From: IN%"ajn1000@cus.cam.ac.uk" "A.J. Nimon" 1-MAY-1995 07:27:40.62 To: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" "D.B. Cameron" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Sexual Harassment and Censorship Dear D.B. Cameron I do believe that W. Ray Stricklin's stance is appropriate. Supposedly humourous references to female sexual anatomy on the internet are not intended by these men for everyone, but by these men for other men. It is up to the intended recipients to reject such comments. It is not a question of anyone "allowing" women to join the network. Its a question of politeness. Yours sincerely, Amanda Nimon. From: IN%"marcus.hutber@bbsrc.ac.uk" "HUTBER" 1-MAY-1995 07:34:39.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: British vet.'s rather large faux pas.... Dear debaters, When the 'British vet' initially deposited his insensitive material onto applied-ethology, it seemed that the retribution was well deserved. This individual appears to be distinctly lacking in admiration or respect for the fairer sex. If he's married or has children, his error is compounded, and his family (if enlightened) could achieve far more than sensorship: if he's not, then perhaps he needs to get married quickly..... However, the story comes to mind of the Sunday preacher who rose to the pulpit and gave a hugely motivating and rallying sermon, and as he reached the pinnacle of his talk a plate was passed around the congregation for contributions to the cause. the plate filled up and they had to send a second one round, and even a third. When the preacher saw what was happening he was greatly encouraged and thought he'd make the most of this situation, because it was important and the opportunity may never arise again; but as he continued to speak, the donations began to diminish, and pretty soon people began taking money back out of the plate. In fact the congregation itself began to diminish and when he did finally step down, there was only one old lady left in the front row - and she was deaf: they never did find the plates..... I hope the debate goes well, because unfortunately I'll shortly be one of the unsubscribers who leaves out of the back door..... Good luck. Marcus Hutber From: IN%"SEBM@lab0.vet.ed.ac.uk" "Sebastian McBride & Co." 1-MAY-1995 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Weaving in horses "From the horse's mouth"! Dear All, Colleagues have alerted me to recent network broadcasts on stereotypies in horses; weaving in particular. I find that I have been mentioned and unfortunately misquoted, so have asked Sebastian to allow me to hijack his channel for a moment to 'set the record straight'. This is a 'one - off' message, as I am far too busy (doing good ole fashioned research/science, writing papers/books, seeing cases, teaching etc etc) to spend time waffling here! I already receive far too many unsolicited enquires via the Royal mail, phone and Fax and do not want yet another access channel. Sorry folks! (see below if you really wish to contact me directly for info/advice etc.) My personal interpretation of the currently available published scientific literature on stereotypies, including that in the horse, is that environment and management are critical for the expression of these behaviour patterns. Please note that the opinions of my students (eg Seb) do not necessarily reflect mine - we still believe in intellectual freedom in Scotland! My interpretation of published work is SUPPORTED in my opinion, by recent work done by Jane Henderson and myself as a UFAW vacation project last summer investigating genetic susceptibility to stereotypies in Przewalski horses. On-going collaborative work looking at markers here and previous such work evaluating behavioural and physiological indicators of susceptibility is in preparation for publication and is unlikely to be available to equine practitioners (eg as part of pre-purchase exam requirements) until we have built up a larger date bank to tighten the probability ranges. Should the physiological mechanism underlying phenotyic expression in genetically susceptible individuals be shown by the results of research in progress to be the same in the horse as in other species where this is known, as indicated by our preliminary findings, then we will have further evidence to clarify the role of environment in precipitation of stereotypic behaviour patterns and indeed to clarify the role of stereotypies in welfare assessement. This will also tie in the neuropharmacological data in the horse and other species very nicely. As one of, dare I say it, the 'earlier' members of 'the Edinburgh school' of scientists (having done my PhD with Prof Wood-Gush here, looking at the effects of housing on the behaviour (incl stereotypies) of sheep, many moons ago when SCAWS was not even a Twinkle in his eye!) , working on stereotypies and interested in applying this to welfare assessement, I am well aware of the difficulties created by the unscientific waffle historically induced by these issues. I have suggested at a variety of conferences/seminars and in various publications (eg presented by invitation of the Swiss Veterinary Association the Prezwalski work at the International congress on Genetics and Disease in the Horse in Interlaken last year, summaries due in EVJ soon, and full report with UFAW) that the results of this little study support the view that stereotypies are indicative of environmental inadaquacy, ie a providing specific frustrations which are relevant to the population as a whole, not only those individuals performing the stereotypy. I regard these horses as extremely useful 'litmus paper' which could be used to experimentally evaluate all kinds of aspects of environments and management practices. Indeed, we have carried out 3 years worth of controlled time-budget studies (personally notching up thousands of hours of oserving and recording the behaviour of domestic horses in various enviroments) investigating this, in the usual scientific way of changing one very specific factor only at a time, in a series of long-term crossover studies. The punch-line I use for student talks and lay audiences is that I interpret our results to suggest that these horses are not the 'depraved delinquents' the colloquial term 'stable vices suggests they were traditionally regarded, but rather 'sensitive souls' who are telling us that, despite all the money spent and best intentions of horse owners, there is still something wrong with their environment. Another analogy I use to try to get this point across, and when explaining the ethical difficulties which arise if selective breeding is advocated as a method of dealing with stereotypies in the horse industry ,is that of an inadequate restaurant and that these are the individuals who have what it takes to complain about the food. Removing them leaves us without an easily observable indicator of the quality of the cooking! Selective breeding would also neither be popular nor practical as we can calculate a very high proportion of horses are likely to be carriers and the physiological differences they inherit which makes them more likely to show stereotyic behaviour in 'typical' stabling, are also likely to improve athletic performance. Many of the most highly prized horses currently standing at stud have at least one stereotypy! It is my opinion, based on both published work and our own recent not yet published data, that if sufficiently frustrated or aroused, any horse would eventually respond with a stereotypy. The mechanism of expression of genotypically susceptible horses appears to be a quantitative diference in certain dopaminergic receptor sites and their relative activity in the mid-brain, eg straitum nigra, producing individuals which perform steretypies when behaviour patterns are frustrated in specific ways at the level found in 'typical' housing/management systems. We are already applying our recent research to clinical cases here, eg modifying the behaviour of individual horses and advising owners on relevant environment/management changes required. What we now understand of the underlying neurophysiology, has also been successfully applied here at the RDSVS eg to pharmacologically eliminate (note not block) stereotypies arising from anaesthetic drugs required and causing physical trauma after surgery (for other reasons) , without interfering with pain control. Much of the recent research into specific causal factors is currently being applied to 'treatment' of individual horses referred with a stereotypy causing physical injury to the horse concerned and to written recommendations for horse housing and management systems (eg UFAW manual and other Codes of Practice for equines). There is evidence in the published horse literature that different stereotypies have different underlying neurophysiology and that different specific factors affect performance of different stereotypies. It has been my experience in manipulating the behaviour of weaving horses in particular, that it is social factors which are og greatest importance here, not physical restriction . For example, in one case the horse weaves when in a loose-box , but not when in a tie-stall in the same building (in which there is ample room , tether length to actually weave and no other interference preventing weaving), and in another current case of mine, weaving to the point of precipitating rhabdomyolysis occurs when particular companions are removed from the very large field in which this horse is kept. (This is supported by some of our recent experimental studies, as yet unpublished and see also Marsden 1993 Anim Prod ). Please beware (as I am sure you were all told in your first stats lecture on correlation) of the dangers of inferring cause and effect from significant correlations in survey data. Such surveys as recently done at Bristol are interesting and very useful in other ways, but should not be misinterpreted to suggest that feeding hay will cause stereotypies! I would like to highlight instead, the part of the Bristol work which I feel is more useful here which was reported along with the survey data in EVJ recently, showing that 'wind-sucking' in horses does not involve actual swallowing of air, another "fact" found in many horse husbandry texts now shown by Bristol team to be a "myth" - well done Paul and Co! This is the