From: IN%"tethys@tethys.org" "Tethys Research Institute" 16-JUN-1998 02:04:42.73 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Training courses on cetaceans in the Mediterranean TRAINING COURSES ON CETACEAN RESEARCH IN THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA The Tethys Research Institute, founded in Italy in 1986, is a non-profit NGO dedicated to the preservation of the marine environment. It focuses on marine animals and particularly on cetaceans inhabiting the Mediterranean Sea, and aims at protecting its biodiversity by promoting the adoption of a precautionary approach for the management of natural resources. Tethys' scientific activities are largely supported by the participation of paying volunteers to courses organised within the research projects. Courses include six to twelve-day periods spent at the field bases (Island of Losinj, Croatia and Island of Kalamos, Greece) or aboard ocean-going boats in the Ligurian Sea. The training of participants consists in their direct involvement in all activities conducted in the field, including data collection at sea, data entering and analysis, boat/base upkeep, and participation in actions promoted by Tethys personnel (inspection of stranded cetaceans, observations from vantage points along the coast, restoration of base facilities, etc.). Participants are taught how to collect data through brief lectures, held to introduce them to field work protocols and to practical rules for safety on board. During the course period, a series of theme lectures on cetacean research methods are held by Tethys researchers with the help of slide projectors, computers, popular books and scientific papers. Conservation issues are discussed into detail, thus promoting awareness and direct involvement in nature protection campaigns. During the course, the participants will have the opportunity to spend several days in close contact to the animals, observe their natural behavior, contribute to research activities, and ultimately get caught by the charm of free-ranging whales and dolphins. IONIAN DOLPHIN PROJECT Island of Kalamos (Greece) The research focuses on the study of the behavioral ecology of two sympatric, inshore communities of common and bottlenose dolphins. The study is providing, crucial information about the biology and ecology of the common dolphin, a species that has drastically declined in the Mediterranean Sea in the past decades. The work is carried out from inflatable craft and from vantage points along the coast, in an area of stunning beauty and great naturalistic interest. Participants and researchers are housed at the field station, a typical and ancient Greek house situated in a very small village on the island of Kalamos. Research methodologies include photo-identification, computer-assisted focal group behavioral sampling, focal individual respiration sampling, and the remote collection of minuscule skin biopsy samples for genetic and toxicological analyses. Courses take place from April to October. Each course lasts 12 days (arrival and departure days included) and can welcome a maximum of 6 participants. Prices, varying from 1,075,000 ITL (616 US$) to 1,325,000 ITL (759 US$) according to the period, include food and accomodation. Transportation to and from the field base, and a personal insurance (26,000 ITL or 15 US$) are excluded. ADRIATIC DOLPHIN PROJECT Island of Losinj (Croatia) A resident community of bottlenose dolphins is the object of a research initiated in 1987, which represents the longest study on wild cetaceans in the Mediterranean. The research highlighted several aspects of Adriatic bottlenose dolphins social structure and behavior, which are nowdays the only regular cetacean species inhabiting these waters. Photoidentification surveys are consistently undertaken on a daily basis from a small craft. Behavioral sampling is aimed at studying parental and alloparental cares, as well as potential disturbance caused by boat traffic to dolphins. Besides scientific activities, the Adriatic Dolphin project is actively involved in local public awareness, by the organization of lectures and special events dedicated to the dolphins. Researchers and course participants are hosted at the field base, which is located in the small village of Veli Losinj, on the island of Losinj. Courses last 12 days (arrival and departure days included), and are organized from April to October, opened to a maximum of 6 participants. Prices, varying from 1,075,000 ITL (616 US$) to 1,325,000 ITL (759 US$), include accomodation at the field base and food. Transportation to and from the field base, and a personal insurance (26,000 ITL or 15 US$) are excluded. MEDITERRANEAN FIN WHALE PROGRAMME Ligurian Sea (Italy) The research is dedicated to the study of the population of fin whales, the only species of cetacean mysticete regularly present in the Mediterranean Sea. It takes place, since 1990, in the Western Ligurian Sea and in the Corsican Sea, which represent the summer feeding ground for the fin whales. Aboard the motor-sailer Gemini Lab the researchers monitor the waters comprised between Liguria and the Island of Corsica in order to collect data concerning fin whale individual recognition, habitat preferences, kinship and gender determination, and load of contaminants stored in their tissues. Behavioral studies are conducted on focal individuals in order to investigate the degree of disturbance caused to whales by boat traffic, which is particularly intense in the area. Cruises last for 6 days, although it is possible to attend two consecutive cruises, and are opened to a maximum of 10 participants. Courses begin on June 19th and end on October 1st. Prices vary from 870,000 ITL (498 US$) to 1,000,0000 ITL (572 US$) for 6-days cruises and from 1,650,000 ITL (945 US$) to 1,960,000 ITL (1,122 US$) for 12-days cruises. Prices include accommodation and food aboard the Gemini Lab. Embarkation takes place at the harbour of Portosole, San Remo (Italy). Transportation to and from Portosole, and a personal insurance of 26,000 ITL (15 US$) are excluded. CONTINENTAL SLOPE ODONTOCETE PROJECT (SLOPE) Ligurian Sea (Italy) The research focuses on the distribution and ecology of the odontocete species inhabiting the Ligurian Sea, together with their social structure, behaviour, and foraging ecology; contaminant loads and genetic variability within the species are also investigated. The Ligurian Sea continental slope, where most of the odontocetes are sighted, is characterised by an outstanding biological diversity and a high abundance of cetaceans compared to the rest of the Mediterranean Sea. The species under investigation include: the Risso's dolphin (Grampus griseus), the striped dolphin (Stenella coeruleoalba), the sperm whale (Physeter catodon), the pilot whale (Globicephala melas) and the Cuvier's beaked whale (Ziphius cavirostris). Photoidentification data and direct observation provide the basis for ecological and behavioral studies. Underwater acoustic recordings are collected and associated to video-recordings of peculiar behaviors. Cruises last for 6 days, from June 6th to October 30th, and are opened to a maximum of 3 participants. Costs, including accomodation on a sailing boat and food, vary from 850,000 ITL (487 US$) to 1,000,000 ITL (572 US$). Embarkation takes place at the harbour of Santo Stefano al Mare, Imperia (Italy). Transportation to and from the embarkation place, and a personal insurance of 26,000 ITL (15 US$) are excluded. ======== Further information about course programmes, schedules and prices, as well as the booking form can be obtained from: Tethys Research Institute / Volunteer Programmes Viale G.B. Gadio 2 I-20121 Milano, Italy ph. +39 02 72001947 fax +39 02 72001946 e-mail: tethys@tethys.org http://www.tethys.org ====================== Tethys Research Institute Viale G.B. Gadio 2 I-20121 Milano, Italy ph. +39 02 72001947 fax +39 02 72001946 e-mail: tethys@tethys.org http://www.tethys@tethys.org ====================== From: IN%"MARYB@LAB0.VET.ED.ac.uk" "Mary Booth" 16-JUN-1998 04:52:00.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE:Hoax virus warning!! Dear colleagues, It has been confirmed for me by our service provider at Edinburgh Uni. that 'Win a Holiday' is a HOAX. other hoaxes are... Good Times Join the crew Death ray AOL V4.0 Cookie Internet Cleanup Day Bill Gates Hoax Chain letters are... Penpal Greetings Make money fast America Online Upgrade Bud Frogs Screen Saver A little girl dying Jessica Mydek. I hope that this information reasures people. Best wishes, Mary Booth From: IN%"joseph.garner@New.oxford.ac.uk" "Joseph Garner" 16-JUN-1998 05:25:39.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Experimental design Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick here, but... > > Also, nothing existed unless it passed a stat test. > The universe viewed through RA Fisher and Guilford or Ghiselli. > > > This factor is still chiseled in marble among biologists. Nothing is >pertinent unless a stat test has been run. Not even my molecular trees >have meaning without stats. > >Kelly C. Kissane > Applied ethology has a murky enough reputation in some corners without us giving anyone ammunition to dismiss the work we do. It's a lot harder to argue against a well designed experiment with rigorous statistics, than it is against an arm-chair hypothesis supported by circumstatial evidence. Doing good science aside, If we want to change legislation, or persaude producers to alter husbandry procedures, or influence veterinary practice, then we need the strongest possible evidence. At the end of the day, a p-value gives you a measure of the beliveablity of a result, which is essential for us to know as scientists, and is essential for persauding producers, or legislators to tkae notice of our work. Cheers Joe --------------------------------- Joseph Garner, Animal Behaviour Research Group, Zoology Dept. Oxford University, South Parks Road, OX1 3PS Tel: (0)1865 271214 Page: 01523 169589 Fax: (0)1865 310447 From: IN%"MARYB@LAB0.VET.ED.ac.uk" "Mary Booth" 16-JUN-1998 05:25:53.88 CC: Subj: RE: email virus hoaxes Dear Wes, Thanks very much for your info on web sites for virus hoaxes. They are not easy to find for the uninitiated like me. thanks again, Mary Booth From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 16-JUN-1998 05:43:23.43 To: IN%"J.Goldberg@cranfield.ac.uk" "Jeffrey Goldberg" CC: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve" Subj: RE: prejudices Message text written by Jeffrey Goldberg >What these critics over-look is that science makes use of various proceedures specifically to minimize these sorts of problems. It may not do so perfectly, but the fact that it has developed methods and procedures specifically to reduce the damage caused by bias is the clearest indication that science not only acknowledges the problem, but tries to do something about it. < Evolutionary stuff! Science is about "being right" for many scientists, who are, by self selection and the hierarchic organization of science, apt to be brighter,= more active & territorial, less need for sleep, and more apt to engage in= several intercourses (even Einstein??). Thus, scientists (like other driven people) fudge, discount, refuse to replicate their own or others' data. Such determination has some higher correlated incidence of "lying= and stealing" and other territorial/hierarchy control techniques. = Nobelists when students were more likely to have sought other Nobelists a= s alphas and mentors. = Can be productive when two people who absolutely hate each other agree on= a set of findings. Probably saves the whole show! Science is more wonderful than anything else (almost) I know; possibly because it has its own share of scoundrels concentrated at the top (some = of whom are detectable by unusual volume of publication ... see recent articles in Science on web detectives and catching plagiarists) and who would not be at the top if they were not scoundrels periodically. Jim Brody From: IN%"a.kwint@noldus.nl" "Aurelia Kwint" 16-JUN-1998 09:06:01.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Deadline approaching: Video Analysis System to be won This is a reminder that entries for the video contest organized by Noldus Information Technology are accepted until 30 June 1998. The first prize for this is a full Video Analysis System. Full details about the contest, including a contest form, can be found at http://www.noldus.com/news/contest.htm. If you do not have web access, feel free to email me to receive the contest form by fax. We look forward to your participation! Aurelia Kwint Consultant ______________________________________ Aurelia Kwint Consultant Noldus Information Technology b.v. Costerweg 5 P.O. Box 268 6700 AG Wageningen The Netherlands Phone: +31-(0)317-497677 Fax: +31-(0)317-424496 E-mail: a.kwint@noldus.nl WWW: http://www.noldus.com From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 16-JUN-1998 21:07:40.55 To: IN%"joseph.garner@New.oxford.ac.uk" "Joseph Garner" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Experimental design Message text written by Joseph Garner >Applied ethology has a murky enough reputation in some corners without u= s giving anyone ammunition to dismiss the work we do. It's a lot harder to argue against a well designed experiment with rigorous statistics, than i= t is against an arm-chair hypothesis supported by circumstatial evidence. Doing good science aside, If we want to change legislation, or persaude producers to alter husbandry procedures, or influence veterinary practice= , then we need the strongest possible evidence. At the end of the day, a p-value gives you a measure of the beliveablity of a result, which is essential for us to know as scientists, and is essential for persauding producers, or legislators to tkae notice of our work.< I sympathize. However, there are more choices than the two you offer me;= further, the triteness about liars, damned liars, and statisticians comes= to mind ... especially with self-selected assignment of subjects. Most o= f our social science and a lot of our medical research edifice is vulnerabl= e on these issues. It's a personal thing ... I like the individual, the repeated measures, t= he clatter of relays, and shifts in performances and strategies with changes= in conditions. It's ethological, it's scientific, and it lives! Agree with you ... can't stand arm chairs! Or some of their occupants! Jim Brody From: IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com" 16-JUN-1998 23:41:59.13 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com", IN%"J.Goldberg@cranfield.ac.uk" CC: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" Subj: RE: prejudices In a message dated 98-06-16 07:43:28 EDT, Jim Brody writes: << Science is more wonderful than anything else (almost) I know; possibly because it has its own share of scoundrels concentrated at the top (some of whom are detectable by unusual volume of publication ... see recent articles in Science on web detectives and catching plagiarists) and who would not be at the top if they were not scoundrels periodically. >> Very, very true, as Martha Sherwood noted in an essay a while back on theft of work from undergrads. However let's applaud the rare heroes among us. Roughly eleven months ago, the researchers who had come to the conclusion that environmental pollutants--man-made chemicals--exacerbate the effects of estrogen, thus causing damage to male, female, human, and animal wrote a letter to _Science_ showing the kind of courage the scientific ethos dictates but the humans who allegedly work within that ethos seldom achieve. They announced that they had not been able to replicate their study, nor had any of those who'd followed up on their initial findings. Hence they were repudiating a conclusion which, by now, has become part of the permanent trove of factoids planted in the European and American mind by a mass media which (bless it) continues to cover science more than flying saucer fantasies and creationist shennanigans. Alas, this is the only such act of bravery I can remember seeing in the four decades I've been involved in science. (Admittedly, my memory is a sieve.) Howard ---------- Howard Bloom (founder: International Paleopsychology Project; member: New York Academy of Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, American Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and Evolution Society, European Sociobiological Society; board member: Epic of Evolution Society) International Paleopsychology Project 705 President Street Brooklyn, NY 11215 phone 718 622 2278 fax 718 398 2551 e-mail howard@paleopsych.org for two chapters from The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History, see www.bookworld.com/lucifer From: IN%"J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk" "Jeffrey Goldberg" 17-JUN-1998 01:02:57.83 To: IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com" CC: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" Subj: RE: prejudices On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 HowlBloom@aol.com wrote: > [...] However let's applaud the rare heroes among us. Roughly eleven > months ago, the researchers [...] announced that they had not been able > to replicate their study, nor had any of those who'd followed up on > their initial findings. Hence they were repudiating a conclusion [...] > Alas, this is the only such act of bravery I can remember seeing in the > four decades I've been involved in science. I've seen a couple of similar things in linguistics about claims that had not reach the publics attention. Once an accepted paper was withdrawn from publication by its author (Geoffrey K. Pullum) because of a comment that a begining graduate student (Caroline Coleman) made pointing out a flaw. He could have waited before investigating (which involved reading an unpublished dissertation which Caroline may be been the only person in North America to be aware of at the time.) But he actually had the paper withdrawn. The disseration challenged an acted factoid about the passive construction in Achenese which Pullum was providing a theory for. I've also seen all of the nasty things as well. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 17-JUN-1998 07:32:06.91 To: IN%"phausman@digizen.net" "INTERNET:phausman@digizen.net", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" CC: Subj: ear, nose, and throat Message text written by INTERNET:phausman@digizen.net >To be accepted by the Nobel Committee, any Dr. Jim alternative explanation for ADHD will have to account for the sex difference. Do boys get more ear infections than girls in early life? = Now that I've asked, let me note that I think this could be plausible, theoretically at least. If boys mature less rapidly than girls, perhaps that applies to the immune system as well, making them more susceptible to infection early in life. As I recall, in adulthood men are more susceptible to infection (I tripped across this while researching explanations for AIDS affecting males disproportionately in the original days of the epidemic). I suspect that females susceptibility to infection has been more heavily selected against due to the child thing.<= ------------------- Patti, Great question about ear infection differences as a function of gender. Will put it out for general reaction ... there ought to be lots of pediatric data Jim Brody From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" 17-JUN-1998 08:53:19.89 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "'James F. Brody'" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology (E-mail)" Subj: RE: ear, nose, and throat missed original post, so sorry if this is repetitive according to my pediatric ENT-specialist at dearoldstate and confirmed by a few other MD/anatomists, chronic ear infections are often caused by inappropriate draining of the eustachian tube, as it is often oriented in a downward direction from the throat to the ear among young children. as they age (i.e., mature), growth of the skull and related tissues is in a direction that reorients the eustachian in a downward direction from ear to throat (which allows for proper drainage). so .... if most girls mature/grow faster than most boys (at these ages), isn't it more plausible to assume that sex-differences are more related to morphological change than immune status??! curiouser and curiouser. guy > -----Original Message----- > From: James F. Brody [mailto:JBrody@compuserve.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 9:31 AM > To: INTERNET:phausman@digizen.net; HBES List Serve; Applied Ethology; > Paleopsych > Subject: ear, nose, and throat > > > Message text written by INTERNET:phausman@digizen.net > >To be accepted by the Nobel Committee, any Dr. Jim alternative > explanation for ADHD will have to account for the sex difference. > Do boys get more ear infections than girls in early life? > > Now that I've asked, let me note that I think this could be plausible, > theoretically at least. If boys mature less rapidly than > girls, perhaps > that applies to the immune system as well, making them more > susceptible > to infection early in life. As I recall, in adulthood men are more > susceptible to infection (I tripped across this while researching > explanations for AIDS affecting males disproportionately in > the original > days of the epidemic). I suspect that females susceptibility to > infection has been more heavily selected against due to the > child thing.< > > ------------------- > Patti, > Great question about ear infection differences as a function > of gender. > Will put it out for general reaction ... there ought to be lots of > pediatric data > Jim Brody > From: IN%"kckissan@wam.umd.edu" "Kelly Caithlin Kissane" 17-JUN-1998 08:57:00.36 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"phausman@digizen.net" "INTERNET:phausman@digizen.net", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" Subj: RE: ear, nose, and throat James, So many variables would have to be considered for this type of study. As I posted earlier, I was deaf between the ages of 3 - 6. The hearing loss was 80% in the right ear, 84% in the left. I blame this period of hearing loss on my current problems in distinguishing between certain musical tones, and my struggles to pronounce new words even when I hear them several times. I was a sickly child - I suffered most of the typical childhood diseases, including chicken pox, measles, pneumonia, tonsilitis (my tonsils were removed twice, at age 3 and age 6). I suffered from hayfever, a condition made worse by my inclination to play in the fields and creeks near my home. My deafness was caused by chronic ear infections - the infections were so numerous, scar tissue formed between the eardrum and the ossicles of the ear. At age 6, the scar tissue was removed surgically, and speech therapy was initiated to help me talk properly. [it was not until 1st grade that my hearing loss was discovered by the teacher - who could not understand why punishment was helping me pay better attention in class] But when I started college, my immune system kicked into high gear. I'm rarely sick, and to date never contracted strep despite being exposed to it numerous times (one doctor has told me that I am a strep carrier - I am asymptomatic, but still carry the bacteria). My sister was also a sickly child, and is not a healthy person now (she's 28). She is obese, and is a chain smoker. I am overweight, but I do not smoke and have an active lifestyle. I have heard from several sources that "smoker" homes have a higher incidence of child pneumonia and other illnesses. My parents were both heavy smokers. So in my opinion, we would have to hold several variables constant - age, smoker homes, stress levels (I grew up in an alcoholic home), climate (I grew up in Michigan, with cold, snowy winters - this meant that we were "shut-in" with tobacco smoke during the winter, where southern climates would mean more ventilation in the winter), etc., before we can make any type of gender comparison. My brother, by the way, was healthy and athletic until his teen years, when severe drug abuse destroyed his immune system. He is 32, and not healthy, catches viral infections easily. Kelly C. Kissane From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 17-JUN-1998 09:13:36.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sex immune system diffs A point to ponder: more women than men develop autoimmune disorders. Deb From: IN%"pjfaria@expo98.pt" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Paula_Jo=E3o_Faria_=28OCEAN=C1RIO=29?=" 17-JUN-1998 09:26:35.37 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Second EEA Meeting in Lisbon THE EUROPEAN ELASMOBRANCH ASSOCIATION (EEA) SCIENCE MEETING IN LISBON, SEPTEMBER 1998 CALL FOR PAPERS AND REGISTRATION Date: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 15 September 1998 Location: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Portuguese Marine Research Institute (IPIMAR) in Lisbon, Portugal Organization: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D the Portuguese Association for the Study and Conservation of = Elasmobranchs (APECE) apece@alfa.ist.utl.pt Registration and further inquiries: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Paula Jo=E3o Faria: pjfaria@expo98.pt From: IN%"cumpa@favanet.com.ar" "Martin Aureggi" 17-JUN-1998 19:08:54.47 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_lVFQBkMfCGTyxPA3RFORwA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear all: My name is Maria Eugenia Ordo=F1ez, I=B4m from Argentina. = I=B4m finishing the Secondary School and I=B4m interested in Domestic = Animal Applied Ethology.=20 Is there anyone who can help me with information about what career I = have to choose? Here in Argentine, Domestic Animal Ethology doesn=B4t = exist as a specialization in the Veterinary Medicine University. We only = have in the Biological Sciences University an specialization in Ethology = in general. Does anyone know how can I get training in this topic? Thanks in advance. MV Juan Mart=EDn Aureggi Cl=EDnica Veterinaria Cumpa Larrea 2649 (7600) Mar del Plata=20 TE/FAX (023)933007 --Boundary_(ID_lVFQBkMfCGTyxPA3RFORwA) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all: My name is Maria Eugenia=20 Ordoñez, I´m from Argentina. I´m finishing the = Secondary=20 School and I´m interested in Domestic Animal Applied Ethology.=20
Is there anyone who can help me with = information=20 about what career I have to choose? Here in Argentine, Domestic Animal = Ethology=20 doesn´t exist as a specialization in the Veterinary Medicine = University.=20 We only have in the Biological Sciences University an specialization in = Ethology=20 in general.
Does anyone = know how can I=20 get training in this topic?
Thanks in advance.
MV Juan Martín = Aureggi
Clínica=20 Veterinaria Cumpa
Larrea 2649 (7600) Mar del Plata
TE/FAX=20 (023)933007
--Boundary_(ID_lVFQBkMfCGTyxPA3RFORwA)-- From: IN%"noritatu@hotmail.com" "nora peskin" 17-JUN-1998 21:09:26.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: a question I´m a student of Biology at the university of Buenos Aires, Argentina, and I´m in third year. I want to specialize on animal behaviour, but I´m afraid I won´t find so many subjects related to this in Buenos Aires´ university. Anyway, I´m planning to finish my career here and eventually make a second specialization abroad. Ever since I can remember I´ve been interested in primates, and I would like to recieve any information you may have about their study in the world. Thankyou, Nora. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com" 18-JUN-1998 00:29:21.90 To: IN%"J.Goldberg@cranfield.ac.uk", IN%"ngreenbe@utk.edu" CC: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" Subj: RE: prejudices In a message dated 98-06-17 03:02:26 EDT, J.Goldberg@cranfield.ac.uk writes: << I've seen a couple of similar things in linguistics about claims that had not reach the publics attention. Once an accepted paper was withdrawn from publication by its author (Geoffrey K. Pullum) because of a comment that a begining graduate student (Caroline Coleman) made pointing out a flaw. He could have waited before investigating (which involved reading an unpublished dissertation which Caroline may be been the only person in North America to be aware of at the time.) But he actually had the paper withdrawn. The disseration challenged an acted factoid about the passive construction in Achenese which Pullum was providing a theory for. >> Jeffrey--This is doubly admirable because of the huge amount grad students contribute to the work published under the name of their "mentors," and the extent to which in all honesty those papers actually written by grad students for those above them on the hierarchical ladder should *always* be published under the grad student's name, perhaps with the name of the mentor included to: 1) recognize any contribution or guidance he or she has given; 2) to aid the student in getting a piece of sound or original work past the sniffy sorts who peer-review papers and are shown by statistics to turn down those written by people whose names they don't know and hence disdain. (I'm referring to the various studies in which published papers by major name investigators were resubmitted under names "no one had ever heard of" and were rejected peremporily. A classic case of chimp group perception, sometimes known as monkey see monkey do combined with the mammalian tendency to shower attention on the leader and disdain or abuse subordinates.) It's nice to hear that not all of those of us who are supposed to be expert in the evolutionary origins of behavior still act like animals. Howard P.S. Neil Greenberg's work indicates strongly that selective attention is gated by elements of the reptilian brain--the striatum--which are strongly affected by the hormones of hierarchy. It is precisely this kind of gated or selective attention which probably produces "attention structures," the hierarchical perceptual towers in which all subordinates keep their eyes on the alpha and kick around the gammas to compensate for their hormonal subjugation. The decisions of peer-review committees seem to be dominated by these primordial gating mechanisms. P.P.S. Since the incident you cited makes excellent material for the final chapter of the book I'm laboring over, could you do me a favor and give me any bibliographic references you can? ---------- Howard Bloom (founder: International Paleopsychology Project; member: New York Academy of Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, American Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and Evolution Society, European Sociobiological Society; board member: Epic of Evolution Society) International Paleopsychology Project 705 President Street Brooklyn, NY 11215 phone 718 622 2278 fax 718 398 2551 e-mail howard@paleopsych.org for two chapters from The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History, see www.bookworld.com/lucifer From: IN%"pjfaria@expo98.pt" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Paula_Jo=E3o_Faria_=28OCEAN=C1RIO=29?=" 18-JUN-1998 03:05:32.28 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Questions I'm a Bio-anthropologist and I currently work with the new Lisbon = Oceanarium for Expo 98. I'll be doing my PhD in Ethology, in Israel. I'm skipping = the Masters because my tutors/counsellors says I don't really need it and I = do feel I can cope without it even if it means lots of extra hard work and = even more anguish for not having followed the usual route. The anguish bit I = can feel already, so I'd like to know if there's anyone out there who has = been through the same. I'm particularly interested in cognition, aggression = and dominance relationships so I'd appreciate tips as far as papers and = people I should talk to go. Also, does anyone know of any other list dealing primarily with cetaceans/dolphins? Finally, having joined this list = has been a blast and I'm learning a lot about what goes on in this part of = the academic world and, most interestingly, how you go on about it. I don't really participate activelly because I still feel quite omega and am = still trying to process it - but the seeds are there. Thank you very much.=20 Johnny (Paula-Jo=E3o Faria) From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 18-JUN-1998 12:12:11.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Experimental design Reply to message from kckissan@wam.umd.edu of Mon, 15 Jun > > > Also, nothing existed unless it passed a stat test. > The universe viewed through RA Fisher and Guilford or Ghiselli. > > > This factor is still chiseled in marble among biologists. Nothing is >pertinent unless a stat test has been run. Not even my molecular trees >have meaning without stats. > >Kelly C. Kissane Certainly avoids dealing with a lot of real stuff doesn't it? -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 18-JUN-1998 13:30:30.