From: IN%"jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" "JANICE SWANSON" 16-MAR-1998 09:10:45.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Telepatic horses and dogs Per, I have not had close contact with a mind reader but we have had several television programs on our U.S. public educational channels and commercial television which have highlighted these activities. In one case the dog "told" the mind reader (dog was depressed not eating) that when the woman in the house left (wife) the man (husband) was having an affair. The dog was suffering from having this knowledge and not being able to tell the wife. The mind reader told the wife and the rest is history. This particular "mind reader" lives in California (can't remember her name) and she works with show horses and pets. There is an ever increasing movement to discredit or suspect anything that is produced scientifically. The image of science in the U.S. is not in good shape except among scientists and immediate beneficiaries. Our attitudes and approaches to dealing with the public sector has not helped the image. Scientists, once thought to be objective, are increasingly attached or identified to special interests involved in controversy. Their use of statistics and commitment to anything high tech tends to confuse and scare people. I would bet if you sampled the programming lists for television over the past ten years you would see a definite increase in programs that are focused on the paranormal. People are searching for alternative explanations...especially those that engage the spirit and are not as cold, calculating and mechanistic as science. We are often perceived as dogmatic. I realize this does not help your quest for information ( we have similar concerns here in the U.S). Perhaps instead of developing a quest to prove mind readers false perhaps we need to study why people are likely to turn to them and turn off science. Janice Swanson > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:50:09 +0100 > From: Per Jensen > Subject: Telepatic horses and dogs > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Dear all, > > I brought up this issue some years ago, but the phenomenon seems to be > increasing. I was recently asked for comments on a book manuscript on "how > to read the minds of animals". This leads me to ask the members of this > network again for comments and opinions. > > Around the world there are an increasing number of "mind-readers", who > "speak to" horses and dogs. The animals tell them about their problems: "I > do not like hot weather and all the demands from my owners make my skin > itch. That's why I do this excessive scratching" (Alsacian, 7-year female). > "I get stressed from all rush, I want to have a quiet corner where I can > lie down and think about how sad life is" (Dairy cow which did not eat > concentrate). "I like to work and I am good at it, but I get depressed from > making mistakes. Then I get diarrhea, which helps me getting the shit out" > (Horse, 11 years). > > (The examples are from the manuscript I have just read). > > Have anyone come in close contact with animal mind-readers? Is anyone > familiar with any controlled study of the effects or mechanisms involved? > > To my mind, this is a frightening and dangerous type of activity, which > draws the attention away from scientifically based therapies. I have once > offered my participation in designing a double blind trial with a > mind-reader, but the person was not interested after all. But maybe other > such studies have been carried out? > > Looking forward to your responses. > > Best wishes, > > Per Jensen > > *********************************************************** > PER JENSEN, Professor of Ethology > Swedish University of Agricultural Scinces > Department of Animal Environment and Health > Section of Ethology > POB 234, SE-532 23 SKARA, Sweden > Tel +46 511 67219 > Fax +46 511 67204 > E-mail Per.Jensen@hmh.slu.se > *********************************************************** From: IN%"welfare@pobox.ruu.nl" "ICWD (Ruud van den Bos)" 16-MAR-1998 10:35:27.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: data primates neuro-anatomy request Hello, my name is Cynthia Nolten. I=B9m a graduate student biology at=20 Leiden University, Leiden, the Netherlands. I=B9m working on a project=20 supervised by dr. Ruud van den Bos (IEES, Group Theoretical Biology and=20 Phylogenetics, University of Leiden, Leiden, the Netherlands).=20 The project=B9s aim is to make a phylogenetic reconstruction of a neural network underlying the Theory of Mind (ToM) in primates.=20 ToM stands for the ability to have insight into one=B9s own mental states=20 as well as those of others. It is possible to operationalize this concept=20 by a number of tests. Data for great apes strongly suggest that they=20 possess ToM, data for lesser apes or gibbons are dubious and data for=20 monkeys suggest that they lack ToM. From observations in humans it may be hypothesized that the presence of=20 ToM depends on the integrity of a neural network consisting of the=20 amygdala, the orbitofrontal cortex and (parts of) the temporal cortex. So, the question is if and how this network has evolved in primates and=20 whether this follows the evolution of ToM. We use the methods of=20 phylogenetic analysis, in which characters (and their states) are=20 defined for this network. We=B9re looking at: human, bonobo, chimpanzee,=20 gorilla, orang utan, gibbon, baboon, macaque and vervet monkey. Currently we have information on: 1. % basolateral and centromedial group of the amygdala 2. size index amygdala 3. encephalization index 4. surface area neocortex 5. % prefrontal cortex (of isocortex) 6. surface area prefrontal cortex 7. size index hippocampus We still haven=B9t found information on: For 1, 2 and 3 data of the bonobo, the orang utan, the baboon, the=20 macaque and the vervet monkey. For 4, 5 and 6 data of the bonobo, the orang utan and the gorilla. For 7 data of the bonobo. Right now we=B9re trying to find information on connections between the=20 amygdala, the prefrontal cortex and the temporal cortex, but we=B9re=20 expecting problems to find info on the bonobo, the orang utan and the= gorilla. We still haven=B9t found information on: - % orbitofrontal cortex of prefrontal cortex - % dorsolateral cortex of prefrontal cortex - % temporal cortex of neocortex / size index temporal cortex Our data-sources thusfar have been: - Eccles, J. C., Evolution of the brain, creation of the self. - Stephan et al., Comparative size of brains and brain components. - Schwartz, J. H., Orang utan biology. - Markowitsch, H. J., Anatomical and functional organization of the=20 primate prefrontal cortical system. - Uylings, H. B. M., The prefrontal cortex, it=B9s structure, function and= =20 pathology. - Passingham, R. E., Anatomical differences between the neocortex of man=20 and other primates. Is there anyone out there who has these data or could help us out in=20 getting these data? =20 Kind regards, Cynthia Nolten. --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Cynthia Nolten Institute of Evolutionary and Ecological Sciences Group Theoretical Biology and Phylogenetics van der Klaauw Laboratory University of Leiden P.O. Box 9516 Kaiserstraat 63 2300 RA Leiden 2311 GP Leiden The Netherlands phone: +31 71 527 4939 fax: +31 71 527 4900 e-mail: nolten@rulsfb.leidenuniv.nl From: IN%"shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at" 16-MAR-1998 12:20:30.68 To: IN%"tapir@tapirback.com" "Tapir", IN%"moose395@qnet.com", IN%"a8303739@unet.univie.ac.at", IN%"merktal@online.ee" "Jevgeni", IN%"sarwarm@paknet1.ptc.pk" "Muhammad Sarwar", IN%"glkirk@ark.ship.edu", IN%"KRUCZEK@eko.uj.edu.pl" "kruczek" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"MAMMAL-L@SIVM.SI.EDU" "Mammalian Biology" Subj: Shrew Re-Marks? Dear colleagues, Regarding the current discussion about marking methods: Having gone through the numerous messages that I received (personal & for 'Shrew Talk') plus those that I have followed on the listservers' discussions and in view of that I am now forced to look for an adequate method myself that also meets the legal standards of my country, I conclude and summarize: 1) Hitherto discussed alternative methods have their draw-backs. These are: a) Colour marks: easy, but not permanent b) Fur-clipping: easy, but not permanent c) Transponders (micro-chips): too expensive and still too large for the smallest shrews. d) Ear tags: not applicable to the small ears of shrews. Tear out of rodents. e) Tattooes: difficult to apply Methods 1a and 1b are not suitable when dealing with large populations in long-term studies. They may, however be useful as additional marks. In addition, I must conclude that it is most difficult for a single researcher to apply these markings, provided that he has to hold the - wiggling - animal in one hand and only has one hand free to do the marking job. If anaesthesia / narcosis is necessary, this would be another risk to lose shrews. 2) Toe-clipping is fast, easy and permanent. However, the acceptance of the method is controversial and it seems that alternatives should be sought, which is not easy. In this context, I would like to cite a snip of a mail I received recently: "...extensive live trapping studies continuously over 20 years. We have marked many thousands of voles. We can have more than ten live trapping grids, each 2 - 4.5 ha, being studied simultaneously. We can have 500 - 1000 marked animals on our grids at the same time. Any other marking method than toe clipping, ear tags or possibly subcutaneous chip (no experience of that yet) would be a joke. Dyes, hair clipping etc are OK when number of animals is relatively small but in large scale populations studies their potential is very limited." ------------------------------------------------------------- MY question (something that has not been mentioned yet): "Leg-rings", like being used for marking birds, were used for marking small mammals in the "pioneer days" with some success (Chitty 1937, Linn & Shillito 1960, Shillito 1963 a, b, c). As to my knowledge, this method has never been used on shrews since then and I could not find any recent literature on it. Do you think that this is a useful method that should be "revived"? Does anybody have experience with this? Could this be re-developed as an alternative method at least for small scale population / home range studies? What are the disadvantages (Chitty reported that a few animals developed gangrenes from rings that did not fit properly)? Any comments welcome! - I am looking for a solution! References: Linn, I., J. Shillito 1960 Rings for marking very small mammals. Proc. Zool. Soc. Lond. 134(3): 489-495. Shillito, J.F. 1963 Field observations on the growth, reproduction and activity of a woodland population of the common shrew Sorex araneus L. Proc. Zool. Soc. Lond. 140: 99-114. Shillito, J.F. 1963 Field observations on the water shrew, Neomys fodiens. Proc. Zool. Soc. Lond. 140: 320-322. Shillito, J.F. 1963 Observations on the range and movements of a woodland population of the common shrew Sorex araneus L. Proc. Zool. Soc. Lond. 140: 533-546. Shillito, J.F. 1954 The general ecology of the common shrew, Sorex araneus L. Unpublished Ph.D. Thesis, Univ. Oxford. Chitty, D. 1937 A ringing technique for small mammals. J. Anim. Ecol. 6: 36-53. ======================================================================= Dr. Werner Haberl Editor, SHREW TALK (http://members.vienna.at/shrew/shrewtalk.html) Hamburgerstr. 11, A-1050 Vienna, Austria Email: shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at URL: http://members.vienna.at/shrew (The Shrew (ist's) Site) The Shrew Bibliography (> 6000 references) (also available on CD ROM) ======================================================================= From: IN%"shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at" 16-MAR-1998 13:54:54.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Shrew Re-Marks? / New Message Dear colleagues, I am very sorry if you receive this message twice. I regret to have done a serious mistake in my first posting (copied all the recipients' addresses to the 'to-field'). I hope it works now... Please excuse. ------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding the current discussion about marking methods: Having gone through the numerous messages that I received (personal & for 'Shrew Talk') plus those that I have followed on the listservers' discussions and in view of that I am now forced to look for an adequate method myself that also meets the legal standards of my country, I conclude and summarize: 1) Hitherto discussed alternative methods have their draw-backs. These are: a) Colour marks: easy, but not permanent b) Fur-clipping: easy, but not permanent c) Transponders (micro-chips): too expensive and still too large for the smallest shrews. d) Ear tags: not applicable to the small ears of shrews. Tear out of rodents. e) Tattooes: difficult to apply Methods 1a and 1b are not suitable when dealing with large populations in long-term studies. They may, however be useful as additional marks. In addition, I must conclude that it is most difficult for a single researcher to apply these markings, provided that he has to hold the - wiggling - animal in one hand and only has one hand free to do the marking job. If anaesthesia / narcosis is necessary, this would be another risk to lose shrews. 2) Toe-clipping is fast, easy and permanent. However, the acceptance of the method is controversial and it seems that alternatives should be sought, which is not easy. In this context, I would like to cite a snip of a mail I received recently: "...extensive live trapping studies continuously over 20 years. We have marked many thousands of voles. We can have more than ten live trapping grids, each 2 - 4.5 ha, being studied simultaneously. We can have 500 - 1000 marked animals on our grids at the same time. Any other marking method than toe clipping, ear tags or possibly subcutaneous chip (no experience of that yet) would be a joke. Dyes, hair clipping etc are OK when number of animals is relatively small but in large scale populations studies their potential is very limited." ------------------------------------------------------------- MY question (something that has not been mentioned yet): "Leg-rings", like being used for marking birds, were used for marking small mammals in the "pioneer days" with some success (Chitty 1937, Linn & Shillito 1960, Shillito 1963 a, b, c). As to my knowledge, this method has never been used on shrews since then and I could not find any recent literature on it. Do you think that this is a useful method that should be "revived"? Does anybody have experience with this? Could this be re-developed as an alternative method at least for small scale population / home range studies? What are the disadvantages (Chitty reported that a few animals developed gangrenes from rings that did not fit properly)? Any comments welcome! - I am looking for a solution! References: Linn, I., J. Shillito 1960 Rings for marking very small mammals. Proc. Zool. Soc. Lond. 134(3): 489-495. Shillito, J.F. 1963 Field observations on the growth, reproduction and activity of a woodland population of the common shrew Sorex araneus L. Proc. Zool. Soc. Lond. 140: 99-114. Shillito, J.F. 1963 Field observations on the water shrew, Neomys fodiens. Proc. Zool. Soc. Lond. 140: 320-322. Shillito, J.F. 1963 Observations on the range and movements of a woodland population of the common shrew Sorex araneus L. Proc. Zool. Soc. Lond. 140: 533-546. Shillito, J.F. 1954 The general ecology of the common shrew, Sorex araneus L. Unpublished Ph.D. Thesis, Univ. Oxford. Chitty, D. 1937 A ringing technique for small mammals. J. Anim. Ecol. 6: 36-53. ======================================================================= Dr. Werner Haberl Editor, SHREW TALK (http://members.vienna.at/shrew/shrewtalk.html) Hamburgerstr. 11, A-1050 Vienna, Austria Email: shrewbib@sorex.vienna.at URL: http://members.vienna.at/shrew (The Shrew (ist's) Site) The Shrew Bibliography (> 6000 references) (also available on CD ROM) ======================================================================= From: IN%"Mike@m-tay.demon.co.uk" "--Mike Taylor --" 16-MAR-1998 17:04:34.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Feline Behaviour I have a couple of interesting cat behaviour problems that I hope someone may like to comment on. Normally cats will bring back birds or mice etc for their owners. My first cat is a little bit different, it brings home large earthworms! Not the occasional one or two but anything up to 20 - 25 a day (Its owners must have excellent soil in their garden). These worms are in the main undamaged and the cat makes no attempt to eat them. The cat also apparently digs for these worms, its not as if they were wriggling about on the surface. The owners are becoming a little paranoid as they now even wake up in the morning and find worms on their pillow, they have a cat flap. There are two other cats in residence. I have not really got much of a clue why the cat does this, especially as it digs for them, far or less any idea how to stop it. My second cat is even more peculiar, or not depending on how you view it. It steals underwear from washing lines! and takes it home. It is not sexist it steals mens and womens, bras, y-fronts, frillies and even socks. The cats owners know it is from washing lines as some of the items still have the pegs on them. Recently things took a turn for the worse and it started coming home with unwashed items! The owners now suspect it of going into houses and picking up its favourite items. Needless to say its owners are rather embarrassed about going round their neighbours trying to find the owners of the various stolen items. I suspect that what is happening here is that the cats sees these items flapping in the breeze on the washing lines and mistakes them for birds, jumps at them, catches them and takes home the trophy. Then one day it happened to wander into someones house and finds its favourite items just lying about and decides that this is a much easier way to get the trophies than all the energy wasting jumping up and catching. Can anyone suggest anything different or more to the point can anyone suggest how to stop this cat and prevent any more red faces? thanks --Mike Taylor -- From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 17-MAR-1998 01:59:34.50 To: IN%"Mike@m-tay.demon.co.uk" "Mike Taylor (E-mail)" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: The first cat is trying to 'worm' its way into the affections of the owners! The second started out as a peeping tom! Ho Ho Ho .... Seriously all these behaviours are variants on caching of food items.? I have 2 which respectively gather crab apples and pile them up and steal metal objects such as nuts and bolts and cache them ! Personally I have never considered attempting a 'cure'. It seems to me that constraint and confinement in domesticity will always throw up such aberrations. The natural wolf that gathered lupins and brought them back for the pack would presumably not survive for long. Robin Another of my patients sits on the lavatory seat cover and yells until its owner brushes its teeth (it doesn't like peppermint) From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 17-MAR-1998 03:21:11.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"Per.Jensen@hmh.slu.se" "Per Jensen" CC: Subj: RE: Telepatic horses and dogs K=E4ra Per, - Get in touch with the Wageningen colleagues. Years ago Piet Wiepkema invited a certain Mrs Lydekker who pretended to be in telepathic contact with animals for a lecture and tests. - See the work of Sheldrake. Unfortunately, most people involved with "testing this scientifically" are "believers": they want to demonstrate telepathy exists or does not exist, instead of examining in a neutral way a strange phenomenon and trying to investigate 1/ whether a supposed relation (e.g. dog getting excited just before the unexpected return of its master) exists, or whether it is due to e.g. selective memory; 2/ if the relation stands, what is the causality. Inventing undefined, or negatively defined (i.e. not-the-known-sensory- channels, but what then?), concepts such as "telepathy" is scientifically useless. Even if one would find that it is due to a extremely refined, use of a known sensory channel, or to a sophisticated computing of probabililities (even unconsciously; "intuition" probably works that way) it would be fantastic. On the other hand, one should go and look how psychologists study "social intelligence". Some people notice more than others non-verbal signals and that is probably true with animals. When somebody says that he/she "knows" what his/her horse is doing behind his/her back relies on slight acoustical stimuli and on experience with previous situations which allows predictions about the behavioural sequence. Hejdo. Frank Prof.Dr.F.O.=D6dberg Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: 49 From: IN%"Henrik.B.Simonsen@ihh.kvl.dk" "Henrik B Simonsen" 17-MAR-1998 09:27:12.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE European Council Fund Dear ISAE colleague. As fund raiser for The ISAE European Council Fund I herby ask for names = and addresses on persons, firms or companies interested in the care and = use of vertebrate animals for experimental purposes. The Council of Europe is preparing the revision of Appendix A of the = European Convention for the protection of vertebrate animals used for = experimental and othe scientific purposes. The appendix A which dates from = 1986 provides technical details about housing conditions such as cage size = population density etc. For further information read Frank =D6dbergs note = in ISAE Newsletter , issue 13, Oct. 1997, p.11-12. For preparation of this revision of Appendix A four groups of experts are = appointed to deal with 1.Non-human primates, 2. Dogs and cats, 3. Rodents = and rabbits, and 4. Mini-pigs respectively. ISAE has designated 7 of our = members to work out the details for the revised Appendix. These members = are Paul Koene, John Bradshaw, Robert Hubrecht, Marcus Stauffacher, = Marie-Christine Meunier-Salaun and Sandra Edwartd. The use of vertebrate animals for experimental purposes is of crucial = importance for many enterprises and regulation of management and housing = conditions in my opinion is very important for many companies and firms. = Donations to the ISAE Fund securing scientific information on the highest = level during preparation of the future regulation of the use of experimenta= l animals must be in the interest to some financial strong companies.