From: IN%"derek.haley@usask.ca" 31-MAY-2004 17:24:02.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Link to the yawning dogs video of yawning dogs Dear All, A link to the video clip of the yawning dogs can be found here: http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/yawningdogs.html The clip should play with the (free) QuickTime software. (I know Jackie had trouble with this though and others may have the same problem, in which case I apologise in advance. If you have expertise about making this sort of thing work more straightforward, please let me know >I have not seen the video -- as my computer says that the download time is >just under four hours :-( > >But I can see no problem with teaching a dog to 'apparently' yawn on >cue. Whether or not this would be a 'real' yawn is debatable. Bul, >people can fake a yawn, and even this fake yawn will tend to make other >people start to yawn. So that IF yawning does calm other dogs, then this >fake yawn could work equally well > >The hard part would be getting the yawn initially to reward, without >stressing the dog. Free-shaping of random behaviour might be the way to >go. I know my father used to tell, with delight, of his dog when he was a >child, who would yawn with vocalisations to get attention. This had come >about as the family used to laugh at him when he yawned naturally. > >Jenny Haskins >Family Dog Training >Coffs Harbour, Australia From: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "Pat Robards" 2-JUN-2004 22:33:19.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue From: E. Wayne Johnson Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 1:07 PM Subject: Re: Yawning on Cue You wrote: >>>I saw the yawn on the tape and the dogs display both a partial yawn and a full-blown yawn. I had never heard that you can't teach dogs to yawn, but I would say that its just as well that I was not taught that yawnable erratum, since these dogs do indeed yawn on command.<<< As a dog trainer I need to disagree that these dogs yawn on command. A good percentage of it was offered behaviour, not cued for, she signalled, the adult dog did some signalling but the pup went through a repertoire of common displacement behaviours until rewarded. Lip licking, sneezing, head turning, body shaking, ear positioning, paddling of feet, appeasement gestures of raising the paw and when it eventually yawned, was paid. The dogs need to get down to zero latency and an 80% success rate in ten trials for me to accept the it , the yawning on cue was not consistent enough to say it 'was on cue' if you know what I mean. I cannot ignore the displacement behaviour, a dog trainer worth their salt using positive reinforcement would not what this when training an animal and if so, halts the trial. Well.... I do and I'd not work two animals together until the behaviour *was on cue*, maybe the trainer did this for the film? Over to you John, I cannot find the post in the archives. tia Pat Robards (Australia http://www.k9events.com/ From: IN%"D.Lexer@gmx.at" "Daniela Lexer" 4-JUN-2004 02:05:31.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: maximum running speed of Bos taurus Dear all, does someone know the maximum running speed of Bos taurus and Ovis aries or does have relevant literature concerning this topic? Thanks for your help! Best regards Daniela Lexer -- "Sie haben neue Mails!" - Die GMX Toolbar informiert Sie beim Surfen! Jetzt aktivieren unter http://www.gmx.net/info From: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "Pat Robards" 7-JUN-2004 03:08:07.22 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Subj: Yawning on Cue From: IN%"iddoodles@qwest.net" "Paula & The Pack" 26-MAY-2004 08:44:25.18 Subj: Yawning on Cue Paula wrote in part: While the behaviour is cute, I hesitate to take away a communication tool that the dog should be able to understand and rely on. P DeVaney Hi Paula, I spoke to Turid Rugaas about putting Calming Signals on cue several years ago, she replied it wouldn't be the same for the very same reasons you give, you are taking away a communication tool. Presented on the video clip is an example of "cued" behaviour.The longest latency period was 17seconds. I felt the small "mouth opens" extrapolated into a yawn, there was no evidence of a discriminative stimulus used as Jackie reinforced off cue yawns from the male dog whilst working the female. My Lindsay books are not in front of me so I cannot quote a reference for the list, sorry, however the late and great Marian Breland Bailey taught me the following: A behaviour is not on cue until...... Fluent on cue -- (reliable) Latency is Short ( when the cue is given, the animal emits the behaviour promptly). The behaviour is quickly executed. Its duration is as short as possible for what is required. The behaviour is correctly given each time the cue is given. The behaviour can occur in any desired location, without regard for distractions. Perhaps Martin Seligman is correct, "That a dog can not learn to yawn on cue was presented as such a contraprepared learning task"..... as above criteria has not been met as yet, that a dog will not yawn in the *absence of the cue*. Pat Robards (Australia) http://www.k9events.com/ From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 9-JUN-2004 00:17:25.03 To: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" "'E. Wayne Johnson'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue Thanks Wayne. I shall write it up now to publish, including the method, which in itself is controversial because it involved observational = learning which is unproven in adult dogs. The next step is to work out what = changes need to be made to preparedness theory. Presently I favour scrapping psychological preparedness, and would appreciate input from anyone interested in this debate.=20 Regards, Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: E. Wayne Johnson [mailto:ewj@uiuc.edu]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 1:07 PM To: Jenny Haskins; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Yawning on Cue I saw the yawn on the tape and the dogs display both a partial yawn and = a=20 full-blown yawn.=A0 I had never heard that you can't teach dogs to yawn, but I would say that its just as well that I was not taught that = yawnable erratum,=20 since these dogs do indeed yawn on command. At 06:16 PM 6/2/2004, Jenny Haskins wrote: =A0 I have not seen the video -- as my computer says that the download time = is just under four hours :-( =A0 But I can see no problem with teaching a dog to 'apparently' yawn on = cue.=A0 Whether or not this would be a 'real' yawn is debatable.=A0 Bul, people = can fake a yawn, and even this fake yawn will tend to make other people = start to yawn.=A0 So that IF yawning does calm other dogs, then this fake yawn = could work equally well =A0 The hard part would be getting the yawn initially to reward, without stressing the dog.=A0 Free-shaping of random behaviour might be the way = to go.=A0 I know my father used to tell, with delight, of his dog when he = was a child, who would yawn with vocalisations to get attention.=A0 This had = come about as the family used to laugh at him when he yawned naturally. =A0 Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 9-JUN-2004 00:36:03.35 To: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "'Pat Robards'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Subj: Yawning on Cue You are describing a very well taught behaviour, such reliability and generalising takes months to achieve at best. I emphasise that my dogs = had been learning the new behaviour of yawning for only 3 weeks, yet clearly show conscious control over yawning. I was in the process of putting = yawning on a hand cue on the video, rather than environmental and other cues. = The other dog, Habari, which I referred to, has learned yawning on cue in a similar but different manner to my dogs. All dogs are different. The = whole point is that my dogs and Habari show that they can do it on cue, not = that they can do it picture perfectly. It is the principle that is important, = not that it must be performed perfectly according to your narrow criteria. = Your criteria would rule out many learned behaviours. My female staffy, = Blade, is very reliable at flyball. If I ask her to make too many runs within a = short space of time, she will start doing it incorrectly. This is not evidence = of her lack of learning but evidence of her changing motivational status. = Yet she is said to have learned the sport of flyball. Yawning is similar. = Ask for too many in a row and the dogs do it less well. They tire quickly.=20 And if you think yawn training it is "taking away a behaviour tool" why = do we teach dogs anything at all?=20 Regards, Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Pat Robards [mailto:probards@ozemail.com.au]=20 Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 7:08 PM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Subj: Yawning on Cue From: IN%"iddoodles@qwest.net"=A0 "Paula & The Pack" 26-MAY-2004 = 08:44:25.18 Subj: Yawning on Cue Paula wrote in part: While the behaviour is cute, I hesitate to take away a communication = tool that the dog should be able to understand and rely on. P DeVaney =A0 Hi Paula,=20 =A0 I spoke to Turid Rugaas about putting Calming Signals on cue several = years ago, she replied=A0it wouldn't be the same=A0for the very same reasons you = give, you=20 are taking away=A0 a communication tool. =A0 Presented=A0=A0on the=A0video clip=A0 is an example of=A0 "cued" = behaviour.The longest=A0latency=20 period was=A0 17seconds. I felt=A0 the =A0small "mouth opens" = =A0extrapolated=A0=A0=A0into a yawn,=A0 there was no evidence of a=A0 discriminative stimulus used=A0 as=A0 Jackie=A0reinforced=A0 off=20 cue yawns from the male dog whilst working the female.=20 My Lindsay books are not in front of me=A0=A0so I cannot quote a = reference for the list, sorry,=A0=20 however =A0the late and =A0great Marian Breland Bailey=A0 taught me the following:=A0 =A0 A behaviour is not on cue until...... Fluent on cue --=A0(reliable) Latency=A0is Short=A0( when the cue is given, the animal emits the = behaviour promptly). The=A0behaviour is quickly executed. Its=A0duration is as short as possible for what is required. The behaviour is correctly=A0given each time the cue is given. The behaviour can occur in any desired location, without regard for distractions.=A0=20 =A0 Perhaps=A0Martin Seligman is correct, "That a dog can not learn to yawn = on cue was presented as such a contraprepared learning task".....=A0=A0 as=A0 = above criteria=A0=A0 has not been met as yet,=A0that a=A0 dog will not=A0 yawn in the = *absence of the cue*.=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 Pat Robards (Australia) http://www.k9events.com/ From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 9-JUN-2004 01:02:14.11 To: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "'Pat Robards'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue Why do you think the behaviour was =93offered=94 so many times in a row? = Answer: because it has been rewarded and trained for!! It was no accident. The = dogs were in process of learning to put their yawns to a hand cue, instead of other cues which shall be discussed when I write my paper. If I was a = good statistician, I would compare the base level occurrence of yawning = behaviour (negligible) and calculate the probability that it could occur so many = times per unit of time per chance; of course that probability would be = monstrously low.=20 There can be no doubt; my dogs clearly demonstrate conscious control of yawning. IT shall be some time before they can do it anywhere anytime; = the older dog probably never will. He is a rescue dog and is generally not a good learner. It takes months to train any dog to do any command = anywhere anytime, and even reliable dogs still let you down when the pressure is = on eg in front of a TV camera. Reliability is not required to disprove Seligmans original challenge.=20 Experienced dog trainers know how dogs learn. My dogs are displaying = classic canine learning process. All newly learned behaviours go through similar phases ie a general increase in the baseline level of the behaviour; = doing the behaviour randomly to elicit reward; initially, the behaviour is = learned and only performed in a specific place and time, until generalization eventually occurs.=20 As for doing 10 yawns in a row: they do several in a row, but 10 is too = many to expect of such a low probability behaviour (see Premack). Blade would = not do 10 runs of flyball in a row either, even though she is fit enough. By = the way she is 3-4 years old and hardly a puppy anymore.=20 And as for training dogs together: Ian Dunbar recommends "playing dogs = off" against conspecifics in training. There are also other reasons for = training them together which shall be discussed in my upcoming paper.=20 I appreciate the feedback, Regards, Jackie PErkins=20 -----Original Message----- From: Pat Robards [mailto:probards@ozemail.com.au]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:33 PM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Yawning on Cue From: E. Wayne Johnson=20 Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 1:07 PM Subject: Re: Yawning on Cue You wrote: >>>I saw the yawn on the tape and the dogs display both a partial yawn = and a full-blown yawn.=A0 I had never heard that you can't teach dogs to yawn, but I would say that its just as well that I was not taught that = yawnable erratum,=20 since these dogs do indeed yawn on command.<<< As a dog trainer I need to disagree that these dogs yawn on command.=A0 A good percentage of it=A0 was offered behaviour, not cued for,=A0she = signalled, the adult dog did some signalling but the pup went=A0 through=A0 a = repertoire of common displacement behaviours until rewarded.=A0 Lip licking, sneezing, = head turning, body shaking,=A0ear positioning, =A0paddling=A0 of = feet,=A0 appeasement=20 gestures of raising the paw=A0 and when it eventually=A0yawned, was = paid. =A0=A0 The dogs need to get down to=A0zero latency =A0and an=A0 =A080% success = rate=20 in ten trials=A0 for me to accept the it ,=A0 the yawning on=A0 cue was = not=20 consistent=A0 enough to say it 'was on cue' if you know=A0 what I mean.=20 I=A0 cannot ignore the displacement behaviour,=A0a=A0dog trainer worth = their salt=20 using positive reinforcement would not what this=A0when training an = animal=20 and if so, halts the trial.=A0 Well....=A0 =A0I=A0 do=A0 and=A0 =A0I'd = not=A0work =A0two=20 animals=A0 =A0together until=A0 the behaviour *was on cue*,=A0maybe the = trainer=A0did=20 this=A0 for the film? =A0Over to you John, I cannot find the post in the archives. =A0 tia Pat Robards (Australia http://www.k9events.com/ From: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?=" 9-JUN-2004 03:25:54.