From: IN%"d.b.morton@bham.ac.uk" "David Morton" 1-JUN-1998 00:59:23.38 To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" CC: IN%"jhorsley@fargocity.com", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" Subj: RE: Morality, Darwinism, and sexual dimorphism Dear Ray, Just a quick note to say I agreed with much of what you wrote, bar the odd point, and also that when I talk to kids in England I get pretty much the same responses and sex differences as you did. I wonder if Steven Kellert has charted this in any scientific way and if it is the same across cultures, socioeconomic classes etc? I hope for ethical analysis (ie less of the old traditional philosophy that used to be taught in France), to be taught in schools. Of course religious studies did this up to a point, but that is disappearing in a multifaith/secular world, sometimes being deemed politically incorrect (ironic?) and in any event it was too didactic (tablets of stone down from mountains etc). As far as I am aware, some schools are introducing ethics as a subject under general studies but not really in any organised way, nor is it examined as the subject of ethics. You also wrote: "From a very selfish viewpoint, I certainly hope so. I hope the attitudes of these young people are only a phase in their lives and don't reflect what the world will be like once I reach my retirement phase of life!" Maybe it's a clinical sign of old age that you worry about this? Sadly, unlike Romulus and Remus old people get eaten by animals!! David Prof. David B. Morton, Head Centre for Biomedical Ethics & Director Biomedical Services Unit University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham B15 2TT UK Tel. + 44 (0)121 414 3616/4517 Fax + 44 (0)121 414 6979/6842 Email From: IN%"j.mann@ed.sac.ac.uk" "Jacquie Mann" 1-JUN-1998 08:33:45.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (Fwd) Finches ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:23:45 +0100 From: Susan Alexander Organization: Quintiles, Inc. To: j.mann@ed.sac.ac.uk Subject: Finches Hi Jacqui Here is what I would like to know. My male and female Zebra finch have lived together for 3 years in the same cage, but recently she has begun to attack the male finch and has in fact removed all of the feathers down the middle section of his back.He is now getting incredibly thin and poor looking due to the amount of hassle she is giving him, as she is even chasing him off all of the perches. Does anyone know why she may have suddenly begun this after 3 years together with no previous problems? Susan Alexander e-mail at :- SALEXAND@QEDI.QUINTILES.COM Although I've been studying feather pecking for three years ,it's specific to poultry,so I'm afraid I can't help. Does anybody else out there have an answer? Jacqui Jacquie Mann Behaviour Section GABS Dept. Bush Estate Penicuik TEL +44 (0)131 5353208 FAX +44 (0)131 5353121 e-mail: j.mann@ed.sac.ac.uk ____________________________________ From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 1-JUN-1998 09:13:33.85 To: IN%"j.mann@ed.sac.ac.uk" "Jacquie Mann" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: (Fwd) Finches On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Jacquie Mann wrote: [....]> > My male and female Zebra finch have lived together for 3 years in the > same cage, but recently she has begun to attack the male finch and has in > fact removed all of the feathers down the middle section of his back.He > is now getting incredibly thin and poor looking due to the amount of > hassle she is giving him, as she is even chasing him off all of the > perches. > Does anyone know why she may have suddenly begun this after 3 years > together with no previous problems? > > Susan Alexander > e-mail at :- SALEXAND@QEDI.QUINTILES.COM > > Although I've been studying feather pecking for three years ,it's specific > to poultry,so I'm afraid I can't help. > Does anybody else out there have an answer? I'll jump in with a wild guess. How does this sound: in some species (for instance, I recall studies in dogs), the loss of female hormones (as through spaying) may lead to an increase in aggressive behavior. Perhaps this female finch has become non-reproductive, and is no longer willing to share resources with a male whom she no longer perceives as a mate. I anxiously await the derision to come. ;-) Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/stereo.html the stereotypical behaviors database ================================================== I am always willing to learn, however I do not always like to be taught. -- Winston Churchill From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 1-JUN-1998 13:14:04.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: (Fwd) Finches In a message dated 98-06-01 11:28:24 EDT, you write: << I'll jump in with a wild guess. How does this sound: in some species (for instance, I recall studies in dogs), the loss of female hormones (as through spaying) may lead to an increase in aggressive behavior. Perhaps this female finch has become non-reproductive, and is no longer willing to share resources with a male whom she no longer perceives as a mate. I anxiously await the derision to come. ;-) >> No derision from here, because you may be right. It also could be the male has had a hormonal change, and the female no longer considers him male enough to share resources with. I used to raise finches, and observed this kind of behavior when one was in a weakened state due to age or nutritional deficiencies. Nutritional deficiencies are often contributory on both sides (weakened male, abnormal aggression in female). Have the birds been getting greens and live food (meal worms, maggots)? If not, I can promise you they have some form of malnutrition. Also, unnatural confinement causes a depression in some birds that will result in others attacking them, and will result in neurotic behaviors in others. Unfortunately, the average pet bird owner has no way of knowing the age of the bird when they purchase it. Many breeders that are wearing out go in with young birds that are shipped for sale. Do they have a nest box? Have there been any eggs? If not, they are old, malnourished, or stressed. I would seperate them, putting cages side by side. Put low wattage light bulb over male to help speed metabolism and offer a lot of good food, and a nesting box. However, my guess is he is dying, and the female knows it. Kathy Hughes From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 1-JUN-1998 13:45:23.01 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Self trauma The fundamental answer is that the patient finds success through licking the paw. This could possibly be through the release of endorphins, or other internal physiological sequences, but it is almost certainly associated with large amounts of attention from the dog's owners, i.e. dog licks -> owner checks foot -> dog licks -> owner sooths -> dog licks -> owner yells -> dog licks -> owner bandages -> dog licks -> owner responds ad infinitum -> dog licks ad infinitum. In all of this the patient is continuously reinforced for her licking. That is, from her perspective, the licking behavior is successful. The obvious answer (treatment) for this licking is to make the licking unsuccessful (cease reinforcing this undesired behavior). This means that the owners must take no notice (that the patient can discern) of the licking at any time. In fact, when the dog takes any notice of her own foot, the owners should casually leave the area where the dog is. This ignoring MUST BE 100% PERFECT (not even a glance . . ever) if it is to be successful. Quite often antianxieaty drugs are a very useful adjunct to control the internal factors. Clomipramine is a common first choice. Do not depend on just drug treatment. Without the behav. mod. the patient is much less likely to learn new and appropriate behavior that will carry on after the drugs have been weaned away. Reply to message from heltonws@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU of Thu, 28 May > >Hello All, > I have a friend who has a Great Dane. The Dane injured her paw, >and although the paw has healed, the Dane keeps licking it to the point of >reinjury. They have tried taping it up, but she chews through it. They >tried faul tasting stuff, but she kept on licking anyways. Does anyone >have any other ideas? I would appreciate it. > Thanks, > Will > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp" "Janice Willard" 1-JUN-1998 22:23:48.07 To: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" CC: IN%"heltonws@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Self trauma I am a little bit concerned with this analysis. I think that attention getting behavior is one possible rule-out here, but I wouldn't like, at this point, to have that as the only possibility. Two other possibilities (and I'm sure there are more) come to mind: 1) the humans involved believe that the foot is healed, but the dog might have a different perspective on the matter. Perhaps a nerve was injured and now the foot feels odd or slightly painful. Neuromas can get worse with re-injury, as this dog has been doing. I think medical causes should be ruled-out first. 2) the foot-licking may well be a stress-releasor (like biting fingernails) but may be associated with some other stressor in the enviornment and not be associated with the owner's behavior. That being the case, changing the owner's behavior toward the dog has the possibility of increasing its stress level. I would be apprehensive starting on a path of drugs and behavior mod at this point without a more clear picture of cause. At 03:44 PM 6/1/98 -0400, you wrote: > > The fundamental answer is that the patient finds success through >licking the paw. This could possibly be through the release of >endorphins, or other internal physiological sequences, but it is >almost certainly associated with large amounts of attention from >the dog's owners, i.e. dog licks -> owner checks foot -> dog licks >-> owner sooths -> dog licks -> owner yells -> dog licks -> owner >bandages -> dog licks -> owner responds ad infinitum -> dog licks >ad infinitum. In all of this the patient is continuously reinforced >for her licking. That is, from her perspective, the licking behavior >is successful. > The obvious answer (treatment) for this licking is to make the >licking unsuccessful (cease reinforcing this undesired behavior). >This means that the owners must take no notice (that the patient can >discern) of the licking at any time. In fact, when the dog takes any >notice of her own foot, the owners should casually leave the area >where the dog is. > This ignoring MUST BE 100% PERFECT (not even a glance . . ever) >if it is to be successful. > Quite often antianxieaty drugs are a very useful adjunct to >control the internal factors. Clomipramine is a common first choice. >Do not depend on just drug treatment. Without the behav. mod. the >patient is much less likely to learn new and appropriate behavior that >will carry on after the drugs have been weaned away. > > >Reply to message from heltonws@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU of Thu, 28 May >> >>Hello All, >> I have a friend who has a Great Dane. The Dane injured her paw, >>and although the paw has healed, the Dane keeps licking it to the point of >>reinjury. They have tried taping it up, but she chews through it. They >>tried faul tasting stuff, but she kept on licking anyways. Does anyone >>have any other ideas? I would appreciate it. >> Thanks, >> Will >> >> > >-- > ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 > *************************************************************************** Janice Willard, DVM MS Loathe to let spring go Tokyo 194, Machida-shi Birds cry and even fishes' Higashi Tamagawa Gakuen Eyes are wet with tears. 1-33-66 Japan Basho Phone/FAX (81)427-29-4519 Message FAX (81)427-21-2850 jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp From: IN%"boris@lds.co.uk" "Yvonne Miles" 2-JUN-1998 02:25:21.18 To: IN%"jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp" "Janice Willard", IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" "D.B. Cameron, DVM" CC: IN%"heltonws@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Self trauma This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Z7nm521AeE0tEdfqSI+/hQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My parents have a long haired cross breed, who not only licks but chews all four paws. Not in any order. He started with a fungal infection which was treated, but can not now stop this constant paw grooming. He sneaks off into another room to attend to the paws and environmental stimulus does not help in drawing his attention away from this (what seems) stereotypical behaviour. There is no medical problem, as numerous visits to the vet have proved fruitless but costly. Would it be wise to try the suggestion of D.B. Cameron or would it be wise to just let it be. He is 12 years old and has no, seemingly, environmental stresses. Advice would be appreciated. ---------- > From: Janice Willard > To: D.B. Cameron, DVM > Cc: heltonws@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Self trauma > Date: 02 June 1998 05:25 > > I am a little bit concerned with this analysis. I think that attention > getting behavior is one possible rule-out here, but I wouldn't like, at this > point, to have that as the only possibility. Two other possibilities (and > I'm sure there are more) come to mind: 1) the humans involved believe that > the foot is healed, but the dog might have a different perspective on the > matter. Perhaps a nerve was injured and now the foot feels odd or slightly > painful. Neuromas can get worse with re-injury, as this dog has been doing. > I think medical causes should be ruled-out first. 2) the foot-licking may > well be a stress-releasor (like biting fingernails) but may be associated > with some other stressor in the enviornment and not be associated with the > owner's behavior. That being the case, changing the owner's behavior toward > the dog has the possibility of increasing its stress level. I would be > apprehensive starting on a path of drugs and behavior mod at this point > without a more clear picture of cause. > > > At 03:44 PM 6/1/98 -0400, you wrote: > > > > The fundamental answer is that the patient finds success through > >licking the paw. This could possibly be through the release of > >endorphins, or other internal physiological sequences, but it is > >almost certainly associated with large amounts of attention from > >the dog's owners, i.e. dog licks -> owner checks foot -> dog licks > >-> owner sooths -> dog licks -> owner yells -> dog licks -> owner > >bandages -> dog licks -> owner responds ad infinitum -> dog licks > >ad infinitum. In all of this the patient is continuously reinforced > >for her licking. That is, from her perspective, the licking behavior > >is successful. > > The obvious answer (treatment) for this licking is to make the > >licking unsuccessful (cease reinforcing this undesired behavior). > >This means that the owners must take no notice (that the patient can > >discern) of the licking at any time. In fact, when the dog takes any > >notice of her own foot, the owners should casually leave the area > >where the dog is. > > This ignoring MUST BE 100% PERFECT (not even a glance . . ever) > >if it is to be successful. > > Quite often antianxieaty drugs are a very useful adjunct to > >control the internal factors. Clomipramine is a common first choice. > >Do not depend on just drug treatment. Without the behav. mod. the > >patient is much less likely to learn new and appropriate behavior that > >will carry on after the drugs have been weaned away. > > > > > >Reply to message from heltonws@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU of Thu, 28 May > >> > >>Hello All, > >> I have a friend who has a Great Dane. The Dane injured her paw, > >>and although the paw has healed, the Dane keeps licking it to the point of > >>reinjury. They have tried taping it up, but she chews through it. They > >>tried faul tasting stuff, but she kept on licking anyways. Does anyone > >>have any other ideas? I would appreciate it. > >> Thanks, > >> Will > >> > >> > > > >-- > > ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > > < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > > ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > > .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 > > > > > *************************************************************************** > Janice Willard, DVM MS Loathe to let spring go > Tokyo 194, Machida-shi Birds cry and even fishes' > Higashi Tamagawa Gakuen Eyes are wet with tears. > 1-33-66 > Japan Basho > Phone/FAX (81)427-29-4519 > Message FAX (81)427-21-2850 > jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp > > > > --Boundary_(ID_Z7nm521AeE0tEdfqSI+/hQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

My parents have a long haired cross = breed, who not only licks but chews all four paws.  Not in any = order.
He started with a fungal infection which was treated, but can = not now stop this constant paw grooming. He sneaks off into another room = to attend to the paws and environmental stimulus does not help in = drawing his attention away from this (what seems) stereotypical = behaviour. There is no medical problem, as numerous visits to the vet = have proved fruitless but costly. Would it be wise to try the suggestion = of D.B. Cameron or would it be wise to just let it be.  He is 12 = years old and has no, seemingly, environmental stresses.

Advice = would be appreciated.
----------
> From: Janice Willard = <jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp>
> To: D.B. Cameron, DVM <aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
> Cc: heltonws@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Subject: Re: Self trauma
> Date: 02 = June 1998 05:25
>
> I am a little bit concerned with this = analysis.  I think that attention
> getting behavior is one = possible rule-out here, but I wouldn't like, at this
> point, to = have that as the only possibility.  Two other possibilities = (and
> I'm sure there are more) come to mind:  1) the humans = involved believe that
> the foot is healed, but the dog might have = a different perspective on the
> matter.  Perhaps a nerve was = injured and now the foot feels odd or slightly
> painful. =  Neuromas can get worse with re-injury, as this dog has been = doing.
> I think medical causes should be ruled-out first. =  2) the foot-licking may
> well be a stress-releasor (like = biting fingernails) but may be associated
> with some other = stressor in the enviornment and not be associated with the
> = owner's behavior.  That being the case, changing the owner's = behavior toward
> the dog has the possibility of increasing its = stress level.  I would be
> apprehensive starting on a path = of drugs and behavior mod at this point
> without a more clear = picture of cause.    
>
>
> At 03:44 = PM 6/1/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > =     The fundamental answer is that the patient finds = success through
> >licking the paw. This could possibly be = through the release of
> >endorphins, or other internal = physiological sequences, but it is
> >almost certainly = associated with large amounts of attention from
> >the dog's = owners, i.e. dog licks -> owner checks foot -> dog licks
> = >-> owner sooths -> dog licks -> owner yells -> dog licks = -> owner
> >bandages -> dog licks -> owner responds ad = infinitum -> dog licks
> >ad infinitum. In all of this the = patient is continuously reinforced
> >for her licking. That is, = from her perspective, the licking behavior
> >is = successful.
> >     The obvious answer = (treatment) for this licking is to make the
> >licking = unsuccessful (cease reinforcing this undesired behavior).
> = >This means that the owners must take no notice (that the patient = can
> >discern) of the licking at any time. In fact, when the = dog takes any
> >notice of her own foot, the owners should = casually leave the area
> >where the dog is.
> > =     This ignoring MUST BE 100% PERFECT (not even a = glance . . ever)
> >if it is to be successful.
> > =     Quite often antianxieaty drugs are a very useful = adjunct to
> >control the internal factors. Clomipramine is a = common first choice.
> >Do not depend on just drug treatment. = Without the behav. mod. the
> >patient is much less likely to = learn new and appropriate behavior that
> >will carry on after = the drugs have been weaned away.
> >
> >
> = >Reply to message from heltonws@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU of Thu, 28 May
> >>
> >>Hello = All,
> >> I have a friend who has a Great Dane. The = Dane injured her paw,
> >>and although the paw has healed, = the Dane keeps licking it to the point of
> >>reinjury. = They have tried taping it up, but she chews through it. They
> = >>tried faul tasting stuff, but she kept on licking anyways. Does = anyone
> >>have any other ideas? I would appreciate it. =
> >> Thanks,
> = >> Will
> = >>
> >>
> >
> >--
> > =    ^    ^ =      DBC   (aka D.B. Cameron, = DVM)
> >   < \  / > =     Animal Behavior = Clinic 440/826-0013
> >     ! =  !       18250 Main = Street Fx: 234-3407
> > =      .. =        Middleburg Hts., OH = 44130
> >
>
>
> = *************************************************************************= **
> Janice Willard, DVM MS =             &= nbsp;        Loathe to let = spring go    
> Tokyo 194, Machida-shi =             &= nbsp;        Birds cry and even = fishes'
> Higashi Tamagawa Gakuen =             &= nbsp;       Eyes are wet with = tears.
> 1-33-66
> Japan =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;    Basho
> Phone/FAX = (81)427-29-4519
> Message FAX (81)427-21-2850
> jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp
>
>
> =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;         
> =

