From: IN%"Wonderdogs@postoffice.worldnet.att.net" "Lynnie Goodman" 28-FEB-1997 18:01:30.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Socialization/Habituation of Canine Pups Hi! I have the wonderful experience of working with a breeder who has a litter of 3 Mastiff pups that are 2 weeks old. I am interested in all suggestions on how & what we should use so the pups can be well-adjusted and ready for world when they go to their new homes. I have already planned on using environmental tapes, having the primary resting area moved 2-3 times, introducing new & different items and setting up so barriers to encourage problem-solving. What else? Toodles Lynnie Goodman Austin, Tx USA From: IN%"kckissan@alpha.delta.edu" "Kelly Caithlin Kissane" 28-FEB-1997 19:14:08.27 To: IN%"Wonderdogs@postoffice.worldnet.att.net" "Lynnie Goodman" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Socialization/Habituation of Canine Pups Socialization with humans is also very important. take the pups on travels to new homes, let them meet new people. when my golden retriever was a pup, that was what the local breeders recommended so he would grow up people freidnly (though goldens have a rep for being friendly anyway ) I recommend reading the book "How to be your dog's best friend" and others by the Monks of New Skete (usually available in pet stores). The breeders and trainers in my area recommend them hihgly, and I found the book to be dead on when raising my dog. Kelly C. Kissane Grad student Central Michigan University arachnology/animal behavior From: IN%"kckissan@alpha.delta.edu" "Kelly Caithlin Kissane" 28-FEB-1997 19:16:31.82 To: IN%"Wonderdogs@postoffice.worldnet.att.net" "Lynnie Goodman" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Socialization/Habituation of Canine Pups Socialization with humans is also very important. take the pups on travels to new homes, let them meet new people. when my golden retriever was a pup, that was what the local breeders recommended so he would grow up people freidnly (though goldens have a rep for being friendly anyway ) I recommend reading the book "How to be your dog's best friend" and others by the Monks of New Skete (usually available in pet stores). The breeders and trainers in my area recommend them hihgly, and I found the book to be dead on when raising my dog. Kelly C. Kissane Grad student Central Michigan University arachnology/animal behavior From: IN%"ftabs@aurora.alaska.edu" 28-FEB-1997 20:25:00.07 To: IN%"Wonderdogs@postoffice.worldnet.att.net" "Lynnie Goodman" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Socialization/Habituation of Canine Pups Hi. As a relatively new puppy owner (mine's now 5 1/2 months old), I think I can also be of service to you. > Socialization with humans is also very important. take the pups on > travels to new homes, let them meet new people. I agree completely, but want to add that it is good to expose your pups to a variety of humans and types of humans (i.e., adults, teenagers, men, women, babies, toddlers, etc...). And don't forget different environments with different substrates (such as concrete, carpet, linoleum, grass, sand, etc..). > I recommend reading the book "How to be your dog's best friend" and > others by the Monks of New Skete (usually available in pet stores). An excellent book. Their other book, "The Art of Raising a Puppy", is also excellent and walks through the stages of development starting with whelping. This book might also help with what to do when the pups are very young and what not to do until they're older. I've also found that puppy class has helped with the socialization process. Other than her siblings, our pup hadn't been around too many puppies -- especially smaller ones. She learned a lot by going to class (and had fun and got tired out too). Our pup now would rather go get pets from people or play with other dogs than eat! Hope that helps. Good luck. Andrea Andrea Schulman Department of Biology & Wildlife University of Alaska Fairbanks e-mail: ftabs@aurora.alaska.edu web page: http://zorba.uafadm.alaska.edu/iab/schulman/index.html From: IN%"reiter@Uni-Hohenheim.DE" "Dr. Kluas Reiter" 3-MAR-1997 11:33:05.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Graduiertentreffen Hi, ethologisch Interessierte, Wir veranstalten unser drittes Graduiertentreffen zur Methodik der Nutztierethologie. Themen: - Struktur von Verhaltensablaeufen und Analyse - Methoden der direkten Verhaltensbeobachtung - Methoden zur Erfassung des Verhaltens - Nutzung von Verhaltenstests - Uebungen zur Registrierung des Verhaltens bei Rindern, Schweinen und Gefluegel - statistische Tests zur Auswertung von ethologischen Experimenten - Uebungen zur statistischen Auswertung Zielgruppe: Doktoranden und Diplomanden der Agrarwissenschaften und Veterinaermedizin mit ethologischem Thema Termin: 07. Juli bis 12. Juli 1997 Veranstalter: Universitaet Hohenheim Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung Garbenstr. 17 D-70593 Stuttgart Prof. Dr. Bessei Tel: 0711 459 2481 / 3048 Fax: 0711 459 4246 Gruss Dr. K. Reiter From: IN%"abcdog@iinet.net.au" "abcdog" 3-MAR-1997 11:57:49.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Training disabled handler with puppy Please inform me if message on the above subject sent on 2/3/97 was received. Thanyou Rosalie Skewes From: IN%"abcdog@iinet.net.au" "abcdog" 3-MAR-1997 12:26:44.06 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Training disabled handler with puppy Can anyone assist please? I have a client at the moment that has injuries from a work place accident that resembles stroke damage. He is unable to use the left side of his body at all and because of this appears stiff and rigid in his movements. He also has a problem with lack of strength in the right shoulder. It was recommended for therapy (walking) and companionship (he lives alone) that he acquire a dog. He has purchased a Labrador puppy that he loves. The puppy is now 5 months of age, is well cared for and growing rapidly. He is training the pup to walk on the right side of his body using a leather collar with an extra large ring on it for easy lead attachment. We have overcome the problem of the pup rushing the owner at meal times and knocking him over, going in and out of gates without running away, negotiating the front stairs (if absolutely necessary) and getting the pup out of the house if it should race inside past him. I would have liked to recommend a "Halti" or something similar for more control when walking, but this was totally unsuitable, as with one hand (and an active young puppy) he is unable to use the clip. The puppy is improving in it's behaviour, but if it does get a bit too boistrous, all the owner can do is stop, and lift the lead with the right hand and wait for the puppy to sit and then gain control again. Any suggestions? Rosalie Skewes ABC Dog Training & Supplies abcdog@iinet.net.au From: IN%"Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch" "Beat Wechsler" 3-MAR-1997 12:34:53.57 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Post-doc position A 3 year post-doc position is vacant for a research assistant at the Testing Station for Animal Housing Systems of the Swiss Federal Veterinary Office in Taenikon. The applicant should have a PhD in veterinary medicine. Responsibilities: a) Collect, analyse and publish data concerning welfare problems in housing systems for cattle and pigs. b) Supervise diploma and PhD students. c) Coordinate different research projects at the research station in Taenikon. Persons with experience in behavioural research and experimental design are preferred. As part of the research is done on commercial farms, applicants should be able to speak German and (after a few months) to understand Swiss German. Applications are accepted until March 31 1997 or until the position is filled. For further information have a look at: http://www.bvet.admin.ch/d/BVET/Personal/Stellen/taenikon_tierarzt_in.html or contact Beat Wechsler Swiss Federal Veterinary Office Testing Station for Animal Housing Systems CH-8356 Taenikon - Switzerland e-mail Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch FAX: ++41 52 365 11 90 Phone: ++41 52 368 31 71 --------------------------------------------------------------- Beat Wechsler Swiss Federal Veterinary Office Testing Station for Animal Housing Systems CH-8356 Taenikon - Switzerland SMTP: Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch X.400: G=Beat;S=Wechsler;O=fat;A=admin;C=ch FAX: ++41 52 365 11 90 Phone: ++41 52 368 31 31 From: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" 3-MAR-1997 13:09:40.62 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ESVCE-CAPSTG April meeting Hi, I'm new to the applied-ethology network. I just want to inform everybody of the ESVCE and CAPSTG meeting on the 1rst and 2nd of April in Birmingham (UK). Info on http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/birmingham.htm. It is a two days meeting on clinical ethology (companion animals). Dr Joel Dehasse, behaviorist veterinarian, Brussels From: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" 3-MAR-1997 13:13:02.04 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"Wonderdogs@postoffice.worldnet.att.net" "Lynnie Goodman" Subj: RE: Socialization/Habituation of Canine Pups Lynnie Goodman wrote: > I have the wonderful experience of working with a breeder who has a > litter of 3 Mastiff pups that are 2 weeks old. I am interested in all > suggestions on how & what we should use so the pups can be well-adjusted > and ready for world when they go to their new homes. I have already > planned on using environmental tapes, having the primary resting area > moved 2-3 times, introducing new & different items and setting up so > barriers to encourage problem-solving. What else? > Toodles > Lynnie Goodman > Austin, Tx USA Hi, I have worked intensively on this subject. I have loaded a full article on puppy development in my URL at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/puppy.htm It is a long (73 K) article. I am planning to add images soon. Comments are welcome. Dr Joel Dehasse, veterinarian specialized in clinical ethology, Brussels, Belgium - jdehasse@arcadis.be From: IN%"abcdog@iinet.net.au" "abcdog" 3-MAR-1997 13:19:10.93 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Training disabled handler with puppy Can anyone assist please? I have a client at the moment that has injuries from a work place accident that resembles stroke damage. He is unable to use the left side of his body at all and because of this appears stiff and rigid in his movements. He also has a problem with lack of strength in the right shoulder. It was recommended for therapy (walking) and companionship (he lives alone) that he acquire a dog. He has purchased a Labrador puppy that he loves. The puppy is now 5 months of age, is well cared for and growing rapidly. He is training the pup to walk on the right side of his body using a leather collar with an extra large ring on it for easy lead attachment. We have overcome the problem of the pup rushing the owner at meal times and knocking him over, going in and out of gates without running away, negotiating the front stairs (if absolutely necessary) and getting the pup out of the house if it should race inside past him. I would have liked to recommend a "Halti" or something similar for more control when walking, but this was totally unsuitable, as with one hand (and an active young puppy) he is unable to use the clip. The puppy is improving in it's behaviour, but if it does get a bit too boistrous, all the owner can do is stop, and lift the lead with the right hand and wait for the puppy to sit and then gain control again. Any suggestions? Rosalie Skewes ABC Dog Training & Supplies abcdog@iinet.net.au From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 3-MAR-1997 14:20:22.90 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Dolly the Sheep I recently heard a bunch of theriogenologists discussing the recent cloning of a sheep. Not one word did I hear about ethics or morality. Nobody was questioning whether it should or shouldn't have been done. They weren't apparently concerned about whether a Pandora's box had been opened, afraid that evil dictators were about to be reborn, or fearful that the wrath of God is about to descend upon us all because humankind meddled with His, Her or Its Creation. It struck me that if there is any cloning of mammals to be done, these are the people that are going to be doing it. They were just interested in what had been achieved and thinking about how a new technique could be used to help them do their theriogenological stuff. It was quite refreshing! Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 3-MAR-1997 14:43:36.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dolly the Sheep {***Sorry if this message eventually comes through twice. There may be some changes going on with the computer that runs the APPLIED-ETHOLOGY list**** Jon} Anyhow....... I heard a bunch of theriogenologists discussing the recent cloning of a sheep. Not one word did I hear about ethics or morality. Nobody was questioning whether it should or shouldn't have been done. They weren't apparently concerned about whether a Pandora's box had been opened, afraid that evil dictators were about to be reborn, or fearful that the wrath of God is about to descend upon us all because humankind meddled with His, Her or Its Creation. It struck me that if there is any cloning of mammals to be done, these are the people that are going to be doing it. They were just interested in what had been achieved and thinking about how a new technique could be used to help them do their theriogenological stuff. It was quite refreshing! Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"FourPawsTB@aol.com" 3-MAR-1997 15:50:12.