From: IN%"spheekin@ucdavis.edu" 31-MAY-2001 13:24:34.79 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE 2001 Congress The program for the 35th Congress for the International Society for Applied Ethology meeting, to be held on the campus of the University of California, Davis, on August 4-8, 2001, has now been posted on the Congress website at http://animalwelfare.ucdavis.edu/conference/ethology/scientific.html We have an exciting and interesting program in store! The Wood-Gush Memorial lecture will be given by Dr. Temple Grandin, who will talk about translating animal behavior & welfare research into practical improvements in livestock handling, transport and slaughter. There will also be five plenaries, 60 spoken papers, workshops, and more than a hundred poster papers. The early registration deadline is JUNE 1. After that time prices will increase by 25%. Joy Mench From: IN%"Bob.Kilgour@agric.nsw.gov.au" "Bob Kilgour" 3-JUN-2001 22:16:25.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Exercise and space for cattle I have been asked to provide some information on housing and exercise requirements or recommendations for cattle housed indoors for several months. This is not a normal practice in Australia since we generally do not have climatic conditions that lead us to house cattle like this. However, this particular request has come from someone in a coastal area with high rainfall. Can anyone provide me with information or point me in its direction on the space requirements and need for exercise for housed cattle. Bob Kilgour Agricultural Research Centre Trangie NSW 2823 Australia. Phone 61 2 6880 8000 Fax 61 2 6888 7201 From: IN%"Bob.Kilgour@agric.nsw.gov.au" "Bob Kilgour" 3-JUN-2001 22:30:30.62 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Space and exercise for cattle I have been asked to provide some information on housing and exercise requirements or recommendations for cattle housed indoors for several months. This is not a normal practice in Australia since we generally do not have climatic conditions that lead us to house cattle like this. However, this particular request has come from someone in a coastal area with high rainfall. Can anyone provide me with information or point me in its direction on the space requirements and need for exercise for housed cattle. Bob Kilgour Agricultural Research Centre Trangie NSW 2823 Australia. Phone 61 2 6880 8000 Fax 61 2 6888 7201 From: IN%"maslow@spin.net.au" "A. Eenink & K.M. Cornack" 4-JUN-2001 04:50:05.75 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sound alarms and dogs Hello everyone I am seeking information about the use of sound alarms to deter dogs. 90-110 decibels output. Are they effective in deterring? Are they harmful or injurious? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Regards kathy Cornack Vet Behaviourist Australia From: IN%"maslow@spin.net.au" "A. Eenink & K.M. Cornack" 4-JUN-2001 04:52:31.60 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sound and horses Hi again. I am also seeking information about the effect of motor car noise on horses unaccustomed to it. There are plans to build a motor race track in an area where many horses currently are stabled and exercised. Is there any information, references etc about the potential effects may have on the horses? Thanks again regards kathy Cornack vet behaviourist Australia From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 4-JUN-2001 07:37:46.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca", IN%"ISAEnet-l@usask.ca" CC: Subj: What price cheap food? Dear All Thank you again for the many messages of support for our conference, What Price Cheap Food? Unfortunately, we have today had to take the decision to postpone the conference, because not enough people have registered. This is surprising in view of the topicality of the issue, but one factor may be that people are still reluctant to travel because of the Foot & Mouth outbreak. Anyway, the questions we intended to address are still important, and we now plan to hold the meeting as a satellite to the annual BSAS conference in York, UK, on Sunday 7th to Monday 8th April 2002. Yours sincerely, Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Humane Society of the US c/o Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh West Mains Road Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"ErikaP@humanesociety.mb.ca" "Erika Pfeiffer" 4-JUN-2001 11:45:07.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: feral dogs I am searching for research or data in feral dog populations and if sterilization helps control numbers. It has be often stated that sterilization works better than euthanasia to control feral cats, I am looking for similar studies in feral dogs. Erika Pfeiffer, MSc DVM From: IN%"JLGhmn8532@aol.com" 5-JUN-2001 05:04:06.42 To: IN%"maslow@spin.net.au" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs Kathy, As someone who has hands-on experience with police dogs, I give you what I know. We trained dogs to ignore loud noises (gun shots). My first time as a handler on a live-fire obstacle course, I found out how loud noises affect most dogs initially. My dog wanted to bite my right hand (with the gun), so I had to plant my left hand on the ground with the leash so I wouldn't get bit. However, Jack (my dog) had never been exposed to live fire like that. I guess what I'm trying to say is dogs will always seek out any kind of new information in a curious way, but if the noise alarm you're talking about actually causes pain to the dogs, you may get an aggressive response. Of course, you may have a dog that will urinate on himself, too. In a nutshell, if the dog has been exposed to loud noises consistently, the dog may not be deterred. However, if you are mostly working with household pets, the noise alarm may work. In my experience, I have trained my dogs to ignore sudden loud reports and other distracting stimuli. Jeff Gehman Consultant Houston, TX From: IN%"EnjoyYourPet@aol.com" 5-JUN-2001 06:33:52.33 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs Kathy, I have occasionaly used a loud sound (brief blast of a marine air horn) to condition a dog not to bolt out the front door of a client's home. These folks were not willing to obedience train their dog, which would have been better, by far. They also were not willing to use any sort of remote collar, and a brief e-stim would have been more humane, by far. So, I hid on the front porch, and sounded the alarm whenever her nose crossed neared the threshold. She refused to come out the door after the third trial. She has needed a "refresher" every few months. Now, that said, I DO have strong feelings about the safety and humaneness of this approach if it were used frequently. (And I feel the same way about the citronella spray collars.) The dog's senses of hearing and smell are exquisitely sensitive--hundreds, even thousands, of times more acute than ours. I believe that a loud blast of sound or unpleasant odor must be akin to a blinding and painful flash of light for a human. By comparison, an e-stim-----NOTE WELL: from one of the new-generation remote collars, set on < l sec duration, and the lowest noticeable setting------is far less overwhelming to a dog and is just as, if not more, effective in training a dog to avoid something. So, whenever I cannot for some reason train using reinforcement techniques, I prefer to use the least aversive, but effective, stimulus (e-stim) for avoidance conditioning. Could you tell us more about the particular situation in which you are training? Regards, Amy Amelia D. Compton, Ph.D. Behavioral Psychologist & Canine Trainer Animal Behavior Solutions, Inc. 5515 Cottage St. Richmond, VA 23228 phone: 804 264-4540 From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 5-JUN-2001 07:03:24.08 To: IN%"EnjoyYourPet@aol.com" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs Amy, Am I correct to infer that 'e-stim' is a euphimism for 'electric shock? Chris On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 08:33:30 -0400 (EDT) EnjoyYourPet@aol.com wrote: > Kathy, > > I have occasionaly used a loud sound (brief blast of a marine air > horn) to > condition a dog not to bolt out the front door of a client's home. > These > folks were not willing to obedience train their dog, which would > have been > better, by far. They also were not willing to use any sort of > remote collar, > and a brief e-stim would have been more humane, by far. > > So, I hid on the front porch, and sounded the alarm whenever her > nose crossed > neared the threshold. She refused to come out the door after the > third > trial. She has needed a "refresher" every few months. > > Now, that said, I DO have strong feelings about the safety and > humaneness of > this approach if it were used frequently. (And I feel the same way > about the > citronella spray collars.) The dog's senses of hearing and smell > are > exquisitely sensitive--hundreds, even thousands, of times more > acute than > ours. I believe that a loud blast of sound or unpleasant odor must > be akin > to a blinding and painful flash of light for a human. By > comparison, an > e-stim-----NOTE WELL: from one of the new-generation remote > collars, set on < > l sec duration, and the lowest noticeable setting------is far less > overwhelming to a dog and is just as, if not more, effective in > training a > dog to avoid something. So, whenever I cannot for some reason > train using > reinforcement techniques, I prefer to use the least aversive, but > effective, > stimulus (e-stim) for avoidance conditioning. > > Could you tell us more about the particular situation in which you > are > training? > > Regards, > > Amy > > > Amelia D. Compton, Ph.D. > > Behavioral Psychologist & Canine Trainer > > Animal Behavior Solutions, Inc. > 5515 Cottage St. > Richmond, VA 23228 > phone: 804 264-4540 > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology Dept Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 From: IN%"EnjoyYourPet@aol.com" 5-JUN-2001 07:17:55.16 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs Chris, I'm glad you brought that up. I'd like to explain why I prefer the term e-stim. "Electric shock" implies that the stimulus is necessarily painful and injurious; it takes for granted that the stimulation is set at a level that will cause extreme discomfort and injury. By contrast, the e-stim used in dog training is at a barely perceptible level. It does not cause the dog to yelp in pain. It causes a dog to pause. In my opinion, e-stim is far less noxious and aversive to a dog than a blast of loud noise or offensive odor. Amy Amelia D. Compton, Ph.D. Behavioral Psychologist & Canine Trainer Animal Behavior Solutions, Inc. 5101-B Lakeside Avenue Richmond, VA 23228 phone: 804 264-4540 From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 5-JUN-2001 07:57:49.97 To: IN%"EnjoyYourPet@aol.com" CC: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs Amy, Do you know if any studies have been published on the perceived (from the animal's point-of-view) degree of aversiveness of a variety of negative reinforcements for dogs, similar to studies which have been conducted on farm and laboratory species (including the aversiveness of electric shocks)? Chris On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:17:32 -0400 (EDT) EnjoyYourPet@aol.com wrote: > Chris, > > I'm glad you brought that up. I'd like to explain why I prefer the > term > e-stim. > > "Electric shock" implies that the stimulus is necessarily painful > and > injurious; it takes for granted that the stimulation is set at a > level that > will cause extreme discomfort and injury. By contrast, the e-stim > used in > dog training is at a barely perceptible level. It does not cause > the dog to > yelp in pain. It causes a dog to pause. In my opinion, e-stim is > far less > noxious and aversive to a dog than a blast of loud noise or > offensive odor. > > Amy > > Amelia D. Compton, Ph.D. > > Behavioral Psychologist & Canine Trainer > > Animal Behavior Solutions, Inc. > 5101-B Lakeside Avenue > Richmond, VA 23228 > phone: 804 264-4540 > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology Dept Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 From: IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com" "The Old Grey Mare" 5-JUN-2001 08:44:40.96 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs Hello all, I'm a horse trainer, but a bit of an unconventional one because I use a lot of positive reinforcement and almost never use punishment. I'm also a committed *lurker* on this list, but this post caught my eye because a friend of mine was having the exact same difficulty---door bolting-- with her very enthusiastic young Lab. I happened to be visiting this friend about a month ago and decided, as I was leaving, to stay a bit longer and see if I could help teach the dog a more desireable behavior. Using solely positive reinforcement, I was able to shape the dog to go to the living room and lie down whenever anyone went to the front door. We gradually got her to the point where my friend and I could stand in front of the wide-open door and chat, while the dog remained lying down in the living room, about 14 feet away. I want to say that this whole process only took 25-30 minutes, and involved no aversives whatsoever. I was very happy about this, because my friend had been told by the veterinarian that this behavior could not be changed without aversives or traditional obedience school, and I had thought "surely that's not right..." Anyway, with hopes that this doesn't pull the discussion too far off-course, I'll retreat into lurkdom again. Amy Coffman Painted Moon Ranch Colbert, Oklahoma USA From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 5-JUN-2001 10:29:02.83 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Here are my views on this noise thing... I am not quite sure what sort of behaviour Kathy wants to deter, but presumably you are trying to prevent an attack of some kind? I don't think that loud noises are much use as this kind of deterrent because the effect is so unpredictable with a strange dog. Even more so if the dog is carrying out some sort of territorial or defensive function when the sound is used. High pitched loud noises can trigger aggression, as might any truly aversive event that the dog can localise to the 'victim'. Noises that are high pitched or ultrasonic are worse because the operator is unaware of just how loud the noise is, and the dog is best able to localise sounds in this range. Phase and relative loudness [between signals reaching the ears] are used to localise sounds, so perhaps a dispersed sound with deliberately concoted phase shifts to make localisation difficult would make the sound more deterrent and less likely to trigger an attack? For a dog with an existing fear of loud noises any loud noise [dispersed or not] might produce an escape response, which is fine unless the operator is between the dog and its escape route when there could be a big problem. I think that the behaviour of a potential victim and an understanding of the situation in which the dog is aggressive are probably more important then the use of a sound deterrent, which could give the operator a false sense of security when dealing with 'aggressive dogs'. On the other hand, if the sound is to be used to punish other [non-aggressive] behaviours then it seems excessive. The kind of dog that barges doors, for example, can be trained using clicker methods or omission training as Amy suggests. By the way, punishment is the delivery or removal of a stimulus with the effect that the expression of a behaviour decreases. Withholding an expected reward is therefore a kind of punishment and so all training using positive reinforcement involves some kind of punishment too. Pedantic...probably! In my opinion the best way to increase tolerance to loud noises is not the flooding method; keeping a dog tethered when exposed to a fear eliciting stimulus is a good way to increase fear [in some dogs] or to elicit aggression from those who react against the individual restricting their escape from fear. It is much better to habituate young dogs to increasing noise levels [carefully] during the sensitive period, and then sustain regular exposure to noisy environments. I suspect that this is what Jeff and others do as a matter of course before they begin gun training. I would expect that the response of the horses to the new noise from a racetrack will depend on several things including: Their early exposure and tolerance to noises. The background level of noise in the place they live. Whether the noise from the track is continuous and predictable as opposed to episodic and unpredictable. Whether there is any possibility for them to move away form the sound source to avoid exposure. An animal that was not noise habituated by early experience and lives in an environment where there is little background noise would probably find the new noise quite frightening at first. The provision of some sort of 'escape route' by which to slightly reduce the noise level [standing behind a thick wall for example] would allow the horse some control over exposure which might aid habituation. If the sound form the track is continuous [but not excessive] and predictable then habituation is more likely than if the sound is very loud, sudden and unpredictable. Cars going around a track should produce a recognisable pattern of noise that is probably quite predictable. Predictability and controllability are important in these situations. Jon From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 5-JUN-2001 12:04:13.71 To: CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs > Do you know if any studies have been published on the perceived > (from the animal's point-of-view) degree of aversiveness of a > variety of negative reinforcements for dogs, similar to > studies which have been conducted on farm and laboratory species > (including the aversiveness of electric shocks)? > > Chris Is this a confusion? Negative reinforcement is the increase in the probability of or expression of a behaviour due to the removal of an aversive stimulus? Reinforcement alwasy refers to an increase in the strengthening of the response, unlike punishment where it is weakened. Do you therefore mean comparison of the aversiveness of a variety of stimuli used in the positive punishment of a behaviour [in order to reduce its probability or rate of expression]. It would presumably depend upon the motivation to perform the behaviour that is being punished? Either way I would be interested in any published research. Jon From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 5-JUN-2001 12:29:01.54 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Bowen" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 5:29 PM Subject: Re: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > Withholding an expected reward is therefore a kind of punishment and so all > training using positive reinforcement involves some kind of punishment too. > Pedantic...probably! > I would argue that this is not pedantic but fundamental when one considers the fact that non-reward and positive punishment trigger similar internal processes and emotional states. Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"Heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk" "Sarah Heath" 5-JUN-2001 13:01:27.67 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@sask. usask. ca" CC: Subj: FW: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff I agree with David that Jon's comments are fundamental to this issue of use of aversive stimuli in behaviour modification. I also would like to reinforce the issue raised by Jon's comments that "High pitched loud noises can trigger aggression, as might any truly aversive event that the dog can localise to the 'victim' and his observation that "the kind of dog that barges doors, for example, can be trained using clicker methods or omission training"., Best wishes Sarah Heath Sarah Heath BVSc MRCVS Behavioural Referrals 11 Cotebrook Drive Upton Chester Cheshire CH2 1RA England Tel: 44 1244 377365 Fax: 44 1244 399228 Email: heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Bowen" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 5:29 PM Subject: Re: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > Withholding an expected reward is therefore a kind of punishment and so all > training using positive reinforcement involves some kind of punishment too. > Pedantic...probably! > I would argue that this is not pedantic but fundamental when one considers the fact that non-reward and positive punishment trigger similar internal processes and emotional states. Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com" "The Old Grey Mare" 5-JUN-2001 15:45:52.53 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff -----Original Message----- From: David Appleby To: Applied-ethology Date: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 1:26 PM Subject: Re: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff < I would argue that this is not pedantic but fundamental when one considers the fact that non-reward and positive punishment trigger similar internal processes and emotional states.> Hello David, I would be very interested in reading more about the similarities in physiology and emotional states during non-reward and positive punishment, because what I've observed---in horses at least---is a very different body language and expression in the midst of these two situations. Could you point me to some papers on this? Thanks, ~Amy Coffman Painted Moon Ranch Colbert, Oklahoma USA From: IN%"p.hepper@qub.ac.uk" "Peter Hepper" 6-JUN-2001 01:36:47.32 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff I would be grateful if someone could tell me what 'positive punishment' is. As punishment is an aversive stimulus how can this be positive? Can find no references in my psychology texts. grateful for any info. peter hepper ---------------------- Prof Peter Hepper FBPsS Wellcome Trust Fetal Behaviour Research Centre School of Psychology Queen's University of Belfast Belfast BT7 1NN UK Tel : ++44 (0)28 9027 4230 Fax : ++44 (0)28 9066 4144 From: IN%"DMills@dmu.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" 6-JUN-2001 03:05:26.03 To: IN%"p.hepper@qub.ac.uk" "'Peter Hepper'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Positive and negative do not refer to the emotional impact but rather the issue of the relationship between reinforcing stimulus and effect on behaviour. If the presentation of something strengthens a response we refer to that as positive reinforcement, if we remove a stimulus to have the same effect, such as the release of bit pressure in the horse, that is negative reinforcement. There is good evidence that this evokes different emotional circuits in learning, although some psychologists eg Michael (1975 - Behaviorism 3: 33-44) argue that the two are the same since the presentation and removal of a stimulus still represent a change in stimulus in the environment and we cannnot easily distinguish which is effective - a somewhat narrow behaviourist perspective in my opinion). A similar proposal has been put forward for punishment whereby the presentation of a stimulus is positive punishment eg use of whip (note removal of the whip is not focussed on a specific behaviour) whereas the removal of a stimulus such as cessation of play when a dog gets over-excited may be seen as a form of negative punishment. the distinction here is a bit more dodgy, but whilst positive punishment induce fear, negative may induce varying levels of frustration Hope that clarifies Daniel Daniel Mills BVSc MRCVS Principal Lecturer in Behavioural Studies & Animal Welfare Animal Behaviour, Welfare and Cognition Group De Montfort University Lincoln Caythorpe Campus Caythorpe Lincs NG32 3EP UK Tel 44(0)1400 275629 e-mail dmills@dmu.ac.uk web-page http://www.dmu.ac.uk/ln/Agriculture/staffcvs/DanielS.Mills.htm -----Original Message----- From: Peter Hepper [mailto:p.hepper@qub.ac.uk] Sent: 06 June 2001 09:35 To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff I would be grateful if someone could tell me what 'positive punishment' is. As punishment is an aversive stimulus how can this be positive? Can find no references in my psychology texts. grateful for any info. peter hepper ---------------------- Prof Peter Hepper FBPsS Wellcome Trust Fetal Behaviour Research Centre School of Psychology Queen's University of Belfast Belfast BT7 1NN UK Tel : ++44 (0)28 9027 4230 Fax : ++44 (0)28 9066 4144 From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 6-JUN-2001 03:09:22.65 To: IN%"p.hepper@qub.ac.uk" "Peter Hepper", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Surely punishment is not an aversive stimulus. An effect cannot be the same as the event that precedes it. Punishment is the reduction of the probability or rate of expression of a behaviour resulting from the delivery of an aversive stimulus [positive punishment] or the removal of a reinforcing stimulus [negative punishment]. The terms positive and negative are used in the same kind of way as when talking about positive and negative reinforcement. These terms can be seen used in a number of texts and papers, an easily accessible example being David Lieberman's 'learning, behaviour and cognition'. I can search through and find some papers on the subject, or perhaps others can suggest some? Cheers, Jon From: IN%"EnjoyYourPet@aol.com" 6-JUN-2001 03:50:48.04 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Sound alarms and animals (and e-stim) Chris and Everyone, A good point. No, I don't, but I will definitely look to see what is there. If the appropriate study has not been done, I will plan to do it. Could you send me the references for the farm animal studies, as this is a literature I am not familiar with. Forgive me for jumping to a defensive posture in my email. I am a bit sensitive about being labeled as cruel by people who really do not take the time to understand what e-stim training is about. These same folks often routinely abuse their dogs in their use of the leash. I should add that e-stim is never my first method of choice with a normal dog. I should not have reacted emotionally on this scientific list. Please accept my apologies. I will be out of town for the next week, and out of touch with email. Once home, I'll do the lit review. Amy Amelia D. Compton, Ph.D. Behavioral Psychologist & Canine Trainer Animal Behavior Solutions, Inc. 5515 Cottage St. Richmond, VA 23228 phone: 804 264-4540 From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 6-JUN-2001 05:08:13.26 To: IN%"DMills@dmu.