From: IN%"jcox@netcomuk.co.uk" "jcox" 15-MAR-1999 12:58:04.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Hen Group Sizes Could anyone assist with this enquiry, please? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ which is the best hen group size? ------------------------------ kag is a 27 years old farm animal protection organization cooperating with free range farmers as licencees of our free range trade mark. our principles of free range farming are known as the most severe ones. actually, we are looking for practical and scientifical evidence for maximum laying hen group size. perhaps you can give us a hint? until lately, we have been working with maximum group size of 250 hens (500 hens under special circumstances, i. e. voliere stable systems which allow use of third dimension), but our experiences in practice were rather problematical. we are convinced that groups of such size do not respond to the animals need. now we've decided to reduce our own principles to a maximum group size of 100 hens - it is just a first arbitrary step, a moratorium in order to avoid further licence contracts with farmers who want to work with bigger groups. in a second step, we want to fix maximum group size according to practical and scientifical evidence. two or three older studies tell us that group size should not exceed 25, 50 or 80 hens. more recent studies (probably written under slight economical pressure) say that group size can be up to some thousands, if teh hens have possiblities to build undergroups. hopefully looking for your answers, with kind regards heinzpeter studer --------------------------------- KAG Konsument/innen-Arbeitsgruppe fuer tier- und umweltfreundliche Nutztierhaltung Engelgasse 12a, CH-9001 St.Gallen Tel. 071/222 18 18; Fax 223 13 37 E-Mail kagfreiland@paus.ch --------------------------------- From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 15-MAR-1999 14:08:29.85 To: IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve" CC: Subj: Paul MacLean Festschrift Colleague, Russ Gardner is having some problems with his outgoing email and asked me= to distribute this. Please join us! Jim Brody =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Paul D. MacLean Festschrift Boston Back Bay Hilton, July 16 & 17, 1999 Sponsored by the ASCAP Society* This special meeting will honor Dr. MacLean because his work has been an important conceptual platform upon which the Society's efforts have been based. Russell Gardner, Jr., M.D., FAPA, FACP, former Harry K. Davis Professor at the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston and Gera= ld A. Cory, Ph.D., Director of the Center for Behavior Ecology in San Jose, = CA are the organizers. Objectives: Meeting attendees will, as a result of this symposium, be abl= e to: - Outline the relevance of MacLean's research and data for psychiatry, child psychiatry, human politics, ethology, and the functions of attentio= n and emotions - Assess MacLean's theory with respect to its philosophical underpinning= s, issues of reification, and unfolding information from molecular biology a= nd the genome project. - Note the arguments of certain critical reviews of MacLean along with data showing that they are suspect, and - Furnish information on how this perspective augments our understanding= of affective disorders, violence, and hyperactivity syndromes. Tentative Speakers are: CUM Smith, Gerald A Cory, Vassilis Koliatsos, Seymour Itzkoff, Ernest Barratt, Daniel Levine, Allan Mirsky, Neil Greenberg, Glenn Weisfeld, Jam= es C. Harris, Annaliese Pontius, Daniel Matthews, John S. Price, Hagop Akiskol, Leon Sloman, Daniel R. Wilson, James Brody, Alan Swann, Roger Masters, Kent Bailey, Russell Gardner Jr., and Karl Pribram. The winner of the Aaron T. Beck Award will also make a presentation. (Th= is award includes $1000 is given jointly by the ASCAP Society and the Foundation for Cognitive Therapy and Research for the best essay bearing = on the aims of the Society.) *ASCAP means Across-Species Comparisons and Psychopathology (not the Association for Composers and Performers), although subscribers are hardl= y against music, but rather are very interested in it and the many other communications of both humans and non-human animals. For evolutionary psychiatrists, psychologists and others interested in our evolved natures= and establishing a physiological basis for our understanding of the human= mind, its origins, and its quirks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- --------------------------------- REGISTRATION: $75 is enclosed as ____ Check, ______ Money Order, ___ Credit Card Charge= Checks or money orders are payable to The University of Texas Medical Branch If you prefer to use a credit card, please complete the following: I authorize The University of Texas Medical Branch to charge to my (mark one) ___MasterCard, ___ Visa, ___ Discover, ___ American Express The following amount: ____________Card number:______________________ Card expiration date: _____________ Signature: ________________________ Name: _______________________ Address:___________________________ (print, please!) = = Telephone ( )_____________ = ___________________________ email ________________________ HOTEL RESERVATIONS: = Please make your own reservations as needed at the Boston Back Bay Hilton= , 40 Dalton Street, Boston, 02115, 800-874-0663, or 617-236-1100. Special rates have been arranged for "The ASCAP Group" -- $185/night for single o= r double plux tax. Please make your reservations for the nights of July 15= & 16 (for the meetings Friday, July 16 & Saturday, July 17) as quickly as possible, latest June 15. After this date, the group rate will be provide= d only on a room-available basis. Make sure that you identify your group affiliation as ASCAP when you make your reservation. Group rates may hol= d for July 17 should you desire to stay. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- --- For more information or for a sample copy of the Society Newsletter, without obligation, contact: = Russell Gardner, Jr., M.D. Secretary Treasurer The ASCAP Society, = 921 Blume Drive Galveston, Texas 77554 rgj999@yahoo.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- -- The Festschrift occurs the weekend before the 20th Cape Cod Institute, = Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values July 19-23, 1999 John Price, M.D., Russell Gardner, M.D., John Fentress, Ph.D., James Brod= y, Ph.D. http://www.cape.org/1999 jbrody@compuserve.com and http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary Come to the Festschrift and then out to the Cape! From: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" 15-MAR-1999 22:29:07.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Hormones and Pregnancy Mike wrote: > This is a question more of curiosity than anything else. I read >some time last year in the American Association of Zoo Keepers(AAZK) >publication of occasional odd, usually aggressive behaviors female >keepers who were pregnant observed in the animals they cared for. The >article suggested their changing hormonal state could be a factor." I was pregnant and cared for, bathed, fed and hung out with our two African Elephants all during my last pregnancy (my son is now 5).. They were very curious about my stomach, partly because of its changing size but also before that. My impression is that the female elephant, Laura, whom I am very close to new that I was pregnant... I think with elephants she could heara the womb sounds. I belive this because elephants communicate through low frequency sounds and that is what womb sounds would be... Other than their curiousity and checking on me and the baby the rest of their behavior was quite normal... But then elephants are matriarchal, social animals wiht great mothering instincts and high intelligence... After my son was born Laura seemed to already be familiar with him and no doubt she was...He was not strange or new to her when we brought him home. She touched his forehead with her trunk, patted him for a bit and then sniffed all around him and then went about her business as if to say oh its you! She is very protective of him...He also spent the first 2 months of of his life growling...sounded just like the low rumbling the elephants make.. Just sharing some observations... Also have horses, dogs,parrots and others who reacted quite well during my pregnancy. this is not to say that others might not react badly or jealously... Our dogs are Australian Shepherds, very instinctive herding watchful dogs, and the oldest female who is quite attached to me and protective was also protective of my son. Not letting anyone strange near him or his crib... Regards, Sheree Walters <") ,-''/^ ^`\ ~,~~''``^-.. (.) , ) \ `\ (`) . o ) ) )\ (`\/ (' / .) \ `-//..^ \__/ ( ) \ // \ ( ,) /\ / `/( /^~~--~~~^`( ) '| / | ( .) ( / ( .) /-.\ /-.| /-.| /-.| (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) Ivory Haven - Laura the Elephant's House on the Web: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248 Order Amazon.com books now through Laura's Bookstore! Ivory Haven gets a percentage $$$ of every order! http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248/books.htm Send free electronic greeting cards - over 500 to choose from: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248/greetings.html ICQ Pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2602279 From: IN%"Helen.STUART@students.dmu.ac.uk" 16-MAR-1999 04:22:38.34 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dear all, I am a third year degree student at De Montfort University, Lincoln, studying Animal Science ( Behavioural Studies ). As part of one of my assignments I am required to find information relating to fecal/ scent rolling in canids ( wild or domestic ). Papers already in my possession are : Reiger, I ( 1979 ) Scent rubbing in Carnivores. Carnivore. 2 (1/2): 17 - 25. Ryon, J, Fentress, J.C, Harrington, F.H, Bragdon, S. ( 1986) Scent rubbing in wolves ( Canis lupus ): the effect of novelty. Can. J. Zool; 64 : 573 - 577. If anyone has any suggestions on suitable references, I would be extremely grateful to receive them. yours sincerely, Helen Stuart. From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 16-MAR-1999 21:43:02.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Can anyone offer advice? From: IN%"lclemos@ruralrj.com.br" "Luiz Claudio" 13-MAR-1999 19:55:03.05 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: some information This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE6DA4.BED8DCA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,=20 my name is Luciana and I'm from Brazil. Sorry about my english = because I don't study this language for a long time, I hope you can = understand me. I should like to know some informations about extension = courses that I can done in North America. I'm biologist but I'm not = working in this subject now. My interesting is in animals behaviour, not = only domestics animals but ethology in general. I should like study = something that gives me instruction to work in a Zoo, for example. If = you can help me it will be wonderful!=20 Thanks, = Luciana PS.: Please contact me in this e-mail: luciana_luz@hotmail.com ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE6DA4.BED8DCA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
    my name is Luciana = and I'm from=20 Brazil. Sorry about my english because I don't study this language for a = long=20 time, I hope you can understand me. I should like to know some = informations=20 about extension courses that I can done in North America. I'm biologist = but I'm=20 not working in this subject now. My interesting is in animals behaviour, = not=20 only domestics animals but ethology in general. I should like study = something=20 that gives me instruction to work in a Zoo, for example. If you can help = me it=20 will be wonderful!
       =20             =    =20             =    =20             = Thanks,
       =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             = Luciana
PS.: Please contact me in this e-mail: = luciana_luz@hotmail.com
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE6DA4.BED8DCA0-- From: IN%"SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk" "Nigel Goodwin" 17-MAR-1999 06:29:51.80 To: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Hormones and Pregnancy > From: Sheree Walters > My impression is that the female elephant, Laura, whom I am very close to > new that I was pregnant... I'm sure some hardcore ethologists will be screaming "Anthropomorphism! Burn the heretic!".... But I'm interested in your observations, and maybe I could put an alternative slant on them. If your elephants were accustomed to you handling them and moving freely among them before you were pregnant, could they have noticed a change in *your* behaviour as your pregnancy advanced? Pregnant women generally take extra care of themselves, especially if carrying out physical, manual tasks (like feeding elephants!). They will also behave in such a way that makes it obvious there is something precious and delicate inside them - putting their hands on the abdomen and looking down at it every so often. Perhaps it was something like this that focussed the elephants' attention on your condition? Of course the trouble with carrying out observations that involve your own participation is that it's not a strictly controlled experiment. However you are contributing to an increasing batch of anecdotal evidence about the changed behaviour of animals around pregnant women. This question came up a while ago, centering around dogs, and of course you also mentioned the protective behaviour of your dogs around your son. This is an interesting topic, but I am a little sceptical about hormonal explanations. I think it's more likely to be based on altered patterns of human behaviour. Any other ideas? Nigel From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 17-MAR-1999 08:51:49.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cattle social memory Hello out there! Does anybody have any idea how many herdmates cattle are capable of recognising? Has anyone ever tried to work this out? If you know anything or could steer (no pun intended) me toward a reference, I'd be very grateful. Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 17-MAR-1999 09:15:03.00 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cattle social memory >>> Jon Watts 03/17 9:50 am >>> Hello out there!Does anybody have any idea how many herdmates cattle are capable of recognising? Has anyone ever tried to work this out?>>> I know cattle can recognize more than two people, so the answer is "more than two". To be more exact, I would suggest "a vast number". How many people can people recognize? If you think of all the people you have met, and could recognize, even if you can't remember their names, I would guess that we are capable of recognizing many thousands, if not tens of thousands of people. In group living animals social recognition is likely to be a highly evolved and specialized skill. Bovines are capable of living in some pretty big groups, so an even more precise answer is "almost as many as the number of dollars you would have to ask for, and be refused, to do the experiment to find out" In any case, it is an imprecise question. What is meant by "to recognize someone"? To know their name? To have a relationship of some sort with them? To know that you have seen them before somewhere? Jeff Rushen ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 17-MAR-1999 10:29:15.08 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Hormones and Pregnancy Nigel Goodwin wrote: > This is an interesting topic, but I am a > little sceptical about hormonal explanations. I think it's more > likely to be based on altered patterns of human behaviour. Any other > ideas? I don't know if there are any cetacean experts on list who might be able to explain this better....But during an exciting experience swimming with dolphins, I learned that the dolphins can utilize their incredible sonar skills to detect the extra heartbeat and movement of an unborn fetus within a woman's body (not mine ;-) ). If my rusty brain cells are working today - I think I remember the animals' response was to be passive around a pregant woman - carefully avoiding the usual high-energy play that they often enjoyed with other human swimmers. Donna Reynolds From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 17-MAR-1999 10:30:38.52 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cattle social memory On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Jeff Rushen wrote: > > I know cattle can recognize more than two people, so the > answer is "more than two". To be more exact, I would suggest > "a vast number". How many people can people recognize? > If you think of all the people you have met, and could recognize, > even if you can't remember their names, I would guess that we > are capable of recognizing many thousands, if not tens of > thousands of people. In group living animals social recognition > is likely to be a highly evolved and specialized skill. Bovines are > capable of living in some pretty big groups, so an even more > precise answer is "almost as many as the number of dollars > you would have to ask for, and be refused, to do the experiment > to find out" > > In any case, it is an imprecise question. What is meant by > "to recognize someone"? To know their name? To have > a relationship of some sort with them? To know that you > have seen them before somewhere? > > Jeff Rushen The question may be imprecise, but the implications are of interest. Often in our domestic livestock industries we house animals together in various size groups and pens. Are there limits to the number of animals that can be kept together before social problems errupt due to the animal's failure to recognize each other as part of the same group? In Seyforth and Cheney's book, "How Monkeys see the World", they conduct various vocal playback experiments to determine if a particular group of vervets recognize the calls of the neighboring group. Not only can they recognize the calls of the neighboring troop, but they seem to be able to recognize if the calls are being played from a territory that is not owned by the troop whose recordings they are hearing. So it appears that while they may 'recognize' individuals outside their own social group they would not consider every individual they recognize as a troop member. In other words the number they 'recognize' exceeds the normal group size. Are we exceeding normal group size in our various livestock housing arrangements? If so do our animals pay any price for exceeding the 'normal' group size? Somewhere in those questions emerges the role of 'recognizing individuals' as group members or at least as nonthreatening acquaintances. It appears that many wild species have a particular group size or family unit which spend a large portion of their time together. During certain seasons or under certain conditions larger aggregations of the species come together. Can or should our cattle, swine and poultry spend the majority of their lives in large aggregations or would they function better in smaller groups? What evidence do we have that groups can become too large? If the evidence exist is it related to exceeding a 'recognition limit'? I think these are worthwhile questions and a good researcher and salesman should be able to rustle up some money to investigate these questions. There are numerous papers published with various species looking at the effects of various group sizes. However, like Jon Watts is wondering, I am not certain we have really asked or answered the questions conclusively. So Jeff, while we recognize you and your comments you will have to come and spend more time with us before we pencil in your birthday on our calendar! (The true sign you made it into our group!) Joe ===================== Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 17-MAR-1999 10:38:54.