=20 So please try to consider possible donators for the ISAE Fund and send me = names and addresses. I will then in an informative and polite manner try = to get som money for the ISAE Fund. Best wishes to all of you. Henrik B. Simonsen Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University B=FClowsvej 13 DK-1870 Frederiksberg C Copenhagen Denmark Phone +4535283010/3014 Fax +4535283022 E-mail: hbs@kvl.dk From: IN%"Dushay.1@nd.edu" 17-MAR-1998 14:59:01.48 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: homosexuality Dear fellow biologists, I teach a behavior genetics course at Notre Dame, and I'm looking for a video to substitute for my own lecture next month. We'll be talking about sexual behavior at that point, so I'd like to find a video that talks about animal sexual behavior. I have heard that among Bonobos and other animals, homosexual behavior is extremely common. Can you help me find any 30 min - 1 hr videos that show that sexual behavior is quite varied, including homosexual behavior. Thanks for your help. Mitch From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 17-MAR-1998 22:00:31.12 To: IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Grand Dad Phenomena I've had an obsession about familial traits for some time now. I thought all of you would enjoy the following quote from the current "Life" magazine. Do any of you have similar tales to share? JimB ------------------------- The final 2 paragraphs on p 50 of the "Life" article are particularly salient. "A few nights ago, watching my daughter arrange her 37 Beanie Babies by color and species, I felt a shock of recognition -- and glanced over at m= y wife, who wears the same expression when she arranges Shakespeare's plays= in chronological order. My lump of putty is eight now, and I don't need= a DNA scan to tell me she has inherited her mother's intelligtence, her father's suutbbornness, her grandfather's wit. The genes may be familiar but the mix -- thank heavens -- is unique. Warts and all, she is exactly= the child I want. "When I look at her, I see a part of me. When I look at myself, it seems= there's less of me that there once was. At a recent party, schmoozing wi= th one last guest on my out the door, I suddenly thought, "I'm acting exactl= y like my father!" Having spent my youth fighting to forge my own identit= y, I find, increasingly, that I resemble the very parent against whom I work= ed so hard to rebel: his social ease, his sense of humor -- and now that I = am in my forties, his thinnning hair and slight potbelly. Indeed, as I get= older, I feel that instead of adding layers, I am shedding skins. In beoming more like my parents, I am becoming more myself. I am surprised= and delighted that it all feels so comfortable -- not an imprisoning but = a coming home." George Howe Colt, "Were you born that way?" "Life," Apri= l 1998, pp 39-50. From: IN%"UKNIERIM@Itt.tiho-hannover.de" "Dr. Ute Knierim" 18-MAR-1998 04:49:44.96 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: mules and donkeys Dear all, a veterinarian, study just finished, is deeply interested in mules and donkeys and would like to do PhD-work on them. As in Germany these species are of minor importance, she is looking for institutions worldwide which work on mules or donkeys, for cooperation or supervision of a PhD-study. Any names or other hints are gratefully appreciated. Best wishes Ute ********************************************************************* Dr. Ute Knierim Institut fuer Tierhygiene und Tierschutz Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover Institute of Animal Hygiene and Welfare School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover Buenteweg 17 p D-30559 Hannover Tel +49 (0)511 953 8449 Fax +49 (0)511 953 8588 uknierim@itt.tiho-hannover.de ************************************************************************** From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 18-MAR-1998 06:24:09.24 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Grand Dad Phenomena -------------Forwarded Message----------------- From: "Mike Appleby", INTERNET:mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk To: "James F. Brody", JBrody = Date: 3/18/98 4:45 AM RE: Re: Grand Dad Phenomena Sender: mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk Received: from haymarket.ed.ac.uk (haymarket.ed.ac.uk [129.215.128.53]) by dub-img-8.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) with ESMTP id EAA15017 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 04:45:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk (srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk [129.215.136.240]) by haymarket.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27781 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:45:07 GMT Received: from BIO-SRV0/SpoolDir by srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk (Mercury 1.31); 18 Mar 98 09:45:06 +0000 Received: from SpoolDir by BIO-SRV0 (Mercury 1.31); 18 Mar 98 09:44:47 +0= 000 From: "Mike Appleby" Organization: Edinburgh University To: "James F. Brody" Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:44:40 +0000 Subject: Re: Grand Dad Phenomena Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199803172300_MC2-3727-6FF1@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <160D184C73@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk> Dear James = I like the Life article, except perhaps for the following phrase: > My lump of putty = I recognise some of my own and my wife's characteristics in my sons, = but they are their own people too - and increasingly so as they get = older. The following bit reminds me of the GB Shaw story: > she has inherited her mother's intelligtence, her > father's suutbbornness, her grandfather's wit. = An actress suggested that she and Shaw should get married, so that = their children would have her looks and his brains. 'Madam', he = said, 'It might equally well be a disaster. They might have my looks = and your brains.' > I find, increasingly, that I resemble the very parent against whom I wo= rked > so hard to rebel: his social ease, his sense of humor = I recognise this too, and it is striking that both the author and I = see more of our fathers in ourselves than of our mothers. I'm involved in amateur drama, and I was in a play recently for which = I needed to grey my hair and wear glasses. When the photographs came = back I was struck as if by a physical blow: that was my father in the = pictures - not only his looks, but also his attitudes and postures. = And yet it was also me. Mike Appleby From: IN%"quinlan@bendnet.com" "George Quinlan" 18-MAR-1998 15:31:05.84 To: IN%"UKNIERIM@Itt.tiho-hannover.de" "Dr. Ute Knierim", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: mules and donkeys Dr. Ute Knierim, You wrote Dear all, a veterinarian, study just finished, is deeply interested in mules and donkeys and would like to do PhD-work on them. As in Germany these species are of minor importance, she is looking for institutions worldwide which work on mules or donkeys, for cooperation or supervision of a PhD-study. Any names or other hints are gratefully appreciated. Best wishes Ute You may try contacting, American Donkey and Mule Society Inc. 2901 N. Elm St. Denton, TX 76201 has been asking for donations to fund longear research at Texas A&M University. I don't know any more about it but someone at the society would. I hope this will help you. Best Wishes George Phillp Quinlan From: IN%"Rob@dm.net" "Rob@dm.net" 18-MAR-1998 23:20:52.79 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Puppy Abortion A friend of mine told me some disturbing news this evening. Earlier today, she took her dog to get spayed, unaware that she was pregnant. Without telling her, the doctor(s) killed all of the unborn puppies. They told her afterwards what they had done. She has been upset about this all day, and I do not blame her. Not only was this a ruthless killing, but it was done without consent. I am very interested on everyone's opinion on this matter. Does anyone know the legal side of this kind of thing? The whole thing just seems outright wrong. Rob Mudra Assistant Manager DM Pets and Animals forum http://pets.dm.net rob@dm.net From: IN%"kvlasman@uoguelph.ca" "Kara Vlasman" 19-MAR-1998 00:41:56.20 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Puppy Abortion Rob, A similar incident occurred years ago when I took my cat in to be spayed. They aborted the kittens and informed me of this action taken when they called to say she could be picked up and taken home. I found the whole situation very disturbing also. I ended up calling a few days later, and asked why they had proceeded to abort the kittens without my consent. The response I received was that when they had "opened her up" on the operating table, that was also when they discovered she was pregnant and that in that situation, leaving the cat and attempting to make a call to the owner in order to find out what the owner wants to do, that is, have the kittens aborted or not, can waste valuable time and increase the risk of mortality due to surgery for the animal being operated on. In addition, I vaguely remember the Veterinarian adding that the decision to abort the kittens was also based on the understanding that I took my cat in to be fixed, and presumably that meant that I didn't want her to have kittens. Of course this is correct, but nevertheless the situation came as somewhat of a shock to me, was disturbing and dealt with in a rather harsh manner. However, I would have been more devastated if they had attempted to call me to ask for consent, and lost my cat's life in the process. I now presume, after 'seeing' your friends story, that this is common practice. Kara Vlasman University of Guelph kvlasman@uoguelph.ca From: IN%"a9101071@unet.univie.ac.at" "Schindl Monika" 19-MAR-1998 01:50:17.88 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Flamingos Hallo, everybody! Does anybody know why flamingos are standing on just one leg most of the time? (If there wouldn=B4t be an adavantage for them, they wouldn=B4t o so, I guess!) Greetings to all, Monika ************************************** Dr.Monika Schindl a9101071@unet.univie.ac.at ************************************** From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 19-MAR-1998 03:28:18.07 To: IN%"UKNIERIM@Itt.tiho-hannover.de" "'Dr. Ute Knierim'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: mules and donkeys Dear Ute, There was considerable interest in the welfare of donkeys in Greece and other Mediterranean areas in the '70s and 80s. some of it was under the auspices of a Donkey Trust or Sanctuary in the South West of England. Whilst in Thasos for a month in '82 working up a medical history topic I got interested in the loading of donkeys by the local folk. Huge burdens of humans and chattels seemed to be inflicted on the poor little beasts. One I saw but could not photograph was staggering along under THREE telegraph poles! The gait of the overloaded donkey is very interesting it seemed to me that some of them could only move one foot at a time, leaving three on the ground as much as possible. I showed the slides and gave a talk to a group of animal charities in Worcestershire. They were oddly disappointed that I could not show grotesque disease or injury! Of course the island has an abundance of water and green fodder which makes a huge difference. The saving aspect was (in my view) that the overloading was only occasional. The donkey declares its intolerance of such abuse by dying if it is subjected to it on a daily basis. The military literature of the 19th century and the veterinary records of the British Army Veterinary Services establish that pack donkeys should only carry 50 lbs. This figure accords almost exactly with the best Roman practice! (The novel Apuleius and the Golden Ass actually inflicts all the predictable forms of donkey abuse on the eponymous 'hero' ) All this might be reviewed in a work on loading, strain and particularly gait in the critically burdened donkey...of course it may all have been done ! The mule being a very valuable animal was cosseted by the average owner. I can give the military references if anyone is interested . Robin -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Ute Knierim [SMTP:UKNIERIM@Itt.tiho-hannover.de] Sent: 18 March 1998 11:49 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: mules and donkeys Dear all, a veterinarian, study just finished, is deeply interested in mules and donkeys and would like to do PhD-work on them. As in Germany these species are of minor importance, she is looking for institutions worldwide which work on mules or donkeys, for cooperation or supervision of a PhD-study. Any names or other hints are gratefully appreciated. Best wishes Ute ********************************************************************* Dr. Ute Knierim Institut fuer Tierhygiene und Tierschutz Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover Institute of Animal Hygiene and Welfare School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover Buenteweg 17 p D-30559 Hannover Tel +49 (0)511 953 8449 Fax +49 (0)511 953 8588 uknierim@itt.tiho-hannover.de ************************************************************************** From: IN%"marithe@mandic.com.br" "maria thereza amaral" 19-MAR-1998 07:31:48.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: translation > Please,=20 > > How do you traslate this sentence "sensation of wildness" ? > > Thanks, > > =20 > maria thereza cera galv=E3o do amaral=09 veterin=E1ria homeopata ( homeopath veterinarian ) S=E3o Paulo - Brasil ( Brazil ) marithe@mandic.com.br http://pessoal.mandic.com.br/marithe/mth33.htm Por favor, confirme o recebimento deste e-mail se n=E3o for de lista. From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 19-MAR-1998 07:47:39.82 To: IN%"UKNIERIM@Itt.tiho-hannover.de" "Dr. Ute Knierim" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: mules and donkeys We used to have a horse herd from which we bred mules, as they are very popular working animals in the southeastern United States. I didn't realize how popular until I was a veterinary student in Auburn, Alabama, in the 1970's. A hurricane made it that far inland, and trees were uprooted and strewn across streets, cars, parking lots...you get the picture. There was so much debris that machinery could not make it into some areas to help with the cleanup process. Suddenly many draft mules, in old harness, appeared on the streets and significantly contributed to the cleanup. While the University of Georgia's mule herd has been disbanded, one paper came out of studying them, which I would be happy to send her a reprint of if she does not have it. It is Smith-Funk, E. Denise and Crowell-Davis, S.L Maternal behavior of draft mares (Equus caballus) with mule foals (Equus asinus x Equus caballus). Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci. 33: 93-119, 1992. The development of behavior in the mule foals, as well as the behavior of the mothers, is described. There was also a master's thesis, which of course has some information that was not in the final paper. It is Smith, E.D. Maternal Behavior of Draft Mares (Equus caballus) with mule foals (Equus asinus x Equus caballus). Thesis submitted to the University of Georgia, 1988. Having studied numerous breeds of horses, as well as mules, I have discovered one qualitative difference. The mule foals engaged in a form of play which we have not observed in our horse foals. It is characterized by grabbing, mouthing and tugging on the ear of other foals. Sharon Crowell-Davis > Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:49:04 +0000 (MEZ-1MDZ) > From: "Dr. Ute Knierim" > Subject: mules and donkeys > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Organization: TIHO-HANNOVER > Priority: normal > Dear all, > > a veterinarian, study just finished, is deeply interested in mules > and donkeys and would like to do PhD-work on them. As in Germany > these species are of minor importance, she is looking for > institutions worldwide which work on mules or donkeys, for > cooperation or supervision of a PhD-study. Any names or other hints > are gratefully appreciated. > > Best wishes > Ute > > ********************************************************************* > > Dr. Ute Knierim Institut fuer Tierhygiene und Tierschutz > Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover > > Institute of Animal Hygiene and Welfare > School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover > > Buenteweg 17 p > D-30559 Hannover > > Tel +49 (0)511 953 8449 > Fax +49 (0)511 953 8588 > > uknierim@itt.tiho-hannover.de > ************************************************************************** > ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"amthomps@zebu.cvm.msu.edu" "Amy Thompson" 19-MAR-1998 08:37:55.46 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Puppy abortion Hey everyone. I've been lurking here for a while, so as a senior veterinary student at Michigan State University, of course I have an opinion about this thread. Yes, veterinarians often will "abort" the fetuses when an animal is brought in to be spayed. Perhaps they should call the owner when they realize the animal is pregnant, but how many owners are willing to pay for the surgery and anesthesia time, go through the animal's pregnancy, find homes for the puppies and kittens, as well as the risk of infection to the mother and fetuses AND the potential for anesthesia death as was already mentioned. If the animal was brought in to be spayed, then the owner must not want to deal with puppies and kittens, do they? Another point: in the real world, how many owners are available over the phone when the vet needs to talk to them NOW, and how many would be able to make that decision in a matter of minutes? Would the majority of owners want the pregnant animal sewn back up until they could be consulted? Not a chance. We won't even get into stage of pregnancy and the definition of abortion... Legally, this is an interesting question, however most vets require the client to sign a surgery consent form when they ask for the elective sugery to be done. By contract we are obligated to fulfill the owner's request. (legally, the pet is the property of the owner) On the same note, when a client signs a consent for euthanasia, and therefore have contracted work from the vet, the vet is required to carry out their part of the contract. After the process has begun, the owner cannot change his/her mind. Just some things to think about before the fire starts... ~Amy Thompson amthomps@zebu.cvm.msu.edu http://zebu.cvm.msu.edu/~amthomps From: IN%"kvlasman@uoguelph.ca" "Kara Vlasman" 19-MAR-1998 10:13:05.74 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Puppy abortion > As I mentioned earlier, of course there is an understanding that if a > client requests an animal be fixed they assume, naturally, that the > owner does not want to have kittens or puppies. In my case, and the > case mentioned before however it was rather upsetting and disturbing to > find out that our pets were pregnant and the kittens (or puppies) had > been aborted without our knowledge of the situation or playing a role > in the decision making which I am confident most people can > understand. I am also quite confident that other clients have > experienced the same situation with similar feelings. Had I been aware > of the pregnancy, I most probably would have decided to let her have > the kittens, and then afterward taken her to get fixed. Regardless, I > had absolutely no idea that she was pregnant the thought had never even > entered my mind as she was only a kitten herself (5 - 6 months) and > rarely out of the house. To generalize, I think that often times the > client never considers the possibility of pregnancy, especially when > clients are taking their animals in to be spayed at the youngest > recommended age, when the animal has yet to reach full sexual > maturity. The veterinarian, however, realizes that pregnancy could be > a possibility so couldn't this situation save everyone a little grief > if veterinarians just made it common practice to address this issue to > all clients having their pets spayed and asking what the client would > have them do if such a situation were to arise? Or to specifically > address this issue on a consent form? Kara Vlasman University of Guelph kvlasman@uoguelph.ca From: IN%"kvlasman@uoguelph.ca" "Kara Vlasman" 19-MAR-1998 10:13:59.08 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Puppy abortion > As I mentioned earlier, of course there is an understanding that if a > client requests an animal be fixed they assume, naturally, that the > owner does not want to have kittens or puppies. In my case, and the > case mentioned before however it was rather upsetting and disturbing to > find out that our pets were pregnant and the kittens (or puppies) had > been aborted without our knowledge of the situation or playing a role > in the decision making which I am confident most people can > understand. I am also quite confident that other clients have > experienced the same situation with similar feelings. Had I been aware > of the pregnancy, I most probably would have decided to let her have > the kittens, and then afterward taken her to get fixed. Regardless, I > had absolutely no idea that she was pregnant the thought had never even > entered my mind as she was only a kitten herself (5 - 6 months) and > rarely out of the house. To generalize, I think that often times the > client never considers the possibility of pregnancy, especially when > clients are taking their animals in to be spayed at the youngest > recommended age, when the animal has yet to reach full sexual > maturity. The veterinarian, however, realizes that pregnancy could be > a possibility so couldn't this situation save everyone a little grief > if veterinarians just made it common practice to address this issue to > all clients having their pets spayed and asking what the client would > have them do if such a situation were to arise? Or to specifically > address this issue on a consent form? Kara Vlasman University of Guelph kvlasman@uoguelph.ca From: IN%"louiser@clara.net" "Louise Rogers" 19-MAR-1998 12:00:09.60 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: puppy abortion This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_j7KEJ/1fKr0r08f0auj32w) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable As an English vet nurse with 7 years experiance, I can honestly say I = have never seen a pregnant animal spayed unless the owner specifically = requests it. We also make sure that we have a contact number for every = animal we admit, and our consent forms contain " any treatment = necessary", so their is not a black and white contract entered in to, so = if a routine spay was found to be pregnant, and the owner was = uncontactable, we could legitimately close her up unspayed, and then let = the owner decide, or continue if we felt that the uterus had been too = manhandled ( especially, for example if it was a flank cat spay), so the = there was a very real risk of miscarriage. We have however often had = animals brought which we suspect to be pregnant, and in those cases we = do nothing and advise the owner to wait and see what develops! So it = seems to me with a little more pre-planning ( getting contact numbers = etc., thorough examinations), this situation should not arise = frequently. As for the risk of anaesthetic death increasing for the time = it takes to make a phone-call (or send someone else) in a young healthy = animal this should be minimal..........you need to change your = anaesthetics if you they are that dangerous! Loops. --Boundary_(ID_j7KEJ/1fKr0r08f0auj32w) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
As an English vet nurse with 7 years = experiance,=20 I can honestly say I have never seen a pregnant animal spayed unless the = owner=20 specifically requests it. We also make sure that we have a contact = number for=20 every animal we admit, and our consent forms contain " any = treatment=20 necessary", so their is not a black and white contract entered in = to, so if=20 a routine spay was found to be pregnant, and the owner was = uncontactable, we=20 could legitimately close her up unspayed, and then let the owner decide, = or=20 continue if we felt that the uterus had been too manhandled ( = especially, for=20 example if it was a flank cat spay), so the there was a very real risk = of=20 miscarriage. We have however often had animals brought which we suspect = to be=20 pregnant, and in those cases we do nothing and advise the owner to wait = and see=20 what develops! So it seems to me with a little more pre-planning ( = getting=20 contact numbers etc., thorough examinations), this situation should not = arise=20 frequently. As for the risk of anaesthetic death increasing for the time = it=20 takes to make a phone-call (or send someone else) in a young healthy = animal this=20 should be minimal..........you need to change your anaesthetics if you = they are=20 that dangerous!
