From: IN%"dognponyshow@msn.com" "Dognponyshow MCGEE" 17-JUN-2003 08:13:15.89 To: IN%"ENeunteufel@gc.cuny.edu", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Evelyn, Could your cat be responding/reacting to the dog's frantic behavior? With 8 dogs, I feel fortunate to have only one that is thunder-phobic, and that is a very recent development (he is 8 and this is the first year he has been affected). None of the 6 cats are affected either by the storms or the dog's anxiety, however my green-wing macaw has transferred his "Stupid Dog" comment from when a dog bumps his cage to the older dog's anxiety attacks. Quite amusing to observe, although not to the dog, I'd bet. Kasie McGee >From: "Neunteufel, Evelyn" >To: 'cissy stamm ' , 'ethology ' > >Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia >Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:10 -0400 > >Cissy, >My cat usually disappears behind the sofa, when the thunder gets too loud. >I've only noticed this recently, probably because my dog's frantic running >around usually attracts most of my attention. (My dog is getting older and >not responding to the storms as much anymore, but just last night the cat >disappeared behind the sofa again.) > >Evelyn >Graduate Student at the City University of New York > >-----Original Message----- >From: cissy stamm >To: ethology >Sent: 6/10/2003 4:54 PM >Subject: Thunderstorm Phobia > >Has thunderstorm phobia been observed in any animals other than dogs? > >Thanks. > >Cissy _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" 17-JUN-2003 08:44:18.87 To: IN%"dognponyshow@msn.com" "Dognponyshow MCGEE", IN%"ENeunteufel@gc.cuny.edu", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Dear coleagues, I would like to "launch" a very simple question to everyone who has a dog with thuderstorm phobia in order to have, at least a first very simple theory to start working whit. Does someone, ANYONE of the owners of these dogs/cats in the family have some little fear of lightling? Maybe non-confesed because of shame? Please, be sincere! We all know dogs can smell fear. If this comes from someone higher in his group level he can easily become extremly frightened. I had a German dogo with this phobia... but I used to carry him to my competitions of olympic shooting where he was absolutely calm. (Sorry, I think I post this example already). However, my mother is afraid of tunderstorms because of a child's experience. Well just a thought... Your turn. Jordi Trilla ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net Lleida Spain Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ Dognponyshow MCGEE wrote: Evelyn, Could your cat be responding/reacting to the dog's frantic behavior? With 8 dogs, I feel fortunate to have only one that is thunder-phobic, and that is a very recent development (he is 8 and this is the first year he has been affected). None of the 6 cats are affected either by the storms or the dog's anxiety, however my green-wing macaw has transferred his "Stupid Dog" comment from when a dog bumps his cage to the older dog's anxiety attacks. Quite amusing to observe, although not to the dog, I'd bet. Kasie McGee >From: "Neunteufel, Evelyn" >To: 'cissy stamm ' , 'ethology ' > >Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia >Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:10 -0400 > >Cissy, >My cat usually disappears behind the sofa, when the thunder gets too loud. >I've only noticed this recently, probably because my dog's frantic running >around usually attracts most of my attention. (My dog is getting older and >not responding to the storms as much anymore, but just last night the cat >disappeared behind the sofa again.) > >Evelyn >Graduate Student at the City University of New York > >-----Original Message----- >From: cissy stamm >To: ethology >Sent: 6/10/2003 4:54 PM >Subject: Thunderstorm Phobia > >Has thunderstorm phobia been observed in any animals other than dogs? > >Thanks. > >Cissy _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From: IN%"stephanie@kroitor.ca" "Stephanie Kroitor" 17-JUN-2003 12:30:41.80 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Goat who smothers her kids Hello all, I have a goat who has for two years in a row killed some of her new born kids by lying on them. Last year she was left alone with her three new borns for about twenty minutes and during that time she squashed one of them. I assumed it was a accident. Then this year I arrived just after she had kidded and found one of three dead and flattened. I left her with the other two (who were already up and trying to suck) for about ten minutes and returned to find her lying on top of a second one. It was dead too. I have been trying to make sense out of this behaviour in order to come up with a strategy for next year. I need to either cull the goat or determine how long a period the new kids are at risk for so that I can supervise her contact with her kids after they are born. Interestingly she has been a super mother to her surviving kids both last year and this year. It seems to be newborns she can't handle. One theory I have is that their crying and neediness is so stressful to her that she kills the babies to end the stress. Another theory I have is that she thinks they're cold or unprotected and tries to lie on them to cover them in the same way they were surrounded by her while she was pregnant. She's a sociable and friendly goat and generally gets along well with other goats. She seemed to be very maternal to the kid she squashed this spring and I wasn't anticipating any problems when I left them alone. She seemed distressed at the death of the kids and kept looking for them and calling after I had removed them from the pen. This spring I put the surviving kid into a wooden box that she could reach her head into to touch the baby. I left the kid in the box for about 12 hours and took it out to let her feed it. After 12 hours the kid was bouncy enough that I figured she'd keep out of the way herself. It worked out fine and they've been a well adjusted mother and daughter ever since. Should I cull this goat on the grounds that it's a very undesirable trait and I don't want to risk her passing it on? Keep her and try drying and warming the kids before handing them over to her? Any ideas? Thanks for your input, Stephanie Kroitor Rouge Valley Farm From: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" 17-JUN-2003 12:58:26.38 To: IN%"stephanie@kroitor.ca" "Stephanie Kroitor", IN%"ENeunteufel@gc.cuny.edu", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia So... no theory so far :-) This reminds me a quote: "The great tragedy of Science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact." Thomas H. Huxley (1825 - 1895) Jordi Trilla ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net Lleida Spain Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ Stephanie Kroitor wrote: Dear Jordi, I have a dog with a thunderstorm phobia. I live alone and have absolutely no fear of thunderstorms myself. In fact I love thunderstorms. I find that if I arrive home during a thunderstorm my dog will be in an acute state of anxiety even though there as been nobody with him. I think he is more comfortable when I'm with him then he is when he is alone in a thunderstorm. I believe that the fear is entirely his own. Stephanie Kroitor Rouge Valley Farm Harrington, Quebec Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: Jordi Trilla To: Dognponyshow MCGEE ; ENeunteufel@gc.cuny.edu ; stammwood@rcn.com ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 10:43 AM Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Dear coleagues, I would like to "launch" a very simple question to everyone who has a dog with thuderstorm phobia in order to have, at least a first very simple theory to start working whit. Does someone, ANYONE of the owners of these dogs/cats in the family have some little fear of lightling? Maybe non-confesed because of shame? Please, be sincere! We all know dogs can smell fear. If this comes from someone higher in his group level he can easily become extremly frightened. I had a German dogo with this phobia... but I used to carry him to my competitions of olympic shooting where he was absolutely calm. (Sorry, I think I post this example already). However, my mother is afraid of tunderstorms because of a child' s experience. Well just a thought... Your turn. Jordi Trilla ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net Lleida Spain Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ Dognponyshow MCGEE wrote: Evelyn, Could your cat be responding/reacting to the dog's frantic behavior? With 8 dogs, I feel fortunate to have only one that is thunder-phobic, and that is a very recent development (he is 8 and this is the first year he has been affected). None of the 6 cats are affected either by the storms or the dog's anxiety, however my green-wing macaw has transferred his "Stupid Dog" comment fr om when a dog bumps his cage to the older dog's anxiety attacks. Quite amusing to observe, although not to the dog, I'd bet. Kasie McGee >From: "Neunteufel, Evelyn" >To: 'cissy stamm ' , 'ethology ' > >Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia >Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:10 -0400 > >Cissy, >My cat usually disappears behind the sofa, when the thunder gets too loud. >I've only noticed this recently, probably because my dog's frantic running >around usually attracts most of my attention. (My dog is getting older and >not responding to the storms as much anymore, but just last night the cat >disappeared behind the sofa again.) > >Evelyn >Graduate Student at the City University of New York > >-----Original Message----- >From: cissy stamm >To: ethology >Sent: 6/10/2003 4:54 PM >Subject: Thunderstorm Phobia > >Has thunderstorm phobia been observed in any animals other than dogs? > >Thanks. > >Cissy _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eli minate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From: IN%"chajeakie@wanadoo.fr" "chajeakie" 17-JUN-2003 13:43:41.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: references about Ritaline Dear coleagues I am vet in France and I am looking for some references about therapeutic effects of Ritaline in the treatment of Hyperkinetic Syndrom by Dogs. I know the drug is used in US with success in this case. Thank for your help. Best regards. Jean-Paul Chaurand. From: IN%"enoyes@zoo.uvm.edu" "Emily M. Noyes" 17-JUN-2003 14:07:16.33 To: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" "Jordi Trilla" CC: IN%"dognponyshow@msn.com" "Dognponyshow MCGEE", IN%"ENeunteufel@gc.cuny.edu", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Hello all - I have a 4 year old German Shepherd who is afraid of wind. There does not have to be any accompanying stormy conditions. He is fine when it rains, fine when it thunders, but if the wind blows he is pacing and panting. I would imagine that different dogs have different triggers - all of which can be lumped into a thunderstorm phobia. Have people on the list also seen dogs that have specific wind phobias? Do they eventually develop more phobias? Thanks for any input Emily Noyes On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Jordi Trilla wrote: > Dear coleagues, > > I would like to "launch" a very simple question to everyone who has a dog with thuderstorm phobia in order to have, at least a first very simple theory to start working whit. > > Does someone, ANYONE of the owners of these dogs/cats in the family have some little fear of lightling? Maybe non-confesed because of shame? Please, be sincere! > > We all know dogs can smell fear. If this comes from someone higher in his group level he can easily become extremly frightened. > > I had a German dogo with this phobia... but I used to carry him to my competitions of olympic shooting where he was absolutely calm. (Sorry, I think I post this example already). However, my mother is afraid of tunderstorms because of a child's experience. > > Well just a thought... Your turn. > > Jordi Trilla > ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net > Lleida > Spain > Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ > > > > > Dognponyshow MCGEE wrote: > Evelyn, > > Could your cat be responding/reacting to the dog's frantic behavior? > With 8 dogs, I feel fortunate to have only one that is thunder-phobic, and > that is a very recent development (he is 8 and this is the first year he has > been affected). None of the 6 cats are affected either by the storms or the > dog's anxiety, however my green-wing macaw has transferred his "Stupid Dog" > comment from when a dog bumps his cage to the older dog's anxiety attacks. > Quite amusing to observe, although not to the dog, I'd bet. > > Kasie McGee > > > >From: "Neunteufel, Evelyn" > >To: 'cissy stamm ' , 'ethology ' > > > >Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia > >Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:10 -0400 > > > >Cissy, > >My cat usually disappears behind the sofa, when the thunder gets too loud. > >I've only noticed this recently, probably because my dog's frantic running > >around usually attracts most of my attention. (My dog is getting older and > >not responding to the storms as much anymore, but just last night the cat > >disappeared behind the sofa again.) > > > >Evelyn > >Graduate Student at the City University of New York > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: cissy stamm > >To: ethology > >Sent: 6/10/2003 4:54 PM > >Subject: Thunderstorm Phobia > > > >Has thunderstorm phobia been observed in any animals other than dogs? > > > >Thanks. > > > >Cissy > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > From: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" 17-JUN-2003 14:36:20.67 To: IN%"enoyes@zoo.uvm.edu" "Emily M. Noyes", IN%"dognponyshow@msn.com", IN%"ENeunteufel@gc.cuny.edu", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Both phobias related with noise..... Hmmmm......... Does anyone knows if some siblings of your phobic dog have similar problems. That could lead us to it's breeding period..... Jordi Trilla "Emily M. Noyes" wrote: Hello all - I have a 4 year old German Shepherd who is afraid of wind. There does not have to be any accompanying stormy conditions. He is fine when it rains, fine when it thunders, but if the wind blows he is pacing and panting. I would imagine that different dogs have different triggers - all of which can be lumped into a thunderstorm phobia. Have people on the list also seen dogs that have specific wind phobias? Do they eventually develop more phobias? Thanks for any input Emily Noyes On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Jordi Trilla wrote: > Dear coleagues, > > I would like to "launch" a very simple question to everyone who has a dog with thuderstorm phobia in order to have, at least a first very simple theory to start working whit. > > Does someone, ANYONE of the owners of these dogs/cats in the family have some little fear of lightling? Maybe non-confesed because of shame? Please, be sincere! > > We all know dogs can smell fear. If this comes from someone higher in his group level he can easily become extremly frightened. > > I had a German dogo with this phobia... but I used to carry him to my competitions of olympic shooting where he was absolutely calm. (Sorry, I think I post this example already). However, my mother is afraid of tunderstorms because of a child's experience. > > Well just a thought... Your turn. > > Jordi Trilla > ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net > Lleida > Spain > Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ > > > > > Dognponyshow MCGEE wrote: > Evelyn, > > Could your cat be responding/reacting to the dog's frantic behavior? > With 8 dogs, I feel fortunate to have only one that is thunder-phobic, and > that is a very recent development (he is 8 and this is the first year he has > been affected). None of the 6 cats are affected either by the storms or the > dog's anxiety, however my green-wing macaw has transferred his "Stupid Dog" > comment from when a dog bumps his cage to the older dog's anxiety attacks. > Quite amusing to observe, although not to the dog, I'd bet. > > Kasie McGee > > > >From: "Neunteufel, Evelyn" > >To: 'cissy stamm ' , 'ethology ' > > > >Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia > >Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:10 -0400 > > > >Cissy, > >My cat usually disappears behind the sofa, when the thunder gets too loud. > >I've only noticed this recently, probably because my dog's frantic running > >around usually attracts most of my attention. (My dog is getting older and > >not responding to the storms as much anymore, but just last night the cat > >disappeared behind the sofa again.) > > > >Evelyn > >Graduate Student at the City University of New York > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: cissy stamm > >To: ethology > >Sent: 6/10/2003 4:54 PM > >Subject: Thunderstorm Phobia > > > >Has thunderstorm phobia been observed in any animals other than dogs? > > > >Thanks. > > > >Cissy > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 17-JUN-2003 14:38:27.29 To: IN%"enoyes@zoo.uvm.edu" "Emily M. Noyes" CC: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" "Jordi Trilla", IN%"dognponyshow@msn.com" "Dognponyshow MCGEE", IN%"ENeunteufel@gc.cuny.edu", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Hi, A reaction to cues that predict a phobic event are a common element of phobia. I see these sorts of reactions with hail, rain, wind, sudden changes of lighting [clouds going over], moving trees [effect of wind but not noise], the whistle of fireworks before they explode [which generalises to other similar noises such as squeaky brakes]. All sorts of things. Jon On Tuesday, June 17, 2003, at 09:06 pm, Emily M. Noyes wrote: > > Hello all - > > I have a 4 year old German Shepherd who is afraid of wind. There does > not > have to be any accompanying stormy conditions. He is fine when it > rains, > fine when it thunders, but if the wind blows he is pacing and panting. > > I would imagine that different dogs have different triggers - all of > which > can be lumped into a thunderstorm phobia. Have people on the list also > seen dogs that have specific wind phobias? Do they eventually develop > more phobias? > > Thanks for any input > > Emily Noyes > > On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Jordi Trilla wrote: > >> Dear coleagues, >> >> I would like to "launch" a very simple question to everyone who has a >> dog with thuderstorm phobia in order to have, at least a first very >> simple theory to start working whit. >> >> Does someone, ANYONE of the owners of these dogs/cats in the family >> have some little fear of lightling? Maybe non-confesed because of >> shame? Please, be sincere! >> >> We all know dogs can smell fear. If this comes from someone higher in >> his group level he can easily become extremly frightened. >> >> I had a German dogo with this phobia... but I used to carry him to my >> competitions of olympic shooting where he was absolutely calm. >> (Sorry, I think I post this example already). However, my mother is >> afraid of tunderstorms because of a child's experience. >> >> Well just a thought... Your turn. >> >> Jordi Trilla >> ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: >> jordi@trilla.net >> Lleida >> Spain >> Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group >> euraptors - European Birds of Prey: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ >> >> >> >> >> Dognponyshow MCGEE wrote: >> Evelyn, >> >> Could your cat be responding/reacting to the dog's frantic behavior? >> With 8 dogs, I feel fortunate to have only one that is >> thunder-phobic, and >> that is a very recent development (he is 8 and this is the first year >> he has >> been affected). None of the 6 cats are affected either by the storms >> or the >> dog's anxiety, however my green-wing macaw has transferred his >> "Stupid Dog" >> comment from when a dog bumps his cage to the older dog's anxiety >> attacks. >> Quite amusing to observe, although not to the dog, I'd bet. >> >> Kasie McGee >> >> >>> From: "Neunteufel, Evelyn" >>> To: 'cissy stamm ' , 'ethology ' >>> >>> Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia >>> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:10 -0400 >>> >>> Cissy, >>> My cat usually disappears behind the sofa, when the thunder gets too >>> loud. >>> I've only noticed this recently, probably because my dog's frantic >>> running >>> around usually attracts most of my attention. (My dog is getting >>> older and >>> not responding to the storms as much anymore, but just last night >>> the cat >>> disappeared behind the sofa again.) >>> >>> Evelyn >>> Graduate Student at the City University of New York >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cissy stamm >>> To: ethology >>> Sent: 6/10/2003 4:54 PM >>> Subject: Thunderstorm Phobia >>> >>> Has thunderstorm phobia been observed in any animals other than dogs? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Cissy >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. >> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus >> > > Best wishes, Jon From: IN%"mad@nofeardavis.org" "Maren Plagens" 17-JUN-2003 14:43:12.86 To: IN%"enoyes@zoo.uvm.edu" "Emily M. Noyes" CC: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" "Jordi Trilla", IN%"dognponyshow@msn.com" "Dognponyshow MCGEE", IN%"ENeunteufel@gc.cuny.edu", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia I have worked (trained for management and reduction of fear responses, when the dog was endangering itself or its people) with a lot of dogs with weather related anxieties and have seen only one with wind phobia. The interesting thing here is that off all the dogs I have worked with I have found only 1 that an owner could relate to a certain event or reasoning for the fear. This dog was in a house when it was struck by lightning, the whole family and the dog received some fairly significant electrocution. I have often wondered if the phobia could go back to some event during the "fear period" of development. But so many dogs are affected later in life. Then I have questioned genetics, but I personally have not seen any evidence of genetics playing a role (doesn't mean it doesn't). I have also thought about the response to human fears, but that is difficult to deal with proving. I have wondered a lot of hypotheses but could not find enough consistencies to even believe in one. Maybe it is one for some dogs and another for others Maren Plagens Emily M. Noyes wrote: >Hello all - > >I have a 4 year old German Shepherd who is afraid of wind. There does not >have to be any accompanying stormy conditions. He is fine when it rains, >fine when it thunders, but if the wind blows he is pacing and panting. > >I would imagine that different dogs have different triggers - all of which >can be lumped into a thunderstorm phobia. Have people on the list also >seen dogs that have specific wind phobias? Do they eventually develop >more phobias? > >Thanks for any input > >Emily Noyes > >On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Jordi Trilla wrote: > > > >>Dear coleagues, >> >>I would like to "launch" a very simple question to everyone who has a dog with thuderstorm phobia in order to have, at least a first very simple theory to start working whit. >> >>Does someone, ANYONE of the owners of these dogs/cats in the family have some little fear of lightling? Maybe non-confesed because of shame? Please, be sincere! >> >>We all know dogs can smell fear. If this comes from someone higher in his group level he can easily become extremly frightened. >> >>I had a German dogo with this phobia... but I used to carry him to my competitions of olympic shooting where he was absolutely calm. (Sorry, I think I post this example already). However, my mother is afraid of tunderstorms because of a child's experience. >> >>Well just a thought... Your turn. >> >>Jordi Trilla >>ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net >>Lleida >>Spain >>Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ >> >> >> >> >>Dognponyshow MCGEE wrote: >>Evelyn, >> >>Could your cat be responding/reacting to the dog's frantic behavior? >>With 8 dogs, I feel fortunate to have only one that is thunder-phobic, and >>that is a very recent development (he is 8 and this is the first year he has >>been affected). None of the 6 cats are affected either by the storms or the >>dog's anxiety, however my green-wing macaw has transferred his "Stupid Dog" >>comment from when a dog bumps his cage to the older dog's anxiety attacks. >>Quite amusing to observe, although not to the dog, I'd bet. >> >>Kasie McGee >> >> >> >> >>>From: "Neunteufel, Evelyn" >>>To: 'cissy stamm ' , 'ethology ' >>> >>>Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia >>>Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:10 -0400 >>> >>>Cissy, >>>My cat usually disappears behind the sofa, when the thunder gets too loud. >>>I've only noticed this recently, probably because my dog's frantic running >>>around usually attracts most of my attention. (My dog is getting older and >>>not responding to the storms as much anymore, but just last night the cat >>>disappeared behind the sofa again.) >>> >>>Evelyn >>>Graduate Student at the City University of New York >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: cissy stamm >>>To: ethology >>>Sent: 6/10/2003 4:54 PM >>>Subject: Thunderstorm Phobia >>> >>>Has thunderstorm phobia been observed in any animals other than dogs? >>> >>>Thanks. >>> >>>Cissy >>> >>> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From: IN%"Shetts@aol.com" 17-JUN-2003 14:47:42.67 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia In a message dated 06/17/2003 2:39:48 PM Mountain Daylight Time, jordi@trilla.net writes: > Does anyone knows if some siblings of your phobic dog have similar > problems. That could lead us to it's breeding period..... > In my experience, thunder phobias cannot be attributed to any single factor , and I've worked with literally hundreds of them over the years in my consulting practice. On rare occassion, they can be traced directly back to a dog having a traumatic experience, such as being trapped on a mountain top while hiking with his owner during a storm but this is the exception, not the rule. Any behavior , or behavior problem is always a co-action between genetic and environmental factors, as even in the traumatic example, the dog may have been more prone to react strongly given its genetic makeup. A wealth of research indicates that tendencies toward fearful behavior have genetic influences but how they are manifest obviously depends on many factors. The factors that contribute to the development of thunder phobias are as yet poorly understood. I've seen littermates in the same household where one is afraid and the other isn't. Best Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D. Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist Go to our website at www.AnimalBehaviorAssociates.com and join our mailing list to receive our monthly free ezine (first issue July) and information about other products and services 303-932-9095 fax 303-932-2298 From: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" 17-JUN-2003 15:07:46.96 To: IN%"chajeakie@wanadoo.fr" "chajeakie" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: references about Ritaline Try: http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/may97.html Cissy chajeakie wrote: > Dear coleagues > > > > I am vet in France and I am looking for some references about > therapeutic effects of Ritaline in the treatment of Hyperkinetic Syndrom > by Dogs. I know the drug is used in US with success in this case. > > Thank for your help. > > Best regards. > > > > Jean-Paul Chaurand. > From: IN%"gt7684b@prism.gatech.edu" "Charlotte G. Slater" 17-JUN-2003 15:12:28.98 To: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Neither myself nor my husband have any sort of fear of thunderstorms, in fact, we both love them and look forward to a good booming downpour like we experienced in South Africa as children. My dog on the other hand does not respond so well to the storms. She was birthed and raised by me, and has no traumatizing events associated with any sort of loud noise or electrical storms. When the storms start, she becomes frantic and inconsolable, desperately seeking shelter. I also have a cat who displays the same behavior to a lesser degree. I do not have a full history on the cat, since he was a shelter cat we adopted as an adult. I hope this helps with your theory! =) -- ~Charlotte Greer Slater School of Psychology GEORGIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY The cat in my lap said: "si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes" Quoting Jordi Trilla : > So... no theory so far :-) > > This reminds me a quote: > > "The great tragedy of Science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an > ugly fact." > Thomas H. Huxley (1825 - 1895) > > Jordi Trilla > ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net > Lleida > Spain > Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - > European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ > > > Stephanie Kroitor wrote: > Dear Jordi, > > I have a dog with a thunderstorm phobia. I live alone and have absolutely no > fear of thunderstorms myself. In fact I love thunderstorms. I find that if I > arrive home during a thunderstorm my dog will be in an acute state of anxiety > even though there as been nobody with him. I think he is more comfortable > when I'm with him then he is when he is alone in a thunderstorm. I believe > that the fear is entirely his own. > > Stephanie Kroitor > Rouge Valley Farm > Harrington, Quebec > Canada > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jordi Trilla > To: Dognponyshow MCGEE ; ENeunteufel@gc.cuny.edu ; stammwood@rcn.com ; > Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 10:43 AM > Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia > > > Dear coleagues, > > I would like to "launch" a very simple question to everyone who has a dog > with thuderstorm phobia in order to have, at least a first very simple theory > to start working whit. > > Does someone, ANYONE of the owners of these dogs/cats in the family have some > little fear of lightling? Maybe non-confesed because of shame? Please, be > sincere! > > We all know dogs can smell fear. If this comes from someone higher in his > group level he can easily become extremly frightened. > > I had a German dogo with this phobia... but I used to carry him to my > competitions of olympic shooting where he was absolutely calm. (Sorry, I > think I post this example already). However, my mother is afraid of > tunderstorms because of a child' s experience. > > Well just a thought... Your turn. > > Jordi Trilla > ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net > Lleida > Spain > Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - > European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ > > > > > Dognponyshow MCGEE wrote: > Evelyn, > > Could your cat be responding/reacting to the dog's frantic behavior? > With 8 dogs, I feel fortunate to have only one that is thunder-phobic, and > that is a very recent development (he is 8 and this is the first year he has > > been affected). None of the 6 cats are affected either by the storms or the > dog's anxiety, however my green-wing macaw has transferred his "Stupid Dog" > comment fr om when a dog bumps his cage to the older dog's anxiety attacks. > Quite amusing to observe, although not to the dog, I'd bet. > > Kasie McGee > > > >From: "Neunteufel, Evelyn" > >To: 'cissy stamm ' , 'ethology ' > > > >Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia > >Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:10 -0400 > > > >Cissy, > >My cat usually disappears behind the sofa, when the thunder gets too loud. > >I've only noticed this recently, probably because my dog's frantic running > >around usually attracts most of my attention. (My dog is getting older and > >not responding to the storms as much anymore, but just last night the cat > >disappeared behind the sofa again.) > > > >Evelyn > >Graduate Student at the City University of New York > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: cissy stamm > >To: ethology > >Sent: 6/10/2003 4:54 PM > >Subject: Thunderstorm Phobia > > > >Has thunderstorm phobia been observed in any animals other than dogs? > > > >Thanks. > > > >Cissy > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eli minate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 17-JUN-2003 16:19:41.62 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: thunder/wind phobia The change in electrical fields may make an animal more sensitive to the thunderclap. Wind can also be accompanied by changes in ion charges--like the Santa Ana wind or the foehn wind that makes people irritable. We must be careful about assuming which part of a complex situation triggers the phobia. Us humans are sensory impaired compared to many animals. Many things might be detectable to them that we are unaware of and be a critical element to trigger a behavior. Changing the water in an aquarium can often trigger fish to spawn. Julie Alexander From: IN%"edmeades@bigpond.com" "Edmeades" 17-JUN-2003 19:50:42.54 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia I have often been intrigued the late onset of thunderstorm phobias in many dogs. I have wondered whether the problem could be attributable to physical changes in the ears as a dog ages. Has any research been carried out to explore this possibility? Regards Karen Edmeades (B.Psych.) -----Original Message----- From: Shetts@aol.com [mailto:Shetts@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 4:47 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Thunderstorm Phobia In a message dated 06/17/2003 2:39:48 PM Mountain Daylight Time, jordi@trilla.net writes: Does anyone knows if some siblings of your phobic dog have similar problems. That could lead us to it's breeding period..... In my experience, thunder phobias cannot be attributed to any single factor , and I've worked with literally hundreds of them over the years in my consulting practice. On rare occassion, they can be traced directly back to a dog having a traumatic experience, such as being trapped on a mountain top while hiking with his owner during a storm but this is the exception, not the rule. Any behavior , or behavior problem is always a co-action between genetic and environmental factors, as even in the traumatic example, the dog may have been more prone to react strongly given its genetic makeup. A wealth of research indicates that tendencies toward fearful behavior have genetic influences but how they are manifest obviously depends on many factors. The factors that contribute to the development of thunder phobias are as yet poorly understood. I've seen littermates in the same household where one is afraid and the other isn't. Best Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D. Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist Go to our website at www.AnimalBehaviorAssociates.com and join our mailing list to receive our monthly free ezine (first issue July) and information about other products and services 303-932-9095 fax 303-932-2298 From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 18-JUN-2003 03:01:35.14 To: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" CC: IN%"chajeakie@wanadoo.fr" "chajeakie", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: references about Ritaline I read the article in BehavourRx and find it odd that the 'simple test' that was used to determine whether the dog was hyperkinetic was the administration of the same drug also used to treat the condition. This seems merely to be a means of diagnosing 'ritalin deficiency' ;-) A number of other drugs [with different modes of action] are also known to have an effect on hyperkinesis so where do they fit in? Active tests such as the administration of pyridostigmine or ACTH are used in veterinary medicine, but in these situations the drug has a very specific and well understood target and effect. The same surely cannot be said of Ritalin? How do others feel about this? Robin?? I would also be interested in the parallels between the condition treated in this example and that in human medicine, if anyone has any information. In man the equivalent condition to hyperkinesis has persistent effects into adulthood and cannot be treated with a short course of drugs. The BehaviorRx case was on Ritalin for only a few weeks. Hopefully it was also on a behavioural modification plan too? Jon On Tuesday, June 17, 2003, at 10:04 pm, cissy stamm wrote: > Try: > > http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/may97.html > > Cissy > > chajeakie wrote: > >> Dear coleagues >> I am vet in France and I am looking for some references about >> therapeutic effects of Ritaline in the treatment of Hyperkinetic >> Syndrom by Dogs. I know the drug is used in US with success in this >> case. >> Thank for your help. >> Best regards. >> Jean-Paul Chaurand. > > > Best wishes, Jon From: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" 18-JUN-2003 05:27:21.44 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Dear Karen and all, These last days I've been looking a lot trying to find out the reasons and I found absolutly nothing. Some of us have been formulating some hypotesys, most of them almost discarted. I'll try to remember them and, please, forgive me and help me if I forguet someone: - Genetical + environmental factors. (Dr. Suzanne Hetts) - Fear to the "event" (sorry for my English) from someone in his group situated in a higher position. (Myself) - Fear from the mother during it's breeding period. (Myself) - Physical changes in the ears of the dogs aging. (You) - Traumatic experience (only punctual explanation). (Dr. Suzanne Hetts) I'm sorry if I forget someone. Please help me to remember. This way at least we have something (even poor yet) to start working with instead of keeping only with the brainstorming (I hope this kinda storm doesn't causes any phobia, hehehe). Jordi Trilla Lleida (Spain) I have often been intrigued the late onset of thunderstorm phobias in many dogs. I have wondered whether the problem could be attributable to physical changes in the ears as a dog ages. Has any research been carried out to explore this possibility? Regards Karen Edmeades (B.Psych.) -----Original Message----- From: Shetts@aol.com [mailto:Shetts@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 4:47 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Thunderstorm Phobia In a message dated 06/17/2003 2:39:48 PM Mountain Daylight Time, jordi@trilla.net writes: Does anyone knows if some siblings of your phobic dog have similar problems. That could lead us to it's breeding period..... Jordi Trilla ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net Lleida Spain Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ From: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" 18-JUN-2003 05:52:04.58 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia So, we have so far: - Medical problems and/or disorders that affect the mood (Jon Bowen) - Senility (My German Dogo start developing thunderstorm phobia at 1year and a half old...) - Genetical + environmental factors. (Dr. Suzanne Hetts) - Fear to the "event" (sorry for my English) from someone in his group situated in a higher position. (Jordi Trilla) - Fear from the mother during it's breeding period. (Jordi Trilla) - Physical changes in the ears of the dogs aging. (Karen Edmeades) - Traumatic experience (only punctual explanation). (Dr. Suzanne Hetts) Jordi Trilla ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net Lleida Spain Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ From: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" 18-JUN-2003 06:17:30.98 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Hi Jon! No, I just was trying to get back to the original question that someone formulated and that started this discussion. "What provoques dogs' thunderstorm phobia?" and "Does other animals but dogs suffer from this phobia?" and trying to find, if possible, a more general theory. (BTW, My German Dogo passed away years ago. He was the only dog with this phobia i ever had) Related with the info in the books you kindly offer me, I infere that there is no "general hypotesis" possible, right? Jordi Trilla Jon Bowen wrote: Hi Jordi, The mention of senility was related to the person who asked about their dog who has started to suffer from phobia suddenly when it became old. Medical issues likewise. Are you looking for specific reasons why your own dog has a phobia, or whether human behaviour affects phobia or something else? I am not sure why you are compiling this list? There are numerous books on dog behaviour that list many of the causes of noise phobias and I can send you some rough notes on the subject if you want. Best wishes, Jon On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 12:51 pm, Jordi Trilla wrote: > So, we have so far: > > - Medical problems and/or disorders that affect the mood (Jon Bowen) > > - Senility > (My German Dogo start developing thunderstorm phobia at 1year and a > half old...) > > - Genetical + environmental factors. (Dr. Suzanne Hetts) > - Fear to the "event" (sorry for my