From:	IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net"  "Robin Walker"  1-MAY-1998 00:57:30.57
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)"
CC:	IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net"  "'billcamp@cdsnet.net'", IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com"  "'JBrody@compuserve.com'"
Subj:	The DSM and the Road to Risperidone

On Thursday 30th April James F. Brody forwarded the following:-


Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: "James F. Brody" <JBrody@compuserve.com>
From: billcamp@cdsnet.net (Bill Campbell)
Subject: Re: Message from Internet

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the note. I'm not a veterinarian, so I wonder if you'd post this
response to the list? It might be interesting to see if Robin Walker or
other vets would comment. I have never read or heard of risperidone's use in
animals. However, if it can produce tractability in aggressive dogs, then
rehab therapy could be used and... if the new learning [and attitude] were
not to be state-dependent, it could be a boon... in the right hands, that is.

Bill Campbell

  

>Hello ...
>
>You might consider risperidone for hyperkinesis and explosive aggression.  
>It (among gawd knows what else) seems to block dopamine sites as well as
>some serotonin sites in people.   <Snip>

***************

Dear Bill and All interested in this topic,

Let us take a quick look at some of the cases which occur and see how they
fit the labels of the budding veterinary version of the DSM. 

 I have some video film of a desperate German Pointer in the apparent grip
of some behaviour problem. On sunny days it stands in a large garden
quiveringly alert, 'pointing' and poised for the advent of shadows of birds
overflying. It dashes after the shadows, tirelessly, hour upon hour unless
brought indoors. There it becomes acutely distressed, panting and pacing
until it is allowed out to resume the 'driven' behaviour pattern.

On the presumption that the dog had some compulsion endlessly to
repeat this behaviour, and in the face of failed attempts to engage it  in
any alternative activity by any means whatever, it was 'medicated'.

Fluoxetine (Prozac) was chosen. The effect was apparent within a couple of days.
The dog now chased the shadows with redoubled vigour and when
brought in ,out of concern for its physical health, became violently
agitated and distinctly aggressive. 

A hasty reappraisal of the dog and its plight led to the alternative
assumption that maybe, rather than some kind of "OCD or stereotypy",
perhaps this was a manifestation of a "seizure disorder".

Discounting the hype, humbug and commercially directed preferences
and prejudices of the pharmaceutical scene. the dog was medicated
with the most effective anti-convulsant (bar none) for this species.

On phenobarbitone, at a low dose of 2 mg per kilogram, ALL the disturbed
behaviour very promptly ceased.

Four years later my analysis of these events is provisionally this:-

The diagnosis is 'hedonic dysregulation'.  The plight of the 'manic'
dog was possibly a lack of inhibition of reward. It is now well
established  that much of the chemistry of reward is opioid and dopamine 
based and it is restrained, counterbalanced, or  dampened, by GABAergic
regulatory mechanisms. Phenobarbitone in the dog is a precise and potent
agonist in the GABA (benzodiazepine receptor complex). 

This particular Pointer was, in my view, possibly a victim of a form of
"hyperhedony" which was increased by the Prozac and finally
brought within a normal range of homeostasis by the Phenobarbitone.

Intense selection by breeders for the obligatory inbuilt motivation of
this 'bird dog' behaviour clearly predisposes the type of dog to the risk 
if this type of over expression

The labels 'stereotypical, OCD or epileptic,' are not adequate.

****

 A Border Collie Cross was presented  (1993) with intractable 'fly catching'
 A walk with this dog was impossible. Incessant snapping and 
swooping at invisible objects was only punctuated by plunging its
head into pools or water filled ditches to 'blow bubbles' beneath the 
surface. Indoors in very dim light to 'fly-catching' gave way to
a very slow , rather eerie, half crouched, stalking around the walls
of the room.  The behaviour was greatly alleviated, I am told, by
diazepam, after complete failure to achieve relief by any form
of behaviour therapy or ingenious intervention that could be devised

Today's analysis of this bizarre behaviour has provisionally settled
on the following proposition.

The inbred, innate behaviour sequence of 'eye-crouch-stalk-run in- etc.'
of the Collie is present but hedonically dysregulated. The eye
component was present by corrupted into over rewarded 'fly catching'.
In dim light the second component of the sequence could supervene
and  an 'over rewarded' almost ecstatic stalking ensued. 
The water plunging and bubble blowing might be attributed to a disorder
of the temporal lobe duties of facial recognition (prosopagnosia - which is
of course Greek for inability to recognise faces). The dog saw its reflection
in the water and attempted a dialogue with it!

Well - I laughed too.   But this week I am apprised of a 17 week old
Border Collie pup in Belfast which is already an manic flycatcher and
is only distracted  when showing great interest in the surfaces of puddles 
into which it will stare fixedly.

A Rotweiler in a rescue kennel is (this week) staring fixedly at the floor as
if in a trance. It has also on occasions glared into its water bowl and
spent time dashing all the water out onto to floor with its paw.

I have a video of an English Bull Terrier which repeatedly is 
'captured' by the pattern on the floor coverings and goes into
a trance 'eyeing' the surface and then slowly begins a routine
of pouncing onto the spot in question. It sways back, gathers
itself and leaps straight up landing with its front paws on target.
The pouncing and trancing goes on the hours. (GABA ergic
therapy has once again greatly alleviated this.) 

A diagnostic schema must surely be based upon a continuum
of hedony (or reward neurophysiology) which allows the propositions
that there may be either too great a reinforcement or too feeble an
inhibitory mechanism for a balanced homeostasis of highly
motivated routines. 

After reviewing reports on 114 English Bull Terriers which go into
helpless, ecstatic. trances of what seems to be pure pleasure, when
tickled by garden foliage or household drapes I am inclined to
suggest that we recognise a state of  'Status Hedonicus' or being
paralysed with pleasure!

Wholly different are the cases where it would seem that the 
individual has a craving or need for rather more hedony than
its own neurochemistry will provide or its environment allow!

Here the organism seems to learn to 'work' for its rewards
perhaps employing variants of the ' singing and dancing and oral
gratification' routines for which Homo sapiens sells tickets?

Tail chasing for example might be categorised as a 'play'
routine that has become easily evoked on a pretext for 
self gratification. Perhaps ' Auto-hedonia' could serve.

Here medications which raise or enhance the chemistry
of reward can induce a state of resting contentment or
satiety which obviates the 'craving'. Provided the organism
HAS  the necessary neural tracts, the necessary chemistry
and of course the receptors essential for the experience
or expression of hedony.

The therapist must constantly try to divine the position
or setting of the 'hedonestat' and decide between 
trying to 'turn it up' or 'turn it down'

Something approaching disaster might occur if a reward
enhancing drug is given to a creature which currently
enjoys nothing so much as attacking others or smashing
the furniture.

In Ethology and Psychopharmacy, (Cooper and Hendrie),
chapter 17 'The Relevance of Ethology for Animal Models
of Psychiatric Disorders: A Clinical Perspective. pp 329 - 340.
Alfonso Troisi mentions the apparent influence of social factors
on drug response:
 
"For example there is abundant evidence that animals of different
rank respond differently to the same dose of pharmacological agent" .

I do not quite agree with this. I think that a hedonic theory can show
that the animals are responding exactly as they should but not as
the experimenters EXPECTED.

"For example "Miczek and Gold 1983 demonstrated that, in adult
squirrel monkeys, the effects of d-amphetamine depended on the
social status of the individual monkeys within their group: low doses
of the drug reduced agonistic behaviour in dominant monkeys but 
induced complete social isolation in subordinate monkeys."

An apparent paradox -but IS it? These are healthy creatures
with normal hedonic homeostasis. The 'dominant' individuals
are not psychopathic. They are privileged and rather well
rewarded by their status. Not obvious candidates for drug abuse
or the induction of mania. Dopamine enhancement in these
monkeys might be confidently predicted as enhancing resting
contentment and making them rather more mellow toward each other.

On the other hand the subordinate lives in apprehension and a state
of suspended aversion where the 'reward' is to be unmolested and to 
survive the day is a relief. Dopamine enhancement for these chaps
might be expected to reward more what is already rewarded. That
is of course successful avoidance. So they are shaped to avoid
comprehensively.  [Let us make no bones about it - humility is addictive.!
Watch the passing nun hugging the corridor wall. Troops allowed to run away 
regularly are brought back to a readiness to stand their ground with
some difficulty.  The treatment of long established avoidance behaviour
is working against a gradient of endogenous addiction]

Again .."Raleigh et al (1985) showed that, in vervet monkeys, dominant
and subordinate males differ in their sensitivity to drugs that enhance
central serotonergic function: fluoxetine, quipazine and tryptophan
increased approaching and grooming and decreased avoiding and vigilance
much more in dominant than in subordinate males."   
The effects of serotonin reuptake inhibition (with NE and ACh) and serotonin
increase via tryptophan are quite entirely comparable but the relevant effect
(among others) is still centred on hedonic enhancement.

What about Risperidone?  Well I have never used it. But if I did I think I 
would be guided by a rational approach to reward chemistry rather than
current nosology and the bald categorisation of the drug's licensed use.

In 'hyper hedonia' or 'status hedonicus' where serotonin and dopamine
activity is way 'off scale' there could well be a rationale. The caveat is
not to use it where hedony is balanced (normal but naughty) or in 
'hypo hedonia'.   We must remember that learning is contingent on
reward chemistry for both memory and motivation to persevere.

Our main misuse of medication centres around the above.

Robin.

From:	IN%"Paul.Koene@ETHO.VH.WAU.NL"  1-MAY-1998 02:07:14.44
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Nonhuman primates, EC and ISAE

Dear ISAE-members working with nonhuman primate (laboratory) animals,

Appendix A of the 'European Convention for the Protection of Vertebrate 
Animals Used for Experimental and Other Scientific Purposes (ETS 123, 1986)' 
will be changed in 2 years. It was agreed that several working groups of 
experts should be formed to propose modifications of this Appendix. I have 
been appointed by the ISAE to represent us in the group working on nonhuman 
primates. It is important that there is a strong impact of the ISAE. 
The first questions of the expert group are related to 1) careful reading of 
Appendix A and related topics, 2) find all relevant published material 
related to cage and groups size, 3) contact all groups who work with nonhuman 
primates, 4) send to these groups a questionnaire related to housing, 
handling etc. (information is confidential and lists are kept secret). 
To increase the impact of the ISAE I have some questions:
1. Who are working with nonhuman primates (preferably in experimental 
research), are on our network and are interested and willing to participate 
in an advisory group? Please send your email address to me personally (not to 
the list), so that I can add you to my mailing list, and I can consult you on 
specific questions.
2. If you have read Appendix A and have specific comments related to nonhuman 
primates, please send them to me.
3. If you have literature (on cage size, furniture, enrichment etc.) 
especially relevant to the above questions please send it to me.
4. If there are research centers or people involved on our network, that did 
not receive a questionnaire through other channels, please contact me, so I 
can send you a questionnaire (and other relevant information) and help to get 
the information at the right place.

Please contact me on the above points,

Thanks list,

Paul Koene

P.S. other information related to nonhuman primates in research is of course 
always welcome, especially concerning the most relevant species, i.e. Macaca 
fascicularis, Macaca mulatta, Cercopithecus aethiops, Papio sp., Saimiri 
sciureus, Callithrix jacchus, Pan toglodytes

Paul Koene, PhD
Ethology Group
Department of Animal Sciences
P.O. Box 338 / 6700 AH Wageningen
The Netherlands
Telephone +31 (0)317 482896
Telefax +31 (0)317 485006
E-mail: Paul.Koene@etho.vh.wau.nl
WWW: http://www.zod.wau.nl/~www-vh/etho/
Private:
De Hoef 29
6708 DC Wageningen
The Netherlands
Telephone +31 (0)317 425473

From:	IN%"dreyn@sirius.com"  1-MAY-1998 12:25:09.56
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied-Ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	New Subscriber/Barn Owl Release Efforts

Greetings to all:
I am an animal handler/wildlife educator at Lindsay Wildlife Museum in 
Walnut Creek, CA. Am very interested in all issues of discussion re:
ethics of animal use in this field.

Currently, I am hoping to make contact w/ others who may have 
experience in captive wildlife release efforts (in my case, into 
primarily urban areas). I am monitoring a barn owl that we released 
the middle of April. He may have been imprinted during his stay w/ 
humans.
Would like to compare notes w/ others re: behavior of "imprinted" 
raptors after reintroduction.

Thank you -Donna

From:	IN%"lmoffat@uoguelph.ca"  "L. Moffat"  2-MAY-1998 13:13:45.56
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	foraging

Hello, my name is Lesley Moffat and I am currently doing a Masters in
Animal Science at the University of Guelph.  The focus of my research will
be on foraging behaviour in chickens.  I am particularly interested in the
importance of this behaviour to the birds, as well as finding an
appropriate "artificial" substrate to allow foraging behaviour if one day
it could be incorporated into the commercial industry.  I would be very
appreciative if someone could give me any references of articles that may
be pertinent to my study.  I am not only interested in domestic fowl
foraging habits but as well wild fowls' - it would be interesting to make
some comparisons!
Thanks for any help you may be able to offer!
Lesley
lmoffat@uoguelph.ca

From:	IN%"olin@multi.fi"  3-MAY-1998 10:22:20.36
To:	IN%"'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'@agda.multi.fi"
CC:	
Subj:	Vicious Rottweiler

I have been attacked by our neighbours Rottweiler. I was not injured and it
happened of the neighbours yard. My reaction to the event that the dog of
cause should be put out. But the neighbour has an other opinion. At first
the owner did not even agree to keep it leashed, but now confronted with
the possibility of a court case he gave in and have it contained. The dog
is very powerful and we still do not feel safe. The dog is a female about 5
years old. Apparently it has not been tested. According to the owner the
dog has no history of violence toward humans, but from what I have heard it
has earlier threatened people entering or coming close to their yard. It
has also a history of serious fights with other dogs outside their
property. The dog doesn't stay in their yard.

In your opinion, is it advisable to let such a dog live? If so, under what
conditions?

The neighbour keeps the dog inside in their house together with a daughter
that soon will two years old. Is this advisable?


Please reply directly to: olin@multi.fi

From:	IN%"zara_bandara@hotmail.com"  "Sara Gillispie"  3-MAY-1998 13:09:08.69
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	

hi, my name is Sara and I am doing a project about animals defence 
against natural ememies, both from instinct and taught. I need any 
information or tips of sites on the net about changes of color or 
certain behavior when hiding from enemy. My project i due thursday so I 
would be very pleased with any information that you might have.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com"  "Kattykorn2"  3-MAY-1998 14:35:25.93
To:	IN%"olin@multi.fi", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Vicious Rottweiler

I am very sorry to hear about your bad experience with this dog.  It is very
frightening to be attacked by a dog so large.

There was a typo in your post, but if I understand you correctly the dog was
not in her own yard?  It is very difficult to evaluate this, because one must
actually observe the dog to make an accurate summation of the potential danger
it may or may not represent.

Also, there is much information missing here.  Where were you when the dog
attacked?  What were you doing?  Were you afraid of the dog before this
attack?  What was the extent and nature of any interaction you had with the
dog prior to this attack?

To me, one of the most telling facts is that you say you were not injured.
You do not explain why.  Were you able to get away, did the dog stop short of
inflicting injury?  My guess is that if this dog was a truly vicious dog,
being a mature Rottie, you would have been injured.  The fact that you were
not inclines me to believe the dog is not truly vicious.  

You say the dog does not stay in the yard.  Is the yard fenced and the dog
escapes?  Or is this an unfenced yard?  Because this dog routinely comes
outside of the property line of the owner's yard, she may consider that part
of your yard, the sidewalk, the street, etc. as part of her "territory".  She
is a guarding breed, and may have simply been doing what she was bred to do,
guard her territory.  She would have no concept of the human definition of her
territory.  Similar instances where she threatened other people that came onto
or near what she considers her territory would be expected from any guarding
breed.  Again, it may be a telling clue that no one was ever actually injured.
A truly vicious dog would have been following up on the threat with an actual
biting attack.  The other dogs she has fought with..were they running loose
also?  It is the nature of dogs, especially guarding breeds, to defend what
they consider their territory aggressively against other dogs they consider
"trespassers".

I don't believe that her actions towards you are any indication that she may
not be safe with the child of her own family.  You are not a member of her
"pack", the child is.  Aggression towards an outsider is not a measure of her
safety with her own people.

I think your problem is more that you are dealing with owners whose level of
responsibility, education and awareness is lacking, rather than dealing with a
dangerous dog.  Often, dogs are total sweethearts with their own families, and
the owners simply fail to understand that their dog could be a serious threat
to outsiders (not MY sweet Queenie), or they have no true awareness of how
frightening it is to be confronted by their dog when it is in "guarding" mode.

In other words, the owners, not the dog, may be at fault.  In which case it
would be highly unfair to take the life of the dog.  It is irresponsible for
these owners to allow their dog to be out of their own yard.  Or to be loose
in the front yard where she might terrify passer by or someone coming up to
ring the front door bell.

I'll bet my bippy this dog has never received any training, never attended an
obedience class?  If it were me, I would insist on the dog being kept confined
to her own property in what ever manner necessary, and to be on leash at all
times if outside of the house in an unfenced area.  You are well within your
rights there.  I also would pressure the owners to have the dog evaluated by a
knowledgeable trainer and share the result of the evaluation with you.  If the
evaluator thinks the dog is vicious, you have further established your
grounds.  If the evaluator thinks the dog just needs better controls, then
insist they follow through with attending a basic obedience class. These are
reasonable requests on your part, and less antagonistic than suggesting the
dog be put down.  The threat of lawsuit is good leverage to get them to
comply.  If the dog ends up attending obedience class, everyone benefits, you,
because the owner awareness will be improved and they will have more control
on their dog, the owners, for the same reasons and because they will lower
their legal risks, the dog, because she will be better behaved and not at risk
for losing her
life.

If the owners refuse to cooperate with you on this, you may have no choice but
to follow through with legal complaint and action.  Again, allowing the dog to
be loose is very irresponsible of them.  However, unless the dog is proven
vicious, I would use legal pressure to force proper and responsible dog
ownership rather than requiring the dog be destroyed.  It sounds as if the dog
may be as much of a victim of their irresponsibility and lack of education as
are the neighbors.

There is not enough information here, as I have said.  So I am not saying that
it is not possible that the dog is truly vicious.  But I do believe the fact
that you were not actually injured, and neither has anyone else been, is a
strong indication that the dog is just trying to drive off people and other
dogs she considers trespassers on what she believes to be her own territory.
This is normal behavior for most dogs, and especially for guarding breeds.  It
is not indicative of aberrant behavior (viciousness).

Kathy Hughes
National Rescue Chairman
Thai Ridgeback Club of the United States
Hawkflight Kennels

From:	IN%"olin@multi.fi"  3-MAY-1998 23:48:16.14
To:	IN%"'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'@agda.multi.fi"
CC:	
Subj:	Re.. Vicious Rottweiler

Ooops! Sorry, there was a confusing typing error in my message. It should
read "...on the neighbour's yard".

Please overlook my poor English.

From:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be"  "E JORIS"  4-MAY-1998 03:25:09.62
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	Healthy animal-human animal interaction.

This is more for those psychologists who are also connected to the group. It
is a question which is keeping me busy for quite a while already. A few
weeks  (months?) ago there was a program on the Flemish television in which
the public gets a saying in some actual problems. This time it was about
animal welfare groups and their behaviour. I did not watch the whole program
as I got very annoyed by it but at the end of the program the animal right
activist of the organization (Gaia) was ask the question 'for who would you
choose, your child or you animal, if you had to'. This activist (and also
me) found this question very unfair, she because she does not have kids (and
maybe does not want them) and would never be confronted with this situation
and I find it a question which is unethical. Yes, I have thought about when
I am in Africa with two kids, one dog and three cats, what I should do when
I have to flee for war etc...  I actually asked that question once when I
met someone who had fled from Rwanda during the genocide. He said we had to
leave everything, I asked what about his animals, he looked at me in disgust
and said 'I just had arrived back from a conference and my Rwandan colleague
who was with me did not know if he still had a family'.
I just try to know what is healthy animal love, has there been more research
on for example why so many girls of 12 get completely mad about horses
(including me at the time). You also see it in adults, is it not fleeing
from reality? Is it compensation? Or is it just the same as being mad about
football.
I am very interested in your replies.
Eva.
eduard.joris@planetinternet.be

From:	IN%"PLXCMLN@pln1.life.nottingham.ac.uk"  "CHARLOTTE.M.L.NEVISON"  4-MAY-1998 04:56:53.24
To:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be"  "E JORIS"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Healthy animal-human animal interaction.

Hello Eva,

I was very interested in your mail, for it covered an area I have 
thought about a lot and, answering these questions honestly has 
probably resulted in me working in the area I am today (refinement of 
animal housing to improve the welfare of animals), rather than 
becoming an animal rights activist.

I am _passionate_ in my love and respect for all animals. However, 
upon asking myself 'who would you choose, your animal or child if you 
had to' I have to say I would probably choose my child (or as I do 
not have a child, my partner,or a member of my close family). If you 
you believe in evolution, as I do, you would probably argue this is a 
natural response as it would best enhance your inclusive fitness. Most 
religeons would probably have an alternative reason for this choice. 
This is not just a choice we make in extreme conditions such as war 
(as in your example), but one we make (even if we do not care to 
admit it) every single day. For example, millions of rodents are used 
as experimental animals in drug development. Most activists would like
to see an end to this, and in an ideal world so would I. However, 
every time I take medication I am aware that I do so at the cost of 
many animal lives. If your partner or mother were dying of an 
as yet incurable disease would you want a drug developed to tackle 
it? Of course you would. And most drug development still involves 
using animals. So instead of picketing gates, breaking into labs and 
releasing animals (which incidentally is probably worse for their 
welfare rather than better!), I choose to support the development of 
alternatives to animal testing, and the refinement of experimental 
housing and techniques so that less animals are used, and the welfare 
of those that are used is the best it can possibly be. 

What does really annoy me, is the apparent naiveity of most animal 
rights activists in this area. For example, after the recent sad 
death of Linda McCartney, I believe people were asked to donate money to animal 
welfare charities (which I believe included the BUAV) or Cancer 
Research. This is more than a little ironic. I do not wish in any way to attack
the McCartneys ( Linda did done some great work to supply half decent
vegetarian food and against the fur trade (I don't believe in this day and age that 
wearing fur increases your inclusive fitness)), and I admit I don't really 
know the full extent of their views. But this is an apparently very 
public example of naivety which I have had to contend with in my 
personal life (eg. explaining to my friend the ardent vegetarian who 
works for Lever (!) why I am an animal lover yet have worked on 
refinement in a toxicology lab).

Incidentally, in answer to your question about what is healthy animal 
love, and the fascination many 12 year old girls have with ponies, 
many 12 year old girls fail to realise that  ponies need feeding, 
shoeing, worming etc etc. Whilst many 12 years olds have plenty of 
'love' for their ponies this does not apparently always mean a concern for 
their welfare. And this love often gets transferred to boys once they 
hit 14. I don't know what is healthy animal love either, but I know 
it does not always equate with animal welfare. But it should.

Just a few personal views.

Charlotte.



> This is more for those psychologists who are also connected to the group. It
> is a question which is keeping me busy for quite a while already. A few
> weeks  (months?) ago there was a program on the Flemish television in which
> the public gets a saying in some actual problems. This time it was about
> animal welfare groups and their behaviour. I did not watch the whole program
> as I got very annoyed by it but at the end of the program the animal right
> activist of the organization (Gaia) was ask the question 'for who would you
> choose, your child or you animal, if you had to'. This activist (and also
> me) found this question very unfair, she because she does not have kids (and
> maybe does not want them) and would never be confronted with this situation
> and I find it a question which is unethical. Yes, I have thought about when
> I am in Africa with two kids, one dog and three cats, what I should do when
> I have to flee for war etc...  I actually asked that question once when I
> met someone who had fled from Rwanda during the genocide. He said we had to
> leave everything, I asked what about his animals, he looked at me in disgust
> and said 'I just had arrived back from a conference and my Rwandan colleague
> who was with me did not know if he still had a family'.
> I just try to know what is healthy animal love, has there been more research
> on for example why so many girls of 12 get completely mad about horses
> (including me at the time). You also see it in adults, is it not fleeing
> from reality? Is it compensation? Or is it just the same as being mad about
> football.
> I am very interested in your replies.
> Eva.
> eduard.joris@planetinternet.be
> 
> 
Charlotte M.L. Nevison
Behaviour and Ecology Research Group,
Dept. of Life Sciences,
University Park,
Nottingham, NG7 2RD.

Tel: (0115) 9513247

From:	IN%"tongiorg@c220.unimo.it"  "Paolo Tongiorgi"  4-MAY-1998 05:25:32.93
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	collars for marmots

Dear researchers,
I am starting a research on alpine marmots. I need to mark the specimen to
recognize them by sight. I decided to use coloured collars. Does anybody
know if there is any harm for the animals? I am worried for at least two
resons: 1) alpine marmots live in a harsh enviroment (during winter the
temperature is several degrees below 0=B0C), I fear heat loss and infections
if the collar scrapes the neck skin; 2) marmots are burrowers: could the
collars be a problem for the animals while digging?=20
Ear tags and dye marking don't seem to work well as marking technics on
marmots. I cannot use collars on youngs. What to do?
I would greatly appreciate any suggestion on these topics.
With kindest regards

Andrea Cardini
Prof. Paolo Tongiorgi

Dipartimento di Biologia Animale
Universit=E0 di Modena
I-41100 MODENA, ITALY
office
ph.  +39 -59 -225067
fax  +39 -59 -219958
e-mail tongiorg@c220.unimo.it

home
ph. & fax  +39  -50  -555119

From:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com"  "James F. Brody"  4-MAY-1998 06:41:57.37
To:	IN%"PLXCMLN@pln1.life.nottingham.ac.uk"  "CHARLOTTE.M.L.NEVISON", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com"  "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com"  "Paleopsych"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Healthy animal-human animal interaction.

Hello!

There may be some relevance to r-selection in these issues.   (r-selectio=
n
was sketched to describe species that make little investment in their you=
ng
aside from generating lots of them ... a strategy that presumably worked
best in new settings with comparatively abundant but unreliable resources=

[although Wilson puts this latter a bit differently in "Consilience,"  I
still have to puzzle it through])

r-Selection also describes human behavior under different conditions.  =

I've stumbled onto applying the concept to issues beyond those of the
number of children that are produced biologically.   For example, in our
present culture, there are greater limits on many natural resources and t=
he
most abundant natural resource is that of other human beings.   Thus, HMO=
s,
insurance and auto salesmen, and telephone banks harvest all of us and do=

so with little parental investment (that is, no great loyalty from the
organization to or between salesmen) and with little thought to replaceme=
nt
of the resource (there are plenty of us "suckers" and no recurring social=

ties; use "cheater" mode). =


Back to the rat ... rats are comparatively abundant and replaceable in a
short time.   Thus, we use them partially because of availability and
replaceability.   Likewise for ants ... I'm more inclined to step on a
carpenter ant than on a spider (which I usually scoop carefully into a
small container and release outside).

In a choice between your kid and the last pair of rats, your kid might ha=
ve
to go.   I'd have to think long and hard about my kid .   The animal righ=
ts
activists and environmentalists -- and I tend to be one of them --
implicitly demand a reduction in your child's inclusive fitness by
expecting him/her to breed less and to make fewer demands on the
environment.   (Of course, there's selfish motives that apply ... we need=

our setting for any of us to survive or to survive in a more comfortable
style.   Also, interesting overlap with traditional values assessments
based on supply and demand.   I have pet ducks and my clients tease about=

hunting them.   My response is that given the numbers of ducks vs people,=

the opposite game might be indicated ... arm the birds because they are
more valuable!)

Jim =

From:	IN%"a.kwint@noldus.nl"  "Aurelia Kwint"  4-MAY-1998 08:09:42.74
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Video Analysis System to be won

A few weeks ago, we opened our video contest in which you can win a
full digital video analysis system. We have not received enough
entries to be able to award the first prize and we suspect that this
is due to the short period the contest was open for entries. We have
therefore extended the deadline to give more people a chance to
participate.

Details about the contest can be found on the web:
http://www.noldus.com/news/contest.htm. If you do not have web access,
feel free to email or fax me to receive the contest form which
includes the contest details by fax.

Please note that the minimum number of entries has not been reached
yet, this means that the chance of winning the prize is quite high!

Kind regards,


Aurelia Kwint
Organizing Committee
______________________________________
Aurelia Kwint
Consultant

Noldus Information Technology b.v.
Costerweg 5                     
P.O. Box 268                    
6700 AG Wageningen
The Netherlands

Phone: +31-(0)317-497677
Fax:   +31-(0)317-424496
E-mail: a.kwint@noldus.nl
WWW: http://www.noldus.com

From:	IN%"arnhei@krokur.is"  "arnhei"  4-MAY-1998 09:57:39.43
To:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be"  "E JORIS"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology"
Subj:	RE: Healthy animal-human animal interaction.

E JORIS wrote:

> I just try to know what is healthy animal love, has there been more research
> on for example why so many girls of 12 get completely mad about horses
> (including me at the time). You also see it in adults, is it not fleeing
> from reality? Is it compensation? Or is it just the same as being mad about
> football.

    Yes, I would be very interested in this too.  I live in Iceland, and here we
have these icelandic horses, small hardy horses.  Through the ages, horsemen
here have mostly been male, and that has just begun to change in the last
decades.  Today, there are still not more females than males in this sport, and
when I was beginning my coreer as a trainer, it was considered an unfeminin
thing to be "fighting" with these rough horses.  So I was something of a "tough"
girl.
    But when I hear from horsepeople in other countries, it seems to be the
other way around, boys shirk away from this girlish sport, and go into football
or something similar.  So this is not just something in the genes, but something
about upbringing, or something in the attitude towards horses in general, or
what...?  I ask myself.
                                Arnthrudur H.
***********************
Arnþrúður Heimisdóttir.
Ísland (Iceland).
Tel: 4671053
************************

"If one induces the horse to assume that carriage which it would adopt of its
own accord when displaying its beuty, then, one directs the horse to appear
joyous and magnificent, proud and remarkable for having been ridden."  Xenophon.


"No ride is ever the last one.  No horse is ever the last one you will have.
Somehow there will always be better horses, other places to ride them".  Monica
Dickens.

God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses.

From:	IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com"  "Kattykorn2"  4-MAY-1998 13:29:43.90
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Healthy animal-human animal interaction.

In a message dated 98-05-04 05:31:57 EDT, you write:

<< This is more for those psychologists who are also connected to the group.
It
 is a question which is keeping me busy for quite a while already. A few
 weeks  (months?) ago there was a program on the Flemish television in which
 the public gets a saying in some actual problems. This time it was about
 animal welfare groups and their behaviour. I did not watch the whole program
 as I got very annoyed by it but at the end of the program the animal right
 activist of the organization (Gaia) was ask the question 'for who would you
 choose, your child or you animal, if you had to'.  >>

Eva,

Above you use the terms "animal welfare" and "animal rights activist",
interchangeably.  Here in the United States, there is a big difference between
"animal welfare" and "animal rights".

Those who are proponents of "animal welfare" believe that all animals should
be properly housed and fed and receive good medical care.  They understand the
need for animal based medical research, but want to know such research is
necessary, productive, and done as humanely as possible.  They also understand
that man is historically, and by nature, omnivorous, and that man has always
eaten animals, worn their skins, etc.  They do not necessarily believe that
man is superior to animals, but they understand the natural order of the food
chain and how animals truly think and survive.  They are not prone to
"morphing" our fellow creatures, but respect them for their true natures.

Those who are proponents of "animal rights" believe that all animals are equal
to man in every way.  They want legal "personhood" under the law, giving the
animals the same legal status as humans.  They believe all humans should be
complete vegetarians and should not consume meat, fish, eggs, or dairy
products.  Nor, by their belief, should humans wear or use products made of
leather or fur.  They want to see an end to all domestic animals.  This
includes both companion animals and domestic farm animals raised for meat and
dairy.  Ingrid Newkirk, founder of PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of
Animals), is famous for her "...a rat is a pig is a boy.." quote.  In other
words, in answer to your question, she feels the rat should be equally as
important to save as the boy. They want an end to ALL medical research that
requires animals.  Some of the more radical "animal rights" groups have stated
that burglary, arson, and even murder are acceptable to protect the rights of
animals, including lab rats. They consider those that believe in the less
radical viewpoint of "animal welfare" to be just as unenlightened and criminal
as those that promote cock fights and dog fights.

I explain all this so you will understand that many people make a huge
differentiation between "animal welfare" and "animal rights".

I am a mere layperson.  But one can not be an observer of nature and not
realize that any species will act to preserve their own young before anything
else.  This is the natural order of things.  I love my companion animals
dearly.  I am capable of risking my own life to save them, but only if I know
my family members are safe first.  To equate the life of a dog, horse, cat, or
lab rat with that of my own child, or of ANY human child, would represent
aberrant behavior in my humble opinion.

I also have my own opinion as to what causes the kind of radicalism
demonstrated by the animal rights movement, but it would be interesting here
to see the opinions of some psychologists.

Your question is both practical and philosophical.  What is healthy animal
love?  It is also very complex.  For instance; if man is in need of more
agricultural land to feed himself, does he have the right to destroy animal
habitat to the extent of contributing to the extinction of some species?  This
is very complex, because part of the issue is mankind's rampant population
growth.  It also is a debate of the individual welfare versus the welfare of
all.  Should the farmer be told his children and family must starve because
they are, after all, a few too many?  If this saves certain other species from
extinction and benefits ecology, and thereby all of humanity, is it fair to
sacrifice the farmer and his family?  You see the depth and complexity of such
issues.

As for my personal answer to your question: I look at nature and am in humble
awe.  My dog has intelligence and abilities I can not begin to fathom or
understand.  He can survive in situations where I would quickly perish.  This
is true of all of the creatures I see.  I do not believe that God gave man
dominion over his fellow creatures.  I do not believe that man is "superior"
over other species.  Man has certain intelligence that other creatures do not
have, but they in turn, have intelligence that man does not possess.  I revere
all life.  I do not believe that man's intelligence is superior to that which
designed all in nature that I observe, and therefore I believe that man is
ludicrously egotistical to imagine he should, or could,  design a better
order.  I believe mankind errs in considering nature an opponent he must
conquer, rather than understanding that he is only one element in a system so
complex and delicately balanced that it defies his total comprehension.  A
system he would do better to accept harmonious coexistance in rather than one
he seeks to control.

But if both my dog and my child are threatened by fire, flood, war or other
calamity, there is no question I would save my child first, and grieve later
for the frailness of my humanity that did not allow for me to save my beloved
dog also.  To do otherwise would be against nature.  Like your acquaintance
who had fled from Rwanda, I would consider the question so moot as to be
ridiculous.

As for the propensity of adolescent girls to be horse crazy (I was one also),
that is a seperate issue, with seperate explanation.

Your humble layperson,

Kathy Hughes
National Rescue Chairman
Thai Ridgeback Club of the United States
Hawkflight Kennels

From:	IN%"dreyn@sirius.com"  4-MAY-1998 16:18:27.52
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied-Ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	More thoughts on healthy an/hum relationship

Regarding "healthy human-animal relationships" - particularly with 
young girls and horses. It is interesting to note that girls (myself 
included) become drawn to horses at an unfortunate time in their 
development when they begin to lose their personal power (at least, in 
western culture societies).

Psychologists have noted that girls starting around age nine begin to 
receive messages from society to "act more like a lady", in other 
words, give up "tom-boyish" ways, be polite, defer to others, etc.
In addition, they also receive instruction, encouragement (through 
media, etc.) as to how to be sexual - more to please others than self. 
It can be said that they are asked at this stage to begin trading 
their inherent confidence and power in in order to meet the prevailing 
society standards for women.

(Even though modern parents of girls may balk at this, I believe these 
messages are conveyed often subliminally like it or not. I am a 
teacher of kids this age -  the 'quieting down' of girls at this age 
is extremely dramatic as they transition.)

Then we have the horses. Many girls are nuts for them at this stage.

Connecting to and controlling an animal that is as powerful as a horse
and, traditionally considered a symbol for unleashed sexuality, must 
be a very healthy outlet for a personality who is being asked to 
stifle her own similiar characteristics.

A very interesting footnote in this story:
It is also quite common for adult women to re-spark (or, begin for the 
first time) a passionate interest in horses at a time in their life 
when they begin tackling issues of their past regarding sexual abuse, 
consequences of gender-bias, etc. As they gain confidence as a rider 
and nurture a healthy relationship to a potencially difficult animal, 
self-confidence and some of that bravado they may have lost as a 9 yr. 
old girl begin to resurface! Thus, the healing begins. 

So, I believe, in cases like this, we are seeing a very healthy use of 
human-animal relationship. Some may trust a relationship w/ an animal 
over human/human interaction for awhile. We all know animals don't lie 
nor have hidden agendas, so developing trust in this setting may set 
the stage for risking trust w/ a human later.

Any women readers out there with similiar experiences?

-Donna Reynolds dreyn@siriu.com

From:	IN%"RSlabinski.Administrator.Southampton@southampton.liunet.edu"  "Rob Slabinski"  4-MAY-1998 16:23:47.79
To:	IN%"Kirstyryl@aol.com"  "Kirsty ryl", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: African Wild cats and wolves

Kristy,
  I have an avid interst in all wild dogs, no matter where they come 
from.  What'cha working on?

> Anyone wo has any information or interest in African Wild cats or Wolves
> please e-mail me at the above address.  
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> Kirsty
> 

From:	IN%"RSlabinski.Administrator.Southampton@southampton.liunet.edu"  "Rob Slabinski"  4-MAY-1998 16:39:49.58
To:	IN%"zara_bandara@hotmail.com"  "Sara Gillispie", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Re:

Hi Sara,
  Just some examples of animals that change color when threatened by 
natural enemies.  I blieve, (but I'm not sure) flounder and octupus 
can change color when threatened.  I beleive also Siamese Fighting 
Fish change color too.  
  The purpose could either be to blend in with their natural 
environment to hide from the predator, or to perhaps 
scare away the predator with the color.  It all depends on what the 
species is.   Keep digging!
      Kathy Ring


> hi, my name is Sara and I am doing a project about animals defence 
> against natural ememies, both from instinct and taught. I need any 
> information or tips of sites on the net about changes of color or 
> certain behavior when hiding from enemy. My project i due thursday so I 
> would be very pleased with any information that you might have.
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com"  "Kattykorn2"  4-MAY-1998 18:20:23.76
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: More thoughts on healthy an/hum relationship

I agree with all that is said here.  I reached this age during the 50's, and
though it always seemed I was literally born with a passionate interest and
love of all animals, I developed an extreme love affair with the horse at
about the age of nine.  I do remember being conscious, even at that age, of an
instinctive rebellion against the societal role that I was expected to conform
to.  I did not want to be a "nice" girl.  I remember having terrible
conflicts.  I loved a pretty dress, but did not want to be expected to wear
them all the time, because I also loved blue jeans and bare feet.  I did not
want to conform, to be decorous, to be sweet and soft and compliant.  I wanted
to ride bareback through unfenced country side and feel the power of a horse
beneath me and the wind in my face.  Most of the time, I did not care what my
hair looked like or if my face was dirty.  But at the same time, I did want to
someday marry and have children and have a house of my own, because I loved to
nurture and decorate and nest.  It was a terrible conflict.  My parents had
not a clue what to do with their only daughter, and I was very angry that they
did not understand who I really was!

Kathy Hughes
In a message dated 98-05-04 18:32:58 EDT, you write:

<< Regarding "healthy human-animal relationships" - particularly with 
 young girls and horses. It is interesting to note that girls (myself 
 included) become drawn to horses at an unfortunate time in their 
 development when they begin to lose their personal power (at least, in 
 western culture societies).
 
 Psychologists have noted that girls starting around age nine begin to 
 receive messages from society to "act more like a lady", in other 
 words, give up "tom-boyish" ways, be polite, defer to others, etc.
 In addition, they also receive instruction, encouragement (through 
 media, etc.) as to how to be sexual - more to please others than self. 
 It can be said that they are asked at this stage to begin trading 
 their inherent confidence and power in in order to meet the prevailing 
 society standards for women.
 
 (Even though modern parents of girls may balk at this, I believe these 
 messages are conveyed often subliminally like it or not. I am a 
 teacher of kids this age -  the 'quieting down' of girls at this age 
 is extremely dramatic as they transition.)
 
 Then we have the horses. Many girls are nuts for them at this stage.
 
 Connecting to and controlling an animal that is as powerful as a horse
 and, traditionally considered a symbol for unleashed sexuality, must 
 be a very healthy outlet for a personality who is being asked to 
 stifle her own similiar characteristics.
 
 A very interesting footnote in this story:
 It is also quite common for adult women to re-spark (or, begin for the 
 first time) a passionate interest in horses at a time in their life 
 when they begin tackling issues of their past regarding sexual abuse, 
 consequences of gender-bias, etc. As they gain confidence as a rider 
 and nurture a healthy relationship to a potencially difficult animal, 
 self-confidence and some of that bravado they may have lost as a 9 yr. 
 old girl begin to resurface! Thus, the healing begins. 
 
 So, I believe, in cases like this, we are seeing a very healthy use of 
 human-animal relationship. Some may trust a relationship w/ an animal 
 over human/human interaction for awhile. We all know animals don't lie 
 nor have hidden agendas, so developing trust in this setting may set 
 the stage for risking trust w/ a human later.
 
 Any women readers out there with similiar experiences?
 
 -Donna Reynolds dreyn@siriu.com

From:	IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu"  "Plonsky, Mark"  4-MAY-1998 21:43:24.56
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"ETHOLOGY@SEGATE.SUNET.SE"  "'Ethology (Discussions on animal behaviour)'"
CC:	
Subj:	Types of aggression

Dear folks,

I am interested in categorization schemes for aggressive behavior.

Moyer distinguishes 8 types of aggression [Moyer, K.E. (1976). The
Psychobiology of Aggression. NY: Harper & Row.].

Mackenzie's scheme is specific to dogs and distinguishes 14 types of
aggression [Mackenzie, S.A. (1996). Decoys and Aggression: A Police K9
Trainer's Manual. Calgary, Alberta: Detselig Enterprises, Ltd.].

A comparison of the two schemes follows.

Mackenzie                  Moyer
---------                  -----
Predatory                  Predatory
Maternal                   Maternal
Sexual                     Sex-related
Territorial                Territorial
Learned                    Instrumental
Fear-induced               Fear-induced
Intermale                  Intermale
Social or dominance        
Irritable                  Irritable
Pain-induced
Redirected
Protective (variant of social mixed with some territorial)
Play (rough and tumble)
Idiopathic (resulting from biological malfunction)

I would be interested in comments on this issue and any additional
references to aggression categorization schemes. 

Thanx in advance,
Mark

Dog Training Site - http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm
-----  Mark Plonsky, Ph.D.         715-346-3961 wk    -----
-----  Psychology Dept.            715-346-2778 fx    -----
-----  University of Wisconsin     715-344-0023 hm    -----
-----  Stevens Point, WI  54481    mplonsky@uwsp.edu  -----
-----  http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm      -----

From:	IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au"  "Petherick, Carol"  4-MAY-1998 21:51:04.40
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "'ethology'"
CC:	
Subj:	Funding for cattle behaviour research

A short time back, if my memory serves me correctly, a message was put
out from a Professor (in Germany?) saying that he had funds available
for studying behaviour of free-ranging cattle.  Shortly after that I had
a problem with my mail and lost all my messages.  I have now had a
student approach me for information about funding for cattle behaviour
work.  Can the Professor in question please contact me
(petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au), or can somebody provide me with his e-mail,
please?  Perhaps there are also others out there who may have funds
available for a student - I'd be pleased to hear from you.
Many thanks,
Carol

From:	IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu"  "Kale H. McE. Kevan"  4-MAY-1998 22:27:06.47
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	IN%"zara_bandara@hotmail.com"  "Sara Gillispie"
Subj:	Re:

On Mon, 4 May 1998, Rob Slabinski wrote:

> Hi Sara,
>   Just some examples of animals that change color when threatened by 
> natural enemies.  I blieve, (but I'm not sure) flounder and octupus 
> can change color when threatened.  I beleive also Siamese Fighting 
> Fish change color too.  
>   The purpose could either be to blend in with their natural 
> environment to hide from the predator, or to perhaps 
> scare away the predator with the color.  It all depends on what the 
> species is.   Keep digging!
>       Kathy Ring

Octopus' will supposedly go pale if you shout at them. Folklore claims it
frightens them. I have never tried this. Male Siamese Fighting fish
(betas) will do a fabulous colourful display when presented with another
male, or a mirror. You can see this at your local pet store, if you are
lucky enough to have a local pet store that doesn't stress betas into
colourless lethargy by keeping them in tiny clear plastic cups all in a
row so that they must constantly display until exhausted and endure poor
water conditions at the same time. My pet oscar (Velvet Cichlid,
_Astronotus ocellatus_) changes colour. It is an albino and can appear
white, pale pink, or pale yellow. As you can probably guess, most people
don't notice. For a while I had one with wild-type colouration and it
changed colour quite noticably, from a sort of muddy black-green to medium
grey. If the colour change is a response to any external condition I am at
a loss as to what.

> > hi, my name is Sara and I am doing a project about animals defence 
> > against natural ememies, both from instinct and taught. I need any 
> > information or tips of sites on the net about changes of color or 
> > certain behavior when hiding from enemy. My project i due thursday so I 
> > would be very pleased with any information that you might have.

From:	IN%"cebradle@psych.adelaide.edu.au"  "<Full Name>"  4-MAY-1998 23:03:38.52
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	(no subject)

--Boundary_(ID_IwMbuROvfX2FHZ1ONEohPQ)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Hi, my name is Clare and I am beginning some research on the behaviour
of some Australian native rodents. I was wondering if anyone out there
knows whether the Bruce effect is known to occur in rats, or indeed any
other non Mus murids.

--Boundary_(ID_IwMbuROvfX2FHZ1ONEohPQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Hi, my name is Clare and I am beginning some research on the behaviour
of some Australian native rodents. I was wondering if anyone out there
knows whether the Bruce effect is known to occur in rats, or indeed any
other non <I>Mus</I> murids.</HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_IwMbuROvfX2FHZ1ONEohPQ)--

From:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj"  4-MAY-1998 23:43:26.52
To:	IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu"  "Kale H. McE. Kevan", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	IN%"zara_bandara@hotmail.com"  "Sara Gillispie"
Subj:	RE: colour changes

-----Original Message-----
From: Kale H. McE. Kevan <khkevan@brain.uccs.edu>
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca <applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca>
Cc: Sara Gillispie <zara_bandara@hotmail.com>
On Mon, 4 May 1998, Rob Slabinski wrote:
>> Hi Sara,
>>   Just some examples of animals that change color when threatened by
>> natural enemies.  I blieve, (but I'm not sure) flounder and octupus
>> can change color when threatened.  I beleive also Siamese Fighting
>> Fish change color too.
>>   The purpose could either be to blend in with their natural
>> environment to hide from the predator, or to perhaps
>> scare away the predator with the color.  It all depends on what the
>> species is.   Keep digging!
>>       Kathy Ring
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The champion colour changers are squid, most of the smaller species change
colours with lightning speed and you can even tell their mood from the
colour.  The east coast squid  (two species) are pale white when drifting
and relaxed (sleeping ?)  When they are hunting prey they seem to have waves
or patterns of colour all over the body (bluish to gray-green)  When
frightened or attacked they turn dark immediately (a reddish black colour).
By immediately I mean one second.  When they are angry or aggressive they
turn a bright red and then flush to a dark brick red and when they are angry
and then startled they keep the dark red colour and start developing black
spots all over their body.
These animals only live 18 months and after they breed they die within a
week or two.   After spawning they slowly change to a dark red
that (over a few days time) becomes a brownish orange or even wine colored
hue and retain that colour until they get weaker and die.
I suspect that the colour changes are not just random patterns since these
molluscs have excellent vision and are very sensitive to to the mood of
other squid in the shoal (or school), that is if one squid becomes
frightened or angry the other squid near it will also change colour to match
the pattern so it may well be some sort of signaling system.    Cj

From:	IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk"  5-MAY-1998 03:46:40.55
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology Mail Group"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

It seems to me that there are considerable difficulties with either/both of
the schema given by Mark.

