From: IN%"mappleby99@hotmail.com" "Mike Appleby" 16-JUL-1999 10:11:49.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dorothy et al We have a section on attitudes in our book 'Poultry Production Systems: Behaviour, Management & Welfare' (Appleby, Hughes and Elson, 1992)which you may find useful. It includes the only hard evidence I know of on variation in attitudes across Europe, as shown at governmental level rather than just in individuals: some years after the Council of Europe Convention on Welfare of Farm Animals had been drawn up, it had been ratified by about half the countries concerned. Not surprisingly these were predominantly from north and east Europe. A striking fact was that there was a distinct difference between the signatories and non-signatories in the proportion of population working in agriculture - the former much less than the latter. Two likely explanations: animal welfare is more of an issue in urban than rural populations, and governments of countries with many people in agriculture have to take more account of that constituency. I forget the reference, but it's in the book. Mike > From: "dorothy.mckeegan" To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: European attitudes to farm animal welfare Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:19:01 +0100 Dear List, I am having trouble finding references/info concerning cultural differences across Europe in attitudes towards farm animal welfare (particularly differences between northern and southern European countries). I am also seeking information about factors affecting an individual's attitide to farm animal welfare (e.g. age, sex, job). Does anyone know of any relevant studies? Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks very much Dorothy McKeegan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 16-JUL-1999 12:53:39.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: carrying cat Speaking of caching one's prey, I just couldn't resist adding my anecdote-- Years ago we had an intelligent and determined neutered tom, appropriately named Lordly. Lordly had access to house, basement, and yard. One day my mother went down into the basement and found an old open shoebox, containing several ex-mice carefully lined up within the box. A good example of caching! -- Ione Ione L. Smith, DVM, Department of Comparative Medicine University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine ========================================== http://web.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://web.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/ETDR.html East Tennessee Doberman Rescue ========================================== Life is what happens when you've made other plans.--John Lennon From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 16-JUL-1999 13:42:54.86 To: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "'Ione Smith'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: carrying cat Deb McW and I had continued this off the list in case Joe was back! However, here is one to share. In London in 1969 I attended a Siamese cat with conjunctivitis. The owner returned in embarrassment for several repeat prescriptions of eye ointment. The excuse was that they seemed to mislay the tubes. Some months after the cat was cured the owner popped in to the Clinic to announce the discovery of the missing ointment tubes. It had been the custom to put the ointment on the shelf of a Welsh dresser in the dining room. On redecorating the kitchen six tubes of Chloromycetin eye ointment were discovered under the refrigerator. They were against the wall. The conclusion was that the cat had taken the ointment tubes down from the dresser, into the adjacent kitchen and batted them under the refrigerator with some force. Was this a isolated flash of organised thought in a mammalian brain with slightly better synaptic complexity than the norm? Was it a variation on a caching behaviour? -----Original Message----- From: Ione Smith [SMTP:ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu] Sent: 16 July 1999 15:55 To: Applied ethology Subject: Re: carrying cat Speaking of caching one's prey, I just couldn't resist adding my anecdote-- Years ago we had an intelligent and determined neutered tom, appropriately named Lordly. Lordly had access to house, basement, and yard. One day my mother went down into the basement and found an old open shoebox, containing several ex-mice carefully lined up within the box. A good example of caching! -- Ione Ione L. Smith, DVM, Department of Comparative Medicine University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine ========================================== http://web.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://web.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/ETDR.html East Tennessee Doberman Rescue ========================================== Life is what happens when you've made other plans.--John Lennon From: IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu" "Kale H. McE. Kevan" 16-JUL-1999 21:11:30.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: carrying cat On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Robin Walker wrote: > Was this a isolated flash of organised thought in a mammalian brain with > slightly better synaptic complexity than the norm? > > Was it a variation on a caching behaviour? No idea. Charlie (the carrying cat I asked about) arranged his owner's collection of forty-something 'beanie babies' in a circle around the bed. With the bedroom door closed, he put them in a line from one end of the loft to the other. Thanks to everybody who responded. Charlie's owners have spoken to a behavior professional about the problem and are feeling confident that they can deal with the behavior, and Charlie can keep his new home. From: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com" 16-JUL-1999 21:41:33.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fwd: Cold-Blooded Hello everyone, I received a letter concerning using reptiles as teaching aids and for the concern of their welfare. Would you who are familar with this topic mind responding with any information that may help? If you respond directly to the writer, would you be so kind as to send a copy to myself? Thank you in advance, George >Return-path: >Received: from aol.com (rly-yd01.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.1]) > by air-yd03.mx.aol.com (v59.55) with SMTP; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:54:15 -0400 >Received: from web601.yahoomail.com (web1104.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.124]) > by rly-yd01.mx.aol.com (vx) with SMTP; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:54:05 -0400 >Received: from [131.183.101.54] by web1104.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, > 12 Jul 1999 13:53:50 PDT >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:53:50 -0700 (PDT) >From: Terri R >Subject: Cold-Blooded >To: PETBEHVR@aol.com >Message-id: <19990712205350.976.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> >MIME-version: 1.0 >Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > >I came across your address as a link through APBC. > >I'm seeking some kind of info regarding the use of reptiles w/children. >I have and have used a boa and 3 legged turtle (no, that's not how the >leg was lost - she was a pet store rescue by my son) with children. >It's usually done in small special ed type classrooms with a limited >number of kids. I'm trying to find info about using them in AAA or AAT >but I can only find info about warm blooded animal use. Most of the >kids I work with are SBH (severe behavior handicapped) and they respond >VERY well to the 'unique' animals I have (they relate to the critters >on that level to). Unfortunately, not everyone trusts reptiles. >Actually, at the risk of sounding like abuse, Mia (the boa) was being >introduced to a young child w/Autism who actually showed interest in >this living thing (VERY new behavior for child). Mia was sooooo >tolerant of this child fervently trying to 'hold' her head (despite the >diligent attempts by 2 adults to prevent this action) she never opened >her mouth, hissed, or moved away. Her behavior was consistent w/me >afterward as well. > >As for the animals' comfort, I generally have that in front. I have >found lizards don't seem to adapt well to this type of exposure but the >snake and turtle seem to do well. They both interact w/out avoidance, >they both eat well all of the time, they are not shedding or sleeping >any more or less. > >Anyway, do you have any info about the animals' welfare as involved >w/short-term limited interactions w/ small numbers of people or >long-term more involved interactions w/a very limited number of people? >The 'safety' for people under same conditions? My prof (although >terrified) is interested in my introducing a program at a local >juvenile jail we deal with. > >Thanks for any input you can/will provide. >Terri >triches@pop3.utoledo.edu or >snakelady_1@yaho.com > > > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 17-JUL-1999 07:17:08.24 To: IN%"snakelady_1@yahoo.com" "Terri R", IN%"cpquinlan@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cold-Blooded Hello Terri!!! I have done research in nutritional pathology of reptiles (lizards and aquatic turtles) with the Ontario Veterinary College (Canada). The results of my research indicate at least 90% of captive reptiles experience morbidity and/or mortality because of inappropriate husbandry. Your questions: > on that level to). Unfortunately, not everyone trusts reptiles. > Actually, at the risk of sounding like abuse, Mia (the boa) was being > introduced to a young child w/Autism who actually showed interest in > this living thing (VERY new behavior for child). Mia was sooooo > tolerant of this child fervently trying to 'hold' her head (despite the Snakes are not my forte. A friend of mine specializes and snakes and may be willing to discuss this with you. It is important, when handling any reptile, to consider their level of cognitive function. They have a brain with very little cortex which implies limited "higher level" functions. The reptile brain is largely "brain stem functions" which are reactive as opposed to proactive. This means they are concerned largely with eating, sleeping, reproduction, defense, aggression, etc. in response to environmental stimuli. The difference in brain anatomy between mammals and reptiles also implies that we (humans) are extremely limited with intuitive understanding of their behaviours and motivations for behaviour. > As for the animals' comfort, I generally have that in front. I have > found lizards don't seem to adapt well to this type of exposure but the > snake and turtle seem to do well. They both interact w/out avoidance, > they both eat well all of the time, they are not shedding or sleeping > any more or less. I have taken some of my aquatic turtles into classrooms and they do appear comfortable. Given the choice, however, they will escape from the situation and hide. Tolerance for handling also appears individualistic - for example, two of my turtles (old and large) appear to handle this situation better than all my other turtles (out of 10). Please note my use of "appears". Note: my use of turtles in the classroom is for teaching exercises on the animal welfare problems of keeping reptiles as pets (don't - these animals usually suffer as pets and most die). > The 'safety' for people under same conditions? My prof (although > terrified) is interested in my introducing a program at a local > juvenile jail we deal with. Juvenile offenders also appear to have limited cortex activity and rely on brain stem functions - maybe they have a lot in common with reptiles? Considerations: 1) Turtles (ANY species) will grab fingers and not let go. Larger turtles could remove a child's finger. 2) Boas, once they begin squeezing their victim, may have to be killed to release the "prey". On the plus side: my experiences have been successful in: 1) Teaching respect and understanding for species much different than us. 2) What do you do if you see a turtle, frog, snake, etc. at the river (camping, in your yard, etc.)? LEAVE IT ALONE. 3) Reptiles as pets require complex environmental factors that cost a lot of money. Most people do not have the knowledge and funds to care for reptiles. Reptiles - as any exotic anmals - are not suitable for pets. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 17-JUL-1999 10:33:46.92 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cold-Blooded Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > It is important, when handling any reptile, to consider their > level of cognitive function. They have a brain with very little > cortex which implies limited "higher level" functions. I gotta jump in here for just a minute on a bit of a tangent. Be careful when generalizing about brain structures across animal groups. Birds, for instance, also have very little cortex -- yet birds such as psittacines are quite good at many higher level functions. In their case cognition is based in the striatal structures (hyperstriatum, etc.); *perhaps* (I don't know this, but it's worth a thought or two) reptile cognition is also centered in areas other than the cortex. Avoid mammaliocentrism when possible. ;-) -- Ione ========================================== http://web.