From: IN%"SUMNERR@ruakura.cri.nz" 28-FEB-1995 17:06:56.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: To Ian Duncan - Strong and weak specific needs - from Lindsay Matthews Dear Ian Very briefly, I'm intrigued that you differentiate between strong and weak "specific" needs on the basis of whether or not external stimulation is required. Please elaborate. Further, I'd very much like to know what constitutes a specific need as opposed to a general need. is it simply that you don't know what specific need the general seems to serve? Cheers Lindsay Matthews From: IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu" 1-MAR-1995 11:15:57.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cat Declaw (fwd) Alan Beck has been kind enough to respond to my various points on declawing, so I will do my best to reply to them: > > Dr. Serpell makes the value > judgement that concern for ones home and furnishings is trivial. A > common criticism of people with strong humane attitudes is that they > appear not to have a life or interests beyond their animals. > Trivializing the way one choose to live only reinforces that attitude. So what's wrong with making value judgments? Yes, I freely own to regarding the cat's post-operative suffering as more important from an ethical standpoint than the condition of its owner's sofa. I would also consider it wrong for a parent to smack a child for accidentally spilling grape juice on the sofa, although I would have some sympathy for the parent who smacked a child for running into the road. All of these are value judgments. Is it not ethically appropriate to trivialise/criticise a person's values or lifestyle if one believes they are causing unnecessary suffering to others for relatively trivial reasons? > The painless killing of a suffering animal is indeed an act of euthanasia, > but most animal deaths, while deemed necessary, are not necessarily in > the animal's best interest. Your point is well taken, although I would still argue that death itself is not a welfare or well-being issue, only the manner of death. It is an ethical issue but that is different. To be honest, I don't know if we can ever talk about death being in an animal's best interests. Can an animal have an interest in something it is not even aware of? I can readily believe that animals have interests in pursuing goals, seeking pleasure, avoiding pain, etc. But I find it hard to believe that (most) nonhuman animals have the capacity to envisage 'death' as something to be either sought or avoided. > there is now good evidence that > front paw declawing of cats has human public health value in families > where there has been Cat Scratch Disease or where there are family > members that are immunosuppressed. > What you seem to be saying is that there may be special cases when declawing is the only option. Possibly there are, and I will await publication of the cat scratch disease story before making up my mind about whether or not the public health advantages outweigh the potential costs in terms of suffering cats. However, I will be surprised if it changes the ethical balance greatly. The thing that disturbs me is the way the veterinary profession in N. America has accepted the declawing solution without even really considering possible alternatives. As if the animal itself is just like a suit of clothes that can be trimmed or taken in at the seams to fit the owner. There has been virtually no useful research on why cats choose to scratch particular pieces of furniture and not others, or on why some cats scratch and others don't. Maybe plastic claw caps do offer a humane solution? Is the veterinary profession looking into this? I doubt it. And what about behaviour modification. There seems to be a strange idea out there that behaviour with a strong instinctive component is somehow immutable. This is nonsense. Even your archetypal 'fixed action pattern' can be shaped and channeled in more acceptable directions without resorting to punishment. And even short-term punishment, if effective, is better than surgery, surely. By complying with owners' wishes to declaw their cats for trivial reasons, the veterinary profession is tacitly condoning a shallow, consumerist attitude to animals. To say they are doing it to save cat lives, only makes matters worse in my view. James Serpell serpell@pobox.upenn.edu From: IN%"GREENBER%TWSUVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU" 1-MAR-1995 11:30:10.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Colleagues: We are interested in the work done by Ian Dunbar. Can you refer us to any reviews of his work? or assessments? or your comments. Thanks Gary Greenberg Department of Psychology Wichita State University Wichita, Kansas 67260 tel. 316-689-3823 fax. 316-689-3086 e-mail GREENBER @ TWSUVM From: IN%"E.Kinnaird@mailbox.uq.oz.au" "Emily Kinnaird" 1-MAR-1995 19:16:24.50 To: IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu" "James A. Serpell" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Cat Declaw (fwd) On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, James A. Serpell wrote: > > > > The thing that disturbs me is the way the veterinary profession in N. > America has accepted the declawing solution without even really > considering possible alternatives. As if the animal itself is just like a > suit of clothes that can be trimmed or taken in at the seams to fit the > owner. There has been virtually no useful research on why cats choose to > scratch particular pieces of furniture and not others, or on why some > cats scratch and others don't. Maybe plastic claw caps do offer a humane > solution? Is the veterinary profession looking into this? I doubt it. And > > By complying with owners' wishes to declaw their cats for trivial > reasons, the veterinary profession is tacitly condoning a shallow, > consumerist attitude to animals. To say they are doing it to save cat > lives, only makes matters worse in my view. > > James Serpell > > serpell@pobox.upenn.edu > Yes, the veterinary profession is looking into the option of plastic caps- there is a product called Soft Paws that has been available for several years in the U.S. and is now available in Australia. I do think that a bigger picture needs to be considered here as well. The neglect/abuse of cats is of horrible proportions. Millions or cats are killed every year as a result of the failure of people to take responsibility for animal control. Others are hit by cars,savaged by dogs, fight each other repeatedly, suffering bacterial and viral infections as a result, are heavily parasitised, and may be fed only at random intervals. The owners who have their cats declawed are often the very people who do take responsibilty for their cats and have them as very intimate members of their families. Given the realistic big picture, I do not think that these people need to be condemned quite so severely or to have their very real concerns about keeping a pet in the current urban environment minimised. Let's get real about where the true injustices for cats rest. Emily Kinnaird, DVM From: IN%"D.B.MORTON@BHAM.ac.uk" 2-MAR-1995 02:41:20.01 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cat Declaw (fwd) Emily Kinnaird wrote: >> I do think that a bigger picture needs to be considered here as well. The neglect/abuse of cats is of horrible proportions. Millions or cats are killed every year as a result of the failure of people to take responsibility for animal control. Others are hit by cars,savaged by dogs, fight each other repeatedly, suffering bacterial and viral infections as a result, are heavily parasitised, and may be fed only at random intervals. << So does the logic here run that because so many children are dying of starvation and disease in 3rd World countries we shouldn't worry about the ethnic cleansing in the war in Bosnia because it is only small by comparison? Cineramascope should not obscure or diminish the 8mm cine. Surely vets ought to be concerned about all perceived animal 'injustices' especially if they have a professional responsibility to protect animals, that is their role as seen by society, and they have taken an oath to do so?. Do not these caring owners need educating in their responsibilities to their pets? They may be too 'utilitarian' over declawing but also about other aspects of animal care. As James Serpell points out value judgements come in here and the veterinary profession should be leading not condoning and avoiding the issues. David Morton Prof.David.B.Morton | Janet: D.B.Morton@uk.ac.bham Biomedical Science and Ethics | Internet: D.B.Morton@bham.ac.uk The Medical School | University of Birmingham | Birmingham | Tel: +44 - (0)121 414 3616 B15 2TT, UK Fax: +44 - (0)121 414 6979 From: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" 2-MAR-1995 09:43:32.76 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: course in ethical issues Here is the detailed information about the June 24-29, 1995, course Etical Issues of Animal Research. Will you please help us publicize the course by forwarding this message to other e-mail network that you know of. Thank you very much. Moheba Hanif Course Coordinator Tel: (202) 687-6833 A course on: ETHICAL ISSUES OF ANIMAL RESEARCH June 24 - 29, 1995 A course organized by the Kennedy Institute of Ethics at Georgetown University, Washington, D.C. ETHICAL ISSUES OF ANIMAL RESEARCH This course, funded in part by the Ethics and Values Program of the National Science Foundation and organized by the Kennedy Institute of Ethics, will be held on campus at Georgetown University, Washington, D.C., from 6pm Saturday, June 24, through 2pm Thursday, June 29, 1995. OBJECTIVES AND WHO SHOULD ATTEND This is a multi-disciplinary course for those broadly interested in the profound questions of ethics and animal use. The course will present a well-balanced, wide range of moral perspectives on the ethical dilemmas of balancing human benefits against animal harms in scientific research, testing, and education. Course attendance should help individuals critique their personal viewpoints and to respect other persons' viewpoints. Participants will include biological, bio-medical, and social scientists, clinicians (vet-erinarians and physicians), and those with a background in the humanities and philosophy. The course will enhance the experience of Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee members, and others responsible for training programs within academia or industry. SCHOLARSHIPS/TRAVEL ALLOWANCES A very limited amount of financial support is available. Priority will be given to: a) persons from academia or industry who are committed to use the knowledge gained at the course in future instruction; b) senior faculty who have an influence over college curriculum such as department heads; and c) faculty members who will work in pairs either to develop a joint course or to provide mutual support in some way to use the material gained in the course. To apply, write to the course co-directors stating whether you currently teach or would like to teach material related to this course, what you hope to fulfill once you have attended the course, your role in influencing college curriculum development or professional training programs, and any financial assistance you are seeking. COURSE CONTENT A highlight of the program is a one-day session led by four philosophers who are major spokespersons for contrasting views on animal experimentation, both for and against. The session is: _ Tom L. Beauchamp Carl Cohen (provisional) R. G. Frey Tom Regan Opposing Views on the Moral Standing of Animals and Whether Animals have Rights Other plenary sessions include: _ Robert M. Veatch, Value-Laden Science and Vulnerable Research Subjects _ John P. Gluck, The Nature of Animal Minds: What You Ask is What You See _ Josina M. Makau, Analyzing Opposing Arguments _ David B. Morton, Assessment of Animal Suffering _ Joanne Zurlo, Alternatives: Refinement, Replacement and Reduction _ Rebecca Dresser, Institutional Animal Care and Use Committees: Virtues, Drawbacks, and Future _ Edmund D. Pellegrino, Integrity in Professional Life _ David B. Morton and John P. Gluck, A Model Syllabus for Teaching Animal Ethics Resource Materials for Participants include: _ Case studies illustrating ethical dilemmas involving human use of animals _ Instructional videos on animal research _ Generous quantities of articles _ Access to the National Reference Center for Bioethics Literature at the Kennedy Institute of Ethics which contains the most complete collection of materials on biomedical ethics in the world. On-line searches of the Institute-produced database called Bioethicsline can be made. LODGING There are two lodging options. The Georgetown University Guest House is a full-service hotel operated by Marriott. If you wish to stay at the Guest House, the conference rate is $109 per night single occupancy, $124 per night double occupancy. To reserve a room, write or call the Georgetown University Guest House, 3800 Reservoir Rd, N.W., Washington, D.C., 20007, Telephone (202) 687-3200, FAX (202) 687-3291. Please reserve a room by May 20, 1995, as the above prices and room availability are not guaranteed after this date. Some rooms are available in the campus dormitory at approximately $50 per night. Dormitory rooms are spartan (2 single beds, air conditioning, housekeeping services, and private baths, but no TV or telephone). For a dormitory room, please let the course coordinator know by marking the appropriate space on the attached application, and we will make your reservation. We strongly advise everyone to reside at Georgetown University because much of the intellectual exchange occurs over meals or during