From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 1-JUL-1998 12:37:55.64 To: IN%"jln9532@omega.uta.edu" "Jamie Nettles" CC: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Heresy Message text written by Jamie Nettles >I agree with you that people sometimes get carried away with not anthropomorphizing.< Anthropomorphizing bothers me a lot less than it once did.* If you admit: The plausibility of "psychological adaptations" The plausibility of homologous structures or analogous ones The plausibility of our being able to "mind read" each other with SOME accuracy about social reactions, deceit, etc. The plausibility of our sharing adaptations with other living creatures The chance that the number of shared adaptations, particularly for nurturance, is a variable that influences whether we keep a particular critter for a pet. Then, you can probably "know" when a terrier, cat, or rat is "happy" to about the same degree that you can accurately judge those feelings for yourself (many of us have interesting "gaps" in self monitoring. Fun stuff! Jim Brody "Healing the Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution" *more extended discussion at www.behavior.net/mhn/bolforum/message/27, about 2/3rds down the page. From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 1-JUL-1998 12:45:26.49 To: IN%"jln9532@omega.uta.edu" "Jamie Nettles" CC: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Heresy Message text written by Jamie Nettles >The crucial difference is that we (I hope) have a model in our heads of the real world, that allows us to play what-if games and to predict what will happen.< "Naturally" we have models, wouldn't survive without them. I was fascinated by a note from Kelly Kissane that Salticid spiders leap not at their targets present location but at its future spot. A splendid= example of "planning"? Apparently not a unique feat for many creatures.= We do it verbally but the relevant ones, just as the relevant emotions, m= ay be nonverbal. I recall being a "subject" in a problem solving study in grad school. I worked 3 hours with very high accuracy beyond the point where I could explain my answer. I just "knew" what it was. = Jim Brody From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 1-JUL-1998 13:43:50.08 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Let sleeping dogs lie Reply to message from DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA of Mon, 29 Jun > >Dear Dr. Cameron: > Ah, but, because cats can cope with less, does this mean they >need less? There are a lot of behavioural problems with cats and I >suspect the lack of need fulfillment may be a major reason. Most >humane societies, for example, receive and euthanize thousands more >cats than dogs. A greater percentage of cats than dogs are hard to >place or are deemed unsatisfactory as a pet. > I would agree, though, that most people get a cat because they >think they can put less into the relationship than with a dog. Also, >for the same reason, people get "pocket pets" because they assume >that a cage and some food and water is all the animal needs. Many >animals do survive this. Survival is rather basic, however. > >Deb > > Agreed, 100%!!! I have an environmental-enhancement protocol that I include in my suggestions for many of my feline cases. I find this useful not only for the cat but also to get the owner to think in this new dimension and to be creative at stimulating the largely unused pet cat brain. The fact remains, however, that a cat can be ignored much more safely than a dog can, e.g., a cat can be left in a home, alone, for a weekend with food, water, and a litterbox and survive w/o significant problems. -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"overend99@hotmail.com" "overend watts" 1-JUL-1998 14:23:35.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: pacing dog HELLO Animal Behaviorists can anyone help me? i have a 12 year old male sheltie named Rex, that starts pacing the house about the time the family is preparing for bed and continues to pace all night long. he strolls from room to room and if we get him to lie down for a few minutes, he will suddenly bolt up on his feet and resume pacing. Rex only paces at random times as i cannot find a prognoses or any such reason for this behavior? he also has mild arthritis and is taking "rimadyl", but both our vet and myself ruled out being due to that. Rex has been pacing for 5-6 years now and i cannot for the life of me figure out why??? PLEASE HELP! Sincerely, Dean and Sir Rexford pace-a-lot @ overend99@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 1-JUL-1998 14:35:24.56 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Someone looking for help At the risk of putting my foot into it . . . again: Assuming that the dog has had a full medical work-up with no significant findings; and that by "aggressive" the writer means that the dog is, at worst, pawing, climbing-on, barking at, or mildly nipping, then: This is a perfect, and quite common, illustration of a dog with attention addiction (attention-seeking behavior). My guess is that the dog has been able to elicit some sort of attention (petting, wrestling, chasing, yelling, hitting, etc.) from these children rather easily in the past with less drastic input (from the dog). In those glorious times past, dog and children had a great time together, at least from the dog's perspective. Now the children have a new source of stimulation that outranks that which the dog has to offer. Thus they ignore the dog in favor of the new electronic device. Ignoring quite reliably elicits an escalation of the attention-seeking behavior which could easily be, and quite commonly is, perceived by the owners as a "new" incident of aggression, when it is really just a modification of the previous regular and reliable attention-seeking behavior. I refer to this as attention addiction because the intensity of the attention-seeking behavior in these very common cases is well beyond what is common and usual for unconditioned dogs (dogs who have not demanded and received escalating and excessive amounts of attention over a period of time), and the behavior has aspects of a patient with a "need" for a "fix" for this internal problem. It is not impossible that repeated endorphin release from past excessive attention giving(1) results in a true opioid dependency in these cases. Ref: Blass, E., Fitzgerald, E, & Kehoe, P, 1987. Interactions between sucrose, pain and isolation distress. Pharm. Biochem., 26: 483-489. Reply to message from heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk of Fri, 26 Jun > >I have been contacted by a colleague who is asking whether >there has been any research into the potential effects of vidoe >games and play stations on dogs in terms of behavioural changes >(e.g. such as the reported links between such these devices and >epilepsy in people) . She was asking after being contacted by a >dog owner who had bought a new play station for her children >and reported that her dog had become "aggressive" to the >children when they played on it. I do not have any more details >about the incident but could probably get some if people want >more information. >Thank you >------------------------------------- >Name: Sarah Heath BVSc MRCVS >Behavioural Referrals >11 Cotebrook Drive >Upton >Chester >Cheshire >CH2 1RA >England > >Phone +44 (0) 1244 377365 >Fax + 44 (0) 1244 399228 >E-mail: Sarah Heath >Date: 26/06/98 >Time: 13:57:25 > >This message was sent by Chameleon >------------------------------------- > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"ilyanna@siu.buap.mx" "RODRIGUEZ BERMAN ILYANNA" 1-JUL-1998 16:09:23.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Meeting CAN ANY BODY TELL ME, WHEN IS THE MEETING'S ZOO IN XCARET CANCUN, MEXICO? THE ORGANISATION IS FROM VETERINARIANS AND IS A GREAT MEETING, PLEASE I NEED THE DAYS AND THE EXACT PLACE, AND THE NEXT CONGRESS IN ETHOLOGY HERE IN MEXICO? THANKS Ilyanna Edith Ridriguez Berman Laboratorio de Ictiologia Centro de Investigaciones Biologicas Universidad Autonoma del estado de Morelos From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 2-JUL-1998 00:28:46.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group" CC: Subj: Behaviour of Cats The folloiwing is being circulated as humour - which to the experienced cat owner it certainly is. However, I felt it appropriate to x-post here not only for the light relief, but for what it says about human perception of cats' "behaviour". Best wishes Chris rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ Some people say cats never have to be bathed. They say cats lick themselves clean. They say cats have a special enzyme of some sort in their saliva that works like new, improved Wisk - dislodging the dirt where it hides and whisking it away. I've spent most of my life believing this folklore. Like most blind believers, I've been able to discount all the facts to the contrary, the kitty odors that lurk in the corners of the garage and dirt smudges that cling to the throw rug by the fireplace. The time comes, however, when a man must face reality: when he must look squarely in the face of massive public sentiment to the contrary and announce: "This cat smells like a port-a-potty on a hot day in Juarez." When that day arrives at your house, as it has in mine, I have some advice you might consider as you place your feline friend under your arm and head for the bathtub: -- Know that although the cat has the advantage of quickness and lack of concern for human life, you have the advantage of strength. Capitalize on that advantage by selecting the battlefield. Don't try to bathe him in an open area where he can force you to chase him. Pick a very small bathroom. If your bathroom is more than four feet square, I recommend that you get in the tub with the cat and close the sliding-glass doors as if you were about to take a shower. (A simple shower curtain will not do. A berserk cat can shred a three-ply rubber shower curtain quicker than a politician can shift positions.) -- Know that a cat has claws and will not hesitate to remove all the skin from your body. Your advantage here is that you are smart and know how to dress to protect yourself. I recommend canvas overalls tucked into high-top construction boots, a pair of steel-mesh gloves, an army helmet, a hockey face mask, and a long-sleeved flak jacket. -- Prepare everything in advance. There is no time to go out for a towel when you have a cat digging a hole in your flak jacket. Draw the water. Make sure the bottle of kitty shampoo is inside the glass enclosure. Make sure the towel can be reached, even if you are lying on your back in the water. -- Use the element of surprise. Pick up your cat nonchalantly, as if to simply carry him to his supper dish. (Cats will not usually notice your strange attire. They have little or no interest in fashion as a rule. If he does notice your garb, calmly explain that you are taking part in a product testing experiment for J.C. Penney.) -- Once you are inside the bathroom, speed is essential to survival. In a single liquid motion, shut the bathroom door, step into the tub enclosure, slide the glass door shut, dip the cat in the water and squirt him with shampoo. You have begun one of the wildest 45 seconds of your life. Cats have no handles. Add the fact that he now has soapy fur, and the problem is radically compounded. Do not expect to hold on to him for more than two or three seconds at a time. When you have him, however, you must remember to give him another squirt of shampoo and rub like crazy. He'll then spring free and fall back into the water, thereby rinsing himself off. (The national record for cats is three latherings, so don't expect too much.) -- Next, the cat must be dried. Novice cat bathers always assume this part will be the most difficult, for humans generally are worn out at this point and the cat is just getting really determined. In fact, the drying is simple compared to what you have just been through. That's because by now the cat is semipermanently affixed to your right leg. You simply pop the drain plug with you foot, reach for your towel and wait. (Occasionally, however, the cat will end up clinging to the top of your army helmet. If this happens, the best thing you can do is to shake him loose and to encourage him toward your leg.) After all the water is drained from the tub, it is a simple matter to just reach down and dry the cat. In a few days the cat will relax enough to be removed from your leg. He will usually have nothing to say for about three weeks and will spend a lot of time sitting with his back to you. He might even become psychoceramic and develop the fixed stare of a plaster figurine. You will be tempted to assume he is angry. This isn't usually the case. As a rule he is simply plotting ways to get through your defenses and injure you for life the next time you decide to give him a bath. But at least now he smells a lot better. From: IN%"pherosynthese@wanadoo.fr" 2-JUL-1998 00:45:25.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: stress in sheep Dear listmembers, Has anyone got an idea or references on the economical losses due to stress in sheep ? Yann Tessier DVM, France From: IN%"heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk" "Sarah Heath" 2-JUL-1998 02:47:11.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Someone Looking for Help To everyone who has replied to this mail - Thank you I will pass all your comments on to Erica Peachey who asked for the information and I hope she may send a response to everyone I agree with all of the comments made about withdrawal of attention, changes in the children's behaviour etc but when Erica first asked me about the case and I put forward these explanations Erica did not feel that they applied in this case. Apparently these children are very calm when playing with the play station!! Thank you once again From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 2-JUL-1998 07:10:59.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: cat bath behaviour Dear Chris: I know you meant your essay as a joke but there is some truth to it. Long ago, when I lived in San Diego, California, my cats had to be flea bathed at least 1x monthly (this is long before Program or any really effective flea meds). The best way to bathe them was to get in the tub with them (not the shower - it seemed to terrify them). I would get in and crouch down and hold one on my lap (the other was waiting - hiding - behind the toilet) and run the tap water and do the lather and rinse then towel off. Pick up cat #2, go through the routine and towel off. My presence in the tub seemed to ease some fears and terrors and, although I do not think they ever came to like it, they did come to accept the routine. (I would then have to shower to make sure I removed all the flea shampoo from me!). Deb From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 2-JUL-1998 08:08:17.98 To: IN%"'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: New book from CABI Publishing (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:12:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Tania Fisher (Product Mktg)" To: Joe Stookey Subject: New book from CABI Publishing Dear Joe We have recently published a new book which is likely to be of interest to the animal ethology network. Details of the book follow. Perhaps you would like to post the information on the network. Many thanks Tania Tania Fisher Product Manager Human Health and Animal Sciences CABI Publishing CAB International ______________________________________ NEW BOOK FROM CABI Publishing Human-Livestock Interactions: The Stockperson and the Productivity and Welfare of Intensively Farmed Animals Edited by P H Hemsworth, Animal Welfare Centre, Agriculture Victoria, Australia and G J Coleman, Animal Welfare Centre, Monash University, Victoria, Australia Contents: Preface Acknowledgements Introduction: the Stockperson as a Professional Skills, Knowledge and Status The Ethics of Animal Farming: Implications for the Stockperson Human Animal Interactions and Animal Productivity and Welfare Attitudes of Stockpeople Stockperson Behaviour and Animal Behaviour A Model of Stockperson Animal Interactions and their Implications for Animals Changing Stockperson Attitudes and Behaviour Conclusion: Current and Future Opportunities to Improve Human Animal Interactions References Index Written by leading research workers in this field, this book is essential reading for researchers in animal production, applied psychologists, ethologists, veterinary scientists and animal welfare professionals, and farm managers responsible for selecting and training staff. It is also a valuable source of material for lecturers and students of animal science, psychology and veterinary science. March 1998 176 pages HB ISBN 0 85199 195 5 ?30.00 (US$55.00) For ordering information please contact: CABI Publishing CAB International Wallingford OXON OX10 8DE Tel: +44 01491 832111 Fax: +44 01491 829292 Email: publishing@cabi.org or for enquiries from North and Central America: Oxford University Press 2001 Evans Road Cary North Carolina 27513 USA Tel: 1-800-451-7556 Fax: 919-677-1303 From: IN%"jamench@ucdavis.edu" "Joy A. Mench" 2-JUL-1998 10:44:59.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology'" CC: Subj: Postdoctoral position POSTDOCTORAL POSITION available 9/98 to conduct research on the behavior and welfare of domestic fowl. Experience in collection and statistical analysis of behavioral data essential. Interest in learning histopathological techniques highly desirable, as is a willingness and ability to supervise undergraduate research projects. This is a two-year applied study funded by USDA to assess the relationship between behavior and the development of skeletal problems in broiler chickens. Salary range $29,000-35,000 plus benefits, depending on experience. Send curriculum vita and names of three references to: Joy Mench, Department of Animal Science, University of California, One Shields Avenue, Davis, CA 95616. FAX: 530-752-0175, E-mail jamench@ucdavis.edu (please do not send attachments). The University of California, Davis, is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer. From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 2-JUL-1998 11:57:56.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Someone Looking for Help Reply to message from heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk of Thu, 02 Jul > >To everyone who has replied to this mail - Thank you >I will pass all your comments on to Erica Peachey who asked for >the information and I hope she may send a response to everyone >I agree with all of the comments made about withdrawal of >attention, changes in the children's behaviour etc but when >Erica first asked me about the case and I put forward these >explanations Erica did not feel that they applied in this case. >Apparently these children are very calm when playing with the >play station!! >Thank you once again > > The demeanor of the children has nothing to do with the dog's reaction. It is the ignoring that the dog reacts to. -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 2-JUL-1998 12:02:29.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: cat bath behaviour Another technique is to put a bath towel in the bottom of the tub for the cat to grasp, then run the water in through a hose directed under the towel. Then gently ease the cat into the tub and bath by hand lifting the water (and soap) over the cat. Works for us. Reply to message from DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA of Thu, 02 Jul > >Dear Chris: > I know you meant your essay as a joke but there is some truth to >it. Long ago, when I lived in San Diego, California, my cats had to >be flea bathed at least 1x monthly (this is long before Program or >any really effective flea meds). > The best way to bathe them was to get in the tub with them (not >the shower - it seemed to terrify them). I would get in and crouch >down and hold one on my lap (the other was waiting - hiding - behind >the toilet) and run the tap water and do the lather and rinse then >towel off. Pick up cat #2, go through the routine and towel off. My >presence in the tub seemed to ease some fears and terrors and, >although I do not think they ever came to like it, they did come to >accept the routine. > (I would then have to shower to make sure I removed all the flea >shampoo from me!). > >Deb > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jonathan Bowen" 2-JUL-1998 12:33:27.43 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Someone Looking for Help This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_pGv1P039eLgMsQy9mKe1gQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Today D.B.Cameron replied to the following email: >>To everyone who has replied to this mail - Thank you >>I will pass all your comments on to Erica Peachey who asked for=20 >>the information and I hope she may send a response to everyone >>I agree with all of the comments made about withdrawal of=20 >>attention, changes in the children's behaviour etc but when=20 >>Erica first asked me about the case and I put forward these=20 >>explanations Erica did not feel that they applied in this case.=20 >>Apparently these children are very calm when playing with the=20 >>play station!! >>Thank you once again with this statement...... > The demeanor of the children has nothing to do with the dog's >reaction. It is the ignoring that the dog reacts to. I don't want to be rude but isn't this reply a teensy bit simplistic? Learning theory explains a lot of things, but not everything; and I = personally would not want to make such a sweeping statement without a = bit more information than that which was in the original posting. Jon --Boundary_(ID_pGv1P039eLgMsQy9mKe1gQ) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Today = D.B.Cameron replied to=20 the following email:

 
>>To everyone who has replied to this mail - Thank = you
>>I=20 will pass all your comments on to Erica Peachey who asked for =
>>the=20 information and I hope she may send a response to everyone
>>I = agree=20 with all of the comments made about withdrawal of
>>attention, = changes=20 in the children's behaviour etc but when
>>Erica first asked = me about=20 the case and I put forward these
>>explanations Erica did not = feel=20 that they applied in this case.
>>Apparently these children = are very=20 calm when playing with the
>>play station!!
>>Thank = you once=20 again 
 
with this=20 statement......

>     The demeanor of the children has = nothing=20 to do with the dog's
>reaction. It is the ignoring that the dog = reacts=20 to. 

 
I don't want to = be rude but=20 isn't this reply a teensy bit simplistic?
Learning theory explains a lot = of things,=20 but not everything; and I personally would not want to = make=20 such a sweeping statement without a bit more information than that which = was in=20 the original posting.
 
