From:	IN%"dorrit.ltd@gmx.de"  "Dorit"  1-MAY-2006 10:00:59.83
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	weaning age

Dear all,
Does anyone know of literature stating the age, calves (Bos taurus domesticus) are naturally weaned by their mothers?
I am currently watching 10 Cow-Calf-Pairs (AberdeenAngus) I left together when the rest of the herd was weaned last autum.
Fife of the mothers have calved again and all the little siblings are doing well.
But to say the mothers ever weaned their yearlings would be a lie,
though they seem to keep a distance around the birth of the new calf.

Looking forward to replies,
Dorit Albertsen

HarleyFarmsSouth
Chitterne
UK

From:	IN%"deh910@mail.usask.ca"  1-MAY-2006 10:39:53.87
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: weaning age

Dorit,

Interesting subject!

Surprisingly almost not research exists on the situation of leaving pairs to
wean naturally. There is perhaps just one article: Reinhardt and Reinhardt,
1981, J. Agric. Sci., 96:309-312. They reported a weaning age of 8-10 months
with male calves being nursed for longer than the female offspring.

From other species it would seen natural weaning is ecologically driven. That is
to say, the timing of weaning has less to do with and more to do with resource
availability. If nutritional resources are scarce and if other conditions
warrant (e.g., energy demands brought on by a harsh environment) are prevalent
then weaning might occur earlier. Obviously these factors are not so extreme in
the situation of domestic animals due to things like supplemental feeding and
provisions for shelter, and so I am not so surprised that your cows have not
weaned their yearling calves yet.

One big question many people have is whether continued nursing by the yearling
would limit the initial nursings of newborn, affect colostrum intake and
ultimately their survivability and fitness. Sibling rivalry perhaps?

It would be interesting to hear about any of your observations, especially this
comment you made about keeping a distance around the birth of the new calf. Is
there is a period before and after parturition when the dam does not nurse the
older calf? (Granted, cattle may not have evolved any specific mechanism to
optimally manage this kind of situation.)

Derek

From:	IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca"  1-MAY-2006 11:12:45.80
To:	IN%"dorrit.ltd@gmx.de"  "Dorit"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: weaning age

Hi,

If you have access you should read the article by Isabelle Veissier et 
al., 1990.  Social behaviour in domestic beef cattle when yearling 
calves are left with the cows for the next calving. Appl. Anim. Behav. 
Sci.  27, 193-200.  Just by chance I was reading it this morning before 
I saw your note.  Isabelle watched 11 Saler beef cows and found that 
some of them had not weaned their previous calves prior to calving.  The 
new offspring were given preferential access to the udders, but some of 
the yearlings were apparently still nursing. 

We plan to conduct a major project over the next two years looking at 
natural weaning (or at least leaving calves with cows until 11 months of 
age.)  Give me a year I might be able to tell you more about our findings!

Hope this info helps.

Joe

-- 
Joseph M. Stookey
Professor of Applied Ethology
Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences
Western College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Saskatchewan
52 Campus Drive
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Canada S7N 5B4

Tel 306-966-7154
Fax 306-966-7159


From:	IN%"marine.bedoucha@wanadoo.fr"  "Marine Cassoret"  9-MAY-2006 16:40:21.52
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Job Posting - Online instructor

Dear list members,

Please see below. Feel free to cross post:

Marine


The American College of Applied Science is looking for an instructor to
write and teach an online course in Developmental Psychobiology.
This course is part of the College's Master of Science programme in
Companion Animal Behaviour Counseling.

Candidates should hold a PhD in a relevant field. Teaching experience
preferred , but not a requisite.

Resum=E9s can be mailed through the ACAS website at :
http://amcollege.com/employment/

Marine Cassoret


American College of Applied Science
123 Dream Pond Road
Crescent City, FL 32112 USA
1-800-403-3347
http://www.amcollege.com=

From:	IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 10-MAY-2006 15:49:57.23
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Explanation for mare attack

Hi Everyone,

I am soliciting comments, suggestions or explanations from anyone who 
cares to respond, regarding a case of a mare attacking her owner.  The 
owner is an 88 year old woman (Mrs H.).  In March of this year the 3 
year old mare intentionally, whirled and kicked Mrs. H 3 times on her 
lower legs.  Mrs H has been around horses all her life and describes the 
attack as "her kicking and squealing resembled a mare being teased by a 
stallion"
 
The mare was raised on this particular farm, weaned as a young filly.  
They isolated her from the group when she was weaned and started her on 
an oat diet as a young filly.  She was halter broke, group housed with 
other mares on pasture during the summers and supplemented with an oat 
ration during each winter.  This particular mare and her mother were 
both fairly high in their dominance rank within the herd.  On the 
morning of attack Mrs H arrived at the farm and the group of mares has 
already been turned out of the stables.  She had assumed her son had fed 
the mares, but he had only turned them out into the corral.  Normally 
feed was set out in the corral before the mares were turned out.  Mrs H 
entered the corral and walked through the group of unfed horses and into 
the stable.  The mare had followed her across the corral and tried to 
nose her head into the pail of cat food the woman was holding.  Mrs. H 
ignored the mare and entered the stable and closed the door so the mare 
would not follow.  The mare turned and kicked the barn twice.  Mrs H 
ignored the kicking, but wondered why she would kick at the barn.  When 
Mrs H exited the barn and walked through the pen, the mare trotted after 
her, then whirled, squealed and began the kicking.  Luckily Mrs. H was 
close enough to the edge of the corral and able to get herself out of 
the pen.  She thinks the mare may have killed her had she collapsed in 
the pen.

Any idea what might be going on here?  Mrs. H wrote to me asking for my 
"explanation" of the event and I owe her some response, but I really 
don't have much of an explanation as to why this may have happened.  
Could a change in the feeding routine result in this kind of behaviour?  
I am really a cattle, sheep and swine kind of guy and do not have a clue 
what is going on here.  If you have any ideas or understanding of this 
case based on what I wrote, please let me know.  I do not have any more 
info, history or background other than what I already provided; all the 
information I have on this case is already before you.  The horse was 
sold for slaughter, so the woman is no longer in danger, but she still 
wonders what caused the attack.

Looking forward to hearing from some of you.


Cheers,


Joe

-- 
Joseph M. Stookey
Professor of Applied Ethology
Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences
Western College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Saskatchewan
52 Campus Drive
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Canada S7N 5B4

Tel 306-966-7154
Fax 306-966-7159


From:	IN%"marine.bedoucha@wanadoo.fr"  "Marine Cassoret" 10-MAY-2006 18:11:44.26
To:	IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Explanation for mare attack

Hello Joseph,

I am not working specifically on horses, so the response below is un-=20
scientific, just based on my experience.  I'd love to hear from =20
anyone  who would come up with a scientific explanation.

  I don't see it as an abnormal behavior, just the accumulation of =20
several factors. Here are my  two cents:

-This horse is (was) young, not saddle broke, full of energy. I'd say =20=

on top of this she lacks maybe a little respect towards people? This =20
is a behavior I've seen in "teenage" horses (only halter broke). They =20=

may try to play or react aggressively with humans like they'd do with =20=

horses. (Andy, if you read this, what's your opinion?). My guess is =20
there would have been signs of her temper long before this incident =20
happened that were just overlooked / ignored.

-The mare started this when the lady entered the corral, and the lady =20=

did not do anything. I'd have pushed the horse away, have her respect =20=

my space (not sure if slapping her on the nose would have helped, she =20=

may have turned around and kicked anyway).

(Maybe her mother's status and her own affected her reaction as well, =20=

being a more "dominant" type?)

-The horses were anticipating food, which I am sure increased the =20
level of excitement. The human who entered the corral was not =20
bringing any, to make matters worse.

I'll be looking forward to hearing about other list members' =20
comments. But I am really not sure that is was "abnormal". Just a =20
very pushy horse.

Marine


Le 10 mai 06 =E0 17:56, joseph stookey a =E9crit :

> Hi Everyone,
>
> I am soliciting comments, suggestions or explanations from anyone =20
> who cares to respond, regarding a case of a mare attacking her =20
> owner.  The owner is an 88 year old woman (Mrs H.).  In March of =20
> this year the 3 year old mare intentionally, whirled and kicked =20
> Mrs. H 3 times on her lower legs.  Mrs H has been around horses all =20=

> her life and describes the attack as "her kicking and squealing =20
> resembled a mare being teased by a stallion"
> The mare was raised on this particular farm, weaned as a young =20
> filly.  They isolated her from the group when she was weaned and =20
> started her on an oat diet as a young filly.  She was halter broke, =20=

> group housed with other mares on pasture during the summers and =20
> supplemented with an oat ration during each winter.  This =20
> particular mare and her mother were both fairly high in their =20
> dominance rank within the herd.  On the morning of attack Mrs H =20
> arrived at the farm and the group of mares has already been turned =20
> out of the stables.  She had assumed her son had fed the mares, but =20=

> he had only turned them out into the corral.  Normally feed was set =20=

> out in the corral before the mares were turned out.  Mrs H entered =20
> the corral and walked through the group of unfed horses and into =20
> the stable.  The mare had followed her across the corral and tried =20
> to nose her head into the pail of cat food the woman was holding.  =20
> Mrs. H ignored the mare and entered the stable and closed the door =20
> so the mare would not follow.  The mare turned and kicked the barn =20
> twice.  Mrs H ignored the kicking, but wondered why she would kick =20
> at the barn.  When Mrs H exited the barn and walked through the =20
> pen, the mare trotted after her, then whirled, squealed and began =20
> the kicking.  Luckily Mrs. H was close enough to the edge of the =20
> corral and able to get herself out of the pen.  She thinks the mare =20=

> may have killed her had she collapsed in the pen.
>
> Any idea what might be going on here?  Mrs. H wrote to me asking =20
> for my "explanation" of the event and I owe her some response, but =20
> I really don't have much of an explanation as to why this may have =20
> happened.  Could a change in the feeding routine result in this =20
> kind of behaviour?  I am really a cattle, sheep and swine kind of =20
> guy and do not have a clue what is going on here.  If you have any =20
> ideas or understanding of this case based on what I wrote, please =20
> let me know.  I do not have any more info, history or background =20
> other than what I already provided; all the information I have on =20
> this case is already before you.  The horse was sold for slaughter, =20=

