information above is offered for > free in order to help people such as yourself get started in improving > conditions for their animals. Please let me know how you get on if you > decide to try this for yourself. > > Best wishes, > Kayce > > Kayce Cover > Syn Alia Training Systems (SATS) > http://www.synalia.com > 1719 Kingston Avenue, Suite D, > Norfolk, VA 23505 > > >> shelley lower wrote: >>> >>> Hello all, >>> My name is Shelley and I am currently interested in >>> interacting in the most natural and stress free way >>> with laboratory animals, specifically chimpanzees and >>> monkeys. I am very interested in learning complex >>> postures and facial expressions so as to communicate >>> and understand these animals as much as possible. >> >> I am surely not the only one who thinks that in a laboratory setting >> monkeys and >> _a fortiori_ chimpanzees are inevitably going to be under considerable >> stress, >> and anyone trying to understand their behavior will have to feel the way >> through >> a considerable layer of behavioral "artifacts"??? >> >> I realize that's an "unhelpful" remark, but I would have thought that to >> understand the "vocabulary" of laboratory monkeys or chimps it would be >> very >> helpful to know as much as possible about their communicative behavior in >> a more >> natural setting. >> >> John >> -- >> Dr. John Burchard >> Tepe Gawra Salukis >> http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ >> saluqi@ix.netcom.com >> > > > Kayce Cover > Syn Alia Training Systems > http://www.synalia.com > ------------------------------------- Dr. Moira Harris Dept. Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol moira.harris@bristol.ac.uk 0117 928 9404 From: IN%"skelligsvet@hotmail.com" "Aoife Ortega O'Sullivan" 3-JUL-2005 20:33:53.20 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: canine epilepsy El 10 de Abril vuelve a convulsionar varias veces en el día, así como venía ocurriendo los meses anteriores. Agotadas ya las posibilidades y después de haber acudido a tres veterinarios diferentes sin haber obtenido resultados gratos, me puse a buscar en Internet información, en donde supimos que a perros y gato epilépticos se les da Fenobarbital e incluso se le podría agregar Bromuro Potásico para el tratamiento adecuado, e incluso menciona que es el tratamiento más certero y eficaz. Hi everyone! I need an advice, Im a studying Veterinary science in Universidad Veracruzana, we have a patient with canine epilepsy, It has been treated with many things with different doctor, now The patient arrived with us. We searching for new treatments and we found one phenobarbital and potassium bromide, I would like to have your opinions please!! or any other advice that could help us treating our new patient!! thanks for your time!! sincerely Aoife Ortega _________________________________________________________________ Descarga gratis la Barra de Herramientas de MSN http://www.msn.es/usuario/busqueda/barra?XAPID=2031&DI=1055&SU=http%3A//www.hotmail.com&HL=LINKTAG1OPENINGTEXT_MSNBH From: IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com" "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc." 4-JUL-2005 11:18:26.29 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) Found this interesting.=20 Vivian Sunday, Jul. 03, 2005 Honor Among Beasts Think altruism, empathy and a sense of fair play are traits only = humans possess? Think again By MICHAEL D. LEMONICK=20 Anyone who has owned dogs or spent much time watching them is = familiar with the posture: hind end up, chest down on the ground, = forelegs stretched forward, an eager expression on the face. It's = obviously a friendly, playful gesture, and for most dog lovers, that's = all you need to know. Ethologists--animal-behavior experts--go a step = further. They call this move the "play bow" and know it's used not just = by dogs but also by wolves and coyotes to signal an interest in the = romping, pretend-fighting sort of games that canines of all kinds seem = to love. But Marc Bekoff, an ethologist at the University of Colorado, = always suspected there was something more going on. True, the posture = happens most often at the beginning of a bout of canine play. But it = also happens in the middle, and not randomly. And the more closely = Bekoff observed dog behavior, the more he began to recognize other = ritualized motions and postures--some of them so fleeting that he = couldn't really keep track. So he began making videotapes, then playing = them back one frame at a time. "The more details I saw, the more = interesting it got," he recalls. "It wasn't just dogs playing; it was = also dogs exchanging an incredible amount of information as they = played." In short, Bekoff was able to show--after at least a decade of = painstaking observation and analysis--that canine play is actually a = complex social interaction in which the participants constantly signal = their intentions and check to make sure their behavior is correctly = interpreted. Dogs that cheat--promising a playful bite but delivering a = harsh one, for example--tend to be ostracized. That understanding is nothing short of revolutionary. Only a = decade or so ago, scientists were arguing vigorously over whether = animals had emotions: just because a dog looks sad or a chimp appears to = be embarrassed doesn't mean it really is, the skeptics said. That = argument is pretty much over. The idea of animal emotion is now accepted = as part of mainstream biology. And thanks to Bekoff and other = researchers, ethologists are also starting to accept the once radical = idea that some animals--primarily the social ones such as dogs, chimps, = hyenas, monkeys, dolphins, birds and even rats--possess not just raw = emotions but also subtler and more sophisticated mental states, = including envy, empathy, altruism and a sense of fairness. "They have = the ingredients we use for morality," says Frans de Waal, a professor of = primate behavior at Emory University in Atlanta, referring to the = monkeys and chimps he studies. That doesn't mean animals necessarily have a fully developed moral = or ethical sense. "I don't say dogs are fair the way you and I are fair, = or have the same moral systems," says Bekoff. But it does mean that-- = just as with so many other attributes once considered unique to humans, = including toolmaking and language--animals have at least rudimentary = versions of what we call morality. That would conform to Darwin's ideas = of evolution, and indeed, Darwin himself was convinced this must be = true. "It would be bad evolutionary biology," says Bekoff, "to assume = that moral behavior just pops on the scene only with us." Study after study bears him out. In one of De Waal's experiments = at Atlanta's Yerkes Regional Primate Research Center, for example, pairs = of capuchin monkeys (the species favored by organ grinders) have to = cooperate in dragging a heavy tray so they can get the food on it. They = quickly figure out how to do so, sharing the effort and the food. But = when the food is placed on one side of the tray, giving only one monkey = access to it, they still share. "There is no need for the one who gets = all the food to do it," says De Waal. "He could sit in the corner and = eat all by himself." In another experiment, De Waal and his students reward two monkeys = for a task by giving them cucumber. It's not a favorite food, but they = happily go on doing the task anyway. Then the scientists begin giving = one of the monkeys grapes--like caviar for a capuchin. At that point, = the monkey that is still getting cucumber refuses to play. Says De Waal: = "It's like me discovering my colleague, who works just as hard as I do, = gets a salary that is twice the size of mine. I was perfectly happy = before." Both those results can be explained in part by self-interest. But = De Waal has also observed behavior that can be seen only as empathetic. = When a male loses a fight and sits on the floor screaming, the other = chimps will comfort it. "They come over to these distressed individuals = and embrace them and kiss them and groom them, and try to calm them = down," De Waal says. True, there's an implied benefit for the = comforters--the hope that others will do the same for them if they end = up in that situation--but that's a level of emotional abstraction that = would once have been presumed impossible. At TerraMar Research on Bainbridge Island, Wash., animal = behaviorist Toni Frohoff has also observed dolphins behaving with what = appears to be altruism--although not predictably. In one case, she = recalls, she and her colleagues watched a group of dolphins assemble = around a female swimmer the researchers later learned was exhausted to = the point at which she was afraid for her life. "Conversely," Frohoff = says, "I have been 'abandoned' [by dolphins], where all of a sudden = they'd disappear and I'd see a shark." Does that mean the supposed altruism of dolphins--not just in = Frohoff's studies but also in anecdotal reports of the animals' rescuing = sailors--is a myth? No, she says: "The mythology in some cases is true." = But dolphins have adapted so long in such a different environment to = humans that there's reason to suppose that their ethics might be equally = different to ours. Dolphins, dogs and primates are the usual suspects when scientists = talk about higher mental functions, but fairness, at least, extends even = deeper into the lower animal kingdom. If you watch rats wrestle, says = Steven Sivy, a biologist at Gettysburg College, you'll see that the = bigger rat lets the smaller rat win every now and then so that the = smaller rat will keep playing. That, he says, could be interpreted as a = sense of fair play, although he emphasizes that a rat's behavior is = probably Darwinian--based not on thoughtful consideration but on what = has worked in the past to keep species alive. "I can't see a rat sitting = around and contemplating the ethical consequences of what it's doing," = he says. At Bowling Green State University in Kentucky, psychologist Jaak = Panskepp is similarly leery of using words like morality and ethics to = describe animal behavior. He is sure that rats and other animals do = experience joy, sadness, anger and fear--because the wiring of the brain = is set up to generate those feelings. (Actually, Panskepp discovered a = few years ago that rats chirp in laughter, albeit in response to = tickling, and in a register too high for the human ear to detect.) = Nobody has yet found the neurocircuits for ethics or morality, however, = so Panskepp is reluctant to comment about those qualities. But he does = accept that some animals have strict rules of behavior. "Cockroaches = probably don't have a sense of justice," says Panskepp. But dogs and = rats, which are social animals, clearly do. So do birds, says Dan Blumstein, a former student of Bekoff's, now = studying animal behavior at UCLA. While he hasn't addressed the question = through formal research, Blumstein has seen hints of behavioral rules in = songbirds. A given species tends to have similar songs but with local = "dialects" that vary from one territory to another. If a bird sings with = a nonlocal accent, he says, "everybody knows: 'Oh, my God, there's an = invader.' Then they get upset and kick it out." The question, Blumstein = says, is whether that's a sign of ethics or just instinct. While some behaviors are obviously instinctive, Bekoff is = convinced that others are not. "If you study animals in the complex = social environments in which they live," he says, "it's impossible for = everything they do to be hardwired, with no conscious thought. It really = is." And once again, he cites play as perhaps the most obvious example. = Play between dogs involves extremely complex, precise behavior, he says. = "They're really close, they're mouthing, but they don't bite their own = lips; they almost never bite the lip of the other animal hard, nor the = eyes, nor the ears." And that requires communication and constant = feedback. "Just think of basketball players faking left and going = right," says Bekoff. "There's no way you could be doing that by pure = instinct." As for the play bow, his guess that it meant more than just "Let's = play" turned out to be correct. "It says, 'I want to play with you' but = also 'I'm sorry I bit you so hard' or 'I'm going to bite you hard, but = don't take it seriously.'" It even works between species: Bekoff has = seen wild coyotes bow to dogs--and vice versa--before they engage in = something like play. "At least they don't fight," says Bekoff. "The play = bow changes the whole mood." Meanwhile, dishonesty is punished across all canid species. "I = know coyotes best," says Bekoff. "Coyotes will signal play and then try = to fight or mate with others, but if they do that enough, they can't get = other animals to play." Does that behavior rise to the level of ethics = or morality? If morality is simply living by the rules of a society, = says hyena expert Christine Drea of Duke University, then yes, animals = do that. But just because animals have rules and bad things can happen = when those aren't followed, she says, "doesn't mean they're ethical = creatures." But while animals may not possess true ethics or morality, Bekoff, = De Waal and a growing number of their colleagues think fairness and = cooperation may be the forerunners of those qualities, just as the = apelike brain of our distant ancestor Lucy was the forerunner of our = own, much more sophisticated minds. After all, Lucy was no Einstein-but = without her, the leap from the tiny brains of primitive mammals to the = subtle intelligence of an Einstein could never have occurred. --Reported = by Dan Cray/Los Angeles and Wendy Grossman/Houston =20 =20 Copyright =A9 2005 Time Inc. All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited. = http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1079521,00.html From: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE" 4-JUL-2005 11:58:25.38 To: IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com" "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc.", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) Interesting. My work has been observational since I lack university = funding. However, over two decades ago, I began studying dogs' = non-verbal communication on my own. Then, in 1989, I wrote the below = paper. Steve Stephen C. Rafe B.S., M.S., Doctorate in progress (Helping dogs and their owners and trainers use positive, behavior-based = methods for over 20 years.) STARFIRE P.O. Box 8241 Reston, VA 20195 Email: rapport@comcast.net Website: http://www.starfire-rapport.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- WHAT IS YOUR DOG'S BODY TELLING YOU? =20 By: Stephen C. Rafe Copyright 1989, Stephen C. Rafe. All Rights Reserved.=20 =20 Some years ago, when an experienced dog person told me that a dog is = capable of transmitting some 200 non-verbal signals per minute, and that = other dogs could "read" them just as rapidly. When I first heard this, I = wondered just where all these signals were supposed to come from, and = how there could be so many. Of course, I knew that dogs had to depend = more heavily upon their body language than people do since they have so = few vocalizations (whines, barks, growls, etc.) I also knew their = messages had to be understood clearly, the first time, since they were = incapable of falling back on humans' old standby, "You know what I = mean." =20 But 200 signals a minute? How could that be, when the dog is generally = said to exhibit only eight to ten tail postures, and ten to twelve = facial postures? But, then what about shoulder, back, and leg postures? = And what about separating mouth positions from ear positions? =20 Let's say that we can agree that the dog can display only two distinctly = different shoulder postures (slumped and broadened), three back postures = (arched, "normal" and sagging) and three to five leg positions (ranging = from raised paw to bent legs, to stiff legs). Even so, it is still hard = to figure how he can transmit even dozens of signals per minute. =20 That is, until we realize that the dog has at least the theoretical = ability to use each one of these in combination with each of the other = positions each other body part is capable of displaying. Tail position = #1, for instance, might be used with at least ten different ear = positions, ten different mouth positions, two shoulder positions, three = back positions, and at least three leg positions.=20 =20 To get an idea of the magnitude, we need to look at the first group: Item Body Part A Tail (10) B Legs (3)=20 C Back (3) D Shoulders (2) E Head (2) F Ears (10) G Eyes w/Brow (2) H Mouth (10) =20 Put each body part into one of these positions and you come up with only = one total non-verbal signal, you say? And that, therefore, the dog has = only a total of nine -- items A through H? Or perhaps you might agree = that there could be as many different non-verbal messages as there are = tail positions? Or mouth positions? Or eye positions? Or ear positions? =20 That would seem logical, at least until you realize that Item A's first = position could be used with each of Item B's three positions, without = changing anything in Items C, D, E, F, G, and H. Then, the same thing = can be done with Item A's second position, third position, fourth = position, and so on right through the tenth position.=20 =20 Now, lest that also seem too easy, consider this: You have to do the = same with all of B's positions juxtaposed against each of the others. = And on it goes. Here's only a partial illustration of how to begin to = examine the problem, using the least number of positions possible for = each body part: =20 A1 B2 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 A1 B3 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 A1 B1 C2 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 A1 B1 C3 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 A1 B1 C1 D2 E1 F1 G1 H1 A1 B1 C1 D1 E2 F1 G1 H1 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F2 G1 H1 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F3 G1 H1 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F4 G1 H1 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F5 G1 H1 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F6 G1 H1 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F7 G1 H1 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F8 G1 H1 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F9 G1 H1 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F10 G1 H1 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G2 H1 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H2 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H3 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H4 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H5 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H6 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H7 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H8 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H9 A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H10 =20 That's twenty-five combinations, or separate and distinct messages, so = far. And we have yet to move from Position A1 through each of the other = combinations with A2 through A10.At first glance, logic would tell us = that there have to be about 200 combinations available with A, alone, = before we even begin to move through the B's. Again, logic would tell us = we have at least another 200 more here, as well. Then what about all the = C's? The D's, the E's, F's, G's, and H's? We're certainly well over a = thousand possible combinations -- and we're just talking about nine = parts of the body: Tail, Legs, Back, Shoulders, Head, Ears, Eyes, and = Mouth. =20 But does that exhaust the possibilities? For certain, you say? Not from = the dog's viewpoint, and certainly not from the mathematician's who = devotes a career to figuring out things like this. I'm told that = according to the rules of mathematics, you have to factor in each part = times the number of signals it can transmit, times the total number of = available parts, times the number of signals they can transmit. This = would mean: Ten A's times Three B's, times Three C's, times Two D's, times Two E's, = times 10 F's, times Two G's, times Ten H's. Or: 10 x 3 =3D 30 x 3 =3D 90 = x 2 =3D 180 x 2 =3D 360 x 10 =3D 3,600 x 2 =3D 7,200 x 10 =3D 72,000. =20 At this point, let's say we have completely identified all the various = positions the dog can assume for the body parts noted -- although we = certainly may have missed some. Now we are faced with the possibility = that a dog is capable of more than seventy thousand separate and = distinct non-verbal messages that can be transmitted, received, = understood, and acted upon with rarely a mis-interpretation. All this = from those "lowly" animals we call dogs. =20 -- xxx -- =20 =20 FOOTNOTE TO NON-VERBALS IN DOGS=20 Writing about communications signals in animals, researcher 1Tim = Halliday says:" Another important issue is the extent to which = aggressive signals are stereotyped, whether, by being variable in form, = they can convey information about an animal's level of aggressive = motiva=ADtion. There are major limitations in our ability as human = observers to detect small variations in the performance of animal = signals. A signal that appears to our senses to be very stereotyped may, = when analyzed in detail by means of cine film or sound spectrograph, = prove to be highly variable." =20 If we doubt a dog's ability to transmit this vast array of messages, we = need only refer to Halliday once more: "Jensen (1977) has analyzed the = threat signals of anoline lizards and has shown that they consist of a = basic display that is performed in conjunction with one or more = 'modifiers'." For example, in Anolis opalinus, Jensen (1979) has = described seven static and six dynamic modifiers that may be performed = in association with a basic head- bobbing threat display. "The static = modi=ADfiers consist of body postures. Dynamic modifiers are movements, = including rearing up, pulsed inflation of the dewlap and rolling the = head." =20 Says Halliday, "Jensen (1977) concludes from his studies of anoline = lizards that (the) display modifiers may convey more information than = the basic displays with which they are associated. While the basic = display indicates aggressive motivation, the modifiers signal the level = of that motivation." =20 "These examples emphasize the point that what at first may seem to be = very stereotyped displays prove on close analysis to be very variable = and to be capable of conveying quite complex inform=ADa=ADtion. Lizards = are able to convey subtle 'shades of meaning' when behaving aggressively = to one another," he concludes.