major reason horse owners give me for wishing to prevent this stereotypy, worried that it causes colic or interferes with feed satiety, causing poor condition. I am so tired of telling people that although this idea is written into many horse husbandry books, there is no scientific evidence showing cause and effect in this way. Indeed, should such an association be found, it is more likely that the factors predisposing the horse to GI tract disorders which can lead to flatulent colic and poor condition also predispose the horse to stereotypy. I have often thought of having a badge produced to say "There is absolutely no scientific evidence that 'wind-sucking' causes stomachs to bloat with air and lead to colic/poor condition" in this way, which I would wear right alongside the one which states that "There is absolutely no scientific evidence that horses copy cribbers"! Indeed, wrt latter, there are at least two published studies showing that horses do not learn other tasks by observation in this way. Social isolation and physical means of prevention here are in my experience counter-productive and in my opinion likely to cause futher frustration, and give rise to welfare concern. The results of on-going work (towards Seb's PhD) in this area should be available soon. Which reminds me - S C-D may like to know that the ansers to many of her 'rhetorical' questions are YES, as the Household Cavalry provides a remarkably uniform (excuse the pun) environment, largely due to military tradition, practicalities of managing a large number of horses with minimum manpower, morale and overall ffectiveness, and strict adherence to instructions and protocols etc. They are all taught to ride by the same instructor in the required specialised way, and they are also trained to carry out their husbandry duties according to various supervised drills, co-ordinated by bugles blowing! While there are some horses doing specialized jobs eg the school horses, the musical ride, display and competition teams, Drum, Trumpeter's and Officer's chargers, these were for that very reason not included in the time-budget work aiming to investigate various factors affecting the behaviour patterns of the majority of these horses. We have literally thousands of hours of video-tape, two BSc theses and one DVM&S thesis to support this! (publications in process!) It may also be of interest that the time-budgets, diurnal rhythm etc of these horses do not differ significantly from that of many of the reported studies of feral horses apart from reproductive behaviour during the summertime, as many are geldings, and stallions are rare. It provides one of the very best systems I have ever come across from the welfare point of view, and if I had to be a horse, I would join the Army! Please, dear fellow behaviour scientists, be careful not to assume that because you have not personally come across specific references that they do not exist, eg there are earlier Spanish and Japanese studies, published in academic journals, on the inheritance of stereotypies in horses (of which I have a translation if anyone is particularly interested) or, because some people waffle in an unscientific manner on a particular topic, that others may not be busy working away in the traditional scientific manner to enable them to offer sound experimental evidence and informed opinion ! I do appreciate that by choosing not to become involved in Internet communications I run the risk of being rampantly misquoted and appearing not to wish to offer you my assistance with appropriate reference material etc. ! However, a couple of people did very kindly suggest that anyone interested should contact me directly. This should not be difficult, as I am listed in all the usual places/registers, including SCAWS, British Equestrian Directory, Index Current Equine research GB and Ireland, UK Register of Expert Witnesses (Horse behaviour, including stereotypies, housing, handling and welfare) etc etc. I offer consultancy services (behaviour, housing design and welfare assessement) attatched to our Dept Vet Clinical Studies which distributes its own promotional literature, and am regularly asked for advice by organisations such as RSPCA, British Horse Society , International League for the Protection of Horses and the National Equine Training Trust . I also teach the 'horse' section on the MSc Applied Animal Behaviour and Welfare course here at Edinburgh and a number of CPD courses for equine practitioners on various aspects of horse behaviour and welfare, including the RCVS required course for Veterinarians wishing to become licensed as Inspectors of Riding Establishments. I present material to my scientific colleagues at conferences and seminars throughout the world, including talks to Vets/horse breeders and owners etc. (eg. just back from trip including New Zealand, Australia, Canada and USA). UFAW asked me to write the chapter on Horses for the next edition of their Farm Animal Management Handbook, which will include horses for the first time this year, and Balliere Tyndall have commissioned a textbook on 'The Diagnosis and Treatment of Behaviour Problems in the Horse' due in October, etc etc! I also keep my contacts in practical equitation (having been lucky enough to have lived and worked with horses all my life and represented both my country and my University in top level competition) as a BHS qualified riding instructor, teaching evenings and week-ends! So - Sorry for the "CV" , but I really do feel that above (and the mountain of unansered mail on my desk) illustrates that, rather than hiding in an 'ivory tower', I am quite accessible enough already ! I am really sorry, dearest overseas colleagues, but this experience has only heartened my resolve to avoid an Email number, never mind joining the 'applied ethology network'! I do not intend to read/reply to any further correspondence via this medium ! However, running the risk of upsetting my dear chums who suggest that I should learn to "just say no" (!) ,I will be only too happy to deal with specific enquiries in the 'good ole fashioned way' and can be contacted by telephone on 0/131 650 6222 (UK) or Fax 0/131 650 6588 or by writing to the Department of Veterinary Clinical Studies, Vet Field Station, Easter Bush, Roslin, Midlothian, Scotland UK , EH25 9RG. Please Please Please do not clog up Seb's machine with replies to this , nor use my offer as a quick and easy way of doing a literature review! I can offer Per Jensen specific assistance, should he wish, as I have testified as an expert witness in similar cases. The jist of my testimoney is that it is indeed possible for a horse which has never performed a sterotypy in one environment to immediately do so in a different environment, and that many of the changes which occur on being sold are in themselves causal factors in the development of these behaviour patterns. In my experience this results in the case being settled for the vendor, where the purchasor cannot prove to the court that the horse had performed the stereotypy in question prior to the sale and, most importantly, that this was known to the vendor. With respect to Swedish law in these matters, I would like to point out that it is my understanding that some stereotypies are on the 'secondary hit list' of inherited disorders whereby it is a criminal offence to breed from such a horse. A stallion can be included on the register to breed only if performance and progeny performance are exceptional. As I am by no means an expert in Swedish law, I would like to suggest that you contact Goran Dalin or Jan Philipsson at the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences and Swedish Horse Board, Uppsala for further up-to-date info and the appropriate assistance. Sorry for the length of my 'broadcast', as someone once said "I didn't have the time to write you a shorter one!" To summarise, dear colleagues, please check your sources, do a thorough Lit. review before pronouncing on the 'state of the Art' and do remember that this is a public access channel! How about easing up on the blether and getting on with some real work! Thank-you and Good-night! From: IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu" 1-MAY-1995 17:16:00.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Weaving in horses An innocent bystander: "Who was that strange, masked rider?" Tonto: "I dunno. He never signs his name!" From: IN%"Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se" 2-MAY-1995 03:04:44.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Netiquette and Weaving in horses Dear all, An interesting mail (not for its scientific contents) has reached us all. Someone, anonymous, hiding under the address of Seb McBride, obviously not being Seb McBride, has decided in divine mercy to enlighten our dark souls. Among other things, this mysterious appearance wrote: > "From the horse's mouth"! > > >This is a 'one - off' message, as I am far too busy (doing good ole >fashioned research/science, writing papers/books, seeing cases, teaching etc >etc) to spend >time waffling here! I already receive far too many unsolicited >enquires via the Royal mail, phone and Fax and do not want yet another >access channel. Sorry folks! (see below if you really wish to contact >me directly for info/advice etc.) > Ahh...at last. I'm going to hear the truth right from the merciful fingers of no one less than...??? I wait. I wait. I wait. > Please beware (as I am sure you were all told in your >first stats lecture on correlation) of the dangers of inferring cause >and effect from significant correlations in survey data. Halleluja!! My soul is filled of divine 'info/advice etc'. >but this experience has only heartened my resolve to avoid an Email >number, never mind joining the 'applied ethology network'! I do not intend >to read/reply to any >further correspondence via this medium ! It is him! It must be him!! Finally he has shown himself again, and only for once, to enlighten me!!! > >Please Please Please do not clog up Seb's machine with replies to this , nor >use my offer as a quick and easy way of doing a literature review! > >I can offer Per Jensen specific assistance, should he wish, as I have >testified as an >expert witness in similar cases. Yes, yes, yes!!! Specific assistance!! Halleluja! As I am >by no means an expert in Swedish law, I would like to suggest that >you contact Goran Dalin or Jan Philipsson at the Swedish University >of Agricultural Sciences and Swedish Horse Board, Uppsala for >further up-to-date info and the appropriate assistance. > (Must be the priests - I know these guys, they don't appear like priests when I talk to them, but since HE says so, they must be!) > >How about easing up on the blether and getting on with some real >work! > >Thank-you and Good-night! > > Darkness laid its shadow over us again. For a short period we experienced the REAL thing. Thank you for your mercy, whoever you are (I have my guesses - someone else once showed up once, told us the WORD and left us again. He whom I think of also is not accessible for direct communication, because he is too busy, but he can be reached if you believe! He whom I think of also have priests who help to interpret the law.) Now, SERIOUSLY. I feel really offended by messages of this kind. Some things in the mail may be worth considering, but when delivered in such a manner, in serves absolutely no purpose on this medium. Seb, and others: Don't allow anyone (except possibly the real HIM, if you get in touch) to hijack your email. This medium is for chatty and rapid exchange of ideas. Just as the anonymous contributor, I (and the rest of the gang on this network) are available on snail-mail and read journals. People who think that is the only possible way of communicating should not clog this network. And it's very irritating that this message is not being read by whoever-he(she?)