From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 1-JUN-1997 10:19:09.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Neuticles for dogs! Reply to message from k9acad@iafrica.com of Fri, 30 May > >Does anyone know who manufactures Neuticles (testicle implants) or where they >can be obtained? > >Thank you in anticipation. >********************************************************** >NAME : GLYNNE ANDERSON >ADDRESS: Canine Academy > 32 Hospital Rd., Hillcrest 3610, > KwaZula Natal, South Africa. >TEL/FAX: (031) 751958 >E-mail : k9acad@iafrica.com >********************************************************** I hope such a device is unavailable. As the only reason I can think of to use a "neutricle" is to attempt to cheat in a show or trial ambience. If so, considering that such competitions are basically to aid in the selection of reproductive representatives of the species, it would be about the ultimate in unethical products. -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) Animal Behavior Clinic Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 216/826-0013 Fax: 234-3407 From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" 1-JUN-1997 11:26:44.28 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Neuticles for dogs! Interesting comment. However this product is available and not a joke. Try email: Neuticles@msn.com Reproductive selection would'nt really be an issue - would it? But you've overlooked probably the main motivation ... owner ego! GLYNNE ANDERSON > I hope such a device is unavailable. As the only reason I can > think of to use a "neutricle" is to attempt to cheat in a show or > trial ambience. If so, considering that such competitions are > basically to aid in the selection of reproductive representatives of > the species, it would be about the ultimate in unethical products. > > DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > Animal Behavior Clinic > Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 > 216/826-0013 Fax: 234-3407 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 1-JUN-1997 12:09:37.91 To: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Neuticles for dogs! >Interesting comment. However this product is available and not a joke. >Try email: Neuticles@msn.com >Reproductive selection would'nt really be an issue - would it? But you've >overlooked probably the main motivation ... owner ego! >GLYNNE ANDERSON > >> I hope such a device is unavailable. As the only reason I can >> think of to use a "neutricle" is to attempt to cheat in a show or >> trial ambience. If so, considering that such competitions are >> basically to aid in the selection of reproductive representatives of >> the species, it would be about the ultimate in unethical products. >> >> DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) >> Animal Behavior Clinic >> Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 >> 216/826-0013 Fax: 234-3407 It is hard to see that the possession of prosthetic testicles will aid the dog. Furthermore would the dog be aware of disappointment in the eye of the owner surveying an empty atrophying scrotal area? My worry as a harvester of such organs is that the not infrequent post surgical swelling and disturbance of the operation site due to the altered venous and lymphatic drainage (and in no way dependent on surgical technique) might provide undue opportunities for complication if such prostheses were present. Intriguing though, that the female hyaena gets some "social cachet" from the possession of false scrotal structures along with the penile sized clitoris? The question must be "who are we fooling?" Robin From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 1-JUN-1997 12:20:39.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Neuticles for dogs! Reply to message from k9acad@iafrica.com of Sun, 01 Jun > > >Interesting comment. However this product is available and not a joke. >Try email: Neuticles@msn.com >Reproductive selection would'nt really be an issue - would it? Why not? The monorchids whose owners might most want to use such an implant are fertile, but highly undesirable for reproduction. I do personally know of one case years ago (before silicon) of a dachsy who showed up in a show ring with one tescicle and one glass marble in his scrotum. But you've >overlooked probably the main motivation ... owner ego! And of course we don't have to worry about the ethics of an owner whose ego is sick enough to worry about the esthetics of his dog's southern exposure do we? >GLYNNE ANDERSON > >> I hope such a device is unavailable. As the only reason I can >> think of to use a "neutricle" is to attempt to cheat in a show or >> trial ambience. If so, considering that such competitions are >> basically to aid in the selection of reproductive representatives of >> the species, it would be about the ultimate in unethical products. >> >> DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) >> Animal Behavior Clinic >> Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 >> 216/826-0013 Fax: 234-3407 -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) Animal Behavior Clinic Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 216/826-0013 Fax: 234-3407 From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" 1-JUN-1997 13:22:10.39 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Neuticles for dogs! Re artificial gonads... FYI This story goes back to Los Angeles in the 1960s when, as I remember, a West LA veterinarian of some fame tried to resolve the male ego problem. No, the client was *not* referred with a behavior problem. The boxer survived nicely. We reported it in the Pet Behavior Newsletter [1996-2] when the new plastic gonies hit the San Francisco press. Steelies are Hot Stuff Many years ago, complying with the client=92s male ego problem, a Los= Angeles veterinarian agreed to implant two medically sterile stainless steel balls to replace the real thing following a gonadectomy on a young male Boxer. Later, one hot summer=92s day, the man was horrified to hear his dog= literally screaming and running around the deck of their swimming pool. Apparently the dog had decided to nap on the hot pool=92s concrete deck, inducing the predictable heat. The owner raced to the house and phoned the veterinarian. _What can I do, Doctor?_ =A0Applying his usual calm, cool, common sense, the veterinarian recommended, _Go out there and throw him in the pool, quick!_ Another gonadectomy solved the problem, although the client=92s ego suffered some bruising. :-) [us] :-((( [dog's owner] Bill Campbell >=20 >> >>Interesting comment. However this product is available and not a joke. >>Try email: Neuticles@msn.com >>Reproductive selection would'nt really be an issue - would it? But= you've=20 >>overlooked probably the main motivation ... owner ego! >>GLYNNE ANDERSON >> >>> I hope such a device is unavailable. As the only reason I can >>> think of to use a "neutricle" is to attempt to cheat in a show or >>> trial ambience. If so, considering that such competitions are=20 >>> basically to aid in the selection of reproductive representatives of >>> the species, it would be about the ultimate in unethical products. >>>=20 >>> DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) >>> Animal Behavior Clinic >>> Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 >>> 216/826-0013 Fax: 234-3407 > >It is hard to see that the possession of prosthetic testicles will >aid the dog. Furthermore would the dog be aware of disappointment in >the eye of the owner surveying an empty atrophying scrotal area? > >My worry as a harvester of such organs is that the not infrequent >post surgical swelling and disturbance of the operation site due to >the altered venous and lymphatic drainage (and in no way dependent on >surgical technique) might provide undue opportunities for >complication if such prostheses were present. > >Intriguing though, that the female hyaena gets some "social >cachet" from the possession of false scrotal structures along with >the penile sized clitoris?=20 > >The question must be "who are we fooling?" > >Robin From: IN%"christison@admin.usask.ca" "Iain Christison" 1-JUN-1997 19:50:52.15 To: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM. Sherwin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Semantics I have just returned fron the Fifth International Livestock Environment Symposium. At a round-table to discuss research priorities it was proposed that the word STRESS should be avoided in future by substituting a more precise term (e.g. excessive heat load, or whatever). After discussion we came to a concensus. (Wow.) Whenever the word STRESS is first used in a presentation, the user should explain what he or she means by the word. Sounds very sensible to me. Much easier than reaching agreement on a meaning. Iain ******************* Dr. Iain Christison Animal and Poultry Science University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon S7N 5B5, Canada iain.christison@usask.ca From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" 2-JUN-1997 02:02:02.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Neuticles for dogs! > >Reproductive selection would'nt really be an issue - would it? > > Why not? The monorchids whose owners might most want to use such > an implant are fertile, but highly undesirable for reproduction. I do > personally know of one case years ago (before silicon) of a dachsy > who showed up in a show ring with one tescicle and one glass marble > in his scrotum. Excellent point. > And of course we don't have to worry about the ethics of an > owner whose ego is sick enough to worry about the esthetics of his > dog's southern exposure do we? "Sick"? Is that a professional diagnosis? From: IN%"a.arnold@dial.pipex.com" 2-JUN-1997 06:40:40.69 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Canine senses Can anyone give me any current references to the way dogs see and smell and hear? What colours are seen by the dog? What is its night vision like? What sounds, from what distance do they hear? What is the power of their olfaction? I have an old Pelican book "The Personality of Animals" by Munro Fox published in 1940 but I am certain there are more recent advances in this subject. The reason for this enquiry is that I am a veterinary surgeon in Colchester and I am writing a novel seen through the eyes of a dog. Thanks in anticipation Adrian Arnold From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 2-JUN-1997 07:13:42.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Semantics -REPONSE >>> Iain Christison 01/06/ 21h50 >>> At a round-table to discuss research priorities it was proposed that the word STRESS should be avoided in future>>>> Ha ha ha ha ha (cynical laughter) >>> by substituting a more precise term (e.g. excessive heat load, or whatever). After discussion we came to a concensus. (Wow.) Whenever the word STRESS is first used in a presentation, the user should explain what he or she means by the word. >>> Yeah, sure. Dream on. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"ez065100@ucdavis.edu" "Valli" 2-JUN-1997 10:59:08.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Neuticles for dogs! Let's look at this topic in another way. If having prosthetic canine testes will in fact allow more people to feel comfortable about sterilizing their male dogs, then how can that be harmful? There is some evidence that people can feel more uncomfortable about sterilizing their male rather than their female dogs, presumedly because the removal of the testes results in an obvious change in the dog's appearance. Think of the pet overpopulation problem in this and many other countries. Any reduction of that number through prevention can only be a good thing, and if having prosthetic testes will convince more people to go ahead and sterilize their dogs, wouldn't this be a good thing? Valli Parthasarathy Dept. of Animal Science University of California Davis, CA 95616 From: IN%"gfb1@email.psu.edu" "G. F. Barbato" 2-JUN-1997 16:06:30.05 To: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: 3-D's Dominance, Dominance, Dominance At 09:25 AM 6/2/97 +0000, you wrote: >Dear Guy > >> btw -- before my memory fails completely.... all this talk of dominance >> rank urges me to shout to the highest hills... "Remember Schjelderup-Ebbe!!!" > >a) Why? >b) Who's forgotten him? > >Mike hi mike... Schjelderup-Ebbe was the 1st person to publish on dominance hierarchies (in chickens, of course) originating the term 'pecking order', and to comment on the role of recognition in dominance relationships. see (1913) Honsenes stemme. Bidrag til honsenes psykologi. Naturenen 37:262-276. and (1922) Beitrage zur Social-psychologie des Haushuhns. Z. Psychol., 88:225-252. in the 30's there were a few english translations as for part (b)... pretty much everybody. as for part (a), its just my eternal quest to reintroduce respect for the fowl as a model for behavioral systems in general and (specifically) as a species. i also like to cite obscure references... : ) anybody remember Aldrovandi??? cheers, guy G. F. Barbato Phone: (814)-865-4481 Graduate Program in Genetics FAX: (814)-865-5691 Dept. Poultry Science Lab: (814)-865-3189 Penn State University Email: gfb1@psu.edu University Park, PA 16802 http://ps235.cas.psu.edu/ From: IN%"mrpounds@ucdavis.edu" "Mary Pounds" 2-JUN-1997 18:02:53.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Neuticles for dogs! Hi all. I have a problem with the use of fake testicles, altho I can see Valli's point (owner ego problems). If a male dog is neutered and fake testicles are placed in the scrotum, the dog should be tatooed with a message such as "not fertile" over the incision area. This would alert any veterinarian who may be presented with this dog for neutering (if the dog was rescued from the SPCA or animal control) or would alert any show judge or potential buyer of the dog to its surgically altered state. I know of a dog who had "three testicles" at a show in Washington State (many years ago). An unethical veterinarian had place a fake testes in the scrotum of a dog with an undescended testes...of course it descended without the owner's notice. The dog and owner were banned from the show circuit and the vet lost his licence! If the dog lost a testes to cancer and the owner still wanted to breed him and maintain a "normal" appearence, I might be more sympathic. As a whole, this could be viewed as unethical from the human side, not because of what is done to the animal. There is just alot of room here for deceit by humans about the dog. Sue Pounds, DVM (in practice for 20 years and have seen alot) Animal Science Dept, UCD From: IN%"bilbrj@ccaa.edu" "Miss Jenny" 2-JUN-1997 23:21:34.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Olfactory senses in dogs Does anyone have any documented information regarding an animal's (specifically dogs) olfactory senses? I recently saw something about dogs being able to "sniff out" cancerous tumors on humans. Any ideas as to what they are recognizing here? Obviously dogs are used to sniff out drugs in airports etc., but does anyone have any info regarding any medical uses? Thank you. Jennifer L. Bilbrey *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Jennifer L. Bilbrey bilbrj@ccaa.edu Concordia College cygnus@neont.com Ann Arbor, MI http://www.ccaa.edu/~bilbrj "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM. Sherwin" 3-JUN-1997 04:58:08.08 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: 3-D's Dominance, Dominance, Dominance Dear All, I have a couple of further comments regarding previous submissions on the subject of dominance. Mike seems to be suggesting that Dominance is the label we should give to the relationship between two individuals; the relationship which confers priority of access. Is this analogous to other labels of relationship, e.g. Brother, or Manager? If so, isnUt the point in which we are most interested (as applied ethologists), the function or effect of this relationship? As scientists we are interested in measuring, yet I do not know of any method to measure the relationship Brother - but I do know how to measure how much he will he help me when things get tough. The second related point is that even if we accept dominance is the label for this relationship, it is well known that priority of access differs between resources. Therefore, Dominance is context specific. In reality, this means that whenever we use the word Dominance, it should be qualified by relating it to the resource used for its determination. This suggests that when people write about dominance-aggression, they should perhaps be writing about Dominance-as-measured-by-priority-of-access-to-food-aggression!!! Obviously this makes life for ethologists a little difficult - but then we would all prefer life to be a bit more simple ;) This problem was recognised in the Spheres of Dominance approach authored by Hand (1976 I think) and is possibly the underlying principle of dominance in other animals - there might often be little generality: maybe our anthropocentric experience of social organisation makes this difficult for us to accept. Overall, my major concern is with the incorrect assumption that if we record agonistic and/or aggressive acts, this necessarily predicts priority of access to (all) resources. It is well documented that whilst two males are busy beating the hell out of each other to mate with a female, a third will sneak in and gain priority of access. Although this might be a rather spectacular departure from the conventional principle of dominance and its measurement by aggression, its evolution as a behavioural strategy indicates that we should be careful in being too general in our thinking on this subject. Regards, Chris Sherwin University of Bristol From: IN%"schilder@neuretp.biol.ruu.nl" 3-JUN-1997 07:23:19.