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue Dear All, The discussion surrounding the posting of a video of a dog apparently yawning to a cue has used words such as 'experiment' and 'analyse'. Before we attribute too much scientific respectability to this video, although this respectability might ultimately be deserved, let's remind ourselves of what is required in a 'scientific' study. Could we please be informed of - 1) What was the (null) hypothesis? 2) What were the methods used? 3) What was the control treatment? 4) How repeatable was the experiment? 5) What statistical analyses were used? All these will be required by any peer-reviewed animal behaviour journal. ===== ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html From: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "Pat Robards" 9-JUN-2004 07:56:40.99 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue From: "Geiger" Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:01 PM <>> Your choice of SD needs to be consistent, a sloppy cue is the equivilent of developing a speech impediment... the more severe the impediment, the more difficult the words are to understand. When animals have difficulty understanding, they will often try to guess what is meant, it was interesting to note that the 'offerings' were not *operant* learning and sometimes 'offered behaviour' is confused with guessing. You wrote: ><>> Regards, Jackie Perkins My reply: Ummm... did I put a time limit on behaviour? I pointed out consistency in training, a certain pecentage of successful trials before you up the ante again, My tight criteria was learnt from the Late Marian Breland Bailey, one of Skinner's students, I think he got it right. <>. Regards Pat Robards (Australia) http://www.k9events.com/ From: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "Pat Robards" 9-JUN-2004 07:56:43.96 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue From: "Geiger" Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:01 PM <<>> Your choice of SD perhaps needs to be more consistent, a sloppy cue is the equivilent of developing a speech impediment... the more severe the impediment, the more difficult the words are to understand. When animals have difficulty understanding, they will often try to guess what is meant, it was interesting to note that the 'offerings' did not look like operant learning which is why I feel the small "mouth opens" extrapolate into a yawn. You wrote: <<>> Regards, Jackie Perkins My reply: Ummm... did I put a time limit on behaviour? I pointed out consistency in training, a certain pecentage of successful trials before you up the ante again. You can take all the time you want, this is clicker trainers up the criteria, asking for an 80% success rate a low latency using continuous (differential) reinforcement and of course in successive aproximations. I didn't say yawning is taking away a behaviour tool, Turid Rugaas did, (I'm not about to dip my toe into the water as I am only a humble dog trainer who knows her craft as undoubtably you yours). I would wonder though after Turid's remark - and you yours..... Reliability is not required to disprove Seligmans original challenge. How correct is your interpretation of your dogs yawn..... and what does a yawn convey? tia and Regards Pat Robards (Australia http://www.k9events.com/ From: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?=" 9-JUN-2004 08:10:01.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dogs yawning Dear All, The discussion surrounding the posting of a video of a dog apparently yawning to a cue has used words such as 'experiment' and 'analyse'. Before we attribute too much scientific respectability to this video, although this respectability might ultimately be deserved, let's remind ourselves of what is required in a 'scientific' study. Could we please be informed of - 1) What was the (null) hypothesis? 2) What were the methods used? 3) What was the control treatment? 4) How repeatable was the experiment? 5) What statistical analyses were used? All these will be required by any peer-reviewed animal behaviour journal. From: IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" "E. Wayne Johnson" 9-JUN-2004 09:36:17.13 To: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "Laika the astronaut", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs yawning "Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk." -Henry David Thoreau * "Today we preach that science is not science unless it is quantitative. We substitute correlation for causal studies, and physical equations for organic reasoning. Measurements and equations are supposed to sharpen thinking, but...they often tend to make the thinking non-causal and fuzzy. They tend to become the object of scientific manipulation instead of auxiliary test of crucial inferences. Many - perhaps most - of the great issues of science are qualitative, not quantitative, even in physics and chemistry. Equations and measurements are useful when and only when they are related to proof; but proof or disproof comes first and in is in fact strongest when it is absolutely convincing without any quantitative measurement. Or to say it another way, you can catch phenomena in a logical box or in a mathematical box. The logical box is coarse but strong. The mathematical box is fine grained but flimsy. The mathematical box is a beautiful way of wrapping up a problem, but it will not hold the phenomena unless they have been caught in a logical box to begin with. " [Platt, J. R. (1964) Science 146:351, quoted in Weinberg, Gerald M. (1975) "Introduction to General Systems Thinking". John Wiley and Sons, New York. page 1.] At 09:09 AM 6/9/2004, Laika the astronaut wrote: >Dear All, > >The discussion surrounding the posting of a video of a >dog apparently yawning to a cue has used words such as >'experiment' and 'analyse'. Before we attribute too >much scientific respectability to this video, although >this respectability might ultimately be deserved, >let's remind ourselves of what is required in a >'scientific' study. Could we please be informed of - > >1) What was the (null) hypothesis? >2) What were the methods used? >3) What was the control treatment? >4) How repeatable was the experiment? >5) What statistical analyses were used? > >All these will be required by any peer-reviewed animal >behaviour journal. > > > > > > ===== > > > > > > > >===== > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________ >Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" >your friends today! Download Messenger Now >http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 9-JUN-2004 09:59:24.40 To: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "Laika the astronaut" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Dogs yawning Hi, True if you publish in an experimental animal psychology journal (e.g., Journal of Comparative Psychology), not necessarily so if you publish in a journal where ethologists dominate (e.g., Ethology, Animal Behaviour, etc.). This is the old distinction between inductive (e.g., ethology, astronomy, paleontology, often human neuropsychology or developmental psychology) vs. hypothetico-deductive sciences (most of experimental biology, psychology, ethology, etc.). I am basically saying that purely "observational" and "descriptive" studies can be published as long as the author is careful in the interpretations and discussion of the observational data (a common challenge in the "inductive" sciences mentioned above). Saying or suggesting that good science is only hypothetic-deductive alienates a number of very respectful fields of research (again, see above), and we should remember that any good science uses both approaches, the full loop (induction-deduction-induction-deduction, etc.). Let's not forget that most phenomenon experimented on were first "observed" and often "systematically observed" (e.g., most of the excellent literature of my field, ethology) and then were brought to the laboratory (when possible...) for "confirmation". The success of experimental ethology is a good example. Field data and observations brought to the laboratory. The main critic of current experimental animal psychology is the lack of ecological validity. The main critic of classical ethology research is the lack of control on variables. Let's face it, both approaches have major shortcomings and they are only complementary. I shall say that I have a MSc in experimental psychology and a Ph.D. in ethology, so I am obviously favouring a dual, complementary approach (field-lab-field-lab, etc.), otherwise I believe you are very likely to miss something. I believe if we decide that the yawning observed is of theoretical interest, the current observations could be published. It may be better to move to a more experimental approach first (more dogs to increase the "n", more breeds [suggested previously], contexts, etc). It would certainly increase the number of receptive journals and chances of publications. S. Gadbois --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Ethology & behavioural endocrinology lab Psychology/Neuroscience Dalhousie University Halifax, NS Canada, B3H 4J1 www.gadbois.org/academic On 9-Jun-04, at 11:09 AM, Laika the astronaut wrote: > > > > > Dear All, > > The discussion surrounding the posting of a video of a > dog apparently yawning to a cue has used words such as > 'experiment' and 'analyse'. Before we attribute too > much scientific respectability to this video, although > this respectability might ultimately be deserved, > let's remind ourselves of what is required in a > 'scientific' study. Could we please be informed of - > > 1) What was the (null) hypothesis? > 2) What were the methods used? > 3) What was the control treatment? > 4) How repeatable was the experiment? > 5) What statistical analyses were used? > > All these will be required by any peer-reviewed animal > behaviour journal. > > > > > > ===== > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" > your friends today! Download Messenger Now > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html > From: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?=" 9-JUN-2004 11:36:18.91 To: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Dogs yawning Simon, You raise some good points. Let's take Animal Behaviour as the exemplary journal. 1) In studies where it is claimed the behaviour of an animal is being changed (i.e. the dog is yawning to a cue) the experiment will have been devised to support or reject a hypothesis (i.e. this animal's behaviour is different). I agree the hypothesis is sometimes not formally stated in articles in Animal Behaviour, but it is usually implicit in the study and usually contained in the Introduction. I also agree that in, e.g. field studies, this is not hypothesis-driven research, however, I think 'proving someone wrong' as in the case of the yawning dog, IS hypothesis-driven. 2) The Methods section must be clearly written such that a study can be repeated in another laboratory/study area, etc. Animal Behaviour goes to great lengths to ensure this happens. 3) Again if we are saying there has been a change in behaviour, we must have a control treatment to compare with. In this case, it could be that the dog is its own control, or it could be dogs which have not been trained in the way the yawning dog has. I believe referees of Animal Behaviour would require a suitable control for this study, although again, field-studies would not. 4) Repeatability is contained within the methods and the statistical analysis. A study such as this would require repeatability or we could easily end up with a 'Clever Hans' syndrome. 5) Studies such as this must have statistics. Otherwise, how do we know that the dog has not performed this behaviour all its life and that its performance has nothing to do with the training. Even if the trainer were to say 'Well, he didn't do it before the training', that would be informal use of statistics. I'd be interested to know of any papers in Animal Behaviour that do not give statistics of one sort or another (why do I feel I am setting myself up to be shot down in flames here!) I agree with you about the benefits of the inductionist, observational and descriptive approaches to science. Perhaps my concern here is about the strength of comments and the rapidity with which sweeping conclusions are being made on such a small sample size and with little information. Respectfully yours, > > Dear All, > > > > The discussion surrounding the posting of a video > of a > > dog apparently yawning to a cue has used words > such as > > 'experiment' and 'analyse'. Before we attribute > too > > much scientific respectability to this video, > although > > this respectability might ultimately be deserved, > > let's remind ourselves of what is required in a > > 'scientific' study. Could we please be informed > of - > > > > 1) What was the (null) hypothesis? > > 2) What were the methods used? > > 3) What was the control treatment? > > 4) How repeatable was the experiment? > > 5) What statistical analyses were used? > > > > All these will be required by any peer-reviewed > animal > > behaviour journal. > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" > > your friends today! Download Messenger Now > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html > > > ===== ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html From: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" "Heather" 9-JUN-2004 11:55:26.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs yawning //the need for field work Hi, my interjection here is not about dog yawning but domestic rabbits. I just wanted to say that I WISH that there were more "inductive" "ethological" "natural history" studies done on the rabbit. Maybe then we wouldn't have major tomes like "Rabbit Production" making a statement that cecals are produced mainly during nighttime. Maybe in fryer weight (1-3 mo) rabbits fed only pellets during the daytime this is true but in the natural world it is not; and in the pet world where you want your rabbit to live to be 12 years old it is definitely not a good thing to feed them always in the daytime. We desperately need good observational studies done on O. cuniculus. There are many MANY wildlife/pop. Biology; reproductive science; ethological-reproductive studies done. Trying to find scientific accounts following one rabbit warren of 2-12 individuals through their lifespan is near impossible (well, it is impossible) (and the only wild 100 year old warrens in the USA with a 30 yr documented history of same-tunnel-use where this is best done are being destroyed) OR trying to find ANY work where someone has done remote camera observation of tunnel interactions during the daytime is simply impossible. NO one has done it. Yet we rely on these same animals for medical data when we know nothing about them (try to find articles on the side-brushing-tunnel reflex); and we have geneticist(s) raising hairless ones claiming that not having hair does not hurt a rabbit (when we have NO ethological data on the importance of fur for these very social animals who groom more times a day than cats). So maybe statistical studies with controlled experiments in a lab are the rage but in the last 30-40 years no one has collected this information to my knowledge on the rabbit anywhere in the world. And, in Iberia, where they are scrambling to try to preserve the endangered Iberian Lynx -- they need to repopulate with O.cuniculus (destroyed by viruses) -- and no one has this information. H.m. Simon, You raise some good points. Let's take Animal Behaviour as the exemplary journal. From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 9-JUN-2004 18:25:22.