From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 4-MAY-2007 09:43:14.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: stereotypic behaviour of farm animals Dear all, Does any of you know of a website with a video clip of stereotypic behaviour in a farm animal (any species is fine)? Or alternatively is willing to share a video clip which is not too large to send by e-mail? I have plenty of lab mice stereotypies to trade, but don't think they will convince the farm animal science students to which I will speak next week ;-) Best regards, Anna Olsson Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Laboratory Animal Science group http://www.ibmc.up.pt http://ethos.no.sapo.pt Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 11-MAY-2007 09:28:54.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: Veterinarians as welfare agents It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they require education in animal welfare to be effective agents. So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the natural choice? Please, if you have a point which may inflame another person or group of people, please email me your thoughts privately. Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Humane Society International - Trade 2100 L St. NW Washington, DC 20037 USA jlanier@hsi.org (240) 888 1217 cell (202) 778 6148 Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 11-MAY-2007 09:40:33.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Hi there Unless a veterinarian is specifically qualified I do not know why they would fill the blanket role of representing animal welfare (I would say the same of ethologists, PhD holders or any other specific discipline or professional group). Vets have animal-related training and experience and many have gone on to become expert in animal welfare either through practical experience or further training (or both). I would see this assumption (vets=the only welfare experts) as being on the decline rather than a next generation attitude. The veterinary perspective is a key aspect that needs to be represented but does not encompass animal welfare in general, as witness the emergence of interdisciplinary animal welfare/animal welfare science. regards Emily On 11/05/07, Jennifer Lanier wrote: > > > > It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of animal > welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities such as > political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 11-MAY-2007 09:55:04.66 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Dear all, The study of animal welfare is a multidisciplinary endeavour and if we add the ambition to bring about changes in animal welfare in society the endeavour become even more multidisciplinary. Veterinarians are experts on the health and disease (particularly the physical) of animals. Health and disease are important for animal welfare. But so are nutrition, genetics and housing (the expertise of animal scientists) and behaviour and natural history (the expertise of biologists/ethologists). Philosophers, lawyers, social scientists have additional expertise that is important when it comes to policy-making. Members of all these professions can become more aware of the aspects of other professions: a vet can learn more about ethology, an animal scientist more about ethics etc etc. But hardly to the extent that they can replace each other. Besides, each course/profession tends to imprint the people working in it to an extent that it takes quite some time (if it is at all possible) to get around: you aquire a mode of thinking that is the one of your profession. For that reason, I think advocating veterinarians as the sole (or even prime) animal welfare agents is just as dangerous as advocating ethologists or animal scientists or philosophers in that same position. To take an illustrative example, the now endangered Swedish Animal Welfare Agency was in my view a very important step towards recognizing the importance of bringing together the expertise of biologists, animal scientists and veterinarians. This as opposed to the classic situation (and the previous in Sweden), where animal welfare on the state / governmental level was all a veterinary matter. To illustrate the irony of the veterinary monopoly: recently I applied for a license to transfer six laboratory rats from our animal facility to a school project.While I hold a degree in animal science and a PhD in ethology and have ten years' research experience of animal behaviour, housing and welfare, I needed a veterinarian (an expert on animal health and disease, not on behaviour, not on animal housing) to state that the welfare of these rats would be OK in their new environment. This said, looking back on my own research, there have certainly been moments when the expertise of a vet would have added much value to the way that I have looked at welfare. Which is all to conclude that we all need each other and should work together! Regards, Anna Olsson Animal scientist, PhD ethology, growing interest in ethics *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 11-05-2007 at 11:28 Jennifer Lanier wrote: >It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of >animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities >such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, >international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although >veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they >require education in animal welfare to be effective agents. > > > >So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this >trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal >scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this >mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For >relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how >much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the natural >choice? > > > >Please, if you have a point which may inflame another person or group of >people, please email me your thoughts privately. > > > > > >Jennifer > > > >Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. > >Director of Scientific Programs > >Humane Society International - Trade > >2100 L St. NW > >Washington, DC 20037 USA > >jlanier@hsi.org > >(240) 888 1217 cell > >(202) 778 6148 > > > >Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Laboratory Animal Science group http://www.ibmc.up.pt http://ethos.no.sapo.pt Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 11-MAY-2007 10:46:08.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Hi Jennifer, I'm hoping my thoughts are stimulating but not inflammatory, so I'll take the chance on posting it to the whole list! I enjoyed Emily and Anna's thoughts and this is also a bit in that vein. While I agree that current veterinary training, in the US at least, may not qualify veterinarians in an educational sense to be animal welfare agents, there are a few realities to consider. 1) Regardless of the views of the scientific community on this matter, the public holds veterinarians to be the most knowledgable professionals in relation to animals. This means that the public expects veterinarians to know EVERYTHING about animals--whether they have actually been educated or trained in a particularl area or not. In the eyes of the public, vets are likely already seen as THE animal welfare agents. Let's face it, professors (and other professionals) in animal science, animal behavior and animal welfare welfare (or other professionals), who may better educated and trained in animal welfare aren't always very publically visible and don't have such a universal job description as veterinarian. Perhaps given the public perception (and the likely similar perception of many in government), veterinarians are a logical choice. 2) Many veterinarians may also believe that since they understand animal health and work to improve it that they are qualified animal welfare agents. This does not mean they are arrogant. It may simply be that they do not conceive that animal welfare goes beyond health to include such aspects as natural living, affective states and basic biological functioning. When I teach veterinary students about animal welfare, this is always the first piece that I address--that animal welfare is multidisciplinary and multifactorial and just because the vet regards diseaase free as the most important component does not mean that the dog feels the same way. 3) Many vets are eager to learn more about animal welfare and would willingly do so given the opportunity. Vet schools are currently expanding their alrady packed curricula in this direction. Gail Golab will likely have more real knowledge to add here, but I currently assist in a new course at MSU called Ethical and Animal Welfare Issues in the Veterinary Profession. While these courses may not teach the topic in as much depth as some of us would like, it is a great start. Maybe the education needs to be required starting at the undergraduate level or perhaps as an emphasis (of course I think animal behavior should also be required indpendent of welfare but certainly in conjunction with it). A rotation or externship might also be a possible idea--it might vary from school to school how it could be incorporated. There's my two cents. Cheers, Janice Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB Research Assistant Professor Animal Behavior and Welfare Group 1287C Anthony Hall Department of Animal Science Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 517-432-8212 office 517-432-1396 lab 517-353-1699 fax Jennifer Lanier writes: > It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of > animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities > such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, > international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although > veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they > require education in animal welfare to be effective agents. > > > > So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this > trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal > scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this > mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For > relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how > much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the natural > choice? > > > > Please, if you have a point which may inflame another person or group of > people, please email me your thoughts privately. > > > > > > Jennifer > > > > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. > > Director of Scientific Programs > > Humane Society International - Trade > > 2100 L St. NW > > Washington, DC 20037 USA > > jlanier@hsi.org > > (240) 888 1217 cell > > (202) 778 6148 > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 11-MAY-2007 13:28:20.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: Svar: Veterinarians as welfare agents Hi Jennifer, I will try to be polite and I do not mean to provoke, but from experience = I know that some people find what I am about to say very provocative = (usually vets ;-) - and I rush to add: I am a vet myself).=20 Therefore, first to those who may feel provoked - please understand that I = am trying to raise awareness amongst both vets and others about the = shortcomings. These are obvious to e.g."non-vet animal science people", = and I see no point in denial. Instead I suggest ways forward to educate = and coorporate, in order to obtain what I assume we all want - welfare = assessments that are based on broad and thorough knowledge. My basis for originally forming an opinion on this issue is that I have = degrees in both veterinary medicine and applied ethology. And there was = very little overlap between those two educations. I recently analysed the = approaches of veterinarians to welfare assessment in follow-up studies = from small animal practice*. The results indicate that vets are primarily = focusing on health and function and less on general behaviour and mental = states. Others working on this issue have reached similar conclusions. One = way forward could be to include (more) ethology in the veterinary = curriculum. At least enough for vets to know that this is not something = you will know all about after a few weeks' course. Another way is to = encourage vets involved in animal welfare assessment to get further = education. A third way is for vets to work together with e.g. ethologists, = i.e. rather than trying to personally "know it all" to work with others to = cover it all. There are probably other ways too. One of the bigger obstacles against moving forward is the attitude stated = in a newsletter from the Federation of Veterinarians of Europe (2005): = =91=91only the veterinary profession possesses the knowledge and skills = necessary for the assessment of animal welfare, the identification of the = causes of poor welfare and the recommendations to correct it=92=92.=20 I don't know how representative this is of vets' attitudes, and personally = I don't agree. As a statement from a European veterinary organisation, I = find that it reflects a quite disturbing disregard for the knowledge and = experience held in other fields of expertise, e.g. that of applied = ethology. Certainly, it does not promote mutual respect and coorporation. So why this self image and perception of vets as those who know all/most = about animal welfare? In addition to the points made by Janice Siegford, = my guess is that it dates back to the times when vets indeed were those = who generally knew the most about animals. But today the amount of = knowledge seems endless and peoples' knowledge is specialised. This need = not be a problem as long as everyone acknowledge their limitations, = respect other people's expertise and work together in mulitdisciplinary = fields such as animal welfare. And as long as those asking for professional= advise realise that this is a necessary step to ensure the best welfare = assessments. Stine * Stine B. Christiansen and Bj=F6rn Forkman: Assessment of animal welfare = in a veterinary context - A call for ethologists=20 (Applied Animal Behaviour Science - in press, corrected proof available = on-line)=20 NB: ny/new e-mail: sbc@life.ku.dk=20 =20 Stine B. Christiansen Cand.med.vet. (DVM), MSc, PhD-stud. Det Dyreetiske R=E5d (fgl.sekr.)/The Danish Animal Ethics Council (scient. = secr.) Center for Bioetik og Risikovurdering/Centre for Bioethics and Risk = Assessment K=F8benhavns Universitet/University of Copenhagen Det Biovidenskabelige Fakultet for F=F8devarer, Veterin=E6rmedicin og = Naturressourcer/Faculty of Life Sciences Bioetik/Bioethics Gr=F8nneg=E5rdsvej 8 1870 Frederiksberg C Copenhagen Denmark tlf./ph.: +45 3528 3075 fax: +45 3528 3022 e-mail: sbc@life.ku.dk=20 >>> Jennifer Lanier 11-05-2007 17:28 >>> It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they require education in animal welfare to be effective agents.=20 =20 So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the natural choice? =20 Please, if you have a point which may inflame another person or group of people, please email me your thoughts privately.=20 =20 =20 Jennifer =20 Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Humane Society International - Trade 2100 L St. NW Washington, DC 20037 USA jlanier@hsi.org=20 (240) 888 1217 cell (202) 778 6148 =20 =20 =20 Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online = community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/joi= n . From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 11-MAY-2007 14:02:01.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca", IN%"sbc@life.ku.dk" "Stine B Christiansen" CC: Subj: RE: Svar: Veterinarians as welfare agents Hi, Some interesting work related to this topic of discussion was also =20 presented at the regional ISAE conference in Vancouver, B.C. last =20 June, and brings up some additional points of consideration. Please =20 see the abstract by C.A.Morgan (pg. 22 of the proceedings), for =20 further reference. Michelle J. Quoting Stine B Christiansen : > Hi Jennifer, > > I will try to be polite and I do not mean to provoke, but from =20 > experience I know that some people find what I am about to say very =20 > provocative (usually vets ;-) - and I rush to add: I am a vet myself). > > Therefore, first to those who may feel provoked - please understand =20 > that I am trying to raise awareness amongst both vets and others =20 > about the shortcomings. These are obvious to e.g."non-vet animal =20 > science people", and I see no point in denial. Instead I suggest =20 > ways forward to educate and coorporate, in order to obtain what I =20 > assume we all want - welfare assessments that are based on broad and =20 > thorough knowledge. > > My basis for originally forming an opinion on this issue is that I =20 > have degrees in both veterinary medicine and applied ethology. And =20 > there was very little overlap between those two educations. I =20 > recently analysed the approaches of veterinarians to welfare =20 > assessment in follow-up studies from small animal practice*. The =20 > results indicate that vets are primarily focusing on health and =20 > function and less on general behaviour and mental states. Others =20 > working on this issue have reached similar conclusions. One way =20 > forward could be to include (more) ethology in the veterinary =20 > curriculum. At least enough for vets to know that this is not =20 > something you will know all about after a few weeks' course. Another =20 > way is to encourage vets involved in animal welfare assessment to =20 > get further education. A third way is for vets to work together with =20 > e.g. ethologists, i.e. rather than trying to personally "know it =20 > all" to work with others to cover it all. There are probably other =20 > ways too. > > One of the bigger obstacles against moving forward is the attitude =20 > stated in a newsletter from the Federation of Veterinarians of =20 > Europe (2005): =91=91only the veterinary profession possesses the =20 > knowledge and skills necessary for the assessment of animal welfare, =20 > the identification of the causes of poor welfare and the =20 > recommendations to correct it=92=92. > > I don't know how representative this is of vets' attitudes, and =20 > personally I don't agree. As a statement from a European veterinary =20 > organisation, I find that it reflects a quite disturbing disregard =20 > for the knowledge and experience held in other fields of expertise, =20 > e.g. that of applied ethology. Certainly, it does not promote mutual =20 > respect and coorporation. > > So why this self image and perception of vets as those who know =20 > all/most about animal welfare? In addition to the points made by =20 > Janice Siegford, my guess is that it dates back to the times when =20 > vets indeed were those who generally knew the most about animals. =20 > But today the amount of knowledge seems endless and peoples' =20 > knowledge is specialised. This need not be a problem as long as =20 > everyone acknowledge their limitations, respect other people's =20 > expertise and work together in mulitdisciplinary fields such as =20 > animal welfare. And as long as those asking for professional advise =20 > realise that this is a necessary step to ensure the best welfare =20 > assessments. > > Stine > > * Stine B. Christiansen and Bj=F6rn Forkman: Assessment of animal =20 > welfare in a veterinary context - A call for ethologists > (Applied Animal Behaviour Science - in press, corrected proof =20 > available on-line) > > > NB: ny/new e-mail: sbc@life.ku.dk > > Stine B. Christiansen > Cand.med.vet. (DVM), MSc, PhD-stud. > > Det Dyreetiske R=E5d (fgl.sekr.)/The Danish Animal Ethics Council =20 > (scient. secr.) > Center for Bioetik og Risikovurdering/Centre for Bioethics and Risk =20 > Assessment > > K=F8benhavns Universitet/University of Copenhagen > Det Biovidenskabelige Fakultet for F=F8devarer, Veterin=E6rmedicin og =20 > Naturressourcer/Faculty of Life Sciences > Bioetik/Bioethics > Gr=F8nneg=E5rdsvej 8 > 1870 Frederiksberg C > Copenhagen > Denmark > > tlf./ph.: +45 3528 3075 > fax: +45 3528 3022 > e-mail: sbc@life.ku.dk > > > >>>> Jennifer Lanier 11-05-2007 17:28 >>> > It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of > animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities > such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, > international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although > veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they > require education in animal welfare to be effective agents. > > > > So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this > trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal > scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this > mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For > relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how > much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the natural > choice? > > > > Please, if you have a point which may inflame another person or group of > people, please email me your thoughts privately. > > > > > > Jennifer > > > > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. > > Director of Scientific Programs > > Humane Society International - Trade > > 2100 L St. NW > > Washington, DC 20037 USA > > jlanier@hsi.org > > (240) 888 1217 cell > > (202) 778 6148 > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our =20 > online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to =20 > www.hsus.org/join . > > From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" 11-MAY-2007 16:37:08.