 
Jon
 
--Boundary_(ID_pGv1P039eLgMsQy9mKe1gQ)-- From: IN%"overend99@hotmail.com" "overend watts" 2-JUL-1998 13:00:55.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: pacing dog-update HELLO AGAIN, MY ANIMAL BEHAVIORISTS FRIENDS! thanks so much for all your responses and help in rex's odd behavior. here are some answers and more details in his pacing; the rimadyl was begun aug of '97, due to rex showing difficulty in standing from a sitting position and not being able to hop in the car or on the bed. since the rimadyl, he is 98% better! rex has paced since approximately 6 years of age, so i doubt it is age related, he is very attached to me, over the rest of the family and is always by my side wherever i go, when im at home. he is very healthy for 12 years and has excellent teeth. the quarkiest and most disturbing aspect of his pacing behavior is when his does settle down and actually lies down, within a minute he will bolt to his feet very, very quickly, as if a gunshot went off and startled him! from there, he resumes pacing. rex also seems to be in his own world, he won't stop to be petted OR to eat a treat. he does momentarily stop to "paw" at the carpet, not the tile floor, only the carpet area. this pacing only occurs once or twice, every 3-4 months and @ around 9:30-10:00pm. the family has done different routines each time, we can go to bed, stay up later, go to a movie, it doesn't matter, at 9-10pm rex will begin his pacing. i have ALWAYS been concerned about his pacing behavior, your help is just another attempt to find out what exactly is the cause! but being, no one on the web can actually see rex in person makes it more difficult to prognose. i thank you all again and hope we can help rex! i would like more info on selegiline/L-deprenyl and cognitive dysfunction (Dr. Mertens). sincerely dean and rexarama ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 2-JUL-1998 14:08:37.91 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dog training and food deprivation. I would like some help from those of you more eddykated than myself. I am involved in a debate with a large number of dog trainers concerning food training. Many of these people are advocates of operant conditioning and positive reinforcement and use food extensively for their training methods. A large number of these folks believe that if the dog is not responding to the training treats, you starve the dog. The philosophy being that after two or three days, the dog will definitely be interested in the training treats. I was appalled at that mentality. It is my experience that a normal, healthy dog who is at a normal stress level will always respond to food. If the dog has no interest in training treats, then he is either ill, in pain, or too stressed to learn. Depriving him of his dinner is not a logical solution for any of these conditions. Quite the contrary, it would seem to me that knowing his dinner will come at the same time each day, regardless of whether or not he will eat it, would help his stress level. Can anyone supply information or sources that support my contentions, or, conversely, convince me that I am all wet? Thanks, Kathy Hughes From: IN%"hpeet@worldonline.nl" "Herman Peet" 2-JUL-1998 15:23:50.13 To: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" "'Kattykorn2@aol.com'" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca'" Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. Hi Kathy, You wrote: > I was appalled at that mentality. It is my experience that a normal,=20 > healthy > dog who is at a normal stress level will always respond to food. If = the=20 > dog > has no interest in training treats, then he is either ill, in pain, or = too > stressed to learn. I too am an advocate of operant conditioning, I use clickertraining = almost exclusively. In reward-based training I always start to find out what that particular = dog finds a reward. For the majority of dogs titbits of food are OK, = some dogs however could not care less. Often these dogs can be motivated = by a squeeky toy or play with a tennisball. If nothing at all seems to = motivate the dog AND the dog is healthy, starvation (for no longer than = 2 days) may be considered. After these 2 days I let the dog "earn its' = living" by using portions of it daily food ration as a reward during = training sessions. So, starvation for me is by no means the first choice = if a dog does not respond to food treats, it is just the last in a = series of options. In order to show the amount of "creativity" one sometimes has to apply, = I recall an English Bulldog who could not be motivated with his normal = dog food, but slices of tangerine or strawberies worked fine. I doubt if = starvation would have worked here, given the temper of this particular = dog. Hope this helps, Met vriendelijke groet / With best regards, Herman Peet "Kwispel" dog training and behaviour counselling Hoofddorp, The Netherlands e-mail: hpeet@worldonline.nl www: http://home.worldonline.nl/~hpeet/english.html From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 2-JUL-1998 17:37:37.71 To: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" "INTERNET:Kattykorn2@aol.com" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "[unknown]" Subj: Dog training and food deprivation. Message text written by INTERNET:Kattykorn2@aol.com >Can anyone supply information or sources that support my contentions, or= , conversely, convince me that I am all wet?< We may have the same problem with the dog that we have with our children.= Fed, happy children learn naturally but most easily about events, skills = in domains wherein they have some talent. We vary in our psych adaptations= and will vary in the zeal that we bring to different topics. At that poin= t, we restrict TV, playstations, phone access until the grades are up ... sometimes to eliminate competing activities and sometimes to get a little= extra "push" to do the rote memorization for a new topic such as chemistr= y. It would surprise me if dogs were less variable than people. Jim Brody From: IN%"steppe@ou.edu" "Steppe" 3-JUL-1998 00:34:22.42 To: IN%"overend99@hotmail.com" "overend watts", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "animal behavior" CC: Subj: RE: pacing dog-update Hi, This is just a shot in the dark, but have you had him checked for seizures? I ask because of your description of his startle response. Also, I know with horses that pacing can become an addictive behavior, and some theories say that the horse gets a "high" from the endorphins released by the repetetive behavior. Let me know if this helps! ---steppe From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "appleby" 3-JUL-1998 00:56:28.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Someone Looking for Help In article <199807021757.NAA10674@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu>, D.B. Cameron writes >Reply to message from heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk of Thu, 02 Jul >> >>To everyone who has replied to this mail - Thank you >>I will pass all your comments on to Erica Peachey who asked for >>the information and I hope she may send a response to everyone >>I agree with all of the comments made about withdrawal of >>attention, changes in the children's behaviour etc but when >>Erica first asked me about the case and I put forward these >>explanations Erica did not feel that they applied in this case. >>Apparently these children are very calm when playing with the >>play station!! >>Thank you once again >> >> > The demeanor of the children has nothing to do with the dog's >reaction. It is the ignoring that the dog reacts to. > > Should this not read - The demeanor of the children may have nothing to do with the dog's reaction. It may be the ignoring that the dog reacts to. Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 3-JUL-1998 03:35:51.11 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. From: Glynne Anderson To: Kattykorn2@aol.com Subject: Re: Dog training and food deprivation. Date: Friday, July 03, 1998 11:02 AM Hi Kathy I am also uneddykated but perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents for what they are worth ... maybe just a different view on which to ponder. Firstly you must understand every one on this planet is an expert on dogs ... even the post man. Get it? Now, on the subject of food training: I believe a good handler is able to motivate the dog without having to depend on food or gimmicks. However, normally only experienced or gifted handlers can sucessfully achieve this. (Of course there are exceptions to every rule.) I believe food can be a good training aid poviding it is used correctly. It should be given as a reward to reinforce the required behaviour but unfortunately it is seldom used sucessfully. I have seen handlers dangling it in front of the dog's nose like a carrot which is really a waste of time. The trick is to condition the dog using food and then withdraw it as soon as possible. Yes, I have heard of starving the dog inorder for it to be food motivated. It does work but again I believe the handler is inexperienced and should rather motivate the dog to enjoy the training. A dog having fun will always respond better than one looking for food. As far as stress levels and food are concerned I have found not all dogs are food orientated. A lot depends on their daily feeding regimen and what the treat is. I doubt if a well fed dog will break a gut for kibble! Lastly, there is also the ego the handler which must also be taken into consideration. Some will stop at nothing inorder to succeed. I have seen far, far worse than you describe! Best regards Glynne > > I would like some help from those of you more eddykated than myself. > > > > I am involved in a debate with a large number of dog trainers concerning > food > > training. Many of these people are advocates of operant conditioning and > > positive reinforcement and use food extensively for their training > methods. A > > large number of these folks believe that if the dog is not responding to > the > > training treats, you starve the dog. The philosophy being that after two > or > > three days, the dog will definitely be interested in the training treats. > > > > I was appalled at that mentality. It is my experience that a normal, > healthy > > dog who is at a normal stress level will always respond to food. If the > dog > > has no interest in training treats, then he is either ill, in pain, or > too > > stressed to learn. Depriving him of his dinner is not a logical solution > for > > any of these conditions. Quite the contrary, it would seem to me that > knowing > > his dinner will come at the same time each day, regardless of whether or > not > > he will eat it, would help his stress level. > > > > Can anyone supply information or sources that support my contentions, or, > > conversely, convince me that I am all wet? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kathy Hughes From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jonathan Bowen" 3-JUL-1998 06:05:26.19 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. I completely agree with what Herman Peet says, but to elaborate a bit.... When trying to train a dog to do something it always pays to know what the dog 'wants' as a reward. Investigate the dog's level of motivation from: Food Contact/praise Play Then experiment to find what aspects of this are the most rewarding: is it a particular food, type of praise, toy that the dog finds rewarding. Set up a scale of rewards so that you know what your best rewards are, and keep some in reserve for difficult situations when you need a really good motivator. Always remember to deliver reward quickly (0.5-2 seconds as a target) so that you maximise learning. Start by rewarding 100% of successful responses, and once the response is absolute you can gradually vary the type and frequency of reward. The dog should always get some sort of reward, even if it is largely symbolic like being told 'good dog' in a nice voice. If you are trying to counter condition a response that is in contradiction to one that the dog finds highly rewarding (e.g. coming and sitting down instead of running around the park with other dogs and not coming back when called), then you may find that none of your rewards are powerful enough to stop the behaviour once it is in progress. It is best not to use all of your best rewards to start with; this is a bit like playing poker with all of you cards face up. It gives your game away, and lets the dog know right at the start that the rewards you have to offer may be not worth having. At this point I can see no harm in increasing motivation by deprivation. This could mean withdrawing toys, not petting/praising or feeding the dog for a while in order to increase the significance of the reward. At the same time try to use reward to reinforce the behaviour you do want before the dog has engaged fully in the behaviour you don't want (be perceptive to what the dog is going to do, and intercept with a command before the dog has committed itself to an act). Several days starvation seems a bit over the top, most dogs that respond to a food reward will be motivated well enough by missing out a single meal. If this is not the case then perhaps you need to go back to re-examining what the dog finds rewarding. I am not sure what types of training situation the original posting was referring to, but it seems to me that if it is necessary to use several days of starvation to motivate a dog to sit for a food treat then something is badly wrong! Depending upon starvation to increase the reward value of a particular food treat that the animal is not keen on rather than actually looking at what the dog finds rewarding appears lazy to me. As Herman Peet said, the food rewards that dogs work hardest for can turn out to be quite odd things....orange segments always strike me as an odd treat for a dog, but plenty of them really like oranges. Some dogs I have known have been best rewarded with praise and contact (which is free) and take not the slightest interest in food treats no matter how hungry we might think they are. It also pays to know what a dog's main motivating rewards are because otherwise you may be unintentionally giving away your best rewards for nothing, or even worse rewarding the behaviours that you specifically don't want to encourage. Training dogs (and owners) should focus on the uniqueness of the relationship, and improve the owners understanding of theie animal's needs and 'wants', not follow dogma. Finally, I am always a bit bothered by the contingent that assume that there is something special about certain trainers. That they are capable of training animals without the need for treats. This is nonsense, these people are using subtle forms of reward that are just going unnoticed. Anyone can train a dog if they follow the rules from associative learning. Some people may have grasped these implicitly and call themselves animal trainers, but the knowledge is available to anyone. It is much better that people understand their own dogs properly, and don't become dependent on 'magical' or 'charismatic' trainers. Jon From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 3-JUL-1998 06:28:54.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Someone Looking for Help Dr. Cameron said: > > The demeanor of the children has nothing to do with the dog's > >reaction. It is the ignoring that the dog reacts to. Dr. David Appleby said: > Should this not read - The demeanor of the children may have nothing to > do with the dog's reaction. It may be the ignoring that the dog reacts > to. Should it not read: "In my opinion (probably based on client experience), the demeanor of the children has nothing to do with the dog's reaction. It is the ignoring that the dog reacts to". Deb says: In my opinion, any conclusions, methodologies or techniques that "work" in a behavioural problem may or may be not exclusive to the situation, the problem and the people involved. A simplistic example (for simplistic reasoning), the solution (a solution) for a handling problem with a dog must not only be effective (I understand this) for the dog it must be effective (I understand and can use this and am comfortable using this) for the handler as well. We all bring unique insights, capabilities, experience, (dare I say intuition?) and unique personality traits into the behavioural problem solving situation. The behavioural problem solving situation also involves an array of unique qualities in the other humans involved as well as the nonhuman species. Everyone can probably speak certainly as well as hedgingly about most (or any) problem posted here. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"joseph.garner@New.oxford.ac.uk" "Joseph Garner" 3-JUL-1998 07:41:11.48 To: IN%"overend99@hotmail.com" "overend watts" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: pacing dog-update Dear dEan, Best explain my background: I work on abnormal repttive behaviours in animals. Now, as for rex... I didn't pick up from your e-mail that the problem was so intermittent. If the problem occurs every once or twice every 4 months, I would be VERY cautious about diagnosing the problem as stereotypy or OCD. Combined with the fact that the behaviour is so accurately timed, and the "bolting" that you describe, I would be immediately suspicious of an environmental event that humans cannot hear or perceive. There are some good examples of dogs with apparent pacing stereotypies, that were following ultrasonic noises around the house. The best example I can think of, was a dog that ran a very complicated route over two floors of the house following the sound of an air bubbles in the cold water plumbing, that were released whenever the downstairs toilet flushed! The route was repetitive, invariant, and apparently functionless, but that merely refelcted the unvarying route of the air bubble through the plumbing, and the reptitive use of the toilet by the other members of the family! I've said this before, but I'll get on my soap box again: the fact that a behaviour responds to a drug should not be a basis for diagnosing the behaviour. In Rex's case, I would be extremely cautious of giving him a dopaminergic antagonist, or a SSRI, if the behaviour only occurs once or twice every 4 months. Firstly, I would worry about keeping an animal on long term medication to prevent such an intermittent problem, and secondly, both these classes of drugs affect the propensity of animals to intiate ALL behaviour, so even if they were efficaious in REx's case, it might merely be because they were suppressing ALL behaviour, rather than targeting any specific physiological cause of the problem. In terms of active advice, why don't you try ruling out any environmental stimuli first. You can get ultrasonic detectors (often sold as "bat detectors" in the UK). You might like to try and borrow / buy one and see if he is following an ultrasonic source. Perhaps there's something very interesting to a dog moving around the house... for instance animals under the house. Does his pacing always occur at the same time of year? etc. etc. Hope that helps cheers JOe At 12:00 02/07/98 -0700, you wrote: >HELLO AGAIN, MY ANIMAL BEHAVIORISTS FRIENDS! > >thanks so much for all your responses and help in rex's >odd behavior. here are some answers and more details in >his pacing; the rimadyl was begun aug of '97, due to rex >showing difficulty in standing from a sitting position and >not being able to hop in the car or on the bed. since the >rimadyl, he is 98% better! rex has paced since approximately >6 years of age, so i doubt it is age related, he is very >attached to me, over the rest of the family and is always >by my side wherever i go, when im at home. he is very healthy >for 12 years and has excellent teeth. the quarkiest and most >disturbing aspect of his pacing behavior is when his does >settle down and actually lies down, within a minute he will >bolt to his feet very, very quickly, as if a gunshot went off >and startled him! from there, he resumes pacing. rex also seems >to be in his own world, he won't stop to be petted OR to eat a treat. >he does momentarily stop to "paw" at the carpet, not the tile floor, >only the carpet area. this pacing only occurs once or twice, every >3-4 months and @ around 9:30-10:00pm. the family has done different >routines each time, we can go to bed, stay up later, go to a movie, >it doesn't matter, at 9-10pm rex will begin his pacing. >i have ALWAYS been concerned about his pacing behavior, your help >is just another attempt to find out what exactly is the cause! >but being, no one on the web can actually see rex in person makes >it more difficult to prognose. i thank you all again and hope we >can help rex! i would like more info on selegiline/L-deprenyl >and cognitive dysfunction (Dr. Mertens). > sincerely > dean and rexarama > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > --------------------------------- Joseph Garner, Animal Behaviour Research Group, Zoology Dept. Oxford University, South Parks Road, OX1 3PS Tel: (0)1865 271214 Page: 01523 169589 Fax: (0)1865 310447 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 3-JUL-1998 09:02:50.72 To: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" "'Kattykorn2@aol.com'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. There is a well established co-relation between fear and fasting. Homer mentions the need to breakfast the troops, before battle, in the Iliad. Experimental work with rats shows a dramatically augmented startle reflex to revolver shots when the fasted individual hears the sound in a context where it is anxious (e.g. previously shocked there). Drastic dieters get edgy or jittery etc etc. Jeffrey Gray (The psychology of fear and stress 2nd ed. 1987 p185. The experiment is attributed to 'Meryman' and cited from Brown, Kalish and Farber (1951) J. Exp. Psychol. 41 317-28. Fig. 10.4. has this text. Results of an experiment by Meryman, showing the startle response as a function of fear, no fear, intense hunger, weak hunger, and their combination. Startle responses to a pistol-shot were tested in four groups, two of the groups being rendered fearful by being given an electric shock in the test situation once a day. Both fear and hunger potentiate the startle response, and their effects summate. The 'eve' of battle is surely a test situation in associated with fear ! So being fasted cannot be a good idea. Neither can firing revolvers after fleeing soldiers be considered a means of reducing their fear ! It seems to me that if a dog is apprehensive of the training context (and it is likely to be so rendered by impatience on the part of the the handler) FASTING may be quite counter-productive. I would especially call to mind the work of Scott, Fuller and Murphree in breeding 'nervous Pointer puppies'. It is the timid, bradycardic non-responsive to petting, puppy on my consulting table that will regularly ignore offered tit-bits. Herman Peet says:- "In reward-based training I always start to find out what that particular dog finds a reward" So Kathy Hughes is indeed 'wet' and on the 'wet wing of the Behaviour Movement' Hurrah! Shake yourself with pride! All over the Dries! Strategically Damp (but a tactical 'arse-booter' on very rare occasions) Robin -----Original Message----- From: Kattykorn2@aol.com [SMTP:Kattykorn2@aol.com] Sent: 02 July 1998 21:08 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Dog training and food deprivation. I would like some help from those of you more eddykated than myself. I am involved in a debate with a large number of dog trainers concerning food training. Many of these people are advocates of operant conditioning and positive reinforcement and use food extensively for their training methods. A large number of these folks believe that if the dog is not responding to the training treats, you starve the dog. The philosophy being that after two or three days, the dog will definitely be interested in the training treats. I was appalled at that mentality. It is my experience that a normal, healthy dog who is at a normal stress level will always respond to food. If the dog has no interest in training treats, then he is either ill, in pain, or too stressed to learn. Depriving him of his dinner is not a logical solution for any of these conditions. Quite the contrary, it would seem to me that knowing his dinner will come at the same time each day, regardless of whether or not he will eat it, would help his stress level. Can anyone supply information or sources that support my contentions, or, conversely, convince me that I am all wet? Thanks, Kathy Hughes From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 3-JUL-1998 09:48:42.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Simple: Naive: Simplistic Now look here! Call me a pedantic text pecker if you like! Simple means 'onefold, not complicated'. Naive means artless, unaffected, ingenuous, simple. Ingenuous means open, candid, frank, sincere. Simplistic means Affecting simplicity. Simplism means the Affectation of simplicity. Affectation means the pretence of or faking. Simplistic is being used where 'over simplified' or 'too simple' is the intended insult. (Ray Stricklin is a text pecker! He is right about Adaptive. His stiff communication has tightened up my loose usage.) From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jonathan Bowen" 3-JUL-1998 10:36:42.67 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Simple: Naive: Simplistic This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_SXlRgnh06N0/D8a3VXYyLw) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Longman dictionary: simplistic /sim'plistik/ adj. deliberately or affectedly uncomplicated; = naive - simplistically adv=20 note This word, first recorded in the late 19th century, properly has = the derogatory meaning "affectedly, excessively, or misleadingly = simple". The occasional use of too simplistic , oversimplistic , or = phrases such as "a reasonable simplistic assumption" suggests, however, = that it is sometimes taken to mean "simplified" or merely "simple".=20 Chambers: simplistic adj. tending to oversimplify, making no allowances for = problems and complexities. That pretty much covers what I meant by simplistic. 'deliberately or affectedly uncomplicated' is my chosen meaning, since = it implies that the author does know (or might reasonably be expected to = know) more than is included in the statement but is ignoring complexity = for some purpose. In this way the word ceases to be an insult....or maybe not! Jon --Boundary_(ID_SXlRgnh06N0/D8a3VXYyLw) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Longman dictionary:
simplistic /sim'plistik/ adj. = deliberately or=20 affectedly uncomplicated; naive - simplistically adv
note This word, = first=20 recorded in the late 19th century, properly has the derogatory meaning=20 "affectedly, excessively, or misleadingly simple". The = occasional use=20 of too simplistic , oversimplistic , or phrases such as "a = reasonable=20 simplistic assumption" suggests, however, that it is sometimes = taken to=20 mean "simplified" or merely "simple".=20
 
Chambers: 
simplistic adj. tending to = oversimplify, making=20 no allowances for problems and complexities.
 
That pretty much covers what I meant = by=20 simplistic.
'deliberately or affectedly uncomplicated' is my = chosen=20 meaning, since it implies that the author does know (or might reasonably = be=20 expected to know) more than is included in the statement but is ignoring = complexity for some purpose.
In this way the word ceases to be an insult....or = maybe=20 not! 
 
Jon
--Boundary_(ID_SXlRgnh06N0/D8a3VXYyLw)-- From: IN%"Iain_Christison@fc.usask.ca" 3-JUL-1998 11:05:53.50 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fwd: Re: Simple: Naive: Simplistic My dictionary defines simplistic as characterized by extreme simplification; oversimplified. Perhaps there is a continental difference in the meaning. Just as for the passengers on the aircraft awaiting departure who were told that their plane would take off momentarily. The North Americans were pleased and the Europeans were horrified. Iain Christison University of Saskatchewan. From: IN%"steven@texas.net" "Steven Nicely" 4-JUL-1998 10:22:38.97 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Animal behavior" CC: Subj: Food reward and dog training This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_eMlciPR0gmp4I1beI+1tGQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I am not an animal behaviors, but I do train dog professionally, and I = am a student of psychology. In ,detector dog, training food is not my choice as primary = reinforcement. I prefer something that stimulates the dog's prey drives = such as a ball, kong, or tug. I just returned from Holland and evaluated over sixty dogs, bought 33. = Only one dog was identified as having sufficient drive for food that = would likely allow training without food depravation.=20 Concerning healthy dogs always taking food I must say it depends on the = food offered. Several of the dogs I tested on this buy trip rejected = food, but would chase and play with toys and exhibited no outwards signs = of stress. So I cannot readily accept dogs that do not accept food are = in some fashion ill, but of course my experience has also told me some = dogs reject food when they expect a reinforcer they place higher in = value, such as a ball. Some of these dogs in different situations will = then take food.=20 Food depravation I feel is not the answer. Sure I can train a dog to = perform a task using food as the reinforcement, but if the dog must be = trained as a result of food depravation it often acts like dogs that = were trained as a result of force training. Not enjoying the task (human = term), but doing it because it must in order to eat. My experience in = detection tells me this does not work.=20 As for the dog I selected for food reward in detector training, this is = a rare one that enjoys hunting and eating. It will work. Normally, I = reserve food for obedience, and as a variable reinforcer during = detection. I have seen over and over in field conditions detector dog improperly = selected and trained food reward dogs fail to work. Food depravation I = feel only works as long as the dog feels deprived of food.=20 Steve Nicely =20 --Boundary_(ID_eMlciPR0gmp4I1beI+1tGQ) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
I am not an animal behaviors, but I = do train dog=20 professionally, and I am a student of psychology.
 
In ,detector dog, training food is = not my choice=20 as primary reinforcement. I prefer something that stimulates the dog's = prey=20 drives such as a ball, kong, or tug.
 
I just returned from Holland and = evaluated over=20 sixty dogs, bought 33. Only one dog was identified as having sufficient = drive=20 for food that would likely allow training without food=20 depravation. 
 
Concerning healthy dogs always = taking food I=20 must say it depends on the food offered. Several of the dogs I tested on = this=20 buy trip rejected food, but would chase and play with toys and exhibited = no=20 outwards signs of stress. So I cannot readily accept dogs that do not = accept=20 food are in some fashion ill, but of course my experience has also told = me some=20 dogs reject food when they expect a reinforcer they place higher in = value, such=20 as a ball. Some of these dogs in different situations will then take = food.=20
 
Food depravation I feel is not the = answer. Sure=20 I can train a dog to perform a task using food as the reinforcement, but = if the=20 dog must be trained as a result of food depravation it often acts like = dogs that=20 were trained as a result of force training. Not enjoying the task (human = term),=20 but doing it because it must in order to eat. My experience in detection = tells=20 me this does not work.
 
As for the dog I selected for food reward in = detector=20 training, this is a rare one that enjoys hunting and eating. It will = work.=20 Normally, I reserve food for obedience, and as a variable reinforcer = during=20 detection.
 
I have seen over and over in field = conditions=20 detector dog improperly selected and trained food reward dogs fail to = work. Food=20 depravation I feel only works as long as the dog feels deprived of food. =
 
Steve Nicely
 
 
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_eMlciPR0gmp4I1beI+1tGQ)-- From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 4-JUL-1998 13:38:49.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Someone Looking for Help Yes! Of course it is simplistic. In case you had not noticed, This is not the real world. We get questions on this forum that include VERY imcomplete data. And even if we did get very complete written data, if we were to make a serious diagnosis that we (or at least I) would be willing to hang our professional reputations on, we would require that the the questioner and the subject appear before us in 3D and spend 3 hours +- in consultation AFTER they had filled out and submitted 6 pages of forms for me to analize before they ever darkened my door. Therefore, in my opinion: If we are to make this forum useful, interesting, and helpful for and to all concerned, I suggest that writers be allowed some virtual lattitude to make virtual comments that are likely to be virtually useful to the questioner and perhaps of some interest to lurkers and participants. Reply to message from rondog@btinternet.com of Thu, 02 Jul > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >--Boundary_(ID_pGv1P039eLgMsQy9mKe1gQ) >Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > >Today D.B.Cameron replied to the following email: > > >>>To everyone who has replied to this mail - Thank you >>>I will pass all your comments on to Erica Peachey who asked for=20 >>>the information and I hope she may send a response to everyone >>>I agree with all of the comments made about withdrawal of=20 >>>attention, changes in the children's behaviour etc but when=20 >>>Erica first asked me about the case and I put forward these=20 >>>explanations Erica did not feel that they applied in this case.=20 >>>Apparently these children are very calm when playing with the=20 >>>play station!! >>>Thank you once again > >with this statement...... > >> The demeanor of the children has nothing to do with the dog's >>reaction. It is the ignoring that the dog reacts to. > > >I don't want to be rude but isn't this reply a teensy bit simplistic? >Learning theory explains a lot of things, but not everything; and I = >personally would not want to make such a sweeping statement without a = >bit more information than that which was in the original posting. > > >Jon > > >--Boundary_(ID_pGv1P039eLgMsQy9mKe1gQ) >Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > >
Today = >D.B.Cameron replied to=20 >the following email:
>

 
>
>>To everyone who has replied to this mail - Thank = >you
>>I=20 >will pass all your comments on to Erica Peachey who asked for = >
>>the=20 >information and I hope she may send a response to everyone
>>I = >agree=20 >with all of the comments made about withdrawal of
>>attention, = >changes=20 >in the children's behaviour etc but when
>>Erica first asked = >me about=20 >the case and I put forward these
>>explanations Erica did not = >feel=20 >that they applied in this case.
>>Apparently these children = >are very=20 >calm when playing with the
>>play station!!
>>Thank = >you once=20 >again 
>
 
>
with this=20 >statement......
>

>     The demeanor of the children has = >nothing=20 >to do with the dog's
>reaction. It is the ignoring that the dog = >reacts=20 >to. 
>

 
>
I don't want to = >be rude but=20 >isn't this reply a teensy bit simplistic?
>
size=3D3>Learning theory explains a lot = >of things,=20 >but not everything; and I personally would not want to = >make=20 >such a sweeping statement without a bit more information than that which = >was in=20 >the original posting.
>
 
>
 
>
Jon
>
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> >--Boundary_(ID_pGv1P039eLgMsQy9mKe1gQ)-- > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"Clair40515@aol.com" 4-JUL-1998 13:53:55.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ??????? What are the school requirements for ethology? is there a field of science where i can study only about tigers and other big cats? From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 4-JUL-1998 14:22:53.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Someone Looking for Help Reply to message from appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk of Fri, 03 Jul > >In article <199807021757.NAA10674@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu>, D.B. Cameron > writes >>Reply to message from heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk of Thu, 02 Jul >>> >>>To everyone who has replied to this mail - Thank you >>>I will pass all your comments on to Erica Peachey who asked for >>>the information and I hope she may send a response to everyone >>>I agree with all of the comments made about withdrawal of >>>attention, changes in the children's behaviour etc but when >>>Erica first asked me about the case and I put forward these >>>explanations Erica did not feel that they applied in this case. >>>Apparently these children are very calm when playing with the >>>play station!! >>>Thank you once again >>> >>> >> The demeanor of the children has nothing to do with the dog's >>reaction. It is the ignoring that the dog reacts to. >> >> > >Should this not read - The demeanor of the children may have nothing to >do with the dog's reaction. It may be the ignoring that the dog reacts >to. > > >Best wishes. > > David Close, but no cigar. I agree, technically, with your gently put (thank you) suggestion. But (and please do not forget the qualifying assumptions I made in my first post): 1) I prefer: The demeanor of the children almost certainly has nothing to do with the dog's reaction. It is highly likely that the ignoring is what the dog is reacting to. 2) I have analized why I repeatedly put my foot in it, and I believe I have the answer: - I am a field therapist. I deal almost exclusively with very behaviorally unsophisticated pet owners who are having serious problems, i.e., most of my patients have a terminal disease and are rather near the receiving end of the big blue needle. In that situation if I waffle around with all the technically and academically necessary qualifications and disclaimers, I lose my credibility and we end up with a dead pet. I am well aware that academia and academics are vital to the knowledge search process. I admire and need you. THANKS VERY MUCH!!! ALSO, the other side of the equation is that YOU NEED ME!!! (collective "me"). You need me to provide you with problems to examine and you need me to verify your solutions. You need me to provide perspective to balance your academic machinations. The net is that, if we are to get the best results in these areas that we both care very much about, we need to recognize that we need each other, and work together to feed on (support) each other. -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 4-JUL-1998 14:30:14.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. WHAT A GREAT ANSWER!!! Thank you very much! Though he/she does not know it specifically, a pet owner does not want the dog to learn to work for a piece of cheese. He/she wants the dog to work for them. And there is absolutely no practical reason why this should not happen. Reply to message from k9acad@iafrica.com of Fri, 03 Jul > > > >---------- > From: Glynne Anderson > To: Kattykorn2@aol.com > Subject: Re: Dog training and food deprivation. > Date: Friday, July 03, 1998 11:02 AM > > Hi Kathy > I am also uneddykated but perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents for what they > are worth ... maybe just a different view on which to ponder. Firstly > you must understand every one on this planet is an expert on dogs ... >even > the post man. Get it? > > Now, on the subject of food training: I believe a good handler is able to > motivate the dog without having to depend on food or gimmicks. However, > normally only experienced or gifted handlers can sucessfully achieve this. > (Of course there are exceptions to every rule.) > I believe food can be a good training aid poviding it is used correctly. > > It should be given as a reward to reinforce the required behaviour but > unfortunately it is seldom used sucessfully. I have seen handlers > dangling it in front of the dog's > nose like a carrot which is really a waste of time. The trick is to > condition the dog using food and then withdraw it as soon as possible. > > Yes, I have heard of starving the dog inorder for it to be food motivated. > > It does work but again I believe the handler is inexperienced and should > rather motivate the dog to enjoy the training. A dog having fun will > always respond better than one looking for food. > > As far as stress levels and food are concerned I have found not all dogs > are food orientated. A lot depends on their daily feeding regimen and > what > the treat is. I doubt if a well fed dog will break a gut for kibble! > > Lastly, there is also the ego the handler which must also be taken into > consideration. Some will stop at nothing inorder to succeed. I have seen > far, far worse than you describe! > Best regards > Glynne > >> > I would like some help from those of you more eddykated than myself. >> > >> > I am involved in a debate with a large number of dog trainers >concerning >> food >> > training. Many of these people are advocates of operant conditioning >and >> > positive reinforcement and use food extensively for their training >> methods. A >> > large number of these folks believe that if the dog is not responding >to >> the >> > training treats, you starve the dog. The philosophy being that after >two >> or >> > three days, the dog will definitely be interested in the training >treats. >> > >> > I was appalled at that mentality. It is my experience that a normal, >> healthy >> > dog who is at a normal stress level will always respond to food. If >the >> dog >> > has no interest in training treats, then he is either ill, in pain, or >> too >> > stressed to learn. Depriving him of his dinner is not a logical >solution >> for >> > any of these conditions. Quite the contrary, it would seem to me that >> knowing >> > his dinner will come at the same time each day, regardless of whether >or >> not >> > he will eat it, would help his stress level. >> > >> > Can anyone supply information or sources that support my contentions, >or, >> > conversely, convince me that I am all wet? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Kathy Hughes > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"vall3@flash.net" "Carol Minar" 4-JUL-1998 23:07:31.38 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: introduction Hello List, Having just joined this list I'd like to introduce myself. I am a native Texan who trains dogs for sport and bussiness. I am a member of the Association Of Pet Dog Trainers. I train Pet dogs for the general public in the form of teaching classes, training dogs for owners, and working with people in private lesson situations. I have worked sence the age of 19 for vet clinics and also as a groomer for 10years. During this entire time I also have participated in many dog sports, have belonged to many dog clubs, and have been to so many seminars related to dogs that my "nick name" given to me by my friends ,was at times "seminar Sue". So at the age of 48 I'm continueing the tradition of learning more and more about our beloved canis familiaris by joining this list in hopes to learn from you. Carol Minar vall3@flash.net From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "appleby" 5-JUL-1998 00:51:29.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Someone Looking for Help In article <199807042022.QAA18705@christopher.INS.CWRU.Edu>, D.B. Cameron writes >Reply to message from appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk of Fri, 03 Jul >> >>In article <199807021757.NAA10674@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu>, D.B. Cameron >> writes >>>Reply to message from heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk of Thu, 02 Jul >>>> >>>>To everyone who has replied to this mail - Thank you >>>>I will pass all your comments on to Erica Peachey who asked for >>>>the information and I hope she may send a response to everyone >>>>I agree with all of the comments made about withdrawal of >>>>attention, changes in the children's behaviour etc but when >>>>Erica first asked me about the case and I put forward these >>>>explanations Erica did not feel that they applied in this case. >>>>Apparently these children are very calm when playing with the >>>>play station!! >>>>Thank you once again >>>> >>>> >>> The demeanor of the children has nothing to do with the dog's >>>reaction. It is the ignoring that the dog reacts to. >>> >>> >> >>Should this not read - The demeanor of the children may have nothing to >>do with the dog's reaction. It may be the ignoring that the dog reacts >>to. >> >> >>Best wishes. >> >> David > > Close, but no cigar. > I agree, technically, with your gently put (thank you) suggestion. > > But (and please do not forget the qualifying assumptions I made in >my first post): > > 1) I prefer: The demeanor of the children almost certainly has >nothing to do with the dog's reaction. It is highly likely that the >ignoring is what the dog is reacting to. > 2) I have analized why I repeatedly put my foot in it, and I believe >I have the answer: > - I am a field therapist. I deal almost exclusively with >very behaviorally unsophisticated pet owners who are having serious >problems, i.e., most of my patients have a terminal disease and are >rather near the receiving end of the big blue needle. In that situation >if I waffle around with all the technically and academically necessary >qualifications and disclaimers, I lose my credibility and we end up >with a dead pet. > I am well aware that academia and academics are vital to the >knowledge search process. I admire and need you. THANKS VERY MUCH!!! >ALSO, the other side of the equation is that YOU NEED ME!!! (collective >"me"). You need me to provide you with problems to examine and you >need me to verify your solutions. You need me to provide perspective >to balance your academic machinations. > The net is that, if we are to get the best results in these areas >that we both care very much about, we need to recognize that we need each >other, and work together to feed on (support) each other. > Actually I am a sharp-end practitioner, so is the original questioner and the person who corresponded for them. The wording of the question "I have been contacted by a colleague who is asking whether there has been any research into the potential effects of video games and play stations on dogs in terms of behavioural changes (e.g. such as the reported links between such these devices and epilepsy in people)" suggests it was posed in an attempt to exclude differential diagnoses in keeping with the necessary scientific approach to treating behavioural problems. Given that it can take 3/4 of an hour or more to take a history and determine accurate diagnosis this forum does not seem to be the right place to diagnose specific cases. However I think there is a place for discussing hypotheses relevant to the application of companion animal ethology. Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"rudy.demeester@ping.be" "De Meester" 5-JUL-1998 01:19:53.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: pseudopregnancy and hierarchical status Rudy De Meester dr. med. vet. sint anna 100 9220 Hamme Belgium rudy.demeester@ping.be Hello, I am looking for information on pseudopregnancy. More specific I wonder if there is a relation between the occurence of this and the hierarchical status of the animal ( canid) involved. Not only the frequency, but also the symptoms could be different. Is there anybody who knows where I can find references or who has facts on this topic. As a second part of the investigation I am looking for a questionnaire that I could give the owners of these dogs and that could give me a reliable indication of the hierarchical status ( or drive) of the animal involved. All this is for a student at the university of Ghent. Thanks a lot. Rudy De Meester. From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 5-JUL-1998 12:39:45.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: science vs fieldwork Hello everyone! I do not believe that we can separate science and research methodology from field work methodology. We are neither as objective in research as we would like to think ourselves, nor are we as subjective as it would seem in the field. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"michelle@asu.uswest.net" 5-JUL-1998 15:12:08.43 To: IN%"kats@missingpet.org" "Kat Albrecht" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: conservation --Boundary_(ID_pjWt2R5A2u9A9ZgmARuqNQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Hello, my name is michelle and I am interested in animal behavior has a tool in conservation methods. I 'm a senior at ASU and looking for information on programs in this field. Any help would be appreciated. thanks --Boundary_(ID_pjWt2R5A2u9A9ZgmARuqNQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
 