Loops.
--Boundary_(ID_j7KEJ/1fKr0r08f0auj32w)-- From: IN%"radfordg@SilynNet.de" "Michael & Gabrielle Radford" 19-MAR-1998 13:21:51.18 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Puppy abortion As a Animal Health Technician I feel I have to let my voice be heard. I will tell you that our clinic we will proceed with the spay even if the animal is pregnant. First of all every animal is given a physical exam before they are taken in for surgery. The owner is required to fill out a questionnaire which asks when the last heat cycle was and if there is ANY chance the animal might be pregnant. If they think there might be a chance they are then asked if they would like to postpone the procedure. If they opt to proceed with the surgery they are told the spay will be preformed regardless. Unless they ask at pick up time if the animal was pregnant we do not mention it. So in our clinic clients are fully informed. Our consent form states that while under anesthesia the vet can perform any procedure deems necessary for the health of the animal. In my personal opinion there are to many abandon animals out there to justify closing up a pregnant animal. I have three cats in my stray facility right now that we can not find homes for. Inevitably they will end up being euthansized. The health risks for the bitch or queen also increase after the surgery, remember in humans they only why they will anesthetize pregnant mothers is if the mother's life or the baby's life is in danger. Gabrielle From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 19-MAR-1998 13:57:39.56 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"radfordg@SilynNet.de" "Michael & Gabrielle Radford" Subj: Fully Informed?? On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Michael & Gabrielle Radford wrote: > ..... Unless they ask at pick up time if the animal was pregnant we > do not mention it. So in our clinic clients are fully informed.... > > Uh huh? Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"louiser@clara.net" "Louise Rogers" 19-MAR-1998 14:56:10.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: puppy abortion. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ZVcVoXpPvOJo5Luqi6ZZiw) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable As much as I agree that there are too many unwanted animals, this does = not change the fact that these animals have loving owners who should be = consulted. You can then explain to them why you feel it necessary to = continue the spay and the associated risks, should they decide to = continue the pregnancy. Also as to the risks of an anaesthetic while = pregnant, this is true, but if you were repairing a fracture, and found = the animal to be pregnant would you then also spay her without = permission? Is the customer only always right, when it does not involve an animal? I also have to say the"fully informed.......only when they ask.." line, = was a classic! Loops. --Boundary_(ID_ZVcVoXpPvOJo5Luqi6ZZiw) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
As much as I agree that there are = too many=20 unwanted animals, this does not change the fact that these animals have = loving=20 owners who should be consulted. You can then explain to them why you = feel it=20 necessary to continue the spay and the associated risks, should they = decide to=20 continue the pregnancy. Also as to the risks of an anaesthetic while = pregnant,=20 this is true, but if you were repairing a fracture, and found the animal = to be=20 pregnant would you then also spay her without permission?
Is the customer only always right, = when it does=20 not involve an animal?
I also have to = say=20 the"fully informed.......only when they ask.." line, was a=20 classic!
Loops.
--Boundary_(ID_ZVcVoXpPvOJo5Luqi6ZZiw)-- From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 19-MAR-1998 16:08:06.31 To: IN%"louiser@clara.net" "Louise Rogers" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: puppy abortion. On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Louise Rogers wrote: > As much as I agree that there are too many unwanted animals, this does > not change the fact that these animals have loving owners who should be > consulted. You can then explain to them why you feel it necessary to > continue the spay and the associated risks, should they decide to Guys.... If the owners were so loving and caring, why did they allow their pets to become pregnant in the first place? And, since they were supposedly taking such wonderful care of their animals, why were they not AWARE that the animals had been mated? If the owners took their animals in to be spayed/castrated, they obviously don't want puppies and/or kittens. That they have guilty feelings after the fact is NOT the vet's fault. Ione ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/stereo.html the stereotypical behaviors database ================================================== I am always willing to learn, however I do not always like to be taught. -- Winston Churchill From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 19-MAR-1998 16:55:46.08 To: IN%"Mike@m-tay.demon.co.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: feline behaviour Mike, I didn't see an answer to your problem on the net so I thought I might put my less experienced 2 cents worth in. I think probably both of these cats began their habits in a perfectly natural way based on normal cat behaviour. As you suggested flapping clothes are attractive and bringing prey home is common. However I think both these cats would have stopped these unusual behaviours if their owners were not unconsciously reinforcing them. I especially draw your attention to the cat flap when the worms were placed on the pillow. I suspect that the cats are benefiting in some way from these behaviours probably in increased attention. I could guess that when the owners see the cat coming across the lawn with a piece of underwear that they run out and entice the cat over in order to get rid of the evidence. Since it may be difficult to determine what the owners are doing to reinforce this behaviour a blanket ban on any attention (i.e. ignoring the cat) if the item is present should diminish this behaviour. Unfortunately, as with all extinction schedules, the behaviour is likely to increase before it decreases. Good Luck Nora From: IN%"uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar" "Dr. Leopoldo Estol" 19-MAR-1998 21:03:31.13 To: IN%"UKNIERIM@Itt.tiho-hannover.de" "Dr. Ute Knierim" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"trigo@servidor.unam.mx" "PANVET UNAM Francisco Trigo" Subj: RE: mules and donkeys Try to find Dra Alina de Aluja, Sh'es a leader in working horses and donkeys. I have't the addres with my now but ask to Dr. Francisco Trigo Secretario General Facultad de Medicina Veterinaria y Zootecnia, Universidad Autonoma Nacional de Mexico, trigo@servidor.unam.mx Profesor Leopoldo Estol, Medico Veterinario, Diplomado en Salud Publica. Director, Carrera de Veterinaria, Universidad del Salvador. Campus " N. S. del Pilar", C.C. 198, Pilar 1629, Provincia de Buenos Aires, ARGENTINA. Home phone (International + 54 1) 555 4580 & 552 1476 Office Fax. & Phone (International + 54 322) 31260 & 31261 & 31262 & 31263 & 90503 & 26053 & 26057 E-mail: uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar URL: http://www.salvador.edu.ar/uaf3-2.htm -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Ute Knierim To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Date: Miércoles 18 de Marzo de 1998 10:51 Subject: mules and donkeys >Dear all, > >a veterinarian, study just finished, is deeply interested in mules >and donkeys and would like to do PhD-work on them. As in Germany >these species are of minor importance, she is looking for >institutions worldwide which work on mules or donkeys, for >cooperation or supervision of a PhD-study. Any names or other hints >are gratefully appreciated. > >Best wishes >Ute > >********************************************************************* > >Dr. Ute Knierim Institut fuer Tierhygiene und Tierschutz > Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover > > Institute of Animal Hygiene and Welfare > School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover > >Buenteweg 17 p >D-30559 Hannover > >Tel +49 (0)511 953 8449 >Fax +49 (0)511 953 8588 > >uknierim@itt.tiho-hannover.de >************************************************************************** > From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 19-MAR-1998 22:08:26.57 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Menopause Help needed ... Sarah's a Brown Univ student and has been quite helpful at times. She's= seems bound for nature, biology, and perhaps will be teaching our kids someday. She asked, and I'm assembling some ideas. Still, all of you know more about these very issues and can give her more than my dry fable= s. Thank you, = Jim ------------------- I was having a debate with a couple friends the other day about menopause= and we were unable to reach a conclusion so I thought to write to you abo= ut it. They both maintained that menopause was a recent phenomenon that cam= e about a few centuries ago when the life expectancy dramatically increased= =2E I don't think that such as elaborate change in hormone levels etc could just happen as a by-product of an extended life span. There must be some= evolutionary advantage to having women go through menopause and survive many years as non-reproductive individuals. The first question is what is the average life expectancy of women in pre-industrial society and when do/did they usually start menopause? = I've read a lot about how post-menopausal women are important contributer= s to child rearing, food gathering, information, etc. I felt that my frien= ds were speaking from a euro-centric point of view and not concidering conditions in other places at other times. They kept talking about disea= se and how people often died of disease before going through menopause. I always thought of disease as a problem specific to crowded conditions (li= ke medieval european cities) not hunter gatherer or agricultural societies. Can you shed any light on this or at least point to somewhere? Thanks a lot. From: IN%"murn@uriacc.uri.edu" "Murn Nippo" 20-MAR-1998 07:56:29.94 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Menopause Try Jared Diamond's article "Why Women Change" which can be found in Discover Magazine's archive at : http://www.discover.com I think you will find some thought provoking material. Murn Nippo James F. Brody wrote: > Help needed ... > > Sarah's a Brown Univ student and has been quite helpful at times. She's > seems bound for nature, biology, and perhaps will be teaching our kids > someday. She asked, and I'm assembling some ideas. Still, all of you > know more about these very issues and can give her more than my dry fables. > > Thank you, > > Jim > ------------------- > > I was having a debate with a couple friends the other day about menopause > and we were unable to reach a conclusion so I thought to write to you about > it. They both maintained that menopause was a recent phenomenon that came > about a few centuries ago when the life expectancy dramatically increased. > I don't think that such as elaborate change in hormone levels etc could > just happen as a by-product of an extended life span. There must be some > evolutionary advantage to having women go through menopause and survive > many years as non-reproductive individuals. > > The first question is what is the average life expectancy of women in > pre-industrial society and when do/did they usually start menopause? > > I've read a lot about how post-menopausal women are important contributers > to child rearing, food gathering, information, etc. I felt that my friends > were speaking from a euro-centric point of view and not concidering > conditions in other places at other times. They kept talking about disease > and how people often died of disease before going through menopause. I > always thought of disease as a problem specific to crowded conditions (like > medieval european cities) not hunter gatherer or agricultural societies. > > Can you shed any light on this or at least point to somewhere? Thanks a > lot. -- Dr. Murn M. Nippo FAVS Department, University of Rhode Island Woodward Hall, Kingston, RI 02881 USA Phone 401-874-2940 (voice) 401 874-4017 (fax) murn@uriacc.uri.edu (E-Mail) http://www.uri.edu/crd/favs_home/mn.html From: IN%"lok@gte.net" "joe" 20-MAR-1998 08:47:51.80 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_r9fyIaDDucN1NitqHo6JLQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Could anyone explain to me the spcecific bonding action of activated = attapulgite ? Thanks, Joe --Boundary_(ID_r9fyIaDDucN1NitqHo6JLQ) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Could anyone explain to me the = spcecific bonding=20 action of activated attapulgite ?