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Janice and All Colleagues- Thanks, Janice, for your interesting perspective- Members of the veterinary profession and the several scientific discplines pertinent to kept-animal welfare should be educated on the lay of the land, as you have described it, and then encouraged to affirmatively promote for the benefit of all people as well as all animals (don't forget the animals!) the notion that studying and assessing animal welfare is, realistically, a multidiscplinary and interdisciplinary endeavor- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 12:45:57 -0400 >From: Janice M Siegford >Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > >Hi Jennifer, >I'm hoping my thoughts are stimulating but not inflammatory, so I'll take >the chance on posting it to the whole list! I enjoyed Emily and Anna's >thoughts and this is also a bit in that vein. > >While I agree that current veterinary training, in the US at least, may not >qualify veterinarians in an educational sense to be animal welfare agents, >there are a few realities to consider. > >1) Regardless of the views of the scientific community on this matter, the >public holds veterinarians to be the most knowledgable professionals in >relation to animals. This means that the public expects veterinarians to >know EVERYTHING about animals--whether they have actually been educated or >trained in a particularl area or not. In the eyes of the public, vets are >likely already seen as THE animal welfare agents. Let's face it, professors >(and other professionals) in animal science, animal behavior and animal >welfare welfare (or other professionals), who may better educated and >trained in animal welfare aren't always very publically visible and don't >have such a universal job description as veterinarian. Perhaps given the >public perception (and the likely similar perception of many in government), >veterinarians are a logical choice. > >2) Many veterinarians may also believe that since they understand animal >health and work to improve it that they are qualified animal welfare agents. >This does not mean they are arrogant. It may simply be that they do not >conceive that animal welfare goes beyond health to include such aspects as >natural living, affective states and basic biological functioning. When I >teach veterinary students about animal welfare, this is always the first >piece that I address--that animal welfare is multidisciplinary and >multifactorial and just because the vet regards diseaase free as the most >important component does not mean that the dog feels the same way. > >3) Many vets are eager to learn more about animal welfare and would >willingly do so given the opportunity. Vet schools are currently expanding >their alrady packed curricula in this direction. Gail Golab will likely have >more real knowledge to add here, but I currently assist in a new course at >MSU called Ethical and Animal Welfare Issues in the Veterinary Profession. >While these courses may not teach the topic in as much depth as some of us >would like, it is a great start. Maybe the education needs to be required >starting at the undergraduate level or perhaps as an emphasis (of course I >think animal behavior should also be required indpendent of welfare but >certainly in conjunction with it). A rotation or externship might also be a >possible idea--it might vary from school to school how it could be >incorporated. > >There's my two cents. > >Cheers, >Janice > >Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB >Research Assistant Professor >Animal Behavior and Welfare Group >1287C Anthony Hall >Department of Animal Science >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >517-432-8212 office >517-432-1396 lab >517-353-1699 fax > > >Jennifer Lanier writes: > >> It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of >> animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities >> such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, >> international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although >> veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they >> require education in animal welfare to be effective agents. >> >> >> >> So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this >> trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal >> scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this >> mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For >> relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how >> much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the natural >> choice? >> >> >> >> Please, if you have a point which may inflame another person or group of >> people, please email me your thoughts privately. >> >> >> >> >> >> Jennifer >> >> >> >> Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. >> >> Director of Scientific Programs >> >> Humane Society International - Trade >> >> 2100 L St. NW >> >> Washington, DC 20037 USA >> >> jlanier@hsi.org >> >> (240) 888 1217 cell >> >> (202) 778 6148 >> >> >> >> Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . > > > From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" 11-MAY-2007 16:49:58.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" "applied-ethology network" CC: Subj: Fwd: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents Janice and All Colleagues- Thanks, Janice, for your interesting perspective- Members of the veterinary profession and the several scientific discplines pertinent to kept-animal welfare should be educated on the lay of the land, as you have described it, and then encouraged to affirmatively promote for the benefit of all people as well as all animals (don't forget the animals!) the notion that studying and assessing animal welfare is, realistically, a multidiscplinary and interdisciplinary endeavor- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 12:45:57 -0400 >From: Janice M Siegford >Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > >Hi Jennifer, >I'm hoping my thoughts are stimulating but not inflammatory, so I'll take >the chance on posting it to the whole list! I enjoyed Emily and Anna's >thoughts and this is also a bit in that vein. > >While I agree that current veterinary training, in the US at least, may not >qualify veterinarians in an educational sense to be animal welfare agents, >there are a few realities to consider. > >1) Regardless of the views of the scientific community on this matter, the >public holds veterinarians to be the most knowledgable professionals in >relation to animals. This means that the public expects veterinarians to >know EVERYTHING about animals--whether they have actually been educated or >trained in a particularl area or not. In the eyes of the public, vets are >likely already seen as THE animal welfare agents. Let's face it, professors >(and other professionals) in animal science, animal behavior and animal >welfare welfare (or other professionals), who may better educated and >trained in animal welfare aren't always very publically visible and don't >have such a universal job description as veterinarian. Perhaps given the >public perception (and the likely similar perception of many in government), >veterinarians are a logical choice. > >2) Many veterinarians may also believe that since they understand animal >health and work to improve it that they are qualified animal welfare agents. >This does not mean they are arrogant. It may simply be that they do not >conceive that animal welfare goes beyond health to include such aspects as >natural living, affective states and basic biological functioning. When I >teach veterinary students about animal welfare, this is always the first >piece that I address--that animal welfare is multidisciplinary and >multifactorial and just because the vet regards diseaase free as the most >important component does not mean that the dog feels the same way. > >3) Many vets are eager to learn more about animal welfare and would >willingly do so given the opportunity. Vet schools are currently expanding >their alrady packed curricula in this direction. Gail Golab will likely have >more real knowledge to add here, but I currently assist in a new course at >MSU called Ethical and Animal Welfare Issues in the Veterinary Profession. >While these courses may not teach the topic in as much depth as some of us >would like, it is a great start. Maybe the education needs to be required >starting at the undergraduate level or perhaps as an emphasis (of course I >think animal behavior should also be required indpendent of welfare but >certainly in conjunction with it). A rotation or externship might also be a >possible idea--it might vary from school to school how it could be >incorporated. > >There's my two cents. > >Cheers, >Janice > >Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB >Research Assistant Professor >Animal Behavior and Welfare Group >1287C Anthony Hall >Department of Animal Science >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >517-432-8212 office >517-432-1396 lab >517-353-1699 fax > > >Jennifer Lanier writes: > >> It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of >> animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities >> such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, >> international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although >> veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they >> require education in animal welfare to be effective agents. >> >> >> >> So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this >> trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal >> scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this >> mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For >> relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how >> much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the natural >> choice? >> >> >> >> Please, if you have a point which may inflame another person or group of >> people, please email me your thoughts privately. >> >> >> >> >> >> Jennifer >> >> >> >> Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. >> >> Director of Scientific Programs >> >> Humane Society International - Trade >> >> 2100 L St. NW >> >> Washington, DC 20037 USA >> >> jlanier@hsi.org >> >> (240) 888 1217 cell >> >> (202) 778 6148 >> >> >> >> Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 12-MAY-2007 01:13:33.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Hi everyone, My apologies for the delay in response, but I was out of the office = today, so am only getting to review today's e-mail messages now. And, my = thanks to Janice for pulling me directly into this conversation (that's = meant as a sincere thank you and not a "gee thanks" remark ). = Before I comment I need to provide one caveat--that my response that = follows is a very personal one and, although I work for the AVMA, I am = not, in this case, speaking on behalf of the Association and my comments = should not be taken as such. Based on the posts I have read so far, I think we are all in agreement = that animal welfare is multi-disciplinary. As such, all of those = individuals already mentioned (including ethologists, veterinarians, = animal scientists, ethicists, and public policy experts) contribute = important pieces of the pie, as do others (including, but not limited = to, physiologists, epidemiologists, nutritionists, pathologists, = pscyhologists, neurobiologists, geneticists, and consumers of related = products and services). I believe that when someone makes a serious = commitment to animal welfare (both in terms of its science and its = dialogs, discussions, and debates), that that person must also make a = commitment to seek out, understand, and value the contributions of = others who also have an interest. I've tried to make that commitment and = have found it's paid me back in spades. I value not only the reams of = great information I've obtained from others with like interests, but = also the friendship and support that extend beyond our animal welfare = discussions. Inclusiveness, rather then exclusiveness, can only benefit = the field, its players, and the animals (and I agree with Stan, in = addressing our concerns about "ownership," we can't forget why we're = talking about this in the first place!). I think we also have to be = careful about equating a particular field of study with depth of (or = absence of, for that matter) knowledge about animal welfare--there are = people in a variety of fields that have considerable depth of knowledge = in animal welfare and others in the same fields who do not. In terms of veterinary education in this area, we have great formal = education in some aspects of it (e.g., animal health, production, = physiology) and fewer opportunities, at least for right now, in other = aspects (e.g., behavior, public policy, ethics). Veterinary colleges and = schools have been working hard to improve offerings in the latter, but = as has already been mentioned, veterinary curricula are extremely = crowded and finding space for and developing new courses takes time. = Several colleges are now offering, or have plans to offer in their = veterinary curricula, the type of overview course that Janice describes. = Providers of veterinary continuing education are also working hard at = filling this gap for graduate veterinarians. As far as veterinarians being seen as the "go-to people." There are = several reasons for this, and two immediately come to mind. One is = historical...veterinary medicine has been around for a very long time = (we can find writings on disease back to 2500 BC), so people are used to = coming to us with their "animal problems" (and, at certain times during = our history, their own medical problems). Another is that we are easily = accessible...most of us spend virtually all of our time working directly = with animals and their owners. Because so many people either currently = own, will own, or will come in contact with, an animal or its products = at some point during their lives, they are also very likely to come into = contact with a veterinarian--in addition to accessibility, that gives us = very broad reach. I realize I'm coming at this from the point of the = view of the veterinarian, but I guess I also have a naive hope that = instead of fearing that our reach will allow us to take control, that = our reach might be looked at as an opportunity for everyone concerned = about ensuring animal welfare. Veterinarians can be a great conduit to = get good information about what is and is not appropriate animal care = directly to the right people. I look to my colleagues in all fields for = help in constructing good messages. I'm pretty sure they know I have the = utmost respect for what they can and do contribute. As a veterinarian, I = hope they will appreciate that I can help them achieve their animal = welfare goals by getting those messages into the right hands. In my = mind, it's all about respect for what we each do very well and then = maximizing those strengths into a cohesive whole. Gail =20 Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM Associate Director, Animal Welfare AVMA =20 =20 =20 Hi Jennifer, I'm hoping my thoughts are stimulating but not inflammatory, so I'll = take the chance on posting it to the whole list! I enjoyed Emily and Anna's thoughts and this is also a bit in that vein. While I agree that current veterinary training, in the US at least, may = not qualify veterinarians in an educational sense to be animal welfare = agents, there are a few realities to consider 1) Regardless of the views of the scientific community on this matter, = the public holds veterinarians to be the most knowledgable professionals in relation to animals. This means that the public expects veterinarians to know EVERYTHING about animals--whether they have actually been educated = or trained in a particularl area or not. In the eyes of the public, vets = are likely already seen as THE animal welfare agents. Let's face it, = professors (and other professionals) in animal science, animal behavior and animal welfare welfare (or other professionals), who may better educated and trained in animal welfare aren't always very publically visible and = don't have such a universal job description as veterinarian. Perhaps given the public perception (and the likely similar perception of many in = government), veterinarians are a logical choice. 2) Many veterinarians may also believe that since they understand animal health and work to improve it that they are qualified animal welfare = agents. This does not mean they are arrogant. It may simply be that they do not conceive that animal welfare goes beyond health to include such aspects = as natural living, affective states and basic biological functioning. When = I teach veterinary students about animal welfare, this is always the first piece that I address--that animal welfare is multidisciplinary and multifactorial and just because the vet regards diseaase free as the = most important component does not mean that the dog feels the same way. 3) Many vets are eager to learn more about animal welfare and would willingly do so given the opportunity. Vet schools are currently = expanding their alrady packed curricula in this direction. Gail Golab will likely = have more real knowledge to add here, but I currently assist in a new course = at MSU called Ethical and Animal Welfare Issues in the Veterinary = Profession. While these courses may not teach the topic in as much depth as some of = us would like, it is a great start. Maybe the education needs to be = required starting at the undergraduate level or perhaps as an emphasis (of course = I think animal behavior should also be required indpendent of welfare but certainly in conjunction with it). A rotation or externship might also = be a possible idea--it might vary from school to school how it could be incorporated. There's my two cents. Cheers, Janice Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB Research Assistant Professor Animal Behavior and Welfare Group 1287C Anthony Hall Department of Animal Science Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 517-432-8212 office 517-432-1396 lab 517-353-1699 fax Jennifer Lanier writes: > It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of > animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities > such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, > international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although > veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they > require education in animal welfare to be effective agents.=20 > > =20 > > So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this > trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal > scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this > mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For > relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how > much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the = natural > choice? > > =20 > > Please, if you have a point which may inflame another person or group = of > people, please email me your thoughts privately.