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://web.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/ETDR.html East Tennessee Doberman Rescue ========================================== Life is what happens when you've made other plans.--John Lennon From: IN%"v8350@bealenet.com" 18-JUL-1999 07:49:45.07 To: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Fwd: Cold-Blooded George, I fwded the query to an expert reptile rehabilitator who responded as follows: >Melissa Kaplan is an expert on the use of reptiles in educational >settings. The appropriate URL is: >http://www.sonic.net/~melissk/rep_ed.html >There are other articles available at the same site. >There are an increasing number of research papers being released on >stress in handling. Vivarium recently published a paper (this quarter's >issue, I believe) on the subject. There is a chapter in ACKERMAN, L. ed. >The Biology, Husbandry and Health Care of Reptiles. T.F.H. 1996 as well. >I believe both of those articles have references. >Hope this helps! Regards, Mary Mary Smith v8350@bealenet.com Woodford, Va. U.S.A. WRL, RAWRN state lic. squirrels since '78 ______________________________ From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "appleby" 19-JUL-1999 02:21:38.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: carrying cat In article <01BECC4E.E546F260@s44.pool.pm3-tele-1.cix.co.uk>, Robin Walker writes >The notion that cats bring prey home for their owners is universal >and, I suspect, wholly anthropomorphic. > >I think the cat is looking to cache its prey for future consumption >but has "forgotten" (lost the evolutionary program) how. > >A box of sandy soil or loose leaves and twigs might provide >a caching area. Perhaps "Mommy" needs to show how to do it :-) What do we think is the adaptive value of caching food in an animal that evolved is semi-desert conditions? The notion that it would eat meat that would undoubtedly become rancid before being recovered seems to be at odds with the cat's normal fastidiousness. I can see the adaptive advantage of: - Burying food as discussed in Bonnie Beaver's book i.e. when food is too plentiful organic material is buried as if it were faeces because it poses less threat to survival. Behaviour made more likely to occur by the fact that the hunting drive is triggered by the movement of prey despite food already available in the form of what has already been caught or provided by humans. - Returning back to the core of the territory with prey to feed offspring. - Returning to the safer area of the core of the territory to consume food. According to Roger Tabor's book this has an additional adaptive value in that any pay not successfully dispatched and that manages to escape once released may increase the food supply around the core area. Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 19-JUL-1999 08:56:13.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cold-Blooded Hi Ione! You wrote: > > Be careful when generalizing about brain structures across animal > groups. Birds, for instance, also have very little cortex -- yet birds > such as psittacines are quite good at many higher level functions. In > their case cognition is based in the striatal structures (hyperstriatum, > etc.); *perhaps* (I don't know this, but it's worth a thought or two) > reptile cognition is also centered in areas other than the cortex. Great point and I agree. It also supports my original point that we have less of an "intuitive" understanding of reptiles (and birds) because their brains are structured differently. There is much to learn of both reptilian and avian cognitive function - fascinating area!!! (Although, of course, still much to learn about our own (mammalian) as well). DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 19-JUL-1999 10:06:34.63 To: IN%"cpquinlan@aol.com", IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"snakelady_1@yahoo.com" CC: Subj: RE: Cold-Blooded >>> This means they are concerned largely with eating, sleeping, reproduction, defense, aggression, etc. in response to environmental stimuli. Sound like reptiles and humans are not that far apart, behaviorally speaking. Paul From: IN%"V.W.Koch@usda.gov" "V W Koch" 19-JUL-1999 18:13:33.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Fwd: Cold-Blooded Reptiles are carriers of Salmonella, and people using them for teaching need to be very aware of this fact. Children (elderly, immunocompromised, etc.) are particularly susceptible. If they are allowed to handle the animals, they should be told to wash their hands afterwards. Since they are likely to ignore this advice, it would be best to have a situation where they can be made to wash their hands. Liability could be significant if an epidemic were initiated by someone who "should have known better." It has happened! Wendy Koch v.w.koch@usda.gov From: IN%"Beat.Huber@esh.unibe.ch" 20-JUL-1999 03:00:37.95 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: e-mail Gross / Siegel Dear all does anyone knows the e-mail address of the two authors of the paper below ? Gross, W.B. & Siegel, H. S. 1983. Evaluation of the heterophil / lymphocyte ratio as a measure of stress in chickens. Avian Diseases 27, 972-979. *********************************************** Dr. B. Huber-Eicher Universitaet Bern Zoologisches Institut Abt. Sozial- und Nutztierethologie Ethologische Station Hasli Wohlenstr. 50 a CH - 3032 Hinterkappelen Tel: ++41 31 631 91 54 or ++41 31 631 91 11 Fax: ++41 31 631 91 41 e-mail: beat.huber@esh.unibe.ch *********************************************** From: IN%"jpgarner@ucdavis.edu" 20-JUL-1999 07:12:24.56 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "'Robin Walker'", IN%"heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk" "'Sarah Heath'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"BLHART@ucdavis.edu" "Benjamin Hart (Internet)" CC: Subj: RE: Thioridazine Hi all, ooops, Just realised a mis-information. Ben Hart, is also, in fact foremost, an ethologist. He teaches animal behaviour at the vet school here at UCD, and runs a behaviour therapy clinic. Cheers Joe From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 20-JUL-1999 07:29:32.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Fwd: Cold-Blooded Thanks Wendy!!! Important point other than behavioural considerations. I incorporate this into my teaching as part of the difference in species. Children, for example, want to know why they can get sick from Salmonella but the turtle does not. Teachers are great - most provide washing facilities with extra adults for supervision. DebMcW > Date sent: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:23:06 -0600 > From: V W Koch > Subject: Re: Fwd: Cold-Blooded > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Priority: 3 > Reptiles are carriers of Salmonella, and people using them for teaching need to be very aware of this fact. Children (elderly, immunocompromised, etc.) are particularly susceptible. If they are al > owed to handle the animals, they should be told to wash their hands afterwards. Since they are likely to ignore this advice, it would be best to have a situation where they can be made to wash thei > hands. Liability could be significant if an epidemic were initiated by someone who "should have known better." It has happened! > > Wendy Koch > v.w.koch@usda.gov > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 21-JUL-1999 13:10:18.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: A horse as a portable blind Dear All, We are just wrapping up another summer of observations of cattle on extensive range and I am interested in your thoughts and explanations on our cattle's response to humans in the presence of a horse. Our observations take place on a community pasture that is over 1 sqaure mile in area and contains over 200 cows, their calves and 7 breeding bulls. The cattle originate from 7 or 8 different patrons and are together during the summer grazing period (late May to early Oct) and are returned to their respective homes each winter. It is possible that some of the cattle from different ranches would have been together previous years, but they obviously would have different origin, breeding, experiences, etc. and in no way do they represent a homogenous group. The area is classified as a short grass prairie, but has considerable bush (ie. stands of aspen, birch trees etc.) that breaks up the open areas. No known predators (other than man) exist in this area. During our first year we tried to conduct observations on foot (the observer was neither skilled nor interested in riding a horse). ALL the cattle consistently ran off at the mere sight of a person on foot and habituated very little, if any, during the summer to the observer's presence. Obviously, many of these cattle were around people on foot at their home farm or ranch, but all acted "wild" while at the community pasture in the presence of a person on foot. However, when the same cattle were in holding pens and corals the cattle did not show this "wild" response nor try to run off or escape the area when approached by someone on foot. The second year's observations were conducted on horse back. All three observers were instructed to stay a reasonable distance from the cattle and take caution not to have their presence influence the cattle's behaviour. It became obvious during the summer that the cattle did not fear riders (as they had feared observers on foot the previous year). Some of the cattle may have been the same animals from the previous year, probably many were different animals from the previous year. By the third year (last summer) we were confident that the cattle did not respond to our presence on horseback and cattle often grazed unconcerned near our horses, much like the response you see from zebras grazing with wildebeast or other African herbivores grazing and tolerating other species within the same setting. We never gave it too much thought why they accepted us, we were just relieved that we could be amongst them without any evidence that they paid us any attention. Again the individual animals on the pasture we were watching were probably changing from year to year, with the possibility that some were the same. This summer I was further impressed by the "horse-as-a-blind" effect. I am not the most skilled horseman (you really don't want the details on how bad I actually am). Therefore, I would often dismount while taking notes on my observations. At first I was careful to put myself on the opposite side of the horse from the cattle and even tried to align myself with the legs of the horse so as not to scare the cattle. It soon became obvious that the cattle paid little attention to me regardless of the side of the horse I was standing on. They even paid no attention if I was wallking in front of the horse. Even if I was 3 ft in front of the horse, or 5 ft or 10 ft! As long as I was remotely connected to the horse the cattle accepted the horse and I as just another species sharing the resources. This was true for all of us observing the cattle and we often dismounted and sat on the ground or stood if the cattle were not moving. Sometimes as the cattle were moving or grazing away we could simply walk, leading our horse and we could still move within the cattle without raising any concern. They never changed their grazing, resting, breeding or any other behaviour, as best we could tell, due to our presence. I thought, "Perhaps these cattle accept people on foot afterall." However, that proved to be a wrong assumption. If we ever walked out on the pasture without a horse, the cattle would immediately run. I tried approaching several different groups from several different angles and the response was always the same - as soon as the cattle or calves spotted me they would run off. When we are on a horse or just in the presence of a hores we are accepted. Bottom line, horses make a great blind for observing cattle, but why? I would be curious to know what principles are acting here. Any ideas? Are we accepted because the horse shows no fear of us? Does the horse somehow dimish the preception of our size - since we appear "smaller" than the horse? Does the horse negate our upright posture? I tell you there is something amazing that is happening here and it goes beyond the simple explanation that a rider on a horse is not as threatening as a person on foot, since our cattle accept people on foot as non-threatening as long as they are in some proximity to a horse. The previous experiences of the cattle do not seem to me to be the likely explanation for their behaviour, since the group is composed of cattle from 8 different owners, some of which work cattle on horseback some of which do not. Some owners seem harsh with their cattle others do not. No one that we know of has ever threatened these cattle on foot while at the community pasture, but all of the cattle have been herded and driven by cowboys on horses while at the pastures. Some of the cattle and calves would have been roped and treated by the cowboys on horseback during their stay at the community pasture. On the surface it would seem our cattle would have more to fear from riders than a person on foot. Anyway, all of this is interesting to me and if you have similar experiences or ideas I would be pleased to hear from you. Also if anyone is interested in some good cattle blinds we are done with the horses for another year and I am sure we could make you a deal! Sincerely, Joe Stookey ------------------------------ Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 From: IN%"johnwade@ethological.com" "John Wade" 21-JUL-1999 13:31:18.