Thanks,
Joe
--Boundary_(ID_r9fyIaDDucN1NitqHo6JLQ)-- From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 20-MAR-1998 09:02:32.91 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: Domestication and Disease On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:07:09 -0500 "James F. Brody" wrote: > I always thought of disease as a problem specific to > crowded conditions (like medieval european cities) not > hunter gatherer or agricultural societies. I believe it is too simplistic to state that disease is specific (or even primarily) a problem of crowded conditions. True, crowded conditions tend to exacerbate and magnify the problem - even promote the genetic adaptation of germs. But disease is also a problem of hunter gatherer societies - malaria for example and possibly syphilis in the pre-Columbian Americas. An interesting book on the evolution of diseases that arose from human contact with domestic animals is "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond, W.W. Norton & Company; 1997. (However, I don't necessarily agree with his overall view of farmers which tends to affect his wording, i.e., "But farmers are sedentary and live amid their own sewage..." (page 205).) The central contention of Diamond is that, "Far more Native Americans died in bed from Eurasian germs than on the battlefield from Eropean guns and swords." (page 210) and "There is no doubt that Europeans developed a big advantage in weaponry, technology, and political organization over most of the non-European peoples that they conquered. But that advantage alone doesn't fully explain how initially so few European immigrants came to supplant so much of the native population of the Americas and some other parts of the world. That might not have happened without Europe's sinister gift to other continents -- the germs evolving from Eurasians' long intimacy with domestic animals." There are some interesting bioethical issues related to points that Diamond raises - both past and present issues. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin ws31@umail.umd.edu From: IN%"C.M.Eising@biol.rug.nl" 20-MAR-1998 09:42:12.13 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: new subscriber and a question.... Hai to you all! (how many are y'all anyway?) Besides a new subscriber I am also a new PhD working at the University of Groningen, the Netherlands. I will be working on adaptive adjustment of maternal transfer of gonadal hormones in black headed gulls. In other words, I will be working on the correlation of hormone levels in mothers and chicks, the influence of environmental effects on hormone levels and the consequences for fitness of the offspring. I will conduct this research in the field and therefore will be doing a lot of behavioural observations. And I've got a question concerning this straight away: besides using colourbands to identify the birds I will also be using wingtags to facilitate doing observations in a crowded colony. most often the legbands are difficult to see, especially in a huge colony. I'm looking for information on the available methods of tagging the birds. Is there any information on methods, loss rate of tags and possible higher mortality chances of birds due to the tagging??? I would be gratefull for any comments or ideas. best wishes, Corine From: IN%"F.Toates@open.ac.uk" "F.Toates (Fred Toates)" 20-MAR-1998 09:57:02.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dobermann problem Dear All, Our pet Dobermann has developed a form of stereotypy. Originally she caught fleas and scratched at them. We eliminated the fleas but she appears to have got into a positive feedback loop in the process whereby scratching just triggers more scratching. Several of her breasts are inflamed as a result. Any advice? Thanks in anticipation, Fred (Toates) From: IN%"bilbrj@ccaa.edu" "Jennifer Lee Bilbrey" 20-MAR-1998 11:53:24.22 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Canine Parvovirus Does anyone know where I can get a fairly detailed discussion on the immunology of canine parvovirus infection? Thanks in advance, Jennifer Bilbrey *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Jennifer L. Bilbrey bilbrj@ccaa.edu Concordia College cygnus@neont.com Ann Arbor, MI http://www.ccaa.edu/~bilbrj Quotes for the Week: "To look at this world without amazement is to see it with closed eyes" -Albert Einstein *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From: IN%"radfordg@SilynNet.de" "Michael & Gabrielle Radford" 20-MAR-1998 14:30:14.49 To: IN%"louiser@clara.net" "Louise Rogers", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: puppy abortion. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_A9yKCHv0kTEA3RvLzgbpWQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Louise Rogers To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Date: Thursday, March 19, 1998 10:10 PM Subject: puppy abortion. =20 =20 I also have to say the"fully informed.......only when they ask.." = line, was a classic! after re-reading my message what I meant to say was... that if a = client informs us that the animal might be pregnant and elects to = procede with the surgery, when they come to pick up the animal we do = not mention whether or not is was pregnant unless they ask.=20 So in our clinic clients are fully informed at the time of surgery = what will happen. (Sorry through out my back wrestling with a Rottie at work and I'm = on pain medication. Mybrain and fingers don't always co-operate.) Gabrielle --Boundary_(ID_A9yKCHv0kTEA3RvLzgbpWQ) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Louise Rogers <louiser@clara.net>
To: = applied-ethology@sask.usas= k.ca=20 <applied-ethology@sask.usas= k.ca>
Date:=20 Thursday, March 19, 1998 10:10 PM
Subject: puppy=20 abortion.

 
I also = have to say=20 the"fully informed.......only when they ask.." line, was a = classic!
after re-reading my = message what I=20 meant to say was... that if a = client=20 informs us that the animal might be pregnant and elects to procede = with the=20 surgery, when they come to pick up the animal  we do not = mention=20 whether or not is was pregnant unless they ask.
So in our clinic = clients=20 are fully informed at the time of surgery what will = happen. 
(Sorry through out my back wrestling with a Rottie at work and = I'm on=20 pain medication.  Mybrain and fingers don't always = co-operate.)
Gabrielle
--Boundary_(ID_A9yKCHv0kTEA3RvLzgbpWQ)-- From: IN%"rstr6415@uriacc.uri.edu" 20-MAR-1998 15:52:46.36 To: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith", IN%"louiser@clara.net" "Louise Rogers" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: puppy abortion. Ms. Smith: I am a student in Animal Science at the U. of Rhode Island - graduating in May - and have taken great interest in the puppy abortion debate. To your response to Louise Rogers I can only say "Amen". I've been a volunteer at our local Animal Rescue League, cleaning cat cages every week for the past four years - the number of unwanted animals forfeited by "caring owners" is staggering. I do agree that there are a lot of safeguards veterinary hospitals can take prior to such an event possibly occurring (sp) - the real issue is the one you have so eloquently stated. Where does the real "responsibility" lie? Thanks to all who contribute to the ethology email network. You have taught me a lot. Ruth Strain URI At 05:05 PM 3/19/98 -0500, Ione Smith wrote: >On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Louise Rogers wrote: > >> As much as I agree that there are too many unwanted animals, this does >> not change the fact that these animals have loving owners who should be >> consulted. You can then explain to them why you feel it necessary to >> continue the spay and the associated risks, should they decide to > >Guys.... > >If the owners were so loving and caring, why did they allow their pets to >become pregnant in the first place? And, since they were supposedly taking >such wonderful care of their animals, why were they not AWARE that the >animals had been mated? > >If the owners took their animals in to be spayed/castrated, they obviously >don't want puppies and/or kittens. That they have guilty feelings after >the fact is NOT the vet's fault. > > Ione > > ================================================== > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html > The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html > for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate > http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/stereo.html > the stereotypical behaviors database > ================================================== > I am always willing to learn, however I do not > always like to be taught. -- Winston Churchill From: IN%"ragtuswa@eden.rutgers.edu" "ult.cornboy" 20-MAR-1998 21:58:27.20 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: two questions Hey folks, I have two questions of two very different natures so I hope someone may be able to help out. Here goes. First, a proffessor of mine is raising a male German Shepherd for the seeing eye dog program. He's currently 11 months old and is the love of many people. Unfortunately, within the past month or so he has become extremely angry towards small children 12 or so and under. At this point, he, according to my proffesor, is ready to attack them and if it wasn't for her restraint. Otherwise, he's a wonderfully tempered dog. She is recommending to the program that he be neutered to cut the flow of testosterone, but if this doesn't work, his future is very limited. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Also, he doesn't act aggressively to small adult people. Secondly, I run a study for a proffesor where I am in charge of excercising eight shep on a treadmill once a day. The path from their pens to the treadmill - about 40 feet - is through a hallway where neither the treadmill or pens can be seen once inside the the hallway. When bringing them through the hallway one by one, they tend to brace their legs and refuse to move so that I must get behind them and prod them along, although this works only so-so. I've tried food as a treat but it wasn't very succesful either. I was thinking of taking advantage of their flockign instincts and bringing two sheep at a time. Any further suggestions on reducing their unwillingness to make this trip and the stress associated with it. The sheep are currenlty 7 weeks old. thank, mike toscano aka, lzk ragtuswa@eden.rutgers.edu From: IN%"jacq.mitchell@mailexcite.com" "jacquin SL mitchell" 21-MAR-1998 00:25:13.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dobermann problem If you have truly removed the cause of your pets' scratching-i.e the fleas-and she is still itchy,then she will need a short course of anti-inflammatories from your vet.You said yourself that her breasts arinflammed.This is not a behavioural problem and she needs medication before she chews herself raw. Also she should be checked to make sure there is no underlying problem with her breasts and it is primarily a skin /allergy condition. --- jacq (quinell:o) >Dear All, > >Our pet Dobermann has developed a form of stereotypy. Originally she caught >fleas and scratched at them. We eliminated the fleas but she appears to have got >into a positive feedback loop in the process whereby scratching just triggers >more scratching. Several of her breasts are inflamed as a result. Any advice? > >Thanks in anticipation, > >Fred (Toates) > Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere! http://www.mailexcite.com From: IN%"KEVNTERRY@aol.com" "KEVNTERRY" 21-MAR-1998 07:48:40.66 To: IN%"louiser@clara.net" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: puppy abortion. In a message dated 98-03-19 16:08:29 EST, you write: << Also as to the risks of an anaesthetic while pregnant, this is true, but if you were repairing a fracture, and found the animal to be pregnant would you then also spay her without permission? >> Of course not !!!!!! Repairing a fracture and neutering are two totally different procedures. An owner who brings an animal to be neutered is doing so because he/she does not want the animal to reproduce. What does repairing a fracture have to do with the animal's reproductive status??? ~Terry~ From: IN%"KEVNTERRY@aol.com" "KEVNTERRY" 21-MAR-1998 09:00:33.00 To: IN%"Rob@dm.net" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Puppy Abortion In a message dated 98-03-19 00:32:10 EST, you write: << A friend of mine told me some disturbing news this evening. Earlier today, she took her dog to get spayed, unaware that she was pregnant. Without telling her, the doctor(s) killed all of the unborn puppies. They told her afterwards what they had done. She has been upset about this all day, and I do not blame her. Not only was this a ruthless killing, but it was done without consent. I am very interested on everyone's opinion on this matter. Does anyone know the legal side of this kind of thing? The whole thing just seems outright wrong. >> First of all, why was the owner unaware that the dog was pregnant? There are very clear signs in both the canine and feline that signal onset of the heat cycle, if you know what to watch for. It is my opinion that no one should own an unneutered animal of any age if he/she is not familiar with these signs. Second, Ruthless????? Did this vet go out and seek this pregnant animal so that he/she could fulfill some morbid desire to kill baby animals??? How do you think the vet feels upon opening the animal and discovering 6, 8, 10 fetuses?? It is difficult for all involved - including technicians. Why do you think it's the vet's responsibility to prevent this type of situation from happening when : #1 - It was not the vet who decided to own the animal without acquiring the knowledge necessary for responsible ownership #2 - The vet has no control over how the animal is housed, controlled or cared for #3 - The vet was approached by the owner and contracted to perform an ovariohysterectomy - which includes the removal of the uterus I do not blame your friend for being upset either, but placing all of the responsibility for this on the vet is preposterous. It just seems outright wrong to me that someone would own an intact animal and not know its whereabouts to the extent that the animal manages to become pregnant without the owner's knowledge. ~Terry~ From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 21-MAR-1998 13:05:41.80 To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" "'ws31@umail.umd.edu'", IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" CC: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Domestication and Disease I am delighted to see this thread which is so very relevant to ethology and its application. Texts such as The Food Crisis in Prehistory-Overpopulation and the Origins of Agriculture, Cohen M N, 1977, are good stating points for study. The discovery and development of cereal grains fuelled our population growth and made urban living possible. The two great drivers of disease susceptibility have always been malnutrition and lowered immunity due to the effects of social stress such as poverty, helplessness. Scholars of Classical matters have puzzled that the late Roman city walls erected in the 3rd and 4th centuries AD always encompassed an area far greater than that which seemed to be occupied by detectable buildings. They have overlooked the existence of the shanty town poor which have always inevitably clustered about the urban core. The populous city resembles the huge army which consumes the countryside and must move on to find fodder for its animals. But of course it cannot and must bring in its food from a distance. The subsistence diet of flour, oil and wine doled out by city governments kept the urban poor alive but is deficient in vitamins and essential amino acids. Fruit and vegetables can only be brought in if there is cheap transport and money to pay for them and if the hinterland can produce enough within a practical distance. Endemic scurvy was the norm in most urban areas. If humans are properly fed and above all are HAPPY they can exist in very large groups in close proximity and sleep in heaps! As I have said before I do not think it is the proximity of large numbers of cats, farmed fish, or birds that accelerates disease, it is the psychoneuroimmunology of specific social wellbeing that should be examined. The susceptibility of aboriginals to alien disease is indisputable but the collapse of psychic wellbeing with the uprooting of faith and social certainty was a massive multiplier of vulnerability. (Plus distilled alcohol with heavy metal contamination). Robin -----Original Message----- From: W. Ray Stricklin [SMTP:ws31@umail.umd.edu] Sent: 20 March 1998 15:00 To: James F. Brody Cc: HBES List Serve; Applied Ethology Subject: Domestication and Disease On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:07:09 -0500 "James F. Brody" wrote: > I always thought of disease as a problem specific to > crowded conditions (like medieval european cities) not > hunter gatherer or agricultural societies. I believe it is too simplistic to state that disease is specific (or even primarily) a problem of crowded conditions. True, crowded conditions tend to exacerbate and magnify the problem - even promote the genetic adaptation of germs. But disease is also a problem of hunter gatherer societies - malaria for example and possibly syphilis in the pre-Columbian Americas. An interesting book on the evolution of diseases that arose from human contact with domestic animals is "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond, W.W. Norton & Company; 1997. (However, I don't necessarily agree with his overall view of farmers which tends to affect his wording, i.e., "But farmers are sedentary and live amid their own sewage..." (page 205).) The central contention of Diamond is that, "Far more Native Americans died in bed from Eurasian germs than on the battlefield from Eropean guns and swords." (page 210) and "There is no doubt that Europeans developed a big advantage in weaponry, technology, and political organization over most of the non-European peoples that they conquered. But that advantage alone doesn't fully explain how initially so few European immigrants came to supplant so much of the native population of the Americas and some other parts of the world. That might not have happened without Europe's sinister gift to other continents -- the germs evolving from Eurasians' long intimacy with domestic animals." There are some interesting bioethical issues related to points that Diamond raises - both past and present issues. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin ws31@umail.umd.edu From: IN%"nlp@princevc.com" "Nancy Prince" 22-MAR-1998 09:12:04.