From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 15-JUN-2000 10:40:37.79 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology List (E-mail) '" CC: Subj: RE: Clomicalm research articles - rant alert ----- Original Message ----- From: Garner, Joseph P. Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 6:56 PM > There is a welfare/ethical issue here too. If the drug works simply by > supressing behaviour then only the symptom is "cured" not the cause, thus > the animal may still be suffering inside, but simply not acting on this > experience. > > For those of you interested, i have a review paper on this subject > submitted. I will keep anyone interested posted as that progresses. yes please. and good for you, doing this work. happy vac. margory From: IN%"filip.mulkens@agr.kuleuven.ac.be" 15-JUN-2000 13:46:31.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Change of Address / Congresses on Applied Ethology & Farm Anima Forwarded to: smtp[applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca] cc: Comments by: Filip Mulkens@ZTC@AGR Comments: -------------------------- [Original Message] ------------------------- Dear All Please note my new adress. Furthermore, I' m looking for all the information about congresses on the zootechnical, economical and ethical aspects of Farm Animal Welfare (especially concerning housing, transportation, handling (castration,...), slaughtering, ...) that were held or will be held during the period 1997-2001. More specifically, we're interested in the congress programs and the name(s) of the organizers of these congresses. Does anybody know where to find this information? (Maybe somewhere on the Internet?). Thank you very much in advance. Dr. Filip Mulkens, DVM Proefdierencentrum K.U.Leuven Herestraat 49 B-3000 Leuven Belgium Tel: +32-16-34 62 38 Fax: +32-16-34 62 41 E-mail: filip.mulkens@pfd.kuleuven.ac.be From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 15-JUN-2000 16:19:08.58 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (no subject) To applied ethology listserv From Marlene Halverson June 15, 2000 Hello. I'm new to writing to the listserv although I read the archives pretty regularly. I and my sister Diane have been long-time animal welfare activists and I work as a consultant to various groups. Please excuse this if it is a double posting of Don Broom's remarks. For the group's interest, there follows an obituary for Ruth Harrison, author of the 1964 book Animal Machines: The New Factory Farming Industry, a prescient look at the impacts of the (then) emerging factory farming industry. I felt privileged to have known Ruth Harrison and to have had the opportunity to spend several days with her at her home in London shortly before her death. Ruth Harrison was not only a person of sterling intellect, but a warm and courageous and caring one. As her obituary notes, she worked for human as well as farm animal welfare. Ruth gave me and my sister her working library, books from which we will arrange to have placed in a Ruth Harrison memorial collection at the library of Carleton College in Northfield, Minnesota, so they will be available to scholars at Carleton and elsewhere, through interlibrary loans, for further work on farm animal welfare and sustainable agriculture. The obituary, composed by Dr. Donald Broom, follows: Ruth Harrison 1920 - 2000 (died 13th June 2000, London) Farm animals are not machines. Ruth Harrison's book "Animal Machines: The New Factory Farming Industry" burst upon the agricultural world in 1964 pointing out to the public and governments that farm animals were now being regarded by many in the industry merely as mechanisms that led to useful production and profit. Ruth said about the book that she "thought that the public should know both of the suffering caused to farm animals and the hazards to the consumer in some of the new systems of keeping livestock." The systems to which she referred, which were then relatively new to most farmers, included battery cages for hens, small crates for veal calves and stalls or tethers for pregnant and farrowing sows. In addition, Ruth Harrison wrote about the efforts being made in breeding, feeding and housing to obtain ever greater production at whatever cost to the animals and the use of farm operations such as castration, tail-docking, beak-trimming and de-horning. As a result of this book, the U.K. Ministry of Agriculture set up a Technical Committee chaired by Professor F.W.R. Brambell. The Brambell Committee, which included Ruth Harrison, reported in 1965 and a new law on farm animal welfare The Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act was passed in 1968. The Minister of Agriculture appointed an independent committee, the Farm Animal Welfare Advisory Committee, later to become the Farm Animal Welfare Council, to provide advice on such matters. Ruth Harrison served on these until she was 70. At an international level, "Animal Machines" which was published in seven countries, was an inspiration for the European Convention for the Protection of Animals Kept for Farming Purposes, which was set up by the Council of Europe in 1976, and for legislation on the welfare of farm animals in many countries. Ruth Harrison was born in London in 1920 and read English at London University, spending part of her university career in Cambridge because her college moved there during the war. She was a member of the Society of Friends (Quakers) and worked during the war in the Friends' Ambulance Unit. At the end of the war she was part of a group that worked with displaced persons in Schleswig Holstein and in Bochum in Germany. After her return she attended the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, obtained a University Diploma, and directed productions. She worked for a firm of architects and, in 1954, married Dex Harrison who was to become a distinguished architect. They had two children, Jonathan and Jane. With this non-scientific background, Ruth's considerable ability to understand and report lucidly on scientific papers was most impressive. At the Farm Animal Welfare Council in the U.K. and at the Standing Committee of the Convention on the Protection of Animals Kept for Farming Purposes in Strasbourg's Palais de l'Europe, Ruth Harrison would present the key information from scientific studies of animal welfare that government officials and other committee members had often not read, or not understood. She was charming to all and never hostile to the farming industry in general, only to those practices that she thought unjust. Ruth Harrison served as a Director or Council Member of the Conservation Society, Soil Association, Animal Defence Society, R.S.P.C.A., European Conference Group for the Protection of Farm Animals, Church of England's Environmental Reference Panel, Quaker Concern for Animal Welfare, and World Society for the Protection of Animals. She was founder and chairman of the Farm Animal Care Trust which, since 1967, has been one of the most important charities funding small conferences and farm animal welfare research projects, for example on the pig-family pen system, alternatives to veal crates, gas-stunning of animals, group-farrowing of pigs and the economics of changing to farm systems with better welfare. Within the limits of its slender finances, the group also gave practical support to farmers prepared to try free-range farming. She was awarded the R.S.P.C.A's Richard Martin Award, the Eurogroup Medal and an OBE in the Queen's Honours list. She gave many invited lectures including the Hume lecture for the Universities Federation for Animal Welfare and contributed chapters to books, journals, house magazines, and newspapers worldwide. Ruth will be missed by her family and by the many farmers, animal welfare scientists, government staff, and animal protection society members with whom she worked. From: IN%"Jan.Ladewig@ihh.kvl.dk" "Jan Ladewig" 16-JUN-2000 07:41:23.93 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Permanent position --Boundary_(ID_YwaXOeLOxITx41iGUfizRQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable A permanent (tenured) position at the associate professor level is = available at the Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University at Copenhagen= , Denmark. For details check the attached file, our home page http://www.kvl.dk/news/j= obs/research/internat/sf31oplektoreng.htm=20 or me Best regards Jan Ladewig --Boundary_(ID_YwaXOeLOxITx41iGUfizRQ) Content-type: text/html Content-disposition: attachment; filename="assocprof.htm" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 PCEtLVRJVExFOiBBc3NvY2lhdGUgUHJvZmVzc29yIG9mIEV0aG9sb2d5LS0+DQo8IS0tU1RBUlRf REFURTogICAgICAgIDctNi0yMDAwLS0+DQo8IS0tRVhQSVJZX0RBVEU6ICAgICAgMTQtOC0yMDAw LS0+DQo8SFRNTD4NCjxIRUFEPg0KICA8VElUTEU+QXNzb2NpYXRlIFByb2Zlc3NvciBvZiBFdGhv bG9neTwvVElUTEU+DQo8L0hFQUQ+DQo8Qk9EWSBCR0NPTE9SPSIjZmZjYzMzIiBMSU5LPSIjMDAx MDczIiBWTElOSz0iIzAwMDAwMCIgQkFDS0dST1VORD0iQkFHR1IxLkdJRiI+DQo8UD4NCjxJTUcg QUxJR049IkJPVFRPTSIgV0lEVEg9IjE1NCIgSEVJR0hUPSIzOSIgTkFUVVJBTFNJWkVGTEFHPSAi MyIgU1JDPSJrdmxsb2dvLmdpZiI+DQo8QkxPQ0tRVU9URT4NCiAgPEJMT0NLUVVPVEU+DQogICAg PEI+PEZPTlQgU0laRT0rMj5MPC9GT05UPkVESUdFIFNUSUxMSU5HRVI8L0I+PEJSPg0KICAgIDxJ TUcgTkFUVVJBTFNJWkVGTEFHPSIwIiBIRUlHSFQ9IjIiIFdJRFRIPSI0MzAiIEFMSUdOPSJCT1RU 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17-JUN-2000 03:25:07.94 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: spectacled bear hello, I'm a french student, working on a couple of spectacled bear at the Doué zoo in France; I'm looking for an ethogram specified on spectacled bear, I've got plenty of articles about bears, but I would like to know if someone have informations about this species, that I haven't! thanks a lot stéphanie Bidaux DESS Ethologie Appliquée / Université de Paris XIII ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"matchdog@chello.nl" "Bianca Uittenbogaard" 17-JUN-2000 04:36:26.82 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" CC: Subj: RE: Clomicalm research articles - rant alert Hi D.B., You may be as you write: "old and feeble" (somehow I doubt that...) But I do believe *I* need glasses! I was re-reading some mail and for the first time noticed that I reacted to a post of you without reading properly what you had written. You wrote: >> Without B.M. therapy to go with the drugs, the prognosis for most such problems is likely to be poor. Upon which I reacted with: I disagree.<> I have worked without any medical aid for a long time and had good results then as well, it just took longer. As I now noticed I read the line as if it said without drugs the prognosis for these cases (using B.M. therapy) is likely to be poor. I do hope you will forgive me for my mistake. The careful readers perhaps noticed it before... English is my second language and I sent that mail at 3 a.m.! Reading your text properly my answer of course is very different! I couldn't agree with you more - in case of using drugs like Clomicalm - and am glad you state this so clearly. It bothers me as well that some vets prescribe these medications without referring the client to a behavioural therapist. HOWEVER: My experiences with the effects of Bach Flower Remedies are sometimes different, to an extent that they surprise even me. The following text is a translation from an interview I gave to a national magazine for cat owners. "I treated a Great Dane (with flower remedies) a while ago, who - after experiencing a traumatic event - had developed a growing fear for noise. This dog was so terrified for the vacuum cleaner that he wanted to be hidden in a closet to feel safe every time his owner wanted to clean the carpet. (This problem had existed for over a year.) The same day the owner had picked up the remedy, six hours after administering the first dosage, she phoned me to tell me that the dog had not fled the room when she started vacuum cleaning, but instead had slept through the whole event." As a reaction to the statement that these remedies find their biggest value in a placebo effect I said the following: "Sometimes an owner - because he or she looks at the animal differently - will notice things that went unnoticed before, and in some cases this alone will do to get a more positive view of the animal. This of course influences the behaviour of the animal and the bond between animal and owner in a positive way. One could say this to be the positive result of a possible placebo effect. If however an animal shows improvement as quickly as this Great Dane, even such a statement won't stand." I do hope you will accept my apologies and am glad to see that we do not differ from opinion after all. Respectfully, Bianca Bianca Uittenbogaard www.listen.to/click matchdog@chello.nl Success is a journey, not a destination From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 17-JUN-2000 16:57:22.36 To: IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Clomicalm research articles - rant alert On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:33:50 -0700 "Garner, Joseph P." writes: > Hi there, > > > D.B. Cameron writes: > >I did not comment before, but if all the replies were from > antidruggies, > >please let me make my usual comments about the use of psychoactive > drugs > >for problem-behavior cases. In my experience: > > > - The target use for drugs in these cases is to AID the B.M. > therapy. > >This most often is a TEMPORARY period during which the patient > learns a > >new way to think and feel. There are some behavior problems that > must > >have drugs permanently, but these are the exceptions. > > > > > In effect, is this a turf problem? > > thanks for your reply. don't get me wrong. I am not some rabid > "anti-druggie", nor is there a turf issue, as i am a researcher with > zero > vested interest. My only motivation is to find the best way to treat > animals > suffering from these kinds of problems. (snip) > I think there > are a number of very important issue to be properly debated here, > which are > not currently so. This in large part due to the extremely vocal > group of > researchers engaged in pro-psychoactive work. Any voice of dissent > is simly > drowned out or ignored. I am merely encouraging people to take a > critical > eye to this work, and ask themselves whether they are really > convinced that > the data is out there. I do not think that it is. > > I agree with a lot of what you say, but you must critically separate > the > rhetoric from the facts. > > YES i have little issue with the idea of using psychoactive drugs as > temporary measure to facilitate successful bheaviour therapy. and > YES > everyone pays lip-service to this idea. BUT if you actually read the > clinical literature on compulsive disorder for instance, you will > see that > only 10%-20% of studies (ballpark) actually attempt concomitant > behaviour > therapy. and virtually none sucessfully wean the animals off the > drugs used. > so, in the real world, this rarely happens. Not being in the academic world, I am sure I read far fewer studies than you do, but those that I do see typically encourage associated B.M. therapy. Also, having been one of the field trial practitioners who did the final field studies on Clamicalm and its effect on separation anx. let me assure you that at least on this study elaborate measures were taken to assure an objective, double-blinded, placebo-controled program. And this field trial included specific and fairly extensive use of B.M. techniques in association with the use of the drug for these very tightly selected S.A. cases. I was also a practice in this study that the FDA chose to examine after the study and before the release of Clamicalm for the profession. Happily, the examiner was apparently satisfied with the technical aspects of the study as this in-depth interview proved to be acceptable as a positive representation of the study. > > > - Without B.M. therapy to go with the drugs, the prognosis for > most > >such problems is likely to be poor. > > I take real issue with the idea that most behaviour problems are > refractive > unless drug therapy is used. Please reread my statement. I believe that you will find that the essence of my statement is that concurrent B.M. therapy is very important for therapeutic success, and that using the drugs alone makes for a poor prognosis. There are plenty of examples in > separation > anxiety of extremely high response rates to behavioural modification > alone > (e.g. 82% in king et al's study). The problem with B.M. Tx of SA and like problems is twofold: Time and motivation. Specifically, if the owner is sufficiently motivated to spend large amounts of time learning a complicated, highly self disciplined BM program and stick with it for extended periods, high success rates are not terribly surprising. But out in the trenches where I work, clients have real lives (kids, jobs, mortgages, headaches, bad backs, etc.) and ON AVERAGE are not intensely motivated and are not willing to make the time to fully understand the program much less follow it for extended periods in the face of limited to no progress in the beginning. Thus the very quick response to the drug (a few days) not only helps the patient, it reinforces the owner to continue the BM program. As to casually using the drug alone because it is an easy "magic bullet", my trench experience is that very few owners, even some very well to do ones, are willing and/or able to spend that kind of money on their pet on an indifinite basis. Further, many owners, like some tharapists, are loath to "give an animal DRUGS" unless they REALLY need them and a few in my experience, have chosen "death before dishonor" (euthanasia before giving drugs). most of the "evidence" for > improved > efficacy of combined therapy is based on open-label, unblinded, > non-placebo > controlled studies. These tell us nothing about what would have > happened if > the animal was on placebo. Given the role of the owener-pet > interaction in > separation anxiety, and the obvious and marked changes in owner > behaviour > when they think their animal is on a magic-bullet drug, and the fact > that > most of these studies ask the owner to rate improvement... well, > really they > tell us next to nothing. If "most" tell you this, what do the others that do proper studies tell you? > > > - B.M. therapy alone is not perfectly effective. Especially > anxiety > >problems are difficult to treat without drugs; part of the problem > being > >that the owners see so little progress after such major effort that > they > >just give up. The drugs ALLOW the patient to learn the B.M way. > And, by > >the way, being a pragmatist, I care little about HOW the drugs > work, as > >long as they ARE effective and safe. > > Similarly, i think that pragmatism is admirable when trying to treat > intractable and distressing problems, but you must remember that you > are > prescribing extra-label drugs Clamicalm (clomipramine) is specifically labeled for the treatment of SA. That it is useful for treating other behavior problems is highly likely. And if practitioners were limited to on lable use of all drugs huge amounts of effective therapy programs would be precluded. (snip) , but you must ask yourself "why am i > treating this > animal?" Are you treating it to satisfy the cosmetic and aesthetic > demands > of the owner, or are you treating it out of concern for the animal > itself? I > think most veterinarians are veterinarians so that they can improve > the > lives of animals. As such preventing the behaviour with behaviour > supressing > drugs is like preventing the behaviour by physical restraint or > surgery. It > cosmetically deals with the problem, but it does not get to the > cause. the > animal still suffers, and so ethically the treatment is worthless. You seem to suggest that specifically acting psychoactive drugs are the equivalent of barbiturates or alcohol. I find your analogy and suppositions unsupportable. > > > - Properly done, there are remarkably few downsides to using > these > >drugs. > > Apart from the profound range of somatic and psychological effects, > and high > toxicity of TCAs. My understanding and experience support quite the opposite. TCA's are very useful because they are so relatively innocuous. They are supposed to contribute to cardiac arrythmias, but but this is taken from human clinical reports and is not supported, to my knowledge, by specific toxicity studies in dogs. I have read a number of reviews (naming no names) > in the > veterinary literature which claim that drugs like naloxone, > clomipramine or > fluoxetine have "few side effects". This is simply not true. A quick > glance > through even the most basic neuropsychopharmacology textbook will > tell you > otherwise. However, they do have limited side effects in terms of > somatic > symptoms compared to many other drugs, BUT they have profound > effects on > behaviour and internal experience in humans. FURTHERMORE and this is > really > important, psychological side effects are far more common in control > (i.e. > asymptomatic) individuals than symptomatic patients... including > INDUCING > anxiety and mania. Thus it is critical not to throw SSRIs in > particular at > every possible case, but to only treat those individuals which are > actually > presenting symptoms which warrant the drug. I suspect that any professional using any drug prescribes a drug because he/she believes its use is warrented. That is, I suspect that not too much penicillin is "thrown at" patients with warts. > ^ ^ D. B. Cameron, DVM Animal Behavior Clinic < \ / > ! ! "Always remember YOU are unique . . . . . .. just like everyone else." Anonymous From: IN%"Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac.be" "Marc Vandenheede" 19-JUN-2000 03:53:23.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: costs of welfare reduction (bis) Hello everybody, I have sent you this message (below) some days ago. Despite the interest of= some of you asking me to forward the informations to the rest of the list,= I don't have receive any answer. Maybe is this question now still without= any answer? ;) Wait and see ... Sincerely yours, Marc >I was contacted by a veterinarian asking me some informations about the= costs of welfare reduction. He is actually confronted with the following= problem. A farm is situated near a big working area, and these works will= modify the living conditions of the animals (cattle). The farmer would thus= like to know if and how he could be paid for the welfare reduction related= to these works. Is anybody already confronted with such a situation? I am thus searching for= personal experience but also for eventual papers relating costs of animal= welfare reduction. Thank you, Marc>
ffff,0000,0000Marc Vandenheede Universit=E9 de Li=E8ge Facult=E9 de M=E9decine V=E9t=E9rinaire Service d'Hygi=E8ne et Bioclimatologie (Ethologie appliqu=E9e aux animaux domestiques) Bd de Colonster, B=E2t. B43 4000 Li=E8ge Belgium t=E9l.: 32/(0)4/366.41.48 fax.: 32/(0)4/366.41.22 0000,0000,ffffemail: Marc.Vandenheede@ulg.ac.be
From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 19-JUN-2000 04:35:12.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: costs of welfare reduction (bis) Marc > >I was contacted by a veterinarian asking me some informations > about the costs of welfare reduction. He is actually confronted with > the following problem. A farm is situated near a big working area, > and these works will modify the living conditions of the animals > (cattle). The farmer would thus like to know if and how he could be > paid for the welfare reduction related to these works. > Is anybody already confronted with such a situation? I am thus > searching for personal experience but also for eventual papers > relating costs of animal welfare reduction. A quick reaction - maybe this requires more thought - is that this is a strange and unreasonable request. If there are reductions in production, of course the farmer will expect compensation. And maybe there will be reductions in both welfare and production. But if there are reductions in welfare that are not accompanied by reductions in production, why should the farmer expect to be paid? It could even be argued that the ANIMALS should be paid - e.g. given some benefit that they wouldn't otherwise have received to compensate them for the reduction in certain aspects of their welfare. It could (and should) also be argued that any such reductions in welfare are a reason why the work should not go ahead, or should be modified to take these problems into account. But why should the farmer get money? Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies in Agriculture & Resource Economics Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh West Mains Road Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu" "Garner, Joseph P." 19-JUN-2000 06:10:00.98 To: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "'D. B. Cameron '", IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu" "Garner, Joseph P." CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca '" Subj: RE: Clomicalm research articles - rant alert Hi there, thanks for your reply... I'm on holiday right now, so I'll pay your thoughts th proper attention when i get back! cheers Joe -----Original Message----- From: D. B. Cameron To: JPGarner@ucdavis.edu Cc: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: 17/06/00 15:36 Subject: Re: Clomicalm research articles - rant alert On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:33:50 -0700 "Garner, Joseph P." writes: > Hi there, > > > D.B. Cameron writes: > >I did not comment before, but if all the replies were from > antidruggies, > >please let me make my usual comments about the use of psychoactive > drugs > >for problem-behavior cases. In my experience: > > > - The target use for drugs in these cases is to AID the B.M. > therapy. > >This most often is a TEMPORARY period during which the patient > learns a > >new way to think and feel. There are some behavior problems that > must > >have drugs permanently, but these are the exceptions. > > > > > In effect, is this a turf problem? > > thanks for your reply. don't get me wrong. I am not some rabid > "anti-druggie", nor is there a turf issue, as i am a researcher with > zero > vested interest. My only motivation is to find the best way to treat > animals > suffering from these kinds of problems. (snip) > I think there > are a number of very important issue to be properly debated here, > which are > not currently so. This in large part due to the extremely vocal > group of > researchers engaged in pro-psychoactive work. Any voice of dissent > is simly > drowned out or ignored. I am merely encouraging people to take a > critical > eye to this work, and ask themselves whether they are really > convinced that > the data is out there. I do not think that it is. > > I agree with a lot of what you say, but you must critically separate > the > rhetoric from the facts. > > YES i have little issue with the idea of using psychoactive drugs as > temporary measure to facilitate successful bheaviour therapy. and > YES > everyone pays lip-service to this idea. BUT if you actually read the > clinical literature on compulsive disorder for instance, you will > see that > only 10%-20% of studies (ballpark) actually attempt concomitant > behaviour > therapy. and virtually none sucessfully wean the animals off the > drugs used. > so, in the real world, this rarely happens. Not being in the academic world, I am sure I read far fewer studies than you do, but those that I do see typically encourage associated B.M. therapy. Also, having been one of the field trial practitioners who did the final field studies on Clamicalm and its effect on separation anx. let me assure you that at least on this study elaborate measures were taken to assure an objective, double-blinded, placebo-controled program. And this field trial included specific and fairly extensive use of B.M. techniques in association with the use of the drug for these very tightly selected S.A. cases. I was also a practice in this study that the FDA chose to examine after the study and before the release of Clamicalm for the profession. Happily, the examiner was apparently satisfied with the technical aspects of the study as this in-depth interview proved to be acceptable as a positive representation of the study. > > > - Without B.M. therapy to go with the drugs, the prognosis for > most > >such problems is likely to be poor. > > I take real issue with the idea that most behaviour problems are > refractive > unless drug therapy is used. Please reread my statement. I believe that you will find that the essence of my statement is that concurrent B.M. therapy is very important for therapeutic success, and that using the drugs alone makes for a poor prognosis. There are plenty of examples in > separation > anxiety of extremely high response rates to behavioural modification > alone > (e.g. 82% in king et al's study). The problem with B.M. Tx of SA and like problems is twofold: Time and motivation. Specifically, if the owner is sufficiently motivated to spend large amounts of time learning a complicated, highly self disciplined BM program and stick with it for extended periods, high success rates are not terribly surprising. But out in the trenches where I work, clients have real lives (kids, jobs, mortgages, headaches, bad backs, etc.) and ON AVERAGE are not intensely motivated and are not willing to make the time to fully understand the program much less follow it for extended periods in the face of limited to no progress in the beginning. Thus the very quick response to the drug (a few days) not only helps the patient, it reinforces the owner to continue the BM program. As to casually using the drug alone because it is an easy "magic bullet", my trench experience is that very few owners, even some very well to do ones, are willing and/or able to spend that kind of money on their pet on an indifinite basis. Further, many owners, like some tharapists, are loath to "give an animal DRUGS" unless they REALLY need them and a few in my experience, have chosen "death before dishonor" (euthanasia before giving drugs). most of the "evidence" for > improved > efficacy of combined therapy is based on open-label, unblinded, > non-placebo > controlled studies. These tell us nothing about what would have > happened if > the animal was on placebo. Given the role of the owener-pet > interaction in > separation anxiety, and the obvious and marked changes in owner > behaviour > when they think their animal is on a magic-bullet drug, and the fact > that > most of these studies ask the owner to rate improvement... well, > really they > tell us next to nothing. If "most" tell you this, what do the others that do proper studies tell you? > > > - B.M. therapy alone is not perfectly effective. Especially > anxiety > >problems are difficult to treat without drugs; part of the problem > being > >that the owners see so little progress after such major effort that > they > >just give up. The drugs ALLOW the patient to learn the B.M way. > And, by > >the way, being a pragmatist, I care little about HOW the drugs > work, as > >long as they ARE effective and safe. > > Similarly, i think that pragmatism is admirable when trying to treat > intractable and distressing problems, but you must remember that you > are > prescribing extra-label drugs Clamicalm (clomipramine) is specifically labeled for the treatment of SA. That it is useful for treating other behavior problems is highly likely. And if practitioners were limited to on lable use of all drugs huge amounts of effective therapy programs would be precluded. (snip) , but you must ask yourself "why am i > treating this > animal?" Are you treating it to satisfy the cosmetic and aesthetic > demands > of the owner, or are you treating it out of concern for the animal > itself? I > think most veterinarians are veterinarians so that they can improve > the > lives of animals. As such preventing the behaviour with behaviour > supressing > drugs is like preventing the behaviour by physical restraint or > surgery. It > cosmetically deals with the problem, but it does not get to the > cause. the > animal still suffers, and so ethically the treatment is worthless. You seem to suggest that specifically acting psychoactive drugs are the equivalent of barbiturates or alcohol. I find your analogy and suppositions unsupportable. > > > - Properly done, there are remarkably few downsides to using > these > >drugs. > > Apart from the profound range of somatic and psychological effects, > and high > toxicity of TCAs. My understanding and experience support quite the opposite. TCA's are very useful because they are so relatively innocuous. They are supposed to contribute to cardiac arrythmias, but but this is taken from human clinical reports and is not supported, to my knowledge, by specific toxicity studies in dogs. I have read a number of reviews (naming no names) > in the > veterinary literature which claim that drugs like naloxone, > clomipramine or > fluoxetine have "few side effects". This is simply not true. A quick > glance > through even the most basic neuropsychopharmacology textbook will > tell you > otherwise. However, they do have limited side effects in terms of > somatic > symptoms compared to many other drugs, BUT they have profound > effects on > behaviour and internal experience in humans. FURTHERMORE and this is > really > important, psychological side effects are far more common in control > (i.e. > asymptomatic) individuals than symptomatic patients... including > INDUCING > anxiety and mania. Thus it is critical not to throw SSRIs in > particular at > every possible case, but to only treat those individuals which are > actually > presenting symptoms which warrant the drug. I suspect that any professional using any drug prescribes a drug because he/she believes its use is warrented. That is, I suspect that not too much penicillin is "thrown at" patients with warts. > ^ ^ D. B. Cameron, DVM Animal Behavior Clinic < \ / > ! ! "Always remember YOU are unique . . . . . .. just like everyone else." Anonymous From: IN%"Claude.Beata@wanadoo.fr" 19-JUN-2000 06:41:04.69 To: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" CC: IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Clomicalm research articles - rant alert Hi, I was just wondering if my first message was sent on the list or not ? I' m worrying : maybe my English was not understandable, or what I said was so foolish for most people ? The silence sounds terrible… Anyway, I'm still enjoying this discussion about drug topic and I agree with D.B Cameron about the few side effects of clomipramine. Pr Pouchelon from Maisons-Alfort (Paris) Veterinary School made trials showing that the cardio toxic effect well known in humans is not founded in dogs. More, instead of bradycardy, you can have opposite effects. Kidneys eliminate clomipramine in human being but liver does it in dogs. The anticholinergic effect is very strong in human and in cats (Be careful with dosis) but not in dogs. Knowing better the drugs allow us to use them in a very appropriate way. Ans everybody working in this fiels relies only on double-bind, placebo controlled study. I don't know how it is in other countries but in France, only vets are allowed to prescribe drugs. And I think that vets have a great job to do explaining to owners all the benefit the dog can have with a clever drug therapy bounded with a behavior therapy (even in human medicine, it has been shown that together, they are more efficient). And vets have to explain it to their others partners (non-vets behaviourists, trainers,…). I hope you 'll tell me what you think about this. Regards Claude Beata DVM Behaviorist certifed by French Veterinary Schools From: IN%"matchdog@chello.nl" "Bianca Uittenbogaard" 19-JUN-2000 08:19:19.14 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Clomicalm research articles - rant alert This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_YLOJ9FVmrzoWU7nstHwODQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello Claude, I received your mail to the list just fine.=20 you wrote: >>In aggressiveness problems, if you don't use drugs to decrease = dramatically the risk to be bitten, how can you manage people's fear ? =20 By educating them, by reducing the risks through behavioural management, = by using facilities like lines, crates, muzzles etc. Not necessarily by = using medication. >>When you have seen the difference between treating a really hyperactive dog with and without drug, you can never say again that drugs are unuseful. I wouldn't say that drugs aren't useful. Besides, this discussion must = have been on the list several times before my time, but I've seen the = most dramatic changes in hyperactive dogs by changing their diets. = Sometimes even overnight. =20 Respectfully, =20 Bianca Bianca Uittenbogaard www.listen.to/click matchdog@chello.nl Success is a journey, not a destination --Boundary_(ID_YLOJ9FVmrzoWU7nstHwODQ) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Claude,
 