English) from someone in his group > situated in a higher position. (Jordi Trilla) > - Fear from the mother during it's breeding period. (Jordi Trilla) > - Physical changes in the ears of the dogs aging. (Karen Edmeades) > - Traumatic experience (only punctual explanation). (Dr. Suzanne Hetts) > > > Jordi Trilla > ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net > Lleida > Spain > Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors > - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ > Best wishes, Jon From: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" 18-JUN-2003 06:45:48.37 To: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" CC: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Actually, what started the discussion was a question I asked about whether or not T-storm phobias have been observed in other animals besides dogs. So far it's been rabbits and cats. I have a T-storm phobic Caucasian Ovcharka. She developed the phobia at 3 after having been left alone in the house during a particularly violent storm. Melatonin has helped somewhat if I know a storm is coming and can give it to her about an hour in advance. Otherwise, she gets extremely distressed and wants to go into the car which seems to calm her. Cissy Jordi Trilla wrote: > Hi Jon! > > > > No, I just was trying to get back to the original question that someone > formulated and that started this discussion. "What provoques dogs' > thunderstorm phobia?" and "Does other animals but dogs suffer from this > phobia?" and trying to find, if possible, a more general theory. > > > > (BTW, My German Dogo passed away years ago. He was the only dog with > this phobia i ever had) > > > > Related with the info in the books you kindly offer me, I infere that > there is no "general hypotesis" possible, right? > > > > Jordi Trilla > > > > > > > > Jon Bowen wrote: > > Hi Jordi, > > The mention of senility was related to the person who asked about their > dog who has started to suffer from phobia suddenly when it became old. > Medical issues likewise. > > Are you looking for specific reasons why your own dog has a phobia, or > whether human behaviour affects phobia or something else? > I am not sure why you are compiling this list? > > There are numerous books on dog behaviour that list many of the causes > of noise phobias and I can send you some rough notes on the subject if > you want. > > Best wishes, > > Jon > > > On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 12:51 pm, Jordi Trilla wrote: > > > So, we have so far: > > > > - Medical problems and/or disorders that affect the mood (Jon Bowen) > > > > - Senility > > (My German Dogo start developing thunderstorm phobia at 1year and a > > half old...) > > > > - Genetical + environmental factors. (Dr. Suzanne Hetts) > > - Fear to the "event" (sorry for my English) from someone in his > group > > situated in a higher position. (Jordi Trilla) > > - Fear from the mother during it's breeding period. (Jordi Trilla) > > - Physical changes in the ears of the dogs aging. (Karen Edmeades) > > - Traumatic experience (only punctual explanation). (Dr. Suzanne > Hetts) > > > > > > Jordi Trilla > > ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: > jordi@trilla.net > > Lleida > > Spain > > Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group > euraptors > > - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ > > > Best wishes, > > Jon > From: IN%"JDohner@aol.com" 18-JUN-2003 07:46:38.63 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia I have a T-storm phobic corgi. He began to show this distress after he was 2 years old. He seems to sense approaching storms before we do (of course) and become nervous and clingy. Recently we have used a holistic product called Mellow Bones which contains herbs (Long Gu, Mu Li, Dang Gui, Da Zao, Tian Zhu Huang) which are supposed to calm anxious dogs. I have no knowledge of their actual effectiveness but on the surface they seem to be helping if we catch him in the pre-storm phase. We also ignore his behavior during storms - heavy panting and anxiety. I have wondered why he developed this fear. He is also now afraid of gunshots and fireworks too. Could repeated exposure to these loud noises over time sensitize him? Could he be associating one particularly disturbing incident with the other loud noises? None of us are afraid of storms, we enjoy sitting outside on the porch and watching them too. We are unaware of any incident that caused this reaction either. Jan Dohner The Encyclopedia of Historic and Endangered Livestock and Poultry Breeds Yale University Press From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 18-JUN-2003 07:58:50.07 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Dear All, I'm interested in the use of the term 'phobia' in these messages. I thought the definition of a phobia was a persistent IRRATIONAL fear of something. Does this mean that these animals are behaving irrationaly, and therefore is this evidence of rational thought in these animals? Why are people using the term 'phobia' instead of 'fear of'? Regards, Chris From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 18-JUN-2003 08:13:55.79 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Absolutely! For precisely the reason you mention, the human definition of phobia does not apply in the case of animal patients. So instead it is better to use observations of the behavioural characteristics of the fear response which differentiate 'phobic' from 'normal' fear. For example, the relative persistence of phobic fear or the intensity and general lack of gradation of response to the severity of threat [phobic fear is an 'all or nothing' rather than a graded response]. Jon On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 02:57 pm, Chris Sherwin wrote: > > Dear All, > > I'm interested in the use of the term 'phobia' in these messages. I > thought the > definition of a phobia was a persistent IRRATIONAL fear of something. > Does this > mean that these animals are behaving irrationaly, and therefore is > this evidence of > rational thought in these animals? Why are people using the term > 'phobia' instead > of 'fear of'? > > Regards, > > Chris > > > From: IN%"Gerflannigan@aol.com" 18-JUN-2003 08:32:58.37 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: phobias Hi Chris: Phobias are an irrational fear usually coming from a human perspective. I generally think of excessive (or beyond a normal level of) fearful behavior in my definition of phobia. Fears are normal. Fear is an adaptive emotional response that prevents animals from doing something stupid that could hurt them. Phobias are excessive fears demonstrated in an out of context, maladaptive way. Other animals have thunderstorm phobias. For instance, cats can be excessively fearful of storms. However they tend not to seek out members of their social group (no advantage given by other cats) as do more social animals such as people or dogs. They just hide during storms so we do not notice. Many dogs are fearful of noises. In a study of separation anxiety, 25% of dogs in the control group were fearful of noise such that the owner noted it. Getting out of the way of a thunderstorm makes sense in wild or feral dogs. At what point does it become maladaptive or a phobia? Just some rambling thoughts, Gerry _________________________________________________________________ Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc Carolina Veterinary Specialists Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina 336-632-0605 (Voice) 336-632-0703 (Fax) gerflannigan@aol.com From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 18-JUN-2003 08:57:13.60 To: IN%"Gerflannigan@aol.com" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: phobias Hi Gerrard, I agree with you that fears are normal and that it makes adaptive sense for animals to be fearful of loud noises and perhaps sudden bursts of light. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was found that the vast majority of animals (including humans) showed indications of heightened awareness (low-grade fear) when in a thunderstorm (e.g. slightly elevated heart rate, adrenal response, attentivenes). So, the issue really is, when does fear become a 'phobia'? I thought that at the beginning of your message, you were arguing against the use of the word phobia for fear of thunderstorms, but then halfway through you used the 'ph'-word again! With your definition, how does one decide when it is normal fear, or a phobia? Does this have any bearing on whether/what treatment is prescribed in such cases? Regards, Chris On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Gerflannigan@aol.com wrote: > Hi Chris: > Phobias are an irrational fear usually coming from a human perspective. I > generally think of excessive (or beyond a normal level of) fearful behavior > in > my definition of phobia. Fears are normal. Fear is an adaptive emotional > response that prevents animals from doing something stupid that could hurt > them. > Phobias are excessive fears demonstrated in an out of context, maladaptive > way. > > Other animals have thunderstorm phobias. For instance, cats can be > excessively fearful of storms. However they tend not to seek out members of > their > social group (no advantage given by other cats) as do more social animals > such as > people or dogs. They just hide during storms so we do not notice. Many dogs > are fearful of noises. In a study of separation anxiety, 25% of dogs in the > control group were fearful of noise such that the owner noted it. Getting > out > of the way of a thunderstorm makes sense in wild or feral dogs. At what > point > does it become maladaptive or a phobia? Just some rambling thoughts, > Gerry > > _________________________________________________________________ > Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc > Carolina Veterinary Specialists > Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina > 336-632-0605 (Voice) > 336-632-0703 (Fax) > gerflannigan@aol.com > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology, Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, BS40 5DU, U.K. Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"rattitude@angelfire.com" 18-JUN-2003 09:04:54.78 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Human phobias are also predominantly of inherently dangerous things (snakes, heights etc). What is 'irrational' is the high intensity and setting ( e.g. exhibiting extreme fear of storms whilst in a secure shelter). I think that the animal cases mentioned can be called 'phobias'. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" 18-JUN-2003 09:17:26.75 To: IN%"rattitude@angelfire.com" CC: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Hi Emily, Perhaps I have misunderstood the use of the word 'irrational' in this case. I thought this related to excessive fear generated when someone could rationalise that no harm would come to them, for example when looking at pictures of spiders, or when confronted with a snake that was known to be non-toxic. Having said this, in the example you give 'exhibiting extreme fear of storms whilst in a secure shelter' this presumes the 'phobic' animal knows it is in a secure shelter...do they really know this? Regards Chris On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:04:45 +0000 emily patterson wrote: > > Human phobias are also predominantly of inherently dangerous things (snakes, > heights etc). What is 'irrational' is the high intensity and setting ( e.g. > exhibiting extreme fear of storms whilst in a secure shelter). I think that > the animal cases mentioned can be called 'phobias'. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > ............................................................. Dr C.M. Sherwin UFAW Research Fellow (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Centre for Behavioural Biology, Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Langford, BS40 5DU, U.K. Tel: [44] (0)117 928 9486 Fax: [44] (0)117 928 9582 email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"Gerflannigan@aol.com" 18-JUN-2003 09:33:29.68 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: phobias Chris: I definitely use the term phobia with respect to animals. Chris Sherman wrote: >With your definition, how does one decide when it is normal fear, or a phobia?< It is difficult to determine the difference. When a behavior interrupts normal functioning or interferes with the owner's relationship with the dog, it is maladaptive. I realize that we are getting into grey areas here. For instance, many dogs destroy the home or hurt themselves if left alone during a thunderstorm. Otherwise, she gets extremely distressed and wants to go into the car > which seems to calm her. > > Cissy From: IN%"noofies@tir.com" "Nancy" 18-JUN-2003 10:06:32.21 To: IN%"jordi@trilla.net", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia One more - changes in the electrical charge in the air. Static electricity building up in the coat, discharging at random, administering small shocks. Dogs with t-storm phobia generally seek out hiding places which are grounding - next to the commode or tub, on a tile floor, etc. (See _Dogs Behaving Badly_, Nicholas Dodmann) Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: Jordi Trilla To: Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:27 AM Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia > Dear Karen and all, > > These last days I've been looking a lot trying to find out the reasons and I found absolutly nothing. Some of us have been formulating some hypotesys, most of them almost discarted. I'll try to remember them and, please, forgive me and help me if I forguet someone: > > - Genetical + environmental factors. (Dr. Suzanne Hetts) > - Fear to the "event" (sorry for my English) from someone in his group situated in a higher position. (Myself) > - Fear from the mother during it's breeding period. (Myself) > - Physical changes in the ears of the dogs aging. (You) > - Traumatic experience (only punctual explanation). (Dr. Suzanne Hetts) > > I'm sorry if I forget someone. Please help me to remember. This way at least we have something (even poor yet) to start working with instead of keeping only with the brainstorming (I hope this kinda storm doesn't causes any phobia, hehehe). > > Jordi Trilla > Lleida (Spain) > > I have often been intrigued the late onset of thunderstorm phobias in many > dogs. I have wondered whether the problem could be attributable to physical > changes in the ears as a dog ages. Has any research been carried out to > explore this possibility? > > Regards > Karen Edmeades (B.Psych.) > -----Original Message----- > From: Shetts@aol.com [mailto:Shetts@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 4:47 AM > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Thunderstorm Phobia > > > In a message dated 06/17/2003 2:39:48 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > jordi@trilla.net writes: > > > Does anyone knows if some siblings of your phobic dog have similar problems. > That could lead us to it's breeding period..... > > > Jordi Trilla > ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net > Lleida > Spain > Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release Date: 6/1/03 From: IN%"noofies@tir.com" "Nancy" 18-JUN-2003 10:08:28.67 To: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"jordi@trilla.net" CC: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia > Otherwise, she gets extremely distressed and wants to go into the car > which seems to calm her. Yet another situation where "grounding" solves the problem. Nancy --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release Date: 6/1/03 From: IN%"rudy.demeester@pi.be" "rudy de meester" 18-JUN-2003 10:33:36.18 To: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "'Julie Alexander'", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia I just think this is an imitation of normal behaviour in nature: the wolf goes to his den to hide... -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Julie Alexander [mailto:reddragn@bossig.com] Verzonden: woensdag 18 juni 2003 18:08 Aan: stammwood@rcn.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Onderwerp: Re: Thunderstorm Phobia This makes me think electromagnetic fields are involved. A car might act like a Faraday cage with the metal body and is shielded from ground fields by the tires. Julie Alexander > Otherwise, she gets extremely distressed and wants to go into the car > which seems to calm her. > > Cissy From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 18-JUN-2003 10:45:52.26 To: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" CC: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Could it not be because the car is a place that is associated with safety and return to the home? A moveable substitute 'den'. There is also the effect of changing context on the perceived success of escape [as seen in lab animal models]. Many dogs do seek out bathrooms, toilets or confined spaces to hide in, but not because of grounding. Indeed, the floors of these rooms may not be conductive or well earthed. I don't want to knock the idea about electric fields, because it sounds interesting, but these places are often rooms with small [or no] windows in the heart of the home where sound intensity is lowest. Even a sound difference of one or two dB will enable a dog to find a spot that feels safer [although often temporarily]. If the floor is tiled then this might be cool and soothing. The sound properties of a room are also important. Every room has a pattern of resonance, determined by its construction and dimensions. Long or larger rooms have a resonance at lower frequencies which may coincide with those the animal is most responsive to. So the dog may choose to go to a place with a higher resonance pitch where this 'booming' effect is less prominent. There are also boundary effects so that the sound level in certain parts of a room is reduced. Typically corners [where solid walls meet] are quieter, which is why dogs go to them. Other areas may produce 'bass trap' like cavity resonances which the dog will want to avoid. I have measured these effects in rooms and also used easily available computer models [usually used for audio installation] to pick them out. Lastly, cars do not function very well as faraday cages because windows provide huge gaps. To function well the cage would need to be complete or made of a fine conductive mesh. Radios, GPS and other receivers work pretty well from inside cars so they cannot be very good faraday cages. Jon On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 05:07 pm, Julie Alexander wrote: > This makes me think electromagnetic fields are involved. A car might > act > like a Faraday cage with the metal body and is shielded from ground > fields by the tires. > Julie Alexander > >> Otherwise, she gets extremely distressed and wants to go into the car >> which seems to calm her. >> >> Cissy > > From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 18-JUN-2003 10:57:35.92 To: IN%"rudy.demeester@pi.be" "rudy de meester" CC: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "'Julie Alexander'", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Actually, I never saw that behaviour in wolves. They are surprisingly not affected by sometimes drastic and sudden weather changes. Remember also that a full pack does not fit in a den... Only the nursing mother and the pups would take advantage of the shelter, for obvious reasons. S. Gadbois ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Behavioural endocrinology and ethology. Canids: wolves, coyotes and red foxes. http://www.Gadbois.org/ On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 01:33 PM, rudy de meester wrote: > I just think this is an imitation of normal behaviour in nature: the > wolf > goes to his den to hide... > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Julie Alexander [mailto:reddragn@bossig.com] > Verzonden: woensdag 18 juni 2003 18:08 > Aan: stammwood@rcn.