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Free Will: A Psychological Adaptation Reply to message from JBrody@compuserve.com of Mon, 15 Jun > >Western civilization is filled with oppositional, competitive people; >indeed, that temperament may have been essential to its creation. (snip) There should be little surprise= > >in considering Free Will as a candidate for status as a psychological >adaptation, that the survival benefits of belief in Free Will far outweig= >h >the apathy and hopelessness that may accompany other, more fatalistic >beliefs. > (snip) > There are likely several >modules that work as an integrated unit, as defined by Barkley (1997). > >To the extent that Free Will has properties of a psychological adaptation= >, >then telling someone that they don't have it is equivalent to instructing= > a >teenaged male not to think of women. Likewise, we might expect Free Will= > >to support other psychological adaptations, perhaps those same adaptation= >s >that are most valued by determined people. Free Will, per "common sense= >" >likely becomes the largest consideration in matters of personal movement,= > >acquisition of resources, and choice of a mate. It would also be a facto= >r >in hierarchic disputes and negotiations. Free Will denotes an ultimate >sort of power, that of taking action without restraint from the forces th= >at >glue the rest of nature together. > > I identify. I really enjoy the concept of Free-Will-Power and the independence it offers me, and the chance to get really full-of-myself from time to time. However, in my more objective moments, given my own genetic imperative, my own levels of neurotransmitters, and my own personal experiences, I wonder if in any given moment of decision making if I could possibly make any different decision (no matter how momentous or inconsequential) than the one that I did or will. That is, given all of the myriad inputs to a decision, including temperature, humidity, level of hunger, level of testosterone, etc.; is it possible to exercise Free Will at any time? Certainly, a moment later or earlier, I might make a different decision, but even those are predetermined by the variables at those moments. Or am I misunderstanding the basic concept of Free Will? -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"martin@biolo.bg.fcen.uba.ar" 18-JUN-1998 15:35:06.62 To: IN%"cumpa@favanet.com.ar" "Martin Aureggi" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Introduction Hola Maria: Tu perocupacion es bastante complicada de resolver... Deberias averiguar bien, pues en Veter. hay una catedra de etologia! Por otro lado, en Biologia (UBA) te dan las herramientas necesarias para poder encarar cualquier estudio de comportamiento, ya sea en sus aspectos fisiologicos como ecologicos/evolutivos. En la Univ. de La Plata hay una especializacion en Comportam. Animal. Tambien hay muchos cursos de postgrado que podes hacer para especializarte en esos aspectos. Tal vez te interese encarar esos temas desde el punto de vista de un psicologo, por lo que una facultad de psicologia podria ser tu futuro. Siempre apareceran las pasantias. Podras tomar cursos de perfeccionamiento luego de graduarte. Hay miles de oportunidades para especializarte, pero lo mas importante es formarse en algo orientado y generalizado. Al fin y al cabo, las anteojeras son para los caballos !!! Mucha Suerte, -------------------------------------------------------- Lic. Martin R. Alvarez Lab. de Ecologia de Poblaciones Depto de Cs. Biologicas - FCEyN - UBA Ciudad Universitaria, Pab. 2, 4to. p, Lab. 104 (1428) Buenos Aires, Argentina Te: (54-1)- 782-0566 Fax: (54-1)- 782-0620 E-mail: martin@bg.fcen.uba.ar Administrador de la SAREM-L Enviar el siguiente mensaje a majordomo@ccc.uba.ar - para subscribirse: subscribe sarem (su-e-mail) - para retirarse: unsubscribe sarem (su-e-mail) Si quiere enviar un mensaje a la lista: sarem@ccc.uba.ar =========================================================== From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 18-JUN-1998 16:36:31.85 To: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" "D.B. Cameron, DVM", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" CC: Subj: RE: Free Will: A Psychological Adaptation Message text written by D.B. Cameron, DVM >am I misunderstanding the basic concept of Free Will? < I have my own "sense" of Free Will but I also repeat the identical social= errors despite "knowing" the adaptive strategies. I think the real nub o= f "Free Will" is that we don't usually sense the boundaries to our initiatives. I also mind read rhesus macaca mulatta to have Free Will, at least in the= ir arrogant, manic opinions. From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 18-JUN-1998 16:37:57.71 To: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" "D.B. Cameron, DVM", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Experimental design Message text written by D.B. Cameron, DVM >Certainly avoids dealing with a lot of real stuff doesn't it? < It also becomes a handy tool to befuddle people with a different set of psych adaptations, and thus a different reality, than our own. Jim Brody From: IN%"noritatu@hotmail.com" "nora peskin" 18-JUN-1998 21:24:32.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: GRACIAS MARTIN! Hola, soy Nora, y queria agradecerte por haberte tomado la molestia de darme la informacion que buscaba. Pensar que tenia la respuesta tan cerca mio, solo unos pisos arriba, en la facultad a la que acudo todos los dias del año...Es bueno saber que hay gente como vos! Me interesaria saber, eso si tenes tiempo y ganas de escribirme, a que te dedicas, y porque decis que en un principio querias dedicarte al estudio del comportamiento, que paso? Bueno, solo eso. Nuevamente Gracias !! Nora Peskin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"kats@missingpet.org" "Kat Albrecht" 18-JUN-1998 22:37:05.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Lost Pet Behavior I am a lurker..would have spent more time lurking but your intro told me to introduce myself asap, so here goes. I'm a police officer who used to work my search dogs (bloodhounds and weimeraner) to search for criminals, missing persons, evidence and human decomp (bone, teeth, blood, tissue, fluids, etc.). Last year I trained one of my dogs to track missing pets. I have now organized a national non-profit (National Center For Missing Pets) where we plan to train and certify Missing Pet Investigators to conduct investigations on missing pets. Investigators will use the same techniques used in law enforcement to investigate missing person cases. These techniques include use of the Incident Command System, search dogs, trained volunteers, mass distribution of information, forensic entomology to determine time of death, forensic hair comparision to make a positive identification and the development of a "profile" based upon "lost pet behavior" (this is why I'm visiting your list). I have already conducted some of my own research on lost dogs, cats and most recently I'm collecting data on lost ferrets. We are interested in studying lost pet behavior in different species and in various breeds to determine a profile that investigators can use when searching for that type of pet. I already know that indoor cats that escape outdoors will almost always be found within a 2 house radius, hiding under something, and will show extreme fear and may not come to their owner. Ferrets, on the other hand, I am finding will be found usually within one block and are so friendly they will scratch on ANYONE's front door to get inside. Thus most likely Investigators will know that when searching for an indoor cat that has escaped outdoors, they will need to use a trained search dog (we prefer pointing breeds for cat searches..they freeze and wont chase if kitty bolts) to search under decks, porches and areas where the kitty will take cover but will not want to be found. They will probably need to trap the cat to recover it. On the other hand, ferrets will also be found within a one block radius, but they most often will be picked up by someone who found the friendly ferret. The Investigator would know to focus search efforts by interviewing neighbors in the area who may have found the pet or witnessed someone else take it home. Bringing in a search dog would not be the first priority on a ferret search. As you can see, our organization plans to focus on research, training and on developing a national training program for pet detectives. No longer will pet owners need to rely on just posting lost pet posters on telephone poles but they will have the option to hire a trained resource. We hope that PET-SAR (pet search and rescue) units will flourish. But first, we need funding and we need to research. I am looking for someone to help work on writing research grants for my organization and to help conduct our research. I live in Santa Cruz, CA and I prefer someone who lives in the San Francisco Bay area or within a few hour radius (anyone from any of the U.C. campuses out there??). I have my hands full with many other aspects of the organization (and I'm writing my autobiography because supposedly Hollywood wants to make a movie of why a cop would turn into a pet detective). If you know of someone who would be interested, please have them view our website (at www.missingpet.org) and then email me. By clicking on Research & Training, you will read more info about the research I was discussing. By clicking on our "Success Stories" you will read about some of the searches (for people, evidence and pets) that I have worked with my dogs. I am sorry if this topic is not appropriate for this list. It was the first list on what I thought was "animal behavior" and I hope someone can help me. I have some ideas on how we could study the "sixth senth navigational skills" in domestic pets, but I obviously need experienced people to help develop this part of my organization. Thanks for any help you can offer. Kat & Dogs Kathy "Kat" Albrecht Executive Director National Center For Missing Pets *Exciting Search & Rescue Stories *Tips on Finding Lost Pets *Forensic Applications To Missing Pet Investigations *Pet Search & Rescue *If You Own A Pet, Come Visit Us! http://www.missingpet.org From: IN%"steppe@ou.edu" "Steppe" 18-JUN-1998 23:18:18.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "animal behavior" CC: Subj: introduction Hello, I am new to this list. I am pursuing my undergratuate degree in zoology. I am particularily interested in domestic animal behavior. After working for some time in an animal shelter, I saw a lot of charming cats and dogs that had been dumped simply because of behavior problems. I'm interested in studying more indepth in this field to eventually work as a animal behavior consultant. Has anyone had any success in this sort of career? If so, do you have any advice you could offer me? Also, I'm very interested in scientific method. It seems that the scientific ideal is objectivity...that a reputable scientist doesn't let her own subjective views "taint" the scientific data. I take issue with this. Jane Goodall, who obviously does not adhere to the rigid scientific method, has nevertheless learned valuable information about chimpanzees that no one in that field has previously been able to elicit through their objective methods. Personally, I think that any scientist who believes he/she can be totally objective is fooling him/herself. Even scientists can't escape the fact that they are human. Human's percieve the world through a set of sensors that do not opperate in an exclusively objective manner. As quantum theory explains, be merely designing an experiment and trying to answer certain questions, you have already interfered in the system, which can no longer provide objective data. Wouldn't it make more sense to use subjectivity as a resource? To use it to gain information that might otherwise remain hidden? Jane Goodall used her subjective view of the chimps to allow her to view and interpret the significance of mother/offspring interactions. She even saw the value in Flo's mothering skills, which resulted in high-ranking adolescent chimps when they grew. Jane applied some of Flo's mothering techniques wih her own children and was pleased with the results. It seems to me that Jane learned more with this type of observation in a few years....what a traditional scientist may have taken decades to piece this vital information together, if at all. A traditional scientist might be interested in rank within chimp society. But because the scientist is unwilling to use any subjective material, he may entirely miss some very important and vital information. So, I ask, what, if any value, does objectivity have, especailly when we as humans are incapable of being totally objective....Couldn't we see our subjective qualities as usefull, appropriate tools to understand the world around us? ---steppe From: IN%"S.Chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk" "Sarah Chaplin" 19-JUN-1998 04:27:09.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Subjective scoring systems > Also, I'm very interested in scientific method. It seems that the > scientific ideal is objectivity...that a reputable scientist doesn't let > her own subjective views "taint" the scientific data. > Wouldn't it make more sense to use subjectivity as a resource? To use > it to gain information that might otherwise remain hidden? . . . because > the [traditional] scientist is unwilling to use any subjective material, > he may entirely miss some very important and vital information. > So, I ask, what, if any value, does objectivity have, especially when we > as humans are incapable of being totally objective....Couldn't we see > our subjective qualities as useful, appropriate tools to understand the > world around us? I have recently been using subjective scoring systems to score body condition, locomotion, cleanliness and hock and knee injury in dairy cows (alongside more objective measurements of weight, milk yield, behaviour, etc.). Scores can carry a lot more information than objective measures so I think you're right; they can be used to view the whole picture rather than fragments of it. For example, compare the amount of information in a single body condition score versus a single record of weight. I am by no means the first to use scoring systems so I would suggest that subjectivity is already being used in a scientific context. Perhaps the issue is not one of subjectivity versus objectivity but rather of rigourous scientific method. Of course, to meet that aim, scoring systems need to be standardised and validated to overcome drawbacks such as variation between different observers, within one observer, and over time. Just a few thoughts on a subject which I have begun to get quite involved in, although they don't answer your question about the value of objectivity. I would be interested to hear other people's opinions . . . Yours, Sarah Sarah Chaplin Dairy Health Unit SAC Veterinary Science Diviion Auchincruive AYR KA6 5AE Tel.01292 520318 Fax.01292 521069 Email.s.chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 19-JUN-1998 05:38:19.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Let sleeping dogs lie Dear Dog and Cat People How long do dogs and cats sleep? And is it fairly constant, or does it vary according to circumstances - principally, according to how much we interact with them? The reason I'm asking is that I guess most people interact with their pets for a very small proportion of the time. Incidentally, I'm sure the dog-and-cat-owners on this list are not a typical cross-section, so I would welcome your comments on dog-and-cat-owners-in-general and dogs-and-cats-in-general, not just on yourself and your own pet. I bet that many pets are ignored for 23h or so out of 24. Indeed, a fair proportion will be left alone for much of the time - in the house during the day, confined downstairs during the night. So I'm wondering how much of that time they're awake. And do they adapt by sleeping more, do they just rest, or do they spend the time doing other things? I suppose 'other things' may include stereotyped behaviour and also ripping up the furniture. Has anyone done 24h studies on house dog and cat behaviour? The effect of all this on dogs will obviously differ from that on cats. But then I tend to think of cats as being allowed free access to the house. I noted the following section in Kat Albrecht's mailing: > I already know that indoor cats that escape outdoors > will almost always be found within a 2 house radius... This implies that quite a lot of cats are kept permanently indoors. Does anyone know how many? Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 19-JUN-1998 08:35:40.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group", IN%"S.Chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk" "Sarah Chaplin" CC: Subj: RE: Subjective scoring systems I would be very interested to learn more about such systems. Where may I read them up please? Best wishes Chris rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ ---------- > From: Sarah Chaplin > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Subjective scoring systems > Date: 19 June 1998 12:26 > > > Also, I'm very interested in scientific method. It seems that the > > scientific ideal is objectivity...that a reputable scientist doesn't let > > her own subjective views "taint" the scientific data. > > > Wouldn't it make more sense to use subjectivity as a resource? To use > > it to gain information that might otherwise remain hidden? . . . because > > the [traditional] scientist is unwilling to use any subjective material, > > he may entirely miss some very important and vital information. > > > So, I ask, what, if any value, does objectivity have, especially when we > > as humans are incapable of being totally objective....Couldn't we see > > our subjective qualities as useful, appropriate tools to understand the > > world around us? > > I have recently been using subjective scoring systems to score body > condition, locomotion, cleanliness and hock and knee injury in dairy cows > (alongside more objective measurements of weight, milk yield, behaviour, > etc.). Scores can carry a lot more information than objective measures so > I think you're right; they can be used to view the whole picture rather than > fragments of it. For example, compare the amount of information in a > single body condition score versus a single record of weight. > > I am by no means the first to use scoring systems so I would suggest that > subjectivity is already being used in a scientific context. Perhaps the > issue is not one of subjectivity versus objectivity but rather of > rigourous scientific method. Of course, to meet that aim, scoring systems > need to be standardised and validated to overcome drawbacks such as > variation between different observers, within one observer, and over time. > > Just a few thoughts on a subject which I have begun to get quite involved > in, although they don't answer your question about the value of > objectivity. > > I would be interested to hear other people's opinions . . . > > Yours, > Sarah > > Sarah Chaplin > Dairy Health Unit > SAC Veterinary Science Diviion > Auchincruive > AYR KA6 5AE > Tel.01292 520318 > Fax.01292 521069 > Email.s.chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 19-JUN-1998 08:35:56.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group", IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" CC: Subj: RE: Let sleeping dogs lie I hav'nt had dogs since I retired so can't reliably give data on theier sleeping pattern. My two (indoor) adults (pedigree British Shorthair breeding females) seem to sleep on average about 17 hrs a day. This seems to have a relatively fixed timetable under normal circumstances if undisturbed. Between 1000 and 1200 and 1400 and 1600 they are almost invariably sleeping, or wanting to do so! While the owner may seek to interact with a sleeping cat, it is not normally appreciated, and the cat will find another sleeping place. Healthy, well socialised Dogs however will respond positively to human interaction at almost any time in my experience. I feel sure Dr Bradshaw and his team at Southampton have published work on this - I will try to locate the references. The sleep total is much less when "calling" or with kittens, more in the latter stages of pregnancy.When calling I would say they are considerably more active, spending perhaps another 2 hrs a day trying to find/attract a male. I have no idea what proportion of cats are kept indoors. I would think it will be fairly small. As to attention time by owners, with adults I leave it to the cats to request attention. However, during the socialisation window (age 4 to 7 weeks) I interact with kittens as often as possible when they are not sleeping. As I feed dry food ad. lib. they only request social attention, and never from hunger. Hope this is of interest Best wishes Chris rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ ---------- > From: Mike Appleby > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Let sleeping dogs lie > Date: 19 June 1998 13:37 > > Dear Dog and Cat People > > How long do dogs and cats sleep? And is it fairly constant, > or does it vary according to circumstances - principally, according > to how much we interact with them? > > The reason I'm asking is that I guess most people interact with their > pets for a very small proportion of the time. Incidentally, I'm sure > the dog-and-cat-owners on this list are not a typical cross-section, > so I would welcome your comments on dog-and-cat-owners-in-general > and dogs-and-cats-in-general, not just on yourself and your own pet. > I bet that many pets are ignored for 23h or so out of 24. Indeed, a > fair proportion will be left alone for much of the time - in the > house during the day, confined downstairs during the night. So I'm > wondering how much of that time they're awake. And do they adapt by > sleeping more, do they just rest, or do they spend the time doing > other things? I suppose 'other things' may include stereotyped > behaviour and also ripping up the furniture. Has anyone done 24h > studies on house dog and cat behaviour? > > The effect of all this on dogs will obviously differ from that on > cats. But then I tend to think of cats as being allowed free access > to the house. I noted the following section in Kat Albrecht's > mailing: > > I already know that indoor cats that escape outdoors > > will almost always be found within a 2 house radius... > > This implies that quite a lot of cats are kept permanently indoors. > Does anyone know how many? > > Mike > > Michael Appleby > > Dr M.C. Appleby > Director of Postgraduate Studies > Institute of Ecology and Resource Management > University of Edinburgh > Tel. +44 131 535 4098 > Fax. +44 131 667 2601 > Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk > or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 19-JUN-1998 08:49:44.27 To: IN%"S.Chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk" "Sarah Chaplin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Subjective scoring systems On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:26:57 +0000 Sarah Chaplin wrote: > I have recently been using subjective scoring systems to score body > condition, locomotion, cleanliness and hock and knee injury in dairy cows This is an example of the use of a _subjective_ score in an _objective_ manner. (I assume.) Use of subjective scores is a very common and acceptable tool in science and has been historically. Some years ago I suggested (World Animal Science Series; Ethology of Farm Animals, Elsevier, 1985) that there is a "silicon bias" in science - that data that have been filtered through layers of silicon are more valued than data that reach the retina without refraction. Intervening layers of silicon found in test tubes, microscopes, telescopes, one-way mirrors, and even silicon chips appear to give comfort to those scientists who fear facing directly the dreaded charge of "subjectivity." The Methods and Materials sections of manuscripts give much credit to cameras, telescopes, electronic data recording systems, and such phrases as "computer analyzed" data - all processes that apparently "sanitize" data as they pass through layers of silicon. In our methodology, some of us ethologists suffer from silicon deficiency relative to our colleagues in science - which possibly impacts the standing of our discipline. But neither silicon layers nor other devices built by humans, for that matter, ultimately assure that one has an objective, unbiased measurement of the variable in question. What one in science should attempt to avoid is the subjective assessment of experimental variables, regardless of whether the scoring system is objective or subjective. For example body weight (actually mass) would not be objectively measured if cows were treated subjectively with some fed before weighing and others not, age not treated as a covariate, etc. Ultimately, all science is relative only to human interpretation of phenomenon within the universe. In that sense all science is subjective and representative only of what the human brain is capable of understanding. A question that future generations may confront more directly than do we is whether the human brain is actually capable of building machines (computers) that are more capable of objective science than is the human brain itself. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 19-JUN-1998 10:04:18.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sheep dog calls Many thanks to all of you who gave me the information about sheep dog calls. For others interested, the work was done by Patricia B. McConnell, Dept. of Zoology, University of Wisconsin at Madison. Some of the more easily obtained references are: P. B. McConnell Acoustic Structure and Receiver Response in Canis Familiaris, Animal Behaviour 1990 Vol. 39, p 897-904 P. B. McConnell and J. R. Baylis. Interspecific communication in cooperative herding: acoustic and visual signals from human shepherds and herding dogs. Z. Tierpsychologie 1985 vol 67:302-328 Lessons from Animal Trainers: the effect of acoustic structure on an animal's response. In P. Bateson and P. Klopfer (Eds) Perspectives in Ethology, 1991, Vol. 9. Jeff Rushen ***************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108E, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada. J1M 1Z3 Ph: 1-(819)-5659174 ext 206 Fax: 1-(819)-5645507 Email: RUSHENJ@EM.AGR.CA ***************************************** From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 19-JUN-1998 10:21:24.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (Fwd) cats and dogs and sleep ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "caroline.channing" Importance: normal Priority: normal Subject: cats and dogs and sleep To: michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 15:54:13 +0100 I was interested to hear that sleep in cats and dogs is your latest thing! Here is my contribution. I have two dogs, one border collie (very active breed) and one collie cross. Both dogs will sleep for huge amounts of time when there is "nothing better" to do. in my experience sleep in dogs is not related to the need for rest. For example, for one year the collie cross accompanied me to work at bush stables where she would play energetically all day with the other dogs without the need for a nap or break. When entertainment is not available she will sleep. As to your question about cats - I have two house cats. I do not let them out because friends of mine have lost cats in road traffic accidents. The cats are active intermittently throughout the playing together. Good luck with your enquiries Caroline Channing Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 19-JUN-1998 10:26:37.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (Fwd) Re: Let sleeping dogs lie ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "Deborah McWilliams" Organization: Animal & Poultry Science To: Mike Appleby Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:51:54 EDT Subject: Re: Let sleeping dogs lie Priority: normal Hi Mike! Anecdotal stuff from my house (two cats and two turtles): 1) My cats have a sleep schedule that does not appear to change despite my schedule (I have had roommates so I also know what they do when I am not at home). They nap at approximately the same times and in the same locations. 2) What do you mean by interact with the pets? For example, I have play and grooming times, etc with the cats but they are also usually with me while I am doing things. For example, if I watch TV one is on my lap and one on the back of the chair. If I work at the computer, one is on the desk and one at my feet. If I read at the other desk, one or both (it is a very large desk) are sprawled across my reading material. If I am doing something, they usually are watching and follow me from room to room. 3) I moved from a 1 bedroom apt. to a 3 bedroom townhouse and back to a 1 bedroom apt. The cats were more active, but seemed to sleep as much (eg on the same sleep schedule), at the townhouse but both slimmed down and lost some weight. The townhouse had two sets of stairs and was street level so they had much to watch and they spent a lot of time running from window to window. 4) The turtles: they are in a large 4 ft x 4 ft tank so they are more limited in choices than the cats who are free to roam the house. I find the turtles are very tuned in to various zeitgerbers which range from light (very important), smell and my schedule. They do not seem to sleep (defined as eyes closed) unless they are basking or it is dark. (The cats are house cats - they are not allowed outdoors). Rough schedule: Both sleep at the same times (and if one awakes the other usually is not far behind - these cats have been together for six years but I got them as adults from separate sources). Approximate sleep times: 9:30 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. 2:00 p.m. to 3:30 p.m. 6:00 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. 2:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. (however, if I get up at 5:00 a.m. they do also - in other words, they rise when I do at this point in their day) How many hours? That's about 11 hours (+/-). Deb Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 19-JUN-1998 10:31:34.37 To: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Let sleeping dogs lie Jeff, The sleep-wake cycles of the dog have been studied by Adams & Johnson (1993). They found that dogs are rather light night-time sleepers with an average of 23 sleep-wake cycles over 8 hours (16 minutes sleeping-5 minutes awake). You might also find Klein & Uhde (1988) of some interest. Ref Adams GJ, Johnson KG (1993). Sleep-wake cycles and other night-time behaviours of the domestic dog. Appl Ani Beh Sci, 36:233-248. Klein E, Uhde TW (1988). 24-hour motor activity in genetically nervous and normal pointer dogs. Biol Psychiat, 23:523-527. ***** Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services Philadelphia, PA "Good training is disciplined play." --H. Hediger, The Psychology and Behaviour of Animals in Zoos and Circuses From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 19-JUN-1998 15:26:13.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" CC: Subj: More dog talk Dog talk - What fun! I would like to see a comparison of how many hours wild canines spend resting and sleeping (and how these cycles differ thru out the seasons) to augment this discussion. Any takers??? Here's my data to add to the soup: (I work at home - so dogs have every opportunity to take advantage of my activities) Vizla/Doberman female, 5 yrs. old: Sleeps/rests as much as she possibly can (21 hours per day) no matter how much activity is going on around her (up for meal and exercise time). >This breed is bred for hunting excursions, so it makes sense she wants to 'conserve' her energy when not 'working'< German Sheperd/Husky male, 1 1/2 yrs.: Just the opposite of vizla, he is awake approximately 14 hours a day. Too busy following me around, checking for intruders, soliciting play, greeting visitors, etc. to sleep. When he rests, it is always a very light sleep. When our bedtime rolls around (1 or 2 am), he happily collapses into a snoring heap after his long day of activities. >This breed is bred for service to humans, so makes sense his 'work' as guard dog, etc., would keep him busier as an at-home dog< It seems that the breed, age and circumstances of dogs' lives will greatly affect the data on this "research". Have fun! From: IN%"uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar" "Dr. Leopoldo Estol" 19-JUN-1998 17:41:17.71 To: IN%"martin@biolo.bg.fcen.uba.ar" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Introduction & veterinary ethology in Argentina This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_TTTMCqIj6tjYPRGpYiW7/Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I guess that in Argentina the aplied veterinary ethology is in the early = begining. As a subject, specific, I only now my chair, where I'm the = Professor: Animal welfare and ethology at our University.=20 I agree with the open possibility as a postgraduate field, but after = the veterinary degree not a human psicologic degree. Where are the other?=20 Profesor Leopoldo Estol, Medico Veterinario, Diplomado en Salud = Publica. Director, Carrera de Veterinaria, Universidad del Salvador.=20 Campus " N. S. del Pilar", C.C. 198, Pilar 1629, Provincia de Buenos Aires, ARGENTINA. Home phone (International + 54 1) 555 4580 & 552 1476 Office Fax. & Phone (International + 54 322) 31260 & 31261 & 31262 & = 31263 & 90503 & 26053 & 26057 E-mail: uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar=20 URL: http://www.salvador.edu.ar/uaf3-2.htm "The opinions expressed in this communication are my own, and do not = necessarily reflect those of my employer" "Las opiniones expresadas en esta comunicacion me pertenecen y no = reflejan necesariamente la opinion de la Universidad" -----Original Message----- From: martin@biolo.bg.fcen.uba.ar To: Martin Aureggi Cc: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Date: Jueves 18 de Junio de 1998 20:38 Subject: Re: Introduction =20 =20 Hola Maria: =20 Tu perocupacion es bastante complicada de resolver... Deberias = averiguar bien, pues en Veter. hay una catedra de etologia! Por otro lado, en = Biologia (UBA) te dan las herramientas necesarias para poder encarar = cualquier estudio de comportamiento, ya sea en sus aspectos fisiologicos como ecologicos/evolutivos. En la Univ. de La Plata hay una = especializacion en Comportam. Animal. Tambien hay muchos cursos de postgrado que podes = hacer para especializarte en esos aspectos. Tal vez te interese encarar = esos temas desde el punto de vista de un psicologo, por lo que una facultad de psicologia podria ser tu futuro. Siempre apareceran las pasantias. = Podras tomar cursos de perfeccionamiento luego de graduarte. Hay miles de oportunidades para especializarte, pero lo mas importante es = formarse en algo orientado y generalizado.=20 =20 =20 Al fin y al cabo, las anteojeras son para los caballos !!! =20 =20 Mucha Suerte, =20 -------------------------------------------------------- Lic. Martin R. Alvarez Lab. de Ecologia de Poblaciones Depto de Cs. Biologicas - FCEyN - UBA Ciudad Universitaria, Pab. 2, 4to. p, Lab. 104 (1428) Buenos Aires, Argentina =20 Te: (54-1)- 782-0566 Fax: (54-1)- 782-0620 =20 E-mail: martin@bg.fcen.uba.ar =20 Administrador de la SAREM-L Enviar el siguiente mensaje a majordomo@ccc.uba.ar - para subscribirse: subscribe sarem (su-e-mail) - para retirarse: unsubscribe sarem (su-e-mail) Si quiere enviar un mensaje a la lista: sarem@ccc.uba.ar = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 =20 --Boundary_(ID_TTTMCqIj6tjYPRGpYiW7/Q) Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
 