I received your mail to the list just = fine.=20
 
you wrote:
>>In aggressiveness problems, if = you don't=20 use drugs to decrease dramatically
the risk to be bitten, how can you = manage=20 people's fear ?
 
By educating them, by reducing the = risks through=20 behavioural management, by using facilities like lines, crates, muzzles = etc. Not=20 necessarily by using medication.

>>When you have seen the=20 difference
between treating a really hyperactive dog with and without = drug,=20 you can
never say again that drugs are unuseful.

I wouldn't = say that=20 drugs aren't useful. Besides, this discussion must have been on the list = several=20 times before my time, but I've seen the most dramatic changes in = hyperactive=20 dogs by changing their diets. Sometimes even overnight.
 
Respectfully,
 
Bianca
 
Bianca Uittenbogaard
 
www.listen.to/click
matchdog@chello.nl
 
Success is a journey, not a = destination
--Boundary_(ID_YLOJ9FVmrzoWU7nstHwODQ)-- From: IN%"Claude.Beata@wanadoo.fr" 20-JUN-2000 01:39:21.95 To: IN%"matchdog@chello.nl" "Bianca Uittenbogaard" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Clomicalm research articles - rant alert --Boundary_(ID_bxNSVayk/QloVzQVTp3pYA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Bianca Uittenbogaard wrote: > Hello Claude, I received your mail to the list just fine. you > wrote:>>In aggressiveness problems, if you don't use drugs to decrease > dramatically > the risk to be bitten, how can you manage people's fear ? By educating > them, by reducing the risks through behavioural management, by using > facilities like lines, crates, muzzles etc. Not necessarily by using > medication. As a vet , my wish is to treat the dog. I'm not sure at all that using crates or line is not going to worsen dog's anxiety and for sure it enhances irritative aggression. If I want , at first, to treat the dog, I don't want people to be bitten so I have to find a way to decrease at the same time anxiety and aggressiveness in the dog and to allow owners to feel more secure.Learning family therapy, we can see that family systems can be totally blocked by fear and many times, when they feel this they can't learn. For me, to use drug therapy is far less violent than to use crates, lines and so on. > >>When you have seen the difference > between treating a really hyperactive dog with and without drug, you > can > never say again that drugs are unuseful. > > I wouldn't say that drugs aren't useful. Besides, this discussion must > have been on the list several times before my time, but I've seen the > most dramatic changes in hyperactive dogs by changing their diets. > Sometimes even overnight. I'm sure this discussion has been several times before our exchange and I think it will last years to decrease this phobia of many people against psychotropic drugs. Who hesitates in treating a long time a diabetic or a cardiac dog ? Cardiopathy is a good topic to make the link. Several human studies and some in vet begin to show that some cardiopathies are linked with anxiety and that it is possible to prevent this by treating the anxiety in young age. The heart of the question seems to be : do we think that animal can suffer by their own or do we think that all animals are "naturally" normal and suffer only from their environment? For sure, the balance of diet is important and, for example, the amount of tryptophane, as a serotonine precursor can be important. But is it totally wrong to consider that to change the diet is yet a chemical treatment, and Bach Flowers too ? Thank you for your answer and believe that never, never I will say that we can neglect behavior therapy. Respectfully, Claude Beata DVM Behaviorist certifed by French Veterinary Schools --Boundary_(ID_bxNSVayk/QloVzQVTp3pYA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit  

Bianca Uittenbogaard wrote:

Hello Claude, I received your mail to the list just fine. you wrote:>>In aggressiveness problems, if you don't use drugs to decrease dramatically
the risk to be bitten, how can you manage people's fear ? By educating them, by reducing the risks through behavioural management, by using facilities like lines, crates, muzzles etc. Not necessarily by using medication.