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Onderwerp: Re: Thunderstorm Phobia > > > This makes me think electromagnetic fields are involved. A car might > act > like a Faraday cage with the metal body and is shielded from ground > fields > by the tires. Julie Alexander > >> Otherwise, she gets extremely distressed and wants to go into the car >> which seems to calm her. >> >> Cissy From: IN%"noofies@tir.com" "Nancy" 18-JUN-2003 11:15:32.29 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen", IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" CC: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Plumbing fixtures - commode, tub - wick static electricity away. When one of my dogs is frightened they head for the kneehole in my desk - nice small, confined space where they feel safe - or their crates (hard plastic airline type). I had a foster (Shepherd mix) who was t-storm phobic and though she chose the kneehole of my desk as her normal hang-out spot, when a t-storm came she would plaster herself against my tub. (BTW, there's a window in one tub wall, the dog would have been much further away from the window, and much more enclosed, if she'd been in the kneehole of my desk.) When I started misting her coat with a plant mister as a storm was approaching, she was much calmer and would stay curled at my feet instead of heading for the bathroom. I'm curious as to how many of the t-storm phobic dogs belonging to list members are large, deep-chested herding breeds? Wasn't it on this list I read a theory that dogs hear the Ultra-Low Frequency of thunder from great distances and are aware a storm is coming long before the weather actually changes? As my deaf dogs also seem to be aware of oncoming storms before the weather changes, I'm more inclined to believe it's the electrical changes the dogs are responding to rather than the sound of thunder. (Now, if you want to talk about photophobic/photosensitive dogs and lightening, that's a different story. I've got a photosensitive dog. I'm usually unaware of thunderstorms which occur during the night until 75 pounds' worth of terrified dog lands on my head. Fortunately it's easy enough to deal with this, I just pull her under the covers, wrap my arm around her and place my hand over her eyes, and she goes right to sleep.) Nancy NeufVies' Penny From Heaven, deaf English Setter - CGC, TT, Therapy Dog NeufVies' The Blizzard, deaf Dogo Argentino - CGC, TT NeufVies' Graceful Glenys, deaf English Setter - CGC, therapy dog NeufVies' Lumi Spot, deaf American Bulldog - CGC and the fosters at Miss Noofies' Charm School and Home for Wayward Doggies http://catatonic.freeservers.com/penny/thedogs.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Bowen To: Julie Alexander Cc: ; Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 12:44 PM Subject: Re: Thunderstorm Phobia > Many dogs do seek out bathrooms, toilets or confined spaces to hide in, > but not because of grounding. Indeed, the floors of these rooms may not > be conductive or well earthed. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release Date: 6/1/03 From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 18-JUN-2003 11:37:00.63 To: IN%"noofies@tir.com" "Nancy" CC: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Plumbing may earth static, but that does not mean that this is the reason why dogs hide in bathrooms or toilets. In the UK many baths are made of acrylic [which holds static and has poor surface conductance. These things tend to hold static rather than dissipate it], and toilets are made of china, which is non-conductive. So sitting in contact with these things woudl not have an earthing effect...and yet dogs still hide in bathrooms and toilets [and other small rooms]. The recent presence of running water might alter air ionisation though. The foster Shepherd-X may have been used to using a particular bolthole in the past, and went to the bathroom because of this. Your other dog may have been hiding in that place because it was quieter, or because it was closer to you, or you reassured it or for any number of other reasons. How would the electrical field theory apply to the dogs who are not fearful of thunder or storms, but react to fireworks and other noises and also hide in bathrooms and toilets? Don't take offense at this, air ionisation and electrical fields might be important, but there are many other things too. Has anyone tried air ionisers for phobic dogs? Jon On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 06:14 pm, Nancy wrote: > Plumbing fixtures - commode, tub - wick static electricity away. When > one > of my dogs is frightened they head for the kneehole in my desk - nice > small, > confined space where they feel safe - or their crates (hard plastic > airline > type). I had a foster (Shepherd mix) who was t-storm phobic and > though she > chose the kneehole of my desk as her normal hang-out spot, when a > t-storm > came she would plaster herself against my tub. (BTW, there's a window > in > one tub wall, the dog would have been much further away from the > window, and > much more enclosed, if she'd been in the kneehole of my desk.) When I > started misting her coat with a plant mister as a storm was > approaching, she > was much calmer and would stay curled at my feet instead of heading > for the > bathroom. > > I'm curious as to how many of the t-storm phobic dogs belonging to list > members are large, deep-chested herding breeds? > > Wasn't it on this list I read a theory that dogs hear the Ultra-Low > Frequency of thunder from great distances and are aware a storm is > coming > long before the weather actually changes? As my deaf dogs also seem > to be > aware of oncoming storms before the weather changes, I'm more inclined > to > believe it's the electrical changes the dogs are responding to rather > than > the sound of thunder. > > (Now, if you want to talk about photophobic/photosensitive dogs and > lightening, that's a different story. I've got a photosensitive dog. > I'm > usually unaware of thunderstorms which occur during the night until 75 > pounds' worth of terrified dog lands on my head. Fortunately it's easy > enough to deal with this, I just pull her under the covers, wrap my arm > around her and place my hand over her eyes, and she goes right to > sleep.) > > Nancy > NeufVies' Penny From Heaven, deaf English Setter - CGC, TT, Therapy Dog > NeufVies' The Blizzard, deaf Dogo Argentino - CGC, TT > NeufVies' Graceful Glenys, deaf English Setter - CGC, therapy dog > NeufVies' Lumi Spot, deaf American Bulldog - CGC > and the fosters at Miss Noofies' Charm School and Home for Wayward > Doggies > http://catatonic.freeservers.com/penny/thedogs.html > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jon Bowen > To: Julie Alexander > Cc: ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 12:44 PM > Subject: Re: Thunderstorm Phobia > > >> Many dogs do seek out bathrooms, toilets or confined spaces to hide >> in, >> but not because of grounding. Indeed, the floors of these rooms may >> not >> be conductive or well earthed. > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release Date: 6/1/03 > > > Best wishes, Jon From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 18-JUN-2003 11:58:43.17 To: IN%"simon@gadbois.org", IN%"rudy.demeester@pi.be" CC: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia In a message dated 6/18/2003 9:58:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, simon@gadbois.org writes: > Actually, I never saw that behaviour in wolves. They are surprisingly > not affected by sometimes drastic and sudden weather changes. Remember > also that a full pack does not fit in a den... Only the nursing mother > and the pups would take advantage of the shelter, for obvious reasons. > S. Gadbois That is very interesting. I wonder if this has something to do with the juvenilization of the dogs psychology through breeding for tameness. Any reason why pups should be more afraid of thunderstorms than adults? From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" 18-JUN-2003 12:16:37.11 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" Subj: RE: references about Ritaline Hi Jon and all, History of the research and development of diagnostics and treatment techniques of hyperkinesis in dogs appears in Behavior Problems In Dogs, 3rd ed. 1999, pp. 127-140, with several illustrated case histories, including one from the late Dr. Sam Corson's work at Ohio State University, Dept. Biopsychiatry. Corson, S.A., et al. Centennial Symposium on Huntington's Chorea, Raven Press, NY, 1973. Campbell, W.E. Behavior Modification of Hyperkinetic Dogs, Modern Veterinary Practice Magazine, Sept. 1973, pp. 87-89 I was honored to have Dr. Corson visit Los Angeles and spend some time "exchanging ideas" (to quote Sam) on the subject. He and his wife were tireless scientists of rare dedication and great humanity. When their project with the "hyper" dogs from the old Bowling Green canine colony was finished, they either found them homes or trained them to establish one of earliest canine therapy programs, visiting nursing and long term elderly care facilities. Here is Corson's quintessence for clinical physiological signs of hyperkinesis: In mild physical restraint 1. sustained tachycardia, 2. sustained hyperpnea, 3. excessive salivation, 4. increased energy metabolism, 5. a vasopressin-type antidiuresis. Behavioral signs quite accurately follow these descriptions and usually reveal the difference between a dog who is simply hyper-reactive to environmental stimuli and the hyper-active, hyperkinetic dog. 1. The dog can't sit still, even for a minute. 2. Never accommodates (gets used to) everyday situations. 3. Just doesn't learn anything. 4. Salivates constantly and always seems excited or nervous. Yes, Jon, your hopes are well fulfilled. Our genuine hyperkinetics enjoy complete veterinary work-ups, differential diagnoses and 12 weeks of behavioral therapy and owner-counselling. :-) I hope this is useful, since I still hear (too late) of too many pets whose behavior fits this model, yet are euthanised as "incorrigible." :-((( Kindest regards, Bill Campbell BehavioRx Sysytems PO Box 1658 Grants Pass, OR 97528 http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior -0- Jon Bowen wrote: > > I read the article in BehavourRx and find it odd that the 'simple test' > that was used to determine whether the dog was hyperkinetic was the > administration of the same drug also used to treat the condition. > > This seems merely to be a means of diagnosing 'ritalin deficiency' ;-) > A number of other drugs [with different modes of action] are also known > to have an effect on hyperkinesis so where do they fit in? > > Active tests such as the administration of pyridostigmine or ACTH are > used in veterinary medicine, but in these situations the drug has a > very specific and well understood target and effect. The same surely > cannot be said of Ritalin? > > How do others feel about this? Robin?? > > I would also be interested in the parallels between the condition > treated in this example and that in human medicine, if anyone has any > information. > In man the equivalent condition to hyperkinesis has persistent effects > into adulthood and cannot be treated with a short course of drugs. > > The BehaviorRx case was on Ritalin for only a few weeks. > Hopefully it was also on a behavioural modification plan too? > > Jon > > On Tuesday, June 17, 2003, at 10:04 pm, cissy stamm wrote: > > > Try: > > > > http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/may97.html > > > > Cissy > > > > chajeakie wrote: > > > >> Dear coleagues > >> I am vet in France and I am looking for some references about > >> therapeutic effects of Ritaline in the treatment of Hyperkinetic > >> Syndrom by Dogs. I know the drug is used in US with success in this > >> case. > >> Thank for your help. > >> Best regards. > >> Jean-Paul Chaurand. > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > Jon From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 18-JUN-2003 12:35:44.77 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" CC: IN%"rudy.demeester@pi.be", IN%"reddragn@bossig.com", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Well, there is Morton's theory: social mammals (and birds, if I remember well his seminal paper) use low frequency vocalizations when on the aggression/dominance mode, and high frequency vocalizations when in the submissive/subordinate mode. This is particularly shocking when you hear for the first time the (very high frequency, almost song-bird-like) squeaks of wolves welcoming their pack members (or a human when hand-raised). So, for this "stretched" hypothesis: thunder = low frequency = "somebody" is not happy. Simon Gadbois ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Behavioural endocrinology and ethology. Canids: wolves, coyotes and red foxes. http://www.Gadbois.org/ On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Michalchik@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/18/2003 9:58:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, > simon@gadbois.org writes: > > Actually, I never saw that behaviour in wolves. They are surprisingly > not affected by sometimes drastic and sudden weather changes. Remember > also that a full pack does not fit in a den... Only the nursing mother > and the pups would take advantage of the shelter, for obvious reasons. > S. Gadbois > > > > That is very interesting. I wonder if this has something to do with > the juvenilization of the dogs psychology through breeding for > tameness. Any reason why pups should be more afraid of thunderstorms > than adults? From: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" 18-JUN-2003 13:34:36.27 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia - fear vs phobia? OK. Here's an example using my dog, the T-storm "reactive" Caucasian Ovcharka. The first time she encountered one of those giant beeping and moving pallet trucks at Home Depot (sorry if some of you don't know what I'm talking about), she had what I would term a fear reaction. She barked. She cocked her head. She pulled on her lead to try to back up away from it. She head-turned, body turned. When the thing stopped, I coaxed her over to it. I touched it. I asked her to come over. She smelled it. Backed away a little; smelled it again. I fed her treats. We walked around it. I gave the driver treats to feed her. Then I took her a few feet away and asked the driver to start again going away from us. He did. She didn't react at all. She has encountered these things many more times in different store locations and has ignored them ever since the first encounter. My read. She learned that the object was not a threat to me or her. Her fear of T-storms is in a totally different league. She cowers and shakes, can't find a comfortable position, pants heavily, salivates. This starts approximately 15 minutes before the thunder. It's severity and duration match that of the storm, so in that respect there is gradation of response. The response is not location dependent. Don't know if this adds anything to the discussion. My observation is of one dog only. Oh, and I have a cat (and had another dog until recently) that is not reactive to t-storms in spite of being present for the other's reactions. Cissy Jon Bowen wrote: > Absolutely! > For precisely the reason you mention, the human definition of phobia > does not apply in the case of animal patients. So instead it is better > to use observations of the behavioural characteristics of the fear > response which differentiate 'phobic' from 'normal' fear. > For example, the relative persistence of phobic fear or the intensity > and general lack of gradation of response to the severity of threat > [phobic fear is an 'all or nothing' rather than a graded response]. > > Jon > > > On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 02:57 pm, Chris Sherwin wrote: > >> >> Dear All, >> >> I'm interested in the use of the term 'phobia' in these messages. I >> thought the >> definition of a phobia was a persistent IRRATIONAL fear of something. >> Does this >> mean that these animals are behaving irrationaly, and therefore is >> this evidence of >> rational thought in these animals? Why are people using the term >> 'phobia' instead >> of 'fear of'? >> >> Regards, >> >> Chris >> >> >> > > From: IN%"ENeunteufel@gc.cuny.edu" "Neunteufel, Evelyn" 18-JUN-2003 15:56:04.70 To: IN%"mad@nofeardavis.org" "'Maren Plagens '", IN%"enoyes@zoo.uvm.edu" "'Emily M. Noyes '" CC: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" "'Jordi Trilla '", IN%"dognponyshow@msn.com" "'Dognponyshow MCGEE '", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" "'stammwood@rcn.com '", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca '" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia As with so many other behaviors, there is probably a genetic factor and an environmental factor involved here too. I read about a study in which monkeys learned to fear snakes from watching videos of other monkeys showing fearful behavior towards snakes (environmental effect). Monkeys could not, however, be taught to fear flowers upon watching similar videos (apparently genetic factor). (The flower videos were artificially changed to make it look like a monkey was showing fearful behavior towards flowers.) If anyone is interested in the reference, let me know. Evelyn -----Original Message----- From: Maren Plagens To: Emily M. Noyes Cc: Jordi Trilla; Dognponyshow MCGEE; Neunteufel, Evelyn; stammwood@rcn.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: 6/17/2003 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Thunderstorm Phobia I have worked (trained for management and reduction of fear responses, when the dog was endangering itself or its people) with a lot of dogs with weather related anxieties and have seen only one with wind phobia. The interesting thing here is that off all the dogs I have worked with I have found only 1 that an owner could relate to a certain event or reasoning for the fear. This dog was in a house when it was struck by lightning, the whole family and the dog received some fairly significant electrocution. I have often wondered if the phobia could go back to some event during the "fear period" of development. But so many dogs are affected later in life. Then I have questioned genetics, but I personally have not seen any evidence of genetics playing a role (doesn't mean it doesn't). I have also thought about the response to human fears, but that is difficult to deal with proving. I have wondered a lot of hypotheses but could not find enough consistencies to even believe in one. Maybe it is one for some dogs and another for others Maren Plagens Emily M. Noyes wrote: >Hello all - > >I have a 4 year old German Shepherd who is afraid of wind. There does not >have to be any accompanying stormy conditions. He is fine when it rains, >fine when it thunders, but if the wind blows he is pacing and panting. > >I would imagine that different dogs have different triggers - all of which >can be lumped into a thunderstorm phobia. Have people on the list also >seen dogs that have specific wind phobias? Do they eventually develop >more phobias? > >Thanks for any input > >Emily Noyes > >On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Jordi Trilla wrote: > > > >>Dear coleagues, >> >>I would like to "launch" a very simple question to everyone who has a dog with thuderstorm phobia in order to have, at least a first very simple theory to start working whit. >> >>Does someone, ANYONE of the owners of these dogs/cats in the family have some little fear of lightling? Maybe non-confesed because of shame? Please, be sincere! >> >>We all know dogs can smell fear. If this comes from someone higher in his group level he can easily become extremly frightened. >> >>I had a German dogo with this phobia... but I used to carry him to my competitions of olympic shooting where he was absolutely calm. (Sorry, I think I post this example already). However, my mother is afraid of tunderstorms because of a child's experience. >> >>Well just a thought... Your turn. >> >>Jordi Trilla >>ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net >>Lleida >>Spain >>Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ >> >> >> >> >>Dognponyshow MCGEE wrote: >>Evelyn, >> >>Could your cat be responding/reacting to the dog's frantic behavior? >>With 8 dogs, I feel fortunate to have only one that is thunder-phobic, and >>that is a very recent development (he is 8 and this is the first year he has >>been affected). None of the 6 cats are affected either by the storms or the >>dog's anxiety, however my green-wing macaw has transferred his "Stupid Dog" >>comment from when a dog bumps his cage to the older dog's anxiety attacks. >>Quite amusing to observe, although not to the dog, I'd bet. >> >>Kasie McGee >> >> >> >> >>>From: "Neunteufel, Evelyn" >>>To: 'cissy stamm ' , 'ethology ' >>> >>>Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia >>>Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:10 -0400 >>> >>>Cissy, >>>My cat usually disappears behind the sofa, when the thunder gets too loud. >>>I've only noticed this recently, probably because my dog's frantic running >>>around usually attracts most of my attention. (My dog is getting older and >>>not responding to the storms as much anymore, but just last night the cat >>>disappeared behind the sofa again.) >>> >>>Evelyn >>>Graduate Student at the City University of New York >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: cissy stamm >>>To: ethology >>>Sent: 6/10/2003 4:54 PM >>>Subject: Thunderstorm Phobia >>> >>>Has thunderstorm phobia been observed in any animals other than dogs? >>> >>>Thanks. >>> >>>Cissy >>> >>> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From: IN%"ENeunteufel@gc.cuny.edu" "Neunteufel, Evelyn" 18-JUN-2003 16:14:18.87 To: IN%"dognponyshow@msn.com" "'Dognponyshow MCGEE '", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" "'stammwood@rcn.com '", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca '" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Yes, Kasie, it is possible that the cat is responding to the dog's frantic behavior. With the dog jumping around like crazy, the cat might have learned to hide from storms to avoid getting trampled (though she could also escape up onto the ledge of her scratching post). I wish I remembered how she responded to storms 12 years ago, before we had the dog. I also don't know either of my pets' histories during the first 5 (cat) to 10 (dog) months of their lives. (The cat was a stray and the dog, a Belgian shepherd mix, from a shelter.) Evelyn -----Original Message----- From: Dognponyshow MCGEE To: Neunteufel, Evelyn; stammwood@rcn.