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Training disabled handler with puppy Rosalie: I have several clients with disabilities with dogs that they trained. Teach the dog to touch and then track a target (I use a 30" stick) with it's nose. You also need a bridging stimulus (I used a novel word) to tell the puppy it is doing the correct behavior. With successive approximations of the touch->track->walk behaviors, we are usually very successful. Ken McCort Four Paws Animal Behavior Services 320 Eastern Road Doylestown. OH 44230 FourPawsTB@aol.com From: IN%"lafama@pinos.com" 3-MAR-1997 16:23:50.71 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Information, Master of Sport Medicine in the horse Hi I need information about course or career of Sport Medicine and Preventive Medicine in the horse in training From: IN%"lafama@pinos.com" 3-MAR-1997 16:43:11.35 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Address, Direcciones Hi, all Me dirijo a ustedes para por este medio ver la posibilidad de conseguir direcciomnes de e_mail o numeros de telefono o fax de entidades o profesinonales particulares dedicados a la rama de equinos de paises de latinoamerica. La finalidad es hacerles llegar informacion sobre la posible creacion de la Asaciacion Latinoamericana de Especialistas en Equinos Deportivos From: IN%"sdaichman@worldnet.att.net" "Sean Daichman" 3-MAR-1997 17:17:25.22 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re:Introduction Hello Applied Ethology Subscribers! I am new to the applied ethology network and have been asked to briefly introduce my self (otherwise I would choose to lurk). My name is Linda Daichman and I am a graduate (B.S.) of the Biobehavioral Science Program through the Psychology Dept. at the University of Massachusetts. During my undergraduate career I worked with Dr. Celia Moore on maternal contributions to the development of reproductive behavior, and reproductive success. Currently I have become interested in dog behavior/training and am doing an internship with Paws with a Cause, an organization which trains assistance dogs for mobility impaired and hearing impaired people. I have also hooked up with an excellent trainer who kindly allows me to observe him at work (Hi Ken!!) and who has introduced me to the applied ethology network. Hope I haven't bored you too much. I look forward to sharing many interesting ideas in the future. Sincerely, Linda Daichman From: IN%"jkincaid@oncomdis.on.ca" 3-MAR-1997 18:51:03.81 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Dolly the Sheep Jon Watts wrote: > > I recently heard a bunch of theriogenologists discussing the recent > cloning of a sheep. > > Not one word did I hear about ethics or morality. Nobody was questioning > whether it should or shouldn't have been done. They weren't apparently > concerned about whether a Pandora's box had been opened, afraid that evil > dictators were about to be reborn, or fearful that the wrath of God is > about to descend upon us all because humankind meddled with His, Her or > Its Creation. > > It struck me that if there is any cloning of mammals to be done, these are > the people that are going to be doing it. They were just interested in > what had been achieved and thinking about how a new technique could be > used to help them do their theriogenological stuff. > > It was quite refreshing! > > Jon > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jon Watts (___) ) ) > University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( > Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) > and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( > Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) > 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& > Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ > S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ > Canada &^%%#$@ > wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Jon; These particular people may not have been concerned. There are a few voices however who are deeply concerned about the moral and ethical implications of such procedures as you describe. Makes for some provocative and interesting conversation. Take care John From: IN%"Yorkidoll@aol.com" 3-MAR-1997 18:54:35.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Introduction Hi Linda, I will introduce myself to you, my name is Patrice Mulvihill and I am going to be entering my doctorate studies hopefully in Animal Behavior. Although I am interested in teaching humans about our own anthropology and primal behaviors in relation to our fellow primate ancestors, I currently for many years have been the head writer for a national canine magazine writing articles on canine behavior and how parallel their behaviors is to ours. Many humans do not realize this and it needs to be taught. Lots of luck in your studies if you have any questions or comments, please feel free. Patrice From: IN%"Yorkidoll@aol.com" 3-MAR-1997 19:11:03.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Training disabled handler with puppy It seems as though the owner has been correctly training the pup. But in my opinion, if all he wanted was companionship i would have recomended a smaller dog for this gentleman. Being only 5 months old, a puppy is ready to acknowledge commands but attention span is not mature. With proper training patience and time along with repitition, will make for a well adjusted dog. Good Luck Patrice From: IN%"pherosynthese@wanadoo.fr" 4-MAR-1997 02:20:15.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: Birmingham Don't miss the International Veterinary Behaviour Meeting in Birmingham on 1st and 2nd April. Very original topics will be dealt with : systemic therapies, phobias and involutive depression in dogs, the use of disruptive stimuli and cats'facial pheromones. Crucial results to be expected ! Then you will be able to proceed with the general WSAVA programme. From: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" 4-MAR-1997 02:31:46.35 To: IN%"abcdog@iinet.net.au" "Rosalie Skewes" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Training disabled handler with puppy Rosalie Skewes at abcdog wrote: > Can anyone assist please? > I have a client at the moment that has injuries from a work place accident > that resembles stroke damage. He is unable to use the left side of his body > at all and because of this appears stiff and rigid in his movements. He also > has a problem with lack of strength in the right shoulder. It was > recommended for therapy (walking) and companionship (he lives alone) that he > acquire a dog. He has purchased a Labrador puppy that he loves. The puppy > is now 5 months of age, is well cared for and growing rapidly. > He is training the pup to walk on the right side of his body using a leather > collar with an extra large ring on it for easy lead attachment. We have > overcome the problem of the pup rushing the owner at meal times and knocking > him over, going in and out of gates without running away, negotiating the > front stairs (if absolutely necessary) and getting the pup out of the house > if it should race inside past him. > The puppy is improving in it's behaviour, but if it does get a bit too > boistrous, all the owner can do is stop, and lift the lead with the right > hand and wait for the puppy to sit and then gain control again. It seems this puppy is not a puppy anymore (5 months)and is not controlling itself in its fine psychomotoric abilities. It may be a HS-HA syndrome (in French Speaking Europe, we call that HyperSensitive-HyperActivity Syndrome). If it is really this syndrome, the dog may not be helped with an Halti or any device but with proper medication. And it may be urgent to do so. There is a switch in the brain that permits to inhibit the behaviors, to switch it off. This switch is composed of several brain cells and you can increase its power with drugs like carbamazepine, fluoxetine, fluvoxamine, selegiline. With puberty, sexual hormones play with that switch and decrease its sensibility to drugs. Then the problem may not be cured anymore. Add to this medication a therapy that increases the control over the dog: reward the dog only when behaving with good submitted and appeasing manners and postures, never reward it when excited, and so on. I am working with disabled owners and this work fine. Sometimes even if the dog is not suffering from a behavioral pathology, you may help training it with regulatory medication. Hope this helps. Dr Joel Dehasse, veterinarian specialised in clinical ethology, Brussels jdehasse@arcadis.be http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/ From: IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl" 4-MAR-1997 03:52:14.20 To: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" CC: IN%"abcdog@iinet.net.au" "Rosalie Skewes", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Training disabled handler with puppy There is nothing I can see in your description of the pups behaviour which indicates it is in any way "pathological". A 5 month old lab pup will normally be boisterous, and I find it very difficult to find any ethical justification for the use of drugs in this case. The problem lies with teaching the handicapped handler how to handle and teach the dog, and possibley the teacher of them both. With correct teaching a normal pup of this age, which this pup appears to be, is quite capable of learning to behave appropriately at appropriate times, provided that he has enough exersise and time to play , social contact with others and perform the behaviours in his repertorie which cause no suffering to others. How he is kept, etc must be taken into account and corrected, as well as how he is being taught and handled before any suggestion for the use of drugs should be considered. As an animal behaviour consultant of 25 years standing, I am horrified at the frequent unethical recommended use of drugs to compensate for inabilities, ignorance or just lack fo thought from those now giving advise and helping. The dog also has rights and needs, he is not a tool for the use of a human, normal or handicapped. If you would like further advise and help with how to develop appropriate handling and teaching strategies please let me know. On Tue, 04 Mar 1997 09:29:39 +0100 Dehasse Joel wrote: > From: Dehasse Joel > Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 09:29:39 +0100 > Subject: Re: Training disabled handler with puppy > To: Rosalie Skewes > Cc: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Rosalie Skewes at abcdog wrote: > > Can anyone assist please? > > I have a client at the moment that has injuries from a work place accident > > that resembles stroke damage. He is unable to use the left side of his body > > at all and because of this appears stiff and rigid in his movements. He also > > has a problem with lack of strength in the right shoulder. It was > > recommended for therapy (walking) and companionship (he lives alone) that he > > acquire a dog. He has purchased a Labrador puppy that he loves. The puppy > > is now 5 months of age, is well cared for and growing rapidly. > > > He is training the pup to walk on the right side of his body using a leather > > collar with an extra large ring on it for easy lead attachment. We have > > overcome the problem of the pup rushing the owner at meal times and knocking > > him over, going in and out of gates without running away, negotiating the > > front stairs (if absolutely necessary) and getting the pup out of the house > > if it should race inside past him. > > The puppy is improving in it's behaviour, but if it does get a bit too > > boistrous, all the owner can do is stop, and lift the lead with the right > > hand and wait for the puppy to sit and then gain control again. > > It seems this puppy is not a puppy anymore (5 months)and is not > controlling itself in its fine psychomotoric abilities. It may be a > HS-HA syndrome (in French Speaking Europe, we call that > HyperSensitive-HyperActivity Syndrome). If it is really this syndrome, > the dog may not be helped with an Halti or any device but with proper > medication. And it may be urgent to do so. There is a switch in the > brain that permits to inhibit the behaviors, to switch it off. This > switch is composed of several brain cells and you can increase its power > with drugs like carbamazepine, fluoxetine, fluvoxamine, selegiline. With > puberty, sexual hormones play with that switch and decrease its > sensibility to drugs. Then the problem may not be cured anymore. > Add to this medication a therapy that increases the control over the > dog: reward the dog only when behaving with good submitted and appeasing > manners and postures, never reward it when excited, and so on. > I am working with disabled owners and this work fine. > Sometimes even if the dog is not suffering from a behavioral pathology, > you may help training it with regulatory medication. > Hope this helps. > Dr Joel Dehasse, veterinarian specialised in clinical ethology, Brussels > jdehasse@arcadis.be > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/ ************************************************************ Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 *************************************************************** From: IN%"lynnfrances@msn.com" "lynn crook" 4-MAR-1997 05:34:26.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Training disabled handler with puppy > is now 5 months of age, is well cared for and growing rapidly.n. <> When does a dog become a dog and cease to be a puppy???? In my book 5mths is still a pup and the behaviour is age appropriate, especially for a breed which matures slowly, which labs do. I think I would take the problems one at a time and work on each one until it is sorted before moving on, otherwise the owner is going to end up confused and hasselled. Have you tried teaching it the "off" command using titbits? The titbit is given to the dog a few times by hand and then is offered but retained and the dog is told "off" firmly----very firmly if its a lab!! This is repeated several times then the word is used when the dog is jumping up etc. It can work like magic. Maybe Robin Walker could explain why!!! I think is has something to do with a chemical released in the brain. good luck, lynn and 8 dogs who all still think they are pups!!!!!!!!!!! From: IN%"kershaw_canine_edu@compuserve.com" "Elizabeth Kershaw" 4-MAR-1997 05:36:42.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "APPLIED-ETHOLOGY" CC: Subj: RE: Training disabled handler with puppy >>>There is nothing I can see in your description of the pups behaviour which indicates it is in any way "pathological". A 5 month old lab pup will normally be boisterous, and I find it very difficult to find any ethical justification for the use of drugs in this case. The problem lies with teaching the handicapped handler how to handle and teach the dog, and possibley the teacher of them both. <<<<< I could not agree more with the writer. This is surely a case of a 5 month old lab being a normal 5 month old lab. It is likely to respond well to positive training methods using the principles of operant conditioning. Is your friend able to use either a clicker or a verbal conditioned reinforcer? If so you are away and running with this dog. Elizabeth Kershaw Canine Education, West Berkshire, UK From: IN%"lafama@pinos.com" 4-MAR-1997 06:43:04.04 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Address, Direcciones LA>Hi, all LA>Me dirijo a ustedes para por este medio ver la posibilidad de conseguir LA>direcciomnes de e_mail o numeros de telefono o fax de entidades o LA>profesinonales particulares dedicados a la rama de equinos de paises de LA>latinoamerica. LA>La finalidad es hacerles llegar informacion sobre la posible creacion LA>de la Asaciacion Latinoamericana de Especialistas en Equinos Deportivos Hi to everybody I am interested in receiving e-mail addresses and/or telephone/fax numbers of profesional entities or individuals specialized in sports horses in Latinamerican countries. The purpose of it is to send them information on the posibility of creating a new asociation : Asociación Latinoamericana de Especialistas en Equinos Deportivos (Latinamerican Asociation of Sports Horses Specialists) Thank you for your interest, From: IN%"BartletD@dir6.nichd.nih.gov" "Bartlett, Doreen" 4-MAR-1997 07:00:51.15 To: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" "jdehasse@arcadis.be", IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl" CC: IN%"abcdog@iinet.net.au" "Rosalie Skewes", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Training disabled handler with puppy I agree! The puppy sounds quite normal and healthy, and would be a handful for even a healthy, sound individual, but oh so worth it in the long run!!!! ---------- From: room 016 wsl[SMTP:M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, 4 March 1997 4:52 AM To: jdehasse@arcadis.be Cc: Rosalie Skewes; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Training disabled handler with puppy There is nothing I can see in your description of the pups behaviour which indicates it is in any way "pathological". A 5 month old lab pup will normally be boisterous, and I find it very difficult to find any ethical justification for the use of drugs in this case. The problem lies with teaching the handicapped handler how to handle and teach the dog, and possibley the teacher of them both. With correct teaching a normal pup of this age, which this pup appears to be, is quite capable of learning to behave appropriately at appropriate times, provided that he has enough exersise and time to play , social contact with others and perform the behaviours in his repertorie which cause no suffering to others. How he is kept, etc must be taken into account and corrected, as well as how he is being taught and handled before any suggestion for the use of drugs should be considered. As an animal behaviour