=20 =20 1 "Information and Communication" by Tim Halliday, writing in Animal = Behaviour - 2, Communication" (A series edited by T. Halliday and P. J. = B. Slater -- W. H. Freeman and Company Publishers, New York/San = Francisco, 1983) =20 -----=20 But Marc Bekoff, an ethologist at the University of Colorado, always = suspected there was something more going on. True, the posture happens = most often at the beginning of a bout of canine play. But it also = happens in the middle, and not randomly. And the more closely Bekoff = observed dog behavior, the more he began to recognize other ritualized = motions and postures--some of them so fleeting that he couldn't really = keep track. So he began making videotapes, then playing them back one = frame at a time. "The more details I saw, the more interesting it got," = he recalls. "It wasn't just dogs playing; it was also dogs exchanging an = incredible amount of information as they played." In short, Bekoff was able to show--after at least a decade of = painstaking observation and analysis--that canine play is actually a = complex social interaction in which the participants constantly signal = their intentions and check to make sure their behavior is correctly = interpreted. Dogs that cheat--promising a playful bite but delivering a = harsh one, for example--tend to be ostracized. That understanding is nothing short of revolutionary. = From: IN%"ceann-icrc@lycos.com" "ceann lambert" 4-JUL-2005 20:07:59.35 To: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) I notice you didn't list piloerection of the fur along the back. (hackles) H1, H12, H123, H1234 CeAnn ----- Original Message ----- From: "STEPHEN RAFE" To: "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc." , Applied-et= hology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:57:43 -0400 >=20 > Interesting. My work has been observational since I lack university=20 > funding. However, over two decades ago, I began studying dogs'=20 > non-verbal communication on my own. Then, in 1989, I wrote the=20 > below paper. >=20 > Steve > Stephen C. Rafe > B.S., M.S., Doctorate in progress > (Helping dogs and their owners and trainers use positive,=20 > behavior-based methods for over 20 years.) > STARFIRE > P.O. Box 8241 > Reston, VA 20195 > Email: rapport@comcast.net > Website: http://www.starfire-rapport.com >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- >=20 > WHAT IS YOUR DOG'S BODY TELLING YOU? >=20 > By: Stephen C. Rafe > Copyright 1989, Stephen C. Rafe. All Rights Reserved. >=20 > Some years ago, when an experienced dog person told me that a dog=20 > is capable of transmitting some 200 non-verbal signals per minute,=20 > and that other dogs could "read" them just as rapidly. When I first=20 > heard this, I wondered just where all these signals were supposed=20 > to come from, and how there could be so many. Of course, I knew=20 > that dogs had to depend more heavily upon their body language than=20 > people do since they have so few vocalizations (whines, barks,=20 > growls, etc.) I also knew their messages had to be understood=20 > clearly, the first time, since they were incapable of falling back=20 > on humans' old standby, "You know what I mean." >=20 > But 200 signals a minute? How could that be, when the dog is=20 > generally said to exhibit only eight to ten tail postures, and ten=20 > to twelve facial postures? But, then what about shoulder, back, and=20 > leg postures? And what about separating mouth positions from ear=20 > positions? >=20 > Let's say that we can agree that the dog can display only two=20 > distinctly different shoulder postures (slumped and broadened),=20 > three back postures (arched, "normal" and sagging) and three to=20 > five leg positions (ranging from raised paw to bent legs, to stiff=20 > legs). Even so, it is still hard to figure how he can transmit even=20 > dozens of signals per minute. >=20 > That is, until we realize that the dog has at least the theoretical=20 > ability to use each one of these in combination with each of the=20 > other positions each other body part is capable of displaying. Tail=20 > position #1, for instance, might be used with at least ten=20 > different ear positions, ten different mouth positions, two=20 > shoulder positions, three back positions, and at least three leg=20 > positions. >=20 > To get an idea of the magnitude, we need to look at the first group: > Item Body Part > A Tail (10) > B Legs (3) > C Back (3) > D Shoulders (2) > E Head (2) > F Ears (10) > G Eyes w/Brow (2) > H Mouth (10) >=20 > Put each body part into one of these positions and you come up with=20 > only one total non-verbal signal, you say? And that, therefore, the=20 > dog has only a total of nine -- items A through H? Or perhaps you=20 > might agree that there could be as many different non-verbal=20 > messages as there are tail positions? Or mouth positions? Or eye=20 > positions? Or ear positions? >=20 > That would seem logical, at least until you realize that Item A's=20 > first position could be used with each of Item B's three positions,=20 > without changing anything in Items C, D, E, F, G, and H. Then, the=20 > same thing can be done with Item A's second position, third=20 > position, fourth position, and so on right through the tenth=20 > position. >=20 > Now, lest that also seem too easy, consider this: You have to do=20 > the same with all of B's positions juxtaposed against each of the=20 > others. And on it goes. Here's only a partial illustration of how=20 > to begin to examine the problem, using the least number of=20 > positions possible for each body part: >=20 > A1 B2 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 > A1 B3 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C2 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C3 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D2 E1 F1 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E2 F1 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F2 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F3 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F4 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F5 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F6 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F7 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F8 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F9 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F10 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G2 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H2 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H3 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H4 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H5 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H6 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H7 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H8 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H9 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H10 >=20 > That's twenty-five combinations, or separate and distinct messages,=20 > so far. And we have yet to move from Position A1 through each of=20 > the other combinations with A2 through A10.At first glance, logic=20 > would tell us that there have to be about 200 combinations=20 > available with A, alone, before we even begin to move through the=20 > B's. Again, logic would tell us we have at least another 200 more=20 > here, as well. Then what about all the C's? The D's, the E's, F's,=20 > G's, and H's? We're certainly well over a thousand possible=20 > combinations -- and we're just talking about nine parts of the=20 > body: Tail, Legs, Back, Shoulders, Head, Ears, Eyes, and Mouth. >=20 > But does that exhaust the possibilities? For certain, you say? Not=20 > from the dog's viewpoint, and certainly not from the=20 > mathematician's who devotes a career to figuring out things like=20 > this. I'm told that according to the rules of mathematics, you have=20 > to factor in each part times the number of signals it can transmit,=20 > times the total number of available parts, times the number of=20 > signals they can transmit. This would mean: >=20 > Ten A's times Three B's, times Three C's, times Two D's, times Two=20 > E's, times 10 F's, times Two G's, times Ten H's. Or: 10 x 3 =3D 30 x=20 > 3 =3D 90 x 2 =3D 180 x 2 =3D 360 x 10 =3D 3,600 x 2 =3D 7,200 x 10 =3D 72= ,000. >=20 > At this point, let's say we have completely identified all the=20 > various positions the dog can assume for the body parts noted --=20 > although we certainly may have missed some. Now we are faced with=20 > the possibility that a dog is capable of more than seventy thousand=20 > separate and distinct non-verbal messages that can be transmitted,=20 > received, understood, and acted upon with rarely a=20 > mis-interpretation. All this from those "lowly" animals we call=20 > dogs. >=20 > -- xxx -- >=20 >=20 > FOOTNOTE TO NON-VERBALS IN DOGS > Writing about communications signals in animals, researcher 1Tim=20 > Halliday says:" Another important issue is the extent to which=20 > aggressive signals are stereotyped, whether, by being variable in=20 > form, they can convey information about an animal's level of=20 > aggressive motiva=ADtion. There are major limitations in our ability=20 > as human observers to detect small variations in the performance of=20 > animal signals. A signal that appears to our senses to be very=20 > stereotyped may, when analyzed in detail by means of cine film or=20 > sound spectrograph, prove to be highly variable." >=20 > If we doubt a dog's ability to transmit this vast array of=20 > messages, we need only refer to Halliday once more: "Jensen (1977)=20 > has analyzed the threat signals of anoline lizards and has shown=20 > that they consist of a basic display that is performed in=20 > conjunction with one or more 'modifiers'." For example, in Anolis=20 > opalinus, Jensen (1979) has described seven static and six dynamic=20 > modifiers that may be performed in association with a basic head-=20 > bobbing threat display. "The static modi=ADfiers consist of body=20 > postures. Dynamic modifiers are movements, including rearing up,=20 > pulsed inflation of the dewlap and rolling the head." >=20 > Says Halliday, "Jensen (1977) concludes from his studies of anoline=20 > lizards that (the) display modifiers may convey more information=20 > than the basic displays with which they are associated. While the=20 > basic display indicates aggressive motivation, the modifiers signal=20 > the level of that motivation." >=20 > "These examples emphasize the point that what at first may seem to=20 > be very stereotyped displays prove on close analysis to be very=20 > variable and to be capable of conveying quite complex=20 > inform=ADa=ADtion. Lizards are able to convey subtle 'shades of=20 > meaning' when behaving aggressively to one another," he concludes. >=20 > 1 "Information and Communication" by Tim Halliday, writing in=20 > Animal Behaviour - 2, Communication" (A series edited by T.=20 > Halliday and P. J. B. Slater -- W. H. Freeman and Company=20 > Publishers, New York/San Francisco, 1983) >=20 > ----- > But Marc Bekoff, an ethologist at the University of Colorado,=20 > always suspected there was something more going on. True, the=20 > posture happens most often at the beginning of a bout of canine=20 > play. But it also happens in the middle, and not randomly. And the=20 > more closely Bekoff observed dog behavior, the more he began to=20 > recognize other ritualized motions and postures--some of them so=20 > fleeting that he couldn't really keep track. So he began making=20 > videotapes, then playing them back one frame at a time. "The more=20 > details I saw, the more interesting it got," he recalls. "It wasn't=20 > just dogs playing; it was also dogs exchanging an incredible amount=20 > of information as they played." > In short, Bekoff was able to show--after at least a decade of=20 > painstaking observation and analysis--that canine play is actually=20 > a complex social interaction in which the participants constantly=20 > signal their intentions and check to make sure their behavior is=20 > correctly interpreted. Dogs that cheat--promising a playful bite=20 > but delivering a harsh one, for example--tend to be ostracized. > That understanding is nothing short of revolutionary. CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org From: IN%"claire.diederich@fundp.ac.be" "Claire Diederich" 5-JUL-2005 01:16:53.97 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"anouck.haverbeke@fundp.ac.be" Subj: Stereotyped behaviours in dogs Dear List-members, I pass to you the message of Anouck Haverbeke, one of our PhD student. I hope that some of you may help her in search for a validated method to collect stereotyped behaviours from videotapes. Thank you in advance for your help. Yours sincerely, Claire Diederich, DVM, PhD Dept of Veterinary Medicine University of Namur, Belgium ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am actually studying the abnormal stereotyped behaviours of military working dogs in kennels. Fraser & Broom (1990) defined stereotypes as behaviours that are morphologically identical, repeated regularly and have no 'obvious function'. The main problem of this definition is that we do not know from how many seconds of repetition we can consider a behaviour as stereotyped? Most of authors tend to choose the duration arbitrarily. For example, Clark (1997) defined his stereotyped behaviours as followed: * stereotypic pacing = when a dog repeats immediately a path just taken and continues in the repetition for more than 1 sec * persistent grooming = when a dog grooms the same body site for more than 10 sec * continually moving = when a dog moves continually and apparently chases its tail for more than 1 sec Hubrecht (1993) considered all behaviours as circling, tail chasing, pacing, jumping, wall bouncing and flank sucking as stereotyped behaviours from the first second of appearance. Does somebody know a more validated & scientific way to choose the duration, or do you suggest me to determine, just like the other authors, this duration arbitrarily? Thanks a lot for your help & advice, Anouck Haverbeke From: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE" 5-JUL-2005 07:41:39.65 To: IN%"ceann-icrc@lycos.com" "ceann lambert", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) Ah. Piloerection. A very interesting and important point. Back when I = wrote that paper nearly 20 years ago, it hadn't occurred to me to = include it.=20 (As an aside, once again, we humans know what that signal means. How = often have we heard one person say to another, "Don't get your hackles = up." We can add that observation of canine behavior to two others we = related to humans and use familiarly: "Top dog" and "Under dog." Anyhow, just by including only two positions (up and down) for that = signal without considering any gradations, that would compound the = number of "sentences" tremendously. (Anyone care to do the math using = the numbers I have provided?) Steve STEPHEN RAFE ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ceann lambert=20 To: STEPHEN RAFE ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca=20 Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) I notice you didn't list piloerection of the fur along the back. = (hackles) H1, H12, H123, H1234 CeAnn ----- Original Message ----- From: "STEPHEN RAFE" To: "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc." , = Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:57:43 -0400 >=20 > Interesting. My work has been observational since I lack university=20 > funding. However, over two decades ago, I began studying dogs'=20 > non-verbal communication on my own. Then, in 1989, I wrote the=20 > below paper. >=20 > Steve > Stephen C. Rafe > B.S., M.S., Doctorate in progress > (Helping dogs and their owners and trainers use positive,=20 > behavior-based methods for over 20 years.) > STARFIRE > P.O. Box 8241 > Reston, VA 20195 > Email: rapport@comcast.net > Website: http://www.starfire-rapport.com >=20 > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- >=20 > WHAT IS YOUR DOG'S BODY TELLING YOU? >=20 > By: Stephen C. Rafe > Copyright 1989, Stephen C. Rafe. All Rights Reserved. >=20 > Some years ago, when an experienced dog person told me that a dog=20 > is capable of transmitting some 200 non-verbal signals per minute,=20 > and that other dogs could "read" them just as rapidly. When I first=20 > heard this, I wondered just where all these signals were supposed=20 > to come from, and how there could be so many. Of course, I knew=20 > that dogs had to depend more heavily upon their body language than=20 > people do since they have so few vocalizations (whines, barks,=20 > growls, etc.) I also knew their messages had to be understood=20 > clearly, the first time, since they were incapable of falling back=20 > on humans' old standby, "You know what I mean." >=20 > But 200 signals a minute? How could that be, when the dog is=20 > generally said to exhibit only eight to ten tail postures, and ten=20 > to twelve facial postures? But, then what about shoulder, back, and=20 > leg postures? And what about separating mouth positions from ear=20 > positions? >=20 > Let's say that we can agree that the dog can display only two=20 > distinctly different shoulder postures (slumped and broadened),=20 > three back postures (arched, "normal" and sagging) and three to=20 > five leg positions (ranging from raised paw to bent legs, to stiff=20 > legs). Even so, it is still hard to figure how he can transmit even=20 > dozens of signals per minute. >=20 > That is, until we realize that the dog has at least the theoretical=20 > ability to use each one of these in combination with each of the=20 > other positions each other body part is capable of displaying. Tail=20 > position #1, for instance, might be used with at least ten=20 > different ear positions, ten different mouth positions, two=20 > shoulder positions, three back positions, and at least three leg=20 > positions. >=20 > To get an idea of the magnitude, we need to look at the first group: > Item Body Part > A Tail (10) > B Legs (3) > C Back (3) > D Shoulders (2) > E Head (2) > F Ears (10) > G Eyes w/Brow (2) > H Mouth (10) >=20 > Put each body part into one of these positions and you come up with=20 > only one total non-verbal signal, you say? And that, therefore, the=20 > dog has only a total of nine -- items A through H? Or perhaps you=20 > might agree that there could be as many different non-verbal=20 > messages as there are tail positions? Or mouth positions? Or eye=20 > positions? Or ear positions? >=20 > That would seem logical, at least until you realize that Item A's=20 > first position could be used with each of Item B's three positions,=20 > without changing anything in Items C, D, E, F, G, and H. Then, the=20 > same thing can be done with Item A's second position, third=20 > position, fourth position, and so on right through the tenth=20 > position. >=20 > Now, lest that also seem too easy, consider this: You have to do=20 > the same with all of B's positions juxtaposed against each of the=20 > others. And on it goes. Here's only a partial illustration of how=20 > to begin to examine the problem, using the least number of=20 > positions possible for each body part: >=20 > A1 B2 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 > A1 B3 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C2 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C3 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D2 E1 F1 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E2 F1 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F2 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F3 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F4 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F5 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F6 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F7 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F8 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F9 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F10 G1 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G2 H1 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H2 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H3 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H4 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H5 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H6 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H7 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H8 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H9 > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H10 >=20 > That's twenty-five combinations, or separate and distinct messages,=20 > so far. And we have yet to move from Position A1 through each of=20 > the other combinations with A2 through A10.At first glance, logic=20 > would tell us that there have to be about 200 combinations=20 > available with A, alone, before we even begin to move through the=20 > B's. Again, logic would tell us we have at least another 200 more=20 > here, as well. Then what about all the C's? The D's, the E's, F's,=20 > G's, and H's? We're certainly well over a thousand possible=20 > combinations -- and we're just talking about nine parts of the=20 > body: Tail, Legs, Back, Shoulders, Head, Ears, Eyes, and Mouth. >=20 > But does that exhaust the possibilities? For certain, you say? Not=20 > from the dog's viewpoint, and certainly not from the=20 > mathematician's who devotes a career to figuring out things like=20 > this. I'm told that according to the rules of mathematics, you have=20 > to factor in each part times the number of signals it can transmit,=20 > times the total number of available parts, times the number of=20 > signals they can transmit. This would mean: >=20 > Ten A's times Three B's, times Three C's, times Two D's, times Two=20 > E's, times 10 F's, times Two G's, times Ten H's. Or: 10 x 3 =3D 30 x = > 3 =3D 90 x 2 =3D 180 x 2 =3D 360 x 10 =3D 3,600 x 2 =3D 7,200 x 10 = =3D 72,000. >=20 > At this point, let's say we have completely identified all the=20 > various positions the dog can assume for the body parts noted --=20 > although we certainly may have missed some. Now we are faced with=20 > the possibility that a dog is capable of more than seventy thousand=20 > separate and distinct non-verbal messages that can be transmitted,=20 > received, understood, and acted upon with rarely a=20 > mis-interpretation. All this from those "lowly" animals we call=20 > dogs. >=20 > -- xxx -- >=20 >=20 > FOOTNOTE TO NON-VERBALS IN DOGS > Writing about communications signals in animals, researcher 1Tim=20 > Halliday says:" Another important issue is the extent to which=20 > aggressive signals are stereotyped, whether, by being variable in=20 > form, they can convey information about an animal's level of=20 > aggressive motiva=ADtion. There are major limitations in our ability = > as human observers to detect small variations in the performance of=20 > animal signals. A signal that appears to our senses to be very=20 > stereotyped may, when analyzed in detail by means of cine film or=20 > sound spectrograph, prove to be highly variable." >=20 > If we doubt a dog's ability to transmit this vast array of=20 > messages, we need only refer to Halliday once more: "Jensen (1977)=20 > has analyzed the threat signals of anoline lizards and has shown=20 > that they consist of a basic display that is performed in=20 > conjunction with one or more 'modifiers'." For example, in Anolis=20 > opalinus, Jensen (1979) has described seven static and six dynamic=20 > modifiers that may be performed in association with a basic head-=20 > bobbing threat display. "The static modi=ADfiers consist of body=20 > postures. Dynamic modifiers are movements, including rearing up,=20 > pulsed inflation of the dewlap and rolling the head." >=20 > Says Halliday, "Jensen (1977) concludes from his studies of anoline=20 > lizards that (the) display modifiers may convey more information=20 > than the basic displays with which they are associated. While the=20 > basic display indicates aggressive motivation, the modifiers signal=20 > the level of that motivation." >=20 > "These examples emphasize the point that what at first may seem to=20 > be very stereotyped displays prove on close analysis to be very=20 > variable and to be capable of conveying quite complex=20 > inform=ADa=ADtion. Lizards are able to convey subtle 'shades of=20 > meaning' when behaving aggressively to one another," he concludes. >=20 > 1 "Information and Communication" by Tim Halliday, writing in=20 > Animal Behaviour - 2, Communication" (A series edited by T.