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: 6/17/2003 10:13 AM Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Evelyn, Could your cat be responding/reacting to the dog's frantic behavior? With 8 dogs, I feel fortunate to have only one that is thunder-phobic, and that is a very recent development (he is 8 and this is the first year he has been affected). None of the 6 cats are affected either by the storms or the dog's anxiety, however my green-wing macaw has transferred his "Stupid Dog" comment from when a dog bumps his cage to the older dog's anxiety attacks. Quite amusing to observe, although not to the dog, I'd bet. Kasie McGee >From: "Neunteufel, Evelyn" >To: 'cissy stamm ' , 'ethology ' > >Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia >Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:10 -0400 > >Cissy, >My cat usually disappears behind the sofa, when the thunder gets too loud. >I've only noticed this recently, probably because my dog's frantic running >around usually attracts most of my attention. (My dog is getting older and >not responding to the storms as much anymore, but just last night the cat >disappeared behind the sofa again.) > >Evelyn >Graduate Student at the City University of New York > >-----Original Message----- >From: cissy stamm >To: ethology >Sent: 6/10/2003 4:54 PM >Subject: Thunderstorm Phobia > >Has thunderstorm phobia been observed in any animals other than dogs? > >Thanks. > >Cissy _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 18-JUN-2003 15:13:49.88 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Hi, Here is one definition applied to animals. Presumably the emotional state of fear in response to the CS perpetuates the problem so the animal becomes fearful of feeling frightened. Of course, especially in the case of dogs this may also be reinforced by the owner's response to their animal's distress. Phobia: Occurs when fear does not extinguish. The fear remains at the same high level for months or even years, even though the conditioned stimulus is never paired again with the noxious unconditioned stimulus. (O'Farrell, 1986 BSAVA manual of canine behaviour, British Small Animal Veterinary Association, Cheltenham, England) Best wishes, David -----Original Message----- From: Jon Bowen [mailto:rondog@btinternet.com] Sent: 18 June 2003 15:13 To: Chris Sherwin; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Thunderstorm Phobia Absolutely! For precisely the reason you mention, the human definition of phobia does not apply in the case of animal patients. So instead it is better to use observations of the behavioural characteristics of the fear response which differentiate 'phobic' from 'normal' fear. For example, the relative persistence of phobic fear or the intensity and general lack of gradation of response to the severity of threat [phobic fear is an 'all or nothing' rather than a graded response]. Jon On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 02:57 pm, Chris Sherwin wrote: > > Dear All, > > I'm interested in the use of the term 'phobia' in these messages. I > thought the > definition of a phobia was a persistent IRRATIONAL fear of something. > Does this > mean that these animals are behaving irrationaly, and therefore is > this evidence of > rational thought in these animals? Why are people using the term > 'phobia' instead > of 'fear of'? > > Regards, > > Chris > > > From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 18-JUN-2003 15:48:18.63 To: IN%"noofies@tir.com" "Nancy", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"jordi@trilla.net" CC: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Dear Nancy, My Physics may be up the creek here but cars are insulated from the ground by their tyres. This may mean the dog is actually safer than it would be on the ground outside but how would it know? Best wishes David -----Original Message----- From: Nancy [mailto:noofies@tir.com] Sent: 18 June 2003 17:08 To: stammwood@rcn.com; jordi@trilla.net Cc: Jon Bowen; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Thunderstorm Phobia > Otherwise, she gets extremely distressed and wants to go into the car > which seems to calm her. Yet another situation where "grounding" solves the problem. Nancy --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release Date: 6/1/03 From: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" 19-JUN-2003 04:37:22.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"cvmontsec@hotmail.com" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia (by Elvira Martorell) Dear friends, I've been scared when this morning I opened my account and I’ve seen the quantity of messages about the thunderstorm phobia!!! I still didn't read them, but I'll do it, I promise. Meanwhile, but, I want to translate a paragraph from a Spanish book written by Xavier Manteca (Spain) named "Veterinary Clinic Ethology of the Dog and the Cat" 2ond chapter ("Fear and Stress") that a friend of mine (Elvira Carbonell) kindly sent to me yesterday. I invited her to join our list. Here is the translation: "Fear is an emotional answer that appears in situations that are a menace for the animal or it imagine they are. (...) The stimulus that causes a fear answer is the extreme newness, the stimulus that the animal had associated with adverse experiences by a process of classic conditioning –conditioned fear- and the stimulus -specially the auditory- very intense. Furthermore, in some species they have been described stimulus that in a innate way –I mean, without necessity of learning- cause fear; el fear to the height that show some species would be an example of one of these stimulus. Finally, fear can be a consequence of certain signals expressed by individuals of the same species, like alarm pheromones by the dog. The existences of such pheromones in the dog haven’t been established. (...) Like we have been indicated previously, the intensity of the answer to the fear that an animal presents in a particular situation – meaning its “fearful” behavior- depends in a great part of genetically factors. (...) Added to those factors, the environment has also an important effect. Like, the manipulation of the puppy during the neonatal period seems to diminish the intensity of the answer of fear during the adult age. Likewise, the fact that the puppy has contact with several stimuli during its socialization period makes that doesn’t show fear later in front of such stimulus Bye Elvira” Jordi Trilla ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net Lleida Spain Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ From: IN%"sarahlhellis@hotmail.com" "Sarah Ellis" 19-JUN-2003 05:37:43.75 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com", IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" CC: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia just a thought but the bathroom is probably (in my experiences) a place where a dog does not usually go often or is not allowed into, should we take into consideration the dog is looking for an area new which it dissociates from the storm?? >From: Jon Bowen >To: Julie Alexander >CC: stammwood@rcn.com, Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Re: Thunderstorm Phobia >Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:44:32 +0100 > >Could it not be because the car is a place that is associated with safety >and return to the home? A moveable substitute 'den'. >There is also the effect of changing context on the perceived success of >escape [as seen in lab animal models]. > >Many dogs do seek out bathrooms, toilets or confined spaces to hide in, but >not because of grounding. Indeed, the floors of these rooms may not be >conductive or well earthed. I don't want to knock the idea about electric >fields, because it sounds interesting, but these places are often rooms >with small [or no] windows in the heart of the home where sound intensity >is lowest. Even a sound difference of one or two dB will enable a dog to >find a spot that feels safer [although often temporarily]. If the floor is >tiled then this might be cool and soothing. > >The sound properties of a room are also important. Every room has a pattern >of resonance, determined by its construction and dimensions. >Long or larger rooms have a resonance at lower frequencies which may >coincide with those the animal is most responsive to. >So the dog may choose to go to a place with a higher resonance pitch where >this 'booming' effect is less prominent. >There are also boundary effects so that the sound level in certain parts of >a room is reduced. Typically corners [where solid walls meet] are quieter, >which is why dogs go to them. Other areas may produce 'bass trap' like >cavity resonances which the dog will want to avoid. > >I have measured these effects in rooms and also used easily available >computer models [usually used for audio installation] to pick them out. > >Lastly, cars do not function very well as faraday cages because windows >provide huge gaps. To function well the cage would need to be complete or >made of a fine conductive mesh. Radios, GPS and other receivers work pretty >well from inside cars so they cannot be very good faraday cages. > >Jon > > >On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 05:07 pm, Julie Alexander wrote: > >>This makes me think electromagnetic fields are involved. A car might act >>like a Faraday cage with the metal body and is shielded from ground >>fields by the tires. >>Julie Alexander >> >>>Otherwise, she gets extremely distressed and wants to go into the car >>>which seems to calm her. >>> >>>Cissy >> >> > _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From: IN%"robin@coape.co.uk" "Robin Walker" 19-JUN-2003 11:36:45.75 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "'Jon Bowen'", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" CC: IN%"chajeakie@wanadoo.fr" "'chajeakie'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: references about Ritalin Ritalin is absolutely NOT available to veterinarians in the UK. Ritalin is not available to medical doctors unless they are Registered as Psychiatric specialists. The redoubtable Dr Mugford (author of a splendid collection of anecdotes and "Society" name dropping gossip) describes a collaboration with Professor Corson on pages 164-5 of Dr Mugford's Casebook, Hutchinson/Stanley Paul 1991, ISBN 0 09 174891 "Professor Samuel Corson from the University of Ohio had earlier published a report on a disturbed hyperkinetic dog called Jackson. Jackson, a black Cocker Spaniel-cross had responded remarkably to the stimulant D-amphetamine by becoming calm and friendly; most dogs, like most people, become more active when on amphetamine and it struck me that Buzzy might also suffer from such a neurochemical disorder in the brain......the kindly professor of psychiatry, with his Russian-American accent and his well groomed nanny-goat beard, struck quite a contrast with the trendy young English aristocrats....." Oh -buy the book for heaven's sake! In short Professor Corson "diligently went through Buzzy's checklist" And pronounced that the similarity was very close indeed and that to dog was a candidate for the amphetamine treatment. It did not work and in fact "if anything Buzzy was becoming more violent". After some tinkering with diet the "roaring" dog was given Mysoline This reduced the anger episodes to "grumpiness in the evening". After five tolerable years the dog was killed the make the "aristocratic" home safe for the planned aristocratic babies. (vide Dawkins, The Selfish Gene etc). There is increasing concern abut the use of Ritalin and an internet search should produce around 185,000 articles if you care to look. Medscape has some interesting articles up since yesterday. The essence of the matter is the net effect on dopamine in the brain and its impact on reward chemistry. It is my humble view that questions if motivation, gratification, addiction are the core issues. For scholarship I would recommend The Amygdala, ed. Aggleton. For "squirrelship" I commend Steven Lindsay, Applied Dog Behaviour and Training, volume 2 Chapter Five. (He has left no nut un-nibbled) This advice is directed to "chajeakjie" as I am sure Jon is entirely Abreast of all this :-) Robin -----Original Message----- From: Jon Bowen [mailto:rondog@btinternet.com] Sent: 18 June 2003 10:01 To: stammwood@rcn.com Cc: chajeakie; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: references about Ritaline I read the article in BehavourRx and find it odd that the 'simple test' that was used to determine whether the dog was hyperkinetic was the administration of the same drug also used to treat the condition. This seems merely to be a means of diagnosing 'ritalin deficiency' ;-) A number of other drugs [with different modes of action] are also known to have an effect on hyperkinesis so where do they fit in? Active tests such as the administration of pyridostigmine or ACTH are used in veterinary medicine, but in these situations the drug has a very specific and well understood target and effect. The same surely cannot be said of Ritalin? How do others feel about this? Robin?? I would also be interested in the parallels between the condition treated in this example and that in human medicine, if anyone has any information. In man the equivalent condition to hyperkinesis has persistent effects into adulthood and cannot be treated with a short course of drugs. The BehaviorRx case was on Ritalin for only a few weeks. Hopefully it was also on a behavioural modification plan too? Jon On Tuesday, June 17, 2003, at 10:04 pm, cissy stamm wrote: > Try: > > http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/may97.html > > Cissy > > chajeakie wrote: > >> Dear coleagues >> I am vet in France and I am looking for some references about >> therapeutic effects of Ritaline in the treatment of Hyperkinetic >> Syndrom by Dogs. I know the drug is used in US with success in this >> case. >> Thank for your help. >> Best regards. >> Jean-Paul Chaurand. > > > Best wishes, Jon From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 19-JUN-2003 16:22:58.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Suzanne Hetts wrote: > In my experience, thunder phobias cannot be attributed to any single factor , and I've worked with literally hundreds of them over the > years in my consulting practice. On rare occassion, they can be traced directly back to a dog having a traumatic experience, such > as being trapped on a mountain top while hiking with his owner during a storm but this is the exception, not the rule. Any behavior , > or behavior problem is always a co-action between genetic and environmental factors, as even in the traumatic example, the dog > may have been more prone to react strongly given its genetic makeup. A wealth of research indicates that tendencies toward fearful > behavior have genetic influences but how they are manifest obviously depends on many factors. The factors that contribute to the > development of thunder phobias are as yet poorly understood. I've seen littermates in the same household where one is afraid and > the other isn't. I have, or had, exactly such a situation with two Saluki littermates. They are now seven and a half years old and in general not exactly timid - they are immediate descendants of tribal-bred hunting hounds, are themselves regularly used for coursing and are considerably bolder and more confident than the common impression of this breed. They were bred by myself and both are "returns" - the male at one and a half because he was too much dog for his owner, who had had coronary bypass surgery, and because the owner thought he should have an opportunity to develop his hunting ability, which was not possible in Michigan; and the bitch at five because she continually dug out of her (largely absentee) owner's 10 acre yard (in California) to go hunting on her own. The male, and the other seven littermates round the world, are quite "bomb proof" and unimpressed by thunder or other loud noises. The bitch, when she returned to me, had a severe case of thunder phobia, triggered also by other banging noises and especially by gunfire. The opening days of dove and quail seasons (I lived at the time in rural Arizona) were torture for her. Even very distant shooting, barely or not at all audible to myself, would put her into a panic. This problem has now entirely or almost entirely abated. In the field she will stand unleashed and quite unmoved, while someone fires a rifle ten yards away. Thunder still makes her a bit restless ... if it is loud she will seek me out ... but no longer induces pacing, panting, trembling, salivating and the rest. I wish I could say this is the result of some clever training method developed by myself , but that is not the case. All I have done is provide her with a secure home, continual access to my person except when I am at work, and the opportunity to go hunting with me on a more or less regular basis. She no longer tries to escape from a fenced yard (though she still cannot be crated, she will destroy a crate or die in the attempt, her canines are worn and broken from tearing at chain link during the time she did not live with me; I have known only two canids that would try to go through chain link - and sometimes succeed - and the other one was a wolf). She still spends a great deal of time in my bed, whether or not I am in it (but that is rather natural to the breed anyway). All this is by way of leading up to a "traumatic incident" etiology. A year or so ago we discovered quite by accident that my bitch carries several shotgun pellets in her body. One of them, in the base of one ear, can even be palpated externally. It does now seem rather likely that she was shot, perhaps more than once, during her impromptu hunting expeditions in California farming country. We had a possibly similar experience with her grandsire. He was quite unmoved by thunder (etc.) until at the age of about nine he flew from Switzerland to the United States. Thereafter and for the rest of his life he was strongly thunder-phobic. That was not his first experience of air travel - he flew as a young dog from Switzerland to Dubai, and at the age of eight from Dubai to Switzerland. One can only speculate that something may have happened on that transatlantic flight to frighten him badly (he was a very calm and steady dog and in general not at all easily frightened or intimidated). Unfortunately I did not at the time have the wit to ask the airline about untoward events during the flight. Anyway the phobia did not of course become apparent till the next thunderstorm, which might have been a couple of months after his arrival in the U.S. Just anecdotes ... John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 19-JUN-2003 16:23:25.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Chris Sherwin wrote: > I'm interested in the use of the term 'phobia' in these messages. I thought the > definition of a phobia was a persistent IRRATIONAL fear of something. Does this > mean that these animals are behaving irrationaly, and therefore is this evidence of > rational thought in these animals? Why are people using the term 'phobia' instead > of 'fear of'? Well, you could argue that an animal's fear is "irrational" in the sense that it persists in spite of repeated experience that no harm results from the fear-inducing stimulus ... That gets us to a definition of "rational" - how about "consonant with expectation based on previous experience" ?? I know "rational" is derived from "ratio" = reasoning, but in practice most of the things we consider "rational" are in fact expectations based on experience, we don't actually reason them through every time, and anyway, reason needs some kind of experiential substrate to work on . John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 19-JUN-2003 16:23:46.