I=20 guess that in Argentina the aplied veterinary ethology is in the = early=20 begining.
As a = subject, specific,=20 I only now my chair, where I'm the Professor: Animal welfare and = ethology at=20 our University. 
I agree with the open possibility as a = postgraduate field,=20 but after the veterinary degree not a human psicologic=20 degree. 
Where are the other? 
Profesor = Leopoldo Estol,=20 Medico  Veterinario, Diplomado en Salud Publica.
Director, = Carrera=20 de Veterinaria, Universidad del Salvador.
Campus " N. S. = del=20 Pilar",
C.C. 198, Pilar 1629, Provincia de Buenos Aires,=20 ARGENTINA. 
Home phone (International + 54 = 1) 555 4580=20 & 552 1476
Office Fax. & Phone = (International + 54=20 322) 31260 & 31261 & 31262 & 31263 & 90503 & = 26053 &=20 26057
E-mail: uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar=20
URL:   http://www.salvador.edu.ar= /uaf3-2.htm
"The opinions expressed in = this=20 communication are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my = employer"
"Las opiniones expresadas en esta = comunicacion me=20 pertenecen y no reflejan necesariamente la opinion de la=20 Universidad" 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 martin@biolo.bg.fcen.uba.ar=20 <martin@biolo.bg.fcen.uba.ar>
To:=20 Martin Aureggi <cumpa@favanet.com.ar>
C= c:=20 Applied-ethology@sask.usas= k.ca=20 <Applied-ethology@sask.usas= k.ca>
Date:=20 Jueves 18 de Junio de 1998 20:38
Subject: Re:=20 Introduction