the evening hours. Dress is casual. June daytime temperatures in Washington are usually in the 80s. REGISTRATION FEE The registration fee is $500 if paid by June 1, and $525 for registration on June 2 or later. This fee covers tuition, course materials, a reception, and also breakfast, lunch, and refreshment breaks each day. The fee does not cover lodging or dinner on Sunday through Wednesday evenings. Registrants who withdraw will receive $450 refund if the Institute is notified in writing one day before the course starts. Please complete and detach the following application. REGISTRATION FORM I wish to register for the course Ethical Issues of Animal Research, June 24-29, 1995. Name: Occupation and/or job title: Your institution: Preferred mailing address: Phone (W): (H): E-Mail: Fax: Do you currently teach about ethics and animals; if so to what constituency of persons? To what constit- uency do you intend to teach about ethics and animals in the future? Please mark appropriate places. Current Future Current Future ___ graduate students ____ ___ veterinary students____ ___ undergraduates ______ ___ investigators ________ ___ medical students _____ ___ other, specify _______ Do you want a dormitory room? Yes No Do you want to share a dormitory room? Yes No Please list any special needs: By which method will you pay the registration fee? Personal check Visa Account number MasterCard Account number Expiration date ______-_______ Signature Mail to: Moheba Hanif, Course Coordinator, Kennedy Institute of Ethics, Georgetown University, Washington, D.C., 20057. Tel: 202-687-6833 Fax: 202-687-6770. E-mail: hanifm@guvax.georgetown.edu. [you could apply by e-mail, or ask for a brochure to be sent out to you] Don't forget to send your CV. COURSE FACULTY CO-DIRECTORS F. Barbara Orlans, PhD, Senior Research Fellow, Kennedy Institute of Ethics, Georgetown University. Her book, In the Name of Science: Issues in Responsible Animal Experimentation, was published by Oxford University Press in 1993. Tom L. Beauchamp, PhD, Professor of Philosophy, Senior Research Scholar, Kennedy Institute of Ethics, Georgetown University. He is co-author of Principles of Biomedical Ethics, Oxford University Press, Fourth Edition, 1994. PLANNING COMMITTEE MEMBERS John P. Gluck, PhD, Professor, Department of Psychology, University of New Mexico, Albuquerque. Originally a comparative psycho-logist specializing in learning ability of nonhuman primates, he is now engaged in the study of the ethical justification of animal research. Stephen P. Schiffer, DVM, MS, Director, Animal Research Resources Facility, Georgetown University, Associate Professor of Cell Biology, School of Medicine. He is board certified in veterinary internal medicine and laboratory animal medicine. OTHER SPEAKERS Carl Cohen, PhD, Professor of Philosophy, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. (Provisional) He is author of the 1986 article in the New England Journal of Medicine, "The Case for the Use of Animals in Biomedical Research." Rebecca Dresser, JD, Professor, School of Law and Center for Biomedical Ethics, Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio. She has served as a member of four Institutional Animal Care and Use Committees and has written extensively on ethical issues. R. G. Frey, PhD, Professor of Philosophy, Bowling Green State University, Ohio. He is author of numerous writings on ethics and animal ethics including the book Interests and Rights: The Case Against Animals, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1980. Joanne Zurlo, PhD, toxicologist and Associate Director, Center for Alternatives to Animal Testing, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore. Her laboratory-based research has included studies in chemical carcinogenesis and in vitro toxicology. Josina M. Makau, PhD, Professor and Academic Planner, California State University, Monterey Bay, where she will develop curricula in practical and applied ethics. She is the author of Reasoning and Communication, Wadsworth, Belmont, CA, 1990. David B. Morton, PhD, MRCVS, Professor, Biomedical Science and Ethics, Medical School, University Birmingham, U.K. As a veterinarian, he is active in establishing public policy on animal issues and he conducts research on animal pain assessment and environmental enrichment. Edmund D. Pellegrino, MD, Director, Center for Clinical Bioethics, and John Carroll Professor of Medicine and Medical Ethics, Georgetown University. He is renowned internationally for his teaching and scholarship in internal medicine and medical ethics. Tom Regan, PhD, Professor, Department of Philosophy and Religion, North Carolina State University, Raleigh. He is a leading animal rights activist and author of The Case for Animal Rights, University of California Press, Berkeley, 1983, and other books on animal issues. Robert M. Veatch, PhD, Director, Kennedy Institute of Ethics, Professor of Medical Ethics and Philosophy, Georgetown University. His books include The Patient as Partner: A Theory of Human-Experimentation Ethics. His focus is the role of values in science and medicine. From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 2-MAR-1995 17:08:32.01 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: remote heart rate monitoring Hello all, I am interested in doing some studies involving heart rate monitoring on cattle. Some work would involve static animals, restrained in a weigh scale for example. Other situations would require remote telemetry from cattle in an open field, preferably with the facility to record data from several animals simultaneously. I would be interested to hear from anyone with experience of either type of situation, especially if they could give some advice on equipment available and practical problems with using it. Thanks Jon Watts University of Saskatchewan wattsjon@duke.usask.ca From: IN%"ujhhtpo@ucl.ac.uk" "ujhhtpo" 3-MAR-1995 06:34:26.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Animal Welfare February Contents ANIMAL WELFARE ISSN 0962-7286 __________________________________________________________________________ Volume 4 Number 1 February 1995 __________________________________________________________________________ CONTENTS EDITORIAL 1 ARTICLES Zebra finch behaviour and effect of modest enrichment of standard cages 3 H Jacobs, N Smith, P Smith, L Smyth, P Yew, P Saibaba and J Hau Welfare aspects of the commercial slaughter of whales 11 S C Kestin Factors influencing pig deaths during transit: an analysis 29 of drivers_ reports T A Abbott, H J Guise, E J Hunter, R H C Penny, P J Baynes and C Easby Environmental enrichment for laying hens P spherical objects 41 in the feed trough C M Sherwin Some factors affecting resting behaviour of sheep in slaughterhouse 53 lairages after transport from farms A M Jarvis and M S Cockram REPORTS AND COMMENTS 61 Game rearing practice Proceedings of ANZCCART conference ANZCCART Primatology projects at your fingertips Animal experimentation BST Codes of animal welfare Companion animal studies BOOK AND VIDEO REVIEWS 66 A Far Cry from Noah: The Live Export Trade in Calves, Sheep and Pigs Hedgehogs First Aid and Nursing for Wild Birds There's a Pig in My Pasta The Zoo Inquiry Animal Theology BOOKS AND VIDEOS RECEIVED 76 Published by Universities Federation for Animal Welfare 8 Hamilton Close, South Mimms, Potters Bar, Herts EN6 3QD, UK Tel: +44(0)1707 658202 Fax: +44(0)1707 649279 Subscription rates #50/US$100 (UFAW members #40/US$80) per annum __________________________________________________________________________ From: IN%"WALLAM@URIACC.URI.EDU" 3-MAR-1995 06:46:05.30 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: remote heart rate monitoring request I have been extensively involved with monitoring heart rates in wild free-ranging and semi-free ranging ungulates. Our work involved telemetry implants. Can you tell me more about your problem. Do you need implants or would external transmitters do ? ********************************************************** MARK C. WALLACE WALLAM@URIACC.URI.EDU DEPT. NATURAL RESOURCES SCIENCE (401) 792-4543 UNIVERSITY OF RHODE ISLAND FAX (401) 792-4561 KINGSTON, RI 02881 ********************************************************** From: IN%"LBARTOS@earn.cvut.cz" "Ludek Bartos" 4-MAR-1995 10:20:40.26 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Electronic taggs Dear all, We are trying to get any information on electronic tagging for our ethological studies on red deer. We need to identify individuals in a confined herd. According to emotional reasons of the owner (...), we can use neither collars nor any other visible marking. Nevertheless, allegedly Somebody Saw Somewhere on TV...: Electronic implants consisting of an electromagnetic coil and a microchip. The implants may be placed subcutaneously, e.g. at the base of the ear. Contrary to common microchips, these should be decoded on rather long ranges of up to several tens of metres. Could anybody of you help us to locate the producer (if such a system really exists)? Any alternative suggestions? I am sending this question into Ethology, Applied Ethology, and DeerMail nets. So forgive me, if you get it several times. Thank you for help. Ludek Bartos Email: lbartos@earn.cvut.cz Ethology Group (lbartos@csearn.bitnet) Research Institute Tel.: +422/750 387 of Animal Production (VUZV) Fax.: +422/750 690 CZ-104 00 Praha 10-Uhrineves +422/759 362 Czechia ----------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"H.HOPSTER@ID.AGRO.NL" "Hans Hopster" 6-MAR-1995 02:36:14.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Heart rate monitoring in dairy cows Dear all, I'd like to respond to Jon Watts question concerning remote heart rate monitoring in cattle and I assume that my comments may also interest others. In the last three years, we extensively used the Polar Sport Tester for non-invasive and remote measurements of heart rate in dairy cows. The results of a validation study in dairy cows were recently published in 1994 in the Can. J. Anim. Sci., 74: 465-474. I included the abstract in this message. When you are interested in the full paper, just send a request to my E-mail address and I will send you a reprint. In the last three years, we monitored heart rates in dairy cows for more than 200 hours during short-lasting stressful situations (isolation, restraint, novel environment, separation from their calf) in which cows were exposed to psychological stressors. Generally speaking, I am quite satisfied in using the Polar equipment although there are some restrictions. For instance, the Polar monitor calculates heart rates, based on a pulse-to-pulse time-averaging algorithm, at 5, 15 or 60 s intervals (depending on what interval you select). As far as I know, the system uses two algorithms to calculate an average heart rate value. One is active during gradual changes in heart rate. It uses a fixed number of 16 successive beat to beat intervals (R-R) to for calculating a moving average. This also means that the faster heart beats follow one another, the quicker the moving average is adjusted to the actual heart rate. The other algorithm enables the system to cope with large and sudden changes in heart rate. This should shorten the delay between large changes in heart and the displayed average value. Thus when your experimental question concerns detailed changes within the electrocardiogram or in beat-to-beat intervals occurring within very short periods (seconds), the moving average algorithm of the Polar system will smoothen these and I think you better use systems which record successive beat-to-beat intervals (or direct wire ECG). On the other hand, when you don't need to record detailed changes in beat-to-beat intervals and the 5-s moving average value is detailed enough, the Polar system is suitable. ABSTRACT In three experiments, a commercial non-invasive heart-rate monitor, (PST Polarū Sport Tester) was validated for use with dairy cows. First, 10 monitors were tested using a pulse gene- rator, which produced pulses at levels between 30 and 240 bpm. PST values and generated beats were highly correlated (r=0.97) but with varying delay (5-55 s) depending on pulse-rate level. In a second experiment, 10 dairy cows were quietly standing or exercising on a treadmill while their heart rates were recorded by direct-wire electrocardiograph (ECG) as well as the PST. Correlations between ECG and PST values during standing (0.88) and exercising (0.72) were significant and differed between cows. During standing, inter-beat interval and PST standard deviations were significantly correlated (Rsp=0.76), as were their coefficients of variation (Rsp=0.89). The third experiment showed that the heart rate of 10 dairy cows increased rapidly immediately after an individual was isolated from the herd. Cows showed no obvious signs of being hampered by the equipment during 1-h trials. Hoping this information is useful Hans Hopster Institute for Animal Science and Health (ID-DLO) Research Branch Zeist Email: H.HOPSTER@ID.AGRO.NL P.O. Box 501 3700 AM Zeist The Netherlands From: IN%"MURN@URIACC.URI.EDU" "Murn Nippo" 6-MAR-1995 15:32:50.54 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Sheep Housing A question for the sheep folk out there....basically a management question, but obviously welfare comes into the discussion. A local manager is using a manure pack as his bedding, claiming that it keeps things warmer and is less expensive. I see lambs and ewes stained with feces, and a great opportunity for parasites to have a party. How can I (or should I) convince this person to clean out some, most, or all of the manure pack and provide some fresh, dry bedding. Am I off base here? (Gad, I feel like I have