Hello, my name is michelle and I am interested in animal behavior has a tool in conservation methods.  I 'm a senior at ASU and looking for information on programs in this field.  Any help would be appreciated.

thanks
  --Boundary_(ID_pjWt2R5A2u9A9ZgmARuqNQ)-- From: IN%"jln9532@omega.uta.edu" "Jamie Nettles" 6-JUL-1998 05:25:44.74 To: CC: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Heresy On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, James F. Brody wrote: > Message text written by Jamie Nettles > >I agree with you that people sometimes get carried away with not > anthropomorphizing.< > > Anthropomorphizing bothers me a lot less than it once did.* > > If you admit: > > The plausibility of "psychological adaptations" > The plausibility of homologous structures or analogous ones > The plausibility of our being able to "mind read" each other with SOME > accuracy about social reactions, deceit, etc. > The plausibility of our sharing adaptations with other living creatures > The chance that the number of shared adaptations, particularly for > nurturance, is a variable that influences whether we keep a particular > critter for a pet. > > Then, you can probably "know" when a terrier, cat, or rat is "happy" to > about the same degree that you can accurately judge those feelings for > yourself (many of us have interesting "gaps" in self monitoring. > > Fun stuff! > I agree. Similar psychological mechanisms no doubt exist in animals and we can no doubt detect them. I can read the emotions of my German Shepherd. I know when she's angry, when she wants to play, when she feels guilty about something, when she is sneaking a tissue out of the trash. I have seen her apparently study a problem and think through a solution (her ball was stuck in a tree). I suspect this is convergent evolution, since our last common ancestor was, I think, about 65 million years ago. But projection is a widely acknowledged and powerful mechanism of the human brain. With members of our own species, we often ascribe emotions and intentions to another that actually are our own. This is one reason why, even though I resent having strict methodology imposed on me, and even though my own instincts about what animals are thinking will guide my speculations in this area, I still think we ought to perform experiments or use other means to assure ourselves that we aren't fooling ourselves. From: IN%"jln9532@omega.uta.edu" "Jamie Nettles" 6-JUL-1998 05:54:17.80 To: CC: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Heresy On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, James F. Brody wrote: > Message text written by Jamie Nettles > >The crucial difference is that we (I hope) have a model in our > heads of the real world, that allows us to play what-if games and > to predict what will happen.< > > "Naturally" we have models, wouldn't survive without them. > > I was fascinated by a note from Kelly Kissane that Salticid spiders leap > not at their targets present location but at its future spot. A splendid > example of "planning"? Apparently not a unique feat for many creatures. To me, there would be a big difference between the spider having a built in, hard-wired rule such as offset the angle of jump 1 degree from the end of the target with the two large spots (not planning - no model) and a model such as sometimes prey move, this prey moves at this rate, at this time of day it might very well move, so I think I'll jump a little offset in the direction it will move. You might say that the model is present both in both versions and I would say yes, but in the first case the model (or knowledge) is implicit in the neural connections of the spider and in the second case it is explicit and discrete. Note that I don't mean to imply that the model is either more complicated or necessarily more effective than the hardwired rules. Also, the rules don't necessarily implement two-valued logic. Multi-valued, fuzzy logic is more probably the case. > > We do it verbally but the relevant ones, just as the relevant emotions, may > be nonverbal. I recall being a "subject" in a problem solving study in > grad school. I worked 3 hours with very high accuracy beyond the point > where I could explain my answer. I just "knew" what it was. > I am convinced that we have multiple processors up there above our necks. The one that is connected to our mouths and ears likes to think (and say) that it's the only one in there and that it runs the show, but I suspect that's just bravado. If you have tried to quit smoking or loose weight you may know what I'm talking about. Try this little thought experiment. What would happen if you decided that breathing was unnecessary and decided to hold your breath forever? Unless you found some way to trick your lower brain, your lower brain would override your decision and you would take a breath. When you took your test, that part of your brain that controls your mouth was at a loss, but some other part knew very well what it was doing. The talking part of the brain isn't all that smart, really, it's just the front man who does the interfacing with the talking part of other people's brains. Also, the language processor can be disconnected from the outside world (take the output port and connect it to the input port). By talking to yourself in this way, you can do feats of logic, which is after all just a language - something the language processor is well suited for. However, you can't really do this kind of logic on something unless you have the right words - not a limitation for the nonverbal parts of your brain. From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 6-JUL-1998 08:55:39.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: pacing dog-update Dear all: I answered this e-mail and unfortunately forgot to change the address, soory dean and rexamara. I am getting increasingly concerned about the animal behavior counseling going on over this network. It appears the network has become a source of free advice for behavior peoblems. However, a consult over the net without proper history taking, diagnosis, and differential is unprofessional and not in the best interest of the animal. I cannot recommend strongly enough that people seeking help should approach their veterinarian and if deemed appropriate, request referral to a qualified behavior consultant. Andrew >HELLO AGAIN, MY ANIMAL BEHAVIORISTS FRIENDS! > >thanks so much for all your responses and help in rex's >odd behavior. here are some answers and more details in >his pacing; the rimadyl was begun aug of '97, due to rex >showing difficulty in standing from a sitting position and >not being able to hop in the car or on the bed. since the >rimadyl, he is 98% better! rex has paced since approximately >6 years of age, so i doubt it is age related, he is very >attached to me, over the rest of the family and is always >by my side wherever i go, when im at home. he is very healthy >for 12 years and has excellent teeth. the quarkiest and most >disturbing aspect of his pacing behavior is when his does >settle down and actually lies down, within a minute he will >bolt to his feet very, very quickly, as if a gunshot went off >and startled him! from there, he resumes pacing. rex also seems >to be in his own world, he won't stop to be petted OR to eat a treat. >he does momentarily stop to "paw" at the carpet, not the tile floor, >only the carpet area. this pacing only occurs once or twice, every >3-4 months and @ around 9:30-10:00pm. the family has done different >routines each time, we can go to bed, stay up later, go to a movie, >it doesn't matter, at 9-10pm rex will begin his pacing. >i have ALWAYS been concerned about his pacing behavior, your help >is just another attempt to find out what exactly is the cause! >but being, no one on the web can actually see rex in person makes >it more difficult to prognose. i thank you all again and hope we >can help rex! i would like more info on selegiline/L-deprenyl >and cognitive dysfunction (Dr. Mertens). > sincerely > dean and rexarama > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 6-JUL-1998 09:32:04.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. Unfortunately, most owners have a very hard time communicating to the dog what exactly they want from him/her. That's where food comes in: it is one of the most practical way to tell the dog what we want. It's not a bribe, it's a way of communicating. That doesn't mean the dog doesn't work for the handler, it just means the dog knows what the handler wants. It's even better if the food is paired with a clicker. The clicker is a practical way to prcisely mark the correct behavior. As regards starving a dog. There aren't many dogs that won't really like some treat. Dogs that don't accept treats are most likely too stressed to take them. Andrew Luescher At 04:29 PM 7/4/98 -0400, you wrote: > > > WHAT A GREAT ANSWER!!! Thank you very much! > > Though he/she does not know it specifically, a pet owner does >not want the dog to learn to work for a piece of cheese. He/she >wants the dog to work for them. And there is absolutely no >practical reason why this should not happen. > > > > > > > >Reply to message from k9acad@iafrica.com of Fri, 03 Jul >> >> >> >>---------- >> From: Glynne Anderson >> To: Kattykorn2@aol.com >> Subject: Re: Dog training and food deprivation. >> Date: Friday, July 03, 1998 11:02 AM >> >> Hi Kathy >> I am also uneddykated but perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents for what they >> are worth ... maybe just a different view on which to ponder. Firstly >> you must understand every one on this planet is an expert on dogs ... >>even >> the post man. Get it? >> >> Now, on the subject of food training: I believe a good handler is able to >> motivate the dog without having to depend on food or gimmicks. However, >> normally only experienced or gifted handlers can sucessfully achieve this. >> (Of course there are exceptions to every rule.) >> I believe food can be a good training aid poviding it is used correctly. >> >> It should be given as a reward to reinforce the required behaviour but >> unfortunately it is seldom used sucessfully. I have seen handlers >> dangling it in front of the dog's >> nose like a carrot which is really a waste of time. The trick is to >> condition the dog using food and then withdraw it as soon as possible. >> >> Yes, I have heard of starving the dog inorder for it to be food motivated. >> >> It does work but again I believe the handler is inexperienced and should >> rather motivate the dog to enjoy the training. A dog having fun will >> always respond better than one looking for food. >> >> As far as stress levels and food are concerned I have found not all dogs >> are food orientated. A lot depends on their daily feeding regimen and >> what >> the treat is. I doubt if a well fed dog will break a gut for kibble! >> >> Lastly, there is also the ego the handler which must also be taken into >> consideration. Some will stop at nothing inorder to succeed. I have seen >> far, far worse than you describe! >> Best regards >> Glynne >> >>> > I would like some help from those of you more eddykated than myself. >>> > >>> > I am involved in a debate with a large number of dog trainers >>concerning >>> food >>> > training. Many of these people are advocates of operant conditioning >>and >>> > positive reinforcement and use food extensively for their training >>> methods. A >>> > large number of these folks believe that if the dog is not responding >>to >>> the >>> > training treats, you starve the dog. The philosophy being that after >>two >>> or >>> > three days, the dog will definitely be interested in the training >>treats. >>> > >>> > I was appalled at that mentality. It is my experience that a normal, >>> healthy >>> > dog who is at a normal stress level will always respond to food. If >>the >>> dog >>> > has no interest in training treats, then he is either ill, in pain, or >>> too >>> > stressed to learn. Depriving him of his dinner is not a logical >>solution >>> for >>> > any of these conditions. Quite the contrary, it would seem to me that >>> knowing >>> > his dinner will come at the same time each day, regardless of whether >>or >>> not >>> > he will eat it, would help his stress level. >>> > >>> > Can anyone supply information or sources that support my contentions, >>or, >>> > conversely, convince me that I am all wet? >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > >>> > Kathy Hughes >> >> > >-- > ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 > > From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 6-JUL-1998 11:01:22.23 To: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "'Andrew Luescher'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: pacing dog-update As a fee taking professional I can understand Andrew stance. As a person with a keen interest in the topic I can also understand the interest and curiosity that has its unprecedented outlet in such networks as ours. I must say I tend to respond to questions by veterinarians and others in direct charge of a problem, who ask for observations. I do not tend to reply to vague or incomplete questions. We all practise our professions against a background of amazing access to information and it behoves us to be better, more vivid, more memorable and more accurate than the 'Internet' when we diagnose and treat. What the Internet undoes is the buttoned down professional mystique and secrecy. [ Look what happened to Russia ! ] What Andrew is right about is the harm that may be caused by well meaning but wrong advice arising from insufficient information. However. there is room for lively debate about problems and the science in general and this cannot become a secret debate for fear of being 'overheard'. If we feel our clients will discover facts that we have not divulged or do not know then it is 'us' who have to galvanise ourselves. It is no longer possible to keep the client in the dark ! What the 'professional' carer has to offer is a genuine concern and interest and a tendency not to 'switch off' and depart. Plus the tendency to be still available and interested when the next problem arises. These are not invariable characteristics of the journalist, or Internet 'surfer'. Robin -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Luescher [SMTP:luescher@vet.purdue.edu] Sent: 07 July 1998 17:56 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: pacing dog-update Dear all: I answered this e-mail and unfortunately forgot to change the address, soory dean and rexamara. I am getting increasingly concerned about the animal behavior counseling going on over this network. It appears the network has become a source of free advice for behavior peoblems. However, a consult over the net without proper history taking, diagnosis, and differential is unprofessional and not in the best interest of the animal. I cannot recommend strongly enough that people seeking help should approach their veterinarian and if deemed appropriate, request referral to a qualified behavior consultant. Andrew From: IN%"Gmlandvm@aol.com" 6-JUL-1998 11:22:13.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" Subj: RE: pacing dog-update I too agree with Andrew's position. In many of these "Can you help me with my pet's problem" postings, we cannot do justice to the case in this type of format. We need to reiterate that behavior cases (as opposed to behavior questions or queries), take a great deal of in depth history taking and counselling to develop and explain an appropriate treatment plan, not to mention achieving an accurate diagnosis. The prognosis on each case is also an important consideration that must be discussed and the danger/risk/liability is also an issue in these cases. I have also seen advice on this service that I woould consider inaccurate or so simplistic or superficial that it is likely to mislead or cause more harm than good. I often read, learn, and lurk but do not wish to provide counseling for these very reasons. Gary Landsberg Veterinary Behaviorist From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 6-JUL-1998 12:33:34.29 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: Names On Fri, 03 Jul 1998 16:41:23 +0100 Robin Walker wrote: > > (Ray Stricklin is a text pecker! He is right about > Adaptive. His stiff communication has tightened > up my loose usage.) > I have been known by several titles and a few monikers during the stages of my life. My wife's favorite is what I was called by troops in the Army, "Ole Turtle-Head." Considering some of the alternatives, I take the name "Text Pecker" to be a compliment, and I will attempt to live up to all the expectations that come with the title. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 6-JUL-1998 20:25:33.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. Reply to message from luescher@vet.purdue.edu of Tue, 07 Jul > >Unfortunately, most owners have a very hard time communicating to the dog >what exactly they want from him/her. That's where food comes in: it is one >of the most practical way to tell the dog what we want. It's not a bribe, >it's a way of communicating. That doesn't mean the dog doesn't work for the >handler, it just means the dog knows what the handler wants. > I fail to understand how, if the trainer (owner) does not understand how to communicate with a pet with some sort of social reinforcement (stroke, kind word, etc.) how a bit of food makes any difference in the effectiveness of either attempt at communication. Both food and social reinforcements are primary reinforcers and, as such, should have equal effects on the subject if applied equally. The difference, in my mind and experience, is that the food trained dog is center for reinforcement on the food not the food giver. Alternatively, the socially rewarded subject is centered on the rewarder. Dogs do not often get sated on social reinforcement while they certainly can and do become sated on food. >It's even better if the food is paired with a clicker. The clicker is a >practical way to prcisely mark the correct behavior. Conditioned reinforcers are certainly very effective for reinforcing at a distance and for marking a precise time in a sequence of behaviors. However, they have a serious drawback in the context of this discussion in that teaching and using conditioned reinforcers requires a trained sensative (to the demands of very precise timing) trainer. Since you brought up the problems of pet owners who have problems communicating with their pets, I find it difficult to expect such owners to be successful with the use of "clicker training". > >As regards starving a dog. There aren't many dogs that won't really like >some treat. Dogs that don't accept treats are most likely too stressed to >take them. I certainly agree here. > >Andrew Luescher > >At 04:29 PM 7/4/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >> WHAT A GREAT ANSWER!!! Thank you very much! >> >> Though he/she does not know it specifically, a pet owner does >>not want the dog to learn to work for a piece of cheese. He/she >>wants the dog to work for them. And there is absolutely no >>practical reason why this should not happen. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Reply to message from k9acad@iafrica.com of Fri, 03 Jul >>> >>> >>> >>>---------- >>> From: Glynne Anderson >>> To: Kattykorn2@aol.com >>> Subject: Re: Dog training and food deprivation. >>> Date: Friday, July 03, 1998 11:02 AM >>> >>> Hi Kathy >>> I am also uneddykated but perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents for what they >>> are worth ... maybe just a different view on which to ponder. Firstly >>> you must understand every one on this planet is an expert on dogs ... >>>even >>> the post man. Get it? >>> >>> Now, on the subject of food training: I believe a good handler is able to >>> motivate the dog without having to depend on food or gimmicks. However, >>> normally only experienced or gifted handlers can sucessfully achieve this. >>> (Of course there are exceptions to every rule.) >>> I believe food can be a good training aid poviding it is used correctly. >>> >>> It should be given as a reward to reinforce the required behaviour but >>> unfortunately it is seldom used sucessfully. I have seen handlers >>> dangling it in front of the dog's >>> nose like a carrot which is really a waste of time. The trick is to >>> condition the dog using food and then withdraw it as soon as possible. >>> >>> Yes, I have heard of starving the dog inorder for it to be food motivated. >>> >>> It does work but again I believe the handler is inexperienced and should >>> rather motivate the dog to enjoy the training. A dog having fun will >>> always respond better than one looking for food. >>> >>> As far as stress levels and food are concerned I have found not all dogs >>> are food orientated. A lot depends on their daily feeding regimen and >>> what >>> the treat is. I doubt if a well fed dog will break a gut for kibble! >>> >>> Lastly, there is also the ego the handler which must also be taken into >>> consideration. Some will stop at nothing inorder to succeed. I have seen >>> far, far worse than you describe! >>> Best regards >>> Glynne >>> >>>> > I would like some help from those of you more eddykated than myself. >>>> > >>>> > I am involved in a debate with a large number of dog trainers >>>concerning >>>> food >>>> > training. Many of these people are advocates of operant conditioning >>>and >>>> > positive reinforcement and use food extensively for their training >>>> methods. A >>>> > large number of these folks believe that if the dog is not responding >>>to >>>> the >>>> > training treats, you starve the dog. The philosophy being that after >>>two >>>> or >>>> > three days, the dog will definitely be interested in the training >>>treats. >>>> > >>>> > I was appalled at that mentality. It is my experience that a normal, >>>> healthy >>>> > dog who is at a normal stress level will always respond to food. If >>>the >>>> dog >>>> > has no interest in training treats, then he is either ill, in pain, or >>>> too >>>> > stressed to learn. Depriving him of his dinner is not a logical >>>solution >>>> for >>>> > any of these conditions. Quite the contrary, it would seem to me that >>>> knowing >>>> > his dinner will come at the same time each day, regardless of whether >>>or >>>> not >>>> > he will eat it, would help his stress level. >>>> > >>>> > Can anyone supply information or sources that support my contentions, >>>or, >>>> > conversely, convince me that I am all wet? >>>> > >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > >>>> > Kathy Hughes >>> >>> >> >>-- >> ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) >> < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 >> ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 >> .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 >> >> > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"lynfra@globalnet.co.uk" "Lynn Crook" 7-JUL-1998 02:59:09.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. > I fail to understand how, if the trainer (owner) does not understand >how to communicate with a pet with some sort of social reinforcement >(stroke, kind word, etc.) how a bit of food makes any difference in >the effectiveness of either attempt at communication. Both food and >social reinforcements are primary reinforcers and, as such, should >have equal effects on the subject if applied equally. > The difference, in my mind and experience, is that the food >trained dog is center for reinforcement on the food not the food giver. >Alternatively, the socially rewarded subject is centered on the >rewarder. Dogs do not often get sated on social reinforcement while >they certainly can and do become sated on food. I get a lot of puppy owners coming to me for help with training who have young pups who take NO notice of them at all! They have no hope unless they use food as a reinforcer---rightly or wrongly it works---who cares that the dog is focused on the food, at least it is focused on or around the owner and not half a mile down the field!!!! As for rescue dogs, often they couldn't care less about the new owner (not always, sometimes it works the other way!), for those dogs food is also the answer. Strokes and kind words mean nothing to the dog because they get them all the time for free!-----they DO get sated on them. If the owners ignored the dogs and only reacted during training it would work well---as it often does in kenneled working dogs, but not for pet owners. As for clickers I have some people using them for certain things and they are working well, they are another tool to be used with food, toys and praise! B.T.W. my dogs all work for toys and praise and me except for the latest rescue who didn't know I existed till I used food---8mths later she is just beginning to enjoy fuss, but to begin with she had to work for even a stroke---nothing for free, VERY hard to do and impossible in a family with a pet dog lynn From: IN%"weinandy@zoologie.uni-halle.de" 7-JUL-1998 05:58:33.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: R. W. Elwood Hi all, we are looking for the current address of R. W. Elwood and can not find it. May anyone help? Thanks in advance, R. Weinandy ------------------------------------------- Dr. Rene Weinandy Martin-Luther-Universitaet Halle-Wittenberg Institut fuer Zoologie 06108 Halle (Saale) Tel: ++49 - 345 - 55 264 66 Fax: ++49 - 345 - 55 271 52 weinandy@zoologie.uni-halle.de From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 7-JUL-1998 09:46:17.23 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. Further to my original post I think a very important point is being overlooked here and that is the reason for using food in the first place. For example, is it being used to teach, say tracking or is it being used to rectify a training problem? Perhaps for C Test competition work inorder to achieve a dead strait sit or maybe to teach a 6 week old puppy how to sit? Or is it being used for teaching tricks, defence or rescue? Could also be used to condition a dog to enjoy a trip to the vet? The subject is so complex that perhaps we need to be more specific. Regards Glynne > From: D.B. Cameron > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Dog training and food deprivation. > Date: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 4:25 AM > > Reply to message from luescher@vet.purdue.edu of Tue, 07 Jul > > > >Unfortunately, most owners have a very hard time communicating to the dog > >what exactly they want from him/her. That's where food comes in: it is one > >of the most practical way to tell the dog what we want. It's not a bribe, > >it's a way of communicating. That doesn't mean the dog doesn't work for the > >handler, it just means the dog knows what the handler wants. > > > > I fail to understand how, if the trainer (owner) does not understand > how to communicate with a pet with some sort of social reinforcement > (stroke, kind word, etc.) how a bit of food makes any difference in > the effectiveness of either attempt at communication. Both food and > social reinforcements are primary reinforcers and, as such, should > have equal effects on the subject if applied equally. > The difference, in my mind and experience, is that the food > trained dog is center for reinforcement on the food not the food giver. > Alternatively, the socially rewarded subject is centered on the > rewarder. Dogs do not often get sated on social reinforcement while > they certainly can and do become sated on food. > > > > > >It's even better if the food is paired with a clicker. The clicker is a > >practical way to prcisely mark the correct behavior. > > > Conditioned reinforcers are certainly very effective for reinforcing > at a distance and for marking a precise time in a sequence of behaviors. > However, they have a serious drawback in the context of this discussion > in that teaching and using conditioned reinforcers requires a trained > sensative (to the demands of very precise timing) trainer. Since you > brought up the problems of pet owners who have problems communicating > with their pets, I find it difficult to expect such owners to be > successful with the use of "clicker training". > > > > > >As regards starving a dog. There aren't many dogs that won't really like > >some treat. Dogs that don't accept treats are most likely too stressed to > >take them. > > > I certainly agree here. > > > > >Andrew Luescher > > > >At 04:29 PM 7/4/98 -0400, you wrote: > >> > >> > >> WHAT A GREAT ANSWER!!! Thank you very much! > >> > >> Though he/she does not know it specifically, a pet owner does > >>not want the dog to learn to work for a piece of cheese. He/she > >>wants the dog to work for them. And there is absolutely no > >>practical reason why this should not happen. > >> > >> > >> > >>> From: Glynne Anderson > >>> To: Kattykorn2@aol.com > >>> Subject: Re: Dog training and food deprivation. > >>> Date: Friday, July 03, 1998 11:02 AM > >>> > >>> Hi Kathy > >>> I am also uneddykated but perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents for what they > >>> are worth ... maybe just a different view on which to ponder. Firstly > >>> you must understand every one on this planet is an expert on dogs .... > >>>even > >>> the post man. Get it? > >>> > >>> Now, on the subject of food training: I believe a good handler is able to > >>> motivate the dog without having to depend on food or gimmicks. However, > >>> normally only experienced or gifted handlers can sucessfully achieve this. > >>> (Of course there are exceptions to every rule.) > >>> I believe food can be a good training aid poviding it is used correctly. > >>> > >>> It should be given as a reward to reinforce the required behaviour but > >>> unfortunately it is seldom used sucessfully. I have seen handlers > >>> dangling it in front of the dog's > >>> nose like a carrot which is really a waste of time. The trick is to > >>> condition the dog using food and then withdraw it as soon as possible. > >>> > >>> Yes, I have heard of starving the dog inorder for it to be food motivated. > >>> > >>> It does work but again I believe the handler is inexperienced and should > >>> rather motivate the dog to enjoy the training. A dog having fun will > >>> always respond better than one looking for food. > >>> > >>> As far as stress levels and food are concerned I have found not all dogs > >>> are food orientated. A lot depends on their daily feeding regimen and > >>> what > >>> the treat is. I doubt if a well fed dog will break a gut for kibble! > >>> > >>> Lastly, there is also the ego the handler which must also be taken into > >>> consideration. Some will stop at nothing inorder to succeed. I have seen > >>> far, far worse than you describe! > >>> Best regards > >>> Glynne > >>> > >>>> > I would like some help from those of you more eddykated than myself. > >>>> > > >>>> > I am involved in a debate with a large number of dog trainers > >>>concerning > >>>> food > >>>> > training. Many of these people are advocates of operant conditioning > >>>and > >>>> > positive reinforcement and use food extensively for their training > >>>> methods. A > >>>> > large number of these folks believe that if the dog is not responding > >>>to > >>>> the > >>>> > training treats, you starve the dog. The philosophy being that after > >>>two > >>>> or > >>>> > three days, the dog will definitely be interested in the training > >>>treats. > >>>> > > >>>> > I was appalled at that mentality. It is my experience that a normal, > >>>> healthy > >>>> > dog who is at a normal stress level will always respond to food. If > >>>the > >>>> dog > >>>> > has no interest in training treats, then he is either ill, in pain, or > >>>> too > >>>> > stressed to learn. Depriving him of his dinner is not a logical > >>>solution > >>>> for > >>>> > any of these conditions. Quite the contrary, it would seem to me that > >>>> knowing > >>>> > his dinner will come at the same time each day, regardless of whether > >>>or > >>>> not > >>>> > he will eat it, would help his stress level. > >>>> > > >>>> > Can anyone supply information or sources that support my contentions, > >>>or, > >>>> > conversely, convince me that I am all wet? > >>>> > > >>>> > Thanks, > >>>> > > >>>> > Kathy Hughes > >>> > >>> > >> > >>-- > >> ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > >> < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > >> ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > >> .