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Puppy Abortion Whew! There have been some very understanding and also some very arrogant posts on this subject, haven't there? Posts such as: "If the owners were so loving and caring, why did they allow their pets to become pregnant in the first place? And, since they were supposedly taking such wonderful care of their animals, why were they not AWARE that the animals had been mated?" and "First of all, why was the owner unaware that the dog was pregnant? There are very clear signs in both the canine and feline that signal onset of the heat cycle, if you know what to watch for. It is my opinion that no one should own an unneutered animal of any age if he/she is not familiar with these signs" ...malign a number of perfectly well-informed and responsible pet owners. (1) Sometimes an animal, no matter how well cared for, will escape from the house or pen in spite of all resonable precautions (let out by a babysitter or getting loose when a neighbor drives their truck through the fence are two such instances that I have heard of). I also have a friend whose stepson accidentally let their dog out while she was in heat and then, after catching the dog hours later and returning it to the house, did not say anything about the dog's escape until much later, so the owner had no idea the pet had been mated. These things happen to even the most loving and caring pet owners. (2) Also, it easy to tell when a pet is in heat, but that is not the same as being able to tell that she has mated!!! There seems to be an assumption in some of the posts that being in heat and being mated are the same thing, but they are not. In the last case above, my friend had no idea her pet had been out at all, much less that she could have been mated! And if the owner does not think of spaying in terms of a possible abortion, it will not occur to them to mention to the vet that there might have been an accidental exposures to males. (3) I think it is also worth pointing out that these people we are talking about DO care enough and know enough to have their pets spayed, or they would never have brought their pets to the vet for the operation, so how can they be as evil as some of these posts paint them? To those who say, "the owner would not have brought a pet to be spayed unless they did not want puppies/kittens," I feel I must point out that the general public (of which I am a member) often thinks of their pets in human terms, not in clinical terms. To many pet owners, their cats and dogs are, emotionally speaking, their "children" or "friends." And MANY people approve of preventative birth control but do NOT approve of abortion. There are a lot of people who will take The Pill or have a hysterectomy to prevent future pregnancies but who would NEVER have an abortion and kill a live fetus. Obviously, from these posts, at least some segment of the general public thinks of having an animal spayed as preventative birth control, not as a possible abortion. And, life being what it is, it just does not occur to them that their pets will be given an abortion if they are pregnant. Obviously it is dangerous for the animal for the vet to have to try to contact the owner during surgery, but one could say to the owner in advance something like "If your pet is pregnant, do you want us to continue with ther operation or, if it's possible, to stop the operation and do it at a later time after she has given birth?" Since at least some of the vets on this list do occasionally get the upset pet owner, it seems that simply making a practice of "fully informing"(!) the owner at the outset, and then go into surgery knowing what the owner prefers, would be the best thing for all concerned---the owners, the pets, and the vet. Nancy Prince nlp@star.org From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 22-MAR-1998 12:23:40.21 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody (E-mail)", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve" Subj: The Lancet Volume 351, Number 9101 - Saturday 14 February 1998 carried an article by Robert B Belshe titled: Influenza as a zoonosis: how likely is a pandemic? "The virological details of influenza A/HK/H5N1 (the prototype of which is known as A/HK/156/97[H5N1]) and the description of the illness it causes presented in this issue of The Lancet help substantially in the understanding of "chicken flu". The reports show that an avian influenza virus can cause severe illness and sometimes death in human beings; ... Fortunately, the efficiency of transmission of A/HK/156/97-like viruses to human beings seems to have been low. Such strains are highly pathogenic in birds and cause fowl plague. It caused the death of 70-100% of chickens in the infected flocks in Hong Kong. The occurrence of H5N1 cases in human beings is alarming, but this avian virus infrequently spreads to man. Serological surveillance for H5N1 infection in Hong Kong revealed infection in five of 29 poultry workers, none of four family members of the first case, only one of 54 health-care workers who looked after for the first case, and none of a sample of 419 from the general population of Hong Kong.1 Subsequent cases were identified in November and December, 1997--perhaps because of intensified surveillance or perhaps because of a true increase in virus transmission. The temporal association between the slaughter of chickens in Hong Kong and the end of new cases in human beings there suggests that avian influenza can be controlled by elimination of the source in poultry."........ How very different this scenario must be to that of the great world pandemic of 1919 when it is estimated that 22 million people died. Surely the socio-economic destruction and disruption of the First World War had a bearing on susceptibility? Apart from the dispersal of populations and the damage to trade and agriculture a black pall of killing grief must have enveloped millions of families from Russia to Canada. Can it be a coincidence that this benchmark pandemic was so devastating. Quite apart from the huge reservoir of sick and wounded survivors the return of millions of demobilised soldiers into a world of economic recession and despair must have aggravated the general vulnerability of populations. Here are some references on the topic of psychoneuroimmunology and also avian influenza for anyone who might be interested. 1 Update: isolation of avian influenza A (H5N1) viruses from humans--Hong Kong, 1997-98. Morbid Mortal Weekly Rep 1998; 46: 1245-47. 2 Update on influenza A H5N1, Government of Hong Kong website: http://www.info.gov.hk/dh/new/23-01-98.htm, Jan 23, 1998. Accessed on Feb 9, 1998. 3 Lee N. First chickens cross border. South China Morning Post, Feb 9, 1998. 4 Altman LK. "Bird flu" reveals gaps in global-outbreak plan. New York Times Jan 6, 1998. 5 Scholtissek C, von Hoyningen V, Rott R. Genetic relatedness between the new 1977 epidemic strains (H1N1) of influenza and human influenza strains isolated between 1947 and 1957 (H1N1). Virology 1978; 89: 613-17. 6 Powers DC, Smith GE, Anderson EL, et al. Influenza A virus vaccines containing purified recombinant H3 hemagglutinin are well tolerated and reduce protective immune responses in healthy adults. J Infect Dis 1995; 171: 1595-99. 7 Gruber WC, Belshe RB, King JC, et al. Evaluation of live attenuated influenza vaccines in children 6-18 months of age: safety, immunogenicity and efficacy. J Infect Dis 1996; 173: 1313-19. 8 Cohen S, et al Health psychology: psychological factors and physical disease from the perspective of human psychoneuroimmunology. Annu Rev Psychol. 1996; 47: 113-142. Review. 9 Orts K, et al The reliability and validity of a structured interview for the assessment of infectious illness symptoms. J Behav Med. 1995 Dec; 18(6): 517-529. 10 Lee DJ, et al. Psychosocial correlates of immune responsiveness and illness episodes in US Air Force Academy cadets undergoing basic cadet training. J Psychosom Res. 1995 May; 39(4): 445-457. . 11. Cacioppo JT. Social neuroscience: autonomic, neuroendocrine, and immune responses to stress. Psychophysiology. 1994 Mar; 31(2): 113-128. Review. From: IN%"racorn@cyberus.ca" "Rob Acorn" 22-MAR-1998 21:01:49.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: scratching cats Dear Everyone, Does anyone out there know how to get a 4&1/2 year old cat to stop scratching furniture? She has a scratching post that she uses, but she also uses the sofa and chair. We have tried squirting her with water when she scratches, but that didn't work, because she likes playing with water. It seemed to reinforce the scratching. Any suggestions would be welcome, but we don't want to declaw her. Thanks, Rob Acorn From: IN%"UKNIERIM@Itt.tiho-hannover.de" "Dr. Ute Knierim" 23-MAR-1998 01:21:21.15 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: mules and donkeys Dear all who responded to my query on mules and donkeys, many, many thanks for the surprisingly numerous replys. This was a lot of helpful information for my former student, and she now has quite a bit to do to follow it all up. So, thanks again and best wishes Ute ********************************************************************* Dr. Ute Knierim Institut fuer Tierhygiene und Tierschutz Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover Institute of Animal Hygiene and Welfare School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover Buenteweg 17 p D-30559 Hannover Tel +49 (0)511 953 8449 Fax +49 (0)511 953 8588 uknierim@itt.tiho-hannover.de ************************************************************************** From: IN%"Francien.deJonge@USERS.ECO.WAU.NL" 23-MAR-1998 05:18:20.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: stereotypy development Dear dr dr Toates, I have some data on developmental aspects of stereotypies. Not about age-related factors, though. My results showed that pigs reared in enriched environments show a declined tendency to show stereotypic behaviors in adulthood, when tethered. The results have not been published properly yet, but can be found in an abstract form in one of the ISAE conference books, (I think the last one from Prague) truly yours, Francien de Jonge From: IN%"camillew@ameritech.net" 23-MAR-1998 07:16:26.83 To: IN%"racorn@cyberus.ca" "Rob Acorn" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: scratching cats Hi Everyone, We have two cats--a siamese and Abyssinian. Both have their claws. As young cats (they are now both 7 years old), they scatched everthing from the couch to the chairs to the rug. About a year ago, we acquired one of those ceiling to wall cat-climbing/scratching post. It has what I think is called "sisal" rope around the vertical beams. These cats love this rope and really haven't paid much attention to the furniture since. We keep this large scratching post in our living room and have a smaller version, with the same rope, near the dinning room. This seems to have done the trick for the most part. I've also heard that spraying the posts with catnip works well, although we've never tried this. A bitter apple spray used on the furniture where scratching is concentrated sould help to focus the cat's attention away on the furniture while getting it used to the post. In summary, I found that the scratching post with the rope works best and having a few posts scattered around the house seems to do the trick. Also take them up to the posts and take their front paws and show them how scratch, all the while praising them in a low voice and maybe even offering them a favorite food treat to positively reinforce this behavior. Best of luck! Declawing should only be used as a last resort. I commend your efforts. Camille Ward Rob Acorn wrote: > > Dear Everyone, > Does anyone out there know how to get a 4&1/2 year old cat to stop > scratching furniture? She has a scratching post that she uses, but she also > uses the sofa and chair. We have tried squirting her with water when she > scratches, but that didn't work, because she likes playing with water. It > seemed to reinforce the scratching. Any suggestions would be welcome, but > we don't want to declaw her. > > Thanks, > Rob Acorn From: IN%"theix.inst-elevage@wanadoo.fr" "Institut de l'Elevage - Antenne de Theix" 23-MAR-1998 07:58:24.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Need some information hello, I am looking the addresses of Dr K. Zeeb and Dr P. K=E4mer, Thanks for your help. C Sarignac = if you have the answer could you send it to Lyon.inst-elevage@wanadoo.fr From: IN%"smillman@uoguelph.ca" "Suzanne Millman" 23-MAR-1998 08:06:44.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: claws Hey Rob, How is Ottawa? Those cat claws can be a real pain! I've been pretty lucky with my cats as I also bought one of those commercial scratching posts (a little one, covered with carpet and with the post on an angle). I was cynically sure it wouldn't work, but my cats have been pretty reliable on it and I started with catnip rubbed onto it. A couple of months ago we got a new toy with a cardboard, catnip doctored centre. My one cat has diverted her scratching to that-which suggests there may be some use to catnip? As for getting your cat away from scratching the furniture, Ian Dunbar was in Guelph in the fall giving behaviour lectures. IN one he suggested setting a trap for your scratching cat so that she is punished and doesn't associated it with you. As I remember he rigged up a classic comic book gag-empty pop cans suspended above the target area (sofa?chair?) so that when the naughty kitty claws, the cans fall on her, but don't hurt her. I think he also had a spray which works at making cats avoid the area. Heck, if I got loaded with pop cans I think I would avoid the area! (I wouldn't start with chasing her away from scratching there until you get her started on an acceptable site. It is territorial so she'll need to claw somewhere. Also, you may want to trim her claws with your nail clippers to minimize the damage she does. My guys accept trimming if it is followed by a treat) Best of luck. If I hear of any other ideas around here I'll email you. Cheers, Suzanne Millman From: IN%"mccracken_n@research.trc.upenn.edu" "McCracken_N" 23-MAR-1998 09:24:41.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: scratching cats Hi Everyone, I'm new to this list. I'm currently taking a course in animal behavior at U Penn and have always liked the subject. Rob's question reminds me of a problem we had with a kitten when I was a kid. He would scrape up the wall at the same place, day after day. So one day my dad rubbed amonia on the wall and held the kitten's face in it. The behavior stopped. It may sound a little cruel, but my dad is a kind man who wanted to preserve his house much as Rob wants to preserve his furniture. You have to teach a cat to associate scratching the furniture with a negative stimulus, like a nasty smell, just as a cat who chewed on things it shouldn't ought to be given a negative taste to associate with the chewing. Ned-Rod McCracken From: IN%"masuma@lucent.com" 23-MAR-1998 10:27:27.74 To: IN%"nlp@princevc.com" "Nancy Prince" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Puppy Abortion I hope this doesn't further inflame the issue, but I have to respond to this post. I'm not sure I would call it arrogant (probably because I'd be one of those people jumping up and down and demanding to know why the owner didn't know such-n-such) but all these people have probably seen the most rottenest side of unplanned pregnancies and are reacting to it. If you have ever had to put that blue liquid in an unwanted dog's veins, or held one who is about to die, you will know. Nancy Prince wrote: > Whew! There have been some very understanding and also some very arrogant > posts on this subject, haven't there? > however, > (1) Sometimes an animal, no matter how well cared for, will escape from > the house or pen in spite of all resonable precautions (let out by a I have to believe that happens. The reason I have never "accidentally" let out one of my kids is because I am extremely, extremely, extremely careful about it ALL THE TIME. I don't let anyone handle my "kids" unless I fully trust that person. Of course, bad things can happen and I'm fortunate not to have had to live through a lost dog incident. > (3) I think it is also worth pointing out that these people we are talking > about DO care enough and know enough to have their pets spayed, or they > would never have brought their pets to the vet for the operation, so how > can they be as evil as some of these posts paint them? > STILL, I have less to worry than your friend, since spaying and neutering is the FIRST THING I have had done to my kids. And they are my kids. I'm actually in the wee-tiny portion of the population that treat my canine kids better than most people treat their human kids. I would do anything for them, including give my life for them. Except, I will not let them have their own puppies. Cruel? Perhaps, but then again, I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be a great idea to start a spay and neuter program for humans to prevent accidental children? (Of course that's another inflamed subject all together) In the case of humans, accidental children a lot of times (not always) become society's problems. In the case of animals, accidentally born dogs are more than 70% of the time destroyed before they are 2 years old. No joke, and no exaggeration. > To those who say, "the owner would not have brought a pet to be spayed > unless they did not want puppies/kittens," I feel I must point out that the > general public (of which I am a member) often thinks of their pets in human > terms, not in clinical terms. To many pet owners, their cats and dogs are, > emotionally speaking, their "children" or "friends." And MANY people > approve of preventative birth control but do NOT approve of abortion. There > are a lot of people who will take The Pill or have a hysterectomy to > prevent future pregnancies but who would NEVER have an abortion and kill a > live fetus. Obviously, from these posts, at least some segment of the > general public thinks of having an animal spayed as preventative birth > control, not as a possible abortion. And, life being what it is, it just > does not occur to them that their pets will be given an abortion if they > are pregnant. > I would say, if one truly cares about the dog and wants to have the puppies that the dog has "accidentally" had, then be prepared to adopt all of them and spay and neuter them all. If the puppies are sold or adopted out, they will become part of that statistic above. Why? Since this was not a planned pregnancy, chances are the person is not experienced or knowledgeable enough about the pitfalls of adoptions and who to adopt to and how to make sure they are well and safe for their lifetime. Experienced breeders screw up on that one, let alone one time accidental breeders. And a lifetime of making sure they are okay means, the person has to be willing and able to take any one of them back at any time if the adopters change their mind. Adopters change their mind all the time - have a look at the shelter population to verify. More than 20 million dogs and cats are destroyed every year for that reason. So given all of that, abortion is proabably still the best choice for unwanted puppies - rather than having more than 70% of them go through a hell 2 years first before getting destroyed. > Obviously it is dangerous for the animal for the vet to have to try to > contact the owner during surgery, but one could say to the owner in advance > something like "If your pet is pregnant, do you want us to continue with > ther operation or, if it's possible, to stop the operation and do it at a > later time after she has given birth?" Since at least some of the vets on > this list do occasionally get the upset pet owner, it seems that simply > making a practice of "fully informing"(!) the owner at the outset, and > then go into surgery knowing what the owner prefers, would be the best > thing for all concerned---the owners, the pets, and the vet. > > Nancy Prince > nlp@star.org No doubt that's a good question to ask just to keep everyone informed. But I wonder if an informed but slightly clueless owner (I'm not point a finger at your friend, but most owners are) would be able to make the best decision for themselves, the puppies or all the other millions of unwanted dogs in the country waiting for a good home. Every puppy born is another one dead in a shelter. Take your pick, which one dies? Unless only planned pregnancies happen and all others are spayed and neutered before an accident happens, there is a bigger to picture to look. If the simple question is: who makes the decision, the vet or the owner, the answer is more complicated - the one who can make the best decision for those puppies. Finally a couple of anecdotes: I volunteer at a shelter fostering, training, dealing with behavioral issues and at the clinic. I try not to be near the front desk where people come in with all kind of excuses of why they have to give up a dog (the best one is, "I'm moving". I wonder if they turn in their human children at that point as well?). Anyway, one day at the clinic one of the spays was clearly more than half way pregnant. The man who had brought her in had made and broken appts several times over the previous year. He had a male and a female - both intact. He brought the male with him when dropping the female off (Oh, he just COULDN'T get himself to neuter the male!), and as she was waiting to be brought back, the male was trying to mount her still. And the man was just laughing at it. Boys will be boys, ya' know. The female had 8, that I held in my hands as they died. Their skin was thin enough for me to see the anaesthesia creeping down their vein. That owner didn't want to know. And I work with a someone who, despite many urgings, just hasn't had the time to take her dog to be spayed. This dog has some medical problems because she howls in pain when she is in heat. But everytime I've asked this woman, either it is a guest coming, a vacation coming up, the kids something or other taking up time - and she has no time to schedule a spay. She has also made and broken many appts. People like these claim they really love their companions and then act this way. Again, I'm not pointing a finger at your friend. However, companion animal service givers see these kinds of situations all too often. They can't help but assume most people care a marginal amount and would just like "it" to be taken care of; when those who care more walk in, they will take the time to go further with questions themselves. Owner drives the level of committment, not the vet. -- Masuma Barrett Email: masuma@lucent.com Lucent Technologies Voice: (303) 538-1228 11900 N. Pecos, Denver CO 80234 Fax: (303) 538-3907 From: IN%"masuma@lucent.com" 23-MAR-1998 10:46:54.85 To: IN%"racorn@cyberus.ca" "Rob Acorn" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: scratching cats It's hard to train cats NOT to do something since you have to enforce the rule EVERYTIME. If they get away with it once, they are more cunning than dogs and figure out that the rule exists only when you're around. However, with the squirting, you might want to get one of those long barrel squirt guns (so you can use it from far away) and fill it 50-50 with vinegar and water mixture. The vinegar doesn't hurt but sure makes it smell foul. Your cat might not find that as much fun. Good luck. Rob Acorn wrote: > Dear Everyone, > Does anyone out there know how to get a 4&1/2 year old cat to stop > scratching furniture? She has a scratching post that she uses, but she also > uses the sofa and chair. We have tried squirting her with water when she > scratches, but that didn't work, because she likes playing with water. It > seemed to reinforce the scratching. Any suggestions would be welcome, but > we don't want to declaw her. > > Thanks, > Rob Acorn -- Masuma Barrett Email: masuma@lucent.com Lucent Technologies Voice: (303) 538-1228 11900 N. Pecos, Denver CO 80234 Fax: (303) 538-3907 From: IN%"v.baumans@pobox.ruu.nl" 23-MAR-1998 10:48:58.45 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: puppiekilling First,shouldnt the owner know that the dog was pregnant.Then,pregnancy must have been in an early stage,otherwise the owner would have known for sure. When vets are spaying a dog,pregnancy will become apparent during surgery. What should they do? Leaving the dog on the operationtable and call the owner(if she is at home),Then close the dog again and have a fairly good chance that the dog will abort with all the problems for the bitch. I would be in favour of killing the nonmature fetuses.The only thing is how to tell the owner in a gentle way!Vera Baumans Vera Baumans,D.V.M.PhD Animal welfare officer University of Utrecht PO80.166 3508TD Utrecht The Netherlands v.baumans@pobox.ruu.nl tel:31 302531569 fax:31 302537997 From: IN%"S.Chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk" "Sarah Chaplin" 23-MAR-1998 11:13:13.