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology List" CC: Subj: Blind Horses :) An interesting post. I've wondered the same thing myself about deer as they are no where nears as skittish when I'm on horseback. Looking forward to further posts. John Wade Canine Behaviour Specialist Ontario Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals 9 Commissioners Road East Suite 1004 London, Ontario Canada N6C 5Z7 johnwade@home.com johnwade@ethological.com 519-457-9779 - Office 519-649-2230 - Facsimile From: IN%"billings@umich.edu" 21-JUL-1999 14:08:50.01 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: A horse as a portable blind This is a rather off-the-cuff idea about the horses as a portable blind. Could the horses be preventing the observers from "staring-down" the cattle, thus making you appear less predatory? Whether on horseback or leading a horse it's necessary to pay attention to the horse, so that would mean less time looking directly in the direction of the cattle. Do the cattle react the same to a person on foot even if the person is facing away from them or looking at the ground or wearing a cap so their eyes were obscured rather than looking directly at them (not that I would be any more willing to turn my back on a herd of cattle than on a horse...just a thought)? Best wishes, Heather From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 21-JUL-1999 14:36:21.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Stalking-horse stalking-horse n. A horse or a figure like a horse behind which a sportsman conceals himself. The Concise English Dictionary 1992 Shakespeare uses it (of course!) As You Like It V 4 111 Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 21-JUL-1999 15:21:03.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: But Why? Looking at the endless wildlife movies that pour out the TV I get the feeling that ungulates seem to share grazing with remarkable equanimity. Perhaps they just evolved that way. After all grass is a fairly open resource like the sea where many fish cohabit with equanimity. Perhaps the fine detail of another compatible and non-predatory species' body is not very important. A client of mine built a wooden Friesian cow. It consisted of two cow profiles held together by a bench seat upon which the man sat. When he was in the hide the "cow" had six legs. This was not acceptable to other cows but there were none in his paddock. Rabbits however seemed uninterested in the number of legs or the curious immobility of the "cow" and came out to be shot consistently. (There were real Friesians in all the fields around.) Maybe a six legged ungulate which quietly elongates from time to time forms no mismatch in the cows vigilance circuits. Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"emily.patterson-kane@vuw.ac.nz" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 21-JUL-1999 15:30:34.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: conference enquiry Hi all I will be working in the States for a year (Bradley Illinois). I would = like to here about any welfare of enrichment conferences in the States. = These may have been posted before, but I would have disregarded them as = to far away. Also I would love to here from anyone in the = Bradley/Chicago area who might let me drop into their lab whilst I am = there. Emily=20 From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" "Chris Rutt" 21-JUL-1999 16:01:30.94 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "List Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Blind Horses :) John Wade's comments on behaviour of deer tempt me to relate that I have found birds and small mammals are easily observed from horse back as compared with a walk through the woods. Their "flee distance" in reduced to a few yards in most cases. Best wishes Chris (UK) rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/zoo.htm -----Original Message----- From: John Wade To: Ethology List Date: 21 July 1999 20:34 Subject: Blind Horses :) >An interesting post. I've wondered the same thing myself about deer as they >are no where nears as skittish when I'm on horseback. Looking forward to >further posts. > >John Wade >Canine Behaviour Specialist >Ontario Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals >9 Commissioners Road East Suite 1004 >London, Ontario Canada >N6C 5Z7 > >johnwade@home.com >johnwade@ethological.com > >519-457-9779 - Office >519-649-2230 - Facsimile > > From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 21-JUL-1999 16:42:52.89 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: But Why? On Wed, 21 Jul 1999, Robin Walker wrote: > (much deleted) > > Maybe a six legged ungulate which quietly elongates from time to > time forms no mismatch in the cows vigilance circuits. I guess I would buy that explanation as to our acceptance by the cattle if 1) we were always within a close physical proximity to the horse or visually represented a contiguous connection with the horse or 2) our physical separations from the horse were always observed by the cattle from start to finish and they preceived us as one entity that separated into parts. However, we often found that when we dismounted to take notes the horses would begin to graze away and around us, but the cattle still accepted us even if the horses grazed 12 feet or more from us. Also, it happened so often and we were physically separated from the horse for such long periods of time that I doubt all the cattle even viewed the dismounting and separation or that the cattle would continually view us as a part of the horse that has separated hours after the "separation" had occured. A more accurate analogy would be that we had our ticket-for-entry into the "herd" stamped by the horse. I could sort of envision Gary Larson's cows checking for outsiders and remarking, "Hey, what is this Human doing here? Oh! Sorry, I didn't see you were with a horse. It's okay." It was really a strange phenomenon to see the acceptance of us by the cows, calves and bulls while they grazed, rested and bred right around us. I suppose the lack of alarm by the horse to our presence could explain some of the response. Alternatively, the skittish behaviour of only one cow when it observes a lone person on foot could cascade through the entire herd. But there seems to be something about how we are preceived by cattle while in the presence of a horse that still has me puzzled, as if there is some uncovered phenomenon bubbling below the surface of our understanding. Or maybe I have been in the sun too long or fallen off a horse one too many times! Either way, I have come to realize that even a bad day on the range observing cattle is better than a good day in the office reading about psychotic cats and dogs! :) Joe Stookey ====================== Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicince and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 From: IN%"DottieDais@aol.com" 21-JUL-1999 22:56:24.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Stalking-dog? It's fascinating to speculate about what may be going on here. Having no extensive background in ethology, I wouldn't begin to conjecture. However, I observed a similar experience while living in Ireland and feel I can conclude with some certainty that animals communicate in ways we may never understand and that they exist outside the realm of body language, vocalization, etc. - perceptible signals. I use to walk the fields around our farm in Ireland with a wonderful old mutt, a medium sized terrier mix named Bran. He was my faithful companion on all my long walks in the countryside and always stayed close by my side. Whenever we took a short cut through a pasture with grazing cattle, the cattle barely paid us heed - moving out of our way, but not scattering or acting frightened in any way. However, when I would walked without Bran through the same field, the cattle would scatter and separate before I was even near them! I always felt Bran communicated some sense of calm to them, assuring them that I wasn't threatening or out to do them harm. There's a level of communication outside our human boundaries that animals seem aware of and that evades our understanding - of this I'm sure. I wonder if we ever participated in this and, if so, when we lost our ability to do so? Regards, Chris Hurley Small Animal Program San Francisco Animal Care & Control From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 22-JUL-1999 00:40:26.67 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: A horse as a portable blind Hi Joe, So you're home, home from the range. Here's my guess as to what is happening, however it is just surmise: Ungulates live in herds because, among other things, this is a great anti-predator strategy. A grazing ungulate is at a disadvantage because, with its head so close to the ground, it can't observe approaching predators. So the herd synchronizes its behavior patterns to the other animals in the herd and they graze and rest together. If a herd is grazing and one animal on the periphery spots something moving, its head will come up, alerting nearby animals and the ripple effect will go through the herd until every animal is watching. If one animal jumps and then runs, the rest of the herd will often run as well. But if everyone is grazing and not alarmed, then there is no point in being alarmed by the approach of another ungulate which is also grazing, or at least ambling in a relaxed manner. There are great advantages to a social awareness. When you are watching the cattle from foot, you are doing a very predator-like movement pattern which alarms the cattle, so that they skedaddle. But if you are on or beside a horse, this is another ungulate and it is behaving in a relaxed way. You are not a danger to the horse, so this signals the herd that there is no danger. If the horse bolted and ran, the herd probably would as well. I also suspect that when you are clear up on the back of the horse, the cattle really don't see you much at all. If you want to observe on foot, you might try the "lost wallet routine" which wildlife biologists frequently use to observe wild ungulates. If you go out in the field and try to directly follow a herd of deer or flock of Bighorn sheep, they will flee from you. If you try to sneak up on them, they will flee as soon as they spot you. But if you walk right out into the open, where they can see you, but pay them no mind and search the ground as though you are looking for a lost wallet, you can get quite close to them. I have tried this technique with my domestic sheep and it is quite effective. However, if at any time you turn your attention to them and look at them directly, they flee. Perhaps next summer, you should investigate what specific postures and motion patterns in walking humans alarm the cows. >Anyway, all of this is interesting to me and if you have similar >experiences or ideas I would be pleased to hear from you. Also if anyone >is interested in some good cattle blinds we are done with the horses for >another year and I am sure we could make you a deal! Your post did take me back to summers of yesteryear when I was young and would spend practically the entire summer on horseback. I would be glad to take one of your 'cattle blinds' off your hands (my old gelding died last year) but I suspect that transportation costs wouldn't make it much of a deal.... > Best wishes, Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS Moscow, Idaho From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 22-JUL-1999 01:12:35.