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 > > -- > ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 7-JUL-1998 10:15:14.66 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. DBC Food is much easier to time than social reinforcement, is a short and discrete reinforcer, and does usually not induce too much excitement. Timing with food is easier than with social reinforcement. In my experience, it is quite easy to teach dog owners how to use a clicker correctly. It is much easier for them to time the click - they are more precise with a click than with a word (Gary Wilkes does a very convincing demonstration of that in his seminars). With regard to teh dog's focus: a highly trained dog is attentive to the trainer no matter what training method was used. Andrew At 10:25 PM 7/6/98 -0400, you wrote: >Reply to message from luescher@vet.purdue.edu of Tue, 07 Jul >> >>Unfortunately, most owners have a very hard time communicating to the dog >>what exactly they want from him/her. That's where food comes in: it is one >>of the most practical way to tell the dog what we want. It's not a bribe, >>it's a way of communicating. That doesn't mean the dog doesn't work for the >>handler, it just means the dog knows what the handler wants. >> > > I fail to understand how, if the trainer (owner) does not understand >how to communicate with a pet with some sort of social reinforcement >(stroke, kind word, etc.) how a bit of food makes any difference in >the effectiveness of either attempt at communication. Both food and >social reinforcements are primary reinforcers and, as such, should >have equal effects on the subject if applied equally. > The difference, in my mind and experience, is that the food >trained dog is center for reinforcement on the food not the food giver. >Alternatively, the socially rewarded subject is centered on the >rewarder. Dogs do not often get sated on social reinforcement while >they certainly can and do become sated on food. > > > > >>It's even better if the food is paired with a clicker. The clicker is a >>practical way to prcisely mark the correct behavior. > > > Conditioned reinforcers are certainly very effective for reinforcing >at a distance and for marking a precise time in a sequence of behaviors. >However, they have a serious drawback in the context of this discussion >in that teaching and using conditioned reinforcers requires a trained >sensative (to the demands of very precise timing) trainer. Since you >brought up the problems of pet owners who have problems communicating >with their pets, I find it difficult to expect such owners to be >successful with the use of "clicker training". > > >> >>As regards starving a dog. There aren't many dogs that won't really like >>some treat. Dogs that don't accept treats are most likely too stressed to >>take them. > > > I certainly agree here. > >> >>Andrew Luescher >> >>At 04:29 PM 7/4/98 -0400, you wrote: >>> >>> >>> WHAT A GREAT ANSWER!!! Thank you very much! >>> >>> Though he/she does not know it specifically, a pet owner does >>>not want the dog to learn to work for a piece of cheese. He/she >>>wants the dog to work for them. And there is absolutely no >>>practical reason why this should not happen. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Reply to message from k9acad@iafrica.com of Fri, 03 Jul >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>---------- >>>> From: Glynne Anderson >>>> To: Kattykorn2@aol.com >>>> Subject: Re: Dog training and food deprivation. >>>> Date: Friday, July 03, 1998 11:02 AM >>>> >>>> Hi Kathy >>>> I am also uneddykated but perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents for what they >>>> are worth ... maybe just a different view on which to ponder. Firstly >>>> you must understand every one on this planet is an expert on dogs ... >>>>even >>>> the post man. Get it? >>>> >>>> Now, on the subject of food training: I believe a good handler is able to >>>> motivate the dog without having to depend on food or gimmicks. However, >>>> normally only experienced or gifted handlers can sucessfully achieve this. >>>> (Of course there are exceptions to every rule.) >>>> I believe food can be a good training aid poviding it is used correctly. >>>> >>>> It should be given as a reward to reinforce the required behaviour but >>>> unfortunately it is seldom used sucessfully. I have seen handlers >>>> dangling it in front of the dog's >>>> nose like a carrot which is really a waste of time. The trick is to >>>> condition the dog using food and then withdraw it as soon as possible. >>>> >>>> Yes, I have heard of starving the dog inorder for it to be food motivated. >>>> >>>> It does work but again I believe the handler is inexperienced and should >>>> rather motivate the dog to enjoy the training. A dog having fun will >>>> always respond better than one looking for food. >>>> >>>> As far as stress levels and food are concerned I have found not all dogs >>>> are food orientated. A lot depends on their daily feeding regimen and >>>> what >>>> the treat is. I doubt if a well fed dog will break a gut for kibble! >>>> >>>> Lastly, there is also the ego the handler which must also be taken into >>>> consideration. Some will stop at nothing inorder to succeed. I have seen >>>> far, far worse than you describe! >>>> Best regards >>>> Glynne >>>> >>>>> > I would like some help from those of you more eddykated than myself. >>>>> > >>>>> > I am involved in a debate with a large number of dog trainers >>>>concerning >>>>> food >>>>> > training. Many of these people are advocates of operant conditioning >>>>and >>>>> > positive reinforcement and use food extensively for their training >>>>> methods. A >>>>> > large number of these folks believe that if the dog is not responding >>>>to >>>>> the >>>>> > training treats, you starve the dog. The philosophy being that after >>>>two >>>>> or >>>>> > three days, the dog will definitely be interested in the training >>>>treats. >>>>> > >>>>> > I was appalled at that mentality. It is my experience that a normal, >>>>> healthy >>>>> > dog who is at a normal stress level will always respond to food. If >>>>the >>>>> dog >>>>> > has no interest in training treats, then he is either ill, in pain, or >>>>> too >>>>> > stressed to learn. Depriving him of his dinner is not a logical >>>>solution >>>>> for >>>>> > any of these conditions. Quite the contrary, it would seem to me that >>>>> knowing >>>>> > his dinner will come at the same time each day, regardless of whether >>>>or >>>>> not >>>>> > he will eat it, would help his stress level. >>>>> > >>>>> > Can anyone supply information or sources that support my contentions, >>>>or, >>>>> > conversely, convince me that I am all wet? >>>>> > >>>>> > Thanks, >>>>> > >>>>> > Kathy Hughes >>>> >>>> >>> >>>-- >>> ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) >>> < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 >>> ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 >>> .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 >>> >>> >> >> >> > >-- > ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"overend99@hotmail.com" "overend watts" 7-JUL-1998 13:11:39.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"petra.mertens@lrz.uni-muenchen.de" Subj: pacing rex hello behaviorists' a couple of you mentioned seizures and partial epilepsia, rex's vet talked about that. Dr. Putty suggested that rex could be having mild seizures and the pacing is self-controlled alert response, similar to a person watching a scary movie and repeating to themselves; "this is only a movie...this is only a movie..." the latter sounds silly, but who knows? by the way, here in the U.S.A. we just celebrated the 4th of July, a national holiday where fireworks, loud firecrackers and poppers are shot off. unfortunately, for animals this is a miserable time and rex is always nervous from the noise and did in fact begin his pacing, but it was a more frantic-faster pace than usual with pawing at the carpet and trying to lean as close as possible to me and others in the family. any thoughts on this? any more about seizures? also i want to point out that i appreciate everyones help and iam responsible enough to know not to give rex any medications or therapy any of you suggest without first consulting our vet, Dr. Putty. thanks to all, again, Dean and sir rexford. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"joseph.garner@New.oxford.ac.uk" "Joseph Garner" 7-JUL-1998 13:14:04.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: falling down Help! I remmebr reading a long time ago, about the injuries sustained by different pets falling from different heights from apartment buildings in New York. I'm buggered if I can remeber who wrote it or where I saw it... any ideas? To be precise, I'm looking for references to make the point that very small animals are much less likely to die if you drop them from great heights.... A wood mouse can survive falling at least 15 times its body length (they can jump 1m high, and they're approx 6 cm long) whereas I'm not sure that an elephant could! Any help would be very much appreciated cheers Joe --------------------------------- Joseph Garner, Animal Behaviour Research Group, Zoology Dept. Oxford University, South Parks Road, OX1 3PS Tel: (0)1865 271214 Page: 01523 169589 Fax: (0)1865 310447 From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 7-JUL-1998 13:16:48.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. DBC Food is much easier to time than social reinforcement, is a short and discrete reinforcer, and does usually not induce too much excitement. Timing with food is easier than with social reinforcement. In my experience, it is quite easy to teach dog owners how to use a clicker correctly. It is much easier for them to time the click - they are more precise with a click than with a word (Gary Wilkes does a very convincing demonstration of that in his seminars). With regard to teh dog's focus: a highly trained dog is attentive to the trainer no matter what training method was used. Andrew At 10:25 PM 7/6/98 -0400, you wrote: >Reply to message from luescher@vet.purdue.edu of Tue, 07 Jul >> >>Unfortunately, most owners have a very hard time communicating to the dog >>what exactly they want from him/her. That's where food comes in: it is one >>of the most practical way to tell the dog what we want. It's not a bribe, >>it's a way of communicating. That doesn't mean the dog doesn't work for the >>handler, it just means the dog knows what the handler wants. >> > > I fail to understand how, if the trainer (owner) does not understand >how to communicate with a pet with some sort of social reinforcement >(stroke, kind word, etc.) how a bit of food makes any difference in >the effectiveness of either attempt at communication. Both food and >social reinforcements are primary reinforcers and, as such, should >have equal effects on the subject if applied equally. > The difference, in my mind and experience, is that the food >trained dog is center for reinforcement on the food not the food giver. >Alternatively, the socially rewarded subject is centered on the >rewarder. Dogs do not often get sated on social reinforcement while >they certainly can and do become sated on food. > > > > >>It's even better if the food is paired with a clicker. The clicker is a >>practical way to prcisely mark the correct behavior. > > > Conditioned reinforcers are certainly very effective for reinforcing >at a distance and for marking a precise time in a sequence of behaviors. >However, they have a serious drawback in the context of this discussion >in that teaching and using conditioned reinforcers requires a trained >sensative (to the demands of very precise timing) trainer. Since you >brought up the problems of pet owners who have problems communicating >with their pets, I find it difficult to expect such owners to be >successful with the use of "clicker training". > > >> >>As regards starving a dog. There aren't many dogs that won't really like >>some treat. Dogs that don't accept treats are most likely too stressed to >>take them. > > > I certainly agree here. > >> >>Andrew Luescher >> >>At 04:29 PM 7/4/98 -0400, you wrote: >>> >>> >>> WHAT A GREAT ANSWER!!! Thank you very much! >>> >>> Though he/she does not know it specifically, a pet owner does >>>not want the dog to learn to work for a piece of cheese. He/she >>>wants the dog to work for them. And there is absolutely no >>>practical reason why this should not happen. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Reply to message from k9acad@iafrica.com of Fri, 03 Jul >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>---------- >>>> From: Glynne Anderson >>>> To: Kattykorn2@aol.com >>>> Subject: Re: Dog training and food deprivation. >>>> Date: Friday, July 03, 1998 11:02 AM >>>> >>>> Hi Kathy >>>> I am also uneddykated but perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents for what they >>>> are worth ... maybe just a different view on which to ponder. Firstly >>>> you must understand every one on this planet is an expert on dogs ... >>>>even >>>> the post man. Get it? >>>> >>>> Now, on the subject of food training: I believe a good handler is able to >>>> motivate the dog without having to depend on food or gimmicks. However, >>>> normally only experienced or gifted handlers can sucessfully achieve this. >>>> (Of course there are exceptions to every rule.) >>>> I believe food can be a good training aid poviding it is used correctly. >>>> >>>> It should be given as a reward to reinforce the required behaviour but >>>> unfortunately it is seldom used sucessfully. I have seen handlers >>>> dangling it in front of the dog's >>>> nose like a carrot which is really a waste of time. The trick is to >>>> condition the dog using food and then withdraw it as soon as possible. >>>> >>>> Yes, I have heard of starving the dog inorder for it to be food motivated. >>>> >>>> It does work but again I believe the handler is inexperienced and should >>>> rather motivate the dog to enjoy the training. A dog having fun will >>>> always respond better than one looking for food. >>>> >>>> As far as stress levels and food are concerned I have found not all dogs >>>> are food orientated. A lot depends on their daily feeding regimen and >>>> what >>>> the treat is. I doubt if a well fed dog will break a gut for kibble! >>>> >>>> Lastly, there is also the ego the handler which must also be taken into >>>> consideration. Some will stop at nothing inorder to succeed. I have seen >>>> far, far worse than you describe! >>>> Best regards >>>> Glynne >>>> >>>>> > I would like some help from those of you more eddykated than myself. >>>>> > >>>>> > I am involved in a debate with a large number of dog trainers >>>>concerning >>>>> food >>>>> > training. Many of these people are advocates of operant conditioning >>>>and >>>>> > positive reinforcement and use food extensively for their training >>>>> methods. A >>>>> > large number of these folks believe that if the dog is not responding >>>>to >>>>> the >>>>> > training treats, you starve the dog. The philosophy being that after >>>>two >>>>> or >>>>> > three days, the dog will definitely be interested in the training >>>>treats. >>>>> > >>>>> > I was appalled at that mentality. It is my experience that a normal, >>>>> healthy >>>>> > dog who is at a normal stress level will always respond to food. If >>>>the >>>>> dog >>>>> > has no interest in training treats, then he is either ill, in pain, or >>>>> too >>>>> > stressed to learn. Depriving him of his dinner is not a logical >>>>solution >>>>> for >>>>> > any of these conditions. Quite the contrary, it would seem to me that >>>>> knowing >>>>> > his dinner will come at the same time each day, regardless of whether >>>>or >>>>> not >>>>> > he will eat it, would help his stress level. >>>>> > >>>>> > Can anyone supply information or sources that support my contentions, >>>>or, >>>>> > conversely, convince me that I am all wet? >>>>> > >>>>> > Thanks, >>>>> > >>>>> > Kathy Hughes >>>> >>>> >>> >>>-- >>> ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) >>> < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 >>> ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 >>> .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 >>> >>> >> >> >> > >-- > ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 > > From: IN%"fmartin@vetmed.wsu.edu" "Francois Martin" 7-JUL-1998 16:53:10.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Kanner's Syndrome Dear ethologist friends, I'm reading a paper by Tinbergen and Tinbergen (Early childhood autism: an ethological approach, 1972). They are talking about the Kanner's syndrome. Do you know what that is? Is it an ethological concept or a psychological concept? I can't find anything about it in my books on ethology. Maybe I will have more luck if I search in the DSM-IV. Have a nice day Francois Martin, Ph.D. Assistant-Director People-Pet Partnership College of Veterinary Medicine Washington State University PO Box 647010 Pullman WA 99164-7010 Phone 509 335-4569 Fax 509 335-6094 @mail fmartin@vetmed.wsu.edu From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 7-JUL-1998 17:14:41.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. Reply to message from LIHaug@aol.com of Tue, 07 Jul > >In a message dated 7/6/98 10:52:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu writes: > ><< Dogs do not often get sated on social reinforcement while > they certainly can and do become sated on food.>> > >This may be true; however, many dogs do not find their owner's attention >sufficiently motivating to work for in the face of stronger competing >motivations. Food often becomes a much more powerful reinforcement in such >situations. > I find just the opposite to be true. A bisquit, a steak, or a piece of cheese have appeal, but a very prescribed appeal at not a very high level. Try getting a food trained dog to COME, SIT or anything else in the face of a strong enticement of particular interest to that dog, e.g., a bitch in heat, a bunch of running kids, the wide open spaces. etc. These are the dogs that are presented to me with great regularity. If you can teach an owner to apply a conditioned reinforcer effectively, you can do the same thing with social reinforcing in half the time or less. Even more importantly, social reinforcement can be taught so easily that even moderately motivated owners will be successfull, which is more important to me. > > >It's even better if the food is paired with a clicker. The clicker is a > >practical way to prcisely mark the correct behavior. > > > Conditioned reinforcers are certainly very effective for reinforcing > at a distance and for marking a precise time in a sequence of behaviors. > However, they have a serious drawback in the context of this discussion > in that teaching and using conditioned reinforcers requires a trained > sensative (to the demands of very precise timing) trainer. Since you > brought up the problems of pet owners who have problems communicating > with their pets, I find it difficult to expect such owners to be > successful with the use of "clicker training".>> > >I have found the opposite to be true. While clicker training does require >precise timing, so does ANY effective method of training. True, but "clicker training" adds another level of trainer sophistication that many are not willing to bother with. The problem is, as I see it, that social reinforcement is so intuitive and rewarding in itself to owners that they are willing at a very basic level to do it. "Clicker training" requires a more sophisticated approach that is beyond many owners. In my clicker >classes and behavior cases, I have found that teaching principles of clicker >training makes the owner much more aware of the timing of their >reinforcements. I find that even novice owners become quite proficient at >shaping the desired behaviors in their dogs using clickers. > > That certainly makes good sense and has been my own experience, but I believe that the audience for learning to train at that relatively advanced level is much smaller than for a less demanding training understanding program. >Lore Haug, DVM >Houston, TX > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 7-JUL-1998 18:15:21.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Pooch Stuff >* DOGGY DICTIONARY ** > >LEASH: A strap which attaches to your collar, enabling you to lead >your person where you want him/her to go. > >DOG BED: any soft, clean surface, such as the white bedspread in the >guest room or the newly upholstered couch in the living room. > >DROOL: Is what you do when your persons have food and you don't. To >do this properly you must sit as close as you can and look sad and >let the drool fall to the floor, or better yet, on their laps. > >SNIFF: A social custom to use when you greet other dogs. Place your >nose as close as you can to the other dog's rear end and inhale >deeply, repeat several times, or until your person is seriously repulsed and makes you stop. > >GARBAGE CAN: A container which your neighbors put out once a week to >test your ingenuity. You must stand on your hind legs and try to push >the lid off with your nose. If you do it right you are rewarded with >margarine wrappers to shred, beef bones to consume and moldy crusts >of bread. > >BICYCLES: Two-wheeled exercise machines, invented for dogs to control >body fat. To get maximum aerobic benefit, you must hide behind a bush >and dash out, bark loudly and run alongside for a few yards; the >person then swerves and falls into the bushes, and you prance away. > >DEAFNESS: This is a malady which affects dogs when their person want >them in and they want to stay out. Symptoms include staring blankly >at the person, then running in the opposite direction, or lying down. > >THUNDER: This is a signal that the world is coming to an end. Humans >remain amazingly calm during thunderstorms, so it is necessary to >warn them of the danger by trembling uncontrollably, panting, rolling >your eyes wildly, and tearing down the blinds and destroying the couch. > >WASTEBASKET: This is a dog toy filled with paper, envelopes, and old >candy wrapper. When you get bored, turn over the basket and strew the >papers all over the house until your person comes home. Then grab the most exciting item and play keep-away with your owner. > >SOFAS: Are to dogs like napkins are to people. After eating it is >polite to run up and down the front of the sofa and wipe your >whiskers clean. > >BATH: This is a process by which the humans drench the floor, walls >and themselves. You can help by shaking vigorously and frequently. > >LEAN: Every good dogs's response to the command "sit !", especially >if your person is dressed for an evening out. Incredibly effective >before black-tie events. > >BUMP: The best way to get your human's attention when they are >drinking a fresh cup of coffee or tea. > >GOOSE BUMP: A maneuver to use as a last resort when the Regular Bump >doesn't get the attention you require.....especially effective when >combined with The Sniff. See above. > >LOVE: Is a feeling of intense affection, given freely and without >restriction. The best way you can show your love is to wag your tail. >If you're lucky, a human will love you in return. > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"murn@uriacc.uri.edu" "Murn Nippo" 7-JUL-1998 20:30:27.15 To: IN%"fmartin@vetmed.wsu.edu" "Francois Martin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Kanner's Syndrome Francois Martin wrote: > > Dear ethologist friends, > I'm reading a paper by Tinbergen and Tinbergen (Early childhood autism: > an ethological approach, 1972). They are talking about the Kanner's > syndrome. Do you know what that is? Is it an ethological concept or a > psychological concept? I can't find anything about it in my books on > ethology. Maybe I will have more luck if I search in the DSM-IV. > Have a nice day > > Francois Martin, Ph.D. > Assistant-Director > People-Pet Partnership > College of Veterinary Medicine > Washington State University > PO Box 647010 > Pullman WA 99164-7010 > Phone 509 335-4569 > Fax 509 335-6094 > @mail fmartin@vetmed.wsu.edu My understanding of Kanner's Syndrome is that it is a synonym for Classic Childhood Autism. The term "autistic spectrum disorders" (ASD) refers to the five diagnostic categories described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (4th ed.) (American Psychiatric Association, 1994) under the heading Pervasive Develop- mental Disorders (PDD). These five disorders are: Autistic Disorder Aspergers Disorder Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified (PDD-NOS) Childhood Disintegrative Disorder Retts Disorder Murn Nippo From: IN%"boris@lds.co.uk" "Yvonne Miles" 7-JUL-1998 22:49:04.17 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Clomicalm This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_iE0Fj3AnAnhdCGqKp9m/GA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am at the moment indulging in a fair amount of animal handling at a veterinarian hospital and have come across a drug called Clomicalm, clomipramine hydrochloride. This treatment seems to offer the reward of "changing behaviour for the better" ( in terms of separation anxiety). Does anyone know anything about this drug? Is there any papers on the use of this drug? ( if so could somebody e-mail it to me). Has anybody got any thoughts on the positive use of this drug or (dare I say) is it just drug company related funding at its best. --Boundary_(ID_iE0Fj3AnAnhdCGqKp9m/GA) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

