From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 10-MAY-1999 14:45:53.51 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: 2nd Request: Time required for humane euthanssia ofunwantedcompanion animals Mr. Walker: You don't know me and you do not have a right to imply what you did in your message. I am not a prejudiced sideliner --- I am fighting to resolve an issue in my community that is out of hand. If you don't have anything positive or helpful to say, you can leave your criticisms to yourself. I was only asking for information about something I am indeed concerned about and have a right to be concerned about. Elizabeth Chandler On Mon, 10 May 1999 18:52:33 +0100 Robin Walker wrote: > I think what WOULD have been disagreeable is a chorus > of prejudiced criticism from the sidelines. > > That you for your interesting inquiry, > > Robin From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 10-MAY-1999 14:47:22.87 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: 2nd Request: Time required for humane euthanssia of un Deb: Thank you for your reply. No, I did not have the opportunity to observe the euthanasia. I'm not sure I could have done so without an emotional response, anyway. It was painful enough to walk around the kennel and see all of the dogs, many of whom appeared depressed or sick. Elizabeth On Mon, 10 May 1999 13:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Deborah McWilliams wrote: > Hi Elizabeth! > This info helps but Robin Walker is correct - much more info is > needed. Species, size of animal, the drug being used, the expertise > of the person preparing and administering the drug. > Did you have an opportunity to observe? > > DebMcW > > > > From: Elizabeth Chandler > > To: Deborah McWilliams > > Copies to: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > Subject: Re: 2nd Request: Time required for humane euthanssia of un > > Date sent: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:50:56 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) > > Priority: NORMAL > > > Deborah: > > > > Thanks for your reply. Yes --- my understanding is that there is > > one person holding the animal and another injecting. Is 16 in one > > hour too fast under these circumstances? > > > > Elizabeth > > > > On Mon, 10 May 1999 11:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Deborah McWilliams > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Elizabeth! > > > Were the euthanasia's being done by one person? For example, > > > some societies have a room where euthanasia's are done but nore than > > > one team is at work. > > > > > > > > > DebMcW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date sent: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:03:36 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) > > > > From: Elizabeth Chandler > > > > Subject: 2nd Request: Time required for humane euthanssia of unwanted > > > > companion animals > > > > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > > > Priority: NORMAL > > > > > > > I sent out this question last week, but got no replies. I thought > > > > I'd give it another try ... > > > > > > > > > I visited my local animal shelter (government run) and toured the > > > > > facility. I was there for one hour. During the hour I was there, > > > > > 16 animals were euthanized. > > > > > > > > > > My question is this: Doesn't that seem like too many for one hour? > > > > > I mean, can it really be done humanely if each animal is handled in > > > > > only 3.75 minutes each? > > > > > > > > > > Is there any reference material out there about time > > > > > constraints/guidelines with regard to truly humane euthanization? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > Elizabeth Chandler > > > > > Center of Marine Biotechnology > > > > > University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute > > > > > chandler@umbi.umd.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > > > > > Deborah A. McWilliams > > > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > > > University of Guelph > > > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > > > Elizabeth Chandler > > Center of Marine Biotechnology > > University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute > > chandler@umbi.umd.edu > > > > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"arkabc@arkanimals.com" "Ark Animals" 10-MAY-1999 18:39:08.87 To: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: humane euthansia Although the national euthanasia rate has dropped from 20 million per year to somewhere around 8 million it is still a large problem. The euthanasia skill and handling of personnel at each agency will vary. The shelter related issue guidelines for humane euthanasia and shelter operations have been defined and are taught to US shelters by the American Humane Association in their Shelter Operations School, and also by the Humane Society of the United States. The National Animal Control Association and related agencies also conducts classes for officers and other staff as mandatory continuing education. Your inquiry could be directed to some of those broader agencies that set guidelines --and your answer could be more accurately obtained through that arena. Most have sites accessable via the net. Diana Guerrero At 04:42 PM 5/10/99 -0400, you wrote: Diana Guerrero AATT Ark Animals PO Box 1154 Escondido, CA 92033 arkabc@arkanimals.com Appointments at 800.818.7387 24 Hour Information 760.599.3697 "We Take Over Where Noah Left Off!" From: IN%"a.hargreaves@research.unimelb.edu.au" "Ann Hargreaves" 10-MAY-1999 20:09:25.06 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: farm animals in teaching A question to all those applied ethologists with a particular interest in animal welfare... I am currently developing standard operating procedures for the use of animals in the agriculture courses here (which range from short vocational courses for farm apprentices and trainees, through to diploma, degree and higher degree, and cover several widely-dispersed campuses). The aim is to develop species-specific guidelines as well as some overarching principles to (1) assist course coordinators in preparing their applications for approval of particular courses (2) to assist the ethics committee when they consider these applications. We also anticipate a number of other benefits from this exercise. Does anyone know of anything similar in teaching elsewhere? It has also been suggested to me that our concept of SOPs has much in common with welfare audits. Does anyone know of welfare audits being applied to teaching? I look forward to your responses. Ann Hargreaves ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Ann Hargreaves Office for Research and Graduate Studies University of Melbourne Phone: +61 3 9344 7617 Fax: +61 3 9347 6739 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 10-MAY-1999 21:16:18.24 To: IN%"a.hargreaves@research.unimelb.edu.au" "'Ann Hargreaves'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: farm animals in teaching Ann Hi how are you? Long time no see or hear! We are going through exactly the same thing here in Qld in relation to Animal Ethics. The 6th edition of the Australian Code of Practice for the Care and Use of Animals for Scientific Purposes recommends the establishment of SOPs, so I suggest that you might try your Uni Ethics Committees to see if they have anything. We have got a whole heap of information on SOPs for agriculture teaching and training from the TAFE colleges here. They use these as standards to assess competency (a reason for also using them in relation to Ethics too). We also have some SOPs from NSW (mainly for sheep and cattle) I think - but they are a pretty mixed bag in terms of the detail given. I have to say that whilst we consider the development of SOPs for what we do here in Qld a high priority it is the usual story of too much work and not enough staff! I would be happy to talk this issue over with you and may be able to provide you with some contacts (maybe there's the opportunity for States to actually collaborate on this?!) if you are interested. Get in touch if you are. Regards Carol Petherick TBC PO Box 5545 CQMC Qld 4702 tel: 07 49238200 fax: 07 49238222 e-mail: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au > -----Original Message----- > From: Ann Hargreaves [SMTP:a.hargreaves@research.unimelb.edu.au] > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 12:07 > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: farm animals in teaching > > A question to all those applied ethologists with a particular interest in > animal welfare... > > I am currently developing standard operating procedures for the use of > animals in the agriculture courses here (which range from short vocational > courses for farm apprentices and trainees, through to diploma, degree and > higher degree, and cover several widely-dispersed campuses). The aim is to > develop species-specific guidelines as well as some overarching principles > to (1) assist course coordinators in preparing their applications for > approval of particular courses (2) to assist the ethics committee when > they > consider these applications. We also anticipate a number of other benefits > from this exercise. > > Does anyone know of anything similar in teaching elsewhere? > > It has also been suggested to me that our concept of SOPs has much in > common with welfare audits. Does anyone know of welfare audits being > applied to teaching? > > I look forward to your responses. > > Ann Hargreaves > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr. Ann Hargreaves > Office for Research and Graduate Studies > University of Melbourne > Phone: +61 3 9344 7617 Fax: +61 3 9347 6739 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 11-MAY-1999 01:28:24.53 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Euthanasia 12 yo Collie. Robin Walker wrote: In the light of earlier talk on this list I would like you to know > that we do not "detach" or become "callous". I and my wife > discovered quite late in the day that we hold our breath when we do > this. > It gets harder as I get older. > Dear List:Since I've shared a part in stirring the pot on the "detaching during euthanasia" topic - I wanted to clarify that I extend *no* judgment to those who perform the necessary and compassionate act of euthanasia on companion animals - nor would I ever consider using the term "callous" as a description. Emotions in general seem especially raw on this list (and in the world at large) right now - Allow me to do a little housecleaning in my corner: Holding one's breath, choking back tears, or simply focusing hard on the task at hand (rather than the joining the grief of the family)....all seem to me to be various ways of momentarily detaching in order to perform the procedure well. A difference in definition and perspective, perhaps. Detachment does not have to be a 'bad word' - but, as Ione has pointed out - can become destructive if not dealt with. Whether one believes they should or should not, do or do not need to fully embrace their emotions during a euthanasia can only be a very personal matter. (For the record - of the few euthanasias I have performed, I have had to work *very* hard to 'detach', 'turn off' etc., in order to maintain 'professional composure'...all part of the learning process, I believe) ...An interesting note - Of this topic we have heard from several caring people and their experiences with dealing with the emotional challenges of euthanizing companion animals. However, little has been revealed from those who deal with the task of destroying "non-companion" animals. Donna Reynolds From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 11-MAY-1999 06:06:00.45 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds", IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Euthanasia 12 yo Collie. At 12:21 AM 5/11/99 -0700, Donna Reynolds wrote: >...An interesting note - Of this topic we have heard from several caring >people and their experiences with dealing with the emotional challenges >of euthanizing companion animals. A worthwhile read that addresses some of these topics: Arluke, A., & Sanders, C. (1996). Regarding animals. Philadelphia: Temple University Press. Sociologist Arluke spent time doing participant observations both in a veterinary hospital and in an animal labratory setting. >However, little has been revealed from those who deal with the task of >destroying "non-companion" animals. A really provocative piece: Herzog, H. A. (1989). Perspectives on animal use. ILAR News, 31(1), 4-7. Laboratories have "good" mice, "bad" mice, and "feeders". How do people make sense of this? Thanks for the thoughts, Donna. Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) PO Box 844 Arlee MT 59821-0844 USA 406-726-3342 arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 11-MAY-1999 09:00:37.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Euthanasia 12 yo Collie Well, I unfortunately had to have my sick cat (15.5 yrs, renal failure) euthanised yesterday, by injection, and I must say that her passage from life to death was unbeknownst to me and happened so quickly that after the vet removed the seringe needle, I asked, "How long will it take?" and she replied, "It's done." I don't have the impression it was painful, her body didn't even move, I didn't even know she was gone, she still felt alive. (My feelings of sorrow, however, have not disappeared as quite as quickly...) Chantal :-( From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 11-MAY-1999 11:00:27.73 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Euthanasia 12 yo Collie At 11:09 AM 5/11/99 -0400, Chantal Gaboury wrote: >Well, I unfortunately had to have my sick cat (15.5 yrs, renal failure) >euthanised yesterday, by injection, and I must say that her passage from >life to death was unbeknownst to me and happened so quickly that after >the vet removed the seringe needle, I asked, "How long will it take?" >and she replied, "It's done." I don't have the impression it was >painful, her body didn't even move, I didn't even know she was gone, she >still felt alive. (My feelings of sorrow, however, have not disappeared >as quite as quickly...) > >Chantal :-( First, I am sorry about your cat. I've had to have five of my dogs euthenized over the past thirty some years, and I still miss them. Not as much as I did at the time, but...... Anyway, I think that there seems to be two different topics here. One is the putting down of an "owned" dog and the other is what shelters do with strays. JMO for a change, of course. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 11-MAY-1999 11:23:53.11 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Euthanasia 12 yo Collie To Chantel, you have my sympathies, too. I too have had to euthanize a few old and very sick dogs (renal failure in one case, too). To Vivian, yes, my concern is with unowned or unwanted animals and their fate of euthanasia. Many of these animals never experience the pleasures of life with a loving owner and many of them are killed when they are very young. Then, too, are those cases of those who must live their full lives with an unkind or even cruel owner. Sometimes it just makes you want to give up on the human race altogether. I know euthanasia is a kind way to end the life of a sick/old animal. I feel the same way about humans --- we should have the right to euthanasia as well if we or our loved ones believe that is the right choice. I don't think euthanasia is the answer for the animal overpopulation problem. I know it must be done, for now, because there are so many unwanted cats and dogs. But I truly believe that education and legislation for spay/neuter programs are important steps toward the reversal of the status quo in this country with regard to homeless animals. Elizabeth On Tue, 11 May 1999 12:56:04 -0400 VIVIAN BREGMAN wrote: > At 11:09 AM 5/11/99 -0400, Chantal Gaboury wrote: > >Well, I unfortunately had to have my sick cat (15.5 yrs, renal failure) > >euthanised yesterday, by injection, and I must say that her passage from > >life to death was unbeknownst to me and happened so quickly that after > >the vet removed the seringe needle, I asked, "How long will it take?" > >and she replied, "It's done." I don't have the impression it was > >painful, her body didn't even move, I didn't even know she was gone, she > >still felt alive. (My feelings of sorrow, however, have not disappeared > >as quite as quickly...) > > > >Chantal :-( > > > First, I am sorry about your cat. > I've had to have five of my dogs euthenized over the past thirty some > years, and I still miss them. > Not as much as I did at the time, but...... > > Anyway, I think that there seems to be two different topics here. > One is the putting down of an "owned" dog and the other is what shelters do > with strays. > > JMO for a change, of course. > Vivian > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > interested in everything to do with science, > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 11-MAY-1999 12:17:22.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"cgaboury@total.net" CC: Subj: RE: Euthanasia 12 yo Collie I scraped my last pet off the road about 25 years ago. I decided watching wildlife was an emotionally safer way to go. I am at a point now where I do not want to feel responsible for taking the life of any animal even if it is justified. Paul >>> Chantal Gaboury 05/11/99 11:09AM >>> Well, I unfortunately had to have my sick cat (15.5 yrs, renal failure) euthanised yesterday, by injection, and I must say that her passage from life to death was unbeknownst to me and happened so quickly that after the vet removed the seringe needle, I asked, "How long will it take?" and she replied, "It's done." I don't have the impression it was painful, her body didn't even move, I didn't even know she was gone, she still felt alive. (My feelings of sorrow, however, have not disappeared as quite as quickly...) Chantal :-( From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 11-MAY-1999 13:19:08.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: euthanasia I have been present for many euthanasias (pets and research animals) because of my work and because I adopt a lot of unwanted animals that usually are elderly and/or sick or have short lifespans (e.g., rodents). I suscribe to Temple Grandin's approach where the animal, regardless of origin or destination, must be treated with respect and consideration. Their death should also be acknowledged if only for a short pause in one's day. I am fortunate to be at a university where this approach is condoned and promoted. My supervisor is particularly wonderful about this. I am also fortunate to have a vet(s) that regularly accomodates me and my animals with respect, time and consideration when I bring in my animals (pet or research) for euthanasia. I am always present during the euthanasia and, sometimes, I cry. Is this emotionally exhausting? No - because I am satisfied that I did my best for the animal during its time with me. My presence at the euthanasia is not only a ritual for me, but it often provides the animal with a known element in a strange situation. Do I think animals "know" death is awaiting? No - I do think a strange situation with strange people is very stressful for them and for some species more than others. My presence may be the last thing I can do for them. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 11-MAY-1999 15:38:19.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: 2nd Request: Time required for humane euthanssia of un This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_aKPmVg2WDD0Fa9KVo598dg) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I have only just picked up this thread, but I completely agree with = Robin about euthanasia. I can understand why Elizabeth is distressed by the fact that so many = animals are being done away with as if they were a waste product, but = that is a separate issue from the manner of their disposal. I am sure that any trained individual could euthanase dogs without = causing them any distress even at the rate you suggest. However, to know whether it is being done properly it is important to = see what procedure is used. Euthanasia should be performed quickly and efficiently.=20 It doesn't need to be turned into a ritual. If you want to do something about euthanasia Elizabeth, then look into = why the animals are there in the first place, and tackle that problem if = you can. Jon --Boundary_(ID_aKPmVg2WDD0Fa9KVo598dg) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
I have only just picked up this = thread, but I=20 completely agree with Robin about euthanasia.
 
I can understand why Elizabeth is = distressed by=20 the fact that so many animals are being done away with as if they were a = waste=20 product, but that is a separate issue from the manner of their=20 disposal.
 
I am sure that any trained = individual could=20 euthanase dogs without causing them any distress even at the rate you=20 suggest.
However, to know whether it is being = done=20 properly it is important to see what procedure is used.
 
Euthanasia=20 should be performed quickly and efficiently.=20
It = doesn't need to be=20 turned into a ritual.
 
If you want to do something about euthanasia = Elizabeth, then=20 look into why the animals are there in the first place, and tackle that = problem=20 if you can.
 
Jon
--Boundary_(ID_aKPmVg2WDD0Fa9KVo598dg)-- From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 11-MAY-1999 15:52:52.89 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" Subj: Time required for humane euthanssia of un Thank you for your reply. That is exactly what I am doing. I am working for changes in legislature and otherwise. I did not mean to infer that I think that euthanizing these animals, when there is nothing else that can be done about them, is wrong. I am trying to reduce the number euthanized by proper and responsible pet ownership. However, the research I have seen suggests that there are MANY instances of poorly trained technicians who administer the drug incorrectly or how handle the animals badly during the euthanasia event and this can result in addition and unnecessary discomfort for the animal. This is why I asked in the first place --- not to criticize those who must euthanize but to find out how I can gauge the practice as it is done in my county. Elizabeth On Tue, 11 May 1999 22:29:25 +0100 Jon Bowen wrote: > Hi, > > I have only just picked up this thread, but I completely agree with Robin about euthanasia. > > I can understand why Elizabeth is distressed by the fact that so many animals are being done away with as if they were a waste product, but that is a separate issue from the manner of their disposal. > > I am sure that any trained individual could euthanase dogs without causing them any distress even at the rate you suggest. > However, to know whether it is being done properly it is important to see what procedure is used. > > Euthanasia should be performed quickly and efficiently. > It doesn't need to be turned into a ritual. > > If you want to do something about euthanasia Elizabeth, then look into why the animals are there in the first place, and tackle that problem if you can. > > Jon Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 11-MAY-1999 17:01:01.29 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "'Donna Reynolds'", IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Euthanasia All I work with cattle - most of which end their days at an abattoir. I nearly responded before when the issue of animals knowing what was going to happen to them was raised. Studies have been made of the effect of slaughtering animals in the presence of others and there is no evidence that the animals studied react adversely to the slaughtering of a conspecific in their presence. Having said that there is evidence for pheromones in urine (and maybe blood too) that can induce a state of fear in conspecifics. Therefore, the presence of urine and blood from an animal that has been frightened is likely to disturb/distress others that detect it. I imagine, also, that the general noise (machinery), bellowing, human voices at an abattoir would cause fear, but I certainly believe that these animals have no concept of their own mortality. I've seen the person responsible for stunning the cattle having trouble positioning the captive bolt because certain cattle have been so curious that they are trying to sniff and nuzzle the captive bolt and hand of the operator. I have been to the abattoir with many of my experimental animals and have followed them along the race and stood with them at the 'knocking box' and watched as they've been stunned and rolled-out onto the slaughter floor. I admit to being inconsistent in my response to observing this; for some animals (those from which I'd sustained or narrowly avoided injury) I was quite happy to see them despatched, but for others (ones to which I'd become particularly attached - for a variety of reasons) I had to choke back tears! I've also had discussions with the staff who do the stunning and some have told me that they have to detach themselves in order to cope with the job. For others it is just not an issue; they have no empathy with the animals. Some have told me that they will sometimes have farmers there who will bring their animals up to the 'knocking box' (this again seems to be animals with which the farmers have developed 'special' relationships, such as favourite bulls or cows) and have seen them shed tears for the animals. I guess I regard euthanasia as a 'plus' - provided it is done rapidly and humanely - if it prevents potential suffering (and I consider that unwanted companion animals in a shelter are likely to experience suffering to varying degrees). I guess I also consider euthanasia (slaughter) of animals for their products to be inevitable - at least for some time to come - so it's not a great moral dilemma for me. What is the moral dilemma for me is the way that non-companion animals (and in many cases, companion animals) are reared, handled, 'mutilated', treated etc before they are euthanased. Carol Petherick > -----Original Message----- > From: Donna Reynolds [SMTP:dreyn@sirius.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 5:22 > To: Robin Walker > Cc: Applied Ethology Network (E-mail) > Subject: Re: Euthanasia 12 yo Collie. > > > > Robin Walker wrote: In the light of earlier talk on this list I would > like you to know > > > that we do not "detach" or become "callous". I and my wife > > discovered quite late in the day that we hold our breath when we do > > this. > > It gets harder as I get older. > > > > > Dear List:Since I've shared a part in stirring the pot on the "detaching > during euthanasia" topic - I wanted to clarify that I extend *no* > judgment to those who perform the necessary and compassionate act of > euthanasia on companion animals - nor would I ever consider using the > term "callous" as a description. > Emotions in general seem especially raw on this list (and in the world > at large) right now - Allow me to do a little housecleaning in my > corner: > > Holding one's breath, choking back tears, or simply focusing hard on the > task at hand (rather than the joining the grief of the family)....all > seem to me to be various ways of momentarily detaching in order to > perform the procedure well. A difference in definition and > perspective, perhaps. > Detachment does not have to be a 'bad word' - but, as Ione has pointed > out - can become destructive if not dealt with. > > Whether one believes they should or should not, do or do not need to > fully embrace their emotions during a euthanasia can only be a very > personal matter. > (For the record - of the few euthanasias I have performed, I have had to > work *very* hard to 'detach', 'turn off' etc., in order to maintain > 'professional composure'...all part of the learning process, I believe) > > ...An interesting note - Of this topic we have heard from several caring > people and their experiences with dealing with the emotional challenges > of euthanizing companion animals. > However, little has been revealed from those who deal with the task of > destroying "non-companion" animals. > > Donna Reynolds > From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 11-MAY-1999 17:18:01.18 To: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "'peggy shunick'", IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds", IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Euthanasia 12 yo Collie. Peggy You ask how people make sense of having different standards for the same animals (The Moral Status of Mice by Herzog). That too is a fact of life and is no different for us having different values for all sorts of things in life. As part of our training in Animal Ethics here in Qld we give an example of chaining up a dog with shelter and water but no food and exercise, and ask people how long they think a dog should be left. You would be amazed at the range of responses from people of very similar backgrounds (eg from 0 hours to 5 days!) (I should point out that by law here you must exercise dogs that have been chained for at least 2 hours in every 24). Imagine the difference in opinions/beliefs that you would get from people of widely differing backgrounds. Another exercise we do is list all the factors that contribute to this variation in how we regard animals. Some of the things we've come up with are: experience with animals religion age (of people and animals) gender (of people and animals) how cute and cuddly the animals are what is the value of a particular animal to you ($ or otherwise) whether the animal has been labelled a 'pest' species does the animal evoke fear How similar to humans is the animal. I'm sure you could all add dozens more to this list. So having different standards for the way we treat different animals (or even the same animals) is just a part of human nature and culture, and the bottom line is the value that each individual person places on each individual animal. This is way it is so difficult to get communities (States and Countries) to reach agreement on standards of care and treatment of animals. Carol Petherick > -----Original Message----- > From: peggy shunick [SMTP:arl3342@montana.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 3:42 > To: Donna Reynolds; Robin Walker > Cc: Applied Ethology Network (E-mail) > Subject: Re: Euthanasia 12 yo Collie. > > At 12:21 AM 5/11/99 -0700, Donna Reynolds wrote: > > >...An interesting note - Of this topic we have heard from several caring > >people and their experiences with dealing with the emotional challenges > >of euthanizing companion animals. > > A worthwhile read that addresses some of these topics: Arluke, A., & > Sanders, C. (1996). Regarding animals. Philadelphia: Temple University > Press. > > Sociologist Arluke spent time doing participant observations both in a > veterinary hospital and in an animal labratory setting. > > >However, little has been revealed from those who deal with the task of > >destroying "non-companion" animals. > > A really provocative piece: Herzog, H. A. (1989). Perspectives on animal > use. ILAR News, 31(1), 4-7. > > Laboratories have "good" mice, "bad" mice, and "feeders". How do people > make sense of this? > > Thanks for the thoughts, Donna. > Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick > BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) > PO Box 844 > Arlee MT 59821-0844 > USA > > 406-726-3342 > arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"avillela@fisio.icb1.usp.br" "Ana Lucia" 11-MAY-1999 19:26:48.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology'", IN%"carolina@cb.ufrn.br" "'Carolina Azevedo'", IN%"dkferraz@aquarius.com.br" "'Daniela Ferraz'", IN%"daniwey@fisio.icb.usp.br" "'Daniela Wey'", IN%"ggenaro@rfi.fmrp.usp.br" "'Gelson Genaro' CC: Subj: FW: divulguem Para que voces divulguem aos interessados que voces conhe=E7am. Obrigada=20 Ana Lucia =20 CURSO DE CAMPO EM PRIMATOLOGIA - TECNICAS DE OBSERVACAO, REGISTRO E ANALISE DO COMPORTAMENTO DE PRIMATAS NO CAMPO. PROF: STEPHEN FERRARI LOCAL: CENTRO DE PRIMATOLOGIA DA UNB - INSTITUTO DE BIOLOGIA PER=CDODO: 07 A 20 DE JUNHO CARGA HORARIA: 60 HORAS (INTENSIVO)/ EQUIVALENCIA DE 04 CREDITOS PARA A POS-GRADUACAO. TAXA DE INSCRICAO: R$ 60,00 (estudantes) R$ 100,00 (profissionais) INFORMACOES/ INSCRICOES: 061 347.1400/ 307.1777/ 307. 2884 E-MAIL: exe@unb.br =20 From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 12-MAY-1999 01:44:25.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_nWv5yMg2ZwR8w9NX7gKDjQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I am sure things do get done wrong; can you give details of the research = you have found that supports this.=20 I am very interested in companion animal welfare and any references you = can give me would be great. Jon --Boundary_(ID_nWv5yMg2ZwR8w9NX7gKDjQ) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
I am sure things do get done wrong; = can you give=20 details of the research you have found that supports this.
I am very interested in companion = animal welfare=20 and any references you can give me would be great.
 
Jon
--Boundary_(ID_nWv5yMg2ZwR8w9NX7gKDjQ)-- From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 12-MAY-1999 02:28:52.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Technique is Everything "You not like?" he lisped. "I most certainly do not" I gasped. "He" was a 3rd Dan Black belt Judo instructor of the Tokyo Police. ("They always were"). The proposal I objected to was being rendered insensible by compression of my neck. The method apparently was to drawn the judogi (that is the white jacket) collar across the throat until the victim dropped to the floor. I had noticed, you see, that one of two things happened. The stranglee either feel down "out cold" within 3 seconds or was nastily semi strangled for a quarter of a minute until the strangler desisted. They might then try again. I left the laughing, gasping, dropping, red to blue with bulging eyes idiots to their sport and departed. I went as third year medical student to my physiology books and decided that the intuitive Garotters were attempting to apply the linear pressure of the collar hem simultaneously to the carotid sinuses of both sides of the neck. The resultant sharp recorded "rise" in blood pressure would result in reflex massive pressure lowering responses in the autonomic nervous system. So if you hit lucky down they went. If you missed the "pressure point" on one or both sides the unseemly struggle of slow asphyxiation ensued. I figured my brain needed oxygen at all times. "They" went on to kill people from time to time in competitions. This was because they tried the technique on recumbent victims. We are smart. We know that you anaesthetise (or shoot) victims who are standing. That way you know how things are going because they fall down. Without this helpful sign it is more difficult to gauge the progress. The "catch" for the idiot garotters was the victim on the floor had to submit by slapping his hand on the tatami (that is the matting on the floor). Of course the successfully garotted (carotid pressured) stranglee was unable to submit. The rest is history and false coroner's reports. Lions and other big cats do something similar and in a similarly hit or miss fashion. They ideally manage to crush windpipe circulation and everything if the grip is "good". They may have to munch around to secure the appropriate angle. That is the natural way. We have improved on it but tend to revile the best practices such as the Guillotine, or the Sochet's knife because they make us uncomfortable. The assassin who severs your carotids (jugulars and trachea) in one expert slice probably performs EUthanasia. The unskilled botcher performs DYSthanasia. The problem is of course mainly in the eye and memory of the beholder. I have sat in the comfort of my chair and watched televised lions etc dispatching prey with varying degrees of expedition. I am unfazed because there is no foetid breath in my face (discounting my wife's Border Terrier gazing up at my plate). The other spectators (the Zebras) particularly interest me on these occasions. I have noticed that they watch the death of their conspecifics in a most interesting way. The angle of the neck and head, the prick of the ears and the eloquent eyes all betoken great concern. They do not seem to be afraid and be "imagining" themselves in a similar predicament. Indeed they will quickly apply themselves to their main interest which seems to be the next mouthful of grass. It is all a matter of eyeline, vectors and flight distances as we know. For my part the euthanasia of large animals should rather excel the best practice of Nature and her various instruments. They should not suffer by husbandry as much as they might in the wild and most desirably not at all. Incidentally as a historical observation I think people may have enjoyed euthanasia (in the sense of better deaths) more often and with less suffering two hundred years ago than sometimes is the case today. The patient in extremis might be relieved of a pint of blood, given opium and urged to drink plenty of hot water. Failure to improve might lead to daily repetition of the prescription and early death. More vigorous bleeding, more opium and more hot water being the proper response to lack of recovery. (It was the practice among poorer folk in default of medical attenders to rush the bed with a bolster and sit as a family upon the loved ones head. So I am told.) Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 12-MAY-1999 02:44:54.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: 2nd Request: Time required for humane euthanssia of un This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_n7zsEMKoHsH/05lEsI30xw) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Elizabeth, I am sure things do get done wrong; can you give details of the research = you have found that supports this.=20 I am very interested in companion animal welfare and any references you = can give me would be great. =20 Jon --Boundary_(ID_n7zsEMKoHsH/05lEsI30xw) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Elizabeth,
 
I am sure things do get done wrong; = can you give=20 details of the research you have found that supports this.
I am very interested in companion = animal welfare=20 and any references you can give me would be great.
 