-is. But Seb - maybe you can make a print-out of this, put it in an envelope and place it in whoever-he(she?)-is's snail-mail box, so at least the message gets through to the one it concerns. For the rest of you out there - think before you let anyone enter the network without having to bear the responsibilities for their junk. Per ******************************************************************* Per Jensen Professor of Ethology __/\______________9 Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences,\ o I Department of Animal Hygiene, \- I Section of Ethology \_______________I SKARA, SWEDEN /\ /\ E-mail: Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se / \ / \ ******************************************************************* From: IN%"APN6MAV@SOUTH-01.NOVELL.LEEDS.ac.uk" "VARLEY M.A." 2-MAY-1995 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Horse Weaving: Edinburgh 'Expert' with no Name Dear Sebastian Whilst not wishing to doubt the wisdom of the guy/girl using your e-mail system with regard to weaving in horses and ignoring the rather arrogant tones; who the devill was the author???????? He/She is obviously too busy writing books/papers/research/reports to learn modern means of communication. Mike Varley Dr Mike Varley Animal Physiology and Nutrition University of Leeds, Leeds, England Tel Int + 44 113 233 3062 Fax Int + 44 113 233 3072 Fax/Teleph. Home Int + 44 1937 845541 Mobile 0860 102531 e-mail apn6mav@leeds.ac.uk From: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 2-MAY-1995 04:23:10.73 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: The Lone Ranger unmasked Dear All For those who don't know, the unsigned comments on stereotypies in horses were from Debbie Marsden. I got back from a week away yesterday and had to wade through an astonishing quantity of stuff which was not on applied ethology. I resisted adding my own comment because I didn't want to extend the discussion, but since I am sending the above message I would just like to remind others of what is generally recognised in netiquette - the complete lack of 'tone' in email messages. Per has just described someone else's message as arrogant, but some of his messages could be seen as arrogant by someone who didn't know him. Jeff Rushen's 'both feet first' approach could inhibit quite a lot of people from sticking their necks out (how's that for a mixed metaphor?). And indeed, people who don't know Per and Jeff may well think from their exchanges that they hate each other. Both senders and readers should remember this. Having said this, ebullient messages and out-of-the- mainstream ideas enliven the network. Given all this I think that the recent comments on one individual have been 'over the top'. I too have disliked some of his contributions, but I have disliked some from other contributors too, and some of his other contributions have been interesting. Here's a more relevant question on use of language. What do people think about use of 'companion animal' instead of 'pet'? The more I think about it, the more I believe that the substitution is irrelevant, except in that it makes people think about what they are saying. In other words, the terms mean the same thing, and it is still possible to talk about MY companion animal with all the implications of OWNING animals, just as I can talk about MY pet. Antony Podberscek wrote recently that use of 'companion animal' was simply 'politically correct' and did not change underlying attitudes. I think he is wrong insofar as using a new term may cause you to examine your attitudes and perhaps change them, but in this specific case, he may be right in that the new term doesn't actually convey any different meaning. How important is language in other areas of our interactions with animals? Mike Appleby From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "ROBIN E WALKER" 2-MAY-1995 07:29:24.46 To: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: I'm Sorry I think this last storm might be my fault. I was praying for a spot of rain! From: IN%"alp18@cus.cam.ac.uk" 2-MAY-1995 07:55:18.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Say what? Dear readers, Mike Appleby has unfortunately misrepresented some of my thoughts on 'pets', 'companion animals' and political correctness. I originally made my comments in the editorial for the ISAZ newsletter (No.8) and they were in relation to a comment I have heard many times; that both terms, 'pet' and 'companion animal' are direspectful. My thoughts are that both terms are both perfectly fine. Choosing a new, politically correct term such as,'non-human other' would be useless - new words/terms don't automatically cancel out ones truth beliefs and feelings. The words we use do not necessarily represent our true selves - indeed, the whole thrust of political correctness is to make us *appear* to be all round nice people. I agree with Mike (yikes!) that new words may make us think about the issues at hand, but changing beliefs and attitudes just doesn't happen so simply. Humans are inherently discriminatory (with or without the PC handbook). This discussion should be occurring on the Anthrozoology network (but it isn't up and running yet). And Mike......I forgive you. Anthony Podberscek ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Anthony L. Podberscek Could there really be another? University of Cambridge Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine Madingley Road Cambridge CB3 OES UK ph: (01223) 33 0846 fax: (01223) 33 0886 e-mail: alp18@cus.cam.ac.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu" 2-MAY-1995 08:36:29.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: companion animals For Mike and others: I was obliged some years ago to address this question about the usefulness of the term companion animals when editing a volume for OUP called "Companion Animals in Society" (1988). The Working Party for whom I was acting as rapporteaur eventually concluded that the word "pet" covered a multitude of sins, including animals kept purely for ornamental, recreational, or status purposes, and that it WAS useful to have a separate category to cover pets kept primarily for the purpose of providing their owners with companionship. Companion animal is therefore a category of use, just like meat animal, research animal, game animal, fur animal, etc. The matter of political correctness never entered into our discussions. The reason we felt the category was needed was to differentiate a particularly unique kind of human-animal relationship in which economic considerations are subordinate to social and emotional factors. In short, people regard and treat these animals differently, and we needed a term to express that difference. The term 'pet' can still be used, and I still use it, as long as it is understood that, say, a tropical fish in an aquarium probably occupies a very different role in its owner's life from the cat which sleeps on his bed, has a personal name, a private doctor, and various other special perks. Both are pets in the broad sense, but only one qualifies for companion animal status. All of this is discussed at much greater length in the volume mentioned above, pp. 3-10. For those who want to read the original, the listed author(s) is either Council for Science and Society, or Soulsby, L & Serpell, J., depending on the library. James Serpell serpell@pobox.upenn.edu From: IN%"GREENBER%TWSUVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU" 2-MAY-1995 10:59:19.20 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: The hardest part about reading undergraduate term papers is doing the research to determine where they copied them from. I am in such a circumstance and have identified a possible source as "The Veterinarian's Encyclopedia of Animal Behavior" which is checked out of our library by a student. If someone on the net has this book, is there an entry in it titled "Animal mate selection." Could you fax me a few pages of it? Thank you very much. Gary Greenberg Department of Psychology Wichita State University Wichita, Kansas 67260 tel. 316-689-3823 fax. 316-689-3086 e-mail GREENBER @ TWSUVM.UC.TWSU.EDU From: IN%"REPRO@nbc.upenn.edu" 2-MAY-1995 13:17:26.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Veterinary Encyclopedia of Animal Behavior I have a copy of the Veterinary Encyclopedia of Animal Behavior. I find no listing for "Animal Mate Selection" or "Mate Selection". I also have The Oxford Companion to Animal Behavior. It has a long entry on Mate Selection. If you send your Fax number, I can fax you the article. Sue McDonnell New Bolton Center Univ PA Vet School 610-444-5800 Fax 444-0829 Repro@NBC.UPENN.EDU From: IN%"BILLINGS@AESOP.RUTGERS.EDU" 2-MAY-1995 19:08:29.