=20 > > =20 > > =20 > > Jennifer > > =20 > > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. > > Director of Scientific Programs > > Humane Society International - Trade > > 2100 L St. NW > > Washington, DC 20037 USA > > jlanier@hsi.org > > (240) 888 1217 cell > > (202) 778 6148 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our = online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to = www.hsus.org/join . From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 14-MAY-2007 06:58:34.45 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Thank you, Stan, I'm hoping that by beginning to formally educate vets in the area of animal welfare, we can make them aware of the depth and scope of the field and other resources available. For all of us, knowing our limits in terms of what we do and don't know is valuable, as is knowing where to turn to find the answers. As we talk more and more with one another perhaps the boundaries between disciplines and titles will become less important--my own training is so multidisciplinary that I don't even know where to classify myself! As you said in your other post, we need to keep in mind where we are headed and what our goals are with animal welfare work and as long as those ideas have precence then the animals will benefit. Cheers, Janice Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB Research Assistant Professor Animal Behavior and Welfare Group 1287C Anthony Hall Department of Animal Science Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 517-432-8212 office 517-432-1396 lab 517-353-1699 fax Stanley Curtis writes: > > > > Janice and All Colleagues- > > Thanks, Janice, for your interesting perspective- Members of the veterinary profession and the several scientific discplines pertinent to kept-animal welfare should be educated on the lay of the land, as you have described it, and then encouraged to affirmatively promote for the benefit of all people as well as all animals (don't forget the animals!) the notion that studying and assessing animal welfare is, realistically, a multidiscplinary and interdisciplinary endeavor- > > -Stan Curtis > Department of Animal Sciences > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > > > > ---- Original message ---- >>Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 12:45:57 -0400 >>From: Janice M Siegford >>Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents >>To: applied-ethology@usask.ca >> >>Hi Jennifer, >>I'm hoping my thoughts are stimulating but not inflammatory, so I'll take >>the chance on posting it to the whole list! I enjoyed Emily and Anna's >>thoughts and this is also a bit in that vein. >> >>While I agree that current veterinary training, in the US at least, may not >>qualify veterinarians in an educational sense to be animal welfare agents, >>there are a few realities to consider. >> >>1) Regardless of the views of the scientific community on this matter, the >>public holds veterinarians to be the most knowledgable professionals in >>relation to animals. This means that the public expects veterinarians to >>know EVERYTHING about animals--whether they have actually been educated or >>trained in a particularl area or not. In the eyes of the public, vets are >>likely already seen as THE animal welfare agents. Let's face it, professors >>(and other professionals) in animal science, animal behavior and animal >>welfare welfare (or other professionals), who may better educated and >>trained in animal welfare aren't always very publically visible and don't >>have such a universal job description as veterinarian. Perhaps given the >>public perception (and the likely similar perception of many in government), >>veterinarians are a logical choice. >> >>2) Many veterinarians may also believe that since they understand animal >>health and work to improve it that they are qualified animal welfare agents. >>This does not mean they are arrogant. It may simply be that they do not >>conceive that animal welfare goes beyond health to include such aspects as >>natural living, affective states and basic biological functioning. When I >>teach veterinary students about animal welfare, this is always the first >>piece that I address--that animal welfare is multidisciplinary and >>multifactorial and just because the vet regards diseaase free as the most >>important component does not mean that the dog feels the same way. >> >>3) Many vets are eager to learn more about animal welfare and would >>willingly do so given the opportunity. Vet schools are currently expanding >>their alrady packed curricula in this direction. Gail Golab will likely have >>more real knowledge to add here, but I currently assist in a new course at >>MSU called Ethical and Animal Welfare Issues in the Veterinary Profession. >>While these courses may not teach the topic in as much depth as some of us >>would like, it is a great start. Maybe the education needs to be required >>starting at the undergraduate level or perhaps as an emphasis (of course I >>think animal behavior should also be required indpendent of welfare but >>certainly in conjunction with it). A rotation or externship might also be a >>possible idea--it might vary from school to school how it could be >>incorporated. >> >>There's my two cents. >> >>Cheers, >>Janice >> >>Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB >>Research Assistant Professor >>Animal Behavior and Welfare Group >>1287C Anthony Hall >>Department of Animal Science >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824 >>517-432-8212 office >>517-432-1396 lab >>517-353-1699 fax >> >> >>Jennifer Lanier writes: >> >>> It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of >>> animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities >>> such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, >>> international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although >>> veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they >>> require education in animal welfare to be effective agents. >>> >>> >>> >>> So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this >>> trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal >>> scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this >>> mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For >>> relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how >>> much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the natural >>> choice? >>> >>> >>> >>> Please, if you have a point which may inflame another person or group of >>> people, please email me your thoughts privately. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jennifer >>> >>> >>> >>> Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. >>> >>> Director of Scientific Programs >>> >>> Humane Society International - Trade >>> >>> 2100 L St. NW >>> >>> Washington, DC 20037 USA >>> >>> jlanier@hsi.org >>> >>> (240) 888 1217 cell >>> >>> (202) 778 6148 >>> >>> >>> >>> Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . >> >> >> > Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB Research Assistant Professor Animal Behavior and Welfare Group 1287C Anthony Hall Department of Animal Science Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 517-432-8212 office 517-432-1396 lab 517-353-1699 fax From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 14-MAY-2007 11:33:29.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Jennifer Lanier wrote: It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they require education in animal welfare to be effective agents. ------------------------------------------------ Dear Jennifer and All: Jennifer, I want to thank you for your posting. I am scheduled to give a presentation in the Bioethics Symposium at the Joint Annual Meeting (animal sciences) entitled, "Ethical Role of Scientists, Veterinarians and Educators: How Public Perception and Societal Decisions are Influenced." And because I feel that I should not speak for veterinarians, earlier I asked Bonnie Beaver to co-author the manuscript. Now, your posting and the responses have given me more to think about. The discussion has been excellent, and I do not wish to detract from what has been said. I only wish to add something, and what I have to say is a broad, sweeping generalization. Thus, at the outset, I want to clearly state that I am well aware that one cannot categorize all PhDs as belonging in one pigeonhole and all DVMs as fitting into another. Jennifer, you mentioned the role of veterinarians "in official capacities such as . directors of welfare.as welfare agents . on the ground." However, even though this role is one largely filled by vets (in the USA), this topic has not been directly addressed in the previous postings. Instead, the discussion has focused largely - and not inappropriately - on what I will call the "Theory of Animal Welfare." Now for the board generalization - most professional Applied Ethologists are PhDs. The PhD degree is specifically a research degree. And ultimately, I think we PhD's focus more at the level of theory and maybe even tend to avoid dealing with work that is "on the ground" - to use the phrase Jennifer used. Most PhD students receive very little information or education regarding topics having to with policy, regulations, oversight, etc. And the experiences with regulations, etc. that some PhD students have may become viewed by them as negative and obtrusive relative to their obtaining their degrees - as in dealing with ethical/animal care committee oversight. And there are no licenses or regulations related specifically to one practicing the profession of Applied Ethology. (And for the record, am not suggesting that applied ethology is a synonym for welfare.) Whereas, I would suggest that veterinarians are much more accustomed to dealing with policy and regulations. First, one must be licensed to practice. Drugs and medication are controlled. In the USA, veterinarians serve as federal meat inspectors, enforcers of legislation under the Animal Welfare Act, controllers of interstate transport of animals, overseers of importation of animals and animal products, etc. I am suggesting that applied ethologists through focusing on research and discussion to advance "Theory of Animal Welfare" may come to feel that some vets are not up-to-date on animal welfare. And maybe some of the vets tend to feel that applied ethologists (and PhDs in general) are not properly informed and/or have too little respect for the role of regulations, policy, etc. Vets are more likely to fill jobs such as directors of animal welfare programs, as Jennifer noted. And maybe the vet profession is better structured for such roles, but I expect this statement may be challenged by some persons. But having said this - I also agree with most all the previous postings on this subject. Specifically, a vet degree alone does not mean the individual's education was inclusive of information about the current state of research and discussion having to do with "Theory of Animal Welfare." Best regards to all, Ray Stricklin From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" 14-MAY-2007 11:35:09.61 To: IN%"siegford@msu.edu" "Janice M Siegford" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents You are right on, Janice- We can only hope that the mutidisciplinary, interdisciplinary spirit within animal welfare science continues to grow and eventually become de rideut in this very important area of inquiry and action- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 08:58:21 -0400 >From: "Janice M Siegford" >Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: securtis@uiuc.edu >Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca > >Thank you, Stan, > >I'm hoping that by beginning to formally educate vets in the area of animal >welfare, we can make them aware of the depth and scope of the field and >other resources available. For all of us, knowing our limits in terms of >what we do and don't know is valuable, as is knowing where to turn to find >the answers. > >As we talk more and more with one another perhaps the boundaries between >disciplines and titles will become less important--my own training is so >multidisciplinary that I don't even know where to classify myself! > >As you said in your other post, we need to keep in mind where we are headed >and what our goals are with animal welfare work and as long as those ideas >have precence then the animals will benefit. > >Cheers, > >Janice > >Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB >Research Assistant Professor >Animal Behavior and Welfare Group >1287C Anthony Hall >Department of Animal Science >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >517-432-8212 office >517-432-1396 lab >517-353-1699 fax > > >Stanley Curtis writes: > >> >> >> >> Janice and All Colleagues- >> >> Thanks, Janice, for your interesting perspective- Members of the veterinary profession and the several scientific discplines pertinent to kept-animal welfare should be educated on the lay of the land, as you have described it, and then encouraged to affirmatively promote for the benefit of all people as well as all animals (don't forget the animals!) the notion that studying and assessing animal welfare is, realistically, a multidiscplinary and interdisciplinary endeavor- >> >> -Stan Curtis >> Department of Animal Sciences >> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign >> >> >> >> ---- Original message ---- >>>Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 12:45:57 -0400 >>>From: Janice M Siegford >>>Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents >>>To: applied-ethology@usask.ca >>> >>>Hi Jennifer, >>>I'm hoping my thoughts are stimulating but not inflammatory, so I'll take >>>the chance on posting it to the whole list! I enjoyed Emily and Anna's >>>thoughts and this is also a bit in that vein. >>> >>>While I agree that current veterinary training, in the US at least, may not >>>qualify veterinarians in an educational sense to be animal welfare agents, >>>there are a few realities to consider. >>> >>>1) Regardless of the views of the scientific community on this matter, the >>>public holds veterinarians to be the most knowledgable professionals in >>>relation to animals. This means that the public expects veterinarians to >>>know EVERYTHING about animals--whether they have actually been educated or >>>trained in a particularl area or not. In the eyes of the public, vets are >>>likely already seen as THE animal welfare agents. Let's face it, professors >>>(and other professionals) in animal science, animal behavior and animal >>>welfare welfare (or other professionals), who may better educated and >>>trained in animal welfare aren't always very publically visible and don't >>>have such a universal job description as veterinarian. Perhaps given the >>>public perception (and the likely similar perception of many in government), >>>veterinarians are a logical choice. >>> >>>2) Many veterinarians may also believe that since they understand animal >>>health and work to improve it that they are qualified animal welfare agents. >>>This does not mean they are arrogant. It may simply be that they do not >>>conceive that animal welfare goes beyond health to include such aspects as >>>natural living, affective states and basic biological functioning. When I >>>teach veterinary students about animal welfare, this is always the first >>>piece that I address--that animal welfare is multidisciplinary and >>>multifactorial and just because the vet regards diseaase free as the most >>>important component does not mean that the dog feels the same way. >>> >>>3) Many vets are eager to learn more about animal welfare and would >>>willingly do so given the opportunity. Vet schools are currently expanding >>>their alrady packed curricula in this direction. Gail Golab will likely have >>>more real knowledge to add here, but I currently assist in a new course at >>>MSU called Ethical and Animal Welfare Issues in the Veterinary Profession. >>>While these courses may not teach the topic in as much depth as some of us >>>would like, it is a great start. Maybe the education needs to be required >>>starting at the undergraduate level or perhaps as an emphasis (of course I >>>think animal behavior should also be required indpendent of welfare but >>>certainly in conjunction with it). A rotation or externship might also be a >>>possible idea--it might vary from school to school how it could be >>>incorporated. >>> >>>There's my two cents. >>> >>>Cheers, >>>Janice >>> >>>Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB >>>Research Assistant Professor >>>Animal Behavior and Welfare Group >>>1287C Anthony Hall >>>Department of Animal Science >>>Michigan State University >>>East Lansing, MI 48824 >>>517-432-8212 office >>>517-432-1396 lab >>>517-353-1699 fax >>> >>> >>>Jennifer Lanier writes: >>> >>>> It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of >>>> animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities >>>> such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, >>>> international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although >>>> veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they >>>> require education in animal welfare to be effective agents. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this >>>> trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal >>>> scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this >>>> mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For >>>> relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how >>>> much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the natural >>>> choice? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Please, if you have a point which may inflame another person or group of >>>> people, please email me your thoughts privately. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jennifer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. >>>> >>>> Director of Scientific Programs >>>> >>>> Humane Society International - Trade >>>> >>>> 2100 L St. NW >>>> >>>> Washington, DC 20037 USA >>>> >>>> jlanier@hsi.org >>>> >>>> (240) 888 1217 cell >>>> >>>> (202) 778 6148 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . >>> >>> >>> >> > > > >Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB >Research Assistant Professor >Animal Behavior and Welfare Group >1287C Anthony Hall >Department of Animal Science >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >517-432-8212 office >517-432-1396 lab >517-353-1699 fax > > From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" 14-MAY-2007 11:45:39.50 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Ray and All- Good, thoughtful post, Ray- I was, however, disappointed that, in your discussion, you referred specifically only to veterinarians and applied ethologists- Was that unintentional and meaningful? The multidisciplinary, interdisciplinary tent some of us have in mind is considerably larger that- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:33:12 -0400 >From: Ray Stricklin >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > Jennifer Lanier wrote: > > > > It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the > next generation of animal welfare agents, both on > the ground and in official capacities such as > political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some > countries, international groups, and individuals are > mentioning that although veterinarians are the > natural choice for being welfare agents they require > education in animal welfare to be effective agents. > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > Dear Jennifer and All: > > > > Jennifer, I want to thank you for your posting. I am > scheduled to give a presentation in the Bioethics > Symposium at the Joint Annual Meeting (animal > sciences) entitled, "Ethical Role of Scientists, > Veterinarians and Educators: How Public Perception > and Societal Decisions are Influenced." And because > I feel that I should not speak for veterinarians, > earlier I asked Bonnie Beaver to co-author the > manuscript. Now, your posting and the responses have > given me more to think about. > > > > The discussion has been excellent, and I do not wish > to detract from what has been said. I only wish to > add something, and what I have to say is a broad, > sweeping generalization. Thus, at the outset, I want > to clearly state that I am well aware that one > cannot categorize all PhDs as belonging in one > pigeonhole and all DVMs as fitting into another. > > > > Jennifer, you mentioned the role of veterinarians > "in official capacities such as ... directors of > welfare...as welfare agents ... on the ground." > However, even though this role is one largely filled > by vets (in the USA), this topic has not been > directly addressed in the previous postings. > Instead, the discussion has focused largely - and > not inappropriately - on what I will call the > "Theory of Animal Welfare." > > > > Now for the board generalization - most professional > Applied Ethologists are PhDs. The PhD degree is > specifically a research degree. And ultimately, I > think we PhD's focus more at the level of theory and > maybe even tend to avoid dealing with work that is > "on the ground" - to use the phrase Jennifer used. > Most PhD students receive very little information or > education regarding topics having to with policy, > regulations, oversight, etc. And the experiences > with regulations, etc. that some PhD students have > may become viewed by them as negative and obtrusive > relative to their obtaining their degrees - as in > dealing with ethical/animal care committee > oversight. And there are no licenses or regulations > related specifically to one practicing the > profession of Applied Ethology. (And for the record, > am not suggesting that applied ethology is a synonym > for welfare.) > > > > Whereas, I would suggest that veterinarians are much > more accustomed to dealing with policy and > regulations. First, one must be licensed to > practice. Drugs and medication are controlled. In > the USA, veterinarians serve as federal meat > inspectors, enforcers of legislation under the > Animal Welfare Act, controllers of interstate > transport of animals, overseers of importation of > animals and animal products, etc. > > > > I