--Boundary_(ID_Z7nm521AeE0tEdfqSI+/hQ)-- From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 2-JUN-1998 06:53:32.98 To: IN%"boris@lds.co.uk" "Yvonne Miles" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Self trauma On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Yvonne Miles wrote: > My parents have a long haired cross breed, who not only licks but chews all > four paws. Not in any order. > He started with a fungal infection which was treated, but can not now stop > this constant paw grooming. He sneaks off into another room to attend to > the paws and environmental stimulus does not help in drawing his attention > away from this (what seems) stereotypical behaviour. There is no medical > problem, as numerous visits to the vet have proved fruitless but costly. > Would it be wise to try the suggestion of D.B. Cameron or would it be wise > to just let it be. He is 12 years old and has no, seemingly, environmental > stresses. > Don't forget the possibility of allergies. In dogs allergic reactions can cause "itchy feet" as you're seeing. Ione From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 2-JUN-1998 08:13:36.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Self trauma -REPONSE I also am concerned at the readiness of canine behaviourists to propose conditioning explanations of all sorts of behaviour problems (and basically to blame the owners). Surely one possibility is that the wound is itchy or still hurts. This could be tested using local anaesthetics. Shouldn't these obvious explanations be eliminated before we start trying to cook up complex conditioning explanations. Explantions of behaviour that rely almost entirely on "conditioning" are long dead in most areas of behavioural science, but they seem to be alive and well in canine ethology. Are they ever actually tested out? Is there any actual evidence that an animal can be made to perform self-injurious behaviour through rewards, especially "social" rewards from people? I have heard behaviourists propose such conditioning explanations for all kinds of weird behaviours. Is social reinforcement really that strong? Or are we practicing self-delusion, believing that since pets have a strong emotional impact on our lives, that we are an equally important factor in the lives of pets? Blaming owners for their pets problems reminds me of the bad old days in psychiatry when parents were blamed for their kids mental illness. Is this science or psuedo-science? Jeff Rushen In response to:> The fundamental answer is that the patient finds success through >licking the paw. This could possibly be through the release of >endorphins, or other internal physiological sequences, but it is >almost certainly associated with large amounts of attention from >the dog's owners, >>> Janice Willard 02/06/ 00h25 >>> I am a little bit concerned with this analysis. I think that attention getting behavior is one possible rule-out here, but I wouldn't like, at this point, to have that as the only possibility. >>>> I From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 2-JUN-1998 16:53:45.22 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Self trauma I am a little bit concerned that you are concerned. In the real world (not this virtual world) of course, the first thing to do is a full work up, medical area first. I fear I cut the process short having only (in effect) a letter to the editor and a keyboard in front of me, not a real person with a real, 3-D problem. I apologise to all for being so professionally flip. Reply to message from jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp of Tue, 02 Jun > >I am a little bit concerned with this analysis. I think that attention >getting behavior is one possible rule-out here, but I wouldn't like, at this >point, to have that as the only possibility. Two other possibilities (and >I'm sure there are more) come to mind: 1) the humans involved believe that >the foot is healed, but the dog might have a different perspective on the >matter. Perhaps a nerve was injured and now the foot feels odd or slightly >painful. Neuromas can get worse with re-injury, as this dog has been doing. >I think medical causes should be ruled-out first. 2) the foot-licking may >well be a stress-releasor (like biting fingernails) but may be associated >with some other stressor in the enviornment and not be associated with the >owner's behavior. That being the case, changing the owner's behavior toward >the dog has the possibility of increasing its stress level. I would be >apprehensive starting on a path of drugs and behavior mod at this point >without a more clear picture of cause. > > >At 03:44 PM 6/1/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >> The fundamental answer is that the patient finds success through >>licking the paw. This could possibly be through the release of >>endorphins, or other internal physiological sequences, but it is >>almost certainly associated with large amounts of attention from >>the dog's owners, i.e. dog licks -> owner checks foot -> dog licks >>-> owner sooths -> dog licks -> owner yells -> dog licks -> owner >>bandages -> dog licks -> owner responds ad infinitum -> dog licks >>ad infinitum. In all of this the patient is continuously reinforced >>for her licking. That is, from her perspective, the licking behavior >>is successful. >> The obvious answer (treatment) for this licking is to make the >>licking unsuccessful (cease reinforcing this undesired behavior). >>This means that the owners must take no notice (that the patient can >>discern) of the licking at any time. In fact, when the dog takes any >>notice of her own foot, the owners should casually leave the area >>where the dog is. >> This ignoring MUST BE 100% PERFECT (not even a glance . . ever) >>if it is to be successful. >> Quite often antianxieaty drugs are a very useful adjunct to >>control the internal factors. Clomipramine is a common first choice. >>Do not depend on just drug treatment. Without the behav. mod. the >>patient is much less likely to learn new and appropriate behavior that >>will carry on after the drugs have been weaned away. >> >> >>Reply to message from heltonws@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU of Thu, 28 May >>> >>>Hello All, >>> I have a friend who has a Great Dane. The Dane injured her paw, >>>and although the paw has healed, the Dane keeps licking it to the point of >>>reinjury. They have tried taping it up, but she chews through it. They >>>tried faul tasting stuff, but she kept on licking anyways. Does anyone >>>have any other ideas? I would appreciate it. >>> Thanks, >>> Will >>> >>> >> >>-- >> ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) >> < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 >> ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 >> .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 >> > > >*************************************************************************** >Janice Willard, DVM MS Loathe to let spring go >Tokyo 194, Machida-shi Birds cry and even fishes' >Higashi Tamagawa Gakuen Eyes are wet with tears. >1-33-66 >Japan Basho >Phone/FAX (81)427-29-4519 >Message FAX (81)427-21-2850 >jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 2-JUN-1998 22:13:46.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Self trauma -REPONSE 195 Message #195 (196 is last): Date: Tue Jun 2 10:14:11 1998 From: rushenj@EM.AGR.CA (Jeff Rushen Subject: Re: Self trauma -REPONSE To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >I also am concerned at the readiness of canine >behaviourists to propose conditioning explanations of all >sorts of behaviour problems (and basically to blame the >owners). Surely one possibility is that the wound is itchy or >still hurts. This could be tested using local anaesthetics. >Shouldn't these obvious explanations be eliminated before >we start trying to cook up complex conditioning >explanations. Of course you are correct. I have already apologized for being less than technically letter perfect in my answer to the original question. Adding a simple, "Assuming all medical reasons for this licking have been excluded, . . ." would have been so simple and saved me a lot of explanation. To say that such a procedure is a routine part of my protocol is both factual and a bit late. >Explanations of behaviour that rely almost >entirely on "conditioning" are long dead in most areas of >behavioral science, That is really too bad for "most areas of behavioral science". The act of pronouncing something real and alive as "dead" does not change reality. That the continents fit together was once considered a dead end concept. Plate tectonics has brought it back to vigorous life. >but they seem to be alive and well in >canine ethology. We live there. The concept works for us. >Are they ever actually tested out? I wish I could offer specifics. Perhaps some of the academics in the field can help out here. >Is there >any actual evidence that an animal can be made to perform >self-injurious behaviour through rewards, especially "social" >rewards from people? Dogs that are predisposed by genetics to chase their tails have been known to chew them very severely (often leading to amputation) through the "magic" of learned behavior. >I have heard behaviourists propose >such conditioning explanations for all kinds of weird >behaviours. Is social reinforcement really that strong? Social reinforcement in dogs is as strong or stronger than food rewards. Dogs and even cats can easily be taught to work hard for a conditioned reinforcer; a whistle, a "clicker", etc. And this is certainly not limited to these species. How do you think they get orcas to do back flips in pools? Alternatively, go to any grocery store in this country on a Saturday and watch mothers reinforce behaviors of their children. The effective mothers do it effectively and reinforce desired behavior. The less effective mothers quite reliably reinforce (through yelling, spanking, etc.) exactly the behavior that they do not want. Effective reinforcing of self-destructive behavior in any species would seem well within the confines of this paradigm. >Or are >we practicing self-delusion, believing that since pets have a >strong emotional impact on our lives, that we are an equally >important factor in the lives of pets? You have it completely wrong. The conventional wisdom that dogs want to please us is ridiculous. There is absolutely no evidence or even suspicion that this is the case. However, like the rest of mammalian species, dogs work for success. The trick to understanding this is to understand what THE SUBJECT (the dog) perceives as success. That is, it is intuitive that yelling, even spanking, should be perceived by the subject as an indication of failure. The fact is that ANY ATTENTION is reliably perceived by the subject as preferable to ignoring. That is, the ineffective correction (yelling, hitting) is perceived by the subject as a successful outcome of his behavior. Thus, positive social attention is a powerful force, and negative social attention is nearly as powerful. I am certainly not breaking new ground here as these concepts are well known and actively used in both human and animal behavior therapy. The only reason I present them here is that this power seems to be severely questioned. >Blaming owners for their >pets problems reminds me of the bad old days in psychiatry >when parents were blamed for their kids mental illness. We are not dealing with mental illness here (an exceedingly rare canine event). We are dealing with BEHAVIOR, often quite normal behavior. >Is this science or psuedo-science? I will let this one alone as I do not wish to deal with what seems to be a crude, ignorant insult to a well accepted profession. >Jeff Rushen >In response to:> The fundamental answer is that the >patient finds success through >licking the paw. This could >possibly be through the release of >endorphins, or other >internal physiological sequences, but it is >almost certainly >associated with large amounts of attention from >the dog's owners, -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 2-JUN-1998 23:56:23.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Self trauma -Reflection Well, here comes the know-nothing schmuck with not much other than practical experience and observation to back up her statements. In other words, the lay person. Many years ago, in my far distant younger days, I was a foster parent. I dealt with some pretty hard-core problem kids. Some of them were being treated at Lafayette Clinic in Detroit, and I received a real education on Transactional Analysis theory and a lot of other things working with kids who were in treatment at Lafayette. One thing I know to be true. For children negative attention IS far better than no attention. Some of these kids would engage in various kinds of self mutilation. Beating their heads on the walls or floors hard enough to do serious damage, jumping off of things for the purpose of breaking something, slashing their bodies etc. Others would simply commit any act they knew would bring punishment. There were kids who were programmed to act in a manner that would insure physical abuse in their original environment. You see, in their original environment they were invisible unless they were being abused, and being invisible is much more painful than being abused. So, anyone who wants to know if conditioning can bring about such behavior in human children, I guess they just need to go to a facility like Lafayette Clinic and observe the children that are the results of "tests" by disturbed parents that prove the theory. I guess this probably means both myself and those kids are as dead as the theory? Someone needs to tell them that they aren't what they are and are just a dead theory, because if that would cure them of their self destructive behaviors it would be worth it. I have a Weimeraner who reminds me very much of these children. He would rather be beaten than ignored and will go to great extremes to get negative attention if he is not receiving positive attention. Therefore, correction or punishment of any kind is totally ineffective with him (as it was for the children mentioned above). The only "punishment" is to be ignored (children at Lafayette were punished by being put into an empty padded room for short periods). This dog came to me from Weim rescue as a last ditch effort to save his life, and he has made some small improvement over the past four years. His background is unknown. Any of us who have experience with dogs are familiar with the phenomenon of dogs who lick or chew themselves to the point of real injury. I personally have seen dogs lick front paws literally to the bone, or chew their tails to bloody stubs. I do have to say, however, that in all cases I have personally witnessed I felt that the cause was anxiety, and not a bid for attention. Also, most of these animals seemed to be depressed. The common denominators in the majority of these cases were confinement, nutritional imbalance, and isolation. My impression of dogs that exhibited the behavior but did not live with the conditions above was that there was a brain chemical imbalance of some kind because there were also several other compulsive behaviors one would consider "abnormal". With an elderly dog like the 12 year old Dane, I would look at brain function first. A nutritional or brain chemical imbalance would surely be one of the physical possibilities for the cause of such behavior? I am not saying that I do not believe it is possible that a dog would engage in such activity as a learned behavior for social reasons, I am simply saying that in the cases I personally witnessed, other factors were obvious and appeared to be more the cause. These dogs were not getting any attention because of the behavior. Most were literally getting no attention at all, with or without the behavior. Again, from mere practical experience and observation, my elderly mother has engaged in certain self-mutilation behaviors under the guise of "grooming". Plucking eyebrows and shaving body hair until the area is a bloody mess, literally skinned. She is surprised when the condition of the areas is pointed out to her and appears to feel no pain from these actions or the aftermath. Since licking and chewing are also grooming behaviors in dogs, I make this point. In my mother's case, there is no dementia but there is oxygen deprivation to the brain due to blocked carotids and heart valves. Also various damage to the brain from stroke. She is now on Zoloft, and this has helped to eliminate the worst of those behaviors. I would think that in an elderly dog, some similar brain deterioration would have occurred and could be a contributing factor to the behavior. It would be very interesting to hear what the academics have to say about this, especially about what might be known concerning possible nutritional or brain chemical imbalances that may contribute to these behaviors. Kathy Hughes From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" 3-JUN-1998 01:58:29.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Self trauma -REPONSE Hi list, I have suffered from tinnitis for 41 years. When it first afflicted me I went to one of the leading specialists in in the northwest US, since lack of sleep was becoming a serious problem. He advised me to quit my career, which involved wearing a headset on a TV production line, listening to screaming TV directors and technical people while trying to make coherent [sp] on-air announcements. He explained that my condition was akin to _boilermaker's ear_ and shell shock on war veterans. The technical explanations were logical were perfectly logical. I got out of the business and the ringing in my ears continued. The only way I could get rid of it and get some sleep was to mask it by turning on the radio at bedtime and getting bored to sleep. It wasn't until 20 years later that I read of some clever investigator who decided to get _scientific_ about tinnitis. He dropped a tiny michrophone into the ear of many tinnitis sufferers and discovered--- The mike's actually picked up the ringing in the patient's ears. Eureka! There were two type of tinnitis, objective and subjective. It seems to me that a dog [let's call it a female] who licks or chews her paw excessively might well be doing so because there is something that she experiences subjectively. If we are to treat the patient seriously, we are obliged to develop a differential diagnosis. To do otherwise might be deemed unethical. This requires more than a cursory report from the dog's owner about the overt behavior, but a complete medical and behavioral/environmental history. Once this has been gathered, remedial steps can be devised that will lead to alleviation of the stressors [back to Selyes' original meaning of the word] that have sustained the behavior. In other words... let's get to the etiology and thereby deal with the behavior. If the history reveals that the dog was merely engaging in normal grooming behavior after a walk in a moldy or fungus ridden woods, and the owners reinforced the behavior by paying sympathetic attention to her, so be it. Find out why their attention had such a potent reinforcing impact on the behavior, and deal with that. On the other hand, if the paw is the subject of some biological irritation, Xrays, tissue samples, etc., must be part of the differential diagnosis. On the other, other hand, if the dog may have some spinal anomoly and a numbness or tingling is stimlulating the licking/chewing, rule that out. Etc, etc. etc. As a non-veterinarian, self-educated student of dog behavior problems with tinnitis, who has yet to be properly diagnosed, I must agree with the concerns Jeff and Janice. But, at the same time, I sympathize with D.B Cameron, who may have tried to deal with a quick problem presentation with a quick explanation. Lord knows, I remember Tinbergen's photo on the front page of the National Enquirer, biting a puppy's ear to punish it, saying, in effect, I think this list is now getting to the salient point regarding the human/animal inter-relationship milleiu---it is a multi-disciplinary subject and needs cooperative, non-confrontational input from every field of endeavor. My only question is, does the ethology of _domestic pet animals_ belong in ISEA? If it does, I'd love to hang in there and keep exchanging ideas, because ther are some brilliant minds out there. And I ought to know... the ringing in my ears tells me so. Bill Campbell I also am concerned at the readiness of canine behaviourists to propose conditioning explanations of all sorts of behaviour problems (and basically to blame the owners). Surely one possibility is that the wound is itchy or still hurts. This could be tested using local anaesthetics. Shouldn't these obvious explanations be eliminated before we start trying to cook up complex conditioning explanations. Explantions of behaviour that rely almost entirely on "conditioning" are long dead in most areas of behavioural science, but they seem to be alive and well in canine ethology. Are they ever actually tested out? Is there any actual evidence that an animal can be made to perform self-injurious behaviour through rewards, especially "social" rewards from people? I have heard behaviourists propose such conditioning explanations for all kinds of weird behaviours. Is social reinforcement really that strong? Or are we practicing self-delusion, believing that since pets have a strong emotional impact on our lives, that we are an equally important factor in the lives of pets? Blaming owners for their pets problems reminds me of the bad old days in psychiatry when parents were blamed for their kids mental illness. Is this science or psuedo-science? Jeff Rushen In response to:> The fundamental answer is that the patient finds success through >licking the paw. This could possibly be through the release of >endorphins, or other internal physiological sequences, but it is >almost certainly associated with large amounts of attention from >the dog's owners, >>> Janice Willard 02/06/ 00h25 >>> I am a little bit concerned with this analysis. I think that attention getting behavior is one possible rule-out here, but I wouldn't like, at this point, to have that as the only possibility. >>>> I From: IN%"mlos@ciudad.com.ar" "Mario Lopez Oliva" 3-JUN-1998 05:04:03.62 To: IN%"aave@fvet.uba.ar" CC: IN%"Equine_Veterinary_Clinic@compuserve.com" "Equine_Veterinary_Clinic", IN%"staff@equine-research-inc.com" "Equine research inc Cheryl Hofmann", IN%"ecn@listproc.wsu.edu", IN%"mnrod@cs.com.uy" "Dra. Maria Noel", IN%"kerberlab@xpnet.com.br" "Dra. C Subj: RV: Conferencias Agosto 98 >XVII Conferencias C.I.V.E. >6 y 7 de agosto en la Facultad de Ciencias Veterinarias de la U. del >Nordeste >Organiza: Asociación Argentina de Veterinaria Equina >Auspicia: Facultad de Ciencias Veterinarias, Universidad Nacional del >Nordeste > >Temas y Disertantes: >Dra. María Masri (México): Neurología Equina >Dra. María Noel Rodriguez (Uruguay): Importancia del Monitoreo del Caballo >Atleta >Dr. Felipe Wouk (Brasil): Oftamología y Cirugía del Torax en el Equino >Dr. Carlos Lightowler (Argentina): Actualización en Diagnóstico >Ecocardiográfico en Equinos >Dr. Alberto Mosca (Argentina): Diagnóstico por Imágenes >Aranceles: >Profesionales: $ 40 >Profesionales Socios A.A.V.E y Docentes: $ 30 >Estudiantes: $ 10 > >Día 7 por la noche Fiesta "Día del Veterinario" >Día 8 Concurso de Pesca en el Paraná > Para mayor información comunicarse con la Asociación Argentina de >Veterinaria Equina de 16 a 20 hs. los días lunes,miercoles,jueves y Viernes >al 383-8760 (telefax) o 381-7415 > > >Susana M. Roldan >a/c Secretaria >A.A.V.E. >socmedvetar@ciudad.com.ar > From: IN%"mayersm@numbat.murdoch.edu.au" 3-JUN-1998 18:15:27.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: thankyou Margret Margret Wulbers-Mindermann, Iam sorry that I am writing to you through the group discussion rather than your personal address but I have lost it. I would like to thank you for going to all the trouble to send me your study. I recieved it today and I am looking forward to reading it and I am sure it will provide me with a lot of information. thankyou, michelle Michelle Mayers (honours student) Division of Veterinary and Biomedical Sciences, Murdoch University. W.A. 6150 AUSTRALIA From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 4-JUN-1998 00:55:11.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Light Emitting Fish Dear All, Are there any light emitting fish that are kept in Aquaria? I imagine there are extreme problems with pressure for many of the more 'exotic' varieties. My daughter, Caroline, is working on a design project for her Computer Graphics course which is based on an 'Aquarium'. Only virtual fish are involved :-) Profuse thanks offered afterwards. Robin From: IN%"Hans_Spoolder@adas.co.uk" 4-JUN-1998 07:49:24.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Post-doc Research Vacancy This mail message, and any attachments, has been checked for Viruses by ADAS before dispatch to the Internet. Form: Memo Text: (31 lines follow) PIG BEHAVIOUR RESEARCHER ADAS Terrington, a leading centre for pig research, is seeking to appoint a= n =0D experienced researcher to lead its welfare research programme. ADAS Terrington is located near King=92s Lynn in Norfolk in the UK and has = a =0D 300 sow unit with excellent research facilities. Applicants should preferably have post-doctorate experience in research, =0D specialising in pig behaviour. The successful candidate will lead the pig = =0D welfare research group, manage experiments involving the study of pig =0D behaviour, develop research proposals and write scientific papers. Good communication skills are vital and a current driving licence is =0D necessary. =20 Salary will depend on experience and qualifications. The appointment will = =0D be on permanent terms. For further information and an application form,=20 please contact Mrs Sarah Eastwood,=20 ADAS Terrington, Terrington St Clement, King=92s Lynn, Norfolk, PE34 4PW, UK =20 Tel: + 44 (0)1553 828621. E-mail: Sarah_Eastwood@adas.co.uk Closing Date for Completed Applications: 25 June 1998 ADAS is an equal opportunities employer. Use Proportional Font: true From: IN%"naoabe@agr.tamagawa.ac.jp" "Naoshige.ABE" 4-JUN-1998 19:32:40.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Does anybody know the address of Dr. Herrmann Hopter ? Please inform me? Thank you -- **************************************************************** * Naoshige ABE (( )) * * Experimental Livestockfarm (( )) * * Faculty of Agriculture ///----------/// * * Tamagawa University ///| |/// * * Machida Tokyo 194-8610 JAPAN |@ @| * * E-Mail naoabe@agr.tamagawa.ac.jp | | * * Phone +81 427 39 8296 | | * * Facsimile +81 427 39 8854 EE * **************************************************************** From: IN%"naoabe@agr.tamagawa.ac.jp" "Naoshige.ABE" 4-JUN-1998 19:39:33.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Address Research Does anyboby know the mail address of Dr.Hermann Hopter ? Please inform me ! Thank you -- **************************************************************** * Naoshige ABE (( )) * * Experimental Livestockfarm (( )) * * Faculty of Agriculture ///----------/// * * Tamagawa University ///| |/// * * Machida Tokyo 194-8610 JAPAN |@ @| * * E-Mail naoabe@agr.tamagawa.ac.jp | | * * Phone +81 427 39 8296 | | * * Facsimile +81 427 39 8854 EE * **************************************************************** From: IN%"D.Goodwin@soton.ac.uk" "debbie goodwin" 5-JUN-1998 07:17:03.13 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: PhD Studentship: Object play in Domestic and Non-Domestic Equids. Applications are invited for the following PhD Studentship at The Anthrozoology Institute, University of Southampton, UK. Applicants must have a first or upper second class honours degree in Zoology or appropriate biological science. They must also have practical experience of handling horses and a full, clean driving licence. PhD Studentship: Object play in Domestic and Non-Domestic Equids. Object play in many carnivore species is thought to be closely linked to predation in its causation, ontogeny, evolution and function. Why object play occurs in herbivorous prey species is less clear. This project aims to explore the external and internal stimuli associated with the performance of object play in adult and juvenile equids maintained under a variety of management systems. The effects of evolution and domestication on play behaviour will be investigated by comparing domestic and non-domestic equids. The project will be jointly supervised by Dr. Deborah Goodwin and Dr. John Bradshaw at the Anthrozoology Institute, University of Southampton. Postgraduate admission forms can be obtained from the Divisional Secretary: Mrs Enid Scappaticci, Biodiversity and Ecology, University of Southampton, Bassett Crescent East, Southampton, SO16 7PX email: E.M.Scappaticci@soton.ac.uk or fax (0)-1703-594269. Admission forms should be returned along with a covering letter stating why you are interested in this project, plus a copy of your CV including details of your experience with horses and any work involving contact with the public. Further information about the Anthrozoology Institute and its current equine research projects can be found via our website, http://www.soton.ac.uk/~azi/azi.htm From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 5-JUN-1998 08:53:34.04 To: IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker", IN%"d.evans@lse.ac.uk" "Dylan Evans", IN%"robinson@music-weaver.d CC: Subj: Values and Fitness Many of you commented about an earlier draft and provoked thought and revision. The following will likely be in the coursebook for "Healing th= e Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution." Comments welcome. Jim Brody --------------------- Dangerous Ideas You will meet 3 rejections from other people (aside from those you may ge= t from your neighbors at the corner church) ... that evolution is strictly about killing, that genetic determinism is wrong and evil, and that some ideas are too dangerous for the populace unless carefully monitored. The 2nd Law vs. Reciprocity There are functional parallels between the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and common stereotypes of evolution. Both, simply, are about death, about succumbing to oblivion whether imposed by many small events over a long time, by "internal clocks," or by a sharp blade. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics describes the crawl that all of us make to entropy. We creep to its muted drum roll because all matter does so. Energy is forever lost in any transaction and breakdown -- whether from fungi and worms or from energy loss -- occurs. = We walk up a Down escalator when we travel the opposite direction in orde= r to maintain a given level of organization. Continuity through time requires beating the 2nd Law in order to restore loss, fix damage, or increase resilience to varying settings. Cooperation (nurturance, altruism, and mating) is one tool for achieving that continuity in organisms. It is my point of view that "cooperation" can be applied to molecular attractions as well as those of dating teenagers. "Competition" is the obverse, when an existing form resists assimilation into another one. (A= nd it's likely that a phase transition exists between the two, a narrow zone= -- a very narrow zone in the case of humans -- of physical and temporal proximity, wherein neither cooperation nor competition occur, where neutrality exists.) Morality is one more instance of principles that also act between nonlivi= ng units. It -- whether Darwinian, Neodarwinian, or otherwise -- influences= the expression of self interest, cooperation, and eventual reproduction between organisms. Both cooperation and self-interest are needed for continuity through time. Entities that cannot form alliances will not travel long, likewise, creatures that do not assert their own boundaries will be rapidly taken over. = The outcome is that "nature" is not immoral or amoral. The features that= we call "moral" in ourselves have the same functions and outcomes for us that other rules -- chemical or physical -- provide for nonliving forms. = Furthermore, it is not the case that entities existed and rules came to b= e in order to maintain a particular organization. Rather, the organization= is possible only because it is able to incorporate the rules. = Organizations that do not incorporate them have a very transient existenc= e. Cooperation and competition are interwoven with each other. A nursing kitten is a fluff of self-interest. The mother cat will pull one aside f= or a private feeding session (perhaps motivated by self-interest, to silence= a complainer) but the effect is one of nurturance. Cats have claws that ma= ke the kitten possible. Just as a crystal of salt is a lattice of sodium a= nd chlorine. Darwin was puzzled by the "fact" of altruism, it seemed inconsistent with= notions of "survival of the fittest," a phrase given to him by others and= very late in the game. Huxley and Darwin both viewed human morality as = an apparent contradiction to other principles of competition between individuals. Emotions clearly had animal equivalents; still, at the lev= el of morality, humans were felt to be unique and obligated to overcome thei= r origins. The Neodarwinians (Haldane, Williams, Hamilton, and Trivers) used "genes"= as the selfish device that benefited from our being altruistic. A gene that "codes for" altruism may sacrifice one of its carriers so that 10 other carriers survive. A lineman crashes himself to make a hole for the= quarterback because symbolically, the "team" carries the ball. Everyone benefits from sacrificing one or six players. Given the evident complimentary roles of altruism and selfishness, why th= e differential concerns -- whether from Darwin or from many others -- about= nastiness? Tennyson, who wrote the "... nature red in tooth and claw" li= ne cannot take all the blame. We need to ask a Skinnerian to understand wh= y Kropotkin was ignored. Sidman Avoidance Murray Sidman designed a reinforcement schedule on which there are no ove= rt warnings for an impending shock. Instead, shocks occur every 5 or 10 seconds if there is no response; a response delays the next shock for 20 = or 30 seconds. It is logically possible to avoid all shock by hitting the key every 19 seconds.(1) Still, lab rats often receive 10-20 shocks every 30-60 minutes and in eve= ry session that they perform. Rhesus monkeys get 3; some rhesus get only 3= in a lifetime. Avoidance behavior, particularly when there is no extern= al signal, blossomed in primates. Barkley (1977) and Bronowski (1977) like= ly would see this as an example of "sensing the future" because a successful= response tactic relies on internalized cues about the passage of time. T= he local newspaper is not even aware of Sidman or the rhesus but uses the phenomenon to sell papers; the television station follows monkey wisdom, "If it bleeds, it leads." (And, if it doesn't lead, then make it bleed!)= = Threats are on the top of the front page; good news is hidden inside or i= s listed in the sale papers. Thus, there should be no great surprise about either popular and scientif= ic preoccupation with the seamier parts of nature. Huxley once remarked to Darwin, "The indecency of the process is to a certain extent in favour of= its probability" (Wright, p. 172). The operative psychological adaptations are likely the same, whether processing gossip about Liz, Leo= , or Bill or attending to the spread of a germ in Africa on in a shipment o= f hamburger. The aspects of evolutionary theory that have impact are the same ones we see on the cover of the National Enquirer. Nature made nearly all of us to be great worriers about sex and aggression. You need= to be detached and a bit skeptical to notice the crystalline lattice of altruism that permeates self-interest. Genetic Determinism "Determinism" annoys most of us. Ironically, the more "determined" we are, the more likely it is that we will object to the phrase. Proud, domineering, argumentive types -- whether academic, theologian, or construction engineer -- don't care for limits, whether from doctors or from nature. They are also suspicious that the details of their "free will" are being specified, the substrates identified, and that some of us= vary in the amount of free will that we exercise effectively. I'm a "genetic determinist," probably always have been. No other point = of view makes sense to me. I'm also a "gravitic determinist," and probably= always have been. Gravity tells me what to do. It's universal (I've been told), impartial, and never takes a day off. Yet, none of us -- a reflection of our modules? -- complain about gravity's impeding our free will. We respect it, we protect ourselves and our children from it. We= also defy and break free from it when we hang glide or bungee jump. = Engineers and inventors discovered how to work with gravity but in alliances with other forces such as wind and lift. Thus, we fly. = Despite gravity's power, we launch rockets and depend on gravity to pull them to their destinations, saving massive quantities of fuel while spreading us, our technology, and perhaps our genes beyond this solar system. I'm as optimistic and respectful about genes as I am about gravity. (2) Ideas Too Dangerous: Socrates and Lorenz It's been remarked that genetic determinism underlay difficult eras in American and European history. Konrad Lorenz in particular has been identified as producing ideas that contributed to the Third Reich's extermination campaigns. "Eugenics" affected medical thinking in Americ= a in the early part of this century (Sarason and Doris, 1969). We can bla= me Galton, the ideas, or our application of them. In any event, altruism balanced perceived self-interest; the grandiose types who attempted force= d extermination were defeated not by the ideas but by the altruists who didn't care for the ideas. If evolution were only a tooth-and-claw process, there would have been no reversal. My suggestion is that "us/them chips" (Krebs and Denton, 1997, discussed later in "Universal Goods") are a larger problem than ideas from genetics= =2E = Bloom (1995), for example, describes systematic extermination movements = by the many, many peoples ... none of whom knew about or believed in genetics.(3) Curiously, I didn't recognize ideas similar to both Lorenz= and to those of "psychological adaptations." I was accepted in 1960 into the Centennial Scholars Program at the University of Denver. We spent more than a little time on the Greeks; = Socrates was and still is, a hero in our culture. Later, I was part of = a different group of students that visited I. F. Stone in his home for 4 hours in July 1964. (4) "Izzy" Stone wrote his own weekly newsletter and spent a fair amount of time under government investigation because he published secret information. Stone had no leaks; he read 20 newspapers= each day and pieced likely tales from a wide range of data. Like anyone with good cheater detectors, he sometimes hit target and was reinforced b= y governmental howls. Stone's The Trial of Socrates came to my hands nearly a quarter-centry later, in November 1988. Stone had done his Pentagon Number again. He learned ancient Greek at age 70, checked original sources for 10 years, a= nd published his greatest expose. Socrates did not believe in democracy. He believed that power belonged only to those with "knowledge" and that such could not be taught. By no= means was every individual born with it. His students twice (411 b.c. and 404 b.c.) over threw the Athenian democracy, executing many in the process. Some of his strongest fans we= re Spartans. His students made a third attempt that failed (401 b.c.) and resulted in Socrates' trial. Socrates taunted the jury; he refused to plead for a lesser penalty. Su= ch would have entailed admission that the egalitarians were correct. The majority voting for execution was substantially greater than the majority= that voted for conviction. (5) Grandiose, manic Socrates used the justi= ce system to commit suicide and became our hero for sticking to his elitist convictions ... that only a few have the knowledge to rule and perhaps th= at only a few are qualified to ration and manage knowledge. What's It All About? First, the "tooth and claw" headlines about Darwinian thinking are more a= reflection of our psychological adaptations than inherent to a theory of evolution. Even though Darwin's crowd might have fixated on blood, their= so doing was not an outcome of the theory's demands but of their own evolved mechanisms. This effect was likely compounded by their audience= s, also fascinated by the hostile aspects of nature. (6) Second, we shouldn't put Lorenz in time out unless we do the same with Socrates. Third, any person who emits large volumes of coherent verbal material wil= l exhibit shifts in content over decades. Retrospective scholarship often= allows interpretations that are convenient to the interpreter who may be led by the same psychological adaptations as writers for the National Enquirer. Fourth, ideas have adaptive value for particular times and places. Meme= s will have any number of sources; primates are collectors, thieves, and assemblers, whether of bright pebbles or of shiny thoughts. = Finally, we should blame the "us/them" chip for man's inhumanity to man (and woman!) as much as "genetic determinism." However, the notions of "self" and "other" seems basic to life and occur in a wide array of functional relationships. I'm not sure how to regulate such a mechanism= or about the long term consequences of doing so. = NOTES: 1) Sidman Avoidance was used (and may still be?) for assessment of vario= us pharmaceuticals. 2) There are few examples of "a gene for ..." that withstand careful thought. Kauffman (1991) offers to phrase "parallel distributed regulato= ry network" which is perhaps more accurate. See the discussion later in "Granddad" and in "Universal Goods" in this manual 3) Murder continues, without a "genetics" banner. For example: "At the moment I'd bet that all of us are accomplices by default, for example, in= the probable death of 300,000 black Christian Sudanese being starved to death by several years of bad weather cond(i)tions and, most important, (by) but a Northern Islamic government intent on wiping out non-believers= so it can establish a country totally under the law of God, shariah" (Howard Bloom, Paleopsych List_serve, 6/5/98). 4) Under the auspices of the Lisle Fellowships, founded by Cy & Edna Baldwin who were with our group that summer in Washington. 5) I've since learned more about grandiosity and mania and can support th= e hypothesis that Socrates qualifies as possibly did Lorenz and Haldane. 6) T.H. Huxley and Wilberforce, Bishop of Oxford, each used the other to draw audiences and to drive himself to greater eloquence. Thus, their publicly hostile relationship had its symbiotic aspects. We remember the= ir bombast but not their cooperative projects, including rescuing the Zoological Society from past bad management. From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 5-JUN-1998 15:01:19.17 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sheep dog calls Sometime ago I read (heard?) some research into the acoustic properties of calls made by sheep dog owners to control their dogs. Sonagrams were used to compare the calls that were used to make the dogs advance or retreat. I have completely forgotten who did the work or where it was published (if it was). Can anyone help me? Jeff Rushen ***************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108E, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada. J1M 1Z3 Ph: 1-(819)-5659174 ext 206 Fax: 1-(819)-5645507 Email: RUSHENJ@EM.AGR.CA ***************************************** From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 5-JUN-1998 15:30:11.