Jon
--Boundary_(ID_n7zsEMKoHsH/05lEsI30xw)-- From: IN%"Dr.Norbert.Brockmann@t-online.de" 12-MAY-1999 04:15:16.06 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog with seperation anx. Dear Mike Toscano, Seperation anxiety in dogs is a relatively commen problem and the good news are, that the chances of helping dog and owner are usually very good. The best solution of course would be to see an experienced animal behaviourist, as there or more than one courses for destructiveness in the absence of the owner and therapy depends on the diagnoses. Seperation anxiaty normaly responds very well to the following programm: - strengthening the independence of the animal, decresing the fixation on the owner, isolating it for appropriate times while the owner is at home. - redirecting the kind of occupation, using food and toys like the kong-toy, training dog systematically to be happy to use these toys also in the absense of the owner. - giving out-time signals. - giving it a safe place. - Making the departure and return unpredictable and less painfull. These are the main points. Of course there is more one can do and there are also drugs agaist anxiety available. But they are rarely necessary and one would be illadvised to use them without behaviour therapy. A good couceling (how to apply the methods) is definately asked for. The aim is not to suppress destructiveness but to anihilate the reason for the anxiety. We also have to ask: are the general conditiones under which the dog is kept appropriate? For how long was the dog kept on its own? For how long was the puppy kept in the cage? A dog can and should stay for some time alone, it can also stay for some time in a cage (properly done dogs can enjoy this). (To leave a dog, specially a puppy, for a whole working day in a cage though would be asking for trouble as well as it has to be considered cruel.) How much exercise and stimulation dose it get? Generally, dogs who turn up with this kind of problem are very loveable and friendly creatures and so are the ownwers, otherwise there would not be that problem. They both suffer. As said before chances to solve the problem are very good, but tell your freiend not do it half-heardedly but to get propper counceling. Good luck Norbert From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 12-MAY-1999 07:43:47.35 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" Subj: RE: 2nd Request: Time required for humane euthanssia of un Jon: The primary source was B.J. Ellis' book, Paws for Thought. I don't have the book anymore (I checked it out from the library and have since returned it), but I believe she provided references supporting her assertions at the back of the book. She interviewed former Administrators of shelters and euthanasia technicians and, while many were found to be skilled and caring, there were those whose lack of skill caused undue pain to the animal during the euthanasia event. She did point out that those who were unskilled were not any less caring, however. In other words, they didn't mean to hurt the animal. Presumably, they eventually got better at their job. This is probably true in any field, but particularly in animal euthanasia, mistakes are very costly to the animal if the animal suffers unnecessary discomfort. Elizabeth On Wed, 12 May 1999 09:41:46 +0100 Jon Bowen wrote: > Hi Elizabeth, > > I am sure things do get done wrong; can you give details of the research you have found that supports this. > I am very interested in companion animal welfare and any references you can give me would be great. > > Jon Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 12-MAY-1999 07:52:56.37 To: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)", IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "'peggy shunick'", IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds", IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" Subj: Chaining of Dogs Peggy and List: This brings up another point: I am trying to get legislative change against the chaining of dogs. I have research correlating the high number of fatal bite incidents (dogs biting humans, that is) to chained, unneutered male breeds. I am using that research to support legislature or animal control regulations that defines chaining as cruel (and also mandatory spay/neutering). BUT, I could really use more references for support against chaining, either as a cruelty or as dangerous (to humans). Does anyone have anything on this? Thanks. Elizabeth On Wed, 12 May 1999 09:15:32 +1000 "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" wrote: > Peggy > You ask how people make sense of having different standards for the same > animals (The Moral Status of Mice by Herzog). That too is a fact of life > and is no different for us having different values for all sorts of things > in life. As part of our training in Animal Ethics here in Qld we give an > example of chaining up a dog with shelter and water but no food and > exercise, and ask people how long they think a dog should be left. You > would be amazed at the range of responses from people of very similar > backgrounds (eg from 0 hours to 5 days!) (I should point out that by law > here you must exercise dogs that have been chained for at least 2 hours in > every 24). > > Imagine the difference in opinions/beliefs that you would get from people of > widely differing backgrounds. > > Another exercise we do is list all the factors that contribute to this > variation in how we regard animals. Some of the things we've come up with > are: > experience with animals > religion > age (of people and animals) > gender (of people and animals) > how cute and cuddly the animals are > what is the value of a particular animal to you ($ or otherwise) > whether the animal has been labelled a 'pest' species > does the animal evoke fear > How similar to humans is the animal. > > I'm sure you could all add dozens more to this list. > > So having different standards for the way we treat different animals (or > even the same animals) is just a part of human nature and culture, and the > bottom line is the value that each individual person places on each > individual animal. This is way it is so difficult to get communities > (States and Countries) to reach agreement on standards of care and treatment > of animals. > > Carol Petherick > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: peggy shunick [SMTP:arl3342@montana.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 3:42 > > To: Donna Reynolds; Robin Walker > > Cc: Applied Ethology Network (E-mail) > > Subject: Re: Euthanasia 12 yo Collie. > > > > At 12:21 AM 5/11/99 -0700, Donna Reynolds wrote: > > > > >...An interesting note - Of this topic we have heard from several caring > > >people and their experiences with dealing with the emotional challenges > > >of euthanizing companion animals. > > > > A worthwhile read that addresses some of these topics: Arluke, A., & > > Sanders, C. (1996). Regarding animals. Philadelphia: Temple University > > Press. > > > > Sociologist Arluke spent time doing participant observations both in a > > veterinary hospital and in an animal labratory setting. > > > > >However, little has been revealed from those who deal with the task of > > >destroying "non-companion" animals. > > > > A really provocative piece: Herzog, H. A. (1989). Perspectives on animal > > use. ILAR News, 31(1), 4-7. > > > > Laboratories have "good" mice, "bad" mice, and "feeders". How do people > > make sense of this? > > > > Thanks for the thoughts, Donna. > > Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick > > BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) > > PO Box 844 > > Arlee MT 59821-0844 > > USA > > > > 406-726-3342 > > arl3342@montana.com Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"S.Chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk" "Sarah Chaplin" 12-MAY-1999 09:18:10.27 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Weather prediction and cows The chap from the Kirkintilloch Herald has been on the phone again and this time he says he has been in contact with the National Meteorlogical Office and they say that sheep are better for predicting the weather than cows - apparently they come out with a 48% success rate (although I'm not sure what the 48% refers to!). Anyway, I've been thinking . . . I now know that the cows they have been flying over are black and white, so they are probably dairy cows. Would dairy cows be under greater pressure to continue grazing than beef cows? Would beef cows therefore be better for predicting the weather and would dairy cows be more likely to graze through a showery spell??? Anyway, it's just a bit of fun but if you've any ideas . . . Sarah Sarah Chaplin Dairy Health Unit SAC Veterinary Science Division Auchincruive AYR KA6 5AE Tel.01292 520318 Fax.01292 521069 Email.s.chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 12-MAY-1999 09:20:43.30 To: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler", IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)", IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "'peggy shunick'", IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds", IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs Elizabeth, Your best reference (which I suspect you may already have) for biting behavior in tethered dogs is Gershman, K. A., Sacks, J. J., & Wright, J. C. (1994) Which dogs bite? A case-control study of risk factors. Pediatrics, 93(6), 913-917. However, the study relies on correlation which cannot account for causality. I believe dogs weighing greater than 40# were also implicated, so perhaps we should not have large dogs either. :) Folks at the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) were recently helpful in placing tethering within revisions of the US's Animal Welfare Act (AWA) as a practice which is unacceptable in applications covered by the AWA. Personally, I'd rather see dogs tethered instead of running at large, another common human practice in the United States. :0 Is Erica Peachy out there? I'd love to get her study of behavior changes in spayed bitches. Oh, shooooot!!! Any suggestions for what to do if you pour lamb formula instead of milk on your oatmeal? Peggy At 09:50 AM 5/12/99 -0400, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: >Peggy and List: > >This brings up another point: I am trying to get legislative change >against the chaining of dogs. I have research correlating the high >number of fatal bite incidents (dogs biting humans, that is) to >chained, unneutered male breeds. I am using that research to >support legislature or animal control regulations that defines >chaining as cruel (and also mandatory spay/neutering). BUT, I >could really use more references for support against chaining, >either as a cruelty or as dangerous (to humans). Does anyone have >anything on this? > >Thanks. > >Elizabeth > >On Wed, 12 May 1999 09:15:32 +1000 "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" > wrote: > >> Peggy >> You ask how people make sense of having different standards for the same >> animals (The Moral Status of Mice by Herzog). That too is a fact of life >> and is no different for us having different values for all sorts of things >> in life. As part of our training in Animal Ethics here in Qld we give an >> example of chaining up a dog with shelter and water but no food and >> exercise, and ask people how long they think a dog should be left. You >> would be amazed at the range of responses from people of very similar >> backgrounds (eg from 0 hours to 5 days!) (I should point out that by law >> here you must exercise dogs that have been chained for at least 2 hours in >> every 24). >> >> Imagine the difference in opinions/beliefs that you would get from people of >> widely differing backgrounds. >> >> Another exercise we do is list all the factors that contribute to this >> variation in how we regard animals. Some of the things we've come up with >> are: >> experience with animals >> religion >> age (of people and animals) >> gender (of people and animals) >> how cute and cuddly the animals are >> what is the value of a particular animal to you ($ or otherwise) >> whether the animal has been labelled a 'pest' species >> does the animal evoke fear >> How similar to humans is the animal. >> >> I'm sure you could all add dozens more to this list. >> >> So having different standards for the way we treat different animals (or >> even the same animals) is just a part of human nature and culture, and the >> bottom line is the value that each individual person places on each >> individual animal. This is way it is so difficult to get communities >> (States and Countries) to reach agreement on standards of care and treatment >> of animals. >> >> Carol Petherick >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: peggy shunick [SMTP:arl3342@montana.com] >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 3:42 >> > To: Donna Reynolds; Robin Walker >> > Cc: Applied Ethology Network (E-mail) >> > Subject: Re: Euthanasia 12 yo Collie. >> > >> > At 12:21 AM 5/11/99 -0700, Donna Reynolds wrote: >> > >> > >...An interesting note - Of this topic we have heard from several caring >> > >people and their experiences with dealing with the emotional challenges >> > >of euthanizing companion animals. >> > >> > A worthwhile read that addresses some of these topics: Arluke, A., & >> > Sanders, C. (1996). Regarding animals. Philadelphia: Temple University >> > Press. >> > >> > Sociologist Arluke spent time doing participant observations both in a >> > veterinary hospital and in an animal labratory setting. >> > >> > >However, little has been revealed from those who deal with the task of >> > >destroying "non-companion" animals. >> > >> > A really provocative piece: Herzog, H. A. (1989). Perspectives on animal >> > use. ILAR News, 31(1), 4-7. >> > >> > Laboratories have "good" mice, "bad" mice, and "feeders". How do people >> > make sense of this? >> > >> > Thanks for the thoughts, Donna. >> > Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick >> > BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) >> > PO Box 844 >> > Arlee MT 59821-0844 >> > USA >> > >> > 406-726-3342 >> > arl3342@montana.com > >Elizabeth Chandler >Center of Marine Biotechnology >University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute >chandler@umbi.umd.edu > > Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) PO Box 844 Arlee MT 59821-0844 USA 406-726-3342 arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 12-MAY-1999 10:11:38.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Time required for humane euthanssia of un Hi Elizabeth! > ownership. However, the research I have seen suggests that there > are MANY instances of poorly trained technicians who administer the > drug incorrectly or how handle the animals badly during the > euthanasia event and this can result in addition and unnecessary > discomfort for the animal. This is why I asked in the first place There are other factors, Elizabeth: 1) Someone just learning. 2) Psychological "numbing" (people have a tendency to protect their psyches) DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 12-MAY-1999 10:14:32.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Robo-dog Goodness! Look what my roommate just sent. P >Subject: Robo-dog > >well we can all get rid of our dogs now :^) >http://www.cnn.com/TECH/ptech/9905/11/robot.pet.ap/ Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) PO Box 844 Arlee MT 59821-0844 USA 406-726-3342 arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 12-MAY-1999 10:18:03.83 To: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" Subj: RE: 2nd Request: Time required for humane euthanssia of un The problem is to get trustworthy information. Mrs N.De Cleyn, a vet student of mine made an enquiry with 27 Flemish shelters last year for her thesis. One of the questions concerned euthanasia. (There is a 1-page English summary.) Euthanasia is only performed by vets. Dogs: 81% IM or IV tranquillizer, Pentobarbital, Xylazine of neuromuscular blocker followed by IV or IC T61 11% only a IM neuromuscular blocker others: hypnotic PO followed by T61, only T61 (only 2 shelters) Adult cats: 48% chloroform (nearly 100% of the kittens) Also often IM tranquillizer followed by IV or IC T61 Neuromuscular blocker and Pentobarbital IV or IC (4%) Only neuromuscular blocker IM (12%) Sometimes T61 IP None declared to use the bullet. However, various people told outside the interview that one shelter does use it regularly. A couple of years ago there was a court case because a shelter in another part of the country was accused of shooting the animals at a distance. As president of the Animal Welfare Council I am not afraid of witnessing that I have been shocked by the aggressive lobbying of one shelter who tried to hamper the start of a working group on euthanasia techniques because it feared that it would conclude that shooting should be forbidden. A bullet is cheaper than an injection. There are a lot of magnificent people devoting hours to working in shelters (or other welfare organizations), but there are also sharks. I'm not the only person in Europe who has been quite disappointed... Prof.Dr.F.O.OEdberg Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: +32-(0)9-2647849 From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 12-MAY-1999 10:45:48.72 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Time required for humane euthanssia of un Deborah: Yes, I understand. Those must certainly be allowed for and considered. But, my point is that the animal shouldn't have to suffer because of these things. A new learner's mistakes would never be tolerated if they cause more pain to human beings. A detached person's behavior would not be tolerated with human beings, either. I don't consider dogs or cats to be any less eligible for humane treatment than I do humans. So, while people do have to learn and by learning sometimes make mistakes, and while it's bad enough that the animal must lose its life, I hate for them to have to suffer unduely during the process. Elizabeth wrote: > Hi Elizabeth! > There are other factors, Elizabeth: > > 1) Someone just learning. > 2) Psychological "numbing" (people have a tendency to protect > their psyches) > > DebMcW > > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 12-MAY-1999 14:07:19.92 To: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" CC: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds", IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Euthanasia 12 yo Collie. Yes, I agree with Peggy's recommendation of Arluke and Sanders' book, "Regarding Animals." Of particular interest is an essay which addresses the psychology of shelter workers who kill healthy companion animals as part of their job description. They follow the process of gradual indoctrination that such employees undergo in order to juggle "love and death" in their heads and hearts. The end result is dehumanization and the adoption of an "institutional self" as the worker learns to kill without guilt. A revealing quote reads: " You will want to care for the animals, but will have to kill some them...when you don't want to. It seems so bad, but we'll make it good in your head" (Shelter manager, in Euthanasia Workshop). They also include a fascinating article on nazi attitudes towards animal welfare and vegetarianism. Many nazis were highly protective of animals and disdained hunting as a sport. Paradoxically, though, the authors mention how elite nazi ss were trained side by side with a dog, whom they had to ceremonially kill by breaking its neck at the end of their course of training in order to receive their stripes. This cruel ritual act presumably served to prove the soldier's loyalty and devotion to the cause. Strong stuff worth taking a look at for the sake of perspective on the ethics of euthanasia, especially with respect to the power of institutional and peer influences to mitigate or annul our personal and moral responsibilities when it comes to making decisions to preserve or end animal life. Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services Philadelphia, PA peggy shunick wrote: > At 12:21 AM 5/11/99 -0700, Donna Reynolds wrote: > > >...An interesting note - Of this topic we have heard from several caring > >people and their experiences with dealing with the emotional challenges > >of euthanizing companion animals. > > A worthwhile read that addresses some of these topics: Arluke, A., & > Sanders, C. (1996). Regarding animals. Philadelphia: Temple University Press. > > Sociologist Arluke spent time doing participant observations both in a > veterinary hospital and in an animal labratory setting. > > >However, little has been revealed from those who deal with the task of > >destroying "non-companion" animals. > > A really provocative piece: Herzog, H. A. (1989). Perspectives on animal > use. ILAR News, 31(1), 4-7. > > Laboratories have "good" mice, "bad" mice, and "feeders". How do people > make sense of this? > > Thanks for the thoughts, Donna. > Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick > BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) > PO Box 844 > Arlee MT 59821-0844 > USA > > 406-726-3342 > arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 12-MAY-1999 16:30:03.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs At 09:50 AM 5/12/99 -0400, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: >Peggy and List: > >This brings up another point: I am trying to get legislative change >against the chaining of dogs. I have research correlating the high >number of fatal bite incidents (dogs biting humans, that is) to >chained, unneutered male breeds. I am using that research to >support legislature or animal control regulations that defines >chaining as cruel (and also mandatory spay/neutering). BUT, I >could really use more references for support against chaining, >either as a cruelty or as dangerous (to humans). Does anyone have >anything on this? > >Thanks. > >Elizabeth While I don't doubt that your sentiments are in the right place, let me tell you about my town. There is a law on the books that a dog may not be chained outside without a dog house or access to the inside of the house. I had a client with a large Lab. Lovely dog, devoted owner. Every day she would chain up the dog outside on a thirty foot chain for fifteen minutes so she could wash the kitchen floor. Unfortunately, because of the law (above) a neighbor, with whom she was having a difference of opinion, kept reporting her to the police and she got tickets. The difference of opinion had to do with the neighbors noisy parties and the reporting thereof. So she had to lock the dog in the bathroom for fifteen minutes, until the kitchen floor dried. Dog was not happy, bathroom was really small. Here's a law with laudable intentions, that was really making a problem for her. BTW, I wonder about this idea of mandatory spay/neutering. I have many friends who show their dogs in dog shows. They don't breed them, but cannot show them if they are not intact. Just how would this law work?? Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 12-MAY-1999 18:06:16.51 To: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "'Elizabeth Chandler'", IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Time required for humane euthanasia of un Elizabeth I have to disagree with your suggestion that a learner's mistakes would not be tolerated with humans - I have been caused 'unnecessary' pain on several occasions when a 'learner' has been injecting me or taking a blood sample. The learners have to learn and at some stage they have to try their technique out on other humans! I admit that in some instances I was told that the person didn't have much experience, but in other cases I was not (but I assume they were learners as they were being closely supervised and monitored). Re. the non tolerance of a detached person, I've had medical consultations and treatments from some very detached medical staff. Obviously, if you're in the position to do so you can go elsewhere, but if you are ill (and have been on a waiting list for months to get the treatment!) then you have no choice but to tolerate it. Detachment and incompetence are not necessarily related or vice versa (as I have discovered). Carol Petherick > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth Chandler [SMTP:chandler@umbi.umd.edu] > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 2:44 > To: Deborah McWilliams > Cc: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Time required for humane euthanssia of un > > Deborah: > > Yes, I understand. Those must certainly be allowed for and > considered. But, my point is that the animal shouldn't have to > suffer because of these things. A new learner's mistakes would > never be tolerated if they cause more pain to human beings. A > detached person's behavior would not be tolerated with human > beings, either. I don't consider dogs or cats to be any less > eligible for humane treatment than I do humans. So, while people > do have to learn and by learning sometimes make mistakes, and while > it's bad enough that the animal must lose its life, I hate for them > to have to suffer unduely during the process. > > Elizabeth > > wrote: > > > Hi Elizabeth! > > > There are other factors, Elizabeth: > > > > 1) Someone just learning. > > 2) Psychological "numbing" (people have a tendency to protect > > their psyches) > > > > DebMcW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > > > Deborah A. McWilliams > > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > > University of Guelph > > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > Elizabeth Chandler > Center of Marine Biotechnology > University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute > chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 12-MAY-1999 18:30:14.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'" CC: Subj: Australian Funding for Animal Welfare Hi All This is probably only relevant for those of you in Oz, so others can delete this message! The Animal Welfare Committee (AWC) is trying to get an overview of animal welfare research in Australia over the last 10 years. Under AWC's terms of reference it addresses only production (livestock) and pest animals. The major funding bodies (eg what was the Meat Research Council, Sheep & Wool Corporation) are being approached for details of welfare work they've supported, but AWC also wants to know of other work that might not have gone through these main funding organisations. Does anybody out there know of any welfare research that fits into this category, or of any bodies that fund welfare work on livestock and pest species? (I've already suggested RSPCA, ANZCCART, Animals Australia and CRCs as possibilities). Thanks in anticipation of your help. Carol Carol Petherick Senior Research Scientist (Animal Behaviour & Welfare) Queensland Beef Industry Institute Tropical Beef Centre PO Box 5545 Central Qld Mail Centre Rockhampton Qld 4702 Australia email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au Tel: (0)7 4923 8200 Fax: (0)7 4923 8222 From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 12-MAY-1999 23:04:33.43 To: CC: Subj: chemicals & dog smell? Dear list members, I recently received the following message: > I am a K9 handler specializing in Narcotic drug detection. Is there any > medications or chemicals that can alter a K9's ability to search for > narcotics. I will compile any responses I receive (together with some relevant notes I believe I already have) and send them to the individual as well as back to the list. TIA, Dr. P Dog Training Site - http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm ----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- ----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- ----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- ----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- ----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 13-MAY-1999 03:19:09.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dear All, I sometimes wonder whether our anthropocentric fears about death cloud our views on the welfare of animals being euthanased/slaughtered. The process of euthanasia/slaughter under most conditions is likely to be of a relatively short duration (seconds) when compared to the animals life-time (weeks, months or years). So, if there is a welfare compromise during euthanasia, this is likely to impinge on only a small part of the animal's overall existence. Why then, do we become so greatly concerned about the welfare during the last few seconds of an animals life when we might otherwise accept it being kept in barren, cramped conditions or being repeatedly beaten, kept on short chains, etc.for a considerably greater duration of time? I am NOT for one second suggesting we should abandon welfare and ethical considerations for the euthanasia of animals, but, perhaps we should keep it in perspective with the duration and intensity of other welfare compromises which occur during the anima'ls life prior to euthanasia/slaughter. ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 13-MAY-1999 05:08:32.36 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" Subj: RE: Time required for humane euthanasia of un Elizabeth, I disagree with your suggestion that humans do not experience poor quality care and detached attitudes. I have personally endured repeated incompetent venipuncture and painfully overzealous dental drilling in the name of training. Others in my family have suffered incompetent surgery and repeated radiation doses due to poor radiographic technique. None of the people that made these mistakes were anything less than utterly likeable and charming. I have personal friends who have worked in difficult medical situations such as accident and emergency departments; they have a very hardened and cynical view of the human race but they are excellent clinicians who do an excellent job (I have seen them) and to whom some very foolish and unpleaseant people owe their lives. The fact is that detachment is not related to competence. For some people detachment may actually be the coping mechanism that enables them to continue to perform an emotionally traumatic task. Possibly they cared so much that they had to deleop some method of self preservation? Also, 'appearing to care' and 'caring' are not the same thing! Possibly those who know that they are bad at their job are more accomplished at apologising and come across as nicer people? Maybe some of them are psychopaths who don't care whether they get it right or wrong but are very skilled at saying the right thing to stop a complaint being lodged against them? Who knows? I wouldn't class either of these people as caring! Another point to make is that people tend to give the answers that they think you want. I would be very suspicious of any research that was based on freeform ancedotally based reports from individuals. Just because a technician can tell an interviewer half a dozen 'nightmare euthanasia' stories doesn't mean that they reflect the over all competence of the person telling the story or are even true. A very conscientious and skilled person may well tend to focus on failure rather than success, a person with a florid imagination but a very dull and efficient work record can come up with some extraordinary stories. Real research is needed. To conclude: If you want to quantify suffering there are two parameters: a-the amount of 'suffering' inflicted upon each animal during a procedure. b-the number of animals undergoing the procedure. Within the context of euthanasia the way to reduce a) is to standardise humane methods and implement them correctly. For an individual animal this has nothing to do with detachment; this only matters to an observer. In fact the ideal method of euthanasia would be one in which the animal was not aware of any event taking place and death was instantaneous (itcould even be automated). Thousands of animals could be euthanased in a moment but the amount of suffering would be minimal to each. If you find yourself horrified at the thought then perhaps this is an indication that it is really not the method that disgusts, it is the apparent disposability of life. You therefore should consider b) the need to reduce the number of (companion) animals euthanased in the first place. You can only achieve this by education, responsibility, improving people's perception of the animal's intrinsic worth and their ability to understand and care for the pet. A lot of work, but probably more useful than focusing on technicians. JB Does anyone have any suggested best protocols for euthanasia of pet species? From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 13-MAY-1999 06:47:21.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re: Dear Chris: > part of the animal's overall existence. Why then, do we become so > greatly concerned about the welfare during the last few seconds of an > animals life when we might otherwise accept it being kept in barren, > cramped conditions or being repeatedly beaten, kept on short chains, > etc.for a considerably greater duration of time? Thank you for bringing this into the discussion. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 13-MAY-1999 07:05:07.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re: At 08:46 AM 5/13/99 -0400, Deborah McWilliams wrote: >Dear Chris: > >> part of the animal's overall existence. Why then, do we become so >> greatly concerned about the welfare during the last few seconds of an >> animals life when we might otherwise accept it being kept in barren, >> cramped conditions or being repeatedly beaten, kept on short chains, >> etc.for a considerably greater duration of time? > > Thank you for bringing this into the discussion. > > DebMcW We do the same with people. The "homeless" are living on the streets, and people pass them by, legislators do nothing about it. But one homeless old woman dies of the cold in the street and people are outraged. Not at the way she lived, but at the way she died. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 13-MAY-1999 07:08:45.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Pride and Nursableness ( Re: Euth etc) Soaring pride and self-confidence are inseparable from top performance. Diffident surgeons, humble lawyers, shy ballet dancers and self deprecating rescue folk will variously kill you, lose your life or bore you insensible. Pride that spurs to the point of arrogance and must gain success under in its own eyes as well as the spectators is vital in surgery as in war. My heart surgeon looked down as said "We might kill you!". I liked him. My response was "just don't half-kill me!". Everything changes in the Nursing phase. Here it is incumbent on the patient to try and be as "nursable" as possible. Smiling at nurses, asking how they are, and making them laugh can pay huge dividends. In my case I was kept in the peace and caring tranquillity of the ICU two days longer than usual because "they "liked having me there". The downside was that in securing the affection of the Nursing chief when she took my tracheal tube out and upon asking "how are you?" got the reply "this is quite the most interesting thing I have done this week". I apparently then asked "what was for breakfast". I have no recollection of all this. The snag with being hugely nursable and popular is that the diffident, humble nurse trainees were brought to me because I was "nice". The wonderful face that told me I was alive came with them of course. They were trained to take out my three chest drains. This is like having a flotilla of large propeller motor boats driven through your lungs. People complain! People scream! Pride forbade it. Being a "good patient" meant that the chief could describe aloud the difficulties that followed when the surgeon on one occasion had included the drain in one of the chest staples! Being nursable is testing. When I was offered a commode with a naughty wisp of faeces on the seat rim, and sprayed in the eyes with disinfectant meant for my neck lines I was able to take a hand in the training. Humorously. It works better than ranting. We are all fallible. We are all learning and surviving. We simply cannot go through life screaming for special havens of absolute perfection AND have our bottoms buttered unctuously at every turn. Some of the self elected "fighters for change" are the very worst kind of people for the task. Ruthless in their determination to criticise and "too emotional" of course to engage in the realities, they seem to sharpen stick after stick with which to jab at the target discarding them when they prove blunt, without apology. My message to them is summon up some humanity or shut up! Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"jkincaid@kawartha.com" "John Kincaid" 13-MAY-1999 07:25:20.57 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'", IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: Subj: Cat physiology? Hello Deborah and All I Know this isn't the lists topic now but I wonder how it is that a cat domestic or wild can stay stationery for extended periods of time and then spring into action in a nano second. Just curious John From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 13-MAY-1999 08:13:16.20 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Inhumane life vs. euthanasia Vivian and Deb: I agree with your comments, but I am concerned, too, with the way these animals (and humans, in the case of the homeless) live as well as with how they die. It may be idealistic, but while saving them from unnecessary death, it is my goal to likewise provide them with a good life. That may be an unattainable end at this point in mankind's descent, but that is what I work for. And, if I can make this happen for even a few animals that would otherwise have faced an unnecessary death OR an inhumane life, then I believe I've done something good. And, while I support the use of euthanasia in the case where an animal has no choice but a wretched and painful existence (as I do for humans as well, in the case of terminal disease, for example), I prefer to do away with the wretched and painful existance dogs and cats are subjected to rather than rely heavily on euthanasia as the primary tool of animal overpopulation management. Elizabeth On Thu, 13 May 1999 09:00:55 -0400 VIVIAN BREGMAN wrote: > At 08:46 AM 5/13/99 -0400, Deborah McWilliams wrote: > >Dear Chris: > > > >> part of the animal's overall existence. Why then, do we become so > >> greatly concerned about the welfare during the last few seconds of an > >> animals life when we might otherwise accept it being kept in barren, > >> cramped conditions or being repeatedly beaten, kept on short chains, > >> etc.for a considerably greater duration of time? > > > > Thank you for bringing this into the discussion. > > > > DebMcW > > > We do the same with people. > The "homeless" are living on the streets, and people pass them by, > legislators do nothing about it. > > But one homeless old woman dies of the cold in the street and people are > outraged. > Not at the way she lived, but at the way she died. > > Vivian > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > interested in everything to do with science, > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 13-MAY-1999 08:30:08.94 To: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler", IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Inhumane life vs. euthanasia At 10:11 AM 5/13/99 -0400, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: >disease, for example), I prefer to do away with the wretched and >painful existance dogs and cats are subjected to rather than rely >heavily on euthanasia as the primary tool of animal overpopulation >management. > >Elizabeth Then you might want to look at this, too: Patronek, G. J., & Glickman, L. T. (1993). Development of a model for estimating the size and dynamics of the pet dog population. Anthrozoos, VII(1), 25-41. Essentially, shelter dogs beget shelter dogs. Good luck with your endeavors. Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) PO Box 844 Arlee MT 59821-0844 USA 406-726-3342 arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 13-MAY-1999 08:43:28.72 To: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" Subj: RE: Inhumane life vs. euthanasia Peggy: Thank you --- this is an excellent reference. Elizabeth On Thu, 13 May 1999 08:05:11 +0000 peggy shunick wrote: > At 10:11 AM 5/13/99 -0400, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: > > >disease, for example), I prefer to do away with the wretched and > >painful existance dogs and cats are subjected to rather than rely > >heavily on euthanasia as the primary tool of animal overpopulation > >management. > > > >Elizabeth > > Then you might want to look at this, too: > > Patronek, G. J., & Glickman, L. T. (1993). Development of a model for > estimating the size and dynamics of the pet dog population. Anthrozoos, > VII(1), 25-41. > > Essentially, shelter dogs beget shelter dogs. Good luck with your endeavors. > > > > > Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick > BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) > PO Box 844 > Arlee MT 59821-0844 > USA > > 406-726-3342 > arl3342@montana.com Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 13-MAY-1999 08:52:45.30 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs Vivian: Most mandatory spay/neuter laws do not apply to breeders (I assume that includes show dogs). The Fund for Animals has a wonderful book (I don't think it's in print anymore, though) that provides the actual legislation in this respect for various communities across the county. Each one is a little different from the other, but generally, the targetted audience is back-yard breeders and those who indiscriminantly breed cats and dogs, not licensed breeders. Your point about not being able to show a dog that isn't intact is a good one. It seems to me some changes may need to be made from the show organizations in this regard ... but that's beyond my realm at the moment. Anyway, your comments are appreciated. Elizabeth On Wed, 12 May 1999 18:22:49 -0400 VIVIAN BREGMAN wrote: > At 09:50 AM 5/12/99 -0400, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: > >Peggy and List: > > > BTW, I wonder about this idea of mandatory spay/neutering. I > have many friends who show their dogs in dog shows. They don't > breed them, but cannot show them if they are not intact. Just > how would this law work?? > > Vivian > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > interested in everything to do with science, > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 13-MAY-1999 09:03:19.