> so the woman is no longer in danger, but she still wonders what =20
> caused the attack.
>
> Looking forward to hearing from some of you.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Joe
>
> --=20
> Joseph M. Stookey
> Professor of Applied Ethology
> Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences
> Western College of Veterinary Medicine
> University of Saskatchewan
> 52 Campus Drive
> Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
> Canada S7N 5B4
>
> Tel 306-966-7154
> Fax 306-966-7159

From:	IN%"brayowc@earthlink.net"  "Barbara Ray" 10-MAY-2006 23:45:17.10
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Explanation for mare attack

-----Original Message-----
>From: Barbara Ray <brayowc@earthlink.net>
>Sent: May 10, 2006 11:43 PM
>To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca
>Subject: Re: Explanation for mare attack
>
>It is not at all unusual for horses, especially those accustomed to a routine regarding feeding, to announce their anxiousness or stress when feed is not presented as expected.  This often manifests as ear pinning, pawing, kicking walls or fences and frustration or irritation aggression aimed at conspecifics or other animals (or even humans) in the immediate vicinity.  It is also quite possible there had already been a build up of stress among the group in the corral, and it is not unusual for an animal in a group to then lash out to human keepers who enter the scene.
>
>Equids have a GI system (and acompanying behavioral repertoire and "need", e.g. mental "desire") designed for processing roughages around the clock.  Humans typically restrict horses to certain, "timed" feedings per day, (and often restricted movement vis-a-vis grazing opportunity) which many horses "adapt" to for the most part, yet there remains an underlying metabolic "stress" that encroaches, even though it may be at low levels, on the equine pysche, and so much focus gets centered on the actual times of day food is actually available, that normally high thresholds are lowered severely.
>
>While horses on good pasture 12 or more hours a day may occasionally show territorial defense aggression toward humans or other animals in their "territories," one would be hardpressed to ever observe a feeding related behavior as the one described here, unless humans "interfere" with some kind of "scheduled" feeding of say, grain supplements.
>
>There is much about the herbivore metabolic system and needs that largely goes ignored by humans keeping them captive but that has a major impact on the physical, mental and emotional lives of said animals, and can manifest in a huge variety of abberant, stereotypic or simply undesirable behavior.  
>
>Barbara Ray
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: joseph stookey <joseph.stookey@usask.ca>
>>Sent: May 10, 2006 5:56 PM
>
>>  She had assumed her son had fed 
>>the mares, but he had only turned them out into the corral.  Normally 
>>feed was set out in the corral before the mares were turned out.  Mrs H 
>>entered the corral and walked through the group of unfed horses and into 
>>the stable.  The mare had followed her across the corral and tried to 
>>nose her head into the pail of cat food the woman was holding.  Mrs. H 
>>ignored the mare and entered the stable and closed the door so the mare 
>>would not follow.  The mare turned and kicked the barn twice.  Mrs H 
>>ignored the kicking, but wondered why she would kick at the barn.  When 
>>Mrs H exited the barn and walked through the pen, the mare trotted after 
>>her, then whirled, squealed and began the kicking.  
>
>Barbara Ray
>Ohio Wildlife Center
>Conservation Education and Wildlife Health
>614.734.WILD
>
>       " It is a wholesome and necessary thing for us to turn again to the earth and in the contemplation of her beauties to know of wonder and humility."
>        ~~Rachel Carson


From:	IN%"BBEAVER@cvm.tamu.edu"  "Bonnie Beaver" 11-MAY-2006 07:59:05.80
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca"  "joseph stookey"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Explanation for mare attack

Joe,

It is too bad that there is not more information regarding the usualy
behavior and the physical features of the mare.  Several years ago, I
found (and published) several cases of excessively aggressive mares
which had abnormally high testosterone levels.  I found the "syndrome"
because of an aggressive mare I had.  She too was about 3 at the time
her problem started.  Physically she had excellent muscle tone for the
amount (not because of the amount) of exercise she was getting, and you
were never quite sure what would set her off.  Even though I knew she
would kick and was standing to the side of her real leg while brushing
her tail, she was able to kick me twice in the chest before I hit the
ground.

There was a second mare in a herd here at TAMU that also seemed very
dominant within the herd, had excellent muscle tone and no exercise, and
a somewhat cresty neck.  In discussing these mares with a physiologist
here, we decided to run testosterone levels (since there were already
being done for the study the second mare was on).  Both mares had
stallion level levels, mine having the highest recorded in a mare here
at the time.

Other horses we studied did come in higher eventually.  One mare and
her morther both were dominant type personalities that tested very high
so apparently at least some of these mares can still cycle and become
pregnant.  The lesson for me was that we needed to know something about
the hormone levels with very aggressive mares, and now routinely check
this in clinical cases.  There are several possible causes for the
increased levels, which we went into in the paper (Beaver and Amoss,
Aggressive Behavior Associated with Naturally Elevated Serum
Testosterone in Mares, Applied Animal Ethology 8: 425-428, 1982.)

Wish we knew more about your mare.
Bonnie


Bonnie V. Beaver, BS, DVM, MS, DACVB
Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences
Texas A&M University
4474 TAMU
College Station, TX 77843-4474

phone: 979-845-2351
fax: 979-845-6978
e-mail: bbeaver@cvm.tamu.edu

From:	IN%"santa@kersur.net"  "Gwenyth Santagate" 11-MAY-2006 08:20:15.45
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Explanation for mare Attack

Hi there ... I guess since this is my livelihood (Equine Behavioral 
Specialist) I'll pipe in. *grin* 

First, yes, .. young mare. Young mare who needed to learn her place in 
the "pecking order" of the herd. Older woman who was/is unable to assert her 
position of "Leader" within the herd. Horses HAVE to have a 
designated "Leader" ... if the human does not take up that position then the 
horse HAS to by "design". Note I use the word "Leader" vs. "Boss" although 
Boss is good if the human involved does not care whether or not a working 
partnership is established with the particular horse.There are both leaders 
and bosses in equine herds; boss mare=alpha=inconsistent, inconsiderate, 
untrustworthy, unpredictable BUT able to head up a herd of hundreds and keep 
them well informed as to where to go, how fast to move, when to eat, what to 
eat, when and what to drink, etc. Then ... in each sub-group there 
are "Lead" mares - those mares to whom the others in the 'family' look to 
for guidance and safety. One who is assertive yet predictable (won't kick, 
bite or strike without provocation and real good provocation at that), 
trustworthy, able to befriend others in family group, nurturing, etc. etc. 
Just think in terms of the worst descriptives for "boss" and the 
descriptives for a good Leader. Those are the differences. 
When trying to establish a working, amiable partnership with a horse it is 
preferable to take up the Lead mare position so the horse will trust the 
human and look to that person for safety. However, when dealing in a herd 
where one is merely a caretaker or feeder being a "Boss" is OK ... it 
certainly lets the horses know just where they stand, who the boss really is 
and they ain't gonna mess with the boss mare! 

Secondly, the woman had food. Albeit it was cat food but the filly didn't 
care ... it was food. For the woman to go ahead and not ALLOW the filly to 
get food, she was, in effect, being ultimately RUDE to the filly is as much 
as the woman had not, obviously, established either her leadership or 
alpha/boss position with that filly. That means the FILLY was the boss or 
leader. The BOSS is the one who ALWAYS eats first and demands that 'respect' 
of others. No one eats until the BOSS says its OK to eat and no one eats 
what the BOSS wants. Then, turning one's back on a lead mare is somewhat OK 
but turning your backside to an alpha is a huge breach in the social conduct 
acceptable in a herd. Too close to an alpha, turn your back and you risk 
getting kicked up the ying yang which is just what happened. It may well 
have been true that the filly would have trampled the woman had she been 
knocked down. This ultra aggressive behavior actually tells me that the 
filly is actually herd alpha material rather than lead mare. I own 
an "alpha" mare; we have a strong understanding and mutual respect. I am 
able to get her to move away from me at any given time however, I MUST 
remain 'assertive' and never "aggressive" with her. There's a HUGE 
difference in the equine world between these two attitudes and intents. 
Aggressiveness begets aggressiveness while assertiveness begets respect and 
compliance. This mare's entire facial expression changes if someone gets 
too 'aggressive' with her. "If looks could kill." That's my mare, all over. 
If someone doesn't listen then they surely risk getting the broadside of the 
brush handle from her! *grin* We both know just how far to push one 
another's buttons as I've had her for 12 years now and she actually was 
known as a "killer" mare. She now is as gentle as a kitten with children who 
have no ulterior intent but with adults who have strong intent in an 
aggressive manner, she gives fair warning but is quick to react to those 
attitudes. 

On the other hand, if this filly is the low man on the totem pole, so to 
speak, within the EQUINE herd then her low rank will also be exhibited with 
extreme aggressiveness especially with one who is deemed lower ranking than 
she. It is usually the low ranking horses that do the most physical 
fighting. The leaders assume their positions in the herd merely with their 
attitude - their aura, if you will. Stallions will fight physically but 
rarely are there fights to death between them. The boss/alpha mares are just 
plain ornery and nasty to low ranking horses. Its their job to protect the 
entire herd and they just don't have the time to coddle any one horse. It's 
rare to see an alpha buddy up with another horse. They are usually loners. 

My assessment of the recorded incident is the filly was asserting her place 
in the herd and since the woman did not "listen" respectfully and "give" to 
the filly; likewise she did not establish her position in the herd by 
running the filly off in no uncertain terms, the filly reacted to the 
woman's turning her backside to her and too that as a 'dis' as well as a 
challenge. Obviously, humans lose in this type of situation where they are 
not able to go after such a horse in no uncertain terms of who REALLY is 
the "boss" or, the leader. 

I teach every horse that I work with to back off and not invade MY space 
until "invited" to do so. If they do, they have to either back off very 
quickly or if giving me an 'attitude' then they are run off and have to keep 
running until *I* give them permission to stop. *I* will direct their feet 
and tell *them* how fast to move, where to move, when to stop, when to turn, 
when to keep going, etc. That very simple exercise (that takes a whole lot 
of energy and zest!) changes the horse's entire perception of the terms 
between him and me. I don't *allow* the horse to eat until *I* say its ok or 
I invite him to eat. If a horse rushes me and is rude then they're gonna 
have to back off real fast and start runnin'. If a horse EVER aggresses me 
then that horse is gonna think, within 3 seconds of its rudeness and for at 
least 3 seconds, that I am going to KILL it. I don't hit, I don't whip, I 
don't use any physical force like that cause I know I'll lose someday and 
then I won't be working w/horse any more! In fact, I won't be working, 
period, cause I'll be under the ground by 6 feet. But that horse that 
aggresses me has no questions in its mind that I am going to have his 
carcass on my dinner plate if he doesn't move away from me and FAST. The 
only time I will use whatever I have handy to protect myself is when I know 
that horse means to kill me. Then that horse will get a whip or bucket or 
whatever it takes to get him off me. I've had to do that just a couple of 
times in over 40 years. Other than that, I guess I have a pretty strong 
assertive manner that lets them know they're not to mess with me. But that's 
hard for a woman 88 years old who obviously can't run after a horse. 