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" CC: IN%"p.hepper@qub.ac.uk" "'Peter Hepper'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Dear All, I agree with Danny's interpretation of the terms positive and negative reinforcement. However, I would appreciate clarification of the term 'punishment'. In the example of using a whip, I do not understand the difference between positive reinforcement and positive punishment - are these refering to the same aspect of learning, i.e. an increase in the probability of a behaviour being expressed, or does the term 'punishment' refer to the rider's perception of how appropriate the behaviour is. The term 'punishment' is rather emotive and suggests the animal has done something 'wrong' which needs to be corrected. Therefore, 'punishment' will always be a negative reinforcement. Or am I missing something here? Chris On Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:00:58 +0100 Daniel Mills wrote: > Positive and negative do not refer to the emotional impact but > rather the > issue of the relationship between reinforcing stimulus and effect on > behaviour. If the presentation of something strengthens a response > we refer > to that as positive reinforcement, if we remove a stimulus to have > the same > effect, such as the release of bit pressure in the horse, that is > negative > reinforcement. There is good evidence that this evokes different > emotional > circuits in learning, although some psychologists eg Michael (1975 > - > Behaviorism 3: 33-44) argue that the two are the same since the > presentation > and removal of a stimulus still represent a change in stimulus in > the > environment and we cannnot easily distinguish which is effective - a > somewhat narrow behaviourist perspective in my opinion). A similar > proposal > has been put forward for punishment whereby the presentation of a > stimulus > is positive punishment eg use of whip (note removal of the whip is > not > focussed on a specific behaviour) whereas the removal of a stimulus > such as > cessation of play when a dog gets over-excited may be seen as a > form of > negative punishment. the distinction here is a bit more dodgy, but > whilst > positive punishment induce fear, negative may induce varying levels > of > frustration > Hope that clarifies > Daniel > > Daniel Mills BVSc MRCVS > Principal Lecturer in Behavioural Studies & Animal Welfare > Animal Behaviour, Welfare and Cognition Group > De Montfort University Lincoln > Caythorpe Campus > Caythorpe > Lincs > NG32 3EP > UK > Tel 44(0)1400 275629 > e-mail dmills@dmu.ac.uk > web-page > http://www.dmu.ac.uk/ln/Agriculture/staffcvs/DanielS.Mills.htm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Hepper [mailto:p.hepper@qub.ac.uk] > Sent: 06 June 2001 09:35 > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > > > I would be grateful if someone could tell me what 'positive > punishment' > is. As punishment is an aversive stimulus how can this be > positive? > Can find no references in my psychology texts. grateful for any > info. > > peter hepper > > > ---------------------- > Prof Peter Hepper FBPsS > Wellcome Trust Fetal Behaviour Research Centre > School of Psychology > Queen's University of Belfast > Belfast > BT7 1NN > UK > Tel : ++44 (0)28 9027 4230 > Fax : ++44 (0)28 9066 4144 > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology Dept Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 From: IN%"EnjoyYourPet@aol.com" 6-JUN-2001 05:15:14.20 To: IN%"p.hepper@qub.ac.uk", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Dear Peter, You should be able to find this definition in any text of learning theory. It comes from the work of B F Skinner under the topic of operant conditioning. In brief, Skinner defined relationships of behavior to stimuli contingent upon behavior this way: Reinforcers ALWAYS increase the frequency of behavior that they follow. Punishers ALWAYS decrease the frequency of behavior that they follow. Stimuli can be said to be either appetitive ("pleasant") or aversive ("unpleasant") Stimuli can be either added to or removed from an animal's environment. Thus, Positive reinforcement= A behavior occurs, an appetive stimulus is added to the animal's environment, the behavior increases in frequency. EX: Dog sits immediately upon command, dog gets a bit of liver. Probability of dog sitting upon command in the future increases. Negative reinforcement= A behavior occurs, an aversive stimulus is removed from the animal's environment, the behavior increases in frequency. EX: Coming in out of the rain is negatively reinforced by the cessation of being sprinkled with cold water. Positive punishment= A behavior occurs, an aversive stimulus is added to the animal's environment, the behavior decreases in frequency. EX: A curious puppy investigate's a porcupine and gets several painful quills imbedded in its nose; the puppy will never again approach a porcupine. Negative punishment= A behavior occurs, and appetitive stimulus is removed from the animal's environment, the behavior decreases in frequency. CLASSIC EXAMPLE: My teenaged son comes home at 2 am instead of our agreed upon time of midnight; I remove his car keys for two weeks; subsequently, he comes home on time. The distinction between positive punishment and negative reinforcement is one of the two most confused concepts in psychology. (The other is the confusion of Schizophrenia with Dissociated (Multiple) Personality Disorder.) Hope this is helpful. Amy Amelia D. Compton, Ph.D. Behavioral Psychologist & Canine Trainer Animal Behavior Solutions, Inc. 5101-B Lakeside Avenue Richmond, VA 23228 phone: 804 264-4540 From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 6-JUN-2001 06:05:35.70 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs Dear All, Several people have asked for references of comparisons of aversive stimuli. Below are a few to get started with. Regards, Chris Pajor EA, Rushen J, de Passille AMB. (2000). Aversion learning techniques to evaluate dairy cattle handling practices. Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci. 69 (2): 89-102 Rushen J. and Congdon P. (1986). Relative aversion of sheep to simulated shearing with and without electro-immobilization. Aust. J. Agr Res. 26 (5): 535-537 Cooper, J., Mason, G. and Raj, M. (1998) Determination of the aversion of farmed mink (Mustela vision) to carbon dioxide. Veterinary Record, 143: 359-361 Raj, A. B. M. (1996). Aversive reactions of turkeys to argon, carbon dioxide and a mixture of carbon dioxide and argon. Veterinary Record, 138: 592-593. Raj, A.B.M. and Gregory, N.G. (1995). Welfare implications of the gas stunning of pigs 1. Determination of aversion to the initial inhalation of carbon dioxide or argon. Animal Welfare, 4: 273-280 Raj, A. B. M., Johnson, S. P., Wotton, S. B. and McInstry, J. L. 1997. The Veterinary Journal, 153: 329-340. Stern S, Laties VG (1998). 60 Hz electric fields and incandescent light as aversive stimuli controlling the behavior of rats responding under concurrent schedules of reinforcement Bioelectromagnetics 19 (4): 210-221 Kohm, B. and Dennis. M. (1972). Observation and discrimination learning in the rat: Specific and non-specific effects. J. Comp. Phys. Psychol. 78: 292-296 On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 19:04:32 +0100 Jon Bowen wrote: > > Do you know if any studies have been published on the perceived > > (from the animal's point-of-view) degree of aversiveness of a > > variety of negative reinforcements for dogs, similar to > > studies which have been conducted on farm and laboratory species > > (including the aversiveness of electric shocks)? > > > > Chris > > Is this a confusion? Negative reinforcement is the increase in the > probability of or expression of a behaviour due to the removal of an > aversive stimulus? > Reinforcement alwasy refers to an increase in the strengthening of > the > response, unlike punishment where it is weakened. > > Do you therefore mean comparison of the aversiveness of a variety > of stimuli > used in the positive punishment of a behaviour [in order to reduce > its > probability or rate of expression]. > > It would presumably depend upon the motivation to perform the > behaviour that > is being punished? > > Either way I would be interested in any published research. > > Jon > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology Dept Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 From: IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com" "The Old Grey Mare" 6-JUN-2001 06:33:02.68 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Hello Chris et al, I don't know if this is strictly correct, but my understanding is that at least one significant difference between a punishment and a reinforcement (positive or negative) is that punishments are administered *after* the specific behavior has occurred, while reinforcements are set up to be encountered *during* the behavior. I do agree that the word "punishment" carries strong connotations which may or may not be accurate. "Positive reinforcement" muddies this, because so many positive reinforcers are also positive in the emotive sense; I can't think of one which isn't, to be honest, but would love an example if someone could provide it. ~Amy Coffman From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 6-JUN-2001 06:49:25.82 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff good morning - By chance, I've had to put this to the test: my hounds have been attacked lately by some untrained aggressive dogs and I've started carrying repellant. Even at the edge of the nose, not hitting eyes or nose mind you, the charge stops. Not from the owners;-)) - but now U've taken also to carrying a walking stick. More chance, when one wag suggested a loud horn, I explained how the noise would tend to make it worse which I read Mr. Bowen and Mr. Appleby's to explain very well. I think too some of what's come before here for work with reaction to thunder and fireworks applies also to loud sounds used to stop or change behaviour. margory cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: EnjoyYourPet@aol.com To: p.hepper@qub.ac.uk ; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 4:14 AM Subject: Re: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Negative reinforcement= A behavior occurs, an aversive stimulus is removed from the animal's environment, the behavior increases in frequency. EX: Coming in out of the rain is negatively reinforced by the cessation of being sprinkled with cold water. Positive punishment= A behavior occurs, an aversive stimulus is added to the animal's environment, the behavior decreases in frequency. EX: A curious puppy investigate's a porcupine and gets several painful quills imbedded in its nose; the puppy will never again approach a porcupine. From: IN%"lboyle@MOOREPARK.TEAGASC.IE" "Laura Boyle" 6-JUN-2001 10:56:24.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Favour! Hello! This is a request for a favour from any Dutch researchers working on sow behaviour and welfare in groups or any Dutch farmers operating group housing systems for pregnant sows...... A postgraduate student that works with me is in the running for funding to conduct a fact finding mission to the Netherlands. She proposes to visit research centres/universities/farms with the intention of compiling a report for the Irish Pig Health Society on group housing in the Netherlands. Although the funding may not be confirmed she is in need of a list of names/organisations that would, hypothetically, be willing to allow her to visit and share their practical/research experiences with her. Thanks a million! Laura Laura Boyle PhD., Pig Production Department, Teagasc - Moorepark Research Centre, Fermoy, Co. Cork, IRELAND. Telephone: +353-25-42389 Fax : +353-25-42340 From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 6-JUN-2001 12:19:08.00 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff I think Amy's examples give a good idea of what the differences are. The key is that reinforcement always refers to increase in rate of expression or probability of a behaviour whereas punishment is always the opposite; a decrease in expression or probability. This takes into account the effect of punishment or reinforcement on future behaviour as well as the immediate effect on what the individual is doing at the time of punishment. Positive and negative are just used to signify the introduction or withdrawal of an appetitive or aversive event/stimulus. Confusion about this is very common because punishment is mostly understood in terms of the intention of the person delivering it rather than the outcome or the effect on the recipient. What is punishing to one individual may be insignificant or even reinforcing to another. The technical definition avoids misuses such as 'I punished the dog by smacking him but he carried on regardless' because in terms of outcome this was not [in this case positive] punishment. Jon From: IN%"john.jac@ava.com.au" "John and Jacqui Ley" 6-JUN-2001 16:08:45.88 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethologists" CC: Subj: introduction hello List, Just a brief introduction and then I will go back to lurking. I am a veterinary behaviouralist and a dog trainer. I have a particular interest in fear and anxiety states (am currently living with a male GSP with seperation anxiety- so the interest is selfishly motivated!). I am currently working on a project to unravel fear of novelty (neophobia) in dogs to see if we can develop a test to assess dogs for their potential for fear induced aggression. Jacqui Ley BVSc.(Hons), MACVS (Animal Behaivour) Animal Behaviour Consultations From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 6-JUN-2001 17:50:16.96 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Peter, You may find an article I made available on the web entitled "Confusing Consequences: A Brief Introduction to Operant Conditioning" to be useful in answering your question. Be well, Dr. P --- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk --- --- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx --- --- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm --- --- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu --- --- Homepage - http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/mphome.htm --- Dog Training Site - http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog -----Original Message----- From: Peter Hepper [mailto:p.hepper@qub.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 3:35 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff I would be grateful if someone could tell me what 'positive punishment' is. As punishment is an aversive stimulus how can this be positive? Can find no references in my psychology texts. grateful for any info. peter hepper ---------------------- Prof Peter Hepper FBPsS Wellcome Trust Fetal Behaviour Research Centre School of Psychology Queen's University of Belfast Belfast BT7 1NN UK Tel : ++44 (0)28 9027 4230 Fax : ++44 (0)28 9066 4144 From: IN%"JLGhmn8532@aol.com" 6-JUN-2001 21:09:32.08 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Peter, Regardless of positive or negative, reinforcement increases behavior and punishment decreases it. Plain and simple. Jeff Gehman Consultant Houston, TX From: IN%"sbxng@yahoo.co.uk" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Nigel=20Goodwin?=" 7-JUN-2001 10:09:45.23 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and... humans At the risk of committing anthropomorphism... the fire drill that just happened a few minutes ago in the library I'm sitting in right now is a case in point. Most of the people in here (myself included, I have to confess) just ignored it, until one of the security staff came in and glared at us all for not moving. The alarm itself was not particularly loud or shrill, and being city slickers, we are so accustomed to false alarms, drills, burglar alarms, car alarms etc that our conditioned response these days (dangerous though it may be) is to ignore them. As we came back in, I heard one of the librarians saying "The only thing that will work is an alarm so loud that they can't stand it." Back to the dogs and stuff... since an alarm is specifically designed to be a noxious stimulus, is there some threshold level of loudness and unpleasantness, beyond which an animal can never be conditioned to tolerate it? Worth considering in this escalating war of alarm effectiveness vs. human apathy! Nigel From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 7-JUN-2001 10:12:00.04 To: IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com" "The Old Grey Mare", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Daer Amy, For an animal both punishment and reinforcement need to be need to be contiguous with the behaviour if they are to be associated, unless combined with a secondary reinforcer or punisher. Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Grey Mare" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 1:43 PM Subject: Re: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > Hello Chris et al, > > I don't know if this is strictly correct, but my understanding is that at > least one significant difference between a punishment and a reinforcement > (positive or negative) is that punishments are administered *after* the > specific behavior has occurred, while reinforcements are set up to be > encountered *during* the behavior. I do agree that the word "punishment" > carries strong connotations which may or may not be accurate. "Positive > reinforcement" muddies this, because so many positive reinforcers are also > positive in the emotive sense; I can't think of one which isn't, to be > honest, but would love an example if someone could provide it. > > ~Amy Coffman > > > > I agree with Danny's interpretation of the terms positive and > negative reinforcement. However, I would appreciate clarification > of the term 'punishment'. In the example of using a whip, I do not > understand the difference between positive reinforcement and > positive punishment - are these refering to the same aspect of > learning, i.e. an increase in the probability of a behaviour > being expressed, or does the term 'punishment' refer to the > rider's perception of how appropriate the behaviour is. > The term 'punishment' is rather emotive and suggests the animal has > done something 'wrong' which needs to be corrected. Therefore, > 'punishment' will always be a negative reinforcement. Or am I > missing something here? > > Chris> > > > From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 7-JUN-2001 10:13:05.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Dear All, In recent postings, there has been discussion of using whips, electric shocks, long-term tethering and repeated exposure to highly aversive stimuli to train animals. It has ocurred to me that as a scientist, it would be illegal (prosecutable by a prison sentence) for me to use these methods on laboratory or farm animals in my research. At the very least, I would have to gain a Home Office (UK) licence and this would be HIGHLY restricted and closely monitored. What legislation is there to regulate the use of potentially aversive stimuli on companion animals? Please note this message is NOT intended to suggest that any members subscribing to this list are being cruel or behaving inappropraitely - I am simply intrigued to understand differences in legislation regarding animal welfare. Chris ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology Dept Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 7-JUN-2001 10:48:33.70 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_iTYMHT46EvTaA+cHoLuXcw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Sherwin" To: "Daniel Mills" Cc: "'Peter Hepper'" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:01 PM Subject: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > > > Dear All, > > I agree with Danny's interpretation of the terms positive and > negative reinforcement. However, I would appreciate clarification > of the term 'punishment'. In the example of using a whip, I do not > understand the difference between positive reinforcement and > positive punishment - are these refering to the same aspect of > learning, i.e. an increase in the probability of a behaviour > being expressed, or does the term 'punishment' refer to the > rider's perception of how appropriate the behaviour is. > The term 'punishment' is rather emotive and suggests the animal has > done something 'wrong' which needs to be corrected. Therefore, > 'punishment' will always be a negative reinforcement. Or am I > missing something here? > Hello, I am hoping that a file I have attached will get through the list-server, I have made it as possible. Hopefully it will clarify. Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. 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CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff >I don't know if this is strictly correct, but my understanding is that at > least one significant difference between a punishment and a reinforcement > (positive or negative) is that punishments are administered *after* the > specific behavior has occurred, while reinforcements are set up to be > encountered *during* the behavior. No, punishment is most successful if it is delivered at the earliest point in a behaviour. For example, if we want to punish a dog that is about to run and steal an ice cream from a child or chase a rabbit there would be little point in doing it after the event. At that point whatever punishment is delivered might happen as the dog returns to the owner [a behaviour that we want!] and the dog has already derived a significant reward from what it has done. The likelihood of the dog returning happily to the owner would decrease [punished] and the stealing would increase [reinforced]! Instead the punishment is best delivered at the first sign that the dog begins to move, or perhaps even to attend to the child/rabbit, i.e. as soon as its intention to act becomes observable through behaviour. In this instance the reinforcement is coming at the end of the behaviour and we must punish before the dog gets it, and also reward some other behaviour as an alternative to chasing or stealing. Another point is this: as the dog, in this example, gets to the reward and begins to consume it, whatever aversive event we would require to stop the behaviour would have to be quite powerful. On the other hand, if the punishment is delivered at the first sign of an intention to run off and get the reward then the aversive event might be very mild, especielly if combined with positive reinforcemet of a competing behaviour. So using a shock collar to stop a dog as it gets to its target is a poor [excessive and inhumane] substitute for using a more appropriately timed and more moderate punishment. Timing, skill and good judgement are needed in the latter , which is perhaps why shock collars are sold [in the UK at least] to the general public and others who are lacking in these. Delayed punishment that occurs after the behaviour may appear to be random or associated with another behaviour that we do not want to punish. Either could lead to confusion and anxiety because the animal may not be able to make an association between the punishment and a specific [avoidable] action. I guess the difficulty in all references to punishment is that any sentence with that word in it assumes that the punishment actually works! The punisher is assumed to have been effective.Otherwise all we are talking about delivering an aversive or taking away an appetitive event that has no effect on behaviour. Jon From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 7-JUN-2001 14:19:29.30 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Sound alarms and animals (and e-stim) Thanks to Amy for the reference to Skinner's original work. Also for the rather nice illustrations of the various forms of punishment and reinforcement, which make the situation quite clear. From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 7-JUN-2001 16:28:30.66 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "'Chris Sherwin'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Chris and others This issue is also relevant to training of other animals eg circus. Qld has a Code of Practice for the welfare of circus animals, which is a voluntary code under our current legislation, although that may change in the near future (with a new bill been approved by cabinet). Some quotes from the Code are: "training methods used must not be capable of causing distress, pain or injury ... in the long or short term", and specifically prohibits the use of fire. "all training methods must be based on ... the anticipation of a reward for successfully completing a desired behaviour. Negative reinforcement must never be used." "The reward ... must be immediate and tangible for the animal." "Physical punishment is not permissible on any animal." "Any device capable of administering an electric shock must not be used for training animals." "The use of sharp spurs, or spurs with fixed rowels, is banned." "Animals must not be struck with any training device unless the safety of humans or other animals is under direct threat". There are also restrictions placed on the methods and durations of tethering depending upon the species. Whilst adoption of this Code is currently voluntary the Code can be used as a basis for prosecution/defence. Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Sherwin [SMTP:chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] > Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2001 18:23 > To: Applied ethology > Cc: Chris Sherwin > Subject: Re: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > > > Dear All, > > In recent postings, there has been discussion of using whips, > electric shocks, long-term tethering and repeated exposure to highly > aversive stimuli to train animals. It has ocurred to me > that as a scientist, it would be illegal (prosecutable by a prison > sentence) for me to use these methods on laboratory or farm animals > in my research. At the very least, I would have to gain a Home > Office (UK) licence and this would be HIGHLY restricted and closely > monitored. What legislation is there to regulate the use of > potentially aversive stimuli on companion animals? > Please note this message is NOT intended to suggest that > any members subscribing to this list are being cruel or behaving > inappropraitely - I am simply intrigued to understand differences > in legislation regarding animal welfare. > > Chris > ............................................................. > Dr C.M. Sherwin > UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > Centre for Behavioural Biology > Dept Clinical Veterinary Science > University of Bristol > BS40 5DU > > Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 > ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 7-JUN-2001 17:17:32.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: Monosodium glutamate Hi, Does anyone have any references on neurotoxic, developmental and behavioural effects of MSG in neonates? Cheers, Jon From: IN%"lirio@uol.com.br" "Mauro Lantzman" 7-JUN-2001 18:31:11.73 To: IN%"" CC: Subj: Companion animal bonding scale Hello, my name is Mauro Lantzman and I am looking for this questionare, and its scoring procedure: Companion animal bonding scale Poresky RH; Hendrix C; Mosier JE; Samuelson ML Could you help me Thank you Mauro From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 7-JUN-2001 18:59:17.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Sherwin" Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 1:22 AM > In recent postings, there has been discussion of using whips, > electric shocks, long-term tethering and repeated exposure to highly > aversive stimuli to train animals. It has ocurred to me > that as a scientist, it would be illegal (prosecutable by a prison > sentence) for me to use these methods on laboratory or farm animals > in my research. hello - What did I miss? I've not seen anything that indicated use of any method for _abuse_ to the animal. By this, I wonder if electric collars are forbidden in your parts nowadays? Properly used, I know trainers here who are having terrific success and very happy accomplished dogs. I thought all this discussion actually got started over concern that loud noises would have a significantly adverse effect? I reckon my concern is that if we're not careful, then precautions to protect dogs from aggressive dogs (and owners) -- well, the messenger will get kicked in the face instead of the aggressor. margory, who this week by chance has been the messenger.......... From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 8-JUN-2001 01:32:12.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network" CC: Subj: Shrieking prey and predatory grip There is something about the shriek of a cat that loosens the grip of those trying to restrain the animal for legitimate veterinary purposes. Such is the speed of this predator vs. prey transaction that bloody damage will ensue if the sinews of the grasping clinician are not stiffened by timely and sergeant major-like exhortations such as -"DON'T LET GO!". There is a type of confident (or implacable) grip that can terminate the escape stratagem or (better still) deter its onset. However, in the context of attack by natural predators with the full genetic repertoire of kills (this I think embraces nearly all cats and a cohort of rather special dogs) the prey shriek may serve as encouragement, feedback or even an instigating trigger. The shrieking 'tells' the predator that its grip is wrong. Silence 'tells' the predator that its prey is dead. I mention this because some of the most dreadful incidents involving dogs and dead humans bear analysis of these events. Shrieking girls, sneezing owners and sharp expostulations in conversation have been associated with attacks. I have lately reviewed some of my records and reappraised some of my views about dog a human fatalities and realised that some of the more appalling attacks may have been protracted by the time it has taken for the dog to finally tear out the shrieking larynx. I believe people wandering in Grizzly Bear country are advised to keep very still and quiet it they are about to eaten! Certainly British subalterns (junior officers) of the 19 hundreds were admonished, in the event of being shot, to 'toll quietly to the rear so as not to upset the soldiery by unseemly screaming. Hope springs eternal. Robin Walker. Veterinarian once more in the breach. From: IN%"Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de" "Andreas Briese" 8-JUN-2001 02:03:25.05 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff To Chris and others, beside national legislation a look into the European Convention for the protection of Pet Animals (Nov, 13th, 1987) http://conventions.coe.int/treaty/en/treaties/html/125.htm especially the Articles 3(!!), 7(!), 9 and 10 may be of interest. > Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:22:38 +0100 > From: Chris Sherwin > Subject: Re: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > To: Applied ethology > Cc: Chris Sherwin > Priority: NORMAL > > Dear All, > > In recent postings, there has been discussion of using whips, > electric shocks, long-term tethering and repeated exposure to highly > aversive stimuli to train animals. It has ocurred to me > that as a scientist, it would be illegal (prosecutable by a prison > sentence) for me to use these methods on laboratory or farm animals > in my research. At the very least, I would have to gain a Home > Office (UK) licence and this would be HIGHLY restricted and closely > monitored. What legislation is there to regulate the use of > potentially aversive stimuli on companion animals? > Please note this message is NOT intended to suggest that > any members subscribing to this list are being cruel or behaving > inappropraitely - I am simply intrigued to understand differences > in legislation regarding animal welfare. > > Chris > ............................................................. > Dr C.M. Sherwin > UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > Centre for Behavioural Biology > Dept Clinical Veterinary Science > University of Bristol > BS40 5DU > > Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Institut fuer Tierhygiene, Tierschutz & Nutztierethologie Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover (Institute of Animal Hygiene, Welfare and Farm Animal Ethologie) (School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover) Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese Buenteweg 17p 30559 Hannover Tel.: (0511) 953-8837 (0511) 120 2102 Fax.: (0511) 953-8588 (0511) 120 99 2102 e-mail: Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de alternativ (grosse Attachments): Andreas_Briese@animcare-sci.de ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 8-JUN-2001 02:44:11.30 To: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" CC: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff David, Many thanks for the attachment. There is obviously still some debate about what the terms 'punishment' and 'reinforcement' mean. To be honest, I have not come across the term 'punishment' used in this sense in my reading of animal psychology and animal behaviour. Is it used widely, or is it a term gaining recent popularity - perhaps amongst animal trainers? Regards, Chris On Thu, 07 Jun 2001 10:30:13 +0100 David Appleby wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Sherwin" > To: "Daniel Mills" > Cc: "'Peter Hepper'" ; > > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:01 PM > Subject: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > I agree with Danny's interpretation of the terms positive and > > negative reinforcement. However, I would appreciate clarification > > of the term 'punishment'. In the example of using a whip, I do not > > understand the difference between positive reinforcement and > > positive punishment - are these refering to the same aspect of > > learning, i.e. an increase in the probability of a behaviour > > being expressed, or does the term 'punishment' refer to the > > rider's perception of how appropriate the behaviour is. > > The term 'punishment' is rather emotive and suggests the animal > has > > done something 'wrong' which needs to be corrected. Therefore, > > 'punishment' will always be a negative reinforcement. Or am I > > missing something here? > > > > > Hello, > > I am hoping that a file I have attached will get through the > list-server, I > have made it as possible. Hopefully it will clarify. > > Best wishes. > > David > > ---------------------------------------- > Name:David Appleby > Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, > Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. > WR8 9AB.England. > Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 > Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 > E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk > WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk > ---------------------------------------- > > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology Dept Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 8-JUN-2001 03:00:05.50 To: IN%"Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de" "Andreas Briese" CC: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Andreas, Many thanks for this. It makes very intersting reading, especially alongside Carol Petherick's posting. Chris On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:02:09 +0100 Andreas Briese wrote: > To Chris and others, > > beside national legislation a look into the European Convention for > the protection of Pet Animals (Nov, 13th, 1987) > http://conventions.coe.int/treaty/en/treaties/html/125.htm > especially the Articles 3(!!), 7(!), 9 and 10 may be of interest. > > > > Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:22:38 +0100 > > From: Chris Sherwin > > Subject: Re: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > > To: Applied ethology > > Cc: Chris Sherwin > > Priority: NORMAL > > > > > Dear All, > > > > In recent postings, there has been discussion of using whips, > > electric shocks, long-term tethering and repeated exposure to > highly > > aversive stimuli to train animals. It has ocurred to me > > that as a scientist, it would be illegal (prosecutable by a > prison > > sentence) for me to use these methods on laboratory or farm > animals > > in my research. At the very least, I would have to gain a Home > > Office (UK) licence and this would be HIGHLY restricted and > closely > > monitored. What legislation is there to regulate the use of > > potentially aversive stimuli on companion animals? > > Please note this message is NOT intended to suggest that > > any members subscribing to this list are being cruel or behaving > > inappropraitely - I am simply intrigued to understand differences > > in legislation regarding animal welfare. > > > > Chris > > ............................................................. > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > Centre for Behavioural Biology > > Dept Clinical Veterinary Science > > University of Bristol > > BS40 5DU > > > > Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 > > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Institut fuer Tierhygiene, Tierschutz & Nutztierethologie > Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover > (Institute of Animal Hygiene, Welfare and Farm Animal Ethologie) > (School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover) > Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese > > Buenteweg 17p > 30559 Hannover > > Tel.: (0511) 953-8837 > (0511) 120 2102 > Fax.: (0511) 953-8588 > (0511) 120 99 2102 > e-mail: Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de > alternativ (grosse Attachments): Andreas_Briese@animcare-sci.de > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology Dept Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 8-JUN-2001 03:59:16.65 To: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > > In recent postings, there has been discussion of using whips, > > electric shocks, long-term tethering and repeated exposure to highly > > aversive stimuli to train animals. It has ocurred to me > > that as a scientist, it would be illegal (prosecutable by a prison > > sentence) for me to use these methods on laboratory or farm animals > > in my research. Hi Margory, I saw the references to shocks, but none to whips or long term tethering, so perhaps some emails are not getting through to everybody. For example, I did not get the message from Chris Sherwin that you quote in your reply! The point I think Chris is, rightly, making is that he would not be able to get a home office license to do research that involved the methods that are routinely being talked about as part of training. >I reckon my concern is that if we're not careful, then precautions to >protect dogs from aggressive dogs (and owners) -- well, the messenger will get kicked in the face instead of the aggressor. I understand what you are saying, but a dog that displays aggression due to fearfulness [perhaps through poor socialisation or a number of aversive experiences and associations, made worse by illness or pain] should be considered as a patient and not some a pathologically violent criminal in need of reform through punishment. On shock collars... Amy sent me some information about the kind of electrical collars she is using and it sounds like some of the equipment you have available in the States differs substantially from what we have in the UK, so comparisons of the use of such collars will be difficult. The way she is using them is also completely different from what I see over here, possibly because in the UK the market for shock collars is largely composed of members of the general public and inexperienced trainers who want a 'quick fix' to solve a problem. The collars in the UK are designed to deliver the kind of shock that is usually associated with a powerful cattle fence, and often go much stronger than that. There have been a number of injuries associated with their use. This is probably because the collars are sold [in the UK] not only on the basis of training but also the sense of power and authority that the user feels by having the device. Inexperienced people who witness extreme behaviour often assume that it demands extreme treatment. The irony is that incompetent seek to use a powerful shock or other physical punishment because they lack the patience, training and skill to use less potent punishments or positive reinforcement methods. Also, for a number of the people that use them in the UK there seems to be a macho culture surrounding shock collars. I have seen them misused as a form of retribution for misbehaviour after the event [delayed punishment] and by owners who simply seek to exert power over their animals through pain and fear. My old boss [a vet!!!!] had a shock collar; when his dog ran away from him he would repeatedly press the button while the dog was in undergrowth nowhere to be seen. He even activated it when the dog was running back to him, again out of pure vengeance. We would all think this as moronic, but there was no set of instructions that explained how to use the collar. The kind of person who yells at their dog and hits it when it is slow to come back might well do the same thing! Failure to respond to these collars also appears to be used as a way of deciding the animal's fate [by incompetent trainers]. They see failure to respond as an indication that the animal was 'bad in the first place' and will not respond to other treatment. This often forces the owner to seek euthanasia because they have been convinced that if such an extreme method of treatment has not worked then nothing else will. As a vet I have had such cases brought to me. This is I suspect where the difficulties of talking about these devices come from; the equipment is possibly different, it is certainly being used differently and the kind of people having access to shock collars is different because of the marketing strategy of the companies selling them. Jon From: IN%"cmejdell@online.no" "Cecilie Marie Mejdell" 8-JUN-2001 04:01:47.12 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: wind-sucking Hello Does anyone "out there" have any suggestions on how to try to stop wind-sucking? The problem horse is a 3 year old mare, a norwegian fjord pony. There is nothing special about the environment, it seems OK. The horse is kept together with other horses, in single boxes, fed 8 kg hay a day + some concentrates and minerals/vitamins, is let out in a paddock 10 hours a day with company, and is trained twice a week. It is possible that the wind-sucking has been going on for some while, without the owner being aware of it (there is hardly a sign of wood-chewing in the stable and the owner bought the horse 3 months ago.) But now, after the horses returned home for a period after two weeks on pasture day and night, the wind-sucking has exploded, and is exhibited both out in the paddock and in the stable. I guess that a neck-collar works by physically preventing the contraction of the muscles involved. Is it possible to break the behaviour, to change the motivation? Regards Cecilie Mejdell Cecilie Mejdell, DVM National Center for Veterinary Research and Commercial Services ltd (VESO) N-2500 Tynset Norway From: IN%"Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de" "Andreas Briese" 8-JUN-2001 04:07:23.69 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Jon and others, maybe you'll find the following aspect interesting. I feel, the different postings are very much concentrated on single individuum. Can't imagine any allday situation in which an animal is thislike isolated. Especially in social animals or animals integrated in a group of variant spezies (man-dog) also the "overall reaction" (not only i. s. of communication signs) of the other members of the group will be a "modulator" of any individual reaction. Futhermore also environment "reaction" will influence the individual reaction to stimulus (nobody jumping up because of fire alarm in the libary in case of Nigel's anthromorphism example :-) or birds flying up after a bang). Maybe this will be of higher interest if stimulus is unknown to the animal and if the animal is in an sensible stage (puppies). An example may be the experience while cow vaccination in a herd after one cow has set alarm on. This can be something special in case of electric stimuli. Look at a group of dog in the moments after one is treated with e-collar shock while others can't locate the source of his suffering . greetings andreas Sorry for my poor english i'm a little in a hurry, hope point is .. clear > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 17:29:17 +0100 > From: Jon Bowen > Subject: Re: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Here are my views on this noise thing... > > I am not quite sure what sort of behaviour Kathy wants to deter, but > presumably you are trying to prevent an attack of some kind? > > I don't think that loud noises are much use as this kind of deterrent > because the effect is so unpredictable with a strange dog. > Even more so if the dog is carrying out some sort of territorial or > defensive function when the sound is used. > > High pitched loud noises can trigger aggression, as might any truly aversive > event that the dog can localise to the 'victim'. > > Noises that are high pitched or ultrasonic are worse because the operator is > unaware of just how loud the noise is, and the dog is best able to localise > sounds in this range. > Phase and relative loudness [between signals reaching the ears] are used to > localise sounds, so perhaps a dispersed sound with deliberately concoted > phase shifts to make localisation difficult would make the sound more > deterrent and less likely to trigger an attack? > > For a dog with an existing fear of loud noises any loud noise [dispersed or > not] might produce an escape response, which is fine unless the operator is > between the dog and its escape route when there could be a big problem. > > I think that the behaviour of a potential victim and an understanding of > the situation in which the dog is aggressive are probably more important > then the use of a sound deterrent, which could give the operator a false > sense of security when dealing with 'aggressive dogs'. > > On the other hand, if the sound is to be used to punish other > [non-aggressive] behaviours then it seems excessive. > The kind of dog that barges doors, for example, can be trained using clicker > methods or omission training as Amy suggests. > > By the way, punishment is the delivery or removal of a stimulus with the > effect that the expression of a behaviour decreases. > Withholding an expected reward is therefore a kind of punishment and so all > training using positive reinforcement involves some kind of punishment too. > Pedantic...probably! > > In my opinion the best way to increase tolerance to loud noises is not the > flooding method; keeping a dog tethered when exposed to a fear eliciting > stimulus is a good way to increase fear [in some dogs] or to elicit > aggression from those who react against the individual restricting their > escape from fear. > It is much better to habituate young dogs to increasing noise levels > [carefully] during the sensitive period, and then sustain regular exposure > to noisy environments. I suspect that this is what Jeff and others do as a > matter of course before they begin gun training. > > I would expect that the response of the horses to the new noise from a > racetrack will depend on several things including: > Their early exposure and tolerance to noises. > The background level of noise in the place they live. > Whether the noise from the track is continuous and predictable as opposed to > episodic and unpredictable. > Whether there is any possibility for them to move away form the sound source > to avoid exposure. > > An animal that was not noise habituated by early experience and lives in an > environment where there is little background noise would probably find the > new noise quite frightening at first. > The provision of some sort of 'escape route' by which to slightly reduce the > noise level [standing behind a thick wall for example] would allow the horse > some control over exposure which might aid habituation. > If the sound form the track is continuous [but not excessive] and > predictable then habituation is more likely than if the sound is very loud, > sudden and unpredictable. > Cars going around a track should produce a recognisable pattern of noise > that is probably quite predictable. > > Predictability and controllability are important in these situations. > > Jon > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Institut fuer Tierhygiene, Tierschutz & Nutztierethologie Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover (Institute of Animal Hygiene, Welfare and Farm Animal Ethologie) (School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover) Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese Buenteweg 17p 30559 Hannover Tel.: (0511) 953-8837 (0511) 120 2102 Fax.: (0511) 953-8588 (0511) 120 99 2102 e-mail: Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de alternativ (grosse Attachments): Andreas_Briese@animcare-sci.de ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 8-JUN-2001 04:34:18.05 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" CC: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Jon, You are correct. I was trying to highlight that laboratory animals are highly protected by legislation whereas this appears to be less stringent (or at least policed less systematically) for companion animals. The methods I was referring to were: 1) Danny Mills' comments on using a whip to train a horse. This, of course, is a very common practice, but I am certain I would not be allowed to use a whip to train my laboratory mice to press an operant lever! 