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: scent perception in dogs Olfactory sense in dogs A new Phd thesis appeared last march on police dogs identifying humans bu s= cent. This thesis was written by dr Adee Schoon. =20 Three of the chapters of her thesis have already been published; one in App= l=20 Anim Behav Sci 49 (1996): 257-267: Schoon, G.A.A. Scenty identification lin= e-ups=20 by dogs trained in a tube-retrieving method: experimental design and forens= ic=20 application. The thesis, which contains a summary on scent perception in dogs, can be=20 obtained through prof C. ten Cate, University of Leiden, Ethology section,= PO=20 box 9516, 2300 RA Leiden, the Netherlands. Regards dr Matthijs.B.H,. Schilder, University of Utrecht Netherlands From: IN%"schilder@neuretp.biol.ruu.nl" 3-JUN-1997 08:53:36.71 To: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: 3-D's Dominance, Dominance, Dominance >Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 11:52:52 +0100 (BST) >From: "CM. Sherwin" >Subject: 3-D's Dominance, Dominance, Dominance >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > >Dear All, > Chris wrote:=20 >I have a couple of further comments regarding previous submissions on the >subject of dominance. > >Mike seems to be suggesting that Dominance is the label we should give to >the relationship between two individuals; the relationship which confers >priority of access. Is this analogous to other labels of relationship, >e.g. Brother, or Manager? If so, isnUt the point in which we are most >interested (as applied ethologists), the function or effect of this >relationship? As scientists we are interested in measuring, yet I do not >know of any method to measure the relationship Brother - but I do know how >to measure how much he will he help me when things get tough. > >The second related point is that even if we accept dominance is the label >for this relationship, it is well known that priority of access differs >between resources. Therefore, Dominance is context specific. In reality, >this means that whenever we use the word Dominance, it should be qualified >by relating it to the resource used for its determination. This suggests >that when people write about dominance-aggression, they should perhaps be >writing about >Dominance-as-measured-by-priority-of-access-to-food-aggression!!! >Obviously this makes life for ethologists a little difficult - but then we >would all prefer life to be a bit more simple ;) This problem was >recognised in the Spheres of Dominance approach authored by Hand (1976 I >think) and is possibly the underlying principle of dominance in other >animals - there might often be little generality: maybe our >anthropocentric experience of social organisation makes this difficult for >us to accept. >=20 >Overall, my major concern is with the incorrect assumption that if we >record agonistic and/or aggressive acts, this necessarily predicts >priority of access to (all) resources. It is well documented that whilst >two males are busy beating the hell out of each other to mate with a >female, a third will sneak in and gain priority of access. Although this >might be a rather spectacular departure from the conventional principle of >dominance and its measurement by aggression, its evolution as a >behavioural strategy indicates that we should be careful in being too >general in our thinking on this subject. > >Regards, > >Chris Sherwin >University of Bristol Dear Chris,=20 If it would be true, dat dominance is context-dependent, what good is = it=20 then to continu to use the term dominance? In my view it would loose its=20 meaning. Dominance can best be use as an intervening variable, a shortcut to describ= e a=20 number of asymmetries within a relationship, as has been advocated by Hin= de=20 (1974) and others. A rank order is made up of the network of dyadic domin= ance=20 relationships. For example, If dog A shows high posturing towards dog B, Dog A also threat= hens=20 B more often than the reverse, Dog B shows more often submissive behaviour= =20 towards A and dog B more often gives way to A etc, then one can simply desc= ribe=20 this relationship as: dog A is dominant over dog B. Only then, dominance reflects a basic aspect of a relationship between two= =20 individuals. Indeed, dominance is only one aspect of a social relationship = and=20 only one aspect of a social organization of a group of animals.=20 Exceptions may occur (for example, alpha wolves let their offspring fee= d=20 first), but these exceptions this do not change the rank order at all. If=20 serious conflicts happen, still the alphas get their way! The exceptions=20 therefore, include behavioural rules, which apply only in specific conditio= ns=20 and not in others. For example, if the feeding situation is critical, alpha= =20 wolves may well feed first and let their offspring die. An interesting aspect of dominance is formal dominance. That is to say = that=20 ther e are specific signals, that uniquely convey the dominance status,=20 whatever happens. In dogs, this is the posture they take, In chimpanzee's o= ne =20 finds a special form of greetings and in monkeys, bared teeth faces functi= on as=20 signal of formal dominance. Moreover, in these cases the behaviours concer= ned =20 are highly ritualized, highly unidirectional and rank=3Dorders made up from= =20 asymmetries in the distribution of these behaviours are highly linear. Some papers, that investigate and describe phenomena of dominance in these = lines=20 in different species are: -Van Hooff and Wensing: (1987) Dominance and its behaivoural measures in a= =20 captive wolf pack In: Frank H> (ed) Man and Wolf. dr JUnk Publishers, Dordr= echt,=20 Netherlands -van den Bos and de Cock Buning (1994) Social behaviour of domestic cats: a= =20 study of dominance in a group of female laboratory cats. Ethology 98:14-37 -van Dierendonck, de Vries and Schilder (1996) An analysis of dominance, it= s=20 behavioural parameters and possible determinants in a herd of icelandic hor= ses=20 in captivity. Neth, J of Zoology 45:362-385. -Noe, de Waal and van Hooff (1980) Types of dominance in a chimpanzee colon= y.=20 Folia Primatol. 34:90-110. Best regards, de Matthijs Schilder Utrecht university From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 3-JUN-1997 09:32:54.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Who buys these false nuts? I took a look at the neuticles website (http://www.webpost.net/neuticles/index.html) and noticed the claim that "Dogs neutered with NEUTICLES do not realize they have been neutered" I didn't know quite what to make of this claim. Do dogs normally know that they have been neutered? I suspect not. Thus to claim that dogs with neuticles don't know they have been neutered as though this was a special consequence of having the implants seems a bit disingenuous on the part of the manufacturer, doesn't it? Maybe they mean that dogs with neuticles look and behave the same as if they hadn't been castrated. Well maybe they look the same, but if they still act like sexually mature male dogs (which of course they won't), you might as well give him a vasectomy instead. Do any of you dog people out there know if there is any evidence that dogs suffer from psychological trauma, feelings of loss, grief, changes in social status, altered body image etc which can be attributed to the cosmetic lack of visible testicles following castration, rather than to changing hormone levels? The real question is DO NEUTICLES BENEFIT A DOG IN ANY DETECTABLE WAY? Or are they more likely to benefit male (Pit Bull?) owners whose own feelings of masculinity are primarily dependent upon the size of their dogs' bollocks? Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"ipedal@xnet.com" "Fred Goldenson" 3-JUN-1997 21:33:18.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Aggression testing? Is there a 'standard' set of measurements for aggressive behavior in dogs? We are attempting to study aggression in dogs and need to be able to assess those dogs which are more likely to bite other dogs or be aggresive toward people. TIA, Fred From: IN%"schilder@neuretp.biol.ruu.nl" 4-JUN-1997 02:18:30.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Aggression testing? >Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:34:28 -0500 >From: Fred Goldenson >Subject: Aggression testing? >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > >Is there a 'standard' set of measurements for aggressive behavior in dogs? >We are attempting to study aggression in dogs and need to be able to assess >those dogs which are more likely to bite other dogs or be aggresive toward >people. TIA, Fred Dear Fred, Yes, there is a standard test, developed to test aggressive tendencies in d= ogs. This test has been developed by two former collegues of mine (Planta & Nett= o)=20 and will be published in a special issue of Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci., to app= ear=20 within a few weeks/months. dr M.B.H. Schilder Utrecht University From: IN%"Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch" "Beat Wechsler" 4-JUN-1997 04:11:57.18 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Outdoor Pig Production were presented at a meeting. The final report of this project contains the following summary: In a project supported by the Swiss Federal Veterinary Office different aspects of outdoor pig production were studied from 1994 to 1997. The aim of the project was to assess the feasibility of outdoor pig production under Swiss conditions. Practicability, animal welfare and economic considerations were taken as feasibility criteria. The results of the study should help farmers who intend to start with outdoor pig production. The project team consisted of experts from different fields to guarantee for a wide and interdisciplinary approach. Data collection was primarily done by a scientific assistant and by a group of farmers that were testing outdoor pig production on their farm. Both breeding sows and fattening pigs were studied. The main results are: ? The following installations are necessary to start outdoor pig production: huts (isolated for farrowing and lactating sows); electrical fencing with two lines 20 and 40 cm above ground; feeding devices that can not be moved by the pigs (sheltered when food is offered ad libitum); drinking devices with a water tank or underground water-pipes (during winter supplying water can often be quite time consuming); wallowing places and shelters for periods of high ambient temperature; devices to load and transport the pigs. ? For farrowing sows feedstaffs produced on the farm, sometimes available in the fields on which the pigs are kept, proved successful. However, an adjusted additional feed is necessary which should be offered in rationed form. A single feed is preferable for lactating sows and should be offered twice a day. For fattening pigs ad libitum feeding with dispensers especially constructed for outdoor pig production is most efficient. Feedstuffs produced on the farm can also be used. ? Results on reproductive performance of outdoor sows are based on 139 litters. On average 24.2 and 21.2 piglets per sow and year were born alive and weaned, respecti-vely. Mean cycle length was 163.3 days resulting in 2.24 litters per sow and year. Average litter weight at weaning (35 days old) was 116.7kg. ? Results on the performance of fattening pigs are based on 594 animals. They had a mean age of 153.2 days at slaughter. Total feed consumption per pig was 218.1kg. The average daily weight gain was 696g and energy- efficiency was 37.2MJ DE per kilogram lifeweight gain. Feed conversion was better during summer than during winter. During summer it was better with rationed than with ad libitum feeding. During winter it was the other way round. ? At an average the proportion of lean meat of the fatteners was 54.5 %. The mean jodine number of the backfat was 60.7, 61.6 for pigs produced during winter and 59.9 for those produced during summer. For ad libitum feeding of fatteners a maximal content of poly- unsaturated fatty acids of 0.8g/MJ DE is recommended. ? During the study period there was no occurrence of infectious diseases with lethal consequences for piglets as well as fatteners. Animal losses occurred mainly during the first three days after birth. Crushing by the sow was the main reason for piglet mortality. About 35 % of the livers of fatteners were confiscated at slaughter. This is an indication for parasite problems in this production system. Most livers were confiscated because of scars of migration of larvae of ascaris suum. Echinococcus multilocularis was proved in 3 cases. There were remarkably few cases of pleurisy. ? Mean veterinary costs per sow and year were 60.- sFr. Most important were the costs for erysipelas and parvovirus vaccination (up to 32.60 sFr). Veterinary costs for fatteners were 1.79 to 2.28 sFr per animal from weaning to slaughter. ? Ethological observations showed that the pigs regularly used the occupation facilities provided. Activity was mainly influenced by daytime and climate and for were used a lot. The results indicate that animal welfare is good in outdoor pig production. ? During summer time temperature can be a problem for sows and fattening pigs. The animals should therefore have access to a wallowing place. For piglets it is sufficient to provide sheltered places. There was no case in which piglet death had to be attributed to low ambient temperature. Voluminous, well insulated huts are best suited for lactating sows and piglets. ? Based on animal excretions the area provided per fattening pig should be about 200m2. For sows an area of 300-500m2 should be provided for a four months utilization of a plot. In the vicinity of the huts urination frequency was high. This can result in areas with high nutrient enrichments. It is therefore recommended to change the position of the huts from time to time. ? The potential of nitrate leaching is high on outdoor pig plots, especially on light organic soils. Level fields with plant cover are preferable to minimize the risk of runoff and leaching. ? From the view of soil structure sandy soils are most suitable for outdoor pig production. On heavy soils pigs should be kept only in regions with low precipitation. Loamy clay soils are not suited. ? Labor input per sows is 10.02 minutes per animal and day with a herd size of 4 sows. With a herd size of 20 sows this time is reduced to 5.48 minutes. With a group of 20 fatteners 2.19 minutes per animal per day are needed; with 40 animals 0.68 minutes and with 80 animals 0.34 minutes. The higher labor input as compared to indoor housing systems is mainly due to the bigger distances that have to be covered. Under bad weather conditions working conditions are not optimal. ? During the first year of outdoor pig production the economic result was negative on most farms included in the study. This was due to the initial stage of the production with only partial utilization of capacity for fatteners as well as to low market prices. For the second year all but one farm achieved a financial gain. Compared to indoor housing systems costs for feed and labor input were higher and fixed costs lower. The results of the study show that outdoor pig production basically is economic. Results were better for fattening pigs than for breeding sows. In conclusion, we could show that outdoor pig production is feasible in Switzerland both with respect to animal welfare and to economic considerations (taking into account the market situation of the study period). However, it is important that natural conditions and the farm structure are favorable and that the farmer is well educated and motivated. The report (Ingold, U. and Kunz, P., editors 1997: Freilandhaltung von Schweinen. Schweizerische Ingenieurschule fur Landwirtschaft, Zollikofen; Landwirtschaftliche Beratungszentrale Lindau; 153 pages, in German) can be ordered (costs: sFr 30.-- plus sFr. 6.-- postage) from: Landwirtschaftliche Beratungszentrale Lindau 8315 Lindau Phone: 0041 52 354 97 00 Fax: 0041 52 354 97 97 e-mail: lbl@agri.ch --------------------------------------------------------------- Beat Wechsler Swiss Federal Veterinary Office Testing Station for Animal Housing Systems SMTP: Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch X.400: G=Beat;S=Wechsler;O=fat;A=admin;C=ch FAX: ++41 52 365 11 90 Phone: ++41 52 368 31 31 From: IN%"Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch" "Beat Wechsler" 4-JUN-1997 06:04:19.97 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Swiss animal welfare regulations regulations. The new regulations will be enacted by 1 July 1997. In the following, I briefly summarize some marked changes concerning the housing of cattle and pigs. Calves (older than 2 weeks and up to 4 months of age) have to be kept in group housing systems. As an exception, calves may be kept singly in huts from which they have permanent access to an outside yard. Housing systems in use have to be adapted within 5 years. Calves (up to 4 months of age) may not be kept tethered. Housing systems in use have to be changed within 5 years. These two regulations are in accordance with new regulations of the EC that were enforced in January (97/2/EC) and February (97/182/EC) 1997, respectively. The lying area of calves (up to 4 months of age), diary cattle, heifers in an advanced state of pregnancy and breeding bulls has to be covered with sufficient and adequate litter. Housing systems in use have to be adapted within 5 years. With the other categories of cattle, the lying area can be covered with sufficient and adequate litter or with an other soft, deformable material (i.e. hard, fully perforated floors are no longer accepted). This regulation concerns only new and rebuilt housing systems. Cattle which are kept tethered shall be allowed to move outside the stable on at least 90 days per year. Sow may not be tethered with girth tethers. (Neck tethers have already been banned in 1981). Housing systems in use have to be changed within 5 years. This regulation is in accordance with a regulation of the EC dated November 1991 (91/630/EC). Pregnant sows as well as farrowing/lactating sows may not be kept in crates (except for a maximum of 10 days during the mating period). Housing systems in use have to be replaced within 10 years. The laying area in pig housing systems may not be made of a perforated floor (i.e. pens with a fully perforated floor are no longer accepted). This regulation concerns only new and rebuilt housing systems. The detailed regulations (in German) can be found at: http://www.bvet.admin.ch/d/Tierschutz/AenderungTSchV.html Beat Wechsler --------------------------------------------------------------- Beat Wechsler Swiss Federal Veterinary Office Testing Station for Animal Housing Systems CH-8356 Taenikon - Switzerland SMTP: Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch FAX: ++41 52 365 11 90 Phone: ++41 52 368 31 31 From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 4-JUN-1997 06:58:10.