am suggesting that applied ethologists through > focusing on research and discussion to advance > "Theory of Animal Welfare" may come to feel that > some vets are not up-to-date on animal welfare. And > maybe some of the vets tend to feel that applied > ethologists (and PhDs in general) are not properly > informed and/or have too little respect for the role > of regulations, policy, etc. > > > > Vets are more likely to fill jobs such as directors > of animal welfare programs, as Jennifer noted. And > maybe the vet profession is better structured for > such roles, but I expect this statement may be > challenged by some persons. > > > > But having said this - I also agree with most all > the previous postings on this subject. Specifically, > a vet degree alone does not mean the individual's > education was inclusive of information about the > current state of research and discussion having to > do with "Theory of Animal Welfare." > > > > Best regards to all, > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > > > From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" 14-MAY-2007 11:46:58.10 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu", IN%"siegford@msu.edu" "Janice M Siegford" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents de rigeur ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 12:34:57 -0500 (CDT) >From: Stanley Curtis >Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: Janice M Siegford >Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > > > >You are right on, Janice- We can only hope that the mutidisciplinary, interdisciplinary spirit within animal welfare science continues to grow and eventually become de rideut in this very important area of inquiry and action- > >-Stan Curtis >Department of Animal Sciences >University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > > > >---- Original message ---- >>Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 08:58:21 -0400 >>From: "Janice M Siegford" >>Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents >>To: securtis@uiuc.edu >>Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca >> >>Thank you, Stan, >> >>I'm hoping that by beginning to formally educate vets in the area of animal >>welfare, we can make them aware of the depth and scope of the field and >>other resources available. For all of us, knowing our limits in terms of >>what we do and don't know is valuable, as is knowing where to turn to find >>the answers. >> >>As we talk more and more with one another perhaps the boundaries between >>disciplines and titles will become less important--my own training is so >>multidisciplinary that I don't even know where to classify myself! >> >>As you said in your other post, we need to keep in mind where we are headed >>and what our goals are with animal welfare work and as long as those ideas >>have precence then the animals will benefit. >> >>Cheers, >> >>Janice >> >>Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB >>Research Assistant Professor >>Animal Behavior and Welfare Group >>1287C Anthony Hall >>Department of Animal Science >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824 >>517-432-8212 office >>517-432-1396 lab >>517-353-1699 fax >> >> >>Stanley Curtis writes: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Janice and All Colleagues- >>> >>> Thanks, Janice, for your interesting perspective- Members of the veterinary profession and the several scientific discplines pertinent to kept-animal welfare should be educated on the lay of the land, as you have described it, and then encouraged to affirmatively promote for the benefit of all people as well as all animals (don't forget the animals!) the notion that studying and assessing animal welfare is, realistically, a multidiscplinary and interdisciplinary endeavor- >>> >>> -Stan Curtis >>> Department of Animal Sciences >>> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign >>> >>> >>> >>> ---- Original message ---- >>>>Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 12:45:57 -0400 >>>>From: Janice M Siegford >>>>Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents >>>>To: applied-ethology@usask.ca >>>> >>>>Hi Jennifer, >>>>I'm hoping my thoughts are stimulating but not inflammatory, so I'll take >>>>the chance on posting it to the whole list! I enjoyed Emily and Anna's >>>>thoughts and this is also a bit in that vein. >>>> >>>>While I agree that current veterinary training, in the US at least, may not >>>>qualify veterinarians in an educational sense to be animal welfare agents, >>>>there are a few realities to consider. >>>> >>>>1) Regardless of the views of the scientific community on this matter, the >>>>public holds veterinarians to be the most knowledgable professionals in >>>>relation to animals. This means that the public expects veterinarians to >>>>know EVERYTHING about animals--whether they have actually been educated or >>>>trained in a particularl area or not. In the eyes of the public, vets are >>>>likely already seen as THE animal welfare agents. Let's face it, professors >>>>(and other professionals) in animal science, animal behavior and animal >>>>welfare welfare (or other professionals), who may better educated and >>>>trained in animal welfare aren't always very publically visible and don't >>>>have such a universal job description as veterinarian. Perhaps given the >>>>public perception (and the likely similar perception of many in government), >>>>veterinarians are a logical choice. >>>> >>>>2) Many veterinarians may also believe that since they understand animal >>>>health and work to improve it that they are qualified animal welfare agents. >>>>This does not mean they are arrogant. It may simply be that they do not >>>>conceive that animal welfare goes beyond health to include such aspects as >>>>natural living, affective states and basic biological functioning. When I >>>>teach veterinary students about animal welfare, this is always the first >>>>piece that I address--that animal welfare is multidisciplinary and >>>>multifactorial and just because the vet regards diseaase free as the most >>>>important component does not mean that the dog feels the same way. >>>> >>>>3) Many vets are eager to learn more about animal welfare and would >>>>willingly do so given the opportunity. Vet schools are currently expanding >>>>their alrady packed curricula in this direction. Gail Golab will likely have >>>>more real knowledge to add here, but I currently assist in a new course at >>>>MSU called Ethical and Animal Welfare Issues in the Veterinary Profession. >>>>While these courses may not teach the topic in as much depth as some of us >>>>would like, it is a great start. Maybe the education needs to be required >>>>starting at the undergraduate level or perhaps as an emphasis (of course I >>>>think animal behavior should also be required indpendent of welfare but >>>>certainly in conjunction with it). A rotation or externship might also be a >>>>possible idea--it might vary from school to school how it could be >>>>incorporated. >>>> >>>>There's my two cents. >>>> >>>>Cheers, >>>>Janice >>>> >>>>Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB >>>>Research Assistant Professor >>>>Animal Behavior and Welfare Group >>>>1287C Anthony Hall >>>>Department of Animal Science >>>>Michigan State University >>>>East Lansing, MI 48824 >>>>517-432-8212 office >>>>517-432-1396 lab >>>>517-353-1699 fax >>>> >>>> >>>>Jennifer Lanier writes: >>>> >>>>> It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of >>>>> animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities >>>>> such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, >>>>> international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although >>>>> veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they >>>>> require education in animal welfare to be effective agents. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this >>>>> trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal >>>>> scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this >>>>> mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For >>>>> relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how >>>>> much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the natural >>>>> choice? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please, if you have a point which may inflame another person or group of >>>>> people, please email me your thoughts privately. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jennifer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. >>>>> >>>>> Director of Scientific Programs >>>>> >>>>> Humane Society International - Trade >>>>> >>>>> 2100 L St. NW >>>>> >>>>> Washington, DC 20037 USA >>>>> >>>>> jlanier@hsi.org >>>>> >>>>> (240) 888 1217 cell >>>>> >>>>> (202) 778 6148 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >>Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB >>Research Assistant Professor >>Animal Behavior and Welfare Group >>1287C Anthony Hall >>Department of Animal Science >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824 >>517-432-8212 office >>517-432-1396 lab >>517-353-1699 fax >> >> From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 14-MAY-2007 12:07:13.62 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Stan, In using the term Applied Ethology, I was not trying to be exclusive. When drafting the message, my thinking regarding the term "applied ethology" had to do with how a PhD might tend to approach welfare compared to the viewpoint of a professional with a vet degree. And again, I want to emphasize that not all PhDs have the same approach or that all vets are of like mind, etc. Regards, Ray From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 14-MAY-2007 12:13:22.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents I have enjoyed this collegial discussion and would like to add another thought. As a veterinarian for over 30 years I have seen the change in both attitudes and knowledge of pet owners. Very few if any know anyone who has lived on a farm let alone know anything about farm animals. They also know very little about animal behavior in general or animal welfare. As veterinarians we come in contact with people every day and can use that opportunity to enlighten them on the animal welfare issues. Not only must animal welfare be addressed from all the professional disciplines mentioned in the other posts, but we must also make the public aware of what the term means, how it affects them, their pets and their lives. Veterinarians are out in the community and can help make that happen. Best regards, Debra F. Horwitz, DVM DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations 11469 Olive Blvd. #254 St. Louis, MO 63141-7108 Phone and fax: 314-567-4131 e-mail: DebHdvm@aol.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 14-MAY-2007 12:33:33.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents The discussion on this has been fabulous and greatly appreciated. Thank you all. I recently met a veterinarian who introduced himself as a veterinarian and a "welfarist." He made the distinction very clear. I thought this was a great way to describe ones knowledge and role in advancing animal care. While reading your responses I got thinking about those people and countries that are just now grappling with the implementation of animal welfare. For those who don't know me, one major component of my job is to attempt to provide education on and implement animal welfare, primarily livestock, in the field. What follows are some of my observations of welfare implementation in countries that are just beginning to grasp the concept. In Latin American as in other areas of the world, welfare is fairly a new discipline. Many Latin Countries are embracing the concept, primarily due to the desire for increased global trade. There is a fear by many that welfare will become a trade barrier. Due to rush to meet import countries regulations and or a desire to supply various multi-national corporations with animal products there is an escalating misunderstanding and application of welfare as a food safety issue and not as an individual animal issue. Welfare is about passing an audit. For example, the personnel the positions that are to be audited will receive some education and regrettably, a mandate to do "X" instead of "Y" with no understand of why. For example, the guy at the plant who shackles and hoists stunned cattle know that they must put their hand next to the nose before the animal is hoisted. So, the guy will put his hand in front of the nose for a nanosecond then hoist the animal. Or better yet he will be wearing a glove on his hand while checking for rhythmic breathing. When questioned he often doesn't know why he puts his hand in front of the nose, but he does know that he must do so when ever there is a visitor in the plant. Example #2, the handlers that work the holding pens receive no training and are allowed to employ high stress and injurious tactics to move animals, while those people moving the animals to the stun box are trained on low stress handling and given handling flags. He who is being audited is the one trained. The welfare of the animal is not improved or protected, but the standards audited against are more likely to be met. I am not implying that the auditor won't see through these mis-guided activities, or that standards and audits are failing. I am saying that on the ground application of science, techniques and such is very difficult and a bit odd. Ideas, definitions, regulations, etc easily get misconstrued and then implemented. And at the end of the day when you talk to the plant managers, the inspecting veterinarians, the politicians, associations, etc they tend to define welfare and the actions such as those I described as implementation of food safety measures. Again, this is due to various humane slaughter regulations that influence trade. A second issue that I am seeing more of is who gets to be involved in animal welfare. A great deal of my work revolves around who gets trained, and who has control of welfare. To be considered a welfare agent is a form of status in many of the places I work. Therefore, all out "wars" start taking place as people jockey to get trained, sit on a committee, or host an event. While this is partially beneficial for the spread of knowledge, it is appearing to have some unsettling consequences. Knowledge of welfare is not the deciding factor for who gets to be a welfare agent. The welfare agents are often chosen or self appointed because it advances their careers. One Latin American country has a welfare committee that is comprised of people who hold certain positions considered esteemed. During the formation of this committee, people who had welfare knowledge and enthusiasm, but no ranking position were not considered for the committee. While this country appears to be pro-welfare, the amount of actual on the ground changes is minimal. Although many of the people involved have good intentions and support welfare, their welfare actions are based on strategic political moves, not science, not knowledge and often not even economics. Ray's post about policy is interesting. In the minds of governments is welfare policy or practice? Many on this list would (probably) argue that just as welfare is multi-disciplinary it is also complex in application with policy and practice being important. But how do those with no to little history or understanding of animal welfare view it? I think this may be critical as more countries are watching the OIE, EU and others further develop standards and regulations. We as the front line welfare agents may have new and unexpected challenges to deal with as developing countries rush to meet these standards. Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Humane Society International - Trade 2100 L St. NW Washington, DC 20037 USA jlanier@hsi.org (240) 888 1217 cell (202) 778 6148 >>Jennifer Lanier writes: >> >>> It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of >>> animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities >>> such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, >>> international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although >>> veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they >>> require education in animal welfare to be effective agents. >>> >>> >>> >>> So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this >>> trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal >>> scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this >>> mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For >>> relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how >>> much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the natural >>> choice? >>> >>> >>> >>> Please, if you have a point which may inflame another person or group of >>> people, please email me your thoughts privately. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jennifer >>> >>> >>> >>> Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. >>> >>> Director of Scientific Programs >>> >>> Humane Society International - Trade >>> >>> 2100 L St. NW >>> >>> Washington, DC 20037 USA >>> >>> jlanier@hsi.org >>> >>> (240) 888 1217 cell >>> >>> (202) 778 6148 Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 14-MAY-2007 12:46:04.87 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethics List" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Coming from a Child Development background, I wonder if the current model for child welfare might not be a good starting place? Pediatricians do play a role but only as one member of a large team. An ideal team includes other Doctors with child related specialties, Child Development Specialists, Social Workers, Child Care Specialists, Scientists in various child related fields, Attorneys in those same fields, and of course Parents and Teachers. (I am almost certainly leaving someone out.) Just as we used to look for all knowledge of children from Pediatricians, so too, we used to look for all knowledge of animals from Veterinarians. It might not be a bad idea for Veterinarians to stick with medicine. And I don't mean that in a negative or condescending way. Medicine is progressing in leaps and bounds. How could a veterinarian be expected to keep up with all the medical advances, as well as the behavioral, ethical and social etc.? (They might be able to keep up but they wouldn't be able to run a practice and keep up at the same time.) Many of the veterinarians I work with even specialize in one medical area only - orthopedic, allergy/dermatology, ophthalmology, etc. Gosh, you'd be in school forever learning all of the areas involved. Thank goodness for specialties! Limiting the charge of animal welfare to veterinarians would be limiting the advancement of animal welfare in my opinion. Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the natural choice? Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 14-MAY-2007 13:27:02.