just written a letter to Dear Abby). I have noted that there has been some discussion on redoing the Guide for the Care and Use of Agricultural Animals. There is no mention of bedding for sheep in the Guide. Perhaps we do need to think about a new edition. Dr. Murn M. Nippo Phone 401-792-2477 Dept. Fish., Animal & FAX 401-792-4017 Veterinary Science University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 USA From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 6-MAR-1995 16:11:21.59 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cattle HR monitoring. Hello all. Many thanks to those people that responded on the net or privately to my request for information about HR monitoring. I've (now) seen Hans Hopster's paper evaluating the Polar Sport Tester. A couple of other people have also told me of their experiences with this system. It sounds as though it might well be suitable for at least some of the measurements I could envisage making. Could anyone give me an address for the company that makes the device? Do they have a a Canadian or U.S. agent? I would like to get my hands on some product information. Some of the tests I would like to do would involve measuring very short-term responses to specific stimuli in a free-moving situation such as a feedlot pen. For example the noise of a slamming gate, or changes in the behaviour of a person in visual range. It seems that the PST is less responsive to sudden changes of heart rate, and since the device functions as a logger, its delay in responding would probably cause difficulties in linking response to the time of the stimulus presentation in a convincing way. For these tests I suppose we need some sort of telemetering device which could transmit (near) real-time data (perhaps succesive interbeat intervals) over a distance of 25 - 200 metres. It would be useful to have transponders on several animals at once and be able to record simultaneously from more than one, or be able to tune in to each selectively. I would like to avoid implanted transponders if at all possible. I need some sort of externally mounted, easy to fit (to minimise stress on the animals) device, which can be relied upon to remain in situ and functional for at least two or three days and can afterwards be recycled onto another animal........................................ .......and I want it all for less than $3.50 (Canadian)! Seriously though, any thoughts or experiences you might have which could help me would be very welcome. I would particularly like to solve the short-term, remote telemetry problem in a satisfactory, non-invasive and affordable way. Tell me about manufacturers and their equipment if you have experience of it. But also, tell me what kinds of glue work well, what electrode sites are best. Can you imagine a practicable way of using acoustic or doppler monitoring, and how could you interpret the data? Lastly, if you are like me, and have no experience of these techniques, I would still value your speculations. Thanks Jon Watts (wattsjon@duke.usask.ca) Dept of Herd Med. & Therio. Western Colleg of Vet. Med. University of Saskatchewan From: IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu" 6-MAR-1995 20:09:11.20 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cattle HR monitoring. Jon, By now I am sure that someone on the net has given you information about the systems made by Minimitter and Telonics. They are true telemetry systems, but there are also limitations with the systems. I have been doing HR telemetry with those systems for about 14 years. Actually, I started with Jerry Stewart, who sold his system to Minimitter. Telonics is relatively new in the game. We just did a side-by side comparison of Telonics and Minimiter and found that they do not seem to be meaningfully different, but are much better than the systems we started with 14 years ago. Our article in J. Anim. Sci. 1994. 72:2260 will give you an idea of the type of variation and problems you can run into when measuring HR. The beat-by-beat plot shown in that paper was made using our 12 year old "Minimitter" transmitters that have been on pigs, cattle, sheep and horses. If you want more info, or if we can help you, let me know. Ted Friend Ted Friend email: T-Friend@TAMU.EDU From: IN%"APN6MAV@SOUTH-01.NOVELL.LEEDS.ac.uk" "VARLEY M.A." 7-MAR-1995 02:35:00.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: The address for Polar Electro is Polar Electro OY, Hakamaantie, 18, SF-90440, Kempele, Finland Phone +358-1-556166 Product name: Polar Sport Tester. With our pig work , we just used a double human belt hooked together around the thorax and this was sufficient without glues to hold it in place. Yours sincerely Mike Varley Dr Mike Varley Animal Physiology and Nutrition University of Leeds, Leeds, England Tel Int + 44 532 333062 Fax Int + 44 532 333072 Fax/Teleph. Home Int + 44 937 845541 Mobile 0860 102531 e-mail apn6mav@leeds.ac.uk From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "ROBIN E WALKER" 7-MAR-1995 03:09:55.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Sheep Housing Around 1963-64 when I was still an undergraduate and horrified by intensive poultry/pig/and calf rearing the agricultural community attempted to intensify the husbandry of sheep by housing them indoors on slatted floors (as I recall). The experimental sheep promptly died and saved their species from a similar fate. I cannot give you references. I was raised on a farm and rode after foxes and milked cows and would still slaughter and butcher my own meat if pressed. I would not now hunt for pleasure. The Poultry in the 50@s were in arks which were moved to fresh grass daily and the number of laying hens per ark was not great. The best milking system in my mind was the outdoor bale which was also moved around the field. Pigs had yards and paddocks. But of course it was all deemed uneconomic. By the time I qualified I wanted nothing to do with modern farming. I always felt that those sheep who died on the slats were sort of martyrs. Please don't tell me that people are trying to do this again. (I remember the deep litter = manure pack? chickens had horrible fates too) Robin Walker Centre of Applied EThology c/o 78 Bromyard Rd. Worcester WR2 5DA England. From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "ROBIN E WALKER" 7-MAR-1995 06:47:55.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Bonding Elizabeth wrote about pair bonding in shrews All dear, I am a post-doc on the University of Bayreuth,Germany.I did'nt work about domesticated animals but about wild animals in laboratory:Tupajas or tree shrews. Tree shrews can live in lab without problems, and we can make ethological and physiological... I believe that much of interest has ben done with voles in U.S.A. In the Guardian newspaper summer 1994 there was an article about prairie vs mountain voles and their repective aggression/bonding differences. A major hormonal player was deemed to be vasopressin.The article cited Science as the sorce but I have failed to locate this work via the RCVS library service, via Ovid or BIDS. I have legged around the local college library (they cannot find last year's entire run of Science!). I am particularly keen to recieve information on this topic. I have just found from istp TI- VASOPRESSIN AND THE REGULATION OF HAMSTER SOCIAL-BEHAVIOR AU- ALBERS, HE;HENNESSEY, AC;WHITMAN, DC; SO- OXYTOCIN IN MATERNAL, SEXUAL, AND SOCIAL BEHAVIORS PY- 1992 VO- 652 CH- 53 PG- 227-242 Some of my dogs on phenobarbitone for phobia or anxiety problems (they do get better!) seem to fall deeply and stickily "in love" with their owners. MY hunch is that this is vasopressin mediated but so far no-one can tell me why. Robin Walker COAPE From: IN%"SMILLMAN@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Suzanne Millman" 7-MAR-1995 09:47:55.86 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Bonding The mentioned article on pair bonding in voles is also available in a back issue of Scientific American (from last summer?). Cheers, Suzanne Millman University of Guelph From: IN%"CARAVE@cc.usu.edu" 7-MAR-1995 11:55:51.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sheep bedding Murn, I don't consider myself a sheep folk but will offer my opinion, not backed by research only observation. It is common practice among dairy producers with open shed housing to start bedding the shed in the fall, adding bedding as needed to form a manure pack during the winter. This does indeed keep the cows warm and comfortable. The manure pack should be added to frequently to keep the animals clean and dry. The heat generated within the manure packdestroys most harmful micro-organisms. On the home farm when I was growing up my father fattened lambs in an open shed facility with a manure pack as you describe. Adding fresh bedding frequently is a must, and is the reason many dairy producers switched to freestalls which require far less bedding to keep the cows clean. Clive W. Arave ADVS Dept. Utah State University Logan, UT 84322-4815 carave@cc.usu.edu From: IN%"lconnor@bldgagric.lan1.umanitoba.ca" "Connor, Laurie" 8-MAR-1995 01:27:33.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Sheep Housing Murn RE: your concern about the sheep on the manure pack. We have had sheep on straw for many years at the research farm. When fresh straw is added routinely the pack can build quite well and the sheep can stay reasonably clean. We did not check the manure pack temperatures, but when the area was cleaned out before much of a pack developed, there seemed to be more problems with ammonia odour and there seemed to be, as one would expect, less heat generated. Leaving the manure pack to develop by adding straw regularly seemed to keep the area and animals more comfortable. We also have market hogs as well as sows on deep manure packs throughout the year. The addition of straw to facilitate good pack development and to provide dry bedding is quite critical. The manure packs generate alot of heat. Pack temperatures that we have measured exceeded 95 F at 6 inches depth with increasing temperature down to 24 inches. Parasites have not been a problem and health in the shelters, which generally have good air quality, has been excellent. The animals stay quite clean in the cooler weather when they readily use the freshly strawed areas. This does not directly answer your question but you may find the info. of some interest and use. Laurie Connor U. of Manitoba From: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.edinburgh.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 8-MAR-1995 09:54:44.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Ethological Youth Camp in Hungary Third International Ethological Youth Congress, 23rd July-1st August 1995, Jakotpuszta and Kaposvar, Hungary. Based on camping and tourist accommodation in one of the most beautiful regions of Hungary, this will have scientific sessions on many aspects of applied ethology, visits to universities and research institutes, excursions to national parks and zoos and tours to farms and husbandry systems. Contact Tibor Keszthelyi, Godollo University of Agricultural Sciences, H-2103 Godollo, Pater Karoly u. 1-3, Hungary. Tel 3628 310200, Fax 3628 320997. Reports of the first two of these camps in 1989 and 1992 were very positive, and they are now appealing both for young people to attend and for 'outstanding and young-minded tutors and professors' to give talks, particularly review papers (I think they will be concentrated in a two day session in the middle of the week). The talks will be 45 minutes, but may take longer if there is lively discussion. Accommodation and meals for such speakers will be covered, but they can not pay travel costs. The subject area is a broad coverage of ethology, but with a strong emphasis on applied ethology. Tibor writes: 'The location of the event is a wonderful valley: we shall not be in closed lecture halls, but the necessary technical facilities are ensured. We want to show a lot of films. It would be good if you could send us some video material, and make 'In Memoriam' exhibitions about the outstanding professors of ethology (Wood-Gush and his colleagues). 'We are looking forward to meeting a lot of students, young researchers and everybody who has something to say about ethology, nature and the whole world.' Mike Appleby From: IN%"JSChurch@eworld.com" 8-MAR-1995 18:05:02.65 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Singapore sewer snake nabbed Singapore's 7-foot sewer snake nabbed SINGAPORE, Mar. 4 (UPI) - Residents of a Singapore condominium complex are breathing more easily after the capture of a seven-foot (2. 1-meter) python in their neighborhood. Officials believe the snake may be the one residents say they have seen emerging from their toilet bowls over the past two years, the Straits-Times newspaper reported Saturday. At least six people in Singapore's City Towers complex have complained of being terrorized by a snake with ``a head about the size of a fist'' popping out of their plumbing, usually at night. ``I used to visit the toilet in the dark at night, but now I switch the light on and watch for bubbles before I do anything,'' one resident said. A statement released to residents this week by the compound's management said a snake had been caught in one of the units, but some remain skeptical. ``The workers told me that all they found was rubbish and sand,'' said Indira Damodran, 59, a housewife who lives in City Towers. Pest control workers descended upon the complex last Saturday and Sunday, inserting probes into toilet bowls and manholes and pouring chemicals in attempt to flush out the reptile. One resident who declined to be named said a director of the company which manages the estate told her a seven-foot python had been caught. Francis Lim, assistant curator at the Singapore zoo, told United Press International it was possible that one or more snakes had made their way into the island city-state's sewer system and from there could crawl into toilets. Based on resident's descriptions, Lim guessed that they snake may be a reticulated python. ``Pythons are very adaptable,'' Lim said, ``and they love water.'' Lim said the danger to residents was minimal because pythons are constrictors, which kill animals by encircling and crushing them, and are not known to strike at humans. From: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.edinburgh.