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Self trauma -REPONSE DBC and Jeff athe clinical experience of often severe behavioral problems is based on observation and treatment success. I remember a case of a dog that scratched itself incessantly only in the owner's presence (the owner kept consoling and petting the dog whenever it scratched, i.e. almost all the time). At Guelph we had a horse with frequent "colic" htat resolved as soon as the caretakers showed no more concern (of course, taht horse had been worked up thoroughly medically). Cases of dogs that are lame only in the presence of the owners are well known. I don't know about a case where self-mutilative behavior may have been purely conditioned, but it certainly is an obvious aggravating factor in many cases. With regard to the presented case, however, I would caution to consider the behavior to be conditioned, without careful differential diagnosis. Aside from medical causes, licking could also be a acute conflict behavior (in this case it would only be shown in an identfiable situation in which the dog is in conflict) or a compulsive disorder. There is ample (scientific) literature on compulsive disorder in companion animals, and any veterinary behavior text contains information on the topic. Andrew Luescher At 12:13 AM 6/3/98 -0400, you wrote: > >195 >Message #195 (196 is last): >Date: Tue Jun 2 10:14:11 1998 >From: rushenj@EM.AGR.CA (Jeff Rushen >Subject: Re: Self trauma -REPONSE >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > >>I also am concerned at the readiness of canine >>behaviourists to propose conditioning explanations of all >>sorts of behaviour problems (and basically to blame the >>owners). Surely one possibility is that the wound is itchy or >>still hurts. This could be tested using local anaesthetics. >>Shouldn't these obvious explanations be eliminated before >>we start trying to cook up complex conditioning >>explanations. > > > Of course you are correct. I have already apologized for >being less than technically letter perfect in my answer to >the original question. Adding a simple, "Assuming all >medical reasons for this licking have been excluded, . . ." >would have been so simple and saved me a lot of explanation. >To say that such a procedure is a routine part of my protocol >is both factual and a bit late. > > > >>Explanations of behaviour that rely almost >>entirely on "conditioning" are long dead in most areas of >>behavioral science, > > > That is really too bad for "most areas of behavioral >science". The act of pronouncing something real and alive as >"dead" does not change reality. That the continents fit together >was once considered a dead end concept. Plate tectonics has >brought it back to vigorous life. > > > >>but they seem to be alive and well in >>canine ethology. > > > We live there. The concept works for us. > > >>Are they ever actually tested out? > > > I wish I could offer specifics. Perhaps some of the >academics in the field can help out here. > > >>Is there >>any actual evidence that an animal can be made to perform >>self-injurious behaviour through rewards, especially "social" >>rewards from people? > > > Dogs that are predisposed by genetics to chase their >tails have been known to chew them very severely (often >leading to amputation) through the "magic" of learned behavior. > > >>I have heard behaviourists propose >>such conditioning explanations for all kinds of weird >>behaviours. Is social reinforcement really that strong? > > > Social reinforcement in dogs is as strong or >stronger than food rewards. Dogs and even cats can easily >be taught to work hard for a conditioned reinforcer; a >whistle, a "clicker", etc. And this is certainly not >limited to these species. How do you think they get >orcas to do back flips in pools? Alternatively, go to >any grocery store in this country on a Saturday and watch >mothers reinforce behaviors of their children. The effective >mothers do it effectively and reinforce desired behavior. >The less effective mothers quite reliably reinforce (through >yelling, spanking, etc.) exactly the behavior that they do not want. >Effective reinforcing of self-destructive behavior in any species >would seem well within the confines of this paradigm. > > >>Or are >>we practicing self-delusion, believing that since pets have a >>strong emotional impact on our lives, that we are an equally >>important factor in the lives of pets? > > > You have it completely wrong. The conventional wisdom >that dogs want to please us is ridiculous. There is absolutely >no evidence or even suspicion that this is the case. However, >like the rest of mammalian species, dogs work for success. The >trick to understanding this is to understand what THE SUBJECT >(the dog) perceives as success. That is, it is intuitive that >yelling, even spanking, should be perceived by the subject as >an indication of failure. The fact is that ANY ATTENTION is >reliably perceived by the subject as preferable to ignoring. >That is, the ineffective correction (yelling, hitting) is >perceived by the subject as a successful outcome of his >behavior. > Thus, positive social attention is a powerful force, and >negative social attention is nearly as powerful. > I am certainly not breaking new ground here as these >concepts are well known and actively used in both human and >animal behavior therapy. The only reason I present them here >is that this power seems to be severely questioned. > > >>Blaming owners for their >>pets problems reminds me of the bad old days in psychiatry >>when parents were blamed for their kids mental illness. > > > We are not dealing with mental illness here (an exceedingly >rare canine event). We are dealing with BEHAVIOR, often quite >normal behavior. > > >>Is this science or psuedo-science? > > > I will let this one alone as I do not wish to deal with >what seems to be a crude, ignorant insult to a well accepted >profession. > > > >>Jeff Rushen > > > >>In response to:> The fundamental answer is that the >>patient finds success through >licking the paw. This could >>possibly be through the release of >endorphins, or other >>internal physiological sequences, but it is >almost certainly >>associated with large amounts of attention from >>the dog's owners, > > > > >-- > ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 > > From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 6-JUN-1998 01:01:37.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Self trauma -REPONSE Dear Applied-Ethology List Members: The several recent posts generated by Dr. Cameron's recommendations regarding the management of excessive licking and auto-mutilation have been very interesting. However, one area of special concern raised by several respondents deserves additional analysis, viz. the role of "attention-getting" in the maintenance of compulsive habits. Simply stated, the operative hypothesis assumes that some compulsive disorders are reinforced and maintained by social attention (both negative and positive) obtained by performing some perseverating sequence, e.g., repeatedly licking. There appears to be some LIMITED justification for this general belief, although it is probably not very relevant to the development of "true" compulsions. For example, many "whirlers" can be prompted to chase their tail by waving a finger in a circular movement above their heads. The signal readily evokes a whirling response in the willing dog, which may be subsequently reinforced by social approval and praise. One might conclude that in some cases whirling is a learned response that the owner has deliberately prompted and rewarded in the past with attention. However, can one fairly view such whirling activity as a motoric "compulsion" simply because it is topographically similar to a legitimate compulsive disorder? Whirling (as described above) is more like a trick or trained behavior--something quite different from the compulsive whirling exhibited by affected bull terriers, for example. I don't know of any definitive case in which compulsive licking (or whirling) has been arbitrarily conditioned by social rewards. Over the years some rather bizarre habits and disorders have been identified as being under the presumptive control of an attention-getting motivation. A leading proponent of this view is B. L. Hart (1980). Hart has proposed an attention-getting cause underlying a broad spectrum of compulsive behaviors and psychosomatic conditions: "Attention-getting behavior almost defies categorization. The behavior may appear as a major disorder such as lameness, paralysis of the rear legs, shadow chasing or hunting for imaginary objects. The behavior may involve autonomic response such as diarrhea, vomiting or asthmalike reactions. Mutilation of a leg or tail, or seizurelike disorders, may also be attention-getting (1980:99)." This position has many obvious difficulties. If attention-getting is a strong social reward, capable of conditioning and sustaining compulsive habits that resist even severe punishment, one might expect that compulsive behavior would be far more common among dogs than it actually is. In fact, compulsive behavior disorders are comparatively uncommon among dogs. One might also expect to find a considerable variety of compulsive habits, but, again, the types of compulsive disorder among dogs are limited to a small number of relatively stereotypic forms. Further, if a robust causal connection really existed between excessive licking, whirling, etc., and attention-getting one should expect that they would be easy to condition and extinguish by the differential presentation and withdrawal of social attention. To my knowledge, no one has demonstrated that a "true" canine compulsion can be established by social reinforcement or, conversely, extinguished by omitting it. The truth is that no therapeutic approach based on the management of attention-getting has been demonstrated (proven) effective for the control of compulsive licking or for any other canine compulsive disorder. If we assume for the sake of argument that attention-getting might control some compulsive habits, how can we be sure that a particular compulsive behavior is actually influenced by attention-getting and not some other concurrent cause in the situation. Hart and Hart (1985) advise that such determinantions are best accomplished by observing the dog while he is in contact with the owner and then again in social isolation. If the dog habitually displays the habit only when in the presence of people, it is presumed that the behavior is motivated by some attention-getting interest. Although attention-getting may be a motivational factor, the isolation test is far from conclusive and proves nothing with respect to role of "attention-getting." For example, the dog may simply feel anxious or suffer some other unidentified distress while in the owner1s presence that causes him to lick, whirl, suck, or whatever. Rather than seeking the owner1s attention such a dog might simply be aroused with an APPEARANCE of a need for attention, perhaps stemming from a general nervous arousal produced by being in close proximity with the owner. Also, dogs placed in isolation may not be so much affected by the loss of attention as they are by the elimination of environmental and emotional stimuli that trigger compulsive activity. Additionally, many dogs become either depressed or excited when in isolation, thus confounding the proposed interpretation of the effects of isolation on compulsive behavior. While attention-getting may play some role in the precipitation and maintenance of compulsive excesses, no scientific evidence based on experimentally derived data supports the notion. At best, "attention-getting" is a hypothesis that awaits falsification. In my opinion, it may be more profitable to analyze and interpret attenting-getting as an adjunctive behavioral excess (see Falk, 1981) that facilitates or potentiates certain compulsive habits rather than viewing it as a reward-outcome maintaining the compulsion. That is, attention-getting may occur comorbidly with and, perhaps, facilitate a variety of compulsive disorders that present during close social contact and excitement, but not necessarily as a social reinforcer supporting the instrumental acquisition and maintenance of compulsive behavior. References Falk JL (1981). The environmental generation of excessive behavior. In S J Mule (Ed) Behavior in Excess: An Examination of the Volitional Disorders. New York: The Free Press. Hart, B L (1980). Attention-getting behavior. In BL Hart (Ed) Canine Behavior (A Practitioner Monograph). Santa Barbara, CA: Veterinary Practice Publishing Company. Hart BL, Hart L A (1985). Canine and Feline Behavioral Therapy. Philadelphia, PA: Lea and Febiger. ********** Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services 12 W. Willow Grove Ave., #188 Philadelphia, PA PH (215) 248-0808 E-MAIL slindsay@ix,netcom.com "Good training is disciplined play." --H. Hediger, The Psychology and Behaviour of Animals in Zooz and Circuses ********** From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 6-JUN-1998 10:40:18.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology-error" CC: Subj: RE: sheep dog calls Jeff: Patricia McConnell (Wisconsin) is the person that did this work. What is the status of the review of the manuscripts submitted on domestication? Hope all is well. I won't make the meeting in France. I have six meetings to go to this summer, two of which are immediately before and after the meeting in France, with some overlap. Ed ---------- >From: applied-ethology-error >To: applied-ethology >Subject: sheep dog calls >Date: Friday, June 05, 1998 5:01PM > >Sometime ago I read (heard?) some research into the >acoustic properties of calls made by sheep dog owners to >control their dogs. Sonagrams were used to compare the >calls that were used to make the dogs advance or retreat. I >have completely forgotten who did the work or where it was >published (if it was). Can anyone help me? > >Jeff Rushen >***************************************** >Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. >Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, >Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, >PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108E, >Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada. J1M 1Z3 >Ph: 1-(819)-5659174 ext 206 >Fax: 1-(819)-5645507 >Email: RUSHENJ@EM.AGR.CA >***************************************** > From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 6-JUN-1998 14:51:11.13 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Self trauma -REPONSE Reply to message from slindsay@ix.netcom.com of Sat, 06 Jun > >Dear Applied-Ethology List Members: > >The several recent posts generated by Dr. Cameron's recommendations >regarding the management of excessive licking and auto-mutilation have >been very interesting. However, one area of special concern raised by >several respondents deserves additional analysis, viz. the role of >"attention-getting" in the maintenance of compulsive habits. Simply >stated, the operative hypothesis assumes that some compulsive disorders >are reinforced and maintained by social attention (both negative and >positive) obtained by performing some perseverating sequence, e.g., >repeatedly licking. > >There appears to be some LIMITED justification for this general belief, >although it is probably not very relevant to the development of "true" >compulsions. For example, many "whirlers" can be prompted to chase >their tail by waving a finger in a circular movement above their heads. >The signal readily evokes a whirling response in the willing dog, which >may be subsequently reinforced by social approval and praise. One might >conclude that in some cases whirling is a learned response that the >owner has deliberately prompted and rewarded in the past with attention. >However, can one fairly view such whirling activity as a motoric >"compulsion" simply because it is topographically similar to a >legitimate compulsive disorder? Whirling (as described above) is more >like a trick or trained behavior--something quite different from the >compulsive whirling exhibited by affected bull terriers, for example. I >don't know of any definitive case in which compulsive licking (or >whirling) has been arbitrarily conditioned by social rewards. A quick skimming of my records allows me to offer your first: "Ozzie" Weimaraner M(c) 7~years 37kg. Has been "fly biting" for 4 years+-. O (Owner) believes that it started when hornets invaded their home and P (patient) chased them and was stung several times. O's showered P with attention at the time and P gradually got worse with the fly biting behavior. Present attention is mostly joking ("Hey Oz, there are no bugs") to distraction and punishment. P has had a full medical work-up by an internist including a cat-scan. All tests were WNL. At the time of the initial visit to my office his fly biting behavior was occuring many times per day and was triggered by any excitement, especially feeding. On examination P's problem was more complex than just the fly biting and included attention-getting behavior, sep. anx., and TX phobia. Treatment included: - 100% ignoring of fly biting symptoms. - NFL (No Free Lunch) program (P to get no benefits (attention, etc.) w/o giving a response to any command first.) - Clomipramine 75mg bid. (O's to start drug only after getting pre-drug tests (CBC, Chem-screen, auscultation) first.) Results: - O's started the Ignoring and NFL program right away and soon the symptoms were, "a lot better". - A week later the drugs were started which lowered the incidence of the fly biting even more; in the range of once a week or so. - A recall 10 months later showed P was still on clomipramine, and was still having mild symptoms ("one or two snaps at a time") 4-5 times per week. Significantly, for a period the symptoms became worse until O's discovered that the babysitter was not doing the ignoring and NFL program. When the baby sitter was corrected, the symptoms settled down to base level again. My interpretation of the above is that the patient has a basic compulsive problem that social conditioning makes worse. > >Over the years some rather bizarre habits and disorders have been >identified as being under the presumptive control of an >attention-getting motivation. A leading proponent of this view is B. L. >Hart (1980). Hart has proposed an attention-getting cause underlying a >broad spectrum of compulsive behaviors and psychosomatic conditions: > >"Attention-getting behavior almost defies categorization. The behavior >may appear as a major disorder such as lameness, paralysis of the rear >legs, shadow chasing or hunting for imaginary objects. The behavior may >involve autonomic response such as diarrhea, vomiting or asthmalike >reactions. Mutilation of a leg or tail, or seizurelike disorders, may >also be attention-getting (1980:99)." > >This position has many obvious difficulties. If attention-getting is a >strong social reward, capable of conditioning and sustaining compulsive >habits that resist even severe punishment, one might expect that >compulsive behavior would be far more common among dogs than it actually >is. Seems to me that we have a semantic problem here. As I understand it, attention-getting behavior is quite different from compusive behavior. The former is quite usually learned behavior and is very common. In my practice AGB is associated with 57% of all of my canine cases. For a behavior practice, this is a relatively hard number, as my diagnotic criteria are rather objective. Furthermore, it is my belief that AGB is even more common in the canine populace that never get to the behaviorist level of diagnosis. (No, I am not board certified, but I don't know what else to call myself. "Specialist" is really a no-no.) My understanding of compulsive behavior is that they are organic problems; relatively rare in incidence. Even so, the symptoms, in my experience are reliably enhanced by social reinforcement, and are very often REDUCED by ignoring and NFL programs. In fact, compulsive behavior disorders are comparatively uncommon >among dogs. One might also expect to find a considerable variety of >compulsive habits, but, again, the types of compulsive disorder among >dogs are limited to a small number of relatively stereotypic forms. >Further, if a robust causal connection really existed between excessive >licking, whirling, etc., and attention-getting one should expect that >they would be easy to condition and extinguish by the differential >presentation and withdrawal of social attention. To my knowledge, no >one has demonstrated that a "true" canine compulsion can be established >by social reinforcement or, conversely, extinguished by omitting it. The >truth is that no therapeutic approach based on the management of >attention-getting has been demonstrated (proven) effective for the >control of compulsive licking or for any other canine compulsive >disorder. > >If we assume for the sake of argument that attention-getting might >control some compulsive habits, how can we be sure that a particular >compulsive behavior is actually influenced by attention-getting and not >some other concurrent cause in the situation. A thorough medical work-up followed by a therapeutic trial of AGB therapy would seem useful. Hart and Hart (1985) >advise that such determinantions are best accomplished by observing the >dog while he is in contact with the owner and then again in social >isolation. If the dog habitually displays the habit only when in the >presence of people, it is presumed that the behavior is motivated by >some attention-getting interest. Although attention-getting may be a >motivational factor, the isolation test is far from conclusive and >proves nothing with respect to role of "attention-getting." For >example, the dog may simply feel anxious or suffer some other >unidentified distress while in the owner1s presence that causes him to >lick, whirl, suck, or whatever. Rather than seeking the owner1s >attention such a dog might simply be aroused with an APPEARANCE of a >need for attention, perhaps stemming from a general nervous arousal >produced by being in close proximity with the owner. Also, dogs placed >in isolation may not be so much affected by the loss of attention as >they are by the elimination of environmental and emotional stimuli that >trigger compulsive activity. Additionally, many dogs become either >depressed or excited when in isolation, thus confounding the proposed >interpretation of the effects of isolation on compulsive behavior. > >While attention-getting may play some role in the precipitation and >maintenance of compulsive excesses, no scientific evidence based on >experimentally derived data supports the notion. At best, >"attention-getting" is a hypothesis that awaits falsification. "Falsification"? Is this what might be called a Freudian Slip? In my >opinion, it may be more profitable to analyze and interpret >attenting-getting as an adjunctive behavioral excess (see Falk, 1981) >that facilitates or potentiates certain compulsive habits rather than >viewing it as a reward-outcome maintaining the compulsion. That is, >attention-getting may occur comorbidly with and, perhaps, facilitate a >variety of compulsive disorders that present during close social contact >and excitement, but not necessarily as a social reinforcer supporting >the instrumental acquisition and maintenance of compulsive behavior. > >References > >Falk JL (1981). The environmental generation of excessive behavior. In >S J Mule (Ed) Behavior in Excess: An Examination of the Volitional >Disorders. New York: The Free Press. > >Hart, B L (1980). Attention-getting behavior. In BL Hart (Ed) Canine >Behavior (A Practitioner Monograph). Santa Barbara, CA: Veterinary >Practice Publishing Company. > >Hart BL, Hart L A (1985). Canine and Feline Behavioral Therapy. >Philadelphia, PA: Lea and Febiger. > >********** > >Steve Lindsay >Canine Behavioral Services >12 W. Willow Grove Ave., #188 >Philadelphia, PA >PH (215) 248-0808 >E-MAIL slindsay@ix,netcom.com > >"Good training is disciplined play." > >--H. Hediger, >The Psychology and Behaviour of Animals in Zooz and Circuses > >********** > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 7-JUN-1998 01:53:16.20 To: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" "D.B. Cameron, DVM" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Self trauma -REPONSE D.B. Cameron wrote: > Reply to message from slindsay@ix.netcom.com of Sat, 06 Jun (some snipping) > > A quick skimming of my records allows me to offer your first: > "Ozzie" Weimaraner M(c) 7~years 37kg. > Has been "fly biting" for 4 years+-. O (Owner) believes that it started > when hornets invaded their home and P (patient) chased them and was > stung several times. O's showered P with attention at the time and > P gradually got worse with the fly biting behavior. > Present attention is mostly joking ("Hey Oz, there are no bugs") > to distraction and punishment. > P has had a full medical work-up by an internist including a > cat-scan. All tests were WNL. At the time of the initial visit to my > office his fly biting behavior was occuring many times per day and was > triggered by any excitement, especially feeding. > On examination P's problem was more complex than just the fly > biting and included attention-getting behavior, sep. anx., and > TX phobia. > Treatment included: > - 100% ignoring of fly biting symptoms. > - NFL (No Free Lunch) program (P to get no benefits (attention, etc.) > w/o giving a response to any command first.) > - Clomipramine 75mg bid. (O's to start drug only after getting > pre-drug tests (CBC, Chem-screen, auscultation) first.) > Results: > - O's started the Ignoring and NFL program right away and soon > the symptoms were, "a lot better". > - A week later the drugs were started which lowered the incidence > of the fly biting even more; in the range of once a week or so. > - A recall 10 months later showed P was still on clomipramine, > and was still having mild symptoms ("one or two snaps at a time") 4-5 > times per week. Significantly, for a period the symptoms became worse > until O's discovered that the babysitter was not doing the ignoring and > NFL program. When the baby sitter was corrected, the symptoms settled > down to base level again. > My interpretation of the above is that the patient has a basic > compulsive problem that social conditioning makes worse. Thank you for sharing this case study. Although "attention" appears to play some modulatory role in the above dog's behavior, is it necessary (or parsimonious) to believe that the reception of attention is functioning as a social reinforcer maintaining fly snapping. What about other possibilities like social facilitation and, even more to the point, local enhancement effects caused by the attention paid by the owner to flying insects or dressing and handling an injured foot in the case of compulsive licking. > >Over the years some rather bizarre habits and disorders have been > >identified as being under the presumptive control of an > >attention-getting motivation. A leading proponent of this view is B. L. > >Hart (1980). Hart has proposed an attention-getting cause underlying a > >broad spectrum of compulsive behaviors and psychosomatic conditions: > > > >"Attention-getting behavior almost defies categorization. The behavior > >may appear as a major disorder such as lameness, paralysis of the rear > >legs, shadow chasing or hunting for imaginary objects. The behavior may > >involve autonomic response such as diarrhea, vomiting or asthmalike > >reactions. Mutilation of a leg or tail, or seizurelike disorders, may > >also be attention-getting (1980:99)." > > > >This position has many obvious difficulties. If attention-getting is a > >strong social reward, capable of conditioning and sustaining compulsive > >habits that resist even severe punishment, one might expect that > >compulsive behavior would be far more common among dogs than it actually > >is. > > Seems to me that we have a semantic problem here. As I understand > it, attention-getting behavior is quite different from compusive > behavior. The former is quite usually learned behavior and is very > common. In my practice AGB is associated with 57% of all of my > canine cases. For a behavior practice, this is a relatively hard > number, as my diagnotic criteria are rather objective. Furthermore, > it is my belief that AGB is even more common in the canine populace > that never get to the behaviorist level of diagnosis. (No, I am not > board certified, but I don't know what else to call myself. "Specialist" > is really a no-no.) > My understanding of compulsive behavior is that they are organic > problems; relatively rare in incidence. Even so, the symptoms, in my > experience are reliably enhanced by social reinforcement, and are > very often REDUCED by ignoring and NFL programs. On the contrary, a very important reason for not attributing unqualified motivational status to attention-getting as a social reinforcer is the possibility that attention-getting under certain circumstances may present as a adjunctive excess or psychogenic compulsion itself. Attention-getting as such might arguably be socially reinforced by the reception of attention; a formulation that makes considerably more sense than saying that compulsive fly snapping is reinforced by attention-getting. I have not dismissed the possibility that "attention-getting" might serve to potentiate or augment the expression of some compulsive disorders; what I'm questioning here is the assumption that attention-getting serves to augment compulsive behavior through the mechanism of social reinforcement. Attention-getting as a compulsive excess could stem from a social dysfunction or "conflict" between the dog and owner. There are other reasons to interpret "attention-getting" excesses in terms of a compulsive category. For one thing, the motivational characteristics of attention-getting are very different from those associated with other basic drive states like thirst, hunger, etc. that can be readily quieted by the consumption of food or water--unless, of course, the dog's interest in such items is distorted by a "compulsive" appetite. The "consumption" of social attention for the attention-getting dog appears to generate more and more preparatory arousal for additional attention-getting rather than less and less as one would expect from the usual effects of satiation. Unlike the influence of other "motivational" states, the compulsive attention-seeking dog never gets enough attention or contact with the owner. D.B. Cameron wrote: > Reply to message from slindsay@ix.netcom.com of Sat, 06 Jun (some snipping) > > > >While attention-getting may play some role in the precipitation and > >maintenance of compulsive excesses, no scientific evidence based on > >experimentally derived data supports the notion. At best, > >"attention-getting" is a hypothesis that awaits falsification. > > "Falsification"? Is this what might be called a Freudian Slip? My appeal to "falsification" is not a Freudian slip. Actually, I believe that hypotheses such as the one promoted by Hart and yourself regarding the role of attention-getting on the etiology of compulsive disorders should be capable of withstanding experimental scrutiny designed to refute it. From a scientific perspective, it is not sufficient to simply collect individual bits of data to verify ones own beliefs. In order to be validated those beliefs and the data collected to support them must be able to stand the test of rigorous examination and analysis, with the possibility that they might be proven false. This is what I mean by "falsification." Undoubtedly, the dog is often motivated to obtain close contact and comfort from the owner, and such care-giving on our part can be a strong social reinforcer and harmonizing influence upon the social interaction between our two species, but the role of attention-getting (reminds me of other anthropomorphic errors like "spitefulness," "guilt," "stubborness") as a motivational category underlying compulsive disorders can be easily misinterpreted and inappropriately applied to situations not warranting its attribution. If a compulsive habit is believed to be under the control of attention-getting, then simply removing both positve and negative attention should result in its rapid extinction. However, removal of attention rarely results in the reduction of an established compulsive habit, except, of course, in cases where it has been learned as a pseudo-compulsion or "trick" as in the earlier example (see previous post). Frankly, the divers connotations associated with "attention-getting" rings all-too-human (anthropomorphic) to accept at face value without further analysis and limitations attached to the concept. Among dogs there exists different kinds of ordinary (care-seeking) and compulsive attention-getting, fueled by various motivational and functional interests. By now it should be clear that the provision of a clear definition of "attention-getting" would certainly be a high priority for someone wanting to appeal to it as an explanatory cause and to manage it to produce a therapeutic effect. I personally doubt that there exists some generic "attention-getting" motivation (just as I doubt that a dog can behave badly out of spiteful motivations or suffer from a "guilty conscience"). Attention-getting as something (to quote Hart) that "almost defies categorization" is in all probability like other things that defy categorization, it probably does not exist or its existence is not well understood. In conclusion, "attention-getting" as a source of social reinforcement maintaining compulsive habits is probably not very useful as a construct. Perhaps, with additional research a more clear role for "attention-getting" will be developed with respect to compulsive behavior disorders, but for now its role is highly uncertain. Another problematic motivational factor that is frequently implicated in the development of compulsive behavior is boredom. But appeal to boredom--like attention-getting--is overly simplistic and hard to defend on empirical grounds. Obviously, many dogs are exposed to daily and incalculable boredom, but few dogs develop disruptive compulsive outlets. That is, boredom is common, however, compulsive disorders are not common. Further, if boredom were a sufficient cause for the development of compulsive behavior, one would predict that the supplemental provision of various activities, exercise, and playful attention should of themselves reverse or attenuate the observed symptoms. Such an outcome is only rarely observed in dogs. In some situations, (e.g., stables, kennels, zoos) extreme boredom does appear to contribute to compulsive (displacement) disorders and is alleviated by improving the captive animal's quality of life by appropriately altering and enriching the environment. Clearly, some epigenetic constellation of biological predisposition, developmental process/deficit, or experiential influences (learning, traumatic events, etc.) contribute to the etiology of compulsive habits, but I sincerely doubt that attention-getting will turn out to be a very significant factor in the etiology or maintenance of canine compulsive disorders. Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services 12 West Willow Grove Avenue, #188 Philadelphia, PA 19118 PH (215)248-0808 E-Mail: slindsay@dogbehavior.com When a dog runs at you, whistle for him. --Thoreau, Journal, June 26, 1840 From: IN%"zara_bandara@hotmail.com" "Sara Gillispie" 7-JUN-1998 06:54:33.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: jack russel Terrier Hi, I'm a worried dog-owner who has a problem with my Jack Russels natural instinct behavior; He is a hunting dog. During summertime we like having the door open, the kids run in and out and so on. Our dog can not be loose because he then runs away since we do not have a fence around our back yard. We have him loose in the house, of course, and when we have the door open we keep the dog on a leach outside. If there is a missunderstaning or if the kids run out without beeing careful enough thats when the dog runs away. When he runs away and when I call him he hesitates and then keeps on running. We live by the forest and usually that's where he takes his walkes. We have had him for 3 years now and have been to several different obediance courses where he passes with good results. So the problem is that he obays untill his natural hunting instinct takes overhand and then there is no stop. Usually when he runs away he stays in the forest but sometimes he goes and chases cats in the area. He had never caused any damage or hurt anyone when he's on the run untill just a couple of weeks ago, when he was caught in a fight with another loose dog. He has never injured another human being on purpous and he is not violent. In winter time we have him loose when we take walks in the forest and then he will only run away for a short while during the walk but he always obays when you call him back. We have talked to the person who breeds the dogs, and she says that the Jack Russel itself has a very very strong "drive" for hunting. I've been thinkin about taking him to hunting course hoping that if he can exercise his "needs" there then maby he won't be so eager to run away. now in the summertime, and especially after what happened just a few weeks ago, we have to keep him from running away so that he doesn't injure another animal. And also, it is against the law to have your dog loose during this time of the year. we don't want to have to worry every time someone opens a door whether the dog is in or where he is. What we are thinking about is to get one of those electrical collors so that we can trane him to obay when he runs away and we call him. Is there anyone that has or have had experience with a Jack Russel or a simular dog with the same type of problem that has come up with better solution that is less painfull? I would be thankfull for an answer as quickly as possible, sara ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"zara_bandara@hotmail.com" "Sara Gillispie" 7-JUN-1998 06:54:46.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: jack russel Terrier Hi, I'm a worried dog-owner who has a problem with my Jack Russels natural instinct behavior; He is a hunting dog. During summertime we like having the door open, the kids run in and out and so on. Our dog can not be loose because he then runs away since we do not have a fence around our back yard. We have him loose in the house, of course, and when we have the door open we keep the dog on a leach outside. If there is a missunderstaning or if the kids run out without beeing careful enough thats when the dog runs away. When he runs away and when I call him he hesitates and then keeps on running. We live by the forest and usually that's where he takes his walkes. We have had him for 3 years now and have been to several different obediance courses where he passes with good results. So the problem is that he obays untill his natural hunting instinct takes overhand and then there is no stop. Usually when he runs away he stays in the forest but sometimes he goes and chases cats in the area. He had never caused any damage or hurt anyone when he's on the run untill just a couple of weeks ago, when he was caught in a fight with another loose dog. He has never injured another human being on purpous and he is not violent. In winter time we have him loose when we take walks in the forest and then he will only run away for a short while during the walk but he always obays when you call him back. We have talked to the person who breeds the dogs, and she says that the Jack Russel itself has a very very strong "drive" for hunting. I've been thinkin about taking him to hunting course hoping that if he can exercise his "needs" there then maby he won't be so eager to run away. now in the summertime, and especially after what happened just a few weeks ago, we have to keep him from running away so that he doesn't injure another animal. And also, it is against the law to have your dog loose during this time of the year. we don't want to have to worry every time someone opens a door whether the dog is in or where he is. What we are thinking about is to get one of those electrical collors so that we can trane him to obay when he runs away and we call him. Is there anyone that has or have had experience with a Jack Russel or a simular dog with the same type of problem that has come up with better solution that is less painfull? I would be thankfull for an answer as quickly as possible, sara ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"lavleer@hotmail.com" "l.a. leer" 7-JUN-1998 13:30:22.29 To: IN%"zara_bandara@hotmail.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: jack russel Terrier Hey Sarah, Sorry I do not have a solution but advice to be careful. My friend from childhood has bred and raised Jack Russel's her whole life. They do seem to have unusally strong instincts to kill other animals. In all the years she has had them, she has never been able to control that behavior. They lived on a farm and over the years the Jack Russels ate every other animal they tried to have. They attacked and killed several of their cats, all their chickens, hamsters, gerbils, a pet robin, and even eachother! They had a poodle in the family for about 12 years that the Russels were "buddies" with. When the poodle got old they eventually attacked and killed her too. They raised several generations of these Jack Russels and I have not heard anything from her that they have ever been able to stop or control this behavior. Good Luck! If anyone out there has any success in controlling these tendendcies I will pass it on to my friend too! >Hi, >I'm a worried dog-owner who has a problem with my Jack Russels natural >instinct behavior; He is a hunting dog. >During summertime we like having the door open, the kids run in and out >and so on. Our dog can not be loose because he then runs away since we >do not have a fence around our back yard. We have him loose in the >house, of course, and when we have the door open we keep the dog on a >leach outside. >If there is a missunderstaning or if the kids run out without beeing >careful enough thats when the dog runs away. >When he runs away and when I call him he hesitates and then keeps on >running. We live by the forest and usually that's where he takes his >walkes. We have had him for 3 years now and have been to several >different obediance courses where he passes with good results. >So the problem is that he obays untill his natural hunting instinct >takes overhand and then there is no stop. >Usually when he runs away he stays in the forest but sometimes he goes >and chases cats in the area. >He had never caused any damage or hurt anyone when he's on the run >untill just a couple of weeks ago, when he was caught in a fight with >another loose dog. He has never injured another human being on purpous >and he is not violent. >In winter time we have him loose when we take walks in the forest and >then he will only run away for a short while during the walk but he >always obays when you call him back. >We have talked to the person who breeds the dogs, and she says that the >Jack Russel itself has a very very strong "drive" for hunting. >I've been thinkin about taking him to hunting course hoping that if he >can exercise his "needs" there then maby he won't be so eager to run >away. >now in the summertime, and especially after what happened just a few >weeks ago, we have to keep him from running away so that he doesn't >injure another animal. And also, it is against the law to have your dog >loose during this time of the year. >we don't want to have to worry every time someone opens a door whether >the dog is in or where he is. >What we are thinking about is to get one of those electrical collors so >that we can trane him to obay when he runs away and we call him. > >Is there anyone that has or have had experience with a Jack Russel or a >simular dog with the same type of problem that has come up with >better solution that is less painfull? > > I would be thankfull for an answer as quickly as possible, > > sara > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"tzazu@ciudad.com.ar" "Arantza Izurrategui" 7-JUN-1998 19:02:40.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"palazzo@datamarkets.com.ar" Subj: hamsters life expectancy This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_8qmn31R+SI0Ck8KNUMTBvA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello to all,=20 =20 I need to know about hamsters behaviour - life expectancy as a family = pet (can they be alone without getting depression?, do they have to live = with a mate (female or male) in order to live longer?, etc.) Could = anybody please help me about where can I get this information. Thanks a = lot.=20 =20 Tzazu from Argentina. --Boundary_(ID_8qmn31R+SI0Ck8KNUMTBvA) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
    Hello to all, =
   