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: FW: Veterinarians as welfare agents From: Croney, Candace [mailto:candace.croney@oregonstate.edu] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 2:49 PM To: wrstrick@umd.edu Subject: FW: Veterinarians as welfare agents Hi Ray, Could you please forward this to the list for me? For some reason, I can't post. Candace Croney, PhD Assistant Professor, Animal Behavior/Bioethics (541) 737-1401 _____ From: Croney, Candace Sent: Mon 5/14/2007 11:42 AM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Jennifer, This is a very interesting post. Thank you for sharing. I see some of what you describe here in the US as well (in terms of following directions with no understanding, and therefore too often, with little benefit to animals). It reiterates the critical need for education of those working with animals as opposed to just "training." It's very interesting to read your observations of how the push to develop animal welfare policies and practices is developing globally. Candace Croney, PhD Assistant Professor, Animal Behavior/Bioethics (541) 737-1401 _____ From: Jennifer Lanier [mailto:jlanier@hsi.org] Sent: Mon 5/14/2007 11:32 AM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents The discussion on this has been fabulous and greatly appreciated. Thank you all. I recently met a veterinarian who introduced himself as a veterinarian and a "welfarist." He made the distinction very clear. I thought this was a great way to describe ones knowledge and role in advancing animal care. While reading your responses I got thinking about those people and countries that are just now grappling with the implementation of animal welfare. For those who don't know me, one major component of my job is to attempt to provide education on and implement animal welfare, primarily livestock, in the field. What follows are some of my observations of welfare implementation in countries that are just beginning to grasp the concept. In Latin American as in other areas of the world, welfare is fairly a new discipline. Many Latin Countries are embracing the concept, primarily due to the desire for increased global trade. There is a fear by many that welfare will become a trade barrier. Due to rush to meet import countries regulations and or a desire to supply various multi-national corporations with animal products there is an escalating misunderstanding and application of welfare as a food safety issue and not as an individual animal issue. Welfare is about passing an audit. For example, the personnel the positions that are to be audited will receive some education and regrettably, a mandate to do "X" instead of "Y" with no understand of why. For example, the guy at the plant who shackles and hoists stunned cattle know that they must put their hand next to the nose before the animal is hoisted. So, the guy will put his hand in front of the nose for a nanosecond then hoist the animal. Or better yet he will be wearing a glove on his hand while checking for rhythmic breathing. When questioned he often doesn't know why he puts his hand in front of the nose, but he does know that he must do so when ever there is a visitor in the plant. Example #2, the handlers that work the holding pens receive no training and are allowed to employ high stress and injurious tactics to move animals, while those people moving the animals to the stun box are trained on low stress handling and given handling flags. He who is being audited is the one trained. The welfare of the animal is not improved or protected, but the standards audited against are more likely to be met. I am not implying that the auditor won't see through these mis-guided activities, or that standards and audits are failing. I am saying that on the ground application of science, techniques and such is very difficult and a bit odd. Ideas, definitions, regulations, etc easily get misconstrued and then implemented. And at the end of the day when you talk to the plant managers, the inspecting veterinarians, the politicians, associations, etc they tend to define welfare and the actions such as those I described as implementation of food safety measures. Again, this is due to various humane slaughter regulations that influence trade. A second issue that I am seeing more of is who gets to be involved in animal welfare. A great deal of my work revolves around who gets trained, and who has control of welfare. To be considered a welfare agent is a form of status in many of the places I work. Therefore, all out "wars" start taking place as people jockey to get trained, sit on a committee, or host an event. While this is partially beneficial for the spread of knowledge, it is appearing to have some unsettling consequences. Knowledge of welfare is not the deciding factor for who gets to be a welfare agent. The welfare agents are often chosen or self appointed because it advances their careers. One Latin American country has a welfare committee that is comprised of people who hold certain positions considered esteemed. During the formation of this committee, people who had welfare knowledge and enthusiasm, but no ranking position were not considered for the committee. While this country appears to be pro-welfare, the amount of actual on the ground changes is minimal. Although many of the people involved have good intentions and support welfare, their welfare actions are based on strategic political moves, not science, not knowledge and often not even economics. Ray's post about policy is interesting. In the minds of governments is welfare policy or practice? Many on this list would (probably) argue that just as welfare is multi-disciplinary it is also complex in application with policy and practice being important. But how do those with no to little history or understanding of animal welfare view it? I think this may be critical as more countries are watching the OIE, EU and others further develop standards and regulations. We as the front line welfare agents may have new and unexpected challenges to deal with as developing countries rush to meet these standards. Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Humane Society International - Trade 2100 L St. NW Washington, DC 20037 USA jlanier@hsi.org (240) 888 1217 cell (202) 778 6148 >>Jennifer Lanier writes: >> >>> It appears that veterinarians are poised to be the next generation of >>> animal welfare agents, both on the ground and in official capacities >>> such as political advisors, directors of welfare, etc. Some countries, >>> international groups, and individuals are mentioning that although >>> veterinarians are the natural choice for being welfare agents they >>> require education in animal welfare to be effective agents. >>> >>> >>> >>> So to this list I am interested in your very polite thoughts on this >>> trend of veterinarians being made welfare agents as opposed to animal >>> scientists, biologists, ethologists, philosophers, etc. What does this >>> mean for the advancement of animal welfare? For policy change? For >>> relations with the animal industries? What type of education and how >>> much should be required for veterinarians? Are veterinarians the natural >>> choice? >>> >>> >>> >>> Please, if you have a point which may inflame another person or group of >>> people, please email me your thoughts privately. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jennifer >>> >>> >>> >>> Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. >>> >>> Director of Scientific Programs >>> >>> Humane Society International - Trade >>> >>> 2100 L St. NW >>> >>> Washington, DC 20037 USA >>> >>> jlanier@hsi.org >>> >>> (240) 888 1217 cell >>> >>> (202) 778 6148 Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 14-MAY-2007 15:27:07.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Jennifer Lanier wrote: In the minds of governments is welfare policy or practice? . ------------------------------- Jennifer and All, I will not attempt to answer the above question in relation to governments. But the posting is related to some of my thoughts regarding my own institution's officials, and these thoughts I did not include in my previous posting. Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the University of Maryland-College Park campus hire a director of animal care. The powers-that-be have insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job description to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM diplomat are preferred." In truth, I believe that the number of PhDs who could do the job is very, very small. And in thinking about the work related to the position, I am not so sure that there are very many PhDs who would be both capable and also would want the type of work required in this job. Maybe I am wrong about this, but these thoughts did influence my previous posting. Regardless, Jennifer's original posting made me think about what might motivate a PhD versus a DVM. And it also made me think about my own belief that a DVM is more likely to be a better choice for the position as director of animal care. And to the point, my institutional officials - and probably those of other universities - most definitely view animal welfare as policy, at least in relation to the animal care program. Thus, because they see animal care as having to do with policy, they believe a veterinarian is required and/or better suited to the job; at least this is my impression. Again, I do not totally disagree with this viewpoint for in fact the role of the director of animal care has largely to do with implementation and documentation of policy. And because the PhD is strictly a research degree and the DVM degree and profession by its very nature involves more regulation and enforcement, then vets may well be better suited to jobs that have to do with enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. However, when it comes to developing policy, I have long advocated the importance of having input and involvement from all parties. Regards, Ray Stricklin From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" 14-MAY-2007 15:37:37.08 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Ray Stricklin wrote: " . . . vets may well be better suited to jobs that have to do with enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. However, when it comes to developing policy, I have long advocated the importance of having input and involvement from all parties." I strongly subscribe to these notions of his- Perhaps veterinarian-bureaucrats serving in such positions ought to hold a better-descriptive title such as "director of regulatory enforcement -- animal care" or some such- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:26:52 -0400 >From: Ray Stricklin >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > Jennifer Lanier wrote: > > > > In the minds of governments is welfare policy or > practice? ... > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > Jennifer and All, > > > > I will not attempt to answer the above question in > relation to governments. But the posting is related > to some of my thoughts regarding my own > institution's officials, and these thoughts I did > not include in my previous posting. > > > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire a > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job description > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM diplomat > are preferred." > > > > In truth, I believe that the number of PhDs who > could do the job is very, very small. And in > thinking about the work related to the position, I > am not so sure that there are very many PhDs who > would be both capable and also would want the type > of work required in this job. Maybe I am wrong about > this, but these thoughts did influence my previous > posting. Regardless, Jennifer's original posting > made me think about what might motivate a PhD versus > a DVM. And it also made me think about my own belief > that a DVM is more likely to be a better choice for > the position as director of animal care. > > > > And to the point, my institutional officials - and > probably those of other universities - most > definitely view animal welfare as policy, at least > in relation to the animal care program. Thus, > because they see animal care as having to do with > policy, they believe a veterinarian is required > and/or better suited to the job; at least this is my > impression. Again, I do not totally disagree with > this viewpoint for in fact the role of the director > of animal care has largely to do with implementation > and documentation of policy. And because the PhD is > strictly a research degree and the DVM degree and > profession by its very nature involves more > regulation and enforcement, then vets may well be > better suited to jobs that have to do with > enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. > > > > However, when it comes to developing policy, I have > long advocated the importance of having input and > involvement from all parties. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > > > From: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" 14-MAY-2007 15:55:02.02 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents If I get this wrong, feel free to correct me! There are two types of veterinarians, those who practice and those who don't (policy). Many of the veterinarians that I am seeing taking positions of authority have had no or little hands-on experience with animals after receiving their degree. Experience of veterinarians, PhDs, and self educated persons in all fields should enter the discussion of who are the welfare agents and who is considered for what type of post. Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Humane Society International - Trade 2100 L St. NW Washington, DC 20037 USA jlanier@hsi.org (240) 888 1217 cell (202) 778 6148 -----Original Message----- From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 5:37 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Ray Stricklin wrote: " . . . vets may well be better suited to jobs that have to do with enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. However, when it comes to developing policy, I have long advocated the importance of having input and involvement from all parties." I strongly subscribe to these notions of his- Perhaps veterinarian-bureaucrats serving in such positions ought to hold a better-descriptive title such as "director of regulatory enforcement -- animal care" or some such- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:26:52 -0400 >From: Ray Stricklin >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > Jennifer Lanier wrote: > > > > In the minds of governments is welfare policy or > practice? ... > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > Jennifer and All, > > > > I will not attempt to answer the above question in > relation to governments. But the posting is related > to some of my thoughts regarding my own > institution's officials, and these thoughts I did > not include in my previous posting. > > > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire a > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job description > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM diplomat > are preferred." > > > > In truth, I believe that the number of PhDs who > could do the job is very, very small. And in > thinking about the work related to the position, I > am not so sure that there are very many PhDs who > would be both capable and also would want the type > of work required in this job. Maybe I am wrong about > this, but these thoughts did influence my previous > posting. Regardless, Jennifer's original posting > made me think about what might motivate a PhD versus > a DVM. And it also made me think about my own belief > that a DVM is more likely to be a better choice for > the position as director of animal care. > > > > And to the point, my institutional officials - and > probably those of other universities - most > definitely view animal welfare as policy, at least > in relation to the animal care program. Thus, > because they see animal care as having to do with > policy, they believe a veterinarian is required > and/or better suited to the job; at least this is my > impression. Again, I do not totally disagree with > this viewpoint for in fact the role of the director > of animal care has largely to do with implementation > and documentation of policy. And because the PhD is > strictly a research degree and the DVM degree and > profession by its very nature involves more > regulation and enforcement, then vets may well be > better suited to jobs that have to do with > enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. > > > > However, when it comes to developing policy, I have > long advocated the importance of having input and > involvement from all parties. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . From: IN%"GGolab@avma.org" "Dr. Gail Golab" 14-MAY-2007 16:14:18.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca", IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Hi Jennifer, You knew it was going to happen ...I have to disagree with your assumption that veterinarians fall into two categories. In fact, there are a number of practicing veterinarians who regularly deal with policy issues; there are other full-time veterinarian "bureaucrats" who maintain their licenses and practice on the side; and then there are those whose practice experiences (plus or minus academic expertise in specialty areas) are what got them into the bureaucratic positions in the first place. I would be very careful about assuming what a veterinarian is or is not doing, or has or has not done, unless you've personally examined their CV/resume'. We're a remarkably versatile group! Gail Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM Associate Director, Animal Welfare AVMA ________________________________ From: Jennifer Lanier [mailto:jlanier@hsi.org] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:55 PM To: securtis@uiuc.edu; applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents If I get this wrong, feel free to correct me! There are two types of veterinarians, those who practice and those who don't (policy). Many of the veterinarians that I am seeing taking positions of authority have had no or little hands-on experience with animals after receiving their degree. Experience of veterinarians, PhDs, and self educated persons in all fields should enter the discussion of who are the welfare agents and who is considered for what type of post. Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Humane Society International - Trade 2100 L St. NW Washington, DC 20037 USA jlanier@hsi.org (240) 888 1217 cell (202) 778 6148 -----Original Message----- From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 5:37 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Ray Stricklin wrote: " . . . vets may well be better suited to jobs that have to do with enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. However, when it comes to developing policy, I have long advocated the importance of having input and involvement from all parties." I strongly subscribe to these notions of his- Perhaps veterinarian-bureaucrats serving in such positions ought to hold a better-descriptive title such as "director of regulatory enforcement -- animal care" or some such- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:26:52 -0400 >From: Ray Stricklin >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > Jennifer Lanier wrote: > > > > In the minds of governments is welfare policy or > practice? ... > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > Jennifer and All, > > > > I will not attempt to answer the above question in > relation to governments. But the posting is related > to some of my thoughts regarding my own > institution's officials, and these thoughts I did > not include in my previous posting. > > > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire a > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job description > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM diplomat > are preferred." > > > > In truth, I believe that the number of PhDs who > could do the job is very, very small. And in > thinking about the work related to the position, I > am not so sure that there are very many PhDs who > would be both capable and also would want the type > of work required in this job. Maybe I am wrong about > this, but these thoughts did influence my previous > posting. Regardless, Jennifer's original posting > made me think about what might motivate a PhD versus > a DVM. And it also made me think about my own belief > that a DVM is more likely to be a better choice for > the position as director of animal care. > > > > And to the point, my institutional officials - and > probably those of other universities - most > definitely view animal welfare as policy, at least > in relation to the animal care program. Thus, > because they see animal care as having to do with > policy, they believe a veterinarian is required > and/or better suited to the job; at least this is my > impression. Again, I do not totally disagree with > this viewpoint for in fact the role of the director > of animal care has largely to do with implementation > and documentation of policy. And because the PhD is > strictly a research degree and the DVM degree and > profession by its very nature involves more > regulation and enforcement, then vets may well be > better suited to jobs that have to do with > enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. > > > > However, when it comes to developing policy, I have > long advocated the importance of having input and > involvement from all parties. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 14-MAY-2007 16:35:29.19 To: IN%"GGolab@avma.org" "Dr. Gail Golab", IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca", IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents .....in addition to what Dr. Golab mentioned, there are the veterinarians who teach, those who do research, those in industry, those who write, those who work in diagnostic labs, those who don't practice and instead have a ranch and raise cattle or llamas or something and those like Dr. Baxter Black who writes Cowboy Poetry. My husband is one of those you placed in the "don't practice" category. He is a DVM, PhD doing cancer research and spends his days with cell cultures (not doing policy). But on his evenings and weekends he helps take care of our sheep, goats and llamas--definitely hands on. So I think that if you divide veterinarians into the dos and the don'ts with regards to whether they practice, you will miss a lot of valuable experience. It is the individual that counts. Janice Willard, DVM, MS ----- Original Message ----- From: Dr. Gail Golab To: applied-ethology@usask.ca ; securtis@uiuc.edu Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 3:13 PM Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Hi Jennifer, You knew it was going to happen .I have to disagree with your assumption that veterinarians fall into two categories. In fact, there are a number of practicing veterinarians who regularly deal with policy issues; there are other full-time veterinarian "bureaucrats" who maintain their licenses and practice on the side; and then there are those whose practice experiences (plus or minus academic expertise in specialty areas) are what got them into the bureaucratic positions in the first place. I would be very careful about assuming what a veterinarian is or is not doing, or has or has not done, unless you've personally examined their CV/resume'. We're a remarkably versatile group! Gail Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM Associate Director, Animal Welfare AVMA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Jennifer Lanier [mailto:jlanier@hsi.org] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:55 PM To: securtis@uiuc.edu; applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents If I get this wrong, feel free to correct me! There are two types of veterinarians, those who practice and those who don't (policy). Many of the veterinarians that I am seeing taking positions of authority have had no or little hands-on experience with animals after receiving their degree. Experience of veterinarians, PhDs, and self educated persons in all fields should enter the discussion of who are the welfare agents and who is considered for what type of post. Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Humane Society International - Trade 2100 L St. NW Washington, DC 20037 USA jlanier@hsi.org (240) 888 1217 cell (202) 778 6148 -----Original Message----- From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 5:37 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Ray Stricklin wrote: " . . . vets may well be better suited to jobs that have to do with enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. However, when it comes to developing policy, I have long advocated the importance of having input and involvement from all parties." I strongly subscribe to these notions of his- Perhaps veterinarian-bureaucrats serving in such positions ought to hold a better-descriptive title such as "director of regulatory enforcement -- animal care" or some such- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:26:52 -0400 >From: Ray Stricklin >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > Jennifer Lanier wrote: > > > > In the minds of governments is welfare policy or > practice? ... > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > Jennifer and All, > > > > I will not attempt to answer the above question in > relation to governments. But the posting is related > to some of my thoughts regarding my own > institution's officials, and these thoughts I did > not include in my previous posting. > > > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire a > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job description > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM diplomat > are preferred." > > > > In truth, I believe that the number of PhDs who > could do the job is very, very small. And in > thinking about the work related to the position, I > am not so sure that there are very many PhDs who > would be both capable and also would want the type > of work required in this job. Maybe I am wrong about > this, but these thoughts did influence my previous > posting. Regardless, Jennifer's original posting > made me think about what might motivate a PhD versus > a DVM. And it also made me think about my own belief > that a DVM is more likely to be a better choice for > the position as director of animal care. > > > > And to the point, my institutional officials - and > probably those of other universities - most > definitely view animal welfare as policy, at least > in relation to the animal care program. Thus, > because they see animal care as having to do with > policy, they believe a veterinarian is required > and/or better suited to the job; at least this is my > impression. Again, I do not totally disagree with > this viewpoint for in fact the role of the director > of animal care has largely to do with implementation > and documentation of policy. And because the PhD is > strictly a research degree and the DVM degree and > profession by its very nature involves more > regulation and enforcement, then vets may well be > better suited to jobs that have to do with > enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. > > > > However, when it comes to developing policy, I have > long advocated the importance of having input and > involvement from all parties. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/803 - Release Date: 5/13/2007 12:17 PM From: IN%"jlanier@hsi.org" "Jennifer Lanier" 14-MAY-2007 16:43:18.16 To: IN%"GGolab@avma.org" "Dr. Gail Golab", IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Point taken. I was thinking in a small arena of those with hands-on experience and those without. As a talking point, it is interesting that Ray is looking for a DVM to fill the position of director of animal care. The exclusion of PhD or others as Ray would have preferred would limit the applicant base as well as send a message that DVMs are the appropriate persons for such positions. Job requirements such as this say that the title held is of more value than the experiences and background. Experience is important when applications are up for consideration. But the qualification for the position clearly implies that PhDs and other non-DVM need not apply as they are not considered to be effective welfare agents at this level. Granted I do not have the entire job description, so I am basing this off of the small amount of information that Ray posted. And I am not attacking Ray or the U of Maryland, but rather hoping to further explore our views of who are the appropriate people to be welfare agents. Ray's post: Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire a > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job description > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM diplomat > are preferred." Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Humane Society International - Trade 2100 L St. NW Washington, DC 20037 USA jlanier@hsi.org (240) 888 1217 cell (202) 778 6148 ________________________________ From: Dr. Gail Golab [mailto:GGolab@avma.org] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 6:14 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca; securtis@uiuc.edu Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Hi Jennifer, You knew it was going to happen ...I have to disagree with your assumption that veterinarians fall into two categories. In fact, there are a number of practicing veterinarians who regularly deal with policy issues; there are other full-time veterinarian "bureaucrats" who maintain their licenses and practice on the side; and then there are those whose practice experiences (plus or minus academic expertise in specialty areas) are what got them into the bureaucratic positions in the first place. I would be very careful about assuming what a veterinarian is or is not doing, or has or has not done, unless you've personally examined their CV/resume'. We're a remarkably versatile group! Gail Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM Associate Director, Animal Welfare AVMA ________________________________ From: Jennifer Lanier [mailto:jlanier@hsi.org] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:55 PM To: securtis@uiuc.edu; applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents If I get this wrong, feel free to correct me! There are two types of veterinarians, those who practice and those who don't (policy). Many of the veterinarians that I am seeing taking positions of authority have had no or little hands-on experience with animals after receiving their degree. Experience of veterinarians, PhDs, and self educated persons in all fields should enter the discussion of who are the welfare agents and who is considered for what type of post. Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Humane Society International - Trade 2100 L St. NW Washington, DC 20037 USA jlanier@hsi.org (240) 888 1217 cell (202) 778 6148 -----Original Message----- From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 5:37 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Ray Stricklin wrote: " . . . vets may well be better suited to jobs that have to do with enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. However, when it comes to developing policy, I have long advocated the importance of having input and involvement from all parties." I strongly subscribe to these notions of his- Perhaps veterinarian-bureaucrats serving in such positions ought to hold a better-descriptive title such as "director of regulatory enforcement -- animal care" or some such- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:26:52 -0400 >From: Ray Stricklin >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > Jennifer Lanier wrote: > > > > In the minds of governments is welfare policy or > practice? ... > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > Jennifer and All, > > > > I will not attempt to answer the above question in > relation to governments. But the posting is related > to some of my thoughts regarding my own > institution's officials, and these thoughts I did > not include in my previous posting. > > > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire a > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job description > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM diplomat > are preferred." > > > > In truth, I believe that the number of PhDs who > could do the job is very, very small. And in > thinking about the work related to the position, I > am not so sure that there are very many PhDs who > would be both capable and also would want the type > of work required in this job. Maybe I am wrong about > this, but these thoughts did influence my previous > posting. Regardless, Jennifer's original posting > made me think about what might motivate a PhD versus > a DVM. And it also made me think about my own belief > that a DVM is more likely to be a better choice for > the position as director of animal care. > > > > And to the point, my institutional officials - and > probably those of other universities - most > definitely view animal welfare as policy, at least > in relation to the animal care program. Thus, > because they see animal care as having to do with > policy, they believe a veterinarian is required > and/or better suited to the job; at least this is my > impression. Again, I do not totally disagree with > this viewpoint for in fact the role of the director > of animal care has largely to do with implementation > and documentation of policy. And because the PhD is > strictly a research degree and the DVM degree and > profession by its very nature involves more > regulation and enforcement, then vets may well be > better suited to jobs that have to do with > enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. > > > > However, when it comes to developing policy, I have > long advocated the importance of having input and > involvement from all parties. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . From: IN%"jlanier@hsi.org" "Jennifer Lanier" 14-MAY-2007 16:48:19.20 To: IN%"jlanier@hsi.org" "Jennifer Lanier", IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents I should have included that the reverse is true. Those job descriptions which exclude DVMs and other are equally self limiting. Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier Humane Society International 2100 L Street NW Washington, D.C. 20037 USA Jlanier@hsus.org (240) 888 1217 -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Lanier [mailto:jlanier@hsi.org] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 06:44 PM Eastern Standard Time To: Dr. Gail Golab; applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Point taken. I was thinking in a small arena of those with hands-on experience and those without. As a talking point, it is interesting that Ray is looking for a DVM to fill the position of director of animal care. The exclusion of PhD or others as Ray would have preferred would limit the applicant base as well as send a message that DVMs are the appropriate persons for such positions. Job requirements such as this say that the title held is of more value than the experiences and background. Experience is important when applications are up for consideration. But the qualification for the position clearly implies that PhDs and other non-DVM need not apply as they are not considered to be effective welfare agents at this level. Granted I do not have the entire job description, so I am basing this off of the small amount of information that Ray posted. And I am not attacking Ray or the U of Maryland, but rather hoping to further explore our views of who are the appropriate people to be welfare agents. Ray's post: Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire a > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job description > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM diplomat > are preferred." Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Humane Society International - Trade 2100 L St. NW Washington, DC 20037 USA jlanier@hsi.org (240) 888 1217 cell (202) 778 6148 ________________________________ From: Dr. Gail Golab [mailto:GGolab@avma.org] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 6:14 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca; securtis@uiuc.edu Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Hi Jennifer, You knew it was going to happen ...I have to disagree with your assumption that veterinarians fall into two categories. In fact, there are a number of practicing veterinarians who regularly deal with policy issues; there are other full-time veterinarian "bureaucrats" who maintain their licenses and practice on the side; and then there are those whose practice experiences (plus or minus academic expertise in specialty areas) are what got them into the bureaucratic positions in the first place. I would be very careful about assuming what a veterinarian is or is not doing, or has or has not done, unless you've personally examined their CV/resume'. We're a remarkably versatile group! Gail Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM Associate Director, Animal Welfare AVMA ________________________________ From: Jennifer Lanier [mailto:jlanier@hsi.org] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:55 PM To: securtis@uiuc.edu; applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents If I get this wrong, feel free to correct me! There are two types of veterinarians, those who practice and those who don't (policy). Many of the veterinarians that I am seeing taking positions of authority have had no or little hands-on experience with animals after receiving their degree. Experience of veterinarians, PhDs, and self educated persons in all fields should enter the discussion of who are the welfare agents and who is considered for what type of post. Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Humane Society International - Trade 2100 L St. NW Washington, DC 20037 USA jlanier@hsi.org (240) 888 1217 cell (202) 778 6148 -----Original Message----- From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 5:37 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Ray Stricklin wrote: " . . . vets may well be better suited to jobs that have to do with enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. However, when it comes to developing policy, I have long advocated the importance of having input and involvement from all parties." I strongly subscribe to these notions of his- Perhaps veterinarian-bureaucrats serving in such positions ought to hold a better-descriptive title such as "director of regulatory enforcement -- animal care" or some such- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:26:52 -0400 >From: Ray Stricklin >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > Jennifer Lanier wrote: > > > > In the minds of governments is welfare policy or > practice? ... > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > Jennifer and All, > > > > I will not attempt to answer the above question in > relation to governments. But the posting is related > to some of my thoughts regarding my own > institution's officials, and these thoughts I did > not include in my previous posting. > > > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire a > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job description > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM diplomat > are preferred." > > > > In truth, I believe that the number of PhDs who > could do the job is very, very small. And in > thinking about the work related to the position, I > am not so sure that there are very many PhDs who > would be both capable and also would want the type > of work required in this job. Maybe I am wrong about > this, but these thoughts did influence my previous > posting. Regardless, Jennifer's original posting > made me think about what might motivate a PhD versus > a DVM. And it also made me think about my own belief > that a DVM is more likely to be a better choice for > the position as director of animal care. > > > > And to the point, my institutional officials - and > probably those of other universities - most > definitely view animal welfare as policy, at least > in relation to the animal care program. Thus, > because they see animal care as having to do with > policy, they believe a veterinarian is required > and/or better suited to the job; at least this is my > impression. Again, I do not totally disagree with > this viewpoint for in fact the role of the director > of animal care has largely to do with implementation > and documentation of policy. And because the PhD is > strictly a research degree and the DVM degree and > profession by its very nature involves more > regulation and enforcement, then vets may well be > better suited to jobs that have to do with > enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. > > > > However, when it comes to developing policy, I have > long advocated the importance of having input and > involvement from all parties. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" 14-MAY-2007 18:24:58.98 To: IN%"jlanier@hsi.org" "Jennifer Lanier", IN%"GGolab@avma.org" "Dr. Gail Golab", IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Yes, Jennifer, there have a few examples of institutions in the USA where the bureaucrat in charge of regulatory enforcement on the animal-care front is not a veterinarian- The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and The Pennsylvania State University come to mind- There is a de facto requirement that institutional animal care committees have in its membership at least one veterinarian, but that is the only position in an institution's enforcement structure that requires a veterinarian- I do still agree with Ray Stricklin that it will be mostly those educated and trained as veterinarians as opposed to scientists without veterinary study who will be attracted to the bureaucracy- At the same time, I do agree with Jennifer's concern that limiting a call for pplicants to veterinarians well might "send a message that DVMs are the appropriate persons for such positions"- Who is going to take on the job of clearing up this confusion with the general public?