Not having read the original papers, how does the observer differentiate
between "Intermale", "Sexual", "Territorial" "Social/dominance" etc.  ?  

It may be easier with the domestic dog, since the observer is likely to
have a more complete understanding of the context of the behaviour under
discussion, but in my view is still unsatisfactory.

To take an example; an aggresive interaction is observed between two male
dogs. The observer may be totally unaware that a bitch in the area is about
to enter oestrus but experienced stud dogs will be well aware some days
before any human observer. Is our observation"Sex related"? "Dominance"
related? "Intermale" ?

It seems to me at a superficial consideration that there needs to be some
sort of hierarchical structure relating the various categories described.

Chris

rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk
http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/

From:	IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk"  5-MAY-1998 03:46:48.23
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology Mail Group"
CC:	
Subj:	Social interations Domestic Cats

Can anyone refer me to any work in this field, preferably accessible to
someone with only limited access to an academic library.   I have read most
of Roger Tabor's output.

I am particularly interested in the changes in behaviour between two entire
domestic  felines (mother and daughter) during their reproductive cycles
and when with kittens.

If anyone is working in this or related area I have some observations to
report which may be of interest.

Best wishes

Chris

rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk
http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/

From:	IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk"  "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour"  5-MAY-1998 05:00:13.87
To:	IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu"  "Andrew Luescher"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: DSM

On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:00:17 -0700 Andrew Luescher wrote:

> From: Andrew Luescher <luescher@vet.purdue.edu>
> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:00:17 -0700
> Subject: DSM
> To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> 
> 
> John and all
> 
> Thanks for your contribution. This is a topic very close to my heart.
> 
> I am very afraid that a veterinary DSM would indeed be very restrictive. It
> would also mislead less experienced clinicians just because it would allow
> them to collect information in a more goal-directed, efficient way. When
> taking a history, I spend more time on early history of the animal, general
> management, type of training and training devices (in dogs), owner-pet
> interaction and the pet's temperament than I do on the behavior problem
> itself. I believe that such a holistic approach is more appropriate to
> re-integrate the pet into the owner's lives than a symptom-driven DSM-style
> approach to diagnosis. Furthermore, even when I address the actual
> presenting problem, I investigate it's development, since the way a
> behavior problem presents at a given time may often be misleading the
> investigator as to its cause. For instance, many dogs that present with
> "dominance aggression" towards their owners are actually fearful dogs, that
> initially showed fear aggression, but learned that it works every time, so
> now they show a confident type of aggression.
> 
> For these reasons, I don't think a veterinary DSM would be a useful tool;
> it would more likely be counte-productive and misleading.
> 
> I'm glad you brought this topic up. It is very timely and important. Thanks.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> >At 12:29 PM 4/28/98 +0100, you wrote:
> >>    Dear all,               It is  fascinating to see the various opinions
> >>of DSM from people to whom it has become  a burden in practice, where I can
> >>imagine it becomes highly  restrictive.   I was more interested in the use
> >>of a framework such as a  system of axes that enable clinicians to quickly
> >>structure their information  gathering, and keep their interview technique
> >>'open', i.e. forces people to  consider all aspects of a case and collect
> >>as much useful information as  possible from each case. Guidelines might
> >>include standard tests for conditionability,  assessments of the impact
> >>individual conditions have upon social function of the  animal in the
> >>household, etc.   Even if there was a schedule for information collection
> >>for a  limited group of disorders it would be useful ('stereotypy' would be
> >>a good one,  perhaps also disorders manifesting as aggressive).   I think
> >>the comparison between DSM and Microsoft was an  enlightening one! Perhaps
> >>the problem is who DSM is constructed and reviewed  by?     then compose a
> >>regularly reviewed summary.   Perhaps to suggest the use of a short
> >>research questionnaire  for one or two conditions each year as part of
> >>on-going research that could be  assessed separately.   I can see that
> >>politics and the influence of insurance  companies could cause the results
> >>of this report to be seen as a set of  guidelines for 'accepted practice'
> >>in the profession if clients start to get  litigious, but this is less of a
> >>problem in the UK at the moment.     Some (many?) clinicians may hate the
> >>DSM, but at  least they have a common arguing point !   Perhaps it is only
> >>helpful to have a structure like this early  on in the development of a
> >>clinical field, later on it hinders more than  helps?   Any comments?    
> >>Jon             
> >
> >
****************************************************************************
Dept. of Psychology
Washington Singer Labs
Room No: 016
University of Exeter
Perry Road
Exeter EX4 4QG, UK

FAX +44 1392 264623
****************************************************************************

I do agree with Andrew on this. When being consulted on behaviour problems, the time is spend much as he indicates, also with a 
serious assessment of the people themselves and the preconcieved notions they may have which in turn is adding to the problem or 
even causing it. In addition, the retraining and rehabilitation work has to be done, we have found from bitter experience with not only 
the animal patient, but the client owners handlers as well or it all goes wrong again when the animal goes home. Many others have of 
course had this experience. I would not consider a DSM is very useful unless this is all structured properly into it. 
Marthe Kiley-Worthington

From:	IN%"M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk"  "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour"  5-MAY-1998 05:05:51.61
To:	IN%"albertsen_d@alph.swosu.edu"  "DORIT ALBERTSEN"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: he/she/it&Ethics

****************************************************************************
Dept. of Psychology
Washington Singer Labs
Room No: 016
University of Exeter
Perry Road
Exeter EX4 4QG, UK

FAX +44 1392 264623
****************************************************************************

I have not entered into the he she it argument that has been raging, but just want to back up your position, also perhaps we should not 
make the animals slaves so much as employees or volunteers. Its worth thinking about, unless of course you dont believe they are 
sentient or have minds.
	Marthe Kiley-Worthington 

From:	IN%"J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk"  5-MAY-1998 05:19:33.36
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Mixing adult cats/kittens

Has anyone any tips on introducing an unrelated adult male cat
("Stanley") 
to kittens.   Stanley is 4 years old and has been used to living with
other 
cats in the past.  The kittens have just been separated from their
mother 
and are 7 weeks old.  The kittens, as would be expected, are fine about 
Stanley, but Stanley appears to be frightened of the kittens, shown by 
avoidance and lots of hissing.  We're giving Stanley lots of attention, 
and even tried a tip in a book, which suggested putting pilchard juice
on 
the kittens, so as to make them all smell the same and induce grooming
by 
the adult.  This didn't make any difference.  Does anyone know how best
to deal with this situation, other than simply giving the animal's time.
Julie

From:	IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk"  5-MAY-1998 05:54:43.62
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology Mail Group", IN%"J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Mixing adult cats/kittens

In my experience, and I have been thru this situation, time is the answer
here. You might try introducing the kittens (who BTW are very young for
rehoming IMO)  by putting them in a wire cage type cat carrier and letting
the adult experience them while they are confined.

My suspicion based on experience is that adult males' behaviour, even if
neutered, when encountering young kittens is influenced by need to prepare
for the sudden arrival of a highly protective adult female and therefore
the need 
to keep the kittens at a distance. 

In my domestic cats in the past, after a few days the kittens advances to
the male were accepted.

Best wishes

Chris

rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk
http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/

----------
> From: J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk
> To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
> Subject: Mixing adult cats/kittens
> Date: 05 May 1998 13:01
> 
> Has anyone any tips on introducing an unrelated adult male cat
> ("Stanley") 
> to kittens.   Stanley is 4 years old and has been used to living with
> other 
> cats in the past.  The kittens have just been separated from their
> mother 
> and are 7 weeks old.  The kittens, as would be expected, are fine about 
> Stanley, but Stanley appears to be frightened of the kittens, shown by 
> avoidance and lots of hissing.  We're giving Stanley lots of attention, 
> and even tried a tip in a book, which suggested putting pilchard juice
> on 
> the kittens, so as to make them all smell the same and induce grooming
> by 
> the adult.  This didn't make any difference.  Does anyone know how best
> to deal with this situation, other than simply giving the animal's time.
> Julie

From:	IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us"  "Paul Carella"  5-MAY-1998 12:41:18.79
To:	IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Healthy animal-human animal interaction. -Reply

I think Kathy Hughes' description of animal rightists is skewed.  Most
AR's do not believe that animals equal humans in every way, that they
should have the same legal status as humans, that there should be no
companion animals or that it is equally important to save the life of a pig
as that of a boy.  My own personal belief, which I think many others
share, is that animals should have the right to live lives that are free of
any unnecessary pain, suffering or death.

From:	IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu"  "Andrew Luescher"  5-MAY-1998 15:45:34.12
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

Chris

I agree with you. The existing categorization is inconsistent in that it
sometimes uses the mativaiton as a basis for categorization, and sometimes
a situation in which the aggression is displayed. Therefore, categories
overlap.

Andrew

At 10:38 AM 5/5/98 +0100, you wrote:
>It seems to me that there are considerable difficulties with either/both of
>the schema given by Mark.
>
>Not having read the original papers, how does the observer differentiate
>between "Intermale", "Sexual", "Territorial" "Social/dominance" etc.  ?  
>
>It may be easier with the domestic dog, since the observer is likely to
>have a more complete understanding of the context of the behaviour under
>discussion, but in my view is still unsatisfactory.
>
>To take an example; an aggresive interaction is observed between two male
>dogs. The observer may be totally unaware that a bitch in the area is about
>to enter oestrus but experienced stud dogs will be well aware some days
>before any human observer. Is our observation"Sex related"? "Dominance"
>related? "Intermale" ?
>
>It seems to me at a superficial consideration that there needs to be some
>sort of hierarchical structure relating the various categories described.
>
>Chris
>
>rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk
>http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/

From:	IN%"KAKerby@aol.com"  "KAKerby"  5-MAY-1998 18:39:53.67
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Mixing adult cats/kittens

I've introduced a lot of cats over the years, including toms, ferals, and
mothers with kittens.  The best introduction procedure I've found so far is a
combination of space, time and a place each animal can call its own.  For
example, when I adopted three feral kittens into a house w/ an adult neutered
male and spayed female, I confined the kittens to a room by themselves for
about a week.  The smells and sounds came under the door, so each knew the
other was there, but no one could see or touch the other.  Then I put a screen
in the doorway, and opened the door for a longer period each day, at first
just a crack then wider and wider.  That way, they could all get used to how
the others looked, again without risk of actual contact.  Finally, I allowed
the kittens out into the rest of the house for a brief time.  I kept a close
eye on everyone, but they all did OK.  For quite a while after that, I'd put
the kittens back in their 'room' at night, which gave everyone a break.
Several months later I had to move, and in the new house everyone staked out
their own favorite areas.

There will be hissing and posturing and carrying on, which is appropriate
behavior as each animal adjusts to the presence of others, but I've rarely
seen any actual fighting.  I generally allow them to posture all they want,
but in the advent of a fight I step in and break it up, separate the two for a
'cooling off' period, then watch them really closely for a while after that.
Animals that fight repeatedly will need some careful handling; sometimes more
space or time or attention from me will do the trick; other combinations
simply won't work.   For instance, I rescued one cat that refused to
integrate- he terrorized all the rest of the cats, even animals that were
twice his size.  Neutering and time and space and all the tricks up my sleeve
didn't change his aggressiveness.  Since he was so consistently aggressive
with the other cats, I placed him in a non-cat household.  He's now thriving
in that household.  Interestingly enough, this same cat turns out to have a
serious heart murmur and neuromuscular problems, such that he visibly shakes
when frightened and isn't as agile as other cats.  I've often wondered if his
aggressiveness is an attempt to hide his inherent weaknesses, sort of a 'get
them before they get me' mentality.

Anyway, I hope this has been helpful.  I'd be interested to know what others
have done w/ introduction methods/problems/solutions.  Kathryn

From:	IN%"albertsen_d@alph.swosu.edu"  "DORIT ALBERTSEN"  5-MAY-1998 19:22:49.34
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: human-animal relation

...here we go again! Isn't this one just another shade of the old question
about respect for others? We can not answer the "value-question" :>> Who is
more important, a child or a calf? << - more important to WHO?
	Very good point, the size of a population! In that way an eagle chick is
certainly worth more, than a human child.
But what an unorganized discussion. It is driven by emotion ( our own
instincts ) and cultural imprintment as well as ethical thougts. What a mess.
	Just curious: Would You folks save Your biological child before Your
adopted child, also? I would not leave the sinking ship without any of the
ones I am RESPONSIBLE for - my kids, cows, dogs & rats.
	Caring for the own bloodline primarily seems to be the picture of ones
love to oneself. Instinct or culture? Probably both, but certainly not ethic.
	whatdoyouthink?   Dorrit
Dorit Albertsen
PO Box 21
Colony, OK 73021
Usa

From:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj"  5-MAY-1998 22:36:21.10
To:	IN%"albertsen_d@alph.swosu.edu"  "DORIT ALBERTSEN", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: human-animal relations

-----Original Message-----
From: DORIT ALBERTSEN <albertsen_d@alph.swosu.edu>


>...here we go again! ...(snip) But what an unorganized discussion. It is
driven by emotion ( our own
>instincts ) and cultural imprintment as well as ethical thougts.  Just
curious: Would You folks save Your biological child before Your adopted
child, also?  Caring for the own bloodline primarily seems to be the picture
of ones
>love to oneself. Instinct or culture? Probably both, but certainly not
ethic. What do you think ?
>Dorit Albertsen

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
It is quite obvious that most cultural and survival behaviours in the animal
species on this planet are based on the survival of genetic lineages.  Or,
as Dawkins would have it, selfish genes.  Analyses of available ethological
data on most species provides a clear mathematical basis for these
assumptions and it applies to humans (especially to humans).  This genetic
survival tactic has served quit well in the recent history of the planet but
human activities have changed the equations.
Man must learn, and very quickly, that selfish genes will not survive at all
unless we understand that we have a biological vested interest in every
living species on thios planet.  Since we have reached the current stage of
ecological dominance
we are, either consciously or unconsciously,  going to determine the
parameters for the survival of all life on this planet.
Preservation of my own genetic line requires that I promote the survival of
species diversity on the entire planet since it is improbable that my
lineage will survive if the planet winds up covered with starving humans,
lots of rats and an enormous biomass of insects and bacteria.
It is quite obvious that we are in another world wide species die-off, this
time it isn't a comet but our own activities.  We cannot avoid it but we
might manage to reduce the impact on some of our own genetic combinations.
Conservation isn't a
current fad, it's the absolutely selfish realization that if we don't
preserve as much biodiversity as possible we are all on the way to becoming
part of the fossil record.  Thus the only salvation for humanity is
self-interest, we have to preserve all
to survive ourselves.  The hard part is convincing other people of the need
to be selfish about our ecosystem before it's too late for even the toughest
few of our species.
Cj

From:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj"  5-MAY-1998 22:56:43.61
To:	IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu"  "Andrew Luescher", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

Sorry to butt in but as a canid ethologist I have to say the categories of
types of "aggression" are unrealistic and
of little intrinsic or heuristic value.  The primary problem is that the
listings that were posted are both describing two totally different
behaviours as being the same thing and then compound the problem by listing
as aggressive behaviours three or four kinds of behaviours that represent,
in fact, only one class of agonistic interactions that are not aggression.
And then the lists randomly adds a few supposed "aggressive" behaviours that
are not only not aggressive but they aren't even agonistic.
I suggest that the original 'listers' terminate their mental masturbation
and do some real behavioural research.  Perhaps they could even spend an
hour or so looking at the animals that they think they're writing about
before they publish again.
Cj


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Luescher <luescher@vet.purdue.edu>
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca <applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca>
Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: Types of aggression


Chris
>I agree with you. The existing categorization is inconsistent in that it
>sometimes uses the mativaiton as a basis for categorization, and sometimes
>a situation in which the aggression is displayed. Therefore, categories
>overlap.    Andrew
>
>At 10:38 AM 5/5/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>It seems to me that there are considerable difficulties with either/both
of
>>the schema given by Mark.
>>
>>Not having read the original papers, how does the observer differentiate
>>between "Intermale", "Sexual", "Territorial" "Social/dominance" etc.  ?
>>
>>It may be easier with the domestic dog, since the observer is likely to
>>have a more complete understanding of the context of the behaviour under
>>discussion, but in my view is still unsatisfactory.
>>
>>To take an example; an aggresive interaction is observed between two male
>>dogs. The observer may be totally unaware that a bitch in the area is
about
>>to enter oestrus but experienced stud dogs will be well aware some days
>>before any human observer. Is our observation"Sex related"? "Dominance"
>>related? "Intermale" ?
>>
>>It seems to me at a superficial consideration that there needs to be some
>>sort of hierarchical structure relating the various categories described.
>>
>>Chris
>>
>>rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk
>>http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/

From:	IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com"  "Kattykorn2"  6-MAY-1998 00:38:22.85
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Healthy animal-human animal interaction. -Reply

In a message dated 98-05-05 14:47:41 EDT, you write:

<< I think Kathy Hughes' description of animal rightists is skewed.  Most
 AR's do not believe that animals equal humans in every way, that they
 should have the same legal status as humans, that there should be no
 companion animals or that it is equally important to save the life of a pig
 as that of a boy.  My own personal belief, which I think many others
 share, is that animals should have the right to live lives that are free of
 any unnecessary pain, suffering or death. >>

Paul,

The entire gist of my post was that, in today's environment, a clear
understanding of the difference between animal welfare and animal rights must
be established, or one could inadvertently find oneself in the wrong camp.  By
today's definition, your personal belief, based on your statement here, puts
you in the animal WELFARE, camp.  Do not make the mistake of describing
yourself as an animal rightist.  Ask the animal rightists and they will tell
you they believe in the more radical concepts as I described.  Those working
to support animal WELFARE, describe themselves exactly as you do.  There is a
big difference.  These terms were coined to clarify the difference so those
like yourself  would not be mistaken for the radicals that make up the animal
RIGHTS movement.  My definitions are not skewed.  My point was two seperate
terms, two very different positions and definitions.

Kathy Hughes

From:	IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk"  6-MAY-1998 02:32:00.85
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology Mail Group", IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj", IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

Don't apologise for butting in Cj ! My own first reaction to the categories
listed in Mark's post was "c***p!" but Andrew Luescher and yourself have
pinned down the problems in it much better than I did.

I only used the dog example as one most likely to be common ground. (I have
had dogs around all my life - one of whom, an experienced stud
Newfoundland, was the best oestrus detector bar none !  In a group training
situation, should any bitch within a week of "season" attend, he insisted
on getting submission signals from every male dog of Springer Spaniel size
or bigger -  "or else!" - unless the bitch was rapidly removed, whereupon
his normal "friendly" relations with other males immediately resumed) 

I am NOT a professional ethologist tho' I had some training in the field I
never actually used it. (I am a Zoology & Psychology grad, with a minor in
what was then called "Behaviour" but got suckered by £££ into admin far too
early in my career)

My prime interest now I have retired is communication in the genus
Agapornis (Lovebirds)

Chris

rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk
http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/

----------
> From: Cj <cwalt@ime.net>
> To: Andrew Luescher <luescher@vet.purdue.edu>;
applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
> Subject: Re: Types of aggression
> Date: 06 May 1998 05:56
> 
> Sorry to butt in but as a canid ethologist I have to say the categories
of
> types of "aggression" are unrealistic and
> of little intrinsic or heuristic value.  The primary problem is that the
> listings that were posted are both describing two totally different
> behaviours as being the same thing and then compound the problem by
listing
> as aggressive behaviours three or four kinds of behaviours that
represent,
> in fact, only one class of agonistic interactions that are not
aggression.
> And then the lists randomly adds a few supposed "aggressive" behaviours
that
> are not only not aggressive but they aren't even agonistic.
> I suggest that the original 'listers' terminate their mental masturbation
> and do some real behavioural research.  Perhaps they could even spend an
> hour or so looking at the animals that they think they're writing about
> before they publish again.
> Cj
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Luescher <luescher@vet.purdue.edu>
> To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca <applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca>
> Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 5:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Types of aggression
> 
> 
> Chris
> >I agree with you. The existing categorization is inconsistent in that it
> >sometimes uses the mativaiton as a basis for categorization, and
sometimes
> >a situation in which the aggression is displayed. Therefore, categories
> >overlap.    Andrew
> >
> >At 10:38 AM 5/5/98 +0100, you wrote:
> >>It seems to me that there are considerable difficulties with
either/both
> of
> >>the schema given by Mark.
> >>
> >>Not having read the original papers, how does the observer
differentiate
> >>between "Intermale", "Sexual", "Territorial" "Social/dominance" etc.  ?
> >>
> >>It may be easier with the domestic dog, since the observer is likely to
> >>have a more complete understanding of the context of the behaviour
under
> >>discussion, but in my view is still unsatisfactory.
> >>
> >>To take an example; an aggresive interaction is observed between two
male
> >>dogs. The observer may be totally unaware that a bitch in the area is
> about
> >>to enter oestrus but experienced stud dogs will be well aware some days
> >>before any human observer. Is our observation"Sex related"? "Dominance"
> >>related? "Intermale" ?
> >>
> >>It seems to me at a superficial consideration that there needs to be
some
> >>sort of hierarchical structure relating the various categories
described.
> >>
> >>Chris
> >>
> >>rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk
> >>http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/

From:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be"  "E JORIS"  6-MAY-1998 03:00:25.95
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	Human-animal ....

It is nice some of you guys have a life in which you never have to make
difficult choices. Your public is well educated and knows the difference
between animal welfare and animal rightists.....You have your instincts
defending you genes and you control your emotions. Are you known under the
'groupname' SCIENTISTS?

I have found myself in the African bush looking at some cows (I actually
filmed it with my video recorder) who were not doing 'well'. A lot of
blablabla, probably worms, certainly not a serious disease, a bit lack of
good
grazing, than my eye felt on the owners son, huge belly, not very healthy
and not at school...and than I wonder.... what am I doing here.
I have more than once fought for the decent treatment of animals in Africa
with people who had very little themselves and which was, if I would respect
culture, wrong.
Unless people are respected themselves (which we do not do) they will not
respect their animals. I am again wondering away from the topic but only to
show you it is not that straight forward. And that there are things to think
about, especially you guys discussing 'she, he or it' from your nice lab,
able to do research because animal welfare is trendy.... There is a lot to
think about unless you see it as a 9 to 5 job.
But maybe I am at the wrong discussion group...let me confess when I apply
for a job in Africa I never put 'MSc in Applied Animal Behaviour and Animal
Welfare', I leave the three last words away. But once in Africa I try in my
little own way to educate the children a bit about respect for living
things.
Eva.

From:	IN%"pherosynthese@wanadoo.fr"  6-MAY-1998 03:57:33.39
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "applied ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	in search of a postgraduation

Hello,

I have just graduated in veterinary medicine. I am keen on clinical
ethology and on neurosensorial physiology. I would like to proceed in
this field during the next academic year in a North-American university.

Does someone have a hint ?

Thanx for replying at the email address : pherosynthese@wanadoo.fr

Astrid DERRY

From:	IN%"pherosynthese@wanadoo.fr"  6-MAY-1998 03:58:27.80
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "applied ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	salivary cortisol in cats

Dear all,

Has any work been done on the dosage of salivary cortisol in cats and
its relation with stress ?

Thanks for your help.

Yann Tessier DVM

From:	IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk"  "Hans Erhard"  6-MAY-1998 05:30:06.93
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

Dear Mark and others interested in aggression,
There is one question connected to this topic which I've asked myself 
for a long time:  On top of  both lists of the 'types of aggression', 
there was 'predatory aggression'.  
 Is there anybody out there who actually believes that killing of 
prey by a predator is aggression? Is a cat killing a mouse aggressive 
or hungry, or just 'feeding motivated'?
  -  Warning!  The next comment is anthropomorphic. -  
 I do not experience any aggression towards my breakfast, lunch or 
dinner.  What makes us think a cat or dog does?  The facial 
expressions of predators killing prey are very different from the 
ones they have when they interact agonistically with conspecifics, so 
I've been told.   I've watched chickens fight, and I've watched them 
killing a longworm, and chasing after a mouse (the mouse escaped).  
The two behaviours were totally different.  
Wouldn't the categorisation schemes benefit if we dropped 
predatory 'aggression' from the list?

What do you think?

Hans

____________________________________
Hans Erhard
Macaulay Land Use Research Institute
Craigiebuckler
Aberdeen AB15 8QH
Tel.:  01224 - 318611
Fax.:  01224 - 311556
email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk

From:	IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk"  "R. Rodd"  6-MAY-1998 06:07:00.50
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

From the point of view of someone trying to "sell" rescue dogs to the
public I would be delighted if there was a clear message to potential dog
owners/adopters from ethologists that predation is NOT anything to do with
aggression. It is often very hard to get over to otherwise reasonable
people that a predatory, rabbit-chasing dog may not have the slightest
tendency to be other than friendly and gentle with people and other dogs. 

----------------------------------------
My opinions are my own Rosemary Rodd <rr25@cam.ac.uk> 
               01223 335029

From:	IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk"  6-MAY-1998 06:58:34.61
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

Hans Erhard wrote:

>  I do not experience any aggression towards my breakfast, lunch or 
> dinner. 

Dear Hans

A bowl of cereals is unlikely to evoke such a response in any normal 
person but if they were to face it three times a day they may start to get 
a little twitchy - sorry could'nt resist.

The difficulty with categorisation schemes for behaviours like 
aggression is that there are probably an infinite number of 
causal/functional reasons eg. defensive + aroused etc which may all 
share common behavioural elements of what summarily refer to as aggression.

I have a particular problem when it comes pigs (many of us do) in 
determining when play becomes aggression. This is a dilemma when it 
comes to welfare assessment because one is indicative of good welfare 
and the other poor welfare. 

Dale


Dale Arey GIBiol PhD
SAC Animal Biology Division
Ferguson Building
Craibstone 
Aberdeen AB21 9YA
UK
Tel: 01224 711058

From:	IN%"nick@bcrescue.org"  "Nicholas B. Carter"  6-MAY-1998 07:03:14.63
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

Hans Erhard wrote:
>There is one question connected to this topic which I've asked myself 
>for a long time:  On top of  both lists of the 'types of aggression', 
>there was 'predatory aggression'.  
> Is there anybody out there who actually believes that killing of 
>prey by a predator is aggression? Is a cat killing a mouse aggressive 
>or hungry, or just 'feeding motivated'?

Herding dogs, for example, display what one might term "predatory
aggression" to not only small animals but humans as well. The herding
instinct is a modified predatory instinct, and in that sense, some
encounters by a herding dog with small children running across a yard,
people on bicycles, etc. may be considered predatory aggression. It may not
be "aggression" if you consider aggression an action with "ill-intent" as
the dog is only doing what is natural for it to do, however I think most
other forms of aggression would also fall into a similar "natural" behavior
pattern like you mention. Is not male/male aggression simply "access to
female motivated" or territorial aggression simply "resource guarding
motivated"? In that sense, basically all forms of aggression are natural
displays of adaptive behaviors - it is simply when they are directed
towards humans or are disruptive to people's lives that we consider them to
be "negative".


Dr. Nicholas B. Carter
Border Collie Rescue

From:	IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA"  "Jeff Rushen"  6-MAY-1998 07:35:48.51
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression -REPONSE

>>> Dale Arey <d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk> 06/05/ 10h00 >>>
A bowl of cereals is unlikely to evoke such a response in
any normal person  (....snip......) I have a particular problem
when it comes pigs (many of us do) in determining when
play becomes aggression. This is a dilemma when it
comes to welfare assessment because one is indicative of
good welfare and the other poor welfare. >>>

I wonder. I could imagine that an attacking pig in a play fight
animal could be "playing" and hence be OK in terms of
welfare, while the receiver may not see it as play and hence
suffer as a result. In a "real fight" the welfare of the animal
that loses could be reduced while the welfare of the attacker
may still be OK. If an animal were sick or in a bad state, it
probably wouldn't initiate much aggression. Hence the fact
that an animal does initiate aggression may be a sign that
its welfare is OK. An absence of aggression could be a sign
of poor welfare.

Predators attacking the prey may not be feeling aggressive.
But I wonder how many jet fighter pilots in the middle of a
battle fire off their infra red guided missiles because they
feel aggressive? The advantages of the lists of types of
aggression is that they acknowledge that aggressive
behaviour is not a unitary type of behaviour with its own
distinct motivation, but is rather a set of instrumental
behaviours that is recruited to achieve a variety of goals,
and to help satisfy a variety of motivations. "Locomotion"
could probably be classified in the same way. 

Jeff Rushen

From:	IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us"  "Paul Carella"  6-MAY-1998 07:37:20.46
To:	IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Healthy animal-human animal interaction. -Reply -Reply

Kathy,
     I think you have taken the views of some people who believe
themselves to be animal rightists (i.e. the most radical and rabid) and
portrayed them as typical of believers in animal rights.  This is untrue and
unfair.  Many ARs are thoughtful, compassionate, realistic people.  Using
your approach, I would say that people who are animal welfarists are
only concerned with the treatment of cats, dogs and other "pets."  What
happens in factory farms, slaughterhouses, or research laboratories
does not interest them.
  

>>> Kattykorn2 <Kattykorn2@aol.com> 05/06/98 02:37am >>>
In a message dated 98-05-05 14:47:41 EDT, you write:

<< I think Kathy Hughes' description of animal rightists is skewed.  Most
 AR's do not believe that animals equal humans in every way, that they
 should have the same legal status as humans, that there should be no
 companion animals or that it is equally important to save the life of a pig
 as that of a boy.  My own personal belief, which I think many others
 share, is that animals should have the right to live lives that are free of
 any unnecessary pain, suffering or death. >>

Paul,

The entire gist of my post was that, in today's environment, a clear
understanding of the difference between animal welfare and animal
rights must
be established, or one could inadvertently find oneself in the wrong
camp.  By
today's definition, your personal belief, based on your statement here,
puts
you in the animal WELFARE, camp.  Do not make the mistake of
describing
yourself as an animal rightist.  Ask the animal rightists and they will tell
you they believe in the more radical concepts as I described.  Those
working
to support animal WELFARE, describe themselves exactly as you do. 
There is a
big difference.  These terms were coined to clarify the difference so
those
like yourself  would not be mistaken for the radicals that make up the
animal
RIGHTS movement.  My definitions are not skewed.  My point was two
seperate
terms, two very different positions and definitions.

Kathy Hughes

From:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com"  6-MAY-1998 07:55:27.29
To:	IN%"hbe-request@a3.com"  "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com"  "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	Suzuki and Imprinting

The social masses reach lately again for genetic pilots in human lives.  =

Usually, I share that boat.

There's a slightly paranoid section of my head, however, that wonders abo=
ut
discrepant data.  (I've a long history for seeking the least popular
explanation.  Gosh, a genetics philosopher for 30 years, now wondering if=

social learning might have some redeeming value ... weird!)

1) There are recent announcements of hippocampal growth (new neurons) in
adult marmosets.   Are there any studies suggesting relationship to
environmental enrichment?  In any species?

2) Krech, Rosenzweig, & Diamond (gosh, it's been a long time!) once
correlated neuronal density in young rats with environmental enrichment. =
 =

Were there studies showing these rats to be more capable of doing anythin=
g
besides growing neurons?   Either rat-tasks (such as sniffing, nesting,
exploring, wooing, etc) or human tasks (mazes or operant chambers)?

3) Bunches of kids were highlighted 2 decades ago ... preschoolers with
miniature violins ... even moms playing classical music through gravid
stomachs to stimulate the oncoming child.   "Suzuki" comes to mind but I
could be mistaken.  (Yamaha builds cycles and pianos, their logo - a tuni=
ng
fork!).

4) Early neuronal death ... any evidence that differential experiences va=
ry
the cells that survive and those that don't?

Jim Brody

From:	IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu"  "Sharon Crowell-Davis"  6-MAY-1998 08:09:07.43
To:	IN%"nick@bcrescue.org"  "Nicholas B. Carter"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

Nicholas has a good point.  Do we identify something as "aggression" 
based on motivation or on whether or not the animal is causing harm 
to another animal?

For factual (and explicitly gory)  information on the 
subject, see Borchelt, P.L., R. Lockwood, A.M. Beck and V.L. Voith, 
1983.  Attacks by packs of dogs involving predation on human beings. 
Public Health Reports. 98(1):57-66.

As a clinical behaviorist, when I am working with a dog that bites, I 
call it "aggressive".  From there we can proceed into issues of 
motivation, whether it is natural or abnormal (e.g. psychomotor 
seizures), what the context is, and so forth.  (I concur with Andrew 
that the diagnostic process is too complex for a DSM to be a good 
idea at this time.) 

 It is an unpleasant fact that sometimes dogs 
with a history of chasing down and killing rabbits proceed to cats, 
calves, lambs, joggers, bicyclers and running children.  Sometimes 
with fatal results.  I would not tell the survivors of such 
attacks that the dog that was biting off and consuming chunks of 
their flesh was not being aggressive.

Sharon Crowell-Davis

 Date:          Wed, 06 May 1998 08:58:13 -0400
> From:          "Nicholas B. Carter" <nick@bcrescue.org>
> Subject:       Re: Types of aggression
> To:            applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca

> Hans Erhard wrote:
> >There is one question connected to this topic which I've asked myself 
> >for a long time:  On top of  both lists of the 'types of aggression', 
> >there was 'predatory aggression'.  
> > Is there anybody out there who actually believes that killing of 
> >prey by a predator is aggression? Is a cat killing a mouse aggressive 
> >or hungry, or just 'feeding motivated'?
> 
> Herding dogs, for example, display what one might term "predatory
> aggression" to not only small animals but humans as well. The herding
> instinct is a modified predatory instinct, and in that sense, some
> encounters by a herding dog with small children running across a yard,
> people on bicycles, etc. may be considered predatory aggression. It may not
> be "aggression" if you consider aggression an action with "ill-intent" as
> the dog is only doing what is natural for it to do, however I think most
> other forms of aggression would also fall into a similar "natural" behavior
> pattern like you mention. Is not male/male aggression simply "access to
> female motivated" or territorial aggression simply "resource guarding
> motivated"? In that sense, basically all forms of aggression are natural
> displays of adaptive behaviors - it is simply when they are directed
> towards humans or are disruptive to people's lives that we consider them to
> be "negative".
> 
> 
> Dr. Nicholas B. Carter
> Border Collie Rescue
> 
**********************************************               
Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD                             
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists       
College of Veterinary Medicine                               
University of Georgia                                        
Athens, Georgia 30602
scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu


If a little knowledge is dangerous, 
where is the man who has so much
as to be out of danger?

T.H. Huxley
On Elementary Instruction in Physiology

From:	IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca"  6-MAY-1998 08:21:39.74
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	acute phase proteins

Colleagues,

Has anyone been using acute phase proteins to determine stress in
confinement environments? If so I would be interested in your estimation
of their usefulness or the converse especially in pigs.

P.S. With respect to the aggression categorization questions. I beleive
these categories were set up to describe the underlying motivations for
attacks on humans (i.e. aggression to humans). In some cases these seem
to be motivated by prey catching behaviour especially if the context
involves young children running about and yelling. These cases of course
need to be dealt with in an entirely different manner than for other
motivations for aggression to humans but still belong in this category.
I think it would help if we called this list "categories of aggression
toward humans or other dogs" (i.e. the animals social grouping) rather
than just aggression.

Nora Lewis

From:	IN%"jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp"  "Janice Willard"  6-MAY-1998 08:33:22.20
To:	IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk"  "Hans Erhard"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

At 12:28 PM 5/6/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Dear Mark and others interested in aggression,
>There is one question connected to this topic which I've asked myself 
>for a long time:  On top of  both lists of the 'types of aggression', 
>there was 'predatory aggression'.  
(respectful snip) 
>The two behaviours were totally different.  
>Wouldn't the categorisation schemes benefit if we dropped 
>predatory 'aggression' from the list?
>
>What do you think?

I don't know, but perhaps it depends on your perspective and your definition
of aggression.  I have had sheep mauled and killed by dogs and coyotes
(actually in this circumstance, the coyotes were more clearly predatory
while the dogs encorperated a stronger element of play, thus causing greater
injuries) and from the sheep's persective, this was clearly aggressive!
(The flock is usually terrified for days after an attack).  My difficulty
has always been with convincing well-meaning dog owners that, while their
dog is certianly nice to family and other people, it can still be dangerous
to livestock and should never be allowed to roam unattended where it can
hurt them ("my dog would never hurt anything!" "Well, tell that to the ewe
it just ripped to shreds").    

Recently, my 6 year old son was holding a kitten outside a veterinary office
while several clients were standing around talking, when a big Siberian
Huskey, practically as tall as my son, jumped over and grabbed the kitten
from his hands and would have gulped it down if I had not snatched it back
out of the dog's mouth when it repositioned.  Certianly this was aggressive
from my son's and the kitten's perspective. While I remember telling the
stricken dog owner that her dog was not mean, just showing a natural
behavior, we were lucky that neither my son nor the kitten were seriously
injured.  Certianly that dog was dangerous for any creature below a certian
size.  And an owner should be aware of this potential in some dogs, so that
they can maintain them in a responsible way.

You are right that a different motivational state is at play when an animal
is getting food than, for example, when a dog is biting out of fear or to
assert dominance.  I am hoping that people more knowledgable than me will
further elucidate this.  Cj, you mentioned an ethological approach, could
you please tell us more?  And I would love to hear from some of the
psychologists in the group who could, perhaps, give us some correlations
with human aggression research.  It sounds like there is a lot more to
explore in this issue.

Janice   



***************************************************************************
Janice Willard, DVM MS
Tokyo 194, Machida-shi
Higashi Tamagawa Gakuen
1-33-66
Japan
Phone/FAX (81)427-29-4519
Message FAX (81)427-21-2850
jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp

From:	IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA"  "Jeff Rushen"  6-MAY-1998 08:38:34.17
To:	IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Healthy animal-human animal interaction. -Reply -REPONSE

>>> Kattykorn2 <Kattykorn2@aol.com> 06/05/ 02h37 >>>
The entire gist of my post was that, in today's environment, a
clear understanding of the difference between animal
welfare and animal rights must be established, >>>

The idea that there is a clear distinction between animal
rights and animal welfare is a useful fiction that many of us
employ with profit. Usually, we do so when we try to discuss
animal welfare with someone who normally would become
very defensive if they thought we were talking about animal
rights. The fact that this ploy is effective does not mean that it
is accurate. Much of the problem comes from the vague and
fluid definition of a "right". I suspect many people would
agree with the statement that "animals have the right not to
be tortured for fun". Does this mean that those people are
"animal rightists"? Doesn't the existence of laws against
animal cruelty show that our society does accept that
animals have some rights? Conflicts between groups of
people about animal welfare arise not because one of the
groups is in favour of animal welfare and the other group is
opposed. More often the conflict is about what constitutes
animal welfare. Most farmers would probably see
themselves as "animal welfarists", they just have a different
opinion from animal welfare groups as to what constitutes
good animal welfare (and often a more accurate one). I
suspect that most farmers are also in favour of laws against
animal cruelty, and so in some respects believe animals
have (some) rights. But, self-evidently, they don't agree that
animals have the right not to be eaten (nor does most of the
population).

The different opinions that people have on these issues are
best seen as points scattered along a number of continua,
rather than as falling into two distinct groups. To deal with
these issues, we need to know more about what are the
main continua that differentiate people, rather than
continuing with the rights/welfare distinction.

Jeff Rushen

From:	IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca"  "Jon Watts"  6-MAY-1998 08:47:12.82
To:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be"  "E JORIS"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology"
Subj:	RE: Human-animal ....

On Wed, 6 May 1998, E JORIS wrote:

> It is nice some of you guys have a life in which you never have to make
> difficult choices. Your public is well educated and knows the difference
> between animal welfare and animal rightists.....You have your instincts
> defending you genes and you control your emotions. Are you known under the
> 'groupname' SCIENTISTS?

> ....... there are things to think about, especially you guys discussing
> 'she, he or it' from your nice lab, able to do research because animal
> welfare is trendy.... 

> But maybe I am at the wrong discussion group...let me confess when I apply
> for a job in Africa I never put 'MSc in Applied Animal Behaviour and Animal
> Welfare', I leave the three last words away. 


Well I think you're full of crap. If you don't have anything to contribute
to these discussions maybe you are in the wrong group. I won't lose any
sleep if I don't get to read your ignorant vitriol any more. 

Jon

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Watts                                      (___)            )    ) 
University of Saskatchewan                     |o o|___________/     (
Dept of Herd Medicine                     O     \#/            |     )
and Theriogenology                      |bser|   | Statistical |     (
Western College of Vet. Med.            |vati|   |   analysis  |     ) 
52 Campus Drive                         |ons.|    \___________/|     *&
Saskatoon                               ------     ||         ||    %$#@
S7N 1B4                                /      \    ||         ||    ^*@*~
Canada                                                             &^%%#$@
wattsjon@duke.usask.ca                            "The Holy Cow"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	IN%"sgadbois@is2.dal.ca"  "Simon Gadbois"  6-MAY-1998 09:14:43.15
To:	IN%"pherosynthese@wanadoo.fr", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "applied ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: salivary cortisol in cats

At 7:59 AM -0400 5/6/98, pherosynthese@wanadoo.fr wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>Has any work been done on the dosage of salivary cortisol in cats and
>its relation with stress ?
>
>Thanks for your help.
>
>Yann Tessier DVM

D'apres mes recherches, peu on fait du cortisol salivaire avec des animaux.
Nous l'avons considere avec nos loups mais le cortisol urinaire etait plus
facile a acceder.  Nous avons cependant utiliser la methode avec des
humains (utilisant Coat-a-count de DPC:  facile, rapide).

Simon Gadbois
____________________________________________________

AT DALHOUSIE:
Department of Psychology
Life Sciences Centre
Dalhousie University
Halifax, Nova Scotia
Canada, B3H 4J1

sgadbois@is2.dal.ca
902-494-3603 (lab)
902-494-6585 (fax)


AT ACADIA:
Department of Psychology
Horton Hall
Acadia University
Wolfville, Nova Scotia
Canada, B0P 1X0

Simon.Gadbois@acadiau.ca
902-585-1424 (office:  405 Horton Hall)
902-542-1130

Behavioral (social) endocrinology of the wolf
(aggression and social stress, urinary steroids).
Sequential and temporal analysis of behavioral
sequences in canids (wolves, red foxes & coyotes).

From:	IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk"  "Hans Erhard"  6-MAY-1998 09:36:17.14
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Human-human interaction

> Well I think you're full of crap. If you don't have anything to contribute
> to these discussions maybe you are in the wrong group. I won't lose any
> sleep if I don't get to read your ignorant vitriol any more. 
> 

I would appreciate if people kept this sort of language off the 
network.  Senders of messages should consider that people do not 
always agree with what they write, either.

There was another case recently of a personal attack on this list, 
which was, in my opinion, the result of a misunderstanding.  
Shouldn't we give others the benefit of the doubt?  Usually, 
contributions are not meant to insult anyone.  If you feel insulted, 
why not write a personal message to the person concerned and explain 
how you feel?

Hans

____________________________________
Hans Erhard
Macaulay Land Use Research Institute
Craigiebuckler
Aberdeen AB15 8QH
Tel.:  01224 - 318611
Fax.:  01224 - 311556
email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk

From:	IN%"marie.haskell@bbsrc.ac.uk"  "marie.haskell"  6-MAY-1998 11:04:42.84
To:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Suzuki and Imprinting

J. Brody wrote:>

I'm not sure which 'genetic pilot' you are out there tacking towards, some
there may be something of relevance in the effects of environmental enrichment
literature!

>1) There are recent announcements of hippocampal growth (new neurons) in
>adult marmosets.   Are there any studies suggesting relationship to
>environmental enrichment?  In any species?

I'm not sure this counts as 'classical' environmental enrichment, but work by
Nicky Clayton and coworkers shows that certain species of food-storing birds
have increased hippocampal neurogenesis corresponding to times of the year when
food storing occurs. (Doesn't say what happens when food-retrieval time comes
around.)
 
>2) Krech, Rosenzweig, & Diamond (gosh, it's been a long time!) once
>correlated neuronal density in young rats with environmental enrichment.  
>Were there studies showing these rats to be more capable of doing anything
>besides growing neurons?   Either rat-tasks (such as sniffing, nesting,
>exploring, wooing, etc) or human tasks (mazes or operant chambers)?

Although they did not look at brain structure, various people have found that
rats exposed to impoverished environments have a reduced ability to show
complex behaviours (Renner and Rosenzweig (there he is again!); others found
that they were less able to employ diverse strategies in solving problems and
were less likely to give up previously successful strategies when they became
unsuccessful (Morgan et al, Einon et al.)
However, Temple Grandin et al. found that pigs reared in simple environments
had greater dendritic branching and dendritic length than those reared in
complex environments, which was contrary to what they expected to find.  We did
some work with pigs in enriched and unenriched environments, and took the
brains when the pigs were (humanely) killed at the end of the trial, with the
idea of looking at the brains. However, I suspect they are still languishing in
Androaldo Zanella's freezer somewhere! (Sorry Androaldo!)

Other evidence suggests that brains are quite plastic, or at least have some
flexibility. Certain types of environment seem to promote certain types of
learning. Birds in flocks in which they come across large amounts of food all
at once (spilled grain in this case) seem to be very good at learning to copy
one another; better than conspecifics who have territories centred around food.
Fish in stable environments are better at using landmarks to find their way
around. As far as gene control of this: who knows? It seems like a evolutionary
'sensible' thing to have a brain that adapts, certain types of cell growth
promoted, perhaps in preference to other types, but the stuff just described
seems not to be the result of genetic determination of the capabilities of a
particular species, but evidencethat the environment, physical and social,
changes things.

This may not answer the question at all, Jim, but may provide some peripheral
interesting information! 

Marie Haskell
Roslin Institute (Edinburgh)

From:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj"  6-MAY-1998 11:35:05.92
To:	IN%"jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp"  "Janice Willard", IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk"  "Hans Erhard"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

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It is difficult to understand the motivations for some behaviours since =
we are rarely conversant with the signals, body language and other clues =
that may help us to understand that behaviour.  This is further =
complicated by the fact that our perception of the context of a signal =
or behaviour may be utterly irrelevant to the animal's perception of the =
situation.  Let me offer an example:  You are in scuba gear and ten =
meters below the surface, suddenly a large tiger shark appears and it's =
approaching very quickly.  You know exactly what is going to happen in =
the next few moments and there's nothing you can do about it, this is =
the 'human' perspective.  An objective student of animal behaviour would =
view this interaction as one example of a behavior exhibited by the =
shark;  the object of the shark's attention would not think in those =
terms.  One can infer very little about the origins of the shark's =
behaviour by studying that singular event except to think in somewhat =
emotional (and human) terms of what happened. =20

The shark's motivation is of some interest here since "the kinds of =
things sharks do" is a superficial assemblage of speculations on what, =
why and how, a checklist of observed interactions to be categorized by =
arbitrary standards.
One who has observed shark behaviour for some period of time is in a =
position to be more perceptive about the shark's response to the diver.  =
The first thing the ethologist would evaluate would be the shark's body =
language: if the shark made the approach in a direct accelerating attack =
the shark is hungry and perceives the diver as food; if the shark =
approaches in a
steady attack and the shark's body is arched (head and tail down, dorsal =
fin high) and the pectoral fins are pointed downward the attack is =
aggressive because the body posture is a territorial display. =20

The shark would make the territorial attack on another shark of the same =
size but would not display the feeding attack to that shark.  The shark =
might also make a sinuous moderate speed approach to another shark of =
the same size and bite the other shark so that it bleeds and displays =
some avoidance.  This attack isn't aggressive, it isn't feeding, but it =
is a sexual (courtship) display, if the recipient of the bite circles =
the attacking shark and bites it in the same way it is a mutual =
courtship display by the sharks.

