From: IN%"drjacquiley@msn.com" "Jacqui Ley" 15-MAY-2007 23:13:48.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents

Hi List,

I agree very strongly with Debra's post. For many people the only people they contact about their animal is the vet. I am involved in an animal welfare course that comes out of a psychology department. This rankles some vets but I have found it to be very good as it opens veterinary eyes to other ways of seeing things and other approaches. Vets as a group are uniquely placed to spread information to individuals who can start to make changes in homes and on farms. I don't believe vets are the only people who can do this but we are in a good position to work for animal welfare.

Regards

Jacqui Ley

Animal Behaviour Consultations

Victoria AUSTRALIA




Dr. Jacqui Ley

Animal Behaviour Consultations  
144 Dalgetty Rd BEAUMARIS VIC 3193
0410 327 463       
drjacquiley@msn.com
From: DebHdvm@aol.com
Reply-To: applied-ethology@usask.ca
To: applied-ethology@usask.ca
Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 14:12:57 -0400 (EDT)

I have enjoyed this collegial discussion and would like to add another thought. As a veterinarian for over 30 years I have seen the change in both attitudes and knowledge of pet owners. Very few if any know anyone who has lived on a farm let alone know anything about farm animals. They also know very little about animal behavior in general or animal welfare. As veterinarians we come in contact with people every day and can use that opportunity to enlighten them on the animal welfare issues.  Not only must animal welfare be addressed from all the professional disciplines mentioned in the other posts, but we must also make the public aware of what the term means, how it affects them, their pets and their lives.  Veterinarians are out in the community and can help make that happen.
 
Best regards,
 
Debra F. Horwitz, DVM DACVB
Veterinary Behavior Consultations
11469 Olive Blvd. #254
St. Louis, MO 63141-7108
Phone and fax: 314-567-4131
e-mail: DebHdvm@aol.com



See what's free at AOL.com.


Your Future Starts Here. Dream it? Then be it! Find it at www.seek.com.au From: IN%"s.berry@elsevier.com" "Berry, Suzanne SB (ELS-LON)" 16-MAY-2007 02:35:52.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" "applied-ethology network" CC: Subj: Animals and Us - a morning exploring the human-animal relationship - Surrey, UK June 9th 2007 - Animals and Us: a morning with Cara Williams and the = Wolves and Humans Foundation=20 Date: June 9th 2007 (note this has changed from the original date = planned) Venue: Woking College, Woking, Surrey. In easy reach of the M25, A3, M3 = and M4 and in walking distance from Woking railway station (20 minutes = by train from London Waterloo). Time: 9.45am-1.30pm (to be confirmed). This event will consist of two talks: 1) Pets and humans: This talk will involve a discussion into why it is = important to consider the ethology and behavioural needs of wild animal = counterparts in their natural habitat if we are to ensure a greater = understanding of the welfare of our domestic animals. The aim is to = propose why such a scientific approach is essential to achieving this, = rather than relying on the more common anthropomorphic approach to = domestic animals needs. The talk will include references to dogs, cats, = horses and small exotics such as rabbits and tortoises. Speaker: Cara Williams MA (currently undertaking PhD in research = Psychology, specialising in neuropsychology): Deputy Manager and = lecturer at the Natural Animal Centre Wales - A specialist Animal = Behaviour Centre. 2) Wolves and humans: The Wolves and Humans Foundation is a charity = dedicated to helping conservation of wolves, as well as bears and lynx, = by finding solutions to the problems of living alongside people, through = practical measures, education and research. Troy Bennett will be talking = about the return of the wolf in France and the effect it had (and = continues to have) on the farming community there. Tickets available now. =A315.00 only available in advance. =A312 = concessions or if you volunteer or work for an animal-related charity. = Please give details of your connection to a charity to qualify for this = reduced ticket price. Send cheque payable to 'Learning About Animals' to Suzanne Rogers, = Learning About Animals, 14 Alexandra Road, Addlestone, Surrey, KT15 2PE. = Please enclose your contact details (e-mail ideally to save trees) so = I can send confirmation and directions. Suzanne Learning About Animals www.learningaboutanimals.co.uk=20 This email is from Elsevier Limited, a company registered in England and = Wales with company number 1982084, whose registered office is The Boulevard, Langford Lane, Kidlington, Oxfo= rd, OX5 1GB, United Kingdom. From: IN%"siegford@msu.edu" "Janice M Siegford" 16-MAY-2007 07:40:16.55 To: IN%"jlanier@hsi.org" "Jennifer Lanier" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Hi Jennifer, I wouldn't say that "WE" (or at least me personally) value DVMs over all others as welfare agents, but that the decision may not be ours to make in terms of how the public and policy makers already view vets versus other titles/experiences. If we can't changet that viewpoint we should at least educate the vets to the extent that they are aware of what they know and don't know and which experts to turn to when they need to know more. The OIE statement is upsetting as is the statement that Stine had pointed out earlier which both make vets omniscient regarding animals. If vets are the only ones with knowledge of animals, perhaps all of us from animal science, zoology, ethology, and fish and wildflife types of disciplines should just pack it in! :-) But of course, I don't believe that and don't think that most vets believe that. In the end, I agree with your final paragraph whole-heartedly, but realize that we must sometimes account for the fact that not everyone is as egalitarian and that we must account for current misconceptions or prejudices as we work to improve animal welfare with or without a DVM behind our names! Best, Janice Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB Research Assistant Professor Animal Behavior and Welfare Group 1287C Anthony Hall Department of Animal Science Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 517-432-8212 office 517-432-1396 lab 517-353-1699 fax From: IN%"GGolab@avma.org" "Dr. Gail Golab" 16-MAY-2007 08:53:35.40 To: IN%"siegford@msu.edu" "Janice M Siegford", IN%"jlanier@hsi.org" "Jennifer Lanier" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents As per OIE efforts...When evaluating OIE statements regarding animal welfare, I think it is important to understand the historical origin and objectives of that organization. The objectives of the OIE are identified (by the organization) as follows: 1) To ensure transparency in the global animal disease situation 2) To collect, analyze, and disseminate veterinary scientific information 3) To provide expertise and encourage international solidarity in the control of animal diseases 4) Within its mandate under the WTO SPS Agreement, to safeguard world trade by publishing health standards for international trade in animals and animal products 5) To improve the legal framework and resources of national veterinary services And their new mandate... 