- -Stan Curtis Department of Animla Sciecnes University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:42:43 -0400 >From: Jennifer Lanier >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: "Dr. Gail Golab" , applied-ethology@usask.ca > > Point taken. I was thinking in a small arena of > those with hands-on experience and those without. > > > > As a talking point, it is interesting that Ray is > looking for a DVM to fill the position of director > of animal care. The exclusion of PhD or others as > Ray would have preferred would limit the applicant > base as well as send a message that DVMs are the > appropriate persons for such positions. Job > requirements such as this say that the title held is > of more value than the experiences and background. > Experience is important when applications are up for > consideration. But the qualification for the > position clearly implies that PhDs and other non-DVM > need not apply as they are not considered to be > effective welfare agents at this level. > > > > Granted I do not have the entire job description, so > I am basing this off of the small amount of > information that Ray posted. And I am not attacking > Ray or the U of Maryland, but rather hoping to > further explore our views of who are the appropriate > people to be welfare agents. > > > > > > > > Ray's post: > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the > > > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire > a > > > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > > > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > > > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job > description > > > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM > diplomat > > > are preferred." > > > > > > Jennifer > > > > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. > > Director of Scientific Programs > > Humane Society International - Trade > > 2100 L St. NW > > Washington, DC 20037 USA > > jlanier@hsi.org > > (240) 888 1217 cell > > (202) 778 6148 > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > From: Dr. Gail Golab [mailto:GGolab@avma.org] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 6:14 PM > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca; securtis@uiuc.edu > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > Hi Jennifer, > > > > You knew it was going to happen ...I have to > disagree with your assumption that veterinarians > fall into two categories. In fact, there are a > number of practicing veterinarians who regularly > deal with policy issues; there are other full-time > veterinarian "bureaucrats" who maintain their > licenses and practice on the side; and then there > are those whose practice experiences (plus or minus > academic expertise in specialty areas) are what got > them into the bureaucratic positions in the first > place. I would be very careful about assuming what a > veterinarian is or is not doing, or has or has not > done, unless you've personally examined their > CV/resume'. We're a remarkably versatile group! > > > > Gail > > > > Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM > > Associate Director, Animal Welfare > > AVMA > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > From: Jennifer Lanier [mailto:jlanier@hsi.org] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:55 PM > To: securtis@uiuc.edu; applied-ethology@usask.ca > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > If I get this wrong, feel free to correct me! There > are two types of veterinarians, those who practice > and those who don't (policy). Many of the > veterinarians that I am seeing taking positions of > authority have had no or little hands-on experience > with animals after receiving their degree. > Experience of veterinarians, PhDs, and self educated > persons in all fields should enter the discussion of > who are the welfare agents and who is considered for > what type of post. > > > > > > Jennifer > > > > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. > > Director of Scientific Programs > > Humane Society International - Trade > > 2100 L St. NW > > Washington, DC 20037 USA > > jlanier@hsi.org > > (240) 888 1217 cell > > (202) 778 6148 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 5:37 PM > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > > > > > Ray Stricklin wrote: > > " . . . vets may well be better suited to jobs that > have to do with enforcement of animal welfare policy > procedures. However, when it comes to developing > policy, I have long advocated the importance of > having input and involvement from all parties." > > > > I strongly subscribe to these notions of his- > > > > Perhaps veterinarian-bureaucrats serving in such > positions ought to hold a better-descriptive title > such as "director of regulatory enforcement -- > animal care" or some such- > > > > -Stan Curtis > > Department of Animal Sciences > > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > > > > > > > > ---- Original message ---- > > >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:26:52 -0400 > > >From: Ray Stricklin > > >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > > > > > Jennifer Lanier wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > In the minds of governments is welfare policy or > > > practice? ... > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > Jennifer and All, > > > > > > > > > > > > I will not attempt to answer the above question > in > > > relation to governments. But the posting is > related > > > to some of my thoughts regarding my own > > > institution's officials, and these thoughts I > did > > > not include in my previous posting. > > > > > > > > > > > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help > the > > > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire > a > > > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > > > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > > > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job > description > > > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM > diplomat > > > are preferred." > > > > > > > > > > > > In truth, I believe that the number of PhDs who > > > could do the job is very, very small. And in > > > thinking about the work related to the position, > I > > > am not so sure that there are very many PhDs who > > > would be both capable and also would want the > type > > > of work required in this job. Maybe I am wrong > about > > > this, but these thoughts did influence my > previous > > > posting. Regardless, Jennifer's original posting > > > made me think about what might motivate a PhD > versus > > > a DVM. And it also made me think about my own > belief > > > that a DVM is more likely to be a better choice > for > > > the position as director of animal care. > > > > > > > > > > > > And to the point, my institutional officials - > and > > > probably those of other universities - most > > > definitely view animal welfare as policy, at > least > > > in relation to the animal care program. Thus, > > > because they see animal care as having to do > with > > > policy, they believe a veterinarian is required > > > and/or better suited to the job; at least this > is my > > > impression. Again, I do not totally disagree > with > > > this viewpoint for in fact the role of the > director > > > of animal care has largely to do with > implementation > > > and documentation of policy. And because the PhD > is > > > strictly a research degree and the DVM degree > and > > > profession by its very nature involves more > > > regulation and enforcement, then vets may well > be > > > better suited to jobs that have to do with > > > enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, when it comes to developing policy, I > have > > > long advocated the importance of having input > and > > > involvement from all parties. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? > Then join our online community and sign up for our > Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . > > > > > > > > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? > Then join our online community and sign up for our > Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . > > > From: IN%"rbogle@sonic.net" "Rick Bogle" 15-MAY-2007 12:14:10.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents "There is a de facto requirement ..." I believe this is statutory. Rick Bogle Madison, WI > -----Original Message----- > From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 7:25 PM > To: Jennifer Lanier; Dr. Gail Golab; applied-ethology@usask.ca > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > > Yes, Jennifer, there have a few examples of institutions in the > USA where the bureaucrat in charge of regulatory enforcement on > the animal-care front is not a veterinarian- The University of > Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and The Pennsylvania State > University come to mind- There is a de facto requirement that > institutional animal care committees have in its membership at > least one veterinarian, but that is the only position in an > institution's enforcement structure that requires a veterinarian- > I do still agree with Ray Stricklin that it will be mostly those > educated and trained as veterinarians as opposed to scientists > without veterinary study who will be attracted to the > bureaucracy- At the same time, I do agree with Jennifer's > concern that limiting a call for pplicants to veterinarians well > might "send a message that DVMs are the appropriate persons for > such positions"- > > Who is going to take on the job of clearing up this confusion > with the general public?- > > -Stan Curtis > Department of Animla Sciecnes > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > > > ---- Original message ---- > >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:42:43 -0400 > >From: Jennifer Lanier > >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > >To: "Dr. Gail Golab" , applied-ethology@usask.ca > > > > Point taken. I was thinking in a small arena of > > those with hands-on experience and those without. > > > > > > > > As a talking point, it is interesting that Ray is > > looking for a DVM to fill the position of director > > of animal care. The exclusion of PhD or others as > > Ray would have preferred would limit the applicant > > base as well as send a message that DVMs are the > > appropriate persons for such positions. Job > > requirements such as this say that the title held is > > of more value than the experiences and background. > > Experience is important when applications are up for > > consideration. But the qualification for the > > position clearly implies that PhDs and other non-DVM > > need not apply as they are not considered to be > > effective welfare agents at this level. > > > > > > > > Granted I do not have the entire job description, so > > I am basing this off of the small amount of > > information that Ray posted. And I am not attacking > > Ray or the U of Maryland, but rather hoping to > > further explore our views of who are the appropriate > > people to be welfare agents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray's post: > > > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the > > > > > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire > > a > > > > > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > > > > > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > > > > > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job > > description > > > > > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM > > diplomat > > > > > are preferred." > > > > > > > > > > > > Jennifer > > > > > > > > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. > > > > Director of Scientific Programs > > > > Humane Society International - Trade > > > > 2100 L St. NW > > > > Washington, DC 20037 USA > > > > jlanier@hsi.org > > > > (240) 888 1217 cell > > > > (202) 778 6148 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Dr. Gail Golab [mailto:GGolab@avma.org] > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 6:14 PM > > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca; securtis@uiuc.edu > > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > > > > > Hi Jennifer, > > > > > > > > You knew it was going to happen ...I have to > > disagree with your assumption that veterinarians > > fall into two categories. In fact, there are a > > number of practicing veterinarians who regularly > > deal with policy issues; there are other full-time > > veterinarian "bureaucrats" who maintain their > > licenses and practice on the side; and then there > > are those whose practice experiences (plus or minus > > academic expertise in specialty areas) are what got > > them into the bureaucratic positions in the first > > place. I would be very careful about assuming what a > > veterinarian is or is not doing, or has or has not > > done, unless you've personally examined their > > CV/resume'. We're a remarkably versatile group! > > > > > > > > Gail > > > > > > > > Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM > > > > Associate Director, Animal Welfare > > > > AVMA > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Jennifer Lanier [mailto:jlanier@hsi.org] > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:55 PM > > To: securtis@uiuc.edu; applied-ethology@usask.ca > > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > > > > > If I get this wrong, feel free to correct me! There > > are two types of veterinarians, those who practice > > and those who don't (policy). Many of the > > veterinarians that I am seeing taking positions of > > authority have had no or little hands-on experience > > with animals after receiving their degree. > > Experience of veterinarians, PhDs, and self educated > > persons in all fields should enter the discussion of > > who are the welfare agents and who is considered for > > what type of post. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jennifer > > > > > > > > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. > > > > Director of Scientific Programs > > > > Humane Society International - Trade > > > > 2100 L St. NW > > > > Washington, DC 20037 USA > > > > jlanier@hsi.org > > > > (240) 888 1217 cell > > > > (202) 778 6148 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 5:37 PM > > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray Stricklin wrote: > > > > " . . . vets may well be better suited to jobs that > > have to do with enforcement of animal welfare policy > > procedures. However, when it comes to developing > > policy, I have long advocated the importance of > > having input and involvement from all parties." > > > > > > > > I strongly subscribe to these notions of his- > > > > > > > > Perhaps veterinarian-bureaucrats serving in such > > positions ought to hold a better-descriptive title > > such as "director of regulatory enforcement -- > > animal care" or some such- > > > > > > > > -Stan Curtis > > > > Department of Animal Sciences > > > > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- Original message ---- > > > > >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:26:52 -0400 > > > > >From: Ray Stricklin > > > > >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > > > > > > > > > Jennifer Lanier wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the minds of governments is welfare policy or > > > > > practice? ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jennifer and All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will not attempt to answer the above question > > in > > > > > relation to governments. But the posting is > > related > > > > > to some of my thoughts regarding my own > > > > > institution's officials, and these thoughts I > > did > > > > > not include in my previous posting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help > > the > > > > > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire > > a > > > > > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > > > > > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > > > > > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job > > description > > > > > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM > > diplomat > > > > > are preferred." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In truth, I believe that the number of PhDs who > > > > > could do the job is very, very small. And in > > > > > thinking about the work related to the position, > > I > > > > > am not so sure that there are very many PhDs who > > > > > would be both capable and also would want the > > type > > > > > of work required in this job. Maybe I am wrong > > about > > > > > this, but these thoughts did influence my > > previous > > > > > posting. Regardless, Jennifer's original posting > > > > > made me think about what might motivate a PhD > > versus > > > > > a DVM. And it also made me think about my own > > belief > > > > > that a DVM is more likely to be a better choice > > for > > > > > the position as director of animal care. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And to the point, my institutional officials - > > and > > > > > probably those of other universities - most > > > > > definitely view animal welfare as policy, at > > least > > > > > in relation to the animal care program. Thus, > > > > > because they see animal care as having to do > > with > > > > > policy, they believe a veterinarian is required > > > > > and/or better suited to the job; at least this > > is my > > > > > impression. Again, I do not totally disagree > > with > > > > > this viewpoint for in fact the role of the > > director > > > > > of animal care has largely to do with > > implementation > > > > > and documentation of policy. And because the PhD > > is > > > > > strictly a research degree and the DVM degree > > and > > > > > profession by its very nature involves more > > > > > regulation and enforcement, then vets may well > > be > > > > > better suited to jobs that have to do with > > > > > enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, when it comes to developing policy, I > > have > > > > > long advocated the importance of having input > > and > > > > > involvement from all parties. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? > > Then join our online community and sign up for our > > Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? > > Then join our online community and sign up for our > > Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . > > > > > > > From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 15-MAY-2007 12:25:54.65 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Stanley Curtis wrote: > de rigeur de rigueur ... John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ From: IN%"jlanier@hsi.org" "Jennifer Lanier" 15-MAY-2007 12:49:01.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents This list has made clear that what we hope is for welfare to be all inclusive regarding disciplines. But it appears to be also quasi declaring that in reality we value DVMs over other titles or experiences as welfare agents. At a meeting in Uruguay on animal welfare last month, an OIE official said (I'll paraphrase from my notes) 'vets are the ones with knowledge of animals, so they are the best ones [suited to be welfare agents,] with some additional training.' I am sure that there are many people who would find this statement rather unsettling. I challenge statements and beliefs like the above because I truly believe that it is the individual who makes a good welfare agent not their title, education level, position in an organization, etc. Granted titles and the like provide status and access to create change. Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Humane Society International - Trade 2100 L St. NW Washington, DC 20037 USA jlanier@hsi.org (240) 888 1217 cell (202) 778 6148 -----Original Message----- From: Rick Bogle [mailto:rbogle@sonic.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 2:14 PM To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents "There is a de facto requirement ..." I believe this is statutory. Rick Bogle Madison, WI > -----Original Message----- > From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 7:25 PM > To: Jennifer Lanier; Dr. Gail Golab; applied-ethology@usask.ca > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > > Yes, Jennifer, there have a few examples of institutions in the > USA where the bureaucrat in charge of regulatory enforcement on > the animal-care front is not a veterinarian- The University of > Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and The Pennsylvania State > University come to mind- There is a de facto requirement that > institutional animal care committees have in its membership at > least one veterinarian, but that is the only position in an > institution's enforcement structure that requires a veterinarian- > I do still agree with Ray Stricklin that it will be mostly those > educated and trained as veterinarians as opposed to scientists > without veterinary study who will be attracted to the > bureaucracy- At the same time, I do agree with Jennifer's > concern that limiting a call for pplicants to veterinarians well > might "send a message that DVMs are the appropriate persons for > such positions"- > > Who is going to take on the job of clearing up this confusion > with the general public?