You have observed three behaviours, an attack followed by a bite, you =
have also observed four kinds of interaction: the attacks on the diver =
were motivated by hunger (not asggressive) and mistaken identity (the =
aggressive territorial behaviour); the attacks on the other shark were =
motivated by territorial (aggressive) and sexual (non-aggressive)causal =
factors.  Since sharks have a limited set of manipulative tools (jaws =
with teeth for biting, fins for swimming and steering) the bite is a =
probable mode for conducting a wide array of physical contacts.  The =
field of observation is limited to a single behaviour, the approach and =
bite.  There were three kinds of approach and bite: feeding, territorial =
aggression and sexual. =20
There were four kinds of motivation: hunger, mistaken identity, =
aggression and sex.=20

Now you have a single act that has multiple causes and an array of =
motivations, is it reasonable to call all of these bites aggressive ?  =
Is it reasonable to assume that a bite is a bite and nothing more?   Is =
this the only kind of aggressive behaviour displayed by sharks ?  The =
three answers are no.  The potential danger of combining acts and =
motivations into a single=20
column heading because of the unwarranted implicit assumption that bite =
=3D aggression is obvious.  The list becomes a simple model that tends =
to discourage further study because it leaves only a set of conclusions =
and offers no questions worth answering.  Understanding must be based on =
observations and thoughts; conceptual fitting of predictive combinations =
isn't possible without extensive study of the animals themselves.  =
Behaviors can be incredibly complex and they cannot be categorized until =
we have a grasp of how animals think and, equally important, how they =
perceive their environment.=20
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz=20

>You are right that a different motivational state is at play when an =
animal
>is getting food than, for example, when a dog is biting out of fear or =
to
>assert dominance.  I am hoping that people more knowledgable than me =
will
>further elucidate this.  Cj, you mentioned an ethological approach, =
could
>you please tell us more?=20

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
My rant on understanding behaviours (see above) is perhaps an index of =
the way I think about all kinds of behaviours.
With respect to dogs I could suggest a starting hint (since I don't have =
the time to write the whole chapter at the moment).
A dog will bite in play, or from fear, when feeding and when hunting.  =
Dogs will bite because of aggression, or as a response to interference =
or as a reflex.  Dogs do not bite to assert dominance.  In dogs =
aggression and the dominance are unrelated.

    is that sufficiently confusing ?        Cj
___________________________________________________________________
Q:   Did you know that most of our problems are caused by ignorance or =
indifference?
A:   No, I didn't know that.  Now go away.   I have no interest in your =
opinions.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>It is difficult to understand the motivations for some behaviours =
since we=20
are rarely conversant with the signals, body language and other clues =
that may=20
help us to understand that behaviour.&nbsp; This is further complicated =
by the=20
fact that our perception of the context of a signal or behaviour may be =
utterly=20
irrelevant to the animal's perception of the situation.&nbsp; Let me =
offer an=20
example:&nbsp; You are in scuba gear and ten meters below the surface, =
suddenly=20
a large tiger shark appears and it's approaching very quickly.&nbsp; You =
know=20
exactly what is going to happen in the next few moments and there's =
nothing you=20
can do about it, this is the 'human' perspective.&nbsp; An objective =
student of=20
animal behaviour would view this interaction as one example of a =
behavior=20
exhibited by the shark;&nbsp; the object of the shark's attention would =
not=20
think in those terms.&nbsp; One can infer very little about the origins =
of the=20
shark's behaviour by studying that singular event except to think in =
somewhat=20
emotional (and human) terms of what happened.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The shark's motivation is of some interest here since &quot;the =
kinds of=20
things sharks do&quot; is a superficial assemblage of speculations on =
what, why=20
and how, a checklist of observed interactions to be categorized by =
arbitrary=20
standards.</DIV>
<DIV>One who has observed shark behaviour for some period of time is in =
a=20
position to be more perceptive about the shark's response to the =
diver.&nbsp;=20
The first thing the ethologist would evaluate would be the shark's body=20
language: if the shark made the approach in a direct accelerating attack =
the=20
shark is hungry and perceives the diver as food; if the shark approaches =
in=20
a</DIV>
<DIV>steady attack and the shark's body is arched (head and tail down, =
dorsal=20
fin high) and the pectoral fins are pointed downward the attack is =
aggressive=20
because the body posture is a territorial display.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The shark would make the territorial attack on another shark of the =
same=20
size but would not display the feeding attack to that shark.&nbsp; The =
shark=20
might also make a sinuous moderate speed approach to another shark of =
the same=20
size and bite the other shark so that it bleeds and displays some=20
avoidance.&nbsp; This attack isn't aggressive, it isn't feeding, but it =
is a=20
sexual (courtship) display, if the recipient of the bite circles the =
attacking=20
shark and bites it in the same way it is a mutual courtship display by =
the=20
sharks.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>You have observed three behaviours, an attack followed by a bite, =
you have=20
also observed four kinds of interaction: the attacks on the diver were =
motivated=20
by hunger (not asggressive) and mistaken identity (the aggressive =
territorial=20
behaviour); the attacks on the other shark were motivated by territorial =

(aggressive) and sexual (non-aggressive)causal factors.&nbsp; Since =
sharks have=20
a limited set of manipulative tools (jaws with teeth for biting, fins =
for=20
swimming and steering) the bite is a probable mode for conducting a wide =
array=20
of physical contacts.&nbsp; The field of observation is limited to a =
single=20
behaviour, the approach and bite.&nbsp; There were three kinds of =
approach and=20
bite: feeding, territorial aggression and sexual.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>There were four kinds of motivation: hunger, mistaken identity, =
aggression=20
and sex.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Now you have a single act that has multiple causes and an array of=20
motivations, is it reasonable to call all of these bites aggressive =
?&nbsp; Is=20
it reasonable to assume that a bite is a bite and nothing =
more?&nbsp;&nbsp; Is=20
this the only kind of aggressive behaviour displayed by sharks ?&nbsp; =
The three=20
answers are no.&nbsp; The potential danger of combining acts and =
motivations=20
into a single&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>column heading because of the unwarranted implicit assumption that =
bite =3D=20
aggression is obvious.&nbsp; The list becomes a simple model that tends =
to=20
discourage further study because it leaves only a set of conclusions and =
offers=20
no questions worth answering.&nbsp; Understanding must be based on =
observations=20
and thoughts; conceptual fitting of predictive combinations isn't =
possible=20
without extensive study of the animals themselves.&nbsp; Behaviors can =
be=20
incredibly complex and they cannot be categorized until we have a grasp =
of how=20
animals think and, equally important, how they perceive their =
environment.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&nbs=
p;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>&gt;You are right that a different motivational state is at =
play when=20
an animal<BR>&gt;is getting food than, for example, when a dog is biting =
out of=20
fear or to<BR>&gt;assert dominance.&nbsp; I am hoping that people more=20
knowledgable than me will<BR>&gt;further elucidate this.&nbsp; Cj, you =
mentioned=20
an ethological approach, could<BR>&gt;you please tell us =
more?&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#00ffff">zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz</FON=
T></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #00ffff"></FONT><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #00ffff">My rant on understanding behaviours =
(see=20
above) is perhaps an index of the way I think about all kinds of=20
behaviours.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #00ffff"></FONT><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #00ffff">With respect to dogs I could suggest =
a=20
starting hint (since I don't have the time to write the whole chapter at =
the=20
moment).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #00ffff"></FONT><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #00ffff">A dog will bite in play, or from =
fear, when=20
feeding and when hunting.&nbsp; Dogs will bite because of aggression, or =
as a=20
response to interference or as a reflex.&nbsp; Dogs do <U><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #00ffff">not</U> </FONT>bite to assert =
dominance.&nbsp;=20
In dogs aggression and the dominance are unrelated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #00ffff"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #00ffff">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is =
that=20
sufficiently confusing ?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Cj</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D2>________________________________________________________________=
___</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #00ffff">Q:&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</FONT><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #00ffff">Did you know that most of our =
problems are=20
caused by ignorance or indifference?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #00ffff">A:&nbsp;&nbsp; No, I =
didn't know=20
that.&nbsp; Now go away.&nbsp;&nbsp; I have no interest in your=20
opinions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#00ffff">----------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_nf8lzypsNbTNe4XTQwr4Jg)--

From:	IN%"albertsen_d@alph.swosu.edu"  "DORIT ALBERTSEN"  6-MAY-1998 12:24:12.93
To:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: human-animal relations

At 12:36 AM 5/6/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: DORIT ALBERTSEN <albertsen_d@alph.swosu.edu>
>
>
>>...here we go again! ...(snip) But what an unorganized discussion. It is
>driven by emotion ( our own
>>instincts ) and cultural imprintment as well as ethical thougts.  Just
>curious: Would You folks save Your biological child before Your adopted
>child, also?  Caring for the own bloodline primarily seems to be the picture
>of ones
>>love to oneself. Instinct or culture? Probably both, but certainly not
>ethic. What do you think ?
>>Dorit Albertsen
>
>zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
>It is quite obvious that most cultural and survival behaviours in the animal
>species on this planet are based on the survival of genetic lineages.  Or,
>as Dawkins would have it, selfish genes.  Analyses of available ethological
>data on most species provides a clear mathematical basis for these
>assumptions and it applies to humans (especially to humans).  This genetic
>survival tactic has served quit well in the recent history of the planet but
>human activities have changed the equations.
>Man must learn, and very quickly, that selfish genes will not survive at all
>unless we understand that we have a biological vested interest in every
>living species on thios planet.  Since we have reached the current stage of
>ecological dominance
>we are, either consciously or unconsciously,  going to determine the
>parameters for the survival of all life on this planet.
>Preservation of my own genetic line requires that I promote the survival of
>species diversity on the entire planet since it is improbable that my
>lineage will survive if the planet winds up covered with starving humans,
>lots of rats and an enormous biomass of insects and bacteria.
>It is quite obvious that we are in another world wide species die-off, this
>time it isn't a comet but our own activities.  We cannot avoid it but we
>might manage to reduce the impact on some of our own genetic combinations.
>Conservation isn't a
>current fad, it's the absolutely selfish realization that if we don't
>preserve as much biodiversity as possible we are all on the way to becoming
>part of the fossil record.  Thus the only salvation for humanity is
>self-interest, we have to preserve all
>to survive ourselves.  The hard part is convincing other people of the need
>to be selfish about our ecosystem before it's too late for even the toughest
>few of our species.
>Cj
>
>
>
BRAVO! (what do You mean "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"?)
I agree strongly with all that. But shouldn't we distinguish between
shortsighted and farsighted self-interest? Not everyone who cares for his
own offspring  (shortsighted self-interest) is aware of the necessity of
having to save the planet (farsighted self-interest). As You said,>> the
hard part is convincing other people of the need to be selfish about our
ecosystem before it's too late for even the toughest few of our species<<.  
	Well, what You discribe here is basicly what I mean when using the term
"ethics": The ability and willingness to think in wider circles, than the
own yardfence.
	But please don't tell me what my motivation is. I would badly fancy to see
a human-free world. Even if only as an attempt to apollogize for the chaos
we created. Or maybe just to observe what that would be like. Trouble is,
I'm human, so I wouldn't see it.     Dorrit
Dorit Albertsen
PO Box 21
Colony, OK 73021
Usa



From:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be"  "E JORIS"  6-MAY-1998 13:16:16.66
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	Sorry;

I did not want to be rude, and I am maybe also a scientist even if I do not
sound like one. I just wanted you to wake up maybe... Anyway answers can be
saved as I am disappointed and I unsubscribed.
Eva.


From:	IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com"  "Kattykorn2"  6-MAY-1998 13:45:57.93
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

In a message dated 98-05-06 08:47:05 EDT, you write:

<< From the point of view of someone trying to "sell" rescue dogs to the
 public I would be delighted if there was a clear message to potential dog
 owners/adopters from ethologists that predation is NOT anything to do with
 aggression. It is often very hard to get over to otherwise reasonable
 people that a predatory, rabbit-chasing dog may not have the slightest
 tendency to be other than friendly and gentle with people and other dogs. 
  >>
Some comments from another one trying to "sell" potential good dog owners on
rescue dogs......of a very little known and unusual breed....................

The Thai Ridgeback is used by the natives to hunt Asian wild boar.  Packs of 4
to 6 dogs are used to track the boar and eventually hold him at bay.  The
hunter remains hidden from the view of the boar for the kill.  If the hunter
steps in view of the boar, the dogs will immediately attack the boar.  Because
such an attack almost invariably results in the death of one or more good
hunting dogs, the hunters are always very careful to find a way to shoot the
boar from a hidden position.  

Comments on this behavior from those who know more than I would be
interesting.

Kathy Hughes
National Rescue Chairman
Thai Ridgeback Club of the United States
Hawkflight Kennels

From:	IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com"  "Kattykorn2"  6-MAY-1998 14:06:59.15
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Healthy animal-human animal interaction. -Reply -Reply

In a message dated 98-05-06 09:36:49 EDT, you write:

<< Kathy,
      I think you have taken the views of some people who believe
 themselves to be animal rightists (i.e. the most radical and rabid) and
 portrayed them as typical of believers in animal rights.  This is untrue and
 unfair.  Many ARs are thoughtful, compassionate, realistic people.  Using
 your approach, I would say that people who are animal welfarists are
 only concerned with the treatment of cats, dogs and other "pets."  What
 happens in factory farms, slaughterhouses, or research laboratories
 does not interest them. >>

Once more, in an attempt to make this clear....

I never said anything to the effect that the radicals were "typical".  Quite
the contrary, those such as yourself (and myself) are by far the majority.
Again, my point was...in today's environment, much effort has gone into
clearly defining the difference, so that people such as you and me would not
be confused with the radicals.  Animal welfarists ARE concerned with humane
treatment of ALL animals, be they domestic or wild.  

Animal rightists oppose all hunting and fishing as inhumane and a violation of
the animals' "rights".  Many hunters are active animal welfarists who
understand the positive role that hunting can play in good wildlife
management.  But they support humane hunting practices for both the wild
animals and the domestic dogs used in hunting sports.  I personally know a dog
trainer who is an avid outdoorsman and loves deer more than dogs.  He goes
ballistic over inexperienced hunters that can not make clean kills.  His
personal philosophy leads him to pass up the prime buck or doe for a lesser
animal when hunting, because he believes the fittest should remain to
reproduce.  He does not believe in trophy hunting.  He believes that if you
don't intend to eat it, you have no business killing it. He also goes
ballistic over any incident of animal neglect or abuse, even if the victim is
a cow.  But if you called him an "Animal Rightist" he would be very upset,
because he understands the difference, and can't abide the radicals.  He will
tell you he is an "Animal Welfarist"

In todays environment, there is a big difference between the connotation of
the two.  My only original point.

Kathy Hughes


From:	IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com"  "Kattykorn2"  6-MAY-1998 14:17:49.02
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

In a message dated 98-05-06 10:18:22 EDT, you write:

<<  It is an unpleasant fact that sometimes dogs 
 with a history of chasing down and killing rabbits proceed to cats, 
 calves, lambs, joggers, bicyclers and running children.  Sometimes 
 with fatal results.  I would not tell the survivors of such 
 attacks that the dog that was biting off and consuming chunks of 
 their flesh was not being aggressive.
 
 Sharon Crowell-Davis >>

I can't think of any dog I have ever known that would NOT chase a running
rabbit.  However, an amazingly small percentage of the canine population
graduate to human attacks.  Chasing often does not end in attack.  My
observation is many chase for the love of the chase.  Many dogs will run
livestock ragged, but never attack.  Many dogs will kill small game and never
attack large game (cows and people).  

I would never want to infer that a dog that chased and killed a cat is going
to graduate to chasing and killing people.

Kathy Hughes

From:	IN%"rstr6415@uriacc.uri.edu"  6-MAY-1998 14:52:02.60
To:	IN%"J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Mixing adult cats/kittens

Re your post about mixing new kittens - one thing that has worked is to put
the kittens in a room with a door that the adult cat can see through, or
with a "baby" gate so the adult can see them but they can't get to him.
This way the adult can get used to the kittens, their smells, their sounds,
etc.  without the kittens jumping on him.  Sometimes just giving them time
is the best method.  You could also try giving your adult his favorite treat
every time you introduce the kittens to him.  Association with a pleasurable
experience can help with acceptance of novel situations.

Best of luck.

Ruth Strain

At 12:01 PM 5/5/98 +0000, J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk wrote:
>Has anyone any tips on introducing an unrelated adult male cat
>("Stanley")
>to kittens.   Stanley is 4 years old and has been used to living with
>other
>cats in the past.  The kittens have just been separated from their
>mother
>and are 7 weeks old.  The kittens, as would be expected, are fine about
>Stanley, but Stanley appears to be frightened of the kittens, shown by
>avoidance and lots of hissing.  We're giving Stanley lots of attention,
>and even tried a tip in a book, which suggested putting pilchard juice
>on
>the kittens, so as to make them all smell the same and induce grooming
>by
>the adult.  This didn't make any difference.  Does anyone know how best
>to deal with this situation, other than simply giving the animal's time.
>Julie
>
>


From:	IN%"KAKerby@aol.com"  "KAKerby"  6-MAY-1998 18:16:17.91
To:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Human-animal ....

I've read your entries with great interest.  I've never been to Africa, but I
share your feeling that seeing a dying human, a dying village, or an dying
culture makes us begin to question those tidy beliefs we gathered while in our
ivory towers.    That doesn't make us less worthy as scientists, it just makes
us more compassionate human beings.  I also believe that callousness towards
ANY form of life is to be avoided, because we ALL have a place here, and a
role to play, in making the world a better place.  That goes for people, cows,
roaches and bacteria.  If you feel compelled to unsubscribe, then do as you
must, be please reconsider.  Your opinions are valid, and your observations
are important. 

My personal OPINION is that if humanity is to survive in a biologically
healthy world, we must find ways for people to live in conjunction w/ the
biological, chemical and physical life systems this planet already has.  And
for those of you that think I'm in a dreamland, I've been gathering info on
people, villages and cultures  ALREADY making this happen around the world,
and I hope to write my PhD on the same.   Zoos, wildlife preserves, the ESA
and all the rest are means to an end, but they're only partial solutions.  We
must find ways for the basic farmer, the basic businessperson, the basic
mother to accomplish their day-to-day goals and make a living while protecting
our world AT THE SAME TIME.

OK, enough from my lecture stand.  Eva, please don't unsubscribe.  At least
some of us would like to know how the world looks from your perspective.
Kathryn

From:	IN%"jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp"  "Janice Willard"  6-MAY-1998 18:37:43.97
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be"
Subj:	cybermanners

Maybe this is a bit off the subject, for which I apologize, but regarding
cyber-manners and the recent exchange between Eva, Jon and Erhart:  I for
one, do appreciate a degree of civility in discussion groups.  I have found
the advice in this book very useful. Here is an example:

"Those are real people out there.

Social scientists tell us that we tend to adjust our actions based on the
responses of people around us.  When you communicate electronically, it is
much harder to assess the responses of other people.  It's easy to forget
that you are communicating with a real person-- a person that has feelings
very much like your own, feelings that can be hurt.  Thus people tend to
feel free to say things on the Net that they would never say to a person
face to face.

For this reason, the Golden Rule is every bit a important in Cyberspace as
it is in the real world:

Treat others the way you would like to be treated.

Before you push the Send button, ask yourself two questions:

* Would I say this if the person were sitting in front of me?
* How would I feel if I or someone I cared for, received this message?

Your use of the Net will reflect who you are."

From The Cyberethics Reader
by Nancy E. Willard 
1997 McGraw-Hill


Janice

(The book is worthwhile reading, particulary for new net users.   If you
notice the name similarity, the author is related to me.)


***************************************************************************
Janice Willard, DVM MS
Tokyo 194, Machida-shi
Higashi Tamagawa Gakuen
1-33-66
Japan
Phone/FAX (81)427-29-4519
Message FAX (81)427-21-2850
jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp

From:	IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com"  "Howl Bloom"  6-MAY-1998 21:52:16.38
To:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Suzuki and Imprinting

on 5/6/98 Jim Brody writes:

 4) Early neuronal death ... any evidence that differential experiences vary
 the cells that survive and those that don't?  YES, LOTS.  AGAIN, MOST OF IT
COMES FROM STUDIES OF THE EFFECTS OF STRESS ON THE HIPPOCAMPUS.  SINCE THE
HIPPOCAMPUS HANDLES MEMORY AND MANY OTHER PERCEPTUAL TASKS, THIS LEADS TO
PERCEPTUAL SHUTDOWN, AS WOULD BE PREDICTED BY (SORRY) THE COMPLEX ADAPTIVE
SYSTEM THEORY OF GROUP BEHAVIOR.  COMPLEX ADAPTIVE SYSTEM THEORY SAYS THOSE
WHO LOSE CONTROL ARE DYSFUNCTIONAL NODES IN THE LARGER NEURAL NET AND ARE SHUT
DOWN BUT RETAINED IN CASE THEY ALTERNATIVES THEY OFFER SHOULD PROVE USEFUL
WHEN CIRCUMSTANCES CHANGE.  UNLESS RESOURCES SHRINK AND THE COMMUNITY IS
SERIOUSLY ENDANGERED.  IN THAT CASE THESE INDIVIDUALS MAY WELL BE DISCARDED.
IN OTHER WORDS, THEY'D BE SHUNNED FURTHER, DEPRIVED OF OTHER RESOURCES BESIDES
LOVE AND ATTENTION, AND WOULD THUS HAVE THEIR SELF-DESTRUCT MECHANISMS
TRIGGERED.  THESE ENDOGENOUS APOPTOTIC DEVICES HAVE BEEN DOCUMENTED IN THE
WORKS BELOW.  OR SEE THE WORKS OF MIKE WALLER. Howard
-------------------------
Howard Bloom. The Lucifer Principle: a scientific expedition into
the forces of history. New York: Atlantic Monthly Press, 1995.

Howard Bloom. "Group Selection and the Social Sciences: a New
Evolutionary Synthesis."  In Research in Biopolitics, vol. 6. Greenwich, CT:
JAI Press Inc., in publication.
----------
Howard Bloom
(founder: International Paleopsychology Project; member: New York Academy of
Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, American
Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and
Evolution Society, European Sociobiological Society; board member: Epic of
Evolution Society)

705 President Street
Brooklyn, NY 11215

phone 718 622 2278
fax 718 398 2551
e-mail howard@paleopsych.org
for two chapters from 
The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of
History,
see www.bookworld.com/lucifer



From:	IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu"  "Kale H. McE. Kevan"  6-MAY-1998 22:20:47.22
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Healthy animal-human animal interaction. -Reply -REPONSE

On Wed, 6 May 1998, Jeff Rushen wrote:

> The idea that there is a clear distinction between animal
> rights and animal welfare is a useful fiction that many of us
> employ with profit. 

There's no -practical- distinction, but there certainly is a clear one. 
"Animal rights" means that animals have rights. Only beings with the
strange and mystical property of personhood (or at least agency) can have
rights. I am quite convinced that my cat is an agent to just about the
same degree that I am, but most people seem to feel otherwise. If you
believe that animals have rights, you must also believe that they are
agents, and have free will. Further, rights do not come from God, they
come from being a member of a society. Most people do not wish to admit
cows into human society. "Animal rights" is upsetting to people because it
attaches a whole bunch of properties formerly reserved for humans onto
animals: "rights", "agency", "personhood", "citizenship," etc.

> I suspect many people would
> agree with the statement that "animals have the right not to
> be tortured for fun". Does this mean that those people are
> "animal rightists"? 

It would mean that if most people said what they meant, but they don't.
These hypothetical people probably don't agree with the statement,
"animals have the right not to be tortured for fun," but rather with the
statement, "We, as human beings, have the responsibility not to allow
animals to be tortured for fun."

> Doesn't the existence of laws against
> animal cruelty show that our society does accept that
> animals have some rights? 

Nope. It shows that our society accepts that humans have resposibilities
to animals. I think that's a better way to talk about it, anyway. Humans
feel threatened when you ascribe human characteristics to animals and make
the poor things share their superior-being pedestal. If you talk about
human responsibility instead of animal rights you can make them feel all
warm and fuzzy and morally superior. The animals (who probably -are-
agents and probably -don't- want to be members of human society anyway) 
will benefit just the same, but the 'rights' and 'welfare' distinction is
a real one. 



From:	IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com"  6-MAY-1998 23:32:22.58
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

Dear List Members:

I agree that predatory behavior is best placed under some category other
than aggression. Several considerations support this exclusion. Predatory behavior 
appears to belong to a distinct neurobiological system operating independently of 
agonistic motivations. As has been well established in the laboratory (especially 
intracranial stimulation studies), predatory behavior or "quiet attack" occurs in the 
absence of concurrent sympathetic arousal associated with episodes of affective attack. 
In support of a neural differentiation of substrates mediating affective aggression and
predation, it has been reported, for example, that norepinephrine differentially 
inhibits predation (quiet attack), while facilitating affective attack (Siegel and 
Edinger, 1981). These findings (and many others like them) support the hypothesis that 
predation and aggression are mediated by different neural systems.
 
These observations are not intended to imply that predatory behavior is not
dangerous, nor to deny that a considerable overlap between predatory behavior and 
affectiveaggression may exist in the dog. Over the course of the dog's domestication 
these functional systems may have undergone significant alteration, perhaps producing
"abnormal" distortions in their respective functioning. Some forms of "predation" may
be motivated by more than simple hunger and, perhaps, expressed through the mediation of 
other circuitry besides non-affective neural circuitry. "Predatory" motivations have 
been implicated in several cases involving vicious maulings and deaths to humans by dogs 
(Borchelt et al., 1983).  In one of these cases, a large pack of 8 dogs, with a known 
history of "predatory" behavior, attacked and killed a 14-year-old boy. Reportedly, the 
pack had been observed earlier attacking a deer which they had brought down but failed 
to successfully kill. This incident occurred approximately 1 hour prior to the attack on
the boy. In another incident, a pack of dogs attacked an 11-year-boy who survived
severe injuries. The child reported hearing dogs "baying, as if chasing something"
approximately 15 minutes before the attack. Winkler (1977) reviewed the case
histories of 11 fatal dog attacks from 1974-1975 citing "threatening behavior or
territorial invasion" as the most common causation without ever mentioning the
possible role of predation or a history of predatory behavior in the dogs involved.
Although not mentioned specifically, several of the cases he outlines are not entirely
inconsistent with a predatory interpretation, however. Incidentally, he found that of
the 9 cases where the sex of the dog was known, males accounted for 7 of the attacks, 1
by a female, and one by a male and female pair, suggesting that male dogs may
represent a significantly greater risk for the delivery of a fatal attack. 

Someone mentioned that chasing and killing of cats was a form of predatory behavior. I
am not at all confident that such forms of interspecific aggression as chasing and
killing of cats (or humans for that matter) should be automatically linked with a
predatory motivation, only because the sequences of behavior in question are
topographically similar to one another. While intraspecific aggression is usually
ritualized, interspecific attacks are often intended to do damage, e.g., the habit of 
some dogs to attack and kill cats. This pattern of aggression is probably not driven by
predatory motivations, since (for one thing) the cat is rarely eaten by his attacker.
Also, while "chunks" of flesh have been torn from humans killed by feral or
semi-feral dogs, the dogs reported in these studies did not eat the victim as would be
the custom of a predator motivated by hunger and quiet attack. Should such attacks be 
described as "predatory," even though they fail to result in ingestion (perhaps implying 
some degree of sympathetic arousal inhibiting appetite), just because a chase or hunt 
preceded the incident? 

References 

Borchelt PL, Lockwood R, Beck AM, and Voith VL (1983). Attacks by packs of dogs
involving predation on human beings. Pub Health Rep, 98::57-66. 

Siegel A, Edinger H (1981). Neural control of aggression and rage behavior. In PJ
Morgane and J Panksepp (Eds) Handbook of the Hypothalamus (Vol 3, Part B):
Behavioral Studies of the Hypothalamus. New York, NY: Marcel Dekker, Inc. 

Winkler WG (1977). Human deaths induced by dog bites, United States, 1974-75. Pub
Health Rep, 92:425-429. 


Steve Lindsay 
Canine Behavioral Services 
12 West Willow Grove Avenue, #188 
Philadelphia, PA 19118 

Ph&FAX (215)248-0808 

E-mail: slindsay@ix.netcom 


When a dog runs at you, whistle for him. 

--Thoreau, Journal, June 26, 1840

From:	IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us"  "Paul Carella"  7-MAY-1998 07:25:51.18
To:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Sorry; -Reply

Eva,
     Do not unsubscribe based on the inappropriate personal attack by Jon
Watts (?).  Your posting stimulated some interesting discussion.

Paul Carella

>>> E JORIS <eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be> 05/06/98 03:18pm >>>
I did not want to be rude, and I am maybe also a scientist even if I do not
sound like one. I just wanted you to wake up maybe... Anyway answers
can be
saved as I am disappointed and I unsubscribed.
Eva.



From:	IN%"rondog@btinternet.com"  "Jonathan Bowen"  7-MAY-1998 07:57:44.79
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	cybermanners

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_5s0H7XvmclAww7NphZ1NCw)
Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Janice,

            thanks for your posting. I think the guidelines you quote =
are timely and intelligent.
I don't understand why there has been a recent trend toward personal =
attacks in this group.

I would recommend that members of applied ethology network take a look =
at a random sample of newsgroups to see where this sort of behaviour can =
end up.
I have been to several which looked like they might be interesting but =
had degenerated into a forum for spiteful vendettas.

The worst thing that anyone can do to a newsgroup is make the people who =
write in to it become overly self-conscious.

Soon the only people who feel confident enough to make postings are the =
nutters.


Jon

--Boundary_(ID_5s0H7XvmclAww7NphZ1NCw)
Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dear Janice,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; thanks=20
for your posting. I think the guidelines you quote are timely and=20
intelligent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I don't understand why there has =
been a recent=20
trend toward personal attacks in this group.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I would recommend that members of =
applied=20
ethology network take a look at a random sample of newsgroups to see =
where this=20
sort of behaviour can end up.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have been to several which looked like they might =
be=20
interesting but had degenerated into a forum for spiteful=20
vendettas.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The worst thing that anyone can do to a newsgroup is =
make the=20
people who write in to it become overly self-conscious.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Soon the only people who feel confident enough to =
make=20
postings are the nutters.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jon</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_5s0H7XvmclAww7NphZ1NCw)--

From:	IN%"jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp"  "Janice Willard"  7-MAY-1998 08:36:41.52
To:	IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

At 12:40 AM 5/7/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear List Members:
>
>I agree that predatory behavior is best placed under some category other
>than aggression. Several considerations support this exclusion. Predatory
behavior 
>appears to belong to a distinct neurobiological system operating
independently of 
>agonistic motivations. (respectful snip) Should such attacks be 
>described as "predatory," even though they fail to result in ingestion
(perhaps implying 
>some degree of sympathetic arousal inhibiting appetite), just because a
chase or hunt 
>preceded the incident? 
>

Steve,

I think you brought out some important points here, and this mirrors what I
have observed of the differences between coyote and dog attacks on my sheep
flock.  The coyotes use a quiet stalk, short run, and a quick kill, usually
by grabbing the throat.  They then consume everything except the rumen
contents, often coming back to the same carcass on subsequent days.  The
dogs seem to have a form of play as the primary motivation.  They are
excited, they nip and bark, they maul one sheep until it can't run anymore
and then take off after another one  (this is why shepherds dread dog
attacks more than coyotes).  They look like they are having a great deal of
fun.  While these attacks involve a prey species--something which really
can't fight back-- I'm not sure that killing for consumption is the primary
goal in most of these attacks.

I think that what we have been reading in this discussion demonstrates is
that an intention-driven defination differs from a consequences-driven
defination.  Your classification system would only include agonistic
behavior as being aggression, while Dr. Crowell-Davis uses the "if it walks
like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck--if a dog is
using its teeth and someone gets hurt, then we'll call this aggression-
approach.  I suspect that we won't reach a consensus about this unless we
can aggree on our definition of aggression.

       


***************************************************************************
Janice Willard, DVM MS
Tokyo 194, Machida-shi
Higashi Tamagawa Gakuen
1-33-66
Japan
Phone/FAX (81)427-29-4519
Message FAX (81)427-21-2850
jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp

From:	IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca"  "Jon Watts"  7-MAY-1998 09:32:21.28
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be"
Subj:	RE: cybermanners

Dear all,

I stand by my recent comment addressed to Eva. This is exactly what I
would have said face to face, had Eva been present, because I felt that
Eva's remarks were sarcastic, demeaning and dismissive. But perhaps they
were not intended to be as caustic as they appeared to me. 

However, Hans Erhard is quite correct. I should have addressed my feelings
exclusively to Eva and not to the rest of you. For that I do apologise.

I am also (believe it or not) capable of expressing myself in words of
more than four letters. But sometimes I think the bluntest form of
expression can be the truest. (perhaps I should restrict such comments to
personal conversations)

So Eva, now that the damage is done, with the greatest respect for your
opinions and values, I still say you're full of it. But if I ever meet
you, I'd be glad to buy you a beer and insult you, face to face;-)

Jon

P.S. Eva, please consider staying with the list. It is certainly not
proper for me to tell people they shouldn't be here. So I am sorry for
that. Perhaps we can have more polite discussions next time!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Watts                                      (___)            )    ) 
University of Saskatchewan                     |o o|___________/     (
Dept of Herd Medicine                     O     \#/            |     )
and Theriogenology                      |bser|   | Statistical |     (
Western College of Vet. Med.            |vati|   |   analysis  |     ) 
52 Campus Drive                         |ons.|    \___________/|     *&
Saskatoon                               ------     ||         ||    %$#@
S7N 1B4                                /      \    ||         ||    ^*@*~
Canada                                                             &^%%#$@
wattsjon@duke.usask.ca                            "The Holy Cow"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk"  "Hans Erhard"  7-MAY-1998 10:05:10.67
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

 Janice  wrote:
> I think that what we have been reading in this discussion demonstrates is
> that an intention-driven defination differs from a consequences-driven
> defination.  
 <snip>
>  I suspect that we won't reach a consensus about this unless we
> can aggree on our definition of aggression.

Categorisation schemes are supposed to help us bring order into 
chaos.   They are helpful if they do, and they are not helpful if 
they don't.  
 When I read papers and books about aggression, I always 
felt that 'predation' did not really fit in.  It didn't make the 
chaos clearer to me.
My suggestion for a categorisation scheme which includes predation 
and aggression  is that both predation and aggression are 
subcategories of something along the lines of  'biting behaviour'.  
Other subcategories could be grooming, copulation, feeding, nest 
building.

What do you think?

Hans
____________________________________
Macaulay Land Use Research Institute
Craigiebuckler
Aberdeen AB15 8QH
Tel.:  01224 - 318611
Fax.:  01224 - 311556
email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk

From:	IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu"  "Andrew Luescher"  7-MAY-1998 10:56:44.69
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Aggression

>Dear Hans
>
>It is well established that "predatory aggression" is neurophysiologically
>controlled in very different ways than other (affective) types of
>aggression. It is actually controlled by the appetite center in the
>hypothalamus.
>
>In interesting discussion on what to call aggression and categorization was
>given by David Fraser in Vet Clinics of North America, Food Animal
>Practice, July 1987.
>
>Andrew
>
>At 12:28 PM 5/6/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>Dear Mark and others interested in aggression,
>>There is one question connected to this topic which I've asked myself 
>>for a long time:  On top of  both lists of the 'types of aggression', 
>>there was 'predatory aggression'.  
>> Is there anybody out there who actually believes that killing of 
>>prey by a predator is aggression? Is a cat killing a mouse aggressive 
>>or hungry, or just 'feeding motivated'?
>>  -  Warning!  The next comment is anthropomorphic. -  
>> I do not experience any aggression towards my breakfast, lunch or 
>>dinner.  What makes us think a cat or dog does?  The facial 
>>expressions of predators killing prey are very different from the 
>>ones they have when they interact agonistically with conspecifics, so 
>>I've been told.   I've watched chickens fight, and I've watched them 
>>killing a longworm, and chasing after a mouse (the mouse escaped).  
>>The two behaviours were totally different.  
>>Wouldn't the categorisation schemes benefit if we dropped 
>>predatory 'aggression' from the list?
>>
>>What do you think?
>>
>>Hans
>>
>>____________________________________
>>Hans Erhard
>>Macaulay Land Use Research Institute
>>Craigiebuckler
>>Aberdeen AB15 8QH
>>Tel.:  01224 - 318611
>>Fax.:  01224 - 311556
>>email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk

From:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj"  7-MAY-1998 11:41:23.44
To:	IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk"  "Hans Erhard", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: aggression

Janice  wrote:
>  an intention-driven defination differs from a consequences-driven
defination.
<snip>
----------------------------------------
>Hans Erhard wrote:
>Categorisation schemes are supposed to help us bring order into
>chaos.   They are helpful if they do, and they are not helpful if
>they don't.   What do you think?
---------------------------------------------
We don't seem to be bringing chaos into order, or the converse for that
matter, but we are discovering that language is a really crude tool for
exchanging information.  It would be nice if we had something better.  I
feel more comfortable
thinking in terms of intention-driven definitions since they appear to
suggest a better class of questions than a list of consequences.  In terms
of domestic dogs there are a lot of behaviours that are ambiguous and some
sort of intention-driven
categorization might give some perspective in understanding how dogs
interact with their environment.

An example of ambiguous behaviour that might be amenable to intention-driven
categorization is the relatively simple act of urination.  Females have some
elaborate and confusing urination patterns but males are easier to evaluate
because they're more obvious about it.  The proximate function of urination
is to relieve tension on the walls of the bladder but that is rarely the
only motivation for the act during a male's reproductive life span.  Some of
the functions of raised-leg urination are territorial scent marking,
non-territorial scent marking, habit (?),  as a display of sexual
excitement, as a visual signal (or gesture) to other males, and as half
dozen other potential kinds of messages to conspecifics.  I might mention
that there are some types of urination that are only done in the presence of
humans and some of the specific
acts are so ritualized that they constitute a class of canine responses that
almost describes the dog's attitude toward a human.  There are some
urination behaviours directed to conspecifics that also suggest the
expression of an attitude, or as a signal of indifference.  Given that
confusing array of intentions linked to urinations it is clear that some
urinations are indeed an aggressive act.  Few of these behaviours are
comprehensible unless they are observed in context.
I am not morbidly interested in urination but as a student of dog behaviour
with a keen interest in intraspecific and interspecific communications I
find that this singular act serves an array of communicative signals.  Even
more difficult to understand is the motivation for dogs that display
directed agonistic urinations toward a target but will only exhibit these
behaviours when the target cannot see the display.  The precise human
equivalent is to accept the teacher's reprimand and then present an elevated
middle finger display to the teacher's back as soon as he/she turns away.
This is a confusing topic not only because of it's complexity, but because
it suggests that dogs can think in ways that are quite improbable, that they
might be a lot more intelligent or complex than we suspect.
Cj

From:	IN%"john_and_gill@email.msn.com"  "Gill"  7-MAY-1998 14:58:52.61
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

Hello, Im afraid I have been a "lurker" here so far, but reading with
interest.  I study dog behaviour.

I would like to add some comments to this particular subject.

Kathy Hughs wrote <Chasing often does not end in attack.  My
observation is many chase for the love of the chase.  Many dogs will run
livestock ragged, but never attack.  Many dogs will kill small game and
never
attack large game (cows and people).
I would never want to infer that a dog that chased and killed a cat is going
to graduate to chasing and killing people.>

Predatory aggression shown by a dog does not mean it is being aggressive or
bloodthirsty in its actions, its simply fuelling its body for survival.
Greyhounds for example are trained to chase a make beleive Hare and by doing
so many think exploiting their predatory chase instinct will lead them to
chase and kill cats.  If you beleive the only reason for predatory behaviour
is to obtain food I wonder how many cats have to be eaten by a Greyhound
before it learns this behaviour?

As it is my belief that Predatory aggression is for survival, then the prey
must get eaten or stored away for later consumption.  If the animal does no
do this then it isn't predatory aggression and the only motivation behind
predatory behaviour is the need to eat.

There are many forms of aggression.

Regards
Gill

From:	IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA"  "Jeff Rushen"  7-MAY-1998 15:42:07.66
To:	IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression -REPONSE

>>> Hans Erhard <h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk> 07/05/ 13h03
>>>  When I read papers and books about aggression, I
always felt that 'predation' did not really fit in.  ....snip.... My
suggestion for a categorisation scheme which includes
predation and aggression  is that both predation and
aggression are subcategories of something along the lines
of  'biting behaviour'.  >>>

Whether or not we classify predation with aggression is
somewhat arbitrary and may not be that important. I think
any decision would be premature until we know more about
the causes of each, and then I am sure we will find
similarities and differences. My understanding was that the
"categories" of aggression arose in reaction to unitary
motivation models of aggression such as Lorenz's or the
frustration-aggression model. These models seemed to
suggest that all acts of aggression were the result of the
same cause, whereas the "categorizers" were trying to point
out that aggressive looking behaviours occurred in a variety
of contexts and there may not be much in common. I am not
sure that predation is any more different than are other types
of aggression. I agree with Hans (I think) in that animals
have a number of behaviours that they use (including biting)
when they want to inflict damage, kill or drive away another
animal. These behaviours can be used to satisfy a number
of motivational systems, and the different situations in which
they are employed may not share anything in common,
except that similar sorts of behaviour are used.

Obviously there will be some differences in the exact types
of behaviours used in different situations. The purpose of
predation is to kill and so the predator probably wouldn't
use threat behaviours to drive the prey away. Male lions in a
territorial dispute may want to kill each other and may do so
if they have the chance. But the chance of receiving injury is
so high that they may be satisfied in driving off the other lion,
by using threats rather than killing bites. The fact that they kill
other lions by biting them on the back rather than by
suffocating them (as they do with prey) may just refelect the
fact that it is very dangerous to attack the front end of a lion.

Once we know more about the causes of different types of
aggression then we can see how they are similar and how
they differ. Until then it is an arguement about book chapter
headings.


Jeff Rushen

From:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com"  "James F. Brody"  7-MAY-1998 20:35:27.98
To:	IN%"hbe-request@a3.com"  "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com"  "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	Evening Seminars

Dear all of you everywhere ...

These seminars materialized too late for inclusion in the printed materia=
l.
  Please forgive the imposition.

Jim Brody
------------
Seminar Themes
Healing the Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution
A continuation of Clinical Sociobiology: Taking Charge of Our Genes
Summer 1998

Tuesday, July 21, 1998.   7 P.M. - 9 P.M. (or whenever, food @ 6 P.M.)
GENE CONVERSATIONALISTS AND CONDUCTORS
John Fentress, Ph. D.
Department of Psychology and Neuroscience
Dalhousie University

Instruction versus selection models are now hotly explored in psychology,=

neuroscience and a variety of other biological fields.  Nearly all worker=
s
today believe that a broad epigenetic approach, one that incorporates
developmental conversations between defined intrinsic and extrinsic
factors, is much more productive and reproductive.    Adaptive behavior
reflects the match between organism and environment at every phase of
developmental trajectories, the outcomes of that match heavily influencin=
g
reproductive success.

As a starter, it is useful to think of experience as a much broader conce=
pt
than learning.   Experiences are essentially everything impinging upon (a=
nd
processed by?) the developing organism.   Developmental boundaries open a=
nd
close.  Different genetic backgrounds can produce very different
consequences from the same experience.  Experiences may add information o=
r
select (and amplify) pre-existing potentials.  On the other hand,
biological systems do not just "mirror" the details of experience, but
amplify, distort, and elaborate upon it.  And there are times when
organisms seem quite insensitive to events that have a major impact at
others.

Precisely HOW do we expect genes and experiences to work together?  How d=
o
organisms develop specialized structures and functions and also bring the=
se
into adaptive registration with one another?  How separate versus
interconnected are these systems during ontogeny?  To what extent do gene=
s
set the stage on which other physico-chemical laws work?

These are some of the broad ideas that we might include.  Perhaps, we can=

start by thinking of evolution and development as co-partners
(conversationalists) in the production of adaptive function.   We can the=
n
ask how this conversation works, and where (and how) things might break
down.  I hope that clinical and experimental insights will each be
discussed, and shared with whatever degree of formality makes people happ=
y.
 Concrete examples will be shared.

Wednesday, July 22, 1998.   7 P.M. - 9 P.M. (or whenever, food @ 6 P.M.)
EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY AND THE CLASSIFICATION OF MENTAL DISORDERS
Dylan Evans, M.A.,  Ph. D. Candidate
Center for the Philosophy of Natural and Social Sciences
London School of Economics
London, U. K.

"Psychological Adaptations" promise a modular approach to client diagnosi=
s,
one that incorporates client assets  and their complaints into a treatmen=
t
approach, and views complaints as a product of both the client's particul=
ar
set of mental adaptations as well as his/her setting.  =


There are costs, however.   The current DSM is a complaint-based system a=
nd
represents a substantial financial and administrative apparatus, a growth=

that arose from research investment and funding (health insurance) needs.=
 =

Those needs continue and should be respected.

An "Adaptations" approach has a greater promise of theoretical and applie=
d
links to proximal sciences such as biology, anthropology, and psychology.=
  =

It also promises great power for understanding individual development;
however, it must gain more systematic empirical support for its content
before either promise is kept.

One contribution of an evolutionary model is that of recognizing patholog=
y
as sometimes being an adaptive response -- or an exaggeration of one --
that is in a nonsupportive niche.   Assessment of the client's other
talents as well as his environment become more important steps in forming=

treatment alliances and supplying temporally durable assistance.

Alternate contributions, touched lightly, depending on time and participa=
nt
interests:
Familial traits ... interview parents & grandparents of details of
behavior, not just their mental health diagnoses or temperaments.
Executive Functions ... their contributions to pathology, regardless of
syndrome.
Complexity models of psychopathology.
Sociophysiological ... recognition of facial expression, vocal quality,
hierarchic standing, etc.

Thursday, July 23, 1998.   7 P.M. - 9 P.M. (or whenever, food @ 6 P.M.)
A COMPLEXITY MODEL AND MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT ... GETTING THE CLIENT TO
"MAYBE."
James Brody, Ph.D.
Host, Evolutionary Psychology, Behavior OnLine

Clinical observation reveals that some clients are particularly sensitive=

to small changes in medication dose and type as well as to slight
alterations in their environment, whether a spoken comment or the
triggering of an old memory.   Complexity theory nicely describes these
phenomena as well as remediative steps.

Kauffman (1995, At Home in the Universe, NY: Oxford) discusses chaos,
stasis, and phase transitions.   The model has consequences for evolution=
,
for our cognitive assets, language, and social organization.  There are
powerful implications for diagnosis and treatment of emotional distress a=
s
well as for our understanding of Free Will.
----
Prior Reading: Start with the immediately adjoining essay.   Further essa=
ys
on www.behavior.net/mhn/bolforum/message/27, about 2/3rds down the page.

*Location, Registration, Food: Our meetings will be held in a private hom=
e
in the Wellfleet area.  Maximum of 10 participants in each.   Enroll by
email (jbrody @compuserve.com) or snail =

(J.F. Brody, 1262 W. Bridge St., Spring City, PA 19475)   =

Plan to throw $5 in a bucket for food at Registration on the Cape for eac=
h
seminar.   Let me know if you hate pasta!

From:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com"  "James F. Brody"  7-MAY-1998 20:39:08.40
To:	IN%"hbe-request@a3.com"  "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com"  "Paleopsych"
CC:	
Subj:	A Complexity Theory and Psychopathology

Dear all,

The attached takes a look at some problems in psychopathology from the
standpoint of some models spun by Stu Kauffman.  Feedback appreciated.

Jim Brody
---------------
Introduction: Kauffman's Model & the Diagnosis, and Treatment of Emotiona=
l
Distress
May 5, 1998

THE MODEL
Kauffman (1995) discusses chaos, stasis, and phase transitions.   The mod=
el
has consequences for evolution and for understanding our cognitive assets=
,
language, and social organization.  There are implications for diagnosis
and treatment of emotional distress as well as for our understanding of
Free Will.