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re:Protective behaviors In a message dated 3/17/99 6:42:09 AM Central Standard Time, SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk writes: << This question came up a while ago, centering around dogs, and of course you also mentioned the protective behaviour of your dogs around your son. This is an interesting topic, but I am a little sceptical about hormonal explanations. >> Making observations about domestic canines "protective" behaviors always raises so many questions for me. First, how do we "know" they are being protective of us? Maybe they are protecting themselves. Second, often we give subtle messages to our pets about what behaviors we find acceptable, i.e., if the breed of dog is one that has been genetically bred to "protect" and "guard" we reinforce those behaviors both subtlety and perhaps more overtly in situations where we want it to occur, in other words with our children, ourselves in certain situations etc. So, is the dog "choosing" to be protective, or is the dog responding to our desires? Does anyone wish to comment on these questions? (I know it is a "dog" question, but feel free to comment on other species!) Debra Horwitz, DVM, Dipl. American College of Veterinary Behaviorists Veterinary Behavior Consultations St. Louis, Missouri 314-739-1510 phone 314-291-2116 fax From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 17-MAR-1999 10:54:40.25 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cattle social memory In response to my question about how many herdmates cattle can recognise On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Jeff Rushen wrote: > .... it is an imprecise question. What is meant by > "to recognize someone"? To know their name? To have > a relationship of some sort with them? To know that you > have seen them before somewhere? Gadzooks!! It is an imprecise question! I'm not sure which of the more specific questions you mention would give me an answer that really helps. Here's the situation: Consider steers in a feedlot. If you put them in small pens with say 30 animals per pen, as in our research feedlot, you might suppose that any animal will eventually interact with all other animals. Probably it will be familiar with the appearance, odour etc. of all the other animals and be able to discriminate between them and "unfamiliar" animals based on these cues. It may well (though I don't know this) be able to associate each animal with other information based on those interactions, such as relative dominance, for example. At this pen size they can easily demonstrate discrimination between a stranger or one of their own being introduced to the pen. Anyhow, suppose you put them instead into pens of 100 animals, or 200, or 500 or maybe even more. Do you reach a pen population at which animals within the pen do not all know each other in this way? Maybe there are so many animals that they don't all ever get to interact. Maybe there is clique formation such that each animal spends most of it's time in association with a subgroup. Maybe they do all interact, but they just don't have the capacity to form and store useful representations of the relevant properties of other individuals that they could use to recognise them or know anything about them on a subsequent encounter. Perhaps their day-to-day activities, after a settling down period, don't bring them often into contact with animals which are unknown. Perhaps they attempt to avoid such encounters. But when there is a source of excitement or agitation, a storm, all being removed from the pen and turned back in, or something of the sort perhaps some individuals are forced into contact with strangers and thus to interact and probably fight with them while their familiar cohort is somewhere else. I was just wondering if something like limits on social memory might be involved in buller steer syndrome which usually only occurs in large pens and is often associated with events like storms or disturbances like re-implanting. I'm not suggesting that any one factor such as this provides a whole explanation. But the way I see it, if they can easily recognise 500 animals then I'm completely wrong, but if they begin to struggle with this kind of representation at upwards of 150 to 200 individuals (pen sizes where we see BSS occurring) then it might be a factor. I realize this doesn't completely clarify the question. But maybe it suggests what kinds of answer might have some relevance. Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 17-MAR-1999 11:15:12.29 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" CC: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cattle social memory >>> 03/17 11:26 am >>>Often in our domestic livestock industries we house animals together in various size groups and pens. Are there limits to the number of animals that can be kept together before social problems errupt due to the animal's failure to recognize each other as part of the same group? >>> I have heard this story before (i.e that in large groups animals will not recognize each other and so there will be more aggression) but I no longer believe it is true. First, the same story has been claimed for people i.e. high levels of aggression in cities. I have lived in a 3.5 million person city and a 60 person village, and I can tell you the former was much less stressful than the latter! People are perfectly capable of being very happy in megacities. The problems with cities do not arise just because there are a lot of people around. The assumption is that strangers (whether people or animals) will inevitably fight. But is this true? When everyone else is a friend, and you are a stranger, you may well have problems. but if everyone is a stranger, and you have a few friends, maybe things will be ok. In my opinion, the worst problems of aggression in animal groups occur when one animal is continually harrassed by one or two others. In a small group, this animal has little chance of escape, but in a group of several thousand the chances of avoiding a bully are much better. Meat poultry live in flocks of several tens or hundreds of thousands, but I am not aware that aggression levels per bird are particularly high. I think that most domestic animals are capable of living in groups that are much, much larger than what we would consider as "natural" group sizes, as long as the conditions are right. A more appropriate question than "are groups too big?" is the question "what are the conditions necessary to keep animals in large groups?". I think the real problems with large groups are increased risk of disease transmission and reduced possibilities for individual care and attention from the people looking after the animals, not increased aggression. jeff rushen ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 17-MAR-1999 11:28:40.66 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re:Protective behaviors Hi Deb! Perhaps it is dependent on the relationship (which supports your expectation hypothesis). The behaviour, however, may not occur solely because it is expected but because it is expected of the relationship. DebMcW > Date sent: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:25:58 -0500 (EST) > From: DebHdvm@aol.com > Subject: Re:Protective behaviors > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > In a message dated 3/17/99 6:42:09 AM Central Standard Time, > SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk writes: > > << This question came up a while ago, centering around > dogs, and of course you also mentioned the protective behaviour of > your dogs around your son. This is an interesting topic, but I am a > little sceptical about hormonal explanations. >> > > Making observations about domestic canines "protective" behaviors always > raises so many questions for me. First, how do we "know" they are being > protective of us? Maybe they are protecting themselves. Second, often we > give subtle messages to our pets about what behaviors we find acceptable, > i.e., if the breed of dog is one that has been genetically bred to "protect" > and "guard" we reinforce those behaviors both subtlety and perhaps more > overtly in situations where we want it to occur, in other words with our > children, ourselves in certain situations etc. So, is the dog "choosing" to > be protective, or is the dog responding to our desires? Does anyone wish to > comment on these questions? (I know it is a "dog" question, but feel free to > comment on other species!) > > Debra Horwitz, DVM, Dipl. American College of Veterinary Behaviorists > Veterinary Behavior Consultations > St. Louis, Missouri > 314-739-1510 phone > 314-291-2116 fax > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 17-MAR-1999 11:29:56.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cattle social memory Hi folks! Re: pen and group sizes. Realistically, we house animals (whatever the species) on what is convenient for us. (Please note that I am not supporting this, just bringing it into the discussion). Often, what we see that "works" is because it suits us and not the animal. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 17-MAR-1999 11:40:33.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cattle social memory Hi Jeff! > > The assumption is that strangers (whether people or animals) > will inevitably fight. But is this true? When everyone else is > a friend, and you are a stranger, you may well have problems. > but if everyone is a stranger, and you have a few friends, maybe > things will be ok. My experience, with many species, is: 1) Are there sufficient resources? Two animals will fight if there is not enough of what is important to them. 2) Depends on definition of "fight". Some species have overt aggression and others are much more subtle. Jeff: your point re: the difficulty of caring for large groups is important. It is difficult to scan and note health problems, etc. when there are hundreds to thousands of animals. The only way that system works is when you expect some to perish and it does not matter to you (financially or otherwise). DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 17-MAR-1999 14:40:22.58 To: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Re:Protective behaviors Hi Debra, One way to address this question might be to look at the dog ethologically. I have been re-reading "The Wolf" by L. David Mech and while it is a dated reference, (1970), it is full of wonderful information. He describes many instances of wolves defending both territories and individuals within their pack. In "Coyotes, Biology Behavior and Management, edited by Mark Bekoff, 1978, there are examples of active defense of territories, especially when there are pups present in the den (here it was frequently the females who lead the attack on intruders). And if you go back to Scott and Fuller's studies at the Jackson Laboratories in the 1950s with dogs, they showed group defense behavior predictably showing up as early as (I think, I don't have the book handy) 6 weeks of age and with a lot of similarity across litters. I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that guarding, protective, defensive (whatever you want to term it) behavior is a consistent factor in canine pack behavior and it is probably of biological origin (and perhaps modified by learning). It makes evolutionary sense that animals who live in groups would have evolved a set of strategies to recognize (which goes back to Jon's question about recognition of individuals in cattle) and protect the group. And it makes sense to me that some of these species would have evolved the ability to alter their protective behavior to recognize and protect the more vulnerable members of their group preferentially. Janice Willard D.V.M., M.S. At 11:25 AM 3/17/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Making observations about domestic canines "protective" behaviors always >raises so many questions for me. First, how do we "know" they are being >protective of us? Maybe they are protecting themselves. Second, often we >give subtle messages to our pets about what behaviors we find acceptable, >i.e., if the breed of dog is one that has been genetically bred to "protect" >and "guard" we reinforce those behaviors both subtlety and perhaps more >overtly in situations where we want it to occur, in other words with our >children, ourselves in certain situations etc. So, is the dog "choosing" to >be protective, or is the dog responding to our desires? Does anyone wish to >comment on these questions? (I know it is a "dog" question, but feel free to >comment on other species!) > >Debra Horwitz, DVM, Dipl. American College of Veterinary Behaviorists >Veterinary Behavior Consultations >St. Louis, Missouri >314-739-1510 phone >314-291-2116 fax From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 17-MAR-1999 14:47:14.35 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cattle social memory On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Jeff Rushen wrote: > > I have heard this story before (i.e that in large groups animals will > not recognize each other and so there will be more aggression) > but I no longer believe it is true. I agree with you that generally we do not see increases in aggression with larger group sizes in other livestock species. Both poultry and swine seem to function with perhaps less aggression (certainly not more aggression) in larger groups. However, the buller steer syndrome, which may or may not be related to aggression, seems to emerge in group sizes over 200 animals. In group sizes less than 100 it is rarely, if ever seen. So it appears that large group sizes, at least in steers, can have a negative effect. What you believe to be true about large group sizes in poultry and swine does not seem to hold true for growing steers in feedlot conditions. > > First, the same story has been claimed for people i.e. high levels > of aggression in cities. I have lived in a 3.5 million person city > and a 60 person village, and I can tell you the former was much > less stressful than the latter! People are perfectly capable of being very > happy in megacities. The problems with cities do not > arise just because there are a lot of people around. > I always thought that the incidence of violent crime and 'random acts of violence' (murder, rape, shooting, armed robbery, etc.) was higher per capita within larger cities? You seem to be saying this is not true! Or if true, not related to larger numbers, but perhaps other circumstances that exist in larger cities. However, that is like saying bullets do not kill you, it is the speed of the bullet that is the problem. Perhaps the analogy is off target :), however, I would wager you are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime in a larger city than a village of 60 people. If this is true, for whatever the reasons, it still means (directly or indirectly) that larger cities have higher incidences of violent crime. I will try to get back on tract here! I do not know if larger numbers of steers are more aggressive. I do not know if aggression causes buller steers. I DO KNOW that group sizes over 200 report a greater incidence of bullers than group sizes less than 100. This discussion did not begin by asking if larger groups are more aggressive, though the conversation has swung that way. The original question had to do with optimum group sizes and if a price was paid if that optimum group was exceeded and if recognition among individuals could be part of the development of a problem (like buller steers). So aggression aside (and economics and weight gain aside) - are their optimum group sizes that relate to the ecology of the animal and is there a limit to how many other individuals an animal can recognize as its herdmate? > In my opinion, > the worst problems of aggression in animal groups occur when > one animal is continually harrassed by one or two others. In a > small group, this animal has little chance of escape, but in a group > of several thousand the chances of avoiding a bully are much > better. Meat poultry live in flocks of several tens or hundreds > of thousands, but I am not aware that aggression levels per > bird are particularly high. Again this logic does not seem to hold true for large groups of steers. Steers in small groups also get bullied and ridden, but in large groups this activity attracts more and more attention until the recipient suffers. In a small group the attention is tolerable, but in a large group it becomes dangerous. > > I think that most domestic animals are capable of living in groups > that are much, much larger than what we would consider as > "natural" group sizes, as long as the conditions are right. A > more appropriate question than "are groups too big?" is the > question "what are the conditions necessary to keep animals > in large groups?". > I have some experience working with a local feedlot operator. The owner is very intuitive and knowledgeable about animal needs, behaviour, handling, etc. He decided to create large "pasture-like" lots for his steers so there was ample room and enough space so that the lot would not develop into a feedlot environment. He tried fields of 6-10 acres and put upwards to 500 and 600 steers into these pastures (more space per animal then is seen in a traditional feedlot setting). When the steers sold in early spring he planted the fields into cereal grains. It was all very environmentally friendly and he assumed animal friendly too. However, the incidence of bullers within his large paddocks was so high that he abandoned the idea and has gone back to his more traditional feedlot setting of 200 animals per pen. He still see bullers, but his overall incidence in his 5,000 head operation is lower. The same scenario is repeated in the literature and is being adopted in the construction of newer feedlots. Constructing and building larger and larger pens for more and more steers is not the norm because owners/operators know that group sizes over 200-250 increases the incidence of bullers. You may get away with larger group sizes in poultry and swine, but it just does not work with steers. Why? > I think the real problems with large groups are increased risk > of disease transmission and reduced possibilities for > individual care and attention from the people looking after the > animals, not increased aggression. > The feedlot industry is capable of dealing with large numbers of cattle. They can treat disease and provide individual care to whatever number of animals they own. If they have a 20,000 head feedlot they hire enough pen checkers to physically observe and check each animal in each pen and treat every animal identified as 'sick'. If they operate a 50,000 head feedlot they hire more pen checkers. It would be to their advantage to make pen sizes larger than 200-250 head, but the buller steer syndrome starts to negate the advantages of larger group sizes. Larger groups of steers create a higher incidence of bullers. Why? I think this is one situation, Jeff, where the upper number of animals that can be kept 'safely' together in one pen is being seen. What are some of the underlying mechanisms here and is recognition one of them; hence the original question. I do enjoy your comments Jeff, I wish you were here in person to discuss this phenomenon. Sincerely, Joe ====================== Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 17-MAR-1999 16:48:17.25 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" CC: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cattle social memory >>> 03/17 3:45 pm >>> However, the buller steer syndrome, whichmay or may not be related to aggression, seems to emerge in group sizes over 200 animals. In group sizes less than 100 it is rarely, if ever seen. So it appears that large group sizes, at least in steers, can havea negative effect.>>> Could this be a result of statistical sampling of a rare behaviour? If 1 steer out of 200 is a buller, then you are ten times as likely to see bulling in a group of 200 than in a group of 20 steers. If you observe 10 groups of 200 steers, you should see an average of one instance per group (i.e. bulling in every group). If you observe 10 groups of 20 steers then you will only observe bulling in one of those groups (i.e. an average of 0.10 instance per group). Bulling might be more commonly seen in large groups, but this does not mean that group size affects the incidence of bulling. Jeff Rushen ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** ! ! From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 17-MAR-1999 16:54:57.16 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cattle social memory On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:01:15 -0500 Jeff Rushen wrote: > I have heard this story before (i.e that in large groups animals will > not recognize each other and so there will be more aggression) > but I no longer believe it is true. > I have not been following this discussion closely, but the above statement "caught my eye." The implication from the statement seems to be that "behaviorists" at one time believed that larger group sizes resulted in more aggression. As one of the old timers, I was _not_ taught (in the 1960's or 1970's) that increasing group size resulted in more aggression. In fact I was taught just the opposite. The argument at that time was that 1) a true social organization could only result from individual recognition, 2) social stability was a product of a social organization and was associated with less overt competition for access to resources, 3) when group size was increased beyond the capacity of group members to "recognize and remember" others, then the group became an _aggregation_ (and no longer a social group), and 4) within aggregations the members had _lower_ levels of aggression because group members did not form "true" dominance-subordinate relationships in all possible dyads!!! (Continual mixing was argued to produce many of the same consequences as the formation of very large groups.) "The Hidden Dimension" (Hall, 1969) and "Personal Space" (Sommer, 1969) were two very popular books in the 1970's. Both of these books talked about humans in crowded populations coming into contact with large numbers of other humans on a daily basis - but forming social relationships with only a limited number of these people. In fact as I recall one of these books talked about lowered levels of social response (maybe even aggression) being a consequence of large population size - that avoiding eye contact while riding the subway in some large cities is a method used by humans to avoid social contact and decrease the possibility of aggression. I was taught that these principles likely apply to groups of animals as well! (The example in animal behavior that I have used for many years is based on 2 weeks of observing a group of 1000 3-year-old first-calf heifers at Douglas Lake Ranch in British Columbia in 1979. The heifers were overwintered in one large group but then sorted and resorted into groups of about 50 as they showed more overt signs of calving. Among these heifers - both in the large holding group and in the continually sorted smaller groups, there was almost no agonistic behavior exhibited. It was my impression that these heifers were behaving as if they were members of an aggregation and not members of social groups. With smaller group sizes and(or) no mixing, I believe the levels of aggression would have been more characteristic of that found in beef heifers. One other side point - these heifers had a much higher than expected level of "mis-mothering" which was in part due to nutritional stress but probably also partly due to social stress.) It is true that in the 1960's and 1970's Calhoun was arguing that with increasing levels of extreme crowding in groups of rats (spanning all ages and both sexes), eventually a "behavioral sink" will occur. One of the consequences of a behavioral sink that Calhoun found was "abnormal" types and increased levels of aggression - especially among groups of juvenile males. But Calhoun's experimental conditions were different in numerous ways from the housing systems employed for domestic animals. One of the most obvious differences is that large group sizes in confined agricultural animals is found almost exclusively in groups that are young and of single sex composition. In other words, I don't think that anyone at that time was contending that Calhoun's findings have direct relevance to housing of domestic animals. I believe that some of the earlier ideas about spacing and social behavior have become "muddled" in today's discussions. Maybe to help clarify the discussion, one question that was topical 20 years ago is worth asking again. Is lower group levels of aggression, in fact, beneficial from the individual animal's viewpoint? Or is it possible that decreasing levels of aggression with increasing group size is actually indicative of the absence of a social organization - and thus associated with increased "social stress?" Regards, Ray Stricklin ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 17-MAR-1999 17:49:44.41 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cattle social memory, etc. Ray Stricklin wrote: >Is lower group levels of aggression, in >fact, beneficial from the individual animal's viewpoint? Or is it >possible that decreasing levels of aggression with increasing group >size is actually indicative of the absence of a social organization - >and thus associated with increased "social stress?" I am no expert, but I too have been concerned about the chronic stress of overcrowding as opposed to the more acute stressors of agonistic encounters amongst more "naturally" spaced animals. Amongst other things, I am an avid aquarium hobbyist. And people who keep African lake cichlids (especially Malawian cichlids) are often told to keep many fish in a relatively small space, in order to *decrease* aggression problems. The theory is this: in an overcrowded tank the fish can't set up territories, and thus won't constantly be defending those territories. Now, this theory has always bothered me. Isn't a territory holder in some sense less stressed/more secure than a non-territory holder? In a fish that has evolved to hold territories, isn't the condition of being territory-less in itself stressful? Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 17-MAR-1999 18:31:46.58 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cattle social memory On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Jeff Rushen wrote: > > Could this be a result of statistical sampling of a rare behaviour? > If 1 steer out of 200 is a buller, then you are ten times as likely to see > bulling in a group of 200 than in a group of 20 steers. > If you observe 10 groups of 200 steers, you should see an > average of one instance per group (i.e. bulling in every group). > If you observe 10 groups > of 20 steers then you will only observe bulling in one of those > groups (i.e. an average of 0.10 instance per group). > Bulling might be more commonly seen in large groups, but this > does not mean that group size affects the incidence of bulling. > Jeff Rushen > Jeff are you taunting me? The effects of group size seem well documented. See the review by Blackshaw, et al (1997) Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci. 54:97-108. As group size increases so does the percentage of bullers. Take care, Joe From: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" 17-MAR-1999 20:52:46.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: elephants and dogs & anthropomorphism Someone commented to me that they thought perhaps we do not understand even a fraction of how animals understand the world. That is why I periodically will get brave and post a comment to your list. I recognize that I am in a unique position, because I live with elephants, to make observations. I try to leave it up to you all who have studied ethology to interpret what I have observed. Sometimes, however I think that some of "you" and also some of the biologists and others, particularly those who observe from a distance can they miss a lot by being either too structured (not allowing enough anthropomorphism or even intuition to creep in). I also think that sometimes the reasons why an animal does something may be attributed to a reason that makes no sense to someone who is accepted into the animals group...because we see it from a different angle because of our proximity and daily interaction. I acknowledge that our interaction can also, at times, change the way the animal responds..to us and to the whatever situation it is presented with... Just some thoughts...I enjoy and learn from all of your comments, thank you. Someone on one of these lists once reminded me that electricity would not have been discovered if it were not for wonder and curiosity. I think also through playful discovery! It was certainly not all through formulas and structered elimination processes and diagnostics and whatever scientists use to proove something...(the name of the guidelines, and the theory, for proving something escapes me at the moment, help? I know I have heard it mentioned here...) I hope that we all can better understand these amazing creatures better one day.. Also - I realize that this is not the bioaccooustics list and so except for one comment about the whales and dolphins, my comments about infrasounds were not addressed to much. I really felt that the elephants were aware of my pregnancy more because of their ability to hear low frequency sounds than hormonal changes in me... It is also of interest to note that I was giving elephant baths, scrub brush in hand - without hesitation until I was about 8 months pregnant...then I finally said enough is enough...So I did not change my behavior as much as some women might have. I was healthy and in good shape so continued the strenuous work of hauling hay, wheelbarrows, bathing, shoveling manure (each shovelfull weighs 43 pounds)etc... Not bragging just sharing... I am sure I must have done them all in a different fashion though because of the weight distribution (not to mention the morning sickness the first 3 months which slowed my shoveling technique tremendously ie: shovel, run for the door, shovel, ha ha...a little levity here for the women in the audience...who have been through that awful part of pregnancy..) Regards, Sheree Walters <") ,-''/^ ^`\ ~,~~''``^-.. (.) , ) \ `\ (`) . o ) ) )\ (`\/ (' / .) \ `-//..^ \__/ ( ) \ // \ ( ,) /\ / `/( /^~~--~~~^`( ) '| / | ( .) ( / ( .) /-.\ /-.| /-.| /-.| (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) Ivory Haven - Laura the Elephant's House on the Web: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248 Order Amazon.com books now through Laura's Bookstore! Ivory Haven gets a percentage $$$ of every order! http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248/books.htm Send free electronic greeting cards - over 500 to choose from: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248/greetings.html ICQ Pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2602279 From: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" 17-MAR-1999 20:53:20.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re:Protective behaviors & Dogs Additional comments: Deb Horwitz wrote "First, how do we "know" they are being >protective of us? Maybe they are protecting themselves." Australian Shepherd protecting the baby in the crib - I never asked it too, in fact was trying to show the baby to someone (who was a stranger to the dog) and the dog would not let them in the room. Now granted I don't usually take strangers into that room or if they are they are ususally women friends of mine. This instance involved a man who was a friend of the families who did visit often. My dogs generally though do not care who goes in what room once I have let them know it is okay for the person to be in the house to begin with. I never thought it had to do with hormones. Second, often we >give subtle messages to our pets about what behaviors we find acceptable, >i.e., if the breed of dog is one that has been genetically bred to "protect" >and "guard" we reinforce those behaviors both subtlety and perhaps more >overtly in situations where we want it to occur, in other words with our >children, ourselves in certain situations etc. So, is the dog "choosing" to >be protective, or is the dog responding to our desires? I have also seen my Aussie get very upset when someone other than me tries to ride my horse. I find this very annoying... and have never stopped anyone from going near my horse much less getting on it. Since at that point that they would have been invited to ride by me.. Perhaps the dog was just reacting to change? More than protecting my horse? Or the baby? The dogs are also more protective of me than anyone else in the family (now that my son is 5) Does this have something to do with them perhaps thinking I am the alpha female? Also my reasons for talking about herding type dogs was basically to point out that they seem to react differently to new births or changes in human family structure than other non-herding dogs where it would appear their is a problem with jealousy... Perhaps though this has less to do with breed than the way humans each relate to their dogs.. At our house we practice teaching our dogs when to "back off" and give us space. Much the way a mother dog would as was commented on on your list a few months back.... when the topic was separation anxiety etc.. Thanks, Sheree Walters <") ,-''/^ ^`\ ~,~~''``^-.. (.) , ) \ `\ (`) . o ) ) )\ (`\/ (' / .) \ `-//..^ \__/ ( ) \ // \ ( ,) /\ / `/( /^~~--~~~^`( ) '| / | ( .) ( / ( .) /-.\ /-.| /-.| /-.| (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) Ivory Haven - Laura the Elephant's House on the Web: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248 Order Amazon.com books now through Laura's Bookstore! Ivory Haven gets a percentage $$$ of every order! http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248/books.htm Send free electronic greeting cards - over 500 to choose from: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248/greetings.html ICQ Pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2602279 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 18-MAR-1999 08:11:22.53 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cattle social memory >>> 03/17 7:30 pm >>> Jeff are you taunting me? The effects of group size seem well documented.See the review by Blackshaw, et al (1997) Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci.54:97-108. As group size increases so does the percentage of bullers. Take care,Joe>>> No, I am not taunting you. I am just showing my ignorance :-) Jeff From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 18-MAR-1999 08:29:28.27 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cattle social memory >>> Jon Watts 03/17 11:44 am >>> I was just wondering if something like limits on social memory might be involved in buller steer syndrome which usually only occurs in large pens>>> But if buller syndrome was associated with difficulties in social memory shouldn't you find it also in small groups that are composed of strangers, or when animals are reintroduced into groups after a lengthy absence? This is the case with aggressive behaviour. If you merge two small groups into a large one, does the bulling tend to occur most between animals that were not orginally in the same group? Another possibility: perhaps bulling requires the combination of particular types of individuals and you are more likely to find these particular types together in a large herd than a small one (?) Jeff ! ! From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 18-MAR-1999 10:18:40.59 To: IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Lizards and Dotage Colleagues: Has anyone assessed striatal mechanisms in Alzheimers? (I want to be nea= r a warm wall in northern Italy in a few years; perhaps a return not only t= o my high school days over there but also getting "back to my lizard."!) Is this a subject pool? Repetitive automatic response sequences due to progressive loss of cross talk between them at the cortical level as we age? = Is there some sort of phylogenetic sequencing to the loss of skills? Perhaps display behaviors remain longer while negotiating skills go fast?= Jim Paul MacLean Festschrift BOSTON! 7/16-17/99 20 speakers (approx) including Karl Pribram contact Russ Gardner, rgj999@yahoo.com for details "Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values" John Price MD, Russ Gardner MD, John Fentress PhD, James Brody PhD 20th CAPE COD! Institute 7/19-23/1999 15 CME/CEU $455/$300 grad students & interns 610-948-5344 (info) 718-430-2307 (regist) www.cape.org/1999 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 18-MAR-1999 10:28:55.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: question I have been avidly following the cattle memory discussion and some terms keep appearing that I would like to question. For example, "bullying", "aggression", etc. in reference to what appears to be dominance behaviour. These are qualitative terms which do not appear to sufficiently describe the behaviour AND adds some subjective negativity. This is connected to an incident this past weekend where I worked with a sow that had been described to me as "crazy", "aggressive" and had "attacked" a few caretakers. It quickly became apparent that the sow was protecting her litter (piglets were being taken from a neighbouring sow). DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 18-MAR-1999 11:16:54.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: cattle social memory Dear Jeff, Joe, Ray and others, I've enjoyed the exchange of opinions on group sizes, buller steer syndrome, aggression and so forth. Please Jeff and Joe, do continue taunting each other, it's fun to read! My original (imprecise;-) question was about how many herdmates cattle can recognise. I'd still like to get some views on that, if there are any. Regards Jon P.S Any interpretation of what is meant by "recognise" will do for now! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"V.W.Koch@usda.gov" "V W Koch" 18-MAR-1999 17:14:25.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Hormones and Pregnancy I don't know about the hormones & pregnancy connection, but I know of a lot of anecdotal info indicating that animals can identify menstruating women (I'm guessing this is not "hormonal", but I'd guess the same for pregnancy) and change their behavior in response (usually increased aggressiveness by males, often directed toward the woman). I always thought this was pretty interesting, but don't know that anyone's ever looked into it formally. Wendy Koch v.w.koch@usda.gov From: IN%"V.W.Koch@usda.gov" "V W Koch" 18-MAR-1999 18:00:29.56 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cattle social memory; i.e., large groups, and aggression I find the large group vs aggression question an interesting one. I think the data do indicate that large groups show decreased aggression due to decreased social interactions, but that overcrowding causes increased aggression, and overcrowding seems to be a matter of perception. I think Joe is right that the incidence of violent crime is higher in larger cities than smaller ones in Western society. However, I bet the incidence of violent crimes in large Japanese cities is less than that in smaller US cities. I also suspect this has something to do with Japanese cultural coping mechanisms, like the tendency to avoid eye contact that Ray mentioned. It's when the prevalent coping mechanisms fail that we see the problems. (And so, back to how many cattle can a given cow recognize....?) Wendy From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 18-MAR-1999 19:04:13.00 To: IN%"V.W.Koch@usda.gov" "V W Koch", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Hormones and Pregnancy At 04:08 PM 3/18/99 -0700, V W Koch wrote: >I don't know about the hormones & pregnancy connection, but I know of a lot of >anecdotal info indicating that animals can identify menstruating women (I'm >guessing this is not "hormonal", but I'd guess the same for pregnancy) and >change their behavior in response (usually increased aggressiveness by males, >often directed toward the woman). I always thought this was pretty >interesting, but don't know that anyone's ever looked into it formally. > >Wendy Koch I always figured that it had something to do with the smell of blood. My dogs were always interested in that portion of my anatomy that had the blood scent on it. I found it embarrassing when I was in my teens, but now the point is moot. (grin) Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"westerfield@multipro.com" 18-MAR-1999 22:02:05.39 To: IN%"V.W.Koch@usda.gov" "V W Koch" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Hormones and Pregnancy V W Koch wrote: > > I don't know about the hormones & pregnancy connection, but I know of a lot of > anecdotal info indicating that animals can identify menstruating women (I'm > guessing this is not "hormonal", but I'd guess the same for pregnancy) and > change their behavior in response (usually increased aggressiveness by males, > often directed toward the woman). I always thought this was pretty > interesting, but don't know that anyone's ever looked into it formally. > > Wendy Koch > v.w.koch@usda.gov I worked at a children's petting zoo when I was in school. At the petting ring the adult male rabbits would immediately identify any menstrating women to the immense amusement of the young male employees. Patricia From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 19-MAR-1999 08:37:30.78 To: IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com" "INTERNET:HowlBloom@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com", IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" Subj: RE: Lizards and Dotage Message text written by INTERNET:HowlBloom@aol.com >My guess is that John Fentress is correct in connecting this with some of the facts you've outlined in the past about Attention Deficit Disorder. You've outlined evidence that those parts of the prefrontal cortex responsible for executive functions, especially such things as gratification postponement, play a role in Attention Deficit Disorder. It takes an ability to suppress one's current impatience and aim for a goal futher down the road to deal with others in a civil, negotiating manner. If the patience involved in gratification postponement goes, grouchiness follows. And a grouch is= a person who's lost the ability to negotiate calmly. Still, it would be interesting to learn more about why exhaustion and oth= er conditions deplete patience. Is patience a product of brain elements whi= ch call for an unusual amount of energy? Howard < Howard, A couple of thoughts -- "Grouchiness" is a tool that can be elicited or reinforced. Probably a back up system when negotiation fails. Part of the frustration-aggressio= n model wherein failure of reinforcement elicits a temporary escalation of previously effective instrumental responses -- might be learned or instinctive responses. In other words, kicking a stuck door often works.= Exhaustion and depression and fear and bunches of antecedents -- Bruce Pennington suggested in an offhand manner that Executive Functions are th= e most newly evolved and we might expect them to have less robust foundations. They depend (probably) on the stability of a wider network = of underlying systems than perhaps some of our other, more automatic or instinctive routines. We can expect EFs then to shift their bias in reaction to a very very wide array of events. Erosion in EFs then is correlated with relative gain in more instinctive systems such as grouchiness, spite, self indulgence, and many lizard routines. (can't wait to hear objections to "lizard" since we share a common ancestor but not a lineal tie with them. just means the common routines were possibly shared by our common ancestor and we learn about that ancestor by the things we share w lizards. better stop, I'm getting weird!) Also, caught your reference to Kauffman's models in response to Sally G. = I had similar thoughts about her model. I think I've found an array of phenomena that appear to move Kauffman out of the theoretical chamber. = Exploring them now for the coursebook (yep, another one!) for the coming Cape Seminar. Jim From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 19-MAR-1999 10:45:38.57 To: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Re:Protective behaviors On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 DebHdvm@aol.com wrote: >Debra Horwitz wrote: > >So, is the dog "choosing" to be protective, or is the dog responding >to our desires? Does anyone wish to comment on these questions? (I know >it is a "dog" question, but feel free to > comment on other species!) I am an undergraduate student at UMCP majoring in Marine Biology (with a specific interest in marine mammals, so I enjoyed the earlier message regarding the speculation about dolphins being able to detect pregnant humans and behave accordingly). I also have dogs (and cats) and would offer my own speculation (not based in research, mind you) that dogs are protective because of their wolf pack heritage and their role in the pack. I don't think it is hormonal or even bred for (although the trait could certainly be intensified by breeding). From what I know about wolves and the alpha/omega thing, all of the wolves will protect the alpha. In the case of domestic dogs, since the owner is the alpha and the owner's children are the alpha's children, it makes sense to me that a dog would sense it's role to protect. I would agree, though, that protective behavior stems from different origins depending upon the species (i.e., the dolphin example). Elizabeth Chandler From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 20-MAR-1999 00:15:24.