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: goat behavior While conducting observations of goat sexual behavior, I recently observed a behavior I haven't seen before and was wondering if anyone out there has seen this and in what context. Following a prolonged period of repeated rear-up head butts initiated by a female toward the male, the male held the female's foreleg (just above the knee) in his mouth. He held that position for approximately 30 seconds and in only one instance of this behavior did the female appear to try to move away. The female's foreleg was not lifted off the ground. Usually this was followed by the female continuing to rear-up toward the male, but in one case was followed by the female initiating an anogenital sniff of the male. Has anyone else seen this behavior...or heard of it? Did it occur in the same context? Thanks, Heather Billings billings@aesop.rutgers.edu From: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 3-MAY-1995 08:15:59.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Euphemisms etc. Forwarded with permission From: JANICE SWANSON Organization: KSU ESARP and AG Dear Mike, I think language is very important, and depending on what one wants to accomplish, it can be used in a variety of ways. A friend of mine and I recently criticized the use of the term " harvest" for the slaughter of animals. In this case a Fair Board Committee in a particular state had recommended the deletion of the term slaughter and to use the term harvest in its place in its Fair book. My objection to this is that it obscures what really happens to the animal, especially to the public. However in wildlife circles the use of the term harvest has seems to be the status quo. We see similar examples in using "tail trimming" instead of tail docking. I do not suggest we use gross, grisly terminology but that we maintain some level of accuracy and reality when making reference to a procedure, an animal, etc. Recently during a review of a research protocol through our campus animal care and use committee, we came upon the term "digital impression" for an identification procedure to be used on wild mice. Many members of the committee did not recognize that the researcher was toe clipping the mice. What a marvelous example of obscuratism. Yet another example, suggested by a colleague, was to stop using the term humane. He believe it leads to the humanizing of animals. The fear in this case is that we will encourage people to treat animals like or will begin to think of animals as human. He readily gives this advice to farm groups. I disagree with his interpretation and application of humane. Some suggest that this softens the blow to a public who is ignorant of what we do and why we do it. Although this may be the good intentions of a few, I believe its a more deliberate attempt to make folks more ignorant. And I also believe it eventually catches up to us when people suddenly discover what actually happens. No wonder researcher, producers, etc. get branded as less than truthful. In the US the term animal well-being has been substituted for animal welfare. Well-being having a more acceptable scientific air about it than welfare which conjures up scenes of rich little old "persons' in tennis shoes or "humaniacs". So language has much to do with our perceptions, relations and management etc. of animals. Janice Swanson P.S. Are we back on track? From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 3-MAY-1995 08:55:04.02 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Pet Language Hates You see this quite a bit in older papers and books, but it still happens occasionally. People refering to nonhuman animals as "infrahuman" or sometimes even "subhuman". It bugs me. Also when someone writes something like "a dog is about as intelligent as a ten month old human". (or whatever species/age:human comparison suits their ill-considered argument) That one really winds me up. Mr Angry (a.k.a. Jon Watts) From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 3-MAY-1995 09:51:46.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology-error" CC: Subj: RE: goat behavior Heather: I have spent many hours observing goat sexual behavior but have never seen what you describe. Very interesting! Since the female did not struggle to pull away from the male when he had her leg in his mouth, I'm wondering if the male was using this behavior to get her to stop rearing. Was the female in estrus? Was the male sexually active? Did he attempt to mount her when he loosened his grasp of her leg? Ed Price ---------- >From: applied-ethology-error >To: applied ethology >Subject: goat behavior >Date: Tuesday, May 02, 1995 9:06PM > >While conducting observations of goat sexual behavior, I recently >observed a behavior I haven't seen before and was wondering if anyone out >there has seen this and in what context. > >Following a prolonged period of repeated rear-up head butts initiated by >a female toward the male, the male held the female's foreleg (just above >the knee) in his mouth. He held that position for approximately 30 >seconds and in only one instance of this behavior did the female appear >to try to move away. The female's foreleg was not lifted off the >ground. Usually this was followed by the female continuing to rear-up >toward the male, but in one case was followed by the female initiating an >anogenital sniff of the male. > >Has anyone else seen this behavior...or heard of it? Did it occur in the >same context? > >Thanks, > >Heather Billings >billings@aesop.rutgers.edu > > From: IN%"HARRISM@sask.usask.ca" 3-MAY-1995 11:22:55.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: my pet language hate .... using the word "sacrificed" to describe animals which are killed at the end of an experiment. Why not say "killed"? - Moira From: IN%"CROWELL-DAVIS.S@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 3-MAY-1995 12:11:31.56 To: IN%"HARRISM@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: my pet language hate Date: Wed, 03 May 1995 11:02:44 -0600 (CST) From: HARRISM@sask.usask.ca Subject: my pet language hate To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca .... using the word "sacrificed" to describe animals which are killed at the end of an experiment. Why not say "killed"? - Moira I'll vote for this one too. It gives me visions of little sacrificial tables with accompanying ritual sacrificial knives hidden in the backs of laboratories. To what deities do the scientists sacrifice these animals? and with what incantations? -Sharon From: IN%"aataylor@uoguelph.ca" "Allison A Taylor" 3-MAY-1995 13:34:15.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: Animal Memorial Service For the past three years, we have organized a memorial ceremony at the University of Guelph, Ontario Canada to acknowledge the contribution made by animals to teaching and research. Our primary goal is to encourage sensitivity about the use of animals in the university community. In addition, we hope that this tradition might be adopted by other animal-using institutions. We are aware of similar ceremonies held in Japan as part of the Buddhist tradition. However, our ceremony is completely secular. Moreover, it does not take a stand, either pro or anti-animal use. We simply acknowledge THAT animals are being used in the course of our work. We encourage people to be reflective about their use of animals, rather than reflexive. Our ceremony ends with a walk to a monument dedicated on campus that reads IN RECOGNITION OF THE ANIMALS USED BY THE UNIVERSITY OF GUELPH COMMUNITY IN SUPPORT OF EXCELLENCE IN TEACHING AND RESEACRH. We share a moment of silence and lay some flowers at the momument. We have been contacted by several people interested in hosting a similar service at their own institution, but are not aware of any that have come to pass. This year's ceremony is scheduled for next Thursday (May 11). A brief description of our initial ceremony appeared in ANTHROZOOS (1993, Vol 6, 221-225). If any of you have knowledge of any similar attention paid to research &/or teaching animals, we would be grateful to hear from you. Hank Davis Allison Taylor From: IN%"DRasmussen@usarso-lan1.army.mil" 3-MAY-1995 17:24:47.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Panamanian Research Dear Applied Ethologists: There are strong efforts and plans currently underway that seem likely to open up the Republic of Panama for greater research and educational opportunities. Canadians have been working with me in Panama since I started my research here and these efforts would seem likely to further open up opportunities for tropical research to my northern colleagues on this net. Opportunities for research definitely include studies in applied ethology. I am currently working on the development of a Panamanian Primate Center and this is one research and educational effort that will probably become a part of the plans. The faculty here at Florida State University, Panama Canal Branch, including myself, feel this is an exciting opportunity to help foster educational and research opportunities. I attach a rather long description of the plans for a City of Knowledge here in Panama. If you don't feel like a long read, you can delete the message with a flick of the finger. On the other hand, if you are interested, get in touch with me or discuss it on the net. If you do get in touch with me I will put you on our mailing list for information on further developments. Please do forward this to other email groups to which you belong. You are also invited to show the message to members of your campus who are involved in international research efforts. Sincerely, Dennis R. Rasmussen +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Dennis R. Rasmussen, Ph.D. Phones: 507-85-5222 507-85-6905 | | FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY 507-85-6922 | | PANAMA CANAL BRANCH FAX: 507-27-4661 | | PSC #02 Box 2663 APO AA 34002 | | email:D=Rasmussen%FSU%USARSO@USARSO-LAN1.ARMY.MIL | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ In September, 1994, in his inaugural address, President of Panama Ernesto Perez Balladares, announced his administration's intention to establish what he called a "Ciudad del Saber" (City of Knowledge) using land and facilities now occupied by the United States Army but scheduled for return to Panama in or before 1999 under the provisions of the 1978 Carter-Torrijos Treaties. Perez Balladares made the Ciudad del Saber an important part