I am at the moment indulging in a fair = amount of animal handling at a veterinarian hospital and have come = across a drug called Clomicalm, clomipramine hydrochloride.  This = treatment seems to offer the reward of "changing behaviour for the = better" ( in terms of separation anxiety).  Does anyone know = anything about this drug? Is there any papers on the use of this drug? ( = if so could somebody e-mail it to me).
Has anybody got any thoughts = on the positive use of this drug or (dare I say) is it just drug company = related funding at its best.




--Boundary_(ID_iE0Fj3AnAnhdCGqKp9m/GA)-- From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "appleby" 8-JUL-1998 04:39:05.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Clomicalm In article , Yvonne Miles writes >I am at the moment indulging in a fair amount of animal handling at a >veterinarian hospital and have come across a drug called Clomicalm, >clomipramine hydrochloride. This treatment seems to offer the reward of >"changing behaviour for the better" ( in terms of separation anxiety). >Does anyone know anything about this drug? Is there any papers on the use >of this drug? ( if so could somebody e-mail it to me). >Has anybody got any thoughts on the positive use of this drug or (dare I >say) is it just drug company related funding at its best. > > > Simpson, B. (1997) "Treatment of separation related anxiety in dogs with clomipramine". Proceedings of the First International Conference on Veterinary Behavioural Medicine. Universities Federation for Animal Welfare. Potters Bar. Great Britain. Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 8-JUL-1998 06:54:25.97 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com" "Howard Bloom (E-mail)", IN%"EuterpeL@aol.com" "Lorraine Rice (E-mail)", IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody (E-mail)" Subj: The Reward is the Click is the Reward is the Click... This is not directed at anyone because obviously everybody knows it. So just to remind myself:- The important thing about rewards is the question 'are they focussed or are they fuzzy?' Consummatory and Bonding rewards (food and cuddles) tend to be 'fuzzy' (unless you are in the 'hands' of a gourmet, exquisite, houri or courtesan but that is another thesis). Focussed rewards are the short sharp bursts of pleasure achieved by activities such as table tennis and pouncing on beetles. Making hedony (pleasure) conditional upon the occurrence of a stimulus is exemplified by Pavlov's famous salivating dogs. The sound of the bell or buzzer evokes the pleasurable anticipation of food of which one manifestation is dribbling. Something similar happens with the 'clicker' When rewarding a dog for a certain movement a titbit is produced as quickly as possible in association with a clicking sound. Pouncing on the titbit is as focussed as consummatory rewards get. The associated sound of a click (although at first meaningless) soon becomes itself a signal of reward which actually evokes the physical sensation of reward. In this way the click (evoking stimulus) can produce sharp pulsatile bursts of reward chemistry. Once this is established the click induced reward sensation can associated with something the animal does. Thus the performance of a task which is not especially rewarding becomes very rewarding. Withholding the reward (either the titbit or the click) say on 50% of the 'trials' places the recipient brain on a schedule of 'Partial Reinforcement' (PR). The intermittent 'disappointment or annoyance' of being denied the reward has (in my view) its very own neurochemistry. This is the chemistry of frustration or non-reward. It also seems to be susceptible to 'focussing' or being made pulsatile or a 'burst' of sensation. The interesting effect of frustration is the increased vigour of the attempt to achieve reward and the apparent heightening of the pleasure when the reward is actually achieved. Which is why the graphs of PR compared with CR (continuous reward) always show the animals running faster and seeming to demonstrate greater enthusiasm and greater reward. The related phenomenon of Resistance to Extinction is shown by individuals 'trained' on a PR schedule. Stopping rewards discourages and terminates reward seeking in continuously rewarded folk much more quickly than in PR types. The why and wherefore is to be pursued in the literature of drug addiction and withdrawal symptomology. The neural mechanics lie in a literature represented by the letter of Forillo and Williams 'Glutamate mediates an inhibitory postsynaptic potential in dopamine neurones' in Nature, Vol. 394 2 July 1998 p. 78. The technical challenge for the 'Dog Trainer' is to develop rapid and intense pleasure responses to crisp and clear signals. The measure of success is the ability of such signals to evoke responses that can outweigh the million-year old impetus 'Oh My! There's a Rabbit!'. The socio-psychological challenge is to relate the rhythms and fluctuations of reward chemistry to such topics as 'Why do women marry absolute bastards and seem to suffer abandonment so much more acutely that their sisters who seem to be able to leave sincere gentle continuously attentive husbands because they are boring?' Is the grief and pain of loss more acute after the Partial Reinforcement of life with a occasionally swine than the Continual Reinforcement of a really nice predictable and totally dependable type? Believe me, I think this is important. It gets particularly interesting when you read Howard Bloom's post on Deferred Gratification. here's a passage from Skoyles' _Odyssey_ which might give a clue or two. Similar experiments have been performed with chimpanzees, who also are able to manage gratification postponement when allowed to deal with a symbol of a treat rather than its reality. Howard ------- Some of the most interesting research upon the importance of delay and waiting for the right time comes from children. Psychologists gave some four- year-old infants a choice between two treats, say one rather than two marshmallows. The researchers told them they could have one marshmallow immediately if they rang a bell. But if they waited for someone to return, they would get two (which they would much prefer). The researchers were interested in how long children would delay the urge for immediate gratification. The children differed in how long they waited, but the average was 11 minutes (usually the experimenter returned after 15 minutes). If the sweets were in the same room as them, they could not resist so long: the time they could wait went down to six minutes. However they would wait longer if they learnt the trick of imagining the shape of the sweets -- they would wait 18 minutes even if they could see them. This idea acted as an inner cue with which they could control their responses. Not that any inner cue would work. They had to focus on a cool abstract aspect of sweets (such as their shape or colour) rather than a hot arousing one such as their taste (in which case they could not resist). Only a cool image let them hold the goal of getting what they wanted without stimulating their immediate `hot' urge. It is a prefrontal cortex trick for manipulating the mind to delay. An interesting sub-group of children had spontaneously had picked up such tricks (and other ones, such as distracting themselves or covering their eyes if the sweets were present). Ten years later when they were nearly 16, they were more socially competent and more successful at school -- they had higher scores on the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT). What these researchers did not study was the prefrontal cortex -- it was done long before science could pop someone in a brain scanner. However their prefrontal almost certainly must have been involved. Brain scans on delay tasks with adults show the prefrontal cortex activated when people delay a response. Their visual cortex lights up as well suggesting that their prefrontal cortex organises their delay by using visual mental imaginary. From this work and that on children it seems that our brain uses our prefrontal cortex to free it from the here and now by making and orchestrating inner cues -- and that since some people are better at doing this than others, they have the edge in doing well in life.  ---------- Howard Bloom (founder: International Paleopsychology Project; member: New York Academy of Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, American Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and Evolution Society, European Sociobiological Society; board member: Epic of Evolution Society) ******** It seems to me that it is possible to train personal hedonic responses on the equivalent of a voluntary Partial Reinforcement Schedule. So Nanny was right ! And no-one should eat until the Dinner Gong says so ! And a large wine cellar is an indicator of a great deal more than a lot of money. Robin From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 8-JUL-1998 07:14:12.13 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. In a message dated 98-07-03 08:16:48 EDT, you write: <> << Finally, I am always a bit bothered by the contingent that assume that there is something special about certain trainers. That they are capable of training animals without the need for treats. This is nonsense, these people are using subtle forms of reward that are just going unnoticed. >> In reading all the posts on dog training and food deprivation, I find this one the most insightful. The laws of learning always apply. It is just important to find out the motivator for the particular animal (human or otherwise) that is involved in the learning paradigm. If an animal will not "work" for food, then perhaps the training situation and relationship between trainer and animal needs work. Or, perhaps there are other motivators that the animal wants. Furthermore to assume that dogs do things to "please" their owners gets us into trouble. Dogs do things because they learn the contingency between response and outcome-if it is pleasant then they repeat the behavior, if it is not they don't. Why should the laws of learning be suspended because dogs are "man's best friend"? If a trainer needs to resort to food deprivation to teach a behavior, then perhaps they are limited in the different ways they are able to train. Witholding food prior to training is not a problem for me, or even missing one meal, but starving for several days seems extreme. What are they training this dog for? Lastly, there is a vast difference between a "trainer" (whatever that means) and what a pet owner with a problem pet needs or wants to do with their dog. In comparing the two we are comparing apples and oranges (even if they do make good treats!) How we as applied behaviorists counsel owners to change pet behavior is different than what someone may do to train a task for competition or "work". The level of expertise, willingness to work with the pet and past experience are different between the two. Debbie Horwitz From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 8-JUL-1998 07:43:07.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. In all of the discussion of reinforcers, there seem to be two hypotheses: (1) food is the best reinforcer and (2) social reinforcement is best. For a third, I will suggest "individual differences", which is what I've been using for many years. When working with a patient, I always ask the client how various reinforcers work for their dog. What have they tried? How well does reinforcer x, y, or z work? Sometimes owners have a very good idea of what motivates their dog and sometimes they don't. In the latter case, I try various options at the clinic and have the owners try more at home. Certain overall patterns have emerged. For one, most of my patients work better for a certain food treat than for social reinforcers. This may or may not be true of the dog population in general. With the families I work with, there is always a problem behavior on the part of the pet. However, the food treats vary. Biscuits, as a general rule, are totally useless. Smelly reinforcers, like cheese, hotdogs, liver or chunks of moist dog food work much better. For some dogs, it's the totally unexpected things that work. I've had one dog that loved broccoli florets. That's what got his attention, so that's what we used. In contrast, I have certainly had some patients for whom food treats were useless as a motivator. Sometimes throwing a ball or a frisbee worked best. Sometimes a pat from the owner worked better than any food treat. I occasionally have patients that do not work well for anything we try. However, treating the dog as an individual and identifying what works for that particular dog has always been the most effective approach for me. Sharon L. Crowell-Davis ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 8-JUL-1998 08:43:50.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: question Whether we speak of food, or clickers or affection as rewards, are we not speaking of a relationship? Debdmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 8-JUL-1998 09:33:53.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Strange Question Hello folks, I've seen a lot of posts about dog training lately. I've got a serious question about cattle. Maybe some of you trainers might have heard of an answer to this one. Does anyone know of any case in which an individual bovine has been deliberately trained to vocalize on demand, as one might train a dog to do? (e.g. in response to a voice signal, clicker, flashing light etc.) I'm not asking whether a cow moos along with all the rest when something exciting happens, like a feed truck arriving, or whether you can apply pain, stress or deprive it of social contact or calf and induce vocalizing. I know the answers to those questions. What I would like to know is, can a cow voluntarily vocalize, while relatively unstressed, in response to a biologically arbitrary signal associated with a fairly trivial token reward? By "biologically arbitrary" I mean a signal having no inherently arousing connotations or adaptive significance, such as you might expect from a sudden whiff of predator odour, the roar of a mighty lion, or an electric shock, or the vocalization of a conspecific to whom it might be inclined to call in reply. Perhaps a click or beep or voice command to which the animal has habituated to the extent that it does not in itself cause any alarm or apparent startle reaction. By a trivial reward I mean a little bit of food or water, not something that has considerable intrinsic motivation value like access to a companion, in the case of an isolated animal. I'd be just as interested in hearing about anyone who tried but failed to get a bovine to do this (as well as why they tried!). Or any ideas on why it should be possible, or impossible to train a cow to moo. (perhaps something more interesting than "cow is too dumb to learn this") Also anything of the sort tried with sheep, goats or horses would be of interest. This might sound like an odd kind of request for information, but I'm seriously interested in the answer. Honest! I figure that if such a thing can be done, has ever been done, or has been tried, someone on this list has probably heard of it. If nobody knows the answer, I may even have to try it myself! Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 8-JUL-1998 11:49:42.20 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Strange Question > Also anything of the sort tried with sheep, goats or horses would be of > interest. Jon Are you only interested in vocalizations, as in teaching a horse to neigh on command? Or will any other arbitrary eliciting stimulus triggers response which results in reward do? Some years ago we trained horses to push a door open that had the "correct" picture on it for a small reward of sweet feed. There were two "wrong" choices and one "right" choice, all of which got constantly reshuffled as to position. The three horses we used learned a rather large repertoire of "right" and "wrong" pictures. Shaorn Crowell-Davis ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 8-JUL-1998 13:44:08.63 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "'Jon Watts'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: Strange Question I am sure the 'Clickomanes' can reinforce just about any behaviour at all from ear flapping to mooing. However, trawling through Karen Pryor On Behavior I get the impression that vocalisations in any species are undesirable and not rewarded. Perhaps this is because they make poor 'theatre' compared with species typical cavortings. -----Original Message----- From: Jon Watts [SMTP:wattsjon@duke.usask.ca] Sent: 08 July 1998 16:34 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Strange Question Hello folks, I've seen a lot of posts about dog training lately. I've got a serious question about cattle. Maybe some of you trainers might have heard of an answer to this one. Does anyone know of any case in which an individual bovine has been deliberately trained to vocalize on demand, as one might train a dog to do? (e.g. in response to a voice signal, clicker, flashing light etc.) I'm not asking whether a cow moos along with all the rest when something exciting happens, like a feed truck arriving, or whether you can apply pain, stress or deprive it of social contact or calf and induce vocalizing. I know the answers to those questions. What I would like to know is, can a cow voluntarily vocalize, while relatively unstressed, in response to a biologically arbitrary signal associated with a fairly trivial token reward? By "biologically arbitrary" I mean a signal having no inherently arousing connotations or adaptive significance, such as you might expect from a sudden whiff of predator odour, the roar of a mighty lion, or an electric shock, or the vocalization of a conspecific to whom it might be inclined to call in reply. Perhaps a click or beep or voice command to which the animal has habituated to the extent that it does not in itself cause any alarm or apparent startle reaction. By a trivial reward I mean a little bit of food or water, not something that has considerable intrinsic motivation value like access to a companion, in the case of an isolated animal. I'd be just as interested in hearing about anyone who tried but failed to get a bovine to do this (as well as why they tried!). Or any ideas on why it should be possible, or impossible to train a cow to moo. (perhaps something more interesting than "cow is too dumb to learn this") Also anything of the sort tried with sheep, goats or horses would be of interest. This might sound like an odd kind of request for information, but I'm seriously interested in the answer. Honest! I figure that if such a thing can be done, has ever been done, or has been tried, someone on this list has probably heard of it. If nobody knows the answer, I may even have to try it myself! Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"joan@meganet.net" 8-JUL-1998 18:29:38.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dog Training and Food Deprivation D.B. Cameron wrote: > I fail to understand how, if the trainer (owner) does not understand > how to communicate with a pet with some sort of social reinforcement > (stroke, kind word, etc.) how a bit of food makes any difference in > the effectiveness of either attempt at communication. Both food and > social reinforcements are primary reinforcers and, as such, should > have equal effects on the subject if applied equally. Hi. Sorry I don't know you name. That little bit of food can make an enormous difference in communication because most dogs are taught from earliest exposure to humans that many behaviors elicit those very special treats which are otherwise not available. Social reinforcement (petting, praise) happens very randomly, for no particular behavior most of the time. It is always available. People have far more difficulty withholding or grading praise or petting to make it a significant reinforcement for training. There are also many dogs who enjoy such an elevated status relative to their owners that these non food reinforcements mean little to them. I have often had to teach people to pick specific praise words and specific touching and pair them with the food that the dog considers primary so they can replace the constant use of food. > The difference, in my mind and experience, is that the food > trained dog is center for reinforcement on the food not the food giver. Certainly true if the handler doesn't use several reinforcers paired with the food, doesn't go to a variable schedule with the food soon enough and rewards constantly and inappropriately. The goal with food training is to condition behaviors utilizing food in the early learning stages. Once the behavior is in place and under stimulus control, the use of petting, praise, an occasional treat or nothing will work. > Alternatively, the socially rewarded subject is centered on the > rewarder. Would that it were so. And, perhaps this is the case if one is working in an area with no other strong reinforcers available (other dogs, anything that can be chased, important new smells, people who might have food, etc.) > Dogs do not often get sated on social reinforcement while > they certainly can and do become sated on food. I think that most pet dogs are constantly sated on social reinforcement from people and starved for social reinforcement from other dogs. Satiation with food in training is not likely if done right. I have trained many dogs - some of them to high levels of competitive obedience and in Schutzhund using minute bits of food. I am taking a break from training a 5 pound Yorkie to turn on a studio light switch for a movie - with pieces of hot dog. And, he ate all of his dinner today. Dogs love food. They will work for it, especially if it is a bit different from the daily fare. Why hold out? Asking a dog to perform complex tasks (like a sit/stay/recall) which consist of behaviors that they would not do in that situation otherwise, requires paying them big bucks until it is routine. Dogs are great opportunists. My dogs work for and are attached to me because I pet them, praise them, care for them and am the great hunter of hot dogs. > Conditioned reinforcers are certainly very effective for reinforcing > at a distance and for marking a precise time in a sequence of behaviors. > However, they have a serious drawback in the context of this discussion > in that teaching and using conditioned reinforcers requires a trained > sensative (to the demands of very precise timing) trainer. Since you > brought up the problems of pet owners who have problems communicating > with their pets, I find it difficult to expect such owners to be > successful with the use of "clicker training". Well, you would have a hard time convincing my obedience class participants of this. They learn terrific timing within 2 sessions, have dogs focused on them and earning a "click" and go home knowing everything any dog needs to AND with a happy attitude to boot. Three years ago I made the choice to go to this kind of training for pet owners because of the issue with timing. Traditional training uses correction. Owners have poor timing. When there is failure there is also damage to relationships. Clicker training does no harm to the relationship, ever if the owner totally messes it up (rare - they enjoy it). It gets the dog involved as an attentive, happy participant in the training game rather than a passive participant as is the case in traditional training. Expect more of owners - they will surprise you. Regards, Joan -- ______________________ Joan Weintraub mail to joan@meganet.net CompatiPup Canine Services Tiverton, RI / Newton, MA 401-625-5953 -- ______________________ Joan Weintraub mail to joan@meganet.net CompatiPup Canine Services Tiverton, RI / Newton, MA 401-625-5953 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 8-JUL-1998 18:54:41.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog training and food deprivation. Reply to message from lynfra@globalnet.co.uk of Tue, 07 Jul > > >> >> I fail to understand how, if the trainer (owner) does not understand >>how to communicate with a pet with some sort of social reinforcement >>(stroke, kind word, etc.) how a bit of food makes any difference in >>the effectiveness of either attempt at communication. Both food and >>social reinforcements are primary reinforcers and, as such, should >>have equal effects on the subject if applied equally. >> The difference, in my mind and experience, is that the food >>trained dog is center for reinforcement on the food not the food giver. >>Alternatively, the socially rewarded subject is centered on the >>rewarder. Dogs do not often get sated on social reinforcement while >>they certainly can and do become sated on food. > > > I get a lot of puppy owners coming to me for help with training who have >young pups who take NO notice of them at all! They have no hope unless they >use food as a reinforcer---rightly or wrongly it works---who cares that the >dog is focused on the food, at least it is focused on or around the owner >and not half a mile down the field!!!! As for rescue dogs, often they >couldn't care less about the new owner (not always, sometimes it works the >other way!), for those dogs food is also the answer. I have no problem with STARTING dogs on food reinforcement. As you say, we need to get their attention in any way possible. But to not wean them off of food reinforcement in fairly short order results in disaster for problem dogs. That is, garden-variety dogs will survive a lot of mal-training, but problem dogs need the best to survive (I mean that literally. The dogs I refer to commonly end up on death row because they become aggressive to owners and/or severely unruly.) The net is that these problem dogs must be weaned off of food to social reward so that they recognize that the only way for them to get what they want and need is to give the owner what they want and need . . . first. Strokes and kind words >mean nothing to the dog because they get them all the time for >free!----- Exactly the problem. It is very simple to teach these owners a No Free Lunch (NFL) program. It is so very simple and the results are so quick and obvious that the owners are properly reinforced and they stay with the program very well. they DO get sated on them. On the contrary, these dogs do NOT get sated on social reinforcement. The problem is that they (the dogs) become hooked on social reinforcement and begin to demand it more and more. These dogs, unless controlled with leadership and NFL often become aggressive to their owners and unruly, often to extreme. If the owners ignored the dogs and only >reacted during training it would work well---as it often does in kenneled >working dogs, but not for pet owners. Why not pet owners? If you can teach them the intricacies of secondary reinforcers, you can certainly teach them NFL and effective ignoring. > > As for clickers I have some people using them for certain things and they >are working well, they are another tool to be used with food, toys and praise! > No problem with "clicker training", just that it is advanced training, not primary training. We do not teach kids to read before we teach them the alphabet. > B.T.W. my dogs all work for toys and praise and me except for the latest >rescue who didn't know I existed till I used food---8mths later she is just >beginning to enjoy fuss, but to begin with she had to work for even a >stroke---nothing for free, VERY hard to do and impossible in a family with a >pet dog Wrong. See above. >lynn > > > P.S. To those who are bored with seeing my repeated posts on this subject, I am a bit embarrassed myself. The problem is that these subjects are very close to my professional heart and I cannot resist attempting to correct what I see, almost daily, as a training disaster: Continuous, unweaned food-oriented training. -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 8-JUL-1998 19:07:47.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Clomicalm Reply to message from boris@lds.co.uk of Tue, 07 Jul > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >--Boundary_(ID_iE0Fj3AnAnhdCGqKp9m/GA) >Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > >I am at the moment indulging in a fair amount of animal handling at a >veterinarian hospital and have come across a drug called Clomicalm, >clomipramine hydrochloride. This treatment seems to offer the reward of >"changing behaviour for the better" ( in terms of separation anxiety). >Does anyone know anything about this drug? Is there any papers on the use >of this drug? ( if so could somebody e-mail it to me). >Has anybody got any thoughts on the positive use of this drug or (dare I >say) is it just drug company related funding at its best. > > My practice was one of the field trial centers for "Clomicalm". This is not just a smoke and mirrors drug as you seem to suggest. Clomipramine has been used for some time to aid in the treatment of separation anxiety (and other anxiety problems) with reliable results. The special things about "Clomicalm" are that it is the first psychoactive drug cleared by the FDA specifically for veterinary use. Also, it comes in a dose form that is more easily used for pet sized patients. In my experience, it is an excellent aid to treatment of separation anxiety. -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"zanella@pilot.msu.edu" "Dr. Adroaldo J. Zanella" 8-JUL-1998 20:16:20.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Sucking & Suckling x heat stress Hi, I am looking for references on the effects of "season" (temperature mainly) on the suckling behavior of piglets. Can someone help me ? Thanks. Adroaldo Dr. Adroaldo Jos=E9 Zanella Assistant Professor Ethology and Environmental Physiology Department of Animal Science Michigan State University Anthony Hall, East Lansing , MI 48824 =46ax: (517) 353 1699 Phone: (517) 432 4134 From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 8-JUL-1998 23:49:31.