=20 > Halliday and P. J. B. Slater -- W. H. Freeman and Company=20 > Publishers, New York/San Francisco, 1983) >=20 > ----- > But Marc Bekoff, an ethologist at the University of Colorado,=20 > always suspected there was something more going on. True, the=20 > posture happens most often at the beginning of a bout of canine=20 > play. But it also happens in the middle, and not randomly. And the=20 > more closely Bekoff observed dog behavior, the more he began to=20 > recognize other ritualized motions and postures--some of them so=20 > fleeting that he couldn't really keep track. So he began making=20 > videotapes, then playing them back one frame at a time. "The more=20 > details I saw, the more interesting it got," he recalls. "It wasn't=20 > just dogs playing; it was also dogs exchanging an incredible amount=20 > of information as they played." > In short, Bekoff was able to show--after at least a decade of=20 > painstaking observation and analysis--that canine play is actually=20 > a complex social interaction in which the participants constantly=20 > signal their intentions and check to make sure their behavior is=20 > correctly interpreted. Dogs that cheat--promising a playful bite=20 > but delivering a harsh one, for example--tend to be ostracized. > That understanding is nothing short of revolutionary. CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org From: IN%"ceann-icrc@lycos.com" "ceann lambert" 5-JUL-2005 08:49:54.95 To: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) There are gradations. Usually the further down the back the hackles are up= , the higher degree of aggressive arousal. (scruff/withers, back, rump, and= tail(1,2,3 and four.) I have a coyote who only weighs about fifteen pound= s, but when she is at H1234, she is very impressive and looks at least 10 l= bs. heavier. CeAnn ----- Original Message ----- From: "STEPHEN RAFE" To: "ceann lambert" , applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:40:40 -0400 >=20 > Ah. Piloerection. A very interesting and important point. Back when=20 > I wrote that paper nearly 20 years ago, it hadn't occurred to me to=20 > include it. >=20 > (As an aside, once again, we humans know what that signal means.=20 > How often have we heard one person say to another, "Don't get your=20 > hackles up." We can add that observation of canine behavior to two=20 > others we related to humans and use familiarly: "Top dog" and=20 > "Under dog." >=20 > Anyhow, just by including only two positions (up and down) for that=20 > signal without considering any gradations, that would compound the=20 > number of "sentences" tremendously. (Anyone care to do the math=20 > using the numbers I have provided?) >=20 > Steve > STEPHEN RAFE > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ceann lambert > To: STEPHEN RAFE ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 10:07 PM > Subject: Re: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) >=20 >=20 > I notice you didn't list piloerection of the fur along the back. (hack= les) > H1, H12, H123, H1234 > CeAnn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "STEPHEN RAFE" > To: "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc." ,=20 > Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) > Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:57:43 -0400 >=20 > > > > Interesting. My work has been observational since I lack university > > funding. However, over two decades ago, I began studying dogs' > > non-verbal communication on my own. Then, in 1989, I wrote the > > below paper. > > > > Steve > > Stephen C. Rafe > > B.S., M.S., Doctorate in progress > > (Helping dogs and their owners and trainers use positive, > > behavior-based methods for over 20 years.) > > STARFIRE > > P.O. Box 8241 > > Reston, VA 20195 > > Email: rapport@comcast.net > > Website: http://www.starfire-rapport.com > > > >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > > > > WHAT IS YOUR DOG'S BODY TELLING YOU? > > > > By: Stephen C. Rafe > > Copyright 1989, Stephen C. Rafe. All Rights Reserved. > > > > Some years ago, when an experienced dog person told me that a dog > > is capable of transmitting some 200 non-verbal signals per minute, > > and that other dogs could "read" them just as rapidly. When I first > > heard this, I wondered just where all these signals were supposed > > to come from, and how there could be so many. Of course, I knew > > that dogs had to depend more heavily upon their body language than > > people do since they have so few vocalizations (whines, barks, > > growls, etc.) I also knew their messages had to be understood > > clearly, the first time, since they were incapable of falling back > > on humans' old standby, "You know what I mean." > > > > But 200 signals a minute? How could that be, when the dog is > > generally said to exhibit only eight to ten tail postures, and ten > > to twelve facial postures? But, then what about shoulder, back, and > > leg postures? And what about separating mouth positions from ear > > positions? > > > > Let's say that we can agree that the dog can display only two > > distinctly different shoulder postures (slumped and broadened), > > three back postures (arched, "normal" and sagging) and three to > > five leg positions (ranging from raised paw to bent legs, to stiff > > legs). Even so, it is still hard to figure how he can transmit even > > dozens of signals per minute. > > > > That is, until we realize that the dog has at least the theoretical > > ability to use each one of these in combination with each of the > > other positions each other body part is capable of displaying. Tail > > position #1, for instance, might be used with at least ten > > different ear positions, ten different mouth positions, two > > shoulder positions, three back positions, and at least three leg > > positions. > > > > To get an idea of the magnitude, we need to look at the first group: > > Item Body Part > > A Tail (10) > > B Legs (3) > > C Back (3) > > D Shoulders (2) > > E Head (2) > > F Ears (10) > > G Eyes w/Brow (2) > > H Mouth (10) > > > > Put each body part into one of these positions and you come up with > > only one total non-verbal signal, you say? And that, therefore, the > > dog has only a total of nine -- items A through H? Or perhaps you > > might agree that there could be as many different non-verbal > > messages as there are tail positions? Or mouth positions? Or eye > > positions? Or ear positions? > > > > That would seem logical, at least until you realize that Item A's > > first position could be used with each of Item B's three positions, > > without changing anything in Items C, D, E, F, G, and H. Then, the > > same thing can be done with Item A's second position, third > > position, fourth position, and so on right through the tenth > > position. > > > > Now, lest that also seem too easy, consider this: You have to do > > the same with all of B's positions juxtaposed against each of the > > others. And on it goes. Here's only a partial illustration of how > > to begin to examine the problem, using the least number of > > positions possible for each body part: > > > > A1 B2 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 > > A1 B3 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C2 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C3 D1 E1 F1 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C1 D2 E1 F1 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E2 F1 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F2 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F3 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F4 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F5 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F6 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F7 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F8 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F9 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F10 G1 H1 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G2 H1 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H2 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H3 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H4 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H5 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H6 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H7 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H8 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H9 > > A1 B1 C1 D1 E1 F1 G1 H10 > > > > That's twenty-five combinations, or separate and distinct messages, > > so far. And we have yet to move from Position A1 through each of > > the other combinations with A2 through A10.At first glance, logic > > would tell us that there have to be about 200 combinations > > available with A, alone, before we even begin to move through the > > B's. Again, logic would tell us we have at least another 200 more > > here, as well. Then what about all the C's? The D's, the E's, F's, > > G's, and H's? We're certainly well over a thousand possible > > combinations -- and we're just talking about nine parts of the > > body: Tail, Legs, Back, Shoulders, Head, Ears, Eyes, and Mouth. > > > > But does that exhaust the possibilities? For certain, you say? Not > > from the dog's viewpoint, and certainly not from the > > mathematician's who devotes a career to figuring out things like > > this. I'm told that according to the rules of mathematics, you have > > to factor in each part times the number of signals it can transmit, > > times the total number of available parts, times the number of > > signals they can transmit. This would mean: > > > > Ten A's times Three B's, times Three C's, times Two D's, times Two > > E's, times 10 F's, times Two G's, times Ten H's. Or: 10 x 3 =3D 30 x > > 3 =3D 90 x 2 =3D 180 x 2 =3D 360 x 10 =3D 3,600 x 2 =3D 7,200 x 10 = =3D 72,000. > > > > At this point, let's say we have completely identified all the > > various positions the dog can assume for the body parts noted -- > > although we certainly may have missed some. Now we are faced with > > the possibility that a dog is capable of more than seventy thousand > > separate and distinct non-verbal messages that can be transmitted, > > received, understood, and acted upon with rarely a > > mis-interpretation. All this from those "lowly" animals we call > > dogs. > > > > -- xxx -- > > > > > > FOOTNOTE TO NON-VERBALS IN DOGS > > Writing about communications signals in animals, researcher 1Tim > > Halliday says:" Another important issue is the extent to which > > aggressive signals are stereotyped, whether, by being variable in > > form, they can convey information about an animal's level of > > aggressive motiva=ADtion. There are major limitations in our ability > > as human observers to detect small variations in the performance of > > animal signals. A signal that appears to our senses to be very > > stereotyped may, when analyzed in detail by means of cine film or > > sound spectrograph, prove to be highly variable." > > > > If we doubt a dog's ability to transmit this vast array of > > messages, we need only refer to Halliday once more: "Jensen (1977) > > has analyzed the threat signals of anoline lizards and has shown > > that they consist of a basic display that is performed in > > conjunction with one or more 'modifiers'." For example, in Anolis > > opalinus, Jensen (1979) has described seven static and six dynamic > > modifiers that may be performed in association with a basic head- > > bobbing threat display. "The static modi=ADfiers consist of body > > postures. Dynamic modifiers are movements, including rearing up, > > pulsed inflation of the dewlap and rolling the head." > > > > Says Halliday, "Jensen (1977) concludes from his studies of anoline > > lizards that (the) display modifiers may convey more information > > than the basic displays with which they are associated. While the > > basic display indicates aggressive motivation, the modifiers signal > > the level of that motivation." > > > > "These examples emphasize the point that what at first may seem to > > be very stereotyped displays prove on close analysis to be very > > variable and to be capable of conveying quite complex > > inform=ADa=ADtion. Lizards are able to convey subtle 'shades of > > meaning' when behaving aggressively to one another," he concludes. > > > > 1 "Information and Communication" by Tim Halliday, writing in > > Animal Behaviour - 2, Communication" (A series edited by T. > > Halliday and P. J. B. Slater -- W. H. Freeman and Company > > Publishers, New York/San Francisco, 1983) > > > > ----- > > But Marc Bekoff, an ethologist at the University of Colorado, > > always suspected there was something more going on. True, the > > posture happens most often at the beginning of a bout of canine > > play. But it also happens in the middle, and not randomly. And the > > more closely Bekoff observed dog behavior, the more he began to > > recognize other ritualized motions and postures--some of them so > > fleeting that he couldn't really keep track. So he began making > > videotapes, then playing them back one frame at a time. "The more > > details I saw, the more interesting it got," he recalls. "It wasn't > > just dogs playing; it was also dogs exchanging an incredible amount > > of information as they played." > > In short, Bekoff was able to show--after at least a decade of > > painstaking observation and analysis--that canine play is actually > > a complex social interaction in which the participants constantly > > signal their intentions and check to make sure their behavior is > > correctly interpreted. Dogs that cheat--promising a playful bite > > but delivering a harsh one, for example--tend to be ostracized. > > That understanding is nothing short of revolutionary. >=20 >=20 >=20 > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.coyoterescue.org CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org From: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE" 5-JUL-2005 09:02:36.20 To: IN%"ceann-icrc@lycos.com" "ceann lambert", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) Can we observe and chart the gradations? I would want this to be replicable, just as I have tried to do by using the widely accepted positions of the other signaling body parts. Steve STEPHEN ----- Original Message ----- From: ceann lambert To: STEPHEN RAFE ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:49 AM Subject: Re: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) There are gradations. Usually the further down the back the hackles are up, the higher degree of aggressive arousal. (scruff/withers, back, rump, and tail(1,2,3 and four.) I have a coyote who only weighs about fifteen pounds, but when she is at H1234, she is very impressive and looks at least 10 lbs. heavier. CeAnn ----- > Ah. Piloerection. A very interesting and important point. Back when > I wrote that paper nearly 20 years ago, it hadn't occurred to me to > include it. > Anyhow, just by including only two positions (up and down) for that > signal without considering any gradations, that would compound the > number of "sentences" tremendously. (Anyone care to do the math > using the numbers I have provided?) > > Steve From: IN%"ceann-icrc@lycos.com" "ceann lambert" 5-JUL-2005 10:18:14.77 To: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) You could observe and chart this by observing the wolves at Wolf Park. Get in touch with Pat Goodman or Gale Motter. 1-765-567-2265 You could probably do it here with coyotes, but it may be easier in a pack situation. CeAnn ----- Original Message ----- From: "STEPHEN RAFE" To: "ceann lambert" , Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:02:23 -0400 > > Can we observe and chart the gradations? I would want this to be > replicable, just as I have tried to do by using the widely accepted > positions of the other signaling body parts. > > Steve > STEPHEN > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ceann lambert > To: STEPHEN RAFE ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:49 AM > Subject: Re: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) > > > There are gradations. Usually the further down the back the > hackles are up, the higher degree of aggressive arousal. > (scruff/withers, back, rump, and tail(1,2,3 and four.) I have a > coyote who only weighs about fifteen pounds, but when she is at > H1234, she is very impressive and looks at least 10 lbs. heavier. > CeAnn > ----- > > Ah. Piloerection. A very interesting and important point. Back when > > I wrote that paper nearly 20 years ago, it hadn't occurred to me to > > include it. > > Anyhow, just by including only two positions (up and down) for that > > signal without considering any gradations, that would compound the > > number of "sentences" tremendously. (Anyone care to do the math > > using the numbers I have provided?) > > > > Steve CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org From: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE" 5-JUL-2005 10:23:24.37 To: IN%"ceann-icrc@lycos.com" "ceann lambert", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) Thanks, so much Ceann. I'd have to do it via videotapes since I don't even have a budget for travel. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: ceann lambert To: STEPHEN RAFE ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) You could observe and chart this by observing the wolves at Wolf Park. Get in touch with Pat Goodman or Gale Motter. 1-765-567-2265 You could probably do it here with coyotes, but it may be easier in a pack situation. CeAnn ----- Original Message ----- From: "STEPHEN RAFE" To: "ceann lambert" , Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:02:23 -0400 > > Can we observe and chart the gradations? I would want this to be > replicable, just as I have tried to do by using the widely accepted > positions of the other signaling body parts. > > Steve > STEPHEN > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ceann lambert > To: STEPHEN RAFE ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:49 AM > Subject: Re: Honor Among Beasts (Time Magazine) > > > There are gradations. Usually the further down the back the > hackles are up, the higher degree of aggressive arousal. > (scruff/withers, back, rump, and tail(1,2,3 and four.) I have a > coyote who only weighs about fifteen pounds, but when she is at > H1234, she is very impressive and looks at least 10 lbs. heavier. > CeAnn > ----- > > Ah. Piloerection. A very interesting and important point. Back when > > I wrote that paper nearly 20 years ago, it hadn't occurred to me to > > include it. > > Anyhow, just by including only two positions (up and down) for that > > signal without considering any gradations, that would compound the > > number of "sentences" tremendously. (Anyone care to do the math > > using the numbers I have provided?) > > > > Steve CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org From: IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" "Donald Broom" 5-JUL-2005 10:38:12.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"Anouck.haverbeke@fundp.ac.be" Subj: stereotypies Dear Claire and Anouck The issues which you raise are discussed by: Broom, D.M. and Johnson, K.G. 1993. Stress and Animal Welfare (pp. 211). Dordrecht: Kluwer/Springer. on pages 139 - 141 and also by Georgia Mason and others in Lawrence,A.B. and Rushen J. 1993 Stereotypic Animal Behaviour. Wallingford:CABI. Best wishes Don -- Professor Donald M. Broom Colleen Macleod Professor of Animal Welfare Animal Welfare and Human-Animal Interactions Group Department of Veterinary Medicine University of Cambridge Madingley Road CAMBRIDGE CB3 0ES U.K. Telephone 0044 (0)1223 337697 Fax 0044 (0)1223 337610 and St Catharine's College Cambridge CB2 1RL U.K. 0044 (0)1223 338344 e-mail dmb16@cam.ac.uk From: IN%"hilit@teldan.com" "Hilit Finkler" 6-JUL-2005 02:18:22.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hello Hi everyone, My name is Hilit and i'm starting my Ph.D these days in Zoology. One of the subjects i would like to explore is cat welfare. My problem is that the literature only has references to shelter cat welfare, and behaviooural problems of house cats. Does anyone has any idea according to what welfare parameters i could evaluate feral cat welfare? house cat welfare? I am refering to behavioural parameters. Physiological ones are easier to determine and with these i have less of a problem. I would appreciate your responses, Hilit Tel Aviv University Israel From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 7-JUL-2005 10:35:17.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: heritability of behaviour Dear all, I'm interested in the heritability of behaviour, as I'm addressing the possibilities to select for desired behavioural traits in an ethics report. More in particular, I would like to know whether it is correct to say that at the present state-of-the-arts, the heritability for complex behaviour patterns (such as parental behaviour) is low? Or moderate? And do we know to what extent the heritability is limited due to a strong environmental influence on such traits, and to what extent it is limited due to difficulty in measuring the traits? Regards, Anna Olsson Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Greg & Jackie" 8-JUL-2005 02:57:19.80 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: good news Hi everyone, I have been admitted into the Australian College of Veterinary Scientists as a member in the Animal Behaviour chapter. Best regards, Jackie Perkins BVScHons MACVSc BA Ps see you at the ISAE conference in Japan in August From: IN%"Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk" "Moira Harris" 9-JUL-2005 10:06:57.79 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Greg & Jackie", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: good news Dear Jackie, This is very good news for you. Why did you feel the need to share it with the Applied Ethology group? Best wishes, - Moira --On 08 July 2005 18:57 +1000 Greg & Jackie wrote: > > Hi everyone, > I have been admitted into the Australian College of Veterinary Scientists > as a member in the Animal Behaviour chapter. > Best regards, > Jackie Perkins > BVScHons MACVSc BA > Ps see you at the ISAE conference in Japan in August > > ------------------------------------- Dr. Moira Harris Dept. Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol moira.harris@bristol.ac.uk 0117 928 9404 From: IN%"LyndhurstPark@aol.com" 10-JUL-2005 07:04:23.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Enquiry I am a mature student in the UK studying Canine Ethology. My research thesis is on the relationship between handler and dog in specialist fields i.e. SAR, Police & Armed Forces. Can anyone direct me towards research done on - the transferring of emotional states from handler to dog (yes I know, its highly controversial). Gordon Butcher From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 10-JUL-2005 10:46:22.