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: The answer is Minnows! By Jove I think I've got! I slept on it d'you see? If you are a herd or shoal creature the mechanism for escape from "danger" is mass flight. If there are thousands of you (and in the "good old days" there were thousands) you cannot personally check the validity of flight behaviour. You take your cue from the next guy and go in the same direction. The first point of reference is what the individual closest to the threat does. The horse's behaviour is "non-flight" and it is nearest. I'll wager that if the horse spooks the cattle are gone. This must be why the Zebra watches the lions eat his fellow with that alert, interested demeanour but seems more interested in the next mouthful of grass than the event of predation. The cue for flight is a fellow running from the lion not being sat on by it. Life in the ocean or on the prairie would be exhausting if the shoal, bait ball, buffalo herd etc did not have some selectivity about this escape behaviour. I think it boils down to vectors. Which enables cross species referencing. I will watch what you do unless I am closest and then I will watch what "he" does. If he ambles past in that direction I will just stay here doing this. If he lopes toward me I will edge off the vector line. If he alters course toward me I will run. [Note. Dear Dottie Dais. If you head towards us with that "mystic" glint in your eye - we will all flee :-). Last week another couple with a dog were rushed by heifers. They let go of the dog lead but the heifers knocked down the man and trampled him to death.] Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"johnwade@ethological.com" "John Wade" 22-JUL-1999 01:23:29.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology List" CC: Subj: Robin's minnow theory. Neat theory Robin, Now Joe get back on your horse and spook him. Let us know what happens. Do it several times so we can be sure. John Wade Canine Behaviour Specialist Ontario Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals 9 Commissioners Road East Suite 1004 London, Ontario Canada N6C 5Z7 johnwade@home.com johnwade@ethological.com 519-457-9779 - Office 519-649-2230 - Facsimile From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 22-JUL-1999 03:19:05.97 To: IN%"johnwade@ethological.com" "John Wade" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology List" Subj: RE: Robin's minnow theory. Dear All, Robin's minnow theory might explain the spread of dispersal behaviour within the group, but it does not explain why the first animal to flee from a human does so at a shorter flight distance when the human is accompanied by a horse. My own thought is that the cattle/sheep have a mental representation of humans (don't forget Keith Kendrick's work showing that sheep can recognise individual humans), and generally respond to this as a threat. But, this becomes confused or nullified when the human is in close spatial association with a non-predator. Or, are we being too anthropocentric in this? Does anyone know if sheep or cattle use olfaction in their determination of when to flee? Perhaps a close association with horses masks our human smell...just a thought. AlternativeIy, I suspect cattle and sheep have had few instances where a human+horse has caused them to feel threatened...this has usually ocurred as human - horse (don't we have to dismount to perform handling procedures?), so, the cattle have learnt not to feel threatened and flee until the human dismounts and becomes separated from the horse. However, this does not explain why it is possible to approach wild animals (e.g. deer, which have never been handled) more closely when on horseback, something I have experienced myself. If the cattle are responding to a horse+human as one of the herd, this could easily be assessed by determining whether the individual and flight distances for members of the herd are the same as those for the horse-human, horse+human, and human alone. Any takers? ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 22-JUL-1999 03:27:40.28 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: A horse as a portable blind Not a direct answer as far as cattle concerns, but a related matter: Anecdote: My retired biology teacher from grammar school, Mr. Van Bavinckhove, has built a kind of horse like clowns use: a "papier-m=E2ch=E9" head and a black cloth body around wire. One person walks "in" the front legs, the other one "in" the hind ones (on the video he gave me, that horse is always pacing; they didn't learn to coordinate a natural walk yet!). The purpose is to get nearer to birds in order to take pictures. I couls scan you a photograph if you like or get you in touch with him. He consulted me whether entering nature reserve with feral horses might be dangerous. As Grzimek demonstrated already in 48 that elementary silhouettes were greeted like conspecifics, there is some danger indeed that harem stallions could attack them. My advice was to look as quickly as possible not like a horse, e.g. make the horse fall apart instantly in two with a zip (if the zip ever gets stuck, keep filming for posterity please...). Maybe he will have as much awe as Moctezuma when seeing Cortez dismount. - Grzimek,B.(1948): Begr=FCssung zweir Pferden. Das Erkennen von Phantomen und Bildern. Z.f.Tierpsychol., 5, 465-480 - Remember K. Zeeb's "Quadrupedentest" The experiences related in this discussion is interesting for the management of nature reserves and other protected areas. In my country, the administration often forbids riders entering reserves along the visitor's paths, arguing horses destroy too much nature. My experience is on the contrary that people walking (especially if they have a dog on a leash!) frighten much more the fauna. In the meanwhile those paths are used by tractors to pull fallen or cullen trees, while experienced forest managers are going back to horses for that job ("d=E9bardage" in french). I'm afraid in the flemish part of Belgium some of our civil servants are misgiven ideologists and have somewhat the aggressive attitude that all horse people must be rich upper-class snobs who should be annoyed as much as one can. Anyone with related experience? FO=D6 Prof.Dr.F.O.=D6dberg Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: +32-(0)9-2647849 From: IN%"taylora@ican.net" 22-JUL-1999 07:00:32.48 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: A horse as a portable blind Janice, I agree with everything you said, with one small exception; or maybe it's better phrased as a question: For horses, they are actually in a better position to spot predators when grazing, because their head is on a long, swivel-y neck, their eyes are widely spaced, and all the only obstruction to their view when grazing is their (relatively fine) legs. When standing (head up), they have a significant blind spot behind them due to the bulk of their bodies etc. When they do spot something moving in their peripheral (i.e., 2-D) vision, the head comes up to get a better look, using their (relatively narrow) field of stereoscopic vision. Horses have fixed retinas (have I got that right?) and so have to move their heads a lot to adequately focus on things. This may also (secondarily), of course, signal to herdmates that something maybe amiss. I had always assumed that the same applied to cattle and to other grazing ungulates, but would love to be corrected if this assumption is wong. Allison Janice Willard wrote: >A grazing > ungulate is at a disadvantage because, with its head so close to the > ground, it can't observe approaching predators. -- Allison Taylor, PhD taylora@ican.net Animal Behaviourist Freelance Journalist & Desktop Publisher List-Sitter: Longears Email List (Donkeys, Mules, & Hinnies) From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 22-JUL-1999 07:27:52.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A horse as a portable blind Hello Everyone! Occam's Razor? Joe said the cattle have been handled by cowboys on horseback. Are they habituated to this "stimulus"? Test: A group of naive cattle (never experienced a human on horseback) and give them the cowboy treatment. Record the cattle's reaction. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 22-JUL-1999 07:38:53.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A horse as a portable blind Dear All, Is it possible that the other cattle do not fear you because they interpret your association with the horse as, "The predator (the human) has already caught its prey (the four-legged creature: the horse), and that therefore, we (the cattle) are safe as long as the predator is occupied by its prey?" Just a thought, Chantal :-) joseph.stookey@usask.ca wrote: > > Dear All, > > We are just wrapping up another summer of observations of cattle on > extensive range and I am interested in your thoughts and explanations on > our cattle's response to humans in the presence of a horse. Our > observations take place on a community pasture that is over 1 sqaure mile > in area and contains over 200 cows, their calves and 7 breeding bulls. > The cattle originate from 7 or 8 different patrons and are together during > the summer grazing period (late May to early Oct) and are returned to > their respective homes each winter. It is possible that some of the > cattle from different ranches would have been together previous years, but > they obviously would have different origin, breeding, experiences, etc. > and in no way do they represent a homogenous group. The area is classified > as a short grass prairie, but has considerable bush (ie. stands of aspen, > birch trees etc.) that breaks up the open areas. No known predators (other > than man) exist in this area. > > During our first year we tried to conduct observations on foot (the > observer was neither skilled nor interested in riding a horse). ALL the > cattle consistently ran off at the mere sight of a person on foot and > habituated very little, if any, during the summer to the observer's > presence. Obviously, many of these cattle were around people on foot at > their home farm or ranch, but all acted "wild" while at the community > pasture in the presence of a person on foot. However, when the same > cattle were in holding pens and corals the cattle did not show this "wild" > response nor try to run off or escape the area when approached by someone > on foot. > > The second year's observations were conducted on horse back. All three > observers were instructed to stay a reasonable distance from the cattle > and take caution not to have their presence influence the cattle's > behaviour. It became obvious during the summer that the cattle did not > fear riders (as they had feared observers on foot the previous year). > Some of the cattle may have been the same animals from the previous year, > probably many were different animals from the previous year. > > By the third year (last summer) we were confident that the cattle did not > respond to our presence on horseback and cattle often grazed unconcerned > near our horses, much like the response you see from zebras grazing with > wildebeast or other African herbivores grazing and tolerating other > species within the same setting. We never gave it too much thought why > they accepted us, we were just relieved that we could be amongst them > without any evidence that they paid us any attention. Again the > individual animals on the pasture we were watching were probably changing > from year to year, with the possibility that some were the same. > > This summer I was further impressed by the "horse-as-a-blind" effect. I > am not the most skilled horseman (you really don't want the details on how > bad I actually am). Therefore, I would often dismount while taking notes > on my observations. At first I was careful to put myself on the opposite > side of the horse from the cattle and even tried to align myself with the > legs of the horse so as not to scare the cattle. It soon became obvious > that the cattle paid little attention to me regardless of the side of the > horse I was standing on. They even paid no attention if I was wallking in > front of the horse. Even if I was 3 ft in front of the horse, or 5 ft or > 10 ft! As long as I was remotely connected to the horse the cattle > accepted the horse and I as just another species sharing the resources. > This was true for all of us observing the cattle and we often dismounted > and sat on the ground or stood if the cattle were not moving. Sometimes > as the cattle were moving or grazing away we could simply walk, leading > our horse and we could still move within the cattle without raising any > concern. They never changed their grazing, resting, breeding or any other > behaviour, as best we could tell, due to our presence. I thought, > "Perhaps these cattle accept people on foot afterall." However, that > proved to be a wrong assumption. If we ever walked out on the pasture > without a horse, the cattle would immediately run. I tried approaching > several different groups from several different angles and the response > was