BTW .. this is one reason that horses make AWESOME therapists!! Equine 
Assisted Therapy is one of the BEST therpies for learning to set your 
boundaries and how to say "no". !!  *grin* 

Anyway ... much longer than I intended. Apologies for being so long winded. 
Sad and unfortunate situation. I hope the woman recovers quickly and best 
that the horse was sent to slaughter as there are not many people who can 
deal with situations like this without proper teaching and training. It's 
usually more about teaching the humans than it is the horse ... 

:) -- Gwen


-----Original Message-----
From: Marine Cassoret [mailto:marine.bedoucha@wanadoo.fr]
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 8:11 PM
To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca
Cc: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: Re: Explanation for mare attack

Hello Joseph,

I am not working specifically on horses, so the response below is un- 
scientific, just based on my experience.  I'd love to hear from anyone  who 
would come up with a scientific explanation.

  I don't see it as an abnormal behavior, just the accumulation of several 
factors. Here are my  two cents:

-This horse is (was) young, not saddle broke, full of energy. I'd say on top 
of this she lacks maybe a little respect towards people? This is a behavior 
I've seen in "teenage" horses (only halter broke). They may try to play or 
react aggressively with humans like they'd do with horses. (Andy, if you 
read this, what's your opinion?). My guess is there would have been signs of 
her temper long before this incident happened that were just overlooked / 
ignored.

-The mare started this when the lady entered the corral, and the lady did 
not do anything. I'd have pushed the horse away, have her respect my space 
(not sure if slapping her on the nose would have helped, she may have turned 
around and kicked anyway).

(Maybe her mother's status and her own affected her reaction as well, being 
a more "dominant" type?)

-The horses were anticipating food, which I am sure increased the level of 
excitement. The human who entered the corral was not bringing any, to make 
matters worse.

I'll be looking forward to hearing about other list members'  
comments. But I am really not sure that is was "abnormal". Just a very pushy 
horse.

Marine


Le 10 mai 06 à 17:56, joseph stookey a écrit :

> Hi Everyone,
>
> I am soliciting comments, suggestions or explanations from anyone who 
> cares to respond, regarding a case of a mare attacking her owner.  The 
> owner is an 88 year old woman (Mrs H.).  In March of this year the 3 
> year old mare intentionally, whirled and kicked Mrs. H 3 times on her 
> lower legs.  Mrs H has been around horses all her life and describes 
> the attack as "her kicking and squealing resembled a mare being teased 
> by a stallion"
> The mare was raised on this particular farm, weaned as a young filly.  
> They isolated her from the group when she was weaned and started her 
> on an oat diet as a young filly.  She was halter broke, group housed 
> with other mares on pasture during the summers and supplemented with 
> an oat ration during each winter.  This particular mare and her mother 
> were both fairly high in their dominance rank within the herd.  On the 
> morning of attack Mrs H arrived at the farm and the group of mares has 
> already been turned out of the stables.  She had assumed her son had 
> fed the mares, but he had only turned them out into the corral.  
> Normally feed was set out in the corral before the mares were turned 
> out.  Mrs H entered the corral and walked through the group of unfed 
> horses and into the stable.  The mare had followed her across the 
> corral and tried
> to nose her head into the pail of cat food the woman was holding.   
> Mrs. H ignored the mare and entered the stable and closed the door so 
> the mare would not follow.  The mare turned and kicked the barn twice.  
> Mrs H ignored the kicking, but wondered why she would kick at the 
> barn.  When Mrs H exited the barn and walked through the pen, the mare 
> trotted after her, then whirled, squealed and began the kicking.  
> Luckily Mrs. H was close enough to the edge of the corral and able to 
> get herself out of the pen.  She thinks the mare may have killed her 
> had she collapsed in the pen.
>
> Any idea what might be going on here?  Mrs. H wrote to me asking for 
> my "explanation" of the event and I owe her some response, but I 
> really don't have much of an explanation as to why this may have 
> happened.  Could a change in the feeding routine result in this kind 
> of behaviour?  I am really a cattle, sheep and swine kind of guy and 
> do not have a clue what is going on here.  If you have any ideas or 
> understanding of this case based on what I wrote, please let me know.  
> I do not have any more info, history or background other than what I 
> already provided; all the information I have on this case is already 
> before you.  The horse was sold for slaughter, so the woman is no 
> longer in danger, but she still wonders what caused the attack.
>
> Looking forward to hearing from some of you.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Joe
>
> --
> Joseph M. Stookey
> Professor of Applied Ethology
> Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of 
> Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan
> 52 Campus Drive
> Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
> Canada S7N 5B4
>
> Tel 306-966-7154
> Fax 306-966-7159
>
>


Thank you


From:	IN%"nkdiehl@pa.net"  "Nancy Diehl" 11-MAY-2006 08:35:43.96
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Explanation for mare Attack

Gwenyth,

I note that your response had a lot of references to the human's place in
the horses' hierarchy.  I could never quite understand how easily we seem to
assume that people can fit into a group of animals' natural group order.
This is similar to one saying a person must be "dominant" in the horses'
pecking order.  I would really like to see evidence or a sound ethological
discussion on inter-species "dominance" or hierarchical relationships.
Somehow, it does not make sense to me.

Thanks,
Nancy

Nancy Kate Diehl, MS, VMD
The Charles Farm
email nkdiehl@pa.net
in beautiful Perry County, PA !

-----Original Message-----
From: Gwenyth Santagate [mailto:santa@kersur.net] 
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 10:20 AM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Explanation for mare Attack

Hi there ... I guess since this is my livelihood (Equine Behavioral 
Specialist) I'll pipe in. *grin* 

First, yes, .. young mare. Young mare who needed to learn her place in 
the "pecking order" of the herd. Older woman who was/is unable to assert her

position of "Leader" within the herd. Horses HAVE to have a 
designated "Leader" ... if the human does not take up that position then the

horse HAS to by "design". Note I use the word "Leader" vs. "Boss" although 
Boss is good if the human involved does not care whether or not a working 
partnership is established with the particular horse.There are both leaders 
and bosses in equine herds; boss mare=alpha=inconsistent, inconsiderate, 
untrustworthy, unpredictable BUT able to head up a herd of hundreds and keep

them well informed as to where to go, how fast to move, when to eat, what to

eat, when and what to drink, etc. Then ... in each sub-group there 
are "Lead" mares - those mares to whom the others in the 'family' look to 
for guidance and safety. One who is assertive yet predictable (won't kick, 
bite or strike without provocation and real good provocation at that), 
trustworthy, able to befriend others in family group, nurturing, etc. etc. 
Just think in terms of the worst descriptives for "boss" and the 
descriptives for a good Leader. Those are the differences. 
When trying to establish a working, amiable partnership with a horse it is 
preferable to take up the Lead mare position so the horse will trust the 
human and look to that person for safety. However, when dealing in a herd 
where one is merely a caretaker or feeder being a "Boss" is OK ... it 
certainly lets the horses know just where they stand, who the boss really is

and they ain't gonna mess with the boss mare! 

Secondly, the woman had food. Albeit it was cat food but the filly didn't 
care ... it was food. For the woman to go ahead and not ALLOW the filly to 
get food, she was, in effect, being ultimately RUDE to the filly is as much 
as the woman had not, obviously, established either her leadership or 
alpha/boss position with that filly. That means the FILLY was the boss or 
leader. The BOSS is the one who ALWAYS eats first and demands that 'respect'

of others. No one eats until the BOSS says its OK to eat and no one eats 
what the BOSS wants. Then, turning one's back on a lead mare is somewhat OK 
but turning your backside to an alpha is a huge breach in the social conduct

acceptable in a herd. Too close to an alpha, turn your back and you risk 
getting kicked up the ying yang which is just what happened. It may well 
have been true that the filly would have trampled the woman had she been 
knocked down. This ultra aggressive behavior actually tells me that the 
filly is actually herd alpha material rather than lead mare. I own 
an "alpha" mare; we have a strong understanding and mutual respect. I am 
able to get her to move away from me at any given time however, I MUST 
remain 'assertive' and never "aggressive" with her. There's a HUGE 
difference in the equine world between these two attitudes and intents. 
Aggressiveness begets aggressiveness while assertiveness begets respect and 
compliance. This mare's entire facial expression changes if someone gets 
too 'aggressive' with her. "If looks could kill." That's my mare, all over. 
If someone doesn't listen then they surely risk getting the broadside of the

brush handle from her! *grin* We both know just how far to push one 
another's buttons as I've had her for 12 years now and she actually was 
known as a "killer" mare. She now is as gentle as a kitten with children who

have no ulterior intent but with adults who have strong intent in an 
aggressive manner, she gives fair warning but is quick to react to those 
attitudes. 

On the other hand, if this filly is the low man on the totem pole, so to 
speak, within the EQUINE herd then her low rank will also be exhibited with 
extreme aggressiveness especially with one who is deemed lower ranking than 
she. It is usually the low ranking horses that do the most physical 
fighting. The leaders assume their positions in the herd merely with their 
attitude - their aura, if you will. Stallions will fight physically but 
rarely are there fights to death between them. The boss/alpha mares are just

plain ornery and nasty to low ranking horses. Its their job to protect the 
entire herd and they just don't have the time to coddle any one horse. It's 
rare to see an alpha buddy up with another horse. They are usually loners. 

My assessment of the recorded incident is the filly was asserting her place 
in the herd and since the woman did not "listen" respectfully and "give" to 
the filly; likewise she did not establish her position in the herd by 
running the filly off in no uncertain terms, the filly reacted to the 
woman's turning her backside to her and too that as a 'dis' as well as a 
challenge. Obviously, humans lose in this type of situation where they are 
not able to go after such a horse in no uncertain terms of who REALLY is 
the "boss" or, the leader. 