Chaos refers to the absence of predictable outcomes from single or multip=
le
events.   A tiny variation in one trait cascades into every larger, ever
wider changes.   Stasis refers to prolonged intervals of no change whethe=
r
in species or rocks.   Phase transition applies to the interval between
changes from one state to another.    =


We are surrounded by natural examples; the action of light switches is a
useful artificial one.   Press the switch lever a tenth inch upwards, the=

bulb remains dark.  It stays dark with each tenth inch the lever travels
until the midpoint of the lever's range.  Travel that middle tenth -- the=

phase transition -- and the bulb lights completely, getting no brighter
with further deflection of the lever.   The cycling of water between soli=
d,
liquid, and vapor is a second example.   Liquidity occupies a very narrow=

zone of the range of possible temperatures; ice or vapor occupy the
remainder.

Kauffman's model suggests 1) that life operates in a narrow interval
between the phases of random activity and rigidity and, 2) the continuum
between randomness and behavioral rigidity is a function of the number of=

interconnections between decision units.   Mathematical analyses reveal a=

narrow range separating stasis from chaos, a sufficiently narrow range to=

be designated a "phase transition."   =


APPLICATION TO PSYCHOPATHOLOGY
A phase transition model seems promising for an understanding of rapid
cycling as well as to other syndromes associated with brain damage,
developmental disabilities, ADHD, mania, schizophrenia, and Alzheimers.  =

One of the model's contributions for our understanding of all of these
disorders is the heightened probability that density of interconnection
between competing neural mechanisms, including some of those involved in
different psychological adaptations, is a key regulatory factor in the
quality of the disorder.

Kauffman's model suggests that rapid oscillation in emotional states is a=

function of interconnections between neurons rather than in the total
number of neurons.    Analogue changes in the intensity of a reaction and=

smooth sequencing between opposed reactions is likely a function of the
number of connections between competing cell assemblies.   Evolutionary,
complex behaviors such as those associated with Executive Functions or
creative thought may be a product of interconnection density rather than
particular cell nuclei.   =


Disruption of axonal interplay by any means -- trauma or chemical shifts =
--
should elicit more spastic movements, scrambled thoughts, and difficulty
engaging and disengaging action sequences.  High degrees of response
variability become a pessimistic diagnostic sign.

TREATMENT
Therapeutic interventions that encourage more dense interconnection shoul=
d
not only smooth execution of response sequences but encourage the operati=
on
of Executive Functions such as planning, waiting, task switching,
analytical ability, and the ability to synthesize new motor sequences for=

problem solving.

The sensed attribute of richer connections between logic units is a wider=

range of indecision, a wider range in which the words "maybe," "often,"
"usually," or "seldom" apply.   These shifts are likely regardless of
whether the logic units are molecular, chemical, neuronal, or electrical.=
  =

They will apply whether occurring within a single organism or within a
flock and whether the signal between logic units is an action potential o=
r
the sensory impact of a conspecific.

Therapeutic interventions that encourage more crosstalk should not only
smooth execution of response sequences but encourage the operation of
Executive Functions such as planning, waiting, task switching, analytical=

ability, and the ability to synthesize new motor sequences.   Traditional=

interventions such as learning, anxiety reduction, cognitive therapy, and=

certain classes of medication likely help move us out of stasis or
stereotypy and towards Maybe, the center of a phase transition.  Even
exercise and dietary shifts could help increase crosstalk between our
different psychological adaptations and slow the automatic execution of a=
ny
one of them.

There are many instances where crosstalk within the client is insufficien=
t.
  It becomes important then to establish crosstalk (alliances) between th=
e
client and other people.   While the magic number is still 3, the larger
the group, the less likely an extreme decision becomes.   Friends and
family have more stable features (and are more preditable) than any singl=
e
member.  Therapists, ministers, and professional friends become more
important for an impulsive person who does not have prior alliances.   Th=
e
periodic need for long term support and environmental adjustments lies
within this framework.

More detailed essays posted www.behavior.net/mhn/bolforum/message/27, abo=
ut
2/3rds down the page.

From:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj"  8-MAY-1998 01:51:26.47
To:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com"  "James F. Brody", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com"  "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com"  "Paleopsych"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: A Complexity Theory

>Jim Brody said:
>---------------
 Kauffman's Model
>Kauffman (1995) discusses chaos, stasis, and phase transitions.   The model
>has consequences for evolution and for understanding our cognitive assets,
>language, and social organization.  There are implications for diagnosis
>and treatment of emotional distress as well as for our understanding of
>Free Will.
>
>Chaos refers to the absence of predictable outcomes from single or multiple
>events.   A tiny variation in one trait cascades into every larger, ever
>wider changes.   Stasis refers to prolonged intervals of no change whether
>in species or rocks.   Phase transition applies to the interval between
>changes from one state to another.


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Just trying to understand the model...
     Some models can be run in two directions, e.g the most commonly used
population model for whitetail deer populations
is believed to be reasonably predictive and depends on the amount of winter
snowfall.  It is quit common for deer management agencies to predict the
annual deer harvest based on this model.  The model has equal validity if
run backward eg. if you know the deer population you can calculate last
winter's snowfall or even predict next winter's snowfall if you have an
independent estimate of next year's deer population.  This reversibility,
which appears nonsensical but is well within the rules, mathematics and
statistics of this model, is intuitively suspect.   I am skeptical of any
model that runs forward or backward with equal facility and generates
reportedly valid predictions in one direction and irrelevant nonsense when
run in the other direction.
    If I try to apply this model to a predator-prey interaction in which the
evolutionary strategy is survival for both species
and the primary variable is the number of  discrete environments in which
these organisms interact (more interconnections)
I get the feeling that I'm running the model backwards.  An old empirical ex
periment with the cottony cushion scale on oranges and a predator that fed
on it is perhaps a way to try out the model.  The experimenter created an
interaction matrix
by placing scale infected oranges in a container, each orange touched the
side of the container and several other oranges.
If the effect of the container surface contact was eliminated (it was done
by smearing the inside of the container with vaseline which was avoided by
both the scale and its' predator) the introduction of  a small number of
predators to the pail of oranges always resulted in the eventual
extermination of the scale.    One population slides to extinction, the
other either
emigrates or starves to death.  This is a one way sequence and the only
variations are the time required for the parasite to eliminate the scale.
As the number of oranges in the pail were increased the time it took for the
predator to exterminate the prey increased.  This may be comparable to a
stimulus-response sequence or a recovery from a bacterial infection or even
the return to normal functioning after the disruption of a number of
elements (damage to neurons or memories ?).
        In effect the variables return to stasis (zero population) and
increasing the number of interconnections (oranges) the
trek to stasis (extinction) increases the time needed to reach steady state.
The experimenter found something very interesting by continuously increasing
the number of oranges, the time to stasis gradually increased until the pail
contained, on average, about 40 oranges.  Suddenly at 40 oranges the
complexity of the environment (more contacts between more oranges) attained
a density that permitted the escape from extinction of the cottony cushion
scale.  Above 40 oranges the scale always survived because there were more
refuges from the predators, at that time the predators were also released
from the inevitable extinction.  Orange counts in excess of 40 always
created randomly variable scale and predator populations that wandered about
but never went to extinction (stasis).
    A crude application of the model to this example produced the following
conclusions:
At modest orange density (number of interconnections) the variables (scale
and predators) always went to stasis (extinction).  Increasing the
interconnections lengthened the time to stasis but at high density of
interconnections (more than 40 oranges) the variables reached chaos
(continuous persistence of random variables)..    My question is to inquire
if the model could be used in this pseudo-evolutionary experiment and, if it
is appropriate, should the increasing complexity of
interactions or interconnections shift the variables from a short time
return (phase transition) to stasis to a total chaos that never returns to
stasis?    Or am I running it backwards ?     Cj


From:	IN%"Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se"  "Anna Olsson"  8-MAY-1998 02:29:03.29
To:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be"  "E JORIS", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	animal welfare - a global issue?

Dear all,

Recently, Janice Willard and Eva Joris have brought up the issue of animal
welfare in countries outside the Western world. I am concerned that they
did not cause the discussion I think they should do, because I think this
is a serious issue we need to address right now in applied ethology -
animal welfare science. Especially so because the ISAE congress this summer
has -- Applied ethology and the developing countries -- as one of the main
session topics.

Those of us who have been working in developing countries or have had
discussions about animal welfare with colleagues from Africa, Asia and
Latin America recognize the problems Eva Joris brings up: how to discuss
animal welfare with people whose own welfare is seriously at stake?

We also know that membership distribution of ISAE is heavily skewed towards
Western Europe and North America. Last year attempts were made to organize
a Mediterranean meeting of the ISAE but failed because of too few
participants. We also often hear about Southern European countries
differing from Northern European countries in having a less respectful view
of animals, which is claimed to be due to the Catholic church.

It is obvious that the concern of animal welfare is not similar in all
cultures. The issue is more difficult to bring up outside Western Europe
and North America, due to cultural differences, as Janice Willard brought
up in the case of Japan, and due to the problems of poor human welfare, as
Eva Joris pointed at from her African experiences. Nevertheless, I think
that applied ethologists in the west really should not look away from this
difficult issue but stand up and address it. Is animal welfare only a
Western issue or does it have a global interest? If it is of global
interest, as I hope and believe, how do we work together with people in
other countries and cultures to promote the concern for and knowledge of
animal needs? And is the conflict between animal welfare and human welfare
unavoidable?=20

I think it is time for us to discuss this!

Yours sincerely,

Anna Olsson
-----------------------------------------------------

Anna Olsson
agronom - doktorand / M Sc of agriculture - PhD student

Inst f=F6r husdjurens milj=F6 och h=E4lsa
Sveriges Lantbruksuniversitet
Box 234
532 23 Skara

Dept of Animal Environment and Health
Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences
P O Box 234
S-532 23 Skara
Sweden

tel 46 (0)511 - 67245 (direct), 67218 (secretary)
fax 46 (0)511 - 67204

e-mail anna.olsson@hmh.slu.se

From:	IN%"jkincaid@unix.kawartha.com"  8-MAY-1998 08:36:53.36
To:	IN%"Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se"  "Anna Olsson"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology"
Subj:	RE: animal welfare - a global issue?

Anna Olsson wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> Recently, Janice Willard and Eva Joris have brought up the issue of animal
> welfare in countries outside the Western world. I am concerned that they
> did not cause the discussion I think they should do, because I think this
> is a serious issue we need to address right now in applied ethology -
> animal welfare science. Especially so because the ISAE congress this summer
> has -- Applied ethology and the developing countries -- as one of the main
> session topics.
> 
> Those of us who have been working in developing countries or have had
> discussions about animal welfare with colleagues from Africa, Asia and
> Latin America recognize the problems Eva Joris brings up: how to discuss
> animal welfare with people whose own welfare is seriously at stake?
> 
> We also know that membership distribution of ISAE is heavily skewed towards
> Western Europe and North America. Last year attempts were made to organize
> a Mediterranean meeting of the ISAE but failed because of too few
> participants. We also often hear about Southern European countries
> differing from Northern European countries in having a less respectful view
> of animals, which is claimed to be due to the Catholic church.
> 
> It is obvious that the concern of animal welfare is not similar in all
> cultures. The issue is more difficult to bring up outside Western Europe
> and North America, due to cultural differences, as Janice Willard brought
> up in the case of Japan, and due to the problems of poor human welfare, as
> Eva Joris pointed at from her African experiences. Nevertheless, I think
> that applied ethologists in the west really should not look away from this
> difficult issue but stand up and address it. Is animal welfare only a
> Western issue or does it have a global interest? If it is of global
> interest, as I hope and believe, how do we work together with people in
> other countries and cultures to promote the concern for and knowledge of
> animal needs? And is the conflict between animal welfare and human welfare
> unavoidable?
> 
> I think it is time for us to discuss this!
> 
> Yours sincerely,
> 
> Anna Olsson
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> Anna Olsson
> agronom - doktorand / M Sc of agriculture - PhD student
> 
> Inst för husdjurens miljö och hälsa
> Sveriges Lantbruksuniversitet
> Box 234
> 532 23 Skara
> 
> Dept of Animal Environment and Health
> Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences
> P O Box 234
> S-532 23 Skara
> Sweden
> 
> tel 46 (0)511 - 67245 (direct), 67218 (secretary)
> fax 46 (0)511 - 67204
> 
> e-mail anna.olsson@hmh.slu.se
Hello Anna;
I agree with you that animal welfare is a global issue. No question in
my mind. The difficulties are vast. Some of the questions I ask myself
are

How do I address animal welfare in a country where dog meat is part of
the menu?

How do I address animal welfare to a poor peasant who needs to clear
land to feed his family because he either clears land or his family dies
from starvation. Tough questions with no easy solutions.

One of the ways I think is to encourage people to engage in eco-tourism.
That is a long term solution but I am at a loss as to what to do in the
short term.

On to a more mundane issue. Can anyone tell me the hearing range of the
domestic ferret? If there is a reference please quote it.

Thanks 
John

From:	IN%"heltonws@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU"  8-MAY-1998 08:47:27.47
To:	IN%"Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.SE"  "Anna Olsson"
CC:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.BE"  "E JORIS", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology"
Subj:	RE: animal welfare - a global issue?

Hello Anna, and the rest of the group, 
	I agree that this is an important issue that needs to be looked 
at. I'm a psychologist and would be interested to know what information 
others have on the issue of how different cultures view animal welfare. 
If it turns out that non-Northwestern European cultures are not concerned 
with animal welfare, that would have a great impact on the direction of future
research (at least mine). Also, I would be interested in the impact of 
religious beliefs (or the lack of them) on issues of animal welfare. If a 
certain religious belief system includes the idea that animals have no 
cognitive ablilities, emotions, soul, etc., then how is that going to 
impact the people who are trying to promote animal welfare in those 
areas that hold those beliefs. Is animal welfare more of a concern in 
India (which is largely Hindu- i.e. belief in reincarnation), than in 
Pakistan (which is largely Muslim)? 
	Personally, my intution leads me to think that these religious 
belief should have some impact, but that impact might be minamal 
compared to other issues such as economics, geography, etc. I don't think 
the Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc. are more concerned with animal 
welfare than the US or Canada, even thogh the former are largely 
Buddhists (a belief system that promotes compassion for all 
creatures) and the later are largely Christian (which traditionally 
has looked down at animals as expendible commodities- although 
granted orginally that may not have been the case).  
	I hope others will be interested in this issue, and I would like 
to hear from them. 
						Talk to you later,
						William (Deak) Helton
      

From:	IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net"  "Robin Walker"  8-MAY-1998 09:10:03.30
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)"
CC:	
Subj:	Warriors and Worriers

>The advantages of the lists of types of
aggression is that they acknowledge that aggressive
behaviour is not a unitary type of behaviour with its own
distinct motivation, but is rather a set of instrumental
behaviours that is recruited to achieve a variety of goals,
and to help satisfy a variety of motivations.<
                                                       Jeff Rushen.


This, for me, is the heart of the matter.

Whilst I completely understand the wish to exclude
Predation by virtue of its non-emotional function
as a mode of feeding, I do not think we can . 

The food taking habits of the carnivore must be
non-emotional. Gibbering with fury as you approach
your prey is handicapping and turning cartwheels in
frustration when you miss your strike is debilitating.

Somewhere in the evolutionary process the neurocircuitry
has been adjusted to restrain affect. This is adaptive.

If the prey fights back the predator may have to switch
rapidly into defensive aggression. The emotion here is
fear and the affect is aversive (however brief).  In a tussle
with prey a 'learning' process of rapidly alternating success and failure
may ensue . The aggression here might be called Offensive and
is associated with the affect of 'reward'

So we might lay out a provisional schema thus:- 

Predation ............Hunting and Killing...(Highly rewarding but not emotional)

Offensive Aggression ..Fighting for Social , Sexual or Territorial Advantage
                                                         (Rewarding and emotional)

Defensive Aggression ...Fighting for your life ..(Highly Aversive, intensely emotional)

The dog has provoked the most 'emotional' responses from correspondents so
let us look at that first.

The canid pack at a kill shows a variety of skills. The 'bravest'
(In my anthropomorphic view) are attached to the nose of the buffalo.
A riot of heel grippers, flank snappers and standing back aways 
'bring to bayers', complete the picture. 

Man (I suspect) came to select these skills. By Roman times there
seem to have been roughly four types of dog (Varro). Shepherd dog
(droving, flock guarding), Hunting dogs (sight and wind hounds),
Homestead dogs (guarding) and Butchers dogs (? nose grabbers and hold 
what may hounds).

So predatory skills were selected and enhanced from the outset.

The unsignalled, remorseless, pain proof, indefatigable attack of the 
bull terrier must be classed as predatory aggression.

In observing, confronting and rehabilitating aggressive creatures the question
of hedonic status is critical.  Dogs which are enjoying aggression
must be taught other better rewards. Dogs which are reflexly
attacking in fear (and becoming addicted to the euphoria of escape)
must be taught not to fear.  Adding aversion to aversion by punishing
a fear aggressor is a desperate mistake. Punishing a highly rewarding
routine risks inducing acute frustration (withdrawal) and triggering
a compensatory rage.

Padding the list of aggression types with a plethora of contexts and 
triggers is possibly not helpful.

Just to put it in perspective I do believe that a balanced society
must have a mix of warriors and worriers and the balanced individual
should be able to adjust swiftly and economically between assertion
and caution.

Robin 

From:	IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu"  8-MAY-1998 10:41:20.97
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Including owners in behavior Dx

Reply to message from M.Kiley-Worthington@exeter.ac.uk of Tue, 05 May
>
>
>
>
>On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:00:17 -0700 Andrew Luescher wrote:
>
>> From: Andrew Luescher <luescher@vet.purdue.edu>
>> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:00:17 -0700
>> Subject: DSM
>> To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
>> 
>> 
>> John and all
>> 
>> Thanks for your contribution. This is a topic very close to my heart.
>> 
>> I am very afraid that a veterinary DSM would indeed be very restrictive. It
>> would also mislead less experienced clinicians just because it would allow
>> them to collect information in a more goal-directed, efficient way. When
>> taking a history, I spend more time on early history of the animal, general
>> management, type of training and training devices (in dogs), owner-pet
>> interaction and the pet's temperament than I do on the behavior problem
>> itself. I believe that such a holistic approach is more appropriate to
>> re-integrate the pet into the owner's lives than a symptom-driven DSM-style





****************************************************
>Dept. of Psychology
>Washington Singer Labs
>Room No: 016
>University of Exeter
>Perry Road
>Exeter EX4 4QG, UK
>
>FAX +44 1392 264623
>****************************************************************************
>
>I do agree with Andrew on this. When being consulted on behaviour problems, 
>the time is spend much as he indicates, also with a 
>serious assessment of the people themselves and the preconcieved notions 
>they may have which in turn is adding to the problem or 
>even causing it. In addition, the retraining and rehabilitation work has to 
>be done, we have found from bitter experience with not only 
>the animal patient, but the client owners handlers as well or it all goes 
>wrong again when the animal goes home. Many others have of 
>course had this experience. I would not consider a DSM is very useful unless 
>this is all structured properly into it. 
>Marthe Kiley-Worthington
>
>
>
>
	Of course the animal owners/handlers MUST be part of the basic
diagnosis/treatment equation. But that dimension of behavior therapy is
rarely mentioned in current literature, at least on this side of the pond. 
Thanks very much for bringing this aspect of animal behavior therapy into 
the discussion. 
	Within this theme, I understand that there is a specific concept
 of "Systemic Therapy" in Europe that includes an examination of ALL the 
individuals in the problem group as the core of the therapy. If anyone is
familiar with System Therapy, I would be very interested.
	

--
    ^    ^      DBC   (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM)
   < \  / >     Animal Behavior Clinic		440/826-0013
     !  !       18250 Main Street		Fx: 234-3407
      ..        Middleburg Hts., OH 44130

From:	IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA"  "Jeff Rushen"  8-MAY-1998 10:53:59.58
To:	IN%"jkincaid@oncomdis.on.ca", IN%"jkincaid@unix.kawartha.com"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: animal welfare - a global issue? -REPONSE

>>> John Kincaid <jkincaid@oncomdis.on.ca> 08/05/ 10h36
>How do I address animal welfare in a country where dog
meat is part of the menu?>>>

Why is this any different from addressing animal welfare in a
country where pig meat is part of the menu? It looks like
there are some unconscious prejudices here (either against
pigs or against people who eat dogs).

>>>>How do I address animal welfare to a poor peasant
who needs to clear land to feed his family because he either
clears land or his family dies from starvation. >>>

In a similar way you address it to a not-particularly-rich
western farmer who has to make a profit from his/her
enterprise or else go on the dole. It is more a difference of
degree than a qualitative one.

Jeff Rushen


From:	IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca"  "Jon Watts"  8-MAY-1998 11:22:49.90
To:	IN%"jkincaid@unix.kawartha.com"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	Ferret hearing.

[Sorry if you get this a couple of times, John. I wasn't sure which of
your addresses to send it to]

John,

At 60 dB a ferret's hearing range is from 36 Hz to 42 KHz. Quite close to
a dog's.

That's according to Heffner & Heffner's chapter on auditory perception in 
"Farm animals and the environment" Edited by C. Phillips and D. Piggins
(1992) C.A.B International.

The actual paper citation that those numbers come from is listed in the
book no doubt, but I don't have that information on hand right now. If you
don't have access to the book and need the reference to the original
study, let me know and I'll try to look it up for you.

Jon

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Watts                                      (___)            )    ) 
University of Saskatchewan                     |o o|___________/     (
Dept of Herd Medicine                     O     \#/            |     )
and Theriogenology                      |bser|   | Statistical |     (
Western College of Vet. Med.            |vati|   |   analysis  |     ) 
52 Campus Drive                         |ons.|    \___________/|     *&
Saskatoon                               ------     ||         ||    %$#@
S7N 1B4                                /      \    ||         ||    ^*@*~
Canada                                                             &^%%#$@
wattsjon@duke.usask.ca                            "The Holy Cow"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu"  8-MAY-1998 11:26:02.02
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Mixing adult cats/kittens

	Odors and pheromones are very important to domestic felines 
for personal and group identity. Therefore, mutual toweling is a 
very useful technique for introducing or reintroducing cats.
	Once or twice daily all individuals in the group are 
rubbed down with two or more towels; special attention to the scent
producing areas of the skin of the face, feet, tail, and perineum.
Then the towels are left in the "home" areas of the various 
participants until the next rub down. The idea is to make all 
individuals smell like all other individuals which facilitates
social acceptance.
	This is an excellent prophylactic therapy when one individual 
in a group is unavoidably separated from the rest for a period of time;
e.g. when one is left in a veterinary hospital for surgery.




Reply to message from J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk of Tue, 05 May
>
>Has anyone any tips on introducing an unrelated adult male cat
>("Stanley") 
>to kittens.   Stanley is 4 years old and has been used to living with
>other 
>cats in the past.  The kittens have just been separated from their
>mother 
>and are 7 weeks old.  The kittens, as would be expected, are fine about 
>Stanley, but Stanley appears to be frightened of the kittens, shown by 
>avoidance and lots of hissing.  We're giving Stanley lots of attention, 
>and even tried a tip in a book, which suggested putting pilchard juice
>on 
>the kittens, so as to make them all smell the same and induce grooming
>by 
>the adult.  This didn't make any difference.  Does anyone know how best
>to deal with this situation, other than simply giving the animal's time.
>Julie
>
>
>

--
    ^    ^      DBC   (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM)
   < \  / >     Animal Behavior Clinic		440/826-0013
     !  !       18250 Main Street		Fx: 234-3407
      ..        Middleburg Hts., OH 44130

From:	IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu"  8-MAY-1998 11:32:04.52
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Healthy animal-human animal interaction. -Reply

	Now all we need is a definition of "unnecessary" to 
determine which camp you are in. 

	Or maybe the whole problem is just a matter of semantics.





Reply to message from pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us of Tue, 05 May
>
>I think Kathy Hughes' description of animal rightists is skewed.  Most
>AR's do not believe that animals equal humans in every way, that they
>should have the same legal status as humans, that there should be no
>companion animals or that it is equally important to save the life of a pig
>as that of a boy.  My own personal belief, which I think many others
>share, is that animals should have the right to live lives that are free of
>any unnecessary pain, suffering or death.
>
>

--
    ^    ^      DBC   (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM)
   < \  / >     Animal Behavior Clinic		440/826-0013
     !  !       18250 Main Street		Fx: 234-3407
      ..        Middleburg Hts., OH 44130

From:	IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us"  "Paul Carella"  8-MAY-1998 13:03:38.57
To:	IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Healthy animal-human animal interaction. -Reply -Reply

Every animal will someday die and, in the course of its life, will inevitably
experience a certain amount of pain and suffering, so it would make no
sense to discuss a "right" to something that is impossible to attain.  We
can, however, minimize those experiences that are human-induced and
are avoidable and unnecessary.  How each of us defines unnecessary
will determine which camp we believe we are in if we find it necessary
to categorize ourselves.  Being defined as a welfarist or a rightist does
not have a lot of significance in the real world.  What matters is whether
or not we act as compassion, thoughtful beings with the understanding
that we are unique in possessing  the capacity to influence the lives of
so many other animals. 

Paul

>>> D.B. Cameron <aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu> 05/08/98 01:31pm
>>>

	Now all we need is a definition of "unnecessary" to 
determine which camp you are in. 

	Or maybe the whole problem is just a matter of semantics.





Reply to message from pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us of Tue, 05 May
>
>I think Kathy Hughes' description of animal rightists is skewed.  Most
>AR's do not believe that animals equal humans in every way, that they
>should have the same legal status as humans, that there should be no
>companion animals or that it is equally important to save the life of a pig
>as that of a boy.  My own personal belief, which I think many others
>share, is that animals should have the right to live lives that are free of
>any unnecessary pain, suffering or death.
>
>

--
    ^    ^      DBC   (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM)
   < \  / >     Animal Behavior Clinic		440/826-0013
     !  !       18250 Main Street		Fx: 234-3407
      ..        Middleburg Hts., OH 44130


From:	IN%"arioncr@mindspring.com"  "Chris Redenbach"  8-MAY-1998 14:55:51.42
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	aggression

Below is an outline that I composed originally 5 years ago as the first
part of a two part talk for dog breeders. In the form here it is adapted
for a talk to breeders of Bouviers des Flandres. 

Before that I have some comments on the thread so far.

I believe that aggression is a normal part of many different systems and it
is our fear that causes us to attach such prejudice to our thoughts about
it. The best parts of life would lack spice if not for the intricate
highlighting with ritualized aggression.....sports, mating rituals, play.
It is more a question of degrees not unlike the ideas of yin and yang. 

I agree with Robin that a balanced individual and a balanced population
have the ability to express aggression and fear and modify either as
necessary.

I have several times rehabilitated highly aggressive dogs by changing their
aggression to play by painstaking stages that give them confidence and
reframe their associations.

In my outline I have included something that I began to call "acquisitive"
aggression. I wanted to distinguish it from other forms of aggression that
also involve elements of competition. In acquisitive aggression there can
also be a lack of emotionality. It has to do with singularity of purpose
and a clear mind rather than a lack of aggression. It is not unlike certain
elements of predation.

I mention the aggression of the bully/scapegoat relationship as well and I
believe that the aggression here can become so ritualized after a time that
the aggressor also does not show emotion. I would not like to call this
normal and I do not think it is predatory, but it is not uncommon.

As to predation....I believe that there is no emotional state reflected by
the predator in chase because all its forces are martialed into
concentration on a goal. Any emotion has been left behind in whatever
behaviors led to the hunt. A rough (maybe too rough) comparison would be
the emotional build-up of courage prior to a group hunt that represents
danger to the human hunters of a tribe. Group cohesion and courage is
affirmed in a ceremony and then everyone just does a job during the hunt
unless things go awfully bad and the hunter becomes the defender. One can
see this change of attitude in many films of pack hunting when the prey is
large and dangerous.

Janice's observations of the injurious play behaviors involved in dogs in
the sheep flock as opposed to coyotes in the flock is so accurate. Many
dogs do not appear to know how to terminate this behavior sequence with a
kill and they keep looping back. I believe Fox did some work on this many
years ago.

And I wonder, in light of the pointer that Robin spoke of who was addicted
to chasing shadows of birds....could the frustration of never getting to go
on to the next behavior in the sequence be a part of this dog's addiction?
We can maybe assume that it had great pleasure chasing, but did the
addiction come from the feel good chemicals produced by the chase, or was
there involvement of the frustration produced by the illusiveness of a catch? 

I am suspicious of categories since for some they are descriptive and for
others they become prescriptive. They should not be treated as prescriptive
and should always be open for reformulation as information increases....I
would probably change some of the things in what follows.

I did not include predation as an aggression category in this original
outline due to the arguments about whether it is acutally aggression or not
at the time. Today I would include it as I believe that capturing live prey
is never without risk and so the aggression involved is a given from a
certain point of view. Of course with small game, like rabbits, the risk is
minimal and more play behaviors can be included. The larger the game, and
perhaps the greater the hunger, the more focused and devoid of extra
expression. I am becoming more and more convinced of the ability to "plan
ahead" to an extent by certain animals, amongst them dogs, and so suspect
that they can focus and put aside emotion and have it be no less
aggression. The process of ritualization of aggression can either avoid
injury by increasing threat elements, or it can work the other way and
avoid the  externalized expression of threats and be coldly lethal.  

One also needs to think about making a distinction between biting and
grasping with animals who have no hands. Manipulation of objects and
certain social behaviors must be carried out using the mouth rather than
hands. These behaviors can appear to be more aggressive to those who are
physically more sensitive or tender than the species who do them.

This outline is not stylistically consistent, but it is practical and can
be worked from. I have eliminated the last part of the outline as it has to
do with training specifics and behavior modification rather than theory.

Aggression and Dogs: Its Causes and Some Cures
copyright Chris Redenbach 1998

I. General Category: Defensive Aggression
A. Self-defense: Response to a stimulus that, in combination with
historical and physical elements, causes the animal to feel the need to
defend itself
1.Pain induced: an animal already in pain anticipates the need for self
protection
2.Reactive due to basic "nervous system" type
3.Learned after exposure to threatening situations (correction pushed too
far, excessive dominance, repeated application of painful stimuli)
B. Defense of territory: Establishment and later defense of territory is a
normal activity. Our breeds may retain this drive to differing degrees.
C. Defense of possessions: Possession is 9/10ths of the law amongst dogs as
well. Observers feel that the "ownership" drive can often supersede the
individual's standing in the group.
D. Defense of group members: Normal when the group is confronted by
perceived threat from outside the social group. 

II. General Category: Social or Competitive Aggression 
A. Dominance Aggression
1. Already dominant animal reinforcing that dominance by 
a. Punishing another who has broken some social rule such as invasion of
personal space or "rude" behavior
b. Thwarting attempts by others to achieve higher status 
c. Ritual displays of dominance for role maintenance
2. Animal trying to improve in social status by
a. Direct challenges to higher ranking individuals
b. Displays of aggression against lower ranking individuals for the express
purpose of creating a dominance display
3. Role identification and affirmation towards outsiders joining the group.
4. Play passing acceptable levels

B. Juvenile Social and Competitive Aggression
1. Sibling rivalries for litter dominance
2. Competition for toys, etc.
3. Escalations of play

C. Sexual 
1. Between partners 
2. Between rivals

D. Acquisitive
1. Territory
2. Possessions
3. Status (see social)

General Category: Bully/Scapegoat Aggression
A. The Bully: And animal whose drive towards social violence includes
extremes of "out of balance or proportion" causes abnormally high levels of
low threshold violence
B. The Scapegoat: An animal who is regularly victimized by one or more
other group members and somehow manages to be frequently in harms way for
repetition of this (I suspect that such animals often display low key
passive aggression intentions that are picked up on by the bullies and this
remotivates the bully aggression.)
C. The Descendants: It is not unusual for the pups of victims to also be
victimized

General Category: Learned Aggression
A. Success at early attempts at threatening and overt aggressive acts
B. The result of either intentional or unintentional training or
coincidental environmental stimuli which call upon any of the drives or
motivations that elicit natural forms of threat and/or contact aggression:
defense mechanisms, competition, dominance, extreme play

General Category: Redirected Aggression
Occurs when the animal cannot vent his legitimately motivated aggression on
the appropriate object and instead redirects it to something or someone
else. This is a standard category of conflict or thwarting behavior common
to all higher species.

General Category: Idiopathic Aggression
The result of unknown motivators which may include internal chemical 
imbalances or organic disease states

Part II (partial)
Encouraging and Discouraging Aggressive Behavior in Dogs

In all cases relating to dog aggression, the trainer should have an
understanding of what forms of aggression there are, under what conditions
they are likely to occur, how to recognize the early signs of them
(intention movements), and how to either augment them, diminish them or
change their motivation. 

Dogs use a highly expressive language of movements using spatial elements
of area, proximity and elevation, speed or lack thereof, body postures,
individual expressive elements of various body parts, temporal aspects of
display and vocalizations. Occasionally they will also use props like
objects, toys, artificially created spaces. The specific movements are
basically innate with some individual elements of style and they also build
some social customs that can be unique to a specific group. 

A breed can have tendencies that are typical of that breed. I find that
Bouviers are highly vocal in their interactions. Their movements tend to be
big expressive movements, they tend to come primarily from the categories
of social dominance/submission, with a bit of prey (which is often
restricted to actual live prey unless the tendency as a whole is encouraged
by the owner by playing or herding activities), some object playing with
artifacts, and a fair amount of possession of spaces, elevations and
objects. They are often quite confrontational at some level, including play
games. 

Bouviers can be easily misunderstood by dogs of other breeds who read their
body language as very pushy and potentially threatening. This is
undoubtedly a plus in herding and protection situations, however, it can
present a problem in social situations due to the interpretation of
feedback signals. The innocent Bouvier can mean no harm, but change its
mind and become defensive after observing the reaction to its greeting.
They are also often misunderstood from a motivational standpoint by
trainers in general and helpers in the protection sports.
 
(excerpted from part two on training and behavior modification)

Most forms of aggression include some degree of fear causing some level of
defensiveness. A minority of forms of aggression are almost totally without
fear. The degree of fear involved will be a large determinant in the style
of behavior modification most appropriate.
Weak dogs need techniques that combine confidence building, strict but fair
and predictable leadership, and desensitization.
Strong dogs (aggression with little or no fear) require methods that
gradually show the dog that life can be more rewarding working in a team
with a human; that humans have mysterious sources of strength and control
that make them unpredictably able to dominate the environment; that humans
lead them into activities that give them an outlet for aggressive energies.

REMEMBER THAT DOMINANCE AND AGGRESSION ARE NOT DIRTY WORDS, THEY ARE JUST
ATTITUDES ON A CONTINUUM AND CAN BE MODIFIED 

Chris Redenbach                          
  

From:	IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu"  8-MAY-1998 15:14:17.32
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

Reply to message from h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk of Wed, 06 May
>
>Dear Mark and others interested in aggression,
>There is one question connected to this topic which I've asked myself 
>for a long time:  On top of  both lists of the 'types of aggression', 
>there was 'predatory aggression'.  
> Is there anybody out there who actually believes that killing of 
>prey by a predator is aggression? Is a cat killing a mouse aggressive 
>or hungry, or just 'feeding motivated'?


	Actually, a cat killing a mouse is not necessarily hungry, and
even if it is hungry, the killing of the mouse is dealt with in a 
different part of the brain from the hunger center. Those who study this
tell us that, as close as they can determine, the actual killing process
is fun for the cat. Seems not unlikely as cats are very well known to 
prolong the killing process ("playing with the mouse") and to kill with
abandon when eating is not a follow-up event.
	If that is the case, then, perhaps, predatory aggression might
well be placed as a sub-set of play aggression.




>  -  Warning!  The next comment is anthropomorphic. -  
> I do not experience any aggression towards my breakfast, lunch or 
>dinner.  What makes us think a cat or dog does?  The facial 
>expressions of predators killing prey are very different from the 
>ones they have when they interact agonistically with conspecifics, so 
>I've been told.   I've watched chickens fight, and I've watched them 
>killing a longworm, and chasing after a mouse (the mouse escaped).  
>The two behaviours were totally different.  
>Wouldn't the categorisation schemes benefit if we dropped 
>predatory 'aggression' from the list?
>
>What do you think?
>
>Hans
>
>____________________________________
>Hans Erhard
>Macaulay Land Use Research Institute
>Craigiebuckler
>Aberdeen AB15 8QH
>Tel.:  01224 - 318611
>Fax.:  01224 - 311556
>email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk
>
>

--
    ^    ^      DBC   (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM)
   < \  / >     Animal Behavior Clinic		440/826-0013
     !  !       18250 Main Street		Fx: 234-3407
      ..        Middleburg Hts., OH 44130

From:	IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu"  8-MAY-1998 15:25:00.86
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

Reply to message from rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk of Wed, 06 May
>
>>From the point of view of someone trying to "sell" rescue dogs to the
>public I would be delighted if there was a clear message to potential dog
>owners/adopters from ethologists that predation is NOT anything to do with
>aggression. It is often very hard to get over to otherwise reasonable
>people that a predatory, rabbit-chasing dog may not have the slightest
>tendency to be other than friendly and gentle with people and other dogs. 
>
>----------------------------------------
>My opinions are my own Rosemary Rodd <rr25@cam.ac.uk> 
>               01223 335029
>
>
>
	On the other hand, a high percentage of incidents where dogs 
kill newborn human infants very shortly after they are brought home from 
the hospital, on investigation, are attributed to traditional predatory 
aggression. That is, the dog who has not yet been introduced to and accepted 
the infant as part of its "pack", hears and sees this little squirming 
thing and assaults it as a beagle assaults a rabbit.


 

--
    ^    ^      DBC   (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM)
   < \  / >     Animal Behavior Clinic		440/826-0013
     !  !       18250 Main Street		Fx: 234-3407
      ..        Middleburg Hts., OH 44130

From:	IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu"  8-MAY-1998 15:35:22.83
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Human-animal ....

	Looks like E JORIS does not have a corner on the 
ignorant vitriol supply.





Reply to message from wattsjon@duke.usask.ca of Wed, 06 May
>
>On Wed, 6 May 1998, E JORIS wrote:
>
>> It is nice some of you guys have a life in which you never have to make
>> difficult choices. Your public is well educated and knows the difference
>> between animal welfare and animal rightists.....You have your instincts
>> defending you genes and you control your emotions. Are you known under the
>> 'groupname' SCIENTISTS?
>
>> ....... there are things to think about, especially you guys discussing
>> 'she, he or it' from your nice lab, able to do research because animal
>> welfare is trendy.... 
>
>> But maybe I am at the wrong discussion group...let me confess when I apply
>> for a job in Africa I never put 'MSc in Applied Animal Behaviour and Animal
>> Welfare', I leave the three last words away. 
>
>
>Well I think you're full of crap. If you don't have anything to contribute
>to these discussions maybe you are in the wrong group. I won't lose any
>sleep if I don't get to read your ignorant vitriol any more. 
>
>Jon
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jon Watts                                      (___)            )    ) 
>University of Saskatchewan                     |o o|___________/     (
>Dept of Herd Medicine                     O     \#/            |     )
>and Theriogenology                      |bser|   | Statistical |     (
>Western College of Vet. Med.            |vati|   |   analysis  |     ) 
>52 Campus Drive                         |ons.|    \___________/|     *&
>Saskatoon                               ------     ||         ||    %$#@
>S7N 1B4                                /      \    ||         ||    ^*@*~
>Canada                                                             &^%%#$@
>wattsjon@duke.usask.ca                            "The Holy Cow"
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ^    ^      DBC   (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM)
   < \  / >     Animal Behavior Clinic		440/826-0013
     !  !       18250 Main Street		Fx: 234-3407
      ..        Middleburg Hts., OH 44130

From:	IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca"  "Jon Watts"  8-MAY-1998 16:30:12.20
To:	IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu"  "D.B. Cameron"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Human-animal ....

On Fri, 8 May 1998, D.B. Cameron wrote:

> 	Looks like E JORIS does not have a corner on the 
> ignorant vitriol supply.

Dear D.B.,

Your opinion is noted. And is quite correct, naturally.

"The rest of you are a bunch of airheads. All eight hundred or so of you
subscribed to this list.  Especially the huge majority I've never met and
about whom I know nothing whatever."

As I understand it,we've established that a person can be as insulting as
he or she wishes as long as it is done indiscriminately, to everybody
without favour, and without naming a particular individual. Now that is
what I call ignorant vitriol. I don't see how giving a blunt opinion of a
single named person who behaves that way (while possibly being
inappropriate) can be worse. 

Bye...

Jon

P.S. I was just kidding about you all being airheads, so please don't feel
offended. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Watts                                      (___)            )    ) 
University of Saskatchewan                     |o o|___________/     (
Dept of Herd Medicine                     O     \#/            |     )
and Theriogenology                      |bser|   | Statistical |     (
Western College of Vet. Med.            |vati|   |   analysis  |     ) 
52 Campus Drive                         |ons.|    \___________/|     *&
Saskatoon                               ------     ||         ||    %$#@
S7N 1B4                                /      \    ||         ||    ^*@*~
Canada                                                             &^%%#$@
wattsjon@duke.usask.ca                            "The Holy Cow"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From:	IN%"dreyn@sirius.com"  8-MAY-1998 19:11:20.47
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied-Ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	Balancing Welfare Concerns

Hello to all,

Re:Thoughts about addressing animal welfare issues to others. 

I don't think addressing a "poor peasant " in a developing country 
about animal welfare is much different from trying to address local 
folks in my own neighborhood about similar concerns right here at 
home.

We humans are animals too, of course, so we can usually be persuaded 
to alter our behavior if there is truly a reward for doing so. 
Sometimes the reward can be as exciting as money, as practical as more 
food, or as hard to grasp as a "bigger happiness".

To the kids who throw rocks at the sole turtle brave enough to endure 
a polluted urban creek, my job is to find a way to convince them that 
their world is really a better place if this reptile is allowed to 
remain in it. That can be an uphill battle, not just because the kids 
may be difficult to reach, but more because I've got to dig deep 
inside myself to find what it takes in order to foster a positive 
connection while hopefully not turning anybody off. 
To even attempt this I have to be real enough to earn their trust,
wise enough to hopefully know what I'm talking about, compassionate 
enough to accept their history (Hey, we've all been rough on the wild 
things), good-humoured enough to endure their testing me, convincing 
enough to pique their curiousity, consistent enough to encourage this 
new relationship, and forgiving enough to accept that I might just 
find that turtle belly up next week no matter what.

I realize that I've severely simplified this large issue w/ my 
example, however I believe that to answer big questions we have to 
start in smaller places.

In reaching others, of course it is imperative that we first 
acknowlege our own predjudices (the example of comparing our 
pig-eating habits to the dog-eating habits of 'others' was so 
beautiful!) and our own personal contributions to cruelty.

Beyond that, I believe each culture, religion, and belief system, has 
at its core a desire to live fully. And our job is only to 
respectfully offer examples of relationship that create balanced 
health for all (humans and animals) concerned.  

-Donna Reynolds


From:	IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net"  8-MAY-1998 19:13:52.74
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Systemic Therapy

D.B. Cameron's poignant comments about the human role in animal behavior and
treating problems brought to mind that I've been pushing this weighty burden
uphill for many years. My original mentor, [1967-1971] Dare Miller, was the
first pet behaviorist to my knowledge who recognized it and designed
remedial programs around it.

I thought you all might be insterested if the following excerpt from our
current newsletter.

Bill Campbell

(snip)
We've often cited the effects that an owner's behavior plays in creating
problems in dogs, from highly emotional homecomings and departures and
destructive behavior, barking etc., to aggressive displays toward other dogs
and dog fighting. The inter-species effects of allelomimetic phenomena has
received too little attention from behavioral scientists. However, thanks to
a subscriber who browses the internet, the following 1,780 year-old account
by Apollonius Tyana during his travels from Greece in the 3rd century
indicates that science has yet to catch up with the common wisdom.

ANCIENT USE OF IMITATIVE BEHAVIOR
"On Nut Gathering & Ancient Ecologies ...
They say that from this point they crossed the part of the Caucasus which
stretches down to the Red Sea... But on the steeps of this mountain - there
grow very lofty frankincense trees, as well as many other species, for
example the pepper trees which are cultivated by the apes. Nor did they
neglect to record the look and appearance of this tree, and I will repeat
exactly their account of it. 

The pepper tree resembles in general the willow of the Greeks, and
particularly in regard to the berry of the fruit; and it grows in steep
ravines where it cannot be got at by men, and where a community of apes is
said to live in the recesses of the mountain and in any of its glens; and
these apes are held in great esteem by the Indians, because they harvest the
pepper for them, and they (the Indians) drive the lions off them with dogs
and weapons. For the lion, when he is sick, attacks the ape in order to get
a remedy, for the flesh of the ape stays the course of his disease; and he
attacks it when he is grown (too) old to get a meal, for the lions when they
are past hunting stags and wild boars gobble up the apes, and husband for
their pursuit whatever strength they have left. The inhabitants of the
country, however, are not disposed to allow this, because they regard these
animals as their benefactors, and so make war against the lions in behalf of
them. 

For this is the way they go to work in collecting the pepper; the Indians go
up to the lower trees and pluck off the fruit, and they make little round
shallow pits around the trees, into which they collect the pepper,
carelessly tossing it in, as if it had no value and was of no serious use to
mankind. Then the monkeys mark their actions from above out of their
fastnesses, and when the night comes on they imitate the action of the
Indians, and twisting off the twigs of the trees, they bring and throw them
into the pits in question; then the Indians at daybreak carry away the heaps
of the spice which they have thus got without any trouble, and indeed during
the repose of slumber."
Clever, those ancient Indians. This is, so far, the earliest record we've
seen of inter-species use of allelomimetic behavior. 

From: The Life of Apollonius of Tyana Philostratus {220 AD}
Found on the Web at - http://www.magna.com.au/~prfbrown/atyana24.html (snip)


From:	IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com"  "Howl Bloom"  8-MAY-1998 21:47:57.91
To:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: A Complexity Theory and Psychopathology

In a message dated 98-05-07 22:39:04 EDT, you write:

<< Subj:	 A Complexity Theory and Psychopathology
 Date:	98-05-07 22:39:04 EDT
 From:	JBrody@compuserve.com (James F. Brody)
 Sender:	owner-paleopsych@kumo.com
 To:	hbe-request@a3.com (HBES List Serve), applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
(Applied Ethology), paleopsych@kumo.com (Paleopsych)
 
 Dear all,
 
 The attached takes a look at some problems in psychopathology from the
 standpoint of some models spun by Stu Kauffman.  Feedback appreciated.
 
 Jim Brody
 ---------------
 Introduction: Kauffman's Model & the Diagnosis, and Treatment of Emotional
 Distress
 May 5, 1998
 
 THE MODEL
 Kauffman (1995) discusses chaos, stasis, and phase transitions.   The model
 has consequences for evolution and for understanding our cognitive assets,
 language, and social organization.  There are implications for diagnosis
 and treatment of emotional distress as well as for our understanding of
 Free Will.
 
 Chaos refers to the absence of predictable outcomes from single or multiple
 events.   A tiny variation in one trait cascades into every larger, ever
 wider changes.   Stasis refers to prolonged intervals of no change whether
 in species or rocks.   Phase transition applies to the interval between
 changes from one state to another.    
 
 We are surrounded by natural examples; the action of light switches is a
 useful artificial one.   Press the switch lever a tenth inch upwards, the
 bulb remains dark.  It stays dark with each tenth inch the lever travels
 until the midpoint of the lever's range.  Travel that middle tenth -- the
 phase transition -- and the bulb lights completely, getting no brighter
 with further deflection of the lever.   The cycling of water between solid,
 liquid, and vapor is a second example.   Liquidity occupies a very narrow
 zone of the range of possible temperatures; ice or vapor occupy the
 remainder.
 