consultant of 25 years standing, I am horrified at the frequent unethical recommended use of drugs to compensate for inabilities, ignorance or just lack fo thought from those now giving advise and helping. The dog also has rights and needs, he is not a tool for the use of a human, normal or handicapped. If you would like further advise and help with how to develop appropriate handling and teaching strategies please let me know. On Tue, 04 Mar 1997 09:29:39 +0100 Dehasse Joel wrote: > From: Dehasse Joel > Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 09:29:39 +0100 > Subject: Re: Training disabled handler with puppy > To: Rosalie Skewes > Cc: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Rosalie Skewes at abcdog wrote: > > Can anyone assist please? > > I have a client at the moment that has injuries from a work place accident > > that resembles stroke damage. He is unable to use the left side of his body > > at all and because of this appears stiff and rigid in his movements. He also > > has a problem with lack of strength in the right shoulder. It was > > recommended for therapy (walking) and companionship (he lives alone) that he > > acquire a dog. He has purchased a Labrador puppy that he loves. The puppy > > is now 5 months of age, is well cared for and growing rapidly. > > > He is training the pup to walk on the right side of his body using a leather > > collar with an extra large ring on it for easy lead attachment. We have > > overcome the problem of the pup rushing the owner at meal times and knocking > > him over, going in and out of gates without running away, negotiating the > > front stairs (if absolutely necessary) and getting the pup out of the house > > if it should race inside past him. > > The puppy is improving in it's behaviour, but if it does get a bit too > > boistrous, all the owner can do is stop, and lift the lead with the right > > hand and wait for the puppy to sit and then gain control again. > > It seems this puppy is not a puppy anymore (5 months)and is not > controlling itself in its fine psychomotoric abilities. It may be a > HS-HA syndrome (in French Speaking Europe, we call that > HyperSensitive-HyperActivity Syndrome). If it is really this syndrome, > the dog may not be helped with an Halti or any device but with proper > medication. And it may be urgent to do so. There is a switch in the > brain that permits to inhibit the behaviors, to switch it off. This > switch is composed of several brain cells and you can increase its power > with drugs like carbamazepine, fluoxetine, fluvoxamine, selegiline. With > puberty, sexual hormones play with that switch and decrease its > sensibility to drugs. Then the problem may not be cured anymore. > Add to this medication a therapy that increases the control over the > dog: reward the dog only when behaving with good submitted and appeasing > manners and postures, never reward it when excited, and so on. > I am working with disabled owners and this work fine. > Sometimes even if the dog is not suffering from a behavioral pathology, > you may help training it with regulatory medication. > Hope this helps. > Dr Joel Dehasse, veterinarian specialised in clinical ethology, Brussels > jdehasse@arcadis.be > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/ ************************************************************ Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 *************************************************************** From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 4-MAR-1997 07:45:29.54 To: IN%"lynnfrances@msn.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: View Halloo! >> is now 5 months of age, is well cared for and growing rapidly.n. > ><> > > >When does a dog become a dog and cease to be a puppy???? In my book 5mths is >still a pup and the behaviour is age appropriate, especially for a breed which >matures slowly, which labs do. >I think I would take the problems one at a time and work on each one until it >is sorted before moving on, otherwise the owner is going to end up confused >and hasselled. Have you tried teaching it the "off" command using titbits? The >titbit is given to the dog a few times by hand and then is offered but >retained and the dog is told "off" firmly----very firmly if its a lab!! This >is repeated several times then the word is used when the dog is jumping up >etc. It can work like magic. Maybe Robin Walker could explain why!!! I think >is has something to do with a chemical released in the brain. >good luck, lynn and 8 dogs who all still think they are pups!!!!!!!!!!! > Someone call my name? By the time I growled out of my basket the "lapin" was covered in hornets! As the honorary veterinaire to Support Dogs I humbly submit that a puppy is indeed a puppy and simply must be allowed to do puppy things as well as be trained. The original post describes what sounds like splendid progress given the age. I really think that HS-HA or AD-HD (Attention deficit-Hyperactivity Disorder) is what would be assessed as plain frustration in a normally boisterous puppy (or child). Medications of the type described would not be given to such a puppy under any circumstances. Robin Walker From: IN%"sgadbois@is2.dal.ca" "Simon Gadbois" 4-MAR-1997 08:56:51.57 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: View Halloo! Dr. Walker, I just got your posting. I work with Dr. John Fentress on wolf social endocrinology and also did studies with him on the sequencing of actions and movements in canids (foxes, coyotes, wolves) at the Canadian Centre for Wolf Research. We are very interested to do further research (with a program I created) on ADHD in kids (yes, humans!) and also people with movement disorders (John also works a lot with neurologically mutant mice). I just realized I was not aware of an ADHD label for dogs (although I use it often, jokingly, for a friends' s samoyed) and was wondering if you could direct me towards references on this topic. Thank you very much, Simon Simon Gadbois Department of Psychology Life Sciences Centre Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada, B3H 4J1 sgadbois@is2.dal.ca 902-494-3603 (Fentress's lab) 902-494-3370 (Moger's lab) 902-494-6585 (fax) 902-857-9206 (res) From: IN%"di-bushong@tamu.edu" "Diana Bushong" 4-MAR-1997 09:29:22.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Training disabled handler with puppy Hi all, I usually just lurk in the background and enjoy the discussions, but this time I could not let this particular discussion pass without a comment. I am gratified that others have already made comments about the use of "drugs" to control this puppy. And surely he is still a puppy at 5 months. Now I am well aware of the fact that there are physiological brain chemical disorders that can lead to all sorts of problems as Dr Joel Dehasse suggests. And maybe he is not advising the use of drug intervention but only giving more information about what could possibly be the problem. And maybe we are all just a little hypersensitive ourselves about using drug intervention. However, he did make the comment about "It seems this puppy is not a puppy anymore (5 months)and is not controlling itself in its fine psychomotoric abilities." My experience--limited though it may be--is that dogs are not truly mature adults until at least 3 years old if at that age. My word, when are humans truly mature and in control of themselves? Working with undergraduates and graduate students alike I am often made aware of their inability to sometimes control their boisterous enthusiasm, but as annoying as it may be at times I would never suggest "drugs" to get them under control--who would (seriously anyway)? However, I would also not suggest that that this puppy should not be trained, only that its own personality and development should be taken into consideration. Even in its "natural" (I hope using the "N" word will not start a new discussion on its definition) social environment, it would be learning its social boundaries and rules, but also it would be playing and being allowed its boisterous time. One thing I am surprised that no one suggested is that the size of the dog may have been inappropriate for the person in question. A smaller breed might have been a better choice as a smaller dog is less likely to be able to "bowl" over an adult human and is somewhat more controllable on a lead--always with proper training. Of course, there is the problem of bending over to give a smaller dog tactile reinforcement; however, I have had a back injury myself and have a smaller (32 lbs) chow-cross dog. What I have used on those occasions when I am unable to bend to reward with praise is a walking stick, very gently applied in a rubbing manner along the side of the dog (plus words of great praise). She seems to appreciate the caress even though it is not with my hand directly. The stick also helped me to give added guidance by using it to press LIGHTLY to the dog's side to bring her in closer when she was supposed to be heeling (yanking on a lead was not a possibility in my back condition). Of course, this dog is 7 years old now and has had both years of training and years of affection. I guess my final word is that we should not forget that dogs are not machines. We can not slip in new and better CPU chips or plug and play cards (drugs) and get the perfect results we want. Gentle reprogramming often is what is necessary not screw drivers and mallets to bend the hardware to our needs. Well my soap box time for this month is up and one of the grad students' computers needs some GENTLE reprogramming (its being a bit boisterous in its refusal to do the required data analysis). At 09:29 AM 3/4/97 +0100, you wrote: >Rosalie Skewes at abcdog wrote: >> Can anyone assist please? >> I have a client at the moment that has injuries from a work place accident >> that resembles stroke damage. He is unable to use the left side of his body >> at all and because of this appears stiff and rigid in his movements. He also >> has a problem with lack of strength in the right shoulder. It was >> recommended for therapy (walking) and companionship (he lives alone) that he >> acquire a dog. He has purchased a Labrador puppy that he loves. The puppy >> is now 5 months of age, is well cared for and growing rapidly. > >> He is training the pup to walk on the right side of his body using a leather >> collar with an extra large ring on it for easy lead attachment. We have >> overcome the problem of the pup rushing the owner at meal times and knocking >> him over, going in and out of gates without running away, negotiating the >> front stairs (if absolutely necessary) and getting the pup out of the house >> if it should race inside past him. >> The puppy is improving in it's behaviour, but if it does get a bit too >> boistrous, all the owner can do is stop, and lift the lead with the right >> hand and wait for the puppy to sit and then gain control again. > >It seems this puppy is not a puppy anymore (5 months)and is not >controlling itself in its fine psychomotoric abilities. It may be a >HS-HA syndrome (in French Speaking Europe, we call that >HyperSensitive-HyperActivity Syndrome). If it is really this syndrome, >the dog may not be helped with an Halti or any device but with proper >medication. And it may be urgent to do so. There is a switch in the >brain that permits to inhibit the behaviors, to switch it off. This >switch is composed of several brain cells and you can increase its power >with drugs like carbamazepine, fluoxetine, fluvoxamine, selegiline. With >puberty, sexual hormones play with that switch and decrease its >sensibility to drugs. Then the problem may not be cured anymore. >Add to this medication a therapy that increases the control over the >dog: reward the dog only when behaving with good submitted and appeasing >manners and postures, never reward it when excited, and so on. >I am working with disabled owners and this work fine. >Sometimes even if the dog is not suffering from a behavioral pathology, >you may help training it with regulatory medication. >Hope this helps. >Dr Joel Dehasse, veterinarian specialised in clinical ethology, Brussels >jdehasse@arcadis.be >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/ > Diana Bushong Texas A&M University Department of Animal Science 243 Kleberg Center MS2471 College Station, TX 77843-2471 email: di-bushong@tamu.edu phone: 409-845-9075 fax: 409-845-5292 From: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" 4-MAR-1997 10:17:52.75 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: boisterous 5 months labrador Hi everybody, It seems my proposal has given an ethical heart-attack or headache to a lot of good people. So explanations may be useful. 1- I have not examined the dog, so I'm not proposing a diagnosis but only to think about it. In my dictionary, boisterous is boisterous and a bit similar to hyperactive (but I'm not English-speaking so I may make errors). 2- Medication in young dogs suffering from HS-HA syndrome is usefull: the spontaneous recovery is rare and a lot of these dogs become anxious or hyperaggressive. 3- Why do you find it unethical to give psychotropic medication to a young dog? Did anyone of the drugs detractor try the drugs I mentioned before? And what were the results? 4- A drug is not used alone in the HS-HA syndrome, but in conjunction with training or a therapy in which the dog learns self-control. 5- Here are the diagnosis criteria for the HS-HA syndrome: - lack of control (of the biting, the motoric activity) in a puppy olden than 3 months of age or excessive impulsivity: bitings, scratchings during play, hustle, without adaptation to the people present (kids, older people, ...) - difficulties to stop an activity. The pup is always on the go, to eat, to play, to move, to answer any stimulus - the pup reacts to stimuli that are constant in its surrounding (lack of habituation process, hypersensitivity). Accessory signs: - reduction of the sleep duration: less than 10 hours in a pup or 8 hours in an adult. (I'm not speeking about lying down with the eyes open or closed, but of real sleep) - irritation aggression (constraint, coercitive training, ...) Before howling at me again, I would like some comments on my article on puppy development at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/puppy.htm Thanks for your time. Dr Joel Dehasse, behaviorist veterinarian (or whatever you call the veterinarian who's only job is to treat behavioral problems and pathologies in dogs and cats - I call that clinical ethology). From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 4-MAR-1997 10:35:26.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Need List of Behaviour Websites Dear All, I would like to make a directory or list of websites that have information pertaining to animal behaviour. The list is not intended to be slanted towards a specific species or a specific behavioural component. Hopefully, the list would include websites on behaviour of zoo or captive animals, behaviour of domestic food animals, laboratory animals, and companion animals. The topics could include any behaviour such as stereotypies, maternal behaviour, aggressive behaviour, operant conditioning, training, use of drugs to modify behaviour, etc., etc. I would like to provide this list to our veterinary students. Unfortunately most of our graduating veterinary students will have a better chance of gaining access to the web and e-mail than they will a good library. Therefore, I believe the web will be a useful tool for our veterinarians out in rural practices and I would like to provide our graduating students with a useful lists of web sites. If you have a web site or know of a web site that has information on animal behaviour, would you please send me the addresses? Please send them directly to me and NOT to the entire applied-ethology group. When I have a complete list (within a week or two?) I will post the entire directory to the applied-ethology in a single message. Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to your responses. Joe ======================== Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"LTEPPER@southampton.liunet.edu" "LOIS M. TEPPER" 4-MAR-1997 11:11:25.24 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Planaria I am trying to keep planaria alive so that they can be used in classical conditioning demonstrations. Would appreciate advice on the best way to feed and maintain them. Thanks. Dr. Lois Tepper From: IN%"heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk" "Sarah Heath" 4-MAR-1997 16:09:51.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: International Veterinary Behaviour Meeting Thank you to those of you who have drawn attention to the International Veterinary Behaviour Meeting to be held at The Council House in Birmingham UK on April 1 and April 2. Anyone wishing to register to attend the meeting should contact Pauline Appleby, Conference Co-ordinator on pauline@petbcent.demon.co.uk Tel 44 1386 750534 Fax 44 1386 750615 The provisional programme for the meeting is as follows: International Veterinary Behaviour Meeting Provisional Programme Day 1: Tuesday April 1st 1997 08.30 - 09.30 Registration & coffee 09.30 - 09.45 Conceptualising behaviour problems- separating a dog's bite from it's owner's problem D.S. Mills De Montfort University, UK 09.45 - 10.00 Behaviour Therapy Techniques - a need for critical evaluation D.L.Appleby, Pershore, UK, S.E. Heath, Brackley, UK 10.00 - 10.15 Terminology in behavioural medicine diagnosis, necessary and sufficient conditions and mechanisms K.L. Overall, University of Pennsylvania, USA 10.15 - 10.30 Coffee 10.30 - 11.10 Being sensitive to the sensitive period S.D. Webster, University of Oxford, UK 11.10 - 11.50 Kitty kindy K.Seksel, Seaforth Vet. Hospital, Australia 11.50 - 12.30 Behaviour changes in ageing dogs: A demographic analysis B.L. Hart et al. University of California, Davis, USA 12.30 - 12.45 Involutive depression in ageing dogs M. Bourdin, Paris, France 12.45 - 13.00 The use of nicergoline in the reversal of behaviour changes due to aging in dogs: A multi-centre clinical field trial J. Penaliggon, Rhone Merieux Ltd, UK 13.00 - 13.15 Evaluation of the efficacy of selegiline hydrochloride in treating behavioural disorders of emotional origin in dogs. T.Pobel MSc DVM, Sanofi Animal Health, France 13.15 - 14.30 Break for lunch and poster viewing 14.30 - 15.10 The role of paradoxical interspecific communication in the development of family-pack hierarchical instabilities J. Dehasse, Brussels, Belgium 15.10 - 15.25 Dominance aggression in young female dogs: What does this suggest about the heterogeneity of the disorder K.L.Overall, A.D. Beebe, University of Pennsylvania, USA 15.25 - 16.05 Usefulness of the F4 synthetic pheromone for preventing intra specific aggression in poorly socialised cats P. Pageat, Y. Tessier, Pherosynthese, France 16.05 - 16.30 Tea 16.30 - 17.15 A proposed course structure for veterinary ethology J. Odendaal, University of Pretoria, RSA 17.15 - 17.30 Inappropriate vocalisation in cats K.Seksel, Seaforth Vet Hospital, Australia 17.30 - 17.45 A procedure for assessing human-companion animal compatibility C.Budge et al, Massey University, New Zealand 17.45 - 18.00 A validated test to assess the temperament of dogs R.Ledger, M. Baxter, Brunel University, UK 18.00 - 18.15 A survey to measure the success of rescue dog placement at a rehoming centre where a full behaviour service is offered G.P.Bailey et al, The Blue Cross, UK 18.30 - 20.00 CABSTG AGM followed by ESVCE AGM 20.30 Conference Dinner (To be confirmed) International Veterinary Behaviour Meeting Provisional Programme Day 2: Wednesday April 2nd 1997 08.00 - 08.30 Registration for delegates who did not attend Day 1 08.30 - 09.10 Phobias in dogs: from diagnosis to treatment G.Muller, Clinique veterinaire de Lille St Maurice, France 09.10 - 09.25 F4 synthetic pheromone: a means to enable handling of cats with phobia of the veterinarian during consultation P. Pageat, Y. Tessier, Pherosynthese, France 09.25 - 10.05 Fear motivating aggression in Golden Retrievers: No correlation with inbreeding B.W. Knol et al. Utrecht University, The Netherlands 10.05 - 10.35 Coffee 10.35 - 10.50 Anxiety in cats J. Dehasse, Brussels, Belgium 10.50 - 11.30 Feline psychogenic alopecia and behavioural disorders M. Bourdin, Paris, France 11.30 - 12.00 Behavioural and environmental factors associated with elimination behaviour problems in cats : a retrospective study. D.F. Horwitz, St Louis, Missouri, USA 12.00 - 12.15 Separation anxiety in pet dogs J. Damkjer Lund, M.C. Jorgegensen, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Denmark 12.15 - 12.45 Treatment of separation related anxiety in dogs with clomipramine B.Simpson, Southern Pines, North Carolina, USA 12.45 - 13.30 Break for lunch and poster viewing 13.30 - 15.00 WORKSHOPS 15.00 - 15.20 Report back from Workshops 15.20 - 15.50 Tea 15.50 - 16.45 The effects of ffod and restricted exercise on behaviour problems in dogs G. Anderson, S. Mariner, Canine Academy, RSA 16.30 - 16.45 Pharmacological treatment of feather picking in pet birds P.A. Mertens, Ludwig-Maximillians-University, Germany 16.45 - 17.00 Disruptive stimulus: Definition and application in behaviour therapy P.Pageat, Y. Tessier, Pherosynthese, France 17.00 - 17.15 Use of family therapy methods in management of behaviour troubles C. Beata, Toulon, France 17.15 - 17.30 Emotional experiences of dog owners facing disciplining situations with dogs J. Ben-Michael, University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands 17.30 - 17.45 The rabbit - an exotic pet with behaviour problems A. McBride, University of Southampton, S. Wickens, Merrits Wood College, UK 17.45 - 18.00 Behaviour enrichment for horses: the effect of a foraging device (the "Equiball ) on the performance of stereotypic behaviour in the stabled horse J.V. Henderson et al, University of Edinburgh, UK 18.00 Close of conference WORKSHOPS Wednesday April 2nd 1997 13.30 - 15.00 Please note that both workshops will be running during this time so delegates can choose to attend A OR B A) The welfare implications of animal behaviour therapy - Sponsored by Sanofi Animal Health Chaired by R.Ewbank, London. UK What about Welfare? Welfare considerations relevant to behaviour modification in domestic animals J.J.Cooper, D.S. Mills B) The diagnostic dilemma - approaches to dealing with behavioural problems - Sponsored by Novartis Animal Health Chaired by V.Voith, Dayton, Ohio. USA Annual General Meetings Please note that the AGM's of both CABTSG and ESVCE will be held on the evening of April 1 1997 in the Banqueting Suite From: IN%"Kate.Littin.1@uni.massey.ac.nz" "Kate Littin" 4-MAR-1997 22:29:51.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Jon, John and Dolly Hi all, following on from John's reply to Jon: i was wondering if anyone else finds the idea of scientists working without (or maybe largely without) any ethical framework, bases or thoughts (as in the designers of Dolly, or the theriogenolgists) to be somewhat 'unpalatable'. This discussion can perhaps be separated from another regrding solely the ethics of cloning per se. However, perhaps the lack of ethical consideration in general has enabled the creation of such apparent 'ethical nightmares' as cloning. As masterate and doctoral students studying physiology and anatomy, we often discuss the relative importance of ethical considerations within our own field or within science in general and opinions are not surprisingly still varied. We have in fact all been advised to read an ANZCCART publication (V. Monamy (1996) Animal Experimentation: A Student Guide to Balancing the Issues) in an endeavour to increase our awareness of the importance of ethical consideration of research issues. I don't know whether anyone is interested in a discussion on this topic, but it may make a change from dog behaviour (don't get me wrong, i love dogs and enjoy the sharing of information) and seems to be rather a topical subject at the minute. Regards, Kate. ================================== = Kate Littin = = Dept. Physiology & Anatomy = = Massey University = = Private Bag = = Palmerston North = = New Zealand (Aotearoa) = = ph +64 06 3504481 = = Kate.Littin.1@uni.massey.ac.nz = ================================== From: IN%"kjohnson@numbat.murdoch.edu.au" 5-MAR-1997 01:11:04.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Ethics & Science Kate Littin's proposal to turn the group discussion to Ethics for a while would suit me well. As coordinator of a study unit (taken by all veterinary and some biology students) on the Scientific and Ethical Bases of Animal Welfare, I am always looking for answers to life's unanswerable questions. As ethologists, biologists, and scientists, I believe we have a responsibility to consider the social impact of our teaching and research. Attempts to make progress in this area may seem slow, but our introspection and consequent actions do eventually lead to change; bear baiting is now uncommon, experiments are now scrutinized before they are performed, we do know some of the things that distress animals. There are several reasons for continuing to discuss even such a slowly rewarding topic. First, dangers of serious misjudgement arise when society is offered an advance in technology (are the newly demonstrated skills in cloning animals a cause for celebration, or the biological equivalent of the Manhattan project ?). Second, from the mix of contributions coming to the animal ethics debate, unsettling confusions arise (biologists regard pain is essential for survival, some philosophers have described it as evil). Finally, it is too easy to neglect ethics when society is turbulent and competitive (i.e. always). Set the quiz rolling, Kate. Ken Johnson Ken Johnson School of Veterinary Studies Murdoch University. Western Australia. 6150 Phone: (09) 360 2257 Fax: (09) 310 4144 From: IN%"mi095@mluri.sari.ac.uk" 5-MAR-1997 04:02:59.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Position announcment Dear all, I would like to bring the following position announcement to your attention. Thank you. MACAULAY LAND USE RESEARCH INSTITUTE ECOLOGY & ANIMAL SCIENCE GROUP ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR SCIENTIST Three-year appointment An animal behaviour scientist is required to conduct research on motivation in large ruminant herbivores. The successful applicant will join a team of researchers studying the foraging and social behaviour of grazing cattle, sheep, goats and red deer. He/she will be expected to develop innovative methodologies for measuring aspects of motivation in grazing ruminants and then to apply those methodologies to study their behavioural priorities. Applicants should possess a first or upper second class honours degree in a Biological Science or equivalent qualification and at least two years relevant post- graduate experience, which may have led to a post-graduate degree. The post, which is at the Post-Doctoral Scientist grade (Band 6), will be for three years in the first instance. Starting salary, depending upon qualifications and experience, will be normally within the range stlg13,951 - stlg19,425 per annum (performance related to a maximum of stlg24,900). There is a non-contributory Superannuation Scheme and MLURI is an Equal Opportunities Employer. MLURI receives funding from the Scottish Office Agriculture, Environment and Fisheries Department. Further particulars and application forms can be obtained from Personnel Administration, The Macaulay Land Use Research Institute, Craigiebuckler, Aberdeen, AB15 8QH, UK. Tel [44] (0) 1224-318611, Fax [44] (0) 1224-311556, Email e.cockburn@mluri.sari.ac.uk, to whom completed application forms must be returned by 21 March 1997. Quote Ref. MA8/97 From: IN%"pkabai@ns.univet.hu" "Kabai Peter" 5-MAR-1997 04:56:50.56 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Congress Announcement, DBC'98 (fwd) If you are interested in this Congress, please respond to: Deer Conference 1998 > > ********************************************* > *****FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT ON DBC '98*********** > ********************************************* > > > > THE 4TH DEER BIOLOGY CONGRESS WILL BE HELD IN HUNGARY, EUROPE, > > JUNE 30 - JULY 4, 1998 > > The aim of the Congress is to bring together research scientists, > wildlife management specialists, deer farmers and zoo biologists > and facilitate the communication and collaboration among experts > of the various fields. > > So far 4 main topics are planned to be discussed from the > viewpoint of both ecology and wildlife/game/farm/zoo management. > > 1) Ecologically sound management: the ecology, conservation and > management of deer > > 2) Genetics and reproduction: latest methods in studying > natural populations, conserving and identifying deer species-subspecies, as well as optimizing production in farms > > 3) Feeding strategies and nutrition: habitat use and diet of natural > populations, nutritional needs of zoo and farmed deer > > 4) Health and disease: welfare, stress, condition, parasites and > diseases of natural and farmed deer, diagnostics and hygiene. > > > So far workshops are planned on ANTLER PHYSIOLOGY, FARM PRODUCTION, > WELFARE, CONSERVATION, ZOO-DEER, > and we'd like to include topics you might suggest. > > There will be a day-long field trip organized as well as an exhibition > of research and farm equipment/materials. > > > Please, note that the DBC will be shortly followed by the > World Deer Farming Congress in Ireland, so if you happen be an Extraterrestrial it should be convenient for you to hop over to Ireland after the DBC before you leave planet Earth. > > > > Leave us a note if you plan to participate in DBC '98. Please, include your name, field of interest and your suggestions on topics for plenary presentations and workshops. > > Please forward this message to colleagues who might be interested in DBC. > > No access to e-mail? > You can write to us: Deer Biology Congress > (Peter Kabai) > Univ. Vet. Sci. > H-1400 Bp. POBox 2 > HUNGARY From: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 5-MAR-1997 06:36:46.84 To: IN%"Kate.Littin.1@uni.massey.ac.nz" "Kate Littin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Jon, John and Dolly Dear Kate et al. > following on from John's reply to Jon: i was wondering if anyone else finds > the idea of scientists working without (or maybe largely without) any > ethical framework, bases or thoughts (as in the designers of Dolly, or the > theriogenolgists) to be somewhat 'unpalatable'. This is open to misinterpretation. Jon's theriogenologists did appear to be having a discussion without reference to ethics. Ian Wilmut, who produced Dolly (I'm not sure that 'designer' is a very helpful word), has considerable interest in ethics. He has been part of the same discussion group on ethics of genetic engineering as myself for two years, and discusses ethics in every interview he gives. Whether he should have done that experiment or not is a very complex issue, but you can not just conclude from the fact that he did it that he does not consider ethics. Nevertheless, he could still be said to be 'working largely without an ethical framework', because the decision-making process about whether such an experiment should be done (which in the UK involves the Home Office and the Health and Safety Executive) does not have any mechanism to consider all the ethical issues. That raises the question of how we make the broad decisions in using animals (and indeed in other important fields such as the environment) - as opposed to case-by-case consideration. I am increasingly convinced that we need permanent committees of some kind, publicly accountable, to consider such issues. I held a seminar with our MSc students yesterday in which we discussed the ethics of having a dairy farm stocked with cloned cows (advantages and disadvantages to humans and to animals, and intrinsic objections). They came up with some very interesting issues - for example, could such animals learn to recognise each other individually? What would be the effects on social behaviour? - and concluded that it would be ethically unacceptable. Mike From: IN%"Paul.Koene@ETHO.VH.WAU.NL" "paul koene" 5-MAR-1997 06:49:33.