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Death and euthanasia Yes, we do become outraged at the manner of death more than prior living standards in both humans and non-human animals, but I think this is for different reasons. It is so much easier for us to understand the feelings of humans. Most of us fear dying alone, especially if this were to be in squalid conditions. Therefore, it is easy for us to identify or empathise with the suffering of someone dying homeless and alone. But, we do not have direct access to the feelings of non-human animals at the time of their death. Although an animal might become distressed at being in a new place, handled by strangers, perhaps even being restrained during euthanasia/slaughter, this does NOT show the animal has in any way the ability to predict its own death (remember Carol Petherick's comments earlier). I think it is this aspect which most people would empathise with in the homeless woman dying on the street; the thought that she must have suffered so much knowing she was dying. Chris > > We do the same with people. > The "homeless" are living on the streets, and people pass them by, > legislators do nothing about it. > > But one homeless old woman dies of the cold in the street and people are > outraged. > Not at the way she lived, but at the way she died. > > Vivian > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > interested in everything to do with science, > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 13-MAY-1999 09:35:27.83 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Death and euthanasia Chris: That may be true, but it is arguable that the homeless woman dying on the street even had an understanding of her death, either. It would depend, of course, on the mental condition of the person who is dying --- many homeless people are not necessarily mentally intact. This is not to say that is true for all. There are those, though, who, while understanding that the ability to recognize "death" vs. an inability to understand the concept of death is of importance in philosophical considerations, do not subscribe to that as a basis for determination of how a being should be treated. I guess I'm one of those. Elizabeth On Thu, 13 May 1999 15:58:39 +0000 Chris Sherwin wrote: > > > Yes, we do become outraged at the manner of death more than prior > living standards in both humans and non-human animals, but I think this > is for different reasons. It is so much easier for us to understand > the feelings of humans. Most of us fear dying alone, especially if this > were to be in squalid conditions. Therefore, it is easy for us to > identify or empathise with the suffering of someone dying homeless and > alone. But, we do not have direct access to the feelings of non-human > animals at the time of their death. Although an animal might become > distressed at being in a new place, handled by strangers, perhaps even > being restrained during euthanasia/slaughter, this does NOT show the > animal has in any way the ability to predict its own death (remember > Carol Petherick's comments earlier). I think it is this aspect which > most people would empathise with in the homeless woman dying on the > street; the thought that she must have suffered so much knowing she was > dying. > > > Chris > > > > > > We do the same with people. > > The "homeless" are living on the streets, and people pass them by, > > legislators do nothing about it. > > > > But one homeless old woman dies of the cold in the street and people are > > outraged. > > Not at the way she lived, but at the way she died. > > > > Vivian > > > > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > > interested in everything to do with science, > > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net > > > > ---------------------- > Chris Sherwin > Division of Animal Health and Husbandry > University of Bristol > Langford House > Langford > Bristol > BS40 5DU > > Phone: (0117) 928 9486 > Fax: (0117) 928 9582 > E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 13-MAY-1999 10:16:31.93 To: IN%"jkincaid@kawartha.com" "'John Kincaid'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'", IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: Subj: RE: Cat physiology? Dear John, A most timely question! I think there might be clues in the special attributes of the cat's endorphin or opioid chemistry. Loosely the clues (for me) are the peculiar responses of the cat to morphine injection; the singular raging that can be brought about by the perturbations of opioid chemistry in seizure activity and/or its suppression; the ability as you mention of freezing in concealment; and the extraordinary tendency to stay frozen after major injury for some days before returning "home" bearing fly eggs but no signs of head injury. One means of overriding discomfort to abolish fidgeting might be the analgesic properties of opioidal activity. Plus of course the rewarding or reinforcing of stillness. The fact that the cat switches (alternates?) into the highly rewarding but non-affective behaviour of predation suggest that the opioidal type of long term reward can be overridden by fast reward pulses mediated perhaps more by dopamine mechanisms. The work of Engel and Roche, Post and Weiss on seizure, kindling, suppression. cyclicity, PTSD etc. is looking very promising to me. I would be hugely grateful for insight from anybody on these matters. The learning of aversion and escape routines in the cat is a most important and troublesome feature of its management and wellbeing. It is the topic of the year for me, Robin -----Original Message----- From: John Kincaid [SMTP:jkincaid@kawartha.com] Sent: 13 May 1999 14:22 To: 'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'; Deborah McWilliams Subject: Cat physiology? Hello Deborah and All I Know this isn't the lists topic now but I wonder how it is that a cat domestic or wild can stay stationery for extended periods of time and then spring into action in a nano second. Just curious John From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 13-MAY-1999 10:29:50.31 To: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" CC: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Death and euthanasia Whether animals recognize the meaning of death or not is immaterial here. Humans do recognize the implications of death and have a moral responsibility thrust upon them as the result of that awareness. In addition, humans possess the capacity to empathize with the suffering of animals which brings with it another level of responsibility, especially with respect to domestic animals whose condition is one of human-making and perpetuation. Whether the dog dies as a pariah on the streets of Delhi (ala the homeless woman) or behind the walls of an animal shelter, makes little improvement upon the overall picture of indifference with respect to the value placed upon the animal's life. Although euthanasia may reflect a heightened sensitivity with respect to animal suffering, it is hardly an ethical solution. In fact, one might argue that it is merely a convenient escape from the harder responsibility of eliminating the cultural and social causes perpetuating the suffering of domestic animals in the first place (e.g., see Fox, 1979). Reference Fox MW (1979). The values and uses of pets. In RD Allen & WH Westbrook, " The Handbook of Animal Welfare: Biomedical, Psychological, and Ecological Aspects of Pet Problems and Control." New York: Garland STPM Press. Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services Philadelphia, PA Elizabeth Chandler wrote: > Chris: > > That may be true, but it is arguable that the homeless woman dying > on the street even had an understanding of her death, either. It > would depend, of course, on the mental condition of the person who > is dying --- many homeless people are not necessarily mentally > intact. This is not to say that is true for all. > > There are those, though, who, while understanding that the ability > to recognize "death" vs. an inability to understand the concept > of death is of importance in philosophical considerations, do not > subscribe to that as a basis for determination of how a being > should be treated. I guess I'm one of those. > > Elizabeth > > On Thu, 13 May 1999 15:58:39 +0000 Chris Sherwin > wrote: > > > > > > > Yes, we do become outraged at the manner of death more than prior > > living standards in both humans and non-human animals, but I think this > > is for different reasons. It is so much easier for us to understand > > the feelings of humans. Most of us fear dying alone, especially if this > > were to be in squalid conditions. Therefore, it is easy for us to > > identify or empathise with the suffering of someone dying homeless and > > alone. But, we do not have direct access to the feelings of non-human > > animals at the time of their death. Although an animal might become > > distressed at being in a new place, handled by strangers, perhaps even > > being restrained during euthanasia/slaughter, this does NOT show the > > animal has in any way the ability to predict its own death (remember > > Carol Petherick's comments earlier). I think it is this aspect which > > most people would empathise with in the homeless woman dying on the > > street; the thought that she must have suffered so much knowing she was > > dying. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > We do the same with people. > > > The "homeless" are living on the streets, and people pass them by, > > > legislators do nothing about it. > > > > > > But one homeless old woman dies of the cold in the street and people are > > > outraged. > > > Not at the way she lived, but at the way she died. > > > > > > Vivian > > > > > > > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > > > interested in everything to do with science, > > > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > Chris Sherwin > > Division of Animal Health and Husbandry > > University of Bristol > > Langford House > > Langford > > Bristol > > BS40 5DU > > > > Phone: (0117) 928 9486 > > Fax: (0117) 928 9582 > > E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk > > Elizabeth Chandler > Center of Marine Biotechnology > University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute > chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 13-MAY-1999 11:09:32.17 To: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" CC: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Death and euthanasia Steve: Thank you for your reply and the excellent reference. You state very nicely what I could not put into words ... Elizabeth On Thu, 13 May 1999 12:23:30 -0400 slindsay@ix.netcom.com wrote: > Whether animals recognize the meaning of death or not is immaterial here. > Humans do recognize the implications of death and have a moral responsibility > thrust upon them as the result of that awareness. In addition, humans possess > the capacity to empathize with the suffering of animals which brings with it > another level of responsibility, especially with respect to domestic animals > whose condition is one of human-making and perpetuation. Whether the dog dies > as a pariah on the streets of Delhi (ala the homeless woman) or behind the > walls of an animal shelter, makes little improvement upon the overall picture > of indifference with respect to the value placed upon the animal's life. > Although euthanasia may reflect a heightened sensitivity with respect to animal > suffering, it is hardly an ethical solution. In fact, one might argue that it > is merely a convenient escape from the harder responsibility of eliminating the > cultural and social causes perpetuating the suffering of domestic animals in > the first place (e.g., see Fox, 1979). > > Reference > > Fox MW (1979). The values and uses of pets. In RD Allen & WH Westbrook, " The > Handbook of Animal Welfare: Biomedical, Psychological, and Ecological Aspects > of Pet Problems and Control." New York: > Garland STPM Press. > > Steve Lindsay > Canine Behavioral Services > Philadelphia, PA > > Elizabeth Chandler wrote: > > > Chris: > > > > That may be true, but it is arguable that the homeless woman dying > > on the street even had an understanding of her death, either. It > > would depend, of course, on the mental condition of the person who > > is dying --- many homeless people are not necessarily mentally > > intact. This is not to say that is true for all. > > > > There are those, though, who, while understanding that the ability > > to recognize "death" vs. an inability to understand the concept > > of death is of importance in philosophical considerations, do not > > subscribe to that as a basis for determination of how a being > > should be treated. I guess I'm one of those. > > > > Elizabeth > > > > On Thu, 13 May 1999 15:58:39 +0000 Chris Sherwin > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, we do become outraged at the manner of death more than prior > > > living standards in both humans and non-human animals, but I think this > > > is for different reasons. It is so much easier for us to understand > > > the feelings of humans. Most of us fear dying alone, especially if this > > > were to be in squalid conditions. Therefore, it is easy for us to > > > identify or empathise with the suffering of someone dying homeless and > > > alone. But, we do not have direct access to the feelings of non-human > > > animals at the time of their death. Although an animal might become > > > distressed at being in a new place, handled by strangers, perhaps even > > > being restrained during euthanasia/slaughter, this does NOT show the > > > animal has in any way the ability to predict its own death (remember > > > Carol Petherick's comments earlier). I think it is this aspect which > > > most people would empathise with in the homeless woman dying on the > > > street; the thought that she must have suffered so much knowing she was > > > dying. > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We do the same with people. > > > > The "homeless" are living on the streets, and people pass them by, > > > > legislators do nothing about it. > > > > > > > > But one homeless old woman dies of the cold in the street and people are > > > > outraged. > > > > Not at the way she lived, but at the way she died. > > > > > > > > Vivian > > > > > > > > > > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > > > > interested in everything to do with science, > > > > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > Chris Sherwin > > > Division of Animal Health and Husbandry > > > University of Bristol > > > Langford House > > > Langford > > > Bristol > > > BS40 5DU > > > > > > Phone: (0117) 928 9486 > > > Fax: (0117) 928 9582 > > > E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk > > > > Elizabeth Chandler > > Center of Marine Biotechnology > > University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute > > chandler@umbi.umd.edu > > Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 13-MAY-1999 11:24:31.00 To: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs At 10:49 AM 5/13/99 -0400, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: >Vivian: > >Most mandatory spay/neuter laws do not apply to breeders (I assume >that includes show dogs). The Fund for Animals has a wonderful >book (I don't think it's in print anymore, though) that provides >the actual legislation in this respect for various communities >across the county. Each one is a little different from the other, >but generally, the targetted audience is back-yard breeders and >those who indiscriminantly breed cats and dogs, not licensed >breeders. > >Your point about not being able to show a dog that isn't intact is >a good one. It seems to me some changes may need to be made from >the show organizations in this regard ... but that's beyond my >realm at the moment. > >Anyway, your comments are appreciated. > >Elizabeth There is no way that the show organizations will change their basic rules. There point is the betterment of the breeds of dogs ---- hard to do if you are dealing with non intact animals. Also, why should someone who breeds one litter every other year need to be licensed. Most of my friends who breed will not breed a litter until they have deposits for at least six pups. We're talking here about those with Breed Champions who breed to other breed champions. The Problem: How do you differentiate between JQP with a pet shop collie who wants his children to see the miracle of life, and my friend Elizabeth with a champion collie who has bred her to another champion collie where every pup is a wanted pup and is sold for several hundred dollars? Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 13-MAY-1999 11:34:46.36 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs Vivian: A large percentage (50%+) of animals euthanized in this country are pedigree, pure bred dogs. When you say every puppy has a home, that may be true while the animal is still a puppy. But there is disturbing data out there that suggests people drop them off at the shelter as much, if not more, than mixed breed dogs. There are breed rescue groups that exist primarily because of this. So the problems are in large part due to breeding --- all breeding. I just know I cannot beat the breeders of America in a legislative struggle for mandatory spay/neutering; they are too powerful of an organization. I suppose many other communities gave up on that, too, and fought for legislation against back-yard breeding instead. Elizabeth On Thu, 13 May 1999 13:20:16 -0400 VIVIAN BREGMAN wrote: > At 10:49 AM 5/13/99 -0400, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: > >Vivian: > > > >Most mandatory spay/neuter laws do not apply to breeders (I assume > >that includes show dogs). The Fund for Animals has a wonderful > >book (I don't think it's in print anymore, though) that provides > >the actual legislation in this respect for various communities > >across the county. Each one is a little different from the other, > >but generally, the targetted audience is back-yard breeders and > >those who indiscriminantly breed cats and dogs, not licensed > >breeders. > > > >Your point about not being able to show a dog that isn't intact is > >a good one. It seems to me some changes may need to be made from > >the show organizations in this regard ... but that's beyond my > >realm at the moment. > > > >Anyway, your comments are appreciated. > > > >Elizabeth > There is no way that the show organizations will change their basic rules. > There point is the betterment of the breeds of dogs ---- hard to do if you > are dealing with non intact animals. > > Also, why should someone who breeds one litter every other year need to be > licensed. > Most of my friends who breed will not breed a litter until they have > deposits for at least six pups. > We're talking here about those with Breed Champions who breed to other > breed champions. > > The Problem: How do you differentiate between JQP with a pet shop collie > who wants his children to see the miracle of life, and my friend Elizabeth > with a champion collie who has bred her to another champion collie where > every pup is a wanted pup and is sold for several hundred dollars? > > Vivian > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > interested in everything to do with science, > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 13-MAY-1999 12:26:35.90 To: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler", IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs At 01:31 PM 5/13/99 -0400, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: >A large percentage (50%+) of animals euthanized in this country are >pedigree, pure bred dogs. When you say every puppy has a home, Any chance I can have your reference for this figure? Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) PO Box 844 Arlee MT 59821-0844 USA 406-726-3342 arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 13-MAY-1999 12:37:28.70 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs On Thu, 13 May 1999, peggy shunick wrote: >At 01:31 PM 5/13/99 -0400, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: > >>A large percentage (50%+) of animals euthanized in this country are >>pedigree, pure bred dogs. When you say every puppy has a home, > >Any chance I can have your reference for this figure? I think Elizabeth's figures are inaccurate here. For instance, when I worked part time in a shelter in Utah the population of the shelter might have been roughly 20% (maybe 10-30%) purebred (most not pedigreed, I'm sure). However, the essence of her statement remains true--there are WAY too many purebred dogs in rescues and in shelters. I have some personal stake in this problem, since I do volunteer work for a local purebred rescue group (and my own two dogs are both purebred rescues). Ione ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/ETDR.html East Tennessee Doberman Rescue ================================================== Huh? -- me From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 13-MAY-1999 12:58:27.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Do animals prune the plants they consume? Hi all! Is anyone aware of examples of animals which positively modify their environment as a result of feeding? I mean positively with respect to themselves and future feeding. For example, do horses or giraffs "prune" the shrubs and trees they graze on, thus increasing the biomass for future grazing? Do cattle "prune" the grass they graze (Is grass "prunable") Thank-you, Chantal :-) From: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com" 13-MAY-1999 14:59:53.49 To: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: RE: 2nd Request: Time required for humane euthanssia ofunwantedcompanion animals In a message dated 5/10/99 9:40:14 AM, chandler@umbi.umd.edu writes: << This goes on every day at the shelter --- with 10,000 per year, that comes out to about 22 per day. They probably dedicate a few hours a day to euthanizing. But, depending upon the number of kennels and cages they need to open up, the actual daily talley may vary. They recently put in a new floor in the kennel area and rumor has it that they euthanized large numbers of animals to make room for the construction. I don't know what their preparation involves. The person who runs the kennel group (contracted service) will not allow herself to be interviewed. I've requested some documents (i.e., the contract itself and the proposal submitted to win the contract) under FOIA, but have not received anything yet. Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu >> Elizabeth, I spent three and one half years of my life working in a large Metro Shelter. I finished every day holding dogs in my arms while they died. The gentleman the gave the injection was just that, a Gentle Man. We knew what animals would lose their life that day and had all the injections ready. I would hold the animal with all the compassion that I would hold my own dog while getting an injection at the vets. When it was over (it took about 10 seconds for the injection, we would give a final injection directly into the heart) I would have to slide the body into a large barrel at the end of the table. As I went to get the other animal, my partner would clean off the table by spraying a cleanser and wiping away any blood. We did this after each animal. I was lucky enough to be allowed to spend time with any fearful dogs to get to know them and help them calm down. The worse part of my job was to get a dog to trust me so that I could kill it. When you spend every day taking life away from an animal you become very efficient. This doesn't mean that you lose your sensitivity to what you are doing. Some days we would have to put down 50 to 100 cats. Not once did any of us lose sight of what we were doing. Its not fair to measure humanity with time. You have to take into consideration the people doing the euthanasia as well. What's easiest for them too? Remember the longer you hold an animal its more likely to pick up your anxiousness. Sometimes the faster we finished the job the more humane it was for the dog or cat. George Phillip Quinlan All About Dogs Behavior and Training Center PO BOX 7781 Bend Or (7708-7781 From: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com" 13-MAY-1999 15:02:02.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cattle pens In a message dated 5/6/99 12:52:24 PM, joseph.stookey@usask.ca writes: << Dear All, Our University is in the process of relocating and rebuilding our experimental feedlot. We are designing pens (for 15 animals/pen) and the engineers are convinced that square pens are better than longer rectangular pens because 1) it saves construction costs (the perimeter and amount of fencing is less) and 2) square pens make it easier for equipment to turn around in during cleanup. >> Hi Joe, I have been away for a week and haven't had a chance to read all the responses on this topic. It didn't take long for me to ask the question, Why not a round pen? Cleaning up the area should be easy if using large equipment because the corners are cut out to collect droppings. Also, without corners the animals that are being bullied are less likely to be trapped and injured. Round pens are used to train animals in! Is there any reason they couldn't be housed this way? Maybe there is a Grant somewhere for this research project? Best Regards, George Phillip Quinlan All About Dogs Behavior and Training Center PO BOX 7781 Bend Or 97708-7781 541-388-8145 From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 13-MAY-1999 16:51:32.77 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "'VIVIAN BREGMAN'", IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs Hi Vivian and others Again I refrained from entering this discussion when the issue of showing neutered animals was raised and that changes were needed from show organisations. However, when you said that the point of showing and breeding (and, I presume, organisations like the Kennel Club) was for the 'betterment' of the breeds of dog, I just had to jump in! Breed organisations, shows, the Kennel Club etc have been responsible for some of the worst cases of poor animal welfare in companion animals. Consider the toy breeds that can now no longer give birth without caesarean sections, consider the bull-dogs, pugs etc whose snouts are so foreshortened that they have chronic breathing problems, consider the big breeds like great danes that have inherent heart weaknesses, consider the labradors and retrievers that suffer hip dysplasia, consider the spaniels that suffer chronic eye and ear infections, consider the rottweillers that have severe skin problems, consider the requirement for tail and ear-docking to meet breed standards .... the list goes on. And this is the betterment of the breeds???!!!! Carol Petherick > -----Original Message----- > From: VIVIAN BREGMAN [SMTP:bregman@interactive.net] > Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 3:20 > To: Elizabeth Chandler > Cc: Applied Ethology Network (E-mail) > Subject: Re: Chaining of Dogs > > At 10:49 AM 5/13/99 -0400, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: > >Vivian: > > > >Most mandatory spay/neuter laws do not apply to breeders (I assume > >that includes show dogs). The Fund for Animals has a wonderful > >book (I don't think it's in print anymore, though) that provides > >the actual legislation in this respect for various communities > >across the county. Each one is a little different from the other, > >but generally, the targetted audience is back-yard breeders and > >those who indiscriminantly breed cats and dogs, not licensed > >breeders. > > > >Your point about not being able to show a dog that isn't intact is > >a good one. It seems to me some changes may need to be made from > >the show organizations in this regard ... but that's beyond my > >realm at the moment. > > > >Anyway, your comments are appreciated. > > > >Elizabeth > There is no way that the show organizations will change their basic > rules. > There point is the betterment of the breeds of dogs ---- hard to do if you > are dealing with non intact animals. > > Also, why should someone who breeds one litter every other year need to be > licensed. > Most of my friends who breed will not breed a litter until they have > deposits for at least six pups. > We're talking here about those with Breed Champions who breed to other > breed champions. > > The Problem: How do you differentiate between JQP with a pet shop collie > who wants his children to see the miracle of life, and my friend Elizabeth > with a champion collie who has bred her to another champion collie where > every pup is a wanted pup and is sold for several hundred dollars? > > Vivian > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > interested in everything to do with science, > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 13-MAY-1999 16:55:37.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cattle pens At 04:56 PM 5/13/99 -0400, GPQUINLAN@aol.com wrote: > >I have been away for a week and haven't had a chance to read all the >responses on this topic. It didn't take long for me to ask the question, Why >not a round pen? > >Cleaning up the area should be easy if using large equipment because the >corners are cut out to collect droppings. Also, without corners the animals >that are being bullied are less likely to be trapped and injured. Round pens >are used to train animals in! Is there any reason they couldn't be housed >this way? Maybe there is a Grant somewhere for this research project? > >Best Regards, >George Phillip Quinlan Seems to me that round pens leave more unused room than pens with corners. Maybe octagonal pens?? Like bee hives?? Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 13-MAY-1999 17:03:21.49 To: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com" "'GPQUINLAN@aol.com'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cattle pens George My guess would be that round is not good for the amount of wasted space between pens - it is difficult to fit a number of circles together in a line or a circle (which is the way you'd have to do it to access all of the pens easily) without a lot of wasted space. Also there'd be the additional difficulty and cost of construction - more posts for rails or wire, moulding of curved feedbunks etc. This could be overcome with hexagonals/octagonals etc., but there'd still be the issue of wasted space. Carol Petherick > -----Original Message----- > From: GPQUINLAN@aol.com [SMTP:GPQUINLAN@aol.com] > Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 6:57 > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Cattle pens > > In a message dated 5/6/99 12:52:24 PM, joseph.stookey@usask.ca writes: > > << Dear All, > > Our University is in the process of relocating and rebuilding our > experimental feedlot. We are designing pens (for 15 animals/pen) and the > engineers are convinced that square pens are better than longer > rectangular pens because 1) it saves construction costs (the perimeter and > amount of fencing is less) and 2) square pens make it easier for equipment > to turn around in during cleanup. > >> > > Hi Joe, > > I have been away for a week and haven't had a chance to read all the > responses on this topic. It didn't take long for me to ask the question, > Why > not a round pen? > > Cleaning up the area should be easy if using large equipment because the > corners are cut out to collect droppings. Also, without corners the > animals > that are being bullied are less likely to be trapped and injured. Round > pens > are used to train animals in! Is there any reason they couldn't be housed > this way? Maybe there is a Grant somewhere for this research project? > > Best Regards, > George Phillip Quinlan > All About Dogs > Behavior and Training Center > PO BOX 7781 > Bend Or 97708-7781 > 541-388-8145 From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 13-MAY-1999 17:05:28.17 To: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)", IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "'VIVIAN BREGMAN'", IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs At 08:48 AM 5/14/99 +1000, Petherick, Carol (TBC) wrote: >Hi Vivian and others >Again I refrained from entering this discussion when the issue of showing >neutered animals was raised and that changes were needed from show >organisations. However, when you said that the point of showing and >breeding (and, I presume, organisations like the Kennel Club) was for the >'betterment' of the breeds of dog, I just had to jump in! Breed >organisations, shows, the Kennel Club etc have been responsible for some of >the worst cases of poor animal welfare in companion animals. Consider the >toy breeds that can now no longer give birth without caesarean sections, >consider the bull-dogs, pugs etc whose snouts are so foreshortened that they >have chronic breathing problems, consider the big breeds like great danes >that have inherent heart weaknesses, consider the labradors and retrievers >that suffer hip dysplasia, consider the spaniels that suffer chronic eye and >ear infections, consider the rottweillers that have severe skin problems, >consider the requirement for tail and ear-docking to meet breed standards >.... the list goes on. >And this is the betterment of the breeds???!!!! >Carol Petherick It certainly was the original purpose of the dog shows, and the registry bodies. Just because the breeders and judges screwed it up is not the fault of the AKC, UKC, CKC, etc. The breed clubs set the standards, not the AKC, etc. Vivian who is furious at the AKC, BTW, for insisting that the Border Collie become an "official" breed. This means that breeders can no longer breed AKC dogs to trialing dogs who are not AKC. Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 13-MAY-1999 18:13:29.28 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs On Fri, 14 May 1999, Petherick, Carol (TBC) wrote: >And this is the betterment of the breeds???!!!! >Carol Petherick I think the main problem here is that our definition of "betterment" often does not match the definition used by the breeders. ;-) Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== Huh? -- me From: IN%"Ellen.Jongman@nre.vic.gov.au" "Ellen Jongman" 13-MAY-1999 19:00:38.89 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: PhD position A position (with a scholarship) is available for a postgraduate student to work on an animal behaviour project at the University of Melbourne examining facility design for dairy cows. Students interested in a PhD program within this project should contact either myself (Ellen.Jongman@nre.vic.gov.au) or Paul Hemsworth (Paul.Hemsworth@nre.vic.gov.au). Ellen. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Ellen Jongman Animal Welfare Centre Victorian Institute of Animal Science Werribee, Vic. Australia. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 13-MAY-1999 20:40:25.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: 2nd Request: Time required for humane euthanssia ofunwantedcompanion Reply to message from chandler@umbi.umd.edu of Mon, 10 May > >Mr. Walker: > >You don't know me and you do not have a right to imply what you did >in your message. I am not a prejudiced sideliner --- I am fighting >to resolve an issue in my community that is out of hand. If you >don't have anything positive or helpful to say, you can leave your >criticisms to yourself. I was only asking for information about >something I am indeed concerned about and have a right to be >concerned about. > >Elizabeth Chandler Touchy! Touchy! > >On Mon, 10 May 1999 18:52:33 +0100 Robin Walker > wrote: > >> I think what WOULD have been disagreeable is a chorus >> of prejudiced criticism from the sidelines. >> >> That you for your interesting inquiry, >> >> Robin > > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! -------------------------------------------- .. In vino veritas. In cervisio felicitas. From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 14-MAY-1999 00:38:15.