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue "Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk." -Henry David Thoreau On the other hand, we cannot generalise from finding a trout in the milk. Circumstantial evidence, anecdotal evidence and results of poorly designed experiments can be very useful, and indicate possible causes, reasons or predictions. The proof needs well constructed repeatable experiments and/or surveys, and preferably similar results from differently constructed experiments or surveys. On the other hand, I'm sure that dogs can be taught to fake a yawn on cue. I'll also take a lot of convincing before I believe that a dog can give a 'real' yawn on cue. I can fake a yawn easily -- but it feels so very different to a real yawn. Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 9-JUN-2004 21:27:41.25 To: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "'Jenny Haskins'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue For defeating Seligman=92s bold assertion that a dog could not yawn on = cue, a fake yawn is all that is needed. Seligman lacked =93proof=94 but = psychological preparedness is still touted to this day; can you believe it! I can not. = It is time to put it to bed.=20 Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Jenny Haskins [mailto:jhaskins@tpg.com.au]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 10:31 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Yawning on Cue "Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk." -Henry David Thoreau On the other hand, we cannot generalise from finding a trout in the = milk. =A0 Circumstantial evidence, anecdotal evidence and results of poorly = designed experiments can be very useful, and indicate possible causes, reasons or predictions.=A0 The proof needs well constructed repeatable experiments = and/or surveys, and preferably similar results from differently constructed experiments or surveys. =A0 On the other hand, I'm sure that dogs can be taught to fake a yawn on = cue.=A0 I'll also take a lot of convincing before=A0I believe that a dog can = give a 'real' yawn on cue.=A0 I can fake a yawn easily -- but it feels so very different to a real yawn. =A0 Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia =A0 From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 9-JUN-2004 21:37:49.43 To: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "'Pat Robards'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue I do not accept your overly tight definition of learning. Can any dog urinate 10 times in a row on cue?? And as for my cue; well I had to = invent one because no one has done this before, so PLEASE cut me some slack. = Why not just give me the credit I deserve? You can not tutor me on this, = because you have not done it. Having said that I do not profess to be a dog = trainer, and I am sure that a good pro trainer would make fewer technical errors = than I; it is a good thing I am working with such a forgiving species. = Whatever happened to all of that R+ that is so fashionable? Spent it all on the animals and have none left over for fellow humans perhaps?=20 Jackie PErkins -----Original Message----- From: Pat Robards [mailto:probards@ozemail.com.au]=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 11:55 PM To: Geiger; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Yawning on Cue From: "Geiger" Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:01 PM <>> Your choice of SD=A0 needs to be consistent,=A0 =A0a sloppy cue is the equivilent of developing a speech=A0 impediment...=A0 the more severe the impediment, the more difficult=A0 the words are to understand. When animals have difficulty understanding,=A0 they will often try to guess what is meant, it was interesting to note that the 'offerings' were not *operant* learning and sometimes 'offered behaviour'=20 is confused with guessing. =A0 You wrote: ><>> Regards, Jackie Perkins =A0 My reply: Ummm...=A0=A0=A0 did I put a=A0 time limit on behaviour?=A0=A0=A0 I = pointed out consistency in training, a certain pecentage of successful trials before you up the ante again,=A0 =A0 My tight criteria was learnt from=20 the Late Marian Breland Bailey, one of Skinner's students, I=20 think he got it right. <>. =A0 Regards Pat Robards (Australia) http://www.k9events.com/ From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 9-JUN-2004 21:58:27.02 To: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "'Laika the astronaut'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dogs yawning These questions can be answered and will be. I would have liked Seligman to have had the same expectation however when he proposed the theory which I am discrediting. Also, remember that it is a sneak preview offered to all of my applied ethology colleagues. How fully developed it shall become before publication is attempted, I do not yet know. It is important just to share the information so that perhaps others employed as academics can work on it. One more remark; I have read MANY journal articles lately. It seems to me that the requirements for publication in the field of animal behaviour (psychology journals excepted) are flimsy, and perhaps politically correct criteria are more important than rigour. I have formed the impression that I may have found myself in the lions den of political correctness. PC at the expense of scientific honesty must be endemic for such flimsy (but politically correct) articles to have made publication. Because I am not necessarily politically correct (I am a scientist), I am unlikely to have papers on certain topics published, no matter how rigourous they are, if the findings are politically incorrect. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Laika the astronaut [mailto:laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 12:10 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Dogs yawning Dear All, The discussion surrounding the posting of a video of a dog apparently yawning to a cue has used words such as 'experiment' and 'analyse'. Before we attribute too much scientific respectability to this video, although this respectability might ultimately be deserved, let's remind ourselves of what is required in a 'scientific' study. Could we please be informed of - 1) What was the (null) hypothesis? 2) What were the methods used? 3) What was the control treatment? 4) How repeatable was the experiment? 5) What statistical analyses were used? All these will be required by any peer-reviewed animal behaviour journal. ===== ===== ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 9-JUN-2004 22:09:27.68 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: What a yawn: take three Here is the link to the yawning video clip. http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/yawningdogs.html Regards, Jackie Perkins From: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "Pat Robards" 10-JUN-2004 03:55:40.24 To: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue From: Jenny Haskins Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 10:31 AM On the other hand, I'm sure that dogs can be taught to fake a yawn on cue. I'll also take a lot of convincing before I believe that a dog can give a 'real' yawn on cue. I can fake a yawn easily -- but it feels so very different to a real yawn. Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia Hello Jenny, As you yourself know working with the mammals at the Porpoise pool..... a mouth opening is easily taught, we cannot generalise from finding a trout in the milk. Pat Robards Australian Canine Current Events http://www.k9events.com/ From: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "Pat Robards" 10-JUN-2004 05:50:06.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:36 PM Subject: RE: Yawning on Cue <> Yes, a dog can urinate 10 times in a row on cue. You possibly are confused, you presume there is a time table, no so, the animal works within it's capabilities set up to succeed. When I am ready for the final stage, asking an animal to urinate 10 times in succession, I'd withhold free access to the environment inbetween urinating... giving plenty of water. <> << And as for my cue; well I had to invent one because no one has done this before,>> Are you quite sure, have you data to cover this claim? <>> Are you quite sure? <<>>> In answer to your question, none. Nothing personal, just an observation of mine, I noticed you removed an electronic collar at the beginning of your video clip. I'm wondering if this is part of the stimulus and the reason the dogs were unreliable during filming? Pat Robards Australian Canine Current Events http://www.k9events.com/ From: IN%"randihelene@tillung.no" "Randi Helene Tillung" 10-JUN-2004 06:25:52.43 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "'Geiger'", IN%"ewj@uiuc.edu" "'E. Wayne Johnson'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue Could you tell me more about or describe the observational learning that was involved in your training method, please? I am not quite sure what you are referring to. Thank you! Randi Helene Tillung Ethology student -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]=20 Sent: 9. juni 2004 08:17 To: 'E. Wayne Johnson'; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: RE: Yawning on Cue Thanks Wayne. I shall write it up now to publish, including the method, which in itself is controversial because it involved observational learning which is unproven in adult dogs. The next step is to work out what changes need to be made to preparedness theory. Presently I favour scrapping psychological preparedness, and would appreciate input from anyone interested in this debate.=20 Regards, Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: E. Wayne Johnson [mailto:ewj@uiuc.edu]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 1:07 PM To: Jenny Haskins; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Yawning on Cue I saw the yawn on the tape and the dogs display both a partial yawn and a=20 full-blown yawn.=A0 I had never heard that you can't teach dogs to yawn, but I would say that its just as well that I was not taught that yawnable erratum,=20 since these dogs do indeed yawn on command. At 06:16 PM 6/2/2004, Jenny Haskins wrote: =A0 I have not seen the video -- as my computer says that the download time is just under four hours :-( =A0 But I can see no problem with teaching a dog to 'apparently' yawn on cue.=A0 Whether or not this would be a 'real' yawn is debatable.=A0 Bul, people can fake a yawn, and even this fake yawn will tend to make other people start to yawn.=A0 So that IF yawning does calm other dogs, then this fake yawn could work equally well =A0 The hard part would be getting the yawn initially to reward, without stressing the dog.=A0 Free-shaping of random behaviour might be the way = to go.=A0 I know my father used to tell, with delight, of his dog when he = was a child, who would yawn with vocalisations to get attention.=A0 This had come about as the family used to laugh at him when he yawned naturally. =A0 Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 10-JUN-2004 08:38:04.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Help from an Ethologist, please I just got in a four week old coyote puppy. He is doing his threat gape and biting me. In seventeen years of working with wild coyote puppies, I have never had this happen. He was found in an apartment complex. Who knows what he may have gone through. Possibly children throwing stones at him. I have him in a kennel cab. He just cowers in the back corner. I have done the calling puppy sounds like Mom makes when I bring him food. He does not react to the sounds at all. We are going on our third day. Nothing has changed. Erich tells me to just leave him alone, but I have to clean out the kennel cab. I have to towel him to get him out. This just makes things worse. The gape first starts as a startle response in puppies Could it be that his eyesight isn't good? Any tips at all, using innate behaviors would be appreciated. CeAnn ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 10-JUN-2004 08:59:57.62 To: IN%"Urska.Kos@vf.uni-lj.si", IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: What a yawn: take three I have had an idea about this. It is not scientific but I like it. I think yawning is contagious to help synchronize the rest times of pack animals in order to keep them together. From: IN%"lucy@equinesynergy.freeserve.co.uk" 10-JUN-2004 09:27:20.86 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Contagious Yawning I found a website a few months ago entirely devoted to yawning and distinctly remember seeing an article on there about just that. Its called www.baillement.com and is in both French and English. LucyG -- Whatever you Wanadoo: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/ This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 10-JUN-2004 09:45:40.79 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: What a yawn: take three ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michalchik@aol.com=20 To: Urska.Kos@vf.uni-lj.si ; gooddog@dodo.com.au ; = Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca=20 Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:58 AM Subject: Re: What a yawn: take three I have had an idea about this. It is not scientific but I like it. I = think yawning is contagious to help synchronize the rest times of pack = animals in order to keep them together. This is an interesting point, that yawning is a contagious behavior. = And there are others: vomiting, sexual activity are a few others that I = can think of. And the interesting thing is that, if one closely = observes an individual vomiting, it actually produces the sensation of = nausea in the observer (even cleaning up vomit can be difficult). These = are pretty powerful behaviors to induce such a physiological change of = state through observation. I wonder if anyone is studying this? One = sociobiologist that I know has explained the contagious vomiting as a = protection from poisoning. His explanation was that since small tribes = generally shared food, if the food is making one of them sick, it was = probably not wholesome for any of them to have eaten--so the illness in = one member will cause the others to divest themselves of the possibly = poisoned meal. So your idea that the contagious yawning would cause the = whole pack (or tribe) to lie down and sleep a the same time does fit = that scenario. I wonder if contagious behaviors are only seen in those = species that live in close social units? =20 Since yawning does come under the category of contagious behavior, = perhaps it was not the best behavior for Seligman to use for an example = of psychological preparedness. However I would caution Jackie that = people are probably not rushing to lay the entire theory to waste (and = rushing to give her the laurels for defeating it), as she appears to = believe they should, because you do not disprove an entire theory simply = by showing that one of the examples doesn't turn out as expected, as Dr. = Gadbois pointed out to Jackie many months ago. If she feels that one = can disprove an entire theory with one short film clip, I suspect she = will be disappointed.