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: thunder/wind phobia Julie Alexander wrote: > The change in electrical fields may make an animal more sensitive to the > thunderclap. Wind can also be accompanied by changes in ion > charges--like the Santa Ana wind or the foehn wind that makes people > irritable. > We must be careful about assuming which part of a complex situation > triggers the phobia. Us humans are sensory impaired compared to many > animals. Many things might be detectable to them that we are unaware of > and be a critical element to trigger a behavior. Changing the water in > an aquarium can often trigger fish to spawn. Well, I think that may be understood, at least in some cases. Many tropical fishes spawn at the beginning of the rainy season, when rivers overflow their banks creating shallow "nursery areas" relatively free of larger predators. In some species spawning may be triggered by a reduction in ionic content of the water, brought about in nature by rain and in the aquarium by changing some of the water. In other species spawning may be triggered by raindrops splashing on the water surface, which can be simulated in aquaria by a water spray (or a water change). In a similar vein, breeding behavior in certain nomadic birds of the arid Australian outback is triggered by the sound (and sight?) of raindrops - again, easily simulated in an aviary, once you realize that's what's needed. Under typical aquarium conditions, the water contains a very high and quite unnatural level of nitrates, resulting from the continued excretion by the fishes of nitrogenous waste products. Most species of aquarium fishes are amazingly tolerant of high levels of nitrate (but less so of nitrite, and not at all of ammonia, so monitoring of the redox potential is in order, especially in marine systems). A sudden drop in nitrate level, such as results from a partial water change, might nevertheless be perceived by many fishes as an improvement in environmental conditions, and thus an inducement to spawn. Fish eggs and young fry are, I believe, less tolerant of high nitrate levels than the adults. John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 19-JUN-2003 16:26:57.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Nancy wrote: > > Otherwise, she gets extremely distressed and wants to go into the car > > which seems to calm her. > > Yet another situation where "grounding" solves the problem. More than "grounding." A car is a "Faraday cage" and will largely shut out the electrical field (constant or varying) in the environs. Cars aren't ordinarily grounded (rubber tires are a pretty good insulator!) but they do interrupt the local electrical field and indeed inside a car is about the safest place you can be during a thunderstorm. Lightning can strike the car but because like charges repel one another, all the current runs along the surface of the vehicle and none gets inside. Might fry a tire or two on its way to ground, but not the occupants. "Foehn" was mentioned earlier. AFAIK this southerly Alpine wind is accompanied by variations in the electric field, with a frequency of about 10 Hz, the frequency of alpha waves in the brain, and a frequency which can trigger seizures in susceptible individuals. Experiments long ago at the Max Planck Institute for Psychiatry in Munich showed, I believe, that it was the 10 Hz electric field variations which produced most of the symptoms associated with "Foehn" in the Alpine regions. What they did, as I remember it from a long-ago seminar, was hire a bunch of typists to work in a large room. Wires had been installed in floor and ceiling allowing them to apply a low frequency electrical field of the same (very small) magnitude as measured during "Foehn" events. When the 10 Hz field was switched on, the typing error rate increased enormously. In Munich at that time, to the best of my recollection, elective surgery was cancelled during Foehn. Automobile accidents and crimes of violence increased markedly. Everybody complained of headaches. The longer you lived there, it seemed, the more sensitive you became. I lived there just long enough (7 years) to become aware of the phenomenon. John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 19-JUN-2003 16:27:13.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Chris Sherwin wrote: > Perhaps I have misunderstood the use of the word 'irrational' in this case. I > thought this related to excessive fear generated when someone could rationalise > that no harm would come to them, for example when looking at pictures of spiders, > or when confronted with a snake that was known to be non-toxic. Having said this, > in the example you give 'exhibiting extreme fear of storms whilst in a secure > shelter' this presumes the 'phobic' animal knows it is in a secure shelter...do > they really know this? If the shelter is a self-excavated den, perhaps they do. It would be interesting to put telemetry on some animals (both "phobic" and otherwise) in that situation. Also not terribly difficult, I think . I suspect the only way a non-verbal animal could "rationalise that no harm would come to them" would be on the basis of previous experience. That is even, I would argue, the basis of most of our own "rationality." We have learned that the world is predictable in certain ways. A lot of that "learning" is, to be sure, actually innate, built into our perceptual apparatus ("learning by evolution" if you like), the existence and structure of which is the best and indeed only evidence that yes Virginia, there is a real world and it is predictable, else it would be impossible to evolve an apparatus to predict it. Oops, philosophy . As for humans, I'll grant you pictures of spiders (I think) but snakes, well, "known to be non-toxic" would for most people be based on what someone told them, which I suspect does not reach the deep affective (instinctive?) layers in which the response is taking place (not quite talking through my hat here, I was a "snake man" and did many snake lectures and demonstrations in schools etc., in the course of which I observed that rationality has very little to do with most people's reactions to snakes ) As I'm sure everyone knows, there's quite a literature on the reactions of primates to snakes. In that connection I was interested to discover that my own slightly feral hounds (Arabian hunting hounds, aka Salukis, mine are predominantly of direct tribal descent, their ancestors were given me by Bedouin) have an innate reaction to rattlesnakes and will not willingly go within 50 yards of one. They wake me in the night by barking in a certain peculiar way, and I find them at one end of the yard, and a rattler at the other. In several cases we know definitely it was that animal's first experience of a venomous snake. There are no rattlers in Arabia, but there are several vipers (Echis, Cerastes, Pseudocerastes) which make a similar sound by rubbing their scales together ... convergence of course, it has to do with not being stepped on by large ungulates. John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 19-JUN-2003 16:27:22.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia rudy de meester wrote: > I just think this is an imitation of normal behaviour in nature: the wolf > goes to his den to hide... Yes, no doubt (and my hounds excavate dens of which any wolf could be proud) but the car is nevertheless indeed a Faraday cage, and inside it you will experience little of the electrical field events (at least the lower frequency ones) which may be going on outside. Actually, given the mobility of wolves, outside the breeding season they are unlikely to be close enough to their den to run there and hide if a thunderstorm approaches! That is a luxury available mainly to puppies. And of course to the puppy-like domesticated descendants who are rarely out of reach of a "den" of some kind ... John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 19-JUN-2003 16:27:33.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Jon Bowen wrote: > > Could it not be because the car is a place that is associated with > safety and return to the home? A moveable substitute 'den'. > There is also the effect of changing context on the perceived success > of escape [as seen in lab animal models]. > > Many dogs do seek out bathrooms, toilets or confined spaces to hide in, > but not because of grounding. Indeed, the floors of these rooms may not > be conductive or well earthed. I don't want to knock the idea about > electric fields, because it sounds interesting, but these places are > often rooms with small [or no] windows in the heart of the home where > sound intensity is lowest. Even a sound difference of one or two dB > will enable a dog to find a spot that feels safer [although often > temporarily]. If the floor is tiled then this might be cool and > soothing. > > The sound properties of a room are also important. Every room has a > pattern of resonance, determined by its construction and dimensions. > Long or larger rooms have a resonance at lower frequencies which may > coincide with those the animal is most responsive to. > So the dog may choose to go to a place with a higher resonance pitch > where this 'booming' effect is less prominent. > There are also boundary effects so that the sound level in certain > parts of a room is reduced. Typically corners [where solid walls meet] > are quieter, which is why dogs go to them. Other areas may produce > 'bass trap' like cavity resonances which the dog will want to avoid. > > I have measured these effects in rooms and also used easily available > computer models [usually used for audio installation] to pick them out. > > Lastly, cars do not function very well as faraday cages because windows > provide huge gaps. To function well the cage would need to be complete > or made of a fine conductive mesh. Radios, GPS and other receivers work > pretty well from inside cars so they cannot be very good faraday cages. All excellent points, but ... Radios don't work very well inside a car without an external antenna (or one taped to the windscreen). I spend a lot of time in the field using hand held radio transceivers, which work better if you put the antenna out of or at least near a window. Yes, a car is not a very good Faraday cage, but ... the "permeability" of e.g. a window opening may probably depend on the length of the waves that are trying to get through it. GPS in the gigahertz range should have no difficulty, those are "centimeter waves" (actually called so in German). A 10 Hz electrical field ... with a wavelength of what? 30,000 km (speed of light is 300,000 km/sec). Actually I suppose this is rather complex ... there should be all sorts of wavelength-dependent diffraction and interference phenomena ... There are many learned associations with cars ... my hounds for example know that we use the car to go on hunting trips, so they will pile in at every opportunity "Hint, hint ..." it is really funny to watch, because of course they are perfectly aware it won't necessarily work - so they try all the harder . John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 19-JUN-2003 16:28:01.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: phobias Gerry Flannigan wrote: > Sure, I treat lots of normal behavior. Just because a behavior is normal > does not mean that it is acceptable (for a pet dog or cat). If I truly think the > behavior is normal, I treat purely with management (controlling the behavior > so that the owner feels better or safer). However if the behavior has pushed > over to what I consider non-normal behavior, I will stress behavior modification > and perhaps medication in addition to management. I think there are occasions where definitely "normal" behavior is better dealt with by training than by management. For example: grabbing food off the table is definitely "normal" (my hounds are up to 28 inches at the shoulder and can effortlessly reach a table top - or jump up on anything less than about 8 feet high ) but I prefer to teach my hounds not to do that, so I can enjoy dinner in peace without having to "manage" anything or even shut them away. Instead they know that if they behave really well, and don't importune the guest of the day, they *might* get some goodies at the end of the meal (variable reward schedule, works well in falconry too, so long as you don't forget to "jackpot" every once in a while, "expectation" is the name of the game ). FWIW I'm a "classical" ethologist (spent about 7 years with Lorenz) and a breeder and user of coursing hounds for many years. I live with animals with rather awesome capabilities, so they need to be civilized around humans. Regards, John -- John Burchard, Ph.D. Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"Gerflannigan@aol.com" 19-JUN-2003 16:38:41.86 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: references about Ritalin There are few references for canine hyperkinesis outside of Corson's work. Try: a. Luescher (1993) Can Vet Journal 34:368-370 -6 hypekinetic dog case reports. Some responded to d-amphetamine, and one to ritalin b. Bareggi, Becker, Ginsberg and Genovese (1978) Psychopharmacology 62:217-224- d-amphetamine treatment c. B,B, G and G (1979) Life Science 24:481-488- d-amphetamine treatment Gerry _________________________________________________________________ Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc Carolina Veterinary Specialists Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina 336-632-0605 (Voice) 336-632-0703 (Fax) gerflannigan@aol.com From: IN%"c.watson@cabi.org" "Charles Watson" 20-JUN-2003 06:49:10.12 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: references about Ritalin Also a quick look on CAB Abstracts (www.cabi-publishing.org) brought these up (relating to treatment for narcolepsy): TI: A case of narcolepsy in a Giant Schnauzer. OT: Ein Fall von Narkolepsie bei einem Riesenschnauzer. AU: Kornberg-M; Kornberg-L; Blanke-E; Wagner-V; Dahme-E AD: Kleintierklinik Dres Kornberg, Saarstr. 143, 5500 Trier, Germany. SO: Kleintierpraxis. 1991, 36: 5, 271-272,274; 17 ref. PY: 1991 LA: German LS: English, French AB: A case report of narcolepsy a central nervous system disorder of the sleeping mechanism, in a Giant Schnauzer is described. Sleeping attacks and episodes of sudden flacid collapse (cataplexy) are typical for the diseases. Two treatments daily with methylphenidate (Ritalin, 0.25 mg/kg) reduced the number of attacks, but the condition worsened after drug withdrawal and the dog was destroyed. Histopathological examination showed malformation of the aqueductus Sylvii and atrophy of the periventricular tissue in the midbrain (mesencephalon), but the authors were uncertain wether these mild lesions could be made responsible for the clinical signs. DE: dog-diseases; brain-; histopathology-; sleep-; nervous-system-diseases OD: dogs- ID: narcolepsy; methylphenidate; Giant-Schnauzer BT: Canis; Canidae; Fissipeda; carnivores; mammals; vertebrates; Chordata; animals CD: Animal-Health-and-Hygiene-General; Animal-Disorders-Not-caused-by-Organisms; Pets-and-Companion-Animals PT: Journal-article IS: 0023-2076 TI: Narcolepsy in a long-haired Dachshund. AU: Heerden-J-van; Eckersley-GN; Van-Heerden-J AD: Fac. Vet. Sci., Med. Univ., 0204 Medunsa, South Africa. SO: Journal-of-the-South-African-Veterinary-Association. 1989, 60: 3, 151-153; 13 ref. PY: 1989 LA: English AB: Narcolepsy was diagnosed in a three-month old, longhaired Dachshund presented with a history of sudden onset of episodes of complete collapse. Littermates or immediate ancestors were not affected. Numerous daily cataplectic attacks as well as excessive sleepiness were the main clinical features. The dog did not respond to treatment with methylphenidate and imipramine. The clinical signs of the disease disappeared after treatment with dexamphetamine. This report describes a case presentation, findings of cerebrospinal fluid assay for catecholamines after various treatment regimens and the response of the patient to treatment. DE: dog-diseases; Therapy-; Case-reports; Nervous-system-diseases OD: Dogs- ID: Narcolepsy; Dachshund BT: Canis; Canidae; Fissipeda; carnivores; mammals; vertebrates; Chordata; animals CC: LL800; LL860; LL070 CD: Animal-Health-and-Hygiene-General; Animal-Disorders-Not-caused-by-Organisms; Pets-and-Companion-Animals PT: Journal-article IS: 0038-2809 UD: 950316 AN: 902201227 > -----Original Message----- > From: Gerflannigan@aol.com [SMTP:Gerflannigan@aol.com] > Sent: 19 June 2003 23:38 > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Re: references about Ritalin > > There are few references for canine hyperkinesis outside of Corson's work. > > Try: > > a. Luescher (1993) Can Vet Journal 34:368-370 > -6 hypekinetic dog case reports. Some responded to d-amphetamine, and > > one to ritalin > b. Bareggi, Becker, Ginsberg and Genovese (1978) Psychopharmacology > 62:217-224- d-amphetamine treatment > c. B,B, G and G (1979) Life Science 24:481-488- d-amphetamine treatment > > Gerry > > _________________________________________________________________ > Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc > Carolina Veterinary Specialists > Greensboro/Charlotte, North Carolina > 336-632-0605 (Voice) > 336-632-0703 (Fax) > gerflannigan@aol.com From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 20-JUN-2003 07:34:45.91 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: thunder phobia Lightning produces a wave at 8 hertz. If some dogs can detect a lightning strike before hearing the thunder, and the dog doesn't know how soon the thunder will rumble or how loud the sound, this sounds a formula for fear conditioning with random punishers. Quick and dirty experiment for someone with a thunder phobic dog. Take a plastic crate, get a used tire free from a tire store, put the crate on the tire and completely wrap the crate in a Mylar covered space blanket. Additional blankets under the space blanket could help muffle sound. The tire would cut both vibration transmitted through floors and the Mylar might help cut electrical fields. Make sure the dog is comfortable and familiar with the crate before confining during a storm and see if the dog appears less fearful. Julie Alexander From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 20-JUN-2003 07:56:15.98 To: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: thunder phobia I often recommend making bolt-holes for phobic dogs and will try adding the space blanket to the outside. It's a good idea, cheap and worth an experiment. Will let you know if it seems to have an effect. Jon. On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 02:39 pm, Julie Alexander wrote: > Lightning produces a wave at 8 hertz. If some dogs can detect a > lightning strike before hearing the thunder, and the dog doesn't know > how soon the thunder will rumble or how loud the sound, this sounds a > formula for fear conditioning with random punishers. > Quick and dirty experiment for someone with a thunder phobic dog. Take > a > plastic crate, get a used tire free from a tire store, put the crate on > the tire and completely wrap the crate in a Mylar covered space > blanket. > Additional blankets under the space blanket could help muffle sound. > The > tire would cut both vibration transmitted through floors and the Mylar > might help cut electrical fields. Make sure the dog is comfortable and > familiar with the crate before confining during a storm and see if the > dog appears less fearful. > Julie Alexander > > > From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 20-JUN-2003 08:07:36.85 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: : thunder phobia greenhouse Mylar might be another alternative, I don't know which would have more metal in it. sure couldn't hurt to try it. hmm, one other that might work even better but is much pricier is the layered Mylar type insulation. We've wrapped our hot water heater in it. The air pockets might help muffle sound as well as the metal dispersing electrical fields. Julie From: IN%"atorregrossa@hotmail.com" "Ann-Marie Torregrossa" 20-JUN-2003 13:21:39.04 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: neophobia in birds

Hello everyone,

I have been a quite bystander on this list for years- but now i am looking for some advise.