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs In a message dated 99-05-13 13:49:31 EDT, you write: << A large percentage (50%+) of animals euthanized in this country are pedigree, pure bred dogs. When you say every puppy has a home, that may be true while the animal is still a puppy. But there is disturbing data out there that suggests people drop them off at the shelter as much, if not more, than mixed breed dogs. There are breed rescue groups that exist primarily because of this >> Geez, I really wanted to stay out of this one! Anyway, I have to say that I agree with most of the comments made here, and I also disagree with most of the comments here, and that, my friends, defines the whole issue. The purpose of a registry is to maintain pedigrees. Pedigrees are necessary for intelligent breeding. How can one have any idea of the genetic background without a pedigree? The intended purpose of the dog show, and the performance trial, is to determine the superior animal. Theoretically, this would be the animal one would choose to breed. Therein lies the problem. What is the definition of "superior"? Whose definition? Here in the USA we allowed a divergence of the superior working animal from the physically aesthetic animal. Most conformation champions are incapable of performing the tasks their breed was developed for. Most performance dogs would be laughed out of the conformation ring and considered inferior. Rather a dichotomous situation, wouldn't you say? Despite the claims of organizations such as the AKC that they are "just a registry" they are partly accountable for the deplorable conditions that exist. Puppymills do not breed mutts. They breed AKC registered dogs. They forge pedigrees. Registries turn their backs and collect the registration fees. They are a business, and they need an ever increasing growth and revenue to survive. Breed rescues do not exist because puppy buyers dump pure bred dogs. Breed rescues exist because serious breeders care about their breed. Dogs bred by serious breeders make up a very small percentage of purebred dogs. The majority of purebred dogs are produced by puppymills, backyard breeders, and hobby breeders who show in conformation and crank out puppies to finance their hobby and make a profit. Performance dog breeders are too busy training their dogs to perform to crank out puppies. They breed to produce more dogs who will be able to perform. Trained working dogs are never dumped in shelters. They are too valuable. They are needed to guard, or herd, or perform. Serious breeders rarely come close to breaking even. Serious breeders take back any dog bred by them that becomes homeless and either keep the dog for life or rehome it. Every mandatory spay/neuter law I have seen proposed included high licensing fees and other heavy penalties for those who own intact dogs. I happen to know the puppymill/dog broker/retail pet store world intimately. It isn't pretty and I know of what I speak. I also know the whole scenario of the uneducated back yard breeder all too well. I also own intact dogs. I am a serious breeder. I screen my buyers extensively, keep tabs on the dogs I sell for life, and my purchase contract forbids any transfer of ownership other than back to me. I also am a breed rescue. I have yet to find it necessary to rescue or foster a dog bred by any other serious breeder. Every puppy I breed DOES have a home for life, even if it is my own home. I am not the only breeder that does this. We may be the minority, but we exist. I refuse to breed for conformation only. I want dogs who can perform, are free of genetic disease, and have stable temperament that would allow them to survive working at the tasks they were intended to perform. There have been times when I was forced to go begging for donations to feed the rescued animals I house and vet (all whom were bred by profiteers or delusional backyard breeders, but none so far from serious breeders such as myself). Why would anyone want to penalize people such as myself with the additional financial and other burdens created by mandatory spay/neuter laws? It is naive and simplistic to point a finger only at the registry organizations (such as AKC), or the puppymills, or the backyard breeders, or at "breeders" (a generalization often used by misguided animal rights propononents). Sadly, we live in a society that has a tendency to throw away both our old (nursing homes are terrible places) and our young (our foster system is a disaster) and to abuse them. We have a growing problem of homeless humans, although we have not yet started to euthanise them or to legislate mandatory sterilization. We are a species who gleefully practices indiscriminate and irresponsible sex and procreation. I think the problem is a little too complex to be "solved" with simplistic, sweeping solutions such as mandatory spay/neuter of companion animals. The plight of our companion animals is a mirror image of the plight of our own species. That should engender some deeper thought and solution. We appear to have an issue here that is the result of a general lack of respect for, and value of, life in any/all species. We are over-populated and surrounded by old, young, and enfeebled humans that are starved, chained, beaten, homeless, uneducated, denied medical care, and generally considered disposable. Yet there is all this passion and horror about the plight of over-populated "disposable" companion animals? If our parents, children, and fellow humans are disposable, why not our companion animals? Perhaps breeding IS the crux of the problem. Perhaps we should breed less people who have better values. Is there a paradox here or have I merely become one of the enfeebled? Kathy Hughes Just a Dawg Trainer From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 14-MAY-1999 03:05:10.17 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs Kathy puts some good points. Another point that relates to neutering policy that may be controversial is the rights issue as it relates to surgical modification of animals. In the UK various procedures are not permitted. Ear pricking, debarking and declawing (cats) are some of them, and it was hoped that docking would be added to the list. These are described as 'mutilations'. I am informed that in certain countries Norway I believe, but I would like confirmation of this) neutering is not permitted other than for specific medical reasons; for the same reason that it is considered a mutilation. If we believe that animals have any intrinsic value at all then how can we justify arbitrary distinctions between forms of surgical alteration purely on the basis of the convenience it affords us? Much as I support the idea that breeding needs to be controlled I am not convinced that a blanket neutering policy will have much of an effect on welfare in general. Some reasons are these; Neutering is not without risk; animals die and suffer post operative pain. Neutering is not without side effects; incontinence, medical and surgical complications, behavioural changes. The absence of ovaries or testacles has not to my knowledge endowed any animal with immunity to Pentobarbitone. If the only people allowed to produce dogs are licensed breeders this just make their job easier and more profitable, it has no effect whatsoever on demand. It does not stop someone from buying a new puppy every six months having rehomed or euthanased the last one. then there is the attitude which prevails in a society that neuters all of its pets. The action of neutering an animal merely reduces a creature's intrinsic value and converts it into a convenient saleable commodity that is undemanding to own. This may stop indiscriminate breeding but ...... It reduces the responsibility of ownership, and makes pet owning easy and convenient. I believe that it also increases the throw away attitude toward companion an imals. After all, if you can throw out few bits that you don't want because they might prove an inconvenience then it isn't a very great step to throw out the whole animal. Improving welfare is not about making life easy for people. A blanket neutering policy appeals superficially but I am not sure whether it will have the desired effect. What we really want is to stop the wrong people from owning pets. The fact that we can decide that a particular type of surgical modification is a mutilation and another is desirable appears to me to have more to do with human values, needs and aesthetics. Perhaps an alternative proposal would be to ban neutering and all other surgical mutilations and make owners permanently responsible for their pets. Identity chip and tatoo the pet, centrally register it, license all breeding, criminalise indiscriminate breeding, bring in strict laws to define minimum standards of care and husbandry, make owners responsible for the cost of rehoming and managing their pet in perpetuity. This would make pet ownership less of a woolly, feel good thing that people dip in and out of as they feel like it and make them think about commitment and responsibility. JB From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 14-MAY-1999 03:08:15.83 To: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" CC: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" Subj: RE: Death and euthanasia Dear Steve, I think we are arguing this from different perspectives. My own comments refer to the welfare of the animal prior to and during euthanasia - i.e. its awareness of its own pain, suffering and distress. In this regard, the recognition of death is certainly not immaterial. If an animal can recognise death and as a consequence enters a negative mental state (anxiety, sense-of-loss, etc) prior to euthanasia, then its welfare has been compromised. If the animals does not recognise death, then we are dealing with more proximate issues such as the quality of handling, does the injection hurt, is the animal distressed by being separated from its owners, etc. The original question posed some days ago was whether euthanasing a large number of animals in a short space of time was a welfare issue. My answer to this is - welfare is only compromised if the animals suffer as a consequence of the procedures. I have not attempted to address the moral issues of euthanasia; I suspect it is this aspect to which you direct your arguement that recognition of death is immaterial. On Thu, 13 May 1999 12:23:30 -0400 slindsay@ix.netcom.com wrote: > Whether animals recognize the meaning of death or not is immaterial here. > Humans do recognize the implications of death and have a moral responsibility > thrust upon them as the result of that awareness. In addition, humans possess > the capacity to empathize with the suffering of animals which brings with it > another level of responsibility, especially with respect to domestic animals > whose condition is one of human-making and perpetuation. Whether the dog dies > as a pariah on the streets of Delhi (ala the homeless woman) or behind the > walls of an animal shelter, makes little improvement upon the overall picture > of indifference with respect to the value placed upon the animal's life. > Although euthanasia may reflect a heightened sensitivity with respect to animal > suffering, it is hardly an ethical solution. In fact, one might argue that it > is merely a convenient escape from the harder responsibility of eliminating the > cultural and social causes perpetuating the suffering of domestic animals in > the first place (e.g., see Fox, 1979). > > Steve Lindsay > Canine Behavioral Services > Philadelphia, PA From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 14-MAY-1999 05:43:22.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs At 10:01 AM 5/14/99 +0100, Jon Bowen wrote: >Kathy puts some good points. I'd like to say "hear hear". >A blanket neutering policy appeals superficially but I am not sure whether >it will have the desired effect. >What we really want is to stop the wrong people from owning pets. I'm just a dog trainer without a Ph D. But if we neuter all pets where do the new pets come from?? Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 14-MAY-1999 07:16:37.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Knife Happy "Do-Gooders" I regularly chide my cat and dog "protectors" for their obsession with neutering everyone and everything in sight! [I am teasing them and they know it and that they cannot get "it" cheaper anywhere else.] Due consideration is given to each case. for example the bitch puppies with "giggle micturition" are allowed to have a season or two to achieve maturation. (Bed wetting by the way is -in boys- much more likely a maturation problem that a marker of incipient serial murderous tendencies!! How the parents handle the matter may be relevant) I have this very morning checked up on a setter bitch who used regularly to mount and/or bully the male dog she lived with. She was a grumpy virilized individual as a puppy and became very much WORSE after spaying. She has improved markedly on oestrogen replacement therapy. These cases occur and the conclusion is inescapable that intrauterine virilization may be at the root of it. The evidence in the wild house mouse, Mongolian Gerbil etc is incontrovertible. The correlation with the single bitch puppy among males is undeniable. The worsening after spay was the outcome of Erica Peachey's paper and survived Karen Overall's reworking of the statistics :) My theory for the worsening of behaviour or the intensification of male "sexy" behaviour and general grumpiness is the action of evoked weak androgens after ovariectomy. The absolutely predictable improvement on replacement with oestrogens seems to fulfil most of the requirements of a experiment. That approach unfortunately would require surgical removal of one uterine horn to explore the matter statistically. So there are a couple good reasons for not rushing into legislation on a single issue proposition which is in any event false. See my note on the Economics of Waste. Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 14-MAY-1999 07:18:49.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Apprehension of Death? I think that animals mortally injured or terminally sick may well experience something that elicits species typical behaviour that might seem appropriate. I have just returned from visiting a Labrador that has spent the night exploding diarrhoea and vomit all over his owner's kitchen. His owner was puzzled by his repeated attempts to dig holes in the garden in which to lie. I have always felt that the dog in circulatory shock (cold mouth, and extremities, slow capillary refill time etc) is prompted by some awful autonomic experience to a level of fear that prompts return to the "den". I think (I know I know it's only an anecdote) that they try to go to ground in their distress. The treatment was for shock and fluid replacement and I can predict that the digging will stop almost immediately. Cats who are terminally ill seem to try to hide away in seclusion. I still remember the "video" of the lioness gored through the chest by a water buffalo on camera. She peeled down from the horn, turned on the instant and began a slow dejected walk away from the scene and her 'pride'. the crew found her body the next day at some distance in the bush. I can only assume that the "shock" switched on the species typical retreat to safety. Without blundering into anthropo-thingummies that is a far as I can take the matter. Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 14-MAY-1999 07:46:33.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cat physiology? Hi John!!! It is all neurology!!!! DebMcW > Date sent: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:22:22 -0400 > From: John Kincaid > To: "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" , > Deborah McWilliams > Subject: Cat physiology? > Hello Deborah and All > I Know this isn't the lists topic now but I wonder how it is that a cat > domestic or wild can stay stationery for extended periods of time and > then spring into action in a nano second. > > Just curious > > John > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 14-MAY-1999 07:54:23.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: The Economics of Waste I suppose we could reduce the waste of food by refusing the sale of fresh supplies to householders with full garbage bins. We might similarly forbid breeding of new babies until the child shelters were emptied by adoption. The "butter mountains" and "beef mountains" could be obliterated by suspending production? Hardly. In any event on reflection they are mere foothills of prodigality compared with the Himalayas of spoilage and waste. This type of intuitive economics is silly at best and responsible for the destruction of the Russian Empire in its worst form. Unfortunately economic systems only work on the basis of oversupply just as canals function on the basis of overspill lagoons which are drawn down to maintain levels. The cruellest example is the necessity for a reservoir of unemployed humans in order to the "system" to work. tell me if you have an answer to this! No. Tell the world) Sadly there seems to be no form of human emotional bond that insures wives, husbands and children against the redundancy of estrangement and abandonment. It is thus with pet animals. I see the reduction from 20 million to 8 million in the US figures of pet wastage. This is good. Education and steady argument for very careful acquisition of pets is working and must be encouraged. No level of wastage is satisfactory but a certain level will always exist. Let it be the lowest. The general quality of our lives may rest with thoughtful parsimony in our consumption of every type of "commodity". Those who shape the culture such as writers, film makers and accountants may have a part to play. It will not be achieved by strident belabouring with emotive legislation! Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 14-MAY-1999 07:57:05.03 To: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Do animals prune the plants they consume? Chantal Gaboury wrote: > > Hi all! > > Is anyone aware of examples of animals which positively modify their > environment as a result of feeding? I mean positively with respect to > themselves and future feeding. > > For example, do horses or giraffs "prune" the shrubs and trees they > graze on, thus increasing the biomass for future grazing? Do cattle > "prune" the grass they graze (Is grass "prunable") > > Thank-you, > Chantal :-) Chantal, My guess, and this is a guess, would be that the grazers/brousers have lived together through evoulution long enough that they have come to appear to be symbiotic. However I suspect that rather than the animals benefitting the grass/trees the grass/trees have adapted to a life with constant predation e.g. when you pull grass out of your garden the stem separates without taking the roots so the grass survives. When animals graze I think it prolongs the life cycle of the grass i.e. it takes longer to go to seed but I don't think the grass has any benefit in producing more leaves / seed head. I think this is a disadvantage as it could put the energy into more or bigger seeds. This is an interesting question. I hope we hear from some of the grazing experts. P.S. my sheep were always denuding the trees if we didn't protect them with fences. But this would be an unatural situation in that the flock had few trees available and seemed to attack them as if they were a special treat. Nora -- Nora Lewis, Ph.D., D.V.M. Department of Animal Science, University of Manitoba, 12 Dafoe Rd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. R3T 2N2 phone: 204 474-9443 fax: 204 474-7628 email Nora_Lewis@UManitoba.Ca From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 14-MAY-1999 08:29:54.97 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Neutering etc. Surely part of the problem is the tendency to fight the last war? 50 years ago the animal rescue organisation for which I volunteer was gassing box after box of kittens with carbon monoxide. This no longer happens because neutering is readily available and there are organisations which will assist people who cannot afford the standard prices. Unwanted adult animals are now much more the problem we have to deal with. My guess (with some evidence to back it up) is that the size of the adult cat and dog population depends on the amount of resources which the human population is prepared to provide. Thus the cat population goes up as cats become more popular than dogs (don't bark all day & irritate the neighbours if you go out to work). Hence there are more cats to be abandoned when the human-animal relationship goes sour for one reason or another, but there are more cat homes than dog homes available for us to place the animals we take in. We FEEL overwhelmed by cat numbers & that "something must be done to reduce the cat population" but maybe we are reaching some kind of plateau where more neutering is less important than more education about responsible pet ownership. Unless we do away with companion animals altogether there will always be some animals who have to be rehomed, because there will always be owners who die or get ill & have no-one to take over. ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 14-MAY-1999 08:39:32.21 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" Subj: RE: Death and euthanasia Yes, Chris, you are quite right, I did want to prompt consideration of another perspective on the issue of euthanasia and, perhaps, my tact in this regard was not entirely fair to the direction of previous discussions. Also, as you point out, there are different lines of argument taking form, but I think that is unavoidable (or should be) when discussing the ending of another being's existence. Two general normative concerns are at stake here, viz., an ethical question regarding whether or when euthanasia should be performed and the humanitarian-welfare concern that such procedures, if performed, should be carried out in the least distressful way possible. But these general perspectives are not without significant overlap and conflict. The humanitarinan's efforts to reduce suffering during euthanasia may be entirely appropriate and laudable with respect to the act of eutanasia itself, but the reduction of suffering as the sole motive for performing euthanasia may not provide satisfactory justification for deciding when to perform the act. The humanitarian effort to reduce suffering by causing death is an ethical conundrum. Although euthanasia ends suffering, it also ends everything else of value as well, daringly intruding upon other values of paramont significance, e.g., the sanctity of life. That we humanely kill livestock in order to survive (a questionable assumption) is one thing, but to kill domestic companion animals for no other higher purpose than to reduce their suffering cannot be so easily justified. For example, one cannot make use of the pig's meat unless it is first killed. In the case of domestic companion animals, suffering can often be reduced by many other means short of killing them. Essentially, euthanasia is a pragmatic (not ethical) decision based on the most effective means to rid us of the burden to provide for the needs of homeless animals. Bottom line, I think that there is a very significant ethical consideration embedded in the act of euthanasia as a means to reduce suffering, especially when other means exist to reduce suffering that do not entail death. The excessive concern for the animal's comfort before death (that you mention in one of your previous posts), probably reflects our species tendency to ritualize when we need to distance ourselves from the responsibility for our actions, that is, ritual serves to "depersonsalize" our actions. --Steve Chris Sherwin wrote: > Dear Steve, > > I think we are arguing this from different perspectives. My own comments > refer to the welfare of the animal prior to and during > euthanasia - i.e. its awareness of its own pain, suffering and > distress. In this regard, the recognition of death is certainly not > immaterial. If an animal can recognise death and as a consequence > enters a negative mental state (anxiety, sense-of-loss, etc) prior to > euthanasia, then its welfare has been compromised. If the animals does > not recognise death, then we are dealing with more proximate issues > such as the quality of handling, does the injection hurt, is the animal > distressed by being separated from its owners, etc. The original > question posed some days ago was whether euthanasing a large number of > animals in a short space of time was a welfare issue. My answer to > this is - welfare is only compromised if the animals suffer as a > consequence of the procedures. I have not attempted to address the > moral issues of euthanasia; I suspect it is this aspect to which you > direct your arguement that recognition of death is immaterial. > > On Thu, 13 May 1999 12:23:30 -0400 slindsay@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > Whether animals recognize the meaning of death or not is immaterial here. > > Humans do recognize the implications of death and have a moral responsibility > > thrust upon them as the result of that awareness. In addition, humans possess > > the capacity to empathize with the suffering of animals which brings with it > > another level of responsibility, especially with respect to domestic animals > > whose condition is one of human-making and perpetuation. Whether the dog dies > > as a pariah on the streets of Delhi (ala the homeless woman) or behind the > > walls of an animal shelter, makes little improvement upon the overall picture > > of indifference with respect to the value placed upon the animal's life. > > Although euthanasia may reflect a heightened sensitivity with respect to animal > > suffering, it is hardly an ethical solution. In fact, one might argue that it > > is merely a convenient escape from the harder responsibility of eliminating the > > cultural and social causes perpetuating the suffering of domestic animals in > > the first place (e.g., see Fox, 1979). > > > > > Steve Lindsay > > Canine Behavioral Services > > Philadelphia, PA Chris Sherwin wrote: > Dear Steve, > > I think we are arguing this from different perspectives. My own comments > refer to the welfare of the animal prior to and during > euthanasia - i.e. its awareness of its own pain, suffering and > distress. In this regard, the recognition of death is certainly not > immaterial. If an animal can recognise death and as a consequence > enters a negative mental state (anxiety, sense-of-loss, etc) prior to > euthanasia, then its welfare has been compromised. If the animals does > not recognise death, then we are dealing with more proximate issues > such as the quality of handling, does the injection hurt, is the animal > distressed by being separated from its owners, etc. The original > question posed some days ago was whether euthanasing a large number of > animals in a short space of time was a welfare issue. My answer to > this is - welfare is only compromised if the animals suffer as a > consequence of the procedures. I have not attempted to address the > moral issues of euthanasia; I suspect it is this aspect to which you > direct your arguement that recognition of death is immaterial. > > On Thu, 13 May 1999 12:23:30 -0400 slindsay@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > Whether animals recognize the meaning of death or not is immaterial here. > > Humans do recognize the implications of death and have a moral responsibility > > thrust upon them as the result of that awareness. In addition, humans possess > > the capacity to empathize with the suffering of animals which brings with it > > another level of responsibility, especially with respect to domestic animals > > whose condition is one of human-making and perpetuation. Whether the dog dies > > as a pariah on the streets of Delhi (ala the homeless woman) or behind the > > walls of an animal shelter, makes little improvement upon the overall picture > > of indifference with respect to the value placed upon the animal's life. > > Although euthanasia may reflect a heightened sensitivity with respect to animal > > suffering, it is hardly an ethical solution. In fact, one might argue that it > > is merely a convenient escape from the harder responsibility of eliminating the > > cultural and social causes perpetuating the suffering of domestic animals in > > the first place (e.g., see Fox, 1979). > > > > > Steve Lindsay > > Canine Behavioral Services > > Philadelphia, PA From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" "W.R. Stricklin" 14-MAY-1999 09:21:46.46 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology", IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Is pen shape important for feedlot cattle? On Thu, 06 May 1999 13:37:12 -0600 (CST) joseph.stookey@usask.ca wrote: > Dear All, > > Our University is in the process of relocating and rebuilding our > experimental feedlot. We are designing pens (for 15 animals/pen) and the > engineers are convinced that square pens are better than longer > rectangular pens because 1) it saves construction costs (the perimeter and > amount of fencing is less) and 2) square pens make it easier for equipment > to turn around in during cleanup. > > I have mentioned to the planners that 1) cattle display thigmotactic > behaviour (tend to stay close to fences and walls) for resting and to > avoid others and more perimeter may be better 2) it would probably be > easier to empty the animals from narrower rectangular pens and 3) > if animals wanted to avoid each other they would be able to obtain a > greater nearest neighbor distance in a long rectangular pen compared to a > square pen. > > The response to my comments has been, "So what? How much difference does > it make and is that the only difference between square and rectangular > pens? Do they perform better in a rectangular pen?" > > Does it really matter? Ray Stricklin are you out there? > > Sincerely, > > Joe > ------------------------------ Joe and others, Yes, shape matters. The degree to which it matters increases with decreasing pen/cage size. Space to animals is more than floor area (the traditional engineering standard). Space to animals involves floor area but also includes distance that animals can space apart and features of the enclosure such as corners and especially perimeter - not to mention features within the pen. Do I believe that feedlots (even experimental pens) should be build as square pens? No. Indeed I do not. Pens small enough to house only 15 animals will result in the cattle using the perimeter areas for resting/loafing. True, perimeter spacing will be offset by the manure pack, especially in the colder periods, but over the entire year, perimeter will be an important feature to the animals housed within. In the 1979 _Applied Animal Ethology_ article on theoretical aspects of space for animals, I argued that Perimeter to Area ratio should be included in our determination of space requirements for closely confined animals. That is, we should attempt to provide more perimeter space for each animal and not simply more floor area. I still believe this to be true. (Of course by adding features such as partitions within an enclosure, theoretically one can also provide the equivalent to having more perimeter.) From the viewpoint of obtaining a higher perimeter to area ratio, circles are the worst possible design for they give the maximum amount of area with the least amount of perimeter (However, this of course is the engineer's ideal for it keeps down the costs of fencing). In designs based on the old and traditional conventional right angle construction technique, square pens are the closest approximation to the circle - which also makes them popular with engineers, etc. I can prove using animats (simulated animals) moving randomly that there is more "quality space" in a rectangular pen than in a square of equal area. (And we have a paper at the ISAE meeting that demonstrates this effect.) My animats in this case are not intelligent. They basically move at random and only change positions when they are disturbed by a moving animal. Those that position along the perimeter then are disturbed the least, and consequently, a rectangular pen gives more resting area and results in fewer disturbances than a square pen of equal area. But the problem is that essentially every time I present results using such simulations, I am informed by someone that real animals don't move randomly! Of course they don't. Animals use their behavior to adjust to the shortcomings of the restrictions of design and management that we impose on the animals. Paradoxically, this ability of animals to behaviorally adapt to a wide range of poorly designed housing allows engineers and others to dismiss behavioral criteria when designing facilities. My blind, unintelligent animats can tell us that closely confined real animals must make more changes in their behavior to adjust to a square enclosure than to a rectangular one - and in situations where this can not or does not result, then social stress would be thought to occur. But for those who consider only body mass gain, construction costs, cortisol levels, etc. as "real" data, then I am afraid they will forever remain unconvinced by computer simulations. Joe, I know from experience that you will have a difficult, if not impossible, task in arguing that behavioral considerations should have some priority over construction costs, etc. Additionally, even though I think perimeter to area ratio is important, I also think that with feedlot cattle it is of greater importance with slatted floor construction, followed by solid floor, and of lesser importance on dirt floor pens. This of course is due to density decreasing across these three types of housing. I expect that the pens to be constructed will have dirt floors and relatively low density - eliminating at least some of the perimeter to area effect. I would suggest that you also consider using the Gonyou and Stricklin (1981; Can J Anim Sci 61:809-816) paper where Harold demonstrated that on cold, non-windy days feedlot cattle in Western Canada maximize their solar profiles. A square pen would provide less opportunity for such behavior compared to a rectangular pen. (Joe, you may remember that some years ago, I proposed that feedlots should be based on hexagonal designs, but with each hexagon containing six trapezoidal pens - giving a high perimeter to area ratio and thus providing more comfort space. The feeding area of each pen would be at the narrow end of the trapezoid - center of the hexagon - and would not have open bunks but would instead have stalls (1 per 10-15 animals) and pens would house 100-150 head. Short-term feed storage would be at the center of each hexagon and augured or gravity fed into each of the six trapezoidal pens. With a hexagon design, one could have repeating multiple units with alleys between. See if you can convince the engineers!!) Ray Stricklin P.S. You asked where I am. I was at the Suckling Symposium in Stockholm. It was a good meeting which I enjoyed attending, but am now trying to sort through a few hundred somewhat old email messages. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 14-MAY-1999 10:35:42.45 To: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: RE: 2nd Request: Time required for humane euthanssia ofunwantedcompanion animals On Thu, 13 May 1999 GPQUINLAN@aol.com wrote: George: Thank you for your message. Again, I am sorry if you felt I was criticizing those who must euthanize dogs and cats ... I wasn't. I only wanted to find out about the process as others have experienced it so I could better assess the practice at the shelter in my community. I have located a HSUS report on our shelter which supports the contention that the animals were euthanized with care. There were many, many other problems with management, etc. that were cited (many of which I too have cited with my county government), but the euthanasia practice itself was found to be humane. At the time I sent the email request, I did not have the HSUS report. Regardless, though, it was not intended to make anyone feel bad about having to perform euthanasia. I don't blame the technicians or volunteers, I blame society and government. But, because some of the information I read pointed to questions of humaneness based on some places' treatment of animals, I wanted to pose the question to the listserve. One of the things I discovered in the HSUS report on my community's shelter was that there were frequent occurrences of euthanizing the WRONG animal (i.e., a highly adoptable one that had just come in to the shelter ... the inference in the report was that, rather than switch cages and do all of the paperwork necessary to euthanize the previous resident of the cage or kennel, it seemed to be a rather common practice to euthanize animals that otherwise would have been at least put up for adoption first). So, you can see my community has some issues (there are many more, but I will spare you whole huge story). It is because of this that I inquired in the first place and it is because of this that I am working so hard to try to change some of the practices (at the shelter management level and the community government level, as well as the community level) here. I know, it's one heck of a big job ... but I want to at least try to make a difference. Elizabeth > In a message dated 5/10/99 9:40:14 AM, chandler@umbi.umd.edu writes: > > >> > Elizabeth, > > I spent three and one half years of my life working in a large Metro Shelter. > I finished every day holding dogs in my arms while they died. The gentleman > the gave the injection was just that, a Gentle Man. > > We knew what animals would lose their life that day and had all the > injections ready. I would hold the animal with all the compassion that I > would hold my own dog while getting an injection at the vets. When it was > over (it took about 10 seconds for the injection, we would give a final > injection directly into the heart) I would have to slide the body into a > large barrel at the end of the table. As I went to get the other animal, my > partner would clean off the table by spraying a cleanser and wiping away any > blood. We did this after each animal. > > I was lucky enough to be allowed to spend time with any fearful dogs to get > to know them and help them calm down. The worse part of my job was to get a > dog to trust me so that I could kill it. When you spend every day taking life > away from an animal you become very efficient. This doesn't mean that you > lose your sensitivity to what you are doing. Some days we would have to put > down 50 to 100 cats. Not once did any of us lose sight of what we were doing. > > Its not fair to measure humanity with time. You have to take into > consideration the people doing the euthanasia as well. What's easiest for > them too? Remember the longer you hold an animal its more likely to pick up > your anxiousness. Sometimes the faster we finished the job the more humane it > was for the dog or cat. > > George Phillip Quinlan > All About Dogs > Behavior and Training Center > PO BOX 7781 > Bend Or (7708-7781 > From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 14-MAY-1999 10:50:54.89 To: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs/pedigree selection On Fri, 14 May 1999 02:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Kattykorn2@aol.com wrote: > The purpose of a registry is to maintain pedigrees. Pedigrees are necessary > for intelligent breeding. How can one have any idea of the genetic > background without a pedigree? The contention that pedigree selection is necessary is thankfully either dead or dying in the breeding of today's poultry, swine and beef cattle. (Regrettably, the dairy industry continues to emphasize basically a single trait -more milk- selection scheme at the expense of optimizing reproduction through outcrossing - and as a consequence too frequently reverts to emphasizing the pedigree of an individual.) At least 30 years ago (Lerner and Donald, 1966; Modern Developments in Animal Breeding) recognized that breed associations had little more than a social role (for livestock owners) to play in the breeding of livestock, and contributed basically nothing to actual livestock improvement. Lerner and Donald recognized even then that personal computers (or access to mainframes at that time) made it possible for livestock owners to easily maintain their own private records, a role that once justified the existence of breed associations. With the demise of the livestock breed associations has been the rapid move away from so-called purebred livestock and an increase in crossbreeding - a move that has generally been of considerable benefit to the fitness of animals; fitness from the well-being viewpoint. Animals that are outbred (crossbred) have fewer genetic recessive traits and generally more overall vigor - sometimes even increased behavioral vigor. Regrettably, in the choosing of pets, persons are often not aware of the advantages of obtaining an animal that is an outbred individual. I once had a flight attendant tell me how she had spent several thousand dollars on her purebred dog for hip displasia, allergies, etc. and asked me what she should do. I told her next time don't purchase a purebred pet. Tracing pedigrees is apparently a hobby some persons find pleasurable. Controlling breed registration can also be quite profitable - thoroughbred horses for example. But from the viewpoint of genetics and breeding, pedigrees are essentially meaningless. Once past the grandparents - certainly the great grandparents- the probable contribution of a given individual ancestor is basically insignificant. Breeding of animals (including pets) should work toward optimizing traits (not breeding for extremes), and the advantages of hybrid vigor (from outbreeding) should be exploited to the maximum benefit. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"jkincaid@kawartha.com" "John Kincaid" 14-MAY-1999 11:16:18.40 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" Subj: RE: Cat physiology? Hi Deb, Diana, Robin et al; Thank you for your replies I don't know that is why I asked the question! Anyway the question might have been posed incorrectly. It is not about the cats laying about at rest and then getting up to hunt. It was meant to be: When a cat engages it what I describe as a crouch and freeze stance(which they can stay in for extended periods) prior to the chase how is their body able to go from crouch and freeze to an explosive run in a nanosecond? If I did that, crouch, freeze and try to run, my body would not respond as quickly if at all. Deborah McWilliams wrote: > Hi John!!! > It is all neurology!!!! > > DebMcW > > > Date sent: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:22:22 -0400 > > From: John Kincaid > > To: "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" , > > Deborah McWilliams > > Subject: Cat physiology? > > > Hello Deborah and All > > I Know this isn't the lists topic now but I wonder how it is that a cat > > domestic or wild can stay stationery for extended periods of time and > > then spring into action in a nano second. > > > > Just curious > > > > John > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com" 14-MAY-1999 11:22:48.82 To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Is pen shape important for feedlot cattle? Thank you Ray Stricklin for taking the time to explain the pros and cons of pen shapes. Do you or others out there know of any research on the recommended kennel sizes for housing dogs. I'm not just interested in housing of commercial kennels but for safe housing of family pets? My interest is on the problems dogs isolated from the family and not living with other dogs. Are there specific shapes that have proven better than others? Any comments sharing your combined knowledge is greatly appreciated. Best Regards, George Phillip Quinlan All About Dogs Behavior and Training Center PO BOX 7781 Bend Or 97708-7781 From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 14-MAY-1999 11:40:59.51 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" Subj: RE: Cat physiology? At 01:10 PM 5/14/99 -0400, John Kincaid wrote: >Hi Deb, Diana, Robin et al; >Thank you for your replies >I don't know that is why I asked the question! Anyway the question might have been posed >incorrectly. It is not about the cats laying about at rest and then getting up to hunt. It >was meant to be: When a cat engages it what I describe as a crouch and freeze stance(which >they can stay in for extended periods) prior to the chase how is their body able to go from >crouch and freeze to an explosive run in a nanosecond? If I did that, crouch, freeze and try >to run, my body would not respond as quickly if at all. > >Deborah McWilliams wrote: Border Collies do it. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 14-MAY-1999 11:51:51.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs/pedigree selection At 12:49 PM 5/14/99 -0400, you wrote: >Breeding of animals (including pets) should work toward optimizing >traits (not breeding for extremes), and the advantages of hybrid >vigor (from outbreeding) should be exploited to the maximum benefit. > > >---------------------- >W. Ray Stricklin I agree. Unfortunately my hobby is showing dogs in obedience competition. According to the rules they must be registered. So I get registered dogs. I try to get dogs without Championships in their pedigree, BTW, because those have been bred for looks and not for work. Mine have obedience titles and herding titles in their backgrounds instead. I've been successful at it. In the past thirty some odd years I've titled all eight of the dogs that I have owned. I'm going to use a signature at the end of this post to show just how successful I've been. All without hybrid vigor from different breeds. Vivian Vivian Bregman and the Border Collies in Northern NJ Showing in Obedience Trials since 1963 President, Kelev Canine College, Inc. (Estab. 