 Kauffman's model suggests 1) that life operates in a narrow interval
 between the phases of random activity and rigidity and, 2) the continuum
 between randomness and behavioral rigidity is a function of the number of
 interconnections between decision units.  INTERESTING.  THIS IS ONE OF THE
FACTORS TRACED IN _THE GLOBAL BRAIN_ FOR THE BREAKDOWN OF THE FLEEING STAGE.
OUT-OF-CONTROL ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS LIKE NOISE, HEAT, BAD NEWS, ETC. HAVE
BEEN SHOWN TO INCREASE THE IRRITABILITY OF INDIVIDUALS AND DRIVE THEM APART.
THIS QUALIFIES AS A TRUE BREAKDOWN OF THE CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE DECISION
UNITS.  OTHER RESEARCH DEMONSTRATES THAT THESE CONDITIONS DECREASE THE ABILITY
OF INDIVIDUALS TO COMMUNICATE AND INCREASE DISCOMMUNICATIVE EMOTIONAL
TENSIONS.  FOR EXAMPLE, EXTREME HEAT IS CORRELATED WITH THE OCCURRENCE OF
AMERICAN URBAN RIOTS.  THE _GLOBAL BRAIN_ POSTULATES THAT A GROUP WEAKENED BY
THE POISONING OF THE LINKS BETWEEN COMMUNICATIVE UNITS BECOMES RIPE FOR
TAKEOVER BY A LEADER.  IT LOSES ITS ABILITY TO LEAD AND BECOMES A SET OF
POTENTIAL FOLLOWERS.  BY THE WAY, THE KINDS OF STRESSORS STUDIED IN THE
GREATEST DEPTH INCLUDE MANY OF THOSE WHICH WOULD OCCUR IN AN OVERCROWDED
TRIBAL OR NATIONAL TERRITORY WHOSE RESOURCE BASE HAS BEEN TAPPED OUT.  THE
DOWNWARD SLIDE SUCH A GROUP WOULD TAKE IS ANALAGOUS TO THE SELF-DESTRUCT MODE
WHICH DISABLES AN INDIVIDUAL'S ABILITY TO PERCEIVE AND COMMUNICATE AFTER
EXPOSURE TO LONGTERM STRESS.  IN FACT, THAT INDIVIDUAL-LEVEL PHENOMENON IS ONE
OF THE FACTORS CONTRIBUTING TO THE GROUP-LEVEL FRAGMENTATION OF THE FLEEING
MODE.  Mathematical analyses reveal a
 narrow range separating stasis from chaos, a sufficiently narrow range to
 be designated a "phase transition."   
 
 APPLICATION TO PSYCHOPATHOLOGY
 A phase transition model seems promising for an understanding of rapid
 cycling as well as to other syndromes associated with brain damage,
 developmental disabilities, ADHD, mania, schizophrenia, and Alzheimers.  
 One of the model's contributions for our understanding of all of these
 disorders is the heightened probability that density of interconnection
 between competing neural mechanisms, including some of those involved in
 different psychological adaptations, is a key regulatory factor in the
 quality of the disorder. INTERESTING IDEA.  YOU'RE IMPLYING THAT THE
INSTABILITY AND CYCLING IS A PRODUCT OF A BREAKDOWN IN COMMUNICATION BETWEEN
NEURAL MECHANISMS AND AN INCREASE IN THEIR DISCOMMUNICATION.  THIS CERTAINLY
SQUARES WITH THE EXPERIENCE OF MANY FOLKS I'VE KNOWN, INCLUDING MYSELF.  IT
MATCHES UP WELL WITH THE CONFUSION AND INDECISION SURROUNDING SERIOUS
DEPRESSION.  IT ALSO SQUARES WITH THE MODEL OF SELF I WAS PROPOSING A MONTH OR
TWO AGO.  THIS WAS BASED ON JOHN SKOYLES' OBSERVATION THAT THE HYPOTHALAMUS
INITIALLY EVOLVED AS PART OF THE SMELL MECHANISM OF EARLY MAMMALS FORCED TO
LIVE A NIGHT LIFE, AND HENCE TO SNIFF THEIR WAY THROUGH THEIR TERRITORY, USING
SCENT TO BUILD A MENTAL MAP OF ITS GEOGRAPHY.  LATER THIS GEOGRAPHIC MAPPING
WAS BORROWED FOR ANOTHER PURPOSE--CATEGORIZING INPUT TO BE PLACED IN MEMORY,
POSITIONING EMOTIONAL AND SENSE DATA INTO A COHERENT MENTAL MAP.  WHEN WE LOSE
THE COHERENCE OF OUR MENTAL MAP, THE ONE WHICH GIVES US A CLEAR PICTURE OF
WHERE OUR FUTURE, OUR PRESENT, OUR DESIRES, AND OUR NEXT MOVES FIT INTO THE
LANDSCAPE OF OUR LIVES, WE LOSE A SENSE OF CONTROL AND ENTER A VIOLENTLY
UNCOMFORTABLE CHAOTIC STATE.  THIS SQUARES WITH THE VAST RESEARCH ON LOSS OF
CONTROL AND LEARNED HELPLESSNESS.  IRONICALLY, ONE OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS
STATE, IF SUSTAINED INDEFINITELY, IS DESTRUCTION OF HIPPOCAMPAL CELLS BY HIGH
INTERNAL DOSES OF CORTISOL.  THIS WOULD HELP INCREASE THE PROBABILITY OF
MOVING FROM MOMENTARY CRISIS TO PERPETUAL MENTAL ILLNESS, SINCE THE MAPMAKER
ON WHICH WE DEPEND FOR A SENSE OF WELLNESS IS ENFEEBLED.  BECAUSE THE
HIPPOCAMPUS IS CAPABLE OF GENERATING NEW CELLS AND DOES SO AS A MATTER OF
COURSE, I WONDER IF GIVING A PATIENT A CAREFULLY GRADUATED SERIES OF TASKS
WHOSE CONSTRUCTION NEARLY GUARANTEES THAT HE OR SHE WILL TRIUMPH OVER ALL OF
THEM, THUS REGAINING THE SENSE OF CONTROL, WOULD REVERSE THE HIPPOCAMPAL
DEGENERATION.  IT CERTAINLY WOULD REVERSE THE GLUCOCORTICOID FLOOD AND PRODUCE
A BETTER MODULATED RETURN OF AMINES AND SEROTONIN TO THE SYSTEM, GENERATING A
PHASE SHIFT OF THE KIND YOU'VE MENTIONED.  GREATER CALM, GREATER SENSE OF
MASTERY, INCREASE OF HARMONIC COMMUNICATION BETWEEN CEREBRAL NODES, AND,
ACCORDING TO RESEARCH ON EMOTIONS, BEHAVIOR AND PERCEPTION, A RETURN OF A
SENSE OF AN UNDERSTANDABLE AND HOPE-FILLED PERSONAL LANDSCAPE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, STUDIES OF EXTERNAL LOCUS OF CONTROL HAVE DEALT WITH
INDIVIDUALS WHOSE WORLDVIEWS GIVE THEM THE SENSE THAT EVERYTHING IS OUT OF
THEIR CONTROL AS A NATURAL STATE OF THINGS.  ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS IS NOT
SOMETHING THEY CAN RECTIFY, BUT SOMETHING IMPOSED ON THEM BY AUTHORITIES,
GODS, CURSES, DEMONS OR CONSPIRACIES OF THOSE ON HIGH.  SUCH WORLDVIEWS
DOMINATE IN COUNTRIES LIKE HAITI, WHERE CHAOS HAS BEEN A MATTER OF COURSE FOR
ROUGHLY 150 YEARS, PARTIALLY *BECAUSE* OF THE WORLD VIEW.  IN THIS CASE, THE
CULTURALLY PROVIDED MENTAL MAP IS ONE WHICH TOSSES THE INDIVIDUAL INTO THE
GLUCORTICOIDALLY OVERWHELMED STRESS STATE OR INTO THE RESIGNATION BEYOND IT AS
A MATTER OF COURSE.  RESIGNATION IS ANALOGOUS TO THE LAST PHASE OF LEARNED
HELPLESSNESS, IN WHICH A DOG OR OTHER EXPERIMENTAL ANIMAL SIMPLY LAYS DOWN ON
AN ELECTRIFIED GRID AND DOESN'T MOVE WHEN GIVEN A CLEAR WAY TO ESCAPE.  IN
THIS STATE, STRANGELY, CORTISOL LEVELS DROP.  WHICH MIGHT MEAN THE HIPPOCAMPAL
DETERIORATION ENDS--BUT RESEARCH AS YET DOESN'T SAY YES OR NO TO THIS
HIPPOCAMPAL POSSIBILITY.
 
 Kauffman's model suggests that rapid oscillation in emotional states is a
 function of interconnections between neurons rather than in the total
 number of neurons.    Analogue changes in the intensity of a reaction and
 smooth sequencing between opposed reactions is likely a function of the
 number of connections between competing cell assemblies.   Evolutionary,
 complex behaviors such as those associated with Executive Functions or
 creative thought may be a product of interconnection density rather than
 particular cell nuclei.   
 
 Disruption of axonal interplay by any means -- trauma or chemical shifts --
 should elicit more spastic movements, scrambled thoughts, and difficulty
 engaging and disengaging action sequences.  High degrees of response
 variability become a pessimistic diagnostic sign.
 
 TREATMENT
 Therapeutic interventions that encourage more dense interconnection should
 not only smooth execution of response sequences but encourage the operation
 of Executive Functions such as planning, waiting, task switching,
 analytical ability, and the ability to synthesize new motor sequences for
 problem solving.  MORE DATA FROM LOCUS OF CONTROL STUDIES: AN INDIVIDUAL WITH
AN EXTERNAL LOCUS OF CONTROL CAN BE TAUGHT HOW TO SUCCEED, CAN FOLLOW THE
INSTRUCTIONS AND ACHIEVE SUCCESS, CAN STILL FAIL TO ABSORB THE LESSON, AND CAN
RETURN AS SOON AS THE EXPERIMENT IS OVER TO A PATTERN OF RESIGNED FAILURE.  IN
THIS CASE, ENCOURAGING THE EXECUTIVE FUNCTIONS DOESN'T WORK--IT GOES AGAINST A
CULTURAL VIEW WHICH GIVES THE INDIVIDUAL HIS OR HER (DYSFUNCTIONAL) COHERENCE.
I KNOW OF NO EXPERIMENTS IN WHICH SOMEONE HAS ATTACKED THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM
AND ATTEMPTED TO ALTER THE WORLDVIEW, THOUGH STUDYING THE INTERVENTIONS OF
THOSE ARCH WORLDVIEW SHIFTERS, RELIGIOUS PROSELYTIZERS, MIGHT GIVE US A FEW
CLUES. 
 
BY THE WAY, THE IDEA OF BUILDING A LADDER OF SCALED TASKS DESIGNED SO THAT THE
SUBJECT CAN SUCCEED AT EVERYONE OF THEM IS NO FANTASY.  I USED TO BUILD SUCH
SUCCESSIONS WHEN DOING RESEARCH USING SKINNER'S "PROGRAMMED LEARNING"
TECHNIQUES.  ONCE YOU GOT THE HANG OF IT, YOU COULD CONSTRUCT A SERIES OF
ACTIVITIES WHICH LED EVER UPWARD AND IN WHICH NO ONE OF NORMAL INTELLIGENCE OR
ABOVE COULD POSSIBLY MISS A STEP.  THERE WAS POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT AT EVERY
LEVEL, AND AT THE END A SENSE OF MASTERY.  MY EXPERIMENT INVOLVED DESIGNING
SERIES OF THESE GUARANTEED UPWARD STEPS WHICH TAUGHT DOUGLAS COLLEGE GIRLS
ELEMENTARY CONCEPTS OF ELECTRICAL CIRCUITRY IN HALF AN HOUR, AND SUCCEEDED
*EVERY* TIME.  THIS WAS DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE EXPERIMENTAL SUBJECTS HAD NO
INTEREST IN ELECTRICAL CIRCUITRY IN THE LEAST.  YET EVERY ONE OF THEM MASTERED
THE BASICS.
 The sensed attribute of richer connections between logic units is a wider
 range of indecision, a wider range in which the words "maybe," "often,"
 "usually," or "seldom" apply.   These shifts are likely regardless of
 whether the logic units are molecular, chemical, neuronal, or electrical.  
 They will apply whether occurring within a single organism or within a
 flock and whether the signal between logic units is an action potential or
 the sensory impact of a conspecific.
 
 Therapeutic interventions that encourage more crosstalk should not only
 smooth execution of response sequences but encourage the operation of
 Executive Functions such as planning, waiting, task switching, analytical
 ability, and the ability to synthesize new motor sequences.   Traditional
 interventions such as learning, anxiety reduction, cognitive therapy, and
 certain classes of medication likely help move us out of stasis or
 stereotypy and towards Maybe, the center of a phase transition.  Even
 exercise EXERCISE IS A GREAT WAY TO GIVE AN INDIVIDUAL AN EASY SENSE OF
CONTROL.  WHEN AT WITS END, ONE CAN ALWAYS CONTROL ONE' S OWN BODY.  and
dietary shifts could help increase crosstalk between our
 different psychological adaptations and slow the automatic execution of any
 one of them.
 
 There are many instances where crosstalk within the client is insufficient.
   It becomes important then to establish crosstalk (alliances) between the
 client and other people.  THIS IS A NECESSITY JUST FOR BASIC MENTAL HEALTH.
SEE ALL THE RESEARCH WHICH HAS EMERGED FROM PSYCHONEUROIMMUNOLOGY.  A PERSON'S
POSITION WITHIN A SOCIAL WEB HAS A HUGE IMPACT ON THE NEUROENDOCRINOLOGICAL
STATES WHICH EMERGE AS EMOTIONS AND AS PHYSICAL HEALTH.  Howard
----------
Howard Bloom
(founder: International Paleopsychology Project; member: New York Academy of
Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, American
Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and
Evolution Society, European Sociobiological Society; board member: Epic of
Evolution Society)

705 President Street
Brooklyn, NY 11215

phone 718 622 2278
fax 718 398 2551
e-mail howard@paleopsych.org
for two chapters from 
The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of
History,
see www.bookworld.com/lucifer




From:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj"  9-MAY-1998 00:53:20.46
To:	IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net"  "Bill Campbell", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Systemic Therapy

I have observed that most behavioural problems exhibited by dogs are caused
by the behaviours of the owner(s).
Many, or perhaps most,  of these do not have an allelomimetic basis.  In the
most destructive of the disorders
 the dog exhibits an array of abnormal behaviours that approximate models of
schizophrenia.  The associated factor is commonly inconsistent treatment of
the dog by the owner.  The most severe cases, in my experience, are those
dogs which suffer from an owner that treats the dog in one way but displays
conflicting body language signals.  If the dog and owner are observed during
an interaction it is common for the dog to "question" the dominance status
of the other pack member.  (the dog and the owner(s) constitute the pack
from the dog's viewpoint).   When the owner's body language signals that the
dog is dominant, and the dog responds accordingly and is punished for it the
dog is confused.  When such confusion is combined with response
inconsistency (eg. the dog's behaviour is ignored at one time and punished
severely at another) the result is virtual psychoses.  If there appears to
be no pattern (as far as the dog is concerned) for the owners responses
(these may range from ignoring the dog to punishing the dog to praising the
dog for a particular behaviour) the deterioration of the dog's emotional
stability is extremely rapid.   I find an analogy in human behaviour in
which the individual has no control of the factors that affect work or life
style and is precipitated into acute clinical depression.  This appears to
be all too common with casual dog owners and the combination progresses
quickly from behaviour problems to a terminal trip to the vet or a dog
shelter.    Cj

 -----Original Message-----
From: Bill Campbell <billcamp@cdsnet.net>
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca <applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca>
Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 9:18 PM
Subject: Systemic Therapy


>D.B. Cameron's poignant comments about the human role in animal behavior
and
>treating problems brought to mind that I've been pushing this weighty
burden
>uphill for many years. My original mentor, [1967-1971] Dare Miller, was the
>first pet behaviorist to my knowledge who recognized it and designed
>remedial programs around it.
>
>I thought you all might be insterested if the following excerpt from our
>current newsletter.
>
>Bill Campbell
>
>(snip)
>We've often cited the effects that an owner's behavior plays in creating
>problems in dogs, from highly emotional homecomings and departures and
>destructive behavior, barking etc., to aggressive displays toward other
dogs
>and dog fighting. The inter-species effects of allelomimetic phenomena has
>received too little attention from behavioral scientists. However, thanks
to
>a subscriber who browses the internet, the following 1,780 year-old account
>by Apollonius Tyana during his travels from Greece in the 3rd century
>indicates that science has yet to catch up with the common wisdom.
>
>ANCIENT USE OF IMITATIVE BEHAVIOR
>"On Nut Gathering & Ancient Ecologies ...
>They say that from this point they crossed the part of the Caucasus which
>stretches down to the Red Sea... But on the steeps of this mountain - there
>grow very lofty frankincense trees, as well as many other species, for
>example the pepper trees which are cultivated by the apes. Nor did they
>neglect to record the look and appearance of this tree, and I will repeat
>exactly their account of it.
>
>The pepper tree resembles in general the willow of the Greeks, and
>particularly in regard to the berry of the fruit; and it grows in steep
>ravines where it cannot be got at by men, and where a community of apes is
>said to live in the recesses of the mountain and in any of its glens; and
>these apes are held in great esteem by the Indians, because they harvest
the
>pepper for them, and they (the Indians) drive the lions off them with dogs
>and weapons. For the lion, when he is sick, attacks the ape in order to get
>a remedy, for the flesh of the ape stays the course of his disease; and he
>attacks it when he is grown (too) old to get a meal, for the lions when
they
>are past hunting stags and wild boars gobble up the apes, and husband for
>their pursuit whatever strength they have left. The inhabitants of the
>country, however, are not disposed to allow this, because they regard these
>animals as their benefactors, and so make war against the lions in behalf
of
>them.
>
>For this is the way they go to work in collecting the pepper; the Indians
go
>up to the lower trees and pluck off the fruit, and they make little round
>shallow pits around the trees, into which they collect the pepper,
>carelessly tossing it in, as if it had no value and was of no serious use
to
>mankind. Then the monkeys mark their actions from above out of their
>fastnesses, and when the night comes on they imitate the action of the
>Indians, and twisting off the twigs of the trees, they bring and throw them
>into the pits in question; then the Indians at daybreak carry away the
heaps
>of the spice which they have thus got without any trouble, and indeed
during
>the repose of slumber."
>Clever, those ancient Indians. This is, so far, the earliest record we've
>seen of inter-species use of allelomimetic behavior.
>
>From: The Life of Apollonius of Tyana Philostratus {220 AD}
>Found on the Web at - http://www.magna.com.au/~prfbrown/atyana24.html
(snip)
>
>


From:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com"  "James F. Brody"  9-MAY-1998 06:36:01.24
To:	IN%"hbe-request@a3.com"  "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com"  "Paleopsych"
CC:	
Subj:	Alllied List_Serves

Good morning!

The notion of a "clinical sociobiology" encompasses more than the usual m=
ix
involved in health insurance and our current reimbursement system.   =


Related disciplines include naturopathy, anthropology (social, paleo, and=

Darwinian), marriage and family therapists, social workers, chiropractors=
,
and theologians.

I would appreciate knowing of list_serves for these and for similar group=
s
that enter into healing alliances with the general public.

Thank you,

Jim Brody

From:	IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net"  "Robin Walker"  9-MAY-1998 10:54:33.14
To:	IN%"arioncr@mindspring.com"  "'Chris Redenbach'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Shaving the Hydra !

      Zeus !

      No sooner do I shave the many headed Hydra down to three 'Caputs'
      with the parsimonifying Occam's Razor than up she sprouts with
      near Forty new heads!

      Robin :-)

      Splendid "examples" of the heterogeneity of aggression in all its
      forms.  Well done Circe Redenbach! Though I risk exchanging me
      walkers for trotters! 

     What? What?
   

-----Original Message-----
From:	Chris Redenbach [SMTP:arioncr@  mindspring.com]
Sent:	08 May 1998 21:56
To:	applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject:	aggression
Aggression and Dogs: Its Causes and Some Cures
copyright Chris Redenbach 1998

I. General Category: Defensive Aggression
A. Self-defense: Response to a stimulus that, in combination with
historical and physical elements, causes the animal to feel the need to
defend itself
1.Pain induced: an animal already in pain anticipates the need for self
protection
2.Reactive due to basic "nervous system" type
3.Learned after exposure to threatening situations (correction pushed too
far, excessive dominance, repeated application of painful stimuli)
B. Defense of territory: Establishment and later defense of territory is a
normal activity. Our breeds may retain this drive to differing degrees.
C. Defense of possessions: Possession is 9/10ths of the law amongst dogs as
well. Observers feel that the "ownership" drive can often supersede the
individual's standing in the group.
D. Defense of group members: Normal when the group is confronted by
perceived threat from outside the social group. 

II. General Category: Social or Competitive Aggression 
A. Dominance Aggression
1. Already dominant animal reinforcing that dominance by 
a. Punishing another who has broken some social rule such as invasion of
personal space or "rude" behavior
b. Thwarting attempts by others to achieve higher status 
c. Ritual displays of dominance for role maintenance
2. Animal trying to improve in social status by
a. Direct challenges to higher ranking individuals
b. Displays of aggression against lower ranking individuals for the express
purpose of creating a dominance display
3. Role identification and affirmation towards outsiders joining the group.
4. Play passing acceptable levels

B. Juvenile Social and Competitive Aggression
1. Sibling rivalries for litter dominance
2. Competition for toys, etc.
3. Escalations of play

C. Sexual 
1. Between partners 
2. Between rivals

D. Acquisitive
1. Territory
2. Possessions
3. Status (see social)

General Category: Bully/Scapegoat Aggression
A. The Bully: And animal whose drive towards social violence includes
extremes of "out of balance or proportion" causes abnormally high levels of
low threshold violence
B. The Scapegoat: An animal who is regularly victimized by one or more
other group members and somehow manages to be frequently in harms way for
repetition of this (I suspect that such animals often display low key
passive aggression intentions that are picked up on by the bullies and this
remotivates the bully aggression.)
C. The Descendants: It is not unusual for the pups of victims to also be
victimized

General Category: Learned Aggression
A. Success at early attempts at threatening and overt aggressive acts
B. The result of either intentional or unintentional training or
coincidental environmental stimuli which call upon any of the drives or
motivations that elicit natural forms of threat and/or contact aggression:
defense mechanisms, competition, dominance, extreme play

General Category: Redirected Aggression
Occurs when the animal cannot vent his legitimately motivated aggression on
the appropriate object and instead redirects it to something or someone
else. This is a standard category of conflict or thwarting behavior common
to all higher species.

General Category: Idiopathic Aggression
The result of unknown motivators which may include internal chemical 
imbalances or organic disease states

Part II (partial)
Encouraging and Discouraging Aggressive Behavior in Dogs

In all cases relating to dog aggression, the trainer should have an
understanding of what forms of aggression there are, under what conditions
they are likely to occur, how to recognize the early signs of them
(intention movements), and how to either augment them, diminish them or
change their motivation. 

Dogs use a highly expressive language of movements using spatial elements
of area, proximity and elevation, speed or lack thereof, body postures,
individual expressive elements of various body parts, temporal aspects of
display and vocalizations. Occasionally they will also use props like
objects, toys, artificially created spaces. The specific movements are
basically innate with some individual elements of style and they also build
some social customs that can be unique to a specific group. 

A breed can have tendencies that are typical of that breed. I find that
Bouviers are highly vocal in their interactions. Their movements tend to be
big expressive movements, they tend to come primarily from the categories
of social dominance/submission, with a bit of prey (which is often
restricted to actual live prey unless the tendency as a whole is encouraged
by the owner by playing or herding activities), some object playing with
artifacts, and a fair amount of possession of spaces, elevations and
objects. They are often quite confrontational at some level, including play
games. 

Bouviers can be easily misunderstood by dogs of other breeds who read their
body language as very pushy and potentially threatening. This is
undoubtedly a plus in herding and protection situations, however, it can
present a problem in social situations due to the interpretation of
feedback signals. The innocent Bouvier can mean no harm, but change its
mind and become defensive after observing the reaction to its greeting.
They are also often misunderstood from a motivational standpoint by
trainers in general and helpers in the protection sports.
 
(excerpted from part two on training and behavior modification)

Most forms of aggression include some degree of fear causing some level of
defensiveness. A minority of forms of aggression are almost totally without
fear. The degree of fear involved will be a large determinant in the style
of behavior modification most appropriate.
Weak dogs need techniques that combine confidence building, strict but fair
and predictable leadership, and desensitization.
Strong dogs (aggression with little or no fear) require methods that
gradually show the dog that life can be more rewarding working in a team
with a human; that humans have mysterious sources of strength and control
that make them unpredictably able to dominate the environment; that humans
lead them into activities that give them an outlet for aggressive energies.

REMEMBER THAT DOMINANCE AND AGGRESSION ARE NOT DIRTY WORDS, THEY ARE JUST
ATTITUDES ON A CONTINUUM AND CAN BE MODIFIED 

Chris Redenbach                          
  

From:	IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net"  "Robin Walker"  9-MAY-1998 13:02:33.68
To:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "'Cj'", IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net"  "Bill Campbell", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Homo sapiens problematicans

      Now all this is absolutely true and "It and All About It" for
      dog behaviour.

      There are those of course who believe that "Dominance Aggression"
      is a nosological entity (I have heard one eminent multidegreed  
      person call it a 'disease like diabetes is a disease').

      The belief is re-inforced by the apparent success of a Prescription
      called Dominance Reduction  by Ten Steps. The disease must
      exist 'coz a medicine with the same name cures it -so there!

      Whereas us sceptics and Occamites have for sometime thought
      that the implementation of around ten disciplined and consistent
      behaviours (however ethologically daft some of them may be) 
      impacts upon the dog mightily. "Gosh you've changed! And you
      are predictable thank goodness. OK you do the Leadership thing
      and I will do the scratching and snoozing"

      Robin 

-----Original Message-----
From:	Cj [SMTP:cwalt@ime.net]
Sent:	09 May 1998 07:53
To:	Bill Campbell; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject:	Re: Systemic Therapy

I have observed that most behavioural problems exhibited by dogs are caused
by the behaviours of the owner(s).
Many, or perhaps most,  of these do not have an allelomimetic basis.  In the
most destructive of the disorders
 the dog exhibits an array of abnormal behaviours that approximate models of
schizophrenia.  The associated factor is commonly inconsistent treatment of
the dog by the owner.  The most severe cases, in my experience, are those
dogs which suffer from an owner that treats the dog in one way but displays
conflicting body language signals.  If the dog and owner are observed during
an interaction it is common for the dog to "question" the dominance status
of the other pack member.  (the dog and the owner(s) constitute the pack
from the dog's viewpoint).   When the owner's body language signals that the
dog is dominant, and the dog responds accordingly and is punished for it the
dog is confused.  When such confusion is combined with response
inconsistency (eg. the dog's behaviour is ignored at one time and punished
severely at another) the result is virtual psychoses.  If there appears to
be no pattern (as far as the dog is concerned) for the owners responses
(these may range from ignoring the dog to punishing the dog to praising the
dog for a particular behaviour) the deterioration of the dog's emotional
stability is extremely rapid.   I find an analogy in human behaviour in
which the individual has no control of the factors that affect work or life
style and is precipitated into acute clinical depression.  This appears to
be all too common with casual dog owners and the combination progresses
quickly from behaviour problems to a terminal trip to the vet or a dog
shelter.    Cj

 -----Original Message-----
From: Bill Campbell <billcamp@cdsnet.net>
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca <applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca>
Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 9:18 PM
Subject: Systemic Therapy


>D.B. Cameron's poignant comments about the human role in animal behavior
and
>treating problems brought to mind that I've been pushing this weighty
burden
>uphill for many years. My original mentor, [1967-1971] Dare Miller, was the
>first pet behaviorist to my knowledge who recognized it and designed
>remedial programs around it.
>
>I thought you all might be insterested if the following excerpt from our
>current newsletter.
>
>Bill Campbell
>
>(snip)
>We've often cited the effects that an owner's behavior plays in creating
>problems in dogs, from highly emotional homecomings and departures and
>destructive behavior, barking etc., to aggressive displays toward other
dogs
>and dog fighting. The inter-species effects of allelomimetic phenomena has
>received too little attention from behavioral scientists. However, thanks
to
>a subscriber who browses the internet, the following 1,780 year-old account
>by Apollonius Tyana during his travels from Greece in the 3rd century
>indicates that science has yet to catch up with the common wisdom.
>
>ANCIENT USE OF IMITATIVE BEHAVIOR
>"On Nut Gathering & Ancient Ecologies ...
>They say that from this point they crossed the part of the Caucasus which
>stretches down to the Red Sea... But on the steeps of this mountain - there
>grow very lofty frankincense trees, as well as many other species, for
>example the pepper trees which are cultivated by the apes. Nor did they
>neglect to record the look and appearance of this tree, and I will repeat
>exactly their account of it.
>
>The pepper tree resembles in general the willow of the Greeks, and
>particularly in regard to the berry of the fruit; and it grows in steep
>ravines where it cannot be got at by men, and where a community of apes is
>said to live in the recesses of the mountain and in any of its glens; and
>these apes are held in great esteem by the Indians, because they harvest
the
>pepper for them, and they (the Indians) drive the lions off them with dogs
>and weapons. For the lion, when he is sick, attacks the ape in order to get
>a remedy, for the flesh of the ape stays the course of his disease; and he
>attacks it when he is grown (too) old to get a meal, for the lions when
they
>are past hunting stags and wild boars gobble up the apes, and husband for
>their pursuit whatever strength they have left. The inhabitants of the
>country, however, are not disposed to allow this, because they regard these
>animals as their benefactors, and so make war against the lions in behalf
of
>them.
>
>For this is the way they go to work in collecting the pepper; the Indians
go
>up to the lower trees and pluck off the fruit, and they make little round
>shallow pits around the trees, into which they collect the pepper,
>carelessly tossing it in, as if it had no value and was of no serious use
to
>mankind. Then the monkeys mark their actions from above out of their
>fastnesses, and when the night comes on they imitate the action of the
>Indians, and twisting off the twigs of the trees, they bring and throw them
>into the pits in question; then the Indians at daybreak carry away the
heaps
>of the spice which they have thus got without any trouble, and indeed
during
>the repose of slumber."
>Clever, those ancient Indians. This is, so far, the earliest record we've
>seen of inter-species use of allelomimetic behavior.
>
>From: The Life of Apollonius of Tyana Philostratus {220 AD}
>Found on the Web at - http://www.magna.com.au/~prfbrown/atyana24.html
(snip)
>
>


From:	IN%"rondog@btinternet.com"  "Jonathan Bowen"  9-MAY-1998 16:58:20.30
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Homo sapiens problematicans

Good points regarding consistency, and the lack of it in human behaviour.
Wolves use ritualised forms in communication.

Domestication has not rid the dog of the need for ritualised communication,
but changes in human society mean that, in the western world* at least,
there has been an almost complete loss of overt ritual in social
relationships.
We do not value ritual or social convention anymore, and are not inclined to
use them in our relationships with people or animals.
Our behaviour is therefore much more unpredictable.

Dogs presumably still base their communication on ritualised forms related
to those of the ancestors shared with modern wolves; but they are flexible
enough to make use of new learned ones if they are suitable.

The resolution of many behaviour problems involves the creation of
acceptable forms of ritualised communication between the owner and dog. As
Robin says, the owner learns and applies these rituals (such asn in the 'ten
steps' and thereby meets the need for consistency and ritual on the part of
the dog.

Treatments for status related and other problems fit this model.
I believe that the successful use of associative learning in behaviour
problems is at least in part due to fact that it offers an opportunity to
train the owner to use more ritualised and consistent communication.

Consistency is an aspect of ritual, but I think that ritual as a broader
term includes more of the features needed to describe the character of
communication and behaviour that dogs most readily respond to.

Or maybe it is late and night and I am rambling.

Jon

*has anyone compared rates of behaviour problems in different cultures?


>      Now all this is absolutely true and "It and All About It" for
>      dog behaviour.
>
>      There are those of course who believe that "Dominance Aggression"
>      is a nosological entity (I have heard one eminent multidegreed
>      person call it a 'disease like diabetes is a disease').
>
>      The belief is re-inforced by the apparent success of a Prescription
>      called Dominance Reduction  by Ten Steps. The disease must
>      exist 'coz a medicine with the same name cures it -so there!
>
>      Whereas us sceptics and Occamites have for sometime thought
>      that the implementation of around ten disciplined and consistent
>      behaviours (however ethologically daft some of them may be)
>      impacts upon the dog mightily. "Gosh you've changed! And you
>      are predictable thank goodness. OK you do the Leadership thing
>      and I will do the scratching and snoozing"
>
>      Robin
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Cj [SMTP:cwalt@ime.net]
>Sent: 09 May 1998 07:53
>To: Bill Campbell; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
>Subject: Re: Systemic Therapy
>
>I have observed that most behavioural problems exhibited by dogs are caused
>by the behaviours of the owner(s).
>Many, or perhaps most,  of these do not have an allelomimetic basis.  In
the
>most destructive of the disorders
> the dog exhibits an array of abnormal behaviours that approximate models
of
>schizophrenia.  The associated factor is commonly inconsistent treatment of
>the dog by the owner.  The most severe cases, in my experience, are those
>dogs which suffer from an owner that treats the dog in one way but displays
>conflicting body language signals.  If the dog and owner are observed
during
>an interaction it is common for the dog to "question" the dominance status
>of the other pack member.  (the dog and the owner(s) constitute the pack
>from the dog's viewpoint).   When the owner's body language signals that
the
>dog is dominant, and the dog responds accordingly and is punished for it
the
>dog is confused.  When such confusion is combined with response
>inconsistency (eg. the dog's behaviour is ignored at one time and punished
>severely at another) the result is virtual psychoses.  If there appears to
>be no pattern (as far as the dog is concerned) for the owners responses
>(these may range from ignoring the dog to punishing the dog to praising the
>dog for a particular behaviour) the deterioration of the dog's emotional
>stability is extremely rapid.   I find an analogy in human behaviour in
>which the individual has no control of the factors that affect work or life
>style and is precipitated into acute clinical depression.  This appears to
>be all too common with casual dog owners and the combination progresses
>quickly from behaviour problems to a terminal trip to the vet or a dog
>shelter.    Cj
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Campbell <billcamp@cdsnet.net>
>To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca <applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca>
>Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 9:18 PM
>Subject: Systemic Therapy
>
>
>>D.B. Cameron's poignant comments about the human role in animal behavior
>and
>>treating problems brought to mind that I've been pushing this weighty
>burden
>>uphill for many years. My original mentor, [1967-1971] Dare Miller, was
the
>>first pet behaviorist to my knowledge who recognized it and designed
>>remedial programs around it.
>>
>>I thought you all might be insterested if the following excerpt from our
>>current newsletter.
>>
>>Bill Campbell
>>
>>(snip)
>>We've often cited the effects that an owner's behavior plays in creating
>>problems in dogs, from highly emotional homecomings and departures and
>>destructive behavior, barking etc., to aggressive displays toward other
>dogs
>>and dog fighting. The inter-species effects of allelomimetic phenomena has
>>received too little attention from behavioral scientists. However, thanks
>to
>>a subscriber who browses the internet, the following 1,780 year-old
account
>>by Apollonius Tyana during his travels from Greece in the 3rd century
>>indicates that science has yet to catch up with the common wisdom.
>>
>>ANCIENT USE OF IMITATIVE BEHAVIOR
>>"On Nut Gathering & Ancient Ecologies ...
>>They say that from this point they crossed the part of the Caucasus which
>>stretches down to the Red Sea... But on the steeps of this mountain -
there
>>grow very lofty frankincense trees, as well as many other species, for
>>example the pepper trees which are cultivated by the apes. Nor did they
>>neglect to record the look and appearance of this tree, and I will repeat
>>exactly their account of it.
>>
>>The pepper tree resembles in general the willow of the Greeks, and
>>particularly in regard to the berry of the fruit; and it grows in steep
>>ravines where it cannot be got at by men, and where a community of apes is
>>said to live in the recesses of the mountain and in any of its glens; and
>>these apes are held in great esteem by the Indians, because they harvest
>the
>>pepper for them, and they (the Indians) drive the lions off them with dogs
>>and weapons. For the lion, when he is sick, attacks the ape in order to
get
>>a remedy, for the flesh of the ape stays the course of his disease; and he
>>attacks it when he is grown (too) old to get a meal, for the lions when
>they
>>are past hunting stags and wild boars gobble up the apes, and husband for
>>their pursuit whatever strength they have left. The inhabitants of the
>>country, however, are not disposed to allow this, because they regard
these
>>animals as their benefactors, and so make war against the lions in behalf
>of
>>them.
>>
>>For this is the way they go to work in collecting the pepper; the Indians
>go
>>up to the lower trees and pluck off the fruit, and they make little round
>>shallow pits around the trees, into which they collect the pepper,
>>carelessly tossing it in, as if it had no value and was of no serious use
>to
>>mankind. Then the monkeys mark their actions from above out of their
>>fastnesses, and when the night comes on they imitate the action of the
>>Indians, and twisting off the twigs of the trees, they bring and throw
them
>>into the pits in question; then the Indians at daybreak carry away the
>heaps
>>of the spice which they have thus got without any trouble, and indeed
>during
>>the repose of slumber."
>>Clever, those ancient Indians. This is, so far, the earliest record we've
>>seen of inter-species use of allelomimetic behavior.
>>
>>From: The Life of Apollonius of Tyana Philostratus {220 AD}
>>Found on the Web at - http://www.magna.com.au/~prfbrown/atyana24.html
>(snip)

From:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj"  9-MAY-1998 23:56:22.76
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Aggression

    I have serious doubts that aggression and dominance in canids should be
linked.  In almost 30 years of observation I have catalogued a great array
of dominance signals and dominance behaviours as well as a large data base
on canine aggression.  In sum I find little or no aggression in dominance
signals and in terms of aggressive or agonistic behaviours I do not find any
consistent linkage to pack dominance.   In an evolutionary context mammalian
dominance systems have developed signals, displays, contests and a number of
other rituals to avoid direct and potentially lethal aggressive
interactions.  In terms of reproductive fitness and survival, the evolution
of rituals have enabled some measure of population stability whereas
aggression is markedly self-limiting.
In feral dog groups and wolf packs dominance is a variable and it can shift
from day to day.  A low order bitch that breeds with the alpha male will
experience a transient rise in the dominance array but this is lost at, or
about, the time of weaning.  In dog-human dominance interactions the
question of dominance is almost a daily exchange of signals and
dominance switching on a short term basis is the rule rather than the
exception in the relationships between hunting dogs and their owners.
Indeed, given this observed tendency for short term and transient shifts in
dominance status there is remarkably little evidence of fighting between
conspecifics that are members of the same pack.  An even more common
observation is that a female relatively low in the pack order will readily
threaten or attack a male for space infringment or food stealing.  (Males
are inhibited from attacking bitches regardless of the dominance order.)
A human can beat a dog into submission but cannot establish dominance with
force or the infliction of pain but body language will establish a dominance
relationship very rapidly.  Humans tend to link aggression with dominance at
a superficial level but anyone with a military or academic background must
appreciate that dominance relationships in humans are established and
maintained without aggression.  (fear yes, aggression no)
    I concede that violation of canine dominance protocols will trigger
aggressive interactions but in almost every instance the cause of protocol
violations is human intervention.  A behavioural substitution of aggression
and dominance has been established by selective breeding and some lines of
terriers and fighting dogs have been developed that do not respond
appropriately to common dominance signals nor do they appear to understand
them.  With selective breeding it appears that aggression can be substituted
for dominance behaviours but the consequence is that pack behaviours are
weakened or eliminated and these dogs do not appear capable of some forms of
group socialization.
Cj

From:	IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net"  "Robin Walker" 10-MAY-1998 00:41:26.31
To:	IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu"  "'D.B. Cameron, DVM'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

      There have been 3 or 4 cases of baby killing in the UK that were
       reported in the national newspapers over a period of 20 years.
       The babies were in carrycots and left on the floor or on a bed.
       As I recall the killers were all terrier or terrier crossbreeds. 

       My theory is that Scott and Fuller's work  (1965) on the 
       "low latency to aggression among con-specifics" could be
        extended to investigate a similar "attack speed" in terriers
        exploring burrows and confronting bright staring eyes.
  
        Not all that difficult to set up (not with carrycots and babies
        of course) with just a tunnel and a pair of mounted glass 
        eyes and gosh  - controls and things!

        (I freely donate the idea to any academic miller searching for
        grist to fill the ever-growing line of postgraduate sacks)

        Robin  
 

-----Original Message-----
From:	D.B. Cameron [SMTP:aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu]
Sent:	08 May 1998 22:25
To:	applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject:	Re: Types of aggression

Reply to message from rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk of Wed, 06 May
>
>>From the point of view of someone trying to "sell" rescue dogs to the
>public I would be delighted if there was a clear message to potential dog
>owners/adopters from ethologists that predation is NOT anything to do with
>aggression. It is often very hard to get over to otherwise reasonable
>people that a predatory, rabbit-chasing dog may not have the slightest
>tendency to be other than friendly and gentle with people and other dogs. 
>
>----------------------------------------
>My opinions are my own Rosemary Rodd <rr25@cam.ac.uk> 
>               01223 335029
>
>
>
	On the other hand, a high percentage of incidents where dogs 
kill newborn human infants very shortly after they are brought home from 
the hospital, on investigation, are attributed to traditional predatory 
aggression. That is, the dog who has not yet been introduced to and accepted 
the infant as part of its "pack", hears and sees this little squirming 
thing and assaults it as a beagle assaults a rabbit.


 

--
    ^    ^      DBC   (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM)
   < \  / >     Animal Behavior Clinic		440/826-0013
     !  !       18250 Main Street		Fx: 234-3407
      ..        Middleburg Hts., OH 44130


From:	IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net"  "Robin Walker" 10-MAY-1998 00:41:55.00
To:	IN%"rondog@btinternet.com"  "'Jonathan Bowen'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Homo sapiens problematicans

      YES!  Of course!

      What I know of traditional schooling, army life, Free Masonry,
      childrearing by Nanny (and the dinnergong), all cries 'yes'.

      The Practice pack (down to 4 from a peak of 7) here, has its 
      definite patterns of behaviour regarding sleeping and patrolling 
      the various rooms and corridors of an 8 AM to 7 PM day. 

      I am tempted to graft a Noldus set-up into the existing
      clutter of PCs, VCRs, security recorder and cameras. 
      ridiculous cost for the blindingly obvious.

      The instruction and disciplining of my  Lab puppy was
      a joy to badly observe and faultily interpret as he progressed
      from 7 weeks to his current status at 2 years.
  
      -----Original Message-----
From:	Jonathan Bowen [SMTP:rondog@btinternet.com]
Sent:	09 May 1998 23:54
To:	Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject:	Re: Homo sapiens problematicans

Good points regarding consistency, and the lack of it in human behaviour.
Wolves use ritualised forms in communication.

Domestication has not rid the dog of the need for ritualised communication,
but changes in human society mean that, in the western world* at least,
there has been an almost complete loss of overt ritual in social
relationships.
We do not value ritual or social convention anymore, and are not inclined to
use them in our relationships with people or animals.
Our behaviour is therefore much more unpredictable.

Dogs presumably still base their communication on ritualised forms related
to those of the ancestors shared with modern wolves; but they are flexible
enough to make use of new learned ones if they are suitable.

The resolution of many behaviour problems involves the creation of
acceptable forms of ritualised communication between the owner and dog. As
Robin says, the owner learns and applies these rituals (such asn in the 'ten
steps' and thereby meets the need for consistency and ritual on the part of
the dog.

Treatments for status related and other problems fit this model.
I believe that the successful use of associative learning in behaviour
problems is at least in part due to fact that it offers an opportunity to
train the owner to use more ritualised and consistent communication.

Consistency is an aspect of ritual, but I think that ritual as a broader
term includes more of the features needed to describe the character of
communication and behaviour that dogs most readily respond to.

Or maybe it is late and night and I am rambling.

Jon

*has anyone compared rates of behaviour problems in different cultures?


>      Now all this is absolutely true and "It and All About It" for
>      dog behaviour.
>
>      There are those of course who believe that "Dominance Aggression"
>      is a nosological entity (I have heard one eminent multidegreed
>      person call it a 'disease like diabetes is a disease').
>
>      The belief is re-inforced by the apparent success of a Prescription
>      called Dominance Reduction  by Ten Steps. The disease must
>      exist 'coz a medicine with the same name cures it -so there!
>
>      Whereas us sceptics and Occamites have for sometime thought
>      that the implementation of around ten disciplined and consistent
>      behaviours (however ethologically daft some of them may be)
>      impacts upon the dog mightily. "Gosh you've changed! And you
>      are predictable thank goodness. OK you do the Leadership thing
>      and I will do the scratching and snoozing"
>
>      Robin
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Cj [SMTP:cwalt@ime.net]
>Sent: 09 May 1998 07:53
>To: Bill Campbell; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
>Subject: Re: Systemic Therapy
>
>I have observed that most behavioural problems exhibited by dogs are caused
>by the behaviours of the owner(s).
>Many, or perhaps most,  of these do not have an allelomimetic basis.  In
the
>most destructive of the disorders
> the dog exhibits an array of abnormal behaviours that approximate models
of
>schizophrenia.  The associated factor is commonly inconsistent treatment of
>the dog by the owner.  The most severe cases, in my experience, are those
>dogs which suffer from an owner that treats the dog in one way but displays
>conflicting body language signals.  If the dog and owner are observed
during
>an interaction it is common for the dog to "question" the dominance status
>of the other pack member.  (the dog and the owner(s) constitute the pack
>from the dog's viewpoint).   When the owner's body language signals that
the
>dog is dominant, and the dog responds accordingly and is punished for it
the
>dog is confused.  When such confusion is combined with response
>inconsistency (eg. the dog's behaviour is ignored at one time and punished
>severely at another) the result is virtual psychoses.  If there appears to
>be no pattern (as far as the dog is concerned) for the owners responses
>(these may range from ignoring the dog to punishing the dog to praising the
>dog for a particular behaviour) the deterioration of the dog's emotional
>stability is extremely rapid.   I find an analogy in human behaviour in
>which the individual has no control of the factors that affect work or life
>style and is precipitated into acute clinical depression.  This appears to
>be all too common with casual dog owners and the combination progresses
>quickly from behaviour problems to a terminal trip to the vet or a dog
>shelter.    Cj
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Campbell <billcamp@cdsnet.net>
>To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca <applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca>
>Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 9:18 PM
>Subject: Systemic Therapy
>
>
>>D.B. Cameron's poignant comments about the human role in animal behavior
>and
>>treating problems brought to mind that I've been pushing this weighty
>burden
>>uphill for many years. My original mentor, [1967-1971] Dare Miller, was
the
>>first pet behaviorist to my knowledge who recognized it and designed
>>remedial programs around it.
>>
>>I thought you all might be insterested if the following excerpt from our
>>current newsletter.
>>
>>Bill Campbell
>>
>>(snip)
>>We've often cited the effects that an owner's behavior plays in creating
>>problems in dogs, from highly emotional homecomings and departures and
>>destructive behavior, barking etc., to aggressive displays toward other
>dogs
>>and dog fighting. The inter-species effects of allelomimetic phenomena has
>>received too little attention from behavioral scientists. However, thanks
>to
>>a subscriber who browses the internet, the following 1,780 year-old
account
>>by Apollonius Tyana during his travels from Greece in the 3rd century
>>indicates that science has yet to catch up with the common wisdom.
>>
>>ANCIENT USE OF IMITATIVE BEHAVIOR
>>"On Nut Gathering & Ancient Ecologies ...
>>They say that from this point they crossed the part of the Caucasus which
>>stretches down to the Red Sea... But on the steeps of this mountain -
there
>>grow very lofty frankincense trees, as well as many other species, for
>>example the pepper trees which are cultivated by the apes. Nor did they
>>neglect to record the look and appearance of this tree, and I will repeat
>>exactly their account of it.
>>
>>The pepper tree resembles in general the willow of the Greeks, and
>>particularly in regard to the berry of the fruit; and it grows in steep
>>ravines where it cannot be got at by men, and where a community of apes is
>>said to live in the recesses of the mountain and in any of its glens; and
>>these apes are held in great esteem by the Indians, because they harvest
>the
>>pepper for them, and they (the Indians) drive the lions off them with dogs
>>and weapons. For the lion, when he is sick, attacks the ape in order to
get
>>a remedy, for the flesh of the ape stays the course of his disease; and he
>>attacks it when he is grown (too) old to get a meal, for the lions when
>they
>>are past hunting stags and wild boars gobble up the apes, and husband for
>>their pursuit whatever strength they have left. The inhabitants of the
>>country, however, are not disposed to allow this, because they regard
these
>>animals as their benefactors, and so make war against the lions in behalf
>of
>>them.
>>
>>For this is the way they go to work in collecting the pepper; the Indians
>go
>>up to the lower trees and pluck off the fruit, and they make little round
>>shallow pits around the trees, into which they collect the pepper,
>>carelessly tossing it in, as if it had no value and was of no serious use
>to
>>mankind. Then the monkeys mark their actions from above out of their
>>fastnesses, and when the night comes on they imitate the action of the
>>Indians, and twisting off the twigs of the trees, they bring and throw
them
>>into the pits in question; then the Indians at daybreak carry away the
>heaps
>>of the spice which they have thus got without any trouble, and indeed
>during
>>the repose of slumber."
>>Clever, those ancient Indians. This is, so far, the earliest record we've
>>seen of inter-species use of allelomimetic behavior.
>>
>>From: The Life of Apollonius of Tyana Philostratus {220 AD}
>>Found on the Web at - http://www.magna.com.au/~prfbrown/atyana24.html
>(snip)

From:	IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net"  "Robin Walker" 10-MAY-1998 02:04:35.20
To:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "'Cj'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Aggression

     A human can beat a dog into submission but cannot establish dominance with
force or the infliction of pain but body language will establish a dominance
relationship very rapidly.  Humans tend to link aggression with dominance at
a superficial level but anyone with a military or academic background must
appreciate that dominance relationships in humans are established and
maintained without aggression.  (fear yes, aggression no)


Not quite Sir!