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Clomicalm For those interested, Clomipramine is called "Anafranil" when given to humans and is one of a family of drugs called the tricyclic antidepressants. However, in humans, it is typically used for the treatment of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) rather than depression. Dr. P Dog Training Site - http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm ----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- ----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- ----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- ----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- ----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- -----Original Message----- From: aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu [mailto:aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu] Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 8:08 PM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Clomicalm Reply to message from boris@lds.co.uk of Tue, 07 Jul >I am at the moment indulging in a fair amount of animal handling at a >veterinarian hospital and have come across a drug called Clomicalm, >clomipramine hydrochloride. This treatment seems to offer the reward of >"changing behaviour for the better" ( in terms of separation anxiety). >Does anyone know anything about this drug? Is there any papers on the use >of this drug? ( if so could somebody e-mail it to me). >Has anybody got any thoughts on the positive use of this drug or (dare I >say) is it just drug company related funding at its best. My practice was one of the field trial centers for "Clomicalm". This is not just a smoke and mirrors drug as you seem to suggest. Clomipramine has been used for some time to aid in the treatment of separation anxiety (and other anxiety problems) with reliable results. The special things about "Clomicalm" are that it is the first psychoactive drug cleared by the FDA specifically for veterinary use. Also, it comes in a dose form that is more easily used for pet sized patients. In my experience, it is an excellent aid to treatment of separation anxiety. ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"helen.hirt@fibl.ch" "helen hirt" 9-JUL-1998 06:03:03.84 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: new on list Hello to everyone, I am a zoolgist/ethologist working on farm animal behaviour. The last 5 years I did scientific research on fattening turkeys for the Swiss Federal Vereinary Office (FVO) in Zollikofen. Last week I started a new job at the Research Institute of Organic Agriculture in Frick, Switzerland. At the moment I am starting a research project with laying hens. looking forward to the discussions -- ------------------------------------------------------- Helen Hirt Forschungsinstitut für biologischen Landbau FiBL Ackerstrasse Postfach CH-5070 Frick Tel: 0041 62 865 72 72 Fax: 0041 62 865 72 73 Email: helen.hirt@fibl.ch Homepage: http://www.fibl.ch From: IN%"GFlannigan@infonet.tufts.edu" 9-JUL-1998 07:05:29.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: re:food training Hello all: I've been lurking and enjoying the conversations on food training. I'm a veterinary behaviorist but also have been teaching obedience for a long time (18 years). So I have a fair bit of experience with food-training, praise- based training and behavior consultation. I personally train most adult dogs without food mostly because I don't enjoy using food (plasitic bags, sticky fingers). I do occasionally bring it out to increase motivation especially if I have been hard on corrections and I have used it to teach my own dog tracking. I use food (plus praise of course) to teach young puppies and have instructed a few years of puppy classes. The major advantage to food is that you can get your hands off the dog. The food can be used as a lure so that you don't have to force a dog into a position. At first the dog is confused, not knowing exactly what you want. But eventually they get the point. Learning is quick and fun for the dog. Most young puppies crumble under the continual stress of pushing their rear end down (sit) or being directed around on a leash. The non-food methods depend on a correction to get them into a position followed by praise. Food training and praise-alone based training both require a knowledgable trainer to guide the person. I find most people in a class situation learn to use food as a lure and a reward much easier than praise. Most men for instance believe that a "good dog" is praise even if it is in a low tone. No matter how many times you tell them that they have to raise the inflection of their praise in order to get a tail wag (otherwise it isn't praise), they just don't get it. Most people are too embarrassed to use a high voice that praise requires and cannot get the correct timing. I agree that many people don't wean off the food early enough and tend use it as a crutch. I have had traditional people come to my puppy classes and are reluctant to use food. By the end of the third week or so, they don't want to give it up because it is so easy and effective. I almost have to pry it out of their hands so that they can see that the puppy knows the command. But as an instructor, that is what I'm there for. In behavior consultation, I often advise the use food training and clicker- training for my clients. Most of the people who have dominant dogs have tried traditional praise based training and don't like it. They are nice people and don't like to treat their dog harshly. I also use the "no free lunch", "working for a living", "deference" protocol (or what ever you want to call it). Yes it is strict and the dog must follow a command before it eats, gets attention, goes outside or whatever. But isn't that what you are asking for when you use food. Food, praise, touch are all primary reiforces and are all therefore teaching tools. It allows the owners of aggressive dogs to respond to commands without having to push or pull on them which forces these dominant dogs to raise a lip or growl. Food training for me is a component of the protocol. I have gone on may more than I should have. I hope you have gotten this far. By the way, I have done research with farm animals too not just these silly companion animals (for the applied ethology purists). Gerry Flannigan Tufts University From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 9-JUL-1998 08:09:01.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Re:Clomicalm I will inflict just one more post on you because this topic draws together just about everything I have tried to share with you from hedony through drug therapy to 'fuzzy signals'. But first some Shakespeare (yes I have had a post saying that the author has missed the Classical input!) In his second Age of Man ( As You Like It II, vii, 139):- And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel And shining morning face, creeping like snail Unwillingly to school. Separation anxiety is a messy group of childhood problems which may include school refusal. It is very significant that 'cases school phobia have been reported as a side-effect of haloperidol.' (Keltner and Folks, Psychotropic Drugs, Mosby, 1997, p 356). A drug that abolishes reward (being a dopamine antagonist) isn't going to be helpful to a child who already finds school scary and very unrewarding. Just as the drug abolishes 'conditioned place preference' in rats (see Carlson, Physiology of Behavior, p 517-518 Ed.4.) The dog is not a child so we must be a little selective here. Off the relevant pages in Kaplan and Sadock, Synopsis of Psychiatry, Ed. 7, pp 1104-1107, I would take:- 'The most common anxiety disorder that coexists with separation anxiety disorder is specific phobia.' 'Symptoms emerge when separation from an important parent figure becomes necessary.' and 'They frequently experience gastrointestinal symptoms of nausea, vomiting and stomach aches and have pains in various parts of the body, sore throats, and flu-like symptoms. In older children, typical cardiovascular and respiratory symptoms of palpitations, dizziness, faintness and strangulation are reported.' And in my experience the picture in the 'separated' dog is very similar. The problem being the disruption of the bond between the dog and its owner which is a state of acute non-reward, dysphoria, or gut wrenching misery with the potential to lead to depression or violent frustration according to the 'temperament' of the sufferer. They may also develop acute specific phobia. The physical symptoms of distress in the dog are similar to those of withdrawal from opiates in the human. A number of papers by Jaak Panksepp et al investigating the addictive nature of bonding and the withdrawal nature of separation exist. His work is summarised in:- Ann N Y Acad Sci 1997 Jan 15;807:78-100 Brain systems for the mediation of social separation-distress and social-reward. Evolutionary antecedents and neuropeptide intermediaries. Panksepp J, Nelson E, Bekkedal M Department of Psychology, Bowling Green State University, Ohio 43402, USA. History supports the opioid mediation of the bonding experience. Up until the turn of this century morphine in a multitude of potions was retailed from grocers and chemists for the placation of fractious infants. Animal experiments have demonstrated that distress calling in a number of species can be alleviated by morphine. Heroin is still used to soothe the acute distress of prematurely born infants who must endure enforced isolation. The merits of anti-depressant drugs with serotonin activity and the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI's) lie in their ability to buffer against panic and to bring about feelings of well-being or contentment which countervail the dysphoria of depression and frustration. The evident success of drugs like clomipramine and fluoxetine in reducing the distress of unwillingly isolated dogs must provide a better opportunity to deal with the behavioural considerations. Just giving the drug is not enough. The dog has to learn to cope with periods away from its social companions. The traditional prescription is to 'Cool the Bond'. But trying to ignore the dog or be 'less attentive' or 'less tactile' often seems to fail. It can be argued that this is due to the rather 'fuzzy' nature of the semiology. It may be difficult for the dog to work out what is happening and it may simply try harder to achieve its customary (habitual) level of gratification due to touch or proximity. The dog fares no better than the children trying to defer eating the sweets without some cue or signal which clearly announces 'forget it' or 'wait until the signal changes'. To this end periods of 'time out' in which the dog is ignored, left, not included (even though it is present!) must be constructed and contingent upon a CLEAR SIGNAL. Variations on Karen Pryor's celebrated 'towel on the back door' have been employed. It often entails tethering the dog into a corner of the room as it may simply grab the owners attention or contact forcibly thus nullifying the process. Huge difficulties surround this in some families where neck braces and mummiform bandaging would be needed to prevent the peeking and signalling of the less steely minded members! In the most desperate cases where the neighbours have been 'losing their marbles' whilst the owners lose their 'meubles' success has been achieved as the dog learns that when the 'flag' is up he is on his own and when it comes down (and only then) he is once again available for socializing. As ever the owners who are likely to be very good at this level of discipline and organisation are exactly the type of people who probably would not have had the problem in the first place. Robin From: IN%"comden@vet.purdue.edu" "Catherine A Comden" 9-JUL-1998 11:34:14.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog Training and Food Deprivation Hi everyone! Joan makes a very strong case here. I believe as she does, and have had much the same experience, teaching owners to use the clicker. She is right, and clicker training TEACHES the owners to mark a behavior much more clearly (for the dog), and in my opinion, much faster (for the owner) than any other type of reinforcement. Obviously, the clicker is a secondary reinforcment, serving the purpose of effectively marking the behavior which is being rewarded. Often, I have two family members working together, one clicking, and one feeding the treat. This teaches them to: 1) clearly define the target behavior and 2)get "quick" about marking the behavior. Because the primary reinforcer comes later, the communication (the click) is able to occur at a more precise moment, and everyone learns faster! Most novice trainers "get it" within one or 2 sessions, as Joan also noted. The primary reinforcement may be food or touch, or a toy, or the opportunity to walk out the front door. But for teaching a new behavior, there is simply no other reinforcement which will *keep* a dog interested and motivated more effectively than small bits of food. Food can be varied (liver, tortellini, cheese, biscuit, jerky, cheezeits, apples, carrots, crushed ice.. get creative!), to keep interest levels high, food disappears, so it can be earned again, right away (much to the enjoyment of the dog!) I have been a "lurker" for about a month, so let me give a little background, so you know who I am. I have been training dogs seriously for 20 years, professionally for 8 years. I used to be a "social reinforcement only" trainer. I can remember actually ridiculing food-trainers. I used to teach "Pack Theory" as a basis for all training. Not any more! There is a better way. I have the pleasure, currently, of working with Dr. Andrew Luescher, who has influenced my philosophies, as has Patty Ruzzo, Leslie Nelson, Gary Wilkes, Ted Turner, Jean Donaldson (READ _The_Culture_Clash_ by her!!!) Ian Dunbar, and others in the pet dog training world. These people are in the trenches, so to speak, and while not "scientists", have valuable insight to add to discussions such as these. Because of these people, and through my own experience with dogs and owners, now I see that dogs are dogs. They do not have some hidden agenda whereby they are trying to usurp our authority. They are the greatest opportunists around and simply need to be shown how to perform the behaviors which we want. It is our responsibility to make sure that *only* the behaviors we want will have the greatest payoff available. If behavior we don't want doesn't pay-off, then the dog will quit doing that. If we show the dog what TO DO, than the dog will do THAT, so long as it pays off. Whatever we use as the reinforcer, all that matters is that it is reinforcing for THAT dog, in THAT situation. Somebody made a comment about getting a dog to leave a highly desirable, unwanted event (like chasing a bunny, or walking away from a bitch in season)... the comment was that the dog wouldn't do that for a food treat. If that is the case, then I'd say the dog wasn't properly trained. My dogs (all 3) call-off very nicely from chasing bunnies (the highlight of recreation, for them) on a regular basis. They do it, and HAPPILY, because they know that, from the moment I say "Leave it", they never get what they were after (because I set up controlled situations with other desirables that I CAN control to train the behavior), and that I ALWAYS PAY OFF the recall behavior. This takes time and effort, yes, but is it possible. thanks for reading my lengthy, first post.. now I'll go lurk some more! *Catherine At 08:32 PM 7/8/98 -0400, joan wrote: >D.B. Cameron wrote: > >> I fail to understand how, if the trainer (owner) does not understand >> how to communicate with a pet with some sort of social reinforcement >> (stroke, kind word, etc.) how a bit of food makes any difference in >> the effectiveness of either attempt at communication. Both food and >> social reinforcements are primary reinforcers and, as such, should >> have equal effects on the subject if applied equally. > >Hi. Sorry I don't know you name. That little bit of food can make an >enormous >difference in communication because most dogs are taught from earliest >exposure >to humans that many behaviors elicit those very special treats which are > >otherwise not available. Social reinforcement (petting, praise) happens >very >randomly, for no particular behavior most of the time. It is always >available. >People have far more difficulty withholding or grading praise or petting >to make >it a significant reinforcement for training. There are also many dogs >who enjoy >such an elevated status relative to their owners that these non food >reinforcements mean little to them. I have often had to teach people to >pick >specific praise words and specific touching and pair them with the food >that the >dog considers primary so they can replace the constant use of food. > >> The difference, in my mind and experience, is that the food >> trained dog is center for reinforcement on the food not the food >giver. > >Certainly true if the handler doesn't use several reinforcers paired >with the >food, doesn't go to a variable schedule with the food soon enough and >rewards >constantly and inappropriately. The goal with food training is to >condition >behaviors utilizing food in the early learning stages. Once the behavior >is in >place and under stimulus control, the use of petting, praise, an >occasional treat >or nothing will work. > >> Alternatively, the socially rewarded subject is centered on the >> rewarder. > >Would that it were so. And, perhaps this is the case if one is working >in an area >with no other strong reinforcers available (other dogs, anything that >can be >chased, important new smells, people who might have food, etc.) > >> Dogs do not often get sated on social reinforcement while >> they certainly can and do become sated on food. > >I think that most pet dogs are constantly sated on social reinforcement >from >people and starved for social reinforcement from other dogs. Satiation >with food >in training is not likely if done right. I have trained many dogs - some >of them >to high levels of competitive obedience and in Schutzhund using minute >bits of >food. I am taking a break from training a 5 pound Yorkie to turn on a >studio >light switch for a movie - with pieces of hot dog. And, he ate all of >his dinner >today. Dogs love food. They will work for it, especially if it is a bit >different >from the daily fare. Why hold out? Asking a dog to perform complex >tasks (like a >sit/stay/recall) which consist of behaviors that they would not do in >that >situation otherwise, requires paying them big bucks until it is routine. >Dogs are >great opportunists. My dogs work for and are attached to me because I >pet them, >praise them, care for them and am the great hunter of hot dogs. > >> Conditioned reinforcers are certainly very effective for >reinforcing >> at a distance and for marking a precise time in a sequence of >behaviors. >> However, they have a serious drawback in the context of this >discussion >> in that teaching and using conditioned reinforcers requires a trained >> sensative (to the demands of very precise timing) trainer. Since you >> brought up the problems of pet owners who have problems communicating >> with their pets, I find it difficult to expect such owners to be >> successful with the use of "clicker training". > >Well, you would have a hard time convincing my obedience class >participants of >this. They learn terrific timing within 2 sessions, have dogs focused on >them and >earning a "click" and go home knowing everything any dog needs to AND >with a >happy attitude to boot. Three years ago I made the choice to go to this >kind of >training for pet owners because of the issue with timing. Traditional >training >uses correction. Owners have poor timing. When there is failure there is >also >damage to relationships. Clicker training does no harm to the >relationship, ever >if the owner totally messes it up (rare - they enjoy it). It gets the >dog >involved as an attentive, happy participant in the training game rather >than a >passive participant as is the case in traditional training. Expect more >of owners >- they will surprise you. Regards, Joan >-- >______________________ >Joan Weintraub >mail to joan@meganet.net >CompatiPup Canine Services >Tiverton, RI / Newton, MA >401-625-5953 > > > >-- >______________________ >Joan Weintraub >mail to joan@meganet.net >CompatiPup Canine Services >Tiverton, RI / Newton, MA >401-625-5953 > > > > Catherine Comden, B.A. Animal Behavior Technologist Purdue University comden@vet.purdue.edu (765)494-8154 From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 9-JUL-1998 11:44:11.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group" CC: Subj: clomipramine I had understood clomipramine ( and tricyclic antidepressants in general) in humans to have serious and potentially lethal side effects. Particularly reflex tachycardia. Chris rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ From: IN%"louiser@clara.net" "Louise Rogers" 9-JUL-1998 12:42:01.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fw: Clomicalm -----Original Message----- From: Louise Rogers To: appleby Date: 08 July 1998 18:20 Subject: Re: Clomicalm >Hi, >I'm a vet nurse from Sevenoaks, with an 9yr old collie, who is going senile >( polydipsia, polyuria - with no pathological basis, chewing things etc. She >has been on both Vivitonin, and Fitergol both of which controlled the PD/PU, >but had little effect on her behaviour. After she decided to chew a 6 foot >U/V light bulb 3 weeks ago, things were getting decidely dodgy..... and the >literature regarding Clomicalm and Selgian ( I'll have to double check the >name!!) was around the practice. We started her on Clomicalm, although we >didn't have much hope, as she does not suffer from "pure" seperation >anxiety. The results have been ASTOUNDING........., she does not even >disturb the bed now, and really is much happier! The PD/PU has not come >back, despite being off Fitergol ( her last treatment). Of course this is >not actually the licenced use of Clomicalm, and we will have to keep in >touch with drug company to see what to after 3 months ( it is usually given >as a fixed course) But so far so good, and for someone who was rapidly >running out of ideas, a life saver! I too was apprehensive, the garb from >the company sounds too good to be true.......but seeing is believing! ( she >is also on the lowest dose 1mg/kg bid) >Keep in touch Loops ( and the new calmer Pague!) > From: IN%"comden@vet.purdue.edu" "Catherine A Comden" 9-JUL-1998 13:14:32.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog Training and Food Deprivation Thanks, Kathy, for your support Most dogs like SOMETHING or another.. so I experiment with a variety of treats till I find one they like. Throw out personal assumptions about what a dog "should" like, and be creative! Next, or maybe even initially, I make sure the dog is not otherwise stressed in the training environment. Perhaps try a differnt location, or give the dog time to "adjust" to the training area before attempting to train. If the dog is truely not interested in any food and is happy about being there, then I will try a variety of toys (Patty Ruzzo has a whippet who isn't "into" food, but loves to work for the chance to chase a bunny toy on a string!) The only problem with toys, is that taking away the toy is a necessary part of the process, in order to get the dog to repeat the behavior, in the initial learning phase. Some dogs simply prefer social reinforcement, a touch or a chance to "dance around" with their owner, and we will use that, if that is all the dog will work for. I simply prefer a discrete reinforcer like a food treat. So much for going back to "lurking!" :-) Thanks for the opportunity to clarify! At 02:13 PM 7/9/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-07-09 13:45:57 EDT, you write: > ><< Joan makes a very strong case here. I believe as she does, and have had > much the same experience, teaching owners to use the clicker. >> > >Catherine, > >I appreciated your comments, but what do you do when you work with a dog who >has absolutely no food motivation? (I am asking this seriously, not as a >challenge to your comments). > >Kathy Hughes > > Catherine Comden, B.A. Animal Behavior Technologist Purdue University comden@vet.purdue.edu (765)494-8154 From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 9-JUL-1998 21:14:46.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: Clomicalm Chris, While it is true that the tricyclic antidepressants are not the safest drugs around, they are a lot safer than there predecessors the MonoAmine Oxidase (MAO) inhibitors. The tricyclic antidepressants have narrow margins of safety and effectiveness. Common side effects include grogginess, headache, constipation and weight gain. However, the antidepressant of choice these days for humans is the Specific Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRI's) such as Prozac. These are safer than all of the older antidepressants & easier to tolerate. Take care, Dr. P Dog Training Site - http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm ----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- ----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- ----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- ----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- ----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- -----Original Message----- From: Chris Rutt [mailto:rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 3:28 AM To: Plonsky, Mark Subject: Re: Clomicalm I had understood clomipramine ( and tricyclic antidepressants in general) in humans to have serious and potentially lethal side effects. Particularly reflex tachycardia. Chris rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ From: IN%"ivoryhaven@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" 9-JUL-1998 21:45:14.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Strange Question Some elephants will vocalize by request. A growl or a trumpet (Asian or African) or a "chirp" (Asian elephant). Though they often decide not to respond unless the treat is very special (ie an apple instead of a carrot) or perhaps they are just not in the mood (or if too may strangers are around) and no amount of treats will change that. Other elephants will alwways respond to a treat. Elephants respond very well to positive reward in the form of a treat. While the treat is desirable they will eventually respond with out the reward or with just a verbal reward in the form of "good" (or whatever word has been used to express this). Adversive stimulus also works with elephants. I think this is the removal of a stimulus. Of interest: I have seen elephants who will respond to multiple languages for the same "commands". The tone of the voice does not matter. For example there are 2 elephants I know of who respond to German, Spanish, French and English. Also a though a clicker is great with dogs and birds it is not necessary with elephants since they respond well to spoken cues. And the verbal response is an adequate bridge. Regards, Sheree Walters From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 10-JUL-1998 00:40:13.62 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Magic cat spray? Please can someone help with feed back on a pharmaceutical product called Feliway. It is new on our market and the manufacturers are claiming a 95% success rate in the treatment of feline spraying and furniture destruction. It appears to be pheromone based and is a contact spray applied to furnishings and not the cat. I would be most grateful to hear from anyone who has actually used this product or has some input to offer. Thank you in anticipation Glynne From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 10-JUL-1998 06:36:28.75 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Magic cat spray? In a message dated 98-07-10 02:47:37 EDT, you write: << Please can someone help with feed back on a pharmaceutical product called Feliway. It is new on our market and the manufacturers are claiming a 95% success rate in the treatment of feline spraying and furniture destruction. It appears to be pheromone based and is a contact spray applied to furnishings and not the cat. I would be most grateful to hear from anyone who has actually used this product or has some input to offer. >> Here in the United States, I have used the product with success in many cases. While it will not work in all cases, it is another treatment option. I use it in conjuction with environmental and behavior treatment. I have had success ranging from cessation of spraying, to a decrease in frequencyand naturally some cases where it did no good at all. I feel that it often can help and/or resolve the problem without the use of drugs. Like anything else, it can fail, but gives us more choices. Hope that helps. Debbie Horwitz DVM, DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations St. Louis, Missouri From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 10-JUL-1998 06:51:21.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: prozac Literature that I have read re: use of prozac (or similar serotonin enhancers) for dogs was correlated with an increase in aggression to conspecifics and humans. Debdmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"weldk@exchange.nih.gov" "Katherine Weld" 10-JUL-1998 07:19:09.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: prozac and other SSRIs I would like a reference for that article Deborah McWilliams spoke of showing prozac increasing aggression in dogs. I found the opposite in a study I conducted on the effect of the SSRI sertraline hydrochloride on aggression exhibited by adult male rhesus monkeys when they are introduced to one another. SERT reduced aggression when males were introduced. This manuscript is being submitted soon. Katherine P. Weld, M.S., Ph.D. Laboratory of Clinical Studies, NIAAA NIH Animal Center Building 112 Room 205 Poolesville, MD 20837 From: IN%"jfairban@arches.uga.edu" "Julie Annette Fairbank" 10-JUL-1998 07:23:39.14 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction Hi! Just a quick introduction: I am currently working at University of Georgia at the College of Veterinary Medicine in the Poultry Diagnostic and Research Center. I graduated from VA Tech with a BS in Biology and from Winthrop University with an MS in Biology. I am about to start a DVM program (in 6 weeks!!!) here at the University of Georgia. I am interested in animal behavior so I thought I would join the discussion network to learn a thing or two about ethology. I am looking forward to reading some insightful discussions. -- Julie A Fairbank College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia e-mail:jfairban@arches.uga.edu From: IN%"tthomas@eoah.com" "Teri Thomas" 10-JUL-1998 07:33:36.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology list" CC: Subj: Aggressive Borzoi This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_QEgv7+C+/cwH80MdlmdHZQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable To list members, Hi! I'm Teri Thomas from East Orlando Animal Hospital & I just joined = the list. I am an Obedience Instructor and I also assist clients with = behavior problems with their dogs and cats. Recently I had a = conversation with a client about her 1 1/2 year old Borzoi who is = aggressive intermittently. He bit someone last week and the last = incident was over 1 year ago. The bite comes without warning and only = when the face or head is handled. But sometimes the face and head can be = handled with no aggressive results. This dogs father was known to be = quite aggressive on a daily basis. I have not worked with a Borzoi = before but I know they are known to be quite docile in nature. Please = reply if you have ever experienced a similar situation. Thanks! Teri T. --Boundary_(ID_QEgv7+C+/cwH80MdlmdHZQ) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
To list members,
 