I am looking for refferences about neophobia in birds, (any species would be a start) specifically anything about complete singluar diets vs. varying diets daily and which seems to be more effective and comfortable for the animal in a behavioral and nutritional context.

there is plenty of conversation and lore in the zoo community about it but i was wondering if anyone had any experiences, or good refferences that they could share. 

 thanks very much

Ann-Marie

 


Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From: IN%"ENeunteufel@gc.cuny.edu" "Neunteufel, Evelyn" 20-JUN-2003 16:11:45.04 To: IN%"jordi@trilla.net" "'Jordi Trilla '", IN%"dognponyshow@msn.com" "'Dognponyshow MCGEE '", IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" "'stammwood@rcn.com '", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca '" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Dear Jordi, Last week a sudden loud crack of thunder made me jump, but more due to the unexpected surprise. I generally enjoy watching lightning. I doubt that the dog's fear has been affected by us. She came to us at about 10 months of age though. Also my fiance sometimes worries about possible trees falling during storms. The dog is also afraid of firecrackers. (I felt uneasy about those as a child myself, but that was long before I had the dog.) I do have arachnophobia though, which does not seem to have affected my dog or cat at all. Evelyn -----Original Message----- From: Jordi Trilla To: Dognponyshow MCGEE; Neunteufel, Evelyn; stammwood@rcn.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: 6/17/2003 10:43 AM Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Dear coleagues, I would like to "launch" a very simple question to everyone who has a dog with thuderstorm phobia in order to have, at least a first very simple theory to start working whit. Does someone, ANYONE of the owners of these dogs/cats in the family have some little fear of lightling? Maybe non-confesed because of shame? Please, be sincere! We all know dogs can smell fear. If this comes from someone higher in his group level he can easily become extremly frightened. I had a German dogo with this phobia... but I used to carry him to my competitions of olympic shooting where he was absolutely calm. (Sorry, I think I post this example already). However, my mother is afraid of tunderstorms because of a child's experience. Well just a thought... Your turn. Jordi Trilla ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: jordi@trilla.net Lleida Spain Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group euraptors - European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ Dognponyshow MCGEE wrote: Evelyn, Could your cat be responding/reacting to the dog's frantic behavior? With 8 dogs, I feel fortunate to have only one that is thunder-phobic, and that is a very recent development (he is 8 and this is the first year he has been affected). None of the 6 cats are affected either by the storms or the dog's anxiety, however my green-wing macaw has transferred his "Stupid Dog" comment from when a dog bumps his cage to the older dog's anxiety attacks. Quite amusing to observe, although not to the dog, I'd bet. Kasie McGee >From: "Neunteufel, Evelyn" >To: 'cissy stamm ' , 'ethology ' > >Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia >Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:10 -0400 > >Cissy, >My cat usually disappears behind the sofa, when the thunder gets too loud. >I've only noticed this recently, probably because my dog's frantic running >around usually attracts most of my attention. (My dog is getting older and >not responding to the storms as much anymore, but just last night the cat >disappeared behind the sofa again.) > >Evelyn >Graduate Student at the City University of New York > >-----Original Message----- >From: cissy stamm >To: ethology >Sent: 6/10/2003 4:54 PM >Subject: Thunderstorm Phobia > >Has thunderstorm phobia been observed in any animals other than dogs? > >Thanks. > >Cissy _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" 20-JUN-2003 17:03:02.27 To: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: thunder phobia Julie, I have a cabana crate (soft nylon). Since the bottom isn't rigid, I can't put a a tire under it. Would egg crate foam rubber covering the bottom of the crate do? The dog is 115 lbs. and crate trained to this crate. If this set up would accomplish the same thing you're talking about, I'd love to try it. Thanks. Cissy Julie Alexander wrote: > Lightning produces a wave at 8 hertz. If some dogs can detect a > lightning strike before hearing the thunder, and the dog doesn't know > how soon the thunder will rumble or how loud the sound, this sounds a > formula for fear conditioning with random punishers. > Quick and dirty experiment for someone with a thunder phobic dog. Take a > plastic crate, get a used tire free from a tire store, put the crate on > the tire and completely wrap the crate in a Mylar covered space blanket. > Additional blankets under the space blanket could help muffle sound. The > tire would cut both vibration transmitted through floors and the Mylar > might help cut electrical fields. Make sure the dog is comfortable and > familiar with the crate before confining during a storm and see if the > dog appears less fearful. > Julie Alexander > > > > From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 20-JUN-2003 19:17:07.19 To: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: thunder phobia Hi Cissy, My husband is an engineer. He came up with the tire idea. Egg crate might help but would be less effective. Try putting some plywood under the base and then try a tire. A tire would both be insulative for the electrical charge and also absorb any low frequency sounds transmitted through the structure of the house and the floor. The space blanket might help shield the electrical fields, they are inexpensive at sporting goods stores. If it helps at all, you might try the more expensive Mylar waffle/bubble type insulation. With the air space, it might help muffle the sound as well as shield electrical charges. Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: "cissy stamm" To: "Julie Alexander" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 3:59 PM Subject: Re: thunder phobia > Julie, I have a cabana crate (soft nylon). Since the bottom isn't rigid, > I can't put a a tire under it. Would egg crate foam rubber covering the > bottom of the crate do? The dog is 115 lbs. and crate trained to this > crate. If this set up would accomplish the same thing you're talking > about, I'd love to try it. > > Thanks. > > Cissy > > > > Julie Alexander wrote: > > > Lightning produces a wave at 8 hertz. If some dogs can detect a > > lightning strike before hearing the thunder, and the dog doesn't know > > how soon the thunder will rumble or how loud the sound, this sounds a > > formula for fear conditioning with random punishers. > > Quick and dirty experiment for someone with a thunder phobic dog. Take a > > plastic crate, get a used tire free from a tire store, put the crate on > > the tire and completely wrap the crate in a Mylar covered space blanket. > > Additional blankets under the space blanket could help muffle sound. The > > tire would cut both vibration transmitted through floors and the Mylar > > might help cut electrical fields. Make sure the dog is comfortable and > > familiar with the crate before confining during a storm and see if the > > dog appears less fearful. > > Julie Alexander > > > > > > > > > > > From: IN%"stammwood@rcn.com" 20-JUN-2003 19:26:58.56 To: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: thunder phobia Thanks. OK, this is probably a very dumb question: For the mylar to be effective, does it have to be air tight? And if so, might it cause suffocation? Cissy Julie Alexander wrote: > Hi Cissy, > My husband is an engineer. He came up with the tire idea. > Egg crate might help but would be less effective. Try putting some > plywood under the base and then try a tire. A tire would both be > insulative for the electrical charge and also absorb any low frequency > sounds transmitted through the structure of the house and the floor. > The space blanket might help shield the electrical fields, they are > inexpensive at sporting goods stores. If it helps at all, you might try > the more expensive Mylar waffle/bubble type insulation. With the air > space, it might help muffle the sound as well as shield electrical > charges. > Julie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cissy stamm" > To: "Julie Alexander" > Cc: > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 3:59 PM > Subject: Re: thunder phobia > > > >>Julie, I have a cabana crate (soft nylon). Since the bottom isn't >> > rigid, > >>I can't put a a tire under it. Would egg crate foam rubber covering >> > the > >>bottom of the crate do? The dog is 115 lbs. and crate trained to this >>crate. If this set up would accomplish the same thing you're talking >>about, I'd love to try it. >> >>Thanks. >> >>Cissy >> >> >> >>Julie Alexander wrote: >> >> >>>Lightning produces a wave at 8 hertz. If some dogs can detect a >>>lightning strike before hearing the thunder, and the dog doesn't >>> > know > >>>how soon the thunder will rumble or how loud the sound, this sounds >>> > a > >>>formula for fear conditioning with random punishers. >>>Quick and dirty experiment for someone with a thunder phobic dog. >>> > Take a > >>>plastic crate, get a used tire free from a tire store, put the crate >>> > on > >>>the tire and completely wrap the crate in a Mylar covered space >>> > blanket. > >>>Additional blankets under the space blanket could help muffle sound. >>> > The > >>>tire would cut both vibration transmitted through floors and the >>> > Mylar > >>>might help cut electrical fields. Make sure the dog is comfortable >>> > and > >>>familiar with the crate before confining during a storm and see if >>> > the > >>>dog appears less fearful. >>>Julie Alexander >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 20-JUN-2003 20:42:45.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology@Skyway.Usask.Ca" CC: Subj: remember those swimming penguins in San Francisco? --Fw: sfgate - 6.20.03 - At S.F. Zoo, 9 penguin progeny begin journey from chick to adult bird Well, seems those swimmers did take some breaks. Record number of penguin births -- not definitely attributed to the swimming or the new penguins. Seems breeding age of the resident population was ripe. fyi. -margory cohen San Francisco > Leaving their burrows, one webbed foot at a time > At S.F. Zoo, 9 penguin progeny begin journey from chick to adult bird > Patricia Yollin, Chronicle Staff Writer > Friday, June 20, 2003 > ©2003 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback > > URL: > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/06/20/BA216948.DTL > > After swimming more than 6,200 miles all winter, the San Francisco Zoo's > Magellanic marathoners are setting more records this spring. They've > produced a bumper crop of penguin chicks, who met their public -- and each > other -- Thursday morning. > // > From early November until Valentine's Day, all 52 adult penguins, incited by > six habitual swimmers from Ohio, circumnavigated their pool. Normally couch, > or rather burrow, potatoes, they swam about 126,672 laps -- the equivalent > of three South American migrations. > > "Sometimes change is good," Dunker said, musing on the plethora of penguins. > > "But I just don't know. Let's put it this way -- (the swim) didn't hurt > them." > > On the other hand, more pairs reached breeding age this year. Nineteen > females laid 38 eggs total -- two apiece -- and 14 were fertile. After 40 > days and 40 nights, 13 hatched, starting on Mother's Day and ending June 2. > From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 21-JUN-2003 09:44:05.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia At 04:54 PM 6/10/03 -0400, you wrote: Hi folks, This has been a great discussion and I apologize that I didn't have time to respond until now. I wanted to go back to the original question with an observation I had made. Also I have some ideas about the development of these phobias/fears. Sorry, if it comes late in the discussion. >Has thunderstorm phobia been observed in any animals other than dogs? > >Thanks. > >Cissy > I have observed an interesting behavior pattern in my guard llama. My llama bonded with the sheep flock and would graze with them, lead them to and from the pastures. He was quite protective of his flock. If a storm came up when the sheep were down in the pasture, he would get agitated and run around driving them up to the knoll by the barn where they always bedded down at night. Now the sheep, with their protective wool coats, are pretty unconcerned about storms and wouldn't come up until the rain had gotten more severe, so the llama was driving them up before they would have come up on their own. Usually he would drive them up before the storm actually hit, just at the time the wind starts picking up. While the sheep were still milling around on the knoll, the llama would lie down. Generally when llamas lie down, they look a lot like sea monsters, with their body lying down and a long neck sticking up vertically like fanciful pictures of the Loch Ness monster. But when my llama would lie down after driving the sheep up before the storm, he would lay his neck stretched out horizontally on the ground in front of him. I never saw him assume this posture except when there was a certain kind of storm. I always wondered what this strange posture meant. Several years ago, I attended a behavior conference and there was a woman there speaking on the behavior of vicuna, a related South American camilid. Out of curiosity, I asked her what the vicuna do when there was a lightening storm. "No one would know that," she told me. She explained that in the high, wide plateaus where these animals live, lightening storms are very dangerous. There are no trees and a man walking out on the plain would be the tallest thing around and could easily get struck down by lightening. "I've never seen what the vicuna do," she told me "because I am always in a shelter where it is safe." So that got me wondering, a llama standing or lying down with its tall head sticking up would also be a tall lightening strikable object in an area with no trees and severe lightening storms. Perhaps the llama evolved to lie down and put its head down to prevent lightening strikes? Or perhaps it is coincidence and I just have a weird llama and a lot of imagination...... I have several llamas now and my guard llama now prefers to hang out with them instead of the sheep and I don't recall seeing the others do this behavior--but since this discussion came up, there hasn't been a thunderstorm so I haven't been able to check what they do. They do always lie down in any kind of bad weather. Many species have natural "danger avoidance" behaviors that apply to things of evolutionary significance. Certainly the work by Mineka and Cook, the monkey studies already mentioned by Evelyn Neunteufel, would suggest that there are certain harmful things that an animal is born with the ability to form an avoidance fear of, things like a sudden precipice, snakes, spiders, sudden loud noises. Mineka and Cook also showed that social modeling could cause these fears to develop rapidly and once developed was strong and persistent, but only to those stimuli presenting specific hazards in that species evolutionary past. In other words, when they showed naive monkeys another monkey screaming and running in terror from a snake, or crocodile, the naive monkeys developed an immediate, persistent fear of snakes or crocodiles. But when they showed them a monkey running away in terror from a vase of flowers or a stuffed bunny (using video tape), they didn't form a fear-avoidance pattern. This argues for the concept of evolutionary preparedness, that there are certain stimuli where prepared avoidance behavior would have clear adaptive value. And this makes a clear argument that social modeling can bring these fears into full development, so the question as to the owner's reactions to storms was very appropriate. It is likely part of the puzzle. Certain evolutionarily significant dangers also have built-in specific defense reactions. Running away works for many dangers. Freezing works for others, like a deer freezing if it sees a predator approaching. But freezing in a deer, which is adaptive if it is in a forest and there is a predator approaching, is maladaptive when the fast moving approaching object is an automobile, something the deer hasn't had in its evolutionary history for very many generations. I have wondered if the panic behavior might develop in part because an animal is presented with an evolutionarily significant fear stimulus (thunderstorm) and then is prevented for engaging in the specific defense reaction for that stimulus. Perhaps the panic behavior seen in many thunderstorm fearful dogs is a result of them not being able to exhibit the normal fear avoidance behavior because of the random circumstances of living in our homes and having their movement restricted: as an extreme example, if the dog is chained in the back yard and has no access to shelter when a storm approaches. Or if a llama were forced to stand. In other words, if there is something that you are evolutionarily pre-sensitized to have an avoidance reaction to and then you are prevented from engaging in the avoidance behavior, would a severe fear or panic reaction then result? And like the fears seen in Mineka and Cook's monkeys, this fear could form rapidly and be severe and persistent. I think there is evidence that these panic reactions to an evolutionarily significant stimulus are possible to develop following a single incident, as was seen in the monkey experiments, which may explain why there is such randomness in the histories of the dogs that develop the panic attacks (as Dr. Hetts described). Identifying the single event which caused the panic to blossom in every single dog is next to impossible, so the variety of presentations seems bewildering to us. And there may also be factors of sensitive time periods that we also don't yet understand. Still I think, based on the monkey studies, there is ample evidence that these fears are evolutionarily based, there is probably a potential for them to develop in most dogs and they develop because of some unidentified trigger that happens at some unidentified sensitive circumstance or time period. Sorry for the long answer. This has long been a curiosity of mine. Let me know if you wish some references for the Mineka and Cook studies. I think they are very beneficial for understanding this. I am very interested in how the insulated dog crate experiments turn out so I hope all of you who try it report back. This would be a good project for a formal research experiment. Hopefully someone here will be inspired to take this from anecdote to data. Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS Moscow ID, USA From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 21-JUN-2003 10:30:36.14 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia > I am very interested in how the insulated dog crate experiments turn out so > I hope all of you who try it report back. This would be a good project for > a formal research experiment. Hopefully someone here will be inspired to > take this from anecdote to data. > > Janice Janice, If it works I claim credit for the idea! If it doesn't, I'll give the credit to my husband for coming up with it. :) Julie Alexander http://talismandogs.homestead.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 21-JUN-2003 22:31:08.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: thunder phobia Julie Alexander wrote: > > Lightning produces a wave at 8 hertz. If some dogs can detect a > lightning strike before hearing the thunder, and the dog doesn't know > how soon the thunder will rumble or how loud the sound, this sounds a > formula for fear conditioning with random punishers. > Quick and dirty experiment for someone with a thunder phobic dog. Take a > plastic crate, get a used tire free from a tire store, put the crate on > the tire and completely wrap the crate in a Mylar covered space blanket. > Additional blankets under the space blanket could help muffle sound. The > tire would cut both vibration transmitted through floors and the Mylar > might help cut electrical fields. Make sure the dog is comfortable and > familiar with the crate before confining during a storm and see if the > dog appears less fearful. 1) You might get a better shielding effect by connecting the metal coating of the space blanket to ground with a wire or grounding strap ... 2) You need to make sure there is enough ventilation that the dog doesn't suffocate ... John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"hmcmurra@elp.rr.com" "heather mcmurray" 22-JUN-2003 00:20:30.73 To: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: thunder phobia maybe dogs are smarter than people because when I was a kid I knew a farmer's family member who was struck by lightening standing on the back porch watching a storm - Heather ; ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Burchard" To: "Applied ethology list" Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 10:34 PM Subject: Re: thunder phobia > Julie Alexander wrote: > > > > Lightning produces a wave at 8 hertz. If some dogs can detect a > > lightning strike before hearing the thunder, and the dog doesn't know > > how soon the thunder will rumble or how loud the sound, this sounds a > > formula for fear conditioning with random punishers. > > Quick and dirty experiment for someone with a thunder phobic dog. Take a > > plastic crate, get a used tire free from a tire store, put the crate on > > the tire and completely wrap the crate in a Mylar covered space blanket. > > Additional blankets under the space blanket could help muffle sound. The > > tire would cut both vibration transmitted through floors and the Mylar > > might help cut electrical fields. Make sure the dog is comfortable and > > familiar with the crate before confining during a storm and see if the > > dog appears less fearful. > > 1) You might get a better shielding effect by connecting the metal coating of > the space blanket to ground with a wire or grounding strap ... > > 2) You need to make sure there is enough ventilation that the dog doesn't > suffocate ... > > John > -- > John Burchard > Tepe Gawra Salukis > http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ > saluqi@ix.netcom.com > From: IN%"M.Haskell@ed.sac.ac.uk" 23-JUN-2003 03:44:45.77 To: IN%"atorregrossa@hotmail.com" "Ann-Marie Torregrossa", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: neophobia in birds 0100,0100,0100Hi Ann-Marie I did some work with Dr Michel Picard and Dr Maria Vilarino at Nouzilly, France in this area a couple of years ago. The experiment we did was based on Michel's observation that, like you say, birds seem to react in a neophobic way to new diet formulation. In this case it was broiler chickens, and as you perhaps know, during the rearing of chicks, the diet changes a few times. These changes are not massive though: one brown crumbly feed to another, and are mostly changes in ingredients to present the appropriate levels of protein,fat etc. However, birds seem very good at detecting this. Michel/Maria might be able to give some more info. on the exact phenomenon. This is interesting though: is this in a zoo setting? What species is it? Cheers, Marie Here are some references: Picard et al: A behavioural approach to feeding broilers. Annales de Zootechnie, 48, 233-245. Picard et al., 2000. Visual and tactile cues perceived by chickens. In: McNab and Boorman (eds). Poultry Feedstuffs: Supply, composition and nutritive value, British Poultry Science Ltd. Vilarino et al., 1998. Ability of broiler chicks to detect hidden food. Arch Geflugelk, 62, 156-162 Haskell et al., 2001. De broiler chicks have a cognitive representation of food quality? Appetitive, behavioural and ingestive responses to a change in diet quality. Applied Animal behaviour Science, 72, 63-77. >Times New RomanHello everyone, >I have been a quite bystander on this list for years- but now i am >looking for some advise. >I am looking for refferences about neophobia in birds, (any >species would be a start)specifically anything about complete >singluar diets vs. varying diets daily and which seems to be more >effective and comfortable for the animalin a behavioral and >nutritional context. >there is plenty of conversation and lore in the zoo community >about it but i was wondering if anyone had any experiences, or >good refferences that they could share. >thanks very much >Ann-Marie0100,0100,0100Arial From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D.B. Cameron" 27-JUN-2003 20:47:04.51 To: IN%"gt7684b@prism.gatech.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia Another thought on TX phobia. I practiced in Cleveland, OH for 43 years. In that time I observed a ton of thunderstorms as the summertime brought many, many TX's from Indiana and southern Michigan to our area on a near weekly basis; perhaps more often. Of course, my patients and clients observed the same events at the same frequency which quite naturally led to fairly frequent requests for my professional assistance for these anxious dogs. That is to say that I feel adequately experienced in this area of behavior. So allow me to offer my Dx for TXP: It is largely a learned behavior; taught, inadvertently, by the dog's own owners. My Tx for TXP suggests that this is true as it works quite reliably; of course not perfectly. An illustration of a therapeutic trial if you will. Here is my reasoning (assisted by other professionals along the way) which leads to the treatment mentioned above. I attach my comments to the post below as, IMO, the suggestion that TXP is not a wolf problem seems to support my theory. Here is the ontogeny of TXP as I understand it: - Signs of a TX (sights, sounds, falling air pressure, what else) appear in the ambience. - A given TX-naive dog is understandably made anxious by these dramatic signs. (Very likely some wolves in a similar situation are also made anxious, but since there are almost always no significant associated unpleasant events, these wolves habituate to the TX's and that is that. No wolf TXP.) - The above mentioned dog seeks out her/his owner for comfort and, perhaps, to observe the owner to see how an individual should react to a TX. The owner(s) react to the anxious pet in a very typical owner-intuitive manner. They provide soothing kind words, strokes, and maybe even a comforting lap. - This scene is repeated over and over as the summer goes along. - I do not have to tell this group that this dog has been very effectively trained to be increasingly anxious, and perhaps phobic, about TX's. So if the dog has been taught to be phobic about TX's, the logical, IMO, treatment for this is to teach the dog that TX's are FUN and DESIRABLE!!! And if that is so then Bill Campbell's "Jollying" would seem to be the perfect mode. So . . . . When a dog becomes anxious in the presence of a developing TX, the SECOND best thing that an owner can do is to PERFECTLY ignore the dog. That is, to take absolutely no notice of the dog's antics; not even a glance or an eye blink. In fact, casually leaving the room or area could be part of this perfect ignoring. The FIRST best thing to do is the "jollying". This takes the form of the owner, or better yet the owners, getting really fun-silly about the coming TX. I tell my clients to act in such a way that if they did it in public, the cops would come after them with a net. The idea is to associate the TX signs with obvious great joy. I suggest giggling, dancing, bouncing a ball off the wall, tossing a pillow back and forth with another person, whatever would seem fun and joyful to an observer. When the lightening flashes and the thunder crashes is the time to show the most obvious silliness and joy. In addition to the outrageous joy, the owners are specifically enjoined from making any attempt to include the dog. They are to have fun, but only in the presence of, not at, the pet. The effect is as if going to a party with a severe headache, only to forget the headache when all of one's friends are having a great time and you can have a great time also if you just allow it to happen. Incidentally, the reason the owners are not to invite the dog into the fun is that actively including the pet allows her/him to, in effect, say, "No, not me," which makes it easier for her/him to maintain the learned, undesired behavior. So if she/he cannot say no, she/he MAY become involved with the joy. So here we have an anxious dog watching her/his most loved people having great fun in the presence of a most fearful event; a massive conflict of interest if there ever was one. In the beginning the dog will most likely continue her/his anxiety, leave the scene, or just lie in a corner watching this bizarre event. But over time (and several to many TX's), with repeated TX jollying, and full non-soothing, the patient is very likely to allow her/himself to relax and join the fun; thus forgetting the fearful part of TX's. DBC > ^ ^ D. B. Cameron, DVM Animal Behavior Clinic > < \ / > 15353 N. Bloomfield Road Nevada City, CA 95959 > ! ! > > On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:57:54 -0400 (EDT) Michalchik@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 6/18/2003 9:58:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, > simon@gadbois.org writes: > > Actually, I never saw that behaviour in wolves. They are surprisingly > not affected by sometimes drastic and sudden weather changes. Remember > also that a full pack does not fit in a den... Only the nursing mother > and the pups would take advantage of the shelter, for obvious reasons. > S. Gadbois > > > > That is very interesting. I wonder if this has something to do with > the juvenilization of the dogs psychology through breeding for > tameness. > > > .. On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 17:12:17 -0400 "Charlotte G. Slater" writes: > Neither myself nor my husband have any sort of fear of thunderstorms, > in fact, > we both love them and look forward to a good booming downpour like > we > experienced in South Africa as children. My dog on the other hand > does not > respond so well to the storms. She was birthed and raised by me, > and has no > traumatizing events associated with any sort of loud noise or > electrical > storms. When the storms start, she becomes frantic and > inconsolable, > desperately seeking shelter. I also have a cat who displays the > same behavior > to a lesser degree. I do not have a full history on the cat, since > he was a > shelter cat we adopted as an adult. > > I hope this helps with your theory! =) > -- > ~Charlotte Greer Slater > > School of Psychology > GEORGIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY > > > > > The cat in my lap said: > "si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes" > > > > > > Quoting Jordi Trilla : > > > So... no theory so far :-) > > > > This reminds me a quote: > > > > "The great tragedy of Science - the slaying of a beautiful > hypothesis by an > > ugly fact." > > Thomas H. Huxley (1825 - 1895) > > > > Jordi Trilla > > ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: > jordi@trilla.net > > Lleida > > Spain > > Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group > euraptors - > > European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ > > > > > > Stephanie Kroitor wrote: > > Dear Jordi, > > > > I have a dog with a thunderstorm phobia. I live alone and have > absolutely no > > fear of thunderstorms myself. In fact I love thunderstorms. I find > that if I > > arrive home during a thunderstorm my dog will be in an acute state > of anxiety > > even though there as been nobody with him. I think he is more > comfortable > > when I'm with him then he is when he is alone in a thunderstorm. I > believe > > that the fear is entirely his own. > > > > Stephanie Kroitor > > Rouge Valley Farm > > Harrington, Quebec > > Canada > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jordi Trilla > > To: Dognponyshow MCGEE ; ENeunteufel@gc.cuny.edu ; > stammwood@rcn.com ; > > Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 10:43 AM > > Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia > > > > > > Dear coleagues, > > > > I would like to "launch" a very simple question to everyone who > has a dog > > with thuderstorm phobia in order to have, at least a first very > simple theory > > to start working whit. > > > > Does someone, ANYONE of the owners of these dogs/cats in the > family have some > > little fear of lightling? Maybe non-confesed because of shame? > Please, be > > sincere! > > > > We all know dogs can smell fear. If this comes from someone higher > in his > > group level he can easily become extremly frightened. > > > > I had a German dogo with this phobia... but I used to carry him to > my > > competitions of olympic shooting where he was absolutely calm. > (Sorry, I > > think I post this example already). However, my mother is afraid > of > > tunderstorms because of a child' s experience. > > > > Well just a thought... Your turn. > > > > Jordi Trilla > > ICQ# 4620093 - Yahoo Messenger: dofi_8 - MSN & e-mail: > jordi@trilla.net > > Lleida > > Spain > > Please, animal lovers, we need you! Join now our Yahoo Group > euraptors - > > European Birds of Prey: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euraptors/ > > > > > > > > > > Dognponyshow MCGEE wrote: > > Evelyn, > > > > Could your cat be responding/reacting to the dog's frantic > behavior? > > With 8 dogs, I feel fortunate to have only one that is > thunder-phobic, and > > that is a very recent development (he is 8 and this is the first > year he has > > > > been affected). None of the 6 cats are affected either by the > storms or the > > dog's anxiety, however my green-wing macaw has transferred his > "Stupid Dog" > > comment fr om when a dog bumps his cage to the older dog's anxiety > attacks. > > Quite amusing to observe, although not to the dog, I'd bet. > > > > Kasie McGee > > > > > > >From: "Neunteufel, Evelyn" > > >To: 'cissy stamm ' , 'ethology ' > > > > > >Subject: RE: Thunderstorm Phobia > > >Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:10 -0400 > > > > > >Cissy, > > >My cat usually disappears behind the sofa, when the thunder gets > too loud. > > >I've only noticed this recently, probably because my dog's > frantic running > > >around usually attracts most of my attention. (My dog is getting > older and > > >not responding to the storms as much anymore, but just last night > the cat > > >disappeared behind the sofa again.) > > > > > >Evelyn > > >Graduate Student at the City University of New York > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: cissy stamm > > >To: ethology > > >Sent: 6/10/2003 4:54 PM > > >Subject: Thunderstorm Phobia > > > > > >Has thunderstorm phobia been observed in any animals other than > dogs? > > > > > >Thanks. > > > > > >Cissy > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN 8 helps eli minate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > > > > > ^ ^ D. B. Cameron, DVM Animal Behavior Clinic < \ / > 15353 N. Bloomfield Road Nevada City, CA 95959 ! ! 530.265.9341 .. Ships are safe in harbor . . . But that is not what ships are for. From: IN%"pec@netcabo.pt" "paulocardoso" 29-JUN-2003 18:45:12.62 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: badger behavior A problem to solve... In order to quantifying a few behavioral aspects, particularly interactions, of badgers in a mediterranean area, video recording of activity of individuals during a 3 month period was used. No individual identification of animals was done so measurements concerns only to time spent in interactions between juveniles x juveniles, adults x adults, juveniles x adults. Can one obtain an index of per hour or frequencies of interactions without identifying individuals? How one can obtain frequencies of interactions or other quantitative measure of interactions with this limitations? I would apreciate any comments on this matter best wishes Paulo From: IN%"hmcmurra@elp.rr.com" "heather mcmurray" 30-JUN-2003 00:45:04.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: thunderstorm phobia - an example in a rabbit From http://www.busybunny.com/memorial/memorial.html a story of a little rabbit afraid of storms.... Stuart, our little black bunny-butt! Born November 2000, died March 2, 2003. What a character! We will always remember you - our little Ghetto bun - always grateful for anything and everything - you started your little life outside on a pool deck in the heat and the summer storms. I could always tell when a storm was coming because you would hide under the covers on the bed with not even your little white nose showing. Your unbridled joy and exuberance will always be in our hearts. I know you were there to met Floppy when he crossed over the Rainbow Bridge and gave him comfort. I can just see the two of you binkie-ing and playing, together once again. From: IN%"reddragn@bossig.com" "Julie Alexander" 30-JUN-2003 22:09:05.43 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: BBC NEWS Science-Nature Mice can 'foretell earthquakes' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3030780.stm