of the speech he delivered in December, 1994, at the hemispheric summit in Miami. At the same meeting U.S. President Bill Clinton made favorable reference to it also. The main thrust of the initiative, as announced by Perez Balladares, is to attract foreign academic institutions and corporations to set up in Panama, but no specifics have been cited. The Florida State University Panama Canal Branch operates in Panama under contract to the U.S. Army. Its student body is about half U.S. and half Panamanian. Its permanent faculty numbers five Panamanians, three U.S. citizens, and two third- country nationals. During the 38 years of the Branch's existence, members of its faculty have done significant historical and scientific research. Through the Florida State Foundation for Tropical Studies the Branch's faculty and administration have provided assistence to researchers from other institutions. The Branch faculty considers the Ciudad del Saber initiative of great potential value. The attached paper, "Toward the Ciudad del Saber", embodies the Branch faculty's views and reflections on the initiative. The author, Professor Richard Koster, has taught English and other litarature at the Branch since 1964 and has published five books and many articles. TOWARD THE CIUDAD DEL SABER R. M. Koster The Ciudad del Saber is potentially the most intelligent proposal for Panama since that of making a canal here. The concept's author and chief proponent, Gabriel Lewis Galindo, is a politician with a background in business. It is hardly surprising that he advances the Ciudad del Saber as being of direct benefit to Panama and its people. I agree with him, and can imagine the Ciudad del Saber's increasing Panama's usefulness to the world community, enhancing its prestige, augmenting its revenue, enriching its educational and economic resources, endowing it with a stabilizing institution, and helping it make wise social use of its patrimony in what was once the Canal Zone. Besides this, however, the Ciudad del Saber will, if worthy of its name, partake of a university's traditional purpose: to foster the development of knowledge and to transmit that knowledge to others, particularly to succeeding generations. This is consonant with the ideals of the Republic of Panama as expressed in its motto, "Pro Mundi Benificio", and with Panama's history as the site and host of the Canal. Moreover, the Ciudad del Saber will effectively bring Panama into the world scholastic community in much the same way as Panama's merchant navy and banking center brought Panama into the world maritime and financial communities. In broad outline, as I understand the project, the Ciudad del Saber will realize its purpose and attain the goals just mentioned by attracting first-rate scholars to Panama. What one may immediately hope from it is the academic equivalent of the banking center. This analogy should be employed with skeptics. When I came to Panama in 1957, there were two foreign banks, Chase and National City, originally set up to serve the Canal Zone. It would have been very hard to find people willing to agree that in 25 years there would be over 100. Yet Panama's attractiveness to scholars is, if anything, greater in potential today than was its attractiveness to banks back then. Panama is already farther along toward being an international center for research and related activities than it was toward being a banking center. A small but significant difference between banking and scholarship should be noted. Attract the banks, and you will get the bankers. In the academic world it's the other way around. Attract the scholars, and you will get the institutions. The more enthusiasm one feels for the Ciudad del Saber the more one should note the risks involved in determining its character in advance. Humankind will continue to need institutions that develop and transmit knowledge, probably with increasing intensity, but no one knows what these will be or look like in the context of 21st century circumstances. The development of electronic technologies is already having a greater impact on such institutions than did the advent of printing 500 years ago. Moreover, just as the state replaced the Church as the chief patron of such institutions, the state is likely to be replaced by the business corporation. Other forces exist, or will come in play, to shape science, learning and the institutions concerned with them into forms unimaginable now. Deciding today on the specific character of the Ciudad del Saber would risk (if not insure) its being of little use tomorrow. But how can we bring it into being without a blueprint? The answer is that we must not think of building it. We must grow it from existing seeds. The first step is to take inventory of what Panama has already. Even a quick glance reveals impressive resources. *Panama is already on the map with scholars. Significant research has been done in Panama over a good stretch of time, including important work by people of international reputation. *An institutional nucleus for the Ciudad del Saber already exists in Panama, including institutions of world renown. *Panama's waters and forests are already prime attractions for scholars. A detailed inventory, besides being necessary for those husbanding the Ciudad del Saber, will useful in winning support for it and encouraging those already converted. What one wants in this line includes the following: Scholars: Who (particularly who of note) is currently engaged in research or teaching in Panama and who has done what in the past? A complete inventory would probably prove most illuminating. For example, I have in hand a book called The Extended Phenotype: The Gene as the Unit of Selection (Oxford, 1982) by the British evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins. This isn't the sort of reading normal with people like me whose chief interests are literature and politics, but Dawkins's work is so important that it attracts attention from far beyond his field. In his preface he notes that he benefited from "exposure to tropical biology as the grateful guest of the Smithsonian Institution in Panama during the writing of the book." Nor is the honor role limited to foreigners. Microbiologist Miguel Kourany of the Gorgas Memorial Laboratory (now a dependency of the Panamanian government) is but one among a number of Panamanian researchers whose work has been recognized internationally. Institutions: Which universities and research centers are operating in Panama? Which institutions are linked to Panama through someone who has taught, done research, or resided here? Which institutions have graduates, fellows, or former faculty who are in Panama now? My guess is that a great many institutions have a Panama "connection" that can be tended and made fruitful. Attractions: What attractions to scholars exist in Panama? Panama is at present one of the best places on earth to do tropical biology. It is the best place on earth to do comparative oceanography. It is, besides, an excellent place to do research in such fields as archaeology, forestry, history, ornithology, tropical agriculture, tropical geology, and international business. The full store and potential of such attractions should be ascertained. The next step, after taking stock, is to gather assets. Some years ago the Swiss Bank Corporation hired me to rewrite its booklet on incorporating in Panama. This led me to take a look at the development of the Panama banking industry. Growth was slow until about 20 foreign banks were established here. After that the number shot up to over 100. The Ciudad del Saber will grow the same way. The task of those who desire its existence is to help a "critical mass" form. By gathering assets I mean, specifically, developing a registry of scholars, grouping scholars, institutions, and industry so that their needs may be integrated, and marketing attractions in a concerted manner. Here is where the Ciudad del Saber is actually born from the embryo that exists at present. Federalism is, I think, the right approach. The Ciudad del Saber comes into being as an autonomous entity of the Panamanian state. It extends citizenship to those scholars and institutions it deems worthy. Others may petition for acceptance. As a matter of law it would have jurisdiction over research in Panama. Obviously, it would not be empowered to prevent Panamanians or bona fide residents from engaging in study or investigation, but one envisages a time in the near future when certain areas of the national territory will be designated as research sites and access to them controlled by the Ciudad del Saber. Furthermore, if the Ciudad del Saber succeeds, it will soon be necessary to limit the number of foreign researchers and students in Panama. The main function of the Ciudad del Saber, however, will be to promote and facilitate research and study. Some possible methods are as follows: *Facilitating the entry of scholars, students, and research equipment. *Issuing carnets and charters to scholars and institutions. *Facilitating external communication--e.g., provision of e-mail and data-transfer capabilities. *Facilitating communication within the Ciudad del Saber, as between scholars with mutual interests. *Organizing and hosting conferences on topics of interest. Citizenship in the Ciudad del Saber should be immediately extended to all reputable scholars and institutions presently in Panama. By integrating the needs of scholars, institutions, and industry, the Ciudad del Saber will create a whole greater than the sum of its parts. Scholars live by teaching and consulting. Industry needs the product of research, along with educated personnel and clients. Institutions that teach and foster research need financial support that will increasingly come from industry rather than from the state. Consider the phenomena of Route 128 in Massachusetts and Silicon Valley in California, wherein the computer and semiconductor industries were born and continue to thrive beside the Harvard-MIT and Berkeley-Stanford academic axes. Even more instructive for those involved in the creation of the Ciudad del Saber is the phenomenon of the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill triangle in North Carolina. Both Massachusetts and California were highly developed industrially before the advent of computers and