=20 Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS =20 From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 10-JUN-2004 10:05:49.10 To: IN%"lucy@equinesynergy.freeserve.co.uk", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Contagious Yawning This is a great web site--thank you for the recommendation. I could spend all day reading the articles--that is, if I can stay awake! You know, when I started reading the articles I thought of a "Gary Larson-type" cartoon, which I would draw if I had any artistic skills. You would have a picture of a convention of yawn researchers, only they are all curled up in their chairs sleeping...... (sorry, couldn't help myself...) Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS ----- Original Message ----- From: lucy@equinesynergy.freeserve.co.uk To: Applied-ethology Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 8:25 AM Subject: [Spam] Contagious Yawning I found a website a few months ago entirely devoted to yawning and distinctly remember seeing an article on there about just that. Its called www.baillement.com and is in both French and English. LucyG ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Whatever you Wanadoo This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more here From: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "Pat Robards" 10-JUN-2004 10:29:35.28 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: What a yawn: take three ----- Original Message ----- From: Michalchik@aol.com Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:58 AM <>> Eric Klinghammer writes in the Wolf Ethogram: Ethology Series Number 3 (revised 1990 page 28). YAWN (YN) A wide gape with deep inhilation. The eyes may be slits or closed. The tongue often protrudes and curls upwards. A contagous behavior: the author yawned eight times while writing this. Pat Robards Australian Canine Current Events http://www.k9events.com/ From: IN%"billcamp@uci.net" "Bill Campbell" 10-JUN-2004 10:52:54.84 To: IN%"Urska.Kos@vf.uni-lj.si" "Kos Urska", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: RE: What a yawn: take three Hi Urska, et. al., Try Allelomimetic behavior. John Paul Scott and others have described it elegantly. Scott's Animal Behavior and Aggression gave some great examples. P.S. Wouldn't it be neat to have some input on this subject from that ex-waitress from England... Jane Goodall? :-))) Kindest regards, Bill Campbell BehavioRx Systems Grants Pass, OR -0- Kos Urska wrote: > > Hi to everyone... I'm not getting to any deep disscusions here, I'm just thinking of something else regarding the yawning... I was watching the video and it reminded me that I still wonder is yawning really "contageous"? It doesn't matter what species, observing somebody to yawn almost always makes the observer to yawn... My dog does it... when I'm really tired... And it goes the other way around... > > Anybody knows whether this has any scientific explanation? > > Kind regards, > Urska Kos > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] > Sent: cet 10.6.2004 6:08 > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Cc: > Subject: What a yawn: take three > > > > Here is the link to the yawning video clip. > > http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/yawningdogs.html > > Regards, > Jackie Perkins > > > > From: IN%"coape@nildram.co.uk" "Robin Walker" 10-JUN-2004 11:10:27.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network" CC: Subj: RE: What a yawn: take three Time to finger your Googles guys and girls! I am starting to yawn - and that brings nasty autonomic memories of sleep-apnoea, air-hunger, panic and Professor Amoroso's academic ferocity as a teacher. Add MacLean, Porges, suffocation alarm, nucleus ambiguus, 'fire-damp' and the hazards of cave dwelling to your search. Glance at your pectoral zones - you are mammals - dammit! You need four times as much oxygen as those man-eating handbags. The suffocation alarm is one of those which goes off in the brain and sets the others jangling. Social critters like us, and those darned dogs, have the entire cranial nerve, autonomic, toy-set and, being kind 'a cognitive, can co-opt it to all sorts of rewarding activities - some of which mayn't be strictly legal. Jackie! You are setting off my TLE alarm .. Now would you all please go back to being boring and not disturbing this list, before you fetch Moira in here to yell at us! Robin -----Original Message----- From: Janice Willard [mailto:jwillard@turbonet.com] Sent: 10 June 2004 16:43 To: Michalchik@aol.com Cc: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: What a yawn: take three ----- Original Message ----- From: Michalchik@aol.com To: Urska.Kos@vf.uni-lj.si ; gooddog@dodo.com.au ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:58 AM Subject: Re: What a yawn: take three I have had an idea about this. It is not scientific but I like it. I think yawning is contagious to help synchronize the rest times of pack animals in order to keep them together. This is an interesting point, that yawning is a contagious behavior. And there are others: vomiting, sexual activity are a few others that I can think of. And the interesting thing is that, if one closely observes an individual vomiting, it actually produces the sensation of nausea in the observer (even cleaning up vomit can be difficult). These are pretty powerful behaviors to induce such a physiological change of state through observation. I wonder if anyone is studying this? One sociobiologist that I know has explained the contagious vomiting as a protection from poisoning. His explanation was that since small tribes generally shared food, if the food is making one of them sick, it was probably not wholesome for any of them to have eaten--so the illness in one member will cause the others to divest themselves of the possibly poisoned meal. So your idea that the contagious yawning would cause the whole pack (or tribe) to lie down and sleep a the same time does fit that scenario. I wonder if contagious behaviors are only seen in those species that live in close social units? Since yawning does come under the category of contagious behavior, perhaps it was not the best behavior for Seligman to use for an example of psychological preparedness. However I would caution Jackie that people are probably not rushing to lay the entire theory to waste (and rushing to give her the laurels for defeating it), as she appears to believe they should, because you do not disprove an entire theory simply by showing that one of the examples doesn't turn out as expected, as Dr. Gadbois pointed out to Jackie many months ago. If she feels that one can disprove an entire theory with one short film clip, I suspect she will be disappointed. Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS From: IN%"lucy@equinesynergy.freeserve.co.uk" "Lucy Gray" 10-JUN-2004 11:18:05.97 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Contagious Yawning One thing I did notice when browing this website was that I couldn't stop yawning...................hmmmm. LucyG ----- Original Message ----- From: Janice Willard To: lucy@equinesynergy.freeserve.co.uk ; Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 5:04 PM Subject: Re: Contagious Yawning This is a great web site--thank you for the recommendation. I could spend all day reading the articles--that is, if I can stay awake! You know, when I started reading the articles I thought of a "Gary Larson-type" cartoon, which I would draw if I had any artistic skills. You would have a picture of a convention of yawn researchers, only they are all curled up in their chairs sleeping...... (sorry, couldn't help myself...) Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS ----- Original Message ----- From: lucy@equinesynergy.freeserve.co.uk To: Applied-ethology Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 8:25 AM Subject: [Spam] Contagious Yawning I found a website a few months ago entirely devoted to yawning and distinctly remember seeing an article on there about just that. Its called www.baillement.com and is in both French and English. LucyG ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whatever you Wanadoo This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more here From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 10-JUN-2004 12:10:32.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: What a yawn: take three Pat, How interesting. I just had an email from Erich telling me why Ostrich's yawn. It is a social behavior. After danger has passed, an ostrich will yawn, then the rest of the otrich's will yawn and then go about their business. CeAnn --- Pat Robards wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michalchik@aol.com > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:58 AM > > < scientific but I like it. I think yawning is > contagious to help synchronize the rest times of > pack animals in order to keep them together.>>> > > Eric Klinghammer writes in the Wolf Ethogram: > Ethology Series Number 3 (revised 1990 page 28). > > YAWN (YN) > A wide gape with deep inhilation. The eyes may be > slits or closed. The tongue often protrudes and > curls upwards. A contagous behavior: the author > yawned eight times while writing this. > > > Pat Robards > Australian Canine Current Events > http://www.k9events.com/ > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 10-JUN-2004 12:15:35.15 To: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "Pat Robards", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: What a yawn: take three Sorry Pat, I meant social signal not social behavior. CeAnn --- Pat Robards wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michalchik@aol.com > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:58 AM > > < scientific but I like it. I think yawning is > contagious to help synchronize the rest times of > pack animals in order to keep them together.>>> > > Eric Klinghammer writes in the Wolf Ethogram: > Ethology Series Number 3 (revised 1990 page 28). > > YAWN (YN) > A wide gape with deep inhilation. The eyes may be > slits or closed. The tongue often protrudes and > curls upwards. A contagous behavior: the author > yawned eight times while writing this. > > > Pat Robards > Australian Canine Current Events > http://www.k9events.com/ > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 10-JUN-2004 12:18:41.32 To: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: What a yawn: take three Do ostriches yawn in conjunction with sleep/wake transitions? I wonder if the transition between threat level alertness and normal waking alertness is analogous to the transition between sleep and wake alertness. From: IN%"mappleby@hsus.org" "Michael Appleby" 10-JUN-2004 13:46:42.19 To: IN%"rexxie1@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"d.j.mellor@massey.ac.nz", IN%"vincem@lab0.vet.ed.ac.uk", IN%"J.e.Kent@ed.ac.uk" Subj: RE: question regarding harvesting elkhorn velvet Marlene et al. Here's a response that finally came to me on the velveting question. Mike Michael C. Appleby (Dr) Vice-President Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture The Humane Society of the United States 2100 L Street, NW Washington, DC 20037, USA Switchboard 1 202 452 1100 Direct 1 301 258 3111 Fax 1 301 258 3081 Email mappleby@hsus.org -----Original Message----- From: john.church@gov.ab.ca [mailto:john.church@gov.ab.ca] Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 5:21 PM To: Michael Appleby Cc: Nigel.Cook@gov.ab.ca Subject: RE: Antler Removal Micheal, Our research group based in Lacombe, Alberta have done 6 studies comparing different methods of analgesic technique for removing antlers in both elk (Cervus elaphus) and reindeer (Rangifer tarandus). Our research findings, along with work done by J. R. Webster and L. R. Mathews are summarized in research papers submitted to the journal Rangifer as well as two papers presented this spring at the 2nd Antler Science and Product Technology Symposium held in NZ. In general the studies found that high-tension compression is as effective as local anaesthetic (Lidocaine) for pain management during antler removal. The data further indicate that the application of local anaesthetic may be more variable, and stressful to some animals, than application of compression analgesia. I am submitting all three papers on the subject for your review. [Note from Mike A: I have deleted the paper that is not yet accepted for publication.] I think it is important to keep in perspective that antler removal does not appear to be as grave an insult to the animal as dehorning. For example, in 3 years of study we have seen no evidence of inflammation after the procedure. We hypothesize that removing the antler at such a late stage of growth just prior to calcification aides in wound healing. The remaining antler on top of the pedicle of the deer quickly hardens and then later drops off the following spring. If you have any more questions on this or any other matter please do not hesitate to contact me. Regards Dr. John Church, Ph. D., P. Ag Leader, Livestock Welfare Unit Alberta Agriculture, Food & Rural Development #306, J. G. O'Donoghue Building 7000-113 Street Edmonton AB T6H 5T6 Ph. 780.644.1207 Fx. 780.422.9745 From: IN%"pajor@purdue.edu" "Pajor, Edmond A." 11-JUN-2004 10:37:56.29 To: IN%"ISAEnet-l@usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"Derek.Haley@gov.ab.ca" CC: Subj: North American ISAE Dear members A schedule of the NA-ISAE regional meeting to be held on June 18-19, 2004 is attached. Please note the the registration and social on Friday is in the West Faculty Lounge of the Purdue Memorial Union (3rd floor). The meeting on Saturday will be held in Room 218AB of Stewart Center (next to the union). Information about the Saturday Evening Social Event " Taste of Tippecanoe" can be found at http://www.tasteoftippecanoe.org/ Web Information Maps: http://news.uns.purdue.edu/newsweb.maps.html USDA-ARS Livestock Behavior Research Unit http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/usda/ Purdue Animal Welfare http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/CAWB/ Airport shuttle http://www.lafayettelimo.com/ Accommodations Purdue Memorial Union Club Hotel Reservations: 1-800-320-6291 or 765-494-8913 Hotel Switchboard: 765-494-8900 Fax: 765-494-8924 INTERNET: http://www.union.purdue.edu/PMUC.html Dorm rooms can be reserved by calling 765-494-0926 Other accommodations near campus include Hilton Garden Inn Holiday Inn City Center University Inn See you next week Ed Dr. Ed Pajor. Ph.D. Animal welfare and behavior Dept. of Animal Sciences Purdue University Poultry Science Building 125 S.Russell Street West Lafayette, IN 47904-2042 PH: 765-496-6665 Fax 765-494-9347 Email: pajor@purdue.edu From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 11-JUN-2004 11:49:09.