I teach every horse that I work with to back off and not invade MY space 
until "invited" to do so. If they do, they have to either back off very 
quickly or if giving me an 'attitude' then they are run off and have to keep

running until *I* give them permission to stop. *I* will direct their feet 
and tell *them* how fast to move, where to move, when to stop, when to turn,

when to keep going, etc. That very simple exercise (that takes a whole lot 
of energy and zest!) changes the horse's entire perception of the terms 
between him and me. I don't *allow* the horse to eat until *I* say its ok or

I invite him to eat. If a horse rushes me and is rude then they're gonna 
have to back off real fast and start runnin'. If a horse EVER aggresses me 
then that horse is gonna think, within 3 seconds of its rudeness and for at 
least 3 seconds, that I am going to KILL it. I don't hit, I don't whip, I 
don't use any physical force like that cause I know I'll lose someday and 
then I won't be working w/horse any more! In fact, I won't be working, 
period, cause I'll be under the ground by 6 feet. But that horse that 
aggresses me has no questions in its mind that I am going to have his 
carcass on my dinner plate if he doesn't move away from me and FAST. The 
only time I will use whatever I have handy to protect myself is when I know 
that horse means to kill me. Then that horse will get a whip or bucket or 
whatever it takes to get him off me. I've had to do that just a couple of 
times in over 40 years. Other than that, I guess I have a pretty strong 
assertive manner that lets them know they're not to mess with me. But that's

hard for a woman 88 years old who obviously can't run after a horse. 

BTW .. this is one reason that horses make AWESOME therapists!! Equine 
Assisted Therapy is one of the BEST therpies for learning to set your 
boundaries and how to say "no". !!  *grin* 

Anyway ... much longer than I intended. Apologies for being so long winded. 
Sad and unfortunate situation. I hope the woman recovers quickly and best 
that the horse was sent to slaughter as there are not many people who can 
deal with situations like this without proper teaching and training. It's 
usually more about teaching the humans than it is the horse ... 

:) -- Gwen





From:	IN%"Gabriela.Olmos@teagasc.ie"  "Gabriela Olmos" 11-MAY-2006 09:22:41.27
To:	IN%"nkdiehl@pa.net"  "Nancy Diehl", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Explanation for mare Attack

Dear all,
I am really trilled by the comment of Nancy asking for references to
inter-species "dominance" I wouldn't call it dominance.  But is true
that inter-species relationships exist and that are important to take in
account for the management of the animal.  I am not into horses but I
did have done a lit review on human-animal interaction under extensive
management and here are some references that might be useful:

1. Lott, D. F., Hart BJ 1979. Applied ethology in cattle cultures.
Appl. Anim. Ethol. 5, 309-319. (this is special interesting, it talk
about how the Fulani herdsman are able to control their herds by putting
themselves in the hierarchy of their cattle)

2. Rushen J., De Passille Munksgaard L, Tanida H. 2001. People as social
actors in the World of farm animals.  In: Keeling L J, Gonyou H W
(editors) Social behaviour in Farm Animals.  Oxon UK CAB International
pp. 353 - 372.

Thanks and good luck


Gabriela Olmos Antillon
Dairy Research Centre
Moorepark, Teagasc
Fermoy, Co. Cork
Tel +353(0) 25 42366
gabriela.olmos@teagasc.ie

-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Diehl [mailto:nkdiehl@pa.net] 
Sent: 11 May 2006 15:35
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Explanation for mare Attack

Gwenyth,

I note that your response had a lot of references to the human's place
in
the horses' hierarchy.  I could never quite understand how easily we
seem to
assume that people can fit into a group of animals' natural group order.
This is similar to one saying a person must be "dominant" in the horses'
pecking order.  I would really like to see evidence or a sound
ethological
discussion on inter-species "dominance" or hierarchical relationships.
Somehow, it does not make sense to me.

Thanks,
Nancy

Nancy Kate Diehl, MS, VMD
The Charles Farm
email nkdiehl@pa.net
in beautiful Perry County, PA !

-----Original Message-----
From: Gwenyth Santagate [mailto:santa@kersur.net] 
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 10:20 AM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Explanation for mare Attack

Hi there ... I guess since this is my livelihood (Equine Behavioral 
Specialist) I'll pipe in. *grin* 

First, yes, .. young mare. Young mare who needed to learn her place in 
the "pecking order" of the herd. Older woman who was/is unable to assert
her

position of "Leader" within the herd. Horses HAVE to have a 
designated "Leader" ... if the human does not take up that position then
the

horse HAS to by "design". Note I use the word "Leader" vs. "Boss"
although 
Boss is good if the human involved does not care whether or not a
working 
partnership is established with the particular horse.There are both
leaders 
and bosses in equine herds; boss mare=alpha=inconsistent, inconsiderate,

untrustworthy, unpredictable BUT able to head up a herd of hundreds and
keep

them well informed as to where to go, how fast to move, when to eat,
what to

eat, when and what to drink, etc. Then ... in each sub-group there 
are "Lead" mares - those mares to whom the others in the 'family' look
to 
for guidance and safety. One who is assertive yet predictable (won't
kick, 
bite or strike without provocation and real good provocation at that), 
trustworthy, able to befriend others in family group, nurturing, etc.
etc. 
Just think in terms of the worst descriptives for "boss" and the 
descriptives for a good Leader. Those are the differences. 
When trying to establish a working, amiable partnership with a horse it
is 
preferable to take up the Lead mare position so the horse will trust the

human and look to that person for safety. However, when dealing in a
herd 
where one is merely a caretaker or feeder being a "Boss" is OK ... it 
certainly lets the horses know just where they stand, who the boss
really is

and they ain't gonna mess with the boss mare! 

Secondly, the woman had food. Albeit it was cat food but the filly
didn't 
care ... it was food. For the woman to go ahead and not ALLOW the filly
to 
get food, she was, in effect, being ultimately RUDE to the filly is as
much 
as the woman had not, obviously, established either her leadership or 
alpha/boss position with that filly. That means the FILLY was the boss
or 
leader. The BOSS is the one who ALWAYS eats first and demands that
'respect'

of others. No one eats until the BOSS says its OK to eat and no one eats

what the BOSS wants. Then, turning one's back on a lead mare is somewhat
OK 
but turning your backside to an alpha is a huge breach in the social
conduct

acceptable in a herd. Too close to an alpha, turn your back and you risk

getting kicked up the ying yang which is just what happened. It may well

have been true that the filly would have trampled the woman had she been

knocked down. This ultra aggressive behavior actually tells me that the 
filly is actually herd alpha material rather than lead mare. I own 
an "alpha" mare; we have a strong understanding and mutual respect. I am

able to get her to move away from me at any given time however, I MUST 
remain 'assertive' and never "aggressive" with her. There's a HUGE 
difference in the equine world between these two attitudes and intents. 
Aggressiveness begets aggressiveness while assertiveness begets respect
and 
compliance. This mare's entire facial expression changes if someone gets

too 'aggressive' with her. "If looks could kill." That's my mare, all
over. 
If someone doesn't listen then they surely risk getting the broadside of
the

brush handle from her! *grin* We both know just how far to push one 
another's buttons as I've had her for 12 years now and she actually was 
known as a "killer" mare. She now is as gentle as a kitten with children
who

have no ulterior intent but with adults who have strong intent in an 
aggressive manner, she gives fair warning but is quick to react to those

attitudes. 

On the other hand, if this filly is the low man on the totem pole, so to

speak, within the EQUINE herd then her low rank will also be exhibited
with 
extreme aggressiveness especially with one who is deemed lower ranking
than 
she. It is usually the low ranking horses that do the most physical 
fighting. The leaders assume their positions in the herd merely with
their 
attitude - their aura, if you will. Stallions will fight physically but 
rarely are there fights to death between them. The boss/alpha mares are
just

plain ornery and nasty to low ranking horses. Its their job to protect
the 
entire herd and they just don't have the time to coddle any one horse.
It's 
rare to see an alpha buddy up with another horse. They are usually
loners. 

My assessment of the recorded incident is the filly was asserting her
place 
in the herd and since the woman did not "listen" respectfully and "give"
to 
the filly; likewise she did not establish her position in the herd by 
running the filly off in no uncertain terms, the filly reacted to the 
woman's turning her backside to her and too that as a 'dis' as well as a

challenge. Obviously, humans lose in this type of situation where they
are 
not able to go after such a horse in no uncertain terms of who REALLY is

the "boss" or, the leader. 

I teach every horse that I work with to back off and not invade MY space

until "invited" to do so. If they do, they have to either back off very 
quickly or if giving me an 'attitude' then they are run off and have to
keep

running until *I* give them permission to stop. *I* will direct their
feet 
and tell *them* how fast to move, where to move, when to stop, when to
turn,

when to keep going, etc. That very simple exercise (that takes a whole
lot 
of energy and zest!) changes the horse's entire perception of the terms 
between him and me. I don't *allow* the horse to eat until *I* say its
ok or

I invite him to eat. If a horse rushes me and is rude then they're gonna

have to back off real fast and start runnin'. If a horse EVER aggresses
me 
then that horse is gonna think, within 3 seconds of its rudeness and for
at 
least 3 seconds, that I am going to KILL it. I don't hit, I don't whip,
I 
don't use any physical force like that cause I know I'll lose someday
and 
then I won't be working w/horse any more! In fact, I won't be working, 
period, cause I'll be under the ground by 6 feet. But that horse that 
aggresses me has no questions in its mind that I am going to have his 
carcass on my dinner plate if he doesn't move away from me and FAST. The

only time I will use whatever I have handy to protect myself is when I
know 
that horse means to kill me. Then that horse will get a whip or bucket
or 
whatever it takes to get him off me. I've had to do that just a couple
of 
times in over 40 years. Other than that, I guess I have a pretty strong 
assertive manner that lets them know they're not to mess with me. But
that's

hard for a woman 88 years old who obviously can't run after a horse. 

BTW .. this is one reason that horses make AWESOME therapists!! Equine 
Assisted Therapy is one of the BEST therpies for learning to set your 
boundaries and how to say "no". !!  *grin* 

Anyway ... much longer than I intended. Apologies for being so long
winded. 
Sad and unfortunate situation. I hope the woman recovers quickly and
best 
that the horse was sent to slaughter as there are not many people who
can 
deal with situations like this without proper teaching and training.
It's 
usually more about teaching the humans than it is the horse ... 