As a School Prefect, Officer candidate, Sergeant candidate, soldier under
sentence (6 months in a Military Detention Centre (Stockade) and
finally released restored to rank and made a Military Policeman (because
they thought I would be 'top hole' at that sort of thing. What?") I have some
training..

All of which enables me to levitate toddlers with a shout, silence clients
and even occasionally get the last word among 11 female associates and 
employees.

How Sir?    

By Fear Sir as you say!

But fear of WHAT? That I will play them my entire collection of Barry
Manilow records? That I will read Shakespeare in German from
my 4 volume Saemtliche Werke?

They are afraid Sir of the Semiology. The Signals of Punishment.

 The Punishment so signalled and feared is not a cascade of pretty balloons.

It IS the "ThispersonistellingmethatIwouldnotlikewhatwillhappenifIpushthistoofarness"
of social contact.  Escape from 'stop look listen and be poised for God knows what'
of behavioural inhibition is intensely relieving. The play bow, the gracious welcome,
the 'gosh well done', the general politesse of social acceptance or admission to the
group owe their power (as signals of Reward) to the avoidance of Punishment.

The search for stored memory of confirmation of the reality behind the Semiology
may be require scanning childhood experience with the ultimately exasperated
parent, vivid memory of the fate of others (an impression not invalidated by the
success or failure of that transaction), folk lore and tales overheard of retribution,
it may even be just innate.

(I can hardly credit it but some silly novelist lady has just revamped Homer's
Iliad as a novel removing all the poetry and all the descriptions of disembowellment
death and retribution. Well she would wouldn't she but ...Oh never mind)


Such is the power of the Semiology of Threat that the recipient could be made
quite ill by its maladaptive application or even inured to the final application of
aggression. Such is the addictive power of escape from threat that some
individuals display a tendency to stay with the punisher for periods beyond the
comprehension of the beholder. 

The psychopathic individual is by definition indifferent to BOTH semiology
of threatened punishment and punishment itself. The bluff is called the
flush is busted and aggression will not retrieve the status quo. Transference
of the transaction to another place or another 'pack' might have some merits
but that is no longer a discussion about healthy individuals in a healthy society.

Aggression by signal is a real as it gets.

(Joking about Barry Manilow!)



-----Original Message-----
From:	Cj [SMTP:cwalt@ime.net]
Sent:	10 May 1998 06:56
To:	Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject:	Re: Aggression

    I have serious doubts that aggression and dominance in canids should be
linked.  In almost 30 years of observation I have catalogued a great array
of dominance signals and dominance behaviours as well as a large data base
on canine aggression.  In sum I find little or no aggression in dominance
signals and in terms of aggressive or agonistic behaviours I do not find any
consistent linkage to pack dominance.   In an evolutionary context mammalian
dominance systems have developed signals, displays, contests and a number of
other rituals to avoid direct and potentially lethal aggressive
interactions.  In terms of reproductive fitness and survival, the evolution
of rituals have enabled some measure of population stability whereas
aggression is markedly self-limiting.
In feral dog groups and wolf packs dominance is a variable and it can shift
from day to day.  A low order bitch that breeds with the alpha male will
experience a transient rise in the dominance array but this is lost at, or
about, the time of weaning.  In dog-human dominance interactions the
question of dominance is almost a daily exchange of signals and
dominance switching on a short term basis is the rule rather than the
exception in the relationships between hunting dogs and their owners.
Indeed, given this observed tendency for short term and transient shifts in
dominance status there is remarkably little evidence of fighting between
conspecifics that are members of the same pack.  An even more common
observation is that a female relatively low in the pack order will readily
threaten or attack a male for space infringment or food stealing.  (Males
are inhibited from attacking bitches regardless of the dominance order.)
A human can beat a dog into submission but cannot establish dominance with
force or the infliction of pain but body language will establish a dominance
relationship very rapidly.  Humans tend to link aggression with dominance at
a superficial level but anyone with a military or academic background must
appreciate that dominance relationships in humans are established and
maintained without aggression.  (fear yes, aggression no)
    I concede that violation of canine dominance protocols will trigger
aggressive interactions but in almost every instance the cause of protocol
violations is human intervention.  A behavioural substitution of aggression
and dominance has been established by selective breeding and some lines of
terriers and fighting dogs have been developed that do not respond
appropriately to common dominance signals nor do they appear to understand
them.  With selective breeding it appears that aggression can be substituted
for dominance behaviours but the consequence is that pack behaviours are
weakened or eliminated and these dogs do not appear capable of some forms of
group socialization.
Cj

From:	IN%"rondog@btinternet.com"  "Jonathan Bowen" 10-MAY-1998 04:33:53.09
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Aggression and h.sap

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_vg1w24C0SPpmyyGPWS9ODA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

A few other things might be going on in wolf groups that may be of =
relevance to discussions of aggression and human-dog interaction:

Submission is the key step in forming order in wolf social groups. =
Domination is by consent.
High frequencies of active submission are associated with greater =
attachment to the social group.=20
Younger animals that do less of this are those which are most likely to =
choose to depart from the group; they are no more likely to be injured =
for not performing these behaviours, they feel less attachment and do =
not value close contact with other group members enough to place =
themselves at risk.
Animals which routinely seek domination so that they can display active =
submission are those that are most highly involved in the hierarchy and =
show distress when separated from the group. Unlike the younger wolves =
they value proximity to higher status animals and can become highly =
stressed if separated from them. They therefore appear to buy the right =
to maintain closer contact with animals higher in the hierarchy using =
acts of submission, which presumably reduces anxiety they feel from =
separation.

Acts of self abasement therefore demonstrate commitment ot the group and =
reflect the amount of value placed on membership by an individual.

Interestingly, the wolf behaviours are mirrored by similar social =
practices in human society such as initiation ceremonies and 'hazing' =
(as the Americans call what is seen in their frat. societies and in =
gangs).=20
It has been shown experimentally that human individuals place much =
greater value on membership of a group if they have had to undergo a =
form of public ritual humiliation in order to join.
They will often remain loyal to such groups for the rest of their lives =
and will be willing to inflict the same practices on other would-be =
members.
Despite the fact that people have died in some of these situations it =
has been virtually impossible to stamp them out.
Many tribal societies often use a form of trial before ascent to =
adulthood.
This is because acts of this kind do create loyalty and group binding =
that goes beyond any alternative.
The reason why they are so effective is that it is the individual =
themselves that learn to value the group; once that person has been =
through initiation they commit to the association voluntarily. They have =
bought the right to maintain contact with a group which they percieve as =
having high status by act(s) of self abasement, and thus avoid feelings =
of alienation.

Are the human model and the wolf model aspects of the same thing, and is =
this a sort of common rule within social mammals?
Does the repeated (and often potentially risky) act of provoking =
domination and then responding to it with active submission create the =
same kind of internal sense of commitment to the group in wolves. If =
this is a common theme, how might it affect dog-dog and human-dog =
interactions?

Another different issue:
Many of the wolf studies seem to be with very small groups. Has anyone =
studied slightly larger groups and looked for another phenomenon seen in =
humans; that of 'social proof'?
In stressful or confusing situations people often model their behaviour =
on that of other individuals they percieve as similar to themselves. In =
this way, groups of people will often avoid helping an injured =
bystander, but individuals will often stop to help.

Could this kind of seeking for social proof before responding be part of =
how wolves 'select' and maintain their relationship with dominant =
animals? Individual wolves looking to others for clue about who should =
be accepted and maintained as dominant.
Since this is a group effect it should operate most effectively where =
there are a larger number of individuals in the group.
If this were so then might you expect to see greater stability of =
hierarchy in groups where the number of mature animals is greater?

Any comments on this ramble?

Jon



--Boundary_(ID_vg1w24C0SPpmyyGPWS9ODA)
Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>A few other things might be going on =
in wolf=20
groups that may be of relevance to discussions of aggression and =
human-dog=20
interaction:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Submission is the key step in =
forming order in=20
wolf social groups. Domination is by consent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>High frequencies of active =
submission are=20
associated with greater attachment to the social group. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Younger animals that do less of this =
are those=20
which are most likely to choose to depart from the group; they are no =
more=20
likely to be injured for not performing these behaviours, they feel less =

attachment and do not value close contact with other group members =
enough to=20
place themselves at risk.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Animals which =
routinely seek=20
domination so that they can display active submission are those that are =
most=20
highly involved in the hierarchy and show distress when separated from =
the=20
group. Unlike the younger wolves they value proximity to higher status =
animals=20
and can become highly stressed if separated from them. They therefore =
appear to=20
buy the right to maintain closer contact with animals higher in the =
hierarchy=20
using acts of submission, which presumably reduces anxiety they feel =
from=20
separation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Acts of self abasement therefore =
demonstrate=20
commitment ot the group and reflect the amount of value placed on =
membership by=20
an individual.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Interestingly, the wolf behaviours =
are mirrored=20
by similar social practices in human society such as initiation =
ceremonies and=20
'hazing' (as the Americans call what is seen in their frat. societies =
and in=20
gangs). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>It has been shown experimentally =
that human=20
individuals place much greater value on membership of a group if they =
have had=20
to undergo a form of public ritual humiliation in order to =
join.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>They will =
often remain loyal=20
to such groups for the rest of their lives and will be willing to =
inflict the=20
same practices on other would-be members.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Despite the =
fact that people=20
have died in some of these situations it has been virtually impossible =
to stamp=20
them out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Many tribal societies often use a form of trial =
before ascent=20
to adulthood.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This is because acts of this kind do create loyalty =
and group=20
binding that goes beyond any alternative.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The reason why they are so effective is that it is =
the=20
individual themselves that learn to value the group; once that person =
has been=20
through initiation they commit to the association voluntarily. They have =
bought=20
the right to maintain contact with a group which they percieve as having =
high=20
status by act(s) of self abasement, and thus avoid feelings of=20
alienation.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Are the human model and the wolf model aspects of =
the same=20
thing, and is this a sort of common rule within social =
mammals?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Does the repeated (and often potentially risky) act =
of=20
provoking domination and then responding to it with active submission =
create the=20
same kind of internal sense of commitment to the group in wolves. If =
this is a=20
common theme, how might it affect dog-dog and human-dog=20
interactions?</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Another different issue:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Many of the wolf studies seem to be with very small =
groups.=20
Has anyone studied slightly larger groups and looked for another =
phenomenon seen=20
in humans; that of 'social proof'?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>In stressful or confusing situations people often =
model their=20
behaviour on that of other individuals they percieve as similar to =
themselves.=20
In this way, groups of people will often avoid helping an injured =
bystander, but=20
individuals will often stop to help.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Could this kind of seeking for social proof before =
responding=20
be part of how wolves 'select' and maintain their relationship with =
dominant=20
animals? Individual wolves looking to others for clue about who should =
be=20
accepted and maintained as dominant.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Since this is a group effect it should operate most=20
effectively where there are a larger number of individuals in the=20
group.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>If this were =
so then might=20
you expect to see greater stability of hierarchy in groups where the =
number of=20
mature animals is greater?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Any comments on this ramble?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_vg1w24C0SPpmyyGPWS9ODA)--

From:	IN%"bitterm@hotmail.com"  "Bill Jones" 10-MAY-1998 15:30:00.39
To:	IN%"jkincaid@oncomdis.on.ca", IN%"jkincaid@unix.kawartha.com", IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: animal welfare - a global issue? -REPONSE

>>>> John Kincaid <jkincaid@oncomdis.on.ca> 08/05/ 10h36
>>How do I address animal welfare in a country where dog
>meat is part of the menu?>>>
>
>Why is this any different from addressing animal welfare in a
>country where pig meat is part of the menu? It looks like
>there are some unconscious prejudices here (either against
>pigs or against people who eat dogs).
>

I agree that the Q re eating dog meat is itself a bias, and the insight 
brought by Jeff is what we realy need to pay our attention to.

Who has ever set a rule to say that dog meat is less morally eatable 
than pig meat? 

Whether a meat from certain animal species can becaome a table menu is 
virtually dependant on the difference in life habit and culture. 

In the western society, dogs are mostly raised as companions. Such a 
existence of these animals automatically shaped our minds that dogs are 
not here for meat. Based on this, anyone who eats dog is socially or 
even morally unacceptable. Therefore, there is a community boundary for 
you to address the issue with a right-or-wrong judgement.  Concious or 
unconscious, the Q is realy the one that 'since I am not eating dogs, 
how can you?'

Indians don't scornfully accuse the western people of eating their 
warshiped cattle. Muslims look at millions of pigs slaughtered every 
year in the Europe and the North America calmly and understandably. Why 
cannot we in the west look at such issue with the same attitude?

Behind it is either a self-confined mind or a self granted superiority, 
which is unconsciously taken by many in the west. If we base our 
judgement on such unconscious prejudices, how can we find a common 
ground to talk about 'Global issue' of animal welfare to other people 
outside the western atmosphere? 

Bill


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 10-MAY-1998 15:34:01.19
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Dominance: Cause or Explanatory Fiction? (1)

Dear List Members,

As some recent posts seem to indicate, "dominance" is often implicated as a
functional factor in the expression of dog aggression.  Such an assumption
about a functional relationship between dominance and aggression is
widely accepted and sanctified by many respected authorities.

On first glance, the theory would appear to answer a great
many questions, but with further scrutiny many shortcomings become
apparent, especially as the term is commonly applied to the dog-human
relationship. The basic assumptions are familiar to anyone having the most
casual exposure to the dog behavior and training literature.

Among dogs "dominance" conflicts typically occur around situations
involving the control of various vital resources and places, e.g., food,
toys (objects of interest), resting areas, self-protection, and, perhaps,
sexual privileges.  For example, if two hungry dogs are presented with a
food bowl big enough for only one of them to eat at a time, one of them
will likely displacethe other and secure control of the bowl by threatening
or actually attacking (if necessary) the other.  During future competitive
encounters between the two dogs the loser (now submissive) will tend to
display a more deferential and appeasing pattern of behavior towards the
winner (now dominant).  Among dogs dominance rank is established through
initial threats or actual attack, but is subsequently maintained by the
mutual exhibition and recognition of species-typical threat and
appeasement displays.  Presumably, social rank order is established in order
to minimize social contests and to prevent the outbreak of overt and
potentially damaging fighting between competitors.  In general,
dominance relations are established to prevent or control disruptive
competition so that efficient social functioning of the group is
possible.


As a qualitative description of appearances, these somewhat anthropomorphic
observations seem straightforward enough, even useful at times, but how are
they to be interpreted.  Furthermore, what implications can be safely drawn
from them for the control and management of dog aggression.


For one thing, the way the term "dominance" is used is often very
confusing.  In some of the literature it is not precisely clear whether the
author is talking about a trait belonging to an individual (e.g., "dominant
dog") or an emergent attribute derived from the win-lose outcomes of
competitive social interaction.  An important question is at stake here,
viz., is dominance an attribute of a relationship, or is it a biological 
trait belonging to an individual animal, perhaps found out by competing 
successfully with another (see Barrette, 1993).  Indeed, it is hard to 
speak of some dog as being "dominant," except in relation to some other
individual who is "subordinate."

Another source of confusion stems from the different levels of analysis
used to interpret the relationship between domminance and aggression.
The phenomenon is often viewed somewhat haphazardly from a causal,
descriptive, or inferential perspective. Dominance is probably not a
private or biological trait per se at all, but, further (and this may be
more controversial), it may not be a causal one either.  Dominance is a
description of competitive social interaction between animals or, if one
wishes a more quantitative perspective, dominance is a PREDICTIVE INFERENCE
derived from a history of wins and losses between two or more contestants.


Since dominance is probably not a trait belonging to an individual as a private
or biological attribute, how is it possible to speak of dominance as
something that is inherited or identifiable as a temperament trait.  These
questions seriously undermine the validity of puppy tests that claim to
identify such traits as "dominance." But, more importantly, given the
above, how can one speak of dominance as execising ANY causal influence
whatsoever on the dog's behavior?  From a qualitative point of view
"dominance" is a description; whereas, from a quantitative level of
analysis dominance is a predictive inference based on past encounters.
However, neither a description nor a predictive inference drawn from past
events can stand as a sufficient CAUSE or EXPLANATION for the behavioral effects
being observed.  

For example, the owner may describe the dog's behavior as being "dominant" or form 
certain predictions about the occurrence of aggressive behavior in the future, but 
neither of these can be thought of as instrumental causes affecting the expression
of aggression.  In other words, having been bitten in the past, the owner may
form a predictive inference about the dog's tendency to bite when he is
eating, perhaps interpreting in terms of "dominance."  One effect of this knowledge 
will be to cause the owner to stay clear of the dog while he is eating in the future.  
This may be viewed as a "cause" affecting the owner's behavior (and indirectly the dog's 
relative dominance) since he/she will likely avoid interfering with the dog
when he eats, but, obviously, it will have little direct bearing on the
dog's tendency to bite if the owner decides, nonetheless, to approach him
while he is eating. In this case, dominance doesn't cause the behavior, but rather 
it is the way the behavior is described or interpreted.

(Continued)...

Reference

Barrette C (1993).  The "inheritance of dominance," or of an aptitude
to dominate?  Anim Behav, 46:591-593.


************

Steve Lindsay

Canine Behavioral Services
12 West Willow Grove Avenue, #188
Philadelphia, PA  19118

Ph&FAX (215)248-0808

E-mail:  slindsay@ix.netcom.com


        When a dog runs at you, whistle for him.

                --Thoreau, Journal, June 26, 1840

From:	IN%"bitterm@hotmail.com"  "Bill Jones" 10-MAY-1998 16:04:58.88
To:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: animal welfare - a global issue?

Before we can think about the difference in opinions between people in 
the industrilized and developing countries, and try to communicate with 
each other, we may first need to ask ourselve several questions 
preconditionally.

Q re life priority:

(1) If you have been given an option of two choices: either to eat human 
meat or dog meat, which one is preferable to you?


Q re hypocritical mind

(2) If one kills ten animals with less pain, and the other kills one 
animal with pain, who has more humanity?

Q re consciousness

(3) If one does not care as much about the killing or suffering of 
people as about the killing or suffering of pets, do you think he or she 
is still normal and conscious person?


These are the Qs I have had for years whenever such a 'global' animal 
welfare issue came up. I believe that these Qs may lead us to find out 
whether or not there is a channal for a global communication on animal 
welfare issues between the west and the developing countries.

Bill

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	IN%"bitterm@hotmail.com"  "Bill Jones" 10-MAY-1998 16:05:21.04
To:	IN%"eduard.JORIS@planetinternet.be", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: animal welfare - a global issue?

Before we can think about the difference in opinions between people in 
the industrilized and developing countries, and try to communicate with 
each other, we may first need to ask ourselve several questions 
preconditionally.

Q re life priority:

(1) If you have been given an option of two choices: either to eat human 
meat or dog meat, which one is preferable to you?


Q re hypocritical mind

(2) If one kills ten animals with less pain, and the other kills one 
animal with pain, who has more humanity?

Q re consciousness

(3) If one does not care as much about the killing or suffering of 
people as about the killing or suffering of pets, do you think he or she 
is still normal and conscious person?


These are the Qs I have had for years whenever such a 'global' animal 
welfare issue came up. I believe that these Qs may lead us to find out 
whether or not there is a channal for a global communication on animal 
welfare issues between the west and the developing countries.

Bill

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	IN%"bitterm@hotmail.com"  "Bill Jones" 10-MAY-1998 16:05:50.54
To:	IN%"jkincaid@oncomdis.on.ca", IN%"jkincaid@unix.kawartha.com", IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: animal welfare - a global issue? -REPONSE

>>>> John Kincaid <jkincaid@oncomdis.on.ca> 08/05/ 10h36
>>How do I address animal welfare in a country where dog
>meat is part of the menu?>>>
>
>Why is this any different from addressing animal welfare in a
>country where pig meat is part of the menu? It looks like
>there are some unconscious prejudices here (either against
>pigs or against people who eat dogs).
>

I agree that the Q re eating dog meat is itself a bias, and the insight 
brought by Jeff is what we realy need to pay our attention to.

Who has ever set a rule to say that dog meat is less morally eatable 
than pig meat? 

Whether a meat from certain animal species can becaome a table menu is 
virtually dependant on the difference in life habit and culture. 

In the western society, dogs are mostly raised as companions. Such a 
existence of these animals automatically shaped our minds that dogs are 
not here for meat. Based on this, anyone who eats dog is socially or 
even morally unacceptable. Therefore, there is a community boundary for 
you to address the issue with a right-or-wrong judgement.  Concious or 
unconscious, the Q is realy the one that 'since I am not eating dogs, 
how can you?'

Indians don't scornfully accuse the western people of eating their 
warshiped cattle. Muslims look at millions of pigs slaughtered every 
year in the Europe and the North America calmly and understandably. Why 
cannot we in the west look at such issue with the same attitude?

Behind it is either a self-confined mind or a self granted superiority, 
which is unconsciously taken by many in the west. If we base our 
judgement on such unconscious prejudices, how can we find a common 
ground to talk about 'Global issue' of animal welfare to other people 
outside the western atmosphere? 

Bill


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 10-MAY-1998 16:32:05.23
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Dominance: Cause or Explanatory Fiction? (2)

2

Although social dominance itself is not an inherited trait, many
neurophysiological traits predisposing the dog towards competitive
success are influenced by inheritance.   For example, Pawlowski and
Scott (1956) have speculated that one of the most significant genetic
effects of selective breeding in the dog is the alteration of
behavioral thresholds, especially the thresholds affecting flight and
fight tendencies.  A dog with a high threshold for fleeing and a low
threshold for attack would enjoy a considerable advantage in terms of
establishing dominance over a rival exhibiting a high threshold for
attack and a low threshold for flight.  Certainly, a dog who attacks
with minimal provocation is likely to "dominate" a more inhibited
counterpart who runs away at the least indication of threat.


Rather than making the dog more "subordinate" somehow
(whatever that might mean), the above analysis recommends a
behavioral intervention that identifies and alters functional
behavioral thresholds that control agonistic behavior (i.e.,
simultaneously lowering the threshold for flight while raising the
threshold for attack)   Further, given that these sorts manipulations
turn out to be successful and the dog's tendency to bite the owner is
reduced, does this success mean that the dog's "social dominance " or
"status" has been changed or does it simply mean that the
likelihood of the dog exhibiting aggression has been reduced by
altering the significant behavioral thresholds controlling such
behavior. This line of reasoning reveals that the dog's relative 
dominance is quite irrelevant to the positive course of change.  What is 
changed relevant to "dominance" as a "cause" is the owner's perception,
interpretation, and predictions about the dog's behavior, especially
regarding his propensity to bite.  The dog no long bites around food when
approached, perhaps leading the owner to interpret this reduction in 
aggression as submission. But, has the dog become "submissive" or (as I think)
has he simply become less likely to bite when approached when eating.


Behavioral thresholds are also affected by a variety of physiological
influences, ranging from endogenous hormonal changes to psychotropic
medications. Does anyone believe that the so-called "dominance aggressor"
become "magically" subordinate under the influence of fluoxetine? A more likely
explanation is that the medication has significant modulating effects on
the flight/fight thresholds controlling the expression of aggression.
Also, consider the statistical tendency of male dogs to present more
frequently with aggression problems than females.  Wouldn't such sexually
dimorphic characteristics be better studied by investigating the threshold
altering effects of androgens (as one possibility) rather than implicating
"social dominance" as an explanation for the increased incidence of aggression 
in male dogs.

Lastly,  attributing causal significance to a difficult to falsify
"ritual of dominance confusion" existing between the owner and dog only
serves to beg the question.  Regarding this latter point, a relevant
statistical analysis (Voith, Wright and Danneman, 1992) failed to show
a significant relationship between owner anthropomorphic attitudes,
spoiling activities, or a lack of obedience training (all presumably
activities that should affect the owner's social dominance in some way)
and the occurrence of aggression or other behavior problems.


In conclusion, appealing to social dominance does not provide an
adequate causal explanation, but offers something more akin to an
explanatory fiction or "myth."   Perhaps, those arguing in defense of
the causative influence of social dominance on aggressive behavior in
the dog might do well to meditate on Morgan's old law of parismony:


"In no case may we interpret an action as the outcome of the exercise
of a higher psychical faculty, if it can be interpreted as the outcome
of the exercise of one which stands lower in the psychological scale."


The concept of social dominance may have many ethological applications
of tremendous scientific and heuristic merit for understanding the social
organization of animals, but in the context of the human-dog relationship
"dominance," especially as it is often interpreted as a "cause" underlying
the expression of aggression, fails to provide a meaningful framework for 
understanding aggressive behavior.  The dog doesn't bite his owner because 
he is dominant; if anything, he is dominant because he bites.  But even this
latter interpretation is flawed and fails to rise much above another
anthropomorphic fiction.  Although the term "dominant" may provide descriptive 
information, a description is not necessarily related to an actual underlying
cause.  

My question to the group:  Is "dominance" a functional factor underlying dog-human 
aggression or is it (as I have proposed above) a convenient descriptive interpretation 
sometimes posing as an explanation, i.e., an explanatory fiction? I'd enjoy reading 
your thoughts on the matter.   

References


Pawlowski AA, Scott JP (1956).  Hereditary differences in the
development of dominance in litters of puppies. J Comp Physiol
Psych</italic>, 49:353-358.


Voith VL, Wright JC, Danneman PJ, etal. (1992).  Is there a
relationship between canine behavior problems and spoiling activities,
anthropomorphism, and obedience training? Appl Anim Behav


***********

Steve Lindsay

Canine Behavioral Services
12 West Willow Grove Avenue, #188
Philadelphia, PA  19118

Ph&FAX (215)248-0808

E-mail:  slindsay@ix.netcom.com


        When a dog runs at you, whistle for him.

                --Thoreau, Journal, June 26, 1840

From:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj" 10-MAY-1998 19:42:56.40
To:	IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Dominance: Cause or Explanatory Fiction? (1)

Dominance is not an individual attribute, a single isolated animal cannot be
dominant any more than it can be taller.   The term is only applicable when
there are two or more associated conspecifics and dominance is therefore a
relative term so dominant, or the condition of dominance, bespeaks the
comparative (social) status of the two animals.  Dominance and aggression
are entirely different attributes for a dog, on the simplest level a dog can
display aggressive behaviours at the approach of unfamiliar people or
animals and it can use aggressive behaviour to kill a a threatening animal.
In the context of these encounters dominance is irrelevant since it only
describes the relative social status of two dogs.  There is no valid or
reasonable purpose to assert that a dog is dominent over a squirrel.

If dominance in dogs is related to or established by aggression then any
first encounter in which dominance is established must be an agonistic event
in which one dog displays aggressive (attack) behaviours and the other dog
reacts to that with flight, fight or submission.  This agonistic behaviour
is frequently observed between strange dogs but seldom extends beyond
posturing and displays unless one of the dogs is in its' own territory.
Aggressive normal dogs rarely, if ever, initiate a fight when they are both
in neutral territory.  A fight can be provoked quite readily between two
strange dogs if human interference disrupts the display sequences.

The relationship between dominance and aggression that is accepted and
sanctified by respected authorities has not been demonstrated by empirical
evidence and the supposed explanation for the linkage fails the test of
parsimony.  I doubt that such a relationship could be demonstrated
experimentally.  I can, however, experimentally demonstrate a wide array of
aggressive interactions that have nothing to do with dominance.  I can also
demonstrate consistent and reversible changes in dominance between dogs and
dogs and humans that are controlled entirely by body language.   Not only is
the dominance relationship established by the body language of conspecifics
but the signals are not aggressive displays.

There is one obvious linkage between dominance and aggression, the lack of
a response to a dominance display or an inappropriate response is apt to
trigger aggressive behaviour and even an attack.  In some dog breeds
(terriers and fighting dogs) dominance behaviours are reduced or supplanted
by aggressive behaviours.  Dogs are incapable of changing their modes of
communication and so they interact with humans by a few of the simple and
obvious body language signals, by interpreting human body language and odors
and with a shared command vocabulary imposed on the dog by training.
Dominance relationships exist between a family dog and any member of the
human pack (family) and these relationships are not obviously different from
the observed dominance relationships between dogs in a pack.  Dogs have
evolved as obligate pack animals and so there is always a dominance
relationship between a dog and the dog's owner.  Most people who are
familiar with dogs and dog owners can readily attest that in  such a
relationship sometimes the dog runs the show and sometimes the human in in
charge.   The popularity of dogs as family pets indicates that these
obligate (for the dog) dominance relationships are established without
aggressive displays.
Cj

    If your dog falls in love with a guest's leg it is appropriate to leave
them alone for a while.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------

-----OriginalLogically dominance  Message-----taller, faster or dominant
From: slindsay@ix.netcom.com <slindsay@ix.netcom.com>

Subject: Dominance: Cause or Explanatory Fiction? (1)


>Dear List Members,
>
>As some recent posts seem to indicate, "dominance" is often implicated as a
>functional factor in the expression of dog aggression.  Such an assumption
>about a functional relationship between dominance and aggression is
>widely accepted and sanctified by many respected authorities.
   -snip-

From:	IN%"uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar"  "Dr. Leopoldo Estol" 10-MAY-1998 20:24:23.96
To:	IN%"Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se"  "Anna Olsson"
CC:	IN%"<Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca>>"
Subj:	RE: animal welfare - a global issue?

Hi Anna and the rest of the group,
I feel very happy that you raised that issue. I agree that this is not only
for the Latin people involved in this important issue that needs to be
discussed.
In Argentina I start the subject of 'Animal Welfare' within the veterinary
community on the '90. I did not realize never what a long process would be
involved to increase the awareness of AW issues inside the veterinary
community. Now, I'm Professor at the Animal Welfare Chair in the Veterinary
School at the Universidad del Salvador; the first and only Argentine
Veterinary Animal Welfare Chair. This school, where I'm the Dean, is the
only argentine veterinary school who teach animal welfare to their students
as part of the obliged curriculum. Surprisingly no other school in my
country take the World Veterinary Association and the Pan-American
Veterinary Association recommendations issued an official statement
regarding the need of the AW education at all veterinary school in 1991 and
1992.
As far as I know, the very first veterinary chair at Latin America was
chaired by the"maestra" (respectfully, as TEACHER !) Alina de Aluja, at the
UNAM, Mexico (Universidad Nacional Autonoma).
To my surprise I needed to raise AW in the eyes of my colleagues as a
starting point and then they could continue the process in society. In
other words the profile of veterinarians as the 'animal advocates' need to
be markedly strengthened. I spoke several times [and continue to do so] to
each of our special interest branches of the Argentina's Veterinary
Federation, Congressional Representatives, politics, physicians and
secondary school students about the AW issues their particular species AW
issues.
Information was given out to the public and veterinarians and a we need
today that large number of AW policy statements will be developed. This
meant that when an issue arose, the veterinary community could comment
officially and nationally. In the future developing of he policy statements,
consultation will took place within the  members and this will  be an
educational exercise in itself.
I have worked alongside the Ministry of Agriculture officials for several
years and develop between 1992 to 1994 the Animal Welfare Program, at the
Animal Health Services, Secretariat of Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries,
the first and only Argentine veterinary Animal Welfare national program.  I
convenor for planning and developing a national program, that now it's
inactive at that level.
I guess it has taken 10 years only to show this issue. To achieve any
outcome here and there is still a long way to go.
Profesor Leopoldo Estol, Medico  Veterinario, Diplomado en Salud Publica.
Director, Carrera de Veterinaria, Universidad del Salvador.
Campus " N. S. del Pilar",
C.C. 198, Pilar 1629, Provincia de Buenos Aires, ARGENTINA.
Home phone (International + 54 1) 555 4580 & 552 1476
Office Fax. & Phone (International + 54 322) 31260 & 31261 & 31262 & 31263 &
90503 & 26053 & 26057
E-mail: uds-vete@salvador.edu.ar
URL:   http://www.salvador.edu.ar/uaf3-2.htm
"The opinions expressed in this communication are my own, and do not
necessarily reflect those of my employer"
"Las opiniones expresadas en esta comunicacion me pertenecen y no reflejan
necesariamente la opinion de la Universidad"



From:	IN%"righetti@ozemail.com.au"  "righetti" 10-MAY-1998 20:45:00.32
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Cat temperament

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_bThmtJbcnKlIjRqpG0ytJw)
Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Does anyone know of any scientific studies on the temperament of the =
domestic cat?
If so, could you please give me a reference or contact name.

Thank you,

Joanne Righetti =20
righetti@ozemail.com.au


--Boundary_(ID_bThmtJbcnKlIjRqpG0ytJw)
Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Does anyone know of any scientific =
studies on=20
the temperament of the domestic cat?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>If so, could you please give me a =
reference or=20
contact name.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thank you,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Joanne Righetti&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:righetti@ozemail.com.au">righetti@ozemail.com.au</A></FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_bThmtJbcnKlIjRqpG0ytJw)--

From:	IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 10-MAY-1998 21:28:00.63
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Cut-off signals and aggression

Cut-off signals and aggression 

In addition to some of the well-known social signals employed by the dog already mentioned
by other list members, another important group of social modulatory signals utilized by the
dog to postpone or break off agonistic conflict are the so-called "cut-off" signals
(Chance,1962). 

These expressive movements are often composed of escape intentions (turning the head-body to the 
side or closing/lowering the eyes), et-epimeletic intention movements, or displacement 
activities (yawning). The cut-off action has been referred to as a "compromise" movement by 
Tinbergen and defined by him as a "movement caused by ambivalent motivation ...between two
conflicting movements" (1964:216). In the case of agonistic encounters, the cut-off is an
expressive compromise between fighting and fleeing. 

One apparent function of the cut-off movement is to momentarily suspend sensory contact with
the arousing stimulus; thereby, breaking off stimulation (threshold modulation) that might
otherwise evoke an attack while avoiding, on the other hand, a chase if the animal should
attempt to run away. Besides producing pacifying effects on the animal exhibiting them,
cut-off signals appear to influence the opponent to reciprocate in kind, leading to a mutual
compromise. Leyhausen (1973) had this pacifying function in mind when he wrote about these
secondary effects of cut-off actions: 

"Such behavior, however, indicates that, on the one hand, an animal is not prepared to yield
but also that, on the other, it is not for its part in an aggressive mood. Such a gesture of
severing contact contains an offer of peace as well as a warning to the other not to push
matters to the limit, and this is the effect it often produces, i.e., in many animals there are
appropriate receptive IRMs [innate releasing mechanisms] (1973:304-305)." 

The cut-off signal is not a submissive gesture, but an opportunity to call a draw and "walk
away" without further conflict and potential injury to the contestants. Surely, variant 
"cut-off" signals play a direct role in regulating aggressive behavior in the domestic dog. 
Cut-off signals do not necessary carry any dominant-subordinate significance, they function to 
smooth over agonistic tensions without assuming anything about the effect it may have on 
relative dominance resulting from the encounter. Generally, the cut-off signal appears to have a
mutually pacifying effect which curtails hostilities before they escalate into a more serious
conflict. 

References 

Chance MRA (1962) An interpretation of some agonistic postures: the role of "cut-off" acts
and postures. Symposia of the Zoological Society of London, 8:71-89. 

Leyhausen P (1973). The biology of expression and impression. In BA Tonkin (Trans)
Motivation of Human and Animal Behavior: A Ethological View. New York: Van Nostrand
Reinhold Co. 

Tinbergen N (1964). The evolution of signaling devices. In W Etkin (Ed). Social Behavior and
Organization Among Vertebrates. Chicago, IL: Univ of Chicago Press. 


Steve Lindsay 

Canine Behavioral Services 
12 West Willow Grove Avenue, #188 
Philadelphia, PA 19118 

Ph&FAX (215)248-0808 

E-mail: slindsay@ix.netcom.com 


When a dog runs at you, whistle for him. 

--Thoreau, Journal, June 26, 1840

From:	IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk"  "R. Rodd" 11-MAY-1998 03:19:24.42
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

It strikes me very much that there are 2 strands to this discussion:

1) When may dogs injure people? Answer - if they see humans as prey,
intruders, threats, or whatever. The prospective owner needs to understand
these posibilities if the dog is to be kept safely. 

2) Is this dog a person I want as my friend? Answer - a discarded hunting
dog doesn't understand human ethics and it is anthropomorphic to expect
him to feel guilty about killing hares or rabbits, especially if he was
encouraged and rewarded for it in the past.

If you were to stop a group of humans riding to hounds and ask whether
they felt aggressive towards their prey I suspect that 99 per cent of them
would deny it vigorously & say they hunted for the interest of watching
hounds work, the chance to ride cross-country & so on. 

 On Fri, 8 May 1998, D.B. Cameron wrote:

> Reply to message from rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk of Wed, 06 May
> >
> >>From the point of view of someone trying to "sell" rescue dogs to the
> >public I would be delighted if there was a clear message to potential dog
> >owners/adopters from ethologists that predation is NOT anything to do with
> >aggression. It is often very hard to get over to otherwise reasonable
> >people that a predatory, rabbit-chasing dog may not have the slightest
> >tendency to be other than friendly and gentle with people and other dogs. 
> >
> >----------------------------------------
> >My opinions are my own Rosemary Rodd <rr25@cam.ac.uk> 
> >               01223 335029
> >
> >
> >
> 	On the other hand, a high percentage of incidents where dogs 
> kill newborn human infants very shortly after they are brought home from 
> the hospital, on investigation, are attributed to traditional predatory 
> aggression. That is, the dog who has not yet been introduced to and accepted 
> the infant as part of its "pack", hears and sees this little squirming 
> thing and assaults it as a beagle assaults a rabbit.
> 
> 
>  
I absolutely agree. We are very careful indeed to warn prospective owners
that they MUST NOT assume any dog will realise that babies and small
children are part of the family group and also that it is possible that
normal toddler behaviour may be interpreted by a dog as aggression. 

> 
> --
>     ^    ^      DBC   (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM)
>    < \  / >     Animal Behavior Clinic		440/826-0013
>      !  !       18250 Main Street		Fx: 234-3407
>       ..        Middleburg Hts., OH 44130
> 

----------------------------------------
My opinions are my own Rosemary Rodd <rr25@cam.ac.uk> 
               01223 335029


From:	IN%"Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch"  "Beat Wechsler" 11-MAY-1998 07:00:49.04
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Int. Congress on Appl. Ethol. in Freiburg/Germany

GERMAN VETERINARY SOCIETY - SECTION OF APPLIED ETHOLOGY,

30th INTERNATIONAL CONGRESS ON APPLIED ETHOLOGY 1998,

FREIBURG/GERMANY, 12 - 14 NOVEMBER 1998.



The programme of the 1998 meeting will include sessions on the following topics:


I) CONTRIBUTION OF ETHOLOGICAL STUDIES TO ANIMAL HOUSING

1) ENVIRONMENTAL ENRICHMENT
How can behavioural key features be incorporated into the design of indoor 
housing systems and outdoor enclosures. What are their effects on the behaviour 
of the animals?

2) EXTENSIVELY FARMED ANIMALS
What are the consequences of extensive conditions for the behaviour and 
welfare of farm animals? How to improve the handling of extensively farmed 
animals?

3) ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR AND TECHNICAL FACILITIES
How do animals cope with technical facilities in their housing system (e.g. 
automatic milking system, electronic sow feeder)?

II) FREE PAPERS
Preferred are innovative contributions on the behaviour of domestic/captive 
animals and animal husbandry.


There will be a brief meeting of the ISAE-Regional-Group West Central Europe at 
the congress.


CALL FOR PAPERS:

Abstracts in German or English must include topic, title, author(s) and affiliation, 
and should contain sufficient information on objectives, methods, sample size, 
results, conclusions and implications of the study.
DEADLINE for the submission of abstracts for oral presentations (15 min 
presentation and 15 min discussion, posters are not accepted) is 15 JUNE 1998. 
Abstracts (one page, no figures/tables/references) should be sent in 4 copies to:

Prof. Dr. K. Zeeb
Deutsche Vet.-Med. Gesellschaft
Am Moosweiher 2
D- 79108 Freiburg
Germany


The congress committee (D. Buchenauer/Hannover, H.H. 

select approx. 25 contributions based on the information provided in the 
abstracts. Studies that have already been published will not be considered. 
Authors will be informed about acceptance or rejection of their offers in 
September 1998, along with a provisional programme and information about 
registration. The congress fee will be approx. DM 100. Following the congress, all 
accepted contributions will be published (approx. 10 pages for each paper, in 
German or English) in a conference report by KTBL/DVG, Darmstadt, Germany.


For further information please contact Prof. Dr. K. Zeeb
(Phone:++49-761-43643, FAX:++49-761-4760728).


Beat Wechsler
---------------------------------------------------------------
Beat Wechsler

Swiss Federal Veterinary Office 
Centre for proper housing of ruminants and pigs
CH-8356 Taenikon - Switzerland
SMTP: Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch 
X.400: G=Beat;S=Wechsler;O=fat;A=admin;C=ch
FAX: ++41 52 365 11 90  
Phone: ++41 52 368 31 31

From:	IN%"Lene.JuulPedersen@agrsci.dk"  "Lene Juul-Pedersen" 11-MAY-1998 07:52:36.52
CC:	
Subj:	applied ethology list

I have just recently moved. Please unsubscribe me from the applied
ethology list at my old address ljp@kvl.dk and subscribe me at my new
address Lene.JuulPedersen@agrsci.dk

Thanks in advance 
Lene Juul Pedersen

From:	IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 11-MAY-1998 09:46:23.26
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Effects of domestication on social communication

Dear List Members 

Some recent posts have emphasized the dog's "innate" response to appropriate appeasement and
threat displays as being conducive to peaceful cohabitation between humans and dogs. The
importance of such displays and the dog's ability to express or understand them is not as
obvious as one might think at first glance. Of course, the dog does use an elaborate signaling
system for expressing his emotional intentions, but are these signals to be interpreted in the
same manner as the social signals of the wolf, for example. In other words are they used to
maintain social status and regulate appropriate dominant and submissive behavior. 


Several consideration draw such assumptions into question. As the result of domestication,
many morphological and behavioral changes have occurred that have altered the dog's ability
to communicate through facial and bodily expressions. Many of these changes have resulted
from genetic alterations in the direction of relative immaturity or physical and behavioral
"paedomorphosis". The dog never fully entirely "matures," but remains in most respects a
juvenile wolf. Frank and Frank (1982) have argued that the process of domestication proceeds
along various paedomorphic lines with selective pressures yielding prolonged immaturity and
various corresponding behavioral changes. In the transformation from lupus to familiaris, the
wolf has lost many of the well-defined agonistic rituals that ordinarily promote close and
cooperative social interaction. They note that "the wolf's highly predictable dominance ritual
has disintegrated into an assortment of independent behavioral fragments" (1982:519). 


However, not only have dominance displays undergone change, submission displays have also
degenerated under the influence of domestication: "His submission responses have likewise lost
much of their adaptive function and, consequently, their behavioral integrity and social
significance; a domestic dog on his back is more probably soliciting attention than initiating
submission or responding to domination" (1982:519). In the place of clearly defined and
unambiguous signals has arisen a collection of generalized signals that promote social
promiscuity through exaggerated care-seeking behaviors, various active and passive submission
fragments, and the perpetuation of a juvenile tolerance for varied and close social contact. In
comparison with the wolf's highly organized and integrated social structure, the dog appears
disjointed, confused, unpredictable, and fragmented. 

Besides these general effects of domestication, breed-specific changes have affected the dog's
social behavior in many ways. Selective breeding has altered developmental rates, behavioral
thresholds for the display of dominant and submissive behavior, behavioral tendencies and
temperament traits, social bonding, and trainability. Goodwin et al. (1996) have attempted to
quantify the domestic dog's divergence from the lupine archetype and communication system
based on morphological changes, bodily gesture and posture, and facial expression. Their study
demonstrates that the dog's ability to communicate has gone through significant change as the
result of domestication, at least insofar as human observers are concerned. Among the breeds
compared, dogs whose appearance most resembles the wolf (e.g., German Shepherd and
Siberian Husky) exhibited a corresponding greater number of wolf-like signals exhibited
during agonistic interactions than dogs whose appearance was deemed dissimilar to wolves
(e.g., Cavalier KCS, Norfolk Terrier, French Bulldog). Among wolves these signals are used
to modulate agonistic interactions and to prevent an escalation of aggression. One would
assume, therefore, that in dog breeds without an effective agonistic signaling system that they
would be more prone to engage in conspecific aggression, but this does not appear to be the
case. The authors speculate that dogs have a much higher threshold for aggression and,
consequently, they do not require the more intricate social communication devices exhibited by
wolves. Also, dogs may rely on more subtle communication devices for the management of
agonistic behavior that remain to be more fully elucidated. 

References 

Frank H, Frank MG (1982). On the effects of domestication on canine social development and
behavior. Appl Ani Ethol, 8:507-525. 

Goodwin D, Bradshaw JWS, Wickens SM (1997). Paedomorphosis affects agonistic visual
signals of domestic dogs. Anim Behav, 53:297-304. 


Steve Lindsay 

Canine Behavioral Services 
12 West Willow Grove Avenue, #188 
Philadelphia, PA 19118 

Ph&FAX (215)248-0808 

E-mail: slindsay@dogbehavior.com 


When a dog runs at you, whistle for him. 

--Thoreau, Journal, June 26, 1840

From:	IN%"SED249@ed.sac.ac.uk"  "Debbie Tunnicliffe" 11-MAY-1998 11:16:40.05
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	greetings

I am currently studying for a MSc in Applied Animal Behaviour and Welfare 
at Edinburgh University and I am particularly interested in stereotypic 
behaviour of captive giraffe. This summer I am carrying out a research project on the effect 
of a browse foraging device  and video-recording night time behaviour.I 
hope to give a profile of their behaviour in captivity over 24 hour 
periods, to discover if stereotypic behaviour occurs at any particular time, 
whether the enrichment device has any effect on behaviour and also to show 
that the welfare of giraffes in captivity at night requires more attention.

I would like any information on tongue playing/licking or head rolling in 
giraffes if possible.

Thank you

Debbie Tunnicliffe 

From:	IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 11-MAY-1998 11:47:17.27
To:	IN%"jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp"  "Janice Willard"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Types of aggression

Janice Willard wrote:

> Steve,
> 
> I think you brought out some important points here, and this mirrors what I
> have observed of the differences between coyote and dog attacks on my sheep
> flock.  The coyotes use a quiet stalk, short run, and a quick kill, usually
> by grabbing the throat.  They then consume everything except the rumen
> contents, often coming back to the same carcass on subsequent days.