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: grazing behaviour Dear all, A colleague who studies diet selection in small ruminants on pasture talked to me about the possibility of automatic monitoring of the animals, for instance through a camera placed on their head. I have a vague idea of having seen something like that in a publication somewhere. Anybody out there who knows more? Anna Olsson Dr Anna Olsson Postdoctoral research fellow Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"mappleby@hsus.org" "Michael Appleby" 11-JUN-2004 15:09:38.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"shusato@affrc.go.jp", IN%"rutterm@bbsrc.ac.uk" Subj: RE: grazing behaviour Anna et al There are many ways of monitoring animals at pasture, including devices fixed to their heads that record head position and/or jaw movements, some of which record data in a fixed pack that needs to be removed at intervals, others of which use remote sensing - and remote sensing is also used for positional data, for example by using satellite location systems. Someone who has done a lot on this is Mark Rutter. I am copying this to him. A camera on the head is less obviously useful for monitoring the animal concerned - except that I did know of one study that attempted to use this to study the choices that cows made during grazing. But I don't believe that was published, partly because it proved difficult to obtain much useful data from the films. That was by Shusuke Sato in Japan; I'm copying this to him too. Mike Michael C. Appleby (Dr) Vice-President Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture The Humane Society of the United States 2100 L Street, NW Washington, DC 20037, USA Switchboard 1 202 452 1100 Direct 1 301 258 3111 Fax 1 301 258 3081 Email mappleby@hsus.org -----Original Message----- From: Anna Olsson [mailto:olsson@ibmc.up.pt] Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 1:45 PM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: grazing behaviour Dear all, A colleague who studies diet selection in small ruminants on pasture talked to me about the possibility of automatic monitoring of the animals, for instance through a camera placed on their head. I have a vague idea of having seen something like that in a publication somewhere. Anybody out there who knows more? Anna Olsson Dr Anna Olsson Postdoctoral research fellow Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 12-JUN-2004 23:55:52.57 To: IN%"coape@nildram.co.uk" "'Robin Walker'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: What a yawn: take three The point is Seligman began the notion of psychological preparedness = with one short example of dogs being unable to learn to yawn on cue. That = seems to have been the basis for future research and assumptions. If the foundation is rotten, so is the tree.=20 Jackie PErkins -----Original Message----- From: Robin Walker [mailto:coape@nildram.co.uk]=20 Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 3:09 AM To: Applied Ethology Network Subject: RE: What a yawn: take three Time to finger your Googles guys and girls! =A0 I am starting to yawn =96 and that brings nasty autonomic memories of sleep-apnoea, air-hunger, panic and Professor Amoroso=92s academic = ferocity as a teacher. =A0 Add MacLean, Porges, suffocation alarm, nucleus ambiguus, = =91fire-damp=92 and the hazards of cave dwelling to your search. =A0 Glance at your pectoral zones =96 you are mammals =96 dammit! =A0 You need four times as much oxygen as those man-eating handbags. =A0 The suffocation alarm is one of those which goes off in the brain and = sets the others jangling. Social critters like us, and those darned dogs, = have the entire cranial nerve, autonomic, toy-set and, being kind =91a = cognitive, can co-opt it to all sorts of rewarding activities =96 some of which = mayn=92t be strictly legal. =A0 Jackie! You are setting off my TLE alarm =85.=20 =A0 Now would you all please go back to being boring and not disturbing this list, before you fetch Moira in here to yell at us!=20 =A0 Robin =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -----Original Message----- From: Janice Willard [mailto:jwillard@turbonet.com]=20 Sent: 10 June 2004 16:43 To: Michalchik@aol.com Cc: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: What a yawn: take three =A0 =A0 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michalchik@aol.com=20 To: Urska.Kos@vf.uni-lj.si ; gooddog@dodo.com.au ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca=20 Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:58 AM Subject: Re: What a yawn: take three =A0 I have had an idea about this. It is not scientific but I like it. I = think yawning is contagious to help synchronize the rest times of pack animals = in order to keep them together. =A0 This is an interesting point, that yawning is a contagious behavior.=A0 = And there are others: vomiting, sexual activity are a few others that I can think of.=A0 And the interesting thing is that, if one closely observes = an individual vomiting, it actually produces the sensation of nausea in the observer (even cleaning up vomit can be difficult). These are pretty powerful behaviors to induce such a physiological change of state = through observation. I wonder if anyone is studying this?=A0 One sociobiologist = that I know has explained the contagious vomiting as a protection from = poisoning.=A0 His explanation was that since small tribes generally shared food, if = the food is making one of them sick, it was probably not wholesome for any = of them to have eaten--so the illness in one member will cause the others = to divest themselves of the possibly poisoned meal.=A0 So your idea that = the contagious yawning would cause the whole pack (or tribe) to lie down and sleep a the same time does fit that scenario.=A0 I wonder if contagious behaviors are only seen in those species that live in close social = units?=A0=20 =A0 Since yawning does come under the category of contagious behavior, = perhaps it was not the best behavior for Seligman to use for an example of psychological preparedness.=A0 However I would caution Jackie that = people are probably not rushing to lay the entire theory to waste (and rushing to = give her the laurels for defeating it), as she appears to believe they should,=A0because you do not disprove an entire=A0theory simply by = showing that one of the examples=A0doesn't turn out=A0as expected, as Dr. Gadbois = pointed out to Jackie many months ago.=A0 If she feels that one can disprove an = entire theory with one short film clip, I=A0suspect she will be = disappointed.=A0 =A0 Janice =A0 Janice Willard, DVM, MS=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 =A0 From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 12-JUN-2004 23:56:32.68 To: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "'Pat Robards'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue I am quite sure no-one has gone on the record for teaching a dog to = yawn. Since I am the first, I take the credit for being the first. And since = your time frame for 10 repetitions is large, well yes, my dogs can do that = for yawning. "10 times in a row" as it reads, means without intervening behaviours; you are the one who needs to be clear.=20 Electronics had nothing to do with yawn training. Observational learning = and R+ were the methods used.=20 I am surprised you admit to not using R+ on your fellow species; did I misunderstand? Do you have any human friends? Jackie Perkins Veterinary Behaviourist -----Original Message----- From: Pat Robards [mailto:probards@ozemail.com.au]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 9:49 PM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Yawning on Cue Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:36 PM Subject: RE: Yawning on Cue <> Yes,=A0 a dog can urinate 10 times in a row on cue. You possibly are confused,=A0=A0=A0 you presume there is a time table, no so,=A0 the = animal works within it's capabilities=A0 set up to succeed. When I am ready=20 for the final stage, asking=A0an animal to urinate 10 times in = succession, I'd=A0 withhold free access=A0 to the environment inbetween urinating... giving=A0 plenty of water. <> =A0 << And as for my cue; well I had to invent one because no one has done this before,>> Are you quite=A0 sure,=A0 have you data to cover this claim? <>> Are you quite sure? <<>>> In answer to your question, none.=A0 Nothing personal, just an = observation=20 of mine,=A0I noticed=A0=A0you=A0 removed an electronic=A0collar at the = beginning=A0 of=A0 your=A0 video=A0 clip.=A0 I'm wondering if this is part of the stimulus = and the=A0reason=20 the dogs were unreliable during filming?=A0 =A0 Pat Robards Australian Canine Current Events http://www.k9events.com/ From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 12-JUN-2004 23:56:37.54 To: IN%"randihelene@tillung.no" "'Randi Helene Tillung'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Yawning on Cue I intend to detail all in the paper I am writing up for publication. Cheers, Jackie PErkins -----Original Message----- From: Randi Helene Tillung [mailto:randihelene@tillung.no]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 10:25 PM To: 'Geiger'; 'E. Wayne Johnson'; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: RE: Yawning on Cue Could you tell me more about or describe the observational learning that was involved in your training method, please? I am not quite sure what you are referring to. Thank you! Randi Helene Tillung Ethology student -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]=20 Sent: 9. juni 2004 08:17 To: 'E. Wayne Johnson'; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: RE: Yawning on Cue Thanks Wayne. I shall write it up now to publish, including the method, which in itself is controversial because it involved observational learning which is unproven in adult dogs. The next step is to work out what changes need to be made to preparedness theory. Presently I favour scrapping psychological preparedness, and would appreciate input from anyone interested in this debate.=20 Regards, Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: E. Wayne Johnson [mailto:ewj@uiuc.edu]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 1:07 PM To: Jenny Haskins; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Yawning on Cue I saw the yawn on the tape and the dogs display both a partial yawn and a=20 full-blown yawn.=A0 I had never heard that you can't teach dogs to yawn, but I would say that its just as well that I was not taught that yawnable erratum,=20 since these dogs do indeed yawn on command. At 06:16 PM 6/2/2004, Jenny Haskins wrote: =A0 I have not seen the video -- as my computer says that the download time is just under four hours :-( =A0 But I can see no problem with teaching a dog to 'apparently' yawn on cue.=A0 Whether or not this would be a 'real' yawn is debatable.=A0 Bul, people can fake a yawn, and even this fake yawn will tend to make other people start to yawn.=A0 So that IF yawning does calm other dogs, then this fake yawn could work equally well =A0 The hard part would be getting the yawn initially to reward, without stressing the dog.=A0 Free-shaping of random behaviour might be the way = to go.=A0 I know my father used to tell, with delight, of his dog when he = was a child, who would yawn with vocalisations to get attention.=A0 This had come about as the family used to laugh at him when he yawned naturally. =A0 Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia From: IN%"michael.zechmann@panthera.cc" "Michael Zechmann" 14-JUN-2004 03:24:04.63 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: african elephants Hello all, As you know I'm looking for a Ph.D. position. I had an idea about African Elephants. Maybe some of you do have any experience with these animals and could comment on the following idea: Based upon my hyothesis that elephants are very intelligent (knowing that this is not the best choice of wording ;-)), and the fact that there is a significant lack of literature on that, I am intending to apply tests on elephants, which were originally carried out on apes (for example the Bonobo Kanzi experiments). And I'm sure that elephants could beat the apes ;-) One of the problems I'm aware of is the housing of elephants. Ideally, I would need single boxes, no group. Thats hard to find nowadays, because normally elephants are housed in groups. Any input is highly appreciated, such as pointers to literature, people, etc... regards Michael ****************************************************************** * * * Michael Zechmann, MSc. * * email: michael.zechmann@panthera.cc * * phone: +43 (0)650 40 20 307 * * more info at: http://lunarsat.uibk.ac.at/zecke/zechmann.htm * * * ****************************************************************** From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 14-JUN-2004 15:35:03.77 To: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "'Cecilia Lambert'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please Everyone uses punishment based techniques. Some are honest enough to admit it. I am better described as a pet psychiatrist anyway. I have posted this to the list because everyone should know how narrow minded and ignorant you are. Jackie PErkins -----Original Message----- From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:30 AM To: Geiger Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please I do not use punishment based techniques. That is why I asked for Ethologists to respond. I can tell from your web site that you are not an Ethologist. CeAnn --- Geiger wrote: > I will assume a coyote is similar to a dog (big > assumption). 