I need to know about hamsters behaviour - life expectancy as a family pet (can = they be=20 alone without getting depression?, do they have to live with a mate = (female or=20 male) in order to live longer?,  etc.) Could anybody please help me = about=20 where can I get this information.  Thanks a lot.
 
Tzazu from=20 Argentina.
--Boundary_(ID_8qmn31R+SI0Ck8KNUMTBvA)-- From: IN%"Susanne.Waiblinger@vu-wien.ac.at" "Susanne Waiblinger" 8-JUN-1998 01:19:28.19 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sheep dog calls Following reference deals with affect of acoustic structures on animals in general, not only on herding dogs: Patricia B. McConnell (1991): Lessons from animal trainers: The effect of acoustic structure on an animals's reponse. In: Bateson, Klopfer: Perspectives in ethology, Vol. 9, Human Understanding and Animal Awareness. Plenum Press Regards, Susanne > Sometime ago I read (heard?) some research into the > acoustic properties of calls made by sheep dog owners to > control their dogs. Sonagrams were used to compare the > calls that were used to make the dogs advance or retreat. I > have completely forgotten who did the work or where it was > published (if it was). Can anyone help me? > > Jeff Rushen ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dr. Susanne Waiblinger Institute of Animal Husbandry and Animal Welfare University of Veterinary Sciences Vienna Veterinaerplatz 1 1210 Wien Austria Tel. +43 1 250 77 49 05 Fax +43 1 250 77 49 90 Susanne.Waiblinger@vu-wien.ac.at ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: IN%"heltonws@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU" 8-JUN-1998 09:22:28.07 To: IN%"zara_bandara@hotmail.COM" "Sara Gillispie" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: jack russel Terrier Hello Sara, I sent a message to you, but I'm not sure that you got it. I would like to some feedback from the rest of the group as well. I would suggest putting in a fence deep enough so that digging out would not be a problem, and probably one that he can not see through (he can't be tempted by what he can't see, or otherwise sense). In my opinion, any punishment system can back fire on you. Also, I have heard that many dogs can withstand shocks when they are excited. Making the shock collars useless in those situations. Your little terrier might be able to withstand some shocks if his prey drive kicks in. Also, I know a friend of mine uses a shock collar, the problem is that his dog knows when the thing isn't on or when the battery is dead. The dog doesn't listen to him at all under those situations. To be honest I have even been tempted to use one to keep my shepherd from running into the road, but I realized that I was just being lazy, and should leasch up the dog properly before I open the door, and continue to work on obeidence as best I can. But before you waste your money (in my opinion) on an electric collar, I would suggest putting in a fence. Hope it helps, Deak Helton From: IN%"ken@dcm.wustl.edu" 8-JUN-1998 13:39:53.91 To: IN%"compmed@listserv.aalas.org", IN%"VETINFO@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU", IN%"vetcai-l@ksuvm.ksu.edu", IN%"VETLIB-L@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU", IN%"Primate-Talk@primate.wisc.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: MEETING> Electronic Media Conference 98 This is coming up quick, so if you're intending to be here, the time to sign up and get your travel straight is now! (For complete conference info, see http://www.aalas.org/elecmed/) Upcoming NIH - OPRR / AALAS / Washington U. Electronic Media Conference for Biomedical Research on June 18-19, 1998 in St. Louis, Missouri. The conference is being held in the Hyatt Regency at Union Station. Topics include the following: Animal Facility Design and Planning / Robotic cagewashers Animal Alternatives Bibliographic Searches Electronic Grants Administration Telesurgery Veterinary Medical Standards / Informatics "Virtual" Organs - Computer Simulations Clinical and Research Electronic Medical Records Computer Aided Design of Research Facilities World Wide Web IACUC Resources Managing Information in Biomedical Settings Virtual Conference on Infectious Diseases of Animals Applications of Technology in Training Researchers Tours of: Washington University Medical School, St. Louis Zoo, Purina Farms Hotel space is limited, so sign up today. Detailed conference information is available at http://www.aalas.org/elecmed/ or call AALAS at 901-754-8620 to get registered and on your way. -- Ken Boschert, DVM * Washington University Div. of Comparative Medicine * St. Louis, MO * <:3_)~~ From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jonathan Bowen" 8-JUN-1998 14:38:15.89 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: jack russel terrier This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_QcxdF3wf9E+Ok68cfknD7w) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable this problem has not simply to do with behaviour, hunting or otherwise. You can't really expect a dog to stay in your unfenced garden just = because that area is differentiated from other peoples' land by a = property deed! If there is no clear line to cross, the dog is not likely = to understand where you expect him to stay. Ordinary training classes are not likely to help, especially if you = don't practise training regularly in a wide variety of situations (not = just at classes). A shock collar could make your problems much, much worse, and in any = case I feel that the use of any highly punitive method of training such = as this is completely unnecessary (and barbaric) as a first attempt to = control a problem. Imagine how this situation looks to the dog....how is it supposed to = learn from about a previously undelineated perimeter through the = delivery of a few painful and untimely shocks. There have to be better ways of dealing with this, such as a fence, long = tether( with access to water, shade etc.), specialised training or the = use of common sense! One important question is how you have previously reacted when the dog = disobeyed and didn't come back immediately. If you shouted at him and = then smacked him when he finally came back (which can be very tempting = when you have been chasing a dog across a field for two hours) then he = probably doesn't know whether it is a good idea to come back in the = furure. Hunting training classes sound like a terrible idea.=20 You are assuming that the dog is running away to go hunting.... there is = no reason to assume this. it is just as likely he is running away simply = to roam the neighbourhood scavenging and snooping about. If you send him to 'hunting classes' (whatever that means), then you may = just give him another interest to pursue when he is out of your control. In short, seek help from your vet, who may recommend a behaviourist. Stop worrying about hunting instincts. This is not a problem that is specific to jack russel terriers. Your first port of call is the local DIY centre, get a decent fence and = gate installed good luck! jon p.s. is the dog neutered? --Boundary_(ID_QcxdF3wf9E+Ok68cfknD7w) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
this problem has not  simply to = do with=20 behaviour, hunting or otherwise.
 