2) Someone (aplogies for forgetting who) referred to placing a dog on a leash and giving it repeated exposures to a noise if finds distressing until it no longer responds ('flooding' I think). Again, if I wished to examine this in the laboratory (perhaps to test its efficacy as a method of training), I would almost certainly have to go on a Home Office course and get a licence specifying the duration, number of exposures, numbers of animal, etc. regards to all Chris On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:53:57 +0100 Jon Bowen wrote: > > > In recent postings, there has been discussion of using whips, > > > electric shocks, long-term tethering and repeated exposure to > highly > > > aversive stimuli to train animals. It has ocurred to me > > > that as a scientist, it would be illegal (prosecutable by a > prison > > > sentence) for me to use these methods on laboratory or farm > animals > > > in my research. > > Hi Margory, > > I saw the references to shocks, but none to whips or long term > tethering, so > perhaps some emails are not getting through to everybody. > For example, I did not get the message from Chris Sherwin that you > quote in > your reply! > > The point I think Chris is, rightly, making is that he would not be > able to > get a home office license to do research that involved the methods > that are > routinely being talked about as part of training. > > >I reckon my concern is that if we're not careful, then precautions > to > >protect dogs from aggressive dogs (and owners) -- well, the > messenger will > get kicked in the face instead of the aggressor. > > I understand what you are saying, but a dog that displays > aggression due to > fearfulness [perhaps through poor socialisation or a number of > aversive > experiences and associations, made worse by illness or pain] should > be > considered as a patient and not some a pathologically violent > criminal in > need of reform through punishment. > > On shock collars... > Amy sent me some information about the kind of electrical collars > she is > using and it sounds like some of the equipment you have available > in the > States differs substantially from what we have in the UK, so > comparisons of > the use of such collars will be difficult. > > The way she is using them is also completely different from what I > see over > here, possibly because in the UK the market for shock collars is > largely > composed of members of the general public and inexperienced > trainers who > want a 'quick fix' to solve a problem. > The collars in the UK are designed to deliver the kind of shock > that is > usually associated with a powerful cattle fence, and often go much > stronger > than that. > There have been a number of injuries associated with their use. > This is probably because the collars are sold [in the UK] not only > on the > basis of training but also the sense of power and authority that > the user > feels by having the device. > Inexperienced people who witness extreme behaviour often assume > that it > demands extreme treatment. > The irony is that incompetent seek to use a powerful shock or other > physical punishment because they lack the patience, training and > skill to > use less potent punishments or positive reinforcement methods. > > Also, for a number of the people that use them in the UK there > seems to be a > macho culture surrounding shock collars. > I have seen them misused as a form of retribution for misbehaviour > after the > event [delayed punishment] and by owners who simply seek to exert > power over > their animals through pain and fear. > My old boss [a vet!!!!] had a shock collar; when his dog ran away > from him > he would repeatedly press the button while the dog was in > undergrowth > nowhere to be seen. > He even activated it when the dog was running back to him, again > out of pure > vengeance. > We would all think this as moronic, but there was no set of > instructions > that explained how to use the collar. > The kind of person who yells at their dog and hits it when it is > slow to > come back might well do the same thing! > > Failure to respond to these collars also appears to be used as a > way of > deciding the animal's fate [by incompetent trainers]. > They see failure to respond as an indication that the animal was > 'bad in the > first place' and will not respond to other treatment. > This often forces the owner to seek euthanasia because they have > been > convinced that if such an extreme method of treatment has not > worked then > nothing else will. > As a vet I have had such cases brought to me. > > This is I suspect where the difficulties of talking about these > devices come > from; the equipment is possibly different, it is certainly being > used > differently and the kind of people having access to shock collars is > different because of the marketing strategy of the companies > selling them. > > Jon > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology Dept Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 From: IN%"EnjoyYourPet@aol.com" 8-JUN-2001 05:24:23.60 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"rondog@btinternet.com", IN%"margory@dnai.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Chris, You wrote: "1) Danny Mills' comments on using a whip to train a horse. This, of course, is a very common practice, but I am certain I would not be allowed to use a whip to train my laboratory mice to press an operant lever!" ROTFL!! Certainly not, but the visual image is comical . Amy Amelia D. Compton, Ph.D. Behavioral Psychologist & Canine Trainer Animal Behavior Solutions, Inc. 5515 Cottage St. Richmond, VA 23228 phone: 804 264-4540 From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 8-JUN-2001 05:29:55.01 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff --Boundary_(ID_EtSAS0YzC35aQCaE8Mf4GA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello Chris, As you liked the last attachment I am attaching the simplified version. As before I am making the file size as small as possible so as to avoid upsetting the membership with long downloads. As to the question, is this new information or fad, the answer is no. For example the model has a basis in Thorndike's Law of effect. Behaviours leading to discomfort are less likely to be repeated. Frustration as a consequence of the absence of a reinforcer and the frustration = fear hypothesis (e.g. Adelman & Maatsch) mean that punishment has to be divided into positive and negative just as reinforcement is. Of course, the +/- outcomes are interrelated diagonally across the model. Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Sherwin" To: "David Appleby" Cc: "Chris Sherwin" ; "Applied-ethology" Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:42 AM Subject: Re: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > > David, > > Many thanks for the attachment. >There is obviously still some > debate about what the terms 'punishment' and 'reinforcement' mean. > To be honest, I have not come across the term 'punishment' used in > this sense in my reading of animal psychology and animal behaviour. > Is it used widely, or is it a term gaining recent popularity - > perhaps amongst animal trainers? --Boundary_(ID_EtSAS0YzC35aQCaE8Mf4GA) Content-type: image/gif; name=Instrumental.gif Content-disposition: attachment; filename=Instrumental.gif Content-transfer-encoding: base64 R0lGODlh2QFXAbMAAAAAAISEhP////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////ywAAAAA2QFXAQAE/hDISau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oqq5s675wLM90bd94ru987//AoHBILBqP yKRyyWw6n9CodEqtWq/YrFYi6HYzAlF4Sy6bz8UxF6NGu9/weK+t9q6/XHx9DbDz+4BtcoOEhVh0 f2F6gHcTY4qOiX2ChpWWl0hefnt7FI+MgZGgkJilpqdznnl2nZqNr4ycqLO0tS6IoJKto7y8lLbA wcJsqr6Rj52wn7DDzc7BmnSLfF/JsXirpM/b3N3e3+Dh4uPk5ebn6OnNv+rt7obY7/LzcX4w0fEb 7Bf5T/vd+P55ECjwHjlXMQQEWMiw4IQAHcIsnKKwnEKGCx1ugAiGI46K/uKiJfQoSgVIiiTDnSz5 YqUNlwBF3kvZJ6U9XzcR3gyEbafPScgo/UQIVKMwmCAFfSKai6hCpor09Btqj2lMmbdorpQYoA7H Lw09hc3oiStErnvIOkKLVpXaPADCcmE4DulXkhXBvk0aV63ermv76kX0dlJfwHMnegtoNIRLiZE8 ProruTIgyY4UXz4Wt+TFxHPXYAYduqZFm51NZ65pWfXKs5qTKv7sOvWo2HcPNh4R0Lbq0LLFrt6a ezWFrniL/w5unHjpuvhsO3fuWmvy5yeZl6YO80Q/N99ZXMyoOZsX2M+Xo29+vUJA5dm/4lNe/TTG 8tPbZ6+qv7Xr+elp/mfSblaEt8JWFoyHUX3GmcZde2LdB19rCtL1G4N10STccP0d51eH2FF2X4D0 pWCgGSeaCGGA20GYF4gsIhgie8VcKKBKGjboIIzCPdiggF5t2J0JKZJRpHeouRcZhupJUmJavEz4 45I2lgjOkNi9KORXPcIYn2ep+SgegVUcSaRWCYLV4obLqZneKtK52WSAcnJn5lE5rlXNemtm05mY c8Lp339kglEoRYd+oCFNFkrgUUokRVqebw9N2qijx2XqIaQVPDrpN3lWOhFHnGIq6qOdPqSpqaKm uuql3iUaxZ301LqOrFDQauuutuhaIK68BgsPsE74KuyxlhhLhbLI/jYrB7NSQOvstGdImyux1GZ7 hbX+YKvtt9F6uwS34JZ7LSHkmqvuuOIqke668BrxLrvx1lvGvO62a+++O+CbhL/8BvySvpkQLPDB CRksr8IIN3wgw0QA7PDEJkI8hMQUZ0wCxmlYrPHHHHAcsccgl8wPyUCIbPLK7qH8g8osxwxzEDPH bHLNL7tMMc688jyHzhP7bKvQ/QLtMNH0IJ2D0gIz/Y7TA9vcktG1Ql2D1fZinY7WMnANr9fmgD21 1LdQnbTZS6PdtNpbM0a2Smy3Hd3b34gNN1Z0xyQz3nlvY/fdf/e9sM1WjbxTjR/EHW/gV9qNS4KC f6S4Oo7XuIlh/nD2EhSY2kTO+JXjFsPJUpxRo/kxk/ecuucyyfKH6a7HUnrkgdF+seiutHJ57MuE Yjtcv9MsupLKFL8LM7R/LvPwxgPf1OnIsx48zVBNc00v1MST+/TKT+99wt+Hf0n34pePAvnmp8/b 6uq3P6D78BvJfvz0OzZ//fiHfH/+/J/c//9MQB8A4SfAAbavgAZMHwITWL4FMjB8Dnyg9yIoweBR sIK2uyAGpbfBDl5tfx5UnwZD+LYRklBqJjzh3lTIwve18IUlSCEMPybDGWashjYMGghzmLwd8lBw OPzhwYIoxIARsYj7OiIS66XEJX7Nh04kHBSjyDLlNZGKb7Ai/pawaMQpdiFUXEyiF7cYRhDM64pi GCMYyzgQMtpvjeNTIxvP50Yz1jFZcpwjke7YRjjisWCMmZse+zgmP1YCbIF8j/0SycjDMfCLhTzK /ST0RQkZ0jyNDGQHIfmwSxZCi55kYyYdyYZRTnEGoBxkG0fpR1PyMYt5VCUHKFkhWGmAlpYMZbVi KUs76tJQv6wHL3tJyE5KslvBHCQnB5RMWELhU+XqDZHApIVlVqyZ4DllEil5AuVgUwjWpOM3dxlC pKgIRa/U3zjRWU7rlEUpOfFT714HlCVA0wT3PAUaq+ZO0SDmMnsRkZamVBjx7TNpqOHSaF7TJ76I 5qH0/N5B/ufRm0EN1D3FYc6XdCRRbWbNkmwiFB0ySlI9aWKdGpuoPLZIncMECUOQqIyEzKfSp4Wq pTSCKXJC6tGV9nRxYITSSBuKF0pBqYE//doa7SAZpm5nTyHVE6U6SkI4wmpBqnLUqFxlAVtSlZgk rClYn5bUsa5LrGalXFnTGs21svVbaH1r2NwqV2rFta7QwesD76rXxvU1gXz9q94EC8DAEvYZhj3s rRTbv8QyFhp0fezZJIs/x1KWFpa9LCoyq1lTcLazmPgsaP84WhFGtrTnEC1q0XXa1erGtUiFrUFb K1u/1naCtL3tYHX7O9Xylp2/zWBug7tY4nLQuH3zLXIP/jHc5faquc7FLHSju9npUtez1r1uaLOr XdJ2t2WuDK94x0ve8pr3vOhNr3rXy972ondo7o2vfOdL3/ra9774pe93Mbffm3G3v4NQLoAD+N8B w0HABv5XgROMBgQzeHAP3tmCIyw/CuvQwkebMIaZu2GEObjDPvgwiHkg4hHroMQmllyKxbjirGm4 xd2C8eJeLGMC1/isNL6xgnVsLhTzuGw/BpePg/wwImtryEamY5LtmuMlp6zJTg4xlKNM4ilT+cRW vrKKtRwsJHM5cVn+Mg28LGb9lRm+Z65amNM8Njb71M1vhrM7yCznstS5HXS+M3/1PFc+oyPPdwZ0 nQUt/mdCw9nQbkY0mxWdZkaf2dFlhrSYJf1lSnPZ0lrG9JU1TWVOR9nTTgb1kkWdZFIb2dRERnWQ Vf1jVvPY1TqG9Y1lXWNay9jWMMZ1i3W9Yl6n2NcmBvaIkSzs2c4Vpbde88bSGWplrw/ZdHNvRNq7 LGenEdolpLb+2Fvtar/3mnouoHqZGW5ra8CVh+SHQVhSPwe7Etv5ShC2GZq/D+MSpJ/855tMAu9s H1ufO+Xo4VgB3qAsQyngxe2/PXsWngrGLV3JjksTg56WtsWC5vYlwBOBmYVKR6Ecag6VIBPR5GYc zP32R0lJVKWsnmdO2sEpEE9ezFJIvE3R4BPO43JR1Y02Nee9pfm0U16sosZnptw5zI6mRHLWjEi4 58gnupKzUWrwqOeVwanQgbtJm8hoM6OIOdbdQjyw97Cd8k44XqAqz7PoYUVSJfoTq3oBRn2qIZLa qtIplSOvmjyMhFFhsQ/sVMFvnVdYNbyfU3v4xZ+78Y4vZeRfO/mQQL7ydsa8bTW/mMtzfvAbBj2G RW9h0lPY9BFG/YNVz2DWJ9j1Bob9gGUPYNr31/b7xf13dd9d3mvX99cFPnWFH13iO9f4nE++8pfP /OY7//nQj770p0/9F0QAAAA7 --Boundary_(ID_EtSAS0YzC35aQCaE8Mf4GA)-- From: IN%"jjvandenbrink@hotmail.com" "jacqueline vandenbrink" 8-JUN-2001 08:19:10.13 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: wind-sucking Hi Cecelie I have successful stopped the bahaviour in two of my own horses. The key to my success I feel is due to modifying their environment quite drastically within weeks of when the behaviour was initiated. Both these horses were less than a year old. I removed all desirable cribbing surfaces, and any those that could not be removed were painted with cayenne pepper. I also removed the likely causes of the behaviour. I sensed the bahaviour to be separation anxiety eventhough they were boxed next to other horses. I increased paddock time and moved them to stalls that allowed closer interaction with other horses. The one individual exhitbited the behaviour in the paddock in the winter. I providing free choice hay on the snow to encourage grazing behaviour and I painting all the posts with cayenne pepper as extra encouragement for him to divert his attention to more productive activieties (eating and socializing). The one horse has not shown any sign of the behaviour for 2 years. I still monitor the younger horse closely. I provide him a complex environment, lots of social interaction, and I minimize any stress. I also still paint the likely cribbing surfaces of his stall with cayenne pepper. He has not exhibited the bahaviour for the last 4 months, but I know I have to closely monitor him for at least a year to feel comfortable that I have been successful. As for your three year old your task maybe more complicated. It will depend on how long the horse has exhibited the behaviour. The cribbing collar should be a last resort, and even then it is ethically questionable (then again to some my spicy wood could also be questioned). It is essential that you modify the behaviour by isolating the cause of the bahaviour, and that you modifying his environment to eliminate the cause. I recall reading some good work on this topic when writing a paper for a course. I don’t have any references on hand because I’m not involved in this field any longer and have therefore not kept up on the literature. Maybe some others on this list can help. Good Luck. Jackie VandenBrink _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 8-JUN-2001 11:28:02.57 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Shrieking prey and predatory grip Robin, if shrieking is common in wild species of cats, it seems that it would function more as an escape mechanism than as an inducement for the predator to better hold or ravage its prey. from a natural selection perspective, the "genes" responsible for shrieking that encouraged a predator and further limited chance of escape and survival would likely soon be eliminated from the population. also, the "selective value" of not shrieking, not struggling, would seem to enhance the possibility of escape. i have seen mice and chipmunks escape domestic cats after having been dropped as seemingly inert hunks of flesh. paul New phone number beginning June 4th: 518 402-8977 >>> Robin Walker 06/08/01 03:24AM >>> There is something about the shriek of a cat that loosens the grip of those trying to restrain the animal for legitimate veterinary purposes. Such is the speed of this predator vs. prey transaction that bloody damage will ensue if the sinews of the grasping clinician are not stiffened by timely and sergeant major-like exhortations such as -"DON'T LET GO!". There is a type of confident (or implacable) grip that can terminate the escape stratagem or (better still) deter its onset. However, in the context of attack by natural predators with the full genetic repertoire of kills (this I think embraces nearly all cats and a cohort of rather special dogs) the prey shriek may serve as encouragement, feedback or even an instigating trigger. The shrieking 'tells' the predator that its grip is wrong. Silence 'tells' the predator that its prey is dead. I mention this because some of the most dreadful incidents involving dogs and dead humans bear analysis of these events. Shrieking girls, sneezing owners and sharp expostulations in conversation have been associated with attacks. I have lately reviewed some of my records and reappraised some of my views about dog a human fatalities and realised that some of the more appalling attacks may have been protracted by the time it has taken for the dog to finally tear out the shrieking larynx. I believe people wandering in Grizzly Bear country are advised to keep very still and quiet it they are about to eaten! Certainly British subalterns (junior officers) of the 19 hundreds were admonished, in the event of being shot, to 'toll quietly to the rear so as not to upset the soldiery by unseemly screaming. Hope springs eternal. Robin Walker. Veterinarian once more in the breach. From: IN%"Kirstyryl@aol.com" 8-JUN-2001 13:50:53.24 To: IN%"margory@dnai.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Has any one got papers on the 'happiness' of dogs post use of electric shock collars. I know studies have been done on humans post electric shock therapy and the word happiness is never used!!! Kirsty Ryley Animal Behaviour Therapist From: IN%"paulm@vetsci.usyd.edu.au" "Paul McGreevy" 8-JUN-2001 19:30:41.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Dear All Last week Carol mentioned the Queensland Code of Practice for circus animals. For those of you who might like to take a closer look at the origins of this initiative, it would be worth visiting: http://www.affa.gov.au/docs/animalplanthealth/animal_welfare/nccaw/psn026.html At this site Australia's National Consultative Committee on Animal Welfare (NCCAW) has published its recommended national standard for the management and control of circuses in Australia. The resource includes recommendations on housing, husbandry, behavioural training, suitability of animal species, responsibilities of proprietor /manager, interaction and safety. All Australian States and Territories are being encouraged to adopt the contents of this document when developing standards for circuses which exhibit animals. In this way, it is hoped that Australia will eventually have nationalised standards for the care and housing of all circus animals. The site is a rich resource that generally offers clear and sensible advice. Unfortunately, however, the definitions page within the resource offers the following: Negative reinforcement: Punishment for failure to perform correctly, eg. the banishment from the trainer or other animals of an individual of a social species, after failure to perform the behaviour requested by the trainer. The use of the term punishment and the rather bland example seem unhelpful. It appears that confusion about these labels will prevail for a while longer. Getting this definition right is important because, in the behavioral training section of the site, it is stated that negative reinforcement must never be used. Ultimately what matters to the animal is the degree to which a stimulus is pleasant or unpleasant. Perhaps, in a bid to clarify the rather muddied waters, we should focus on the effects (both physiological and behavioural) of various training stimuli on the animals rather than the labels we apply to them. Paul Dr Paul McGreevy, BVSc, PhD, MRCVS Senior Lecturer in Animal Behaviour Faculty of Veterinary Science Room 206, Gunn Building (B19) Regimental Crescent University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia Phone: 61 2 9351 2810 Fax: 61 2 9351 3957 email: paulm@vetsci.usyd.edu.au http://www.library.usyd.edu.au/VEIN/links/animalwelfare.html http://www.library.usyd.edu.au/VEIN/links/behaviour.html Dr Paul McGreevy, BVSc, PhD, MRCVS Senior Lecturer Faculty of Veterinary Science Room 206, Gunn Building (B19) Regimental Crescent University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia Phone: 61 2 9351 2810 Fax: 61 2 9351 3957 email: paulm@vetsci.usyd.edu.au web page: http://www.usyd.edu.au/vetfac/faculty/staff/pmcgr.html From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 9-JUN-2001 06:55:56.31 To: IN%"paulm@vetsci.usyd.edu.au" "Paul McGreevy", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Dear all, Hurrah! John Kenneth Galbraith in Money:Whence It Came, Where It Went says something that resonates (for me) in this discussion. "Much discussion of money involves a heavy overlay of priestly incantation. Some of this is deliberate. Those that talk of money and teach about it and make their living by it gain prestige, esteem and pecuniary return, as does a doctor or a witch doctor, from cultivating the belief that they are in a privileged association with the occult - that they have insights that are nowise available to the ordinary person. Though professionally rewarding and personally profitable, this too is a well-established form of fraud. There is nothing about money that cannot be understood by the person of reasonable curiosity, diligence and intelligence." I just love Galbraith and I am reminded of him when I read work by Ray Coppinger who is another example of the very best of American academia. If we replace the word "money" with "behaviour" we have something that might be said of much that is written or spoken about among dog trainers and the exponents of "pet psychology". I do think that teachers of psychology revel in the teasing paradoxes and conundra of definition that JKG unmasks. It is all contrived. Robin -----Original Message----- From: Paul McGreevy [mailto:paulm@vetsci.usyd.edu.au] Sent: 09 June 2001 02:30 To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Dear All Last week Carol mentioned the Queensland Code of Practice for circus animals. For those of you who might like to take a closer look at the origins of this initiative, it would be worth visiting: http://www.affa.gov.au/docs/animalplanthealth/animal_welfare/nccaw/psn026.ht ml At this site Australia's National Consultative Committee on Animal Welfare (NCCAW) has published its recommended national standard for the management and control of circuses in Australia. The resource includes recommendations on housing, husbandry, behavioural training, suitability of animal species, responsibilities of proprietor /manager, interaction and safety. All Australian States and Territories are being encouraged to adopt the contents of this document when developing standards for circuses which exhibit animals. In this way, it is hoped that Australia will eventually have nationalised standards for the care and housing of all circus animals. The site is a rich resource that generally offers clear and sensible advice. Unfortunately, however, the definitions page within the resource offers the following: Negative reinforcement: Punishment for failure to perform correctly, eg. the banishment from the trainer or other animals of an individual of a social species, after failure to perform the behaviour requested by the trainer. The use of the term punishment and the rather bland example seem unhelpful. It appears that confusion about these labels will prevail for a while longer. Getting this definition right is important because, in the behavioral training section of the site, it is stated that negative reinforcement must never be used. Ultimately what matters to the animal is the degree to which a stimulus is pleasant or unpleasant. Perhaps, in a bid to clarify the rather muddied waters, we should focus on the effects (both physiological and behavioural) of various training stimuli on the animals rather than the labels we apply to them. Paul Dr Paul McGreevy, BVSc, PhD, MRCVS Senior Lecturer in Animal Behaviour Faculty of Veterinary Science Room 206, Gunn Building (B19) Regimental Crescent University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia Phone: 61 2 9351 2810 Fax: 61 2 9351 3957 email: paulm@vetsci.usyd.edu.au http://www.library.usyd.edu.au/VEIN/links/animalwelfare.html http://www.library.usyd.edu.au/VEIN/links/behaviour.html Dr Paul McGreevy, BVSc, PhD, MRCVS Senior Lecturer Faculty of Veterinary Science Room 206, Gunn Building (B19) Regimental Crescent University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia Phone: 61 2 9351 2810 Fax: 61 2 9351 3957 email: paulm@vetsci.usyd.edu.au web page: http://www.usyd.edu.au/vetfac/faculty/staff/pmcgr.html From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 9-JUN-2001 09:04:08.04 To: IN%"Kirstyryl@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Hi Kirsty, I am not quite sure what you want to know. I don't know how it would be possible to measure 'happiness'. Jon From: IN%"jraustin@telusplanet.net" "Jackie Wepruk & Rick Austin" 9-JUN-2001 09:53:10.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Hello All, I train my Siberians for obedience competition and have been around a lot of different trainers, with a lot of different ideas on how to train dogs. There still are a number of trainers who are absolutely opposed to using food to train dogs, relying upon praise as their reinforcer and physical punishment to teach behaviours. Clicker training is still scoffed at in many circles. One method of teaching a retrieve in competitive obedience, called the "forced retrieve", involves an ear pinch. Essentially the dog's ear is pinched, causing him to yelp, at which point the dumbbell is placed in his mouth and immediately the pinching is ceased. The dog associates having the dumbbell in his mouth with the cessation of the ear pinch (there is a lot of previous conditioning to the dumbbell prior to this stage to get the dog comfortable with it in his mouth). Eventually the dog learns that upon the command "take it" he must retrieve the dumbbell or face an ear pinch (this is a simplified version of the method). This is a common training method in competition obedience (both in U.S. & Canada) and as far as I am aware, would not be considered illegal in Canada. Unfortunately this is mild compared to what some dog trainers advocate for dealing with aggressive behaviour. Dogs are still being "hung" by their chokers, alpha rolled, etc. by old school trainers, unwilling to learn new and better tools for handling aggression. But I still don't thing you could charge them with abuse, as they are using training methods that have long been used and generally accepted (not so much any more, though). Also, there are no existing standards for what are acceptable training methods. Jackie Wepruk > > > Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:22:38 +0100 > > From: Chris Sherwin > > Subject: Re: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > > To: Applied ethology > > Cc: Chris Sherwin > > Priority: NORMAL > > > > > Dear All, > > > > In recent postings, there has been discussion of using whips, > > electric shocks, long-term tethering and repeated exposure to highly > > aversive stimuli to train animals. It has ocurred to me > > that as a scientist, it would be illegal (prosecutable by a prison > > sentence) for me to use these methods on laboratory or farm animals > > in my research. At the very least, I would have to gain a Home > > Office (UK) licence and this would be HIGHLY restricted and closely > > monitored. What legislation is there to regulate the use of > > potentially aversive stimuli on companion animals? > > Please note this message is NOT intended to suggest that > > any members subscribing to this list are being cruel or behaving > > inappropraitely - I am simply intrigued to understand differences > > in legislation regarding animal welfare. > > > > Chris > > ............................................................. > > Dr C.M. Sherwin > > UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > > Centre for Behavioural Biology > > Dept Clinical Veterinary Science > > University of Bristol > > BS40 5DU > > > > Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 > > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Institut fuer Tierhygiene, Tierschutz & Nutztierethologie > Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover > (Institute of Animal Hygiene, Welfare and Farm Animal Ethologie) > (School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover) > Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese > > Buenteweg 17p > 30559 Hannover > > Tel.: (0511) 953-8837 > (0511) 120 2102 > Fax.: (0511) 953-8588 > (0511) 120 99 2102 > e-mail: Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de > alternativ (grosse Attachments): Andreas_Briese@animcare-sci.de > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: IN%"jraustin@telusplanet.net" "Jackie Wepruk & Rick Austin" 9-JUN-2001 09:53:13.