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 9-MAR-1995 04:43:58.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (Fwd) RE: declawing Forwarded with permission: From: "Katherine A. Houpt" I am upset that US vets are portrayed as declawing cats as a main stay of their income. It is not true that people can easily "rehome' their adult domestic shorthaired cats. I feel we should be sympathetic to the owners and offer all the usual methods of inducing cats to scratch non-furniture, discuss glueing on claw covers etc., but be aware that a spouse is probably saying either the cat stops scratching today or one or the other of us leaves. There are various ways to declaw; the crudest way to is to use a dog nail cutter. The best way is to use proper surgical instruments. The wounds can be sutured, glued or left to heal under bandages. Postoperative analgesics should be used. Tendonectomy can be performed instead, but the claws will have to be trimmed. I believe that owners who allow cats to run free (where they endanger wildlife) have the wrong priorities because the cats are often hit by cars. The pain of an orthopedic procedure is much greater than that of declawing, but it is not considered unethical to perform that surgery which is being done at the convenience of the owner who does not want to restrain a cat indoors. You can post this if you wish - now that I have spent 20 minutes correcting my typing and taking out "furious" . Kathe From: IN%"ujhhtpo@ucl.ac.uk" "ujhhtpo" 9-MAR-1995 08:49:04.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Reply to Katherine A. Houpt The debate re cat declawing is clearly polarised. It seems to me that the Brits need to find out why cat scratch fever/furniture destruction are worse in the States (If they are!), and the Americans might profitably learn from the UK experience. Lets stop going around in circles, defending entrenched positions and see if we can improve welfare. Possibly some exchange visits from the respective veterinary professions might be useful. Now to add some fuel! Katherine writes: I believe that owners who allow cats to run free (where they endangerwildlife) have the wrong priorities because the cats are often hit by cars. Thepain of an orthopedic procedure ismuch greater than that of declawing, but it is not considered unethical toperform that surgery which is being done at the convenience of the ownerwho does not want to restrain a cat indooe) have the wrong priorities because the cats are often hit by cars. Quite a lot of humans are too! Should we lock them away as well? Robert Hubrecht UFAW Trevor.poole@ucl.ac.uk From: IN%"syh@aber.ac.uk" "syh" 9-MAR-1995 08:50:13.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: HO code vs EC Directive I am currently writing up my PhD thesis on social behaviour and immunocompetence in group-housed lab rabbits and would be grateful to anyone for clarification of the following for (correct) use in my introduction: Which came first? The HO Code of Practice on Housing and Care of Animals used in Scientific Procedures or the EC Directive 86/09/EEC (I think is its ref). Until yesterday I thought the EC Directive was first, and the HO Code was drawn up to bring British practice in line with European Guidelines. NOT SO, I was told by an HO Official, who was none too pleased with my conception of the order of events. He convinced me (almost) that the Guidelines in the Appendix of the EC Directive were based on the RS/UFAW Recommendations (as was the HO Code of Practice). With thanks from Wales, Suzanne Held syh@aber.ac.uk Institute of Biological Sciences Uni of Wales, Aberystwyth Aberystwyth Dyfed SY23 3DA U.K. From: IN%"ir10000@hermes.cam.ac.uk" "I. Rochlitz" 9-MAR-1995 10:47:00.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: de-clawing (sorry, I just have to) I would like to add to the debate about de-clawing; no doubt one of the reasons damage to furniture is more of a problem in the States than in the uk is that alot more cats are confined indoors in the States. Professor Houpt seems to be advocating that it is better to house cats indoors-have there been any objective studies on the behaviour and welfare of cats living an entirely indoors existence? Behavioural problems are reported more commonly in cats housed indoors than in cats that have access to the outdoors.( Surely surgery to repair an injury sustained as a result of a road traffic accident is not done for the convenience of the owner, but for the welfare of the animal.) Nevertheless, there is a significant morbidity and mortality of cats involved in RTA's, as well as effects of cat predation on wildlife, but is confining cats indoors and declawing/tendonectomy the best solution? Would we advocate the same for dogs, if they were small enough/our apartments were big enough? By the way, I am not angry/furious, just genuinely interested in generating a useful debate. If a large number of cats end up being killed or left at animal shelters (where the majority are not re-homed ) because of scratching, maybe the U.K. ought to reconsider. In over 5 years ofsmall animal practice, I found that the problem of cat scratching could be dealt with by behavioural advice and regular claw trimming, although few cases were entirely indoor cats.Thank you for listening. Irene Rochlitz, Animal Welfare Group, Cambridge University. From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "ROBIN E WALKER" 9-MAR-1995 12:39:10.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Declawing Cats Katherine Houpt revises her typing for 20 minutes and removes the word "furious" before defending the practice of declawing cats. She is a foremost veterinary behaviourist. At the T.G.Hungerford Lectures in Australia in July 1993 she advanced the science of dog behaviourism to new pinnacles with the complete answer to dogs barking in the street. "Barking can be reprimanded by saying "Quiet" or "Shhh!" and, if necessary, holding the dog's mouth shut". p.62 She also overturned the entire corpus of received neurendocrinological knowledge of the hormonal basis of aggressive behaviour by revealing that oestrogen is the hormone of aggression. p53 Dr. Houpt clearly represents an important school of behaviourism. I wonder how I have practised for thirty years without depriving the cat of its claws. My mistake has been to try and consider what the animals is "for" in natural terms. It has seemed to me that the cat is a lone predator. It is exquisitely designed to stalk and hunt. It likes a territory and a den area. It is highly motivated to explore and shows "sensory specific satiety" to a marked degree as it tries novel foods. Not being social its emotional range is narrower, more "elemental", and perhaps this is why it is so esily crushed into a vegetative state by massive doses of progesterones. I have thought for some time that the "mental" health of any species depends upon the opportunity to rehearse or exercise the emotional programs of the brain. By means ,for example, of play or sham confrontations with con-specifics. The extent of my delusion troubles me now! I also have thought that birds, being,again exquisitely, designed for flight should be allowed opportunity for a great deal of flying. But of course I realize that confining them to tiny cages and cramped rooms protects them from injury. How remiss of us not to remove their little wings so that they can run around the floor safely! For thirty years I truly have not realized that the purpose of my Veterinary Oath was to protect the upholstery of household furniture! A sense of panic grips me as I write. How is that every cat I know is allowed out? Why are'nt they all in my orthopaedic clinic? Are British drivers more considerate? Are British cats less full of drugs than American cats? (I think that might be true. My school of behaviour uses them only when absolutely necessary.) I would not want to provoke Kathleen Houpt. She is after all full of oestrogen and might therefore be "furious". I will spend 20 minutes checking my typing and removing words such as "stupid" or perhaps "cruel". I will, however, leave in the word "sad". Robin Walker From: IN%"d0l0680@tam2000.tamu.edu" 9-MAR-1995 14:58:12.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Declawing cats In response to Robin Walker: So much for an intelligent discussion. Maybe your thirty years has been too much for you. Can you say "Bitter"? Is it the lack of estrogen that causes your problem? This discussion on cat declawing is very useful and both sides have valid points. What's wrong with opening our minds to see other points of view. Only then can we make an intelligent decision about the subject. I would like the discussion to continue and not be oppressed by someones bitter assault. I didn't leave any words out. don Donald C. Lay Jr. -------------------- Texas A&M University Applied Ethology d-lay@tamu.edu d0l0680@tam2000.tamu.edu WWW Home page http://tam2000.tamu.edu/~d0l0680 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" 9-MAR-1995 16:05:24.76 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sheathing those claws A word of advice. If you read a message on this network that makes you angry, I suggest you do the following. Spend an hour or so composing a truely acerbic reply, one that you are confident will destroy your opponent utterly. Let the bile flow. DO NOT SEND THE MESSAGE. Instead, spend the next 24 hours savouring the thought of your opponent, crushed by the brilliance of your repartee. Then destroy the message, unsent. Jeff Rushen From: SKYBLU::STOOKEY 9-MAR-1995 16:28:25.40 To: IN::"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: STOOKEY Subj: Archive files available Dear All, I have grouped the messages that have been posted on the Applied- ethology network and constructed archive files. Each file contains (almost all of) the messages that were posted during a particular month. The archive file names represent the month and year the messages appeared. The files available include: ARCHIVE11.93 ARCHIVE12.93 ARCHIVE1.94 ARCHIVE2.94 ARCHIVE3.94 ARCHIVE4.94 ARCHIVE5.94 ARCHIVE6.94 ARCHIVE7.94 ARCHIVE8.94 ARCHIVE9.94 ARCHIVE10.94 ARCHIVE11.94 ARCHIVE12.94 ARCHIVE1.95 INDEX.TXT To retrieve a particular file (ie ARCHIVE4.94) you must send a message to: Applied-ethology-request@sask.usask.ca on the first line of your message (NOT THE SUBJECT HEADER) you must type the command SEND [*]ARCHIVE4.94 To receive a copy of the index to all the archive files (includes the listing of the message senders and the subjects) you should use the command: SEND [*]INDEX.TXT ============================================================================== P.S. Some of the ARCHIVE files are missing messages that appeared during specific months. My disk quota was exceeded and messages were deleted (Sorry!). If you have saved Applied-ethology messages that do not appear in the ARCHIVE files you can forward them directly to me and I will add them to the appropriate file. Thanks for your help on this matter. Hope you find these ARCHIVEs useful; read in their entirety, you will find that we have had some very interesting and thought-provoking discussions. Joe ================================================ Dr. Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 0W0 Canada stookey@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"CROWELL-DAVIS.S@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 9-MAR-1995 16:46:25.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@saks.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Declawing Cats and Human Manners The internet is not an appropriate place for launching personal attacks at one's colleagues. A rule my mother's mother taught her, she taught me, and I am teaching my children (and I am sure you have all heard) is nevertheless a good one, if well worn.... "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." May we please get back to a thoughtful discussion? Regarding the suggestion that american veterinarians regard declawing as "bread and butter", I would have to tentatively disagree, pending the results of a properly conducted survey. Veterinarians in america are tremendously diverse, both in individual philosophies and in the types of clients they deal with. In informal discussions with numerous colleagues, I have encountered a range of opinions. Some do not consider declawing to present ethical problems and do consider it "bread and butter". Others have strong objections and refuse to declaw, even if it has economic consequences. Still others have reservations, ranging from mild to substantial, but bend to the economic reality that if a client is determined to have the procedure done and they refuse to, then the client may just take their cat to some other veterinarian in town who will, and who will also probably then become that cat's regular veterinarian. I have never encountered anyone who considered declawing the first thing to try if an owner complained of scratching, even among those who have absolutely no qualms about the surgery. On the contrary, many will do a lot of work with a client trying to resolve the problem in a non-surgical manner before agreeing to surgery. From: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" 9-MAR-1995 17:00:11.