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Aggression testing? The term 'standard' implies widely used and accepted. Something that hasn't been published yet doesn't fit that criterion. I don't believe there is a single method of empirical measurement of aggressiveness that has been used by numerous researchers and could be considered the 'standard' in the profession. I would recommend the works of Reisner, e.g. Reisner et al. (1994) Risk factors for behavior-related euthanasia among dominant-aggressive dogs: 110 cases (1989-1992). She addresses numerous ways of empirically evaluating aggression, e.g. severity, predictability, frequency, target of aggression, etc. Sharon Crowell-Davis > Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 10:21:25 +0100 > From: schilder@neuretp.biol.ruu.nl > Subject: Re: Aggression testing? > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > >Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:34:28 -0500 > >From: Fred Goldenson > >Subject: Aggression testing? > >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > > >Is there a 'standard' set of measurements for aggressive behavior in dogs? > >We are attempting to study aggression in dogs and need to be able to assess > >those dogs which are more likely to bite other dogs or be aggresive toward > >people. TIA, Fred > > Dear Fred, > > Yes, there is a standard test, developed to test aggressive tendencies in dogs. > This test has been developed by two former collegues of mine (Planta & Netto) > and will be published in a special issue of Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci., to appear > within a few weeks/months. > > dr M.B.H. Schilder > Utrecht University > ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 4-JUN-1997 07:13:37.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Aggression testing? The Reisner reference is in JAVMA 205:855-863. Sorry to have been incomplete. > Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 08:57:02 -0500 (EST) > From: Sharon Crowell-Davis > Subject: Re: Aggression testing? > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Organization: UGA College of Vet. Med > Priority: normal > The term 'standard' implies widely used and accepted. Something that > hasn't been published yet doesn't fit that criterion. I don't > believe there is a single method of empirical measurement of > aggressiveness that has been used by numerous researchers and could > be considered the 'standard' in the profession. > > I would recommend the works of Reisner, e.g. Reisner et al. (1994) > Risk factors for behavior-related euthanasia among > dominant-aggressive dogs: 110 cases (1989-1992). She addresses > numerous ways of empirically evaluating aggression, e.g. severity, > predictability, frequency, target of aggression, etc. > > Sharon Crowell-Davis > > > Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 10:21:25 +0100 > > From: schilder@neuretp.biol.ruu.nl > > Subject: Re: Aggression testing? > > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > > >Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:34:28 -0500 > > >From: Fred Goldenson > > >Subject: Aggression testing? > > >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > > > > >Is there a 'standard' set of measurements for aggressive behavior in dogs? > > >We are attempting to study aggression in dogs and need to be able to assess > > >those dogs which are more likely to bite other dogs or be aggresive toward > > >people. TIA, Fred > > > > Dear Fred, > > > > Yes, there is a standard test, developed to test aggressive tendencies in dogs. > > This test has been developed by two former collegues of mine (Planta & Netto) > > and will be published in a special issue of Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci., to appear > > within a few weeks/months. > > > > dr M.B.H. Schilder > > Utrecht University > > > ********************************************** > Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD > Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists > College of Veterinary Medicine > University of Georgia > Athens, Georgia 30602 > scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu > > > If a little knowledge is dangerous, > where is the man who has so much > as to be out of danger? > > T.H. Huxley > On Elementary Instruction in Physiology > ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"marithe@mandic.com.br" "maria thereza amaral" 4-JUN-1997 08:57:14.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dominance >To: whitroth_NO_SPAM@wwa.com (Kathryn Roth-Whitworth) >From: maria thereza amaral >Subject: Re: Dominance > >At 16:51 02/06/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Suggest you check out the rec.pets.dogs.* FAQ's and newsgroups. I've >>noted that many of your questions have been discussed there previously, >>and probably continue to arise and be further discussed. >> >>Kate >> >> Kate : > > Thanks for your attention , and I would some help : I never participate of a newsgroups and I do not know how to do this. I really thaks if you could help me . > maria thereza cera galvao do amaral veterinarian ( medica veterinaria ) homeopatician ( homeopata ) marithe@mandic.com.br Sao Paulo - Brasil From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" 4-JUN-1997 11:49:13.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Who buys these false nuts? >Do any of you dog people out there know if there is any evidence that dogs >suffer from psychological trauma, feelings of loss, grief, changes in >social status, altered body image etc which can be attributed to the >cosmetic lack of visible testicles following castration, rather than to >changing hormone levels? >wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" Jon, et. al., I documented this type of psychic trauma in _Modern Veterinary Practice_ in the mid 70s. I first noted it in a newly post-castrate German Shepherd Dog. The condition is marked by constant, intense lingual attention to the operated area, accompanied by high-pitched whining. I named the condition *separation anxiety.* For reasons still unclear to me, the label was never widely adopted. Bill Campbell From: IN%"9610916@mull.sms.ed.ac.uk" "VICTORIA SANDILANDS" 4-JUN-1997 13:21:52.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: false nuts I think that this highly amusing discussion is an attempt by male dog owners to make themselves feel better at making their dogs 'half a man'. A bit of empathy going on here? Definitely. From a woman's point of view, nuts or no nuts, who gives a damn? (On dogs, that is). And in light of all the trouble breast implants give humans, might'nt neuticles cause dogs problems later on? (re: stainless steel balls that one of our members had inserted into his dog, who suffered on a hot day)? From a welfare point of view, surely this is much worse than 'separation anxiety'! Victoria Sandilands MSc in Applied Animal Behaviour and Animal Welfare student Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh West Mains Road Edinburgh Scotland From: IN%"9610916@mull.sms.ed.ac.uk" "VICTORIA SANDILANDS" 4-JUN-1997 13:33:45.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Who buys these false nuts? Here, here, Jon. Common sense, and from the mouth of a male, too! Victoria Sandilands. MSc in Applied Animal Behaviour and Animal Welfare student Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh West Mains Road Edinburgh Scotland From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 4-JUN-1997 13:50:08.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: EEG in Cattle. Does anyone out there have experience of any kind of EEG study on cattle or other large animals? Specifically I would like to know what it would take to be able to examine event-related potentials in response to an auditory stimulus, without drilling holes in the animal's head. Is this feasible in practice or are the microvoltages just too small to detect over muscle and EEG noise? I'd be happy to get any advice or comments on circuits, electrode placement, interpretation etc. I'd even like to be told to forget it because it's too difficult, if that is the case. Thanks Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 4-JUN-1997 13:58:51.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: EEG in cattle Oops, typo! In one part of my earlier message I meant to ask whether one problem might be the ratio of EEG voltage to noisy muscle and ECG (i.e. heart) potentials. Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"richards@hula.net" 4-JUN-1997 20:31:26.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Neuticles Bill Campbell wrote: >The condition is marked by constant, intense lingual attention to the >operated area, accompanied by high-pitched whining. >I named the condition *separation anxiety.* For reasons still unclear to me, >the label was never widely adopted. Bill, how do we know that it is not "ghost limb syndrome"? As I recall from a newspaper article, neuticles were developed by a vet (male, of course) to make his dog feel more "complete." I can't imagine that neuticles would make any difference to a dog. Certainly, the other dogs know they're fake! But, it does bring to mind some interesting questions: Would size extra-large neuticles in a small dog inspire fear in larger dogs? Could they have been developed in the past, out of brass, thus giving rise to the contemporary expression? Would they offer protection to the scrotal area during a particularly vicious dog fight? My sentiments on the issue have been eloquently expressed by Jon Watts: >The real question is DO NEUTICLES BENEFIT A DOG IN ANY DETECTABLE WAY? Or >are they more likely to benefit male (Pit Bull?) owners whose own feelings >of masculinity are primarily dependent upon the size of their dogs' >bollocks? Testily, Dawn From: IN%"UKNIERIM@Itt.tiho-hannover.de" "Dr. Ute Knierim" 5-JUN-1997 00:37:54.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Outdoor Pig Production Dear Beat, > In a project supported by the Swiss Federal Veterinary Office different aspects of > outdoor pig production were studied from 1994 to 1997. The aim of the project > was to assess the feasibility of outdoor pig production under Swiss conditions. > Practicability, animal welfare and economic considerations were taken as > feasibility criteria. The results of the study should help farmers who intend to start > with outdoor pig production. ... was the aspect of nose-ringing considered in this project? Were the pigs nose-ringed, and if not, how was land damage prevented? Did you come to an evaluation and recommendation in view of animal welfare? Best wishes Ute From: IN%"Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch" "Beat Wechsler" 5-JUN-1997 01:11:02.08 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Nose ringing Dear Ute, dear all Nose-ringing was not practised in this research project, although nose-ringing is not forbidden by law in Switzerland. The pigs produced in the project were sold as label pigs, and Swiss consumers would probably not be willing to pay a special price, if the pigs were kept outdoors with nose-rings. With respect to land damage I can inform you that destruction of the soil structure can be considerable if the soil is not suitable. We therefore recommend that pigs should not be kept outdoors in regions with high precipitation and on loamy clay soils. These recommendations are widespread in the literature on outdoor pig production. Best regards, Beat Wechsler --------------------------------------------------------------- Beat Wechsler Swiss Federal Veterinary Office Testing Station for Animal Housing Systems CH-8356 Taenikon - Switzerland SMTP: Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch X.400: G=Beat;S=Wechsler;O=fat;A=admin;C=ch FAX: ++41 52 365 11 90 Phone: ++41 52 368 31 31 From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" 5-JUN-1997 02:01:57.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Who buys these false nuts? Hi Jon Pleased to see you back in form - it was your input that started the ball rolling.(ouch!) I sourced neuticles for a vet who was asked by his patient for the implants, having heard my Xmas broadcast (remember?) on what's hot and what's not for dog Xmas presents this year! Anyhow to cut (ouch!) another story short, I guessed the request was from a bull terrier owner. Yep, it was too, but more interestingly from an ex-client who had brought the dog to me for obsessive tail chasing! No I didn't recommend castrating the dog (it was already done by the rescue society) but I nearly did for the owner who was male, early 60's and an infuriating know all. Anyhow, due to your mail, I am now faced with the possibilty that old Shells may not have been chasing his tail after all but simply trying to take a good look, to check out his rear end!? Now you've got me guessing? GLYNNE ANDERSON. I took a look at the neuticles website > (http://www.webpost.net/neuticles/index.html) and noticed the claim that > > "Dogs neutered with NEUTICLES do not realize they have been neutered" > > I didn't know quite what to make of this claim. Do dogs normally know that > they have been neutered? I suspect not. Thus to claim that dogs with > neuticles don't know they have been neutered as though this was a special > consequence of having the implants seems a bit disingenuous on the part of > the manufacturer, doesn't it? > > Maybe they mean that dogs with neuticles look and behave the same as if > they hadn't been castrated. Well maybe they look the same, but if they > still act like sexually mature male dogs (which of course they won't), you > might as well give him a vasectomy instead. > > Do any of you dog people out there know if there is any evidence that dogs > suffer from psychological trauma, feelings of loss, grief, changes in > social status, altered body image etc which can be attributed to the > cosmetic lack of visible testicles following castration, rather than to > changing hormone levels? > > The real question is DO NEUTICLES BENEFIT A DOG IN ANY DETECTABLE WAY? Or > are they more likely to benefit male (Pit Bull?) owners whose own feelings > of masculinity are primarily dependent upon the size of their dogs' > bollocks? > > Jon > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jon Watts (___) ) ) > University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( > Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) > and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( > Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) > 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& > Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ > S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ > Canada &^%%#$@ > wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 5-JUN-1997 04:34:42.15 To: IN%"richards@hula.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Nautical Not Neuticle >Could they have been developed in the past, out of brass, thus giving rise >to the contemporary expression? > >Testily, >Dawn Indeed not Ma'am. the "monkey" you refer to was a metal block incorporating semicircular sockets, hollows or rings, in which iron cannon balls could be placed and safely left whilst the ship pitched and rolled within normal limits. Howsomedever, in those latitudes which be extremely cold, and the "monkeys" of that era being mostly made of brass (to give the crew yet another fitting to burnish) the contraction of the monkey metal exceeded that of the iron cannon ball. the reduction of the concavity reduced the angle at which the ball could be inclined. So the cannon balls would roll off the monkey...d'you see? Robin Sailor, Castrator, Anti-Neuticlist From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 5-JUN-1997 06:41:26.20 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Neuticles I'm not sure we even have to invoke "ghost limb". There is a wound at the site, and dogs sometimes lick at and whine at the site of a wound (traumatic or surgical) where nothing is missing for weeks after the initial trauma, when the wound should have long since been healed (which it may not if the dog is licking too much). Sharon Crowell-Davis > Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 04:36:20 -0500 > From: richards@hula.net (D. Richards) > Subject: Re: Neuticles > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Bill Campbell wrote: > >The condition is marked by constant, intense lingual attention to the > >operated area, accompanied by high-pitched whining. > > >I named the condition *separation anxiety.* For reasons still unclear to me, > >the label was never widely adopted. > > > Bill, how do we know that it is not "ghost limb syndrome"? > > As I recall from a newspaper article, neuticles were developed by a vet > (male, of course) to make his dog feel more "complete." I can't imagine > that neuticles would make any difference to a dog. Certainly, the other > dogs know they're fake! But, it does bring to mind some interesting > questions: > > Would size extra-large neuticles in a small dog inspire fear in larger dogs? > > Could they have been developed in the past, out of brass, thus giving rise > to the contemporary expression? > > Would they offer protection to the scrotal area during a particularly > vicious dog fight? > > > My sentiments on the issue have been eloquently expressed by Jon Watts: > > >The real question is DO NEUTICLES BENEFIT A DOG IN ANY DETECTABLE WAY? Or > >are they more likely to benefit male (Pit Bull?) owners whose own feelings > >of masculinity are primarily dependent upon the size of their dogs' > >bollocks? > > Testily, > Dawn ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"reedd@cjnetworks.com" 5-JUN-1997 10:39:06.89 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: classes to take To anyone who can help, My name is Maren Davis I have been an observing subscriber to applied ethology for several months now and have not introduced myself. I am now taking this opportunity. I will be 17 years old in a few days and have been interested in animal behavior as long as I can remember. I am interested in every aspect of behavior I want to learn everything I can. I hope I don't offend anyone but I will admit that I am also very interested in what most would call anthropomorphic concerning animal emotion. I am not yet settled on my oppinion concerning the subject I am reading all I can and hope to study it myself among many other things. Please do not think I am only the "touchy-feely" type with no real scientific knowledge. The reason I write now is because I am looking into the University of Kansas in Lawrence, Kansas. They do not offer an Ethology major and I am given the option to create my own major with approval and I need some ideas on the classes that should be included in my curriculum. I am looking for a complete core of classes that will prepare me for grad work and the real world. I want my degree to mean something.If anyone could offer advice I would be most greatful!!:-) Thankyou in advance for any help MAREN DAVIS From: IN%"Kate.Littin.1@uni.massey.ac.nz" "Kate Littin" 5-JUN-1997 21:32:59.