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction Hello All, As I just posted comments to the list for the first time, I should introduce myself. I have my undergrad in psych, my Masters in environmental design and am keening interested in ethics, animal behaviour (human and non-human) and animal welfare. I write a newsletter, called Farm Animal Welfare News, which is a collaborative effort between animal welfare interests and animal industry to report on issues and initiatives in farm animal welfare. The newsletter is quite new. Our first issue is viewable at www.afac.ab.ca and our second issue is hitting the presses soon. I've done some work in the area of animal care standards for wildlife used in research. This was done for Parks Canada, who at the time were interested in what approach to take in developing a program. I also teach pet obedience classes and compete with my Siberian Huskies in obedience trials (an oxymoron for many who have known a Siberian). In training I do use a clicker and a verbal secondary reinforcer to communicate with my dogs. My husband and I are also avid dog mushing enthusiasts, so I am also interested in a lot of the welfare issues (real and exaggerated) relating to sleddog care and training. Thanks for listening, Jackie Wepruk From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 9-JUN-2001 10:10:30.51 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen", IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Admirably and elegantly put Jon! But I have a concern with this apparent 'waving though' of an 'acceptable' form of electric shock. There was a vigorous debate among the members of AE sometime in '97 or '98 on the topic of electroshock training for gun dogs. The quote of the year for me was Jon Watts remark on the proposition that e-shock was indispensable for training gun dogs to the satisfaction of some competitors. "Go and get your own bloody duck!" is how I remember his contribution. The debate was interesting as it revealed the determination of some trainers to get dogs to retrieve whilst out of sight of the handler, in novel and difficult terrain. I have erased the long and detailed posts I had but I recall an implacable determination to get an unnaturally high degree of performance by punctuating the dog's efforts with what the author called "nicking" or serial short sharp shocks. Similarly obedience fanatics can induce a much more automaton like (Prussian military drill) precision in the trained evolutions of the subject (I prefer the term victim). There can be no doubt that these merciless exploiters get their prize wining results to a degree unattainable by reward based training. To my mind the results do NOT justify the means. I would ask these people to wear the shock leads and take up formation tap-dancing themselves! The issues are moral ones. These matters are not measured by skin burns or post traumatic disturbances. The issue is the restraint of obsessive and compulsive competition for trophies. Robin -----Original Message----- From: Jon Bowen [mailto:rondog@btinternet.com] Sent: 08 June 2001 10:54 To: margory cohen; Applied ethology Subject: Re: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff > > In recent postings, there has been discussion of using whips, > > electric shocks, long-term tethering and repeated exposure to highly > > aversive stimuli to train animals. It has ocurred to me > > that as a scientist, it would be illegal (prosecutable by a prison > > sentence) for me to use these methods on laboratory or farm animals > > in my research. Hi Margory, I saw the references to shocks, but none to whips or long term tethering, so perhaps some emails are not getting through to everybody. For example, I did not get the message from Chris Sherwin that you quote in your reply! The point I think Chris is, rightly, making is that he would not be able to get a home office license to do research that involved the methods that are routinely being talked about as part of training. >I reckon my concern is that if we're not careful, then precautions to >protect dogs from aggressive dogs (and owners) -- well, the messenger will get kicked in the face instead of the aggressor. I understand what you are saying, but a dog that displays aggression due to fearfulness [perhaps through poor socialisation or a number of aversive experiences and associations, made worse by illness or pain] should be considered as a patient and not some a pathologically violent criminal in need of reform through punishment. On shock collars... Amy sent me some information about the kind of electrical collars she is using and it sounds like some of the equipment you have available in the States differs substantially from what we have in the UK, so comparisons of the use of such collars will be difficult. The way she is using them is also completely different from what I see over here, possibly because in the UK the market for shock collars is largely composed of members of the general public and inexperienced trainers who want a 'quick fix' to solve a problem. The collars in the UK are designed to deliver the kind of shock that is usually associated with a powerful cattle fence, and often go much stronger than that. There have been a number of injuries associated with their use. This is probably because the collars are sold [in the UK] not only on the basis of training but also the sense of power and authority that the user feels by having the device. Inexperienced people who witness extreme behaviour often assume that it demands extreme treatment. The irony is that incompetent seek to use a powerful shock or other physical punishment because they lack the patience, training and skill to use less potent punishments or positive reinforcement methods. Also, for a number of the people that use them in the UK there seems to be a macho culture surrounding shock collars. I have seen them misused as a form of retribution for misbehaviour after the event [delayed punishment] and by owners who simply seek to exert power over their animals through pain and fear. My old boss [a vet!!!!] had a shock collar; when his dog ran away from him he would repeatedly press the button while the dog was in undergrowth nowhere to be seen. He even activated it when the dog was running back to him, again out of pure vengeance. We would all think this as moronic, but there was no set of instructions that explained how to use the collar. The kind of person who yells at their dog and hits it when it is slow to come back might well do the same thing! Failure to respond to these collars also appears to be used as a way of deciding the animal's fate [by incompetent trainers]. They see failure to respond as an indication that the animal was 'bad in the first place' and will not respond to other treatment. This often forces the owner to seek euthanasia because they have been convinced that if such an extreme method of treatment has not worked then nothing else will. As a vet I have had such cases brought to me. This is I suspect where the difficulties of talking about these devices come from; the equipment is possibly different, it is certainly being used differently and the kind of people having access to shock collars is different because of the marketing strategy of the companies selling them. Jon From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 9-JUN-2001 15:10:17.97 To: IN%"jraustin@telusplanet.net" "Jackie Wepruk & Rick Austin", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction Welcome most warmly! You are needed in this debate as you may have already realised. Please do not quit! Robin Walker -----Original Message----- From: Jackie Wepruk & Rick Austin [mailto:jraustin@telusplanet.net] Sent: 09 June 2001 16:54 To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Introduction Hello All, As I just posted comments to the list for the first time, I should introduce myself. I have my undergrad in psych, my Masters in environmental design and am keening interested in ethics, animal behaviour (human and non-human) and animal welfare. I write a newsletter, called Farm Animal Welfare News, which is a collaborative effort between animal welfare interests and animal industry to report on issues and initiatives in farm animal welfare. The newsletter is quite new. Our first issue is viewable at www.afac.ab.ca and our second issue is hitting the presses soon. I've done some work in the area of animal care standards for wildlife used in research. This was done for Parks Canada, who at the time were interested in what approach to take in developing a program. I also teach pet obedience classes and compete with my Siberian Huskies in obedience trials (an oxymoron for many who have known a Siberian). In training I do use a clicker and a verbal secondary reinforcer to communicate with my dogs. My husband and I are also avid dog mushing enthusiasts, so I am also interested in a lot of the welfare issues (real and exaggerated) relating to sleddog care and training. Thanks for listening, Jackie Wepruk From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 9-JUN-2001 16:52:45.38 To: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Shrieking prey and predatory grip I think we have to be rather selective and methodical in the analysis of the behaviours we are describing. The cat killing rodents way may be intent on killing and then caching rather than eating immediately. The canine predator may be concerned with killing a rather large prey and not necessarily eating it at all. I suppose we do not tend to leave dogs with dead humans long enough to get the data! The anecdotal records exist -go search! -----Original Message----- From: Paul Carella [mailto:pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us] Sent: 08 June 2001 18:26 To: robin@coape.win-uk.net; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: Shrieking prey and predatory grip Robin, if shrieking is common in wild species of cats, it seems that it would function more as an escape mechanism than as an inducement for the predator to better hold or ravage its prey. from a natural selection perspective, the "genes" responsible for shrieking that encouraged a predator and further limited chance of escape and survival would likely soon be eliminated from the population. also, the "selective value" of not shrieking, not struggling, would seem to enhance the possibility of escape. i have seen mice and chipmunks escape domestic cats after having been dropped as seemingly inert hunks of flesh. paul New phone number beginning June 4th: 518 402-8977 >>> Robin Walker 06/08/01 03:24AM >>> There is something about the shriek of a cat that loosens the grip of those trying to restrain the animal for legitimate veterinary purposes. Such is the speed of this predator vs. prey transaction that bloody damage will ensue if the sinews of the grasping clinician are not stiffened by timely and sergeant major-like exhortations such as -"DON'T LET GO!". There is a type of confident (or implacable) grip that can terminate the escape stratagem or (better still) deter its onset. However, in the context of attack by natural predators with the full genetic repertoire of kills (this I think embraces nearly all cats and a cohort of rather special dogs) the prey shriek may serve as encouragement, feedback or even an instigating trigger. The shrieking 'tells' the predator that its grip is wrong. Silence 'tells' the predator that its prey is dead. I mention this because some of the most dreadful incidents involving dogs and dead humans bear analysis of these events. Shrieking girls, sneezing owners and sharp expostulations in conversation have been associated with attacks. I have lately reviewed some of my records and reappraised some of my views about dog a human fatalities and realised that some of the more appalling attacks may have been protracted by the time it has taken for the dog to finally tear out the shrieking larynx. I believe people wandering in Grizzly Bear country are advised to keep very still and quiet it they are about to eaten! Certainly British subalterns (junior officers) of the 19 hundreds were admonished, in the event of being shot, to 'toll quietly to the rear so as not to upset the soldiery by unseemly screaming. Hope springs eternal. Robin Walker. Veterinarian once more in the breach. From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" 9-JUN-2001 19:06:27.66 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Shrieking prey and predatory grip Dear Robin, et. al. Back in 1971 I was witness to an attack by two (not normally) nasty dogs upon a 7 year old child who started screaming when the dogs ran toward her, tails wagging and seemingly in a non-hunting mood. The child was not injured, thanks to the both of the dogs' owners' quick actions. The scene awakened my poetic talents, which some famed critics have failed to recognize, except to advise me to continue making a living assisting pet owners with behavior problems. In spite of this, the following ditty will be included in a forthcoming collection of Mortal Dog Poetry by guess-who. DON'T SCREAM! Sad, but true, this awful fact, but sounds of screaming shrill; Awaken basic canine drives that tell the dog to kill. Bill Campbell - enjoying all the real talent on the list. From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 10-JUN-2001 02:02:16.25 To: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Shrieking prey and predatory grip What could be more apt than "doggerel"? Good anecdotal retrieve. Gooood Bill ! :) -----Original Message----- From: Bill Campbell [mailto:billcamp@cdsnet.net] Sent: 10 June 2001 02:04 To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Shrieking prey and predatory grip Dear Robin, et. al. Back in 1971 I was witness to an attack by two (not normally) nasty dogs upon a 7 year old child who started screaming when the dogs ran toward her, tails wagging and seemingly in a non-hunting mood. The child was not injured, thanks to the both of the dogs' owners' quick actions. The scene awakened my poetic talents, which some famed critics have failed to recognize, except to advise me to continue making a living assisting pet owners with behavior problems. In spite of this, the following ditty will be included in a forthcoming collection of Mortal Dog Poetry by guess-who. DON'T SCREAM! Sad, but true, this awful fact, but sounds of screaming shrill; Awaken basic canine drives that tell the dog to kill. Bill Campbell - enjoying all the real talent on the list. From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 10-JUN-2001 05:47:16.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network" CC: Subj: Genetically modified horses I listened recently to a radio report on the current work on genetic modification of horses for equestrian sporting purposes. I was frankly stunned and then horrified. I would appreciate more information from those up to speed with this question. The goal of this work seems to be the "engineer" successful horses for "eventing". To be brutally brief I was asked (in effect) to applaud the destruction of a large number of mares for the harvesting of genetic material. The prize is to go to the noble end of allowing a lady competitor (yes - one of those insatiable trophy seekers!) to succeed in competition. May her jodhpurs swell with pride! For my part I am sickened by the logistics of the animal consumption and deeply disappointed by the philosophical poverty of the aim. I might have been encouraged to consider research into the stamina and utility of working horses, ponies for difficult terrain or climate, hardiness, disease resistance etc. Today I see a report from the Royal Society summarised in the Veterinary Record. The full text is on the Royal Society's website at www.royalsoc.ac.uk/files/stafiles/document-139.pdf I shall struggle to control my blood pressure and limit myself to a historical note on the Elizabethan (the first Liz not the current one!) view on genetic modification. It is enshrined in Shakespeare of course. This matter has been controversial for some time! Turn to your copy of The Winter's Tale Act VI Scene III line 80 et seq. Perdita .....the fairest flowers o'the season Are our carnations, and streak'd gillyvors, Which some call nature's bastards: of that kind Our rustic garden's barren, and I care not To get slips of them. Polixenes (King of Bohemia) Do you neglect them? Per. There is an art which in their piedness, shares With great creating nature. Pol. Say there be; Yet nature is made better by no mean, But nature makes that mean: so, o'er that art, Which, you say, adds to nature, is an art That nature makes. You see, sweet maid, we marry A gentler scion to the wildest stock, And make conceive a barkof baser kind By bud of noble race: this is an art Which does mend nature, - change it rather; but The are itself is nature. It was interesting to see this defence of genetic manipulation reiterated in its modern form by the radio defenders of breeding for any purpose ....the great so what's the difference ploy. What I would like to hear on this list is your thoughts. Robin From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 10-JUN-2001 10:17:31.61 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: Integration of Welfare and Health I have put some controversial ideas and suggestions about an integrated (holistic) approach to animal health and welfare on-line at: http://www.pighealth.com/holistic2.htm I would appreciate greatly any comments and discussion from members of the ethology list! Michael Meredith From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 10-JUN-2001 12:48:52.86 To: IN%"jraustin@telusplanet.net" "Jackie Wepruk & Rick Austin", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Hi Jackie, I am not sure what the history of dog training has to do with abuse. Something is either abusive or not, and it makes no difference how long that practice has been in use. All it means is that a particular form of abuse has been used for a long time. Hanging, unnecessary alpha rolling of dogs [especially 6-10 month old male ones] and the deliberate use of pain are all things that I am sure any of the people whose profession is to treat behaviour problems will recognise as common factors in the development of problem behaviour. Since every one of the behaviours that you describe could be trained by a less painful and aversive method I think that abuse is a reasonable term to use. Jon From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 10-JUN-2001 12:48:56.59 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker", IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Hi Robin, I do not approve of the use of shock collars of any kind and am aware that there is a risk of muddying the issue of a ban in the UK. However, I am also concerned that a fight does not break out between on the list, purely on the grounds that there are definitely some differences in the way that things are done! Perhaps Amy should describe the way that she uses her collars so that we can discuss it. All the best, Jon From: IN%"deethom@erols.com" "Dee" 10-JUN-2001 13:01:55.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms> training methods At 09:39 AM 6/9/01 -0600, you wrote: >snipped... Clicker training is still scoffed at in >many circles....snipped This is the best method I have ever used with abused birds! I have a macaw that was fed drugs, alcohol and hit so hard she was knocked into the wall. The vet just shrugged and said 'do what you can'...even the word 'no' in a mild tone sent her into a frenzy of fear, biting screaming and flopping on her back. Wish I'd heard about this method years ago! dee parrot rescue maryland From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 10-JUN-2001 19:13:54.45 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: applied-ethology - from the U.S. --= AVMA Task force on aggression RE: UPDATE: IMPORTANT READING 6/7/01 -- updated linkhello- catching up with posts as to sounds and reaction and have more to add to that but meantime, this is making rounds here and thought to pass along which i do, without comment. fyi. margory cohen (by chance, some trainers i correspond with are also discussing use of for instance air horns in situations where dogs are aggressive or potentially aggressive. between those discussions and these, i have to find my thoughts to respond.) http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbite.htm This was prepared > by the AVMA's Task force on Canine Aggression and Humane-Canine > Interaction. It is available in pdf format online at > There is a link to this > from the accompanying press release at the National Center for Injury > Prevention & Control at http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbite.htm From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 11-JUN-2001 03:16:05.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Chris et al > In recent postings, there has been discussion of using whips, > electric shocks, long-term tethering and repeated exposure to highly > aversive stimuli to train animals. It has ocurred to me > that as a scientist, it would be illegal (prosecutable by a prison > sentence) for me to use these methods on laboratory or farm animals > in my research. At the very least, I would have to gain a Home > Office (UK) licence and this would be HIGHLY restricted and closely > monitored. What legislation is there to regulate the use of > potentially aversive stimuli on companion animals? An important point here is that the restrictions you talk about are on research, rather than on a specific group of animals. There are many practices that are routine on farms or wherever, which would be forbidden or closely controlled by licensing if intended for research purposes. For example farmers tail-dock thousands of piglets, but if you want to do a study of tail-docking (even if, say, it involves only 3 piglets and is intended to develop a welfare-friendly method of docking) you need a licence for it. In fact, if you want to study something else on those same 3 piglets, you can tail-dock them as a normal farm routine with no control. Of course this doesn't suggest that there should be less controls on research: rather, as implied in the discussion so far, that practices such as tail-docking, electric-shock training or use of whips that are routine in other spheres should be carefully examined. Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Humane Society of the US c/o Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh West Mains Road Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"h.toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" "Helen toner" 11-JUN-2001 04:11:22.99 To: IN%"cmejdell@online.no" "Cecilie Marie Mejdell" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: wind-sucking Dear Cecilie, I used to work with horses and am now doing a phD in equine welfare... I don't claim to be an expert but I have been doing alot of reading for my PhD, and alongside my practical experience I think I can give you a few suggestions that may help! It has been suggested that stereotypical behaviours such as windsucking occur as coping mechanisms in response to the stress of the environment in which horses are kept. I find it particularly interesting that you say the windsucking 'exploded' upon the mares return to a semi stabled routine following 2 weeks at grass. It is possible that the mare finds the stabled environment highly stressful, particularly after enjoying complete freedom for afew weeks. I know you say that she is out for 10 hours a day, but all horses are different in their tolerance of stress and it is possibe that this mare simply cannot cope with 14 hours stabled. Another pont I would draw your attention to is the fact that she is recieving some concentrated feed also, but only recieves training twice a week. I understand it is important to ensure the horse has a balanced diet, but good quality hay and the grazing she gets when she is out (assuming it is good quality grazing) should be sufficient when she is doing so little work. Horses naturally spend a very large proportion of their day eating, and often when we stable them we prevent them from doing so. You do not state how the hay is fed. I would reccommend that you use a net with very small holes so that it takes the mare longer to eat her hay ration. It is also possible to get 'toys' to entertain the mare while she is in the stable, perhaps you should investigate these? Another question I would ask is whether or not she can see other horses from her stable, or can she even make physical contact? Do not forget that horses are social animals and it is very important that they are not isolated. If it were possible I would suggest that she spent more time at pasture, if not all her time. If not, then follow the suggestions above. Does her owner spend much time with her, or is it only when she is training her twice a week? Perhaps she should consider working with her for a short period every day? Please do let me know how you get on! Helen Toner. School of Psychology Queens University Belfast On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 12:07:19 +0200 Cecilie Marie Mejdell wrote: > Hello > Does anyone "out there" have any suggestions on how to try to stop > wind-sucking? The problem horse is a 3 year old mare, a norwegian fjord > pony. > There is nothing special about the environment, it seems OK. The horse is > kept together with other horses, in single boxes, fed 8 kg hay a day + some > concentrates and minerals/vitamins, is let out in a paddock 10 hours a day > with company, and is trained twice a week. It is possible that the > wind-sucking has been going on for some while, without the owner being > aware of it (there is hardly a sign of wood-chewing in the stable and the > owner bought the horse 3 months ago.) But now, after the horses returned > home for a period after two weeks on pasture day and night, the > wind-sucking has exploded, and is exhibited both out in the paddock and in > the stable. > I guess that a neck-collar works by physically preventing the contraction > of the muscles involved. Is it possible to break the behaviour, to change > the motivation? > > Regards > > Cecilie Mejdell > > > > > Cecilie Mejdell, DVM > National Center for Veterinary Research and Commercial Services ltd (VESO) > N-2500 Tynset > Norway ---------------------- Helen toner From: IN%"h.toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" "Helen toner" 11-JUN-2001 04:37:02.87 To: IN%"h.toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" "Helen toner" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"cmejdell@online.no" "Cecilie Marie Mejdell" Subj: RE: wind-sucking and a quick request to all! Cecilie, I am sorry if much of what I said reiterated Jacquelines comments, I have only just read her mail! It has taken me the guts of the last hour to get through my inbox! To everyone: As for my request.... I don't know if any of you remember me, I am doing my research into bit use in horses and the behavioural and welfare implications. Hilary Clayton was very helpful in sending me information and papers but I now appear to have mislaid her email address. This is a request directed to Hilary and also to anyone else who has an interest in this area: Hilary sent me some very interesting papers on Fluoroscopic studies of bits (1984, 85). Does anyone know of any more recent papers on the effect of bits? (preferably in English!). I have also been following with