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Horses and blasting Can anybody help the Dairy Health Unit with a horsey problem? An open cast mine/quarry is planned, to be sited near an existing trekking centre. Does anyone know how horses react to loud noises such as quarry blasting? We suppose that the horses will habituate to the noise as they habituate to traffic, the sound of shotguns and low-flying aircraft. But horses being horses (and possibly with nervous/novice riders in the equation too) might they begin to use the blasting as an excuse to spook, or even become sensitised rather than habituated? Probably a lot will depend on the temperaments of individual horses. Could an arrangement such as pre-arranged times for blasting make the situation more predictable and so prevent potential problems? Your help would be greatly appreciated, Yours, Sarah Sarah Chaplin Dairy Health Unit SAC Veterinary Services Auchincruive AYR KA6 5AE Tel.01292 520318 Fax.01292 521069 Email.s.chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 23-MAR-1998 12:27:17.73 To: IN%"masuma@lucent.com" "Masuma Barrett" CC: IN%"nlp@princevc.com" "Nancy Prince", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Puppy Abortion Masuma-- Excellent post! Now maybe we can get back to applied ethology? Ione ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/stereo.html the stereotypical behaviors database ================================================== I am always willing to learn, however I do not always like to be taught. -- Winston Churchill From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 23-MAR-1998 15:26:39.91 To: IN%"S.Chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk" "'Sarah Chaplin'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Horses and blasting The King's Troop Royal Artillery accustom horses to the close firing of thirteen pounder field guns.....I am sure that they are up to date on all complications and variations. Why not contact them? I believe Dr. Deborah Marsden and colleagues at Edinburgh have contacts with the military of the Royal Household. -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Chaplin [SMTP:S.Chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk] Sent: 23 March 1998 17:13 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Horses and blasting Can anybody help the Dairy Health Unit with a horsey problem? An open cast mine/quarry is planned, to be sited near an existing trekking centre. Does anyone know how horses react to loud noises such as quarry blasting? We suppose that the horses will habituate to the noise as they habituate to traffic, the sound of shotguns and low-flying aircraft. But horses being horses (and possibly with nervous/novice riders in the equation too) might they begin to use the blasting as an excuse to spook, or even become sensitised rather than habituated? Probably a lot will depend on the temperaments of individual horses. Could an arrangement such as pre-arranged times for blasting make the situation more predictable and so prevent potential problems? Your help would be greatly appreciated, Yours, Sarah Sarah Chaplin Dairy Health Unit SAC Veterinary Services Auchincruive AYR KA6 5AE Tel.01292 520318 Fax.01292 521069 Email.s.chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk From: IN%"csunsay@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu" "Ceyhun Sunsay" 23-MAR-1998 15:59:09.17 To: IN%"mccracken_n@research.trc.upenn.edu" "McCracken_N" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" Subj: RE: scratching cats Hi Ned, Let him scratch the wall,furniture. I was grown with cats. They always scratched the furniture. We let them do it. They like it and I like them as they are doing so. Maybe you can give him an old furniture for scratching. Ceyhun On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, McCracken_N wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I'm new to this list. I'm currently taking a course in animal behavior > at U Penn and have always liked the subject. > Rob's question reminds me of a problem we had with a kitten when I was a > kid. He would scrape up the wall at the same place, day after day. So one > day my dad rubbed amonia on the wall and held the kitten's face in it. The > behavior stopped. It may sound a little cruel, but my dad is a kind man who > wanted to preserve his house much as Rob wants to preserve his furniture. You > have to teach a cat to associate scratching the furniture with a negative > stimulus, like a nasty smell, just as a cat who chewed on things it shouldn't > ought to be given a negative taste to associate with the chewing. > > Ned-Rod McCracken From: IN%"eachberg@sophia.smith.edu" "Erika R Achberger" 23-MAR-1998 22:57:59.08 To: IN%"jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" "JANICE SWANSON" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Telepatic horses and dogs Hi, I am a liberal arts college student and can only add that one reason people are looking beyond modern "science" is that it does not recognize or legitimate much of the information that we as sentient being receive through our various senses-- the heirarchy between the subjective and objective-- and this is because the "founding fathers" of modern science denied the validity of these other methods of obtaining information about the world around us and we have not expanded the "method" to include these. (Sorry about the hastily written thought hope it was worth sharing even in this form) Erika R Achberger Smith College Box 6004 505 Highland Ave. 98 Green Street Northfield, MN 55057 Northampton, MA 01063-0100 Tel: 507.645.7937 Tel: 413.585.7666 (Park Annex) krach@stolaf.edu eachberg@sophia.smith.edu On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, JANICE SWANSON wrote: > Per, > > I have not had close contact with a mind reader but we have had > several television programs on our U.S. public educational > channels and commercial television which have highlighted these > activities. In one case the dog "told" the mind reader (dog was > depressed not eating) that when the woman in the house left (wife) > the man (husband) was having an affair. The dog was suffering from > having this knowledge and not being able to tell the wife. The mind > reader told the wife and the rest is history. This particular "mind > reader" lives in California (can't remember her name) and she works > with show horses and pets. > > There is an ever increasing movement to discredit or suspect anything > that is produced scientifically. The image of science in the U.S. is > not in good shape except among scientists and immediate > beneficiaries. Our attitudes and approaches to dealing with the > public sector has not helped the image. Scientists, once thought to > be objective, are increasingly attached or identified to special > interests involved in controversy. Their use of statistics and > commitment to anything high tech tends to confuse and scare people. > I would bet if you sampled the programming lists for television over > the past ten years you would see a definite increase in programs that > are focused on the paranormal. People are searching for alternative > explanations...especially those that engage the spirit and are not as > cold, calculating and mechanistic as science. We are often perceived > as dogmatic. > > I realize this does not help your quest for information ( we have > similar concerns here in the U.S). Perhaps instead of developing a > quest to prove mind readers false perhaps we need to study why people > are likely to turn to them and turn off science. > > Janice Swanson > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:50:09 +0100 > > From: Per Jensen > > Subject: Telepatic horses and dogs > > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > > Dear all, > > > > I brought up this issue some years ago, but the phenomenon seems to be > > increasing. I was recently asked for comments on a book manuscript on "how > > to read the minds of animals". This leads me to ask the members of this > > network again for comments and opinions. > > > > Around the world there are an increasing number of "mind-readers", who > > "speak to" horses and dogs. The animals tell them about their problems: "I > > do not like hot weather and all the demands from my owners make my skin > > itch. That's why I do this excessive scratching" (Alsacian, 7-year female). > > "I get stressed from all rush, I want to have a quiet corner where I can > > lie down and think about how sad life is" (Dairy cow which did not eat > > concentrate). "I like to work and I am good at it, but I get depressed from > > making mistakes. Then I get diarrhea, which helps me getting the shit out" > > (Horse, 11 years). > > > > (The examples are from the manuscript I have just read). > > > > Have anyone come in close contact with animal mind-readers? Is anyone > > familiar with any controlled study of the effects or mechanisms involved? > > > > To my mind, this is a frightening and dangerous type of activity, which > > draws the attention away from scientifically based therapies. I have once > > offered my participation in designing a double blind trial with a > > mind-reader, but the person was not interested after all. But maybe other > > such studies have been carried out? > > > > Looking forward to your responses. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Per Jensen > > > > *********************************************************** > > PER JENSEN, Professor of Ethology > > Swedish University of Agricultural Scinces > > Department of Animal Environment and Health > > Section of Ethology > > POB 234, SE-532 23 SKARA, Sweden > > Tel +46 511 67219 > > Fax +46 511 67204 > > E-mail Per.Jensen@hmh.slu.se > > *********************************************************** From: IN%"eachberg@sophia.smith.edu" "Erika R Achberger" 23-MAR-1998 23:44:03.44 To: IN%"Mike@m-tay.demon.co.uk" "--Mike Taylor --" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Feline Behaviour sounds like a joke to me:) Erika R Achberger Smith College Box 6004 505 Highland Ave. 98 Green Street Northfield, MN 55057 Northampton, MA 01063-0100 Tel: 507.645.7937 Tel: 413.585.7666 (Park Annex) krach@stolaf.edu eachberg@sophia.smith.edu On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, --Mike Taylor -- wrote: > > I have a couple of interesting cat behaviour problems that I hope > someone may like to comment on. > > Normally cats will bring back birds or mice etc for their owners. My > first cat is a little bit different, it brings home large earthworms! > Not the occasional one or two but anything up to 20 - 25 a day (Its > owners must have excellent soil in their garden). These worms are in the > main undamaged and the cat makes no attempt to eat them. The cat also > apparently digs for these worms, its not as if they were wriggling about > on the surface. The owners are becoming a little paranoid as they now > even wake up in the morning and find worms on their pillow, they have a > cat flap. There are two other cats in residence. I have not really got > much of a clue why the cat does this, especially as it digs for them, > far or less any idea how to stop it. > > My second cat is even more peculiar, or not depending on how you view > it. It steals underwear from washing lines! and takes it home. It is not > sexist it steals mens and womens, bras, y-fronts, frillies and even > socks. The cats owners know it is from washing lines as some of the > items still have the pegs on them. Recently things took a turn for the > worse and it started coming home with unwashed items! The owners now > suspect it of going into houses and picking up its favourite items. > Needless to say its owners are rather embarrassed about going round > their neighbours trying to find the owners of the various stolen items. > > I suspect that what is happening here is that the cats sees these items > flapping in the breeze on the washing lines and mistakes them for birds, > jumps at them, catches them and takes home the trophy. Then one day it > happened to wander into someones house and finds its favourite items > just lying about and decides that this is a much easier way to get the > trophies than all the energy wasting jumping up and catching. > > Can anyone suggest anything different or more to the point can anyone > suggest how to stop this cat and prevent any more red faces? > > thanks > > --Mike Taylor -- From: IN%"D.Goodwin@soton.ac.uk" "debbie goodwin" 24-MAR-1998 04:09:09.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: PhD Studentship: Population dynamics and behavioural genetics of feral domestic cats Applications are invited from biology/zoology/genetics/veterinary graduates (I / 2:I) for a PhD studentship based at the Anthrozoology Institute, Southampton University, UK. The studentship will be jointly supervised by Dr. John Bradshaw and Dr. John Allen. In many parts of the UK, over 90% of the owned domestic cat population is neutered, and as a result the majority of breeding animals are strays or ferals. This unprecedented situation has considerable implications for the population dynamics and population genetics of the cat; reproductive success is becoming more dependent upon the avoidance of neutering, and less on the ability to fit the niche (human households) which provides the optimum resources for longevity (food, shelter and avoidance of disease and parasites). The student will work alongside an established team working in this general area, including a postdoctoral Fellow (funded by the RSPCA), and will continue and develop from a similar PhD study due to be completed in 1998. As well as traditional techniques such as radiotracking, facilities for microsatellite DNA analysis of relatedness will also be available. Postgraduate application forms are avaiable from Mrs. E.Scappaticci, Biodiversity and Ecology University of Southampton, Bassett Crescent East, Southampton SO16 7PX, uk. Further information about this project and the Anthrozoology Institute's research in other areas can be found on the AzI website ---------------------- J W S Bradshaw BA PhD Waltham Director of the Anthrozoology Institute School of Biological Sciences University of Southampton SO16 7PX Tel: (0)1703-594367 Fax: (0)1703-594269 AzI web site at http://www.soton.ac.uk/~azi/azi.htm e-mail: jwsb@soton.ac.uk From: IN%"jcox@netcomuk.co.uk" 24-MAR-1998 04:44:00.23 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Chickens Ethologists are not the only crowd with 1001 different perspectives on the same issue... Why did the chicken cross the road?? KINDERGARTEN TEACHER: To get to the other side. PLATO: For the greater good. ARISTOTLE: It is the nature of chickens to cross roads. KARL MARX: It was a historical inevitability. TIMOTHY LEARY: Because that's the only trip the establishment would let it take. SADDAM HUSSEIN: This was an unprovoked act of rebellion and we were quite justified in dropping 50 tons of nerve gas on it. JACK NICHOLSON: 'cause it f.....g wanted to.That's the f.....g reason. RONALD REAGAN: I forget. CAPTAIN JAMES T. KIRK: To boldly go where no chicken has gone before. HIPPOCRATES: Because of an excess of phlegm in its pancreas. JOHNNY CARSON: Because it heard there was a man over there laying bricks and it wanted to see for itself! LOUIS FARRAKHAN: The road, you see, represents the black man. The chicken 'crossed' the black man in order to trample him and keep him down. MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.: I envision a world where all chickens will be free to cross roads without having their motives called into question. MOSES: And God came down from the Heavens, and He said unto the chicken, "Thou shalt cross the road." And the chicken crossed the road, and there was much rejoicing. FOX MULDER: You saw it cross the road with your own eyes. How many more chickens have to cross the road before you believe it? RICHARD M. NIXON: The chicken did not cross the road. I repeat,the chicken did NOT cross the road. MACHIAVELLI: The point is that the chicken crossed the road. Who cares why? The end of crossing the road justifies whatever motive there was. JERRY SEINFELD: Why does anyone cross a road? I mean, why doesn't anyone ever think to ask, "What the heck was this chicken doing walking around all over the place, anyway?" FREUD: The fact that you are at all concerned that the chicken crossed the road reveals your underlying sexual insecurity. BILL GATES: I have just released the new Chicken Office 2000, which will not only cross roads, but will lay eggs, file your important documents, and balance your check book. OLIVER STONE: The question is not, "Why did the chicken cross the road?" Rather, it is, "Who was crossing the road at the same time, whom we overlooked in our haste to observe the chicken crossing?" DARWIN: Chickens, over great periods of time, have been naturally selected in such a way that they are now genetically disposed to cross roads. EINSTEIN: Whether the chicken crossed the road or the road moved beneath the chicken depends upon your frame of reference. BUDDHA: Asking this question denies your own chicken nature. RALPH WALDO EMERSON: The chicken did not cross the road. . .it transcended it. COLONEL SANDERS: I missed one? ERNEST HEMINGWAY: To die. In the rain. From: IN%"uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar" "Dr. Leopoldo Estol" 25-MAR-1998 03:29:05.98 To: IN%"ndale@uga.cc.uga.edu" "UGA Nick Dale", IN%"bhollett@calc.vet.uga.edu" "UGA CE Bruce Hollett", IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "SVME Ione Smith", IN%"research_animals@rspca.org.uk" "RSPCA Penny Hawkins", IN%"rclarke@ava.com.au" "Roger Clarke Au CC: IN%"Magoy@lanet.losandes.com.ar" "Mendoza Manuel Godoy" Subj: Columba Livia control Dear fellows I want to know legislative and practical measures for urban and rural pigeon control of Columba Livia. A colleague is working in a legislative project of revision of the law about fauna control and ask me for help. Thank you in advance. Polo a.k.a.: Profesor Leopoldo Estol, Medico Veterinario, Diplomado en Salud Publica. Director, Carrera de Veterinaria, Universidad del Salvador. Campus " N. S. del Pilar", C.C. 198, Pilar 1629, Provincia de Buenos Aires, ARGENTINA. Home phone (International + 54 1) 555 4580 & 552 1476 Office Fax. & Phone (International + 54 322) 31260 & 31261 & 31262 & 31263 & 90503 & 26053 & 26057 E-mail: uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar URL: http://www.salvador.edu.ar/uaf3-2.htm From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 25-MAR-1998 03:43:40.84 To: IN%"uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar" "Dr. Leopoldo Estol" CC: IN%"research_animals@rspca.org.uk" "RSPCA Penny Hawkins", IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" Subj: RE: Columba Livia control I would be very interested in any information about success of non-lethal control measures for feral pigeons in a city environment. I am one of the trustees of a small wildlife hospital near Cambridge & one of our current projects is an attempt to encourage control methods which do not harm the birds. (On the basis that it's pretty daft to spend money patching up the odd injured pigeon while lots of perfectly fit & healthy ones are being killed because they are a nuisance). On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Dr. Leopoldo Estol wrote: > Dear fellows > I want to know legislative and practical measures for urban and rural pigeon > control of Columba Livia. > A colleague is working in a legislative project of revision of the law about > fauna control and ask me for help. > Thank you in advance. > > Polo > > a.k.a.: Profesor Leopoldo Estol, Medico Veterinario, Diplomado en Salud > Publica. > Director, Carrera de Veterinaria, Universidad del Salvador. > Campus " N. S. del Pilar", > C.C. 198, Pilar 1629, Provincia de Buenos Aires, ARGENTINA. > Home phone (International + 54 1) 555 4580 & 552 1476 > Office Fax. & Phone (International + 54 322) 31260 & 31261 & 31262 & 31263 & > 90503 & 26053 & 26057 > E-mail: uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar > URL: http://www.salvador.edu.ar/uaf3-2.htm > > ---------------------------------------- My opinions are my own Rosemary Rodd 01223 335029 From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 25-MAR-1998 09:51:59.58 To: IN%"jcox@netcomuk.co.uk", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Chickens -Reply Billy Pilgrim: The Chicken is crossing, always has crossed, and always will be crossing the road. From: IN%"Linda.Keeling@hmh.slu.se" "Linda Keeling" 25-MAR-1998 10:35:54.64 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: chickens - applied ethologist APPLIED ETHOLOGIST - But what really matters for chicken welfare is whether the behaviour was goal directed (to reach the other side) or whether chickens actually have a behavioural need to cross roads! From: IN%"jmorrow@ansc.purdue.edu" "Julie Morrow-Tesch" 25-MAR-1998 10:58:02.