Hi! I'm Teri Thomas from East = Orlando Animal=20 Hospital & I just joined the list. I am an Obedience Instructor and = I also=20 assist clients with behavior problems with their dogs and cats. Recently = I had a=20 conversation with a client about her 1 1/2 year old Borzoi who is = aggressive=20 intermittently. He bit someone last week and the last incident was over = 1 year=20 ago. The bite comes without warning and only when the face or head is = handled.=20 But sometimes the face and head can be handled with no aggressive = results. This=20 dogs father was known to be quite aggressive on a daily basis. I have = not worked=20 with a Borzoi before but I know they are known to be quite docile in = nature.=20 Please reply if you have ever experienced a similar situation. Thanks! = Teri=20 T.
--Boundary_(ID_QEgv7+C+/cwH80MdlmdHZQ)-- From: IN%"comden@vet.purdue.edu" "Catherine A Comden" 10-JUL-1998 08:56:11.56 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Aggressive Borzoi Hi Teri, welcome to the list. I have been a professional dog trainer/ obedience instructor, etc. for about 8 years. Currently I am working with Dr. Luescher, a veterinary behaviorist at Purdue University. I used to try and handle aggression cases, when I was a trainer, because I knew no one else in my area (when I lived in Montana) would help these people. I have learned so much recently, that now I would hesitate to begin working with an aggressive dog without a thorough workup by a veterinary behaviorist. Even what appears to be "simple aggression" isn't simple. Perhaps someone on this list knows a veterinary behaviorist in your area? Best, Catherine At 09:35 AM 7/10/98 -0400, you wrote: > To list members, & I just joined the list. I am an Obedience >Instructor and I also assist clients with behavior problems with their >dogs and cats. Recently I had a conversation with a client about her 1 1/2 >year old Borzoi who is aggressive intermittently. He bit someone last week >and the last incident was over 1 year ago. The bite comes without warning >and only when the face or head is handled. But sometimes the face and head >can be handled with no aggressive results. This dogs father was known to >be quite aggressive on a daily basis. I have not worked with a Borzoi >before but I know they are known to be quite docile in nature. Please >reply if you have ever experienced a similar situation. Thanks! Teri T. Catherine Comden, B.A. Animal Behavior Technologist Purdue University comden@vet.purdue.edu (765)494-8154 From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 10-JUL-1998 11:25:49.01 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group", IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" CC: Subj: RE: Clomicalm Thanks for the comments Mark One further point - over here SSRIs are not licensed for veterinary use. Are they on your side of the puddle? Best wishes Chris rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ ---------- > From: Plonsky, Mark > To: 'applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca' > Subject: RE: Clomicalm > Date: 10 July 1998 04:14 > > Chris, > > While it is true that the tricyclic antidepressants are not the safest drugs > around, they are a lot safer than there predecessors the MonoAmine Oxidase > (MAO) inhibitors. The tricyclic antidepressants have narrow margins of > safety and effectiveness. Common side effects include grogginess, headache, > constipation and weight gain. However, the antidepressant of choice these > days for humans is the Specific Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRI's) such > as Prozac. These are safer than all of the older antidepressants & easier > to tolerate. > > Take care, > Dr. P > Dog Training Site - http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm > ----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- > ----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- > ----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- > ----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- > ----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Rutt [mailto:rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk] > Sent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 3:28 AM > To: Plonsky, Mark > Subject: Re: Clomicalm > > I had understood clomipramine ( and tricyclic antidepressants in > general) in humans to have serious and potentially lethal side > effects. Particularly reflex tachycardia. > > Chris > rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk > http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 10-JUL-1998 14:29:13.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: prozac Dear Robin: Some good points. I will check my files for the reference on the prozac article. There have been incidents of increased aggressive behaviour in humans taking prozac but it has been reported as atypical behaviour only. The article that I read (reporting some increase in aggression in dogs on prozac) was using the data as a caveat re: use of "human" meds on other species and assuming it will have the same effect. Deb ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Robin Walker To: 'Deborah McWilliams' Subject: RE: prozac Date sent: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:10:24 +0100 Dear Deborah, I think I have written more than enough for a while! However here are some thoughts on the subject Although drugs of the Prozac type are usually 'serenic' or calming they can be 'hedonic' or rewarding. An individual who finds violence very rewarding may enjoy it even more on an SSRI. The thing to remember is that the results of serotonin enhancement depend very much on how much serotonin the organism actually produces. This can depend on synthesis from tryptophan. How much is in the diet and the vitamin B 6 in the diet. Efficient brain uptake also is influenced by the carbohydrate in the diet and insulin function. I have seen a small number of canine individuals where the effect of an SSRI has been to reduce appetite sharply. This obviously will reduce tryptophan uptake as well as everything else and the rapid fall in serotonin synthesis will be quite contrary to the effect desired. A rapid mood change toward 'dysphoria' could be a trigger for frustrative rage in certain spaniels of my acquaintance.! illustrative papers exist in the human field:- Here is a snippet from the Lancet. Although this relates to depression the same mechanism (I consider) will have quite a different effect in a cocker spaniel (e.g.) with a tendency to rage when thwarted. "DIETARY LINK TO DEPRESSION (pp 915-19) There is plenty of literature on the social aspects of depression but the biological cause for clinical depression remains hazy. In this week's issue of The Lancet, Dr Katy Smith and colleagues, from Oxford, UK, investigate the evidence that the neurotransmitter (a chemical messenger of the nervous system), serotonin, is involved in depression. In a study, done on 2 days, of 15 women prone to episodes of depression (but who were no longer on drug treatment for their depression) concentrations of serotonin in blood were altered by dietary control of tryptophan. Tryptophan is a component of proteins found in the diet and is a precursor of serotonin. Each woman was scored for depression and had a blood sample taken (to measure tryptophan in blood plasma) before and 7 hours after drinking a nutritionally balanced mixture or a mixture that contained no tryptophan. The women spent the 7 hours alone in the laboratory, resting, with neutral material to read. They scored themselves on a scale of mood each hour. The women were unaware of which mixture they were given first; on the second day, separated from the first by at least a week, the women were given the second mixture and the tests were repeated. After drinking the tryptophan-free mixture there was a 75% reduction in tryptophan in the blood plasma and ten women experienced temporary but clinically significant depressive symptoms. No changes in mood were seen after drinking the nutritionally balanced mixture. These findings support the evidence that serotonin deficiency is involved in causing depression. An interesting aspect of these findings is for those on diets or who have eating disorders, such as bulimia nervosa, because, as the authors conclude, "Even modest changes in serotonin activity of the type produced by dieting could have adverse effects in those vulnerable to clinical depression". The implications for dietary and pharmacological manipulations of serotonin levels for the treatment of depression are exciting. Contact: Dr Katy Smith, Psychopharmacology Research Unit, Littlemore Hospital, Oxford University, Oxford, UK; Tel +44 (0) 1865 778911 -----Original Message----- From: Deborah McWilliams [SMTP:DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA] Sent: 10 July 1998 13:51 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: prozac Literature that I have read re: use of prozac (or similar serotonin enhancers) for dogs was correlated with an increase in aggression to conspecifics and humans. Debdmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 10-JUL-1998 14:43:59.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group" CC: Subj: Fw: Strange Question > From: Chris Rutt > To: Sheree Walters > Subject: Re: Strange Question > Date: 10 July 1998 09:23 > > Interesting Sheree, but I guess I would want details of > experimental method before acceding to the polyglot abiities of > elephants > > Remember the horse that was hawked around the USA as a maths > genius that was picking up body language cues? > > I myself had a Newfoundland who was deliberately trained to > respond to really minimal postural signals (just finger > movements or head angles) for a wide range of required responses > - mainly for the entertainment of my continental friends. Those > that were naive on training were convinced the dog understood > spanish and french! If I myself had known the language he would > have convinced a Japanese or a ETI as well. > > Best wishes > > Chris > > rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk > http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ > ---------- > > From: Sheree Walters > > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > Subject: Re: Strange Question > > Date: 10 July 1998 04:47 > > > > Some elephants will vocalize by request. A growl or a trumpet > (Asian or > > African) or a "chirp" (Asian elephant). Though they often > decide not to > > respond unless the treat is very special (ie an apple instead > of a carrot) > > or perhaps they are just not in the mood (or if too may > strangers are > > around) and no amount of treats will change that. Other > elephants will > > alwways respond to a treat. Elephants respond very well to > positive reward > > in the form of a treat. While the treat is desirable they will > eventually > > respond with out the reward or with just a verbal reward in > the form of > > "good" (or whatever word has been used to express this). > Adversive stimulus > > also works with elephants. I think this is the removal of a > stimulus. Of > > interest: I have seen elephants who will respond to multiple > languages for > > the same "commands". The tone of the voice does not matter. > For example > > there are 2 elephants I know of who respond to German, > Spanish, French and > > English. Also a though a clicker is great with dogs and birds > it is not > > necessary with elephants since they respond well to spoken > cues. And the > > verbal response is an adequate bridge. > > > > Regards, > > Sheree Walters > > > > From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 10-JUL-1998 15:22:20.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Aggressive Borzoi Hi Terri- Welcome to the list. I agree with the other post-aggression is not simple and requires a behavioral work-up. There is a board certified veterinary behaviorist in Florida. Her name is Dr. Soraya Juarbe-Diaz and she may also be seeing cases at U of F in Gainesville. If you call there, they can probably put you in touch with her. Debbie Horwitz, DVM, DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations St. Louis, Missouri From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 10-JUL-1998 15:22:55.72 To: IN%"comden@vet.purdue.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Aggressive Borzoi In a message dated 98-07-10 11:00:52 EDT, you write: << I have been a professional dog trainer/ obedience instructor, etc. for about 8 years. Currently I am working with Dr. Luescher, a veterinary behaviorist at Purdue University. I used to try and handle aggression cases, when I was a trainer, because I knew no one else in my area (when I lived in Montana) would help these people. I have learned so much recently, that now I would hesitate to begin working with an aggressive dog without a thorough workup by a veterinary behaviorist. Even what appears to be "simple aggression" isn't simple. Perhaps someone on this list knows a veterinary behaviorist in your area? >> Thank you for your post. As a veterinary behaviorist I worry when people ask questions about aggressive problems. Aggression can be very dangerous and complex and I wonder if this board is really the place to try and handle these questions? I do understand when there is no help available, yet we need to be careful what advice we give without the appropriate information. And by the way, there is a veterinary behaviorist in Florida, Dr. Soraya Juarbe-Diaz and I have passed along her name. Debbie Horwitz, DVM, DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations St. Louis, Missouri From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 11-JUL-1998 05:32:28.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group", IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: Subj: RE: prozac I can't pin this down in literature, but I have a strong recollection that it was complete and sudden *withdrawal* of Prozac that resulted in aggressive behaviour in some patients. Weaning off gradually was strongly recommended. Chris ---------- > From: Deborah McWilliams > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: RE: prozac > Date: 10 July 1998 21:28 > > Dear Robin: > Some good points. I will check my files for the reference on the > prozac article. > There have been incidents of increased aggressive behaviour in > humans taking prozac but it has been reported as atypical behaviour > only. > The article that I read (reporting some increase in aggression > in dogs on prozac) was using the data as a caveat re: use of "human" > meds on other species and assuming it will have the same effect. > > Deb > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > > From: Robin Walker > To: 'Deborah McWilliams' > Subject: RE: prozac > Date sent: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:10:24 +0100 > > > Dear Deborah, > > I think I have written more than enough for a while! > > However here are some thoughts on the subject > > Although drugs of the Prozac type are usually 'serenic' or calming > they can be 'hedonic' or rewarding. An individual who finds violence > very rewarding may enjoy it even more on an SSRI. > > The thing to remember is that the results of serotonin enhancement > depend very much on how much serotonin the organism actually > produces. > > This can depend on synthesis from tryptophan. How much is in the diet > and the vitamin B 6 in the diet. Efficient brain uptake also is influenced > by the carbohydrate in the diet and insulin function. > > I have seen a small number of canine individuals where the effect of > an SSRI has been to reduce appetite sharply. This obviously will > reduce tryptophan uptake as well as everything else and the rapid > fall in serotonin synthesis will be quite contrary to the effect desired. > > A rapid mood change toward 'dysphoria' could be a trigger for > frustrative rage in certain spaniels of my acquaintance.! > illustrative papers exist in the human field:- > > Here is a snippet from the Lancet. Although this relates to > depression the same mechanism (I consider) will have quite > a different effect in a cocker spaniel (e.g.) with a tendency to > rage when thwarted. > > > "DIETARY LINK TO DEPRESSION (pp 915-19) > > There is plenty of literature on the social aspects of depression but > the biological cause for clinical depression remains hazy. In this week's > issue of The Lancet, Dr Katy Smith and colleagues, from Oxford, UK, > investigate the evidence that the neurotransmitter (a chemical messenger > of the nervous system), serotonin, is involved in depression. > > In a study, done on 2 days, of 15 women prone to episodes of depression > (but who were no longer on drug treatment for their depression) > concentrations of serotonin in blood were altered by dietary control > of tryptophan. Tryptophan is a component of proteins found in the diet > and is a precursor of serotonin. Each woman was scored for depression > and had a blood sample taken (to measure tryptophan in blood plasma) > before and 7 hours after drinking a nutritionally balanced mixture or a > mixture that contained no tryptophan. The women spent the 7 hours > alone in the laboratory, resting, with neutral material to read. They > scored themselves on a scale of mood each hour. The women were > unaware of which mixture they were given first; on the second day, > separated from the first by at least a week, the women were given the > second mixture and the tests were repeated. > > After drinking the tryptophan-free mixture there was a 75% reduction > in tryptophan in the blood plasma and ten women experienced temporary > but clinically significant depressive symptoms. No changes in mood > were seen after drinking the nutritionally balanced mixture. > > These findings support the evidence that serotonin deficiency is > involved in causing depression. An interesting aspect of these findings > is for those on diets or who have eating disorders, such as bulimia nervosa, > because, as the authors conclude, "Even modest changes in serotonin > activity of the type produced by dieting could have adverse effects in > those vulnerable to clinical depression". The implications for dietary > and pharmacological manipulations of serotonin levels for the treatment > of depression are exciting. > > Contact: Dr Katy Smith, Psychopharmacology Research Unit, > Littlemore Hospital, Oxford University, Oxford, UK; Tel +44 (0) 1865 778911 > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Deborah McWilliams [SMTP:DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA] > Sent: 10 July 1998 13:51 > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: RE: prozac > > Literature that I have read re: use of prozac (or similar serotonin > enhancers) for dogs was correlated with an increase in aggression to > conspecifics and humans. > > Debdmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 11-JUL-1998 06:09:33.61 To: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" "'rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied ethology Mail Group'", IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "'Deborah McWilliams'" CC: Subj: RE: prozac Well of course 'crashing' serotonin levels by abrupt withdrawal of the SSRI would be much the same as reducing the level by withholding tryptophan. The sharp downturn in hedony can result in either depression or frustration according to the temperament of the individual. The Pre Menstrual Tension story is all bound up in this. Robin -----Original Message----- From: Chris Rutt [SMTP:rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk] Sent: 11 July 1998 10:14 To: Applied ethology Mail Group; Deborah McWilliams Subject: Re: prozac I can't pin this down in literature, but I have a strong recollection that it was complete and sudden *withdrawal* of Prozac that resulted in aggressive behaviour in some patients. Weaning off gradually was strongly recommended. Chris ---------- Message Follows ------- > > From: Robin Walker > To: 'Deborah McWilliams' > Subject: RE: prozac > Date sent: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:10:24 +0100 > > > Dear Deborah, > > I think I have written more than enough for a while! > > However here are some thoughts on the subject > > Although drugs of the Prozac type are usually 'serenic' or calming > they can be 'hedonic' or rewarding. An individual who finds violence > very rewarding may enjoy it even more on an SSRI. > > The thing to remember is that the results of serotonin enhancement > depend very much on how much serotonin the organism actually > produces. > > This can depend on synthesis from tryptophan. How much is in the diet > and the vitamin B 6 in the diet. Efficient brain uptake also is influenced > by the carbohydrate in the diet and insulin function. > > I have seen a small number of canine individuals where the effect of > an SSRI has been to reduce appetite sharply. This obviously will > reduce tryptophan uptake as well as everything else and the rapid > fall in serotonin synthesis will be quite contrary to the effect desired. > > A rapid mood change toward 'dysphoria' could be a trigger for > frustrative rage in certain spaniels of my acquaintance.! > illustrative papers exist in the human field:- > > Here is a snippet from the Lancet. Although this relates to > depression the same mechanism (I consider) will have quite > a different effect in a cocker spaniel (e.g.) with a tendency to > rage when thwarted. > > > "DIETARY LINK TO DEPRESSION (pp 915-19) > > There is plenty of literature on the social aspects of depression but > the biological cause for clinical depression remains hazy. In this week's > issue of The Lancet, Dr Katy Smith and colleagues, from Oxford, UK, > investigate the evidence that the neurotransmitter (a chemical messenger > of the nervous system), serotonin, is involved in depression. > > In a study, done on 2 days, of 15 women prone to episodes of depression > (but who were no longer on drug treatment for their depression) > concentrations of serotonin in blood were altered by dietary control > of tryptophan. Tryptophan is a component of proteins found in the diet > and is a precursor of serotonin. Each woman was scored for depression > and had a blood sample taken (to measure tryptophan in blood plasma) > before and 7 hours after drinking a nutritionally balanced mixture or a > mixture that contained no tryptophan. The women spent the 7 hours > alone in the laboratory, resting, with neutral material to read. They > scored themselves on a scale of mood each hour. The women were > unaware of which mixture they were given first; on the second day, > separated from the first by at least a week, the women were given the > second mixture and the tests were repeated. > > After drinking the tryptophan-free mixture there was a 75% reduction > in tryptophan in the blood plasma and ten women experienced temporary > but clinically significant depressive symptoms. No changes in mood > were seen after drinking the nutritionally balanced mixture. > > These findings support the evidence that serotonin deficiency is > involved in causing depression. An interesting aspect of these findings > is for those on diets or who have eating disorders, such as bulimia nervosa, > because, as the authors conclude, "Even modest changes in serotonin > activity of the type produced by dieting could have adverse effects in > those vulnerable to clinical depression". The implications for dietary > and pharmacological manipulations of serotonin levels for the treatment > of depression are exciting. > > Contact: Dr Katy Smith, Psychopharmacology Research Unit, > Littlemore Hospital, Oxford University, Oxford, UK; Tel +44 (0) 1865 778911 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 11-JUL-1998 12:07:24.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: prozac For all of your interested in the prozac reference: I do not have it. I do remember, however, that I came across it when I was searching CD- ROM files for research on neurological functioning in farm animals esp. re: neurotransmitters. I do have the Macleans' article (May 23, 1994) "Questioning Prozac". This article is about 4 pages long and primarily focuses on human use. I also do know that serotonnin enhancers (serotonin re-uptake inhibitors; SSRI's) are being used promisingly in autoimmune diseases and other chronic diseases. Chris: I don't recall (from the article) any modification of aggression re: mode of withdrawal of dogs from prozac. There is probably some informative literature. A graduate student with access to a CD-ROM could probably dig it up. (Humans are not gradually withdrawn from Prozac although I understand they usually are told there is an "adjustment" period). The current Compendium of Pharmaceuticals has 3 pages on Prozac with extensive and detailed information on its effects on all systems, organs and tissues in the human body. Again - I think the primary focus of the article I read was that we cannot always assume that human drugs used in animals will produce the same reaction (especially re: any drug that affects cognitive/emotive functioning). Ciao, Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"claude.beata@wanadoo.fr" 12-JUL-1998 03:35:52.30 To: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" Subj: RE: Magic cat spray? Hello Glynne, Here in France,we have been using Feliway since three years. It's a facial pheromone synthetic analog. A french vet called Patrick Pageat analysed the facial secretion in cat (you know when they are rubbing their face) and found about 15 common elements in all cats. He defined 5 efficient fractions (from F1 to F5). Feliway is the synthetic analog of F3 fraction. We can call it a "environmental familiarizing pheromone". By the way, you have to put it everywhere except on the cat ! We now know that urine spraying is raising in cats when more than 70 % of their facial marks have disappeared in the house. So you have to spray Feliway not even in the soiled places but everywhere a "normal" cat would rub its face. Urine spraying, scratching on furnitures are the most obvious uses but you can also use it to decrease anxiety during transportation by sparying in the box or to famialarize cats with a new home (during holidays for instance). Don't forget to spray the product about ten minutes before the cat gets in ( because of unpleasant alcoholic odor). All the anxious disorders in cats can be helped by using feliway. As Debbie Horwitz wrote, it is not an hundred per cent successfull story but you will cure or improve the problem in many, many cases. And the story is not finished ! I had the luck to test the synthetic analog of F4 fraction. It's the "allomarking pheromone". It familarizes cats with any living being. They find the marked being a non-hostile one. If you have to deal with cats (and vets know that: how to take a blood sample without anasthaesia), it improves the contact. And if you use together F3(Feliway) and F4 the new one the results are really surprising. F4 will be useful too when someone has to introduce a new animal in a house or when two cats (who were living well togethet) can't stand each other (somertimes after a verterinary visit). Hope that helps. Claude Beata DVM Clinical Ethology graduate Vetrinary Behavior Consultations From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 12-JUL-1998 16:09:21.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group", IN%"claude.beata@wanadoo.fr" CC: Subj: RE: Magic cat spray? Is the F4 commercially available, or if not is it intended to make it available in the future? Sounds to me that such a product if effective could be extremely valuable when rehoming etc. Best wishes Chris rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ ---------- > From: Claude Beata > To: Glynne Anderson > Cc: Applied-ethology > Subject: Re: Magic cat spray? > Date: 12 July 1998 10:37 > > Hello Glynne, > > Here in France,we have been using Feliway since three years. > > It's a facial pheromone synthetic analog. > A french vet called Patrick Pageat analysed the facial secretion in cat > (you know when they are rubbing their face) and found about 15 common > elements in all cats. He defined 5 efficient fractions (from F1 to F5). > Feliway is the synthetic analog of F3 fraction. We can call it a > "environmental familiarizing pheromone". By the way, you have to put it > everywhere except on the cat ! > We now know that urine spraying is raising in cats when more than 70 % > of their facial marks have disappeared in the house. So you have to > spray Feliway not even in the soiled places but everywhere a "normal" > cat would rub its face. > > Urine spraying, scratching on furnitures are the most obvious uses but > you can also use it to decrease anxiety during transportation by > sparying in the box or to famialarize cats with a new home (during > holidays for instance). Don't forget to spray the product about ten > minutes before the cat gets in ( because of unpleasant alcoholic odor). > All the anxious disorders in cats can be helped by using feliway. > > As Debbie Horwitz wrote, it is not an hundred per cent successfull story > but you will cure or improve the problem in many, many cases. > > And the story is not finished ! I had the luck to test the synthetic > analog of F4 fraction. It's the "allomarking pheromone". It familarizes > cats with any living being. They find the marked being a non-hostile > one. If you have to deal with cats (and vets know that: how to take a > blood sample without anasthaesia), it improves the contact. And if you > use together F3(Feliway) and F4 the new one the results are really > surprising. > > F4 will be useful too when someone has to introduce a new animal in a > house or when two cats (who were living well togethet) can't stand each > other (somertimes after a verterinary visit). > > Hope that helps. > > Claude Beata > DVM > Clinical Ethology graduate > Vetrinary Behavior Consultations > > From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 13-JUL-1998 03:28:31.96 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: Magic cat spray? Thank you to everyone who was kind enough to answer my query re Feliway. Is there anyone else out there who has first hand experience of the product and who can report on it's effectiveness? Best regards Glynne From: IN%"masuma@lucent.com" 13-JUL-1998 08:13:23.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Dominance or eliminating the weak? My friend has three dobies. All getting up in age, but one is really old - past 11yrs. My friend has had her only about 2 years or so - they are all rescues and Sally (the oldest) was abandoned because she was too old and was going to be destroyed, so my friend took her in to allow her a few decent last days. Sally is the most recent rescue, the other two (7-9 yrs old) have been with her much longer. It is unclear the positioning in the pack, but Sally certainly is not on top, however she is cranky and will let the others know definitively when she wants to be left alone. They are all arthritic, and Sally is the worst - so much so that she can't really sit, she has to go from stand to lie down. She is very slow in whatever she does (she doesn't seem to be in pain yet, just slow). She is also getting worse, if one of the others bump into her, she usually falls down. Here's the problem. The others (Elsie and Sasha) have been good to Sally all along, by leaving her alone when Sally was just resting, or giving her a wide berth when she was cranky. Until recently. They have ganged up on Sally and "attacked" her a couple of times, recently. It has always been broken up with no serious injuries but the trend is very disturbing. Both times Sally was already in a bad position - she had either been bumped and was on the ground or she was already down and was having a hard time standing up. Do you think this is some pack related thing to "eliminate" the weakest? My friend is very concerned and would like to know what to do to make sure they are safe when she's not home. She has crated Elsie and Sasha when they have acted up but no one is being crated now. -- Masuma Barrett Email: masuma@lucent.com Lucent Technologies Voice: (303) 538-1228 11900 N. Pecos, Denver CO 80234 Fax: (303) 538-3907 From: IN%"comden@vet.purdue.edu" "Catherine A Comden" 13-JUL-1998 08:39:46.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Aggressive Borzoi Hi again. It has been brought to my intention that my post about behaviorists and dog trainers, in response to the below post, did not include non-veterinary behaviorists as referral options. My apologies to all the qualified non-veterinary behaviorists who help people solve aggression and other behavior problems. I did not intent to offend anyone. The point I was trying to make was that a background in dog training, however extensive, does not prepare one to handle aggression cases. Thank you, Dr. Horowitz, for your supportive reply. (I shall return to lurking! - grins-) Hi Teri, welcome to the list. I have been a professional dog trainer/ obedience instructor, etc. for about 8 years. Currently I am working with Dr. Luescher, a veterinary behaviorist at Purdue University. I used to try and handle aggression cases, when I was a trainer, because I knew no one else in my area (when I lived in Montana) would help these people. I have learned so much recently, that now I would hesitate to begin working with an aggressive dog without a thorough workup by a veterinary behaviorist. Even what appears to be "simple aggression" isn't simple. Perhaps someone on this list knows a veterinary behaviorist in your area? Best, Catherine At 09:35 AM 7/10/98 -0400, you wrote: > To list members, & I just joined the list. I am an Obedience >Instructor and I also assist clients with behavior problems with their >dogs and cats. Recently I had a conversation with a client about her 1 1/2 >year old Borzoi who is aggressive intermittently. He bit someone last week >and the last incident was over 1 year ago. The bite comes without warning >and only when the face or head is handled. But sometimes the face and head >can be handled with no aggressive results. This dogs father was known to >be quite aggressive on a daily basis. I have not worked with a Borzoi >before but I know they are known to be quite docile in nature. Please >reply if you have ever experienced a similar situation. Thanks! Teri T. Catherine Comden, B.A. Animal Behavior Technologist Purdue University comden@vet.purdue.edu (765)494-8154 From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "Margaret (Peggy) Shunick" 13-JUL-1998 13:34:52.34 To: IN%"comden@vet.purdue.edu" "Catherine A Comden", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Aggressive Borzoi Hi All, With all due respect to qualified non-veterinary behaviorists, I suspect that Catherine, like myself, was remembering that Texas A & M found fully 25% of the dogs referred to their behavior clinic had medical problems complicating their presentation for behavior problems. Therefore, it is wise to rule out physiological problems when deciding on a course of treatment. Sincerely, Peggy ---------- > Hi again. > > It has been brought to my intention that my post about behaviorists and dog > trainers, in response to the below post, did not include non-veterinary > behaviorists as referral options. > > My apologies to all the qualified non-veterinary behaviorists who help > people solve aggression and other behavior problems. I did not intent to > offend anyone. The point I was trying to make was that a background in dog > training, however extensive, does not prepare one to handle aggression cases. > > Thank you, Dr. Horowitz, for your supportive reply. > > (I shall return to lurking! - grins-) > > > > > Hi Teri, welcome to the list. > > I have been a professional dog trainer/ obedience instructor, etc. for > about 8 years. Currently I am working with Dr. Luescher, a veterinary > behaviorist at Purdue University. I used to try and handle aggression > cases, when I was a trainer, because I knew no one else in my area (when I > lived in Montana) would help these people. I have learned so much > recently, that now I would hesitate to begin working with an aggressive dog > without a thorough workup by a veterinary behaviorist. Even what appears > to be "simple aggression" isn't simple. Perhaps someone on this list knows > a veterinary behaviorist in your area? > > Best, > Catherine > > > At 09:35 AM 7/10/98 -0400, you wrote: > > To list members, & I just joined the list. I am an Obedience > >Instructor and I also assist clients with behavior problems with their > >dogs and cats. Recently I had a conversation with a client about her 1 1/2 > >year old Borzoi who is aggressive intermittently. He bit someone last week > >and the last incident was over 1 year ago. The bite comes without warning > >and only when the face or head is handled. But sometimes the face and head > >can be handled with no aggressive results. This dogs father was known to > >be quite aggressive on a daily basis. I have not worked with a Borzoi > >before but I know they are known to be quite docile in nature. Please > >reply if you have ever experienced a similar situation. Thanks! Teri T. > Catherine Comden, B.A. > Animal Behavior Technologist > Purdue University > > comden@vet.purdue.edu > (765)494-8154 From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "appleby" 13-JUL-1998 15:05:31.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Aggressive Borzoi In article , Margaret (Peggy) Shunick writes >With all due respect to qualified non-veterinary behaviorists, I suspect >that Catherine, like myself, was remembering that Texas A & M found fully >25% of the dogs referred to their behavior clinic had medical problems >complicating their presentation for behavior problems. Therefore, it is >wise to rule out physiological problems when deciding on a course of >treatment On this subject you may be interested to note that The Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors recognises that where the practitioner is not a veterinary surgeon a strong link between the veterinary surgeon and behaviourist is essential. It emphasises this importance in its membership requirement that all members must work solely on veterinary referral, not least because of the link between some medical conditions and behavioural symptoms. See http://www.apbc.org.uk/vet.htm for more information Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"KAKerby@aol.com" 13-JUL-1998 21:06:05.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dominance or eliminating the weak It will be interesting to see what some of the dog experts out there say, but I had the wonderful opportunity to observe some wolves in a pack which had been observed by others for a long time. There was a lot of variability between members, in terms of what behaviors would be attempted and in what contect. But the general impression I carried away was that wolves are very opportunistic, and when they see an advantage they'll continue to cultivate that advantage. In this context, if one of the wolves was ever thought to be weak, even temporarily, some or most of the others would have pestered and worried and finally attacked that animal until the animal was driven out or killed. A few exceptions occurred, such as when the alpha male suffered a debilitating respiratory disease, and the other animals still deferred to him. But usually at least some of the members of the pack will capitalize on any opportunity, and what begins as a minor weakness can result in a major loss of status (or loss of limb or life) in only hours. I'll insert the disclaimer here that wolves are not dogs, and we cannot make straight-line comparisons between the two species. I'll also insert the disclaimer that I'm merely a rank greenhorn when it comes to dogs, with but one dog of my own that I can take credit for training to any extent (and wow do we have a ways to go!). But from what you've said, and from what I saw in those wolves and in domesticated dogs over the years, I'd hazard a guess that Sally is at considerable risk from the others. In fact, I can't help but wonder if the casual bumps and knock-downs you've mentioned were subtle but significant tests of Sally's strength, stamina and personality. Her condition is only going to deteriorate even without interference from them, and if they've already openly attacked her, I can't imagine the situation is going to improve. I'd get her out of that environment if I could. I'll be interested to see what others on this mail service think, and if they believe the situation could be improved, how they would suggest doing so. Best of luck to you and to Sally. From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 13-JUL-1998 23:10:12.