You can't really expect a dog to = stay in your=20 unfenced garden just because that area is differentiated from other = peoples'=20 land by a property deed! If there is no clear line to cross, the dog is = not=20 likely to understand where you expect him to stay.
 
Ordinary training classes are not = likely to=20 help, especially if you don't practise training regularly in a wide = variety of=20 situations (not just at classes).
 
A shock collar could make your = problems much,=20 much worse, and in any case I feel that the use of any highly punitive = method of=20 training such as this is completely unnecessary (and barbaric) as a = first=20 attempt to control a problem.
 
Imagine how this situation looks to = the=20 dog....how is it supposed to learn from about a previously undelineated=20 perimeter through the delivery of a few painful and untimely=20 shocks.
 
There have to be better ways of dealing with this, = such as a=20 fence, long tether( with access to water, shade etc.), specialised = training or=20 the use of common sense!
 
One important question is how you = have=20 previously reacted when the dog disobeyed and didn't come back = immediately. If=20 you shouted at him and then smacked him when he finally came back (which = can be=20 very tempting when you have been chasing a dog across a field for two = hours)=20 then he probably doesn't know whether it is a good idea to come back in = the=20 furure. 
 
Hunting training classes sound like a terrible idea. =
You are assuming that the dog is running away to go=20 hunting.... there is no reason to assume this. it is just as likely he = is=20 running away simply to roam the neighbourhood scavenging and snooping=20 about. 
If you send him to 'hunting classes' (whatever that = means),=20 then you may just give him another interest to pursue when he is out of = your=20 control. 
 
In short, seek help from your vet, = who may=20 recommend a behaviourist.
Stop worrying about hunting instincts.
This is not a problem that is specific to jack = russel=20 terriers.
Your first port of call is the local DIY centre, get = a decent=20 fence and gate installed 
 
 
good luck!
 