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Archive files available Dear All, I have grouped the messages that have been posted on the Applied- ethology network and constructed archive files. Each file contains (almost all of) the messages that were posted during a particular month. The archive file names represent the month and year the messages appeared. The files available include: ARCHIVE11.93 ARCHIVE12.93 ARCHIVE1.94 ARCHIVE2.94 ARCHIVE3.94 ARCHIVE4.94 ARCHIVE5.94 ARCHIVE6.94 ARCHIVE7.94 ARCHIVE8.94 ARCHIVE9.94 ARCHIVE10.94 ARCHIVE11.94 ARCHIVE12.94 ARCHIVE1.95 INDEX.TXT To retrieve a particular file (ie ARCHIVE4.94) you must send a message to: Applied-ethology-request@sask.usask.ca on the first line of your message (NOT THE SUBJECT HEADER) you must type the command SEND [*]ARCHIVE4.94 To receive a copy of the index to all the archive files (includes the listing of the message senders and the subjects) you should use the command: SEND [*]INDEX.TXT ============================================================================== P.S. Some of the ARCHIVE files are missing messages that appeared during specific months. My disk quota was exceeded and messages were deleted (Sorry!). If you have saved Applied-ethology messages that do not appear in the ARCHIVE files you can forward them directly to me and I will add them to the appropriate file. Thanks for your help on this matter. Hope you find these ARCHIVEs useful; read in their entirety, you will find that we have had some very interesting and thought-provoking discussions. Joe ================================================ Dr. Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 0W0 Canada stookey@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"mheeb@sanger.bio.uci.edu" "Michaela Heeb" 9-MAR-1995 18:23:34.45 To: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: seminal fluid lacking sperm Hi All, I've never introduced myself before, so I'll do so now before I start asking questions. . .I'm a sixth year graduate student in the Department of Psychobiology at the University of California in Irvine. . .I study central neural regulation of male sex behavior in the mongolian gerbil. I have identified a couple of areas in the brain that are activated in association with the ejaculatory component of male sex behavior (this should be in press soon). I am now going to try and eliminate ejaculatory ability without affecting other aspects of the behavior. One possible outcome of my experiment is no change in the gross motor pattern associated with ejaculation; but rather an affect on the sperm/seminal content. I'm now planning to do vaginal smears on all my females after each sex test and would like to gain information regarding: presence of sperm, seminal fluid presence (in case there are no sperm), and anything else that may indicate a change in the content of the seminal fluid. I've done sperm presence many times in the past by simple microscopic examination (with and without the aid of a Geimsa stain) but have spent about a week on my library's computer system attempting to gain some insight on how on earth I'm going to evaluate seminal fluid presence and any additional specifics that wouldn't cost me an arm and a leg in equipment (i.e. I don't have the equipment to start an in-situ study to identify Y-positive cells that are not sperm). I also understand that the acid-phosphatase test used in sexual assault victims is pretty human specific and that the high levels associated with human - males does not generalize to other mammals? Can anyone help? Or provide insight on some biochemical markers that would be specific to seminal fluid and not present in vaginal secretion? Thanks (in advance) from a grad student with one last set of experiments to go!!! Yup, here we have a lot of 6+ year PhD's ;) Missy Heeb \o/ --/~\-- |0 0| / \ / \ mheeb@darwin.bio.uci.edu / \ Dept. of Psychobiology | | University of California \ / Irvine \ / | |________/ From: IN%"mheeb@sanger.bio.uci.edu" "Michaela Heeb" 9-MAR-1995 19:14:03.99 To: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: seminal fluid lacking sperm Hi All, I've never introduced myself before, so I'll do so now before I start asking questions. . .I'm a sixth year graduate student in the Department of Psychobiology at the University of California in Irvine. . .I study central neural regulation of male sex behavior in the mongolian gerbil. I have identified a couple of areas in the brain that are activated in association with the ejaculatory component of male sex behavior (this should be in press soon). I am now going to try and eliminate ejaculatory ability without affecting other aspects of the behavior. One possible outcome of my experiment is no change in the gross motor pattern associated with ejaculation; but rather an affect on the sperm/seminal content. I'm now planning to do vaginal smears on all my females after each sex test and would like to gain information regarding: presence of sperm, seminal fluid presence (in case there are no sperm), and anything else that may indicate a change in the content of the seminal fluid. I've done sperm presence many times in the past by simple microscopic examination (with and without the aid of a Geimsa stain) but have spent about a week on my library's computer system attempting to gain some insight on how on earth I'm going to evaluate seminal fluid presence and any additional specifics that wouldn't cost me an arm and a leg in equipment (i.e. I don't have the equipment to start an in-situ study to identify Y-positive cells that are not sperm). I also understand that the acid-phosphatase test used in sexual assault victims is pretty human specific and that the high levels associated with human - males does not generalize to other mammals? Can anyone help? Or provide insight on some biochemical markers that would be specific to seminal fluid and not present in vaginal secretion? Thanks (in advance) from a grad student with one last set of experiments to go!!! Yup, here we have a lot of 6+ year PhD's ;) Missy Heeb \o/ --/~\-- |0 0| / \ / \ mheeb@darwin.bio.uci.edu / \ Dept. of Psychobiology | | University of California \ / Irvine \ / | |________/ From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "ROBIN E WALKER" 10-MAR-1995 01:25:20.19 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Declawing Cats A correspondent has taken me to task:- >>I will spend 20 minutes checking my typing and removing words such >>as "stupid" or perhaps "cruel". > >Perhaps it would have been better if you had waited 24 hours >and then checked that your message wasn't being too personal. I am being misunderstood . Let me clarify the matter:- I am not "attacking" Dr. Houpt! I am taking her opinions to task. I have great respect for her work. I am using her methodology to attempt to stop my wife's terriers from barking in the street. It is very embarrassing around here as they know who the dogs belong to. I will admit that we have encountered difficulties, probably due to our faulty technique. the dogs won't listen to "Quiet" or "Shhh" but they are Border Terriers and that may explain it. The technique of holding their mouths shut is effective up to a point. They still try to bark but it comes out as a "Snfff" "Snfff" which is at least less annoying to the pedestrians. We are working on this. I mention the views on oestrogen as a hormone of aggression as it is counter to everything else I have read and I admire the courage of anyone who seems to go against received wisdom. It certainly enlivens debates about aggression especially amongst the ladies in the audience. Being a foremost veterinary behaviourist Dr. Houpt's opinions will carry great weight and this is a problem because I think she is wrong about declawing. Houpt says >"I believe that owners who allow cats to run free (where they endanger wildlife) have the wrong priorities because the cats are often hit by cars. The pain of an orthopedic procedure is much greater than that of declawing, but it is not considered unethical to perform that surgery which is being done at the convenience of the owner who does not want to restrain a cat indoors."< The implication here is that those of us who do allow our cats out are either "cruel" or at best "stupid". According to this cats should be imprisoned all their lives. This justifies declawing? I object to this augument. Just as Dr. Houpt felt "furious" and left out the word. I felt after reading her letter that I was "cruel" or "stupid" on a number of issues from cat orthopaedics to concern for wildlife. But I "left the words out" because I don't think we should take these things personally. A another correspondent has advanced the excuse that:- >Still others have reservations, ranging from mild to substantial, >but bend to the economic reality that if a client is determined to >have the procedure done and they refuse to, then the client may >just take their cat to some other veterinarian in town who will, >and who will also probably then become that cat's regular >veterinarian. Indeed. And fireworks are sold to children over here with the same augument. "If I don't sell , someone else will!" A very senior Mortgage fund manager explained on national T.V. that his Society had lent overlarge sums of money to housebuyers "because if we had not..someone else would have.." I think that this type of augument is morally bankrupt and I am sure that many will agree. This is a welfare issue as the intervention from Robert Hubrecht of UWAW confirms. In the UK we do not declaw cats. Cat lovers is this country would find it despicable to declaw to preserve upholstery. I am not "angry" or "bitter" about this issue. But I think that someone has to take the side of the animal. Yours cordially Robin Walker From: IN%"Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se" 10-MAR-1995 01:37:25.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Stress in natural populations Dear all, I'm working on a survey on stress in free-living populations of animals, and have difficulties in locating relevant papers. Does anyone have any information on papers treating 'stress' indicators in natural groups of animals? I have seen some rather old papers on adrenal weights in rodents during different phases of the population cycle, and this is the kind of things I'm interested in. I could imagine studies of cortisol levels in populations exposed to starvation or ulcerations in populations with high predation pressure, for example. (Please don't start a discussion on what I understand by 'stress'). Another related point is: How far down in the animal kingdom is the concept of stress relevant? I assume all vertebrates show similar types of physiological and behavioural signs of not being able to cope with adverse conditions, but what about invertebrates? Some highly developed invertebrates, such as crustaceans, molluscs and definitely insects could be expected to show some kind of 'stress' reactions, I suppose. If we use a very broad definition of stress as 'reactions to very adverse conditions', could it even be that vertebrates and evertebrates have developed completely different types of reaction patterns? In that case, do they have any common funtional effects? Any information on things like this is most welcome! Per Jensen ******************************************************************* Per Jensen Professor of Ethology Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, Department of Animal Hygiene, Section of Ethology SKARA, SWEDEN E-mail: Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se ******************************************************************* From: IN%"Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se" 10-MAR-1995 01:38:01.