6) To provide a better guarantee of food of animal origin and to promote animal welfare through a science-based approach. According to the OIE Website..."Since it was created, the OIE has played a key role in its capacity as the sole international reference organization for animal health, enjoying established international recognition and benefiting from direct collaboration with the Veterinary Services of all its Member Countries. As a mark of the close relationship between animal health and animal welfare, the OIE had become, at the request of its Member Countries, the leading international organization for animal welfare." In terms of inclusion, I think it is worth noting that the Permanent Animal Welfare Working Group of the OIE includes non-veterinarians as well as veterinarians. Its 2004 Global Conference on Animal Welfare also included both veterinarians and non-veterinarians as speakers and participants, as do the ad hoc groups that have been formed to work on specific issues of animal welfare interest. Gail Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM Associate Director, Animal Welfare AVMA -----Original Message----- From: Janice M Siegford [mailto:siegford@msu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 8:40 AM To: Jennifer Lanier Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents Hi Jennifer, I wouldn't say that "WE" (or at least me personally) value DVMs over all others as welfare agents, but that the decision may not be ours to make in terms of how the public and policy makers already view vets versus other titles/experiences. If we can't changet that viewpoint we should at least educate the vets to the extent that they are aware of what they know and don't know and which experts to turn to when they need to know more. The OIE statement is upsetting as is the statement that Stine had pointed out earlier which both make vets omniscient regarding animals. If vets are the only ones with knowledge of animals, perhaps all of us from animal science, zoology, ethology, and fish and wildflife types of disciplines should just pack it in! :-) But of course, I don't believe that and don't think that most vets believe that. In the end, I agree with your final paragraph whole-heartedly, but realize that we must sometimes account for the fact that not everyone is as egalitarian and that we must account for current misconceptions or prejudices as we work to improve animal welfare with or without a DVM behind our names! Best, Janice Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB Research Assistant Professor Animal Behavior and Welfare Group 1287C Anthony Hall Department of Animal Science Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 517-432-8212 office 517-432-1396 lab 517-353-1699 fax From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" 16-MAY-2007 10:28:28.85 To: IN%"GGolab@avma.org" "Dr. Gail Golab", IN%"siegford@msu.edu" "Janice M Siegford", IN%"jlanier@hsi.org" "Jennifer Lanier" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Gail and all- Where there's smoke, there's fire- I share concerns in this matter with Janice Siegford- Unless OIE and other such entitites make an intentional affirmative effort to include all of the pertinent disciplines -- up and down the line in the organization -- they will be lopsided bureaucracies and the animals' interests will not receive the stewardship they deserve- Affirmative collegiality is what's needed- Moreover, with specific regard to OIE, US interests are not now being well-represented in its processes- We are asleep at the switch- And the press releases of both OIE and EU regarding the spreading of their brand of animal-welfare regulations all over the world, coupled with their talk of trade barriers and the like. should be alarming to industries all over the world, not to mention animal-welfare scientists and agents- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 09:53:15 -0500 >From: "Dr. Gail Golab" >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: Janice M Siegford , Jennifer Lanier >Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca > >As per OIE efforts...When evaluating OIE statements regarding animal >welfare, I think it is important to understand the historical origin and >objectives of that organization. > >The objectives of the OIE are identified (by the organization) as >follows: >1) To ensure transparency in the global animal disease situation >2) To collect, analyze, and disseminate veterinary scientific >information >3) To provide expertise and encourage international solidarity in the >control of animal diseases >4) Within its mandate under the WTO SPS Agreement, to safeguard world >trade by publishing health standards for international trade in animals >and animal products >5) To improve the legal framework and resources of national veterinary >services >And their new mandate... >6) To provide a better guarantee of food of animal origin and to promote >animal welfare through a science-based approach. > >According to the OIE Website..."Since it was created, the OIE has played >a key role in its capacity as the sole international reference >organization for animal health, enjoying established international >recognition and benefiting from direct collaboration with the Veterinary >Services of all its Member Countries. As a mark of the close >relationship between animal health and animal welfare, the OIE had >become, at the request of its Member Countries, the leading >international organization for animal welfare." > >In terms of inclusion, I think it is worth noting that the Permanent >Animal Welfare Working Group of the OIE includes non-veterinarians as >well as veterinarians. Its 2004 Global Conference on Animal Welfare also >included both veterinarians and non-veterinarians as speakers and >participants, as do the ad hoc groups that have been formed to work on >specific issues of animal welfare interest. > >Gail > >Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM >Associate Director, Animal Welfare >AVMA > >-----Original Message----- >From: Janice M Siegford [mailto:siegford@msu.