always the same - as soon as the cattle or calves spotted me they > would run off. > > When we are on a horse or just in the presence of a hores we are accepted. > Bottom line, horses make a great blind for observing cattle, but why? > > I would be curious to know what principles are acting here. Any ideas? > Are we accepted because the horse shows no fear of us? Does the horse > somehow dimish the preception of our size - since we appear "smaller" than > the horse? Does the horse negate our upright posture? I tell you there > is something amazing that is happening here and it goes beyond the simple > explanation that a rider on a horse is not as threatening as a person on > foot, since our cattle accept people on foot as non-threatening as long as > they are in some proximity to a horse. The previous experiences of the > cattle do not seem to me to be the likely explanation for their behaviour, > since the group is composed of cattle from 8 different owners, some of > which work cattle on horseback some of which do not. Some owners seem > harsh with their cattle others do not. No one that we know of has ever > threatened these cattle on foot while at the community pasture, but all of > the cattle have been herded and driven by cowboys on horses while at the > pastures. Some of the cattle and calves would have been roped and treated > by the cowboys on horseback during their stay at the community pasture. > On the surface it would seem our cattle would have more to fear from > riders than a person on foot. > > Anyway, all of this is interesting to me and if you have similar > experiences or ideas I would be pleased to hear from you. Also if anyone > is interested in some good cattle blinds we are done with the horses for > another year and I am sure we could make you a deal! > > Sincerely, > > Joe Stookey > > ------------------------------ > Joseph M. Stookey > Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > University of Saskatchewan > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > S7N 5B4 From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 22-JUL-1999 10:43:26.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology-error" CC: Subj: RE: A horse as a portable blind Joe: This is a great story and one that I will use in one of my classes. Thanks for sharing it with us. I remember my days growing up on the dairy farm where you could walk out in the pasture among the cows without them showing fear or alarm. One day it was pouring rain at milking time and I had to go out in the pasture to round up the cows to bring them to the barn. I decided to take an umbrella with me. That was a bad decision. As soon as they saw me with the open umbrella, they took off to the back side of the pasture. The stimulus complex was different! Let me think out loud here. Perhaps in your case the fear of a lone human evokes enough fear in enough animals that the habituation process does not readily kick in. If the person becomes associated with a horse, a familiar and very dominant stimulus in their environment, habituation (to horse and human) may more readily occur. Since habituation is stimulus-specific, it does not generalize from the horse-human stimulus to the human alone. I like the "horse as a portable blind". I need to find something like that for my duck hunting here in California. Enjoy your summer! Ed ---------- > From: IN%"ragtuswa@eden.rutgers.edu" "the little zoo keeper" 22-JUL-1999 10:52:04.70 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hello all, Some months ago there was some talk regarding benefits (or lack of) as well as implications on welfare of different shapes(i.e. square vs. rectangle) of enclosures with the same area. This was a topic of particular interest to me, but unfortunately in a recent move I lost these files. If the people who posted these could repost these articles or mail me directly, I'd be very appreciative. I've also heard that there is a way to review all past postings - is this true, and if so, does anyone know how its done?? Thanks in advance, Mike toscano +_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_ Michael Toscano ragtuswa@eden.rutgers.edu (until Fall '99) home phone: (409) 862-2632 address: Michael Toscano office phone: (409) 845-5215 Kleberg Center Department of Animal Sciences College Station, Texas 77843 +_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_ From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 22-JUL-1999 11:38:23.71 To: IN%"ragtuswa@eden.rutgers.edu" "the little zoo keeper" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: your mail On Thu, 22 Jul 1999, the little zoo keeper wrote: > > I've also heard that there is a way to review all past postings - > is this true, and if so, does anyone know how its done?? > > Thanks in advance, > > Mike toscano > All previous messages posted to the applied-ethology network are archived every two weeks and available at: http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/ae/archives.htm We do not have a search engine capable of searching all the files at one time. If you knew about the time the discussion took place that would help narrow the search. Otherwise I suggest opening a file and conducting specific word searches or names to help locate the discussions you are interested in reading. I hope this helps. Joe Stookey From: IN%"lcpmf@cca.ufsc.br" "Luiz Carlos Pinheiro Machado Filho" 22-JUL-1999 14:05:58.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A horse as a portable blind >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:20:52 >To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca >From: Luiz Carlos Pinheiro Machado Filho >Subject: Re: A horse as a portable blind > > >Dear Joe: > >I have some experience observing cattle and buffalo behaviour on pasture. We observe over 24 hours. So, what I will describe is valid for day and night. > >I notice three factors: >1. Pasture management: >a.when animals are in extensive, range conditions, they show more avoidance to humans. >In this condition, we had problems with a group of Nelore cattle (Bos indicus). We used a horse and we could really approach the herd. We didn't actually ride the horse. There were two observers walking, and the horse at the side. It didn't matter which side. One time, the observers were with the horse at more or last 10 m from the cattle. I approached on foot, and when i was 200 m from them they started to move... >A similar situation happened observing buffaloes in free range conditions. They wouldn't allow more that 100 - 200 m aproximation. We then used a car. They allowed very close aproximation. In fact, I feared that they could push and damage the car! > >b. when animals are in rotational grazing, being moved everyday BY FOOT. After few hours of habituation we could observe very close. Actually, the animals were in 1 ha paddock, and we could approach 10 m easily without aparent disturbance. This happened with cattle of different breeds and with buffalo. > >2. Animals handling: >Animals regularly handled by horses are more difficult to accept people on foot to approach them. If they are moved by people on foot, and receive some supplement or salt on the paddock, they become very tame to human presence. > >3. Breed. In the case I mentioned in 1a, two other groups of european breeds allowed approxiamtion of 20 - 30 metres without aparent disturbance. But, the breeds had different histories and this maybe confounded. > >If cattle perceive us as "predators" it might be some how in their genes (?). If this is so, they are affraid of us. Animals can change their behaviour rapidly when change the environment. Horses are dominant over cattle. Would it be that they would feel "safe" if the dominant doesn't care about the predator? Maybe. In our experimental farm we have some buffaloes. There is an old, tame female, adn she is the dominant. She allows aproximation and touching from the stockperson. There was another dangerous, agressive towards humans female buffalo. If we would go to the field and approach the dominat, and touch here, no one would care about our presence. If we approach the other side, the animals would show signs of concern and maybe run off or against us.... > >I also have a feeling that animals in the lower positions fo the hierarchy are mroe agressive to humans than dominants. Did you ever notice that? > >These are my similar experiences. > >Best regards, > >Carlos. > > > > > > Luiz Carlos Pinheiro Machado Filho, Ph.D. Universidade Federal de Santa Catarina CCA - Depto. de Zootecnia e Des. Rural Rodovia Admar Gonzaga, 1346, Itacorubi. Florianópolis, SC, BRASIL. 88.040-900 FAX: +55(0)48 334-2014 E-mail: LCPMF@cca.ufsc.br From: IN%"fmartin@vetmed.wsu.edu" "Francois Martin" 22-JUL-1999 15:51:44.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Emotional health in companion animals Dear fellow ethologists, Today I received the following request from one of my colleagues. I would appreciate any help on this matter. FYI PPP is writing a comprehensive humane education curriculum on all aspects of responsible pet ownership for middle school students. Francois Martin, Ph.D. Associate Director of the Center for the Study of Animal Well Being and Head of People-Pet Partnership Program College of Veterinary Medicine Washington State University Pullman, WA 99164-7010 tel 509 335.4569 fax 509 335.6094 ======================================================================= Francois-I am to the last part of health care for companion animals in the middle school curriculum. This part is on the emotional health of the animal. I am wondering how to define it and if it is appreciably different in dogs and cats. Nicholas Dodman of Tufts CVM says that the brains of dogs are remarkable similar to those of humans. Dogs at least respond to the same neurotransmitters as humans do for conditions such as depression, anxiety, and OCD. Is this the same for cats? How would you phrase this in such a way that people between the ages of 11-14 or 15 could understand emotional health. Thanks Daun Daun Martin, M.S., M.Ed.,Ed.D., Program Manager People-Pet Partnership CVM Box 647010 WSU Pullman, WA 99164-7010 509-335-1303 http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-pppp/ From: IN%"hanebaum@cadvision.com" "Udo Hanebaum" 23-JUL-1999 00:38:13.77 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: A horse as a portable blind Hi everybody If I may comment on this from my own personal and terribly unscientific experience. The horse puts not only cattle, but also other horses, deer, elk and moose at ease. My parents own a farm along Riding Mountain National Park in Manitoba and I used to go riding a lot in the almost pure wilderness of the west side of the park. Often we were able to get very close to various game. My friends and neighbours always believed it was because the horse covers the scent. I personally do not believe so. You may think I am off my rocker, but I believe there is a universal animal language, a type of bodylanguage. The horses behavior/bodylanguage sort of vouches for the human. It is generally a sort of easiness of the horse that the other animals pick up on. I think that in general human body language is confusing to animals and scares them even more than the view of a natural predator. I know if you change the horses attitude by just verbally by reaming him out, even quietly so the cattle can't hear you, the cattle will behave almost as if you are without a horse. The horses bodylanguage changes, head high and alarmed, tail down and stiffer limbs, and the cattle are definitely aware of this. One thing you may find interesting is this little experiment. Go in the pasture without a horse and intentionally ignore the cattle. Do not look at them and never walk directly toward one, if at all possible become engrossed in some observation on the ground without kneeling down. You will find that you will get quite close to the cattle without any problem. You body language changes and you are no thread (perceive or real) to them. You will hunch over slightly, shoulders down and *not looking at them*, look at the types of grasses or wildflowers, sort of like a little girl picking flowers. I think you just have to show a sincere non interest and start using the bodylanguage of a (non-predator) animal.You may think I am nuts, but it is the only thing that worked when I was small and the cattle got out of the pasture and I had for some reason or another no horse available to chase them back. I always got close enough that I could walk in front of them and turn them around. Udo Hanebaum Calgary, AB hanebaum@cadvision.com From: IN%"S.Chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk" "Sarah Chaplin" 23-JUL-1999 02:32:04.50 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A horse as a portable blind Carlos wrote: > I also have a feeling that animals in the lower positions fo the >hierarchy are mroe agressive to humans than dominants. Did you ever >notice that? We have a mixed herd of Friesians and Ayrshires here at Auchincruive. Some of the Ayrshires are much smaller than the Friesians and the farm staff tell me that the Ayrshires are much more difficult to handle: less docile and more pushy. I wondered if maybe they have to throw themselves around more to get what they want (access to feed/drinking trough/front of the queue). I don't think they are necessarily dominant - I am somehow reminded of work which showed that animals (pigs?) at the top and bottom of dominance heirarchies were less stressed than ones in the middle which fight more but don't achieve top positions (please correct me if I'm wrong on this). So maybe the behaviour in the hierarchy carries through to their reaction towards humans? Just some thoughts, Sarah Sarah Chaplin Dairy Health Unit SAC Veterinary Science Division Auchincruive AYR KA6 5AE Tel.01292 520318 Fax.01292 521069 Email.s.chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 23-JUL-1999 09:45:23.