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine epilepsy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aoife Ortega O'Sullivan" Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 7:33 PM > We searching for new treatments and we found one phenobarbital and > potassium bromide, I would like to have your opinions please!! or any other > advice that could help us treating our new patient!! > thanks for your time!! > sincerely margory cohen: Not a vet. Friends who have had dogs who have seisures, in one case epilepsy; in another case, the result of a virus I believe was the diagnosis, both of these dogs were treated with pheonobarb and potassium bromide. I don't know the combinations nor the amounts and suspect each depends on dog weight and severity of seizure. Mind you, the seisures didn't stop but more time between I believe for a time was had. I understand there is a lay chat forum on-line dedicated to this and I would suspect even more science at University of Pennsylvania and Colorado State or Cornell or Michigan State, any of the major vet schools with deep research in their budgets. I didn't see a reply to yours and knowing the dogs I do who have lived good quality lives, medicated they be, I didn't want yours to be unnoted. Good luck. -margory cohen San Francisco, CA From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 10-JUL-2005 11:36:47.88 To: IN%"margory@rcn.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine epilepsy In a message dated 7/10/2005 9:48:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, margory@rcn.com writes: > We searching for new treatments and we found one phenobarbital and > potassium bromide, I would like to have your opinions please!! or any other > advice that could help us treating our new patient!! > thanks for your time!! > sincerely margory cohen: Not a vet. I am not a vet or MD but I am a neuroscientists and I can suggest a couple of benign or helpful augmentations that you are not likely to have heard of. Piracetam is a drug used to treat cognitive dysfunction, among its many salutary properties is that it seems to increase the effectiveness of many antiseizure medications including phenobarbital while ameliorating the sedative side effects. The levo isomer of piracetam levetiracetam is an effective antiepileptic drug by itself that has a relatively benign side-effect profile. In general, epileptic seizures are caused by hyperactive neuron clusters that involve a wide variety of neurotransmitters and brain locations. Certain individuals that do not respond well to the more common antiseizure drugs will response unusually well to other psychotropic medications that are not usually thought of as antiepileptics. These include, antipsychotics, antidepressants and even antihistamines. I am not an expert on figuring out what is appropriate. It is partly a matter of trial and error but clues can be gotten from secondary symptoms associated with the seizure and prodromal period. The rule of thumb is that if you also see symptoms, such as aggression or anxiety, associated with the seizure augmenting with drugs that attack these symptoms will often make the seizures themselves better. From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 10-JUL-2005 17:35:10.15 To: IN%"rudydemeester@pandora.be", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine epilepsy In a message dated 7/10/2005 12:27:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, rudydemeester@pandora.be writes: As a vet I think I have to warn for the epileptogenic effect of some antidepressants as SSRI and Tricyclic antidepressants. Rudy De Meester Yes, I am sorry I didn't mention that. There is a lot of individual variability but it is my understanding that it is not the SSRI's so much as the dopaminergics like Wellbutrin and some of the TCA's. None of my advice should be taken to supplant a veterinarians advice, but as a topic to bring up with him/her. Here is a list of seizure incidence that I got from a webpage below. _http://professionals.epilepsy.com/page/table_thera_antidepress.html_ (http://professionals.epilepsy.com/page/table_thera_antidepress.html) Antidepressants Seizure Incidence (%) TCAs and tetracyclic antidepressants Amitriptyline <0.1-0.3 Amoxapine 24.5-36.4 Clomipramine 0.7-3.0 Desipramine <0.1 Doxepin <0.1 Imipramine <0.1-0.9 Maprotiline 0.4-15.6 Nortriptyline <0.1 Protriptyline <0.1 SSRI and SNRI Citalopram <0.1 Fluoxetine <0.1-0.2 Fluvoxamine <0.2 Paroxetine <0.1 Sertraline <0.1 Venlafaxine <0.26 Other antidepressants Bupropion 0.6-1.0 >450 mg/day 0.6-2.19 SR 400 mg/day 0.4 SR 300 mg/day 0.1 Mirtazapine <0.1 Nefazodone NA Trazodone <0.1 From: IN%"shelley_leah@yahoo.com" "shelley lower" 11-JUL-2005 06:46:01.16 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Behavioral Taxonomy Hello all, Can anyone help me find behavioral taxonomy for Rhesus Monkeys and/or Chimpanzees? -Shelley ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE" 11-JUL-2005 07:13:55.83 To: IN%"shelley_leah@yahoo.com" "shelley lower", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Behavioral Taxonomy a.. Rhesus Macaque: General Information ... Click the roman numerals to navigate the page I. = Taxonomy ______ Rhesus macaques are of the family Cercopithecidae, or = old world monkeys, which includes baboons, langurs, mangabeys, mandrils = ...=20 a.. = www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/Behavior/Spring2005/Winter/GeneralInfo= .htm=20 b.. Cached page=20 b.. Conference Schedule ... ADRENAL REGULATION IN 3-4 MONTH-OLD RHESUS MONKEYS J. Capitanio, = S. Mendoza [ 7 ] 11:00 AM INDIVIDUAL ... 44 ] AN ECOLOGICAL VIEW OF = BABOON ( PAPIO ) TAXONOMY WITH INSIGHTS FROM FOREST GUENONS ( = CERCOPITHECUS ...=20 a.. www.asp.org/asp2004/ConferenceSchedule.html=20 b.. Cached page=20 c.. Conference Schedule ... 04:00 PM LEARNING SET PERFORMANCE OF INFANT RHESUS MONKEYS ( M. = MULATTA ) PRODUCED BY ASSISTED ... 09:00 AM KARYOLOGICAL GUIDELINES FOR = AOTUS TAXONOMY T. R. Defler, M. L. Bueno [ 191 ] 09:15 ...=20 a.. www.asp.org/asp2003/ConferenceSchedule.html=20 b.. Cached page=20 c.. Show more results from "www.asp.org". d.. Mammals =BB Primates =BB Macaque - Rhesus Main Page ... Scientific Name: Macaca mulatta (Full Taxonomy) Group: Old = World Monkey Origin or Range ... to what types of food are good to eat. = If Rhesus Monkeys are not reared in a group, they have no ...=20 a.. www.centralpets.com/animals/mammals/primates/pri4683.html=20 b.. Cached page=20 e.. Primate Factsheets: Rhesus macaque (Macaca mulatta) ... notable early field researchers of rhesus monkeys is Charles = Southwick, who began ... 2005 June 28. Primate Factsheets: Rhesus = macaque (Macaca mulatta) Taxonomy, Morphology, & Ecology. Leda > Three Things Marijuana Doesn't Do=20 ... Disclaimer Leda About Leda Chemicals Taxonomy Preparations = Categories Links Lycaeum Homepage Forums Chat ... Research in Arkansas = examined some 64 rhesus monkeys, half of which were exposed to daily or = ...=20 a.. leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=3D12446=20 b.. Cached page=20 c.. 7/9/2005=20 j.. http://netvet.wustl.edu/species/PRIMATES/PRIMATE1.TXT ... 1975. Recovery of Herpesvirus simiae (B virus) from both primary = and latent infections in rhesus monkeys. Brit J Exp Pathol 56:485-488. = Zwartouw HT et al. 1984. Transmission of B virus infection ...=20 a.. netvet.wustl.edu/species/PRIMATES/PRIMATE1.TXT=20 b.. Cached page=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: shelley lower=20 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca=20 Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 8:45 AM Subject: Behavioral Taxonomy Hello all,=20 Can anyone help me find behavioral taxonomy for Rhesus Monkeys and/or Chimpanzees? -Shelley ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - no fees. Bid on great items. =20 http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"dmills@lincoln.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" 11-JUL-2005 07:46:15.25 To: IN%"LyndhurstPark@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Enquiry A couple of studies of tangential interest, might be : 1. Linda keeling's study which looked at the effect of telling horse-owners that they were going to open an umbrella near the horse on the riders and horse's reaction. This was presented as ISAZ last year. they didn't startle the horse but the horse's HR went up after the riders so they appeared to be influencing it 2. I am this week due to present a little study on the responsiveness of dogs to commands with different emotional content. in short, when the commands have negative affect the responses are less reliable. Hope this helps and please post your results if you find out more bets wishes Daniel S. Mills BVSc PhD ILTM CBiol MIBiol MRCVS Professor & RCVS Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Behavioural Medicine Animal Behaviour, Cognition & Welfare Group University of Lincoln, Dept of Biological Sciences, Riseholme Park, Lincoln, U.K. LN2 2LG tel 44 (0)1522 895356 email dmills@lincoln.ac.uk web page: http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/dbs/staff/479.asp ________________________________ From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com [mailto:LyndhurstPark@aol.com] Sent: 10 July 2005 14:04 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Enquiry I am a mature student in the UK studying Canine Ethology. My research thesis is on the relationship between handler and dog in specialist fields i.e. SAR, Police & Armed Forces. Can anyone direct me towards research done on - the transferring of emotional states from handler to dog (yes I know, its highly controversial). Gordon Butcher From: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE" 11-JUL-2005 08:00:42.54 To: IN%"dmills@lincoln.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills", IN%"LyndhurstPark@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Enquiry I would love to see the paper and all other studies on this topic. I use others' dogs and often shelter dogs when I demonstrate with dogs at seminars. My first step is to build a rapport with the dog. (See Starfire's Rapport Skills[tm] http://www.starfire-raport.com) That having been done. all my vocalizations are calming and assuring to the dog. I never raise my voice or speak in abrupt or harsh tones. Steve Stephen C. Rafe B.S., M.S., Doctorate in progress (Helping dogs and their owners and trainers use positive, behavior-based methods for over 20 years.) STARFIRE P.O. Box 8241 Reston, VA 20195 Email: rapport@comcast.net Website: http://www.starfire-rapport.com ----- 2. I am this week due to present a little study on the responsiveness of dogs to commands with different emotional content. in short, when the commands have negative affect the responses are less reliable. From: IN%"rabrooks@umd.edu" "Ray Brooks" 11-JUL-2005 08:27:53.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Movement tracking and analysis Hello all. I am currently working on a project to define and assess "freedom of movement" in a production. I have reached a major road-block in that this work requires real-time tracking of animal movements. Is anyone aware of an affordable alternative to the Noldus Ehovision software that will allow the tracking and analysis of multiple targets? Any leads would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Ray Brooks Ray Brooks Graduate Research Assistant University of Maryland 2105 Animal Sciences Center College Park, MD 20742 From: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE" 11-JUL-2005 08:49:47.01 To: IN%"rabrooks@umd.edu" "Ray Brooks", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Movement tracking and analysis Interesting that you should encounter "a major road-block" in your "freedom of movement" study. Stephen STEPHEN RAFE ----- Hello all. I am currently working on a project to define and assess "freedom of movement" in a production. I have reached a major road-block in that this work requires real-time tracking of animal movements. Is anyone aware of an affordable alternative to the Noldus Ehovision software that will allow the tracking and analysis of multiple targets? Any leads would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Ray Brooks From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 11-JUL-2005 09:40:55.90 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: welfare of organic animals Hello, all, There is a growing consumer movement to ban all use of antibiotics in farmed animals in the U.S. which is being given support by articles such as those two abstracted below. The position of my organization (Animal Welfare Institute) has always been that ill and injured animals that would benefit from antibiotic treatment should have it but that use of antibiotics to prevent illness or control its manifestations and promote growth should not be permitted. This is my question for the list: What are the welfare impacts of campylobacter and salmonella on chickens that are infected with them? I have visited organic pig farms where piglets were dripping yellow feces and limping and wasting from infected, injured limbs and feel these conditions demonstrate poor welfare for the pigs and the pigs would have benefited from antibiotic treatment. However, I have not similarly observed (or perhaps have not known what I was observing) broiler conditions. Are the bacteria simply being carried by the chickens with no ill effects or are there similar symptoms (to pigs) that would show up and indicate infection causing a welfare problem and would the chickens exhibiting these symptoms benefit from antibiotic treatment? Thank you. Marlene Halverson ----- Abstract: "Retail organic (n = 198) and conventional (n = 61) chickens were analyzed. Most organic (76%) and conventional (74%) chickens were contaminated with campylobacters. Salmonellae were recovered from 61% of organic and 44% of conventional chickens. All Salmonella enterica serovar Typhimurium isolates from conventional chickens were resistant to five or more antimicrobials, whereas most S. enterica serovar Typhimurium isolates (79%) from organic chickens were susceptible to 17 antimicrobials tested. " Prevalence and Antimicrobial Resistance of Campylobacter spp. and Salmonella Serovars in Organic Chickens from Maryland Retail Stores Shenghui Cui, Beilei Ge, Jie Zheng, and Jianghong Meng Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 2005; 71(7): p. 4108-4111 http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/7/4108?ct From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 11-JUL-2005 10:25:47.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: welfare of organic animals 2 Hello, again, Here is a similar article to the broiler antibiotic abstracts being circulated here as regards alternatives to antibiotics for piglets. And here is an additional question: what might be the health/other impacts of using spray-dried plasma in piglet diets? Marlene Halverson Animal Welfare Institute ---- http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2005/050708.htm Boosting Immunity in Young Pigs: Spray-dried plasma and fish oil help swine Illness during a piglet's first few weeks of life can affect its eventual size and market-readiness. But the common practice of early weaning increases piglets' risk of disease, because their immune and digestive systems are less developed. So farmers must find ways to keep their piglets free of diseases as they grow to market size. To help, Agricultural Research Service (ARS) animal physiologist Jeffery A. Carroll is collaborating with swine nutritionists at the University of Missouri (UM) in Columbia to look for ways to boost immunity in piglets. "Finding ways to build immunity in young pigs has become more and more important over the last two decades because weaning age has been dramatically reduced," Carroll says. Carroll started this collaborative research while at the Animal Physiology Research Unit in Columbia. Now at the Livestock Issues Research Unit in Lubbock, Texas, he continues to test spray-dried plasma, fish oil, and other nutritional supplements added to swine diets as a way of boosting immunity. Spray-dried plasma is a byproduct of the meatpacking industry and is often used in swine diets to boost growth and feed efficiency. After animals are inspected and approved for human consumption, the blood is collected at packinghouses and placed into containers treated with anticoagulant. The blood is then chilled and centrifuged to separate the plasma from the cell fraction. Individual fractions are then spray dried for use in food, feed, and industrial applications. "The plasma protein is incorporated into the regular feed given to piglets for the first few weeks after weaning," Carroll explains. The piglets start off with a ration consisting of 5 to 7 percent plasma. After a week or so, the level of plasma in their diet is reduced to 2.5 to 3.5 percent, and eventually the piglet receives no more of the immune-protecting ingredient. By that time, their immune systems should be fairly well developed. But producers are also exploring other uses for plasma proteins in immune system responses as the pig ages and new stresses occur. Other scientists observed that feeding piglets plasma helped to increase size and feed efficiency and speculated it helped with immunity. Carroll believes plasma provides immune protection in the pig's intestine by blocking pathogens from binding to the intestine. He has planned more tests to see why plasma boosts immunity. Carroll and his UM colleagues are also looking at improving swine immunity by including a 7-percent mixture of menhaden fish oil in the diet. Like tuna and salmon, menhaden contain high levels of omega-3 fatty acids. "Fish oil builds immunity at the cellular level. It's absorbed and incorporated into the immune cells of the pig," Carroll says. Plasma, fish oil, and other natural ingredients, Carroll says, may replace growth-promoting antibiotics that pigs have traditionally been given, especially since many countries are phasing out antibiotic use. -By David Elstein, formerly with ARS. This research is part of Animal Well-Being and Stress Control Systems, an ARS National Program (#105) described on the World Wide Web at www.nps.ars.usda.gov. Jeffery A. Carroll is in the USDA-ARS Livestock Issues Research Unit, Route 3, Box 215, Lubbock, TX 79403; phone (806) 746-5356, fax (806) 744-4402. "Boosting Immunity in Young Pigs: Spray-dried plasma and fish oil help swine" was published in the July 2005 issue of Agricultural Research magazine. From: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE" 11-JUL-2005 10:35:15.21 To: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: welfare of organic animals The core issue poses a different question: What should we be thinking about the animal-husbandry methods that lead to "campylobacter and salmonella on chickens that are infected with them," or "piglets were dripping yellow feces and limping and wasting from infected, injured limbs...." Stephen STEPHEN RAFE ----- This is my question for the list: What are the welfare impacts of campylobacter and salmonella on chickens that are infected with them? I have visited organic pig farms where piglets were dripping yellow feces and limping and wasting from infected, injured limbs and feel these conditions demonstrate poor welfare for the pigs and the pigs would have benefited from antibiotic treatment. However, I have not similarly observed (or perhaps have not known what I was observing) broiler conditions. Are the bacteria simply being carried by the chickens with no ill effects or are there similar symptoms (to pigs) that would show up and indicate infection causing a welfare problem and would the chickens exhibiting these symptoms benefit from antibiotic treatment? Thank you. Marlene Halverson ----- Abstract: "Retail organic (n = 198) and conventional (n = 61) chickens were analyzed. Most organic (76%) and conventional (74%) chickens were contaminated with campylobacters. Salmonellae were recovered from 61% of organic and 44% of conventional chickens. All Salmonella enterica serovar Typhimurium isolates from conventional chickens were resistant to five or more antimicrobials, whereas most S. enterica serovar Typhimurium isolates (79%) from organic chickens were susceptible to 17 antimicrobials tested. " Prevalence and Antimicrobial Resistance of Campylobacter spp. and Salmonella Serovars in Organic Chickens from Maryland Retail Stores Shenghui Cui, Beilei Ge, Jie Zheng, and Jianghong Meng Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 2005; 71(7): p. 4108-4111 http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/7/4108?ct From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 11-JUL-2005 11:30:20.21 To: IN%"rapport@comcast.