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 8:40 AM >To: Jennifer Lanier >Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca >Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents > >Hi Jennifer, >I wouldn't say that "WE" (or at least me personally) value DVMs over all > >others as welfare agents, but that the decision may not be ours to make >in >terms of how the public and policy makers already view vets versus other > >titles/experiences. > >If we can't changet that viewpoint we should at least educate the vets >to >the extent that they are aware of what they know and don't know and >which >experts to turn to when they need to know more. > >The OIE statement is upsetting as is the statement that Stine had >pointed >out earlier which both make vets omniscient regarding animals. If vets >are >the only ones with knowledge of animals, perhaps all of us from animal >science, zoology, ethology, and fish and wildflife types of disciplines >should just pack it in! :-) But of course, I don't believe that and >don't >think that most vets believe that. > >In the end, I agree with your final paragraph whole-heartedly, but >realize >that we must sometimes account for the fact that not everyone is as >egalitarian and that we must account for current misconceptions or >prejudices as we work to improve animal welfare with or without a DVM >behind >our names! > >Best, > >Janice > >Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB >Research Assistant Professor >Animal Behavior and Welfare Group >1287C Anthony Hall >Department of Animal Science >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >517-432-8212 office >517-432-1396 lab >517-353-1699 fax > > > From: IN%"GGolab@avma.org" "Dr. Gail Golab" 16-MAY-2007 11:08:53.03 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu", IN%"siegford@msu.edu" "Janice M Siegford", IN%"jlanier@hsi.org" "Jennifer Lanier" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Hi Stan and all, I guess my impression is that the OIE has been fairly inclusive of nonveterinarians in their guidelines development process (i.e., they included nonveterinarians at the top of their animal welfare effort [on the Permanent Working Group] and down through their ad hoc groups tackling various specific issues). Both veterinarians and PhDs have been represented on many of their committees, animal welfare-related and otherwise. As regards representation of US versus other nations' interests with respect to OIE policy, I think that really is a separate issue from the one we are currently discussing? I don't see that as being directly related to whether both veterinarians and nonveterinarians have contributed to the end result. Gail Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM Associate Director, Animal Welfare AVMA -----Original Message----- From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:28 AM To: Dr. Gail Golab; Janice M Siegford; Jennifer Lanier Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Gail and all- Where there's smoke, there's fire- I share concerns in this matter with Janice Siegford- Unless OIE and other such entitites make an intentional affirmative effort to include all of the pertinent disciplines -- up and down the line in the organization -- they will be lopsided bureaucracies and the animals' interests will not receive the stewardship they deserve- Affirmative collegiality is what's needed- Moreover, with specific regard to OIE, US interests are not now being well-represented in its processes- We are asleep at the switch- And the press releases of both OIE and EU regarding the spreading of their brand of animal-welfare regulations all over the world, coupled with their talk of trade barriers and the like. should be alarming to industries all over the world, not to mention animal-welfare scientists and agents- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 09:53:15 -0500 >From: "Dr. Gail Golab" >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: Janice M Siegford , Jennifer Lanier >Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca > >As per OIE efforts...When evaluating OIE statements regarding animal >welfare, I think it is important to understand the historical origin and >objectives of that organization. > >The objectives of the OIE are identified (by the organization) as >follows: >1) To ensure transparency in the global animal disease situation >2) To collect, analyze, and disseminate veterinary scientific >information >3) To provide expertise and encourage international solidarity in the >control of animal diseases >4) Within its mandate under the WTO SPS Agreement, to safeguard world >trade by publishing health standards for international trade in animals >and animal products >5) To improve the legal framework and resources of national veterinary >services >And their new mandate... >6) To provide a better guarantee of food of animal origin and to promote >animal welfare through a science-based approach. > >According to the OIE Website..."Since it was created, the OIE has played >a key role in its capacity as the sole international reference >organization for animal health, enjoying established international >recognition and benefiting from direct collaboration with the Veterinary >Services of all its Member Countries. As a mark of the close >relationship between animal health and animal welfare, the OIE had >become, at the request of its Member Countries, the leading >international organization for animal welfare." > >In terms of inclusion, I think it is worth noting that the Permanent >Animal Welfare Working Group of the OIE includes non-veterinarians as >well as veterinarians. Its 2004 Global Conference on Animal Welfare also >included both veterinarians and non-veterinarians as speakers and >participants, as do the ad hoc groups that have been formed to work on >specific issues of animal welfare interest. > >Gail > >Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM >Associate Director, Animal Welfare >AVMA > >-----Original Message----- >From: Janice M Siegford [mailto:siegford@msu.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 8:40 AM >To: Jennifer Lanier >Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca >Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents > >Hi Jennifer, >I wouldn't say that "WE" (or at least me personally) value DVMs over all > >others as welfare agents, but that the decision may not be ours to make >in >terms of how the public and policy makers already view vets versus other > >titles/experiences. > >If we can't changet that viewpoint we should at least educate the vets >to >the extent that they are aware of what they know and don't know and >which >experts to turn to when they need to know more. > >The OIE statement is upsetting as is the statement that Stine had >pointed >out earlier which both make vets omniscient regarding animals. If vets >are >the only ones with knowledge of animals, perhaps all of us from animal >science, zoology, ethology, and fish and wildflife types of disciplines >should just pack it in! :-) But of course, I don't believe that and >don't >think that most vets believe that. > >In the end, I agree with your final paragraph whole-heartedly, but >realize >that we must sometimes account for the fact that not everyone is as >egalitarian and that we must account for current misconceptions or >prejudices as we work to improve animal welfare with or without a DVM >behind >our names! > >Best, > >Janice > >Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB >Research Assistant Professor >Animal Behavior and Welfare Group >1287C Anthony Hall >Department of Animal Science >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >517-432-8212 office >517-432-1396 lab >517-353-1699 fax > > > From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" 16-MAY-2007 11:16:52.01 To: IN%"GGolab@avma.org" "Dr. Gail Golab", IN%"siegford@msu.edu" "Janice M Siegford", IN%"jlanier@hsi.org" "Jennifer Lanier" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Gail