As a vet , my wish is to treat the dog. I'm not sure at all that using crates or line is not going to worsen dog's anxiety and for sure it enhances irritative aggression.
If I want , at first, to treat the dog, I don't want people to be bitten so I have to find a way to decrease at the same time anxiety and aggressiveness  in the dog and to allow owners to feel more secure.Learning family therapy, we can see that family systems can be totally blocked by fear and many times, when they feel this they can't learn.  For me, to use drug therapy is far less violent than to use crates, lines and so on.

>>When you have seen the difference
between treating a really hyperactive dog with and without drug, you can
never say again that drugs are unuseful.

I wouldn't say that drugs aren't useful. Besides, this discussion must have been on the list several times before my time, but I've seen the most dramatic changes in hyperactive dogs by changing their diets. Sometimes even overnight.


I'm sure this discussion has been several times before our exchange and I think it will last years to decrease this phobia of many people against psychotropic drugs. Who hesitates in treating a long time a diabetic or a cardiac dog ?
Cardiopathy is a good topic to make the link. Several human studies and some in vet begin to show that some cardiopathies are linked with anxiety and that it is possible to prevent this by treating the anxiety in young age.

The heart of the question seems to be : do we think that animal  can suffer by their own or do we think that all animals are "naturally" normal and suffer only from their environment?

For sure, the balance of diet is important and, for example, the amount of tryptophane, as a serotonine precursor can be important.
But is it totally wrong to consider that to change the diet is yet a chemical treatment, and Bach Flowers too ?

Thank you for your answer  and believe that never, never I will say that we can neglect behavior therapy.

Respectfully,
 

Claude Beata
DVM
Behaviorist certifed by French Veterinary Schools
  --Boundary_(ID_bxNSVayk/QloVzQVTp3pYA)-- From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 21-JUN-2000 02:29:23.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: CABTSG course This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_TGWi7DKPMR14JwWqrP7ing) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, Companion Animal Behaviour Therapy Study Group (CABTSG) is running a = four day course on behavioural medicine in September this year: 'Behavioural medicine for the veterinary practice' Dates : 6th to 9th September 2000 Venue : Stoke Rochford Hall, Stoke Rochford, Near Grantham,=20 Lincs NG33 5EJ The course is not only for vets but also vet nurses who already have = taken courses in behavioural medicine (e.g. the certfifcate). More details are available on our website (www.cabtsg.org) Please contact Pauline Appleby for information: Mrs Pauline Appleby, CABTSG Study Day Organiser, Interface, Hillside, Upper St. Defford. Worcs. WR8 9AB Tel 44 (0) 1386 750534 Fax 44 (0) 1386 750743 Email pauline.interface@virgin.net There is also a downloadable version of the referral form that we = recommend vets and behaviourists use when transferring cases for = behavioural therapy. Cheers, Jon Bowen --Boundary_(ID_TGWi7DKPMR14JwWqrP7ing) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all,
 
Companion Animal Behaviour Therapy = Study Group=20 (CABTSG) is running a four day course on behavioural medicine in = September this=20 year:
 
'Behavioural medicine for the = veterinary=20 practice'
Dates : 6th to 9th September = 2000
Venue : Stoke=20 Rochford Hall, Stoke Rochford, Near Grantham,
Lincs NG33 = 5EJ
 
The course is not only for vets but = also vet nurses=20 who already have taken courses in behavioural medicine (e.g. the=20 certfifcate).
 
More details are available on our = website (www.cabtsg.org)
 
Please contact Pauline Appleby for=20 information:
 
Mrs Pauline=20 Appleby,
CABTSG Study Day=20 Organiser,
Interface,
Hillside,
Upper=20 St.
Defford.
Worcs.
WR8=20 9AB
Tel    44 = (0) 1386=20 750534
Fax   44 (0) = 1386=20 750743
Email pauline.interface@virgin.net=
 
There is also a downloadable version of the referral = form that=20 we recommend vets and behaviourists use when transferring cases for = behavioural=20 therapy.
 
Cheers,
 
Jon Bowen
--Boundary_(ID_TGWi7DKPMR14JwWqrP7ing)-- From: IN%"matchdog@chello.nl" "Bianca Uittenbogaard" 21-JUN-2000 07:08:47.40 To: IN%"Claude.Beata@wanadoo.fr" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Clomicalm research articles - rant alert This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_HgdSg+U5K2HonOXumd1x1A) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello Claude, Your original question was:=20 >>In aggressiveness problems, if you don't use drugs to decrease = dramatically=20 the risk to be bitten, how can you manage people's fear ?<< As I read it, it gave me the impression that you use drugs for dogs with = the intention to manage the fear from the owners. That, in my humble = opinion, is not the right motivation to start using drugs. My reaction = was an answer to the last part of your question: how can you manage = people's fear? Namely: by educating them (the owners) and by using other = facilities like crates, muzzles etc. In your second mail, you write:=20 >>As a vet , my wish is to treat the dog. I'm not sure at all that using = crates or line is not going to worsen dog's anxiety and for sure it = enhances irritative aggression. <> For me, to use drug therapy is = far less violent than to use crates, lines and so on.<< =20 Now that is another and far better motivation to include drugs in = behavioural management. I understand that you feel that using crates = might worsen the dog's anxiety, but that depends entirely on how these = items (crates and muzzles etc.) are introduced to the animal. I use = clickertraining to get the animal where I want it to be, and because = this is done without any kind of pressure, the anxiety level goes down = instead of getting worse. Many a dog that is clickertrained to use a = muzzle will actively press it's nose into the muzzle eagerly, with a = positive body language, showing no fear at all, only positive = expectations. The same goes for the use of crates. =20 >>The heart of the question seems to be : do we think that animal can = suffer by their own or do we think that all animals are "naturally" = normal and suffer only from their environment? << =20 You gave a perfect answer to this question yourself in your first mail = about this subject. My opinion: mostly animal problems are due to the = environment, but as you say in your first mail, some will be due to = physical factors. As for your statement about cardiopathy I cannot offer an opinion, I am = not a veterinarian. =20 >>But is it totally wrong to consider that to change the diet is yet a = chemical treatment, and Bach Flowers too ? << =20 Well, that seems a very philosophical way of looking at it, I guess it = depends on your point of view. Diet changes are a far more direct route = to behaviour changes and more natural as well. It seems a long way round = to give the animal a diet that does not agree with it, and then try to = correct the dis-balance by adding chemicals in the form of medication. = It doesn't hurt to try and find out if a diet change will do the trick. = How the Bach Flowers work cannot easily be explained, not even by me. I = believe they are harmless in comparison to chemical mood-altering drugs. >>I'm sure this discussion has been several times before our exchange = and I think it will last years to decrease this phobia of many people = against psychotropic drugs. << Let me assure you that I have no phobia when it comes to working with = drugs. I do however prefer to work with friendly methods like = clickertraining to get the animal to behave more appropriately and Bach = Flower Remedies to make the animal feel better. Only if these methods do = not produce the desired results I will consider to resort to drugs. Respectfully, Bianca Uittenbogaard www.listen.to/click matchdog@chello.nl Success is a journey, not a destination --Boundary_(ID_HgdSg+U5K2HonOXumd1x1A) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Claude,
 
Your original question was:
>>In aggressiveness problems, if you don't use drugs to = decrease=20 dramatically
the risk to be = bitten, how can=20 you manage people's fear ?<<
 
As I read it, it gave me the impression = that you=20 use drugs for dogs with the intention to manage the fear from the = owners. That,=20 in my humble opinion, is not the right motivation to start using drugs. = My=20 reaction was an answer to the last part of your question: how can you = manage=20 people's fear? Namely: by educating them (the owners) and by using other = facilities like crates, muzzles etc.
 
In your second mail, you write: =
>>As a vet , my wish is to treat = the dog. I'm=20 not sure at all that using crates or line is not going to worsen dog's = anxiety=20 and for sure it enhances irritative aggression. <<snip>> For = me, to=20 use drug therapy is far less violent than to use crates, lines and so=20 on.<<
 
Now that is another and far better = motivation to=20 include drugs in behavioural management. I understand that you feel that = using=20 crates might worsen the dog's anxiety, but that depends entirely on how = these=20 items (crates and muzzles etc.) are introduced to the animal. I use=20 clickertraining to get the animal where I want it to be, and because = this is=20 done without any kind of pressure, the anxiety level goes down instead = of=20 getting worse. Many a dog that is clickertrained to use a muzzle will = actively=20 press it's nose into the muzzle eagerly, with a positive body language, = showing=20 no fear at all, only positive expectations. The same goes for the use of = crates.
 
>>The heart of the question seems = to be : do=20 we think that animal  can suffer by their own or do we think that = all=20 animals are "naturally" normal and suffer only from their environment?=20 <<
 
You gave a perfect answer to this = question yourself=20 in your first mail about this subject. My opinion: mostly animal = problems are=20 due to the environment, but as you say in your first mail, some will be = due to=20 physical factors.
 
As for your statement about cardiopathy = I cannot=20 offer an opinion, I am not a veterinarian.
 
>>But is it totally wrong to = consider that to=20 change the diet is yet a chemical treatment, and Bach Flowers too ?=20 <<
 
Well, that seems a very philosophical = way of=20 looking at it, I guess it depends on your point of view. Diet changes = are a far=20 more direct route to behaviour changes and more natural as well. It = seems a long=20 way round to give the animal a diet that does not agree with it, and = then try to=20 correct the dis-balance by adding chemicals in the form of medication. = It=20 doesn't hurt to try and find out if a diet change will do the trick. How = the=20 Bach Flowers work cannot easily be explained, not even by me. I believe = they are=20 harmless in comparison to chemical mood-altering drugs.
 
>>I'm sure this discussion has = been several=20 times before our exchange and I think it will last years to decrease = this phobia=20 of many people against psychotropic drugs. <<
 
Let me assure you that I have no phobia = when it=20 comes to working with drugs. I do however prefer to work with friendly = methods=20 like clickertraining to get the animal to behave more appropriately and = Bach=20 Flower Remedies to make the animal feel better. Only if these methods do = not=20 produce the desired results I will consider to resort to = drugs.
 
Respectfully,
 
Bianca Uittenbogaard
 
www.listen.to/click
matchdog@chello.nl
 
Success is a journey, not a=20 destination
--Boundary_(ID_HgdSg+U5K2HonOXumd1x1A)-- From: IN%"sbc@kvl.dk" "Stine B Christiansen" 23-JUN-2000 05:45:03.27 To: IN%"filip.mulkens@agr.kuleuven.ac.be", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Vedr.: Change of Address / Congresses on Applied Ethology & Farm Anima Dear Filip, The following might be of interest: EurSafe 2000, Two Systems - One World August 24-26, 2000, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, = Copenhagen, Denmark. Second Congress of the European Society for Agricultur= al and Food Ethics (EurSafe). Deadline for signing up at reduced rates is = June 15, 2000. More information: Annelise Ito or Berit Faber, Centre for = Bioethics and Risk Assessment, The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural = University, Groennegaardsvej 8, 1870 Frederiksberg C, phone + 45 3528 = 3009/10, fax + 45 3528 3022, e-mail: EurSafe@ICS.dk, website: http://www.bi= oethics.kvl.dk=20 Try also the newsletter at this website for a list of congresses: http://www.theo.uu.nl/eursafe=20 Stine =20 Stine B. Christiansen cand.med.vet. (DVM), MSc Det Dyreetiske R=E5d/The Danish Animal Ethics Council Center for Bioetik og Risikovurdering/Centre for Bioethics and Risk = Assessment Den Kgl. Veterin=E6r- og Landboh=F8jskole/The Royal Veterinary and = Agricultural University Gr=F8nneg=E5rdsvej 8 1870 Frederiksberg C Copenhagen Denmark tlf./ph.: +45 3528 3075 fax: +45 3528 3022 e-mail: sbc@kvl.dk >>> Filip Mulkens 15-06-00 00:40 >>> Forwarded to: smtp[applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca]=20 cc: =20 Comments by: Filip Mulkens@ZTC@AGR Comments: =20 -------------------------- [Original Message] ------------------------- = =20 Dear All Please note my new adress. Furthermore, I' m looking for all the information about congresses on the zootechnical, economical and ethical aspects of Farm Animal Welfare (especially concerning housing, transportation, handling (castration,...), slaughtering, ...) that were held or will be held during the period 1997-2001. More specifically, we're interested in the congress programs = and the name(s) of the organizers of these congresses. Does anybody know where to find this information? (Maybe somewhere on the Internet?). Thank you very much in advance. Dr. Filip Mulkens, DVM Proefdierencentrum K.U.Leuven Herestraat 49 B-3000 Leuven Belgium Tel: +32-16-34 62 38 Fax: +32-16-34 62 41 E-mail: filip.mulkens@pfd.kuleuven.ac.be=20 From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 26-JUN-2000 03:12:36.95 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Slaughterhouse atrocities. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_L0MoTo90J+Rm24Zbm2AFJw) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I would be interested in your comments on the posting below. >For years, those of us who follow factory farming issues have known = that >animals have been butchered alive in slaughterhouses. Finally, video >footage has been obtained from a worker in a Washington slaughterhouse >showing fully conscious cows being skinned alive and having their legs >cut off while struggling for freedom. >On May 26, 2000, television station KING channel 5 in Seattle, >Washington broadcast video footage obtained by a worker in the Iowa = Beef >Processor (IBP) slaughterhouse in Wallula, Washington showing these >atrocities. >What have we gained if we feed someone on the pain and suffering of >another life form? I explore these issues in this week's Healing Our >World commentary on the Environment News Service, hosted on LYCOS at >http://www.ens.lycos.com/ens/jun2000/2000L-06-23g.html. You will also >find many links that will help you with this complex issue. Jackie Alan Giuliano, Ph.D. =20 --Boundary_(ID_L0MoTo90J+Rm24Zbm2AFJw) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
I would be interested in your comments = on the=20 posting below.
>For years, those of us who follow = factory=20 farming issues have known that
>animals have been butchered alive = in=20 slaughterhouses. Finally, video
>footage has been obtained from a = worker=20 in a Washington slaughterhouse
>showing fully conscious cows being = skinned=20 alive and having their legs
>cut off while struggling for=20 freedom.

>On May 26, 2000, television station KING channel 5 = in=20 Seattle,
>Washington broadcast video footage obtained by a worker = in the=20 Iowa Beef
>Processor (IBP) slaughterhouse in Wallula, Washington = showing=20 these
>atrocities.
>What have we gained if we feed someone = on the=20 pain and suffering of
>another life form? I explore these issues = in this=20 week's Healing Our
>World commentary on the Environment News = Service,=20 hosted on LYCOS at
>http://ww= w.ens.lycos.com/ens/jun2000/2000L-06-23g.html.=20 You will also
>find many links that will help you with this = complex=20 issue.
Jackie Alan Giuliano, Ph.D.