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied ethology network'" CC: Subj: RE: chickens - applied ethologist If there was another chicken of the opposite sex on the other side of the road would it be goal oriented or a behavioral need? -----Original Message----- From: Linda Keeling [SMTP:Linda.Keeling@hmh.slu.se] Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 1998 11:37 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: chickens - applied ethologist APPLIED ETHOLOGIST - But what really matters for chicken welfare is whether the behaviour was goal directed (to reach the other side) or whether chickens actually have a behavioural need to cross roads! From: IN%"D.Goodwin@soton.ac.uk" "debbie goodwin" 25-MAR-1998 11:23:02.14 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAZ '98 Abstract Deadline Just a quick reminder that the Abstract deadline for ISAZ '98 in Prague, CZ, is 31st March. The theme for this year's conference is Human - Companion Animal Communication: Understandings and Misunderstandings. This includes Equines! Full details are available via the ISAZ web site http://www.soton.ac.uk/~azi/isaz1.htm Hope to see you in Prague...and for those of you who dread dog/cat/horse mails you can look forward to a quiet time on the list at the beginning of September :-) Debbie Goodwin Anthrozoology Institute University of Southampton From: IN%"kasia@bison.zbs.bialowieza.pl" "Katarzyna Daleszczyk" 25-MAR-1998 13:55:47.45 To: IN%"ETHOLOGY@SEGATE.SUNET.SE" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: mating area of a cat male Hello, I live in a village with a number of cats. Of course they have their mating time now and I have some questions connected with this behaviour (hoping that somebody knows the answers): - how big area can be penetrated by a male cat during mating time? - is this connected with the number of females in his neighbourhood? - if there isn't any female relatively close to his home does he move from one end of village to another just to find one? Bye, Kasia From: IN%"cj@tarzan.Stanford.EDU" "Cynthia J. Doane" 25-MAR-1998 15:00:36.34 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: introduction Hello Everyone, I just added myself to the applied ethology list and would like to introduce myself. My name is CJ. My educational background is a BS in Cognitvie Science as well as a year of grad school in neuroscience. I recently left the grad program to pursue what I am really interested in and that is behavior. My specific interests are non-human primate social behavior and evolution but I am more than happy to here a good theory for any species! I am currently preparing to apply to both veterinary school and primatology graduate programs this fall. Any suggestions or opinions on both are greatly appreciated. I hope we have many a productive conversation! Cheers, CJ From: IN%"ctb1@psu.edu" "C. Thomas Blair" 25-MAR-1998 15:11:45.50 To: IN%"mccracken_n@research.trc.upenn.edu" "McCracken_N" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: scratching cats Hi Ned, I don't know where this thread originated from, but I noticed that your response below included using amonia as a deterrent to cat scratching. I'm certainly no expert YET *smile* on the issues surrounding feline behaviour, but everything I have read, heard, etc. on the issue warns of using amonia as a deterrent for anything involving cats, as amonia smells very similar to feline urine, a component used in marking, which could result in a more serious problem; inappropriate elimination! Common treatment recommended by most companion animal therapists and veterinarians begins by making the problem scratching site unpalatible to the cat and simultaneously reinforcing scratching behaviour in a more appropriate location/object, (scratching post, wooden log, etc.). I have heard the gamit when it comes to making sites unattractive, but the most typical materials used are aluminum foil and bubble wrap. Another more unorthodox method which I have had success with in the past has been attaching inflated balloons to a site and letting the popping noise scare the wits out of the cat in question. I have had to alter this strategy a bit, as one of the cats in the welfare center where I volunteer had a penchant for chewing latex. A mixture of tabasco and water applied to the inflated balloons solved that problem. Proximity association often seems to work as well, especially in conjunction with the above detraction methods. When placing an object in close proximity to the undesirable object and making the object you're trying to protect undesirable it usually serves to transfer the scratching behaviour to the new object. Once the new scratching object has been established, gradually moving the new object to a more appropriate location while keeping the old object wrapped in the deterrent solves the scratching problem MOST of the time. Anyway, I don't know if that info will help anyone but I wanted to make certain I at least warned people about the ammonia. At 10:23 AM 3/23/98 +0800, you wrote: >Hi Everyone, > > I'm new to this list. I'm currently taking a course in animal behavior >at U Penn and have always liked the subject. > Rob's question reminds me of a problem we had with a kitten when I was a >kid. He would scrape up the wall at the same place, day after day. So one >day my dad rubbed amonia on the wall and held the kitten's face in it. The >behavior stopped. It may sound a little cruel, but my dad is a kind man who >wanted to preserve his house much as Rob wants to preserve his furniture. You >have to teach a cat to associate scratching the furniture with a negative >stimulus, like a nasty smell, just as a cat who chewed on things it shouldn't >ought to be given a negative taste to associate with the chewing. > >Ned-Rod McCracken > > > ------------------------------------------------- C. Thomas Blair, Jr. Executive Director's Office Computer & Information Systems The Pennsylvania State University Email: ctb1@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/ctb1 -------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"F.Toates@open.ac.uk" "F.Toates (Fred Toates)" 26-MAR-1998 05:23:09.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: thanks x 2 Dear all, Many thanks to those who responded in various ways to my 2 messages recently. Most helpful. Regards, Fred From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 26-MAR-1998 07:26:32.23 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" CC: Subj: DSM: Healing the Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution Dinner & Chianti Seminar... It's been said that pioneer neuroscientist Ramon y Cajal observed neurons= in the morning and made his drawings in the afternoon, but in a cafe accompanied by some wine. Hardly within Normal Science but maybe not su= ch a bad idea either... A student, last summer in "Clinical Sociobiology: Taking Charge of Your Genes," remarked about the need to chuck the DSM and design a new one. = We're gonna try it this summer. Dylan Evans (Ph. D. candidate, Dept. of= Philosophy, London School of Economics) is writing a dissertation on this= very topic. Russ Gardner is adamant that his "sociophysiology" is a good model for a basic science of psychiatry. Pearce is into both evolution and psych adaptations. I will set up a pasta dinner at a private spot (with chalkboard) on the Cape one evening for a dozen of us to brainstorm= this very topic. John Fentress from Dalhousie and Robin Walker of the U.K. will be in the group. A comparable seminar for applying complexity theory to psychopathology is= also possible -- given sufficient interest -- and could easily produce an= even more satisfactory schema. Looking for a flock of 12 Diogenes who also enjoy cooperative play. = Contact me by snail or the wire if you want to join either group for an evening! Jim Brody jbrody @compuserve.com. 1262 W. Bridge Spring-by-gawd-City, PA, 19475, USA "Healing the Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution" July 20-24, 1998 Eastham (on Cape Cod), MA, USA Robert Wright, John Pearce, M.D., Russell Gardner, M.D., James Brody, Ph.= D. Course registration: http://www.cape.org/1998/ "Excellent ......it has been lonely in the cellars under the DSM...diggin= g in the dark and grinding my home-made gunpowder. Suddenly there are expert fellow conspirators with high grade smokeless academic explosive! = = Hey .. I'll hold your coats and carry stuff! "Rob" From: IN%"lolax@webtv.net" 26-MAR-1998 18:57:18.98 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: New member (Amy McGonagle) I am new to this mailing list and am just beginning in my studies of ethology. I look forward to being kept up to date on the latest in this field From: IN%"eachberg@sophia.smith.edu" "Erika R Achberger" 26-MAR-1998 22:52:54.60 To: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" CC: IN%"uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar" "Dr. Leopoldo Estol", IN%"research_animals@rspca.org.uk" "RSPCA Penny Hawkins", IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" Subj: RE: Columba Livia control Hi, I am responding to the posts about pigeon control in the city. I didn't catch which one it was, but I read in a magazine, (it may have been PETA, whatever that means to people) the in Switzerland, I can't remember whether it was Basel or Bern, but I think Basel, they have been absolutely successful by having an education measure and a law (I believe) against feeding them. How simple! Their population regulates naturally according ot the amount of food available. And I might note that white bread crumbs are not particularly nourishing and the pigeons living on this fare not terribly healthy. The answer to a manageable, healthy pigeon population in the city: Measures to stop the feeding of them. It can be done. And with out all kinds of crazy contraptions or poisons. It's not fair to feed all those birds and then try to make all the rooftops unihabitable (electric elements have been installed in many european cities). Write back if my post was unclear at all. Erika R Achberger Smith College Box 6004 505 Highland Ave. 98 Green Street Northfield, MN 55057 Northampton, MA 01063-0100 Tel: 507.645.7937 Tel: 413.585.7666 (Park Annex) krach@stolaf.edu eachberg@sophia.smith.edu From: IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com" "Howl Bloom" 26-MAR-1998 23:26:24.91 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" CC: Subj: RE: DSM: Healing the Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution In a message dated 98-03-26 08:26:48 EST, JBrody@compuserve.com writes: << Russ Gardner is adamant that his "sociophysiology" is a good model for a basic science of psychiatry. >> This sounds extremely intriguing. Shamans and "witch doctors" in many cultures heal primarily by discovering the tears in the "patient's" social web, then mending them by straightening out conflicts. Neurobioimmunological studies would indicate that there's validity to this approach. Looking at it in terms of a spacial module such as that in the hippocampus coopted for other uses, it's easy to imagine that a part of our map of reality, the one I just referred to when talking about the self, solidifies the emotional topograpy of our social net. We know from neurobioimmunology that ripping this map or yanking familiar and necessary elements from it produces mental and physical illness, then by lowering immune levels, invites assault from microorganisms who when they settle in for a good meal multiply an individual's woes. I also suspect that one of the primary values of most psychotherapies is that they allow a person without any stable social points in his or her map to "buy" a friend with whom they can be open about those things social convention forces them to hide from their so-called friends, many of whom are superficially warm but actually wary acquaintances whom one fears could easily back away from the yearning voids of one's psyche. If you get a chance, could you post more about Russ' sociophysiological model? Or perhaps persuade Russell to do it. Howard ---------- Howard Bloom (founder: International Paleopsychology Project; member: New York Academy of Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, American Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and Evolution Society, European Sociobiological Society; board member: Epic of Evolution Society) 705 President Street Brooklyn, NY 11215 phone 718 622 2278 fax 718 398 2551 e-mail howard@paleopsych.org for two chapters from The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History, see www.bookworld.com/lucifer From: IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu" "Ted Friend" 27-MAR-1998 10:04:31.91 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Police pigs Ya'll: I just got a call from the Houston Plice Department. They want to try to train some pigs for drug detection work. There are a few obvious problems, e.g., size (I told them where to get some mini and micro pigs), their basic personality, etc., but they heard that pigs are being used for drug detection work in Europe. Has anyone out there heard about police departments using pigs for drug detection work? If you have heard something, do you have any specific information about their use, who is doing it, etc.? I once had a pet "guard hog" and had to put a "beware of hog" sign on my gates, but in this case they are interested in pigs that can sniff luggage at airports, etc. Thanks Ted Friend From: IN%"jkincaid@unix.kawartha.com" 27-MAR-1998 16:56:52.34 To: IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu" "Ted Friend" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Police pigs Ted Friend wrote: > > Ya'll: > > I just got a call from the Houston Plice Department. They want to try to > train some pigs for drug detection work. There are a few obvious problems, > e.g., size (I told them where to get some mini and micro pigs), their basic > personality, etc., but they heard that pigs are being used for drug > detection work in Europe. > > Has anyone out there heard about police departments using pigs for drug > detection work? If you have heard something, do you have any specific > information about their use, who is doing it, etc.? > > I once had a pet "guard hog" and had to put a "beware of hog" sign on my > gates, but in this case they are interested in pigs that can sniff luggage > at airports, etc. > > Thanks > > Ted Friend Hello Ted When first reading the suject I thought oh oh somebody really is a police hater. I have nothing but a comment to offer which is that knowing pigs as I do they would probably have a very hard time on the carousels. Even some dogs are not used because of this. Take care John From: IN%"Henrik.B.Simonsen@ihh.kvl.dk" "Henrik B Simonsen" 30-MAR-1998 05:44:56.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Ferrets: ovario-hysterectomi Dear All. The Ferret (Mustela furo) has become increasingly popular in Denmark as a = pet animal. The vast majority of the females ar ovario-hysterectomized = because it is the general opinion, that the intact female ferret if not = mated followed by mating induced ovulation, will maintain a very high = level of estrogen production in many cases eventually leading to aplastic = anemia and death. Has anybody scientific information which can elucidate this in my opinion = rather strange phenomenon. Best wishes to all from Henrik B. Simonsen Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University Division of Ethology and Health B=FClowsvej 13 DK-1870 Frederiksberg c Copenhagen Denmark Phone +45 35 28 30 14 Fax +45 35 28 30 22 E-mail hbs@kvl.dk From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 30-MAR-1998 07:42:47.54 To: IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Kidney stones One of my clients remarked that hospitals "see" a run of kidney stones in= March and late summer. Peculiar if true. = Explanations??? Links between electrolytes changes and bipolar incidents??? Thank you, Jim Brody From: IN%"inwmd5@webtv.net" 30-MAR-1998 08:35:27.30 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" CC: IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Kidney stones --Boundary_(ID_8AkryDI4hH7xN/UMGQiNgA) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I don't know about March and late summer, but I would expect a higher incidence of kidney stones in hot weather, especially if there is not increased fluid intake. The hot weather would result in decreasd urine volume(more fluid lost through evaporation and sweating) and therefore increased chance of crystalloid precipitation in the urinary tract. Cheers, Irving --Boundary_(ID_8AkryDI4hH7xN/UMGQiNgA) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:42:06 -0500 From: "James F. Brody" Subject: Kidney stones Sender: owner-paleopsych@kumo.com To: Paleopsych , HBES List Serve , Applied Ethology Message-id: <199803300842_MC2-3858-F339@compuserve.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by maxwell.kumo.com id GAA09974 X-Authentication-warning: maxwell.kumo.com: majordom set sender to owner-paleopsych@kumo.com using -f One of my clients remarked that hospitals "see" a run of kidney stones in March and late summer. Peculiar if true. Explanations??? Links between electrolytes changes and bipolar incidents??? Thank you, Jim Brody --Boundary_(ID_8AkryDI4hH7xN/UMGQiNgA)-- From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 30-MAR-1998 08:46:30.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Bioethics: People Engineering --Boundary_(ID_X4e2ST8q+3xhu8V6k9G9FQ) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII To Those Interested in Bioethics, Attached is a Washington Post article (by Phil Bereano) on the topic of Genetic Testing of Humans that was forwarded to me from a separate list server. A brief statement from the article follows: "In blindly embracing genetic testing, we risk becoming environmentally complacent, culturally fatalistic and even genetically vindictive. Genetic determinism can reinforce a "blame the victim" mindset, in which individuals with "faulty" genes are seen to be the primary cause of illness or disease. Social conditions -- such as poverty or environmental pollution-both of which correlate directly with poor health and higher mortality rates - are downplayed by deterministic thinking." I am not endorsing the entire article, but I think some interesting points are raised - especially the author's view of genetic determinism. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland ws31@umail.umd.edu --Boundary_(ID_X4e2ST8q+3xhu8V6k9G9FQ) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822; name=t62.tmp This is the text of an opinion piece I had in the Sunday Washington Post, March 22. Phil =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Genetic Testing By Phil Bereano and Richard Sclove Bill Clinton has a bold vision for the future of genetic testing. Before long, such tests "will enable every set of parents that has a little baby to get a map of the genetic structure of their child," he declared during the 1996 presidential campaign. Forewarned that their child has a predis=1Fposition to kidney disease or stroke, parents will be able to "plan that child's life =8A to organize the diet plan, the exercise plan, the medical treatment that would enable untold numbers of people to have far more full lives." Unfortunately, as Clinton noted in this year's State of Union address, the very same information about our genetic predispositions can also be legally used by insurers to deny medical coverage, by companies to deny employment and by telemarketers to tailor invasive come-ons. Thus. a technology with the potential to improve and prolong lives could be used to create a nightmarish brave new world. The social dangers of genetic testing are not inevita=1Fble. But preventing them depends on greater public understanding of the politics of genetic testing-an understanding often obscured by the perception that science and scientists are somehow above politics. Perhaps the biggest danger of genetic testing is that a healthy fascination with the possibilities of gene research can blur into an ideology of genetic determinism: the mistaken belief that genes are the decisive factor in an individual's behavior, character and future. In blindly embracing genetic testing, we risk becom=1Fing environmentally complacent, culturally fatalistic and even genetically vindictive. Genetic determinism can reinforce a "blame the vic=1Ftim" mindset, in which individuals with "faulty" genes are seen to be the primary cause of illness or disease. Social conditions -- such as poverty or environmental pollution-both of which cor=1Frelate directly with poor health and higher mortality rates - are downplayed by deterministic thinking. We need to recognize the ways that the use of all kinds of tests reflect differences in power. Test=1Fing -for drugs, academic skills. HT\7 or whatever- does not equally benefit or penalize all segments of society, nor is it intend=1Fed to do so. Employers test employees, insurance companies an= d health or=1Fganizations test patients, universities test students, and legislators pass bills to test welfare recipients, immigrants and prisoners. In general, organizations or people or governmental agencies with power do the testing while individuals with less power get tested. These practices simply reflect the fact that the time, money and knowledge necessary to deploy sophisticated technologies are available only to groups that are already powerful. When these groups act in their own self-=1Finterest, they naturally seek to express, consolidate and extend their powers. Proponents of testing, eager to minimize opposition, rarely acknowledge this. One vivid illustration of the politics of genetic testing is the disturbing trend toward genetic surveillance. The Defense Department, for example, now takes DNA samples from all its personnel, saying this will make it easier to identify soldiers killed in action or in military accidents. But the Pentagon plans to keep the DNA samples for 50 years (i.e., long after people have left active duty) and to include civilian employees. The Pentagon also will not accept waivers from next-of-kin who do not want a deceased soldier's tissues subjected to genetic testing, and refuses to issue regulations barring all third-party use of its DNA samples -- for example, by commercial biotechnology companies or genetic data-base services. The FBI is promoting genetic screening of criminals to establish DNA-identification data banks in every state for use in criminal investigations. Medical patients' records are already becoming commodities for sale. A panel of the U.S. National Research Council warned last year that the computerized medical records of millions of Americans are open to misuse and abuse. While government and business are using genetic testing to advance their goals, more and more Ameri=1Fcans are finding that they are paying a price. Scientists working with the Council for Responsible Genetics, a nonprofit advocacy group based in Cambridge, Mass., have documented hundreds of cases in which healthy people have been denied insurance or a job based on genetic "predictions." These cases include: =85 A health maintenance organization told a pregnant woman whose fetus tested positive for cystic fibrosis that it would pay for an abortion but that, if she elected to give birth, it would not cover the infant under the family's medical policy. =85 A healthy boy in California t(}()k medication that eliminated all the risk associated with his predisposition to a heart disorder. Even so, his parents' insurance company ruled him genetically ineligible fur health coverage. =85 In the early 1990s, the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory secretly tested African American employees for sickle-cell genes and female employees for pregnancy. When a group of employees filed suit, the laboratory stopped the practice. A judge dismissed the case, but the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled last month that such a practice would be unconstitu=1Ftional if the plaintiffs can prove that it occurred The lowe= r court is reconsider=1Fing. Under the right circumstances, some genetic science can be developed in a truly beneficial mariner. But broader public in=1Fvolvement is urgently needed. Testing policies should be based on an understand=1Fing that most genetic tests (even when accurate and correctly administered) cannot tell us if a genetic predisposition to disease will become manifest or, if it does, how severe the condition will be and when it will occur. Genetic privacy, like medical privacy, is vital to the dignity and integrity of the individual. The American Civil Liberties Union argues that genetic data should only be collected voluntarily, using modern notions of informed consent. Mandatory testing, surreptitious testing or testing coerced as a precondition for insurance coverage or a job are invasions of privacy. Informed consent should clearly specify future allowable uses of genetic samples. Privacy is no less compromised by research uses without consent just because the violator is wearing a lab coat. The government of Denmark has shown how to establish more farsighted policies for dealing with new technologies by involving the public in legislative deliberations. For more than a decade, panels of Danish citizens have cross-examined experts and stakeholders, and offered non-binding science policy recommenda=1Ftions. In 1989, a panel seconded expert support for basic genetics research, but called for more research on the interplay between environmental factors and genetic inheritance and on the social consequences of science. The panel also recommended a more 'humanistic and interdisciplinary" national research portfolio that would stimulate constructive debate about research repercussions. The report of the citizens' panel helped influence the Danish parliament to prohibit the use of genetic =1Fscreening information in employment and insurance decisions. This carefully structured, participatory process is being emulated in the United Kingdom, Japan, the Netherlands and Switzerland. U.S. genetic testing policies will improve when decision makers learn that-along with research administrators, Nobel laureates and CEOs - the average citizen must be heard, too. Although their proponents invariably proclaim that new technologies will bring unprecedented prosperity and freedom, they can also threaten our civic values. What Thomas Jefferson called "cherished liberty" is not determined by our genes. It is determined by our eternal vigilance. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Philip L. Bereano Professor Department of Technical Communication University of Washington 14 Loew Hall, Box 352195 Seattle, WA 98195-2195 ph: (206) 543-9037 fx: (206) 543-8858 e-mail: phil@uwtc.washington.edu <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< --Boundary_(ID_X4e2ST8q+3xhu8V6k9G9FQ)-- From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 30-MAR-1998 10:07:31.70 To: IN%"Henrik.B.Simonsen@ihh.kvl.dk" "'Henrik B Simonsen'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Ferrets: ovario-hysterectomi Tierarztl Prax 1987;15(3):333-335 =20 [Aplastic anemia in ferrets]. [Article in German] Baumgartner W, Juchem R Institut fur Veterinar-Pathologie der Justus-Liebig-Universitat, = Giessen. The present report describes both estrus associated and estrogen induced aplastic anemia in 7 female ferrets. The animals were presented with = anemia, anorexia, apathy, melena and subcutaneous hemorrhages. Histologically, = the animals showed panmyelophthisis and cystic endometrial hyperplasia. PMID: 3424362, UI: 88100589 ---------- Search Public Medline for 'ferret and estrogen and anemia' ..7 = papers inc above regards=20 Robin -----Original Message----- From: Henrik B Simonsen [SMTP:Henrik.B.Simonsen@ihh.kvl.dk] Sent: 30 March 1998 13:49 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Ferrets: ovario-hysterectomi Dear All. The Ferret (Mustela furo) has become increasingly popular in Denmark as = a pet animal. The vast majority of the females ar ovario-hysterectomized = because it is the general opinion, that the intact female ferret if not = mated followed by mating induced ovulation, will maintain a very high = level of estrogen production in many cases eventually leading to = aplastic anemia and death. Has anybody scientific information which can elucidate this in my = opinion rather strange phenomenon. Best wishes to all from Henrik B. Simonsen Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University Division of Ethology and Health B=FClowsvej 13 DK-1870 Frederiksberg c Copenhagen Denmark Phone +45 35 28 30 14 Fax +45 35 28 30 22 E-mail hbs@kvl.dk From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 30-MAR-1998 11:34:29.75 To: IN%"Henrik.B.Simonsen@ihh.kvl.dk" "'Henrik B Simonsen'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Ferrets: ovario-hysterectomi Tierarztl Prax 1987;15(3):333-335 =20 [Aplastic anemia in ferrets]. [Article in German] Baumgartner W, Juchem R Institut fur Veterinar-Pathologie der Justus-Liebig-Universitat, = Giessen. The present report describes both estrus associated and estrogen induced aplastic anemia in 7 female ferrets. The animals were presented with = anemia, anorexia, apathy, melena and subcutaneous hemorrhages. Histologically, = the animals showed panmyelophthisis and cystic endometrial hyperplasia. PMID: 3424362, UI: 88100589 ---------- A Public Medline search with the terms 'ferret and estrogen and anemia' = yields=20 7 titles including the one above. -----Original Message----- From: Henrik B Simonsen [SMTP:Henrik.B.Simonsen@ihh.kvl.dk] Sent: 30 March 1998 13:49 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Ferrets: ovario-hysterectomi Dear All. The Ferret (Mustela furo) has become increasingly popular in Denmark as = a pet animal. The vast majority of the females ar ovario-hysterectomized = because it is the general opinion, that the intact female ferret if not = mated followed by mating induced ovulation, will maintain a very high = level of estrogen production in many cases eventually leading to = aplastic anemia and death. Has anybody scientific information which can elucidate this in my = opinion rather strange phenomenon. Best wishes to all from Henrik B. Simonsen Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University Division of Ethology and Health B=FClowsvej 13 DK-1870 Frederiksberg c Copenhagen Denmark Phone +45 35 28 30 14 Fax +45 35 28 30 22 E-mail hbs@kvl.dk From: IN%"RebecaAuge@aol.com" "RebecaAuge" 30-MAR-1998 12:27:13.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Human ethology info needed Does anyone have recommendations for a human ethology text book? If you know of any formal reviews, I would appreciate those also. TIA Rebecca Rebecca Auge, Ph.D. Psychologist Oakland, CA From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 30-MAR-1998 13:01:20.41 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "'James F. Brody'", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Kidney stones I am seeing a "run" of cystitis and urolithiasis cases in (dare I mention them) cats. It started last month. I could not say this happens every year. In humans is there not a co-relation between sunlight exposure, vitamin D and calcium mobilisation from bone reservoirs?. (I know that latent plumbism is evoked by the simultaneous mobilisation of lead from bones specially in fair skinned individuals. Hippocrates Epidemics I and III mentions susceptibility to kausos and paralytikos in pale complexioned folk. ) Such a mechanism might increase urolith growth. Mind you during the great cholera epidemic of 1834 in London it was reliably reported that there was a blue haze over Hyde Park in the mornings that summer and a great plague of little green frogs :-) Robin -----Original Message----- From: James F. Brody [SMTP:JBrody@compuserve.com] Sent: 30 March 1998 14:42 To: Paleopsych; HBES List Serve; Applied Ethology Subject: Kidney stones One of my clients remarked that hospitals "see" a run of kidney stones in March and late summer. Peculiar if true. Explanations??? Links between electrolytes changes and bipolar incidents??? Thank you, Jim Brody From: IN%"steven@texas.net" "Steven Nicely" 30-MAR-1998 14:28:15.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "animal behavior" CC: Subj: text books Any one suggest book dealing with behavior in dogs. Steve Nicely From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 30-MAR-1998 15:39:25.11 To: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "'James F. Brody'", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Kidney stones I am seeing a "run" of cystitis and urolithiasis cases in (dare I mention them) cats. It started last month. I could not say this happens every year. In humans is there not a co-relation between sunlight exposure, vitamin D and calcium mobilisation from bone reservoirs?. (I know that latent plumbism is evoked by the simultaneous mobilisation of lead from bones specially in fair skinned individuals. Hippocrates Epidemics I and III mentions susceptibility to kausos and paralytikos in pale complexioned folk. ) Such a mechanism might increase urolith growth. Mind you during the great cholera epidemic of 1834 in London it was reliably reported that there was a blue haze over Hyde Park in the mornings that summer and a great plague of little green frogs :-) Robin -----Original Message----- From: James F. Brody [SMTP:JBrody@compuserve.com] Sent: 30 March 1998 14:42 To: Paleopsych; HBES List Serve; Applied Ethology Subject: Kidney stones One of my clients remarked that hospitals "see" a run of kidney stones in March and late summer. Peculiar if true. Explanations??? Links between electrolytes changes and bipolar incidents??? Thank you, Jim Brody From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 30-MAR-1998 17:38:49.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Urolithiasis and Behaviour This is of course an ethology issue. Part of the subject is a concern with the effects of external influences on the animal. The behaviour of one species may impinge upon another. The behavioural response of the impacted or 'stressed' species is an Ethological issue. Under stress the resultant strain may be manifested as depression of resistance to disease. Psychoneuroimmunity is the title of the subtopic. Depression of immunity is likely to be most dramatically observed in those tissues which are required to bear the heaviest affront in daily life. Rapidly replicating mucosal membrane surfaces such as oral, lung, bowel and urinary bladder linings are the first to succumb to the lowering of vitality. Hence the correlation between mouth ulcers, bladder infections, pneumonias, and bowel disorders and stressful environments in a number of species. It may be that the 'winter blahs' increases susceptibility to bladder pathogens and predisposes to calculus nidation. The displacement of the red squirrel by its grey competitor is of interest to an ethologist. The commencement of Julius Caesar's Gallic War diaries is the displacement of the Helvetii from what is now Switzerland by the Germani. When they poured into Gaul they resembled the red squirrel. This is historical ethology. For that matter the Mexican border fence is a ethological issue ! Offa's Dyke and the Great Wall of China certainly were. Ethology need not be a narrow subject. Robin From: IN%"righetti@ozemail.com.au" "righetti" 30-MAR-1998 17:43:25.63 To: IN%"steven@texas.net" "Steven Nicely", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "animal behavior" CC: Subj: RE: text books Steven Nicely >Any one suggest book dealing with behavior in dogs. If you are after a scientific text, you might like to read: "The Domestic Dog" edited by James Serpell. Cambridge University Press. For more general information, try "Do Dogs Need Shrinks?" by Peter Neville or "Think Dog" by John Fisher. Regards, Joanne Righetti Animal Behaviour Consultant, Sydney From: IN%"claire.weeks@bristol.ac.uk" "Claire Weeks" 31-MAR-1998 07:57:49.73 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Poultry feeding behaviour Does anybody know of any references describing the feeding behaviour of poultry (Gallus gallus) to back up a statement that chickens normally feed from the standing posture. Thanks in anticipation! Claire Weeks ---------------------- Dr C A Weeks, DFAS, University of Bristol, Langford, Bristol, BS40 5DU (UK) Tel: (44) 0117 928 9316 Fax: (44) 0117 928 9324 claire.weeks@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 31-MAR-1998 08:35:36.41 To: IN%"claire.weeks@bristol.ac.uk" "Claire Weeks" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Poultry feeding behaviour Dear Claire > Does anybody know of any references describing the feeding behaviour of > poultry (Gallus gallus) to back up a statement that chickens normally > feed from the standing posture. The few sources I've checked don't say this, and in fact I'd be surprised if anyone explicitly states anything so obvious. I would have thought you could state it without a reference. However, I grant that things which seem obvious are not always so. Furthermore, perhaps you are describing them doing something else and wanting to say that it's unusual. I have seen both red deer and cattle grazing while lying (they always got up shortly afterwards) and I could imagine wanting to put this into context with a published description of normal feeding behaviour. You could perhaps give a general reference to our book Poultry Production Systems: Behaviour, Management and Welfare (Appleby MC, Hughes BO and Elson HA 1992, CAB International, Oxfordshire). Even a casual reading of the chapter on Feeding supports your point: for example, the first two sentences read as follows, and it would be difficult to imagine them doing this sitting down. 'Under natural conditions the jungle fowl's diet is a very mixed one - seeds, fruits, herbage and invertebrates. It browses on herbage and forages by scratching at the ground, exposing small food items which are pecked up.' Mike From: IN%"arowan@erols.com" "Andrew Rowan" 31-MAR-1998 08:49:00.82 To: IN%"uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar" "Dr. Leopoldo Estol" CC: IN%"ndale@uga.cc.uga.edu" "UGA Nick Dale", IN%"bhollett@calc.vet.uga.edu" "UGA CE Bruce Hollett", IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "SVME Ione Smith", IN%"research_animals@rspca.org.uk" "RSPCA Penny Hawkins", IN%"rclarke@ava.com.au" "Roger Clarke Au Subj: RE: Columba Livia control >Dear fellows >I want to know legislative and practical measures for urban and rural pigeon >control of Columba Livia. >A colleague is working in a legislative project of revision of the law about >fauna control and ask me for help. >Thank you in advance. > >Polo > One of the more interesting control programs that I have seen was undertaken in the city of Bern, Switzerland. The city had tried the usual methods of control (e.g. poisoning) and had passed ordinances banning pigeon feeding, but all to no or little effect. They then tried a new approach. Instead of banning pigeon feeders, they allowed feeding at only two or three parks/plazas in the city and, at the same time, built pigeon cotes for the birds to attract them to these places. The cotes were designed so that city workers could gain access to the nesting areas which allowed them to addle the eggs. Within three years, they had reduced the pigeon population by 50% and planned to drop it 25% of the original level and then maintain it. I have always thought this was a rather ingenious way of dealing with the problem and believe that it could be applied to other species. Andrew Andrew N. Rowan Senior Vice President Research, Education and International Issues Humane Society of the U.S. 2100 L St NW Washington, DC 20037 (301) 548 7770 (301) 548 7726(fax) arowan@erols.com From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" "G. F. Barbato" 31-MAR-1998 08:52:42.20 To: IN%"Claire.Weeks@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Poultry feeding behaviour Claire, this may not be *exactly* what you're looking for .... but; in our origingal work using strain gauge transducers attached to feeding pans to monitor feeding behavior of chickens in cages (Barbato et al., 1980 Physiol. Behav. 25:885-891) the birds were unable to feed (i.e., reach the feeders) from a sitting or prone position, and yet ate and grew similarly to other animals of the same strains which were floor reared and under ad libitum feeding conditions having said that, i have observed a few chickens derived from the pedigreed grandparents of contemporary broiler-type chickens, which had leg problems, sitting near the feeder and eating; though i can't recall any other circumstances in which the birds were in any other position during feeding. good luck, gfb > -----Original Message----- > From: Claire.Weeks@bristol.ac.uk [mailto:Claire.Weeks@bristol.ac.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 8:54 AM > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Poultry feeding behaviour > > Does anybody know of any references describing the feeding behaviour of > poultry (Gallus gallus) to back up a statement that chickens normally > feed from the standing posture. > > Thanks in anticipation! > > Claire Weeks > > ---------------------- > Dr C A Weeks, DFAS, University of Bristol, Langford, Bristol, > BS40 5DU (UK) > Tel: (44) 0117 928 9316 Fax: (44) 0117 928 9324 > claire.weeks@bris.ac.uk