:) -- Gwen





From:	IN%"santa@kersur.net"  "Gwenyth Santagate" 11-MAY-2006 09:31:22.66
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	IN%"caballus@charter.net"
Subj:	RE: Explanation for mare Attack

Hi Nancy ... I don't have any formal, scientific basis ... only over 40 
years of experience with horses. I don't think its so much that a 
human "fits" in with the horses' natural group order as much as its about 
body language and communicating with the horses in a manner that they 
understand. They have a natural order to their hierarchy and they understand 
*that* perfectly. Its up to the human to try to make him/herself understood 
by the horse as I said. Horses are quite intelligent animals able to solve 
problems and change their perceptions of their environment if taught how to 
do so. If you're of mind, check out the following websites that might help 
your understanding:  http://www.equineresearch.org/   http://www.equine-
behavior.com/    Both have some excellent information. The Equine Research 
Project has internships and programs where this type of behavior and 
understanding of it can readily be observed and studied. 

I might add, too, that working with horses is much different than working 
with predatory animals. They think differently; they react differently; they 
have totally different perceptions of their world around them. 


--Gwen


-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Diehl [mailto:nkdiehl@pa.net] 
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 10:35 AM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Explanation for mare Attack

Gwenyth,

I note that your response had a lot of references to the human's place in
the horses' hierarchy.  I could never quite understand how easily we seem to
assume that people can fit into a group of animals' natural group order.
This is similar to one saying a person must be "dominant" in the horses'
pecking order.  I would really like to see evidence or a sound ethological
discussion on inter-species "dominance" or hierarchical relationships.
Somehow, it does not make sense to me.

Thanks,
Nancy

Nancy Kate Diehl, MS, VMD
The Charles Farm
email nkdiehl@pa.net
in beautiful Perry County, PA !

-----Original Message-----
From: Gwenyth Santagate [mailto:santa@kersur.net] 
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 10:20 AM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Explanation for mare Attack

Hi there ... I guess since this is my livelihood (Equine Behavioral 
Specialist) I'll pipe in. *grin* 

First, yes, .. young mare. Young mare who needed to learn her place in 
the "pecking order" of the herd. Older woman who was/is unable to assert her

position of "Leader" within the herd. Horses HAVE to have a 
designated "Leader" ... if the human does not take up that position then the

horse HAS to by "design". Note I use the word "Leader" vs. "Boss" although 
Boss is good if the human involved does not care whether or not a working 
partnership is established with the particular horse.There are both leaders 
and bosses in equine herds; boss mare=alpha=inconsistent, inconsiderate, 
untrustworthy, unpredictable BUT able to head up a herd of hundreds and keep

them well informed as to where to go, how fast to move, when to eat, what to

eat, when and what to drink, etc. Then ... in each sub-group there 
are "Lead" mares - those mares to whom the others in the 'family' look to 
for guidance and safety. One who is assertive yet predictable (won't kick, 
bite or strike without provocation and real good provocation at that), 
trustworthy, able to befriend others in family group, nurturing, etc. etc. 
Just think in terms of the worst descriptives for "boss" and the 
descriptives for a good Leader. Those are the differences. 
When trying to establish a working, amiable partnership with a horse it is 
preferable to take up the Lead mare position so the horse will trust the 
human and look to that person for safety. However, when dealing in a herd 
where one is merely a caretaker or feeder being a "Boss" is OK ... it 
certainly lets the horses know just where they stand, who the boss really is

and they ain't gonna mess with the boss mare! 

Secondly, the woman had food. Albeit it was cat food but the filly didn't 
care ... it was food. For the woman to go ahead and not ALLOW the filly to 
get food, she was, in effect, being ultimately RUDE to the filly is as much 
as the woman had not, obviously, established either her leadership or 
alpha/boss position with that filly. That means the FILLY was the boss or 
leader. The BOSS is the one who ALWAYS eats first and demands that 'respect'

of others. No one eats until the BOSS says its OK to eat and no one eats 
what the BOSS wants. Then, turning one's back on a lead mare is somewhat OK 
but turning your backside to an alpha is a huge breach in the social conduct

acceptable in a herd. Too close to an alpha, turn your back and you risk 
getting kicked up the ying yang which is just what happened. It may well 
have been true that the filly would have trampled the woman had she been 
knocked down. This ultra aggressive behavior actually tells me that the 
filly is actually herd alpha material rather than lead mare. I own 
an "alpha" mare; we have a strong understanding and mutual respect. I am 
able to get her to move away from me at any given time however, I MUST 
remain 'assertive' and never "aggressive" with her. There's a HUGE 
difference in the equine world between these two attitudes and intents. 
Aggressiveness begets aggressiveness while assertiveness begets respect and 
compliance. This mare's entire facial expression changes if someone gets 
too 'aggressive' with her. "If looks could kill." That's my mare, all over. 
If someone doesn't listen then they surely risk getting the broadside of the

brush handle from her! *grin* We both know just how far to push one 
another's buttons as I've had her for 12 years now and she actually was 
known as a "killer" mare. She now is as gentle as a kitten with children who

have no ulterior intent but with adults who have strong intent in an 
aggressive manner, she gives fair warning but is quick to react to those 
attitudes. 

On the other hand, if this filly is the low man on the totem pole, so to 
speak, within the EQUINE herd then her low rank will also be exhibited with 
extreme aggressiveness especially with one who is deemed lower ranking than 
she. It is usually the low ranking horses that do the most physical 
fighting. The leaders assume their positions in the herd merely with their 
attitude - their aura, if you will. Stallions will fight physically but 
rarely are there fights to death between them. The boss/alpha mares are just

plain ornery and nasty to low ranking horses. Its their job to protect the 
entire herd and they just don't have the time to coddle any one horse. It's 
rare to see an alpha buddy up with another horse. They are usually loners. 

My assessment of the recorded incident is the filly was asserting her place 
in the herd and since the woman did not "listen" respectfully and "give" to 
the filly; likewise she did not establish her position in the herd by 
running the filly off in no uncertain terms, the filly reacted to the 
woman's turning her backside to her and too that as a 'dis' as well as a 
challenge. Obviously, humans lose in this type of situation where they are 
not able to go after such a horse in no uncertain terms of who REALLY is 
the "boss" or, the leader. 

I teach every horse that I work with to back off and not invade MY space 
until "invited" to do so. If they do, they have to either back off very 
quickly or if giving me an 'attitude' then they are run off and have to keep

running until *I* give them permission to stop. *I* will direct their feet 
and tell *them* how fast to move, where to move, when to stop, when to turn,

when to keep going, etc. That very simple exercise (that takes a whole lot 
of energy and zest!) changes the horse's entire perception of the terms 
between him and me. I don't *allow* the horse to eat until *I* say its ok or

I invite him to eat. If a horse rushes me and is rude then they're gonna 
have to back off real fast and start runnin'. If a horse EVER aggresses me 
then that horse is gonna think, within 3 seconds of its rudeness and for at 
least 3 seconds, that I am going to KILL it. I don't hit, I don't whip, I 
don't use any physical force like that cause I know I'll lose someday and 
then I won't be working w/horse any more! In fact, I won't be working, 
period, cause I'll be under the ground by 6 feet. But that horse that 
aggresses me has no questions in its mind that I am going to have his 
carcass on my dinner plate if he doesn't move away from me and FAST. The 
only time I will use whatever I have handy to protect myself is when I know 
that horse means to kill me. Then that horse will get a whip or bucket or 
whatever it takes to get him off me. I've had to do that just a couple of 
times in over 40 years. Other than that, I guess I have a pretty strong 
assertive manner that lets them know they're not to mess with me. But that's

hard for a woman 88 years old who obviously can't run after a horse. 

BTW .. this is one reason that horses make AWESOME therapists!! Equine 
Assisted Therapy is one of the BEST therpies for learning to set your 
boundaries and how to say "no". !!  *grin* 

Anyway ... much longer than I intended. Apologies for being so long winded. 
Sad and unfortunate situation. I hope the woman recovers quickly and best 
that the horse was sent to slaughter as there are not many people who can 
deal with situations like this without proper teaching and training. It's 
usually more about teaching the humans than it is the horse ... 

:) -- Gwen



Thank you


From:	IN%"brayowc@earthlink.net"  "Barbara Ray" 11-MAY-2006 09:50:24.69
To:	IN%"nkdiehl@pa.net"  "Nancy Diehl", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Explanation for mare Attack

-----Original Message-----
>From: Nancy Diehl <nkdiehl@pa.net>
>Sent: May 11, 2006 10:34 AM

>I could never quite understand how easily we seem to
>assume that people can fit into a group of animals' natural group order.
>This is similar to one saying a person must be "dominant" in the horses'
>pecking order.  I would really like to see evidence or a sound ethological
>discussion on inter-species "dominance" or hierarchical relationships.
>Somehow, it does not make sense to me.

I have to second that, Nancy.  I lived with and studied 3 bands totaling 12=
0 domestic horses for a six year period, and also have observed captive, fr=
ee-ranging Przewalski's horses and Plains Zebra bands.  In my next life, ma=
ybe I will have time to actually compile all the data and do something with=
 it!

I do not even observe the "dominance" model that humans apply so frequently=
 to animals with regard to "status."  (Typically the mare who guides the ba=
nd is an elder mare who has the knowledge of where things are and how to ge=
t access to it.  Since survival is hardwired, and accompanying energy effic=
iency and conservation is part of it, as well as the complexities of a grou=
p living together sharing what may be someitmes limited resources, yet stil=
l they NEED to live together for safety reasons, there has developed comple=
x social behaviors that we tend to lump as aggression or dominance or appea=
sement, things I do not think we sufficiently understand yet what really IS=
 going on. Most bands that are stable, the stability seems to be controlled=
 by the animals we would label as the "wannabes."  But these animals do not=
 seem to want to be anything except safe and have enough to eat, mate, if t=
hey are in breeding bands and so on.  These animals maintain the peace in t=
he band that allows the band to then put its energy toward food and avoidin=
g danger.

When space, food or reproductive pressures are put on a band, then we see a=
n increase in overt behavior of say one mare being less tolerant of her spa=
ce with other conspecifics and so on.

  Yes, there are animals who maintain access to key resources for a period =
of time.  But the hierarchical shifts are quite fluid, and if the horses/ze=
bra have all their needs met, there is not much defense aggression at all, =
and when it occurs, is centered primarily around space, food resources and =
reproductive access.  Much communication occurs simply through complex soci=
al signals and visual cues, and if overt behaviors like biting or kicking o=
ccur, there is almost always an identifiable pressure that has been placed =
on an individual or group or a hormonal shift (as in reproductive stimulati=
on) or space and territory issues and so on.  But what humans tend to label=
 "dominance," the horses seem to be saying it is a social group adaptation =
designed for maximum safety and survivability.