jon
p.s. is the dog=20 neutered?
--Boundary_(ID_QcxdF3wf9E+Ok68cfknD7w)-- From: IN%"alp18@cus.cam.ac.uk" 9-JUN-1998 06:26:24.54 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Anthrozoos 11(1) Anthrozoos A Multidisciplinary Journal of the Interactions of People and Animals =A9 Delta Society ISSN 0892-7936 Published in association with the International Association of Human-Animal Interaction Organizations. Contents Volume 11 (1) 1998 Out now Guest Editorial Why Anthrozo=F6s should embrace the humanities Marion Copeland pp. 3-4 Reviews and Research Reports Whale shark tourism in Ningaloo Marine Park, Australia Derrin Davis pp. 5-11 Animal activity and visitor learning at the zoo Joanne D. Altman pp. 12-21 Long-term effectiveness of dolphin-assisted therapy for children with severe disabilities David E. Nathanson pp. 22-32 Personality characteristics of dog and cat persons Rose M. Perrine and Hannah L. Osbourne pp. 33-40 Surrendering pets to shelters: The relinquisher's perspective Natalie DiGiacomo, Arnold Arluke and Gary Patronek pp.41-51 Book Reviews *Animal acts: Configuring the human in Western history *War dogs: Canines in combat *The lost history of the canine race: Our 15,000 year love affair with dogs **************** Anthrozo=F6s is a quarterly, peer-reviewed publication whose focus is to report the results of studies, from a wide array of disciplines, on the interactions of people and animals. Academic disciplines represented include: anthropology, archaeozoology, art and literature, education, ethology, history, human medicine, psychology, sociology and veterinary medicine. The journal is indexed in Animal Behavior Abstracts, CAB Abstracts, Current Advances in Ecological & Environmental Periodicals, Bibliography, Indian Journal of Veterinary Surgery, Linguistics and Language Behavior Abstracts, Psychological Abstracts, Referativinyi Zhurnal: Biologia, Science Citation Index, Sociological Abstracts, Current Contents/Social & Behavioral Sciences=AE, Focus on Veterinary Science and Medicine=81, Social Science Citation Index, and Veterinary Bulletin. =46ull instructions for authors can be obtained from the Editor-In-Chief: Anthony L. Podberscek, University of Cambridge, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, Madingley Road, Cambridge, CB3 0ES, UK. Phone: (0) 1223 33 0846; fax: (0) 1223 33 0886; email: alp18@cus.cam.ac.uk Send all manuscripts, books for review and correspondence to the Editor-in-Chief. Subscription information: Individual rate (USA): $40 per annum Individual rate (outside USA): $50 per annum Members of ISAZ (International Society for Anthrozoology) are entitled to a 10% discount to annual subscriptions and should use the form provided by the society. Institution rate (USA): $55 Institution rate (outside of USA): $65 * Interested in subscribing or in obtaining a free sample copy of the journal? Then contact: Delta Society, 289 Perimeter Road East, Renton, WA 98055-1329, USA or email: deltasociety@cis.compuserve.com Web page: http://www.deltasociety.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= Anthony L. Podberscek 'We're going to laugh and play= , University of Cambridge and fill the house with Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine children' Dangerous Women Madingley Road Cambridge CB3 OES UK ph: (01223) 33 0846 fax: (01223) 33 0886 e-mail: alp18@cus.cam.ac.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 9-JUN-1998 16:44:22.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Self trauma -REPONSE Steve There are cases that present very similarly to a compulsive disorder, that are obvioulsy attention getting behaviors. This is not surprising, since compulsive behaviors generally develop from conflict behavior. Conflict behavior is a part of the normal ethogram of most species. If it is shown initially in a conflict situation, and receives an owner's attention, it may become conditioned. a case of a air-snapping dog comes to mind; snapping disappeared very soon after the owner was instructed to ignore it. In this case, attention getting behavior is not adjunctive behavior that is typically shown in the interim period between reinforcements (i.e. when the animal does not anticipate reinforcement) but before and until reinforcement is obtained. I agree that in true compulsive disorder reinforcement is not an commonly important aggtravating factor, and it is certainly hardly ever a causative factor. However, condiitoned behavior always is an important differential diagnosis when a behavior presents like a compulsive behavior. Andrew Luescher At 02:10 AM 6/6/98 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Applied-Ethology List Members: > >The several recent posts generated by Dr. Cameron's recommendations >regarding the management of excessive licking and auto-mutilation have >been very interesting. However, one area of special concern raised by >several respondents deserves additional analysis, viz. the role of >"attention-getting" in the maintenance of compulsive habits. Simply >stated, the operative hypothesis assumes that some compulsive disorders >are reinforced and maintained by social attention (both negative and >positive) obtained by performing some perseverating sequence, e.g., >repeatedly licking. > >There appears to be some LIMITED justification for this general belief, >although it is probably not very relevant to the development of "true" >compulsions. For example, many "whirlers" can be prompted to chase >their tail by waving a finger in a circular movement above their heads. >The signal readily evokes a whirling response in the willing dog, which >may be subsequently reinforced by social approval and praise. One might >conclude that in some cases whirling is a learned response that the >owner has deliberately prompted and rewarded in the past with attention. >However, can one fairly view such whirling activity as a motoric >"compulsion" simply because it is topographically similar to a >legitimate compulsive disorder? Whirling (as described above) is more >like a trick or trained behavior--something quite different from the >compulsive whirling exhibited by affected bull terriers, for example. I >don't know of any definitive case in which compulsive licking (or >whirling) has been arbitrarily conditioned by social rewards. > >Over the years some rather bizarre habits and disorders have been >identified as being under the presumptive control of an >attention-getting motivation. A leading proponent of this view is B. L. >Hart (1980). Hart has proposed an attention-getting cause underlying a >broad spectrum of compulsive behaviors and psychosomatic conditions: > >"Attention-getting behavior almost defies categorization. The behavior >may appear as a major disorder such as lameness, paralysis of the rear >legs, shadow chasing or hunting for imaginary objects. The behavior may >involve autonomic response such as diarrhea, vomiting or asthmalike >reactions. Mutilation of a leg or tail, or seizurelike disorders, may >also be attention-getting (1980:99)." > >This position has many obvious difficulties. If attention-getting is a >strong social reward, capable of conditioning and sustaining compulsive >habits that resist even severe punishment, one might expect that >compulsive behavior would be far more common among dogs than it actually >is. In fact, compulsive behavior disorders are comparatively uncommon >among dogs. One might also expect to find a considerable variety of >compulsive habits, but, again, the types of compulsive disorder among >dogs are limited to a small number of relatively stereotypic forms. >Further, if a robust causal connection really existed between excessive >licking, whirling, etc., and attention-getting one should expect that >they would be easy to condition and extinguish by the differential >presentation and withdrawal of social attention. To my knowledge, no >one has demonstrated that a "true" canine compulsion can be established >by social reinforcement or, conversely, extinguished by omitting it. The >truth is that no therapeutic approach based on the management of >attention-getting has been demonstrated (proven) effective for the >control of compulsive licking or for any other canine compulsive >disorder. > >If we assume for the sake of argument that attention-getting might >control some compulsive habits, how can we be sure that a particular >compulsive behavior is actually influenced by attention-getting and not >some other concurrent cause in the situation. Hart and Hart (1985) >advise that such determinantions are best accomplished by observing the >dog while he is in contact with the owner and then again in social >isolation. If the dog habitually displays the habit only when in the >presence of people, it is presumed that the behavior is motivated by >some attention-getting interest. Although attention-getting may be a >motivational factor, the isolation test is far from conclusive and >proves nothing with respect to role of "attention-getting." For >example, the dog may simply feel anxious or suffer some other >unidentified distress while in the owner1s presence that causes him to >lick, whirl, suck, or whatever. Rather than seeking the owner1s >attention such a dog might simply be aroused with an APPEARANCE of a >need for attention, perhaps stemming from a general nervous arousal >produced by being in close proximity with the owner. Also, dogs placed >in isolation may not be so much affected by the loss of attention as >they are by the elimination of environmental and emotional stimuli that >trigger compulsive activity. Additionally, many dogs become either >depressed or excited when in isolation, thus confounding the proposed >interpretation of the effects of isolation on compulsive behavior. > >While attention-getting may play some role in the precipitation and >maintenance of compulsive excesses, no scientific evidence based on >experimentally derived data supports the notion. At best, >"attention-getting" is a hypothesis that awaits falsification. In my >opinion, it may be more profitable to analyze and interpret >attenting-getting as an adjunctive behavioral excess (see Falk, 1981) >that facilitates or potentiates certain compulsive habits rather than >viewing it as a reward-outcome maintaining the compulsion. That is, >attention-getting may occur comorbidly with and, perhaps, facilitate a >variety of compulsive disorders that present during close social contact >and excitement, but not necessarily as a social reinforcer supporting >the instrumental acquisition and maintenance of compulsive behavior. > >References > >Falk JL (1981). The environmental generation of excessive behavior. In >S J Mule (Ed) Behavior in Excess: An Examination of the Volitional >Disorders. New York: The Free Press. > >Hart, B L (1980). Attention-getting behavior. In BL Hart (Ed) Canine >Behavior (A Practitioner Monograph). Santa Barbara, CA: Veterinary >Practice Publishing Company. > >Hart BL, Hart L A (1985). Canine and Feline Behavioral Therapy. >Philadelphia, PA: Lea and Febiger. > >********** > >Steve Lindsay >Canine Behavioral Services >12 W. Willow Grove Ave., #188 >Philadelphia, PA >PH (215) 248-0808 >E-MAIL slindsay@ix,netcom.com > >"Good training is disciplined play." > >--H. Hediger, >The Psychology and Behaviour of Animals in Zooz and Circuses > >********** > > From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 9-JUN-1998 16:56:34.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Self trauma -REPONSE DBC and Steve Just that ignoring improves certain behaviors does not necessarily mean they were conditioned. Part of the treatment of compulsive behavior is ignoring, because in many cases it appears that an inconsistent owner-dog interaction is part of the problem (an unpredictable, uncontrollable environment is an important stress and conflict inducing factor). By ignoring, we eliminate this causal factor. Andrew Luescher At 04:50 PM 6/6/98 -0400, you wrote: >Reply to message from slindsay@ix.netcom.com of Sat, 06 Jun >> >>Dear Applied-Ethology List Members: >> >>The several recent posts generated by Dr. Cameron's recommendations >>regarding the management of excessive licking and auto-mutilation have >>been very interesting. However, one area of special concern raised by >>several respondents deserves additional analysis, viz. the role of >>"attention-getting" in the maintenance of compulsive habits. Simply >>stated, the operative hypothesis assumes that some compulsive disorders >>are reinforced and maintained by social attention (both negative and >>positive) obtained by performing some perseverating sequence, e.g., >>repeatedly licking. >> >>There appears to be some LIMITED justification for this general belief, >>although it is probably not very relevant to the development of "true" >>compulsions. For example, many "whirlers" can be prompted to chase >>their tail by waving a finger in a circular movement above their heads. >>The signal readily evokes a whirling response in the willing dog, which >>may be subsequently reinforced by social approval and praise. One might >>conclude that in some cases whirling is a learned response that the >>owner has deliberately prompted and rewarded in the past with attention. >>However, can one fairly view such whirling activity as a motoric >>"compulsion" simply because it is topographically similar to a >>legitimate compulsive disorder? Whirling (as described above) is more >>like a trick or trained behavior--something quite different from the >>compulsive whirling exhibited by affected bull terriers, for example. I >>don't know of any definitive case in which compulsive licking (or >>whirling) has been arbitrarily conditioned by social rewards. > > > A quick skimming of my records allows me to offer your first: >"Ozzie" Weimaraner M(c) 7~years 37kg. >Has been "fly biting" for 4 years+-. O (Owner) believes that it started >when hornets invaded their home and P (patient) chased them and was >stung several times. O's showered P with attention at the time and >P gradually got worse with the fly biting behavior. > Present attention is mostly joking ("Hey Oz, there are no bugs") >to distraction and punishment. > P has had a full medical work-up by an internist including a >cat-scan. All tests were WNL. At the time of the initial visit to my >office his fly biting behavior was occuring many times per day and was >triggered by any excitement, especially feeding. > On examination P's problem was more complex than just the fly >biting and included attention-getting behavior, sep. anx., and >TX phobia. > Treatment included: > - 100% ignoring of fly biting symptoms. > - NFL (No Free Lunch) program (P to get no benefits (attention, etc.) > w/o giving a response to any command first.) > - Clomipramine 75mg bid. (O's to start drug only after getting > pre-drug tests (CBC, Chem-screen, auscultation) first.) > Results: > - O's started the Ignoring and NFL program right away and soon > the symptoms were, "a lot better". > - A week later the drugs were started which lowered the incidence >of the fly biting even more; in the range of once a week or so. > - A recall 10 months later showed P was still on clomipramine, >and was still having mild symptoms ("one or two snaps at a time") 4-5 >times per week. Significantly, for a period the symptoms became worse >until O's discovered that the babysitter was not doing the ignoring and >NFL program. When the baby sitter was corrected, the symptoms settled >down to base level again. > My interpretation of the above is that the patient has a basic >compulsive problem that social conditioning makes worse. > >> >>Over the years some rather bizarre habits and disorders have been >>identified as being under the presumptive control of an >>attention-getting motivation. A leading proponent of this view is B. L. >>Hart (1980). Hart has proposed an attention-getting cause underlying a >>broad spectrum of compulsive behaviors and psychosomatic conditions: >> >>"Attention-getting behavior almost defies categorization. The behavior >>may appear as a major disorder such as lameness, paralysis of the rear >>legs, shadow chasing or hunting for imaginary objects. The behavior may >>involve autonomic response such as diarrhea, vomiting or asthmalike >>reactions. Mutilation of a leg or tail, or seizurelike disorders, may >>also be attention-getting (1980:99)." >> >>This position has many obvious difficulties. If attention-getting is a >>strong social reward, capable of conditioning and sustaining compulsive >>habits that resist even severe punishment, one might expect that >>compulsive behavior would be far more common among dogs than it actually >>is. > > Seems to me that we have a semantic problem here. As I understand >it, attention-getting behavior is quite different from compusive >behavior. The former is quite usually learned behavior and is very >common. In my practice AGB is associated with 57% of all of my >canine cases. For a behavior practice, this is a relatively hard >number, as my diagnotic criteria are rather objective. Furthermore, >it is my belief that AGB is even more common in the canine populace >that never get to the behaviorist level of diagnosis. (No, I am not >board certified, but I don't know what else to call myself. "Specialist" >is really a no-no.) > My understanding of compulsive behavior is that they are organic >problems; relatively rare in incidence. Even so, the symptoms, in my >experience are reliably enhanced by social reinforcement, and are >very often REDUCED by ignoring and NFL programs. > > >In fact, compulsive behavior disorders are comparatively uncommon >>among dogs. One might also expect to find a considerable variety of >>compulsive habits, but, again, the types of compulsive disorder among >>dogs are limited to a small number of relatively stereotypic forms. >>Further, if a robust causal connection really existed between excessive >>licking, whirling, etc., and attention-getting one should expect that >>they would be easy to condition and extinguish by the differential >>presentation and withdrawal of social attention. To my knowledge, no >>one has demonstrated that a "true" canine compulsion can be established >>by social reinforcement or, conversely, extinguished by omitting it. The >>truth is that no therapeutic approach based on the management of >>attention-getting has been demonstrated (proven) effective for the >>control of compulsive licking or for any other canine compulsive >>disorder. >> >>If we assume for the sake of argument that attention-getting might >>control some compulsive habits, how can we be sure that a particular >>compulsive behavior is actually influenced by attention-getting and not >>some other concurrent cause in the situation. > > A thorough medical work-up followed by a therapeutic trial of >AGB therapy would seem useful. > > >Hart and Hart (1985) >>advise that such determinantions are best accomplished by observing the >>dog while he is in contact with the owner and then again in social >>isolation. If the dog habitually displays the habit only when in the >>presence of people, it is presumed that the behavior is motivated by >>some attention-getting interest. Although attention-getting may be a >>motivational factor, the isolation test is far from conclusive and >>proves nothing with respect to role of "attention-getting." For >>example, the dog may simply feel anxious or suffer some other >>unidentified distress while in the owner1s presence that causes him to >>lick, whirl, suck, or whatever. Rather than seeking the owner1s >>attention such a dog might simply be aroused with an APPEARANCE of a >>need for attention, perhaps stemming from a general nervous arousal >>produced by being in close proximity with the owner. Also, dogs placed >>in isolation may not be so much affected by the loss of attention as >>they are by the elimination of environmental and emotional stimuli that >>trigger compulsive activity. Additionally, many dogs become either >>depressed or excited when in isolation, thus confounding the proposed >>interpretation of the effects of isolation on compulsive behavior. >> >>While attention-getting may play some role in the precipitation and >>maintenance of compulsive excesses, no scientific evidence based on >>experimentally derived data supports the notion. At best, >>"attention-getting" is a hypothesis that awaits falsification. > > "Falsification"? Is this what might be called a Freudian Slip? > > In my >>opinion, it may be more profitable to analyze and interpret >>attenting-getting as an adjunctive behavioral excess (see Falk, 1981) >>that facilitates or potentiates certain compulsive habits rather than >>viewing it as a reward-outcome maintaining the compulsion. That is, >>attention-getting may occur comorbidly with and, perhaps, facilitate a >>variety of compulsive disorders that present during close social contact >>and excitement, but not necessarily as a social reinforcer supporting >>the instrumental acquisition and maintenance of compulsive behavior. >> >>References >> >>Falk JL (1981). The environmental generation of excessive behavior. In >>S J Mule (Ed) Behavior in Excess: An Examination of the Volitional >>Disorders. New York: The Free Press. >> >>Hart, B L (1980). Attention-getting behavior. In BL Hart (Ed) Canine >>Behavior (A Practitioner Monograph). Santa Barbara, CA: Veterinary >>Practice Publishing Company. >> >>Hart BL, Hart L A (1985). Canine and Feline Behavioral Therapy. >>Philadelphia, PA: Lea and Febiger. >> >>********** >> >>Steve Lindsay >>Canine Behavioral Services >>12 W. Willow Grove Ave., #188 >>Philadelphia, PA >>PH (215) 248-0808 >>E-MAIL slindsay@ix,netcom.com >> >>"Good training is disciplined play." >> >>--H. Hediger, >>The Psychology and Behaviour of Animals in Zooz and Circuses >> >>********** >> >> > >-- > ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) > < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 > ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 > .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 > > From: IN%"Lee.ALLEN@dnr.qld.gov.au" "Allen Lee" 9-JUN-1998 19:03:13.47 To: IN%"IMCEACCMAIL-Applied-ethology+40sask+2Eusask+2Eca+20at+20Applied-ethology+40sask+2Eusask+2Eca@dnr.qld.gov.au" "'Applied Ethology'" CC: Subj: Intro to Network - Lee Allen Greetings, I'm a Senior Zoologist employed by the Department of Natural Resources in Queensland, Australia. I have been with the Department for about 16 years, primarily involved with the control and management of pest animals such as dingoes (Canis lupus dingo), feral pigs (Sus scrofa) etc. Over the last five years I have been occupied with a large project evaluating the role and impact of dingo predation in northern Australia. We are monitoring wildlife populations in response to dingo control versus no control while simultaneously comparing calf (Bos indicus, B.Taurus) losses on cattle stations in areas where dingoes have been aerial or ground baited, to areas, (on the same cattle station) where they have been left alone to interact with the livestock and wildlife. It has come as some surprise to discover that under certain conditions as much as 30% of newborn calves can be destroyed by dingoes. However, of greater surprise has been the discovery that these calf losses have occurred in areas where dingoes had been baited and the area subsequently re-colonized. Paradoxically, under most of the seasonal conditions we have encountered during this study, small or undetectable calf losses have occurred on these same properties where dingoes have been left alone in stable packs. I have sought out the Applied Ethology network to get in contact with some fellow researchers with experience with other canids such as the wolf or coyote. Has anyone else found a difference in prey selection between stable, adult packs and colonizing populations? I am familiar with Boyd et al. 1994 (J. Wildl. Manage) paper on prey taken by colonizing wolves. After corresponding with one of the authors, the explanation for that difference is perhaps dissimilar to the above. Look forward to corresponding over this and discussing interpretations or alternative explanations. Apart from the obvious management implications, there are some fascinating aspects in relation to prey selection/surplus killing and social status, the ethology of predation, ie. the importance of fleeing to the rush response of a predator, prey behavior and optimal forage theory. Regards! From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 9-JUN-1998 19:52:03.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction Dear Applied Ethology List members, I have recently subscribed to the applied-ethology network and would like to introduce myself. I am Debra Horwitz, a board certified veterinary behaviorist with a referral practice in St. Louis, Missouri. My primary interest is in small animal behavior problems, but I do a few birds and other animal species now and again. I am looking forward to reading the interesting posts and contributing when I can. Debra Horwitz From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 10-JUN-1998 01:50:19.06 To: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Self trauma -REPONSE Dear Applied-Ethology List Members The importance of predictable and controllable environmental stimulation for the attainment of healthy emotional and behavioral development of the dog is unquestionably of great significance. In the absence of orderly information, attentional abilities and learning become progressively dysfunctional and behavior inevitably disorganized. Further, it is evident that various debilitating cognitive, emotional, and somatic effects are evoked by the perception that significant environmental events are unpredictable and uncontrollable. Stimulus events that are unusually intense or traumatic, monotonously repetitive, long enduring, or poorly differentiated from other stimuli evoking opposing responses; all of these sorts of stimuli are productive of stress and, potentially, result in the elaboration of behavioral disturbances and learning disorders. Pavlov placed tremendous importance on the role of conflict and emotional distress in the development of "neuroses," including compulsive disorders. The studies carried out under his supervision demonstrated the importance of clearly defined conditioned stimulus events and the need for a matching correspondence or interface between the dog's moment to moment motivational state and the behavioral demands placed upon him to act in an effective manner. Successful adaptation depends on the development of a fluid correspondence between the animal 's expectations about the environment and the confirmation of these expectancies, i.e., the acquisition of reliable information about what will occur and knowing what to do (and how to do it) just in case such and such occurs. These experiences result in the dog becoming progressively attuned and responsive to the social and physical environment's demands and pressures without experiencing undue distress, anxiety, or frustration. According to Pavlov, the habitual production of stressful conflict contributes a large measure to the etiology of behavioral disorders in man and animals, especially in animals prone to neurotic elaboration, e.g., those possessing highly excitable or, on the other extreme, "melancholic" temperaments. Pavlov imagines that if a dog could speak he would confirm the importance of these basic etiological factors underlying the development of neurotic behavior: "One can conceive in all likelihood that, if these dogs which became ill could look back and tell what they had experienced on that occasion, they would not add a single thing to that which one would conjecture about their condition. All would declare that on every one of the occasions mentioned they were put through a difficult test, a hard situation. Some would report that they felt frequently unable to refrain from doing that which was forbidden and then they felt punished for doing it in one way or another, while others would say that they were totally, or just passively, unable to do what they usually had to do (Pavlov, 1941:84)." These observations underscore the importance of providing the dog with adequate instrumental control over significant events and the inherent dangers of situations in which such control (and predictability) are compromised. Such situations may produce excessive and pathological demands upon the to adjust, precipitating the expression of disorganized and dysfunctional behavior. These effects are especially deleterious in the opposing directions of the overly excitable dog, unable to control impulses without extreme exertion and difficulty; and the overly depressed dog, who is unable to act effectively even under the modest and routine demands of daily life. Although the pronounced symptoms of behavioral disintegration described in the laboratory are rarely met with in the family dog, many canine behavioral disturbances and compulsions may be attributed to the regular occurrence of events that are unpredictable and uncontrollable. This is especially true in those cases where stimulus events evoke highly emotional and persistent conflicts. From the above observations, one can conclude that remedial training for such dogs should include an effort to identify such sources of conflict and to provide the dog with consistent and well-organized instructional activity. Behavioral training is beneficial because it makes explicit and constantly reiterates the reliability of significant events; a process that helps the dog to recover his self-confidence and to develop an expectancy that the environment is predictable and controllable. The causation of compulsive disorder is probably not so much an attribute of conflict per se as it is an expression of the way the dog responds or copes with conflict and stress. The dog's predisposition to react adaptively or maladaptively to conflict and stress is determined by various biological factors (e.g., Pavlov's temperament types), the overall quality of previous learning experiences, and the animal's general ability to cope when confronted with conflict. The highly reactive and prone dog, after undergoing chronic exposure to frustrative, inconsistent, unpredictable, uncontrollable, or traumatic treatment, may conclude, when faced with stressful or difficult behavioral choices, that anything he does will be equally ineffectual and irrelevant to what actually occurs. This negative cognitive set emerges most dramatically in emotionally stressful situations where a choice must be made between two alternatives, where neither choice is apparently better than the other. The dog at risk of developing a compulsive disorder is unable to cope under such pressure. Such a dog may fall victim to a negative behavioral "belief" or expectancy obtained from previous experience with conflict-dense situations that inclines him to assume that all possible responses will be equally useless regarding the situation. Under the influence of stress and insoluble conflict, the predisposed dog becomes behaviorally dysfunctional or paralyzed; unable to act voluntarily, he is "rescued" by a compulsive substitute behavior that ACTS for him. Such a characterization of conflict in the development of compulsive behavior is not free of many theoretical and empirical questions that remain to be studied---conflict induction remains hypothesis requiring much more scientific analysis. References Pavlov IP (1941). Lectures on Conditioned Reinforcement: Conditional Reflexes and Psychiatry. W H Gantt (Trans), New York: International Publishers. Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services 12 West Willow Grove Avenue, #188 Philadelphia, PA 19118 Ph&FAX (215)248-0808 E-mail: slindsay@dogbehavior.com When a dog runs at you, whistle for him. --Thoreau, Journal, June 26, 1840 Andrew Luescher wrote: > > DBC and Steve > > Just that ignoring improves certain behaviors does not necessarily mean > they were conditioned. Part of the treatment of compulsive behavior is > ignoring, because in many cases it appears that an inconsistent owner-dog > interaction is part of the problem (an unpredictable, uncontrollable > environment is an important stress and conflict inducing factor). By > ignoring, we eliminate this causal factor. > > Andrew Luescher > > > > > From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 10-JUN-1998 08:01:42.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Self trauma -REPONSE Steve If you wanted to summarize your lecture in one sentence, are you saying that compulsive disorder is the same as learned helplessness? Andrew At 02:59 AM 6/10/98 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Applied-Ethology List Members > >The importance of predictable and controllable environmental stimulation for the attainment >of healthy emotional and behavioral development of the dog is unquestionably of great >significance. In the absence of orderly information, attentional abilities and learning become >progressively dysfunctional and behavior inevitably disorganized. Further, it is evident that >various debilitating cognitive, emotional, and somatic effects are evoked by the perception >that significant environmental events are unpredictable and uncontrollable. Stimulus events >that are unusually intense or traumatic, monotonously repetitive, long enduring, or poorly >differentiated from other stimuli evoking opposing responses; all of these sorts of stimuli are >productive of stress and, potentially, result in the elaboration of behavioral disturbances and >learning disorders. > >Pavlov placed tremendous importance on the role of conflict and emotional distress in the >development of "neuroses," including compulsive disorders. The studies carried out under his >supervision demonstrated the importance of clearly defined conditioned stimulus events and >the need for a matching correspondence or interface between the dog's moment to moment >motivational state and the behavioral demands placed upon him to act in an effective manner. >Successful adaptation depends on the development of a fluid correspondence between the >animal 's expectations about the environment and the confirmation of these expectancies, i.e., >the acquisition of reliable information about what will occur and knowing what to do (and >how to do it) just in case such and such occurs. These experiences result in the dog becoming >progressively attuned and responsive to the social and physical environment's demands and >pressures without experiencing undue distress, anxiety, or frustration. According to Pavlov, >the habitual production of stressful conflict contributes a large measure to the etiology of >behavioral disorders in man and animals, especially in animals prone to neurotic elaboration, >e.g., those possessing highly excitable or, on the other extreme, "melancholic" temperaments. >Pavlov imagines that if a dog could speak he would confirm the importance of these basic >etiological factors underlying the development of neurotic behavior: > > >"One can conceive in all likelihood that, if these dogs which became ill could look back and >tell what they had experienced on that occasion, they would not add a single thing to that >which one would conjecture about their condition. All would declare that on every one of the >occasions mentioned they were put through a difficult test, a hard situation. Some would >report that they felt frequently unable to refrain from doing that which was forbidden and >then they felt punished for doing it in one way or another, while others would say that they >were totally, or just passively, unable to do what they usually had to do (Pavlov, 1941:84)." > >These observations underscore the importance of providing the dog with adequate >instrumental control over significant events and the inherent dangers of situations in which >such control (and predictability) are compromised. Such situations may produce excessive >and pathological demands upon the to adjust, precipitating the expression of disorganized and >dysfunctional behavior. These effects are especially deleterious in the opposing directions of >the overly excitable dog, unable to control impulses without extreme exertion and difficulty; >and the overly depressed dog, who is unable to act effectively even under the modest and >routine demands of daily life. > >Although the pronounced symptoms of behavioral disintegration described in the laboratory >are rarely met with in the family dog, many canine behavioral disturbances and compulsions >may be attributed to the regular occurrence of events that are unpredictable and >uncontrollable. This is especially true in those cases where stimulus events evoke highly >emotional and persistent conflicts. From the above observations, one can conclude that >remedial training for such dogs should include an effort to identify such sources of conflict >and to provide the dog with consistent and well-organized instructional activity. Behavioral >training is beneficial because it makes explicit and constantly reiterates the reliability of >significant events; a process that helps the dog to recover his self-confidence and to develop >an expectancy that the environment is predictable and controllable. > >The causation of compulsive disorder is probably not so much an attribute of conflict per se >as it is an expression of the way the dog responds or copes with conflict and stress. The dog's >predisposition to react adaptively or maladaptively to conflict and stress is determined by >various biological factors (e.g., Pavlov's temperament types), the overall quality of previous >learning experiences, and the animal's general ability to cope when confronted with conflict. >The highly reactive and prone dog, after undergoing chronic exposure to frustrative, >inconsistent, unpredictable, uncontrollable, or traumatic treatment, may conclude, when faced >with stressful or difficult behavioral choices, that anything he does will be equally >ineffectual and irrelevant to what actually occurs. > >This negative cognitive set emerges most dramatically in emotionally stressful situations >where a choice must be made between two alternatives, where neither choice is apparently >better than the other. The dog at risk of developing a compulsive disorder is unable to cope >under such pressure. Such a dog may fall victim to a negative behavioral "belief" or >expectancy obtained from previous experience with conflict-dense situations that inclines him >to assume that all possible responses will be equally useless regarding the situation. Under the >influence of stress and insoluble conflict, the predisposed dog becomes behaviorally >dysfunctional or paralyzed; unable to act voluntarily, he is "rescued" by a compulsive >substitute behavior that ACTS for him. > >Such a characterization of conflict in the development of compulsive behavior is not free of >many theoretical and empirical questions that remain to be studied---conflict induction >remains hypothesis requiring much more scientific analysis. > >References > >Pavlov IP (1941). Lectures on Conditioned Reinforcement: Conditional Reflexes and >Psychiatry. W H Gantt (Trans), New York: International Publishers. > > >Steve Lindsay > >Canine Behavioral Services >12 West Willow Grove Avenue, #188 >Philadelphia, PA 19118 > >Ph&FAX (215)248-0808 > >E-mail: slindsay@dogbehavior.com > > >When a dog runs at you, whistle for him. > >--Thoreau, Journal, June 26, 1840 > > >Andrew Luescher wrote: >> >> DBC and Steve >> >> Just that ignoring improves certain behaviors does not necessarily mean >> they were conditioned. Part of the treatment of compulsive behavior is >> ignoring, because in many cases it appears that an inconsistent owner-dog >> interaction is part of the problem (an unpredictable, uncontrollable >> environment is an important stress and conflict inducing factor). By >> ignoring, we eliminate this causal factor. >> >> Andrew Luescher >> > >> > >> > > > From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 10-JUN-1998 12:18:15.92 To: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Self trauma -REPONSE Andrew Luescher wrote: > > Steve > > If you wanted to summarize your lecture in one sentence, are you saying > that compulsive disorder is the same as learned helplessness? > >Andrew Andrew, No, I don't consider "learned helplessness" and compulsive disorder to be equivalent conditions. The animal experiencing LH appears to exhibit a complete lack of operant initiative to choose or act. LH produces a temporary (usually) and global state of cognitive and conative arrest--an extreme debilitating outcome following exposure to unpredictable and uncontrollable traumatic stimulation. Compulsive disorders are usually more permanent, they may present and persist without an identifiable precipitating cause, and the animal is able to function effectively in other ways not directly interfered with by the compulsion. Although some complusive disorders MAY be related to the stressful presentation of unpredictable and uncontrollable events, it is not my assumption here that compulsive disorder is "learned helplessness," but it may well be that some compulsive disorders are maintained to a certain extent by "feelings of helplessness" in the face of insoluble emotional conflict. Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services 12 West Willow Grove Avenue, #188 Philadelphia, PA 19118 Ph&FAX (215)248-0808 When a dog runs at you, whistle for him. --Thoreau, Journal, June 26, 1840 From: IN%"learning@ozemail.com.au" "Carlos Raimundo" 10-JUN-1998 17:40:29.81 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Group-talk" CC: Subj: Instiinct & Innate This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_C9tYBAnmaZXOq4UFC2NUQg) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Can somebody help me to identify the difference between Instinct and = Innate in ethological terms? Thank you=20 Carlos Dr. Carlos A. Raimundo learning@ozemail.com.au=20 --Boundary_(ID_C9tYBAnmaZXOq4UFC2NUQg) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Can somebody help me to identify the = difference=20 between Instinct and Innate in ethological terms?