  
--Boundary_(ID_L0MoTo90J+Rm24Zbm2AFJw)-- From: IN%"csermely@biol.unipr.it" "Davide Csermely" 26-JUN-2000 09:24:04.01 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Slaughterhouse atrocities. At 08.56 26-06-00 +0200, you wrote: > I would be interested in your comments on the posting below. >For >years, those of us who follow factory farming issues have known that >>animals have been butchered alive in slaughterhouses. Finally, video >>footage has been obtained from a worker in a Washington slaughterhouse >>showing fully conscious cows being skinned alive and having their legs >>cut off while struggling for freedom. > >>On May 26, 2000, television station KING channel 5 in Seattle, >>Washington broadcast video footage obtained by a worker in the Iowa Beef >>Processor (IBP) slaughterhouse in Wallula, Washington showing these >>atrocities. >>What have we gained if we feed someone on the pain and suffering of >>another life form? I explore these issues in this week's Healing Our >>World commentary on the Environment News Service, hosted on LYCOS at >>http://www.ens.lycos.com/ens/jun2000/2000L-06-23g.html. You will also >>find many links that will help you with this complex issue. >Jackie Alan Giuliano, Ph.D. > > What above is astonishing indeed; however, are you really sure that those atrocities were performed routinely or, in contrast, is there a possibility that the farmer itself performed them because filmed? I did not want to believe it, but was told that the market of videos depicting atrocities is very prosperous and someone pay people in order just to film them while performing any kind of atrocities. Davide Csermely ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Davide Csermely Tel.: +39-052190 5632 Dip. Biologia Evolutiva e Funzionale Fax: +39-052190 5657 Universita` di Parma Parco Area delle Scienze 11A 43100 Parma, Italy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 26-JUN-2000 09:40:24.63 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Slaughterhouse atrocities. Dear Glynne 1. I find it a bit odd that you post this without any comment from yourself. Where did it come from? How reliable do you think it is? 2. Any instances of this, even just one, are obviously completely unacceptable. And I can believe that there are occasional instances - although I do not believe that there are many. Slaughterhouse work is hard and unpleasant, and I suggest that at least one factor here is that too little has been done for human welfare in these places, never mind animal welfare - adding to other factors that might make people behave unreasonably. Not that this excuses such behaviour, but it might help explain it. 3. There are, though, reasons for caution in interpreting such reports. Neville Gregory's book Animal Welfare and Meat Science offers some. For example, on p242 he mentions cattle kicking for about 30s after stunning. Film of butchering beginning during that time would look pretty much like what is described below. On the same page he mentions cattle, already stunned effectively, being shot a second time to provide a hole more convenient for pithing: 'This should not be mistaken for repeat stunning' - but I bet it sometimes is. And so on. 4. Slaughterhouses have many problems, but we must not carelessly overstate them. Mike > I would be interested in your comments on the posting below. > >For years, those of us who follow factory farming issues have known = > that > >animals have been butchered alive in slaughterhouses. Finally, video > >footage has been obtained from a worker in a Washington slaughterhouse > >showing fully conscious cows being skinned alive and having their legs > >cut off while struggling for freedom. > > >On May 26, 2000, television station KING channel 5 in Seattle, > >Washington broadcast video footage obtained by a worker in the Iowa = > Beef > >Processor (IBP) slaughterhouse in Wallula, Washington showing these > >atrocities. > >What have we gained if we feed someone on the pain and suffering of > >another life form? I explore these issues in this week's Healing Our > >World commentary on the Environment News Service, hosted on LYCOS at > >http://www.ens.lycos.com/ens/jun2000/2000L-06-23g.html. You will also > >find many links that will help you with this complex issue. > Jackie Alan Giuliano, Ph.D. Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies in Agriculture & Resource Economics Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh West Mains Road Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"haleyderek@hotmail.com" "Derek Haley" 26-JUN-2000 12:16:02.09 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Searching for Sato Does anyone know how I can contact Yoshikazu Sato? If so, please e-mail me directly. Last known location, Hokkaido National Agricultural Experiment Station, Japan. Derek Haley or ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 26-JUN-2000 12:51:49.01 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: slaughterhouse atrocities To the listserv: It would be nice to think they were exaggerations, but the allegations against the IBP slaughterhouse in Wallula, Washington, USA, reported in an earlier message to the applied ethology list, were the result of a year long investigation by the Humane Farming Association's farm animal investigator Gail Eisnitz and are supported by affidavits by a substantial number of workers and, I believe, plant inspectors. Gail would be better qualified to respond to the questions that have arisen on the listserv, but in the meantime here is the text of a followup mailing. A number of humane groups in the U.S. have signed on to the petition to enforce the federal Humane Slaughter Act at this slaughterhouse. It is good to have such laws but increasingly they are not being enforced, so we cannot take them for granted. The problem is the speed of the lines which, it goes without saying, harms people, too, whether the workers at the slaughterhouse or the consumers of tainted meat. Meanwhile, IBP's announced "record" profits from its slaughter activities continue to rise each quarter. Marlene Halverson From: Lisa Wathne [mailto:lwathne@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 11:21 AM To: hsus-pnw@envirolink.org Subject: [HSUS-PNW:158] Follow-up on Wallula slaughterhouse ACTION ALERT - WALLULA SLAUGHTERHOUSE June 2, 2000 On May 24, Seattle's KING 5 TV aired a news story that exposed unbelievable acts of animal cruelty and blatant violations of state and federal humane slaughter laws at the IBP cattle slaughterhouse in Wallula, WA. The piece was the result of a year-long undercover investigation by The Humane Farming Association. If you have the computer capability, you can view the story on KING TV's web site at: http://www.king5.com/detailtopstory.html?StoryID=1386 To read the June 1 Seattle Times article about the issue go to: http://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/cows01m_20000601.html On May 31, a coalition of animal protection, consumer, and worker organizations held a press conference to further expose the issue. Following the press conference, a "Petition for Enforcement of Humane Slaughter and Animal Cruelty Laws" was presented to the office of Washington State Attorney General Christine Gregoire. The petition requests the Attorney General to initiate enforcement action against IBP-Wallula to remedy the demonstrated threats to animal welfare and worker safety and to prosecute the company for the demonstrated violations of state and federal requirements. Affidavits from numerous IBP-Wallula slaughterhouse workers were included with the petition. Following are excerpts from some of those affidavits: INEFFECTIVE STUNNING: At IBP-Wallula, stun operators are often unable to render cattle unconscious, as evidenced by the following affidavits: Affidavit #6, paragraphs 5 and 9: "There's a problem for me with knocking the cows. The chain goes too fast, more than 300 cows an hour....If I can't get the animal knocked right, it keeps going....The chain doesn't stop. It keeps running. It never stops. The cows are getting hung alive or not alive. They keep coming in. They just keep coming, coming, coming." Affidavit #3, paragraph 7: "The problem in the knocking box is that you have to work real fast because the chain is too fast and the animals that come into the box are jumping everywhere. And sometimes...you don't shoot the cow really right. And you let him go like that. And the shacklers, they get them like that, and so they shackle them alive...." Affidavit #4, paragraph 4: "The majority of the time, the knockers are in such a hurry that they can't knock the cows good enough. Some of the cows get up and run around chasing. When cows are hung alive on the chain, they look like they are trying to get unhooked to run." Affidavit #3, paragraph 4: "I estimate that 30 percent of the cows are not properly knocked and get to the first legger alive....To still be alive at the second legger the cows have gone alive from the knocker to the sticker to the belly ripper (he cuts the hide down the center of the cow's abdomen) to the tail ripper (he opens the [rectum]) to the first legger (he skins a back leg and then cuts off the foot) to the first butter (he skins from the breast to the belly and a little bit on the back) to the worker who cuts off both front feet. Those cows then go to a worker who sticks a hook into the joint where the first legger took off the foot and the cows are hung from the trolley hook. I can tell that these cows are alive because they're holding their heads up and a lot of times they make noise." Affidavit #6, paragraph 6, 7, 8: "...All the workers can open the legs, the stomach, the neck, cut off the feet while the cow is breathing. It makes noise...And the cattle go down the line for many minutes and they're still alive. They cut the legs and everything. The cattle move their eyes and their nose. They're looking around. "Sometimes the supervisor comes and works on the live cows. They don't want workers to stop the chain, so when the live cows are really active, workers are supposed to honk the horn and the supervisor will come to help them skin the live cow.... "I would estimate that one out of ten cows is still alive when it's bled and skinned." Affidavit #8, paragraph 4: "About thirty percent of the cows are still alive down the line. Sometimes more. I would see that they would be hanging there, trying to pick up their heads, they would move back and forth on the shackle, they would be blinking their eyes and looking around. You know they're alive because they are breathing real hard, they make noise, they kick the other cows, and it moves the whole chain." WORKER INJURIES Affidavit #10, paragraph 3: "I got kicked in the jaw by a cow that had been knocked but it was still alive. They had already knocked the cow and it was still alive and it kicked me under the chin. I received seven stitches for that." Affidavit #16, paragraph 23: "There are accidents because the cows are still alive. At the back hoof, the cow was kicking and it cut off one worker's three fingers. The cows are kicking and jumping and everything. And the company didn't save the fingers, so the worker lost them...." Affidavit #17, paragraph 2: "...I had two accidents because the cows were still alive at the first legger and they kicked me in my face twice. The first time I went on nine months of light duty because I got kicked in the face. My lips were cut and my teeth were driven up into my mouth. Because of these accidents...I moved from the first leg to the second legger....Unfortunately, the cows are still alive at the second legger." CONTAMINATED MEAT Affidavit #4, paragraph 5: "It's real hard to do your job because the cows are moving at the same time you're trying to do your job....Sometimes you can't even do your job not only because the cows are alive, but because the chain is running so fast. Even though I'm supposed to trim contaminants, you don't have time to clean all the pus, shit, hair, and dirt off the cows." Affidavit #2, paragraph 21: "Sometimes when the cows have manure on them and the cows are alive usually it's the supervisor who holds the legs so the workers can do their jobs and the cows pulls or something and the supervisor has to let go of it, the skin flips around and gets manure off the cow's skin, and you can see that the meat is all green and all dirty from the manure. The meat gets dirty with manure because the skin is dirty and the cows are kicking." Affidavit #7, paragraph 11: "I see cows with a lot of contamination. A lot of pus. Because the inspector's not watching. And there's a lot of contamination on the floor. All the cows that are passing by, they're getting contaminated too. And then USDA doesn't go out there and watch them any more...." From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 27-JUN-2000 03:55:15.85 To: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: slaughterhouse atrocities I am sure that the pressures on personnel in meat plants are capable of producing lapses in professional and personal standards. I believe that similar pressures lead to gross, even criminal abuse of workers in vegetarian areas of commerce. I am concerned to hear of veterinary workers needing support and training to cope with slaughter house folk. I imagine meat inspectorate can feel uncomfortably close to the cutting edges of disaffected cleaver wielders. I have also seen slaughter men swoon and faint clean away when their own pets are injured and in pain. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 7:50 PM Subject: re: slaughterhouse atrocities > To the listserv: > > It would be nice to think they were exaggerations, but the allegations > against the IBP slaughterhouse in Wallula, Washington, USA, reported in an > earlier message to the applied ethology list, were the result of a year long > investigation by the Humane Farming Association's farm animal investigator > Gail Eisnitz and are supported by affidavits by a substantial number of > workers and, I believe, plant inspectors. Gail would be better qualified to > respond to the questions that have arisen on the listserv, but in the > meantime here is the text of a followup mailing. A number of humane groups > in the U.S. have signed on to the petition to enforce the federal Humane > Slaughter Act at this slaughterhouse. It is good to have such laws but > increasingly they are not being enforced, so we cannot take them for granted. > The problem is the speed of the lines which, it goes without saying, harms > people, too, whether the workers at the slaughterhouse or the consumers of > tainted meat. Meanwhile, IBP's announced "record" profits from its slaughter > activities continue to rise each quarter. > > Marlene Halverson > > > > > From: Lisa Wathne [mailto:lwathne@ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 11:21 AM > To: hsus-pnw@envirolink.org > Subject: [HSUS-PNW:158] Follow-up on Wallula slaughterhouse > > > ACTION ALERT - WALLULA SLAUGHTERHOUSE > June 2, 2000 > > On May 24, Seattle's KING 5 TV aired a news story that exposed unbelievable > acts of animal cruelty and blatant violations of state and federal humane > slaughter laws at the IBP cattle slaughterhouse in Wallula, WA. The piece > was the result of a year-long undercover investigation by The Humane Farming > Association. > > If you have the computer capability, you can view the story on KING TV's web > site at: > http://www.king5.com/detailtopstory.html?StoryID=1386 > > > To read the June 1 Seattle Times article about the issue go to: > http://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/cows01m_20000601.html > > > On May 31, a coalition of animal protection, consumer, and worker > organizations held a press conference to further expose the issue. Following > the press conference, a "Petition for Enforcement of Humane Slaughter and > Animal Cruelty Laws" was presented to the office of Washington State > Attorney General Christine Gregoire. > > The petition requests the Attorney General to initiate enforcement action > against IBP-Wallula to remedy the demonstrated threats to animal welfare and > worker safety and to prosecute the company for the demonstrated violations > of state and federal requirements. > > > Affidavits from numerous IBP-Wallula slaughterhouse workers were included > with the petition. Following are excerpts from some of those affidavits: > > INEFFECTIVE STUNNING: > At IBP-Wallula, stun operators are often unable to render cattle > unconscious, as evidenced by the following affidavits: > > Affidavit #6, paragraphs 5 and 9: > "There's a problem for me with knocking the cows. The chain goes too fast, > more than 300 cows an hour....If I can't get the animal knocked right, it > keeps going....The chain doesn't stop. It keeps running. It never > stops. The cows are getting hung alive or not alive. They keep coming > in. They just keep coming, coming, coming." > > Affidavit #3, paragraph 7: > "The problem in the knocking box is that you have to work real fast because > the chain is too fast and the animals that come into the box are jumping > everywhere. And sometimes...you don't shoot the cow really right. And you > let him go like that. And the shacklers, they get them like that, and so > they shackle them alive...." > > Affidavit #4, paragraph 4: > "The majority of the time, the knockers are in such a hurry that they can't > knock the cows good enough. Some of the cows get up and run around chasing. > When cows are hung alive on the chain, they look like they are trying to get > unhooked to run." > > Affidavit #3, paragraph 4: > "I estimate that 30 percent of the cows are not properly knocked and get to > the first legger alive....To still be alive at the second legger the > cows have gone alive from the knocker to the sticker to the belly ripper (he > cuts the hide down the center of the cow's abdomen) to the tail ripper (he > opens the [rectum]) to the first legger (he skins a back leg and then cuts > off the foot) to the first butter (he skins from the breast to the belly and > a little bit on the back) to the worker who cuts off both front feet. Those > cows then go to a worker who sticks a hook into the joint where the first > legger took off the foot and the cows are hung from the trolley hook. I can > tell that these cows are alive because they're holding their heads up > and a lot of times they make noise." > > Affidavit #6, paragraph 6, 7, 8: > "...All the workers can open the legs, the stomach, the neck, cut off the > feet while the cow is breathing. It makes noise...And the cattle go down > the line for many minutes and they're still alive. They cut the legs and > everything. The cattle move their eyes and their nose. They're looking > around. > > "Sometimes the supervisor comes and works on the live cows. They don't > want workers to stop the chain, so when the live cows are really active, > workers are supposed to honk the horn and the supervisor will come to help > them skin the live cow.... > "I would estimate that one out of ten cows is still alive when it's bled and > skinned." > > Affidavit #8, paragraph 4: > "About thirty percent of the cows are still alive down the line. Sometimes > more. I would see that they would be hanging there, trying to pick up their > heads, they would move back and forth on the shackle, they would be blinking > their eyes and looking around. You know they're alive because they are > breathing real hard, they make noise, they kick the other cows, and it moves > the whole chain." > > WORKER INJURIES > Affidavit #10, paragraph 3: > "I got kicked in the jaw by a cow that had been knocked but it was still > alive. They had already knocked the cow and it was still alive and it kicked > me under the chin. I received seven stitches for that." > > Affidavit #16, paragraph 23: > "There are accidents because the cows are still alive. At the back hoof, the > cow was kicking and it cut off one worker's three fingers. The cows are > kicking and jumping and everything. And the company didn't save the fingers, > so the worker lost them...." > > Affidavit #17, paragraph 2: > "...I had two accidents because the cows were still alive at the first > legger and they kicked me in my face twice. The first time I went on nine > months of light duty because I got kicked in the face. My lips were cut and > my teeth were driven up into my mouth. Because of these accidents...I moved > from the first leg to the second legger....Unfortunately, the cows are still > alive at the second legger." > > CONTAMINATED MEAT > Affidavit #4, paragraph 5: > "It's real hard to do your job because the cows are moving at the same time > you're trying to do your job....Sometimes you can't even do your job not > only because the cows are alive, but because the chain is running so fast. > Even though I'm supposed to trim contaminants, you don't have time to clean > all the pus, shit, hair, and dirt off the cows." > > Affidavit #2, paragraph 21: > "Sometimes when the cows have manure on them and the cows are alive usually > it's the supervisor who holds the legs so the workers can do their jobs and > the cows pulls or something and the supervisor has to let go of it, the skin > flips around and gets manure off the cow's skin, and you can see that the > meat is all green and all dirty from the manure. The meat gets dirty with > manure because the skin is dirty and the cows are kicking." > > Affidavit #7, paragraph 11: > "I see cows with a lot of contamination. A lot of pus. Because the > inspector's not watching. And there's a lot of contamination on the floor. > All the cows that are passing by, they're getting contaminated too. And then > USDA doesn't go out there and watch them any more...." > From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 27-JUN-2000 10:09:40.00 To: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Slaughterhouse atrocities. Hi Mike 1. I received the post in email form from Jackie Alan Giuliano who appears to be a respected environmentalist and author of note. 2. I did not comment because it is not my field but I was concerned and hoped for more light on the subject from our knowledgeable subscribers. Furthermore I thought it may be of interest to the list and worth investigating. I have taken the liberty of forwarding your queries directly to Jackie for his answers in the hope of learning the truth. I thank you for your post and concern. Best wishes Glynne Anderson > 1. I find it a bit odd that you post this without any comment from > yourself. Where did it come from? How reliable do you think it is? > > 2. Any instances of this, even just one, are obviously completely > unacceptable. And I can believe that there are occasional > instances - although I do not believe that there are many. > Slaughterhouse work is hard and unpleasant, and I suggest that at > least one factor here is that too little has been done for human > welfare in these places, never mind animal welfare - adding to other > factors that might make people behave unreasonably. Not that this > excuses such behaviour, but it might help explain it. > > 3. There are, though, reasons for caution in interpreting such > reports. Neville Gregory's book Animal Welfare and Meat Science > offers some. For example, on p242 he mentions cattle kicking for > about 30s after stunning. Film of butchering beginning during that > time would look pretty much like what is described below. On the > same page he mentions cattle, already stunned effectively, being > shot a second time to provide a hole more convenient for pithing: > 'This should not be mistaken for repeat stunning' - but I bet it > sometimes is. And so on. > > 4. Slaughterhouses have many problems, but we must not > carelessly overstate them. > > Mike > > > I would be interested in your comments on the posting below. > > >For years, those of us who follow factory farming issues have known = > > that > > >animals have been butchered alive in slaughterhouses. Finally, video > > >footage has been obtained from a worker in a Washington slaughterhouse > > >showing fully conscious cows being skinned alive and having their legs > > >cut off while struggling for freedom. > > > > >On May 26, 2000, television station KING channel 5 in Seattle, > > >Washington broadcast video footage obtained by a worker in the Iowa = > > Beef > > >Processor (IBP) slaughterhouse in Wallula, Washington showing these > > >atrocities. > > >What have we gained if we feed someone on the pain and suffering of > > >another life form? I explore these issues in this week's Healing Our > > >World commentary on the Environment News Service, hosted on LYCOS at > > >http://www.ens.lycos.com/ens/jun2000/2000L-06-23g.html. You will also > > >find many links that will help you with this complex issue. > > Jackie Alan Giuliano, Ph.D. > > > Michael Appleby > > Dr M.C. Appleby > Director of Postgraduate Studies > in Agriculture & Resource Economics > Institute of Ecology and Resource Management > University of Edinburgh > West Mains Road > Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK > Tel. +44 131 535 4098 > Fax. +44 131 667 2601 > Email michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"Claudia.Loretz@fat.admin.ch" 28-JUN-2000 02:15:55.11 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: PhD thesis on loose housing of goats I am starting a PhD thesis on loose housing of goats.I am especially = interested in the design of such housing systems, the behaviour of goats in= doors = and the effects of horns on ( loose) housing design and behaviour. I 've already been searching for literature in the world's databases AGRIS,= = AGRICOLA, CAB, etc., but there's very little information about these subjec= ts.I hope = you can help me. Thank you very much Claudia Loretz --------------------------------------------------------------- Claudia Loretz Swiss Federal Veterinary Office = Centre for proper housing of ruminants and pigs CH-8356 Taenikon - Switzerland SMTP: Claudia.Loretz@fat.admin.ch = X.400: G=3DClaudia;S=3DLoretz;O=3Dfat;A=3Dadmin;C=3Dch FAX: ++41 52 365 11 90 = Phone: ++41 52 368 31 31 From: IN%"Claudia.Loretz@fat.admin.ch" 28-JUN-2000 02:15:55.33 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: PhD thesis on loose housing of goats I am starting a PhD thesis on loose housing of goats.I am especially = interested in the design of such housing systems, the behaviour of goats in= doors = and the effects of horns on ( loose) housing design and behaviour. I 've already been searching for literature in the world's databases AGRIS,= = AGRICOLA, CAB, etc., but there's very little information about these subjec= ts.I hope = you can help me. Thank you very much Claudia Loretz --------------------------------------------------------------- Claudia Loretz Swiss Federal Veterinary Office = Centre for proper housing of ruminants and pigs CH-8356 Taenikon - Switzerland SMTP: Claudia.Loretz@fat.admin.ch = X.400: G=3DClaudia;S=3DLoretz;O=3Dfat;A=3Dadmin;C=3Dch FAX: ++41 52 365 11 90 = Phone: ++41 52 368 31 31 From: IN%"katym@dmu.ac.uk" "Katy McCormick" 28-JUN-2000 08:25:49.08 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology group" CC: Subj: headshaking in horses This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_aM0/idITrGrLHEaioWbEwg) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Headshaking Syndrome in Horses - Questionnaire available =20 I am studying a frustrating condition shown in some horses known as = 'headshaking'. 'Headshakers' flick their heads up and down excessively, = particularly when ridden, and may also attempt to rub their noses with = their foreleg, on other objects or along the ground. Rather than an = aversion to being ridden, this condition apparently stems from pain in = the muzzle area (neuralgia in the nerves of the head). What causes this = neuralgia is still unknown. Present theories include allergic rhinitis, = sensitivity to sunlight (optic-trigeminal summation), damage to the = muzzle area or pain from the use of the bit. The problem often worsens = with exercise and over the summer months, but may be helped by = homeopathy or the use of a nose net attached to the bridle. I am a researcher at De Montfort University working on ways to = distinguish between types of headshaker and their possible aetiologies = by looking at the behavioural signs they show.=20 If you own a headshaker or know some one who does and would be prepared = to fill in a questionnaire to help my research, please email me at = katym@dmu.ac.uk =20 I also have a large web site devoted to this problem found at http://www.medstats.dmu.ac.uk/headshaking Thank-you for your attention =20 Katy McCormick (Ph.D Student) Dept. of Medical Statistics Faculty of Computing Science & Engineering De Montfort University The Gateway Leicester LE1 9BH U.K. =20 Email: katym@dmu.ac.uk Tel: 0116 255 1551 ext. 8510 Fax: 0116 250 6114 --Boundary_(ID_aM0/idITrGrLHEaioWbEwg) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Headshaking Syndrome in = Horses -=20 Questionnaire available
 