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ...no subject... Dear All, The Department of Husbandry of the Agricultural University of Wageningen has started a literature research on the (im)possibilities of capture, rear, rehabilitation and release of (orphaned) wild foxes (Vulpes vulpes, L.). The goal is to investigate the ethological possibilities and limitations for rearing and subsequent release of red foxes. Which institute, society or individual has any experience with the capture-mark-recapture, rehabilitation, rearing or release of (orphaned) wild foxes (Vulpes vulpes L.)? Please mail directly to KATHALIJNE.VISSER@ETHO.VH.WAU.NL or respond to me. Thanks for your cooperation and we look forward to your response. Paul From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 5-MAR-1997 08:01:40.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ADHD? In dogs? On 4th March Simon Gadbois wrote Dr. Walker, I just got your posting. I work with Dr. John Fentress on wolf social endocrinology and also did studies with him on the sequencing of actions and movements in canids (foxes, coyotes, wolves) at the Canadian Centre for Wolf Research. We are very interested to do further research (with a program I created) on ADHD in kids (yes, humans!) and also people with movement disorders (John also works a lot with neurologically mutant mice). I just realized I was not aware of an ADHD label for dogs (although I use it often, jokingly, for a friends' s samoyed) and was wondering if you could direct me towards references on this topic. 5th March Dear Simon, I have considerable problems with the label and I hate the DSM-IV Diagnostic Criteria and any attempt to foist them on the dog. [I feel the same about Galen and his graeco-roman medical confraternity who would claim to differentiate 300 varieties of circulatory pulse!] I spent a few years as a volunteer at a school for "emotionally and behaviorally disturbed children". A tiny cluster of them were diagnosed as "attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder" patients. From time to time they were medicated. Most commonly with the stimulant methylphenidate (Ritalin) which is similar to dexamethazine (Dexidrine). The precise action has been a mystery. In my view the mystery is greatly reduced by the work on reward deficit syndrome recently published by Blum et al. in American Scientist Volume 84. March-April 1996. If an organism cannot gain a reward for an activity it will experience the opposite sensation which is non-reward. On a continuum of intensity from slight disappointment to devastating grief the individual experiences a range of emotions which will include frustration, anger and even massive withrawal symptoms. The limbic reward chemistry may be prejudiced by anything from gentetics,trauma, malnutrition, malnurturing to disuse due to lack of opportunity. The result of such a deficit will be a variety of attempts to achieve reward with which we are all familiar. The children I observed often seemed to be able to concentrate and achieve some measure of resting contentment in class. They would also play and create mayhem in the playground with great gusto. Occasionally the teachers would ask for the medication to be stopped because the child's behaviour was greatly worsened. I believe that a subset of so called ADHD children had no deficit in reward chemistry but had learned to enjoy disruption, indeed were addicted to it, and a dopamine enhancer of the amphetamine type simply increased their reward for "bad behaviour". Other substances which enhance the reward cascade at various levels (serotonergioc, opioidergic or dopaminaergic) are alcohol,morphine, cocaine, marijuana, nicotine, carbohydrates, chocolate, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (fluoxetine), not so selective SSRI's (clomipramine) etc. Where a reward chemistry is uneducated or unrehearsed the ingenious use of behavioral techniques can institute associative signals which evoke the chemistry by stimulus and the individual can learn to be rewarded. I watched the clever teachers doing it and I have watched the clever "click-treaters" do it with quite splendid results. John Fisher recognised a type of "hyper-exciteable" dog which attended his office and was apparently oblivious to attempts to modify its behaviour. He noticesd for example that he could not train the dog to respond to the training discs. This requires to dog to accept (and enjoy) a series of tidbits and to be disappointed (non-rewarded, frustrated etc.) when the tidbit is withdeld. The use of an associative signal (the tinkling of the discs) seemed to become (after a few repetitions) an evoking stimulus of the sensation of frustration in the dog. It would shy (to a varying degree) away (terriers do this when the word "off" is used as a sound signal..any sound would do that is species typically peremptory rather than maternal or comforting) and go and sit quietly by the dafety signal of its owner. The "hyper" dog would simply not respond. Our interpretation of this MIGHT be that the reward element of the tidbit (if accepted at all) is not engaging the chemistry at a level that is likely to be mirrored by non-reward (disappointment) of any significant intensity either. John would send them home with a change of diet. This usually took the form of increasing carbohydrate (by default due to a belief that protein should be reduced). Often the dog would return in only a few days..seem much calmer and ..interestingly.."tune" to the discs fully and normally. There is here an opportunity for some elegantly constructed experiments with learning..perhaps discriminatory tasks. I suspect that there is a category of dogs which merit the label "reward deficit dogs". Their responses to the condition will be individual (hererogeneous) and the causes equally varied. Robin From: IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk" 5-MAR-1997 08:30:40.09 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dolly the Sheep > Jon Watts wrote: > > I heard a bunch of theriogenologists discussing the recent > cloning of a sheep. > > Not one word did I hear about ethics or morality. Nobody was questioning > whether it should or shouldn't have been done. They weren't apparently > concerned about whether a Pandora's box had been opened, afraid that evil > dictators were about to be reborn, or fearful that the wrath of God is > about to descend upon us all because humankind meddled with His, Her or > Its Creation. > > It struck me that if there is any cloning of mammals to be done, these are > the people that are going to be doing it. They were just interested in > what had been achieved and thinking about how a new technique could be > used to help them do their theriogenological stuff. > > It was quite refreshing! > > Jon Dear Jon So what is it that morally concerns you about Dolly? Is she about to re-open Pandora's box? Is she already plotting to take over the world? Does she believe in God? I would have thought that your bunch of theriogenologists were the people to have given it the most moral consideration as they probably deal with the science and hence the philosophy on a day to day basis. Their knowledge of the subject is also likely to give them a better understanding of the future implications than most. That is not to say that opinions about these matters should not be sought from a wider audience. We can all get caught out 'not seeing the wood for the trees'! However, I still believe that the cloning is best left to the geneticists. What do you think? Dale Dale Arey Animal and Feed Technology SAC Craibstone Estate Bucksburn Aberdeen, AB21 9YA UK AB21 9YA Tel: 01224 711058 From: IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk" 5-MAR-1997 08:30:48.37 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dolly the Sheep Dear Jon (I also appear to be having problems getting through to the Applied Ethology network) So what is it that morally concerns you about Dolly? Is she about to re-open Pandora's box? Is she already plotting to take over the world? Does she believe in God? I would have thought that your bunch of theriogenologists were the people to have given it the most moral consideration as they probably deal with the science and hence the philosophy on a day to day basis. Their knowledge of the subject is also likely to give them a better understanding of the future implications than most. That is not to say that opinions about these matters should not be sought from a wider audience. We can all get caught out 'not seeing the wood for the trees'! However, I still believe that the cloning is best left to the geneticists. What do you think? Dale >Jon Watts wrote: > > I heard a bunch of theriogenologists discussing the recent > cloning of a sheep. > > Not one word did I hear about ethics or morality. Nobody was questioning > whether it should or shouldn't have been done. They weren't apparently > concerned about whether a Pandora's box had been opened, afraid that evil > dictators were about to be reborn, or fearful that the wrath of God is > about to descend upon us all because humankind meddled with His, Her or > Its Creation. > > It struck me that if there is any cloning of mammals to be done, these are > the people that are going to be doing it. They were just interested in > what had been achieved and thinking about how a new technique could be > used to help them do their theriogenological stuff. > > It was quite refreshing! > > Jon Dale Arey Animal and Feed Technology SAC Craibstone Estate Bucksburn Aberdeen, AB21 9YA UK AB21 9YA Tel: 01224 711058 From: IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk" 5-MAR-1997 09:23:53.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dolly the Sheep Dear Jon What is it that morally concerns you about Dolly? Is she about to re-open Pandora's box? Is she already plotting to take over the world? Does she believe in God? I thought it very unlikely these days to be able to work without the bounds of some ethical framework. Even so, there seems to be a widely held belief that scientists have gone beyond being able to consider the moral implications of their work. I would have thought that your bunch of theriogenologists were the people to have given it the most moral consideration as they probably deal with the science and hence the philosophy behind it on a day to day basis. Their knowledge of the subject is also likely to give them a better understanding of the future connotations than most. It is probable that their debate on the matter has moved on a bit from the sort of horror story banded about by the tabloid press. And maybe its their responsibility to get these views across to the general public. Of course opinions about these matters should not be sought from a wider audience. We can all get caught out 'not seeing the wood for the trees'! However, don't dismiss those of the scientist! What do you think? Dale >Jon Watts wrote: > > I heard a bunch of theriogenologists discussing the recent > cloning of a sheep. > > Not one word did I hear about ethics or morality. Nobody was questioning > whether it should or shouldn't have been done. They weren't apparently > concerned about whether a Pandora's box had been opened, afraid that evil > dictators were about to be reborn, or fearful that the wrath of God is > about to descend upon us all because humankind meddled with His, Her or > Its Creation. > > It struck me that if there is any cloning of mammals to be done, these are > the people that are going to be doing it. They were just interested in > what had been achieved and thinking about how a new technique could be > used to help them do their theriogenological stuff. > > It was quite refreshing! > > Jon Dale Arey Animal and Feed Technology SAC Craibstone Estate Bucksburn Aberdeen, AB21 9YA UK AB21 9YA Tel: 01224 711058 From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 5-MAR-1997 11:15:41.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology-error" CC: Subj: RE: Need List of Behaviour Websites Joe: I assume you want subject matter websites. The only information on animal behavior that I know of on UC Davis websites that might be of interest to your veterinary students is one on handling cattle that describes Bud Williams handling techniques. You can access this information at , and I would very much like to get a list of items submitted. Ed Price ---------- >From: applied-ethology-error >To: applied-ethology >Cc: STOOKEY >Subject: Need List of Behaviour Websites >Date: Tuesday, March 04, 1997 10:34AM > >Dear All, > >I would like to make a directory or list of websites that have >information pertaining to animal behaviour. The list is not intended to >be slanted towards a specific species or a specific behavioural component. >Hopefully, the list would include websites on behaviour of zoo or captive >animals, behaviour of domestic food animals, laboratory animals, and >companion animals. The topics could include any behaviour such as >stereotypies, maternal behaviour, aggressive behaviour, operant >conditioning, training, use of drugs to modify behaviour, etc., etc. > >I would like to provide this list to our veterinary students. >Unfortunately most of our graduating veterinary students will have a >better chance of gaining access to the web and e-mail than they will a >good library. Therefore, I believe the web will be a useful tool for our >veterinarians out in rural practices and I would like to provide our >graduating students with a useful lists of web sites. > >If you have a web site or know of a web site that has information on >animal behaviour, would you please send me the addresses? Please send >them directly to me and NOT to the entire applied-ethology group. When I >have a complete list (within a week or two?) I will post the entire >directory to the applied-ethology in a single message. > >Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to your responses. > >Joe >======================== >Joseph M. Stookey >Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology >Western College of Veterinary Medicine >University of Saskatchewan >Saskatoon, Saskatchewan >S7N 5B4 >Canada > >joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca > > From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 5-MAR-1997 11:29:27.