Thank you
Carlos
Dr. Carlos A. Raimundo
learning@ozemail.com.au=20
--Boundary_(ID_C9tYBAnmaZXOq4UFC2NUQg)-- From: IN%"w.schoo@noldus.nl" "Wineke Schoo" 11-JUN-1998 06:04:24.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: June 15: MB98 Early Registration Deadline MEASURING BEHAVIOR '98 2nd International Conference on Methods and Techniques in Behavioral Research Groningen, The Netherlands 18-21 August 1998 With this this message we would like to remind you that the early registration deadline for Measuring Behavior '98 is June 15. Until then you can register for NLG 500 (students: NLG 250). After June 15, the registration fee is NLG 600 (students: NLG 300). One Dutch guilder (NLG 1) equals approx. US$ 0,50. There is new conference content on the Measuring Behavior '98 web site (http://www.noldus.com/events/mb98/mb98.htm). The site now contains a list of all presentations, grouped by topic. The site also has updated information about exhibitors of books, instruments and software. There is still (limited) room for poster submissions. Please use the Abstract Submission Form on the web site or the paper form mailed to you. To take advantage of the early registration discount, please make sure any mail registrations are postmarked by June 15 and that all web site registrations or fax registrations are received by June 15. We hope to see you in August! Wineke Schoo Local Organizing Committee Measuring Behavior '98 Conference Secretariat P.O. Box 268 6700 AG Wageningen The Netherlands Phone: +31-317-497677 Fax: +31-317-424496 E-mail: mb98@noldus.nl Web: http://www.noldus.com/events/mb98/mb98.htm From: IN%"D.Goodwin@soton.ac.uk" "debbie goodwin" 11-JUN-1998 08:35:42.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAZ '98 Prague programme ISAZ '98 International Society for Anthrozoology Annual Conference. Prague Hilton Atrium Hotel Conference Centre, Prague, Czech Republic. Wednesday 9th September 1998, beginning at 1015. ISAZ '98 "Human - companion animal communication: understandings and misunderstandings" This meeting is open to all persons registered for the 8th International Conference on Human-Animal Interactions; non-members of ISAZ will be charged 5 US dollars for the abstract booklet. This meeting will focus on inter-species communication, including examples where the signals are correctly understood by the recipient, and those where misinterpretation occurs. Animal-human and human-animal communication will be featured and "companion animal" includes species other than the dog and cat, e.g horses. 1015 Introduction (Ian Robinson) Session: "Ethology and comparative psychology of animal-human communication". Chair: Ian Robinson. 1025 Talking to one of the family: communication with pet dogs. (Fifield, Canterbury, NZ). 1045 Regulation of interactions between cats and humans by gaze and mutual gaze. (Goodwin, Southampton, UK). 1105 Olfactory communication between man and other animals. (Sommerville, Cambridge, UK). 1125 Visual communication in horses and the human-horse relationship. (Isaac, Southampton, UK). 1145 Discussion 1200 ISAZ AGM 1230 Lunch (Chair: Enders-Slegers) 1330 Communication and social understanding between humans and dogs: an ethological view. (Csanyi, Eotvos University, Hungary). 1400 The role of social rules in object permanence tasks: a comparative study on dogs and humans. Topal, Eotvos, Hungary. 1420 Discussion Session: "Assessing the behaviour of individual dogs" Chair: John Bradshaw 1435 Understanding and misunderstanding guide dogs: reliability of behavioural survey data. (Serpell, Pennsylvania, USA). 1505 A validated test of separation behaviour in kennelled rescue dogs. (McPherson, Southampton, UK). 1520 The detection and classification of aggression in dogs housed at animal shelters in the UK. (Morgan, Southampton, UK). 1540 Discussion 1600 Close. ---------------------- J W S Bradshaw BA PhD Waltham Director of the Anthrozoology Institute School of Biological Sciences University of Southampton SO16 7PX Tel: (0)1703-594367 Fax: (0)1703-594269 AzI web site at http://www.soton.ac.uk/~azi/azi.htm e-mail: jwsb@soton.ac.uk LATEST INFORMATION ON ISAZ'98 CAN BE FOUND AT http://www.soton.ac.uk/~azi/isaz6.htm From: IN%"D.Goodwin@soton.ac.uk" "debbie goodwin" 11-JUN-1998 09:14:57.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: 8th International Conference on Human-Animal Interactions For information on the 8th International Conference on Human-Animal Interactions Contact AFIRAC: 7, rue du Pasteur Wagner, 75011 Paris, France. Tel: +33 149 29 12 00 Fax: +33 148 06 55 65 email Prague98@information-et-entreprise.fr From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 11-JUN-1998 09:56:49.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dogs in Ecuador Dear All, Below is a message that was originally sent to the Scientists Center for Animal Welfare regarding problems with dogs in Ecuador and attempts to solve them. This message may be of interest to several persons - especially those perons interested in international issues. Ray Stricklin --- Begin Forwarded Message --- Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:58:55 From: scaw@erols.com Subject: humane society Sender: scaw@erols.com To: info@aalas.org, lapaoli@ucdavis.edu, rwolfe@uga.cc.uga.edu, ws31@umail.umd.edu, tmsline@uthscsa.edu, oawards@erols.com Reply-To: scaw@erols.com Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980611075855.2e276af8@pop.erols.com> >Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:29:38 GMT >X-Sender: amy@unl.edu.ec >To: scaw@erols.com >From: "Elizabeth Daut, DVM" >Subject: humane society > >To whom it may concern: >> >> My name is Elizabeth Daut, DVM. I am currently serving as a Peace >Corps Volunteer and teaching at the veterinary school in Loja, Ecuador. I >am writing to obtain information concerning a sterilization campaign and >creation of an animal shelter that the University, Municipio of Loja and I >are organizing. >> Loja is a city of roughly 120,000 people and is located in the >Sierras in the southern half of the country. As in most of the large cities >in Ecuador, the local municipios manage the feral dog situation through a >continuous eradication program via intoxication with strychnine, a very >cheap and effective albiet inhumane method. I have been told by a >veterinarian who works with the Municipio that 100 strychnine capsules are >manufactured weekly with the intent to poison the street dogs. Little >attention is paid to the possibility that some of the dogs may be pets for >there is no registration or license programs. I have yet to determine the >actual number of dogs killed on a weekly basis. >> I and various faculty members have written and submitted a proposal >to the Municipio suggesting alternatives for controlling the feral dog >population, ie. sterilization campaign and animal shelter. We have met with >much resistance, the economic "crisis" being cited as the major obstacle >inhibiting such a project. >> Currently I am working with numerous verterinary students and >several interested verterinarians to create an independent association to >support and manage this project. Three of the 5th year vet students are >doing their thesis on the creation and management of an animal shelter and >will serve as a tremendous labor resource. I feel optimistic that the >citizens of Loja are ready for alternative methods of animal control and are >willing to support such an enterprise. >> One of our primary goals is to educate the people and develop a >moral consciousness towards the humane treatment of animals. I am working >with one of the local television stations to make a community service >education campaign describing the benefits of sterilization, the creation of >an animal shelter/adoption program, the rights of animals and the health >benefits to society. (Rabies is rampant in Ecuador and is a major public >health risk). We also have contacts with existing organizations in and >around Loja to help distribute the information to the smaller communities >and to assist logistically with managing the project. In addition, we have >the added resource of the vet students, readily willing to practice their >surgical skills and volunteer or rotate through the animal shelter. >> I am hoping that your organization may be able to provide material >and/or monetary assistance. We are looking for information concerning >public health issues (principally rabies); the benefits of sterilization; >additional methods of animal control; animal rights; adoption programs; >logistics involved in managing an animal shelter/humane society and methods >to create a self-sustaining enterprise. >> We would greatly appreciate any assistance you could provide. >Please contact me if further information is required. I look forward to >future correspondence. >> >>Cordially, >>Elizabeth Daut >> > > > Scientists Center for Animal Welfare 7833 Walker Drive Suite 340 Greenbelt, MD 20770 (301) 345-3500 --- End Forwarded Message --- ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"zanella@pilot.msu.edu" "Dr. Adroaldo J. Zanella" 11-JUN-1998 15:09:38.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: TimesISAE members and friends: Remember:=20 The North-American Regional ISAE Meeting will take place in E. Lansing, Michigan.=20 The local organizing committee put an effort to offer a strong scientific program and plenty of social activities. The main objective of the meeting is to facilitate the interaction among graduate students and applied ethologists. The response to the announced conference, from the ISAE members, has been great, thanks for planning to attend the meeting. If you are still wondering if you should come to E. Lansing or not let me tell you:=20 you will risk to miss the meeting of the year if you fail to register. Check the meeting program: 0000,0000,00FFhttp://www.msu.edu/unit/ans/i= sae.htm Looking forward to seeing you. Adroaldo J. Zanella Local organizer Dr. Adroaldo Jos=E9 Zanella Assistant Professor Ethology and Environmental Physiology Department of Animal Science Michigan State University Anthony Hall,=20 East Lansing , MI 48824 =46ax: (517) 353 1699 Phone: (517) 432 4134 From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 11-JUN-1998 21:17:38.70 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Dancing and Fitness A couple ideas about dancing ... 1) The sexual neutrality of rats was demonstrated 30 years ago by Seymour= Levine (and John Money, I think I remember it like it was yesterday!). = Give rat pups testosterone just at birth and obtain male behaviors (continuous sexual interest, mounting) -- regardless of genitalia. Block= testosterone release in male rat pups (castrate them) and obtain female behaviors (nesting, estrous-type receptivity, etc.) The really impressi= ve demo was putting an ovary into the eye of a castrated male rat and having= it release eggs! I suspect the basic pattern also applies to us. Male and Female are aggregates of the same psychological adaptations but in differing proportions. Men sometimes DO care for children and can sometimes be more= nurturant than some women. Likewise for any set of skills. (I suspect that men have great incidental memory in a hardware store or for a tool catalog ... would be fun to test) 2) The sensory neural mechanism of lateral inhibition acts as a contrast device. Very small differences in sensory input are amplified. LI is modality general ... touch, hearing, and vision at least. 3) Supernormal Stimuli are a factor in sexual selection. All this talk about displays and advertised health may have some merit but ... a senso= ry process likely accounts for the rapid appearance of secondary sexual trai= ts and without a lot of "linkage" hypotheses. (After all, I can show you orthoselection and SNS effects in our choices for autos, fashions, tools,= and weapons ... I hate to think that we have a "gene for" a car with bigg= er fins on the rear fenders that is proximal to our gene for producing the larger fins in the first place. The sensory thing makes far more sense (sic)) 4) Given the overlapping distribution of various behaviors in men and in women, it is not surprising that some behaviors will be displayed by men = or women in different contexts. 5) My bad anthropological impression is that males dance in many cultures= =2E.. brandishing spears, body paint, and animated, elaborate sequences .= =2E. all vitality markers (drawing the ladies) as well as teaching the less talented and maybe providing some inspiration for tomorrow's hunt. (At least they did in the Richard Dreyfus movie with the HBES poster.) Guys hunt differently now. Power is associated with sitting erect, sitting still. At least with the slightly more mature set. (Teenage guy= s still jump around but they're drinking and fighting rather than partaking= in a ritual dance for a hunt tomorrow.) Likewise, the correlation betwe= en physical agility and economic resources may be somewhat less than in the past (although smarter people are often more lively) with mature males; I= suspect the younger ladies still like the brawlers ... especially the livelier young ladies who have their own traits of defiance. 6) Women still do the selecting but want a peak number of applicants. Th= ey also advertise their own viability. Dancing is one way to do it. (It's also a social thing ... someone commented once that women can have a part= y and it's still a fairly good party. A bunch of young guys in the same arena get drunk or fight or both.) Giggling, laughing, tossing locks of hair, exaggerated eye movements also accomplish the same thing ... animat= ed things are generally more fun and draw the guys like moths to a flame. I've got no data, only ideas ... it's late. Jim Brody From: IN%"rudy.demeester@ping.be" "De Meester" 12-JUN-1998 02:46:20.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fw: (Fwd) (Fwd) FW: (Fwd) FW: virus warning!! > From: Wim Declercq > To: De Meester ; PETERS@lmb001.rug.ac.be; GEERTVL@lmb001.rug.ac.be; Cecile Geuijen ; Patricia.Agostinis@med.kuleuven.ac.be; PETERVDA@lmb001.rug.ac.be; Johan Smitz ; Thierry De Decker ; annemie_vergote@dadeint > Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) FW: (Fwd) FW: virus warning!! > Date: vrijdag 12 juni 1998 12:17 > > Forwarded message: > From: "Peter Vandenabeele" > Organization: Laboratory of Molecular Biology > To: #users > Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:53:55 GMT+0100 > Subject: (Fwd) FW: (Fwd) FW: virus warning!! > > > >>Dear Friends and Colleagues > >>I have just received a warning via the Cancer Research Campaign of a > >>new and very nasty computer virus that comes via E mail. This is the > >>message I received: >>Subject: WARNING >> >> >>If you receive an email > >>titled "WIN A HOLIDAY" DO NOT open it. >>It will erase everything on > >>your hard drive. Forward this letter out >>to as many people as you > >>can. This is a new, very malicious virus >>and not many people know > >>about it. This information was announced >>yesterday morning from > >>Microsoft; please share it with everyone that >>might access the > >>internet. Once again, pass this along to everyone >>in your address > >>book so that this may be stopped. > >> > >> > >> > >>Dept. of Medical Microbiology L4-P > >>Leiden University Medical Center > >>P.O. Box 9600 > >>2300 RC Leiden > >>Tel. + 31 71 5 263582 > >>Fax + 31 71 5 248148 > >>Email Dijkshoorn@Rullf2.Medfac.LeidenUniv.NL > >> > > > > > ********************************************************** > Dr. Danielle Janssens > Curator > BCCM/LMG Culture Collection > University Gent - Lab. Microbiology > K.L. Ledeganckstraat 35 > B-9000 Gent > Belgium > Phone +32-9-2645108 > Fax +32-9-2645346 > URL : http://www.belspo.be/bccm/lmg.htm > *********************************************************** > Wim Declercq, Phd > Laboratory of Molecular Biology > Flanders Interuniversity Institute for Biotechnology > University Ghent > K.L.Ledeganckstraat 35 > 9000 Ghent > tel: 09/2645144 > fax: 09/2645348 > E-mail: Wimdc@lmb1.rug.ac.be From: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" 12-JUN-1998 04:49:44.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: yuk! The really impressive demo was putting an ovary into the eye of a castrated male rat and having= it release eggs! This sounds like the most repulsive experiment to me. I would hope that anyone attempting such 'really impressive demos' today would receive the contempt they deserve. Catriona Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 **************************************************************************** From: IN%"kckissan@wam.umd.edu" "Kelly Caithlin Kissane" 12-JUN-1998 06:23:43.19 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Dancing and Fitness > I suspect the basic pattern also applies to us. Male and Female are > aggregates of the same psychological adaptations but in differing > proportions. Men sometimes DO care for children and can sometimes be more > nurturant than some women. Likewise for any set of skills. (I suspect > that men have great incidental memory in a hardware store or for a tool > catalog ... would be fun to test) > thank you James Brody. I'm always *very* fond of being reminded how masculine I am. Actually, I could be your expected outlier, since I know my way around a hardward store, a sports store, and the local home improvement chain. I know how to change the gas and air filter on my car, how to change the oil, how to replace the oil gasket and brakes and can recognize different sounds of car trouble and pinpoint where the problem is. Mechanics despise me, because I can usually tell when they are bull-shitting me. Ah, but my masculinity doesn't stop there. I'm also an avid sports fan, in particular baseball. I used to be a statician for a local basketball team. Give me a few moments, and I can still rattle off the starting lineup of the 1973 Detroit Tigers. An old boyfriend of mine quit playing fantasy baseball with me because I kept beating him. As a child, I preferred playing in streams collecting bugs to staying quietly at home playing with those stupid dolls. This activity earn me plenty of punishment, since my mother (and apparently a large proportion of society) believed there was something psychologically wrong with me. (Hmmm...I wonder how many people thought E. O. Wilson was crazy as a child for doing the same damn thing??) God damn, where's my penis? Yet, despite the fact that I'm not "model" proportions or looks, I dated quite a few men, men are stilll attracted to me despite my age (36) and I am completely heterosexual. Kelly C. Kissane From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 12-JUN-1998 07:00:08.93 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: hormones and behavior (no dancing) On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:16:41 -0400 "James F. Brody" wrote: > 1) The sexual neutrality of rats was demonstrated 30 years ago by Seymour > Levine (and John Money, I think I remember it like it was yesterday!). > Give rat pups testosterone just at birth and obtain male behaviors Allee, Guhl, Collias, Hale, Schein, and others produced "reversed" sexual behaviors using hormonal treatments in poultry in work published in the 1930's to 1960's. (I don't remember the work - only reading about it later!) I think any of the Hafez (Behaviour of Domestic Animals) editions will reference the work. I am not sure that the phrase "sexual neutrality" completely conveys the role of hormones in sexual orientation. I recently read a statement that said to the effect "the mind is both the garden and the gardener." Similarly I think the body does not first develop and then take on sexual behavior. Instead, the process is one in which the sexual behavior itself also influences the hormonal production which in turn influences the body, behavior, additional hormonal production, etc... (I am not suggesting that James Brody disagrees with what I have written. I only wanted to point out that even we workers in behavior may too often use wording that infers a precedence of physiology over behavior.) As a sad footnote, Martin W. Schein died just over a month ago. He played a significant in bringing about the establishment of both the (American) Animal Behavior Society and the journal _Animal Behaviour_. At the 1997 annual Animal Behavior Society meeting here at College Park, as the banquet speaker he gave a very interesting early history of the society. M.W. Schein published some of the earliest work on agonistic behavior in cattle. He was also recognized for his work on dust-bathing. During his professional life, he received his PhD from Johns Hopkins, was a researcher of poultry behavior at Penn State, and later served as Zoology Department chair at West Virginia Univ. Marty Schein was an important contributor to applied ethology. He will be missed. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 12-JUN-1998 07:12:40.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: masculinity/femininity Good Morning All! I can't resist joining in this one. Question: Why is that women are deficient if they DO NOT possess masculine traits/aptitudes/abilities and they are deficient if they DO? Comment: I'm surprised no one has yet brought up androgyny. Deb From: IN%"aae763@agora.ulaval.ca" "Alain Rivet" 12-JUN-1998 07:24:20.97 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dancing and Fitness > thank you James Brody. I'm always *very* fond of being reminded how >masculine I am. Actually, I could be your expected outlier, since I know >my way around a hardward store, a sports store, and the local home >improvement chain. I know how to change the gas and air filter on my car, >how to change the oil, how to replace the oil gasket and brakes and can >recognize different sounds of car trouble and pinpoint where the problem >is. Mechanics despise me, because I can usually tell when they are >bull-shitting me. > Ah, but my masculinity doesn't stop there. I'm also an avid sports fan, >in particular baseball. I used to be a statician for a local basketball >team. Give me a few moments, and I can still rattle off the starting >lineup of the 1973 Detroit Tigers. An old boyfriend of mine quit playing >fantasy baseball with me because I kept beating him. > As a child, I preferred playing in streams collecting bugs to staying >quietly at home playing with those stupid dolls. This activity earn me >plenty of punishment, since my mother (and apparently a large proportion >of society) believed there was something psychologically wrong with me. >(Hmmm...I wonder how many people thought E. O. Wilson was crazy as a child >for doing the same damn thing??) > >God damn, where's my penis? > >Yet, despite the fact that I'm not "model" proportions or looks, I dated >quite a few men, men are stilll attracted to me despite my age (36) and I >am completely heterosexual. Hi all... Aren't those signs you display as indicators of your masculinity (your words, not mine) more the product of education than evolution? I don't think I would use 'mechanical abilities' as an indicator of masculinity (of course, my view may be biased since I know nothing about cars)... I am just trying to imagine a test to distinguish men and women on the basis of behaviour (other than sexual) and have difficulties coming up with one that would give reliable results... Best Alain From: IN%"skolb@treko.net.au" "Steve Kolb" 12-JUN-1998 07:45:50.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: masculinity/femininity On 12 June, 1998 9:12 PM, Deborah McWilliams [SMTP:DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA] wrote: > Good Morning All! > I can't resist joining in this one. > > Question: Why is that women are deficient if they DO NOT possess > masculine traits/aptitudes/abilities and they are > deficient if they DO? Deb, I think its got less to do with women being deficient, its simply about recognising that men and women are differant. In the 70s and 80s a great case was made that all people were born the same, it was simply a difference of culture and upbringing. Today we have advanced from that view a little... The english book "Brainsex" made a great case for the biological differences in males and females, even though it was not pc to mention these. We know that hormones affect behaviour. Male and female brains have very differant levels of differant hormones, our behaviour is affected accordingly.. Steve From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 12-JUN-1998 09:00:55.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Commonsense and Hormones It seems to me that Androgens are the hormones of ridiculous risk taking and perseverance in the face of sound common-sense. Oestrogens seem to contribute to caution and care. Set the task of building cathedrals it is the male who goes on and on and on building more and more extravagant structure. A female architect is likely to design an exquisite edifice that is much more sensible in its proportions. She is likely to say 'this is entirely enough cathedral' far sooner than the male. And it is so with much Art, Literature, and dangerous sports. It is a minority of women who will (or can) override common-sense and self preservation to the degree that a majority of men will. Women show endurance and stamina in grindingly necessary or useful tasks. A sensible woman employs the male as she would an umbrella or stout boots. The most powerful women in History have used men to do the stupid stuff. Robin From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" 12-JUN-1998 09:28:14.21 To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology'" Subj: RE: hormones and behavior (no dancing) > As a sad footnote, Martin W. Schein died just over a month > ago. jeez. this really hit me. i'm very sorry to hear this. Marty got me into this business. as a junior biology major, with no particular interest in becoming an MD or drug salesperson --- Marty came to my college to give a talk on dustbathing in quail (thanks to Lou Rigley -- who got his PhD at WVU). Marty suggested that dustbathing was a 'preliminary' behavior to nesting, and further, Japanese quail didn't nest due to genetic changes during their domestication. I was shocked. genes influencing behavior, i knew. that genes could alter a requirement for "species survival" shocked me. we entered a longterm correspondence, followed rapidly by the publication of Ed Wilson's 'Sociobiology' and (imho - much better) 'The Evolution of Behavior' by Jerram Brown. shock followed shock as i discovered that someone might be willing to pay me to go to grad school!!!! Marty introduced me to Paul Siegel, where i eventually completed my MS and PhD, and after a few sojourns, jobs and postdocs, ended up in HB Grave's position at Penn State ---- where Marty started it all out along with Ed Hale. in fact, i recently had VHS tapes made of Marty's work on stimuli-releasing behavior in turkeys (found on 16mm film in the attic of an old poultry house!!). even stranger is the fact that both Austin and Maryanne Hughes, who came from Marty in WV, are also here at Penn State!! Maryanne has been working on one of my collaborative projects regarding gamete cryopreservation and proteins involved in sperm-egg interactions. Austin is one of the best molecular evolutionary biologists in the world, coming to dearoldstate along with MNei's center. i haven't heard nor seen Marty in years. but i will miss him nonetheless. all the best, guy From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 12-JUN-1998 09:37:56.55 To: IN%"skolb@treko.net.au" "Steve Kolb", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: masculinity/femininity Hey Steve! I disagree to an extent. We (in general terms) make value estimations/judgements about behaviours. A part of the value estimation/judgement is based on what we feel is appropriate behaviour. Androgyny, for example, is thought to develop from hormonal influences on the fetus in the womb just as male and female traits are influenced. (Keeping in mind that behaviours are shaped also by environment). Research indicates that people are less comfortable with an androgynous woman than with a man; less comfortable with a woman who displays "male" behaviours than with a man who displays "female" behaviours. Culture still is a factor. Deb From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 12-JUN-1998 09:38:33.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: question Does anyone know who is doing the research on behavioural and genetic problems in guide dogs for the sight impaired (and hearing impaired as well as physically challenged)? Deb From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 12-JUN-1998 10:04:54.90 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Commonsense and Hormones In a message dated 98-06-12 11:10:11 EDT, you write: << A sensible woman employs the male as she would an umbrella or stout boots >> At the risk of being accused of being a traitor to my sex, ......the problem is there are very few sensible women. Women are attracted to men because men are inherently different than women. Then women spend their life trying to change that which is inherently different and attracted them in the first place. Hardly sensible in my book!! Kathy Hughes From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 12-JUN-1998 10:23:55.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology-error" CC: Subj: RE: hormones and behavior (no dancing) Dear Guy: Thank you for posting this message. Marty and Ed Hale were two of the first persons in the US to formally study the behavior of domestic farm animals. As you know, both started this work at Penn State. Ed ---------- >From: applied-ethology-error >To: ws31 >Cc: 'Applied Ethology' >Subject: RE: hormones and behavior (no dancing) >Date: Friday, June 12, 1998 10:46AM > >> As a sad footnote, Martin W. Schein died just over a month >> ago. > >jeez. this really hit me. >i'm very sorry to hear this. > >Marty got me into this business. >as a junior biology major, with no particular interest in becoming an MD or >drug salesperson --- Marty came to my college to give a talk on dustbathing >in quail (thanks to Lou Rigley -- who got his PhD at WVU). Marty suggested >that dustbathing was a 'preliminary' behavior to nesting, and further, >Japanese quail didn't nest due to genetic changes during their >domestication. I was shocked. genes influencing behavior, i knew. that >genes could alter a requirement for "species survival" shocked me. > >we entered a longterm correspondence, followed rapidly by the publication of >Ed Wilson's 'Sociobiology' and (imho - much better) 'The Evolution of >Behavior' by Jerram Brown. shock followed shock as i discovered that >someone might be willing to pay me to go to grad school!!!! > >Marty introduced me to Paul Siegel, where i eventually completed my MS and >PhD, and after a few sojourns, jobs and postdocs, ended up in HB Grave's >position at Penn State ---- where Marty started it all out along with Ed >Hale. in fact, i recently had VHS tapes made of Marty's work on >stimuli-releasing behavior in turkeys (found on 16mm film in the attic of an >old poultry house!!). > >even stranger is the fact that both Austin and Maryanne Hughes, who came >from Marty in WV, are also here at Penn State!! >Maryanne has been working on one of my collaborative projects regarding >gamete cryopreservation and proteins involved in sperm-egg interactions. >Austin is one of the best molecular evolutionary biologists in the world, >coming to dearoldstate along with MNei's center. > >i haven't heard nor seen Marty in years. >but i will miss him nonetheless. > >all the best, >guy > > From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 12-JUN-1998 11:31:28.41 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Commonsense and Hormones -Reply A sensible woman employs the male as she would an umbrella or stout boots. The most powerful women in History have used men to do the stupid stuff. Robin __________________________________________________________ Wow! If a man made statements like these about women, there would be a significant flow of female venom on this list. Nice attitude. Paul From: IN%"skolb@treko.net.au" "Steve Kolb" 12-JUN-1998 18:00:03.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: masculinity/femininity On 12 June, 1998 11:35 PM, Deborah McWilliams wrote . Research indicates that people are less comfortable > with an androgynous woman than with a man; less comfortable with a > woman who displays "male" behaviours than with a man who displays > "female" behaviours. Deb, I think that would depend. A woman can dress up in male clothes and walk down the street and that is accepted. If a male did the same and dressed up in female clothes and walked down the street, that would be less accepted. Steve From: IN%"uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar" "Dr. Leopoldo Estol" 13-JUN-1998 01:39:07.93 To: IN%"mgething@tinet.ie" "WSAVA Maggie Gething", IN%"avepa@lix.intercom.es" "WSAVA avepa barcelona", IN%"VETSTU-L@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU" "VETSTU-L", IN%"VETMED@iupui.edu" "VETMED mail to List", IN%"odendhal.s@calc.vet.uga.edu" "UGA Stewart Odend'hal" CC: Subj: Argentine's day of the dog This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_17IUsLFQI3G1pUSOXlBELA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear friends I want to share this information about an argentine's heroic dog, = "Chonino". "He", not "it", was a German Shepherd Dog, born 04 April 1975, entered = Police Services on 15/11/77. Was trained as a security dog and his = fundamental characteristics classified him as a "company dog". His first = street assignment was at the Soccer Stadium River Plate at the = inauguration of the 1978 World Soccer Championship. On 02/03/83, while on patrol duty within the jurisdiction of the 45th. = Precint at the intersection of the Av. Gral. Paz & Lastra, Buenos Aires = City, and under the guidance of his carrier, 1rst. Corporal Jorge Ianni, = they intercepted two male sunjects in suspicious attitude. Their where = commanded to stop and far from obeying the order answered with firearms = shots. This caused Chonino to attack in defense of his master, being = able to seize one of the offenders, forcing him to drop his weapon. The = other wrongdoer inflicted grave wounds upon Chonino and 1rst. Corporal = Ianni, causing their decease. Chonino died clasping in his jaws a piece of the jacket that contained = the document of the murderer, which permit the identification and = subsequent arrest, purging at present sentence for life imprisonment. Argentine's society acknowledges Chonino's heroic act: a street in the = Palermo neighborhood bears his name and the day of his death has been = institued as "The National Day of the Dog" Profesor Leopoldo Estol, Medico Veterinario, Diplomado en Salud = Publica. Director, Carrera de Veterinaria, Universidad del Salvador.=20 Campus " N. S. del Pilar", C.C. 198, Pilar 1629, Provincia de Buenos Aires, ARGENTINA. Home phone (International + 54 1) 555 4580 & 552 1476 Office Fax. & Phone (International + 54 322) 31260 & 31261 & 31262 & = 31263 & 90503 & 26053 & 26057 E-mail: uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar=20 URL: http://www.salvador.edu.ar/uaf3-2.htm "The opinions expressed in this communication are my own, and do not = necessarily reflect those of my employer" "Las opiniones expresadas en esta comunicacion me pertenecen y no = reflejan necesariamente la opinion de la Universidad" --Boundary_(ID_17IUsLFQI3G1pUSOXlBELA) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Dear friends 
I want to share this information = about an=20 argentine's heroic dog, "Chonino".
"He", not "it", = was a German=20 Shepherd Dog, born 04 April 1975, entered Police Services on 15/11/77. = Was=20 trained as a security dog and his fundamental characteristics classified = him as=20 a "company dog". His first street assignment was at the Soccer = Stadium=20 River Plate at the inauguration of the 1978 World Soccer=20 Championship.
On 02/03/83, while on patrol duty = within the=20 jurisdiction of the 45th. Precint at the intersection of the Av. Gral. = Paz &=20 Lastra, Buenos Aires City, and under the guidance of his carrier, 1rst. = Corporal=20 Jorge Ianni, they intercepted two male sunjects in suspicious attitude. = Their=20 where commanded to stop and far from obeying the order answered with = firearms=20 shots. This caused Chonino to attack in defense of his master, being = able to=20 seize one of the offenders, forcing him to drop his weapon. The other = wrongdoer=20 inflicted grave wounds upon Chonino and 1rst. Corporal Ianni, causing = their=20 decease.
Chonino died clasping in his jaws a = piece of the=20 jacket that contained the document of the murderer, which permit the=20 identification and subsequent arrest, purging at present sentence for = life=20 imprisonment.
Argentine's society acknowledges = Chonino's=20 heroic act: a street in the Palermo neighborhood bears his name and the = day of=20 his death has  been institued as "The National Day of the=20 Dog"
 