- > > -Stan Curtis > Department of Animla Sciecnes > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > > > ---- Original message ---- > >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:42:43 -0400 > >From: Jennifer Lanier > >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > >To: "Dr. Gail Golab" , applied-ethology@usask.ca > > > > Point taken. I was thinking in a small arena of > > those with hands-on experience and those without. > > > > > > > > As a talking point, it is interesting that Ray is > > looking for a DVM to fill the position of director > > of animal care. The exclusion of PhD or others as > > Ray would have preferred would limit the applicant > > base as well as send a message that DVMs are the > > appropriate persons for such positions. Job > > requirements such as this say that the title held is > > of more value than the experiences and background. > > Experience is important when applications are up for > > consideration. But the qualification for the > > position clearly implies that PhDs and other non-DVM > > need not apply as they are not considered to be > > effective welfare agents at this level. > > > > > > > > Granted I do not have the entire job description, so > > I am basing this off of the small amount of > > information that Ray posted. And I am not attacking > > Ray or the U of Maryland, but rather hoping to > > further explore our views of who are the appropriate > > people to be welfare agents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray's post: > > > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the > > > > > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire > > a > > > > > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > > > > > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > > > > > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job > > description > > > > > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM > > diplomat > > > > > are preferred." > > > > > > > > > > > > Jennifer > > > > > > > > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. > > > > Director of Scientific Programs > > > > Humane Society International - Trade > > > > 2100 L St. NW > > > > Washington, DC 20037 USA > > > > jlanier@hsi.org > > > > (240) 888 1217 cell > > > > (202) 778 6148 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Dr. Gail Golab [mailto:GGolab@avma.org] > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 6:14 PM > > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca; securtis@uiuc.edu > > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > > > > > Hi Jennifer, > > > > > > > > You knew it was going to happen ...I have to > > disagree with your assumption that veterinarians > > fall into two categories. In fact, there are a > > number of practicing veterinarians who regularly > > deal with policy issues; there are other full-time > > veterinarian "bureaucrats" who maintain their > > licenses and practice on the side; and then there > > are those whose practice experiences (plus or minus > > academic expertise in specialty areas) are what got > > them into the bureaucratic positions in the first > > place. I would be very careful about assuming what a > > veterinarian is or is not doing, or has or has not > > done, unless you've personally examined their > > CV/resume'. We're a remarkably versatile group! > > > > > > > > Gail > > > > > > > > Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM > > > > Associate Director, Animal Welfare > > > > AVMA > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Jennifer Lanier [mailto:jlanier@hsi.org] > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:55 PM > > To: securtis@uiuc.edu; applied-ethology@usask.ca > > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > > > > > If I get this wrong, feel free to correct me! There > > are two types of veterinarians, those who practice > > and those who don't (policy). Many of the > > veterinarians that I am seeing taking positions of > > authority have had no or little hands-on experience > > with animals after receiving their degree. > > Experience of veterinarians, PhDs, and self educated > > persons in all fields should enter the discussion of > > who are the welfare agents and who is considered for > > what type of post. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jennifer > > > > > > > > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. > > > > Director of Scientific Programs > > > > Humane Society International - Trade > > > > 2100 L St. NW > > > > Washington, DC 20037 USA > > > > jlanier@hsi.org > > > > (240) 888 1217 cell > > > > (202) 778 6148 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 5:37 PM > > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray Stricklin wrote: > > > > " . . . vets may well be better suited to jobs that > > have to do with enforcement of animal welfare policy > > procedures. However, when it comes to developing > > policy, I have long advocated the importance of > > having input and involvement from all parties." > > > > > > > > I strongly subscribe to these notions of his- > > > > > > > > Perhaps veterinarian-bureaucrats serving in such > > positions ought to hold a better-descriptive title > > such as "director of regulatory enforcement -- > > animal care" or some such- > > > > > > > > -Stan Curtis > > > > Department of Animal Sciences > > > > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- Original message ---- > > > > >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:26:52 -0400 > > > > >From: Ray Stricklin > > > > >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > > > > > > > > > Jennifer Lanier wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the minds of governments is welfare policy or > > > > > practice? ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jennifer and All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will not attempt to answer the above question > > in > > > > > relation to governments. But the posting is > > related > > > > > to some of my thoughts regarding my own > > > > > institution's officials, and these thoughts I > > did > > > > > not include in my previous posting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help > > the > > > > > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire > > a > > > > > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > > > > > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > > > > > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job > > description > > > > > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM > > diplomat > > > > > are preferred." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In truth, I believe that the number of PhDs who > > > > > could do the job is very, very small. And in > > > > > thinking about the work related to the position, > > I > > > > > am not so sure that there are very many PhDs who > > > > > would be both capable and also would want the > > type > > > > > of work required in this job. Maybe I am wrong > > about > > > > > this, but these thoughts did influence my > > previous > > > > > posting. Regardless, Jennifer's original posting > > > > > made me think about what might motivate a PhD > > versus > > > > > a DVM. And it also made me think about my own > > belief > > > > > that a DVM is more likely to be a better choice > > for > > > > > the position as director of animal care. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And to the point, my institutional officials - > > and > > > > > probably those of other universities - most > > > > > definitely view animal welfare as policy, at > > least > > > > > in relation to the animal care program. Thus, > > > > > because they see animal care as having to do > > with > > > > > policy, they believe a veterinarian is required > > > > > and/or better suited to the job; at least this > > is my > > > > > impression. Again, I do not totally disagree > > with > > > > > this viewpoint for in fact the role of the > > director > > > > > of animal care has largely to do with > > implementation > > > > > and documentation of policy. And because the PhD > > is > > > > > strictly a research degree and the DVM degree > > and > > > > > profession by its very nature involves more > > > > > regulation and enforcement, then vets may well > > be > > > > > better suited to jobs that have to do with > > > > > enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, when it comes to developing policy, I > > have > > > > > long advocated the importance of having input > > and > > > > > involvement from all parties. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray Stricklin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? > > Then join our online community and sign up for our > > Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? > > Then join our online community and sign up for our > > Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . > > > > > > > Interested in taking action online to help animals? Then join our online community and sign up for our Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" 15-MAY-2007 13:29:06.86 To: IN%"rbogle@sonic.net" "Rick Bogle", IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Rick Bogle- I thought USPHS policy was that it is "statutory" requirement only if an entity wishes to be eligible for federal funding of its projects- As most if not all universities wish to be eligible for fedeal funding, it is, "de facto", a requirement- But I may stand to be corrected . . . "it's been a while"- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:13:31 -0500 >From: Rick Bogle >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > >"There is a de facto requirement ..." I believe this is statutory. > >Rick Bogle >Madison, WI > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] >> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 7:25 PM >> To: Jennifer Lanier; Dr. Gail Golab; applied-ethology@usask.ca >> Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> >> >> >> >> Yes, Jennifer, there have a few examples of institutions in the >> USA where the bureaucrat in charge of regulatory enforcement on >> the animal-care front is not a veterinarian- The University of >> Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and The Pennsylvania State >> University come to mind- There is a de facto requirement that >> institutional animal care committees have in its membership at >> least one veterinarian, but that is the only position in an >> institution's enforcement structure that requires a veterinarian- >> I do still agree with Ray Stricklin that it will be mostly those >> educated and trained as veterinarians as opposed to scientists >> without veterinary study who will be attracted to the >> bureaucracy- At the same time, I do agree with Jennifer's >> concern that limiting a call for pplicants to veterinarians well >> might "send a message that DVMs are the appropriate persons for >> such positions"- >> >> Who is going to take on the job of clearing up this confusion >> with the general public?- >> >> -Stan Curtis >> Department of Animla Sciecnes >> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign >> >> >> ---- Original message ---- >> >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:42:43 -0400 >> >From: Jennifer Lanier >> >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> >To: "Dr. Gail Golab" , applied-ethology@usask.ca >> > >> > Point taken. I was thinking in a small arena of >> > those with hands-on experience and those without. >> > >> > >> > >> > As a talking point, it is interesting that Ray is >> > looking for a DVM to fill the position of director >> > of animal care. The exclusion of PhD or others as >> > Ray would have preferred would limit the applicant >> > base as well as send a message that DVMs are the >> > appropriate persons for such positions. Job >> > requirements such as this say that the title held is >> > of more value than the experiences and background. >> > Experience is important when applications are up for >> > consideration. But the qualification for the >> > position clearly implies that PhDs and other non-DVM >> > need not apply as they are not considered to be >> > effective welfare agents at this level. >> > >> > >> > >> > Granted I do not have the entire job description, so >> > I am basing this off of the small amount of >> > information that Ray posted. And I am not attacking >> > Ray or the U of Maryland, but rather hoping to >> > further explore our views of who are the appropriate >> > people to be welfare agents. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Ray's post: >> > >> > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the >> > >> > > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire >> > a >> > >> > > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have >> > >> > > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or >> > >> > > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job >> > description >> > >> > > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM >> > diplomat >> > >> > > are preferred." >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Jennifer >> > >> > >> > >> > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. >> > >> > Director of Scientific Programs >> > >> > Humane Society International - Trade >> > >> > 2100 L St. NW >> > >> > Washington, DC 20037 USA >> > >> > jlanier@hsi.org >> > >> > (240) 888 1217 cell >> > >> > (202) 778 6148 >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > From: Dr. Gail Golab [mailto:GGolab@avma.org] >> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 6:14 PM >> > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca; securtis@uiuc.edu >> > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi Jennifer, >> > >> > >> > >> > You knew it was going to happen ...I have to >> > disagree with your assumption that veterinarians >> > fall into two categories. In fact, there are a >> > number of practicing veterinarians who regularly >> > deal with policy issues; there are other full-time >> > veterinarian "bureaucrats" who maintain their >> > licenses and practice on the side; and then there >> > are those whose practice experiences (plus or minus >> > academic expertise in specialty areas) are what got >> > them into the bureaucratic positions in the first >> > place. I would be very careful about assuming what a >> > veterinarian is or is not doing, or has or has not >> > done, unless you've personally examined their >> > CV/resume'. We're a remarkably versatile group! >> > >> > >> > >> > Gail >> > >> > >> > >> > Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM >> > >> > Associate Director, Animal Welfare >> > >> > AVMA >> > >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > From: Jennifer Lanier [mailto:jlanier@hsi.org] >> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:55 PM >> > To: securtis@uiuc.edu; applied-ethology@usask.ca >> > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> > >> > >> > >> > If I get this wrong, feel free to correct me! There >> > are two types of veterinarians, those who practice >> > and those who don't (policy). Many of the >> > veterinarians that I am seeing taking positions of >> > authority have had no or little hands-on experience >> > with animals after receiving their degree. >> > Experience of veterinarians, PhDs, and self educated >> > persons in all fields should enter the discussion of >> > who are the welfare agents and who is considered for >> > what type of post. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Jennifer >> > >> > >> > >> > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. >> > >> > Director of Scientific Programs >> > >> > Humane Society International - Trade >> > >> > 2100 L St. NW >> > >> > Washington, DC 20037 USA >> > >> > jlanier@hsi.org >> > >> > (240) 888 1217 cell >> > >> > (202) 778 6148 >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] >> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 5:37 PM >> > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca >> > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Ray Stricklin wrote: >> > >> > " . . . vets may well be better suited to jobs that >> > have to do with enforcement of animal welfare policy >> > procedures. However, when it comes to developing >> > policy, I have long advocated the importance of >> > having input and involvement from all parties." >> > >> > >> > >> > I strongly subscribe to these notions of his- >> > >> > >> > >> > Perhaps veterinarian-bureaucrats serving in such >> > positions ought to hold a better-descriptive title >> > such as "director of regulatory enforcement -- >> > animal care" or some such- >> > >> > >> > >> > -Stan Curtis >> > >> > Department of Animal Sciences >> > >> > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ---- Original message ---- >> > >> > >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:26:52 -0400 >> > >> > >From: Ray Stricklin >> > >> > >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> > >> > >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Jennifer Lanier wrote: >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > In the minds of governments is welfare policy or >> > >> > > practice? ... >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Jennifer and All, >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > I will not attempt to answer the above question >> > in >> > >> > > relation to governments. But the posting is >> > related >> > >> > > to some of my thoughts regarding my own >> > >> > > institution's officials, and these thoughts I >> > did >> > >> > > not include in my previous posting. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help >> > the >> > >> > > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire >> > a >> > >> > > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have >> > >> > > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or >> > >> > > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job >> > description >> > >> > > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM >> > diplomat >> > >> > > are preferred." >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > In truth, I believe that the number of PhDs who >> > >> > > could do the job is very, very small. And in >> > >> > > thinking about the work related to the position, >> > I >> > >> > > am not so sure that there are very many PhDs who >> > >> > > would be both capable and also would want the >> > type >> > >> > > of work required in this job. Maybe I am wrong >> > about >> > >> > > this, but these thoughts did influence my >> > previous >> > >> > > posting. Regardless, Jennifer's original posting >> > >> > > made me think about what might motivate a PhD >> > versus >> > >> > > a DVM. And it also made me think about my own >> > belief >> > >> > > that a DVM is more likely to be a better choice >> > for >> > >> > > the position as director of animal care. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > And to the point, my institutional officials - >> > and >> > >> > > probably those of other universities - most >> > >> > > definitely view animal welfare as policy, at >> > least >> > >> > > in relation to the animal care program. Thus, >> > >> > > because they see animal care as having to do >> > with >> > >> > > policy, they believe a veterinarian is required >> > >> > > and/or better suited to the job; at least this >> > is my >> > >> > > impression. Again, I do not totally disagree >> > with >> > >> > > this viewpoint for in fact the role of the >> > director >> > >> > > of animal care has largely to do with >> > implementation >> > >> > > and documentation of policy. And because the PhD >> > is >> > >> > > strictly a research degree and the DVM degree >> > and >> > >> > > profession by its very nature involves more >> > >> > > regulation and enforcement, then vets may well >> > be >> > >> > > better suited to jobs that have to do with >> > >> > > enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > However, when it comes to developing policy, I >> > have >> > >> > > long advocated the importance of having input >> > and >> > >> > > involvement from all parties. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Regards, >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Ray Stricklin >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Interested in taking action online to help animals? >> > Then join our online community and sign up for our >> > Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Interested in taking action online to help animals? >> > Then join our online community and sign up for our >> > Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . >> > >> > >> > >> From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" 15-MAY-2007 13:43:28.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" "applied-ethology network" CC: Subj: Fwd: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents Second transmission attempt- --Boundary_(ID_e9J3Ypf2uzusmBpozyLJdA) Content-type: message/rfc822; name="Message 111.eml" Received: (from expms6.cites.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.212]) by expms6.cites.uiuc.edu (MOS 3.7.5a-GA) with HTTP/1.1 id AOM31629 (AUTH securtis); Tue, 15 May 2007 14:34:51 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 14:34:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Stanley Curtis Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents To: John Burchard , Applied Ethology list Reply-to: securtis@uiuc.edu MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mirapoint Webmail Direct 3.7.5a-GA Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thank you, John- First, a typographical error, and, it turns out, the spelling was incorrect anyway- My first-year rhetoric professor at DePauw University told us that he didn't expect us to be perfect spellers but he did expect us to use the dictionary- In the past, I've usually followed that advice . . . - -Stan Curtis ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:15:05 -0700 >From: "John Burchard" >Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: , "Applied Ethology list" > >Stanley Curtis wrote: > >> de rigeur > >de rigueur ... > >John >-- >Dr. John Burchard >Tepe Gawra Salukis >saluqi@ix.netcom.com >http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ --Boundary_(ID_e9J3Ypf2uzusmBpozyLJdA)--