Hi Janice

Yes, this is an excellent observation.  Klinghammer does a demonstration 
with wolves and buffalo at Wolf Park.  Wolves exhibit a very specific 
sequence of preparatory predatory behavior when they are confronted with 
a group of buffalo.  When a dog or low percentage hybrid is exposed to 
such a situation they tend to "goof" around alot or simply ignore the 
prey after a brief moment of curiosity, especially if it is clear that 
they cannot "play" with them.  Clearly, predatory behavior is affected 
to considerable extent by inheritance--high percentage hybrids show more 
of the species-typical pattern than low percentage hybrids.  Domestic 
dogs just appear confused about what to do.

  The
> dogs seem to have a form of play as the primary motivation.  They are
> excited, they nip and bark, they maul one sheep until it can't run anymore
> and then take off after another one  (this is why shepherds dread dog
> attacks more than coyotes).  They look like they are having a great deal of
> fun.  While these attacks involve a prey species--something which really
> can't fight back-- I'm not sure that killing for consumption is the primary
> goal in most of these attacks.


I think play in such cases forms a kind of emotional buffer, preventing 
the dog from running away or attacking too soon--play allows the animals 
to investigate the opportunity without committing themselves, perhaps 
helping to build their confidence to "explore" further.  Play may also 
serve to reduce inhibiitory fear, thereby, making an attack more likely 
if the target should trigger such a response by running away, for 
example. 

> 
> I think that what we have been reading in this discussion demonstrates is
> that an intention-driven defination differs from a consequences-driven
> defination.  Your classification system would only include agonistic
> behavior as being aggression, while Dr. Crowell-Davis uses the "if it walks
> like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck--if a dog is
> using its teeth and someone gets hurt, then we'll call this aggression-
> approach.  I suspect that we won't reach a consensus about this unless we
> can aggree on our definition of aggression.

I think this is a constructive assessment.  My belief is that the 
problem of definition is confused by the level of analysis employed by 
the observer.  Further, the confusion is exacerbated by then mixing 
these levels of analysis, as for example in the various categories of 
affective aggression (previously listed), where functional, 
motivational, situational, intentional, and emotional types of 
"causation" are lumped together.  Simplification and consistency in this 
area is sorely needed.


Steve Lindsay
Canine Behavioral Services
Philadelphia, PA

  

************************************************************************
***
> Janice Willard, DVM MS
> Tokyo 194, Machida-shi
> Higashi Tamagawa Gakuen
> 1-33-66
> Japan
> Phone/FAX (81)427-29-4519
> Message FAX (81)427-21-2850
> jwillard@fly.erato.jst.go.jp

From:	IN%"dagai@netvision.net.il"  "Dikla & Yuval" 11-MAY-1998 15:57:54.90
To:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "'Cj'", IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com"  "slindsay@ix.netcom.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Dominance: Cause or Explanatory Fiction? (1)

-----Original Message-----
From:	Cj [SMTP:cwalt@ime.net]
Sent:	=E1, =EE=E0=E9 11, 1998 4:43 AM
To:	slindsay@ix.netcom.com; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject:	Re: Dominance: Cause or Explanatory Fiction? (1)

The relationship between dominance and aggression that is accepted and =
sanctified by respected authorities has not been demonstrated by =
empirical evidence and the supposed explanation for the linkage fails =
the test of parsimony.  I doubt that such a relationship could be =
demonstrated experimentally.=20

Dear Cj
My name is Yuval I'm M.Sc. student doing my research on the intra-group =
aggression between Babblers (a social songbird living in the Arava =
desert in Israel) and it's relation with altruistic behaviours.=20
In regards to your doubt on the relationship between dominance and =
aggression, I think you forgot to add that you refer only to adult dogs. =
I would like to point out that between puppies or young dogs the =
aggression is the way of creating social hierarchy. So, the relationship =
between aggression and dominance is existing.=20
My opinion is that this relationship is a very basic one and still =
exists in the background memory of the adults that gives the signals =
that you have described. I believe that those signals should have a =
strong association with the dog's ability to win a fight and therefore =
to dominate the other dog that have a weaker signal (associated with a =
poorer chances of wining the fight with the first dog). The signals =
should have a cost to the dog that bears them in order to make them =
honest according to the "Handicap Principle".
I agree with what you referred as the test of parsimony. Social animals =
can not allow themselves to confront aggressively due to the vast amount =
of daily interactions between members of the same group, contrary to =
solitary animals that have only a few confrontations during their life =
with animals of the same species. Aggressive confrontation is costly to =
all participants and therefore not a very good choice when you meet =
others many times a day. It is better to know who will win before the =
fight and not after like when using aggression.
In solitary animals because the confrontations are rare there is a less =
need for the replacement of signals to aggression. Due to the cost of =
the signals, much less of them evolved in the solitary animals. A =
confrontation between 2 solitary individuals will be almost always =
aggressive, which is the basic way of deciding who will have the freedom =
to behave as it wants ,or, in other wards - to be Dominant. (A very good =
solitary example is the Blind Mole-Rat. A very solitary animal which =
almost any confrontation between 2 individuals end in a fight =
,occasionally, a fight to the death, and even the individuals sex is not =
enough a signal to avoid aggressive confrontation when it is out of the =
breeding season).=20
All the Best
Yuval Dagai
dagai@netvision.net.il=20

From:	IN%"craigmin@the-rowan.albatross.co.nz"  "Craig and Min" 11-MAY-1998 16:47:43.90
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Intro.

Hello everybody,
My name is Merinda (or Min as I prefer to be called).  I have been sitting, 
reading on the sidelines of this list for some time now, and I figured that it 
is about time I introduced myself.  I am in my third year of a four year 
honours degree in Zoology at the University of Otago in Dunedin (New Zealand 
for those of you unfamiliar with Dunedin).  So far I really enjoy all aspects 
of Zoology, but my major interests lie in behaviour and animal physiology.  
I have been wondering where to do a masters or PhD.  I would prefer a 
University somewhere in the US or Canada, however being a Kiwi, I know very 
little about which Universities would be good for me.  Any information and or 
advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Min

-------------------
Merinda Sutherland (Min)
Email: craigmin@albatross.co.nz
WWW:   http://www.albatross.co.nz/~craigmin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Knowledge is like a garden; 
if it is not cultivated, 
it cannot be harvested.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:	IN%"bitterm@hotmail.com"  "Bill Jones" 11-MAY-1998 20:28:13.84
To:	IN%"bitterm@hotmail.com", IN%"Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: animal welfare - a global issue?

>Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:29:38 +0200
>To: "Bill Jones" <bitterm@hotmail.com>
>From: Anna Olsson <Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se>
>Subject: Re: animal welfare - a global issue?
>
>Dear Bill,
>
>I read your posting with interest. I agree with you concerning the 
'moral'
>in eating different meats. I must admit that the main objection I had
>against eating dog meat (apart from the texture which wasn't very
>appealing) when I was doing a project in Vietnam, was that from a 
health
>and parasite point of view it's not such a good idea to eat carnivorous
>animals who have had the chances to gather quite some parasites from 
their
>diet. But I got a bit surprised to find that there were two types of 
dogs:
>the meat dog and the housewatch dog. Thinking a bit more about that -- 
well
>what's the real difference between that and us having dogs as pets and 
pigs
>for eating? Both intelligent animals with great learning abilities  - 
and
>besides now we also have pigs as pets parallel to having them for meat
>production, so we're just as unlogic as the VIetnamese concerning 
their=
> dogs.
>

I want to add one piece information more onto your experience.
Not long ago (a year ago?), a researcher in Canada published a paper to 
suggest that the meat of those 'sacrificed' dogs can serve as food, 
according to his study. Some people may think it unthinkable. But what 
kind of real scientific reasons they can give to debate on this?! 
Because the whole issue is merely how people regard it, based on their 
conventional psychology. Whether or not dogs can, or should, serve as 
human food is not the meat is healthy or not. We human are eating 
carnivorous of all kinds anyway. At least not so many people will be 
bothered to distinguish whether the fish on their table is carnivorous 
or not.


>You present 3 questions to be thought over before going out to discuss
>animal welfare. Yes, it is important that we have a humble approach and
>that we scrutinize our own views and actions before going out telling
>others the truth. Coming to your 2nd Q: Yes, I think the sum of bad 
animal
>welfare is far bigger in the Western world where we would kill 10 
animals
>with little pain when the African farmer kills 1 with more pain.=20
>
>And I think that as a person concerned about animal welfare I should 
focus
>on the 10 animals if I live and work here and on the 1 if I live  and 
work
>in Africa. No doubt that there are things to take care of here as well.
>

I believe that the majority of people will prefer the living with some 
pain to the death with less suffering. Animals, the living creatures 
like us, may share the same life value as we do. However, some of us 
human including many professionals and experts choose to say that they 
may be better off the other way. 

I certainly respect those vegetarians who care about animals by not 
eating any meat, because that is a manifest of real humanity in their 
behaviour. But I also cannot refrain myself from accusing those who lack 
of philosophic mind but play hypocritical word games in animal care, 
animal welfare, or whatever, for their own good. Certainly, we should be 
more comfortable to eat more animals with such a wonderful theory at 
hands. BUT, what is our goal of promoting animal welfare? To take care 
of animals' real interests or to console ourselves.

This is just a general comment which is not naturally applied to any 
individual persons.


>As to your 1st and 3ed Qs. You will find some people who find eating 
dog
>meat as aversive as eating human meat - and as some people have a 
closer
>relation to their dog than they have ever had to any human I wouldn't 
say
>much about that. Most of us however, will think that eating human meat 
is a
>horror beyond comparison and that care for humans will be the winner in 
the
>ultimate choice situation. I know there are animal right's activists 
who
>could be described as the person in the 3rd Q. I would regard them as
>conscious, yes, according to their sets of rules, but normal, no.=20
>
>And, after having asked myself these questions, my own question remains
>unanswered and I return it to you: is animal welfare only a Western 
issue?
>

Obviously, it is. But when people elsewhere in the planet can enjoy 
eating as much animal meat as we do now, it may have a very good chance 
to become a global issue. 

When hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children are dying of the sanction 
imposed by the 'civilized' world, the market for saling the western 
style of animal rights or welfare to these people or the witness around 
the world must be very limited.

Animal welfare is not only an academic debate. It is related to our 
humanity, our conciousness, our God-giving soul. We must not single out 
the issue when we still have a sense to keep our minds balanced. 

Enjoy discussing this with you, but pardon me for briefness in words.
Time is always pressing me to squeeze my words.

Yours sincerely,

Bill


>I look forward to a continued discussion!
>
>Yours sincerely,
>
>Anna Olsson
>-----------------------------------------------------
>
>Anna Olsson
>agronom - doktorand / M Sc of agriculture - PhD student
>
>Inst f=F6r husdjurens milj=F6 och h=E4lsa
>Sveriges Lantbruksuniversitet
>Box 234
>532 23 Skara
>
>Dept of Animal Environment and Health
>Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences
>P O Box 234
>S-532 23 Skara
>Sweden
>
>tel 46 (0)511 - 67245 (direct), 67218 (secretary)
>fax 46 (0)511 - 67204
>
>e-mail anna.olsson@hmh.slu.se
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	IN%"bitterm@hotmail.com"  "Bill Jones" 11-MAY-1998 20:28:51.06
To:	IN%"bitterm@hotmail.com", IN%"Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: animal welfare - a global issue?

>Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:29:38 +0200
>To: "Bill Jones" <bitterm@hotmail.com>
>From: Anna Olsson <Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se>
>Subject: Re: animal welfare - a global issue?
>
>Dear Bill,
>
>I read your posting with interest. I agree with you concerning the 
'moral'
>in eating different meats. I must admit that the main objection I had
>against eating dog meat (apart from the texture which wasn't very
>appealing) when I was doing a project in Vietnam, was that from a 
health
>and parasite point of view it's not such a good idea to eat carnivorous
>animals who have had the chances to gather quite some parasites from 
their
>diet. But I got a bit surprised to find that there were two types of 
dogs:
>the meat dog and the housewatch dog. Thinking a bit more about that -- 
well
>what's the real difference between that and us having dogs as pets and 
pigs
>for eating? Both intelligent animals with great learning abilities  - 
and
>besides now we also have pigs as pets parallel to having them for meat
>production, so we're just as unlogic as the VIetnamese concerning 
their=
> dogs.
>

I want to add one piece information more onto your experience.
Not long ago (a year ago?), a researcher in Canada published a paper to 
suggest that the meat of those 'sacrificed' dogs can serve as food, 
according to his study. Some people may think it unthinkable. But what 
kind of real scientific reasons they can give to debate on this?! 
Because the whole issue is merely how people regard it, based on their 
conventional psychology. Whether or not dogs can, or should, serve as 
human food is not the meat is healthy or not. We human are eating 
carnivorous of all kinds anyway. At least not so many people will be 
bothered to distinguish whether the fish on their table is carnivorous 
or not.


>You present 3 questions to be thought over before going out to discuss
>animal welfare. Yes, it is important that we have a humble approach and
>that we scrutinize our own views and actions before going out telling
>others the truth. Coming to your 2nd Q: Yes, I think the sum of bad 
animal
>welfare is far bigger in the Western world where we would kill 10 
animals
>with little pain when the African farmer kills 1 with more pain.=20
>
>And I think that as a person concerned about animal welfare I should 
focus
>on the 10 animals if I live and work here and on the 1 if I live  and 
work
>in Africa. No doubt that there are things to take care of here as well.
>

I believe that the majority of people will prefer the living with some 
pain to the death with less suffering. Animals, the living creatures 
like us, may share the same life value as we do. However, some of us 
human including many professionals and experts choose to say that they 
may be better off the other way. 

I certainly respect those vegetarians who care about animals by not 
eating any meat, because that is a manifest of real humanity in their 
behaviour. But I also cannot refrain myself from accusing those who lack 
of philosophic mind but play hypocritical word games in animal care, 
animal welfare, or whatever, for their own good. Certainly, we should be 
more comfortable to eat more animals with such a wonderful theory at 
hands. BUT, what is our goal of promoting animal welfare? To take care 
of animals' real interests or to console ourselves.

This is just a general comment which is not naturally applied to any 
individual persons.


>As to your 1st and 3ed Qs. You will find some people who find eating 
dog
>meat as aversive as eating human meat - and as some people have a 
closer
>relation to their dog than they have ever had to any human I wouldn't 
say
>much about that. Most of us however, will think that eating human meat 
is a
>horror beyond comparison and that care for humans will be the winner in 
the
>ultimate choice situation. I know there are animal right's activists 
who
>could be described as the person in the 3rd Q. I would regard them as
>conscious, yes, according to their sets of rules, but normal, no.=20
>
>And, after having asked myself these questions, my own question remains
>unanswered and I return it to you: is animal welfare only a Western 
issue?
>

Obviously, it is. But when people elsewhere in the planet can enjoy 
eating as much animal meat as we do now, it may have a very good chance 
to become a global issue. 

When hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children are dying of the sanction 
imposed by the 'civilized' world, the market for saling the western 
style of animal rights or welfare to these people or the witness around 
the world must be very limited.

Animal welfare is not only an academic debate. It is related to our 
humanity, our conciousness, our God-giving soul. We must not single out 
the issue when we still have a sense to keep our minds balanced. 

Enjoy discussing this with you, but pardon me for briefness in words.
Time is always pressing me to squeeze my words.

Yours sincerely,

Bill


>I look forward to a continued discussion!
>
>Yours sincerely,
>
>Anna Olsson
>-----------------------------------------------------
>
>Anna Olsson
>agronom - doktorand / M Sc of agriculture - PhD student
>
>Inst f=F6r husdjurens milj=F6 och h=E4lsa
>Sveriges Lantbruksuniversitet
>Box 234
>532 23 Skara
>
>Dept of Animal Environment and Health
>Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences
>P O Box 234
>S-532 23 Skara
>Sweden
>
>tel 46 (0)511 - 67245 (direct), 67218 (secretary)
>fax 46 (0)511 - 67204
>
>e-mail anna.olsson@hmh.slu.se
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" 11-MAY-1998 21:08:17.20
To:	IN%"howlbloom@aol.com"  "Howard Bloom", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com"  "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com"  "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	De Landa; Mechanism for Speciation

Howard (and others!)

DeLanda's book arrived today.  Thanks for pointing me to it although the
typeface looks a bit rough on my presbyoptic peepers!

Also,

I've scratched my head for some time about mechanisms of speciation.   Th=
e
notion of "incremental change suddenly one morning producing changes that=

are incompatible with mating" always struck me as a bit magical.    I can=

certainly accept the notion of incremental adjustments in behavior and
stimulus patterns and a separation of mating "practice" because of
sensory/preference changes.   However, the gametes may still be mutually
compatible if a couple research assistants mixed them together.

If we are to define "species" on the basis of an inability to produce
children, then we need evolutionary changes in genes that will (1) produc=
e
the same changes in both males and females and at the same time, (2)
produce a number of boys and girls who can mate with each other without t=
he
risks of inbreeding.

I couldn't think of anything until yesterday morning when looking at
Maynard Smith's new edition of "Evolutionary Genetics."   There it was in=

the first couple of pages.

Viruses could tinker with gene structure, exerting largely the same effec=
ts
in males and females at the same time and at the same point on the
chromosome, and do so to large numbers at once, and produce a cluster of
organisms that can breed with each other but not with the parent stock.

Likely not to happen too often.  Thus, saltation? (not a popular idea, I
understand)

Isolation, in and of itself, despite all kinds of progressive changes in
physical appearances, should not produce mating incompatibilities (at lea=
st
not according the criterion of eggs and sperm that won't merge into a
zygote).   There was a news release about 5 months ago to the effect that=

camels and llamas [?] produce fertile young even though the two "species"=

separated 12 mya.   And how many generations (5000?) of dogs underlie two=

breeds that can still make puppies together?

Any mechanisms besides viral?

Definitely feeling out of my depth,

Jim Brody

From:	IN%"bitterm@hotmail.com"  "Bill Jones" 11-MAY-1998 21:33:34.24
To:	IN%"Kirstyryl@aol.com"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: animal welfare - a global issue? -REPONSE

>From: Kirsty ryl <Kirstyryl@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:39:18 EDT
>To: bitterm@hotmail.com
>Subject: Re: animal welfare - a global issue? -REPONSE
>
>One of the main reasons I feel that westerners hate the thought of 
people
>eating dogs and cats abroad is, the inhumane way that they are kept and 
killed
>for food.  One such way is boiling them alive.  


Do people realy eat cats or dogs the way you described? 

Do you think it could be acceptable to the westerners if people eat them 
the way we eat cattle or pigs? 

If they only boil chicken or pigs, not cats or dogs, alive (never heard 
of all this), do you think the westerners have the same distasteful 
feeling.


>I realise that in Britain some of our intensive farming methods are 
>not the best in the world but can anyone agree with being so cruel. 


Ask pigs or chickens first.

If a person has only one type of meal and one type of very uncomfortable 
'bed' for all his life, 

if his sex life is rigidly controlled or even artificially manipulated; 

if his freedom exists only when he has an opportunity to move from a 
tiny pen to a crate,

if he never knows when and where his life is to finish simply because 
his body has grown up enough muscle,

if he knows all this, and wants to make a risky adventure, but cannot 
even dream about it.

Do you stilll want to say, 'Oh, Gosh! His life may not be the best in 
the world'?

Of course not only the farming situation in Britain is intensive. You 
can see such a farming practice in most industrialized countries.
People don't like to see that, but no one can virtually stop it. 

This is simply because we want meats.  

Let us admit our brutality for the sake of our better life. We should do 
something to the system to alter it, but certainly not by our mouths.


> As for Indian people worshipping catle have you ever been to India 
>and seen numerous bovines dying in the street and no one because of 
> the religion is able to kill them ???. 
>

In movies, a severely injured guy may ask his pal to shoot him. But in 
the real life, how many people want other people to help finish them 
that way? 

If doctor aided suicide is still strictly prohibited by law in human 
society, why can we affirmatively suppose that it is more humane to kill 
those dying bovines than to let them take a chance to die or recover?

This is our set of mind, not animals'. Before we can be sure that the 
animals realy want people to kill them, let it be. Otherwise, what we 
may do is mostly likely towards our interests (to reduce our own 
uncomfortable feeling), not theirs. 


Respectfully

Bill


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com"  "James F. Brody" 11-MAY-1998 21:44:14.28
To:	IN%"howlbloom@aol.com"  "Howard Bloom", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com"  "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com"  "Paleopsych"
CC:	
Subj:	Complexity and Psychopathology

Howard,

I appreciated your comments.   Sorry for the delay getting back to you...=


INCREASE THE IRRITABILITY OF INDIVIDUALS AND DRIVE THEM APART.   THIS
QUALIFIES AS A TRUE BREAKDOWN OF THE CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE DECISION
UNITS.  OTHER RESEARCH DEMONSTRATES THAT THESE CONDITIONS DECREASE THE
ABILITY OF INDIVIDUALS TO COMMUNICATE AND INCREASE DISCOMMUNICATIVE
EMOTIONAL TENSIONS .... absolutely!   And a good comparison!

YOU'RE IMPLYING THAT THE INSTABILITY AND CYCLING IS A PRODUCT OF A
BREAKDOWN IN COMMUNICATION BETWEEN NEURAL MECHANISMS AND AN INCREASE IN
THEIR DISCOMMUNICATION.  ... absolutely!   My gut and soul resonate with
the notion that our most difficult clinical challenges relate to
"impulsive" or poorly modulated response sequences .... affect is too
labile, cognitions are too extreme, the variability of the system is larg=
e
even though the mean response may not be all that different from normal.

JOHN SKOYLES' OBSERVATION THAT THE HYPOTHALAMUS INITIALLY EVOLVED AS PART=

OF THE SMELL MECHANISM OF EARLY MAMMALS FORCED TO LIVE A NIGHT LIFE, AND
HENCE TO SNIFF THEIR WAY THROUGH THEIR TERRITORY, USING SCENT TO BUILD A
MENTAL MAP OF ITS GEOGRAPHY.  LATER THIS GEOGRAPHIC MAPPING WAS BORROWED
FOR ANOTHER PURPOSE--CATEGORIZING INPUT TO BE PLACED IN MEMORY, POSITIONI=
NG
EMOTIONAL AND SENSE DATA INTO A COHERENT MENTAL MAP.  WHEN WE LOSE THE
COHERENCE OF OUR MENTAL MAP, THE ONE WHICH GIVES US A CLEAR PICTURE OF
WHERE OUR FUTURE, OUR PRESENT, OUR DESIRES, AND OUR NEXT MOVES FIT INTO T=
HE
LANDSCAPE OF OUR LIVES, WE LOSE A SENSE OF CONTROL AND ENTER A VIOLENTLY
UNCOMFORTABLE CHAOTIC STATE.  Anxiety and fear have been shown to cut blo=
od
flow to the frontal lobes in humans, a reversible disruption of
communication between brain systems.   All the inhibitory stuff gets shut=

off.  Behavior becomes more erratic.

THE HIPPOCAMPUS IS CAPABLE OF GENERATING NEW CELLS AND DOES SO AS A MATTE=
R
OF COURSE, I WONDER IF GIVING A PATIENT A CAREFULLY GRADUATED SERIES OF
TASKS WHOSE CONSTRUCTION NEARLY GUARANTEES THAT HE OR SHE WILL TRIUMPH OV=
ER
ALL OF THEM, THUS REGAINING THE SENSE OF CONTROL, WOULD REVERSE THE
HIPPOCAMPAL DEGENERATION.
Don't know about hippocampal degeneration.  Graded practice ought to
establish new links between the erratic nuclei and surrounding, less labi=
le
neural clusters whether in the hippocampus or not.

EXERCISE IS A GREAT WAY TO GIVE AN INDIVIDUAL AN EASY SENSE OF CONTROL.  =

Yes!   Meditation, sitting with a friend, thinking of favorite times ...
all might work through increasing the connection between a labile cluster=

and areas of some greater stability.

A PERSON'S POSITION WITHIN A SOCIAL WEB HAS A HUGE IMPACT ON THE
NEUROENDOCRINOLOGICAL STATES WHICH EMERGE AS EMOTIONS AND AS PHYSICAL
HEALTH   I saw a posting on the Applied Ethology list about changes in
dominance position changes the need for an SSRI.   I need to look at it
again.   I'm fairly sure that several of my clients respond differently t=
o
an SSRI as a function of season and other factors in their lives such as =
a
promotion or finding a new relationship.

Jim

From:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj" 12-MAY-1998 00:05:38.46
To:	IN%"dagai@netvision.net.il"  "Dikla & Yuval", IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Dominance: Cause or Explanatory Fiction? (1)

-----Original Message-----
From: Dikla & Yuval <dagai@netvision.net.il>

>
>Dear Cj
>My name is Yuval I'm M.Sc. student doing my research on the intra-group
aggression between Babblers (a social songbird living in the Arava desert in
Israel) and it's relation with altruistic behaviours.
>In regards to your doubt on the relationship between dominance and
aggression, I think you forgot to add that you refer only to adult dogs. I
would like to point out that between puppies or young dogs the aggression is
the way of creating social hierarchy. So, the relationship between
aggression and dominance is existing.

---------------------------------------------------
I have not observed puppies displaying true aggressive behaviours although
there is an enormous amount of play that does appear aggressive.  Play has
an important role in social development but the play snarling, and biting
and so on is truly not aggressive although the appearance of the behaviours
suggest anger or attacking to human observers.  (Note that I choose to
define aggression and dominance by intent rather than result) I should also
note that young dogs do appear to learn some of  the appropriate dominance
body language from mature dogs and the teaching method employed involves a
physical correction that is quite effective.  The adult will grasp the pup,
usually with the neck or nape held behind the canines and shake gently it
while growling.. this is very instructive to dogs and even mature dogs will
respond quickly to this correction.  This is not aggressive and mature dogs
do not exhibit this specific behaviour to to other animals although I have
seen a few dogs use it on human children.  There is no doubt of the intent
and nature of this correction display since a truly aggressive response to a
cat or a fox will involve a superficially similar but quite different
attack.  In this case the animal is not grasped by the neck but by the neck
and thorax, this is followed immediately by an extremely sharp bite and
shake that collapses the lungs and crushes some ribs while breaking the neck
(data from my autopsy notes on retrieved cats).   These same hunting dogs
may kill a wounded bird during the retrieve (prey aggression ?) by squeezing
it, there is no shaking and no crushing of bones or the spinal column that
is usually observed in an aggressive attack.
Please be aware of the dogs that I'm working with and discussing here, they
are all hunting dogs that are bred and used for this purpose.  I truly
cannot assert that my observations apply to all, or even most, breeds of
domestic dogs.  I do encounter a number of other breeds which have been
selectively bred for purposes other than hunting or working and some of
these animals indeed display unusual or unexpected behaviours in terms of
normal canine social interactions.  Selective breeding can change the
animal's behavioural makeup as much, if not more, than the animal's physical
attributes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

>My opinion is that this relationship is a very basic one and still exists
in the background memory of the adults that gives the signals that you have
described. I believe that those signals should have a strong association
with the dog's ability to win a fight and therefore to dominate the other
dog that have a weaker signal (associated with a poorer chances of wining
the fight with the first dog). The signals should have a cost to the dog
that bears them in order to make them honest according to the "Handicap
Principle".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------
I don't know much about background memory theories but the widespread
distribution of dominance interactions throughout a number of taxa, suggest
that it has great survival value and may serve multiple purposes.    Some
animals will clearly display dominance signals to another group member and
yet will attack, and sometimes kill,  a conspecific from another pack
without the display of any significant dominance ritual.  This suggests that
dominance rituals are a substitute for aggression rather than a variety of
aggression per.se..   I also believe that dominance displays and
interactions in canids have social survival value that is unrelated to
agonistic behaviours.     Cj

From:	IN%"jhorsley@fargocity.com"  "James Horsley" 12-MAY-1998 00:15:19.01
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	American bison query

Hi--
I have an interest in the American bison and the Native American.  I
learned that the Montana Department of Livestock has shot over 2,000
buffalo comprising the last wild herd of buffalo in the United States,
those living in the Yellowstone National Park.  There are now about 1,300
left.  They have been shot because the DOL thinks that the wild buffalo
might spread a disease to cattle called brucellosis.  I would like to find
some way to protect this herd and was thinking of petitioning the
Department of the Interior and asking that the herd be placed on the
endangered species list according to the Endangered Species Act (ESA).  

According to the Endangered Species Act, the term "endangered species"
means any species which is in danger of extinction throughout all or a
significant portion of its range.  The term "species" includes any
subspecies of fish or wildlife or plants, and any distinct population
segment of any species or vertebrate fish or wildlife which interbreeds
when mature.

How do I determine if that herd falls into at least a "distinct population
segment?"  Are migration characteristics part of a defining characteristric
of a species or sub-species? What about hatitat or range?  The buffalo herd
is being shot because they are leaving Yellowstone National Park.  I assume
they are trying to migrate.  Is that a correct assumption?  How do I
establish all this scientifically?  Is there any text on buffalo species or
sub-species that would help answer these questions?

My best,

Jim Horsley
Fargo, North Dakota
also refer to http://www.fargocity.com/prairie/return.htm
jhorsley@fargocity.com

From:	IN%"Susanne.Waiblinger@vu-wien.ac.at"  "Susanne Waiblinger" 12-MAY-1998 02:23:29.78
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	cattle marking

Dear all,
I'm searching for a method of marking dairy cows for a
video observation lasting some months. Thus the marking should fulfil 
following conditions
- long-lasting, so that is has not to be renewed too often
 -not toxic and not causing residues in milk 
 - good visible on video
I have some experience with painting  numbers using untoxic colour, 
but it lasts only some days.
Does anyone has experience with special robust coulours or 
methods for dying the hair of cattle. I heard of hydrogenperoxid for 
bleaching dark hair, but this method has the risk of causing skin 
irritation. 

Every help would be very welcome!

Susanne
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dr. Susanne Waiblinger
Institute of Animal Husbandry and Animal Welfare 
Veterinary University Vienna
Veterinaerplatz 1
1210 Wien 
Austria
Tel. +43 1 250 77 49 05
Fax  +43 1 250 77 49 90
Susanne.Waiblinger@vu-wien.ac.at
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From:	IN%"H.Randle@plymouth.ac.uk"  "Hayley Randle" 12-MAY-1998 02:55:06.92
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	DEER AND HOUSING

Hello!

Does anyone have any information on the design of deer housing.  I 
have a student wanting to do his final year honours project on the 
behaviour of deer in relation to the design of their environment/s.

Thanks alot

Hayley

From:	IN%"J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk"  "melissa" 12-MAY-1998 05:00:44.32
To:	IN%"Susanne.Waiblinger@vu-wien.ac.at"  "Susanne Waiblinger", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: cattle marking

Susan wrote:
I'm searching for a method of marking dairy cows for a
video observation lasting some months....

*****

I've had similar problems with spraying sows.  Apart from the time spent having
to respray them everyday, repraying also unsettles the group and can be a bit
messy.  I'd also be interested in hearing any tips of long-lasting markings
(observable via video) which can be used for sows also.  Perhaps any hints could
be sent to the list.

Julie Durrell
School of Psychology, Queen's University of Belfast +
A.R.I.N.I., Hillsborough, N.Ireland


From:	IN%"Eva.Sondergaard@agrsci.dk"  "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Eva_S=F8ndergaard?=" 12-MAY-1998 05:19:06.64
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Cattle marking

Dear Susanne,
At Foulum we are using a human decolouring powder from Imperial
hairsystem for marking cattle and horses. I marked some horses about 3
weeks ago and the numbers are still as clear as the first day. The
product consists of a powder and a 12% cremoxyd containing
hydrogenperoxyd. You apply it to the skin, leave it for a while and =
wash
it off. It doesn't seem to bother the horses and I think horses have
more sensitive skin than cattle. I will use it myself for marking =
horses
for 3 months observations at pasture where I can't remark them.
Yours sincerely,
Eva S=F8ndergaard

Eva S=F8ndergaard
Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences
Dep. of Animal Health and Welfare
Research Center Foulum
P.O. Box 50
DK-8830 Tjele
Ph.  +45 89 99 13 19
Fax +45 89 99 15 00
E-mail Eva.Sondergaard@agrsci.dk


From:	IN%"fgalimbe@micronet.it"  "Filippo Galimberti" 12-MAY-1998 06:56:09.42
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Dominance and aggression

Some messages that appeared on the list negate any correlation between
aggression and dominance in canids.
I was not able to find any recent paper on the subject using standard
biblio search methods. In the species I work on (elephant seals) direct
aggression seems the most important component in dominance establishment,
especially between adults, and a main component in dominance maintenance.
Any suggestion about relevant references is very welcome. Please, reply
directly to me, and I will put together a summary. TIA.
Cheers
Filippo


         ___
        (@ @)
----ooO--(_)--Ooo------
 Filippo Galimberti,PhD
 Via Buonarroti, 35
 20145 Milano
 Italy
 Fax + 39 2 4980504
     + 39 2 48008145
 fgalimbe@micronet.it
-----------------------



From:	IN%"fgalimbe@micronet.it"  "Filippo Galimberti" 12-MAY-1998 06:56:35.74
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Dominance: Cause or Explanatory Fiction? (1)

Steve Lindsay wrote:

> snip
> An important question is at stake here,
> viz., is dominance an attribute of a relationship, or is it a biological
> trait belonging to an individual animal, perhaps found out by competing
> successfully with another (see Barrette, 1993).
> snip
> Barrette C (1993).  The "inheritance of dominance," or of an aptitude
> to dominate?  Anim Behav, 46:591-593.

Interested people should have a look to the original paper discussed by
Barrette (Dewsbury,D.A.  1990. Fathers and sons: genetic factors and social
dominance in deer mice, Peromyscus maniculatus . Anim. Behav. 39: 284-289.)
and to Dewsbury's reply (Dewsbury,D.A.  1993. More on the inheritance of
dominance relationships: extending the concept of the phenotype. Anim.
Behav. 46: 597-599), which clarifies some inconsistencies in Barrette's
comments.
Cheers
Filippo

         ___
        (@ @)
----ooO--(_)--Ooo------
 Filippo Galimberti,PhD
 Via Buonarroti, 35
 20145 Milano
 Italy
 Fax + 39 2 4980504
     + 39 2 48008145
 fgalimbe@micronet.it
-----------------------



From:	IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu"  "Ted Friend" 12-MAY-1998 09:08:06.37
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Cognition takes it on the chin

In case you did not take advantage of the opportunity to chat with Koko via
America Online, here is TIME Magazine=92s (May 11, 1998, page 19) spin on=
 the
event:


Title:  LOVE DRINK NIPPLE FAKE


If your livelihood depended on a talking gorilla, you=92d stretch the data
too.  So when an America Online chat with Koko, billed as a gorilla who can
communicate with humans through sign language, quickly devolved into a Dada
exercise, Dr. Francine Patterson, Koko=92s sign-language teacher, used some
pretty impressive logic to expand her simian friend=92s limited=
 communication
skills.  Here=92s a partial transcript.

(Photo of Koko at computer)

Q:  Koko are you going to have a baby in the future?
Koko:  Pink.
Patterson:  We had earlier discussion about colors today.

Q:  Do you like to chat with people?
Koko:  Fine nipple.
Patterson:  Nipple rhymes with people, she doesn=92t sign people per se, she
was trying to do a "sounds like=85"

Q:  Does she have hair?  Or is it like fur?
Koko:  Fine.
Patterson:  She has fine hair.

Q: Koko, do you feel love from the humans who have raised you?
Koko:  Lips, apple give me.
Patterson:  People give her her favorite foods.

Koko:  Koko loves that nipple drink, go.
Patterson:  She=92s kissing her alligator.
Koko:  Fake.

Q: What does fake mean to her?
Koko:  Gorilla.


From:	IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" 12-MAY-1998 09:36:26.40
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	giraffe stereotypies

Debbie Tunnicliffe asked about work on giraffes.   I think a study was done
by Dr Shusuke Sato, Grassland Research Institute, Kawatabi, Narugo, Miyagi
989-67, Japan.

Don Broom


Professor D.M.Broom,   Animal Welfare and Human-Animal Interactions Group,
Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine,   University of Cambridge,
Cambridge CB3 0ES, U.K. Telephone:44 (0)1223 337697.Fax:44 (0)1223 337610.

From:	IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu"  "Edward O. Price" 12-MAY-1998 09:52:14.52
To:	IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca"  "applied-ethology-error", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied-ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: cattle marking

Dear Dr. Waiblinger:  I have tried a variety of techniques for marking 
cattle for direct (not video) observation.  Nyanzol dye (black) still looks 
pretty good after a month or so, can be applied with a paint brush and does 
not seem to irritate the skin.  However, it would be difficult to use on 
holsteins with a great deal of black pelage.  We tried bleach on black 
cattle (Angus) with generally unsatisfactory results for lengthy 
observations.  We are presently glueing white vinyl strips (18 inches by 5.5 
inches) over the backs of our cattle just behind the shoulders.  On each 
side of the animal at the bottom of the vinyl strips we apply premade 4 inch 
black numbers.  You could make the strips wider than 5.5 inches and apply 
larger numbers (either premade or written with indelible black ink) to 
accomodate your video observation.  The glue we use is made for applying 
mount detection devices on cattle (Kamar Inc., P.O. Box 773838, Steamboat 
Springs, Colorado 80477, USA; Phone: 970/879-2591).  It adheres well to the 
hair of the animal and, to our knowledge, does not cause skin irritation.

Ed Price
Department of Animal Science
University of California, Davis
eoprice@ucdavis.edu
 ----------
>From: applied-ethology-error
>To: Applied-ethology
>Subject: cattle marking
>Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 10:22AM
>
>Dear all,
>I'm searching for a method of marking dairy cows for a
>video observation lasting some months. Thus the marking should fulfil
>following conditions
>- long-lasting, so that is has not to be renewed too often
> -not toxic and not causing residues in milk
> - good visible on video
>I have some experience with painting  numbers using untoxic colour,
>but it lasts only some days.
>Does anyone has experience with special robust coulours or
>methods for dying the hair of cattle. I heard of hydrogenperoxid for
>bleaching dark hair, but this method has the risk of causing skin
>irritation.
>
>Every help would be very welcome!
>
>Susanne
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Dr. Susanne Waiblinger
>Institute of Animal Husbandry and Animal Welfare
>Veterinary University Vienna
>Veterinaerplatz 1
>1210 Wien
>Austria
>Tel. +43 1 250 77 49 05
>Fax  +43 1 250 77 49 90
>Susanne.Waiblinger@vu-wien.ac.at
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>

From:	IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu"  "Edward O. Price" 12-MAY-1998 09:52:34.19
To:	IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca"  "applied-ethology-error", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied-ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: cattle marking

Dear Dr. Waiblinger:  I have tried a variety of techniques for marking 
cattle for direct (not video) observation.  Nyanzol dye (black) still looks 
pretty good after a month or so, can be applied with a paint brush and does 
not seem to irritate the skin.  However, it would be difficult to use on 
holsteins with a great deal of black pelage.  We tried bleach on black 
cattle (Angus) with generally unsatisfactory results for lengthy 
observations.  We are presently glueing white vinyl strips (18 inches by 5.5 
inches) over the backs of our cattle just behind the shoulders.  On each 
side of the animal at the bottom of the vinyl strips we apply premade 4 inch 
black numbers.  You could make the strips wider than 5.5 inches and apply 
larger numbers (either premade or written with indelible black ink) to 
accomodate your video observation.  The glue we use is made for applying 
mount detection devices on cattle (Kamar Inc., P.O. Box 773838, Steamboat 
Springs, Colorado 80477, USA; Phone: 970/879-2591).  It adheres well to the 
hair of the animal and, to our knowledge, does not cause skin irritation.

Ed Price
Department of Animal Science
University of California, Davis
eoprice@ucdavis.edu
 ----------
>From: applied-ethology-error
>To: Applied-ethology
>Subject: cattle marking
>Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 10:22AM
>
>Dear all,
>I'm searching for a method of marking dairy cows for a
>video observation lasting some months. Thus the marking should fulfil
>following conditions
>- long-lasting, so that is has not to be renewed too often
> -not toxic and not causing residues in milk
> - good visible on video
>I have some experience with painting  numbers using untoxic colour,
>but it lasts only some days.
>Does anyone has experience with special robust coulours or
>methods for dying the hair of cattle. I heard of hydrogenperoxid for
>bleaching dark hair, but this method has the risk of causing skin
>irritation.
>
>Every help would be very welcome!
>
>Susanne
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Dr. Susanne Waiblinger
>Institute of Animal Husbandry and Animal Welfare
>Veterinary University Vienna
>Veterinaerplatz 1
>1210 Wien
>Austria
>Tel. +43 1 250 77 49 05
>Fax  +43 1 250 77 49 90
>Susanne.Waiblinger@vu-wien.ac.at
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>

From:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj" 12-MAY-1998 10:11:12.96
To:	IN%"fgalimbe@micronet.it"  "Filippo Galimberti", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Dominance and aggression

-----Original Message-----
From: Filippo Galimberti <fgalimbe@micronet.it>


>Some messages that appeared on the list negate any correlation between
>aggression and dominance in canids.
>I was not able to find any recent paper on the subject using standard
>biblio search methods. In the species I work on (elephant seals) direct
>aggression seems the most important component in dominance establishment,
>especially between adults, and a main component in dominance maintenance.
>Cheers        Filippo
>
    I think I'm in the minority by insisting that dominance and aggression
are very different behaviours in hunting dogs.  I do not assert that this is
true for all species
of canids, I suspect that it might well be different for African Wild Dogs.
I find that most of the hunting breeds that I have studied can recognize and
respond correctly to
signals from wolves.  There is a fairly good literature on wolf behaviour so
I have some information about wolf body language, in every case I can see
that the hunting dogs use a very similar signaling array.  Even more
interesting is that I have read about some behaviours observed in wolves
that I had not observed in dogs, after I learned of these behaviours I did
look for the specific signals and responses in dogs and found that dogs used
them too.  It is obvious that we don't recognize all of the social
interactions no matter how hard we study the animals.
    The literature on dog behaviour is extensive but is primarily in popular
magazines and articles so that I can find very few clear examples of
interactive body language signaling.  The lack of published studies on dogs
is understandable, most research is funded or influenced by government and
wolves are of political interest whereas a "house pet" is not worthy of
government funds.
Cj


From:	IN%"cwalt@ime.net"  "Cj" 12-MAY-1998 10:17:13.18
To:	IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu"  "Ted Friend", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Cognition takes it on the chin

-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Friend <t-friend@tamu.edu>
To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca <Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca>
Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 11:16 AM
Subject: Cognition takes it on the chin


>In case you did not take advantage of the opportunity to chat with Koko via
>America Online, here is TIME Magazine’s (May 11, 1998, page 19) spin on the
>event:
>>Title:  LOVE DRINK NIPPLE FAKE
>>If your livelihood depended on a talking gorilla, you’d stretch the data
>too.  So when an America Online chat with Koko, billed as a gorilla who can
>communicate with humans through sign language, quickly devolved into a Dada
>exercise, Dr. Francine Patterson, Koko’s sign-language teacher, used some
>pretty impressive logic to expand her simian friend’s limited communication
>skills.  <snipped>
-----------------------------------------------------
What's wrong with "LOVE DRINK NIPPLE FAKE" ?  It sounds like a fair
description of our society as whole.      Cj



From:	IN%"gonyou@sask.usask.ca"  "Harold Gonyou" 12-MAY-1998 10:32:39.61
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Attn. Zhengseng (Jason) Lou

Please excuse my use of the list for this purpose but I need to locate
Zhengseng Lou and am hoping that either he or someone who knows his address
is on the list.  If you do, would you please contact me.

Thanks.

Dr. Harold Gonyou
Research Scientist
Prairie Swine Centre, Inc.
P.O. Box 21057
Saskatoon, SK, S7H 5N9
CANADA
telephone 306 477-7452
fax 306 955 2510
e-mail gonyou@sask.usask.ca


From:	IN%"SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk"  "Nigel Goodwin" 12-MAY-1998 10:42:28.41
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Dominance: .... Fiction?

> > is dominance an attribute of a relationship, or is it a biological
> > trait belonging to an individual animal, perhaps found out by competing
> > successfully with another (see Barrette, 1993).

I've precipitated lengthy dominance debates on this network before 
(for which I retrospectively apologize!).  Since we can't seem to 
stay off the subject, can I recommend a paper for anyone looking for 
a definition of it....

Carlos Drews (1993): The concept and definition of dominance in 
animal behaviour.  Behaviour 125 (3-4) pp 283-313.

I found it much more digestible than the epic Bernstein paper 
(1981).  Drews lists *13* (count them) definitions of dominance - 
some of which contradict each other, but all of which may be 
applicable, depending on the species or system you're looking at.  So 
just browse through it and pick your definition accordingly.  (That's 
not meant to sound like a cop-out - it's actually a very useful 
paper!)

Glad to be of service.  :)

Nigel

From:	IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au"  "Petherick, Carol" 12-MAY-1998 16:36:52.44
To:	IN%"J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk"  "'melissa'", IN%"Susanne.Waiblinger@vu-wien.ac.at"  "Susanne Waiblinger", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: cattle marking

Dear All
In response to Julie's request I'm outlining my reply to Susanne:
This seems to be a widely encountered problem - I experienced it with
rangeland cattle which I just wanted to individually identify rather
than video.  I tried hair-colour and hair-bleach, which didn't work.
You can also get special cattle-marking paint here in Oz.  I tried that,
but encountered the same problem of having to re-do it frequently
(hopeless in my case as it would have required that the cattle be
mustered some km to yards to be remarked each time!).  I even attempted
clipping their coats - this may work with 'hairy' cattle (Bos taurus),
but it wasn't successful with my smooth Bos indicus beasts!!  I also
suggested that coloured tail tags could be used - they certainly seem to
stay on for some weeks, providing they are fitted correctly in the first
place.
My cattle were branded, so in the end I used this in conjunction with a
combination of coloured (large!) ear-tags and their own individual
markings (and powerful binoculars!).  I also suggested that dairy cows
could be fitted with coloured collars (perhaps not appropriate for
rangeland animals) or, if they were dark colours, could be
freeze-branded.  For studies on feedlot cattle here, using videos (and
black cattle!), the researchers have painted white numbers at various
points on the animals and just accept that they have to be re-marked
frequently.
With pigs I also tried a whole heap of things (such as hair-dyes, paints
etc), but in the end came down in favour of different coloured spray
paints or very thick marker-pens to put bands/stripes across the animals
(denoting different numbers). 

Carol

Animal Research Institute
Locked Bag 4
Moorooka
Qld 4105

email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au
Tel: (0)7 3362 9416
Fax: (0)7 3362 9429
  

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	melissa [SMTP:J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk]
> Sent:	Tuesday, May 12, 1998 10:05
> To:	Susanne Waiblinger; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
> Subject:	Re: cattle marking
> 
> 
> 
> Susan wrote:
> I'm searching for a method of marking dairy cows for a
> video observation lasting some months....
> 
> *****
> 
> I've had similar problems with spraying sows.  Apart from the time
> spent having
> to respray them everyday, repraying also unsettles the group and can
> be a bit
> messy.  I'd also be interested in hearing any tips of long-lasting
> markings
> (observable via video) which can be used for sows also.  Perhaps any
> hints could
> be sent to the list.
> 
> Julie Durrell
> School of Psychology, Queen's University of Belfast +
> A.R.I.N.I., Hillsborough, N.Ireland

From:	IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" 12-MAY-1998 18:40:36.36
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Mirror images

Has anyone seen any serious studies of canine reactions to their own
reflections?

Robin Walker's mention of the water-reflection phenomena brought to mind
that, during consultations in an area where client's dogs regularly walked
by large, reflective sliding glass doors, very few [perhaps a dozen out of
hundreds] showed any reaction to either their own or people's images
thereon. Those who [can a dog be a who?] did react, displayed either
aggressive [barked and went toward, hackles raised, then turned away after
sniffing] or defensive [barked, retreated, hackles up, then approached to
sniff]. After the olfactory investigation, all these dogs ignored the
reflections. Our own dog [mini-dachshund] ignores her own and our
reflections in our mirrors.

Bill Campbell


From:	IN%"yendys@elogica.com.br"  "Yendys Sydney Dantas" 12-MAY-1998 19:22:06.96
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology Discussion Group"
CC:	
Subj:	Could an annimal hurt its youngs because of physical imperfection?