1970) Endorsed by Nat'l Assoc. of Dog Obedience Instructors and Member of Assoc. of Pet Dog Trainers. **** Trainer/Owner/Handler of:***** German Shepherd Dogs: Misty UD Bermuda CD, Sassy CDX (Home Bred), & Carla CDX Border Collies: Sandy UD Can. CD (2 & 1/2 CDX legs at 11 yrs of age), and Joker UD Can. CDX, VCC, CGC/TDI (Shown in Classic and Regional) The above dogs are all gone and sadly missed. U-CDX Trekker CDX (retired for seizures) CGC/TDI, VCC, U-UD Cosmo CDX Canadian CD (2 AKC UD legs) {3 OCH pts} CGC/TDI, VCC (shown in two Regionals) and U-CDX Goniff CDX CGC/TDI (Regional scores) bregman@interactive.net From: IN%"arkabc@arkanimals.com" "Ark Animals" 14-MAY-1999 11:58:36.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: resources Below please find some links to obtain information in regards to the predominant thread running through this group. The first article, although several years old reflects the stats and issues related to pet overpopulation when I wrote it. Current stats of overpopulation is estimated to be between 8-10 million (down over half the rate it was from the data available in early 1997). The following groups have information and programs related to the education, training and consistency of operations involving pet overpoulation issues. Spay Neuter Info. Veterinary comments can be obtained through the following. The first normally supplies all the updated statistics on the euthanasia and related issues. Each state also has their own veterinary group. In addition, there is has been a group studying the pet overpopulation problems and alternatives. Members are from various agencies including HSUS and UC Davis and they meet regularly in California. Birth control options for animals, although not yet released, are estimated to hit the market tentatively within the next few years. Early spay neuter, manditory microchipping and fines are other avenues being used to address this matter. Finally, there are organizations related to animal control training. http://www.netplace.net/naca/default.htm and the euthanasia course info (class was in April) http://www.netplace.net/naca/animeuth.htm The bottom line is that irresponsible pet ownership and the toleration of it are the underlying problems in relation to the domestic dog and cat situation. Everything else is a symptom. Regards, Diana Guerrero Diana Guerrero AATT Ark Animals PO Box 1154 Escondido, CA 92033 arkabc@arkanimals.com Appointments at 800.818.7387 24 Hour Information 760.599.3697 "We Take Over Where Noah Left Off!" From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 14-MAY-1999 12:09:45.62 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs/pedigree selection On Fri, 14 May 1999, VIVIAN BREGMAN wrote: >I agree. >Unfortunately my hobby is showing dogs in obedience competition. >According to the rules they must be registered. >So I get registered dogs. This is not *quite* correct. In order to show dogs at AKC obedience competitions, they must be *purebred*. However, they do NOT have to possess full registrations (and they don't have to be intact, either). You can obtain an ILP registration on any sterilized purebred dog by filling out a form and sending in a photo (for instance, my English cocker from the shelter and my dober dumped in a driveway can both have ILP registrations). Therefore, purebred rescues dogs ARE eligible for AKC obedience trials, even if they didn't come with "papers". Ione ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/ETDR.html East Tennessee Doberman Rescue ================================================== Life is what happens when you're planning on something else. From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 14-MAY-1999 12:21:16.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs/pedigree selection At 02:08 PM 5/14/99 -0400, Ione Smith wrote: >On Fri, 14 May 1999, VIVIAN BREGMAN wrote: > >>I agree. >>Unfortunately my hobby is showing dogs in obedience competition. >>According to the rules they must be registered. >>So I get registered dogs. > >This is not *quite* correct. > >In order to show dogs at AKC obedience competitions, they must be >*purebred*. However, they do NOT have to possess full registrations (and >they don't have to be intact, either). You can obtain an ILP registration >on any sterilized purebred dog by filling out a form and sending in a >photo (for instance, my English cocker from the shelter and my dober >dumped in a driveway can both have ILP registrations). Therefore, purebred >rescues dogs ARE eligible for AKC obedience trials, even if they didn't >come with "papers". > >Ione Actually, all of my dogs now have ILP registrations, and all except the first GSD are spayed. But the ILP is because until recently that's all you could get on Border Collies. And, I should have mentioned that the UKC recognizes cross breeds, and calls them AMBOR, and as long they are altered they can be shown in performance events. Thanks for reminding me....... Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"JDohner@aol.com" 14-MAY-1999 12:24:07.81 To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: pedigree selection In a message dated 5/14/99 5:01:06 PM, ws31@umail.umd.edu writes: << With the demise of the livestock breed associations has been the rapid move away from so-called purebred livestock and an increase in crossbreeding - a move that has generally been of considerable benefit to the fitness of animals; fitness from the well-being viewpoint. Animals that are outbred (crossbred) have fewer genetic recessive traits and generally more overall vigor - sometimes even increased behavioral vigor. >> << Breeding of animals (including pets) should work toward optimizing traits (not breeding for extremes), and the advantages of hybrid vigor (from outbreeding) should be exploited to the maximum benefit. >> The preservation of diversity as expressed in distinct breeds, which carry predictable traits, is the tool that allows for the breeding of successful hybrids. Parent purebred stocks must be maintained in order to have access to these traits. Diversity in breeds also preserves traits for future use in response to future unknown situations. The elimination of breeds in favor of huge crossbred unpredictable populations makes it more difficult to achieve the benefits of hybridizing the production generation. Purebreds also give you predictable traits. On a personal level, I'll take my Livestock Guard Dog (bred for thousands of years for specific traits) to protect my stock, over a mutt (however lovable) who may choose to watch the coyotes devour the whole herd. Jan Dohner From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 14-MAY-1999 12:35:49.19 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "'VIVIAN BREGMAN'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs/pedigree selection WOW! So what breed were your parents Viv? -----Original Message----- From: VIVIAN BREGMAN [SMTP:bregman@interactive.net] Sent: 14 May 1999 18:46 To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: Chaining of Dogs/pedigree selection I'm going to use a signature at the end of this post to show just how successful I've been. All without hybrid vigor from different breeds. Vivian Vivian Bregman and the Border Collies in Northern NJ Showing in Obedience Trials since 1963 President, Kelev Canine College, Inc. (Estab. 1970) Endorsed by Nat'l Assoc. of Dog Obedience Instructors and Member of Assoc. of Pet Dog Trainers. **** Trainer/Owner/Handler of:***** German Shepherd Dogs: Misty UD Bermuda CD, Sassy CDX (Home Bred), & Carla CDX Border Collies: Sandy UD Can. CD (2 & 1/2 CDX legs at 11 yrs of age), and Joker UD Can. CDX, VCC, CGC/TDI (Shown in Classic and Regional) The above dogs are all gone and sadly missed. U-CDX Trekker CDX (retired for seizures) CGC/TDI, VCC, U-UD Cosmo CDX Canadian CD (2 AKC UD legs) {3 OCH pts} CGC/TDI, VCC (shown in two Regionals) and U-CDX Goniff CDX CGC/TDI (Regional scores) bregman@interactive.net From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 14-MAY-1999 12:51:36.79 To: IN%"JDohner@aol.com" CC: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: pedigree selection I must speak up for mutts everywhere ... many of them are very intelligent. My mutt Keshound mix won his canine training class award for top competitor against many other pure-breeds. He can't do higher math, but I don't care. (Also, to be fair, I was wearing a fanny-pouch with dog biscuits in it.) I base this solely on opinion, not research, but I think mixed breeds allow nature to do her genetic best, naturally, and often the end result is preservation of the best genes in a lovely combination. Elizabeth On Fri, 14 May 1999 14:19:43 -0400 (EDT) JDohner@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/14/99 5:01:06 PM, ws31@umail.umd.edu writes: > << With the demise of the livestock breed associations has been the > rapid move away from so-called purebred livestock and an increase in > crossbreeding - a move that has generally been of considerable > benefit to the fitness of animals; fitness from the well-being > viewpoint. Animals that are outbred (crossbred) have fewer genetic > recessive traits and generally more overall vigor - sometimes even > increased behavioral vigor. >> > > << Breeding of animals (including pets) should work toward optimizing > traits (not breeding for extremes), and the advantages of hybrid > vigor (from outbreeding) should be exploited to the maximum benefit. >> > > The preservation of diversity as expressed in distinct breeds, which carry > predictable traits, is the tool that allows for the breeding of successful > hybrids. Parent purebred stocks must be maintained in order to have access > to these traits. Diversity in breeds also preserves traits for future use in > response to future unknown situations. The elimination of breeds in favor of > huge crossbred unpredictable populations makes it more difficult to achieve > the benefits of hybridizing the production generation. > > Purebreds also give you predictable traits. On a personal level, I'll take > my Livestock Guard Dog (bred for thousands of years for specific traits) to > protect my stock, over a mutt (however lovable) who may choose to watch the > coyotes devour the whole herd. > > Jan Dohner Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 14-MAY-1999 13:47:57.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs/pedigree selection At 07:19 PM 5/14/99 +0100, Robin Walker wrote: >WOW! So what breed were your parents Viv? Let's see, my father was born in Poland and my mother's parents were from Russia. But they were all Jewish. So do I have Hybrid Vigor?? Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 14-MAY-1999 14:17:58.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs Elizabeth and list Your idea for spay/neuter laws really concerns me. I would consider it a significant restriction if my rights and freedom if a law prohibited me from breeding my dog or cat, even if their mongrels. And who is to say that purebred dogs deserve to be propagated (and what registries would be accepted?), while dogs without pedigree are not? Looks like a political move for AKC. You are allowed to breed crippled breeds with horrible temperaments, but if your family would want some puppies from your pet and even if tehy had homes for them in advance, they should not be allowed to do so. What concerns me even more is the distinction between "backyard breeders" and "licenced breeders". I would think every puppy mill is a licenced breeding operation, while the amateur breeder who may have one good bitch and breeds her to a good stud, raises the puppies in the house and socailizes them well, is a backyard breeder. Don't take me wrong. I am as much as you are agains indiscriminate and irresponsible breeding, but I couldn't disagree more with your way of wanting to do it. Sometimes I think the world would be better off if less people tried to save it... I appreciate your good intentions, though. Andrew Luescher At 10:49 AM 5/13/99 -0400, you wrote: >Vivian: > >Most mandatory spay/neuter laws do not apply to breeders (I assume >that includes show dogs). The Fund for Animals has a wonderful >book (I don't think it's in print anymore, though) that provides >the actual legislation in this respect for various communities >across the county. Each one is a little different from the other, >but generally, the targetted audience is back-yard breeders and >those who indiscriminantly breed cats and dogs, not licensed >breeders. > >Your point about not being able to show a dog that isn't intact is >a good one. It seems to me some changes may need to be made from >the show organizations in this regard ... but that's beyond my >realm at the moment. > >Anyway, your comments are appreciated. > >Elizabeth > >On Wed, 12 May 1999 18:22:49 -0400 VIVIAN BREGMAN > wrote: > >> At 09:50 AM 5/12/99 -0400, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: >> >Peggy and List: >> > >> BTW, I wonder about this idea of mandatory spay/neutering. I >> have many friends who show their dogs in dog shows. They don't >> breed them, but cannot show them if they are not intact. Just >> how would this law work?? >> >> Vivian >> >> >> Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- >> interested in everything to do with science, >> especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net > >Elizabeth Chandler >Center of Marine Biotechnology >University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute >chandler@umbi.umd.edu > > > From: IN%"JDohner@aol.com" 14-MAY-1999 14:28:45.68 To: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: pedigree selection In a message dated 5/14/99 7:00:28 PM, chandler@umbi.umd.edu writes: << I base this solely on opinion, not research, but I think mixed breeds allow nature to do her genetic best, naturally, and often the end result is preservation of the best genes in a lovely combination. >> There is nothing at all wrong with mutts, but if you want a dog (or any other animal) for a specific job - seeing eye dog, hunting retriever, guard dog, small quiet family companion, herding dog, etc - you are much more likely to obtain the traits you desire if they have been selected for in a breed (it does not have to be a AKC or recognized breed - landrace or native breeds are often excellent at their jobs). Yes, the best seeing eye dog in the world might be a mutt, but the institutes that breed them have very specific needs and they tend to stick to specific breeds and even specific strains within those breeds. In that way they will get a far greater number of successful candidates with greater ease. That is the advantage of a breed - predictability. Jan Dohner From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 14-MAY-1999 14:39:06.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Neutering etc. Rosemary Your statement couldn't be more true. Thank you. Andrew At 03:28 PM 5/14/99 +0100, you wrote: >Surely part of the problem is the tendency to fight the last war? 50 years >ago the animal rescue organisation for which I volunteer was gassing box >after box of kittens with carbon monoxide. This no longer happens because >neutering is readily available and there are organisations which will >assist people who cannot afford the standard prices. Unwanted adult >animals are now much more the problem we have to deal with. > >My guess (with some evidence to back it up) is that the size of the adult >cat and dog population depends on the amount of resources which the human >population is prepared to provide. Thus the cat population goes up as cats >become more popular than dogs (don't bark all day & irritate the >neighbours if you go out to work). Hence there are more cats to be >abandoned when the human-animal relationship goes sour for one reason or >another, but there are more cat homes than dog homes available for us to >place the animals we take in. We FEEL overwhelmed by cat numbers & that >"something must be done to reduce the cat population" but maybe we are >reaching some kind of plateau where more neutering is less important than >more education about responsible pet ownership. Unless we do away with >companion animals altogether there will always be some animals who have to >be rehomed, because there will always be owners who die or get ill & have >no-one to take over. > >---------------------------------------- >Rosemary Rodd >Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre >Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 > > > From: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" 14-MAY-1999 14:58:58.13 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: resources Diana I agree very much with your conclusions. Newer data estimate the number of dogs euthanized in shelters much lower, at 2.1 milion annually in the US (Patronek and Glickman, Anthrozoos 8:1,25-42,1994. Andrew At 10:48 AM 5/14/99 -0700, you wrote: >Below please find some links to obtain information in regards to the >predominant thread running through this group. The first article, although >several years old reflects the stats and issues related to pet >overpopulation when I wrote it. Current stats of overpopulation is >estimated to be between 8-10 million (down over half the rate it was from >the data available in early 1997). > > > >The following groups have information and programs related to the >education, training and consistency of operations involving pet >overpoulation issues. > >Spay Neuter Info. > > > > > >Veterinary comments can be obtained through the following. The first >normally supplies all the updated statistics on the euthanasia and related >issues. Each state also has their own veterinary group. > > > > >In addition, there is has been a group studying the pet overpopulation >problems and alternatives. Members are from various agencies including HSUS >and UC Davis and they meet regularly in California. > >Birth control options for animals, although not yet released, are estimated >to hit the market tentatively within the next few years. Early spay neuter, >manditory microchipping and fines are other avenues being used to address >this matter. > >Finally, there are organizations related to animal control training. >http://www.netplace.net/naca/default.htm >and the euthanasia course info (class was in April) >http://www.netplace.net/naca/animeuth.htm > >The bottom line is that irresponsible pet ownership and the toleration of >it are the underlying problems in relation to the domestic dog and cat >situation. Everything else is a symptom. >Regards, >Diana Guerrero >Diana Guerrero >AATT Ark Animals >PO Box 1154 >Escondido, CA 92033 >arkabc@arkanimals.com > >Appointments at 800.818.7387 >24 Hour Information 760.599.3697 >"We Take Over Where Noah Left Off!" > > > From: IN%"arkabc@arkanimals.com" "Ark Animals" 14-MAY-1999 15:14:15.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: nuances of the issue In regard to some of the posts on breeding. There are a wide variety of "breeders" and tiers of good and bad apply to both "professional" and "backyard." Those who are really committed have an incredible knowledge of genetics, behavioral needs, are committed to the "breed" (what ever that may be), and committed to the long-term welfare of those animals they put on the ground. It is a highly specialized field and the _majority_ fail in various areas. Like most other businesses it engages in trade --of animals. Of interest Diana Guerrero Diana Guerrero AATT Ark Animals PO Box 1154 Escondido, CA 92033 arkabc@arkanimals.com Appointments at 800.818.7387 24 Hour Information 760.599.3697 "We Take Over Where Noah Left Off!" From: IN%"arkabc@arkanimals.com" "Ark Animals" 14-MAY-1999 15:19:39.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Back to behavior...a question I never got any assistance from the list regarding a couple of literature citation requests. Here is my request again. A colleague of mine, whose ability I trust and respect, has anecdotal information based on her personal experience in shifting of behavior of domestic canines and felines toward pregnant human females. She also experienced the shift personally with her animal clients when she became pregnant. I have never witnessed any of the wives tales related to menstration, etc. However, I have not ever been around pregnant females working animals. Has anyone experienced this? Do you have any references you can send me? Thyroid or adrenal dysfunction, epilepsy and related resources related to aggressive and behavioral abnormalities would also be appreciated. Diana Guerrero Diana Guerrero AATT Ark Animals PO Box 1154 Escondido, CA 92033 arkabc@arkanimals.com Appointments at 800.818.7387 24 Hour Information 760.599.3697 "We Take Over Where Noah Left Off!" From: IN%"hanebaum@cadvision.com" "Udo Hanebaum" 14-MAY-1999 16:42:01.34 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: neuter/pedigree selection Hi everybody I think that everyone basically agrees that the problem with too high a pet population is really people, and that the animals pay the price. Be that spay/neuter, killing them, placing them in shelters and rescues new homes and so on. The disagreements are the *method* to the goal of a healthy pet population. I still think that a licences to keep a dog with testing, including demonstrating knowledge in the keeping of the species would be the best. Now before you yell that it is a god given right to own property and dogs are legally property lets talk about a true to life example. I do not know if there are any falconer on the list (and I am not one either) but they are a great example. Since the trade and ownership of raptors is largely restricted due to the endangerd species acts, knowledgeable handling and care are required by law. Although there are differences from state to state and province to province, the following is not unusual. (alberta example) As a novice falconer you are first restricted to only one bird of a native species that is easier to keep. You have to work with a mentor who will teach you and help with advice and so on, but will also inspect how you keep the bird. The facility in which you keep the bird is inspected by a conservation officer as well and has to be approved (before you get the bird). After one year of keeping the bird you write an exam, testing you knowledge. After you have another 3 years (I think?) experience you will be allowed to keep 2 birds of any native species and after 10 years there are very little restrictions and you can become a mentor/supervisor yourself. Would a similar system not work for companion animals? I think such a rigorous system would solve the problem to a large degree. It would not matter what type of dog pure or mixed, but restrict ownership to one only for a few years. During that time you have to train the dog and the breeder or obedience instructor or a knowledgeable person comes for a housevisit once in a while, making sure you keep the animal properly. If you don't, no more dogs for you. Same if you breed dogs while being a beginner. Incidently, despite the fact that the raptors are endangerd species almost anybody can own one, you just have to learn how to keep them and demonstrate it. Best I can tell the system works. So, what do you think about this? Udo From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 14-MAY-1999 18:34:04.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs/pedigree selection In a message dated 99-05-14 12:49:19 EDT, you write: << Breeding of animals (including pets) should work toward optimizing traits (not breeding for extremes), and the advantages of hybrid vigor (from outbreeding) should be exploited to the maximum benefit. >> I couldn't agree with you more. The problem in companion animals is an obsession with reproducing certain, limited traits that generally have absolutely no connection to the overall fitness of the animal. Color and coat length are two very over-emphasized traits. Then there was all the silliness over things such as broader heads with narrower hips (hello? no one foresaw a problem there?). In other words, that which is eye-catching and in vogue at the shows. In my own breed, and even more so in the Rhodesian Ridgeback, the ridge itself is over-valued and rigidly defined. No one seems to care if the dog can't hunt, as long as he has a perfect ridge! I want a dog who can hunt, for years, effectively. I don't care if his ridge has an extra crown or if it doesn't exist! There was a day when the companion animals were working animals. The cats that were the best ratters and mousers were the valued ones, and the ones that reproduced. If they were pretty but couldn't catch a mouse, no human could be bothered with them. Too much coat would be a hindrance and negatively impact health. The same was true with dogs. Be they flock guardian, ratter, herder, hunter, guarder or draft animal, they needed to be hardy, healthy, and good at their job or they couldn't, or were not permitted to, reproduce. Thus the pedigree. If one wanted a good field dog or herding dog, one looked for a dog from a line of proven performers. There was a high degree of natural selection involved, based on numerous traits that created a dog that could perform. There was a time that a dog who was outstanding in performance was admired and respected even if he was ugly as hell. Dogs with too much or too little coat were ruled out of the gene pool naturally because this affected stamina, health, or working ability. Dogs with unusual colored coats went the same way. Too dark, too light, too visible, or not visible enough for the rigors and demands of the job determined the future of reproduction of the color trait. Dogs with health issues that affected soundness, stamina, or longevity were not tolerated. Outcrossing to a dog with superior performance ability was not frowned on. Performance counted more than adherence to narrow definitions of physical type. Long before registries and breed associations, there were oral histories of pedigrees that were remembered and passed on based on the performance of the ancestral animals. We evolved to artificial selection based on ear and tail set, along with coat colors and lengths and narrow definitions of size. Theoretically, all this was somewhat based on "standards" originally intended to describe physical traits necessary for the optimum performance dog. This evolution came about as the need for working dogs was reduced and the majority of the population of dogs and cats moved in to the realm of "companion animals". The major criteria for companion animals is that they be aesthetically pleasing, especially to the eye, while being compliant, cooperative, quiet and basically, low energy. Coat, size etc. are now a matter of what fits the lifestyle and desires of the owner ("I want a small dog with short hair that is good with children, doesn't shed, and doesn't require a lot of time or exercise" or "I want something different, flashy, and stylish that will give me status" or "I want something big, intimidating, and mean to boost my weak ego"). Now we look for the wrong traits in pedigrees, thus the debacle of unsound animals we produce. Registries such as the AKC have compounded the issue by promulgating the myth of purebred superiority and their own importance. Quite frankly, they are a whore for the registration fees, and whoever gets there first with check in hand is knighted by the AKC, while the rest are permanently barred. Thus Vivian's complaint that the working lines of her breed have been forever barred from AKC, effectively handing the future of the breed to the "look pretty in the ring" crowd. The hardy, healthy working lines of this breed are now permanently excluded from being AKC registered. Thus, the future survival of those traits is in great jeopardy, as they will be preserved only by those few who actually still work the dogs and the gene pool will become increasingly limited, for both the working dogs and the "look pretty" dogs. It is not pedigrees as a tool for breeding that is the culprit, it is the closed stud book system and breeding for the wrong (extreme) traits that have created our problems. Off my soapbox. Kathy Hughes From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 14-MAY-1999 18:43:07.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs/pedigree selection In a message dated 99-05-14 14:18:35 EDT, you write: << This is not *quite* correct. In order to show dogs at AKC obedience competitions, they must be *purebred*. However, they do NOT have to possess full registrations (and they don't have to be intact, either). You can obtain an ILP registration on any sterilized purebred dog by filling out a form and sending in a photo (for instance, my English cocker from the shelter and my dober dumped in a driveway can both have ILP registrations). Therefore, purebred rescues dogs ARE eligible for AKC obedience trials, even if they didn't come with "papers". Ione >> Ione, You are correct, but for those whose purpose is to preserve the gene pool of dogs with good working ability, intact dogs are required. That is Vivian's point. She is trying to keep the genes of dogs who can work in the AKC registered gene pool. Not an easy goal in any AKC breed by the way. They didn't leave her much to work with in her breed, as the best working lines were excluded from the AKC closed stud book system. Regards, Kathy Hughes From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 14-MAY-1999 18:54:14.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: pedigree selection In a message dated 99-05-14 15:00:28 EDT, you write: << I base this solely on opinion, not research, but I think mixed breeds allow nature to do her genetic best, naturally, and often the end result is preservation of the best genes in a lovely combination. Elizabeth >> Elizabeth, I have to agree with you that some mixed dogs end up being the repository of all the best genes of their ancestors. They are often amazingly hardy, intelligent dogs. There are certain mixes that seem more successful than others. Unfortunately, there are some that seem to be a repository of all the faulty genes of their ancestors also. I would be the last to condemn the mixed breed dog as I have known too many of value. However, Jan Dohner's comments concerning the purebred are valid. The main advantage is predictablility of traits. As a dog trainer, I find knowing what made the mix invaluable in the training of a mixed breed. Regards, Kathy Hughes From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 14-MAY-1999 18:58:04.51 To: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: 2nd Request: Time required for humane euthanssia ofunwantedcompanion animals Elizabeth Chandler wrote: > I know, it's one heck of a big job ... but I want to at least try to make a > difference. ...Or even if you DON"T make a bit of difference at all Elizabeth, you must still do that which drives you on. You are perfecting the fine art of caring... a very necessary job to be practiced in this world right now. Best wishes to you :-) Donna Reynolds From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 14-MAY-1999 19:09:31.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs In a message dated 99-05-14 16:37:36 EDT, you write: << What concerns me even more is the distinction between "backyard breeders" and "licenced breeders". I would think every puppy mill is a licenced breeding operation >> Andrew, It is true that many puppymills are, in fact, USDA licensed and inspected. Many, however, merely exist without supervision of any kind in the back woods somewhere. To give an example, I took part in an "undercover" operation 17 years ago that attempted to put a TN puppymill out of business. We succeeded in getting the USDA licensing pulled. We were less successful getting AKC to ban the owner from future registering of AKC litters. The owner moved to a different county in a remote area and proceeded to build a larger, and even more horrific, operation based on wholesale milling of AKC breeds. Last fall, this operation was raided. If you heard anything about the Lyle, TN puppymill on the news or the net, same person. So, what is the "definition" of a "backyard breeder"????????? Oops, we dog people are taking over this list again.....sorreee! Kathy Hughes From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 14-MAY-1999 19:25:30.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: neuter/pedigree selection In a message dated 99-05-14 18:47:42 EDT, you write: << Would a similar system not work for companion animals? I think such a rigorous system would solve the problem to a large degree. It would not matter what type of dog pure or mixed, but restrict ownership to one only for a few years. During that time you have to train the dog and the breeder or obedience instructor or a knowledgeable person comes for a housevisit once in a while, making sure you keep the animal properly. If you don't, no more dogs for you. Same if you breed dogs while being a beginner. >> Udo, Yes, it would work, if you could get it in place. I think the problem here would be getting such a program instituted. There would be endless debate over the qualifications and criteria for a "knowledgeable person", various factions with opposing viewpoints and political clout would want in on the act and want to impact/control the criteria (AKC, HSUS, breed clubs, AHS, PETA, local animal control, etc.) Same with the criteria for keeping the animal "properly". Also, where would the funding for such a program come from? Kathy Hughes From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 14-MAY-1999 22:34:51.31 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs/pedigree selection On Fri, 14 May 1999 Kattykorn2@aol.com wrote: >Thus the pedigree. If one wanted a good field dog or herding dog, one looked >for a dog from a line of proven performers. There was a high degree of >natural selection involved, based on numerous traits that created a dog that >could perform. Before we wax too misty-eyed about the good old days -- rather than "natural selection" building these perfect dogs of yore, weren't most of the non-performers actually "culled" (read: killed)? Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/ETDR.html East Tennessee Doberman Rescue ================================================== Life is what happens when you're planning on something else. From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 14-MAY-1999 22:38:19.97 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs/pedigree selection On Fri, 14 May 1999 Kattykorn2@aol.com wrote: >Ione, > >You are correct, but for those whose purpose is to preserve the gene pool of >dogs with good working ability, intact dogs are required. That is Vivian's >point. errrr....as I understood it, her point was that she "had" to buy registered dogs because she couldn't compete in obedience with unregistered ones. Which is, as I pointed out, not strictly correct. As Vivian herself noted, after I reminded her. And, as Vivian also noted, most of her dogs have been sterilized. Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/ETDR.html East Tennessee Doberman Rescue ================================================== Life is what happens when you're planning on something else. From: IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu" "Kale H. McE. Kevan" 15-MAY-1999 03:04:20.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: neuter/pedigree selection On Fri, 14 May 1999, Udo Hanebaum wrote: > I do not know if there are any falconer on the list (and I am not one > either) but they are a great example. Since the trade and ownership > of raptors is largely restricted due to the endangerd species acts, > knowledgeable handling and care are required by law. I'm not a falconer yet, but am working on it. I have to take an exam, build appropriate housing, have it inspected and approved, and find an experienced mentor before I can aquire a bird. > Would a similar system not work for companion animals? I think such a > rigorous system would solve the problem to a large degree. It would > not matter what type of dog pure or mixed, but restrict ownership to > one only for a few years. During that time you have to train the dog > and the breeder or obedience instructor or a knowledgeable person > comes for a housevisit once in a while, making sure you keep the > animal properly. If you don't, no more dogs for you. Same if you > breed dogs while being a beginner. No. I don't think it would work. It would help a lot, but the situation is just not the same. A hawk will live for 30 years or so, but a falconer need not keep it that long. If s/he burns out on the sport, must move to some place where a hawk cannot be kept, runs out of time or money, or wants to try a bird of a different species, s/he can simply 'hack back' -- that is, release the bird and leave food out for it until it stops coming back. As I understand it, this is a pretty common practice -- many species can be trained very quickly, and some falconers find it easier to capture and train a new bird each season rather than keep one through a moult. Beginners are limited to common (not necessarily easier to keep) species, and many choose to release their red-tailed hawk or kestrel at the end of the apprenticeship (two years in Colorado) so they can get a larger falcon or an accipiter. A wild-caught hawk looses its tameness very rapidly, and if the falconer has been hunting with the bird as s/he should, the bird has never lost survival skills. If the bird is imprinted on humans, it is probably a captive-bred Peregrine, Gyr, or hybrid, and the retiring falconer will have little trouble finding another falconer to take such a coveted and expensive creature. What happens to the dog if the novice dog-owner proves that s/he can't keep it properly, or decides s/he doesn't really want it, or needs to move someplace where s/he can't keep it? Probably the same thing that happens to it now. Of course, this would probably happen a lot less often under the system you propose, since people would no longer be able to impulsively aquire pets, but it would hardly be a perfect solution. You never hear of a healthy hawk being euthanized, because there is always someplace for it to go. Dogs and cats aren't so lucky. From: IN%"colwellk@ozemail.com.au" "Kim Colwell" 15-MAY-1999 03:12:23.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Neutering etc. Why is this such a big issue? When I see the number of native animals killed or mutilated by feral dogs and cats I strongly support stringent breeding (and, for that matter, ownership) regulations. Who can argue against it? It is ludicrous that anyone can pop into a shop and walk out with a living, breathing animal. Of course there is going to be an excess of now unwanted Chrissy presents left to fend for themselves. Don't wait for people to learn responsibility (the US gun laws have proven that) - enforce it upon them. From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 15-MAY-1999 03:33:22.51 To: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs/pedigree selection At 08:27 PM 5/14/99 -0400, Kattykorn2@aol.com wrote: > >It is not pedigrees as a tool for breeding that is the culprit, it is the >closed stud book system and breeding for the wrong (extreme) traits that have >created our problems. > >Off my soapbox. > >Kathy Hughes I used to have GSDs and show them in breed. At one show I asked the judge why I was second in the class of two. Remember, we are talking about a German Shepherd dog. Judge said: Well, she moves better in the front than the other one, and in the back, and from the side, and coming and going, and she's really balanced, and, she's an all round better moving bitch than the other one. Says I: You do know that you put her second? Judge says; her coat is too soft and should be shorter. I thanked him and left the ring (I am always polite) and never showed in the breed ring again. If movement is less important than coat in GSDs, than I wanted out. I put a CDX on this awful coated but well moving bitch before a problem with anal fistulas forced me to retire her. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 15-MAY-1999 03:47:07.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_bKwj9RYNlfhCl8YI/pN6sg) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable This is a big issue because whilst everyone agrees that there is a = problem of resposibility, not all of us agree that a neutering policy is = the solution. If all but a few dogs are neutered then supply may be reduced and pets = may become more expensive. Not a bad thing in my opinion, but it still doesn't ensure that the = people that own pets treat them correctly. They may even become a status symbol (I guess some people buy pedigree = dogs for this reason already). There are two routes that will have a greater effect on welfare: education legislation Legislation tends not to work in my country (UK), it just makes people = think that things are being done properly, but it requires so much = policing that it is rarely effective.=20 Education is much more effective. In the UK our government wants to = introduce 'good citizenship' classes for scholl kids and has introduced = parenting classes for adults. Most of the problems I see are not due to malevolence they are due to = ignorance, and this can be solved. Why not include 'animal care' in the kid's classes and have optional = 'pet ownership classes' for prospective pet owners. JB --Boundary_(ID_bKwj9RYNlfhCl8YI/pN6sg) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
This is a big issue because whilst = everyone=20 agrees that there is a problem of resposibility, not all of us agree = that a=20 neutering policy is the solution.
 