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: Cattle and Social Memory How many con-specifics do they need to know? How do they live when given the freedom to roam the woods and plains.? How did the buffalo organise their herds? We are told horses form groups or troops within a larger herd. What happens when we do not castrate and constrain cattle in our yards? Is there an optimum size of familiar group? We are told that around 150 humans correlates with our cerebral development. Bulls at pasture seemed to space themselves rather like some cats in a refuge. Is 'bulling' a correlation with crowding? Stress heightens sexual activity. Vide the sexual pestering at the 'top salesmens' parties', the junketing after sports tournaments, Tail Hook, the antics of politicians such as Lloyd George, John Kennedy and that "Big Bonobo" whatshisname we heard about recently. Narses was a eunuch and the best general officer of his day at the court of Byzantium. Very warlike, very motivating. Life at Byzantium was pretty stressful! Enough to raise the testosterone levels of women never mind eunuchs! (Vide female American Lawyers who have been recorded with levels of androgens three times that of less competitive housewifely types.) How do the aggregates of 'harems' and bulls and calves reform after bolting in a mass stampede! Or do they manage to cohere in such circumstances? If so how? Did anyone study the bison or did everyone just shoot and skin them? What about the gnu? Does every gnu know every other gnu? Or do they have family groups? How do they reform after being chased around by predatory camera men? Are auditory and olfactory cues more important than remembering faces? What contribution might place preference have as an organiser in a natural range? Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 20-MAR-1999 00:56:37.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Crime and Crowding The criminal is constrained by the likelihood of discovery and capture. The village is intensely self-observed. this is often quite suffocating for the modern individual who has escaped to the 'anonymity' of the city. The feuding and hatreds of the small community are diffused and diluted in the crowd. Social and moral blunders can be 'lived down' in town but perhaps never in the hamlet. Another phenomenon is the odd response of the human psyche to space and loneliness. Military personnel in W.W.II reported 'odd' mental states resulting from desert and steppe landscapes. The mind seems to expand and riot in the absence of boundaries of terrain or people. The emotions of farming folk can boil in solitude. The harsher religions seem to develop in the areas of vast space and limitless horizon. The teeming multitude seems to constrain and confine the psyche. A degree of such discipline could be healthy. Conceit does not breed so briskly under the close scrutiny of many pairs of eyes. The stars, prima-donnas and royals who have the rank and status but lack true charisma and strength of personality tend to retreat into the small coterie of psychophants. They have to be protected from frank appraisal and challenge! Mental health is affected by group size Crime is affected by likelihood of detection. Suicide is affected by solitude. Robin "Familiarity breeds contempt if you are contemptible" Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 20-MAR-1999 00:58:39.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Crime and Crowding The criminal is constrained by the likelihood of discovery and capture. The village is intensely self-observed. this is often quite suffocating for the modern individual who has escaped to the 'anonymity' of the city. The feuding and hatreds of the small community are diffused and diluted in the crowd. Social and moral blunders can be 'lived down' in town but perhaps never in the hamlet. Another phenomenon is the odd response of the human psyche to space and loneliness. Military personnel in W.W.II reported 'odd' mental states resulting from desert and steppe landscapes. The mind seems to expand and riot in the absence of boundaries of terrain or people. The emotions of farming folk can boil in solitude. The harsher religions seem to develop in the areas of vast space and limitless horizon. The teeming multitude seems to constrain and confine the psyche. A degree of such discipline could be healthy. Conceit does not breed so briskly under the close scrutiny of many pairs of eyes. The stars, prima-donnas and royals who have the rank and status but lack true charisma and strength of personality tend to retreat into the small coterie of psychophants. They have to be protected from frank appraisal and challenge! Mental health is affected by group size Crime is affected by likelihood of detection. Suicide is affected by solitude. Robin "Familiarity breeds contempt if you are contemptible" Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 20-MAR-1999 16:34:13.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Labelling welfare foods I am not an expert on the subject, but I have heard from reasonably reliable sources that at least in some jurisdictions that "free range" when applied to chickens means only that the door to the 10,000 bird coop is open. In real life some of the chickens do go out sometimes, but certainly not all. I know not if this is true. Can anyone confirm or not. Reply to message from V.W.Koch@usda.gov of Tue, 02 Mar > >Julie Durrell wrote: > >Coop supermarkets in the UK not only labels their eggs as "free range" >but also as "produced by hens in battery cages" (or at least they used >to). Promoting certain produce as "non welfare friendly" is probably >more effective than promoting "welfare friendly" produce, as far as >getting consumers to buy the latter is concerned. > >Interesting! My own gut reaction to the two labels confirms, in my mind, that >"non welfare friendly" labels are more effective. Can any of the psychologists >in the group explain why? > >Wendy Koch >v.w.koch@usda.gov > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 20-MAR-1999 19:20:58.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'" CC: Subj: Thanks Hi All Just to thank all those who responded to my queries about noise, dust and stress in the absence of the stressor. Your contributions have been very useful to me and I'm busy writing a report! Best wishes Carol Carol Petherick Senior Research Scientist (Animal Behaviour & Welfare) Queensland Beef Industry Institute Tropical Beef Centre PO Box 5545 Central Qld Mail Centre Rockhampton Qld 4702 Australia email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au Tel: (0)7 4923 8200 Fax: (0)7 4923 8222 From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 21-MAR-1999 14:59:08.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Labelling welfare foods D.B. Cameron wrote: > > I am not an expert on the subject, but I have heard from reasonably > reliable sources that at least in some jurisdictions that "free range" when > applied to chickens means only that the door to the 10,000 bird coop is open. > In real life some of the chickens do go out sometimes, but certainly not all. > I know not if this is true. Can anyone confirm or not. 1) I am also interested in the answer to this. 2) Also, here in Montreal, they market "grain fed chicken" and sell it for more than regular chicken. What the heck do ordinary chickens eat?? Is "grain fed" supposed to mean something else, i.e. that the chickens are raise differently than regular chicken. 3) Thirdly, is there a way of distinguishing between poultry raised for poultry (broilers, I beleive?) and those laying hens (layers?) that are too old to produce eggs, so they are sold as chicken? (I bought an "economy pack" of chicken legs, one time, and almost all of the little legs were broken around the ankle...I have trouble dealing with that...). Thank-you, Chantal :-) From: IN%"silkesarnow@cityweb.de" "silke sarnow" 22-MAR-1999 15:32:00.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fw: new virus info -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Quenton Collins An: Pommern-L@genealogy.net Datum: Montag, 22. März 1999 21:38 Betreff: new virus info >VIRUS WARNING ! >If you receive an email entitled "It Takes Guts to Say 'Jesus'" DO >NOT open it. It will erase everything on your hard drive. Forward this >letter to as many people as you can. This is a new, very malicious virus >and not many people know about it. This information was announced >yesterday morning from IBM; please share it with everyone that might >access the internet. Once again, pass this along to EVERYONE in your >address book so that this may be stopped. AOL has said that this is a >very dangerous virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Fw: new virus info This virus is another hoax. Check out this page for email viruses: http://www.kumite.com/myths/. Check out this page specifically for the Jesus email hoax: http://www.stiller.com/guts.htm. You can not get a virus from reading an email. You can however receive a virus from an email attachment so only save attachments from trusted sources. Wes Epp From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 22-MAR-1999 16:09:00.22 CC: Subj: RE: Fw: new virus info At 03:52 PM 3/22/99 -0600, you wrote: >This virus is another hoax. Check out this page for email viruses: >http://www.kumite.com/myths/. Check out this page specifically for >the Jesus email hoax: http://www.stiller.com/guts.htm. > >You can not get a virus from reading an email. You can however >receive a virus from an email attachment so only save attachments >from trusted sources. > >Wes Epp It is my opinion that the purpose of most of these virus hoaxes is to get people to send them to each other and to lists, so that then other people can tell them they are hoaxes. One list that I was on spent two full days with dozens of posts just discussing how annoying these virus hoaxes are. And here I am doing the same thing.......... Actually I have a wonderful virus warning that is really clever. Anybody think I should send it to this list??? Vivian sorry about that.... Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 22-MAR-1999 16:09:06.08 To: IN%"silkesarnow@cityweb.de" "silke sarnow" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Fw: new virus info THIS IS A HOAX!! PLEASE do not pass on "virus alerts" to lists--almost all of them are HOAXES. For more info on virus hoaxes, see http://www.kumite.com/myths/home.htm . Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 22-MAR-1999 16:10:21.69 To: IN%"silkesarnow@cityweb.de" "silke sarnow" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Fw: new virus info "Guts To Say Jesus" is another known virus hoax. See http://www.icsa.net/services/consortia/anti-virus/alerthoax.shtml for info on this and other hoax viruses, if you want to. The real effect of the virus is to waste time (like mine) and worry people. I suggest not circulating it to all your net buddies "just in case". Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 22-MAR-1999 16:11:28.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: WARNING-EMAIL VIRUS-READ THIS MESSAGE I have just received a message from the FBI about a particularly deadly computer virus. Apparently, this virus will attack anyone who sends a message to a email list, warning of a virus sent by email! The virus can destroy software, hard drives and even melt entire PCs! (Ever wonder why you haven't seen a warning about GOOD TIMES lately? It is because the people who sent the warnings, all have had their computers destroyed by this virus!). Therefore, please, for your own sake, under no circumstances must you send a message to applied-ethology warning of a virus sent by email! Or even send in a comment or a complaint or an explanation or a refutation of such a message. Don't even think about it. That may be all it takes, to be struck down. YOUR FATE IS IN YOUR OWN HANDS!! BE WARNED!! ! ! From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 22-MAR-1999 18:08:17.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Fw: new virus info At 03:52 PM 3/22/99 -0600, you wrote: >This virus is another hoax. Check out this page for email viruses: >http://www.kumite.com/myths/. Check out this page specifically for >the Jesus email hoax: http://www.stiller.com/guts.htm. > >You can not get a virus from reading an email. You can however >receive a virus from an email attachment so only save attachments >from trusted sources. > >Wes Epp It is my opinion that the purpose of most of these virus hoaxes is to get people to send them to each other and to lists, so that then other people can tell them they are hoaxes. One list that I was on spent two full days with dozens of posts just discussing how annoying these virus hoaxes are. And here I am doing the same thing.......... Actually I have a wonderful virus warning that is really clever. Anybody think I should send it to this list??? Vivian sorry about that.... Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"emily.patterson-kane@vuw.ac.nz" "Emily G Patterson-Kane" 22-MAR-1999 19:36:17.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Trojan Horse 3.0 >WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! >IF YOU RECEIVE A GIFT IN THE SHAPE OF A LARGE WOODEN >HORSE DO NOT DOWNLOAD IT!!!! It is EXTREMELY >DESTRUCTIVE and will overwrite your ENTIRE CITY! >The "gift" is disguised as a large wooden horse about two stories >tall. It tends to show up outside the city gates and appears to be >abandoned. DO NOT let it through the gates! It contains hardware >that is incompatible with Trojan programming, including a crowd of >heavily armed Greek warriors that will destroy your army, sack your >town, and kill your women and children. If you have already received >such a gift, DO NOT OPEN IT! Take it back out of the city unopened >and set fire to it by the beach. >FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW! From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no" "Bjarne O. Braastad" 23-MAR-1999 04:06:49.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE'99 - Second Announcement on web Dear colleagues, The Second Announcement and Registration Form for the ISAE'99 congress in Lillehammer, Norway are included with the ISAE Spring Newsletter. I have made completely new web pages for the congress, with even more information than in the Second Announcement. This information will be updated regularly. Have a look at: http://org.nlh.no/isae99 To those waiting for response on their submitted abstract: The abstract evaluation process is completed, the scientific program is made, and letters to submitters were posted by air mail yesterday. You should receive a letter within about three days. Don't forget to submit a revised version of your abstract by 1st May, and please remember that the contribution will be deleted from the proceedings if the first author have not registered for the congress by 1st June. Thanks a lot to all reviewers who made this process almost according to the schedule. See you in Lillehammer! Bjarne O. Braastad ******************************************************************* Dr. Bjarne O. Braastad, Assoc. Prof. of Ethology, Chairman of the Organising Committee 33rd International Congress of the ISAE (International Society for Applied Ethology), 17-21 August 1999, Lillehammer, Norway Address: Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: isae99@ihf.nlh.no or bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 internet: http://org.nlh.no/isae99 ************************************************************************* Internet: http://org.nlh.no/isae99 From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 23-MAR-1999 07:13:35.34 To: IN%"emily.patterson-kane@vuw.ac.nz" "Emily G Patterson-Kane", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Trojan Horse 3.0 response At 01:35 PM 3/23/99 +1200, Emily G Patterson-Kane wrote: >>WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! >>IF YOU RECEIVE A GIFT IN THE SHAPE OF A LARGE WOODEN >>HORSE DO NOT DOWNLOAD IT!!!! It is EXTREMELY >>DESTRUCTIVE and will overwrite your ENTIRE CITY! >>The "gift" is disguised as a large wooden horse about two stories >>tall. It tends to show up outside the city gates and appears to be >>abandoned. DO NOT let it through the gates! It contains hardware >>that is incompatible with Trojan programming, including a crowd of >>heavily armed Greek warriors that will destroy your army, sack your >>town, and kill your women and children. If you have already received >>such a gift, DO NOT OPEN IT! Take it back out of the city unopened >>and set fire to it by the beach. >>FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW! I hate to break to you, but this is one of the oldest hoaxes there is. I've seen variants on this warning come through on other listservs, one involving some kind of fruit that was supposed to kill the people who ate it and one having to do with something called the "Midas Touch." Here are a few tipoffs that this is a hoax: 1) This "Forward this message to everyone you know" crap. If it were really meant as a warning about the Greek army, why tell anyone to post it to the Phonecians, Sumerians, and Cretans? 2) Use of exclamation points. Always a giveaway. 3) It's signed "from Poseidon." Granted he's had his problems with Odysseus but he's one of their guys, isn't he? Besides, the lack of a real header with a detailed address makes me suspicious. 4) Technically speaking, there is no way for a horse to overwrite your entire city. A horse is just an animal, after all. Next time you get a message like this, just delete it. I appreciate your concern, but once you've been around the block a couple times you'll realize how annoying this kind of stuff is. From: IN%"c.moons@planetinternet.be" "c.moons" 23-MAR-1999 09:05:26.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethologie Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: Trojan Horse 3.0 response >I hate to break to you, but this is one of the oldest hoaxes there is. I've >seen variants on this warning come through on other listservs, one involving >some kind of fruit that was supposed to kill the people who ate it and one >having to do with something called the "Midas Touch." Here are a few tipoffs >that this is a hoax If I can give a modest input on this one, I would say the point is missed on the "Trojan horse warning" sent by Emily Patterson. This is not a hoax, this isn't even meant to be a warning, but a simple joke. The way I see it, whoever wrote this was aiming for a sarcastic analogy with a computer virus warning, using an episode from ancient Greece's history, described by the poet Homerus. In that episode, a Greek girl named Helena was abducted by the son of the Trojan king, Pais. So the Greek went to battle and wanted to raid Troje. Only one problem, it lasted 10 years and they still weren't inside the city walls. This is where they come up with the idea to use a ruse by building a huge wooden horse and by stuffing it with Greek soldiers. After having put the horse at the city gate, the Greek left. Of course, the Trojans, having thought the war was over, dragged the 'gift' within their city and at night, the Greek in armour came out of the horse and conquered Troje. So, I would like to extend my thanks to Emily Patterson for sharing this bit of humour with us! Sincerely, Christel Moons ps: Please forgive me should I have insulted anyone's intelligence by stating what I just did. pps: Also, please forgive me Jeff Rushen for having engaged in virus-talk and risking the safety of me and my computer From: IN%"c.moons@planetinternet.be" "c.moons" 23-MAR-1999 09:14:38.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethologie Network (E-mail)", IN%"emily.patterson-kane@vuw.ac.nz" "Emily G Patterson-Kane", IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" CC: Subj: RE: Trojan Horse 3.0 response Dit is een meerdelig bericht in MIME-indeling. --Boundary_(ID_H+dEhBZmQCWDWEld077/zA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable >I hate to break to you, but this is one of the oldest hoaxes there is. = I've >seen variants on this warning come through on other listservs, one involving >some kind of fruit that was supposed to kill the people who ate it and = one >having to do with something called the "Midas Touch." Here are a few tipoffs >that this is a hoax If I can give a modest input on this one, I would say the point is = missed on the "Trojan horse warning" sent by Emily Patterson. This is not a hoax, this isn't even meant to be a warning, but a simple joke. The way I see it, whoever wrote this was aiming for a sarcastic analogy with a computer virus warning, using an episode from ancient Greece's history, described by the poet Homerus. In that episode, a Greek girl named Helena was abducted by the son of = the Trojan king, Pais. So the Greek went to battle and wanted to raid Troje. Only one problem, it lasted 10 years and they still weren't inside the = city walls. This is where they come up with the idea to use a ruse by = building a huge wooden horse and by stuffing it with Greek soldiers. After having = put the horse at the city gate, the Greek left. Of course, the Trojans, = having thought the war was over, dragged the 'gift' within their city and at = night, the Greek in armour came out of the horse and conquered Troje. So, I would like to extend my thanks to Emily Patterson for sharing this = bit of humour with us! Sincerely, Christel Moons ps: Please forgive me should I have insulted anyone's intelligence by stating what I just did. pps: Also in case this email makes it to the network -I'm not sure = anymore-, please forgive me Jeff Rushen for having engaged in virus-talk and risking the safety of me and my computer --Boundary_(ID_H+dEhBZmQCWDWEld077/zA) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
>I hate to break to you, but this is one of the oldest hoaxes = there is.=20 I've
>seen variants on this warning come through on other = listservs,=20 one
involving
>some kind of fruit that was supposed to kill the = people=20 who ate it and one
>having to do with something called the = "Midas=20 Touch." Here are a few
tipoffs
>that this is a = hoax