interest all the publicity in the British equestrian press about Myler Bits..... I would love to hear any comments on these! Finally, can anyone enlighten me as to why the sole aim of dressage riders is to increase salivation.... supposedly creating a soft mouth and a flexible poll. (Yes, I do some dressage myself). Why is excessive salivation widely accepted as being a good sign, when vets would recognise it as indicative of a mouth problem if the animal was not being ridden? Comments are welcome from everyone, horsey or not.... I am interested in the welfare implications. Thankyou! Helen. ---------------------- Helen Toner From: IN%"msuthers@vt.edu" "H. Marie Suthers-McCabe, DVM" 11-JUN-2001 08:15:13.85 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: new ethology professor Hello Ethology group, I am an Associate Professor of Human-Companion Animal Interaction at the Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine. I just "inherited" a one hour Ethology course as lead instructor due to retirement of the previous instructor. I am re-structuring the course and am looking for advise from those with experience. I am not a behavioralist am will be relying heavily on guest speakers from the College and surrounding area. I plan to add a lecture on Biophilia and two lectures on the veterinarian's role in Animal Assisted Therapy. The course is taught in the first year, first semester - starting this August. Thus far I am planning 15 lecture hours as follows: 1. Introduction and Biophilia 2. The Veterinarian's role in Animal Assisted Therapy 3. Appropriate Behavior for animal participants in Animal Assisted Therapy 4-6. Pet Loss 7. Avian behavior 8. Normal dog 9. Problem dog 10. Small Ruminant 11.Normal cat 12. Problem cat 13. Cattle 14. Normal horse 15. Problem horse I would like to assign a journaling project involving observing animal behavior - ideas on how to implement and grade? I will have 90 students. I would also like to assign a small paper - perhaps a poster - designed as a client education piece. Should I allow students to self select topics? Could I have them displayed as a poster session at a conference and have the students peer review? Is there a way I can use the Applied Ethology web page as part of the course? Perhaps even this discussion group? Or would 90 students overload it? I appreciate any input, thank you, Dr. Suthers-McCabe H. Marie Suthers-McCabe, DVM Associate Professor Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences Extension Specialist Human-Companion Animal Interaction Director Center for Animal-Human Relationships Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine Virginia Tech Phone: 540-231-7133 FAX: 540-231-1698 e-mail: msuthers@vt.edu Address: Dr.Suthers-McCabe VMRCVM-DSACS Mail Code 0442 Duck Pond Drive Blacksburg, Virginia 24061 From: IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com" "Amy Coffman" 11-JUN-2001 11:55:01.52 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: wind-sucking and a quick request to all! Hi Helen, Are you familiar with Dr. Robert Cook's research? He has spent many years studying the health implications of using bits on horses. There are some articles at http://electro7.securesites.com/bitlessbridle/about/articles.phtml As to your question on salivation, I would ask Dr. Jessica Jahiel, who is extremely knowledgeable about both dressage and bitting, and is very accessible. Her website is http://www.prairienet.org/jjahiel/. Best wishes, Amy Coffman Painted Moon Ranch Colbert, Oklahoma USA From: IN%"cmejdell@online.no" "Cecilie Marie Mejdell" 12-JUN-2001 03:06:45.00 To: IN%"h.toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" "Helen toner" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: SV: wind-sucking Dear Helen, some more information to explain this case follow below. (We have now sent her to a large medow to grass day and night, together with other horses, to see what happens.) Cecilie ---------- > Fra: Helen toner > Til: Cecilie Marie Mejdell > Kopi: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Emne: Re: wind-sucking > Dato: 11. juni 2001 05:10 > > Dear Cecilie, > I used to work with horses and am now doing a phD in equine welfare... > I don't claim to be an expert but I have been doing alot of reading for > my PhD, and alongside my practical experience I think I can give you a > few suggestions that may help! > It has been suggested that stereotypical behaviours such as windsucking > occur as coping mechanisms in response to the stress of the environment > in which horses are kept. I find it particularly interesting that you > say the windsucking 'exploded' upon the mares return to a semi stabled > routine following 2 weeks at grass. It is possible that the mare finds > the stabled environment highly stressful, particularly after enjoying > complete freedom for afew weeks. I know you say that she is out for 10 > hours a day, but all horses are different in their tolerance of stress > and it is possibe that this mare simply cannot cope with 14 hours > stabled. Before the two weeks on pasture, the routines were the same: In single box at night, but in a stable together with other horses and with a neighbour she can touch. Out in a paddock at daytime, 9 -14 hours depending on season and wether conditions. She doesn't look stressed, she is a cool type, the boss of the group, and when this "exploded" she wind-sucked even during grooming, which she usually enjoys. Another pont I would draw your attention to is the fact > that she is recieving some concentrated feed also, but only recieves > training twice a week. I understand it is important to ensure the horse > has a balanced diet, but good quality hay and the grazing she gets when > she is out (assuming it is good quality grazing) should be sufficient > when she is doing so little work. She gets concentrates mainly because the other horses are fed concentrates, and it is no more than max 1/2 kg a day. The hay is fed on floor in the box and out in the paddock, together 4 times, + some straw and cut down branches outdoors now and then. But you are wright, I guess she should be worked more often. Horses naturally spend a very large > proportion of their day eating, and often when we stable them we > prevent them from doing so. You do not state how the hay is fed. I > would reccommend that you use a net with very small holes so that it > takes the mare longer to eat her hay ration. It is also possible to get > 'toys' to entertain the mare while she is in the stable, perhaps you > should investigate these? Another question I would ask is whether or > not she can see other horses from her stable, or can she even make > physical contact? Do not forget that horses are social animals and it > is very important that they are not isolated. If it were possible I > would suggest that she spent more time at pasture, if not all her time. > If not, then follow the suggestions above. Does her owner spend much > time with her, or is it only when she is training her twice a week? > Perhaps she should consider working with her for a short period every > day? > Please do let me know how you get on! > Helen Toner. > School of Psychology > Queens University Belfast > > On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 12:07:19 +0200 Cecilie Marie Mejdell > wrote: > > > Hello > > Does anyone "out there" have any suggestions on how to try to stop > > wind-sucking? The problem horse is a 3 year old mare, a norwegian fjord > > pony. > > There is nothing special about the environment, it seems OK. The horse is > > kept together with other horses, in single boxes, fed 8 kg hay a day + some > > concentrates and minerals/vitamins, is let out in a paddock 10 hours a day > > with company, and is trained twice a week. It is possible that the > > wind-sucking has been going on for some while, without the owner being > > aware of it (there is hardly a sign of wood-chewing in the stable and the > > owner bought the horse 3 months ago.) But now, after the horses returned > > home for a period after two weeks on pasture day and night, the > > wind-sucking has exploded, and is exhibited both out in the paddock and in > > the stable. > > I guess that a neck-collar works by physically preventing the contraction > > of the muscles involved. Is it possible to break the behaviour, to change > > the motivation? > > > > Regards > > > > Cecilie Mejdell > > > > > > > > > > Cecilie Mejdell, DVM > > National Center for Veterinary Research and Commercial Services ltd (VESO) > > N-2500 Tynset > > Norway > > From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 12-JUN-2001 06:40:56.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Shrieking prey and predatory grip ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Campbell" Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 6:04 PM > In spite of this, the following ditty will be included in a forthcoming > collection of Mortal Dog Poetry by guess-who. > > > DON'T SCREAM! > > Sad, but true, this awful fact, > but sounds of screaming shrill; > Awaken basic canine drives > that tell the dog to kill. Sad, but also I wonder if always true as to the intent of that scream and actual result. Isn't there also alot of work that reveals that scream to be even more _warning_ to others hidden away so they can find shelter or stay quiet and avoid the final chase? The problems between children and dogs won't go away any time soon, I'm afraid. margory cohen From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 12-JUN-2001 06:40:56.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network" CC: Subj: RE: Genetically modified horses ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Walker" Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 4:39 AM > I listened recently to a radio report on the current work on genetic > modification of horses for equestrian sporting purposes. I was frankly > stunned and then horrified. > > I would appreciate more information from those up to speed with this > question. The goal of this work seems to be the "engineer" successful horses > for "eventing". To be brutally brief I was asked (in effect) to applaud the > destruction of a large number of mares for the harvesting of genetic > material. The prize is to go to the noble end of allowing a lady competitor > (yes - one of those insatiable trophy seekers!) to succeed in competition. > May her jodhpurs swell with pride! hello - quick note back. I don't have any thoughts pulled together on this, have only read a bit of this myself; New York Times carried a short piece last month which because of copyright, I can't forward to the list but if one wants, please write off-list and I'll be pleased to pass along. I couldn't find at the site Dr. Walker posted info on this but did find a link to the Horse Genome Project which from quick scan indicates this isn't anything new. www.uky.edu/Ag/Horsemap/ I'd love to find in Mr. Shakespeare or other Immortals "follow the money" but am way behind. Sure appreciate quote in Dr. Walker's. margory cohen From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 12-JUN-2001 06:41:03.76 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: was sound alarms, etc. - happiness hello - one more quick note - perhaps you know Vicki Hearne's _Animal Happiness_ wherein concepts of what is that "happiness" are presented most thoughtfully. _Adam's Task_, too, as I recollect, addresses this. I've enquired of some trainers I know in the US who are using collars, some again for the first time after a gap, but I have no cites for you. Instead, I would note attention to the work of the dog, which work and dog speaks for himself from what I'm told is being done these days with e-collar training. I also know of some police dog trainers who use collars in training and one sees a high degree of work which demonstrates what I'd call happiness. "Happiness." I think the biggest happiness that I've seen is dogs who are still alive, who were failed by other methods of training or are now enabled to a degree of clarity that rules and opportunities have more possibility. margory cohen ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 12:50 PM Subject: Re: sound alarms and dogs and horses and stuff Has any one got papers on the 'happiness' of dogs post use of electric shock collars. I know studies have been done on humans post electric shock therapy and the word happiness is never used!!! Kirsty Ryley Animal Behaviour Therapist From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 12-JUN-2001 12:55:47.28 To: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: was sound alarms, etc. - happiness Dear Margory, Thanks for the reference to Vicki Hearne's book, I will read it. There are still important points about e-collars. 1. The use of these collars is becoming commonplace again at a time when most trainers still fail to grasp how much can be done with other methods like clicker training. This is a shame because many of the dogs trained with e-collars could be trained just as effectively in a number of other ways, including clicker. 2. Having an e-collar does not make one a good trainer, but it definitely enables a bad trainer to do a lot more damage to a dog [causing pain and causing behaviour problems] than one who just does a lousy job with positive reinforcement. 3. I would feel happier about the use of e-collars if the same mindless bullshit about punishing and dominating young dogs, alpha rolling them at every opportunity and hanging them up by choke chains was not still so prevalent. As a vet and behaviourist I am fed up with seeing the results of this kind of abuse, and also of meeting heartbroken owners who know that what was done at training has made their previously wonderful dog now fearful and aggressive. There are still too many trainers that do these things [in the UK] , and I wouldn't want a single one of them to have access to a shock device of any kind. 4. Owners with problem dogs are often desperate and angry about their dog's behaviour. Some of those I see [a minority thankfully] have already tried every method of punishment under the sun, and would jump at the chance to use a powerful shock on their dog. |They would turn the thing straight up to max, just for the pleasure of finally getting their own back.This is purely through ignorance as this approach fits in with their limited understanding of why the dog has a problem. I wouldn't want these people to use shock collars either, and am frankly fed up with talking to the people that have already used them and made their problems worse. I think that the best refinement for a shock collar would be to make a device that delivers a shock to the owner and the dog simultaneously [possibly the trainer too?]. This would certainly make owners aware of what was being done to their dog, and you would find only the very mildest shocks being used! Jon From: IN%"Kirstyryl@aol.com" 12-JUN-2001 13:32:17.34 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com", IN%"margory@dnai.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: was sound alarms, etc. - happiness I've known of dogs which have had shock collars used on them to stop territorial barking, which have become increasingly more aggressive towards people visiting the home. These dogs have badly bitten. Unfortunately they ended up being euthanased. From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 12-JUN-2001 14:03:40.88 To: IN%"h.toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" "Helen toner", IN%"cmejdell@online.no" "Cecilie Marie Mejdell" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: wind-sucking Hi, I agree with what Helen says and would add that it might be useful to observe the horse in a field to see whether it has an established pair-bond with one of the others. If so then it might be quite stressful if the horse is being housed away from its pair bonded partner, and a solution could be to house them next to each other with the opportunity to touch and see each other. A large perspex window and some large commuicating holes between the stables would be good. Likewise, if there is any antagonism between this horse and others then the culprit should be housed further away and beyond sight. Jon From: IN%"atorregrossa@hotmail.com" "Ann-Marie Torregrossa" 12-JUN-2001 14:24:42.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction hello all i have to admit i have been lurking in the background for a little while now... and i'm starting to feel like i am eavesdropping. i am a graduate of hampshire college in amherst massachusetts, where i studied animal behavior i am now working in a research lab, where i spend most of my time running immunos or gels which is interesting but i would like to go back to graduate school and reacquaint myself with ethology and ecology... so i signed onto this list to be part of those conversations again. nice to meet you all ann-marie ps. if anyone has suggestions for good conservation bio/animal behav. programs let me know, i'm always looking for input :) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From: IN%"supereeyore@hotmail.com" "Eddie Fernandez" 13-JUN-2001 00:37:17.79 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: happiness is next to dogliness How about occasionally taking the collar off the dog and handing the pet the remote? Maybe he could knock out a few of those "bad" owner behaviors, like relying on too much punishment, ignoring the dog, etc. :) Eddie F... > > I think that the best refinement for a shock collar would be to make a >device that delivers a shock to the owner and the dog simultaneously >[possibly the trainer too?]. > This would certainly make owners aware of what was being done to their >dog, and you would find only the very mildest shocks being used! > > > Jon > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From: IN%"m.dierendonck@planet.nl" 13-JUN-2001 04:31:39.78 To: IN%"H.Toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" Subj: RE: wind-sucking and a quick request to all! Helen, Below I have some recent articles about the use of a bit for you. I would be interested in the articles you already have. (I can read French or German articles if this helps). Bonnor, J. Changing tack - Horses may prefer bridles that have a bit missing. New Scientist. 1998 Jul 4; 159(2141):16 Cook, W. R. A solution to respiratory and other problems of the horse caused by the bit. PFERDEHEILKUNDE. 2000 Jul-2000 Aug 31; 16(4):333-334,336-338,340-342,344-351 Wilewski, K. A. and Rubin, L. Bit seats: A dental procedure for enhancing performance of show horses. Equine Practice. 1999 Apr; 21(4):16-20 Machteld ============================================================================ ======================= drs. Machteld van Dierendonck, EurProBiol Equid ethologist FIRE consultancy m.dierendonck@planet.nl -----Original Message----- From: H.Toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk [mailto:H.Toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk] Sent: 11 June 2001 05:36 To: Helen toner Cc: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca; Cecilie Marie Mejdell Subject: Re: wind-sucking and a quick request to all! Cecilie, I am sorry if much of what I said reiterated Jacquelines comments, I have only just read her mail! It has taken me the guts of the last hour to get through my inbox! To everyone: As for my request.... I don't know if any of you remember me, I am doing my research into bit use in horses and the behavioural and welfare implications. Hilary Clayton was very helpful in sending me information and papers but I now appear to have mislaid her email address. This is a request directed to Hilary and also to anyone else who has an interest in this area: Hilary sent me some very interesting papers on Fluoroscopic studies of bits (1984, 85). Does anyone know of any more recent papers on the effect of bits? (preferably in English!). I have also been following with interest all the publicity in the British equestrian press about Myler Bits..... I would love to hear any comments on these! Finally, can anyone enlighten me as to why the sole aim of dressage riders is to increase salivation.... supposedly creating a soft mouth and a flexible poll. (Yes, I do some dressage myself). Why is excessive salivation widely accepted as being a good sign, when vets would recognise it as indicative of a mouth problem if the animal was not being ridden? Comments are welcome from everyone, horsey or not.... I am interested in the welfare implications. Thankyou! Helen. ---------------------- Helen Toner From: IN%"m.dierendonck@planet.nl" 13-JUN-2001 04:37:37.67 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: FW: wind-sucking Dear all, I just realised after Celillies answer, I did only send my answer to Cecile herself and not to the list last Sunday, maybe others are interested as well. So better late than never, for all interested, and I hope it does not double some of the other comments.(my email had a hick-up for a few days, so I have not seen any list items.) Machteld ============================================================================ ======================= drs. Machteld van Dierendonck, EurProBiol Equid ethologist FIRE consultancy m.dierendonck@planet.nl -----Original Message----- From: Machteld van Dierendonck [mailto:m.dierendonck@capitolonline.nl] Sent: 10 June 2001 22:26 To: Cecilie Marie Mejdell Subject: RE: wind-sucking Cecillie, Windsucking, and all other stereotypes, occurs when a horse is not happy/frustrated with its environment, with the way it is kept and / or managed. Windsucking produces endorphins by which the horses 'sedate' themselves. They can get addicted to the endorphins. So you need also to look for the cause. We can only guess why in this case. In this case (seen the age and the way it started) I presume the pony has separation anxiety which can have something to do with the way they pony is weaned or taken away from his / her home herd. For many horses 10 hours a day of social interaction and movement is enough (but still leaves 14 hours without social interaction). 3 year is rather young to be alone in a stable for 14 hours a day (however there are enough horses who can cope with this, but apparently this one does not cope). 3 year and having already a stereotypy is very young and indeed you have to try to stop it before it does damage to itself (internal or teeth problems). I guess the best thing is to provide as much as possible enriched environment for all the 24 hours a day: for instance leave them outside in the paddock for 24 hours a day (with at least one other friend). Or put him together with an other horse in a double stable, if needed with a beam in between or so when they are arguing over food. Or take out the top of the wall between two stables so he has always the possibility to physical social interaction (only sniffing through the bars in not enough apparently). If he need to eat alone: provide the food very slowly: use a Foodball (a plastic container with small holes which has to be pushed around to release small amounts of pellets). Put a heavy rack over the hay s it takes hours to eat the hay, provide other toys or branches to eat / skin off the bark etc. etc. etc. It is worrying that he also does it out in the paddock with other horses: so also there he needs permanent stimulation. You can temporarily use a collar, but ONLY if you also provide these other measures. The collar in it self does not work at all and should only been used for a short period. If it is because he was maltreated (weaned to abruptly, other traumatic separation experience), the owner also has to work on this. I hope this helps. Machteld ============================================================================ ======================= Machteld van Dierendonck. NB NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: m.dierendonck@planet.nl -----Original Message----- From: Cecilie Marie Mejdell [mailto:cmejdell@online.no] Sent: 08 June 2001 12:07 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: wind-sucking Hello Does anyone "out there" have any suggestions on how to try to stop wind-sucking? The problem horse is a 3 year old mare, a norwegian fjord pony. There is nothing special about the environment, it seems OK. The horse is kept together with other horses, in single boxes, fed 8 kg hay a day + some concentrates and minerals/vitamins, is let out in a paddock 10 hours a day with company, and is trained twice a week. It is possible that the wind-sucking has been going on for some while, without the owner being aware of it (there is hardly a sign of wood-chewing in the stable and the owner bought the horse 3 months ago.) But now, after the horses returned home for a period after two weeks on pasture day and night, the wind-sucking has exploded, and is exhibited both out in the paddock and in the stable. I guess that a neck-collar works by physically preventing the contraction of the muscles involved. Is it possible to break the behaviour, to change the motivation? Regards Cecilie Mejdell Cecilie Mejdell, DVM National Center for Veterinary Research and Commercial Services ltd (VESO) N-2500 Tynset Norway From: IN%"h.toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" "Helen toner" 13-JUN-2001 05:07:35.46 To: IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com" "Amy Coffman" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: wind-sucking and a quick request to all! Sorry Amy and everyone, I should have mentioned I have already read Dr Cooks papers and accessed his website (very interesting... I would strongly recommend that everyone who has anything to do with horses should do so!). Amy, thankyou for the reply and the info about Dr Jessica Jahiel who I will definitely contact.... much appreciated! Do you use Dr Cooks bridle, and have you found the same benefits? Helen ---------------------- Helen toner From: IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com" "Amy Coffman" 13-JUN-2001 06:16:46.61 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: wind-sucking and a quick request to all! Hi Helen, I assumed you had probably already encountered Dr. Cook, but thought I'd mention him just in case. Very thought-provoking reading, isn't it? We should know intuitively that strapping a piece of metal into an animal's mouth--much less attaching reins to it--- is not an insignificant thing, yet it's amazing how casual people are about it. And this doesn't even touch on the number of bits that are designed (corkscrews, barbs, wire thin etc) to inflict outright pain at the lightest touch. I have not, myself, used Cook's specific bitless bridle but I do ride the majority of my horses---including my stallion when I was riding him, and *all* youngsters--- bitless anyway. I use a single-ply nylon web headcollar with some lightweight reins snapped to the side rings, and have had never had a problem not having a bit. Certainly, it must be much more comfortable for the horses. The Cook bridle seems well designed and I agree with him that it would be wonderful if riding schools (for one) would adopt it. Best wishes, Amy Coffman Painted Moon Ranch Colbert, OK USA -----Original Message----- From: Helen toner To: Amy Coffman Cc: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Date: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 6:12 AM Subject: Re: wind-sucking and a quick request to all! Do you use Dr Cooks bridle, and have you found the same benefits? Helen From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 13-JUN-2001 06:40:13.75 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: was sound alarms, etc. - happiness hello Jon - -- my pleasure to mention Vicki Hearne. i remember from time past this list isn't intended for debate as to methods but i do think some of what you said applies to _any_ method, be it clicking or e-stimulating. the only "equipment" that damages is in the head of the trainer. some of the so=called "purely positive" methods are in fact anti-social (ignoring the dog, isolating the dog) and to a social creature, actually cruel. some things more lure a dog than train, "shape" than actually teach. me, i don't train with collars, tho i meet right now first-rate people who do, and have and some who are returning to it -- alot because of the need for real reliability. (i live with Deerhounds -- so you know right away i'm personally lost;-)). where i am in san francisco the issue is off-lead control and the language about that is so illusive, it seems more that people don't know anymore what is possible walking with a dog off-lead. i think some of the so-called new fangled "kindness" actually hurts the dog (those nose rings and leader contraptions end up often with dog in neck trouble; clicking makes some dogs nervous i understand so one has to train away the nerves and then "train" --). "punishment" has overtaken "correction" in the dog trainers' vocabulary and the blaming in the business is damaging, not only to people's reputations but to the Dog. i treasure in my library some wonderful books from English authors writing in the 1930's actually and some of what's in them i think is as true today. Messrs. Scott and Fuller i don't think are outdated either. and from U. of Penn. there is some interesting work as well. i think it's more education of people, right thru from your surgery to where i am, working for off-lead areas. margory --those folks with heavy hands, whether it's uncalled for high on e-collar, jerking or beating a dog are not training, anymore than offering a buffet of treats and lures. there's a fella here named Fred Hassen doing alot of work right now with collars that people are talking about. there's a website if you search by his name. i've not seen him, but i know and have seen trainers who've worked with him and more, i've seen dogs worked under his influence who are terrific. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Bowen Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 11:55 AM This would certainly make owners aware of what was being done to their dog, and you would find only the very mildest shocks being used! From: IN%"cmejdell@online.no" "Cecilie Marie Mejdell" 13-JUN-2001 07:17:41.36 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: SV: wind-sucking Dear Jon Thanks for your suggestions. Some more informations first, and then my questions. This horse seems to be a leader, and quite independant. However, one of the other two horses is hanging around her all the time. These two have boxes next to each other and can both see and touch each other. In the paddock, the three horses are left loose together. The conditions under which the horses are stabled are in my view not worse than average, but of course far from a horse' natural life. The horse was bought 2 months ago, and as I understand, the conditions were quite similar the other place: Kept with one other mare, both out in a paddock in the day, stabled in single boxes (with solid walls between) at night, plenty of roughage (but not available all time) and somewhat more concentrates, and perhaps som more frequent training. What suprises me is this: Is it possible for a stereotypic behaviour to develop so quickly (in one or at max two days) and become so fixed that it is displayed very frequently, even between some mouth fulls of grain and when groomed? Is it possible that the behaviour has developed over some time and that we just haven't noticed anything? The former owner has explained that she has never seen this, and claimes she would have noticed. She also tells that the horse had a period when it chewed wood, a behaviour she thinks it learned from the other horse. Is it likely that the moderat stress of being returned to the stable and paddock (torgether with the other horse) from the free life of pasture could trigger the wind-sucking behaviour if she had been completely "clean" before? We have done or are planning the following precautions: Let the horses out on full time pasture for the summer. Remove any biting-surfaces in the box or paint them with bad tasting things. Give access to roughage at all times. Never leave the horse alone in stable or paddock. Should we give the horse any negative response (show disapproval) on the wind-sucking? Thanks, Cecilie Cecilie Mejdell VESO as N-2500 Tynset, Norway ---------- > Fra: Jon Bowen > Til: Helen toner ; Cecilie Marie Mejdell > Kopi: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Emne: Re: wind-sucking > Dato: 12. juni 2001 21:53 > > Hi, > > I agree with what Helen says and would add that it might be useful to > observe the horse in a field to see whether it has an established pair-bond > with one of the others. > > If so then it might be quite stressful if the horse is being housed away > from its pair bonded partner, and a solution could be to house them next to > each other with the opportunity to touch and see each other. > A large perspex window and some large commuicating holes between the stables > would be good. > > Likewise, if there is any antagonism between this horse and others then the > culprit should be housed further away and beyond sight. > > Jon > From: IN%"Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de" "Andreas Briese" 13-JUN-2001 07:41:05.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re. wind.sucking There is some evidence wind-sucking is a strategy to cope with an unpleasend unstimulating (anoying) environment alike stereotype behaviour in mink or pig (esp. boars&sows). In mink some stereotype behaviour may also increase endorphin secretion. Also in farmed mink it had been shown that many stimuli leaded to expression of stereotype behaviour: excitement bevore feeded if hearing the feeder maschine, frustation if not been feeded or not been feeded at time, excitement because of new introducted elements into the cages, fear of humans and so on. Seems as if over all "excitement" in mink may be a trigger? Specific cause of stereotype behaviour are widely unknown and also the kind of stereotype behaviour linked to a defined environmental element can not be predicted. There may be great individual variance also genetics had been discussed. Unfortunatly enrichment not always eradicate but often decrease appearance of stereotype behaviour aberation in a sense of reducing time-budget of abnormal behaviours. The earlier the tendence of an individual to develop abnormal behaviour is seen the better seemes to be the effect of environmental changes. But often the development of ethopathic behaviour had not been observed quick enough and the behaviour becomes a "habbit". Also if seemingly free of it for years some animals return to show it once again without known cause. Ethopatic behaviour may also been adopted by other animals who just try out and copy it. In case of wind-sucking some health problems may occur (i.e. kolik). Therefor keep in mind: putting a wind-sucker to others may influence their health if they begin to copy it. In germany wind-suckking is a so called "Hauptmangel" which allows a customer to give the horse back to a seller if the "infectious bad habbit" had not been mentioned in transaction. Greetings Andreas ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Institut fuer Tierhygiene, Tierschutz & Nutztierethologie Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover (Institute of Animal Hygiene, Welfare and Farm Animal Ethologie) (School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover) Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese Buenteweg 17p 30559 Hannover Tel.: (0511) 953-8837 (0511) 120 2102 Fax.: (0511) 953-8588 (0511) 120 99 2102 e-mail: Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de alternativ (grosse Attachments): Andreas_Briese@animcare-sci.de ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: IN%"acofmart@cherokeetel.com" "Amy Coffman" 13-JUN-2001 07:47:52.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: wind-sucking Hello Cecilie, I know this question was directed mainly to Jon, but since it was posted to the list I hope you won't mind my making a comment. This mare could be cribbing due to ulcer pain; has she ever been checked? (Is Amanda Waters from Bristol on this list?) Ulcers can arise fairly quickly, especially in situations where a horse does not have access to forage 24/7. Additional stressors such as stabling, training, etc, can exacerbate this. IMO, your planned improvements are good ones and should help her. I would not, however, create any sort of negative consequence for the cribbing itself--as others have mentioned, it is a coping mechanism and a revealing symptom of a larger problem which your planned management changes will likely address. Best wishes, Amy Coffman Painted Moon Ranch Colbert, OK USA From: IN%"Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac.be" "Marc Vandenheede" 13-JUN-2001 09:34:21.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Re. wind.sucking A 15:40 13/06/2001 +0100, Andreas Briese a =E9crit : >There is some evidence wind-sucking is a strategy to cope with an=20 >unpleasend unstimulating (anoying) environment alike stereotype=20 >behaviour in mink or pig (esp. boars&sows). In mink some stereotype=20 >behaviour may also increase endorphin secretion. > >Also in farmed mink it had been shown that many stimuli leaded to=20 >expression of stereotype behaviour: excitement bevore feeded if=20 >hearing the feeder maschine, frustation if not been feeded or not=20 >been feeded at time, excitement because of new introducted elements=20 >into the cages, fear of humans and so on. Seems as=20 >if over all "excitement" in mink may be a trigger?=20 > >Specific cause of stereotype behaviour are widely unknown and also=20 >the kind of stereotype behaviour linked to a defined=20 >environmental element can not be predicted. There may be great=20 >individual variance also genetics had been discussed. > >Unfortunatly enrichment not always eradicate but often >decrease appearance of stereotype behaviour aberation in a sense of=20 >reducing time-budget of abnormal behaviours. The earlier the tendence=20 >of an individual to develop abnormal behaviour is seen the better=20 >seemes to be the effect of environmental changes. But often the=20 >development of ethopathic behaviour had not been observed quick=20 >enough and the behaviour becomes a "habbit". Also if seemingly free=20 >of it for years some animals return to show it once again=20 >without known cause.=20 > >Ethopatic behaviour may also been adopted by other animals who just=20 >try out and copy it. In case of wind-sucking some health problems may=20 >occur (i.e. kolik). Therefor keep in mind: putting a wind-sucker=20 >to others may influence their health if they begin to copy it. =20 > If I remember weel, it has been demontrated that air swallowed by wind= sucking horses does not go to the stomach but is directly expulsed= (eructation). So if there is a correlation between wind sucking and kolik,= it is probably related to a third factor ... (stress?). I don't think that this behaviour can be learned by observation. Maybe= observations of horses beginning wind sucking after being putted together= with wind suckers was also related to the stress caused by this "routine"= modification. >In germany wind-suckking is a so called "Hauptmangel" which allows=20 >a customer to give the horse back to a seller if the "infectious bad=20 >habbit" had not been mentioned in transaction. > > >Greetings > >Andreas > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Institut fuer Tierhygiene, Tierschutz & Nutztierethologie >Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover >(Institute of Animal Hygiene, Welfare and Farm Animal Ethologie) =20 >(School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover) >Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese >=20 >Buenteweg 17p >30559 Hannover > >Tel.: (0511) 953-8837 >(0511) 120 2102 >Fax.: (0511) 953-8588 >(0511) 120 99 2102 >e-mail: Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de >alternativ (grosse Attachments): Andreas_Briese@animcare-sci.de >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >
ffff,0000,0000Marc Vandenheede Universit=E9 de Li=E8ge Facult=E9 de M=E9decine V=E9t=E9rinaire Service d'Hygi=E8ne et Bioclimatologie (Ethologie appliqu=E9e aux animaux domestiques) Bd de Colonster, B=E2t. B43 4000 Li=E8ge Belgium t=E9l.: 32/(0)4/366.41.48 GSM: 32/(0)474/74.84.08 fax.: 32/(0)4/366.41.22 0000,0000,ffffemail: Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac.be
From: IN%"JLGhmn8532@aol.com" 13-JUN-2001 20:37:24.63 To: IN%"supereeyore@hotmail.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: happiness is next to dogliness I'm with you Eddie. I believe shock collars to be another one of those convenience toys that lazy trainers use. Maybe they are afraid of some real quality work with their dogs. To put this in perspective, imagine training a killer whale or any other large animal with other than pure reward and extinction training. Jeff Gehman Consultant Houston, TX From: IN%"john.jac@ava.com.au" "John and Jacqui Ley" 13-JUN-2001 21:59:34.95 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethologists" CC: Subj: That doesn't surprise me Kirsty. IF the dog gets a shock when someone approaches the house then that person must be the source of their pain and therefore attack first!! The shock collar just causes an escalation of the aggression. JAcqui Ley From: IN%"Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de" "Andreas Briese" 14-JUN-2001 01:02:43.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE:e-collars To Margory and others interested in To me something specific in e-collars seems to be, that the dog can't see what is threatening him. For the dog it must be a little bit like Sigmund Freud's "UEber-Ich" on a part time base. Last week i just mentioned that this "invisible threat" must be very obscour to the dog himself and other dogs if the dog is housed in a group. To me the central question is: Can the e-collar be an adequate stimulus for a dog? There is no visible cause for the shock (pain?) the dog can connect punishment with behaviour. Furthermore dogs are working with their owners only a portion of day. How do they feel if once there is a punishment other time nothing happens? Using other methods should be better understood by the dogs. Especially "social penalties" like ignoring a dog a few moments after misbehaviour seems to me more adequate reaction. Dogs are social animals. Denying a member of group after mishbehaviour is a common signal (i.e. puppies pushed away by their mother etc..). Cant see that this is "cruel" like Margory Cohen wrote. Two Years ago we tried to declare use of e-collars (and simular systems like remote controlled sprayers etc.) to be against german animal welfare law. But the problem was that in germany 300 000 e-collars had been sold to the people and there is no way to enforce such a law. Thus the law has been modified to alow only experienced dog trainers to use e-collars. Enforcement is still low. Andreas >>>From: margory cohen >>>hello Jon - -- my pleasure to mention Vicki Hearne. >>>i remember from time past this list isn't intended for debate as to methods but i do think some of what you said applies to _any_ method, be it clicking or e-stimulating. the only "equipment" that damages is in the head of the trainer. some of the so=called "purely positive" methods are in fact anti-social (ignoring the dog, isolating the dog) and to a social creature, actually cruel. some things more lure a dog than train, "shape" than actually teach. <<< ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Institut fuer Tierhygiene, Tierschutz & Nutztierethologie Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover (Institute of Animal Hygiene, Welfare and Farm Animal Ethologie) (School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover) Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese Buenteweg 17p 30559 Hannover Tel.: (0511) 953-8837 (0511) 120 2102 Fax.: (0511) 953-8588 (0511) 120 99 2102 e-mail: Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de alternativ (grosse Attachments): Andreas_Briese@animcare-sci.de ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: IN%"DMills@dmu.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" 14-JUN-2001 04:50:25.18 To: IN%"m.dierendonck@planet.nl" "'m.dierendonck@planet.nl'", IN%"H.Toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" Subj: RE: wind-sucking and bits Hi, For what its worth we are currently engaged in a couple of projects on the bit. One is looking at comparing behavioural responses to different forms of bit and bitless bridle in standard conditions and the other is assessing the bitless bridle. Its too early to report anything concrete, but we are finding that people reallly like the spirit bitless bridle (Iie Bob Cook's) once they get over their intial reservations. We will report when we have results. On a seprate note, most of the evidence on windsucking is now pointing towards a gastro-intestinal association, and supports Christine's Nicol saliva hypothesis. ie by doing this they produce more saliva which helps buffer GI contents, so looking at diet is probably the most important thing - give them forage and lots of it. It is unwise to lump all stereotypies in the horse together as some form of generalised frustration and even the same superficial stereotypy may relate to a different specific cause. ie it is a final common pathway of a number of states. Hope this is helpful Daniel Daniel Mills BVSc MRCVS Principal Lecturer in Behavioural Studies & Animal Welfare Animal Behaviour, Welfare and Cognition Group De Montfort University Lincoln Caythorpe Campus Caythorpe Lincs NG32 3EP UK Tel 44(0)1400 275629 e-mail dmills@dmu.ac.uk web-page http://www.dmu.ac.uk/ln/Agriculture/staffcvs/DanielS.Mills.htm -----Original Message----- From: Machteld van Dierendonck [mailto:m.dierendonck@capitolonline.nl] Sent: 13 June 2001 11:34 To: H.Toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk Cc: Applied Ethology List Subject: RE: wind-sucking and a quick request to all! Helen, Below I have some recent articles about the use of a bit for you. I would be interested in the articles you already have. (I can read French or German articles if this helps). Bonnor, J. Changing tack - Horses may prefer bridles that have a bit missing. New Scientist. 1998 Jul 4; 159(2141):16 Cook, W. R. A solution to respiratory and other problems of the horse caused by the bit. PFERDEHEILKUNDE. 2000 Jul-2000 Aug 31; 16(4):333-334,336-338,340-342,344-351 Wilewski, K. A. and Rubin, L. Bit seats: A dental procedure for enhancing performance of show horses. Equine Practice. 1999 Apr; 21(4):16-20 Machteld ============================================================================ ======================= drs. Machteld van Dierendonck, EurProBiol Equid ethologist FIRE consultancy m.dierendonck@planet.nl -----Original Message----- From: H.Toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk [mailto:H.Toner@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk] Sent: 11 June 2001 05:36 To: Helen toner Cc: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca; Cecilie Marie Mejdell Subject: Re: wind-sucking and a quick request to all! Cecilie, I am sorry if much of what I said reiterated Jacquelines comments, I have only just read her mail! It has taken me the guts of the last hour to get through my inbox! To everyone: As for my request.... I don't know if any of you remember me, I am doing my research into bit use in horses and the behavioural and welfare implications. Hilary Clayton was very helpful in sending me information and papers but I now appear to have mislaid her email address. This is a request directed to Hilary and also to anyone else who has an interest in this area: Hilary sent me some very interesting papers on Fluoroscopic studies of bits (1984, 85). Does anyone know of any more recent papers on the effect of bits? (preferably in English!). I have also been following with interest all the publicity in the British equestrian press about Myler Bits..... I would love to hear any comments on these! Finally, can anyone enlighten me as to why the sole aim of dressage riders is to increase salivation.... supposedly creating a soft mouth and a flexible poll. (Yes, I do some dressage myself). Why is excessive salivation widely accepted as being a good sign, when vets would recognise it as indicative of a mouth problem if the animal was not being ridden? Comments are welcome from everyone, horsey or not.... I am interested in the welfare implications. Thankyou! Helen. ---------------------- Helen Toner From: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen?=" 14-JUN-2001 05:13:37.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: nutrient deficiencies and increased activity Dear all Has anyone information (experimental or anecdotal) on increased = activity levels associated with nutrient deficient diets? I have found literature reporting increased activity with deficiency of calcium (chickens), sodium (chickens), omega-3 fatty acids (rhesus = monkeys), vitamin B6 (rats/mice) and iron (humans). =20 I am about to formulate feed for my experimental chickens (broilers), = and in the last experiment they were more active on a diet with a more varied composition, but also slightly lower mineral/vitamin concentration than control. I would like to replicate this, but at the same time have = more of a handle on the exact nutritional cause. Any suggestions are welcome. Regards Birte=20 __________________________________ Birte Lindstr=F8m Nielsen Senior Scientist Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences Research Centre Foulum DK-8830 Tjele Denmark Phone: +45 8999 1373 Fax: +45 8999 1500 Email: birte.nielsen@agrsci.dk From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 14-JUN-2001 06:39:16.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: RE:e-collars Hello. From what I read, dogs in Germany have been facing more problems than choice of training technique. I think also some of yours reflects not current (no word play intended;-) understanding and practices with the collar. Yours and another I found here still reflect use of collar and _punishment_ -- not correction or training. These are not correct uses and would happen with anything. I can't change my mind to what you are saying below. And I don't say this to debate, but in your position, I heartily encourage you to find sources who are using this tool properly so from the vast reach you have by the very nature of your job, the information you disseminate will be accurate. margory cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andreas Briese" Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 1:02 AM Subject: RE:e-collars > > To me the central question is: Can the e-collar be an adequate > stimulus for a dog? There is no visible cause for the > shock (pain?) the dog can connect punishment with behaviour. > Furthermore dogs are working with their owners only a portion of day. > How do they feel if once there is a punishment other time nothing > happens? // > Two Years ago we tried to declare use of e-collars (and simular > systems like remote controlled sprayers etc.) to be against > german animal welfare law. But the problem was that in germany 300 > 000 e-collars had been sold to the people and there is no way to > enforce such a law. Thus the law has been modified to alow only > experienced dog trainers to use e-collars. Enforcement is still low. (Institute of Animal Hygiene, Welfare and Farm Animal Ethologie) (School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover) Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese From: IN%"Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de" "Andreas Briese" 14-JUN-2001 08:02:29.92 To: IN%"margory@dnai.