Profesor Leopoldo Estol, = Medico =20 Veterinario, Diplomado en Salud Publica.
Director, Carrera de = Veterinaria,=20 Universidad del Salvador.
Campus " N. S. del = Pilar",
C.C. 198,=20 Pilar 1629, Provincia de Buenos Aires, ARGENTINA. 
Home phone (International + 54 1) = 555 4580 &=20 552 1476
Office Fax. & Phone = (International + 54 322)=20 31260 & 31261 & 31262 & 31263 & 90503 & 26053 &=20 26057
E-mail: uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar=20
URL:   http://www.salvador.edu.ar= /uaf3-2.htm
"The opinions expressed in this = communication are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my=20 employer"
"Las opiniones expresadas en esta comunicacion me = pertenecen y no reflejan necesariamente la opinion de la=20 Universidad" 
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_17IUsLFQI3G1pUSOXlBELA)-- From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 13-JUN-1998 07:03:55.13 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: masculinity/femininity Hello Steve! Context influences a lot of perceptions and males in obvious female attire is not an exception. A male in female attire and make- up will find less acceptance on the production line than at my fairly conservative Canadian university where it is not unusual to see male students wearing female clothes and/or make-up. My personal perception, re: attire and obvious displays of gender, is that the sexes have more commonalities (than differences) than even a few years previous. I often see people that I cannot immediately say with certainty if they are male or female. Deb > > > On 12 June, 1998 11:35 PM, Deborah McWilliams wrote > > . Research indicates that people are less comfortable > > with an androgynous woman than with a man; less comfortable with a > > woman who displays "male" behaviours than with a man who displays > > "female" behaviours. > > Deb, I think that would depend. A woman can dress up in male clothes > and walk down the street and that is accepted. If a male did the same > and dressed up in female clothes and walked down the street, that would > be less accepted. > Steve > > From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 13-JUN-1998 10:18:06.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Invitation to archive your papers in CogPrints Archive Dear All, Below is information about the distribution of scientific publications electronically - and I hope the process demonstrated is of interest to ISAE members. The material archived should also be of interest to some persons subscribed to this list. Regards, Ray Stricklin --- Begin Forwarded Message --- Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:47:40 +0100 From: Stevan Harnad Subject: Invitation to archive your papers in CogPrints Archive Sender: "PSYC: PSYCOLOQUY: Refereed Electronic Journal of Peer Discussion in" To: Multiple recipients of list PSYC Reply-To: "PSYC: PSYCOLOQUY: Refereed Electronic Journal of Peer Discussion in" Message-ID: <199806130954.FAA04858@umailsrv1.umd.edu> To all cognitive scientists (apologies if you receive this more than once): You are invited to archive your preprints and reprints in the CogPrints electronic archive. The Archive covers all the Cognitive Sciences: Psychology, Neuroscience, Biology, Computer Science, Linguistics and Philosophy CogPrints is completely free for everyone, both authors and readers, thanks to a subsidy from the Electronic Libraries Programme of the Joint Information Systems of the United Kingdom and the collaboration of the NSF-supported Physics Eprint Archive at Los Alamos. CogPrints has just been opened for public automatic archiving. This means authors can now deposit their own papers automatically. The first wave of papers had been invited and hand-archived by CogPrints in order to set a model of the form and content of CogPrints. To see the current holdings: http://cogprints.soton.ac.uk/ To archive your own papers automatically: http://cogprints.soton.ac.uk/author.html All authors are encouraged to archive their papers on their home servers as well. For ferther information: admin@coglit.soton.ac.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------- BACKGROUND INFORMATION (No need to read if you wish to proceed directly to the Archive.) The objective of CogPrints is to emulate in the cognitive and biobehavioral sciences the remarkable success of the NSF-subsidised Physics Eprint Archive at Los Alamos http://xxx.lanl.gov The Physics Eprint Archive now makes available, free for all, over half of the annual physics periodical literature, with its annual growth strongly suggesting that it will not be long before it becomes the locus classicus for all of the literature in Physics. What this means is that anyone in the world with access to the Internet (and that number too is rising at a breath-taking rate, and already includes all academics, researchers and students in the West, and an increasing proportion in the Third World as well) can now search and retrieve virtually all current work in, for example, High Energy Physics, much of it retroactive to 1990 when the Physics archive was founded by Paul Ginsparg, who must certainly be credited by historians with having launched this revolution in scientific and scholarly publication (www-admin@xxx.lanl.gov). Does this mean that learned journals will disappear? Not at all. They will continue to play their traditional role of validating research through peer review, but this function will be an "overlay" on the electronic archives. The literature that is still in the form of unrefereed preprints and technical reports will be classified as such, to distinguish it from the refereed literature, which will be tagged with the imprimatur of the journal that refereed and accepted it for publication, as it always has been. It will no longer be necessary for publishers to recover (and research libraries to pay) the substantial costs of producing and distributing paper through ever-higher library subscription prices: Instead, it will be the beneficiaries of the global, unimpeded access to the learned research literature -- the funders of the research and the employers of the researcher -- who will cover the much reduced costs of implementing peer review, editing, and archiving in the electronic medium alone, in the form of minimal page-charges, in exchange for instant, permanent, worldwide access to the research literature for all, for free. If this arrangement strikes you as anomalous, consider that the real anomaly was that the authors of the scientific and scholarly periodical research literature, who, unlike trade authors, never got (or expected) royalties for the sale of their texts -- on the contrary, so important was it to them that their work should reach all potentially interested fellow-researchers that they had long been willing to pay for the printing and mailing of preprints and reprints to those who requested them -- nevertheless had to consent to have access to their work restricted to those who paid for it. This Faustian bargain was unavoidable in the Gutenberg age, because of the need to recover the high cost of producing and disseminating print on paper, but Paul Ginsparg has shown the way to launch the entire learned periodical literature into the PostGutenberg Galaxy, in which scientists and scholars can publish their work in the form of "skywriting": visible and available for free to all. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Stevan Harnad harnad@cogsci.soton.ac.uk Professor of Psychology harnad@princeton.edu Director, phone: +44 1703 592582 Cognitive Sciences Centre fax: +44 1703 594597 Department of Psychology http://www.cogsci.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/ University of Southampton http://www.princeton.edu/~harnad/ Highfield, Southampton ftp://ftp.princeton.edu/pub/harnad/ SO17 1BJ UNITED KINGDOM ftp://cogsci.soton.ac.uk/pub/harnad/ --- End Forwarded Message --- ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 13-JUN-1998 15:37:01.59 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"listproc@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve" CC: Subj: Gator Sex and Complexity All of us balk somewhat at complex, human behavior as an expression of genes. This feeling is perhaps one more objection to the "naturalizatio= n" of humankind -- the sun no longer circles about us (Ptolemy), we obey natural laws (Darwin), we have "animal" instincts (Freud), and we listen = to our heritage, whether lectured or inseminated. It's easy for social learning fans to notice that alligator sex can be determined by how warm the egg is before it hatches. Warm eggs become boys, cool ones girls. = And what's true in principle for gator gonads must also be true for our manners. = However, Complexity Theory (Kauffman, 1991, 1995) suggests that one- or two-gene effects, acting without crosstalk, will be unstable and more sensitive to environmental changes. The less the crosstalk, the more brittle the outcome. More than 3 shared interactions, in contrast, produces great stability of output. Multiple genes -- working in synchro= ny -- allow more consistent features, fewer digital ones, and a richer mix i= n which intensity of a trait's expression varies more often than the frequency of the trait itself. Human traits could be more resilient tha= n gator sex ratios. True Story ... Shiela's Mom: "You talked her out of becoming a masseuse when you mention= ed she would have to give foot rubs; she can't stand touching feet or anyone= 's touching hers." Shiela, a month later: "I still hate touching feet, not even my own. I used to kick shoe salesmen when I was 5 because they wanted to touch my feet. My mom can't stand it either." From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 13-JUN-1998 21:43:12.11 To: IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Thoughts on evolutionary morality Hello, Second draft. Comments, please. Jim Brody --------------------- Darwinian Morality from the course book for: "Healing the Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution Cape Cod Institutes, 7/20-24/98 with Robert Wright, John Pearce, Russ Gardner with John Fentress, Robin Walker, & Dylan Evans Natural selection is a recurring process ... that is, individuals vary in= the expression of a particular trait, the difference is heritable, and th= e difference contributes to the greater reproductive success of individuals= carrying it. Note that the outcome -- reproductive success -- will not satisfy everyone as a standard for judging moral systems. Note also tha= t reproductive success, and morality, will vary with shifts in environments= =2E = Traits -- whether of protein or of ideas -- that thrive in one setting m= ay not do well in another. Other moral systems exist such as traditional religious derivations or "natural law"; both are themselves epiphenomena of natural selection. = Darwinian morality is a valued tool for understanding our need to assist each other and other creatures. A Darwinian level of analysis provides incredible detail for understanding human interactions and for helping us= understand and sometimes resolve dilemmas that we have with each other. = However, the system is limited. Imagine a centrifuge tube filled with a= complex liquid and spun rapidly in a circle, the bottom of the tube point= ed toward the outside. The artificial gravity of centrifugal force separate= s the mix into layers. In many regards, examining Darwinian morality is like appreciating one, and only one, layer of the original mixture. Within one layer, moral behavior is a cluster of psychological adaptation= s; designed by natural selection. Further, as Trivers remarked once about emotions, the primary function of morality is to govern reciprocal transactions between individuals, primate or not. Morality is not a culturally defined, arbitrary system; rather it is one that reflects substantial consistency -- design features -- between cultures and betwee= n species. Carl Sagan's Martian would put all of them into the same dusty case. Moral dilemmas -- "shoulds" facing "should nots" -- are often a component of emotional distress and may often reflect conflicting psychological adaptations. Morality and emotions -- both are mechanisms to attain continuity through= time. Thus, both exist because they promote individual survival and reproductive fitness. Morality adjusts the balance between our short an= d long term self interests; it also addresses the balance between our personal survival interests and those of our genes, between choices that have an immediate benefit to an individual and those that sacrifice him f= or the survival of his genetic material that is common to other individuals.= = Emotions are sometimes the enforcer -- the anger, indignation, or fear th= at inspires and compels us to "do the right thing" in spite of our logical analyses and competing motives. Because of effects on reproductive fitness, adults and their moral codes fall into line as tools for the benefit of children. There are other layers such as K/r models and complexity theory. K/r models anchor shifts in the moral behavior of any species to shifts in it= s environment. Both Complexity theory and K/r-selection models have commonalities with "gaia concepts" about the nature of life. A third contribution, the Barkley-Bronowski theory about neuropsychological Executive Functions, also has significant implications for understanding variations in the application of morality -- we can perhaps specify some components of Free Will and how it and morality might vary in predictable= ways between people. Complexity theory uses common principles for morality and for the reciprocal relations between life and nonlife. It is as if we study the= centrifuge tube before it is spun. Continuity through time entails resisting the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Maintenance of a steady sta= te depends upon repair. Both repair and growth demand reciprocity, exchang= es between units. Genes, psychological adaptations, emotions, and verbal morality manage reciprocity between humans just as other physical and chemical laws do between molecules. = Finally, we experience morality when we rely on friends, parents, and mat= es to reduce our erratic behavior. By providing rules and examples, moralit= y increases the degree of mutual influence between people. Planning, cooperation, encouragement and discouragement, and the formation of alliances stabilize erratic conduct. Verbal morality internalizes influences from our group, through oral or written codes and personal examples from other people, stabilizing our momentary choices. Thus, morality usually leads to fewer extreme choices, even in the absence of larger social groups. Consulting rules and memories varies response topography and intensity, perhaps resulting in a closer match between behavior choices and reinforcement probability. From: IN%"kckissan@wam.umd.edu" "Kelly Caithlin Kissane" 14-JUN-1998 08:30:23.38 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"listproc@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve" Subj: RE: Gator Sex and Complexity On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, James F. Brody wrote: > All of us balk somewhat at complex, human behavior as an expression of > genes. This feeling is perhaps one more objection to the "naturalization" > of humankind -- the sun no longer circles about us (Ptolemy), we obey > natural laws (Darwin), we have "animal" instincts (Freud), and we listen to > our heritage, whether lectured or inseminated. It's easy for social > learning fans to notice that alligator sex can be determined by how warm > the egg is before it hatches. Warm eggs become boys, cool ones girls. > And what's true in principle for gator gonads must also be true for our > manners. This statement is not nearly as simple as Jim Brody makes it sound. This phenomenon of temperature regulated sex determination is common among reptiles and fish. These animals, however, also have sex determining genes. Temperature plays a role, so does sex ratios, quality and abundance of food, etc. If this phenomenon was simple, we would expect to see mostly males in warm regions, and mostly females in colder regions. Conover and Van Voorhees (1991) manipulated temperatures in such an animal, the marine silverside. When they raised the temperature to 28 C, the fish produced offspring that were 80% male. Yet, after 8 generations, the fish returned to a 50/50 ratio. Fisher's sex ratio principles work most of the time, when they don't, Triver's parental investments and sex ratio principles seem to work. And for the record : I was supporting the natural laws and biology of humans as early as third grade. The nun in my 3rd grade class punished me because I told her she was wrong, that some animals *could* communicate, we just didn't know the language. Now we communicate with dolphins, primates, etc. In 7th grade, I was punished for challenging my science teacher, who was trying to tell me that humans are too smart to listen to "instinct", and I argued that humans still acted a lot like animals. Let see, this would have been 1974 - when did Sociobiology come out? Kelly C. Kissane From: IN%"kmorgan@wheatonma.edu" "Kathleen Morgan" 14-JUN-1998 11:04:03.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Info on Upcoming Conference at Michigan State Hi all, Can someone please send me again the info on the meeting coming up in East Lansing? I can't seem to find it in my cybermail. Thanks, --Kathy Morgan kmorgan@wheatonma.edu From: IN%"mvinci1@email.msn.com" "Mary M. Vinci" 14-JUN-1998 14:36:34.39 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ground squirrel bait It has become necessary that I trap ground squirrels nesting in my flower beds. My question is what do I use for bait. I am using live trap. I do not wish to kill or harm the ground squirrels in any way. Please help. From: IN%"lavleer@hotmail.com" "l.a. leer" 14-JUN-1998 17:49:32.46 To: IN%"mvinci1@email.msn.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: ground squirrel bait-what to use I recommend oatmeal flakes mixed with peanut butter. Use just as much peanut butter as will make the oatmeal stick together. This bait works extremely well for live trapping of small mammals. ---- Lee Ann >It has become necessary that I trap ground squirrels nesting in my flower >beds. My question is what do I use for bait. I am using live trap. I do not >wish to kill or harm the ground squirrels in any way. Please help. > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com" 15-JUN-1998 01:12:25.15 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com", IN%"listproc@sheffield.ac.uk" CC: Subj: RE: Gator Sex and Complexity On 6/14/98 Jim Brody writes: It's easy for social learning fans to notice that alligator sex can be determined by how warm the egg is before it hatches. Warm eggs become boys, cool ones girls. And what's true in principle for gator gonads must also be true for our manners. However, Complexity Theory (Kauffman, 1991, 1995) suggests that one- or two-gene effects, acting without crosstalk, will be unstable and more sensitive to environmental changes. The less the crosstalk, the more brittle the outcome. More than 3 shared interactions, in contrast, produces great stability of output. Multiple genes -- working in synchrony -- allow more consistent features, fewer digital ones, and a richer mix in which intensity of a trait's expression varies more often than the frequency of the trait itself. Human traits could be more resilient than gator sex ratios. -------------------------- Jim--compare the above with the following paragraphs from _Global Brain: the evolution of mass mind__ (John Wiley & Sons, 1999)(by, alas, me). I think you'll see Kaufman's principles in different words, and within additional empirical contexts: A central rule of large-scale organization goes like this: the greater the spryness of a massive enterprise, the more internal communication it takes to support the teamwork of the parts. For example, in all but the simplest plants and animals only 5% of DNA is dedicated to DNA's "real job," manufacturing proteins. The remaining 95% is preoccupied with organization and administration, supervising the maintenance of bodily procedures, or even merely interpreting the corporate rule book "printed" in a string of genes. In an effective learning machine, the connections between internal elements far outnumber windows to the outside world. Take the cerebral cortex, roughly 80% of whose nerves connect with each other, not with sensory input from the eyes or ears. No wonder in human society individuals spend most of their time communicating with each other, not exploring beasts and plants which could make an untraditional dish. This cabling for "bureaucratic maintenance" has a far greater impact on what we "see" and "hear" than most psychological researchers suspect. ---- notes M.J.C. Waller, personal communication, 5/96; M.J.C. Waller. "Organization Theory and the Origins of Consciousness." Journal of Social and Evolutionary Systems, 19(1): 17-30; T. Burns and G.M. Stalker. The Management of Innovation. London: Tavistock Publications, 1961: 92-93, 233-234. Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart. The Collapse of Chaos: Discovering Simplicity in a Complex World. New York: Viking, 1994: 73. Janos Szentagothai. "The 'Brain-Mind' Relation: A Pseudoproblem?" In Mindwaves: Thoughts on Intelligence, Identity and Consciousness. Edited by Colin Blakemore and Susan Greenfield, 330. Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1989; Rodney J. Douglas, Christof Koch, Misha Mahowald, Kevan A.C. Martin, Humbert H. Suarez. "Recurrent Excitation In Neocortical Circuits." Science, 18 August 1995: 981. Linnda R. Caporael. "SOCIALITY: COORDINATING BODIES, MINDS AND GROUPS." Psycoloquy. Downloaded from http://www.ai.univie.ac.at/cgi-bin/mfs/31/wachau/www/a rchives/Psycoloquy/1995.V6/0043.html?84#mfs, 95/6/01. ---------- Howard Bloom (founder: International Paleopsychology Project; member: New York Academy of Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, American Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and Evolution Society, European Sociobiological Society; board member: Epic of Evolution Society) International Paleopsychology Project 705 President Street Brooklyn, NY 11215 phone 718 622 2278 fax 718 398 2551 e-mail howard@paleopsych.org for two chapters from The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History, see www.bookworld.com/lucifer From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 15-JUN-1998 05:56:58.84 To: IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com" "INTERNET:HowlBloom@aol.com", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve" CC: IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve" Subj: RE: Gator Sex and Complexity Howard, Thanks! Will study your remarks ... I think I've drifting/navigating into the sam= e paths you're traveled but have to bumble through it. I generally fell t= o sleep in about 10 minutes over a book (and still can); Skinner saved my P= hD because he sanctioned the radical idea of doing some experiments before surveying literature. I can read, compare, focus, and analyze for 6-8 hours once I've done preliminary work. Other motivators are getting me angry (I love a persistent, low "heat" wh= en making a point) and doing something outrageous and a positive contributio= n. Paleo/Evolution does those things for me just as the July seminar will.= Gosh, it's been nearly 40 years since I came across a Szentogathai reference ... I once had to study drawings of the trigeminal nuclei in cats, Szentogathai was a key, early source for that anatomy. Of course, may be a different guy or different generations of similar genes (father-son). Hope that you're well ... I worry when you get too quiet. Jim From: IN%"kckissan@wam.umd.edu" "Kelly Caithlin Kissane" 15-JUN-1998 07:16:00.76 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com" "INTERNET:HowlBloom@aol.com", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBE Subj: Experimental design > Skinner saved my PhD because he sanctioned the radical idea of doing > some experiments before surveying literature. I can read, compare, > focus, and analyze for 6-8 hours once I've done preliminary work. > This design is radical?!? That's the way I do most of my experiments, in order to avoid bias. Kelly C. Kissane From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 15-JUN-1998 07:42:46.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Experimental design Dear All > > Skinner saved my PhD because he sanctioned the radical idea of doing > > some experiments before surveying literature. I can read, compare, > > focus, and analyze for 6-8 hours once I've done preliminary work. I couldn't help noticing, since this appeared under the heading 'Experimental design', that the sample size here is 1. To be sure that Skinner was the causative factor in the change described, I suppose we'd have to look at a larger number of his PhD students! Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 15-JUN-1998 09:40:22.26 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: virus warning!! Does anybody know if this is a real warning or whether it is the latest mutant of the fake "GoodTimes" virus that has bored us all so many times in the past? During the last barrage of these false warnings, it was pointed out that email alone cannot carry virusus, although email with attachments might have a virus in the attachment. Is this still true or have there been recent changes? Jeff Rushen >>> De Meester 12/06/ 04h42 >>> ---------- > From: Wim Declercq > To: De Meester ; PETERS@lmb001.rug.ac.be; GEERTVL@lmb001.rug.ac.be; Cecile Geuijen ; Patricia.Agostinis@med.kuleuven.ac.be; PETERVDA@lmb001.rug.ac.be; Johan Smitz ; Thierry De Decker ; annemie_vergote@dadeint > Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) FW: (Fwd) FW: virus warning!! > Date: vrijdag 12 juni 1998 12:17 > > Forwarded message: > From: "Peter Vandenabeele" > Organization: Laboratory of Molecular Biology > To: #users > Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:53:55 GMT+0100 > Subject: (Fwd) FW: (Fwd) FW: virus warning!! > > > >>Dear Friends and Colleagues > >>I have just received a warning via the Cancer Research Campaign of a > >>new and very nasty computer virus that comes via E mail. This is the > >>message I received: >>Subject: WARNING >> >> >>If you receive an email > >>titled "WIN A HOLIDAY" DO NOT open it. >>It will erase everything on > >>your hard drive. Forward this letter out >>to as many people as you > >>can. This is a new, very malicious virus >>and not many people know > >>about it. This information was announced >>yesterday morning from > >>Microsoft; please share it with everyone that >>might access the > >>internet. Once again, pass this along to everyone >>in your address > >>book so that this may be stopped. > >> > >> > >> > >>Dept. of Medical Microbiology L4-P > >>Leiden University Medical Center > >>P.O. Box 9600 > >>2300 RC Leiden > >>Tel. + 31 71 5 263582 > >>Fax + 31 71 5 248148 > >>Email Dijkshoorn@Rullf2.Medfac.LeidenUniv.NL > >> > > > > > ********************************************************** > Dr. Danielle Janssens > Curator > BCCM/LMG Culture Collection > University Gent - Lab. Microbiology > K.L. Ledeganckstraat 35 > B-9000 Gent > Belgium > Phone +32-9-2645108 > Fax +32-9-2645346 > URL : http://www.belspo.be/bccm/lmg.htm > *********************************************************** > Wim Declercq, Phd > Laboratory of Molecular Biology > Flanders Interuniversity Institute for Biotechnology > University Ghent > K.L.Ledeganckstraat 35 > 9000 Ghent > tel: 09/2645144 > fax: 09/2645348 > E-mail: Wimdc@lmb1.rug.ac.be From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 15-JUN-1998 15:03:52.81 To: IN%"kckissan@wam.umd.edu" "Kelly Caithlin Kissane" CC: IN%"howlbloom@aol.com" "Howard Bloom", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: Experimental design Message text written by Kelly Caithlin Kissane >This design is radical?!? That's the way I do most of my experiments, in order to avoid bias. < Oh gosh. Psych people were trained early to "survey the literature" to define relevant questions and the ONE revealing study that would be meaningful even with a negative result. TOTAL betrayal of all manner of things but sure washed out a lot of nonobsessives and kept things within traditional belief. It was also a handy way to coerce grad students into= extending the advisor's research because all relevant articles were easil= y available as was equipment and clerical help. This was also pre-calculat= or days unless you had a Monroe that routinely ground itself to helplessness= everytime it did an ANOVA. Also, nothing existed unless it passed a sta= t test. The universe viewed through RA Fisher and Guilford or Ghiselli. Eaagh! Yes, I can still get mad! Jim From: IN%"kckissan@wam.umd.edu" "Kelly Caithlin Kissane" 15-JUN-1998 15:18:57.02 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"howlbloom@aol.com" "Howard Bloom", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Experimental design Also, nothing existed unless it passed a stat test. The universe viewed through RA Fisher and Guilford or Ghiselli. This factor is still chiseled in marble among biologists. Nothing is pertinent unless a stat test has been run. Not even my molecular trees have meaning without stats. Kelly C. Kissane From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 15-JUN-1998 21:41:13.63 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve" CC: Subj: Free Will: A Psychological Adaptation Western civilization is filled with oppositional, competitive people; indeed, that temperament may have been essential to its creation. Such people liked being "determined" but not in two senses. Persistence, overcoming obstacles, defeating barriers are virtues. (They are also associated with liveliness, needing less sleep, and heightened reproducti= ve activity, all commonly labeled as "mania.") Being determined has a secon= d meaning, that of being confined, rule directed, and the outcome of prior events. Determined people don't care for the second definition. We are a technically sophisticated culture but refuse to see ourselves as= outcomes of physical principles. Irv Silverman (HBES list_serve, 6/15/9= 8) remarked that Catholicism lately recognizes evolution but retains "Free Will." Such compartmented thinking has been a clue to the existence of psychological adaptations as in the case of cheater detectors and the varied dilemmas associated with mating. There should be little surprise= in considering Free Will as a candidate for status as a psychological adaptation, that the survival benefits of belief in Free Will far outweig= h the apathy and hopelessness that may accompany other, more fatalistic beliefs. Williams (1966) listed several traits of adaptations. There is variability in their phenotypic expression, they have a heritable basis, their operation is associated with differential survival and reproductive= outcomes, comparable systems -- even with different foundations -- exist = in other species in order to meet comparable goals. There are likely sever= al modules that work as an integrated unit, as defined by Barkley (1997). To the extent that Free Will has properties of a psychological adaptation= , then telling someone that they don't have it is equivalent to instructing= a teenaged male not to think of women. Likewise, we might expect Free Will= to support other psychological adaptations, perhaps those same adaptation= s that are most valued by determined people. Free Will, per "common sense= " likely becomes the largest consideration in matters of personal movement,= acquisition of resources, and choice of a mate. It would also be a facto= r in hierarchic disputes and negotiations. Free Will denotes an ultimate sort of power, that of taking action without restraint from the forces th= at glue the rest of nature together.