If=20 I can give a modest input on this one, I would say the point is missed = on
the=20 "Trojan horse warning" sent by Emily Patterson.
This is not = a hoax,=20 this isn't even meant to be a warning, but a simple
joke. The way I = see it,=20 whoever wrote this was aiming for a sarcastic
analogy with a computer = virus=20 warning, using an episode from ancient
Greece's history, described by = the=20 poet Homerus.
In that episode, a Greek girl named Helena was abducted = by the=20 son of the
Trojan king, Pais. So the Greek went to battle and wanted = to raid=20 Troje.
Only one problem, it lasted 10 years and they still weren't = inside the=20 city
walls. This is where they come up with the idea to use a ruse by = building a
huge wooden horse and by stuffing it with Greek soldiers. = After=20 having put
the horse at the city gate, the Greek left. Of course, the = Trojans, having
thought the war was over, dragged the 'gift' within = their=20 city and at night,
the Greek in armour came out of the horse and = conquered=20 Troje.

So, I would like to extend my thanks to Emily Patterson = for=20 sharing this bit
of humour with us!

Sincerely,
Christel=20 Moons

ps: Please forgive me should I have insulted anyone's = intelligence=20 by
stating what I just did.
pps: Also in case this email makes it = to the=20 network -I'm not sure anymore-, please forgive me Jeff Rushen for having = engaged=20 in virus-talk
and risking the safety of me and my=20 computer 
--Boundary_(ID_H+dEhBZmQCWDWEld077/zA)-- From: IN%"c.moons@planetinternet.be" "c.moons" 23-MAR-1999 09:16:04.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethologie Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: oops Dit is een meerdelig bericht in MIME-indeling. --Boundary_(ID_j5NxI6PG46NGlodKmjO6PQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable My appologies for having sent the email about the Trojan horse twice.... Sincerely, Christel Moons --Boundary_(ID_j5NxI6PG46NGlodKmjO6PQ) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
My appologies for having sent the = email about=20 the Trojan horse twice....
 
Sincerely,
 
Christel = Moons
--Boundary_(ID_j5NxI6PG46NGlodKmjO6PQ)-- From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 23-MAR-1999 09:25:11.20 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: New life form discovered I think we are missing the important point about email virus hoaxes: they are a totally new life form. Anyone who as followed Richard Dawkins and Susan Blakemore's views on memes will recognize email virus hoaxes as a perfect example viz. 1. they survive and replicate purely because they survive and replicate not because they serve any "function" 2. their survival and replication depends totally on their ability to influence the human central nervous system through the transmission of abstract information However, their capacity to elicit lengthy discourses on Homer etc. is probably only a biproduct resulting from the disturbed functioning of the infected brain :-) (Or is this a mutant of the original meme?) Jeff Rushen ! ! From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 23-MAR-1999 09:28:45.61 To: IN%"c.moons@planetinternet.be" "c.moons", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethologie Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: Trojan Horse 3.0 response At 04:00 PM 3/23/99 +0100, c.moons wrote: > >>I hate to break to you, but this is one of the oldest hoaxes there is. I've >>seen variants on this warning come through on other listservs, one >involving >>some kind of fruit that was supposed to kill the people who ate it and one >>having to do with something called the "Midas Touch." Here are a few >tipoffs >>that this is a hoax > > >If I can give a modest input on this one, I would say the point is missed on >the "Trojan horse warning" sent by Emily Patterson. >This is not a hoax, this isn't even meant to be a warning, but a simple >joke. I received this joke as the whole thing. I sent the second half after emily sent the first half. Vivian From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 23-MAR-1999 14:56:55.90 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"emily.patterson-kane@vuw.ac.nz" CC: Subj: RE: Trojan Horse 3.0 Thanks! Does this apply to wooden cows also? Paul >>> Emily G Patterson-Kane 03/22/99 08:35PM >>> >WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! >IF YOU RECEIVE A GIFT IN THE SHAPE OF A LARGE WOODEN >HORSE DO NOT DOWNLOAD IT!!!! It is EXTREMELY >DESTRUCTIVE and will overwrite your ENTIRE CITY! >The "gift" is disguised as a large wooden horse about two stories >tall. It tends to show up outside the city gates and appears to be >abandoned. DO NOT let it through the gates! It contains hardware >that is incompatible with Trojan programming, including a crowd of >heavily armed Greek warriors that will destroy your army, sack your >town, and kill your women and children. If you have already received >such a gift, DO NOT OPEN IT! Take it back out of the city unopened >and set fire to it by the beach. >FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW! From: IN%"c.moons@planetinternet.be" "c.moons" 24-MAR-1999 05:41:41.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethologie Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: Trojan horse thing Dit is een meerdelig bericht in MIME-indeling. --Boundary_(ID_dmjl7Lo3q7JzHZ27QVVyJw) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable To Jeff Rushen: If you think that was lengthy, you should see the actual story.... :-) Christel --Boundary_(ID_dmjl7Lo3q7JzHZ27QVVyJw) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
To Jeff Rushen:
 
If you think that was lengthy, you = should see=20 the actual story....  :-)
 