I am studying a frustrating condition shown in some = horses=20 known as 'headshaking'.  'Headshakers' flick their heads up and = down=20 excessively, particularly when ridden, and may also attempt to rub their = noses=20 with their foreleg, on other objects or along the ground.   = Rather=20 than an aversion to being ridden, this condition apparently stems from = pain in=20 the muzzle area (neuralgia in the nerves of the head).  What causes = this=20 neuralgia is still unknown. Present theories include allergic rhinitis,=20 sensitivity to sunlight (optic-trigeminal  summation), damage to = the muzzle=20 area or pain from the use of the bit.  The problem often worsens = with=20 exercise and over the summer months, but may be helped by homeopathy or = the use=20 of a nose net attached to the bridle.
I am a researcher at De Montfort University working = on ways to=20 distinguish between types of headshaker and their possible aetiologies = by=20 looking at the behavioural signs they show.
If you own a headshaker or = know some one=20 who does and would be prepared to fill in a questionnaire to help my = research,=20 please email me at  katym@dmu.ac.uk 
I also have a = large web site=20 devoted to this problem found at
http://www.medstats.dm= u.ac.uk/headshaking
 
Thank-you for = your=20 attention
 
Katy McCormick (Ph.D = Student)
Dept. of Medical = Statistics
Faculty of=20 Computing Science & Engineering
De Montfort University
The=20 Gateway
Leicester
LE1 9BH
U.K.
 