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: EEG in Cattle. Would it be possible to get replies to this on the list? I am also interested in EEGs, though in a different species. Thanks, Kate Littin. >Return-Path: >Delivery-Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:57:55 +1200 >Return-path: wattsjon@duke.usask.ca >Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 13:49:15 -0600 (CST) >From: Jon Watts >Subject: EEG in Cattle. >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Errors-to: applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca >Reply-to: Jon Watts > > >Does anyone out there have experience of any kind of EEG study on cattle >or other large animals? Specifically I would like to know what it would >take to be able to examine event-related potentials in response to an >auditory stimulus, without drilling holes in the animal's head. > >Is this feasible in practice or are the microvoltages just too small to >detect over muscle and EEG noise? I'd be happy to get any advice or >comments on circuits, electrode placement, interpretation etc. I'd even >like to be told to forget it because it's too difficult, if that is the >case. > >Thanks > >Jon ================================== = Kate Littin = = Dept. Physiology & Anatomy = = Massey University = = Private Bag 11-222 = = Palmerston North = = New Zealand (Aotearoa) = = ph +64 06 3504251 = = Kate.Littin.1@uni.massey.ac.nz = ================================== From: IN%"VANDENBOS@rullf2.LeidenUniv.nl" "Ruud van den Bos" 6-JUN-1997 03:14:52.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Members of List" CC: Subj: Wageningen 3rd-4th July: have you already registered? Dear all, If you haven't registered as yet, here's your chance. Please let us know if you want to attend the meeting. Best wishes Ruud van den Bos PhD University of Leiden Leiden, the Netherlands CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT: Perspectives on Animal Consciousness Wageningen International Conference Centre Wageningen, the Netherlands 3rd-4th July 1997 ORGANIZERS:dr. Ruud van den Bos (RUL) dr. Soemini Kasanmoentalib (VU) drs. ir. Susanne Lijmbach (LUW) drs. Marcel Dol (RUL) IN COOPERATION WITH: KNAW Onderzoekschool Ethiek (Netherlands School for Research in Practical Philosophy); SPONSORED BY:NWO Stichting voor Filosofie en Theologie; Anti-Vivisectie Stichting (AVS); Programme: 3rd July Morning Opening address: G. Den Hartogh (UvA; director of the Netherlands School for Research in Practical Philosophy) Animal Consciousness & Philosophy (chair: D. Kornet, University of Leiden, Leiden, the Netherlands) C. Allen (College Station, TX, USA); S. Lijmbach (Wageningen); W. van der Steen (Amsterdam); J. Vorstenbosch (Utrecht) Afternoon Animal Consciousness & Ethics (chair: Tj. de Cock Buning, University of Leiden, Leiden, the Netherlands) D. Macer (Tsukuba City, Japan); H. Verhoog (Leiden); E. Rivas (Nijmegen); P. Cohn (Abington, PA, USA) Evening Special Programme: P. Carruthers (Sheffield, UK); R. Heeger (Utrecht); M. Bracke (Wageningen) 4th July Morning Animal Consciousness & Science (chair: B. Spruijt, University of Utrecht, Utrecht, the Netherlands) M. Bekoff (Boulder, CO, USA); B. Bermond (Amsterdam); R. van den Bos (Leiden); J. Fentress (Halifax, NS, Canada) Afternoon Parallel Workshops: Workshop 1:Biological Foundation of Ethics (Tj. De Cock Buning, University of Leiden, Leiden, the Netherlands) Workshop 2:Research Methods in Animal Welfare (F. de Jonge, Wageningen Agricultural University, Wageningen, the Netherlands) Workshop 3:Animal Welfare, Politics & Legislation (J. Staman, Ministry of Agriculture, The Hague, the Netherlands) Special Closing Lecture:J. van Hooff (Utrecht) ________________________________________________________________ Conference fee: f200,-- (Dutch guilders) (includes: coffee & tea during breaks; lunches; evening drinks on 3rd July; abstracts) Payable through account. nr.:ABN: 53.95.09.426 to LUW, sector L&S, project Animal Ethics (nr.059918) Conference site: WICC-IAC Lawickse Allee 11 6701 AN Wageningen tel:0317 - 490133 fax:0317 - 426243 (Map will be sent after we have received your registration form) People who wish to stay in Wageningen overnight should contact: VVV (Tourist information) Wageningen: tel: 0317 - 410777 fax: 0317 - 423186 Name:_____________________________________________ Address:_____________________________________________ _____________________________________________ _____________________________________________ _____________________________________________ Tel: _____________________________________________ Fax:_____________________________________________ E-mail:_____________________________________________ For those who wish to attend a workshop please indicate your choice below (first, second): Workshop 1 (Tj. de Cock Buning): _______ Workshop 2 (F. de Jonge): _______ Workshop 3 (J. Staman):_______ This form should be sent to (by e-mail or 'snail' mail): Organisation Conference 'Perspectives on Animal Consciousness' Ruud van den Bos PhD Institute of Evolutionary and Ecological Sciences Section Theoretical Biology University of Leiden P.O. Box 9516 2300 RA Leiden the Netherlands tel:071 - 527 4921 fax:071 - 527 4900 e-mail: VANDENBOS@rullf2.medfac.leidenuniv.nl web-site: http://wwwbio.leidenuniv.nl/~vandenbos/congres.html From: IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu" "Ted Friend" 6-JUN-1997 08:55:25.35 To: IN%"Kate.Littin.1@uni.massey.ac.nz" "Kate Littin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: EEG in Cattle. Jon, I tried getting EEG's from cattle when I was a graduate student. I was not successful without drilling - their skull is very different from that of a human. Because of their sinus cavities you cannot record from the outer skull and assume that what you are getting comes from directly below. I had to drill through the outer skull or layer to get readings. Drilling and placing electrodes on the inner skull greatly complicates things, especially if you want to instrument them for a longer term study and avoid infection. That project of mine rapidly became too costly for the cattle. Ted Friend At 02:39 PM 6/6/97 +1200, you wrote: > >Would it be possible to get replies to this on the list? I am also interested in EEGs, though in a different species. Thanks, > >Kate Littin. > >>Return-Path: >>Delivery-Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:57:55 +1200 >>Return-path: wattsjon@duke.usask.ca >>Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 13:49:15 -0600 (CST) >>From: Jon Watts >>Subject: EEG in Cattle. >>To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >>Errors-to: applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca >>Reply-to: Jon Watts >> >> >>Does anyone out there have experience of any kind of EEG study on cattle >>or other large animals? Specifically I would like to know what it would >>take to be able to examine event-related potentials in response to an >>auditory stimulus, without drilling holes in the animal's head. >> >>Is this feasible in practice or are the microvoltages just too small to >>detect over muscle and EEG noise? I'd be happy to get any advice or >>comments on circuits, electrode placement, interpretation etc. I'd even >>like to be told to forget it because it's too difficult, if that is the >>case. >> >>Thanks >> >>Jon > ================================== > = Kate Littin = > = Dept. Physiology & Anatomy = > = Massey University = > = Private Bag 11-222 = > = Palmerston North = > = New Zealand (Aotearoa) = > = ph +64 06 3504251 = > = Kate.Littin.1@uni.massey.ac.nz = > ================================== From: IN%"jkincaid@oncomdis.on.ca" 6-JUN-1997 09:30:19.95 To: IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu" "Ted Friend" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: EEG in Cattle. Ted Friend wrote: > > Jon, > > I tried getting EEG's from cattle when I was a graduate student. I was not > successful without drilling - their skull is very different from that of a > human. Because of their sinus cavities you cannot record from the outer > skull and assume that what you are getting comes from directly below. I had > to drill through the outer skull or layer to get readings. Drilling and > placing electrodes on the inner skull greatly complicates things, especially > if you want to instrument them for a longer term study and avoid infection. > That project of mine rapidly became too costly for the cattle. > > Ted Friend > > At 02:39 PM 6/6/97 +1200, you wrote: > > > >Would it be possible to get replies to this on the list? I am also > interested in EEGs, though in a different species. Thanks, > > > >Kate Littin. > > > >>Return-Path: > >>Delivery-Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:57:55 +1200 > >>Return-path: wattsjon@duke.usask.ca > >>Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 13:49:15 -0600 (CST) > >>From: Jon Watts > >>Subject: EEG in Cattle. > >>To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > >>Errors-to: applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca > >>Reply-to: Jon Watts > >> > >> > >>Does anyone out there have experience of any kind of EEG study on cattle > >>or other large animals? Specifically I would like to know what it would > >>take to be able to examine event-related potentials in response to an > >>auditory stimulus, without drilling holes in the animal's head. > >> > >>Is this feasible in practice or are the microvoltages just too small to > >>detect over muscle and EEG noise? I'd be happy to get any advice or > >>comments on circuits, electrode placement, interpretation etc. I'd even > >>like to be told to forget it because it's too difficult, if that is the > >>case. > >> > >>Thanks > >> > >>Jon > > ================================== > > = Kate Littin = > > = Dept. Physiology & Anatomy = > > = Massey University = > > = Private Bag 11-222 = > > = Palmerston North = > > = New Zealand (Aotearoa) = > > = ph +64 06 3504251 = > > = Kate.Littin.1@uni.massey.ac.nz = > > ================================== > > Hello Ted Reading your note about EEGs in cattle promped me to write to ask if you know of EEGs done in dogs Thanks John From: IN%"reedd@cjnetworks.com" 6-JUN-1997 09:51:38.99 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: nameless fears, and emotions Everyone has experenced fear w\o an apparent object- the sence that an unknown misfourtune inpends. at other times, the fear is in responce to the sence that we are on unfamiliar ground. we feel that something bad could happen, though we don't know what. fear can eist w\o an object, a vertigo of the morale In Hawange National Park in Zimbabwe the elephants are culled annually. During culling, elephant family groups are herded by aircraft twords hunters who shoot all except the young calves, who are rounded up for sale. The elephant calves run around, scream and search for their mothers. One year a wildlife guide at a private sanctuary ninety miles away from the park notices the eighty elephants vanished from their usual haunts on the day culling started at Hawange. He found them several days later, bunched at the end of the sanctuary as far from the park as they could get. It has been discovered quite recently that elephants can communicate over long distances by means of subsonic calls-sounds pitched too low for people too hear. So it is not surprising that the sanctuary elephants apparently received some frightening message from the hawange elephants. But unless elephant communication is far more refined than anyone has yet speculated, the message cannot have been very specific. The sanctuaty elephants must have known that something very bad was happening to the Hawange elephants, but they can hardly have known what it was. the object of their fear was inchoate, but the fear was real. Taken from WHEN ELEPHANTS WEEP: the EMOTIONAL LIVES of ANIMALS by Jeffrey Moussaieff masson and Susan McCarthy Just out of curiosity any thoughts on the subject of the capasity of animal fears, survival instinct or just an emotion? And about animal emotion in general at the risk of being anthropomophic? From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 6-JUN-1997 13:22:09.54 To: IN%"reedd@cjnetworks.com" "Reed Davis" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: nameless fears, and emotions I'm only part-way through reading "When Elephants Weep", But it seems to be predicated upon some sort of conspiracy theory. Maybe I'm not reading it right but the authors appear to hold the view that science, or maybe the world in general, denies or undervalues the emotional experiences of animals. They cite many examples of apparently emotional behaviour of animals as though in support of a profound insight. I don't believe many scientists working with animals today would claim that they don't have emotional experiences. I suspect most would agree that they would be an important component in considering animal welfare, albeit hard to quantify. Maybe the book shapes up before the end. But so far it looks like an assault with a flamethrower upon a straw man. Jon P.S. I did hear an animal scientist recently who seemed to regard growth rate as the only relevant welfare parameter. Is this the exception that proves the rule? Or do I have a naive view of the state of enlightenment of scientists in this regard? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Reed Davis wrote: > Everyone has experenced fear w\o an apparent object- the sence that an > unknown misfourtune inpends. at other times, the fear is in responce to > the sence that we are on unfamiliar ground. we feel that something bad > could happen, though we don't know what. fear can eist w\o an object, a > vertigo of the morale > In Hawange National Park in Zimbabwe the elephants are culled annually. > During culling, elephant family groups are herded by aircraft twords > hunters who shoot all except the young calves, who are rounded up for > sale. The elephant calves run around, scream and search for their > mothers. One year a wildlife guide at a private sanctuary ninety miles > away from the park notices the eighty elephants vanished from their > usual haunts on the day culling started at Hawange. He found them > several days later, bunched at the end of the sanctuary as far from the > park as they could get. > It has been discovered quite recently that elephants can communicate > over long distances by means of subsonic calls-sounds pitched too low > for people too hear. So it is not surprising that the sanctuary > elephants apparently received some frightening message from the hawange > elephants. But unless elephant communication is far more refined than > anyone has yet speculated, the message cannot have been very specific. > The sanctuaty elephants must have known that something very bad was > happening to the Hawange elephants, but they can hardly have known what > it was. the object of their fear was inchoate, but the fear was real. > > Taken from WHEN ELEPHANTS WEEP: the EMOTIONAL LIVES of ANIMALS > by Jeffrey Moussaieff masson and Susan McCarthy > > Just out of curiosity any thoughts on the subject of the capasity of > animal fears, > survival instinct or just an emotion? And about animal emotion in > general at the > risk of being anthropomophic? > From: IN%"arowan@OPAL.TUFTS.EDU" 6-JUN-1997 15:56:36.45 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fears Reed Davis asked: "Just out of curiosity any thoughts on the subject of the capasity of animal fears, survival instinct or just an emotion? And about animal emotion in general at the risk of being anthropomophic?" If fear and emotion are present in humans, they are likely to be present in animals as well unless we posit that they sprung full-blown out of something else into existence at some stage in recent human evolution. It has been suggested (by Italian psychiatrist, G.B. Cassano) that anxiety is a uniquely human emotion and that fear is its animal counterpart. However, anxiety is mediated (at least in part) via the benzodiazepine receptors on GABA-neuronal channels in the septo-hippocampal region. These receptors are found not only in humans but also in all bony vertebrates (but not invertebrates) examined. Mammals and humans respond very similarly to anxiolytic and anxiogenic drugs that work via the BDZ receptor and Jeffrey Gray (Institute of Psychiatry, London) has suggested that the BDZ receptor modulates what he calls the Behavioral-Inhibition System. This system has evolutionary survival value in that the more cautious animal (mouse) does not get eaten by the predator (owl). However, if one is too cautious, then one will lose out in the race for resources. As a result, there is an evolutionary tension between caution and boldness. I have often wondered if the introverted/extroverted behavioral poles observed in animals (cats, wolves, primates) and humans (cf. Kagan) are mediated somehow via the BDZ system. I also tend to distinguish between fear and anxiety in that fear has a known object whereas anxiety does not. Animal fear and anxiety is a fascinating subject. Andrew Rowan Andrew N Rowan Director Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy School of Veterinary Medicine 200 Westboro Rd N. Grafton, MA 01536 Phone: (508) 839 7991; Fax: (508) 839 2953 Email: arowan@opal.tufts.edu From: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net" 6-JUN-1997 23:03:58.79 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" CC: IN%"APPLIED-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: nameless fears, and emotions Dear Jon and all, Elephants Weep present a lot of interesting stories and information and I did enjoy the book (from the view of someone who lives with 2 African Elephants - though there wer interpretation I did not echo just as I share som different views from the Bioaccoustics people and the behavorists in Africa - but that comes from my different perspective of being accepted into a "herd") anyway there may be a flamethower in there somewhere. I believe that science should look at the observations of those that are not scientists and then interpret from there. I will admit from experience, not as a scientist, but as an observationlist, that some scientists tend to attack those who get to anthropomorphic. A wise man said to me today "Your years of observation can save many months of misguided theorizing and speculating. Just a comment... Regards, Sheree Walters Please visit Ivory Haven - Laura the Elephant's House on the Web http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248 Keep in mind it is designed to help students of all ages learn about elephants in a fun, interesting interactive manner... Jon Watts wrote: > > I'm only part-way through reading "When Elephants Weep", But it seems to > be predicated upon some sort of conspiracy theory. Maybe I'm not reading > it right but the authors appear to hold the view that science, or maybe > the world in general, denies or undervalues the emotional experiences of > animals. They cite many examples of apparently emotional behaviour of > animals as though in support of a profound insight. I don't believe many > scientists working with animals today would claim that they don't have > emotional experiences. I suspect most would agree that they would be an > important component in considering animal welfare, albeit hard to > quantify. > > Maybe the book shapes up before the end. But so far it looks like an > assault with a flamethrower upon a straw man. > > Jon > > P.S. I did hear an animal scientist recently who seemed to regard > growth rate as the only relevant welfare parameter. Is this the exception > that proves the rule? Or do I have a naive view of the state of > enlightenment of scientists in this regard? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jon Watts (___) ) ) > University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( > Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) > and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( > Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) > 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& > Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ > S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ > Canada &^%%#$@ > wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Reed Davis wrote: > > > Everyone has experenced fear w\o an apparent object- the sence that an > > unknown misfourtune inpends. at other times, the fear is in responce to > > the sence that we are on unfamiliar ground. we feel that something bad > > could happen, though we don't know what. fear can eist w\o an object, a > > vertigo of the morale > > In Hawange National Park in Zimbabwe the elephants are culled annually. > > During culling, elephant family groups are herded by aircraft twords > > hunters who shoot all except the young calves, who are rounded up for > > sale. The elephant calves run around, scream and search for their > > mothers. One year a wildlife guide at a private sanctuary ninety miles > > away from the park notices the eighty elephants vanished from their > > usual haunts on the day culling started at Hawange. He found them > > several days later, bunched at the end of the sanctuary as far from the > > park as they could get. > > It has been discovered quite recently that elephants can communicate > > over long distances by means of subsonic calls-sounds pitched too low > > for people too hear. So it is not surprising that the sanctuary > > elephants apparently received some frightening message from the hawange > > elephants. But unless elephant communication is far more refined than > > anyone has yet speculated, the message cannot have been very specific. > > The sanctuaty elephants must have known that something very bad was > > happening to the Hawange elephants, but they can hardly have known what > > it was. the object of their fear was inchoate, but the fear was real. > > > > Taken from WHEN ELEPHANTS WEEP: the EMOTIONAL LIVES of ANIMALS > > by Jeffrey Moussaieff masson and Susan McCarthy > > > > Just out of curiosity any thoughts on the subject of the capasity of > > animal fears, > > survival instinct or just an emotion? And about animal emotion in > > general at the > > risk of being anthropomophic? > > From: IN%"marithe@mandic.com.br" "maria thereza amaral" 7-JUN-1997 11:46:03.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Feline aggression >Hello Listers (especially the behavior buffs out there!), > I have seen the previous answers to the list and shown my associate >the various comments with respect to behavior cases. My associate was >interested in me asking a specific question relating to a feline aggression >case. > >History: Aggression between 2 cats. Onwer has been trying to introduce a 3-4 >mth old kitten (F) to their 11 mth old MN cat. Cats were isolated for 2 >weeks then given only visual contact. Once introduced together the 11 mth >old cat attacked the other one, violent, seemed unprovoked. They tried >caging the cats several times during the day and brought cages closer and >closer together while feeding them. No signs of aggression. Allowed cats >out of cages, contact only at feeding times. Aggression returned, attacks >again quite violent. > Her questions are: 1)Would anti-anxiety meds be the next step? If >so which would be best to use - Elavil or Valium.....Others?? >2) Should the owner separate them again as soon as aggression is shown? > > Thanks very much, > > Janet Biggar, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. > >PS- #3) question is: I have seen posts about Feliway (pheromone). What is >the premise on how/why it works? I am going to try and contact the Sanofi >Company which I believe has a Canadian arm and see if it is something that >could possibly be sent into Canada without alot of red tape. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- maria thereza cera galvao do amaral veterinarian ( medica veterinaria ) homeopatician ( homeopata ) marithe@mandic.com.br Sao Paulo - Brasil From: IN%"reedd@cjnetworks.com" 7-JUN-1997 12:18:26.16 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: nameless fears, and emotions Jon and all- I see your view on the book before mentioned but I want you to understand the way I look at it. I know the kind of people the book seems to defend against. My father, whoes e-mail I'm writing from, is one of those people he critizes me every step I take in behavior studies and so I did like When Elephants Weep for the simple reason it gives me a little more insite on what I can say to those kind of people when forced in to one of those confrentations(that I avoid) I feel that it is very legit to adress those kinds of oppinions. But, Jon, I do think you have a good point, it's not always good form to address only the extremes. MAREN From: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" 9-JUN-1997 00:37:42.65 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"arowan@OPAL.TUFTS.EDU" "Andrew Rowan" CC: Subj: RE: Fears Andrew Rowan wrote: > > Reed Davis asked: > "Just out of curiosity any thoughts on the subject of the capasity of > animal fears, survival instinct or just an emotion? And about > animal emotion in > general at the risk of being anthropomophic?" > > If fear and emotion are present in humans, they are likely to be present in > animals as well Fear is an emotion. > It > has been suggested (by Italian psychiatrist, G.B. Cassano) that anxiety is > a uniquely human emotion and that fear is its animal counterpart. This must be somebody who has never work with animals. > However, > anxiety is mediated (at least in part) via the benzodiazepine receptors on > GABA-neuronal channels in the septo-hippocampal > region. You are right to say "at least in part" because all neuromediators are involved: GABA, 5HT, Noradrenaline, dopamine, etc. > I also tend to distinguish between fear and anxiety in that fear has a > known object whereas anxiety does not. In France, we do the same difference and we go further. We base our definitions on the ethological dictionary of Armin Heymer who differentiates between fright and fear and we have added the concept of anxiety: FRENCH / ENGLISH / HUMAN PSYCHIATRY CRAINTE / FRIGHT / ? - PEUR / FEAR-ANGST / NORMAL ANXIETY - ANXIETE / ANXIETY / ANXIETY The fright is in an open system: escape, threat, aggression with mild activation of the NA neurotrasmission The fear is in closed system - without any possibility to escape: inhibiton, fear aggression, fear defecation and micturition, with important activation of the NA, 5HT, Dopamime neurotransmissions, ACTH production, ... Phobia is a pathological fright or fear in presence of a discernible stimulus Anxiety is a total deregulation of the emotions, with fright or fear-like reactions in presence of the slight change in the external or internal stimulus. (See Dr Pageat's Book for definitions of paroxysmal, intermittent and permanent anxieties, with all the neurotransmissions involved: "Pathologie du comportement du chien", Point Vétérinaire, Alfort, France)) > Animal fear and anxiety is a fascinating subject. Your are right. It is. Dr Joel Dehasse (dvm) - Brussels - jdehasse@arcadis.be http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/ From: IN%"bmduys@bio.vu.nl" 9-JUN-1997 06:10:28.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Apprenticeship My name is Bianca Duys. I am a biology student of the Free University Amsterdam in the Netherlands; I study in particular Ecology and I take a great interest in Ethology (I followed several ethology courses already). The reason why I started to study Biology is my interest for animal behaviour and therefore I am looking for an apprenticeship, which includes Ethology. I hope that you can help me with suggestions, information or internetsites, because information about an apprenticeship abroad is difficult to find. Names of persons and adresses I can write to, concerning this topic will be appreciated. I thank you in advance, Bianca Duijs Ceintuurbaan 228-IV 1072 GE Amsterdam From: IN%"pbume@wild.unizh.ch" "Pia Baumann" 9-JUN-1997 10:17:02.10 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: wanted:e-mail address Hi All, does anybody know the e-mail address of J.P. Watt? In 1991 he wrote his PhD thesis about 'Prey selection by coastal otters' at the University of Aberdeen. I am writing my Master's thesis about the otters in the Zoo of Zurich and would like to get a copy of Watt's thesis. So if anyone knows him or his address I'd be very glad to hear from you. Thanks a lot in advance! Pia Baumann From: IN%"jiracka@ids.pl" 9-JUN-1997 14:56:51.03 To: IN%"Petra.Mertens@lrz.uni-muenchen.de" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: A clinical case of problem dog behaviour - please help Dear Petra, Dear Ethologists, Here I am, asking about a case. I am sorry this is such a long message, but I thought I had to give you all the possible information if you were to give opinions. These clients (a couple in their thirties, no children) came to me 12 days ago. They have 2 dogs, both females, mixed breed, strays, 10-12 kg body weight, not spayed. Presentation problem: Interdog aggression. History: The problem dog, "Nitka", is about 1,5 yrs and she was the first to come to the household. She has always shown many sings of anxiety and fear, including fear of thunder, fear of people and dogs, and she also urinates and destroys the environment when left alone (I dare not calling it a "separation anxiety", having witnessed the discussion in Birmingham, although I believe it is a form of anxiety). She follows the wife around the house. However, the owners accepted her behaviour until the new dog, "Mayka", joined the household. Problems started with Nitka's first heat cycle. She became aggressive towards Mayka, although *almost exclusively in the presence of the wife*. Few actual fights occurred, but every such event makes Nitka even more anxious and tense for several weeks. Every time Mayka whines (also when in a fight) this triggers or intensifies Nitka's aggression. Now Nitka entered her second heat cycle and aggression became a problem again. The dogs can be safely left alone together, even during Nitka's heat. The only change "for good" was that since Mayka arrived, Nitka seems to fear less other dogs and she even plays with them in the park (even when walked without Mayka). Nitka doesn't let either of the owner examine a wound or do anything about her body (shows fear aggression /all teeth exposed, mouth wide open, pupils dilated/ and bites when such attempts are made). However, the husband is much better in such situations and Nitka generally behaves better in his presence. Mayka is approx. 4 yrs old and has never caused any problem. She tries to avoid any aggressive confrontation through deference and fights back only when severely bitten. Consultation (12 days ago): Nitka was very tense and anxious, with pupils dilated and the tail tucked tightly under her abdomen. Many times during the consultation she tried to get into the wifes lap and was putting her forepaws around the wife's wrist. She approached to sniff me from a distance only at the end of an hour (although I didn't try to interact with her and was only glancing at her once in a while). Mayka was very relaxed and outgoing from the very beginning, came to greet me happily right away. She was calm during the consultation. The owners seemed to be very commited, and ready to work hard. They have tried to find help for six months now and were determined to succeed. My conclusions: I believed that the following the wife around the house is more an attempt to control her, than is a sign of attachment. The aggression towards Mayka in my opinion is due to Nitka's uncertainty about her role in the hierarchy. I am not quite sure why her aggression is triggered especially by Mayka's whining. It seems to me that Nitka has a more clear view of her subordinate position towards the husband than towards the wife and she tries to challenge her (although not as overtly), as she challenges the other dog. Generally, the constant tension, fears, and obsession with control of the environment that Nitka shows, make any work with her impossible. She is unable to relax and learn. Treatment: To lessen Nitka's anxiety and make learning possible I prescribed Amitriptyline 1 mg/kg q12h (I stressed that this was only to make the behavioral therapy possible). After Karen Overall, Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals, Mosby 1997, I gave the clients: the "Protocol for deference" (the idea is to teach the dog to defer to owners every time it wants something, by requiring it to sit quietly, wait and look at the people with attention) the "Protocol for relaxation" (teaching the dog to relax in various circumstances while sitting, or laying, quietly; and teaching the dog to take all the cues as to the appropriateness of its behaviour from its people). The dog has to sit while the owner walks around it, sings, claps his/her hands, jumps, gradually lives the room, etc., and after each little task it is rewarded with a food treat. I asked the owner to reinforce Mayka over Nitka, since Mayka was the one behaving normally and obviously more able to handle the dominant position and its responsibilities. Since it was impossible to lock Nitka in a separate room (it induces such fear and anxiety, that only worsens any problem), I suggested that the dogs were muzzled in the presence of the wife, until we can solve some problems. Until now it was Mayka who was locked, which was contradictory with reinforcement of her status. I suggested that Nitka should be spayed after she fished her heat. Follow-up 7 days later (a phone call from the husband) There were no apparent signs of the medication working. The clients couldn't do any exercises with Nitka since she would hide under the table every time they wanted to interact with her; she would eventually come out to get the food treat, but would remain to be very tense (and I emphasized that only a relaxed state could be rewarded, never her fearful and anxious state). The husband was always walking Mayka on a longer leash and letting Mayka go through the door first and that made Nitka sit quietly and wait for her turn. But this was the only success. I suggested new techniques to make Nitka relax so it would be possible to reward her for something. After no effect of Amitriptyline on day 9, I changed the dose to 2 mg/kg q 12 h. Follow-up 12 days after the initial visit (a phone call): Nitka is completely unable to relax and learn due to her tension and constant attempt to control. For a few days Nitka didn't attack Mayka, possibly because of the effect of the muzzle, but now she would attack even when muzzled. Mayka hurt her toe and has a dressing on it. Whenever it is changed she whines and this triggers Nitka's aggression and attack. There was another fight (Nitka had a muzzle, Mayka did not; Mayka bit Nitka in the ear), after which Nitka is even more anxious than before. Also, she is constantly after Mayka. The dogs are now separated all the time, but it is mostly Mayka who is locked alone. When at home, owners try to stay with the dogs, changing places. When the wife is with Mayka, Nitka remains at the door and after some time starts scratching. Even the wife lost any contact with Nitka. The only chance for interaction with her is when she comes to the pople (she would than sit quietly and wait, and would get a treat). Any time any of the client tries to interact, the dog is backing or hiding away, or, at best, pretending they didn't. The wife is getting nervous herself, and afraid that either the dogs will fight again or that Nitka may bite her. If I can't help fears of the wife, there is little chance for any improvement... I considered changing the medication to Buspirone, since Amitriptyline seems to have no effect whatsoever. I suggested the owners look for a new home for Mayka, but they are not ready for that. It seems they can find only a temporary home to place her. I thought it could be a solution, providing it would help to quiet Nitka and enable her to learn, and also make the situation for the wife more comfortable, but even after some success with behavioral modification, reintroducing Mayka will be a problem, won't it? Was my assessment of the situation correct? I have a feeling I may have overlooked some aspects of it. Is Buspirone a good option to try? What other medication could be helpful? What would be your next med. to try? Or what behavioral modification? Thank you very much in advance, Joanna Iracka Veterinary Surgeon Warsaw, Poland From: IN%"npa@mail.telepac.pt" "npa@mail.telepac.pt" 9-JUN-1997 16:03:54.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Ethology'" CC: Subj: RE: Feline aggression Hi to all, I woul like to kno you opinion on this subject, especially in the use of = fluoxetine in the aggressor and buspirone in the victim. Hi Jim, I am sorry for my delay answering you but I had alot of work. As you know this kind of aggression is called as territorial aggression. = Territorial aggression involves the aggressor hissing, growling, = swatting and chasing another cat with the intent of excluding that cat = from a particular area. A territorial cat may seek out its victim or = wait outside a door or near the victims hiding place until the victim = appears or moves and then pursue it. Territorial aggression may occur when new cat is introduced to the = household. In my opinion you should recommend to do the following: - Separate again the cats and the new cat should be kept separately = from the resident cat for a few days. - The cats should alternate among the rooms, allowing them to become = more familiar with one another by odor. You can alternate the beds too. = This procedure allows the new cat to acquaint itself with the = environment. One week doing this procedure. - Separate the cats only by a door. Allow them to smell each other = under the door. ( 1 or 2 weeks) - Begin to introduce the cats when they are "really" hungry and give = food in that moment. Both cats should be in cages, back to each other. ( = One week) - The cages can be brought closer together gradually over several days = or weeks but only at meal time. - Release one cat and allow to smell the other. Them close him and = release the other one. Eventually, after eating, the cats can spend some = time with each other, if they are kept apart on leashes at safe = distance.