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Transgenic animal welfare - again Dear all, Some of you might think I have been silenced by my discussion-partners, such as Jeff Rushen and Peter Sandoe on the subject of transgenic animal welfare. Well I have not, but i like to ruminate and think about the arguments, some of them being very good. As I stated in my original contribution on this subject, I have not formed any opinion yet on the matter, so I'm interested in all arguments. For the sake of the discussion though, I would like to defend the position that there are things about genetic manipulation that are so different from normal breeding, that our ethical and moral norms for normal animal breeding may not be sufficient to handle the new cases we may encounter. I have earlier argued three things: (1) Genetical manipulation differs from normal breeding in that normal breeding is confined to the existing genotypes, many of which are results of adaptation processes. (2) The speed of changes is so increased that unwanted side-effects may occur without them being discovered until too late. (3) There may occur unexpected effects due to the fact that genes in a new genetical environment may behave differently from what they do in their original surroundings. Against this, Rushen has argued that genetical manipulation is just like mutations, only more controlled. This may be correct, but it appears to me to be extremely rare that animal breeders sit around and wait for a real nice mutation to occur. Rather, the vast majority of all breeding has to do with selection among well-spread variations in a population, thereby moving slowly towards a desired goal. So, I still think this is the relevant contrast against which to discuss genetic manipulations. On the other hand, eventual mutations might well be treated ethically like a gene-manipulation. It seems unlikely that we would have allowed breeding of the Belgian blue if there would have been solid ethical rules around for breeding on mutations. Peter Sandoe has argued that the only ethically relevant issue is the welfare issue. With that point I have no troubles. In fact, in my original contribution on this subject, I stated that I only wanted to discuss the possible welfare aspects. I agree completely with Sandoe, and it may have been my reluctant, untrained sense of logic that led me to question his earlier expressed opinions. I agree. What matters is welfare. My problem is that I have not seen in what respect it matters. Can the matters be tackled with the same ethical considerations as those generally applied? Sandoe has argued that it can, and he is obviously supported by several others. Maybe he is right, I am not sure yet. Let me take a fictive (but realistic) example. An animal is produced with incerased growth capacity and is released into the population. Precautions are taken to keep the animals of this manipulated breed separate from others, but eventually, some farmer somewhere allows this animal to breed with non-manipulated individuals of the same species. It then so happens that there are so large genotypical differences between the group of individuals originally manipulated and the ones it now mates with, that completely new and untested gene-combinations occur. In this hypothetical case, a painful and lethal tumour form suddenly occurs in some offspring of the mixed lines. At this time, the farmer has sold and spread so many of the hybrids that it is impossible to locate them all, and in consequence, we have a situation were gene manipulation has severely decreased animal welfare in a way I think would be impossible with slow, selective breeding. With normal breeding, we also usually have a way back. Since we breed on average increases or decreases of various genotypes, we can mostly revert the procedure, whereas it may be impossible to completely get rid of a gene that has been introduced in a population. To handle situations like this, we may need rules like: "There must be secure and reliable screening methods available which make it possible to find and define each animal in a population carrying the manipulated gene" (as has been sugested in an article by Ingvar Ekesbo). I can't possibly think that rules like this would be necessary for normal breeding programs. Maybe this is not an 'ethically relevant' rule, and maybe this is what causes the apparent disagreements between me and Peter Sandoe. I'm willing to accept any designation of the argument. What matters to me is: There is a difference, we can not use the same rules and ways of thinking for genetical manipulation as we do for normal breeding. Best wishes, Per Jensen PS Peter: Of course I do not think your paper is superfluous! However, I found it somewhat superficial. Why can't the world communicate in Scandinavian languages? DS ******************************************************************* Per Jensen Professor of Ethology Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, Department of Animal Hygiene, Section of Ethology SKARA, SWEDEN E-mail: Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se ******************************************************************* From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@nlh10.nlh.no" 10-MAR-1995 02:59:56.28 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Textbook in farm animal ethology Dear colleagues, This is a request for a discussion about suitable textbooks in farm animal ethology. I am responsible for the teaching of ethology and applied ethology at Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural Univ. of Norway. Our teaching in ethology to animal science students consists of four courses: 1. An introductory course in basic ethology, with the following textbook: Manning & Dawkins, 1992. An Introduction to Animal Behaviour, 4th Ed. Cambridge Univ. Press 172 pp. 2. A course in behavioural ecology (which I prefer to call ecological ethology), with this textbook: Krebs and Davies, 1993. An Introduction to Behavioural Ecology, 3rd Ed. Blackwell, Oxford. 386 pp. 3. A course in farm animal ethology, in which the latest years we have used this textbook: Fraser & Broom, 1990. Farm Animal Behaviour and Welfare, 3rd Ed. Bailliere Tindall, London. Ch. 9-39. + additional papers on behaviour of mink, farm foxes and cats. 4. An advanced course at the MSc level, called special course in ethology, in which we choose one subject each year. Last year we treated cognitive ethology, and used this book: Carolyn Ristau (Ed.), 1991. Cognitive ethology. The minds of other animals. Lawrence Erlbaum, Hillsdale NJ. 313 pp. An interesting book which shows how difficult this area is. My problem now is that Fraser & Broom's book is out of print, without plans for reprinting it. Anyway, I think this book needs revision before it is printed again. I would like to know about other relevant textbooks and your experience with them (and how the students evaluate the book). The textbook should be based on some prior knowledge of basic ethology, and contain roughly about 300 pages. Best regards, Bjarne O. Braastad Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 From: IN%"hesih3@wptemp.kvl.dk" 10-MAR-1995 03:18:04.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: transgenic animals Dear All. I totally aggree, that the welfare aspect from the animals point of view probably is the only significant point. There may, however, at least for some of us be a human welfare problem because many people do not like a possible loss of authenticity in wild living species as for example the Red deer. Farmed Red deer is in Denmark considered as domestic stock, and as a thought example there may in future be an interest in gene technological changes to create specific milk components or morphological changes of the antlers or whatever in these animals. As long as the deers are kept on the farm behind the fences it may be allright. But we know, that contact to the wild living Red deer population is impossible and by such a contact our "new" Red deer genes may be introduced to the wild population whereby the gene authenticity of this animal may be lost for ever. Best wishes Henrik B.Simonsen Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Department of Animal Science and Animal Health Bulowsvej 13 DK-1870 Frederiksberg C, Copenhagen Denmark telf.: 45 35283010 Fax: 45 35283022 E-Mail:hesih3@wptemp.kvl.dk From: IN%"D.B.MORTON@BHAM.ac.uk" 10-MAR-1995 04:01:07.89 To: IN%"syh@aber.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: HO code vs EC Directive Susan, I think you have to bear in mind that it takes several years to draw up laws, codes, guidelines etc. and so by the time they are published a lot of background work has gone on to ensure some similarity of purpose and detail so that compliance can be assured. I would suggest that you go strictly by the dates of publication and so The HO Code of Practice on Housing and Care of Animals used in Scientific Procedures (1989) was published AFTER Annex II to the Directive 86/609/EEC (18th December1986). The HO Code for breeding establishments came out in 1995 whereas the EEC came out with the Directive (1986). Preceding both of these was the Council of Europe's Convention Appendix A on experimental animals which was published in 1986 but on the 18th MARCH. The EC Directive Annex II and European Convention Appendix A are the same. The HO Code is 'stronger' and better (in my opinion) that the European one - but that was minimised so that all member states could have a cahnce of meeting it without being seriously disadvantaged. Remember the HO did NOT accept the RS/UFAW Recommendations at the time (and indeed they could have refused to accept them at all) and the HO document is different from Appendix A, Annex II and the RS/UFAW Recommendations. They could also have issued a statement emdorsing the RS/UFAW Recommendations but they did NOT. Therefore there was no mandate in law for the HO to claim anything in regard to those recommendations. Are they wanting to rewrite history. So fa as I remember it was someone in the House of Lords during the passage of the Bill who suggested there should be some detailed guidelines and it was not put forward by a Govt. minister. They would have had to comply with the Directive in any event which the UK did (apart from Coturnix coturnix (on Annex I and not Schedule 2, and the emphasis on training and competence). The fact that the same people were involved in all 3 documents is one of those beautiful vagueries of life and shows how politicians often work. Their mandates and allegiences are also interesting but I'll leave that for another day!! If you want any further info please give me a ring. Good luck with your thesis David >> Which came first? The HO Code of Practice on Housing and Care of Animals used in Scientific Procedures or the EC Directive 86/09/EEC (I think is its ref). Until yesterday I thought the EC Directive was first, and the HO Code was drawn up to bring British practice in line with European Guidelines. NOT SO, I was told by an HO Official, who was none too pleased with my conception of the order of events. He convinced me (almost) that the Guidelines in the Appendix of the EC Directive were based on the RS/UFAW Recommendations (as was the HO Code of Practice). Prof.David.B.Morton | Janet: D.B.Morton@uk.ac.bham Biomedical Science and Ethics | Internet: D.B.Morton@bham.ac.uk The Medical School | University of Birmingham | Birmingham | Tel: +44 - (0)121 414 3616 B15 2TT, UK Fax: +44 - (0)121 414 6979 From: IN%"AG3260000@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "LENNOXVILLE" 10-MAR-1995 08:46:55.56 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Joe Stookey. Status:hero Considering declawing your cat? Need to know the legislation on tail docking? Wondering why sows nurse in synchrony? Its all there! In the archives! Folks, I think Joe Stookey deserves a big round of applause for preserving our gems of wisdom for future generations! Now we need no longer ask whether one should favour blood or saliva as a bodily juice, or what fear really is! We can relive those magic moments; reexperience the social tensions of "nepotism in science"! watch old re-runs of Prof. Jensens theatrical welfare tour of Africa! Meet Daisy, the first electronic cow! Newcomers wondering what I am drivelling on about? Check out the applied-ethology archives! Show them to your grandchildren. Here's to Joe! Hip! Hip! Chief Executive Officer, The Joe Stookey Fan Club From: IN%"marcus.hutber@bbsrc.ac.uk" "HUTBER" 10-MAR-1995 09:10:26.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Request for info on CR Dear all, I'm looking for some data or info on contact rates in zero-grazed cattle pens or anything remotely like it. Pete Penny (North Wyke, Devon, Eng.) has suggested I put a request out to you guys.....if anyone could send me in the right direction I'd be most grateful. If farms are sub-divided into pens holding animals of the same age group in each pen, would CR vary according to pen/age group, and if so what would the chief factors be, affecting it? Since I'm going for a daily CR would it be right to assume that behaviour affecting CR ie. agonistic, grooming, ruminating, etc. would even out over a day, and I could therefore go for a reasonably constant daily CR for each pen (although perhaps indoor/outdoor, housing factors etc. could come into it)? Thanks alot, Marcus Hutber From: IN%"sline@isnet.is.wfu.edu" "Scott Line" 10-MAR-1995 10:16:51.77 To: IN%"Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se" "Per Jensen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Stress in natural populations On Fri, 10 Mar 1995, Per Jensen wrote: > Dear all, > > I'm working on a survey on stress in free-living populations of animals, > and have difficulties in locating relevant papers. Does anyone have any > information on papers treating 'stress' indicators in natural groups of > animals? Robert Sapolsky has done quite a bit of work on effects of naturally-occurring stressors on baboons. I've listed a few of his articles below which you may find helpful. Scott Line, DVM, PhD sline@isnet.is.wfu.edu Dept of Comparative Medicine Bowman Gray School of Medicine Medical Center Blvd. Winston-Salem NC 27157-1040 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Sapolsky RM. Endocrine and behavioral correlates of drought in wild olive baboons (Papio anubis). American Journal of Primatology; 1986; 11(3): 217-227. 2. Sapolsky RM. Stress-induced elevation of testosterone concentrations in high ranking baboons: role of catecholamines. Endocrinology; 1986; 118(4): 1630-1635. 3. Sapolsky RM, Mott GE. Social subordinance in wild baboons is associated with suppressed high density lipoprotein-cholesterol concentrations: the possible role of chronic social stress. Endocrinology; 1987; 121(5): 1605-1610. 4. Sapolsky R. Stress-induced suppression of testosterone titers in the freely-living olive baboon: role of glucocorticoids. International Journal of Primatology; 1984; 5(4):376. 5. Sapolsky RM, Ray JC. Styles of dominance and their endocrine correlates among wild olive baboons (Papio anubis). American Journal of Primatology; 1989; 18: 1-13. 