If all but a few dogs are neutered = then supply=20 may be reduced and pets may become more=20 expensive.
Not a bad thing in my opinion, but = it still=20 doesn't ensure that the people that own pets treat them = correctly.
 
They may even become a status symbol (I guess some = people buy=20 pedigree dogs for this reason already).
 
There are two routes that will have a greater effect = on=20 welfare:
 
education
legislation
 
 
Legislation tends not to work in my country (UK), it = just=20 makes people think that things are being done properly, but it requires = so much=20 policing that it is rarely effective.
Education is much more effective. In the UK our = government=20 wants to introduce 'good citizenship' classes for scholl kids and has = introduced=20 parenting classes for adults.
 
Most of the problems I see are not due to = malevolence they are=20 due to ignorance, and this can be solved.
 
Why not include 'animal care' in the kid's classes = and have=20 optional 'pet ownership classes' for prospective pet = owners.
 
JB
 
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_bKwj9RYNlfhCl8YI/pN6sg)-- From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 15-MAY-1999 03:54:36.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs/pedigree selection At 12:37 AM 5/15/99 -0400, Ione Smith wrote: >On Fri, 14 May 1999 Kattykorn2@aol.com wrote: > >>Ione, >> >>You are correct, but for those whose purpose is to preserve the gene pool of >>dogs with good working ability, intact dogs are required. That is Vivian's >>point. > >errrr....as I understood it, her point was that she "had" to buy >registered dogs because she couldn't compete in obedience with >unregistered ones. Which is, as I pointed out, not strictly correct. As >Vivian herself noted, after I reminded her. > >And, as Vivian also noted, most of her dogs have been sterilized. > >Ione Yes, that's because I bred a litter thirty years ago and still worry about what happened to the pups, altho they must be long dead by now. I kept in touch for a long time, BTW. So I don't want to breed. I just want to be able to buy a BC with enough brains to show in obedience. Not the pretty coated head up dogs they're breeding for the breed ring. I will probably get my next pup from working lines, no AKC, and ILP it. Actually, that's how I got my first one --- back in the early seventies, before the AKC dragged the breed, kicking and screaming, into the herding group. Vivian off to three UKC shows, where they accept mutts. Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 15-MAY-1999 15:20:56.86 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" Subj: RE: -- No Subject -- Jon: Animal care or animal welfare in school --- great idea. I've often thought that would be a great avenue for education and, though I haven't gotten around to it yet, it is something I want to pursue in my community. Elizabeth On Sat, 15 May 1999 10:44:19 +0100 Jon Bowen wrote: > This is a big issue because whilst everyone agrees that there is a problem of resposibility, not all of us agree that a neutering policy is the solution. > > If all but a few dogs are neutered then supply may be reduced and pets may become more expensive. > Not a bad thing in my opinion, but it still doesn't ensure that the people that own pets treat them correctly. > > They may even become a status symbol (I guess some people buy pedigree dogs for this reason already). > > There are two routes that will have a greater effect on welfare: > > education > legislation > > > Legislation tends not to work in my country (UK), it just makes people think that things are being done properly, but it requires so much policing that it is rarely effective. > Education is much more effective. In the UK our government wants to introduce 'good citizenship' classes for scholl kids and has introduced parenting classes for adults. > > Most of the problems I see are not due to malevolence they are due to ignorance, and this can be solved. > > Why not include 'animal care' in the kid's classes and have optional 'pet ownership classes' for prospective pet owners. > > JB > > > Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 15-MAY-1999 15:29:34.87 To: IN%"colwellk@ozemail.com.au" "Kim Colwell" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Neutering etc. Kim: I agree with you wholeheartedly. But there are those who feel that such legislation (in the U.S.) is an encroachment upon their rights (same with the gun laws!). There are those who think that an animal is an item of ownership (like a T.V. or lawnmower) and that the government cannot dictate to them how or what to do with their animals. I think an intelligent government could easily argue as you have that these are living, breathing beings and cannot, under any circumstances, be compared to other items of ownership. But, our country is so sensitive in infringing citizens' rights, they end up stomping all over someone or something else's rights in the meantime (i.e., can't legislate guns to appease the "right to bear arms" rationale, but then what about the rights of those who are killed with the guns!). The other problem with legislation is, indeed, enforcement. In our county, Pit Bulls are illegal. But I see so many Pit Bull pups, some of which are advertised for sale on posters, and loose Pit Bulls running the streets, it is clear that the law is not being enforced. How could a animal control and police force that cannot handle current abuses of animal law take on the control of those who refuse to spay/neuter their pets? Don't get me wrong --- I'm on your side. I don't think we'll EVER run out of dogs and cats if spay/neuter laws are enacted and enforced and I think it is the best way to curb the overpopulation problem (along with education of the general public). But there are many roadblocks that have to somehow be overcome. Elizabeth On Sat, 15 May 1999 19:13:16 +1000 Kim Colwell wrote: > Why is this such a big issue? When I see the number of native animals > killed or mutilated by feral dogs and cats I strongly support stringent > breeding (and, for that matter, ownership) regulations. Who can argue > against it? It is ludicrous that anyone can pop into a shop and walk out > with a living, breathing animal. Of course there is going to be an excess > of now unwanted Chrissy presents left to fend for themselves. Don't wait > for people to learn responsibility (the US gun laws have proven that) - > enforce it upon them. Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 15-MAY-1999 15:41:36.69 To: IN%"luescher@vet.purdue.edu" "Andrew Luescher" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs Andrew: Your comments are well taken; but the problem is that many people allow their animals to breed out a shear laziness (leave an female in heat outside for all of the neighborhood males to inpregnate, etc.) and then they take the litter and drop it off at the shelter. Some even take the litter out to the highway or the woods and just toss them out of the car. It's sad that breeding should have to be legislated but what is happening to so many animals in this country every year demands that it be done. Under most mandatory spay/neuter laws, you could still breed, if you wanted to, but you would have to purchase a license to do it. This would hopefully cut down on the unplanned, accidental, or don't care type breeders and, as a result, on the number of litters being given up for destruction by euthanasia every year. Plus, I'm a big proponent for spaying/neutering cats and dogs BEFORE they leave the shelter ... and I have seen research which supports spay/neutering as early as 7 weeks (I'm sure there is some out there that does not support it, but I haven't seen it yet). Even if everyone were still allowed to breed, at the very least prevent the animals adopted from the shelters from breeding by spaying/neutering them before they go to their adopted homes. Elizabeth On Fri, 14 May 1999 15:17:25 -0500 Andrew Luescher wrote: > Elizabeth and list > > Your idea for spay/neuter laws really concerns me. I would consider it a > significant restriction if my rights and freedom if a law prohibited me > from breeding my dog or cat, even if their mongrels. And who is to say that > purebred dogs deserve to be propagated (and what registries would be > accepted?), while dogs without pedigree are not? Looks like a political > move for AKC. You are allowed to breed crippled breeds with horrible > temperaments, but if your family would want some puppies from your pet and > even if tehy had homes for them in advance, they should not be allowed to > do so. > > What concerns me even more is the distinction between "backyard breeders" > and "licenced breeders". I would think every puppy mill is a licenced > breeding operation, while the amateur breeder who may have one good bitch > and breeds her to a good stud, raises the puppies in the house and > socailizes them well, is a backyard breeder. > > Don't take me wrong. I am as much as you are agains indiscriminate and > irresponsible breeding, but I couldn't disagree more with your way of > wanting to do it. Sometimes I think the world would be better off if less > people tried to save it... I appreciate your good intentions, though. > > Andrew Luescher > > At 10:49 AM 5/13/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Vivian: > > > >Most mandatory spay/neuter laws do not apply to breeders (I assume > >that includes show dogs). The Fund for Animals has a wonderful > >book (I don't think it's in print anymore, though) that provides > >the actual legislation in this respect for various communities > >across the county. Each one is a little different from the other, > >but generally, the targetted audience is back-yard breeders and > >those who indiscriminantly breed cats and dogs, not licensed > >breeders. > > > >Your point about not being able to show a dog that isn't intact is > >a good one. It seems to me some changes may need to be made from > >the show organizations in this regard ... but that's beyond my > >realm at the moment. > > > >Anyway, your comments are appreciated. > > > >Elizabeth > > > >On Wed, 12 May 1999 18:22:49 -0400 VIVIAN BREGMAN > > wrote: > > > >> At 09:50 AM 5/12/99 -0400, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: > >> >Peggy and List: > >> > > >> BTW, I wonder about this idea of mandatory spay/neutering. I > >> have many friends who show their dogs in dog shows. They don't > >> breed them, but cannot show them if they are not intact. Just > >> how would this law work?? > >> > >> Vivian > >> > >> > >> Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > >> interested in everything to do with science, > >> especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net > > > >Elizabeth Chandler > >Center of Marine Biotechnology > >University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute > >chandler@umbi.umd.edu > > > > > > Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"Dr.Norbert.Brockmann@t-online.de" 16-MAY-1999 02:49:01.92 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Rudy: Dog with seperation anx. Dear Rudy, Sadly the safest way to win the cooperation of the ownwers is to charge money for the advice. Of course providing special behaviour-clinic appointments will distinguish your advice from all the other "good ideas" the ownwers will get just everywhere. In the case of seperation anxiety I like to tell the ownwers: "sometimes to give love can mean to withhold it and this is the most difficult and unselfish kind of love." Being informed about the reasoning behind the behaviour programm almost all owners are ready to go for it. They almost always love their dogs (mine is a referal praxis for behaviour therapy and maybe I have a very favourable selection of clients). They also get a program of "non intimate" training activeties for the dog which will satisfy their emotional needs. These cases normally are fun, because dogs and owners are lovely and the prognoses is so good. Tell your owners they can give as much love as they want (there is never to much), but to apply it with brain. Real love is in the interest of the love-one. Have fun. Norbert From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 16-MAY-1999 07:54:33.74 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs On Sat, 15 May 1999, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: >Your comments are well taken; but the problem is that many people >allow their animals to breed out a shear laziness (leave an female >in heat outside for all of the neighborhood males to inpregnate, >etc.) and then they take the litter and drop it off at the shelter. Case in point: my next door neighbor--a very nice man in general--has a household full of cats. A neighborhood tom recently decided to move into his house. Now my neighbor has TWO litters of kittens--and, of course, he blames the tom rather than his failure to spay his own cats. >Under most mandatory spay/neuter laws, you could still breed, if >you wanted to, but you would have to purchase a license to do it. >This would hopefully cut down on the unplanned, accidental, or >don't care type breeders and, as a result, on the number of litters >being given up for destruction by euthanasia every year. Don't you think that, instead of fewer accidental breedings, you'd actually just see more puppies and kittens being drowned/buried alive/etc.? People would simple destroy the evidence that breeding had occurred. Ione ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/ETDR.html East Tennessee Doberman Rescue ================================================== Life is what happens when you're planning on something else. From: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" 16-MAY-1999 11:21:14.54 To: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs Ione Smith wrote: > Don't you think that, instead of fewer accidental breedings, you'd > actually just see more puppies and kittens being drowned/buried > alive/etc.? People would simple destroy the evidence that breeding had > occurred. > > Ione > Ione: That's a good question ... I don't know the answer to that. It certainly is a strong possibility. I have to do some research on the successes (or not) of other communities that have legislated for mandatory spay/neutering. Most of the legisation I have that was passed, was from the early 1990's ... so it's possible they have found that legislation doesn't work and that the legislation has since been repealed. IIt is my hope that it is, in fact, working, but the possibility of inhumane destruction of the "evidence" is definitely one to consider. I'll have to get back to you on that. Elizabeth Chandler Center of Marine Biotechnology University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute chandler@umbi.umd.edu From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 16-MAY-1999 11:45:48.35 To: IN%"chandler@umbi.umd.edu" "Elizabeth Chandler" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs On Sun, 16 May 1999, Elizabeth Chandler wrote: >That's a good question ... I don't know the answer to that. It >certainly is a strong possibility. I have to do some research on >the successes (or not) of other communities that have legislated >for mandatory spay/neutering. When you do this research, just remember that you're talking about two different things here. One is mandatory (or regulated) sterilization; prohibition of breeding is a separate issue and would have different effects. Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/ETDR.html East Tennessee Doberman Rescue ================================================== Life is what happens when you're planning on something else. From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 16-MAY-1999 12:09:20.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs, euthanasia and other issues In a message dated 5/16/99 9:03:56 AM Central Daylight Time, ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu writes: << Don't you think that, instead of fewer accidental breedings, you'd actually just see more puppies and kittens being drowned/buried alive/etc.? People would simple destroy the evidence that breeding had occurred. >> Having read this thread for what seems like an interminable amount of time, I must chime in. People usually don't want to do the "dirty" deed themselves, they probably would just abandon the animals. And in their "Disney" way of thinking that all animal life just works out, assume that someone will raise them, they will fend for themselves etc. I am not so sure that mandatory spay/neuter laws would deter people anyway. The reluctance to spay and neuter runs very deep, as evidence by Ione's example of the neighbor and the tom cat. He probably intellectually realizes that neutering his animals would stop the litters, but for some reason emotionally won't do it. Again, education works best because people need to understand the problem and not just look at it from their small window on the world. Besides, when I go into the shelter in my city, there are many more adolescent animals for adoption than puppies and kittens. In my mind the euthanasia of unwanted animals is not simply a "spay/neuter" issue. The problem is the unwillingness or inability to keep pets if things get difficult and inconvenient. As for adoption from breeders, while I am sure that there are breeders who keep in touch with their owners, many do not. So, even if that pet starts out in a "wanted" home, how many are still there after 1-3 years? I see many people in my behavior practice with a problem purebred dog (I also see mixed breeds, none are exempt) who have never contacted the breeder again much less remember their name, location or any other information. I see the problem not in the procurement of dogs and cats, but in the lack of committment to keeping them. Much of that stems from the ignorance of normal dog and cat behavior, how to influence it and how to change it. And yes, from time to time from owning the wrong pet or an unacceptable pet. Debbie Horwitz, DVM, Dip. American College of Veterinary Behaviorists Veterinary Behavior Consultations St. Louis, Missouri From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 16-MAY-1999 13:56:21.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs At 09:53 AM 5/16/99 -0400, Ione Smith wrote: >Don't you think that, instead of fewer accidental breedings, you'd >actually just see more puppies and kittens being drowned/buried >alive/etc.? People would simple destroy the evidence that breeding had >occurred. > >Ione Actually, No. What would happen is that instead of five dollar or so break on your license if your dog was altered, it would be fifty one hundred. So that somebody with three unaltered dogs would pay three hundred thirty dollars, say, and someone with three altered dogs would pay thirty dollars. So --- People would stop licensing dogs. Rabies would reappear, since the major reason that people give rabies shots to their dogs is because they can't get a license without it. (Present company excluded, of course) There's a great book out, the name of which I cannot remember, but it's called something like unintended consequences. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 16-MAY-1999 14:00:33.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: , euthanasia and other issues At 02:07 PM 5/16/99 -0400, DebHdvm@aol.com wrote: As for adoption from breeders, while I am sure that there are >breeders who keep in touch with their owners, many do not. So, even if that >pet starts out in a "wanted" home, how many are still there after 1-3 years? >Debbie Horwitz, DVM, Dip. American College of Veterinary Behaviorists The last dog I bought the breeder made me sign a statement as follows. I paid $550 for the puppy. $50 of that went to Border Collie Rescue. Should I ever not want the dog, ever, she will buy the dog back from me for $500. I am not interested, only because when I get a dog no matter the problems it's my dog for life, but if I ever couldn't keep the dog, major family problems, say, I certainly would want my $500 back. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 16-MAY-1999 14:05:24.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Grandma's spinning in the grave! Good plug for behaviour therapy Debbie. > Much of that stems from the ignorance of normal >dog and cat behavior, how to influence it and how to change it. And yes, >from time to time from owning the wrong pet or an unacceptable pet. >Debbie Horwitz, DVM, Dip. American College of Veterinary Behaviorists >Veterinary Behavior Consultations >St. Louis, Missouri But what is happening to people? Are they getting soft? My grandmother and her daughter drowned the farm kittens. At birth, into a sack a bucket of water and a brick on top. Now we have a multi million pound industry for rescue and recuperation that attracts people to rescue like moths to the flame. I have been called by a woman in a field ten miles from here who discovered a nest of bald pink rodents. What should she do? Who should she call? Would I care to drive out and attend? How about just covering them over with the earth that has been disturbed? I suggested. "Eek!" she eeked. "What if something eats them?" "Well" I empathised. "In one sense they ARE someone's dinner!" "and what is more they may be more out there and dying pigeons and all kinds of mortality its called NATURE just walk away (and resume rational life)! The dippy models of the '60s, tottering home from the night-club prior to sleeping until the late morning shoot, would constantly discover ailing pigeons in the 'areas' of Knightsbridge snob blocks. "Squeak!" they squeaked. "What shall I do?" "Why you must take it home and feed it! Lest I wring its neck or the expensive pharmacological equivalent". They would return all runny mascara and wailing "It shits all over my apartment and keeps waking me up. Waagh"! They would agree to euthanasia faced with the stark reality of city pigeon prospects and exhausted of the rescue fantasy, If they became philosophically haughty with me I would point out the fate of the pigeon thousands in the London Parks and urge them to throw up their careers and patrol!" Last weekend on duty (a particularly frenetic one) was punctured by such requests. Three able bodied men found saw a cat knocked over by a car. They carried it to a phone booth and called the RSPCA. The duty Inspector (30 miles away) rang me would I see it? "Of course!" I boasted "Ring " she went. "They say they cant move it! "Will you go and give a pain killer?" "Of course! Delighted. Tell them must wait with the cat until someone comes and injects it and then returns after the injection works and transports the cat carefully here. About an hour in all. You might, alternatively suggest that they scoop it up and get here immediately instead of pratting about!" She rang back "they are coming in straight away" They did! They took a deep breath and held hands. The cat had a cracked pelvis and a brass tag with its address. It is fine. " But people are getting soft In the Vietnam horror many more soldiers became battle casualties. The medical personnel largely did not. After the Soho bombings of the Admiral Duncan Pub a number of the casualty staff at the nearest Hospital have reported sick with PTSD! This is new! Today a prison warder who guarded Rosemary West the serial murdering person is suing the Crown for "stress and lack of counselling". Are we getting soft? Are we getting dangerously soppy? Or is this the perfecting of the loving, touchy feeling liberalisation of Humanity in which case can we afford it? The women who raised me could dispatch, butcher and divinely cook any creature that they could overpower manually. When we had a farm accident. a boy donated a leg to the hay harvester, a cowman ran head down into a barbed wire fence, a bull gored my stepfather - they ran with towels and whatever was needed and succoured and saved without swooning and squeaking. Then they had lost four children between them and got on with life. They were brilliant women. Their shades stand behind me in judgement my deeds. Writers drivel on about sex roles! In my youth you were man if your womenfolk said you were!" Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 16-MAY-1999 14:09:30.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Grandma's spinning in the grave! Good plug for behaviour therapy Debbie. > Much of that stems from the ignorance of normal >dog and cat behavior, how to influence it and how to change it. And yes, >from time to time from owning the wrong pet or an unacceptable pet. >Debbie Horwitz, DVM, Dip. American College of Veterinary Behaviorists >Veterinary Behavior Consultations >St. Louis, Missouri But what is happening to people? Are they getting soft? My grandmother and her daughter drowned the farm kittens. At birth, into a sack a bucket of water and a brick on top. Now we have a multi million pound industry for rescue and recuperation that attracts people to rescue like moths to the flame. I have been called by a woman in a field ten miles from here who discovered a nest of bald pink rodents. What should she do? Who should she call? Would I care to drive out and attend? How about just covering them over with the earth that has been disturbed? I suggested. "Eek!" she eeked. "What if something eats them?" "Well" I empathised. "In one sense they ARE someone's dinner!" "and what is more they may be more out there and dying pigeons and all kinds of mortality its called NATURE just walk away (and resume rational life)! The dippy models of the '60s, tottering home from the night-club prior to sleeping until the late morning shoot, would constantly discover ailing pigeons in the 'areas' of Knightsbridge snob blocks. "Squeak!" they squeaked. "What shall I do?" "Why you must take it home and feed it! Lest I wring its neck or the expensive pharmacological equivalent". They would return all runny mascara and wailing "It shits all over my apartment and keeps waking me up. Waagh"! They would agree to euthanasia faced with the stark reality of city pigeon prospects and exhausted of the rescue fantasy, If they became philosophically haughty with me I would point out the fate of the pigeon thousands in the London Parks and urge them to throw up their careers and patrol!" Last weekend on duty (a particularly frenetic one) was punctured by such requests. Three able bodied men found saw a cat knocked over by a car. They carried it to a phone booth and called the RSPCA. The duty Inspector (30 miles away) rang me would I see it? "Of course!" I boasted "Ring " she went. "They say they cant move it! "Will you go and give a pain killer?" "Of course! Delighted. Tell them must wait with the cat until someone comes and injects it and then returns after the injection works and transports the cat carefully here. About an hour in all. You might, alternatively suggest that they scoop it up and get here immediately instead of pratting about!" She rang back "they are coming in straight away" They did! They took a deep breath and held hands. The cat had a cracked pelvis and a brass tag with its address. It is fine. " But people are getting soft In the Vietnam horror many more soldiers became battle casualties. The medical personnel largely did not. After the Soho bombings of the Admiral Duncan Pub a number of the casualty staff at the nearest Hospital have reported sick with PTSD! This is new! Today a prison warder who guarded Rosemary West the serial murdering person is suing the Crown for "stress and lack of counselling". Are we getting soft? Are we getting dangerously soppy? Or is this the perfecting of the loving, touchy feeling liberalisation of Humanity in which case can we afford it? The women who raised me could dispatch, butcher and divinely cook any creature that they could overpower manually. When we had a farm accident. a boy donated a leg to the hay harvester, a cowman ran head down into a barbed wire fence, a bull gored my stepfather - they ran with towels and whatever was needed and succoured and saved without swooning and squeaking. Then they had lost four children between them and got on with life. They were brilliant women. Their shades stand behind me in judgement my deeds. Writers drivel on about sex roles! In my youth you were man if your womenfolk said you were!" Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 16-MAY-1999 18:49:55.67 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs On Sun, 16 May 1999, VIVIAN BREGMAN wrote: a>Actually, No. >What would happen is that instead of five dollar or so break on your >license if your dog was altered, it would be fifty one hundred. >So that somebody with three unaltered dogs would pay three hundred thirty >dollars, say, and someone with three altered dogs would pay thirty dollars. But you've gone back to mandatory/regulated sterilization, rather than prohibiting breeding as Elizabeth's post suggested. As I mentioned to her, they are not really the same issue. Prohibit breeding -->get more abandoned and drowned/buried puppies and kittens Charge more for licenses on intact animals -->get more unlicensed animals Ione ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/ETDR.html East Tennessee Doberman Rescue ================================================== Life is what happens when you're planning on something else. From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 16-MAY-1999 19:25:46.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs At 08:48 PM 5/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >On Sun, 16 May 1999, VIVIAN BREGMAN wrote: > >a>Actually, No. >>What would happen is that instead of five dollar or so break on your >>license if your dog was altered, it would be fifty one hundred. >>So that somebody with three unaltered dogs would pay three hundred thirty >>dollars, say, and someone with three altered dogs would pay thirty dollars. > > >But you've gone back to mandatory/regulated sterilization, rather than >prohibiting breeding as Elizabeth's post suggested. As I mentioned to her, >they are not really the same issue. > >Prohibit breeding -->get more abandoned and drowned/buried puppies and >kittens > >Charge more for licenses on intact animals -->get more unlicensed animals > >Ione > How do you prohibit breeding?? You can prohibit registration, but they are not the major problem. Actually, I think that more kittens are destroyed than puppies, but I can't remember where I read it. How do you propose to ban breeding if you don't mandate altering? Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"AShaad@aol.com" 16-MAY-1999 20:33:56.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Grandma's spinning in the grave! Perhaps we as a people are not getting soft, but just simply too removed from nature. We can sit a lab to study or out in a field to observe, but how much contact do we as humans, as a whole, REALLY have with nature? Agriculture orientated cultures still have contact with nature and life, as the rest of us move on to a more industrial / electronic exsistance, we lose that contact. Therefore when nature happens to touch us or impose upon our daily life, it becomes significant and note worthy, We want to feel conected, and to further that end, we try to continue it. We as a species value the continuation of life, for the sanctity of it, even though it appears we waste it. For some reason we cannot bring ourselves to end our lives, so more often than not we try everything not to end it in the lives of others. From the people I have known, those who live outside the cosmopolitan lifestyle - rural areas, hunters, and field biologists by and large, continue to have that conection to the true meaning of life and when it no longer needs to extended. As much as some may call them unfeeling and inhuman for their ability to end life quickly and move on, perhaps it is our downfall and not theirs. Amanda Shaad From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 16-MAY-1999 21:39:41.99 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs On Sun, 16 May 1999, VIVIAN BREGMAN wrote: >How do you propose to ban breeding if you don't mandate altering? Vivian, I DON'T propose to ban breeding. That was an idea that ELIZABETH mentioned. I was simply pointing out one of the undesirable consequences of such a ban. It certainly could be done, however, if you were willing to be fascistic enough. Just as mandated sterilization would require more of a fascistic mindset than most people are willing to tolerate. Ione ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/ETDR.html East Tennessee Doberman Rescue ================================================== Life is what happens when you're planning on something else. From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 16-MAY-1999 23:28:16.17 To: IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu" "Kale H. McE. Kevan" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: neuter/pedigree selection Kale H. McE. Kevan wrote: > You never hear of a healthy hawk being euthanized, because there is always > someplace for it to go. Dogs and cats aren't so lucky. I just had to jump in on this one (glad to know I'm not the only raptor-head on the list BTW!)Now, just because falconers are heavily regulated by the feds - this does not mean all their raptors end up with happy stories. Unfortunately, humans will be humans and 'mistakes' aplenty happen in this sport - even with all the hoops to be jumped thru to aquire a falconer's license and permit for a bird. I work at a wildlife center where we see up close and personal the results of some of the 'bad apple' falconers out there - hawks do show up often enough who are suffering the ill-effects of bad handling and management skills - and those are the ones that are discovered and/or confiscated. One of our non-releasables (Harlan's Hawk) was physically abused by its 'owner' - (imagine trying to intimate a raptor into submission - duh). This is not to knock the sport - I greatly admire my falconer friends and their dedication to the animals. They have to work hard to uphold the reputation of falconry because of the dunderheads who make it look bad (falconry traditionally has had a bad reputation with wildlife rehabbers, but this may be beginning to change) But I hesitate to put any method of animal management on a pedestal because - like I said - To error is human and until we have a stronger sense of stewardship in our society we are going to continue to have examples of animals suffering due to our follies. (Best of luck getting your sponsor and license, by the way. A wonderful world indeed.) Donna Reynolds From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 16-MAY-1999 23:43:04.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Education - Was 'No Subject' This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_t4VckSE+b7U9nwU7tw3xjA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > > Most of the problems I see are not due to malevolence they are due to ignorance, and this can be solved. > > > > > > Why not include 'animal care' in the kid's classes and have optional 'pet ownership classes' for prospective pet owners. > > > > > > JB > A very successful program in my corner of the world is called a "Pet Library". > > Kids (or teachers) can 'check out' a rat, guinea pig, hamster or rabbit for one week. > They are instructed by teen volunteers on how to clean, feed, hold and care for the animal. (They go home with the cage, food, bedding, everything) > After that week, many children decide they want nothing more to do with the huge responsibility (much to the relief of many a parent!) . Others decide they are "in love" and beg to > adopt the animal (often, they are allowed - these animals are all surroundered to begin with). > Little stewards in the making. > > Just a thought in case anyone's fishing. > Donna Reynolds --Boundary_(ID_t4VckSE+b7U9nwU7tw3xjA) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 22:31:40 -0700 From: Donna Reynolds Subject: Re: -- No Subject -- To: Elizabeth Chandler Message-id: <373FA9BA.837B503A@sirius.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: Elizabeth Chandler wrote: > Jon: > > Animal care or animal welfare in school --- great idea. I've often > thought that would be a great avenue for education and, though I > haven't gotten around to it yet, it is something I want to pursue > in my community. > > > Most of the problems I see are not due to malevolence they are due to ignorance, and this can be solved. > > > > Why not include 'animal care' in the kid's classes and have optional 'pet ownership classes' for prospective pet owners. > > > > JB A very successful program in my corner of the world is called a "Pet Library". Kids (or teachers) can 'check out' a rat, guinea pig, hamster or rabbit for one week. They are instructed by teen volunteers on how to clean, feed, hold and care for the animal. (They go home with the cage, food, bedding, everything) After that week, many children decide they want nothing more to do with the huge responsibility (much to the relief of many a parent!) . Others decide they are "in love" and beg to adopt the animal (often, they are allowed - these animals are all surroundered to begin with). Little stewards in the making. Just a thought in case anyone's fishing. Donna Reynolds --Boundary_(ID_t4VckSE+b7U9nwU7tw3xjA)-- From: IN%"john.kent@ucd.ie" 17-MAY-1999 03:24:48.86 To: IN%"S.Chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk" "Sarah Chaplin" CC: Subj: RE: Weather prediction and cows The idea that cow behaviour and the weather correlate as outlined in your e-mail is not new. How to establish an empirical connection between weather and behaviour is the problem. Are cows are able to predict the weather and stay lying in constant rain and standing in changeable conditions ? Careful observation and appropriate meteorological data such as air pressure (Mb) and other relevant met data should give clear answers to this question. Appropriate regression analysis techniques could be applied to such data. See Kent, J.P. McElligiott, A.G. and Budgey, H.V. (1997) Behavioural Processes, 39, p271-278 for some inspiration from work with fowl. > Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:17:41 +0000 > From: Sarah Chaplin > Subject: Weather prediction and cows > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Organization: Scottish Agricultural College > Priority: normal > > I've just had a very interesting conversation with a reporter from the > Kirkintilloch Herald who tells me that, for a bit of fun, Clyde FM have > been using cows to forecast the weather. > > They fly over the same herd of cows at 7-8 a.m. and, this being Scotland, > if it is raining and the cows are lying down, it will rain all day. If > however, it is raining and the cows are standing, the weather will clear > up. Fine weather is not an option! Apparently they have had better than > average results and were wondering if there is scientific basis to their > observations. > > I realised that although I've watched loads of cows, it has mostly been > indoors or sunny (!). I guess I'm just a fair weather cow-watcher . . . > > Anyway, has anyone got any experience/views on cows as > weather-forecasters? > > Sarah > > Sarah Chaplin > Dairy Health Unit > SAC Veterinary Science Division > Auchincruive > AYR KA6 5AE > Tel.01292 520318 > Fax.01292 521069 > Email.s.chaplin@ed.sac.ac.uk > > J.P. Kent, Ballyrichard Hs., Arklow, Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Ph +353-(0)402-32384 Fax +353-(0)402-31810 From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 17-MAY-1999 05:52:53.22 To: IN%"AShaad@aol.com" "INTERNET:AShaad@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"duc@egroups.com" "INTERNET:duc@egroups.com", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve" Subj: RE: Grandma's spinning in the grave! Message text written by INTERNET:AShaad@aol.com >From the people I have known, those who live outside the cosmopolitan = lifestyle - rural areas, hunters, and field biologists by and large, continue = to have that conection to the true meaning of life and when it no longer = needs to extended. As much as some may call them unfeeling and inhuman f= or their ability to end life quickly and move on, perhaps it is our downfall= and = not theirs. = Amanda Shaad < So true, Amanda. I thoroughly enjoy my 3.5 acres that took its present form whenever the last earthquake pushed up the Appalachans and my farmhouse that was pushe= d up by hominids in 1740. This is a time for trimming branches, rediscovering flowers, and making new friends with sprouting maples and oaks, a rabbit or twelve and pairs of returning birds. There's a lot of life in cities but it's not rich enough for my own genet= ic preferences. I'm literally an "outlier" and overlap Loren Eiseley more than Tom Clancy. Incidentally, males are still defined by female responses despite Walker'= s lament. (More to come) Thanks for your response! Jim Brody From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 17-MAY-1999 06:16:39.