This is not to say that we haven't also "dumbed" down some domestic horses =
by poor breeding or poor environmental condition, meaning, just for instanc=
e, "bad handling or training."

Animals do what works.  No mention was made that this horse has any history=
 of coming at humans with both barrels.  But if she had, something about th=
e behavior is working for her, and reinforced behavior gets repeated.  It s=
eems it has nothing to do with the horse wanting to have higher status than=
 the person, but everything to do with a horse doing behavior that results =
in what she needs or wants. =20

In this particular scenario presented, I doubt the mare cared at all whethe=
r the human was her best friend or her leader or a toad sitting on a log.  =
She was clearly frustrated or stressed about a missed meal, maybe even phys=
ically as well as mentally.  Maybe she had a 3mm follicle.  Maybe she has t=
oo much testosterone.  But that INCIDENT (of not feeding, carrying a pail e=
tc) certainly put her over threshold under those conditions.  One thing we =
can and do observe routinely in captive social mammal groups, are animals w=
ho, no matter what their heirarchy, lash out at ANYone in their path, even =
their suppposed "higher ups," when they reach a certain threshold of frustr=
ation or stress.  Which is another reason why the dominance model makes no =
sense in inter-species situations.

However, I would be as interested as anyone on some ethological study of su=
ch.

Cheers,


Barbara Ray

    "The moment one gives close attention to anything, even a blade of gras=
s, it becomes a mysterious, awesome, indescribably magnificent world in its=
elf."
                                                   ~~Henry Miller

From:	IN%"brayowc@earthlink.net"  "Barbara Ray" 11-MAY-2006 09:52:04.49
To:	IN%"Gabriela.Olmos@teagasc.ie"  "Gabriela Olmos", IN%"nkdiehl@pa.net"  "Nancy Diehl", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Explanation for mare Attack

Thanks for these references, Gabriela!

Barbara Ray

-----Original Message-----
>From: Gabriela Olmos <Gabriela.Olmos@teagasc.ie>
>Sent: May 11, 2006 11:21 AM

>Dear all,
>I am really trilled by the comment of Nancy asking for references to
>inter-species "dominance" I wouldn't call it dominance.  But is true
>that inter-species relationships exist and that are important to take in
>account for the management of the animal.  I am not into horses but I
>did have done a lit review on human-animal interaction under extensive
>management and here are some references that might be useful:
>
>1. Lott, D. F., Hart BJ 1979. Applied ethology in cattle cultures.
>Appl. Anim. Ethol. 5, 309-319. (this is special interesting, it talk
>about how the Fulani herdsman are able to control their herds by putting
>themselves in the hierarchy of their cattle)
>
>2. Rushen J., De Passille Munksgaard L, Tanida H. 2001. People as social
>actors in the World of farm animals.  In: Keeling L J, Gonyou H W
>(editors) Social behaviour in Farm Animals.  Oxon UK CAB International
>pp. 353 - 372.
>
>Thanks and good luck
>
>
>Gabriela Olmos Antillon
>Dairy Research Centre
>Moorepark, Teagasc
>Fermoy, Co. Cork
>Tel +353(0) 25 42366
>gabriela.olmos@teagasc.ie

Barbara Ray

    "The moment one gives close attention to anything, even a blade of grass, it becomes a mysterious, awesome, indescribably magnificent world in itself."
                                                   ~~Henry Miller

From:	IN%"clare@amerion.com"  "Clare Lewandowski" 11-MAY-2006 09:53:30.18
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Explanation for mare Attack

in social animals like horses who may have had to share feeding grounds and 
watering places with other species such as bison or wild cattle, backing off 
from either a larger or more determined animal or group of animals from 
another species isn't too hard to imagine.
then there are the recent examples of a hippo and tortoise bonding and the 
lioness who adopted the antelope babies. or of a dog that accepted a baby 
squirrel into her litter of pups and raised it. I've heard of a Pomeranian 
that adopted kittens when she had a litter and nursed them. and a female 
Doberman who found a newborn fawn, owners saw the doe leave, she had 
triplets and left the third. the dog licked the amniotic fluid and was very 
maternal of the fawn who grew up and hung around for the first year but came 
back yearly with her fawns and all were fearless of the dog and the people.
 both predator and prey and competitors need to be able to assess the body 
language and intent of other species. several types of scavengers from 
vultures to jackals may all be competing for the same food and will work out 
who gets to eat first.
also perhaps pertinent here is the example of young bull elephants moved to 
an area without dominant adult bulls who started to harass and injure 
rhinos. once some large bulls were brought in, the young males calmed down 
and stopped harassing the rhinos. why would a young male like to harass 
another species? what if at least one rhino had been able to get an elephant 
to back off? would this have been similar to a human teaching a horse to 
mind its manners around humans?
personally I like the term boss as it reminds the humans they have the final 
responsibility to keep things safe. being a good boss who works with a team 
means being a fair leader but if there is an error and someone gets hurt, 
the human boss is the one responsible.
Clare
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nancy Diehl" <nkdiehl@pa.net>
To: <applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 7:34 AM
Subject: RE: Explanation for mare Attack


| Gwenyth,
|
| I note that your response had a lot of references to the human's place in
| the horses' hierarchy.  I could never quite understand how easily we seem 
to
| assume that people can fit into a group of animals' natural group order.
| This is similar to one saying a person must be "dominant" in the horses'
| pecking order.  I would really like to see evidence or a sound ethological
| discussion on inter-species "dominance" or hierarchical relationships.
| Somehow, it does not make sense to me.
|
| Thanks,
| Nancy
|
| Nancy Kate Diehl, MS, VMD
| The Charles Farm
| email nkdiehl@pa.net
| in beautiful Perry County, PA !
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Gwenyth Santagate [mailto:santa@kersur.net]
| Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 10:20 AM
| To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
| Subject: RE: Explanation for mare Attack
|
| Hi there ... I guess since this is my livelihood (Equine Behavioral
| Specialist) I'll pipe in. *grin*
|
| First, yes, .. young mare. Young mare who needed to learn her place in
| the "pecking order" of the herd. Older woman who was/is unable to assert 
her
|
| position of "Leader" within the herd. Horses HAVE to have a
| designated "Leader" ... if the human does not take up that position then 
the
|
| horse HAS to by "design". Note I use the word "Leader" vs. "Boss" although
| Boss is good if the human involved does not care whether or not a working
| partnership is established with the particular horse.There are both 
leaders
| and bosses in equine herds; boss mare=alpha=inconsistent, inconsiderate,
| untrustworthy, unpredictable BUT able to head up a herd of hundreds and 
keep
|
| them well informed as to where to go, how fast to move, when to eat, what 
to
|
| eat, when and what to drink, etc. Then ... in each sub-group there
| are "Lead" mares - those mares to whom the others in the 'family' look to
| for guidance and safety. One who is assertive yet predictable (won't kick,
| bite or strike without provocation and real good provocation at that),
| trustworthy, able to befriend others in family group, nurturing, etc. etc.
| Just think in terms of the worst descriptives for "boss" and the
| descriptives for a good Leader. Those are the differences.
| When trying to establish a working, amiable partnership with a horse it is
| preferable to take up the Lead mare position so the horse will trust the
| human and look to that person for safety. However, when dealing in a herd
| where one is merely a caretaker or feeder being a "Boss" is OK ... it
| certainly lets the horses know just where they stand, who the boss really 
is
|
| and they ain't gonna mess with the boss mare!
|
| Secondly, the woman had food. Albeit it was cat food but the filly didn't
| care ... it was food. For the woman to go ahead and not ALLOW the filly to
| get food, she was, in effect, being ultimately RUDE to the filly is as 
much
| as the woman had not, obviously, established either her leadership or
| alpha/boss position with that filly. That means the FILLY was the boss or
| leader. The BOSS is the one who ALWAYS eats first and demands that 
'respect'
|
| of others. No one eats until the BOSS says its OK to eat and no one eats
| what the BOSS wants. Then, turning one's back on a lead mare is somewhat 
OK
| but turning your backside to an alpha is a huge breach in the social 
conduct
|
| acceptable in a herd. Too close to an alpha, turn your back and you risk
| getting kicked up the ying yang which is just what happened. It may well
| have been true that the filly would have trampled the woman had she been
| knocked down. This ultra aggressive behavior actually tells me that the
| filly is actually herd alpha material rather than lead mare. I own
| an "alpha" mare; we have a strong understanding and mutual respect. I am
| able to get her to move away from me at any given time however, I MUST
| remain 'assertive' and never "aggressive" with her. There's a HUGE
| difference in the equine world between these two attitudes and intents.
| Aggressiveness begets aggressiveness while assertiveness begets respect 
and
| compliance. This mare's entire facial expression changes if someone gets
| too 'aggressive' with her. "If looks could kill." That's my mare, all 
over.
| If someone doesn't listen then they surely risk getting the broadside of 
the
|
| brush handle from her! *grin* We both know just how far to push one
| another's buttons as I've had her for 12 years now and she actually was
| known as a "killer" mare. She now is as gentle as a kitten with children 
who
|
| have no ulterior intent but with adults who have strong intent in an
| aggressive manner, she gives fair warning but is quick to react to those
| attitudes.
|
| On the other hand, if this filly is the low man on the totem pole, so to
| speak, within the EQUINE herd then her low rank will also be exhibited 
with
| extreme aggressiveness especially with one who is deemed lower ranking 
than
| she. It is usually the low ranking horses that do the most physical
| fighting. The leaders assume their positions in the herd merely with their
| attitude - their aura, if you will. Stallions will fight physically but
| rarely are there fights to death between them. The boss/alpha mares are 
just
|
| plain ornery and nasty to low ranking horses. Its their job to protect the
| entire herd and they just don't have the time to coddle any one horse. 
It's
| rare to see an alpha buddy up with another horse. They are usually loners.
|
| My assessment of the recorded incident is the filly was asserting her 
place
| in the herd and since the woman did not "listen" respectfully and "give" 
to
| the filly; likewise she did not establish her position in the herd by
| running the filly off in no uncertain terms, the filly reacted to the
| woman's turning her backside to her and too that as a 'dis' as well as a
| challenge. Obviously, humans lose in this type of situation where they are
| not able to go after such a horse in no uncertain terms of who REALLY is
| the "boss" or, the leader.
|
| I teach every horse that I work with to back off and not invade MY space
| until "invited" to do so. If they do, they have to either back off very
| quickly or if giving me an 'attitude' then they are run off and have to 
keep
|
| running until *I* give them permission to stop. *I* will direct their feet
| and tell *them* how fast to move, where to move, when to stop, when to 
turn,
|
| when to keep going, etc. That very simple exercise (that takes a whole lot
| of energy and zest!) changes the horse's entire perception of the terms
| between him and me. I don't *allow* the horse to eat until *I* say its ok 
or
|
| I invite him to eat. If a horse rushes me and is rude then they're gonna
| have to back off real fast and start runnin'. If a horse EVER aggresses me
| then that horse is gonna think, within 3 seconds of its rudeness and for 
at
| least 3 seconds, that I am going to KILL it. I don't hit, I don't whip, I
| don't use any physical force like that cause I know I'll lose someday and
| then I won't be working w/horse any more! In fact, I won't be working,
| period, cause I'll be under the ground by 6 feet. But that horse that
| aggresses me has no questions in its mind that I am going to have his
| carcass on my dinner plate if he doesn't move away from me and FAST. The
| only time I will use whatever I have handy to protect myself is when I 
know
| that horse means to kill me. Then that horse will get a whip or bucket or
| whatever it takes to get him off me. I've had to do that just a couple of
| times in over 40 years. Other than that, I guess I have a pretty strong
| assertive manner that lets them know they're not to mess with me. But 
that's
|
| hard for a woman 88 years old who obviously can't run after a horse.
|
| BTW .. this is one reason that horses make AWESOME therapists!! Equine
| Assisted Therapy is one of the BEST therpies for learning to set your
| boundaries and how to say "no". !!  *grin*
|
| Anyway ... much longer than I intended. Apologies for being so long 
winded.
| Sad and unfortunate situation. I hope the woman recovers quickly and best
| that the horse was sent to slaughter as there are not many people who can
| deal with situations like this without proper teaching and training. It's
| usually more about teaching the humans than it is the horse ...
|
| :) -- Gwen