4 weeks old: he > should not be weaned yet and requires the structure > and discipline received > from dam and litter. Are there other similar aged > pups at least he could be > put with? He also needs possibly a head collar and > deference program. Many > books could be written about these to explain the > practice and theory. If > you require info about deference and head collars, > perhaps we should talk > off list. He should not be isolated. > Regards, > Jackie PErkins > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:38 AM > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Help from an Ethologist, please > > I just got in a four week old coyote puppy. He is > doing his threat gape and biting me. In seventeen > years of working with wild coyote puppies, I have > never had this happen. > He was found in an apartment complex. Who knows > what he may have gone through. Possibly children > throwing stones at him. > I have him in a kennel cab. He just cowers in the > back corner. I have done the calling puppy sounds > like Mom makes when I bring him food. He does not > react to the sounds at all. We are going on our > third > day. Nothing has changed. > Erich tells me to just leave him alone, but I have > to clean out the kennel cab. I have to towel him to > get him out. This just makes things worse. > The gape first starts as a startle response in > puppies > Could it be that his eyesight isn't good? Any tips > at > all, using innate behaviors would be appreciated. > CeAnn > > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 14-JUN-2004 15:39:38.72 To: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "'Cecilia Lambert'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: wake up call to those who believe they do not use punishment Everyone uses punishment based techniques. Some are honest enough to admit it, or perhaps educated enough to know what it is and is not. I am best described as a pet psychiatrist anyway. I have posted this to the list because everyone should know how narrow minded and ignorant you are. What are you doing with a 4 week old canid shut in a box? That is not punishment? Jackie PErkins -----Original Message----- From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:30 AM To: Geiger Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please I do not use punishment based techniques. That is why I asked for Ethologists to respond. I can tell from your web site that you are not an Ethologist. CeAnn --- Geiger wrote: > I will assume a coyote is similar to a dog (big > assumption). 4 weeks old: he > should not be weaned yet and requires the structure > and discipline received > from dam and litter. Are there other similar aged > pups at least he could be > put with? He also needs possibly a head collar and > deference program. Many > books could be written about these to explain the > practice and theory. If > you require info about deference and head collars, > perhaps we should talk > off list. He should not be isolated. > Regards, > Jackie PErkins > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:38 AM > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Help from an Ethologist, please > > I just got in a four week old coyote puppy. He is > doing his threat gape and biting me. In seventeen > years of working with wild coyote puppies, I have > never had this happen. > He was found in an apartment complex. Who knows > what he may have gone through. Possibly children > throwing stones at him. > I have him in a kennel cab. He just cowers in the > back corner. I have done the calling puppy sounds > like Mom makes when I bring him food. He does not > react to the sounds at all. We are going on our > third > day. Nothing has changed. > Erich tells me to just leave him alone, but I have > to clean out the kennel cab. I have to towel him to > get him out. This just makes things worse. > The gape first starts as a startle response in > puppies > Could it be that his eyesight isn't good? Any tips > at > all, using innate behaviors would be appreciated. > CeAnn > > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com" "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc." 14-JUN-2004 15:54:21.30 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger", IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "'Cecilia Lambert'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please Please excuse my jumping in "midstream" but since this was posted to the list I cannot help but respond. CeAnn asked for my advice also concerning this coyote pup and my advice did not incorporate punishment based techniques. We had a similar situation once with a coyote pup of approximately the same age. She is now an adult -- friendly to her main caregivers, still shy of strangers but quite content and comfortable here. She was NEVER punished for her behavior as a pup. She will not be punished as an adult either. Similarly, with our hand-reared wolves, we NEVER use punishment as a method of "training" or socialization. Punishment may or may not work with domestic dog breeds (that is a whole new topic and/or other argument) but it does not work well for wild species, be they wild-born or captive hand-reared. Vivian Singer-Ferris Executive Director Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc. info@kerwoodwolf.com www.kerwoodwolf.com Tel: (519) 247-1118 Fax: (519) 247-9876 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geiger" To: "'Cecilia Lambert'" ; Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:33 PM Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please Everyone uses punishment based techniques. Some are honest enough to admit it. I am better described as a pet psychiatrist anyway. I have posted this to the list because everyone should know how narrow minded and ignorant you are. Jackie PErkins -----Original Message----- From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:30 AM To: Geiger Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please I do not use punishment based techniques. That is why I asked for Ethologists to respond. I can tell from your web site that you are not an Ethologist. CeAnn --- Geiger wrote: > I will assume a coyote is similar to a dog (big > assumption). 4 weeks old: he > should not be weaned yet and requires the structure > and discipline received > from dam and litter. Are there other similar aged > pups at least he could be > put with? He also needs possibly a head collar and > deference program. Many > books could be written about these to explain the > practice and theory. If > you require info about deference and head collars, > perhaps we should talk > off list. He should not be isolated. > Regards, > Jackie PErkins > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:38 AM > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Help from an Ethologist, please > > I just got in a four week old coyote puppy. He is > doing his threat gape and biting me. In seventeen > years of working with wild coyote puppies, I have > never had this happen. > He was found in an apartment complex. Who knows > what he may have gone through. Possibly children > throwing stones at him. > I have him in a kennel cab. He just cowers in the > back corner. I have done the calling puppy sounds > like Mom makes when I bring him food. He does not > react to the sounds at all. We are going on our > third > day. Nothing has changed. > Erich tells me to just leave him alone, but I have > to clean out the kennel cab. I have to towel him to > get him out. This just makes things worse. > The gape first starts as a startle response in > puppies > Could it be that his eyesight isn't good? Any tips > at > all, using innate behaviors would be appreciated. > CeAnn > > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 14-JUN-2004 16:17:11.99 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: wake up call to those who believe they do not use punishment Houdini is not shut in a box. The door is open and he can come and go as he pleases in my kitchen/tv room of my house. CeAnn --- Geiger wrote: > Everyone uses punishment based techniques. Some are > honest enough to admit > it, or perhaps educated enough to know what it is > and is not. > I am best described as a pet psychiatrist anyway. > I have posted this to the list because everyone > should know how narrow > minded and ignorant you are. What are you doing with > a 4 week old canid shut > in a box? That is not punishment? > Jackie PErkins > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:30 AM > To: Geiger > Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please > > I do not use punishment based techniques. That is > why > I asked for Ethologists to respond. I can tell from > your web site that you are not an Ethologist. > CeAnn > --- Geiger wrote: > > I will assume a coyote is similar to a dog (big > > assumption). 4 weeks old: he > > should not be weaned yet and requires the > structure > > and discipline received > > from dam and litter. Are there other similar aged > > pups at least he could be > > put with? He also needs possibly a head collar and > > deference program. Many > > books could be written about these to explain the > > practice and theory. If > > you require info about deference and head collars, > > perhaps we should talk > > off list. He should not be isolated. > > Regards, > > Jackie PErkins > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:38 AM > > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Subject: Help from an Ethologist, please > > > > I just got in a four week old coyote puppy. He is > > doing his threat gape and biting me. In seventeen > > years of working with wild coyote puppies, I have > > never had this happen. > > He was found in an apartment complex. Who knows > > what he may have gone through. Possibly children > > throwing stones at him. > > I have him in a kennel cab. He just cowers in > the > > back corner. I have done the calling puppy sounds > > like Mom makes when I bring him food. He does not > > react to the sounds at all. We are going on our > > third > > day. Nothing has changed. > > Erich tells me to just leave him alone, but I > have > > to clean out the kennel cab. I have to towel him > to > > get him out. This just makes things worse. > > The gape first starts as a startle response in > > puppies > > Could it be that his eyesight isn't good? Any > tips > > at > > all, using innate behaviors would be appreciated. > > CeAnn > > > > ===== > > CeAnn Lambert > > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 14-JUN-2004 16:17:33.15 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: wake up call to those who believe they do not use punishment Houdini is not shut in a box. The door is open and he can come and go as he pleases in my kitchen/tv room of my house. CeAnn --- Geiger wrote: > Everyone uses punishment based techniques. Some are > honest enough to admit > it, or perhaps educated enough to know what it is > and is not. > I am best described as a pet psychiatrist anyway. > I have posted this to the list because everyone > should know how narrow > minded and ignorant you are. What are you doing with > a 4 week old canid shut > in a box? That is not punishment? > Jackie PErkins > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:30 AM > To: Geiger > Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please > > I do not use punishment based techniques. That is > why > I asked for Ethologists to respond. I can tell from > your web site that you are not an Ethologist. > CeAnn > --- Geiger wrote: > > I will assume a coyote is similar to a dog (big > > assumption). 4 weeks old: he > > should not be weaned yet and requires the > structure > > and discipline received > > from dam and litter. Are there other similar aged > > pups at least he could be > > put with? He also needs possibly a head collar and > > deference program. Many > > books could be written about these to explain the > > practice and theory. If > > you require info about deference and head collars, > > perhaps we should talk > > off list. He should not be isolated. > > Regards, > > Jackie PErkins > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:38 AM > > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Subject: Help from an Ethologist, please > > > > I just got in a four week old coyote puppy. He is > > doing his threat gape and biting me. In seventeen > > years of working with wild coyote puppies, I have > > never had this happen. > > He was found in an apartment complex. Who knows > > what he may have gone through. Possibly children > > throwing stones at him. > > I have him in a kennel cab. He just cowers in > the > > back corner. I have done the calling puppy sounds > > like Mom makes when I bring him food. He does not > > react to the sounds at all. We are going on our > > third > > day. Nothing has changed. > > Erich tells me to just leave him alone, but I > have > > to clean out the kennel cab. I have to towel him > to > > get him out. This just makes things worse. > > The gape first starts as a startle response in > > puppies > > Could it be that his eyesight isn't good? Any > tips > > at > > all, using innate behaviors would be appreciated. > > CeAnn > > > > ===== > > CeAnn Lambert > > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"applied.ethology@katiestuff.com" "Katie Lukas" 14-JUN-2004 16:18:31.68 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please A quick question - are you speaking of punishment in the colloquial sense (which nearly always seems to indicate the boss hog doing something bad to the offender) or the technical behavioral sense (positive versus negative punishment; includes both an aversive stimulus and the removal of a pleasurable stimulus)? To me I think this makes a fair amount of difference to the discussion - it can mean the difference between discussing spankings versus "no dessert until you eat your vegetables," as a human example. Katie Lukas At 5:53 PM -0400 6/14/04, Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc. wrote: >Please excuse my jumping in "midstream" but since this was posted to the >list I cannot help but respond. CeAnn asked for my advice also concerning >this coyote pup and my advice did not incorporate punishment based >techniques. We had a similar situation once with a coyote pup of >approximately the same age. She is now an adult -- friendly to her main >caregivers, still shy of strangers but quite content and comfortable here. >She was NEVER punished for her behavior as a pup. She will not be punished >as an adult either. > >Similarly, with our hand-reared wolves, we NEVER use punishment as a method >of "training" or socialization. Punishment may or may not work with domestic >dog breeds (that is a whole new topic and/or other argument) but it does not >work well for wild species, be they wild-born or captive hand-reared. > >Vivian Singer-Ferris >Executive Director >Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc. >info@kerwoodwolf.com >www.kerwoodwolf.com >Tel: (519) 247-1118 >Fax: (519) 247-9876 > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Geiger" >To: "'Cecilia Lambert'" ; > >Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:33 PM >Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please > > >Everyone uses punishment based techniques. Some are honest enough to admit >it. I am better described as a pet psychiatrist anyway. >I have posted this to the list because everyone should know how narrow >minded and ignorant you are. >Jackie PErkins > >-----Original Message----- >From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] >Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:30 AM >To: Geiger >Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please > >I do not use punishment based techniques. That is why >I asked for Ethologists to respond. I can tell from >your web site that you are not an Ethologist. >CeAnn >--- Geiger wrote: >> I will assume a coyote is similar to a dog (big >> assumption). 