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: welfare of organic animals Hello, Stephen, and list, Fair question. First, I didn't mean to single out organic farms necessarily and I haven't seen that many organic farms. But on some of these organic farms I have seen some problems. I've also seen a lot of conventional farms where there are similar problems and and others where pigs and poultry have a good appearance but are supported by routine, prophylactic use of antibiotics. So I think the system is important but will not take care of all problems, especially in areas where campylobacter and salmonella appear to be endemic in the environment, e.g., in areas of longstanding and concentrated animal production, and in the case of occasional accidental injuries that could occur anywhere. I think the first abstract notes that broiler infection with campylobacter was about the same for conventional and organic farms and that with respect to salmonella the study found more in organic farms. By this measure, both organic and conventional farm systems could be faulted. With respect to injuries, it is realistic to believe that no matter the system, there are going to be occasional injuries that could become infected and would benefit from being treated. Good husbandry and good environment should keep these to a minimum, but even on the best farm accidents can happen. Recognizing this, from a veterinary/medical standpoint should antibiotic treatment be withheld from infected animals, if it could help them? what are the welfare consequences of withholding them? and are there also human health consequences of withholding antibiotic treatment that could kill the infections in the animals? That is, the articles seem to indicate that bacterial infections in humans would be more easily treated if no antibiotics were used on animals. However, if, for example, campylobacter were actually killed by treating the animals (and not potentially made stronger by consistent low level doses as in conventional production's antibiotic feed additive use) would this be better or worse for human medicine than withholding antibiotic treatment? Hope this makes sense. Marlene Halverson ----- In a message dated 7/11/2005 11:35:08 AM Central Standard Time, rapport@comcast.net writes: The core issue poses a different question: What should we be thinking about the animal-husbandry methods that lead to "campylobacter and salmonella on chickens that are infected with them," or "piglets were dripping yellow feces and limping and wasting from infected, injured limbs...." Stephen STEPHEN RAFE ----- This is my question for the list: What are the welfare impacts of campylobacter and salmonella on chickens that are infected with them? I have visited organic pig farms where piglets were dripping yellow feces and limping and wasting from infected, injured limbs and feel these conditions demonstrate poor welfare for the pigs and the pigs would have benefited from antibiotic treatment. However, I have not similarly observed (or perhaps have not known what I was observing) broiler conditions. Are the bacteria simply being carried by the chickens with no ill effects or are there similar symptoms (to pigs) that would show up and indicate infection causing a welfare problem and would the chickens exhibiting these symptoms benefit from antibiotic treatment? Thank you. Marlene Halverson ----- Abstract: "Retail organic (n = 198) and conventional (n = 61) chickens were analyzed. Most organic (76%) and conventional (74%) chickens were contaminated with campylobacters. Salmonellae were recovered from 61% of organic and 44% of conventional chickens. All Salmonella enterica serovar Typhimurium isolates from conventional chickens were resistant to five or more antimicrobials, whereas most S. enterica serovar Typhimurium isolates (79%) from organic chickens were susceptible to 17 antimicrobials tested. " Prevalence and Antimicrobial Resistance of Campylobacter spp. and Salmonella Serovars in Organic Chickens from Maryland Retail Stores Shenghui Cui, Beilei Ge, Jie Zheng, and Jianghong Meng Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 2005; 71(7): p. 4108-4111 http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/7/4108?ct From: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" "E. Wayne Johnson" 11-JUL-2005 12:21:01.25 To: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: welfare of organic animals As recently as only fifty-five years ago it was demonstrated that the growth promotion produced by "sub-therapeutic" antimicrobial use is dependent upon presence of relative filth and relative poor husbandry conditions. It has been demonstrated again and again that where husbandry and sanitation are excellent, pigs may not show any response to subtherapeutic antimicrobials in the feed or water, even in the post-weaning period. The editorial boards of research journals generally prohibit the publication of such work, often under the pretext that such content is "not unique" and is "already known", so that one will seldom see in print the studies that show no result at all when antibiotics are fed. One pretty good one that did get into print is pasted below. I would definitely associate piglet diarrhea with suboptimal diets, poor sanitation, poor husbandry, and poor judgment rather than the absence of antibiotics. Limping and wasting from infected injured limbs would be 100% husbandry and sanitation related although it will certainly respond to strategic mass antibiotic administration, just as any fire might respond to treatment rather than prevention. While the animal industries are rightly criticized for their wide-spread injudicious use of antibiotics, a total ban on antibiotic use would not be good. What could be good for the pigs, the producers, and the consumers is a limitation on the use of antibiotics to emergency (occurrence of viral disease outbreak like PRRS with secondary bacterial disease as a sequel) or temporary stop-gap measures (it might take several months or up to one year or more to turn things around husbandry-wise to the point that the antibiotics could be discontinued). One should expect the industry to pitch a hysterical fit, and do and say all manner of absurd and perverse things in response to the threat of outside control. The feed and drug industry has a economic stake, and the farmers fear that they do. I am concerned that much of the veterinary and scientific community will get on the wrong side of this issue and fight controls on antibiotic use rather than promote reform of antibiotic use and promote improved animal husbandry. There is much made of the "science-based approach" these days. It is a somewhat attractive argument. Several years ago many of the Departments of Animal Husbandry around the country became Animal Science departments, seemingly because that sounds more urban(e) and sophisticated and not so hayseed/bucolic, even sexist, as 'husbandry' . I am far from convinced that when it comes to care-giving, science in its stupefying objective rigour will always provide the most satisfying benefits. * Am J Vet Res. 1999 May;60(5):603-8. Health and growth performance of barrows reared in all-in/all-out or continuous flow facilities with or without a chlortetracycline feed additive. Ice AD, Grant AL, Clark LK, Cline TR, Einstein ME, Martin TG, Diekman MA. Department of Animal Sciences, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907, USA. OBJECTIVE: To compare health and growth performance in barrows reared in all-in/all-out (AIAO) or continuous flow (CF) management systems. ANIMALS: 400 barrows. PROCEDURE: Barrows (approx 2 months old) were allotted to 4 replications (100 barrows each); barrows were housed in AIAO or CF rooms (10 pens/room), and 50 pigs/replicate received chlortetracycline (CTC, 110 mg/kg of feed). Barrows from each pen were slaughtered at 3, 4, 5, and 6 months old. RESULTS: Barrows in the AIAO room had greater total daily gain (TDG) and lean daily gain (LDG) than did barrows in the CF room. Addition of CTC did not improve TDG or LDG in either environment. Barrows in the AIAO room reached body weight of 104.5 kg in 169.7 days, compared with 177.3 days for barrows in the CF room. Feed-to-gain ratio was not affected by management or CTC. Lungs from barrows reared in AIAO facilities had a lower percentage of lesions than did lungs of barrows reared in CF facilities (1.74% vs 9.52%). Addition of CTC did not affect prevalence and extent of lung lesions. Extent of lung lesions was positively correlated with change in serum optical density (OD) to Mycoplasma hyopneumoniae (r = 0.35), but not with change in serum OD to Actinobacillus pleuropneumoniae. Lean growth and serum OD to M. hyopneumoniae and A. pleuropneumoniae were not correlated. CONCLUSIONS: Health and growth performance were better for barrows in an AIAO facility, compared with a CF facility, but addition of CTC to feed failed to enhance health or performance of barrows in either facility. E. Wayne Johnson DVM 302 Animal Sciences Laboratory 1207 West Gregory Drive Urbana, Illinois 61801 217 778 9961 mobile 217 367 8252 home 217 333 8286 fax From: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" "E. Wayne Johnson" 11-JUL-2005 12:42:33.16 To: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com", IN%"rapport@comcast.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: welfare of organic animals This spring I took the training wheels off of my older (5 years old) son's bicycle after he had worn out his second set. We learned that he could ride pretty well enough without them, although there were incidents that required encouragement, rest, hugs, and Band-Aids in the first 2 days of "cold-turkey, no training wheels". Now we find that his bicycling performance far outstrips anything that he could have accomplished with those wheels on there holding him back. My 4 year-old boy wanted the same set-up but we soon agreed to put the wheels back for a few more months at least. Given that antibiotics similarly serve as a support propping up systems of suboptimal husbandry (skills), just taking the crutch away doesn't equal making things better but rather forces a new dependency on intrinsic skills rather than external support. The farms that decide to "go organic" are not necessarily those that have the best husbandry skills but are those driven by some other forces. There are good conventional herds where we learned over 20 years ago that some of the routine antibiotic use that was deemed essential was at best, useless. At 12:29 PM 7/11/2005, Rexxie1@aol.com wrote: >Hello, Stephen, and list, > >Fair question. First, I didn't mean to single out organic farms >necessarily and I haven't seen that many organic farms. But on some of >these organic farms I have seen some problems. I've also seen a lot of >conventional farms where there are similar problems and and others where >pigs and poultry have a good appearance but are supported by routine, >prophylactic use of antibiotics. So I think the system is important but >will not take care of all problems, especially in areas where >campylobacter and salmonella appear to be endemic in the environment, >e.g., in areas of longstanding and concentrated animal production, and in >the case of occasional accidental injuries that could occur anywhere. > >I think the first abstract notes that broiler infection with campylobacter >was about the same for conventional and organic farms and that with >respect to salmonella the study found more in organic farms. By this >measure, both organic and conventional farm systems could be >faulted. With respect to injuries, it is realistic to believe that no >matter the system, there are going to be occasional injuries that could >become infected and would benefit from being treated. Good husbandry and >good environment should keep these to a minimum, but even on the best farm >accidents can happen. > >Recognizing this, from a veterinary/medical standpoint should antibiotic >treatment be withheld from infected animals, if it could help them? what >are the welfare consequences of withholding them? and are there also human >health consequences of withholding antibiotic treatment that could kill >the infections in the animals? That is, the articles seem to indicate >that bacterial infections in humans would be more easily treated if no >antibiotics were used on animals. However, if, for example, campylobacter >were actually killed by treating the animals (and not potentially made >stronger by consistent low level doses as in conventional production's >antibiotic feed additive use) would this be better or worse for human >medicine than withholding antibiotic treatment? > >Hope this makes sense. > >Marlene Halverson > >----- > >In a message dated 7/11/2005 11:35:08 AM Central Standard Time, >rapport@comcast.net writes: >The core issue poses a different question: >What should we be thinking about the animal-husbandry methods that lead to > >"campylobacter and salmonella on chickens that are infected with them," or >"piglets were dripping yellow feces and limping and wasting from infected, >injured limbs...." > >Stephen >STEPHEN RAFE >----- > >This is my question for the list: What are the welfare impacts of >campylobacter and salmonella on chickens that are infected with them? I >have visited organic pig farms where piglets were dripping yellow feces >and limping and wasting from infected, injured limbs and feel these >conditions demonstrate poor welfare for the pigs and the pigs would have >benefited from antibiotic treatment. However, I have not similarly >observed (or perhaps have not known what I was observing) broiler >conditions. Are the bacteria simply being carried by the chickens with no >ill effects or are there similar symptoms (to pigs) that would show up and >indicate infection causing a welfare problem and would the chickens >exhibiting these symptoms benefit from antibiotic treatment? > >Thank you. > >Marlene Halverson > >----- > >Abstract: "Retail organic (n = 198) and conventional (n = 61) chickens >were analyzed. Most organic (76%) and conventional (74%) chickens were >contaminated with campylobacters. Salmonellae were recovered from 61% of >organic and 44% of conventional chickens. All Salmonella enterica >serovar Typhimurium isolates from conventional chickens were resistant >to five or more antimicrobials, whereas most S. enterica serovar >Typhimurium isolates (79%) from organic chickens were susceptible to 17 >antimicrobials tested. " > >Prevalence and Antimicrobial Resistance of Campylobacter spp. and >Salmonella Serovars in Organic Chickens from Maryland Retail Stores > Shenghui Cui, Beilei Ge, Jie Zheng, and Jianghong Meng > Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 2005; 71(7): p. 4108-4111 > http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/7/4108?ct > > > * E. Wayne Johnson DVM 302 Animal Sciences Laboratory 1207 West Gregory Drive Urbana, Illinois 61801 217 778 9961 mobile 217 367 8252 home 217 333 8286 fax From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 11-JUL-2005 12:58:24.06 To: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu", IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: welfare of organic animals In a message dated 7/11/2005 11:21:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, ewj@uiuc.edu writes: As recently as only fifty-five years ago it was demonstrated that the growth promotion produced by "sub-therapeutic" antimicrobial use is dependent upon presence of relative filth and relative poor husbandry conditions. It has been demonstrated again and again that where husbandry and sanitation are excellent, pigs may not show any response to subtherapeutic antimicrobials in the feed or water, even in the post-weaning period. Very interesting and sad that it is not widely known. This also has important implications for both human and animal health. Antibiotic resistant infections is a widespread problem in the western world. The surest way to push a microbe or parasite into chemoresistance is to keep the host in conditions that readily communicate the pathogen and then feed the host low doses of the chemical for long periods of time. From what I know about evolutionary biology, the chronic use of low dose antibiotics in farm animals is almost certainly the main cause of drug resistant human pathogens. I actually think that antibiotics should be as tightly controlled as narcotics. Good sanitation, support of animal health through diet and lifestyle and good quarantine measures should be sufficient to prevent most infectious disease in farm animals. Like in humans, low stress, exercise, good diet and pleasurable activities should improve immune function in animals. Perhaps animal welfare advocates and the medical community can find common cause in this issue. Michael Michalchik From: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" "E. Wayne Johnson" 11-JUL-2005 19:28:14.39 To: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: welfare of organic animals 2 Plasma protein (bovine or porcine, usually) have been used as a feed ingredient for weaned pigs for about the past 15 years or so, and fills a place in the diet of small pigs that was once usually occupied by dried skim milk. Plasma protein is high in digestible essential amino acids, and except for methionine, which must be added, has an amino acid profile that fits well into the diets of small piglets. Plasma protein is also highly palatable so that the young weaned pig starts on feed quickly. It has been variously debated and researched whether the positive effect of plasma protein is due to the presence of active antibodies or whether it is due to the high palatability and good nutriture provided by a diet high in plasma. I personally have never much cared for the active antibody theory and favoured the good nutriture theory. I think that the good nutriture theory is supported by the fact that a similar level of health and performance is be obtained by use of diets with likewise high quality ingredients replacing the plasma protein. The sow's milk is a excellent source of nutrition for the pig. The smaller the pig is when he is weaned, the closer the post-weaning diet must approximate to a sow-milk quality. There is some motivation to replace plasma protein with what ever might produce a similar result, as there is a relative paucity of plasma protein (expensive) and a relative glut of cheaper stuff like smelly fish oils that can provide essential fatty acids and a source of fatty acids for energy. The cheaper more traditional sort of diets for small piglets that usually result in post-weaning diarrhea typically contain a lot of plain standard soybean meal and perhaps some average quality fish meal in addition to corn, and often a source of lactose. Standard soybean meal contains a lot of carbohydrates like raffinose that are totally indigestible to the pig and other anti-nutritive factors. Low to average quality fish meal also has rather poor digestibility for the small weaned pig. E. coli bacteria thrive on raffinose and other dietary indigestibles in the small intestine and the growth and toxin production of the E. coli is the cause of most of the common post-weaning diarrhea. If otherwise healthy piglets are weaned into a warm, clean, dry environment and are fed a high quality well-balanced diet, post-weaning piglet diarrhea is seldom seen whether or not antimicrobials are included in the diet. Indeed, the inclusion of some common aminoglycosides like neomycin and apramycin may actually induce a serious enteric problem in some herds by destroying potentially beneficial or at least innocuous bacteria and selecting for pathogenic organisms especially the "aminoglycoside resistant E. coli". At 11:25 AM 7/11/2005, Rexxie1@aol.com wrote: >Hello, again, > >Here is a similar article to the broiler antibiotic abstracts being >circulated here as regards alternatives to antibiotics for piglets. > >And here is an additional question: what might be the health/other >impacts of using spray-dried plasma in piglet diets? > >Marlene Halverson >Animal Welfare Institute >---- > > >http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2005/050708.htm > >Boosting Immunity in Young Pigs: >Spray-dried plasma and fish oil help swine > >Illness during a piglet's first few weeks of life can affect its >eventual size and market-readiness. But the common practice of early >weaning increases piglets' risk of disease, because their immune and >digestive systems are less developed. So farmers must find ways to keep >their piglets free of diseases as they grow to market size. > >To help, Agricultural Research Service (ARS) animal physiologist Jeffery >A. Carroll is collaborating with swine nutritionists at the University >of Missouri (UM) in Columbia to look for ways to boost immunity in >piglets. > >"Finding ways to build immunity in young pigs has become more and more >important over the last two decades because weaning age has been >dramatically reduced," Carroll says. > >Carroll started this collaborative research while at the Animal >Physiology Research Unit in Columbia. Now at the Livestock Issues >Research Unit in Lubbock, Texas, he continues to test spray-dried >plasma, fish oil, and other nutritional supplements added to swine diets >as a way of boosting immunity. > >Spray-dried plasma is a byproduct of the meatpacking industry and is >often used in swine diets to boost growth and feed efficiency. After >animals are inspected and approved for human consumption, the blood is >collected at packinghouses and placed into containers treated with >anticoagulant. The blood is then chilled and centrifuged to separate the >plasma from the cell fraction. Individual fractions are then spray dried >for use in food, feed, and industrial applications. > >"The plasma protein is incorporated into the regular feed given to >piglets for the first few weeks after weaning," Carroll explains. The >piglets start off with a ration consisting of 5 to 7 percent plasma. >After a week or so, the level of plasma in their diet is reduced to 2.5 >to 3.5 percent, and eventually the piglet receives no more of the >immune-protecting ingredient. By that time, their immune systems should >be fairly well developed. But producers are also exploring other uses >for plasma proteins in immune system responses as the pig ages and new >stresses occur. > >Other scientists observed that feeding piglets plasma helped to increase >size and feed efficiency and speculated it helped with immunity. Carroll >believes plasma provides immune protection in the pig's intestine by >blocking pathogens from binding to the intestine. He has planned more >tests to see why plasma boosts immunity. > >Carroll and his UM colleagues are also looking at improving swine >immunity by including a 7-percent mixture of menhaden fish oil in the >diet. Like tuna and salmon, menhaden contain high levels of omega-3 >fatty acids. "Fish oil builds immunity at the cellular level. It's >absorbed and incorporated into the immune cells of the pig," Carroll >says. > >Plasma, fish oil, and other natural ingredients, Carroll says, may >replace growth-promoting antibiotics that pigs have traditionally been >given, especially since many countries are phasing out antibiotic use. > >-By David Elstein, formerly with ARS. > >This research is part of Animal Well-Being and Stress Control Systems, >an ARS National Program (#105) described on the World Wide Web at >www.nps.ars.usda.gov. > >Jeffery A. Carroll is in the USDA-ARS Livestock Issues Research Unit, >Route 3, Box 215, Lubbock, TX 79403; phone (806) 746-5356, fax (806) >744-4402. > >"Boosting Immunity in Young Pigs: Spray-dried plasma and fish oil help >swine" was published in the July 2005 issue of Agricultural Research >magazine. * E. Wayne Johnson DVM 302 Animal Sciences Laboratory 1207 West Gregory Drive Urbana, Illinois 61801 217 778 9961 mobile 217 367 8252 home 217 333 8286 fax From: IN%"clager@c.dk" "Christina Lager" 12-JUL-2005 00:37:05.03 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: new member introduction Hello all I would just like briefly to introduce myself My name is Christina Lager, I am a Danish veterinarian.=20 My primary interest is ethology in small animals.=20 I have been working with behavioural problems in dogs and cats since my gra= duation 6 years ago.=20 During my senior year as a veterinary student I wrote a project on social b= ehaviour and aggression in the domestic cat. Recently I have become interested in rabbits.=20 By the way: Any references to literature describing behaviour of rabbits ei= ther freeliving or kept in free range conditions would come in handy ... :o) Now i won't take up any moreof your valuable time, thank you for reading th= is far Regards from Christina Lager DVM Visg=E5rdvej 9=20 Sinding Denmark mvh Christina Lager From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 12-JUL-2005 03:09:51.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: organic piglets Dear Marlene and others, This animal husbandry discussion is interesting. In the USA, pigs are weaned very early in normal production, at least a week earlier than most European farmers would ever consider. I'm no longer a pig expert, but it would surprise me greatly if there were no data showing that weaning age affects piglets' susceptibility to weaning diarrhoeas. I was wondering what the praxis in US organic farming is regarding weaning age? Regards, Anna Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk" "Moira Harris" 12-JUL-2005 06:24:23.19 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: organic piglets Dear all, I'm no expert in anything but seem to remember hearing that the rationale for very early weaning of piglets in North America (called variously segregated early weaning; medicated early weaning etc) is to take advantage of the young piglet's immune system. Don't quote me but it's something along the lines of 'weaning' before the immunity provided to the piglet by its mother has declined, as opposed to waiting until it's built its own immunity. This seems to translate into weaning at 2 weeks-ish. Of course 'weaning' in this sense isn't weaning at all, but abruptly removing piglets from their mothers or vice versa. In the UK, organic farmers seem to wean their piglets at anywhere from 6 to 10 weeks as opposed to about 4 weeks in most non-organic systems (I'm sure there's a Soil Association standard for the minimum weaning age in organic systems but can't recall offhand what it is). I'd also be interested to hear at what age North American organic pig farmers wean their piglets. Best wishes, - Moira --On 12 July 2005 10:14 +0100 Anna Olsson wrote: > Dear Marlene and others, > > This animal husbandry discussion is interesting. In the USA, pigs are > weaned very early in normal production, at least a week earlier than most > European farmers would ever consider. I'm no longer a pig expert, but it > would surprise me greatly if there were no data showing that weaning age > affects piglets' susceptibility to weaning diarrhoeas. I was wondering > what the praxis in US organic farming is regarding weaning age? > > Regards, > Anna > > Dr Anna Olsson > Researcher > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > 4150-180 Porto > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > Fax +351 22 6099157 > ------------------------------------- Dr. Moira Harris Dept. Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol moira.harris@bristol.ac.uk 0117 928 9404 From: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" "E. Wayne Johnson" 12-JUL-2005 08:09:27.82 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: organic piglets I expect that the weaning age in "organic farming" here in the US of A is later than in "conventional farming". We have producers here in conventional production who routinely wean at 14 days, but there are still a few US herds that will delay weaning until 28 days. There is no doubt that pigs weaned later have less stringent dietary requirements than pigs weaned earlier. At some places in the world, weaning at 35 days might still be considered an "early" weaning. We used to see weaning at 8 weeks in some conventional production systems even here in the US, even in confinement, in the 1980's. Not all children are weaned by age 10. The main advantage of later weaning is that you get an older, bigger, pig that is able to tolerate poorer conditions and less expensive diets at weaning. Pigs weaned later than 24 days are also beginning to eat, even where there is There has been a lot of yapping about the immune system and what not but the fact is that the earlier weaned pig (before 3 weeks) is protected by the colostrum umbrella and is moved away from the sow before it picks up the diseases she carries, and such pigs are typically healthier in the post-weaning and growing finishing period than pigs weaned at 4 weeks. It is not overweening to say that earlier weaning gets us a healthier pig, and that late (more than 24 days) weaning can be a welfare problem because the pigs are more likely to have chronic disease issues. The earlier the pigs are weaned, the better the skill set on the part of the producers must be to provide care, a good environment and proper nutriture. Diarrhea occurs when there are husbandry problems such as animal care or the thermal and microbial environment, and/or diets are inappropriate. It is a peculiarity of the English technical language that we ought to say we wean pigs but not the sow, and by some it is considered technically incorrect to say that the sow is weaned. Those of us who didn't grow up in academia had been weaning sows for several years, not knowing any better. (Perhaps the reason we didnt notice our error is that technically speaking, we were not speaking English, per se.) The process of weaning is traumatic for mother and offspring, and there are psychic and physiologic implications. The English term seems to imply that being drawn from the breast is a gradual transition, a changing of affinity from milk to solid food. There are health and well-being as well as production aspects for weaning sows. The sow is capable of rather astonishing metabolic work in lactation. If the sow is weaned rather late, she can lose a lot of weight. Some highly productive sows can mobilize so much calcium from their bones that they develop axial and appendicular pathologic fractures as a result of an extended lactation. There are genetic lines of sows that do not tolerate well the abuse of a lactation of more than 24 days or so. On the other extreme, the sow seems to require at least some lactation to do well after giving birth. As a blanket statement, it would seem that lactation should ideally be a minimum of about 15 to 17 days to allow the sow to involute her uterus and "heal up". There are genetic lines that seem to do better with longer lactations and there are genetic lines of sows that do just fine with short two week lactations. At 04:14 AM 7/12/2005, Anna Olsson wrote: >Dear Marlene and others, > >This animal husbandry discussion is interesting. In the USA, pigs are >weaned very early in normal production, at least a week earlier than most >European farmers would ever consider. I'm no longer a pig expert, but it >would surprise me greatly if there were no data showing that weaning age >affects piglets' susceptibility to weaning diarrhoeas. I was wondering >what the praxis in US organic farming is regarding weaning age? > >Regards, >Anna > >Dr Anna Olsson >Researcher >Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > >Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC >Rua Campo Alegre 823 >4150-180 Porto >Phone +351 22 607 4900 >Fax +351 22 6099157 * E. Wayne Johnson DVM 302 Animal Sciences Laboratory 1207 West Gregory Drive Urbana, Illinois 61801 217 778 9961 mobile 217 367 8252 home 217 333 8286 fax From: IN%"storrey@uoguelph.ca" "Stephanie Torrey" 12-JUL-2005 08:28:41.58 To: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" "E. Wayne Johnson" CC: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: organic piglets The best diets and disease prevention schemes cannot completely compensate for the time required for the piglets to develop, in terms of gastrointestinal capabilities, dentition and, of course, behaviour. At less than 21 days of age, the young pig does have colostral immunity, but often has not learned to eat solid food and therefore, is presented with a number of challenges at weaning. Although many pigs do adapt within a couple of days after weaning and begin eating, some do not and develop excessive drinking and belly nosing, among other abnormal behaviour. It would be interesting to see if there are farms that do split-weaning (smaller birth weight pigs remaining on sows longer) and how these farms stack up in terms of disease. -- ******************************************* Stephanie Torrey Ph.D. Candidate, Animal Behaviour Department of Animal and Poultry Sciences University of Guelph Guelph, ON, N1G2W1 Canada (519) 824 4120 x56226 ******************************************* Quoting "E. Wayne Johnson" : > I expect that the weaning age in "organic farming" here in the US of A is > later than in "conventional farming". > > We have producers here in conventional production who routinely wean at 14 > days, but there are still a few US herds > that will delay weaning until 28 days. There is no doubt that pigs weaned > later have less stringent > dietary requirements than pigs weaned earlier. At some places in the > world, weaning at 35 days might > still be considered an "early" weaning. We used to see weaning at 8 weeks > in some conventional production systems > even here in the US, even in confinement, in the 1980's. Not all children > are weaned by age 10. > > The main advantage of later weaning is that you get an older, bigger, pig > that is able to tolerate poorer conditions > and less expensive diets at weaning. Pigs weaned later than 24 days are > also beginning to eat, even where > there is There has been a lot of yapping about the immune system and what > not > but the fact is that the earlier weaned pig (before 3 weeks) is protected > by the colostrum umbrella and > is moved away from the sow before it picks up the diseases she carries, and > such pigs are typically healthier > in the post-weaning and growing finishing period than pigs weaned at 4 > weeks. It is not overweening to say > that earlier weaning gets us a healthier pig, and that late (more than 24 > days) weaning can be a welfare problem > because the pigs are more likely to have chronic disease issues. > > The earlier the pigs are weaned, the better the skill set on the part of > the producers must be to provide care, > a good environment and proper nutriture. Diarrhea occurs when there are > husbandry problems such as animal care > or the thermal and microbial environment, and/or diets are inappropriate. > > It is a peculiarity of the English technical language that we ought to say > we wean pigs but not the sow, and by some it is > considered technically incorrect to say that the sow is weaned. Those of > us who didn't grow up in academia > had been weaning sows for several years, not knowing any better. (Perhaps > the reason we didnt notice our error > is that technically speaking, we were not speaking English, per se.) > The process of weaning is traumatic for mother and offspring, and there are > psychic and physiologic implications. > The English term seems to imply that being drawn from the breast is a > gradual transition, a changing of affinity > from milk to solid food. > > There are health and well-being as well as production aspects for weaning > sows. The sow is capable of rather > astonishing metabolic work in lactation. If the sow is weaned rather > late, she can lose a lot of weight. > Some highly productive sows can mobilize so much calcium from their bones > that they > develop axial and appendicular pathologic fractures as a result of an > extended lactation. There are > genetic lines of sows that do not tolerate well the abuse of a lactation of > more than 24 days or so. > On the other extreme, the sow seems to require at least some lactation to > do well after giving birth. > > As a blanket statement, it would seem that lactation should ideally be a > minimum of about 15 to 17 days to allow > the sow to involute her uterus and "heal up". There are genetic lines that > seem to do better with longer lactations and > there are genetic lines of sows that do just fine with short two week > lactations. > > > > At 04:14 AM 7/12/2005, Anna Olsson wrote: > >Dear Marlene and others, > > > >This animal husbandry discussion is interesting. In the USA, pigs are > >weaned very early in normal production, at least a week earlier than most > >European farmers would ever consider. I'm no longer a pig expert, but it > >would surprise me greatly if there were no data showing that weaning age > >affects piglets' susceptibility to weaning diarrhoeas. I was wondering > >what the praxis in US organic farming is regarding weaning age? > > > >Regards, > >Anna > > > >Dr Anna Olsson > >Researcher > >Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > > > >Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > >Rua Campo Alegre 823 > >4150-180 Porto > >Phone +351 22 607 4900 > >Fax +351 22 6099157 > > * > > > E. Wayne Johnson DVM > 302 Animal Sciences Laboratory > 1207 West Gregory Drive > Urbana, Illinois 61801 > > 217 778 9961 mobile > 217 367 8252 home > 217 333 8286 fax > > From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 12-JUL-2005 08:41:19.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Offering Organic Farming Incentives Tuesday, July 12, 2005, Vol. 6, Issue 28 Please add Pork Alert or editor@vancepublishing.com to your e-mail-filtering software or address book. Welcome to this week's edition of Pork AlertR, published by PorkR magazine and cosponsored by the National Pork Producers Council and Schering-Plough Animal Health. Pork Alert and its core sponsors are committed to providing you with the information you need to make informed and timely business decisions. [If you are having trouble seeing images in this newsletter, use this link.] ... Offering Organic Farming Incentives There may be tax incentives for farmers in Woodbury County, Iowa, who switch from conventional to organic farming. The program's goal is to attract organic food processors and other businesses to the county by building an organic-farming industry, reports the Des Moines Register. Rob Marqusee, the county's rural economic development director, says Iowa State University studies show that organic farming can produce higher profit margins than conventional farming. He presented a tax-rebate proposal to the county's Board of Supervisors. Marqusee points to the fact that grocery stores are increasingly allocating space to organic products. He argues that organic-food manufacturers will want a reliable domestic supply, and that it offers opportunity for rural areas. ... ... From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 12-JUL-2005 08:45:59.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: welfare of organic animals 2 Marlene Halverson quoted: > Plasma, fish oil, and other natural ingredients, Carroll says, may > replace growth-promoting antibiotics that pigs have traditionally been > given, especially since many countries are phasing out antibiotic use. Calling plasma, fish oil etc. "natural ingredients" is a bit of a stretch . Has anybody thought about the consequences for menhaden populations, and East Coast estuarine ecology generally, of processing menhaden into fish oil on an industrial scale? Is anyone here familiar with the history of our treatment of the menhaden populations? John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 12-JUL-2005 09:28:58.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: organic piglets >The English term seems to imply that being drawn from the breast is a >gradual transition, a changing of affinity >from milk to solid food. Not only the English language expert but also the biologist sees weaning as a gradual process. And it actually IS in domestic pigs, when free-living, as Per Jensen has elegantly demonstrated in his studies of free-ranging sows in a semi-natural environment. As the piglets grow older, the total number of sucklings decreases, and the proportion of sucklings terminated by the sow and sucklings where the sow stands up (which makes it more difficult for the piglets to reach the udder) increase. That is, the sow behaves in a way that makes it more difficult for the piglets to get milk. This is nicely illustrated in a graph on page 168 in Per Jensen's book The Ethology of Domestic Animals (CABI, 2002). Under natural conditions, piglets may suckle (although less and less frequently) until 17 weeks of age. Under conditions where the sow and piglets are free to move around, the sow can actively (don't confuse with consciously) control the metabolic strain by limiting piglet access to the udder. This option is very limited in most production systems, where the sow is confined with the piglets on a small area - she can get up but can't walk away. The metabolic strain consequently becomes much larger, artificially so - due not only to large litters but also to the human intervention with an adaptive behaviour. Biologists talk about the weaning conflict: between the interest of the offspring of unlimited and prolonged access to the great nutrition the milk provides, and the interest of the mother to save resources for future reproduction. We expect the evolutionary process to favour a weaning age where the best possible balance is achieved between the survival of the weaned offspring and survival of future offspring the mother may have. Best regards, Anna O > >There are health and well-being as well as production aspects for weaning >sows. The sow is capable of rather >astonishing metabolic work in lactation. If the sow is weaned rather >late, she can lose a lot of weight. >Some highly productive sows can mobilize so much calcium from their bones >that they >develop axial and appendicular pathologic fractures as a result of an >extended lactation. There are >genetic lines of sows that do not tolerate well the abuse of a lactation >of >more than 24 days or so. >On the other extreme, the sow seems to require at least some lactation to >do well after giving birth. > >As a blanket statement, it would seem that lactation should ideally be a >minimum of about 15 to 17 days to allow >the sow to involute her uterus and "heal up". There are genetic lines >that >seem to do better with longer lactations and >there are genetic lines of sows that do just fine with short two week >lactations. > > > >At 04:14 AM 7/12/2005, Anna Olsson wrote: >>Dear Marlene and others, >> >>This animal husbandry discussion is interesting. In the USA, pigs are >>weaned very early in normal production, at least a week earlier than most >>European farmers would ever consider. I'm no longer a pig expert, but it >>would surprise me greatly if there were no data showing that weaning age >>affects piglets' susceptibility to weaning diarrhoeas. I was wondering >>what the praxis in US organic farming is regarding weaning age? >> >>Regards, >>Anna >> >>Dr Anna Olsson >>Researcher >>Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics >> >>Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC >>Rua Campo Alegre 823 >>4150-180 Porto >>Phone +351 22 607 4900 >>Fax +351 22 6099157 > >* > > >E. Wayne Johnson DVM >302 Animal Sciences Laboratory >1207 West Gregory Drive >Urbana, Illinois 61801 > >217 778 9961 mobile >217 367 8252 home >217 333 8286 fax Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 12-JUL-2005 22:49:36.99 To: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" "E. Wayne Johnson" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: organic piglets Has anyone studied the behavior of older pigs who were weaned at = different ages? I would be particularly interested in what effect this = might have on aggressive behavior. Although there are issues of = gastrointestinal maturity, I am wondering what kinds of behavioral = maturity and learning are also occurring in this time period and whether = weaning age has any influence on this. (I'll admit to not knowing a = great deal about pigs, although I raise small ruminants where early = weaning, at least bottle raising, does produce considerable behavioral = alterations). In the domestic cats, we are coming to suspect that a = number of behavioral problems that people have with cats in their homes = may be exacerbated by having been weaned too soon (both from the mother = and the siblings). But since one of the behavioral problems with = rearing pigs is cannibalism, which is an aggressive/ingestive behavior, = I wonder what the influence of early weaning might have on this? Pardon = me if this is a naive question and this has already been considerably = researched. Janice=20 Janice Willard, DVM, MS Moscow, ID, USA =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: E. Wayne Johnson=20 To: Anna Olsson ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:48 AM Subject: Re: organic piglets I expect that the weaning age in "organic farming" here in the US of A = is later than in "conventional farming". We have producers here in conventional production who routinely wean = at 14 days, but there are still a few US herds that will delay weaning until 28 days. There is no doubt that pigs = weaned later have less stringent=20 dietary requirements than pigs weaned earlier. At some places in the = world, weaning at 35 days might still be considered an "early" weaning. We used to see weaning at 8 = weeks in some conventional production systems even here in the US, even in confinement, in the 1980's. Not all = children are weaned by age 10. The main advantage of later weaning is that you get an older, bigger, = pig that is able to tolerate poorer conditions and less expensive diets at weaning. Pigs weaned later than 24 days = are also beginning to eat, even where there is There has been a lot of yapping about the immune system and = what not but the fact is that the earlier weaned pig (before 3 weeks) is = protected by the colostrum umbrella and=20 is moved away from the sow before it picks up the diseases she = carries, and such pigs are typically healthier in the post-weaning and growing finishing period than pigs weaned at 4 = weeks. It is not overweening to say that earlier weaning gets us a healthier pig, and that late (more than = 24 days) weaning can be a welfare problem because the pigs are more likely to have chronic disease issues. The earlier the pigs are weaned, the better the skill set on the part = of the producers must be to provide care,=20 a good environment and proper nutriture. Diarrhea occurs when there = are husbandry problems such as animal care=20 or the thermal and microbial environment, and/or diets are = inappropriate. It is a peculiarity of the English technical language that we ought to = say we wean pigs but not the sow, and by some it is considered technically incorrect to say that the sow is weaned. Those = of us who didn't grow up in academia=20 had been weaning sows for several years, not knowing any better. = (Perhaps the reason we didnt notice our error=20 is that technically speaking, we were not speaking English, per se.)=20 The process of weaning is traumatic for mother and offspring, and = there are psychic and physiologic implications. The English term seems to imply that being drawn from the breast is a = gradual transition, a changing of affinity from milk to solid food. There are health and well-being as well as production aspects for = weaning sows. The sow is capable of rather astonishing metabolic work in lactation. If the sow is weaned rather = late, she can lose a lot of weight. =20 Some highly productive sows can mobilize so much calcium from their = bones that they develop axial and appendicular pathologic fractures as a result of an = extended lactation. There are genetic lines of sows that do not tolerate well the abuse of a = lactation of more than 24 days or so. On the other extreme, the sow seems to require at least some lactation = to do well after giving birth. =20 As a blanket statement, it would seem that lactation should ideally be = a minimum of about 15 to 17 days to allow=20 the sow to involute her uterus and "heal up". There are genetic lines = that seem to do better with longer lactations and there are genetic lines of sows that do just fine with short two week = lactations. At 04:14 AM 7/12/2005, Anna Olsson wrote: Dear Marlene and others, This animal husbandry discussion is interesting. In the USA, pigs = are weaned very early in normal production, at least a week earlier than = most European farmers would ever consider. I'm no longer a pig expert, = but it would surprise me greatly if there were no data showing that = weaning age affects piglets' susceptibility to weaning diarrhoeas. I was = wondering what the praxis in US organic farming is regarding weaning = age? Regards, Anna Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 * E. Wayne Johnson DVM 302 Animal Sciences Laboratory 1207 West Gregory Drive=20 Urbana, Illinois 61801=20 217 778 9961 mobile 217 367 8252 home 217 333 8286 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.12/46 - Release Date: = 7/11/2005 From: IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" "Donald Broom" 13-JUL-2005 02:27:50.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"LyndhurstPark@aol.com" Subj: from handler to dog Can anyone direct me towards research done on - the transferring of emotional states from handler to dog (yes I know, its highly controversial). Gordon Butcher Dear Gordon Here are a couple of papers from our group which concern the general issue. Jagoe, A. and Serpell, J. 1996. Owner characteristics and interactions and the prevalence of canine behaviour problems. Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci., 47, 31-42. Podberscek, A.L. and Serpell, J.A. 1997. Aggressive behaviour in English Cocker Spaniels and the personality of their owners. Vet. Rec., 141, 73-76. Don Broom -- Professor Donald M. Broom Colleen Macleod Professor of Animal Welfare Animal Welfare and Human-Animal Interactions Group Department of Veterinary Medicine University of Cambridge Madingley Road CAMBRIDGE CB3 0ES U.K. Telephone 0044 (0)1223 337697 Fax 0044 (0)1223 337610 and St Catharine's College Cambridge CB2 1RL U.K. 0044 (0)1223 338344 e-mail dmb16@cam.ac.uk From: IN%"clager@c.dk" "Christina Lager" 13-JUL-2005 05:05:23.86 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: SV: from handler to dog Dear Gordon You might want to read an article pupblised in The European Journal of Companion Animal Practice Vol 15 - (1) - april 2005 The effects of signals from experienced and inexperienced dog handlers' on the behaviour of dogs. By H. Lynge and J. Ladewig Best regards from Christina Lager Sinding Denmark Can anyone direct me towards research done on - the transferring of emotional states from handler to dog (yes I know, its highly controversial). Gordon Butcher From: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" "E. Wayne Johnson" 13-JUL-2005 06:23:06.71 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard", IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" "E. Wayne Johnson" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: organic piglets The behavioural question is an interesting one. I doubt that it has been researched adequately, and particularly not in commercial settings. I do not find that cannibalism is increased with early weaning. There can be a definite increase in navel sucking behaviour with decreasing age if the diets are inappropriately formulated, but that is not seen when the diets match the age and weight of the pig, which suggests that the behavior is nutriture-driven. I have noticed that some genetic lines of pigs are more likely to display this behaviour than others when diets are not right. A friend from Rochester NY whose family raises Siamese cats told me once that too-early weaning tends to make them fractious. Can this aggressiveness be explained as a hunger driven behaviour? I would agree that the breast provides more than just milk. It would be interesting to know if there are species differences and how the important the non-nutritive effects are to the pig. At 11:43 PM 7/12/2005, Janice Willard wrote: >Has anyone studied the behavior of older pigs who were weaned at different >ages? I would be particularly interested in what effect this might have on >aggressive behavior. Although there are issues of gastrointestinal >maturity, I am wondering what kinds of behavioral maturity and learning >are also occurring in this time period and whether weaning age has any >influence on this. (I'll admit to not knowing a great deal about pigs, >although I raise small ruminants where early weaning, at least bottle >raising, does produce considerable behavioral alterations). In the >domestic cats, we are coming to suspect that a number of behavioral >problems that people have with cats in their homes may be exacerbated by >having been weaned too soon (both from the mother and the siblings). But >since one of the behavioral problems with rearing pigs is cannibalism, >which is an aggressive/ingestive behavior, I wonder what the influence of >early weaning might have on this? Pardon me if this is a naive question >and this has already been considerably researched. > >Janice > >Janice Willard, DVM, MS >Moscow, ID, USA >----- Original Message ----- >From: E. Wayne Johnson >To: Anna Olsson ; >applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:48 AM >Subject: Re: organic piglets > >I expect that the weaning age in "organic farming" here in the US of A is >later than in "conventional farming". > >We have producers here in conventional production who routinely wean at 14 >days, but there are still a few US herds >that will delay weaning until 28 days. There is no doubt that pigs weaned >later have less stringent >dietary requirements than pigs weaned earlier. At some places in the >world, weaning at 35 days might >still be considered an "early" weaning. We used to see weaning at 8 weeks >in some conventional production systems >even here in the US, even in confinement, in the 1980's. Not all children >are weaned by age 10. > >The main advantage of later weaning is that you get an older, bigger, pig >that is able to tolerate poorer conditions >and less expensive diets at weaning. Pigs weaned later than 24 days are >also beginning to eat, even where >there is There has been a lot of yapping about the immune system and >what not >but the fact is that the earlier weaned pig (before 3 weeks) is protected >by the colostrum umbrella and >is moved away from the sow before it picks up the diseases she carries, >and such pigs are typically healthier >in the post-weaning and growing finishing period than pigs weaned at 4 >weeks. It is not overweening to say >that earlier weaning gets us a healthier pig, and that late (more than 24 >days) weaning can be a welfare problem >because the pigs are more likely to have chronic disease issues. > >The earlier the pigs are weaned, the better the skill set on the part of >the producers must be to provide care, >a good environment and proper nutriture. Diarrhea occurs when there are >husbandry problems such as animal care >or the thermal and microbial environment, and/or diets are inappropriate. > >It is a peculiarity of the English technical language that we ought to say >we wean pigs but not the sow, and by some it is >considered technically incorrect to say that the sow is weaned. Those of >us who didn't grow up in academia >had been weaning sows for several years, not knowing any better. (Perhaps >the reason we didnt notice our error >is that technically speaking, we were not speaking English, per se.) >The process of weaning is traumatic for mother and offspring, and there >are psychic and physiologic implications. >The English term seems to imply that being drawn from the breast is a >gradual transition, a changing of affinity >from milk to solid food. > >There are health and well-being as well as production aspects for weaning >sows. The sow is capable of rather >astonishing metabolic work in lactation. If the sow is weaned rather >late, she can lose a lot of weight. >Some highly productive sows can mobilize so much calcium from their bones >that they >develop axial and appendicular pathologic fractures as a result of an >extended lactation. There are >genetic lines of sows that do not tolerate well the abuse of a lactation >of more than 24 days or so. >On the other extreme, the sow seems to require at least some lactation to >do well after giving birth. > >As a blanket statement, it would seem that lactation should ideally be a >minimum of about 15 to 17 days to allow >the sow to involute her uterus and "heal up". There are genetic lines >that seem to do better with longer lactations and >there are genetic lines of sows that do just fine with short two week >lactations. > > > >At 04:14 AM 7/12/2005, Anna Olsson wrote: >>Dear Marlene and others, >> >>This animal husbandry discussion is interesting. In the USA, pigs are >>weaned very early in normal production, at least a week earlier than most >>European farmers would ever consider. I'm no longer a pig expert, but it >>would surprise me greatly if there were no data showing that weaning age >>affects piglets' susceptibility to weaning diarrhoeas. I was wondering >>what the praxis in US organic farming is regarding weaning age? >> >>Regards, >>Anna >> >>Dr Anna Olsson >>Researcher >>Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics >> >>Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC >>Rua Campo Alegre 823 >>4150-180 Porto >>Phone +351 22 607 4900 >>Fax +351 22 6099157 > >* > > >E. Wayne Johnson DVM >302 Animal Sciences Laboratory >1207 West Gregory Drive >Urbana, Illinois 61801 > >217 778 9961 mobile >217 367 8252 home >217 333 8286 fax > > >---------- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.12/46 - Release Date: 7/11/2005 > >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 * E. Wayne Johnson DVM 302 Animal Sciences Laboratory 1207 West Gregory Drive Urbana, Illinois 61801 217 778 9961 mobile 217 367 8252 home 217 333 8286 fax From: IN%"Kim.Dekkers@wur.nl" "Dekkers, Kim" 13-JUL-2005 06:58:07.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: movement tracking & analysis hi Ray, I don't believe there are really any -significant- cheaper alternatives to the Ethovision system. It seems as if the alternatives have become more expensive over the years. Most of the alternatives work with add-ons which are actually always needed to perform normal tests with. So they seem like cheaper alternatives but in the end it more or less equals. However, Lolitrack really seems to be a lot cheaper (http://www.loligosystems.com), but try the program for yourself (you can download it from their website). It is way too limited in tracking and analysis options, and tracking didn't look that accurate either. Besides, you can easily track multiple animals simultaneously with the Ethovision system. And last but not least, compared to many other companies I had contact with in the past, the guys from noldus offered much better &faster service, so I cannot think of any other alternative when it comes to purchasing a video-tracking system. hope this helps, Kim From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 13-JUL-2005 09:42:39.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: growing meat from tissues Realizing this is an applied ethology list, but that there are a number of animal welfare scientists and vets on it, I am would be interested in comments from them on the article description below (from latest Farmed Animal Watch newsletter), in particular the likelihood "that cultured meat may help reduce human dependency on farmed animals, providing a more humane alternative to breeding, raising, and slaughtering billions of animals for food." Thanks in advance. Marlene Halverson 1. Tissue Engineering Study Says Animal Flesh Can be Grown in Labs An article in the latest edition Tissue Engineering discusses the feasibility of producing "cultured meat" in laboratories as an alternative to raising and slaughtering farmed animals. (The full text is available online, see link below). Authored by a team of international researchers, the article describes two possible methods of generating edible animal flesh based on tissue engineering. The first method is described as a "scaffold-based" technique that involves layering sheets of engineered tissue to replicate various types of processed meat products. The second, more complex method involves culturing progenitor (parent) cells on small beads in a nutrient-rich medium. Cultured meat has been produced on a small scale by the US National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) to maintain food supplies during longer space flights. Three research teams have examined the subject closely in the past. The current article's authors cite several potential benefits to finding an affordable way to produce in vitro meat: "With cultured meat, the ratio of saturated to polyunsaturated fatty acids could be better controlled; the incidence of foodborne disease could be significantly reduced; and resources could be used more efficiently, as biological structures required for locomotion and reproduction would not have to be grown or supported." According to one physicist quoted separately, 21% of the carbon dioxide produced by humans is attributable to our consumption of animals. The article also notes that cultured meat may help reduce human dependency on farmed animals, providing a more humane alternative to breeding, raising, and slaughtering billions of animals for food. The authors' "back-of-the-envelope calculations" suggest that the world's demand for animal flesh could be generated from a single cell. However, the technology faces several potential hurdles, including affordability of the process and acceptability among meat consumers. 1. "In-Vitro Cultured Meat Production," Tissue Engineering, May 2005 Full article (PDF file, 54k): _http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/ten.2005.11.659_ (http://en.groundspring.org/EmailNow/pub.php?module=URLTracker&cmd=track&j=36274980&u=327999) 2. "Paper Says Edible Meat Can be Grown in a Lab on Industrial Scale," University of Maryland, 7/6/05 _http://www.newsdesk.umd.edu/scitech/release.cfm?ArticleID=1098_ (http://en.groundspring.org/EmailNow/pub.php?module=URLTracker&cmd=track&j=36274980&u=32800 0) 3. "Burgers from a Lab? US Study Says it's Possible," Reuters, 7/6/05 _http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N06702090.htm_ (http://en.groundspring.org/EmailNow/pub.php?module=URLTracker&cmd=track&j=36274980&u=328001) From: IN%"rbogle@sonic.net" "Rick Bogle" 13-JUL-2005 09:55:32.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: growing meat from tissues "I am would be interested in comments from them on the article description below (from latest Farmed Animal Watch newsletter), in particular the likelihood 'that cultured meat may help reduce human dependency on farmed animals, providing a more humane alternative to breeding, raising, and slaughtering billions of animals for food.'" The claim seems straightforward. If people eat more cultured meat, and if their overall meat consumption remains constant, then, necessarily, per capita, fewer animals would be bred, raised, or slaughtered. Were you concerened with the observation that breeding, raising, and slaughtering billions of animals is less humane than eating cultured meat? Please elaborate. Rick Bogle Madison,WI -----Original Message----- From: Rexxie1@aol.com [mailto:Rexxie1@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 10:42 AM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: growing meat from tissues Realizing this is an applied ethology list, but that there are a number of animal welfare scientists and vets on it, I am would be interested in comments from them on the article description below (from latest Farmed Animal Watch newsletter), in particular the likelihood "that cultured meat may help reduce human dependency on farmed animals, providing a more humane alternative to breeding, raising, and slaughtering billions of animals for food." Thanks in advance. Marlene Halverson 1. Tissue Engineering Study Says Animal Flesh Can be Grown in Labs An article in the latest edition Tissue Engineering discusses the feasibility of producing "cultured meat" in laboratories as an alternative to raising and slaughtering farmed animals. (The full text is available online, see link below). Authored by a team of international researchers, the article describes two possible methods of generating edible animal flesh based on tissue engineering. The first method is described as a "scaffold-based" technique that involves layering sheets of engineered tissue to replicate various types of processed meat products. The second, more complex method involves culturing progenitor (parent) cells on small beads in a nutrient-rich medium. Cultured meat has been produced on a small scale by the US National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) to maintain food supplies during longer space flights. Three research teams have examined the subject closely in the past. The current article's authors cite several potential benefits to finding an affordable way to produce in vitro meat: "With cultured meat, the ratio of saturated to polyunsaturated fatty acids could be better controlled; the incidence of foodborne disease could be significantly reduced; and resources could be used more efficiently, as biological structures required for locomotion and reproduction would not have to be grown or supported." According to one physicist quoted separately, 21% of the carbon dioxide produced by humans is attributable to our consumption of animals. The article also notes that cultured meat may help reduce human dependency on farmed animals, providing a more humane alternative to breeding, raising, and slaughtering billions of animals for food. The authors' "back-of-the-envelope calculations" suggest that the world's demand for animal flesh could be generated from a single cell. However, the technology faces several potential hurdles, including affordability of the process and acceptability among meat consumers. 1. "In-Vitro Cultured Meat Production," Tissue Engineering, May 2005 Full article (PDF file, 54k): http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/ten.2005.11.659 2. "Paper Says Edible Meat Can be Grown in a Lab on Industrial Scale," University of Maryland, 7/6/05 http://www.newsdesk.umd.edu/scitech/release.cfm?ArticleID=1098 3. "Burgers from a Lab? US Study Says it's Possible," Reuters, 7/6/05 http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N06702090.htm From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Greg & Jackie" 13-JUL-2005 16:08:56.55 To: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" "'E. Wayne Johnson'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: organic piglets "A friend from Rochester NY whose family raises Siamese cats told me = once that too-early weaning tends to make them fractious.=A0 Can this aggressiveness be explained as a hunger driven behaviour? I would agree that the breast provides more than just milk.=A0 It would = be interesting to know if there are species differences and how the=20 important the non-nutritive effects are to the pig." Of course there is Dog Appeasing Pheromone taken from the intermamary = skin spaces of the lactating bitch, synthesized, and used in a slow release format to calm distressed or fearful adult dogs (during storms, noise events, rehoming etc) as it calms puppies when they suckle.=20 Perhaps pigs have something similar.=20 Regards, Jacqueline Perkins BVSchons MACVSc (animal behaviour) BA -----Original Message----- From: E. Wayne Johnson [mailto:ewj@uiuc.edu]=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:50 PM To: Janice Willard; E. Wayne Johnson Cc: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: organic piglets The behavioural question is an interesting one.=A0=20 I doubt that it has been researched adequately,=20 and particularly not in commercial settings. I do not find that cannibalism is increased with early weaning.=A0=20 There can be a definite increase in navel sucking behaviour with = decreasing age if the diets are inappropriately formulated, but that is not seen when = the diets match the age and weight of the pig, which suggests that the behavior is = nutriture-driven.=A0 I have noticed that some genetic lines of pigs are = more likely to display this behaviour than others when diets are not right. A friend from Rochester NY whose family raises Siamese cats told me once that too-early weaning tends to make them fractious.=A0 Can this aggressiveness be explained as a hunger driven behaviour? I would agree that the breast provides more than just milk.=A0 It would = be interesting to know if there are species differences and how the=20 important the non-nutritive effects are to the pig. At 11:43 PM 7/12/2005, Janice Willard wrote: Has anyone studied the behavior of older pigs who were weaned at = different ages? I would be particularly interested in what effect this might have = on aggressive behavior.=A0 Although there are issues of gastrointestinal maturity, I am wondering what kinds of behavioral maturity and learning = are also occurring in this time period and whether weaning age has any = influence on this.=A0 (I'll admit to not knowing a great deal about pigs, although = I raise small ruminants where early weaning, at least bottle raising, does produce considerable behavioral alterations).=A0 In the domestic cats, = we are coming to suspect that a number of behavioral problems that people have = with cats in their homes may be exacerbated by having been weaned too soon = (both from the mother and the siblings).=A0 But since one of the behavioral = problems with rearing pigs is cannibalism, which is an aggressive/ingestive = behavior, I wonder what the influence of early weaning might have on this?=A0 = Pardon me if this is a naive question and this has already been considerably researched. =A0 Janice=20 =A0 Janice Willard, DVM, MS Moscow, ID, USA=A0=A0=A0=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: E. Wayne Johnson=20 To: Anna Olsson ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:48 AM Subject: Re: organic piglets I expect that the weaning age in "organic farming" here in the US of A = is later than in "conventional farming". We have producers here in conventional production who routinely wean at = 14 days, but there are still a few US herds that will delay weaning until 28 days.=A0 There is no doubt that pigs = weaned later have less stringent=20 dietary requirements than pigs weaned earlier.=A0 At some places in the = world, weaning at 35 days might still be considered an "early" weaning.=A0 We used to see weaning at 8 = weeks in some conventional production systems even here in the US, even in confinement, in the 1980's.=A0 Not all = children are weaned by age 10. The main advantage of later weaning is that you get an older, bigger, = pig that is able to tolerate poorer conditions and less expensive diets at weaning.=A0=A0 Pigs weaned later than 24 = days are also beginning to eat, even where there is=A0=A0 There has been a lot of yapping about the immune system = and what not but the fact is that the earlier weaned pig (before 3 weeks) is = protected by the colostrum umbrella and=20 is moved away from the sow before it picks up the diseases she carries, = and such pigs are typically healthier in the post-weaning and growing finishing period than pigs weaned at 4 weeks.=A0 It is not overweening to say that earlier weaning gets us a healthier pig, and that late (more than = 24 days) weaning can be a welfare problem because the pigs are more likely to have chronic disease issues. The earlier the pigs are weaned, the better the skill set on the part of = the producers must be to provide care,=20 a good environment and proper nutriture.=A0 Diarrhea occurs when there = are husbandry problems such as animal care=20 or the thermal and microbial environment, and/or diets are = inappropriate. It is a peculiarity of the English technical language that we ought to = say we wean pigs but not the sow, and by some it is considered technically incorrect to say that the sow is weaned.=A0 Those = of us who didn't grow up in academia=20 had been weaning sows for several years, not knowing any better.=A0 = (Perhaps the reason we didnt notice our error=20 is that technically speaking, we were not speaking English, per se.)=20 The process of weaning is traumatic for mother and offspring, and there = are psychic and physiologic implications. The English term seems to imply that being drawn from the breast is a gradual transition, a changing of affinity from milk to solid food. There are health and well-being as well as production aspects for = weaning sows.=A0 The sow is capable of rather astonishing metabolic work in lactation.=A0 If the sow is weaned rather = late,=A0 she can lose a lot of weight.=A0=20 Some highly productive sows can mobilize so much calcium from their = bones that they develop axial and appendicular pathologic fractures as a result of an extended lactation.