=20 - Play with both cats when they are free. Its very important to pet = them to keep them relaxed and in good mood while the cats are in the = same vicinity. Most victims start being aggressive too. They exibit fear aggression and = that dont help the peace. So some times I recomend : Victim - Buspirone, 5mg bid Aggressor - Fluoxetine, 1 mg sid ( some times I dont use, because = isnt necessary) Nuno Paix=E3o, DVM, LMV Animal Behavior Consultor Caparica Animal Hospital Clinical Director Portugal From: IN%"shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at" 9-JUN-1997 16:18:36.78 To: IN%"MAMMAL-L@SIVM.SI.EDU" "Mammalian Biology" CC: Subj: SHREW TALK: Newsletter Announcement Vol. 1, No. 00 - 9 June 1997 (Crosspostings can happen nowadays... sorry) ____________________________________________________________________ __ __ __ /_ /_ / /_/ /_ / / / __/ / / / \ /_ /_/_/ ___ __ Digest 9 June 1997 - Vol. 1, No. 00 \ \_\ \ \_/ \ \ \ \__ \ \ ____________________________________________________________________ The Shrew (ist's) Site: http://members.vienna.at/shrew Email: shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at ____________________________________________________________________ Dear Shrew Colleagues and Friends: Thank you: The Shrew Site has had 3020 visitors since autumn 1996. A number of you have expressed interest in a shrew e-mail list to deal with research problems, announcements, and generally to facilitate contact among people working in some way with shrews or small mammal ecology; Such a list has also been encouraged by many non-scientists that I call 'shrew-mateurs' and that have shown to have a variety of questions and observations that could be relevant to the scientific discussion. I will be starting such a list... The SHREW TALK E-mail list . . . - Will replace the 'Shrew Inquiry' bulletin board on my web-site. It should be easier. - The list will appear in digest form, i.e., all mail addressed to the list will be sent out to the group. It will temporarily be posted irregularly, depending on the "input" and appreciation. - It will be open to professionals and "the seriously interested." - The discussion will include topics ranging from shrew ecology, behaviour, physiology, anatomy, taxonomy, parasites, predators, genetics and palaeontolgy to frequently asked "non-scientific" questions and general problems of small mammal ecology, e.g. trapping and marking methods. - The digest will be sent to all "Shrewists on E-mail" and anybody who is interested. Please note that the list "Shrewists on E-Mail" is independent of the list of recipients of "SHREW TALK". Please send a seperate e-mail to be added to the list "Shrewists on E-mail", stating your full name and address as well as a short description of your special field of interest. - The message header will read something like: Subject: Shrew Talk: Vol. 1, No. 25 - 20 July 1997 - It will not be moderated unless there is an extreme situation that warrants it, such as an inappropriate person getting onto the list. If this happens, the person will be warned, and if problems persist, will be removed from the list. (So far, I have found those interested in shrews to be wonderful, honest, and thoughtful people, and expect the caliber of list members will reflect that.) - Introductions, information and questions are all encouraged. - The newsletter will be archived on the web: http://members.vienna.at/shrew/shrewtalk.html - TO JOIN THE LIST write by return e-mail and say you want to join. - TO *NOT* JOIN THE LIST do nothing. - TO BE REMOVED FROM THE LIST after joining, write and ask to be removed. This will not affect your entry on the list "Shrewists on E-mail". - TO POST TO THE LIST, write to using the words "Shrew Talk" in the subject line. For instance, Subject: Shrew Talk: Introduction Your whole message, including header and signature, will be added to the digest. __________________________________________________________________ Please spread the word to any colleagues you think would be interested in this subject and format. Thank you very much for your time. Sincerely, Werner Haberl ================================================================== Dr. Werner Haberl Editor, SHREW TALK (http://members.vienna.at/shrew/shrewtalk.html) Hamburgerstr. 11, A-1050 Vienna, Austria Email: shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at URL: http://members.vienna.at/shrew (The Shrew (ist's) Site) The Shrew Bibliography (> 6000 references) (available on CD ROM) ================================================================== P.S.: Special thanks to Sheryl Todd from Tapir Talk and The Tapir Preservation Fund for her encouragement and help. Anybody interested in Tapirs should check out The Tapir Gallery (http://www.tapirback.com/tapirgal/) or write to tapir@tapirback.com From: IN%"SED1502@ed.sac.ac.uk" 10-JUN-1997 03:14:32.28 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: "The Emotional Life of Animal Welfare Science" In reply to Jon Watts inquiry as to the state of subjective considerations in animal welfare science, my impression is that while those involved in such endeavours (probably including everybody reading this message) accept that animals have an emotional life, the vast majority of mainstream animal "scientists" would seldom consider such questions. I was working as a Government Vet in the hard world of Agriculture when I read "When Elephants Weep" in 1995 and to me it was a breath of fresh air. It contrasted sharply with my working concerns such as the traceability of animals (i.e. to make sure that animals were numbered and stayed that way). This year I am undertaking the Applied Animal Behaviour and Welfare MSc course here in Edinburgh and can appreciate that subjective science is getting a "fair" hearing (thanks to Francoise Wemelsfelder). However I was reminded of the harsh reality of the (until now) prevailing agricultural mindset, when I asked a veterinary pathologist how best I could assess chronic pain in lambs, and he suggested weight gain! It may seem to those in the business that mainstream science is confronting welfare issues and does indeed consider animals as more than units of production but my experience is unfortunately the opposite. Of all the research being carried out, it seems that only a small percentage of scientific literature on animal welfare reaches the popular press, whereas books like Masson's do (He's got a new one called "Dogs never lie about Love", which I saw reviewed in last Sunday's Independent) and I think this type of book helps raise awareness...his previous book certainly raised mine. I'm not in a rush to buy his latest book, as I now feel that "hard" science is in fact more interesting, however, it would be great if those writing scientific papers could more often bridge the gap between the people they address when writing their papers, and the rest of the general public (especially those involved in animal production). Otherwise I feel the "Touchy-Feely" types will have their day. PS Does anyone know where to get hold of Patrick Bateson's report on Stag hunting? It is one of the exceptions to the above, in that it has been quoted in all the papers but as yet I haven't seen it in any journal. Terry Cassidy MSc student Institute of Ecology & Resource Management School of Agriculture University of Edindurgh West Mains Road Edinburgh EH9 3JG From: IN%"PAJORE@EM.AGR.CA" "Ed Pajor" 10-JUN-1997 06:11:39.39 To: IN%"SED1502@ed.sac.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: "when elephants weep" To all interested in "When elephants weep" I suggest you also read David Fraser's critical but fair review of the book published in in Animal Behaviour 51:1190-1193. Ed Pajor Bldg. 94 C.F.A.R. Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA K1A 0C6 phone 613-759-1586 fax 613-759-1596 E-mail PAJORE@EM.AGR.CA From: IN%"rhb11@hermes.cam.ac.uk" 10-JUN-1997 09:04:51.73 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: pig journal? Dear All, I have been 'unsubscribed' from the Applied Ethology network for some time and therefore apologise in advance if I inadvertently wander into territory previously discussed. I know that ISAE is thinking about setting up a journal (which I am not remotely against). However, this fact set me thinking about the journals currently in circulation. I'll avoid attempting to list the vast array of available journals but focus, instead, on the following observation: There are many 'serious-academic' 'specific-animal-focused' journals; for example: - For poultry there are British Poultry Science, Poultry Science, World Poultry Science (and perhaps others). - For sheep/goats there is Small Ruminant Research (and perhaps others). - for cows there are Journal of Dairy Science, Journal of Dairy Research (and perhaps others) However, when it came to pigs (which is a pretty big field in it's broadest sense e.g. welfare, production [transport, farrowing, breeding etc.], conservation [rare breeds etc.], model for physiology, cognition etc. etc. etc.) there appears to be no major journal of equivalent academic standing. What do we all think of a new journal called PORCINE SCIENCE? I am NOT seeking to set one up myself (!). This message merely seeks to stimulate pig-folks and others to air their views and establish if there is (or has been in the past) moves a foot to set up a high qaulity pig journal. In addition, it would be interesting to know whether folks feel there is a 'niche' for such a publication. Finally, I am also NOT suggesting this replace or in any way effect the introduction of a new ISAE journal (that's a different topic). So on that double disclaimer I'll say 'thank you for listening' and look forward (hopefully) to some thoughts about this on the network; Harry Bradshaw Dr R. H. Bradshaw, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge, Madingley Road, Cambridge CB3 OES, UK. From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" 10-JUN-1997 09:16:45.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A clinical case of problem dog behaviour - please help jiracka@ids.pl wrote: > > Dear Petra, > Dear Ethologists, > > Here I am, asking about a case. I am sorry this is such a long message, > but I thought I had to give you all the possible information if you were > to give opinions. > > These clients (a couple in their thirties, no children) came to me 12 > days ago. They have 2 dogs, both females, mixed breed, strays, 10-12 kg > body weight, not spayed. > > Presentation problem: Interdog aggression. > > History: > > The problem dog, "Nitka", is about 1,5 yrs and she was the first to come > to the household. She has always shown many sings of anxiety and fear, > including fear of thunder, fear of people and dogs, and she also > urinates and destroys the environment when left alone (I dare not > calling it a "separation anxiety", having witnessed the discussion in > Birmingham, although I believe it is a form of anxiety). She follows > the wife around the house. However, the owners accepted her behaviour > until the new dog, "Mayka", joined the household. Problems started with > Nitka's first heat cycle. She became aggressive towards Mayka, although > *almost exclusively in the presence of the wife*. Few actual fights > occurred, but every such event makes Nitka even more anxious and tense > for several weeks. Every time Mayka whines (also when in a fight) this > triggers or intensifies Nitka's aggression. Now Nitka entered her > second heat cycle and aggression became a problem again. The dogs can be > safely left alone together, even during Nitka's heat. > > The only change "for good" was that since Mayka arrived, Nitka seems to > fear less other dogs and she even plays with them in the park (even when > walked without Mayka). > > Nitka doesn't let either of the owner examine a wound or do anything > about her body (shows fear aggression /all teeth exposed, mouth wide > open, pupils dilated/ and bites when such attempts are made). However, > the husband is much better in such situations and Nitka generally > behaves better in his presence. > > Mayka is approx. 4 yrs old and has never caused any problem. She tries > to avoid any aggressive confrontation through deference and fights back > only when severely bitten. > > Consultation (12 days ago): > > Nitka was very tense and anxious, with pupils dilated and the tail > tucked tightly under her abdomen. Many times during the consultation she > tried to get into the wifes lap and was putting her forepaws around the > wife's wrist. She approached to sniff me from a distance only at the end > of an hour (although I didn't try to interact with her and was only > glancing at her once in a while). > > Mayka was very relaxed and outgoing from the very beginning, came to > greet me happily right away. She was calm during the consultation. > > The owners seemed to be very commited, and ready to work hard. They have > tried to find help for six months now and were determined to succeed. > > My conclusions: > > I believed that the following the wife around the house is more an > attempt to control her, than is a sign of attachment. > > The aggression towards Mayka in my opinion is due to Nitka's uncertainty > about her role in the hierarchy. I am not quite sure why her aggression > is triggered especially by Mayka's whining. > > It seems to me that Nitka has a more clear view of her subordinate > position towards the husband than towards the wife and she tries to > challenge her (although not as overtly), as she challenges the other > dog. > > Generally, the constant tension, fears, and obsession with control of > the environment that Nitka shows, make any work with her impossible. > She is unable to relax and learn. > > Treatment: > > To lessen Nitka's anxiety and make learning possible I prescribed > Amitriptyline 1 mg/kg q12h (I stressed that this was only to make the > behavioral therapy possible). > > After Karen Overall, Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals, > Mosby 1997, I gave the clients: > > the "Protocol for deference" (the idea is to teach the dog to defer to > owners every time it wants something, by requiring it to sit quietly, > wait and look at the people with attention) > > the "Protocol for relaxation" (teaching the dog to relax in various > circumstances while sitting, or laying, quietly; and teaching the dog to > take all the cues as to the appropriateness of its behaviour from its > people). The dog has to sit while the owner walks around it, sings, > claps his/her hands, jumps, gradually lives the room, etc., and after > each little task it is rewarded with a food treat. > > I asked the owner to reinforce Mayka over Nitka, since Mayka was the one > behaving normally and obviously more able to handle the dominant > position and its responsibilities. Since it was impossible to lock > Nitka in a separate room (it induces such fear and anxiety, that only > worsens any problem), I suggested that the dogs were muzzled in the > presence of the wife, until we can solve some problems. Until now it was > Mayka who was locked, which was contradictory with reinforcement of her > status. > > I suggested that Nitka should be spayed after she fished her heat. > > Follow-up 7 days later (a phone call from the husband) > > There were no apparent signs of the medication working. The clients > couldn't do any exercises with Nitka since she would hide under the > table every time they wanted to interact with her; she would eventually > come out to get the food treat, but would remain to be very tense (and I > emphasized that only a relaxed state could be rewarded, never her > fearful and anxious state). > > The husband was always walking Mayka on a longer leash and letting Mayka > go through the door first and that made Nitka sit quietly and wait for > her turn. But this was the only success. > > I suggested new techniques to make Nitka relax so it would be possible > to reward her for something. > > After no effect of Amitriptyline on day 9, I changed the dose to 2 mg/kg > q 12 h. > > Follow-up 12 days after the initial visit (a phone call): > > Nitka is completely unable to relax and learn due to her tension and > constant attempt to control. For a few days Nitka didn't attack Mayka, > possibly because of the effect of the muzzle, but now she would attack > even when muzzled. Mayka hurt her toe and has a dressing on it. > Whenever it is changed she whines and this triggers Nitka's aggression > and attack. > > There was another fight (Nitka had a muzzle, Mayka did not; Mayka bit > Nitka in the ear), after which Nitka is even more anxious than before. > Also, she is constantly after Mayka. > > The dogs are now separated all the time, but it is mostly Mayka who is > locked alone. When at home, owners try to stay with the dogs, changing > places. When the wife is with Mayka, Nitka remains at the door and > after some time starts scratching. > > Even the wife lost any contact with Nitka. The only chance for > interaction with her is when she comes to the pople (she would than sit > quietly and wait, and would get a treat). Any time any of the client > tries to interact, the dog is backing or hiding away, or, at best, > pretending they didn't. > > The wife is getting nervous herself, and afraid that either the dogs > will fight again or that Nitka may bite her. If I can't help fears of > the wife, there is little chance for any improvement... > > I considered changing the medication to Buspirone, since Amitriptyline > seems to have no effect whatsoever. > > I suggested the owners look for a new home for Mayka, but they are not > ready for that. It seems they can find only a temporary home to place > her. I thought it could be a solution, providing it would help to quiet > Nitka and enable her to learn, and also make the situation for the wife > more comfortable, but even after some success with behavioral > modification, reintroducing Mayka will be a problem, won't it? > > Was my assessment of the situation correct? I have a feeling I may have > overlooked some aspects of it. > > Is Buspirone a good option to try? What other medication could be > helpful? What would be your next med. to try? > > Or what behavioral modification? > > Thank you very much in advance, > > Joanna Iracka > Veterinary Surgeon > Warsaw, Poland > > Net-Tamer V 1.09 - Test Drive Dear Joanna The case you described seems typical for aggression between dogs in the same household in that aggression only occurs in physical proximity of the owner, and in that it is combined with aggression to the owner. What appears to happen is that in absence of the owner, there is a clear dominance relationship between the dogs, and there is no aggression. In presence of the owner, one of the dogs (it is usually, but not always, the one which is subordinate when the dogs are alone) forms an alliance with the owner and attacks the other dog. Maybe the presence of the owner elevates this dog 's social status so it can now challenge the dominant dog. Another explanation is that the subordinate dog is overly attached to the owner and defends this close bond against interference by the other dog. This explanation seems to fit with the description you give of the subordinate dog, following the wife constantly. It is interesting that most of these cases are combined with what we usually diagnose as dominance aggression towards the owner. If the owners were really dominant over the dogs, and the dogs were comfortable with their position in the rank order, the interdog aggression would likely not occur. You were therefore completely correct in addressinf the aggression to the owners first. Our protocol usually is: Ignore both dogs for at least 3 weeks completely. In extreme cases, or where people are not capable of ignoring the dogs, we crate the lower ranking dog (which is typically the one that is aggressive to people as well) for 3 weeks, except for feeding and walking 2x/day. Attention which has to be give (feeding, walking) should be given by the person who is least likely to trigger aggression (in this case, the husband). After 3 weeks, interactions between dog and owner may become more frequent again, but should be structured (i.e. command-response-reward. This is in fact what the nothing in life is free strategy accomlishes). As you have done, the higher ranking dog should always be treated as such. In addition, while the lower ranking dog is in a crate, the owner could do some obedience training in front of the cage, initially at a great distance and then progressively closer by, to desensitize the lower ranking dog to the owner interacting with the other dog. I had good success using Prozac in a case like this, at 1 mg/kg sid. To summarize: Treat owner related aggression first as you would treat dominance, the key being to ignore the dogs completely. Leave the dogs together as much as possible. Treat the higher ranking dog as such. Possibly desensitize the lower ranking dog to the owner interacting with the higher ranking dog. Good luck Andrew Luescher From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 10-JUN-1997 09:56:46.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cattle EEGs, thanks. Many thanks to the people who responded to my question about EEG recording of cattle. It seems to be less straightforward than I had hoped it might be (then again I knew virtually nothing about the subject!). Certainly cattle present greater difficulty than sheep, or some other animals. Maybe I'll get an opportunity to try it sometime. But meanwhile I'll put the idea on the back burner and try to think of some other ways to get cows to tell me what I want to know! Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 10-JUN-1997 10:15:31.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Book reviews Of course the ideal reviewer for a book would be someone who has actually read ALL of it! Especially someone who IS SOMEONE. So thanks to Ed Pajor for pointing out David Fraser's review (of "When Elephants Weep"). I think I'll check it out myself. Then again maybe I should finish reading the book BEFORE I read the review. Mmm... decisions, decisions... By the way, I'd be very happy do do some proper book reviewing if any editor out there would be so eccentric as to value my opinion. Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net" 10-JUN-1997 21:49:11.22 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Book reviews Regarding Jon Watts Comments: Dear John, I have read the entire book and if you were familiar with the book it might be more apparent to you that the book is made up of many different stories about many different types of animals. It draws from many opinions and directions as well. Iin this case I think it would be fair to address questions aobuot parts of the book without having finished it first since it contains so many parts and hypothesis. I thas been several months since I have read it so I leave room for erring on the side of caution. I also would like to remind you that we were all young once and enthusiastic; someo of us even overly so... So anxcious for answers or feed back that we jumped ahead. It also seems to me that this is how some discoveries are made. Many scientists and statistcians seem to need to be reminded of this. A smart man commented to me by email in response to comments similar to these that at one time "man looked, saw and said I wonder". This is how many things were discoverd and this also resulted in many scientific studies being developed.... As for your comment about "someone who IS SOMEONE" I hope I misunderstood that one.....it goes back to all of us being young once. You were not all born scientists, ethologists, etc....even if you would like to think so... There is a very talented young lady on the bioaccoustics mailing list of late who has been doing some school project regarding dinosaur and elephant sounds. She may only be a student but she has studied the subject and knows the terminology, all the scientific data etc... Not everyone can be a PHD already..... Lets not squash them or their developing ideas before they start.... I will grant you that we all should do our homework first... Regards, Sheree Walters Jon Watts wrote: > > Of course the ideal reviewer for a book would be someone who has actually > read ALL of it! Especially someone who IS SOMEONE. So thanks to Ed Pajor > for pointing out David Fraser's review (of "When Elephants Weep"). I think > I'll check it out myself. Then again maybe I should finish reading the > book BEFORE I read the review. Mmm... decisions, decisions... > > By the way, I'd be very happy do do some proper book reviewing if any > editor out there would be so eccentric as to value my opinion. > > Jon > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jon Watts (___) ) ) > University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( > Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) > and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( > Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) > 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& > Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ > S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ > Canada &^%%#$@ > wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"pbume@wild.unizh.ch" "Pia Baumann" 11-JUN-1997 04:17:36.79 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: address & wild cats Hi All! 1. Does anybody know an e-mail address or fax number of the department of zoology at the University of Aberdeen and at the University of Innsbruck? 2. Does anybody know about recent or past research about the space requirements of wild cats in captivity? I'd like to know, if experiments have been done, where captive big or small cats got the occasion to choose between enclosures of different size and structure. I guess, there's seldom enough space available to run such experiments, but I'd just like to check it out. Thanks a lot for your attention, Best wishes, Pia Baumann From: IN%"J.Burke-1@plymouth.ac.uk" 11-JUN-1997 06:40:01.15 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: VFI in lactation I am interested in finding information on voluntary feed intake of sows during lactation, particularly those housed in group farrowing/lactation accommodation. I would be grateful for any assistance in finding references to studies in this area. Thank you Jean Burke Jean Burke, PhD Student Seale-Hayne Faculty University of Plymouth Newton Abbot Devon TQ12 6NQ England Tel 01626 325637 Fax 01626 325605 From: IN%"andreamagg@col.it" "Andrea Maggi" 11-JUN-1997 10:20:59.87 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: "New" (and filmable) humans/dogs relationships Hi everybody, I am a producer for a Discovery Channel series of three hours about the Family Canidae. The series encompasses the evolution, the sociality and the domestication within the family of dogs. For the third episode of the series, which is mainly dealing with domestication, we need ideas on novel and filmable situation involving special relationship bonding domestic dogs and people. Can anybody be of help? Please note that for this series we will be filming at the four corners of the world. By the way, the series have been written by David Macdonald who some of you might know. Best wishes, Andrea Maggi From: IN%"Marjac1@aol.com" 11-JUN-1997 13:10:24.58 To: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Book reviews From all of us who were offended by the said comments, much thanks to Sheree Walters. It doesn't send a very good picture to the future experts in this field that the present "experts" are often so petty and infantile. Sheree's comments give hope to those of us who have genuine interest and love of this field, no matter if we have acquired a PH'd now (if that is the prerequisite to making one SOMEBODY) or are working on it presently. Thank you to Sheree Walters, and anyone else that believes in being a positive role model, and who has helped out the younger members of this list. Sincerely, Jacquelyn Martin From: IN%"04025490505-0001@t-online.de" 11-JUN-1997 15:57:47.01 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dear All, after some months of just quiet participation I will do the step out of silent readership and introduce myself. I am a veterinary surgeon specialised in behaviour working in Hamburg, Germany. My main occupation is working as a vet on behaviour therapy. I have nearly finished the MSc-Course in companion animal behaviour therapy at the University of Southampton. I need as much information of the breed "Rhodesian Ridgeback" as I can get, because I just started doing some observation of puppies to gain information about the early behaviour-ontogenesis of this breed. If anyone of you can give me more information than can be read in the usual standart-books about the breed (problems in behaviour for example or predisposition for certain diseases or inherited diseases or anything else concerning the breed) I will be much thankfull. Barbara From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 11-JUN-1997 16:21:41.80 To: IN%"Marjac1@aol.com" CC: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Setting the record straight Dear Jacquelyn Martin, I'm at a loss to understand what comments you have taken offense at. But I am assuming they are comments which I wrote. Lets get a few facts in order. 1) I am not a big "expert" in applied ethology. I am a graduate student with a masters degree, presently working for a PhD. One day, if I do real well, some people MIGHT consider me an expert in SOMETHING. When that day comes I hope I will have the humility not to allow it to change who I am, or how I treat other people. I certainly have no intention of trying to represent myself as anything greater than I am. 2) The "SOMEONE" comment that Sheree Walters picked up on was intended to convey the sentiment that readers might prefer to read a book review written by a well-known and experienced scientist than a bunch of half baked remarks from ME. ( note that the only person being put down here is ME, and I am doing it to myself). 3) On this list I have recently argued against academic elitism and against restricting the scope of discussions we have here and against placing restrictions upon who was to be allowed to participate. We already had this discussion a few weeks ago. If you had been paying attention you might have noticed which side I am on. 4) I also follow the bioaccoustics list and much enjoyed the recent discussions about low-frequency vocalizations of elephants and hadrosaurs which was initiated and sustained by the interests of a very creative young list member. From time to time I get requests for information from children interested in animal behaviour topics. I find, as a rule, that they ask the most interesting and intelligent questions. On every such occasion I do my very best, within the limits of my own experience, to answer them in an intelligent and interesting way and to encourage them. I wish more of them would contribute, or pose questions to this list. I GUARANTEE that it would enhance the scope and quality of debate going on here enormously. (that remark isn't intended to demean the "grey hairs" either. Actually I think it would give them a chance to show how well they can think!) 5) I am sorry that you feel offended by my comments. If they have been open to misinterpretation then that is regretable. However, I will not consider myself responsible for your feelings. I believe my comments are reasonably unambiguous and my stance on these issues is visible, and apparently close to being identical with your own. I'm still not sure what the heck you are complaining about. In particular I have no idea WHATSOEVER where you and Sheree Walters get the idea that I am trying to discourage the creativity of children. As for being petty and infantile? NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH! Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 11 Jun 1997 Marjac1@aol.com wrote: > >From all of us who were offended by the said comments, much thanks to Sheree > Walters. It doesn't send a very good picture to the future experts in this > field that the present "experts" are often so petty and infantile. Sheree's > comments give hope to those of us who have genuine interest and love of this > field, no matter if we have acquired a PH'd now (if that is the prerequisite > to making one SOMEBODY) or are working on it presently. > Thank you to Sheree Walters, and anyone else that believes in being a > positive role model, and who has helped out the younger members of this list. > > Sincerely, > Jacquelyn Martin From: IN%"R0039586@haac.ac.uk" "PEARCE G" 12-JUN-1997 03:38:57.37 To: IN%"rhb11@hermes.cam.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: pig journal? Dear Harry, Regarding your recent comments on species specific academic journals: > However, when it came to pigs (which is a pretty big field in it's broadest > sense e.g. welfare, production [transport, farrowing, breeding etc.], > conservation [rare breeds etc.], model for physiology, cognition etc. etc. > etc.) there appears to be no major journal of equivalent academic standing. > > What do we all think of a new journal called PORCINE SCIENCE? There is of course THE PIG JOURNAL (now in its 39th volume) which (to quote its notes and guidance for authors) 'will consider original papers, short communications and review articles in the field of veterinary and allied sciences, relating to the pig'. I guess you must be familiar with this publication as I'm sure the full set of this journal must be in the library of your own department at the CUVS. If not you could check out the description (& details re. subscription etc) at the Pig Diseases Information Site on the web at http://www-pdic.vet.cam.ac.uk (also' based' in your dept.) under 'Links' , ' organizations not on the web' (The Pig Veterinary Society). Maybe this publication doesn't fit the bill as the ' high quality pig journal' you suggest is required, although the recent improvement of the refereed section may be moving towards this. I too would be very interested to hear the views of the list on the current format / content of this journal &/or the need for a 'Porcine Science' journal. Thanks for raising the topic, Gareth Pearce Dr Gareth Pearce BSc(Agr), PhD, BVSc, MRCVS Senior Lecturer in Animal Health, Harper Adams College, Newport, Shropshire, TF10 8NB, U.K. e-mail: gpearce@haac.ac.uk fax:UK 01952-814783 From: IN%"J.Burke-1@plymouth.ac.uk" 12-JUN-1997 04:14:25.78 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: liquid creep feed Does anyone have any experience of feeding suckling piglets on a liquid diet? I would be grateful for any information or references to studies on this subject. Thank you Jean Burke Jean Burke, PhD Student Seale-Hayne Faculty University of Plymouth Newton Abbot Devon TQ12 6NQ England Tel 01626 325637 Fax 01626 325605 From: IN%"RC_RUTT@compuserve.com" "R.C. Rutt" 12-JUN-1997 05:21:17.99 To: IN%"zeriah@ix.netcom.com" "Beth B. ", IN%"cat9027@aol.com" "Cat", IN%"106626.1142@compuserve.com" "Ed Davies", IN%"Ed_Davies@compuserve.com" "Ed Davies", IN%"vsuiters@earthlink.net" "Ginny", IN%"kgkat@juno.com" "KATHY Greaser", IN%"AMIRA3@aol.com CC: Subj: Change e-mail address Hello Everyone This is my final mailing from the Compuserve address, unless some disaste= r befalls the new ISP connection. Please ensure that if you have my address on file that it now reads..... rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk Hope to hear from you Chris From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 12-JUN-1997 10:29:55.13 To: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"marjac1@aol.com", IN%"reedd@cjnetworks.com" Subj: re:Book reviews and apologies... On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Sheree Walters wrote: > Dear John and All, > > I am new to the list (the past 2 months, if that). I do remember seeing > the "Holy Cow" in your signature about something in the past but I do > not save the entire list unless it relates to elephants or other > animals I am familiar or involved with. Mostly am an observer since I am > not an ethologist. First let me say that I was happy to see your reply > and sorry if there was a misunderstanding. I myself tend to say things > that are often misinterpreted because I have an unusual sense of humor, > toward the dry side I guess..I say things that need reading between the > lines. Some people get it others are offended. (becasue they missed part > of my meaning). > > You said you are unsure what comments I referred to. The comments