Email: katym@dmu.ac.uk
Tel:  &n= bsp; 0116=20 255 1551 ext. 8510
Fax:   0116 250 = 6114
--Boundary_(ID_aM0/idITrGrLHEaioWbEwg)-- From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 28-JUN-2000 08:40:29.88 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: more re: slaughterhouse atrocities One more posting at the risk of seeming "one-note" and getting the listserv=20 off on a tangent. It is not only animals who suffer. Meat quality and=20 safety are also casualties of the American way of slaughter. The job of=20 inspecting plants is also dangerous. Note, however, that in the U.S. while=20 concerns are expressed about food safety, few questions usually are raised i= n=20 the press about the suffering of animals in slaughter plants. With more=20 attention being directed to nonenforcement of the Federal Humane Slaughter=20 Act, animal protectionists in the U.S. hope that is about to change. Marlene Halverson Feedstuffs Magazine Meat inspection audit jolts agency and industry By ED MAIXNER June 26, 2000 Feedstuffs Washington Bureau WASHINGTON, D.C. -- The U.S. Department of Agriculture's Food Safety & Inspection Service (FSIS) and the meatpacking industry found themselves largely on the same side of the table last week, when USDA's inspector general issued a report sharply critical of nearly all aspects of the federal meat and poultry inspection program. Inspector General Roger Viadero released a litany of serious gaps and lapses in the FSIS program. The program covers 6,000 packing plants nationally and monitors state programs that inspect another 3,000 plants. Viadero described several deficiencies in the agency's enforcement of standards compliance, laboratory analysis of product samples, approval of foreign meat inspection programs exporting to the U.S. and, perhaps most prominently, implementation of the recently reformed plant-level standards, called the hazard analysis and critical control point (HACCP) system. Overall, the Office of Inspector General (OIG) report concluded that FSIS "has reduced its oversight short of what is prudent and necessary for the protection of the consumer." Margaret O'K. Glavin, FSIS associate administrator, said her agency "definitely disagrees" with that conclusion. Glavin said the report gives her agency a task list for improving the program, and officials know there are still gaps in the recently imposed HACCP system, which "has been an enormous challenge for us as an agency and for the industry." Top FSIS officials gathered with news media to defend their program after release of the report to defend their program. One pointed out, for example, the inspector general's report points to no specific cases where consumers were harmed by adulterated or contaminated products and "no instances where there were flagrant violations of the standards." Industry representatives were quick to voice general support for the program. Rosemary Mucklow, executive director of the National Meat Assn., said some problems might be expected because "the inspection system is going through huge changes." At the same time, she said, meat and poultry products "are probably safer today than they have ever been." American Meat Institute spokesman James Ratchford called the report "pretty aggressive." The new HACCP system does have "growing pains," Ratchford said. Industry representatives have already addressed some of the deficiencies with FSIS in the past, he said, "but they need to be fixed." "We have always been particularly concerned about the lack of consistent and uniform enforcement throughout the meat and poultry inspection program. This is documented in the OIG report," Ratchford said. In general, FSIS and industry both advocate the HACCP approach, which removes inspectors somewhat from direct inspection in meat plants and, instead, makes them primarily monitors of the plants' food safety and sanitation procedures. "It's good to have a third-party look at this," Mucklow said of the OIG audit. She said she doesn't believe the OIG auditors fully understand the shift of responsibility inherent in the HACCP system. "This is a hugely complex industry," and the auditors "don't have the depth of knowledge" accumulated by FSIS officials and plant managers. "The sense of the entire document is that the OIG simply doesn't understand the paradigm shift that occurred as a result of (HACCP)," she said. Mucklow said some of the cited deficiencies probably result from misunderstandings by the auditors and suggested the auditors could use further education in the HACCP system. The inspector general recommends tighter agency control in at least two areas. First, the report recommends the secretary of agriculture seek legislative authority for FSIS to impose civil penalties for some program violations. Currently, the agency issues warnings but, beyond that, must resort to the severe measures of criminal charges or withdrawal of inspectors if an operator refuses to comply. The department has sought authority for civil penalties in the past, and the packing industry has opposed it. Secondly, the report recommends FSIS revise its HACCP and sanitation programs so that each plant's implementation plans become "contracts" between the agency and plant operator. Currently, all plants must complete such plans in order to qualify for federal inspection, but the plans are not subject specifically to FSIS approval. FSIS officials said they will consider the "contract" concept. Mucklow also said the idea may have merit. She said the program is absorbing a lot of change right now, however, and conversion to a contract would require a lot of discussion and planning. The OIG criticisms of the program included: * Seven foreign operators tracked by the auditors shipped more than 4 million pounds of meat and poultry to the U.S. while their eligibility for shipping to the U.S. was under suspension. * FSIS granted inspection program equivalency status to six countries before it performed on-site reviews at plants in those countries to verify sufficiency of their inspection programs. * Inspectors "did not always provide required product samples to the FSIS laboratories for testing, thus leaving gaps in the sources of samples." FSIS officials offered various explanations for the citations. They said some citations resulted from delays in testing or scheduling of on-site reviews, for example, and not failure to conduct them altogether. One official noted that imports from plants in countries where on-site reviews had not yet been completed involved countries that had long-standing export status under pre-HACCP regulations. The OIG report calls for a response from FSIS within 60 days, describing corrective actions to be taken. Copyright 2000, The Miller Publishing Company, a company of Rural Press Ltd. *** Feedstuffs Magazine June 26, 2000 Three food inspectors killed in plant shooting SAN LEANDRO, CAL. -- Three food inspectors were killed and a fourth was wounded last week when the owner of a meat plant they were inspecting fired on them. The man, Stuart Alexander, owner of the family-run Santos Linguisa sausage plant, was arrested near the scene shortly after the shooting June 21. He was identified as the sole shooter by the inspector who was wounded, according to San Leandro police. The inspectors were shot as they arrived at the plant, which had just reopened after being closed for food safety and health code violations, police said. Two of the inspectors who were killed were with the U.S. Food Safety & Inspection Service and the third who was killed was with the California Department of Food & Agriculture. The inspector who was wounded and alerted police to the shooting is with the California agency. The inspectors were not armed. Alexander, 38, angered by the inspections, had posted a sign outside the plant accusing inspectors of "harassing my employees and me, making it impossible to make our great product." The sign said the plant had not been cited in 78 years until shut down for the violations and suggested that the inspectors "would not have jobs" if all plants had Santos Linguisa's record. The sign said: "We are taking legal action against them (inspectors)." Alexander could face federal charges, including the death penalty, for killing the two federal inspectors, police said. Both the FBI and San Leandro police were investigating. Alexander owns several pieces of property in San Leandro and has been hit with lawsuits related to his properties and personal loans, according to court records reported after the shooting. He had filed for bankruptcy protection in January, records show. Santos Linguisa was founded by Alexander's great grandfather in 1922 and specializes in making sausage for the Portuguese ethnic market and for pizza toppings. Copyright 2000, The Miller Publishing Company, a company of Rural Press Ltd. *** Meatpacker Recalls 266,000 Pounds of Ground Beef The Associated Press WASHINGTON (AP) - IBP Inc., the nation's biggest beef processor, recalled 266,000 pounds of ground meat Friday that may be contaminated with the deadly bacteria E. coli O157:H7. The beef was distributed to wholesalers, distributors and grocery stores in 25 states: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, and Wisconsin. No illnesses have been associated with the product, and it presents no danger if properly handled and thoroughly cooked, IBP said. The company said much of the product likely is out of the marketplace because its shelf life has expired. The contamination was discovered through samples collected by the Agriculture Department's Food Safety and Inspection Service and the Arkansas Department of Health. The beef was produced May 13 in Geneseo, Ill., and distributed in five and 10-pound packages. The meat shipped to wholesalers bears pack date "05/13/00" and code "245J00134" on the box. The packages inside the box bear a three-line code of: "EST 245J" on line one; "134 00" followed by "A" or "B" on line two; and one of the following descriptions on line three: "81 CHUCK," "81 GR BEEF," "73 GR BEEF," "SIRLOIN," "75 GR BEEF," "93 GR BEEF," or "86 ROUND." Five-pound packages distributed to retail stores in these states for further processing bear code "D0881BH" and have the following three-line code near the seam of the package: "EST 245 J" on line one; "SELL/FREEZE BY" on line two, and "MAY 31A" on line three. E. coli O157 can cause bloody diarrhea and dehydration. Children, the elderly, and people with suppressed immune systems are the most susceptible. The government recommends cooking all ground beef to 160 degrees to destroy bacteria. On the Net: http://www.fsis.usda.gov AP-ES-06-23-00 1917EDT =A9 Copyright 2000 Associated Press. All rights reserved. ___________________________ June 25, 2000 Second Plant Recalls Beef By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS WASHINGTON -- A Canadian packing plant of IBP Inc. voluntarily recalled 46,000 pounds of ground beef products Saturday because of possible contamination with E. coli, the second recall in two days for the United States' largest beef processor. The Agriculture Department's Food Safety and Inspection Service said IBP-Lakeside Packers in Brooks, Alberta, produced the products May 31 and shipped them to Kansas, Kentucky and Tennessee, as well as to locations in Canada. All products sold in the United States were packed in 10-pound vacuum-packed tubes, with eight tubes per case. The inspection service said the possible contamination was discovered in laboratory tests by a customer in Canada and reported to Canadian authorities, who relayed the warning to the USDA. No ailments have been reported from any of the recalled meat. In a release, the Lakeside plant said most of the beef was to have been processed by grocers or restaurants before being sold to consumers, which means no brand names or product codes are available for home checks. IBP acquired the Lakeside Farm Industries in 1994, IBP's first wholly owned subsidiary outside the United States. IBP is based in Dakota Dunes, S.D. On Friday, IBP recalled 266,000 pounds of ground meat produced May 13 at a plant in Geneseo, Ill., also for possible E. coli contamination. The bacteria can cause bloody diarrhea and dehydration. Children, the elderly and people with suppressed immune systems are the most susceptible. The government recommends cooking all ground beef to at least 160 degrees to destroy bacteria. From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 28-JUN-2000 09:18:02.07 To: IN%"Claudia.Loretz@fat.admin.ch" "Tel +41 52 368 33 82" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: PhD thesis on loose housing of goats Here is a snippet from the veterinary literature what I think is a warning of possible broblems. I do not think the goat takes well to crowding. Goat Husbandry - A Historical note. In Roman times the goat had a reputation for bad health. Marcus Terentius Varro says (On Agriculture II iii 8) "Quid dicam de earum sanitate, quae numquam sunt sanae?" (What can I say of the health if animals which are never healthy?) I think the Romans discovered the problems of housing goats in the way we discovered the disadvantages of intensive housing of sheep. A lot of sheep died to make the point I believe. I am sure you are not looking at the dreaded slatted floors that I recall! However Varro insists on stalls floored with stone or tile and a bedding of twigs if they have to be kept in over night. Compatibility and fighting are also considerations. Some indication of the problems with goat health may be gleaned by papers such as. Vet Hum Toxicol 1998;40 Suppl 1:7-12 Overview of diseases and drug needs for sheep and goats. Veterinarians' and producers' perspectives. de la Concha-Bermejillo A, Anderson NV, Bretzlaff K, Kimberling CV, Moore G, Rowe JD, Wolfe C Department of Pathobiology, Texas A&M University, San Angelo, USA. A survey among small ruminant veterinary practitioners and producers of the United States was conducted to determine the most important health problems of sheep and goats and the need for drugs to treat these diseases. Gastrointestinal nematodes and pneumonia were the most important health concerns. Ceftiofur, long acting tetracyclines, penicillins, tilmicosin and enrofloxacin were the antibiotics most needed. The approval of ivermectin and albendazole for goats, and fenbendazole for sheep were among the most common requests for anthelmintics. Veterinarians also stressed the need for drugs to manipulate the estrous cycle, anti-inflammatory drugs, analgesics and anesthetics. Among the viral diseases, lentivirus infections (ovine progressive pneumonia and caprine arthritis encephalitis) and soremouth were the greatest concerns among veterinarians and producers. Both groups indicated that the availability of a generic antiviral drug would be important. The lack of a rabies vaccine was of great concern particularly among goat producers. Extra-label use of drugs in food animals may result in drug residues in tissues that may be hazardous for consumers. Therefore; in order for producers to provide high quality, safe products while remaining competitive in a global market economy, research to determine safety levels and tissue depletion times of new drugs is an urgent need for the sheep and goat industry. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tel +41 52 368 33 82 To: Receipt Notification Requested (Non Receipt Notification Requested) Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 9:05 AM Subject: PhD thesis on loose housing of goats I am starting a PhD thesis on loose housing of goats.I am especially interested in the design of such housing systems, the behaviour of goats indoors and the effects of horns on ( loose) housing design and behaviour. I 've already been searching for literature in the world's databases AGRIS, AGRICOLA, CAB, etc., but there's very little information about these subjects.I hope you can help me. Thank you very much Claudia Loretz --------------------------------------------------------------- Claudia Loretz Swiss Federal Veterinary Office Centre for proper housing of ruminants and pigs CH-8356 Taenikon - Switzerland SMTP: Claudia.Loretz@fat.admin.ch X.400: G=Claudia;S=Loretz;O=fat;A=admin;C=ch FAX: ++41 52 365 11 90 Phone: ++41 52 368 31 31 From: IN%"Ingvar.Ekesbo@hmh.slu.se" "Ingvar Ekesbo" 28-JUN-2000 09:55:48.39 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Claudia.Loretz wrote: "I am starting a PhD thesis on loose housing of goats.I am especially interested in the design of such housing systems, the behaviour of goats indoors and the effects of horns on ( loose) housing design and behaviour. I 've already been searching for literature in the world's databases AGRIS, AGRICOLA, CAB, etc., but there's very little information about these subjects.I hope you can help me." My comment: Maybe Claudia Loretz might get some ideas from a similar study made on dairy cows in Sweden in the early 1960s. Its title is:"Disease Incidence in Tied and Loose housed Dairy Cattle and causes of this incidence variation with special reference to the cowshed type." It is published in: Acta Agriculturae Scandinavica, Suppl. 15, Stockholm 1966. Ingvar Ekesbo *************************************************** INGVAR EKESBO DVM,HonAssocRCVS PhD,Dr.h.c., Prof.em. Office: Dept Animal Environment and Health Section Animal Hygiene SLU, P.O.Box 234, 532 23 SKARA, Sweden Tel.: +46 (0)511 67246, Fax +46 (0)51167204 e-mail: Ingvar.Ekesbo@HMH.SLU.SE Private:Rektor Juhlins gata 9, 532 33 SKARA, Sweden Tel/fax: +46 (0)511 12278. e-mail: Ingvar.Ekesbo@HMH.SLU.SE *************************************************** From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 28-JUN-2000 10:02:49.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: rabbit behavior Since the list has been relatively slow lately, I submit the following = query: I am caring for a pet rabbit (mini rex?) who often hops around my = legs (as I am standing) in circles also making figure 8's when looping = between my legs. how do I interpret this amusing behavior? Paul From: IN%"DottieDais@aol.com" 28-JUN-2000 12:40:02.10 To: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: rabbit behavior Might he be marking you? Figure-eights would be the most efficient way of doing a thorough job on both legs. Chris Hurley From: IN%"jon.watts@usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 28-JUN-2000 22:32:17.27 To: IN%"katym@dmu.ac.uk" "Katy McCormick" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology group" Subj: headshaking and homeopathy Katy McCormick mentioned homeopathy as a possible approach to treating the headshaking syndrome in horses. Is there much evidence for the usefulness of homeopathy in treating animals? I'd be interested to read the experiences of veterinarians or pet owners regarding this form of therapy. I guess I'm a bit skeptical of the whole premise of homeopathy, even applied to humans, where I suppose a little placebo effect might creep in. But I'd like to have some better informed views than mine. Regards, Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ jon.watts@usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan" 29-JUN-2000 05:09:36.12 To: IN%"jon.watts@usask.ca" "Jon Watts" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology group", IN%"katym@dmu.ac.uk" "Katy McCormick" Subj: RE: headshaking and homeopathy Dear Jon, I too was sceptical about homeopathy until I tried it out on my dog some years ago. The dog, a whippet, was about 14 years old at the time and had developed arthritis of the type which is most painful immediately after resting and improves as the animal 'warms up'. She also became incontinent which, according to the vet, was caused by her swollen joints irritating the rectal nerves. A friend of mine swore blind that this type of arthritis responds very well to Rhus tox (poison ivy to us mortals) and she had used it with great success on her dog. Somewhat doubtfully, I gave my dog a pill. Within 24 hours the incontinence had stopped. From then on, she had a pill every morning (or two if the weather was cold and/or damp) and was never incontinent again: she also became much less stiff (indeed, positively randy - she also had a hormone imbalance which caused her to behave as though constantly in season, but that's another story...!).She died two years later, from chronic heart failure. I don't think there was a placebo effect at work here, but would be interested to know what others think. Catriona On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:32:04 -0600 (CST) Jon Watts wrote: > Katy McCormick mentioned homeopathy as a possible approach to treating the > headshaking syndrome in horses. Is there much evidence for the usefulness > of homeopathy in treating animals? > > I'd be interested to read the experiences of veterinarians or pet owners > regarding this form of therapy. I guess I'm a bit skeptical of the whole > premise of homeopathy, even applied to humans, where I suppose a little > placebo effect might creep in. But I'd like to have some better informed > views than mine. > > Regards, > > Jon > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jon Watts (___) ) ) > University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( > Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) > and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( > Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) > 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& > Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ > S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ > Canada &^%%#$@ > jon.watts@usask.ca "The Holy Cow" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------- Catriona Ryan University of Exeter School of Psychology Washington Singer Laboratories Exeter EX4 4QG Tel: +44 (0)1392 264620 (0)1392 670274 E-mail: c.m.e.ryan@exeter.ac.uk catriona@ryaninc.freeserve.co.uk From: IN%"Gerflannigan@aol.com" 29-JUN-2000 06:54:10.22 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: headshaking and homeopathy Hi Jon and Others: It may seem odd but the plecebo effect creeps into the treatment of behavior problems in animals. White and coworkers (from UC Davis) found that dominance aggression decreased in both treatment and controls (double blind, placebo controlled clinical trial) after 5 and 6 weeks of treatment with clomipramine: J Am Vet Med Assoc 1999 Nov 1;215(9):1288-91 Not meaning to belittle homeopathy in humans or companion animals, but I am never suprised by a positive effect of other treatments on animals. There could be a couple of reasons for a placebo effect in companion animals. We depend on the owner's impression of an improvement in the behavior of animals. Even with a good index based on multiple forms and charts, the owner's biased view (unconscious, of course) always is a part of the outcome. We often combine behavior modification with medication because it has been shown that the drugs rarely work alone (this is true for human psychotherapy as well) so the animal may benefit from the this treatment (although the above study asked owners to not change the way they interact with their pets). Also if the owner believes a treatment will work (people wonder why I spend so much time with my clients) then it probably will. The last thing is that we have found that when an owner understands what the problem is and is shown ways to avoid its expression, then they feel better about the problem and even the expression of the behavior problem bothers them less. Just rambling thoughts while waiting for something to do. Gerry Flannigan PS. Joe, how's it going? From: IN%"DMills@dmu.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" 29-JUN-2000 07:08:23.76 To: IN%"Gerflannigan@aol.com" "'Gerflannigan@aol.com'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: headshaking and homeopathy I think there is one other factor which is often overlooked in medical therapy of behaviour problems in animals when we talk about the placebo effect and that is the effect of the introduction of the routine of giving a tablet to the animal. this may relieve certain anxieties as the routine provides a stable point in the relationaship and the act of giving an animal a tablet means the owner is exerting some control over the animal. This may be very important particularly in cases of supposed "dominance" aggression, which often appear to be based more in the anxiety provoked by inconsistent signalling from the owner than anything else, i.e. one day you could do this, but now you can't. I think the lack of efficacy of drugs alone also suggest that there is something more fundamental wrong with our perception of behaviour problems, i.e that many of these supposed clinical entities are not discrete or homogenous biological entities, but that's a discussion for another day Daniel Mills > -----Original Message----- > From: Gerflannigan@aol.com [SMTP:Gerflannigan@aol.com] > Sent: 29 June 2000 13:54 > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: headshaking and homeopathy > > Hi Jon and Others: > > It may seem odd but the plecebo effect creeps into the treatment of > behavior > problems in animals. White and coworkers (from UC Davis) found that > dominance > aggression decreased in both treatment and controls (double blind, placebo > > controlled clinical trial) after 5 and 6 weeks of treatment with > clomipramine: > > J Am Vet Med Assoc 1999 Nov 1;215(9):1288-91 > > Not meaning to belittle homeopathy in humans or companion animals, but I > am > never suprised by a positive effect of other treatments on animals. There > > could be a couple of reasons for a placebo effect in companion animals. We > > depend on the owner's impression of an improvement in the behavior of > animals. Even with a good index based on multiple forms and charts, the > owner's biased view (unconscious, of course) always is a part of the > outcome. > We often combine behavior modification with medication because it has been > > shown that the drugs rarely work alone (this is true for human > psychotherapy > as well) so the animal may benefit from the this treatment (although the > above study asked owners to not change the way they interact with their > pets). Also if the owner believes a treatment will work (people wonder > why I > spend so much time with my clients) then it probably will. The last thing > is > that we have found that when an owner understands what the problem is and > is > shown ways to avoid its expression, then they feel better about the > problem > and even the expression of the behavior problem bothers them less. > > Just rambling thoughts while waiting for something to do. > > Gerry Flannigan > > PS. Joe, how's it going? From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James Brody" 29-JUN-2000 08:16:17.19 To: IN%"Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com" CC: Subj: 3 Seminars in July: The Natures We Share (News Release) 3 Seminars in July: The Natures We Share Open to the General Public: No Charge! = WHO: John Price, D.M., Nancy Segal, Ph.D., John Fentress, Ph.D., Russell Gardner, M.D., & James Brody, Ph.D. who are instructors for Cape Cod 2000= (formerly the Cape Cod Institute) for the week of July 17-21, 2000 in Eastham. WHERE: The First Congregational Church in Wellfleet WHEN: July 18-20, 2000 at 7 P.M. - 9:30 P.M. GENERAL BACKGROUND Dr. Nancy Segal and others will give a set of lectures on "Twins and Us" = as formal presentations to a clinical audience each morning at the Cape Cod 2000, a summer-long professional learning institute now in its 21st seaso= n on the Cape. As a personal gesture, several of the speakers, John Price= , D.M., John Fentress, Ph.D., and James Brody, Ph.D., will offer their time= and knowledge to the general public in 3 talks (Tues., Weds., and Thurs= . evenings during that week) at the 1st Congregational Church in Wellfleet= . = There is no admission charge or donation for these talks. Price is an English psychiatrist and a pioneer in evolutionary psychiatry= ; Fentress has studied social behavior in wolves for 3 decades and is recognized as an expert. Both of these scholars have traveled widely and= have substantial international reputations. Brody is in private practice= near Philadelphia, has used evolution as a guide for his clients for the last 10 years, and has organized seminars on human behavior and evolution= for the Cape Cod Institute for the last 3. Each of these speakers cares deeply about their subject and makes great efforts to share that passion with audiences. Their general topic will be that of social behavior and what we might lea= rn from evolutionary concepts. Findings from genetics, linguistics, anthropology, and biology underline the fundamental kinship that exists between all living things. Unfortunately, human needs now exert overwhelming costs on other creatures but in ways that eventually will erode our own well being and in surprising ways. Accordingly, traditiona= l opponents (nature vs. nurture, religion vs. science) no longer have the luxury of old feuds. As someone noted, even if we disagree on the origin= s of this planet, let us "come together mightily" in how best to manage it and ourselves. Thus, we offer our time and our best ideas to anyone who wishes both to learn and to teach us in return and we offer the arenas of= human emotional resilience and distress as an opening. The First Congregational Church in Wellfleet, a vital hub of summer life = on the Cape, has graciously agreed to rent us a place for our discussions. = (The Cathedral of St. John the Divine in Manhattan provided space last November for a very successful conference on the topic of evolutionary psychiatry.) THE 3 TALKS #1: Nature and Our Common Sense ... Tuesday, July 18, 2000 Dr. James Brody will discuss, with the help of a lot of slides and an enthusiastic manner and dry sense of humor, aspects of child rearing, marriage, and moral judgments with the intent of showing our traditional "common sense," as it is shared by other humans, to have great merit. = Evolutionary ideas help us to understand the reasons for its wisdom. (Mor= e on separate page) #2: Darwin and Psychotherapy ... Wednesday, July 19, 2000 Dr. John Price will speak on treatment approaches for anxiety, depression= , and for schizophrenia. His material is tailored for mental health professionals including pastoral counselors, social workers, psychologist= s, psychiatrists, and physicians in general practice who take an interest in= the emotional components of their patient's distress. (More on separate page) #3: My Life With Wolves ... Thursday, July 20, 2000 Dr. John Fentress will show some of his extensive library of tapes that reveal the strategies that we share with wolves and what we might learn from them as they are reintroduced into many sections of the United State= s. Wolves, far smarter than dogs, accomplish complex social results but without the tools that language offers or the need for human companions. = (More on separate page) SPEAKER BACKGROUNDS Dr. Price, along with Nancy Segal, Ph.D., James Brody, Ph.D., Russell Gardner, MD, and John Fentress, Ph.D. will be present on different evenings. (Dr. Segal will teach a morning class, "Twins and Us," July 17-21, 2000, at the Nauset Regional High School as part of Cape Cod 2000,= formerly the Cape Cod Institute.) They bring rich, unmatched backgrounds = to that week in July. = James Brody, Ph. D., is the developer of an interdisciplinary symposium series on evolutionary psychology and clinical sociobiology for the Cape Cod Institute/Cape Cod 2000. He has used evolutionary concepts in his private practice for a dozen years in Pennsylvania and is a regular speak= er at professional meetings and business associations. Brody is intensely interested in anxiety, depression, ADHD, and bipolar disorder and sees th= em as fitting neatly within evolutionary theory. There are some interestin= g changes in how we might understand these disorders as well as treat them= . = Brody is also the founder and current host of Evolutionary Psychology, a forum on Behavior Net, which can be located at www.cape.org. This is Brody's 4th summer of teaching on the Cape. John Fentress, Ph. D. is a distinguished neurodevelopmental scientist and= ethologist, currently with the University of Oregon and former Chair of Neuroscience and Psychology at Dalhousie University. He has enduring interests in the social behavior of wolves. He has taught on the Cape fo= r the last 2 summers. He began his career with a strong interest in personality theory and the evolution of human = actions. After meeting with Carl Jung in 1959 he decided to take up anim= al behavior research, and went to the University of Cambridge in England whe= re he studied ethology. There he worked with R.A. Hinde and W.H. Thorpe, an= d was a contemporary of Patrick Bateson and Jane = Goodall. He also kept a wolf as a pet. After Cambridge (Ph.D., 1965), Fentress went to the Center for Brain Research (with wolf) in Rochester, New York, where he worked with R. Doty on electrophysiological mechanisms= in movement and vision. His first academic appointment was in Biology an= d Psychology at the University of Oregon in Eugene, where he founded the BioSocial Research Center. In 1974 he accepted a position as professor a= nd chair in psychology = at Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia. He is interested in animal communication as well as the neural control and development of movement patterns. = John Price, D.M. has practiced psychiatry in Great Britain, where medications are used more conservatively, and is past president of the Division on Psychotherapy, World Psychiatric Association. He is also a charming speaker and distinguished scientist and author. His book, "Evolutionary Psychiatry: A New Beginning," has just been released in its= second edition. You will enjoy him if you watch the Discovery Channel, enjoy animal stories, and wonder how we fit in with other living creature= s. This is his second summer teaching on the Cape. = Dr. Price's experience includes a research degree (D. M.) in psychology a= nd medicine from the highly ranked Magdalen College, Oxford University and participation in the Genetics Research Unit of the Institute of Psychiatr= y, London before holding a Senior Lectureship at the University of Newcastle= . = He next held a joint research/practice post at Northwick Park Hospital an= d Research Center at Harrow, near London in the early 1970's where he worke= d on the evolutionary basis of depression. = In 1978 he developed services for the new city of Milton Keynes in Buckinghamshire, built to house and employ people moving out of the capital. He continued to develop his thinking on evolutionary theories o= f depression and mental disorders in collaboration with a group of others -= Paul Gilbert in England, Russell Gardner and Leon Sloman in North America= . = The ensuing period allowed the development of ideas, personal travel, and= professional involvement at an international level which has included the= Presidency of the Psychotherapy Section of the World Psychiatric Association. THE SUPPORTING PLAYERS FOR THE EVENING SEMINARS Dr. Segal is director of twins research at California State University at= Fullerton, CA and was a close associate of Dr. Thomas Bouchard for 9 year= s while he conducted the famous Minnesota Twins Project and is author of th= e popular reference, "Entwined Lives: Twins and What They Tell Us About Hum= an Behavior. Dr. Segal is a popular speaker and has appeared on 20/20, Nightline, and similar television shows. She is the lead speaker that we= ek for the morning sessions in "Twins and Us." Russell Gardner, M. D., is former Harry K Davis Professor of Psychiatry a= t the University of Texas, Galveston, and is Chair of the Psychotherapy Division, World Psychiatric Assn. He is widely published and founded the= International Society for Across Species Comparisons and Psychopathology and has published widely on topics in evolutionary psychiatry. He has ve= ry strong interests in mania and in depression as springing from disorders i= n our capacity to lead and to exert influence. This will be his 3rd summer= of teaching on the Cape. BACKGROUND READING: Hrdy, S. (1999) Mother Nature: A History of Mothers, Infants, and Natural= Selection. NY: Pantheon Press. McGuire, M. & Troisi, A. (1998) Darwinian Psychiatry. NY: Oxford University Press. Nesse, R. & Williams, G. (1998) Evolution and the Origins of Disease. = Scientific American November, 1998, 279, 86-93. Segal, N. (1999) Entwined Lives: Twins and What They Tell Us about Human Behavior. NY: Dutton. Stevens, A., & Price, J. (2000) Evolutionary Psychiatry: A New Beginning.