4 weeks old: he >> should not be weaned yet and requires the structure >> and discipline received >> from dam and litter. Are there other similar aged >> pups at least he could be >> put with? He also needs possibly a head collar and >> deference program. Many >> books could be written about these to explain the >> practice and theory. If >> you require info about deference and head collars, >> perhaps we should talk >> off list. He should not be isolated. >> Regards, >> Jackie PErkins >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] >> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:38 AM >> To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >> Subject: Help from an Ethologist, please >> >> I just got in a four week old coyote puppy. He is >> doing his threat gape and biting me. In seventeen >> years of working with wild coyote puppies, I have >> never had this happen. >> He was found in an apartment complex. Who knows >> what he may have gone through. Possibly children >> throwing stones at him. >> I have him in a kennel cab. He just cowers in the >> back corner. I have done the calling puppy sounds >> like Mom makes when I bring him food. He does not >> react to the sounds at all. We are going on our >> third >> day. Nothing has changed. >> Erich tells me to just leave him alone, but I have >> to clean out the kennel cab. I have to towel him to >> get him out. This just makes things worse. >> The gape first starts as a startle response in >> puppies >> Could it be that his eyesight isn't good? Any tips >> at >> all, using innate behaviors would be appreciated. >> CeAnn >> >> ===== >> CeAnn Lambert >> Indiana Coyote Rescue Center >> www.WolfPark.org/ICRC >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. >> http://messenger.yahoo.com/ >> >> >> > > >===== >CeAnn Lambert >Indiana Coyote Rescue Center >www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. >http://messenger.yahoo.com/ -- From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 14-JUN-2004 16:24:54.83 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please I am so glad that you have chosen to share a personal email to you with the list. That says more about you, then it does about me. CeAnn --- Geiger wrote: > Everyone uses punishment based techniques. Some are > honest enough to admit > it. I am better described as a pet psychiatrist > anyway. > I have posted this to the list because everyone > should know how narrow > minded and ignorant you are. > Jackie PErkins > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:30 AM > To: Geiger > Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please > > I do not use punishment based techniques. That is > why > I asked for Ethologists to respond. I can tell from > your web site that you are not an Ethologist. > CeAnn > --- Geiger wrote: > > I will assume a coyote is similar to a dog (big > > assumption). 4 weeks old: he > > should not be weaned yet and requires the > structure > > and discipline received > > from dam and litter. Are there other similar aged > > pups at least he could be > > put with? He also needs possibly a head collar and > > deference program. Many > > books could be written about these to explain the > > practice and theory. If > > you require info about deference and head collars, > > perhaps we should talk > > off list. He should not be isolated. > > Regards, > > Jackie PErkins > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:38 AM > > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Subject: Help from an Ethologist, please > > > > I just got in a four week old coyote puppy. He is > > doing his threat gape and biting me. In seventeen > > years of working with wild coyote puppies, I have > > never had this happen. > > He was found in an apartment complex. Who knows > > what he may have gone through. Possibly children > > throwing stones at him. > > I have him in a kennel cab. He just cowers in > the > > back corner. I have done the calling puppy sounds > > like Mom makes when I bring him food. He does not > > react to the sounds at all. We are going on our > > third > > day. Nothing has changed. > > Erich tells me to just leave him alone, but I > have > > to clean out the kennel cab. I have to towel him > to > > get him out. This just makes things worse. > > The gape first starts as a startle response in > > puppies > > Could it be that his eyesight isn't good? Any > tips > > at > > all, using innate behaviors would be appreciated. > > CeAnn > > > > ===== > > CeAnn Lambert > > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"fmartin@vetmed.wsu.edu" "Francois Martin" 14-JUN-2004 16:30:27.65 To: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert", IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please Don't both of you have other things to do? I know I do and I would appreciate not having to witness your childish behavior. That's enough already. Francois Martin, Ph.D. Associate Director of the Center for the Study of Animal Well-Being and Head of People-Pet Partnership College of Veterinary Medicine Washington State University Tel. 509 335.4569 Fax 509 335.6094 fmartin@vetmed.wsu.edu http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-pppp/ -----Original Message----- From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 3:25 PM To: Geiger; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please I am so glad that you have chosen to share a personal email to you with the list. That says more about you, then it does about me. CeAnn --- Geiger wrote: > Everyone uses punishment based techniques. Some are > honest enough to admit > it. I am better described as a pet psychiatrist > anyway. > I have posted this to the list because everyone > should know how narrow > minded and ignorant you are. > Jackie PErkins > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:30 AM > To: Geiger > Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please > > I do not use punishment based techniques. That is > why > I asked for Ethologists to respond. I can tell from > your web site that you are not an Ethologist. > CeAnn > --- Geiger wrote: > > I will assume a coyote is similar to a dog (big > > assumption). 4 weeks old: he > > should not be weaned yet and requires the > structure > > and discipline received > > from dam and litter. Are there other similar aged > > pups at least he could be > > put with? He also needs possibly a head collar and > > deference program. Many > > books could be written about these to explain the > > practice and theory. If > > you require info about deference and head collars, > > perhaps we should talk > > off list. He should not be isolated. > > Regards, > > Jackie PErkins > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:38 AM > > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Subject: Help from an Ethologist, please > > > > I just got in a four week old coyote puppy. He is > > doing his threat gape and biting me. In seventeen > > years of working with wild coyote puppies, I have > > never had this happen. > > He was found in an apartment complex. Who knows > > what he may have gone through. Possibly children > > throwing stones at him. > > I have him in a kennel cab. He just cowers in > the > > back corner. I have done the calling puppy sounds > > like Mom makes when I bring him food. He does not > > react to the sounds at all. We are going on our > > third > > day. Nothing has changed. > > Erich tells me to just leave him alone, but I > have > > to clean out the kennel cab. I have to towel him > to > > get him out. This just makes things worse. > > The gape first starts as a startle response in > > puppies > > Could it be that his eyesight isn't good? Any > tips > > at > > all, using innate behaviors would be appreciated. > > CeAnn > > > > ===== > > CeAnn Lambert > > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com" "Jo Angleberger" 14-JUN-2004 18:55:26.30 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: african elephants You wrote: Based upon my hyothesis that elephants are very intelligent (knowing that this is not the best choice of wording ;-)), and the fact that there is a significant lack of literature on that, I am intending to apply tests on elephants, which were originally carried out on apes (for example the Bonobo Kanzi experiments). One of the problems I'm aware of is the housing of elephants. Ideally, I would need single boxes, no group. Thats hard to find nowadays, because normally elephants are housed in groups. =======are you planning to study adults, juveniles, younger or all? And do you require single captive animals or do you want to isolate individuals from their group? Either way, and I believe you won't get the optimal results more likely if you tested different individuals while letting them remain in their group. Jo _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ From: IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com" "Jo Angleberger" 14-JUN-2004 18:57:51.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please I'm not an ethologist. But may I offer a way to acclimate the pup? It's the same method used with people trying to overcome severe phobias, so if I get it wrong, you can always look it up. Simply put, acclimation has to progress by inches, literally in this case; for example (I assume the pup is eating the food you supply) put the food farther away from him each day. Keep making the sounds, if it can hear then the sounds will eventually help both of you. The toweling is apparently traumatic and will defeat any progress you could otherwise make. Can you find another den-like place for him that can be easily and quietly taken apart so you don't have to move the pup? Lastly, just spend quiet time sitting as near to him as his personal space seems to allow---he should display signs either subtle or severe that you should look for and space yourself accordingly. Spend hours per day in his space so he can acclimate to you--this has been done with wolves and other wild animals, though I've only heard the success stories and don't know if it always works. Do you have a thick blanket or big stuffed animal you can put in with him? Towering over him is probably traumatic, too, can you try getting on all fours when your around him : ) As for you and Jackie, both of you knock it off. What's more important, ego wars or relieving the pup's trauma? Jo I am so glad that you have chosen to share a personal email to you with the list. That says more about you, then it does about me. CeAnn --- Geiger wrote: > Everyone uses punishment based techniques. Some are > honest enough to admit > it. I am better described as a pet psychiatrist > anyway. > I have posted this to the list because everyone > should know how narrow > minded and ignorant you are. > Jackie PErkins > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:30 AM > To: Geiger > Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please > > I do not use punishment based techniques. That is > why > I asked for Ethologists to respond. I can tell from > your web site that you are not an Ethologist. > CeAnn > --- Geiger wrote: > > I will assume a coyote is similar to a dog (big > > assumption). 4 weeks old: he > > should not be weaned yet and requires the > structure > > and discipline received > > from dam and litter. Are there other similar aged > > pups at least he could be > > put with? He also needs possibly a head collar and > > deference program. Many > > books could be written about these to explain the > > practice and theory. If > > you require info about deference and head collars, > > perhaps we should talk > > off list. He should not be isolated. > > Regards, > > Jackie PErkins > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:38 AM > > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Subject: Help from an Ethologist, please > > > > I just got in a four week old coyote puppy. He is > > doing his threat gape and biting me. In seventeen > > years of working with wild coyote puppies, I have > > never had this happen. > > He was found in an apartment complex. Who knows > > what he may have gone through. Possibly children > > throwing stones at him. > > I have him in a kennel cab. He just cowers in > the > > back corner. I have done the calling puppy sounds > > like Mom makes when I bring him food. He does not > > react to the sounds at all. We are going on our > > third > > day. Nothing has changed. > > Erich tells me to just leave him alone, but I > have > > to clean out the kennel cab. I have to towel him > to > > get him out. This just makes things worse. > > The gape first starts as a startle response in > > puppies > > Could it be that his eyesight isn't good? Any > tips > > at > > all, using innate behaviors would be appreciated. > > CeAnn > > > > ===== > > CeAnn Lambert > > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/ From: IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com" "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc." 14-JUN-2004 19:15:29.74 To: IN%"applied.ethology@katiestuff.com" "Katie Lukas", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please I was speaking mainly of punishment in the colloquial sense. For example, we don't "scruff" wolf pups. We don't "boink" them on the nose. We don't spank etc. etc. We do however institute "time outs" when necessary but have other preferred methods when dealing with unacceptable behavior. For example, wolves absolutely love to grab clothing, expecially loose clothing, and pull, bite, tear -- often refusing to let go. Rather than hitting them on the nose we prefer to immediately give them something else to do that is even more fun. If they still refuse to let go, we literally place a hand over their nose, open their jaws, and turn their head sideways. This gives them a clear message without us doing anything that can be interpreted by the wolves as violent or truly threatening. The key is consistency and patience. Some wolves learn much quicker than others. The odd time that a yearling or adult exhibits this behavior again, and nothing else works as a deterrent, we use a bite stick, which has always done the trick. In the case of the coyote pup mentioned in my post below (the one that had similar behavior to the pup CeAnn is having a problem with), we did not punish her for threatening and/or biting us. What we did was simply ignore her behavior and go about our business as if nothing was wrong or out of the ordinary. When I had to interact with her, or lean close to her for something, and she bit I did not withdraw my hand (yes, it did hurt). I simply waited for her to release her grip. Eventually she decided that her threats and "attacks" had no effect on me. I did not retreat and I did not retaliate. She eventually grew to trust me as well as her other main caretakers. Vivian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katie Lukas" To: Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 6:17 PM Subject: Re: Help from an Ethologist, please A quick question - are you speaking of punishment in the colloquial sense (which nearly always seems to indicate the boss hog doing something bad to the offender) or the technical behavioral sense (positive versus negative punishment; includes both an aversive stimulus and the removal of a pleasurable stimulus)? To me I think this makes a fair amount of difference to the discussion - it can mean the difference between discussing spankings versus "no dessert until you eat your vegetables," as a human example. Katie Lukas At 5:53 PM -0400 6/14/04, Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc. wrote: >Please excuse my jumping in "midstream" but since this was posted to the >list I cannot help but respond. CeAnn asked for my advice also concerning >this coyote pup and my advice did not incorporate punishment based >techniques. We had a similar situation once with a coyote pup of >approximately the same age. She is now an adult -- friendly to her main >caregivers, still shy of strangers but quite content and comfortable here. >She was NEVER punished for her behavior as a pup. She will not be punished >as an adult either. > >Similarly, with our hand-reared wolves, we NEVER use punishment as a method >of "training" or socialization. Punishment may or may not work with domestic >dog breeds (that is a whole new topic and/or other argument) but it does not >work well for wild species, be they wild-born or captive hand-reared. > >Vivian Singer-Ferris >Executive Director >Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc. >info@kerwoodwolf.com >www.kerwoodwolf.com >Tel: (519) 247-1118 >Fax: (519) 247-9876 > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Geiger" >To: "'Cecilia Lambert'" ; > >Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:33 PM >Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please > > >Everyone uses punishment based techniques. Some are honest enough to admit >it. I am better described as a pet psychiatrist anyway. >I have posted this to the list because everyone should know how narrow >minded and ignorant you are. >Jackie PErkins > >-----Original Message----- >From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] >Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:30 AM >To: Geiger >Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please > >I do not use punishment based techniques. That is why >I asked for Ethologists to respond. I can tell from >your web site that you are not an Ethologist. >CeAnn >--- Geiger wrote: >> I will assume a coyote is similar to a dog (big >> assumption). 