 
Hola Maria:

Tu = perocupacion es=20 bastante complicada de resolver... Deberias averiguar
bien, pues = en=20 Veter. hay una catedra de etologia! Por otro lado, en = Biologia
(UBA) te=20 dan las herramientas necesarias para poder encarar = cualquier
estudio de=20 comportamiento, ya sea en sus aspectos fisiologicos=20 como
ecologicos/evolutivos. En la Univ. de La Plata hay una=20 especializacion en
Comportam. Animal. Tambien hay muchos cursos = de=20 postgrado que podes hacer
para especializarte en esos aspectos. = Tal vez=20 te interese encarar esos temas
desde el punto de vista de un = psicologo,=20 por lo que una facultad de
psicologia podria ser tu futuro. = Siempre=20 apareceran las pasantias. Podras
tomar cursos de = perfeccionamiento luego=20 de graduarte. Hay miles de
oportunidades para especializarte, = pero lo mas=20 importante es formarse en
algo orientado y generalizado. =


Al=20 fin y al cabo, las anteojeras son para los caballos =20 !!!


Mucha=20 = Suerte,

--------------------------------------------------------Lic.=20 Martin R. Alvarez
Lab. de Ecologia de Poblaciones
Depto de Cs. = Biologicas - FCEyN - UBA
Ciudad Universitaria, Pab. 2, 4to. p, = Lab.=20 104
(1428) Buenos Aires, Argentina

Te: (54-1)- = 782-0566
Fax:=20 (54-1)- 782-0620

E-mail: martin@bg.fcen.uba.ar

Ad= ministrador=20 de la SAREM-L
Enviar el siguiente mensaje a majordomo@ccc.uba.ar
- = para=20 subscribirse: subscribe sarem (su-e-mail)
- para=20 retirarse:    unsubscribe sarem (su-e-mail)
Si = quiere=20 enviar un mensaje a la lista: sarem@ccc.uba.ar
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D

--Boundary_(ID_TTTMCqIj6tjYPRGpYiW7/Q)-- From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 19-JUN-1998 17:47:53.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: More dog talk What an interesting thread! This never occurred to me before, but what happens if a dog suffers sleep deprivation? How does this affect behavior? If different breeds require different amounts and patterns of sleep, then it would be feasible that certain dogs may suffer disruptions of their normal sleep patterns due to the lifestyles and schedules of their masters. I think of the poor Weim that I have here that suffers such acute seperation anxiety. If I move, he moves. He is compelled to keep me in his sight all the time. If I am out of his sight he stays hysterical and anxious until I am within his sight again. If it is true that a hunting breed would, by nature, normally conserve energy and sleep alot unless on the hunt, then this poor dog is really suffering! That might further contribute to his behavior problems. What an interesting thought that different breeds of dogs may require different sleep patterns. Hmmmmmmm. Kathy Hughes From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 20-JUN-1998 02:36:23.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: IN%"apbc4_um@ppro.ftech.net" "APBC Forum (E-mail)" Subj: Let sleeping dogs lie - lest they die! Dear Mike, Stress and sleep deprivation are of interest to the veterinary practitioner and I would think, the husbandryman in any field of applied ethology. A historical review by Bentivoglio M, Grassi-Zucconi G entitled - The pioneering experimental studies on sleep deprivation- has appeared the Journal 'Sleep' 1997 Jul; 20 (7) pp 570-76. The authors report (form the Institute of Anatomy and Histology, University of Verona, Italy) that:- The experimental studies on sleep deprivation were initiated by the Russian physician and scientist, Marie de Manaceine, who studied sleep-deprived puppies kept in constant activity. She reported in 1894 that the complete absence of sleep was fatal in a few days, pointing out that the most severe lesions occurred in the brain. In 1898, the Italian physiologists Lamberto Daddi and Giulio Tarozzi also kept dogs awake by walking them; the animals died after 9-17 days, and their survival was unrelated to food consumption. In the histological study performed by Daddi, degenerative alterations, mainly represented by chromatolytic changes, were observed in neurons of the spinal ganglia, Purkinje cells of the cerebellum, and neurons of the frontal cortex. Daddi ascribed these changes to a state of autointoxication of the brain during insomnia. In 1898, the psychiatrist Cesare Agostini, interested in the psychic phenomena caused by prolonged insomnia in humans, sleep deprived dogs by keeping them in a metallic cage in order to avoid fatigue. The dogs survived about 2 weeks, and degenerative changes were observed in their brains. In these experimental paradigms, the effect of sleep loss was confounded by motor exhaustion and/or intense sensory stimulation. In spite of the absence of adequate controls, the pioneering studies performed at the end of the 19th century represented the first experimental attempts to relate sleep with neural centers and suggested that sleep is a vital function and that the brain may be affected by insomnia. ******** I vividly recall work by some Spanish military medical men in the mid 60s, who sleep deprived dogs by severe noise exposure. These (healthy) dogs died in about 4 days! The need for recovery sleep was brought home to me in 1970 when I treated a dog which had suffered excrutiating pain from a neglected proctitis for about 5 days. The relief of pain by injections of Isaverin and generous insertions of Sheriproct suppositories seemed to permit a sleep of 'comatose' profundity which alarmed my staff and I to the point of attempting to arouse the patient! No amount of noise or pinching could elicit a response. He slept for 10 hours and awoke bright and happy. I am convinced that the severely pruritic dog (with staphylococcal dermatitis) requires inordinately long courses of antibiotics for no other reason than a marked depression of immune responses, which are restored by the lengthy period of rest and recuperation that the antibiotics permit. Experiments to show depression of immunity by reduction of sleep tend, by reason of humanity and attempts to eliminate variables, to fail. I think this is because we should regard sleep as part of the means to combat and repair the effects of severe stress. Thyroid and corticosteroid actions are also involved. The chronically stressed dog in kennels suffering the withrawal from a very marked attachment to the missing owner, will suffer wieght loss and diarhoea. If it is also sleep deprived by constant alarms from the other boarders the mischief may be compounded. If draught oxen are driven too fast and for too long they will founder with respiratory ailments and die. The nursing mother awakening to suckle a healthy baby will be rewarded emotionally and physiologically. A mother awoken in acute anxiety by a sick infant will suffer torment expressly forbidden by the Geneva Convention. (I think I will take a nap. After all it is my weekend on Night Call!) Robin P.S Here's another note:- Experientia 1986 Sep 15;42(9):987-991 Long-term motor activity recording of dogs and the effect of sleep deprivation. Tobler I, Sigg H Motor activity of laboratory dogs was recorded for several weeks with an ambulatory monitoring device. The effect of 24 h sleep deprivation (SD) on motor activity during recovery was investigated. A clear rest-activity rhythm was established. The dogs exhibited a similar mean daily rest-activity pattern: rest occurred mainly in the dark; the animals were most active after light onset; activity increased during the last two dark hours; a rest period was found at noon and reduced activity during afternoon hours. There was a marked difference in total activity between individual dogs. Activity patterns varied as a function of the day of the week; this may have been a reflection of variations in the level of human activities in the laboratory. There was a significant reduction of motor activity during the 24-h period following SD. This was particularly evident in the first 6 h of the light period immediately following the deprivation. In addition, there was a significant increase in the number of episodes with activity less than or equal to 5 counts during recovery. The study confirms the possibility of measuring motor activity to assess compensatory mechanisms during recovery after SD. Sleep regulation, therefore, does not necessarily need to be exclusively examined by the invasive technique of EEG registration. From: IN%"lynfra@globalnet.co.uk" "Lynn Crook" 20-JUN-1998 04:43:06.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: More dog ramblings To add to the personal dog sleep data----my 8 are all different----regardless of breed. They all have about 20 mins running morning and evening plus free access to a large garden for an hour or so ---more if weather is good. The younger ones are trained for 10mins a day or so. It appears that if there is something of interest to them they will be awake and raring to go and if not sleep is an option, if they are given an amount of excersise and a bit of mental activity they will take that option---if they are not they will wreck the house, trash the kitchen, and make a lot of noise!!! The majority of pet owners don't have the time or inclination to do enough with their dogs (speaking as a trainer!), so they create a problem. An hour in the morning before work and an hour when they get home just before going of out for the evening is not adequate "awake time" for most dogs! Depression causes some people to sleep-does it do the same in dogs? is that why some people get away with treating their dog like an ornament? lynn From: IN%"uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar" "Dr. Leopoldo Estol" 20-JUN-1998 16:42:07.49 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" CC: Subj: Journey to USA This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_yXY8aM6LYCmIdn6jUMnUGQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear pals of Applied Ethology It=92s been some years ago since I=92be worked trying to build a = veterinary teaching hospital in our University. Now this project became = a true: we're going to build a well done Veterinary Teaching Hospital, = with mainly specialization in equine but inclusion of the other species = of large and small animals. Because we want to search in the next month important references in the = USA, we=92re planning a trip to different university hospitals.=20 My schedule was staying at Ohio State University between the next 6 and = 10 of July; between 13 and 17 visiting Purdue, Virginia Tech & Michigan = State and between 20 & 24, Washington State and Florida (Gainesville). I'll be delighted to meet in person some net pals and discus face to = face the possibility to develop an international valuable academic = relationship in our fields of common interest.=20 Please, tell me how I can make the arrangements in advance and in situ = contacts. Thank you very much in advance for the attention to my request. Profesor Leopoldo Estol, Medico Veterinario, Diplomado en Salud = Publica. Director, Carrera de Veterinaria, Universidad del Salvador.=20 Campus " N. S. del Pilar", C.C. 198, Pilar 1629, Provincia de Buenos Aires, ARGENTINA.=20 Home phone (International + 54 1) 555 4580 & 552 1476 Office Fax. & Phone (International + 54 322) 31260 & 31261 & 31262 & = 31263 & 90503 & 26053 & 26057 E-mail: uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar=20 URL: http://www.salvador.edu.ar/uaf3-2.htm "The opinions expressed in this communication are my own, and do not = necessarily reflect those of my employer" "Las opiniones expresadas en esta comunicacion me pertenecen y no = reflejan necesariamente la opinion de la Universidad"=20 --Boundary_(ID_yXY8aM6LYCmIdn6jUMnUGQ) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Dear pals of Applied = Ethology

It’s been some years ago since I’be = worked trying to build a veterinary teaching hospital in our = University.=20 Now this project became a true: we're going to build a well done = Veterinary=20 Teaching Hospital, with mainly specialization in equine but inclusion of = the=20 other species of large and small animals.

Because we want to search in the next month important references in = the USA,=20 we’re planning a trip to different university hospitals.

My schedule was staying at Ohio State University = between the=20 next 6 and 10 of July; between 13 and 17 visiting Purdue, Virginia Tech=20 &  Michigan State and between 20 & 24, Washington State and = Florida=20 (Gainesville).

I'll be delighted to meet in person some net = pals and=20 discus face to face the possibility to develop  an international = valuable=20 academic relationship in our fields of common interest.  

Please, tell me how I can make the arrangements in advance and in = situ=20 contacts.

Thank you very much in = advance=20 for the attention to my request.

Profesor = Leopoldo Estol,=20 Medico  Veterinario, Diplomado en Salud Publica.
Director, = Carrera de=20 Veterinaria, Universidad del Salvador.
Campus " N. S. del=20 Pilar",
C.C. 198, Pilar 1629, Provincia de Buenos Aires,=20 ARGENTINA. 