6. Sapolsky R. The endocrine stress-response and social status in the wild baboon. Hormones and Behavior; 1982; 16: 279-292. From: IN%"walker@cortex.health.ufl.edu" "Curt Walker" 10-MAR-1995 10:28:14.90 To: IN%"Applied-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Play behavior Networkers: Robin Walker (no relation) brought up an interesting topic in her scathing letter on declawing: play behavior. I have studied play behavior for many years now, and am interested in the opinions of ISAE members and friends as to why mammals spend oodles of energy on this behavior. Do you think it has a function? If so, what? If not, why has this behavior remained in the mammalian repertoire? Do you think all forms of play have the same function, if any, or could different forms of play serve different uses? Does one form of play seem ancestral? Opinions on some or all of these questions may be directed to me at: walker@cortex.health.ufl.edu Thanks for playing, Curt Walker Dept of Neuroscience University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32610 From: IN%"lhenley@sunmuw1.muw.edu" "Lani Lyman-Henley" 10-MAR-1995 11:31:08.84 To: IN%"walker@cortex.health.ufl.edu" "Curt Walker" CC: IN%"Applied-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Play behavior Hmmmm....this is a topic my old advisor has spent a lot of time thinking (and writing) about. He has a very interesting theory about the evolution of play behavior in animals that many of you may enjoy- look up Gordon M. Burghardt's play papers. He works with snakes for the most part (which do not play) and has proposed that endothermy and parental care periods are extremely important in the evolution of play in animals. I've thought the stuff fascinating, but it's been a while and I don't feel confident enough to do his work on this justice. And now back to lurking.... :) *********************************************************************** Lani Lyman-Henley, PhD email: lhenley@sunmuw1.muw.edu Division of Science & Math phone: (601) 329-7381 (office) Mississippi University for Women P.O.Box W 100 Columbus, MS 39701 FAX: (601) 329-7238 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "More than iron, more than lead, more than gold I need electricity. I need it more than I need lamb or pork or lettuce or cucumber. I need it for my dreams." -poetry by Ractor ********************************************************************** From: IN%"Ernest.Olfert@sask.usask.ca" "ERNEST OLFERT" 10-MAR-1995 12:07:58.97 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Joe Stookey. Status:hero I would second Lennoxville AG326000's cheers for Joe Stookey. I do have some inside information though, and that is that Joe is like the proverbial duck on the pond. Above water the picture is serene, but underneath he's paddling like hell. Keeping a BBS operational IS a big job, and Joe deserves all the credit he gets. Bye for now. Ernest D. Olfert ========================================================== \ Ernest D. Olfert, Director, Animal Resources \ /\ Centre, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, ( ) Saskatchewan Canada S7N 0W0 .( o ). Telephone: 306-966-4124 Fax: 306-966-8850 OLFERT@SASK.USASK.CA ========================================================== From: IN%"ABECK@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU" "ALAN M. BECK" 10-MAR-1995 15:28:09.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cat fight I originally asked that we examine the issue of declawing cats in families where there are concerns about Cat Scratch Disease or immuno- compromised individuals. The frequency and ferocity of the responses indicates that cats appear to trigger more than usual interest and concerns. I suspect the issue goes beyond disparity of views between United Kingdom and USA veterinary medicine. My own survey data does indicate that cat owners are somewhat different than dog or other pet animal owners regarding demographic patterns and some belief systems. In our culture, cats appear to illicit extremes of behavior. There appears to be more negative folklore about cats, similar to the anger some men have towards women. Yet, defenders are even dedicated. Animal research on cats is criticized more than on dogs. Comparing cat owning households with dog owning households, one finds more numbers of animals per household, fewer human children, although the gender ratios of adults are decidedly more female. Is the angry discourse we now have because of differing views of a veterinary procedure or something even more interesting? Would discussions of dog tail-docking generate should emotion and if not, why? From: IN%"ROBITAIL@NICKEL.LAURENTIAN.CA" 10-MAR-1995 19:03:36.81 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fear of blood Dear all: I have recently been asking questions regarding Fear of blood in cattle before introducing myself, which I would like to correct now. I am assistant professor at Laurentian University, Ontario, Canada (46 degree lat.N) and I have done some past work with captive bison at the Quebec Zoological Garden (Zoo Biol. 12:367-379). However, since I am mostly working on ecology and behaviour of marten and other weasels (Fam. Mustelidae), any study on ungulates is an irresistible disgression. I am grateful to J.Stookey for his help in putting me "on the line", and will read your declawing debates with vivid interest. Our project on blood and fear is progressing and I will keep you updated. Jean-Francois Robitaille --------------------------------------------------------------------- J.-F. Robitaille Laurentian University robitail@nickel.laurentian.ca Sudbury, Ontario --------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"sac75957@saclink.csus.edu" "Thomas J Mills" 10-MAR-1995 19:16:53.23 To: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" CC: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: sheathing those claws Here-Here. Signed: A concerned observer and Feline fancier (We have two "in-door" cats, one has been since birth, the other since we adopted him at 4 years of age-both are declawed-we take them outside for extended-observed periods of time-weather permitting. Both have their own spaces in the house and brings us endless hours of love and companionship-We would die of worry if they were "out-of-doors" cats left to defend themselves against the urban sprawl-we feel we can give them a better life "in-doors").Thank you. Tom Mills, Lynn Mills, and our two adorable, healthy, lively, and yes, happy cats Nomie and Boots. On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, JEFF RUSHEN wrote: > A word of advice. If you read a message on this network that makes > you angry, I suggest you do the following. Spend an hour or so > composing a truely acerbic reply, one that you are confident will > destroy your opponent utterly. Let the bile flow. DO NOT SEND THE > MESSAGE. Instead, spend the next 24 hours savouring the thought of > your opponent, crushed by the brilliance of your repartee. Then > destroy the message, unsent. > > Jeff Rushen > From: IN%"D.B.MORTON@BHAM.ac.uk" 11-MAR-1995 04:30:52.41 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: HO EU laws Dear Susan, >> Which came first? The HO Code of Practice on Housing and Care of Animals used in Scientific Procedures or the EC Directive 86/09/EEC (I think is its ref). Until yesterday I thought the EC Directive was first, and the HO Code was drawn up to bring British practice in line with European Guidelines. NOT SO, I was told by an HO Official, who was none too pleased with my conception of the order of events. He convinced me (almost) that the Guidelines in the Appendix of the EC Directive were based on the RS/UFAW Recommendations (as was the HO Code of Practice). I think you have to bear in mind that it takes several years to draw up laws, codes, guidelines etc. and so by the time they are published a lot of background work has gone on to ensure some similarity of purpose and detail so that compliance can be assured. I would suggest that you go strictly by the dates of publication and so The HO Code of Practice on Housing and Care of Animals used in Scientific Procedures (1989) was published AFTER Annex II to the Directive 86/609/EEC (18th December1986). The HO Code for breeding establishments came out in 1995 whereas the EEC came out with the Directive (1986). Preceding both of these was the Council of Europe's Convention Appendix A on experimental animals which was published in 1986 but on the 18th MARCH. The EC Directive Annex II and European Convention Appendix A are the same. The HO Code is 'stronger' and better (in my opinion) that the European one - but that was minimised so that all member states could have a cahnce of meeting it without being seriously disadvantaged. Remember the HO did NOT accept the RS/UFAW Recommendations at the time (and indeed they could have refused to accept them at all) and the HO document is different from Appendix A, Annex II and the RS/UFAW Recommendations. They could also have issued a statement emdorsing the RS/UFAW Recommendations but they did NOT. Therefore there was no mandate in law for the HO to claim anything in regard to those recommendations. Are they wanting to rewrite history. So fa as I remember it was someone in the House of Lords during the passage of the Bill who suggested there should be some detailed guidelines and it was not put forward by a Govt. minister. They would have had to comply with the Directive in any event which the UK did (apart from Coturnix coturnix (on Annex I and not Schedule 2, and the emphasis on training and competence). The fact that the same people were involved in all 3 documents is one of those beautiful vagueries of life and shows how politicians often work. Their mandates and allegiences are also interesting but I'll leave that for another day!! If you want any further info please give me a ring. Good luck with your thesis David Prof.David.B.Morton | Janet: D.B.Morton@uk.ac.bham Biomedical Science and Ethics | Internet: D.B.Morton@bham.ac.uk The Medical School | University of Birmingham | Birmingham | Tel: +44 - (0)121 414 3616 B15 2TT, UK Fax: +44 - (0)121 414 6979 Prof.David.B.Morton | Janet: D.B.Morton@uk.ac.bham Biomedical Science and Ethics | Internet: D.B.Morton@bham.ac.uk The Medical School | University of Birmingham | Birmingham | Tel: +44 - (0)121 414 3616 B15 2TT, UK Fax: +44 - (0)121 414 6979 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "ROBIN E WALKER" 11-MAR-1995 06:27:54.77 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Declawing and Confining cats "Here-Here. Signed: A concerned observer and Feline fancier (We have two "in-door" cats, one has been since birth, the other since we adopted him at 4 years of age-both are declawed-we take them outside for extended-observed periods of time-weather permitting. Both have their own spaces in the house and brings us endless hours of love and companionship-We would die of worry if they were "out-of-doors" cats left to defend themselves against the urban sprawl-we feel we can give them a better life "in-doors").Thank you. Tom Mills, Lynn Mills, and our two adorable, healthy, lively, and yes, happy cats Nomie and Boots." Nobody doubts your love or your sincerity. Your cats make the best of the best of love...BUT...they bring YOU endless love and companionship. It is YOU that is spared grief and anxiety. Is'nt this, albeit from the milk of human kindness. a rather selfcentred form of love? Most cats are not designed to be social comforters. Some adapt to this role. Some are suspended in a kitten/mummy relationship and never develop out of it. Very many are NOT so inclined and these form the core of the behaviourist's workload. These cats want to lead adult lives. Unrestrained love can cause as many problems for dogs and cats as neglect or cruelty. We (humans) are hungry for love...needful...of it..but it can cause harm. I saw a Staffordshire Bull Terrier bitch yesterday morning. It has been loved and nursed through horrible trauma and desperate illness but a wonderful lady.I had to spend a hour and a half gently explaining that the dog has become overbonded to her. It is a desperate blancmange of pent up love and fury when it cannot touch her. It now nips her whe she attempts to leave its side! The cure is for the lady to withdraw and ration her love and enable to dog to recover an independant psyche. But it goes against the emotional make-up of the human involved. In my first letter I included a thumbnail sketch of the normal cat's emotional nature.. "It has seemed to me that the cat is a lone predator. It is exquisitely designed to stalk and hunt. It likes a territory and a den area. It is highly motivated to explore and shows "sensory specific satiety" to a marked degree as it tries novel foods. Not being social its emotional range is narrower, more "elemental", and perhaps this is why it is so esily crushed into a vegetative state by massive doses of progesterones. I have thought for some time that the "mental" health of any species depends upon the opportunity to rehearse or exercise the emotional programs of the brain. By means ,for example, of play or sham confrontations with con-specifics." Now. If you own a cat that fits this description you will have problems with a relationship in which it is expected to "bring you hours of love and companionship" or do nothing to cause you "worry". You will have to recognize the nature of the cat and hold your breath and cross your fingers. Attempts to love this cat into submission may result in a sudden bite before it stalks off lashing its tail. Its frustration at not being able to exercize its emotions will spill out in a variety of activites around the house which will be "inconvenient" and a source of "annoyance" to the loving owner. Loving is often "letting go". It is the same with children. The fact that you are "O.K" with your particular cats has no bearing on this debate. You are lucky. This time round........ Robin Walker, Bosun the Labrador, Pip and Pickles the barking Borders, and Panther the surgery cat who came off the road with a shattered tibia as a kitten and lives here, goes out when he wants. is friendly when he feels like it, has all his claws, and has got to 11 years on the same traffic intersection. From: IN%"svj1@cornell.edu" 11-MAR-1995 10:27:01.73 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: The Perils of Domestication Dear All, The debate over declawing has brought up some interesting concepts and ideas regarding the changes that we impose on animals as a result of our desire to domesticate them. I have read arguments that asks us to examine what "animals are for in natural terms". Well, as soon as we keep them in captivity, they are no longer living the natural life of their ancestors. The term imprisonment was mentioned regarding indoor cats, since they are no longer allowed to roam, stalk and hunt as their wild ancestors did. By that argument, we are also guilty of keeping dogs from running in packs and chasing prey, of preventing horses from forming herds and wandering over sometimes large expanses of land while grazing, and of doing the same with sheep, goats and cattle. Animals can adapt, physiologically and behaviorally, to changes in their "natural" environment. As an example, let me bring up horses that for one reason or another have ended up stranded in small islands. With large grazing areas unavailable, they change their travelling habits, switch their grazing preferences to what is at hand, reduce their stature (over several generations)... basically, they adapt, by nature's design. When we domesticate a species, we put these pressures on, albeit more quickly that in nature, and perhaps not wisely in some cases. And just to be complete, may I say that domestication applies to plant species also, although I have yet to argue the merits of cultivating orderly fields versus just gathering crops as we happen to come across them. A great many behaviors can be modified, and we select species for "taming" that are compatible with the requirements that we put upon them. [As a child I always wondered why we didn't ride zebras, or train crocodriles... maybe that is why I took up behavior... :) ]. I am in the process of looking at behavior problems in single vs. multiple cat households, and perhaps I may later try to answer the question, is there a difference between strictly indoors vs. outdoor allowed cats. Having spent a fair amount of time patching up canine and feline accident victims (vehicular, poisoning and attacks), I very much recommend that companion pets be supervised when outdoors. This means that owners must spend time addressing their pets' need for exercise, play and socialization. And it meant that I spent the time informing owners of what those needs are. With regards to declawing, tail docking and ear cropping, I personally never performed any of these procedures except for medical reasons. Whenever people inquired about declawing, I described the surgical procedure, after care and complications, and then asked if they were providing a suitable surface for their cats to scratch. Surprisingly to me, many said no. Surprising because, after all, we go to sometimes great and elaborate efforts to provide a suitable location for elimination. So what is different here? On a kitten's first visit, I spent time talking to the owners about basic care and needs, and scratching surfaces were definetely a part of the discussion. It was never an issue to my employers (5 different ones), as I had informed them of my views and ideas during my interview. To say that veterinarians in the United States go to the knife or the medicine cabinet to appease their clients or stay economically afloat may be true in some cases but it hardly describes the profession as a whole, just as saying that our counterparts in the U.K. are swayed in their thinking by animal rights and welfare groups would be a preposterous oversimplification. I welcome different views because they help freshen my own and keep the ole' brain from going stale. To Dr. Robin Walker and his barking Border Terriers, a suggestion? There is an antibark collar of French manufacture, called the Aboistop. I am finishing a study comparing its efficacy with that of popular electronic "shock" collars. So far, it has performed at least as well if not better, without using electric shock, but rather a citronella odor that dogs find offensive (enough to curtail barking!). In fact, a rather determined W. Highland Terrier that made it his business to bark at everything (including planes flying overhead...), decided that he could keep quiet rather than having to put up with the smell of citrus. It has been available in the U.K. for a while, and I can give you the distributing company's address if interested (I do not have it at hand or I would include it now...). Let's keep up the dialogue and skips the wars. Soraya V. Juarbe-Diaz, DVM. Resident, Animal Behavior Clinic College of Veterinary Medicine Ithaca, New York phone 607-253-3844 fax 607-253-3846 Email svj1@cornell.edu From: IN%"BARNETTJ@woody.agvic.gov.au" "John Barnett" 13-MAR-1995 17:05:18.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se" CC: Subj: RE: Stress in natural populations Dear Per, There is some literature on stress in natural populations of Australian mammals. This work started following the finding that all males of a species (Antechinus stuartii) died after a precisely timed mating season. Mortality was stress related and there are some papers identifying the mechanisms involved. Some later comparative studies have examined closely related species with similar and different life histories. I am currently at our 'other campus' but will send you the references when I get back to my office. Regards, John Barnett (BarnettJ@Woody.agvic.gov.au) From: IN%"vhaiding@darwin.bio.uci.edu" 13-MAR-1995 17:20:04.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: introduction Hello- I am taking the opportunity to introduce myself at my earliest convenience. I am currently a graduate student at the University of California, Irvine in the Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology. I am working with Nancy Burley looking at fluctuating asymmetry, its role in sexual selection and as an indicator of stress in captive populations. The reason that I have joined this group is that I am very interested in finding and pursuing a career in wildlife management, conservation and captive breeding programs. Thanks Tori Haidinger vhaiding@darwin.bio.uci.edu From: IN%"KEN@WUDCM.WUSTL.EDU" "Ken Boschert" 14-MAR-1995 01:36:35.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Archive files available I took Joe's Applied-Ethology archives and organized them on the NetVet Web/Gopher server by month into a roughly searchable index. If you're interested you can check them out at the following address. Happy surfin', Ken ^__^ Ken Boschert, DVM INTERNET: ken@wudcm.wustl.edu ( / \ ) Washington University NOAH: 74431.2545@compuserve.com Division of Comparative Medicine NetVet WWW and Gopher Server \ / Box 8061, 660 S. Euclid Ave. URL: http://netvet.wustl.edu/ =\/= St. Louis, MO 63110 * PHONE: 314-362-3700 * FAX: 314-362-6480 From: IN%"BJORN.FORKMAN@bbsrc.ac.uk" "Bjorn Forkman" 14-MAR-1995 17:03:26.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction Dear All, Let me introduce myself, my name is Bjorn Forkman and I am currently working at the Roslin Institute for Poultry Research. I am leading a project called "Motivation and cognition in Poultry" (the entire staff of the project being one employee, i.e. myself). I have also worked on optimal foraging and exploration in gerbils, and aggression in pigs. My main personal interest is how to fit psychological learning theory into behavioural ecology, but I am also interested in motivation and cognition in more general terms. Bjorn bjorn.forkman@bbsrc.ac.uk Roslin Institute Roslin Midlothian EH25 9PS UK From: IN%"Bo.Algers@hhyg.slu.se" 15-MAR-1995 02:14:04.98 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Sarajevo I am desperately trying to get in contact with my collegues (vets) in Sarajevo. I have spent some time surfing on the internet without success. Can anyone help me to find info about Sarajevo in general, universities and the vet faculty in particular? Bo Algers From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "ROBIN E WALKER" 15-MAR-1995 05:07:20.48 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Internet addiction In article <3k486f$46li@ns1.CC.Lehigh.EDU>, x011@Lehigh.EDU (x011@Lehigh.EDU) writes: >In article , Carol Koh writes: >> This is so true! I was beginning to be concerned because I have spent >>so much time surfing that I was beginning to get pains in my legs and hands >>that wouldn't quit. Am I an obcessive-compulsive? I love it so much >>esp. WWW and Usenet. Let's hear other out there post your eperiences and >>how do you moderate it. Someone called it the "black hole" of your free >>time. >> >Yes, one can become addicted to anything. You like and need intellectual >stimulation. By spending time on the internet you meet your needs. When >you are off you feel depressed. The HIGH is balanced out with a LOW forcing >you to go back to the net. For further understanding read the following: >Work in progress: > >Correlational Opponent-Processing: A Unifying Principle >by >Ronald C. Blue and Wanda Eileen Hatcher Blue > A slightly shorter thesis is promulgated by Dr. G. Larson in T.F.S.G Vol 3 1994 p 176. "Wendall Zurkowitz: Slave to the waffle light." But seriously, of course one becomes addicted. I have only been on e-mail for three months. I appear to be hooked on a schedule of occasional reward (partial re-inforcement) because I get something good often enough to keep me interested. This schedule of reward must always keep ahead of "sensory specific satiety" or the tendency to become bored with the same reward which leads to a search for novelty. The latter may be adaptive in dietary terms. It causes problems in marital relations, modern music and art, and notoriously in the mechanics of sexual relationships! (get your own references). A second stage is of course the phenomenon of "jumping into shock". If we are scolded or assailed by others on the net or say something that we feel may invoke wrath we may respond in one of three ways:- 1. Become upset and "lurk" 2. Cope normally and rationally with it. 3. Switch on more often and become more combative. I think that the experiment of Eysenck is of interest here. Rats were trained to take a pellet of food from a trough when a buzzer sounded. A 'rule' was the introduced to the effect that, if the animal took the pellet immediately it dropped in the trough, it would be shocked, while if it waited for 3 seconds it could take the pellet with impunity. The adaptive solution to this problem, of course, is to wait 3 seconds and then take the food. Two kinds of maladaptive behaviour were also observed: taking the food more quickly and receiving the punishment, or not taking the food at all. Eysenck compares the latter kind of maladaptive behaviour with that shown by the human neurotic, suffering from, say, a phobia, who is seen in the psychiatric clinic: and the former kind to the behaviour of that other kind of neurotic, the criminal or 'psychopath'. This gives us a starting point for discussions on "how to keep your husband interested (if you care); the risks of training children or dogs by means of punishment (how to create illness or rebellion); and "are we all on the bottom two or three rungs of the ladder of insanity? (can we get everything from social phobia such as blushing when a computer [for God's sake] scolds us - or becoming OCD' d or completely 'waffle buttoned'from the internet)) Yours addictedly, Robin E. Walker Wow! What about Post E-mail trauma disorder? From: IN%"spensley.spensley-niaea@bbsrc.ac.uk" "SPENSLEY" 15-MAR-1995 06:24:23.97 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction Dear All, I have been listening in to the discussions on this bulletin board over the past few months, and have now decided to launch myself into the thick of it with a short introduction and a problem which someone, please, may be able to help me with. I have been working for two and a half years on a research project based at Silsoe Research Institute( where's that you may ask!) in the UK. The remit of the project is to determine the sound which the pig is exposed to during normal production and to determine how the pig perceives these sounds. Initial experiments have determined that the heart rate of the pig is elevated on exposure to sound, and that the behaviour of the pig is altered by the presence of sound. The magnitude of these responses is effected by the loudness of the sound. Subsequent experiments have shown that the pigs find loud sound initially aversive but then they habituate to it over an unknown period. There is a large amount of inter-individual variation with both the magnitude of the aversion and the rate of habituation. For the last part of my research work I am trying to measure how quickly a pig can habituate to a loud sound. This is where my problem occurs? Has anyone any ideas on how to measure the rate of habituation to a stimulus which is initially mildly aversive, but which the pig does habituate to. I suppose the real question is when does a novel fear inducing stimulus loose its fear status. I am at the moment trying a one way avoidance type of experiment but other ideas/ comments would be much appreciated. Janet Spensley Animal Science and Engineering Division Silsoe Research Institute Wrest Park Silsoe Beds MK45 4HS Tel: 0525 860000 ext 2523 Fax:0525 861735 email: Spensley@BBSRC.ac.uk