4 weeks old: he >> should not be weaned yet and requires the structure >> and discipline received >> from dam and litter. Are there other similar aged >> pups at least he could be >> put with? He also needs possibly a head collar and >> deference program. Many >> books could be written about these to explain the >> practice and theory. If >> you require info about deference and head collars, >> perhaps we should talk >> off list. He should not be isolated. >> Regards, >> Jackie PErkins >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] >> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:38 AM >> To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >> Subject: Help from an Ethologist, please >> >> I just got in a four week old coyote puppy. He is >> doing his threat gape and biting me. In seventeen >> years of working with wild coyote puppies, I have >> never had this happen. >> He was found in an apartment complex. Who knows >> what he may have gone through. Possibly children >> throwing stones at him. >> I have him in a kennel cab. He just cowers in the >> back corner. I have done the calling puppy sounds >> like Mom makes when I bring him food. He does not >> react to the sounds at all. We are going on our >> third >> day. Nothing has changed. >> Erich tells me to just leave him alone, but I have >> to clean out the kennel cab. I have to towel him to >> get him out. This just makes things worse. >> The gape first starts as a startle response in >> puppies >> Could it be that his eyesight isn't good? Any tips >> at >> all, using innate behaviors would be appreciated. >> CeAnn >> >> ===== >> CeAnn Lambert >> Indiana Coyote Rescue Center >> www.WolfPark.org/ICRC >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. >> http://messenger.yahoo.com/ >> >> >> > > >===== >CeAnn Lambert >Indiana Coyote Rescue Center >www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. >http://messenger.yahoo.com/ -- From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 14-JUN-2004 19:28:16.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Would rabbits like Trix cereal? Rabbits seem to like crunchy things, but we are debating if the sweetneess would be an enticement. Do rabbits like sweet things? Just curious. Any actual experimental results would be most appreciated. From: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" "Heather" 15-JUN-2004 00:37:21.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please Punishment never works with house rabbits (indoor, neutered, companion pet rabbits) either. NEVER. Negative reinforcement, No never. They are too intelligent and social for it. And they have memories that don't quit -- Heather -----Original Message----- From: Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc. [mailto:info@kerwoodwolf.com] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 3:54 PM To: Geiger; 'Cecilia Lambert'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Help from an Ethologist, please Please excuse my jumping in "midstream" but since this was posted to the list I cannot help but respond. CeAnn asked for my advice also concerning this coyote pup and my advice did not incorporate punishment based techniques. We had a similar situation once with a coyote pup of approximately the same age. She is now an adult -- friendly to her main caregivers, still shy of strangers but quite content and comfortable here. She was NEVER punished for her behavior as a pup. She will not be punished as an adult either. Similarly, with our hand-reared wolves, we NEVER use punishment as a method of "training" or socialization. Punishment may or may not work with domestic dog breeds (that is a whole new topic and/or other argument) but it does not work well for wild species, be they wild-born or captive hand-reared. Vivian Singer-Ferris Executive Director Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc. info@kerwoodwolf.com www.kerwoodwolf.com Tel: (519) 247-1118 Fax: (519) 247-9876 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geiger" To: "'Cecilia Lambert'" ; Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:33 PM Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please Everyone uses punishment based techniques. Some are honest enough to admit it. I am better described as a pet psychiatrist anyway. I have posted this to the list because everyone should know how narrow minded and ignorant you are. Jackie PErkins -----Original Message----- From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:30 AM To: Geiger Subject: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please I do not use punishment based techniques. That is why I asked for Ethologists to respond. I can tell from your web site that you are not an Ethologist. CeAnn --- Geiger wrote: > I will assume a coyote is similar to a dog (big > assumption). 4 weeks old: he > should not be weaned yet and requires the structure > and discipline received > from dam and litter. Are there other similar aged > pups at least he could be > put with? He also needs possibly a head collar and > deference program. Many > books could be written about these to explain the > practice and theory. If > you require info about deference and head collars, > perhaps we should talk > off list. He should not be isolated. > Regards, > Jackie PErkins > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:38 AM > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Help from an Ethologist, please > > I just got in a four week old coyote puppy. He is > doing his threat gape and biting me. In seventeen > years of working with wild coyote puppies, I have > never had this happen. > He was found in an apartment complex. Who knows > what he may have gone through. Possibly children > throwing stones at him. > I have him in a kennel cab. He just cowers in the > back corner. I have done the calling puppy sounds > like Mom makes when I bring him food. He does not > react to the sounds at all. We are going on our > third > day. Nothing has changed. > Erich tells me to just leave him alone, but I have > to clean out the kennel cab. I have to towel him to > get him out. This just makes things worse. > The gape first starts as a startle response in > puppies > Could it be that his eyesight isn't good? Any tips > at > all, using innate behaviors would be appreciated. > CeAnn > > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" "John R. Lane" 15-JUN-2004 03:58:09.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Was Seligman's using the yawn as an example even correct, Let alone the theory based on it? > The point is Seligman began the notion of psychological preparedness with > one short example of dogs being unable to learn to yawn on cue. That seems > to have been the basis for future research and assumptions. If the > foundation is rotten, so is the tree. Hello Jackie and list, My computer has been out of action for sometime so I haven't been able to respond regarding this interesting topic. I was waiting till you returned to before I responded but then my computer went down. I have further comments to make regarding the video training but first: I am going to throw a spanner in the works in the way of asking you and everyone else to step a long way back in this process way back and indeed examine the use of a dog's supposed inabilty to yawn on cue by Seligman to prove this point. My question or more exactly my challenge is: (and not only to you) prove to me and everyone else scientifically( preferably with empirical data studies but certainly with reference to more than just one person's popular writings. Don't misunderstand me here I am not saying this person necessarily is wrong. I will certainly be attending her seminar and training camps here next month as I believe I can learn much from her. So I have no axe to grind in this area. ) that yawning in canines is necessarily solely an indicator of an internal state of stress. I notice Dr Susan Hetts and several others asked this question in different forms earlier. This was before you returned so perhaps it slipped your notice. I am going to put a proposition that perhaps it's purposeful use by canines is little more in actual fact than a "soliciting" behaviour that is mostly used, because of the responses of life learning, in one situation rather than others. If this premise is correct then there certainly would be preparedness. It just hasn't been activated by circumstances in the enviroment. The effect of nurture on nature. We now know the two are so intertwined as to be unseperable. My basis for putting this proposition is because I have seen many other supposed stress indicators/calming signals used for soliciting and not just as stress indicators but as purposeful attention and food solicitors. A classic (anecdotal only) example I can give is that I went out on a case last year and discovered along with other things that this spaniel had been inadvertently trained by untintentional reinforcement to engage in fast lick lipping to solicit food. I was able to almost completely extinguish this behaviour towards me by using simple extinguishment methods ( removing the strongest reinforcer there was for this behaviour i.e. my attention and any food). By also responding with R+ when the licking paused for long enough that I could reliably say it had purposefully been stopped by the animal.. I have seen pawing at the ground used in the same way. I have seen turning away used in the same way. This is the reason why I caution against seeing abc behaviour in canines as always equalling xyz state in canines. You absolutely must read the whole situation to predict. Not just part of it. To state that the yawning that dogs do under duress may not have a "preparedness" to yawn in other circumstances may not in fact be correct. There was a very good video study recently that gave a number of very very experienced trainers a single snapshot in time of two animals interactions and asked them to try and predict what came next. The ones who answered that they weren't given enough information with this single snapshot had it right. This was shown very graphically when the rest of the video was released. Let's hear from others on this basis before I go to the video example. A side note to many in this discussion after now seeing some of the correspondence on this subject from both sides. Stick to the issues under discussion and don't diverge into personal attacks because of your personal opposing training philosiphies. If I want to debate these issues I will do so elsewhere. Or under a totally different heading. Please do the same. Regards John L. New Zealand. From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 15-JUN-2004 05:08:49.97 To: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" "Heather", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please --- Heather wrote: > Punishment never works with house rabbits (indoor, > neutered, companion pet > rabbits) either. NEVER. Rabbits sound just like coyotes and wolves. Have you ever had a small one that threatened you? If I offer this one food, he does his threat gape, followed by a bite. That is a real problem, because he has to eat, but I don,t want to reinforce the biteing by giving him the food. He is in his safe space behind the refrigerator. There isn't room for me to put a bowl back there. I can leave a bowl of food at the entrance to his safe place, but then he won't take it until late at night. He was dehydrated when he was brought to the vet. and was given fluids before I brought him home, but that is a concern for me if he is only going to eat once a day. I have been doing this for seventeen years and this is a first for me. Dr. klinghammer says that I am just getting impatient in my old age. He has faith that I will figure it out. He is probably correct about my impatience. I just don't want to reinforce a behavior that this pup and I will have to live with the next few years. CeAnn > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > > __________________________________ .> ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 15-JUN-2004 05:51:19.10 To: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" CC: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" "Heather", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Help from an Ethologist, please >If I > offer this one food, he does his threat gape, followed > by a bite. That is a real problem, because he has to > eat, but I don,t want to reinforce the biteing by > giving him the food. Would you necessarily be reinforcing the biting, though? I would have thought it was arguable that the way he behaves is simply the result of very extreme fear and that frequent small offerings of food would train him to associate you with pleasant outcomes and reduce the fear which is causing the bites. If he was a feral cat I'd say this was perfectly normal behaviour and I'd expect the threats to decrease as he progressed to associating me with food. Is there any way (e.g. offering food on tongs) you can give him the food without actually getting bitten? ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029