semiconductors. North Carolina, until recently, was underdeveloped industrially. It was not simple coincidence that North Carolina was also underdeveloped academically. When I applied to college in 1951, there was not a single first-rate university south of Washington, D.C. With the development of Duke and the University of North Carolina into first-rate schools, and the simultaneous upgrading of North Carolina State University, the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill triangle experienced exponential growth in hi-tech industry. Now, consider a circumstance that occurred last summer involving the Florida State University Panama Canal Branch, an institution that has been operating in Panama since 1957. A graduate student in Spanish at the Florida State campus in Tallahassee, wanted to spend some months in Panama doing research toward his Ph.D. dissertation. He could afford the air fare, but he had nothing to live on. The Panama Canal Branch found him quarters with another faculty member and assigned him two courses to teach. He came, did his research, and lived on his teaching stipend, meanwhile making a small contribution to Panama's tourist industry. This sort of circumstance has occurred dozens of times during my 31 years of association with the FSU Panama Branch. Dozens of now distinguished academicians did research here in Panama and supported themselves by teaching at the Branch, including the university provost, Dr. Larry Abele. The Branch and Florida State's modest Foundation for Tropical Studies have also furnished logistical support to researchers from the campus at Tallahassee and from other institutions. The Ciudad del Saber will integrate the needs of many more scholars and institutions. It will foster the development of collegial relationships and provide links between universities in the United States, in Europe, and elsewhere in much the same way as the Panama Canal has provided links among national economies. Meanwhile, the needs of industry can be fed into the mixer. A local firm might need an outside consultant but be unable to pay his full fee. An academic institution might be willing to make up the difference in return for his teaching a seminar. Or a scholar in Panama to do research might support himself by consulting. The Ciudad del Saber would coordinate. Perhaps the Ciudad del Saber's most important activity will be marketing Panama's attractions until a "critical mass" of scholars and institutions exists in Panama. After that growth will be automatic. The Ciudad del Saber will then be chiefly concerned with managing that growth and improving quality. Two examples of what might constitute such marketing follow. According to E.O. Wilson, Baird Professor of Science at Harvard (who, incidently, created the discipline of sociobiology based on research done in Panama), the biodiversity of the planet is diminishing at the rate of a species per day due to tropical deforestation. Among the important things mankind stands to lose thereby are medicinal plants, for only a small fraction of rain forest species have even been catalogued, much less analyzed. In 1980 I did a piece for Quest magazine about Antonio Zarco, a Chocoe Indian at one time attached to the Jungle Survival School at Albrook Air Force Base. I spent five days with Zarco in the rain forest of the Panama Canal watershed and witnessed at first hand his knowledge of medicinal plants, including one he said was good for toothache and that anesthetized my mouth better than novocaine when I merely chewed its leaves. Zarco's first contact with the non-indigenous world took place when he cured a Panama Canal Company employee who had been bitten by a fer-de-lance snake, and a Gorgas Hospital physician whom I interviewed for the article admitted that the Indians know things modern medicine is ignorant of. Panama's forests and Panama's Indians constitute a scientific resource of value to the pharmaceutical industry of the developed world. Researchers, of course, are cataloguing rain forest plants. Pharmaceutical companies are having plants collected and analyzing them. Some effort is being made to put medical scientists in touch with Indian shamans. But if the Ciudad del Saber can put portions of the Panamanian rain forest at the disposal of qualified researchers, and supply the anthropological skills necessary to harvest the knowledge of people like Zarco, one or more drug companies ought to be willing to finance the project, and a good deal more of the Ciudad del Saber as well. Another example of marketing Panama's attraction to scholars is less exciting but easier to accomplish. Assume the Florida State University Panama Branch scheduled two courses in marine biology and two in, say, zoology during January-May, 1996 or 1997. There is every reason to suppose the Branch could recruit 50 undergraduates to come to Panama from the United States for these courses. It could probably recruit two or three times that number, given how cold it gets in much of the United States, but the Branch's largest classroom accommodates only 60, and one could assume some local enrollment. Travel agents will be delighted to handle the reservations. COPA or someone else will lay on a special fare. A hotel will quote special rates for bed and board, likewise a company to bus the students to class and to field trips. The whole thing could be sold as a package and make a nice contribution to Panama's tourist industry. That isn't the point of the exercise, however. The point is that 50 young Americans would open communica- tion between the Ciudad del Saber and two or three dozen U.S. universities, and the Ciudad del Saber would be that much closer to becoming the academic equivalent of the Panama banking center. These are but two examples. Many other ways to market Panama's attraction to scholars will be found. More will be clear when an inventory of Panama's attractions exists. Still more will appear by synergy when the Ciudad del Saber gathers existing assets. Besides assets I haven't mentioned--for instance the research station on Coiba Island maintained by Panama's Natural Resource Institute--, there are opportunities I haven't imagined, fields for research in Panama I haven't thought of, and industries besides the pharmaceutical eager to benefit and willing to contribute. As I imagine the Ciudad del Saber's development, research programs will precede teaching programs. I say programs because rather than use the contemporary university as a model I prefer to use the shopping mall. The Ciudad del Saber will look a lot more like Dadeland than like the "Universidad de las Americas" some people attempted to create in Panama in times past. When I imagine how the Ciudad del Saber will look 20 years from now, I see teaching programs run by McGill University and Universidad Gabriela Mistral operating next to teaching programs run by Olivetti and Toyota. The Ciudad del Saber's purpose in establishing teaching programs should be to enhance educational opportunity in Panama and thereby improve the quality of Panama's work force and managers where such is most needed. If this is accomplished, the Ciudad del Saber's teaching programs will attract students from outside Panama, enhancing Panama's prestige. In short, create substance and image will follow; create image and all you get are deflated expectations. I cannot warn too strongly against obsession with big-name universities. The Ciudad del Saber can begin at once using local institutions to exploit the attraction to foreign students of undergraduate field-study programs in, say, botany and tropical ecology. The students who come to them, the scholars who come to do research, will bring their institutions later. Contacts made through scholars can be used to invite institutions to establish small teaching programs. A current example is the AID-financed Iowa State University program of teaching economics to selected government employees. As regards teaching programs, the Ciudad del Saber should, I think, work from the top down--i.e., begin by inviting foreign institutions to establish postgraduate programs that do not compete with local universities. A certain amount of resistance to the Ciudad del Saber may be expected from people at these who want to remain big fish in a small pond. Meanwhile, political considerations and a disposition to look down on lo nacional may tempt some proponents of the Ciudad del Saber to exclude local institutions. Both tendencies should be resisted. The idea is good. The seeds are present. The Ciudad del Saber can be for Panama in the 21st century what the Canal was in the 20th. To: SMTP@USARSO7@Servers[MFRANCES@OPAL.TUFTS.EDU] Cc: Bcc: From: D Rasmussen@FSU@USARSO Subject: re: HELLO!!!! Date: Thursday, April 20, 1995 17:19:28 EST Attach: Certify: N Forwarded by: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- A very quick response. Here it is Thursday afternoon at 5:30 and I've still got to go to the island tonight. I need to get vegees too. Yegads. Saturday some students from my general psychology class are visiting. Should be fun. Glad to hear all is well. I think you've made the correct decision about this summer since it would be a replay of your last visit and you, and I, need to move forward. Summer after this, though, might have enough changes to be interesting. I'll write more later. Please forward the bit on the City of Knowlege to any who might be interested. Warmly, Dennis From: IN%"CROWELL-DAVIS.S@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 4-MAY-1995 07:53:44.