= (2nd Ed.) NY: Routledge Press. Weiner, J. (2000) Time, Love, Memory. NY:Knopf. Wright, R. (1994) The Moral Animal: The New Science of Evolutionary Psychology. NY: Pantheon Press. MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: James Brody, Ph.D., 610-948-5344 (home/work), 1262 West Bridge St., Sprin= g City, PA 19475 3 Seminars in July: The Natures We Share Part 1: NATURE AND OUR COMMON SENSE Open to the general public, no charge! WHO: James Brody, Ph.D = WHEN: Tuesday, July 18, 2000, 7-9:30 P.M. WHERE: The First Congregational Church in Wellfleet, MA INTRODUCTION: = We Americans share "common sense" with every people on this earth. That is, we all have similar approaches for finding partners, rearing children= , handling relationships with each other and making deals. We gossip, laug= h at similar jokes, and are saddened or disgusted by similar things. = Likewise, we joke, beg, and lie to each other in very predictable ways. = We also read the facial expressions of people even if we don't speak their language. = The wars between men and women occur widely in nature and even within the= body of every pregnant woman. Further, we've probably had day care in on= e form or another for 200,000 years and so have rhesus monkeys. There are reasons why mom, but not dad, knows where Petey's missing socks are. The= re are also reasons why Petey doesn't clean his room and why he fights with his sister but will defend her from people outside the family and why grandparents give him lots of presents which he ignores. = Evolution helps us to understand why we do the things that we do; further= , we sometimes can trick her into working for our personal advantage. = Darwinian approaches also affirm that we are individually unique in our talents and that when we are allowed to use our talents and to do "our ow= n thing," we thrive. = However, some of our tools are often strained in larger groups such as hospitals and schools. They are also strained when we move often, cuttin= g personal relationships and exhausting the resources of our home and neighborhood instead of sustaining them. And like most other creatures, = we often want more than we need. = Brody will use dry humor and a large collection of slides to lead the session. Pretty much anyone is welcome provided they like The Discovery Channel, looking at pictures of babies, and sharing animal stories. It's= also good if you have conversations with your cat instead of lecturing th= e creature. Teachers, parents, and mental health professionals, whether fu= ll time residents or visitors to the Cape, are especially welcome. MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: James Brody, Ph.D., 610-948-5344 (home/work), 1262 West Bridge St., Sprin= g City, PA 19475 (News Release) 3 Seminars in July: The Natures We Share Open to the General Public: No Charge! Part 2: DARWIN AND PSYCHOTHERAPY WHO: John S. Price, D.M. = WHEN: Wednesday, July 19, 2000, 7-9:30 P.M. WHERE: The First Congregational Church in Wellfleet, MA. WHAT: A talk and discussion with English psychiatrist, Dr. John Price. We have old, reliable tools within our minds for the purpose of our survival in groups. We check each other for health, for resources, and f= or recent victories or losses. We also compare our own assets with those of= other people. Our moods, led by our mutual social inspections, lead us t= o act submissively or to take leadership. We rise with victory and fold wi= th defeat. We beam and smile after winning and signal for help when we are overwhelmed by superior forces. Sometimes, because of inheritance or social turmoil, these tools do not seem to work particularly well. That is, either we are personally uncomfortable or we hear lots of complaints from other people about what = we do and don't do. Dr. Price, an English psychiatrist and distinguished author, will discuss the treatment of depression, anxiety, and schizophrenia as well as some of the other emotional glitches that happen= to many of us. = No personal advice will be given that evening for legal reasons as well a= s limits on both privacy and the time available to us. Nonetheless, his material is important for students of human social behavior as well as therapists whether they be full time residents of the Cape or visitors an= d whether ministers, social workers, school counselors, psychologists, or psychiatrists. = Price is a sensitive, quiet individual who enjoys pulling his audiences i= n close and making each of his points very clear and in order. (News Release) 3 Seminars in July: The Natures We Share Open to the General Public: No Charge! Part 3: MY LIFE WITH WOLVES WHO: John Fentress, Ph.D. = WHEN: Thursday, July 19, 2000, 7-9:30 P.M. WHERE: The First Congregational Church in Wellfleet, MA. WHAT: A talk and discussion with Dr. John Fentress, Professor of psycholo= gy and neuroscience, from the University of Oregon and from Dalhousie University. = from Discovery Magazine, June 2000, p. 49, in regard to wolves: "...we admire animals with talents mirroring our own. We marvel at parro= ts that talk, apes that invent, elephants that mourn, cats that preen, dogs that play. As for wolves, they're hardy and resourceful. They live in highly organized and territorial groups, hunt cooperatively, and have = strong mate preferences. Wolf packs have strict social structures and etiquette that govern their interactions. In short, their habits seem strangely like ours." Wolves are smarter than dogs and are being reintroduced in sections of th= e country as a check on the populations of other animals. John Fentress, Ph.D., Professor of psychology and neuroscience, will be joining us from the University of Oregon and from Dalhousie University. This will be his= third summer of teaching on the Cape. This distinguished scholar has studied social behavior in wolves for 30 years and often kept one as a companion. Fentress studied ethology with R.A. Hinde and W.H. Thorpe at Cambridge and is interested in animal communication, neural control and development of movement patterns. He has known Jane Goodall, Carl Jung, Niko Tinbergen, and Konrad Lorenz. John will share his favorite tapes, stories, and research from perhaps the largest collection of wolf observations in the world. Fentress is a kindly giant who probably never met a person who didn't lik= e him. He speaks clearly, asks clear questions, and enjoys close interactions with members of his audience. He is also a self directed thinker who studies because he enjoys knowledge and any small gain that h= e can make in his personal understanding of life, behavior, neurology, biology, or genetics. Mature preteens, adults, and people who love animal stories will enjoy hi= s presentation. Fentress will be delighted if any detail of his talk positively changes the life of an audience member. MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: James Brody, Ph.D., 610-948-5344 (home/work), 1262 West Bridge St., Sprin= g City, PA 19475 Jim Brody Clinical Sociobiology http://www.behavior.net/forums/evolutionary From: IN%"katym@dmu.ac.uk" "Katy McCormick" 29-JUN-2000 08:22:59.36 To: IN%"jon.watts@usask.ca" "Jon Watts" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology group" Subj: RE: headshaking and homeopathy Thank you for raising the question of homeopathy and its effectiveness in treating animals. In our last study of 245 headshakers (manuscript submitted) we found that, out of those that had tried homeopathy (mainly for allergy), 6.5% claimed complete success, 31% partial and 62.5% no success at all. This is interesting when you compare it to the success rate of traditional veterinary treatments for the problem. These had a 6.3% complete success rate, 22% partial and 71.7% zero success. Similar results were also found for other alternative therapies and feed supplements. The most successful treatments were nose and face nets with a complete success rate of 27% and 8% respectively. However, given the nature of the headshaking condition this result must be interpreted with care. Due to the poor success of traditional treatments for headshaking, many owners find themselves desperately searching for alternative therapies. They may attribute success to the product when the condition may or may not have resolved itself spontaneously. Thus a causal link may be perceived to exist when in fact there is not one. Owners frustrated by traditional treatments may also be more likely to complete this sort of survey. (We would still like to hear about all successful cases, however apparently cured.) Whether the similar success rates claimed for the above treatments were due to a placebo effect (rather than an effective treatment of the problem) certainly warrants further investigation. Thanks Katy McCormick (Ph.D Student) Dept. of Medical Statistics Faculty of Computing Science & Engineering De Montfort University The Gateway Leicester LE1 9BH U.K. Email: katym@dmu.ac.uk Tel: 0116 255 1551 ext. 8510 Fax: 0116 250 6114 From: IN%"noofies@tir.com" "Noofies" 29-JUN-2000 09:17:04.86 To: IN%"jon.watts@usask.ca" "Jon Watts" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology group" Subj: RE: headshaking and homeopathy I'm a pet owner/rescuer, and I've successfully used homeopathy with my animals (dogs and cats). Arnica has been effective in preventing/treating inflammation and bruising from traumatic injury, and seems to have a beneficial effect on the animal's mental state. I don't have the proper terms to describe it, but it's almost like it puts their "attitude" into healing mode. This is administered in pellet form, which dissolves quickly in the mouth. I just tuck a couple between the lower lip and gums. I've also had a great deal of success using Rescue Remedy - a Bach Flower Essence combination - for treating acute stress/fear. It works especially well with the feral cats I TNR. With cats I can touch, I put a few drops into their mouths or rub a few drops into their ear tips. With cats that are too wild to touch, I put it in their drinking water. (I've also used it myself - the effect is difficult to elucidate, but it seems to take the sharp edge off the fear.) When introducing a new animal to the household, I put it in the residents' drinking water. I have no scientific backup for the results I've seen, but it does seem to relax everyone a little and make the introductions easier. I have been using herbs and Rescue Remedy for years; I've only begun using homeopathics in the last several months. But based on the results I've seen, I'm a "believer" and will continue using them. Nancy Muller From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 29-JUN-2000 09:57:29.88 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: headshaking and homeopathy -- and slaughterhouse scandals ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Mills Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 6:12 AM > I think the lack of efficacy of drugs alone also > suggest that there is something more fundamental wrong with our perception > of behaviour problems, i.e that many of these supposed clinical entities are > not discrete or homogenous biological entities, but that's a discussion for > another day bingo! i'll be there/here -- ever available and interested. also, if i may, a p.s. about the slaughterhouse business -- www.nytimes.com -- part of a serial on race relations in America has an excellent piece on slaughterhouse politics. and by chance, given the posts in our forum here to this topic, tragic chance, out here in the San Francisco Bay Area, just last week, 3 meat inspectors were shot to death by a distraught business owner who apparently feared for his business being closed down. nevermind that now he's facing 3 counts of murder. naturally, i thought of all of you when i read these reports in the paper; how here the work is of finding ways of living with the animals. and as always i was grateful i can live my life with Deerhounds; their morality is ever clear and consistent. yours, margory cohen From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 29-JUN-2000 10:33:48.96 To: IN%"jon.watts@usask.ca" "Jon Watts" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: headshaking and homeopathy I think we are talking about something that transcends mere science. Homeopathy (for me) is a new art form. It competes with Elephant Dung Sculpture which as you know fetches great barrow loads of money on the international art market. Some say that it stinks and others bemoan its keeping qualities as it does not get better with time. The original theories of Dr H are encrusted on the medical philosophy of the 1830's and seem to be indelible. There are however, rules in Homeopathy as there are in Art and I do not mean merely that if applied too wet it all runs down the walls. There are rules in the Canon itself. "Within 24 hours the incontinence had stopped. From then on, she had a pill every morning (or two if the weather was cold and/or damp) and was never incontinent again: she also became much less stiff (indeed, positively randy - she also had a hormone imbalance which caused her to behave as though constantly in season, but that's another story...!).She died two years later, from chronic heart failure. " Our correspondent does violence to the "science"! The mischief is in her brackets. the potency of a nosode lies in the dilution. To increase the potency you give a greater dilution not a double dose. I wrote the following note to this list last October just prior to two strokes and a attack. My recovery owes everything to modern conventional medicine including psychotropic drugs and the love and support of many humans and of course a dog! ,, << I find myself in competition with a homeopathic chemist and a least one homeopathic veterinary surgeon. I think they buy in their nosodes although it is easy to make them. Apparently after diluting the similitudinous substance until there are no molecules of it in the water the classic activation (succussation) is to knock the bottle smartly 60 times against a large book. After some interesting encounters with heart cases and epileptic dogs and a couple of fatalities I am close to striking her about the head 60 times with each and every one of the books she apparently never read! But that is not why I write. I rang the chemist today and asked if in his 35 years of homeopathic dispensing he had ever experienced or heard of any recall of a homeopathic product or any mishap with manufacture or container. He says he has never heard of such a thing. This leaves me wondering why the entire world of space and aeronautical engineering and every other industry or endeavour on the planet has not invaded the nosode manufacturers to discover the secret of this technical infallibility and whence the faultless superhumans came who administer this miracle. Just a thought. "Laughter is the best medicine! If however you have diabetes it is definitely insulin" Reader's Digest Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Watts Cc: applied-ethology group Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 5:32 AM Subject: headshaking and homeopathy . Is there much evidence for the usefulness > of homeopathy in treating animals? > > I'd be interested to read the experiences of veterinarians or pet owners > regarding this form of therapy. I guess I'm a bit skeptical of the whole > premise of homeopathy, even applied to humans, where I suppose a little > placebo effect might creep in. But I'd like to have some better informed > views than mine. > > Regards, > > Jon > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Jon Watts (___) ) ) > University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( > Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) > and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( > Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) > 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& > Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ > S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ > Canada &^%%#$@ > jon.watts@usask.ca "The Holy Cow" > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"filip.mulkens@pfd.kuleuven.ac.be" "Filip Mulkens" 29-JUN-2000 15:00:20.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "AE-Network" CC: Subj: Fw: headshaking and homeopathy Dear All I think this is a classical example of the confusion between all non-allopathic therapies. Homeopathy is a system of 'medicine' in which a disease is treated by giving very small amounts of a substance which, in larger amounts, would usually produce an illness similar to the disease (in Latin: similia similibus curantur: the same is treated by the same). Homeopaths use very strong dilutions, even that strong that the diluted molecule is no longer detectable by the most advanced analysis techniques, in chemical analysis terms: they treat the disease with water (H20). This is totally different from herb medicine (and Bach blossom therapy(?)), where 'natural' products, with medicinal properties are used. In fact, most of the allopathic molecules originate from natural molecules. The best known example is aspirin, that originates from the bark of a willow. And in Belgium exists an 'allopathic' ointment (Euceta), used for haematomes, with extracts from Arnica... So, I believe in the therapeutic effects of herbal medicine, but I'm afraid that the therapeutic effects of homeopathy are mere placebo-effects, even in animals: the extra attention that an animal gets from his owner (who uses homeopathic products) has enormous effects on the healing process. Filip Dr. Filip Mulkens, DVM Director Laboratory Animal Resource Center K.U.Leuven Herestraat 49 B-3000 Leuven Belgium Tel: +32-16-34 62 38 Fax: +32-16-34 62 41 E-mail: filip.mulkens@pfd.kuleuven.ac.be ----- Original Message ----- From: Noofies To: Jon Watts Cc: applied-ethology group Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 8:10 PM Subject: Re: headshaking and homeopathy > I'm a pet owner/rescuer, and I've successfully used homeopathy with my > animals (dogs and cats). Arnica has been effective in preventing/treating > inflammation and bruising from traumatic injury, and seems to have a > beneficial effect on the animal's mental state. I don't have the proper > terms to describe it, but it's almost like it puts their "attitude" into > healing mode. This is administered in pellet form, which dissolves quickly > in the mouth. I just tuck a couple between the lower lip and gums. > > I've also had a great deal of success using Rescue Remedy - a Bach Flower > Essence combination - for treating acute stress/fear. It works especially > well with the feral cats I TNR. With cats I can touch, I put a few drops > into their mouths or rub a few drops into their ear tips. With cats that > are too wild to touch, I put it in their drinking water. (I've also used it > myself - the effect is difficult to elucidate, but it seems to take the > sharp edge off the fear.) When introducing a new animal to the household, I > put it in the residents' drinking water. I have no scientific backup for > the results I've seen, but it does seem to relax everyone a little and make > the introductions easier. > > I have been using herbs and Rescue Remedy for years; I've only begun using > homeopathics in the last several months. But based on the results I've > seen, I'm a "believer" and will continue using them. > > Nancy Muller > From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 29-JUN-2000 18:56:52.85 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: today's new york times hello - i've not before seen a story like this, at least since it seems i started to read only about us and the animals (mostly dogs to be sure, but....). so i thought to post it here, fyi or thoughts back welcome. margory UN: Mongolian Drought Causing Havoc By The Associated Press UNITED NATIONS (AP) -- A severe drought followed by Mongolia's worst winter in 30 years has killed millions of livestock, creating an economic crisis for 500,000 Mongolians, U.N. and Mongolian officials said Tuesday. More than 2.2 million cows, horses, camels, goats and sheep starved or froze to death, leaving some areas with decaying carcasses every 100 yards, said Douglas Gardner, the U.N. Development Program's regional disaster coordinator in Mongolia. With one third of Mongolia's 2.4 million people directly dependent on raising livestock, ``this is not just a crisis of animals,'' Gardner told a news conference, ``it's a human drama.'' Although less than 10 people are believed to have died as a result of the disastrous weather, it has affected at least half a million people. In a documentary presented at U.N. headquarters Tuesday, a Mongolian herder said he combed his dead goats and sold the cashmere to buy wheat and flour after most of his livestock died in the fierce winter, when temperatures dropped as low as minus 50. ``But what will happen when we run out of this, I just don't know,'' said 50-year-old herder Ayuurzan, who uses just one name. The United Nations has received $371,000 for emergency relief aid for Mongolia -- just 10 percent of its initial appeal for $3 million. Meanwhile, the arrival of the summer has also brought new dangers and fears of more drought in Mongolia, a vast, sparsely populated Central Asian nation where approximately one-third of the people still live a nomadic life. ``With summer coming there is growing danger of the decaying ... of dead livestock that could contaminate not only the immediate environment, but also water resources,'' said Jargalsaikhany Enkhsaikhan, Mongolia's ambassador to the United Nations. ``The likelihood of the outbreak of different diseases is quite high,'' he said. Cholera and other diseases can be transmitted by contaminated drinking water. From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 29-JUN-2000 18:57:35.44 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: more from the ny times - book review -- mind drugs This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_+UpYQx9CIhb7oG99YC2/JA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable ny times - 6/29/00 -- book review - anti- prozachello -- one other = thing: a book review -- as to mind drugs on humans. to be sure, = humans, but with all the cross-over to dogs...... things to ponder. margory June 29, 2000=20 'PROZAC BACKLASH'=20 Overcoming the Dangers of Prozac Zoloft, Paxil and Other=20 Antidepressants With Safe, Effective Alternatives By Joseph = Glenmullen, M.D.=20 383 pages. Simon & Schuster. $25.=20 =B4Prozac Backlash=B4: Exploring a Dark Side=20 of Depression Remedies=20 By JANET MASLIN=20 From a 1996 drug advertisement in The Journal of Clinical = Psychiatry:=20 "A great day for Dad. A great day for Mom. A terrific day for = the family.=20 Make it happen. The Zoloft Saturday."=20 For any of the estimated one in 10 Americans who have been = exposed to=20 Prozac or the other, similar prescription medicines discussed = in his=20 blistering new book, Dr. Joseph Glenmullen offers something = none too=20 welcome: reason to be anxious and depressed. Even for anyone=20 determined never to read anything with "Prozac" in its title, = he presents an=20 important, deeply troubling examination of the means by which = these=20 drugs have become so widely disseminated, and the possible = long-term=20 toll they may take.=20 In a book that ensures he will never be the guest of honor at = a=20 pharmaceutical convention, Glenmullen, a clinical instructor = in psychiatry=20 at Harvard Medical School and a practicing psychiatrist, = offers a=20 wide-ranging and well-researched indictment. He begins by = invoking the=20 track record of Thorazine, the tranquilizer that was greeted = as a=20 psychological panacea in the 1950s, later produced = neurological side=20 effects in 40 percent of patients and was not burdened with an = FDA=20 warning label until 1985. What if Prozac and other, similar = drugs that=20 have begun to be linked with the same symptoms had a = comparable=20 effect?=20 In a book as readable as it is alarming, Glenmullen = crystallizes the=20 evidence that these drugs, selective serotonin reuptake = inhibitors (or=20 SSRIs), by manipulating the influx of serotonin in the brain, = can create a=20 "backlash" by affecting the levels of other chemicals, notably = dopamine.=20 He shows how that process can yield such Thorazine-associated = fallout=20 as facial tics, memory loss and body-stiffening parkinsonism. = "The=20 unfortunate irony is that drugs heavily promoted as correcting = unproven=20 biochemical imbalances may be, in fact, causing imbalances and = brain=20 damage," he asserts. "Will silent damage caused by a serotonin = booster=20 accelerate the aging process and make some people more prone = to=20 develop neurological symptoms later in life?"=20 It can and will be argued that such problems are rare and that = the=20 much-vaunted uplifting effects of these drugs are more = significant than=20 their potential detriments. Even so, "Prozac Backlash" makes a = tough,=20 persuasive case that the drugs are more dangerous than = generally=20 acknowledged, that patients and doctors are insufficiently = informed about=20 the risks and that drug companies devote vast amounts of money = and=20 energy to spin control.=20 "When discussing brain cell damage caused by street drugs such = as=20 amphetamines, cocaine or Ecstasy, researchers speak in the = gravest=20 terms, warning of dread effects," writes Glenmullen, who = presents=20 abundant evidence of how so-called independent researchers may = prove=20 to be on drug company payrolls. "Only when referring to = prescription=20 drugs do they suggest that pruning nerve cells might be = 'therapeutic."'=20 The book spends much time on the important role of euphemism = in=20 Prozac's public relations. For instance, Glenmullen offers a = lengthy=20 discussion of the difficulty patients may experience in trying = to wean=20 themselves from these drugs, even if Eli Lilly, the company = that=20 manufactures Prozac, has run ads reading: "Like other = antidepressants, it=20 isn't habit-forming."=20 Along the way he mentions a 1996 symposium that Eli Lilly = sponsored to=20 discuss this problem, and notes that one upshot of the meeting = was a=20 change in terminology, so that no one need use the word = withdrawal.=20 "The sanitized term 'antidepressant discontinuation syndrome' = is the kind=20 of well-funded obfuscation doctors and patients frequently = face when=20 trying to get honest, reliable information on these powerful = drugs," he=20 writes.=20 In the realm of euphemism, Glenmullen explains how Prozac can = claim=20 that only 2 to 5 percent of users experience sexual = dysfunction, although=20 other evidence places that number as high as 60 percent. The = team that=20 did the original research on the drug simply never raised the = issue. He=20 also shows how SSRI-related anxiety and jitters were minimized = for this=20 research by ignoring the fact that many of the patients = studied were also=20 taking sedatives to control those symptoms.=20 An especially disturbing section of the book delves into a = lawsuit brought=20 against Eli Lilly by survivors of a rampage by Joseph = Wesbecker, who=20 was the company's worst nightmare: a Prozac user who went on = the=20 rampage in 1989 with an AK-47. Fortunately for Eli Lilly, the = 1994 trial=20 was concurrent with the O.J. Simpson trial, the facts were = carefully=20 manipulated, a secret settlement was made between plaintiffs = and the=20 drug company even as the trial continued, and Prozac avoided a = warning=20 label about possibly violent or suicidal behavior. All the = particulars of this=20 remarkable legal travesty are laid out here.=20 Like much else in "Prozac Backlash," the facts of the = Wesbecker trial are=20 mostly available elsewhere. But the book's data come from a = great array=20 of diverse sources, and Glenmullen has done a prodigious job = of=20 assembling and illuminating it here. He argues cogently and = persuasively=20 for better research, truly independent research data, consumer = skepticism=20 about such drug company-generated phenomena as "National=20 Depression Awareness Day" and less readiness on the part of = doctors,=20 whose patients may see them only seldom because of insurance=20 constraints, to hand out antidepressants as an easy fix-it = without=20 follow-up visits or closer attention.=20 As a psychiatrist, Glenmullen shows a sharp bias for the = benefits of=20 therapy over psychopharmacology, and it is here that "Prozac = Backlash"=20 is weak. When he offers case studies from his own practice, = model=20 patients seem to respond magically to the doctor's Sherlock = Holmesian=20 acuity in pinpointing their problems. ("Do express elevators = symbolize the=20 fast track, which you have mixed feelings about?" he asks a = phobic=20 executive, whose fear forces him to walk up to and down from a = 43rd-floor office.)=20 But a lengthy section of the book discusses herbal substitutes = for=20 antidepressants, the importance of diet and exercise, 12-step = groups,=20 friends, family and community as important in overcoming = depression.=20 These things can work, he says -- even if as much money is = spent in the=20 United States on promoting wonder drugs to doctors than on all = medical=20 schooling and residency training combined.=20 --Boundary_(ID_+UpYQx9CIhb7oG99YC2/JA) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable ny times - 6/29/00 -- book review - anti- = prozac
hello -- one other thing:  a book review -- as = to mind=20 drugs on humans.  to be sure, humans, but with all the cross-over = to=20 dogs......
 