=A0 There are genetic lines of sows that do not tolerate well the abuse of a lactation = of more than 24 days or so. On the other extreme, the sow seems to require at least some lactation = to do well after giving birth.=A0=20 As a blanket statement, it would seem that lactation should ideally be a minimum of about 15 to 17 days to allow=20 the sow to involute her uterus and "heal up".=A0 There are genetic lines = that seem to do better with longer lactations and there are genetic lines of sows that do just fine with short two week lactations. At 04:14 AM 7/12/2005, Anna Olsson wrote: Dear Marlene and others, This animal husbandry discussion is interesting. In the USA, pigs are = weaned very early in normal production, at least a week earlier than most = European farmers would ever consider. I'm no longer a pig expert, but it would surprise me greatly if there were no data showing that weaning age = affects piglets' susceptibility to weaning diarrhoeas. I was wondering what the praxis in US organic farming is regarding weaning age? Regards, Anna Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 * E. Wayne Johnson DVM 302 Animal Sciences Laboratory 1207 West Gregory Drive=20 Urbana, Illinois 61801=20 217 778 9961 mobile 217 367 8252 home 217 333 8286 fax No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.12/46 - Release Date: 7/11/2005 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 * E. Wayne Johnson DVM 302 Animal Sciences Laboratory 1207 West Gregory Drive=20 Urbana, Illinois 61801=20 217 778 9961 mobile 217 367 8252 home 217 333 8286 fax From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Greg & Jackie" 13-JUL-2005 16:31:02.26 To: IN%"dmills@lincoln.ac.uk" "'Daniel Mills'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Accountability & transparency in our profession =932. I am this week due to present a little study on the responsiveness = of dogs to commands with different emotional content. in short, when the commands have negative affect the responses are less reliable.=94 I presume the paper Dr Mills refers to is to be delivered at the International Veterinary Behaviour Conference.=20 Dr Mills was the =93gatekeeper=94 responsible for gathering submitted = papers, and lost/deleted/ my submitted paper; nothing at all was ever done about this =93mistake=94.=20 If someone seemingly as nice as Dr Mills sees no problem with this, then = the whole industry has a very serious endemic problem with transparency and accountability.=20 Now I can hear the snipers already telling me this topic is = out-of-bounds. But that is precisely how such problems perpetuate, because there is resistance to such organizational reform, and blatant attempts to shut aggrieved people up.=20 So go on, attack me, insult me, but no matter how you cut it, there is a problem with this outcome of the gatekeeper giving a paper while mine = was "deleted" "accidentally" then nothing was done about it once the = "mistake" was identified.=20 We live in an age of accountability. It has apparently not caught up = with our profession, yet. These are important issues to the future stability = of our profession. No, I will not hush up and become a part of this issue. Jacqueline Perkins BVSchons MACVSc (animal behaviour)BA =20 -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Mills [mailto:dmills@lincoln.ac.uk]=20 Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 11:46 PM To: LyndhurstPark@aol.com; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: Enquiry A couple of studies of tangential interest, might be : 1. Linda keeling's study which looked at the effect of telling = horse-owners that they were going to=A0open an umbrella=A0near=A0the horse on the = riders and horse's reaction. This was presented as ISAZ last year. they didn't = startle the horse but the horse's HR went up after the riders so they appeared = to be influencing it 2. I am this week due to present a little study on the responsiveness of dogs to commands with different emotional content. in short, when the commands have negative affect the responses are less reliable. Hope this helps and please post your results if you find out more=20 bets wishes Daniel S. Mills BVSc PhD ILTM CBiol MIBiol MRCVS=20 Professor & RCVS Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Behavioural = Medicine=20 Animal Behaviour, Cognition & Welfare Group=20 University of Lincoln,=20 Dept of Biological Sciences,=20 Riseholme Park,=20 Lincoln, U.K.=20 LN2 2LG=20 tel 44 (0)1522 895356=20 email dmills@lincoln.ac.uk=20 web page: http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/dbs/staff/479.asp=20 =A0 From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com [mailto:LyndhurstPark@aol.com]=20 Sent: 10 July 2005 14:04 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Enquiry I am a mature student in the UK studying Canine Ethology. My research = thesis is on the relationship between handler and dog in specialist fields i.e. SAR, Police & Armed Forces. =A0 Can anyone direct me towards research done on - the transferring of emotional states from handler to dog (yes I know, its highly = controversial). =A0 Gordon Butcher From: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" "E. Wayne Johnson" 13-JUL-2005 17:56:37.41 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Greg & Jackie", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Accountability & transparency in our profession Indeed I have no idea what the issue is here... but in a global society in which mealy-mouthed timidity in interaction seems to be the norm, Jacqueline's directness and persistence is quite refreshing. Sic 'em Jackie. At 05:30 PM 7/13/2005, you wrote: >"2. I am this week due to present a little study on the responsiveness of >dogs to commands with different emotional content. in short, when the >commands have negative affect the responses are less reliable." >I presume the paper Dr Mills refers to is to be delivered at the >International Veterinary Behaviour Conference. >Dr Mills was the "gatekeeper" responsible for gathering submitted papers, >and lost/deleted/ my submitted paper; nothing at all was ever done about >this "mistake". >If someone seemingly as nice as Dr Mills sees no problem with this, then the >whole industry has a very serious endemic problem with transparency and >accountability. >Now I can hear the snipers already telling me this topic is out-of-bounds. >But that is precisely how such problems perpetuate, because there is >resistance to such organizational reform, and blatant attempts to shut >aggrieved people up. >So go on, attack me, insult me, but no matter how you cut it, there is a >problem with this outcome of the gatekeeper giving a paper while mine was >"deleted" "accidentally" then nothing was done about it once the "mistake" >was identified. >We live in an age of accountability. It has apparently not caught up with >our profession, yet. These are important issues to the future stability of >our profession. No, I will not hush up and become a part of this issue. >Jacqueline Perkins >BVSchons MACVSc (animal behaviour)BA > >-----Original Message----- >From: Daniel Mills [mailto:dmills@lincoln.ac.uk] >Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 11:46 PM >To: LyndhurstPark@aol.com; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: RE: Enquiry > >A couple of studies of tangential interest, might be : >1. Linda keeling's study which looked at the effect of telling horse-owners >that they were going to open an umbrella near the horse on the riders and >horse's reaction. This was presented as ISAZ last year. they didn't startle >the horse but the horse's HR went up after the riders so they appeared to be >influencing it >2. I am this week due to present a little study on the responsiveness of >dogs to commands with different emotional content. in short, when the >commands have negative affect the responses are less reliable. >Hope this helps and please post your results if you find out more >bets wishes >Daniel S. Mills BVSc PhD ILTM CBiol MIBiol MRCVS >Professor & RCVS Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Behavioural Medicine >Animal Behaviour, Cognition & Welfare Group >University of Lincoln, >Dept of Biological Sciences, >Riseholme Park, >Lincoln, U.K. >LN2 2LG >tel 44 (0)1522 895356 >email dmills@lincoln.ac.uk >web page: http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/dbs/staff/479.asp > > > >From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com [mailto:LyndhurstPark@aol.com] >Sent: 10 July 2005 14:04 >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Re: Enquiry >I am a mature student in the UK studying Canine Ethology. My research thesis >is on the relationship between handler and dog in specialist fields i.e. >SAR, Police & Armed Forces. > >Can anyone direct me towards research done on - the transferring of >emotional states from handler to dog (yes I know, its highly controversial). > >Gordon Butcher * E. Wayne Johnson DVM 302 Animal Sciences Laboratory 1207 West Gregory Drive Urbana, Illinois 61801 217 778 9961 mobile 217 367 8252 home 217 333 8286 fax From: IN%"dmills@lincoln.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" 13-JUL-2005 19:30:30.36 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Greg & Jackie", IN%"dmills@lincoln.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Accountability & transparency in our profession I would like to put the record straight on this matter and hope it can = then be closed. I find the comments of Dr Perkins offensive. I have = explained to her what happened in this case in a private e-mail after = her last public e-mail on the list about this mater (which I considered = the appropriate forum for such matters) as she presents her = interpretation and not fact. However, since she has decided to make = another public mailingI feel I must now make a response and apologise to = those of you who would rather this sort of exchange did not occur on = this list. My reasoning is the defence of not only my own reputation and = integrity but also that of the institution and organisations I serve.=20 Dr Perkins did not follow the instuctions for guidance for authors and = subsequently submitted another paper using the correct guidelines (the = submisison was pasted into the e-mail and not attached). When collating = more than 100 submisisons for the meeting from several hundred e-mails = her original paper was overlooked as I only attended to the submisisons = with attachments as this was the method used to identify those with = submisisons for consideration. these were then sent out for blind review = and each paper scored by at least 4 reviewers. The programme was then = determined on merit. I am actually presenting the work she refers to on = behalf of a Japanese colleague who worked with us on the project and who = does not feel she has the necessary linguistic skills to convey the work = to best effect at the meeting. I withdrew my own submisison as a result, = since we also only allow one presentation per speaker in order to = encourage diversity at the meeting. Once Dr Perkins decided to make a = public issue of this matter, rather than contact me privately about the = oversight, I explained it was impossible to get her work reviewed = anonymously and asked how it was possible to treat her fairly. To put it = politely, her reply was not constructive and offensive to other = professionals in the field. I find therefore take issues with the claims = made in her e-mail here.=20 I have always acted in good faith in these matters and am saddened that = it seems to have arisen again. I very much hope Dr Perkins will submit her work for proper publication = ina peer reviewed journal as if it has the necessary scientific merit I = am sure it will be accepted.=20 We are all human and I freely admit I overlooked her paper but Dr = Perkins must accpet some responsibility in this matter by not following = the instructions for authors. I am happy for us to have a discussion on the integrity of my profession = but believe it is essential that it is based on objective evidence and = not perceptions which are personal, inacciraye and hurtful. =20 Daniel Mills ________________________________ From: Greg & Jackie [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Wed 7/13/2005 11:30 PM To: 'Daniel Mills'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Accountability & transparency in our profession "2. I am this week due to present a little study on the responsiveness = of dogs to commands with different emotional content. in short, when the commands have negative affect the responses are less reliable." I presume the paper Dr Mills refers to is to be delivered at the International Veterinary Behaviour Conference. Dr Mills was the "gatekeeper" responsible for gathering submitted = papers, and lost/deleted/ my submitted paper; nothing at all was ever done about this "mistake". If someone seemingly as nice as Dr Mills sees no problem with this, then = the whole industry has a very serious endemic problem with transparency and accountability. Now I can hear the snipers already telling me this topic is = out-of-bounds. But that is precisely how such problems perpetuate, because there is resistance to such organizational reform, and blatant attempts to shut aggrieved people up. So go on, attack me, insult me, but no matter how you cut it, there is a problem with this outcome of the gatekeeper giving a paper while mine = was "deleted" "accidentally" then nothing was done about it once the = "mistake" was identified. We live in an age of accountability. It has apparently not caught up = with our profession, yet. These are important issues to the future stability = of our profession. No, I will not hush up and become a part of this issue. Jacqueline Perkins BVSchons MACVSc (animal behaviour)BA =20 -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Mills [mailto:dmills@lincoln.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 11:46 PM To: LyndhurstPark@aol.com; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: Enquiry A couple of studies of tangential interest, might be : 1. Linda keeling's study which looked at the effect of telling = horse-owners that they were going to open an umbrella near the horse on the riders = and horse's reaction. This was presented as ISAZ last year. they didn't = startle the horse but the horse's HR went up after the riders so they appeared = to be influencing it 2. I am this week due to present a little study on the responsiveness of dogs to commands with different emotional content. in short, when the commands have negative affect the responses are less reliable. Hope this helps and please post your results if you find out more bets wishes Daniel S. Mills BVSc PhD ILTM CBiol MIBiol MRCVS Professor & RCVS Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Behavioural = Medicine Animal Behaviour, Cognition & Welfare Group University of Lincoln, Dept of Biological Sciences, Riseholme Park, Lincoln, U.K. LN2 2LG tel 44 (0)1522 895356 email dmills@lincoln.ac.uk web page: http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/dbs/staff/479.asp =20 From: LyndhurstPark@aol.com [mailto:LyndhurstPark@aol.com] Sent: 10 July 2005 14:04 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Enquiry I am a mature student in the UK studying Canine Ethology. My research = thesis is on the relationship between handler and dog in specialist fields i.e. SAR, Police & Armed Forces. =20 Can anyone direct me towards research done on - the transferring of emotional states from handler to dog (yes I know, its highly = controversial). =20 Gordon Butcher From: IN%"hilit@teldan.com" "Hilit Finkler" 14-JUL-2005 00:32:28.29 To: IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" "'Donald Broom'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: from handler to dog Please see attached article -----Original Message----- From: Donald Broom [mailto:dmb16@cam.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 10:23 AM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Cc: LyndhurstPark@aol.com Subject: from handler to dog Can anyone direct me towards research done on - the transferring of emotional states from handler to dog (yes I know, its highly controversial). Gordon Butcher Dear Gordon Here are a couple of papers from our group which concern the general issue. Jagoe, A. and Serpell, J. 1996. Owner characteristics and interactions and the prevalence of canine behaviour problems. Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci., 47, 31-42. Podberscek, A.L. and Serpell, J.A. 1997. Aggressive behaviour in English Cocker Spaniels and the personality of their owners. Vet. Rec., 141, 73-76. Don Broom From: IN%"sue@nestnature.com" "Sue Alexander" 14-JUL-2005 06:28:24.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Accountability & transparency in our profession Indeed I have no idea what the issue is here... but in a global society in which mealy-mouthed timidity in interaction seems to be the norm, Jacqueline's directness and persistence is quite refreshing. Sic 'em Jackie. As may be.....BUT 1) I joined this list to learn about ethology, not to hear about any individual's issues with any other individual or institution, personal brags or announcements of personal accomplishment. 2) In any submission process that I know of there is an appropriate body to appeal to-the editor, the president of the society in question or someone similar. 3) The ethology list is not able to actually address her issues-so this constitutes a whine and a rant. As a very small and relatively unschooled voice on this list, all I can say is that after a year here, I no longer take this person's rants very seriously and would want to see her in action before I sent a client to her. Ranting on a public and professional list is unprofessional, wastes time and energy and completely undermines the reputation of someone who might be a perfectly capable behaviourist. I would just want a lot more evidence than what she gives for herself. Back to the ethology please. Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC Dogs in the Park Guelph, Ontario From: IN%"LyndhurstPark@aol.com" 14-JUL-2005 06:55:25.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A Request I echo Sue Alexander's professional comments. This forum is for co-professionals to assist each other in the advancement of study and knowledge, not to publicly voice our personal grievances, even if the subject matter evolves around professional issues. Us members who are students would rather the learned Doctors enlighten us with their professional wisdom, than to be subjected to a ping-pong of their personal discord. Gordon Butcher Mature Student. From: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE" 14-JUL-2005 16:24:19.41 To: IN%"hilit@teldan.com" "Hilit Finkler", IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" "'Donald Broom'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: from handler to dog from handler to dogThe document seems to omit the characters "fi" when they are together and replace them with a dot and two spaces. Thank you for posting this -- Stephen ----- Please see attached article From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Greg & Jackie" 14-JUL-2005 21:50:04.58 To: IN%"sue@nestnature.com" "'Sue Alexander'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Accountability & transparency in our profession There is NO APPEALS PROCESS offered by the IVBM (at least none that was offered to me). In terms of accountability it is like the wild west.=20 It is hard to believe so I can understand why you have trouble believing = it. One day perhaps something like this will happen to you. These types of procedural problems lead directly to censoring of the ethology information which each of you get to see and hear about. It directly shapes the future direction of the profession. "I no longer take this person's rants very seriously and would want to = see her in action before I sent a client to her. Ranting on a public and professional list is unprofessional, wastes time and energy and = completely undermines the reputation of someone who might be a perfectly capable behaviourist." =20 Please cut out the personal attacks. I have nothing to prove, but plenty = of backbone when it comes to pushing for procedural reform. I do have friends on this list who were pleased, and wanted to know, of = my recent good news. As for the rest, is it too much to ask to calmly hit "delete"? Jackie -----Original Message----- From: Sue Alexander [mailto:sue@nestnature.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 10:28 PM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Accountability & transparency in our profession =A0 Indeed I have no idea what the issue is here... but in a global society in which mealy-mouthed timidity in interaction seems to be the norm, Jacqueline's directness and persistence is=20 quite refreshing. Sic 'em Jackie.=A0=20 =A0 As may be.....BUT =A0 1) I joined this list to learn about ethology, not to hear about any individual's issues with any other individual or institution, personal = brags or announcements of personal accomplishment. 2) In any submission process that I know of there is an appropriate body = to appeal to-the editor, the president of the society in question or = someone similar. 3) The ethology list is not able to actually address her issues-so this constitutes a whine and a rant.=20 =A0 As a very small and relatively unschooled voice on this list, all I can = say is that after a year here, I no longer take this person's rants very seriously and would want to see her in action before I sent a client to her.=A0 Ranting on a public and professional list is unprofessional, = wastes time and energy and completely undermines the reputation of someone who might be a perfectly capable behaviourist.=A0 I would just want a lot = more evidence than what she gives for herself. =A0 Back to the ethology please.=A0=20 =A0 Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC Dogs in the Park Guelph, Ontario =A0 =A0 From: IN%"datakoll@yahoo.com" "gene daniels" 15-JUL-2005 08:43:11.99 To: IN%"Kim.Dekkers@wur.nl" "Dekkers, Kim", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: movement tracking & analysis Are the systems applied to birds? Is a captive computer tech required to avoid becoming a computer tech? How effective is the mask tool? is this illegal? does it come with an indian? "Dekkers, Kim" wrote: hi Ray, I don't believe there are really any -significant- cheaper alternatives to the Ethovision system. It seems as if the alternatives have become more expensive over the years. Most of the alternatives work with add-ons which are actually always needed to perform normal tests with. So they seem like cheaper alternatives but in the end it more or less equals. However, Lolitrack really seems to be a lot cheaper (http://www.loligosystems.com), but try the program for yourself (you can download it from their website). It is way too limited in tracking and analysis options, and tracking didn't look that accurate either. Besides, you can easily track multiple animals simultaneously with the Ethovision system. And last but not least, compared to many other companies I had contact with in the past, the guys from noldus offered much better &faster service, so I cannot think of any other alternative when it comes to purchasing a video-tracking system. hope this helps, Kim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com