and others- Thanks for expanding the discussion, Gail- You are correct: My concern mainly does have to do with the virtual lack of meaningful US input into OIE's animal-welfare process- I realize that the veterinarians and the non-veterinarian animal-welfare scientists in Europe have their own disagreements, but many of us US animal-welfare scientists have disagremeents with both of those groups- Alas, our oars are not in that important water- -Stan Curtis Department of Animal Sciences Unviersity of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ---- Original message ---- >Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 12:08:36 -0500 >From: "Dr. Gail Golab" >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: , "Janice M Siegford" , "Jennifer Lanier" >Cc: > >Hi Stan and all, > >I guess my impression is that the OIE has been fairly inclusive of >nonveterinarians in their guidelines development process (i.e., they >included nonveterinarians at the top of their animal welfare effort [on >the Permanent Working Group] and down through their ad hoc groups >tackling various specific issues). Both veterinarians and PhDs have been >represented on many of their committees, animal welfare-related and >otherwise. > >As regards representation of US versus other nations' interests with >respect to OIE policy, I think that really is a separate issue from the >one we are currently discussing? I don't see that as being directly >related to whether both veterinarians and nonveterinarians have >contributed to the end result. > >Gail > >Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM >Associate Director, Animal Welfare >AVMA > >-----Original Message----- >From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:28 AM >To: Dr. Gail Golab; Janice M Siegford; Jennifer Lanier >Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > >Gail and all- > >Where there's smoke, there's fire- I share concerns in this matter with >Janice Siegford- Unless OIE and other such entitites make an >intentional affirmative effort to include all of the pertinent >disciplines -- up and down the line in the organization -- they will be >lopsided bureaucracies and the animals' interests will not receive the >stewardship they deserve- Affirmative collegiality is what's needed- >Moreover, with specific regard to OIE, US interests are not now being >well-represented in its processes- We are asleep at the switch- And >the press releases of both OIE and EU regarding the spreading of their >brand of animal-welfare regulations all over the world, coupled with >their talk of trade barriers and the like. should be alarming to >industries all over the world, not to mention animal-welfare scientists >and agents- > >-Stan Curtis >Department of Animal Sciences >University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > > > > > >---- Original message ---- >>Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 09:53:15 -0500 >>From: "Dr. Gail Golab" >>Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >>To: Janice M Siegford , Jennifer Lanier > >>Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca >> >>As per OIE efforts...When evaluating OIE statements regarding animal >>welfare, I think it is important to understand the historical origin >and >>objectives of that organization. >> >>The objectives of the OIE are identified (by the organization) as >>follows: > >>1) To ensure transparency in the global animal disease situation >>2) To collect, analyze, and disseminate veterinary scientific >>information >>3) To provide expertise and encourage international solidarity in the >>control of animal diseases >>4) Within its mandate under the WTO SPS Agreement, to safeguard world >>trade by publishing health standards for international trade in animals >>and animal products >>5) To improve the legal framework and resources of national veterinary >>services >>And their new mandate... >>6) To provide a better guarantee of food of animal origin and to >promote >>animal welfare through a science-based approach. >> >>According to the OIE Website..."Since it was created, the OIE has >played >>a key role in its capacity as the sole international reference >>organization for animal health, enjoying established international >>recognition and benefiting from direct collaboration with the >Veterinary >>Services of all its Member Countries. As a mark of the close >>relationship between animal health and animal welfare, the OIE had >>become, at the request of its Member Countries, the leading >>international organization for animal welfare." >> >>In terms of inclusion, I think it is worth noting that the Permanent >>Animal Welfare Working Group of the OIE includes non-veterinarians as >>well as veterinarians. Its 2004 Global Conference on Animal Welfare >also >>included both veterinarians and non-veterinarians as speakers and >>participants, as do the ad hoc groups that have been formed to work on >>specific issues of animal welfare interest. >> >>Gail >> >>Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM >>Associate Director, Animal Welfare >>AVMA >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Janice M Siegford [mailto:siegford@msu.edu] >>Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 8:40 AM >>To: Jennifer Lanier >>Cc: applied-ethology@usask.ca >>Subject: Re: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> >>Hi Jennifer, >>I wouldn't say that "WE" (or at least me personally) value DVMs over >all >> >>others as welfare agents, but that the decision may not be ours to make >>in >>terms of how the public and policy makers already view vets versus >other >> >>titles/experiences. >> >>If we can't changet that viewpoint we should at least educate the vets >>to >>the extent that they are aware of what they know and don't know and >>which >>experts to turn to when they need to know more. >> >>The OIE statement is upsetting as is the statement that Stine had >>pointed >>out earlier which both make vets omniscient regarding animals. If vets >>are >>the only ones with knowledge of animals, perhaps all of us from animal >>science, zoology, ethology, and fish and wildflife types of disciplines > >>should just pack it in! :-) But of course, I don't believe that and >>don't >>think that most vets believe that. >> >>In the end, I agree with your final paragraph whole-heartedly, but >>realize >>that we must sometimes account for the fact that not everyone is as >>egalitarian and that we must account for current misconceptions or >>prejudices as we work to improve animal welfare with or without a DVM >>behind >>our names! >> >>Best, >> >>Janice >> >>Janice Siegford, MS, PhD, CAAAB >>Research Assistant Professor >>Animal Behavior and Welfare Group >>1287C Anthony Hall >>Department of Animal Science >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824 >>517-432-8212 office >>517-432-1396 lab >>517-353-1699 fax >> >> >> From: IN%"rbogle@sonic.net" "Rick Bogle" 16-MAY-2007 15:00:08.