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs At 11:38 PM 5/16/99 -0400, Ione Smith wrote: >On Sun, 16 May 1999, VIVIAN BREGMAN wrote: > >>How do you propose to ban breeding if you don't mandate altering? > >Vivian, I DON'T propose to ban breeding. That was an idea that ELIZABETH >mentioned. I was simply pointing out one of the undesirable consequences >of such a ban. > >It certainly could be done, however, if you were willing to be fascistic >enough. Just as mandated sterilization would require more of a fascistic >mindset than most people are willing to tolerate. > >Ione I meant, how could such a ban be enforced. We can't get people to accept registering their firearms, I'm sure that somewhere in the constitution it talks about the right to have puppies. Probably " The peoples right to have dogs and cats shall not be....." and so on. I think that this is approaching the problem from the wrong end. BTW, I am against so many companion animals being killed, mostly for behavioral problems. What we need to do is to educate people that dogs/cats are not disposable dogs/cats need to be trained dogs/cats need time from the owner dogs/cats should not be given as surprise presents Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 17-MAY-1999 06:36:35.34 To: IN%"arkabc@arkanimals.com" "Ark Animals" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Back to behavior...a question I have been through two pregnancies while surrounded by animals, including my own and my clients. I did not notice any behavior changes unique to my pregnancy status. Sharon Crowell-Davis > I never got any assistance from the list regarding a couple of literature > citation requests. Here is my request again. > > A colleague of mine, whose ability I trust and respect, has anecdotal > information based on her personal experience in shifting of behavior of > domestic canines and felines toward pregnant human females. She also > experienced the shift personally with her animal clients when she became > pregnant. > > I have never witnessed any of the wives tales related to menstration, etc. > However, I have not ever been around pregnant females working animals. Has > anyone experienced this? Do you have any references you can send me? > > Thyroid or adrenal dysfunction, epilepsy and related resources related to > aggressive and behavioral abnormalities would also be appreciated. > Diana Guerrero > > Diana Guerrero > AATT Ark Animals > PO Box 1154 > Escondido, CA 92033 > arkabc@arkanimals.com > > Appointments at 800.818.7387 > 24 Hour Information 760.599.3697 > "We Take Over Where Noah Left Off!" > > ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 17-MAY-1999 07:27:58.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: your mail There are links to the RSPCA's project to incorporate animal welfare issues in the National Curriculum at http://www.rspca.org.uk/content/education.html On Sat, 15 May 1999, Jon Bowen wrote: > > Why not include 'animal care' in the kid's classes and have optional 'pet ownership classes' for prospective pet owners. > ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 17-MAY-1999 08:45:09.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cat physiology? Hello again John! No, you asked the question correctly and we answered correctly - we just didn't give you the means to apply it. Robin's answer gave the most detail and the best indication of why cats can react so quickly. VERY basically (I do hope this is not an insult to you): the response of tissue (muscle, bone, skin) to stimuli occurs when the nervous system relays "messages" (after reception of the stimuli by the nervous system) by chemical action in the synapses of the nervous system. The speed of reception of stimuli and response is dependent on many factors that include species, health and physical condition. Cats are thought to be unique because of their nervous systems and the efficiency with which they function. An analogy would be the performance of a 4 cylinder automatic car (humans who are not athletes, let's say) compared to one of the Petty families vehicles used for racing (feline physiology). Picture the two leaving an intersection when the light turns green and you have the idea. A human athlete can improve their performance but they probably could not attain a feline performance level because of speciated limitations. The reverse: there is always a "lag time" in response to environmental stimuli by my obese (lovable) female cat (elderly). Her lack of body condition limits her speciated abilities. I don't know what your background is but I would suggest reading some basic neurological functioning then accessing research specific to feline neurology. There is a lot of info from the psychology discipline in the 60's and 70's. DebMcW > Date sent: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:10:47 -0400 > From: John Kincaid > To: Deborah McWilliams > Copies to: "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" > Subject: Re: Cat physiology? > Hi Deb, Diana, Robin et al; > Thank you for your replies > I don't know that is why I asked the question! Anyway the question might have been posed > incorrectly. It is not about the cats laying about at rest and then getting up to hunt. It > was meant to be: When a cat engages it what I describe as a crouch and freeze stance(which > they can stay in for extended periods) prior to the chase how is their body able to go from > crouch and freeze to an explosive run in a nanosecond? If I did that, crouch, freeze and try > to run, my body would not respond as quickly if at all. > > Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > > Hi John!!! > > It is all neurology!!!! > > > > DebMcW > > > > > Date sent: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:22:22 -0400 > > > From: John Kincaid > > > To: "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" , > > > Deborah McWilliams > > > Subject: Cat physiology? > > > > > Hello Deborah and All > > > I Know this isn't the lists topic now but I wonder how it is that a cat > > > domestic or wild can stay stationery for extended periods of time and > > > then spring into action in a nano second. > > > > > > Just curious > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > > > Deborah A. McWilliams > > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > > University of Guelph > > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 17-MAY-1999 09:19:49.57 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs On Mon, 17 May 1999, VIVIAN BREGMAN wrote: >I meant, how could such a ban be enforced. It would take lots of effort. For instance: track down everyone who advertises puppies and kittens for sale or giveaway. Which means people wouldn't advertise. Which means they would kill or abandon the puppies and kittens. Or make the vet examine every pet in the clinic for signs of pregnancy or previous whelping. Which means fewer animals would be seen by vets. >I think that this is approaching the problem from the wrong end. I agree. We need education, AND we need to make spaying/neutering services easier to obtain in more areas. And it would also help if we made pets themselves harder to obtain--anything that's hard to get is more valued. Ione ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/ETDR.html East Tennessee Doberman Rescue ================================================== Life is what happens when you're planning on something else. From: IN%"arioncr@mindspring.com" "Chris Redenbach" 17-MAY-1999 10:54:50.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" Subj: RE: Chaining of Dogs - Education >>I think that this is approaching the problem from the wrong end. > >I agree. We need education, AND we need to make spaying/neutering services >easier to obtain in more areas. And it would also help if we made pets >themselves harder to obtain--anything that's hard to get is more valued. > >Ione > As both a long time (25 years) trainer and almost as long as a breeder of talented and healthy dogs(21 years), I agree that education is the key. Currently, there is the general impression in the community that dogs cannot be trained until they are 4 months or 6 months old. To the contrary, rapid learning takes place far earlier and they are quite amenable to obedience commands and routines taught with food and gentleness at very young ages. However, many puppy issues that make or break the bond with new owners cannot be controlled directly by training, but must be managed until the pup is mature enough to accept more responsibility for self control...issues like housetraining and chewing. Puppy biting, complete unruliness, destructive chewing and housesoiling lead to owners giving up the pet. This is an owner education problem. It is unfortunate that most owners only learn what they needed to know after the damage to the enthusiasm of ownership has long since dissipated. With early education they could have been channeling the pup's behavior into acceptable activities and teaching positive routines for cooperation instead of engaging in the stress causing, bond breaking, generally maddening ill-conceived things they do with pups. In my business, whenever possible, I encourage people to start training as soon as the pup comes home. Good training at this time creates a lasting bond of trust and cooperation. Little 8 week old pups leave their very first obedience session happily doing sit, down, stay, heel and come for food treats. I find that teaching it all at once avoids getting them stuck in a mental rut that there is only one way to earn that food. They become highly trainable...ready to do the next interesting thing that will earn them treats or a toy. Some issues are solely management issues at this stage and owners must be coached to understand good management practices to fill the gaps in situations like housesoiling, chewing, etc. They must also be reassured that the pup is simply not yet cognitively or physically able to attain the self control the owner longs for. When owners are succeeding, they feel pride and joy in ownership. When they are failing, they want to put the failure out of their lives. Shelters need well prepared counselors and trainers to aid in mandatory training and counseling for all adoptees. Funds for this could come from national campaigns to contribute a little extra when buying dog food or toys...the industry could have a PR bonanza with puppy poster kids and all the feel good stuff the average pet owner enjoys. Currently many of these companies provide literature for new dog owners, but we all know that almost no-one can learn to do hands-on skills with a rowdy pup or a terrified rescue dog just from a pamphlet or book...it takes coaching and support. Local licensing policies could include discounts for dogs with Canine Good Citizen certificates (or its equivalent in other countries)...and accompanying PR so that many more people would want to get this certification. I do a very strong sell about the benefits of the CGC to my obedience students. I notice that they get most enthused when I tell them that such a certificate could come in handy if a neighbor ever sues them or complains to the condominium board that their dog is out of control and a menace. Another function of a good training program is education in the importance of good nutrition and veterinary care. Community dog parks are a good idea if they are well managed. They can be locations for local trainers and shelter people to hold events and classes as well. I know...money, where's the money going to come from? It can be done, or gotten started, if the big corporations with the advertising power can join with local government, kennel clubs, training and veterinary groups. In short...sorry...this has been long...much more positive PR and opportunity for achievement has to be given to the general public. Those who train their dogs show more enthusiasm about pet ownership than those who don't. Those who lack the commitment to train need a peer group positive push. > Chris From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 17-MAY-1999 12:15:39.92 To: IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com" CC: Subj: Cape Cod: Darwinian Feelings and Values Colleague, I apologize for the length of this notice and for my passion about the topic. Plan to join us on Cape Cod! Please tell a friend! Thanks, Jim Brody ---------------------------- John Price MD, Russell Gardner MD, John Fentress PhD, Robin Walker, B. Ve= t. Med, MRCVS, James Brody PhD Clinical Sociobiology: Darwinian Feelings and Values (with some ideas borrowed from Charles Darwin, Russell Barkley, Robert Plomin, and Stuart Kauffman) Cape Cod Institute, Albert Einstein College of Medicine. Held in Eastham, MA, just north of the elbow on Cape Cod, at the shore where the next land eastward is the UK and where you will share the miles= of beach at dawn with gulls --- that all claim to know Jonathan --- and a= dozen fishermen. July 19-23, 1999 9 AM -12:15 PM, M-F. = Ed Wilson lately has drawn a small matrix to explain his fascination with= the interplay of biology, environmental policy, social science, and ethic= s. He moves to their common point, the intersection wherein all 4 act on individual decision and experience. = A similar tactic occurs at the Cape in this course: evolutionary theory (which goes back FAR beyond our moving onto the grasslands), complexity theory, neuropsychology, and behavior genetics are symbiotic disciplines,= each one a growth to itself and each one dependent on the others. There = is NO surprise that they supplement and inform one another. There is also llimit to how finely textured our view of human life and our clinical techniques can become once we employ these extra lenses and tools. Day 1: James Brody with Price, Gardner, Fentress, and Walker. Merges complexity theory, natural selection, and behavior genetics into language= and examples that match our "common sense" and that align the foundations= of how we understand and manage psychopathology. The DSM settles nicely into a rational model, the same model that generates understandings of human reasoning, social cooperation, and morality. Optional afternoon discussion over sandwiches and sodas about the morning's topics with Pric= e, Gardner, Fentress, and Robin Walker. Day 2: Russ Gardner and the rest of us. Social behavior as an expression= of our adaptations; evolutionary foundations for a basic science of psychiatry and psychology; story telling and the transmission of values, gossip, and group monitoring. Optional lunch discussion with all of us. Evening Seminar: Suzie Gardner, an identical twin, talks about her relationships with her sister. Suzie and John Fentress lead us through issues of closeness and also the total absence of constraint that we have= even when we see that we have a duplicate version of us. 7-10 PM at the speaker's house. Cheap wine, rare conversation. Day 3: John Price. Survival and reproductive needs and the foundations of= symptoms. Anxiety, mood disorders, personality disorders. Origins, expressions, and interventions. Optional lunch discussion of the morning= 's issues. Evening Seminar: John Price on some of the adventures he's encountered in= evolutionary psychiatry. And on topics from his book (Stevens and Price,= Evolutionary Psychiatry: A New Beginning) which might include the effects= of hazing in English private schools and adult fetishism?!! 7-10 PM at th= e speakers house. No demos. Day 4: John Price. Hierarchy Regulation and Distancing phenomena. Managi= ng alliances and our spot in them. Depression and anxiety as tools that regulate social standing. Agonic and Hedonic hierarchies --- is there an= obviously "better way" or are there conditions favoring either mode? Evening Seminar: John Fentress and Jim Brody on "selectionism" and "instructionism." New understandings about the puree of heredity AND environment. There is a mechanism for free will that evades Spinoza's dreary outlook that we feel free because we're unaware of our puppet strings. He was wrong and probably would have liked this solution! = Speakers House, 7-10 PM, lots of demos. Day 5: James Brody, with Rob Walker and John Fentress. Applications of behavior genetics and evolutionary theory in our offices, some surprising= gifts from complexity theory that match common sense and in ways that should help our clients. Tuning genetic mechanisms and finding places to= be ourselves. Targeting Executive Functions as a therapeutic resource. = Goodies: Nando Pelusi, NACBT, will likely be with us again -- Course manu= al (300 pp.) -- pre-publication copies of Dylan Evans' introduction to evolution (if available) -- Interdisciplinary, lively audience -- Clinica= l Sociobiology T-shirts. Instructors: John Price, M.D. -- President of the World Psychiatric Association's Division on Psychotherapy -- co-author of the pioneering work, "Evolutionary Psychiatry" -- Probably the first to apply Darwinian models= to issues of mania and depression -- Many publications on evolutionary mechanisms and psychopathology -- Med. Res. Council Psychiatric Genetics= Unit, London -- a consultant, NHS where he is still fondly remembered -- (Price, Gardner, and Brody will speak at the nearby Paul MacLean Festschrift to be held July 16-17, 1999.) Russell Gardner, M.D. -- Endowed Professor of Psychiatry at the Universi= ty of Texas, Galveston -- many writings on evolutionary psychiatry and sociophysiology -- writing a book, "Sociophysiology: Evolution, Behavio= r, and Psychiatry" -- advocates "sociophysiology" as the foundation science for psychiatry -- active in the Human Behavior and Evolution Society as well as ASCAP (Across Species Comparisons and Psychopathology) -- founded/edits The ASCAP Newsletter (a monthly publication in 11 volumes).= John Fentress, Ph.D. -- Professor of psychology and neuroscience, Dalhous= ie University -- studied ethology with R.A. Hinde and W.H. Thorpe at Cambrid= ge -- interested in animal communication, neural control and development of movement patterns -- has known many teachers and scientists from Jung, Tinbergen, Lorenz to Goodall and Edelman. Keenly interested in our understandings of genetic expressions and environmental cues for them. James Brody, Ph. D. -- Use of evolutionary theory and examples in private= practice -- -- developed the present course series on "Clinical Sociobiology: Taking Charge of Our Genes" -- posted 300+ essays on Evolutionary Psychology at Behavior OnLine (www.behavior.net/mhn/bolforum/message/27 and = http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary -- has drafted 1 book and will ha= ve a second completed by July. Strong proponent for including sociobiology and a wider range of scientific information and disciplines into our concepts and applications. Robin Walker, B. Vet. Med., MRCVS. Devoted to neurochemical foundations = of motivation, cross species comparisons, and stopping behaviorists from ruining children. Classical scholar and historian. Reading list(s)/Speaker bios/Further information: JBrody@compuserve.com., http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Behavior OnLine has been commended by the A.P.A. Monitor, the Encyclopedi= a Britannica, and by "Home Computing." Prior Courses in this series were: "Clinical Sociobiology: Taking Charge of Our Genes," James Brody, Ph.D. &= John Pearce, M.D., August 1997. "Healing the Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution," James Brody, Ph.D., Robert Wright, Russell Gardner, M.D. and John Pearce, M.D. with a guest contribution from Frank Sulloway, July 1998. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Cost: $455 ($300 for medical residents and graduate students) CE Hours: 15 hours Time: 9 AM-12:15 PM with extended sessions until 1:30 PM on M-Th. Sponsor: Albert Einstein Medical College, Bronx, NY, USA CE credentials: Einstein Medical College (EMC) is accredited by the Accreditation Council for Continuing Medical Education to sponsor continuing medical education for physicians. A maximum of 15 hrs of Category 1 credit for the AMA Physician's Recognition Award; each physici= an should claim only thouse hours of credit that he/she actually spent in th= e educational activity. = AECOM is authorized to offer CE credit to nurses. This program offers 18= contact hrs. Einstein Medical College is approved by Amer. Psychological. Assn. to off= er CE to psychologists. The college maintains program responsibility. This course offers 15 hrs. EMC is recognized by the Nat'l Board for Certified Counselors to offer CE= credit for National Certified Counselors. We adhere to NBCC Guidelines Application has been made: --- To the Massachusetts Assn. for Marriage & Family Therapy, Inc. Continuing Education Program to offer 15 contact hrs. --- For 15 Category I NASW CEUs, Boston College and Simmons College --- To the California Psychological Association to offer 15hours of credi= t in accordance with mandatory (MCEP) requirements. --- To the National Association for Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Counselors for 15 CEH's. ------------------------------- To register, please call, mail or fax! Fax # (718) 430-8782 Phone registration: (718) 430-2307. Or print and complete the form below. --------------------------------- Registration for: CLINICAL SOCIOBIOLOGY: DARWINIAN FEELINGS AND VALUES Name:___________________________Degree_________ Address:_________________________________ City:_____________State & Zip:______________ Fax:_____________Email:___________________ Home phone ( )__________________________ Bus. Phone:( )___________________________ Discipline: ______________________________ Previously Attended Cape Cod Seminar? _______ Special Instructional Needs?_________________ Visa/MC#:________________________________ Signature:________________________________ Exp. date:________________________________ Fax # (718) 430-8782 Check attached: _____________ Please make check payable to Montefiore-Cape Cod . = Mail to Cape Cod Institute * Albert Einstein College of Medicine 1308 Belfer Bldg. * Bronx * NY 10461 Web Page: http://www.cape.org/1999/ We can mail you a complete brochure and more information about our progra= ms at your request. ------------ From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 17-MAY-1999 13:49:12.97 To: IN%"cgaboury@total.net", IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Do animals prune the plants they consume? Chantal Gaboury wrote: > > Hi all! > > Is anyone aware of examples of animals which positively modify their > environment as a result of feeding? I mean positively with respect to > themselves and future feeding. > > For example, do horses or giraffs "prune" the shrubs and trees they > graze on, thus increasing the biomass for future grazing? Do cattle > "prune" the grass they graze (Is grass "prunable") > > Thank-you, > Chantal :-) - - - - - - -Chantal, My guess, and this is a guess, would be that the grazers/brousers have lived together through evoulution long enough that they have come to appear to be symbiotic. - - - - - - - This would probably not apply to domestic cattle, at least those in the western US. To a "non-rangeland biologist" who has seen public-used and public-abused land in the west, it appears obvious that there is no evolutionary balance for such non-native critters whose genetic composition has been drastically altered by man. Wonder what "native" cows looked like??? paul From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 17-MAY-1999 16:25:40.51 To: IN%"AShaad@aol.com" "'AShaad@aol.com'" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Grandma's spinning in the grave! Interestingly, Amanda, the townies of the 1940s were already so far removed from nature as to believe milk originated in bottles. I remember as a seven year old being told by another boy that barley sugar was growing in a field just beyond the "camp". Three of us trekked down under the railway line and into a field of barley. I remember dismantling a ripe ear of barley and tasting the seeds. Something of a disappointment. Given the current propaganda about the bombing of Yugoslavia which seems to co-opt the mythology of the London blitz, a note about this camp may be of interest. The year was 1944. The camp was at Blunham in Bedfordshire. That year one and a half million people had fled from London in the face of the V1 rocket bombs. The authorities pursued them with tents and kitchens. My mother was the assistant warden of the camp. The fiction was that the townsfolk were enjoying work on the land holidays. They did indeed work but they were in flight from the terror of unheralded death from the skies. People will not always bravely unite under such attack. They will run like hell. Robin -----Original Message----- From: AShaad@aol.com [SMTP:AShaad@aol.com] Sent: 17 May 1999 03:32 To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: Grandma's spinning in the grave! Perhaps we as a people are not getting soft, but just simply too removed from nature. We can sit a lab to study or out in a field to observe, but how much contact do we as humans, as a whole, REALLY have with nature? Agriculture orientated cultures still have contact with nature and life, as the rest of us move on to a more industrial / electronic exsistance, we lose that contact. Therefore when nature happens to touch us or impose upon our daily life, it becomes significant and note worthy, We want to feel conected, and to further that end, we try to continue it. We as a species value the continuation of life, for the sanctity of it, even though it appears we waste it. For some reason we cannot bring ourselves to end our lives, so more often than not we try everything not to end it in the lives of others. From the people I have known, those who live outside the cosmopolitan lifestyle - rural areas, hunters, and field biologists by and large, continue to have that conection to the true meaning of life and when it no longer needs to extended. As much as some may call them unfeeling and inhuman for their ability to end life quickly and move on, perhaps it is our downfall and not theirs. Amanda Shaad From: IN%"jkincaid@kawartha.com" "John Kincaid" 17-MAY-1999 18:07:51.85 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" Subj: RE: Cat physiology? Dear Deb McW, Robin, Vivian et al I am addressing this to you three in particular because it was you three that responded. Deborah put me on to neurology, Robin contributed endorphins and opioids, and Vivian contributed the fact that border collies do it as well. The it being an ability to crouch and creep for long periods prior to a great rush. This then is what I have come up with. The cat and dog(or possibly all four legged carnivores) must have the capability of storing and releasing energy in their hind quarters. My thinking is that the energy at the moment of crouch must be held in the muscles by means of neural switch(s). These switch(s) must be under the control of both the conscious and autonomous nervous system. Your comments on my hypotheses would be welcome. If correct have there been any papers published on this. If my hypotheses is incorrect can anyone advise me further. Thank you and take care John Dear Deb McW, Robin, Vivian et al I am addressing this to you three in particular because it was you three that responded. Deborah put me on to neurology, Robin contributed endorphins and opioids, and Vivian contributed the fact that border collies do it as well. The it being an ability to crouch and creep for long periods prior to a great rush. This then is what I have come up with. The cat and dog(or possibly all four legged carnivores) must have the capability of storing and releasing energy in their hind quarters. My thinking is that the energy at the moment of crouch must be held in the muscles by means of neural switch(s). These switch(s) must be under the control of both the conscious and autonomous nervous system. Your comments on my hypotheses would be welcome. If correct have there been any papers published on this. If my hypotheses is incorrect can anyone advise me further. Thank you and take care John PS I got your excellent note after I had wriiten the above. In my opinion it says the same thing and no you didnt insult me No harm meant no harm done. My vocation has been(I'm retired) psychiatric RPN. My avocation has been a keen interest in and observation of animals particularly cats and dogs all my life I look forward to hearing from you again soon. JGK Deborah McWilliams wrote: > Hello again John! > No, you asked the question correctly and we answered correctly - > we just didn't give you the means to apply it. Robin's answer gave > the most detail and the best indication of why cats can react so > quickly. VERY basically (I do hope this is not an insult to you): the > response of tissue (muscle, bone, skin) to stimuli occurs when the > nervous system relays "messages" (after reception of the stimuli by > the nervous system) by chemical action in the synapses of the nervous > system. The speed of reception of stimuli and response is dependent > on many factors that include species, health and physical condition. > Cats are thought to be unique because of their nervous systems > and the efficiency with which they function. An analogy would be the > performance of a 4 cylinder automatic car (humans who are not > athletes, let's say) compared to one of the Petty families vehicles > used for racing (feline physiology). Picture the two leaving an > intersection when the light turns green and you have the idea. > A human athlete can improve their performance but they probably could > not attain a feline performance level because of speciated > limitations. The reverse: there is always a "lag time" in response > to environmental stimuli by my obese (lovable) female cat (elderly). > Her lack of body condition limits her speciated abilities. > I don't know what your background is but I would suggest > reading some basic neurological functioning then accessing research > specific to feline neurology. There is a lot of info from the > psychology discipline in the 60's and 70's. > DebMcW > > > Date sent: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:10:47 -0400 > > From: John Kincaid > > To: Deborah McWilliams > > Copies to: "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" > > Subject: Re: Cat physiology? > > > Hi Deb, Diana, Robin et al; > > Thank you for your replies > > I don't know that is why I asked the question! Anyway the question might have been posed > > incorrectly. It is not about the cats laying about at rest and then getting up to hunt. It > > was meant to be: When a cat engages it what I describe as a crouch and freeze stance(which > > they can stay in for extended periods) prior to the chase how is their body able to go from > > crouch and freeze to an explosive run in a nanosecond? If I did that, crouch, freeze and try > > to run, my body would not respond as quickly if at all. > > > > Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > > > > Hi John!!! > > > It is all neurology!!!! > > > > > > DebMcW > > > > > > > Date sent: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:22:22 -0400 > > > > From: John Kincaid > > > > To: "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" , > > > > Deborah McWilliams > > > > Subject: Cat physiology? > > > > > > > Hello Deborah and All > > > > I Know this isn't the lists topic now but I wonder how it is that a cat > > > > domestic or wild can stay stationery for extended periods of time and > > > > then spring into action in a nano second. > > > > > > > > Just curious > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > > > > > Deborah A. McWilliams > > > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > > > University of Guelph > > > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"LilleBird@aol.com" 17-MAY-1999 22:03:48.05 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: cat physiology << A human athlete can improve their performance but they probably could not attain a feline performance level because of speciated limitations. The reverse: there is always a "lag time" in response to environmental stimuli by my obese (lovable) female cat (elderly). Her lack of body condition limits her speciated abilities. I don't know what your background is but I would suggest reading some basic neurological functioning then accessing research specific to feline neurology. >> I am hardly and expert or even very knowledgeable in neruological functioning but I did witness a reaction of two vizlas to a lasar pointer that would suggest a feline reaction. It was so remarkable to me because even though my two retrievers do respond quickly to live prey(squirrels,racoons and rabbits) they nowhere have the quickness of a vizla. This would seem to say a variable physiological makeup in dogs(mais bien sur) elaine buchsbaum lillebird@aol.com From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 18-MAY-1999 07:45:35.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cat physiology? Hi John! > > Deborah put me on to neurology, Robin contributed endorphins and opioids, and Vivian contributed > the fact that border collies do it as well. The it being an ability to crouch and creep for long > periods prior to a great rush. Eeeeek! John, neurology and endorphins and opiods are not separate entities. You need some basic info on neurological functioning. > This then is what I have come up with. The cat and dog(or possibly all four legged carnivores) > must have the capability of storing and releasing energy in their hind quarters. My thinking is > that the energy at the moment of crouch must be held in the muscles by means of neural switch(s). > These switch(s) must be under the control of both the conscious and autonomous nervous system. Once you do the basic neurology thing, you will know that it is speed in transmission. "Storage issues" appear only in terms of depleting energy resources (check re: anabolism) or accumulating by- products of catabolism which will (ultimately) affect ability to react and perform. What applications (or use of the info/hypotheses) are you looking at? DebMcW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Deb McW, Robin, Vivian et al > > I am addressing this to you three in particular because it was you three that responded. > > Deborah put me on to neurology, Robin contributed endorphins and opioids, and Vivian contributed > the fact that border collies do it as well. The it being an ability to crouch and creep for long > periods prior to a great rush. > > This then is what I have come up with. The cat and dog(or possibly all four legged carnivores) > must have the capability of storing and releasing energy in their hind quarters. My thinking is > that the energy at the moment of crouch must be held in the muscles by means of neural switch(s). > These switch(s) must be under the control of both the conscious and autonomous nervous system. > > Your comments on my hypotheses would be welcome. > > If correct have there been any papers published on this. If my hypotheses is incorrect can anyone > advise me further. > > Thank you and take care > > John > > PS I got your excellent note after I had wriiten the above. In my opinion it says the same thing > and no you didnt insult me > > No harm meant no harm done. > > My vocation has been(I'm retired) psychiatric RPN. My avocation has been a keen interest in and > observation of animals particularly cats and dogs all my life > > I look forward to hearing from you again soon. > > JGK > > Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > > Hello again John! > > No, you asked the question correctly and we answered correctly - > > we just didn't give you the means to apply it. Robin's answer gave > > the most detail and the best indication of why cats can react so > > quickly. VERY basically (I do hope this is not an insult to you): the > > response of tissue (muscle, bone, skin) to stimuli occurs when the > > nervous system relays "messages" (after reception of the stimuli by > > the nervous system) by chemical action in the synapses of the nervous > > system. The speed of reception of stimuli and response is dependent > > on many factors that include species, health and physical condition. > > Cats are thought to be unique because of their nervous systems > > and the efficiency with which they function. An analogy would be the > > performance of a 4 cylinder automatic car (humans who are not > > athletes, let's say) compared to one of the Petty families vehicles > > used for racing (feline physiology). Picture the two leaving an > > intersection when the light turns green and you have the idea. > > A human athlete can improve their performance but they probably could > > not attain a feline performance level because of speciated > > limitations. The reverse: there is always a "lag time" in response > > to environmental stimuli by my obese (lovable) female cat (elderly). > > Her lack of body condition limits her speciated abilities. > > I don't know what your background is but I would suggest > > reading some basic neurological functioning then accessing research > > specific to feline neurology. There is a lot of info from the > > psychology discipline in the 60's and 70's. > > DebMcW > > > > > Date sent: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:10:47 -0400 > > > From: John Kincaid > > > To: Deborah McWilliams > > > Copies to: "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" > > > Subject: Re: Cat physiology? > > > > > Hi Deb, Diana, Robin et al; > > > Thank you for your replies > > > I don't know that is why I asked the question! Anyway the question might have been posed > > > incorrectly. It is not about the cats laying about at rest and then getting up to hunt. It > > > was meant to be: When a cat engages it what I describe as a crouch and freeze stance(which > > > they can stay in for extended periods) prior to the chase how is their body able to go from > > > crouch and freeze to an explosive run in a nanosecond? If I did that, crouch, freeze and try > > > to run, my body would not respond as quickly if at all. > > > > > > Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > > > > > > Hi John!!! > > > > It is all neurology!!!! > > > > > > > > DebMcW > > > > > > > > > Date sent: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:22:22 -0400 > > > > > From: John Kincaid > > > > > To: "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" , > > > > > Deborah McWilliams > > > > > Subject: Cat physiology? > > > > > > > > > Hello Deborah and All > > > > > I Know this isn't the lists topic now but I wonder how it is that a cat > > > > > domestic or wild can stay stationery for extended periods of time and > > > > > then spring into action in a nano second. > > > > > > > > > > Just curious > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > > > > > > > Deborah A. McWilliams > > > > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > > > > University of Guelph > > > > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > > > > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > > > Deborah A. McWilliams > > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > > University of Guelph > > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 18-MAY-1999 15:26:45.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_6EzhZw+/ucnRj7f3OSHs6Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Some really useful infor has turned up recently about RSPAC trying to = get animal care on national curriculum, the pet-library scheme in US and = the AVA's petpep scheme. Does anyone else know about any similar open schemes concerned with = public information/education relating to animal care/welfare. I am keen to find out about as many of these schemes as possible, = regardless of how big or small. I would like to make a list of contacts; if you have any info about = schemes that you think might be of interest please send them to me. Thanks, Jon --Boundary_(ID_6EzhZw+/ucnRj7f3OSHs6Q) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Some really useful infor has turned up recently = about RSPAC=20 trying to get animal care on national curriculum, the pet-library scheme = in US=20 and the AVA's petpep scheme.
 