Home phone (International + 54 1) 555 = 4580 &=20 552 1476

Office Fax. & Phone (International = + 54 322)=20 31260 & 31261 & 31262 & 31263 & 90503 & 26053 &=20 26057

E-mail: uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar =

URL:   http://www.salvador.edu.ar= /uaf3-2.htm

"The opinions expressed in this = communication=20 are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my=20 employer"
"Las opiniones expresadas en esta comunicacion me = pertenecen y no reflejan necesariamente la opinion de la=20 Universidad" 

--Boundary_(ID_yXY8aM6LYCmIdn6jUMnUGQ)-- From: IN%"nepom@ibiw.yaroslavl.su" "Nepomnyashchikh V." 21-JUN-1998 08:24:29.91 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Animal navigation conference Anyone who wish to take part in and/or help to organize the following conference please get in touch with me: V.A. Nepomnyashchikh =============================================================== Conference Announcement and Call for Abstracts "ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR: MECHANISMS OF ORIENTATION AND NAVIGATION" Borok, September, 1999 (Tentative date) The Conference is organized by Institutes of Russian Academy of Sciences: Institute for Biology of Inland Waters (Borok), Severtsev Institute of Ecology and Evolution, and Institute of Physics of Earth. The aim of the Conference is to present and discuss experimental and theoretical results of studies on searching for food, mates etc., migration and homing. We would like to bring together the experimental behaviour scientists, field researchers, physiologists and model makers who deal with various animal taxa as well as different sensory modalities. The main themes include but are not restricted to: 1. Laboratory and field studies of behavioural algorithms the animals use in the course of visual, chemical, electromagnetic, acoustic, and other orientation; 2. Peripheral and central neurophysiological processes involved; 3. Computer simulation of orientation and underlying physiological mechanisms (processes). Participants should submit one page abstracts (to be published before the Conference opening). Authors should make every effort to analyze mechanisms involved in orientation and navigation, rather than present purely descriptive results. ====================================================================== The reasons why we would like to held the conference in Borok: 1. Because of financial problems, researchers from former Soviet Union are rarely able to attend international conferences on animal behaviour and related topics (eg. design of autonomous agents). The conference held in Russia should help them to get in touch with researchers from abroad. We expect funding from Russian Science Foundation; in this case, it might be possible to waive out registration fees for Russian residents. 2. The cost of stay in Russia is much lower than in Europe, especially in a small town. For this reason, regular registration fee for participants from abroad will not exceeds $200 ($50 for young scientists). Hotel daily prices are in the range between $8 to $40. so we believe that more younger researchers from Europe will be able to take part in the conference. 3. In case if we bring together sufficient number of researchers from European countries in Organizing Committee, then we will be eligible to submit a proposal for support to an international fund. In this case it might be possible to publish full papers in conference proceedings and/or make registration fees very low. 4. Borok is a nice small town in a rural wood area at the bank of Volga river, exactly at the point where Volga came into Rybinsk reservoire. It was build for the staff of Institute for Biology of Inland Waters. Several old towns (founded in 12th century) are located within two hours' car trip. The tentative dates of the conference are typically the time of "Indian" summer and we plan steamer trip around the reservoire and/or bus trip to an old town. =============================================================== Valentin A. Nepomnyashchikh, Ph.D. Institute for Biology of Inland Waters, Russian Academy of Sciences 152 742 Borok, Yaroslavskaja obl., Russia Phone/Fax: +7 0852 25 38 45 E-mail : nepom@ibiw.yaroslavl.su Home page: http://www.ibiw.yaroslavl.su/eng/nepomne.htm =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 22-JUN-1998 05:27:57.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (Fwd) position announcement ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:52:22 -0400 To: mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk, Tpolo1@aol.com From: "F. Ben Mather" Subject: position announcement >X-Sender: natzke@dps.ufl.edu >Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:15:25 -0400 >To: Faculty@dps.ufl.edu >From: Roger P Natzke >Subject: position announcement >Sender: faculty-request@dps.ufl.edu >Resent-Message-Id: >Resent-From: faculty@dps.ufl.edu >X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'LEAVE' to > >>X-Sender: jarmstro@www.ansc.purdue.edu >>Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:05:09 -0500 >>Reply-To: ANSADM >>Sender: ANSADM >>From: Jeff Armstrong >>Subject: position announcement >>To: ANSADM@LIST.MSU.EDU >> >>Please circulate the position description to possible candidates in your >>departments. >> >>Thank you, >> >>Jeff >> >>Animal Behavior and Well-Being Position >>Department of Animal Sciences, Purdue University >> >>POSITION: Assistant Professor - Education and Research >> >>RESPONSIBILITIES: A tenure-track position is available in the Department of >>Animal Sciences at Purdue University with emphasis in Animal Behavior and >>Well-Being. A solid understanding of domestic animal behavior and >management, >>current issues in animal welfare policy and laws with a state, national and >>international perspective is required. The ability to interface animal >>well-being research with the evolving animal management recommendations in >>conjunction with the newly formed Food Animal Productivity and Well-Being >>Center, USDA-ARS Livestock Behavior Research Unit and School of Veterinary >>Medicine is essential. The incumbent will teach courses in animal behavior, >>animal welfare and contemporary issues and will be able to conduct research >>and >>train graduate students (20-40% of effort). Individual will be expected to >>establish an active relationship with extension specialists, leaders in >animal >>agriculture and others in providing information related to animal welfare and >>animal well-being issues. >> >>QUALIFICATIONS: Qualifications include a Ph.D. degree in animal sciences or >>equivalent credentials in the field of animal behavior/well-being. >Successful >>experience in teaching, extension and research is preferred. Evidence of >>collaborative efforts and ability to secure extramural funding is also >>desired. Strong communication skills and ability to interact with students, >>media, government agencies, livestock industry, commodity groups and general >>public are essential. >>APPLICATION DEADLINE: Screening of applications will begin August 15, 1998, >>and >>continue until a suitable candidate is found. >>SALARY: Commensurate with qualifications. >> >>APPLICATION PROCEDURE: Please send a current curriculum vitae, a brief >>narrative summary outlining experience, goals, and qualifications for this >>position, and names, addresses and phone numbers of three persons who may be >>contacted for letters of recommendation, if requested by the Search >>Committee. >> >>SEND MATERIALS TO: Jeffrey D. Armstrong, HeadDepartment of Animal Sciences >>Purdue UniversityLilly Hall 1151West Lafayette, IN 47907-1151For more >>information: phone 765-494-4808Fax 765-494-9346E-mail >>Jeff_Armstrong@ansc.purdue.edu >>Additional information regarding the Department of Animal Sciences and >>USDA-ARS >>Livestock Behavior Research Unit can be accessed at >>http://www.ansc.purdue.edu and >>www.ansc.purdue.edu/USDA-LBRU/, >>respectively. >> >>Purdue University is an equal access/equal opportunity university >> >> >>Jeffrey D. Armstrong >>Head, Department of Animal Sciences >>Purdue University >>Lilly Hall 1151 >>West Lafayette, IN 47907-1151 >>765-494-4808 >>fax 765-494-9346 >>Jeff_Armstrong@ansc.purdue.edu >> >>www.ansc.purdue.edu >> > NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: mather@dps.ufl.edu F. Ben Mather Poultry Extension Specialist Dairy & Poultry Sciences Dept. University of Florida P.O. Box 110920 Gainesville, FL 32611-0920 USA voice: 352/392-5594 fax: 352/392-5595 department website: http://dps.ufl.edu From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 22-JUN-1998 09:41:20.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Let sleeping dogs lie Reply to message from mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk of Fri, 19 Jun > >Dear Dog and Cat People > >How long do dogs and cats sleep? And is it fairly constant, >or does it vary according to circumstances - principally, according >to how much we interact with them? > >The reason I'm asking is that I guess most people interact with their >pets for a very small proportion of the time. Incidentally, I'm sure >the dog-and-cat-owners on this list are not a typical cross-section, >so I would welcome your comments on dog-and-cat-owners-in-general >and dogs-and-cats-in-general, not just on yourself and your own pet. >I bet that many pets are ignored for 23h or so out of 24. (snip) I can offer no objective information, but after being a small animal practitioner and behaviorist for over 40 years in mid-America (that suggests a local generally conservative, non-faddish, relatively level headed clientel), I am absulutely sure that your estimate of owner/pet interactive time is vastly understated. Just feeding, watering, and exercising takes that much time for most. Also, pets tend to be in family situations which multiplies the pet's interaction with someone by quite a bit. Even solo owners tend to invest large amounts of time in their pets as these pets are often substitutes for the family that these people lack. Cat owners probably spend less time interacting with their pets. Often that is the basic reason they like cats better than dogs. -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"shale@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu" 22-JUN-1998 09:49:59.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Subjective scoring systems Ray Stricklin wrote: [material deleted] > A question that future generations may confront more directly than do we is > whether the human brain is actually capable of building machines (computers) > that are more capable of objective science than is the human brain itself. From the little I know of fuzzy logic, computers can be programmed to yield reliably reproducible results based on data that can't be easily quantified owing to the ambiguity of language or to unpredictably variable input. Subjective scoring systems and fuzzy logic seem to have similar objectives, but the latter is silicon based of course. Still, the pioneers of fuzzy logic were criticized in scientific circles for not being "objective." From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 22-JUN-1998 10:15:50.32 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: More dog talk Kathy I can't find the reprint right now, but a paper was published showing that changes in shift of police dogs did not aversely affect their behavior or working performance. Sorry I can't give you the reference. Andrew At 07:47 PM 6/19/98 -0400, you wrote: >What an interesting thread! This never occurred to me before, but what >happens if a dog suffers sleep deprivation? How does this affect behavior? >If different breeds require different amounts and patterns of sleep, then it >would be feasible that certain dogs may suffer disruptions of their normal >sleep patterns due to the lifestyles and schedules of their masters. > >I think of the poor Weim that I have here that suffers such acute seperation >anxiety. If I move, he moves. He is compelled to keep me in his sight all >the time. If I am out of his sight he stays hysterical and anxious until I am >within his sight again. If it is true that a hunting breed would, by nature, >normally conserve energy and sleep alot unless on the hunt, then this poor dog >is really suffering! That might further contribute to his behavior problems. > >What an interesting thought that different breeds of dogs may require >different sleep patterns. Hmmmmmmm. > >Kathy Hughes > > From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 22-JUN-1998 10:19:43.43 To: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Let sleeping dogs lie Dear Dr. Cameron: Re: your statement (below): Are you suggesting that cats need less interaction? Can do better than dogs with less interaction? Deb > Cat owners probably spend less time interacting with their pets. > Often that is the basic reason they like cats better than dogs. > > From: IN%"GFlannigan@infonet.tufts.edu" 22-JUN-1998 11:53:47.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: More dog talk The paper on shift work is: Adams and Jonstone. 1994. Sleep, work and the effects of shift work in drug detector dogs, Canis familiaris. Applied Animal Behavior Science 41:155-126. Gerry Flannigan From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 22-JUN-1998 16:33:20.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group", IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: Subj: RE: Let sleeping dogs lie I'll be interested to see Dr. Cameron's response, but superficially it would appear likely to be the case given that Cats are not naturally "social" animals, unlike the Dog with it's pack living ancestors.Best wishes Chris rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ > Dear Dr. Cameron: > Re: your statement (below): Are you suggesting that cats >need less interaction? Can do better than dogs with less interaction? >Deb > > Cat owners probably spend less time interacting with their pets. > >Often that is the basic reason they like cats better than dogs. > > From: IN%"craigmin@the-rowan.albatross.co.nz" "Craig and Min" 22-JUN-1998 21:01:58.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Mourning I have just been looking at costs and benefits, and optimality models, I am aware not all behaviour can be explained using optimality models, but I was wondering, what benefit if any is there to a mother who carries around or stay's with and protects an obviously long dead baby, as if they are mourning it's loss. I have heard of this happening in Elephants and Dolphins. Surely it can't be that in all cases the mother isn't aware of the death. Please excuse me if I am missing some important point here, I really haven't looked into this in any depth, I was just wondering. MIN ------------------- Merinda Sutherland (Min) Email: craigmin@albatross.co.nz WWW: http://www.albatross.co.nz/~craigmin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Knowledge is like a garden; if it is not cultivated, it cannot be harvested. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 23-JUN-1998 01:48:21.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (Fwd) Let Sleeping dogs... ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:56:42 -0400 To: mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk From: Nancy Prince Subject: Let Sleeping dogs... Hi Mike, I have had cats all my (40-odd year) life and currently have three. When I was a child our cats were outdoors (but came in and out freely through a cat door), but they died at an alarming rate from being hit by cars---we lived on a busy, steep hill in town. The three I have now are 100% indoors. I think whether a cat is kept indoors or outdoors probably depends on where the owner lives...out in the country or in a busy city. I'm not sure what you mean by interacting with the pets. Am I interacting with my pet when it is asleep on me? It certainly notices when I move, and occasionally in its sleep it will stretch or change position. If I shift position it will shift corrspondingly to fit itself to the new contours of my lap. When I am in bed, all three cats sleep partly on me, so is there a subtle yet definite interaction going on all night? Likewise, when a cat is asleep (or seems asleep---you can't always tell!) and I am petting it, does it feel it? From the cat's point of view, am I interacting with it? All three cats may be sound asleep in three different parts of a large room, but when I get up and go into another room, they will all end up in the new room with me inside of 15 minutes, though I didn't call them or entice them in any way. This makes me wonder if there isn't some kind of very subtle interaction (or maybe just awareness on the part of the cat) constantly occurring from proximinity. Or maybe they just hear me and decide to move because they like to be with me? I guess I spend maybe three hours a day doing the kinds of things that could be called, without a doubt, interacting with them. When they were young and more active I spent more time, maybe an hour more a day. Note that the type of interaction has changed with their age. I used to "play" a lot---drag a string, etc. Now that they are 14 years old I mainly pet them (with still some string-dragging stuff). I go along with what one of the other respondents said, that he played with his cats when the cats requested attention. I interact with the cats when the cats are handy, and I have come to believe that they make themselves handy when they want interaction. I have often wondered what the cats do when I'm away from the house all day. It would be interesting to know what you learn about that. Hope this helps--- Nancy Prince nlp@star.org Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"irene@irene.msk.ru" "Sergey Budaev" 23-JUN-1998 03:36:18.13 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Subjective scoring systems Something may be said against such subjective scoring systems. Assume that human cognitive abilities, as a product of natural selection, are composed of multiple domain-specifis Darwinian algorithms. Then, we may have certain cognitive structures that are embedded into our brains in a way unconscipus for us. (From the physiological viewpoint, neural networks in our brain have particular neuron pools and receptive fields which are activated by specific patterns e.g. in the visual cortex, some--to only vertical components of the image). Such intrinsically "instinctive" cognitive mechanisms are certainly involved in such activities as social exchange, mate choice etc... This perhaps may explain why it is impossible to completely remove anthropomorphism from the scientific reasonong (e.g. when we think of casuality in some scientific things, we in fact could use those Darwinian algotirhms that subserve casuality concepts in social relationships). Such subjectivism and anthropomorphism may be of course useful in some cases (e.g. Hebb in the 40th reported that when human observers naturally thought of animal behaviour in anthropomorphic and emotional terms--like "the monkey is angry"-- they succeed better in predicting future behaviour of the observed subject than if they tried to think in terms of only the overt behaviour). But it is not necessarily o be so in other cases. Even worse, assuming that all scientific knowledge is basically deductive and no pure induction is possible, even objective scientific procedures may go "through the prism" of the human brain! An example is the personality structure. It is known that personality in humans consists of the Big Five factors. Certainly, it would be adaptive for them (us) to have some dedicated cognitive mechanisms to quickly assess personality of others (everyone seems to be able to do this very well even without sophicticated personality inventories, and peer ratings are widely used in personality research). That is, the Big Five structure may be intrinsically embedded into our brains. Then, there is no wonder that people are able to find similar personality factors in other animals (e.g. see the paper by Mather & Anderson in J. Comp Psychol, about personality in octopuses and Budaev, in J. Comp. Psychol for similar personality factors in a fish, and a forthcoming paper by S. Gosling in JCP, there is a large itterature...)! But this, of course, may be a too pessimistic view. Sincerely, Sergey Budaev A.N. Severtsov Institute of Ecology and Evolution, Russian Academy of Sciences, Leninsky prospect 33, Moscow 117071, Russia From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 23-JUN-1998 05:28:27.89 To: IN%"irene@irene.msk.ru" "Sergey Budaev", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" CC: Subj: RE: Subjective scoring systems Message text written by Sergey Budaev >Something may be said against such subjective scoring systems. Assume that human cognitive abilities, as a product of natural selection,= are composed of multiple domain-specifis Darwinian algorithms. Then, we m= ay have certain cognitive structures that are embedded into our brains in a way unconscipus for us. (From the physiological viewpoint, neural networks in= our brain have particular neuron pools and receptive fields which are activated by specific patterns e.g. in the visual cortex, some--to only vertical components of the image). = Such intrinsically "instinctive" cognitive mechanisms are certainly involved in such activities as social exchange, mate choice etc... This perhaps ma= y explain why it is impossible to completely remove anthropomorphism from t= he scientific reasonong (e.g. when we think of casuality in some scientific things, we in fact could use those Darwinian algotirhms that subserve casuality concepts in social relationships). Such subjectivism and anthropomorphism may be of course useful in some cases (e.g. Hebb in the 40th reported that when human observers naturally thought of animal behaviour in anthropomorphic and emotional terms--like "the monkey is angry"-- they succeed better in predicting future behaviour of the observ= ed subject than if they tried to think in terms of only the overt behaviour)= =2E But it is not necessarily o be so in other cases. Even worse, assuming th= at all scientific knowledge is basically deductive and no pure induction is possible, even objective scientific procedures may go "through the prism= " of the human brain! = An example is the personality structure. It is known that personality in humans consists of the Big Five factors. Certainly, it would be adaptive for them (us) to have some dedicated cognitive mechanisms to quickly assess personality of others (everyone seems to be able to do this very well eve= n without sophicticated personality inventories, and peer ratings are widel= y used in personality research). That is, the Big Five structure may be intrinsically embedded into our brains. Then, there is no wonder that people are able to find similar personality factors in other animals (e.g. see t= he paper by Mather & Anderson in J. Comp Psychol, about personality in octopuses and Budaev, in J. Comp. Psychol for similar personality factors= in a fish, and a forthcoming paper by S. Gosling in JCP, there is a large itterature...)! But this, of course, may be a too pessimistic view. Sincerely, Sergey Budaev A.N. Severtsov Institute of Ecology and Evolution, Russian Academy of Sciences, Leninsky prospect 33, Moscow 117071, Russia < ------------------------------- Sergei, Nice comments. Fascinated about the "Big 5 and Fish"! Factor analysis may be one tool wherein we try to evade our adapted perceptual systems. Even here, we "lump" the outcomes by assigning labe= ls that are meaningful to us. Human minds are doing the classifying and will have to use human domains for a little while longer. However, human domains -- to the extent they instantiate more fundamental processes and rules -- may be relatively durable and even have corresponding modules in other minds, whether felin= e or Martian. For example, my mate selection module finds Utta Pippig extremely attractive; Emmy (my female Siamese cat) would find another creature extremely attractive. However, both of us have mechanisms for identifying a reproductive asset. I would like to post your comments on my Evolutionary Psychology Forum at= www.behavior.net/mhn/bolforum/message/27 unless you have some objections.= Nice to meet you ... Jim Brody "Healing the Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution" July 20-24, 1998, 20th Cape Cod Institute w/ Pearce/Gardner/Robert Wright/Fentress/Dylan Evans/Robin Walker From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 23-JUN-1998 05:45:22.62 To: IN%"fedeli@email.msn.com" "Chris Fedeli" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve" Subj: RE: Darwinism and Nihilism (was "Emotions") Message text written by "Chris Fedeli" >Thanks Jim, that was fun to read. I have to admit I like the general perspective, but I don't find it useful to describe nature as "moral". I= don't believe it is, at least not in the sense that we use it.< I appreciate your kind remarks about the essay on morality as an instantiation of more general principles. And "naturally" comment most about the one difference we have!!! Your emotional reaction is perhaps one more "adaptation" that maintains cooperation or animosity within our social groups ... the adaptation itse= lf is a functional equivalent to chemical or gravitational attachments ... n= o attachments, no continuity through time. No emotions may allow more transient, higher turnover attachments similar to those often (but not always, some appear quite durable) found on the 'net. Actually, I'm starting to notice more that we often use one layer of language for ourselves and another for everything else. So nature is not= moral to most of us, religion and science have different standards of evidence, people don't own each other but own other living forms ... the list may be very long and itself a reflection of survival or continuity mechanisms somewhat, but not always, peculiar to hominids. gawd ... all this before breakfast! Jim Brody From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 23-JUN-1998 07:16:25.96 To: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: cat/dog social animals Perhaps cats are social animals but not in the obvious, needy way of dogs and perhaps it is a terminology problem. Only dogs are pack animals? Some cat species hunt in packs and remain in social groups. These social groups include things like cooperative rearing and mechanisms like ostracism for individuals that violate the group norm. Deb From: IN%"uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar" "Dr. Leopoldo Estol" 23-JUN-1998 07:38:23.57 To: IN%"Shetts@aol.com" CC: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" Subj: RE: Introduction & veterinary ethology in Argentina Dear Susan Thanks for your information. In Argentina, all procedures on animals must be doing by or under a direct supervision of a certificate veterinarian. Nor physicians or other related professions are allowed to act. I agree with the interdiscipline and the complex thinking, but it's a legal, not a scientific matter. We call that "professional incumbency" or "veterinary legal duties" By myself, I learn a lot about behavior from the sources you tell me, from psychology, biology, zoology, wildlife biology and/or animal sciences. Nobody in Argentina, and I guess in Sud-America, can give a Certification to an Applied Animal Behaviorist like you. Also my University give to me a academic certification when appointed me as Professor at the Chair on Animal Welfare, based in my Curriculum Vitae only, without any Board certification, and it is also an academic and legal matter. Profesor Leopoldo Estol, Medico Veterinario, Diplomado en Salud Publica. Director, Carrera de Veterinaria, Universidad del Salvador. Campus " N. S. del Pilar", C.C. 198, Pilar 1629, Provincia de Buenos Aires, ARGENTINA. Home phone (International + 54 1) 555 4580 & 552 1476 Office Fax. & Phone (International + 54 322) 31260 & 31261 & 31262 & 31263 & 90503 & 26053 & 26057 E-mail: uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar URL: http://www.salvador.edu.ar/uaf3-2.htm "The opinions expressed in this communication are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer" "Las opiniones expresadas en esta comunicacion me pertenecen y no reflejan necesariamente la opinion de la Universidad" -----Original Message----- From: Shetts@aol.com To: uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar Date: Lunes 22 de Junio de 1998 16:20 Subject: Re: Introduction & veterinary ethology in Argentina >In a message dated 98-06-19 19:53:09 EDT, you write: > ><< I agree with the open possibility as a postgraduate field, but after the >veterinary degree not a human psicologic degree. > Where are the other? >> >In the United States, courses in animal behavior are offered from a variety of >departments, depending on the university. Animal behavior and animal learning >courses are housed in the departments of psychology, biology, zoology, >wildlife biology and/or animal sciences. Post-graduate training in behavior >can be obtained in any of these disciplines. The Animal Behavior Society, >which is the largest organization in North America ( it also has members from >other countries) dedicated to the study of animal behavior, has an annual >conference in the summer at a different university each year, and has a >certification program for people with post-graduate degress in animal behavior >to become certified applied animal behaviorists. The ABSs website is >www.cisab.indiana.edu/animal_behavior.html. Go there for more information >Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D. >Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist >Littleton, Colorado, USA > From: IN%"k.plaxton@elsevier.nl" "Ken Plaxton" 23-JUN-1998 08:16:31.40 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Applied Animal Behaviour Science Dear All, I would to contribute a piece of information to the list which I think = should of interest, and hopefully value, to many of you. A new *Frontpage* has recently been added to the Applied Animal Behaviour = Science Homepage on the www (URL : www.elsevier.nl/locate/applanim). = This new page provides the following additional options: 1. The Table of Contents (TOC) of all issues published since April = 1995 (from Vol. 43/1) with a direct link to the Abstract of each article. 2. Search facilities for all issued published since April 1995. This = will also (eventually) offer the option of searching other related = Elsevier titles (not yet operational). 3. Author and Subject Indexes covering the same issues as mentioned = above. 4. A list of related Elsevier journals with a direct hypertext link = to the same. 5. A direct link to the ISAE Website. I hope that this is useful. Comments are welcome. Ken Plaxton Associate Publisher ******************************** Animal/Veterinary Sciences Section Elsevier Science B.V. P.O. Box 181 1000 AD Amsterdam The Netherlands Tel: 31 20 485 3332 Fax: 31 20 485 3325 E-mail: k.plaxton=40elsevier.nl ******************************** From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 23-JUN-1998 08:23:25.94 To: IN%"craigmin@the-rowan.albatross.co.nz" "Craig and Min" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Mourning On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Craig and Min wrote: > I have just been looking at costs and benefits, and optimality models, I am > aware not all behaviour can be explained using optimality models, but I > was wondering, what benefit if any is there to a mother who carries around or > stay's with and protects an obviously long dead baby, as if they are mourning > it's loss. I have heard of this happening in Elephants and Dolphins. > Surely it can't be that in all cases the mother isn't aware of the death. > Please excuse me if I am missing some important point here, I really haven't > looked into this in any depth, I was just wondering. > > MIN > Dear Min, Like you, I can not help but wonder what feelings and thoughts a mother must experience with the loss of her offspring. From a human perspective we attribute our grief, following a loss, to our higher mental faculties, our emotions and our sense of reason. However, the expression of a similar behaviour in animals appears unsettling because we can not easily explain the behaviour in terms of some evolutionary function from a cost/benefit perspective. I suggest you try to explain mourning in humans in terms of a cost and benefit perspective and see how far you get. If you find in humans the behaviour is an incidental cost which accompanies emotions and higher thoughts, then one possible solution to your dilemma maybe to grant elephants, primates and other animal species, which appear to mourn a dead offspring, with also having higher mental faculties and emotions that enable them to grieve. It is a good question you ask, but I do not see any easy answer. Sincerely, Joe Stookey ------------------- Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 23-JUN-1998 09:05:18.05 To: IN%"irene@irene.msk.ru" "Sergey Budaev" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Subjective scoring systems On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:35:47 +0400 (MSD) Sergey Budaev wrote: In this discussion, I think there is some _subjectivity_ in our criteria for determining what is meant by "subjective scoring systems." I was thinking of situations such as the assignment of a score for dystocia difficulty using a scoring system from 1 to 5 with one being easy parturition and 5 being very difficult - maybe even surgical delivery. These types of scores are used and reported routinely by researchers. And these scores are in fact subjective. One attempts to be objective when assigning the scores, but "easy" vs. "very difficult" delivery are subjective. This is not to say that it is inappropriate to use such scores. Similarly, it is not inappropriate to use such scoring systems when studying behavior. However, in the study of behavior one may be dealing with both a subjective trait as well as a subjective scoring system and this does present some problems. The early attraction of the discipline of "Behaviorism" was its attempt to avoid this problem by eliminating the study of subjective traits. Basically, in the establishment of Behaviorism, what Watson said was - "You can't measure what is inside the black box. You can only measure what the black box does, i.e., its behavior." Hence, the term Behaviorism. While Behaviorism did advance the study of behavior, it was ultimately too restrictive and the early ethologists made much of such a limited view of behavior. > Something may be said against such subjective scoring systems. On the basis of what I have said above, I don't believe that the use of subjective scoring systems is inappropriate. (I note again that the study of subjective traits presents some especially difficult problems for science, and I believe that it is not so much the scoring system(s) but rather the traits themselves where it is hard for researchers to find consensus.) > > Assume that human cognitive abilities, as a product of natural selection, > are composed of multiple domain-specifis Darwinian algorithms. Then, we may > have certain cognitive structures that are embedded into our brains in a way > unconscipus for us. (From the physiological viewpoint, neural networks in > our brain have particular neuron pools and receptive fields which are > activated by specific patterns e.g. in the visual cortex, some--to only > vertical components of the image). The above sounds like a description of a Fixed Action Pattern, or more specifically a Modal Action Pattern, but with some modern terms used. It is also a description which I consider appropriate. > This perhaps may > explain why it is impossible to completely remove anthropomorphism from the > scientific reasonong... There may be an even more basic reason why we can not remove anthropomorphism from science. Anthropomorphism if used properly is only a reference to the assigning of human form to none-human entities. In modern times the term has been expanded to include the ascribing of human behavior to animals. From the viewpoint of science, there is a big problem here. We humans are animals and indeed share much form and behavior in common with other animals! > Even worse, assuming that > all scientific knowledge is basically deductive and no pure induction is > possible, even objective scientific procedures may go "through the prism" > of the human brain! > I would go even further. All science _must_ "go through the prism of the human brain." In fact the only science that exists is that of the human brain. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 23-JUN-1998 09:58:08.06 To: IN%"craigmin@the-rowan.albatross.co.nz", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Mourning Hi! Keeping a dead infant for a period of time is usually seen in social species. Social species are thought to have more complex cognitive processes. It would appear, therefore, that perhaps "mourning" the loss of an infant may serve a purpose to facilitate cognitive and/or emotional acceptance of the event. Deb From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 23-JUN-1998 10:08:16.64 To: IN%"craigmin@the-rowan.albatross.co.nz" "Craig and Min" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Mourning On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:06:53 +0000 Craig and Min wrote: > I have just been looking at costs and benefits, and optimality models, I am > aware not all behaviour can be explained using optimality models, but I > was wondering, what benefit if any is there to a mother who carries around or > stay's with and protects an obviously long dead baby, as if they are mourning > it's loss. I think that the question should be turned around. What would be the cost to a mother who walked away from a sleeping offspring because it was not moving? It is obviously important that the evolved system error strongly on the side of making certain the offspring is dead before the mother walks away. Loosing an offspring in many species represents an enormous loss (to the fitness of the individual). I would think that it is to be expected that an evolving system would move toward producing individuals capable of negative feelings (maybe one could even say feelings of "punishment" or guilt) associated with a loss of such enormous importance. I don't see why an adaptive system would _not_ punish "mistakes" in behavior (mismothering) through pain (mourning) any less than it punishes mistakes such as getting burned from a fire results through pain. I have heard it stated that most first-calf ungulates do not survive in nature and that the first offspring is basically a learning experience for the mother. I would think that having resultant feelings of pain (grieving/mourning or whatever you wish to call it) associated with the loss of an offspring would greatly facilitate learning and thus be highly adaptive. An argument could be made that feelings of pain (mourning and/or guilt?) in association with the loss of an offspring would be highly adaptive even in situations we humans would consider to be irrational. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 23-JUN-1998 11:51:08.01 To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" "W. Ray Stricklin" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"craigmin@the-rowan.albatross.co.nz" "Craig and Min", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Mourning On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, W. Ray Stricklin wrote: > I think that the question should be turned around. What would be the > cost to a mother who walked away from a sleeping offspring because it > was not moving? It is obviously important that the evolved system error > strongly on the side of making certain the offspring is dead before the > mother walks away. >=20 Dear Ray, It would seem however, that such a system could evolve to detect death without a strong emotional component. In fact, recognizing death is easy (at least among humans) it is the realization that it has occurred which stirs up such a strong emotional response. Related to the orginal question - why would non-human animals mourn the death or engage in behaviours that appear to mimic the emotions that humans experience? Or even more important, how could they experience the emotion without experiencing a thought process which preceeded the emotion? > Loosing an offspring in many species represents an enormous loss (to the > fitness of the individual). I would think that it is to be expected that > an evolving system would move toward producing individuals capable of > negative feelings (maybe one could even say feelings of "punishment" or > guilt) associated with a loss of such enormous importance. I don't see > why an adaptive system would _not_ punish "mistakes" in behavior > (mismothering) through pain (mourning) any less than it punishes > mistakes such as getting burned from a fire results through pain.=20 > =20 > I have heard it stated that most first-calf ungulates do not survive in > nature and that the first offspring is basically a learning experience > for the mother. I would think that having resultant feelings of pain > (grieving/mourning or whatever you wish to call it) associated with the > loss of an offspring would greatly facilitate learning and thus be > highly adaptive.=20 >=20 > An argument could be made that feelings of pain (mourning and/or guilt?) = in=20 > association with the loss of an offspring would be highly adaptive even i= n=20 > situations we humans would consider to be irrational. >=20 > ---------------------- > W. Ray Stricklin > University of Maryland >=20 The idea that mourning has within it an element or feeling of guilt, and/or the potential for learning an important lesson is indeed an interesting hypothesis and puts a nice sociobiological spin on an intense human emotion. In support, you are probably aware that guilt is often expressed or felt by humans following the loss of a child or loved one. There is also the expression that the death of a loved one is more difficult if the individual was murdered instead of accidentally killed or died from poor health. Why should the situations surrounding the death influence the level of grief? That relatives of murdered victims have no lesson to learn or guilt to experience could this be interferring with an evolutionary program and normal function of mourning as you suggest and make for a stronger emotion? I have also read or heard somewhere that the parent who grieves the most for the loss of their child is more often the parent who would claim the child most resembles them. Again you can see the sociobiological connection. At the end of the day however, you can not dismiss the cognitive process that is needed to trip the emotional response. Much more fascinating to me than all the sociobiological spin that is placed on human emotions is the potential for a shared emotional similarity between humans and non-human animals surrounding the loss of a loved one. This one particular behaviour - of apparent mourning a death, more than any other behaviour expressed by animals, makes me ponder the cognitive process of animals. What else to they know and think about?=20 Joe PS I figure if we keep this discussion going long enough, eventually it will lead to questions about feelings experienced by farm animals following forced separation and weaning. Eventually we could talk about cows, pigs, sheep, etc. and not even have to mention dogs or cats! :) -------------------- Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 =82Canada From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 23-JUN-1998 11:51:14.59 To: IN%"craigmin@the-rowan.albatross.co.nz" "Craig and Min" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Mourning On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:06:53 +0000 Craig and Min wrote: > ... but I > was wondering, what benefit if any is there to a mother who carries around or > stay's with and protects an obviously long dead baby, as if they are mourning > it's loss. I was just talking with a colleague about this question (and about my earlier message) over lunch and he made an interesting point. He suggested that in some instances females in the presence of their young are so highly motivated toward maternal behavior that it may be hard for them to suddenly switch off the care-giving, etc. - that in some cases of infant death, the mother may require a couple of days for her system to adjust hormonally, etc. away from maternal behavior. Thus, from what my colleague was proposing, the mother attending a dead infant could be viewed as simply continuing a behavioral response that was triggered some days earlier. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 23-JUN-1998 13:25:26.17 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"craigmin@the-rowan.albatross.co.nz" "Craig and Min", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Mourning On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:44:55 -0600 (CST) joseph.stookey@usask.ca wrote: > In fact, recognizing death is > easy (at least among humans) it is the realization that it has occurred > which stirs up such a strong emotional response.=20 I am sure that death is always easily recognized. I remember a pig that wa= s=20 accidentially knocked unconcious. I thought it was dead and placed it on t= op=20 of a fence post. My younger brother, before picking it up, stated it was n= ot=20 dead and then proceded to resucitate it. I also remember him "saving" seve= ral=20 pigs at birth that I had labeled as dead. (Another reason that I was not c= ut=20 out to be a veterinarian.) There are also tales of humans being placed in= =20 caskets, and then almost buried before they were recognized as being alive = -=20 even stories of humans being raised from the dead! Granted all of these=20 anedotecol ramblings are examples of exceptional situations, but I am not s= ure=20 that even we humans can always easily recognize death in its earliest stage= s. > Related to the orginal > question - why would non-human animals mourn the death or engage in > behaviours that appear to mimic the emotions that humans experience? Or > even more important, how could they experience the emotion without > experiencing a thought process which preceeded the emotion? I believe that it is possible for an individual (non-human or human) to=20 experience an emotion that is triggered independent of cognition. Let me f= or=20 the sake of argument use the information from my last message - that female= s=20 may be hormonally motivated to exhibit maternal behavior and once the offsp= ring=20 is dead, she experiences powerful motivation without being able to engage i= n=20 the behavior. This sounds to me to be a situation very much like other=20 arguments about behavior, motivation, and welfare where it is argued that t= he=20 animal experiences "suffering" resultant from motivation but in the absence= of=20 being able to engage in a given behavior. This argument about welfare of= =20 confined animals is ususally presented independent of a need for cognition = as a=20 trigger (but with a growing interest among researchers in the role that=20 cognition may play). Therefore, I don't believe that cognition would be=20 necessary for the mother to experience "suffering" in association with the = loss=20 of an offspring. > The idea that mourning has within it an element or feeling of guilt, > and/or the potential for learning an important lesson is indeed an > interesting hypothesis and puts a nice sociobiological spin on an intense > human emotion. In support, you are probably aware that guilt is often > expressed or felt by humans following the loss of a child or loved one. > There is also the expression that the death of a loved one is more > difficult if the individual was murdered instead of accidentally killed o= r > died from poor health. Why should the situations surrounding the death > influence the level of grief? That relatives of murdered victims have no > lesson to learn or guilt to experience could this be interferring with an > evolutionary program and normal function of mourning as you suggest and > make for a stronger emotion?=20 As a parent, I have felt the sudden rush and overwhelming "terror" of being= on=20 a boat marina and then turning to check on my toddler and not seeing her be= hind=20 me. (And thankfully then feeling the total bathing sense of relief, followe= d=20 shortly by a sense of self-recrinination and foolishness for not having see= n=20 that she took an available ladder to a different level.) =20 There are many situations where human emotions don't seem to a rational bas= is. =20 The feelings of guilt of humans who survive deadly airline crashes, soilder= s=20 who survive when their comrades are killed, etc. These feelings seem to be= =20 widespread across human culture raising the question of a genetic contribut= ion. I think having the "genes" associated with grieving/mourning/guilt would me= an=20 they could be triggered independent of the actual loss - just the fear of l= oss.=20 The triggering of the fear of the loss (perceived loss of offspring/unexpec= ted=20 separation) could itself play a major role in shaping parental behavior=20 (learning) independent of any role associated with actual mourning/grieving= =20 when a loss actually occurs. > I have also read or heard somewhere that the > parent who grieves the most for the loss of their child is more often the > parent who would claim the child most resembles them. Again you can see > the sociobiological connection. =20 Whether you call it sociobiology, behavioral ecology or simply ethology, I= =20 think that there is in fact a genetic role in emotions/feelings or whatever= . =20 In the case of the so-called mourning behavior that has been discussed, I t= hink=20 it not co-incidental that all the species mentioned (elephants, dolphins,= =20 chimpanzees, etc.) are strongly K-selection strategists. As I said earlier= , it=20 would seem logical that a greater sense of pain (grieving) would be associa= ted=20 with a loss (offspring) of proportionally greater magnitude. Losses among= =20 r-selection strategists would individually be less likely to bring about me= ntal=20 pain because genes associated with such pain would not be as adaptative. > At the end of the day however, you can > not dismiss the cognitive process that is needed to trip the emotional > response. =20 I am not convinced that a cognitive is necessary for such behavior to be=20 exhibited. However, just because it is not necessary does not, of course, = mean=20 that it is not present. > Much more fascinating to me than all the sociobiological spin > that is placed on human emotions is the potential for a shared emotional > similarity between humans and non-human animals surrounding the loss of a > loved one. This one particular behaviour - of apparent mourning a death, > more than any other behaviour expressed by animals, makes me ponder the > cognitive process of animals. What else to they know and think about?=20 >=20 > Joe >=20 > PS I figure if we keep this discussion going long enough, eventually it > will lead to questions about feelings experienced by farm animals > following forced separation and weaning. Eventually we could talk about > cows, pigs, sheep, etc. and not even have to mention dogs or cats! :) >=20 > -------------------- > Joseph M. Stookey > Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > University of Saskatchewan > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > S7N 5B4 =82Canada >=20 ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 23-JUN-1998 13:31:04.50 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"craigmin@the-rowan.albatross.co.nz" "Craig and Min", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Mourning On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:44:55 -0600 (CST) joseph.stookey@usask.ca wrote: > > PS I figure if we keep this discussion going long enough, eventually it > will lead to questions about feelings experienced by farm animals > following forced separation and weaning. Eventually we could talk about > cows, pigs, sheep, etc. and not even have to mention dogs or cats! :) Dear Joe and others, I accidentally sent my last message before I had completed and cleaned it up. I was in a bit too much of a hurry, trying to finish it and move on to something else. I hope that it does make some sense. Joe, I did mean to comment in my last message that I also think that more discussion about cows, pigs, sheep, etc. (the core species of applied ethology) would be appropriate topics of discussion. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 23-JUN-1998 14:33:21.56 To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"craigmin@the-rowan.albatross.co.nz" "Craig and Min", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Mourning (revision) Dear All, Again, my apologies for first sending this message prematurely. But I see errors in the original version sent that unless corrected make the message contradictory and mistakes that are a bit embarrassing to me. Thus, below is a corrected version. Ray On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:15:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) "W. Ray Stricklin" wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:44:55 -0600 (CST) joseph.stookey@usask.ca wrote: > > > In fact, recognizing death is > > easy (at least among humans) it is the realization that it has occurred > > which stirs up such a strong emotional response. > > I am _not_ sure that death is always easily recognized. I remember a pig that was > accidentally knocked unconscious. I thought it was dead and placed it on top > of a fence post. My younger brother, before picking it up, stated it was not > dead and then proceeded to resuscitate it. I also remember him "saving" several > pigs at birth that I had labeled as dead. (Another reason that I was not cut > out to be a veterinarian.) There are also tales of humans being placed in > caskets, and then almost buried before they were recognized as being alive - > even stories of humans being raised from the dead! Granted all of these > anecdotal ramblings are examples of exceptional situations, but I am not sure > that even we humans can always easily recognize death immediately. > > > > Related to the orginal > > question - why would non-human animals mourn the death or engage in > > behaviours that appear to mimic the emotions that humans experience? Or > > even more important, how could they experience the emotion without > > experiencing a thought process which preceeded the emotion? > > I believe that it is possible for an individual (non-human or human) to > experience an emotion that is triggered independent of cognition. Let me for > the sake of argument use the information from my last message - that females > may be hormonally motivated to exhibit maternal behavior and once the offspring > is dead, she continues to experience powerful motivation without being able to engage in maternal > behavior. This sounds to me to be a situation very much like other > arguments about behavior, motivation, and welfare where it is argued that the > animal experiences "suffering" resultant from motivation but in the absence of > being able to perform the behavior. The argument about suffering of > confined animals is usually presented independent of a need for cognition as a > trigger (but with a growing interest among researchers in the role that > cognition may play). Therefore, I don't believe that it is necessary to argue that cognition is > necessary in order for the mother to experience "suffering" in association with the loss > of an offspring. > > > > The idea that mourning has within it an element or feeling of guilt, > > and/or the potential for learning an important lesson is indeed an > > interesting hypothesis and puts a nice sociobiological spin on an intense > > human emotion. In support, you are probably aware that guilt is often > > expressed or felt by humans following the loss of a child or loved one. > > There is also the expression that the death of a loved one is more > > difficult if the individual was murdered instead of accidentally killed or > > died from poor health. Why should the situations surrounding the death > > influence the level of grief? That relatives of murdered victims have no > > lesson to learn or guilt to experience could this be interferring with an > > evolutionary program and normal function of mourning as you suggest and > > make for a stronger emotion? > > As a parent, I have felt the sudden rush and overwhelming "terror" of being on > a boat marina and then turning to check on my toddler and not seeing her behind > me. (And thankfully then feeling the total bathing sense of relief, followed > shortly by a sense of self-recrimination and foolishness for not having seen > that she took an available ladder to a different level.) > > There are many situations where human emotions don't seem to have a rational basis. > The feelings of guilt of humans who survive deadly airline crashes, soldiers > who survive when their comrades are killed, etc. These feelings seem to be > widespread across human culture raising the question of a genetic contribution. > > I think having the "genes" associated with grieving/mourning/guilt would mean > they could be triggered independent of the actual loss; one could say an Innate Releasing Mechanism for a perceived offspring loss. > The triggering of the fear of the loss (perceived loss of offspring/unexpected > separation) could itself play a major role in shaping parental behavior > (learning) independent of any role the same genes may play in association with actual mourning/grieving behavior > when a loss occurs. > > > > I have also read or heard somewhere that the > > parent who grieves the most for the loss of their child is more often the > > parent who would claim the child most resembles them. Again you can see > > the sociobiological connection. > > Whether you call it sociobiology, behavioral ecology or simply ethology, I > think that there is in fact a genetic role in emotions/feelings or whatever. > In the case of the so-called mourning behavior of recent discussions, I think > it not coincidental that all the species mentioned (elephants, dolphins, > chimpanzees, etc.) are strongly K-selection strategists. As I said earlier, it > would seem logical that a greater sense of pain (grieving) would be associated > with an offspring loss that is of proportionally greater magnitude. From a fitness viewpoint, one would predict that individual offspring losses among > r-selection strategists parents to be less likely to be associated with mental > pain because the parental investment per individual offspring is less than that of a species that is K-selection strategist parent. > > > > At the end of the day however, you can > > not dismiss the cognitive process that is needed to trip the emotional > > response. > > I remain to be convinced that a cognitive process is necessary for mourning behavior to be > exhibited. However, just because what appears to be mourning behavior can be explained independent of a cognition, of course, does not mean > that a cognitive role is not present. > > > Much more fascinating to me than all the sociobiological spin > > that is placed on human emotions is the potential for a shared emotional > > similarity between humans and non-human animals surrounding the loss of a > > loved one. This one particular behaviour - of apparent mourning a death, > > more than any other behaviour expressed by animals, makes me ponder the > > cognitive process of animals. What else to they know and think about? > I agree that this is indeed a most interesting question. In fact you may recall that one of the first (possibly the first) messages I sent to this discussion group was related to the possibility that some cows exhibit mourning behavior - not just for their calves but also for group-mates, possibly kin. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" 23-JUN-1998 14:39:17.53 To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Mourning yo ray, boy this hurts..... > -----Original Message----- > From: W. Ray Stricklin [mailto:ws31@umail.umd.edu] [snip] > discussion about cows, pigs, sheep, etc. (the core species of > applied ethology) [snip] to quote Bertrand Russell: "On induction, or "Why do you believe the sun will rise tomorrow?": ... The farmer, who has fed the chicken every day throughout its life, at last wrings its neck instead, showing that the more refined views as to the uniformity of nature would have been useful to the chicken." come to think of it, i think that this may apply to a few ongoing discussions as well.... : ) tongue-in-cheekly yours, guy From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" 23-JUN-1998 14:40:02.13 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: subjective scoring I am beginning to suspect that Edgar Allan Poe was close to the mark when he asked, _Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream?_ Bill Campbell :-) From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 23-JUN-1998 15:06:16.66 To: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology (E-mail)" Subj: RE: RE: Mourning OK. Yes, I did leave out chickens and turkeys and all the other feathered critters. But I could argue that they fit into the category of "etc." Come to think of it, such a classification system could save most univeristies considerable costs for printing stationary, etc. Here at Maryland we just renamed ourselves the Department of Animal and Avian Sciences - a long and I believe redundant title. We could have used the title "The Department of Animal, Etc. Sciences" and this would have saved much in printing costs, typing time, etc. And at Penn State you could maybe have a "Department of Animal Science, Etc." On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:01:21 -0400 gfb1@psu.edu wrote: > yo ray, > > boy this hurts..... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: W. Ray Stricklin [mailto:ws31@umail.umd.edu] > [snip] > > discussion about cows, pigs, sheep, etc. (the core species of > > applied ethology) > [snip] > > to quote Bertrand Russell: > > "On induction, or "Why do you believe the sun will rise tomorrow?": ... > The farmer, who has fed the chicken every day throughout its life, at last > wrings its neck instead, > showing that the more refined views as to the uniformity of nature would > have been useful to the chicken." > > come to think of it, i think that this may apply to a few ongoing > discussions as well.... : ) > > tongue-in-cheekly yours, > guy > ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 23-JUN-1998 15:32:08.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Mourning In a message dated 98-06-23 00:31:58 EDT, you write: << I have just been looking at costs and benefits, and optimality models, I am aware not all behaviour can be explained using optimality models, but I was wondering, what benefit if any is there to a mother who carries around or stay's with and protects an obviously long dead baby, as if they are mourning it's loss. I have heard of this happening in Elephants and Dolphins. Surely it can't be that in all cases the mother isn't aware of the death. Please excuse me if I am missing some important point here, I really haven't looked into this in any depth, I was just wondering. >> This brought to mind an experience I had many years ago in my teens. I worked at a German Shepherd kennel that often took both horses and dogs for the local animal control when they were over full. One evening there was a call concerning a GS bitch the authorities had a complaint on. Yes, there was room for her, and I hung around waiting to see if they confiscated her and brought her in. It was after dark when the animal control truck pulled in and unloaded the dog. She had been tied to a floorless dog house on a four foot chain. The small area she could reach, and the dirt floor in the dog house, had been a mix of mud, feces, and urine. She was hairless except for head and back (urine and feces scald) and had infected sores all over her naked skin under all the mud and dried feces. She had been tied with a wide leather collar that despite her very emaciated condition was embedded in her neck. Even half of the clasp from the chain was embedded in her throat, and animal control had cut the chain with bolt cutters as close as they could get to the snap to free her. (The owner told animal control he had no choice but to tighten the collar because she kept slipping her collar and escaping). Despite her terrible condition, my friend thought she recognized the dog as one she herself had bred several years before, sold, and boarded for the first three or four years of the dog's life. We spent hours that night cleaning the dog up and getting the collar and all the maggots out of her neck. Although at times she screamed in pain, she seemed to understand we were trying to help and she never made to bite. When we finally got the collar out of her flesh, sure enough, a tag was on it with her name "Princess". It was the dog my friend had bred eight years previously. We later learned her owners had moved and given her away, and those owners gave her away, and those owners gave her away. I fell in love with her and adopted her, and was later shocked to realize she was pregnant! She bore two pups, which appeared to be full term, but both were born dead. She was very anxious and upset over the first pup being dead. She kept whining and worriedly cleaning it and pushing it up against herself, trying to get it to nurse. Any attempt to take the pup met with a vicious defense from her. An hour and a half later the second pup was born, and she then ate the first pup. No more pups came, and she was not about to relinquish the one she had. She constantly cleaned it and tried to nurse it. That night she howled mournfully several times during the night. The next day, the pup was 24 hours dead and getting ripe and she still would not allow anyone near it. In desperation I started searching for anyone with nursing pups that might lend me one. I could find no pups but did find a two week old litter of kittens whose owner was willing to risk an experiment. I brought the kitten home and slathered it with milk I had milked from Princess, and very cautiously introduced it to the whelping box. For the first hour, she ignored the kitten. After the second hour, the kitten and dead pup were getting equal attention. After the third hour she ate the dead pup. She nursed and raised the kitten. Princess lived two more years and the cat lived to be nine. I have pictures of Princess laying on the living room floor looking at the camera with the five week old kitten perched between her ears. But I have never forgotten her distress and that mournful howling that first night. If that was not grief and mourning, then I don't know what is. Kathy Hughes From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 23-JUN-1998 15:40:19.27 To: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: subjective scoring On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:39:37 -0600 (CST) Bill Campbell wrote: > I am beginning to suspect that Edgar Allan Poe was close to the mark when he > asked, > > _Is all that we see or seem > but a dream within a dream?_ > > Bill Campbell :-) > > Had Poe been writing as a scientist he might have asked about science, Is our labor what we deem it to be, or merely a replicator within a replicator? Of course Poe would have used better prose! ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"noritatu@hotmail.com" "nora peskin" 23-JUN-1998 19:12:38.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: love between cats and dogs?? I didn´t know what subject should this mail have had, so I´m sorry if it isn´t the suited one. I am the owner of a female dog who´s 3 years old and a male cat of 1 and a half years old (which is cut). I brought the kitten home when he was one month aprox. and the dog was going through a psychological pregnancy after her period. They played all the time and never had a fight (I´m sorry if my vocabulary isn´t the appropiate, I can´t find the words to describe the aparent "love" my pets have always shared) Some months ago, however, I started to notice that the cat was grooming the dog on her face, especially around the eyes and ears. I read somethings about cat grooming each other but never of a dog and a cat doing so. Can sb. explain this to me ? Thanks, Nora. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"steppe@ou.edu" "Steppe" 23-JUN-1998 22:37:18.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: cats:personality and coat color Does anyone know if there's any basis to the theory that coat pattern/color is linked with personality traits in cats? I know that breed influences behavior---siamese tend to be more vocal, etc. But I've read that calico and tortisshell cats typically are "clowns" or have more quirky personalities. Although I can testify that my tortie has QUITE the personality (she initiated a "fetch" game where she would bring me a straw and wait for me to throw it, she demands to sample my food and will even eat fruit, she grabs my hand when she want to be petted, etc, etc), I don't know if this is true of other torties or calicoes. Anyone know? ---steppe From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 23-JUN-1998 22:47:25.61 To: IN%"steppe@ou.edu" "Steppe" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: cats:personality and coat color On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Steppe wrote: > But > I've read that calico and tortisshell cats typically are "clowns" or > have more quirky personalities. I've never heard this, but it would sure help to explain my calico! She seems to be perpetually in heat (although spayed as a kitten)--she LOVES everybody (humans, cats, dogs, whomever), she is eternally HAPPY. Not a bad way to live. ;-) Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/stereo.html the stereotypical behaviors database ================================================== I am always willing to learn, however I do not always like to be taught. -- Winston Churchill From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 23-JUN-1998 23:20:55.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Bonding and Grief It grieves me greatly to sit and hear ethologists and psychologists and behaviourists and everybody discuss grief,loss,mourning,and sadness as adaptive entities. They are injuries. We are wounded by loss. Why? Because we BOND. Bonding is adaptive. Breathing is adaptive. The interruption of either is painful. The extent and intensity of the pain is irrelevant in adaptive terms. The purpose of the pain is informative and, in the main, adaptive responses are rapid. Bonding in pairs, families or social groups is a neurochemical process involving the same hedonic apparatus as all pleasure and addictive experience. The severance of the bond, by any means, induces the acute chemistry of 'withdrawal' symptoms. This applies to the isolated neonate, the bereft mother, the jilted lover or the infatuated suitor. The intensity of the suffering is in proportion to the intensity of the bonding. It can and will be measured by biochemists and neurophysiologists and expressed in micrograms of opioids and dopamine whether it suits our metaphysical preferences or not! The process of bonding comes under the 'control' of eliciting stimuli and the process of grieving (withdrawal) is similarly prompted. I would tentatively replace the 'Ooh' and 'Aah' of the demented chimpanzee hauling her dead infant about the treetops or the elephants gently exploring the desiccated outlines of a herd member's carcass, with Pavlovian prompts. The resemblance of the prompt to reality grades though cognitive capacity from the shape and smell of the lost infant to the jilted Miss Cavendish's timecapsule of stored grief. You can die of grief. This is not adaptive. It is an accident. The intense grief of losing a loved-one to alcoholic addiction involves bonding. The well meaning advice is the process of 'Withdrawal with Love' A result, that offends sentiment and conceit, is often divorce once the drinker is 'saved' and the griever is tranquil. Why? Because the process of disengagement from pain, humiliation and fear is the conscious destruction of the raw emotions of bonding. A necessary pro-active mourning process - perhaps. Healing is the process of extinction. The sustained absence of reward eventually results in nullification of the power of the evoking stimuli. Here is the opportunity for helpful intervention of skilful counsel. Morbidity is the failure of Extinction. Robin 'Sleep that knits up the ravell'd sleeve of Care...' Macbeth From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 24-JUN-1998 00:03:50.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Haversham (or Caversham? Faversham?) Who the dickens was she? From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 24-JUN-1998 01:23:22.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" CC: Subj: Bonding/Robin To: Robin Walker c/o applied ethology network I read your take on the bonding and grief topic with great interest,as you seem to have thought this through quite a bit. Permit me to express my perspective on this topic, using your conclusions of the healing process as a springboard: "Because the process of disengagement from pain, humiliation and fear is the conscious destruction of the raw emotions of bonding." and "Healing is the process of extinction. The sustained absence of reward eventually results in nullification of the power of the evoking stimuli..." >From my view: I would prefer to consider the healing process to be one of acceptance (of the painful severance) rather than the extinction of the "addictive experience" that you describe. That is, learning to live with this emotional wound, and especially, accepting the experience of 'phantom pains'(renewed 'withdrawal symptoms') that spring up when the mind wanders into the past to review memories of "the bond". Of this, I believe myself to be speaking in human terms because I am not able to say whether or not other types of animals have the ability to think back into the past as distant as we are able to. So, I am wondering if our grieving (withdrawal) process makes us different from other animals in that we can carry our grief for longer periods? Then again, don't some animals become inconsolable and also show extended bouts of depression after the loss of a bonded companion? In addition, is "disengagement" better helped by the "conscious destruction of the raw emotions of bonding", or rather, the active CON-struction of raw emotions through new experiences of bonding? Or do the two actions work in tandem? Thank you for your patience as I trip my way through your essay. As you can tell it has got me thinking....! -Donna Reynolds From: IN%"S.Chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk" "Sarah Chaplin" 24-JUN-1998 03:17:40.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Mourning > She bore two pups, which appeared to be full term, but both were born > dead. > She was very anxious and upset over the first pup being dead. She kept > whining and worriedly cleaning it and pushing it up against herself, trying to > get it to nurse. Any attempt to take the pup met with a vicious defense from > her. An hour and a half later the second pup was born, and she then ate > the first pup. > No more pups came, and she was not about to relinquish the one she had. > She constantly cleaned it and tried to nurse it. That night she howled > mournfully several times during the night. The next day, the pup was 24 > hours dead and getting ripe and she still would not allow anyone near > it. In desperation I started searching for anyone with nursing pups that > might lend me one. I could find no pups but did find a two week old > litter of kittens whose owner was willing to risk an experiment. > I have never forgotten her distress and that mournful howling that first > night. If that was not grief and mourning, then I don't know what is. I am not am expert on dog breeding but I have seen a few litters born and what you have described sounds like a very normal reaction to living pups. If the pup did not (could not) respond to it's mother's maternal behaviour then it is possible that that she was howling from frustration due to thwarting of this very strongly motivated behaviour. I think your story could equally well be used as evidence for the theory that Ray Stricklin's colleague proposed: > that in some instances females in the presence of their young are so > highly motivated toward maternal behavior that it may be hard for them > to suddenly switch off the care-giving, etc. - that in some cases of > infant death, the mother may require a couple of days for her system to > adjust hormonally, etc. away from maternal behavior. Thus, the mother > attending a dead infant could be viewed as simply continuing a > behavioral response that was triggered some days earlier. I would like to apologise for making your touching and obviously very personal story sound so mechanistic, it is only to propose an alternative explanation. I wouldn't want to spoil your memories of Princess. On a slightly different track . . . I cannot comment on the loss of a child but I remember the grief of losing a parent very clearly. By "thinking" about it I could make myself feel either better (by being rational) or worse (self-pity) but the grief itself was a raw emotion; a feeling of loss, of being bereft, which was beyond my control. I would suggest that this grief was an "animal" emotion but the mourning process was almost ritualised and perhaps more to do with culture. (A bit of farm animal stuff now.) When a cow stands by the gate, bellowing, in the middle of the night, after she has been separated from her calf perhaps it is this loss that she is experiencing. I can't say more here than Ray Stricklin has already said: > This sounds to me to be a situation very much like other arguments about > behavior, motivation, and welfare where it is argued that the animal > experiences "suffering" resultant from motivation but in the absence of > being able to engage in a given behavior. > Therefore, I don't believe that cognition would be necessary for the > mother to experience "suffering" in association with the loss of an > offspring. Although, I would add that cows which behave in this way do so for only one, or possibly two nights, and soon revert to normal behaviour (normal in this context being the usual behaviour for housed dairy cows), and the cows that I have observed have always been within earshot of their calves . . . Sarah Sarah Chaplin Dairy Health Unit SAC Veterinary Science Diviion Auchincruive AYR KA6 5AE Tel.01292 520318 Fax.01292 521069 Email.s.chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 24-JUN-1998 03:22:48.