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dolly, the moral reflex and society. I'm happy to see a bit of interest in this topic. A-E does seem to have gone to the dogs lately. (I like dogs too. I'm just more interested in cows at present.) I was six years old when Armstrong and Aldrin walked on the moon. My parents got me out of bed in the middle of the night (we lived in the UK) sat me in front of the telly and told me to watch because something of historical importance was happening. I have a vague recollection of very poor, ghostly images and moving shadows and not being able to understand what I was seeing in the picture. I think there was a moment, as Armstrong came down the ladder, that the commentator remarked that some people had predicted that he would sink from view beneath a sea of dust as soon as he attempted his first "Small Step". He didn't. But we should have noticed that the footpads of the several ton spacecraft had barely made an impression on the surface. I'm glad that I was able to see, along with all those hundreds of millions of other humans, possibly the only event that the 20th century will be remembered for one thousand years later. Is mammalian cloning remotely comparable in importance? Probably not. But there is a possibility that it could change the way we live, or the way we think about ourselves. Dolly seems to have tripped quite a few moral reflexes, as far as people I've met and media I've seen are concerned. Many people seem to have a standard protocol for responding to anything new, especially when it appears to involve fiddling with "nature". (We could get into another debate over what nature is, but let's not, eh?) What I find refreshing is that not everybody is displaying this kind of neophobia. I didn't mean to suggest that the therio people are a moral vacuum. As individuals they have their moral prejudices like anyone else, I'm sure. As to whether they think and act ethically as scientists, I'll give them the benefit of any doubt unless I see reason not to. Which at this time I don't. Being able to produce identical (or reasonably similar, we should probably say) animals on a decent scale would give us some interesting possibilities for behavioural studies. I'd like to have some discussion in this area too. But for the moment I'll content myself with polishing my crystal ball and wondering what this does for society at large. The future will >not< be the same place to live in as the present. Any more than the past was. However looking back at recent history we find that often the neophobic moral reflexers do not greatly influence the outcome and their direst predictions often fail to materialise. Society has a great capacity for absorbing change. The early "test tube babies" are normal, young adult members of that society and the revolutionary technology that permitted their conception has reached widespread (though not universal) acceptance. Organ transplantation is routine in much of the developed world. It was experimental and controversial a couple of decades ago. I'm not qualified to comment on the technical aspects of cloning, but my understanding is that it is not as difficult as many people thought it would be. Whatever restrictive legislation or moral outrage it provokes, IT WILL HAPPEN. The technology will be refined and will become accessible to more people, for more purposes than we can imagine right now. There will be debate about whether this or that application is acceptable. But the technique per se is not evil. Besides some applications will happen whether society approves of them or not. All it will take is someone with an idea or wish, the right contacts and money (maybe not that much money either). I will be interested to see how our thinking on this changes in the next 25 years. I do not know if evil dictators, geniuses or extinct animals will be cloned. But I predict that SOME HUMANS WILL BE. We may be moving into a time where a person can have an individual organ or tissues cloned in vitro (or in an animal host) ready for transplantation. Maybe we will see spinoffs that we can't even imagine. What if you could grow a replacement organ right inside your own body? Well perhaps that is further ahead than we can see right now. One intriguing possibility is that our species is about to become one in which some individuals are able to reproduce asexually. I wonder how this would change us........ Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"ju56359@televar.com" "Michael Ubelaker" 5-MAR-1997 12:33:39.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dolly,monkeys,chickens Since Dolly's emergence into common knowledge, we in the 'States have been inundated by genetic research news in the media. These ongoing experiments seem to the public to be 'new' and to have come out of nowhere. I think that is where many of society's problems with this research will arise. The U.S. is well known for it's 'shoot first- ask later' mentality. A question sent to all of you, where do you think it will lead? What could be the benefit of a chicken that sings like a quail? If the research proceeds to human level, what is the benefit? With all of the common psychoses and neuroses flying around, do we really need people thinking they are something else? Can this realistically be used to 'save' species? Wouldn't it eventually end in a sort of genetic bottleneck? Every cheetah is genetically closely related enough to donate organs without rejection, but the species is ultimately doomed for lack of genetic variation. Is it immoral to create a bottleneck, and moral to widen one? What kind of restrictions can be placed, and who's version of morality does one go by? Everyone has a right to validate their doubts. Can humankind be trusted now to do what is in it's best interest, with the historical disasters that have been produced before? If it were as simple as "Look at what we can do!!" I think it would be less offensive to the common man. But it comes down to the fine line. The difference between knowing bombs can be made, and knowing that any knucklehead can find a recipe on the internet. People's fears are grounded when you see it from this angle. From: IN%"SED1517@ed.sac.ac.uk" 5-MAR-1997 12:51:32.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hello dolly! In response to the latest talk that has been going around about genetic engineering: I can see the validity of making sheep that produce special proteins in their milk, and pigs that produce organs we can harvest for human usage, and yes, if I needed them I probably wouldn't hesitate to use them. But I feel that the whole business is intrinsically wrong, partly because I don't like the idea of manipulating animals even more than we do already, but also because NOBODY has any idea what the impact of all this messing with genes will lead. Just look at the plight of the broiler hen who is a complete physiological mess at the age of 40 days, thanks to our selective breeding. Where will it all end? On a happier note, here is a genetics joke for all you science fans out there: Recent studies have shown that diarrhea is hereditary: It's in your jeans! Victoria Sandilands Animal Behaviour/Welfare student Institute of Ecology and Resource Management King's Buildings West Mains Road Edinburgh, EH9-3JG Scotland SED1517@ed.sac.ac.uk From: IN%"gfb1@email.psu.edu" "G. F. Barbato" 5-MAR-1997 14:09:53.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: wanted: Windows behavior software a while back (at least one hard drive crash ago) someone posted the location of beta/demo/shareware versions of behavior recording software for ibm compatibles and/or windows... if someone could repost or let me know of any new software i'd appreciate it. thanks, guy G. F. Barbato Phone: (814)-865-4481 Graduate Program in Genetics FAX: (814)-865-5691 Dept. Poultry Science Lab: (814)-865-3189 Penn State University Email: gfb1@psu.edu University Park, PA 16802 http://ps235.cas.psu.edu/ From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 5-MAR-1997 14:21:38.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dolly As far as I know, what is special about Dolly is that she was cloned from the cells of an adult sheep. I believe (am I right?) that mammals have been cloned previously, but through embryo splitting. I don't think there is anything transgenic about her. I don't personally see any ethical problems with cloned sheep. It wouldn't be sensible to use cloning instead of normal breeding on a mass scale because of the loss of genetic variability. However, I don't think cloning is much more dangerous in this respect than artifical insemination (which we seem to accept). We need to make sure that genetic variability is maintained, even though cloning is possible. The main fear seems to be that cloning could be extended to humans. However, I dont believe that the public is particularly concered about ethical issues, so much as Hollywood inspired fantasies about cloned Adolf Hitlers. Are these fantasies really likely to happen? Cloned people would be no more similar than identical twins. It would be easier to produce blood-thirsty dictators by training them than by cloning them. I think cloning would be great. People already can influence the genetics of their offspring by choosing who they will mate with, except that they often get it wrong. If you have one healthy, happy well-adapted child and you want another, why take the risk that the next will be genetically defective. Clone the first one! In X years, when human cloning is a regular event, I am sure we will all be wondering what the fuss was about. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 5-MAR-1997 15:26:24.73 To: IN%"gfb1@email.psu.edu" "G. F. Barbato" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: wanted: Windows behavior software On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, G. F. Barbato wrote: > a while back (at least one hard drive crash ago) someone posted the > location of beta/demo/shareware versions of behavior recording software for > ibm compatibles and/or windows... > if someone could repost or let me know of any new software i'd appreciate it. > thanks, > guy > > > G. F. Barbato Phone: (814)-865-4481 > Graduate Program in Genetics FAX: (814)-865-5691 > Dept. Poultry Science Lab: (814)-865-3189 > Penn State University Email: gfb1@psu.edu > University Park, PA 16802 http://ps235.cas.psu.edu/ > There is a freeware program called "etholog" available at http://192.216.191.60/CapeCanaveral/Lab/2727/ethohome.html I can't vouch for it though, because I've never used it. Good luck! Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 5-MAR-1997 15:35:36.72 To: IN%"gfb1@email.psu.edu" "G. F. Barbato" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: wanted: Windows behavior software On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, G. F. Barbato wrote: > a while back (at least one hard drive crash ago) someone posted the > location of beta/demo/shareware versions of behavior recording software for > ibm compatibles and/or windows... > if someone could repost or let me know of any new software i'd appreciate it. > thanks, > guy > > > G. F. Barbato Phone: (814)-865-4481 > Graduate Program in Genetics FAX: (814)-865-5691 > Dept. Poultry Science Lab: (814)-865-3189 > Penn State University Email: gfb1@psu.edu > University Park, PA 16802 http://ps235.cas.psu.edu/ > There is a freeware program called "etholog" available at http://192.216.191.60/CapeCanaveral/Lab/2727/ethohome.html I can't vouch for it though, because I've never used it. Good luck! Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"abcdog@iinet.net.au" "abcdog" 5-MAR-1997 15:45:34.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Disabled handler with puppy Hello Many thanks to all of your responses re my client with restricted movement to the left side of his body attempting to train a five month old lab pup. We have achieved a reasonable amount of training using a little ingenuity. I asked for suggestions to see if there was any point I may have not considered. The five months old puppy is what I would consider a very normal puppy, boistrous, but normally so, with a fine sense of humour. Because of his very normal out going personality I have never considered using medication to quieten him down. The owner is still working at the co-ordination of his own limited movements and the natural exuberance of the puppy. The puppy is now sitting and waiting for a command to eat his his meals (the food dish is moved along the floor towards the tied up puppy). He also sits to allow his owner to connect the lead to large ring attached to the collar. We are still working on him not racing through the door. For ease (dog and handler) when out walking we are now trialling a "Lupi" harness made in Switzerland and purchased from the Company of Animals in Britain. This harness is made from a cord, is all in one piece, with no buckles etc to fasten and it is possible to put it on a dog with only one hand. Again many thanks Rosalie Skewes ABC Dog Training & Supplies Perth, Western Australia abcdog@iinet.net.au From: IN%"cmeyer5@gwdg.de" "cmeyer5" 5-MAR-1997 16:07:10.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dolly Jeff Rushen wrote: > As far as I know, what is special about Dolly is that she was cloned > from the cells of an adult sheep. I believe (am I right?) that mammals have > been cloned previously, but through embryo splitting. I don't think there is > anything transgenic about her. For all those who have easier access to the internet than to a library: Nature has the original article on its home page this week, and also some thoughts about the usefulness (i.e. application) of cloning and about ethical concerns. > Cloned people would be no more similar than identical twins. They would probably be quite different, depending on the time that one chooses for cloning the second individual (is there anybody out there who would not agree on the term >individual If you have one healthy, happy well-adapted child and > you want another, why take the risk that the next will be genetically > defective. Clone the first one! Great idea! It would be even better if you could also order that the second child had red hair instead of blond....... However, I think the best thing to do would be to clone onself. Then you can be absolutely certain that the clone won't show any unpredicted characteristics. You will know right from the start that he or she will hate tomatoes and will still chew his or her fingernails at the age of 46..... What a boring world. Christiane ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr. med. vet. Christiane Meyer Goettingen Germany ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: IN%"gfb1@email.psu.edu" "G. F. Barbato" 5-MAR-1997 17:08:29.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Hello dolly! maybe a not so quick note.... i think a quick look at the plant biology literature would be a first good step before beginning the 'clone wars' discussion. there is a considerable amount of literature on the use of tree clones in the design and construction of forest ecologies. HOWEVER>>>> At 06:53 PM 3/5/97 +0000, you wrote: >In response to the latest talk that has been going around about genetic >engineering: [snip] > Just look at the plight of the broiler hen who is a >complete physiological mess at the age of 40 days, thanks to our selective >breeding. Where will it all end? this hurt my feelings. aside from the mixed metaphor of a broiler at 40 days and a broilerbreeder hen --- i'm not sure that ALL broilers (or hens) are quite that bad. geneticists have resolved the obesity issue in fairly short order and there are strategies (existing and developing) to deal with other 'metabolic diseases' such as ascites, sudden death, tibial dyschondroplasia. while (as in any selection scheme) some correlated responses have been deleterious, and by their nature, unpredictable .... there are ways to correct these problems. i am much more concerned about the attitudes of animal industry personel to their wards than the impact of genetic selection/crossing. i am also interested in how the upandcoming pig industry will address similar issues (i.e., can they learn from the history of poultry?) cheers, gfb G. F. Barbato Phone: (814)-865-4481 Graduate Program in Genetics FAX: (814)-865-5691 Dept. Poultry Science Lab: (814)-865-3189 Penn State University Email: gfb1@psu.edu University Park, PA 16802 http://ps235.cas.psu.edu/ From: IN%"ju56359@televar.com" "Michael Ubelaker" 5-MAR-1997 17:09:01.