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents I can speak only to the US situation. All facilities using species covered under the Animal Welfare Act are required to have an animal care and use committee (ACUC, IACUC). The Act stipulates that the committee must include a veterinarian. Facilities using any vertebrate species and receiving federal funds must have an Assurance on file with the PHS stating that all vertebrate use will comply with the Guide for the Care and Use of Animals in Research (the Guide). The Guide seems to duplicate the Act's requirements when it come to the make up of an oversight committee. (I'm unsure whether vertebrate is accurate. I don't have any knowledge of welfare requirements in either the Act or the Guide regarding, say, the cephalapods. Rick Bogle Madison, Wisconsin > -----Original Message----- > From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 2:29 PM > To: Rick Bogle; applied-ethology@usask.ca > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > > > > > Rick Bogle- > > I thought USPHS policy was that it is "statutory" requirement > only if an entity wishes to be eligible for federal funding of > its projects- As most if not all universities wish to be eligible > for fedeal funding, it is, "de facto", a requirement- But I may > stand to be corrected . . . "it's been a while"- > > -Stan Curtis > Department of Animal Sciences > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > > > > ---- Original message ---- > >Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:13:31 -0500 > >From: Rick Bogle > >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > > > >"There is a de facto requirement ..." I believe this is statutory. > > > >Rick Bogle > >Madison, WI > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] > >> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 7:25 PM > >> To: Jennifer Lanier; Dr. Gail Golab; applied-ethology@usask.ca > >> Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Yes, Jennifer, there have a few examples of institutions in the > >> USA where the bureaucrat in charge of regulatory enforcement on > >> the animal-care front is not a veterinarian- The University of > >> Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and The Pennsylvania State > >> University come to mind- There is a de facto requirement that > >> institutional animal care committees have in its membership at > >> least one veterinarian, but that is the only position in an > >> institution's enforcement structure that requires a veterinarian- > >> I do still agree with Ray Stricklin that it will be mostly those > >> educated and trained as veterinarians as opposed to scientists > >> without veterinary study who will be attracted to the > >> bureaucracy- At the same time, I do agree with Jennifer's > >> concern that limiting a call for pplicants to veterinarians well > >> might "send a message that DVMs are the appropriate persons for > >> such positions"- > >> > >> Who is going to take on the job of clearing up this confusion > >> with the general public?- > >> > >> -Stan Curtis > >> Department of Animla Sciecnes > >> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > >> > >> > >> ---- Original message ---- > >> >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:42:43 -0400 > >> >From: Jennifer Lanier > >> >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > >> >To: "Dr. Gail Golab" , applied-ethology@usask.ca > >> > > >> > Point taken. I was thinking in a small arena of > >> > those with hands-on experience and those without. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > As a talking point, it is interesting that Ray is > >> > looking for a DVM to fill the position of director > >> > of animal care. The exclusion of PhD or others as > >> > Ray would have preferred would limit the applicant > >> > base as well as send a message that DVMs are the > >> > appropriate persons for such positions. Job > >> > requirements such as this say that the title held is > >> > of more value than the experiences and background. > >> > Experience is important when applications are up for > >> > consideration. But the qualification for the > >> > position clearly implies that PhDs and other non-DVM > >> > need not apply as they are not considered to be > >> > effective welfare agents at this level. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Granted I do not have the entire job description, so > >> > I am basing this off of the small amount of > >> > information that Ray posted. And I am not attacking > >> > Ray or the U of Maryland, but rather hoping to > >> > further explore our views of who are the appropriate > >> > people to be welfare agents. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Ray's post: > >> > > >> > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the > >> > > >> > > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire > >> > a > >> > > >> > > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > >> > > >> > > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > >> > > >> > > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job > >> > description > >> > > >> > > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM > >> > diplomat > >> > > >> > > are preferred." > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Jennifer > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. > >> > > >> > Director of Scientific Programs > >> > > >> > Humane Society International - Trade > >> > > >> > 2100 L St. NW > >> > > >> > Washington, DC 20037 USA > >> > > >> > jlanier@hsi.org > >> > > >> > (240) 888 1217 cell > >> > > >> > (202) 778 6148 > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > From: Dr. Gail Golab [mailto:GGolab@avma.org] > >> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 6:14 PM > >> > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca; securtis@uiuc.edu > >> > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi Jennifer, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > You knew it was going to happen ...I have to > >> > disagree with your assumption that veterinarians > >> > fall into two categories. In fact, there are a > >> > number of practicing veterinarians who regularly > >> > deal with policy issues; there are other full-time > >> > veterinarian "bureaucrats" who maintain their > >> > licenses and practice on the side; and then there > >> > are those whose practice experiences (plus or minus > >> > academic expertise in specialty areas) are what got > >> > them into the bureaucratic positions in the first > >> > place. I would be very careful about assuming what a > >> > veterinarian is or is not doing, or has or has not > >> > done, unless you've personally examined their > >> > CV/resume'. We're a remarkably versatile group! > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Gail > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM > >> > > >> > Associate Director, Animal Welfare > >> > > >> > AVMA > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > From: Jennifer Lanier [mailto:jlanier@hsi.org] > >> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:55 PM > >> > To: securtis@uiuc.edu; applied-ethology@usask.ca > >> > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > If I get this wrong, feel free to correct me! There > >> > are two types of veterinarians, those who practice > >> > and those who don't (policy). Many of the > >> > veterinarians that I am seeing taking positions of > >> > authority have had no or little hands-on experience > >> > with animals after receiving their degree. > >> > Experience of veterinarians, PhDs, and self educated > >> > persons in all fields should enter the discussion of > >> > who are the welfare agents and who is considered for > >> > what type of post. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Jennifer > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. > >> > > >> > Director of Scientific Programs > >> > > >> > Humane Society International - Trade > >> > > >> > 2100 L St. NW > >> > > >> > Washington, DC 20037 USA > >> > > >> > jlanier@hsi.org > >> > > >> > (240) 888 1217 cell > >> > > >> > (202) 778 6148 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] > >> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 5:37 PM > >> > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > >> > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Ray Stricklin wrote: > >> > > >> > " . . . vets may well be better suited to jobs that > >> > have to do with enforcement of animal welfare policy > >> > procedures. However, when it comes to developing > >> > policy, I have long advocated the importance of > >> > having input and involvement from all parties." > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > I strongly subscribe to these notions of his- > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Perhaps veterinarian-bureaucrats serving in such > >> > positions ought to hold a better-descriptive title > >> > such as "director of regulatory enforcement -- > >> > animal care" or some such- > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -Stan Curtis > >> > > >> > Department of Animal Sciences > >> > > >> > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ---- Original message ---- > >> > > >> > >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:26:52 -0400 > >> > > >> > >From: Ray Stricklin > >> > > >> > >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents > >> > > >> > >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > Jennifer Lanier wrote: > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > In the minds of governments is welfare policy or > >> > > >> > > practice? ... > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > Jennifer and All, > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > I will not attempt to answer the above question > >> > in > >> > > >> > > relation to governments. But the posting is > >> > related > >> > > >> > > to some of my thoughts regarding my own > >> > > >> > > institution's officials, and these thoughts I > >> > did > >> > > >> > > not include in my previous posting. > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help > >> > the > >> > > >> > > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire > >> > a > >> > > >> > > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have > >> > > >> > > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or > >> > > >> > > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job > >> > description > >> > > >> > > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM > >> > diplomat > >> > > >> > > are preferred." > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > In truth, I believe that the number of PhDs who > >> > > >> > > could do the job is very, very small. And in > >> > > >> > > thinking about the work related to the position, > >> > I > >> > > >> > > am not so sure that there are very many PhDs who > >> > > >> > > would be both capable and also would want the > >> > type > >> > > >> > > of work required in this job. Maybe I am wrong > >> > about > >> > > >> > > this, but these thoughts did influence my > >> > previous > >> > > >> > > posting. Regardless, Jennifer's original posting > >> > > >> > > made me think about what might motivate a PhD > >> > versus > >> > > >> > > a DVM. And it also made me think about my own > >> > belief > >> > > >> > > that a DVM is more likely to be a better choice > >> > for > >> > > >> > > the position as director of animal care. > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > And to the point, my institutional officials - > >> > and > >> > > >> > > probably those of other universities - most > >> > > >> > > definitely view animal welfare as policy, at > >> > least > >> > > >> > > in relation to the animal care program. Thus, > >> > > >> > > because they see animal care as having to do > >> > with > >> > > >> > > policy, they believe a veterinarian is required > >> > > >> > > and/or better suited to the job; at least this > >> > is my > >> > > >> > > impression. Again, I do not totally disagree > >> > with > >> > > >> > > this viewpoint for in fact the role of the > >> > director > >> > > >> > > of animal care has largely to do with > >> > implementation > >> > > >> > > and documentation of policy. And because the PhD > >> > is > >> > > >> > > strictly a research degree and the DVM degree > >> > and > >> > > >> > > profession by its very nature involves more > >> > > >> > > regulation and enforcement, then vets may well > >> > be > >> > > >> > > better suited to jobs that have to do with > >> > > >> > > enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > However, when it comes to developing policy, I > >> > have > >> > > >> > > long advocated the importance of having input > >> > and > >> > > >> > > involvement from all parties. > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > Regards, > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > Ray Stricklin > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Interested in taking action online to help animals? > >> > Then join our online community and sign up for our > >> > Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Interested in taking action online to help animals? > >> > Then join our online community and sign up for our > >> > Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" 16-MAY-2007 18:30:13.58 To: IN%"rbogle@sonic.net" "Rick Bogle", IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Thanks- It's been a while, and the requirements have changed- -Stan Curtis ---- Original message ---- >Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 15:59:46 -0500 >From: Rick Bogle >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > >I can speak only to the US situation. All facilities using species covered >under the Animal Welfare Act are required to have an animal care and use >committee (ACUC, IACUC). The Act stipulates that the committee must include >a veterinarian. > >Facilities using any vertebrate species and receiving federal funds must >have an Assurance on file with the PHS stating that all vertebrate use will >comply with the Guide for the Care and Use of Animals in Research (the >Guide). The Guide seems to duplicate the Act's requirements when it come to >the make up of an oversight committee. > >(I'm unsure whether vertebrate is accurate. I don't have any knowledge of >welfare requirements in either the Act or the Guide regarding, say, the >cephalapods. > >Rick Bogle >Madison, Wisconsin > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] >> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 2:29 PM >> To: Rick Bogle; applied-ethology@usask.ca >> Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> >> >> >> >> Rick Bogle- >> >> I thought USPHS policy was that it is "statutory" requirement >> only if an entity wishes to be eligible for federal funding of >> its projects- As most if not all universities wish to be eligible >> for fedeal funding, it is, "de facto", a requirement- But I may >> stand to be corrected . . . "it's been a while"- >> >> -Stan Curtis >> Department of Animal Sciences >> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign >> >> >> >> ---- Original message ---- >> >Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:13:31 -0500 >> >From: Rick Bogle >> >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca >> > >> >"There is a de facto requirement ..." I believe this is statutory. >> > >> >Rick Bogle >> >Madison, WI >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] >> >> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 7:25 PM >> >> To: Jennifer Lanier; Dr. Gail Golab; applied-ethology@usask.ca >> >> Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes, Jennifer, there have a few examples of institutions in the >> >> USA where the bureaucrat in charge of regulatory enforcement on >> >> the animal-care front is not a veterinarian- The University of >> >> Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and The Pennsylvania State >> >> University come to mind- There is a de facto requirement that >> >> institutional animal care committees have in its membership at >> >> least one veterinarian, but that is the only position in an >> >> institution's enforcement structure that requires a veterinarian- >> >> I do still agree with Ray Stricklin that it will be mostly those >> >> educated and trained as veterinarians as opposed to scientists >> >> without veterinary study who will be attracted to the >> >> bureaucracy- At the same time, I do agree with Jennifer's >> >> concern that limiting a call for pplicants to veterinarians well >> >> might "send a message that DVMs are the appropriate persons for >> >> such positions"- >> >> >> >> Who is going to take on the job of clearing up this confusion >> >> with the general public?- >> >> >> >> -Stan Curtis >> >> Department of Animla Sciecnes >> >> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- Original message ---- >> >> >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:42:43 -0400 >> >> >From: Jennifer Lanier >> >> >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> >> >To: "Dr. Gail Golab" , applied-ethology@usask.ca >> >> > >> >> > Point taken. I was thinking in a small arena of >> >> > those with hands-on experience and those without. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > As a talking point, it is interesting that Ray is >> >> > looking for a DVM to fill the position of director >> >> > of animal care. The exclusion of PhD or others as >> >> > Ray would have preferred would limit the applicant >> >> > base as well as send a message that DVMs are the >> >> > appropriate persons for such positions. Job >> >> > requirements such as this say that the title held is >> >> > of more value than the experiences and background. >> >> > Experience is important when applications are up for >> >> > consideration. But the qualification for the >> >> > position clearly implies that PhDs and other non-DVM >> >> > need not apply as they are not considered to be >> >> > effective welfare agents at this level. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Granted I do not have the entire job description, so >> >> > I am basing this off of the small amount of >> >> > information that Ray posted. And I am not attacking >> >> > Ray or the U of Maryland, but rather hoping to >> >> > further explore our views of who are the appropriate >> >> > people to be welfare agents. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Ray's post: >> >> > >> >> > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help the >> >> > >> >> > > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire >> >> > a >> >> > >> >> > > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have >> >> > >> >> > > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or >> >> > >> >> > > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job >> >> > description >> >> > >> >> > > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM >> >> > diplomat >> >> > >> >> > > are preferred." >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Jennifer >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. >> >> > >> >> > Director of Scientific Programs >> >> > >> >> > Humane Society International - Trade >> >> > >> >> > 2100 L St. NW >> >> > >> >> > Washington, DC 20037 USA >> >> > >> >> > jlanier@hsi.org >> >> > >> >> > (240) 888 1217 cell >> >> > >> >> > (202) 778 6148 >> >> > >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------- >> >> > >> >> > From: Dr. Gail Golab [mailto:GGolab@avma.org] >> >> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 6:14 PM >> >> > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca; securtis@uiuc.edu >> >> > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Hi Jennifer, >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > You knew it was going to happen ...I have to >> >> > disagree with your assumption that veterinarians >> >> > fall into two categories. In fact, there are a >> >> > number of practicing veterinarians who regularly >> >> > deal with policy issues; there are other full-time >> >> > veterinarian "bureaucrats" who maintain their >> >> > licenses and practice on the side; and then there >> >> > are those whose practice experiences (plus or minus >> >> > academic expertise in specialty areas) are what got >> >> > them into the bureaucratic positions in the first >> >> > place. I would be very careful about assuming what a >> >> > veterinarian is or is not doing, or has or has not >> >> > done, unless you've personally examined their >> >> > CV/resume'. We're a remarkably versatile group! >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Gail >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM >> >> > >> >> > Associate Director, Animal Welfare >> >> > >> >> > AVMA >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------- >> >> > >> >> > From: Jennifer Lanier [mailto:jlanier@hsi.org] >> >> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:55 PM >> >> > To: securtis@uiuc.edu; applied-ethology@usask.ca >> >> > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > If I get this wrong, feel free to correct me! There >> >> > are two types of veterinarians, those who practice >> >> > and those who don't (policy). Many of the >> >> > veterinarians that I am seeing taking positions of >> >> > authority have had no or little hands-on experience >> >> > with animals after receiving their degree. >> >> > Experience of veterinarians, PhDs, and self educated >> >> > persons in all fields should enter the discussion of >> >> > who are the welfare agents and who is considered for >> >> > what type of post. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Jennifer >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. >> >> > >> >> > Director of Scientific Programs >> >> > >> >> > Humane Society International - Trade >> >> > >> >> > 2100 L St. NW >> >> > >> >> > Washington, DC 20037 USA >> >> > >> >> > jlanier@hsi.org >> >> > >> >> > (240) 888 1217 cell >> >> > >> >> > (202) 778 6148 >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Stanley Curtis [mailto:securtis@uiuc.edu] >> >> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 5:37 PM >> >> > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca >> >> > Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Ray Stricklin wrote: >> >> > >> >> > " . . . vets may well be better suited to jobs that >> >> > have to do with enforcement of animal welfare policy >> >> > procedures. However, when it comes to developing >> >> > policy, I have long advocated the importance of >> >> > having input and involvement from all parties." >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I strongly subscribe to these notions of his- >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Perhaps veterinarian-bureaucrats serving in such >> >> > positions ought to hold a better-descriptive title >> >> > such as "director of regulatory enforcement -- >> >> > animal care" or some such- >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -Stan Curtis >> >> > >> >> > Department of Animal Sciences >> >> > >> >> > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ---- Original message ---- >> >> > >> >> > >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:26:52 -0400 >> >> > >> >> > >From: Ray Stricklin >> >> > >> >> > >Subject: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents >> >> > >> >> > >To: applied-ethology@usask.ca >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > Jennifer Lanier wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > In the minds of governments is welfare policy or >> >> > >> >> > > practice? ... >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > ------------------------------- >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > Jennifer and All, >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > I will not attempt to answer the above question >> >> > in >> >> > >> >> > > relation to governments. But the posting is >> >> > related >> >> > >> >> > > to some of my thoughts regarding my own >> >> > >> >> > > institution's officials, and these thoughts I >> >> > did >> >> > >> >> > > not include in my previous posting. >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > Specifically, I am currently attempting to help >> >> > the >> >> > >> >> > > University of Maryland-College Park campus hire >> >> > a >> >> > >> >> > > director of animal care. The powers-that-be have >> >> > >> >> > > insisted that applicants must hold a DVM (or >> >> > >> >> > > equivalent). Whereas, I wanted the job >> >> > description >> >> > >> >> > > to read to the effect "DVM degree and ACLAM >> >> > diplomat >> >> > >> >> > > are preferred." >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > In truth, I believe that the number of PhDs who >> >> > >> >> > > could do the job is very, very small. And in >> >> > >> >> > > thinking about the work related to the position, >> >> > I >> >> > >> >> > > am not so sure that there are very many PhDs who >> >> > >> >> > > would be both capable and also would want the >> >> > type >> >> > >> >> > > of work required in this job. Maybe I am wrong >> >> > about >> >> > >> >> > > this, but these thoughts did influence my >> >> > previous >> >> > >> >> > > posting. Regardless, Jennifer's original posting >> >> > >> >> > > made me think about what might motivate a PhD >> >> > versus >> >> > >> >> > > a DVM. And it also made me think about my own >> >> > belief >> >> > >> >> > > that a DVM is more likely to be a better choice >> >> > for >> >> > >> >> > > the position as director of animal care. >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > And to the point, my institutional officials - >> >> > and >> >> > >> >> > > probably those of other universities - most >> >> > >> >> > > definitely view animal welfare as policy, at >> >> > least >> >> > >> >> > > in relation to the animal care program. Thus, >> >> > >> >> > > because they see animal care as having to do >> >> > with >> >> > >> >> > > policy, they believe a veterinarian is required >> >> > >> >> > > and/or better suited to the job; at least this >> >> > is my >> >> > >> >> > > impression. Again, I do not totally disagree >> >> > with >> >> > >> >> > > this viewpoint for in fact the role of the >> >> > director >> >> > >> >> > > of animal care has largely to do with >> >> > implementation >> >> > >> >> > > and documentation of policy. And because the PhD >> >> > is >> >> > >> >> > > strictly a research degree and the DVM degree >> >> > and >> >> > >> >> > > profession by its very nature involves more >> >> > >> >> > > regulation and enforcement, then vets may well >> >> > be >> >> > >> >> > > better suited to jobs that have to do with >> >> > >> >> > > enforcement of animal welfare policy procedures. >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > However, when it comes to developing policy, I >> >> > have >> >> > >> >> > > long advocated the importance of having input >> >> > and >> >> > >> >> > > involvement from all parties. >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > Regards, >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > Ray Stricklin >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Interested in taking action online to help animals? >> >> > Then join our online community and sign up for our >> >> > Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Interested in taking action online to help animals? >> >> > Then join our online community and sign up for our >> >> > Humane Action Network. Go to www.hsus.org/join . >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 17-MAY-2007 19:44:43.28 To: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinarians as welfare agents Stanley Curtis wrote: > Thank you, John- First, a typographical error, and, it turns out, > the spelling was incorrect anyway- > > My first-year rhetoric professor at DePauw University told us that he > didn't expect us to be perfect spellers but he did expect us to use > the dictionary- In the past, I've usually followed that advice . . . Well, that one was French . John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 23-MAY-2007 08:49:57.13 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: Do European farmers tether beef cattle? Hi, all, This is just a quick question about beef raising practices in Europe. Someone has asked me if tethering beef cattle is a practice of European farmers? If so, are they conventional or organic farms or both? Are they tethered indoors or outdoors? Is it a rare practice? A common practice? Only for certain breeds? What is the attitude toward beef tethering in European animal welfare law? Thank you! Marlene Halverson Animal Welfare Institute ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.