 
Christel
--Boundary_(ID_dmjl7Lo3q7JzHZ27QVVyJw)-- From: IN%"thebeesknees@erols.com" "Nancy" 24-MAR-1999 11:22:05.98 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction - Nancy This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_KfdCdqmofA7YjtkqDLKrlw) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I'm an amateur feline behaviorist. I have no formal training (though = I'm trying to find the right program for me) but I have years of = experience with feline behavior. I rescue, trap/tame, and foster and = adopt out between 20-30 cats each year (and a couple of dogs, too) and, = with an excellent vet as a mentor, am learning to differentiate = psychologically-based problems from physically-based ones. I also = rehabilitate cats after amputation surgeries and injuries. The vets in = my neighborhood refer people with cats needing behavioral assistance to = me; I have a pretty good success rate. I recently rescued and adopted a = 7-month old deaf English Setter into my feline Zoo, and am enjoying = discovering the differences and similarities between canines and = felines.=20 --Boundary_(ID_KfdCdqmofA7YjtkqDLKrlw) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
I'm an amateur feline=20 behaviorist.  I have no formal training (though I'm trying to find = the=20 right program for me) but I have years of experience with feline =20 behavior.  I rescue, trap/tame, and foster and adopt out between = 20-30 cats=20 each year (and a couple of dogs, too) and, with an excellent vet as a = mentor, am=20 learning to differentiate psychologically-based problems from = physically-based=20 ones.  I also rehabilitate cats after amputation surgeries and=20 injuries.  The vets in my neighborhood refer people with cats = needing=20 behavioral assistance to me; I have a pretty good success rate.  I = recently=20 rescued and adopted a 7-month old deaf English Setter into my feline = Zoo, and am=20 enjoying discovering the differences and similarities between canines = and=20 felines.
--Boundary_(ID_KfdCdqmofA7YjtkqDLKrlw)-- From: IN%"lirio@uol.com.br" "Mauro Lantzman" 24-MAR-1999 19:13:33.12 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Madrid Could some one give me information about The "Primeiro Congreso de etologia clinica veterinaria" in Madrid. Thank you -- Mauro Lantzman Veterinário, Clínica de Comportamento Animal e Homeopatia tel. (55) (11) 210-6315 comercial página na internet: http://www.pet.vet.br From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 25-MAR-1999 04:11:13.86 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology", IN%"lirio@uol.com.br" "Mauro Lantzman" CC: Subj: RE: Madrid Get in touch with Prof. Miguel Ibanez Talegon mibanez@vet.ucm.es > Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:11:48 -0300 > From: Mauro Lantzman > Subject: Madrid > To: Applied-ethology > Could some one give me information about > The "Primeiro Congreso de etologia clinica veterinaria" in Madrid. > > Thank you > > -- > Mauro Lantzman > > Veterin=E1rio, Cl=EDnica de Comportamento Animal e Homeopatia > tel. (55) (11) 210-6315 comercial > > p=E1gina na internet: > http://www.pet.vet.br > > > > > > Prof.Dr.F.O.=D6dberg Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: +32-(0)9-2647849 From: IN%"pln1@clermont.inra.fr" "Pierre LE NEINDRE" 25-MAR-1999 04:37:18.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: mutilation Dear colleague, I am trying to find a definition of the word "mutilation". Could you tell me what will be for you the best definition(s)? Merci Pierre Le Neindre From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 25-MAR-1999 05:58:01.92 To: IN%"EuterpeL@aol.com" "'EuterpeL@aol.com'", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "paleopsych@kumo.com", IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com" "HowlBloom@aol.com", IN%"spiwiz@iglobal.net" "spiwiz@iglobal.net", IN%"fentress@is.dal.ca" "fentress@is.dal.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: Danger Signal Frequencies. This isn't funny Lor! I used to spring from the bath like a stallion. I have to turn over on hands and knees and=20 get up by stages like a old cow. It's a question of weight vs. muscle strength.=20 I would like to borrow the reply addresses to ask an evolutionary question. It is another slew of jigsaw pieces. Like I always say I have some "blue bits" but they might be sky or they might be someone's trousers! The Pieces 1. The (human) brain normally reacts most strongly to clicking sounds at a rate of 40 a second. [This was talked about a the 50th anniversary seminar of the=20 Medical Research Council. 2. Certain sounds seem by common consent to be scary. The creaking of a door for example or the ominous cracking of support or branch about to break. (Implications for "tree-folk"?) 3. Last night I watched an very "hammy" Australian herpetologist in most unsuitable short trousers handling rattlesnakes in various parts of U.S.A. I was hoping that he would mention the rattle frequency of the alarmed snake. He did. He=20 said it can go up to 50 "clicks" (my parentheses) a second. By now you will have the picture into which I would=20 like to fit my "pieces" . Forward with that reptilian brain thing Jim Brody! 4. Here is another piece! John Fentress drew our attention to "music and epilepsy". Now if you can arouse the brain in certain ways you can ameliorate seizure activity. Mozart's Sonata for Two Pianos (K.448) is cited as reducing brain seizures. Weinberger does not know=20 what feature of the music might be effective. My huge guess is that pizzicato passages of piano might be attaining around 40 plinks (clicks?) a second. Does anyone have the CD? Could someone dash to the piano and knock it out for me? Help here! I am fit to froth with frustration. Of course the Elgar School of Music is just down the road but I would like some formed material from the evolutionary guys first. So please. Up into=20 a tree with a safety net and a clickometer and break a leg for me! In the name of research of course. Robin -----Original Message----- From: EuterpeL@aol.com [SMTP:EuterpeL@aol.com] Sent: 25 March 1999 04:14 To: paleopsych@kumo.com; HowlBloom@aol.com; robin@coape.win-uk.net; = spiwiz@iglobal.net; fentress@is.dal.ca; brianduc@cpt-proxy1.mweb.co.za; = rgj999@yahoo.com; paleopsych@paleopsych.org Subject: Living longer I am not going to tell you which I laughed loudest at..... Top Ten Bad Things About Living Longer=20 10. Seems like every time you turn around that damn Halley's comet is = back=20 9. Would see great, great, great grandchildren marry moon men=20 8. (See Richards, Keith)=20 7. Shoulder-length ear hair=20 6. If you're a Mets fan you'd rather go early=20 5. More fantasies about Buddy Ebsen=20 4. Every time you sneeze, you break your hip=20 3. Eventually it's your turn to marry Zsa Zsa=20 2. While you grow to love Beavis, Butthead becomes almost unbearable=20 1. All the shoes From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 25-MAR-1999 09:48:24.51 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com" CC: IN%"brianduc@cpt-proxy1.mweb.co.za" "brianduc@cpt-proxy1.mweb.co.za", IN%"fentress@is.dal.ca" "fentress@is.dal.ca", IN%"spiwiz@iglobal.net" "spiwiz@iglobal.net", IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com" "HowlBloom@aol.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "paleopsych@kumo Subj: Danger Signal Frequencies. Message text written by Robin Walker >1. The (human) brain normally reacts most strongly to clicking sounds at a rate of 40 a second. [This was talked about a the 50th anniversary seminar of the = Medical Research Council. 2. Certain sounds seem by common consent to be scary. The creaking of a door for example or the ominous cracking of support or branch about to break. (Implications for "tree-folk"?) 3. Last night I watched an very "hammy" Australian herpetologist in most unsuitable short trousers handling rattlesnakes in various parts of U.S.A. I was hoping that he would mention the rattle frequency of the alarmed snake. He did. He = said it can go up to 50 "clicks" (my parentheses) a second. By now you will have the picture into which I would = like to fit my "pieces" . Forward with that reptilian brain thing Jim Brody!< =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D A relatively high proportion (about 50%+) of the males (children or husbands) coming to my office have unusual reactivity to high frequency sounds, rattling change, scratching nails on a chalkboard, etc. The male= precentage seems to be at least 5 times greater than the female. Possibilities: 1) It's evolutionary via MacLean, snakes, branches and the EEA. Males a= re more likely than females since we "came to ground" first, a mirror image = of Coss et al. who argue that females stayed in the trees longer. 2) It's a spandrel due the the very high percentage of infant ear infections in this same group of people BUT one that is a clue. I once posted (http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary) a set of speculations about early ear infections and auditory/CNS damage. There's research tha= t cranial volume is driven by hydrostatic pressure more than by genes, prenatal CNS growth "breaks away" our inner ear from our mandible. Could= it be that impulse disorders, often associated with deficiences in language/grammar acquisition and retrieval, are mediated by a pathogen an= d that the high heritability (0.92, more than for any other mental impairment) reflects a symbiotic bug of some kind rather than an earlier form of dopamine-related genes? 3) My anecdotal impressions are totally off about the people who consult me. 4) I see the only existing males on earth who commonly have high frequenc= y auditory irritability 5) My guys are lying to me, that it's a convenient excuse to yell about their kid's loud stereo or their wife's talking in the background. = Likewise for the kid who cranks up the TV volume to mask vocal input from= other people in the house and at the same time, since his parents have th= e identical trait, driving them crazy because they "can't" shut out the noi= se from the TV. 6) Counts also for the "screechy" tone that females and infants use to motivate us to take out trash or to pick them up or to punish us for not spending time with our screechy infant. Luv those lizards! Jim Paul MacLean Festschrift BOSTON! 7/16-17/99 23 speakers (approx) including Karl Pribram contact Russ Gardner, rgj999@yahoo.com for details "Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values" John Price MD, Russ Gardner MD, John Fentress PhD, James Brody PhD 20th CAPE COD! Institute 7/19-23/1999 15 CME/CEU $455/$300 grad students & interns 610-948-5344 (info) 718-430-2307 (regist) www.cape.org/1999/price.html From: IN%"pln1@clermont.inra.fr" "Pierre LE NEINDRE" 25-MAR-1999 10:24:05.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: mutilation Dear colleague, I am trying to find a definition of the word "mutilation". Could you tell me what is(are) for you the best definition(s)of that word? Merci Pierre Le Neindre From: IN%"LilleBird@aol.com" 25-MAR-1999 10:28:49.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network" CC: Subj: RE: Danger Signal Frequencies. 4. Here is another piece! John Fentress drew our attention to "music and epilepsy". Now if you can arouse the brain in certain ways you can ameliorate seizure activity. >> I KNEW IT. I knew there was a reason. I LOVE the violin to a point that is not rational. I would be willing to be the controll (althought I am quite mad) subject. elaine buchsbaum Red Dog Training lillebird@aol.com From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 25-MAR-1999 11:00:55.41 To: IN%"pln1@clermont.inra.fr", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: mutilation >>> Pierre LE NEINDRE 03/25 12:22 pm >>>I am trying to find a definition of the word "mutilation". Could you tell me what is(are) for you the best definition(s)of that word?>>> Pierre, I assume you are asking this in the context of operations done on animals, such as tail docking, dehorning etc. The Oxford English Dictionary defines mutilate as "injure or damage a person or animal or part of the body very severely, e.g. by removal of a limb or organ". In my opinion, when the word is used in relation to people it has a definite negative connotation either implying an accident or a deliberate attempt to do harm (e.g. "He was mutilated in the accident". or "Mutilated bodies are often found after a cruise missile attack".) I do not think many people would say that "I was mutilated by the surgeon" if I had had a leg amputated for medical reasons. If they did, it would suggest that the surgeon had done a bad job. Referring to operations done on animals, such as dehorning, as "mutilations" gives them a negative connotation. If you want to be neutral, or want to give the impression of being neutral, or don't want to prejudge the issue by the choice of words, "amputation" might be a better word. Jeff Rushen ! ! From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 25-MAR-1999 11:51:18.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: FW: Danger Signal Frequencies. Interesting. -----Original Message----- From: Ian Penton-Voak [SMTP:ip@st-andrews.ac.uk] Sent: 25 March 1999 16:16 To: James F. Brody; Robin Walker Subject: Re: Danger Signal Frequencies. Hi Robin & Jim, You may be interested in my 1996 paper in the Journal of Experimental Psychology on changes in subjective time in response to click trains - I don't have any reprints left I'm afraid. Basically, time subjectively slows down in response to clicking noises (which are thought to increase arousal), giving you more time to get out of the way. Fits in nicely with your idea. I always thought this was an adaptive response, but hadn't made your leap to reptiles & rattlers! We didn't find a sex difference, and assumed other 'arousing' stimuli would have a similar effect - some work by Treisman used white noise to similar effect. The paper isn't written from an ev. psych. perspective. Feel free to forward this to anyone who may find it interesting. Here's the ref. & abstract: Penton-Voak, I.S., Edwards, H., Percival, A., Wearden, J.H. (1996). Speeding Up an Internal Clock in Humans? Effects of Click Trains on Subjective Duration. JEP: ABP, 22, 3, 307-320. Abstract: Four experiments investigated the effect of trains of clicks (usually 5 s long and at 5 or 25 Hz) on subjective duration in humans, as previous research had suggested that such a manipulation would speed up the pacemaker of an internal clock by increasing participants' arousal. The four experiments used temporal generalization, pair comparison of duration, verbal estimation, and production of short durations. In all cases, preceding the durations to be judged by clicks changed their subjective length in a manner broadly consistent with the idea that pacemaker speed was increased, by an average of about 10%. Cheers, Ian James F. Brody wrote: > Message text written by Robin Walker > >1. The (human) brain normally reacts most strongly to > clicking sounds at a rate of 40 a second. [This was > talked about a the 50th anniversary seminar of the > Medical Research Council. > > 2. Certain sounds seem by common consent to be > scary. The creaking of a door for example or the > ominous cracking of support or branch about to > break. (Implications for "tree-folk"?) > > 3. Last night I watched an very "hammy" Australian > herpetologist in most unsuitable short trousers > handling rattlesnakes in various parts of U.S.A. > I was hoping that he would mention the rattle > frequency of the alarmed snake. He did. He > said it can go up to 50 "clicks" (my parentheses) > a second. > > By now you will have the picture into which I would > like to fit my "pieces" . Forward with that reptilian > brain thing Jim Brody!< > ================== > A relatively high proportion (about 50%+) of the males (children or > husbands) coming to my office have unusual reactivity to high frequency > sounds, rattling change, scratching nails on a chalkboard, etc. The male > precentage seems to be at least 5 times greater than the female. > > Possibilities: > 1) It's evolutionary via MacLean, snakes, branches and the EEA. Males are > more likely than females since we "came to ground" first, a mirror image of > Coss et al. who argue that females stayed in the trees longer. > > 2) It's a spandrel due the the very high percentage of infant ear > infections in this same group of people BUT one that is a clue. I once > posted (http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary) a set of speculations > about early ear infections and auditory/CNS damage. There's research that > cranial volume is driven by hydrostatic pressure more than by genes, > prenatal CNS growth "breaks away" our inner ear from our mandible. Could > it be that impulse disorders, often associated with deficiences in > language/grammar acquisition and retrieval, are mediated by a pathogen and > that the high heritability (0.92, more than for any other mental > impairment) reflects a symbiotic bug of some kind rather than an earlier > form of dopamine-related genes? > > 3) My anecdotal impressions are totally off about the people who consult > me. > > 4) I see the only existing males on earth who commonly have high frequency > auditory irritability > > 5) My guys are lying to me, that it's a convenient excuse to yell about > their kid's loud stereo or their wife's talking in the background. > Likewise for the kid who cranks up the TV volume to mask vocal input from > other people in the house and at the same time, since his parents have the > identical trait, driving them crazy because they "can't" shut out the noise > from the TV. > > 6) Counts also for the "screechy" tone that females and infants use to > motivate us to take out trash or to pick them up or to punish us for not > spending time with our screechy infant. > > Luv those lizards! > > Jim > > Paul MacLean Festschrift > BOSTON! > 7/16-17/99 > 23 speakers (approx) including Karl Pribram > contact Russ Gardner, rgj999@yahoo.com for details > > "Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values" > John Price MD, Russ Gardner MD, John Fentress PhD, James Brody PhD > 20th CAPE COD! Institute > 7/19-23/1999 > 15 CME/CEU > $455/$300 grad students & interns > 610-948-5344 (info) > 718-430-2307 (regist) > www.cape.org/1999/price.html -- Ian Penton-Voak, School of Psychology, University of St. Andrews, KY16 8PU Tel: (+44) 1334 46 3044 or 3058 ip@st-and.ac.uk http://psych.st-and.ac.uk:8080/~ip From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 25-MAR-1999 13:16:24.10 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: FW: Danger Signal Frequencies. Message text written by Robin Walker >Ian Penton-Voak [SMTP:ip@st-andrews.ac.uk] Sent: 25 March 1999 16:16 To: James F. Brody; Robin Walker Subject: Re: Danger Signal Frequencies. Hi Robin & Jim, You may be interested in my 1996 paper in the Journal of Experimental Psychology on changes in subjective time in response to click trains - I don't have any reprints left I'm afraid. Basically, time subjectively slows dow= n in response to clicking noises (which are thought to increase arousal), givi= ng you more time to get out of the way. Fits in nicely with your idea. I always thought this was an adaptive response, but hadn't made your leap to reptiles & rattlers!< Ian, Many thanks for the lead -- I see a self-referred clinical group characterized by impulsiveness and hyperactivity. Your lack of finding = a sex difference means that I should verify my own observations with my gro= up but it's one of those things to do that may not get done. Thanks also for your OK to forward your response to others! Jim Brody From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 25-MAR-1999 13:25:39.52 To: IN%"fentress@IS.Dal.Ca" "INTERNET:fentress@IS.Dal.Ca", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com" CC: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker", IN%"rgj999@yahoo.com" "rgj999@yahoo.com", IN%"brianduc@cpt-proxy1.mweb.co.za" "brianduc@cpt-proxy1.mweb.co.za", IN%"spiwiz@iglobal.net" "spiwiz@iglobal.net", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "paleopsych@kumo.com Subj: RE: Danger Signal Frequencies. Message text written by INTERNET:fentress@IS.Dal.Ca >I just came back from a meeting in Davis, California, and talked with = a guy who looks at tree climbing in male and female children, when = threatened.< John, Thanks for the lead ... the Coss work is fascinating stuff. I lately met= a dad whose 13 yo daughter beats him in "rock climbing gyms" ... she's comfortable up high, he's petrified. Maybe we ought to hang in some gyms= with data pads. Oh gosh! "hang out" ???? I was just talking to Nando about the phylogenetic overlaps with some of our pet phrases and curses ... can't possibly be a reference to some of our ancestor's habits. Bet Glenn would remember! (LOL) Jim Brody Jim Brody From: IN%"racorn@cyberus.ca" "Rob Acorn" 25-MAR-1999 20:39:01.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Housing Chickens This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_8Z1P76WNFT0oTe3xt0bg0g) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, I have several questions about housing chickens. =20 1. What types of environmental enrichment are available for chickens in = battery cages? =20 2. Do chickens ever use the pecking toys that are often placed in the = cages, or are the toys really there for the benefit of concerned humans? = If they do use the toys, does it have any noticeable effect on the = health or productivity of the birds? 3. Is there a specific housing _density_ (in both cage and non-cage = systems) that corresponds to higher aggression levels, and if so, do = aggression levels decrease if that density is exceeded? 4. Is there a specific housing _number_ (in both cage and non-cage = systems) that corresponds to higher aggression levels, and does = aggression decrease if that number is exceeded? 5. Are battery cages really as bad for chickens as they would appear to = be from a human point of view? (I sure wouldn't want to be confined to = a battery cage, but do the chickens mind it that much?) =20 6. If a chicken escapes from a battery cage will it voluntarily return = to the cage to sleep, eat, lay eggs, etc.? In other words, does the = chicken think of the cage as home? I don't know much about chickens, and anytime I ask about housing I = often get a very emotional response, either for or against the cages. I = appreciate any information. =20 Thanks Rob Acorn --Boundary_(ID_8Z1P76WNFT0oTe3xt0bg0g) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi = Everyone,
I have several questions about housing = chickens. =20
1. What types of = environmental=20 enrichment are available for chickens in battery cages?  =
 