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: re:dolly In response to genetic engineering of children, and Hitler clones. I heard an editorial on NPR that struck true. All you no for certain is that your cloned person will have identical genetic make-up to your origional. You cannot have a Dream Team made from all Michael Jordan clones, because you will be missing the spark that makes a man a man. You are missing the fact that he was cut from a team because he wasn't good enough, and had EXPERIENCES. How can one assume that just because the genetics are the same, that experience plays no part, and one well-adjusted child will clone another?? From: IN%"pbmcconn@facstaff.wisc.edu" 5-MAR-1997 17:21:09.17 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dolly I want to add my voice to those encouraging discussion about science and ethics. Besides acting as an applied ethologist (mostly on those ubiquitous dogs, and even >I< get occasionally weary of "why does my dog ......" questions) I also teach a Univ class titled The Biology and Philosophy of Human/Animal Interactions, so the media buzz about cloning is very timely for our class discussions. These are issues that students are starved for --- my class has 185 students and turned away as many who couldn't get in. Many of the students told me that they were not interested in "other" science classes, but wanted to take a class where they could make a thoughtful, rigorous and in-depth investigation of who animals are and what our obligations toward them might, and should, be. I strongly believe the enrolling "non-scientists" in an understanding of scientific issues, which are now simply part and parcel of life, is essential to a healthy society, as is the acknowledgement that with power goes responsibility. We all need to inquire into what those responsibilities should be, whether scientist or ethicist or members of the public. After pondering this cloning "news" my strongest reaction is a concern about genetic diversity. It strikes me that our world is moving, in many fields, toward less and less diversity. Not just in a purely biological sense, although that seems overwhelming when you consider species diversity problems, lack of genetic variance in domestic plants and animals,etc., but also in other systems, like the number of corporations doing business in the US. It seems as though every large organization is now owned by some larger organization and I can imagine two or three companies running the country by 2025. I'm curious if others also sense a decrease in diversity from many perspectives, and share my concern that we are increasingly adapted to a smaller and smaller range of environments. Any thoughts? Question: several UW researchers have told me that we have had the capability of doing this cloning for many years, it's not my field so I don't know that that's true, but have no reason to disbelieve my genetist colleagues --- any comment from those who know more than I?) Trisha *********************************** Patricia B. McConnell, Ph.D. Ass't Adjunct Professor, Dept. of Zoology, UW-Madison Birge Hall, Madison, Wisconsin 53706 Applied Ethologist, Dog's Best Friend, Ltd. P.O. Box 447 Black Earth, Wisconsin 53515 608 767-2435 FAX 608 767-3726 (Send mail or calls here, not to UW) ************************************ From: IN%"christison@admin.usask.ca" "Iain Christison" 5-MAR-1997 18:48:55.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: re:Moral near-clones In addition to missing a spark, the so-called clones are missing the mitochondrial DNA which affects energy metabolism and which comes from the ewe that provided the egg into which Dolly's nuclear DNA was injected. Calves resulting from nucleii taken from the same embryo at the several-cell stage (and therefore identical in nuclear DNA) grew at markedly different rates because the "egg-shells" came from other cows. The incubator cows too have different uteruses to affect the developing embryos so we have not reached clones yet, and perhaps never will for mammals. These points are not relevant to the morality of the issue. I think that the moral question strikes those who are abruptly presented with a fresh issue. During a 20-year period we went from embryo transplants to Dolly by a series of technical steps. Having answered the first question "Is it acceptable to increase the number of offspring from a single female?" with a yes, then reproductive biologists have few big questions left. The consequences of these actions then become questioned by newcomers who see or foresee bad consequences. For poultry farmers the first questions was "Should we bring the hens in out of the cold?" and that answer was also yes. Later, the chicks were fed better, kept free of infectious disease, crowded, grew very fast, and many became lame. Now we question the morality of current husbandry in terms of space or lighting or pain, but that does not mean that the earlier steps were not taken for sound moral reasons. Nor does it mean that the morality of previous plans resulted in an acceptable final situation. Sounds like negative feedback can also function to maintain biological systems in a reasonably harmonic moral balance. Iain Christison. ******************* Dr. Iain Christison Animal and Poultry Science University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon S7N 5B5, Canada Christison@admin.usask.ca From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 5-MAR-1997 18:54:47.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dolly the Sheep In a message dated 97-03-05 10:52:12 EST, you write: > What is it that morally concerns you about Dolly? I have NO moral qualms about Dolly. Especially, since she'll probably live out her days in the lap of sheepy luxury. I'm not sure I have any moral qualms about human cloning. I don't see a difference between a cloned child and an in-vitro child, except for the lack of input from two genetic sources. Let's say you're a woman married to the love of your life and you discover you're likely to produce a child with cystic fibrosis or some other genetically determined fatal disorder.. Your options are to take your chances with genetics and see what you get, remain childless, adopt a child, find a surrogate mother to bear your husband's child, find an egg donor whose eggs can be fertilized with your husband's sperm and implanted in you so you can experience the joys of child birth, or clone your husband and bear the clone. These are all very HARD options to pick from, but at least we have those options. (Personally, I'd opt for cloning. That way, when the kid didn't get home on time, I could say "YOUR CLONE came in a hour late and didn't put gas in the car.") The only difference here is that Dolly's mom (whoever we consider her to be) didn't have these options. BUT, when a ram is turned loose with a bunch of ewes in estrus, the ewes don't have much choice either. I don't see a problem with this, especially since most kids are going to be produced the old fashioned way no matter what the scientists do. Cheers, Margie From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 5-MAR-1997 19:46:20.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dolly, cloning, and ethics Okay, since folks seem supportive of a discussion on ethics, here's some thoughts on one of my concerns about cloning. One of the reasons used by some ethicists to justify the killing of animals is their "replaceability". That means, roughly, that they believe a killed animal can be replaced by a purpose-bred animal (like a calf making up for the death of a slaughtered cow, or a purpose-bred dog making up for one killed at the end of a research project). The principle of replaceability declares that no net moral harm has been done by killing a non-human animal as long as that animal is replaced by a similar animal which produces at least as much moral good (in utilitarian terms, experiences as much pleasure or happiness--"utility") as the first would have. The position is possible because, according to some, non-human animals do not have individual inherent value. They are valuable " only in so far as they make possible the existence of intrinsically valuable experiences like pleasures. It is as if sentient beings are receptacles of something valuable and it does not matter if a receptacle gets broken, so long as there is another receptacle to which the contents can be transferred without any getting spilt" (Singer, 1979, p. 100) . Now, if folks ALREADY tend toward the belief that animals are interchangeable, it seems to me that cloning will only strengthen that tendency. It will give folks one more excuse to believe that it doesn't matter what is done with an animal--after all, another can be made exactly like it, so who cares if this one gets broken? That has unsavory implications not only for research use of animals, but for issues of animal abuse/misuse/overuse in general. Ione, DVM and now struggling grad student ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/stereo.html the stereotypical behaviors database --under construction--all additions welcomed!-- http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics ================================================== From: IN%"arion@dialatlanta.com" 5-MAR-1997 20:58:05.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: [Fwd: Re: Dolly, the moral reflex and society.] Message-ID: <331E2967.152D@dialatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 21:18:15 -0500 From: Chris Redenbach Reply-To: arion@dialatlanta.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jon Watts Subject: Re: Dolly, the moral reflex and society. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jon Watts wrote: > > I'm happy to see a bit of interest in this topic. A-E does seem to have > gone to the dogs lately. (I like dogs too. I'm just more interested in > cows at present.) > > I was six years old when Armstrong and Aldrin walked on the moon. My > parents got me out of bed in the middle of the night (we lived in the UK) > sat me in front of the telly and told me to watch because something of > historical importance was happening. I have a vague recollection of very > poor, ghostly images and moving shadows and not being able to understand > what I was seeing in the picture. I think there was a moment, as Armstrong > came down the ladder, that the commentator remarked that some people had > predicted that he would sink from view beneath a sea of dust as soon as he > attempted his first "Small Step". He didn't. But we should have noticed > that the footpads of the several ton spacecraft had barely made an > impression on the surface. I'm glad that I was able to see, along with all > those hundreds of millions of other humans, possibly the only event that > the 20th century will be remembered for one thousand years later. > > Is mammalian cloning remotely comparable in importance? Probably not. But > there is a possibility that it could change the way we live, or the way we > think about ourselves. Dolly seems to have tripped quite a few moral > reflexes, as far as people I've met and media I've seen are concerned. > Many people seem to have a standard protocol for responding to anything > new, especially when it appears to involve fiddling with "nature". (We > could get into another debate over what nature is, but let's not, eh?) > What I find refreshing is that not everybody is displaying this kind of > neophobia. > > I didn't mean to suggest that the therio people are a moral vacuum. As > individuals they have their moral prejudices like anyone else, I'm sure. > As to whether they think and act ethically as scientists, I'll give them > the benefit of any doubt unless I see reason not to. Which at this time I > don't. > > Being able to produce identical (or reasonably similar, we should probably > say) animals on a decent scale would give us some interesting > possibilities for behavioural studies. I'd like to have some discussion in > this area too. But for the moment I'll content myself with polishing my > crystal ball and wondering what this does for society at large. > > The future will >not< be the same place to live in as the present. Any > more than the past was. However looking back at recent history we find > that often the neophobic moral reflexers do not greatly influence the > outcome and their direst predictions often fail to materialise. Society > has a great capacity for absorbing change. The early "test tube babies" > are normal, young adult members of that society and the revolutionary > technology that permitted their conception has reached widespread (though > not universal) acceptance. Organ transplantation is routine in much of the > developed world. It was experimental and controversial a couple of decades > ago. > > I'm not qualified to comment on the technical aspects of cloning, but my > understanding is that it is not as difficult as many people thought it > would be. Whatever restrictive legislation or moral outrage it provokes, > IT WILL HAPPEN. The technology will be refined and will become accessible > to more people, for more purposes than we can imagine right now. There > will be debate about whether this or that application is acceptable. But > the technique per se is not evil. Besides some applications will happen > whether society approves of them or not. All it will take is someone with > an idea or wish, the right contacts and money (maybe not that much money > either). I will be interested to see how our thinking on this changes in > the next 25 years. > > I do not know if evil dictators, geniuses or extinct animals will be > cloned. But I predict that SOME HUMANS WILL BE. We may be moving into a > time where a person can have an individual organ or tissues cloned in > vitro (or in an animal host) ready for transplantation. Maybe we will see > spinoffs that we can't even imagine. What if you could grow a replacement > organ right inside your own body? Well perhaps that is further ahead than > we can see right now. > > One intriguing possibility is that our species is about to become one in > which some individuals are able to reproduce asexually. I wonder how this > would change us........ > > Jon > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jon Watts (___) ) ) > University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( > Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) > and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( > Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) > 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& > Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ > S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ > Canada &^%%#$@ > wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I very much enjoyed your post (even though I am a dog behavior person). Ultimately I see, as do you, many exciting and positive things happening with this technology. And indeed, each of these individual technological steps is not of itself immoral. I don't even like to think so much about trying to define morality in the face of the juxtaposition of the improved knowledge of our behavioral roots in the primates meeting the improved knowledge of contemporary physics and investigations into such things as consciousness. However, it only seems that we are a specialized world and while one will use a technology with wisdom (often ascertained only by 20 / 20 hindsight) another will use it very unwisely, proven in the same hindsight system. Perhaps we should encourage teams of psychics to help! or you should pull out that crystal ball of yours and moonlight. Ione made an excellent comment about how it may encourage the current callous attitude towards the inherent value of animals in some circles. I think that there will be a time when this will likely occur, but it will probably stimulate even more research into the areas that will ultimately raise the status of animals in relation to people and create a better world for them than they have now. As to asexual reproduction, a contributor to the Bouvier des Flandres list I'm on has attributed the entire cloning thing to a feminist plot. Somehow that discussion led to one about men in kilts and then the philosophy of the whole thing was lost and we all decided that it is a good thing it's spring. BTW how's the weather in Saskatchewan? Is it close to spring for you? Christy Redenbach Alliance Dog Training School Arion Bouviers des Flandres Lawrenceville, Georgia, USA From: IN%"harrism@sask.usask.ca" 5-MAR-1997 22:26:35.