From:	IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com"  "Janice Willard" 11-MAY-2006 10:02:29.54
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Explanation for mare Attack

I find it interesting that no one so far has mentioned the emotional state 
of the mare.  She was hungry. She was in a location where she normally would 
have been fed, but there was no food there. Person came bearing food that 
she could smell (cat food, especially the cheap stuff normally given to barn 
cats, has a large percentage of corn in it), so she was anticipating food 
and saw food brought into her environment.  Person walked right past her and 
gave her none of it which frustrated her and made her angry. Being young and 
more likely to express her emotions, she kicked at the barn which was the 
barrier (i.e. where the food had gone).  The person came out, still smelling 
of food but not feeding mare.  Again frustrated, she kicked again in anger, 
this time at the person, just as she would have kicked at another horse when 
angry. Were she older, she would have learned to not demonstrate normal 
horse emotional responses to humans.  But the squeal-kick is a pretty 
typical intra-horse behavior. They do this with each other all the time when 
one horse has transgressed on another. Were the woman a horse, it likely 
would not have resulted in much injury.

It is interesting that emotions are left so easily out of the equation.  I 
remember reading a psychology book about learning.  This book was taking the 
"Black box" line, that what the animal thought was not important, what the 
animal did was a result of reinforcement history.  Then the author added 
this interesting comment.  I was reading the section where the book was 
describing extinction trials.  This was after the rats had learned to run a 
maze and been rewarded every time at the end box.  Then they begin the 
extinction phase of the experiment where they put the hungry (but they would 
never say hungry, they would say 24 hour food deprived) rat into the maze 
where it anticipates getting fed (of course they would never say that the 
animal anticipates the food--the rat is simply running fast and making 
eating motions with its mouth because of the learning from previous 
reinforcements) at the end of the maze. According to this author, when the 
rats get to the reward box and find no food, they scream and bite at the 
hands of the researchers who try to remove them from the empty reward box. 
The author mentioned that "researchers all know to wear heavy leather gloves 
on the days when they are doing extinction trials."  When I read this 
section in the book, I was astonished.  Here was ample evidence that the 
animals were expressing an emotional response.  The psychology of learning 
researchers all know that the rats will express an emotional response 
because they put gloves on their hands.  The very evidence was on their 
hands, yet they continue to deny that the animal's behavior is a anything 
but a result of its lifelong reinforcement history.

So for me the reason for this mare's behavior was likely she was hungry, she 
anticipated being fed, she was frustrated, she was angry and she responded 
to the woman as one angry horse would respond to another horse who had 
prevented it from getting to its food.   It is too bad that the woman got 
injured and the horse is now dead because we fail to recognize that animal 
have emotions that influence their behavior.

Janice

Janice Willard, DVM, MS
Moscow ID USA



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gwenyth Santagate" <santa@kersur.net>
To: <applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 7:19 AM
Subject: RE: Explanation for mare Attack


> Hi there ... I guess since this is my livelihood (Equine Behavioral
> Specialist) I'll pipe in. *grin*
>
> First, yes, .. young mare. Young mare who needed to learn her place in
> the "pecking order" of the herd. Older woman who was/is unable to assert 
> her
> position of "Leader" within the herd. Horses HAVE to have a
> designated "Leader" ... if the human does not take up that position then 
> the
> horse HAS to by "design". Note I use the word "Leader" vs. "Boss" although
> Boss is good if the human involved does not care whether or not a working
> partnership is established with the particular horse.There are both 
> leaders
> and bosses in equine herds; boss mare=alpha=inconsistent, inconsiderate,
> untrustworthy, unpredictable BUT able to head up a herd of hundreds and 
> keep
> them well informed as to where to go, how fast to move, when to eat, what 
> to
> eat, when and what to drink, etc. Then ... in each sub-group there
> are "Lead" mares - those mares to whom the others in the 'family' look to
> for guidance and safety. One who is assertive yet predictable (won't kick,
> bite or strike without provocation and real good provocation at that),
> trustworthy, able to befriend others in family group, nurturing, etc. etc.
> Just think in terms of the worst descriptives for "boss" and the
> descriptives for a good Leader. Those are the differences.
> When trying to establish a working, amiable partnership with a horse it is
> preferable to take up the Lead mare position so the horse will trust the
> human and look to that person for safety. However, when dealing in a herd
> where one is merely a caretaker or feeder being a "Boss" is OK ... it
> certainly lets the horses know just where they stand, who the boss really 
> is
> and they ain't gonna mess with the boss mare!
>
> Secondly, the woman had food. Albeit it was cat food but the filly didn't
> care ... it was food. For the woman to go ahead and not ALLOW the filly to
> get food, she was, in effect, being ultimately RUDE to the filly is as 
> much
> as the woman had not, obviously, established either her leadership or
> alpha/boss position with that filly. That means the FILLY was the boss or
> leader. The BOSS is the one who ALWAYS eats first and demands that 
> 'respect'
> of others. No one eats until the BOSS says its OK to eat and no one eats
> what the BOSS wants. Then, turning one's back on a lead mare is somewhat 
> OK
> but turning your backside to an alpha is a huge breach in the social 
> conduct
> acceptable in a herd. Too close to an alpha, turn your back and you risk
> getting kicked up the ying yang which is just what happened. It may well
> have been true that the filly would have trampled the woman had she been
> knocked down. This ultra aggressive behavior actually tells me that the
> filly is actually herd alpha material rather than lead mare. I own
> an "alpha" mare; we have a strong understanding and mutual respect. I am
> able to get her to move away from me at any given time however, I MUST
> remain 'assertive' and never "aggressive" with her. There's a HUGE
> difference in the equine world between these two attitudes and intents.
> Aggressiveness begets aggressiveness while assertiveness begets respect 
> and
> compliance. This mare's entire facial expression changes if someone gets
> too 'aggressive' with her. "If looks could kill." That's my mare, all 
> over.
> If someone doesn't listen then they surely risk getting the broadside of 
> the
> brush handle from her! *grin* We both know just how far to push one
> another's buttons as I've had her for 12 years now and she actually was
> known as a "killer" mare. She now is as gentle as a kitten with children 
> who
> have no ulterior intent but with adults who have strong intent in an
> aggressive manner, she gives fair warning but is quick to react to those
> attitudes.
>
> On the other hand, if this filly is the low man on the totem pole, so to
> speak, within the EQUINE herd then her low rank will also be exhibited 
> with
> extreme aggressiveness especially with one who is deemed lower ranking 
> than
> she. It is usually the low ranking horses that do the most physical
> fighting. The leaders assume their positions in the herd merely with their
> attitude - their aura, if you will. Stallions will fight physically but
> rarely are there fights to death between them. The boss/alpha mares are 
> just
> plain ornery and nasty to low ranking horses. Its their job to protect the
> entire herd and they just don't have the time to coddle any one horse. 
> It's
> rare to see an alpha buddy up with another horse. They are usually loners.
>
> My assessment of the recorded incident is the filly was asserting her 
> place
> in the herd and since the woman did not "listen" respectfully and "give" 
> to
> the filly; likewise she did not establish her position in the herd by
> running the filly off in no uncertain terms, the filly reacted to the
> woman's turning her backside to her and too that as a 'dis' as well as a
> challenge. Obviously, humans lose in this type of situation where they are
> not able to go after such a horse in no uncertain terms of who REALLY is
> the "boss" or, the leader.
>
> I teach every horse that I work with to back off and not invade MY space
> until "invited" to do so. If they do, they have to either back off very
> quickly or if giving me an 'attitude' then they are run off and have to 
> keep
> running until *I* give them permission to stop. *I* will direct their feet
> and tell *them* how fast to move, where to move, when to stop, when to 
> turn,
> when to keep going, etc. That very simple exercise (that takes a whole lot
> of energy and zest!) changes the horse's entire perception of the terms
> between him and me. I don't *allow* the horse to eat until *I* say its ok 
> or
> I invite him to eat. If a horse rushes me and is rude then they're gonna
> have to back off real fast and start runnin'. If a horse EVER aggresses me
> then that horse is gonna think, within 3 seconds of its rudeness and for 
> at
> least 3 seconds, that I am going to KILL it. I don't hit, I don't whip, I
> don't use any physical force like that cause I know I'll lose someday and
> then I won't be working w/horse any more! In fact, I won't be working,
> period, cause I'll be under the ground by 6 feet. But that horse that
> aggresses me has no questions in its mind that I am going to have his
> carcass on my dinner plate if he doesn't move away from me and FAST. The
> only time I will use whatever I have handy to protect myself is when I 
> know
> that horse means to kill me. Then that horse will get a whip or bucket or
> whatever it takes to get him off me. I've had to do that just a couple of
> times in over 40 years. Other than that, I guess I have a pretty strong
> assertive manner that lets them know they're not to mess with me. But 
> that's
> hard for a woman 88 years old who obviously can't run after a horse.
>
> BTW .. this is one reason that horses make AWESOME therapists!! Equine
> Assisted Therapy is one of the BEST therpies for learning to set your
> boundaries and how to say "no". !!  *grin*
>
> Anyway ... much longer than I intended. Apologies for being so long 
> winded.
> Sad and unfortunate situation. I hope the woman recovers quickly and best
> that the horse was sent to slaughter as there are not many people who can
> deal with situations like this without proper teaching and training. It's
> usually more about teaching the humans than it is the horse ...
>
> :) -- Gwen
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marine Cassoret [mailto:marine.bedoucha@wanadoo.fr]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 8:11 PM
> To: joseph.stookey@usask.ca
> Cc: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Subject: Re: Explanation for mare attack
>
> Hello Joseph,
>
> I am not working specifically on horses, so the response below is un-
> scientific, just based on my experience.  I'd love to hear from anyone 
> who
> would come up with a scientific explanation.
>
>  I don't see it as an abnormal behavior, just the accumulation of several
> factors. Here are my  two cents:
>
> -This horse is (was) young, not saddle broke, full of energy. I'd say on 
> top
> of this she lacks maybe a little respect towards people? This is a 
> behavior
> I've seen in "teenage" horses (only halter broke). They may try to play or
> react aggressively with humans like they'd do with horses. (Andy, if you
> read this, what's your opinion?). My guess is there would have been signs 
> of
> her temper long before this incident happened that were just overlooked /
> ignored.
>
> -The mare started this when the lady entered the corral, and the lady did
> not do anything. I'd have pushed the horse away, have her respect my space
> (not sure if slapping her on the nose would have helped, she may have 
> turned
> around and kicked anyway).
>
> (Maybe her mother's status and her own affected her reaction as well, 
> being
> a more "dominant" type?)
>
> -The horses were anticipating food, which I am sure increased the level of
> excitement. The human who entered the corral was not bringing any, to make
> matters worse.
>
> I'll be looking forward to hearing about other list members'
> comments. But I am really not sure that is was "abnormal". Just a very 
> pushy
> horse.
>
> Marine
>
>
> Le 10 mai 06 à 17:56, joseph stookey a écrit :
>
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>> I am soliciting comments, suggestions or explanations from anyone who
>> cares to respond, regarding a case of a mare attacking her owner.  The
>> owner is an 88 year old woman (Mrs H.).  In March of this year the 3
>> year old mare intentionally, whirled and kicked Mrs. H 3 times on her
>> lower legs.  Mrs H has been around horses all her life and describes
>> the attack as "her kicking and squealing resembled a mare being teased
>> by a stallion"
>> The mare was raised on this particular farm, weaned as a young filly.
>> They isolated her from the group when she was weaned and started her
>> on an oat diet as a young filly.  She was halter broke, group housed
>> with other mares on pasture during the summers and supplemented with
>> an oat ration during each winter.  This particular mare and her mother
>> were both fairly high in their dominance rank within the herd.  On the
>> morning of attack Mrs H arrived at the farm and the group of mares has
>> already been turned out of the stables.  She had assumed her son had
>> fed the mares, but he had only turned them out into the corral.
>> Normally feed was set out in the corral before the mares were turned
>> out.  Mrs H entered the corral and walked through the group of unfed
>> horses and into the stable.  The mare had followed her across the
>> corral and tried
>> to nose her head into the pail of cat food the woman was holding.
>> Mrs. H ignored the mare and entered the stable and closed the door so
>> the mare would not follow.  The mare turned and kicked the barn twice.
>> Mrs H ignored the kicking, but wondered why she would kick at the
>> barn.  When Mrs H exited the barn and walked through the pen, the mare
>> trotted after her, then whirled, squealed and began the kicking.
>> Luckily Mrs. H was close enough to the edge of the corral and able to
>> get herself out of the pen.  She thinks the mare may have killed her
>> had she collapsed in the pen.
>>
>> Any idea what might be going on here?  Mrs. H wrote to me asking for
>> my "explanation" of the event and I owe her some response, but I
>> really don't have much of an explanation as to why this may have
>> happened.  Could a change in the feeding routine result in this kind
>> of behaviour?  I am really a cattle, sheep and swine kind of guy and
>> do not have a clue what is going on here.  If you have any ideas or
>> understanding of this case based on what I wrote, please let me know.
>> I do not have any more info, history or background other than what I
>> already provided; all the information I have on this case is already
>> before you.  The horse was sold for slaughter, so the woman is no
>> longer in danger, but she still wonders what caused the attack.
>>
>> Looking forward to hearing from some of you.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> --
>> Joseph M. Stookey
>> Professor of Applied Ethology
>> Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of
>> Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan
>> 52 Campus Drive
>> Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
>> Canada S7N 5B4
>>
>> Tel 306-966-7154
>> Fax 306-966-7159
>>
>>
>
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> -- 
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>
> 