2. Do chickens ever = use the pecking=20 toys that are often placed in the cages, or are the toys really there = for the=20 benefit of concerned humans?  If they do use the toys, does it have = any=20 noticeable effect on the health or productivity of the = birds?
 
3. Is there a = specific housing=20 _density_ (in both cage and non-cage systems) that corresponds to higher = aggression levels, and if so, do aggression levels decrease if that = density is=20 exceeded?
 
4. Is there a = specific housing=20 _number_  (in both cage and non-cage systems) that corresponds to = higher=20 aggression levels, and does aggression decrease if that number is=20 exceeded?
 
5. Are battery cages really as bad = for chickens=20 as they would appear to be from a human point of view?  (I sure = wouldn't=20 want to be confined to a battery cage, but do the chickens mind it that=20 much?) 
 
6. If a chicken escapes from a = battery cage will=20 it voluntarily return to the cage to sleep, eat, lay eggs, etc.?  = In other=20 words, does the chicken think of the cage as home?
 
I don't know much about chickens, and = anytime I=20 ask about housing I often get a very emotional response, either for or = against=20 the cages.  I appreciate any = information. =20
 
Thanks
Rob Acorn
--Boundary_(ID_8Z1P76WNFT0oTe3xt0bg0g)-- From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 25-MAR-1999 22:03:01.86 To: IN%"MJVelardo@aol.com" "INTERNET:MJVelardo@aol.com", IN%"fentress@is.dal.ca" "John Fentress, Ph. D.", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com" CC: Subj: RE: FW: Danger Signal Frequencies. Message text written by INTERNET:MJVelardo@aol.com >If I am not mistaken (or exhibiting early lizardism, dotage or alzheimers), there is a small body of literature out there on just this sort of thing.= = I remember stumbling on to it maybe in the mid to late eighties...I cannot give you anything more specific than that except that I remember reading some articles about how certain sounds are definitely alarming and usually mim= ic those things found in nature that are dangerous. As an aside, there is a "gating theory" of schizophrenia...whereby it is thought that schizophrenics are not able to attenuate to (do not :"gate")= repetitive sounds and so the sounds begin to run together and become confusing, delusion-producing or alarming (hence the paranoia of some). Somehow, I bet this all fits together.< =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Me, too, and thanks for the encouragement. The danger signal thing -- I'm building a small collection of slides abou= t visual signals. Hollywood is clearly aware of these things and uses the information well in previews and ads and visuals during films. Yesterday = on my way to Manhattan I tapped my brake pedal before I noticed the Trooper car in the median, backed tight into a barrier, facing my way, and offeri= ng little visual contrast to the cement behind. I think my superior colliculus was alerted because the headlights looked like an eye. It could be -- anything could be with schizophrenia -- that automatic ala= rm systems and motor sequences are "scrambled." There's also a really hypothesis in Stevens & Price (but unfortunately not their own hypothesis= !) that schiz reflects a disconnect between dream states and being asleep. This is all fun stuff, probably more fun that tending to my progress note= s! Jim Brody Paul MacLean Festschrift BOSTON! 7/16-17/99 23 speakers (approx) including Karl Pribram contact Russ Gardner, rgj999@yahoo.com for details "Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values" John Price MD, Russ Gardner MD, John Fentress PhD, James Brody PhD 20th CAPE COD! Institute 7/19-23/1999 15 CME/CEU $455/$300 grad students & interns 610-948-5344 (info) 718-430-2307 (regist) www.cape.org/1999/price.html From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 26-MAR-1999 10:36:06.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Housing Chickens Hi Rob!!! I don't know if you remember me, but I worked with you on Marak's pig project out in the barn a few summers ago. I am going to pass some info to you - some is opinion, some is from literature and some from my research. I did a study on egg quality in cage vs floor housing systems and have experience caring for birds on the floor and in battery cages. I have also done some projects on nutritional pathology in caged layers and some of that work includes delving into the physiological consequences of standing on slanted wire floors without exercise or ability to move your body. > 1. What types of environmental enrichment are available for chickens in battery cages? I don't know what commercial items are available. I think environmental enrichment needs depend on the environment. For example, we have a few rooms of hens in battery cages but these rooms have people going in and out during the day. The birds appear much calmer than some battery caged birds and seem to attend to people's presence. I have used shiny, coloured paper that the birds love to shred. I would put it behind the battery cage (on the outside) and secured with metal. I suspect even cardborad with printing or coloured dots would suffice. My experience has been, if you put the paper or cardboard IN the cage, it quickly gets ripped to shreds. > 2. Do chickens ever use the pecking toys that are often placed in the cages, or are the toys really there for the benefit of concerned humans? If they do use the toys, does it have any noticeable e > fect on the health or productivity of the birds? A way to look at this is to ask "Is a bird without occupation a stressed bird?" We all know the negative impact on health and productivity (on any species) of chronic stress. > 5. Are battery cages really as bad for chickens as they would appear to be from a human point of view? (I sure wouldn't want to be confined to a battery cage, but do the chickens mind it that much? Differences I have found in floor housed chickens vs battery caged chickens: i) Battery caged chickens have more vocalizations that are interpreted as alarm calls, distress, etc. than floor housed chickens. This is increased in chickens moved from the floor to a cage. ii) Battery caged chickens do not appear to be aware that they are laying eggs vs floor-housed hens who have elaborate routines before laying. iii) Battery caged hens develop feet and leg problems from lack of movement and standing on slanted, wire floors. iv) Battery caged hens, despite adequate nutrition, cannot maintain bone strength and density because of the lack of opportunity to exercise. One reearcher here at the University of Guelph designed a battery cage that is larger than code but with perches. A simple opportunity like stepping up and down from a perch helps maintain bone health (step aerobics!!!) (The birds' behaviour appeared to be calmer with no distress vocalizations and less aggressive behaviours to humans and conspecifics despite 15 hour full light schedules). Because of poor bone density, caged birds probably suffer more when sent for processing. Removal from the cage often results in many broken bones and the struggle during hanging before stunning at the processors causes more damage. v) Caged birds are more aggressive to humans and conspecifics. vi) Cage birds > > 6. If a chicken escapes from a battery cage will it voluntarily return to the cage to sleep, eat, lay eggs, etc.? In other words, does the chicken think of the cage as home? Birds are territorial and I suspect a cage becomes a territory. In my study, where we changed birds between floor conditions and cage conditions, the birds struggled fiercely and vocalized distress calls when we tried to put them in cages. Birds removed from cages and put on the floor did extensive stretching and wing-flapping (about 2 hours). > > I don't know much about chickens, and anytime I ask about housing I often get a very emotional response, either for or against the cages. I appreciate any information. > I wonder if the emotive reaction of humans is in response to the behaviour of the chickens and the distress vocalizations? OR I wonder if humans who sit in front of a computer for 8 hours a day without moving and develop back and wrist problems are just empathizing? DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 28-MAR-1999 07:29:12.91 To: IN%"fentress@IS.Dal.Ca" "INTERNET:fentress@IS.Dal.Ca", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve" CC: IN%"paleopsych@paleopsych.org" Subj: Pink and Blue Message text written by INTERNET:fentress@IS.Dal.Ca >Its quite wonderful how, even on this site, we get into nature versus = nurture (or is it vice versa?). I always thought that culture = derived from biology, and then helped mold it - but I am naive. I am so naive I gave a student a project once, which is the point of = this note. The project was to use the local maternity ward to = examine early differences in male and female infants. Now there = would be biology, raw and simple. Ha! The student came back soon, with an unhappy look. This is her story = (which occurred quite a while back). Little boys were wrapped in = blue blankets; girls in pink. Blue blankets and pink blankets cry. = When blue blankets cried, the nurse would go over and tell them to = "shape up", or something like that. When pink blankets cried they = were cuddled. Day one! Differential culture rears its ugly head. = Differential cuddles, and cuddle expectations. Naughty nurture. But don't get carried away. Rhesus monkey mothers, without blankets, = treat little boy monkeys and little girl monkeys differently, from = day one. And genetic predispositions don't just work at birth; I = might well feel differently towards my daughters than my X does, in = part because of experiences all the way down the line, and in part = because she is not the same sex as I (thought I should explain that). I have few maternal "instincts". Female rats have them ("maternal instincts"). Rear them alone, breed = them, and they take care of their pups. But NOT if you rear them = with a collar that keeps them from grooming themselves. They then = don't groom the pups (part of maternal behavior). Re-balance = their endocrinology and "maternal genes" get hung on the line. Give = environmental stresses, and you can twiddle the endocrinology. Give = them different genes, and they respond differently to stresses. The = listing of tangles goes on and on and on and sometimes on a bit = further than that. Nature and nurture: ALWAYS the two will meet, = like it or not. There are many meeting places, however, and the = votes are not all in. Of course biology does not give a damn how you, or I feel about any = of this, or about anything (unless we get killed by stress or = foolishly aggressive, etc.). Culture, thank goodness, does. But my = feelings clash with yours, and so we can start a war. We have war = genes (i.e. without some genes we would not make war), but these = don't have to be activated in some silly reflex manner. I might = be more prone to war, thanks to carrying a "y" around. I might = be less prone to backstabbing (frontal stabbing is more fun and = proper; but perhaps I was just told that....). Etc. Seems like a tempest in a teapot. I am too old for the latter, so = will now go make some of the former. Please do not feel compelled to answer this. I am simply bemused. j.< =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I've had similar thoughts about Nat Angier (the lady who called us Evo Psychos and wanting to repress women) and Richard Wrangham. My thought is that women -- even without a Y gene -- also display Chimp Raids and War Parties. They, however, are more likely to use gossip, shunning, insult, tears, and cohesive teams to achieve a social death whi= ch can be -- a chimp alone is soon dead -- just as lethal as the immediate tactics employed by males. Resources are denied as are mating opportunities. Angier's book and NY Times piece were chimp raids. I watched her a bit = at the de Waal/Hrdy talks. She was quiet but scooted to the front afterward= s and merged into the center of the 12 or so folks standing up front. = Almost a replay of the "tattle to mom or the teacher" strategies used by little girls whether sisters or classmates in school. Despite the glories of female sensitivity and cooperation, the tactics ar= e illusory because they want to make us "like" being controlled. However,= gangs of little girls -- and big ones -- are dictatorial in regard to dress, speech, hobbies, and friends. "We won't LIKE you." They control= other girls (women) and indirectly, the males. After all, we guys spend= 12 years in a correctional facility known as public school -- mothers and= not the Devil make us do it but sometimes with abusive outcomes and metho= ds if they are labeled as nurturing. (The label itself a reflection of fema= le interests? To make us act more like them?) We guys (and some girls!) stabilize in self-directed programs in VoTech or in college where we can finally pursue our own interests and build our personal "rat's nest" of ideas and possessions consistent with our personal nature(s). There is an arms race between men and women because of conflicting interests. The ladies, however, are not naive or helpless. In stable groups they have a superiority because of greater language capability and= social skills. They use "fair" as a rallying cry and a weapon. Neither men nor women are particularly "nice" nor particulary "evil." Just "different," "coevolved," and mates in evolution's gambit called "humanity." Given the overlap of traits between men and women, I should not be surprised that girls also perform Raids. I watched one of my female cats= execute one this morning but against another female cat. Does an X gene contain all the same information as a Y and some other goodies the Y does= not? Seems likely. Also bemused on a Sunday morning -- = Jim Brody "Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values" John Price MD, Russ Gardner MD, John Fentress PhD, James Brody PhD 20th CAPE of Good COD Institute 7/19-23/1999 15 CME/CEU $455/$300 grad students & interns 610-948-5344 (info) 718-430-2307 (regist) www.cape.org/1999/price.html This course is a symbiosis of Price, Gardner, Fentress and memes assemble= d from Darwin, Kauffman, Barkley, & Plomin, stirred but not shaken, by me. Paul MacLean Festschrift BOSTON! 7/16-17/99 23 speakers (approx) including Karl Pribram contact Russ Gardner, rgj999@yahoo.com for details. From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 29-MAR-1999 03:04:10.80 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Housing Chickens Hi Deborah, Many thanks for your message and information re. housing laying hens. I am currently writing a paper in which one of the issues I am trying to address is the latest work on welfare in cages and welfare in free-range systems, so a couple of your points really caught my attention. It appears you have done some work on the effects of sloping cage floors. Could you please tell me where this is published, or supply details such as slope of floor, stocking density, group size, calcium levels, etc. Also your comment that caged birds are more aggressive than non-caged birds is rather different from my own experience. How did you measure aggression? Many thanks, Chris From: IN%"lirio@uol.com.br" 29-MAR-1999 03:09:02.08 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Housing Chickens Recebi sua mensagem. Assim que puder estarei respondendo seu e-mail Até mais Mauro Lantzman From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 29-MAR-1999 08:05:32.02 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Labelling welfare foods Dear Chantal Gaboury et al. > > I am not an expert on the subject, but I have heard from reasonably > > reliable sources that at least in some jurisdictions that "free range" when > > applied to chickens means only that the door to the 10,000 bird coop is open. > > In real life some of the chickens do go out sometimes, but certainly not all. > > I know not if this is true. Can anyone confirm or not. > > 1) I am also interested in the answer to this. Well, in Europe if you want to label eggs as 'free range' (or three other alternatives: semi-intensive, deep litter or perchery/barn) there are legal specifications. But I'm sure that in some other countries there are no legal limits on use of such terms. I was amused last time I was in Canada to hear that someone was marketing 'Range Free Eggs' which could, of course, mean either of two quite different possibilities. > 2) Also, here in Montreal, they market "grain fed chicken" and sell it > for more than regular chicken. What the heck do ordinary chickens eat?? > Is "grain fed" supposed to mean something else, i.e. that the chickens > are raise differently than regular chicken. Ordinary chickens eat mash. Presumably 'grain fed' ought to mean that they are fed at least some of their diet as whole grain, but you would have to check your local laws on that. > 3) Thirdly, is there a way of distinguishing between poultry raised for > poultry (broilers, I beleive?) and those laying hens (layers?) that are > too old to produce eggs, so they are sold as chicken? (I bought an > "economy pack" of chicken legs, one time, and almost all of the little > legs were broken around the ankle...I have trouble dealing with > that...). Spent laying hens are rarely sold as chicken meat, because they have very little meat on them and what there is is tough - they may go for soup or pet food or often they just go into landfills. (Although as it happens I've just come back from Zimbabwe, and they are sold (live) for consumption there). So I am sure that what you bought were broiler legs. I suppose they were economy precisely because they were broken (although it wouldn't be the 'ankles': the breaks would presumably be above the hock joint, the equivalent of our knee). I wouldn't know, though, whether the breaks were more likely before death, or after. Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies in Agriculture & Resource Economics Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh West Mains Road Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"DottieDais@aol.com" 30-MAR-1999 03:16:25.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Ethology list - modification requested. Is there anyway to indicate on the subject line that these emails are from the ethology list? With some of the odd titles I see, such as "mutilation", I'm hesitant to open them especially when I don't recognize the sender. It would be helpful if "ethology" were somewhere in the subject line. Is this possible? From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 30-MAR-1999 06:06:00.41 To: IN%"DottieDais@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Ethology list - modification requested. At 04:15 AM 3/30/99 -0500, DottieDais@aol.com wrote: >Is there anyway to indicate on the subject line that these emails are from the >ethology list? With some of the odd titles I see, such as "mutilation", I'm >hesitant to open them especially when I don't recognize the sender. It would >be helpful if "ethology" were somewhere in the subject line. Is this >possible? I have a mail program that filters my mail by sender. So that I know that these come from the A E list. I suppose that we could ask people to put Applied Ethology on posts. Vivian trying to help Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 30-MAR-1999 08:48:45.20 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Housing Chickens Hello Chris!!! Considering that your e-mail was sent January 1, 1904 I must apologize for being so tardy in replying. You know how it is - you get busy and time passes and before you know it it is the end of the century!!! > From: Chris Sherwin > To: Deborah McWilliams > Copies to: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Housing Chickens > Date sent: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 00:42:46 +0000 > It appears you have done some work on the effects of sloping > cage floors. Could you please tell me where this is published, or > supply details such as slope of floor, stocking density, group size, > calcium levels, etc. I have not done studies on the effects of sloping cage floors. However, I work and have worked with birds (layers) housed on the floor and in battery cages. This experience is the source of my anecdotal observations but there is also research available. I can get you the references but not until later next week. I am just finishing my master's and meeting some deadlines so time is at a premium. Computer searches would give you access to this material but you must look in the nutrition/welfare/housing areas. For example, nutrition is involved because diets are designed to compensate for the metabolic demand of egg laying. However, bone density and overall bone health is difficult to maintain without exercise (especially weight bearing exercise) even with the best diet formulation. Some research on the effect of sloping wire cage floors on feet and legs is rather dated but still applicable. Welfare is an issue for housing, health and, later, transportation because these birds are not fit to travel. > Also your comment that caged birds are more aggressive than > non-caged birds is rather different from my own experience. How > did you measure aggression? Please describe your experience. Again, my comments are anecdotal and experiential and resulted from research I did measuring egg quality in a cage vs floor system (I also work with cage and floor housed birds). For example, floor housed birds I have worked with have less fear of humans, approach humans and greet humans with a "coo coo" call. Caged birds screech, bang around and hit the cage sides with feet and wings. Most caged birds peck and bite human caretaker fingers but this behaviour may occur in 1 of 25 floor housed birds. Trimming toe nails and beaks of floor housed birds is a "piece of cake" . The same work on caged birds is stressful for all concerned and the escape behaviours of the birds in cages could result in damage to themselves and their caretaker. Try it. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 30-MAR-1999 10:11:47.09 To: IN%"Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com" CC: Subj: Nancy Segal, PhD, Dateline, TONITE!!! NBC, 10PM Colleagues, I understand that Nancy is scheduled to be on "Dateline," (NBC), tonight,= 10 PM, EST. = Nancy is an ASCAPian and HBES supporter; her new book, "Entwined Lives: Twins and What They Tell Us about Human Behavior" (16 chapters, 396 pp) i= s available and is considerably more substantial than earlier ones by Willi= am Wright or Lawrence Wright. Jim Brody From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 30-MAR-1999 12:15:57.14 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Mutilation (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:52:11 +0100 From: "D. M. Broom" To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca Subject: Mutilation Dear Joe Sorry to trouble you but please could you pass this on and put my address right on the list so that I can send messages direct. Don > >To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >From:dmb16@cam.ac.uk (D. M. Broom) >Subject:Mutilation > >Pierre le Neindre asks what mutilation means. > >This term is used in legislation in many countries and was the subject of >a lot of discussion in the Council of Europe Standing Committee of the >Convention on the Protection of Animals Kept for Farming Purposes. > >As Pierre and others know, I advise the Committee for I.S.A.E. I wrote a >definition which was modified slightly by lawyers and is now used in >Recommendations. It is supposed to cover castration, beak-trimming, >tail-docking etc. > >"For the purposes of this Recommendation, "mutilation" means a procedure >carried out for other than therapeutic purposes and resulting in damage to >or the loss of a sensitive part of the body or the alteration of bone >structure, or causing a significant amount of pain or distress." > > This would include all removal of bone, whether or not the tissue was >sensitive, and making a hole in an animal so as to cause pain or distress >even if it was not clear that tissue was, in law, damaged or lost. >However, we did have some debate about whether a procedure could cause >pain or distress but not be a mutilation. > >A better definition would be welcome. > >Don Broom > > Professor D.M.Broom, Animal Welfare and Human-Animal Interactions Group, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge, Cambridge CB3 0ES, U.K. Telephone:44 (0)1223 337697.Fax:44 (0)1223 337610. From: IN%"JSWANSON@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" 30-MAR-1999 16:03:31.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE Membership Dear ISAE Members, I am posting this message to the list with hope that the applicable members will see this message and respond. I have received three subscription payments from banks that had no name identification for the ISAE member. One payment was issued from the UBS AG Bank, Stamford CT Branch. The payment was for AABS renewal, the amount paid was in USD (I can not accept this check in USD but I need a name in order to return it with instructions for appropriate payment). The second payment was a check issued by Massey University (New Zealand) for membership renewal and AABS renewal. Finally a bank draft from Norges Landbrukshogskole was credited to our ISAE account, again no name was identified with this payment. If you recognize any of the payments as your own please contact me as soon as possible to help update your subscription status and clear our file. Thank you for your assistance. Janice Swanson ISAE Membership Secretary jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu From: IN%"Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch" "Beat Wechsler" 30-MAR-1999 23:21:34.79 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: CONGRESS ON APPLIED ETHOLOGY 1999, Freiburg Call for papers GERMAN VETERINARY SOCIETY - SECTION OF APPLIED ETHOLOGY, 31st INTERNATIONAL CONGRESS ON APPLIED ETHOLOGY 1999, FREIBURG/GERMANY, 18 - 20 NOVEMBER 1999. The programme of the 1999 meeting will include sessions on the following to= pics: 1) SOCIAL BEHAVIOUR Why is social behaviour important to animals in captivity? Which social = behaviour/structure is typical for a given species? Which is the optimal gr= oup = size/structure? What problems do sick animals face in social groups? 2) TECHNICAL INNOVATIONS AND ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR What are the consequences of technical innovations on animal behaviour and = welfare? How do animals cope with technical facilities in their housing sys= tem? 3) ANIMAL FEELINGS How can we assess emotional states in animals? Are there new concepts on = animal feelings? 4) FREE PAPERS Preferred are innovative contributions on the behaviour of domestic/captive= = animals and animal husbandry. There will be a brief meeting of the ISAE-Regional-Group West Central Europ= e at = the congress. CALL FOR PAPERS: Abstracts in German or English must include topic, title, author(s) and aff= iliation, and = should contain sufficient information on objectives, methods, sample size, = results, = conclusions and implications of the study. DEADLINE for the submission of abstracts for oral presentations (15 min = presentation and 15 min discussion, posters are not accepted) is 31 MAY 199= 9. = Abstracts (one page, no figures/tables/references) should be sent to: Dr. U. Pollmann Deutsche Vet.-Med. Gesellschaft Am Moosweiher 2 D- 79108 Freiburg Germany The congress committee will select approx. 25 contributions based on the = information provided in the abstracts. Studies that have already been publi= shed will = not be considered. Authors will be informed about acceptance or rejection o= f their = offers in September 1999, along with a provisional programme and informatio= n = about registration. The congress fee will be DM 100 for those giving an ora= l = presentation and DM 150 for other participants. Following the congress, all= = accepted contributions will be published (approx. 10 pages for each paper, = in = German or English) in a conference report by KTBL/DVG, Darmstadt, Germany. For further information please contact Dr. U. Pollmann Phone:++49-761-1502-287, FAX:++49-761-1502-299, e-mail: pollmann@thi.cvuafr.bwl.de. --------------------------------------------------------------- Beat Wechsler Swiss Federal Veterinary Office = Centre for proper housing of ruminants and pigs CH-8356 Taenikon - Switzerland SMTP: Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch = X.400: G=3DBeat;S=3DWechsler;O=3Dfat;A=3Dadmin;C=3Dch FAX: ++41 52 365 11 90 = Phone: ++41 52 368 31 31 From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 31-MAR-1999 02:38:18.73 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Housing Chickens Dear Deborah, Many thanks for taking the time to reply. It appears this was a case of mistaken identity. I envisaged from the tone of your original comments that these were statements of scientific fact which had been subject to scientific peer review. Because of the wide range of backgrounds on this bulletin board, perhaps we should all attempt to develop a system whereby we let the reader know whether statements are opinion, based on experience, or published findings developed from rigorous experimental technique. By the way, I think many people would believe your description of 'aggression' behaviour in poultry is more similar to 'fearfulness' Best wishes, Chris ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"jcox@netcomuk.co.uk" "jcox" 31-MAR-1999 03:19:16.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Fish - killing/death Dear colleagues, Your advice on the enquiry below would be greatly appreciated. With Kind Regards, Janice Cox ~~~~~~~ HOW DOES A FISH DIE? dear collegues I am working for a swiss farm animal protection organization (kag, st. gallen). I also run some private animal protection projects. one of these projects has as its goal a label for fish produced in a way most respectful towards the animals and the natural ressources. we decided to start with fish from swiss lakes (in switzerland, at about 300 families still live from fishing, with an average catch per day of let's say 20-30 kg). our provisional label rules say that fish has to be killed individually as soon as the net is taken off the water. we think that this will prove to be - besides better freshness and greater sustainability - a strong argument for swiss fishers who suffer under importation of much cheaper (sea) fish. but only few fishers are ready to sign such a prescription (even if weekend by some exceptions, like big catches or stormy weather). most of the fishers say that killing fish right after taking them out of the net is either impossible in most of the cases - or not necessary at all, because fish die quite differently than farm animals (i. e. they suppose it to be normal for a fish to get swallowed lively or the starve beacuase of lack of water - and thus they assume it to be "natural" that a fish starves conciously once taken off the water). Advice welcome - I am not asking you to know your personal opinion (we will ask for that by means of a consumer^s opinion poll) - I am looking round for biological and ethological well based answers to the question: WHAT IS THE NATURAL WAY A FISH DIES - AND WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR THE SETTING UP OF LABEL RULES? thank you very much for all hints, sincerely heinzpeter studer --------------------------------- billo heinzpeter studer tschudistr. 13, ch-9000 st.gallen fon + fax: +71/223 23 03 e-mail: communicum@access.ch buero (kag): fon: +71/222 18 18 fax: +71/223 13 37 e-mail: kagfreiland@paus.ch From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 31-MAR-1999 09:29:08.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Housing Chickens Hi again Chris!!! > It appears this was a case of mistaken identity. I envisaged from the > tone of your original comments that these were statements of scientific > fact which had been subject to scientific peer review. My statements are usually prefaced with "in my opinion" and "my experience". Most scientific "facts" often result from investigation into anecdotal evidence. I have found that most people who express their opinions on this listserv are very good at identifying it as an opinion, experience, etc.. > By the way, I think many people would believe your description of > 'aggression' behaviour in poultry is more similar to 'fearfulness' The term "aggressive behaviour" describes the behaviour and not the motivation. As you know, extensive study would have to be done to determine the motivation of the behaviour. Ciao!! DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"jgardner@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Jennifer Gardner" 31-MAR-1999 09:59:08.52 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sequential analysis Hi, I am having a very difficult time locating applied papers that have used sequential analysis for determining intra-individual sequences of behaviours. I have found one paper by Wechsler and Bachmann (1997). A sequential analysis of eliminative behaviour in domestic pigs, but have not been able to find any others. If anyone knows of any other references I would greatly appreciate the help. Thanks, Jennifer From: IN%"drogers@zoo.uvm.edu" 31-MAR-1999 10:22:33.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Taildocking in cattle A student in my Animal Welfare class is researching welfare-related aspects of taildocking in dairy cattle. She has found a variety of literature on the topic. She is interested in learning of recent or ongoing research on this topic and in making contact with people who are knowledgeable about it. Any leads, references, or suggestions would be appreciated. (Please respond directly to me at drogers@zoo.uvm.edu) Thank you on behalf of this student ... David L. Rogers Dept Animal Sciences University of Vermont