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    I'm observing the behaviour of a couple of chachalacas Ortalis =
guttata and their youngsters, in captivity at Recife, Pernambuco, =
Brazil. The father had, for some days, the agressive behaviour of =
hurting its newest young with its beak. This young has a little physical =
imperfection in the left leg, so it had some difficult to place on a =
roost. Due to such hurt, this hatchling used to run away from the male , =
which pursued the young. After a week or so, the male finished =
presenting such behaviour, and started to treat this hatchling as its =
older and "perfect-leged" brothers. Could the imperfection have had some =
relation with the aggressiveness of the male? The female didn't have =
this behaviour in any moment.


       Sidnei de Melo Dantas
         Graduate student=20
         Universidade Federal Rural de Pernambuco (UFRPE)
            yendys@elogica.com.br

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<FONT=20
color=3D#000000>I'm observing the behaviour of a couple of chachalacas =
<EM>Ortalis=20
guttata</EM> and their youngsters, in captivity at Recife, Pernambuco, =
Brazil.=20
The father had, for some days, the agressive behaviour of hurting its =
newest=20
young with its beak. This young has a little physical imperfection in =
the left=20
leg, so it had some difficult to place on a roost. Due to such hurt, =
this=20
hatchling used to run away from the male , which pursued the young. =
After a week=20
or so, the male finished presenting such behaviour, and started to treat =
this=20
hatchling as its older and &quot;perfect-leged&quot; brothers. Could the =

imperfection have had some relation with the aggressiveness of the male? =
The=20
female didn't have this behaviour in any moment.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#000000></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#000000></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sidnei de Melo=20
Dantas</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Graduate student=20
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Universidade=20
Federal Rural de Pernambuco (UFRPE)</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
yendys@elogica.com.br</FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_M/n86syu46XJ5DRCkTr9nw)--

From:	IN%"HowlBloom@aol.com"  "Howl Bloom" 12-MAY-1998 22:44:35.04
To:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"geistvr@cedar.alberni.net", IN%"ISCS@aol.com", IN%"kckissan@wam.umd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Mechanism for Speciation--what spiders have to say

In a message dated 98-05-11 23:08:33 EDT,
Jbrody@compuserve.com writes:  << Viruses could tinker
with gene structure, exerting largely the same effects 
in males and females at the same time and at the same
point on the  chromosome, and do so to large numbers at
once, and produce a cluster of  organisms that can breed
with each other but not with the parent stock.   >> 

Could someone please explain to me *how* this happens. 
Meanwhile, Jim, many of your questions about
intermediate phases on the way to speciation are
answered by some of Kelly Kissane's rather amazing
postings on spiders.  Here's what I've got of Kelly's
contributions in my notes:   behaviorally, we have
hybrids.  This  happens even in my lowly spiders -
populations of the same species can have very different
courtship behaviors.  In some cases, these differences
are so different to cause one member to not recognize
the other, even though they are the same species!  And
as my mentor Dan Papaj mentioned in his book "Insect
learning" sometimes these behaviors are learned, not
genetically wired.  Kelly C. Kissane to IPP 5/2/98 
My own work involves differences in courtship behaviors
between populations of the fishing spider Dolomedes
triton, which has led to some reproductive
isolation....These animals can produce viable, fertile
offspring when different populations are "force-mated"
- a process that involves putting the female in a sleepy
mode so she doesn't kill her suitor - and these
offspring often are "hybrids" behaviorally, having
characteristics of both parents.  This is also seen in
two sister species of Schizocosa, work by Gail Stratton
found that hybrids were often rejected by both parental
species, but the hybrids were responsive to each other. 
Kelly Kissane to IPP 5/03/98  

This is the phenomenon Freud calls "the narcissism of
minor difference" as it's extended in _The Global
Brain_-- seizing on minor dissimilarity, needing to
gather as a group around that dissimilarity (conformity
enforcement), to squabble with and bud off from other
groups categorized as outsiders by that dissimilarity (a
diversity generator), to exaggerate the dissimilarity
between groups while stressing the common element of
discrepancy with other groups (the creative tango
between opposites--diversity and conformity), in other
words enforcing conformity within the group while
becoming more and more different from other groups. 
Rather quickly, according to studies on humans, this
process leads to genetic alteration.  Perhaps the
speciating moment takes place when a sufficient number
of the alterations have accumulated.    

In these examples from spider behavior, Kelly's also
shown a fascinating bit of the Baldwin Effect in its
early stages--behavioral change leading to genetic
change via group differentiation.  In other words, this
is an example of group selection at its best--something
which might upset those who are wedded to individual
selectionist arguments as the only ones of value (or
even allowable) in evolutionary biology or psychology. 


There's a marginally relevant quote on this in De Landa: 
"If we discover...a totality alongside various separate
parts, it is a whole of these particular parts but does
not totalize them, it is a unity of all those particular
parts but does not unify them; rather it is added to
them as a new part fabricated separately." --Gilles
Deleuze and Felix Guattari. Anti-Oedipus. New York:
Viking, 1977.  

Just another way of stating the notion of emergent
properties or of a small sliver of Peter Corning's
Synergism Hypothesis.  In other words, it's another take
on the sum is greater than the whole of its parts--which
we see happening as Kelly's individual spiders become
parts of group units of selection which continue to move
away from each other until presumably they achieve
speciation.  Howard
----------
Howard Bloom
(founder: International Paleopsychology Project; member: New York Academy of
Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, American
Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and
Evolution Society, European Sociobiological Society; board member: Epic of
Evolution Society)

705 President Street
Brooklyn, NY 11215

phone 718 622 2278
fax 718 398 2551
e-mail howard@paleopsych.org
for two chapters from 
The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of
History,
see www.bookworld.com/lucifer



From:	IN%"dmills@dmu.ac.uk"  "Daniel Mills" 13-MAY-1998 05:26:10.14
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Phd studentships in applied ethology

De Montfort University is currently offering a number of internally 
funded PhD studentships in a range of disciplines, including applied 
ethology. Information is available in today's edition of the Guardian, 
but here are brief details.
 Students holding or expecting to graduate with a first class honours 
degree or a masters degree in an appropriate discipline are invited to 
apply for one of a number of specified projects or submit their own 
proposal in collaboration with an appropriate member of staff. This 
perhaps represent a unique opportunity to study what you've always 
wanted to at a higher degree level.

Specified projects include:
The development of physiological indicators of psychological disturbance 
in companion animals ( contact dmills@dmu.ac.uk)- This project is being 
run through the Dept of Pharmaceutical Sciences whilst the others listed 
below are being run through the dept of animal science.
The impact of preweaning environment on motivational and cognitive 
processes ( contact jcooper@dmu.ac.uk)
Can functional approaches be used to assess animal welfare? (contact 
rjyoung@dmu.ac.uk)
Asymmetry of form and function in the racehorse and its correlation with 
injury and wastage (contact gew@dmu.ac.uk)
Student driven proposals are especially encouraged which have an 
interdisciplinary approach to the study of animal welfare, animal 
behaviour ( contact sjghall@dmu.ac.uk)and veterinary clinical ethology 
(contact dmills@dmu.ac.uk). The University has not specified a limit to 
the number of propsals, but awards are in competetion with other 
faculties. 
I guess my colleagues will soon write their own pieces on this, so I'll 
just add a little more about my own areas of interest. Other project 
titles I could have specified would relate to the learning ability of 
horses - we have our own Skinner boxes for horses and the treatment of 
behavioural problems in cats and dogs..
Further details and an application form are available from
Julie Abram, - jmabram@dmu.ac.uk
tel.uk 0116 2506309
fx uk 0116 257 7583
The Research Unit
Room 00.20 Hawthorn Building,
de Montfort University,
The Gateway,
Leicester
LE1 9BH
UK
Closing date for receipt of completed applications is June 1st 1998 and 
positions must be taken up no later than september 1998.



From:	IN%"rstr6415@uriacc.uri.edu" 13-MAY-1998 08:04:14.64
To:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com", IN%"howlbloom@aol.com"  "Howard Bloom", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com"  "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com"  "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: De Landa; Mechanism for Speciation

Hello; this is a response to the speciation conversation that is taking
place - from an undergraduate, so my response may be a bit naive, but I've
just studied such phenomonen and there are several means by which speciation
can occur.  One is the virus infection which has been suggested.  Others
include inversions and translocations in the chromosomes which result in
rearrangement of genes and thus mutations.  If members of species A should
become separated geographically, for instance, and such mutations occur in
each group independently, over time and many generations the situation could
result such that no pairing could occur at meiosis - i.e. these two groups
could no longer breed anymore and you would now have two new species, B and C.  

The text used in the course I recently completed was An Introduction to
Genetic Analysis, Sixth Edition, Contributing authors; A. Griffiths, J.
Miller, D. Suzuki, R. Lewontin and W. Gelbart.  It's an excellent resource
for basic and advanced questions in genetics.

Ruth Strain
University of Rhode Island


At 11:07 PM 5/11/98 -0400, JBrody@compuserve.com wrote:
>Howard (and others!)
>
>DeLanda's book arrived today.  Thanks for pointing me to it although the
>typeface looks a bit rough on my presbyoptic peepers!
>
>Also,
>
>I've scratched my head for some time about mechanisms of speciation.   The
>notion of "incremental change suddenly one morning producing changes that
>are incompatible with mating" always struck me as a bit magical.    I can
>certainly accept the notion of incremental adjustments in behavior and
>stimulus patterns and a separation of mating "practice" because of
>sensory/preference changes.   However, the gametes may still be mutually
>compatible if a couple research assistants mixed them together.
>
>If we are to define "species" on the basis of an inability to produce
>children, then we need evolutionary changes in genes that will (1) produce
>the same changes in both males and females and at the same time, (2)
>produce a number of boys and girls who can mate with each other without the
>risks of inbreeding.
>
>I couldn't think of anything until yesterday morning when looking at
>Maynard Smith's new edition of "Evolutionary Genetics."   There it was in
>the first couple of pages.
>
>Viruses could tinker with gene structure, exerting largely the same effects
>in males and females at the same time and at the same point on the
>chromosome, and do so to large numbers at once, and produce a cluster of
>organisms that can breed with each other but not with the parent stock.
>
>Likely not to happen too often.  Thus, saltation? (not a popular idea, I
>understand)
>
>Isolation, in and of itself, despite all kinds of progressive changes in
>physical appearances, should not produce mating incompatibilities (at least
>not according the criterion of eggs and sperm that won't merge into a
>zygote).   There was a news release about 5 months ago to the effect that
>camels and llamas [?] produce fertile young even though the two "species"
>separated 12 mya.   And how many generations (5000?) of dogs underlie two
>breeds that can still make puppies together?
>
>Any mechanisms besides viral?
>
>Definitely feeling out of my depth,
>
>Jim Brody
>


From:	IN%"jjcooper@dmu.ac.uk"  "Jonathan James Cooper" 13-MAY-1998 08:04:22.72
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Etholgy"
CC:	
Subj:	Ph.D(s) in Applied Ethology (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:30:48 +0100 (BST)
From: Jonathan James Cooper <jjcooper@dmu.ac.uk>
To: Applied Etholgy <Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca>
Subject: Ph.D(s) in Applied Ethology

De Montfort University has just advertised a number of Postgraduate 
Research Studentships which will be spread across a number of disciplines 
across the university (The Guardian 12.5.1998). Potential supervisors for 
projects in ethology and applied ethology include Robert Young, Daniel Mills 
and Jonathan Cooper (me). Some further details will be posted on this 
noticeboard in the near future (tomorrow) but potential applicants can 
obtain details and application forms from:
Julie Abram
The Research Unit, 
Room 00.20 Hawthorn Building
De Montfort University
Leicester LE1 9BH
UK
Tel 0116 250 6309
Fax 0116 257 7583
Email jmabram@dmu.ac.uk

The closing dates for applications will be June 1st of this year and 
appointments will be expected to begin no later than September 1998.

For informal enquiries contact
dmills@dmu.ac.uk
rjyoung@dmu.ac.uk
jjcooper@dmu.ac.uk
or
sghall@dmu.ac.uk
 
This message bounced yesterday, so it is one day out of date. My 
potential studentship will be investigating the effect of pre-waening 
environment on motivation and cognition, probably in pigs as we have 
a commercial herd where equal numbers of piglets from identical lines 
are born in outdoor paddocks or farrowing crates. If you have (or are 
likely to get) a first class or good 2:1 honours degree in zoology, 
animal science, psychology or a related degree and would like to make an 
informal enquiry about the above project then contact me Jonathan Cooper on 
jjcooper@dmu.ac.uk or 01400 275602

For a full details of allof the projects available in Animal Science at De 
Montfort University, please contact Julie Abram (above).


From:	IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net"  "Robin Walker" 13-MAY-1998 12:02:35.97
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)"
CC:	
Subj:	Bullying -An Ethology Topic?

Dear All,

In the light of all the detailed analysis of aggression,
hierarchy and play to which we have been entertained,
I would like to invite discussion of 'bullying'

As a governor of a school for emotionally disturbed children
I am on the discipline committee which exists to consider
problems arising from the behaviour of both children
and in necessary their teachers.

Recent tragedies involving the suicide of schoolchildren
have attracted the feeding frenzy of the press vultures.

Rational debate is made almost impossible when
people are left frozen with horror at examples of 
psychopathic bullying leading to
the death of a child. 

I wonder if we could discuss the following propositions.

A number of species indulge in chivvying, nipping, 
pinching, hazing and scaring the newgrown and
the newcomer.

Is there a level of 'bullying' that could be regarded
as a legitimate and healthy activity that emotionally 
toughens and bonds.?

Can we define a level of maladaptive, dysfunctional, 
psychopathic bullying where there is no escape or 
redemption by acceptance?  

Should the recoil from tragic casualties render us 
unable to accept the milder chaffing, ribbing and 
ritual rules of natural society.?
     
Might attempts to abolish all instinctive emotional
toughening of this type yields individuals who
cannot ride the blows, frustrations, and actual
abrasions of real life.?  (Be they children or puppies?)
      
Might attempting to cocoon and restrain all such
natural ebullience yield a crop of young creatures
that respond with fear aggression (tears or blows)
or flight into despair (suicide)  rather than with
resilience?

Has natural over reaction to the worst excesses of
school children, fraternity house hazers, drill sergeants
led us to attempt to stifle Nature instead of studying
the nature of the mishap?

My thoughts are that bullying is the result of failure
in the hierarchy. The lack of vigilance by the seniors
that their authority is not usurped. The disengagement
of a officer corps from the events in barracks resulting
in unregulated non-commissioned officers. The
withdrawal of a prefectorial system among children
which when fiercely overseen by authoritative head
and housemasters could be protective rather than
a caricature of abuse.

Have we gone soft?

Interestingly the flight into liberal impotence that led
to teachers being unable to physically restrain or 
even speak sharply to children is going to be reversed.
In the UK the guidelines for restraint of  a child intent
on burning down the school or murdering a classmate
are going to be amended. Someone has realised
that it may be necessary to actually grasp a corner
(or two) of such a child to control (his her or its)
actions.  Haleluia.

An ethological view of the hierarchical behaviour
of various species and its enforcement and its
possible contribution to actual health and happiness,
would be refreshing.

The drenching we have received in the outpourings of
exploitative film makers and the whingings of media
folk cashing in their childhood traumas may dowse
the spark of reason.

A serious, scientific, tone-free discussion would be
timely and have great relevance to dedicated folk
trying to cope with these matters.

Robin

I am implacably opposed to formal, ritual, retributive,
vengeful, corporal punishment in any form in any species.

Immediate robust disciplinary intervention is another matter..

From:	IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com"  "James F. Brody" 13-MAY-1998 14:51:45.31
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology", IN%"hbe-request@a3.com"  "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com"  "Paleopsych"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: De Landa; Mechanism for Speciation

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:03:51 -0600 (CST)
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by sask.usask.ca
From: rstr6415@uriacc.uri.edu (Ruth Strain)
Subject: Re: De Landa; Mechanism for Speciation

To: JBrody@compuserve.com, Howard Bloom <howlbloom@aol.com>,
        HBES List Serve <hbe-request@a3.com>, Paleopsych
<paleopsych@kumo.com>,
        Applied Ethology <applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca>

Hello; this is a response to the speciation conversation that is taking
place - from an undergraduate, so my response may be a bit naive, but I'v=
e
just studied such phenomonen and there are several means by which
speciation
can occur.  One is the virus infection which has been suggested.  Others
include inversions and translocations in the chromosomes which result in
rearrangement of genes and thus mutations.  If members of species A shoul=
d
become separated geographically, for instance, and such mutations occur i=
n
each group independently, over time and many generations the situation
could
result such that no pairing could occur at meiosis - i.e. these two group=
s
could no longer breed anymore and you would now have two new species, B a=
nd
C.  =


The text used in the course I recently completed was An Introduction to
Genetic Analysis, Sixth Edition, Contributing authors; A. Griffiths, J.
Miller, D. Suzuki, R. Lewontin and W. Gelbart.  It's an excellent resourc=
e
for basic and advanced questions in genetics.

Ruth Strain
University of Rhode Island


-------------Forwarded Message-----------------

From:   James F. Brody, =

To:     Ruth Strain, INTERNET:rstr6415@uriacc.uri.edu
        =

Date:   5/13/98  4:42 PM

RE:     Re: De Landa; Mechanism for Speciation

The "mutation problem" remains with crossover errors.   You've got one
offspring, the mutant, who has no one with whom to breed.

Geographic isolation ... certainly a likely factor in sexual selection
(both behavioral and physical traits) but I suspect you get different
looking and different acting critters that could still produce viable
offspring (and fertile ones) if the gametes were put in a tube and mixed.=


Implication is that there may be many many fewer species that estimated o=
n
the basis of external appearance.

Many of us assume that with sufficient divergence, you eventually get two=

creatures that CAN'T breed; that idea troubles me as glib and unlikely.

Thanks for the comment about viral mechanisms!

Jim Brody

From:	IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca"  "Jon Watts" 13-MAY-1998 15:26:21.44
To:	IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net"  "Robin Walker"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)"
Subj:	RE: Bullying -An Ethology Topic?

Robin,

For sure it is an ethological topic. And an interesting one too. 

I know there is evidence that people raised in an abusive environment can
themselves become abusive towards others. However, I'd like to challenge a
pervasive myth that all bullies are timid, cowardly, abused people with
fragile egos who really need to be hugged. While it is undoubtedly true in
some cases, I don't share the Rogerian kind of view that everybody is
basically nice unless something bad happens to them. I think most bullies
are just bad people.

Now, that's not very helpful really, is it?

Jon

P.S. I've had plenty of good thrashings in my time and they never did me
any harm. any harm, any harm, any harm, any harm, any harm;-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Watts                                      (___)            )    ) 
University of Saskatchewan                     |o o|___________/     (
Dept of Herd Medicine                     O     \#/            |     )
and Theriogenology                      |bser|   | Statistical |     (
Western College of Vet. Med.            |vati|   |   analysis  |     ) 
52 Campus Drive                         |ons.|    \___________/|     *&
Saskatoon                               ------     ||         ||    %$#@
S7N 1B4                                /      \    ||         ||    ^*@*~
Canada                                                             &^%%#$@
wattsjon@duke.usask.ca                            "The Holy Cow"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From:	IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 13-MAY-1998 20:16:46.38
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Bullying -An Ethology Topic?

Reply to message from robin@coape.win-uk.net of Wed, 13 May
>
>Dear All,
>
>In the light of all the detailed analysis of aggression,
>hierarchy and play to which we have been entertained,
>I would like to invite discussion of 'bullying'


     Thank you. That was exceedingly well put and mirror my own
experiences and observations (though at a much less formal level)
completely. Nothing to add but, "Here, here!"



>
>As a governor of a school for emotionally disturbed children
>I am on the discipline committee which exists to consider
>problems arising from the behaviour of both children
>and in necessary their teachers.
>
>Recent tragedies involving the suicide of schoolchildren
>have attracted the feeding frenzy of the press vultures.
>
>Rational debate is made almost impossible when
>people are left frozen with horror at examples of 
>psychopathic bullying leading to
>the death of a child. 
>
>I wonder if we could discuss the following propositions.
>
>A number of species indulge in chivvying, nipping, 
>pinching, hazing and scaring the newgrown and
>the newcomer.
>
>Is there a level of 'bullying' that could be regarded
>as a legitimate and healthy activity that emotionally 
>toughens and bonds.?
>
>Can we define a level of maladaptive, dysfunctional, 
>psychopathic bullying where there is no escape or 
>redemption by acceptance?  
>
>Should the recoil from tragic casualties render us 
>unable to accept the milder chaffing, ribbing and 
>ritual rules of natural society.?
>     
>Might attempts to abolish all instinctive emotional
>toughening of this type yields individuals who
>cannot ride the blows, frustrations, and actual
>abrasions of real life.?  (Be they children or puppies?)
>      
>Might attempting to cocoon and restrain all such
>natural ebullience yield a crop of young creatures
>that respond with fear aggression (tears or blows)
>or flight into despair (suicide)  rather than with
>resilience?
>
>Has natural over reaction to the worst excesses of
>school children, fraternity house hazers, drill sergeants
>led us to attempt to stifle Nature instead of studying
>the nature of the mishap?
>
>My thoughts are that bullying is the result of failure
>in the hierarchy. The lack of vigilance by the seniors
>that their authority is not usurped. The disengagement
>of a officer corps from the events in barracks resulting
>in unregulated non-commissioned officers. The
>withdrawal of a prefectorial system among children
>which when fiercely overseen by authoritative head
>and housemasters could be protective rather than
>a caricature of abuse.
>
>Have we gone soft?
>
>Interestingly the flight into liberal impotence that led
>to teachers being unable to physically restrain or 
>even speak sharply to children is going to be reversed.
>In the UK the guidelines for restraint of  a child intent
>on burning down the school or murdering a classmate
>are going to be amended. Someone has realised
>that it may be necessary to actually grasp a corner
>(or two) of such a child to control (his her or its)
>actions.  Haleluia.
>
>An ethological view of the hierarchical behaviour
>of various species and its enforcement and its
>possible contribution to actual health and happiness,
>would be refreshing.
>
>The drenching we have received in the outpourings of
>exploitative film makers and the whingings of media
>folk cashing in their childhood traumas may dowse
>the spark of reason.
>
>A serious, scientific, tone-free discussion would be
>timely and have great relevance to dedicated folk
>trying to cope with these matters.
>
>Robin
>
>I am implacably opposed to formal, ritual, retributive,
>vengeful, corporal punishment in any form in any species.
>
>Immediate robust disciplinary intervention is another matter..

--
    ^    ^      DBC   (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM)
   < \  / >     Animal Behavior Clinic		440/826-0013
     !  !       18250 Main Street		Fx: 234-3407
      ..        Middleburg Hts., OH 44130

From:	IN%"Hans.P.Kjaestad@veths.no" 14-MAY-1998 02:33:33.90
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Bullying

Dear all,

On May 13, Robin Walker raised a number of very relevant and interesting
questions concerning bullying, children and ethology. Without having bullied
(I think), having been bullied, or having any formal training in psychology,
I would like to make a few comments.

Traditions may of course vary from one society to another, but I suppose
what people want for their children is neither a stifling kindergarten type
of environment nor a full-blown "Lord of the Flies" situation.

However, I think it is important to realise that bullying does not equal
rough play behaviour or inclusion rituals such as hazing. The term bullying
carries an implication of uneven distribution of the unpleasantness. A class
of thirty children all punching one another does not constitute bullying,
but  twenty-nine children consistently punching the thirtieth one does. If
the behaviour is allowed to go on without intervention from authority
figures, it is very unlikely that it will have any positive effects.

The lesson for the bullied child is probably learned helplessnes, that the
world is basically hostile, unfair and that those in power are not gong to
look out for you. Not a very good attitude to take up for a young person. I
think it is well established that being bullied has devastating long-term
consequences. I also suspect that those who merrily claim that " a few
beatings didn't hurt me at all" never experienced real bullying.

A good case can probably be made for inclusion rites having genetic survival
value in small, closely knit societies, therefore having a biological basis.
However, I'm not sure that this means I should let my neighbour's children
beat my children into submission and run off with their toys day after day.
That wouldn't be adaptive behaviour on my part, would it?

Finally, I would like to express strong scepticism to the idea of studying
other species than humans to learn about human behaviour. Except for
illustrating principles of general ethology, I don't see how such studies
can give information applicable to specific human behaviours.


Yours sincerely,

Hans Petter Kjaestad
Norwegian College of Veterinary Medicine

hans.p.kjaestad@veths.no


From:	IN%"marie.haskell@bbsrc.ac.uk"  "marie.haskell" 14-MAY-1998 02:40:36.80
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Mechanism for Speciation

Dear Applied Etholgy netters, Jim Brody and Ruth Strain,

Just why and how speciation occurs is extremely interesting. I recently heard
of some research from the field of genetics which might be relevant, but which
would only serve to show that, perhaps, something other than random mutations
leading to populations drifting apart is occurring. 

Maternal and paternal imprinting refers to the 'memory' that a gene has of
which parent it came from. Thus, genes, or at least expression of the gene, may
be switched on or off depending on which parent it came from. Examples have
been found in which there is an 'arms race' in which paternal genes for
pre-natal growth are being switched on, whereas maternally-derived gametes have
these genes switched off in favour of genes favouring post-natal growth.
Presumably so the mother isn't endangered by giving birth to large offspring. 

The other place that this imprinting occurs (which is more relevant to this
discussion!!) is that there is a kind of 'lock and key' system in which
maternally derived genes are 'on' and paternally derived genes are 'off', which
is being assumed to be a mechanism to prevent two gametes from the  same parent
fusing at conception. Further growth is apparently halted without the
appropriate configuration.

I find this rather amazing, but how would a system like this evolve when both
sexes have to have shifted in the appropriate direction at the same time?
Strange! Also, although only a handful of imprinted genes have been found, they
are all in mammals.

Marie Haskell


From:	IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 14-MAY-1998 02:59:17.38
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	pitbull influence on legislation

Our minister of agriculture has asked the advice of the Animal 
Welfare Council concerning the opportunity of legislation on the 
pitbull. I know laws were passed in Britain and France. Could 
members of this network inform our council about the existence of 
laws or interesting documents, reports, expert opinion, etc. they 
know of? 
We are aware the problem should not be restricted to a breed, but 
widened to selected / conditioned aggression in general. Hence do not 
limit the information to pitbulls.
That would be most helpful. 
Many thanks! 
Frank O. =D6dberg

- Please send email messages directly to our secretariat:
  lieve.parent@cmlag.fgov.be 
- If some are prepared to send documents, would they please forward 
them also to our secretariat:
Ministerie van Landbouw
DG5  - Veterinaire Diensten - Dir.II
Raad voor Dierenwelzijn / Conseil du Bien-=EAtre des Animaux
WTC3 - 5e verdieping - bur. 37
Simon Bolivarlaan 30
B-1000     Brussel


Prof.Dr.F.O.=D6dberg
Faculty of Veterinary Medicine
Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology
Heidestraat 19
B-9820    Merelbeke  
tel: +32-(0)9-2647804
fax: +32-(0)9-2647849

From:	IN%"SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk"  "Nigel Goodwin" 14-MAY-1998 04:48:24.32
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Bullying

I'm enjoying this discussion already.  I've often thought about how 
bullying in human society reflects what goes on in the rest of the 
animal kingdom.  At any rate, it shows that we're not that much 
different from other animals.

I would (politely!) dispute Hans' opposition to studying animal 
systems in order to gain insight into human nature.  Some of the 
parallels are uncanny.  Read (or indeed re-read) the Dominance 
Systems chapter in E.O. Wilson's "Sociobiology" book for an excellent 
description of the special properties of dominance orders: the 
xenophobia principle, the peace of strong leadership, the will to 
power, social inertia, and nested hierarchies.  All of these, I would 
say, are reflected in human society.  Hans' reference to "Lord of the 
Flies" is a very good example:  it is such a powerful (and 
disturbing) book because it is so realistic.  Throughout the story we 
see examples of all the properties listed by Wilson, and the problems 
arising when a dominance system breaks down.

I agree with Robin that bullying symbolizes dominance "gone wrong" in 
some way.  A class of children is an artificial construct: so is a pen 
full of pigs, chickens or whatever.  Both may function harmoniously, 
or be prone to aggression and bullying, depending on the nature of the 
individuals in the group.  And in neither case do individuals have 
the option of leaving the group or fleeing from attack, so the 
subordinate status of the bullied victims becomes over-enforced, 
potentially leading to disastrous consequences for both animals and 
humans if the situation is not resolved by outside intervention.

Human society is different from animal societies in that the rules 
come down from the very top (the government).  Robin hinted that the 
forbidding of teachers by law to physically intervene in the 
classroom in recent years has caused problems of discipline in schools 
(certainly in the UK - I don't know about the rest of the world).  
This is an artificial alteration to an already artificial dominance 
system, which has an effect throughout the whole of society.  In 
animal societies, organizational "mistakes" are weeded out very 
quickly:  in our society it needs years of evidence to build up to 
demonstrate that a mistake has been made, and for a remedial change 
in the law to occur.

Those of you who encouraged me to get over my "anthropomorphismo-
phobia" a few months ago will be pleased to learn that the drugs are 
working and I am making good progress.  Can I now suggest that there 
are many lessons to be learned from relating animals to humans and 
vice versa, as long as it is not taken too far.  The bullying 
question is a perfect example, and I would like to see much more 
attention being given to it in this context.

Nigel

From:	IN%"jjcooper@dmu.ac.uk"  "Jonathan James Cooper" 14-MAY-1998 05:53:15.69
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Etholgy"
CC:	
Subj:	Ph.D(s) in Applied Ethology

De Montfort University has just advertised a number of Postgraduate 
Research Studentships which will be spread across a number of disciplines 
across the university (The Guardian 12.5.1998). Potential supervisors for 
projects in ethology and applied ethology include Robert Young, Daniel Mills 
and Jonathan Cooper (me). Some further details will be posted on this 
noticeboard in the near future (tomorrow) but potential applicants can 
obtain details and application forms from:
Julie Abram
The Research Unit, 
Room 00.20 Hawthorn Building
De Montfort University
Leicester LE1 9BH
UK
Tel 0116 250 6309
Fax 0116 257 7583
Email jmabram@dmu.ac.uk

The closing dates for applications will be June 1st of this year and 
appointments will be expected to begin no later than September 1998.

For informal enquiries contact
dmills@dmu.ac.uk
rjyoung@dmu.ac.uk
jjcooper@dmu.ac.uk
or
sghall@dmu.ac.uk



From:	IN%"Hans.P.Kjaestad@veths.no" 14-MAY-1998 06:50:43.28
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Bullying

Dear All,

I do agree with Nigel Goodwin and Robin Walker that studies of other species
can result in useful information concerning principles of social behaviour.
When referring to such studies I did not mean to  sound anti ethology or
sociobiology (which I don't know a lot about). However, if one is going to
propose that a certain human behaviour has a strong genetic basis, one has
to make it plausible that the behaviour is, or has been, adaptive.
Therefore, the argumentation must be rather heavy in reference to the human
species, and light in reference to what is the custom among raccoons, ants
or pepperbirds.

If it sounds like I am now stating the obvious: sorry.


Hans Petter Kjaestad


hans.p.kjaestad@veths.no


From:	IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 14-MAY-1998 07:12:36.78
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology Mail Group", IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com"  "James F. Brody"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: De Landa; Mechanism for Speciation

<snip>

Geographic isolation ... certainly a likely factor in sexual selection
(both behavioral and physical traits) but I suspect you get different
looking and different acting critters that could still produce viable
offspring (and fertile ones) if the gametes were put in a tube and mixed.
Jim Brody
----------

<end snip>

For what it is worth, this very situation exists in the "personata" group
of Agapornidae, the taxonomy of which is frequently argued.  And  what's
more no articial insemination is required if the "species" are introduced
in captive breeding situations.

Best wishes

Chris

rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk
http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/



From:	IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca"  "Jon Watts" 14-MAY-1998 10:19:49.51
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Bullying

I'm enjoying the discussion on bullying. I was wondering if "Buller Steer
Syndrome" in feedlot cattle might be considered a kind of bullying
interaction. (i.e. one victim animal being ridden and ridden to the point
of exhaustion by others) 

Perhaps "Bullying Steer Syndrome" would be a better name.  It seems to
have some features in common with schoolyard type bullying in humans. In
that once initiated, more animals seem inclined to join in pursuit of the
victim. And the victim may have something about it, behaviourally or maybe
chemically that seems to incite this kind of attention. 

Just a thought

Jon
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Watts                                      (___)            )    ) 
University of Saskatchewan                     |o o|___________/     (
Dept of Herd Medicine                     O     \#/            |     )
and Theriogenology                      |bser|   | Statistical |     (
Western College of Vet. Med.            |vati|   |   analysis  |     ) 
52 Campus Drive                         |ons.|    \___________/|     *&
Saskatoon                               ------     ||         ||    %$#@
S7N 1B4                                /      \    ||         ||    ^*@*~
Canada                                                             &^%%#$@
wattsjon@duke.usask.ca                            "The Holy Cow"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



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To:	IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Returned mail: Can't create output: Error 0

This is a MIME-encapsulated message

--JAA23361.895162810/imap1.asu.edu

The original message was received at Thu, 14 May 1998 09:20:10 -0700 (MST)
from post4.inre.asu.edu [129.219.110.84]

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<nancylee@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
nancylee: Over quota 
550 <nancylee@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>... Can't create output: Error 0

--JAA23361.895162810/imap1.asu.edu
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--JAA23361.895162810/imap1.asu.edu
Content-Type: message/rfc822

I'm enjoying the discussion on bullying. I was wondering if "Buller Steer
Syndrome" in feedlot cattle might be considered a kind of bullying
interaction. (i.e. one victim animal being ridden and ridden to the point
of exhaustion by others) 

Perhaps "Bullying Steer Syndrome" would be a better name.  It seems to
have some features in common with schoolyard type bullying in humans. In
that once initiated, more animals seem inclined to join in pursuit of the
victim. And the victim may have something about it, behaviourally or maybe
chemically that seems to incite this kind of attention. 

Just a thought

Jon
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Watts                                      (___)            )    ) 
University of Saskatchewan                     |o o|___________/     (
Dept of Herd Medicine                     O     \#/            |     )
and Theriogenology                      |bser|   | Statistical |     (
Western College of Vet. Med.            |vati|   |   analysis  |     ) 
52 Campus Drive                         |ons.|    \___________/|     *&
Saskatoon                               ------     ||         ||    %$#@
S7N 1B4                                /      \    ||         ||    ^*@*~
Canada                                                             &^%%#$@
wattsjon@duke.usask.ca                            "The Holy Cow"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



--JAA23361.895162810/imap1.asu.edu--


From:	IN%"SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk"  "Nigel Goodwin" 14-MAY-1998 11:47:53.15
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Bullying

> Perhaps "Bullying Steer Syndrome" would be a better name.  It seems to
> have some features in common with schoolyard type bullying in humans. In
> that once initiated, more animals seem inclined to join in pursuit of the
> victim. And the victim may have something about it, behaviourally or maybe
> chemically that seems to incite this kind of attention. 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jon Watts                                      (___)            )    ) 
> University of Saskatchewan                     |o o|___________/     (

So does that mean that if Jon is rude to somebody on the network, we 
should all join in?

Nigel  :)

From:	IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca"  "Jon Watts" 14-MAY-1998 13:31:56.74
To:	IN%"SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk"  "Nigel Goodwin"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Bullying

On Thu, 14 May 1998, Nigel Goodwin wrote:

> So does that mean that if Jon is rude to somebody on the network, we 
> should all join in?

Hello Nigel,

You can please yourself as far as I am concerned. You seem to have jumped
on the majority bandwagon already though. I still say that if someone is
rude to EVERYBODY on the network, it is right for an individual to call
them on it. The alternative is an implied acceptance of snide, sarcastic
and pseud behaviour directed indiscriminately at everybody whether they
deserve it or not. I've accepted enough sniping and sneering and
incredulity about what I do as a graduate student in this field, and don't
feel inclined to accept any more from people who know nothing about me, my
values or my motives. I believe applied ethology and animal
welfare-related research is scientifically and socially important enough
to want to defend myself and other people with an interest in it against
silly allegations such as those made recently. I believe my response to
those comments was accurate and succinct (though perhaps inappropriate). 
You might well feel that this is the kind of defence we simply don't need,
and in a better frame of mind, I would probably agree with you. However,
it seemed to me that such vacuous remarks did not merit a more
sophisticated rebuttal. It is hardly surprising that there is a bit of a
credibility gap if even those who work and study in this area leave
unanswered people who think it is all somewhat of a joke.

I do not care in the least what you think of me, personally. This is only
my opinion. I do not ask you to share it or endorse it. 

Jon
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Watts                                      (___)            )    ) 
University of Saskatchewan                     |o o|___________/     (
Dept of Herd Medicine                     O     \#/            |     )
and Theriogenology                      |bser|   | Statistical |     (
Western College of Vet. Med.            |vati|   |   analysis  |     ) 
52 Campus Drive                         |ons.|    \___________/|     *&
Saskatoon                               ------     ||         ||    %$#@
S7N 1B4                                /      \    ||         ||    ^*@*~
Canada                                                             &^%%#$@
wattsjon@duke.usask.ca                            "The Holy Cow"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------




From:	IN%"arioncr@mindspring.com"  "Chris Redenbach" 14-MAY-1998 14:05:58.50
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Bullying

This is excellent Robin.

Perhaps you would like to say when you think actual bullying starts and
what you would call that sort of coersion that occurs at a lower level of
frequency or intensity than bullying. I think that one of the problems that
occurs both in real life and in these discussions is that individuals do
not hold the same definitions of concepts that involve aggression at
various levels. To make matters worse, there is much personal emotion
attached to the definitions.

I agree very much with your description of emotional toughening so that the
individual learns to cope with rejection and frustration of the will. In
all of nature there must be a balance between the forces that attract and
close distances and the forces that repel and increase or distances. One of
the distance increasing forces is aggression in its various expressions
from the very highly ritualized and thus non-violent to the all out
violence of fighting to kill. Then there are the bonding behaviors that
serve to decrease distances and cement social ties. 

Weaning is one of the first scheduled experiences of the young mammal that
begins to acquaint it with rejection and thwarting of its desires. And
despite this very physical and concrete thwarting, it learns that it is
still part of the group and mother still loves it. Mother even lets it have
the last word sometimes in the form of a vocalization or gesture even
though she wins the main point.

(This, of course, as long as mommy is stable and not sadistic which would
tend to cloud the lesson with additional and conflicting messages.)

There are other natural, balanced examples of forcing the young and the
weak to take a stand or to submit. They include the competitive behaviors
of siblings or other group members. One wonders if this doesn't increase by
far the emotional flexibility and problem solving ability of these
youngsters....as opposed to the single offspring of a solitary species
(come to think of it, most solitary species don't normally have just one).
This theoretically should give opportunity for these young to learn aspects
of self respect by holding their own as well as aspects of respect for the
others when they lose. Again, this is when things are in balance.

But then it seems there are sometimes certain individuals who stray from
balance into excess. These individuals become either bullies or scapegoats,
or perhaps both at different times.

I suspect that when naturally occuring things are done in balance, then
they work, and when the balance is disturbed, things stop working so well.
There are so many ways to look at the issue. Hopefully there will be lots
of takers on this discussion. You yourself most likely have done much
reading on this. What do you say?

I am interested in the connection between the scapegoat phenomenon we can
see in animals that are bullied by all their social contacts and what has
been shown to happen to hostages who come to sympathize with their captors
and the battered wife syndrome as well.

Eric Zimen gave an ongoing account of how one wolf came gradually to be
victimized by the bullying first by one and then little by little, all the
others. I think this relates to a gradual decrease in the victim's ability
to hold personal space and freedom of movement to gain access to resources
and perform bonding behaviors with others. Victims normally start out with
the motivation to defend themselves normally I think. THe bully gradually
lays claim to all the victim's space and controls it as though the victim
were the intruder in its own space. and more is happening as well.. 

There can be elements of learned helplessness, but there seems also to be
the element of emotional dependency on the aggressor by the scapegoat.
Perhaps there is some kind of neuro feedback that goes something like this:
relationship starts in a reasonably species specific way with the
appropriate exchanges of social bonding/repeling (boundary defining). One
emerges as stronger/more determined to have its way. The other initially
responds in a way to try to maintain peace/social equilibrium by
appropriate forms of appeasement yet attempting to maintain personal
integrity. The emergent bully is over stimulated by this appeasement
behavior and for some reason ( which it would be great to identify)
responds by exerting more controlling behavior, reducing the liberties to
space and resources as well as other social contacts, of the subordinate.
The decrease in freedoms of the subordinate creates greater frequency of
rule breaking just in the course of daily functions thereby stimulating
greater aggression in the bully whose criteria are constantly increasing
and greater appeasement and submission in the victim. At some point both
bully and victim must be suffering from some feedback effect that makes it
difficult for them to escape the loop. The victim has become so dependent
upon the bully through this repetition of appeasement and attempts to
adhere to increasingly unreasonable rules and curtailment of independent
actions, that escape from the pattern is unlikely. The bully may be
suffering from some similar but opposite kind of feedback.

The reduction of space and freedom of movement effectively isolates the
victim from possible allies, although that doesn't necessarily have to be
the initial intent of the bully, rather just an aberrant intensification of
the spatial acquisition behavior of dominance gone awry. But when the
victim hasn't the opportunity to reinforce social bonds with others, allies
of the victim can become allies of the bully. This alliance has fewer
dangers and more rewards since the allies are also encouraged to  assert
themselves beyond the social norms of balance as long as they do it only
toward the victim.  

You can probably fit this kind of thing into your emotional schema of fear,
relief, reward, etc.

But from whence comes the initial impetus for this imbalance that creates
an aptitude toward being a bully or a victim? and even if such a
predisposal exists is another question too deep to be contemplated before
lunch.


Chris Redenbach

At 06:56 PM 5/13/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>In the light of all the detailed analysis of aggression,
>hierarchy and play to which we have been entertained,
>I would like to invite discussion of 'bullying'
>
>As a governor of a school for emotionally disturbed children
>I am on the discipline committee which exists to consider
>problems arising from the behaviour of both children
>and in necessary their teachers.
>
>Recent tragedies involving the suicide of schoolchildren
>have attracted the feeding frenzy of the press vultures.
>
>Rational debate is made almost impossible when
>people are left frozen with horror at examples of 
>psychopathic bullying leading to
>the death of a child. 
>
>I wonder if we could discuss the following propositions.
>
>A number of species indulge in chivvying, nipping, 
>pinching, hazing and scaring the newgrown and
>the newcomer.
>
>Is there a level of 'bullying' that could be regarded
>as a legitimate and healthy activity that emotionally 
>toughens and bonds.?
>
>Can we define a level of maladaptive, dysfunctional, 
>psychopathic bullying where there is no escape or 
>redemption by acceptance?  
>
>Should the recoil from tragic casualties render us 
>unable to accept the milder chaffing, ribbing and 
>ritual rules of natural society.?
>     
>Might attempts to abolish all instinctive emotional
>toughening of this type yields individuals who
>cannot ride the blows, frustrations, and actual
>abrasions of real life.?  (Be they children or puppies?)
>      
>Might attempting to cocoon and restrain all such
>natural ebullience yield a crop of young creatures
>that respond with fear aggression (tears or blows)
>or flight into despair (suicide)  rather than with
>resilience?
>
>Has natural over reaction to the worst excesses of
>school children, fraternity house hazers, drill sergeants
>led us to attempt to stifle Nature instead of studying
>the nature of the mishap?
>
>My thoughts are that bullying is the result of failure
>in the hierarchy. The lack of vigilance by the seniors
>that their authority is not usurped. The disengagement
>of a officer corps from the events in barracks resulting
>in unregulated non-commissioned officers. The
>withdrawal of a prefectorial system among children
>which when fiercely overseen by authoritative head
>and housemasters could be protective rather than
>a caricature of abuse.
>
>Have we gone soft?
>
>Interestingly the flight into liberal impotence that led
>to teachers being unable to physically restrain or 
>even speak sharply to children is going to be reversed.
>In the UK the guidelines for restraint of  a child intent
>on burning down the school or murdering a classmate
>are going to be amended. Someone has realised
>that it may be necessary to actually grasp a corner
>(or two) of such a child to control (his her or its)
>actions.  Haleluia.
>
>An ethological view of the hierarchical behaviour
>of various species and its enforcement and its
>possible contribution to actual health and happiness,
>would be refreshing.
>
>The drenching we have received in the outpourings of
>exploitative film makers and the whingings of media
>folk cashing in their childhood traumas may dowse
>the spark of reason.
>
>A serious, scientific, tone-free discussion would be
>timely and have great relevance to dedicated folk
>trying to cope with these matters.
>
>Robin
>
>I am implacably opposed to formal, ritual, retributive,
>vengeful, corporal punishment in any form in any species.
>
>Immediate robust disciplinary intervention is another matter..

Chris Redenbach
  

From:	IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us"  "Paul Carella" 14-MAY-1998 14:23:48.50
To:	IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca", IN%"SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Bullying -Reply

Seems simple enough.  You are a bully if you are rude to everybody.  If
you are rude to just one or two people, you are just expressing your
opinion.

>>> Jon Watts <wattsjon@duke.usask.ca> 05/14/98 03:31pm >>>
On Thu, 14 May 1998, Nigel Goodwin wrote:

> So does that mean that if Jon is rude to somebody on the network, we 
> should all join in?

Hello Nigel,

You can please yourself as far as I am concerned. You seem to have
jumped
on the majority bandwagon already though. I still say that if someone is
rude to EVERYBODY on the network, it is right for an individual to call
them on it. The alternative is an implied acceptance of snide, sarcastic
and pseud behaviour directed indiscriminately at everybody whether
they
deserve it or not. I've accepted enough sniping and sneering and
incredulity about what I do as a graduate student in this field, and don't
feel inclined to accept any more from people who know nothing about
me, my
values or my motives. I believe applied ethology and animal
welfare-related research is scientifically and socially important enough
to want to defend myself and other people with an interest in it against
silly allegations such as those made recently. I believe my response to
those comments was accurate and succinct (though perhaps
inappropriate). 
You might well feel that this is the kind of defence we simply don't need,
and in a better frame of mind, I would probably agree with you.
However,
it seemed to me that such vacuous remarks did not merit a more
sophisticated rebuttal. It is hardly surprising that there is a bit of a
credibility gap if even those who work and study in this area leave
unanswered people who think it is all somewhat of a joke.

I do not care in the least what you think of me, personally. This is only
my opinion. I do not ask you to share it or endorse it. 

Jon
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Jon Watts                                      (___)            )    ) 
University of Saskatchewan                     |o o|___________/     (
Dept of Herd Medicine                     O     \#/            |     )
and Theriogenology                      |bser|   | Statistical |     (
Western College of Vet. Med.            |vati|   |   analysis  |     ) 
52 Campus Drive                         |ons.|    \___________/|     *&
Saskatoon                               ------     ||         ||    %$#@
S7N 1B4                                /      \    ||         ||    ^*@*~
Canada                                                             &^%%#$@
wattsjon@duke.usask.ca                            "The Holy Cow"
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From:	IN%"J.Durrell@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk"  "Julie Durrell" 15-MAY-1998 03:48:50.86
To:	IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Mixing cats/kittens.

I'd like to thank everyone that replied to my request for advice re mixing an
adult male cat with (3) kittens.  

Stanley (the adult) now appears to be coming round to the kittens.  He will eat
beside them, sniffs them and has even started trying to play with them, but
still hisses and runs away from them sometimes.  

I found the best methods were to provide a peaceful area for Stanley to escape
from the kittens (our bed), providing Stan with a high place when the kittens
were around (the kitchen table), gradually edging their food bowls closer
together and shutting them together in the same room for short periods.  

The thing that suprised me most, however, was that the one time when I would
have expected fear/aggression from the adult cat was during feeding.  During
feeding, however, Stanley was very passive but never showed any signs of
fear/aggression.  Are there any reasons for this?

Julie Durrell
Queen's University of Belfast +
Agricultural Research Institute of Northern Ireland