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: gender and rank in academia Dear All: A recent paper just came to my desk which is germane to recent discussions we've had on this topic. For those interested in reading the entire study it is.. Tesch et al. (1995) Promotion of Women Physicians in Academic Medicine: Glass Ceiling or Sticky Floor? JAMA 273: 1022-1025. The conclusion was that "Women physician medical school faculty are promoted more slowly than men. Gender differences in rank achieved are not explained by productivity or by differential attrition from academic medicine." It is a cross-sectional survey of physician faculty of US medical schools, specifically of 153 women and 263 men first appointed between 1979 and 1981, matched for institutions of original faculty appointment. To pull out a few points from their summary of results which touch on topics that have been discussed on this network... ************************************************************ After a mean of 11 years on a medical school faculty 50% of women compared with 83% of men had achieved associate or full professor rank, and 5% of women compared with 23% of men had achieved full professor rank. Women and men reported similar preparation for an academic career, but women began their careers with fewer academic resources (i.e. Women were less likely to have been allocated office space or dedicated laboratory space, to begin their faculty careers with grant support, and to have protected time for research.) The number of children was not associated with rank achieved. After adjustment for productivity factors, women remained less likely to be associate or full professors or to achieve full professor rank. 50% of both women and men originally appointed as faculty members between 1979 and 1981 had left academic medicine by 1991. ************************************************************* Sharon Crowell-Davis crowell-davis.s@calc.vet.uga.edu From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 4-MAY-1995 09:44:09.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: my pet language hate Reply to message from CROWELL-DAVIS.S@calc.vet.uga.edu of Wed, 03 May > >Date: Wed, 03 May 1995 11:02:44 -0600 (CST) >From: HARRISM@sask.usask.ca >Subject: my pet language hate >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > >.... using the word "sacrificed" to describe animals which are killed at >the end of an experiment. Why not say "killed"? > >- Moira > >I'll vote for this one too. It gives me visions of little sacrificial >tables with accompanying ritual sacrificial knives hidden in the >backs of laboratories. To what deities do the scientists sacrifice >these animals? and with what incantations? > >-Sharon > > Language, especially English, changes all the time, as needs for clarity change. I really like the above example of how a word or phrase stimulates a complex impression. It reminded me of my favorite: "I lost Charlie last September." (Husband Charlie died around Labor day.) This always makes me want to answer, "LAST SEPTEMBER!!!? Did you search hard? Did you call the FBI? My God! I really liked Charlie; why didn't you call me? I would have been happy to have a chance to try to find him!" So far, I have resisted temtation. -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) From: IN%"APN6JMF@SOUTH-01.NOVELL.LEEDS.ac.uk" "Mike Forbes" 4-MAY-1995 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Sacrifice Via: uk.ac.leeds.gps1; Thu, 4 May 1995 15:24:53 +0100 "To sacrifice" as well as refering to offering something to a God, also means "destroy, surrender, or suffer to be lost, for the sake of obtaining something" (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 1910) or "surrender in order to gain something else " (Tophi Concise English Dictionary, 1990). I'm as much against the use of euphamisms as anyone but in this case I think the word is appropriate when use to describe the killing af animals for a purpose, i.e. research or even consumption. ------------------------------------------------ Professor Mike Forbes, Department of Animal Physiology and Nutrition, University of Leeds LS2 9JT, UK Email: j.m.forbes@leeds.ac.uk Phone: +44 (0113) 2333053 Fax: +44 (0113) 2333072 From: IN%"jik126@arts.usask.ca" "Jocelyn" 4-MAY-1995 11:16:43.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: the law of animal behavior I had this passed on to me today...I thought everyone would appreciate this: The "Harvard Law of Animal Behavior" states that: under carefully controlled experimental conditions, animals will and do behave as they damn well please! From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@nlh10.nlh.no" 5-MAY-1995 02:14:57.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: gender and rank in academia Dear all, Sharon Crowell-Davis crowell-davis.s@calc.vet.uga.edu referred to: > >Tesch et al. (1995) Promotion of Women Physicians in Academic >Medicine: Glass Ceiling or Sticky Floor? JAMA 273: 1022-1025. > >The conclusion was that "Women physician medical school faculty are >promoted more slowly than men. Gender differences in rank achieved >are not explained by productivity or by differential attrition from >academic medicine." > >The number of children was not associated with rank achieved. > >After adjustment for productivity factors, women remained less likely >to be associate or full professors or to achieve full professor rank. > >50% of both women and men originally appointed as faculty members >between 1979 and 1981 had left academic medicine by 1991. >************************************************************* I think important reasons for the slower promotion of women in science could be found in organization psychology. I am not an expert in that field, but experts I have listened to stress that men and women prefer different types of organization of the personnel resources in a company or institution in which they work. Whereas men feel comfortable with typical hierarchical structures of the organization, in which you can "climb" and strive for higher positions, women prefer a network organization where people are roughly at the same level, but cooperate with each other whenever needed and form interdisciplinary project groups which suit a particular task. In the latter type of organization, your hierarchical level is not important and "escalation strategies" are less frequent. Human ethologists may perhaps relate this to differences in the social behaviour between sexes among humans. Since academic institutions usually are hierarchical in structure, men have a psychological advantage. If academic institutions were from the beginning designed by women, instead of male priests, the organization might have been quite different. It could be interesting to study women rate of promotion in academic institutions according to their type of organization. The same organizational experts I referred to claimed that the network type of organization usually was more successfull in utilizing the various resources within each individual employee. In our department we have implemented a type of project organization which makes the role of professors quite obscure. (After all, with a few exceptions, most new ideas come from scientists below the full professor level.) After three years it seems to be quite successfull, both in its effectiveness and in the way it motivates younger scientists and the technical staff. By the way, during 1980-1989, 18 male and 7 female scientists got full-time jobs in our department (genetics, nutrition, physiology, biotechnology, biochemistry, and ethology), whereas during 1990-1995, 9 male and 13 female scientists got a job. During the last ten years, four full professors have been appointed, two of each sex. So, what is the conclusion: Give less power to professors, and more female scientists will function at top international level? Best regards, Bjarne Bjarne O. Braastad Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 From: IN%"J.J.B.WADHAM@BHAM.ac.uk" 5-MAY-1995 02:16:11.79 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Sacrifice Mike Forbes writes: >"To sacrifice" as well as refering to offering something to a God, >also means "destroy, surrender, or suffer to be lost, for the sake of >obtaining something" (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 1910) or >"surrender in order to gain something else " (Tophi Concise English >Dictionary, 1990). I feel you miss the point.:-) It is immaterial what the dictionary definition of the word is, the important thing is the meaning that it implied by the word. Futhermore your definitions surely require that the subject of sacrifice is dear to us. We all feel strongly about our animals, but I don't think we can say that any individual is dear to us. Jerry. _________________________________________________________________ | J.J.B.Wadham e-mail: J.J.B.Wadham@bham.ac.uk | | Biomedical Science and Ethics | | Medical School | | University of Birmingham | | Birmingham | | B15 2TT Tel : +44 121-414 5390 | United Kingdom Fax : +44 121-414 6979 | _________________________________________________________________ From: IN%"J.Eddison@plymouth.ac.uk" "J Eddison" 5-MAY-1995 03:23:21.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"P.Brooks-1@plymouth.ac.uk" Subj: I have a Ph.D. studentship available that can commence on 1 October 1995 on the following topic: An investigation into the relationship between livestock distribution channels and transport stress. For those of you in departments of biological sciences, there is also another position available within my faculty that you may wish to bring to the attention of colleagues and students: Modelling plant community dynamics for some key Cirso-Molinetum species. Closing date applications: 31 May 1995 Both positions will be based at: Seale-Hayne Faculty of Agriculture, Food & Land Use University of Plymouth Newton Abbot, TQ12 6NQ UK For an informal discussion and application form please contact Mrs T Parrott email: t1parrott@plymouth.ac.uk tel: +44 (0) 10626 325610, quoting ref: 1520/SH John Eddison jeddison@plymouth.ac.uk From: IN%"Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se" 5-MAY-1995 07:44:23.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Gender and rank Dear all, Bjarne Braastad wrote: "(After all, with a few exceptions, most new ideas come from scientists below the full professor level.) " I say: Prove it! No, seriously on the issue. It might interest the people taking part in this discussion that the Swedish government is taking these things seriously. Our new minister of education has decided to take measures in order to improve the very discouraging sex ratio of professors at Swedish universities (less than 7% professors are women). The most provocative decision has been to launch 30 new chairs, specifically dedicated to women. So 30 new persons, all must be female, will be given professorships. Apart from that, it is also suggested that females may be given a beneficial position in the selection process and actually be given a certain position, even if not being the most competent of the applicants. I, and many others, feel this is wrong. As much as we are pro equal rights, measures like this may be harmful to the work on getting better sex ratios on top academic positions. I ask the women on the network: Would you like to be a professor even if there were more competent male apllicants for the position you applied for? Best wishes, Per ******************************************************************* Per Jensen Professor of Ethology __/\______________9 Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences,\ o I Department of Animal Hygiene, \- I Section of Ethology \_______________I SKARA, SWEDEN /\ /\ E-mail: Per.Jensen@hhyg.slu.se / \ / \ ******************************************************************* From: IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu" 5-MAY-1995 08:16:19.