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "etho-list" CC: IN%"HARRISM@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Animal replaceability (speciesism) Dear all, Ione Smith wrote that some view killing one non-human animal and replacing it with another as morally acceptable since there has been no net loss, and non-human animals (call them 'animals' for shorthand) have no intrinsic worth -- unlike human animals. She quotes Peter Singer for this -- I presume Singer was explaining the position in order to refute it, since he would see this as a prime example of speciesism: discriminating against an individual simply on the basis of his/her species. For those who haven't read Animal Liberation, Singer explains his objections to speciesism in detail in chapter one, finding it analogous (and similarly unacceptable) to racism and sexism. Many people's reaction to the issues raised by the existence of Dolly seem similarly speciesist; it is OK to clone a sheep (cow/rat/pig/crocodile) -- but what if we cloned a person? Now that really would be horrible! To comment on Ione's comment: I don't think people would view animals as more dispensible/replaceable if they were cloned than they currently do. Sadly, my experience to date has led me to the conclusion that many people involved with farm animals (producers and scientists) give the ethics of their use not a moment's thought. Having their animals cloned instead of reproduced as currently could not make them more replaceable: they are already as throwaway as they could be. - Moira Harris From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 6-MAR-1997 09:19:50.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Feminist Plot or Brood Parasitism? Without wanting to offend anyone I just thought I'd point out that Christy's contributor who thinks it is all a feminist plot should remember that cloning provides one more opportunity for men to exploit or parasitize women. In this case as hosts for their clones. After all, it would be one way to be sure of having a son (brother?). Then again, aren't offspring that are generated by a process of asexual reproduction usually called daughters? My head hurts.... Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"arion@dialatlanta.com" 6-MAR-1997 10:00:33.30 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Feminist Plot or Brood Parasitism? Jon Watts wrote: > > Without wanting to offend anyone I just thought I'd point out that > Christy's contributor who thinks it is all a feminist plot should remember > that cloning provides one more opportunity for men to exploit or > parasitize women. In this case as hosts for their clones. After all, it > would be one way to be sure of having a son (brother?). Then again, aren't > offspring that are generated by a process of asexual reproduction usually > called daughters? > > My head hurts.... > OOOOH! Jon No wonder your head hurts! I bet some female person there saw you writing this and introduced your head to a blunt object. You might consider a screen play on this theme. It might be more lucrative than a grant. Winter is long up there! I joke only because you are right and it is one of those things that snaps one back to reality. Yes, it is a whole other issue. Keep them barefoot, pregnant and in the lab. ( I don't know if this phrase is just North American or international...it's meant to be a humorous play on a cliche) Christy PS May I forward this post to the person on the Bouvier list who originated this feminist plot thread? Christy Redenbach Alliance Dog Training School Arion Bouviers des Flandres Lawrenceville, Georgia, USA From: IN%"llantagn@zoo.uvm.edu" "Laurie J. Lantagne" 6-MAR-1997 15:56:42.32 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Jeff Rushen wrote that he did not think cloning was much more dangerous than normal breeding on a mass scale (as in artificial insemination) in limiting genetic variation. I am doing research on reproductive technology and related ethical issues. (AI, embryo transfer etc). Does anyone know of sources that might involve discussions of ethics related to mass breeding, AI, reproductive organ alterations etc? Thanks. llantagn@zoo.uvm.edu University of Vermont From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" 6-MAR-1997 19:35:15.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" Subj: RE: ADHD? In dogs? >On 4th March Simon Gadbois wrote > > >Dr. Walker, > >I just got your posting. >I work with Dr. John Fentress on wolf social endocrinology and also did >studies with him on the sequencing of actions and movements in canids >(foxes, coyotes, wolves) at the Canadian Centre for Wolf Research. >We are very interested to do further research (with a program I created) >on ADHD in kids (yes, humans!) and also people with movement disorders >(John also works a lot with neurologically mutant mice). I just realized >I was not aware of an ADHD label for dogs (although I use it often, jokingly, >for a friends' s samoyed) and was wondering if you could direct me towards >references on this topic. > >5th March > >Dear Simon, > >I have considerable problems with the label and I hate the DSM-IV >Diagnostic Criteria and any attempt to foist them on the dog. > >[I feel the same about Galen and his graeco-roman medical >confraternity who would claim to differentiate 300 varieties of >circulatory pulse!] > >I spent a few years as a volunteer at a school for "emotionally >and behaviorally disturbed children". A tiny cluster of them were >diagnosed as "attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder" patients. >From time to time they were medicated. Most commonly with the >stimulant methylphenidate (Ritalin) which is similar to >dexamethazine (Dexidrine). The precise action has been a mystery. >In my view the mystery is greatly reduced by the work on reward >deficit syndrome recently published by Blum et al. in American >Scientist Volume 84. March-April 1996. > >If an organism cannot gain a reward for an activity it will >experience the opposite sensation which is non-reward. On a >continuum of intensity from slight disappointment to devastating >grief the individual experiences a range of emotions which will >include frustration, anger and even massive withrawal symptoms. > >The limbic reward chemistry may be prejudiced by anything from >gentetics,trauma, malnutrition, malnurturing to disuse due to lack >of opportunity. > >The result of such a deficit will be a variety of attempts to >achieve reward with which we are all familiar. The children I >observed often seemed to be able to concentrate and achieve some >measure of resting contentment in class. They would also play and >create mayhem in the playground with great gusto. Occasionally the >teachers would ask for the medication to be stopped because the >child's behaviour was greatly worsened. > >I believe that a subset of so called ADHD children had no deficit >in reward chemistry but had learned to enjoy disruption, indeed >were addicted to it, and a dopamine enhancer of the amphetamine >type simply increased their reward for "bad behaviour". > >Other substances which enhance the reward cascade at various levels >(serotonergioc, opioidergic or dopaminaergic) are alcohol,morphine, >cocaine, marijuana, nicotine, carbohydrates, chocolate, selective >serotonin reuptake inhibitors (fluoxetine), not so selective SSRI's >(clomipramine) etc. > >Where a reward chemistry is uneducated or unrehearsed the ingenious >use of behavioral techniques can institute associative signals >which evoke the chemistry by stimulus and the individual can learn >to be rewarded. I watched the clever teachers doing it and I have >watched the clever "click-treaters" do it with quite splendid >results. > >John Fisher recognised a type of "hyper-exciteable" dog which >attended his office and was apparently oblivious to attempts to >modify its behaviour. He noticesd for example that he could not >train the dog to respond to the training discs. > >This requires to dog to accept (and enjoy) a series of tidbits and >to be disappointed (non-rewarded, frustrated etc.) when the tidbit >is withdeld. The use of an associative signal (the tinkling of the >discs) seemed to become (after a few repetitions) an evoking >stimulus of the sensation of frustration in the dog. It would shy >(to a varying degree) away (terriers do this when the word "off" is >used as a sound signal..any sound would do that is species >typically peremptory rather than maternal or comforting) and go >and sit quietly by the dafety signal of its owner. > >The "hyper" dog would simply not respond. > >Our interpretation of this MIGHT be that the reward element of the >tidbit (if accepted at all) is not engaging the chemistry at a level >that is likely to be mirrored by non-reward (disappointment) of any >significant intensity either. > >John would send them home with a change of diet. This usually took >the form of increasing carbohydrate (by default due to a belief >that protein should be reduced). Often the dog would return in only >a few days..seem much calmer and ..interestingly.."tune" to the >discs fully and normally. > >There is here an opportunity for some elegantly constructed >experiments with learning..perhaps discriminatory tasks. > >I suspect that there is a category of dogs which merit the label >"reward deficit dogs". Their responses to the condition will be >individual (hererogeneous) and the causes equally varied. > >Robin > Here's a reference re. ADHD that may deserve attention, and some of my experiences. Corson, S.A. et.al., Centennial Symposium on Hungtington's Chorea, Raven Press, New York, 1973 I had the pleasure of Samuel Corson's scientific generosity while he visited So. California in 1973. He was interested in early work with acupuncture, while I was interested in intractible, constantly active problem dogs. His work at Ohio State U., Dep't of Biopsychiatry with many of the dogs from Scott and Fuller's Bowling Green program is a landmark which, for some reason, we rarely see in the literature. However, Sam's informal definition for hyperkinesis was *hypo-inhibitability,* which, as a label, is certainly closer to the synaptic mark, in that the symathomimetics that block the reuptake of 5-hydroxytriptamine tend to raise response threshholds to external stimuli while lowering spontaneous activity in *hyperkinetic* dogs. In normal animals, moderate dosages [.2mg/kg] usually produce symptoms of hyperkinesis. In any event, Corson's work led many of my distraught clients [and me] from the edge of total exhasperation to blessed relief, when we witnessed dogs that were incapable of either being controlled or developing an iota of self-control, transform in a matter of an hour into serene, apparently contented pets. The veterinarians in the Los Angeles area with whom we worked were as pleased as anyone, too... finally treating the dogs without fear of injury. I have delineated between the hyperactive [hyperkinetic] and the hyper-reactive dog, since we see a clearly perceivable behavioral difference between them; the hyperactive [hyperkinetic]dog, given no over-riding social/environmental influences, is *an always-active response-mechanism in search of a stimulus* except when asleep, we have taught these dogs to sit, but they cannot stay sitting. I monitored one GSD who actually hit dining room chairs with his shoulder, just [so it seemed] to have the chair rock back and hit him. We also found physiologic symptoms which agree with Corson's; namely, under mild restraint and/or social isolation - 1. sustained tachycardia 2. persistent hyperpnea 3. excessive salivation 4. increased energy metabolism 5. a vasopressin-type antidiuresis [for their activity level, they drink abnormally little water]. In all our cases [about 30 spanning 7 years in the 70s] the dogs slept soundly, but slept fewer hours per day than normal dogs. All cases treated with d-amphetamine or Ritalin responded beautifully and the drug could be phased out in six weeks. One case required 12 weeks' medication due to illness of the owner. Post medicant, the dogs retained self-control and responded normally to stimuli, although with, as Corson said.. *a hyperkinetic flavor.* Every case dog I saw lived a normal span of happy family life. Sadly, even today, euthanasia usually takes place prior to diagnosis in the vast majority of these dogs. The hyper-reactive dog, given no over-riding social/environmental influences, usually needs external stimuli before symtpoms [over-reaction] occur. However, I've found these dogs also display unique autonomic and behavioral anomolies. But that's another subject. I certainly agree that it's a shame these pet dogs got lumped into and apparently lost among child psychology's diagnostic catch-alls. Bill Campbell From: IN%"Kate.Littin.1@uni.massey.ac.nz" "Kate Littin" 6-MAR-1997 20:50:58.02 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: hi all, i apologise if my words were misinterpreted as a supposition that Dolly's producers had no ethics. I merely thought it was a good way to get a discussion going! Thanks for the comments. Regards, Kate Littin. ================================== = Kate Littin = = Dept. Physiology & Anatomy = = Massey University = = Private Bag = = Palmerston North = = New Zealand (Aotearoa) = = ph +64 06 3504481 = = Kate.Littin.1@uni.massey.ac.nz = ================================== From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 7-MAR-1997 07:01:14.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Shakespear and Dolly? Jon Watts wrote: > > Without wanting to offend anyone I just thought I'd point out that > Christy's contributor who thinks it is all a feminist plot should remember > that cloning provides one more opportunity for men to exploit or > parasitize women. In this case as hosts for their clones. After all, it > would be one way to be sure of having a son (brother?). Then again, aren't > offspring that are generated by a process of asexual reproduction usually > called daughters? > > My head hurts.... > >>here saw you writing this and introduced your head to a blunt >>object. You might consider a screen play on this theme. It might >>be more lucrative than a grant. >>Winter is long up there! (Thus wrote Chris Redenbach in the forenoon) Aha! Screen play!...Winter! Yes! I remember now...this was a subject of concern to thinking folk in the 17th century. THE WINTER'S TALE Act IV line 81 et seq PERDITA (a shepherdess) ..... ... ..the fairest flowers o'the season Are our carnations, and streaked gillyvors, Which some call nature's bastards; of that kind Our rustic garden's barren, and I care not To get slips of them. POLIXENES (King of Bohemia) Wherefore, gentle maiden Do you neglect them? PER. For I have heard it said There is an art which, in their piedness, shares With great creating nature. POL. Say there be; Yet nature is made better by no mean But nature makes that mean; so, o'er that art Which, you say, adds to nature, is an art That nature makes. You see, sweet maid, we marry A gentler scion to the wildest stock, And make conceive a bark of baser kind By bud of nobler race: this is an art Which does amend nature,-change it rather;but The art itself IS nature. PER. So it is. POL. Then make your garden rich in gillyvors And do not call them bastards. PER. I'll not put The dibble in earth to set one slip of them: Not more than, were I painted, I would wish This youth should say,!t'were well, and only therefore Desire to breed by me... [!!!Even then the argument somehow gets round to feminism!!] Forsooth, Robin (a horse leech)