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Emotional health in companion animals To list serve: I, too, would appreciate being copied on any information you send Dr. Martin. I am working to initiate such a program in my community and any information you may have will be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Elizabeth Chandler On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:49:54 -0700 Francois Martin wrote: > > Dear fellow ethologists, > Today I received the following request from one of my colleagues. I would > appreciate any help on this matter. > FYI PPP is writing a comprehensive humane education curriculum on all > aspects of responsible pet ownership for middle school students. > > Francois Martin, Ph.D. > Associate Director of the Center for the Study of Animal Well Being > and Head of People-Pet Partnership Program > College of Veterinary Medicine > Washington State University > Pullman, WA 99164-7010 > tel 509 335.4569 > fax 509 335.6094 > > ======================================================================= > Francois-I am to the last part of health care for companion animals in the > middle school curriculum. This part is on the emotional health of the > animal. I am wondering how to define it and if it is appreciably different > in dogs and cats. Nicholas Dodman of Tufts CVM says that the brains of dogs > are remarkable similar to those of humans. Dogs at least respond to the > same neurotransmitters as humans do for conditions such as depression, > anxiety, and OCD. Is this the same for cats? How would you phrase this in > such a way that people between the ages of 11-14 or 15 could understand > emotional health. Thanks Daun > > Daun Martin, M.S., M.Ed.,Ed.D., Program Manager > People-Pet Partnership > CVM Box 647010 > WSU > Pullman, WA 99164-7010 > 509-335-1303 > http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-pppp/ > Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 23-JUL-1999 10:58:50.56 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"cgaboury@total.net" CC: Subj: RE: A horse as a portable blind Chantal Gaboury wrote: > > Dear All, > > Is it possible that the other cattle do not fear you because they > interpret your association with the horse as, "The predator (the human) > has already caught its prey (the four-legged creature: the horse), and > that therefore, we (the cattle) are safe as long as the predator is > occupied by its prey?" > > Just a thought, > Chantal :-) Chantal, I thought this was interesting, also the comments about wild herds (via nature shows) settling down after one of their number is killed. This would not seem to be the case (very anectdotal evidence) with my horse. I distinctly remember a time I was riding and having great difficulty with my horse (Arabian so this was not uncommon). She was very nervous. When I looked over to see what she was nervous about I could see one of the cowboys teaching a yearling to lead. This horse was being pulled along by the horse he was ridding and so was kicking up a fuss, pulling etc. and looked very much like a horse fighting off a preditor. Maybe if my horse was not confined by the bridle etc. she would not have reacted so strongly but she was so difficult to handle I quit trying until the "lesson" was over. I don't know what the yearling thought about this. Nora -- Nora Lewis, Ph.D., D.V.M. Department of Animal Science, University of Manitoba, 12 Dafoe Rd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. R3T 2N2 phone: 204 474-9443 fax: 204 474-7628 email Nora_Lewis@UManitoba.Ca From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 23-JUL-1999 14:03:46.77 To: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Emotional health in companion animals Ditto. I, too, would love to hear about anything that surfaces regarding the emotional health of companion animals. Peggy At 11:35 AM 7/23/99 -0400, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: >I, too, would appreciate being copied on any information you send Dr. >Martin. >> animal. I am wondering how to define it and if it is appreciably different >> in dogs and cats. How would you phrase this in >> such a way that people between the ages of 11-14 or 15 could understand >> emotional health. Thanks Daun >> >> Daun Martin, M.S., M.Ed.,Ed.D., Program Manager >> People-Pet Partnership Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) PO Box 844 Arlee MT 59821-0844 USA 406-726-3342 arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 23-JUL-1999 14:05:59.35 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Group Posting" CC: Subj: "High Welfare" Farm QA Schemes under investigation ----------------------------------------------------------- "High Welfare" Farm QA Schemes under investigation ----------------------------------------------------------- A startling programme on Channel 4 TV last night exposed allegedly widespread abuses of UK "free range" food labelling regulations. Government welfare officials are also investigating the claims of "free range" farm assurance schemes and the Tesco supermarket chain is funding a scientific assessment of them at Bristol University. The TV programme last night included undercover filming of 20 poultry farms by Daniel Butler, a smallholder farmer from Wales who keeps genuinely free-range chickens and was mystified at the massive low-cost retail sales of "free range" eggs in the UK. He did not see how it was possible to produce "free range" eggs on such a massive scale and at only a small premium over ordinary eggs. His film and secretly taped interviews with farmers provided damning evidence that very few "free range" birds even went outside, let alone roamed freely. Instead they were mostly crowded indoors in huge groups where damaging vices were apparently rife. One of the Quality Assurance schemes criticised was the RSPCA's "Freedom Food" scheme which trademark's the quality of over 60 million eggs per month. Ninety per cent of "high welfare" poultry farms in the United Kingdom belong to the scheme. The RSPCA is today refuting the allegations made in the programme. A press release said "Most Freedom Food systems have 11.7 hens per square metre compared to 20 hens per square metre in conventional battery systems." The European Union last month approved proposals that will allow a maximum of only 9 hens per square metre from the year 2012. The farm livestock welfare debate has become red hot in the UK this month, with disputes about swine farrowing crates & docking the tail of piglets adding to the "free range" furore. I have put a personal overview of these farm animal welfare debates is on-line at: http://www.pighealth.com/welfare.htm I hope it isn't too disrespectful to ethologists - do let me know your views! Michael Meredith From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 23-JUL-1999 22:08:38.01 To: IN%"fmartin@vetmed.wsu.edu" "'Francois Martin'" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Emotional health in companion animals Dear Francois, Perhaps attention of the age group you are addressing might be engaged by a paraphrasing of the Declaration of Independence? The Pursuit of Happiness by animals could be discussed. After all they seem to have the emotional mental equipment for feeling anxiety, pain, pleasure and even addiction. Perhaps animals have the right to bear arms? Should we remove their teeth, claws and horns arbitrarily? It is self evident that each species has natural ways of living and achieving contentment and a balance of response to the alarms and stresses of normal life. The dog and cat certainly are different. The former is likely to be intensely sociable and have highly developed needs for self fulfilment which have been intensified by selective breeding. The cat as a relatively solitary predator may show a more polarised emotion range such as "hunt or run away" rather than indulge in social groups with all the deferring and appeasement of polite society. Within the broad grouping above are, of course, the individuals who do not conform and it might be recognised to have rights of idiosyncratic life styles. Shorter words are available! Robin -----Original Message----- From: Francois Martin [SMTP:fmartin@vetmed.wsu.edu] Sent: 22 July 1999 22:50 To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Emotional health in companion animals Dear fellow ethologists, Today I received the following request from one of my colleagues. I would appreciate any help on this matter. FYI PPP is writing a comprehensive humane education curriculum on all aspects of responsible pet ownership for middle school students. Francois Martin, Ph.D. Associate Director of the Center for the Study of Animal Well Being and Head of People-Pet Partnership Program College of Veterinary Medicine Washington State University Pullman, WA 99164-7010 tel 509 335.4569 fax 509 335.6094 ======================================================================= Francois-I am to the last part of health care for companion animals in the middle school curriculum. This part is on the emotional health of the animal. I am wondering how to define it and if it is appreciably different in dogs and cats. Nicholas Dodman of Tufts CVM says that the brains of dogs are remarkable similar to those of humans. Dogs at least respond to the same neurotransmitters as humans do for conditions such as depression, anxiety, and OCD. Is this the same for cats? How would you phrase this in such a way that people between the ages of 11-14 or 15 could understand emotional health. Thanks Daun Daun Martin, M.S., M.Ed.,Ed.D., Program Manager People-Pet Partnership CVM Box 647010 WSU Pullman, WA 99164-7010 509-335-1303 http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-pppp/ From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 24-JUL-1999 08:15:09.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Emotional health in companion animals Hi Robin! You're idea using the Declaration of Independence is great! A question on this one: You said: > The cat as a relatively solitary predator may show a more polarised > emotion range such as "hunt or run away" rather than indulge in > social groups with all the deferring and appeasement of polite society. If we recognize problems like insecure attachment in cats, can we really say this? Or, perhaps, should we start making distinctions between cat species? DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 24-JUL-1999 08:24:19.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Emotional health in companion animals At 01:36 PM 7/23/99 -0600, you wrote: >Ditto. I, too, would love to hear about anything that surfaces regarding >the emotional health of companion animals. Peggy I too would like to hear about this. If enough people say this, perhaps sending it to the list is not a bad idea. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 24-JUL-1999 08:28:37.68 To: IN%"ragtuswa@eden.rutgers.edu" "the little zoo keeper", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: archives At 12:50 PM 7/22/99 -0400, the little zoo keeper wrote: > > > > > Hello all, > > > Some months ago there was some talk regarding benefits (or lack >of) as well as implications on welfare of different shapes(i.e. square vs. >rectangle) of enclosures with the same area. > > This was a topic of particular interest to me, but unfortunately >in a recent move I lost these files. If the people who posted these could >repost these articles or mail me directly, I'd be very appreciative. > > I've also heard that there is a way to review all past postings - >is this true, and if so, does anyone know how its done?? > > > Thanks in advance, > > Mike toscano The following requests can be made to the applied ethology listserver. To make a request you must address your message to: applied-ethology-REQUEST@sask.usask.ca You must type one of the following commands on the first line of your text message NOT the subject line. To ask for a list of archives files, use command: DIRECTORY [APPLIED-ETHOLOGY]*.