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: sacrifice Anyone interested in the uses and misuses of the word 'sacrifice' in biomedical research should read Arnold Arluke's masterly exposition "Sacrificial symbolism in animal experimentation: object or pet?" in Anthrozoos, 2(2), 98-117, 1988; and the commentary stimulated by the same article in Anthrozoos, 3(2), 1989. James Serpell serpell@pobox.upenn.edu From: IN%"NWARAN@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Natalie Waran" 5-MAY-1995 08:50:31.02 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Jobs for the girls Re: jobs for the girls I agree with Per on the issue of promoting women just because they are women. Women are quite capable of proving their worth without the need for such positive discrimination. The problem in my opinion is more to do with how and who is doing the selecting. I remember being on an interview panel with a number of male colleagues and being shocked to hear the view of one of them on a female interviewee, which was that there was no point employing her since she was likely to want time off to have babies, and so would not be able to fully commit herself to the job. An example of positive discrimination can be seen in India where the Universities are obliged to offer places to students from lower castes (harogens). These students are considered to be less fortunate and therefore less able than the higher caste students and so are allowed to proceed from year to year with much lower marks than their fellow students. This not only causes bad feeling it also ensures that the standard of these graduates is much lower. They are also guaranteed jobs and are expected to be promoted despite their poor performance. The reason why the government is doing this is understandable but the result is disastrous. In Britain we have recently experienced this sort of discrimination. The Labour party have decided that they want to increase the number of women in parliament. So they have instructed a number of their constituencies to only select women as candidates for election. This has obviously created a bit of an outcry. Although I can understand why we need more women in certain positions (of course I would, I'm one too!), I do not agree with this way of achieving it. Surely there must be a more sensible approach??? Yours disappointedly natalie waran Edinburgh University From: IN%"JBS98@calc.vet.uga.edu" "JEFFREY SHELL" 5-MAY-1995 09:20:38.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Sacrifices While I generally agree with the notion that the term "sacrifice" is not an appropriate term for the killing of research animals, we must consider why such terms would need to be invented. One cannot argue the value of animals in most (note, I left room for exception) areas of research. Animals models of everything from psychosomatic disorders to environmental toxins have paved the way for advancement of knowledge. I have not yet met a researcher in a field which utilizes animal subjects who enjoys killing them.Destroying animals is as uncomfortable to some of these researchers who do it as it is us to those of us who oppose it. We cope with the conflicts of having to experience things that we dislike by using euphamisms and dark humor. There is a conflict between the feelings associated with having to kill the animals and knowing that one prefers not to kill them. So the tension is diverted with a bizarre sense of humor or terms like "sacrifice" in attempt to deny the reality. I don't know, its just a theory. Jeff Shell... From: IN%"vincent@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu" 5-MAY-1995 10:30:29.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: treatment of animals raised to food This request was on the ar-talk list. Perhaps some experts in the field of applied ethology can help her and her class out. I am sure that she will get loads of the type of information on the animal rights aspect of the issue. Perhaps some balance is in order. >From: Rid371@aol.com >Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 17:54:15 -1000 >To: ar-news@cygnus.com >Subject: treatment of animals raised to food >Sender: nobody@cygnus.com >Precedence: bulk > >5/4/95 >My fifth-grade class is researching treatment of cattle, pigs, sheep, poultry >and fish during shipment to market. Can we get information from your >newsletter, or can we access your information on-line from our computer lab, >or can you give us advice on where to look for info. Please excuse us if I >have done something rude in making these requests; I am very new at this. > Please send any replies to me at rid371@aol.com. Your help will be very >much appreciated. >Karen > Douglas L. Vincent, Ph.D. Department of Animal Sciences University of Hawaii at Manoa vincent@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu From: IN%"RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA" "JEFF RUSHEN" 5-MAY-1995 11:51:01.19 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Sex and the Professor Bjarne Braastad tells us that his department is establishing a policy to "make the role of professors obscure". I am sure they won't have to try very hard! Most places I know managed to do that years ago. In fact, not only are the *roles* of professors unclear, but many of the professors themselves are highly obscure. One full professor, Per Jensen, shows us that, whatever else we may think of them, there is still one thing that professors can do: send stimulating messages to applied-ethology. Per is not alone in his complaint about the morality of reverse sex discrimination. Basically, if sexual discrimination is wrong, then discriminating against males must also be wrong. But matters are rarely as clear as that. Social engineering is an accepted practice of governments. Governments often have schemes to favour one or other social group e.g. people living in inner cities, remote districts, the poor etc. Such policies are not wrong unless they are against the wishes of the majority of the population. I see nothing wrong in a government setting up a special scheme to hire only female professors. The main funding body in Canada, NSERC, has such a scheme for which only women can apply. In these cases, one of the explicit aims of the positions is to increase female participation in science. Such schemes also exist for other groups, such as younger scientists. As well as correcting past social injustices, such schemes are for the benefit of the science itself. I know of no real evidence that males are any better than females in most areas of science. Consequently in any field of research where the level of competence of researchers has been maximized, there should be an equal number of males and females. The highly male-biased sex skew that has existed up to now in applied ethology means that many less- competent males were preferred (somewhere along the line) over more-competent females. Reverse discrimination in promotions or hiring for jobs, for which both sexes may apply and the gender of the applicant is not supposed to play a direct role, however, is more tricky. Per suggests that such a policy could result in a less-competent woman getting a promotion over a more-competent male. His complaint, however, is based on the assumption that without this discrimination the most competent would get the job or the promotion. Those who get jobs or promotions are more competent than those who don't only in a statistical sense. Many mistakes are made; incompetent people clearly do often get promoted; and there is a great deal of noise in the selection. This is particularly true where there are a large number of applicants. I think we could easily add a slight bias towards females without changing the average competence of the promoted or the job getters. More fundamentally, we have to distinguish between true competence to do the job, and prior achievements. Actual competence cannot be measured until the person has been in the job for some time. Probable competence is judged on the basis of prior achievements e.g. number of grants obtained, papers published, invitations to conferences etc. However, the relationship between competence and prior achievement is likely to be different for males and females. If sexual discrimination has been a factor throughout a woman's career, then it would have been harder for her to get scholarships, jobs, students, grants and invitations to conferences, than a man. Therefore a woman with the same competence as a man would be expected to have fewer prior achievements. A woman with the same prior achievements as a man is likley to be more competent. Therefore it seems perfectly reasonable to ask for a lower level of prior achievement (but not competence) by a woman when deciding whether to give her a job or a promotion. Jeff Rushen RUSHENJ@NCCCOT.AGR.CA From: IN%"EGUN6103@URIACC.URI.EDU" 5-MAY-1995 14:16:44.73 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Request for info (vivisection I'm currently an undergrad (soon to be a grad!) searching for info about the names of companies that perform animal tests and the products they produce. Any info regarding drug or product testing, companies that perform psychological testing, or even info about the specific tests they perform or threats/attempts to stop testing would be greatly appreciated. Please realize that any small amount of info is helpful to me. I also must disclaim that the information provided to me might be used in a presentation and/or paper for a small undergrad class. Thanks in advance. PLEASE SEND ALL INFO TO: EGUN6103@URIACC.URI.EDU Elise Gunzelmann