Does anyone else know about any similar open schemes = concerned=20 with public information/education relating to animal = care/welfare.
I am keen to find out about as many of these schemes = as=20 possible, regardless of how big or small.
 
I would like to make a list of contacts; if you have = any info=20 about schemes that you think might be of interest please send them to=20 me.
 
Thanks,
 
Jon
--Boundary_(ID_6EzhZw+/ucnRj7f3OSHs6Q)-- From: IN%"fmartin@vetmed.wsu.edu" "Francois Martin" 18-MAY-1999 17:54:16.61 To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "'Jon Bowen'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Dear John, I thought you would be interested in learning more about the curriculum developed by my organization. The curriculum was written under the supervision of the Dean Emeritus of the College of Veterinary Medicine, and Director of People Pet Partnership at WSU, late Dr. Leo K. Bustad. Learning and Living Together: Building the Human-Animal Bond is an internationally known handbook for pet education partnerships. Developed in 1986, the goal was to develop a guide for schools that would enable volunteers to teach children responsibility toward animals and people. A further goal was to present the concept of the interdependency of all life forms and the obligation of each individual to protect and sustain this, sometimes fragile, web of life. It was revised in 1988,1991 and 1996. The fourth edition reflects changing attitudes toward people with disabilities and toward their assistance/service animals. The curriculum encourages students to communicate effectively about companion animals and the web of life; to use mathematical skills to compute the numbers of animals that can result from one unneutered companion animal pair; and to read further and write about responsible pet ownership and stewardship of the environment. The curriculum teaches core concepts of life and social sciences. This curriculum guide has been translated into Japanese and is currently being translated into French. We are working on a revision of our human-animal bond curriculum geared towards the comprehension level of people with developmental disabilities, such as Down's Syndrome and other populations with special needs. We will also include lessons for the middle school population. The increasing violence and seeming lack of concern for others indicates to us that there is a need for educators to "go back to basics", and to teach students about empathy and reverence for all forms of life. Interactive and experiential lessons will model appropriate care, concern and behavior toward companion animals. The curriculum will include all aspects of animal care; halting the cycle of violence towards animals, children, women and older adults; issues concerning companion animal overpopulation, abandonment and euthanasia; dealing with the grief associated with the loss of a companion animal; and how to activate the community toward responsibility for animal-welfare. If you wish, you could find more information about People-Pet Partnership and the curriculum at our wed site at: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-pppp/ Francois Martin, Ph.D. Associate Director of the Center for the Study of Animal Well Being and Head of People-Pet Partnership Program College of Veterinary Medicine Washington State University Pullman, WA 99164-7010 tel 509 335.4569 fax 509 335.6094 From: IN%"drogers@zoo.uvm.edu" 19-MAY-1999 08:37:59.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: IN%"neysha_stuart@juno.com" "neysha stuart", IN%"vzerillo@charity.trinityvt.edu" "vanessa zerillo" Subj: RE: humane education In the Department of Animal Sciences at the University of Vermont we have developed over the last several years a collaborative program -- The Humane Education Project -- that places Animal Sciences undergraduate students as teacher interns in elementary (4th grade) classrooms to teach children about responsible pet care. It is a joint project involving a local school in an urban community with an above average incidence of animal neglect and abuse, the Humane Society of Chittenden County, The Department of Animal Sciences, and a Special Educator at a local college (Trinity College). Teacher interns work in pairs and are assigned to different classrooms which they visit weekly for an entire semester or school year to deliver age- appropriate math, literature, computer, social studies, and science lessons -- all on the theme of responsibility and commitment to pets and their care. One year ago we a developed an integrated curriculum (H.E.L.P. -- Humane Education through Learning about Pets) with such lessons that are based upon the latest standards-based curriculum development and learning assessment models. Accomodations for special needs students and assessment criteria are included for each lesson. Testing, revision and assessment of the HELP curriculum will continue in elementary classrooms this Fall when classes resume. We believe that humane education programs that are integrated into a classroom's regular program over an extended period will be more effective in affecting attitudes and behavior than shorter term and 'one-shot' approaches. In addition, the teacher interns have an opportunity to do meaningful community service that is related to their Animal Sciences major and to develop teaching skills and interests that serve them well. This project has been very well received by all the students, teachers and administrators involved. At the present time we are beginning to think about plans and funding strategies which will enable us to place the Humane Education Project and the HELP curriculum in more districts and classrooms in Vermont. We are interested in developing a model in which local humane societies develop teams of teacher-volunteers in their communities with our original "home team" providing implementation training and curriculum support. Those interested in additional information are welcome to contact us. David Rogers, Lecturer Department of Animal Sciences, University of Vermont Vanessa Zerillo, Director Teacher Education, Trinity College Neysha Stuart, Shelter Manager Humane Society of Chittenden County Burlington, Vermont From: IN%"Dr.Norbert.Brockmann@t-online.de" 19-MAY-1999 12:27:20.17 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Seperation anx. training Dear Rudy, It sounds as if you have a really difficult selection of dog-ownwers. Perhaps some of following routines to occupy dogs on a non-intimate basis might appeal to them (if you have not tried them already). Let the dog work for it's food (use dry food). Don't use a food-bowl anymore. - Throw the pellets on the lawn (spread them out as far as possible). The owner can even hide pellets in the flat and have the dog search for them. - Good independent occupation can be achieved with the activity-ball or buster-cube that have to be played with to get to the food. (if the dog does not destroy them one can use just as well a box or tennisball with holes). While the dog is busy the owner should retreat. - Best toy is the Kong-Toy. This cone-shaped hollow ball can be filled with tit-bits and is very attractive for most dogs. The owner can moisten the dry food in water (may be ad a bit of liver patè), press the mixture into the Kong-Toy, wait for a couple of minutes so the pellets can swell and stick together and hand it to the dog. - Most dogs have to be trained to buisy themselves when left alone. The first few times the dog should be led to its favourite place an encouraged to empty the Kong-Toy. After some days the ownwer can retreat from this place slowly and systematically after he has handed the toy to the dog. If done patiently, after some time he will be able to leave the room (but not jet the house) and close the door while the dog will chew his toy. The dog will learn hopefully to be satisfied and happy independend of the owners presence. A sighn (i.e. a towl hung up at a special spot) to signal "time-out" for the dog will speed up the process. - It should help to direkt the dogs affection to as many other people and animals as possible. May be the the client's social life can be boosted, may be they even find that way a dog-sitter. I hope that you'll find something of the above usefull. Cheerio Norbert p.s. could be that some of your dog-owners need a shrink or a go at "Rovers" tricyclic antidepressive drugs. From: IN%"rayenna_rhys@flad.com" "Rayenna Rhys" 19-MAY-1999 12:48:22.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group" CC: Subj: RE: Dog Barking & Facility Design Dear Group, Many of you requested that I share whatever information we gathered on dog barking and facility design. The first thing I feel I should say is that we move in a much slower universe here at Flad than the bunch of you appear to (the speed at which questions are answered on this email network is mind boggling). I feel, somehow, slow and inept by comparison (hmmmn, let me think about that for a while and get back to you). This email message is also quite long so anyone who is really interested in reading the whole thing would probably benefit from printing it off first. At the moment (as I mentioned) we are involved with master planning (which means trying to make an educated guess as to what types and sizes and locations of facilities our client will need over the next 10-20 years). This also means that no one is actually designing anything right now--just gathering information for later use. I'd be happy to report on what finally gets built, but we're probably looking at a good year's time before anyone starts making those kinds of decisions. In the meantime, I can offer you some bits and pieces. First, there appears to be a consensus that there has been no research on this specific topic. This leaves us having to go at the subject a bit sideways--articles on why dogs bark and on dog housing and socialization from which we might make educated guesses on how to improve dog housing (or at least not incite or encourage excessive barking). Second, Deborah Wells (a member of this network discussion group whom I was referred to and who also contacted me on her own) is currently engaged in research on how housing influences/how one might control barking in kennel/shelter contexts. Her research will be continuing over the next 2 years and it is not clear how free she will be to share information (because of funding for the research and who "owns" the information). Still, one can always hope. (And she was kind enough to send me copies of several of her articles that I did not have.) Third, I was looking for a way to contact Dr. Hubrecht who authored a number of good articles that appeared in my literature search in the hopes of being able to pick his brain. One person forwarded my email to him and he responded (and a number of others sent me his address, phone number, and/or email address). Fourth, I've included a list of articles I gathered, either in my literature search or that some of you forwarded citations for to me (there was a good deal of overlap, which I found reassuring). I asked about attaching a file to this email but our computer people said since this message is going all over the world it would be better not to--we don't know all the formats that might be necessary for each of you to actually open a file. Also please forgive the email formatting problems; I know when I actually hit the send key one never knows the format it will end up in when it is received. The articles follow. Adams, G.J. and K.G. Johnson. "Behavioural Responses to Barking and Other Auditory Stimuli During Night-Time Sleeping and Waking in the Domestic Dog (Canis familiaris)." Applied Animal Behaviour Science 39 (1994) pp 151-162. Adams, G.J. and K.G. Johnson. "Guard Dogs: Sleep, Work and Behavioural Responses to People and Other Stimuli." Applied Animal Behaviour Science 46 (1995) pp 103-115. Campbell, W.E. "Problem Behavior in Dogs. Excessive Barking." Modern Veterinary Practice, 54(11) October 1973, p 73. Coppinger, Raymond and Mark Feinstein. "'Hark! Hark! The Dogs Do Bark...' and Bark and Bark." Smithsonian Magazine, January 1991, pp 119-129. [This particular article and Dr. Coppinger were mentioned by several people in the discussion group. A synposis of my telephone conversation with Dr. Coppinger follows.] Hetts, Suzanne, et al. "Influence of Housing Conditions on Beagle Behaviour." Applied Animal Behaviour Science 34 (1992) pp 137-155. Hubrecht, R.C. "Behaviour of Kennelled Dogs." Applied Animal Behaviour Science 31(3-4) August 1991 p 294 [abstract only] Hubrecht, Robert C., James A. Serpell and Trevor B. Poole. "Correlates of Pen Size and Housing Conditions on the Behaviour of Kennelled Dogs." Applied Animal Behaviour Science 34 (1992) pp 365-383. Hubrecht, R.C. and J.A. Serpell. "Influence of Housing Conditions on the Behaviour and Welfare of Dogs." Applied Animal Behaviour Science 35(3) January 1993 p 293 [abstract only] Hubrecht, Robert, et al. "Noise in Dog Kennels, Effects of Design and Husbandry." Animal Alternative, Welfare and Ethics. LFM van Zutphen and M. Balls, editors. Amsterdam: Elsevier Science, 1997. pp 215-220 Juarbe-Diaz. "Assessment and Treatment of Excessive Barking in the Domestic Dog." Veterinary Clinic of North America Small Animal Practice, 23(3) May 1997, pp 515-533. Knol, B.W. "Behavioural Problems in Dogs: Problems, Diagnoses,Therapeutic Measures, and Results in 133 Patients." Veterinary Quarterly, vol 9, 1987, pp 226-234. Lewin, Jeff D. "Barking Dog Noise in Veterinary Hospitals." Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association. 10(2) March/April 1974, pp 183-86. [only concerned with reducing noise to protect humans, barking and dogs themselves are ignored] Loveridge, G.G. "Environmentally Enriched Dog Housing." Applied Animal Behaviour Science 59 (1998) pp101-113. [This article discusses the Waltham Pet Centre] Peterson, Ernest A. "Noise and Laboratory Animals." Laboratory Animal Science 30(2) 1980, pp 422-439. Sales, G., et al. "Noise in Dog Kennelling: Is Barking a Welfare Problem for Dogs?" Applied Animal Behaviour Science 52(1997) pp 321-329. Senn, C.L. and J.D. Lewin. "Barking Dogs as an Environmental Problem." Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association, 166(11) June 1, 1975, pp 1065-68. Simpson, B.S. "Canine Communication." Veterinary Clinics of North America Small Animal Practice, 27(3) May 1997, pp 445-64. Sonderegger, S.M. and D.C. Turner. "Introducing Dogs Into Kennels: Prediction of Social Tendencies to Facilitate Integration." Animal Welfare, 5 (1996), pp 391-404. Stauffacher, Markus. "Housing Requirements: What Ethology Can Tell Us." Animal Alternatives, Welfare and Ethics, LFM van Zutphen and M. Balls, editors. Amsterdam : Elvesier Science, 1997, pp 179-186. Wells, D. and P.G. Hepper. "The Behaviour of Dogs in a Rescue Shelter." Animal Welfare, 1 (1992), pp 171-186. Wells, Deborah L. and Peter G. Hepper. "The Effect of Environmental Change on the Behaviour and Welfare of Sheltered Dogs." [copy sent by Dr. Wells--citation information didn't xerox] Wells, Deborah L. and Peter G. Hepper. "Male and Female Dogs Respond Differently to Men and Women." Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 61 (1999), pp 341-349. Wells, Deborah L. and Peter G. Hepper. "A Note on the Influence of Visual Conspecific Contact on the Behaviour of Sheltered Dogs." Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 60 (1998), pp 83-88. Fifth, I had an exceedingly enjoyable hour-long conversation with Ray Coppinger (who "demanded" to know who in the group told me to call him--he remembers you fondly, Peggy--and then was quite charming). Dr. Coppinger is a biologist (currently on sabbatical) who works at Hampshire College in Amherst, Massachusetts. I could go on for pages relating everything Dr. Coppinger had to say but I will attempt to be brief and just hit the highlights. He mentioned he'd found a new group (Scientists Concerned with Animal Welfare--SCAW) that he thinks might end up being useful. Appears their goal is to get good research done and have the research and credentials to actually answer my kinds of questions and to improve the lot of animals used in research. He no longer agrees with his conclusion in the article he wrote for the Smithsonian (cited above) which was basically that dogs bark because dogs bark (arrested juvenile development) and there's nothing one can really do about it. He theorizes that excessive barking may be a developmental "problem" which could be addressed at the right stage of a dog's development but probably can't be fixed with adult dogs. This critical point in a dog's development may well also vary with breed. Nobody knows anything, including when that right stage of development is. He thinks dogs bark (in kennels/shelters) because they are stressed and want attention (related to stress). He gave me a thumbnail explanation of the difference between psychologists and biologists (and hence the different kinds of questions they ask) which was actually very helpful to us (and told me we'd asked a question a psychologist would ask but we would get valuable information and a better understanding of the research done by psychologists by reading what biologists have to say about dogs first). He is concerned about the detrimental effects of the noise of excessive barking on the dogs and is looking for research on that issue. He thinks part of the problem with our lack of research/understanding of dogs is that domestic animals get thrown into the animal science departments at universities instead of the zoology departments and that this creates a society of ignorant people (when it comes to understanding domestic animals). He said dogs will endure pain to avoid isolation. A solitary dog in a kennel is living in an impoverished environment. Talked about brain development (neuron connections dependent upon environmental stimulation). Talked about group kennelling (going on in Europe--said he wasn't aware of anything like that going on in the U.S.). Dogs bark less when kennelled in groups. (He's not aware of anything published in English. Said there were some papers published in German regarding this.) Suggested we approach the design of the facility in terms of looking for ways to relieve stress (the dogs' stress, not ours). If I've said something incendiary here, please remember that this is all second hand and probably not Dr. Coppinger's fault. And last (but not least) here's a brief summary of the responses I received from the group, or because of the group (about 20 all together). Dr. Wells was covered earlier so her response is not included here. 1. Dr. Hubrecht stated there is little or no published research on validated methods of reducing barking but his experience leads him to agree that barking can be caused by frustration. He said dogs will bark at each other if they are in pens facing one another and he has stood in the center of circular buildings that were very noisy. He advised ensuring that the dogs are not unnecessarily excited by husbandry events and recommended we visit the Waltham Centre (said the housing there seems to work well). 2. Numerous requests to post replies to my request for information as well as any information we uncover on our own. 3. Referred to various people (Temple Grandin, Deborah Wells, Robert Hubrecht, Suzanne Hetts, Ray Coppinger). Dr. Wells, Dr. Hubrecht, and Dr. Coppinger all shared helpful information. I did not contact Temple Grandin and Dr. Hetts did not return my calls. 4. As mentioned before, a number of literature citations were provided by a number of generous souls. 5. Referred by many people to the Waltham Pet Centre. 6. A Professor Oedberg suggested that the dogs should be in constant contact with human activities whatever the design of the building so there is regular, ongoing traffic or human presence which makes the arrival of a person a nonevent (so barking is not triggered). This idea is supported indirectly in some of the literature and makes good sense I thought (also appears to be followed somewhat by the Waltham Centre although perhaps not consciously). 7. A vet advised us not to use ultrasonic loudspeakers to reduce barking as they are ineffective at best and sometimes dangerous to the dog's hearing. He also remembered reading an article by Michael Kirk-Smith (haven't found it yet) that suggested that the use of a diffuse lavender color had a calming effect on dogs in kennels. 8. Along with an email address for Dr. Hubrecht, an address and contact person for the Waltham Centre, Dr. Rochlitz also offered the advice that we needed to include in our knowledge and thinking about this issue a) the socialization of dogs to people, b) ensuring that dogs are kept at least in pairs (groups would be better), and c) providing dogs with environmental stimulation (things to do!). Housing dogs in groups was also mentioned by Dr. Coppinger, the article on the Waltham Centre, and the article cited previously entitled, "Correlates of Pen Size and Housing Conditions on the Behaviour of Kennelled Dogs." Dr. Rochlitz's area of expertise is the housing of cats. 9. Dr. Patricia McConnell replied that she thought more visual contact might well cause more barking (not supported in the few research articles I found, although visual contact alone did not reduce barking either) and said that she really thought excessive barking was a relatively simple training paradigm--caretaker training. So that's about it for now. I have attempted to make contact (unsuccessfully) with the Waltham Pet Centre, but plan to keep trying (at least a few more times). Thank you very very much for all your help. I was bowled over (happily) by your many generous and helpful responses. Raye Rhys Reference Librarian Flad & Associates Madison, Wisconsin rayenna_rhys@flad.com From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 19-MAY-1999 17:49:56.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Could someone please respond to this request? From: IN%"ls111@columbia.edu" "Larissa Swedell" 18-MAY-1999 20:33:33.19 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: paper from Congress of ISAE Dear Dr. Stookey: I would greatly appreciate it if you could post the following message on the applied ethology e-mail discussion list for me. As applied ethology is not directly related to my field of study, I do not wish to join the list myself, but am looking for an abstract that I was hoping somebody on the list could help me find. Thank you very much! To the Applied Ethology Discussion List: I am looking for an abstract from the 1997 Proceedings of the International Congress of the ISAE, and am having trouble locating it here in New York. This is the abstract I need: Vancatova & Firsov (1997) Introduction of the group of hamadryas baboons from the zoo to the island: individual changes of behaviour. Proc. Int. Congress ISAE 31: 228. If anybody could let me know how I could get a copy of this or put me in touch with the authors, I would appreciate it. Please e-mail me directly at LS111@columbia.edu, as I am not on the applied ethology e-mail discussion list. Thank you very much, Larissa Swedell ____________________________________ Larissa Swedell Department of Anthropology Columbia University 1200 Amsterdam Avenue Mail Code 5523 New York, NY 10027 USA phone: (212) 866-5122 fax: (212) 866-1847 or 854-7347 e-mail: LS111@columbia.edu From: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" 20-MAY-1999 02:36:24.88 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Pregnant women in many cases vomit. What is the explanation of this phenomenon? Does it exist in other mammals too? Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--¬_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) ¬ ¬ ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" "Chris Rutt" 20-MAY-1999 02:49:57.64 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: Visual spectrum in birds?? Not sure that this is strictly ethology, but I feel sure someone here can assist. With the CCTV faciltiy, my Agapornis taranta have been observed feeding chicks from day old for approximately 14 days, in what appears to be total darkness. (Standard nestbox in unlighted room at night) Other observers have confirmed this behaviour with other Agapornid species so I am wondering how they cope with turning the chick onto its back and locating the chicks' beaks etc.!!! Can anyone advise whether birds (specifically parrotlike, more specifically Agapornis) can see further into the red end of the spectrum than humans? It is often reported that many birds, including parrotlike, can perceive a lot further into the ultra-violet end. Any help would be much appreciated. Best wishes Chris (UK) rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/zoo.htm From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 20-MAY-1999 03:59:18.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: FW: Morning sickness -----Original Message----- From: Robin Walker [SMTP:robin@coape.win-uk.net] Sent: 20 May 1999 10:31 To: 'HANS HAUSSMANN' Subject: RE: Morning sickness I am sure the ladies on the List can throw up some ideas. It is something to do with dopamine and its role as PIF or=20 prolactin inhibitor. In early pregnancy prolactin is low and=20 therefore dopamine activity in the relevant parts of the brain is high. Apomorphine raises dopamine and causes vomiting in humans and dogs. Antipsychotics suppress dopamine and prolactin rises and milk production ensues when unwanted. There must be mood effects. I have wondered whether women who vomit a lot (and are ?high dopamine types) are also "happy" in pregnancy, Low dopamine types might not vomit but be frustrated and therefore "grumpy". I have never had enough women or energy to conduct the necessary experiment. A poll of my ladies and Loraine Rice's sisters seemed to fit the hypothesis but N was too small and it was what I wanted to hear! Anyway statistics make me nauseous. Robin. Vomiting with nausea and regurgitation for species typical purposes are clearly different issues. (PUN unintentional) -----Original Message----- From: HANS HAUSSMANN [SMTP:haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de] Sent: 20 May 1999 11:31 To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject:=09 Pregnant women in many cases vomit. What is the explanation of this phenomenon? Does it exist in other mammals too? Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--=AC_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal = Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) =AC =AC ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 = Stuttgart From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 20-MAY-1999 05:11:07.82 To: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" "Chris Rutt" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" Subj: RE: Visual spectrum in birds?? Dear Chris, An interesting question. I don't know of any work which has shown that avian species have vision in the infra red, but then again, most studies on visual sensitivity of birds have not tested for this. IR vision might not actually be necessary for the behaviour you describe. Whilst housing turkeys in light proof rooms on an 8L:16D lighting schedule, we found they ate 0.33 of their food during the light phase and 0.66 during the dark phase, i.e. light had no apparent effect on the tendency to eat. I did not film the birds (because I realised that although turkeys can see UV, we did not know the visual sensitivity of turkeys at the other end of the spectrum, and therefore did not want to put IR lights into the rooms) so I have no idea whether they blundered randomly into the feeders or walked precisely up to the feeders. It is possible they had some mental representation of where the feeders were, much like how we can accurately find the bedroom light-switch in the middle of the night. Perhaps this is what your birds were doing? It would be interesting to find out what burrowing birds do when feeding chicks. It might also be worth noting that some animals hunt by infra-red (e.g. pit vipers I think) so there are examples of this sense having evolved. But, they use special sensory organs, so, looking at spectral sensitivity of the eye to determine IR sensitivity could mean we are looking in the wrong place (all bad puns intended!) Regards Chris Sherwin On Thu, 20 May 1999 09:47:52 +0100 Chris Rutt wrote: > Not sure that this is strictly ethology, but I feel sure someone > here can assist. > > With the CCTV faciltiy, my Agapornis taranta have been observed > feeding chicks from day old for approximately 14 days, in what > appears to be total darkness. (Standard nestbox in unlighted room > at night) > > Other observers have confirmed this behaviour with other > Agapornid species so I am wondering how they cope with turning > the chick onto its back and locating the chicks' beaks etc.!!! > > Can anyone advise whether birds (specifically parrotlike, more > specifically > Agapornis) can see further into the red end of the spectrum than > humans? It is > often reported that many birds, including parrotlike, can > perceive a lot further into the ultra-violet end. > > Any help would be much appreciated. > > Best wishes > > Chris (UK) > rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk > http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk > http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/zoo.htm > > > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 20-MAY-1999 07:14:00.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" Subj: Morning sickness There is a lot of information on this, at least on the proximate, physiological causes, in the human medical literature. I would suggest you look there. It is called "morning sickness" here, since it typically occurs in the morning, although it can occur at other times and even all day. One problem with Robin's hypothesis is the consequences of vomiting on mood. I had constant morning sickness for several weeks during my first pregnancy, and found that there is nothing like reliably and violently throwing up one's breakfast, as well as all attempts at having "snacks" for the next several hours, to put one in a bad mood for the rest of the day. Other women I talked to who had similar experiences reported similar consequences--tiredness, hunger, frustration, etc. During my second pregnancy, I was spared the unpleasantness, and was much happier. "Happy pregnancy" and "morning sickness" strikes me as a profound contradiction. Shaorn Crowell-Davis ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" "Chris Rutt" 20-MAY-1999 08:35:00.43 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" CC: Subj: RE: Visual spectrum in birds?? Thanks for your thoughts Chris. I am still hoping for more responses from the list. My initial reaction to your comments is that the behaviours involved in feeding a group of mobile chicks of different ages/sizes (hatching is sequential, not simultaneous), given that for the first week or more the chick is turned onto its back, is somewhat more difficult than finding of a static food source (or a light switch!) and that some more complex system would probably be involved than simple spatial memory? Perhaps the sense of touch could be involved since the base of the beak is known to have a liberal nerve supply, but even this "appears" to be indadequate to the complexity of the behaviour. Another possibility could be high end audio sound. Owls are well studied an locate prey in this way, but would this be accurate for this very precise behaviour, since psittacines do not have the adaptions possessed by owls for this purpose. I should have added in my initial post that when the camera was first installed in the nest box the hen appeared to react to activation of the camera. I cannot myself detect any audible or visual cues when this happens, but I feel sure my age affects my sensitivity to high end audio - havn't heard the bats for a good few years now! Unfortunately from the investigation point of view the Abyssinan Lovebird hen now appears to have acclimated to this occurrence! If increased IR sensitivity is involved it must be fairly narrow band since birds put into a strange dark environment cannot detect obstacles and "night frights" can often result in birds panicing and flying into "cold" obstacles, with enough force to break their necks. Thanks again to Chris Sherwin for his thoughts - helped me to focus my own a lot better. Best wishes Chris (UK) rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/zoo.htm -----Original Message----- From: Chris Sherwin Date: 20 May 1999 12:09 Subject: Re: Visual spectrum in birds?? > >Dear Chris, > >An interesting question. I don't know of any work which has shown that >avian species have vision in the infra red, but then again, most >studies on visual sensitivity of birds have not tested for this. IR >vision might not actually be necessary for the behaviour you describe. >Whilst housing turkeys in light proof rooms on an 8L:16D lighting >schedule, we found they ate 0.33 of their food during the light phase >and 0.66 during the dark phase, i.e. light had no apparent effect on >the tendency to eat. I did not film the birds (because I realised >that although turkeys can see UV, we did not know the visual >sensitivity of turkeys at the other end of the spectrum, and therefore >did not want to put IR lights into the rooms) so I have no idea whether >they blundered randomly into the feeders or walked precisely up to the >feeders. It is possible they had some mental representation of where >the feeders were, much like how we can accurately find the bedroom >light-switch in the middle of the night. Perhaps this is what your >birds were doing? It would be interesting to find out what burrowing >birds do when feeding chicks. > >It might also be >worth noting that some animals hunt by infra-red (e.g. pit vipers I >think) so there are examples of this sense having evolved. But, they >use special sensory organs, so, looking at spectral sensitivity of the >eye to determine IR sensitivity could mean we are looking in the wrong >place (all bad puns intended!) > >Regards > >Chris Sherwin >---------------------- >Chris Sherwin >Division of Animal Health and Husbandry >University of Bristol >E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk > From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 20-MAY-1999 09:05:05.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Visual spectrum in birds?? Hi Chris! Dr. Tina Widowski has done a lot of work (and published research) in this area (light spectrum perception). Her e- mail is: twidowski@aps.uoguelph.ca DebMcW > Date sent: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:47:52 +0100 > From: Chris Rutt > Subject: Visual spectrum in birds?? > To: Applied Ethology List > Not sure that this is strictly ethology, but I feel sure someone > here can assist. > > With the CCTV faciltiy, my Agapornis taranta have been observed > feeding chicks from day old for approximately 14 days, in what > appears to be total darkness. (Standard nestbox in unlighted room > at night) > > Other observers have confirmed this behaviour with other > Agapornid species so I am wondering how they cope with turning > the chick onto its back and locating the chicks' beaks etc.!!! > > Can anyone advise whether birds (specifically parrotlike, more > specifically > Agapornis) can see further into the red end of the spectrum than > humans? It is > often reported that many birds, including parrotlike, can > perceive a lot further into the ultra-violet end. > > Any help would be much appreciated. > > Best wishes > > Chris (UK) > rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk > http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk > http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/zoo.htm > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 20-MAY-1999 09:17:52.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Visual spectrum in birds?? Hi Chris! > I should have added in my initial post that when the camera was > first installed in the nest box the hen appeared to react to > activation of the camera. I cannot myself detect any audible or Does the camera have a light emitting diode (LED)? DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" 20-MAY-1999 10:15:44.69 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Morning sickness (BTW: "morning sickness" can last from morning to night!) I would like to put my question more precisely: What is the adaptive value of this phenomenon? Or is it a kind of degeneration of the human species? Women who have everything to eat, have a warm and comfortable house, have no hard work, no stress at all - they get sick because of some physiological changes in their body. There should be some selection pressure against this kind of sickness because certainly some women decide not to have another baby because of this really very troublesome time which may last for many months. So it should have been eliminated by the last 10 000 years. But probably it appeared only during this time. Do primates have similar problems? Is there any positive effect which might balance the disadvantage and so keep some medium frequency of vomiters in the population? Is this a crazy idea? I have never found that my cows or mares had such problems. But may be their discomfort was only a slight one and I couldn't realize it. Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--¬_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) ¬ ¬ ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 20-MAY-1999 11:11:50.04 To: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "'HANS HAUSSMANN'" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Morning sickness I think there was some theorising about morning sickness and defences = against toxins over on the evolutionary psychology websites. (Jim Brody would = set us right on this matter). Sharon :-) I put it rather badly in haste. The curious correlation = which we may have imagined we glimpsed, was that the girls (Beckie, Alison and = Beckies sister) had no sickness but were evilly bad tempered during pregnancy.=20 My wife Jill, Elizabeth and Sarah had disagreeable vomiting but were = calm, serene even, once past the unpleasantness (which I did not envy them!) For my part I had both cramps and heartburn during the pregnancy. After my son was born I had a few "panics" when I would grip the = steering wheel and hit the brakes thinking "Baby!". My staff talked me through this = phase, I had no sickness. I did not share Jill's craving for Toblerone = chocolate bars. Some sort of oppositional chemistry might be set up to these events = which ameliorates matters in the subsequent dozen pregnancies. Of course suckling the infants for up to four years of age and still getting = pregnant often enough to produce a large brood must alter the evolutionary = perspective. Diet and breeding ages must have some input. What is the broader = anthropological view? I was taught that horses were not very good at vomiting. Cows don't do = much else in one sense :-) -----Original Message----- From: HANS HAUSSMANN [SMTP:haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de] Sent: 20 May 1999 19:10 To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Morning sickness (BTW: "morning sickness" can last from morning to night!) I would like to put my question more precisely: What is the adaptive value of this phenomenon? Or is it a kind of=20 degeneration of the human species? Women who have everything to eat, = have a warm and comfortable house, have no hard work, no stress at all - they get sick because of some physiological changes in their body. There should be some selection pressure against this kind of sickness because certainly some women decide not to have another baby because of this really very troublesome time which may last for many months. So it should have been eliminated by the last 10 000 years. But probably it appeared only during this time. Do primates have similar problems? Is there any positive effect which might balance the disadvantage and so keep some medium frequency of vomiters in the population? Is this a = crazy idea? I have never found that my cows or mares had such problems. But may be their discomfort was only a slight one and I couldn't realize it. Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--=AC_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal = Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) =AC =AC ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 = Stuttgart From: IN%"arioncr@mindspring.com" "Chris Redenbach" 20-MAY-1999 11:20:37.90 To: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Re:Morning sickness Many, if not most (I have no data other than anecdotal), dogs go "off their feed" during the third week after having been bred. This reluctance to eat is often accompanied by vomiting once hunger drives the dog to eat anyway. I do not know if it is stronger at any particular time of day. Nor do I know if the dogs who don't seem to exhibit this would do so if offered a wider variety of foods, some of which may trigger this behavior. Chris Redenbach At 10:31 AM 05/20/1999 +0000, you wrote: > >Pregnant women in many cases vomit. What is the explanation of this >phenomenon? Does it exist in other mammals too? > > > Regards > ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de > ,--=AC_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding > ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) > ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany > ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 > _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) > =AC =AC ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw > ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart > > Chris =20 =20 From: IN%"arioncr@mindspring.com" "Chris Redenbach" 20-MAY-1999 11:21:08.58 To: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Morning sickness Margie Profet wrote "Pregnancy Sickness as Adaptation: A Deterrent to Maternal Ingestion of Teratogens" It is included in The Adapted Mind, the compilation of works on evolutionary psychology edited by Jerome Barkow, Leda Cosmides adn John Tooby, published by Oxford U P in 1992. She states in her conclusion: "The timing of pregnancy sickness coincides with organogenesis, the period of maximum embryonic susceptibility to teratogens; women with pregnancy sickness have averison to foods with high concentrations of plant toxins, such as coffee and vegetables; and olfactory sensitivity becomes hyperacute during the period of pregnancy sickness, enabling better detection of toxins in foods." Later she says: "Humans, however, appear to face more intense selection pressures for preganancy sickness than any other mammal because they exploit a vast array of different plants and plant parts." Then she claims that the advent of cooking in the Pleistocene increased the range of plants that could be utilized, creating more exposure to toxins, and may have also created some added toxicities in plants that were safer when eaten raw. Regarding herbivores she says: "Herbivores with very specialized diets experience much weaker selection pressures for pregnancy sickness, both because they are exceptionally well adapted to handle the toxins of their narrow food niches and because they would be unlikely to specialize in foods that are teratogenic for their species." No doubt there is more recent study on these issues.=20 Chris Redenbach At 06:10 PM 05/20/1999 +0000, you wrote: >(BTW: "morning sickness" can last from morning to night!) > >I would like to put my question more precisely: > >What is the adaptive value of this phenomenon? Or is it a kind of=20 >degeneration of the human species? Women who have everything to eat, have >a warm and comfortable house, have no hard work, no stress at all - they >get sick because of some physiological changes in their body. > >There should be some selection pressure against this kind of sickness >because certainly some women decide not to have another baby because of >this really very troublesome time which may last for many months. So it >should have been eliminated by the last 10 000 years. But probably it >appeared only during this time. Do primates have similar problems? > >Is there any positive effect which might balance the disadvantage and so >keep some medium frequency of vomiters in the population? Is this a crazy >idea? > >I have never found that my cows or mares had such problems. But may be >their discomfort was only a slight one and I couldn't realize it. > > > > Regards > ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de > ,--=AC_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding > ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) > ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany > ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 > _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) > =AC =AC ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw > ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart > > Chris =20 =20 From: IN%"emily.patterson-kane@vuw.ac.nz" "Emily G Patterson-Kane" 20-MAY-1999 15:30:10.08 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Morning sickness >(BTW: "morning sickness" can last from morning to night!) > >I would like to put my question more precisely: > >What is the adaptive value of this phenomenon? Or is it a kind of >degeneration of the human species? Women who have everything to eat, have >a warm and comfortable house, have no hard work, no stress at all - they >get sick because of some physiological changes in their body. One can only assume that this is an emergent property of a system which is, overall, advantagous. ie the price we pay for some linked benefit. There really isn't any conceivable advantage... E From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 20-MAY-1999 18:51:01.61 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Visual spectrum in birds?? On Thu, 20 May 1999, Chris wrote (but I missed the original message): > >> I should have added in my initial post that when the camera was >> first installed in the nest box the hen appeared to react to >> activation of the camera. I cannot myself detect any audible or Hey, even I can hear the whine of many electronic items--TVs, video monitors, VCRs, etc. . If the camera is anywhere in the vicinity, I'd be surprised if she COULDN'T hear it. Ione ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/ETDR.html East Tennessee Doberman Rescue ================================================== Life is what happens when you're planning on something else. From: IN%"emily.patterson-kane@vuw.ac.nz" "Emily G Patterson-Kane" 20-MAY-1999 19:09:23.74 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Visual spectrum in birds?? >On Thu, 20 May 1999, Chris wrote (but I missed the original message): > >> >>> I should have added in my initial post that when the camera was >>> first installed in the nest box the hen appeared to react to >>> activation of the camera. I cannot myself detect any audible or > >Hey, even I can hear the whine of many electronic items--TVs, video >monitors, VCRs, etc. . If the camera is anywhere in the vicinity, I'd be >surprised if she COULDN'T hear it. With birds UV is a more obvious visual choice... not sure why/how a camera would emit it but many bird species can see it (chicken etc)