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (Fwd) Re: (Fwd) Let Sleeping dogs... ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: joseph.stookey@usask.ca Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:48:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: (Fwd) Let Sleeping dogs... To: mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk Mike, I thought you might find the following quote of interest: "Sociability.-.... Every one must have noticed how miserable horses dogs, sheep, &c., are when separated from their companions, and what strong mutual affection the two former kinds, at least, shew on their reunion. It is curious to speculate on the feelings of a dog, who will rest peacefully for hours in a room with his master or any of the family, without the least notice being taken of him; but if left for a short time by himself, barks or howls dismally.." Darwin. 1871. The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex. Darwin seems to have accurately described the response of our family dog, Annie, who is content to sleep for hours at our feet without any interaction and then becomes nervous and agitated at our departure from the house. Contentment in our dog seems to come simply from our presence without any real need for direct interaction. Based on her response to our presence (and our absence) the number of hours she sleeps and the number of hours she/we interact must overlap! Sincerely, Joe ====================== Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 24-JUN-1998 05:31:37.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group", IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" CC: Subj: RE: subjective scoring Well, the Poe quote seems to be a summation of Berkleyist philosophy which rested on the question of how you could prove the existence of something that was not being directly perceived. This was also skitted in an anonymous limerick that went something like... A philosopher, one Bishop Berkeley, remarked, metaphysically, darkly "Quite half that we see, cannot possibly be, and the rest's altogether unlikely" Sorry folks - bit off topic that Best wishes Chris rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ ---------- > From: W. Ray Stricklin > To: Bill Campbell > Cc: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: subjective scoring > Date: 23 June 1998 22:33 > > > > On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:39:37 -0600 (CST) Bill Campbell > wrote: > > > I am beginning to suspect that Edgar Allan Poe was close to the mark when he > > asked, > > > > _Is all that we see or seem > > but a dream within a dream?_ > > > > Bill Campbell :-) > > > > > > Had Poe been writing as a scientist he might have asked about science, > > Is our labor what we deem it to be, > or merely a replicator within a replicator? > > Of course Poe would have used better prose! > > > ---------------------- > W. Ray Stricklin > University of Maryland From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 24-JUN-1998 05:32:11.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group", IN%"noritatu@hotmail.com" "nora peskin" CC: Subj: Cats and dogs I can report that a Newfoundland male dog and a Burmese female cat developed a relationship. Both were sexually entire and introduced (dog to cat) as adults. The dog was rehomed to me from a breeding establishment due to his aggressive behaviour to other dogs when ever a bitch came into oestrous. My assessment social situation in the house was that the dogs saw that cat as a high status member of the total domestic "pack", higher than the Newfoundland who was clearly the highest ranking canine. The cat's pleasure seemed mainly founded on the deep ectasy evinced by the cat when the dog washed it. This appeared to be particularly intense when the dog licked deep inside the cat's ears, a behaviour which was clearly solicited by the cat, by head rubbing around the Newfoundland's nose and mouth. As a footnote,one neutered male offspring of this cat learned the same behaviour and showed equal pleasure when successful in eliciting the "ear lick". When the Newfoundland died, the two cats attempted to get other dogs in the house (a springer spaniel and a golden retriever) to perform, but this was unsuccessful in getting them to do the "deep ear lick", though they would indulge in non-aggressive interactive behaviour in various other ways. Best wishes Chris rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ ---------- From: nora peskin To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: love between cats and dogs?? Date: 24 June 1998 02:12 I didn´t know what subject should this mail have had, so I´m sorry if it isn´t the suited one. I am the owner of a female dog who´s 3 years old and a male cat of 1 and a half years old (which is cut). I brought the kitten home when he was one month aprox. and the dog was going through a psychological pregnancy after her period. They played all the time and never had a fight (I´m sorry if my vocabulary isn´t the appropiate, I can´t find the words to describe the aparent "love" my pets have always shared) Some months ago, however, I started to notice that the cat was grooming the dog on her face, especially around the eyes and ears. I read somethings about cat grooming each other but never of a dog and a cat doing so. Can sb. explain this to me ? Thanks, Nora. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------- From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 24-JUN-1998 05:32:18.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group", IN%"steppe@ou.edu" "Steppe" CC: Subj: RE: cats:personality and coat color Hi Over a period of many years I have kept and bred cats - moggies, burmese and currently british shorthairs. I could not draw any correlation between coat colour and temperament from my experience. Indeed, I have two blue cream and white tortie/calico kittens in a current 8 wk old litter whose temperament could not be more different. One is a "pushy" attention seeker, the other, larger individual is quiet, shy and would like to be invisible! In my experience the other behaviours described, including fetching play objects, are typical of well adjusted female and neutered male domestic cats. Best wishes Chris rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ ---------- > From: Steppe > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: cats:personality and coat color > Date: 24 June 1998 05:31 > > Does anyone know if there's any basis to the theory that coat > pattern/color is linked with personality traits in cats? I know that > breed influences behavior---siamese tend to be more vocal, etc. But > I've read that calico and tortisshell cats typically are "clowns" or > have more quirky personalities. Although I can testify that my tortie > has QUITE the personality (she initiated a "fetch" game where she would > bring me a straw and wait for me to throw it, she demands to sample my > food and will even eat fruit, she grabs my hand when she want to be > petted, etc, etc), I don't know if this is true of other torties or > calicoes. Anyone know? > ---steppe From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" 24-JUN-1998 07:56:06.04 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" CC: Subj: Bonding and Grief Message text written by Robin Walker >It grieves me greatly to sit and hear ethologists and psychologists and behaviourists and everybody discuss grief,loss,mourning,and = sadness as adaptive entities. = They are injuries. We are wounded by loss.< Robin, I have similar difficulty calling "schizophrenia" an adaptation, sometime= s things do break. You can choose to believe that a "gene for" schizophren= ia exists if the disorder occurs more than would be probable on the basis of= mutation. However, not all chemical bonds are equally durable. For all Dawkins earlier rapture about the perfect copies that genes make, it's probably not so. Our little elves sometimes do messy work. Bonding and grief ... easily conceived as alternative outputs from a comm= on system. Termination of either can have functional properties similar to the onset of the corresponding half. In behavioral research, terminatio= n of reward elicits performance changes similar to the onset of punishment although the mechanisms may or may not differ. A flow of endorphins related to an affair (or even the idea of one!) with a lively 25 yo femal= e is truly wonderful; her sudden change of attitude induces withdrawal phenomena. By now I've asked a few of my lady clients whether they amplify tears, remorse, or fear in order to manipulate their partners, bosses, and coworkers. "Oh sure, we do it all the time." Some of them do it even = to get rid of boring mates. I was stunned by their frank admission of such= deception. I wish I had of known their skill some 30 years ago! Guys likely do similar things to shed himself of a female but express it in th= e form of irritability, criticism, silence, escape to television, and failu= re to help with the kids. Jim Brody From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 24-JUN-1998 08:13:24.09 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Bonding and Grief On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 06:14:17 +0100 Robin Walker wrote: > It grieves me greatly to sit and hear ethologists and psychologists and > behaviourists and everybody discuss grief,loss,mourning,and > sadness as adaptive entities. > > They are injuries. We are wounded by loss. > > Why? > > Because we BOND. > > Bonding is adaptive. Breathing is adaptive. The interruption of either > is painful. The extent and intensity of the pain is irrelevant in adaptive > terms. The purpose of the pain is informative and, in the main, adaptive > responses are rapid. > An argument that pain is _not_ adaptive? I find this argument rather difficult to fathom. I believe the real problem here is that there is considerable misunderstanding about the proper use of the term "adaptive." Adaptation is not a rapid response. Adaptation occurs across generations. Adaptation is the process whereby characteristics (behavioral or otherwise) of _individuals_ come to be ones which promote survival and reproduction in a given environment. This occurs through the _long-term_ action (over generations) of natural selection on the genome of the _population_. An adaptive trait is one that is the product of adaptation. And just because a behavioral/emotional trait is adaptive does not mean that it cannot be felt by humans (or other animals) or that the feeling is not real. I acknowledge that in practice it is difficult to identify truly adaptive traits that can be readily identified as _the_ contributor to a particular survival problem. Nevertheless, posing and discussing questions about ultimate causation of behavior is supposed to a major component of ethology - and I believe of applied ethology as well. Darwin is said to have unified the life sciences with his thesis on evolution. Ethology was supposed to have tied the study of behavior to the other life sciences through its application of evolutionary principles to the study of behavior. Coincidentally, yesterday I received from Oxford Press a copy of "The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals; Definitive Edition" (with Introduction, Afterword and Commentaries by Paul Ekman, 1998). Darwin did not get all the details correct in this book first published in 1872, but there is no doubt that he considered emotions to be products of evolution. In no way do I intend to suggest that human grief is not real. Losses by death or by other causes are extremely painful and common to us all. Discussing the biological basis of human emotion in no way should diminish its role or significance in the lives of humans. I wish that adaptation brought about only "good" and that pain was not adaptive. Unfortunately, the system seems not to have been "designed" to bring about this endpoint. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"rebecca.ledger@brunel.ac.uk" 24-JUN-1998 10:18:15.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: cats: personality and coat colour For my MSc thesis in Edinburgh in 1993, I assessed the behavioural responses of British Shorthair cats and kittens (29 litters, 84 kittens) to a variety of stimuli. Kittens were scored as either having a red coat gene absent or present. Kittens with red coats (including dilute red) made more escape attempts when handled by an unfamiliar person and struggled for a longer time compared with kittens that did not have red coats. (See Ledger, R.A. & O'Farrell, V. 1996. Factors influencing the reactions of cats to humans and novel objects. In. Proc. 30th Int. Congress of the ISAE, Guelph, Canada). In 'Domestication: The decline of environmental appreciation', Hemmer gives an account of the linked mechanisms of melanin and dopamine production in mammals, which I believe explains these results. Seems like there's something in the idea that red heads can be more fiery after all! Rebecca Ledger Brunel University Egham Surrey, UK. TW20 0JZ From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 24-JUN-1998 12:27:03.08 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" CC: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" Subj: RE: Bonding and Grief On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:53:59 -0400 JBrody@compuserve.com wrote: > I have similar difficulty calling "schizophrenia" an adaptation, sometimes > things do break. A large segment of the human population suffers from the debilitating effects of sickle cell anemia. As I recall, this is a single gene condition whose negative effects are experienced in association with the homozygous recessive genotype. However, those persons who are heterozygous in genotype have resistance to malaria, a disease that historically was enormously detrimental to the population of persons living in topical environments. From the viewpoint of natural selection the people who suffer from sickle cell anemia today are not "broken" nor are they the products of a system that was "broken." Natural selection was very successful in producing humans capable of living and reproducing in areas infested with malaria. From an anthropocentric view, the process of natural selection might be said to have been rather ruthless in its development of replicators (humans capable of reproducing in the tropics) because sickle cell anemia is an extremely painful disease. But natural selection is not a moral agent. Natural selection has only successful production of replicators as its endpoint. It has no concern for the suffering of individuals. If some suffering will increase the fitness of replicators, then suffering will result. If pleasure from endorphins will bring about greater replication, then pleasure will be employed. We humans, not nature, are concerned about the suffering of those persons who experience pain from sickle cell anemia. It is we humans who have an obligation to work toward finding a solution to this problem. It was nature that produced the problem; not because nature was broken, only that nature takes whatever course will ensure the continued reproduction of replicators. The genetic contribution to schizophrenia is apparently much more complicated - but the model of sickle cell anemia may still have relevance. Regardless, I doubt very much that from the viewpoint of natural selection, whatever genes that contribute to the condition would be considered to be the consequence of something that is "broken." I expect that the genes associated with schizophrenia when incompletely expressed, when found in some combination, and(or) when associated with life in some environments are likely beneficial to human reproduction. At the risk of giving an overly simplistic example, the manic phase in some bipolar persons apparently is associated with creativity and productivity. This is not to say that the condition is one that should be treated or that research is not needed. Indeed, it is apparently an extremely debilitating disease in need of much more research. But this still does not equate to schizophrenia being the product of something of nature that has become "broken." It may be helpful to patients and those persons who treat them to view the condition in such a manner, but from the viewpoint of biology, I don't see how such a classification is progressive. > You can choose to believe that a "gene for" schizophrenia > exists if the disorder occurs more than would be probable on the basis of > mutation. However, not all chemical bonds are equally durable. For all > Dawkins earlier rapture about the perfect copies that genes make, it's > probably not so. Our little elves sometimes do messy work. Dawkins never said that genes are immortal - he never said they always copy true. In fact he when to some detail to note that genes are _not_ immortal. He did, however, expend considerable effort to point out that genes are the _most_ immortal of the agents - from the levels at which one could say selection acts; the list which includes genes, chromosomes, individuals, or any reproducing group of individuals, including species. Yes, apparently point mutations do occur within some gene sequences at greater frequency than others. But schizophrenia is known to occur within families and twin studies also indicate a genetic component - neither of which can be easily explained by mutation alone. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 24-JUN-1998 16:13:25.39 To: IN%"S.Chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk" "'Sarah Chaplin'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Mourning Sarah In response to your comment below - we find that with beef cattle it is a similar story, but of more interest is the observation, by cattle producers here, that this enforced weaning will demonstrate which of your cows are already pregnant again; those that hang by the yards, where there calves are confined, for several days are those that are not pregnant, and those that move off after a few hours or a day are those that are pregnant. I'm not sure if this has been 'scientifically' tested, but I'm assured that it is the case. Again, this would indicate a large hormonal component to this maternal behaviour. A similar thing is seen in broody hens - high levels of prolactin are related to this behaviour; hens will remain sitting on infertile eggs for greatly extended periods (long after the hatching date) and prolactin remains high. When prolactin falls (or its release is blocked) then the broody behaviour is abolished. Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah Chaplin [SMTP:S.Chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 8:18 > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Mourning > > > Although, I would add that cows which behave in this way do so for > only > one, or possibly two nights, and soon revert to normal behaviour > (normal > in this context being the usual behaviour for housed dairy cows), and > the > cows that I have observed have always been within earshot of their > calves . . . > > Sarah > > > Sarah Chaplin > Dairy Health Unit > SAC Veterinary Science Diviion > Auchincruive > AYR KA6 5AE > Tel.01292 520318 > Fax.01292 521069 > Email.s.chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk From: IN%"steppe@ou.edu" "Steppe" 24-JUN-1998 23:29:34.68 To: IN%"rebecca.ledger@brunel.ac.uk" "Rebecca Ledger", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "animal behavior" CC: Subj: RE: cats: personality and coat colour Rebecca et al, Yes, this information is similar to something I read quite some time ago. It linked the presence of the "red coat gene" to certain personality traits. It claimed that the "red gene" was genetically similar to the wild-type gene displayed by pre-domestic felines, and carried with it certain personality traits found in these wild felines. Does that sound reasonable? --steppe From: IN%"mayersm@numbat.murdoch.edu.au" 25-JUN-1998 02:27:48.54 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: cats I was just wondering what the difference was between feral and domestic cats. Is it just a behaviouraldifference? or is it genetic as well Michelle Michelle Mayers (honours student) Division of Veterinary and Biomedical Sciences, Murdoch University. W.A. 6150 AUSTRALIA From: IN%"J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" "Julie Durrell" 25-JUN-1998 05:30:19.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Mourning behaviour So far, it has been suggested that the behaviours performed by (non-human) mothers separated from their young are not indicative of mourning behaviour. If this is the case, does mourning exist as it is commonly understood. Is it that, our common understanding of the term is inadequate, or is it being suggested that non-human animals are incapable of this emotion (but that humans are). I hope this makes sense. Julie Durrell, Queen's University of Belfast + A.R.I.N.I. (Hillsborough). From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 25-JUN-1998 07:58:57.49 To: IN%"J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" "'Julie Durrell'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Mourning behaviour We have difficulty in separating human mourning from the emotional processes of forced withdrawal from powerfully addictive bonding. The human psyche is like a vast Hall of Mirrors in which the Present, Past and Future are reflected and replicated in immense complexity. We operate at the most developed level of awareness and can still grieve instinctively and helplessly like any bereft creature. We can also indulge in introspection and comparison of our grief. We can consider grieving next Thursday evening and arrange to share in a group meeting. The socio-drama of grieving (funerals, miralogia, violent tearing of hair and clothing) are part of our coping strategies. Animals suffer no less but at a much less complex level. I think we can perceive an obligatory degree of suffering in the simple dysphoria of loss. Attempts to regain comfort and contact in any species can (I believe) be fairly described as frustration admixed with fear. The frustrative vigour of attempts to recapture hedony may look like 'mourning'. There should be a fairly predictable parsimony of grief. It would be a disadvantage (see how I avoid the word 'adaptive') for a ungulate with a herd society and a flight survival mechanism, to linger too long at the scene of juvenile mortality. Pick your own species and figure out the appropriate opportunities and allowable extents. Just as it is considered "good adjustment" to return from the Poles of fear or anger to resting contentment, so it must be good grief management to struggle up from the horribly aversive, dry mouthed, emetic, shuddering despair of emotional withdrawal to tranquillity and resignation, within a period of time commensurate with health and survival. It is all a seamless garment but not demeaned or belittled by parsimonious tailoring. Robin -----Original Message----- From: Julie Durrell [SMTP:J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk] Sent: 25 June 1998 12:36 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Mourning behaviour So far, it has been suggested that the behaviours performed by (non-human) mothers separated from their young are not indicative of mourning behaviour. If this is the case, does mourning exist as it is commonly understood. Is it that, our common understanding of the term is inadequate, or is it being suggested that non-human animals are incapable of this emotion (but that humans are). I hope this makes sense. Julie Durrell, Queen's University of Belfast + A.R.I.N.I. (Hillsborough). From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 25-JUN-1998 08:02:48.18 To: IN%"J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" "Julie Durrell", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Mourning behaviour Re: hormonal dictates of behaviours that appear to be mourning. Some of the responses appear to assume that these behaviours are hormonally dictated in animals therefore are not "mourning" behaviours. Humans are not being included in the "animal" category. An extension of that argument would be the assumption that mourning behaviours in humans are not hormonally dictated and are true "mourning" behaviours. I think there are a lot of holes in this reasoning. Deb From: IN%"AMoon-Fanelli@infonet.tufts.edu" 25-JUN-1998 09:09:46.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Bonding and Grief Heather, We do not have enough data to know how bad thyroid deficiency has to be before we see behavioral effects--however, since you increased Panda's dose of soloxine and his energy level and behavior have improved,perhaps in his case a small deficiency is enough to have adverse effects. You should stay in contact with your veterinarian when changing doses. One thing I do know is that dogs with hypothyroidism tend to metabolize drugs differently so keep that in mind if he requires medication. Dr. Jean Dodds is the primary person who suggested that immunizations can have adverse effects on the immune system etc. Dog owners jumped on the band wagon--especially those in favor of homeopathic treatments. In my experience, most veterinarians do not subscribe to Dodd's theory.I personally do not have enough knowledge in this area to take a strong stand one way or the other. Regarding your trip to Australia and Panda's arrangements, it needs to be your call. Certainly, boarding him is the safest alternative. The question is, how will that affect his behavior? How confident are you that the student can behave safely around Panda and control him? Will Panda's behavior worsen in your absence? If he is anxious at home with a new person, his threshold for biting may be lowered. Of course, if he is boarded, he will likely become anxious and you may have some initial problems with him when you get home. It's a catch 22 when dealing with fear aggressive/dominant type dogs. AFter answering the questions, let me know what you decide. Or if you have other questions, let me know. Good luck Alice From: IN%"v8350@bealenet.com" 25-JUN-1998 13:29:24.83 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Mourning behaviour With humans, I believe some of the more obsessive "fugue like" mourning reactions are perhaps more an expression of the individual's fundamental emotional construction. The person becomes "stuck" at the experience, rather than having it fade in the ongoing flow of life experiences. I wonder if the predisposition for this sort of reaction can be predicted by observation of, perhaps, a certain brittleness in the individual's, (animal or human), responses to daily life? Mary From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 25-JUN-1998 13:40:12.67 To: IN%"howlbloom@aol.com" "Howard Bloom" CC: IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: Howard Has a Birthday Happy Birthday! Jim Brody From: IN%"Chira23@aol.com" 25-JUN-1998 15:29:06.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: degree I recently graduated from NC State Unv. with a BS in Zoology. I am interested in pursuing my master's in the animal behavior field. I was wondering what kind of work I would be able to find once I have this degree (I am not interested in teaching). I am having a very difficult time finding work right now in the animal field- would furthering my education complicate matters or benefit me? At this point I have no idea what kind of jobs are available for someone interested in Ethology so any information would help! Thank you, Natasha From: IN%"Chira23@aol.com" 25-JUN-1998 15:46:36.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fwd: degree This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_X+QipQf1iYmefY00DVPiVQ) Content-id: <0_898811178@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I recently graduated from NC State Unv. with a BS in Zoology. I am interested in pursuing my master's in the animal behavior field. I was wondering what kind of work I would be able to find once I have this degree (I am not interested in teaching). I am having a very difficult time finding work right now in the animal field- would furthering my education complicate matters or benefit me? At this point I have no idea what kind of jobs are available for someone interested in Ethology so any information would help! Thank you, Natasha --Boundary_(ID_X+QipQf1iYmefY00DVPiVQ)-- From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 25-JUN-1998 15:53:03.54 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "'James F. Brody'", IN%"howlbloom@aol.com" "Howard Bloom" CC: IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Howard Has a Birthday Well then! Datal Natal felicitations to Howard ! Robin Walker -----Original Message----- From: James F. Brody [SMTP:JBrody@compuserve.com] Sent: 25 June 1998 20:39 To: Howard Bloom Cc: Darwin List_Serve; Paleopsych; HBES List Serve; Applied Ethology Subject: Howard Has a Birthday Happy Birthday! Jim Brody From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 25-JUN-1998 18:07:48.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: cat/dog social animals In a message dated 98-06-23 09:24:36 EDT, DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA writes: << Perhaps cats are social animals but not in the obvious, needy way of dogs and perhaps it is a terminology problem. >> Recent research has shown that domestic cats do have social interactions. It is not as obvious the means they use to mediate them, but it is clear that they have animals in their "social" group that they choose to associate with and others that they choose to avoid. I believe that cats are "social" but use a different interactive system. To compare the sociality of dogs and cats to each other is probably not valid. Debbie Horwitz From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 25-JUN-1998 19:42:52.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: HBD Howard's birthday is today? So is mine! I'm, um.....er......35!? Happy Birthday to yooooooo. Happy Birthday to yooooooooo. Happy Birthday dear How-ow-ow-owwwwwwrd. Happy Birthday to yoooooooooooooooooo! I know you are all very pleased for me that I haven't given up my day job! Kathy Hughes From: IN%"kats@missingpet.org" "Kat Albrecht" 25-JUN-1998 21:51:33.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Coyote Feeding Habits Greetings from your token pet detective, I am looking for someone to help share information about predatory feeding habits of what we suspect was a coyote that killed and consumed a domestic cat. Cleo, a 7 yr old outdoor long haired calico, has been missing for 12 days. The area Cleo was missing from is a mountain community in Santa Cruz, California with coyotes, bobcat, fox, and mountain lion known to reside. The owner reported hearing coyotes in the area recently and a neighbor witnessed two coyotes in the neighborhood last week. Other neighbors also report recent incidents of pets disappearing and one sighting of a bobcat. The owner had posted flyers, put an ad in the paper and had checked around her area and into the woods. The day that Cleo disappeared, gardeners had arrived to use a mower to mow down tall weeds. Because of the steep terrain (and because I am injured), we chose not to conduct a search with the use of the search dog. I instructed the owner to again conduct an intensive search of sheds, buildings and areas where the gardner might have stored tools. Many cats have crawled into open tool sheds or underneath houses (where tools are stored) and have become trapped. Anytime an outdoor cat disappears, the owner is instructed to recall if anything unusual happened the day the cat disappeared. For example, if someone had a moving van and was loading boxes into a van, the cat might have crawled into the van and might be moving across state lines! We once found a missing cat that crawled into a roofers van and was there for 3 days. The roofer checked the van and insisted the cat wasnt there..the owner was told be "be aggressive" so she told the guy she wanted to look herself..glad she did because Tony is alive because she was persistant. At any rate, I also told Leo's mother to search for any tufts of fur on the ground. The two "coyote kills" that I have worked where cats were killed by coyotes, there were tufts of fur, blood and signs of a disturbance (flower pot knocked over, dirt scattered across sidewalk). The owner called this afternoon in tears..she found several tufts of fur in the woods. We decided to respond with our search dog (cross trained in decomposition detection) to launch an investigation. After sliding (no kidding!) on our butts down the ravine, we arrived to a spot about 1/8 of a mile from the owners home. The ground was covered by leaves and it was somewhat concealed by brush (poison oak brush no less). Cleo was mostly white, but had several spots of tan, grey and chocolate points. The tufts of fur that I saw scattered on the ground were mostly white with some tan and one spot with dark brown fur. We first allowed Rachel (decomp dog) to go in. She trotted into the area and gave an immediate alert (head jerked, nose went to ground) and worked up to the tufts of fur. After momentarily sniffing the ground in the center of the fur tufts, Rachel squated to pee, her chosen cadaver alert. Rachel had already emptied her bladder before the search, so any peeing along the way is always either marking animal urine/feces or some form of decompostion (human or animal). I also noted the presence of 3 to 4 flys in the same area where Rachel marked. We immediately checked the spot where Rachel had sniffed but did not find any bone chips, hide or body parts. The fur tufts were scattered in a 7 foot radius. At least two clumps of fur were balled into a small mat which appeared to me to have been caused by saliva of something that had the fur in it's mouth and spit it out. There was one clump of fur with definate blood on it. We have a forensic hair examiner who will be working with my organization to make pet fur comparison in cases like this. We will be sending detailed photos of Cleo, samples of the fur we found in the woods along with samples we collected from Cleo's bed at home. The fact that Cleo has been missing 12 days, the decomp alert from Rachel, the presence of flys and the presence of blood on one tuft of fur are an indication that whatever animal was there was killed. We hope that the forensic hair examination will tell us whether the animal killed was Cleo or not. Once we found the fur clumps, we searched a radius of 25 yards but could not find a carcass or parts. The terrain was too steep to check further. This is the 3rd suspected coyote (or bobcat?) kill where the only evidence left was tufts of fur. The last case, we found the fur and 2 small bone chips two days after the cat was missing. I would like to know if a coyote would consume an entire cat, head, paws, rib cage and all. Would it take the kill to a den and eat it, or eat it out in the open. What about bobcats...do they take their prey into their den, or do they consume it out in the open? In the future, I want to know if we should continue looking for a carcass once we find the fur clumps. My clients often want more to bury than just a handful of fur. I need to know if we should continue an aggressive search or if the chances are that the predator will consume it and/or scavengers will take the remaining parts. Any help would be appreciated. Kat & Dogs Kathy "Kat" Albrecht Executive Director National Center For Missing Pets *Exciting Search & Rescue Stories *Tips on Finding Lost Pets *Forensic Applications To Missing Pet Investigations *Pet Search & Rescue *If You Own A Pet, Come Visit Us! http://www.missingpet.org From: IN%"steppe@ou.edu" "Steppe" 25-JUN-1998 23:23:11.74 To: IN%"mayersm@numbat.murdoch.edu.au" "Michelle Mayers", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "animal behavior" CC: Subj: RE: cats Ms. Mayers et al, As I understand it, feral is a term that can be applied to any domestic species that has "gone wild." In general, I think it describes the offspring of tame domestics who have been abandoned or run away from their "human" home. Their offspring have little to no contact with people, and after they pass the critical "imprinting" period, are more or less impossible to tame and return with any comfort to domestic life. Their behavior is quite similar to wild animals'. But I think the time frame involved is too short to effect true genetic change. I'm pretty sure that if you were to capture a pregnant female and interact intensively with her offspring, that they would display all the characteristics of tame domesticated animals. Anybody know if this is correct? ---steppe From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 25-JUN-1998 23:32:44.