things to ponder.
margory
 

          June 29, = 2000

          'PROZAC = BACKLASH'=20

          = Overcoming the=20 Dangers of Prozac Zoloft, Paxil and Other
          = Antidepressants=20 With Safe, Effective Alternatives  By=20 Joseph Glenmullen, M.D.

         383=20 pages. Simon & Schuster. $25.

          = =B4Prozac Backlash=B4:=20 Exploring a Dark Side
          of = Depression=20 Remedies

          By JANET = MASLIN

          &nbs= p;   =20 From=20 a 1996 drug advertisement in The Journal of Clinical
          &nbs= p;   =20 Psychiatry:

          "A great = day for=20 Dad. A great day for Mom. A terrific day for the family. =
          Make it=20 happen. The Zoloft Saturday."

          For any = of the=20 estimated one in 10 Americans who have been exposed to
          Prozac=20 or the other, similar prescription medicines discussed in his =
         =20 blistering new book, Dr. Joseph Glenmullen offers something none = too=20
          welcome: = reason to=20 be anxious and depressed. Even for anyone
          = determined never=20 to read anything with "Prozac" in its title, he presents an =
         =20 important, deeply troubling examination of the means by which = these=20
          drugs = have become=20 so widely disseminated, and the possible long-term
          toll = they may=20 take.

          In a = book that=20 ensures he will never be the guest of honor at a
          = pharmaceutical=20 convention, Glenmullen, a clinical instructor in psychiatry =
          at=20 Harvard Medical School and a practicing psychiatrist, offers a =
         =20 wide-ranging and well-researched indictment. He begins by invoking = the=20
          track = record of=20 Thorazine, the tranquilizer that was greeted as a
          = psychological=20 panacea in the 1950s, later produced neurological side
          effects=20 in 40 percent of patients and was not burdened with an FDA =
          warning=20 label until 1985. What if Prozac and other, similar drugs that =
          have=20 begun to be linked with the same symptoms had a comparable =
          effect?=20

          In a = book as=20 readable as it is alarming, Glenmullen crystallizes the
         =20 evidence that these drugs, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors = (or=20
          SSRIs), = by=20 manipulating the influx of serotonin in the brain, can create a =
         =20 "backlash" by affecting the levels of other chemicals, notably = dopamine.=20
          He shows = how that=20 process can yield such Thorazine-associated fallout
          as = facial tics,=20 memory loss and body-stiffening parkinsonism. "The
          = unfortunate irony=20 is that drugs heavily promoted as correcting unproven
         =20 biochemical imbalances may be, in fact, causing imbalances and = brain=20
          damage," = he=20 asserts. "Will silent damage caused by a serotonin booster =
         =20 accelerate the aging process and make some people more prone to =
          develop=20 neurological symptoms later in life?"

          It can = and will be=20 argued that such problems are rare and that the
          = much-vaunted=20 uplifting effects of these drugs are more significant than =
          their=20 potential detriments. Even so, "Prozac Backlash" makes a tough, =
         =20 persuasive case that the drugs are more dangerous than generally=20
          = acknowledged, that=20 patients and doctors are insufficiently informed about
          the=20 risks and that drug companies devote vast amounts of money and =
          energy=20 to spin control.

          "When = discussing=20 brain cell damage caused by street drugs such as
          = amphetamines,=20 cocaine or Ecstasy, researchers speak in the gravest
          terms, = warning of=20 dread effects," writes Glenmullen, who presents
          abundant = evidence=20 of how so-called independent researchers may prove
          to be on = drug=20 company payrolls. "Only when referring to prescription
          drugs=20 do they suggest that pruning nerve cells might be 'therapeutic."' =

          The book = spends=20 much time on the important role of euphemism in
          Prozac's = public=20 relations. For instance, Glenmullen offers a lengthy
          = discussion of the=20 difficulty patients may experience in trying to wean
          = themselves from=20 these drugs, even if Eli Lilly, the company that
          = manufactures=20 Prozac, has run ads reading: "Like other antidepressants, it =
          isn't=20 habit-forming."

          Along = the way he=20 mentions a 1996 symposium that Eli Lilly sponsored to
          discuss=20 this problem, and notes that one upshot of the meeting was a =
          change=20 in terminology, so that no one need use the word withdrawal. =
          "The=20 sanitized term 'antidepressant discontinuation syndrome' is the = kind=20
          of = well-funded=20 obfuscation doctors and patients frequently face when
          trying=20 to get honest, reliable information on these powerful drugs," he=20
          writes.=20

          In the = realm of=20 euphemism, Glenmullen explains how Prozac can claim
          that = only 2 to 5=20 percent of users experience sexual dysfunction, although =
          other=20 evidence places that number as high as 60 percent. The team that=20
          did the = original=20 research on the drug simply never raised the issue. He
          also=20 shows how SSRI-related anxiety and jitters were minimized for = this=20
          research = by=20 ignoring the fact that many of the patients studied were also =
          taking=20 sedatives to control those symptoms.

          An = especially=20 disturbing section of the book delves into a lawsuit brought =
          against=20 Eli Lilly by survivors of a rampage by Joseph Wesbecker, who =
          was the=20 company's worst nightmare: a Prozac user who went on the =
          rampage=20 in 1989 with an AK-47. Fortunately for Eli Lilly, the 1994 trial=20
          was = concurrent=20 with the O.J. Simpson trial, the facts were carefully
         =20 manipulated, a secret settlement was made between plaintiffs and = the=20
          drug = company even=20 as the trial continued, and Prozac avoided a warning
          label = about=20 possibly violent or suicidal behavior. All the particulars of = this=20
          = remarkable legal=20 travesty are laid out here.

          Like = much else in=20 "Prozac Backlash," the facts of the Wesbecker trial are
          mostly=20 available elsewhere. But the book's data come from a great array=20
          of = diverse=20 sources, and Glenmullen has done a prodigious job of
          = assembling and=20 illuminating it here. He argues cogently and persuasively =
          for=20 better research, truly independent research data, consumer = skepticism=20
          about = such drug=20 company-generated phenomena as "National
          = Depression=20 Awareness Day" and less readiness on the part of doctors, =
          whose=20 patients may see them only seldom because of insurance
         =20 constraints, to hand out antidepressants as an easy fix-it = without=20
          = follow-up visits=20 or closer attention.

          As a = psychiatrist,=20 Glenmullen shows a sharp bias for the benefits of
          therapy = over=20 psychopharmacology, and it is here that "Prozac Backlash" =
          is=20 weak. When he offers case studies from his own practice, model =
         =20 patients seem to respond magically to the doctor's Sherlock = Holmesian=20
          acuity = in=20 pinpointing their problems. ("Do express elevators symbolize the=20
          fast = track, which=20 you have mixed feelings about?" he asks a phobic
          = executive, whose=20 fear forces him to walk up to and down from a
          = 43rd-floor=20 office.)

          But a = lengthy=20 section of the book discusses herbal substitutes for
          = antidepressants,=20 the importance of diet and exercise, 12-step groups,
          friends, = family=20 and community as important in overcoming depression.
          These = things can=20 work, he says -- even if as much money is spent in the
          United=20 States on promoting wonder drugs to doctors than on all medical =
         =20 schooling and residency training combined.

 

--Boundary_(ID_+UpYQx9CIhb7oG99YC2/JA)-- From: IN%"jkincaid@kawartha.com" "John Kincaid" 30-JUN-2000 07:26:38.03 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Stress hormone levels Dear All; Is data available on serum blood levels of stress hormones of farmed animals, specifically cattle, swine and chickens? If data is available could someone give me references to it? I would like to know what the levels are when not under stress as well as when subjected to stressors. Thank you John