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dominance or eliminating the weak I have to agree with all that is said here. I have lived most of my life in a multiple dog household and have repeatedly seen this happen. Two recent incidents. A friend who had an elderly Alpha Bouvier bitch. The bitch was blind, but held her status. The dog was hit by a car and had pelvis and one leg badly broken. The dog recovered but afterward was a target for all dogs. Her odd way of moving seemed to be what keyed the other dogs, and the "minor bumps" and so on started. The dog finally had to be totally seperated from the other dogs. She used to bring the dog to group class in the spring, letting the dog lay on a mat in the sun, just to enjoy the day and get a break from being isolated. We had to end that because dogs in the class that didn't even know the injured bitch were eyeing her like she was prey. If they saw her walk they wanted to attack her. In my own household I have a male Thai Ridgeback that none of the others will challenge, but he is prone to seizures (apparently had distemper at some time in his past). The other dogs will mercilously attack him when he is in siezure. The worst one is my Weim, who has absolutely not an ounce of dog aggression and is at the bottom of the pecking order here. When the TR is not in seizure, all he has to do is give the Weim a dirty look and the Weim slinks off. But once the siezure starts, this normally generous and gentle wimp of a Weim who can get along with any other dog suddenly turns maniac when he sees the siezures. Fortunately, the Weim seems to know in advance when the seizures are coming. I usually know from observing the Weim if the TR is going to have a siezure, and get all separated before the seizure actually hits. I don' t dare leave the TR unattended with the other dogs. I agree that the dog in question is at great risk and needs to be permanently separated from the other dogs. Kathy Hughes In a message dated 98-07-13 23:10:00 EDT, you write: << It will be interesting to see what some of the dog experts out there say, but I had the wonderful opportunity to observe some wolves in a pack which had been observed by others for a long time. There was a lot of variability between members, in terms of what behaviors would be attempted and in what contect. But the general impression I carried away was that wolves are very opportunistic, and when they see an advantage they'll continue to cultivate that advantage. In this context, if one of the wolves was ever thought to be weak, even temporarily, some or most of the others would have pestered and worried and finally attacked that animal until the animal was driven out or killed. A few exceptions occurred, such as when the alpha male suffered a debilitating respiratory disease, and the other animals still deferred to him. But usually at least some of the members of the pack will capitalize on any opportunity, and what begins as a minor weakness can result in a major loss of status (or loss of limb or life) in only hours. I'll insert the disclaimer here that wolves are not dogs, and we cannot make straight-line comparisons between the two species. I'll also insert the disclaimer that I'm merely a rank greenhorn when it comes to dogs, with but one dog of my own that I can take credit for training to any extent (and wow do we have a ways to go!). But from what you've said, and from what I saw in those wolves and in domesticated dogs over the years, I'd hazard a guess that Sally is at considerable risk from the others. In fact, I can't help but wonder if the casual bumps and knock-downs you've mentioned were subtle but significant tests of Sally's strength, stamina and personality. Her condition is only going to deteriorate even without interference from them, and if they've already openly attacked her, I can't imagine the situation is going to improve. I'd get her out of that environment if I could. I'll be interested to see what others on this mail service think, and if they believe the situation could be improved, how they would suggest doing so. Best of luck to you and to Sally >> From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 13-JUL-1998 23:22:34.55 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Behavior problems Subj: Returned mail: User unknown Date: 98-07-13 18:35:41 EDT From: MAILER-DAEMON@aol.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem) To: Kattykorn2@aol.com The original message was received at Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:24:47 -0400 (EDT) from root@localhost In a message dated 98-07-13 15:35:16 EDT, you write: << Hi All, With all due respect to qualified non-veterinary behaviorists, I suspect that Catherine, like myself, was remembering that Texas A & M found fully 25% of the dogs referred to their behavior clinic had medical problems complicating their presentation for behavior problems. Therefore, it is wise to rule out physiological problems when deciding on a course of treatment. Sincerely, Peggy >> Peggy, Many dog trainers (myself included) today will not accept a "behavior problem" dog without it first going to a veterinarian for a complete health screening to determine if there are physical/medical issues that could be contributing to the undesirable behavior. I think more and more dog trainers are becoming educated about the need to do this. Also, one of the reasons I asked Catherine to give her definition of the aggression she feels should not be handled by dog trainers is because we find many of the "aggression problems" that we evaluate are not true aggression. Often the issue is something like elevated or uncontrolled play aggression and is easily solved with some basic education of dog and owner. Kathy Hughes From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 13-JUL-1998 23:32:48.86 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Behaviorists I am on a professional dog trainers' email list and this same subject was recently a topic of conversation there. The discussion concerned when to refer a client to an animal behaviorist. I see many dog trainers advertising themselves as "behaviorists" now days. I have started asking both trainers and clients "What qualifications or experience do you think warrant the title "behaviorist"? One would be amazed at the replies. In general, the dog trainers agreed that in the current environment, almost anyone can get away with calling themselves a "behaviorist" and use the term as an advertising tag (same as just about anyone can get away with calling themselves a "dog trainer"). In some areas folks are fortunate to have good veterinarian behaviorists that they can have confidence referring clients to. In other areas there are folks with excellent educational and hands on qualifications. In other areas the situation is very iffy as far as the qualifications of the "behaviorists" that are available. I would be interested in the response to this from folks on this list, because I am trying to define what dogs should be referred to a behaviorist, and what qualifications a client needs to look for in a behaviorist. I think this is important to clarify because I found both trainers and clients were very fuzzy in their thinking about this. Kathy Hughes From: IN%"Willem.Schouten@ETHO.VH.WAU.NL" 14-JUL-1998 00:22:23.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: ... no subject ... I am one of the others, but I will be in Clermont Ferrand between July 20th and 29th . Willem - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hear, hear, hear! Oyez, oyez, oyez! Avisse! I will be off (like many colleagues, amongst others, to Clermont) between August 20th and 29th. So would those who intend to send me a message during that period please refrain from doing so, as the university server sometimes deletes saturated mailboxes. Thank you! Frank O. _dberg Prof.Dr.F.O._dberg Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: +32-(0)9-2647849 - - - - - - - - - - - - End of Original Message - - - - - - - - - - - - From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" 14-JUL-1998 03:34:06.78 To: IN%"comden@vet.purdue.edu" "Catherine A Comden" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Aggressive Borzoi On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:38:10 -0500 Catherine A Comden wrote: > From: Catherine A Comden > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:38:10 -0500 > Subject: Aggressive Borzoi > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Hi again. > > It has been brought to my intention that my post about behaviorists and dog > trainers, in response to the below post, did not include non-veterinary > behaviorists as referral options. > > My apologies to all the qualified non-veterinary behaviorists who help > people solve aggression and other behavior problems. I did not intent to > offend anyone. The point I was trying to make was that a background in dog > training, however extensive, does not prepare one to handle aggression cases. > > Thank you, Dr. Horowitz, for your supportive reply. > > (I shall return to lurking! - grins-) > > > > > Hi Teri, welcome to the list. > > I have been a professional dog trainer/ obedience instructor, etc. for > about 8 years. Currently I am working with Dr. Luescher, a veterinary > behaviorist at Purdue University. I used to try and handle aggression > cases, when I was a trainer, because I knew no one else in my area (when I > lived in Montana) would help these people. I have learned so much > recently, that now I would hesitate to begin working with an aggressive dog > without a thorough workup by a veterinary behaviorist. Even what appears > to be "simple aggression" isn't simple. Perhaps someone on this list knows > a veterinary behaviorist in your area? > > Best, > Catherine > > > At 09:35 AM 7/10/98 -0400, you wrote: > > To list members, & I just joined the list. I am an Obedience > >Instructor and I also assist clients with behavior problems with their > >dogs and cats. Recently I had a conversation with a client about her 1 1/2 > >year old Borzoi who is aggressive intermittently. He bit someone last week > >and the last incident was over 1 year ago. The bite comes without warning > >and only when the face or head is handled. But sometimes the face and head > >can be handled with no aggressive results. This dogs father was known to > >be quite aggressive on a daily basis. I have not worked with a Borzoi > >before but I know they are known to be quite docile in nature. Please > >reply if you have ever experienced a similar situation. Thanks! Teri T. > Catherine Comden, B.A. > Animal Behavior Technologist > Purdue University > > comden@vet.purdue.edu > (765)494-8154 **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road I really must take issue with the above opinion, although there had probabley been much discussion which I have missed. A background in anyl training ( including the curiously considered superiority of veterinary training for dealing with behavioural problems) does not result in the solution of all dog aggression problems. But a background in dog training, ethology & behaviour has a much greater likelyhood ofcontributing to the lunderstanding cause and consequently working out strategies for reducing or stopping the problem than the current fashion of drug administering drugs,. a specialism of many veterinary "behaviourists". At least it is unlikely to have undesirable physiological or behavioural consequences. It is time that the issue of treatment of behavioural problems using drugs was seriously reviewed. This is relevant also to the discussion on who is qualified to act as an animal behavioural consultant? Although there are a number of vets who have taken this subject seriously and made an effort to learn something about ethology and behaviour of the species they work with, this is by no means the rule with vetinarians who describe themselves as animal behavioural consultants, even on British Television. If dog trainers cannot call themselves behavioural consultants, certainly veterinarians cant unless they have had some serious training. There may be different solutions to behavioural problems. it would be a great disaster to cut altnernative approaches out. There are aromotherapists who treat behavioural problems, are they more or less qualified than veterinarians???? A matter of some serious debate. Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 **************************************************************************** From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" 14-JUL-1998 03:56:32.08 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Strange Question **************************************************************************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 We trained a heifer to do a serious of movements on word command if you are interested in the paper send a note & I will send it. Interestingly the heifer learnt to do a series of tasks as quick or quicker than the other species we were trainining, and she was not keen to work for food, but for a scratch instead. I have in the passed also taught cattle to call when asked, either with the low purr call or the louder call with the mouth open. Cattle, like other mammals can be taught a great variety of things provided this is done with some understanding and knowledge of the species and how learning works. M.Kiley-Worthington & H.Randle. From: IN%"dmills@dmu.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" 14-JUL-1998 04:06:40.13 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Research into companion animal behaviour problems Companion animal behaviour therapy is a growing field of applied ethology but much of its work is based on the application of science from other disciplines such as experimental psychology etc. I am currently trying to compile details of all ongoing research specifically focussed on this discipline rather than that which may be of relevance but is primarily focussed in a different direction. In this sense companion animal means horses and pets kept in the home ( dogs cats rabbits etc). I would really appreciate a worldwide input on this. I would be pleased to receive details from anyone involved in such work or who knows of such work currently ongoing. For inclusion I need the following information: Name of institution conducting research Principal Investigators Title of project species involved start date and anticipated completion date. A brief resume of the work would be nice but is not essential. If people are interested I will post the list on the net once I have received sufficient details. Please forward this message to anyone or anywhere you think it may gain a response. Many thanks Daniel Mills Senior Lecturer in Behavioural Studies and Animal Welfare De Montfort University Lincoln Caythorpe campus dmills@dmu.ac.uk From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 14-JUL-1998 07:44:50.86 To: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Aggressive Borzoi Marthe In the United States, American Veterinary Medical Association Policy Statements and Guidelines specify that a veterinarian cannot refer to themselves as a "specialist", "expert", having "advanced knowledge or training in..." or as an "...ologist or ...ist" (e.g. behaviorist) unless they are board certified in that field. Board certification requires 3 to 5 years of post-DVM education and clinical training, and passage of rigorous examinations. Education for a veterinary behaviorist includes principles of behavior as well as extensive clinical experience, psychopharmacology, and many other subjects. I guess Britain doesn't have such a system, but over here there is real meaning to the phrase "veterinary behaviorist". Sharon Crowell-Davis > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:36:53 +0100 (BST) > From: room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour > Subject: Re: Aggressive Borzoi > To: Catherine A Comden > Cc: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Priority: Normal > > > > On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:38:10 -0500 Catherine A Comden wrote: > > > From: Catherine A Comden > > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:38:10 -0500 > > Subject: Aggressive Borzoi > > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > > > Hi again. > > > > It has been brought to my intention that my post about behaviorists and dog > > trainers, in response to the below post, did not include non-veterinary > > behaviorists as referral options. > > > > My apologies to all the qualified non-veterinary behaviorists who help > > people solve aggression and other behavior problems. I did not intent to > > offend anyone. The point I was trying to make was that a background in dog > > training, however extensive, does not prepare one to handle aggression cases. > > > > Thank you, Dr. Horowitz, for your supportive reply. > > > > (I shall return to lurking! - grins-) > > > > > > > > > > Hi Teri, welcome to the list. > > > > I have been a professional dog trainer/ obedience instructor, etc. for > > about 8 years. Currently I am working with Dr. Luescher, a veterinary > > behaviorist at Purdue University. I used to try and handle aggression > > cases, when I was a trainer, because I knew no one else in my area (when I > > lived in Montana) would help these people. I have learned so much > > recently, that now I would hesitate to begin working with an aggressive dog > > without a thorough workup by a veterinary behaviorist. Even what appears > > to be "simple aggression" isn't simple. Perhaps someone on this list knows > > a veterinary behaviorist in your area? > > > > Best, > > Catherine > > > > > > At 09:35 AM 7/10/98 -0400, you wrote: > > > To list members, & I just joined the list. I am an Obedience > > >Instructor and I also assist clients with behavior problems with their > > >dogs and cats. Recently I had a conversation with a client about her 1 1/2 > > >year old Borzoi who is aggressive intermittently. He bit someone last week > > >and the last incident was over 1 year ago. The bite comes without warning > > >and only when the face or head is handled. But sometimes the face and head > > >can be handled with no aggressive results. This dogs father was known to > > >be quite aggressive on a daily basis. I have not worked with a Borzoi > > >before but I know they are known to be quite docile in nature. Please > > >reply if you have ever experienced a similar situation. Thanks! Teri T. > > Catherine Comden, B.A. > > Animal Behavior Technologist > > Purdue University > > > > comden@vet.purdue.edu > > (765)494-8154 > **************************************************************************** > Dept. of Psychology > Washington Singer Labs > Room No: 016 > University of Exeter > Perry Road > > > > I really must take issue with the above opinion, although there had probabley been much discussion which I have missed. A > background in anyl training ( including the curiously considered superiority of veterinary training for dealing with behavioural > problems) does not result in the solution of all dog aggression problems. But a background in dog training, ethology & behaviour has > a much greater likelyhood ofcontributing to the lunderstanding cause and consequently working out strategies for reducing or > stopping the problem than the current fashion of drug administering drugs,. a specialism of many veterinary "behaviourists". At least > it is unlikely to have undesirable physiological or behavioural consequences. It is time that the issue of treatment of behavioural > problems using drugs was seriously reviewed. > This is relevant also to the discussion on who is qualified to act as an animal behavioural consultant? Although there are a > number of vets who have taken this subject seriously and made an effort to learn something about ethology and behaviour of the > species they work with, this is by no means the rule with vetinarians who describe themselves as animal behavioural consultants, > even on British Television. If dog trainers cannot call themselves behavioural consultants, certainly veterinarians cant unless they > have had some serious training. There may be different solutions to behavioural problems. it would be a great disaster to cut > altnernative approaches out. There are aromotherapists who treat behavioural problems, are they more or less qualified than > veterinarians???? A matter of some serious debate. > > > Exeter EX4 4QG, UK > > FAX +44 1392 264623 > **************************************************************************** > > > ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"lboyle@MOOREPARK.TEAGASC.IE" "LAURA BOYLE" 14-JUL-1998 08:01:49.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Back to pigs for a change! Hello, I would greatly appreciate some opinions on the following........ We are converting a dry sow house with about 50 basket crates into loose pens based on a voluntary cubicle/free access stall system. Sows will be wet fed twice per day and we plan to leave the stall length at about 2 metres with a fully slatted dunging/exercise area behind. Initially we were planning on having 4 sows per group but this decision was mostly based on the fact that any of the farms we visited operated group sizes of 4. I have scanned through all my papers that worked with similar housing systems and group sizes seem to range from 3 to 10 with 4 or 6 being commonest. Why 4 or 6 ? Why not 5? Is there anything wrong with 10? Or does it really matter? I realise of course that the availabilty of space will be a determining factor but does anyone know the optimal group size for a housing system such as this? I have not really done a literature search on this yet but building is about to go ahead so I needed some prompt suggestions! Thanks a million! Laura Laura Boyle, (PhD student, sow behaviour and welfare) Pig Production Research Centre, Moorepark, Fermoy, Co. Cork, IRELAND. Telephone: +353-25-42389 Fax : +353-25-42340 Email: Lboyle@Moorepark.Teagasc.ie From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 14-JUL-1998 08:26:11.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Whatever it is that has made Marthe so cross. I really must take issue with the above opinion, although there had probably been much discussion which I have missed. A background in any training ( including the curiously considered superiority of veterinary training for dealing with behavioural problems) does not result in the solution of all dog aggression problems. But a background in dog training, ethology & behaviour has a much greater likelihood ofcontributing to the understanding cause and consequently working out strategies for reducing or stopping the problem than the current fashion of drug administering drugs,. a specialism of many veterinary "behaviourists". At least it is unlikely to have undesirable physiological or behavioural consequences. It is time that the issue of treatment of behavioural problems using drugs was seriously reviewed. This is relevant also to the discussion on who is qualified to act as an animal behavioural consultant? Although there are a number of vets who have taken this subject seriously and made an effort to learn something about ethology and behaviour of the species they work with, this is by no means the rule with veterinarians who describe themselves as animal behavioural consultants, even on British Television. If dog trainers cannot call themselves behavioural consultants, certainly veterinarians cant unless they have had some serious training. There may be different solutions to behavioural problems. it would be a great disaster to cut alternative approaches out. There are aromotherapists who treat behavioural problems, are they more or less qualified than veterinarians???? A matter of some serious debate. Marthe, As a veterinary surgeon my interest in behaviour problems was inspired at the outset by the very public concern over dreadful accidents with dogs in recent years. It seemed that my livelihood could be is some jeopardy at the hands of panicky, self serving government. If I was invited to structure the undergraduate education of veterinary students I would build the whole subject upon ethology, with early inputs of neuroendocrinology and psycho-pharmacology. The student would move on to study anatomy/surgery and medicine/pathology with insights that are only bolted on as afterthoughts at the present time. There is a vogue for specialist inflation or what I call academic hot-air ballooning, being a process whereby people vie for scholastic altitude via certificate, diploma or doctorate expansion. This process tends to leave something of a vacuum at 'ground level' where the attentions of a knowledgeable person with some courage and piece of string can work wonders in the rehabilitation of disturbed critters. I say that 'behaviour practice' should not rank as a speciality as do subjects such as advanced surgery or dermatology etc. Rather behavioural expertise is needed at parental and animal caring level so that ridiculous suffering is not caused by incompetent handling or nurturing. Research and innovation should be encouraged and this should include a synthesis of all the related disciplines. Very few disturbed animals are ill. If anything is remarkable it is the 'good' behaviour of sick and traumatised creatures. For the cases of emotionally chaotic dogs I see the need for huge medical 'work-up' is small. The need for a patient, ingenious, experienced and affordable rehabilitator to work for weeks and months with the disorderly human and its bewildered pet is compelling Robin Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk" 14-JUL-1998 08:32:06.97 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Back to pigs for a change! Hi Laura Group size tends to be based on the number of spaces in the farrowing shed - usually 4 to 6. Stolba and Wood-Gush (1984) found that in semi-natural conditions, family groups would consist 2-4 sows. Cheers Dale > Hello, > > I would greatly appreciate some opinions on the following........ > > We are converting a dry sow house with about 50 basket crates into > loose pens based on a voluntary cubicle/free access stall system. > Sows will be wet fed twice per day and we plan to leave the stall > length at about 2 metres with a fully slatted dunging/exercise area > behind. Initially we were planning on having 4 sows per group but > this decision was mostly based on the fact that any of the farms > we visited operated group sizes of 4. > > I have scanned through all my papers that worked with similar housing > systems and group sizes seem to range from 3 to 10 with 4 or 6 being > commonest. Why 4 or 6 ? Why not 5? Is there anything wrong with > 10? Or does it really matter? I realise of course that the > availabilty of space will be a determining factor but does anyone > know the optimal group size for a housing system such as this? > I have not really done a literature search on this yet but building > is about to go ahead so I needed some prompt suggestions! > > Thanks a million! > Laura > Laura Boyle, (PhD student, sow behaviour and welfare) > Pig Production Research Centre, > Moorepark, > Fermoy, > Co. Cork, > IRELAND. > Telephone: +353-25-42389 > Fax : +353-25-42340 > Email: Lboyle@Moorepark.Teagasc.ie > > Dale Arey GIBiol PhD SAC Animal Biology Division Ferguson Building Craibstone Aberdeen AB21 9YA UK Tel: 01224 711058 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 14-JUL-1998 10:06:05.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: wolves to dogs Comments on the posting re: domesticated dogs having different behaviours than wolves. This was in regard to wolves attacking injured pack members. 1) Many species will attack conspecifics when behaviour or physiology is not of the norm. 2) Our species, not too long ago, eradicated those who behaved or were physiologically different. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"masuma@lucent.com" 14-JUL-1998 10:31:41.95 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: wolves to dogs Deborah McWilliams wrote: > 2) Our species, not too long ago, eradicated those who behaved or > were physiologically different. So true. I wouldn't put it in the past tense though. Our specie is still trying to eradicated anything that is not like "themselves". "Norm" depends on who you ask. -- Masuma Barrett Email: masuma@lucent.com Lucent Technologies Voice: (303) 538-1228 11900 N. Pecos, Denver CO 80234 Fax: (303) 538-3907 From: IN%"masuma@lucent.com" 14-JUL-1998 10:32:48.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Eliminating the weak. Thanks everyone for your responses. I have forwarded all the responses to my friend. Thank you for your help. -- Masuma Barrett Email: masuma@lucent.com Lucent Technologies Voice: (303) 538-1228 11900 N. Pecos, Denver CO 80234 Fax: (303) 538-3907 From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 14-JUL-1998 11:29:57.61 To: IN%"masuma@lucent.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" Subj: RE: wolves to dogs Our species is also the only species that is concerned and attempting to stop the eradication of others. On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:31:29 -0600 Masuma Barrett wrote: > Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > 2) Our species, not too long ago, eradicated those who behaved or > > were physiologically different. > > So true. I wouldn't put it in the past tense though. Our specie is still > trying to eradicated anything that is not like "themselves". "Norm" depends on > who you ask. > > -- > Masuma Barrett Email: masuma@lucent.com > Lucent Technologies Voice: (303) 538-1228 > 11900 N. Pecos, Denver CO 80234 Fax: (303) 538-3907 ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"s.vdweghe@t-online.de" 14-JUL-1998 12:18:11.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Back to pigs for a change! Hallo Laura, in addition to what D. Arey wrote, groups of four are o.k. and you should give about 3 sqm per sow, more would be even better since it is difficult within a small group to avoid aggression. What is optimal depends very much on pen size and layout. Do you have any choices? Best wishes Sabine LAURA BOYLE schrieb: > Hello, > > I would greatly appreciate some opinions on the following........ > > We are converting a dry sow house with about 50 basket crates into > loose pens based on a voluntary cubicle/free access stall system. > Sows will be wet fed twice per day and we plan to leave the stall > length at about 2 metres with a fully slatted dunging/exercise area > behind. Initially we were planning on having 4 sows per group but > this decision was mostly based on the fact that any of the farms > we visited operated group sizes of 4. > > I have scanned through all my papers that worked with similar housing > systems and group sizes seem to range from 3 to 10 with 4 or 6 being > commonest. Why 4 or 6 ? Why not 5? Is there anything wrong with > 10? Or does it really matter? I realise of course that the > availabilty of space will be a determining factor but does anyone > know the optimal group size for a housing system such as this? > I have not really done a literature search on this yet but building > is about to go ahead so I needed some prompt suggestions! > > Thanks a million! > Laura > Laura Boyle, (PhD student, sow behaviour and welfare) > Pig Production Research Centre, > Moorepark, > Fermoy, > Co. Cork, > IRELAND. > Telephone: +353-25-42389 > Fax : +353-25-42340 > Email: Lboyle@Moorepark.Teagasc.ie From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "appleby" 14-JUL-1998 12:58:41.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Aggressive Borzoi In article <199807141344.JAA21354@dns1.uga.edu>, Sharon Crowell-Davis writes >I guess >Britain doesn't have such a system, but over here there is real >meaning to the phrase "veterinary behaviorist". There are post-graduate and MSc courses open to both veterinary and none veterinary behaviour counsellor alike. See http://www.apbc.org.uk/EDULINKS.HTM for links to the relevant sites for these and other courses. Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"Shetts@aol.com" 14-JUL-1998 14:12:17.51 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Behaviorists This is in reply to Kathy Hughes' question regarding who is a "behaviorist" and when should clients be referred to one. I joined the list about a month ago, and have been lurking as well. I have a Ph.D. in zoology from Colo. ST. Univ. with a specialization in animal behavior and am certified by the Animal Behavior Society as an applied animal behaviorist. You are right, anyone can call themselves an animal behaviorist, dog behaviorist, cat behaviorist, etc, without any formal training in the science of animal behavior. It is somewhat ironic, that as Dr. Crowell-Davis points out, now that there is a board speciality in behavior, veterinarians cannot use the "ist" suffix while anyone else can. In my opinion, I guess it is a question of professional ethics. While many dog trainers do offer assistance with behavior problems (with an extremely wide continuum of competence), I personally think the term "behaviorist" should be appropriate for those people who have formal, academic training in the field. This is one reason why the ABS developed their certification program - to at least distinguish between certified and non- certifed folks. Since there is no licensing requirements for behaviorists, one must investigate each individuals credentials as you suggest. While certification - by the Behavior College or the ABS does not guarantee competence it at least tries to ensure that certified/boarded people are familiar with a basic body of scientific knowledge and have some experience in the field. For more information about the Animal Behavior Society's certification program visit their website at www.cisab.indiana.edu/animal_behavior.html. Finally, as you point out, anyone can also call themselves a "dog trainer" regardless of their qualifications, which I know many trainers take exception to. Hopefully, within the next several years there will be standards for dog trainers as well. Sorry for the long post, I too will go back to lurking Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D. Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist From: IN%"ivoryhaven@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" 14-JUL-1998 23:46:55.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Mourning and Cognitive thinking I have worked with goats, horses, an African Gray Parrot, other small birds, dogs, pigs, cats,and a variety of other animals both domestic and "exotic". I also have two elephants on our farm as I mentioned and have lived with them for over 10 years. Their thought processes are much more evolvd than those of any of the other animals I have worked with. We show horses, have trianed our bird to put coins in a cup as an example and our goat we had use to jump hurdles and dance. The dogs herd the other animals...but the elephants are more similar to my own human children than any of my pets...I have enough experience with a wide variety of animals to understand the difference between these various animals ability to learn, their cognitive processess, reactions, intelligence....I just wish I had a scientific way to study it, present it and share it with others because I can see that these types of questions you are all raising are being answered by the elephants all of the time.. I just do not know how to make note of them in a format through scientific study that would prove whart I am saying and have observed. I have a window not many people have because so few live this closely with elephants (our house is actually part of the same long building the barn is in with 8 feet of tempered glass windows between sides) There is much more that I could tell you but do not care to risk the wrath of those who would accuse me of being anthropomorphic unless I have a friendly ear or a way to prove what I have observed. I welcome any suggestions as to how to do this, I also would be willing to work with someone on a thesis or other paper if they desired to share their time with us and were willing to work on the farm or donate time or money in some other way...We are building this breeding facility completley on our own so support in a variety of fashions is welcomed. I have been working with several people on bioaccoustic, vocalization studies among other projects for the last year and would be interested in expanding. Regards, Sheree Walters t 11:44 AM 6/23/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, W. Ray Stricklin wrote: > >> I think that the question should be turned around. What would be the >> cost to a mother who walked away from a sleeping offspring because it >> was not moving? It is obviously important that the evolved system error >> strongly on the side of making certain the offspring is dead before the >> mother walks away. >>=20 >Dear Ray, > > It would seem however, that such a system could evolve to detect death > without a strong emotional component. In fact, recognizing death is > easy (at least among humans) it is the realization that it has occurred > which stirs up such a strong emotional response. Related to the orginal > question - why would non-human animals mourn the death or engage in > behaviours that appear to mimic the emotions that humans experience? Or > even more important, how could they experience the emotion without > experiencing a thought process which preceeded the emotion? > >> Loosing an offspring in many species represents an enormous loss (to the >> fitness of the individual). I would think that it is to be expected that >> an evolving system would move toward producing individuals capable of >> negative feelings (maybe one could even say feelings of "punishment" or >> guilt) associated with a loss of such enormous importance. I don't see >> why an adaptive system would _not_ punish "mistakes" in behavior >> (mismothering) through pain (mourning) any less than it punishes >> mistakes such as getting burned from a fire results through pain.=20 >> =20 >> I have heard it stated that most first-calf ungulates do not survive in >> nature and that the first offspring is basically a learning experience >> for the mother. I would think that having resultant feelings of pain >> (grieving/mourning or whatever you wish to call it) associated with the >> loss of an offspring would greatly facilitate learning and thus be >> highly adaptive.=20 >>=20 >> An argument could be made that feelings of pain (mourning and/or guilt?)= in=20 >> association with the loss of an offspring would be highly adaptive even= in=20 >> situations we humans would consider to be irrational. >>=20 >> ---------------------- >> W. Ray Stricklin >> University of Maryland >>=20 > >The idea that mourning has within it an element or feeling of guilt, >and/or the potential for learning an important lesson is indeed an >interesting hypothesis and puts a nice sociobiological spin on an intense >human emotion. In support, you are probably aware that guilt is often >expressed or felt by humans following the loss of a child or loved one. >There is also the expression that the death of a loved one is more >difficult if the individual was murdered instead of accidentally killed or >died from poor health. Why should the situations surrounding the death >influence the level of grief? That relatives of murdered victims have no >lesson to learn or guilt to experience could this be interferring with an >evolutionary program and normal function of mourning as you suggest and >make for a stronger emotion? I have also read or heard somewhere that the >parent who grieves the most for the loss of their child is more often the >parent who would claim the child most resembles them. Again you can see >the sociobiological connection. At the end of the day however, you can >not dismiss the cognitive process that is needed to trip the emotional >response. Much more fascinating to me than all the sociobiological spin >that is placed on human emotions is the potential for a shared emotional >similarity between humans and non-human animals surrounding the loss of a >loved one. This one particular behaviour - of apparent mourning a death, >more than any other behaviour expressed by animals, makes me ponder the >cognitive process of animals. What else to they know and think about?=20 > >Joe > >PS I figure if we keep this discussion going long enough, eventually it >will lead to questions about feelings experienced by farm animals >following forced separation and weaning. Eventually we could talk about >cows, pigs, sheep, etc. and not even have to mention dogs or cats! :) > >-------------------- >Joseph M. Stookey >Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology >Western College of Veterinary Medicine >University of Saskatchewan >Saskatoon, Saskatchewan >S7N 5B4 =82Canada > > =20 <") ,-''/^ ^`\ ~,~~''``^-..=20 (.) , ) \ `\=20 (`) . o ) ) )\ (`\/ (' / .) \=20 `-//..^ \__/ ( ) \ // \ ( ,) /\ / `/( /^~~--~~~^`( ) '|=20 / | ( .) ( / ( .) =20 /-.\ /-.| /-.| /-.| (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) Ivory Haven - Laura the Elephant's House on the Web: Learn more about Laura and all elephants.. http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248 http://www.newaygo.com/MI-Living ICQ WorldWide Pager for Sheree at: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2602279 From: IN%"ivoryhaven@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" 14-JUL-1998 23:47:51.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Mourning and Elephants I am mainly just a lurker since I am not an ethologist - though I do work with animals and live on a farm. There are two elephants on our farm and from over 10 years of observation, applied to the mourning and elephant question, that perhaps elephants remain with their dead (or check out their bones) because after a death they are not yet ready to let go or leave the body much the same way many humans stay with their human and other animal friends after they die. Regarding the bones..based on my experiences with elephants, recognizing how intelligent they are from daily observations and interactions (having basically been accepted as one of the "herd" which is slightly unique compared to observations of elephants in the wild or at different type of facility where there is no such bond..) I believe they just recognize that the bones beolong to their own species and this peaks their interest. I also believe that upon returning to the same site they remember the particular elephant that they may have known who died there . I do not believe they recognize specific bones anymore than I would if I came across the bones of someone I knew but if I had been there when they died I would certainly link the two together and be curious.....elephants are extremely curious. Our female elephant, Laura has her own dog. She has raised him from a pup which she use to carry in her trunk. He is over 12 now which is old for an Australian Shepherd. I think I will have a better understanding of elephants mourning when he dies. Even more so if something were to happen to my husband because she has been with him for 12 years. I hope she outlives us however and I do not have the opportunity to research thast first hand. I am certain that my children will know some more answers then. Regards, Sheree Walters From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jonathan Bowen" 15-JUL-1998 05:07:34.31 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Whatever it is that has made Marthe so cross. I am surprised by Marthe's opinions on veterinary surgeons becoming involved in behavioural medicine. Firstly, I think that it is great that people with so many different backgrounds are involved in the subject, and that includes vets. Secondly, I would think that it would be of benefit to everyone if all veterinary surgeons were better informed about the ethology of the animals they treat, learning theory etc.... I agree with Robin Walker regarding veterinary education. Ethology should be a core subject. So should ethics, welfare, 'human-animal interactions' and some human psychology. This would produce competent, considerate graduates who have a better understanding of their role, and their relationship to patients and clients. It would be far preferable to the kind of sausage machine that currently exists, and requires a complete rethinking of exactly what graduates need to know. It would best to change the focus of the course, and give graduates a further year of well supported postgraduate education during their first year in practice (like pharmacists get). Jon