* To ask for a list of archive files for a given year, use command: DIRECTORY [APPLIED-ETHOLOGY]*.96 To ask for a list of archive files for a given month, use command: DIRECTORY [APPLIED-ETHOLOGY]JUN*.96 To receive a specific archive file, use command: SEND [APPLIED-ETHOLOGY]JUN01-15.96 To receive archives files from a given year, use command: SEND [APPLIED-ETHOLOGY]*.96 To unsubscribe, use command: UNSUBSCRIBE APPLIED-ETHOLOGY USERNAME@USERADDRESS.HERE To subscribe, use command: UNSUBSCRIBE APPLIED-ETHOLOGY USERNAME@USERADDRESS.HERE The address for the archives on the net is: http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/ae/archives.htm Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 24-JUL-1999 09:21:22.30 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker", IN%"fmartin@vetmed.wsu.edu" "'Francois Martin'" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Emotional health in companion animals At 04:51 AM 7/24/99 +0100, Robin Walker wrote: >Perhaps attention of the age group you are addressing might be >engaged by a paraphrasing of the Declaration of Independence? Robin, what a revolutionary idea!!! (Sorry, I just HAD to say that.) Peggy Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) PO Box 844 Arlee MT 59821-0844 USA 406-726-3342 arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk" "Sarah Heath" 24-JUL-1999 11:30:09.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: oops Disaster has struck my computer and all of my inbox messages have been = deleted! If anyone has sent me an Email for any reason and not had a reply - = please resend as I have probably never seen it!!!!!!!!!!!!! From: IN%"cook@garlic.com" "SC Cook" 24-JUL-1999 22:28:50.22 To: IN%"hanebaum@cadvision.com" "Udo Hanebaum", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: A horse as a portable blind Ok, I have to ask a question here and it is a bit out of the ordinary, not to mention a change in topic. I do a lot of search and rescue with my dog, which sometimes includes homicides and cadaver work. Recently we have had some big discussions on whether: 1) their is a difference in olfactories among dogs (Bloodhound vs. German Shep.?etc..) 2) Can dogs sense fear? 3) Can they smell/sense the presence of evil? Now I do not know the anatomical answer to question one but my gut says that the receptors are the same per size of dog. On question 2 I am opt to say yes they can sense/smell fear. The question came about because many times if you approach a scene of a homicide or traumatic death the dogs will basically do somersaults to get away from it or slowly creep up the the area growling the whole time. The obviously smell or sense something, but what?? On question 3 I will say my vote is for no they can't smell or sense evil but explain the next scenario - 5 dogs ( all search and rescue trained) are on a long down stay outside a shopping mall, the owners are present and talking, a man walks up and sits down on a bench near one of the dogs, next thing the handler knows the dog is up - hackles and all - growling and leaping towards the man. The man asks what is your dogs problem - the handler replies he knows something about you that he doesn't like, the man looks concerned and immediately gets up and leaves the area. About three months pass and the handler see's a picture of the man in the paper, he has turned himself in for homicide and presented the police department with a severed breast. Creepy huh? I just wanted to see if this group has any thoughts on this issue? Shay Cook Morgan Hill, CA U.S.A. ----- Original Message ----- From: Udo Hanebaum To: Ethology Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:37 AM Subject: Re: A horse as a portable blind > Hi everybody > > If I may comment on this from my own personal and terribly > unscientific experience. > > The horse puts not only cattle, but also other horses, deer, elk and > moose at ease. My parents own a farm along Riding Mountain National > Park in Manitoba and I used to go riding a lot in the almost pure > wilderness of the west side of the park. Often we were able to get > very close to various game. > My friends and neighbours always believed it was because the horse > covers the scent. I personally do not believe so. You may think I am > off my rocker, but I believe there is a universal animal language, a > type of bodylanguage. The horses behavior/bodylanguage sort of > vouches for the human. It is generally a sort of easiness of the > horse that the other animals pick up on. I think that in general > human body language is confusing to animals and scares them even more > than the view of a natural predator. I know if you change the horses > attitude by just verbally by reaming him out, even quietly so the > cattle can't hear you, the cattle will behave almost as if you are > without a horse. The horses bodylanguage changes, head high and > alarmed, tail down and stiffer limbs, and the cattle are definitely > aware of this. One thing you may find interesting is this little > experiment. Go in the pasture without a horse and intentionally > ignore the cattle. Do not look at them and never walk directly toward > one, if at all possible become engrossed in some observation on the > ground without kneeling down. You will find that you will get quite > close to the cattle without any problem. You body language changes > and you are no thread (perceive or real) to them. You will hunch over > slightly, shoulders down and *not looking at them*, look at the types > of grasses or wildflowers, sort of like a little girl picking flowers. > I think you just have to show a sincere non interest and start using > the bodylanguage of a (non-predator) animal.You may think I am nuts, > but it is the only thing that worked when I was small and the cattle > got out of the pasture and I had for some reason or another no horse > available to chase them back. I always got close enough that I could > walk in front of them and turn them around. > > > Udo Hanebaum > Calgary, AB > hanebaum@cadvision.com > > > From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 25-JUL-1999 16:28:40.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Sound and Smell Picture a pasture with a mixture of herbivores, equidae, bovidae, cervidae and ovidae all strolling and grazing. The smell of freshly torn grass and farty haze of methane envelopes the burping, grunting, munching vegetarians. All are tuned to the alarms and excursions of other species and we should not exclude the birds as heralds of danger. Suddenly a biped appears with a different scent and a posture that in others would be described as rearing. If this creature strolls and searches amongst the foliage and picks berries it may be accepted but if it stares and seems intent on coming close, those nearest may move away. The close company of a calmly strolling and occasionally grazing horse confers a non threatening status. I wonder if a halter trained cow or even tame sheep might not replace the horse? Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 25-JUL-1999 17:41:37.82 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBE List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"evolutionary_psychology@egroups.com" "EP@groups" CC: Subj: Summary Notes for HBES '99 Summary notes for HBES '99 are at http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary= at the bottom of the page, courtey of J. Anderson Thomson, John K. Pearce= , and Russell Gardner, Editor of "Across Species Comparisons and Psychopathology." ASCAP will also print the notes in a coming issue. Jim Brody From: IN%"Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac.be" 26-JUL-1999 01:44:38.37 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: searching for Ray Stricklin Hello everybody, Does somebody know where I can contact Ray Stricklin for the moment? Thank you very much Marc Marc Vandenheede Universit=E9 de Li=E8ge Facult=E9 de M=E9decine V=E9t=E9rinaire Service d'Hygi=E8ne et Bioclimatologie Bd de Colonster, B=E2t. B43 4000 Li=E8ge Belgium t=E9l.: 32/(0)4/366.41.48 fax.: 32/(0)4/366.41.22 email: Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac.be From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 26-JUL-1999 05:32:03.95 To: IN%"Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac.be", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: searching for Ray Stricklin At 09:48 AM 7/26/99 +0200, Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac.be wrote: >Hello everybody, > >Does somebody know where I can contact Ray Stricklin for the moment? >Thank you very much > >Marc As of Feb. of this year he posted from: W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Email:ws31@umail.umd.edu (ws31) Phone: 301-405-1382 Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"Nabil.Brandl@sh.dk" 26-JUL-1999 05:46:17.91 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"keith.Maccloy@agrsci.dk", IN%"jean-marie.aerts@agr.kuleuven.ac.be", IN%"Paddy.Schofield@bbsrc.ac.uk", IN%"pju@vision.auc.dk", IN%"rene@dina.sp.dk" CC: Subj: ImageAnalysis Discussion group Dear All This is the eGroups.com service. The moderator of the imageanalysis@egroups.com group would like to invite you to join the group. To join, YOU MUST REPLY to this message. If you join, you can read group messages in your e-mail in-box or on the Web. 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The eGroups.com Team --- FREE Web-based e-mail groups! http://www.egroups.com -- \\ || // ( 0 0 ) ----ooOO-(..)-OOoo--- Nabil Brandl Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Reseach Center Foulum P.O.Box 50, 8830 Denamrk Tjele E-mail: mailto: Nabil.Brandl@agrsci.dk Voice: 45-89991371 Fax: 45-89991500 HomePage: http://www.sp.dk/~nabil From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 26-JUL-1999 06:28:37.98 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN", IN%"Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: searching for Ray Stricklin I am still at the University of Maryland and will be until August 15th. Will then be in Sweden for one year. Am getting prepared for the trip and in and out of the office for the next 3 weeks. Marc, I was away at Amer Society of Animal Science last week. Will be monitoring this email address on a permanent basis but have a large backlog at this time. Ray Stricklin On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:29:47 -0400 VIVIAN BREGMAN wrote: > At 09:48 AM 7/26/99 +0200, Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac.be wrote: > >Hello everybody, > > > >Does somebody know where I can contact Ray Stricklin for the moment? > >Thank you very much > > > >Marc > > > As of Feb. of this year he posted from: > > W. Ray Stricklin > University of Maryland > College Park, MD 20742 > Email:ws31@umail.umd.edu (ws31) > Phone: 301-405-1382 > > > Vivian > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > interested in everything to do with science, > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 26-JUL-1999 07:08:03.38 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Emotional health in companion animals Deborah McWilliams wrote: > If we recognize problems like insecure attachment in cats, can we > really say this? Or, perhaps, should we start making distinctions > between cat species? > > DebMcW > Deborah, Is this not a difference between cats with the "friendly gene" and those without? I remember this from Vet. school but have not seen anything since (but I don't read this literature, its out of my field). I think it was carried in the male and passed to his offspring as a dominant. Cats with the friendly gene are supposed to be more social. If this is true I think it would spread in the population due to artificial selection. Nora -- Nora Lewis, Ph.D., D.V.M. Department of Animal Science, University of Manitoba, 12 Dafoe Rd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. R3T 2N2 phone: 204 474-9443 fax: 204 474-7628 email Nora_Lewis@UManitoba.Ca From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 26-JUL-1999 07:57:21.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Emotional health in companion animals On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Nora Lewis wrote: >[...] > Is this not a difference between cats with the "friendly gene" and those > without? I remember this from Vet. school but have not seen anything > since (but I don't read this literature, its out of my field). I think > it was carried in the male and passed to his offspring as a dominant. > Cats with the friendly gene are supposed to be more social. If this is > true I think it would spread in the population due to artificial > selection. It might actually be selected against if "friendly" cats are more likely to be adopted and neutered by humans. It is possible to have cats who are very social towards other cats, but very un-social towards humans. Some feral cats have "nursing coalitions" of females who rear kittens communally. Presumably this is a survival characteristic in a cold climate with locally abundant food sources provided by humans. ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 26-JUL-1999 09:01:37.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Emotional health in companion animals Hi Nora!!! You wrote: > Is this not a difference between cats with the "friendly gene" and those > without? I remember this from Vet. school but have not seen anything > since (but I don't read this literature, its out of my field). I think > it was carried in the male and passed to his offspring as a dominant. > Cats with the friendly gene are supposed to be more social. If this is > true I think it would spread in the population due to artificial > selection. Whether there is a friendly gene or not, we have influenced the evolution of many species through artificial selection. I agree that artificial selection is very much a factor in today's pets. I have socialized many animals, however, with disparate backgrounds from wild to abused. This experience leads me to believe that environment and handling is very much a factor in the behaviour we observe in animals. For example, I have worked with cats described as not social and found them otherwise. Most often these cats belong to people who believe that cats do not relate to humans and are not social. Or, they do not recognize cats' social behaviour when they see it. Cats are a social species and they will demonstrate their speciated behaviours in environments where they make an investment. I like to tell people (about any potential pet): "You will be as important to your pet as your pet is important to you". Same goes for relationships among humans (in general). DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 26-JUL-1999 11:29:59.95 To: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Emotional health in companion animals At 02:56 PM 7/26/99 +0100, you wrote: >On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Nora Lewis wrote: > >>[...] >> Is this not a difference between cats with the "friendly gene" and those >> without? I remember this from Vet. school but have not seen anything >> since (but I don't read this literature, its out of my field). I think >> it was carried in the male and passed to his offspring as a dominant. >> Cats with the friendly gene are supposed to be more social. If this is >> true I think it would spread in the population due to artificial >> selection. > >It might actually be selected against if "friendly" cats are more likely >to be adopted and neutered by humans. It is possible to have cats who are >very social towards other cats, but very un-social towards humans. Some >feral cats have "nursing coalitions" of females who rear kittens >communally. Presumably this is a survival characteristic in a cold climate >with locally abundant food sources provided by humans. > As a case in point, my most favorite cat, who was very friendly towards me, my children and my dog, has been missing since Thursday and is presumed dead. Coyotes are the prime suspects. He tended to stay close to home and I never saw him enter the fields where the coyotes could get to him, but he had practically no fear of dogs, as he was raised by and best buddies with my Schipperke, and this no doubt made him easy prey for a coyote. In a rural setting, a friendly gene, if there is such, is probably a disadvantage. I agree that one should distinguish between a cat who is social with other cats versus one which socializes to other species. And, as alluded to above, early exposure has a dramatic effect on socialization. I think that there is some ongoing research on this and I am hoping that Dr. Crowell-Davis is still on this list and let us know what is the current status of personality research with cats. Janice Willard, DVM, MS From: IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk" 27-JUL-1999 07:29:25.59 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: agression in stable groups Hi all In small stable captive groups of mammals eg. cage of mice, pen of pigs, after initial group formation, does aggression decrease, increase, remain the same over time. Any refs please. Dale Dale Arey GIBiol PhD SAC Animal Biology Division Ferguson Building Craibstone Aberdeen AB21 9YA UK Tel: 01224 711058 From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 27-JUL-1999 08:16:33.57 To: IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: agression in stable groups Hi Dale, Sorry to immediately muddy the waters, but aggression levels can be highly strain/species/environmentally dependent, even in stable groups. I've just returned from the ASAB conference in Lisbon where Jane Hurst gave an excellent presentation on urine marking by lab mice. It appears that because these olfactory signals convey infromation about the competitive ability of the marking mouse, factors which change this information can alter the perceived competitive ability/status, and hence the likelihood that aggression might increase or decrease. This would explain why male BalbC mice, which are notorious for being highly aggressive, will live in apparent harmony for months, only to suddenly explode into a mass of whisker-chewing, testicle-biting monsters usually after the cage has been cleaned, i.e. when the scent marks of the most dominant animal have been removed. Try for example, Gray S and Hurst, JL 1995. The effects of cage cleaning on aggression within groups of male laboratory mice. Anim Behav 49 (3) 821-6 There was also the unexpected result that when environmental enrichment objects were placed into cages of mice, aggression increased rather than decreased. It has been suggested the mice perceived these objects as resources and defended them. I think - McGregor P and Ayling S 1990 Varied cages result in more aggression in male CFLP mice Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci. 26 277-281 and try Haemisch A, Voss, T and Gartner (1994) Effects of environmental enrichment on aggressive behaviour, dominance hierarchies, and endocrine states in male DBA/2J mice. Phys Behav 56 1041-8 I am sure these sorts of results would not be the same for all species because dominance and aggression hierarchies are mediated by different sensory modalities. These would be inflenuced to different extents by environmental manipulation. Hope this helps rather than hinders! Chris Sherwin On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:27:33 +0100 Dale Arey wrote: > Hi all > > In small stable captive groups of mammals eg. cage of mice, pen > of pigs, after initial group formation, does aggression decrease, > increase, remain the same over time. > > Any refs please. > > Dale > > > Dale Arey GIBiol PhD > SAC Animal Biology Division > Ferguson Building > Craibstone > Aberdeen AB21 9YA > UK > Tel: 01224 711058 > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 27-JUL-1999 08:41:09.86 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Emotional health in companion animals > I agree that one should distinguish between a cat who is social with other > cats versus one which socializes to other species. And, as alluded to > above, early exposure has a dramatic effect on socialization. I think that > there is some ongoing research on this and I am hoping that Dr. > Crowell-Davis is still on this list and let us know what is the current > status of personality research with cats. Jance While we have had, and continue to have, several ongoing longitudinal studies on the social behavior of free-ranging cats, and are beginning a longitudinal study on social behavior and play in kittens, we haven't done anything on socialization to own vs. other species, or tested specific effects of early experience on later behavior. While I could talk a lot about the studies we're doing, they don't seem to relate directly to where this discussion has been going. As regards the general topic--emotional health in companion animals--based on our research and my clinical experience, it is my opinion that cats generally are better off in multi-cat households which are relatively stable in composition. This gives them playmates and social partners. We do know that they develop "preferred associate" relationships with specific other individuals in the group, that they allorub, allogroom and do a lot of sniffing of each other as well as the environment. We are just beginning to decipher some of the "subtle" signals that have been in front of us all along, but which people don't look for because they haven't been taught to focus their attention on them, but there is a lot of social signalling that goes on between members of a group. Members of a social group will sleep in a huddle even when the Georgia afternoons climb into the 90's. The importance of the social contact overwhelms the fact that the huddle works against thermoregulation in such conditions. On the other hand, cats that have grown to adulthood as the only cat in the household may not do as well in a social context as cats that have grown up in a social environment. Here they seem to be much like dogs. Isolation from their own species while growing up seems to result in a lack of the basic, species specific social skills. This remains to be confirmed with empirical studies, but that's the impression I have at this point. Sharon Crowell-Davis ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison" 27-JUL-1999 08:52:42.53 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: agression in stable groups (mice) Hi all, Summoned from my lurking status by Chris' e-mail. Cheered by positive comments! As Chris said, many factors are known to affect aggression levels in mice - working out the relationships between these is the hard bit! The lab mice stuff that Jane Hurst was talking about at the ASAB meeting was work carried out under her guidance during my doctoral thesis. The work on strain differences in aggression, in enriched and non-enriched cages, will be published in the Animal Welfare Special issue - Genetics and Welfare - which (I think)is out in September. If anyone wants more details I suggest mailing me off-list. For my thesis I also did a lot of work on odour cue perception by different strains of mice which, as Chris pointed out, is likely to mediate aggression between strains of lab mice. Papers arising from this will be submitted imminently . I also believe that Pascalle van Loo has a paper out soon concerned with the effects of cage cleaning on aggression in mice, work she presented at last years ISAE with a good response. Likewise, I hope this helps not hinders! Charlotte. ---------------------- C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk Animal Behaviour Research Group Division of Animal Husbandry Leahurst Veterinary Teaching Hospital, University of Liverpool, Chester High Road, Neston, South Wirral L64 7TE UK Tel: 0151 794 6101 Fax: 0151 794 6107 From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 27-JUL-1999 09:18:37.46 To: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: agression in stable groups (mice) A short note of public apology to Charlotte Nevison for not acknowledging her efforts in this interesting work. Attempting brevity of messages and a rather soporific, balmy Bristol afternoon sometimes cause these oversights. Sorry Charlotte. ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 28-JUL-1999 10:45:06.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Australian Cattle Dogs I am hoping to correspond with someone who may have experience with working ACD's and cattle. Please email me privately. thank you, Donna Reynolds From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 29-JUL-1999 09:45:37.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Events in Utero I just vaccinated Eric the kitten. "He" was one of 4 kittens al deemed to be male at birth. By 8 weeks of age it was evident that Eric was female. The original mis-sexing was attributable to an ano-genital papilla distance in Eric(a) that resembled that in the 3 male siblings. By 12 weeks of age a measurement from the centre of the anal ring to the mid point of the vulva is 40 mm. There is just over 2 cms of space between the edges of the anal and vaginal zones respectively. I understand that an increase in this distance is observed in the Mongolian Gerbil in precisely those females which are located in-between males in the uterus. The thought stirs that something similar might occur in cats. Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"cook@garlic.com" "SC Cook" 29-JUL-1999 21:13:16.40 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: Boxers and myocardium Does anyone know if a Boxer is more likely to have a myocardium or heart problem than another breed?? If so is there any specific test besides the normal ultrasound to help diagnosis this early? Thanks Shay Cook