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Ways of the Woodfolk September 10, 1993 Key Words: prosthetic devices; Da-Glo paint Weed, NM (FWS Newsline) -- This tiny hamlet of less than 300 souls, deep in the Sacramento Mountains of southern New Mexico, was stunned to learn that their number had been reduced by one under the most tragic of circumstances. Otero County Deputy Sheriff and 17-year Weed resident William "Heap" O. Trubbel announced at a local press conference that life-long Weed inhabitant Ernesto V. "Woody" Ersatz had apparently been entirely consumed by marauding brown bears at his mountain top shanty. The proprietor of the Weed Mercantile, who has lived in Weed since 1985, became alarmed when Ersatz, 73, failed to come to town for his regular September supplies, and asked the Deputy Sheriff to look in on him. "They pretty much got him all, excepting his left leg, which everybody knows was wood," said Trubbel. "We saw a lot of bear tracks in the dirt and pine needles and such, and we knew we'd follow those furry brown bastards to hell and back if we had to." A search and destroy party was quickly formed, including several local deputies and the Fish and Wildlife Service's own G. Willakers, District Supervisor, 11-year resident of Weed, and avocational animal behaviorist. Bear-tracking dogs were supplied by Darlee J. Wingleton, whose great-grandparents homesteaded the Weed area in 1873. "It wasn't no big thing to track 'em, 'cause they was full and lazy, though we was surprised to see it was more than one bear. You don't usually see no bears cooperatin' on a kill like that," said Wingleton, "they being normally solitary and such." G. Willakers also noted that, as an avocational animal behaviorist, he too found it odd to find such cooperation among bears, though he observed that he had long suspected that individual bears defecate in different parts of the woods as a courtesy to other bears. He admits he has no hard evidence to confirm or reject his hypothesis, but suggests that popular wisdom may tend to at least partially support his idea. The tracking party followed the bear trail for some distance, up to the mountain meadow at Woodsman's Rest. The party came upon a great deal of disturbed earth and trampled ground cover at this location, as if a large number of bears had recently been at the site. One searcher remarked that it looked like "the butt end of a bears' Moose Lodge convention." While examining the many paw prints and claw marks in the soft earth, G. Willakers began to notice a pattern, faint at first but growing stronger the more he thought about it. "It really got me thinking some stuff," said G. Willakers. "I'd been reading a lot of Cheney and Seyfarth, Wasser, that crowd, and I've been reviewing a paper by this guy Bryerton. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that those weren't random claw marks in the dirt, but rather, those bears were calculating something!" said Willakers triumphantly. "It's crystal clear once you see the pattern." He went on to show the FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE NEWSLINE the following diagram, which he was able to reconstruct from the bear claw marks in the dirt at Woodsman's Rest: + - ---------------------------- | | | | | | + | + + | + - | | | | ---------------------------- | | | | | | - | - + | - - | | | | ---------------------------- Willakers suggested that evidence of a large gathering of bears, and the disturbed conditions of the surroundings, indicates that there might be some contention among the bears themselves about how best to interpret and operationalize the figure above. Nevertheless, Willakers feels that the figure helps to explain the killing of Mr. Ersatz. "I think it was spite, pure and simple," said Willakers. "The death of Mr. Ersatz was, on balance, a negative for him, and I think the bears knew that. Now we're going to kill the bears. We always do, and the bears know that, and that's pretty negative for them, in a way, if you think about it. So, notwithstanding the predictable negative-negative outcome of their spiteful act, the bears went ahead with their plan. If that's not a premeditated case of spite, I've never seen one, and I'm an avocational animal behaviorist." When asked about the possible motivations for the bears' highly spiteful attitude towards the late Mr. Ersatz, G. Willakers replied, "Well, I think that almost anyone who ever knew Woody could probably sympathize with the bears, but that's not the point, is it? As a trained avocational animal behaviorist, I have learned not to anthropomorphize. I can only deal with objective, observable fact. I can't read a bear's mind. Woody was eaten, the bears ate him, and it looks to me like spite was the cause. Beyond that, I wouldn't want to speculate. That's the nature of science. It's how we scientists operate." The FWSN contacted the head of the New Mexico Department of Natural Resources in Santa Fe, Loggerwood N. Cutterdown, for the DNR's view on the Ersatz tragedy. "Look," said Cutterdown, "I don't think we need to invoke any fancy theories here. I have been logging, ranching and grazing federal lands for more than 40 years in New Mexico, and I know bears. Fact is, bears get real hungry in the fall, winter coming on. Hungry bears will eat what hungry bears can catch. Woody Ersatz was 73, had a wooden leg, and didn't get around like he used to. QED." Cutterdown has never visited Weed, but says he plans to visit someday after his retirement from public office. Several of the local Weed residents, who were interviewed shortly after the press conference held on the porch of the Weed Mercantile, were skeptical of G. Willakers' spite theory about the cause of Mr. Ersatz's death. Ed Blinker, who moved to Weed shortly after the Big War and now runs the HeyStop at the yellow flasher out on Hwy. 24, summarized the concerns of many of his neighbors. "Hell, I've never seen a bear count much past 11, let alone do complex cost-benefit analyses. And this spite thing, what's the unit of analysis? Sure, on an individual level, it was tough on Woody. But what about at the community level? Given Woody's proclivity for sippin', dippin', and forgetting to change his clothes on any regular basis, some of us figure it to be a net plus at the community level." In a related story, Deputy Trubbel has been investigating vandalism at the home of Miss Agnes Warbel, 67, who moved to the Weed area in 1959 with her mother. Miss Warbel lives 19 miles out on Hwy. 24, and has a 20-year perfect attendance record as the lead soprano in the choir at the Weed Baptist Church. Recently, large plus and minus signs painted in the new Da-Glo paint colors sold at the Weed Mercantile have been appearing on the side of Miss Warbel's home, and she reports that several open jars of honey have been left out on her porch. Deputy Trubbel is continuing the investigation, but so far no suspects have been taken into custody. ******* This True case history was sent to me by Dr. Stephen Easely in '95 Every now and then I am forcibly reminded of it and Arlo Guthrie's Alice's Restaurant tends to get played especially when I have to get up early anyway. From: IN%"j.talling@csl.gov.uk" 26-JUN-1998 02:43:55.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"mayersm@numbat.murdoch.edu.au", IN%"steppe@ou.edu" CC: Subj: RE: cats Dear all, I have a cat which came from a feral litter. The mother abandoned the kittens when they were about 4 weeks old. My family rescued the litter and hand reared them, before finding homes for them. I kept two females. One a long haired tortie, and the other a white and tabby. Unfortunately, one was killed in a road accident but the other is five and doin well. They both behaved no differently from any of my friends cats. If any thing they tended to stay inside and do less hunting than many other cats I know. They both had a litter some time ago, sought human comfort during labor, and made nests within the house. So from my experience, there is no genetic change in feral cats compared to 'domestic' cats. Janet -- *************************************************************************** Dr Janet Talling Tel: 01904 462208 Central Science Laboratory Fax: 01904 462111 Sand Hutton YORK YO41 1LZ *************************************************************************** From: IN%"bryan.jones@bbsrc.ac.uk" "bryan.jones" 26-JUN-1998 05:37:22.71 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Job announcement --Boundary_(ID_gOgtAV5tvoiFBxku1AA0Vw) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN I attach a job advertisment and an expanded job description for a research assistant position to work with me at the Roslin Institute, Scotland. Applications are sought from all interested and suitably qualified parties. Bryan Jones --Boundary_(ID_gOgtAV5tvoiFBxku1AA0Vw) Content-type: APPLICATION/OCTET-STREAM; NAME=MicrosoftWordMac3.02 Content-disposition: ATTACHMENT; FILENAME=MicrosoftWordMac3.02 Content-transfer-encoding: X-UUENCODE begin 777 Job_ad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end --Boundary_(ID_gOgtAV5tvoiFBxku1AA0Vw) Content-type: APPLICATION/OCTET-STREAM; NAME=MicrosoftWordMac3.02 Content-disposition: ATTACHMENT; FILENAME=MicrosoftWordMac3.02 Content-transfer-encoding: X-UUENCODE begin 777 Job_description.MCW M_C< (P 0 !D $ &N@ #8< %N@ M # ( # ( #" #" M#" #@ #"X $@ #$ #$ #$ #$ "@ #$H "@ #%0 M #%0 % #&@ > #$ #. ( #0 %@ #2\ *@ #5D M#" ! $ TO T6 !D TO TO U9 "X TO M TO TO TO TO TO %)%4T5!4D-(($%34TE3 M5$%.5 TH171H;VQO9VES=" O(%!S>6-H;VQO9VES="D-#4$@0F%N9" W(')E M'!E7-I;F<@86YD('!R97-E;G1I;F<@9&%T82!A9G1E M2P@ M4'-Y8VAO;&]G>2!O Date: 26/06/98 Time: 13:57:25 This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 26-JUN-1998 08:58:31.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Mourning behaviour Julie I often think that the main difference between animal emotions and human emotions is the fact that humans rationalize (or try to) their emotions (after they experianced them), and sometimes also attach moral values to them. Andrew At 12:35 PM 6/25/98 +0100, you wrote: >So far, it has been suggested that the behaviours performed by (non-human) >mothers separated from their young are not indicative of mourning behaviour. If >this is the case, does mourning exist as it is commonly understood. Is it that, >our common understanding of the term is inadequate, or is it being suggested >that non-human animals are incapable of this emotion (but that humans are). I >hope this makes sense. > >Julie Durrell, >Queen's University of Belfast + A.R.I.N.I. (Hillsborough). From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 26-JUN-1998 10:07:50.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Someone looking for help Sarah I'm sure that whatever happened had much more to do with the change in the children's behavior and interaction with the dog (or lack thereof due to them playing the video game all day) than with a property of video games. Andrew At 01:37 PM 6/26/98 -0700, you wrote: >I have been contacted by a colleague who is asking whether >there has been any research into the potential effects of vidoe >games and play stations on dogs in terms of behavioural changes >(e.g. such as the reported links between such these devices and >epilepsy in people) . She was asking after being contacted by a >dog owner who had bought a new play station for her children >and reported that her dog had become "aggressive" to the >children when they played on it. I do not have any more details >about the incident but could probably get some if people want >more information. >Thank you >------------------------------------- >Name: Sarah Heath BVSc MRCVS >Behavioural Referrals >11 Cotebrook Drive >Upton >Chester >Cheshire >CH2 1RA >England > >Phone +44 (0) 1244 377365 >Fax + 44 (0) 1244 399228 >E-mail: Sarah Heath >Date: 26/06/98 >Time: 13:57:25 > >This message was sent by Chameleon >------------------------------------- > > > From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 26-JUN-1998 10:47:15.51 To: IN%"heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk" "Sarah Heath" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Someone looking for help On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Sarah Heath wrote: > She was asking after being contacted by a > dog owner who had bought a new play station for her children > and reported that her dog had become "aggressive" to the > children when they played on it. Well, just think about it. What happens when kids play video games? Lots of excitement, jerky movements, yelling. What dog could resist? Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/stereo.html the stereotypical behaviors database ================================================== I am always willing to learn, however I do not always like to be taught. -- Winston Churchill From: IN%"hollyn78@hotmail.com" "Holly DeGama" 26-JUN-1998 13:46:10.20 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hello Hello there, my name is Holly DeGama and I have just joined this program. I am a third year Anthropology student at the University of Alberta. I have just returned from a month in Costa Rica studying primates, and I have decided that I want to pursue a career in Ethology. I am just starting to look at what the field has to offer. Talk to you later, Holly ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"jiracka@ids.pl" 26-JUN-1998 14:47:51.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Self-licking in a Chinchila Hello Everybody, a colleague of mine who deals with small mammals and other so-called exotic animals has a chinchilla that has alopecia dorsally on its trunk and he has excluded all other reasons but self-licking - it seems the only explanation. I would guess that a tricyclic antidepressant or a SSRI could help here but have no idea which drug could be used or at what dosage? My colleague has tried a calming herbal preparation used in children and it seems to alleviate the problem. If somebody has any experience in this species could you please suggest something? Thank you very much Joanna Iracka veterinary surgeon Poland From: IN%"jiracka@ids.pl" 26-JUN-1998 14:48:48.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Behavioural testing in animal shelters Dear All, I am a veterinary surgeon from Poland and I help a little bit with behavioral problems in the Warsaw Animal Shelter. I will be in Philadelphia, PA, in August and I was wondering if it would be possible for me to spend a few days in an animal shelter (somewhere near) to learn about testing/judging/selecting dogs for adoption (especially where aggression problems may be involved). It is not yet done in a formal way or systematically in our shelter. If anybody could help me with this I would be very grateful. Thank you very much in advance, Joanna From: IN%"rudy.demeester@ping.be" "De Meester" 26-JUN-1998 17:54:24.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dog - cat social animals. Rudy De Meester dr. med. vet. sint anna 100 9220 Hamme Belgium rudy.demeester@ping.be comparing the potential for social behaviour of dogs and cats is like comparing the intelligence of horses and cows it's not more ore less it's just different. From: IN%"hollyn78@hotmail.com" "Holly DeGama" 27-JUN-1998 22:17:33.24 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Graduate programs Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone knows of graduate programs offered in Ethology. I am only in my third year but I figured that I might start looking around now. If anyone has heard anything good about a University can you let me know. Thanx! Holly ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 28-JUN-1998 11:53:55.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: APBC website Dear all, Please note that the url for the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors' website is now http://www.apbc.org.uk Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 28-JUN-1998 16:11:10.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Let sleeping dogs lie Reply to message from DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA of Mon, 22 Jun > >Dear Dr. Cameron: > Re: your statement (below): Are you suggesting that cats >need less interaction? Can do better than dogs with less interaction? > In a word, yes. >Deb > >> Cat owners probably spend less time interacting with their pets. >> Often that is the basic reason they like cats better than dogs. >> > >> > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 28-JUN-1998 17:02:03.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cats and dogs Nothing personal. I use this post only as an illustration. At least on my screen, the wrapped lines to those of one or two words interspaced with full lines (and other such visual defects in other posts) are very irritating and result in my deleting w/o reading of many of such posts. Assuming I am not alone, may I respectfully suggest that writers view their own posts with an eye to their readability . . . . assuming that they would like their posts to be read. Reply to message from rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk of Wed, 24 Jun > > >I can report that a Newfoundland male dog and a Burmese female cat >developed a relationship.=20 > >Both were sexually entire and introduced (dog to cat) as adults. The = >dog >was rehomed to me from a breeding establishment due to his aggressive >behaviour to other dogs when ever a bitch came into oestrous. > >My assessment social situation in the house was that the dogs saw tha= >t cat >as a high status member of the total domestic "pack", higher than the >Newfoundland who was clearly the highest ranking canine. > >The cat's pleasure seemed mainly founded on the deep ectasy evinced b= >y the >cat when the dog washed it. This appeared to be particularly intense = >when >the dog licked deep inside the cat's ears, a behaviour which was clea= >rly >solicited by the cat, by head rubbing around the Newfoundland's nose = >and >mouth. > >As a footnote,one neutered male offspring of this cat learned the sam= >e >behaviour and showed equal pleasure when successful in eliciting the = >"ear >lick". > >When the Newfoundland died, the two cats attempted to get other dogs = >in the >house (a springer spaniel and a golden retriever) to perform, but thi= >s was >unsuccessful in getting them to do the "deep ear lick", though they w= >ould >indulge in non-aggressive interactive behaviour in various other ways= >. > >Best wishes > >Chris > >rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk >http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ > > >---------- >=46rom: nora peskin >To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca >Subject: love between cats and dogs?? >Date: 24 June 1998 02:12 > >I didn=B4t know what subject should this mail have had, so I=B4m sorr= >y if it=20 >isn=B4t the suited one. >I am the owner of a female dog who=B4s 3 years old and a male cat of = >1 and=20 >a half years old (which is cut). I brought the kitten home when he wa= >s=20 >one month aprox. and the dog was going through a psychological pregna= >ncy=20 >after her period. They played all the time and never had a fight (I= >=B4m=20 >sorry if my vocabulary isn=B4t the appropiate, I can=B4t find the wor= >ds to=20 >describe the aparent "love" my pets have always shared) >Some months ago, however, I started to notice that the cat was groomi= >ng=20 >the dog on her face, especially around the eyes and ears. I read=20 >somethings about cat grooming each other but never of a dog and a cat= >=20 >doing so. Can sb. explain this to me ? > Thanks, > Nora.=20 > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >---------- > > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"jnm13@cus.cam.ac.uk" 29-JUN-1998 02:57:50.04 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Travelling fellowships for British Citizens Dear All, The list of categories for Winston Churchill Memorial Trust Travelling =46ellowships for 1999 have been recently announced and they include "Projects in the field of Animal Welfare". No special qualifications are needed, except British Citizenship, and if you have an individual project to be undertaken overseas that would fit within this category, then contact the Office for an application form. If selected, you will be expected to make your own plans and arrangements to achieve your objectives within the scope of the grant awarded. If awarded a Fellowship, you will receive a grant which will cover your =46ellowship expenses: return air fare, daily living, travel within the countries being visited and, in exceptional cases, some assistance with home expenses. The 1998 awards averaged =A35,750 per person. Grants usually cover a stay overseas of between 4-8 weeks. Application forms are available by sending a stamped s.a.e. (22cm x 11cm) to= : The Winston Churchill Memorial Trust, 15 Queen's Gate Terrace, London, SW7 5= PR. tel: 0171 584 9315, fax: 0171 581 0410, e-mail: office@wcmt.org.uk web-site: www.wcmt.org.uk I can't emphasise enough the usefulness of one of these Fellowships and I'm sure those other Churchill Fellows out there would agree with this. If anyone has any questions about the scheme, then please also feel free to contact me. Best wishes, Jeremy ************************************************************************ Jeremy N. Marchant, BSc(Hons), PhD, CBiol, MIBiol, University of Cambridge, ADAS Terrington, Dept. of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, & Terrington St. Clement, Madingley Road, King's Lynn, Cambridge, CB3 0ES, UK. Norfolk, PE33 0TP, UK. jnm13@cus.cam.ac.uk ************************************************************************ From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jonathan Bowen" 29-JUN-1998 05:03:29.27 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Someone looking for help Our dog gets pretty fed up when we watch TV, listen to music, read books etc. Most dogs seem to object when people shift their attention to something that is not them, but presumably the dog you are talking about is genuinely aggressive? The frame rate of video games varies considerably, from 15-30 FPS. There are warnings about maximum periods of play (+migraines and seizure risk). A large number of children in Japan suffered minor siezures when they watched a TV prog that had flicker frames in. The slower frame rates can cause headaches and visual disturbance as seen in migraine, so these things are not merely benign. Perhaps the aggressiveness seen in this dog is not simply an effect of attention deprivation? The effect of flicker rate in combination with the other factors might be important. Is this dog on any sort of medication (steroids/antihistamines). Perhaps Robin walker could comment on this case, he has posted on reward chemistry and seizure activity before and this seems to be up his street. Jon From: IN%"masuma@lucent.com" 29-JUN-1998 07:38:42.81 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jonathan Bowen" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Someone looking for help Jonathan Bowen wrote: > > Our dog gets pretty fed up when we watch TV, listen to music, read books > etc. > Most dogs seem to object when people shift their attention to something that > is not them, but presumably the dog you are talking about is genuinely > aggressive? > > The frame rate of video games varies considerably, from 15-30 FPS. There are > warnings about maximum periods of play (+migraines and seizure risk). A > large number of children in Japan suffered minor siezures when they watched > a TV prog that had flicker frames in. > The slower frame rates can cause headaches and visual disturbance as seen in > migraine, so these things are not merely benign. Here's a layperson's observation. I wonder if the dog is bored all the time as it is. Other than the medical reason cited above (which I have no knowledge about) I wonder if the dog is simply trying to communicate his utter boredom and since the kids are probably pretty animatedly playing the video game, he feels he can interact in some manner after all. The reason I say this is, my guys (3 dogs: husky/lab, malamute setter/shepherd/retriever) have _never_ given me grief about watching TV, listening to music, reading a book or even taking a nap in the middle of the day. They take it that as their opportunity to pass out. They "interrupt" me only if they need to go out to do their business. Otherwise they know they'll be busy enough when I'm not "chilling out". Just a thought. -- Masuma Barrett Email: masuma@lucent.com Lucent Technologies Voice: (303) 538-1228 11900 N. Pecos, Denver CO 80234 Fax: (303) 538-3907 From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 29-JUN-1998 09:07:20.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: links exchange Below is information about the web site of the professional society entitled Agriculture, Food, and Human Valves. The society deals with ethical issues associated with food production. Ray Stricklin --- Begin Forwarded Message --- Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 05:49:17 -0400 From: "Richard P. Haynes" Subject: links exchange Sender: owner-afhvs@phil.ufl.edu To: afhvs@phil.ufl.edu Reply-To: "Richard P. Haynes" Message-ID: To all Agriculture, Food, and Human Values Society members: We are in the process of introducing links on our web site to other sites that might be of interest to those visiting the site. We want to do this on an exchange basis so that other sites would also have links to our site. Part of the reason for doing this, of course, is to extend our own visibility. Another reason is to provide a service for our membership. Current plans are to have three categories of links. One category is for home pages of society members. If you wish to have a link to your home page on the society web site, send me you web address, your academic or professional affiliation, and some very brief account of your discipline and area of research or practice. In all, the information should be limited to about five lines. Keep in mind that this information should provide some reason why others (especially society members) might want to visit your site. A second category of links are the sites of NGOs that might be of interest to society members or prospective society members. In this category we need some information about the purpose or goals of the organization and/or the type of service it provides. Again, the information should be limited to about five lines. The third category of links are the sites of public agencies that provide services of interest to our membership. These would include academic institutes, centers, and programs as well as funding agencies and government offices. Here also the description should be limited to about five lines. A fourth category would be the sites of publishers of books or periodicals that are of interest to society members. The sites of individual serials would be of greater interest than the site of a general publisher of such serials. If you are interested in participating in this exchange or know of some organization that is, please send the relevant information to me. If you do not represent an organization in any of the last three categories, but have a contact who does, send me their e-mail address. If you have any suggestions that do not fit into any of the above categories, please feel free to make them. Our current plans are to include only those sites that provide an exchange link and that are of "professional" interest to our society members. Our own web site address is http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/rhaynes/afhvs Richard P. Haynes Executive Secretary --- End Forwarded Message --- ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"bradycol@pilot.msu.edu" "Colleen Brady" 29-JUN-1998 12:16:38.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Companion Animal Behavior Research Hi, We have a student at MSU who is just finishing her M.S. in animal behavior in horses. She is interested in pursuing a Ph.D. with an emphasis on dogs, and the human-animal bond. Can anyone suggest programs in the Eastern United States which may be appropriate? Thank you. Colleen Brady Phone (517) 353-7289 Department of Animal Science Fax (517) 432-0147 1238 Anthony Hall Michigan State University E. Lansing, MI 48824 From: IN%"rstr6415@uriacc.uri.edu" 29-JUN-1998 13:28:36.61 To: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith", IN%"steppe@ou.edu" "Steppe" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: cats:personality and coat color Some very interesting work has been done by R. Ledger and V. O'Farrell at the U. of Edinburgh which was presented in a poster at the 1996 ISAE conference in Guelph Canada indicating a relationship between red coat color in cats and timid behavior. I have to say that after many years' experience handling cats, this correlation way beyond anecdotal, especially with male red coat cats. I 'm not sure if anything has been published by these folks, and would welcome any information if anyone has seen anything published. Thanks. Ruth Strain University of Rhode Island At 12:47 AM 6/24/98 -0400, Ione Smith wrote: >On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Steppe wrote: > >> But >> I've read that calico and tortisshell cats typically are "clowns" or >> have more quirky personalities. > >I've never heard this, but it would sure help to explain my calico! She >seems to be perpetually in heat (although spayed as a kitten)--she LOVES >everybody (humans, cats, dogs, whomever), she is eternally HAPPY. Not a >bad way to live. ;-) > >Ione > >-- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- >-- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- > ================================================== > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html > The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html > for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/stereo.html > the stereotypical behaviors database > ================================================== > I am always willing to learn, however I do not > always like to be taught. -- Winston Churchill > > From: IN%"rstr6415@uriacc.uri.edu" 29-JUN-1998 13:28:40.18 To: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith", IN%"steppe@ou.edu" "Steppe" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: cats:personality and coat color Some very interesting work has been done by R. Ledger and V. O'Farrell at the U. of Edinburgh which was presented in a poster at the 1996 ISAE conference in Guelph Canada indicating a relationship between red coat color in cats and timid behavior. I have to say that after many years' experience handling cats, this correlation way beyond anecdotal, especially with male red coat cats. I 'm not sure if anything has been published by these folks, and would welcome any information if anyone has seen anything published. Thanks. Ruth Strain University of Rhode Island At 12:47 AM 6/24/98 -0400, Ione Smith wrote: >On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Steppe wrote: > >> But >> I've read that calico and tortisshell cats typically are "clowns" or >> have more quirky personalities. > >I've never heard this, but it would sure help to explain my calico! She >seems to be perpetually in heat (although spayed as a kitten)--she LOVES >everybody (humans, cats, dogs, whomever), she is eternally HAPPY. Not a >bad way to live. ;-) > >Ione > >-- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- >-- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- > ================================================== > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html > The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html > for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/stereo.html > the stereotypical behaviors database > ================================================== > I am always willing to learn, however I do not > always like to be taught. -- Winston Churchill > > From: IN%"rstr6415@uriacc.uri.edu" 29-JUN-1998 13:34:10.54 To: IN%"rebecca.ledger@brunel.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: cats: personality and coat colour Rebecca, Have had trouble with my modem and am just catching up - I sent an earlier resonse regarding coat color and have just retrieved this message from you. I have looked forward to further information about this interesting subject and was very glad to see your posting. Thank you. Would still like to know if anything further has been published in this regard. Ruth Strain U. of Rhode Island At 05:13 PM 6/24/98 +0100, Rebecca Ledger wrote: >For my MSc thesis in Edinburgh in 1993, I assessed the behavioural >responses of British Shorthair cats and kittens (29 litters, 84 kittens) to >a variety of stimuli. Kittens were scored as either having a red coat gene >absent or present. Kittens with red coats (including dilute red) made more >escape attempts when handled by an unfamiliar person and struggled for a >longer time compared with kittens that did not have red coats. > >(See Ledger, R.A. & O'Farrell, V. 1996. Factors influencing the reactions >of cats to humans and novel objects. In. Proc. 30th Int. Congress of the >ISAE, Guelph, Canada). > >In 'Domestication: The decline of environmental appreciation', Hemmer gives >an account of the linked mechanisms of melanin and dopamine production in >mammals, which I believe explains these results. Seems like there's >something in the idea that red heads can be more fiery after all! > >Rebecca Ledger > >Brunel University >Egham >Surrey, UK. >TW20 0JZ > > > From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 29-JUN-1998 14:34:45.90 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"jiracka@ids.pl" CC: Subj: RE: Self-licking in a Chinchila Joanna Iracka wrote: > > Hello Everybody, > > a colleague of mine who deals with small mammals and other so-called > exotic animals has a chinchilla that has alopecia dorsally on its > trunk and he has excluded all other reasons but self-licking - it > seems the only explanation. I would guess that a tricyclic > antidepressant or a SSRI could help here but have no idea which drug > could be used or at what dosage? My colleague has tried a calming > herbal preparation used in children and it seems to alleviate the > problem. If somebody has any experience in this species could you > please suggest something? > > Thank you very much > > Joanna Iracka > veterinary surgeon > Poland Before you try drugs, try a change in the environment. Ask yourself does the environment fullfill the necessary behavioural repertoire, i.e. digging material or nest building material, a place to hide, lighting (brightness, schedule etc.), social opportunities ( or not depending on season and species preference) etc. If these are not present try, to the extent possible, to add these environmental enrichment features. Overgrooming is often a response to an inadequate (from the animal's perspective) environment. If you still need to go to drugs you will have more hope of success following environmental changes. Good luck these seem notoriously difficult to treat. Nora Lewis, Veterinarian / Applied Ethologist My job is a strange mixture of pushing pills and changing environments, I choose changing environments, if a can, every time. From: IN%"H.K.WIERENGA@DL.AGRO.NL" "WIERENGA" 30-JUN-1998 03:34:50.13 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: good-bye Dear ISAE-member, After having been active more than 20 years in the area of farm animal behaviour and animal welfare, I felt it would be time for a change. Since a few months I took another position within the Dutch Ministery of Agriculture (were I still play a role in the implementation of the policy of the animal welfare and animal health). Unfortumately this move means that it is not logic anymore to be active within the ISEA-organisation. At first I had the idea to attend the ISAE-meeting in Clermont-Ferrand, but finally it appeared not possible to combine this with other plans. So it will even not be possible to say personally "good-bye" and "thank you" to many of my ISAE-friends. What is left is the possibility to do this by the less personal e-mail. I So: good-bye, thank you very much for the cooperation, friendship and interesting contacts; lots of success with the continuation of your work. And ISAE: you are an interesting organisation which developped from a UK-organisation towards first a European and next a World organisation, I felt lucky to have the opportunity to play a role in this development: you are not fully grown up yet and in fact I think that once you feel "adult"you should make a new move to ensure that you stay young! Good bye and good luck! Herman K. Wierenga From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 30-JUN-1998 06:54:55.30 To: IN%"bradycol@pilot.msu.edu" "Colleen Brady" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Companion Animal Behavior Research Colleen The applied animal behavior program at the University of Georgia might suit her. Our web site is at www.var.vet.uga.edu/behavior/index.htm. If she goes to People, then Students, she can see some of the different things my students work on. Right now, various students in the program are studying dogs, cats, horses and cockatiels. Good luck finding an appropriate match. Sharon Crowell-Davis > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:14:02 -0400 > From: Colleen Brady > Subject: Companion Animal Behavior Research > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Hi, > > We have a student at MSU who is just finishing her M.S. in animal behavior > in horses. She is interested in pursuing a Ph.D. with an emphasis on dogs, > and the human-animal bond. Can anyone suggest programs in the Eastern > United States which may be appropriate? Thank you. > > > Colleen Brady Phone (517) 353-7289 > Department of Animal Science Fax (517) 432-0147 > 1238 Anthony Hall > Michigan State University > E. Lansing, MI 48824 > ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"v.baumans@pobox.ruu.nl" 30-JUN-1998 09:46:37.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: chinchilla Chinchillas like a quiet place,need sand for sandbathing and loose hair spontaneously when they are frightened.The alopecia could be related with these things,so I would check those first,before trying drugs!Good luck. Vera Baumans,D.V.M.PhD Animal welfare officer University of Utrecht PO80.166 3508TD Utrecht The Netherlands v.baumans@pobox.ruu.nl tel:31 302531569 fax:31 302537997 From: IN%"cebradle@psych.adelaide.edu.au" "" 30-JUN-1998 20:43:25.60 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Searching for... Hi All! I'm looking for the e-mail address for Gabriele Gerlach, last known to be at the University of Konstanz. I've tried the University's web sites, but cannot connect, so if anyone can help, it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance, Clare Bradley Psychology Department University of Adelaide Adelaide, South Australia.