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From:	IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 11-MAY-2006 12:04:28.46
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	[Fwd: FW: Irish ban on electroimmobilisation]

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Hi Everyone,

Carol Petherick asked me to forward this message to the list (she seems 
to have trouble posting it herself). 

Send your responses to Carol or the list (I think she can still read the 
messages).

Joe

-- 
Joseph M. Stookey
Professor of Applied Ethology
Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences
Western College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Saskatchewan
52 Campus Drive
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Canada S7N 5B4

Tel 306-966-7154
Fax 306-966-7159


--Boundary_(ID_z8OH8gdsRjLoHpc7edZn2Q)
Content-type: message/rfc822; name="FW: Irish ban on electroimmobilisation"

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Hi Joe
I just tried sending this to the ethology list, but it bounced!  I used
the address I always used, but the error message said the address was
unknown.  Will you post for me please?


Carol

Carol Petherick
Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
Department of Primary Industries & Fisheries
Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 1484
Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au



> ______________________________________________ 
> From: 	Petherick, Carol  
> Sent:	Thursday, 11 May 2006 8:51 AM
> To:	ethology
> Subject:	Irish ban on electroimmobilisation
> 
> All
> I am wondering if anybody can provide more details on the above.  I
> have been e-mailed a couple of announcements about this, one of which
> states: "The ban comes following a recommendation from the Scientific
> Advisory Committee on Animal Health and Welfare, which had examined
> all aspects of this issue".  
> Can anybody point me in the direction of a report from SACAHW, or the
> scientific basis/research that allowed the committee to make this
> recommendation?
> 
> I have been unable to find much (good) research on
> electroimmobilisation in cattle (or other livestock) that would allow
> assessment of its welfare consequences, but I've evidently missed
> something.
> 
> Kind regards 
> 
> Carol
> 
> "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the
> way its animals are treated"
> Mahatma Gandhi
> 
> Carol Petherick
> Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
> Department of Primary Industries & Fisheries
> PO Box 6014, Central Qld Mail Centre
> N. Rockhampton
> Queensland 4702
> Australia
> 
> Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 1484
> Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au
> Website www.dpi.qld.gov.au  Call Centre 13 25 23
> 
> 
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<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Hi Joe</FONT>

<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">I just tried sending this to the ethology list, but it bounced!&nbsp; I used the address I always used, but the error message said the address was unknown.&nbsp; Will you post for me please?</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=4 FACE="Monotype Corsiva">Carol</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Carol Petherick</FONT></B>

<BR><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)</FONT>

<BR><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Department of</FONT><B> <FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Primary Industries &amp; Fisheries</FONT></B>

<BR><B><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Telephone</FONT></B><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> +61 (0)7 4936 0331;</FONT><B> <FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Fax</FONT></B><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> +61 (0)7 4936 1484</FONT>

<BR><B><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Email</FONT></B><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">______________________________________________ </FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">From: &nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">Petherick, Carol&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">Thursday, 11 May 2006 8:51 AM</FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">ethology</FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">Irish ban on electroimmobilisation</FONT></SPAN>
</P>

<P><SPAN LANG="en-au"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">All</FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-au"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">I am wondering if anybody can provide more details on the above.&nbsp; I have been e-mailed a couple of announcements about this, one of which states: &quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Times New Roman">The ban comes following a recommendation from the Scientific Advisory Commit<WBR>tee on Animal Health and Welfare, which had exam<WBR>ined all aspects of this issue&quot;.&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN LANG="en-au"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Can anybody point me in the direction of a report from SACAHW, or the scientific basis/research that allowed the committee to make this recommendation?</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN LANG="en-au"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">I have been unable to find much (good) research on electroimmobilisation in cattle (or other livestock) that would allow assessment of its welfare consequences, but I've evidently missed something.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN LANG="en-au"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Kind regards </FONT></SPAN>
</P>

<P><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=4 FACE="Monotype Corsiva">Carol</FONT></SPAN>
</P>

<P><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><I><FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE=2 FACE="Comic Sans MS">&quot;The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated&quot;</FONT></I></B></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><I><FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE=2 FACE="Comic Sans MS">Mahatma Gandhi</FONT></I></SPAN>
</P>

<P><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Carol Petherick</FONT></B></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)</FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Department of</FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Primary Industries &amp; Fisheries</FONT></B></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">PO Box 6014, Central Qld Mail Centre</FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">N. Rockhampton</FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Queensland 4702</FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Australia</FONT></SPAN>
</P>

<P><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Telephone</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> +61 (0)7 4936 0331;</FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Fax</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> +61 (0)7 4936 1484</FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Email</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au</FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Website</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> </FONT></SPAN><A HREF="file://www.dpi.qld.gov.au"><SPAN LANG="en-us"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">www.dpi.qld.gov.au</FONT></U></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">&nbsp;</FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Call Centr</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">e 13 25 23</FONT></SPAN>
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From:	IN%"D.Lee@mcri.ac.uk"  "Diane Lee" 12-MAY-2006 02:28:02.23
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Explanation for mare Attack

"It is interesting that emotions are left so easily out of the equation."

"It is too bad that the woman got
injured and the horse is now dead because we fail to recognize that animal
have emotions that influence their behavior."

I agree, Janice. I was alarmed to read in the original post that this mare
was immediately slaughtered. How sad!

Diane