that > bothered me and sounded as if you were putting down Maren Davis (email > address Reed Davis) were from this portion of your message:(Re: "When > Elephants Weep"). > > "Of course the ideal reviewer for a book would be someone who has > actually read ALL of it! " Maren had not finished reading the book yet > when she wrote to talk about it on the list. > > "Especially someone who IS SOMEONE. " This comment did not read as if > you were talking about yourself...It sounded like your were suggesting > that unless a person had a title they were no - one (And you are SOMEONE > too, as you know.and so is Maren. Your reply to my comments tells me > more about all of this...and offers much better meaning to what you > said.... > > The another part said: > "Then again maybe I should finish reading the book BEFORE I read the > review. Mmm... decisions, decisions... > > The decisions part sounded like the kind of comment made when someone is > suggesting that someone not very smart can't quite make up there minds > about what to do.... Or that the choice was obvious.. > > Please accept my apologies for jumping to conclusions. Perhaps if I had > heard your tone of voice I would have understood what you meant. I was > delighted to see your reply with respect to your comments in defense of > young minds..and helping them on these list as well.. > > On the bioaccoustics list, as you know there have been some comments > that were quite rude to people who tend toward the anthropomorphic or > veer from the highly technical...a different situation , frustrating > nevertheless. In one case someone was just trying to post a request for > list members to contact her about a new list that was more in keeping > with the spirit of the animals. She did not have a big discussion , > just asked if people were interested. Quite a few people signed off the > list over that one..they thought her asking was too far off the rules > of the list. > > Sorry to drag this out but in fairness to Jon Watts I felt I should > reply to all. > > Again, Jon, Thank you for your latest comments.. about learning and > sharing... > > Regards, > > "By sharing a vision perhaps we can help others expand their horizons as > well. Through the energy that most personal journeys create" S.W. > Sheree Walters Wow, this stuff can be hard work. Sheree thought I was being derogatory about Maren's post. Someone else thought I was being derogatory about Sheree's post. What a tangled web (geddit?) we are weaving. Actually I was only intending to denigrate myself a little. But I guess I can see how one could read it that way. So I should perhaps have been more careful. I'm especially sorry if Maren got the impression that I didn't value the contribution she made by citing "When elephants..." to raise questions about animal emotion. Certainly nothing could be further from the truth. I'm glad we've got all that straightened out. Jon PS If anyone ever wanted to see academic snobbery in action, they should have been subscribed to bioacoustics-l a few months ago! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"markus.stauffacher@inw.agrl.ethz.ch" "Markus Stauffacher" 12-JUN-1997 10:56:05.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Research associate position available Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH) Zurich, Switzerland Institute of Animal Sciences, Physiology and Animal Husbandry RESEARCH ASSOCIATE POSITION AVAILABLE IN THE AREA OF APPLIED ETHOLOGY, HUSBANDRY AND ANIMAL WELFARE Starting January 1st, 1998, or earlier. Your education and motivation: You hold a degree in animal sciences or veterinary medicine with a PhD or DVM, preferably in the area of animal husbandry. You have basic knowledge of ethology and animal welfare. You speak German (on a basic level) or you are willing to learn it within reasonable time. You are motivated to join a young and growing team, to take responsibility, and to solve your tasks with competence and creativity. Your job: You participate in teaching (predominantly in animal husbandry) and help to supervise undergraduate projects, Diploma and PhD theses. Your research in animal husbandry should be focussed on problems related to animal welfare (and their solution). Our offer: We offer you an opportunity to broaden your scientific experience and to develop research and teaching skills. You will get a two-year contract that can be extended up to six years. Salary and benefits will depend on your age, your education and your previous experience, but are very competitive (minimum annual salary CHF 75000). Applications are accepted until July 4th, 1997. Please send your application together with a detailed CV, including a list of publications and oral presentations, teaching experience and names of three references to Wolfgang Langhans, DVM, Professor of Animal Sciences, Institute of Animal Sciences, Physiology and Husbandry, ETH Zentrum LFW, CH-8092 Zurich (Switzerland). For further information contact Markus Stauffacher, PhD, E-mail: markus.stauffacher@inw.agrl.ethz.ch _____________________________________ Dr. Markus Stauffacher Swiss Federal Institute of Technology ETH Institute of Animal Sciences INW Physiology & Animal Husbandry ETH Zentrum TUR E 23 CH-8092 Z=FCrich (Switzerland) Phone: +41.1.632.64.91 Fax: +41.1.632.10.69 E-mail: markus.stauffacher@inw.agrl.ethz.ch ______________________________________ From: IN%"rhb11@hermes.cam.ac.uk" 12-JUN-1997 11:21:50.85 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: liquid creep feed With reference to my question concerning the creation of a new journal called 'Porcine Science' one interesting finding has so far come to light. There is a journal called 'Swine Health and Production' which is in about the fifth issue. I note that it is on BIDS from 1997. Harry Bradshaw This came to light through the Managing Director of the Pig Disease Information Centre Dr M. Meredith, 4 New Close Farm Business Park, Bar Road, Lolworth, Cambs., CB3 8DS, UK [http://www-pdic.vet.cam.ac.uk] Dr R. H. Bradshaw, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge, Madingley Road, Cambridge CB3 OES, UK. From: IN%"harrism@sask.usask.ca" 13-JUN-1997 00:32:38.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "etho-list" CC: IN%"HARRISM@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Want e-mail addresses please Can somebody let me know the e-mail addresses of Katherine Houpt and Alistair Lawrence and (if she has one), Sarah Blaffer Hrdy? Dr. Blaffer Hrdy's current snail mail address would be an acceptable alternative if no-one knows her email. I will willingly accept messages from anyone in posession of the requisite information, regardless of his/her age, experience or qualifications! Ta, - Moira Harris From: IN%"marie.haskell@bbsrc.ac.uk" "Marie Haskell" 13-JUN-1997 02:28:13.20 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Want e-mail addresses please Dear Moira, I'm pretty sure that Alistair Lawrence's e-mail address is a.lawrence@ed.sac.ac.uk You may get 1000s of people telling you the same thing, but just in case...... Best wishes, Marie Haskell marie.haskell@bbsrc.ac.uk From: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" 13-JUN-1997 08:35:32.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dogs and Biochemists Dear Applied Ethologists et al., Today's (6/13/97) Washington Post reports that the issue of _Science_ to be released today contains an article which contends that based on DNA analysis the domestication of dogs began around 135,000 years ago! (This of course is about 10 times more than what the current fossil records indicate.) A research team from Univ California-LA, Brigham Young Univ, Texas A&M Univ and the Royal Instit of Tech in Sweden took DNA from 140 dogs and compared it to that from wolves, coyotes and jackals. According to the Post article, the team leader R.K. Wayne (UCLA) "said ... that the group was shocked at the breadth of dog's genetic diversity as well as the degree to which they had diverged from wolves. That implies considerable antiquity because the 'only way that diversity accumulates is through DNA mutations over time, and 14,000 years is not enough time for many mutations to appear,' he said" Whoa!!! Gradualism is not the only way that genetic divergence can occur. While one should wait and see the actual article before drawing too many conclusions about the report, at first appearance this article appears to severely flawed. In fact from what I have read in the Post, I would suggest that the conclusion should _not_ be that 135,000 years are necessary to explain the divergence. Rather I think the DNA results indicate that: Simple mutation-type gradualism is _not_ a sufficient explanation for the genetic divergence expressed during the 14,000 years of the dog domestication process. Therefore, some other genetic explanation for the divergence is necessary. (My contention.) This report reminds me of a comment Chuck Snowden made about 5 years ago in his presidential presentation to the Animal Behavior Society which was to the effect, "When biochemists discover evolution, then real progress will be made." The Post article seems to indicate that some biochemists have made their way up in their discovery process to the level of beginner's Darwinism. Let us hope that not too many years will pass before more current principles of evolution are discovered, or maybe I should say re-discovered, by the molecular scientists. An optimism might hope that these researchers could even someday begin to establish the molecular basis for neoteny and its probable role in domestication - especially as it relates to behavior? W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland W. Ray STRICKLIN Email:W_RAY_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu (ws31) Phone:51382 From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 13-JUN-1997 09:18:23.73 To: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" "ws31" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Dogs and Biochemists On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, ws31 wrote: > In fact from what I have read in the Post, I would suggest that the conclusion > should _not_ be that 135,000 years are necessary to explain the divergence. > Rather I think the DNA results indicate that: > > Simple mutation-type gradualism is _not_ a sufficient > explanation for the genetic divergence expressed during > the 14,000 years of the dog domestication process. > Therefore, some other genetic explanation for the divergence > is necessary. (My contention.) I've never truly understood how fossil dating can be done based on a DNA "molecular clock" argument. I can appreciate how C14 or potassium-argon dating or whatever works, where one isotope decays to another with a certain half-life. This makes dating possible to a certain degree of uncertainty (sic), depending on the method used and the age of the materials. The DNA clock argument seems to have the obvious flaw that anatomically the fossils often show periods of relative stability through successive rock strata (read "time"), then change (evolve) relatively suddenly. So phenotypically, the fossils support the idea of evolution by a process of "punctuated equilibrium". So are we to conclude that the "gene clock" and the "phene clock" run out of synch with each other? Well we know that can't be right, don't we? Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Applied Ethologists et al., > > Today's (6/13/97) Washington Post reports that the issue of _Science_ > to be released today contains an article which contends that based on DNA > analysis the domestication of dogs began around 135,000 years ago! (This of > course is about 10 times more than what the current fossil records indicate.) > > A research team from Univ California-LA, Brigham Young Univ, Texas A&M Univ and > the Royal Instit of Tech in Sweden took DNA from 140 dogs and compared it to > that from wolves, coyotes and jackals. > > According to the Post article, the team leader R.K. Wayne (UCLA) "said ... > that the group was shocked at the breadth of dog's genetic diversity as well > as the degree to which they had diverged from wolves. That implies > considerable antiquity because the 'only way that diversity accumulates is > through DNA mutations over time, and 14,000 years is not enough time for many > mutations to appear,' he said" > > > > Whoa!!! Gradualism is not the only way that genetic divergence can occur. > While one should wait and see the actual article before drawing too many > conclusions about the report, at first appearance this article appears to > severely flawed. > > The Post article seems to indicate that some biochemists have made their way > up in their discovery process to the level of beginner's Darwinism. Let us > hope that not too many years will pass before more current principles of > evolution are discovered, or maybe I should say re-discovered, by the molecular > scientists. An optimism might hope that these researchers could even someday > begin to establish the molecular basis for neoteny and its probable role in > domestication - especially as it relates to behavior? > > W. Ray Stricklin > University of Maryland > > > W. Ray STRICKLIN > Email:W_RAY_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu (ws31) > Phone:51382 From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 13-JUN-1997 10:19:28.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: clocks earlier I asked: "...are we to conclude that the "gene clock" and the "phene clock" run out of synch with each other? Well we know that can't be right, don't we? " I thought about it a bit more and figured that maybe they can APPEAR to be out of synch. Suppose that mutations do actually occur at a steady rate, but that most of them are unexpressed phenotypically. Or at any rate not in parts that survive fossilization. A particularly important mutation at a critical locus, or a change in the environment (or an artificial selection pressure, i.e. domestication) could cause considerable change in the form and habit of the animal in a smaller number of generations. The survivors being those which were genetically "pre-adapted" to the new conditions. The argument in the article Ray Stricklin was criticising could still be wrong though. 1) Just because the observed change could be explained under a gradual genetic/punctuated phenotypic evolution scenario, doesn't necessarily mean that this is what happened. I think you'd need more evidence to prove that gene mutations do actually accumulate at a fairly steady rate. 2) If the above explanation is true then it doesn't mean that domestication started 135,000 years ago. It actually would imply that maybe 10,000 years or so ago, domestication began to exploit 125,000 years of accumulated mutations in a variety, subspecies, strain or whatever of canid which had already begun to diverge somewhat, genetically, from its wolfish ancestor. Though it may not yet have looked a lot different. Maybe this is where neotony comes in. Perhaps the preadaptation of the dog to domestication was primarily expressed as a behavioural change. Some canids began to exploit a niche of living close to humans. The humans tolerated them as scroungers and because they could warn of strangers. The dogs able to best exploit this environment were those who were able to form social attachments to the humans. This might be considered a neotonous characteristic if expressed in an adult animal. It would be much later perhaps that humans began to purposely breed dogs for cooperative hunting or for cute, and neotonous, characteristics like short faces. So maybe it all comes from an invisible (palaeontologically) evolution towards extended infantlike attachment forming capabilities among those dogs which typically hung around humans. They chose us, not vice-versa. Then again, it's not like I really know anything about all this. Genetic mutations or canine domestication. Wouldn't mind hearing comments from people who do though. Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"pherosynthese@wanadoo.fr" 16-JUN-1997 00:48:01.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: pig cortisol To the specialists in pig behavior and welfare : What is the easiest means to measure cortisol in 3 week-old piglets : venipuncture, urine sampling? Thanks in advance. Yann Tessier, DVM France From: IN%"arowan@OPAL.TUFTS.EDU" 16-JUN-1997 07:43:37.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: DNA Evolution It has been quite some time since I received my DPhil in Biochemistry (!) but, at the considerable risk of adding to the dross on the Internet, I would like to respond to Ray's and Jon's comments on biochemists and dog evolution. Back in 1975, there was a lot of argument about so-called "neutral" mutations which could accumulate over time in DNA without having any noticeable effect on the protein's function. For example, the DNA triplet code has built in redundancy such that many amino acids are coded for by two to four DNA-triplets that differ only in the final base. If you change a base in the third position of the triplet code for another that gives the same amino acid then that mutation was presumed to be virtually "invisible" to the phenotype. In addition, some amino acids in the protein structure may be swapped for others (e.g. aspartate for glutamate - both acidic side chains; or leucine for isoleucine - both hydrophobic side chains) also without having any noticeable effect on protein function (let alone on behavior which is several levels of organization removed from the action of a single protein). The rate at which the DNA sequence for certain proteins changes (e.g. cytochrome c in the electron transport chain) is considered to be constant and the more variation there is, the longer it has been since the two species diverged from a common ancestor. In recent times, mitochondrial DNA has been used as a "molecular clock" to determine evolutionary distance and it is considered to be a reasonably reliable clock. I have long since ceased to follow the arguments about the validity of the DNA clock but we should probably give Science some credit for having reviewers who are up to date in the topic. Of course they are probably biochemists rather than behavioral scientists and may not have had any notion about the potential accelarating effects of selection driven by human domesticators on mitochondrial DNA. As Ray says, we will have to see whether that topic is addressed in the actual paper. Andrew Andrew N Rowan Director Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy School of Veterinary Medicine 200 Westboro Rd N. Grafton, MA 01536 Phone: (508) 839 7991; Fax: (508) 839 2953 Email: arowan@opal.tufts.edu