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: RE:e-collars Do not know what your problem is with the restriction of free use of the e-collars. Remember you have mentioned many times that e-collars only should be used by dog trainers and people who really have the experience to use them properly. Problem in germany is, everybody could buy an e-collar and to my knowledge around 300000 have done so. Means 300000 people which mostly use it with their own dog without having the desired experience - very often show-dogs are trained with e-collars and they are trained by their owners to (don't know if this is diffenrent elsewhere). They do so out of public space, which means their is no "social control". In short terms: There were many welfare problems reported because of the not theoretically but real use of e-collars by unexperienced owners (and a few not so good dog trainers too , i should mention). In this situation reaction in the interest of animal welfare is requested - isn't it. Problem is, you can't regulate market national by means of animal welfare friendly equipment, can't you in europe? But, this had been the only way to prevent owners to buy them. What comes out is by law: e-collars should only be used by dog trainers experienced to use them - that is it. please, what's wrong in this policy Andreas > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 05:26:07 -0700 > From: margory cohen > Subject: Re: RE:e-collars > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Reply-to: margory cohen > Hello. > > From what I read, dogs in Germany have been facing more problems than choice > of training technique. > > I think also some of yours reflects not current (no word play intended;-) > understanding and practices with the collar. Yours and another I found here > still reflect use of collar and _punishment_ -- not correction or training. > These are not correct uses and would happen with anything. > > I can't change my mind to what you are saying below. And I don't say this > to debate, but in your position, I heartily encourage you to find sources > who are using this tool properly so from the vast reach you have by the very > nature of your job, the information you disseminate will be accurate. > > margory cohen > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andreas Briese" > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 1:02 AM > Subject: RE:e-collars > > > > > To me the central question is: Can the e-collar be an adequate > > stimulus for a dog? There is no visible cause for the > > shock (pain?) the dog can connect punishment with behaviour. > > Furthermore dogs are working with their owners only a portion of day. > > How do they feel if once there is a punishment other time nothing > > happens? > > // > > Two Years ago we tried to declare use of e-collars (and simular > > systems like remote controlled sprayers etc.) to be against > > german animal welfare law. But the problem was that in germany 300 > > 000 e-collars had been sold to the people and there is no way to > > enforce such a law. Thus the law has been modified to alow only > > experienced dog trainers to use e-collars. Enforcement is still low. > > (Institute of Animal Hygiene, Welfare and Farm Animal Ethologie) > (School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover) > Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Institut fuer Tierhygiene, Tierschutz & Nutztierethologie Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover (Institute of Animal Hygiene, Welfare and Farm Animal Ethologie) (School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover) Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese Buenteweg 17p 30559 Hannover Tel.: (0511) 953-8837 (0511) 120 2102 Fax.: (0511) 953-8588 (0511) 120 99 2102 e-mail: Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de alternativ (grosse Attachments): Andreas_Briese@animcare-sci.de ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 14-JUN-2001 09:13:38.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: RE:e-collars - or any kind of "equipment" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andreas Briese" Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 8:01 AM > Do not know what your problem is with the restriction of free use > of the e-collars. Remember you have mentioned many times that > e-collars only should be used by dog trainers and people who > really have the experience to use them properly. Problem in germany > is, everybody could buy an e-collar and to my knowledge around 300000 > have done so. hello - With time differences, and oceans and continents between us -- amazing how quick we can sometimes be in touch -- Before I take off for work however, please may I say that I didn't say the above -- I've only said that it's not the equipment that trains the dog. And I didn't say that only experienced or so-called professionals should use that equipment. I think it behooves all of us to ensure the information we impart is accurate and the truth is that it isn't the tool that is inappropriate, but use of {whatever tool} is used. My understanding is collars actually don't "shock" -- collars nowadays tingle or vibrate. And the work that comes from a dog who is trained properly with this method speaks for itself in terms of a dog who is happy in the work and in knowing the "rules." Look, I live in San Francisco, CA, USA, where presently there are more threats to how we live with dogs and what we can do with them than you can "shake a stick at" and it's alarming how much mis-information about the Dog generally surrounds us. And that includes some techniques in training. Just my experience and observation. Off I go. margory cohen ---and as to the comparison of techniques used say for dolphins vs. dogs -- a marine mammal trainer I read say once that he didn't train his dogs as he trained the sea life he worked with because he didn't want a "professional" relationship with his dog. I do believe it's apples and oranges. We walk and time was even could work side by side with Dog and have done thru time. From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 14-JUN-2001 11:16:31.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: humane slaughter revisited I remember this coming up a year or so ago on the list and individuals expressing disbelief that it could happen. Here is further confirmation from reputable sources. A new piece of legislation last week has been introduced into the U.S. Congress, based on the work of Humane Farming Association primarily but also the Society for Animal Protective Legislation, Christine Stevens' group that helped get the original Humane Slaughter Act enacted back in the 1950s, to force the US Department of Agriculture to enforce the Humane Slaughter Act. USDA's response blaming the complaining inspectors is a typical "pass the buck" excuse, I'm afraid. IBP blamed its workers for allowing animals to go through the lines without having been completely stunned before scalding and dismembering. But it is the management that requires line speeds of up to 400 cattle and 1000 or more hogs per hour, not the workers. Without the institutional support, there appears to be little that individuals can do except complain and be blamed for their efforts. Marlene Halverson Meat inspectors say USDA ignores Humane Slaughter Act WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Federal meat inspectors and animal rights groups Wednesday accused the U.S. Agriculture Department of allowing packers to slaughter cattle and hogs while still conscious, despite regulations mandating livestock be killed humanely. The coalition representing 6,700 meat inspectors sent a petition to Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman urging broader authority to enforce the Humane Slaughter Act (HSA). Under the act, all animals must be humanely handled and "stunned" unconscious prior to being hoisted up on the production line. "We are the people who are charged by Congress with enforcing HSA, but most of our inspectors have little to no access to those areas of the plants where animals are being handled and slaughtered," said Arthur Hughes, president of the National Joint Council of Food Inspection Locals. The most brutal of these violations, the meat inspectors said, were caused by ineffective stunning -- causing cattle to be dismembered and hogs to be scalded while still conscious. Chris Church, spokesman for USDA's Food Safety and Inspection Service, said they take violations of the Humane Slaughter Act "very seriously." "It is the meat inspectors responsibility to enforce these requirements," he said. "They have full authority to take any action necessary including stopping the slaughter lines." USDA officials said the department has bimonthly meetings with the union of meat inspectors and complaints over humane slaughter has never been discussed. Church said accusations in the petition were based primarily on complaints about an IBP Inc. beef plant in Wallula, Washington. IBP spokesman Gary Mickelson said the company disputes the meat inspectors' claims, pointing out that a recent state investigation on livestock mishandling at the Wallula plant resulted in no charges. IBP and the state of Washington announced in April a cooperative agreement that allows state officials to continuously verify the plant is properly handling livestock, Mickelson said. 18:12 06-13-01 Copyright 2001 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 14-JUN-2001 16:43:48.30 To: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=27Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen=27?=", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: nutrient deficiencies and increased activity Hi Birte How are things? =20 Can you be a bit more specific in what you mean by 'increased = activity'? What are the causal relationships, or is it just that correlations have = been found? Is the increased activity because the animals are seeking that nutrient in their environment? Perhaps with meat chickens it may be = related to liveweight and physical ability to move? Can you give us some more information? Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: Birte Lindstr=F8m Nielsen [SMTP:Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk] > Sent: Thursday, 14 June 2001 21:08 > To: 'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca' > Subject: nutrient deficiencies and increased activity >=20 > Dear all > Has anyone information (experimental or anecdotal) on increased = activity > levels associated with nutrient deficient diets? > I have found literature reporting increased activity with deficiency = of > calcium (chickens), sodium (chickens), omega-3 fatty acids (rhesus > monkeys), > vitamin B6 (rats/mice) and iron (humans). =20 > I am about to formulate feed for my experimental chickens (broilers), = and > in > the last experiment they were more active on a diet with a more = varied > composition, but also slightly lower mineral/vitamin concentration = than > control. I would like to replicate this, but at the same time have = more > of > a handle on the exact nutritional cause. >=20 > Any suggestions are welcome. > Regards > Birte=20 >=20 > __________________________________ > Birte Lindstr=F8m Nielsen > Senior Scientist > Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare > Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences > Research Centre Foulum > DK-8830 Tjele > Denmark >=20 > Phone: +45 8999 1373 > Fax: +45 8999 1500 > Email: birte.nielsen@agrsci.dk >=20 ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages=20 (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally=20 privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity=20 to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of=20 disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken=20 or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions=20 contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions=20 of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received=20 this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and=20 delete it from your computer system network. From: IN%"supereeyore@hotmail.com" "Eddie Fernandez" 14-JUN-2001 18:47:05.99 To: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: nutrient deficiencies and increased activity Birte, There's an interesting phenomena along these lines. Many anorexics engage in a high rate of exercise. Several researchers have tried to examine some aspects of this with basic animal research, which might provide some interesting and relevant references for you. The research falls under the heading, "activity anorexia", and I believe one of the main researchers examining this is Dr. David Pierce. Hope this helps... Eddie F... > >Dear all >Has anyone information (experimental or anecdotal) on increased activity >levels associated with nutrient deficient diets? >I have found literature reporting increased activity with deficiency of >calcium (chickens), sodium (chickens), omega-3 fatty acids (rhesus >monkeys), >vitamin B6 (rats/mice) and iron (humans). >I am about to formulate feed for my experimental chickens (broilers), and >in >the last experiment they were more active on a diet with a more varied >composition, but also slightly lower mineral/vitamin concentration than >control. I would like to replicate this, but at the same time have more of >a handle on the exact nutritional cause. > >Any suggestions are welcome. >Regards >Birte > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 14-JUN-2001 18:58:02.17 To: IN%"supereeyore@hotmail.com" "'Eddie Fernandez'", IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: nutrient deficiencies and increased activity Eddie and others Could not the high exercise rate be all part of the perceptions about 'body image' and the desire to achieve the perceived 'ideal appearance'? I presume that such self-awareness would apply only to humans and not other animals. Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: Eddie Fernandez [SMTP:supereeyore@hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, 15 June 2001 10:47 > To: Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Re: nutrient deficiencies and increased activity > > Birte, > There's an interesting phenomena along these lines. Many anorexics > engage in a high rate of exercise. Several researchers have tried to > examine some aspects of this with basic animal research, which might > provide > some interesting and relevant references for you. The research falls > under > the heading, "activity anorexia", and I believe one of the main > researchers > examining this is Dr. David Pierce. Hope this helps... > > Eddie F... > > > > > >Dear all > >Has anyone information (experimental or anecdotal) on increased activity > >levels associated with nutrient deficient diets? > >I have found literature reporting increased activity with deficiency of > >calcium (chickens), sodium (chickens), omega-3 fatty acids (rhesus > >monkeys), > >vitamin B6 (rats/mice) and iron (humans). > >I am about to formulate feed for my experimental chickens (broilers), and > > >in > >the last experiment they were more active on a diet with a more varied > >composition, but also slightly lower mineral/vitamin concentration than > >control. I would like to replicate this, but at the same time have more > of > >a handle on the exact nutritional cause. > > > >Any suggestions are welcome. > >Regards > >Birte > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. From: IN%"supereeyore@hotmail.com" "Eddie Fernandez" 14-JUN-2001 19:03:55.46 To: IN%"margory@dnai.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: RE:e-collars Margory and all, Many persons simply use the term "punishment" in the behavioral sense, meaning a stimulus functioning as a consequence that leads to a decrease in the rate of the response or similar responses. Used this way, I think there's no doubt that the intent of an e-collar is to function as a punisher, and possibly the escape from that aversive stimulus to function as negative reinforcement. Now, as to the question of whether to overtly use punishment in such a way as an e-collar, this is an ethical (and political) question. I think there's a few things many persons don't understand. First is that everyone ends up using punishment. Even stimuli that function as s-deltas for extinction have been shown to potentially function as punishers. Also, it's very true that one can seriously screw up an animal through the use of punishment. But the same is also true of reinforcement. Often, these are instances of bad training techniques, not the consequences used themselves. I'm in no way supporting the use of e-collars. I avoid using as much punishment and negative reinforcement procedures in all my training techniques, and have yet to run into some response that could not be easily and successfully trained with these "positive" methods. But if we're going to debate these methods, let's at least rely upon factual arguments. Otherwise, all we're doing is arguing opinions, and often erroneous ones... Eddie F... >I think also some of yours reflects not current (no word play intended;-) >understanding and practices with the collar. Yours and another I found >here >still reflect use of collar and _punishment_ -- not correction or training. >These are not correct uses and would happen with anything. >margory cohen > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From: IN%"supereeyore@hotmail.com" "Eddie Fernandez" 14-JUN-2001 19:28:45.82 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: nutrient deficiencies and increased activity Carol, If I knew what "self-awareness" was, I'd probably agree. :) Unfortunately, humans have a long history of blaming their own behaviors on unobservable constructs. For an interesting approach to this whole 'self-awarness' thing in animals, I suggest checking out Dr. Skinner and Dr. Epstein's Columban Simulations... Eddie F... >Eddie and others >Could not the high exercise rate be all part of the perceptions about 'body >image' and the desire to achieve the perceived 'ideal appearance'? I >presume that such self-awareness would apply only to humans and not other >animals. >Carol _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen?=" 15-JUN-2001 03:39:56.28 To: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "'Petherick, Carol (TBC)'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: nutrient deficiencies and increased activity Dear Carol and all To briefly clarify.... I examined the use of an outdoor area by broilers of two strains, a = fast- and a slower growing strain. I fed them one of two diets: One diet with = few ingredients and medium energy content (Diet A), and another with many ingredients and low energy content (Diet B). The results were: 1) Chickens from the slower growing strain used the outdoor area more = than the fast-growing birds 2) Chickens on diet A used the outdoor area more than chickens on diet = B, irrespective of strain. =20 I assume that the increased use of the outdoor area was related to = seeking out some nutrient(s), as you also suggest. My problem is, that the two = diets probably differed in more than one aspect, and I am now seeking guesses = as to which diet component (mineral, vitamin, nutrient) is most likely to = have caused the differences observed. Hope this helps... =20 Birte =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Petherick, Carol (TBC) [mailto:PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au] > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 12:43 AM > To: 'Birte Lindstr=F8m Nielsen'; 'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca' > Subject: RE: nutrient deficiencies and increased activity =20 Hi Birte How are things? =20 Can you be a bit more specific in what you mean by 'increased = activity'? What are the causal relationships, or is it just that correlations have = been found? Is the increased activity because the animals are seeking that nutrient in their environment? Perhaps with meat chickens it may be = related to liveweight and physical ability to move? Can you give us some more information? Carol From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 15-JUN-2001 04:24:29.72 To: IN%"supereeyore@hotmail.com" "Eddie Fernandez", IN%"margory@dnai.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Pleasure and Punishment I wonder if there is a unifying thread running through all of the recent posts? We have touched on electroshock and pain. Is this so very far from electroconvulsive therapy, epilepsy and the addictive effects of endorphin release. Are we so far from the issues of pain, analgesia, flagellation, Sadism, and the reflex numbing of pugilism, flogging and torture? Is the plight of an anorexic sufferer so very far from the desperate perturbations of opioid chemistry in starvation, or religious ritual privations? Can we remove considerations of punishment so very far from the experience of disciplined eating, deferred gratification, self denial and the hedonic enhancements of a balanced life. If happiness is contingent upon the contrasts of pain and pleasure within sensible limits, might we learn profitable lessons from the extremes of brutal trespass on the organism! Should we be amazed that animals want to play, run, explore and indulge in the sing dancing routines of self gratification? Perhaps a certain level of electric shock is no more than sharply focussed touch therapy. Perhaps it is the smallest step towards Torquemada or Stockholm syndrome? Will pain deter me from the gymnasium or does it in part explain a curious feeling that I would like to so some more? I have always found this group quite addictive. You wouldn't bore me into a cure now - would you? Robin Walker. -----Original Message----- From: Eddie Fernandez [mailto:supereeyore@hotmail.com] Sent: 15 June 2001 02:04 To: margory@dnai.com; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: RE:e-collars Margory and all, Many persons simply use the term "punishment" in the behavioral sense, meaning a stimulus functioning as a consequence that leads to a decrease in the rate of the response or similar responses. Used this way, I think there's no doubt that the intent of an e-collar is to function as a punisher, and possibly the escape from that aversive stimulus to function as negative reinforcement. Now, as to the question of whether to overtly use punishment in such a way as an e-collar, this is an ethical (and political) question. I think there's a few things many persons don't understand. First is that everyone ends up using punishment. Even stimuli that function as s-deltas for extinction have been shown to potentially function as punishers. Also, it's very true that one can seriously screw up an animal through the use of punishment. But the same is also true of reinforcement. Often, these are instances of bad training techniques, not the consequences used themselves. I'm in no way supporting the use of e-collars. I avoid using as much punishment and negative reinforcement procedures in all my training techniques, and have yet to run into some response that could not be easily and successfully trained with these "positive" methods. But if we're going to debate these methods, let's at least rely upon factual arguments. Otherwise, all we're doing is arguing opinions, and often erroneous ones... Eddie F... >I think also some of yours reflects not current (no word play intended;-) >understanding and practices with the collar. Yours and another I found >here >still reflect use of collar and _punishment_ -- not correction or training. >These are not correct uses and would happen with anything. >margory cohen > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From: IN%"Jon.Day@adas.co.uk" "Jon Day" 15-JUN-2001 05:03:21.20 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Nutrient deficiencies and increased activity Birte, It is difficult to interpret your results without reference to the composition of the diets. You state that Diet A has 'few ingredients' and a medium energy content, and Diet B has 'many ingredients' and a low energy content. We don't know whether these diets will allow birds to meet their requirements for nutrients. For example does medium energy meet requirements and low energy not? Were the diets formulated with 'few ingredients' to impose a specific restriction? If we were to assume that Diet A met an individual bird's requirement for energy and Diet B restricted energy intake then we would expect the birds fed Diet B to be more 'active'. However, it was the birds fed Diet A which were more active. Therefore, as you imply, the complexity of the diet may have imposed the effect. Motivational theory would suggest that an individual bird would behave (forage) in such a manner to obtain the nutrient which was first limiting in its diet. This could be one way to start to interrogate your dataset. The result I find interesting is that the slower growing strain used the outdoor area more than the faster growing strain. A explanation invoking feeding motivation appears unsuitable here as it would suggest that a faster growing strain had a higher requirement for nutrients and would be more feeding motivated (and more 'active'). I guess you may expect a statistical interaction between strain and diet. As this was not present ( and in the absence of information concerning diets) it may be necessary to question what other uses the outdoor area may have. For example, are there any reasons why a slow growing strain may be more explorative than faster growing strains? Fun data! Jon. _______________________________ Dr. Jon E. L. Day ADAS Terrington Terrington St. Clement Kings Lynn Norfolk PE34 4PW Direct line: +44 (0)1553 825891 Secretary : +44 (0)1553 828621 Fax: +44 (0)1553 827229 e_mail: Jon.Day@adas.co.uk ******************************************************************************* The information transmitted is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by parties other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Opinions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of ADAS are neither given nor endorsed by it. For more information on ADAS, visit our website at http://www.adas.co.uk. ******************************************************************************* From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 15-JUN-2001 06:57:13.57 To: IN%"esvce@yahoogroups.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology", IN%"apbc4_um@ftech.net" "APBC4_um" CC: Subj: Look out for virus Dear all, I have just received a virus warning. The virus seems to be passed in the same way as the 'I Love You' virus. The virus is an attachment called OEMRNCE. The exact letters may not be these, my informant was understanderbly preoccupied with deleting it rather than checking the name. Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 15-JUN-2001 08:12:23.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: humane slaughter act correction Hello, in my posting on humane slaughter I referred to the 1950s Humane Slaughter Act in the US and made a mistake in the sentence. It should not state that the orginal Humane Slaughter Act in the 1950s forced USDA to enforce the Humane Slaughter Act.  The original Humane Slaughter Act in the 1950s was the first law on the subject. Marlene Halverson